From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Anthony Rose - Please respond
Date: 5 Nov 92 23:59:38 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov5.131015.12966@cbnews.cb.att.com> wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (Willard C. Smith) writes:
>I am assuming that Mr Rose missed a question that I posed to him. And I
>am hoping that he will see the subject heading and respond.
>
>In an article posted on Oct 30th under the subject heading: "Willard and
>the History of the Vision," Mr Rose stated:
>
>    And actually, I have read much more LDS material than non, or anti-LDS
>    material.  As far as I am concerned, the best "anti-LDS materal" is the
>    church's own published works!
>
>This concerns me a great deal. As I have been going back carefully over
>Mr Rose's postings (since Sept), he has posted a number of quotations
>from works such as _History of the Church_. If Mr Rose simply copied
>these passages from someone else's diatribe, then all he can be blamed
>for is being gullable. If Mr Rose was actually responsible for editing
>of some of the quotations, then I am very disturbed by what he has done.
>
>FOR EXAMPLE, on October 21st Mr Rose posted (under the subject of: Stephen,
>the Mormon Lurker Speaking Out: Reply") the following section:
>
>|Now, let's look at some of Joseph's prophecies.  Is there one that
>|didn't come to pass?
>|
>|In 1843 Joseph made this prophesy:
>|
>|     "There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste
>|      death till Christ comes.  I was once praying earnestly upon
>|      this subject, and a voice said unto me, "My son, if thou
>|      livest until thou art eighty-fove years of age, thou shalt
>|      see the face of the Son of Man.....I prophesy in the name of
>|      the Lord God, and let it be written- the Son of Man will not
>|      come in the clouds of heaven until I am eighty-five years old."
>|                        History of the Church Vol. 5 pg. 336
>|
>|Joseph would have been 85 years old before the turn of the century, and
>|there is no one living today that was alive in 1843.  Therefore, we can
>|say that this did not come to pass.  This was not the word of the Lord,
>|as Joseph said it was.
>
>The problem is that this "false prophecy" is a fraud of a different sort.
>The quotation in HC 5:336 has been edited to make it mean something other
>than what the actual passage meant. The actual passage states the following:
>
> Edited Out>>>  Were I going to prophesy, I would say the end [of the
> Edited Out>>>  world] would not come in 1844, 5, or 6, or in forty
> Edited Out>>>  years.
> 
>                There are those of the rising generation who shall not
>		taste death till Christ comes. I was once praying
>		earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto me,
>		"My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years
>		of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man."
>
> Edited Out>>>  I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this;
> Edited Out>>>  and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to
> Edited Out>>>  that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not
> Edited Out>>>  say whether He will make his appearance or I shall go
> Edited Out>>>  where He is.
>
>		I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be
>		written - the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of
>		heaven till I am eighty-five years old.

The parts I left out were for the purpose of not having to type in the
whole page.  Even with the parts you added, it doesn't change the fact
that this was a "prophecy".  Joseph Smith also prophecied that Jesus
would return in 1891 in other places as well.  This prophecy when right
along with the other.

     "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called
      because GOD HAD COMMANDED IT; AND IT WAS MADE KNOWN TO HIM
      BY VISION AND BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.  He then gave a relation of
      some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to
      Zion - our trials, sufferings: and said God had not designed
      all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it
      WAS THE WILL OF GOD that those who went to Zion, with a
      determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be
      ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard FOR
      THE LAST TIME, OR THE COMING OF THE LORD, WHICH WAS NIGH - EVEN
      FIFTY-SIX YEARS SHOULD WIND UP THE SCENE."  (HC, Vol 2 p182)

This prophecy was given in Feburary 1835.  1891 is the year that the
"scene should have wound up", but it didn't.  And it is funny that here he
is prophecying Jesus would return in the same year that he was above.
It is quite obvious that Joseph thought that Jesus would return in 1891.
To beleive otherwise is ignoring the facts.

>It should be obvious to anyone, that this sections is rather choppy. It
>is because it is a reconstruction of a sermon that Joseph Smith gave in
>April of 1843. The notes were taken in long hand (not short hand) and it
>is obvious that some of his remarks are missing. However, it is clear
>from the context that the sections edited out indicate the following
>important points:
>
>1- That Joseph Smith is SPECULATING about when Christ is going to come.
>   Not that he was actually predicting the year of Christ's return.

If you can write off, "I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let
                       it be written.."
as "speculation", then that is your business.  When a man says he is
prophecying, then I have to take his word for it!

>2- The edited sections point out that Joseph Smith felt that Christ
>   would not return BEFORE 1890, not that he would return ON 1890.
>   The only way to extract that Christ would return on 1890 from this
>   passage is to include Joseph Smith's explicit provision - that Joseph
>   Smith would have to be alive in 1890!

Once again, the "if" clause that is in this prophecy, clearly shows that
it is referring to whether or not Joseph will see.  It is not referring to
Jesus returning.

You are saying that Joseph is saying, "if I live to be 85 years old, then
Jesus will return".

I am saying that Joseph is saying, "if I live to be 85 years old, then I
will see it".  If you look at the text, you can only get the latter.  The
"if" clause does not refer to the coming, but to whether or not Joseph
will see it.

>All of these points are significant to any Mormon who would approach the
>problem posed by Mr Rose. The fact that they have been carefully edited
>out suggests a willingness to misrepresent the passage. I am not saying
>that Mr Rose is responsible for this editing job. He may merely have copied
>it from some other Anti-Mormon source without looking it up first, and his
>claim that he obtained his material directly from LDS sources would simply
>chalked up to the bravado that typically issues from exchanges of this type.
>
>My question to Mr Rose is where did you copy this passage? Please name
>your source!
>-- 

From the History of the Church Volume set that I bought at the LDS
bookstore called "The BeeHive", located in San Jose, CA

Really, it doesn't matter where I got it from, if it is true!

>              Willard C. Smith
>  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
>   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com