HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rstump@itchy.geog.albany.edu (Roger Stump)
Subject: Re: drugs, ethics, health
Organization: Syracuse University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 21:50:02 GMT

In article <RSHAPIRO.92Dec31150213@kariba.bbn.com> rshapiro@bbn.com (Richard Shapiro) writes:
>
>   In any case, if I were forced to choose one or the
>   other, and I were concerned with my life expectancy, I would rather be
>   addicted to tobacco than to crack or heroin.
>
>Depends on whether you're speaking pragmatically, physiologically or
>morally.  Pragmatically, in a world in which heroin is an expensive
>product typically bought from armed gangsters, quite possibly cut with
>some foreign substance, and administered with an unclean needle, your
>life expectancy as a user is indeed likely to be short.  But these

Agreed, a principal danger of illegal drug use is that this activity takes
place beyond the protection of mainstream society -- but that makes
it no less dangerous.

>factors are all attributable to the legal status of heroin.  From a
>purely physiological point of view, cigarettes and alcohol are much
>more destructive than any of the popular illegal drugs. I think it's

I'm certainly not an expert on the physiological effects of legal or
illegal drugs, but is it really possible to make such a comparison?  How
do you compare dosages of different substances, for example?  The pattern
of use will also likely have a significant impact.  For example, I think
it would be rather difficult to overdose on tobacco, but much easier
on heroin -- so are we talking about long-term or short-term dangers?
Admittedly I'm out of my depth here, but am somewhat skeptical.

>pretty clear that drug use is generally considered to be morally
>wrong, while smoking and casual drinking are not.
>
>I find it interesting to note that Marcel felt it worth pointing out
>that one figure on the cover of This Is Our Music was on the nod (a
>morally evil practice, by the usual standards) but not worth
>mentioning that three of the four were holding cigarettes (a morally
>neutral practice, by the same standards)!

Or it could be that using heroin was not a common social practice at
the time, but smoking was.  Again, I'm not convinced that morality
comes into it as much as social convention (although the two are
obviously closely linked).

Despite the above comments, I'm somewhat sympathetic with Richard Shapiro's
larger point, that drug use among jazz musicians (or any other cultural
phenomenon, for that matter) can best be understood if it is examined
"objectively," without being filtered through a pre-conceived set of
moral standards or judgments (which may differ considerably from
those of the musicians in question).  At the same time, though, that
objectivity requires that the consequences of drug use be realistically 
taken into account -- and those consequences have often been destructive.
Such a conclusion is not based on moral grounds, but on the obvious misery
and the many lost opportunities that drugs have brought to users' lives.
-- 
Roger Stump  (rstump@itchy.geog.albany.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: jab@cs.rit.edu (John A Biles)
Subject: Re: TCB records of Booker Little, et al
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:28:27 GMT

Well, I went home last night, took Casey Stengel's advise, and "looked it up."
I seem to have four TCB albums, all of which came from the vaults of the
old Warwick label.  I even listened to all four.  Nice stuff.  One classic
quintet from the early 60's (Byrd/Adams) and some interesting pick-up
band charts.  The details:

TCB 1002: Donald Byrd - Takin' Care of Business with Herbie Hancock
     really Warwick 2041: Byrd/Pepper Adams Quintet - Out of This World
     with Byrd - Tpt., Adams - Bari Sax, Hancock - Pn., Laymon Jackson - Bass,
     Jimmy Cobb - Drums; recorded in 1961, got **** in downbeat, 8/31/61

TCB 1006: Jammin' with Herbie Hancock really same group and tunes as above,
     alternate takes with I'm an Old Cowhand the only tune not on TCB 1002.
     Names of tunes changed to make it look like a different album.
     Old Cowhand called Cat Call.

TCB 1003: Booker Little/Booker Ervin - Sounds of Inner City
     really Warwick 2033: Teddy Charles New Directions Quartet - Jazz in the
     Garden, with Charles - Vibes, Mal Waldron - Pn, Little - Tpt, Ervin - Tn,
     Addison Farmer - Bass, Eddie Shaughnessy - Drums, recorded 1961

TCB 1004: Byrd/Little - The Third World
     really Warwick 5003: The Soul of Jazz Percussion, a studio session by
     a merger of the above two groups plus Don Ellis and Marcus Belgrade - Tpt,
     Bill Evans - Pn, Curtis Fuller - Tbn, Paul Chambers - Bass,
     Armando Perazo, Philly Joe Jones, Willie Rodriguez, Earl Zinders - Perc.
     recorded 1960, got ****1/2 in downbeat 8/31/61  

For more Byrd/Adams with early Hancock, see Blue Note Byrd albums Cat Walk,
Royal Flush, Free Form, among others.  Hancock replaced Duke Pearson in Byrd's
group, and later Wayne Shorter replaced Adams.  Great stuff!

I guess my curiousity has been tweeked.  Anybody else have other TCB
records?
                              - Al Biles (jab@cs.rit.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: jtintor@bcars6ba.UUCP (John Tintor)
Subject: Re: B.B.King Box Set
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:22:41 GMT

I picked up the BB.King boxed set a couple of weeks ago and have
played it through about three times already. Since the few albums
I have are from later years I was totally amazed at his work
(especially vocally) from earlier years. The $Cnd70 I paid for
the 77 songs that span his entire career was well spent especially
for someone who isn't going to buy every single CD that comes out.
Buying this CD is probably like buying a Blue/Red Beatles CD (when it
comes out). You're given a taste from each period of his career
without buying other similar songs of the same period. The BB.King
fan will end up buying other CD's but will probably still buy the
boxed set to get earlier/unreleased stuff that may or may not end
up on CD.

As I don't have the set in front of me I'll try to give more detail
from memory...

There are four cd's segmented in time periods; 1949-1966, 1966-1969,
1969-197?, 197?-1992. The quality of the early stuff (even the ones
from 1949/50) is really great even more so considering it was recorded
for mom & pop record operations. The couple of songs lifted from 'Live
at the Regal' are clean as well.

As with all box sets there are things missing but that's personal taste.
For example, the editor selected a studio version of "how blue can you
get' instead of the recording from '...Cook County Jail' (by the way
I believe no tracks from CCJ were included). The studio version is
really bland without the incredible guitar solo intro. They also
took the studio version of 'Caledonia' instead of the one from
'BB.King in London' with all it's great instrument solos. Also, the
booklet makes reference to an amasing acoustic track 'Alexis Boogey'
which is one of my favourite BB.King tracks but is not included in the
box set. Lastly, for those of you who hate box set editors
remixing/concatenating tracks, this is performed on only one song and
is done fairly well.

The included booklet is pretty good too. It gives a history of his
career with references to certain tracks, albums, and record company
switches. There is also an interview with BB.King. The author and
musicians are given for each track.

While I'm in here I must say my favourite album is 'BB.King in London'.
I haven't seen it on cd yet but I'll keep looking.

    john



Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: mcgonig@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca (Gordon McGonigal)
Subject: Re: Jimmy Rowles
Organization: Dept. of Elect. & Comp. Engineering, U of Manitoba
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 08:54:26 GMT

smg+@cs.cmu.edu (Stephen Guattery) writes:
>haven't found anything else under his name in the local libraries or used
>record stores, so any information on sessions he's done with other people
>would be appreciated.  Thanks,

Look under Stan Getz for THE PEACOCKS (Columbia).  A delicious album.
Elvin Jones and Buster Williams help out on a few tracks too.
--
                                   * * *
Gord McGonigal                                  mcgonig@eeserv.ee.UManitoba.ca
Dept. of Electrical & Computer Engineering
University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, CANADA (R3T 2N2)       phone: (204) 474-6295
From: kumard@acsu.buffalo.edu (Deepak Kumar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: Blues: Albert King
Date: 4 Jan 93 04:57:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci

In article <4524@cvbnetPrime.COM> jsulliva@amstel.prime.com (Jeff Sullivan) writes:
>
>
>Is anyone else (lefty or righty) using this technique?
>Any recommendations for Albert King recordings (on CD)?
>
 Yes, check out Eddie "the chief" Clearwater.

 Deepak.


-- 
I'm not a teacher but I play one at school.
kumard@cs.buffalo.EDU                    Deepak Kumar, Department of Comp. Sc.
kumard%cs.buffalo.edu@ubvm.bitnet        226 Bell Hall, SUNY@Buffalo, NY 14260.
From: saul+@pitt.edu (Alan B Saul)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: On Drugs, Bebop and The Wire
Date: 31 Dec 92 12:48:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: blue.1253
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

The first examples Marcel mentioned in his original post were Serge Chaloff,
Booker Little, Paul Chambers, and Fats Navarro. I have a good bit of interest
in the lives of these wonderful musicians, and especially in Booker.
Could anyone point me to further information on him? This was actually
the first time I heard mention of his using, and I am pretty surprised.
My thanks also to Al Biles and Ignatios Alexander for their recent posts
about some of Booker's recordings, which were great sources of new info.

Much appreciated,
Alan Saul
saul@unixd.cis.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote,alt.config
From: gwl@specialist.genrad.com (Glenn W. Lea)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: Request for comments; selections from Cadence
Date: 22 Dec 1992 08:31:41 -0500
Organization: GenRad, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: specialist.genrad.com

On Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:36:46 GMT,
hellers@cs.wisc.edu (Joe Hellerstein) said:

Joe> Finished pass #3 through Cadence (this time with a pen.) 

Isn't that fun?  I love doing that.  And about a third of the time,
I actually ORDER them! :)

Joe> Jay Clayton w. J. Ira Bloom/Karush/Swartz  "All Out"  Anima 1J35
Joe> I confess to recognizing only Jane Ira Bloom's name here, and I've
Joe> never seen this.

Clayton is a vocalist.  I heard some of this on the radio awhile back
and was impressed and a bit surprised at its "outsideness".

Joe> Cecil Taylor "Jumpin' Punkins" w/Rudd,Lacy,Shepp,etc. '61  Candid 9013

Should be readily available at stores.  Punkins is a great cut (by
Mercer Ellington).  This is also available as part of Mosaic's complete
CT/Neidliner set.

Joe> Betty Carter & Ray Charles "Together"  (ABC) Dunhill 39
Joe> 	I used to see this in the record stores, but haven't for quite
Joe> a while.  Should it be around?

Yes, it should.  It was reissued about a year ago.  Cheap vinyl copies
are plentiful in Boston used record stores, too.

Joe> Mal Waldron/Steve Lacy "Snake Out & Herbe De..."  Hat Art  2015
Joe> 	Mmmmm... I have HOT HOUSE and like it a lot.

Joe> Steve Lacy & Mal Waldron  "Herbe De L'Ouble"  8/81  HatMusics 3513
Joe> 	Half of the above??

Hat has issued this (great) stuff as singles and as a double.  They
are about to release a 4-CD set of this material with presumably much
more.  I suggest waiting to see what that's like.

Joe> David Murray 4tet "Live at Ocean Club" Col.1&2 w/ L. Bowie (!!) India
Joe> Navigation 1032

A classic early DM album.  The CD combines two LPs with maybe one cut
deleted or shortened.  Fred Hopkins and Phil Wilson round out the 4.

Joe> Lester Bowie "No. 1 & 2" w/ Rosco M/Jarman/Favors 8/67.  Nessa 1

Another good one.

Joe> W. Horvitz, Butch Morris, B. Previte, Frisell:  "Todos Santos"  SAS 19

Music of Robin Holcomb.  This is a beautiful album, nicely paced,
ethereal but not mushy.  

Joe> David Murray & Dave Burrell in concert 10/12/91 Duo  Victo 16 
Joe> Could this recording be a Koncepts gig??

No, it's from Victoriaville 1991.  I saw so-so reviews of both the
concert and the album.  Again, you might wait -- they have a duet
album coming (Jelly Roll Morton tunes!);  there's also a duet called
"Daybreak" which is supposedly good.  And "Remembrances", a recent DIW
with Hugh Ragin and Tani Tabal is great.

Glenn

Xref: sparky rec.music.bluenote:9520 alt.config:8089 misc.misc:4147
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote,alt.config,misc.misc
Subject: Re: CFD: Enough Interest Out There To Form a 1920's-30's Jazz/Dance/Big Band Newsgroup?
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:33:22 GMT
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division

In article <j521H+7fjb@atlantis.psu.edu> barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr) writes:

>I'd seriously consider trying to make rec.music.jazz first, before
>settling for alt.

This has proven impossible when suggested in the past.

That said, I don't see why rec.music.bluenote.early would be
unworkable.  That assumes that discussions of Big Band and other early
jazz forms really *are* crowded out on rec.music.bluenote, which
another poster has taken issue with.

I'd say try other avenues, including mailing lists or a mainstream
Usenet group, before relying on alt to do your dirty work for you.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote,alt.config,misc.misc
From: barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr)
Subject: Re: CFD: Enough Interest Out There To Form a 1920's-30's Jazz/Dance/Big Band Newsgroup?
Organization: Penn State Population Research Institute
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:02:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.183734.23107@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>Hello,
>
>What should we name it should there be enough interest?  Some ideas:
>
>alt.music.early-jazz
>alt.music.1920-40
>alt.music.20's-30's  (kind of hard to type out)
>alt.jazz.early
>alt.jazz.1920-40

	forget the years.  What's wrong with just 'alt.music.jazz'?
If you want to limit it to Big Band, I'd suggest alt.music.big-band.
I'd seriously consider trying to make rec.music.jazz first, before
settling for alt.

--Dave
-- 
System Administrator, Population Research Institute    barr@pop.psu.edu
	What if there was no such thing as a hypothetical question?
From: scott@sklib.usask.ca
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Valerie Wellington dies at age 34
Date: 4 JAN 93 01:06:13 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
NNTP-Posting-Host: sklib.usask.ca

        Valerie Wellington, a blues singer known for her
portrayals of singing greats Bessie Smith and Ma Rainey on the stage,
died Saturday of an aneurysm at 34.
        Wellington became ill before a performance Thursday and was admitted
to Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood in a coma. She never
regained consciousness and died Saturday afternoon.
        ``She was so young. It was much too soon,'' said Lenin Pellegrino,
owner of the Kingston Mines blues club and a close friend. ``She was a
fine person and a fine entertainer.''
        Wellington, a graduate of the American Conservatory of Music,
returned to Chicago in December after a month-long tour of Japan.
        She portrayed blues idols Bessie Smith and Ma Rainey in theatrical
shows in 1984 and won wider recognition with a series of television
commercials for the Chicago Tribune in which she played a blues-shouting
grocery store cashier and a raucous conductor on a Chicago Transit
Authority elevated train.
        Wellington also portrayed the 1950s blues singer Big Maybell in the
1989 movie ``Great Balls of Fire,'' which depicted the life of rock n'
roll legend Jerry Lee Lewis.
        Wellington recorded for Chicago-based Alligator records and the B.L.
U.E.S. label.
From: rshapiro@bbn.com (Richard Shapiro)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: On Drugs, Bebop and The Wire
Date: 29 Dec 92 15:43:28
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: mingus@cbnewsl.cb.att.com's message of Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:48:42 GMT

Lewis was attempting to write *rationally* about drug use and abuse
and its relationship to so-called deviant culture (of which jazz
certainly used to be, and maybe still is, an example). I don't know
what discursive life is like in the UK, where The Wire is published;
but I know that it's become essentially impossible to mention drug use
publicly in the US without taking the hellfire and brimstone approach
- rationality has long since gone out the door.  No doubt this article
is flawed in some of the ways Marcel mentions.  But I still regard it
as a healthier and more useful way to deal with this subject than the
usual claptrap we get in the mainstream press.  Lewis is at least
trying to think through fairly complex issues with something other
than the familiar drugs-are-evil cliches. I applaud the effort.


Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: cjn@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (curtis.j.newton)
Subject: Re: Joe McPhee 
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:08:09 GMT

I'd second steve's recommendation of Oleo, it's a really fun
recording--especially for a drummer!  My other favorite McPhee is
Old Eyes.  The title track was the first McPhee I ever heard, and it's
haunted me to this day.

Curt Newton
cjn@mvuko.att.com
From: jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Classic pop and jazz, 3
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:21:59 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University


            Greater Boston area residents take note!

            From 12:15 pm, Sunday, January 24, through all the 
        following Wednesday, WHRB-FM  (95.3) presents "The Benny 
        Goodman Orgy".  

            (from the program Guide):  "We will enjoy a cross-section 
        of his records, spanning all decades and labels, including all 
        16 volumes of the superb Victor boxed set of 1936-1939.  The 
        Orgy will follow a loosely chronological path, but will also 
        utilize collections which span a number of years.  We have set 
        aside a portion of Tuesday afternoon, from 3 to 6 pm, for his 
        classical music performances, with music of Mozart, Bartok, 
        Copland, and others. 
            "And note that the famous exuberant, joyous 1938 Carnegie 
        Hall concert will be broadcast as the culmination of the Orgy 
        at approximately 9 pm Wednesday.  The complete music from the 
        concert will be heard (we include on Victor studio recording 
        to replace a concert master record damaged and omitted from 
        Columbia's issue of the concert)."

            Also worthy of note:
        Sunday, January 10, 2-4 pm:  Walter Donaldson Centenary
                         4-5:15 pm:  Jimmy Durante Centenary Tribute
From: dnb@meshugge.media.mit.edu (David N. Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Don Cherry suggestions?
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:02:45 GMT
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory

Howdy-
  I just picked up "Multikulti" in a bargain bin at a local store.
What a find!  I'd heard Cherry's work on a Tony Vacca/Tim Moran album
("City Lights"), and thought it was very good.  Can anyone recommend
more albums by this artist along this vein?
           Peace,
               dNb
--

 David N. Blank-Edelman              o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o   
 M.I.T. Media Laboratory            /#      ##o     #     o##      #\
 E15-473F, (617) 253-2169           / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: mingus@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Damballah Wedo)
Subject: Re: On Drugs, Bebop and The Wire
Organization: The Poto Mitan in the Houmfor
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:04:04 GMT

> corman@Ingres.COM (Anthony Corman):
> Some years back I studied with a fairly well-known musician who had
> dabbled while on the road with Chet Baker; he backed off when he sensed
> he was getting hooked, but felt that above all the drug helped him to
> hear very clearly. I'm sure that at some point it must feel quite wonderful.
> He said he wanted to fell what Bird felt; we all know that one, of course, and
> I agree that the heroin renaissance is scary and very disappointing.

Narcotics like heroin, opium, morphine, etc work by depressing central
nervous system functions (This is why you hear stories about people
burning/cutting themselves when high and not feeling it). The brain fills
in with a feeling of euphoria which I'll tell you from personal experience
(smoked opium twice) is *fantastic*. It's the most seductive thing
imaginable, a *simultaneous* feeling of intense awareness and complete
detachment. Yeah, I can see spending a lot of time chasing that feeling.

Which is the problem, really. Tolerance and withdrawal build so quickly
that soon one is no longer chasing the high, but avoiding the sickness.

Here's another paradox for you: despite the feeling that heroin helps
one hear clearly, the recorded evidence is that music played by junkies
is just not as good. As Bird himself said "when I'm on the needle, I
can't even finger the horn correctly, let alone play something creative."
Which opens up the other problem: all these wonderful ideas bubble up,
but that depressed nervous system won't let you execute them, so they
fly away as you nod out. And when you wake up they're gone, and you
go get high again, to try and find them...

By the way, similar claims have been made for hallucinogens like LSD,
peyote, etc. But these are harder to handle because they stimulate
the nervous system, so that external stimuli (like music, but also
passing car horns) are perceived that much more strongly.

I am not a Just Say No fanatic. I just think that whatever the reasons
why musicians choose to try heroin (all reasons are valid, by the
simple fact of their existence), the effect of the drug on the music
and on its practicioners has been tragic, and a writer who chooses
to ignore this effect or that tragedy is not being responsible or
rational.

Here are some questions: what led Bird to become a junkie at 15? why
did he always tell people not to follow him into junk yet make no effort
to clean up himself? 
-- 
Marcel-Franck Simon             	mingus@usl.com, usl!mingus

	" Papa Loko, ou se' van, ou-a pouse'-n ale'
	  Nou se' papiyon, n'a pote' nouvel bay Agwe' "
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
From: cczanj@vax.nott.ac.uk (Andy Jack)
Subject: Perry Robinson on Liberation Music Orch.
Reply-To: cczanj@vax.nott.ac.uk (Andy Jack)
Organization: University of Nottingham, UK
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 13:22:40 GMT

Just before the Christmas break, someone (Gidi?) said that there was a
reference to the Democratic convention in the liner notes of the Liberation
Music Orchestra album. Not in the UK, there wasn't. My copy has a listing of
titles, personnel and the helpful information 

	"File under POPULAR - Pop groups"

EMI who had the rights to Impulse in the 60's/70's committed several such
faux pas in their desire to help out record shops who didn't know what to make
of the stuff they were selling. My favourite was a Coltrane sampler which had
the first few minutes of "Om" as the first track on side 1. There on the top
right hand corner of the sleeve was 

	"File under POPULAR - Popular Vocal (Male)"

	Happy New Year.
	Cheers,
	Andy

(and I'm saddened to learn that there was a reason for "Happy Days are Here
Again", I've spent twenty odd years thinking it was just inspired lunacy!)
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