HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: david-s@hsr.no (David A. Sjoen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Assurance of salvation
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:25:11 GMT
Organization: Rogaland University Centre

Christopher D. Trevino (trevino@hv-3.pa.dec.com) wrote:
> : #########
> : This why we cannot lose our salvation, regardless of whether we turn away or not.
> : #########
> 
>Praise be to the Lord. Of course, if what you say is true, we don't
>have to believe in a God and we don't care about the lives we lead.
>The once saved, always saved attitude is one that keeps the churches
>empty. Why go to church, read the bible, or pray if we are going to be
>saved regardless of what we do with our lives.

Romans 6 addresses this question... There are also serious warnings about
this in 1 Cor 3,11-17. We are saved by grace alone. That means that
n o t h i n g   we do can affect salvation. Salvation is in Christ alone.
Those who reject Christ will perish, those who accept Him are born again
to   e t e r n a l   life. Se my .signature

:)avid

-- 
 __________________ ___________________________________________________
| David A. Sjoen   |"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they |
| Gulaksveien 4    | follow me; and I give them life eternal; and they |
| N-4017 STAVANGER | shall never perish, and no one shall seize them   |
| Norway           | out of my hand." John 10:27-29                    |
`------------------'---------------------------------------------------'
    E-MAIL: david-s@ifi.hsr.no  (Rogaland University Centre, Norway)
From: mpaul@unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why is School Prayer Considered a Moral Issue?
Date: 21 Jan 93 08:23:33 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

If I'm not mistaken, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has an official
position _against_ imposing official prayers in the public schools, and
in every other respect this church body is among the most conservative
theologically in this country.  Not interested in having somebody's
ambiguous theology imposed on folks by the secular authorities, I imagine.
--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
From: jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Tauber)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Simple Question
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:47:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia

Hidden behind your questions is the implication that God would still be
all loving if He had created humans such that they could only obey him and
do nothing else. This implication would be more helpful to address that
your actual question. So may I ask another question:
Which is more loving: Using your power to force all to obey OR
	giving creatures free choice but then picking them when
	they fall?

James Tauber
jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
From: lgolder@hoh.mbl.edu (Robert Golder)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A beginner's question
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:19:20 GMT
Organization: Marine Biological Laboratory

In article <Jan.22.03.47.52.1993.6062@athos.rutgers.edu>, 
ross@cc.gatech.edu (Rosario DSouza, J) writes:
>
> 
> I am a relatively new Christian, and I have the following question.
> 
> Some people tell me that some parts of the Bible should be taken
> literally, and some parts should not. My question is: how does one
> discern which parts are to be taken literally and which should not?
> 
> 
It is helpful to begin by asking God for wisdom and insight regarding your
understanding of the material that you will be reading.  While you read,
there are several techniques which you can use to increase your 
understanding of the text.  Ask the following questions as you read:

1) What does the passage say? (Think in terms of journalism.  What basic
facts are conveyed?)
2) What does the passage mean? (Are there underlying symbolic or poetic
meanings in the text?  In many cases, the passage simply means what it says.)
3) Where else in the Bible is related information to be found?  (Since you
are just getting started, you will not be able to do much comparing of 
Scripture verses.  After a while, though, you will start to see related threads
of information.)
4) Now that I understand this passage, what am I going to do about it?
(Should my life change? Should I avoid a certain behavior?  Or should I feel 
encouraged to continue or even increase a particular activity?) 

These techniques are not original with me, but I have practiced them for
so many years that quite frankly I do not know to whom to give credit.
I hope that they will be helpful to you.

Bob
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Irvingites
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:34:57 GMT

In article <Jan.22.03.39.42.1993.5908@athos.rutgers.edu> jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette) writes:

>I argued with a person last night who was defending the "word-faith" 
>movement with what seemed to me to be an unorthodox Christology.  He 
>tries to argue from Phil. 2 and using "kenotic theory" that Christ 
>divested himself of all divine power and perogatives while living the life
>of a man on earth.  As a man, devoid of divine knowledge and power, he
>lived and exercised miracles by exercising the word of faith -- speaking 
>into being things that are not just as any of us can do (even greater 
>works will we do...).

I am not familiar with the "kenotic theory."  Of course, I am not a word
of faith person.  Many Charismatics do believe that Jesus did empty Himself
of His power and did HIs works through the Holy Spirit.  I tend to agree with
this.  Jesus did say, "if _I cast out devils by the Spirit of God the kingdom
of God is come unto you."  Clearly, His casting out of devils was done
through the Spirit of God, or He would not have warned the Pharisees about
blaspheming the Spirit.  

Jesus did His works thorugh the Spirit, and that is why it is possible for
believers to do even greater works, and also why Jesus could understand the
feelings of our infirmities.  Christ can understand mankind because He lived
as a man.

I do not agree that we can do works by creating things into being with our
words, as though God gave us the power to create out of nothing.  I think 
this is a dangerous notion.

>2.  Edward Irving and the Irvingites.
>
>What do any of you out there know about either of these two subjects.
>I have heard of the Irvingites but know nothing about them.  I am not
>familiar with the Triads.

Irving was a Presbyterian minister in mid-nineteenth century England.
He also believed that Christ performed miracles by the power of
the Spirit rather than through his own divinity.  He also reasoned, at
least in His younger days, that it were possible for Chirst to have sinned
because of this.  I disagree with this, and I think it is a fruitless thing
to argue.  If Christ could have sinned, wouldn't it have happened.  History
only happens once.

The Irvingites were very contraversial.  I read some accounts about how
they practiced gifts like tounges, prophecy, and healing.  I think 
Irving or his followers founded the Catholic Apostolic Church, which is
still around today.  It is interesting to see that these same doctrinal
issues were coming to light a some years before the Pentecostal movement
in America, and yet, as far as I have read, the Irvingites did not
influence the development of the movement over here.

Link Hudson.
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Handmaid (was "I feel threatened...")
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:57:39 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century

shafung@leibniz.uwaterloo.ca (Alan) writes:

>Personally, I think that it's more appropriate to use 'he' for God since 
>when Jesus was praying alone, he addressed God as 'father'.
>Afterall, I don't think we should bind God within the human gender.

If Jesus was praying alone, how does _anyone_ know how he addressed
God?

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive  P a u l   M o l o n e y    "I'm pretty witty and you're itty bitty    pe
james  Trinity College, Dublin     And isn't it a pity the city can't see?   vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien

[It's hard to know the specific reference Alan had in mind.  Jesus
addressed God as "Father" on a number of occasions.  The most relevant
one for Christian prayer would seem to be the Lord's Prayer, since
that's the one case where Jesus specifically taught how to pray.  As
for praying alone, the most likely citation would be his prayer in
Gethsemane.  He went off from his disciples, but presumably they could
hear at least some of what he said.  Perhaps "apart" would be more
accurate than "alone".  Mark makes a point of quoting him as saying
"abba".  While I don't think that the dialogs in the NT should be
taken as if the writers had access to tape recordings, I would think
when they quote phrases in Aramaic, as with "abba", they're giving his
actual words.  --clh]
From: shafung@leibniz.uwaterloo.ca (Alan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Handmaid (was "I feel threatened...")
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:43:06 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <Jan.21.03.51.33.1993.17243@athos.rutgers.edu>

>Warning:  If you are offended by inclusive language, particularly 
>references to God as female, beware.  Ms. Mollenkott intentionally
>refers to God as female to balance the deeply engrained notion
>that God is male.  Personally, I think she is right in doing so.

Personally, I think that it's more appropriate to use 'he' for God since 
when Jesus was praying alone, he addressed God as 'father'.
Afterall, I don't think we should bind God within the human gender.

Regards,
Alan
From: creps@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: In search of Religion
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:24:54 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

>views similar to yours.  Since you're at an educational institution, I
>would think there would be on-campus religious groups.  I'd suggest
>talking to a chaplain or attending services.  I don't know your
>institution, but typically you'd expect to find some kind of
>chaplaincy program for Catholics, and either a joint liberal

   This type of Catholic center at a university campus is called a
Newman Center.  If there's not one at Rose Hulman (the original
poster's school) there may be one at Indiana State (which is in the
same city).

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: rpitts@darth.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT prophecy about praying for CLINTON
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:51:22 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech CERL/EE, Atlanta, Ga

I've got some questions and comments. :-)

In article <Jan.25.01.49.12.1993.11415@athos.rutgers.edu> you write:
>Recently, I read a newsletter written by Paul Cain and Rick Joyner.  
>I hope to later write out some of the highlights of the letter later in
>more detail.  
>The name of the newsletter is the "Morning Star Prophetic Bulletin."

These guys are knows as the "Kansas City Prophets" they have been
closely connected with the Vineyard as of the last two years.  

They don't have a great track record for fulfilled prophecies.

>God showed Cain that what a lot of people had percieved as "waffling on the
>issues" was really Clinton's desire to be open and fair.  God said that
>Clinton was a "listener."  This is a sign of humility.

I'm not acquainted with the Scriptural support for listening being a
sign of humility.  Are you?

>Also, God showed Paul Cain that _if the church will pray_ God will put His
>Spirit on Clinton and change him into a new man.  He will give Bill Clinton
>the Holy Spirit to rule this country.

Bill, has to be the one to humble himself - yes, we can and should pray,
but God also can use a hard hearted man (e.g., Pharoah) to bring about
his will for the world.  

>Like Solomon, Clinton will call out to God for wisdom.  Just as Solomon's

I hope he does.

>first test came over the issue of life, this will also be one of Clinton's
>major issues, not only abortion, but also euthenasia.  If we will pray for it,
>God will give Bill Clinton His wisdom to rule the country.

I think he has shown us his wisdom, it is not God's but the worlds.  

>The newsletter also warns about the spirit of intolerance that has infected
>many right wing Christians.  Though they may be fighting for just causes,
>many have allowed a self-righteousness and hatred to enter their hearts.
>If it continues, God will set His face against it.  We need to stop complaining
>and pray for Bill Clinton.

This is a needed admonition, but not necessarily one that needed prophets
to bring it forth, agreed?

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu  |    Love and Worship God the Father and His Son, 
                      --|--            the Creator of the Earth. 
Pro-Life!          -|-  |  -|-  Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility! |   |   |   before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6
From: lml@proactive.com (Lak Ming Lam)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Help please
Date: 21 Jan 93 09:05:11 GMT

Does anyone heard of an organization with the name
"Biblical Counseling Foundation"?  I would like to know there
address, phone number and fax number.
I am particular interested in the "Self Confrontation Manual" offered
by them.  Anyone have experience with this manual?

Also is there a list of all christian organizations exists somewhere?

Please reply by e-mail as I cannot read the news from this newgroup.
Thanks.

Lak Ming Lam
lml@proactive.com
From: trish.rucker@ehbbs.gwinnett.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Mysticism
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:23:57 GMT
Reply-To: trish.rucker@kingsp.gwinnett.com (Trish Rucker)
Organization: The King's Palace BBS * Canton, GA * (404)781-8435

I would be very interested in discussing Christian mysticism (angels,
saints, etc.) with anyone who shares a similar interest.   I rarely have
access to this Usenet area (it's a long distance call!), so I would
appreciate Internet replies (trish.rucker@ehbbs.gwinnett.com).
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #5373 . Mother of mercy, is this the end of Rico?
                                                                                                 
----
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     The King's Palace BBS * Canton, GA * (404) 781-8435 * USR DS       |
|    Paul Gamber and Paul Gamber III, Sysops  *  kingsp@gwinnett.com     |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: trevino@hv-3.pa.dec.com (Christopher D. Trevino)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Assurance of salvation
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:43:35 GMT
Reply-To: trevino@hv-3.pa.dec.com
Organization: Xerox

#########
When the Lord took away our sins for all time, he cleared the way for
His Holy Spirit to live in us. Could we then die again because we
turned away?  The answer is no, because the only thing that can
separate us from God is sin. And where are the sins of those who are
born-again? They have been taken away by the sacrifice of Jesus once
for all time, for all men. This why we cannot lose our salvation,
regardless of whether we turn away or not.
#########

Randy,

Praise be to the Lord. Of course, if what you say is true, we don't
have to believe in a God and we don't care about the lives we lead.
The once saved, always saved attitude is one that keeps the churches
empty. Why go to church, read the bible, or pray if we are going to be
saved regardless of what we do with our lives.

The God of peace is coming IN a people and in their lives before he
comes for a people. Think of the 10 virgins in Mt 25. Half were
preparing their lives to go with their Lord. The others who were given
the same task, but failed to do so. Those foolish virgins were left
behind. I will use an old comment to explain my position more clearly:
"If you are failing to prepare, then you are preparing to fail."


Denomination: Non-denominational


Chris ...
From: Richter@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de (Helmut Richter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Weizenbaum, Postman, and the Bible
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:24:18 GMT
Reply-To: Richter@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)

I am preparing a lecture on the influence of computing (computing is my
job as software engineer) on society.  It will be held in a circle
whose purpose is the mutual assistance of Christians to live their
faith in their professional environments. I'd like to get some input
from the readers of this group about the Biblical background of what I
have to say.  If it turns out that there is not much said in the Bible
about the topic I am free to leave that away: I am not at all obliged
to provide a spiritual decoration to my lecture - on the other hand it
would be bad to miss the Biblical standpoint if we could have found it
out.

There are different ways to approach the question.  Usually, one
assumes that computers are beneficial to society provided one uses them
in a responsible way.  One would then talk about threats to jobs, to
privacy, or about the danger of a concentration of power. I will
mention some of these problems but not concentrate on them.  Rather I
will emphasize how the use of computers changes our view of the world.
E.g.: Is it okay that we consider a decision rational only if
verifyable by computation?  Is database design the right answer to
being overflooded by masses of unrelated information or do they still
faster have us lose the ability to discern important from unimportant
information?

The idea to concentrate on these aspects has come to me from the books
of Weizenbaum ("Computer Power and Human Reason") and Postman ("Amusing
Ourselves to Death"; this one is not mainly on computing).  In both
these books there is some analysis of how new technology not only
changes our life, but the way we think, and what we consider real and
important. This is not only so for new technologies but for earlier
cultural techniques as well.  (Postman begins another book of his with
a citation from an ancient Egyptian myth where the change of mind is
discussed which would be brought about by the invention of reading and
writing.)

This has led me to the question of how this kind of problems shows up
in the Bible as well. Where does the Bible say anything about
- adopting (or refusing to adopt) tools or cultural techniques
- judging a situation based on values that are inaccessible to
  calculation
- dealing properly with a flood of information?

For the first item, I have some examples but I don't share them now in
order not to direct any reader's ideas into the same direction.  For
the second, I think there must be many examples and I am searching the
most telling ones (those whose discussion would not lead away from the
original topic). For the third, I don't have any scripture in mind.

If you have ideas, please let me know (preferably by email).  If I get
the impression that there might be more general interest, I will post a
summary.

Regards, Helmut
From: ross@cc.gatech.edu (Rosario DSouza, J)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: A beginner's question
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:47:53 GMT
Reply-To: ross@cc.gatech.edu (Rosario DSouza, J)
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Tech

Hi,

I am a relatively new Christian, and I have the following question.

Some people tell me that some parts of the Bible should be taken
literally, and some parts should not. My question is: how does one
discern which parts are to be taken literally and which should not?


..Ross D'Souza
ross@cc.gatech.edu
From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Franky Schaeffer to speak at MIT on Orthodox Church
Date: 26 Jan 93 08:51:45 GMT
Organization: l'organisation, c'est moi

On Wednesday, Jan 27 at 7:30 pm, Franky Schaeffer, the Christian
social critic, novelist, and son of the late Evangelical theologian
Francis Schaeffer, will speak on "The Orthodox Church: America's
best-kept secret" at the MIT Chapel in Cambridge, Mass.

The talk will be preceded by Vespers at 6:45.  Sponsored by the MIT
Orthodox Fellowship.
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Indianapolis c of C (was: Re: Christian Church Disciples of Christ?)
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:32:19 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <Jan.27.00.57.30.1993.3261@athos.rutgers.edu> sl313028@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Christ is ALL Dat) writes:
>The guy that's talking to me won't let up on this asking me
>to his church. also, the chruch's name is Indianapolis Church of Christ,
>but when I first asked him where he goes, he mentioned Disciples of
>Christ. Which one is it? or are some chruches still affiliated with each
>other?

Hopefully a member of the Indianapolis church of Christ will pipe up, but
just in case they're sleeping... ;-)

They are not at all affiliated with the Disciples of Christ denomination,
other than a historical commonality others have pointed out previously.
The member probably just meant to refer to the church members as disciples
(followers/learners) of Jesus.

>IMHO, though it seems to me that if they wanted to espouse Christian
>unity, they wouldn't try to "pull" other people out of their own
>churches.  this seems like spreading disunity.  I also think this guy's
>trying too hard. :) (don't get me wrong, though, I love him, and do know
>he's  dong all he knows to win members (maybe souls, the  church almost
>seems like their trying to meet a quota or something.)

I can speak from experience as one who, in the past, felt like I had to
meet a "quota". It was no fun. It isn't like Jesus. The leaders of the
church don't like us doing it any more than Jesus does. Even so, most of
us come from a background where we learned to base our self-esteem on
our performance, and it takes a while to unlearn it. What we *should* be
doing is "sowing" lots of "seed", and letting God make it "grow".

If you feel badgered, tell the guy, "I feel like you are badgering me.
Could you please stop it?" A little honesty never hurt anyone. If you've
already done this and he *still* bugs you, ask to speak to one of the
leaders of his church and tell *them*. This way, you get him off your
back and he learns to discern when someone is not open to him (a valuable
lesson). I'll bet, rather than trying to meet a quota, he really thinks
you'd like it at the church, and just REALLY wants you to come. ;-)

Mark
-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mdw@violin.att.com (Sun Mailtool Ok)    |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: A beginner's question
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:01:17 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

This beginning point is to discern the form - letter, poem, myth,
history, law etc.  A reliable scholarly commentary should get you
started.
From: eng10205@nusunix1.nus.sg (LING SIEW WEE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: What is a Christian?
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:56:42 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

SM Coons (scoons@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: Howdy all!  I am doing a bit of research for a college group I am in and 
: would like anyone and everyone to answer a few questions for me.
: 
: 1.  What is the defintion of a Christian?
: 
: 2.  What are some things that people do that makes one not a Christian?
: 
: I think e-mail would be easiest for gathering responses, but if you must post
: go right ahead.
: 
: Thank you for your time.
:

A Christian is one who accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour and
Lord. The reason one need to be saved is because he is sinful by very
natural.

People who does nothing is not a Christian!! I.e. a person NOT accepting
Christ is NOT a Christian!!

Wilfred  Ling