HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Shamir says ( Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:19:19 GMT
	<EGGERTJ.92Dec15225404@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Dec17.010144.6869@muddcs.claremont.edu>
	<BzEsy9.ILK@newsflash.concordia.ca>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <BzEsy9.ILK@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>   Maybe you did not hear about the recent Shamir quote:
>
>	   ``We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the closest
>   of contacts. We know that these people have no respect for human life,''
>   Shamir said.
>	   ``They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''
>
>   He was your prime minister, you know!

Shamir was also a terrorist.  Israel is one of the few countries in
the world where a bona fide terrorist was freely elected to be a prime
minister.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Collaborators
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:40:15 GMT

>In article <23061@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>Please post the names and
>circumstances under which PLO-affiliated activists who've stated
>"slightly non-standard opinions" have "sought protection from Israeli
>authorities".  Come on.  Let's see you do it.  You say "you know" of
>"numerous" such cases.  Describing ten (10) cases would be enough.  OK,
>five (5).  Alright -- just two (2).  Can you provide us ONE (1) example
>of a PLO-affiliated activist who did no more than state a slightly
>non-standard opinion, and as a consequence was forced to seek protection
>from Israeli authorities?
>Yigal Arens

OK, Dr. Arens, here we go.  Go ahead and eat your words:

From the New Republic, November 23, 1992, p.28 (Article "The Palestinian
Meltdown" by Steven Emerson): "The first Palestinian to openly criticize
the internal killings was Adnan Damiri, a Fatah activist who had served
in an Israeli jail for training in a Palestinian terrorist camp in
Lebanon.  In a June 1991 article in Al-Fajr, the second-largest
Palestinian newspaper, Damiri wrote that 'the revolution has started to
swallow its children.'  He criticized the roving groups of teenage
executioners.  'One cannot tolerate such punishment by people who were
not elected ... many of those who were killed were innocent of
collaboration ... the dream of the intifada has turned out to be a
nightmare ... if this continues, we're going to leave the country like
Rechavam Ze'evi [the ultra-right-wing Israeli Knesset member who
advocates "transfer" of the Palestinians to Jordan].  Almost immediately
after he published his article, Damiri was threatened by the death
squads and forced to seek protection from Israeli security forces on the
West Bank."


	Excerpts of Adnan Damiri's remarkable article also appeared
	in the LA Times (I posted one in 8/91).  In 8/91, Ahmed
	Jibril, head of PFLP, threatened Palestinian moderates
	with BEHEADING.  (See the front page story of the 8/18/91
	LA Times.)  Little wonder that outspoken moderates
        seek protection where they can.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: informed heart
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:00:06 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Ron Evans

 RE> I came here to develop what Bruno Bettelheim called the
 RE> informed heart--good will, speculative intelligence, and
 RE> practical wisdom working in tandem--on Middle East affairs.

It's good to be reminded of the important values in life. (No
irony here, btw.)

 RE> I refer to the Proposal for Peace....

To which I say "amen." I agree with the document with no
reservations or qualifications whatever.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  galaxy-watching robot seeks measure of the universe
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians (fwd)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 07:58:40 GMT

In article <23102@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

# In article <1992Dec18.211147.16575@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# > In article <1gtbv7INNnf8@mizar.usc.edu> srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose) writes:

# > # Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians is wrong, for at least three
# > # reasons.
# > # 1. It is illegal (according to Israeli, as well as international
# > # law).

#   Since the Israeli Supreme court allowed it, you are an idiot if
# > you think it is illegal according to Israeli law.
 
# Mr. Makowsky, we all know you are the mother of all idiots -- but do you
# *have* to demonstrate it again and again?  For your information, the
# Israeli Supreme Court allowed the deportation to take place without
# ruling on its legality.  It set a date about a month from now for
# arguments on that issue.
 
	Well maybe I am the "mother of all idiots", although I doubt it.
And maybe I demonstrate it again and again, although I doubt it.
However, in this case it is you Mr. Arens who is stringing himself up
with the idiot rope.

	If it was illegal, the Supreme court would have stoped it.  In
fact, a temporary injunction was granted (and than revoked or expired)
for just that reason.

	The fact that individuals may have their cases heard to determine
whether the actions should apply to them is different from whether
conducting the mass deportation was illegal or not.  The nly way they
could have a case (and the effect of releasing you from idiot status)
is if all cases were overturned.  And even than it would not prove
your point.

# > As to international
# > law, it is only illegal if you assume the FALSE interpretation of the
# > fourth geneva concention that all deportations are illegal.
 
# Article 49 of the 1949 (Fourth) Geneva Convention on the Protection
# of War Victims states, among other things:
 
#   Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of
#   protected persons [i.e., inhabitants of occupied territory -- YA]
#   from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or
#   to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited
#   regardless of motive.
 
# I can see how easily this can be FALSELY interpreted.  Good to know that
# you have the CORRECT interpretation in your pocket.

	As I have written here before, William Safire (among others) has
shown that the evolution of that convention, including its official
interpretations, prove your interpretation (whether or not it matches
the wording is irrelevent) incorrect.  Your interpretation does provide
for good ad-hominem straw man arguments though.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: hate mail
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:48:50 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

 MIK> This is the SECOND TIME you claim that you have received
 MIK> hate mail from me!  YOU ARE A LIAR!  You've NEVER gotten
 MIK> one piece of mail from me in your life.  I HEARBY GIVE YOU
 MIK> UNRESTRICTED PERMISSION TO REPOST ANY MAIL THAT YOU HAVE
 MIK> RECEIVED FROM ME. Please realize that if you do not post any
 MIK> mail received from me, this group will realize what a lying
 MIK> piece of garbage you are.

Why Monsieur Kaufman, you have just provided us with a wonderful
example of the kind of hate mail I am referring to. I assume the
"you" in your message above does not refer to Santa Claus but to
yours truly. You are addressing hate mail to me in full public
view of quite a few people, some of whom are watching with
considerable interest.

I am "a lying piece of garbage"? Does Case Western Reserve
University realize what kind of messages are originating from
their system with its name stamped on them?

Every time that an emotional supporter of Israel raises his or
her voice against an American citizen in this fashion, they are
hastening the day when the U.S. will wash its hands of Israel
altogether. With every foul word that comes from the mouth of
people like yourself, the will to disentangle the U.S. from
Israeli affairs is being steeled. You and your comrades may be
deriving an immediate emotional gratification from your verbal
violence, but when the bill comes due for your lapse in
judgement--and I guarantee you that day is not far off--you may
be in for a rude shock.

I have never seen the sort of repulsive personal attacks from any
other nationalist group in the U.S. that emanate from militant
Israeli nationalists every day in this country. People like
yourself are driving a wedge between the U.S. and Israel, and
poisoning the well of good relations between Jews and non-Jews in
general.

As I said before, keep up the fine public relations work and keep
those lovely notes coming.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  Aibohphobia (n): The fear of palindromes
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:)
Subject: Re: Exchange rates of the Middle East:
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 15:55:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.010719.13252@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.002148.2413848@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
> 
># Exchange rates of the Middle East:
> 
>#                       U.S.Dollar       currency 
>#                       Equivalent    per U.S.Dollar 
>#                      Tue     Mon     Tue     Mon 
>#  SOON TO BE          .3013   .3013  3.3195  3.3195 
>#  FOREVER             .0142   .0142   70.30   70.30 
>#  PART OF            2.6504  2.6504  0.3773  0.3773 
>#  ISRAEL              .3743   .3717  2.6720  2.6900 
>#  AND THERE IS       1.4832  1.4789  0.6742  0.6762 
>#  NOTHING YOU        3.3389  3.3333  0.2995  0.3000 
>#  CAN DO            .000535 .000534 1868.00 1871.00 
>#  ABOUT IT!           .2665   .2665  3.7520  3.7520 
>#  HA! HA!             .2723   .2723  3.6725  3.6725 

Somehow I believe that this is really your intention.

Nabil
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:03:43 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec16.194303.1893@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
~
~Here we have an enraged mob (why pray tell would they be so mad). Let
~us not interpret the anticks of a few enraged people to be
~representative of the views of Jews in general.

Let's not interpret the antics of the Israeli Supreme Court, in allowing
the mass deportation of Palestinians, without any trial, or right of
appeal, in contravention of international law, and any basic standards of
humanity, as representative of the views of Jews in general.

Err...hang on a minute, can someone suggest what ARE the views of Jews in`
general??


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Pollard & Terrorism
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:19:31 GMT

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

Mark,

Let me explain something to you: I do not engage in conversations
with folks on computer networks who engage in habitual personal
abuse. I learned a long time ago that such conversations, and
such persons, are a waste of time. On most computer networks with
which I am familiar, you would have been permanently booted off a
long time ago. Personal abusiveness is considered one of the
gravest sins among those who are interested in making this medium
work and thrive.

After I received my third consecutive abusive message from you
some days ago, I added you to my twit list. I have no interest in
reading your messages, never mind engaging in a "dialogue" (i.e.,
screaming match) with you. Your style of communication is not
doing much to promote the cause of Israel, I suspect.

I just scanned the full message base and noticed that your are
still screaming so loudly that your mind can't settle down enough
to understand what you are reading:

 MIK> Is this "letter" in the Blitzer book?  Did Friedman claim
 MIK> in his review that this letter by Pollard is in the Blitzer
 MIK> book?  Had Friedman heard about this letter from the
 MIK> recepient?  Did Friedman ever read the letter himself?
 MIK> WHERE IS THIS LETTER?

Robert Friedman never claimed the letter was in Blitzer's book.
Friedman has many sources of information about Pollard besides
Blitzer, and he used these sources in evaluating Blitzer's book.

This is typical of all your communications: you misread messages,
jump to wild conclusions, project views on your "enemies" that
they do not hold, and then wildly flail at your own
hallucinations. Sorting through all this mess is more a job for a
therapist than anyone else, and I don't propose to do it.

If you send me a private message indicating that you will drop
the abusiveness from your messages, which is completely
unacceptable, and will make an attempt to focus your mind on
facts, then perhaps we can resume some sort of communication.

But in any case, for your own sake, and the sake of whatever you
consider to be your holy cause, you should really try to get grip
on yourself.

Btw, if Robert Friedman says that letter exists, it exists. He a
professional journalist of the highest quality. Pollard is
clearly on the record as supporting the most repulsive forms of
Jewish terrorism. I can understand how this fact would make you
uncomfortable, since you've launched yourself headlong on a
crusade to help Pollard, but those are the facts. Perhaps you
should think more carefully about the character of the person
whose cause you are promoting, and whether Pollard and his more
hysterical comrades are doing any good for Israel, or are merely
compounding the damage that Israel and his incompetent handlers
have already done.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: israeli extremists
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:09:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.1777.20941@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:


> WM> Have any German or French high government officials called for
> WM> the deportation of minorities from their countries? Perhaps Le
> WM> Pen in France has, but he is not as powerful in his country as
> WM> Netanyahu is in his. If Le Pen were interviewed by King and
> WM> Koppel, would they fail to make an issue of his views towards
> WM> minorities?

> NS> The minorities in those countries are not thorpwing stones
> NS> and killing the majoriy people of the countries.

>I see: so you support the deportation of Palestinians from
>Biblical Greater Israel, correct?

In <1g8patINNa25@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Mark Ira Kaufman wrote:

    Benjamin Natenyahu called for mass deportation of Palestinian
    AGITATORS.  He did not call for the deportation of all of the
    Palestinians.  His call was for deporting people who violated
    the law.  And we are not talking about laws that are enforced
    on Palestinians only.  The people that Netanyahu wants to get
    out of Israel are violent people.

I assume that by now you have seen this article, and realized that
your interpretation of things was at least slightly off.

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:55:48 GMT

In article <1619@tdat.teradata.COM> jcg@tdat.teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:

# In article <1992Dec10.174035.28319@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:

# >In article <1568@tdat.teradata.COM>, jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:

# >>What "riot"?  The "police riot"?  The Muslims gathered to counter-protest
# >>were deliberately or accidently tear-gassed and responded by driving the
# >>militia from the plaza but not before one of there number was shot dead.
# >>The crowd then stayed in the plaza until it was stormed by the militia using
# >>automatic fire which killed the rest of the victims.

# >I suppose that only due to your short memory you didn't state that those inocent
# >people stormed the Jews that were praying there with a rain of stones.
 
# Why would I state something that is not true?
 
	Because you often do.  However, the above is truth.

# The congregation at the Wall left when they heard the outbreak of gunfire.
# What ever the intentions of those throwing stones (they could not see where
# they landed), they were not posing a threat to anyone. 

	You seem to have fallen for the Teddy Kollek/60 minutes lie of
what happened.  I tell you what.  A friend of mine was there when it
happened.  I do not want to post his name on the net, but if you
respond to this I will see to it that you get in touch with each
other.  He knows what happened a lot better than you do SINCE HE WAS
THERE!
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: dcs@witsend.tnet.com (D. C. Sessions)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: ... Those who stop hurting themselves
Date: 20 Dec 92 15:56:03 GMT
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R

In <BzIIxp.G3z@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)  wrote:
# My opinion is that we have to be realistic and clear in our objectives.
# It is neither a state of war nor a state of peace in Palestine, and this
# is not a good situation:
# It should be either a state of war where any Israeli soldier is a fair
# game, and any armed Palestinian also a fair target for Israelis. In that
# case no body should be complaining about any killing.
# or a peaceful resistance where massive demostration are made to force
# some negociated solution.

  YES!  As it is, the contradictions rob Palestinians of credibility.
  It's hard to object to Israeli soldiers shooting at people
  throwing stones at them when your own side blows out Israelis'
  brains when their hands are tied.

  Why does this matter?  Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make peace without
  credibility.  Why is this stupid?  Because the Palestinians are
  suffering more than the Isrealis.  Why does it continue?  Because
  the Palestinian leadership is fragmented, and there are those among
  them who continue to benefit from the status quo.

----------

  Kudos aside for Ilyess: He is one of the bright points of tpm.
  Lately he's THINKING in terms of feasible solutions, and if
  enough people start to do that there may be hope yet.

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Hamas
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:13:53 GMT

In article <1geqdcINNhqk@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article 12736@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>  And, it should be added, Jews were a 60%+ majority in
>>the part allocated to Israel 
>
>About 55%.  The usual figure ignores the Negev bedouin.
>
>>- which did *not* include Jerusalem (and
>>Jerusalem c. 1948 was roughly 70% Jewish).  
>
>The international enclave of Jerusalem had marginally fewer 
>than 50% Jews.

The international enclave also included several suburbs.  The city
itself was roughly 70% Jewish (we've discussed these statistics before).

>>So the partition was quite fair.
>
>About twice as much land (with more than twice the average
>economic value) per Jew as per Arab.  If a little circle was
>drawn around each Arab house and the remainder was given to the
>Jewish State, the latter would have been 100% Jewish and so
>even fairer, according to your logic. 

This is the most ridiculous misrepresentation of my views I have
seen in quite a while.  You're implying that I don't think
there should be Arabs inside Israel, or any Jewish state.  That's
complete hooey.  Balderdash.  You should be ashamed of yourself for
misrepresenting my opinions so.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 15:27:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.203830.4291@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:
>
>Sorry, I wasn't their at the beginning of the discussion of this thread,
>so perhaps some points are not clear to me.  I am also interested of
>what Ilyess would say if he has a different opinion.

My opinion is that we have to be realistic and clear in our objectives.
It is neither a state of war nor a state of peace in Palestine, and this
is not a good situation:
It should be either a state of war where any Israeli soldier is a fair
game, and any armed Palestinian also a fair target for Israelis. In that
case no body should be complaining about any killing.
or a peaceful resistance where massive demostration are made to force
some negociated solution.

The problem that Hamas is stating an unreacheable goal: conquering the
whole of Palestine which can onlybe done by killing most of the Jews there
because most of them do not have homes elsewhere and will not accept to live
an Islamic state.
Hamas is too late, maybe they should have existed in 1948 when most Jews
did not come yet.  You cannot have an Islamic state in a region where the
majority is Jew. Also they are going overboard, IMHO, by saying that the
whole land of Palestine is Waqf, they have absolutely no proof on that
and I have studied all the Hadiths about this issue.

On the other hand, a war of liberation to liberate the west bank and
Gaza is feasible if you have enough people to do what that "Rambo" guy
did last week. Sorry to call him that, but I used the term for easy
identification.

=============================================================
Modified Murphy's first law of realistic probability:
If it can happen, it will happen...
Unless of course "it" is a good thing.
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Ilyess Ben Ali Bdira    Montreal Quebec  Canada
E-mail ilyess@ECE.concordia.CA, benali@alcor.concordia.CA
Phone Number and Address variable...
::::::::::::::********************************:::::::::::::::
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast