HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Fighting for Crown..Another question.
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:37:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.093431.13345@bsu-ucs> 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum) writes:
>
>Okay, here's another oddball question just out of idle curiosity...
>
>Have _both_ members of a prospective Royal couple ever entered a Crown list?
>Or is this explicitly ruled out?

Did not the lady who won the Crown of Ansteorra beat her own lord in
the finals?

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: graham@Civil.Concordia.CA (Graham to my friends)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rattan Swords - why we tape them
Summary: Tape is a safety measure
Keywords: rattan
Date: 27 Dec 92 05:15:32 GMT

I just read a couple articles about rattan swords and the making,
shrink-wrapping and otherwise altering thereof.

I don't think shrink-wrapping them is a good idea if the potential exists
for the wrapping to become a missile, notwithstanding the fact that it
doubles their lifespan.  Most people get two swords out of a stave and the
stave costs $20.00.  if they use up a sword every 2 months (about my speed)
then their swords cost $5.00 a month, no?  Is this worth running the
risk of hurting someone when the shrink wrapping flies off? Or can people be
hurt by a sword that has become a broom within the shrink wrapping?

As for the tape, I was informed that the tape was to prevent *splinters* of
rattan from flying into the eyes of said opponents and thus creating
discomfort.  This has happened with me and my Master, Allyn Min Teanga even
with a taped, but badly beaten sword.  I would say that probably the
original impetus was to make the swords -silver- with duct tape and thereby
look like metal (if you squint real hard in the sunset with the sun shining
into your eyes you might be fooled.)  But it probably made sense the first
time someone used an untaped sword and the outer husk of the rattan (*very*
brittle, almost like it's been lacquered and when broken can make small,
sharp edged 'bits') against someones face grille, creating a shower of
'eye-splinters'.

The only thing that the Marshal's Handbook says about swords is that they
can be taped (pg.32 Weapons:2:a) and they cannot be treated so as to reduce
their flexibility (pg.33.Weapons:2:b).  If a case exists where a sword was
so pulped that the shrink-wrapping flew off and the rest of the sword was a
broom, that might be construed as having affected the rattans' flexibility.
Draw your own conclusions - it's a tough call.

I personally think that if something doubles the life of a sword it is a
VERY GOOD THING.  I would like to know more about the shrink-wrapping thing
because if it can be made legal I'll get in touch with Master Bjorn Karlsson
(earl marshal of the East) and see about it getting passed by the
Marshallate so everybody benefits.  But if it doesn't work or is dangerous 
he (and we) should know about it.

							Everard.

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 19:26:33

    Moreach wrote:

 HR> Germany and Scandinavia were very much part of western culture.

 T> Only in the same way that the Mongols were very much a part of Asian
 T> culture.

 DO> Considering they ruled most of it, I don't see your point. There's a 
 DO> lot more to Mongols than you suspect, I think, or you wouldn't say
 DO> this. 

 SH> And the same could be said for the Norse, since the Normans were of
 SH> *recent* Norse extraction when they became the rulers of not just the
 SH> area Tadhg idolizes, plus everything down to a good-sized chunk of
 SH> Mediterranian Africa.

 SH> Perhaps he has decided that despite being rulers of the area, they had no 
 SH> influence on it? Or that moving to France for a generation or so somehow 
 SH> removes them from being of Norse extraction?

 No, but it certainly removes them from being of "Norse culture". It's
 astonishing how quickly they dropped their "Norse culture" (if there was
 such a thing) and adopted that of northern France -- which is what they
 took with them. When the Normans conquered in England, Sicily, and the
 Holy Land, they didn't bring Norse with them, but Norman French.

 SH> Dunno about that. They sure had no trouble remembering how the sail
 SH> those nasty longships, and invade... and put an axe up your
 SH> multi-great grandpap's nose... I don't imagine the Saxons thought them
 SH> all that "reformed" by their SH> stay in France. :-)

 I know of no evidence that the Normans used "longships", nasty or
 otherwise, nor that they were particularly fond of axes. Moreach, you
 watch too many movies....


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Date: 29 Dec 92 15:45:02 GMT


    Mikjal Annarbjorn wrote:

 MA> William bemoans the inauthentic nature of the structure of the SCA and
 MA> wonders how to begin to change it.  If you'll permit, a few small
 MA> suggestions. ...

    Yeah! Do it!


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Non-European Personas
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:18:04 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Dec19.174054.12673@midway.uchicago.edu> ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>I do not know what a good Arabic term for "King"
>would be. "Malek," I believe, literally means "King" (I donUt speak
>Arabic, unfortunately), but I think it is usually used as one of the
>terms for God. 

Our current Crown Princess (Shaheena) uses what sounds like "malekka" as 
her title when she's queen. 

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West
--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Policy
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 17:25:40 GMT

I like the Midrealm policy, not because it excludes anyone, but rather
because, being listed as a non-belted invitee to Crown is considered an
honor.
	The list of non-belted invitees is printed in the Kingdom
newletter, and until they alphabetized the list, the top dozen or so
fighters on the list, were very likely to be knighted within the year.
This list serves as an informal ranking of fairly skilled fighters and
it is an honor for a fighter to make the list. It also serves as a rough
guage of skill for a fighter, since a fighter can't be embarrassingly
bad and be invited to Crown.
	Occasionally though, Royalty will invite a marginal, or
ineligable fighter, because They feel that that person would make a good
ruler. Some years back, Princess Ariake was invited to fight in Crown
list, because she was a good fighter and a great person. Had she done
so, she would have succeeded herself as queen (a no-no) so she declined.
             
Lothar \|/
        0  

 
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:05:44

 JB> 1) None of the things you mentioned above fail your test.

 The test is a rule of thumb for complexity, not for whether a practice is
 simple but eccentric.

 JB> 2) Ten Words in which language?

 Latin, for preference....

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 30 Dec 92 22:57:09 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:

>    I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part of the
>    western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I suggest that a
>    substantial case could be made. This means Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy,
>    and I even look askance at most of Germany....

I'd very much like to know what culture you define medieval Scandinavia to
be part of. All this sounds (to me) very much like you've decided what
result you want beforehand and then tailored your definitions to fit your
desires. Germany and Scandinavia were very much part of western culture.

>    Non sequitur. To quote Laurel, "We follow the general practices, not
>    the exceptions."

The impression I've gotten is that you mostly follow English practices,
which on the evidence appears to be the exception (As opposed to most
other Western European countries).

>    The College of Arms (to a lesser extent than I do) focuses on the
>    practices of the "core" of feudal civilization: south of the Trent,
>    north of the Loire, west of the Rhine. You seem to perceive "western
>    Europe" as some sort of homogenized mass, from which any cupful is
>    identical to any other cupful. Not so.

I should like some evidence to support the contention that the area you
describe is somehow the core of feudal civilization.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 8 On Fealty
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:55:14

I realize that the article did not cover the difference between "homage" and 
"Fealty"....it is an article from a legalistic point of view that was 
requested by the current Princess of the Sun relative to some questions she 
had....but I hope it helps.

As I can only contact the Rialto about once a month, please reply to:


   The Bard's Curse:                          -Ioseph of Locksley
   "I'll make you -immortal-"                  Curmudgeon at large

   Reply to:             Joe.Bethancourt@f110.n114.z1.fidonet.org
        (contact here is about once a week)

   Or:                   Joe.Bethancourt@f105.n114.z1.fidonet.org
        (contact here is twice daily, but E-mail has to be forwarded
        by the SysOp)

... Use the fork, Duke...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: sinister@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Wanted: Help With Japanese Persona
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:15:40 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

	Greetings unto all the good gentles of the Rialto who
read this, and in particular, to those of Nippon to 
who this missive is directed.

	A friend of mine is considering joining us all in these
Current Middle Ages.  His interests are of feudal Japan, in
all respects.  However, he is someone who aspires to a high
degree of authenticity, once he gets underway.
	A few evenings ago, he and I were talking about the Society,
and he voiced concerns that a Japanese persona, in persona,
language considerations aside, might not be appreciated by the
more European gentles of the Barony.  He sited, as a quick
example, the difference in attitudes that the Society has
for ladies, compared to the actual Japanese POV.
	I was wondering, then, are there some kind folk who
might be willing to describe problems/non-problems with
having Japense personae in the Society?  I would
dearly appreciate your help in the matter.  As I do not
read the Rialto regularly, please direct replies to my
Demon, who responds to the call of Internet: Sinister@ac.dal.ca.

	My thanks in advance, my best wishes to all this
Christmastide season.

	In Faith and Service, 
			Cosmano
_______________________________________________________________
  Cosmano Piero Michelotto da Roma  |    Michel Vaillancourt
    Canton of Seashire              |     Halifax
     Barony of Ruantallan           |    Nova Scotia
      East Kingdom                  |    Canada!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|  Disclaimer:  None Required... U of Dalhousie doesn't think |
|           I can do that much damage, even un-supervised...  |
|                                     --'Sinister             |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drifting Away...
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:15:35 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <724130910.F00001@ocitor.fidonet>,
Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
|> -- so far as I know, they just let it fall.  Skates are very definitely

Skate blades were made of sheep's shin bones.  Reference: a book called
something like "Horn, Bone, and Antler" that Master Stephin Armstrang owns.
              
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: period firearms
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:57:08 GMT

In article <9212301802.AA04380@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:

>One more factor: where are we going to get functional period firearms?
>I do not know of any company that manufactures them, although I'm sure
>they exist for the appropriate price.  If SCA smiths took to making
>them, they would have to worry about the legal implications of
>manufacturing a possibly dangerous product, etc.  

Excellent, safe reproduction firearms are available.  They have been
seen at Pennsic War for years.  Gunsmiths have recognisable markings
for their equipment to allow for easy safety checks.  English Armoury
in Wolverhampton, UK, makes and sells a very basic matchlock musket
(very clunky) for about L100 (he will ship overseas).  Schroeter in
California imports a matchlock musket that is a real work of art, for
about US$ 600.  Others are available in between.  Schroeter also sells
really beautiful wheel-lock pistol kits.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:38:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.114654.20859@aifh.ed.ac.uk> bhw@aisb.ed.ac.uk (Barbara H. Webb) writes:

>This was that the
>simplest way to open up the possibility of becoming Sovereigns to
>non-fighting couples would be to allow entrants to crown lists to fight
>as the champion of such a couple. I.e. rather than being inspired by
>their consort, they are inspired by the nobility/wisdom whatever of this
>couple and wish to put them on the throne. 

Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
royalty to non-fighting couples?

>Now I intend to improve my fighting, and aspire to enter Crown
>tourney at some time in the future. But who do I fight for? As I'm
>biologically female, according to Copora I must have a male consort.
>Even given the faint chance that I find a male willing to have a female
>persona so that things "look" right, if I was to win, I'd rather hold
>the Crown as Caitlin, who has far more experience in the society to draw
>upon (and a much better choice of feast garb), and Caitlin would want a
>lord, not a man dressed as a lady, by her side.

So fight the tournament, fight for a male, and if you win, you can
be Queen Caitlin.  The SCA rules don't care about your persona --
heck, there are thousands of Scadians who don't even _have_ personas.

>In other words, were I to enter, it would be as Padraigh fighting to put
>Caitlin and her consort on the throne. 

You could look at it that way.  More to the point, it's YOU, fighting
to put YOUR consort and YOURSELF on the throne.  Whether you call
yourself Patrick or Caitlin or Tiresias.

>So my questions to the folk here: do you think this would be permitted
>under current rules?

Of course.  Providing you are eligible to fight to begin with.

>... but maybe if I fight as Padraigh I have to rule as Padraigh

No, you silly goose.  SCA rules don't bind persona.  You can win as
Padraig, be crowned as Padraig, change your name to Barbara when you
host Crown Tournament, then to Olav in time for Christmas.

>Do you think fighting as Padraigh for Caitlin and consort would be the thin
>end of the wedge for allowing other fighters to fight for another
>couple? (or do the current rules allow it in the above situation only?)

Not likely.  The SCA's structure takes almost no notice of personas
with respect to offices and awards.  The exception that leaps to my
mind is alternate titles, but you could probably rule as Padraig
Ard-righ on Wednesday, and as Scheherazade al-Malikah on Thursday.

>Hope there's someone else out there working over Christmas who can offer
>some answers to distract me from my thesis.

Now _that_ is the noblest caus of all!


Aryk Nusbacher

Who is almost ready to hand in the Preliminary Report to the Provost.
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Prepare to receive cavalry!
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:40:25
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca's message of Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:13:49 GMT


nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
] >A charging armored horseman hit with about three times the
] >impact energy of a .30 caliber round; if what he hit was you, you
] >fell down and probably got trampled.
]
] That is, of course, only IF a charging armoured horseman managed to
] hit you:  no small feat.  A horse does _not_ want to charge into a
] standing man, and it is generally clever enough to avoid doing so.
] Even a trained warhorse _will not_ willingly thump into a barrier.

Napoleonic-era calvary horses where trained to kick, bite, and trample
infantry. I'm not so sure a person with a shield is any more daunting
to a horse than one without.

There's a lot to know about horse psychology, but basicly :
horses are big, people comparatively small, and a horse
being ridden has an enormous amount of respect for (or fear
of punishment for misbehavior from, at least) it's rider.
I own a 1000lb quarterhorse who isn't trained for war, but
is a bit thick-skinned about obstacles : with a little work
I feel I could get him to run through a sheild wall (tho
I never would : too much risk to all involved). Medeveal
horse sometimes weighed twice what my horse did, and were
trained for combat from an early age : I'm sure they'd do it.

] The moral of the story for infantry against horse?  Stick together,
] and make the cavalry charge you.  If you do the job right, the horse
] will have to ride around in frustration while being picked apart by
] your archers.  If you're really lucky, the horse will charge right
] into you, be disordered by the horses' refusal to thump into your
] shields, and the charge will stop dead.  Then you can advance and pike
] the opposing horses and riders to death.

This won't neccesarily work against Mongols. Mongols exploited the
mobility of the horse, and were famed for their horse-archery.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 4 On Fealty
Date: 30 Dec 92 02:44:56 GMT


    Arval wrote:

 JM> Fine, I agree.  What is a fee is the context of the SCA?  You apparently
 JM> include only "real" things like a baron's tenure, and perhaps a peer's
 JM> rank.  I include a great deal more, taking my lead from the medieval
 JM> practice of exchanging payment of some kind for service, which was also
 JM> described in period as "fealty". 

 Technically, in period a "fee" was a source of income, typically land.
 Also qualifying in later times were fees and perquisites from an office,
 the "livery and maintenance" given to knights standing castle-guard, and
 the money fief or "fief-rente" (what we would call a pension or annuity).
 I don't think lump-sum payments qualify....

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Primitive FireArms
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:40:46

 TA> Why?  A firearm, in and of itself is not capable of 
 TA> harming anyone.  They 
 TA> can't leap off of a shelf, load themselves, jump 
 TA> into the hands on some poor 
 TA> victim, and then injure someone.  The moral 
 To digress a bit from where your intent was heading, period firearms 
 have a slightly better chance of undue injury than the modern variety 
 do.  There is this tendency to explode.  I've only read about this, 
 and never known anybody it happened to, but I'm not very active in any 
 of the blackpowder areas.  I will admit that if I got the chance to 
 participate in such a competition, then I would skew somebody's vision 
 of accuracy by wearing safety goggles.  I wouldn't want to fire an 
 inauthentic weapon, no matter how much safer it would be, I'd just 
 want to protect myself from the consequences should the gun blow up in 
 my hand.  I also wouldn't be standing next to someone firing, unless 
 I knew them well, and knew that their gun was fairly safe, and that 
 their handling of weapons safety & cleaning & so one was impeccable.
     Hmmmm, I could probably dress up a pair of hearing protectors as 
 one of those mid 15th headdresses (called "ear-tits" by some), and 
 since the primitive handgonnes don't show up until about then anyway..
 ....
    ;> Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Mike.Andrews@f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Andrews)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: buying chainmail link
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 13:33:00 -0500

Greetings from Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, of the Barony 
of Namron, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (Norman, Oklahoma) 
 
Organizations: Waytes and Measures, a Medieval and Renaissance Consort 
 
 On 12-23-92 BLACKWOLF wrote to MIKE ANDREWS... 
 
 B > greetings from bryn-gwlad 
 B > 
 B > i'm interested in bulk links myself to the following specifications 
 B >    ... *flush cut* not clipped 
 B >    ... steel, phosphor bronze, stainless, niobium (later for a 
 B > specialty 
 B >        project that i'll have to do), silver 
 B >    ... various guages and diameters 
 B >    ... quick delivery of bulk orders (probably in 10-25lb lots on 
 B >        a regular basis) 
 B > think he is a possibility?  (i have a club full of dancers who want a 
 B > in-house armourer ... mail, plate, & leather) 
 B > bw 
 B >    - sysop: Black Ice Fidonet 1:382/7.0 
 B >  * Origin: Black Ice    (1:382/7.0) 
 
A very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and Yours, my Lord. 
 
I think he is a good bet, but I can't give you details as I don't know 
them. I am informed, by people I consider reliable and informed, that 
just about any recent movie with armor in it has some of Gypsy's work. 
This may mean that he has prior committments that preclude meeting your 
needs, and it may not; I think it's worth investigating. 
 
May Fortune smile upon you this Twenty-Fifth day of December. 
 
Michael (Mike Andrews) 
(405) 364-0270 
429 Dakota, Norman, OK 73069 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * "Vescor, poto libens, rithmizans invoco Musas ..." (Sedulius
Scottus) 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca