From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: More about bilingualism (Was: Baltic Russian-speakers
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:36:08 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <1992Dec14.143832.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.094708.16043@cs.chalmers.se>, tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec13.232817.20011@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>>Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:
>>>>However, I do not agree on the same kind of bilingualism as is the case
>>>>in Finland. Estonia was NOT a bilingual country 50 years ago, and
>>>
>>>Hm, I'm too lazy to look up the figures right now, but wasn't
>>>the proportions of Russians in Estonia 50 years ago in parity
>>>with the one of Swedes in Finland, that is 6-7%?
>> 
>> Yes, you are more or less right. And, the percentage of germans in Estonia
>> was approximately the same as the percentage of russians. 
>
>No, the pergentage of Russians was five (5) times higher than that of
>Germans. In 1939-41 most of the local German deserted Estonia
>(Heim ins Reich!).

You are right again. I was thinking about the time before and at the
turn of the century. My sole point was that historically German language
in Estonia had a similar status to Swedish in Finland.

Local Germans deserted Estonia due to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact
"selling" Estonia to Russia. One can consider them the first victims of
this deal in Estonia.

>> Now my point in rejecting the bilingualism of the Finnish model is that
>> total official bilingualism with Estonian and Russian, so that official
>> documents have to be also filled in Russian, will be considered absolutely
>> unacceptable by over 90% of the Estonian citizens. 
>
>Sorry, here we have a deep disagreement. Deep in my heart I think
>that the bulk of Estonian citizens (if your estimation is correct)
>is reactionary in this respect. And the documents SHOULD NOT BE FILLED
>in Russian, the point is that they COULD ALSO BE FILLED in Russian
>(a normal procedure in bilingual countries like Finland: there
>are Finnish and Swedish and bilingual blank forms).

I would probably agree to that in cities on the eastern border which
have been made predominantly Russian, like in Narva and Sillama"e,
there were the option of filling all documents either in Estonian,
Russian, or both.

I would maybe agree to the analogous option on a slightly wider scale,
but after a long deliberation of pro-s and con-s. 

I would certainly not agree that documents SHOULD be filled in Russian
or both Estonian and Russian, except in a number of special cases,
where the second language should be freely chosen by the concerned person
(eg. in court), in which case it needn't be Russian.

I do indeed think that the bulk of Estonian citizens is reactionary
in this respect.

>> The need to use Russian
>> in official papers associates directly with the rule of USSR with all the
>> consequences. 
>
>
>Correct. But the traumatic past should not exclude THE POSSIBILITY of
>using Russian in official papers.

It would mean that Russian has a special status, higher than, say,
of English. I would agree (as I noted earlier) on many cases where
the language should be freely choosable by the concerned person,
in which case it needn't be automatically Russian.   

>> The existence of independent Estonia and the Estonian culture
>> as a whole associates directly with the language.
>
>
>Exactly. As that of the Finnish culture. Still, we are bilingual.

I am not certain about the meaning of "bilingual", except as given
by law. When speaking about the widespread linguistic capabilities
of people, there are more languages that two in Finnish and Estonian
bilingualism. I expect that in Finland English is not spoken much
worse than Swedish :-). 

>> This sentiment is so ridiculously strong, 
>
>Here I agree, if existent, it sounds a bit ridiculous.
>
>> that, say, if 
>> foreign passports in Estonia were to be filled both in Estonian and Russian,
>> I'd maybe consider dropping Estonian citizenship. 
>
>Are you serious? Or maybe here is a misunderstanding: would you consider
>dropping Estonian citizenship if foreign passports COULD BE FILLED
>in Estonian and in Russian and the there were three languages printed in
>the passports: Estonian - Russian - English?

I am more or less serious. I meant the hypothetic case where passports
SHOULD be filled in both Estonian and Russian, with Cyrillic letters
and all.
	
Probably I would not want to be a citizen of such Estonia.

To me it would mean not bilingualism, but the first successful steps of
real Russian domination in Estonia, with the predictable consequences
in few centuries. There is an incredible difference between the
expansionistic capabilities of Russia and Sweden, just look at the map.
I am russophobic, defined as "afraid of the country called Russia", feeling
insecure about Russian politics in the near and far future. 
  
Again, I brought this example, since I estimate the majority of
estonians shares this "reactionary" attitude. And, of course, the
language I object to in passports and in official documents is
just Russian. I would agree with using, say, English (or French, etc,
though anything except English would probably be impractical) as
a second official language. For example, everything in the Estonian
foreign passport is both in Estonian and in English (English, though,
is in small letters, as a translation), and I rather prefer it this
way.   

>> I agree that this
>> is perhaps unexpected to the outsiders 
>
>You are right! It is very difficult to legitimize such a feeling
>in nowadays Europe.

What do you mean by "legitimization"? That it cannot have analogies?
That it is against any international norms? That it is immoral?
Notice that the objection is specifically against Russian, NOT against,
say, English, German or French, etc.

Of course I am against the United States of Europe, with
the common citizenship, absolutely free movement of people and the
central European authorities. 
 
It is an incredibly optimistic, oversimplified idea.
Just look at the weirdly strong reactions against the very few coloured
people there are in Finland, with regular attacks against black asylum-seekers.
Fortunately there seem to be no analogous anti-foreign attitudes in Estonia. 

>> - the point is to show that
>> it is practically impossible to adopt the Finnish model of bilingualism.    
>
>You have definitely not shown that it would be practically impossible.
>You have just shown that you would not like it - in accordance
>to the majority of Estonians, which is unfortunate indeed!

I have shown, IMHO, that considering full official Estonian-Russian
bilingualism in Estonia is unrealistic.  
  
>> At the same time a majority of estonians agrees to speak to local
>> russians in Russian. In a mixed-language environment at work the language
>> mastered best by all the participants, either Estonian or Russian,
>> is normally used.  
>
>
>Here I agree: this is a linguistic ability of Estonians the Finns
>should envy (as I do): during the summer I shall move to Estonia
>and brush up my Estonian and Russian.
> 
>
>> IMHO.
>> This is one immediate reason for the language requirement in naturalization.
>> All non-handicapped citizens are supposed to have some idea what is written
>> in their passports and other official documents.
>
>If Estonian and Russian were used in official documents (as in Finland
>Finnish and Swedish are used) this problem could be easily solved.
>And passports should be trilingual as in Finland:
>
>                  SUOMI FINLAND
>
>                  PASSI PASS
>                  PASSPORT
>
>                  Suomen kansalainen
>            Finsk medborgare   Finnish citizen


Estonian passports are bilingual - Estonian & English.

>Sorry, I do not buy your arguments (at least, not yet).

The arguments were mainly there to show that imaging full official
Estonian - Russian bilingualism in Estonia is unrealistic.

Of course I can give further argumentation about what are the
reasons and motives for that (basically that estonians would feel
absolutely unsecure about the fate of the whole estonian state, culture
and language), but this would be long. 

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet