From: slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer)
Subject: Re: Fetal tissue research, Nathanson, etc.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 04:03:22 GMT

>In article <BrIpKH.1AE@news.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>>chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>>
>>>slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>>>> chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>>
>>>The following are excerpts from the book, "Mothers in the Fatherland" by Claudia
>>>Koonz, Ph.D. and professor of history at the College of the Holy Cross, 
>>>Worchester, Mass.  Ms. Koonz shows that the Third Reich was very much anti-
>>>abortion regarding BlondeBlueEyedChermanFrauen.
>>
>>> 	Although the combatants [Catholics and Nazis] were unevenly matched
>>>	in the sterilization controversy, they agreed on one issue:  The
>>>	individual ought not be entrusted with the right to make decisions
>>>	related to his or her reproductive potential.  Catholic women
>>>	disclaimed women's rights to limit pregnancy except by abstinence;
>>>	Nazi women extolled motherhood as their highest goal in life, while
>>>	denying to thousands of "undesirable" women the chance of ever
>>>	marrying and bearing children.  Neither group of women believed they
>>>	had the right to control their bodies.  According to Catholic dogma,
>>>	no individual could interrupt a pregnancy for any reason without
>>>	disobeying God's will because every human life was equal in the
>>>	divine order.  Nazi doctrine, founded on the distinction between
>>>	"worthy" and "unworthy" life, enforced selective breeding by
>>>	increasing penalties for abortions and prohibiting birth control.
>>>	Both doctrines took decision making away from the individual.
>>
>>Dr. Koonz is incorrect.  Penalties for abortion were not "increased".
>>Note that she fails to provide examples of what the law was before the Nazis
>>came to power, and how it changed afterwards.  It takes very little research
>>to discover that Imperial Germany had outlawed abortion in 1870, mandating
>>a year's prison term for the woman, and a similar stretch for the 
>>abortionist.  That law was relaxed via the "eugenic courts" instituted in
>>1934.  She omits this fact.

>"Eugenics". Think about that word, Kellmeyer. Maybe it's important to your
>research. Could it possibly be that the Nazis were ANTI-abortion for 
>"desirable" races and PRO-abortion for "undesirable" ones? Could it be that
>they weren't "pro-choice" at all, since they, i.e. as a totalitarian regime,
>wanted to control the reproduction of their citizens, instead of entrusting
>those decisions to the citizens themselves?

It could be, of course, but the facts don't support that interpretation.
Read on.

>Does your research address this compellingly OBVIOUS interpretation of 
>history? Or do you, as I suspect, suffer from a intellectual blind spot in 
>this regard?

>								- Kevin
Let's talk about intellectual blind spots, Kevin.
       YOU DELETED the next piece of evidence your compatriot supplied,
a piece of evidence which ANSWERS the  "question" you pose above and
which merely PROVES ME CORRECT.  You also deleted the response which
I gave, the response which showed both Dr. Koonz and Chris to be in 
error.

The next quote Chris Lyman supplied was a quote from a Nazi officer (1935,
I believe) in which the officer STATES that 500,000  abortions
were taking place every year.  The quote was from Dr. Koonz's book.  This
was convenient, since it is also used by Dr. William Brennan, as evidence
of the Nazis SUPPORT of abortion.

Both Koonz and Brennan agree:  500,000 abortions in 1930's Germany.

Now.
The population of Germany in the 1930's was 35 to 37 million.
1.6 million abortions are performed in the US each year (give or take 100K).
The US has a population of 255 million (give or take).

On a per capita basis, that means: 
Nazi Germany had 0.0143 abortions per person or about 143 abortions/10,000. 
1980's US had 0.00627 abortions per person or about 63 abortions/10,000.

Which means the putatively illegal abortions in Germany were occuring at
				*TWICE*
             the rate of LEGAL abortion in the US today.

Both Dr. Koonz and Chris Lyman show a vast intellectual blind spot.
For people who were ostensibly interested in "controlling reproduction"
the Nazis were doing a damned poor job.  Just think about this.  Present-day
America ADVERTISES abortion.  A woman who wants one only has to go to
a Yellow Pages and pick one.  Koonz and Lyman would have you believe that
the Nazis were ruthlessly routing out and destroying ANYONE who dared
to perform an abortion on an Aryan woman, that abortionists were hiding
in dark cellars and dank alleys, relying on word-of-mouth transmittal.
Yet Nazi Germany's abortion rate was TWICE that of the US today.
                           HOW?????   It isn't possible.

The Nazis were PRO-abortion for "inferior" races.  They SAID they were
anti-abortion for the Aryan race, but when you actually check what they
DID about it, it's bloody obvious that they didn't give a damn. They
were mouthing propaganda about being tough on crime (e.g. abortion)
when, in fact, they didn't do more than make an occasional, well-publicized,
raid to keep their white-collar supporters happy.  (A fact little known
outside of historical circles is that the Nazis got more support from
relatively educated people than they ever got from blue collar workers).

Hitler was an extremely adept politician - most men of his ilk have to be.
He used whatever elements he could find to support him and did the 
minimum necessary to keep their support.

Read "Das Delikt der Abtreibung im Landgerichtsbezirk Monchen-Gladbach
in der Zeit von 1908 bis 1938" by Konstatin Inderheggen (you need to know
how to read German script, though) published in 1942.  It's a source
document on criminality in the Third Reich produced by the Nazis themselves.
The number of abortion arrests peaked in 1920, the number sentenced for the 
crime peaked in *1925*. By 1936, the number arrested (4,321) was down by 200%
from the 1920 peak (16,459).  The number sentenced in that year (3,552)
was *HALF* the 1925 total (7,193).  The number of criminal proceedings for
illegal abortion DROPPED EVERY YEAR, ONCE THE NAZIS TOOK POWER.
They even had several amnesties for offenders.

You say they were anti-abortion.  If so, why would they show themselves
to be so lackadaisical about enforcement?  Why would they demonstrate to
the world that they WEREN'T keeping on top of a crime they were supposed
to hate so passionately?  Unless, perhaps, they didn't really hate it all
that much?  As you well know, once you're pro-abortion in one area, it's
damn tough to avoid being pro-abortion in other areas.  If the Nazis
were anti-abortion, it was in rhetoric only (and not even much of that).

Weimar Germany was a hell of a lot nastier on illegal abortion than the
Nazis were.  The Nazis created the first legal abortion in Germany for
reasons OTHER than life and health of the mother, and cut down on the
number of prosecutions and amount of punishment for those abortions which 
remained illegal.  Given the age and the atmosphere, they were as pro-
abortion as one could reasonably expect to get in Germany.

Steve Kellmeyer