From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 23:07:07 GMT

  Dear Friends;

  Well, I sat down and read Susan's response, and felt, all-in-all, pretty good
by the time I got to the end of it.

  Susan said a couple of things which seemed like points I should clarify, and
so I took keyboard in hand and started editing together the parts which I wanted
to talk about, and then spent some time talking about what I was trying to
say, or how I might not be interpreting some sentance, some phrase, in quite
the right way, and how this or that didn't seem quite right.

  By the time I was almost done, I'd worked up a little bit of a mad, and had
ruined the nice feeling I'd gotten from Susan's post.  Worse than that, I saw
that I'd put together a post which most certainly would have kept this going for
another week or more.  I don't think that would be very good for anyone, especially
since we seem to be in the "here I am repeating myself again" stage.  I, admittedly,
find myself deeply in the "that's not the point I was trying to make" rut.

  Thanks for all of your comments, Susan.  Please forgive me if I just kind of
drop the line-by-line responses and say that, in general, we seem to have
communicated.  There's a couple of things which you said which I still take
exception too, but they're not related to this thread and are kind of personal
so I'll mail you instead.

  To everyone else, it seems like we're near the end on this one.  I'd like to just
recap by saying that the point I'd like to leave with is this;

  Whenever someone tells me that my Paganism isn't a religion, I feel pretty hurt.
It sounds to me like not just an attack on what I call myself but also on everything
I hold as sacred.

  Having read the thread as far back as we keep copies of stuff here (not too far, 
sometimes on Monday, Saturday has already been zapped), I can see that some
people thought I saying that their religion doesn't exist, or exists only as I see it,
or that they shouldn't talk of it.  I've already said it, but I'll say it again -- Sorry,
everyone.  I was being very selfish and not paying much attention to anyone's
hurt feelings other than my own.  It was only my intent to defend myself, not
attack anyone else.

  Susan certainly hasn't said that my particular Paganism isn't a religion, she's
only said that she wouldn't call my religion Paganism, and that Paganism itself
isn't a religion.  Seems to me that Bill and some others feel the same way.

  I guess I'm ok with that, if you guys will please stop responding to my posts with
"paganism isn't a religion".  It does sound to me like you're being pretty intollerant
of what I call myself and how I worship when you continue to point out this
disagreement.

Susan said;
 >"The "paganism is/isn't a religion" argument is one that we have here
>quite often.  That in part is why the response to your remarks was as
>swift and as intense as it was."

  I see.  Yes, there do seem to be some battle lines drawn.  I'll try to be more
sensitive in the future.  In addition, I'll try to be less sensitive to people who
don't like me capitalizing words like Goddess, Pagan, and Paganism.

  The beginning of this thread was only my second or so post, so the intensity of the 
response was very alarming.

  In solidarity with all of the people who do feel as I do, excuse me whilst I define
my stance in the argument of; "Paganism ... Is it a religion?"

Susan said;
>"Um.  Okay, here we are back to the same semantic thing.  I agree with
>you that you're pagan; I just wouldn't call your *religion* paganism,
>even though it incorporates paganism into it.  To me that's like
>saying a Christian's religion is monotheism."

  What religion would you call me then?

  For me to not be able to call my religion Paganism would be like someone who
doesn't like being a Luthern anymore being told that they can't call themselves a
Christian.

  Anyway, for me the Christian is to monotheism is as Pagan is to ? argument
goes;

  Pagan is to Paganism as Christian is to Christianity
  Christian is to monotheism as Paganism is to polytheism
  Wiccan is to Paganism as Luthern is to Christianity
  Buddhism is to Paganism as Bodhisatva Tree is to a Mirror Reflecting Nothing

  DISCLAIMERS:
    Actually, the Paganism to polytheism is entirely variable.  There's lots of Pagans
  who are, essentially if not in acknowledgement, monotheists.  I've also run into
  lots of polytheistic Christians.
    The "Mirror Reflecting Nothing" is a funny joke, not a reference to Paganism.
  I am, of course, trying to make a pun on the fourth ascendant master, and have
  probably failed.  And now I'm explaining it.  Double failure (>whack<).

  I accept fully that this is exactly opposite of the views of many people who call
themselves P/pagan, and appreciate the people on this board who have pointed
that out to me.  I'm glad this has been taken care of so quickly without it dragging
on for eternity with my continual blundering on people's toes.

  There.  Now I've gotten to tell everyone how I feel, and what's been hurting
my feelings so much.  Hopefully this hasn't hit anyone's button or been interpreted
as telling anyone else what they can or can't call themselves.

  If it has, well, drink some tea and read a good book and then write me in the
morning and tell me how the crops are growing where you live.  We're recovering
nicely from the June frost, but the corn in lower areas is still kinda scraggly.

  I look forward to reading everyone's discussion of what they believe, hopefully
augmented with some personal experiences or examples of how you've implemented
your beliefs, and will endeavor to try to NOT get in the last word.

  Most of all, I'll try to not say anything which can be interpreted as a comment on
the correctness of what someone else says they believe.

  Blessed be,  Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan