From: irvine@ntmtv.UUCP (Chuck Irvine)
Subject: Re: Hillary Clinton - Family Values?
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:29:50 GMT

I'd just like to say, well said! It made me mad just reading your post.
Isn't there anything we can do about this garbage!

In article <P9csoB2w164w@dogear.spk.wa.us>, root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick   ) writes:
|> Mic.Oettinger@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Mic Oettinger) writes:
|> 
|> > My views are NOT flames, they come from my heart, and what she said was a
|> > generalization. Nobody can tell me that the reasons for having children
|> > are the same in all situations. I did not mean to cut her down as an
|> > individual. That was bad judgment on my part, and I am sorry for that. At
|> > the time I was just furious, because in generalizing she was talking about
|> > ME as well as other wonderful single moms I know who I could never imagine
|> > saying those are the reasons they have kids.
|> > 
|> > My reasons for having a child? It was an "accident", although I really
|> > doubt someone who really didn't want a child would allow an accident,
|> > except in situations where they were using birth control but got pregnant
|> > anyway, or were raped (of course). To tell you the truth Dan, I longed for
|> > a child to love and care for, all by myself. I had lots of love to give,
|> > but no one to give it to. As I've always said I was born to be a mom, and
|> > I love it. For all you men complaining away about money, think of this:
|> > About 2/3 of my monthly earnings goes straight to my son's welfare, and I
|> > wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe some of you can tell me how you feel
|> > about your children, rather than griping about money all the time.
|> 
|> Now wait a minute.
|> 
|> I'm a man, and I complain about the child-support laws which exist today.
|> I complain about money --to use your terminology.
|> 
|> I complain because the system is inequitable: It is income-based versus
|> need-based, and not only that, it imparts a standard based on general
|> incomes for locations to which they don't or can't apply.
|> 
|> I complain that the money issues are driven in the courts by sexist
|> attitudes which reflect (on the whole) female wants versus objective and
|> pragmatic approaches to the economics of child-rearing. I complain 
|> because these attitudes extend into the areas of not only custody, but
|> visitation too.
|> 
|> So, I'm one of "all those men who complain about money," to use your
|> terminology. Mic, for someone who got furious over a generalization,
|> you certainly weild generalization like a sword. You've made ME angry.
|> 
|> Look at what you said later in your post:
|> 
|> > I agree with you Dan, you are very much correct, but that is not the way
|> > she put it. Obviously, you put more thought into your message than she
|> > did. Bottom line: being a mom myself, she insulted me by not including
|> > enough words like "most" or "some" or "many".
|> 
|> I'll ask you to inspect your own attitude. The statements you're making
|> here elevates single-moms and says nothing about single-dads. We men
|> make pretty damn good parents too. While you're at it, I'll ask you to
|> give some thought to NCP fathers, like me, who are VERY MUCH an important
|> part of their kids lives, and consider the needs and even wants of their 
|> children as very important.
|> 
|> Yes, I complain about the money. You bet I do. The laws on basic support
|> grants allows (in my state) for 45% of my gross to be tapped. Which, BTW
|> is what they get from me. However, the law also allows for consideration
|> of other elements, like my new wife's income for 'Extraordinary Expenses'
|> above and beyond the basic support award. That translates into my wife
|> paying support for kids that aren't even hers. Yes, Mic, I do complain
|> about money. You bet your ears I do. I complain because the total amount
|> of the award --base plus extraordinary-- amounts to 68% of my gross. On
|> top of that, I have the kids a MINIMUM of 1/4th of the year, and have
|> to deal with the costs of a home large enough for them to come to, the
|> food they eat when they're here, the costs of the activities, clothing,
|> transportation --all of the same expenses you face as a single mom. The
|> one difference is that I don't have anyone augmenting MY family income
|> to help defray the costs --like custodial parents with support awards
|> do.
|> 
|> But let's look a little beyond that, Mic. My kids go to summer school
|> to study art and music, play little league baseball, go to basketball
|> camp, swimming lessons, and a hoarde of other things. I help pay for
|> these things, provide transportation, and am involved in the activities
|> as well. Sure, I do it because I love my kids and I want to. But the
|> point is, I DO do these things, and contribute dollars ABOVE the order
|> to do it.
|> 
|> And I still complain about money. I complain that I have to pay taxes on
|> the money I pay for support, but that money is tax-free to my ex. I
|> bitch about a lot of things related to the state-imparted economic
|> assessments made against me. I complain that I had to pay for my ex's
|> lawyer every damn time we went to court --to get an increase, or to try
|> to fight an increase.
|> 
|> I complain because the costs of the support system --no less the support
|> itself, drove me and my new wife into bankruptcy while my ex was able
|> to buy a new (and pretty expensive house). I complain because the bank
|> took my new wife's car --that she bought with her own money before we
|> were married-- in the bankruptcy. Not to mention a number of other items
|> which included the house she owned and had been paying on for eight years.
|> I complain that the whole situation caused me to go on public assistance,
|> and that the amount of support didn't waver a bit --staying at the same
|> amount it was set at. The amount, by the way, was 220% of my income at
|> that time.
|> 
|> So Mic, the next time you want to complain and get angry over generalization,
|> you might give thought to your own perspectives, and the damage that they
|> do to people  -- in the same way generalizations damaged you.
|> 
|> Yes, I complain about the money. So would you if you saw it from another
|> perspective. One which didn't generalize and make assumptions based only
|> in your limited scope of understanding. I say that to you, and I say that
|> to those who want to give up their choice not to make kids, and then want
|> the choice to refuse responsibility for the child they made. You opinion
|> and theirs deal in different circumstances, but they really aren't that
|> different in that they ignore realities of life in favor of self-indulgence.
|> 
|> 
|> ---
|> Bob Kirkpatrick  --  Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
|> root@dogear.spk.wa.us           bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us