HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jpersons@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John C Persons)
Subject: Re: Statement Condemning Musical Forms (was: is music amoral)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:07:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.133231.7207@cbnews.cb.att.com> ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
> 
>>  Wheras it is apparent from the study of music history and music theory
>>  that music is a language that conveys thoughts and emotions without
>>  words, and  
>
>Whereas it is apparent from unsubstantiated statements that the authors
>of said statements convey their idiocy, be it hereby resolved to 
>snicker at such statements and to hoot derisively at all such 
>obviously "apparent" truths.
>
>Furthermore, let it be noted by the chair that the notion of conveying
>"thoughts" without "words" is a nonsensical idea, or emotion, or
>something, and that linguists all over the world are probably
>chortling behind their lexicons at the very ludicrousness of the
>thought, or emotion, or whatever.  
>

Andy!!!  You've never heard of telepathy?

>
>>  Be it further resolved that we believe it is wrong to attempt to 
>>  communicate the things of God and His Word through a style of music that
>>  in its structure is promoting the very opposite of the truth of God, and
>
>As is clearly expounded in Levitations 3, where we see that God likes
>only like I - IV - V chord progressions and the gloriousness of the
>Beach Boys' harmonies.  And that's the objective truth.
>

Uh, I believe that is in First Opinions chapter 3.


>>  Be it finally resolved that we strongly advise that careful scrutiny be
>>  given to the music of our church fellowships and schools to be sure that
>>  it follows the time-honored formula of great music -- beautiful melody,
>>  glorious harmony, and flowing rhythm
>
>All of which can be easily determined by the Beautiful/Glorious/Flowing
>Scale, first devised by Rene Descartes but later modified by Bob Larson, 
>which plots the value and moral integrity of music on a three-dimensional 
>grid.  Recent scholars, however, have taken issue with the scale,
>and have proposed an alternate Really Pretty/Awesome/Gently Undulating
>Scale, which is gaining wide acceptance in some Evangelical and/or
>Fundamentalist circles in eastern Europe.  

Personally, I think more formula music is *exactly* what we need.




Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: lmc@cs.cornell.edu (Linda Marie Competillo)
Subject: Need a Scripture reference
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:38:29 GMT


Yes, this IS sort of music-related. Can anyone give me a scripture 
reference to back up a claim I heard last night that Satan was "in charge" 
of the music in heaven before his fall? I'd sure appreciate a reply today
if someone's got it.

Thanks bunches,

  Linda 
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Re: TANGENT: I would like some terms explained.
Followup-To: rec.music.christian
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:49:38 GMT

In article <Bt7291.7BF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid) writes:
:
:Holiness.  (A definition, please, from someone in a Holiness church?)

I am sorry to have forgotten that one since it is one which many folks use
in conjuntion with my denomination.  

The holiness movement is typically the tag used for those groups which believe
that the Christian experience consists of two "crisis" experiences.  The
first crisis experience is that in which one who has no relationship with
Christ realizes his sins and asks forgiveness for them.  The second crisis
is explained as the encounter between one whose sins have been forgiven and
the Holy Spirit when the forgiven person realizes that even with one's
sins forgiven, there is a sin nature still at war inside them.  The
encounter between the person surrendering that 'right to be in charge'
over to the Holy Spirit, so that 'not I, but Christ lives in me' as Paul 
describes it, is often termed 'entire santification' or 'heart holiness'.

The movement typically is based on the preaching of John Wesley during the
18th (I think) century.

Let's make sure that any theological debates on the terms move to another
appropriate newsgroup.  But I think defining the terms that are sometimes
used in describing one's denominational affiliation are useful so that
one gets a feel for the emphasis that a fellowship has.  I have found 
myself that music styles differ between denominations as well as between
individual churchs.  Most fellowships have some sort of common set of
songs/hymns/spiritual praises that they jointly lift up during worship
services.
-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
America Online: lvirden@aol.com
From: harling@pictel.com (Dan Harling)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: CCM:  Ministry or Career? (was Re: Amy Grant's "Sexy" comment)
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:13:38 GMT
Organization: PictureTel Corporation

In article <1992Aug11.231158.26267@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> hill@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Hill) writes:
>In article <85541@netnews.upenn.edu> alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (The WILD Samoan) writes:
>>This is very interesting. I just recently had a discussion with some friends
>>of mine who generally do not listen to CCM because it just isn't good
>>enough music...So I submit to you that if you want artistic Christian
>>music, you should look to the "secular Christian" bands. If they can succeed
>>in the secular world, that generally says a lot about their musical talent.
>>If you want ministry, look to CCM.
>
>Wrong.  (Always IMHO.)  You couldn't ask for better artistic music than
>King's X (who asked you, Steiner?  :^)  ), and you couldn't ask for a more
>edifying, uplifting, and *encouraging* song than "Dream in my Life".  I
>don't see any evidence of a schism between art and ministry here.  (Finger
>me for the lyrics.)

I was under the impression that King's X was generally considered a
"secular Christian" band, not in the CCM field.  Reasons that I have
heard for this include the fact that they are not on a "Christian"
label, and that their lyrics are not "blatantly Christian" for some
people's tastes.

If this is the case, King's X is a case in point, not a counterexample,
as far as art is concerned.  As far as "ministry" is concerned
(whatever that really means), you get it where you can find it;
apparently more people find it within the CCM circle than among
"secular Christian" bands.  However, I agree that the music of King's X
is a good example of both art and ministry.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                 PictureTel, but they ought to be!
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Alan S. Mazer)
Subject: Re: New Amy Grant song
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:36:16 GMT

In article <66209@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray) writes:
>I just read in the paper this morning that Amy Grant does a cover of 
>Elvis' 'Love Me Tender' for the soundtrack of 'Honeymoon in Vegas' or
>something like that, a new movie.

And she calls herself a Christian...

( 100 * :-) for the humor-impaired )
-- 
 
-- Alan                        # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
   ..!ames!elroy!alan          # because breakfast is the most important meal
   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov     # of the day.
From: drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral?
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:17:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: ponder.drice.714212256
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of North Texas

My brother told me a funny story about a preacher he heard speaking
on the morality of music.  He played a particular rhythm he said was
"sinful."  Later on in his message he played an example of "good
music", Mozart's 40th Symphony.  It contained the _same_ rhythm
pattern and the preacher didn't even realize it.

--
Keith
drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu. (Claude W. Anderson)
Subject: Know of a good church in Denver ?
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:44:33 GMT

Distribution: usa

Yes i know that this is somewhat tangential to r.m.c, but it is the most  
likely place to find this info.  So many people have posted recently about  
the supportive nature of this group, it is true. I hope you'll bear with me.

I'll be in Denver on Sunday, and I would like to find a good church to  
attend.  Prefereably one with good, contemporary music (thus I can almost  
excuse posting to this group).  I am not at all hung up on what denomination  
it is, or whether it is charismatic or not, as long as it is an alive,   
Bible-believing church.  I will be near University of Denver and i will not  
have a car, so it needs to be within a couple of miles of U of D.  

You can send me email so that no further bandwidth is wasted by posting 
a response.

--
Claude Anderson
(812)877-8331
anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu    -  NeXT mail welcome
From: alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (The WILD Samoan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: TANGENT: I would like some terms explained.
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:08:28 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug19.124854.7357@axion.bt.co.uk> jsharp@axion.bt.co.uk (Jonathan Sharp) writes:
>Like wise the term "Charismatic" simply means "spirit" or "of the spirit"
>and is usually used in the respect of spiritual gifts.  There is a sense
>therefore in which all chistians are "Charismatic" (-: as it the presence of
>Him in our lives, and the evidence of His fruit which is the sign of a 
>Christian.) The word "charisma" of course has the same root but is
>normally used in a secular sense of a strong personality.

"Charismata" I believe means "gift", having the root "charis" which is
translated as "grace". This is the root of the word "charity".
So a charismatic person is gifted personality-wise,
or has a certain degree of social grace, whereas a Charismatic believes in
using the Gifts of the Spirit(?). Anyone with better Greek training please
enlighten.

Grace and Peace,
Titi
The B.I.C. (Brother-in-Christ)
            ^^^^^^^ (Just so's y'all don't get confused about my gender :-)

--
    /~/         |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
 /~~  ~/ MARANA |Titiimaea "The WILD Samoan" \ President, founder, and sole   |
 ~/ /~~   THA!  |Alailima@Eniac.SEAS.UPenn.Edu\ member of the Penn Samoan Club|
 /_/            |______________________________\______________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jpersons@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John C Persons)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:40:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.170543.2441@rambo.atlanta.dg.com> wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins) writes:

>
>   An example I gave of "fleshly" is the urge you get to mash down the accelerator
>   in your car when the heavy metal music comes on.  


I think it's adrenaline, that wonderful God-given substance in
our bodies.  I have the same tendency when singing "He's the Mighty
One of Israel," for example.  (Hosanna-type non-heavy-or-even-light-
metal praise song)

IMO,
John



Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: new T-Bone album?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:12:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.213839.21903@eng.umd.edu> yag@eng.umd.edu (Eric Funk) writes:
>
>I think that there is a new T-Bone album out, the local progressive
>station has been playing ``tear the building down'' in light rotation.
>Anyone with more details or reviews?

T-Bone's new album is called "The Criminal Under My Hat."  I like it a
lot.  I found T-Bone's previous album, "The Talking Animals," to be a
bit of a disappointment.   "The Criminal Under My Hat" is a nice return
to form, and features the kinds of things that we all know and love
about T-Bone - the caustic wit, the bizarre lyrical approach (sort
of a combination of _Mad_Magazine_, Bob Dylan, and The Bible), and
tons of loud, rockin' guitars.  

I'm currently working up a batch of reviews for r.m.reviews, and I'll
cross-post my take on T-Bone's album, as well as my review of Peter
Case's recent "Six Pack of Love," to r.m.christian as well.  

>-- 
>EFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEFEF
> 		    \ | /
> [YAG]--------------  * -  yag@eng.umd.edu (N3BYP)  
> 		    / | \

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
From: rothfuss@addvax.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: bands like REM
Date: 17 Aug 92 05:13:41 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug17.034630.6296@cs.tulane.edu>, jlin@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu (Jonah Lin) writes:
> 
>  My sister wants to know if there is a Christian alternative to REM. She
> doesn't like a singer with a high voice. Could someone please post some
> suggestions?? Thanks.

Try Adam Again.  Their lead singer (Gene Eugene) has similar low key drawl.
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:39:10 GMT
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <1992Aug19.182908.896@news.cs.brandeis.edu> aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>In article <drice.714102889@ponder>, drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
>People have a really hard time with this.  I don't understand.  PEOPLE are evil,
>PEOPLE bring glory to whatever god they serve, etc.  How can one assign

This sounds very much like the NRA`s argument that GUNS don't kill people, 
PEOPLE do.  

>One CANNOT assign the traits of individuals to objects!

I'd hate to be the one to tell God that.  He again and again condemned the
Isrealites for fashioning idols (objects).  To God, anyway, these "objects"
carried traits that he didn't want them messing with.  By the same token,
musical pieces may just be "objects", but the individuals that made them
along with their content certainly CAN be assigned traits.

>
--
Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
From: lmc@cs.cornell.edu (Linda Marie Competillo)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Recommendation for video...
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:26:23 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <1992Aug19.203117.17741@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> wing@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (wing.ho.choy) writes:
>This question may not be related to Christian music, but I can't find
>any other Christian forum.
>
>Anyway, our church are organizing a Summer Camp for Junior/Senior High kids.
>And the theme of the camp is to let them experience the Exodus story.
>The kids do not know the exact theme of the camp.

>On the first night of the camp, before our Passover Feast, we would like
>to show a movie/video related to some kind of mystical journey to the kids 
>to set the tone for the camp.  The movie can be either secular/Christian.
>Please let me know if you have any suggestion for the movie.  Thanks.
>
>	Wing 
>
>	whc@karin.att.com


How about Disney's "Flight of the Navigator" or "Raider's of the Lost Ark" or
that movie whose title escapes me but it's about a dog and 2 other animals 
who make a long journey together, maybe "The Incredible Journey" or something 
like that?

Have fun - it sounds really neat!

     Linda
From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:11:30 GMT
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <1992Aug20.123353.19632@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jpersons@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John C Persons) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.113910.29308@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug19.182908.896@news.cs.brandeis.edu> aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>I'd hate to be the one to tell God that.  He again and again condemned the
>>Isrealites for fashioning idols (objects).  To God, anyway, these "objects"
>>carried traits that he didn't want them messing with.  By the same token,
>>musical pieces may just be "objects", but the individuals that made them
>>along with their content certainly CAN be assigned traits.
>>
>
>I doubt that it was the object itself that God objected to, i.e.
>I don't think there is anything wrong with a statue of a cow.  What
>he objected to was that the people were worshipping a false god.  
>As you say, he condemned the Israelites -- people -- for making and
>worshipping the idols.

Exactly my point, John.  Those that say music is nothing more than a bronze
cow that sits on a bookshelf are deceived.  Music is not some bauble that
we take out and have no (emotional, spiritual, mental, take your pick)
attachment to.  Music can not be described as some object devoid of meaning.
To do so is denying reality. 

>
>John
>
>
>


--
Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
From: kathy@duke.cs.duke.edu (Kathy Redding)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Music for use in Liturgies
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:25:17 GMT
Followup-To: aeg@vixen.uucp (24104-gronczewski)
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

(I guess I should re-introduce myself.  I've been reading rmc since the
beginning, just rarely have time to post.  My last post (last week) it had
been so long since I posted that I forgot to include my signature!  Prior to
that,iIt's been so long since my last post, I doubt anyone remembers me. Plus,
there are so many new folks, I KNOW they don't know me!  I really enjoy this
group, and appreciate the manner in which most of the disagreement/different
opinions are expressed.  The humility I've seen expressed here on so man
occasions when one is "flamed" or disagreed with, shows real committment to
exemplifying Christ.   And you've really stretched me to grow in my own walk
with Christ; and for that I thank you.  Now, on to the actual subject of
this post....;=>  )

Sorry, Adam, but I don't know how to include previous or parts of previous
posts within mine.  But you will know what I'm talking about....

Word Music has just come out w/ a Praise & Worship songbook that has a
hardbound Worship Leader's edition, along w/ numerous other instrumental
editions.  It costs about $25 and is well worth the money spent, IMHO. The
Worship Leader's edition has 22 (I think) appendices (sp?) w/ all kinds of
worship formats using the choruses from the songs onf the book. It has
several indices (sp?) listing the choruses alphabetically, by tempo, key,
subject,etc. It has several "helps" sections for hints on making your worship
service run smoother.  In addition to that, I believe that the Worship
Leader's edition also has the chord symbols on most, if not all, songs.
I highly recommend it to every Worship Leader that uses contemporary
choruses & songs from Hosanna Integrity, Maranatha, etc.  The choruses are
very conducive to use in any size group, w/ any grouping of instruments.

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, Adam, or not.  I don't
come from a high liturgical background, but from what you described I think
this may be of use to you--not just the songs in the book, but the support
material in the back.  (By the way, I have absolutely no affiliation w/
Word....I was just exposed to it at the International Worship Leader's
Institute in Dallas, TX this last month, put on by Lamar Boschman
Ministries.  Wonderful teaching!)  At the beginning of the appendices is an
explanation of what is available in the following pages, and how the info
can be used.  I hope this will be of help to you, Adam.  By the way, your
local Christian bookstore may not have these in stock because they are so
new.  If not, ask them if they will order one for you on approval.  Then if
you don't think it is what you are looking for, they have a sample for other
Worship Leaders to look at--and probably buy!.  God bless!

Kathy Redding
Wearer of Several Support Staff Hats
Computer Science Dept.
Duke University
Durham, NC
From: tbromley.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Amy Grant controversy
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:34:54 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

I seem to have come in late and missed the beginning of this thread.  
Could someone identify the issue of People in which the offending quote 
appears?

BTW, I enjoy Amy's music as a nice wholesome alternative to the garbage 
that's out there.  My favorite video so far is Every Heartbeat.

Tom
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: elw@jaguar.sky2 (Ellis Workman)
Subject: Re: Falwell, Ankerberg, Walter Martin...
Reply-To: elw@jaguar.sky2
Organization: Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN. Campus
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:36:10 GMT

In article 10395@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante) writes:
In article <drice.714020670@ponder> drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
>In <satoell.920815200239@eng.auburn.edu> satoell@eng.auburn.edu (Ellen Ayumi Sato) writes:
>
>
>>Could anybody tell me who Jerry Falwell, John Ankeberg, and Walter Martin are?
>>I've heard their names a number of times, but haven't read any book they've

>>  Since someone has already talked about Jerry, I'l take John and Walter.
>>  John Ankeberg is a TV show host. Well, sort of like a Christian version
>>  of Donahue. Very sensationalistic. I've never seen his show, but went to
>>  a friend raising dinner of his with a friend of mine, who used to watch
>>  his show.
  
>>  Boy was I uncomfortable! We have a nice dinner provided by a local
>>  family chain restaurant. We then watched a slick video about his show.
>>  Then he started teling us about his financial woes. They took a collection.
>> About 10 minutes later, he siad it wasn't enough. So he started badgering
>>  the audience, "especially you men out there who own your own business."
>>  I think we ended up with 2 collections, maybe even 3. Excuse me while
>> I get sick.... I've had any desire to watch him after this.




The first time I saw Ankerberg (several years ago) I was astounded at the
quality of the program.  My immediate reaction was that "this is to good
to be on TV".  The format of the show was an informal debate with various 
unbelievers, "newagers", and  "cults", usually with an well-known evangelical
(Walter Martin, D. James Kenedy, Walter Kaiser, JW Montgomery) representing orthodox
Christianity.  The first show I saw had Walter Martin debating a Roman Catholic
priest (Mitchel Pacwa sp ??) on the reformation doctrine of justification by faith.
In another series Walter Kaiser of Trinity Ev. Divinty School debated Rabbi Kushner
(Bad Things Happen to God People) about whether Jesus was the suffering servant
described in Isaiah. 

Over the last several years (since the Baker and Swaggart debacles) 
he seems to have fallen into financial troubles and now seems to spend most of
his air time asking for donations and selling video tapes of previous series.`
Where I am he is on Cable at 10:30pm on Sunday Night.


Ellis Workman
elw@mayo.edu