From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Developement of religious strata Judaism and Christianity (related to Islam)
Date: 21 Dec 92 09:09:10 GMT
Organization: Institut Imag, Grenoble, France

[ I removed soc.religion.Islam from the distribution because the turnaround is
long]

In article <1992Dec18.041028.29184@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lhermi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi) writes:
>Here is a glimpse in Ibn Khaldun's Muqadimah in which he describes the
>development of the Jewish and Christian religions he also points to the 
>relationship the three monotheistic religions have with political autho-
>rity and leadership. 
>
>Save for analysis.
  >
 I'll give some direct comments here. But before i start, i'll give my
opinion about Ibn Khaldoun and his Mukaddima. I read it when i was 16 years
old, i was fascinated by his analyzis of the nationalism ("Alasabyiah") and
his theory about the ages of nations. But i should add that some chapters of
the Mukaddima seemed to me very childish and inaccurate (consider the one
where he speaks about "Magic" for example).
   The following text of him contains several VERY offending stereotypes about
Christians. And i feel really worried about the the intentions of the poster,
given that he already posted several articles directly targeting Christian
Arabs (I still remember his article about Copts entitled "in the mind 
of a Christian Arav"). And given the increasing intolerance on this group 
expreamed by readers like Hamzah Salah and co. I will just underline what
i consider to be a major misconception in the text which follows.
>Lotfi
>
>
>[31]  Remarks on the words "Pope" and "Patriarch"
>in the Christian religion and on the word "Kohen"
>used by the Jews.
>
>Such a person is the one who is called ruler.
>
>In the Muslim community, the holy war - Jihad - is a religious
>duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission
>and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal au-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 I'm really decieved here, i thought (and still think) that
Islam taught there was no compulsion in religion. Which is in a
complete contradiction with what Ibn Khadoun writes. But
given that someone AS knowledgabe as Ibn Khaldoun THE HISTORIAN
writes such a phrase. I think it's safe to conclude that the
obligatory conversion was considered to be "acceptable" by at
least some scholars.

>thority are united in (Islam), so that the person in charge
>can devote the available strength to both of them at the
>same time.
>
>The other religious groups did not have a universal mis-
			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sion, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save
^^^^^^^
  Huh ?. Where does this "information" comes from ?. And why
should "holy war" (a false translation of Jihad, i think
many Muslims will object to it) be associated with the universality
of religion ?. Christianism spread quite well through the pagan
world without violence for at least three centuries.

>David became king, and then Solomon. His kingdom flour-
>ished and extended to the borders of the Hijaz and further to
>the borders of the Yemen and to the borders of the land of
>the Romans ( Byzantines) . After Solomon, the tribes split
 Sorry, but i needa serious reference to believe that Solomon's
kingdom extended to Yemen and the land of Romans, even the
bible tells it was much smaller than that. And during the rule of Solomon there
were no Romans.
>
>
>
>
>The head of the Christian ( community) and the person in
>charge of ( Christian religious) institutions is called Patriarch.
>He is their religious head and the representative (caliph) of
>the Messiah among them. He sends his delegates and rep-
>resentatives to the remote Christian nations. They are called
>"bishop," that is, delegate of the Patriarch. The man who
 The "authority" is a non-centralized structure, the Patriarch has
NO superiority over the Bishops and he Doesn't "name them" neither
delegate them. Thay are elected and should be accepted by people.

>leads the prayers and makes decisions in religious matters is
>called ''priest." The person who withdraws from society and
>retires into solitude for worship is called ''monk." The latter
>usually seek solitude in (monastic) cells.
>
>
>Thereafter, there were dissensions among the Christians
>with regard to their religion and to Christology. They split
>into groups and sects, which secured the support of the
>various Christian rulers against each other. At different times
>there appeared different sects. Finally, these sects crystallized
>into three groups, which constitute the ( Christian) sects.
>Others have no significance. These are the Melchites, the
>Jacobites, and the Nestorians. We do not think that we should
>blacken the pages of this book with discussion of their dogmas
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of unbelief. In general, they are well known. All of them are
 ^^^^^^^^^^^				       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unbelief. This is clearly stated in the noble Qur'an. (To) dis-
 ^^^^^^^^
>cuss or argue those things with them is not up to us. It is
						       ^^^^^
>(for them to choose between) conversion to Islam, payment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of the poll tax, or death.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
 Well, if anyone tries to convince me that implementing such a 
policy means "egality" then he's really a brain damaged.
>Later on, each sect had its own Patriarch. The Patriarch
>of Rome is today called "Pope." He is of the Melchite
>persuasion. Rome belongs to the European Christians. Their
>royal authority is established in that region.
>
>The Patriarch of the (Christian) subjects in Egypt is
>of the Jacobite persuasion. He resides among them. The
>Abyssinians follow the religion of (the Egyptian Christians).
>The Patriarch of Egypt delegates bishops to the Abyssinians,
>and these bishops arrange religious affairs in Abyssinia. The
>name of ''Pope" is specially reserved for the patriarch of
>Rome at this time. The Jacobites do not call their patriarch
>"Pope." The word (Pope) is pronounced Pappa.
>
>
>''God leads astray whomever He wants to lead astray,
>and He guides whomever He wants to guide." 
>
>
  A final comment, i hope Mr Hermi doesn't believe in what he
  quotes, otherwise any dialog is really worthless. And with all my
  respect to Ibn Khaldun, i think that this text above is really of
  very bad taste.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:5821 soc.culture.turkish:13489 soc.culture.iranian:11105