From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: RQ: discussion log, RQ4, languages, various topics
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:07:38 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

This is the transcription of a RuneQuest discussion on November 11 on
America Online, mostly between myself and Oliver Jovanovic, who is
writing RQ4. Sorry for the bizarre line breaks, but if you're interested
in it you can clean it up yourself.

I'm posting it to answer some of the inquiries people have sent my way,
i.e. "what are the changes to RQ4."

11.11 Log EditedTEXTAOqcIb8'(F)'(NXEdited Conference Log
RuneQuest
11/11/92                  9-10:45 pm EST
Participants:
G = Gray, aka Oliver Jovanovic, guest speaker
W = Wryter, aka Frank Mentzer, moderator
C = Cwm fnord, aka Chris McCubbin (of SJ Games), guest
T = Tucholka, aka Rich Tucholka (of TriTac Games), guest
E = Ekron, guest
J = JayC2630, guest

W: Evening, Ekron! Welcome to the AH/Runequest Conference, featuring
Oliver
Jovanovic/Gray!
E: Good evening all. Hi, I'm Loren Miller, I've spoken with Ollie on
email
before.
W: Well, Gray, you have eager listeners...
G: Hey, good to meet you real time...
E: What's the topic right now?
G: It drifted to minatures.
W: But what about RQ?
G: Well, to RQ.
E: Ok!
G: Current news is that AH has finally finished River of Cradles.
E: So if Cradles is done, when does it come out?  (I'm asking the
questions I'm
supposed to.)
G: And it should be hitting stores soon. Week or two, I hope.
E: Good, I'll keep an eye or three out for it.
W: (Evening, JayC2630! Welcome to the AH/Runequest Conference, featuring
Oliver
Jovanovic/Gray!)
G: Right now, we're working on Shadows on the Borderlands.
E: Hi Jay. How many pages is it? Where is it set?
J: Evening - first time in a forum.
G: Hello there. River of Cradles is the same size as Sun County -- 128
pages --
and set in the river valley of the same name.
E: Is Shadows the same? Is it a rework of griffin mountain or something?
G: Shadows on the Borderlands should be 96 pages. And is set in Prax and
the
Wastes.
E: Okay, vulture warriors, chaotic tumbleweeds, that kind of stuff?
G: Parts of it have come out in different forms before - it includes a
reworked
Tale to Tell and Ken Rolston's Black Broo of Dyskund scenario. As well
as a bunch
of new stuff. Chaos wastes, abandoned (and not so abandoned) Thanatari
shrines,
etc.
E: Okee dokee. Anything about that broo castle serving hot peppers and
blocks of
salt to dehydrated adventurers in the middle of the desert? Heh heh
G: Should include a RQIII style write up of the Thanatar cult. Nope,
that's on
the Plateau of Statues, something I've been working on, but not due out
till much
later. The castle was actually a boggle castle.
E: Right. Anyway, I just got done running some RQ for some folks, I cut
the
session short to get online
G: It does briefly discuss the largest Thanatari complex on Glorantha --
The city
of Than-Ulbar, located in an extinct volcano in the Wastes in the
Tunneled Hills
E: Currently I would like to see something in the rules that lets me
determine
the complexity of a task that someone can attempt.
J: (Bye)
G: (Bye!) In other words, a set of skill modifiers.
E: In other words, I'd like to be able to do some diceless style play,
like
Vampire lets you do, Not just skill mods. I want to determine yes you
can do that
or no you cant
G: Ah, rather just guidelines by skill level.
E: For instance, craft wood at 30% means you can make a raft; Craft wood
at 90%
will let you build a viking longship
G: Not a bad idea.
E: Right, guidelines by skill level. It would speed up play by removing
the need
to roll dice with non-combat skills.
G: Say 30%, 45%, 60%, 75% and 90%. As long as we keep it general enough,
so that
we don't have to include a table with each skill
E: Yeah. That's decent. Or perhaps Every 30% have a different cut off.
30
beginner, 60 journeyman, 90 master, 120 legendary, etc
G: I think that would work. Yours is fine too.
E: And then have a list of common tasks for each skill, by the skill
level that
could accomplish them.
G: We currently have 60 pegged as journeyman. 75 expert 90 master; So
that should
work.
E: Or have one table with a bunch of common tasks, the skill and level
required.
I just don't want someone with a 10% skill making a master sword in a
week, just
by rolling lucky
G: I think the one table approach would be better - saves space.
E: I think one table would be better too, it also makes it easier to
leave it
optional
G: Good idea. I'll see that something like that gets into the third
draft of
RQIV. What region do you run RQ in, Loren?
E: I run in a different world called Entelechy. It's in the far future,
in a
living region of the planet. Actually a planetary AI. With ninjas,
psionic
powers, and magic.
G: What flavor? Vance? Whoops, missed the last part... Ninjas aren't too
Vancian.
E: I don't play ninjas grim and gritty. It's actually quite a bit like
glorantha,
the wastes, but with overcrowding instead of loneliness.
G: Sounds a bit more like Cidri, from TFT.
E: Never played there. Heh
G: Giant artificial world. Creators gone.
E: The ninjas are actually called the baby doll assassins. Oops, missed
that.
It's a future earth, actually, and the AI used to be a city.
G: Hm. Hunted by the baby cart assassin? (Lone Wolf and Cub)
E: All the interesting people left for the stars long ago. No baby
carts, sorry
G: Well, Sandy Peterson and Scott Scheider are currently working on
Prax. Beast
Riders of Prax, or the Chaos Wastes will be the title. Maybe.
E: Not another cults of prax?
G: Nope. Information on Prax and the nomads. Describes the Wastes, the
Paps, and
the Praxian underworld.
E: Good. I guess the cults are already covered. by the way, is this
commons going
to be posted?
G: They may include a few, but just Praxian ones.
W: (Posted?)
E: In the archives area
W: (I'm logging, yes, and if we get enough neat info, an edited version
will be
put in the library, yah)
E: ROFL
G: Next is Dorastor: Forever Free and Fertile. (Frantically typing neat
info) It
is a riot.
W: (Naw, not from YOU, Gray -- from Ekron!)
E: Are you kidding? Is that the real name?
G: That's the one I'm pushing for.
E: Is something planned for pamaltela any time soon? I was running a
campaign in
the sozganjio a few years back, but it died for lack of source
material... hint
hint
G: Not for a while. We want to do a Oceans supplement first. So that
people can
get form Genertela to Pamaltela. Islands and ships actually.
E: Who plays mermaids? Who needs to get from genertela to pamaltela if
you start
in pamaltela? I'd like to see something on the yellow and red elves, now
that
would be an alien setting.
G: Jrustela, the East Isles, etc. Players with characters established in
Genertela that don't want to get rid of them.
E: True.
G: Yes, actually, if Elf Pack ever gets done, it will hopefully be set
in the
jungles of Pamaltela. Their elves are more interesting than the
Genertelan ones.
E: If you send your genertelan rune lord to pamaltela that's just like
getting
rid of him anyway; at least from the POV of the people back home.
Question about
time scales
G: True. But a lot of Orlanthi rebels have been fleeing there...
E: Are future RQ products going to emphasize the long range time scale
that the
RQ3 rules did? Or are they in relatively short time scales, say a day
per real
day? I'd like to see how to handle generational developments in
Glorantha, much
like Pendragon emphasizes in albion.
G: About a week per session day is out gut feeling. But we are going to
try to
include some stuff for more long range stuff.
E: Okay, that's like the RQ2 rules. Plenty of time to train and run out
of cash
between sessions.
W: (Evening, fnord! Conference in OGF2?)
E: Evening CWM
C: Hi guys.
E: This is the RQ conference, did you mean to be here?
G: Specifically we wnat to create a time scale a la Pendragon, but with
seasonal
events. Hello there!
C: Yeah, I got a couple minutes before my thing starts, thought I'd peek
in.
E: This sounds like RQ4 is going to be a big book... reeeeaaalllllly
big!
G: Yes. That's been a trend with recent releases. Ie the new Ars Magica,
Vampire,
CoC, etc.
E: I'm asking Ollie leading questions so he can promote the hell out of
upcoming
releases. ooops, was that a bad word?
W: (No problem, Ekron; me moderator say you ok)
G: If we can keep it well organized and interesting, I think people
won't object
to the length. Will take skillful editing, though. Fortunately, that's
something
Ken's good at, so we'll let him sweat <g>.
E: Right, no Dangerous Journeys editing job. Sorry, I just had to jab at
the
worst recent edit I could recall.
W: (LOL)
G: Even RQIII didn't read as well as RQ2, in my opinion.
E: I agree. I could pick up the RQ2 rules, read them once, and ref
G: Putting it in one book instead of half a dozen should help, though
<g>
E: RQ3 required me to leaf through multiple books, with no flow and no
connecting
storyline, and all the tables weren't even well organized in that little
bonus
section
G: Right. Something to avoid. We should have a good storyline threading
throughout as examples and to give information, which will help a lot.
That's
currently under construction...
E: Yes, just like what's his name, the yelmalian dead hero, and the
storm
voice... rurik
G: Right, Ruric. We actually plan to have him make a brief guest
appearance in
Adari. One of the new characters sees a bunch of Yelamaians carrying a
Rune Lord
back on his shield form a raid on Dagori Inkarth <g>
E: Question about gloranthan scripts (that K versus C thing reminded
me). Are
they syllabic, ideographic, or alphabetic? Hey! Uz are peoples too! Are
the runes
the script characters? if so, then I guess they're an alphabet
G: Scripts - something we were actually just recently discussing. We
have
informal Lunar looking a bit like Vinlandia, script characters. Old
Wyrmish is
a but like Latin. Sartarite is very runic, but has swiped a few things
from Old
Wyrmish.
E: I would think auld wyrmish would be an ideographic language, since
the dragons
are all so darn smart
G: That's Kralori.
E: They can probably remember more than an elephant. that's too much
like the
earth analogue
G: Auld Wyrmish was an attempt to translate draconic concepts into human
scripts.
The Kralori are dragons anyway... or so they say...
E: That's a point. I wonder if the dragons write? Or do they just leave
telepathic forms around as recording devices?
G: Draconic is ideograpic. Yes, there are samples of dragon writing in
Kralorela.
Of course, the cover a few miles of cliffs <g> I think the Cliffs of
Chu, or
something like that.
E: Aww, fnord left. I didn't even notice. I guess we were boring him.
W: (He has a conference next door, Ekron)
G: He had to go to run his conference... Like he said...
E: (I know, I'm kidding)
G: Western is semi latin as well.
E: That's cool.
G: Probably what the scholars tried to translate Auld Wyrmish into. And
Tradetalk
is descended from Western, but probably very simplifed.
E: Is the write language skill going to be reconceived as a script
skill? Since
the only way that a written and spoken language are different is if the
written
language is ideographic?
G: We'll probably say that for most languages your Read skill measures
your
ability to communicate in writing, but nothing fancy.
E: For instance, i can read french and spanish and any language in latin
letters
well enough to get the sounds
G: For that you need Write skill, which defaults to half of Read. Or
something
like that.
E: I guess I have problems with the way that read and write were so hard
to learn
even tho they aren't that useful, or hard. I mean, heck, I learned them
in the
summer between kindergarten and first grade, but it takes a lankhor mhy
scholar
years to master his letters. Why not have separate language and script
skills?
G: Yes, I'd say that's Read. Writing script or calligraphy neatly is
harder.
That's not unreasonable.
E: Forget read/write. it confuses language aptitude with letter
recognition.
Ideographic writing is a totally different kettle of fish
G: How would you seperate them? Say Speak Tradetalk, Read Tradetalk,
Write
Tradetalk, or something else?
E: Say you have a script called, oh, brithini, then you can write down
trade talk
in it. Then you need to know brithini script and tradetalk language to
understand.
G: Western... I see. So you would have. Western Script. Tradetalk.
E: Right. effective skill handled like magic spells and skills, at the
lower of
two
G: Not bad. I'll pass that idea on as well. That makes more sense.
E: I used that scheme in a stormbringer campaign, and it worked well.
High
melnibone was an ideographic language, which is why it is so hard to
learn.
G: Sounds like a good idea. We can just assign difficuly levels to
scripts.
Western Script would be Medium, Kralori Hard.
E: Low melnibone is a script used to write the melnibone language.
Exactly, just
assign difficulty to different scripts by how complex the letter shapes
are, and
by how many characters you have to remember. And dragonnewt script would
be nigh
impossible, with psionic triggers and other impossible to detect stuff.
G: Very Hard, with a maximum limit, just like spoken Draconic
E: Same with uz script and darktongue. you might be able to understand
the spoken
parts, but it would be hard to see the differences in texture that the
uz would
pick up like a charm. Same with dwarves, little buggers.
G: Might be touch readable...more like braille for a human reader.
E: Right. Exactly my thoughts
G: Harder for humans.
E: Yep.
G: I like it. Any other brainstorms?
E: On the other hand, the trolls would naturally be handicapped the
other way.
Not brainstorms, really, just got to be some way to cut down the
complexity of
the current skill list. With easy, medium, hard, and very hard skills,
skills
including other skills, and different training formulae for each. It is
very hard
to figure out what skills a character has, and what the skills let
him/her do.
G: A table like you suggest would help. Also, the way we plan to present
them,
with rare skills that humans generally don't learn in a seperate section
should
help. I really don't think that base 0 skills should be on the character
sheet
- too confusing.
E: Is the difficult level thing going to be presented as an option?
True, 00
skills shouldn't be there, unless it's xxx script. Hi Rich.
T: Hay Frank!
W: Yo, Rich!
E: I'm not frank, i'm incensed. <g> General myrrh all around
T: Oops.
G: Whimper.
W: (Evening, Railgun! Welcome to the AH/Runequest Conference, featuring
Gray, aka
Oliver Jovanovic! At least, that's what it's been for 90 minutes... who
KNOWS,
now...)
E: It's a design conference for RQ4, sort of
W: Seems so, yah, Ekron.
G: Why not? Any other RQers among you?
E: me?
W: ::looking among me, diligently::
G: Tucholka actually <g> Wryter, how long have you suffered from
multiple
personality disorder, if I may ask?
W: (Since we were one, Gray)
G: We're in the process of major revisions to RQIII to RQIV.
T: Loved Old Runequest...still have mine. Avalon Hill again?
E: Want to make it more like RQ2 than RQ3, only bigger than Vampire
T: Bigger isn't better...just make it good.
G: Avalon Hill distributes it. Chaosium actually did RQIII, believe it
or not <g>
E: Looks like it'll come in two editions, the full edition at 15 volumes
and
30,000 pp, and the small one, that you need a magnifying glass
(included) to
read.
T: Say What?
G: This is Ken Rolston, myself, and a number of other people. Ken is the
only one
that officially works for AH. Well, some people feel that the third
edition
didn't take up enough shelf space. (just kidding). We're actually
planning a
single volume, though it may be 300 pages or so.
T: Floating Vagabond is the best RPG Avalon did for years.
E: Not saying much. Any other rpgs from ah between 85 and 91?
T: Don't lose the flavor of the world like RQ3 did.  It was a real
disappointment. System without flavor is the death of a game.
G: Quite true. Proving yet again how important background is to a game.
Imagine
Shadowrun without the background <g>
E: Are you thinking of licensing backgrounds from other companies? I
heard that
SJG just licensed the Vampire background from White Wolf. And they've
already
done Bunnies and Burrows
T: Yeah!
G: Right now we want to stick to Glorantha for a while. In a few years
we may
expand.
E: Makes sense. I just wanted to play RQ in Talislanta
G: Say to Bunnies and Burrows... CoC meets B&B...
E: Carrot of Cthulhu
G: Talislantia is very nice - very Vancian flavor (one of my favorites).
EPT
would be great too, if they get a set of functional rules in the new
version
coming out.
E: You like vance a lot, this is the second time you mentioned him. How
would you
get a cugel the clever in RQ mechanics? I'd think it would be difficult
to do the
ridiculously powerful spells in RQ
G: Easy. Fast Talk 120%, Run 99%. Vance's magic system only let you
memorize one
or two spells at a time. Only great mages could stuff in 4 or 5 spells
at a time.
E: I'd love to see ept in rq rules. ept is a big influence on my current
campaign
setting. Anyone working on magazine articles to support RQ?
T: We used to combine Morrow Project and RQ.   Was Great!
G: Tales of the Reaching Moon, in England. We're also getting out review
copies
where we can.
E: Any more mainstream american mags, i already get tales; but it isn't
sold at
my local store (Compleat Strategist)
G: Not at the moment, but we probably will once RQIV is closer to
completion.
W: (King of Prussia?  Geez, I got started gaming there, Ekron...)
E: Actually, the one in Philly near Rittenhouse Square
W: (Ohyeah, THAT one... ;)
T: Niters!
E: Night night
G: Night. Thanks for coming. Anyway, I'm currently working on shaman
rules for
RQIV. Want to get them into playtest fairly soon.
E: Good deal. But they looked fairly complete. I haven't had a chance to
playtest
them yet.
G: Turns out that the RQ1, 2 and 3 shaman rules were never really
playtested.
Greg had a whole bunch of suggetions that we want to incorporate.
E: I mean the old playtest ones. RQ1,2,3 shaman rules never playtested?
That I
can believe. You don't suppose sorcery... naah, never mind
G: It specifically makes shamans weaker in the mundane world (ie not
immune to
hostile spells), but makes them work better in the spirit world.
E: Watch out that you don't make them like deckers in SRUN. You know,
specialists
that only disrupt the flow of the game.
G: Also streamlined rules for dealing with spirits that don't disrupt
the game.
<Like you said> No more rolling of dozens of random encounters.
E: You could use that table that I mentioned. 30 scout astral terrain,
60 find
spell spirit, 90 beat bad man
G: More a set of simple rules for determing how long it takes to find a
spirit
the shaman is interested in.
E: Right. That's one of my favorite directions for game rules. Make
rules that
determine how fast you can do something rather than whether or not you
can do it.
G: Exactly.
E: Perfect. I gotta go before I spend too much money.
W: ::chuckle::
G: OK, take care.
E: Bye now. And let me know if the log gets posted
G: Thanks Wryter.
W: So, that wrap it for tonite?
G: I think so. Thanks for logging.
W: Nix sweatus.
11/11/92 21:47:42 Closing Log file.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc