HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: BURGESSJ@GAR.UNION.EDU (BURGESS, JAMES)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Subject: HoF points for replacement players
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:10:00 GMT
Reply-To: "BURGESS, JAMES" <BURGESSJ@GAR.UNION.EDU>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Robert Rehbold suggests a very complicated process for allocating
rating points to standbys.  A similar debate has been going on in the
postal Dip world and I have proposed a much simpler solution.  I
reproduce it directly from my postal Diplomacy szine... written in TeX:

Buz Eddy...
how can his {\bf Maelstrom} ratings exclude STANDBYS!!!
For purely selfish reasons (all my best postal Dip has been as a
standby) I will have to slam poor Buz for his efforts!
For those of you with virgin ears, take a break.
Buz, dear sir, I can understand full well not wanting to rate
the standby who takes over a 17 center power and pilots it to
victory the same as a player who fights all the way through,
but it ain't fair -- not one bit.
For every one of these, there is the player who takes over a five center
power in 1902 and plays it for years.
For most of the 80's, I only played as a standby so you are relegating
me to the rating doldrums.
Where's the incentive for us standbys to play out hopeless positions?
Ah, but I have a solution for you as well!!
I call it the rule of THREES.
If a standby plays at least THREE game years before the end AND
presides over a change (either up or down) in the number of supply centers
controlled equalling or exceeding THREE, then said standby player receives
full and complete credit for the final position of the position he or she
is playing!
Since I choose three to correspond to the number of centers controlled in
1900, one might wish to make a Russian exception to FOUR, at least in the
downward direction.
Though, as Buz asserts, replacement play is a different animal than
original play it's in the same genus and it isn't fair to long suffering
replacement players to leave them unclassified in the cold.
Some scientist you are!
On the downside, it will punish unserious replacement players, but will
leave the player who takes over the one or two center power innoculated
against losing rating points for being eliminated.

There you are -- an adaptation to the Hall of Fame for the resigning player
is clear, if the standby doesn't receive credit for it, then the original
player does -- use it if you like.

Jim Burgess -- burgessj@gar.union.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  5 JAN 93 20:18:25 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:17:01 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Historical Variant

> Reply-To: "Richard V. Lamb" <USER60T4@EARN.UMICHUM>
>
> Here is a message I sent to Brent Tweeten about the kind of game he's
> describing.

> ---(Forwarded from: Richard V. Lamb@UMICHUM.BITNET, Dated: Tue, 5 Jan 93
>     14:56:42 EST)---
>
> What you want in terms of historical balance in the time period of Dip
> already exists, but not as a Dip variant.  It's a game called Pax Brittanica,
> where the powers are balanced historically and economics are *very* important.
>

Although I have never played I understand that ORIGINS OF WORLD WAR ONE and
ORIGINS OF WORLD WAR TWO are also in this vein of game (although not as comlplex
as Pax Brittanica).  I have postal rules for ORIGINS of WW I somewhere...


Mark.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona
X-PS-Qualifiers: /charset=dec-mcs
X-Envelope-to: DIPL-L@MITVMA.BITNET
X-VMS-To: DIPL-L@MITVMA.BITNET
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 09:58:00 GMT+0100
Reply-To:     IMEF2@EBCCUAB1.BITNET
From:         IMEF2@EBCCUAB1.BITNET
Subject:      game blind complete, ready to start.

        Hello

        Game "blind" has already been filled with players. We are going to
start it as soon as I have contacted all the players to ultimate details.

        This message is devoted to all those people who wrote to me asking
for information about the gamer before joining it. To all those I sent a
message saying that they better signed first because the number of players
where increasing. Unfortunately, only seven people can play and the team
is complete up to now.

        However, I now will send a broadcast message to all the players
in order to comunicate further details. If any of them does not like them
he may resign. In this case I would send a message "opening" for blind.

        However, you may all sign as observers, so that you will be the
first ones to know about opennings. But being an observer of a blind
game may not be very interesting, you will only receive broadcast
messages, never the complete resolution of movements. Sorry, but that's
blind.

                                        Yours sincerely

                                        Joan C. Artes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:43:13 EST
Reply-To:     Nick Fitzpatrick <nick@SUNBURN.UWATERLOO.CA>
From:         Nick Fitzpatrick <nick@SUNBURN.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: MODERATORS NEEDED! HELP! (Was: Re: Game 'qhorse' on the
              Washington judge needs a moderator

	In article <1993Jan12.203007.9137@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu
	(Joel Furr) further wastes bandwidth with:

	We also need moderators on "wasp" and "monkey" and "tapir" on the
	Washington judge.  Anyone who can come in and assume the moderatorship of
	these games would be appreciated.  If Wasp doesn't get one, a player may
	have to resign since he's got to go away for a period and needs the
	deadline manipulated.

These games are also moderated by Ken Lowe, please read the history files
to discover WHY a game is moderated before jumping in!

Nick
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 01:00:46 -0500
Reply-To:     David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
From:         David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: The relative merits of NMR

>Why tell people "you can't form a fast-moving
>game on the EFF judge so long as there are slots open in those games on
>the Washington judge that process one turn every two and a half weeks?"

  I've not told anyone that they cannot form a fash moving game on the EFF
judge. There are several "express" games and one NMR game.

  I *am* trying to encourage people to take over positions on the Washington
judge, though. If enough people do, the games will get going again, and
run to completion.

>That's mindless.

  No, it's not mindless, it's my opinion and that of a few other people.
Maybe it's been a bad week for me, but your tone keeps setting me off and
it really makes it hard to be reasonable with you.

>since everyone's sick of
>waiting two weeks for each turn to process.

  I'm not sick of two week turns. I'm just in a lot of games so I usually
have something going in one of them. What's this desire for instant
gratification? We all have our own desires and opinions, let's try not
to attribute them to everyone else.

-David
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:50:14 EST
Reply-To:     Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: No Subject Given

>From:         Cliff <cmckeith%galsci.uucp@MATHCS.EMORY.EDU>
>
>>Get this.  The Turkey player in "tapir" on the Washington judge was
>>getting his head handed to him.  So when Italy went CD, he resigned Turkey
>>and signed on as Italy.  Or something like that.  Hence Turkey is now
>>abandoned and may be taken over immedriately.
>
>Now THIS is something that I define as "goofy play," and thus in violation
>of EP house rules.  Now, I don't know if "tapir" is an EP game or not, but
>I would be downright irate if I were another player in that game.

I agree.
Well, I wouldn't call it Goofy, but I think it is a Very Bad Thing.

Tapir is unmoderated. Moderators should prevent such things from
happening, I think.

Jamie
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:30:23 -0500
Reply-To:     David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
From:         David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Re: The relative merits of NMR

>And someone going CD in an NMR game is equivalent to, you guessed it,
>civil disorder.  Like what happened in Russia in 1917.  That's why they
>call it "civil disorder."  CD doesn't mean that the units of the affected
>country vanish into thin air.  They hold.  This may not have all that much
>of a difference.  If someone spots the CD country sitting there in an NMR
>game, they can always come in and take it over.  Perhaps only one "wasted"
>turn will have taken place.

  It is entirely likely that the country that went CD will not be in bad
shape compared to the rest of the countries, prompting the new owner to
quit, allowing it to go CD again, allowing it to get overrun a bit more,
etc.

>Let me give another case: someone's down to one army.  In a supply center,
>true.  They give up and quit.  The other players wait 10 days for them to
>go CD, then ask people to take over.  People eye the army and decline.
>I'm playing an army in 'light' on the Washington judge and hey, there's
>NOT a lot I can do with it.  Which is more realistic?  People waiting 10
>days to two weeks for the army to go CD, or the army just holding?  Makes
>darn poor sense for 35 units to grind to a stop because that Russian army
>holed up in Berlin isn't issuing orders.

  I think the solution is to encourage people to take over such positions.
I've taken on one or two because they're very low maintenance and it helps
other people out. I think we can convince a few other people to do the
same thing.

>I had rather a country go CD and just hold and perhaps then get a
>replacement player and perhaps NOT get a replacement player and go on
>holding than watch all the players in the game sitting there losing
>interest days or weeks after the grace ended.  I don't play Diplomacy for
>the mindless tedium.  I play it for the strategy, and dealing with a
>neighbor whose armies suddenly stop aggressive behavior and just hold
>their positions is just another form of strategy.

  Dealing with a neighbor who just underwent a coup and acquired a different
leader with different objectives is another. We all have valid beliefs,
I think.


-David
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  8 JAN 93 16:56:57 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:55:32 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Historical Variant?

> From: Andy Lipscomb <LIPSCOJA@Edu.Vanderbilt.ctrvax>


> MARK>    So no on-line variant bank in the immediate future.

> OK, but how about an occasional posting of a list (with short descriptions)
> of variants in the land-mail banks, with info on how to get them?

The NAVB Custodian is listed in the rec.games.diplomacy.FAQ (or at least it
*should be*, I don't have a copy of the latest version).  You can get a
catalogue from the NAVB.

I am working (...) on producing a VARIANT AZ along the lines of what you
suggest.  Version <1.0> is almost finished, I've just got to write an
introduction to it.  I'll try and post it REAL SOON.

   Since there are 1000+ variants in the NAVB the describtions I have in the
VARIANT AZ represent only a small fraction of the total.

   It has been suggested (over Xmas actually) that the VARIANT AZ should be
written so that every variant in the UKVB gets reviewed.  As ever the problem
is finding the time... (Most of the reviews in the current VARIANT AZ are
written by other people, I've just compiled them into one file.)

     Mark.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 08:30:09 -0500
Reply-To:     David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
From:         David C Kovar <kovar@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      NMR vs. noNMR

>Continuing on my pro-NMR and anti-Status Quo crusade, I'd like to report
>that *four* games I entered as a result of desperate pleas for someone to
>come in and replace CD powers have been SITTING there for over a week
>while we wait for all seven powers to submit.  What has actually happened
>is that someone comes in, takes over a power, DOESN'T submit orders, and
>then goes CD again.  Because the standard grace is a goddamn 168 hours, we
>sit there forever KNOWING the person isn't going to come back and submit
>orders -- in two cases all we're waiting on is for the person to BUILD,
>not actually order movements -- but can do NOTHING about it for over a
>week.  And, since many of the games on the Washington judge no longer have
>moderators, there's nothing we can do short of begging the Washington
>judge operator to step in and shorten the grace manually.  I finally did
>beg.

  First off, the Christmas season puts a spin on things. Vacations really
screw up the schedules. I'd suggest waiting 'til later in the year if you're
going to make a decision based on how people are behaving currently.

  I don't think the solution is to make every game NMR. I think a better
solution is to require moderators, as the EFF judge does.

  A number of turnovers in players isn't desireable, but the game is stay
played (normally) in a reasonable fashion. With NMR, there is the potential
for a player playing "irrationally" and just ordering all of his units to
hold. That can be a boon for an attacking player and a major blow for an
ally expecting support or a secure flank.

>  Is it "real" Diplomacy for a crew of people to wait a month for a
>half-year's worth of play to take place?  We wait a week and a half for
>moves, then a week and a half for a couple retreats that only have one
>province each to retreat to, then a week and a half for builds.  And
>that's assuming that we don't go through a lengthy delay where person
>after person replaces CD powers only to vanish without submitting orders.
>We may never see another turn process in 'tapir' or 'monkey' or 'qhorse'
>or 'wasp' on the Washington judge and 'chocolat' on the EFF Judge because
>of the insanely slow course of play compounded by the determination to
>play no NMR in order to "maintain the integrity of the game" and all that.

  Define "real" Diplomacy. Diplomacy is what you make of it. Due to people's
schedules and email delays, the game can take a long time. You can either
kick back and let it go at a slow rate, or you can join games that have
moderators who are committed to keeping the games flowing.

  In summation - I *strongly* believe that NMR is more damaging to a Diplomacy
game than long delays and changing players.

-David
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  7 JAN 93 11:34:32 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:33:07 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Historical Variant?

> From: Michael Norrish <Michael.Norrish@NZ.AC.VUW.COMP>

> Incidentally, there is an economic variant called Perestroika about
> that purports to slow the game down a bit. Its basic idea is that with
> as much to gain from trade, people aren't necessarily as keen to go to
> war. Is there a variants' bank online yet? I'm sure it'd be a useful
> resource.


I could snail you a copy of the Perestroika rules if you want to retype them
Michael.  The main problem with Perestroika is that the rules have been
constantly revised so that it's difficult to get the latest set of rules.
I have a reasonable newish copy if you are interested...

Mark.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l,rec.games.diplomacy
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: NMR, games with many replacement players, and Hall of Fame
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 03:54:37 GMT

In article <1ii2v5INNiki@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> PL436000@brownvm.brown.edu (Jamie) writes:
>I am very strongly in favor of the NoNMR rule.
>
>Not every NMR affects a game that way. But unless we want to have
>post hoc judges deciding how disastrous a given NMR turned out to
>be, we need to maintain the rule that only NoNMR games can be
>counted in Hall of Fame. Whereas I think there is no problem at
>all counting multiple replacement games toward HoF points.

Nope, that's a patently idiotic point of view.  There are games going now
where people have come in and taken over positions where they have, say,
seven or eight units, and they roll over some weaker powers.  Should these
people get credit in the hall of fame for superior play?  I don't think
so.  The policy which permits games to STOP for weeks and weeks until
someone comes in and takes over a power totally destroys any consistent
diplomatic maneuvering.  We might as well introduce dice into the game.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  5 JAN 93 14:19:27 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:18:09 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Opening libraries

> From: Piotr Sulecki <PSULECKI@EARN.PLTUMK11>

> Anyone knows if opening libraries for variants exist ( and, if yes, where ) ?
> I am especially interested in Youngstown and Machiavelli openings.


There haven't been sufficient games of Youngstown/Machiavelli run to merit
their opening libraries, although you might care to `volunteer' to collect
such information.  Although there, I would guess, been over 40 games of
Youngstown run postally over the years these have been split over 14 different
versions of the game.  I don't know how many Machiavelli games have been run,
I'd guess no more than 20; again there are different versions.

I have an article on file about Russian openings in Youngstown, this is the
only article I have ever seen written on Youngstown.  I have never seen a
Machiavelli article although the End Game Statements for the game usually
contain much useful information on how to play the game.


Incidentally, one upon a time someone ran a ROund Robin Youngstown game.
Is any one stupid enough to want to run an email RRY...?  NO I didn't think so.

Mark.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  8 JAN 93 15:32:29 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:31:05 GMT
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      CD DIPLOMACY VARIANTS

The CD/NO NMR debate is most amusing.  Keep up the good work lads. 8-)

A recent poster pointed out that in WW I Russia effectively went into
CD in 1917.  This reminds me there are several variants which make use
of this idea.

I can't rememeber any of the names of these variants (Per can you help?)
but the basic idea in most of them is that you can cause revolutions which
split the forces of the player whose country has gone into revolt.  There
are normally rules about which units go into CD and which ones don't.

Mark.
From: hseung@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu (Hyunsuk Seung)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Re: Flirting: Two thumbs (mine) up
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:59:02 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

AYC3@NCH08A.EM.CDC.GOV writes:
| Did any of you see the movie FLIRTING?  I'd love to hear what you thought
| about it.

I just saw it yesterday, and boy did I enjoy it!  The photograph of
the boy's ex-girlfriend was a real treat, if you know what I mean.

| The primary romance itself was between a
| dorky-looking, Sartre-loving white boy and a very pretty, also-Sartre-loving
| Ugandan girl (the only black girl in her school).

Wasn't there another black girl (in the beginning of the movie)?

| The nice (but not
| "over-sugared") mood it left me with reminded me a lot of movies like
| Gregory's Girl.  Unfortunately, I can't recall any American "teenybopper"
| movies that have the same effect, so maybe someone else can think of one.

Check out THE YEAR MY VOICE BROKE, also done by the same director.

Hyunsuk Seung
hseung@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:56:19 PDT
From:         DU013@OASIS.CALPOLY.EDU
Subject:      Re: Siskel & Ebert Top Ten
              7 Jan 1993 11:14:00 EST from <AMBLY@CLUST1.CLEMSON.EDU>

From:  Mary Shaffer
       Assistant to the Vice President
       Information Systems
Adrian, BAD LIEUTENANT is an independent film starring Harvey Keitel. It
was directed by Abel Ferrara. Keitel plays a vice cop with every vice in
the book (alcohol & drug abuse, sexual perversion, etc.) who is forced to
review his attitude/way of life when he encounters a nun who was raped but
forgives her assailant. The film has been compared with MEAN STREETS and TAXI
DRIVER because of its examination of guilt and redemption and violence.
It has generally received rave reviews, especially for Keitel. Everyone says
his performance is really memorable, his best yet in a career of interesting
performances. It is rated NC-17 (it includes a scene of frontal male nudity)
so it may be hard to find in theaters. I'm still waiting for it to arrive
in our area, although it is playing in San Francisco.

Thanks,
Mary
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
From: szopinsk@picard.med.ge.com (Jerry Szopinski Mfg 4-6983)
Subject: Re: A few good Marines
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 06:40:35 GMT

Carol Slingo (slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU) wrote:
: Did anybody answer this one?  I believe the Marine Corps is still part of
: the Navy--isn't it?



Carol-

THE MARINES ARE NOT A PART OF THE NAVY!  The Marines are a separate, distinct service and have
their own seat on the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  The Marines still do work closely with the Navy
and, at times, use Navy facilities/ships/equipment.  PLEASE, never, ever combine Leathernecks
and Squids!


An old Jarhead,
Jerry


"It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave and keep on
thinking free!"  --  Moody Blues



:
From: hseung@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu (Hyunsuk Seung)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Re: Flirting: Two thumbs (mine) up
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:17:16 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

AYC3@NCH08A.EM.CDC.GOV (Anjani) writes:
| GREAT!  I'm delighted to hear that _Flirting_ is part of a trilogy with the
| same actor, etc.  I'll definitely have to see _The Year My Voice Broke_.  Do
| you happen to know the name of the director?

John Duigan wrote and directed _Flirting_, as well as _The Year My
Voice Broke_ and _One Night Stand_.

Hyunsuk Seung
hseung@anat3d1.anatomy.upenn.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:46:00 EST
From:         Penny Ward <UNCPEW@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Deep Space 9 actors

Ooops and excuse me:  I meant to say in my previous post that the
actor who played the Kardassian clothing merchant is Andrew
*Robinson*.

--Penny
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU