From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Yes, I'm sure.
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Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:23:53 GMT

John Emery (emery@tc.fluke.COM) wrote:

: If you're not absolutely sure that there is an absolute truth, then
: you must admit that there is a possibility that there is an absolute 
: truth.

That logic doesn't follow.  If you'd said:

: If you're not absolutely sure that there isn't an absolute truth, then
: you must admit that there is a possibility that there is an absolute 
: truth.

: Quick, let's jump off now before this ride gets going too fast :-).

Naaah, I have a feeling that this is going to be a fun ride, John! :)

: Seriously, last time this topic was discussed, it seemed that we got
: to a point where people here on the net either said that it was beyond
: our knowledge or it was silently consented that there are actions and
: behaviors that are right or wrong.  For example, cold-blooded murder
: was an action that is wrong.  Deep down inside, we know that there is
: a right and a wrong.  For example, no one here on the net thought it
: would be a good idea to remove all civil law and its enforcement.  And
: civil law sets limits on certain types of behavior.  We see in a practical
: sense that limits to behavior and action are beneficial for us.  
: 
: What keeps us from randomly murdering an innocent person?  What keeps us
: from raping, from stealing, from cheating, from lying?  What moves us
: to love, to care for others, to be kind, to be compassionate?  Isn't
: there something programmed inside of us?  Don't we have within us a sense
: of right and wrong?
: 
: Isn't it also true that these programs can be overriden?  For instance,
: we do things that *we* know our wrong.  Our own hearts are our judge.
: Even though we know something is right, we may fail to do it.  Even though
: we know something is wrong, we may still do it.  And in our heart we know
: the difference.  Sometimes these programs get overriden to an extreme and
: a person may totally reverse their program.  Is that not why we need such
: laws that limit behavior?  Who out there would not agree that it is *good*
: to limit the behavior of a serial killer?  Look at most serial killers,
: after killing many innocent people, they turn around and kill themselves.
: Perhaps there is an overwhelming sense of despair and hopelessness in what
: they had done.
: 
: Just observing what we as humans are like points to the probability of
: an absolute truth.  How many of us live lives of perfect love?  Yet, there
: seems to be this standard apart from what we are not able to attain.  We 
: strive to live up to it, yet we fall short.
: 
: Look at religion.  Religion continually reinforces the presence of a right
: and a wrong.  Sure there are different approaches to it.  Yes, even, in
: the Newage the idea of Karma is upheld.  Basically, if you do what is good,
: good will come upon you.  If you do what is bad, the same will befall you.
: Is that not why the doctrine of reincarnation exists.  This belief says 
: that a person gets many lives to grow and to fix there past life mistakes.
: Yet why would a person need another life in the first place?  Is it not
: because of the failure to live up to the standard of what is right?  Think
: about it.  Look a Wicca, for example.  They teach that which you do will
: come back to you three-fold.  A Wiccan will not associate themselves with
: black magic or satanism.  Why?  Because satanism has perverted right and
: wrong.  So even within paganism, there is a sense of right and wrong,
: although it is seldomly admitted.
: 
: Where am I going with all this?  The sense of right and wrong is so 
: embedded in us that it follows us wherever we go, even when we try not
: to look at it.

I was following your argument until you said:

: Why then would one not want to admit that an absolute truth exists?
: It would seem to me that it is because it would make us accountable
: to the source of this absolute truth, whom we know as God.  God is
: the title of the one who is absolute authority and divinity.

One might not want to admit that an absolute truth exists for several
reasons - (1) they might not believe that an "absolute truth" exists, or
(2) they might prefer not to be limited with such a belief.  There are
other possibilities.

I didn't understand where you made this leap of faith from absolute truth
to believing in "God".  Who says that there *has* to be a source for
what you call "absolute truth"?  Perhaps it's just "what is".

: But were one to consider of this, it would seem reasonable to submit
: ourselves to this absolute authority.  For instance, think for a

Why?  Why would that be reasonable?

: moment, what do we know of absolutes.  Well, we know the following
: to be good: love, kindness, compassion, mercy, caring, fairness, and
: to limit bad behavior.  And know of that which is not good: murder,
: theft, destruction of the innocent, strife, envy, injustice, etc.

That reminds me of the old story about Buddha.  He said that under
certain circumstances, murder could be considered to bestow upon one "good
karma".  Case in point: suppose you were a revolutionary, and had scads of
automatic weapons around, and you got pissed off one night, grabbed your
AK-47 and a couple of mags, and said that you were going to go down to the
local Denny's and blow everyone away in the restaurant.  Suppose circumstances
were such that I believed you, and had absolutely no doubt that you would do
what you said you were going to do.  The Denny's is a block down the street,
and I stuff my Ruger P85 in my waistband and go with you.  You walk in the
Denny's, slap a mag into your AK, chamber a round, set the fire selector
to full automatic, and raise your weapon.  I see the restaurant is full of
people grabbing something to eat after the latest showing of a very popular
movie - in other words, Denny's is *packed*.  At this point I pull out my P85,
jack one in, and put a round just behind your left ear, killing you instantly.

Suppose I take all your guns and hide them over at my house.  I have stolen
your property, have I not?

Now, is murder always wrong?  Is theft always wrong?

: Would it not make sense, that the author of this absolute truth
: (God) be like this absolute truth?  God is loving, kind, compassionate,
: merciful, caring, fair, and judges and limits bad behavior.  And
: what is not good is what God is not like.  And if God is good, then
: it would be quite beneficial to submit ourselves to this goodness.

God is not above murder - read the OT.  God is not above retribution.
God is not fair (read Job).

: Think of Jesus.  He has been the only recognized spiritual leader to
: convince a great portion of the world that He is absolute truth (God).

Are you kidding?  The Western world, you mean.  And just because the followers
of JC (*not* JC himself, mind you) have managed to convert people through
torture, blackmail, threats of violence, theft, etc. doesn't mean that JC is
"absolute truth".  Proof by force is nothing more than manipulation.  You still
haven't convinced me that JC is God, either.  Using "holy books" doesn't count,
either.

Speaking of which, I picked up an interesting little book the other day, called
"Reincarnation: An East-West perspective".  It contains a lot of historical
evidence that early Church fathers taught, and believed in, the preexistence
of the soul and reincarnation.  There is ample proof in the Bible of the
preexistence of the soul, BTW...
--
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
-- 
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
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