From: nguyen@drutx.ATT.COM (Christopher Chu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: The air of change for the better is obvious in Vietnam
Summary: Reader`s comments
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:16:44 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories - Denver, Colorado

Dear Van Dao Mai:
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| From: mai@cc.uow.edu.au (Van Dao Mai)                                      |
| Newsgroups: soc.culture.Vietnamese                                         |
| Subject: The air of change for the better is obvious in Vietnam            |
| Message-ID: <1992Sep30.021118.29991@cc.uow.edu.au>                         |
| Date: 30 Sep 92 02:11:18 GMT                                               |
|                                                                            |
| I sincerely hope that the aftermath of Western democracies will not be     |
| horrible as the vision that the doomers have been painting since the       |
| forties. I will not blame North Americans for the somewhat short-sighted   |
| views they have about Vietnam. Do not take me wrong that I support the     |
| regime over there! I know the old regime so well to hate them, but I do    |
| not think the younger generation will be that bad especially the Russian   |
| masters have gone out of business.                                         |
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I am not aware of "the aftermath of Western democracies" and "the short-
sighted views" of North Americans. I would appreciate it if you would
elaborate on these.

Also, you indicated that you did not support the current Vietnam regime;
then you said you have hope in the younger generation. Is this your point:
"the old communists are real bad, the younger will not be very bad; they
are just bad" ???
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| What Vietnam has to do is to learn what the old cultures in the West to    |
| offer. I repeat OLD, OLD, OLD .... Not the new ones such as modern         |
| American culture or British or French, etc ... As the old chinese say, you |
| do not ask your teacher to teach you. You ask him to show you the road.    |
| You then decide whether you should follow the road. Vietnam should not let |
| the West shove their mercy down her throat.                                |
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It's obvious that no country should let any others shove their mercy down
her throat :-| However, don't you think that the focus here should be how
to do that in addition to just saying it? And, what are the OLD Western
cultures? May I consider WILD WILD WEST be a part of these? :-)))
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| I am lucky to be an Australian. I am proud to say this now because I see   |
| this new home land of mine is benevolent. I cried when I learnt that the   |
| Italian POWs shipped to Australia are so grateful to this land. One told   |
| his story that when he got off the ship which was hell on Earth. He        |
| struggled to stay on his feet. As his line of POWs walked into the         |
| reception planned for them, he was so surprised that there was a long      |
| table with beautiful ladies waiting there and tea, coffee and biscuits.    |
| One lady asked him "Would you like tea or coffee?" The lady handed him     |
| a cup of tea and a piece of chocolate. The poor man broke down and cried   |
| at her feet. Perhaps this was the land of the sufferers (the convicts)     |
| that they know how to be human. I am hurt to see that young Australian     |
| people have been corrupted by Holly Wood and American violence. I now      |
| hear young Vietnamese girls growing up in this country speaking            |
| English with a naturally sweet tonge. There is no sign of cynical          |
| mentality and prejudices of older generations.                             |
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Hmmm, have you ever read about the pilgrims coming to America? Such stories
are taught in American basic history courses. Believe me, these stories are
more emotional and love-stimulating than what you wrote :-)

And, have you ever imagined how American POWs would be welcomed in America?
Again, this can only be the same or better than what you saw :(((

Finally, what about Hollywood? Hmmm, don't you think only parents who could
not find educational programs but only sexual and violent movies for their
children to view should be blamed?
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| The media here in Australian is simply EXECLLENT. We have national         |
| television the ABC and SBS (Special Broadcasting Service). These two       |
| services brings the closest to reality pictures to Australians and         |
| neighbouring regions. They are the first to confirm to Australians         |
| that the Khemer Rouge was genocidal after 12 years of Western media        |
| deceptions. As Australia and Vietnam are working intensively together      |
| to rebuild Vietnam, Americans have not realised that the relationship      |
| has been developing for about 7 years.                                     |
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I am sorry for your expression above: who could not say that the media in
their country is the best? :((( It would be helpful if you actually lived
in the USA and made these statements altogether ... @#$%$#@ Hmmm ...
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| ...................................... Vietnam has adopted Australian      |
| telecommunication standards (arguably the best in the world). You          |
+---------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^----------------+
Yeah!!! What are these telecommunication standards? I have not yet known
what Australians did in order to be given the world-class claim that you
have made. I am sorry about my ignorance, but would you please educate me
on this issue?
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| guys will have to be in Australia to see that the USA is breaking up       |
| Australian homes (together with the European of course!). The farmers      |
| are selling off. Their children are committing suidcide. You have          |
| to know that trade has no mercy! It simply breaks human heart.             |
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I am sorry to hear what you have stated. However, I am also certain that you
understand how much responsible your government have been to get your people
into such bad situation. Hmmm ... At least, the US is not as responsible for
the life of Australians as so is their government, don't you think?
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| There was an old buhhdist saying "Poverty makes devils. Prosperity         |
| makes saints". Vietnam as the whole has learnt all the illnesses           |
| of the masters (Chinese, French, American and Russian). Now it is          |
| the time to learn the good of the rest of the world to blend with          |
| her own.                                                                   |
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You know, it has become apparent to me that you could only learn the dark
sides of things; I wonder why you would bother to suggest people to go
anywhere else besides America? I think being someone's enemy does not exclude
the possibilities that you may still have something for your enemies to learn.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| ........ Once the country becomes more economically prosperous then        |
| the political scene will change.                                           |
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You've assumed that business (economy) should take a higher priority over the
government (political scene.) You know, hmmm ... are you denouncing your
previous positions and turning to support the idea of capitalism now? It must
be capitalism that that have certainly contributed to cause the problems about
which you've complained :(((
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| I had a meeting with a Dannish high commissioner to Vietnam who            |
| headed a UN delegation "Aid to Vietnam" about 3 years ago. He gave         |
| me a short but reassuring comment. He said "I have been to many places,    |
| Arab countries, Africa, etc ... Vietnam is different! It is a land of      |
| intellectuals. I have no doubt that she will rise". I personally           |
| know many who are technically more intelligent than I am). They simply     |
| do not have the chance like what the overseas Vietnamese have. I have      |
| hope that Vietnam will be the land where poetry and steel will             |
| combine to build a civilisation tougher than steel.                        |
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You know, if I were an Australian observer talking with you right now,
I would also be able to find countless number of good things and hopes to
describe the Australian, perhaps, better than what you have heard :-)))

I agree that it is important for one to realize his/her potential; however,
I think it is NO LESS important to realize the potential of others,
especially those he/her dislikes :-))) For example, one may not like the US
government because of its embargo policies; but that political disagreement
is not a reason for degrading the American democracy!!!
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| As real warriors who walk the high way of life, thy shall not entertain    |
| hatred and revenge. There are different people. Some talk but do not       |
| act. Some act but do not think. Some act with careful deliberation.        |
| This is the time of true guts and good will. With all the imminent         |
| ecological/environmental problems, trade wars, regional conflicts,         |
| etc ... it is real courage that counts. Many of you may find that it       |
| is silly of us (the Australians) to attempt to build optics factories      |
| in Vietnam and Africa to help curbing eyes diseases. Fred Hollow           |
| (a great Australian bush wacker doctor) is building portable factories     |
| to be shipped to Vietnam in 1994. I say "Bless Fred, bless Australia".     |
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Hmmm, in this case, I would say "bless Australia and bless Vietnam", too.
:-))) However, that does not mean I would support U.S. lifting economic
embargo unconditionally :-|
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| I see that the Germans have financed a children hospital to help the       |
| suffering malformed children who were the innocent victims of the          |
| American orange agent. Perhaps this is part of their business plan,        |
| but I can see that the children get some benefit. If these children        |
| do not hate America, why do Americans hate their country?                  |
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Which Americans hate their country? These people can always get a passport,
and come to live in another country, right?
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The wind of change is on the air. The communists will die out to give      |
| way to nationalism. Nationalism sounds BAD as it is the flag of Nazi       |
| Germany and many other totalitarian regimes. However to see the true       |
| reality of nature, one must go back to common sense. Can one build         |
| a stable structure with  crumbling building blocks? Of course the          |
| answer is NO. A nation must be strong before it can participate in         |
| world democracy.                                                           |
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Now you are talking "strong nation" before "democracy." What do you mean
by this priority?  Also, hmmm, "crumpling" blocks of what? What created
these conditions? @#$%$#@ ??? And, what do you mean by "world democracy"?
Does this mean every nation can have representatives in the UN bodies and
UN members can have their vote in any decision that UN officially make @#$$#@ 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| ................ To be strong it has to avoid disunity. This implies       |
| discipline (like the Japanese) and hard working (like the south Korean).   |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
I think that we should not underestimate the potential of the Vietnamese
as a people. Obviously, the Vietnamese physically beat the best fighter of
the world, namely the American!!! Also, I think the Vietnamese can be trained
to be more disciplined than the Japanese: they could live in the worst
economical and political conditions under the current regime. Also, the
Vietnamese are much harder working than the Korean: they could work and live
as hard as slaves in places such as Siberia to pay for their national debts!!!
You know, our people just need good leaders but not anything else!!!
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| However the Vietnamese has to learn how to be humane as well. Shall I      |
| say "like the old Australian"?. Some people out there still have hatred,   |
 | revenge and ill feelings for Vietnam as a nation, soon they will          |
| surely be the insignificant echoes of the past. As you sit in your         |
| comfortable lounge and drink your coffee today, please remember that       |
| there are people just as nice as you are out there. They have nothing      |
| but malaria, empty stomach, memories of lost ones, etc ... They also       |
| ask themselves why the foreign powers do not have mercy on them            |
| despite the fact that they do not hate these powers.                       |
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I am sorry to say, but I do not think your point of view is representative
:((( In fact, I know many who strongly believe that democracy can't be possible
within communism, especially communism that are being exercised by the current
Vietnam regime.

Let us ask ourselves a fundamental question as who are responsible for taking
Vietnam to where it is today after 17 years without a civil war? Is this the
responsibility of all Vietnamese people, the US government and its embargo or
the Vietnamese government? Regardless of how debatable this question may be,
there is no reason for a possible answers to object the desire for democracy
which is clearly lack in Vietnam.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | For those in Australia, please watch the documentary coming soon          |
| on Australian SBS (this Friday?). It will tell you more about the          |
| people in Vietnam and how desperate they are in waiting for the            |
| USA to lift the embargo. This is really an insult to injury. I can see     |
| a clear path to a friendship between Australia and Vietnam. Australia      |
| is getting herself totally integrated into the ASEAN region.               |
|                                                                            |
| Gee, I am glad that I am Australian!                                       |
|                                                                            |
| Van Dao Mai                                                                |
| Wollongong Australia                                                       |
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I personally support the lifting of embargo given that the current
government denounce communism, renounce the communist power, and commit
to have democracy be established in Vietnam. I believe that lifting the
embargo without any conditions will not make a new or stronger Vietnam:
this country, even when given such condition, will still be one that is
always slow, poor, and has no chance to stand straight up by itself as a
peer to other developed nations in the world.

Don't be surprise to hear my words above. I really do not know what I can
expect from ignorant leaders, those who could only characterize the fighters
but not the intellects, and those who fail to understand the values of 
democracy and economics trends in the new world. The future of a country
under the ruling of these leaders or their offsprings, whoever they are, is
very clear; we have all seen all of it under the test of communism for a
duration of no less than 17 years. The air of change for the better will not
be obvious in vietnam if the political climate and the exorsism of the
uneducated communists still persist.

Sincerely yours,

Chris
From: tlee@hpldsla.sid.hp.com (Thinh Lee)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 01:45:50 GMT
Subject: Re: [SOC] Normalization, trade embargo, and the likes
Organization: HP Scientific Instruments Division - Palo Alto, CA