HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:08:43 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: George Bush did not lie

Marty:

Two things.  1) In addition to your remarks about Bush, I would also
add that it was in fact *Congress* that raised taxes (the Democrats).
Bush signed the bill, knowing full well that he would lose any veto
fight, and believing that the tax increase was not substantial enough
to cause hardship.  He has been trying to figure out a way to give us back
our money ever since (such as the change in the withholding regulations,
which are entirely in the control of the administration.)
   2)  Could you please tell me when Nathanson became a Christian?  I
have not come across this information, and I would like to be as accurate
as possible when I mention him in my dissertation.  Do you have any
citations I could use?   Thanks.
                                Love INC,
                                         --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia,alt.athiesm,talk.religion.misc
From: nyarko@ee.ualberta.ca (David Nyarko)
Subject: Re: Drinking & christian living
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:08:35 GMT

tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

>In article <nyarko.711389046@ee.ualberta.ca> nyarko@ee.ualberta.ca (David Nyarko) writes:
>>>If you find you are better able to dedicate your life to Christ by abstaining
>>>from drink, by all means do it!  But wine or lack thereof does not 
>>>necessarily a dedicated Christian make. (IMHO)
>>
>>Lets note that in Leviticus 10:8-10, the use of wine was forbidden
>>to the priests during all the time they were in the Tarbernacle and in 
>>the service of the altar. Nazitites were also forbidden to drink wine
>>(Num 6:3). Under the new covenant, believers are priests (Rev. 1:6 ,
>>1 Peter 2:1-5) and Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Hebs 3:1, and other
>>chapters in Hebrews).

>But we are not Levitical priests, and, technically speaking, neither was
>Jesus.  We are a nation of priests just as Israel was a nation of priests
>(cf. Ex. 19:6).  The  people of Israel were allowed to enjoy the fruit of

By reading Ex 19:4-6 we see that Israel would be a nation of priests IF 
they obeyed God and kept their part of God's contract with them (v5).
Regarding the priesthood of the believer, in 1 Peter 2:5 it talks about
offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ, as
a goal. This brings to mind Romans 12:1,2 (it might tie in). In addition,
1 Peter 2:9- also talks about the priesthood.

>the vine.  Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek, who served
>bread and wine to the patriarch Abraham (Gen. 14:18).  

Could you please relate these physical events to the believer in recent times?

>-- 
>Tom Albrecht
-- 
-------- David Nyarko   |  Internet: nyarko@bode.ee.ualberta.ca -----
"A result of GOD's love for mankind was the giving of his only Son
Jesus Christ so that anyone who believes in his Son would instead of
perishing as GOD's justice demands, rather have eternal life."
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:38:05 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Fact?

Angela writes:

>fact: Something that actually exists; reality; truth

>How can you know for a fact what God is thinking?  You can quote the
>bible all you want but how can you *know* as *fact*?  It's impossible,
>especially since God is not a being that exists beyond a shadow of a
>doubt.  It can't be fact that a being who hasn't even been proven has
>a specific thought about an action.  You can believe that God has this
>thought, and maybe he does, but it isn't fact.  Which leads me to something
>else.  How can a human know what God thinks?

I appreciate your skepticism, but do you go far enough with it?
How do you know your definition of "fact" is a "fact"? How do you know
only "something" can "exist", what about a thought? Do thoughts "exist"?
If you want to be a true skeptic, why not question the definition of
"reality" too? And as for "truth", well, I believe it was Pilate who asked,
"What is Truth?"
I believe too that it was the fool who said, "There is no God."

My point is simply that as a Christian, I don't have a "fact" as a starting
point. My starting point is the Word of God. I believe (faith) the Bible is
the Word of God, and that it teaches that God "exists". Hence, if I, as a
human want to know "what God thinks," I search the Word of God.

My second point would have to be along the lines that the skeptic too must
start with faith. His faith is that of the fool and Pilate, but it is a faith
none the less.

Tom Brewer
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:02:40 -0400
From:         "Toni J. Benner" <tjbenner@COLBY.EDU>
Subject:      Thanks for prayer

I don't know if anyone remembers me asking for prayer for my husband and
his  being arrested for shoplifting? Anyway, he just did a dumb thing and
meant to pay for 2 candy bars but forgot to because of other circumstances
at the check-out. Praise the Lord, I just got a call from his lawyer and
he said that they are going to continue it for another 6 months and if
there are no other criminal offenses, the matter will be dropped. My husband
has never done anything criminal before, so he should be free and clear.
I don't think this kind of thing makes the paper - and this is what we
were worrying about. It was his reputation that we were concerned with.
Thanks everyone for your prayers.
Toni
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:10:02 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Multiple Personalities

Carol;
She already has a shrink. And is in lots of thearpy. She says
she is a christian. And I just want to know if other Christians,
believe in multiple personalities.
Yvette

************************************************************************
*  Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."*
*  Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3    *
*  Computer Programmer/Analyst                                         *
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:04:19 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: From the listowners (please read)

Madge and Steven,

I like the idea of a supervised list as Christia is now.  To try to help
calm down things I will drop the threads that are currently provoking
flames in some people.  This includes dropping some replies I had already
started mentally, but that's okay.

Marty Helgesen
From: scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Changing Opinions (Cease fire!)
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:13:34 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

Bob writes->
>
>	The key difference here is that while many of the comments 
>made may have been taken by you as offensive, they were not directed 
>or written or addressed specifically *to* *you*. In distinction, the 
>replies to these general comments have been directly addressed to 
>certain people on this list. Your second sentence above even 
>underlines this by saying that people were writing against an *issue*.
>Yet certain comments in reply to these issue oriented posts have not 
>been addressed to the issue, but to the person.
>

	There is nothing wrong with citing your sources, is there?  And that 
was all I was trying to do.  Further, if a person has the gall to make an 
offensive comment, then let him/her stand by the comment, and defend it!
	It's easy to see *your* view of how one should reply to offensive
material if you are not offended by the comments mentioned, but try seeing 
it from my point of view.  The main problem here is that so many people here 
on the list see issues as either black or white with no shades of grey.
	

Goodnight all.... 8-) 
Bill Plunkett
SCSD1055@ALTAIR.SELU.EDU
Gee...no names or initials!  I must be slipping.... ;-)                 
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Going on NOMAIL
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:09:38 GMT

I'm going on NOMAIL (or the USEnet equivalent) for a week or two.  I have
a consulting job to work on, and reading christia articles has taken up
too much of my time.  (Not to mention all of that replying I do.)  Besides
that, I think I need a vacation... :-)

I will be praying for christia while I am away.  I hope that the vote
does not divide those in this list as I've seen such matters split
churches.  I have found that, although I do not agree with everything
everyone says, I can find some common ground with practically everybody.
Specifically, the grounds Jesus and the apostles offered.  (Maybe we
should start up the unity thread again. :-)

I honestly don't consider any of you my enemy, and I hope that you do
not consider me yours.

Additionally, those posts that I do not agree with or have offended me
or have hurt me I find have served to increase my patience and my
self-control.

Keep in touch,
-Tim
-- 
Tim King                  |-_      |
Dedham, MA                |  -|    |    Make mine music!
timk@world.std.com       <>   |   <>
(617) 890-2929 x137          <>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:12:32 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      One Question, Kerry

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


> This leads the audience to believe that God would be supportive of the
> entire statement, when in fact the opposite is true.

How do you know it as *fact*?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 04:02:38 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Thomas a Kempis (24 July 1471)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

THOMAS A KEMPIS (24 JULY 1471)

Thomas Hammerken (or Hammerlein -- both mean "little hammer") was
born at Kempen (hence the "A Kempis") in the duchy of Cleves in
Germany around 1380.  He was educated by a religious order called
the Brethren of the Common Life, and in due course joined the order,
was ordained a priest, became sub-prior of his house (in the low
Countries), and died 25 July 1471 (his feast is observed a day early
to avoid conflict with that of James bar-Zebedee the Apostle).

Thomas is known almost entirely for composing or compiling a manual
of spiritual advice known as THE IMITATION OF CHRIST, in which he
urges the reader to seek to follow the example of Jesus Christ and
to be conformed in all things to His will. An extract follows:

When God bestows Spiritual comfort, receive it with a grateful
heart; but remember that it comes of God's free gift, and not of
your own merit. Do not be proud, nor over joyful, nor foolishly
presumptuous; rather, be the more humble for this gift, more
cautious, and more prudent in all your doings, for this hour will
pass, and temptation will follow it. When comfort is withdrawn, do
not immediately  despair, but humbly and patiently await the will of
Heaven; for God is able to restore you to a consolation even richeer
than before. This is nothing new or strange to those who know the
ways of God, for the great Saints and Prophets of old often
experienced these changes. ...Indeed, the temptation that precedes
is often a sign of comfort to follow. For heavenly comfort is
promised to those who have been tried and tempted."To him who
overcomes," says God, "I will give to eat of the Tree of Life."

PRAYER
   O God, by whose grace thy blessed servant Thomas,
   enkindled with the fire of thy love, became a burning and a
   shining light in thy Church: Grant that we also may be
   inflamed with the spirit of discipline and love, and ever walk
   before thee as children of light; through Jesus Christ our
   Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
   one God, now and for ever.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:20:03 EDT
From:         "Fritz Block, LCF Summer President" <BD32@LAFAYACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Changing Opinions (Edify)

> 	Please do not read this entry if you are sick and tired of the
> abortion debate....but I too am sick and tired of the debate, and need to
> vent my anger with a few persons whom have posted to CHRISTIAn and seem
> to have nothing better to do than bash pro-choicers.  The replies are in
> no certain order... :-(

If somebody feels the need to vent their anger at others on this list, I
suggest doing it through private e-mail and not to the whole list.  What
I really suggest is taking that anger to the Lord and not to others at
all.

>                      The majority of Kerry's posting is totally baseless in
> stance and totally opinionated! Typical!

If you have a problem with somebody's arguments, simply refute them.
Adding insult only detract from your cause.

> -- and Kerry further states -->>
> >	"What I found interesting, as well, was that Carter spoke before
> >Jackson, and did not *mention* abortion (I believe he is the only speaker
> >that did not.)  Why?  Simple enough answer.  Carter is prolife, and Ron
> >Brown was having none of that."  K.S.
>
> 	I have to ask.  While you were in N.Y. taking your OPINIONated POLE
> on democrats and abortions, did Ron Brown personally tell you that he would
> have "none of that" anti-abortion talk from Ex-president Carter?   Give us
> the "simple" answer...   Ex-pres. Carter is a brilliant orator, and I think
> the simple answer is that he had something more important talk about.  I
> know that you'll find it hard to believe that Democrats can converse on topics
> other than abortion, but they do.   We all know those Democrats love a good
> Operation Rescue story... :-)

Neither party would allow one of their own to argue for the side of the
abortion issue not outlined in the party platform.  The Democrats did a
very good job of expressing unity in the party platform.  Governor Casey
of Pennsylvania wanted to give a pro-life plea at the convention but was
opposed by Ron Brown.  The pro-choice Republicans will meet the same
fate this August at the Republican convention.

> #I apologize for being flamish! [...]

If you know you're being "flamish," please wait a while, look at the
post, take the flame out and put love in.  It's possible to express
disagreement and being offended and still love.


*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
* Fritz Block      "And though you try hard to fight it/you feel    *
* bd32@lafayacs     the rushing of emotions start/You're in love    *
* 215-250-8031      with a beautiful lady/and you hope she doesn't  *
* Lafayette Col.    break your heart."          -- Larry Norman     *
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:05:44 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: US Politicians Twisting Scripture

Michelle,
The story is not true.  According to CURRENT BIOGRAPHY (1986) Jesse
Jackson was ordained a Baptist minister in June 1968.

I have read that Jackson has never been a pastor.  He as always worked
in the civil rights movement and other similar movements.  That may be
the germ of fact from which the story that he was never ordained grew.

Marty Helgesen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:10:43 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Fact?

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

>
>> This leads the audience to believe that God would be supportive of the
>> entire statement, when in fact the opposite is true.
>
>How do you know it as *fact*?
------------
> From the incident of the tower of Babel, from God's statement
> after the Israelites signed an agreement without consulting God, from
> God's statement when the Israelites wanted a king.

>  en agape,
>  Bob

fact: Something that actually exists; reality; truth

How can you know for a fact what God is thinking?  You can quote the
bible all you want but how can you *know* as *fact*?  It's impossible,
especially since God is not a being that exists beyond a shadow of a
doubt.  It can't be fact that a being who hasn't even been proven has
a specific thought about an action.  You can believe that God has this
thought, and maybe he does, but it isn't fact.  Which leads me to something
else.  How can a human know what God thinks?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:27:27 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Changing Opinions (Edify)
              29 Jul 1992 13:21:29 EST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

Ian,

You wrote to Bernice, "My question was, if it is the party STANCE for
anti abortion, ie the majority of the Party was in favour of anti-
abortion legislation, then how come it was enacted as law... I think
Kerry went some way in explaining it with the congress set up.."
Actually, she didn't, although what she wrote can help explain other
things in our government's policies, especially to people in coun-
tries with parliamentary systems in which the prime minister is the
leader of the majority party or a coalition.  In those countries a
situation like the one in the United States, in which a president can
be of one party while the Congress is controlled by the other party,
cannot exist.

The reason why what she wrote does not help with abortion is that
abortion was not "enacted into law."  The Supreme Court, in what
Justice White described in his dissent as "an exercise of raw judi-
cial power" decreed that abortion on demand is legal for the full
nine months of pregnancy.  They did so by claiming that the constitu-
tional right to privacy, which does not appear in the Constitution
but was invented by an earlier Court, encompassed a right to abor-
tion.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:31:44 -0400
From:         "Kathleen P. Kowalski" <kk00+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Amy Grant and her "Crossover" Music

>being -- I think that it is good that she, as well as others, have
crossed-over
>in order to bring those of us who are uninterested into this Christian Rock
>thing!

I agree. Loosely paraphrasing, didn't Paul say that whatever a man was,
Paul became like him so he could share the Good News with him?  Seems
like Amy's following suit.

Kay
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:15:28 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 7/31
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

TGIF (Thank God I'm Forgiven)

"BUT GOD'S mercy is great, and he loved us very much.  We were spiritually dead
because of the things we did wrong against God.  BUT GOD gave us new life with
Christ.  You have been saved by God's grace.  And he raised us up with Christ
and gave us a seat with him in the heavens.  He did this for those of us who
are in Christ Jesus.  He did this so that for all future time he could show the
very great riches of his grace.  He shows that grace by being kind to us in
Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-7).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: "Communion of saints"
Keywords: Apostle's Creed
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:44:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Jul21.190304.16576@rice.edu>, mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller) writes...
>The Creed that was alluded to is the Apostle's Creed, the most common of the
>three oft-mentioned Creeds, the other two being the Nicean and Athanasius'
>Creeds.  It is dated from the time of the apostles and is intended to be
>a correct and concise statement of what Christians believe.  
	
	The Apostles' Creed is not dated from the time of the 
Apostles. It is derived from earlier statements, some of which date to 
the beginning of the second century. The present text that we have was 
standardized in the eighth century. The early text is sometimes 
referred to as "The Old Roman Creed," and is usually given as:
	
	I believe in God Almighty [the Father Almighty]
	And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
	Who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
	Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
	And the third day rose from the dead
	Who ascended into heaven
	And sits on the right hand of the Father
	Whence he comes to judge the living and the dead
	And in the Holy Ghost
	The holy church
	The remission of sins
	The resurrection of the flesh
	The life everlasting
	
>It is used
>by almost all churches with varying frequency; it is even included
>in the Baptist hymnal (in the back).  It reads:
> 
>I believe in God, the Father Almighty, 
>creator of heaven and earth;
>And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord;
>who was concieved by the Holy Ghost,
>born of the Virgin Mary,
>suffered under Pontius Pilate,
>was crucified, dead, and buried.
>He descended into hell.	                     (Some churches omit this)
>The third day he rose again from the dead.
>He ascended into heaven,
>and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
>From thence shall he come to judge the quick and the dead.
>I believe in the Holy Ghost,
>the holy catholic Church,
>the communion of saints,
>the forgiveness of sins,
>the resurrection of the body,
>and the life everlasting.  Amen.

[...]

	The phrase, "the communion of saints,"	as part of the Creed 
dates to the time of the second council of Nicaea in 787.


 en agape,
 Bob 
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