From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:43:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov05.220613.27513@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>In article <LJMORLY.92Nov5110125@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>|> In article <1992Nov02.193250.25838@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>     [The context of this discussion is Mike Brown's theory that modern Judiasm is revisionist]
>
>[Laura]
>

[deleted to save space - hem]

>|> 
>|> > |>      TRADITIONAL JUDAISM AS WE KNOW IT TODAY IS THE RELIGION OF  THOSE  WHO
>|> > |>      REJECTED YESHUA.  It is a decided reaction *against* faith in Him.  It
>|> > |>      is a system which has been  reconstructed  to  negate  and  counteract
>|> > |>      Messiah's  real  claims.   That's  why traditional Jews throughout the
>|> > |>      ages have stumbled over the person of Yeshua.  But in the beginning it
>|> > |>      was not so.
>|> 
>|> > You need to demonstrate this reconstruction.
>|> 
>|> Hillel Markowitz did it already.
>|> 
>I doubt that he'd agree.

Thank you Rob.  I found it difficult to try to figure out why she
would think that I demonstrated her *entire* statement might have
some validity.  If she thinks that I said it explicitly, then she
is wrong.  If I said something that might have (in error) been
taken that way then maybe a clarification is in order.  Let's take
the paragraph apart piece by piece.

[reformatted for ease of reading]

-- TRADITIONAL JUDAISM AS WE KNOW IT TODAY IS THE RELIGION OF  THOSE  WHO
-- REJECTED YESHUA. 

This part may be considered true in that Jewstoday are (at least in
belief) descended from those who have rejected the false messiahs
that have arisen throughout the ages.  In today's world, the main
"messiah" whose adherents remain at all in significant numbers are
the xians.  Thus Judaism as we know it today is the religion of
those who have refused to convert to xianity (or islam, or
hinduism, or ...).  This sentence while literally true can give the
wrong impression (as indeed expressed in the next sentence).

-- It is a decided reaction *against* faith in Him.

Judaism does react against belief in y"shu just as it react against
belief in Buddha, or Siva, or Baal, or Zeus, or Shabetai Tzvi,  or
Frank, or ...

However, the reaction is because of what Judaism is, Judaism does
not exist (in our day, in the past, or in the future) *because* of
this reaction to a set on incompatible claims.

-- It is a system which has been  reconstructed  to  negate  and  
-- counteract Messiah's  real  claims.

And finally we come to the completely false statement which
implicitly makes the original claim that Judaism rejects (note the
word real).  The system which we call Judaism has not been
"reconstructed" to deny anyone's legitimate claims.  A set of
claims made by another religion has been rejected because they are
incompatible with the belief system of Judaism.  Arguments have
been made whose primary focus are the xian claims, but that is
because the claims have been made (over and over and over and over
and ...).  Had a similar missionary group been as active throuoght
the centuries in the same way for another religion, we would have
seen a similar corpus of arguments develope focussed on those
claims.  Judaism is the same in all cases, it is the specific
arguments and subjects that are shaped by the nature of the
disputants.

-- That's  why traditional Jews throughout the
-- have stumbled over the person of Yeshua.  

Many people including Rob Levene and Rob Strom have demonstrated
the argumernts to which this sentence can legitimately be
attached.  I hope I have clarified a little why this sentence
cannot be attached to the original paragraph above.

-- But in the beginning it was not so.

Again, taken out of the context in the original paragraph above
this sentence might apply.  That is, originally the nature of the
sect that grew up might have been ignored until it became dangerous
because the reasons for rejecting it were obvious to everyone.
Afterwards the arguments showing how and why it did not fit into
the beliefs of Judaism had to be constructed and still later
phrased in such a way as to allow the Jews to continue living.  But
I don't think I need to recapitulate the history of the past
millenia.

One example would be the way this newsgroup has become active.
Many of us have better things to do than constantly post
refutations of the missionary activity.  We would much rather spend
our time, money and efffort on the charities and day school's in
our communities which require so much rather than on worthy efforts
such as Jews for Judaism.  We would much rather that there was no
necessity for such organizations.  But the missionaries will not
leave us alone and have invested significant amounts of money in
attempting to convert ignorant Jews.  As long as these efforts
continue, we must still respond.

>
>
>-- 
>Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
>IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

____________________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
| H_Markowitz@att.com |  The fish are the Jews, Torah is the water |
|_____________________|____________________________________________|

And we do not WANT to join you on the dry land (said the fish).
Newsgroups: alt.messianic