HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Morgan vs Sandberg
Keywords: Morgan, Sandberg
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:59:46 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.


In article <ez027993@dale.ucdavis.edu> usenet@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu (Gary  
Prisoner Huckabay) writes:

[stuff deleted]
 
>I'll grant you this - Sandberg is white, he plays for the lovable Cubs,
>and people have short memories.  But WHY does anyone think Sandberg is
>CLOSE to Morgan?  Sandberg's decline has yet to occur, and he's still not
>close to Morgan's career totals.

>I'm not even sure Sandberg's superior to Lou Whitaker.

>He's whiter, of course, and has those 'dreamy' looks.

What a dilemma this has posed for me. What you said is so asinine, I  
shouldn't bother responding--but what you said is so insulting, I have to  
respond.

If you meant to be humorous, this is definitely one time smilies should  
not have been omitted. But even with them, your post would still not be  
amusing.

One would think that in a sports group, and especially in r.s.b., judgment  
of a player based on his whiteness (or shade thereof) would not be  
rampant--nor do I think it would be tolerated by this group if someone  
actually professed such a belief (which neither I nor anyone else in this  
thread, nor in other threads I recall reading, has done).

The fact that'd you'd make this accusation about me (you can say it was  
"nothing personal," but it *was* in response to my post) without even  
knowing what "shade" I am myself is simply incredible. How must all the  
people of color who like Sandberg (maybe even like him more than other,  
not-as-white-as-Ryne, 2nd basemen)...how they must feel after reading your  
drivel. I'm sure each and every one is grateful to you for finally  
pinpointing for them the real reason they've admired Sandberg. 

Accuse me, if you must (to make yourself feel better in your own opinions  
about Sandberg), that I like Ryne because he's "dreamy" (*your* word, not  
mine), or because I'm a blind Cubs fan, or because I'm related to  
Sandberg, or because he wears my "lucky number," or any number of other  
silly "reasons"...none of which you know to be fact. But don't dare try to  
accuse me of racism.

The fact that you even thought of it--and then actually posted it for the  
world to read--says more about you than it even tries to insinuate about  
me. And if it's because in your personal experience you know people who do  
think this way, I'm sorry. Racism is, unfortunately, still a reality of  
our society. But don't use those experiences to make sweeping  
generalizations across the board about all people. Not even in jest.

(BTW: one could say I'm being too sensitive, taking things too seriously,  
making too much out of your words. I don't personally feel I'm  
overreacting--but even if I were, I'd rather be guilty of that than of  
apathy about the topic.)
From: andy@misha.Central.Sun.COM (Andy Knipp SE Andersen)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:03:28 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: andy@misha.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: misha.central.sun.com

In article 8BB@Novell.COM, dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich) writes:
> In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
> 
> >Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:
> 
> >>There was talk of moving Ryno back to third when Griffen got
> >>to the majors. He was thought to be THAT good. Well anyway Ryno became 
> >>more than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in
> >>history
> 
> > Hee hee.
> > 
> > Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...
> 
> Not only do many people in Chicago believe this, but elsewhere too. And  
> all of these people are not merely "parochial" fans, but also various  
> analysts, historians, coaches, managers, players...
> 
> Hee hee.



I am certain that Dave was wondering about the potential of Ty Griffen to 
replace Sandberg & could not have been arguing the statement of Ryno being the
premier 2nd baseman in history.  :-)









---
Andy Knipp                    |
Sun Microsystems              | The secret to success is sincerity,
Chicago Loop District         | once you can fake that,  you have it made.
andy@sunloop.central.sun.com  |

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian)
Subject: Re: Js Need for LH SP (Was Schofield...)
Organization: Pitzer College
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:28:46 GMT

In article <kalford-210193083106@staffws.maclab.comp.uvic.ca> kalford@sol.uvvm.ca (Keith Alford) writes:
>In article <kbanaian.189.0@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu>,
>kbanaian@bernard.pitzer.claremont.edu (King Banaian) wrote:
>
>> >The one problem the Jays and Expos have is the Canadian Dollar.  One report
>> >that I heard is that for every cent that the Canadian dollar drops the
>> >Jays lose $700,000 (because income is mostly in Canadian Dollars and the 
>> >payroll is in US dollars)
>
>>> and the Can. Dollar has dropped about 10 cents in the last 6 months.  That means a loss of 
> >>about $7 million.
>
Your comments are fine, but please, I did not write this, nor would I wish 
to take credit for it.  Please be a little more careful with editing 
attributions.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Batting Average Inversely Correlated with Offense?
Keywords: pure sabermetrics
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:09:05 GMT

In article <C18L81.Dz9@world.std.com> szs@world.std.com (Stephen Z Stein) writes:
>OK, it took a while but here's my analysis of AA vs BB:
> 
>Name   PA  AB  H  2B 3B HR  TB BB   BA     OBP   SLG 
>AA    500 465 140 33  2  3 186 35  0.300  0.349  0.400
>BB    500 434 109 33  2  9 173 66  0.251  0.350  0.399
> 
>(Notice simple Runs Created = OBP*TB gives a 4.5 run edge to AA.)
> 
>So which would you rather have: 37 singles or 31 walks and 6 home runs?
> 
>Using the situational expected runs tables from Pankin's
>1988 GABSB, I've calculated that:
> 
>a walk is worth 0.27 runs
>a homer is worth 1.46 runs
>a single is worth 0.63 runs
>(assumptions: 50% of the singles move a runner from first to third
>              75% of the singles score a runner from second
>             100% of the singles advance all runners at least one base.)
> 
>(I have discovered a truly marvelous derivation of these numbers
>but the buffer is too small to contain it.  Perhaps all I've done is
>re-derive Linear Weights.)
> 
>AA gets 37 singles = 23.31 runs
>BB gets 31 walks + 6 HRs = 8.37 + 8.76 = 17.13 runs
> 
>If I've still got 2 significant figures by now, AA gets a 6 run edge.
> 
>Is this a proof that RC overvalues HR or maybe walks?
> 
>- Steve Stein
>
>

My gut tells me to go with player A, the higher BA. Equivalent
averages work out to about .2466 for A, .2428 for B, or 63.9 vs 61.9
equivalent runs for the same number of outs. For a whole team of
players, that is 824.6 for A, 799.4 for B, a 25.2 run advantage.

But.

I also have this lineup simulator I put together. You feed in a
lineup, set a couple of parameters (error rate, randomization seed,
number of games) and it plays that lineup through as many games as you
wish. I put in a lineup of nine players with the stats given in
Steve's post, and ran it for 16200 games each. Initialization seed and
error rates were the same for baoth.

The team of nine players with the higher batting average scored 821.2
runs per 162 games. The other team scored 829.7, an advantage of 8.5
runs. I need to go home to get the hard copy of the code again, and I
don't remember what the assumptions for advancement I had were.
(Almost forgot: I added 50 strikeouts, 0 steals, 0 caught stealing to
each line.) The onbase and slugging averages were as expected.

I think the bottom line on these is that they are virtually identical
in terms of run production, and that differences in value are due to
things external to the batter (the amount of advancement on singles is
a function of the baserunner's speed, not the batter's ability.) A
fast team (Cardinal teams of 1980s) would benefit from the extra
singles. Slow teams (Senators of the 50s, Red Sox of the last decade)
would benefit ffrom the walks.

Clay D.
From: dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Date: 23 Jan 93 09:46:33 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1993Jan22.213038.14499@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>  
gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
>               OBP  SLG
> Morgan - C    .395 .427
> Sandberg R4-2 .357 .452
> 
> The 38 points of OBP are obviously worth a lot more than 25 points
> of slugging, and we're not even taking into consideration all of
> Morgan's speed and the fact that Sandberg hasn't had his down years yet.
> (It is safe to say that Sandberg is the better defensive player, but 
> that doesn't begin to make up the offensive ground between them.

Why not let's try your comment this way: It is safe to say that Morgan is  
the better offensive player, but that doesn't begin to make up the  
defensive ground between them.

The discussion is about "premier second basemen" in sum and total, not  
about "premier second basemen offensively." So why are so many posts  
putting so much emphasis on the offensive comparison? It seems that the  
position played is an important factor in the topic--after all, it's not  
about "premier hitters" or "premier players no matter what position they  
play." [Is DH a "positon"? ;-)]. So is the discussion downplaying (if not  
outright ignoring or dismissing) Sandberg's position play?

Just wondering.
 
> Now, if only Ron Santo could get in...

Ah, Ronny. I can't argue with you there--though I'm sure others could, and  
will ;-)
From: charly@hal.COM (Charly Rhoades)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sandberg (was Re: Ty Griffen)
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:56:10 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: renoir.hal.com

In article <1993Jan22.122112.13976@bsu-ucs> 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>In article <2272@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>> Thus spake 00bjgood@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu:

>>>... Well anyway Ryno became more
>>>than just a former MVP, he bacame the premier second baseman in history 

>> Do they really believe this in Chicago?  Talk about parochialism...

>So who do you think was better? And please don't say Joe Morgan. Maybe if you
>go back before 1950 you could make a case. Although I admit I should have said,
>one of the premier second basemen in history.

                                   ^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah, you know, "history" is that time from 1950 to the present...

Doesn't everyone know that?


Uh, what was I writing about...?





-- 
   Charly Rhoades               
                                   This message provided for
   HaL Computer Systems           informational purposes only
   charly@hal.com            
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Subject: Yankees chances in '93  (was Re: 1993 MLB WS odds)
Organization: Wayne State University Math Department, Detroit
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:04:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.152627.1@ualr.edu> ajsmith@ualr.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.132431.24404@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood) writes:
>> 
>> 
>> The following odds chart appeared today in the Toronto Star, and represents
>> the odds listed by the Flamingo Hotel sports book in Laughlin, Nev. The
>> odds represent the odds to win the 1993 WS:
>
>> 
>> NY Yankees	18:1
>With the additions of Boggs, Owen, Abbot, Howe (cringe the damn drugie) I'd 
>place the Yankees a little higher

Well, Spike Owen isn't going to help any, but with the additions of the
other three plus Jimmy Key and the developments of Sterling Hitchcock,
Sam Millitello and Bob Wickman, the Yankees look like they have as good a
shot as anybody at winning the AL East.

True, they won't score a whole bunch of runs, but they do have O'Neill,
Boggs, and Tartabull (one of the best hitters in baseball).  Nokes is a
pretty good hitter for a catcher.

As I see it the AL East race will be between Baltimore and New York.  I
think the Orioles may have over-achieved last year (particularly
Devereaux and Anderson).  On the other hand, they have a young pitching
staff (McDonald and Rhodes should be getting bettter), and they'll have
Hoiles for the whole year.

Toronto has lost enough that they won't contend, IMHO.

--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Ten Best Peaks (was Sandberg)
Originator: rja@mahogany126
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:01:43 CST


In article <1993Jan25.141143.28302@holos0.uucp>, lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed) writes:
> In article <1993Jan22.213038.14499@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gspira@nyx.cs.du.edu (Greg Spira) writes:
> 
> >Morgan had one of the 10 best peaks ever.
> 
> Sounds like an interesting topic for off-season arguments.  Okay, as a Red and
> especially in 1975-76 Joe Morgan was incredible.  Who else makes the top ten? 
> To qualify, we need someone who had a peak well above what one would expect
> when looking at the rest of the career, and a peak that didn't consist of
> a single great year.  (Of course these guidelines, like evrything else on
> the net, are arguable.)
> 
> To start it off, here are a couple of gimmes:
> Mantle and Kofax.

Roger Maris: MVP in 1960 & 61.

> At the other extreme is Henry Aaron, who somehow hit 755 homers but never
> hit 50 in a single season.

Don Sutton: 100+ Ks for 21 straight seasons.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bernstei@next3.corp.mot.com (Andrew Bernstein)
Subject: Matt Alexander info requested...how to find it....
Organization: MOTOROLA 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:18:46 GMT



 Anybody know where I could find
information on Matt Alexander, ie, his numbers through
the minors and I believe he played in the Mexican League....Obviously
his ML totals are no problem....thanks!

Also, anybody know of an address for the Orioles?   Ie, if I wanted to send
a letter to a particular player, where would I send it?
Anybody kind enough to provide an address?


Thanks,

Andrew
--

Andrew Bernstein                                        
Motorola Inc.                          "There's no such thing as sanity,
1299 E. Algonquin Road            and that's the sanest fact"
Schaumburg, IL 60196-1077                               ---- Dire Straits
         bernstei@next3.corp.mot.com (NeXT mail OK)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney)
Subject: Re: MLB in Vancouver, B.C. (was Playoffs)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:36:51 GMT

bogreen@unixg.ubc.ca (Bo Green) writes:


>In <1jk8hdINNk8h@shelley.u.washington.edu> dudgeon@hardy.u.washington.edu (Doug Dudgeon) writes:

>>ayim@lambert.uwaterloo.ca (Alfred Yim) writes:

>>>When is Vancouver ever going to get a ML team?!!!? Can some one predict
>>>or will the networks see to it that it won't happen.... %-)


>>Realistically speaking, few people in B.C., if anyone at all, really cares
>>about the Mariners.  
(deleted a bunch)
>> the Mariners' new
>>management, who are trying to increase interest in the team from outside the
>>state, specifically in Portland and Vancouver, B.C.  To that end, this year
>>the M's will play two exhibition games in Vancouver just prior to opening day.  


     A really smart move, I think, would have been for the Mariners to
move their AAA team into Vancouver.  Vancouver is already a very good
AAA city (NOT a major league city, as the original post asked), and to
have the parent team just three hours down the road would be very good
for both.  Over the years, I could imagine people developing a real
interest in the Mariners if the team was filled with players we had
cheered for here in Vancouver a few years before.



-- 
Chris Roney  (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca)
From: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM (Todd Rader)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Morgan vs Sandberg
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:35:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: str@maredsous.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: maredsous

In article 63792@mimsy.umd.edu, kohout@cs.umd.edu (Robert Kohout) writes:
%
%This is a gross over-simplification, and while it "makes sense", it needs
%a lot of hemming and hahing to fit the fact. Consider:

   [ several good points, but a big swing-and-a-miss on this one: ]

%5) Rickey Henderson and Jose Canseco both get more hype than Mark
%   McGwire. I can't say who's more popular in the Bay area, but from
%   this distance, it looks like McGwire's a poor third.

Sorry, but although Canseco and Henderson got/get more press and notoriety than
McGwire, I would hardly call it popularity.  Neither Canseco nor Henderson
is popular with the Bay Area media, while McGwire is reasonably so, and
net.whipping-boy Carney Lansford was absolutely fawned over.

I think the real determinant is the "T" part of TWG (telegenic, that is).
However, consider the mediocre-to-bad players who have enjoyed such
major league longevity and good rapport with the press as Lansford.
Sure, telegenic black stars like Puckett, Banks, and Clemente have been
wildly popular, but the African-American analogues of the Lansfords, Garveys,
and Mark Lemke's are few and far between.

-todd
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: YANKEE REFLECTIONS ANYONE???
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:51:10 GMT
Reply-To: mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
Organization: IBM AIX/ESA Development, Kingston NY

kasper@sscvx1.ssc.gov writes:

> In article <2497@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (David M. Tate) writes: 
> > Just a nit:  Don Mattingly certainly _is_ an impatient hitter by my
> > standards.  I imagine that at least Gary Huckabay has similar standards,
> > and perhaps a few more netters...

> This seems to be a recurrent theme.  It is true that Mattingly walks
> infrequently, but this could be attributed to the fact that he almost always
> makes contact and puts the ball in play rather than to impatience.  It is
> difficult to walk a lot if you rarely swing and miss.

Obvious counterexample: Wade Boggs. Probably also: Carney Lansford, Edgar
Martinez. Walking is not a consequence of whether you miss, but when you
swing.

> One other Mattingly question:  are the incessant complaints about Mattingly
> that appear here caused by: a) the fact that Mattingly isn't as good as he used
> to be or b)people really believing that he is no good.

It's c) people claiming that Mattingly still is very good.

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

There is no such thing as new development, only radical maintenance.
	--Charles W. Bachman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Canadian Ball Teams and Taxes (Was: Lee Stevens to the Expos)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:18:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.010650.18172@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, bspencer@cs.mcgill.ca 
(Brian SPENCER)       writes...
>In article <1993Jan22.000627.5381@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen) writes:
>>My understanding is that the reason is: 
>>
>>(5) Something about the tax laws works against playing for
>>the Expos. I don't know if the player's income is then
>>subject to bot US and Canadian taxes, or what the story
>>is exactly. I've just heard this given as a reason why
>>American ballplayers try to avoid playing for Canadian
>>teams.
>>
>>Maybe somebody else can give a definitive answer on how the
>>tax situation differs when a player plays on a Canadian
>>team.
>>
> 
>The problem is that there are higher tax rates in Canada. Since they
>work in Canada, they must pay income taxes here. For that tax bracket,
>the rates are much higher here than States-side. Unfortunately, I am not
>familiar with the tax rates at this level, and probably never be in my
>lifetime unless I shed a few pounds, become left-handed, and throw 90
>miles an hour.
> 
However as far I recall, the difference in tax rates isn't an issue since I 
know that Montreal a few years ago and I assume that Toronto and Montreal both 
continue to make up for the difference between how much a player would have to 
pay in taxes in the United States and Canada, so that this shouldn't be an 
issue.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Why Rabbit is in the Hall
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 01:26:05 GMT

In article <8824@news.duke.edu> fls@econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith) writes:
>
>	Rabbit Maranville is in the Hall of Fame because he played for the
>1914 Miracle Braves who won the World Series.  Anybody can play 3000 games,
>but it takes a real HoFer to win the World Series for (a) Boston, and
>(b) the Braves.

He and Boston great Babe Ruth also played for the 1935 Braves, one of 
the all-time worst teams.    Both ended their careers that year.


(Oddly enough, the 34 and 36 teams weren't all that bad.  Anyone know what 
the story was?)

Roger
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: schofield to the jays
Date: 27 Jan 93 13:41:01 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

drew.carley@canrem.com (drew carley) writes:


>DM>Gee, if I were a Jays fan, and thank god, I'm not, I'd be worrying about
>DM>their third and fourth starters, too.  And maybe their second starter.
>   PUH...LEASE!The only pitcher that wasn't in the starting rotation
come on - begging isn't nice...
>   last year when the Jays became the best team IN THE WORLD is Dave
>   Stewart(not a bad addition don'tcha know)As far as Lee is concerned
well, here's the rub.  jack morris is like 37, and will have an era above
 4 this year.  not bad, but here's their #2 starter.  they lost jimmy
 key for dave stewart, who will probably have an era significantly above
 4.5.  they lost henke, who will be replaced by ward - but they lost ward
 as a set up man/closer, because there's NO ONE who can replace him.
>   he was playing so far above his head offensively last year he was
>   suffering from permanent nosebleeds.Schofield will certainly be a
>   welcome and settling addition to the left side of the infield.
schofield can't even GET nosebleeds.  you'll get a guy who's a decent fielder
 who will hit 240 up in toronto, with a little power and no walks.  if
 you love that, that's fine.  

they lost winfield for molitor - molitor won't duplicate his numbers.
 candy maldonado is gone.  joe carter is back.  the only PLUS i can see the
 blue jays doing in the offseason is getting rid of kelly gruber.

>   I too thank God that you are not a Jays fan!BTW who do you like?

well, i used to like the giants.  i've gotten sick of them and am rooting
 this year for the florida marlins. but, with the exception of that one
 team, am an objective baseball fan.  the jays are clearly better than 4
 of the teams in the al east - well, i guess if you're a big indians fan
 you might argue there.  but they're NOT clearly better than either the
 orioles or the yankees.  - bob gaj