HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:08:57 GMT

I don't have my copy of MK law handy, so I can't quote exactly, but I know
that the Middle Kingdom prohibits discharge of firearms at events EXCEPT the
signal cannon at Pennsic.

Rhys ap Bledri
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson)
Subject: Re: Sumptuary Laws
Reply-To: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:11:16 GMT

In article AA23554@sun.CC.WestGa.EDU, wrsstu@sun.cc.westga.EDU (William Steinen) writes:
>To the Rialto, greetings from Keighvan O'Cealaigh!
>
>	In a recent posting, Henry Troup inquired about the existance of
>sumptuary laws in the various Kingdoms.  I don't have my Kingdom Law on hand
>at the moment, but I'm almost certain that Meridies has no such laws (other
>than the usual reservations of crowns and white belts, and I'm not sure those
>would count.  If such laws were passed, and if they resembled medieval sumptuary laws to any great extent, it would certainly raise the ire of some of our more
>flamboyant non-nobility.
>>						Keighvan O'Cealaigh
>						Freehold of FoolsHaven
>						Meridies


Sorry to break this too you, but there are quite a few sumptuary laws in Meridies.
As you mentioned reserving belts colors, chains, medalions, as well as regulating
the size of circlets,coronets, etc. recently we have added quite a few dealing with
armorial display. But as it stands most laws allow so much as the maximum sizes and
such are rarely met.

Sir Brian
Princeps Meridies
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 00:07:07 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Mike Squires writes:
>>Graydon writes:
>>  My feeling about this is that SCA fencing has exactly the same problem
>>  SCA archery does; it is a modern activity in funny clothes.
> 
> In the Museum Replicas catalog is a book that turns out to be a summary of the
> works of de Grassi, Saviolo, and Silver.  The authors don't
> seem to have looked much at primary sources nut it is easy to get and
> easily applied to both fencing and armored fighting.

DiGrassi's `True Arte of Defence' was written in 1594; Saviolo's `Practice 
in Two Books' in 1595; Silver's `Paradoxes of Defence' in 1599.

Seeing as how the three were (at least, according to them) well-renowned
practitioners and teachers of rapier combat, it seems to me that they 
*are* primary sources themselves...

(As to Graydon's comment:  Going back and forth in a straight line, with 
only one weapon, wearing a white jacket and a mask, and following the rules
about right-of-way: yes, that *is* a modern activity.  True, we in the SCA
must wear the masks [what sane fencer WOULDN'T?], but the style in which
we fence more closely resembles the period rapier combat than modern
collegiate/Olympic fencing.  Especially if one is wearing a nice sturdy
doublet, and fencing with a case of rapiers...)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
From: Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: buying awards
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1993 14:09:16 -0500

    Bjalfi replied to the thread on the monetary cost of awards:
 
>I will grant that there are people who work to get awards, rather 
>than to enjoy what they are working at.  For them, yes, the awards 
>are structured in such a manner that you have to spend money to get 
>them. So what?  If you want something, and the only way to get it is 
>to buy it, then you have to buy it or go without.  Buy your d--n 
>award and enjoy it.  Any award _I_ might get is free, because it will 
>be given to me after I've done the things I would be doing anyway, 
>even if the award didn't exist. 
 
    Bjalfi, I must apologize for the crack about the turnip truck. If 
we ever meet, I would be very proud to teach you the secret SCA 
handshake; but I now suspect you already know it.
 
    Awards are actually pretty cheap. I saw a really nice Pelican 
medallion at Pennsic for only $20......
 
                                Henry Best, Isenfir, Atlantia

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Drachenwald and Corpora
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:26:57 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

William de Corbie, Tibor, and others have been discussing possible ways
to organize Drachenwald or Nordmark.

As I understand it (and I may well be wrong) the SCA will soon
incorporate in Europe in some fashion or other, as it already has in
Australia.  This new corporation will presumably be governed by its own
Board of Directors, which will produce its own legislation.  I see no
compelling reason why SCA Europe should be bound by the Corpora
promulgated by SCA USA.

This would run counter to what little I know of corporate practices
(I suspect that a US non-profit organization won't have wholly-owned
subsidiaries overseas.)  Moreover, if this were normal, then the Boy
Scouts of America would be governed by the decisions of the British
Boy Scouts, as would the rest of the world (to cite a parallel.)

If SCA Europe adopts a Euro-Corpora that is reasonably similar to the
US-Corpora, then the two organizations will recognize each other as
branches of the same Society.  I think this is desirable.

How much leeway SCA Europe has in this, before SCA USA declares them
all heretics and places an interdict on Europe, is difficult to judge.
Still, they have some, so that what US-Corpora says should only be
interpreted as a guideline in this case, rather than as a rule.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Atmosphere and atmospherics
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:52:57
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu's message of 11 Jan 93 21:11:02 GMT


jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
] [ essentially, that the mishmash of times and places destroys the
] "romance" for authenticity fanatics ]

Analogy:
The presence of minorities undoubtedly destroys the "romance"
for many people, few of whom are in the SCA fortunaetely.

The SCA does not need to solve either of these problems. 
The people who let the mere presence of Anachronism at
a Society for Creative Anachronism disturd their enjoyment
need to find their own solution. 

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
	<BRANDON.93Jan2141942@gauss.math.brown.edu>
	<1i5t2rINNjc6@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
	<1993Jan5.074039.13915@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:19:05 GMT

Thomas the Clerk did write:
>Now, note that the sun moves with a constant angular velocity of 15 degrees
>per hour on the ecliptic circle (although it's projection along the
>horizon line is a function of the season).  This means that sundials
>naturally give "equal" or "secular" hours.  "Unequal" or "liturgical"
>hours (1'st hour at sunrise and 12'thhour ends at sunset) are not
>"normal" for this projection.  This is solved by putting a "nodus"
>on the gnomen, and using a horizon traversal projection on the plate.
>This then makes each day 12 hours long.  the time is read from the position
>of the shawdow of the nodus, and not from the edge shadow of the gnomen.
>Interestingly enough, such a dial requires very complex scribing, or
>it requires you to know the date to read it.

Oops.  Sounds like I blew it.  Well, this should answer the original
question, anyway.....

			---Simon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: On the nature of light blows and too light blows
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 15:41:15 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1993Jan1.194422.1@camins.camosun.bc.ca> comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca writes:
>In article <Bzyvpr.2L9@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>> In article <921226041151_71431.167_EHJ44-1@CompuServe.COM> 71431.167@compuserve.COM (REED E HARRIG) writes:
>>>I do not object to that kind of research.  In fact, I believe that some
>>>research was done on this subject several years back.  It used a suit
>>>of riveted mail (the society standard) draped over a pig (deceased).  
>>>The results were, if my handed down information is correct, that the
>>>force required to pierce that mail was less than what was the
>>>standard some 11 - 15 years ago.  

>> 	These are the results as I remember them from the article. 
>> 
>> A pig carcass was draped with a piece of padding, then a layer of thick
>> leather, then a layer of riveted mail. The whole mess was then attached
>> to a tree, so it couldn't get loose. A "standard" swing of a broadsword
>> didn't damage the armor much, but did break ribs underneath the armor. 
>> A thin bladed spear went between the links of the mail, through the
>> leather, padding AND the pig and stuck in the tree behind. OUCH.

This is approximately what I would have expected, save that I'm
suprized the thrust was quite *that* effective. For one thing,
you would not *want* it to be so deep;-)

Any idea what "thick" leather means? I see I'm going to have
to get the article. 

If anyone (longshot) has the article online, I'd love to 
read it.

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions... 
Distribution: world
Date: .., 10 Jan 93 10:24:24 GMT
Organization: Me? Organized?


Following the various discussions on the Geographical Limitations of 
the current CoA Rules of Blazon I had a brief discussion with our 
ex-Seneschal (by 1 day) today, who is also our ex-Herald.

His comment was "Oh no, not that again..." :-)!!

He also was under the impression that the CoA was originally set up as 
a direct (or as close as we could manage) copy of the English CoA of 
1465, which would account for a few points of conflict.

Any comments?


Thorfyrd Hakonson, Shire of Southron Guard, Caid
Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand
mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: 5 Jan 93 07:40:39 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


Sundials, especially modern ones, tell "secular" time, or what we have come to
know as equal hours.

The reason is simple...   the gnomen parallels the axis of rotation (on a 
good sundial, as opposed to a cheap KMart blue light special).   Since
the earth rotates 15 degrees per hour, we could theoretically make a 
dial by wrapping a cylendar around a gnomen, and marking it every 15 degrees.
The shawdow will move with a constant velocity of 15 degrees every hour, no 
matter what time of year.  If there was no axial tilt then this cylendar would
suffice.  But the tilt causes seasons. It will rise earlier some times of the
year (and much further to the north east), and much later at other times
(and further to the south east)  of the year.   This means that the cylendar
must be distorted to accomidate this.   The distorted figure is called the
cone of Dionysidorus.   This distorted cone has the property that the
rising sun shadow of the gnomen falls on a later hour in the winter than
in the summer.  But the projection of the movement is still 15 degrees
per hour.   The lines follow hyperconic sections, but are generally 
approximated by spericonic sections.

Now most people find the cone of Dionysdirous hard to build, so they project it
onto a flat surface.  This gives us the standard sundial.  Interestingly
enough, the transform of the hyperconic cone of Dionysidrous onto a flat
plate which is perpendicular to the zenith gives essentially straight
lines.   Other prjections onto the so called reclining declining dials (those
not at 90 degrees to the vertical or 90 degrees to the polar axis) give
complex hyperbolic sections, which are fun to compute, but hard to describe 
here without pictures.

Now, note that the sun moves with a constant angular velocity of 15 degrees
per hour on the ecliptic circle (although it's projection along the
horizon line is a function of the season).  This means that sundials
naturally give "equal" or "secular" hours.  "Unequal" or "liturgical"
hours (1'st hour at sunrise and 12'thhour ends at sunset) are not
"normal" for this projection.   This is solved by putting a "nodus"
on the gnomen, and using a horizon traversal projection on the plate.
This then makes each day 12 hours long.  the time is read from the position
of the shawdow of the nodus, and not from the edge shadow of the gnomen.
Interestingly enough, such a dial requires very complex scribing, or
it requires you to know the date to read it.

Such dials are out of fashion.

If anybody wants to know how to construct any of these goodies, I could make
up instructions.  I make sundials for the fun of it.  Seems very
appropriate in Arizona.   I've always wanted to use a helium blimp to
stretch a cable over the Great Meteor Crater in norhtern Arizona, and then
use white rocks to make a sundial on the floor of the hole.  But I'm sure
nobody would let me do it.  Still, it woud be the worlds biggest for a while.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: elected monarchs
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:14:46 GMT


Tim writes:

> Monarchies that were elective: The Holy Roman Emperor (formally, 
> although less so in practice) and Poland. 

And one very, very important one, though he's not normally thought of
as a "real" monarch: the Pope.  If we factor the Pope into the
equation, then more people subscribed to an elected monarch than to
hereditary ones, since _everyone_ understood the priority of the Pope.
One of them, anyway.  (In the Emperor vs. Pope battles, the Pope
usually won)  

Tio dell'abaco
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:34:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan7.023439.10507
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <726123493.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> I know of no evidence that the Normans used "longships", nasty or
> otherwise, nor that they were particularly fond of axes. Moreach, you
> watch too many movies....

  I don't suppose the Bayeaux Tapestry counts in your book?  Seems the Normans
  were quite fond of longships.

  Could we all be a bit less quick with the accusations, please?
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 -------- The value of the dollar remained steady today at 100 pennies --------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Legislating Authenticity
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:20:40 GMT

In article <grimkirk.0mmy@amiganet.chi.il.us> grimkirk@amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider) writes:
>   Those that I have spoken to would make such a move toward legislating
>authenticity by decrying the status quo as undesirable and unauthentic, as well
>as maintaining that the SCA's main thrust IS authenticity and theatre. This
>contradicts Corpora's written statements to the contrary. Corpora states that
>ATMOSPHERE via research and recreation is the goal, and specifically states
>that the SCA is "living history" and NOT dramatic performance.
>
>   While not addressing specific topics (like combat), I'd like some discussion
>on this issue. Should we begin to increase the SCA's level of authenticity via
>legislation or continue as we have, by motivation and reward? And if so, should
>it be done universally (at the Society level), or left to individual Kingdoms
>to adjudicate? What are your views on the pros and cons of this issue and is it
>something we ought to do?

I think my opinion on these subjects is probably pretty well known.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to rules.  

I don't think one can effectively legislate such changes, but one can
pesuade towards more authenticity.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Fencing (was Re: Thinkwell; Drachenwald ideas; Alternate Crown Types)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 19:52:59 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote:

>  Fencing is practically unheard of [in the West]...  The opinions on the
> subject of some of the local Chivalry are also 'interesting'.  :-)

This is a good point at which to ask a question that's puzzled me for some
time: Why does anyone object to fencing as an activity in the SCA?  No one
is trying to force them to do it; why should they object if someone else
does it?

I can imagine a couple answers, but they don't seem to me to explain the
rabid opposition to the sport that we've seen (to the point of its having
been outlawed in some kingdoms; I do not know if such laws still exist).

(1) It doesn't fit the medieval world we are trying to re-create.  

We all know that this isn't true by the letter of the law: The SCA's period
extends to 1600, and fencing is well-documented long before that.  If this
is the basis for objections, then it must derive from personal
considerations: If I am trying to "live" in the world of the 12th century
tournament, then a bunch of fencers just don't fit.  On the other hand,
neither do most of the activities routinely accepted as part of the SCA.
Perhaps there are some people who, at some level, are willing to accept the
"misfits" that we've already got, but want to stop the introduction of new
ones.  On Cariadoc's Third Hand, we aren't all trying to re-create 12th
century France.  Learning to live with the peculiar mixtures resulting from
the broad range of the SCA is something we all have to do, and one assumes
that anyone who has been around for more than a few years _has_ managed to
do it somehow or other.  Why should the introduction of fencing come as
such a shock?

(2) The fencers want to change the rules of the game.

From time to time we do hear someone arguing for a "fencing crown", but
(with respect to the honorable fencers) I've not heard it taken seriously
even in the fencing community.  In this regard, my experience is very
limited; can anyone give me a broader perspective?  In any case, Corpora
clearly states that fencing cannot be used as part of Crown Tourney or
anything similar, so the point is moot. 

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:30:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan7.033018.10797
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

>In article <DOCONNOR.92Dec30131637@potato.sedona.intel.com>, doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
>> 
>> pa124548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>> ] In article <> doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
>> ] >Recurves are period. They were the usual bow used by the
>> ] >Turks and the Mongols, as well as other peoples.
>> ]
>> ] Could you document that?  The last time the issue was raised, one of the "
>> ] purists" on this forum screamed bloody blue murder because to him, an "
>> ] authenticist,"  a line of archers with recurves didn't "look mideveal."
>> 
>> Of course I can document it. Find any collection of paintings of Mongols
>> from the period, and every other Mongol will have at least one obvious
>> recurve bow with them. There are some archeological remains too. Recurves
>> were all Mongols ever used, as near as I can tell. Longbows just weren't
>> practical as horseback-weilded weapons, apparently.

  Not only are they period for Mongols and Turks, but for Japan, China and
  (surprise) Europe.  They aren't as common in Europe, though (no surprise).
  Check out a book called "Glossary of the Construction and Use of Arms and
  Armor" wherein you'll find all manner of fascinating stuff on this and other
  subjects.  It's not without its faults, but it's a decent book nonetheless.

  Last time this discussion came up, I posted a few period paintings and en-
  gravings showing the use of recurve bows in Europe (France, to be exact).
  Oddly enough, no one commented on them...  Sadly, I no longer have the
  references (but they were from a book called "A History of Private Life,
  Volume II").

  I do, however, have three "new" ones!  For a book entitled "Hunting Weapons",
  we find reproduced a couple of woodcuts on pages 131 and 132.  Page 132 also
  includes a list of pictures of people with "composite" bows.

  Leonhard Beck, "Der Weisskunig" (1526):  Emperor Maximillian I on horseback
   shooting a recurve at a bird.

  Albrecht Durer, "The Martyrdom of St Sebastian", "The Four Riders of the
  Apocalypse", "St Michael Fighting the Dragon" (c 1500 -- None pictured in
  the book, merely mentioned as showing recurves)

  Olaus Magnus, "Historia de Gentibus" (1555): Shows three guys on skis out
    hunting with a dog.

  Recurves are certainly in period.  'Nuff said. ;)
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ---------------------- Rome didn't fall in a day either ----------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 10:45:14 GMT


 
> I wouldn't call it "resentment", but I liked what I read about the SCA in
> those Amras long ago. It sounded like good clean fun and it saddens me
> when I see how serious it all seems to have gotten.

I would not get too sad. The majority of the people that I know, even the
heralds, are still haveing fun. They seem to be in the SCA because of the 
pleasure found in learning, teaching and simply being with people that they
like. In fact in the seven or so years that I have been involved I can not
think of a single person who was foolish enought to discourage me from doing
anything that I wanted. In fact I would say the opposit. I belive that
encouragement and tolarance are the halmarks of the SCA.

As for that small minority that would have us become restrictive and intolarent
they are found in every organization. I think my computer puts them in
perspective. I push a little button and they are gone.

			Mackenzie.  
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca