HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:37:39 CST
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From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Trinity...

Hi there!!!
I'm new to this list and it is very encouraging to know that there are
a lot of Christians out there in every day life.  I do not know what
you have been discussing, so correct me if I ask the wrong question.
Is not the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost one and the same?

Because I believe that Jesus went to the cross because we had no other
way of getting back to God.  We had turned away from him with all the
sins so God sent his son so that we could get back to him.  I believe that
our Father loved us just that much!!!!!

Janie
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:05:35 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Free Will and Predestination

Dear Mike "A Million more in '54"
(old Southern Baptist line, sorry)

Mike ;
You beg the question when you assume that the will of man is a "sovereign"
item.  Could you tell me just how, authoritatively, that you know for sure
that your will is sovereign?"

Do you assume that it is free of extraneous influences?  Can you prove that
it is free of extrinsic forces, if indeed that is what you mean by
'Sovereign'?



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:54:57 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      New World Order?

Does anyone out there know what the 'New World Order' stands for or what
it is all about?

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:52:11 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?

Excerpts from christia: 12-Nov-92 Re: Whose will is dominant? Tom
Brewer@LSUVM.BITNET (1812)

> Yo Eric:

> > Ummm, sure, of course I agree with you, but this has nothing to do with
> > the topic at hand. The question is, is man totally unable to realize,
> > with the grace of God, that he needs to turn to God, that he is helpless
> > without him, that he is powerless to accomplish any good, and that he
> > must accept the sacrifice of Christ?

> Ummm, no, I don't think so. The question is, is man totally unable to
> BELIEVE that he needs to turn to God, that he is helpless without Him,
> that he is powerless to accomplish any good, and that he must BELIEVE in
> the sacrifice of Christ?

> Answer: Yes. Without the Free and Sovereign Grace of God, man is unable to
>         believe. Once again, see John 6 and 10. Man does not become a sheep
>         because he believes; man believes because he is first a sheep. If he
>         is not first a sheep given to Christ by the Father, he cannot and
>         will not believe.

I say you're wrong.  I say this position is contrary to Scripture.  I
see no proof in Scripture that belief follows regeneration.  Yes, man
requires the free and sovereign grace of God in order to believe, but he
does not need to be regenerated by that grace in order to be enabled to
believe.  I furthermore deny that the Holy Spirit is irresistible.  "Do
not quench the Holy Spirit."  "Do not take your Holy Spirit from me."
That "free and sovereign grace of God" may in fact be rejected and
resisted.

Speaking of definitions of regeneration, this is how I am understanding
regeneration:

- The point at which we die in Christ and rise with the new,
supernatural life in Christ;
- The point we receive the first-fruits or down-payment of the Holy
Spirit on our salvation;
- The point at which we are reborn;
- The point at which we are "marked" as belonging to God.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:30:25 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: CHRIST AS A ROLE MODEL.
              at Nov 10, 92 2:03 pm

Jesus christ is the perfect example of what a MATURE christian is.
Hebrews exalts us to move onwards in maturity, and how do we know what
Maturity is??? We know Maturity by watchingour elders.

Paul told the people to immitate him because Jesus had gone to heaven, perhaps
they did not have any written account of Christ to follow?
We can immitate Paul and immitate Christ because Paul is immitating Christ..

A = B and A=C therefore B=C (take the equals non literally)..

Jesus is the most mature example of a christian or one who is christlike
that we have.. There fore he IS our best role model.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:13:45 EST
From:         Cindy <CHAMI01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reply-Prayer Request-Cindy

Shelby,

Thank you for your prayers.  Just received word from my father that Mom is doin
g fine and that Dr. Offutt will be unable to tell if the surgery has worked for
 6 weeks.  She will be going back to the doctor in two weeks to see if it has s
tarted to heel.  Thanks again and God Bless You.

Cindy
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:20:52 EST
From:         "(dave talaga x2752)" <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREE WILL?

Jesse,

I saw Tom's post.  I like it.  I had a talk with the pastor of the church I am
 going to ... brought up the idea of predestination and free will.  Although he
 is a free will kind-a guy, he was very receptive to some cursor arguments and
 examples I put forth.  His big thing is not so much "differences", but being
 able to leverage them.

Oh well, at least there is room to argue.

Thanks for sending the stuff.  I am still on Christia, just limiting my time to
 an hour a day.

AS for Eric, this guy is not a proponent of free will, he DEMANDS it.  How can
 anyone, who understands the gospel, hold such a view that God demands
 something.

Dave
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:22:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Churches in Germany?

Hi Craig,

I tried to send this to "johnson@ELEC.UQ.OZ.AU",
but this node is unknown to our system. Could you give me another
address to contact you off-list?

You wrote:

>       A Christian friend of mine is going over to Germany
> during the summer vacation (that's winter for you northern
> hemisphere-ites), and it would be good to know the church
> situation over there, so that he can assemble with the saints
> of a Lord's day.  Not knowing any specifics, can anyone help
> in terms of denominations (or non-denominations :-)) that
> tend to be evangelical and faithful churches (preferably
> reformed) that he might attend?

There are big local differences. Generally there are the two big
churches that can be found nearly everywhere (Roman Catholic and
Protestant), but as I would not classify most of them as "evangelical
and faithful" I would not recommend them - although there are some good
pastors.

The next biggest groups are the Baptists and the Methodists. The
qualioty of these churches depend mainly on the pastor and there are
really big differences. But in general they are worth a try.

I am not so firm as for the reformed side, but if you could be more
specific about the area they will go to I might get some more
information.

BTW: in Germany "evangelical" is often contrasted to "charismatic". If
you don't mean it that way I can supply some extra information on this
side, too.

HTH
Wolfgang <><
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:14:23 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Jane

Greetings Jane,

First of all, thank you for your  prayers, we are blessed to have so many
prayer warriors  on Christia.  Only the  Lord knows  how many  people are
praying, because we pass  the requests on to others not  on the list. God
is truly awesome.

Dear Heavenly Father - Abba Father,

We lift  up to you  now Lord Peg  and Bill Owens. We  ask you to  let Peg
experience a  speedy recovery  from her  surgery and  that she  receive a
complete  healing. Please  give Bill  strength  and comfort  him and  let
him know  that by  him just  being there  for Peg,  will minister  to her
in many  ways. Father bless  this family with  your love, joy,  and peace
and let  them grow closer as  they go through this  trying time together.
In Jesus  Name we  touch and agree  that you will  give them  the desires
of  their heart  as they  line  up with  the  Word. Father  we thank  You
and  praise  You for  what  you  are doing  right  now  for this  family.
In Jesus Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:34:09 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Blood of Christ

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: Blood of Christ Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (206)

> Eric ;

> You toying with semantics. The O.T. used covering of sins as the
> sacrificial term. We can say  :  Expunged  Expiated Eradicated
> Exterminated Extricated

> Any more terms, hmmm???

As long as it is confessed that the sins remain no more and are actually
removed, and no longer exist, not like a bad test paper which has a good
one stapled over it, but like a bad test paper which has been corrected
and its mistakes erased and Expunged, Expiated, Eradicated,
Exterminated, and Extricated.

"For as far as the eastern sky is from the west, I have removed your
trangressions from you."

Pretty big staple.

Eric
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From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: KJV Bible on a server to download
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:14:47 GMT
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Julie,

You can download OnLine Bible 6.0 from WUARCHIVE.WUSTL.EDU directory
/doc/bible

I contains the KJV version  and some more and many features.

^
It    (sorry, I don't have and editor).

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:12:00 EST
From:         MSIMMON1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: more good news

As a military brat fresh outta Germany, let me just say that I have never h
heard of all these drug, sex, CIA stories - maybe in the middle east and
asia, but in Germany and in Belgium the commanders knew how to control their
troops, the troops stayed in line, the military chaplains were/are excellent,
and the chapel programs were generously supported on-base and off.  On behalf
of my humble history in Europe, I must make it clear that this situation in
Germany was/is far different from Asia and those other places.  MCS-IC
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Update on my prayer request
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:24:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

First of all, I wanted to thank you all for your prayers and kind words of
encouragement.  They've been extremely helpful.

The foot is doing a little better; it's not broken after all, it's just
badly inflamed (one joint in the ball of the foot).  I've had a steroid
shot in it and am also on some yucky anti-inflammatories that seem to be
helping.  I'll see the doctor on Tuesday and will probably have to have
another shot, since the swelling hasn't gone away.  I would really like to
be able to walk again.

The eating has been wonderful.  It's been about one and a half weeks, and
I can really feel God's power in that area of my life.  He's really
helping me.  I have lost about six pounds, and am very happy about that,
but plan not to weigh myself much anymore.  

I've seen God "break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron" in
other areas of my life, and now I believe He's doing it again in this one.

Thanks you for your prayers; I'd appreciate if you didn't stop!  


-- 
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time.     -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:04:07 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Brenda

Greetings Brenda,

Congratulations on  your appointment  as Director  of the  women's group.
In Prov.  3:5-6 the  Word says "Trust  in the Lord  with all  thine heart
and  lean not  unto  thine own  understanding. In  all  thy ways  acknow-
ledge Him  and He  will direct your  paths." The Love  Chapter in  I Cor.
13 will  bring you  through any  and all  obstacles. God  has a  plan for
this  group of  women. Put  Him first  in everything  and let  Him be  at
the helm of your group.

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you for  giving Brenda this opportunity to lead  the women's group.
Lord you said  that in our weakness  you are strong. We  thank you Father
for the task that is set forth  and ask for Your wisdom and understanding
to be given  Brenda, and that she  will only do those  things that please
you. Father  please use her  to minister your love  to all she  meets and
Lord use  this group  to help other  women who are  in turmoil,  who need
salvation, deliverance,  or just  somewhere to  find direction  for their
lives. Use  them as an outreach  to their community and  not just another
social  group. Father  please bless  the group's  efforts and  also bless
Kathy  the former  director in  whatever she  undertakes. Lord  we praise
you and  thank you and  give you  all the glory.  In Jesus Name  we pray.
Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:52:27 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Gospel
              13 Nov 1992 16:21:20 GMT from <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>

Gareth ;

Opinions are NEVER authoritative ... so what's your gripe?
I'll be up front ... will ye?


Jesse
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:17:52 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 9-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (1063)

> Dear Lubosh ;

> Even if free will could be existent, would it necessarily be WORTHY to
> be an offering to God?

> Further, How do you know for sure that our wills (and yes we do have
> them) are necessarily "Free"?

Lubosh knows because this is the faith we received from the Apostles.
Perhaps if you could conclusively demonstrate that the Church at some
point _did_ believe in total depravity, that would be helpful.
Unfortunately, the theology you propose was condemned early in the
history of the church as heretical.

> How are our wills free in light of Paul's words from Romans 3 that say
> that "...NO one SEEKS after God" and elsewhere where he says that the
> "...mind of sinful does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot"  and
> elsewhere when Jesus, himself, states that "...all who sin are slaves to
> sin"?

No one doubts that our wills are weakened (Council of Orange) by the
Fall, and that we require the Spirit's prompting to do any good.

But you still haven't answered the question: What Scripture is it that
proves that only when a man is regenerated that he can turn to God?  Can
God not draw a man to Himself without regenerating him first?  Is it not
written, "He who believes and is baptized is saved," and not, "He who is
saved believes and is baptized"?  Is it not written, "He who perseveres
in doing good will be saved," not "He who will be saved perseveres in
doing good"?

> Indeed the matter is worsened when we see Christ saying that "...no one
> can come to me unless my Father enables him" (John 6:65). A bit of
> INABILITY wouldn't you say?

Yes, but again this inability does not imply that the Father FORCES them
to the Son, nor does it imply that the person enabled is regenerated
before they believe.

> As far as being ABLE to come to Christ with our wills, how do we deal
> with Christ's words in John 6 when He says that "...all that the Father
> GIVES to me WILL come to me..."It seems that COMING to Christ,
> will-wise, is determined upon being given to Christ by the Father.

Since your interpretation of this verse contradicts other Scriptures it
must be wrong.  ;-) I still have no viable interpretation for this
passage, but if given the creativity of Predestinarians in interpreting
Scripture, someday I'll come up with one! ;-) ;-)

Eric
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: A Vote For Morality
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:05:22 GMT

MKLINE@VDH.BITNET (Michael A. Kline) writes:

God, Mr. Kline, you really are a scumbag. I apologise for the strong
language to everyone but you. Strong language is often overused these days,
which has meant it has lost its impact to a certain extent, but I think in
your case you deserve it.

If you maybe exercised tha little brain of yours that God, in his infinite
humour, decided to bestow on you, you might realise that the reason that
so many homosexuals commit suicide is that throughout their whole life
people like you persecute and mock them. Most people can only stand so much.

And please don't give me any "hate the sin, love the sinner" lines, as the
whole tone of your posting was one of smugness and glee that gays are getting
what they deserve.

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive  P a u l   M o l o n e y    "I'm pretty witty and you're itty bitty    pe
james  Trinity College, Dublin     And isn't it a pity the city can't see?   vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:03:16 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 11:40:16 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

The dead man necessarily has no Free will.
He wills nothing.  He is DEAD.
Lazarus could not WILL to come forth from the dead until Christ ENABLED
him to do so, EXTRINSICALLY.

So Eric, How do you KNOW we have a Free will and could you tell me what
the BIBLE states a free will to be, by definition?


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:23:51 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (436)

> Eric ;

> Now, lets quit this small stuff and get down to turkey. Simply put,
> Calvin is not authoritative ... but neither is Augustine. Only the
> objective Scriptures are authoritative.   AMEN. By the way, your remarks
> on free will are "Groundless traditions of men and have no basis in
> Scriptures" ... unless you wish to recant now. But please no
> equivocating ... er, I believe the politically correct term now is no
> "Waffling."

> Jesse

Hey, YOU'RE the one who believes in Sola Scriptura . . . my remarks are
based (I hope) on Apostolic Tradition as discerned through the canons of
ecumenical councils (plus a little of my own understanding and
explanation).  They _are_ consonant with Scripture, so I wish to point
out that the matter is not cut-and-dried Calvinist.

Eric
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