HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahaley@eoe.co.uk (Andrew Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:19:53 GMT
Organization: EO Europe Limited, Cambridge, UK
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:

[ on IBM compilers ]

: What they *aren't* is pale shadows of past compilers.  IBM saw
: 200-300% improvements over hand-coded assembly (and better
: improvements over existing compilers!) on an architecture that they
: thought they knew how to squeeze performance out of.

This perhaps says more about the quality of the assembly code produced
by IBM programmers than their compilers...

Andrew.
From: bruno@broue.rot.qc.ca (Bruno Majewski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: DataPoint (Was: Non Unix-OS's)
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:18:17 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Groupe de Recherche Operationnelle en Telecommunication (ROT)
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

kcj@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (Kevin Jones) writes:
> We're still here and doing much better than some of our former competitors. 
> By the way,  RMSXA is to UNIX as UNIX is to TRS80-DOS.  Thats the only 
> relationshipbetween the two that readily comes to mind.

how come the "feel" of RMS/XA (commands and filenames) resembles TRS-DOS's ??

could it be a former DataPointer went to Tandy in the late 70's???

BTW, what's the latest status of:
* DataBus, 
* ARCnet +,
* you machine line 
* RMS/XA?

and ex-DataPoint user/programmer that wants to know...

----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
Bruno Majewski        | Groupe de Recherche Operationnelle en               |
                      |   Telecommunication (R.O.T.)                        |
bruno@broue.rot.qc.ca +-----------------------------------------------------+
                      | also @: Synerlogic Inc, div. of Andersen Consulting |
There is good beer,   |         Voice: (514) 685-7575                       |
& there is bad beer;  |         FAX  : (514) 685-7692                       |
don't confuse them!   |                                                     |
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: James Petts <pettsj@visigoth.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Organization: No Affiliation
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:38:03 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <1992Aug27.231750.297@cco.caltech.edu> <l+dn=0-.gurgle@netcom.com>



In article <fstuart.920827112330@lab16.eng.auburn.edu> Frank Stuart,
fstuart@eng.auburn.edu writes:
>What does IBM *really* stand for?  Let me know if you know the answer and

Ted Nelson gives a good selection, (plus some excellent IBMisms in 
Computer Lib. I don't have a copy to hand, but it's well worth checking 
out.

James Petts
********************************************************************
* "We use the classical theory on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, *   
*  and the quantum theory on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays."   *
************************************** Wm. Bragg *******************
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman)
Subject: Re: Computers killing people?  (WAS Re: 9 track data storage???)
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:23:06 GMT

oliver@cs.uwindsor.ca (Timothy Oliver) writes:
>No, it is NOT possible.  There are not data lines that go FROM the
>printer TO the computer. The only line that go to the computer
>are status lines (in a PARELLEL port).
>
>With a SERIAL port, maybe. But very unlikely. Few printers have
>the transmit data line hooked up. But any signal that comes in though
>the serial port MUST be read by a programme and any programme that
>writes to a serial printer will reject anything other than the paper out
>signal, pinter not ready signal, etc.

Who says the printer used a serial or parallel port? Many printers
use a network i/f (Ethernet, Apple's LocalTalk) these days and these
little beasties see all the packets that the hosts on the same
net see. And if they can receive packets they can also send them.
There are many avenues of attack once you've got a node on a network.

In the IBM mainframe world many printers are channel attached. You
could cause all sorts of trouble with this sort of i/f. Ever seen what
a glitch on a channel does to some system? (Hint: everything stops).
-- 
Andy Newman (andy@research.canon.oz.au)		"int - God's own type"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: bwatson@nyx.cs.du.edu (bruce watson)
Subject: Re: Flash pix (was: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers))
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 00:50:25 GMT

I didn't see this last year in Cabo San Lucas for the total solar eclipse
but have heard that people will use a flash for eclipse pictures.

Well, it did get dark.

--
Bruce Watson  wats@nyx.cs.du.edu  Toy Cows, Toy Cows in Africa, Toy Cows
From: newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Mark Newton)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Renumbering BASIC programs (was Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler)
Date: 3 Sep 92 06:29:52 GMT
Organization: University of Adelaide, South Australia

In article <1992Sep1.235628.21117@bert.eecs.uic.edu> artn@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ellyn Sandor) writes:
>	Bonus:  guess the BASIC's.
>
>	The first BASIC I used had a interesting way to do a CASE statement.
>Not a good way, but a way.  Let's say A is an integer from 1 and 6,
>and we want to do a SWITCH() from A.
>	...
>	1000 N=1000+A*1000
>	1010 GOTO N
>	2000 REM Case 1
>	2005 GOTO 8000
>	3000 REM Case 2
>	etc...

This one would have to be ZX BASIC on a Sinclair machine.

>	OK, bad example.  The second BASIC I used did not store the program in
>ASCII, but rather in an undocumented tokenized form.  I think they provided
>a RENUM command (but I don't remember).

... and this one wound be Amstrad BASIC on a one of their CPC series
machines.

Do I get a cookie?

   - mark
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
         'Do not expose your LaserWriter to naked flame...'
newton@iagu.itd.adelaide.edu.au         - Apple LaserWriter Manual
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: parke@star.enet.dec.com (Bill Parke)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: opcodes
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:48:51 GMT
Reply-To: parke@star.enet.dec.com
Distribution: alt
Organization: DIGITAL - VMS Engineering


In article <199227.337.12491@execnet>, "jeff zeitlin" <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com> writes:
|>  XOP           eXecute OPerator
    I have always likes:

	TRASH	Tilt Rack And Smash Human
|>
|>  J/
|>  jewff.zeitlin@execnet.com
|>
|> * OLX 2.2 * umop ap!sdn s! an!l6ef s!yf
|>--
|>Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
|>International ILink Host
|>
Bill Parke 			parke%star.enet.dec@decwrl.dec.com
VMS Development			decwrl!star.enet.dec.com!parke
Digital Equipment Corp		parke@star.enet.dec.com
110 Spit Brook Road ZK01-2/D59, Nashua NH 03063

The views expressed are my own.
From: bmb1021@ultb.isc.rit.edu (B.M. Buck )
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash illiteracy; was: Re: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers
Date: 1 Sep 92 04:56:12 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Originator: bmb1021@ultb

In article <1856@adagio.UUCP> grog@adagio.UUCP (Greg Lehey) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.040325.14733@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
>>I have been asked whether one needs flash to photograph a solar eclipse.
>
>Of course. You need to fill in the details in the shadow. Of course,
>you also need to consider a couple of technical problems:
>
>1. You will need a very bright flash
>2. Flash should be set to fire 2.5 seconds before shutter opens.
>-- 
>Greg Lehey                       | Tel: +49-6637-1488              
>LEMIS                            | Fax: +49-6637-1489
>Schellnhausen 2, W-6324 Feldatal, Germany
>*** NOTE ***: Headers get mangled at backbone - reply to grog%lemis@Germany.EU.net

Actually, I think that that would make a very striking picture (done
differently, of course...).  Anyone up to superimposing a picture of a
brightly-lit full-moon over the shadow portion of a solar eclipse?

  Later,
    BP  (bmb1021@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:34:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.225912.29334@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com> lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles) writes:
>
>As far as I remember, my original ranting was more against using assembler
>exclusively than the lack of structured design/CASE/etc. - the person who
>got me flaming was equating incompetence in programming with not using
>assembler, and was implying that anybody who doesn't program in assembler
>is an over-priced, under-skilled fraud.  Needless to say, I took exception
>to this....

You should take exception to it, but not from me.  We were referring to an
unfortunate fact of the industry: that there is a more than insignificent
portion of it populated by people who can barely grasp the hll they use
and abuse.  Someone went further to claim they are largely writers of
undocumented code.  Someone else went further to say they were starving
grad students earning money to eat off of.  My point was that learning
assembler can only enhance their skills, and no one can claim that
learning it detracts from their performance.  As to over-priced or
under-skilled people, well, you get some of that everywhere, not just
programming :-).

cjl
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13218 comp.unix.misc:3396
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: The Wrong Programming Language; was: Re: The need for an assembler...
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:03:42 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug27.205033.18902@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

>I've heard of one defense contract where the DOD specified the code was to
>be written in FORTRAN or assembler.  The contractor wanted to do it in
>Pascal.  Resolution:  The program was written in Pascal.  When it was all
>done and ready to be handed off, they turned on the assembly code printout
>switch on the compiler and told the DOD the resulting output was the
>source.

We teach Prolog and do research on it here.  When interfacing with industry,
we often run into management (even senior-level programmers) who think
_all_ programs have to be written in C++ (five years ago it was C, five
years before that it was assembly language).

My response: "Do you really think you can implement the core of a Prolog
runtime system in C++, and have it work better than the code that the
Prolog vendor has been refining for ten years?"

We also came across a business student who was required to turn in, with a
project, a _flowchart_ of a Prolog program (which is a very strange beast --
flowcharts fit Prolog even less than they fit ordinary structured programming).
If we'd caught that one a little earlier, we would have gotten that 
particular requirement deleted, somehow.


-- 
+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA 
+ Unless otherwise noted, these are private opinions, not official statements.
+ VOTE NO GEORGIA LOTTERY - don't tie education to an unpredictable income.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:47:34 GMT
Organization: St. Peter's College, US

In article <fstuart.920827112330@lab16.eng.auburn.edu>, fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) writes:
> What does IBM *really* stand for?

  In Mike Cowlishaw's "IBM Dictionary", the entry for IBM reads as follows:

IBM, n. 1. Acronym for the name of a certain large Corporation. 2. A
hypothetical 370 instruction, existence strongly suspected but not yet
proven: "Insert Bug under Mask". 3. Immense Blue Mountain/Monolith. 4.
"I've Been Moved", alluding to the favourite game of departmental and
divisional reorganisations. 5. "It's Better Manually" 6. Hudson River
Valley Works (much of that valley, in New York State, is owned by IBM).

	Terry Kennedy		Operations Manager, Academic Computing
	terry@spcvxa.bitnet	St. Peter's College, Jersey City, NJ USA
	terry@spcvxa.spc.edu	+1 201 915 9381
From: deand@bcarh823.BNR.CA (Dean Dillabough)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:45:34 GMT
Reply-To: deand@bcarh823.BNR.CA (Dean Dillabough)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <1992Aug28.084725.22305@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>,
ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:
|>From my experience on MVS systems, I suspect it is
|>
|>Insufficient Batch Machines
|>-- 
|>Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
|>The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
|>diagram.
       
 Shouldn't that be Interactive Batch Machines??

     Dean (No shirt, no shoes, no sig)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:56:49 GMT

lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>In article <NEERI.92Aug27180026@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug27.075325.16635@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>>In article <NEERI.92Aug26154345@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>>>[...] I prefer to take this argument to be PASCAL versus PL/I.  In PL/I
>>>the functions are recursive or not as I choose,
>>
>>Why should a programmer have to specify that a function is recursive? That's
>>what compilers are for.

>Wrong, cheap compilers and simplified language specs are for allowing the
>compiler to be a shoddy implentation of a shoody language.  The compiler
>can't possibly know what you have in mind, so you have to tell it what you
>intend.  Clearly, most reasonable architectures have subroutine call methods
>that can take advantage of non-stack less-cycle methods.  In the process,
>the subroutine call is not recursive, since nothing gets saved on a stack.
>For an entire class of problems, this is quite acceptable, although clearly
>not for everything.  PASCAL for example totally cops out on this point, and
>doesn't have syntax to instruct the compiler as to your intention, thus all
>calls are the high-overhead kind; there's just no way to specify the more
>efficient alternatives.

Bah, you haven't looked at any good compilers.

A compiler can optimize for a number of different kinds of calls
merely by watching the code without any cues from the programmer.  For
example, given a tail-recursive function it can generate only one
frame and have all recursive instances use that one frame (LISP
compilers have been doing this for many years), or even no frame at
all if no real storage is necessary.  Further, a compiler which can
recognize tail-recursion will optimize for it *even if the programmer
is unaware that he's doing tail-recursion.*

The same applies for many other optimization techniques that assembly
programmers use. 

You raised an argument before that you might want to jump out of and
reenter a loop because you have common code which you don't want to
have duplicated.  You say that putting the code in a subroutine will
have performance implications.  I say you're wrong.

Modern compilers will optimize function calling to degrees which the
uneducated do no expect.  They'll inline them if they're small enough,
or they'll avoid unnecessary function-call overhead such as stack
frame generation and even standard parameter passing.  This is
*common* in modern compilers in my experience.

You loose nothing performance-wise by putting the code into a
function, but you make major gains in readability.  You'd need to do a
lot of arguing to convince me that jumping out of a loop and then back
in was easier to understand than a function call.  It's possibly more
efficient, but it's definitely harder to understand.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lemay@epx.cis.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Subject: Re: Apple /// (and MANY other computers)
Keywords: antique
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:09:49 GMT

My list of antiques: Apple ][+, Commodore 64, Atari 800XL, Terak's, TI99/4a,
                     MicroAce (2K ram version!), TRS80 Model 4, Cromemco Z-2, 
                     3 Sun 1 model 100U, DECmate III...

If anyone is still running a Sun 1 system, i'd sure like to hear from them...
It would be nice to try and get the Sun 1's to work again.

-Lawrence LeMay
 lemay@epx.cis.umn.edu
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:45:04 GMT
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Aug28.131215.6689@sei.cmu.edu> ae@sei.cmu.edu (Arthur Evans) writes:
>fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) asks what IBM stands for.
>
>    Itsy Bitsy Machine
>
>of course.
>
>Art Evans

Close, it's Itty Bitty Machines.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Integrated Systems Laboratory, ETH, Zurich
	<1992Aug26.073312.15322@news.columbia.edu>
	<NEERI.92Aug26154345@iis.ethz.ch>
	<1992Aug27.075325.16635@news.columbia.edu>
	<NEERI.92Aug27180026@iis.ethz.ch> <jimf.714945016@centerline.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:33:04 GMT

In article <jimf.714945016@centerline.com> jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:
>neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug27.075325.16635@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>>In article <NEERI.92Aug26154345@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>>>>>The test for the condition is 
>>>>>whether it's possible to transfer out of a loop, and then go back in with
>>>>>out losing any context,
>[...]
>>The
>>only HLLs I know that allow jumping back into loops are Fortran and some BASIC
>>dialects (I don't know PL/I, nor do I have a real desire to know). The BASIC
>>solution leaves the stack in a mess, while Fortran merely leaves the
>>Programmer's mind in a mess.
>
>C allows you to do it too, so long as you stay within the scope of the
>iteration variable.

I should have known. Stupid of me to not think about it.

>In fact, lots of unexpected things are legal with C.  Among the
>ones I've seen in actual code:
>
>	if (some_test)
>	  goto inside_of_switch;
>	/* ... */
>	switch (var) {
>	case X:
>	inside_of_switch:
>	  /* ... */
>	}

The worst construct I have ever seen in C is:

      switch (x) {
      case 1:
         if (x<y) {
            z;
         case 2:
            u;
         }
      }

Structured programming, indeed.

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher                                   neeri@iis.ethz.ch
   "Have you heard of the new Cambridge compilers ? They distribute
    gear-wear much more evenly"
        -- William Gibson/Bruce Sterling, _The Difference Engine_
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: You know you've been reading News too long when....
From: thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:03:34 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

You know you've been reading news too long when you start to hit a
non-existent space bar to turn the page in a book.

...when you hit 'R' after reading an annoying or inaccurate article in
the newspaper.

-- 
    Thomas Beagle | thomas@datamark.co.nz    or | A beagle a day keeps        
Datamark Intl Ltd | thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz | the doctor at bay.
 Technical Writer | 		      Vote MMP!
     Email is good.  Email is fun.  Getting up and walking is evil.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:27:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.043655.26439@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM> rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky) writes:
[lotsa nice virtues of APL deleted]

Another point lost on much of this so-called debate: hll isn't a single-headed
"tool" and the other side of the coin of insufficient use of assembler is the
excessive use of an inappropriate hll when better stuff is available.

If anyone remembers back a few months ago, I pointed out that C was over-used,
considering the availability of assembler *and* other languages.  APL is often
one of these candidates.  

While the arguments rage over C versus assembler, please take note that APL
is a language of a higher-still "order" and clearly the language of choice
for certain problems.

Let's stop putting square pegs into round holes.

cjl


Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: cardell@lysator.liu.se (Mikael Cardell)
Subject: Re: ISO date format
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:03:51 GMT

landauer@morocco.Eng.Sun.COM (Doug Landauer) writes:

>This year.  And for seven more.  But after that ...

No problem, that's easily solved like this: yyyy-mm-dd.
--
Mikael Cardell <cardell@lysator.liu.se>
The dharma bum is going to be a dharma father!
From: mcdowell@exlog.com (Steve McDowell)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash pix
Date: 4 Sep 1992 15:30:47 GMT
Organization: EXLOG, Inc.

DG> .Talking about taking flash photo's. I once heard a story of a demo of some
  > .sort of new computer (no details given) which has some parts in EPROM (you
  > .know, the PROMS you can clear by shining light on its top). They had hidde
  > .this new computer behind a curtain. When the room was filled with all kind
  > .of news people, including photographers, they removed the curtain. On this
  > .very moment every photographer in the room started taking his 'exclusive'
  > .picture. But as the technicians had forgotten to seal the EPROM's erasing
  > .windows the flash light cleared the EPROMs or at least erased them enough
  > .to be unable to continue with the demo.

Actually, it wasn't EPROM's that were wiped. The flashes were triggering the 
optical end-of-tape sensors on the 9-tracks. All the 9-tracks quit spinning
forward and started to rewind. Blew there nice little mainframe demo right up.


-- 
Steve McDowell             . . . . o o o o o 		Opinions are 
Exlog, Inc.	                  _____      o     	mine, not my 
mcdowell@exlog.com      _____====  ]OO|_n_n__][.    	employers..
		       [_________]_|__|________)<   
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers