HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jah14@po.cwru.edu (Jonathan A. Horvath)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: 4 Noble Truths
Date: 4 Jan 1993 13:00:35 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu



unfortunately I don't get on here to often but wanted to share my insights
from my practices in vipasanna and samatha....


In a previous article, schiller@whorf.UCAR.EDU (Eric Schiller) says:

>In article <47420@ogicse.ogi.edu> kris@bsg8.Corp.Sun.COM (Kris Skrinak)  
>writes:
>> 
>> I've got a problem with the 4 Noble Truths.
>> 
>> I think that 'suffering' as a basis of spirituality has no relevance in
>> Western culture.
>> 
>> I am not suffering. I am wealthy, healthy, in touch with my
>> surroundings and those around me. Further, I am happy and optimistic.
>> 
>> I believe and espouse non-dualistic teachings. But avoiding or ending
>> suffering has nothing at all to do with it.


perhaps but only later zen preaches about this non-duality, early teaching
point to the non-being (anatta, anicca) of even that, thus becoming non-
monistic as well as non-dualistic.


>> 
>> Can someone out there tell me what role 'suffering' plays in such a
>> life?
>> 
>> -Kris
>When your friends go away you are happy?
>When friends and relatives die you are still happy?
>When the IRS takes some of your money you are still happier?
>When the Post Office fails to deliver your mail you rejoice?
>
>if you are in touch with your surroundings, surely they change
>from time to time in ways that do not please you. If you are
>attached to your friends and possessions you will suffer when 
>they are gone.
>


dukkha more accurately translates into English as 'dis-ease' the state 
which is described as not being absolutely and non-deludedly (if thats a
word!!!) serene (from samatha) ....any feeling of dis-ease from a minor
stiff neck, to a royal pain in the ass is dukkha, dukkha is a result of
kamma and being born is also a result of kamma, mainly bad kamma (although
better kamma leads to birth as a human than as a dog) and therefore birth
is a form of suffering.  there is no existence which has always been, and
that which can not be separated from the idea of origination can not be
separated from the idea of degeneration and decay...thus if you attach
yourself to these things which are tied to origination and degeneration and
decay then any ease (satisfaction, peace) that you might get from them will
leave you when the are gone. and if this is truly not the case in your life
than you would be a thus attained one, a buddha, one who dwells in nibbana.
but then why own the computer and join in on the fun here....even a boddhisatta
isn't a buddha yet!  well take care be well

in loving kindness and compassion---



peace, love, enjoy, all the best


Jon



-- 
neither buddhist nor non-buddhist     |  Jonathan A. Horvath [jah14@po.cwru.edu
neither tao nor non-tao               |  Case Western Reserve University
duality is something only in one      |  RELIGION/physics
unity is nothing only in none         |  140 Michelson [216] 754-2044 (2043)
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Multiple Truth Values
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:16:13 GMT
Followup-To: sci.logic
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

[I directed the followup-to sci.logic, since this particular poster
 reads that newsgroup.  If it is of interest to soc.religion.eastern
 readers, please repost that article to soc.religion.eastern, as
 described in the how to cross-post article I just put onto the
 net.   --Toshi]

 

     There has been some talk lately on sci.logic about cultures
and religions which have multiple truth values.  In particular,
it has been asserted that the Jains have (or had at some time)
seven truth values.

     In traditional Western thought, in contrast, there are just
two truth values (true and false).  Lately, logic researchers
have been playing around with the "undefined" truth value and
with a "both true and false" truth value.  I think we sci.logic
people would be interested in hearing about philosophically- or
religiously-motivated theories of truth.

     Anyone care to expound on the Jainian or other conception
of truth values?  I would be especially interested in hearing
what exactly these truth values are supposed to signify, and in
examples of statements with each of the truth values.  Any
reference books you can suggest?

thanks
--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"The Tao's net encompasses the whole universe."  - tao te ching
From: prh2s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Patrick Ray Harrison)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Pleasure from travelling, an example of its baselessness
Date: 10 Jan 1993 01:11:10 -0800
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:

> People go to places where there is hardly any sight seeing to be done,
> yet feel great about their trip.  The pleasure only results from
> cheating your mind.

I would agree that if the world were entirely illusory, then seeking
to gain a richer experience of it--whether by travelling, sightseeing,
or observing the lives of people in other cultures--would be a form of
"cheating" one's mind.  On the other hand, one may hold (e.g., per Advaita
Vedanta) that everything is a manifestation of the One, like a collection
of gold jewelry, each piece unique in form, but materially like every
other piece.  From this point of view, one may gain pleasure from travel
in finding that the One has manifested itself in an extraordinary variety
of forms:  peoples, languages, cultures, lands, forests, mountains, and
so on.  How marvellous--and to me, at least, how remote from anything 
like "cheating" the mind--is the contemplation of such variety, and yet
such essential oneness!

Travel, like eating (the pleasure of which Abhay also questions), or
like any activity, may be superficial (only focusing on variety, and
hence only engaged in distractions that "cheat" the mind), or it may
be profound (moving to perceive the essential unity that has manifested
itself diversely, and hence enlightening the mind).  Superficial activity
is bound by maya and cannot escape; profound activity plays hide-and-seek
with maya, catches it, and then finds the unity it hid.

Patrick
(prh2s@faraday.clas.virginia.edu)
From: kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Happiness
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:04:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.212140.9752
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1inj20INNoja@gap.caltech.edu>, abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT) writes:
> What is happiness ?

A good rye bread ??

> 
> Happiness is a state of mind in absence of desires.
> 
> When is this possible, in practice ?
> When there is no fear, anxiety, boredom, desires, wants
> or unfulfilled needs. A feeling of all round satisfaction.

I don't think I could be "happy" without fear, anxiety, boredom, etc.
These are part and parcel of the human realm.

> Then how does one avoid fear, anxiety, desires, etc. ?  

We have nothing to fear but fear itself !  Churchill was right, at
least on this issue anyway.  You have to stop being afraid of fear.
You have to make friends with both your fear and that which you fear.
Avoidance won't do the trick.  Not that common sense should be
dispensed with, but rather it should be extended and refined.

> By realising that fear and anxiety are empty and unnecessary concepts,
> by realising the futility (undesirability) of desires and wants.
> Unfulfilled needs (e.g. hunger) could be a problem, until you make those
> needs unnecessary.

Most demons (desires and wants) worth their salt don't go away just
because you have given them a good meal or preach the dharma to them.
In fact, they tend to remember your hospitality, gracious or
otherwise, and come around again with some of their friends.  There is
a story in v1 of the "100,000 Songs of Milarepa" (Garma C. Chang, tr.)
called Jewel of Red Rock Valley (or something like that - its been
awhile) which deals with some of the issues you raise here.  Milarepa,
being the ascetic tantric yogin that he was, had been sitting in a
cave, when he was visited by some rather fierce demons.  After
exhausting his own particular bag of tricks in a vain effort to get
them to leave, he welcomes them and tells them to stay as long as they
wish.  Once he stopped being afraid of them, he was able to resume his
practice with great confidence.

> What are fear and anxiety and how are they related to uncertainty ?

I'm not sure ...  I do know, however, that we would be in remiss
without mentioning one my own personal favorites, paranoia.  And
likewise for what is, IMHO, the best of the lot by far - terror !  A
wonderfully exquisite delicacy, even if only experienced at low
intensities.


Yours in Dharma,
-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
From: drizzt@spock.uucp (Neela Jacques)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddha statue
Date: 6 Jan 1993 16:09:21 -0800
Organization: Choate Rosemary Hall
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

 >Does anyone know of a way to obtain a Buddha statue?? I'm looking
 >for an Indian or Thai Buddha, perhaps about 6-8 inches high.
 >I have not been able to find a suitable one.  I would like to have
 >one for a small personal altar, something that would motivate me
 >in my Buddhist studies.  I'd like to find something less than $50.
 >Or maybe someone could point me to where I could get a good quality
 >photo/poster???



There is a store in New Paltz N.Y.that sells many new age things including 
books and statues (hindu and buddhist) 
-- 
*******************************************************************************
* Neela Jacques*Drizzt@choate.edu**********************************************
**************************************Caitanyam Atma***************************
*If you know what this means E-mail me.****************************************
From: mhumi@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Mayer Humi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: need info Scotland/Ireland
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:56:21 GMT
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

Dear Friends,
I would like to spend part of the upcomming summer in 
Scotland or Ireland. However I would like to couple
pleasure with my meditation practice(self directed
...I am not interested in participatinf in any workshop)
I wonder if somebody can advise me of an appropriate 
place for this end.

Idealy I am looking for a serene environment with good 
and clean facilities (well above average in quality)
not bunk bed in a dorm accomodation.
Thank you for your kind help.
From: billc@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Bill Carter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 6 Jan 1993 16:07:40 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1id8qsINNdqk@gap.caltech.edu> asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders) writes:
>Some people see the "immaculate conception" story as a metaphor
>for the transformation of the human into the divine.

   I expect there are people who see the story that way, and I
   salute them.

>It may be fair to say that the commonly-
>accepted understanding of *any* modern-day religion fails to
>embrace the deepest knowledge to be found in that religion.

   I agree with this observation also.  I will add that, in my
   own view, the knowledge is buried deeper in some religions
   than in others.

>Surely, if Truth were for *everyone*, the world would be a far,
>far better place than it is. There is certainly no shortage of
>religion, nor of followers of religions!

   This approaches my point.  So is there something wrong with the
   people or with the religions?

| ...contrast with Buddhism, where Siddhartha Guatama is supposed 
| to have been a plain old ordinary guy like you and me.

>A wealthy prince who renounces *everything* to go out into the
>wilderness in search of Truth is hardly an "ordinary guy"!

   The topic has drifted somewhat, but in a post several weeks ago
   I proposed that Hinduism is a "revealed" religion.  I gave some
   justification for the claim that Buddhism is not.
   So let me clarify; let's assume for discussion that the human
   persons these religions are based around, if they existed, were
   righteously enlightened people.  It is the religious systems that
   evolved around them later which are visible to us today, and
   those systems do differ.

   Buddhism appears somewhat unique in that even on the surface,
   there is no claim that Guatama had some special divinity apart
   from ordinary people like us.  Unusual willpower and determination,
   perhaps, but he is not said to have been influenced by anything
   supernatural or born with any special advantage that the ordinary
   man does not have.  I think this is pretty neat.

   Other religions make no such claim about their central figures.
   Recklessly controversial, I proposed that Hinduism is among them.
   So far no one seems to be disputing that.

=========================================
Bill Carter             I draw water.
						I carry wood.
						This is my magic.
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Our desires and our way of life
Date: 8 Jan 93 01:30:23 GMT
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

Hi,

	Toshi quotes ...

>                 You are what your deep driving desire is.
>          As your desire is, so is your will.  As your will is,
>          so is your deed.  As your deed is, so is your destiny.
>                 Brihadaranyaka IV.5 (The Upanishads)

While I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of his posting, I find this
particular quote fatalistic. This is so because we all know that we do not
have access to our "deep driving desire". Buddhism, in the Dhammapada, opens
on a different footing which is seems only slightly different on the surface
but is in fact a whole world apart. The Dhammapada opens (from memory),

	Mind is the beginner of all actions.

The difference ? This "mind" includes both the conscious ("rational") and
the unconscious ("deep desire") part. This is very important in that it means
that we have at least a say in our being.

	A while back, a Christian friend once told me that "being natural"
is what its about. "Being natural" is "being with God". I told her that if 
I would "be natural", she wouldn't like a single moment of it (sounds that the 
old Incredible Hulk line ;-) Not letting out our "deepest desire" go may 
sound "hypocritic" (depends on your definition of the word), but aren't we 
all "hypocrite" ? 

	The central message of Buddhism seems to me to be that "yes, your
deepest desire is very powerful and have a lot of say in your being BUT (and
this is a very big BUT) you can change it gradually by practice. In practice,
the rational mind slowly grinds at the unconscious part and by the Law of
Karma, your deepest desires will also change albeit very slowly according to
your molding." It is very important, of course, that there is genuine change 
and not pure repression. 

	These are of course two extremes. The side that believe that change
is possible and the other that belief All-powerful God made everything just
as it is and any talk of change on our own would be an insult to his
potency. The child rapist who was hung recently in Washington (I think)
clearly subscribed to the latter pessimitic side. For while he "embraced the
Lord", he chose death believing that he will never change his way. It was a
bold decision, but the fact that he recognized his own tragedy could very well
had been the very first step in a long hard and even more valiant struggle
to undo his "karmas". (Note : this is not a statement for or against the
death penalty.)

	"He who conquers himself is the greatest conqueror."

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Cecilia Henningsson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Indian basil in religious practices?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 10:46:45 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu
Keywords: basil, ocimum sanctum, india

Today I received a seed catalogue from Impecta, the best stocked seed
company in the Nordic countries. One of the novelties was seed for
something called _Indian_basil_. Here is the entry, translated by me:

	Indian basil, _Ocimum_sanctum_ (annual) Unusual species with
	strong, sweet fragrance and freely flowering. Excellent as a
	fine spice. Also has medical and religious uses.  11,50 SEK

I am primarily interested in what kind of religious practices
_Ocimum_sanctum_ is used for, and secondarily in how it could be used
in cooking, and its medical usage.

I also wonder about the common name assigned to the plant. What is the
Indian common name (as opposed to the systematic name -
_Ocimum_sanctum_) and what would it be if translated into English?
_Ocimum_ is the basil family, so the common name doesn't seem too
far-fetched.

(Cooking and medical responses obviously should be in e-mail, as )
(they don't belong in soc.religion.eastern.  )

--Ceci



--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
Linkoeping, Sweden gets just short of 500 mm precipitation a year.
====================================================================
From: billc@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Bill Carter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:27:24 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu


RADAMS@cerritos.edu (Roger Adams) wrote;
>However, Hinduism, 
>which is a huge glob encompassing Yoga,  Vedanta etc., as well as
>fundamentalist elements, cannot be characterised in such a simplistic manner.
>Vedanta, for instance, says there is one reality without second.

   I figured someone would bring up Vedanta eventually.  Sure,
   I'll admit that Hinduism and Buddhism both are huge globs and
   anything you say about either of them can be disclaimed.  Still
   I am hoping some kind of comparison can be drawn.  Let's put Vedanta
   aside for now, it has shared so much back and forth with Buddhism
   that they are almost indistinguishable to me.

   I was kind of hoping someone would step forward and say "I am
   Hindu, and I think Hinduism is/is not a "revealed" religion for
   the following reasons".  Since that hasn't happened yet I have
   to try to explain their side more than I really want to.

   Someone else feel free to set the record straight.  You've got
   your Vedas, which are enormous and rambling.  But a core document
   appears to be the Bhagavad Gita, sometimes called the bible of
   Hinduism.  In it, Krishna is the chariotdriver of Arjuna.  Krishna
   is portrayed as supernatural, a direct physical manifestation of
   divinity who "reveals" the mystic truth to Arjuna. 

   Now, plenty of people would squawk that this is metaphorical
   and it is a big mistake to take the story literally.  I feel the
   same way.  But the fact remains that the literal, surface
   interpretation is as I stated it above and plenty of people see
   no further than this (Druta Karma, where are you when I need you?).
   Christianity, by this definition, is very much "revealed"
   indeed.

   Contrast this with Buddhism.  Siddhartha Guatama is said to have
   been a human.  Hardly any Buddhist claims Guatama was born enlightened
   or that he was filled in by avatars from some higher-than-human
   sphere.  He is said to have starved himself half to death just
   prior to enlightenment, but that's different.

>What you said was "neat"
>about Buddhism not claiming divinity for Buddha is actually still true even
>if he is seen as divine, for we are all divine and need only to surrender 
>fully to this divinity.

   Actually, O Roger of the many run-on sentences :), I didn't say
   anything about him not being divine.  I said he was ordinary in
   the same sense as you and I, unlike Krishna or Jesus.

=========================================
Bill Carter             I draw water.
                        I carry wood.
                        This is my magic.
From: abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Fear and anxiety
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:30:16 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

I mentioned earlier that happiness is a state of mind in absence of
desires, which also means that there should be no fear or anxiety.
To get rid of fear and anxiety, we need to study what fear and anxiety are.

What is the source of anxiety ? Attachment ? Desire ?

Is anxiety = fear = uncertainty ? 

Anxiety is a feeling that something bad is likely to happen.
(How do we know what is bad ?)
I guess fear is more or less the same thing.
Anxiety and fear arise out of uncertainty.

If one believes that whatever happens happens for good, so that
nothing bad happens, there could be no anxiety. 

How does one conquer anxiety, knowing very well that uncertainty
could always be there ? By accepting that the choice is not yours,
and by panicking, you are not likely to achieve anything. Whatever
happens, happens for good.

This matter is a bit confusing to me.

With regards,

Abhay
From: Ritesh.Bansal@cs.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddha/Arahant Difference ?
Date: 11 Jan 93 06:59:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.211830.9199
Organization: ----

Hi,

I am sure this question has been asked before,  but I could not find a
satisfactory answer to this question. What is the difference between a
Buddha and a Arahant.  What knowledge I have gleaned from the answers so
far is that 

- A Buddha is fully enlightened and is a Arahant, while a Arahant is
fully liberated.
- A Buddha has devloped his 10 paramitas to a much larger degree than an
Arahant 
- A Bodhisatva  has to go through many more lives to reach the state of
full enlightenment than to be an Arahant.

any clarification and answers appreciated.

Peace 

Ritesh
Hacker 
Raspberry Institute, School of Cucumber Science, Cranberry Melon
University.
______________________________________________________________
"The spear in the others heart is the spear in your own,
	you are he" ---------  Attributed to Surak.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Spiritual value of travel (was Re: Pleasure from travelling...)
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:49:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.211400.8593
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I think that for many, traveling is another form of sense
gratification and escape.

However, for the mindful person, it need not be so. 

When one travels, one is for a time away from the people and things
that anchored the conditioning of home.  One could choose, in such a
situation, to become another person, to let go of conditioning. 

It is often the case that when someone travels extensively for the
first time, and they can see the world from a different perspective, a
perhaps less conditioned perspective. 

People often travel precisely to escape from themselves, to be free
for a time from their old conditioning. However, in most cases, after
a while, the old self catches back up with them. When they go home it
is back to the same old grind.

				cheers,
					Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************