HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Date: 8 Jan 1993 18:47:50 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <".7-Jan-93.14:54:54.EST".*.Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@Xerox.com> Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@XEROX.COM writes:

> Re: females in THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
> 
> My problem with Niven/Pournelle, as evidenced in LUCIFER'S HAMMER and MOTE IN
> GOD'S EYE, is that they always manage to torture or torture/murder women in
> these books with a little too much loving detail. I believe I will take a miss
> on THE GRIPPING HAND.

  I disagree.  Having read ALL of Niven/Pournelle's collaborations and quite a
bit of Pournelle's solo work, I come to the conclusion that EVERYBODY tends
to buy the farm in messy fashion.  Men, women, and family pets.  The Grim 
Reaper is not sexist, nor do they seem to write it that way.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
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Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17172 rec.arts.sf.science:3991 sci.physics:22275 sci.skeptic:22169
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:59:53 GMT
Distribution: world
Back-References: <1993Jan6.214249.14902@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>

In <18342@bcars664.bnr.ca> Henry Troup wrote:
> This is one I can't figure out.  Consider a steel bar, in free space, a
> long way from anywhere, one light-year long.  place a large rocket
> against one end, and turn it on.  Let it run for 364 days.  Turn it off.
> What has happened?  Try it again with an incompressible rod - if the rod
> moves, the message reached the far end faster than light.  If the rod
> doesn't move, where'd the momentum go?
> 
> Now shrink the system to one light-second long, and run the engine in
> half second bursts.  All the same effects have to be happening.
>
> Now shrink the system to one meter and run the "engine" at 600 MHz -
> again, the same 'delay' effects are there.
 
Thank you, Mr. Troup.  This is a better way of making the point I'd been
driving at than I'd thought of.
 
> But Davis didn't really account for the Dean Drive - partly because the
> device Dean demo'd wasn't the one in the patent drawings, and he
> wouldn't let anyone closely examine his model.  Dean was a classic
> crackpot, as Harry Stine admits.  Stine did a followup article on Davis
> mechanics and some actual experiments that did have unexpected results. 
> Like a simple mechanical system with an unexplained 3 degree phase shift.

Yup.  This is the article I read, I think; that's where I got the bit
about the artillery shells.

There is real physics here that no one is following up.  It's sad.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Summary: Apologies I should have known
Date: 6 Jan 93 02:08:59 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1992Dec24.143406.17770@news.uiowa.edu> durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell) writes:
>In article <1967@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:

>>I am not aware of a single (positive) character in any of his books who
>>could not be accurately described as a WASP American. If they are not
>>WASP's then it is incidental.

>Funny you should use that as an example..._Stranger in a Strange
>Land_ has just such a character, although I forget his name.  He's
>Moslem, thinks women should be veiled, etc.

I seem to remember something like that, except that _Stranger in a
Strange Land_ is one of his books that I have never been able to
read. I have tried on numerous occasions, I have sat down with
nothing else to do but I have never been able to get anywhere with
it. As one of his characters (in _Number of the Beast_, almost as
bad) says of _SiaSL_ 'it is amazing what some authors will do for
money'. It is one of the few things that reconciles me to the man.
Anyway, I am sorry about that slip it is just that his books always
have the one thing that annoys me the most - everyone is an American
even if they are not. This may well be a National trait as it seems
beyond belief to Holywood that anyone could have ever (or will ever)
behave differently. Look at the piece of TV trash 'Charlington Cross'
(or something like that) that has hit our screens. I feel like sueing
for libelling at least a few of my ancestors, it's a '91210 in the Dark
Ages' show. This is one of my frequent rants and before it gets out of
hand I am going to object to New Agers as well. It isn't bad enough that
they were all Cleopatra, they are never Chinese as well. Considering that
the majority of people ever born were Chinese I find this hard to believe
(to put it mildly) and even when they weren't Irish peasants or whatever
their pityful, whinging, middle class obsessions with sex, sexism and
freedom seem to be all that they ever thought about in the 3rd Century.


Joseph Askew


-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell (was: Re: Political Correctness + Sci-fi)
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:22:39 GMT

In <user-090193222946@hf-mac16.uio.no> PC Jorgensen wrote:
> His "no sex"-stand might be explained as a means of avoiding the sleaze that 
> (some)publishers probably would like him to print [it always sells well,
>  y'know].

Sigh.  Another common misconception...

Campbell himself had nothing in particular against sexual content.  For
many years, he was stuck with a termagant named Kay Tarrant (publisher's
relative, or something, I forget the details) who blue-pencilled anything
that even hinted at sex.  Occasionally JWC and an author mischievously
conspired to sneak a "dirty joke" past her; in one famous case (I believe the
author was Ross Rocklynne) he succeeded.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: edgar@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Gerald Edgar)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Xenocide Sequel? SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!
Date: 7 Jan 1993 15:01:16 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Dept. of Math.
NNTP-Posting-Host: function.mps.ohio-state.edu

In article <Sf5gs*5U0@prolix.apana.org.au> dac@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
*if Jane could evolve once

Didn't Jane result from the buggers' attempts to contact Ender during
the war?

--
  Gerald A. Edgar                Internet:  edgar@mps.ohio-state.edu
  Department of Mathematics      Bitnet:    EDGAR@OHSTPY
  The Ohio State University      telephone: 614-292-0395 (Office)
  Columbus, OH 43210             -292-4975 (Math. Dept.) -292-1479 (Dept. Fax)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:02:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.173644.2941@infodev.cam.ac.uk> SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk writes:
>In article <6289@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at> mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner) writes:
>>From article <C0K1qL.D1w@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, by jroberts@morpheus.UWaterloo.ca (J. P. Robertson):
>>> Puppeteers repropduce in a rather complex fashion, as I recall.  I think
>>> it was in Ringworld Engineers we learn that there are three sexes, one
>>> of which is non-sentient.  Call the two sentients male and female.  
>>
>>Wasn't the hindmost female?
>>
>The sentient pupeteers describe themselves as "male," refering to the
>non-sentient hosts as "female," hence have egg-producing and sperm-
>producing males (I'm not at all convinced by the biological liklihhood
>of this, but never mind).  

Not at all implausible. Remember, the Hindmost says that the "females"
contribute nothing genetically to the offspring, and that "females"
actually mate among themselves to produce other "females". This means
that the "females" must be considered another species altogether. The
sentient puppeteers implant an embryo in the "female", which grows
there as a parasite. This is done by many species on earth (e.g. many
wasps lay eggs in living animals, which act as a food source for the
baby wasps). Perhaps the puppeteers just have a more refined version
of this, where they lay implant the embryo in the "female"'s womb.

Don't think of it as trisexual reproduction; think of it as two sexes,
with the children parasitizing another species.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: dac@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Xenocide Sequel? SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 14:44:07 GMT
 <1993Jan6.092912.21804@mfltd.co.uk> <1993Jan6.100145.26564@bnr.uk> <Sf5gs*5U0@prolix.apana.org.au>
 <C0JuHA.K0o@panix.com>
Organization: More like Dis~, really.
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00

In article <C0JuHA.K0o@panix.com>, Patrick Nielsen-Hayden writes:

> Oh boy!  Can I join this bet?  By the way, you lose.  <g>

Oops.

Bets off. :-)

Dac
--
dac@prolix.apana.org.au              David Andrew Clayton.           // _| _  _
dac@prolix.sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au      Canberra, Australia           \X/ (_](_](_
                    <Using ARN on an Amiga 4000. Yay!>
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Ambiguous Covers
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 04:13:26 GMT

smb@research.att.com (Steven Bellovin) writes:

>I have a Niven book that has a cover depicting a story from a different
>Niven book.  The title of either escapes me at the moment; however,
>the story shown on the cover was the one where Nessus kicked the
>Kzin captain.

I gotta see this cover!  BTW, the story is _The Soft Weapon_.
From: dshelton@galaxy.gov.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:14:51 -0800
Organization: BC Systems Corporation

In article <1993Jan6.233922.10256@math.ucla.edu>, troly@redwood.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly) writes:
> In article <1ien73INNcjd@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>>In article <1993Jan6.030621.3615@math.ucla.edu>  
>>troly@redwood.math.ucla.edu (Bret Jolly) writes:
>>>     The Campbell Revolution, we are told, heralded a
>>> new age of artistic excellence.  Where is this
>>> excellence?  Off the top of my head, in no particular


The JWC thread must be coming off a pretty large spool. I don't feel qualified
to join you fellows in the stratosphere but I did read Astounding religiously
through the '50s and 60s and it's great to hear about the Dean drive again. To
come to the point - are any of the JWC fans out there interested in the source
material? I have almost all the Astounding/Analog magzines through the 50s, 60s
and most of the 70s and have a line on the 40s. Anyone interested in buying?
I'd like to sell.

Dave
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: an4198@anon.penet.fi (Jack Coyote)
Subject: Re: Jack the Bodiless: Who is Fury
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:52:42 GMT

]petert@deneb.aosg.gsf.dec.com (Peter Thompson) writes:
]
]	dweissman@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (WiseGuy) writes:
]	|> 
]	|> Any thoughts on who Fury is?
]	|> 
]	|> I can think of only 3 people it could be:
]	|> Denis Remillard
]	|> Paul Remillard
]	|> Marc Remillard
]	|> 
]
]Don't see why these are the only possibilities to present themselves.  Others
]were certainly present also.  I discount Marc and Denis, as they were 
]aware of Fury at the onset.  Don't know about Paul (being Fury that is).  
]Somehow, I think there's a good possibility it is one of the woman.
]Don't remember names or have the book in front of me, but I suspected
]the, ah, spinster sister.  The fact that she was off planet sheparding
]Marc at the time of one of the attacks in no one diminishes this belief!


  Just finished re-reading Many-Colored Land through Jack the Bodiless ( it's
xmas break ), so I thought I'd throw in my $.25 (US) (inflation).


  Recalling that the person possessed by Fury need not even be aware of this
fact, Marc & Denis need not be in the clear.  I would clear Paul because he was
in the presence of several operants during the first attack on Davy MacGregor's
wife (Margaret Straythorn ? I forget already).  "This clears him?" you ask? I
would think that those present would have noticed if Paul were engaged in some
heavy brainwork (such as supervising Hydra).

  My prime suspect is Denis.

 1> Denis was the leader of the metaconcert to contact Victor -- he was
    practically begging to be invaded.

 2> Denis was NEVER off-planet when Fury was on-planet, and vice versa.

 3> Denis was profoundly worried about Marc's safety during Gordon's attempt
    on Marc's life -- from my reading, more upset than simple familial concern.

 4> Circumstantial but in my opinion clinching, Denis Remillard is the only
    member of the clan who will die between 'now' and the Metapsychic Rebellion.

 (And Rogi calls him a 'Martyr for the Milieu' somewhere in Intervention)

  Other point of interest -- Marc's listed death-year == year in which Rogi
is writing these memoirs.  One suspects

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS


 that the 'Atoning Unifex' will feel that his work is done soon.



				 	Auf Wiederlesen,

					  Jack Coyote
					  Paramount Grand Master Procrastinator
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From:  (David Ingham)
Subject: Donaldson: was Amber
Organization: Beer R Us
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:52:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written

In article <1600@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
wrote:
> 
> 	But, then, you're the same man who said that he hadn't seen a
> single piece of good fantasy since Tolkien. I felt that the Covenant
> Trilogies were original as hell, and that Mordant's Need was magnificent.
> (Both by S.R. Donaldson, but I don't like his latest...).
> 

What don't you like about the Gap series? So far I think its pretty good.

> 
>                                  Sea Wasp
>                                    /^\
>                                    ;;;

*************************************************
* David Ingham  *   Place wacky signature here  *
*************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: frank@fnbc.com (Frank Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:39:04 GMT

In article <C0pCHL.HCn@math.uwaterloo.ca> gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy  
Middleton) writes:
> In article <76225@apple.apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)  
writes:
> > 
> > Publishers publish what readers buy. 
> 
> And readers buy what publishers publish.
> 
> What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's a classic Darwinian cycle.  Publishers notice that the Xanth books sell  
better than John Crowley.  (Apologies to Xanth lovers and Crowley haters;  
substitute your own names.)  Publishers publish more Xanth, especially since  
Piers Anthony is much more prolific than Crowley.

Meanwhile, readers who got through _Little, Big_ and liked it are looking for  
more.  They can't find it.  They decide to pick up a Xanth book instead.  Xanth  
sells even more ...

By the time Crowley is ready with the second part of his tetrology, Xanth gets  
the big advertising posters (it being a big moneymaker).  Crowley's book is  
quietly slipped into the bookshelves, spine forward.

He who breeds faster and attracts more mates (er, readers) wins.

--
Frank Mitchell,	Business Systems Analyst, First National Bank of Chicago
email:frank@fnbc.com (NeXTmail)

"'I am that merry wanderer of the night'?  I am that giggling, dangerous,  
totally bloody psychotic menace to life and limb, more like it."
-- Peaseblossom, _Sandman_ #19
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:28:32 GMT

In article <7JAN93.14430598@wums.wustl.edu> w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu writes:
> I mean, certainly the culture of the novel was very male-centered,
> but a reason is given for the regression of society in this
> fashion.  Namely, the protection of the fertile woman in a 
> society where there are merely several thousand individuals
> on an entire planet!  Personally, I find this to be a very
> likely shift in culture given the circumstances.

A couple of people have mentioned this.  Maybe this is spelled out in
MOTE, but if it was in TGH I missed it.  Had it been spelled out, some
of my objections would have been withdrawn.  As it stood, however, it
just seemed as if the authors decided to pattern their society after
that of the United States in the 1950s.  One of the things I look for
in a novel is some indication of what came before--why the society, the
characters, and the philosophies are what they are.  I didn't find that
here, and if one must read the previous novel to find it, then this
should have been issued as part of a set and not a stand-alone.  (As
you might guess, I have a thing about books in series that don't stand
on their own.  YMMV.)

So I would be curious to hear from more people who have remember MOTE,
and ask what they think of TGH.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
From: David.Dyer-bennet@f0.n1246.z0.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Heinlein - Politically Correct?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 12:36:20 -0600

 MS> Since all ship crew members were female, it could be that they simply
 MS> were automatically assigned to the navy instead of the MI (I seem to
 MS> recall that one was not completely free to choose where one would end
 MS> up, but also that this distinction was quite clear and known to
 MS> everyone in the book).

Juan Rico wanted to be a pilot, and listed all the space navy jobs ahead of any
army jobs on his form.  So if jobs on ships are restricted to women, it's being
done "fraudulently" in that others are allowed to apply, but are quietly
excluded (since I don't believe any more than anybody else here does that ALL
women have better reflexes than the BEST men, for example).

I suspect that the actual face-to-face combat jobs were simply reserved for men,
though I don't recall it saying so anywhere.  Which I think is clearly a
"glitch", but since military systems have worked that way essentially
universally in the modern world, it's not unreasonable to have it carry forward
into that world given how the government there evolved.
From: tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 03:31:21 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: coyoacan.sw.stratus.com

In article <1ig58rINNsnd@agate.berkeley.edu>, chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien) writes:
> Has anyone read any of Pier's Anthony novels which aren't part of a
> series, like _Firefly_ or _Ghost_?

Yes. Basically Anthony is a competent s-f/fantasy writer, and if you read
every 12th book he writes (and aren't expecting literature), you're likely
to be reasonably happy. The real problem with him is that he recycles his
stuff ad nauseum. Even Greenpeace doesn't advocate that much recycling :-)

-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: matt@physics2.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:07:00
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
	<MATT.93Jan8095814@physics2.berkeley.edu>
	<1k4XR9#2j5OSg5Y9hOw6z455W8JLD9B=esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
	<-w_3q0@rpi.edu>
Reply-To: matt@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics2.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu's message of Sun, 10 Jan 1993 12:57:39 GMT

In article <-w_3q0@rpi.edu> kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:

> Whether jewelry for
> men was common outside the military in the ST setting is moot; we don't see
> enough of the civilian world to tell. 

Actually, we do.  Rico said that he (as a civilian high-schooler)
always wore jewelry when he went out on dates.  He also said that he
didn't have pierced ears because his mother didn't approve of them for
boys; by implication, it was common for other young men in his society
to have pierced ears.

Yes, it certainly is true that his society isn't 100% identical to
white American society of the 1950s---but it's awfully similar.  Which
people does Rico think of as his relatives?  What is his relationship
to his father and mother like?  What role in society does his father
have by virtue of owning a business?  How do high school boys and
girls relate to each other?  What kinds of activities are considered
recreation?  

Rico's society is much more similar to 20th century American society
than it is, say, to 18th century French society, or 20th century
Filipino society; in fact, it is even possible to date Starship
Troopers by virtue of the fact that Rico's society resembles America
of the 1950s more closely than it does America of the 1990s, or the
1930s!

Heinlein wasn't a sloppy writer, and I don't think that this was
accidental.  I think he was making a deliberate point by writing about
a character who was neither white nor American, but who so closely
resembled 20th century white Americans that a careless reader could
fail to notice that he wasn't one.  It's perhaps not a very profound
point, but maybe when Heinlein wrote the book it needed to be made;
maybe it still does.

I just don't think that the society portrayed is very realistic,
that's all.  I don't believe that the world will ever become so
homogeneous that it will be impossible to tell people of one society
from people of another.  I also don't believe that, out of all the
different ways that people have related to each other, and all the
other different ways that are possible, the entire world will adopt
American culture in toto.
--
Matthew Austern                   Just keep yelling until you attract a
(510) 644-2618                    crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a
austern@lbl.bitnet                faction, an army!  If you don't have any
matt@physics.berkeley.edu         solutions, become a part of the problem!