From: mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee)
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Organization: Royal Roads Military College, Victoria, B.C.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 01:32:19 GMT


In article <t#f=Nj=@engin.umich.edu>, ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan8.050042.6458@julian.uwo.ca> roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
|> >In article <C0I3v7.82E@acsu.buffalo.edu> v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:
|> >>I don't think you're getting my point.  Imagine that you're God and that you're
|> >>about to create the universe.  Now assume that "we were meant to be his
|> >>companions" as you claim above.  Then why didn't he create only those who would
|> >>eventually "choose" to worship him with their Free Will?  If you take your
|> >
|> >If he created only those who would choose to be with him, those people would
|> >not have a choice. 
|> 
|>  Look, you are not not getting what is being said here, and I'm not
|> sure how to phrase it more simply. Look...
|>  1) God's omniscient. Among other things, this means...
|>  2) God knows what people would have done if things had been different.
|>   From 2, we get...
|>  3) God knows what people would have done if they had been created.
|>  4) God knows what people will do before It created them.
|>   Also, we have...
|>  5) God's omnibenevolent, so good that It would never do anything bad,
|>     and never wants anything to suffer.
|>   Ergo...
|>  6) God could and would create only those beings that would freely choose
|>     to follow/accept/praise/whatever It. Making a person that would *not*
|>     do so would be equivalent to making someone just to be damned, which
|>     is contrary to 5.
|> 
God creates everyone in His image and therefore, everyone has the potential to be
saved.  Free will is something God cannot change for us.  That's why it's called
Free will.  If God were to dictate our decisions, it would  take away our free
will.  You can't blame God for the choices we make.  We have to suffer the
consequences of the decisions we make.  Even if God knows that we will not choose
Him, He will not deny the gift of life to that person.  If one chooses not to
live with God, then God will remove His presence from that person when he dies.
That is Hell.

|>  Secondly, of course, we often see here the assertion that it is 'impossible'
|> for there to exist a creature with free will that is beyond the possibility
|> of evil.
|>  There is but one response:
|>  According to the specs, God never does and would never do evil. Ergo, God
|> does not have free will.
God will do no evil because it is contrary to His nature.

|>  If you say that God *does* have free will, the question becomes: Then why
|> not make humans with this delightful property of simultaneously having free
|> will and never doing evil?
Sin is very much a part of our nature.  We commit it freely and sometimes, quite
unknowingly.

|>  If you agree and say that God does not have free will, then the question
|> becomes: We are supposed to be like God in every way. Being different from
|> God is not desirable. (whether we can actually do this is a separate
|> topic.) Thus, free will can't be anything desirable, since God doesn't
|> have it, and so why would God make humans with free will?
|> 
God has free will without the burden of sin.  What am I talking about?  When you
see a very attractive woman, it is that carnal part of your nature that changes
your perspective of her to being a sexual object rather than seeing her as a living, respectable human being.  God does not have a carnal nature and this is
what we should try to emulate.  We won't always succeed simply because we are
still human and failing is one of our attributes, but it is trying that counts.  

|>  Finally, *please* try to trim your quotes. It makes the article so much
|> shorter and more likely to be read.
|> 
|>  Sincerely,
|>  
|>  Ray Ingles
|>  ingles@engin.umich.edu
|> 
|>  "Is knowledge knowable? If not, how do we know this?" -- Woody Allen
 
Thank you, Ray.