HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmeissne@carson.u.washington.edu (Loren Meissner)
Subject: Re: Episcopal/Anglican Newsgroups
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:16:24 GMT

Are there any Episcopal and/or Anglican newsgroups out there?
Is there such a thing as bit.listserv.episcopal or
bit.listserv.anglican     ?
If so, UWashington(seattle) doesn't carry them.
If these exist, please let me know so I can request them to be
added here. Thanks.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: stay or leave... opinions?
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:58:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct09.135905.35423@watson.ibm.com> dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com (Donna Nitchie) writes:
>
>
>So my course of actions seems to have three alternatives:
>1) Continue to disagree w/ some things, but also continue to actively 
>participate in the Church, and retain my claim to be RC;
>
>2) Accept EVERYTHING the RCC teaches and thus continue my standing as a RC;
>
>3) Respectfully leave the RCC, saying I can't buy EVERYTHING, so I'll join some
>other denomination that more closely fits my struggles and beliefs.
>
>(Am I leaving off any options?) Upon further thinking, perhaps there is
>4) Remain RC, but don't participate in the sacraments because I don't 
>agree with all the RCC states. But for me, that option is not acceptable,
>I don't think I would grow in my faith by excluding myself from fully
>participating... I'd go back to picking one of the above.
>
>So what do readers suggest or advise of someone in such a situation? Does 
>anyone know what the RCC suggests someone in my situation do? I haven't 
>asked a priest or bishop or (pick your favorite RC official)....
>
5) If you cannot give assent of the mind, give assent of the will, and pray
for guidance that assent of the mind will follow.  I cannot think of the
appropriate references off the top of my head.  But this is I believe
what the Catholic Church teaches one ought to do when one finds they
have a difficulty.  Also find out about the different weight of various teachings and their subject matter.  Assent of the mind may never come.


Peace,
John
From: v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (MIKE SIMPSON)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: thanks!
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:25:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

thanks to those who sent the words to the prayer to St. Michael.
No need to bother with any more e-mail.

thanks again!

mike
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: Some questions
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:56:55 GMT

bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
>> [Wayne lists his concerns]
>>
>
> [Bryan suggests trying somewhere else]

OR... you could try asking the priest at the Newman center about your
concerns.  You might just learn something.  I would suggest flat out
challenging his liturgy.

>>
>> [missing Mass=mortal sin=no communion discussion omitted]

Isn't all that is required is to make a perfect act of contrition before
communion?  and then reconcilliation soon after?  I don't think
reconcilliation is required first.

>My advice would be to find a more faithful parish rather than the Newman
>center to continue your friend's acceptance into our faith.  It is 
>important that a TRUE picture of Catholicism be provided, rather than
>a relativist-modified, questionable theology be taught. 

A bit judgemental aren't we?  Questionable doesn't equal wrong. Some
might consider your 'faithful parish' to be questionable.  It is a matter
of perspective isn't it?  One should examine all aspects before making
a decision.  That's why we have a mind and free will.

>
>Bryan D. Boyle
>Jesuit-trained and still a Catholic.

Bob

--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Expression of Faith
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:57:28 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

In article <9210161747.AA17975@Kodak.COM> gerwitz@Kodak.COM writes:
>To me, the fullest expression of my faith is the relationship I have with
>Jesus, my savior.  And what better way there is than to engage every
>opportunity to be present with him whether it be in mass, in prayer, while
>riding in my car listening to music and singing His praises.  If I can have
>the fullest relationship with Him, the it comes naturally that I will be a
>light to the world, I won't even have to work hard at it.
> | Paul F Gerwitz  WA2WPI  | SMTP: gerwitz@kodak.com                          |

Well Paul, just to define my terms.  My faith IS my relationship with
God/Jesus.  The EXPRESSION of my faith must expand beyond the church doors
after Mass is over.  My relationship with others is also part of my
relationship with Jesus.  Can't have one without the other.

What I am seeing (and this does NOT refer to your post) is that some define
the bounds of their faith by the rubrics of the Mass and the Code of
Canon Law.  That is hollow faith indeed.  They complain of the lack of
emphasis on doctrine, dogma, and that biggest stick of all, mortal sin.
Well as I see it the church is no longer going to talk down to us, like
parent to child.  We are to be treated as adults.  The problem was that
when being treated as a child (do something bad and I'll slap your hand)
we tended to act childlike (it's my toy and you can't have it=one true
faith=heaven) and very selfish children at that.  I guess they, the church
fathers, hope that as adult christians we will take a little more 
responsibility for the world and those who live in it.  There is a lot of
comfort in being sheltered and protected as a child, but not much is
expected either.  I for one do not wish to remain a child-Catholic all
my life.  I fondly remember my Catholic childhood with its Gregorian
chants, High Latin Masses at midnight with candle wax dripping on my
hands, and altar boy picnics.  But I am enjoying my faith-adulthood too,
with its arguments about kneelers and married clergy.  Will things change?
Some will, some won't.  But it is important that we keep growing, and we
can't do that unless we keep pushing the bounds of love outward.  They
aren't going to snap.

Bob


--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Pastoral vs. Authoritarian
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:48:50 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <CATHOLIC%92101423435663@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>
>The thread does highlight something I've been thinking about while
>reading some recent posts. It seems to me that our religion is one which
>is almost impossible to follow in its entirety. Some have tried, of
>course, and we call them saints. Almost everyone else fails, or never
>even really gets started.
>
>What can one do when faced with this fact? On a personal level, an
Continue trying?
>
>On an institutional level, though, it seems to me that one can deal with
>sin in either an authoritarian matter or one can deal with the fact that
>life isn't perfect and try to be more pastoral in one's approach. Let's
>look at divorce. Unlike homosexuality, here was something Jesus was very
>clear about. It is wrong.
The Church has the authority to be pastoral from the same source as
it has the authority to present clearly those failings that need]
pastoral care.  How can we expect a truly pastoral Church, if the
Church is incapable of figuring out what the problem that needs
pastoral care is?>
>When faced with unhealthy and even harmful marriage situations, the
>church could be authoritarian and just restate Jesus's words ("Whoever
>divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and
>the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery")
>or it could look for a loving and pastoral solution.
>
>It came up with the idea of annulments, and the idea is a good one. I
>have a friend who's husband took off with a woman from his office --
>after fifteen years of marriage and six kids! What is my friend to do?
>Clearly she is the injured party here. It would be ridiculous to say the
>marriage never existed, but it would be proper to recognize that the
>marriage does not now exist. Her last name is a source of pain to her. It
>reminds her daily of betrayal. Annulments -- even though everyone knows
>they're just the catholic version of divorce -- allows her to be free of
>a terrible situation and get on with her life.
Annulments say precisely that-- "that a marriage never existed."  If
they tribunal comes to the conclusion that no matter how bad the
marriage got, there was indeed a marriage, it cannot grant an 
annulment.>
Annulments are very clearly not just the catholic version of divorce.
A divorce breaks a legal contract of marriage between two people.
Annulment does not such thing, since there is not contract to be
broken when an annulment is granted.
Peace,
John
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:09:08 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Turning the Other Cheek

Edward J. Branley (elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us) quotes me:

> One of the students said we should have assassinated Hussein.  The teacher sa
> that might have been a good idea, but my daughter said no.  When asked why no
> she said, it was immoral.  The class broke out in laughter.  The teacher, aft
> a while, told the class to settle down, but never said my daughter was right.

and then says:

>Brian, you're assuming that the teacher did indeed think that the idea was
>immoral.

No, more likely I'm assuming the teacher thought it was justifyable.  Read what
I said again:  when my daughter said killing Saddam Hussein was immoral and the
class laughed, the teacher did *not* agree with my daughter.  That says either
1) the teacher believed that political assassination is justifyable or the 2)
she was, as you pointed out, afraid of being judged by her students.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Fatima: warning or prediction
Organization: University of Oregon Chemistry Stores
	<EenpIeS_NU00Rdgo9c@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com>
	<BvM9ow.Hz9@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <STEVEV.92Oct4193853@miser.uoregon.edu>
	<Bvo54G.8t2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 10 Oct 92 21:12:22

In article <Bvo54G.8t2@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen) writes:

   >There are much more important issues to think about than what's
   >going to happen to all those people who happen to have different
   >religious beliefs than you do.  I would rather see a lot of
   >people putting their effort into trying to respect other
   >people's beliefs rather than worrying about how to convert them
   >to "the truth".

	   Oh, I think I understand most of the above post now.  BTW,
   you're not Christian are you?

You may guess what you wish.  I believe that it is important to
respect the religious beliefs of others and not to discuss
religion with people of different beliefs in the tone "I know the
truth and you don't".  If they already have their own
well-developed set of beliefs you aren't going to get anywhere.
That is why I felt I had to comment; the original poster who was
worrying about what would happen to his non-Christian friends and
whether he should try to convert them was being excessively
prideful, in my opinion.
--
Steve VanDevender 	stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
"Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Opus Dei
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:01:02 GMT

While I am not a member of Opus Dei, I think we have to give them their due and
hear their side of the story. A friend who is a member gave me this address:
SCEPTER PRESS
PO Box 1270
Princeton, NJ 08542-1270

This is a publishing arm of O.D. --their catalog has many books and pamphlets 
that could be informative.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:40:55 GMT

In article <01GPZ0QCUM2AA9LR9T@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:
>There is a new sacramentary due out soon that is a new translation- ICEL,
>(referred to by Amanda) has been working on it for several years. There is a
>basic committee of theologians, liturgists and grammarians and then others
>outside the committee who make suggestions- Then, from what I remember, their
>trnslation goes to he Bishops' Committee o nthe Liturgy and thence to Rome for
>approval. Hopefully the translation will be more majestic and flowing-  One
>change that takes effect the first Sunday of Advent is at the end of the
>readings is from "This is the Word of the Lord" to "The Word of the Lord"
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  vs  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Another misguided attempt to change something that really doesn't need
changing, IMO.  Change a declarative sentence to a phrase.  Right.
Sounds natural, flowing, real.  I hope the real theologians and
doctrinally faithful in the Vatican knock that one back.  But, then what
do you expect from a committee that takes its inspiration from Bishop
Hunthausen and his ilk?  You want majesty, read the _original_ english 
translation of the Roman canon-not the one in the oregon press
disposable missal, the sacramentary of 1962...


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent)
Subject: Re:      Vassula Files
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 08:29:47 GMT

>
> I would like to recieve these files from Vassula Ryden, as I have heard
>her speak at a Marion Conference in Pittsburg(1990?)
>

me, too, please.  
email:  topcat@u.washington.edu
thanks

vince

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: bishops's authority (was: Altar girls)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:03:02 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-15311]: okeanos

In article <199210072248.AA01386@caritas.cotdazr.org> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>On Oct 7,  6:06am, noao!john_lagrue.Wgc-e@RX.XEROX.COM wrote:
>
[...]
>
>       Wrong on both counts.  While it's true that there is a very broad
>range of things that a bishop can dispense if he wishes, if I'm not
>mistaken things concerning the nature of the liturgy (such as altar
>girls) are not his to dispense, but are reserved to the Holy See.  I think
>someone quote the relevant stuff earlier; I don't have it handy.

Bishops have a proper authority that is their own by virtue of the fact
that a bishop is a successor to the Apostles.  The authority of a bishop
comes by virtue of apostolic succession and does not flow out from the Pope.
He governs his flock by his own authority and not as a papal delegate.
Furthermore, even if bishops in the West have not exercised their
proper authority out of loyalty to the Pope, this in no way lessens
that authority.

Seems to me if a bishop wants to allow girls as altar servers, that's
his perogative.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com (Donna Nitchie)
Subject: stay or leave... opinions?
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 13:59:05 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

This newsgroup has a variety of beliefs represented, so I thought I'd ask
for opinions....

A current RC (ok, it's me) has difficulty accepting EVERYTHING the RCC 
professes, eg, no intercommunion, no contraception,
role of women (altar servers to priests), RCC teachings as absolute, etc. 
Some I passively challenge, or just don't agree wtih, some I actively do 
(eg, contraception). But at the same time, there are things about the RCC
that I love and actively participate in (mass and other church services,
sacraments, groups, etc.), and get great guidance out of some Church 
teachings/beliefs.

So my course of actions seems to have three alternatives:
1) Continue to disagree w/ some things, but also continue to actively 
participate in the Church, and retain my claim to be RC;

2) Accept EVERYTHING the RCC teaches and thus continue my standing as a RC;

3) Respectfully leave the RCC, saying I can't buy EVERYTHING, so I'll join some
other denomination that more closely fits my struggles and beliefs.

(Am I leaving off any options?) Upon further thinking, perhaps there is
4) Remain RC, but don't participate in the sacraments because I don't 
agree with all the RCC states. But for me, that option is not acceptable,
I don't think I would grow in my faith by excluding myself from fully
participating... I'd go back to picking one of the above.

So what do readers suggest or advise of someone in such a situation? Does 
anyone know what the RCC suggests someone in my situation do? I haven't 
asked a priest or bishop or (pick your favorite RC official)....
From: v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (MIKE SIMPSON)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: the Church and the Holocaust
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:31:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


	In a class I am taking this semester (History and Psychology
of the Holocaust), our professor said that although the Church strongly
protested the Nazis' euthanasia program of the 1930's, they did nothing
to protest the extermination of jews during the war. Being only 21, I 
wasn't there to know for sure, but i'm wondering if this is true or not.
Anyone know?

mike
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 13:25:23 BST
From:         lukes@BU-PUB.BU.EDU
Subject:      Unsubscribe me

Please remove me from the list.  Please unsubscribe me.

This is my second attempt to remove my name from the list.  Thank you.
--
Igor Lukes				* Dept of International Relations
email:LUKES@BU-PUB.BU.EDU		* Boston University
From: topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Holding Hands
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:55:30 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


i have gone to church that do not hold hands during the "our father" prayer.
then i went to a church that do hold hands during the "our father" prayer.
i felt a sense of unity and closeness to God when we hold hands.
the priest said that holding hands is not mandatory.  if you don't feel
like holding hands, then you don't hold hands.  no one can make you.
now you may feel out of place with almost everyone else holding hands,
but that is the decision you chose and you have to live with it.
of course, you are in no way alienated from the group.

why don't we hold hands throughout mass?  it's impractical.
the "our father" prayer is the prayer that jesus taught us.
hence it is appropriate to join hands when we say this prayer.
if you don't want to, then don't.  no one is forcing you to.

vince
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:19:48 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:22:04 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Prayer Meetings

(From Becka Sutton   )

What comprises a Protestant prayer meeting?  Does this mean the style?
I have been to several quite definately protestant prayer meetings and
never found anything contarary to my faith... when I say protestant
I mean mainly Free Church attendence.  In fact in style they resemble very
closely the after Mass (And I stress after Mass The mass is very true to
the liturgy) prayer meetings sometimes held in our parish at home.  The only
 difference
that comes to mind is that we pray the Hail Mary and they don't.  Are we doing g
something wrong?
By the way what is the RCIA I don't think we have it in Britain.
God Bless,
Rebecca
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jjmckay@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim McKay)
Subject: Re: stay or leave... opinions?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:02:26 GMT

Could you send me your address on internet AND bitnet?  I've had
 a probelm sending you a reply.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:14:13 GMT


In article <9210152209.AA10076@mayo.cs.utk.edu> mayo@CS.UTK.EDU writes:
>According to the loving, orthodox, Catholic-through-and-through pastor of
>Sacred Heart Cathedral in Knoxville, Tennessee, the change at the end of
>the readings is partially to end confusion.  He says that often the reader
>holds up the book after the reading, and the people think the phrase,
>"This is the Word of the Lord" refers to the book itself rather than the
>proclaimed Word.  This man is a holy priest and I trust him.  Nonetheless,
>I would prefer that the reader stop holding up the book and leave the words
>alone.
>
>As a side note, please be slow in condemning Newman centers.  The John XXIII
>Center at the University of Tennessee is a model of orthodoxy.  Now and then
>I go to the 5:15 weekday Mass, and I *know* I have been to Church!  Perhaps
>since there are so few Catholics in East Tenn., God has seen fit to bless us
>with good priests and a spirit-filled bishop.  My heart aches when I read
>what goes on elsewhere.
>
>J. Wallace Mayo
>mayo@cs.utk.edu

     Im glad that you are so lucky! The Newman Center at Ohio State might
as well be a protestant prayer meeting. Even my not-so-orthodox-as-me
sister-in-law quit going there, after she heard "Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to God's people on earth." I asked the priest why they
omitted the creed, and he said that it was "because of sexist language."

It seems to me that this Newman center has made the removal of
gender-specific language the "central organizing principal" of their
liturgy.   :)

Karl Schudt O.R.C.
(Orthodox Roman Catholic)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re:      Homosexuality
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-8932]: okeanos
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 01:41:57 GMT

In article <199210072238.AA01362@caritas.cotdazr.org> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>On Oct 7,  1:41am, "(Sharon O'Neil)" wrote:

>                  The Church does not condemn a homosexual tendency or
>sexual preference;

Well, they don't say that the tendency/preference per se is _sinful_;
but Cardinal Ratzinger has written that homosexual tendencies are the
"sign of an objective disorder."  (sorry, the quote is 2nd hand...I
don't know where he wrote that. It was attributed to him in The New
Republic).

It's hard to tell exactly what he means by "sign of an objective
disorder," but that sounds to me like a euphemism for "they're all
sickos."

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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