HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:23:52 GMT

Jerry Shekhel (jerry@msi.com) wrote:
> Andreas Stenmark (c92andst@odalix.ida.liu.se) wrote:
> :
> : In fact, his statement should be very much true. The '040 uses the same
> : "double clock" technique that exists in 486DX2's. So, to be fair,
> : the '040/25 should be compared with 486DX2/50 (and '040/33-486DX2/66).
> : But even then, the '040 is probably faster than the 486 (depending
> : on application).
> :
> 
> What BS.  The benchmarks posted here showed that a 486DX is slightly
> *faster* at integer performance than a 68040 running at the same MHz.  A
> 486DX2 is *much* faster.  If you're going to flame me for trusting benchmarks,
> please provide a better measurement.

How about other benchmarks? They do give pretty opposite results: an
average 33 MHz 486-clone get's 24k dhrystone 2's when the whole
stinkin benchmakrs executes on extrnal (and internal) cache. HP's 040
system does 36k+. Now you probably say that you can find results
for 486 @ 25 MHz that say it executes 50k dhrystone 2's per second -
it does not however proove anything but the fact that benchmarks do
not proove one anything as they rely very much on the ability of
compilers - hell, I can make a small compiler for my HP48SX-calculator
which optimized Dhrystone- or JarkkoStone-benchamrks or whatever
benchmarks to execute ten times faster than your 66 MHz 486 with huge
caches and whichever stock C-compiler, still I would not call my
calculator as fast as 486.

> : The 486 is not much more than an optimized 386 with
> : embedded FPU. The '040 on the other hand is quite an upgrade from '030.
> : In my opinion, the 680x0 series is much more modern than the Intel CPU's.
> 
> You've been reading too much Motorola PR.  At least the 486 contains
> a complete implementation of the FPU and MMU; the same cannot be said of
> the '040.  What an upgrade.

040 has a complete MMU. Or actually two of them. Also it has dual
caches, data cache with copyback mode, six stage pipeline (opposed to
5 stage one on 486) and so on.
	It's a bit funny how 040 executes several floating point
instructions faster than 486 the comparable integer instructions...
(for example multiplication).

-- 
Jarkko Lindblad         | sleep my friend and you will see
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi | that dream is my reality
------------------------| they keep me locked up in this cage
          - MetallicA - | can't they see it's why my brain say rage
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: An Amigan does it *again* Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 18:23:13 GMT

In article <2120@vall.dsv.su.se> matt-dah@dsv.su.se (Mattias Dahlberg) writes:
>Stephenson Daniel A (das9674@ucs.usl.edu) wrote:
>
>: and I am supposedly not have fun with it on my Incredibly Boring
>: Machine?
>
>Well, how fun is it to program a PC? Not a blast I can tell you,
>especially not when it comes to moving graphics...

It's fun when you are getting paid to do so...  Programming Clones
supports my Amiga habit.  :-)


Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Comdex/Quicktime released for the PC
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:30:41 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <C0DL1G.3t8@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>Umm lets see here...  The Amiga is going to be 9 years old this comming
>>year, and is already emulating IBM 486's at benchmarked 105 Mhz, they
>
>Bullshit pure and simple.  No Amiga can emulate the 486 chip.  You can
>put a 486 chip and use the Amiga for I/O (relegating it to it's proper
>place in the universe) but you cannot EMULATE a 486...not at any
>speed..

Hmm. Don't you know that there are already software emulators for 8088,
8086, and (I believe) 80286? What on world should keep them from extending
them to the 486 command set? As far as I know the differences from one
processor generation to the next are mainly in hardware, needing fewer
cycles for the same command. But that doesn't affect a software emulator!
Ok, there are always also a *few* additional commands, but that doesn't
cut it, no problem to emulate them. I'm perfectly sure that you can put 
together a 486 emulator that works fully compatible with the *processor*. 
What I cannot guarantee, is same speed, of course.

>>You sound like a "PC dork"...  NO mater what kind of info is given to
>>you, the Amiga is not as good as IBM/MAC/Doorstop, because you don't
>>like the fact that is taking over the video production world.

Reasonable :-)

>Sure, an antiquated CISC architecture is going to EMULATE one of the
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>fastest RISC CPUs available today.  You really don't have a clue, do
         ^^^^^^^^
>you?  That emulation would be so slow it wouldn't even be worth the
>trouble!

Now, do I read this correctly? You call the 68k "an antiquated CISC" and
in the same sentence the Intels "fast RISC CPUs"??? That's irony at its
best. All I hear tells me that the 68040 is a CISC processor that has
adopted all standard RISC methods for speeding up the operation. The 486
has similar features, but with one big exception that has been a
misfeature from day one of the x86 family: Its non-orthogonality of its
command set. Orthogonal command sets are one key feature for RISCs, after 
my book, and there is absolutely no debate that the 68k family is far more 
orthogonal (though also not completely) than the x86's with all their 
dedicated, not general purpose registers. So to resume, the 68040 appears 
much more RISC-like than the 80486.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!
From: Ace@auilcs0.UUCP (James Knowlton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:10:34 PST
Organization: Alternate Reality Video Graphics

In article <C0BJCq.MK9@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:

crap deleted...

>    But, all in all, Commodore needs to pay *MUCH* more atrention to the
> surface details.  As the Macintosh has shown, what's under the surface does
> not matter as much if the outside looks really good.
>

Gee, if you say so.  Personally - i like a functional computer better than a
screenful of niceties.  Let's take windows 3.1 for example.  Looks fine on the
outside - is not functional and useful on the inside.  You have a very strange
idea of reality.

-- 
        __
       ///
  __  /// James Knowlton - President & CEO - Alternate Reality Video Graphics
  \\\/// Usenet: uunet!csusac.ecs.csus.edu!citrus!amilink!auilcs0!Ace
   \XX/ Internet: amilink!auilcs0!Ace@citrus.sac.ca.us
From: Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com (Dale Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Mac is not ideal (was Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths)
Date: 6 Jan 93 13:36:26 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <C0F6rC.Ap0@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. 
Barrett) writes:
>    Every program that I have that is oriented toward getting good printed
> output includes its own printer drivers.  This includes PageStream, 
> ProPage, and WordPerfect.  If the Amiga printer drivers are adequate, why 
> does every developer of a graphical word processor or DTP program always 
> include a replacement for the Amiga's printer drivers?

To be fair here, it should be noted that PageMaker on the Mac also 
includes it's own Postscript printer drivers and does not use Apple's 
standard driver (although you can if you want).  I'm not sure about Quark 
XPress.  On the other hand, PageMaker is the only Mac program I know of
that does this - every other application I'm familiar with (inlcuding
a wide variety of graphics and word processing programs) uses the standard
Apple Postscript drivers.

- Dale Adams
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: zarthac@bradley.edu (Matthew Simmons)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 07:31:15 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: cs1.bradley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
: In article <jprad.726772491@faatcrl> jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov (Jack Radigan) writes:
: >  Why must everything be so monochromatic with you?  

: Don't be rude, he's totally color blind.  As a matter of fact, his
: eyes are so bad that UseNet postings have to be Closed Captioned in
: order for him to understand anything.

Well, since UseNet doesn't support Closed-Captioning, I guess that 
explains alot...

: Greg


: --
: (: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
: (: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
: (:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)

--
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Millions of lemmings can't be wrong -- throw yourself off a cliff
Remember to always be a visionary, or someone will do it for you and beat you.

The best Disney girl?  Definitely Belle (BatB)

I hate hicks and farmer boys. I hate everything they stand for, especially the
part about putting food on my table. I can do without the food. I wish all
farmers would just die. I can live off of lawn clippings.  -- Dave Tiberio
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:45:56 GMT+2
Subject: Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
From: harry@elfuerte.fipnet.fi (Harri Pesonen)
Distribution: world
Organization: Fipnet, Helsinki, Finland
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article ??? fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
> 
> 	I saw a 486SX/20 for $599 w/o monitor at a local department store.
> 	I looked over the machine carefuly and begin to notice that I'd
> 	seen toasters ( bread kind ) built better that that, I mean it was
> 	literally thrown together.  I asked the salesman for the straight
> 	poop, and he told me the company that made the machine had gone
> 	out of business and thats why the computer was so cheap.  He said
> 	he'd would recommend it as a second computer, for hacker types I
> 	guess.  I almost bought it, but it was just too much of an unknown,
> 	even at $599.

Two friends of mine have bought a cheap 486 clone.  The first one was ok
except that the Windows hangs the machine now and then.  The second one was
not ok, it's motherboard has to be changed and the Windows doesn't work on
it, yet, but that is probably only because of a missing display driver.

The point is that these cheap 486s are fast and good if you eg. just play
games, but you can't trust on them.  I have had three Amigas, A1000, A2000
and I have A3000 now and I haven't have any problems with them.

-- 
    Harri Pesonen               harry@elfuerte.fipnet.fi
    Helsinki, Finland, EC?      Markka is floating...  1 USD = 5.3 FIM
From: cs_e445@ceres (Vlod Kalicun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 5 Jan 1993 15:33:23 GMT
Organization: Kingston University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ceres.kingston.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) writes:
: 
: 
:      OK Marc, your first post didn't bother me because you presented it for 
: the most part in a "constructive criticism" tone.  However, you seem to have
: at least partially gotten over it and are moving back into your standard
: "bitch, bitch, bitch" mode.

Hmmm.. and I thought it might have been his new year's resolution. ;-)
Regards..

Vlod
-Amiga Advocate.
----------------------------------------------
Amiga - Anything else isn't worth considering
----------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:15:35 GMT

>>Yes, and once the 68060 IS released (probably over a year from now and
>>behind schedule), how long will it take for a stock Amiga to
>>incorporate it.  They are selling PCs that can use the Pentium already.
>
>Don't be such an ass.  Commodore gets info on the 060 early just like 
>the Clone assemblers get info on the 586 early.  As for selling Amigas
>that can use the 060, Commodore has been doing that since the A1000.

So if I want a 68060 based computer, I can buy a A4000 for $2500.00,
throw out the 68040, and put in the 68060...good plan!

How long was the 68060 out before a stock Amiga supported it?

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: zarthac@bradley.edu (Matthew Simmons)
Subject: Re: Will PC Makers Survive Mutimedia?? 
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:17:06 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: cs1.bradley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

What is "multispin"?

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My newsreader is screwed up... Therefore, it doesn't print the machine
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Millions of lemmings can't be wrong -- throw yourself off a cliff
Remember to always be a visionary, or someone will do it for you and beat you.

The best Disney girl?  Definitely Belle (BatB)
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: More on 3DO
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:31:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1j05vaINNjjh
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: cie.uoregon.edu
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Harv R Laser (Harv@cup.portal.com) wrote:
: >PS. Anyone wanting to start comp.sys.3DO  ??  ;-)
: 
: I suggested this to Leo Schwab when I caught up with him at the
: 3DO booth at CES. He said he was seriously considering it. 

   I'm for it.

: (Leo works for NTG (New Technologies Group (RJ Mical, Dave Needle,
: et. al.)) who are devloping 3DO. One of the demos running at their
: booth at CES was a Leo-crafted "Boing! '92" 

   Which one was this? I'm hoping it's not the 486/3DO comparison demo -
Boing! deserves better than that. :-) 

--
| Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)            Stellar-7 (3DO, Sega-CD)             |
| Infinite Laser Dog Development Team    Willy Beamish (Sega-CD, MSDOS CDROM) |
| All opinions expressed are my own.     Space Quest V (MSDOS)                |
| ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu, BIX: ggiles    A10 Tank Killer 1.5, Nova 9 (Amiga)  |
From: alan@xserver.uts.amdahl.com (Alan Bomberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:30:35 GMT
Organization: Amdahl

|>    That has been completely fixed under System 7.  Under system 7, no matter 
|> what program you are running, double-clicking the icon for a document with
|> the program for that document already running will always instruct that
|> program to load the document.  The requester you mentioned never appears 
|> under system 7, and the fix is retroactive to fix old programs as well as
|> new ones.  Nice.
|> 
|> ---
|> | Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
|> --------------------------------------------------------------------
|> "No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
|> is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me

This works at System 6 as well.  I am not sure of earlier levels.  The
application must have the correct Menu configuration for it to work!


-- 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 00:36:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.211833.318@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>
>This is IMHO:
>
>    1. If you're out of space, add RAM rather than VM
>    2. If you have a choice, VM is better than no VM
>
>Notice how the two statements are slightly different.  You seem to agree
>with #1.  Do you agree with #2?

OK, here's my opinion:

For your normal, day to day use of a computer, it should not be swapping.  If
it does under a normal load, you don't have enough RAM, so add more.  However,
sometimes you want to do something out of the ordinary that takes more memory.
It's not cost effective to have enough physical RAM to allow for everything you
might conceivably want to do - if you did, you'd end up using only a small
fraction of your (expensive) RAM most of the time.  For those situations, VM is
very useful and makes sense in terms of cost.

For the objection that it doesn't work well for processing large images which
use a lot of memory, I suggest that, if that's something you do often, then
that IS your normal load, so you should have enough real RAM for the job.  But,
for extra-large images that you rarely have to handle, VM will at least allow
you to process them.

As for slowing the system - if you're using a paged memory management system
to implement MP, you get VM for free.  In other words, if there are no page
faults being generated, because you have enough physical RAM, VM imposes no
extra overhead.  Because MP will be difficult to implement on the Amiga, there
may be some MMU overhead from implementing a VM scheme, but I'm not familiar
enough with the '030 and '040 MMUs to say.  I'd be suprised if any overhead
wasn't negligible.  In any case, it should be something the user can turn off.

>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |


-- 
David Meiklejohn (davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
 - PC's, Unix, and networks by day, Amigas by night...
Currently residing in Mareeba, Far North Queensland, Australia
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3DO news
Date: Sat,  9 Jan 93 12:28:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>Anyhow, 3DO is NOT producing ANY hardware.
[...]
>In other words, I don't see what it has to do with the Amiga at all!

Don't worry, I still think the Amiga is a good buy. I wouldn't let that
stop you from buying one.

TomK@cup.portal.com
Tom Krotchko
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:11:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.213956.19839@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Skip Sauls (skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
>:
>: >But while we're at it, perhaps YOU'd sound less dumb if you could tell me
>: >what an OS is good for without applications.
>:
>: For learning about operating systems.  Minix doesn't have anything in the
>: way of great applications, yet it is fine for teaching an OS course.
>:
>
>What does this have to do with Windows or AmigaOS?  Neither comes with source.

Dude, you didn't say anything about Windows or AmigaOS.  You asked what
an OS is good for without applications and I gave you an example.  Is it
so tough for you to accept that?

>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
>| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
>|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:19:00 GMT

In <C0IxE6.Jy4@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>and figure out how to use it in minutes.  An Amiga -- especially one with the
>default out-of-the-box preferences in place -- is a MUCH more difficult system
>to use.  AmigaOS 2.0 still has not changed much, really.  You have to add a
>lot of PD/freeware utilities to the system and make major changes to the
>preferences to make an Amiga more attractive and usable.

I wonder why Mac people _also_ add a lot of PD/freeware utilities to the
system (and many not-freeware tools as well) and make major changes to the
preferences to make it more attractive and usable.

I wonder why UNIX/X11 people _also_ add a lot of PD/freeware utilities to the
system (and many not-freeware tools as well) and make major changes to the
preferences to make it more attractive and usable.

Could that be a matter of humouring personal taste ?

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Date: 12 Jan 1993 02:36:30 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan11.084101.20427@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>And AmigaDOS 4.0 promises to suck your dick...

WOW.  Now _THAT_ beats arguing with Paula Lieberman 98.6% of the time.
It's about time they added that, poor Marc has been waiting seven
years for that.  Hmm.  Make that 8, now, I believe, since it _IS_ the
new year.  I'll be upgrading the moment it is released, naturally, but
I'm sure there are a lot of developers with ear-to-ear grins on their
faces every day they come into the office.  They'll probably ship with
a pack of 20 anti-static wipettes, too.

I've heard rumors that C= bought BLAZEWHORE from BLAZEMONGER, INC. in
order to add this feature to the OS.  Seems they're adding a program
to every revision they come out with.  :)  (shrug) I don't mind, I
think it enhances the user interface, at least, and it'll do a lot to
make AmigaDOS seem more "user friendly".  As a matter of fact, I'm not
sure it could get much friendlier...

Well, I suppose it could talk dirty and have curves like a Los Angeles
highway, but...

>No, I just happen to be able to differentiate my personal life from my 
>work.  I work on a Clone, program Clones, and have written software that
>has been used on Clones by more than 15,000 people in the last 9 months.
>Yet despite the fact that my boss has bought me a 20" monitor, an SBPro,
>a CDROM, and tons of other goodies, I still prefer my Amiga.

So will I.  :)

Greg

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy