From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<dfs.712520924@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<dfs.712591270@ro>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:21:39 GMT

In-reply-to: dfs@doe.carleton.ca's message of Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:01:10 GMT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<dfs.712520924@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
	<dfs.712591270@ro>
Distribution: 

-In article <dfs.712591270@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
-
-Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
-Path: cs.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!dfs
-From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
-Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
-Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
-References: <dfs.712351333@ro> <1992Jul30.130347.11477@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> 	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> 	<dfs.712520924@ro> <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:01:10 GMT
-Lines: 113
-
-In <LERNER.92Jul31092626@division.cs.columbia.edu>
-lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
-
->>In article <dfs.712520924@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
-
->>Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
->>Path: cs.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!dfs
->>
->>Well, Sam, there comes a point where we have to ask ourselves this
->>question: At what level does our duty for concern over others begin
->>interfering in our own lives to an undue level?  Now, I'm perfectly
->>willing to live without patrilineal descent, because I think that in
->>that instance, the concerns over divisiveness outweigh whatever
->>benefits we think patrilineal descent may bring.
->>
->>But when a minority of people tell an elected government what to do,
->>then I have to say no.  That minority is demonstrating contempt for
->>democracy.  Again, let me stress - I have no problems whatsoever with
->>the Halachic rules for determining who is Jewish.  But I do have
->>problems when the religious authorities force a secular government to
->>abide by those rules.  Because, much as some may dislike it, Israel
->>does not claim to be a theocracy.  It is supposedly a democracy.  And
->>in this instance, the religious establishment is undermining the
->>democracy, making the claim to be the "only democracy in the Middle
->>East" that much harder to support.
-
->  Who are you calling a "minority demonstrating contempt for
->  democracy"?  We do not have mob rule either.  Are the Justices
->  in America a "majority"?  No, they are a minority of highly
->  trained discerning individuals who have been selected for special
->  qualities.
-
-That is, of course, a false analogy.  First of all, the Justices in America
-are selected as part of the legal system.  They are ultimately answerable
-to the American Constitution.  The Orthodox religious establishment is
-answerable only to G-d, not the State of Israel.
            ====

 ONLY to G-D?  This would seem to me a higher authority.
 The Rabbonim are, and always have been, selected on the basis of their
 merit by the Gedolim (State enforced assignments aside).  There are 
 rigorous standards and excellence must be demonstrated both in knowledge
 and in character.

-
-Secondly, the Orthodox Jews in Israel are not "highly trained discerning
-individuals who have been selected for special qualities."  They are just
-ordinary people, the same as anyone else.  The majority of Israelis had
-no say in selecting them.
-
  And many US justices are APPOINTED officials l'havdil.  Yet America
  is the greatest country in the world.

->  If their actions are not what the "majority" wants it 
->  does not mean the Justices are contemptuous of democracy.  Can an 
->  elected government overturn the laws of physics even if a majority
->  wants to?
-
-What IS your point??  Are you saying that two Ethiopians who want to marry
-must first be "converted" and then married in a totally alien ceremony?
-Is that as immutable as the laws of physics?

 And you are saying people should do whatever they like!  There are standards
 and practices that are well within the reach of all Jews.   By the way,
 is the ceremony "totally alien" to them?  Probably not, since by many
 accounts there is no question at all about the background of these
 Jews;  many of their practices are very similar to the "mainstream"
 practices.  By the way,  the drawing-in of the Ethiopians now is a far 
 cry from earlier practices by secularists.

-
-(Besides, Torah overturns the rules of physics by proclaiming that
-pi=3. :-))
 The Torah recognizes this as an approximation and uses more accuracte
 estimates when it is necessary and appropriate. 

-
->  So, it seems there are limits to what a majority vote
->  can do.  
-
-I agree.  I said before: I have no problem with the O doing whatever
-they want.  But why should they force it on others?  Why should a secular
-government listen to 15% of its constituency and ignore the wishes of
-85%?

 You are endorsing anarchy!! You think that everyone should
 just do what they want without regard to the basic rules.  A majority 
 rule does not make a correct practice. 

-
-Let me give you an example which will hit home: Suppose the American
-government decided that only religious marriage ceremonies were
-acceptable.  Suppose they did a survey, and found that most Jews liked
-the Conservative movement best.  Suppose that they then made it
-illegal for any rabbi other than a Conservative rabbi to perform
-marriages.  How would you feel?

 Such things and worse have been inflicted on our people, and we
 have held fast to our Religon. 

-
->  If there is a government and state in Israel it should be for all
->  Jews.
-
-Exactly.  And currently, the government of Israel discriminates against
-non-Orthodox or non-observant Jews.  This is manifestly anti-democratic.
 
  Your conclusion does not follow from the imposition of standards
  that protect the rights of everyone.
-
->  Err, excuse me if this is a shocker, but that should include
->  the Orthodox Jews (and the "very Orthodox", "the "careful Orthodox",
->  the "practicing Orthodox" the "dedicated Orthodox" and the "loving
->  Orthodox").  At this time in history, when so many Jews are ignorant
->  of their religion,  when  we have school children who know more about 
->  other religions than about Judaism,  and when these things have 
->  happened in the name of "majority rule" then one must take a good hard 
->  look at whether the majority is ruling "justly".   The majority rule 
->  must be within the bounds of Justice,  and to me this means it is
->  defined by the Halacha.   
-
-Well, then, you'd rather have a theocracy.  But Israel is a democracy,
-and democracy and Halacha are incompatible.  Why don't you be honest and
-admit it:  You would applaud the collapse of democracy in Israel if a
-religious Jewish state emerged as a result.

 I would applaud the adherence to Halacha in a democratic state.  

-
-(And it's also easy to work against a democracy while sitting comfortably
-in the U.S. where you know your rights will be protected.)

 I completely deny the preposterous calumny that you audaciously
 claim;  it is quite indeed testimony to your depravity.  To
 even suggest that I would do such a thing is a total distortion.

-
-But what makes you think a religious Jewish state would be any more
-successful than a religious Islamic state?  We've seen time and time
-again that in the modern world, religion and politics are explosive
 In the interest of shalom I will not discuss the Islamic states.

-
->  The Halacha is totally in keeping with the needs and desires
->  of the majority and indeed of ALL Jews;  the ways of the Torah
->  are pleasant, and if people would just follow the Torah we have 
->  been promised a land of Milk and Honey.    
-
-I think you'll have a hard time convincing 85% of Israelis that.  If
-Halacha is so pleasant, why do so many reject it?

 Most of those who reject it are simply and innocently misinformed.
 The early socialists had alot to do with this, not democracy. 
 As I stated,  it is tragic when Jews know more about other religions
 than their own.  The loss of an educated Jewish population could G-d
 forbid make Israel into a State like any other,  simply one
 with people whose parents were Jewish.  We would then (G-d forbid!)
 be out of touch with the tremendous spiritual strength that has 
 allowed us to survive and to thrive.

--
/M