HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dege@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dege Jeffrey Charles)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: US soldiers & Somalia
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:00 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota

In <1993Jan4.204700.1@cc.helsinki.fi> mtanskanen@cc.helsinki.fi writes:

#All I know of rifle shooting, is to keep the butt of the rifle *very* close to
#your shoulder.
#Well, every time I see these American peace-makers in Somalia, their rifles
#butt is very high on their shoulders if not really over it. That means
#vertically, of course.
#What I wonder, why, in contrary with my education, one should use his rifle
#like this?

#Maybe I have missed something. But could someone please tell?
#--Marko
#(ok, sig&all still missin')


    I haven't seen the clips you refer to , but...
 
    First, the M16 hasn't much of a kick.

    Second, doctrine in MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) is to
ALWAYS hold the sight picture.  Running, walking, sitting, whatever.  I
saw a Light Infantry MOUT training film (and the 10th is a Light Infantry
division) that stressed maintaining the high position, because you could
maintain the sight picture one handed (while you tossed a grenade through
the doorway with the other, for example.)
 
    Note that this isn't a "line-up the sights" sight picture, but a "put
your eye next to the barrel and stare down it" sight picture.  You aren't
going to get much in the way of accuracy, but you can put a round where
you're looking almost instantaneously.  And in MOUT that's much more
important.
 
   I'm not absolutely convinced that the technique is reliable, but it isn't
something they are doing accidently.

    I saw the film I mentioned during Engineer Officer Basic Course at
Fort Belvoir three years ago, just prior to a weekend trip to Quantico
for MOUT training.  That weekend was almost half of the MOUT training
I've had (not much call for it in the divisional combat engineer
battalion of an armored division.)

    With any luck, there are current or recent light-fighters on the net,
who can pick up with more detail if needed.


+++++++++++++++++++++++

ESSAYONS (we shall strive) - The motto of the Engineers.

Death before dismount - The motto of mechanized troops, everywhere.
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads?
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:54 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Dec30.134200.15155@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#In article <1haactINN4oa@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
#
##
#[Comments about Win 296 deleted for brevity]
##
#
#Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my leafing through a recent
#Winchester Powder catalog, I seem to remember noticing that Win 296,
#Win 785, and Win 680 are no longer listed as current Winchester Powders.

According to the 12th Edition, 452AA, 473AA, and 680 have been discontinued.
WW-785 was dropped from the line quite some time ago, at least before the
11th Edition of their catalog.


#I think that the deletion of 680 is a tragedy (although
#Accurate Arms has a powder (1680) which may well be close (or the
#same)). 


I quite agree about the loss of 680 though. I wonder if Accurate Arms lists
any loads with 1680 for the magnum pistols.

gmk
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Brand recognition test
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:16 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1iacvfINNnuj@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM> doc@webrider.Central.Sun.COM (Steve Bunis) writes:
#Earlier I had asked for some general information on some guns that
#my father has.  I didn't have very specific info. but appreciate the
#replies I got.  I managed to get more details and am looking for any
#information, references, value guesstimates etc. on the following -
#
#MGH - 20 ga./25 cal. double barrel (side by side), 25" barrel
 ^^^can't find this manufacturer
#      	SN# 8694
#
#Herbinet ERQ Leamiens - 16 ga. double barrel, 27" barrel
 ^^^^^^^^ can't find this manufacturer
#	SN# 3117
#
#F (or E?). Dumoulin Co. - 16 ga. double barrel, 28" barrel
  Dumoulin, Ernest located in Herstal, Belgium.  Previously imported
(until 1990) and retailed on a very limited basis by Midwest Gun Sport
located in Zebulon, NC [I don't see them listed in the current
telephone book] (formerly from Ellisville, MO)  Older importation
was by Abercrombie & Fitch - NY, NY.  Most Ernest Dumolin shotguns are
essentially custom ordered firearms with a long list of options which,
in some cases, can easily double the values of models shown below.
Ernest Dumoulin (see Trademark Index [I have no idea what this is])
should be contacted directly to obtain a firm price .  Written 
correspondence should include a SASE (a FAX will be faster).
Prices for various models seem to be $1,000 and up depeding on
model and condition.
#	SN# 62901
#
#J.D. Moritz & Son - 8 x 57 double barrel (over under), 24 1/2" barrel
      ^^^^^^ cant find this manufacturer
#	SN# 8661
#
#Waffen Munition, Leipzig, CHR.FRIEDR.TRIEBEL.SUHL, WH (somehow missed
                                      ^^^^^^^ can't find this
  but J.P. Sauer & Sohn were previously located in Suhl.
#getting the gauge on this one :^{  but would be interested in anything 
#you might know about the maker.
#
#I would guess that all of the above were manufactured in the late
#1930's or early 1940's. 

  I looked in the Blue Book of Gun Values 13th ed, and Gun Trader's
Guide, 12th ed.

--henry schaffer
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Smith & Wesson 627
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:32 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Dec29.205130.8912@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rod Anderson) writes:
#
#
#The 627 that I have seen are marked  on the barrel S & W 357 MAGNUM
#MODEL OF 1989.  They have a 5 1/2 inch barrel with full undrlug and 
#a unflutd cylinder.  They have a round butt.  About 5,000 were made.
#They are a heavy (52 oz) byt accurate gun.
#
#Rod Anderson     rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu
#
#


Yes, and if you hear of a quantity of 4 - 5, I have some friends
who will pay the going rate for NIB's or 99% in box.  Let me know.

B. D. Woods  (508) 691-3475 or e-mail.
From: amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Target Rifle for Sale - Anschutz 1407
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:37 GMT


I've an Anschutz 1407 .22cal standard rifle for sale.  Excellent  
condition.  Match sites with large set of front site inserts (apertures  
and posts), sling, handstop, hard case included.  Trigger is a  
two-stage match trigger, very well adjusted.  Rifle was made in 1972,  
received excellent care, and still shoots better than I ever could.

This is a great first or second target rifle.

$550.
--
Alan M. Marcum
NeXT Tech Support
amm@NeXT.COM
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Possible Import Ban
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:31:20 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns


With the MODERATOR's indulgence:

There was discussion here last week about a possible ban on imported
ammunition when Clinton takes office.

In the Jan 93 issue of "Government Executive" (no, I are not one; I
borrow my boss' copy), it was mentioned that when Clinton takes over
he and his staff plan "a flurry of executive orders". This does not
bode well IMHO as an import ban only requires an executive order.

Followups to t.p.g. if any.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Speaking of .32 H&R magnum
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:44 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Dec30.005222.3620@ncsu.edu>, by hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer):
# In article <1hp7ngINNcc6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
# # ...
# #	~95 gr at ~850-900 fps.  ~180 ft-lbs.   Better than .22 or .32,
#                                                                     ^^
# #but wimpier than anything else (except for that one cursed caliber
# #which deserves no mention: .25 acp).
# 
#   Hmmph!  The ".32" includes the .32 H&R Magnum which has factory ammo
# 85-95 gr at 1100-1030 fps.  230-225 ft-lbs. 
# 

I like the .32 magnum (H&R) and have, apparently, mercilessly overloaded
it in our Dan Wessons (Wesson) and TC Contender.  I got 1400+ fps with the
little 71 gr. .32 auto bullets (FMJ).  I think that comes out near 300 ft-lbs.

What I am wondering is whether it would be possible to convert some of the
European pistols that use the .32 S&W long (?) cartridge to use the
magnum.  I haven't seen many of them and suspect it wouldn't work, but
would like to hear the net's opinion(s) on the subject.  It would make a
nice pistol if it could be done.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: alexank@research.CS.ORST.EDU (Kelly Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: INFO ON GRENDEL P-30?
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:29 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University

In article <01GT6CBOM5UQ8WW1GF@vega.selu.edu>, pusv1305@altair.selu.edu writes:
|> 
|>    Any Info on the GRENDEL P-30?
|> 

	I have one of these fine units, and have taken it out twice
now.  The first time, it didn't like to eject rounds, period.  It was
a nice single shot pistol, but I figured that the +V .22 mag ammo
I borrowed was to blame since I _thought_ that it was case expansion that
was causing the extraction failures.
	So I cleaned it up, polished everything that moved, and tried
again, this time with CCI .22 mag, normal loading.  This second time, it 
would fire and eject just fine most of the time (still the ocasional failure
to extract, say one failure out of 3 shots), but would never feed in a new 
round.  The slide would return and CLICK, nothing.  Cycle the slide by hand 
and it would feed and fire just fine.
	I've done some more work on it, but haven't been able to get out
and try it yet.  It will now eject spent casings that I manually put in
the chamber, but will no longer eject live rounds if you cycle the action
as it did before.  As long as it gets rid of the empties and feeds in
new rounds, I should be happy, right?
	On a positive note, it looks like a good 'spaceman spiff' sidearm
to go with my Calico m-950!


---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Kelly Scott Alexander          alexank@research.cs.orst.edu
	    AI/Parallel Research Suns System Administrator
	      Oregon State University, Computer Science
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:48 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

pafford@polaris.rtp.dg.com (Randy Pafford) writes:

#Question to the net: does anyone know how well brick stops things? I.e.
#is a brick house "bulletproof" to any appreciable degree?  

	I have a chunk of red brick on my desk right now.  It weighs
only a few ounces, and is roughly triangular with dimensions of
1"x1"x0.5".  It was the largest fragment found after shooting a red
brick with a .30-30 Winchester at 25 feet.  The .222 Remington
produces fragments that more closely resemble talcum powder.  The
.45ACP breaks the brick but doesn't disintegrate it as much,
and the .22 merely takes a small chip out of it.  Your milage 
may vary depending upon bullet construction and gun.

	The pistols seem to penetrate the least based upon my
rather unscientific tests, given the same bullet construction.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >
From: jet@cuuxb.att.com (~16DM32200~Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger New Model Blackhawk
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:02 GMT
Organization: ATT/NCR-SSD, System Services Division, Lisle, IL

Does anyone know of a reputable dealer who services Ruger handguns.
I purchased it in 1982 and need a base pin latch spring. Any suggestions
would be greatly appreciated.

Jim
From: chris@MorningStar.Com (Chris Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:14 GMT
Organization: Morning Star Technologies

In article <199301041817.AA07425@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#In article <2381.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes:
##-> Basically, the "favorite" configuration is a lathe-turned
##-> brass projectile with a pointed conical tip, and a chamfered base
##-> .357 Mag         75g 2100 fps
#
## The density of the material is a problem, as it's difficult to imagine
##a 75 grain projectile being worth much against Kevlar.
#  
[snip-o-matic]
#
##...You'd also have lead or
##jacketed lead against the rifling.
#
#I'm not sure: You certainly need a metal softer than steel, but brass
#_might_ be soft enough. If I remember the story correctly, this sort
#of machined brass bullet was tested by the Germans during the Second 
#World War. It was very effective (penetrating the scrap armored car they
#used as a backstop) but far to expensive/difficult to produce for any
#realistic use.
#
## Since I have a lathe and a press, perhaps I should experiment.

Why not simply cast your own lead bullets, changing the alloy proportions
appropriately?  I _believe_ that it you increase the percentage
of antimony, it makes a harder alloy.  A friend of mine experimented 
with this a while back and came up with a hard lead round that gave off
a clear ringing sound when dropped on a concrete floor.  The round was
fired through a bowling pin six times, reloading between each without
resizing the bullet.  HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION: if this was loaded in a 
.44 Mag, .45 LC, or .454 even, it seems to me that it would penetrate 
quite nicely regardless of the bullet shape.

#
#I hope you have the appropriate legal paperwork as well as a lathe: Armor
#piercing ammunition is very heavily regulated...


Quite right.  Neither I nor anyone I know has ever handloaded with the intent
of producing an armor piercing round. The reason for the aforementioned
experimentation was to reduce barrel leading due to cast lead rounds in
Full power magnum loads.

#
#                                                   Frank Crary
#                                                   CU Boulder
#

Chris Miller
chris@MorningStar.Com
From: cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.uc.EDU (Bill Preuss)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AP PISTOL AMMO
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:56 GMT
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248

I have done quite a bit of reading and experimenting with AP pistol
ammo.  The ones I make are for 9MM and .357. - some of the technical
data is as follows:
1. Distance to shoot was 30'
2. Metal plates were vertical and held in a strong wooden framework
3. The 9MM went through 1/4" A36 steel plate
4. The .357 went through 3/8" A36 steel plate
5. BOTH went completly through a threat level II vest including the
   breast plate
6. Recovered steel cores were still very sharp and could be used again
7. Velocities were 9MM 1825'/sec and .357 2310'/sec
8. The bullets are 1/2 jacketed, swaged Aluminium with a steel core
   and weigh 50-55 grs
9. Comments?
Bill Preuss
From: mailrus!gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@uunet.UU.NET (Ben Klausner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Extend HK-91/93 Buttstock?
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:40 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department

loia@leland.Stanford.EDU (David Loia) writes:

#HK makes a bubber butt stock extension. It adds about 1" length and
#it is also wider and taller. Even though it costs $30, it makes that
#blow-back (pardon me: delayed blow-back) HK91 much more pleasant to
#shoot. This accessory is a direct replacement for the plastic butt
#that is already on the HK. No tools or modifications are needed to
#install.

We talked to two different HK dealers, and neither was aware of such a
thing. Do you have any more details? Thanks.

-- 
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  inet: ben@yenta.alb.nm.us     |  N5DJL       | My opinions are my own.
  CI$:  76337,1730              |              | Who else would want them?
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:05:12 GMT

Gohn Gayman on Dillons automatic case trimmer:
 ># they have an automatic, electric case trimmer that mounts in the tool head

 >   I believe this would be possible but difficult. The only place the power
 > trimmer would make any sense is at the resizing station. This is a problem
 > for two reasons. First, you would have to lube all the cases and then

Actually, from the "Blue Press" picture, I thought It was the only thing 
on the toolhead at the time. 

I am somewhat naive about reloading.  So far, I have only read about pistol
reloading, but I thought that if you are taking all this trouble to trim a
rifle case, you would set up the press to resize/decap.  Then you would
remove the lube and polish them, cleaning and deburring the primer pocket.
Then true up the neck and trim to length.

It seems like there is a lot of choices to make on rifle reloading.

[...]
 > physically fit on the tool head with other dies. Keep in mind it has a 
 > rather large vacuum manifold for attaching a vacuum cleaner for sucking
 > off the brass chips. I have my power trimmer mounted to a RL-550 tool

Yes, I used wording that indicated that the vacuum cleaner is built in.  It
is not.

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Gatling Guns
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:59 GMT

Gatling guns are indeed legal to own without the NFA hassle.

There was a company who offered .22LR Gatling guns in various scale
sizes.  I think the cheapest one was @ $1800.

Rob
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .17 vs. .223 for varmits?
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:34 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <1ib0b6INN544@menudo.uh.edu> GWH@UH.EDU (Gregory W Hayes) writes:

###out.  Also a recommendation for a good variable X scope would be 
###appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

#Well, since you're dealing with LITTLE targets, best bet would probably
#be to go for as much magnification as you can afford.  I have a 6.5x-20x
#Simmons Silhouette scope on my Winchester M70 Varminter.  If I remember
#correctly, I spent ~$200 for it.  Leupold, Zeiss, etc, make excellent
#choices, but be prepared to spend.

	Just as a side note: incredible magnification is nice, but only
useful in certain situations.  There are quite a few variable-magnification
scopes on the market, and I find the lower magnification is excellent for
spotting a target or sweeping a field, and the higher magnification is
good for when I'm using a rest of some sort.  Actually, in match
shooting I shot better with peep sights or 3x magnification scope than
I did with 12x magnification scope.  I attribute this to noticing just
how much the gun wavered, and trying to get my shots off at the exact
time the cross-hairs went past the bullseye.  Doubtless I could, with
practice, overcome this, but consistency was best when I just tried for
a good sight picture and kept squeezing while it was steady and didn't
notice that I was on the 8 ring instead of the 9 and tried to adjust.

	For varminting, I'd suggest a variable-magnification scope.
The scope can be traded among guns, and should be applicable to many
more situations.  As always, how you shoot is more a function of you
than of the equipment, but you may find the flexibility to be worth
the extra cost.

	BTW: never, ever use a rifle scope as a monocular at a
concert.  Take binoculars instead.  I took an older scope because
it was far cheaper than my binocs and could be stuffed in a pocket.
Some cop working concert security thought I had a scoped pistol in
my jeans and acted accordingly.  While apologetic once he frisked me
and knew it was just a scope, the whole ordeal was rather scary.
Fifteen years having passed, it could only be more scary now.
Assume, at all times, that the scope is attached to a gun unless
blatantly obvious it is not, and act accordingly.  The cops will.
This is just a note for safety -- let's not let the responses wander
into t.p.g fodder.  The fact that I was attending a Black Sabbath
concert may have mitigated the circumstances, but be careful anyway.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: e-mail to Jim failed :-(
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:56 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9301070642.AA23796@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> you write:
#
#My question is, what do I need to get into reloading? I'm talking low 
#volume .44Mag/.44Spl. and 9mm, with the possibility of .30-30 much
#later (since my rifle has been sitting in its hidey-hole for most of 
#the last year, I can't really justify loading for it now). What kind
#of hardware/supplies/reference materials should I look for, and what
#kind of money am I looking at?
#
#Any and all help would be appreciated via email (with subsequent
#summarization when my news host returns from the upgrade void).
#Since my news host is down, please reply to the following address:


Jim, Sounds like you need a Dillon 550.
Press plus die sets for 2 - 3 calibers about $350 - 400.
Powder measure $40-50.
Caliper $30.
Second hand rugged desk (to mount loader) $0-50.  (Put bullets
and other heavy stuff in drawers to make desk heavy & stable.)
Plastic cartridge boxes 100 @ .50-.75 each $50-75.
Brass from $40/1000 used to $100/1000 new say  $200.

Components:  primers $13/1000, lead bullets $25/500, jacketed
bullets $50/500, powder $12/lb.

Assuming you get ten loadings before the brass case fails -

Brass cost (50) = $0.50
Primers cost (50) = $0.65
Powder cost (50) = $2.00 (quite variable dependent on powder/caliber)
Lead bullet cost (50) = $2.50
JHP bullet cost (50) = $5.00

The cost of a box of SWC's would run about $6; the JHP's would
run about $8.  These numbers are approximate.

If you shoot 20 boxes worth a year of JHP's you can save at least
$200/yr.  If you shoot 100 boxes a year, you've paid for all your
reloading stuff in just a few months, PLUS, you can optimize
loads for different usages rather than relying on factory offereings.

By the way, the Dillon loader is guaranteed forever.

BDW