From: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.ifr
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:01:18 GMT
Reply-To: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Organization: University of Rochester - Dept of Electrical Engineering


In article <1992Oct5.161218.18416@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie) writes:
|>In article <1992Oct4.044538.155@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> glenn@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (GLENN ROBERT ALAN) writes:
|>>In article <1992Oct1.201111.22634@ee.rochester.edu> dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong) writes:
|>>>In article <1992Sep30.162333.23749@umbc3.umbc.edu>, robie@umbc4.umbc.edu (Mr. William Robie; POSI (GRAD)) writes:
|>>>|>Some even suggested that the safest way to descend through clouds was to
|>>>|>induce a spin, then recover as you broke out. 
|>>>
|>>>I've seen articles in Soaring which advocate spinning through a cloud
|>>>deck if you get stuck on top. I have to admit, it seems like a
|>>>reasonable procedure to me ...
|>>
|>>I've never heard of this method, it seems that in theory, it would work if
|>>your plane has VERY good spin characteristics, and you don't have a world-
|>>class case of vertigo when you break out. 
|>
|>Yeah, I've never heard of it either. In addition to the quite valid
|>objections that Glenn mentions, I believe there's a FAR that forbids
|>entering an intentional spin at less than 5,000 feet AGL? I think that
|>if I find myself in this position I will do what Flying magazine, Private
|>Pilot magazine, and various instructors have recommended. That is, get
|>on the horn, declare an emergency, and descend on basic instruments. I
|>will have already broken one FAR by getting into this mess, I'm not about
|>to break another playing test pilot (my 150 is only certified for spins
|>of 5 complete turns - more than that, God knows what will happen).
|>

Based on email I've gotten, the postings I've seen go by, and a review
of my posting, it's clear that I failed big time to explain what I was
trying to say. Humor me please, and let me try again more explicitely.

The discussion was sparked by Mr. Robbie mentioning that he had heard
old timers advocate spinning a Champ out of IFR conditions. I
responded by seconding that opinion, referring to an article I had once
seen in Soaring magazine.

In my zeal to minimize bandwidth, I left out all references to the
type of aircraft and the situation described in the article in Soaring
(a magazine read by glider pilots). That was a mistake.

I wasn't trying to suggest that VFR Cessna 150 pilots who find
themselves IFR should just drop that baby into a spin and let'r rip!
Power pilots have the (minimal) training, and most "modern" planes
have the instruments, to fly out of that sort of mess without any
bizarre heroics. In such a case, spins or hands off flight doesn't
make much sense, does it?

But what about the glider pilot I (so vaugely) refered to in my first
posting?  Imagine, you're flying a glider with airspeed, altimeter,
compass, vario and maybe a yawstring.  You have absolutely no training
in flying IFR. You're in wave, and suddenly the clouds close in
underneath you. Oh, and the lift just gave up and you'll definitely be
in the clouds in a couple of minutes. Finally, just because you're
having a bad day, you know that there's rising terrain a few miles
away.

Now what do you do? 

Even if you had a radio, all you could do is expedite the SAR mission.
:-( (Not quite true, maybe somebody can tell you where a hole is, but
let's ignore such good luck.) I suspect that in this sort of
situation, you either let the plane fly itself or you try to spin
through the layer.  As I said previously, which technique to trust
your life to depends on a bunch of factors, including the known spin
and hands off characteristics of the plane (and pilot's ability to
enter and recover from a spin), and perhaps the level of turbulence.

Finally, to relate this to the original post by Mr. Robbie, what if
you're flying a nice vintage Aeronica, with even less usefull
instrumentation than the glider (no vario or yaw string)? And you find
yourself in a similar situation, either "really" stuck on top with not
enough fuel to find a hole (let's say you've spent the last 2 hours
trying) or somehow imbedded in IFR stuff. Although I know even less
about flying vintage aircraft then gliders (which isn't much), when
Mr. Robbie mentioned that some old hands had suggested putting spins
into your box of emergency tools, that struck me as a reasonable idea.
It still does, although like any tool it's only appropriate under
certain circumstances.

Just to be clear, spins or flying hands off are the last resort of
somebody who's run out of options. Licensed power pilots in production
aircraft usually have other options ... glider, vintage and ultralight
pilots may not have those options and should have thought this through
while still on the ground.

BTW: a few questions:

- Is it generally considered possible to fly IFR with just airspeed,
  altimeter and a compass? I imagine airspeed and altimeter would be
  fine for controlling pitch, but can you keep the wings level with just
  a compass? How about the trick Mr. Robbie referred to of using just
  rudder and compass to keep the wings level, will that really work?
  In most aircraft? How about in strong turbulence?

- Am I correct in thinking that Mr. Patterson's reference to a FAR
  about spins below 5000 AGL, is really a reference to 91.303 which
  prohibits aerobatics below 1500 AGL? Or is there another FAR which
  applies (other then 91.3, the emergency authority of PIC).

- Did any of the articles in the mainstream publications like Flying
  and Private Pilot mention what to do in aircraft with just the basic
  VFR instruments? If so, what was their advice? 

Again, I'm sorry that my first posting was so confusing. 

Finally, I'm just a low time private pilot with power and glider
ratings, no IFR rating.  I could still be out to lunch, in which case
I look forward to being (gently) corrected.

	Del Armstrong

 Fast:      dela@ee.rochester.edu
 Slow:      {decvax,garp,harvard,hombre,rutgers}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dela
 Slowest:   University of Rochester
            Dept. of Electrical Engineering
            Rochester, NY   14627

"What if there were no hypothetical situations?" -Jeff Sauder
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