From: giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: [POL] Re: Reply to Giao Tien Vu
Date: 16 Aug 92 23:52:03 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

I tried to argue with Garrick from non-flammatory manner.  Obviously,
he did not attempt to do so (even though he claimed that he gave
constructive criticism).  I have a few rebuttals that I would like to
make.  I hope that to Garrick and most people, the rebuttals would not
be considered flames (even though, at some point, I was definitely
on flame :-)).

If you don't like anything remotely like flames, please skip this message.

In article <1992Aug13.202308.5345@kpc.com> garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le) writes:
>
>giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu) wrote:
>
>>Thanks for the sensitive use of "perhaps."  Basically, both
>>of us are discussing using the existing data, but our interpretations are
>>very different.  The question about who is misguided will probably never
>>be answered because life does not let us experiment.
> Everyone is born different.We should all learn to accept our differences.
>Nevertheless,it is sensible differences within reasonable limit that are
>tolerated.When difference is due to ignorance,silly stubborness,then it
>should be criticized.

Am I ignorant?  Stubborn silly?  Thanks for pointing out.

> Unlike Giao,I surely hope there will be an answer forthcoming regarding
>the embargo.Let keep our hope that there will be light at the end of the tunnel.

>
>>That's pure speculation.  How do you know that it would happen?  Most of the
>>HO people I have talked to in the last few years have one common agreement:
>>life has been better in the last few years.  And that was without lifting the
>>embargo.
>
> On the contrary,most of the HO and ODP folks I have talked to definitely
>think otherwise.There could have been more relaxing ruling for business
>venture but it is just a disguise to foreign countries so that the embargo
>would be lifted.How do we know if the VC gov't would not revert back to
>their old selves once the sanction is ended.On the same basis,I can declare
>your statement pure speculation.
> There is a saying that I have found to be absolutely truthful: "DO NOT LISTEN
>TO WHAT THE COMMUNISTS SAY,JUST WATCH CLOSELY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE" or originally
>in Vietnamese " Du+`ng nghe nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n no'i ma` hay~ nhi`n ky~
>nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n la`m".I feel sorry that some people are gullible enough
>to fall for commies trap.

Who fell into the Communist trap?  Through his comments, Garrick could
not deny my main point: life has gotten better.  He used the same old
"it's a Communist trick" claim and accuse me of speculation!

>
>>If you have read the news lately, the foreign governments are pressuring
>>the Vietnamese government to fully implement the free market.  What does it
>>mean?  It means that the employees can be free to work for any company that
>>they want to.  Without going through the Vietnamese government, without
>>paying the bribes that you're afraid of.  Foreign businesses are not
>>stupid.  They know that unless they get the Vietnamese government off the
>>backs of the workers, they would not get an efficient workforce.  They
>>know that if the bribings continue, they will have to pay the bribes
>>themselves.
>
>Well,unless the level of corruption subsides considerably,there is not much
>reason to do business in VN.All recent news,reports have indicated otherwise,
>i.e gov't bribery has been increasing more and more as time goes on.These
>corrupted individuals just want to make a killing while they are on power.

Well :-), your point is hardly a rebuttal of my statement.  Once it's
unbearable, businesses would leave.  Look at South America a few years
as an example.  It's the law of nature.  Again, people are not stupid.

>
>>>As far as international aid goes,with the bureacracy of VN,the international
>>>organizations have little control over how it is going to be distributed.
>>>We know too well who the boss is in VN,don't we?
>>
>>There's always problem initially.  Once the international organizations
>>are established in Vietnam, good luck to any effort of the Vietnamese
>>government to control the aids without having all the aids being
>>withdrawn!
>
> How can organizations establish themselves when there exist so much
>bureacracy and corruption? After all,Giao is a good theorist but
>his way of implementation remains to be seen ?Similar to the infamous
>communist Lenine,they are decent theorists but disastrously horrible
>and bloody implementers ,except I have not seen much action from Mr.Giao
>just his "loving " words.Until I see some demonstrations from Mr.Giao,
>I prefer to remain skeptical.

I accept this criticism.  One of my problems was that I have not done
anything much in social works.  However, I don't have any desire for
political position and do not seek fame in that route (not that I don't
want fame ;-)).

>>
>>>  I really wanted to stop this thread but I can't help elaborating further!
>>>Look at what happened in China as a good example.After all these years of
>>>foreign aids and economic assistance,even being the most favorite trade
>>>nation granted by the Bush administration,how is red China doing? How
>>>democratic has it become?Tienamen (spelling ?) Square is the most eloquent
>>>example of the state of democracy in China.Just a bloodbath of inspired
>>>students and people whose wishes were really simple ,one lots of us overhere
>>>have taken for granted ,namely democracy.
>>>The thoughts of it make me cringe,but VN might as well have another
>>>Tienamen Square in the future.I honestly hope that we will have a
>>>better future than that,but as of now,the situation in VN seems
>>>very pathetic at best.
>>>
>
>>But, you cannot deny that the living standard of the Chinese people inside
>>China has improved markedly.  My main criticism of what happened at
>>Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.  They
>>forced the Chinese Communists into a corner.  Remember that Zhao Ziyang had
>>to beg the students to stop demonstrating before things went too far?
>>That scene was pitiful.  Here was the man who supposedly was the most
>>powerful person in China almost in tears.  Chai Ling, a student leader,
>>actually recalled that the more moderate students were ready to back down.
>>Yet the radicals were pressing for even more pressure on the Chinese
>>government.  Obviously, that was a mistake.  The end was a tragedy.  Zhao
>>Ziyang lost his job.  Many students were killed.
>>
>
> Please show me that "living standard of the Chinese people inside China has
>improved markedly" is true.

Read every business article concerning China on this planet Earth including
those from Taiwan.  The information is in there.

>Do you know what the GDP per capita of China is?

Yes, it's definitely better than 10 years ago.  If you like I can dig up
for you.

>Sure,before they had starved to death in one month,now they can sustain in
>two or three.Giao,please do not tell me how you came to the above conclusion
>since I find it rather insulting to the Chinese students who have been
>freedom and democracy fighters.
> BTW,you sound more sympathetic to Zhao Ziyang than to the killed students.
>You appear to think that the Chinese commies gov't was the victim rather
>than the aggressor. Let me quote you again "My main criticism of what
>happened at Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.
>They forced the Chinese Communists into a corner."
> Remember that democracy and freedom can not be compromised!

I did not insult the students.  I merely pointed out that they were unwise
in dealing with the Communist government.  Intoxicated with the seeming
power that they got from the "people power," they forgot that they had
not the support of the Chinese people across China (except in a few
big cities).  That was a terrible mistake and many paid for it.  I only
looked at the events from a realistic sense.  The analysis might sound
cold, but you can deny that it's correct.

>>The Chinese government's action was drastic and shameful.  However,
>>note that no government would allow something like that to happen.
>>Sooner or later, the government would clamp down on the demonstration
>>before it went out of control.  In Vietnam, the South Vietnamese soldiers
>>fired upon the Buddhist crowd in 1965, killing hundreds of people.  In
>>the USA, the police and national guard would come and arrest (not shoot
>>with live bullets - with the exception of Kent State) the demonstrators.
>>A more democratic government would change policies to reflect what the
>>people want, but it will not allow a rebellion (which Tiananmen is).
>
> Here in democratic societies,no such thing would happen in the first place
>since freedom and democracy are for real,so Giao 's premise is nonsense!

Huh?  You apparently forget that if you had participated in a post-King-
trial a few months (ideologically I don't think you would, but I just use
as an example), you'd have chance to be handcuffed and thrown in jail for
a night.  A demonstration, when out-of-control, is always dangerous,
even in a democracy.

>>I do hope that a Tiananmen would never happen in Vietnam.  We have had
>>enough revolutions.  All revolutions turned out to be disappointments.
>>It's time to try evolution for a change.
>
> What a statement! " All revolutions turned out to be disappointments."
>Remember the American revolution against Britain for Independence,the
>Vietnamese revolution against French rule !

OK, whose troops were at the battlefields of DDie^.n Bie^n Phu??  Didn't
the Communists turned that successful revolution into a big disappointment
to the Vie^.t Minh followers?  How about Ta^y So+n revolution in the 18th
century?  It had so much promise in creating a modern state in Vietnam.
Yet what happened?  How about the coup of 1963 in South Vietnam?  Did it
usher in a new South Vietnam state?  Or it merely was a way for the 
generals to come into power?

>After all those sacrifices
>Giao called them disappointments.We definitely can judge what kind of
				  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>character this gentleman Mr.Giao Tien Vu is from now on.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have a few theories about what kind of character I have in the viewpoint
of Garrick.  But lest I want to be accused of further limited vision (by
the way, I think Garrick was correct - I wear glasses), I decline to
state my theories.  Maybe they are just too nice :-) :-).

>Or maybe he is just confused between revolution and communist "revolution"!
> IMO,they are not revolution for that matter since all they attempted
>to gain have been the installments of their own authoritarian and
>bloody governments.They don't qualify as revolution in my book,period.

Um.  Please look up the meaning of "revolution" in the English dictionary
(not your book :-)).  It has a few meanings, two of which are:

1. An abrupt overthrow of a government or a group of rulers.
2. A sudden radical change in the system or state of affairs.

Giao
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese