From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Predestination Mr. Adams
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:21:43 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

Steve Gross writes an article defending predestination:

> In order to believe that some are predestined and some not though, you
> have to believe in the sovereignty of God.  I am not convinced that you
> do.  The doctrine of predestination is actually very comforting and
> encouraging to the christian, because it shows unequivocally how much
> Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, (three in one) love us.

Mr Gross, I am somewhat surprised to find that you are a promoter of the idea
of predestination, after your rails against homosexuality.  The reason I find
this ironic is that as a seeming follower of Calvinistic doctrine, you must
thereby hold that man is "totally depraved", that man is incapable of doing
good, and it is only through the "common grace," to the exact degree that it
is bestowed, that man can be good.  In fact as grace is irresistible, we are
good only to the degree that your god wishes us to be good.  Thus, it hardly
makes sense for you to rebuke homosexuals, even if you find homosexuality to
be sinful, as they have no choice in that matter at all; the choice lies
solely in the hands of your god.  Further that fallen nature was implanted in
every man by of your god.  For that matter, if we are to accept Calvinism, the
ultimate responsibility for that sin also belongs to your god and not Adam. 
You god planned and implemented the fall (else he could not, as Saul of Tarsus
insists, have chosen the saved before the earth was made).  Therefore Adam
was destined to eat the apple, and as he acted specifically as his nature
determined, and the Calvinist god explicitly created Adam's nature.  Now it is
possible that you do not accept the fully lapsarian position of debased and
determined (though free) will, but if that is so, then you will find yourself
hoisted on the petard of Calvinism`s buttressing rationale (yes, I guess this
is an invitation to discuss Calvinism and its logical requirements).

So Mr Gross, it seem rather ironic to chastise homosexuals, if your doctrines
implicitly states that they are incapable of doing any differently, except
when they are specifically given sufficient irresistible grace by your god, to
reject homosexuality. 

By the way, perhaps it was just my perception, but it seemed that you being
deliberately provocative and condescending in you reply to Steve Adams:

>  You might even find that liberality
> is not a gift from the Lord, for the enlightening of one's mind, but an
> extremely subtle trap for the weak minded.  (No flames for this please, I
> already know how most of you feel)

and

> You are an extremely educated man Mr. Adams, and I hope that you will look
> into this area intellectually as well as emotionally.  You will benefit,
> I'm sure.

I do not than doubt you would be just as offended if the the equivalent
condescending accusations aimed in your direction.  As an example, the
equivalent accusation to to your claims, made only slightly more intense would
be a statement like:

    I hope that you will actually take as honest a look at Calvinism as I 
    know you are capable of making.  You might thereby come to realize how 
    Calvinism is a subtle trap for the selfrighteous to egotistically expound 
    on how worthless and repulsive the rest of humanity is for not having 
    received "saving grace".  Further, many times they thereby use such 
    justifications of moral superiority, to try and legally inflicting their 
    prejudices on the rest of man, as did Calvin and the Puritans.  If you do 
    take the time to give Calvinism a fair hearing, I sure that you will 
    become enlightened as to its implicit conceit, and become a better person 
    for it.

Mr Gross, if you do not wish to frame this discussion in such an attitude, then
perhaps it would be better to avoid such jabs.  

				Later,

				Dave Butler

    Whence is it that so many peoples, together with their innocent little
    children should be deliverered to death eternal through the fall of Adam,
    unless it should please God.
				John Calvin
				as quoted by George Seldes
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc