From: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal article by ImranAnwar
Reply-To: jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 06:10:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.174704.21882@oakhill.sps.mot.com>,
fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt) writes:
> In article <C0AIns.L0q@uceng.uc.edu> mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
writes:
> 
> ...deleted...
> 
> >
> >This is true that their share to to top govt post and post gradaute degree 
> >is smaller.  But this proves nothing.  The Rajputs in India form more than
> >12% of the population.  They too have a much smaller share in these two
areas.
> >It means that either
> >1. They are not interested in those jobs
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> 
> This is the classic excuse used by white-supremacists and other bigots
> when explaining away the reasons why blacks in the USA are so far
> behind whites.  I contend that any human be they hindu, muslim, rajput
> or sikh is interested in self-betterment . Even villagers will sometimes 
> save up and sacrifice in order to educate at least one child. 



One can study the phenomenon without coloring our perspective with religious
labels. There's a pitfall in painting all problems with a Muslim-Hindu
colour and can only lead to useless dialogue.




> 
> >or
> >2. They do not have the educational traditions to compete with others,
> >   in India getting these opportunities is really difficult.  All have
> >   competative examinations, and the examiners do not know the identity
> >   of the examinees.  So there is no question of bias.
> 
> Well, even if that were so, assuming that there is no genetic weakness
> that is manifest in the muslim population, we should see around 12% of
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> all IIT students and faculty be muslim right ? I believe the figure is
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


One could expect that in general. But it obviously isn't the case. 

The problem is not due to active discrimination in admission to these
professional institutes. As Manoj pointed out, the competitive examinations
have a pretty credible system of preventing malpractice. In any case there
has been no serious allegation by any muslim group in India of any active
discrimination against them in these professional examinations. 

Regarding the civil services and armed forces where interviews determine
selection to a large extent, there may be instances of discrimination on an
individual basis, which is really hard to prove either way. It would be
incorrect to insinuate however that there is state sanctioned discrimination
against muslims.


The problem is that we always tend to pit the muslims against the hindus when we
study literacy and economic patterns. If the Partition had not taken place and
all the rich and/or educated muslims were considered, the image of the muslim
community would be much better, even though there are approx. the same number of
muslims who are poor and illiterate. The point is that we are comparing
poor/illiterate muslims with rich educated hindus and come up with
distorted conclusions. 

The Indian muslim community as a whole today is in a bad shape but so are many
others of other religious communities including hindus. This is a very human
problem and not necessarily a religious problem. Trying to give it a purely
religious colour only serves to fuel one's own prejudice and need for fitting
stereotypes.

Poverty, illiteracy and to some extent Partition have played a part in the
vicious cycle. Lack of ROLE MODELS in the muslim community because of the
abandonment by the educated elite who migrated to Pakistan, is IMO one big
factor. Continued islolation from the mainstream fuelled by frequent riots
and the Kashmir/Pakistan problem are also some of the catalysts.

That is not to say that the muslim community is in a state of penury. 




> not even a quarter of that.  India has this interesting habit of
> assigning token minority members to various "high posts" in an attempt
> to make the myth of secularism seem real.  Almost every argument about
> this that I have had with some of my Indian buddies ends with a
> statement of the form: "well Muhammad Ali Falana Dumkana is the chief
> minister of Airaa Waigharaa." This insults my intelligence, am I
> expected to believe that a random political appointee will accurately
> reflect the views and opinions of muslims in India ?!?  



India is not a land of utopia. It is faced with some really very complex 
problems. No one has any doubts about that. The problems of the muslim
community is linked inextricably with its history, the current turmoil, its
owm failings and its relations with other communities as a whole. The
problem however is not desperate. 





> 
> ...deleted...
> 
> >
> >Sikhs are the largest subgroup in the Indian army, they are also one of the
> >richest communities in India. The CM of Punjab is a Sikh and the number 2
man
> >in the Indian govt is a Sikh. I dont know what persecution he is talking 
> >about.
> 
> Oh come on! Is the massive sikh uprising a "little trouble stirred up by 
> the foreign hand" ? Face the truth, India and Pakistan are both rapidly 
> becoming balkanized into religious/ethnic/national subgroups.
> 
> ...deleted...
> 
> >The demolition of the Mosque may be preplanned, but that does not mean
> >PVNR knew about the plan in advance.  Kalyan Singh was responsible to
protect
> >the Mosque, which he promised to do, there was no reason for him to take
> >precautions from his side.  When the BJP did not live upto its promise
> >did he not dismiss all the BJP govts, arrest their leaders and ban their
> >grass root organisations.  Also he does not criticize the GOP and GOB
> >for not taking any measures to safegaurd their minorities, it was more
> >obvious to them that there was going to be a retialation. I also suspect
> >he does not know the meaning of genocide.
> 
> 
> Pakistan has already started rebuilding damaged temples. India has 
                                                            ^^^^^^^^
> added insult to injury by permitting the hindu hordes who destroyed 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



 The matter is sub-judice and the ruling giving by the HC in Allhabad 
 has its qualifications. Its unfair to pass a judgement on the ruling without
 reading it first. As far as the court is concerned, its a civil case
 and each side is free to appeal against the ruling. The court has not yet
 closed the case and has not yet decided the issue in favour of the VHP or
 the BMAC/Wakf board.




> the Babri Masjid to pray there.  The GOI has mouthed well-meaning 
> slogans to pacify muslims but the truth is far from the pretty 
> picture that has been painted.  Watch for a temple where the masjid stood
> in 1993.



Its my opinion that the Congress I is playing its own game and has been as 
guilty as the BJP in this issue.



> 
> ...deleted...
> 
> >
> >Does he mean to say that killing for economic gain is acceptable?  
> >The signal that Ayodhia sends is that no fundamentalism will be accepted in
> >India.  The ruling and all the opposition parties came against the BJP,
> >all Indians have condemned this action.  Even Advani said that Dec 6 has
> >been the saddest day in his life, remember this is the guy whose family
> >had to leave Pakistani Sindh in a hurry.  
> >
> 
> The signal that Ayodhya sends is that it's perfectly OK to persecute 
> those "darn invading muslims."  Destroy their historic mosques and you'll 
> get a ceremonial tap on the hand and a wink followed by the construction of 
> a temple.  GOI's hypocrisy on the Ayodyha issue has been simply incredible.
> India has a huge standing army, knowing how much radical hindus love and 
> respect the muslim minority, it is beyond comprehension that the GOI would not
> have mobilized a giant, pre-emptive security force just in case.  The 
> excuses of a mob having gone crazy unexpectedly make me shake my head.  
> If Indian police do not know anything about a mob of 100000 religious radicals
> assembling in a random town where there is a big religious problem, then 
> India must not only be in trouble but close to anarchy.


There has been a serious lapse on part of both the central and the state govt.
in this aspect. I have myself as have many other muslims I know, concluded
that the Congress in its classic act of saving its seat in govt. decided
to soothe its hindu vote-bank and distance itself from the muslim community,
who have been accused of being unfairly pampered at the cost of hindu
interests.






> 
> ... deleted... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Standard High-Tech Disclaimer: NOTHING  in the above article has the slightest
> relationship to reality. If any reality correspondences are found, please 
> notify me IMMEDIATELY. Any threats, abuse or stupidity of any kind is purely 
> UNintentional. These are MY Opinions NOT my employer's.



--Javed
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan