HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: -=[ Curtin University of Technology ]=-  Perth, Australia
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:16:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.140849.1@cc.curtin.edu.au>, tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au writes:

> In article <9220514.18554@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:

>>>What I'd like to know is why postgraduate courses cost so much.
>>>Especially those that are research based.  I mean, I read up,
>>>consult my lecturer, use the net, use a pc, ocassionally use the
>>>fax, and they are charging me $14500 per annum? where is it all
>>>going?

I'd say that the $14500 figure is quite reasonable, as it costs around $11,000
funding from the Australian gov't for an undergraduate course.

Remember that you have not included the costs of equipment, and the salaries
of the staff.

I'd estimate the cost to average out to around $14,000 per student.

>> 	Exactly the same question I asked at the 1990 NLC conference in
>> Adelaide, but it was ducked. It is pretty odd that they are charging so much
>> for things like you mentioned. Furthermore, a lot of the research that
>> overseas students are engaged in are potentially very beneficial to Australia
>> - yet, the fees aren't helping to encourage the same students.

Hmmm.  I would say that the research benefits both Australia, the nation from
which the student is from (as they will no doubt return their expertise to
their homeland) and to the University.

>> 	Where is it all going? Probably down the black hole that is
>> masquerading as the Australian Economy!

No comment :v>

> O.K so we've established that we dont feel the charges are justified.
> Now who can we talk to to get some straight answers?
> Guild Rep? ha! Overseas student rep? Ha! Overseas student office? HA!

I gather you have talked to none of these groups of people?

Rod Swift
-- 
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+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From:  (Juliet)
Subject: Chang Thiaw, don't you response?
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 08:04:19 GMT

Don't you have any feeling at all, I hunger for your reply.

Shall we meet at the library. How do we recognise each others?

Yes, I'll wear a red rose and a black skirt. Well you shall wear a white 
singlet with a hat.

HOpe to see you on this coming Saturday at 2pm at the Morris entrance.

Don't let me down.
From: rayhann@ee.mu.OZ.AU (rayhann chee)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering - University of Melbourne 
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:16:01 GMT

In article <9220415.17827@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:
>	I beg to differ - chemistry is definitely NOT a waste of time IMO.
>It's a pity that when I did undergrad here at Melbourne, the double degree
>courses were highly inflexible - I'd have done more chemistry! Of course,
>that shouldn't mean that everyone else have to do it - people should be
>given a choice.

C'mon Dave, the combined course is quite flexible.. trouble is we weren't told
at that stage ie 1st yr, or else I would've down stacks of other subjects in 1st
abd 2nd Yr... Oh I forgot, you were 2 years my senior... the courses were prob
more inflexible then... its pretty flexible now.... 

>
>	Well, it was the same here at Melbourne a few years back, but things
>have changed. Also, an article in the University's news periodical indicate
>that the powers to be are actively looking into improving things. 

I do think that a general 1st year is a wee bit too general and a waste of time.
I remember doing Introduction to Engineering... **** ghastly memories *****
and all the associated stuff dealin' with Mechanics & ThermoDy which was not
my area of interest at all. Come to think of it as an EE 4th Yr, I have never
used ThermoD, Mechanics and so forth in any subject that I have done since .
>
>	Unlucky them! Chemistry is such a great subject! 	B-)

I could support that now if only someone can tell me how to turn coconut oil
kerosene and soap into a gel....

regards`

ray

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rayhann@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au	| Murphy's Law : Anything that can go wrong will.
rayhann@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au	| O'Toole's Law: Murphy was an optimist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: eln235s@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (mr  h    hui)
Subject: Re: Chang Thiaw, don't you response?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:05:30 GMT

(Juliet) writes:

>Don't you have any feeling at all, I hunger for your reply.
>Shall we meet at the library. How do we recognise each others?
>Yes, I'll wear a red rose and a black skirt. Well you shall wear a white 
>singlet with a hat.
>HOpe to see you on this coming Saturday at 2pm at the Morris entrance.
>Don't let me down.

I hate this kind of personal matter to be put on the net. Would you keep
your personal matter on your personal mail? 

Humphrey Hui   (eln235s@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au)
               (HHUI@basil.eng.monash.edu.au)

Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: rayhann@ee.mu.OZ.AU (rayhann chee)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering - University of Melbourne 
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 05:21:25 GMT

In article <9220514.18554@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:
>
>	Exactly the same question I asked at the 1990 NLC conference in
>Adelaide, but it was ducked. It is pretty odd that they are charging so much
>for things like you mentioned. Furthermore, a lot of the research that
>overseas students are engaged in are potentially very beneficial to Australia
>- yet, the fees aren't helping to encourage the same students.

	I couldn't agree more! Hey maybe its because research students drink a lot
	of coffee? *grin*
>
>	Where is it all going? Probably down the black hole that is
>masquerading as the Australian Economy!

	Horror!!!! I thought that black holes were an yet undiscovered aspect of the
	Australian Economy..there goes my theory.. *drat*

rayhann

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rayhann@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au	| Murphy's Law : Anything that can go wrong will.
rayhann@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au	| O'Toole's Law: Murphy was an optimist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: rayhann@ee.mu.OZ.AU (rayhann chee)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:36:26 GMT

In article <9221011.7245@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:
>
>	Hmm, I should get the NLC folks to be in this newsgroup! 
>
Best idea yet Dave... *grin*

rayhann

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rayhann@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au	| Murphy's Law : Anything that can go wrong will.
rayhann@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au	| O'Toole's Law: Murphy was an optimist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: Re: Best Australian Universities?
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:25:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.025012.12361@newsroom.utas.edu.au> (C-Loh) writes:

	[some mess deleted]
>QUT											W				-						W					-					W			**
>QUEENSLAND				W				A						A					A					A			**
>ADELAIDE						W				W						A					A					A			**
>TASMANIA						A				A						A					A					A			**
>MELBOURNE					A				B						A					B					W			****
>MONASH								A				A						A					W					W			**
>UWA											W				W						B					B					W			****
>
>Further info will be continued....

	Can you repost your article on Best Australian Uni's? It somehow
came up garbled in News.

Regards,
DC

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================


Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:52:42 GMT

> 	I'd expect the people to see about this would be the NLC people,
> because they are empowered by the National Overseas Student Conference to
> deal with the Government on issues relating to overseas students. The
> conference has just ended two weeks ago (I didn't go this year, so I can't
> fill you in on what's current).
> 
> 	You should be able to contact the NLC via your student rep or
> by writing directly. Anyway, your overseas student reps or overseas student
> services would be the first place to go.
> 
> (You sound cynical, so I am not sure what's going on there in Curtin).
> 
> 	Hmm, I should get the NLC folks to be in this newsgroup! 
> 
> Regards,
> DC
> 
> ==_|_=====================================================================
> | \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
> | _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
> |  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
> ==========================================================================
O.K David I'm about to ask a REALLY stupid question here......
Whats the NLC?........Do they go by a different name in different
states or is this some sort of national orgnaization?


(yes I am sort of cynical after having dealt with the UNI's IPO)

Ian

> 
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Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:26:03 GMT

tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au writes:
>kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:

	[stuff deleted - see original]

>O.K so we've established that we dont feel the charges are justified. Now who can we talk to to get some straight answers?
>Guild Rep? ha! Overseas student rep? Ha! Overseas student office? HA!

	I'd expect the people to see about this would be the NLC people,
because they are empowered by the National Overseas Student Conference to
deal with the Government on issues relating to overseas students. The
conference has just ended two weeks ago (I didn't go this year, so I can't
fill you in on what's current).

	You should be able to contact the NLC via your student rep or
by writing directly. Anyway, your overseas student reps or overseas student
services would be the first place to go.

(You sound cynical, so I am not sure what's going on there in Curtin).

	Hmm, I should get the NLC folks to be in this newsgroup! 

Regards,
DC

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================

Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: NLC (was RE: Australian Universities failed...) 
Summary: A quick look at what NLC is 
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:36:59 GMT

tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au writes:

>O.K David I'm about to ask a REALLY stupid question here......
>Whats the NLC?........Do they go by a different name in different
>states or is this some sort of national orgnaization?

	No, it's not a stupid question at all - the NLC doesn't have a high
profile amongst the general overseas student population. The NLC is the
'National Liaison Committee', and is the highest level of representation
for overseas students in Australia (although NOSCA may dispute this - that's
another story...). Every year a National Overseas Student Conference is held
where representatives from every affiliated campus come together and discuss
issues pertaining to overseas students, formulate policies, elect the
NLC executive and direct the exec to do certain things (like organising
awareness campaigns, lobby the Aust. government on certain issues etc).
The NLC exec is a committee of five people elected at the conference (NOSC)
every year (and they maybe all be from different campuses around Australia).
The NLC is also the Overseas Student Department of the NUS (National Union
of Students).

	The NLC works through the various State O.S. Organisations, which
in turn work through the various campus O.S. Organisations. You can go 
through your campus O.S. Organisation, or the State Organisation, or if there
is an exec member of the NLC in your campus, grab her/him! Anyway, you should
be able to get the postal address or phone number of the NLC person to contact
from your campus O.S. organisation.

	I am not sure who is in the exec this year as I didn't attend the
NOSC (I have been to the past four NOSCs) - most likely, the new convenor of
NLC will be David Oh from Monash Uni (if the grapevine is to be trusted).

	Anyway, I think it will be a good idea for you to voice your views
to the NLC. I'll be trying to get the NLC in to this newsgroup, (or at least
get them to be aware of this particular newsgroup as a forum). NOSCA 
(the O.S. Organisation representing NSW and bits & pieces of other states)
do have access to this newsgroup, but I have yet to see them contribute.
Well? Any NOSCA members (or members of other STATE groups) reading this group? Please respond...

>(yes I am sort of cynical after having dealt with the UNI's IPO)
>
>Ian
	What's an IPO?

Regards,
DC

ps - I heard from David Chin.

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================

Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: Re: An Aussie's Reply
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 06:48:32 GMT

rayhann@ee.mu.OZ.AU (rayhann chee) writes:

>u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:
>>
>>As for not mixing with Aussies - That is a sad fact. I concur with other 
>>netters that feelings of being homesick, need for familarity, etc, often 
>>leads us to associate with fellow Asians, including people we would 
>>normally not befriend back home. However, there is not reason for the 
>>emotional anchors provided by these ethnic enclaves to continue for the 
>>three to five years of University education. The point is not 
>>the fact that Asians mix with fellow Asians, there
>>is nothing wrong with that. The issue is that Asians do not tend to mix with
>>fellow Aussie students and continue to segregate themselves and allow 
>>themselves to be segregated.
>
>I do not think you can generalize that way. The Aussies also have the 
>responsilbilty to approach Asians. Its a two way street, both groups must
>try to "reach" out to each other. Segregration occurs because one or both
>of the groups refuse to welcome each other.
>

	Yes, it is a two way street. However (refer to my remark to Chay),
overseas students who segregate themselves from Australians (or whites) on
purpose are, IMO, missing out on a wealth of knowledge. 

	Also, Lin Can (or jlam) mentioned that the difference in culture
is the prime reason causing (Chinese) Asian students to avoid getting to
know Australians. I agree with his reasoning, but I can't help thinking
that overseas students who avoid Australians because of that reason are
leading a sheltered life. It is precisely the difference in cultures that
led me to wanting to meet not just Australians, but people from other
countries. There are so much you could learn! Besides, such knowledge will
help you in dealing with different people later in life - you can't expect to
deal with folks of the same race as you all your life.

	To learn about another culture doesn't mean that you have to adopt 
it. It also, IMHO, doesn't mean that your own cultural values will be
corrupted. If only some of those overseas students can understand this...

Just musing,
DC

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================

 
Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Hello there ! (what happened ?)
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 05:23:25 GMT

In article <Diane_Chai.04kc@guru.pub.uu.oz.au>, Diane_Chai@guru.pub.uu.oz.au (Diane Chai) writes:
> Hmmm... wondere what happened with the last message. Well, guess one has to
> expect problems when one is new at something.... Sorry ! (the
> computer/modem just seemed to go bonkers when I was in the middle of
> typing, so I figured I will try again today, not knowing that that message
> would be transmitted)
Apology accepted!! Looks like youve got a noisy line. Maybe if you
got a new piece of string and new plastic cups....8-)
> Anyway..... I will continue with the self-introduction...As I was saying, I
> new VCE group of guinea pigs, oh well ! By the way, it seems to me that all
> the readers of this section are uni. students . Am I correct ? Does that
> mean that everyone here is over 18 or something ? (I am only 17)  {Please
> enlighten me !
I really don't think there are any age restrictions on the net users.
Neither are there any qualification restrictions. But I think as things go, uni students seem to have the easiest access to the net. Therefore
most people on the net are uni students.  QED.


Consider yourself enlightened grasshopaaaar 8-).



Ian
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Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: Re: An Aussie's Reply
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 06:28:38 GMT

u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:

>IMHO, Chay had given a very persuasive and perceptive account of one of the
>causes for ill feeling towards Asians. As was indicated by the heading, it

	Agreed.

>was an Aussie's perspective and so the fact that a number of replies to his
>reply which centres on the fact that Aussie's should not feel the way they
>did were irrelevant.
	  ^^^^^^^^^^

	I am surprised that you think a number of those replies were
irrelevant. As far as I can tell, most replies to Chay's posting centred
on clearing up a number of potentially confusing statements. I am sure most
netters in this group welcomed the alternate view-point, particularly since
most netters involved in this particular discussion are (or were) overseas
students. Things like the 'overseas students taking places for local students',
references to the MET discrimination case, conversations in one's native
language, the segregation of Asian students etc. have all been replied to by
various netters, and I certainly feel that what they had to say were quite
relevant. Besides, most of the replies presented an insight into why Asian
students 'tend' to do the things Chay pointed out; IMO I don't think any of
the replies are telling Chay that he shouldn't feel this or that way about
Asians. Have you thought about all those replies adequately? (Don't be too
hasty in branding them 'irrelevant'). 


regards,
DC

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>      David Kai C. Chan    | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================

Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: ystan@fawlty10.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr YS Tan)
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:06:22 GMT

u926009@postoffice.utas.edu.au (C-Loh) writes:

>	# stuff deleted 
>
>Prof Ian Falconer, the deputy vice-chancellor of the University of Adelaide,
>however, emphasize that the post-graduate courses in Australia take longer and
>show the guaruantee of quality education.

Damned right, courses in Australia take longer time to complete; in
particular Engineering. In my first year, back in 1988, we have 
introductory courses to
all major engineering fields (incl materials, chemical, civil, mechanical
& electrical). No complains, even though I almost flunk the first 3. I
think they are meant to create engineers who are kind of an "all-rounder".
But then we had lots of rubbish like organic, inorganic & physical
chemistry ---> a waste of time ( including 3 hrs lab each week). In 2nd yr
even though we streamed into Elect. Eng, we still have electives for a bit of 
Mech eng, a bit of Chem Eng, a bit of that ... I'm not sure if other Uni in
Aus have the same system.

Personally, I think these 2nd year electives & chemistries could have been
done without, and the course could then be shrunk to 3 or 3&1/2 years.

Anyway, now the new Eng. freshies no longer have to learn organic & 
inorganic chemistry. Lucky them ! But the 2nd year electives remain.


Newsgroups: aus.students.overseas
From: tsuanian@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Australian Universities failed
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 05:08:49 GMT

In article <9220514.18554@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, kaic@mamura.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan) writes:
>>What I'd like to know is why postgraduate courses cost so much.
>>Especially those that are research based.  I mean, I read up,
>>consult my lecturer, use the net, use a pc, ocassionally use the
>>fax, and they are charging me $14500 per annum? where is it all
>>going?
> 
> 	Exactly the same question I asked at the 1990 NLC conference in
> Adelaide, but it was ducked. It is pretty odd that they are charging so much
> for things like you mentioned. Furthermore, a lot of the research that
> overseas students are engaged in are potentially very beneficial to Australia
> - yet, the fees aren't helping to encourage the same students.
> 
> 	Where is it all going? Probably down the black hole that is
> masquerading as the Australian Economy!
> 
> Regards,
> DC
> 
> 
O.K so we've established that we dont feel the charges are justified. Now who can we talk to to get some straight answers?
Guild Rep? ha! Overseas student rep? Ha! Overseas student office? HA!


Ian
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 Bitnet: TSUANIAN%cc.curtin.edu.au@cunyvm.bitnet
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