From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 05:31:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23048@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Josh Backon
>
>I'm quickly trying to catch up on a meg of messages, so this will
>be brief.
>
>Let's all try to keep our cool, ok? Let's try to treat one
>another with mutual respect and friendliness, and I hope you will
>try to help me understand what the connections between religion
>and ethnicity in Israel are all about.

Wayne, I have not felt the least bit of respect from you.  All you have
shown us is an obsession with proving that Judaism is racist (on an
inappropriate newsgroup I might add).  

>I don't think I'm a stupid person, but so far I cannot make heads
>or tails of the various explanations I have seen so far, and I am
>trying my damnedest.

I really don't think you're trying to understand anything.  People ask
me questions about Judaism all the time and I try to answer them.  The
feeling I get from you is not that you want to understand, rather that
you are obsessed with what you believe to be bad points of Judaism,
Jews, and Israel.
  
>You mentioned a few converts who are prominent in Israeli life.
>(I note that two of them are wives are prominent Israelis, but we
>will let that pass.)
>
>I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
>the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
>establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
>matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
>concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.

As far as I and most other Jews are concerned, when a person converts to
Judaism, they become an "ethnic Jew".   This could be hard to
understand, so perhaps we should use another word besides ethnicity,
(not race).  I've always considered Jews to be a people or a worldwide
community.  

>Shamir was not a religious man, according to what I have read.
>Like Ben-Gurion, he may have even been an atheist. Certainly he
>wasn't an observant Jew. Like Jabotinsky, his mentor, he was a
>Jewish patriot in the ETHNIC sense, just like an Italian or
>German might be an Italian or German patriot.

And what is the problem with this?
>
>The Israeli power structure is overwhelmingly controlled by
>ethnic Jews, many of whom have no religious beliefs whatever.
>
>Is not Israel an ethnocentric state, despite the policy of
>admitting a few converts each year? 

First of all, I know of no quota that Israel follows regarding how many
converts may live in Israel.  I assume this is what you mean by
"admitting".

And don't those converts have
>to accept and submit to a system which is controlled by ethnic
>Jews, and which is dedicated to their interests and agenda?

They accept and submit to the laws of Judaism.  That's what I always
thought was the point of converting to any religion.  If they don't want
to submit to Judaism they shouldn't convert.  Seems fairly simple to me.
Would someone convert to Christianity and not want to accept and submit
to that religion?  That would be silly.

And what is this agenda you refer to?  Wouldn't they also become the
interests and agenda of the convert?
 
>If I misunderstand, please explain. Enlighten me.

I don't think any amount of enlightening will change your mind.  

Keren    

>Thanks,
>
>Wayne
>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Knights Templar Supercomputer Network
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