HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:26:56 GMT

In article <63440@mimsy.umd.edu> harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes:
>I am very sorry that I offended you by my angry replies to M.V.
>My concern is not with Mike, but many modern Quakers who have no
>faith in Christ, but have taken over the name of faithful Friends,
>which hurts me (and other Christians who are akin to early Friends),
>and who have no conscience about this, but rationalize it by abstractions
>and circumlocutions (of their religious experience, they say). And while

David, it seems to me that by not allowing that it is possible that Friends
can possess a vision of the inner light that may not incorporate your view
of Christ the Savior can be "true" Friends, you are denying others the
truth of their own leadings.

One of the things that always troubled me about traditional "Christian"
churches is the over-reliance on letting Jesus solve all problems and not
accepting that all of us are "sons [and daughters] of God".  Although I have
not as yet had any contact with any meetings, I have always been impressed by
the Society of Friends in that it recognized that every individual can be
guided by the Inner Light, yet not be led in the same direction, or come from
the same background or belief system.

Although I accept that Christ may have been "special" in some way, I don't
accept that Jesus is the only way to salvation.  I believe that "God" is in
all of us, and speaks to each of us in different and varying ways if we will
only listen.  I don't believe that there is only one way to see or accept
the Inner Light.  On the surface of a sphere, all paths point lead to the
starting point, but each path can be quite different.

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

Rev. Edward Mullen of the St. Edward Catholic Church in Providence, R.I., told
parishioners in July that because he believes the U.S. Supreme Court is too
strict on the separation of church and state, he would no longer permit any
government official to be prayed for in his church.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<1993Jan21.181306.16983@engage.pko.dec.com> <63642@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:02:44 GMT

In article <63642@mimsy.umd.edu> harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes:

  >|>>But as much as I might agree with Mike intellectually, I do not recognize

  Noting the three levels of quotation, I would normally just let this pass.
But being in a self-flagellatory mood I call forth another screenful, and
yet another. Gradually the level of quotation decreases. Finally, at the
bottom, I come across the 6 lines of actual content of the article.

  In my opinion there are few spiritual exercises more worthwhile and
rewarding than trimming down quotations in usenet articles to a minimum.
Surprisingly often one will find that it is quite sufficient to quote one
or two lines.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho)
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:39:17 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

>|> really?  the historical Christ said:
>|> 
>|> I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
>|> by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)
>|>
>Such a view denies the light of God to all but a small fraction of the people
>who have ever lived on this planet.  Either Jesus was misquoted on this one,
>or he meant it different than it sounds...or the words were ill-said--the idea
>seemingly espoused is unworthy of the goodness I'd like to associate with the
>person of Jesus.
>

but on what do you base those assertions?  why can't u consider that Jesus
did say those words and did mean it as it sounds?  why do u associate 
"goodness" with Jesus?  maybe the entire Sermon on the Mount was a
misquotation too.

  - sam -
From: samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho)
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:07:09 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <2420@sousa.tay.dec.com> bobbitt@school.enet.dec.com (Jody Bobbitt) writes:
>
>
>I'm sorry you're hurt.  I consider myself a Unitarian Quaker, and a
>christian (lowercase c, please), and my intent in finding my spirituality
>is not to hurt anyone.  However, how that I've found it, someone's offense
>is not going to induce me to change it....
>

i can't force u to believe as i do, for only God can convert, but let us
at least agree to not redefine words.  if the word Christian is to have
any meaning, let's stick to its historical meaning, i.e. one who confesses
with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God raised him
from the dead (Romans 10:9).

>not belong to Michael, or to me, or to anyone.  The spirituality of Christ
>is available to everyone.  Many paths lead to the light, and they don't all

really?  the historical Christ said:

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)

>
>-Jody
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jody Bobbitt			 | bobbitt@school.enet.dec.com
>				 | ...!decwrl!school.enet.dec.com!bobbitt

again, i won't force u to believe as i do, but let's be precise.

  - sam -

Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: rreid@rreid.mentorg.com (Richard Reid)
Subject: who is barclay
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:51:33 GMT
Organization: mentor
Keywords: quacker, freinds, fox, barclay
Followup-To: 

Recently, My wife and I started attending a Friends meeting.  I find it
a challenge to figure out all the new terminology, session, extended session,
yearly meeting ...etc.  I also keep hearing about a guy named barclay (spelling?).
and of course George Fox (There's a college named after him here).  

Could anyone give a breif description of these two fellas.  Why do they seem
to be revered?

Thanks


-- 
Rick Reid 		
richard_reid@fpd.mentorg.com  -- Mentor Graphics Corporation
"Clothes make the man.  Naked people have little or no influence on
society." --Mark Twain
From: thall@cs.unc.edu (Andrew Thall)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 25 Jan 1993 21:48:38 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: cezanne.cs.unc.edu

In article <1993Jan23.130709.1007@microsoft.com>, samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho) writes:
|> In article <2420@sousa.tay.dec.com> bobbitt@school.enet.dec.com (Jody Bobbitt) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >I'm sorry you're hurt.  I consider myself a Unitarian Quaker, and a
|> >christian (lowercase c, please), and my intent in finding my spirituality
|> >is not to hurt anyone.  However, how that I've found it, someone's offense
|> >is not going to induce me to change it....
|> >
|> 
|> i can't force u to believe as i do, for only God can convert, but let us
|> at least agree to not redefine words.  if the word Christian is to have
|> any meaning, let's stick to its historical meaning, i.e. one who confesses
|> with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God raised him
|> from the dead (Romans 10:9).
|> 
|> >not belong to Michael, or to me, or to anyone.  The spirituality of Christ
|> >is available to everyone.  Many paths lead to the light, and they don't all
|> 
|> really?  the historical Christ said:
|> 
|> I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
|> by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)
|>
Such a view denies the light of God to all but a small fraction of the people
who have ever lived on this planet.  Either Jesus was misquoted on this one,
or he meant it different than it sounds...or the words were ill-said--the idea
seemingly espoused is unworthy of the goodness I'd like to associate with the
person of Jesus.

Don't mean to start any religious wars, or abuse anyone's holy scriptures.
As a Jew, I admire the love of humanity taught by the Quaker faith; what's in
a person's heart is between him/her and God, but how s/he treats other people
is the mark of a good individual and a good life.

|> again, i won't force u to believe as i do, but let's be precise.
|> 
|>   - sam -
|> 

-- 
Andrew Thall 
aka thall@cs.unc.edu

Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The first flame war
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:49:45 GMT

nelson@crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) writes:

>The Quaker religion,
>with its utter lack of rituals, creeds, and other distractions, puts
>you on the spot: believe or be bored!

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  However, I think that belief alone would
not stop one from being bored in Meeting.  If one does not actively worship, I
suspect that one might well get bored.  To truly be a part of Meeting for 
Worship requires work--not merely belief.  And I don't think it makes all that
much difference in what way one images one's beliefs (no matter what certain
people who aren't Friends are saying).  It is the faithful action of worship
that draws me to greater communion with Friends and the Light.

I suspect, however, that I am not really disagreeing with Russell, merely
emphasising different things with our inadequate words.  I suspect that Russell
and I would not disagree in the Silence.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: tpa10@css.amdahl.com (Thomas P. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:17:27 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <1993Jan26.203917.23636@microsoft.com>, samk@microsoft.com (Sam Kho) writes:
|> >|> really?  the historical Christ said:
|> >|> 
|> >|> I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
|> >|> by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)
|> >|>
|> >Such a view denies the light of God to all but a small fraction of the people
|> >who have ever lived on this planet.  Either Jesus was misquoted on this one,
   /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
This premise is false, therefore you have reached a false conclusion:  a little 
later on (in the book of Hebrews) it is mentioned that when Christ died and 
descended into hell He preached the gospel to the dead!  This gave everyone who 
lived prior to his earthly incarnation an opportunity to accept or reject him.


|> >or he meant it different than it sounds...or the words were ill-said--the idea
|> >seemingly espoused is unworthy of the goodness I'd like to associate with the
|> >person of Jesus.
|> >
|> 
|> but on what do you base those assertions?  why can't u consider that Jesus
|> did say those words and did mean it as it sounds?  why do u associate 
|> "goodness" with Jesus?  maybe the entire Sermon on the Mount was a
|> misquotation too.
|> 
|>   - sam - 

The "goodness" of Jesus is relative to YOU.  If you accept him and his teachings,
then he is THE GOOD.
-- 

Tom Anderson                    |  Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam
Compatibility Software Products |     e tenebras ad luce!
tpa10@css.amdahl.com  x63115    |  - someone famous, i'm sure!
From: ewnt05@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Mealand)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Barclay
Keywords: Barclay
Date: 27 Jan 93 13:21:27 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: Edinburgh University



Robert Barclay 1648-90 a Scottish Quaker wrote a famous apology i.e. defence of
Quaker belief and practice as against other forms of belief and practice.
It is still well worth reading: clear to the point, and very informative.
Though I think the full edition is not in print, I recently bought a
paperback of extracts from it here in the U.K.

David Mealand

PS I meant to post this reply to a query but the mailer didn't send it last time
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: dan@ees1a0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Dan Schlitt)
Subject: Re: The first flame war (Actually about meeting for worship)
Organization: City College of New York
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:34:50 GMT

Very many years ago I attended a workshop at FGC on meeting for
worship.  I think that George Corbin was the leader.  I learned alot
from that workshop that has helped me to this day.  But the thing that
was brought to mind by some of the previous messages is the comment by
one woman in the workshop, a school teacher.  She said, to the
amazement of most of the other participants, that she always brought a
stack of papers to mark to meeting for worship so that she would have
something to do while she was waiting for something to happen.

/dan
-- 
Dan Schlitt                           School of Engineering Computer Systems
dan@ee-mail.engr.ccny.cuny.edu        City College of New York
(212)650-6760                         New York, NY 10031
From: mengel@dcdmwm.fnal.gov (Marc Mengel)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: quakerism, Christianity, etc
Date: 25 Jan 1993 19:53:38 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Batavia IL
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: dcdmwm.fnal.gov

In article <C1F2yt.4uE.1@cs.cmu.edu>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> Patrick Logan writes:
|>    Sam Kho writes:
|>    > the historical Christ said:
|>    >I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT
|>    >by me.  (John 14:6, emphasis mine)
|> 
|>    Isn't it futile to think that everyone interprets this the same way? These
|>    are just words, and I don't believe they were ever spoken by the historical
|>    Jesus.
|> 
|> But _why_ do you believe that? Do you have solid textual evidence for
|> it, or has it been revealed to you by your inner light, or is it
|> merely convenient to your universalist beliefs?

I am for the most part avoiding the flamage here; I think the
Society of Friends is clearly a Christian religion; but that Friends
also recognize the Truth as it is reflected in other religions; there
is that of God in everyone, and it often surfaces even when they
don't know Christ's teachings.  As to literal interpretations,
the words in most Bibles we have today have been translated a minimum
of 3 times (to Greek, to Latin, and to English), and were transcribed
after the fact, not by court recorders on site at the time.  Simple
experimentation shows that incorrectly transcribed Biblical text does
not spontaneously burst into flame or otherwise indicate its incorrectness.
So our Bibles are almost prevented from being correct in the letter of the
quotes.

On the other hand I do feel moved to make a comment on the Biblical
quotes of the form:

"I am the light, and the truth, and the Way", "No man cometh unto the Father
but by me", etc. where Jesus refers to Himself as a verb, or a method, or
a style of action. Clearly (to me)  He must mean by acting like Him and/or 
following His teachings; otherwise the sentences just plain don't make
grammatical sense.

-------
Marc Mengel
mengel@fnal.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: rached@taylor.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached)
Subject: MONITOR: soc.culture.arabic
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:44:44 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Assalamu Alaykum

In the following article the author claims that a Teenager was executed
in Saudi Arabia becasue he apostated when he was a child.?!!!

rached

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Article: 9864 of soc.culture.arabic
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Subject: Islam and apostacy
Date: 25 Jan 93 03:32:51 GMT

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:

>The moment this child rejects the the Islamic faith 
>and fails to fulfill his religious obligations, he is no longer considered a
>Muslim.  
	
	A teenaged apostate was recently executed in
	Saudi Arabia after he became an adult.
	He indeed is no longer considered a Muslim, nor
	even a human being.


>To convert, you simply approach a Muslim (people 
>typically go to the 'Emam of the nearest Mosque), express your sincere 
>desire to become a Muslim, and verbally declare your solemn belief that
>``There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.''
>That's it.  It's that simple.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	
	It may be that simple to get in, but it is not  
	that simple to get out.  Be forewarned,
	if you change your mind and abandon Islam later on,
	you may pay with your life.  Here is the relevant hadith,
	kindly translated for me by an email correspondent.

"The blood of a Muslim can only be spilt legally on one of three occasions:
a married adulterer, a soul for a soul, and he who abandons his religion
and leaves the congregation (of Muslims)."
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: massoud%chemteca@sdsu.edu (Massoud Ajami)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Is the Quran gender neutral?
Date: 24 Jan 1993 19:45:55 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
Originator: mughal@alumni.cco.caltech.edu (Asim Mughal _Moderator)
Originator: mughal@alumni


In article <1j6v6mINN8m5@life.ai.mit.edu> davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
>Subject: Is the Quran gender neutral?
>Date: 15 Jan 1993 18:19:02 GMT

>
>  I have been given to understand that references to Allah in the 
>Quran as it is written in Arabic are all gender neutral. 
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Is this correct? I do not read Arabic so I do not know if this 
>is in fact true or not.
>
Arabic language does not have gender neutral (but German language does).
You have been given the wrong impression.
>
> 	David Hatcher
>        Network Services
>        davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com
>        (503) 627-2167
--
Peace and Prosperity!
  ---==< 110 >==---


















Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
From: MUBARAK.JAMAL@mtn-home.va.gov
Subject: Re: Zakat and Education
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 16:58:53 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I received the following reply to my query about Zakat and education,
with the request that I post it to SRI.  The sender's e-mail address
is ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie.  To post on SRI through e-mail send e-mail to
soc.religion.islam-news@newsbase.cs.yale.edu
 
Wassalaam,
 
Jamal Mubarak
 
----------------------------------
 

In soc.religion.islam MUBARAK.JAMAL@MTN-HOME.VA.GOV write:

>Assalaamu alaikum,
> 
>Can some one give me a definitive answer to the question "Is Zakat
>money acceptable for use in education?"  I will appreciate it very
>much.  Please e-mail me the response since I do not have access to
>the net and I am posting by e-mail.
> 
>Wassalaam,
> 
>Jamal Mubarak
> 

In the Quran 9:60

" Alms are only for the poor and the needy, and the officials
(appointed) over them, and those whose hearts are made to
incline (to truth) and the (ransoming of) captives and those in
debts and in the way of Allah and the wayfarer; an ordinance
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Allah; and Allah is knowing, Wise."

In the way of Allah: is a very general term, however, it was interpreted
to mean Jihad. Some new scholars would accept education, hospitals, ..
etc., to be considered as in the way of Allah, if they are not meant for
profit making business. However the term education is very general also,
and to be a proper way for Zakaht it should be an education that serves
an Islamic cause.


Ahmed I. El-Habbash,
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
From: suheil@athena.mit.edu (Suheil I Laher)
Subject: Re: Interpretations of the Quran
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:53:51 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <727661933@flounder.cs.duke.edu>, as5h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Azleena Salleh) writes:
[..]
|> I think as it says in the commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali that this is
|> so because in traditional practise the woman's cultural and religious
|> status is usually lost when she marries, that is, she usually takes on
|> that of her husband's.  Perhaps someone knowledgeable can comment as to
|> whether that this rule is still applicable in cases where the woman can
|> keep her own Islamic identity?  

Firstly, I am not a 'knowledgeable' in that I have not undergone formal
training as a scholar. However, what knowledge I do have is I feel adequate
for answering the question.

The reason it is forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man is
because Allah says so in the Qur'an:
And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and
certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman,
even though she should please you; and do not give (believing
women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly
a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he
should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to
the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His
communications to men, that they may be mindful.	[2:221]
The verse does not read 'do not give muslim women in marriage to non-muslim men,
unless the women can keep their Islamic identity'. Any such ideas or thoughts can
only be conjecture seeking to find the wisdom behind the injunction of ALlah,
unless we have a clear verse of Qur'an, or authentic Hadeeth evidence which
specifies the reason for a certain order or prohibition. So, the reason for the
prohibition is that Allah has prohibited it. We may certainly try to discover
some of the wisdom of the prohibition, but any such evidence cannot become the
'reason' for the prohibition, just as we cannot justify drinking a small quantity
of wine by reasoning that the reason for prohibition of wine is that it
intoxicates. (In fact, Ahaadeeth confirm that if something intoxicates in a large
quantity, even a small quantity is unlawful).
And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman
 that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah
 and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys
 Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest
 straying.		[33:36]
Allah knows better than us - in fact Allah's knowledge is perfect, and we cannot
question the order of Allah:
He (Allah) cannot be questioned concerning what He does... [21:23]

Anything correct I wrote was by the favor of ALlah, and anything incorrect was
from my own mistakes.

And peace be upon whoever followed the Guidance.

Suheil
suheil@mit.edu

Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam