HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Re: China's Interests
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:40:00 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

The definetion of China's interests: the accumulation of all Chinese'
interests.

The action by ST may give the already jerpodized China's MFN a fatal final
blow. The lost of MFN will hurt millions of general Chinese' interests,
let alone the ongoing progress to a freeer merket and eventually a
modern democratic country.

It is very strange that so many CSS enjoy bashing China while China is
struggling for a modern country and making impressive progress in most
aspects of social life, and praising the freedom and democracy in former
Soviet and Eastern Europe while people there are suffering poverty of
or civil war. Roma cannot be built overnight, neither freedom and
democracy. And the approach used by ST will just get the opposite.

A fact: in modern history, no a developing country with democracy can
manage to develop to a developed country. There does exist trade off
between economic development and democracy to a developing country.

A netter mentioned Tan,Shitong. ST fled just after 6.4 and went by
with full support of untle Sam exactly when Chinese officers openly
ask for a better Sino-US relationship, just the opposite to Tan, Shitong.
What a "hero"! :-)

Yes, I share Mr.Bao's points.



William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194)
Subject: Re: Hand NBC an 8-year jail sentence
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:51:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.004003.17572@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha) writes...
>In article <BtnvxH.7Ir@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Yuan M Jiang <ymj1@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU> writes:
>>Great, Beijing Daily has finally followed IFCSS' call.
>>
>>Beijing Daily has convicted NBC for rumor muggling.
>>NBC should have not forgotten that Xiao1 Bin1 was
>>sentence for an 8 year in jail for spreading
>>rumors in the summer of 1989.  Yes, put NBC in the reform through
>>labor camp and force it to produce US-bound export goods.
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>2. Beijing Daily Rips U.S. Media's Olympic Coverage .................... 42
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>	I fully agree that NBC's insinuations about the Chinese female
>swimmers were totally unsupported and out of place. The outrage on
>the part of Chinese all over the world is justified. (I'm an American.)
> 
>	*However*, a single article weeks after the end of the Games is a 
>pathetic response. Here's what the Chinese government should have done 
>while the Olympics were still in progress:
> 
>	It should have called an international news conference, blasted
>NBC and any other news organizations who made similar accusations, and
>announced that China welcomes, in fact *demands*, year-round, random
>drug testing for Olympic athletes in *all* nations starting immediately.
> 
>	Such a response would have put to rest all doubt and embarrassed
>NBC in front of the entire world. The wimply little article whose header
>is atop my posting will be read mostly by Chinese, and the real audience
>should be Americans. You may rejoice, but the official Chinese response
>is like talking real big long after your opponent has called your mother 
>a whore and gone home untouched.
> 
>	Furthermore, the failure to challenge NBC and America on the spot 
>to year-round random tests had the unfortunate consequence of making the 
>Chinese swimmers look guilty of the charge in the eyes of (an already 
>prejudiced) many. (Please don't flame me for claiming they're guilty: I'm 
>NOT saying that.)
> 
> 
As a Chinese, I fully appreciate your suggestion, my American friend.
However, if Chinese government has to be serious about the blasting
from American News media, forgive, Chinese government would end up
doing News conference EVERY DAY. Just look at what the media is doing
on the prisidential champion, you will easily figure that out. It is 
really up to the American people to use their own brain to make the 
judgement and the US news media to discipline itself.
c.q. from MA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xpeng@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject:      Re: China's Interests
Reply-To: xpeng@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:30:06 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Here is the clue for Z.Li's misundertanding.

W.Deng wrote "It is very strange that so many CSS enjoy bashing China ..."
                                      ~~ ~~~~
If Z.Li accepts the above same distortion,  he has the problem of
seeing CCP as China, too.  It was not strange about 20 years ago.  As I said
all the Chinese kids were grow up in that way by accepting the consept that
CCP = China or even CCP > China.

If W.Deng  stick to what he wrote show people the evidence to support his
accusing of "so many CSS enjoy bashing China".

If Z.Li thinks so please help W.Deng to collect those evidence.

Whenever W.Deng could prove his accusation I would retrack my article and
offer W.Deng the appology about my misunderstanding of "so many CSS".

I really don't perceive that "so many CSS enjoy bashing China".

What I see is that so many CSS are bashing CCP and it's not strange at all in
1990's.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu)
Subject: Re: My two cents about SHEN TONG
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:39:24 GMT

In article <Bu0yLn.7AH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, Derek Hu <derekhu%spock.usc.edu@USC.EDU> writes:
|> The following is my observations and reflection on Shen Tong's arrest.
|> 
|> 1.  Shen Tong, as a Chinese citizen, has the RIGHTS entitled under the
|>     Chinese constitution, of free expression and free association.
|>     Unless there are other evidences, Shen's action is inside the boundary
|>     of the constitution.  Whether Shen planed his return, whether you and
|>     I agree or disagree with him does not change this basic fact.

Absolutely right.  

Now the question is: Does What ST did violate any law in China?
Maybe or maybe not.  None of us have any information on what he did
in China at all.  It is really tough to make judgement.

Therefore, it is still too early to rearch any conclusion on whether
ST is innocent.  One thing in China is different: there is no assumed
innocent like here in US.  This is also the same in Japan. The legal
system is different.

Dose China PB has the right to "grab" him(detain him) ?  
Yes, if PB has evidence to suspect him engaging in anti-government
actions, it does have the right to detain him for questioning.

Besides, in China, any orgnization is required to registered in PB first.
Obviously, ST did not/or had no intention do that.  That violated the law
already.

|> 2.  The Chinese goverment has the duty to protect people's basic rights.

Absolutely!  Meanwhile, even Chinese citizen also has the duty to obey all
the laws in China.  Also, any foreign powers have NO right to interfer China's
legal action/or system.


|> 3.  Unfortunately, the current leadership, many of them were directly
|>     responsible for the infamous Tiananmen Masscre, choose again to
|>     violate people's right by arresting Shen Tong. Thus put Chinese
|>     poeple's interest, such as MFN etc, into grave danger.

Also, unfortunately, some Chinese, especially some Gaodeng(higher level) hua ren(Chinese),
or PR, choose to violate the laws in China, such as Harry Wu, etc, and then seeking
so called "protection" from Uncle Sam. 

|> 6.  All neters on this netland has the right to express their
|>     opinions, including supporting or disagreeing with SHEN Tong.


Fully agree.  Also, no personal attacking, rumor making, CCP labeling,
and verb abusing should be involved in any argument.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: More on Support Wang Juntao
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:41:15 GMT

In article <Bto46z.38A@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "Ignatius Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM> writes:
>Please remember - every letter, every call will make a difference !!!
Is this an cordinated effort in and out of China to get "protection bill" 
passed?
>
>
>Ignatius Ding
>SVDC Communications


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Re:  Protest against the arresting of SHEN Tong
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:46:00 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Of course ST has the right to do what he wants. The point is should we
support his action or not. If the action by ST which has such terrible
damage on the sum of all Chinese' interests is acceptable even encouraged,
how can we call Wang, Jing-wei the traitor (Han4 Jian1)? Because helping
Japanese to control China and establishing another government in China
is also Wang, Jinwei's basic human rights, according to some netter's logic.:-)


William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: I990002%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (T. Bao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: You violate my human rights!
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:55:13 GMT
Reply-To: "T. Bao" <I990002%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Organization: Indiana University

BNN(Business Network News) News (3 Sep 92 19:15 EDT) :

A young man was arrested for taking some stuff from Kmart without payment
earlier this week.

A group of people who also had some misconducts in Kmart before gathered
together and protested to the police that they had violated the human rights
of the young man because he didn't resort violence. He didn't even carried
a knife with him. He was a nonviolence advocate.

The police said that the young man had violated the law of Kmart so they had
the obligation to punish the young man to protect the right of Kmart.

The group of people yelled at police: 'when in hell was the law passed?
We didn't vote for the law. Why should we obey the law? It's not fair!
And he is not an employee of Kmart. You have no reason to force him to
obey the stupid law even if it really exists.'

The police put him in jail with no mercy. The group of people were outraged
and held a rally in front the police station. 'No Repression', 'No Torture',
'Human Rights' and 'Release YM Immediately' were seen on the posts. They
also sent some representatives to lobby the Congress.

The story about the young man were carried as the headline news in the media.
One of the major newspapers published the young man's article written right
before his adventure in the Kmart. He was quoted as saying that the Kmart's
management was based on non-humane xxxism created by an Old Man and Kmart
should change its management system so that people can get free stuff from
it.

A small tabloid revealed that the whole event was a setup by some Kmart
oponent (Walmart?) but very few people were convinced about that. It
also said that this oponent had long targeted Kmart and wanted to destroy
it.

Some innocent people who were confused by the various news sources showed
great concern about the event. They don't really like Kmart and complained
about it now and then. They hope it will lower prices and offer better
services. Unfortunately, they don't have access to the media to express
their opinion even though they live in a free country. However, they do have
a place to talk to their folks via something called email.

People on the net were getting emotional after they started arguing about
the motivation of the young man. Conspiracy or not doesn't matter as long
as he wanted a better Kmart and it's his rights to do so, some argued.
Others thought that he was used by Walmart and it's not ethic according to
the established business codes. The debate is still going on.

How Kmart will respond to the challenge is not certain. It was reportedly
said that Kmart would put it in low profile so that its business can survive
of Walmart's agressive competition. The CEO of Kmart privately admitted
that Kmart really couldn't afford another war with Walmart.

The young man is still in custody at the moment of the dispatch of this report.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yawei@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (~{QG9p~})
Subject: Re: China's Interests
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:25:12 GMT

In article <Bu0JJx.DyJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:
[...]


Just want to remind you guys that it is useless to argue with CHINA-NT
postings on talk.politics.china - the CHINA-NT netters and the original
poster of the article you are replying to probably won't see what you
have to say.

Some one should try to set up a two way gateway between CHINA-NT and
t.p.c.

 Ya-Gui Wei

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: h1l@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Shen Tong Was Arrested in China Today
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:35:36 EDT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

   According to ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings (6:30EST), 
Shen Tong was arrested in China today. 


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: gxc15@po.CWRU.Edu (Gongzhen Cheng)
Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 20:04:47 GMT


I strongly agree with you !

Why should not we participate the construction of our motherland?
-- 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Subject:      Re: What are human rights and what are not?
Reply-To: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:29:48 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

Haosheng Zhou tried to give a simple definition of human rights, of
four items, much more complete than the one given by the GaoGan.

However, the definition has been given in UN Declaration of Dec. 10, 1948,
and the most of people in this world seem accepting that. So I don't
think we need to redefine it. If you need a UN. Human Right Q/A, anyone
is welcome to wrote to: Center for Human Rights, UN office at Geneva,
8-14 avenue de la paix, 1211 Geneva 10, Switzerland.

I suggest every GaoGan gets a copy.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194)
Subject: Re:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:33:00 GMT

In article <BtxuGL.Cwz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, JUENKUNG@RAMOTH.USC.EDU writes...
>	I've just been informed that CCP has started to spread rumors about
>Shen's arrest, one of the rumors is "Shen want to get famous"!

Now how did you get this information? DId somebody from CCP HQ tell you
about this?
If I was in CCP HQ, I would be terribly embarrased by ShenTong's Coming
Back and by haveing to arrest him. Shen Tong went back to China just on
time to embarrase CCP and CCP had no choice but to arrest him unless he
kept quiet and just visit family without doing any thing else. That is
why CCP waited almost a month. CCP is in a very very terrible position
at this moment for sure. It must being struggling to find a way out.
I am waiting to see a public annoucement and I believe the Shen will be
relieved and forced to come back to the States in a matter of Months.
c.q.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Yuan M Jiang <ymj1@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Protest in San Francisco and Shen Tong's "set-up"
Reply-To: Yuan M Jiang <ymj1@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:41:09 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu, zhang@BUAST7.BU.EDU

Since T. Bao think Shen Tong was to defeat Bush for presidency
when he planned his action, did William Deng, the first to
lead the demonstration in Dec. 1986, plan to destroy Hu YaoBang's
political career?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: liu9yong@athena.mit.edu ()
Subject: Re: Forwarding: SHEN Tong's Human Rights
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:36:16 GMT

In article <Btz4yv.7E4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> Bo Xiong <xiong@BSU-CS.BSU.EDU> writes:
>The following was posted to talk.politics.china but not china-nt:
>
>(I know this forwarding will go back to talk.politics.china, but it's
> not my fault :-)
>
>------------------------- Forwarding Begins -----------------------------
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
>From: xc17@quads.uchicago.edu (xiaoyong  chai)
>Subject: Shameful Speculations
>Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:19:35 GMT
>
> I finaly saw some sensible posts on this group about Shen Tong's arrest. I
>did think we would see no sympathy to Shen in this group.
>
> A question to all those who seem to have a problem with Shen Tong's plan and
>"setup", do you believe that it is Shen's fundemantal human right to do
>what he has done. It is well caculated allright, so what,

funny! Don't you guys still remember that guy who when interviewed, claimed
his favorite two fundamental [speaking] rights are "fuck you" and "so what"?
and whose favorite [eating] right "cheese"?

These things just poped into my mind when I read your note.

To be honest, what's the positive impact Shen Tong's act (note, ACT) will have
on the bettering of China and Chinese?
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re:      Re: someone who sounds funny
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:20:10 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Sep3.142016.25398@athena.mit.edu> zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
>|> I doubt Shen has motivation and ability to do that. I'd rather think
>|> he was trying to push for co-existence of Chinese people with different
>|> political opinions and different views toward things (such as 6/4 Massacre).
>|> I prefer China to become a country where different opinions (including
>|> communist opinion) can exist peacefully. I think that will make a more
>|> stable society.
>
>Well, in China, (Not stated in Constitution, though), "counter-revolution"
>is the correct name for that. Maybe "overturning" government is more
>proper there.
>
>However, there no evidence from you on his motivation right now. As for
>his ability, that doesn't matter in this case at all.  :)

I think you and me are fortunate that we are in America. Else either
me or you would be in jail, because we view things differently.

I wish you will eventually understand the meaning of peaceful co-existence.

It took me ten years to understand it. Several times in my life, I had
thought to kill somebody. I found that still, peaceful co-existence
is a better choice for my life. Your existence is the best answer to
your opponent, yet you should be tolerant enough to recognize the
existence of others.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: wangf@unixg.ubc.ca (Frank Wang)
Subject: Re: Shameful Speculations
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:46:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.161935.20977@midway.uchicago.edu> xc17@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
> I finaly saw some sensible posts on this group about Shen Tong's arrest. I
>did think we would see no sympathy to Shen in this group.
>
> A question to all those who seem to have a problem with Shen Tong's plan and 
>"setup", do you believe that it is Shen's fundemantal human right to do
>what he has done. It is well caculated allright, so what, 
>
>   He is NOT guilty, period!
>

He is right but not proper.  The students were right in 1989 action
but not proper.  

> What makes you guys so easy to forget the basic right or wrong , shame on you!
>
> I have a personal expeirence with Mr. Shen and it is an extremly unpleasant
>one. But his arrest is a different issue. It is not Shen Tong any more, it is
>any human being in that context. One should be indignated regardless what is 
>the setup.
> 
>  Sorry you guys, you are also in history, not so positive though.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Mousheng Xu <moxu@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
Reply-To: Mousheng Xu <moxu@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:54:02 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

Hello:
      Why most of CSS don't go back to our MOTHERland? As a Chinese
student overseas, surely I understand the reasons, the reasons are surely very
'reasonable', but why so many CSS overseas? Really, China is poor, not free,
hate the beauraucdracy, we want to live well, but why so few CSS think about
the strengthening and developing of the poor country? Do you think it's
reasonable? Just think, so big a country, so many CSS are overseas! I don't
think it's reasonable! We chinese!
     I love China, even I hate beauraucracy, I want to be rich, but China is my
motherland! I am very sorry to think about situation in China and the situation
of CSS at the same time.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu)
Subject: Re:      Re: someone who sounds funny
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:01:10 GMT

In article <BtynxE.Cs1@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, "NY." <yue@MOHLSUN.PHYSICS.UPENN.EDU> writes:
|> It is funny(outrageous) to see someone's reaction to Mr. Shen's arrest.
|> When Mr. Shen did not go back to China, some people called him(and others)
|> chicken. When he did go back and is facing tough punishment of CCP, some people
|> denouced him as trying to get famous. What a logic it is! I cannot help feeling
|> sad for Mr. Shen ands cannot help saying that it is a shame for some people to
|> do those shameful things.


Haha, that is simple.  Here the so-called "protection" works!

When this guy was in Beijing in 1989, he is a ordinary PRC citizen, and NOT 
protected by Uncle Sam, so after shouting some brave slogans, he byebye le.  
Through other "stupid" people have to pay all the expense...

Now, this guy is an American Citizen, and a favorite & loyal son of Uncle Sam, 
well-protected, of course, by his masters in DC.  So it is time to go...

Outrageous? No, Funny? no.  
----------

Actually, I don't care what his motivation is. The real thing is whether he violated
any laws in China.  That is the point.

Let's take a look.
The fact is:
CG/CCP didn't bother him for quite a long time, until he was going to hold a
meeting/ceremony of an orgnization, or whatever, targeting at overtune the government.

Did his action violate any laws in China?  I can not say much before I know
everything he did, but the likehood is high. Why? Since in China, or in US, 
any action aiming  at overtune the government is illegal.  Besides, in China, 
any orgnization, by law, should register itself in PB first.

Therefore, we can see even if Shen did NOT violate any law in China, he is 
definite a suspect by any means, therefore, PB has the right to "grab"  him.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re:  China's Interests
Reply-To: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:51:17 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

While I disagree with people on issues (like the MFN),
I am disgusted by people repeatedly claiming himself
as some "fighter" and always being on the right side.
Most readers of China-net can see who is fighting for
for what.  I am also disgusted by people taking his
speculations (I hope it's not his thought) as other
people's mind: a setup to get famous, people "hate me"
because they are so urgent to get "green cards" ...

I wish we can stop wasting time on such things.  There
maybe some people who has certain ambitions to just
get other people's attention and enjoy it (I can't
see any reasonable logic in some postings).  Maybe, if
nobody responds to him/her in a serious way, he/she
will stop making noise, then we can better concentrate
on the real interest of the people of China -- Shen
Tong is one of them, and he knows "where is China" (a
question posted by Mr W. Deng), since he at least knows
how to get back to there.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china