HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: asim@heckle.ugcs.caltech.edu (A. M. Mughal)
Subject: Re: PAKISTAN KA MATLUB KAYA ?????
Organization: Caltech Undergraduate Computer Science
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 17:10:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.124004.10902@hippo.ru.ac.za> g89r4255@hippo.ru.ac.za (Lt Sajid Rahim) writes:
>I agree, Islam is completely impractical. The facts point to this.


	Islam is not be be blamed if the followers don't implement it
	or abuse its name to reach their own political or personal gains.

>In Pakistan, a country born out of an idea for a moslem homeland,
>where everything was to be followed along the lines of the 
>Koran. 
	It was supposed to be along those lines but no one follows those
	lines anymore (as it seems). 
>
>Guess again! Everything is being followed along its lines provided
>it fulfils one's ambition. The so called land of pure is a land
>of total corruption, unlawfullness and nepotism. It has turned into
>a land of thugs, crooks, and anything else you can think off. 

	Islam still denounces all the above and does NOT approve of it.
	Just because the followers are doing something doesn't necessarily
	means Islam approves of it. 
>
>I wish Allama Iqbal was here to comment. He would have said just
>repeated what he did in Jawab Shikwa Jawab, "Ounton ke hudikhan
>gaye apni baglon meh baglon me koran gaye. Khandazan kufur hai,
>aisas thuje hai ke nehai".
>
>Islam is there just to be shown and used for power play. Islam
>as far as I am concerned is finished and has nearly ceased to
>exist. If a statistical survey was to be carried out today,

	It still exists as it existed over 1400 years ago. The difference
	is today at least in Pakistan very few people are really following 
	it.                          
>it will be shown that most people are muslim by birth and 
>are so called "non practisinng" muslim.
>
>This may be offensive to some people. My apologies.  Pakistan
>should take off it shroud of religion. Religion is like a york
>holding its people down. Take it off and become free from its
>burden.

	No, it is not at all offensive. I understand your frustrations and
	agony but I think the blame is being put at the wrong place. The 
	blame lies with the people. If,in fact, people of Pakistan were 
	following the Islamic guidelines we wouldn't be seeing the problems
	you mentioned above. The religion is not holding anyone down, it will
	and can free us from the problems we face today. As you mentioned too
	no one is following it, they have already freed themselves from it 
	and see where it is leading the country... 

>
>Sajid
>
>-- 
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>--   Sajid Rahim, Dept of Computer Science, Rhodes University,     --
>--   Grahamstown, South Africa. Internet : g89r4255@hippo.ru.ac.za --
>---------------------------------------------------------------------


Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:14344 soc.culture.african:4464 soc.culture.afghanistan:915 soc.culture.arabic:3465 soc.culture.turkish:9505 soc.culture.yugoslavia:8338
From: mughal@iago.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Bosnia has seven weeks to live!
Keywords: Bosnia
Date: 30 Aug 92 02:41:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug29.233100.12465@ucunix.san.uc.edu>, minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes...
>In article <mirza.715125628@terminus.sce.carleton.ca> mirza@sce.carleton.ca (Murad A. Mirza) writes:
>>assalam alaikum
> 
>What the f*** is going on? Why don't the Muslims do anything? I am willing to
>help in any way I can.

     Well, it appears a total bayhisee. Muslims can't do anything because
     they are not organized. Everyone may be willing to help but  something
     like this requires a collective effort, on individual level one can
     probably give donations which may not be sufficient. 

     Maybe convincing our governments to take some joint action together
     on international level, like sending in help and defend Bosnians
     and not just send cans of food, donations or arrange conferences.
     IMHO

     For starters, Telephone numbers of Pakistan Embassy are as follows:

     Ambassador: (202)939-6210/General Line: -6200

     If someone in Washington DC area can look up the numbers of other 
     embassies and post them, it will be helpful.

     If we really do intend to make a difference, we need to act NOW!
     The clock is ticking away for Bosnians. How long are we going to 
     just about and wait for someone to do something when that someone
     can be you ?

     Asim Mughal
     [Standard Disclaimer]
> 
>zafar
> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: agulati@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anuranjan Gulati)
Subject: Re: English-Urdu Combos
Originator: agulati@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: agulati@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:39:19 GMT

From article <1992Aug26.165657.4749@seas.gwu.edu>, by ahmad@seas.gwu.edu (Aftab Ahmad):
> 
> 
> 	For Example kay tor par
> 
> 	By God di qasmei'N
> 
> 	Nothing vee nai'N
> 
> Any hore?

	lo hore ji ;-)

	how are tu ?

koi more ji !!

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: alam@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ALAM AFSHAN)
Subject: shooting husbands(not to b taken seriously need i add) : )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 01:52:13 GMT

merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.183759.1@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu>, ali@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu writes:
>> I for one would shoot my good man in case he became interested in 
>> acquiring another wife.  No doubt about it!!
which reminds me.heh.
this woman goes to the gun shop.'i'd like a gun for my husband please.'
'did he specify what caliber he wanted?' 'r u kidding?he doesn't even
know i'm going to shoot him.'
and another. the crystal gazer says solemnly 'i'm afraid yr husband is
gonna die soon' to which she replies impatiently 'i alrdy know that. but
does yr crystal say anything about an enquiry?'
then there's the nonviolent way of getting rid of a husband. this lady
calls her lawyer 'i'd like a divorce.' 'do u have a reason for that?'
'yes.i'm married.'
:)

>But then you would lose your good man!! ;-)  Just kidding!! I see your
and u know what they say ab it being hard to find a good man or was it
the other way around :)

>> jahanara  
>-Rukhsana
Afshan.  uh-huh:)
From: ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: A thought
Date: 30 Aug 92 15:07:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.8ecJGsK00VAwI2mlQ_
Organization: Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Cursing the lack of morals, integrity, etc. of the Western powers
is commonplace here.

We have various freedom/"freedom" movements going on -- India-wise its
Khalistani, Kashmiri, Assamese. Then there are Sri Lankan Tamils. Now,
I don't know much about the Assamese problem, but I do know that in the
case of Kashmir, Punjab and the Sri Lankan Tamils, their organizations
do kill a good number of the people whose rights they are "fighting" for.
(I won't comment on the Pakistani organizations claiming to be fighting
for rights). Thinking about it, the same is true for the PLO.
Compare it to the desi experience of winning freedom from colonial rule.
Factions in the movement didn't go about assassinating each other (except
perhaps, character-assassination in speeches :-). You might say -- oh, the
above mentioned freedom movements have to guard against collaborators.
Arrey bhai, the police and army enforcing British rule in desh were collabo-
rators, and we have accepted them, incorporated them into our independent
states.

Since of course, denying that these people are freedomfighters is absurd :-),
the conclusion of course is that our own societies are less civilized in
behavior than were our erstwhile colonial masters, the British; the plea
being that tactics that worked against the British won't work in these cases.

Why then rail against the West ?

-arun
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:14434 soc.culture.bangladesh:4689 soc.culture.turkish:9637 soc.culture.arabic:3507 soc.culture.afghanistan:935 soc.culture.asean:5940 soc.culture.african:4530 soc.culture.lebanon:3914
From: minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.asean,soc.culutre.african,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.african-american,soc.culture.irania
Subject: ISNA Convention
Date: 3 Sep 92 02:16:07 GMT
Organization: University of Cincinnati

to any and all readers of this message. on labor day weekend will be the 25th
annual Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) it will as usual be discussing
various issues that affect muslims both in america and canada as well as the 
rest of the world. some of the hot topics that will be discuss will the 
formation of the newly independant republics, the drought in somalia, and the
massacre in bosnia.
for those who are not interested in politics there will be discussions on how 
the muslims can keep their islamic identity in this country, (formation of
private schools, state recognition of the two eid's, etc.). there are many more
interesting topics that will be discussed. i personally urge all that are
able to attend to please do so. it is open for anyone who is interested in
attending and willing to pay the registration fee. it is open for all races
and religions as well. 
above are just a few of the things discussed there are many activities for
children as well. i urge those muslim parents who are concerened about being
answerable to the creator to please bring their children along.
it is not only informative, it is also fun. there are many diversion for 
relaxation provided not only by the convention but also by the city of kansas.
last year there were 10,000 attendees, it is projected that the total number will be over 15,000. it will be a good experience to learn enjoy and get a taste 
of the various people of the various cultures.


i hope to see you there

zafar

ps for more information please reply by e-mail
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: How the Europeans overtook the Arabs...
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:58:19 GMT

ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta) writes:
: 
: A book I looked at recently had three reasons why the
: Europeans were successful in taking over the sea-routes
: from the Arabs.
: 
: (i) Since the Mediterreanean was an Islamic pond (so the book
: says :-)), the Europeans had to learn to navigate in the much
: more inclement Atlantic.
: 
: (ii) Islam uses a muezzin to call for prayers; the Christians
: use church bells. The expertise in casting bronze bells was
: easily transferred to casting cannon.
: 
: (iii) general Middle Eastern shortage of timber !!
: 
: So, with skills honed in the unforgiving, stormy Atlantic,
: cheaper resources to build ships, and superior armaments,
: the Europeans edged out the Arabic and later Ottoman fleets.
: 
: Any comments ?
: 
: -arun gupta

I would say all these contributary factors (possibly) to the main 
cause of Muslims decline, which is the decline in the respect for
knowledge and people of knowledge. 

For reasons that are a mystery, and will continue to be one of the
most hotly debatedly topics for the indefinate future, christian
respect for science and technology coincided almost exactly with
the opposite among muslims. Essentially, it was Newton's law
-- F=ma (F:=force; m:=mass; a:=accleration) -- that gave the 
christian world at last the greatest weopon the world has ever known.
With this equation (and all the other related scientific principles
e.g. fluid mechanics, celestial mechanics and so and so on .... )
and the freedom to express the principles that this encoded inspite
of the mullahs (=priests) was the decisive landmark which changed the
course of history for all time to come. 

In contrast, Muslims rulers had reached the point where scholars
were ostracised and even killed on occassions. One famous scientist
even had to claim insanity in order to save himself. Even the
great Ibn Khaldum, one of the great founding fathers of modern
perspectives of history, spoke contemptuously of the European
scientific and technological efforts that he had 'heard' of. 

The world has now turned full circle. Muslims taught the world, now
they are going to the rest of the world to reclaim their long lost
heritage.

AND IT'S ABOUT TIME!!

Peace.

-Nadeem Malik 	nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mirza@vxcrna.cern.ch (MIRZA,I./EP)
Subject: Re: How the Europeans overtook the Arabs...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 09:19:00 GMT

In article <sebONji00VAwE2_pFI@andrew.cmu.edu>, ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta) writes...
> 
>A book I looked at recently had three reasons why the
>Europeans were successful in taking over the sea-routes
>from the Arabs.
>
	seems to be an over simplified picture.

>(i) Since the Mediterreanean was an Islamic pond (so the book
>says :-)), the Europeans had to learn to navigate in the much
>more inclement Atlantic.
>
   Arabs did not cross Atlantic (or may be they did and never
   returned) but they did go to china, Not a simple way by
   any standard. All the navigational methods are also
   due to arabs. 

>(ii) Islam uses a muezzin to call for prayers; the Christians
>use church bells. The expertise in casting bronze bells was
>easily transferred to casting cannon.
> 
  Ottoman in Turkey, moors in spain and Moghals in India did
  use canons some of them mastered this techniqe. I read somewhere
  but I am not sure about it that canon business started in
  china and was known to arabs since long ago?.

>(iii) general Middle Eastern shortage of timber !!
> 
  Again it is hard to understand that Moors, ottomans or Mughals
  could have any shortage of timber. Even now these areas have
  lot of it. Mountains arround garnada are full of timber and
  so is savile.
	
>So, with skills honed in the unforgiving, stormy Atlantic,
>cheaper resources to build ships, and superior armaments,
>the Europeans edged out the Arabic and later Ottoman fleets.
> 
>Any comments ?
>
   Murphys Law: every society/culture/religon/God/ism or individual
                will be edged out by the the flow of time.
                (do you know any exception?).	

   {when i was a kid and first time read about moors I asked
    my mother that why these muslims were defeated by the 
    christians?, she answered that they were punished by god
    for drinking alkohal.}	

>-arun gupta
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: aj3u@topaz.cs.virginia.edu (Asim Jalis)
Subject: Re: Multiple wives
Organization: University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22903
	<1992Aug22.061724.3951@sol.cs.wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:39:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.061724.3951@sol.cs.wmich.edu>
sherwani@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Naveed Sherwani) asks whether there is
some ambiguity concerning when a man can marry and when he
cannot.  He asks this in the context of polygamy.  My response
follows.

1.  There is no restriction on when one can marry.  The fact that
none appears in the Quran and in the Hadith implies that the
issue is not vague at all -- one can marry whenever one wants
except where one already has four wives.

2. As far as the rights of women are concerned: a husband has to
seek the permission of his wife before he marries a new one.  If
the wife refuses to give permission the husband can divorce her,
or the wife can ask for a divorce and be divorced; the wife would
probably want to get divorced anyway since the marriage is
obviously becoming difficult to maintain.

3. In our culture (Pakistani culture) divorce is considered as a
prelude to spinsterhood and a life of misery for the woman, since
her chances of getting married again are nil and her share in
property and wealth is also usually usurped.  So (1) and (2)
might appear unjust.  However, in the Arabian society of early
Islam divorce was not as stigmatized -- except for Aishah all of
our beloved Prophet's (may God bless him and grant him peace)
wives were either divorcees or widows.  So getting separated and
divorced from a husband was not oppressive in that society.

4. Then again in Pakistani society monogamy is largely the rule,
so the situation is not so bad after all.  However, I still
maintain that the society of early Islam as reflected through the
reports of the chroniclers was superior in all respects to ours.
   In my opinion we should alter our society and social setup
through education and the media so that it becomes closer to the
social setup that existed around the time of early Islam.

Asim Jalis.
From: gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu (Gopal Agrawal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: SUMMARY OF OLD PAGAN CULTS
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:22:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamsun.1992Sep4.202235.25081
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University


In article <1992Sep4.104938.11749@doug.cae.wisc.edu> irfan@wiener.ece.wisc.edu (Irfan Alan) writes:
>SUMMARY OF SOME OLD PAGAN CULTS 
>
>ATHUS:  Mediterranean Area.  2-3 Thousand years ago.  
>Born to a virgin with a name Nana.  Called only begotten 
>
>ADAMUS:  Known to Greeks, Babylonians.  Born to a virgin.  
>Called 'Savior of Syria'.  He suffered death for the
>
>DYANISHES or BAKUS:  Greek god.  Born to a virgin with 
>a name Dematur.  Only begotten son of Jupiter.  
>
>OSIRUS:  Egyptian god.  Born to a virgin with a name 
>'Virgin of the World'.  Born on December 25th.  
>
>MITHRUS:  Mediterranean god, sun-god of Persians.  
>Born to a virgin.  Perfect prototype of Jesus Christ 
>

Notice that all of them are born to virgins. IMO, ancient
societies had the same hangup about sex and virginity that 
most conservative societies have even today. 

Anyone who was given the title of 'prophet' had to be PURE 
in every respect. The biographers of these prophets would 
dare not slander them in anyway. Even their mothers could 
not be slandered.  Only eulogies would be acceptable. 

Hence, the first and foremost thing that comes into their 
mind is "Aha..he must have been born to a virgin mother". 
While people may debate all they want on how it is biologically
possible for a virgin to give birth, they should perhaps 
ponder on the reasons why these mothers were virgins in the 
first place ?  Were their husbands impotent ?  Gay ? 

regards,
--   
   ______ ______ ______ ______ __  |\/\/\/|
    ____/  __  /  __  /  __  /  /  |  \  /|   LIFE'S COMPLEX - IT HAS 
   / __   /   /  /   /  /   /  /   | (o)(o)   REAL & IMAGINARY PARTS  
  /   /  /   /   ___/  __  /  /    C      _) 
_____/ _____/ __/   __/ __/ ______/ | \___|  
E-mail - gagrawal@cs.tamu.edu       |   /   All Std. Disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: Naseer Khan <khan@us17501.mdc.com>
Subject: Re: the terminator part n : )
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 21:50:11 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Sunny Southern California
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6CBD465E902CDAB@l33359.mdc.com>
X-Xxdate: Thu, 3 Sep 92 22:40:37 GMT

In article .... ADIL NAJAM, anajam@athena.mit.edu writes:

>	So dear friends, when those in heaven contemplate and discuss the
>	intricities of either "group sex" or of "homosexuality" under that
>	pomegranade tree, by the rivers of milk and honey, with "hoors"
>	flutering around you........rest assured this sinful source would
>	be watching from his window seat in hell, maybe with a smile (or would
>	it be a smirk) on his face..........
>

Oh, how easily you condemn yourself to an ETERNITY of conditions that you
could not now withstand for even a minute.  You know, I contemplated
fornication (oh my, I said a bad word) once when it was within reach at
college.  But then I noticed that I couldn't even hold my finger on a hot
stove spiral for more than say 3 seconds.  That was a powerful motivator
for me to stay on the Sirat-ul-Mustaqeen.  I even pay attention to what
the Tableeqi Jamaat people have to say now.

>	.....wouldn't it be odd if good folks like you would be rewarded 
>	by the very thing in heaven for which other souls would be condemned
>	to burn in hell????????
>			

Ours is not to question why, ours is to do [dhikr] and die!

>	.........I digress........I pause........hey, why is it getting
>	so hot...........and who is that red fellow with a tail hovering
>	around my screen..........

I hope y'all don't confuse my wanting to go to Jannat as me saying that
I think I will.  In fact, I think it's getting a bit hot around here too,
and hey, does that guy in the red tights over there have horns...???!!!

      |      |                        Signed:  Naseer Khan
      | (~)(o)                                 ___________
     C      _)
      | ,___|                                  khan@us17501.mdc.com
From: khan@us17501.mdc.com (Naseer Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: ABCDs
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Sunny Southern California
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6CBD2042701CDAB@l33359.mdc.com>
X-Xxdate: Thu, 3 Sep 92 22:30:28 GMT

In article ... Manoj Ghayalod, mg819306@ucunix.san.uc.edu writes:

>happenings in India.  Is this also true about Pakistani ABCDs?
>And also here in the US where the ABCDs are always in contact with 
>different cultures, so what makes them narrow minded?
>

I'd just say one statement which I found to be true in many a
circumstance:

   "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."
   
It did mine, and I'm not even from Pakistan......!!!!!


      |      |                        Signed:  Naseer Khan
      | (~)(o)                                 ___________
     C      _)
      | ,___|                                  khan@us17501.mdc.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.indian
From: guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim E. Guncer )
Subject: Moors, Ottomans (was Re: WOMEN GAVE GOLD TO BOSNIA
Organization: Arizona State University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:35:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.135056.11449@digi.lonestar.org>, msardar@digi.lonestar.org (Mohammed Tariq Sardar) writes:
>...
(usual religo-centrist diversions on the Bosnian conflict deleted) 

> 
> For many years i  use to wonder why moslem lost SPAIN? Just looking  at BOSNIA it has
> become clear the OTTOMAN KHALIFA must have been busy pleasing the  KAFFARS by making
> treaties to preserve his Empire.
> 

Another confused mind I see here. The Ottomans were not even near the 
region at that time (13-15.th centuries). I think you should blame
the incapabilities of the Islamic society with coping with outside
socio-economic developments in her decline in Spain and elsewhere in the 
world.  
The treaties you refer to, the "Capitulations", date much later into the  
16.th century during the reign of sultan Suleyman. They are consistent with 
Islamic economic practices. So instead of blaming the Muslim rulers
on actions which they took to confirm with Islamic rules, I think you should
be critical of those rules in the first place. There are numerous 
studies and articles which might help you understand the effect of 
violation of basic economic principles due to the so-called "Islamic
principles in economy". The decline of Islamic powers was only natural.

>			      					wasallam
> 
> 							        Tariq Sardar


Selim Guncer

--
Selim E. Guncer               | Jaca negra, luna grande,
CSSER-ASU                     | y aceitunas en mi alforja.
(602)-965-4096                | Aunque sepa los caminos
guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu     | yo nunca llegare a Cordoba.. (FGL)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan