HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:21:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.164402.12608@kth.se> d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Jan Sparrendahl) writes:
>In article <28SEP199209501550@jane.uh.edu>, mece21x@jane.uh.edu (Yesudas, Michael) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep28.055120.1578@ecst.csuchico.edu>, vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes...
>|> >In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>
>	The difference, of course, being that the widowmurder
>	was an effect of a crual tradition and law in India 
>	and the	aleged rape being a criminal offence comitted
>	by a perverted indevidual.
>	One could ponder wether the present problem with bride-
                                                         ^^^^^^
>	prises is related in any way?
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I could not understand you perfectly here.  The point I am trying
to make here is that the British did not stop widow burning in
India, great Indian leaders did that.  And also widow burning was
not as widespread as believed by most people it was performed by
a few perverted individuals (like you say).
>
>	It is sad to see that many people who advocates national
>	pride in nations that has been under inforced rule by
>	a western nation tend to attack ideas correctly or incorrectly
>	associated with the western form of government like
>	democracy. A brief look at the problems in Africa would
>	show clearly the problems this attitude cases.
>
>	In my country we have an ideom for that. That is:
>	To throw out the cild with its bathing water.
>
>	Exaggerating strong anti western attitudes is a 
>	favourite escuse for tyrants.
>
Obviously the Western form of democracy is a better system than
the others available and India is implementing this system,
but the fact remains that no former Western powers ever used their 
systems to benifit their former colonies (as the orginal poster
seems to claim).  But on the contrary all the colonies were
ruthlessly exploited.

Manoj
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:23:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.195542.27175@cs.wayne.edu> uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar) writes:
>
>Did you know all the soldiers in british uniforms were indians.
>Only the officers were actual whites.  (Not even hybrids-angloindians)...
>The only time indians saw actual british foot soldiers were
>near the WW II time....
>

Oh, I didn't think that the Indian-born "Rudi-Baba" Kipling would play
so fast and loose with the facts about the racial composition of the troops
in "Soldiers Three".  Or are you more inclusive in your use of "Indian" than
even the most liberal interpretation one normally sees?  



--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magician				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu)
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture/ British Misuse Of Sati.
Organization: California State University, Chico
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 05:51:20 GMT

In article <Bv9MHt.AIM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> ghayalm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>>	An early example of generally exploitative colonialism doing
>>good might be the British suppression of {\it sati} in 1829.  {\it
>>Sati} is the Hindu custom of a widow throwing herself on her husband's
>>funeral pyre.  Its suppression was triggered by Indian widows fleeing
>>to the British to avoid the enforced suicide.  This illustrates that
>>the British already had a reputation in India as people to whom one
>>could flee to avoid some kinds of injustice.  Before suppressing {\it
>>sati} the British argued among themselves about whether the evil of
>>the custom justified interfering with Indian religion.
>>
>Sati was basically eliminated by Indian leaders like Mahtma Gandhi
>the British did not want to interfere as they thought hindus would
>object thus rock the British rule in India. 
>The British had no reputation for justice in India, in fact they
>were known to take over Indian kingdoms unfairly and prevent
>Indian industries from functioning, that's why most Indians
>fought for freedom passionately during the British rule.

The British in reality were not even saviours of the Indian widows.  There 
are many examples of the British soldiers having raped widows after having
so-calledly rescuing them from the funeral pyres of their dead husbands.

>
>>
>>	The multiculturalism idea, that all cultural traditions are
>>equally valuable is today being overcome at great cost in the former
>>colonial countries.  Arbitrarily trying to invent alternatives to
>>democracy and capitalism are just as unlikely to succeed as trying to
>>invent alternatives to the airplane.

Democracy and capitalism are not necessarily the best systems to have been
implemented in this world.  It is the implementation of the system that is
important, and not the type of system. Even a most well meaning democratic
system can be misused, particulalrly in countries where the people are not
keen to participate in the electoral process,  or do not have any interest
whatsoever in the leaders and the policies that they decide that guide the
the country.


Regards,
Vivek.

-- 
vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
Systems Engineering Laboratory, Department Of Computer Science, 
School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
California State University, Chico, California.
From: pmclaugh@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 4 Oct 92 23:43:23 GMT
Followup-To: soc.history

In article <81048@ut-emx.uucp>, joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang) writes:
> In article <1992Sep29.030620.11614@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:
> |>II) The development of Capitalism in the West is unique.  We somehow take
> |>for granted that large-scale trade must have always existed.  Yet, large-scale
> |>trade requires a number of innovations that occurred only in the West.
> |>These include the development of banking, including money-lending for
> |>speculation; the concept of joint ownership (originally for mills and
> |>dams in the middle ages, later applied to ships); the development of
> |>double-entry bookkeeping and other accounting techniques; the development
> |>of insurance.
> 
> All of these things existed during the Ming dynasty in China (e.g.
> 1500), they most certainly are not unique to the West.

Yes, they did exist in Ming China, but several of these things existed
in 1300's Italy, particularly in Tuscany and Genoa. Besides, the Chinese
form of insurance was closer to what Al Capone would call insurance:
protection rackets run by avaricious bureaucrtic officials.

Another point: all these inventions may have been common to both
China and Europe, but remember that China had a monolithic government
with a highly centralized administration that could tax the life out of
mercantile adventures. These innovations were developed in Europe in 
places without strong governments to overtax profits, and therefore
commercial ventures were more enthusiastically undertaken.

All flames/lynchings may be addressed to:
crdunlea@rodan.syr.edu  (Chris Dunlea, Syracuse University)

The above does not reflect the opinion of the account holder, a nice 
decent person who happens to be my fiance.
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:38:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Oct2.200437.194@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson) writes:
> At least two new "peoples" have formed in historic times.  The
> Metis of Canada are Cree and French and the Lumbees of N. Carolina
> are Cherokee, White and Black.  The latter group formed when some
> Cherokee and white abolitionists assisted runaway slaves and
> intermarried with them.  Other Cherokees were slave-owners.  Today,
> the Lumbees remain a powerful force for racial integration in
> Robeson County, N. C., and have prevented the KKK from taking root
> there.
> -- 
> Krista Anderson, att!ihlpf!krista

In the process of researching my upcoming book, I ran into the
Indian efforts against the KKK in Robeson County.  A planned
Klan rally in Robeson County, N.C., involved a Klansman named
James Cole, who planned an inflammatory rally in January of 1958.  
But something unexpected happened -- he found that he needed 
police protection:

              What is  additionally interesting  about the riot that led

            to Cole's arrest, is the reaction of the Indian community to

            Cole's efforts.  Robeson County Sheriff Malcom G. McLeod had

            approached Cole  before the  riot, and asked him to call off

            the rally;  Cole had insisted, "I am due some protection for

            a lawful  assembly."  McLeod had argued that it was hardly a

            lawful assembly,  and warned  Cole, "I  believe if I had one

            hundred and  fifty men,  I couldn't  keep the Indians of

            Robeson County from coming in on that field."

              According to  McLeod, there  were approximately 200 people

            at the  rally; the  people at  the rally were outnumbered by

            armed Indians  who had gathered across the road.  In the

            ensuing riot:
              
              Several hundred  shots were  fired, and  two people,  a
              news reporter  and a  soldier bystander,  were slightly
              injured by gunshot.  The crowd was estimated to consist
              of from a few hundred to a thousand people.68
            68 State v. Cole, 249 N.C. 733, 107 S.E.2d 732, 737 (1959)
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Subject: Re: What was the cause of the 1930s depression?
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:50:36 GMT

> Some "Guru" on CNBC today was talking about reflation of today's economy, he 
> seems to think we are in a deflationary economic period.  He suggested that 
> it would take a long time to reflate the U.S. economy and the he based his 
> conclusion on the current nominal growth in the U.S. money supply as 
> indicate by the M-2 money supply measurement.  He says it will take a long 
> time because the Fed cannot get the money supply to grow at the current 
> prescribed goals.  In my opinion he might be right, and the deflation of 
> housing prices in California might be a leading indicator of further 
> deflation on national basis.  Added to this can be the attempt to reduce 
> the federal budget deficit via spending cuts and possibly tax increases.

Guru == Moneterist in this case.  The U.S. economy is having trouble
reflating for a couple of other reasons.  

1) Because of new laws resulting from the S&L crisis and various bank
failures, banks are very leery about loaning to business.  Bank
examiners scrutinize them much closer now.  In fact, a recent WSJ
article indicated that Banks invest more of their money in U.S.
government bonds then in private business.  This is unhealthy for our
economy.  Banks are being too cautious than in the past.

2) Normally at the end of a recessionary cycle, retail businesses
start to build up their inventories in anticipation of more consumer
spending.  This causes factory output to go up, and that provides
stimulus to the economy.  Because of computer technology, businesses
don't have to make buying decisions too far in advance anymore.  For
some time, the Japanese have been experts at keeping their inventory
down, resulting in less storage costs, and more cash flow.  U.S.
businesses, who after all are competing with the Japanese, have
adopted some of their methods.  So this particular kind of stimulus
has been taken away from us.

Of course, there are other factors involved as well.  I don't know
them all.  My point is, focusing on the money supply as the way to
control the economy is a mistake, just as it would be a mistake to
ignore the money supply as a factor. === Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: sumner@math.scarolina.edu (David Sumner)
Subject: Historical Documents Archives
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date:  2 Oct 92 17:11:38 GMT


Does anyone know of a place where I could use anonymous
ftp to obtain copies of particularly well-known 
documents such as the Declaration of Independence?
Any Information would be appreciated. 
 
Thanks, 
David
 
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.celtic,sci.archaeology
From: niall@nmsu.edu (Niall Graham)
Subject: Re: ice age British Isles (was Re: pre-Kelt Great Britain)
Organization: Computing Research Lab
	<1992Sep30.084037.9447@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
	<1992Sep30.154823.694@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:38:49 GMT


>This is slightly off the subject of pre Keltic Ireland, but I was
>wondering if the Ireland and the other British Isles (if the nomanclature
>is incorrect here, excuse me) were islands during the last ice age
>or were they connected to the Eurpoean mainland?

Yes.  There were land-bridges. The earliest settlements in Ireland
were in the North-East as there was at least a tidal land bridge
joining Ireland to Scotland. It is thought that hunters followed herds
of deer across.  The first visitors just left stone axeheads and flint
arrow heads behind them.  The second group left an abundance of stone
containers behind them, so are sometimes called the beaker people. The
country was at that time covered by impenetrable deciduous forest and
bog, so these populations didn't stray too far from the North-East
before the arrival of the dominant stone age culture which settled a
greater protion of the country, building the passage graves at
Newgrange etc.  Maybe a better read reader can fill in some of the
other details.  For example, I haven't mentioned the Bronze Age
settlers, who left an abundance of beautiful artifacts behind them.


--

Niall Graham          "Punctuality is the thief of time"
Los Alamos                                   Oscar Wilde
               
                                                        
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.iranian
From: traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:18:21 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Perhaps the greatest asset of Western culture is not any specific facet 
mentioned so far but the fact that by its very nature it is open to change
and outside influences from any source as long as it is seen as desirable,
without regard to the nature of the source.  The Renaissance received a
large fillip from the translation of Arabic commentaries on Aristotle, 
Plato, etc from Arabic to Latin by monks that followed the Reconquista; 
one beneficial aspect of the Crusades was that it stimulated contact
with the non-European world; the very _lack_ of Western superiority in 
culture, science, commerce, etc., during the Middle Ages stimulated
the West to both imitate other cultures where possible and innovate where
necessary.

					-Mike Traynor

-- 
NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     Only Amiga makes ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    it possible  \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\                 \XX/
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Bach, Beethoven & Bedlam - Nazi Schizophrenia
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Sep24.143353.19272@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> <12512@optilink.UUCP>
Date: 28 Sep 92 14:57:13

My equally vague recollection is that the police and the arrested were
both stooges.  The subjects of the experiment were the spectators.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Who lived in Great Britain before the Kelts?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:32:16 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <16670@pitt.UUCP>, geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks) writes:
> In article <MJD.92Sep28164444@saul.cis.upenn.edu> mjd@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Mark-Jason Dominus) writes:
>>
>>    It seems that the Kelts migrated into Great Britain from the
>>Continent between 500-100 BC.  Was there an aboriginal people there
>>before the Kelts?  If so, what happened?  Were they exterminated?
> 
> Yes, there certainly were people there prior to the Celts.  I'm
> not sure whether they were absorbed or exterminated.  They built
> Stonehenge, I believe.
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
> geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just wondering--who inhabited Skara Brae?

					-Mike Traynor

NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     w/MMR 7 Meg DRAM ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    190 Meg HD   \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\   14.4Kbps modem\XX/
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:46:16 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <BvI1xw.7Js@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca>  
jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> In article <12570@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton  
Cramer) writes:
> >In article <19764@ector.cs.purdue.edu>, cutchin@cs.purdue.edu  
(Steve Cutchin) writes:
> >#     While it is probably accurate to say that many new and  
beneficial
> >#     culture concepts were introduced by the conquering of India  
by
> >#     the British this in NO WAY mitigates that it was the western  
cultures
> >#     view of Indians as inferior, backward and heretical that  
allowed them
> >#     to justify in their minds the slaughter of millions of  
indians in
> >#     their conquest of India.  Mr McCarthy's EXTREMELY selective  
view of
> >
> >MILLIONS of Indians?  Even over the two centuries of British  
colonialism,
> >that comes to at least 5000 Indians a year.  There was a rather
> >famous massacre of unarmed and peaceful Indians around 1919 or  
1920 
> >that played a major part in the loss of British confidence, and  
the
> >strengthening of the Indian nationalist movement.  Several hundred 
> >people were killed in that massacre.  Yet it stands out as one of 
> >the great atrocities.  Why am I skeptical of "millions of  
Indians?"
> >
> >Could someone provide some more data?
> 
> 	All  it really takes to  kill a few million colonials is  
> mind-bogglingly  stupid  imposed agricultural policy. Ireland's
> potato famine comes to  mind as  an obvious example of the  
> English managing to starve multitudes in the midst of plenty,
> and I have  dim memories of something similar in 1940s India.
> 

The problem in this part of the discussion seems to be a semantic
one.  Usually, when we're talking about people who die
due to stupid policies, mismagement, etc, we uses phrases like
"xxx resulted in the death" or even "the xxx caused the death of ".
The original poster used the word "slaughter," which we generally
use for more active actions, and ones whose INTENT was
to kill or brutalize people.  British policy no doubt caused deaths 
in Ireland via the potato famine but the INTENT of these 
stupid agricultural policies was not to kill people.  [Please
note, by the way, that I'm not trying to minimize such
deaths. I'm just saying the communication is facilitated by
precise use of the language.]

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: jwp@panix.com (JongWoo Park)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Identify this series, please.
Date: 4 Oct 92 02:48:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC



Please identify this show.  Here are some hints.
1) It's a documentary series about WWII.
2) Each episodes ends with a shot of grave yard with many white
   crosses.
3) I am not sure, but I think it was made by BBC.
4) I saw this in mid-70s in Korean.  The Korean title translated to
    English is "The Tumultuous Century".

If anyone can identify this series, I will appreciate greatly.
Thank you.
-----
Jongwoo "Ain't it fun to be crazy?" Park     jwp@panix.com
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: World Culture and Western Culture
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:24:51 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <CB.92Sep29113443@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk  
(Chris Brewster) writes:
> I'd like to believe that the Spanish Conquest was the victory of
> humanitarian ethical ideals over despotism and human sacrifice, but  
it
> doesn't wash.  
> 
> First, as soon as the Spaniards appeared, the inhabitants of the  
Aztec
> capital were immediately decimated by a plague.  This (usually
> unintentional) germ warfare was always critical to the colonists'
> military success.
> 
> Second, the Aztecs, like most indigenous peoples in the Americas,  
were
> initially awed by the visitors and considered them gods.  They
> accordingly weakened their position in ways that they wouldn't have  
done
> if they had understood Spanish intentions.  So it was partly a  
victory
> of European realism over native superstition, but I see no moral
> difference.
> 

Actually, McNeely (I think that was his name) tied these two
points together rather well in Plagues and Peoples.  The Spanish
came in and told the Indians that the Spanish God was more
powerful than the native God(s).  The natives saw their own
people dying of plague while the Spanish survived. This led them
to conclude that the Spanish were correct: the Spanish God was
more powerful.  Thus, the natives both capitulated more easily
(their morale was seriously hurt by the belief that their
God was weak) and a number of them converted to Catholocism.
(Note that this had nothing to do with any moral superiority of
the Spanish, as the first poster claimed.)

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Xref: sparky soc.history:8706 soc.culture.indian:32679 soc.culture.china:26661 soc.culture.pakistan:15369 soc.culture.sri-lanka:1106 soc.culture.iranian:8481
From: peram@cs.tamu.edu (Suresh B Peram)
Subject: Re : world culture example
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:32:13 GMT

Mr. McCarthy writes in his e-mail (reproduced with permission):
> 
> If the story could have been written anywhere, then it is evidence for
> a world culture.  Was it Indian?
> 

It certainly has a very Indian flavor.  World
Culture has more obvious examples - the institution
of marriage (with all its requirements), the family
structure, belief in God, quest for knowledge and
advancement of science, appreciation of sports and
recognition of a difficult achievement.

Suresh
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.indian