From: jeon@carson.u.washington.edu (Sangyong Jeon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.atheism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: contradictory nature of free will and omni-anything
Date: 9 Jan 1993 21:17:47 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
Keywords: Signs

In article <0Yf=kJB@engin.umich.edu> ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
>In article <1ilj5cINN7dg@shelley.u.washington.edu> jeon@carson.u.washington.edu (Sangyong Jeon) writes:
>[discussion fo why omniscience denies free-will deleted]
>
> I tend to disagree with this; I think that (in principle) omniscience and
>free will can coexist. 

[details deleted]

> So, in principle, having a known, fixed sequence of events does not deny
>free will, correct?

This has much to do with the notion of god and time. Since you and I both
subscribe to atheism, I may finally get to have a chance to talk this over
intelligently.
Let me have another go at it. I'll edit your text a bit to make some
points. If I am way out of context, say so.

The crux of this matter is stated by you as;

> Now, as you stated in the bit I deleted, omniscience implies that history
>could be laid out in front of a 'god' like a painting. 

The difference of opinion stems from different notions of god, I think.

In your writing I deleted, you compare this with time travel.
The point I am trying to raise here is, to a omni-something god, the
direction of time must not matter. Your supposing

>... This would require
>a god 'outside of time,' or at least experiencing duration along a dimension
>perpendicular to our own time.

assumes that god must experience some kind of linear time that flows in
one direction. If a omni-something god can see our 4-D world as a
painting already done, then that god must also be able to see the 5-D
world as a painting already done, otherwise there may be another
omni-omni-something that knows all about the world of omni-somethings and
if that is true,... well, you get the idea. Ad infinitum, ever read 
"Job" by Heinlein?
The point I am making is that an omni-something god need not experience
time as we do, if that god can experience time only as we do, that is no
god. After all that god is supposed to be omni-something.

Therefore, your statement

>... I think that this would be equivalent to looking at history from the far
>future, when *everything* had already happened. Or, to the outside-of-time
>type god, 'everything happens at once.' 

is actually accurate for an omni-something god must be able to exists in
past, present and future alike. So if there is anything like the end of
time, "He has already been there and back," in our limited langauge.
Or more precisely, that god exists here and there and now and then at the
same time, otherwise that god is not omni-something.

Next you argues,

>....My parents had free will then, I
>have free will now, and my kids will have free will in the future; but my
>choices are affected by the choices of my parents, and my kids choices
>will be affected by my choices. I make choices based on what my parents
>chose/'are freely choosing' in the past, and my kids will have to choose
>based in part on what I'm freely choosing now.

Are you sure you had free choice? How do you know you really had a choice,
not the probability, when you cannot go back when the choice was not made
and try another one? Does it sound like sophistry? It should. However,
suppose there exists our omni-something being who's "been there and back".
Then for example, that being knows whether you will die as an atheist or
finally convert to some religion and die as a theist. You may think you
have a choice now. But since everything that happens both inside your mind
and out side your mind must be known to the omni-something being, your
thinking you have a choice itself is known to him, therefore a fixed event
form the vintage point he is looking. Point is that your thinking that
you have a choice and choosing your choice are LINEAR in time. 
There is no branching point.
Only when there are branching points, we can start to think about free
will. Unless the omni-being also follows the many-world interpretation,
the sequence of events that leads you to a choice in your life is laready
fixed, and if the omni-being knows about your future, the sequence of life
that will yet to happen to you is already fixed. Including your thinking
free will and omni-science can coexist, including my debating that
point, if our omni-something exists at all.