HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.singles
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:20:00 EST
 <1992Oct7.130304.19446@cbfsb.cb.att.com> <1992Oct7.223842.5451@jetsun.weitek.COM>
Distribution: na
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <1992Oct7.223842.5451@jetsun.weitek.COM>, nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf) writes:
> In article <1992Oct7.130304.19446@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jjd1@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.j.dutton) writes:
>> 
>> Diane, idealism is all fine and good BUT it fades fast when
>>the other elementary school kids find out your kid won't fight back.
>>He's going to encounter confrontations ten fold.
>> At some point a man has to do what a man has to do.
>> Eventually your son will being fighting for his slice of the pie
>>in life and you are not going to be there.
> 
> Ditto for little girls. My father taught me to box when I was very small.
> I was undersized for my age, and a fifth grade bully started to bother me
> in early second grade. One day he grabbed for me and I hit him hard in the
> stomach, twice. He never bothered me again, but the school was angry with
> ME! :-)
>  
> 

It's strange, schools seem to ignore bullies but punish girls who retaliate
against one.  Mandi, the teenager I am volunteer advocate for, had some 
problems with a boy in the parochial school where she was attending while
in a foster home.  He was harrassing her by flicking her across the breasts.
She complained several times but nothing was done to make him stop.  One
day he was sitting next to her in class and poked her in the breast.  She
told him to stop it or he'd be sorry.  He poked her breast again.  She
reached over and grabbed him in a VERY tender place and squeezed HARD!  
He let out a scream!  Guess who got sent to the principal's office, got
lectured strongly by the priest, the nuns, etc.  
I wish I had known about it at the time, I would have been over there
chewing a piece off the priest!

Sue

> -- 
> The Earth Pig Bourne....
> 
> nadja@node.com (prefered email address)
> nadja@weitek.com
From: PXH@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: hungry 2.5 year old!?
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:42:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: psuvm.92281.134238PXH
Organization: Penn State University

Hi, I think I have a strange problem!  My son, soon to be three (in Feb,
1993), has all of a sudden developed this "habit" of saying he is hungry
every few hours, sometimes even more frquently.  No, thankfully he doesn't
wake up at night saying it too!  Actually what he says is "Mummy, I want
something to eat".  Often this might happen right after a meal.  I really
don't know if he is "just saying" it or really is hungry - when I offer him
something, he always refuses.  In fact I give him several choices, and even
include what many might call "junk food".  Actually, VERY rarely he might
say yes to one of the choices, and then when I give it to him, he will not
touch it!  As you can imagine, it is rather frustrating!  Does anyone else
have similar experiences?  How do I deal with this?
I would appreciate any suggestions!
                                   Deepti
Deepti Pradhan  PXH@PSUVM.PSU.EDU         (814)863-1767 (Work)
430 S. Frear Lab                          (814)231-0503 (Home)
Penn State University
University Park, PA-16802
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom)
Subject: Re: Aggression in boys (Was: Re: BARBIE
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:53:05 GMT

In article <uR3ksB2w165w@depsych.Gwinnett.COM> rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richard Carlson) writes:
>
>I'm sorry you found my comments offensive. But ask yourself this:
>how do you begin to discuss victim behavior and characteristics
>_without_ sounding like you're "blaming the victim."  The point I
>was trying to make was that her "fighting back" was probably
>counterproductive, even though she took evident pride in it.

is that how you interpreted it? well, maybe we can make allowences for it
because maybe you arent aware that misc.kids has this discussion all the
time. I thought Lynn was merely discounting the idea that is you fight back,
you wont get bullied.

Regarding your question, how do you begin to discus victim behavior, etc:
I dont actually know the answer to this, but I suspect that the forum may
be the key. I am sure there are newsgroups/professional organizations/journals
 and colleagues out there where this discussion can take place without people
getting upset. But if you honestly think you can come into a discussion whre
people are talking about being "victims"  and decide to have this discussion,
well then I suppose you deserve to get flamed because it was tactless and
insensitive. I followed your arguments thru your numerour postings, and didnt
feel like I got any practical insight if my children are ever bullies or
victims. All I felt is that you were just a bit obnoxious.

Laura Floom


>Indeed when the muscularly weak wimp "fights back" all sh/e
>accomplishes is to legitimate the aggression of the bully by
>making it "mutual combat."  Of course I never had any idea of
>anything else the wimp could do except possibly move to a
>neighborhood where kids didn't fight.
>
>--
>Richard Carlson
>Internet:              rc@depsych.gwinnett.COM
>Bangpath:              {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!depsych!rc
>CompuServe:            76605,470
>Voice:                 (404) 881-6877


Xref: sparky misc.kids:25516 soc.singles:27245
From: dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.singles
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Summary: distinction between self-defense and aggression
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:55:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: network.1b1lktINN10u
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Oct8.133158.3166@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> nance@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
>
[...]
>I haven't encouraged him to slit throats but I *have* seen to it that
>he can at least defend himself and be somewhat threatening so they go
>pick on a stuffed animal or something.  

Acting aggressively and acting in self-defense are two different
things.  Nowhere did I imply that Dylan would not be able to defend
himself if necessary.  BUT,

[...]
>I'll promise you one thing, though, and that's that if
>your kid hits my kid, he's going to get hit back.[...]

hopefully, Dylan will not be one of those kids who hits your kid
first.  This is the whole point I'm trying to make:  we're raising
Dylan to be non-violent and non-aggressive.  We will not tolerate
unprovoked aggression from him, and I do not see the value in
parents tolerating or encouraging that sort of behavior from
children. 

>Self-defense is a must in this world, and I'm not talking about just
>physical confrontations.  I feel that children should learn from little
>on that they are their own best friend and they should stick up for
>their friends.  Later in life, I hope that this philosophy will manifest
>itself in the theory that the best revenge is your own success.

Again, I don't know anyone who would argue that being able to defend
oneself is a bad idea.  But there's a world of difference between
acting in self-defense and acting aggressively or violently.  Now,
putting aside instances in which self-defense would be necessary,
would you (or Mr. Dutton) advocate the use of aggression or
violence?  If not, then there's no fundamental disagreement here.  

In the playground incident that I related, the bigger boy who
pushed my son was not provoked *in the least*.  He simply walked up 
to Dylan and shoved him.  My argument is that such behavior should 
not be tolerated or encouraged.  Do people really have a problem
with such a view?  If that older boy was *your* son, would you have
just brushed off the incident as his father did?  If the answer is
yes, then you clearly believe that aggression is acceptable, and
that's where I strongly disagree.
-- 
Diane C. Lin			"Live now; make *now* always the
dlin@weber.ucsd.edu	         most precious time.  Now will 
(Dylan's mom, 22 months)	 never come again." (ST:TNG)
From: ctopp@cup.portal.com (Carol F Topp)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: What happened to Barney?
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 09:54:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

A few weeks ago, KTEH, the San Jose PBS station, had a call in question
night. The president of the station answered questions that were called
into a telephone bank. The answer to "Barney" was that the funding was
not allocated for this season. There was enough of a response from
parents, through their local PBS station and funding was supplied
for 20 new shows. They will air (I'm not so sure of this) in February
or about there. 

I was only watching the call in show during breaks in Monday Night Football
and I had never heard of Barney before, but I think I'm remembering things
right (hence the post). The bottom line is to generate letters and
support local PBS station with specific mention of the shows that are
important to you and your kids. 

Carol
From: pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: need words to songs
Date: 15 Oct 1992 14:50:30 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch)
NNTP-Posting-Host: roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu
Originator: pburch@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu


In article <96aLsB3w164w@glnserv.UUCP>, kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon) writes:
|> A while back, several someones wrote the words to some songs. I wrote them
|> down but my computer ate them. Can I please ask for them again?
|> 
|> The songs are:   Puff the Magic Dragon   and   The Unicorn Song.
|> 
|> Since I am collecting these for Girl Scout songs around the campfire, if
|> you have any others that are good, please let me know. Thank you.

If you're collecting words to songs, you really need to buy the book, Rise 
Up Singing ($14.95), by the non-profit company Sing Out, which is devoted 
to the preservation of the lyrics of folk songs.

I know it has the words to Puff the Magic Dragon; I'm not sure about The 
Unicorn Song. It has over 1200 songs in it!

I'm sure you can order it from a bookstore that has a copy of Books In 
Print. I ordered my first copy from Ladyslipper (also non-profit, 
specializing in women's music) at 1-800-634-6044. Their address is 
Ladyslipper, Inc., PO Box 3124-R, Durham, NC 27715.

Rise Up Singing is a great book just to get for yourself--think of all 
those songs you find going through your head but can't remember the 
words to. It has entire chapters of lullabyes, silly songs for children, 
etc.

(I have no connection to either of these companies, but I probably don't 
even need a disclaimer since they're both non-profit!)

Paula Burch
pburch@bcm.tmc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: geiser@netrix.nac.dec.com (Maryann Geiser)
Subject: Re: Odd Sayings...
Reply-To: geiser@netrix.nac.dec.com (Maryann Geiser)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:14:24 GMT


I've been collecting some of my daughter's gems lately (she's 3 years old).
The two that I like best are:

(from the bathroom) Daddy, I made poopie!  Send Mommie in!

(I guess I'm honored)

(from the back seat of the car, out of the blue)  Mommie, it's not nice
    to throw chairs through windows, is it?

That one really caught me off guard!  It finally dawned on me that there's
a scene in 101 Dalmations where a chair is tossed through a window.
Strange what sticks in their minds.

                                        Mair
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: nance@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci)
Subject: Re: Names (don't do this to your kids)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:41:20 GMT

In article <18044@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
>There's a Silicon Valley executive named Dr. (Robert) Pepper.

When I was an undergrad I spelled my first name "Nancie" just for
fun.  When I filled out my college aps I must not have left enough
space between my first name and middle initial "L" and I became
"Nanciel."

I let it go for a few years but changed it when it came time to have
my diploma printed.  :-)

-Nance

-- 
Nance Colucci  *^*^*^*^*^*    o__    *^*^*^*^*  |  Work that body!
att!ihlpk!colucci            _.>/               | Stay fit for life.
                            (_) \(_)
From: lynn@elan.Elan.COM (Lynn Gazis)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:53:59 GMT
Reply-To: lynn@elan (Lynn Gazis)
Organization: Elan Computer Group, Inc., Mountain View, CA

When the bully topic came up on one Quaker computer group I am
on, someone said that he was bullied until he *stopped*
fighting back.  So I also think it is an old wives' tale that
fighting back stops bullying.

That said, I don't doubt that *sometimes* it stops bullying,
and that the people who report stopping their bullies that
way are also telling the truth.

I suspect that discouraging bullying requires a multi-faceted
approach: sometimes encouraging a misfit child to develop new
skills, sometimes disciplining the bullies, sometimes attending
to problems the bullies may be having, and sometimes restructuring
the school environment to avoid things which make a child
stand out in a bad way (e.g. having children choose teams and
leave some to the humiliation of being children last, nominating
a well-behaved child to monitor a worse-behaved child, and thereby
earn that child's resentment - both things which happened to me,
and could have been avoided).

Lynn Gazis-Sax
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: Odd Sayings...
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:19:22 GMT

In article <2628@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM> sg@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Susanne Gilliam) writes:
>
>  Quite awhile ago, there was a very funny thread about bizzare things
>parents find themselves saying in all seriousness.
> 
[many gems deleted]

My mother always said she was going to call her memoirs

    "Reid, Get Your Foot Out of My Root Beer"

which is something my oldest sister once said on an appropriate
occasion.

My wife Ellen was once on the phone with her sister-in-law Laura, a
mother of four, and Laura had to interrupt the conversation to shout
"GET OFF THE STAIRS WITH YOUR ROLLER SKATES!"

Ellen recently had to keep a straight face while explaining to Sarah
that "it's not OK to pee in a bowl in your room".  (I think keeping a
straight face is one of the hardest but most common challenges we
face as parents.)

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richard Carlson)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:17:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: depsych.LV7ksB1w165w

nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf) writes:

> In article <ki2isB1w165w@depsych.Gwinnett.COM> rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richa
> >
> >There could, and probably should, be a whole thread on this point.
> >Is it an old wive's tale that kids who fight back never get picked
> >on, or is that moderated by how well you do it or how hard you
> >hit?  What does "do it better" mean in this context?  Did you ever
> >land a punch?  Did they have any force behind them?
> 
> 
> Yes, it is an old wive's tale. I was routinely pounded on (although I did
> permanently deter one bully) because I was visibly of mixed race and 
> came from a lower socio-economic class than my classmates. I was also
> noticeably more intelligent. In fact, one of the kids used to pound on me
> for 'thinking I was smarter than whites', i.e, by getting the top scores
> on tests.

 Wow, that is a fascinating story!  You had all three kinds of
"difference."

1. Ethnic/religious.  Hostility toward the outgroup takes on some
of the prosocial characteristics of patriotism.

2. Social class.  People from lower classes are seen as dangerous
and people form higher classes are seen as snobbish.

3. People who seem more intelligent are resented in a kind of
parody of Jacksonian democracy.  Along with the late Allan Bloom I
followed this "thread" all the way back to Tocqueville and the
movement from Jeffersonian to Jacksonian democracy, but my real
interest was in understanding the historical origins of the
ideological basis for picking on the studious kid in school.  The
reality, though, is that half of the bad kids picking on the
showoffs are themselves just as smart -- they just hide the
studious part of it.  (For example if you read a book as old even as
_Tom Sawyer_ it soon becomes clear that Tom probably has a higher
IQ than his nerdy half-brother Sid, but he picks on Sid for
showing off the trivial bible knowledge Sid has picked up in
Sunday School.)

In your case you got hit with both "liberal" (anti-elitist) and
"conservative" (racist) myths (ideologemes) amalgamated into one
compound theme!  ["You think you're smarter than white people!"]

> I did get the bullies to leave me alone in junior high and high school by
> letting my grades slip down.

Clearly the wrong solution.  But I have to admit I don't know the
right one!

Btw, how did you discourage that one bully?  Was she (or he) just
a weak and inadequate bully?  Or did you use a real stratagem?
(Everybody talks about outsmarting bullies but there really isn't
any obvious way to do that.)

--
Richard Carlson
Internet:              rc@depsych.gwinnett.COM
Bangpath:              {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!depsych!rc
CompuServe:            76605,470
Voice:                 (404) 881-6877
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: nance@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,soc.singles
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:30:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct8.133929.25919@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.201935.19210@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jjd1@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.j.dutton) writes:
>>>
>>Hey as far as I'm concerned put a dress on
>>him it won't bother me in the least.
>  This is a certifiable sexist statement.  Who says people who wear
>  dresses don't compete for good jobs?

I don't think he was being sexist.  I think he was being realistic.
Take it face value - you put a dress on a boy and he's going to get
laughed at.  Am I wrong?

>  And competing for good jobs
>  doesn't mean fighting and aggression.

 ????  What planet do YOU live on ???  I've been employed as a professional
for 15 years and if you don't think I've seen fighting and aggression,
you're wrong.  Some of the worst clawing and nitpicking and downright
aggression has been shown to me by other women.  Don't glorify a gender
to make a point.

> A prosocial person like
>  Dylan will have a much better chance of landing a good job than
>  a bully who can't get along with anyone.

From his mother's .sig, I see that Dylan is 22 months old.  With Barbie's
help I figured that he's a little under two years old.  While I'm sure
his mother has all the good intentions of raising him to be a certain
way, there are other influences that may just make Dylan turn out the
way Dylan will turn out - not necessarily the way his mother plans.  Tell
me I'm horrible folks, but this DOES happen.

I suggest we not assess little Dylan based on how his mother thinks
he will turn out.
>> 
>  Who are you to tell
>  women that they shouldn't get upset?  

He told *A* woman she shouldn't get upset in a certain situation.
Not ALL women.  You're not helping the cause.
>> 
>>You people [referring to misc.kids] are 100% certifyably insane.
>  Which is why you're still single and we're not.

I didn't know married people were better or worse that single people.
I do, however, know some single people who are single because they
have a hell of a lot of guts.  Why did YOU get married??
>
>> I tell ya what when some kids continously take Dylans lunch money and
>>the school can't do anything about it because it occurs off school grounds
>>and you can't get any cooperation from the parents you just put some
>>tights on old Dylan and tell him to hide under his desk till his
>>Mommy gets there. Have a nice life Dylan.
>  My my, getting homophobic too?  What's wrong with wearing tights?

Amazing.

-Nance
-- 
Nance Colucci  *^*^*^*^*^*    o__    *^*^*^*^*  |  Work that body!
att!ihlpk!colucci            _.>/               | Stay fit for life.
                            (_) \(_)                           
Xref: sparky misc.kids:25861 alt.postmodern:2483
From: elonich@cbnewse.cb.att.com (diane.e.pedersen)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Object not to Barbie, but Popeye cartoons!
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:08:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville IL

In article <1992Oct7.184059.20446@nwnexus.WA.COM>, jbrindle@halcyon.com (Jennifer Brindle) writes:
> All of this argument about Barbie influencing sex stereotypes and how
> damaging this can be to children reminded me of a cartoon I watched
> this past weekend.
> 
> We were grazing across the channels when we passed a cartoon.  Brian
> (who's 3) immedialtely said he wanted to watch the cartoon.  It was
> Popeye.  We stopped. Brutus and Olive Oyl were enjoying dinner togetner
> when he wanted more--he tried to kiss her.  She said no and tried to
> push away.  Brutus just grabbed her, threw her across his shoulder and
> walked away with her.  She was hitting him and yelling help.
> Now if that doesn't make you want to scream, what does?  I would
> much rather my daughter (and son) play with a Barbie who says, quite
> truthfully "Math is hard" than watch a brutal man have such disragard
> for a woman's rights.  Instead of writting Mattel, we should write
> Warner Brothers (is that right?) for making and distributing such
> obvious infrigements on women's rights.
> 
> Jennifer


I agree wholeheartedly with your critcism of Popeye.  But its
noty just Warner Bros. (or whoever) to write, it's the
stations who are buying the cartoons.   Channel 9 Chicago WGN
shows an excess of Popeye, and it seems to be tied to "Larry Harmon
P{roductions" who I  think is affiliated with Bozo copyrights
(its the only cartoon Bozo shows anymore)

Yhe cartoons are STUPID!!!   Everyone in them is stupid!!!
Popeye and Bluto are perpetually wooing the simpering
Olive, who makes pickles look bright.  She is fickle and
goes with whoever seems stronger at that moment.  And all
conflicts are "resolved" with violence.

The worst is something about the cartoon catches my 1-year-old son's
attention -- he doesn't say much, but he can say "Popeye!"
(because his brother likes to watch Bozo during breakfast).
-- 
Diane Pedersen
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
att!ihlpe!elonich
Newsgroups: misc.kids