HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: TIP@CORNELLC.BITNET (Mark Simon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Subject: Re: PHIL COMP
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:10:04 GMT
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I would like to side up with Robert Depin as far as the paper-and-pencil vs. se
quencer debate is concerned. We would expect as a matter of course that a novel
ist or a poet should be able to transfer his/her thoughts fluently into written
 language. Why shouldn't a composer be expected to be fluent with the basic ele
ments of his/her written language? It's just a basic tool of the trade. When I
get a musical idea I can't be bothered with pushing a lot of buttons on a machi
ne. I've lost the idea by that time. But I can jot the idea on paper in two win
ks and there it is for all time. It's so much more direct. I generally will wri
te out the basic structure for the whole piece (melody, bass line, chords, some
 counterpoint here and there) and then go to the sequencer, where I invariably
come up with many other little details which flesh out the composition and make
 it interesting.
      I have very little interest in sound for its own sake. The most important
 thing in music is structure. Whatever the basic material of the composition is
be it melodic, rhythmic or timbral, it must be shaped into an effective large-
scale structure in order for it to make any kind of emotional impact. Good soun
ds can certainly make a big difference as far as creating interest is concerned
 but it's got to take the back seat to structure. It's just like orchestration
in the world of conventional music. Neither Beethoven nor Schumann were particu
larly illustrious in the orchestration department, but Beethoven's structural
mastery was so profound that it never matters in the slightest. Schumann's orch
estral music, on the other hand, always leaves me feeling rather "ho-hum". On
the other hand, both Stravinsky and Ravel were absoulutely brilliant with the
orchestra, but Stravinsky's grasp of structure raises his music way above the
level of "pretty sounds". Listening to too much Ravel leaves me feeling about
the same way as eating too many jelly beans.
     Mike Metlay shouldn't fret too hard about a stuffed shirt like Karl Haas
not liking electronic music. Ever listen to one of his radio shows?

                            --Mark Simon
                              tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu
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Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:13:27 EST
From:         The Radio Gnome <V2002A@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PHIL COMP

On Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:07:08 PST metlay said:
>...
>For electronic music in which timbre is critical, written documentation is
>grossly insufficient.

     Check out Klaus Schulzes liner notes in the gatefold of his release 'X'
(his tenth release).  Along with the notes below is a second 'notation' area
filled with strange symbols and hieroglyphs that represent, in Schulzes mind,
all the effects, noise, envelopes and timbral changes that make up such an
essential part of his music.

>It irritates me that a lot of these
>"classical" artists insist on shackling everyone to a form of
>documentation that's out of date, and I CAN'T use my ears to hear what
>they're doing, but must rely on skills like sight-reading or
>sight-singing, admittedly useful but NOT where I want to spend my time
>practicing.

     Is the issue here really Emusic vs traditional notation?  Or should is it
be more like western classical vs all other music(s).  For example...

     While the notation system used by Bach and Mozart is adequate for
symphonies, masses, arias, or even gregorian chants, could that notation be
used to 'put down on paper' anything that doesn't hold to western scales
and ideas of tempo and tonality?  How do you notate a ney?  a didgeridoo?
a sitar or a koto... or for that matter a chapman stick or the voice of
David Hykes?  Can you notate 'Toras Dream' by the Bulgarian Womens Choir?
Were any of the following notated before performance/recording:

Glenn Branca - Music for the first 128 intervals
Terry Riley - Harp of the New Albion
Lou Harrison - La Koro Sutro

     How useful are the written systems of Indian classical, Javanese/Balinese
Gamelan or Tibetan throat singers to electronic musicians?

>>A musician makes Music, a composer CREATES Music.

     And a performer interprets the composers work, the engineers ear
determines what goes on the master tape and the stereo system must
reproduce the performance.  There are so many links in the chain.  At least
with Emusic, the composer is usually the engineer and performer as well.
This could be a bad thing or a good thing, though.  With regards to sound
reproduction, see AUDIO-L... :-)

>
>...that real composers therefore only work with pencil and paper?
>Man, I hope not.

     I would hope that every composer works with whatever makes them
comfortable.  Obviously Mike, you're uncomfortable with the tools at hand.
Newton was uncomfortable with 'traditional' math for his laws of motion so
he 'invented' calculus to suit himself.  Get the picture?  Humans are tool-
makers.  And notation is just another tool IMHO, not a dogma.  Clearly its
time we rethought the toolbox.

                      Andy Wing

"And I believe that all my imaginative work is composed during deep sleep,
 but I'm very seldom aware I'm dreaming.  For me a worse ill than blindness
 or deafness would be... sleeplessness."
 - sample from Bill Nelsons 'Chamber of Dreams'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:36:00 EDT
From:         WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU
Subject:      Re: PHIL COMP
Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU

Mark Simon writes:
[music comes from structure] and ..."Listening to too much Ravel leaves me
 feeling about
the same way as eating too many jelly beans."

I agree fully. However, many sythesists take a "post-literate" stand concerning
compositions, and claim that the sound, in incoporating the structure, is a
more complete composition, and that simple structural notation is not
comprehensive enough to include the full work of a sound composer. I can
understand the sensibilities behind this point of veiw but continue to
feel dismay at its narcissistic implications. When a composer controls
every element of the composition down to patterns that occur in the
basilar membrane (and this is what the "sound composer" does), then
music loses all vestiges of being a communication art and is nothing
but expression. This forces music to be less than what it can be.

(IMHO)
Bill Scott
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:18:00 EST
From:         rg8 <Robert_L_GIBSON@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: THRENODY
Comments: To: Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@american.edu>

>Yes, Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is by Krzysztof Penderecki and was
>written in 1960.

It's for string orchestra, and was the first piece where Penderecki used a
graphical notation for unusual sounds (i.e. bowing behind the bridge).

>   Joel, I believe you're the one who asked if I'd quit writing music if I
>didn't have synthesizers. Heck, I'd write music if all I had was a kazoo.
>Synths are more fun though.

You might think Threnody at certain moments was written for synthesizer, and
Penderecki has written large orchestra pieces using ocarinas in the woodwinds.

Bob Gibson
rg8@umail.umd.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:18:05 +0000
From:         Nick Rothwell <cassiel@CASSIEL.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Composing philosophies from a "gearhead"
Comments: To: Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@american.edu>

>but nowadays I
>see keyboards with one slider and an LCD display and I shudder to think at
>what a visually impaired musician would have to go through to program them.

I was rather taken with the synth in "Sneakers": Prophet 2000 with integral
braille display strip.

                      Nick Rothwell  |  cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
   CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance  |  cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 12:11:34 PST
From:         metlay <metlay@NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: PHIL COMP
Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@american.edu
              McMahon" at Dec 21, 92 2:59 pm

>Could you define "properly" for me? For Metlay, I know, properly means "with
>the exact same equipement because that's what can produce the proper timbres".
>For me, some of it is dependent on timbres, other stuff isn't.

By no means! If I were completely timbre-oriented, I'd have a hard time
listening to most traditional music. I merely said that music with a
strong reliance on timbre is an acceptable art among other arts.


--
mike metlay                | Today's "Context is everything" quote:
atomic city                |
p. o. box 81175            | "I want to be post-literate,
pittsburgh pa 15217-0675   |  but I've got tinnitus."
metlay@netcom.com          |                            (w. scott)
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:50:05 EDT
From:         Cloves Ferreira Junior <cfj@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject:      Help PPQN

I 'd like to know if anyone can help me with informations about PPQN or
MIDI clocks? (What is? How is organized? Where can I find articles about this?)
Thanks,
   Cloves.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 11:26:00 EST
From:         Robert Depin <DEPIN@TARGET.COM>
Subject:      Re: PHIL COMP
Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU

>Baf! Words on paper are the meat and potatoes of the poet and the
>novelist. Putting their thoughts to paper IS WHAT THEY DO. Putting
>thoughts to paper is NOT what a musician does, a musician makes MUSIC.

I think this dicussion as failed to examin music as a means of communication.
When I write or document my music I provide a method for other educated
musicains to understand my music beyond hearing it.  If they choose, they can
perform it.
        I'm not completely sold on the current notation system, but it's all
we've.  It's universal expandable, and consistent.  I personally hate music
which I can only hear.  It iterates me that alot of these "New Age" artist don't
notate their music.  Thus, I have to rely on my hear to understand how they
created the harmonies, counterpoint, etc.
        The biggest advantage to notation is for performance.  Your system
guarentees that only you can perform your music properly.  I personally like to
hear my music performed by other people and see the audience's reactions.  It
allows me to step back and become the listener.  Taped music has very little
acceptentance as a performance meduim.  This was a problem never overcome by
music concrete.  Music is both aural and visual when performed live.

A musician makes Music, a composer CREATES Music.

Bob
From: Robert_L_GIBSON@UMAIL.UMD.EDU (rg8)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.emusic-l
Subject: Re: PHIL COMP
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:00:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@american.edu>

>My apologies to Mike Metlay for bruising his extremely delicate sensibilities.
>He may remember that the original posting was soliciting people to describe
>how they compose, which is what I was doing, and I don't think I needed to be
>flamed for my effort.
>     You'd darned well better believe I'd be just as happy having live people
>play my music. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen soon or often enough.
>On the other hand, these machines we like to play with can do a lot of things
>that live musicians can never do, and make a lot of sounds that no other
instru
>ment can produce. I can't imagine being without them.
>
>                           --Mark Simon


And that's the point, isn't it?

Bob Gibson
rg8@umail.umd.edu
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 09:43:00 MET
From:         Franck HERITIER <heritier@DELTA4.FREC.BULL.FR>
Subject:      ___ ROL Format ___
Comments: To: emusic-l@auvm.bitnet
Comments: cc: heritier@frec.bull.fr

Does anyone have the details of .ROL files used by AdLib and compatible
cards on PC? I need it for my Turbo C ROL editor...
Thanx.
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Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:53:04 PST
From:         metlay <metlay@NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: THRENODY
Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@american.edu
              at Dec 23, 92 2:38 pm

>Yes, Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is by Krzysztof Penderecki and was
>written in 1960.

Thanks, Mark and Joel. This was really bugging me....

>   Joel, I believe you're the one who asked if I'd quit writing music if I
>didn't have synthesizers. Heck, I'd write music if all I had was a kazoo.
>Synths are more fun though.



--
mike metlay                | Today's "Context is everything" quote:
atomic city                |
p. o. box 81175            | "Build up valuable cultural karma points
pittsburgh pa 15217-0675   |  to be traded in later."
metlay@netcom.com          |                              (g. taylor)
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 10:22:34 -0500
From:         "Joseph D. McMahon" <xrjdm@CALVIN.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      Re: INFO on Roland for AT
Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@american.edu
              Ventikos" at Dec 29, 92 11:41:16 am

Yiannis Ventikos writes:
>
> Hello everybody. I am a brand new user of the music mailing lists and though I
> am not fresh on the net, please excuse my  FAQs. (If I shoot any). Here it is:
> I have a AT-286 at 16 Mhz with no MS Windows yet. What I am thinking about is:
> Get a SVGA (STILL IN HERCULES!!!!!), a mono monitor, Windows, a Roland SCC-1
> GS sound card, a PC-200 Midi Keybord and the Cakewalk software.
It sounds like an adequate system. You might want to consider plain old Cakewalk
*without* the Windows stuff unless you really, really want Windows. I believe
it's still available, and I think it might be a cheaper alternative (especially
if the dealer is trying to unload the "old technology" version). I've seen
Cakewalk (non-Windows) being used and it struck me as a very usable piece of
software. You might be able to shift some money from the computer to the
sound-producing engine if this seems a reasonable compromise.

> I know a lot of
> things about midi, synths etc but only theoretically, from books and
> magazines.  My musical experience is from a classical piano and I am into
> rock-jazz-blues, not excluding others...
>
Hmmm. You might be better served by looking into a used pro-level keyboard, if
you're thinking about this a the nucleus of a long-term studio. Check out the
"buying-the-first" file on castrovalva.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.33.197) FTP site.
What, particularly, are you intending to do with this system? Are you
interested in a "pocket orchestra" approach, where you pretty much use things
straight from the box, or are you interested in synthesis of your own sounds
to be used in your compositions? The GS box will limit you quite a bit if
the second is the case.

Disclaimer: I am not a PC MIDI expert. I do Macintosh when I use a computer
            with my synth at all.

 --- Joe M.
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>From: Charles Gross <moncol!gross>
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Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 18:07:47 EST
              <ADVANC-L@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         gross@MONCOL.MONMOUTH.EDU
Subject:      clsi

geac has purchased clsi. my library, Monmouth College,
has a clsi libs100 system and is currently changing to
the clsi libs 100plus system. Can anyone tell me if
geac plans to support clsi's new libs 100plus system.
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:21:55 MST
              <ADVANC-L@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      clsi

For those who may not have seen it, the latest Library Systems Newsletter
(nov 92, received here 12/18), has a lead article on whether or not
CLSI will survive.  Well, we know the answer, but the info they provide
does make clear some of the reasons.  Declining sales of new systems,
and of total customer base.  One new system sold in 91.  Number of software
development staff down from 100+ in 86, to 79 in 90, to 28 in 91.  All
seems to tell us something, doesn't it?

Although now dated in a sense, it does fill in some of the background for
interested parties.

dan

*****************************************************************************
* Dan Lester                          Bitnet:   alileste@idbsu              *
* Associate University Librarian      Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu    *
* Boise State University                                                    *
* Boise, Idaho  83725                 BSU and I have a deal: I don't speak  *
* 208-385-1234                        for them and they don't speak for me. *
*****************************************************************************
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>From: Charles Gross <moncol!gross>
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Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 09:52:26 EST
              <ADVANC-L@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         gross@MONCOL.MONMOUTH.EDU

//
database search DD=Rules
//Rules DD  *
search clsi in advanc-l
index
/*
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.advanc-l
Date:         Sun, 3 Jan 1993 15:10:00 -0500
              <ADVANC-L@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Harrison Cheung <h.cheung@GEM.GEAC.COM>
Subject:      Re: CLSI

With the acquisition of CLSI, Geac is pleased to offer a wider variety of
products to the library marketplace.  We now have two, very good 2nd-generation
products - ADVANCE and LIBS100Plus.  We are supporting both Geac and CLSI
products.  See us at the ALA Midwinter Conference in Denver - I believe there
are directors' breakfasts being scheduled to talk about the new company and to
go over the expanded product line. (Contact a project manager for date/time).

For those who will not be attending MidWinter, mailings will follow.

Harrison Cheung
Corporate Communications
Geac
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.advanc-l
Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 10:21:56 MST
              <ADVANC-L@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      clsi support

There was a recent question about what support Geac will give to their
new CLSI customers.  I'll quote below the official statement from
Mike Greenough's letter of December 4:

"This acquisition is an important demonstration of Geac's commitment
to the library market.  Geac/CLSI objectives will be to:

1.  Provide ongoing support for all its products.

2.  Protect its customers' investments in library automation.

3.  Provide a superior product at a reasonable cost.

4.  Provide a path into the future for its' customers. "


If CLSI or other customers have questions for Mike, I recommend they
call him directly at 214-490-3482.



dan

*****************************************************************************
* Dan Lester                          Bitnet:   alileste@idbsu              *
* Associate University Librarian      Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu    *
* Boise State University                                                    *
* Boise, Idaho  83725                 BSU and I have a deal: I don't speak  *
* 208-385-1234                        for them and they don't speak for me. *
*****************************************************************************
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From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Re: quartiles
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:12:45 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <2328.9212211506@atlas>, F.R.Jolliffe@GREENWICH.AC.UK (jf0zxt) writes:
> Re quartiles -
> 
> There is an argument for finding the first quartile at position n/4+1/2,
> the median at n/2+1/2 (the usual position) and the third quartile at
> position 3n/4+1/2 in my paper:
> The principle underlying quartiles - a guide for the teacher. Maths. in
> School, Nov. 1991, 20, 5, 30-32.
> 
[deletions]
> 
> (Mrs) Flavia Jolliffe
> School of Maths., Stats., and Computing,
> University of Greenwich,
> London, SE18 6PF

I havn't looked at your paper, but this definition would have a
strange consequence: if all the signs of the data were changed
the new L1 would not be minus the old L3, etc.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
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Via:      UK.AC.UKC; 22 DEC 92 11:58:15 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 11:55:10 GMT
Reply-To:     "M.F.Fuller" <mff@UKC.AC.UK>
From:         "M.F.Fuller" <mff@UKC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: quartiles

Flavia Joliffe's suggestion about percentiles does not suffer from the problem
suggested by Murray Jorgensen.

If the signs of the data are all reversed, then the observation in position i
out of N is now in position N+1-i (Numbers 1 to N would become -N to -1 for
example). So the 100P th percentile of the original set is in (ordered)
position PN+1/2 by the definition and, apart from the change of sign, equals the
observation in the (1-P)N+1/2 th position of the reversed signs set, i.e.,
the observation which is the 100(1-P) th percentile of the reversed signs set.

Mike Fuller
Canterbury Business School, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, CT2 7PE,
England. Phone +44 227 764000 x.7729; fax +44 227 761187; email mff@ukc.ac.uk
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Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 13:22:08 EST
Reply-To:     Lee Wolfle <WOLFLE@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         Lee Wolfle <WOLFLE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Thanks...

   I would like to add my thanks to those expressed by Dennis.
Thank you, Tim, for the effort you have put into maintaining
this forum.
                                  Lee Wolfle
                                  Virginia Tech
From: saleem@facl.lan.mcgill.ca (Saleem Ahamed)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Wanted: European MBA Info
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:58:07 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: McGill University

I am looking for information on two schools in Europe that offer the MBA
degree:
1) The American Graduate School of Business, Montreux, Switzerland
2) The University of Southern Europe, Monaco
I would like to know if anybody has heard of these schools and anything of
their reputation.  Obviously, I can't ask them directly, so I am relying on
everybody else for help...please respond.

Cheers,

Saleem.
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Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:19:06 +0200
Reply-To:     BOKKIE@UCTVAX.UCT.AC.ZA
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From:         BOKKIE@UCTVAX.UCT.AC.ZA
Subject:      Three cheers for EDSTAT-L!

and thanks to our list owner!

Frank Bokhorst
Psychology Dept
Univ of Cape Town
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