From: dzeigler@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Daniel R Zeigler)
Subject: The "Mary" flame-war: Let's apply Romans 14 (for a change!)
Summary: Mary, Mary -- we're * so * contrary on this list!
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:16:21 GMT

What follows is an attempt to douse some of the Catholic/Protestant discussion 
over the past week and a half--at least the part of it that continues to 
generate more heat than light.  Here's where I'm coming from:  Although a 
disciple of Jesus, I claim no allegience either to Catholicism or 
Protestantism.  As far as I know, I have no stake in finding out who's "right" 
or "wrong" on these issues.  I'm also not in a position of authority; I'm just 
a brother who's getting rather sad over these squabbles.  With that in mind:

(1) Can virtually all of us who claim to be Christians agree on the following
points about Mary, the Mother of Jesus?

-- She was a terrific Christian lady
-- The Bible has some great things to say about her, especially in the early 
   chapters of Luke and John
-- She is a very good role model in her many Godly qualities, both for women
   * and * men
-- As our sister in Christ, she deserves (at the very least) to be treated with
   respect, love, appreciation, and dignity

Fair enough so far?


(2) We do not, on the other hand, agree on the following ideas about Mary:

-- Did she live an uttlerly sinless life?
-- Was she born without an Adamic sinful nature?
-- How was she taken up to heaven?
-- Does she pray today?
-- If so, can we ask her to pray for us?
-- Does she communicate with people today?
-- Did she remain a virgin her whole life?

Does that fairly sum up the arease of disagreement and argument that have
surfaced on the list lately?

(3)  To the Catholics among us:  The areas in disagreement in (2) above make 
your Protestant friends very uncomfortable.  To them, it seems that you get too
close to the line separating "veneration" from "worship" and "intercession" 
from "mediation."  At worst, they fear you have devalued the Bible and have 
elevated Mary to the 4th person of the Godhead.

(4)  To the Protestants among us:  The areas in disagreement in (2) above make 
your Catholic friends very uncomfortable.  To them, it seems that you get too 
close to the line separating "discernment" from "disrespect" (remember the 
infamous posting about the salad made from mashed avacados?) and "independence"
from "arrogance."  At worst, they fear you have devalued Mary and have elevated
the Bible to the 4th person of the Godhead.

(5)  Some more things to agree upon:  we dare not worship any human (other than
the Son of Man), nor do we need any mediator other than Christ; disrespect is
sinful and unloving; and we must not take our independence so far that we treat
our brothers and sisters arrogantly.

(6)  Many of the stories circulated about her are not found in Scripture
(indeed, Mary is not mentioned after Acts 1) but are rather from tradition that
was not recorded until later.  This fact does not make the stories true or
false, right or wrong, historical or legendary; but it is a fact we have to
take into consideration when dealing with our brothers and sisters who may
have differing opinions about these stories.

(7)  This is a perfect situation in which to practice Romans 14.  We are 
instructed there to "accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on
disputable matters" (vs 1).  The definition of whether the Catholic or 
Protestant position regarding Mary is weak depends on which side of the fence 
you sit on, so let's not start throwing * that * term around.  Instead, let's
follow the teachings of this passage:

--  Don't judge somebody else's servant (vs 4).
--  Be convinced of what's right on this issue in your own mind (vs 5).
--  Try not to say or do anything that will put a stumbling block in the way
    of someone who disagrees with you on this issue (vs 13).
--  Make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual edification (vs 19).
--  "So whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and 
    God!" (vs 22)
--  Don't do anything that hurts your conscience (vs 14).
--  Accept one another; God's glory is at stake (15:7).

(8) Application:  This would be a great time to shut down discussion on this 
topic, now that we realize what a hot potato it is.  Let's dilligently pray and
study on this issue so that we can develop firm convictions; then let's keep 
quiet about those convictions on the list so long as there is a danger that 
they will become a disputable matter again.  Let's think about how we can 
rebuild an atmosphere of peace, mutual edification, and acceptance; in 
particular, some apologies may be in order.

Now--I'm ready to move on to another topic.  How about all of you?

Grace and peace,
Daniel
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