From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus [300 lines]
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<74970@hydra.gatech.EDU> <BxKoJq.Mqp@inews.Intel.COM> 
	<74722@hydra.gatech.EDU> <BxoCy6.K0x@inews.Intel.COM> 
	<Nov.12.03.51.21.1992.17371@geneva.rutgers.edu> 
	<Bxo9B1.J44@inews.Intel.COM> <74971@hydra.gatech.EDU>
Date: 17 Nov 1992 06:34:10 UTC

In article <74970@hydra.gatech.EDU> 
rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>I ask again, why is the JPS a better translation?  Are we supposed to
>believe that the translators of the JPS have master both Hebrew and English,
>but no one else can do this?  I ask this sincerely.
>Why is it not that the JPS translators are pointing away from Jesus
>being the reciepent of this prophecy?  You say we tilt one way, are
>you and these translators immune to this?

This has been discussed in another thread. If you'd like to bring it up
again, please do. (In a separate article)

>Paul Harvey, do you hold the OT as authoritive and say the NT is the Apostle 
>Paul's version?

Not related to this discussion.

>Now back to the subject.  The are several reverences to a coming one
>to be pierced.

In a prior post you said:
>The OT books predict a coming Savior, the a descendant of David, the seed
>of a woman (virgin birth) - one who will set the captives free and defeat
>Satan.

Now, if the best you can do is pierced, I'm afraid I'm not impressed. At
this time, most ways of being killed involved being pierced, certainly
war was all about being pierced. Besides, if piercing is the issue, I
would think this predicts the coming of Perceval, which means the one
who pierces the valley, the valley between the two opposites. And don't
forget, roma backwards is amor in Langue d'Oc and you know what Langue
d'Oc is, right?

>All of the English translations I have used the word
>pierced, with the exception of the alternate variation of Isaiah 53:5 in
>the NASB, which uses the word 'wounded.'

Well, jolly good for the NASB then, they had the guts to go against
Paulist proPAGANda.

>    Psalms 22:16 (NIV)   Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men 
>    has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 

Psalms22:17(JPS): Dogs surround me;
a pack of evil ones closes in on me,
like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.

>    Isaiah 53:5 (NIV)   But he was pierced for our transgressions, 
>    he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought 
>    us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 

Isaiah53:5(JPS): But he was wounded because of our sins,
Crushed because of our iniquities.
He bore the chastisement that made us whole,
And by his bruises we were healed.

Now, about this crushing: I don't recall any stories about Jesus being
crushed. Do you? And bruises?

>    Zechariah 12:9 (NIV)   On that day I will set out to destroy all 
>    the nations that attack Jerusalem. 
>    Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)   "And I will pour out on the house of 
>    David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and 
>    supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, 
>    and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and 
>    grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 

Zechariah12:9(JPS): In that day I will (d) all but annihilate (d) all
the nations that came up against Jerusalem. (10)But I will fill the
House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity
and compassion; and they shall lament(e) to Me about those who are slain,
wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as
over a fist-born.
d-d: For the idiom cf. Gen. 43.30; it is also attested in postbiblical Hebrew
e: Meaning of Hebrew uncertain.

>    Zechariah 13:7 (NIV)   "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, 
>    against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. 
>    "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I 
>    will turn my hand against the little ones. 

Zechariah13:7(JPS): (h) O sword!
Rouse yourself against My shepherd,
The man (i) in charge of My flock (i)
					- says the LORD of Hosts.
h: Vv. 7-9 would read well after 11.17
i-i: Meaning of Hebrew uncertain.

Strike down the shepherd
And let the flock scatter;
And I will also turn My hand
Against all the shepherd boys.
(8)Throughout the land
					- declares the LORD -
Two-thirds shall perish, shall die,
And one-third of it shall survive.
(9)That third I will put into the fire,
And I will smelt them as one smelts silver
And test them as one tests gold.
They will invoke Me by name,
And I will respond to them.
I will declare, "You are My people,"
And they will declare,
"The LORD is our God!"

> [misc NT quotes deleted]
Since the NT was written after Jesus, one would hope they would
correctly predict the history of Jesus. Unfortunately even this might be
suspect.

>|Malachi3:1(JPS): Behold, I am sending My messenger to clear the way
>|before Me, and the Lord whom you seek shall come to His Temple suddenly.
>|As for the angel of the covenant(a) that you desire, he is already
>|coming.
>|a: Apparently the messenger of the previous sentence is regarded as
>|Israel's tutelary angel.
>Apparently?

I suppose you of course know better? Nothing is suspect to you, is it?
Ignorance is strength, isn't it? Now you're going to tell me that Jesus 
is the tutelary angel of Israel.  Where does it say that?

>|This doesn't support your statement above. And your arguement that Jesus
>|fulfilled part of the expectations and the parts he didn't do he'll do
>|next time around is weak.
>He told us that he would.

Yeah, like I said, *weak*. There is more evidence for Elvis.

>|Isaiah53:5(JPS): But he was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because
>|of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by
>|his bruises we were healed.
>Same as NASB 'wounded.'  But look at the rest of the passage, there
>remarkable similarities between this and Jesus' life and death, wouldn't
>you say?

No. See above discussion regarding where Jesus gets crushed and bruised.

>|>    {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
>|>    us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 
>Jesus didn't try to excuse himself or even defend himself of the
>charges and attacks against himself.
>|>    iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
>|>    did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
>|>    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 
>He was killed - cut off from the land of the living.
>|>    his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And 
>|>    who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
>|>    land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was 
>He was buried.
>|>    stricken. {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 
>Sinless.
>|>    the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
>|>    any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
>|>    crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his 
>A guilt offering - he paid our sin debt.
>|>    life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his 
>|>    days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 
>He will rise from the dead - see the life of life after suffering.
>|>    {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
>|>    life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
>|>    will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 
>He will be great.
>|>    {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
>|>    will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
>|>    his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
>|>    For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
>|>    transgressors. 

Pathetic Paulist proPAGANda. There is better proof of the death and
resurrection of Elvis.

>|If Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God, then Jesus must be the seed of
>|God and Mary gave birth to the seed (Jesus) of God.
>Mary was the decendant of David and so of Adam, who was God's creation.
>Mary conceived and the implication there is there was no male sperm.
>The Holy Spirit caused her to conceive - Jesus was the seed of a woman.
>He was brought about by the will of God and not man (John 1:1-14) - He
>is the Son of God - God caused his birth - Jesus is male.

Let me help you out with your story here. First off, let's talk about
the reproductive process as understood at the time. It was believed that
sperm was the seed and the womb was the field, so much as wheat berries
are planted in the fertile ground and grow into wheat plants, so it was
assumed that male sperm sprouted inside the womb and became a baby.
Hence the decree against "spilling seed on the ground" since that meant
killing "potential life". So, Jesus was not the seed of a woman. God
created Jesus inside Mary just as he created Adam in Genesis. Adam is
not refered to as the son of God, so unless God's seed (assuming He has
seed) somehow got inside Mary, Jesus is not the son either. The idea of
God having a son is pagan. The idea that the son is God Himself, well
that's just crazy. The idea of a God in human form ... And you wonder
why Judaism and Islam find Paulist Christianity to be so un-Semitic.

>|>The statement is "she was found to
>|>be with child from the Holy Spirit".  This says that God is
>|>responsible for the child, but doesn't specify how.
>|It also doesn't say son of God.
>Is this close enough? (note verse 32.)

No. There is a *difference* between the King of Israel and The LORD.

>    Luke 1:26-33 (NIV)   In the sixth month, God sent the angel 
>    Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, {27} to a virgin pledged 
>    to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The 
>    virgin's name was Mary. {28} The angel went to her and said, 
>    "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 
>    {29} Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what 
>    kind of greeting this might be. {30} But the angel said to her, 
>    "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. {31} You 
>    will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give 
>    him the name Jesus. {32} He will be great and will be called the 
>    Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of 
>    his father David, {33} and he will reign over the house of Jacob 
>    forever; his kingdom will never end." 

>|>>2. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time.
>|>>	Now, in most cultures of the world, it is an insult for a son to
>|>>	claim he is his father, particularly if the father is still alive.
>|>>	Nonetheless, this is Paul's claim. 
>|>As far as I can find, Paul doesn't claim that Jesus is God.
>|Pauline Christianity does.
>Prophecy does - Jesus is the Creator - God is the Creator.  Jesus told us,
>that we are to worship God alone and Jesus recieved worship, for He is God.

Pauline Christianity does.

>|We don't know who wrote the Gospels of the New Testament. Paul may or may
>|not have written some or all, that is not important here. What's important
>|is how Paul interpreted the Bible and founded the doctrine of Western
>|Christianity, or "The One True Way to Interpret Scripture".
>Again, you are assuming that Paul was the creator and not the messenger.

And you are assuming that Paul was an infallible God. Did you ever
consider that maybe Paul got the story wrong? Sects of Christianity have
been shown to be off track before, what makes you think that Paul may
not have got the history of Jesus confused also? How can we know, not
having the recorded word of what Jesus himself said in Aramaic?

>|If Jesus is the one and only God and Jesus dies on the cross, then God dies
>|on the cross. Or Jesus isn't the one and only God. Or Jesus doesn't die.
>Jesus the man died - God did not die.

Like I said, Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph, the prophet.

>|>Certainly Paul doesn't make it.  This is moving a few centuries
>|>later than the Bible, but orthodox theology says that in Jesus we have
>|>two separate things: a normal human life, and the presence of God.
>|The presence of God is not the same as *is God*. What you are describing is
>|either an enlightened human being or a demi-God, but not the God.
>I believe orthodox theology says Jesus was fully human and fully God -
>not that he had the presence of God.  Paul tells us that Jesus humbled
>himself and was found in the form of a man.

Jesus may have humbled himself, but certainly no God ever would. Not a
Western God anyway. Are you suggesting that The LORD of the Hebrews
humbled Himself and became a man? What a pagan notion. Perhaps He also
humbled Himself once and became a coyote or a fox? Perhaps all we are is
personifications of Deity. The Lord created man in His image and in
return, man created God in his image. Which came first, man or God?
Mother, son or Deity?

>|>Thus the
>|>orthodox statement would be "Jesus as a human being dies".  God
>|How can God "experience death"? By Paulist doctrine, death is the penalty for
>|original sin. God (Jesus) is a sinner?
>God made him a guilt offering -it was planned from the beginning of the world.

God offered himself? What's that supposed to mean? How can God
"experience death?"

>|>but though his identification with the human, i.e. somewhat "indirectly".
>|Then Jesus is only God somewhat "indirectly", thus not *God*.
>He was God - and clothed himself with humanity, but he didn't cease being God.

"Clothed himself with humanity?" What are you saying exactly? Are God
and man really that alike?

>|>Theologians were very careful (probably too
>|>careful, in my view) to avoid saying that God the Father died.
>|Why? Jesus dies on the cross, right? And Jesus is God right? So, God dies on
>|the cross. Where's the problem?
>|>>	...Jesus being a son of God has the power of
>|>>	reincarnation, and so Jesus comes back to life and then goes into
>|>>	hiding somewhere.
>|>The language used by Paul and others generally says that God raised
>|>Jesus.  That is, Jesus is as mortal as the rest of us.
>|Then, Jesus is a prophet, not God.
>Jesus also told us that he, himself, would raise his body from the grave.

Like Jesus didn't need God anymore?

>|>It is God's power working through him that causes the resurrection.
>|Prophets have this kind of power, being one with God.
>Even after they are dead?

I thought you said Jesus came back to life after three days? Are you
saying Jesus is dead now?
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