HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: mideast bib
Date: 22 Jan 1993 10:29:32 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: talk
Reply-To: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

[Sigh, new newsreader.. Wayne got approximately this in email as well..]

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23050@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
|> To: Jonas Flygare

|>  JF> For being called a 'mideast' bibliography, I'd say you seem
|>  JF> to like one theme, and one theme only..

|> Please name any of the books on the list you object to, and
|> present us with an itemized list of errors of facts or
|> interpretation which you would like to discuss. I will be happy
|> to defend any of the books on the list.

It's not that I object to the books, as to the rather one-eyed selection
you have. Are you able to grasp this?

|> Most of the books are about Israel. Since you are not living in
|> the U.S., you might not realize that Israel consumes a huge share
|> of our foreign aid, and receives a vastly disproportionate share
|> of attention in our elite media, like The New York Times.

Yes, that _is_ the problem. Almost every book is about Israel, and not
about the neighbouring countries as well. Also, can you give me statistics 
about the NYT, to compare with the copies I can get here in Sweden?
Is the NYT representative for the 'elite media' or is it just another
convenient example?

|> While you are at it, please give us your list of recommended
|> reading on the Mideast. I'll take a look at any book you'd like.
Well, since you insist on quoting jweish literary giants all the
time, why not look at the small fry, you might get an understanding
of the common Israeli that way? 'Road to Ramadan', 
'Our Man in Damascus' and any book by Mark Helprin. 
You might want to take a look at the books by the Egyptian Nobel laurate
(I have to admit that his name escapes me at the moment, and that I have
only read one of his books, but I liked it) and I know that there are
some exile syrians writing about life in Assads Syria.
There are quite a lot of books on Lebanon and Egypt, I haven't seen
many on Jordania, except those about archaeology. (Petra and other sites)
You might also want to contact a military agency to get copies of 
non-classified intelligence material (that is, if you can. Here in sweden 
we have a right to query government departments and agencies about non-
classified stuff) on the region. With some luck there might be an equivalent 
the newsletter sent out by the armed forces here. It lists all larger 
events during the month and a brief analysis of the material. All presented
with a marked world map to easily grasp where current hotspots are.

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: zionism in crisis
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:04:30 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Karen Lee Givon

After absorbing and thinking about many comments here and in
email, I have come to the following tentative conclusions:

Jews constitute an ethnic group in both the cultural and
biological sense. Converts play a minuscule role in Jewish life.
Judaism is a belief system which reinforces the ethnic character
of Jews, through its biological symbology and restrictions on
intermarriage.

Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists do not constitute ethnic
groups. Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are universalist belief
systems which direct themselves to the human race at large
without regard to ethnicity.

For instance, despite their ethnic and national differences,
Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, and German Catholics can find
a common ground in their religious symbols.

But how can Judaism provide a common ground between Israel and
the nations, between Jews and other major ethnic groups, when it
is centered so strongly on Israel and Jews alone?

If there are ethnic elements in Islam which I have overlooked,
please bring them to my attention. Islam does not strike me as
being primarily ethnocentric in nature.

In the bookstore the other day I took a glance at Joseph
Telushkin's Jewish Literacy. He comments on page 625: "It is
estimated that five to ten thousand non-Jews convert to Judaism
annually in the United States." Elsewhere he notes that most of
these conversions are the product of romantic attachments between
Jews and non-Jews, not strong ideological commitment.

If Judaism is a modern universalistic religion that transcends
ethnicity, this is clearly not a message that has gotten through
to the world, as judged by its eagerness to convert.

Combining ethnocentrism with religion with nationalism strikes me
as a volatile proposition. All three factors can be forces for
great divisiveness in the world, separately and most assuredly in
combination. Many of Israel's worsening problems are the product
of its ideological presuppositions, concepts which perhaps need
to be rationally examined more than emotionally defended in a
knee-jerk fashion.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Lilys: In the Presence of Nothing
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Date: 24 Jan 93 14:02:14 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23053@channel1> "wayne mcguire"
<wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

> .. Yeshayahu Leibowitz.. just won a major prize in Israel,
>btw, for his intellectual achievements. The Israeli cultural
>elite seems to agree with me that he is a great man, although the
>award enraged Shamir and Rabin...


FALSE!

As it becomes known today.
Shulamit Aloni asked several leftist figures to join the
prize-3-member-commity  in order to select her pre-selected prof.
Leibowitz as the person to get the prize.
Prof. Anita Shapira  aknown leftist figure refused geting the joc
under such a condition, so did Efrayim Evron ( a former Israeli
ambassador at the US) .
Shulamit Aloni the education minister and the leader of the fanatic
left refused denying she act in that way.
The members of that commity were : 2 Peace now mwmbers and one who run
hardly exist small leftist fraction.
Not just Rabin but all of the government ( but Merez members)
declaredtoday a strong objection to giving the prize to that
Leibowitz.
There was no pole run over "The Israeli cultural elite" and
there is no base to say they thing differentlt that the majority who
objects Leibowits declaration that:
  1. the majority of the Jews are Judeo-Nazis.
  2. Israel held the Arabs in concentration camps.
  3. Soldiers should uprise the Israeli government.
  4. persons should refused drafting to the army.
  5. we should kill the 1/4 milion sattlers.
  6. Israeli soldiers fighting the PLO and the Hamas murderers are
     just the same as the Hamas members.
  7. .....
  8. ....

Shalom   Gideon Ehrlich   we shall overcome    ERETZ YISRAEL
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Silverman)
Subject: Re: EXPELLED PALESTINIANS INCLUDE ACTIVISTS AND TEACHERS
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 05:03:56 GMT

Yeah.  And they also include murderers and terrorists.

Remember that these "teachers" and "activists" are teaching and
'activising' for murder of Jews.


--
msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu				GO CUBS!!!

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26406 talk.politics.soviet:10840 soc.culture.greek:12672 soc.culture.europe:11506 soc.culture.soviet:12515 soc.culture.turkish:15181 soc.rights.human:5026
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: US Cruise missile's accuracy
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:37:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.215729.24602@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> aref@Tehran.Stanford.EDU (Modda'iyeh har hAzer va Vakileh har ghAyeb) writes:
}In article <1993Jan20.202358.17482@linus.mitre.org> 
}m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}
}>"targetted"?  Is this a deliberate lie, or have you just forgotten the minor
}>detail that it wasn't going there until the locals RETARGETTED (i.e. shot it)
}>it from its *GUILTY* target to those *INNOCENT* civilians?
}
}OK, so let's change the "targetted" to "hit". 
Better.

}How do you know that the locals 
}retargetted (or shot) it such that the missile would change course?

The usual results from "shooting down" something (as Saddam claims occurred) is that
it is no longer flying i.e. its course is different i.e. changes from horizontal
to "down".  Are you claiming that BOTH the US reps and the Iraqi reps are lying?
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Boycotting American Cars
Keywords: Boycott, Cars
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:38:29 GMT
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711

In article <C1H6Lu.D9E@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> khater@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Issam Abu-Khater) writes:
>> This is not a new approach to register your protest. To this day, most 
>> Japanese don't buy American cars because they still remember Heroshima and
>> most Jews don't buy German cars because they still remember the Holocaust. 

	If a had a nickel for every Jew that I knew that drove a German
	car, I'd be a rich man.  As for the Japanese, they don't much
	of anything foreign from anywhere simply becasue it's foreign.


	Geoff

>> 
>>                   L E T  U S  N O T  F O R G E T  ! ! 
>> 
>>               D O  N O T  B U Y  A M E R I C A N  C A R S 
>> 
>> 
>
>..........................End Forwarded Messege.........................
>Issam.


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26313 rec.arts.books:26423 talk.politics.soviet:10749
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,rec.arts.books,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Nazi Armenians serving in the Wehrmacht and the SS (was Re: hanif).
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 18:35:15 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan24.201344.5028@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>Here is a difference to be noted: you may be supposed to write in English
>>in talk.politics or rec.arts, but not in s.c.turkish.

>True.  And from following the thread, it seems that it started in
>s.c.turkish.  But when something is crossposted it's usually done
>because it appeals to or is important for readers in the other group(s).
>In that eventuality, translations should be provided, IMHO.

More ridicule; I take it? If skill could be gained by watching, every 
ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminal/Nazi would become a butcher, "perlmanian". 
As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' 
that the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) 

        'leans toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: On Macedonia
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 20:57:20 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C1E2G9.GK5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>That's not the first thing the Greeks tried to claim that was not theirs. I am
>>referring to the fact that there is no such thing as Greek Philosophy. The 
>>Greeks stole it from the Ancient Egyptians.

> It's getting amuzing now!!!

Well, maybe so. Today those "tamtams" boast about being the descendants
of a great civilization, and the cradle of democracy. Howevers there
are serious doubts in history for both claims.

First of all, several historians and anthropologists have produced
substantial evidence with respect to any connection between 
present-day Greece and ancient Greece. The prominent German
historian Jacop P. Fallmerayer published a treatise in 1830
and made the assertion that during the Middle Ages slavik
tribes poured into Greece and annihilated the entire Greek
population. Truly, can anyone see any resemblance between 
that beacon of ignorance and "paliks", and the ancient Greeks
who created a civilization?

As for democracy, in its entire history Greece has never been
a democracy - except for the last 18 years. 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:05:59 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1993Jan22.1777.23086@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>.............................................    MY motive is a
>passionate concern for American interests in the Mideast and the
>world in general. ...

    Speaking of Mideast, the US has been at war with Iraq
    for the last two years now.  How does then your "passionate 
    concern for American interests in the Mideast" translates
    into diatribes against Israel but not Iraq; Zionism but not
    Ba'athism; Judaism but not Islam; the Jews but not the Arabs?

...
>What I see is a deep pool of irrationality and flagrant double
>standards on the part of many Zionists here. Their behavior is
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>alienating me
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    There must be hundreds, if not thousands, flavors of nationalism 
    around the world - how come it is Zionism and Zionists that seem to 
    alienate you the most?  Do you believe that Jewish nationalists 
    tend to be more irrational and employ more double-standards than 
    their non-Jewish counterparts?




-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26222 soc.culture.greek:12488 soc.history:10945
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Yousef Islam
Keywords: To Adam
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:25:30 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <Jan.17.19.40.51.1993.18149@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>
>><chuckle> Anisa, **EVERYONE** who enters Israel is suspected of being
>>a terrorist and subjected to the same thing. When I arrived in Israel,
>>with a Jewish appearance and name and travelling with a Jewish organi-
>>zation, I went through the same three-hour hold-and-search. It's routine.
>>For everyone, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Shinto, or Martian.
>
>That is news to me nora ... Have you seen and *experienced* what the
>others have went through at the Israeli borders ... I will find your
>post highly inaccurate unless you acknowledge that you had the same
>treatment as the following:

Well that's stupid of you... since I said that what I experienced was at
the Tel Aviv airport, not at the Jordanian border. So, however, was what
Yousef Islam experienced, and as far as he's said, it didn't include any-
thing like what you describe. I suspect that if I tried to enter through
Jordan (nonsense of course since, as a Jew, I wopuld never be allowed into
Jordan in the first place and so could never cross *anywhere* from there),
I would indeed be subject to the same thing. As it was, I was subject to
precisely the same treatment that Yousef Islam or any other person passing
through the particular airport in question was and is, whether Jewish, Mus-
lim, Christian, or what-have-you. If I passed through a border with a country
in a declared war with Israel, I'd expect more intensified security treat-
ment even than the airport uses, and I'd get it no matter who I was. Make
sense, please.

>A close friend of mine who was going through the jordanian-Israeli border
>told me that the border patrol asked him to take off his clothes and his
>*lower* underwear and the patrol examined his (I do not know how to say
>this nicely but let me try ...) his bottom !!!

I *know* this is routine regardless of who you are, at that border, as I've
heard a great deal about the controversy involved in getting women guards
so that men don't have to do such examinations on women, and the first
article I read on it was written by a British Christian woman who went
through the same procedure. It's pretty damned unpleasant, yes. So is
stashing explosives there. As long as there are people who try to enter the
country by that border while carrying explosives in intimate parts of their
anatomy, said parts are going to be searched, on everyone who enters by
that route. The only reason it hasn't come up wrt Jews is that Jews can't
get into Jordan in the first place so there are none coming over the border.

>--Marwan

	-Naomi
-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom, aleinu v'al kol Yisrael.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism / Center for Pol
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 22:42:26 GMT

Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:

>A certain Brendan asks me to apologise for defining Zionism as
>a form of racism and highlight specific aspects of Judaism as racism.

>Far from using these terms as smears, there is ample evidence
>to prove these assertions.

Ah.  An anti-semite who revels in his bigotry!
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26197 talk.politics.soviet:10688 soc.culture.greek:12477 soc.culture.europe:11381 soc.culture.turkish:14889
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism / Center for Pol
Originator: tpm@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:28:07 GMT

A certain Brendan asks me to apologise for defining Zionism as
a form of racism and highlight specific aspects of Judaism as racism.

Far from using these terms as smears, there is ample evidence
to prove these assertions. Even former chief of Israeli
Intelligence Harkabi brings many such examples. Israeli official
discrimination against non-Jews who have been born in the country, 
particularly those non-Jews who happened to flee the hostilities
 in 1948 (which many Jews also did) and cannot return, is I think
compelling enough to provde racial discrimination, at least as this
term is defined in international law. 

It is true that many Israelis don't give a damn for international law,
U.N. resolutions and agreements signed by Israel. This is however not
my position. I maintain that international law and Conventions signed by
the majority of UN members, reflect a good consensus and should be used
as a yardstick to assess a regime. The fact that many states violate
these conventions does not exonerate Israel.
zzz.
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: mideast bib
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:32:19 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Jonas Flygare

 JF> For being called a 'mideast' bibliography, I'd say you seem
 JF> to like one theme, and one theme only..

Please name any of the books on the list you object to, and
present us with an itemized list of errors of facts or
interpretation which you would like to discuss. I will be happy
to defend any of the books on the list.

Most of the books are about Israel. Since you are not living in
the U.S., you might not realize that Israel consumes a huge share
of our foreign aid, and receives a vastly disproportionate share
of attention in our elite media, like The New York Times.

While you are at it, please give us your list of recommended
reading on the Mideast. I'll take a look at any book you'd like.

Wayne
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  The dome of thought, the palace of the soul.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 22 Jan 1993 08:13:40 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1jo6abINNgsi@manuel.anu.edu.au, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>Yes, this was passed by a four-three majority.  At the same meeting,
>the Council unanimously suggested that Britain reconsider the proposals 
>made by the Council after the 1937 Peel Commission (which recommended 
>partition into independent Arab and Jewish states).  Those proposals
>were for cantonisation (I don't have details of this one) and for
>the partition into two separate mandates (one Arab and one Jewish)
>that would become independent in time. [C. Upthegrove, Empire by Mandate, 
>p161].  This illustrates my point that the Council did not regard 
>"a Jewish National Home in Palestine" to imply "a Jewish State in all 
>of Palestine".  Maybe you are not claiming it did.  Perhaps you should 
>state again what you are trying to establish by this thread; I've lost track.

Oops.  "Council" should read "Mandates Commission" in all three places.

Brendan.





Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast