HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arun Welch)
Subject: Re: Mead recipes?
Originator: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: OSU-LAIR
	<1992Aug25.130324.16944@progress.com> <22903@sybase.sybase.com>
	<1992Sep1.140444.4805@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:20:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.140444.4805@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:


   He says that
   although it's illegal to make at home there are some interesting
   points to note about it.  He then goes on to tell us the temperature
   at which the alcohol will boil out (raise the temp a bit to get 
   honey flavor with it) and how it easily condenses on cool surfaces.

Our local grocery store sells malt extract, which I thought was kinda
strange.. I was pointing this out to an older brewing friend, and he
explained to me why:

During Prohibition, malt extract was considered a food item, and sold
as "malt syrup". The cans came with very detailed itemized
instructions on making beer, with each item preceeded by the phrase
"DO NOT". ie, they read something like:

1) Do not sterilise a bucket.
2) Do not pour the contents of this can into a pot containing 3
gallons of water.
3) Do not gently heat this mixture to a temperature of y degrees.
4) Do not add X oz. of hops.
5) Do not simmer this for 5 minutes.
6) Do not pour the mixture into the bucket containing 2 gallons of
water

and so on, even down to
n) Do not bottle the resulting liquid.
n+1) Do not chill and then drink.

Apparently there was nothing the government could do about these
instructions, since they pretty clearly stated what someone should not
do.


...arun
From: anvil@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Boiled Pudding Question?
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:15:39 GMT

Could someone please give me some information about boiled puddings? What are
their origins? What kind of cloth is the bag made?  The only kind of pudding
I know about is Jello instant.  Any info is appreciated. Also what the heck
are scounes (sp?). 
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dcoder@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Reply-To: dave@nucleus.immunol.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:01:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.224617.22751@news.acns.nwu.edu> bayla@casbah.acns.nwu.edu  
(Bayla Singer) writes:

Sorry, Claviceps purpurea -isn't- the scientific name of the buggie I
remember.  i suspected it might be similar to, but not identical with,
ergot.  The micro-organism in question definitely feeds on wheat, and was
known to contaminate flour and such cooked breaststuffs as communion hosts.

----
The grain and hysteria aspects of what was described were similar to ergot. 
However the bug you're describing is Serratia marcescens, a bacterium that  
grows nicely nicely on starchy substrates making bright red spots; the color is  
due to the pigment, prodigiosin.  Medically it's generally not a nasty bug  
(it's implicated in infant gastroenteritis), but in compromised patients, it  
can be an opportunistic pathogen. 

There is a substantial medieval (and later) literature relating to  Serratia  
contamination of communion hosts. The effects on people are not physological,  
but entirely sociological. Imagine blood-red spots appearing "spontaneously" on  
the hosts. It seems this could be interpreted several ways, but it seems to  
take more often as a bad omen, resulting in the violent persecution of various  
groups, particularly non-Christians.

It was also used by the military in the San Francisco Bay area in the early  
sixties (I think) as a tracer to examine the potential atmospheric spread of  
bacteria in biological warfare--quite easy to see red colonies on petri plates  
exposed to the air. This resulted in the death of at least one man (had lung  
problems as I recall). His family sued the government, but lost. Sixty Minutes  
had a piece on it about a dozen years ago.

Dave Coder
From: jheath@CERIS.Purdue.EDU (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:44:04 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

From article <1992Sep1.195228.10021@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov>, by julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas):
> I was catching up on my reading when I noticed an article in
> Science News that is relevant to this topic.  Germander and
> comfrey teas and capsules may cause hepatitis.  A researcher
> at the University of Arizona, Ryan Huxtable, says that
> the chemical in germander and comfrey that causes hepatitis has
> not yet been identified.  Huxtable advises against daily use
> of herbal products.
>

I thought the way they talk at the blood center, that hepatitis
is "caused" by a virus. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: Ramon Tate
Subject: Re: Apples Apples everywhere
Organization: Computer Systems Lab., NIH
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:07:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.124026.28870@cl.cam.ac.uk> nmm@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nick
Maclaren) writes:
>In article <JUSTIN92Aug26.132924@inmet.camb.inmet.com>,
>justin@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:
>

[stuff about making fruit butters/leathers deleted]

>Be warned - it spatters and sticks to skin.  At at a temperature of about
>220-230 Fahrenheit, that is definitely not funny, so you need protective
>clothing around your stirring hand.  It will burn if you don't stir it
>constantly in the latter stages, so you can't take time off to put your
>hand into water either ....
>
>
>Nick Maclaren
[etc.]
>
A modern-day trick to avoid this particular danger: do the final stages in
the oven in shallow pans (avoid aluminum<-soluble in acids!) at a low
temperature: 250F or so is what I recall. If the temperature is low
enough, you will not get spattering. The pans must be stirred about every
half hour, to bring the higher moisture content material to the surface
and create a uniform product [your "mileage" may vary]. I have used this
method for several years now with excellent results. It is quite easy
to get a much thicker product by this method than by the traditional
"stirred-pot" method. I like to make a relatively stiff paste in this manner
and then thin it to the desired eating consistency with hot cider that has been
boiled down to a syrup (much easier to do without spattering). The cider syrup
also imparts a very nice sheen to the butter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramon L. Tate
Computer Systems Laboratory, DCRT
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, MD 20892                               tate@faxcsl.dcrt.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm)
Subject: Re: Mead recipes?
Followup-To: rec.food.historic
Summary: Mead brandy is drink fit for gods.
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:47:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.140444.4805@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>
Stuff about first batch of homebrew deleted.
>I also picked up the mead book by Papazian and <I-forgot-his-name>.
>I had to laugh when Papazian describes mead brandy.  He says that
>although it's illegal to make at home there are some interesting
>points to note about it.  He then goes on to tell us the temperature
>at which the alcohol will boil out (raise the temp a bit to get 
>honey flavor with it) and how it easily condenses on cool surfaces.
>Isn't pure scholarship great? ;-)
>
>Julie
>#include "std_disclaimer.h"
>#include "witty_sig.h"

Yep, mead brandy is wonderfull drink. The only problem is that
distilling your own is illegal almost everywhere. Mead brandy
diluted to about 40% by vol and sweetened by cood quality honey
is about best strong alcoholic drink I have ever drinked.

seismo



-- 
-------
   sm@tukki.jyu.fi  (seismo malm)
From: nmm@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Apples Apples everywhere
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:40:26 GMT
Reply-To: nmm@cl.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <JUSTIN92Aug26.132924@inmet.camb.inmet.com>,
justin@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:
 
|> Getting back to specifically historical stuff, I recall once (several years
|> ago) working with a recipe that makes (essentially) apple leather. You
|> need to add a good deal of sugar, and I recall that the recipe calls for
|> a small quantity of wine, instead of water, but it's basically what Bob
|> describes here. Once you've got the mixture seriously reduced and
|> thickened, you lay it out in thin pans in the sun for several days.
|> (A practical alternative, if making this in the winter, is to lay it
|> on the radiator.) Quite tasty, and keeps pretty much forever.
|> 
|> Actually, thinking back on it, it seems to me that the recipe called
|> for a combination of apples and pears. Largely the same result, though...

You will find this in a good many traditional English cookbooks under the
name of XXX Cheese - XXX can be any fruit with an appropriate texture and
acidity (quince is the canonical one).  Quoting from memory (i.e. I could
be wrong) this is in Jane Grigson's Fruit Cookery, and the original
marmelade was a quince butter of sorts.

I have made quince and crab-apple cheese, and both were delicious, but you
would probably need to add acid if you were starting from the very sweet
apples and pears preferred in most parts of the U.S.A.  Also, the thin pan
technique will work only in low-humidity areas (i.e. NOT England), and you
have to cook it down the whole way in high-humidity areas.

Be warned - it spatters and sticks to skin.  At at a temperature of about
220-230 Fahrenheit, that is definitely not funny, so you need protective
clothing around your stirring hand.  It will burn if you don't stir it
constantly in the latter stages, so you can't take time off to put your
hand into water either ....


Nick Maclaren
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street,
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email:  nmm@cl.cam.ac.uk
Tel.:   +44 223 334761
Fax:    +44 223 334679
From: rjd4@cus.cam.ac.uk (Bob Dowling)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: A Roman recipe
Keywords: Apicius, Roman, recipe
Date: 3 Sep 92 10:38:15 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

Here is a recipe from the book "The Roman Cookery of Apicius: Translated and
Adapted for the Modern Kitchen by John Edwards". (ISBN: 0-7126-2556-9 Published
in the UK by Century Hutchison Ltd. Price: L8.95) I include both the 
translation of Apicius' original and Edwards' modern adaptation.
It is next on my list of historic recipes to try but it looks fun...

--------
"patellam tyrotaricham ex quocumque salso volueris"
[A dish of cheese and whatever saltfish you wish]

Cook in olive oil and remove the bones. In a casserole dish, heat these 
ingredients together: cooked brains, the prepared fish, chicken livers, hard-
boiled eggs, and cheese made supple by having been washed in warm water. Then
mix pepper, lovage, oregano, rue berry, wine, mead, and oil. [Add this sauce]
to the pan and simmer over a slow fire. [When cooked] thicken with raw eggs.
Sprinkle with finely ground cumin and serve attractively. 

Modern rendition: 
1lb fish fillets, olive oil, 1 cup cooked calf's brains (chopped), 1 cup
chicken livers, 4 hard-boiled eggs (chopped), 1 cup melted mild white cheese.
[Sauce:] dash of ground pepper, .25 tsp. celery seed or lovage, .5 tsp. oregano,
2 rue berries (or peppercorns), 1 tsp. honey or mead, .25 cup wine, 2 tsp.
olive oil, 1 cup stock, 2 raw egg yolks, butter, ground cumin.

Lightly saute' the fish fillets in olive oil, debone them, and break the 
fillets into pieces. Heat these together with chopped calf's brains, chicken
livers, hard-boiled eggs, and melted cheese. (The cheese may first be steeped
in vinegar and thyme.)

Meanwhile, grind together, in a mortar, pepper, celery seed or lovage, oregano,
and a couple of rue berries (or peppercorns). Combine with honey (or mead),
wine, and olive oil. [There's no mention of what to do with the stock in the
recipe's instructions. I assume it goes here.] Thicken this sauce with well
beaten yolks and add to the first dish. Cook in a buttered casserole for 20 to 
30 minutes in a 375F (190C?) oven. Serve with a sprinkling of cumin (or sprinkle 
on top while cooking.)
--------

On the grounds of modern tastes and wimpish squeaminess I would skip the calf's
brains. (There's also the matter of endemic BSE but that's another rant.)

The book itself is excellent and I would suggest it to anyone who wants to try
some recreational historic food. 

--------
Bob Dowling:                    UNIX Support,
                                University of Cambridge Computing Service,
rjd4@cus.cam.ac.uk              New Museums Site, Pembroke Street,
+44 223 334728                  Cambridge, UK.  CB2 3QG.
--------
The views, opinions and purported facts above are purely my own and are not
intended to reflect the views, opinions and beliefs of my employer.
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Mead recipes?
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:11:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca

Hi, everyone.  David Adams quotes Schuldy, and asks,

>|One last thing... (:-)
>|
>|Terry Nutter (My friend, Angharad...) wrote that she stores sparkling
>|meads in 2-liter plastic bottles.  I've read enough debates on the
>|net to know that this is far from a settled issue, but the folks who
>|said not to use them for alcoholic beverage storage were chemists...
>|Certainly, I've tasted meads that were aged for two or three years
>|in soda bottles, and they tasted like plastic.  It may not be safe.
>
>Can you give any more information about why it may not be safe?
>
>Why doesn't the soda taste like plastic?  
>
>Why doesn't vinegar taste like plastic?
>
>Why doesn't ...

I don't know about this, but I have a suspicion.  Some compounds are not
soluble in water or acid, but are in alcohol (the stuff that makes peppers
hot is like this, which is why beer helps so much more than water or Coke).
I've only used the plastic bottles on meads with a very low alcohol content,
(and wouldn't have used them then if I'd known about the warning), and got
no "flavor bleed" -- the problem may be solubility in alcohol.

Anyhow, if Schuldy says that chemists say don't use 'em, then I'd say,
he's got a point about glass working fine.

Cheers,

-- Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     jtn@vtopus.cs.vt.edu     (703)552-1598
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Isitt book (was Re: Apples Apples everywhere)
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:25:44 GMT

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>It's called _Take_A_Buttock_of_Beefe_, by Verity Isitt.
>...
>She has done a lot of research about food, cooking and regions in
>general, but didn't include a single footnote (darn).  Each set
>of facing pages has an original recipe, some text about the principal
>ingredient, and the opposite page has a modern recipe in Metric units.
>The modern recipe is sometimes a redaction, but more often is a
>similar recipe, and sometimes is just some random recipe.  The
>illustrations are very nice, too.

I bought this one too, a bit over a year ago (i.e. at Pennsic, for the
SCA-ers reading this).  As Mark points out, the "modern recipe" often
has very little to do with the original one with which it's paired (in
demonstrating this to someone, I opened the book at random and found
that one original recipe and its modern mate had NOT ONE INGREDIENT in
common!).  This wouldn't be so bad except for the facing-page
presentation which gives the false impression that the modern recipe
is somehow based on the original that precedes it.  The author never
actually lies (that I've noticed), but this sort of misdirection smacks
to me of bad scholarship.  Nevertheless, I bought it because it
contains original recipes from a primary source I'd never seen before.
I'd be hesitant about using it for anything else.

					Stephen Bloch
			(Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib in the SCA)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arun Welch)
Subject: Re: Apples Apples everywhere
Originator: welch@sacral.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: OSU-LAIR
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:45:40 GMT

> Commercial makers list tamarinds as a part of their recipe so that
>housewives will think that they cannot make their own as tamarinds are
>hard to find.

You can get dried tamarinds in some of our local grocery stores which
is pretty amazing considering it's Columbus, and Indian stores will
generally have tamarind concentrate. It's made by a company called
TamCon, and is a thick black paste, looking something like marmite.
It's *really* concentrated, like bullion cubes are soup concentrates.


> Actually tamarinds are nothing but the pod from
>a tree in India and is nothing but poor cattle food

I've never heard of anyone using tamarinds as cattle food, it's pretty
labor-intensive to pick the pods, not to mention the fact that there's
plenty of other stuff that's much more readily available and more
likely to be eaten by the cattle anyway. This is something like saying
that prunes are cattle food. 

> and if eaten in any quantity is a severe laxative. 

You'd have to eat a hell of a lot. *Anything* eaten in those
quantities is a severe laxative... Believe me, we had a couple of huge
tamarind trees in our back yard when I was growing up, and I've
certainly eaten a lot of them.

...arun
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Hacker, Anzus Consulting
welch@anzus.com



Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: red micro-organism
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:54:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.200801.14516@news.acns.nwu.edu> bayla@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bayla Singer) writes:
>A very helpful emailer has reminded me of the scientific name of the "red
>micro-organism" that I didn't think was ergot -- it's Serratia marcescens
>(we're not sure of the spelling) and basically harmless if breathed or
>touched.   
>
>It's a bacterium, not a mold: ergot is a mold (fungus).  
>
>I'll try to find my original reference, to determine if I misremembered the
>hallucination part: could be, that the witchcraft charges were because red
>spots breaking out inexplicably on the stored communion hosts just *had* to
>be caused by evil spirits... 
>

Actually, the red spots were often taken to be blood, hence "miracles of
bleeding hosts" etc. The Middle ages got quite a lot of mileage out
of that.


Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: cds@ossi.com (Chris Seabrook)
Subject: Re: Boiled Pudding Question?
Organization: Open Systems Solutions Inc.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:50:02 GMT

	I make boiled puddings quite frequently, they are one of the ways
I have of showing my American friends that British Cooking is not as bad as
its reputation.
	My favourite is the steak and kidney pudding which involves a quantity
of stewing/braising steak, some kidney and mushrooms simmered in stock for a
while before assembling the pudding.
	The dough is a suet pastry, that is made using self raising flour and
shredded beef suet in about 3-4 flour to 1 suet proportions. A ceramic pudding
basin is lined with the pasty, filled with the meat/stock and then the top
sealed with more pastry. The pudding is then boiled (or steamed) for a few
hours.
	The suet pastry on its own, with sugar and raisins added is the
tradditional 'spotted dick' pudding, served with butter and brown sugar.
--
Chris Seabrook		cds@ossi.com 			+1 510 652 6200 x118
Engineering Manager	Open System Solutions Inc	COINS: 7924-118

	Per saltire gules and Or, a sun counterchanged.
From: sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Presentation (was Re: Imported food (was curry))
Date: 30 Aug 92 01:09:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: ccu.1992Aug30.010946.2953
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

justin@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:
>... Chiquart (not so much by way of
>recipes, but the most interesting source I know in terms of period
>food *presentation*)...

At Pennsic this year I picked up yet another of the Falconwood Press
facsimiles, this one being "The Boke of Nurture", which seems to be a
late-19th-century collection of a bunch of 15th-16th-century works all
touching on matters of courtesy, hygiene, etc.  The longest and first
work in the collection, giving it its name, is "Iohn Russells Boke of
Nurture", and concerns itself primarily with how to be a good panter,
butler, carver, etc.  It discusses how to lay the tablecloth, how old
bread should be for various purposes (from one day for the master's
table loaf to five days for trenchers), how to cut and trim the
trenchers, how to arrange plates, knives, spoons, napkins, etc. as
well as containing a recipe for hypocras and a bunch of other neat
stuff.  And I haven't even gotten to the other 29 items in the
collection (many of which are, however, only a page or two long).

The 19th-century editor gives a running "translation" of the
15th-century English, which leaves out numerous details but seems
accurate for the most part.  He also provides explanatory notes that
often contradict what I've read from more recent scholars such as
Hieatt and Butler.  Lacking evidence to the contrary, I tend to
believe the latter.

					Stephen Bloch
			mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib in the SCA
From: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Dick Cleek)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: toxins in food
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:45:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1992Sep3.154544.11986
Reply-To: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

I seem to remember some evidence a few years ago that kwashiorkor,
the apparent protein deficiency disease of West Africa, might really
be caused by an aflatoxin occurring in stored grain. Certainly the map
of kwashiorkor in  Africa fits  the pattern of small grain cultivation
better that the map of protein consumption.
-- 
..........   .........................         .......................
: |_|\/\/ :   Dick Cleek                        dcleek@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
:.centers.:   Univ.of Wisconsin Centers         dcleek@uwcmail.uwc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic