HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CSMSETS@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (CSMSETS)
Subject: Re: still camera of whose images to computer
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:02:15 PDT

In article <1992Aug13.172240.10333@sequent.com>, on 13 Aug 92 17:22:40 GMT,
coryc@sequent.com (Cory Carpenter) writes:

>
>In article <33080053@hpmwmat.sr.hp.com> mikep@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Powell) writes:
>>
>>
>>       I hear that many people have had great success with the
>>       CANNON Zap-Shot.... and the Amiga (although probably any
>>       platform : Mac/Clone etc. should work).
>>
>>       The Zap-Shot records images to a small floppy diskette, and
>>       I believe it has a video out for display.
>
>If you go looking for one, I think you'll find that it's spelled "Xap Shot"
>(and pronounced "zap").
>
>-coryc

I've gotten great results with my Sony CCDV801 and a ResterOps 364
video/frame grabber card in an old Mac II. You can edit/fix up the
images with Adobe Photoshop and I print them on my HP DeskWriter C.
The whole set up is (any video camera - you probably have one) +$400
something for the frame grabber card and +$629 for the DeskWriter C.
(you don't need the printer unless you want hard copy and you can get
good frame grabbers for less (but this card also displays on 13/14"
monitors in 24-bit colour). I also think you get better resolution
with the frame grabber, and the printer is 300dpi.
         --Ed
From: killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: Sony V99 clone for sale
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:20:38 GMT
Organization: SPC Community Access System

In article <1992Aug15.131545.3619@spcvxb.spc.edu>, killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen) writes:
> 
> Send mail to: killeen@einser.decus.org

Sorry for the additional message - the mail address above is wrong...

	Send mail to: killeen@eisner.decus.org
From: borowski@hpspkla.spk.hp.com (Don T. Borowski)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:43:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Noise from superimposed text?
Organization: Hewlett Packard Company, Spokane, Wa.
Newsgroups: rec.video

In rec.video, schuster@panix.com (Michael Schuster) writes:

>In article <7311@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> jwu@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (John T. Wu) writes:
>>
>>Question:  I recently recorded a tv program with my hitachi
>>vcr using the timer.  When I tried to watch what I had recorded
>>the player automatically switches from ep to sp and all I see
>>is the equivalent of fast forward scan (e.g. fast picture
>>and no audio).  I have tried everything I can think of to 
>>fix it including recording a brief segment at the beginning
>>in ep mode to force the rest of the tape to ep.  Doing this
>>I get a shaky, but normal speed picture, but no audio.
>>
>>Does anyone know why this happens?  More importantly, anyone
>>have any ideas on how to fix it?
>
>
>Sounds like the control track on the tape got farkled.
>Inspect the tape and check that the edge isn't creased.
>Then clean the stationary heads; perhaps the control head has
>some dirt on it and it's interfering with tape speed detection.

And also demagnetize the head.  I have seen magnetized heads cause
this as well.

If you do all this, and the problem persists on all tapes, you will
need to have the machine repaired--bad tape speed servo circuit.


Donald Borowski    WA6OMI    Hewlett-Packard, Spokane Division
"Angels are able to fly because they take themselves so lightly."
                                       -G.K. Chesterton
From: killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: edit controller-info?
Date: 20 Aug 92 05:55:48 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: SPC Community Access System

In article <1992Aug19.845.16708@dosgate>, lawrence.kwan@canrem.com (lawrence kwan) writes:
> I need some advice on purchasing an edit controller.
>
> One thing I like about Sony controllers is the jog shuttle feature
> which should be handy for controlling the camcorder - How well does this
> work in reality?  When I was in Hong Kong, a salesman was trying to sell
> me the new Sony RM-E500.  It looked similar to the E300/E700 but without
> the titler function (not important to me).  He claimed that the E500 has
> a "real" jog shuttle which the E300/E700 did not have.  Is there such
> a thing as a "real"  jog shuttle?

The titler in the RM-E300 is primitive so you wouldn't loose anything of real 
value.  Does the RM-E500 have the RC timecode feature of the RM-E700.

The RM-E300 has a shuttle dial but not the jog ring. The RM-E700 has the same 
jog/shuttle setup your R5 has.

I have only seen the RM-E80, RM-E100, RM-E300, and RM-E700 advertised in the 
US.

BTW - The September 1992 issue of "Video" magazine has a write-up on the...

           Panasonic AG-A96 (+/- 5 frames)
           Sony RM-E700 (+/- 1 frame when used with V801)
           Future Video TC-1000 MKII (+/- 1 frame - no jog/shuttle)
           Canon ED-100  (+/- 5 frames - no jog/shuttle)
           Videonics PRO ED (+/- 6 frames - no jog/shuttle)
From: yzhang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Yinong Zhang)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: SONY TR71 without serial #
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:27:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UB


   I ordered a SONY TR71 from a NY mail order house last week. Today
I received it and found out there is no serial # in the body. The place
in which the serial # should be is blank. I called SONY service immediately.
The answer is this: It is the dealer who took the serial # off. There is no
way I can get any service from SONY.

   Does anybody have the same experience? I called the mail order house today.
The guy insisted that the small numbers on the viewfinder is the serial #.
It is not. I want to return the video recorder and the guy just hung up. 

What I should do?  Please help.

Chang
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Getting the Best Deal from Columbia LD
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:11:47 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

Having just purchased a laserdisc player (a demo Pioneer CLD-3070 for $439
including a 3 year parts & labor warranty), I recently joined the 
Columbia LD Club through a friend.  The enlistment offer noted that I could 
select items from the catalog as well as from the brochure, with the
exception of being forbidden to select "sets" or "3 discs" offerings.

I perused the catalog and found the new Star Wars LBX trilogy.  However it 
was not classified as a "set" and each had only 2 discs.  So I went for it
and they delivered!  Each of these list for $69.95.  Even if I had been 
able to find them locally for 15% off, I would have paid around $190
including sales tax.  But instead I picked them up for $7.88.

Once I purchase two $29.95 movies and complete my obligation, I will have
spent around $72 and will own $270 of products.  Not a bad deal at all.

Dana Bunner
From: killeen@spcvxb.spc.edu (Jeff Killeen)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: SONY TR71 without serial #
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:05:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPC Community Access System

In article <BtF2xF.t1@acsu.buffalo.edu>, yzhang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Yinong Zhang) writes:
> 
>    I ordered a SONY TR71 from a NY mail order house last week. Today
> I received it and found out there is no serial # in the body. The place
> in which the serial # should be is blank. I called SONY service immediately.
> The answer is this: It is the dealer who took the serial # off. There is no
> way I can get any service from SONY.
> 
>    Does anybody have the same experience? I called the mail order house today.
> The guy insisted that the small numbers on the viewfinder is the serial #.
> It is not. I want to return the video recorder and the guy just hung up. 
> 
> What I should do?  Please help.

Hopefully you paid by credit card.  If you did call your credit company and
they will explain how to stop payment on the charge.  You most likely will have
to write the company a letter and then the credit card company.  If you can
prove to the credit card company that the goods were unacceptable and the
vendor won't resolve it they will pull the charge.  ALWAYS USE A CREDIT CARD
WHEN BUYING MAIL ORDER.  Without that serial number I doubt you have a Sony
warranty. 

There are three likely reasons why the serial number has been pulled.  I order
of "likelyness"... 

	1) They purchased the CamCorder from a Sony dealer who does not want it 
traced back to them.  Sony shops the discounters and traces the CamCorders back 
to the original dealer.  If they find they had given that dealer advertising 
allowances and that dealer dumped the CamCorder that dealer will be in trouble. 
In any case (even thou it is illegal) Sony will trace the unit back and give 
the dealer trouble by reducing shipments.

	2) It is not a US CamCorder

	3) It is stolen
Newsgroups: rec.video
From: gary@st.unocal.com (Gary Cattelino)
Subject: SLV-R5 Problem - Help!
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:49:24 GMT

I got a brand new SLV-R5 about a week ago and need help diagnosing
a problem.


Problem:  I recoreded a program from CATV using my SLV-R5 in S-VHS mode
          onto S-VHS tape.  When I played back the program on the
          same R5, I get noise at the very bottom of the picture.

          The noise is white lines jumping around.   The noise only
          appears at the very bottom of the screen and covers very
          few scan lines.  It's almost like a very slight tracking
          problem, but tracking adjustments don't help.


Configuration:  Mitsubishi TV, SLV-R5 vcr, Maxell black magnetite S-VHS tape
                ST-120 XR-S(B)


Progress to date:

I have produced this problem using two different Maxell S-VHS tapes
and one TDK XP SUPER PRO S-VHS tape.

I took the tapes I recorded to a friends SLV-R5 to see if the noise
was visible on his setup.  I could not see any noise on his
Sony EXR 27" TV.  You say:  "It must be the VCR!".  Well, maybe
yes, maybe no.  Two major variables were changed when I took the
tapes to my friends house:  the TV & VCR.  Maybe my friends TV
has more overscan than mine and thus doesn't show the noise?
Is this possible?  My Mitsubishi TV has very little overscan -
I can easily read "Stock prices delayed by 15 minutes" on FNN.
I'm not sure how much overscan my friends TV has.  Could it
be possible that the SLV-R5 is factory set to assume a certain
amount of overscan and my TV is showing something that most
TV's wouldn't?

For my next test I really need to change just one variable - the
TV.  I have a second TV that has a lot of overscan (can't read the
bottom line on FNN).  I plan to plug that TV into my R5 and see
if any noise is visible.

Since this unit is under warranty, I'm also considering just 
taking it to the Sony service center and telling them to fix it.
But, I think I'd like to run a few more tests first.

Does this line of reasoning make sense?
Does anyone know what's causing my problem?
Any ideas on what I should do???
Am I making any sense at all?

HELP!!!!

-- 
Gary A. Cattelino                  Unocal Corporate Information Services
Phone: (714) 693-6762              5460 E. La Palma Ave.
INTERNET: gary@unocal.COM          Anaheim, CA 92807
Newsgroups: rec.video
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Subject: Re: Is there an audio/video receiver?
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 16:52:49 GMT

|> Hmm..  I am the market for some type of audio/video receiver.  And by
|> video receiver, I don't mean the kind that is frequently found in store..
|> that is, I want to receive the Video, not just the audio from the video
|> channels (this is what most of the so-called a/v receivers actually do).

No, most a/v receivers actually receive only audio.  The have switchers and
decoders to handle video coming from external tuners.  What you probably want
is an a/v tuner and a separate intergated amplifier.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
Newsgroups: rec.video
From: wlrc@uhura.neoucom.edu (William R. Cruce)
Subject: Re: LD vs Broadcast TV
Organization: Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:13:28 GMT

In article <7970959@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> rjn@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Niland) writes:
>In rec.video, steelie@csa.bu.edu (James Howard) writes:
>
>> Given ideal reception conditions, if I were to watch a non letter boxed
>> version of Star Trek II on broadcast TV, and it somehow had no commercials
>> and was not edited for TV, and I watched the same movie in non-letter
>> boxed format with a good TV and a good LD player..  Which would have more
>> lines of resolution?  TV or LD?

>> In short, which delivers a sharper/better defined picture?

>As in most of life, there are no short answers.
>Well, maybe one...
>Around here (Ft.Collins CO), even the worst (non-defective) LDs I ever seen
>are miles ahead of what ST-TNG looks like on the local cable company.

Well, for a variant opinion:  In Kent OH over a TCI fiber optic
cable system, Channel 43 WUAB from Cleveland produces a pretty good
broadcast of ST: TNG.  I haven't been able to compare a LD against
the same episode, but my memory of them is that they are about comparabel
in image quality.  Sound is slightly better on LD.  The LD is improved
over S-VHS recordings of the cable broadcasts, particularly in having
lower noise levels (with Mitsubishi U-71).  And that is what is most
relevant.  For repeat viewings, the LD image is better and, as pointed
out, offers the random access features.


-- 
                 "So many windows, So little time"

Bill Cruce, N.E. Ohio Univ. Coll. of Medicine, Box 95, Rootstown, OH 44272
VOICE: 216-325-2511,  FAX: 216-325-0522,  INTERNET: wlrc@uhura.neoucom.edu
From: shantanu@poseidon.oakhill.uucp (Shantanu Ganguly)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: Need advice on JVC VCRs
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:14:12 GMT
	<1992Aug6.020059.29917@news.Hawaii.Edu>
	<1992Aug6.145757.21257@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
	<1992Aug14.183656.11873@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPS CAD, Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas.

In article <1992Aug14.183656.11873@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes:

   Newsgroups: rec.video
Path: oakhill!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!yale!gumby!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov!hyc
   From: hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu)
   Sender: news@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Usenet)
   Nntp-Posting-Host: hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov
   Organization: SAR Systems Development & Processing, JPL
   References: <1992Aug3.133802.13074@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> <1992Aug6.020059.29917@news.Hawaii.Edu> <1992Aug6.145757.21257@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
   Distribution: usa
   Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:36:56 GMT
   Lines: 14

   In article <1992Aug6.145757.21257@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> hcy@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (hon-chi.yu) writes:
   >Oh, regarding the infamous Hi-Fi dropout problem of JVC VCRs, I am interested
   >to know if the newer models (like HRS-4700, 6700 etc.) still have that problem.
   >( I am interested in observations that have a little bit of statistical 
   >significance.)
   >For one, my 1 yr old HRS-4700 does not have dropout problem ( yet. :-) ).

   My year-old HRD-980U doesn't seem to have this problem either. Of course, it
   also has an explicit switch to select HiFi, Normal, or Mixed audio...
   -- 
     -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

I've been playing around with a 6700 since last week, haven't had any
problem with hi-fi dropout so far. The audio track has switched
momentarily from hifi to norm and back (happened 4/5 times total on a 
much-rented copy of Star Wars). With stuff I recorded, the audio track
was excellent. Audio tracking was very good on the few movies I have
watched so far, sounded great thru pro-logic.

Shantanu Ganguly
--

Shantanu Ganguly
Somerset (Motorola) - Power PC Project

phone : (512) 795-7146                  Motorola Inc, Mail Drop OE 513
fax   : (512) 795-7511                  6501 William Cannon Drive W.
                                        Austin TX 78735-8598
email : shantanu%ibmoto.com@oakhill.sps.mot.com 

Texas is where you get BOTH kinds of music - country and western.
From: teague@acavax.lynchburg.edu
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: For Sale: Sony Anniversary Betamax
Date: 22 Aug 92 04:10:49 GMT
Organization: Lynchburg College


I have a one-year old Sony Anniversary Betamax which I will consider selling
based on offers received.  I was initially unhappy with this unit because of
dropouts, a problem also originally exhibited by my ED-7500 Beta deck.  It
took four months for the servicing technician to learn from Sony that the cure
for the 2100 was a variation on the same drum grounding kit that had cured the
dropouts on my ED-Beta deck.  Because I was impatient, however, I purchased a
second ED deck (another 7500) in the meantime, and I now have no need (not to
mention switcher jacks) for the completely cured 2100.  I will provide full
details regarding this unit's repair history for anyone interested.  I have
fully tested this deck and the dropout problem has been cured; it's just that
this unit is extraneous to me at this point.

Please E-mail any responses to TEAGUE@ACAVAX.LYNCHBURG.EDU
---
Kipp Teague
VAX Systems Manager
Lynchburg College
Lynchburg, VA  24501
From: lawson@netsun (Jim Lawson)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: Where to upload L/D datafile ?
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:16:17 GMT
Reply-To: Lawson%ssdvax.decnet@lbgwy.mdc.com
Organization: MDSSC-SSD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
X-Posted-From: netsun.mdc.com
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I believe the Barr datafile was around 2 meg, I'll call Ken up and see what 
he'll do and how big it will be. So far the only ftp site that has contacted
me is one that is mirroring the Niland LD FAQ to nic.funet.fi to 
/pub/culture/tv+film/laserdisc directory.

--
Jim Lawson	Lawson%ssdvax.decnet@lbgwy.mdc.com
		Alt:	Lawson@netsun.mdc.com or Lawson@mdcbbs.com

Opinions/Comments expressed here are my own and no one elses !!
Xref: sparky rec.video:10359 rec.video.satellite:4287
From: larry@gator.rn.com (Larry Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.video,rec.video.satellite
Subject: Re: Please advice on Multi System Converters
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:10:41 GMT
Organization: The Gator Public Access Unix Site - 219-289-3745

yasin@laser.dev.cdx.mot.com (Yasin) writes:


>	.  Feed signals from the Satellite dish, directly
>	   to this system, and view this on a PAL/NTSC TV.
>	   This will be done in Pakistan, and I have no
>	   idea on the type of signal I will receive over
>	   there. (BTW can I use a dish used in USA over
>	   in Pakistan. If not what kind of information
>	   should I get from Pakistan in order to buy
>	   a compatible system in USA.)

When I lived in Orlando, FL I had a 12 foot TVRO system with a horizon
to horizon mount.  I had a clear shot of the horizon both east and west
and I could pick up the intelsats over the atlantic broadcasting in PAL.
My TVRO receiver of course, was NTSC and couldn't decode the picture so
what I saw as a slow scrolling BW picture - but it was watchable.  
Capital Radio from London was on a subcarrier -- and I even called their
request line and received a tee-shirt from them (2 months later).  Anyhow
I was told that I could purchase a multiformat NEC VHS VCR and connect
it to the baseband output of the TVRO receiver and hang the monitor
off the VCR.

-- 
Larry Snyder                                    internet: larry@gator.rn.com
keeper of the Gator                                  uucp: uunet!gator!larry
Newsgroups: rec.video
From: tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan)
Subject: Re: Getting the Best Deal from Columbia LD
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:13:03 GMT


In article <Bsxw91.K0w@gator.rn.com> larry@gator.rn.com (Larry Snyder) writes:
>bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner) writes:
>
>>Once I purchase two $29.95 movies and complete my obligation, I will have
>>spent around $72 and will own $270 of products.  Not a bad deal at all.
>
>Is $29.95 the "average" price of LDs from the club?

No, $29.95 is the LOWEST price (effectively). Although there are some
LDs for $24.95, purchasing them does not count towards your membership
obligation. The club prices are all full boat list, so the average price
is (SWAG alert!) around $50 or so.

Newsgroups: rec.video
From: benjamin@tuna.az05.bull.com (Paul Benjamin)
Subject: Re: Need advice on JVC VCRs
Organization: Bull HN
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:11:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.032504.207@u.washington.edu> il@bambam.u.washington.edu
(Il Hwan Oh) writes:
>shantanu@poseidon.oakhill.uucp (Shantanu Ganguly) writes:
>
>> I've been playing around with a 6700 since last week, haven't had any
>> problem with hi-fi dropout so far. The audio track has switched
>> momentarily from hifi to norm and back (happened 4/5 times total on a 
>> much-rented copy of Star Wars). With stuff I recorded, the audio track
>> was excellent. Audio tracking was very good on the few movies I have
>> watched so far, sounded great thru pro-logic.
>
>That's precisely what the Hi-Fi dropout problem is.  Mine started out
>that way.  After a couple of months, it happened occasionally on tapes
>I recorded.  I'd return it for a real VCR if I were you.
>
>-- 
>Il Hwan Oh                              | What is "Martinizing",
>Computer Facilities Manager             |  and why does it
>University of Washington, Tacoma        |   take one hour?
>iho@cac.washington.edu                  | 
>

I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not it is doing what it is
supposed to.  Mine does that too, but primarily on rental tapes and
on tapes that I record on frequently.  Up until this discussion I 
assumed that it was the tape's fault, that it was probably happening
on my old machine too but I didn't notice it.  The JVC flashes NORM
or HIFI on the screen when it switches, which makes it more noticeable.
It only occurs for a split second.  I haven't checked, but I'll bet
that the dropout occurs at the same spot on the frequently-recorded
tapes each time.  Are you saying that a "real VCR" would somehow
compensate for this and not lose the HIFI track when it encounters
a bad spot on the tape?
-
Paul Benjamin                 Phone:  (602) 862-4627
Bull HN Information Systems   Fax:    (602) 862-4535
Phoenix, Arizona              E-mail: benjamin@tuna.az05.bull.com
From: goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: Sony SLV-R5U Owners... Help me!
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:42:07 GMT
Reply-To: goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center, Annapolis, MD

In rec.video, tsui@ils.nwu.edu writes:
>I plan on keeping my R5
>as the record deck because the 1960 doesn't seem to have video insert.
[other stuff deleted]

The Pansonic AG-1960 does indeed have video insert.  When used as the
record deck in conjuntion with the Future Video controller, you can
do inserts of video (with hifi audio), linear audio alone, or video
plus linear audio.  New versions of the Future Video controllers allow
you to determine the length of the insert by marking in- and out-points
on the play side as well as the record side.

   /|/| /||)|/  /~ /\| |\|)[~|)/~   |   Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
  / | |/ ||\|\  \_|\/|_|/|)[_|\\_|  |      goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil
========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======
From: bill@thd.tv.tek.com (William K. McFadden)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Defective LDs from Columbia House
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:49:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix TV Products

For what it's worth, I have bought 10 LDs from Columbia House, and one
of them (The Wrath of Khan) was defective.  Size one was full of wavy
lines and excessive video noise.

-- 
Bill McFadden    Tektronix, Inc.  P.O. Box 500  MS 58-639  Beaverton, OR  97077
bill@tv.tv.tek.com, ...!tektronix!tv.tv.tek.com!bill      Phone: (503) 627-6920
How can I prove I am not crazy to people who are?