From: kytan@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com (Kok-Yong Tan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.asean,soc.culture.korean,soc.rights.human,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Have no need to fear ... was Re: Freedom of Speech
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:07:34 GMT
	<1992Sep26.232656.23607@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<KYTAN.92Sep29122228@mantra.fia.dmg.ml.com>
	<1992Sep30.194606.14293@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: Organised?  Here?  Hahahahahahahaha.....

In article <1992Sep30.194606.14293@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

   >Well, I am also Chinese-ge (by your terminology.)  My point about not being
   >able to obliterate so many adherents is a mere fact.  I'm not particularly
   >enamoured of the way the Tian An Men protest was put down or that it was put
   >down at all but you seem to want to instigate your own form of "ethnic
   >cleansing" which anyone who doesn't agree with you is subject to.

   Yes, a Chinese-cu would say that.

   No, I oppose "ethnic cleansing", but I favor the eradication of the
   Chinese-cu language through means that do not violate the Bill of Rights[1].
   However, Chinese-cu people are apt to favor "ethnic cleansing"; Hoyt Sze
   is a "fine" example.  He opposes interracial marriages.

Don't generalize.  I'm Chinese-cu and I DON'T favor "ethnic cleansing," as can
plainly be seen in my words above.  What you ALLEGE that SOME Chinese-cu do
should not be construed as the beliefs of all other Chinese-cu.  Incidentally,
I do NOT oppose interracial marriage.  I am presently going out with a
Caucasian woman.

   Chinese-cu are bigotted.

So you claim, with very little evidence to make obscene generalisations.

   [1]  Most Asian-Americans, for example, have lost or will eventually
   lose their grasp of an Asian language with each succeeding generation.
   This "loss" has been accomplished without violating the Bill of Rights.
   I favor this in the specific case of the Chinese-cu language.

If Asian-Americans want to cooperate with you on this, that is their right.
However, if I were to bring up my children here, I would make sure that they
are efficiently bilingual.  And I'm NOT Asian-American nor do I want to be.

   >Who is the Nazi, now?

   Many Chinese-cu.  Of course, Chin-ning Chu is not a Nazi even though
   she is Chinese-ge, and I respect her.

You love to twist things around, don't you?  I notice that you conveniently
deleted the other parts of my posting preceding the above question.  It is
obvious that your idea of the "truth" is whatever suits your warped mind rather
than look at an issue from as objective a view as possible.  Obviously, having
a debate with you is an exercise in futility because objectivity is an alien
concept to you.  Your mind is closed.

   >>By the way, being right is not a popularity contest.  (not that a
   >>Chinese-cu or a Nazi could understand....)
   >Different people have different concepts of what is right.  You have the
   >FREEDOM to be right in your own mind just as I have a similar FREEDOM to be
   >right in mine.  You seem to want to shove your concept of "rightness" down
   >other peoples throats, thus depriving others of this "right."

   Yes, a Chinese-cu would say that.

Here we go again.  You have this attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is
definitely wrong (since you seem to use "Chinese-cu" as an epithet.)  Whatever
happened to the American (native American, I might add) concept of "walk in the
other person's moccasins before you judge him?"

   I fail to see how I have shoved my concept of "rightness" down any
   people's throats by posting on USENET.  I have consistently said that
   I believe in the Bill of Rights and, specifically, in freedom of speech.

   I suspect Mr. Tan of being Chinese-cu.  I would suggest that he understand
   the difference between speech/writing and physical acts of suppression.

Suspect?  Don't suspect.  I can alleviate your petty suspicions by declaring
that I AM both Chinese-cu and Chinese-ge and just not Chinese by citizenship.
Speech/writing which advocates the suppression of anything is the first step
towards physical acts of suppression.  Perhaps you can claim that all your
words are mere thoughts of an individual but with the ill-educated masses out
there, it is very easy to become a demagogue.  You may claim that all your
postings thus far have been on the InterNet and only "enlightened" individuals
have access to the InterNet but who knows what you're doing outside of these
electronic forums?  For all we know, you might be starting up little "Hate and
Destroy Chinese-cu" groups at Stanford.  After all, didn't Peru's Shining Path
start at a university?  It took Abimael Guzman a couple of decades but look at
Peru today.  What a person writes in these forums is publicly read and any
person who writes should be responsible enough to see where things may lead,
even though he or she may write absolute drivel.

   When the Chinese-cu gov't on Taiwan imprisons a person because he dares
   to express a dissenting opinion from the official gov't line, then
   that is "depriving others of this 'right'".  When the Singaporean gov't
   bans the Asian Wall Street or the Economist, that action is a similar
   transgression.

Agreed.  I have no argument with you there.

   When a Chinese-cu (actually several Chinese-cu) send me harrassing e-mail,
   some threatening physical violence against me, that action _is_ an attempt.
   to deprive me of my rights.  Just because I air views that are different
   from yours, Mr. Tan, does not mean that I am depriving you of your rights.

Have I ever sent you ANY email, harrassing or otherwise? I am not attempting to
censor your views nor am I claiming that you are depriving me of my rights (you 
haven't, YET.)  What I AM saying is that your written drivel will LEAD to the
deprivation of the rights of the Chinese-cu.  Do you see the difference in
tense?  Have you heard of the expression "live and let live?"

   Mr. Tan, have you ever taken a civics course?  Do you even know what
   "deprivation of rights" means?

Sir, I have taken a civics course.  Moreover, I am now a citizen of Singapore
and know, having lived continuously for 21 years in a country which does
deprive me of certain rights, what the meaning of the term is.  Can you say the
same?  Do you have the same PERSONAL experience so that you can say with some
REAL authority what it feels like to be "deprived of rights?"  I could go on in
an ad hominem attack along this line but I shall refrain from doing so.  I
shall not stoop to the level of those who do so.

   >[stupidity deleted]

That is your right to call what I have written as that.

   P.S.
   Fortunately, the postmasters of the sites issuing the noxious e-mail
   are fairly understanding individuals and are not inclined to tolerate
   e-mail games.

As they should be.  I have no patience for harassment tactics via email.  What
is a public debate should remain that.

--
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Kok-Yong Tan, 			  	| My words are my own: 
Fixed Income Analytics Group, 	  	| My bosses know naught.
Merrill Lynch,			  	| Wherever they're sown,
World Financial Center, North Tower, 	| Just I should be sought.
New York, NY 10281-1315.	  	|		- K. Y. Tan, 5 Feb 1992
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