HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: Re: sharing cultures
Summary: It worked.
Keywords: culture,flour,mill
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:43:00 GMT

> I think I have stumbled on what perhaps may be a better way
> to share culture by mail.
> 
> 
> Instead of making a powder or dried flakes for mailing I mixed
> some of the active wet culture with some flour so that it 
> made a thick past or dough and I put this in an envelope to
> be mailed.
> 
> [Intervening text deleted]
> 
> After a while the envelope begins to smell like a nice 
> loaf of bread rising.
> 
> You would know when this one arrives.
> 
> [Intervening text deleted]
> 
> -- 
> --David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
> ___________________________________________________________________
>        member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.


As a recipient of this experimental method, I can definitely agree that
you know when it arrives! ;v)  I really wish I had been there when the
mailman delivered it!  I would only add that a bigger envelope is a must
here.  It gives the ziplock room to squish around.

On a related note, I would like to volunteer for culture bank duty.  I have
received the Bahrain, Russian, Alaskan, and Gold Rush cultures from David
Adams and will be bringing them on-line over the next month or so.  I have
also started a Hautean culture from the local critters.  If you want to get
an idea of what may be in it, I suggest you watch the mad scientist death
scene from "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid"...

On a completely unrelated note, I just bought a flour mill this weekend.
It's a hand cranked gizmo with a metal grinder made by Back to Basics, Inc.
Does anyone have a recommended mail order source for whole grains?  I would
also appreciate any advice on grinding techniques.  Recipes using grains
other than corn, wheat, and rye are also welcome.

-- Chris (from Terre Haute and completely ambivalent about it) Teegarden
cat@acd4.acd.com
2623 Cruft St.
Terre Haute, IN  47802
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: Wondering about milk...
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:38:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.150138.1365@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> steveve@ecs.comm.mot.com (Steve Veeneman) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.045122.15468@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au> cmurray@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au (Christopher John Murray) writes:
>>
>>     And as to the milk question.. I was told that you cannot use pasteurised
>>milk for your starter, as it won't contain the bacteria you are supposed to
>>be culturing.  I used normal shop milk (homogenised and pasteurised) and it
>>seemed to work okay.
>>
>
>I have been making yogurt constantly for 17 years, and I really suspect that
>normal store-bought milk contains antibiotics that make cultures difficult to
>grow.  I have great luck with nothing more than powdered milk and any kind of
>water that has the chlorine removed, distilled or otherwise.
>
>Somone else posted recently that they use powdered milk for yogurt and I think
>the reason might be that the antibiotics evaporate in the milk-powdering
>process.  Does anyone know more about this?  Thanks in advance...
>
>-- 
>steveve@comm.mot.com   Steve Veeneman   (708) 576-9081 Motorola LMPS

We make yoghurt on a regular basis, and we don't have any problems at
all, i.e. the yoghurt turns out great..I like a little homemade peach
jam mixed in!  :*)

We just use regular 2%, store-bought milk.  We first heat the milk just to
boiling, then let it cool (covered) to about 95 degrees, then mix a couple
of teaspoons of regular yoghurt (originally store-bought) into it.  Proof
in stainless steel containers wrapped in towels for about 6 hours at around
95 to 105 degrees.

Brian D.


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: livings@unislc.uucp (Ross Livingston)
Subject: Re: Request for French Bread Recipe
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:51:04 GMT

David Adams (dadams@cray.com) wrote:

[ happy story deleted]

: back up to 7:30 am:  I started a second loaf with the culture that had been
: left out over night.  This time I used no milk but 2 cups of culture.

You didn't explain the differences between these two loaves.  I'd be interested
in hearing about the taste, texture, crust, etc contrasted for these two
loaves.
-- 
Ross Livingston
livings@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Request for French Bread Recipe
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:05:41 CDT

In rec.food.cooking 

 petersen@ccad.uiowa.edu (Andrew D Petersen) writes:

>                            And does anyone have any good french bread recipes?

The loaf I made this moringin came awful close to perfection.  ;^) 

(I thinkit beats any loaf I ever bought.)

Here's what I did:

6:00 pm:  Removed Alaskan culture from fridge.  Poured 1 C cold culture into a
measuring jar.  Mixed with 1 cup cold milk.  (I would normally use water
instead of milk, but I hoped the milk would help the lactobacilli make
things get a little more sour.)  I added 1/2 cup of flour and water to the
culture jar, stired and set aside for later.  

I poured the starter & milk into a large tuperware mixing bowl and added 1 t salt,
3 Cups of quality bread flour, mixed & kneaded until the dough passed the stretch
test.  Then I formed it into a ball and set it back into the bowl to rise.  

3:40 am:  I got up in the middle of the night to move the dough on to the second
rise.  The temperature had been right about 70 deg F.  The dough had over risen
slightly, I intended to make up for this a little on the second rise.  I gently
pressed the air out and slowly folded the edges under again and again to move
the micro-organisms into contact with fresh food.  Then when I was satisfied with
the shape of the loaf I set it into the center of a greased 12" Dutch oven. and
put the lid on.

8:00 am:  The loaf had risen sufficiently.  I put the Dutch oven into a pre-heated
oven at 425 deg. F. for about 50 min.  The crust came out perfect and dark golden.
I am of the opinion that the Dutch oven  keeps humidity in, acting like the 
special steam ovens used for French bread.  

back up to 7:30 am:  I started a second loaf with the culture that had been
left out over night.  This time I used no milk but 2 cups of culture.




--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
From: garyp@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Gary R Pimm)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Wood's book, etc.
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:57:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekig7.6671
Reply-To: garyp@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <16849B599.M23231@mwvm.mitre.org> M23231@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.175357.13756@acd4.acd.com>
>cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) writes:
> 
>>Well, I got my copy of "Sourdoughs from Antiquity" by Dr. Wood on Friday.

>Would someone please e-mail me the address for ordering this book?

>Thanks,

Please post the address so that all us lurkers that read this group have a
chance to order this book.

Reading this group has had a effect on me already. This afternoon before
coming to work I mixed up some flour and warm water to see if I could 
"catch" some of the right beasties to make sourdough.

Thanks

gary
garyp@tekig5.pen.tek.com
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: kneading stretch test discovery.
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:56:55 GMT
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.


Here is a discovery I made this very morning before comming in to
work:

In "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" a test is given to determine 
whether or not you are done kneading dough.  That is you stretch
the dough and if it will stretch paper thin you are done.

This worked fine for me when I was following her instructions for
a whole wheat bread, but when I tried it with my white bread I 
had problems.  I usually make the white dough not nearly as wet
as she recomended for the whole wheat.  After all it usually 
rises ok, and I am trying to avoid the difficult sticky knead.

The problem this poses for me is that the dough is a little more
rubbry in this not so wet state, and when I try to stretch it
thin it just won't take it.  I can get it to the thickness of
cardboard and then it rips, no matter how long I knead it.

Then this morning I discovered the secret.  I just need to
handle the stretch test a little differently.  

Instead of grabbing a corner and trying to pull I need to 
take it very slowly.  Grab the whole dough wad, and grabbing
it in two hands slowly and gently squese a flat spot in
the center like I am beginning to stretch the dough out 
to make a pizza crust.  After the first squeze-tug let 
the dough relax a bit.  It will recoil and try to assume
its original shape.  Then give another gentle tug-squeze
just like when you are shaping the pizza dough, and let it
relax.  Repeat this, carefully and slowly just like for 
stretching the pizza dough, only you don't stop when you 
get to the thickness of the pizza dough and you don't stretch 
the whole wad out flat, just an area.  It will keep going 
until it is indeed paper thin.

I discovered that I could quit kneading after about 1/3 of the
time I had previously supposed.  (10 or 15 min for one loaf
instead of the 30-45 min I was doing and never meeting the
test before.)  Needless to say this makes it much easier to
make a loaf.  The effort to knead a loaf is much less than
I had suppossed.


It sure took alot of words to say something so simple.  :-(





---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp))
Subject: Re: kneading stretch test discovery.
Reply-To: Gary Fritz <fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com>
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:35:28 GMT

dadams@cray.com (David Adams) writes:
: Instead of grabbing a corner and trying to pull I need to 
: take it very slowly.  Grab the whole dough wad, and grabbing
: it in two hands slowly and gently squese a flat spot in
: the center like I am beginning to stretch the dough out 
: to make a pizza crust.  After the first squeze-tug ...
: 
: It sure took alot of words to say something so simple.  :-(

Unfortunately I'm still confused.  :-(  I'm trying to envision what a
"squeeze-tug" is, and not having much luck!!  I don't understand why
you have to grab the whole wad of dough, or whether you're squeezing
(i.e. trying to press the dough flat) or tugging (like you were trying
to stretch it to paper-thin-ness), or what.

Try again?
Gary
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Bread machines
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:40:41 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

>In article <Bt6ryI.FrA@fc.sde.hp.com> fritz@hpfcbig.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz (tmp)) writes:
>
>   This confirms a suspicion of mine.  We have the Welbilt R2D2 model, and
>   I've always been fairly disappointed with the quality of the bread.
>   At first I thought maybe it was the recipes, or something, but I've tasted
>   bread made with the same recipes in other machines (Hitachi, Zojirushi, etc.)
>   and it was MUCH better.
>
>   Apparently the Welbilt (in addition to the problems I've had with mine of
>   burning the crust, gooey/doughy centers, etc.) just don't make good bread.
>   Bummer.

I have one of the DAK/Welbilt R2D2 breadmakers for a couple of years.
I didn't buy it, it was a gift from my Dad who knows I like to bake.

I have had no trouble with mine and use it with a wide variety of
recipes. I do have some special tricks to get good rye, whole-wheat, etc,
but just dumping in DAK's plain white bread ingredients before bed and
punching the "bread at 7:00 AM" button also works fine for me.

I have had no problem with under/over-cooking or bad crust. The
flavor is no problem, but I do notice a mild plastic/polymar smell
in the bread just after baking (this after a couple of years to burn
off manufacturing gunk) that goes away after 6 hours or so.

Perhaps the fact that I live at 6500 MSL has and affect?

I would love to find some sourdough procedures for this machine.
I say procedures rather than recipes because I believe that the
normal recipes will work like a regular oven. Getting the proper
rise times and kneading will be the trick.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cherry10.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Wondering about milk...
Originator: dadams@cherry10
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:37:42 CDT


In article <1992Aug13.150138.1365@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, steveve@ecs.comm.mot.com (Steve Veeneman) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.045122.15468@cam.compserv.utas.edu.au> cmurray@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au (Christopher John Murray) writes:
> >
> >     And as to the milk question.. I was told that you cannot use pasteurised
> >milk for your starter, as it won't contain the bacteria you are supposed to
> >be culturing.  I used normal shop milk (homogenised and pasteurised) and it
> >seemed to work okay.
> >
> 
> I have been making yogurt constantly for 17 years, and I really suspect that
> normal store-bought milk contains antibiotics that make cultures difficult to
> grow.  I have great luck with nothing more than powdered milk and any kind of
> water that has the chlorine removed, distilled or otherwise.
> 
> Somone else posted recently that they use powdered milk for yogurt and I think
> the reason might be that the antibiotics evaporate in the milk-powdering
> process.  Does anyone know more about this?  Thanks in advance...
> 
> -- 
> steveve@comm.mot.com   Steve Veeneman   (708) 576-9081 Motorola LMPS


Cow's milk comes naturally with a lactobacilli and will make a natural
soured product.  I suspect this is what the original poster had in mind.
Pasteurization would kill this bacteria.

I have never heard anything about dairys adding antibiotics to milk.
I have made yogurt with both powderd milk and whole storebought milk.
I had no difficulty either way.  (Except that I cooked the yogurt once
when someone turned the oven on.  :-(. )





-- 
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.
From: artc@bacchus.Atex.Kodak.COM (Art Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: bread machines
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:29:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: APS.1992Aug17.212952.1795
Reply-To: artc@bacchus.atex.kodak.com
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: Atex Publishing Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug14.213341.20746@nmsu.edu>, ray@nmsu.edu (Ray Mines) writes:
|> Some friends asked me about bread making machines: Are there any good
|> ones?

Yep.
|> 
|> They want to make great bread without any work.  They want to put
|> the ingredients in the machine, go to bed and awaken to great bread.

Admirable goals. Good bread doesn't require suffering.
|> 
|> The one loaf I had from such a machine was not very good so I told
|> them that there is no such machine.

Well, your sample size may have been a trifle small.
|> 
|> Has anyone had a good experience with one of these machines?
|> --

Yes. They work. 

A few people have posted complaints or reservations about the remaindered
machines DAK sells, but I don't think there are any major brands to avoid.

I know the Maxim and Panasonics work just fine.

Like most other food preparation tools, a lot depends
on the recipe. There are several good cookbooks out there...

-- 
Art Campbell          artc@atex.kodak.com            72227.1375@compuserve.com
   DoD 358                                  _Real_ BMWs have just two wheels.
    "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent 
     and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
                      All the usual disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: Wood's book, etc.
Summary: condition of "second"
Keywords: Wood,book
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:53:57 GMT

Well, I got my copy of "Sourdoughs from Antiquity" by Dr. Wood on Friday.
As I said in an earlier post, his company was selling "seconds" for $15.
They were supposed to have minor defects that made them unsuitable for
regular sale.

The copy I received had two or three stickers on it that had been partially
torn off and the cover had an 1/2 inch tear along the edge of the spine at
the top.  Other than that, the book was fine.  If all other copies are in
this good a shape I'd highly recommend purchasing one.  The information on
sourdough cultures and the recipes make it well worth the price.

-- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com)
From: ray@nmsu.edu (Ray Mines)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: bread machines
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:33:41 GMT
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

Some friends asked me about bread making machines: Are there any good
ones?

They want to make great bread without any work.  They want to put
the ingredients in the machine, go to bed and awaken to great bread.

The one loaf I had from such a machine was not very good so I told
them that there is no such machine.

Has anyone had a good experience with one of these machines?
--

Ray Mines

New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, New Mexico 88003
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: bread machines
From: sallyh@StarConn.com (Sally Holmes)
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:04:12 GMT
Distribution: rec.food.sourdough
Organization: Starnet-Public Access UNIX--Los Altos, CA  415-949-3133

ray@nmsu.edu (Ray Mines) writes:

>Some friends asked me about bread making machines: Are there any good
>ones?

>They want to make great bread without any work.  They want to put
>the ingredients in the machine, go to bed and awaken to great bread.

>The one loaf I had from such a machine was not very good so I told
>them that there is no such machine.

>Has anyone had a good experience with one of these machines?

Yes, I'm the happy owner of a bread machine. Is there an FAQ on
machines? This is the second question about them in less than three 
weeks.

If there isn't an FAQ, Ray, please email me and I'll send you
information about my bread machine.

Best wishes,
Sally Holmes
sallyh@starconn.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies)
Subject: Re: getting starter in Australia ? 
Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Melbourne
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 02:07:47 GMT


rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) writes:

>I have been reading this news group for a while,
>and am pretty keen to try, but where to get
>a starter from ? I went to the firebrand bakery here
>in melbourne which bakes only sourdough bread,the best
>in fact, hoping to get some of their starter, but understandably 
>they wouldn't part with any of it. Is there anybody in Australia
>taht would shre their starter with me ?????

As Deb Rech wrote in her response to your article, she mailed me four of
her starters from New York.  They arrived safely, having been opened--and
PASSED (!!)--by Customs.

Now, honestly, neither Deb nor I half-expected them to get through.  I was
particularly tickled to see how they appeared:  off-white powder in little
baggies labelled "Egypt", "Alaska", and so on--what a giggle!  But pass they
did.

Now, I am happy to share these starters.  If you're interested, you Aussies,
please email me at brent@syacus.acus.oz.au.

--Brent
From: pollard@milton.u.washington.edu (Ken Pollard)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: made my own starter yeah !
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:19:25 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) writes:
>Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all.
>I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles
>started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite
>vigerous.
>
>In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the 
>new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature
>enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?),
>
>I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ?
>
>RYE
>
>r.senjen@trl.oz.au

Bread takes practice, but you should be able to start making sourdough
pancakes now.  Here's a simple recipe I use --

The night before, mix one cup starter, one cup flour, a bit less than
one cup warm water in a medium to large bowl.  Cover loosely (I just 
place a plate on top of the bowl), and let sit in a warm place 
overnight.

(Don't forget to replenish your starter by adding flour & water
to it too.)

In the morning, about 1 & 1/2 hours before breakfast, mix in one egg,
1/4 cup milk, roughly 2 tablespoons cooking oil (to keep the pancakes
from sticking to the griddle), 2 tablespoons sugar or oil, and one 
teaspoon salt.  Now let this sit for an hour to an hour and a half.
It will become foamy.

Heat up the griddle until it's hot. To test for proper temperature
of the griddle, throw a few drops of water on it.  The drops should
dance frantically before evaporating.

Now spoon out the batter onto the grill.  I make my pancakes
roughly sand-dollar sized (maybe 4 inches diameter).

If you can't afford the extra hour & a half rise-time in the
morning, add a teaspoon of baking powder with the other ingredients,
and cook right away.

Now eat up.  Try a few without syrup, butter, or anything, just to see
how your starter is doing.

I don't think you need to wait 6 weeks to make bread.  After years of
using my commercial-yeast-based sourdough starter, I just began a starter
using flour, potatoe water, and honey (2 cups, 2 cups, 2 tablespoons).
Now on the third day, it's settling down to a good sourdough aroma.
I plan to use it for bread-making within the week.  

The only reason I can think of waiting 6 weeks (or 6 months, or a year)
is that the flavor develops over a long period of time.  That gives
you something to look forward to.

Ken Pollard, Seattle
pollard@u.washington.edu
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Request for French Bread Recipe
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 18 Aug 92 10:04:20 CDT

In article 9771@unislc.uucp, livings@unislc.uucp (Ross Livingston) writes:
|David Adams (dadams@cray.com) wrote:
|
|[ happy story deleted]
|
|: back up to 7:30 am:  I started a second loaf with the culture that had been
|: left out over night.  This time I used no milk but 2 cups of culture.
|
|You didn't explain the differences between these two loaves.  I'd be interested
|in hearing about the taste, texture, crust, etc contrasted for these two
|loaves.
|-- 
|Ross Livingston
|livings@unislc.slc.unisys.com


At the time I wrote I hadn't finished it.

Anyway, I ended up trying to go for a third rise with that one.  I'm always
trying to do some other experiment.  ;^)  Any way it didn't work very well
at all.  It got smelling very alcoholic and it didn't rise well.  The 
bread seemed to tear apart and the gluten webbing just didn't stick.  I assume
this is the condition known as "over ripeness" of the dough where the yeast
has over-processed the gluten.  It's compost now.


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.