HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cmr@WORLD.STD.COM ("Charles Richmond, I.I.S. Corp.,              723-7695", 617)
Subject: Re: big Kanji
X-Unparsable-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 05: 04:36 TZONE
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 09:04:54 GMT

kbanner is on gatekeeper.dec.com /.4/JAPAN/DEC_JRD/???? memory fails me
for the last layer....   This is probably also on a DEC site in Europe
since it is on a CD of freeware produced in Europe by DEC (unofficially)

Charlie

*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
*  One Longfellow Place Suite 3309 , Boston , Ma. USA 02114-2431            *
*  (617) 723 7695	FAX (617) 723 6861                                  *
*****************************************************************************




On Thu, 20 Aug 1992, John B. Melby wrote:

> >I have a friend who has a sight problem which hinders his reading, this
> >includes Japanese... he wants software for a Toshiba T2000 that will
> >allow him to see (Japanese) text  magnified on the screen
> ...
>
> This is probably not what you are looking for, but "kbanner2" can be used
> to display Japanese text on a terminal emulator.  The "-s" option is
> useful for producing reasonably small text without losing too many pixels.
> I'm not sure where to FTP it from Europe though....
>
> -----
> John B. Melby
> Fujitsu Limited, Yokohama
> melby%yk.fujitsu.co.jp@fai.com
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: what happen with 'wo'?
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:07:01 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Aug12.174349.10@iris-dcp.es> mcastro@iris-dcp.es writes:
>I've just started to learn japanese -as a hobby , on my own. I've
>began with the syllabary I've found in my first japanese book,
>an old ('77) spanish book about Kanji. There I found hiragana &
>katakana for the syllabe 'wo'. Later I bought other books, an
>american one 'Everyday Japanese'  and the Kodansha compact Kanji
>guide. In those books that syllabe doesn't appear anywhere - well,
>in the Compact guide appears in the phonetic syllabary but nor in
>the ON/KUN index; in the other it only appears in the japanese 
>translations as 'o':
>       Are o misete kudasai
>          ^ ^
>so, 
>	what hapen with 'wo'?
>
>Sayonara				man.
	Well, actually, 'o' and 'wo' are pronounced the same.  Both are 
	pronounced 'o' as in 'a, i, u, e, _o_".
	Since      |
		---|---	
		   |___
		  /---|--
		 |   / 
		 |_______   basically functions just as a particle in modern
	Japanese, when both characters are written in the same way in Roman
	alphabet, it's just confusing.  That's why we write the same sounds
	in different ways to distinguish when we use Roman alphabet, as we do
	in kana letters.

	So, 'are o misete kudasai' and 'are wo misete kudasai' are promounced
	exactly the same while 'o' and 'wo' are written different.

 		Hope this helps.

						Tetsuya Nishimura
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan,soc.culture.japan
From: rbyrnes@alsvid.une.edu.au (Rod Byrnes)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: fluency
Date: 18 Aug 92 06:13:09 GMT
Organization: University of New England - Northern Rivers (Lismore)

I once spoke with a man who was a Christian missionary in Africa and he
told me that it wasn't until he could pray in the native dialect that he
considered himself fluent. The same would apply to speaking Japanese. I
thought it was an interesting idea. Hope you do too.

Ciao.
-- 
Rod Byrnes  Internet:  rbyrnes@alsvid.une.edu.au   Phone:  +61 66 203
    University of New England, Northern Rivers (Lismore) NSW Australia
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: lenam@ausch.msk.su (Maslova Elena R.)
Subject: sumimasen vs arigatou?
Reply-To: lenam@ausch.msk.su
Organization: AUSCH
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 12:03:42 +0300


>From: rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung)
>Subject: [News] Re: How to apologize correctly?
>Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:22:53 GMT
>
>....
>It's probably worth mentioning here that this, and more commonly
>"sumimasen (deshita)", are often used where the English speaker would
>use "thank you".  In essence, the "thanker" is apologizing for all the
>trouble the "thankee" went to.
>
>It's interesting that the kun reading of the character SHA in "kansha"
>("thanks", "gratitude") is "ayamaru", which means "to apologize".
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>THIS IS A BORROWED ACCOUNT!          David Luke
>   SEND ALL E-MAIL REPLIES TO:        ruser@hippo.sps.mot.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

   It raised a puzzling question for me:
in what case is better to say arigatou (thank you) and in what case -
sumimasen (thank you)? Can it be that they are used both simultaneously
in one situation? :-)
   Also I've noticed that japanese often says last phrase on the
phone - "sumimaseeeen". Is it something like "good bye" or really
apologize?
   Thanks a lot in advance.
   Lena M.




Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: ross@mecha.mit.edu (Ross Levinsky)
Subject: Uum - almost got it running...
Organization: ^$
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 05:52:45 GMT


Hi, world.

After much pain and suffering (and deafening silence from the net),
I've almost got jserver and uum running on a SunOS 4.1.2 with X11R5. I
need only a SMALL amount of help to finish it up; then I shall post a
nice, detailed article on how YOU can have complete Japaneses
text-entry/word-prcessing on your machine. Without an internationalized
OS, at that. So, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can someone give me some advice?

To wit: I figured out that uum's "uumkey" file has the key mappings. But
still, uum needs to use many function keys, and I can't seem to do this
on my Sun. X-windows takes F1, F2, and F3, and the other keys give
garbage.

Uum is complaining about my cvt_key_tbl.kt, so I think the problem is in
there. Can someone send me a correct cvt_key_tbl.kt (preferably from a
Sun) so I can finally use uum? I would be eternally grateful.

Any other advice will be welcome, too. Thanks!


				
				Ross

				ross@mecha.mit.edu
From: ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Maiko Covington)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Fluency in foreign languages
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:49:16 GMT
Organization: Under Construction, San Diego (UCSD)


	Hmmm.. fluency. It seems to my rather uneducated self that
one should be called fluent if one can function in the language as
well as someone who is your age that is from the country of the
language in question. I think you can be fluent in Japanese and
still have an accent (most foreigners I've seen who speak it do),
but if your accent is so strong that people will not understand you,
then I wouldn't consider you fluent.
	This means that it is much easier for children to become
fluent in languages partly because they simply have much less to
learn to catch up with their peers. 
	I do not think you need to know how to read to be considered
fluent. As someone else has mentioned, being able to read is called
"literate" and that is something else entirely. In my own case,
before I entered tyuugakkou I couldn't read anything at all (well, I
knew the hiragana but that's it). However, I could understand
everything on TV and on the radio, I spoke in Japanese all the time
and never had any problem understanding or being understood by
people. I just couldn't read. I would consider myself at that age to
be fluent in Japanese even though I couldn't read a textbook. 
	Still, the poster who suggested being able to read a
newspaper is a good earmark of being fluent in Japanese has a point.
I think it IS important that you be able to discuss verbally in
Japanese the sort of subjects that are mentioned in the newspaper
even if you cannot read it at all. Japanese people your age know
these sorts of words. Illiterate Japanese (yes, there is such a
thing ^_^) can talk about things they have heard on the news even if
they cannot read the paper. 
	One more point: Japanese and Chinese (two examples, I'm sure
there's more) are languages that are heavily involved with their
writing system. Hmmm... how to put this.. I just mean that if you DO
know how to read, and know the meanings of all the kanji, then when
you hear some spoken words you will unconciously know what kanji it
comes from sometimes and that can help you understand technical
words. I think that if you know how to read your speaking ability
will increase.

	Maiko Covington		ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu

P.S. It is a real peeve being able to speak Japanese and not read
it, because people all think you're retarded. I remember asking
people how to read a sign, or things like "how much is it to get to
my station from here" (since I couldn't read kanji at all) and being
yelled at things like "You are that old and you can't read???? You
are so stupid!!" and then not having my question answered (and I
have really light brown hair, too). I must say though, that one
angry gentleman gave me lots of inspiration to learn to read. ^_^
From: hcheng@Auspex.COM (Howard Cheng)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Daijobu-da!
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:04:00 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara

In article <1992Aug20.114911.800@rkna50.riken.go.jp> mtachiba@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Masahiko Tachibana) writes:
>
>If you want to know who Shimura Ken is, tune Fuji TV at 8 o'clock 
>`Daijobu-daa' on every monday evening.  You will easily find a host
>comedian with wide front, thick eye-braw in long face.   That's him.
>

Is this show still on? I remember watching that show when I stayed in Japan
two summers ago. It was one of the funniest shows I've ever seen. On other
hand, I don't remember it that well...

h.

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: "Michael Gasser" <gasser@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: `fluency in Japanese'
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:27:39 -0500

ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Maiko Covington) writes:

>	Hmmm. I don't know about this one.. I am bilingual, but I
>can sometimes watch TV or overhear conversations without being
>conciously aware that I am using one language or the other one.
>Maybe because there wasn't a large amount of time between learning
>the two, I tend to see everything as just "language" and not really
>care which one I am using. Interesting thing to think about. Perhaps
>a related item is that when I am talking with my bilingual friends
>or writing letters to them, I will often switch languages
>frequently, sometimes in the middle of sentences, and it doesn't
>bother me at all. Then sometimes people will tell me to stop it
>because I am confusing them and only then do I realize I am doing
>that bad habit again. 

>	When I can hear or think sentences like 
>"Asita I can't go yinwei kono report wo teisyutu sinakya ikenai no"
>and not think anything of it, I know I am somehow messed up. ^_^

>	Maiko Covington     ecovingt@sdcc13.ucsd.edu

You're not messed up, Maiko.  There's been some work in recent years
on bilinguals, especially Mexican-Americans in Texas, which shows that
code-switching like you're talking about is actually a skill in
itself.  The Chicanos studied seemed to pride themselves on having
this particular "lect" that they used with other Chicanos, but also
straight Spanish for conversing with Mexicans and English for
conversing with Anglos.

My 5-year-old daughter is Japanese-English bilingual, and, while she
switches to English a lot when she's speaking Japanese at home, both
her English and Japanese are fairly "pure" when she's speaking to
people she doesn't think are bilingual.



-- 
=========================================================================
Michael Gasser				Assistant Professor
Indiana University			Computer Science, Linguistics,
Computer Science Dept., LH215		Cognitive Science
Bloomington, IN 47405 USA
From: mark@hpcvxmsr.cv.hp.com (Mark Rowe)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: more on fluency
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:17:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvusn.1992Aug14.171719.10316
Reply-To: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
Organization: UDT-CV (ITO)

In a prior article Mark Crispin writes:
> Mark Rowe sets as his goal being `able to carry on a normal
> conversation without embarassing [himself] or offending others.'
> 
> Hmm -- I would think this is one of the hardest possible things to
> achieve!!!
> 
> It requires more than mere fluency in the language -- it also requires
> a detailed an intimate knowledge of idioms, body language, social
> mores, rituals.  Considering how many times native Japanese contrive
> to embarass themselves and offend others in the course of normal
> conversation due to an accidental violation of some trivial rule, a
> mere hen-na gaijin is really setting his sights high here!  ;-)

Aside from our difference on the definition of fluency, I think Mark C.
and I are in agreement on this point; however, I don't think my sights
are quite as high as this statement suggests.  I am not Japanese, and
no matter how fluent I become in the language, I am never going to be
mistaken for being Japanese.  My goal of being able to carry on a
conversation without offending others depends only partly on my acquired
skill in the language; it depends much on me being recongnized as a
gaijin and held to a different standard than would be true for a native
Japanese.

The real danger in offending others will come from getting cocky and
attempting to portray myself as having more skill in the language,
customs, idioms, etc. than I actually possess.  In this regard I agree
with Mark C. that this is not something that is necessarily reduced by
acquiring more skill with the language.  However, the people who really
have it tough are the "Americans of Japanese ancestory" who have been
raised in the United States with no more knowledge of Japan than any
other typical American kid, who then attempt to learn Japanese and use
it in conversation with native Japanese.  These people, having no
additional skill in the language, will be held to a higher standard and
as such be much more likely to give offence for a minor faux pas than
myself.  On the other hand, the "Japanese American" who can truly master
the Japanese language, customs, idioms, etc. has the ability to fully
assimilate themselves into the Japanese society and can dump the gaijin
label.  This is not something a brown-haired, blue-eyed, umpteenth
generation American kid, such as myself, is ever likely to attain
regardless of fluency.

Mark Rowe             email: mark@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com
From: toho@parc.xerox.com (Masato Toho)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:47:57 GMT
Organization: Xerox PARC, Palo Alto, CA

Hi, I'm a Japanese living in the USA for 3 years. I want to be a
fluent English speaker. Your article is very interesting for me.

As you seem to be in advanced level, I try correct your Japanese to
make more natural.

> nihongo no shaberu gaijin

nihongo wo shaberu gaijin (A forigner who speaks Japanese) or
gaijin no shaberu nihongo (Japanese that forigners speak) is correct Japanese.
(Perhaps, you wrote this subject incorrectly on perpose.)

>	Corey wuh nine diskkuh?

I would say:
"Kore ha?", "Kore ha nani?", "Kore nani?", "Kore ha nanda?",
"Kore ha nan nano?", "Kore ha nan desuka?", "Kore ha nan deshouka?",
"Kore douitta mono desuka?", "Kore ha douitta mono de gozaimasuka?",or
"Kochira ha douitta mono de gozaimasuka?",
depend on a person I'm asking and the situation.

>	Toily wuh dough-koe diskkuh?

I would say "Toire ha doko desuka?" or "Sumimasen, Toire ha?"

>	<appropriate number>-nen nihongo wo benkyo^-shinakatta no de,
>	mada heta nan desu kedo...

	<appropriate number>-nen shika nihongo wo benkyo^-shiteinai no de,
	mada heta nan desu kedo...
	(I've learned Japanese only for X years. So, it's still poor)
or
	<appropriate number>-nen nihongo wo benkyo^-shitan' dakedo,
	mada heta nan desu.
	(I've learned Japanese for X years. It's, however, still poor)

> Even in simpler situations, try more indirect (adult) speech.  When
> looking for something that you suspect is in the vicinity, instead of:
>	nani-nani ha doko desu ka.
> try:
>	Ano...nani-nani wo sagash'te'ru kedo.......

	Ano...nani-nani wo sagash'te'ru n'da kedo...... 
or	Ano...nani-nani wo sagashite iru no desuga......
or	Ano...nani-nani wo sagashite iru no desu kedo......

> Here the response is likely to be `nani-nani desu ka', to which you
> can say something like `hai, onegai-shimasu' (sharp `hai', and stretch
> out `shimasu').

Yes, if you are buying it, you can say `hai, onegai-shimasu`.  If you
are just asking a direction, `hai, soudesu` or `ee, nani-nani desu` is
better.


> Hint on whether or not you need pronunciation practice.  If you call a
> bilingual Japanese on the phone and he immediately switches to English
> upon hearing your `moshi-moshi', you need work.

When I called a bilingal American on the phone, he immediately switched
to Japanese. I need work on my English :-)

--
Masato Toho, Fuji Xerox Co.,Ltd. (at Xerox PARC)
toho@parc.xerox.com (preferred)
toho@rst.fujixerox.co.jp
"It takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place"
From: jacob@SWDC.Stratus.COM (Jacob Shen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Bell USA (Japanese Language School)
Keywords: Japanese
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:50:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

Has anyone heard of/used this Japanese language school?
The person answered the phone claimed that Bell USA is
an extension of a language school in Japan.  Any info/
comments appreciated.
From: radikkio@sissa.it
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Japanese literature (was GENJI MONOGATARI)
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:03:28 GMT
Organization: Intnl School for Adv Studies

Hi everybody.

Howard Cheng writes:

>I'm assuming the original poster is asking about good Japanese literature.
>My recommendations are Akutagawa Ryunosuke, Natsume Soseki, and Tanizaki
>Junichiro, both in translation and in the original Japanese.

	And what about Enchi Fumiko, Kawabata Yasunari and Mishima Yukio?
I think they are very interesting to read. I've understood many things on
Japan from their books. Three very different worlds shown in three 
different ways. 

	Riccardo.

	*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*
				Riccardo IANCER

RADIKKIO@TSMI19.SISSA.IT	38028::RADIKKIO		RADIKKIO@ITSSISSA
INTERNET			DECNET			BITNET
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: gang@CASTOR.RM.FCCC.EDU (Yuan Gang)
Subject: (none)
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:28:52 GMT

Japanese Language Discussion List
From: yoichi@milton.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen usage
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:45:42 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>Additional caveat on the use of the word "wakarimasu": if you are explaining
>something to someone who is (nominally, anyway) your superior, do NOT ask
>"Wakarimasu ka?" to determine if your boss understands. This can imply a lack
>of mental faculties on the part of the listener. Supposedly, "Ii 'n desu ka?"
>is a more proper way to proceed.

"Ii n desu ka?" means "are you sure?".  "Ii desu ka?" is about 
the same as "wakarimasu ka?".  I think the one you're looking 
for is something like "yoroshii de shou ka?" ("is it agreeable?").
From: sielmann@DKRZ-HAMBURG.DBP.DE ("F.Sielmann")
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: big Kanji
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:47:50 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07: 47:37 TZONE

> >I have a friend who has a sight problem which hinders his reading, this
> >includes Japanese... he wants software for a Toshiba T2000 that will
> >allow him to see (Japanese) text  magnified on the screen
> ...
>
> This is probably not what you are looking for, but "kbanner2" can be used
> to display Japanese text on a terminal emulator.  The "-s" option is
> useful for producing reasonably small text without losing too many pixels.
> I'm not sure where to FTP it from Europe though....
>
  You can get kbanner2 from ftp-site gingaku.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp (130.54.8.71)
  from any place in Europe as well.

  Hope I could help you !



  Frank Sielmann
  Univ. of Hamburg
  Meteorological Institute
  Bundesstrasse 55
  2000 Hamburg 13
  Germany

B

A
A

 > -----
> John B. Melby
> Fujitsu Limited, Yokohama
> melby%yk.fujitsu.co.jp@fai.com
>
>

A
A
A
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: perham@perham.nada.kth.se (Per Hammarlund)
Subject: Urameshii, new and old writing/spelling...
Organization: /afs/nada.kth.se/home/sans/perham/.organization
Distribution: sci
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:14:08 GMT



Hi,

I am curious about the writing of the word "urameshii" (reproachful,
kanji is included in the uuencoded part at the end).

Has it ever been written like (kanji part in capital letters)
Urameshii, as opposed to how it is written now URAmeshii?

I am just curious, I found the former writing/spelling in a haiku
book, and it can of course be a typo...

Thanks,
per

begin 664 urameshii
M"D-U<G)E;G0@<W!E;&QI;F<Z";JHI.&DMZ2D"@I/;&0@<W!E;&QI;F<@;W(@
2='EP;SH)NJBDZ:3AI-*DI H*
 
end

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: AENIX@UMSVM.BITNET (Black Mage)
Subject: Mourinng customs
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 23:11:52 GMT

I am doing some research on mourning across cultures. I was wondering if anyone
 out there knows about the different Japanese funeral customs. My wife is a "ni
honjin" so she has filled me in some, but she does not practice a religion. I w
as particularly interested in the differences (if any) between the Bhuddists an
d Shinto. All information will be really appreciated.
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: language question
Date: 16 Aug 92 03:38:28 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <Bt0B6t.J3D@comspec.com> mikem@comspec.com (Mike Martinez) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]

>I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	If you want to use this format, "kaeru jikan GA wakari masu ka" should
	be better.
				
>suitable in this situation?  (Actually, they both sound awkward to
>me - there has to be a better way to phrase this question.)
>
	You are right.  Both of "kaeru..." above sound odd to me.  I would 
	say "itsu kaeru ka wakari masu ka" even if this is not a direct tran-
	lation of "Do you know what time he will come back."


>|   Also, what is the word for "everybody"?  (subete no hito?  Hmm, isn't 
>| there a single word?)  As in "everybody drives fast", or "almost 
>| everybody likes to go to the beach", etc.
>
>Wouldn't "minna" or the more polite "minna-san" do for "everybody"?
				      ^^^^^^^^^ 
	You wanted to say "mina-san," didn't you?

	In any general statement, you should use "miNna" to refer to "everybody/	every one."  "Mina-san" is used usually to refer to the people you are
	talking to, or when you want to behavie politely to anyone.  See next
	example:

		Wow, everybody in Japan seems to drive like a crazy!  

		    	Waa, nihoN dewa miNna kichigai mitai ni uNteN suru mitai
			da neee.  (to a friend who is a Japanese or who lives
			in Japan and knows about it better than you)

			Waa, nihoN dewa miNna/mina-saN sugoi supiido de (:)) 
			uNteN suru mitai desu neee.        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^	
			(if you are talking to a Japanese, both are OK.  If you
			are giving a talk in front an audience who are Japanese,			you should stick to only "mina-saN)

	Anyway, if you are just giving a general comment about a general thing,
	miNna is usually (if not always) acceptable.


>The dreamers of the day are dangerous men,  | M. Martinez -- mikem@comspec.com
>for they may dream their dream with open    |---------------------------------
>eyes, to make it possible.                  | UUCP:  ...uunet!mnetor!
>                           - T. E. Lawrence |        lsuc!comspec!mikem


	Hope this helps.

						Tetsuya Nishimura