Organization:      LOGISTICS INFORMATION CENTER (IC-LOG)
Motto:          FIRST LINE TECHNICAL SUPPORT
Telephone:                 768-8074/8180
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:33:58 KST
From:         DMetcalf%IC-LOG@WALKER-LTT.ARMY.MIL
Subject:      RETRANS & OTHER TOPICS
X-To:         allmusic%auvm.american.edu@vm1.nodak.edu
X-cc:         dmetcalf@Walker-LTT.Army.Mil

Sonia, before I upload my responses, please tell me if my reply of Saturday
(with my address, etc.) made it on to the net... I'm having trouble with my
local host dropping the VM1 address again!

ZZAJ

Sonia (thankfully) continued the "Cage" memorial with the following ideas from
her sister:

>[my sister]: Cage suggests that we clear our minds of music and let sounds be
>themselves.  I sense that he is confusing or misapplying the Eastern
>philosophies which he so admires.  I have chosen a brief stanza from the Tao
 >to Ching that I imagine Cage would point to as justification for, or
 >inspiration for, his compositional philosophy:

>The Master allows things to happen.
>He shapes events as they come.
>He steps out of the way and lets the Tao speak for itself.

I think what your sister *may* have overlooked in her arguments against
Cage's ideas is sub 2 above... 'he shapes events as they come'... if we
"set up" a series of happenstances, keeping our minds clear (as clear as
we can in this age of mental clutter), from an "initial" event, then the
shaping of what happens after the initial event is just as natural as if
the original event had occurred on its own... the "stepping out of the way"
comes AFTER!

ZZAJ


>It certainly sounds very Zen to aim for aimless drops, but here is an easy
>point of confusion.  The Zen Master is supposed to be aimless in that he is
>free of ulterior motives, that he lives each moment fully for that moment's
>sake, not to achieve something. [....]  Whatever you do, you do it fully, with
>all of your mind, not looking beyond for a result.  The calligrapher paints
 >for the experience of each stroke, not to make a perfect product.  Because he
 >is in harmony with the world, any "accidents" that happen will be >harmonious.
  This is not the sa


>Cage, seeing that he cannot control sound, makes the mistake of relinquishing
>control of a musical train of thought as well. [....]

>Cage's attempt to apply Zen ideas to actual compositional methods seems to me
>to result from "thinking about," not "thinking in" music.

I think what your sister *may* have overlooked in her arguments against
Cage's ideas is sub 2 above... 'he shapes events as they come'... if we
"set up" a series of happenstances, keeping our minds clear (as clear as
we can in this age of mental clutter), from an "initial" event, then the
shaping of what happens after the initial event is just as natural as if
the original event had occurred on its own... the "stepping out of the way"
comes AFTER!

I REALLY enjoyed her thoughts on this area, though... any more?

ZZAJ


Also Sonia, I notice you made mention of th' great Roland growing up in
Columbus... is that where you're at?  Are you familiar at all with poet
John M. Bennett?  He works in the Latin Studies department there somewhere
at O.S.U.; talk about "random" & "chance"... I've done a couple of tapes
with him - VERY exciting... SPOKEN chants, if you will!


Then Leonard sed:

>This is probally crazy to you, but it makes me wonder, maybe someone has
>a explanation i can understand. There are artist's who are the tops at
>what they do like miles,coltrane,Jimi.......etc different styles pretty
>much have "the player" of that style, then why do we listen to others when
>we can listen to the top player?

Not crazy at all, Leonard... best analogy I can think of is the one about
eating "steak" all the time... "hamburger" is nice once in a while!

Sonia responded to Leonard's post:

>Maybe this has absolutely nothing to do with John Cage... Maybe Cage,
>instead of "reaching" in quite this same way, was turning it upside down and
>was saying that instead of reaching by himself, he was looking for things that
>would reach HIM.  Over and out. Sonia


GOOD point, Sonia... some of MY best musical/improv moments (while in NO way
on the same level as a Cage or a Jimi) come when NO theory is applied...
they just COME! & that's the way "I" prefer it!

ZZAJ
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