HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikec@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Mike Coleman)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 15:55:49 GMT

Terry.Murphy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Terry Murphy) writes:

>>I understand that for some people, the 12 steps in general and AA, in
>>particular, have saved their lives, and any hint that it is not the
>>optimum solution for someone else threatens your recovery.  But what
>>happens when you attack anyone who honestly questions the program,
>>even in an effort to gain more understanding of it, is that you make
>>this an unsafe place for those people to post.   I notice we haven't
>>heard a word from Christina since Jim P. blasted her a couple weeks
>>ago.
>>
>>So maybe this is part of your plan.  Attack the dissenters and
>>alt.recovery will become alt.aa.  
>>
>>Moira  

>Moira, let me break this to you gently. I did have my life saved by AA, in
>particular. When I post, I speak for no one or no group, only for myself.
>My solution was the 12 steps of AA. My Big Book says that is suggestive, not
>The answer, but a answer. To those who can find recovery through self help
>groups, psychotherapy, church or any other way, Great for them. And if that
>way can help others who are still suffering, fantastic!

>NO ONE CAN THREATEN MY RECOVERY BUT ME

>Words can't even begin
>to shake my beliefs.

>I do not attack for the purpose of attacking. If my words were harsh, what
>about what life is to the people who still suffer from alcohol. A few well
>choosen words may save their life.

>I do agree that alt.recovery is too large. I would love to see alt.aa, because
>my primary purpose is to carry the message to the Alcoholic not the
>Overeater, ACoA, Smoker, Drug abuser, incest survivor....et al.
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^


One of my big bitches with AA, even though I am an active member, is when
people separate drugs from alcohol. Alcohol is a drug (although drugs 
are not alcohol), and I treat it as such.  When I was younger I had old timers
talk at meetings about how "You shouldn't mention drugs here those goddamn
thing ar illegal, and blah blah bull shit bull shit bull shit". Well,
I left that at the meeting, and took the good stuff the meeting had to offer.
I always enjoy AA fellowship because it seemed more stable (mature, healthy)
than the NA meetings I went to in my town.

Anyway, that is my two cents worth.

Mike

==========================================================================
Mike G. Coleman, Site Computing Services - LAN Services, Intel Corporation
Voice - (503) 696-2984  Internet: Mike_G_Coleman@ccm.hf.intel.com   or
		         	           mikec@hfglobe.intel.com
   "the views I express are my own, nobody else would ever want them"
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: RECOVERY!@???
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:01:16 GMT

IN ADVICE FORMAT 8-)


Well, first you could admit that you are powerless, and that your life is
unmanagable...

Then maybe you could come to believe that a Power greater than yourself could
restore you to sanity...

Then maybe you could make a decision to turn your will and your life over to
the care of God, *as you understand him*...8-)

love and service,

jim p.


-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: What AA meetings are (and are not)
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:21:19 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell

In article <1992Jul29.190610.11073@ctr.columbia.edu> weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu writes:
>
>In alt.recovery, drh@spock.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>|> Recovery can be sharing *whatever* it is we need to share.
>
>And rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd) responded:
>|> This is a great point -- the success of a meeting is whether or not I shared
>|> what I needed to.
>
>The success of a meeting is whether or not I carried the message to an alcoholic
>who still suffers.
>
>When did recovery become "sharing"?  None of the Twelve Steps mention
>"sharing" and I don't believe the Big Book mentions "sharing" either.
>(Anyone who knows better on this one, please correct me.)
>give themselves to this simple program.
	(Stuff Deleted)
I don't know about "recovery becoming sharing" but I do know that
sharing has become a big part of my recovery. When I can carry the
message by sharing my stregnth, hope and experience that's great.
But to be able to do that I need to draw on the support of the group
to help me find the way through this new lifestyle I have chosen.
How better can I do that than by sharing what is going on in my life
( both the good times when the promises are coming true and when I
need help)? I believe that which ever I'm doing at the time (sharing
how it's working in my life or asking for help) I'm still carrying
the message by demonstrating my beliefe that no matter what's going
on I know that the answer can be found within the program and that I
trust my HP and the fellowship to help me find it.

Bill H. (Thanks for letting me share?)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: good program
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:24:48 GMT

I'm curious about what people think about if people, lets say with at least
five years of abstenance from what ever, are still smoking cigarettes are
truly working a good program? Tobacco is a deadly drug and smoking is an
addiction.

Comments?

Joni :)
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Addiction a disease? (not)
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:12:51 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes that alcoholism is
not strictly a disease. It actually is an addiction. He then goes on to
list the properties of addictions many of which run contrary to the
model of alcoholism presented in Alcoholics Anonymous. I suppose we are
to then conclude that the disease concept as presented in A.A. is
incorrect and that the alcoholism model as presented in A.A. is also
incorrect.

I will present the disease concept of alcoholism and see if we still
mesh. When we speak of the disease aspect of alcoholism, we are not
speaking of a specific germ that infects the body.  When we speak of
"disease" we mean the same thing as when the general public speaks of
"heart disease." What is heart disease? It is not a virus or bacteria.
It comes in many forms and it's manifestation varies from person to
person. It can be quite mild and inconvenient or rather severe and
catastrophic. Once we get it, we can't be cured, and its onset is often
due to a number of factors depending on a person's specific upbringing,
genes, diet, mental attitude, or all of these things or none of these
things.

So why call alcoholism a disease? The same reason we use the term heart
disease. It helps us describe something in a couple of words that would
take a book describe. (We have such a book BTW, :-) ) It also takes the
stigma off of the term "alcoholism." I don't know if many people
remember this, but alcoholism was something you didn't mention in mixed
company. It was sort of like admitting you had the clap. It had moral
implications. Calling alcoholism a disease also has the advantage of
lumping a bunch of disparate symptoms under one umbrella therefore
suggesting a single program of action, i.e. A.A.

Is alcoholism an addiction? In some cases it is, and so they might fall
into the model as outlined by the poster. Is it only an addiction? NOT!

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth)
Subject: Time to Split alt.recovery ???
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:02:45 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Time To Split?
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Keywords: 

Perhaps it is time for this newsgroup to split into groups which would more
specifically deal with the problem at hand like:

alt.recovery.aa 
alt.recovery.oa 
alt.recovery.alanon
alt.recovery.rr
alt.recovery.whiners

The first four are serious, the last a comment on the content of this
group for the last couple of months ---- snivel,snivel,snivel,
whine, complain, blame someone else, let's all go to therapy....
...blah, blah, blah, blah ......

This group is so full of BS that its hardly worth reading anymore ---
   maybe we could focus more on the issues and problem of recovery
   if the newsgroup was more focused.

Anyone agree? Disagree? (or want to throw a fit like a 3 year old
  because I called them on their crap?)

James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com


-- 
!  SIN BOLDLY (that God's grace may be bolder still) -- Martin Luther
!
! "The views expressed are neither those of Cadence or its Managment
!   (probably since I'm not certain they know I exist).
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Selfish program?
Organization: OFSA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:42:08 GMT

weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu says:

>In Alt.recovery, ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-) writes:
>|> it depends on how you define selfishness, I suppose. The program is
>|> selfish in the sense that the alcoholic is doing it for THEM, not
>|> others. Sure, we help others in the program but doing that helps us
>|> also, yes?
>|> 
>
>That has to change if I am going to stay sober.  I don't get to stay sober
>just because I want to stay sober.  I don't get to stay sober because
>some other person or institution wants me to stay sober either.  I get
>to stay sober if and only if that makes me useful to God and my
>fellow human beings.

Really?? I got sober because I was so goddamn sick and tired of being
a f*cking jerk asshole who hurt himself and his friends and family. I
got sick and tired of being sick and tired, so to speak. I got sober
for ME..not for the guy down the street, not for god, not for anyone
else. That is how I stay sober too. That doesn't preclude me helping
others or caring or loving or anything else...but number one priority
is *me* staying this way.

Steven

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: rmann@ohmeda.com (Robby Mann)
Subject: Re: Concepts of a higher power (was: i do it for myself)
Keywords: AA alcoholism
Organization: Ohmeda Monitoring Systems
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:52:44 GMT

weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss) writes:

>"Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and
>child, is the fundamental idea of God.  It may be obscured by calamity, by
>pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there.
>For faith in a Power greatre than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations
>of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

That's it.  For me also there always has been the fundamental idea of God.
The 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous showed me how to shut off all of that
noise, and calamity.  No kidding.  How could I hear the message of my Higer
Power with all that noise and racket going on.

AGNOSTIC-one holding that it is impossible to know whether God exists-

In my days before alcohol, 0 thru 12 years of age.  I do remember going to
church, learning how to pray, learning about a power greater than myself.
But somewhere along the line, I had just turned 13, I found a power that
was also greater than myself, and had very quick effects on my personality.
When I started drinking and the effects took hold, I was the person (i thought)
that every one wanted to be around.  I became the center of attention in my
own mind.  The days of God and Sunday School, and all that learning had come
to an abrupt end.  Alcohol became my Higer Power, and God became somthing that
i would bring up only in emergencies.

I did have an idea that he was still there, but there were so many other things
now.  Beer, girls, fame, fast talkin, slick lookin me.  The noise between my
Higer Power and I had just begun.

>(I started in the program believing in the group as my HP, and that kept
>me sober for a time.  I am not saying belief in those is wrong.  My concept
>of a higher power had to become more robust though.)

After a while, I used one of my sponsors as a Higer Power.

He got drunk, and I learned how dangerous Alcoholism really is.

>Phil.

Rob

>But where and how were we to find this Power?
>Well, that's exactly what this book is about.

We are men an women who normally would not mix.
From: wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:44:46 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell

In article <54779@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> decio@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gabriel Decio) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul21.231132.13148@PacBell.COM>, wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom) writes:
>
>> Stuff Deleted
>> Bill H
>
>This is my first posting in this newsgroup.  I'm an ACoA, and I have
>read that in fact there are 12 step programs for ACoA's.  I have been
>in two groups led in a totally different way, though.  I don't know
>what I would have done if someone had told me that I had to admit I
>was powerless (that's what my father tried to make me believe all my
>life!) and that I couldn't do anything by myself (another preferred
>line by my father).  
>
>As someone who does not have deities, I would have a serious problem
>admitting my powerlessness, since my recovery/discovery started the
>moment I realized I was powerful and could be in control.  How can I
>hand over the driver's seat to an entity that I don't even know
>exists?  That's pretty much like throwing the steering wheel out the
>window in the middle of the road.
>
>I mean this posting to be a friendly one.  I just do not understand
>how people with poor self-images and a devastating sense of
>powerlessness (over the self, that is) can enhance the very crux of
>their lives to seek recovery.
>
>Yours,
>Gabriel 
>


For me the admission that I was powerless over my addiction was
probably one of the most difficult things to get through early-on.
My father was an alcoholic too and I brought all of that baggage
along with me when I first got to AA. Finally I came to accept that
there are things over which I have no control ( like my addiction or
my father's for that matter), and a number of things over which I do
have some control. What the program has taught me is how to tell the
differance between the two and how to ask for help with the things I
can't handle by myself.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: I need a hug
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 08:46:45 GMT

In <1992Jul27.233536.781@redsun.pps.rain.com> dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson) writes:

>I guess that what I want is for someone to tell me that it will be OK.  I
>keep saying that to myself, but right now that just isn't enough.  Damn, I
>need a hug.  And probably what the little kid in me wants is a promise that
>I won't be alone for the rest of my life.

Stand still. Open your arms. Close your eyes. When you feel my hands on 
back close your arms and hold me tight.  As I gently rub you back you
can rub mine.  Now don't forget to breath.  ....  OK ...  Now take a
big breath, and slowly let go.  Keep one arm around my waist.  Feeling
a little better?  Good.

Diana, there's nothing wrong with you or what your feeling.  It's the
price for loving and caring for someone else.  Whenever I grow to care
deeply for someone and they go away, it hurts.  Logic may tell me its
for the best, but that won't make the feelings go away.  Eventually,
if I allow myself to experience them, they will fade.  But it takes
time.  Sometimes a long time.  I couldn't stop drinking until after
my wife had left me and when I did stop, the damage to my marriage
was irreparable.  I had loved my wife deeply, and except for the
insanity and destruction of my alcoholism I beleive we had a good
marriage, but I was divorced before I was a year sober.  Rationally,
I accepted it them, but emotionally it took me another five years
to finally left go.  First I had to learn how to cry.

Hang in there.  Its hard and it hurt, but it will pass.  An never,
never be afraid, ashamed or too proud to say I need a hug.  Its 
the best therapy for emotional pain I've ever foud.

                  Love and kiss, and a geat big hug
                      Andy
-- 
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:18:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Jul24.031100.1@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu> scp8340@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu writes:
>
>Somebody mentioned wanting this to be alt.aa  and I can understand that, from 
>a lot of the posts here a lot of folks feel like that, there seems to be a lot
>of hostility directed those who don't fit into AA, who have differnt things to
>recovery from & different recovery programs.  I for one, find a great deal of 
>support & good things in this group..maybe someone should create an alt.AA for
>those people who don't want to deal with non-AA people...just a suggestion, but
>please don't turn this into something only for AA members.
>

Sigh...  I keep noticing hostility going in two directions: from
(some, definitely not all) non-12step people towards "The Program",
be it AA or 12 step programs in general, and from (some, definitely
not all) AA'ers towards non AA'ers.

Personally, I've been in a lot of different 12-step groups - I qualify
for everything except Smokers Anonymous and Gamblers Anonymous.  But
I notice that only the first and 12th steps mention alcohol or other
drug-of-choice.   Does it really matter what we're recovering *from*?
Isn't the important thing the fact that we're recovering?

And for the non-12 step people: if you have a program of recovery, and
it works, I would like to hear about it.  I'd rather you didn't bash
the steps, as they have saved a lot of people's lives, including mine.
If you don't like the steps, fine, don't work them.  But if you try
to convince me the steps are no good, I'm not going to take you very
seriously.
-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Subject: SLOGANS SLOGANS SLOGANS
Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept.
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Keywords: alcoholism AA slogans
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:56:27 GMT
X-Posted-From: snake.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


I thought I would take the time to write at you folks a bit about my
experience and opinions on slogans in AA.

About a week ago, someone posted here a list of things to
do: Go to meetings, don't drink between meetings, expect a miracle,
work the steps, etc.  I responded with "How does one do these things?"

Many people misunderstood what I was getting at there.  I am not a
newcomer.  Personally, I did not need directions.  I have found them.
Others have not.  (So those responses were still exactly what I was
looking for.)

My personal concern is that people present the slogans before they
tell their meaning, or that they omit the meaning altogether.  Leaving
the newcomer to try and figure out what to do one his/her own.

What does "expect a miracle" mean?  I thought it meant for me to go
home and pray and my alcoholism would be cured.  Never had a clue
for the first 15 months I was sober.

Folks, the slogans are to be used as reminders of the principles
we need to live by in order that we not die, go to jail, or become
permanently insane.  Slogans should not be used as the principles
themselves.  When I know only what the slogan is, I am free to put
any twist I want on it.  And what I think, my mind-games, my self-
will, will probably put a hell of a screwy twist on that slogan.

I have often heard (in meetings and in this newsgroup) the slogan
"Take what you like and leave the rest."  Or "Take what you want
and leave the rest."  I like to be lazy.  I like to avoid pain and
trouble.  The steps looked like work, so I left them with the rest
for those 15 months.  Only later did I find out that the meaning
underneath this is that not everything I hear people tell me to do
is useful, and that some of those things will get me into trouble.

That is a far cry from "taking what I like."  Only after some time
did I begin to have the judgement to recognize a few of those things
which are useful and a few which were not.

Take care all,

Phil.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Subject: Time for a FAQ?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 23:33:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Summary: time for one?
Keywords: faq 

Well, certain threads on this newsgroup are starting to get
repetitive.  Maybe it's time for a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
that would be reposted from time to time? 

I could include my standard posting on the history of this newsgroup.

If you would like to see a good sample of a FAQ, check out the
newsgroup, news.answers, and see if you have one from alt.atheism.
There are some other good ones, but they don't come to mind at the
moment.

I would be willing to compile/edit the FAQ posting.  Since I founded
the newsgroup and have followed it closely for over 4 years I have a
pretty good idea what the newsgroup is about.  ;-)

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Things you'd want included?

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
"It's not the world that's got so much worse but the news coverage
that's got so much better." -- G. K. Chesterton
Newsgroups: alt.recovery