From: L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis / Ethiopian Aliyah
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 16:08:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <C1Bn62.5Gp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <74244@cup.portal.com>
  <1993Jan24.204404.21911@cirrus.com>

chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>In article <74244@cup.portal.com> L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
>
>>	From what I have read of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, only a small
>>number have been allowed to immigrate into Israel, while Russian Jews have
>>been able to rain down aplenty.  I do understand that both groups have had
>>great difficulty finding meaningful jobs and proper housing, but I've also
>>understand that the Ethiopian Jews have been sequestered in the remote
>>lands of Israel.  Care to comment?
>
>Just another disinformation post by an *emotional* anti-Israelist.

	WHO is emotional?  :-) I made a statement based on what is
represented in the popular media (you know, the same media that says Saddam
Hussein is the devil incarnate).  If you can, please refrain from this
prejudice against anyone who would question the events in Israel, I am sure
that you'll have less emotionalism reflected back at you.

	As for this "disinformation," I did say "From what I have read of 
Ethiopian Jews in Israel..."   I am not attempting to spread any
disinformation.  If you can provide what you feel is a more accurate and
less biased source for your information, I would be more than happy to
follow up on it.  You won't win many friends and influence people with this
knee-jerk reactionism.

>Just how 
>do Russian Jews "rain down aplenty?"  That's simply an emotional appeal by a 
>smart-ass.  

	We've never had the pleasure of speaking at any length of time, so
the undue offense is noted and rejected.  And I do apologize if you can't
handle metaphors. :-)

>Anyway, 100% of the Beta Israel community has been airlifted to 
>Israel in Operation Moses and Operation Solomon.  What is your point?  That
>Israel didn't let in Blacks, but did let in Russians?  Sniff... sniff...
>I just know that that racist Judaism is around here somewhere...

	I'm sorry if you feel we can't discuss this without offensiveness
or sarcasm.  But I guess this is how you wish to conduct matters.  Can
anyone other than Mr. Metcalfe, who is not prone to insulting the other
party to make a point, please give me further info on the possible
imbalance between the influx and treatment of Ethiopian Jews vs. Russian
Jews, or, should I say, the balance of such?  I have no hard opinion on
this subject at all; any and all facts/opinions are welcome.

>You need to do some more reading; any source at all would have helped you
>get a correct understanding of these recent current events.

	Thank you for pointing out the utter ignorance I am now wallowing
in.  Due to your non-offensive reply, I am thus saved. :-)  Umm... You
presume too much.  Try again :-)

>Many of the Beta Israel have been located in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, as well
>as in Beer Sheva and towns in the Galil.  I spent an interesting afternoon
>last April walking through the Georgian and Beta Israel neighborhoods of
>Beer Sheva.

	Now that was said without condenscion or sarcasm.  So far, so good.
Unfortunately, the glaring ommission here is: What *did* you see in these
neighborhoods?  What were the living conditions like?  Who exactly were the
denizens thereof?

>>	I don't know what Wayne wants from what you define as "us," other
>>than what he's asked for (rational examination of Israel's ideological
>>presuppositions), but I know what I want; a non-emotional explanation of
>>the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people who themselves
>>were once brutalized.  Atrocities by any other name are still atrocities.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>--Louis
>
>Ah yes, let's pick up the history of this conflict where it suits you. 

	Obviously, you have misunderstood what the term "ongoing"
signifies.   If I say "current," would this be clearer? :-)

>Arab
>atrocities against Jews from the Classical Age, through the Medieval Age (as I
>have posted previously), into the Modern Age, the Inter-War period, and the 
>current period, are well documented.  That's Arab persecution of Jews in the
>100's, the 400's, the 600's, the 700's, the 800's, the 900's, 1000's, the 1100's, 
>the 1200's, the 1300's, the 1400's, the 1500's, the 1600's, the 1700's, 
>the 1800's, and 1900's throughout the Middle East.
>
>Yes, Jews were *also* persecuted in Europe.  So where were we supposed to go?
>We went home.

	I don't believe that the brutalization and persecution of Jewish
people has been lost on anyone reading this newsgroup.  Perhaps you have
difficulty perceiving our appreciation of such as we don't all pepper our
posts with constant reminders on how Jews have been historically stripped
of their wealth and dignity constantly?  Unless there are some real morons
here who'd like to contradict what is historical fact, this is, in so many
words, a given, and as such, does not need to be oft-repeated. For example,
the heritage I can lay claim to has a period in which Spain stole the
wealth of the its Jews and then had them banished enmasse. So, what's your
problem?  You presume upon the intelligence of anyone who would question
the *current* brutalization, which is certainly not against the Jews of
Israel.  Your sweeping personal judgements on the non-Jewish intelligence,
is, at best, remarkable. :-)

>You cannot characterize the current condition of Palestinian Arabs in the disputed
>territories as "the ongoing brutalization of a non-Jewish people by a people 
>who themselves were once brutalized".  This "we didn't do the Holocaust"
>argument doesn't fly, because it ignores the history of Arab violance against
>Jews outside of and within the context of WWII, and it ignores the context of 
>the perpetuation of the conflict by Arab confrontation states who sponsor
>terrorism against Israel and against each other.

	The distinct problem with this rationale is that it doesn't take
into account the reality of the present.  No one can justify current
violence with violence of the past.  Violence only begets violence.  I
don't see how this could be lost on anyone who follows this through with
logic (as opposed to emotionalism).

>Israeli's have no interest in supressing the Arab population as part of a racial
>scheme characterized by the need to be rid of them.  As a matter of national
>security, Israel will prevent terrorism against Israeli citizens in all its forms.

	What Israel's true motives are is not what I questioned, as my
above quoted paragraph clearly states.  I'm questioning the ongoing
brutalization by a people who were once themselves brutalized.  Is this
question not clear enough?

>Israel, as a party to the Peace Negotiations, recognizes that the final status
>of the disputed territories has not yet been determined.  The representatives of 
>Syria to the Peace Negotiations have a good understanding of this.  They know 
>what the score is, and they negotiate appropriatly.  I have more trust in them 
>than in the idiotic propaganda-swallowed-as-truth attitudes flying around in this 
>net forum.

	Of course, let's quell *any* questioning of Israel's policies or
motives so as to put a stop to this "idiotic propaganda-swallowed-as-truth 
attitudes flying around in the net forum." :-)

>-- Chris Metcalfe

Regards,

--Louis