HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Date: 14 Sep 1992 02:03:12 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <1992Sep3.203559.1454@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> gmclucki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gemma McLuckie) writes:
>How many of you have direct connections to the Civil War through relatives?

One of my great-grandfathers lived in Lafayette, GA, just a few miles
south of the Chickamauga Battlefield.  He was only about 14 when the
war broke out, but his older brothers Chris and Emmett did join the
Confederate army.  This family has 3 stories about the Civil War days.

First, when the Union army marched by the house, Grandma McSpadden took
the silver ware and buried it in a teapot in the woods, so it wouldn't get
stolen.

Second, my g-grandfather James Oliver McSpadden, as I said, was rather young,
so it was only later that he decided to join up (probably against the
advice of his parents).  His mother made a suitable suit of clothes for a
uniform for him, and he set off down the road where he knew the CS troops
were likely to come by.  As he waited for the troops to arrive, he begam
to have second-thoughts, and finally concluded that he was too young to be
in the war.  So he headed back home.  However, about that time, the CS 
troops rounded the bend. He knew that if they saw him in uniform he
would pretty much be forced to join up, so he jumped behind a hollow log
and hid there until the Rebels passed by.  Then he continued home where he
spent the rest of the war.

Third, James' elder brothers were both in the CS Army.  One (Emmett) got
sick, and the other (Chris) was furloughed to take the sick brother home.
By this time, their home was probably behind Union lines-- it was certainly
in the grip of Unionist guerrillas.  The Unionists found out that the two
Rebels were in the vicinity and went after them and "bushwhacked" them.  
Both were killed, though they were able to defend themselves by killing 
a bushwhacker before meeting their own deaths.
--
Justin M. Sanders    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance"
Dept. of Physics        --last words of Gen. John Sedgwick
Kansas State Univ.
Xref: sparky alt.war.civil.usa:1110 alt.appalachian:688
From: takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa,alt.appalachian
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Date: 9 Sep 92 04:08:00 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep4.151849.20159@tss.com>, burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes...
>I would guess that Peyton Burns joing the Confederacy for reasons similar
>to most others in that day.  Most people fought not for slavery, but for
>states rights.  The south believed that they were being taken advantage of
>by the industrialized northern states and were fighting for their right to
>withdraw from a union they had voluntarily joined.  Slavery was a periferal
>issue.
Don't confuse why a war was fought with why a man fought in it.  The motives
of the Confederate leaders had everything to do with slavery.  What makes
soldiers fight can be any number of reasons unrelated to the war's objective:
conscription, propaganda, honor, duty, fear of cowardice, reaction to the
enemy's misdeeds.  Once the Union army started wrecking homes and farms, no
more reason was needed.

Toby Koosman
University of Tennessee   Knoxville, Tennessee  USA
Internet: koosman@utkvx.utk.edu     Bitnet: koosman@utkvx
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson)
Subject: Did Union forces always outnumber CSA forces?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 14:41:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.221723.16063@bnlux1.bnl.gov> COWAN@ANL.GOV writes:
>I suppose one explanation is that the 2nd-tier states were inspired by
>the CSA sucess at Fort Sumter that they wanted to join the victorious
>cause, but I have a hard time imagining much inspiration came from a
>force of 7,000 men defeating 80-odd regulars isolated on an island. 

   Is this the only time in the war CSA forces actually outnumbered Union
forces?  I'm not trying to be flippant but after reading so many books
(and being about to finish Foote's trilogy) I can't recall Union forces
ever fighting (much less winning) a moderate or even major battle against 
a superior force.  
   Of course, Union forces, being the invaders, had to worry about 
supply lines and fight on unfamiliar ground.  Still, I find it hard to
believe that every CSA battle (and victory) was against superior forces.  
Could someone enlighten me please?  Thanks.

- Woody

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: peculiar institutions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 03:18:05 GMT

In article <009606BB.70F42D60@OCTAVO> jthoppers@OCTAVO writes:
>Question: In the opinion of my fellow group members, would the 
>elimination of slavery have caused economic chaos for the south? 
>Could planters have freed their slaves and then hired them on 
>as very poorly paid migrant workers. In considering this question 
>I recall that the Federal government offered to compensate slave 
>owners at one point, for loss in slaves as property value/income 
>producing investments.
>
I'm pretty much in agreement with Mr. Hoppers on this. IF all relevant
parties had agreed to do it, then the sharecropping system could have
been put into place without too much economic chaos, IF wage rates for
ex-slaves had been set high enough to make Southern wages competitive
with Northern ones.
   The problem I see is that the wage rates of ex-slaves are going to have
to rise considerably above the imputed wage from the price Lincoln was
offering. Assume our ex-slave is getting paid 1 dollar per day (I have
no real idea if this is an accurate figure, but if you don't like it
you can scale the final answer up/down as you like). Assuming the ex-slave
works 300 days per year (6 days per week for 50 weeks) that's a total
annual wage of $300. Assuming a discount rate of 10% (and why not?) you
get a total upfront value of about $3000. (If you prefer 5% discounting,
then it's $6000). Lincoln was only offering $900 per slave, which was
about market value for a prime field hand. The other $2100 would represent
transfers from the ex-master to the ex-slave necessary to compete with
Northern wages (which the slaveowner doesn't have to worry about).
  I don't think the South of the 1850's would have been willing to pay
this kind of transfer (Was it about 3 million slaves? If so, the total
comes to about 6 billion dollars) to the ex-slaves in the process of freeing
them. Of course, the war cost more than this, so maybe Lincoln should have
offered 3K per slave. That would have tripled the cost of his program, which
might have reduced its popularity in the North.
   I don't have any numbers on the wage rate of free blacks in the 
Reconstruction South, if anyone does they could probably redo these
calculations more accurately. I do think the problems of Jim Crow and
converting the South to an industrial society would have been less
difficult if the war hadn't taken place.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Paul Morphy and the Civil War
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:13:11 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink) writes:

>In article <1992Sep9.143959.3219@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>>Does anyone know what Paul Morphy did during the civil war? Morphy was the first
>>American to lay claim to the title of World Chess Champion. He was a youngster
>>in his teens during the war, from what I remember.

>Morphy was born in 1837, so he would have been in his mid-twenties during
>the War.  After failing to establish a legal career in New Orleans in 1861,
>he left the country.  The Dictionary of American Biography rather primly 
>notes that "During the years 1862 to 1864 he visited Havana and Paris,
>playing chess privately but, in view of the war, properly avoiding any 
>matches or public performances."  

Was that about the time he tried to get a match with Howard Stauton, the British
pretender to the chess throne?

Why did Morphy hide? As I recall he came from a very wealthy family with
extensive holdings, which he surely would have wanted to protect. I can only
surmise that he might have already commenced his ill-fated quest to compel 
Staunton to play a match. Morphy was quite the Southern gentleman, and hardly
seems the type to shun a fight.

What happened to his family during the war?

>You may also be interested to hear that the DAB describes his paternal
>grandfather as "a native of Spain, possibly a descendant of an Irish
>emigre named Murphy."

Hmm, that makes sense, considering how Spanish-speakers pronounce my name. I do
remember that in a semi-fictional biography of Morphy I read as a boy("The Chess
Players"--or some such title, it's been a long time) the Spanish family name
was given as Ormorfu or Omorfu.

I also recall that Morphy's mother was described as a Creole from Haiti. This
suggests some African heritage, although it's hard to see in the pictures I've
seen of him.
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: dickwin@sequent.com (Dick Winningstad)
Subject: Re: Civil War Daily or Bi-Daily quizes!
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 14:55:45 GMT

In article <BuGxLw.LE8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> trwagner@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Ted Wagner) writes:
>
>
>
>       Here ya go pards!  I'm posting some Civil War questions
>about every day or every other day.   With each post, I will
>also post an answer to the prior question.
>       The SOURCES for this quiz are as follows:
>
>Malone, John.  The Civil War Quiz Book.  Quill/William Marrow.
>       New York, NY.  1992
>
>Centennial Edition of The Battle of Gettysburg.  The Stackpole Company.
>       Harrisburg, PA.  1960
>
>The Civil War Battlefield Guide.  Edited by Frances H. Kennedy.  Hougton
>       and Mifflin.  Boston, MA.  1990.
>
>Mitchell, Lt. Col. Joeseph B.  Decisive Battles of the Civil War.  Fawcett
>       Premier.  New York, NY.  1955.  (20th printing, 1989).
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>       First Question:
>
>       This is an easy one folks.  I am starting a little easy
>and building up to the good and hard ones.  I had to give hard
>questions and no one gets them right.  Most of the first ones
>you will get....then again, who knows.  Anyway, I don't believe
>in giving obscure questions and defeating the purpose of a fun quiz
>any way....fun and educational that is.
>
>
>
>       QUESTION:
>
>       When did the issues concerning states' rights and the issue
>of slavery *FIRST* cause constitutional concerns and questions?
>
>Good Luck!
>
>Ted
>--
>         Swallowing your pride rarely leads to indigestion.
>         A hard thing about business is minding your own!
>-trwagner@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu   &    trwagner@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu-
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

Are we supposed to respond publicly for maximum embarassment?

My guess for quest one would be the constitutional convention in
1788-9.

dick
From: cld1@ra.msstate.edu (Charles L. Dunn)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Juneteenth Day (was Re: Secession Crisis Lit)
Date: 12 Sep 92 18:23:26 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

June 19 was the day the federal gunboat entered Galveston Harbor to enforce
emancipation.
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: peculiar institutions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:18:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.183438.25134@odin.corp.sgi.com> zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide) writes:
>
>But Steve, don't forget to figure in the costs of maintaining slaves into 
>your economic analysis. Admittedly, these people were not housed very
>well or treated to medical care, but there were some costs....humans must
>be fed and clothed (albeit minimally).

hmm. I agree with the point, but I'm not sure how to fit it into the
calculation... (thinking for a few minutes....)
Let's put it in this way. When we free the slave, the cost of maintaining
him is transferred from the ex-owner to the ex-slave. (Think of it as a non-
monetary benefit like dental care is today. If you quit your job, you have
to start paying for your own dental care.)
So the problem is to impute a value for room and board of slaves. I don't
have much idea what is going to be reasonable, but I think it's going to
be a lot less than $2100. If so, then this changes the numbers but not
the conclusion...
>
>Similarly,would the amount paid to an ex-slave working the field be less than 
>the cost of maintaining a slave? Even after instituting such (horrible and
>abusive) 
>things as a "plantation store" and the various rents that could be charged for
>the quarters? 
>
The wage could not be less than the cost of maintaining the slave, because
the ex-slave now has to maintain himself, so he won't work for less than
his costs, assuming he can move North and get Northern wages which do cover
those costs and more.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: peculiar institutions
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:01:03 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

Question: In the opinion of my fellow group members, would the 
elimination of slavery have caused economic chaos for the south? 
Could planters have freed their slaves and then hired them on 
as very poorly paid migrant workers. In considering this question 
I recall that the Federal government offered to compensate slave 
owners at one point, for loss in slaves as property value/income 
producing investments.

Caveat: I've already answered this question in my own mind (no, it 
would not have caused economic chaos. The real chaos would have been 
social), so none but the most overwhelming arguments will convince me 
otherwise. I am curious about your opinions, however.

JTHoppers
Xref: sparky alt.war.civil.usa:1065 alt.appalachian:674
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa,alt.appalachian
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:42:40 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Followup-To: alt.war.civil.usa
Distribution: usa

Union troops looking for Confederate soldiers at residences was a common 
occurance. This was expecially true in areas with a high level of raiding 
or guerilla activity. Union troopers came to Jesse James' home in Missouri 
looking for Frank James (he was riding with some of Quantrel's thugs), and when the family wouldn't tell them where Frank was, they hung their stepfather from a tree in front of the house.

The notion of the Civil War as one of gallantry and heroism is overemphasized when in fact it was as squalid, dirty and mean as any war this nation has 
ever fought. Towns were burned, homes destroyed, women and children assaulted (a large number of African-American women were raped with impunity by soldiers 
of both armies), and prisoners starved, beaten, and massacred. Some units 
had a policy of no quarter with opposing units. One of my ancestors was shot 
in his bed by a Union soldier, because he had gone home to recover from 
wounds rather than to a hospital. Because he was wounded and out of uniform 
he was "executed" as a spy.

And now that I've brought you kind readers down into the dirt, I add the 
caveat that many persons did behave gallantly in the CW, but war did not 
improve their natures, but bring forth the fine qualities they already 
possessed. The Union troops who spared your ancestor, Gemma (if I may 
address you by your first name) were such men. Happy Labor Day to everyone.

JTHoppers
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:25:27 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.012402.20390@leland.Stanford.EDU> whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.221013.1205@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> whijv2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (WHITAKER JASON) writes:
>>I was wondering if any novels have been based on the Civil War?
>>
>>Could anyone mail me or post to this group.
>>

I reccomended the short stories of Ambrose Bierce earlier. Many of his
stories have to do with the ACW and many of those are extremely
powerful. Mark Twain also wrote a book called "A Brief History of a
Campaign That Failed" about his desultory experiences as a Confederate
Soldier (he deserted and went to California after a few months).

   In the "juvenile" section, there is a book called "Across 5 Aprils"
that is appearantly very good and Richard Adams (the same guy who wrote
Watership Down) wrote a book called "Traveller" about the ACW as seen
from the POV of RE Lee's horse. (I put "juvenile" in parens because any
good children's book is equally good for adults.)

Have Fun,

Tom
From: goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Reenactment
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:23:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bradley University

In <2925477496.6.p00098@mail.psi.net> p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Murphy Jr) writes:

>>For those of you in North/Central California:
>>There will be a Reenactment event on Saturday, Sept. 12 and Sunday 
>>Sept. 13, in Nevada City, California. The event will be held in 
>>Pioneer Park. Living history demonstration will occur thruout both 
>>days and 'battles' will be fought at 12:30 & 3:30 on Saturday and 
>>10am on Sunday. A parade through Nevada City will follow on Sunday. 
>>This event is sponsored by the National Civil War Association; for 
>>more information please contact them at (408)927-7651.

>Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism? A mock
>slave auction, perhaps, where young children will be ripped from their 
>mother's breasts to be sold to the highest bidder? This kind of "living 
>history" sickens me, with it's lopsided focus on one set of battles and 
>one tiny facet of the Great American Race War.
>Jone

Man, chill.  Don't take everything so personally.  There are alot of things
left out.  But you want to run this by someone who has re-enactments in his
own home town.  Re-enactments are wonderful things..  Quit critisizing every
thing people say.  Oh, if you want to flame me back like you so often do
do it to me by e-mail, DON'T POST.  Let's be personal about it.
s
--
and if i should falter
would you open your arms out to me
we can make love not war
and live at peace with our hearts
		A little respect                  Bradley A. Riley
	        Erasure-the innocents	 	  goose@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Industrialization and the Civil War
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:12:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.222921.18631@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>spencer@panix.com (David Spencer) writes:

>>It's pretty far off the topic for this group, but the notion of an
>>earlier Industrial Revolution has been generally accepted among
>>economic historians since at least the early 70's.

>It's not far off the topic at all. Many people, influenced by Marx, have down-
>played the racial aspect of the Civil War and characterized it as a battle
>between modes of production, with one side having been through the Industrial
>Revolution. I don't buy it, but there it is.

Allan Nevins spends a lot of time on the economic differences between the
North and South, and concludes that although the more advanced industrial
base in the North was a major advantage during the course of the war,
it was not proximate cause for the start of the war.  he points out that
the economy of the north was still basically agricultural, and that the
key economic difference comes down to the labor systems underlying the
agricultural systems -- you guessed it, slave labor vs. free labor.
the analysis goes on from there, but it's time to go home.

cheers,
  richard (finally found the time to start reading this froup again)
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
From: russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 9 Sep 1992 13:15:01 -0500
Organization: Great Northern Hotel
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

There are many alternate history type science fiction books, usually of
the "what if the south won" type.  These include Bring The Jubilee by
Ward Moore, Gray Victory by Robert Skimin, The Wild Blue and the Gray
by William Sanders...

An excellent book by Connie Willis is Lincoln's Dreams, which is a
modern book about a guy who does CW research; basically a poignant
magic realism kind of romance, hard to describe but good; no explicit
CW scenes as such, but lots of CW stuff enters into it both plotwise
and thematically/symbolically.

R
From: russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Did Union forces always outnumber CSA forces?
Date: 7 Sep 1992 00:56:44 -0500
Organization: Great Northern Hotel
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

By happy coincidence I just read an article in May 1992 issue of
America's Civil War about a battle at Darbytown Road near Richmond
on Oct 7, 1864.  Frustratingly, I can't find a place where it gives
the totals for each side, but I quote a relevant passage:

"To guarantee that his attacking force would enjoy numerical
superiority, Lee had Hoke's 5000-man division poised to advance on
Field's right.  For one of the few times in the campaign of 1864,
Confederate attackers would outnumber Federal defenders."

This would seem to imply other 1864 instances of CSA troops outnumbering
US troops in a battle.  And in this case, the Condederates lost.

R
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:36:27 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

There's another book I initially forgot. It's called "Traveller" by 
Richard Adams, and it's the war as seen from the eyes of Lee's horse. 
It is a strange and not altogether successful work. There is also an 
'Epic Poem' on the Civil War, "John Brown's Body", by Steven Vincent 
Benet.
JTHoppers