HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Spraying Bullets with Dangerous Guns
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:05:27 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: North Carolina State University

[MODERATOR:  Henry describes an interesting experiment below,
which I think is relevent to the readership here in rec.guns.
But the motivation and interpretation of results are clearly 
the concern of talk.politics.guns, and I have set the followup 
accordingly.  I encourage the readership to look there for the
rest of the discussion.  Thanks, all.]

  With all this talk about people using non-fully-automatic guns to
"spray" bullets around, I decided to do a little experiment on
how well one could "spray" bullets with a particular non-fully-
automatic firearm.

  I should mention that I am of the firm opinion that *all* firearms
are dangerous, and that the distinctions made by many (mainly
anti-gun) people about how they are only against "dangerous" guns are
quite specious.  These people point out that Hennard could kill
23 (?) people in the Luby's Cafeteria only because he carried two
semi-automatic pistols which could "spray" bullets, and that the very
dangerous "assault" weapons that "spray" bullets should be stringently
regulated or banned because of their extreme danger.  Hennard only had 
10 minutes for his rampage before the police came and his murder spree 
was terminated.  How much safer would society have been if there
were no such high-tech modern (well - the technology is only about
100 or so years old, so it certainly is modern, --- geologically
speaking) guns such as semi-automatic pistols.

  In fact, what if there weren't even revolvers.  What about single
shot handguns?

  So I took a single shot handgun with a break-open action.  To 
fire a shot just pull the bottom of the trigger guard back and the
rear of the barrel tips up.  The extractor pulls out the empty
case almost 1/4" and one grasps the empty with one's finger tips
and pulls out the case the rest of the way.  Then a new
cartridge is pushed into the chamber down to where its rim
touches the extractor and then the barrel is swung back down to
lock in place.  All that is then necessary to fire is to cock the
hammer and then pull the trigger.  Oh yes, it would be valuable at
that time to aim the gun first.  (This is a T/C Contender in
.357 Magnum.)

  I put 10 cartridges in my jacket pocket, took an empty gun and
paced off 5 yards from the target, started my timer and blazed
away spraying bullets downrange until I was out of ammo.  I got
8 of the 10 shots in a square about 2" x 2", with one more shot
about 2" higher and one 2" lower.  It took me 87 seconds, or 8.7
seconds per shot.  It would have been less if I started with a
loaded gun, and if I had practiced this speed firing before.

  Extrapolating from this, it would take less than 3 1/2 minutes
to fire 23 aimed shots.  I think that this answers my question,
and confirms that all firearms are dangerous.  Anyone who denies
this is either uninformed or trying to divert attention from 
this for some anti-gun purpose.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Police & Glocks
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:22:48 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.

scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:
#I have a habit to look at police officers' guns to note what
#he or she chose.  It is amazing how many of them chose to carry
#Glocks.   I guess than when you are expecting trouble you want
#the state of the art on your side and no less.  

 Let me start by saying, I've owned a Glock and I think they
 are very well built guns.  However, don't assume that what a cop
 carrys is what he/she chooses to carry.  In many cases, weapons
 are provided by the police department.  In other cases, the choice
 of weapon is mandated by the department.  There is some sense to
 this as all of the officers magazines are then interchangable
 with one another.  Training is alos simpler if you only need to
 teach one system.

 One reason I think that Glock has "caught on" with alot of PDs,
 is that it is a tough reliable gun, at a cost that is 10-20%
 LESS than many other name brands.  Nowdays police, like all other
 gov agencies, are being hit with budget restrictions.  I think
 a lot of the Glock inroads have been because they are a good
 gun at a good price.  Not because they are the BEST gun. [although
 you are free to feel this way if you are so inclined :-)].

 If you have 2,000 officers, and you can save $40 per gun by buying
 a Glock, you have just saved $80,000 in your budget. That's equal
 to 3-4 fully equiped police cars, or 2 new officers, or some new
 radio equipment, or a trip to the Police Chief convention in Hawaii
 with your girlfriend :-)

 Another reason Glocks were popular with PDs is because they were
 one of the first semi-auto to not have 15 levers and buttons on
 the side.  This was viewed as a plus by the Police honchos who
 saw it as a "simple" gun to train officers to use.  Hence reducing
 training costs.

 Remember, most NYC cops still carry a blue, 4", 6 shot, .38 revolver.
 I doubt if that gun would be the first choice for most of them.

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
                                NRA, ILA, CFC

------------------------------------------
Anti-Gun President, Anti-Gun Congress,
Better buy what you want BEFORE Dec 31.
----------------------------------------
From: merlin@neuro.usc.edu (merlin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How to get a FFL and Can I Still Buy an HBAR in Calif?
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:49:31 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

What do I have to do to get an FFL?

Can I legally acquire a Colt Delta HBAR in California?

Is there any way to convert a blackmarket M-16 to legal status?

Thanks, Merlin
From: scollins@carson.u.washington.edu (Richard Collins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Questions about Boommers
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I've got a couple of questions regarding black powder rifles.
Interest in them was spurred on by my history class, and now I
want a .50 cal Hawken.  I would like to get a rifle in kit form for
two reasons, price and the fact that making the rifle would be a
challenge and quite fun.  Questions are as follows:

1.  Who is a good company to order or purchase one from.  Some
   have pointed me in the way of Thompson Center and also Dixie,
   are there others?

2.  What price range am I looking at?  Is the difference between
   assembled rifles and kits rather extreme, or are they within $80?

And lastly, how long does it take to make on of the sets, using an 
appropriate amount of care and patience.  Anything over six months isn't
worth it.  If our gracious moderator will allow posts to the net, that is
fine, but e-mail works great for me, too.

Happy shooting!
Richard Scott Collins
From: ice@socrates.umd.edu (Fredrik Nyman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: What 686 did I get?!
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:52 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland University College

A few weeks ago I was gun-shopping.  I ended up looking at a S&W 686
(.357, L frame, 6" barrel, stainless).  I rather liked it, but since
I preferred a blue gun, I asked the shop owner if they happened to
have the very same gun in blue.

Sure, he said, and a few minutes later he came back with a gun that
was identical to the stainless one, except that it was blue. :)
I looked over the gun, and to my surprise it turned out to have the
model number 686 stamped into the gun and on the box.

I always thought that the difference between 586 and 686 was that
586=blue, S&W = stainless, so why did I get a blue 686?

Thanks for any explanations,

Fredrik
From: sr2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Malcolm Redmore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Guns (was Re: Arrow proof? Re: Bullet Proof Vests)
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:25:16 GMT

Well, you've always got the good-'ol x-ray laser.

This could be made portable, and it packs a hell of a punch.

Unfortunatly, as it is "powered" by a nuclear explosion, it also
tends to be single shot.  ( a buncha different rays, in different
directions, but you only get to fire it once...)

Now, on to a RealGunRelated question.  I have been sniffing around at
getting a laser sight. However, since they are red, I'm shying away from
it.  Red is a bad color for night use.  I'd prefer green or yellow...
Unfortunatly, the diodes that they use only come in red/infared.

But! Has anyone heard anything about new colors coming out?

Note: I'm probably just going to stick with putting nite-sights in,
so I'm not too concerned, but if someone came out with a nice
400nm or so laser sight, I might consider it...

--Seth
From: keeshu@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Kees Huyser)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: to moderate or not to moderate
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:26:51 GMT
Organization: the National Institute for Nuclear Physics and High Energy Physics; the Netherlands

Jim,

I think you are doing a fine job as moderator of rec.guns. Keep it up.
I am a religious reader of this group, even though I almost nver post, 
since I don't have that much to say. The level of technical expertise
in this group is high enough to make it interesting for a reader such
as me. The only "gripe" I have is the constantly recurring discussion
over which is better, the Glock or the SIG. A FAQ.rec.guns with some
information on the merits of these particular guns would be in order,
I think. Maybe even a rec.guns.glock_or_sig.moderated :-)

Anyway, don't let people like Mr. Klausner get you down.
Please continue as before.

--kees
-- 
* Kees Huyser   	(System Adminstrator and resident Macintosh Guru )  *
* internet: keeshu@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl		 AppleLink: HOL0397 *
* The National Institute for Nuclear Physics and High-Energy Physics, CSG/K *
* P.O.Box 4395,  1009 AJ Amsterdam,  The Netherlands,    phone:+31205922132 *
From: brian@53iss6.waterloo.NCR.COM (Brian W. Gamble)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Barrel break-in
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:38:46 GMT
Organization: Imaging Systems Division, NCR Corp, Waterloo, Ont., CANADA


In article <7860@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
#
#A while back I read on here somebody's recommendations for a new barrel
#break-in "ritual."  It required, among other stuff, some "Brobst JB
#Paste" and some "Ed's Red."
#
#Was this an obsolete procedure, perhaps?  Are there equivalents I could
#obtain today?  Or is there someplace special you have to go to get this
#stuff other than your local dealers?

The JB Paste can be had from Brownells [name and adress are of course in
our FAQ :-( ]. Ed's Red I have had no luck finding. Perhaps the original
poster could cough up some more details?


Anybody got a definitive article on how to hand lap bores? In particular,
the differences in procedure between rifles and handguns? A pointer to
a published text would be fine - it's time to upgrade my library.

--
 Brian W. Gamble,                             Brian.W.Gamble@Waterloo.NCR.COM
 NCR Canada Ltd.                                   Information Products Group
 E&M Waterloo                    Charter Member -- The ShoeString Racing Team
From: mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <9211062117.aa09242@s.s.ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#Those small propane tanks are nice. Merely place a
#road flare appx. 6" from it, go about 50 yards (minimum) away,
#and kablam! :)
#
# *** WARNING, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS ***
# I am not responsible, blah blah blah etc etc etc, 
#
#

I saw somebody in the desert place a propane bottle in a puddle of gas.  He
then lit the gas on fire, backed up about 50 yards, and shot it with a rifle.
I ran for cover and was able to turn around in time to see the fireball it
produced.  I don't lack what it takes to do this (brains).  In case anybody
else has thought about trying this, don't, it looks like a bad idea.  Someone's
trailer did get hit by the shrapnel.

Michael
From: flb@sequent.com (Frank L. Berry)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:19 GMT
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.


	I like your style and your efforts.
	I vote to keep it like it is.

	ben is welcome to start and alt group,
	but I won't be reading it.

		Frank Berry  (flb@sequent.com)
From: aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:01:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: ariel.13NOV199212263462
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

I like the group in its present moderated form.  As evidenced by Jim's post, 
there are a few people out there who can't understand the fact that some of 
us consider the shooting sports a hobby, and we like to talk about some 
of the technical details in an unobstructed manner.  As others have said, if 
this group was not moderated, it would quickly degenerate into another tpg 
newsgroup.

I don't mind the moderator's editorial comments -- I just take them with a 
grain of salt :-).

However, I do tire of the recurring Glock vs. Sig vs. Beretta thread :-).

******************************************************************************
| Bob Porro                    || (The opinions expressed here are not       |
| aeporro@venus.lerc.nasa.gov  ||  necessarily those of the management ?\*!) |
|                              ||                                            |
******************************************************************************
From: anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self-Defense Loads-->Pistols (was Re: I picked PPK/S...)...
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:00:03 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <8926@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:
# 
# In article <Bx3sEK.MtE@cs.psu.edu> drj@dev-null.phys.psu.edu (Dan Jeuch) writes:
# ##I've got a couple of questions:
# ##
# ##     What is the best defense load for a .380?
# #
# #I'd like to know the answer to this question too.  My girlfriend carries
# #a Walther PPK/S and I've got a SIG P230 as my own carry.  Currently we've
# #got 80 grain hollow points for carry, but I wonder is something else
# #might be better?  (Personally, I'd rather carry my Taurus PT-99AF, but it's
# #a bit large...)
# 
# I'm wondering what the best defense load is for a 9mm...someone may as well
# respond to both.

It's one of those unanswerable questions.  No one is really able to prove that
they have the "best defense" round, but the current debate in 9mm seems to be
between the 147 grain subsonics and the 115 grain +p (hollowpoints, of course).

I'm starting to see articles in the law enforcement magazines (law and order
and police) that the 147 grain rounds may not be nearly as effective as once
thought.  
 
Personally, I don't know which to believe, but I'm opting for the 115 grain
ammo.
 
Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program

# 
# Nathan
# 
# <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       G  O       H  O  U  S  T  O  N 
# <<      Nathan A. Horstman      >>  OOOO  IIIIII LL     EEEEEE RRRRR   SSSS  ||
# <<   University of Pittsburgh   >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR  RR SS     ||
# << in%"nahst6@vms.cis.pitt.edu" >> OO  OO   II   LL     EEEE   RRRRR   SSSS  ||
# <<      nahst6+@pitt.edu        >> OO  OO   II   LL     EE     RR RR      SS ||
# <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OOOO  IIIIII LLLLLL EEEEEE RR  RR  SSSS  oo
#
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Introducing New Shooters to the Sport (Part II)
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:18 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

#Both displayed admirable gun safety, the only near glitch being her reaction
#to the first shot she made with the .22:  she stumbled back in astonishment
#and the barrel started coming around towards me.  Fortunately, I was standing
#quite close and was able to keep the pistol pointed downrange.

New shooters should ALWAYS be instructed to load a single round in the gun
for the first few shots...if someone has an "astonishment" reaction they
may even drop the gun!!!  Proper instruction can minimize the chance of this
happening, but I want that gun EMPTY after the first shot until I am 
confident in the new shooter's ability to properly follow through on a shot.




Rob
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:52:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: porthos.1992Nov9.165658.7020
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

In article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU
(Ramin Taraz) writes:
|> 
|> After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take
|> my
|> Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
|> things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)
|> 
|> rtaraz
|> 
 Only if "YOU CLEAN UP AFTERWARDS" and police your shooting
area, don't be a slob. If you want to shoot something "neat"
collect some big plastic soda bottles and fill them with
WATER, then put the cap back on tight. Don't shoot at glass
things unless you are willing to spend the time cleaning up.
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:52:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: porthos.1992Nov9.175310.7992
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

In article <viking.721119254@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu
(Dan Sorenson) writes:
|> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
|> 
|> #	I would concentrate more on being quite wiling to blow a hole in
|> #	the bastard at the first hint of cuteness on their part, and
|> #	dispense with all speech beyond the most essential.   Get him
|> #	into an EXTREMELY poor tactical position (from his standpoint,
|> #	of course) and get yourself out of his field of vision, making
|> #	sure that he cannot spy you through reflections.
|> 
|> I hadn't really thought about it before, but what is possibly the
|> best
|> poor tactical position to put somebody in, and just how would you
|> enforce
|> your wishes?  Personally, I like the idea of spread eagle, on the
|> ground,
|> face in the dirt for a perp, but what if he doesn't obey?  I can't
|> shoot
|> the guy then, and there's no other option open to me.  If I'm
|> holding
|> a gun on a guy, I can't adjust his attitude with a club.  I've given
|> myself only one option, basically.

 We were taught to have the pow sit on his hands with his
legs crossed and if possible blind fold them, no talking
If calling the police have someone do it from another room.
Silence is good for the soul.

-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: U53734%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Wesley Bielinski)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Teflon-based lubes for sizing?
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:16:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92315.110030U53734
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I understand that I full length carbide die for bottle-neck cases would
be cost prohibitive, but why can't they bond teflon to the inside of a
normal die (they do it to pans) so that it's permanently lubed?

Wesley J. Bielinski                    | "I love my country,
SGT, USAR       U53734@uicvm.uic.edu   |   it's CLINTON I fear!"
12th Special Forces Group (Airborne)   |     Support RKBA
From: jpchou@camelot.Eng.Sun.COM (Jeff Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Problem with the Berettas?
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:01:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: exodus.9211061819.AA17877
Organization: Sun Microsystems


I am thinking about getting a Beretta 92FS (9mm) or a Beretta 96FS 
(the new .40 S&W), but I have heard that Beretta has had problems 
with their metalurgy. Something about metal fatigue or something has 
supposedly caused a couple of incidents where the slide has cracked
or actually breaks during recoil.

Has anyone heard about this?  Are these stories true?

I also heard that they have not fixed the problem.  Its been going
on for a couple of years.

Should this be a factor in my decision making process?

Does Beretta has a lifetime warranty or such policy where if it
happens, can I get it repaired or replaced?

Thanks in advance for all the info!

Jeff
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:26:56 GMT

Oh, Esteemed Moderator [TM].  I have no objections to your editorializing
and I like this newsgroup as it is.  I fear that having an unmoderated
group may result in endless political-type anti this & that flaming.
You're doing a good job - keep it up.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: explosives question
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:30:13 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:


[not really guns but since it is already started....]

##2) Same question, but for a large building complex (about 4 or 5 city blocks
##of large buildings).
##
#Definitely going to take a small nuke to do this, no question about it.
#A back pack or tactical artillery nuke ought to be able to do it (ie even
#one kiloton might be enough).

Unfortunately this kind of gross overestimation of the capabilities of
nukes has resulted in the kind of irrational fear commonly seen 
in years past.

Structural damage outside the radius of the actual fireball
(which might extend a few dozens of yards for a 1 kt device) is done
primarily by blast overpressure.  Radiant heat does, of course,
cause fires and kills humans but any structural damage is delayed and
best classified as collateral to the main blast.  Some figures for
the destruction of various types of construction:

Frame house							0.5-1 psi
Typical commercial construction		3 psi
Reenforced concrete construction	>5 psi.

#From my handy-dandy gen-u-wine government issued atomic bomb blast
computer, a 1 kt device will produce the following overpressure 
contours for a surface burst:

	Maximum Dynamic Pressure           radius
	1 psi                              0.24 mile
	3 psi                              0.17 mile
	5 psi                              0.14 mile

This is for flat, unobstructed terrain.  For typical urban terrain,
large structural damage (buildings down) would likely be limited to a block 
or two.  

A one kt device would make a large bang but it would NOT destroy even a 
significant part of a large city.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.