From: jbrindle@nwnexus.WA.COM (Jennifer Brindle)
Subject: Re: THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETY
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 17:31:17 GMT

franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:

>In <1992Apr4.225950.26567@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:

>>In what way has sex been cheapened?

>  Easy. there is a lack of commitment emphasized within our society.

I take it from this posting that you are of the persuasion that sex was
"expensive" before and now is "cheapened"?  Please tell me when and how
sex has been "cheapened".  It seems to me that there is sufficient evidence
to show that sex was always pretty cheap and symbolized a lack of commitment 
in society.  

Look at victorian times.  Men had sex with "bad women" and expected their
wives to remain "good"--the madonna syndrome.  Sex, at that time, was
primarily reserved for men and "bad women".  Even today, that remains.
You want sex from the "loose" girl, but you marry the chaste one.
And you don't call that behavior "cheap"?

>Sex is not seen as a bond of a relationship but often as a purely
>self-fulfilling ideal. 

I cannot think of a time in history when sex hasn't been self-fulfilling.
I also don't think that even now sex is "purely" self-fulfilling.

>>Please defend the position that aboriton is a "cop-out".

Oh yes.  This I've got to read!

>It is often a choice when you feel you cannot accept the responsibility
>or maturity required to handle a new child.

And you think that it's a cop out to realize that you're in over your head?
Have you ever dropped a class, Steve, because your workload was too heavy?
Have you ever said "no" to volunteer work because your time was scarce?
Have you ever backed off from involvement because you didn't think you
could handle it?

That isn't a cop-out.  That is realizing what your limits are--a very
adult way to bahave.

BTW, using your exact same reasoning, adoption is also a cop-out.

>It is often a choice when
>you feel you cannot finance a child.

So you think that one should spend, spend, spend with no regard to their
financial well-being?  Most people would say that living within your
means is a good thing, and we would very much like it if the government
felt that way.

So, by your same reasoning, adoption is also a cop-out: you can negotiate
for the adoptive parents to finance your prenatal care and delivery.

>It is often a choice when you
>just plain ol' don't want the child.

So?  Why is that a cop-out?  Why should you expose yourself to the risk and
consequences of continued pregnancy when you don't want to?  Haven't you
heard the phrase :To thine own self be true?  If you don't want to endure
something, and you don't have to, why should you?

So, by your same reasoning, adoption is also a cop-out.  If you don't want
the child, just give it up.

>Abortion is an easy solution or way
>out from a problem.

Having been face with the "problem", I can tell you from first-hand experience
that those kind of decisions are never easy.

Abortion is less risky than childbirth, and it carries with it less 
responsibility, but that does not mean that it is an easy solution.

And, by your same reasoning, adoption is an easy solution to keeping the
child.  Therefore, according you your reasoning, adoption is also a cop-out.

>financially, when you get bills, do you just not
>pay them? No, you deal with them.

And one of those ways to "deal" with the bills is to declare bankruptcy.
Another is to borrow more money to pay off what you owe (it's called
bill consolidation).  A third is to work out some sort of payment schedule.
A woman can "deal" with an unwanted pregnancy similarily--she can abort,
she can continue and give it up for adoption, or she can continue and keep
it.  All are good options and only the woman is in a position to decide
what is best for her.

>Why is it you feel you can afford
>the money to accomadate your power company, but not a child? 

Well, for one thing, my power bill comes to about $150/month.  If I couldn't
afford that, I could: declare bankruptcy and not pay them, borrow more
money to pay them, or call them up and explain the situation.  Comparing
that cost to childbirth during the same period of time is as follows:
   my power bill for 10 months:  approximately $1500
   my prenatal care, delivery, and post-partum care:  $13,000
BIG DIFFERENCE!

>granted
>a child isa hell of a lot more expensive than your electric bill,
>but isn't it worth it? 

I think it depends on the people involved.  When I was in college, I could
neither afford a child, nor did I want children.  Therefore, to me at that
time NO, it wasn't worth it.  As I grew older and became more financially
and emotionally able, I discovered that the rewards of parenthood just might
be worth the outlay.  It took me over 12 years to reach the decision to
become a parent.  Some people take longer, some take shorter, some never
come to that conclusion.  I think the decision to become a parent, and _when_,
is best made by the people directly involved, don't you?

Your "abortion is a cop-out because" fits adoption to a T.  It seems to
me that you should think that adoption is a cop-out, too.  (Or, at least,
that is the logical conclusion that one can draw from your "reasons".)

>   Oh, jeeez, I know that. That is my entire point. The emphasis wthin
>society is that sex is for pleasure, not reproduction.

I hate to break it to you Steve, but if god intended for people to have
sex only to reproduce, then we wouldn't be able, or have the desire, to
have sex at any time--only when it was physically possible to conceive.  
God saw that sex was good, in and of itself, and therefore enabled humans 
with the ability to have sex at will, not like any other animal that I'm 
aware of.

>I am aware of that, 
>and embarassed by it as well.

I cannot understand how someone could be embarrased at the thought of
sex for pleasure.  That's how god wanted it to be. 

>Although the two should go hand in hand,
>it appears that the fetus, a sentient being or not, is the victim.

[shake head]  How you can make that leap of "logic" is beyond me.  How
can something like sex for pleasure (like god wanted it) make a fetus
the victim?  One does not cause the other.  In fact, the only thing
that sex and abortion have in common is that abortions result from
unwanted pregnancies, which in turn, result sometimes from sexual
activity, even "sex for reproduction".  


Jennifer





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