HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Re: Ilaine's e-z garb workshop
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:30:30 GMT

kate@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Kate Sanderson) writes:

>Thank you, Ilaine, for the sig about the "infinite number of kittens".
>Haven't laughed so hard in a good long while.

>                              Kasia (who is still laughing!)
Me too!
But whgat I'm waiting for is the
"Illaine's e-z garb workshop in one post"

Oh please pretty please with sequins and sugar on top!

(okay - so sequins and sugar aren't really period;
make it pearls and saffron, what ever. Chocolate chip cookies,
good lighting and hand rubs, a start on the infinite number of
kittens...

chus and good tidings
Nikolai Petrovich


-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Month's Panel: Us and Them - Eliminating Them.
EOF
-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Month's Panel: Us and Them - Eliminating Them.
EOF
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: EPSTEIN@ksuvm.ksu.EDU (Emily Epstein)
Subject: Information please
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:12:00 GMT

From Alix Mont de fer unto the frequenters of the Rialto, greeting.

I need a contact in Drachenwald. A German gentleman visiting relatives
in this area came to our shire meeting last night. He would like to
contact the SCA when he returns home to Bremen in a couple of weeks.
I seem to recall that there is a group in or near Bremen. If someone could
send me information such as name, contact person's name and phone, perhaps
even meeting times, I would be most grateful. My thanks in advance.

Alix Mont de Fer         <=========>
    (Emily Epstein)       |* * * *|
Shire of Spinning Winds    XXXXXXX
    (Manhattan, KS)         VVVVV
                             YYY
epstein@ksuvm.ksu.edu         |
                             |||
                           XXXXXXX
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Heralds from the 
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:42:28 GMT

In article <tx!35v#@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw04.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>
>We've been having a discussion on the Heralds' Mailing List about why each
>SCA branch is required to have a herald. It's apparent that the founders 
>thought heraldic arts were important enough that every branch needed one, but
>we can't figure out *why*. (Corpora requires a seneschal, a herald, and 
>either a MoAS or a marshal.) Knowing as I do that heralds weren't around as
>an actual office for the first few years of the SCA, I am naturally curious
>about when they began to be considered as essential. 
>Would those of you who might know enlighten us?
>

I have heard that it was the first office created by the BoD, and hence
it only exists because of tradition. If you read the "Last Tournement"
article in the KWHB, you will notice that there was a herald before
there was a king. (He read the invocation of the lists "Ecce Eduardus
Ursus, post Christophorem Robinum descendens est...Tum...Tum, Tum..."
Which is a marvelous bit of silliness that I think should be revived.)

I think it's silly to require a herald for every group. Each group
should have a seneschal (to be the legal representative of the SCA) and
an Exchequer (if the group has any money, to keep the IRS of the SCA's
back), plus a minimum of 5 paying members (of which the seneschal and
exchequer can be 2). Anything else should be optional. In any large and
healthy group, it should not be a problem to scare up a full slate of
officers, so I think that any "real life" change will be minimal.

Lothar \|/
        0

herald for every branch. I think that each branch should be required to
have a Seneschal (legal representative) and an Exchequer (if the group
handles any money, to keep the IRS off our backs). Anything else should
be optional, any any healthy group of any size will tend to have a
herald (out of tradition if nothing else).
	
From: Blackwolf@f7.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Blackwolf)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: buying chainmail link
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 09:36:57 -0500

* flaxscript, who is on the linen standard?
 
open your wallet and count the dead presidents ....
 
bw



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: RIALLC@ecc7.ateng.az.honeywell.COM
Subject: Sumptuary laws
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:15:00 GMT

Greetings,
   about a year back, a set of sumptuary laws were published for Atenveldt,
supposedly codifying long standing practices and customs, virtually none of
which I was familiar with (although I have been a subject of this Kingdom for
more than 20 years now, creak). The laws dictate such things as the number
of inches wide a collar of state may be for various ranks, the height of 
circlets and what should go on them, and my favorite - how many rows
of ermine go on your mantle of state, which is also a new concept. As an 
example, a Crown Prince gets four and a half rows of ermine, how you work half
a row is left as an exercise for the interested reader. These laws seem based
much more on the excesses of Victorian England than anything earlier. 

I have half-seriously considered making a new baronial circlet featuring silver
balls supported by cut pieces of yardstick, to make the job easier on whoever
is responsible for making sure the LAW is enforced. Fortunately (IMHO), since
they came out the laws have been met with that most powerful of SCA weapons,
bored indifference, and have been largely forgotten a scant year later. 

I suppose such laws irritate me most because if actually followed they would 
simply encourage the stratification and creeping classism of the SCA, not to
mention making newbies paranoid about putting ANY decorations on their garb 
for fear of violating some sumptuary code. Recently, a lady of my household
was given a stern lecture by someone from another area because the lady was
wearing a green leather belt she had just made (green belts are defined in the
new laws to be worn by apprentices to Laurels). My Lady's response (as a 
Laurel and Pelican) was to gather the folk of our house together and swear
them in as apprentices and proteges, thus enabling them to wear green or gold
belts. Come to think of it, I'd better swear them all in as squires,
as our household colors are red and gold and we often wear woven belts in 
those colors.

Regards,

Bartholomew
From: grimkirk@amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Legislating Authenticity
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:18:04 CST
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Did anyone see my posting on "legislating authenticity"?

To date, I've only seen two posts regarding it and I did request some
discussion. Some have said that they've had trouble "locally" in terms of
getting feed. Is this a wide spread phonomenon?

Basically, did anyone see it or is it just being ignored?

Grimkirk

Mike Schneider                  | Mac Quadra 900 -
UFP Computers                   |
Chicago, IL                     |       "Dammit Jim! I'm a Mac, not an Amiga!"
Amiga and Toaster Consultant    |
New and Used Equipment Broker   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kate@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Kate Sanderson)
Subject: Ilaine's e-z garb workshop
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 22:44:02 EST

Thank you, Ilaine, for the sig about the "infinite number of kittens".
Haven't laughed so hard in a good long while.

                              Kasia (who is still laughing!)
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:10:44 GMT
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC

In article <1993Jan6.104613.26703@latcs1.lat.oz.au> pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears) writes:

>	A & S Awards   : I think there is a stronger case here. If I
>		want to become a Laurel, (which of course I do), I must
>		spend money on the materials I use to make items of
>		costume, caligraphy, or whatever art forms I wish to
>		make an impression on others with. Over the time spent
>		to become a Rose Leaf in the West I estimate spending
>		over $4000 on costume materials, metal to make suits of
>		armour, equipment like hammers, a drill press, chisels,
>		a forge, a sewing machine, etc, and 7ish years.
>		Not to mention the costs associated with any teaching
>		requirements. Workshops for costuming, armour etc all
>		have hidden costs in consumables, and equipment maintenance
>		which are absorbed by the person holding them.
>		Of course time is also an issue, as for service.
	
	Granted there is a some cost in giving classes and holding workshops
- I have extras of almost anything solely for the purpose of lending (some of
which I haven't seen in years). On the other hand the bulk of the cost is in
the materials you use for your own projects, most of which (with the exception
of scribes - but that's another discussion) are for your own use. I have no
idea how much I have spent over the years on things like loom and accessories,
spinning wheels and other tools, not even counting fabric and thread. It's 
probably in the $4000 range too (and I'm not counting camping equipment). On 
the other hand, I never thought of it as an investment in an award - this is
stuff I'd be doing anyway, the SCA is just a place to find other fiber artists
and an excuse to make stuff I wouldn't otherwise have any place to wear :)
	If I choose to buy linen or silk instead of cotton or rayon, it's 
because I want to wear those fibers (being a fiber fondler the difference is
very obvious to me) not because it will get me a laurel. I guess my point is
that the investment is a purely personal thing, and if you keep a narrow
focus instead of spreading yourself out over every craft and century, the 
cost isn't so great. Obviously, some crafts are more expensive than others,
but if all you want is to be a laurel, you can choose one with a low overhead.
You can be a bobbin lace laurel for about $80 in materials (but watch out for
those workshops), or under $20 for needle lace. If you go for an early persona
you can spin and weave all your garb for well under $100 (drop spindle and warp
weighted loom). On the other hand, if your soul craves to try goldsmithing,
be prepared to spend money :)
							-Ilaine

-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	We're going to try an experiment now. Instead of using
                   | 	a loom, we're going to wind all the yarn into balls
ilaine@panix.com   |    and adopt an infinite number of kittens...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:04:37 GMT

shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick) writes:

I wrote:
  In many ways, SCA fence as I've experienced it, is closer to a 
  period model than SCA fighting.  This may be that, being so late 
  period, we do have many good manuscripts and illustrations that 
  we can imitate.  It certainly appears that literate means were not used 
  to teach swordplay in period, or that none of the European 
  written works survive. 

Strykar answered:
  False, false, false.  There exists almost 100 manuals of fencing prior to 
  1500 in manuscript-THAT WE KNOW OF, with more being discovered all the time.  
  There are some 60 or so of GERMAN style alone.  There are 100 or so manuals 
  of Italian fening PRINTED between 1500 and 1600.  

Thank you!  Those manuals that you described, do they portray rapier style
duelling and swordfighting, or a martial art more like the heavy list
style that we do?

And, if they do describe tournament style martial arts, how well does our
recreation compare to them?  The argument that I'm making, should be clear.
I'm not arguing that our fencing is a superlative simulation of period
rapier dueling.  What I would argue is that our heavy list fighting is
no better.  Do any of the facts you are aware of, Strykar, support this?

(I might further make the argument that given the level of documentation,
our rapier dueling may turn out to be more authenticable, and eventually
more authentic, but I haven't done enough reading, thinking or talking
with people to be sure.)

	Tibor (and thanks again for the response)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Name
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 12:44:12

A node called Tim Of Angle coded to node Longshot,
on 05 Jan 93  21:02:34, about Re: Name;

 L>    Could some one please define "Rialto"?   Sorry, had to ask.

 TOA> Name of the "main drag" in Venice.

lo'
   O.K., thanks.   The only thing that I could find was "rial" which was 
defined as "riches".
   Off hand, why is the main drag in Venice called the Rialto?

                                                  ~ Aindries


... The Devil take the men that killed the dream that died too soon,
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
From: pa142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period firearms
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:42:28 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee

In article <ewright.725758100@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!darwin.sura.net!convex!convex!ewright
>From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
>Subject: Re: period firearms
>Sender: usenet@news.eng.convex.com (news access account)
>Message-ID: <ewright.725758100@convex.convex.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 23:28:20 GMT
>References: <9212301802.AA04380@math.bu.edu>
>Nntp-Posting-Host: bach.convex.com
>Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
>X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
>              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
>              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
>Lines: 12
>In <9212301802.AA04380@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:
>
>>One more factor: where are we going to get functional period firearms?
>>I do not know of any company that manufactures them, although I'm sure
>>they exist for the appropriate price.  If SCA smiths took to making
>>them, they would have to worry about the legal implications of
>>manufacturing a possibly dangerous product, etc.  

Do we not have this already:  many of us manufacture bows, arrows, swords, 
and knives.  These are also possibly dangerous products.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: blaxson@shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson)
Subject: re: Bravo and Enjoying
Reply-To: balaxson@systems.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:49:16 GMT



> I give a bravo to David Tallan for his portayasl of what I have felt  
since the
> first time I stepped into these current middle ages.

> This is "The Current Middle Ages" NOT the middle ages.
> we don't have to be the "Society for Compulsive authenticity" 
> lets be "Creative" and enjoy the fun wee can have on and off the  
battlefield.
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> Robert Baldassano
> 
> baldy@eagle.nas.nasa.gov

YYYEEEEEAAAAHHHHH
Bravo #2:

Enjoy Authenticity as your own heart woldst seek...
Enjoy learning how to do more...
Enjoy the gathering of friends...
Enjoy safely buffeting helm...
Enjoy the feasts and songs...
Enjoy the playing a persona...
Enjoy NOT forgetting the real world...
Enjoy the SCA.


Brian Goodheart,  Young, Happy and Enjoying Life
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Heralds from the 
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:15:26 GMT

In article <C0pDAt.66F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>I think it's silly to require a herald for every group. Each group
>should have a seneschal (to be the legal representative of the SCA) and
>an Exchequer (if the group has any money, to keep the IRS of the SCA's
>back), plus a minimum of 5 paying members (of which the seneschal and
>exchequer can be 2). Anything else should be optional. In any large and
>healthy group, it should not be a problem to scare up a full slate of
>officers, so I think that any "real life" change will be minimal.

While I agree with you on strictly utilitarian grounds, on
group-stability grounds, I have to disagree.  Having only two officers
will--I think--be unstable.  Even at three, you can have *severe*
problems (have a chat with anyone who remembers there being 3 Board
members....).  At 5 things seem to smooth out.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: robertdf@microsoft.com (Robert Del Favero)
Subject: Re: William's mention of authentic equipment
Date: 04 Jan 93 18:47:57 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <9301020052.aa23699@mc.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:
>This got me thinking; what exactly would I need to have *really*
>authentic archery equipment?
>
>A furnace to refine iron ore in by a period technique.
>Some iron ore of the appropriate type.

...[And so on. You've seen this kind of thing before]...

Nonsense. Aside from the errors in fact regarding the materials, 
construction and use of period archery equipment, the period solution 
to the problem of getting period archery equipment is to go to the 
bowyer and buy a bow, and to go to the fletcher and buy arrows. 

>I salute the intention, William, but 'authentic' isn't a boolean
>state.  (I don't want to *know* what a Near Eastern persona would
>have to do!)

(Why are those who advocate efforts toward authenticity so often put down
or belittled? Prefacing the put-down with "I salute the intention, but..."
or putting a smiley face after it doesn't make it any less of a put-down.)

Having a more authentic piece of equipment for any SCA activity doesn't 
mean having to make it from scratch. I see that argument advanced too 
often as an excuse for not making any effort at all. If the archery culture 
(or the archery rules) required that all bows be made from wood, horn, 
sinew and/or other demonstrably period materials, then the SCA's archery 
industry would respond by making equipment from the requisite materials, 
just as the SCA's armor industry makes armor that meets the requirements 
(social and legal) for that activity.

As it is, showing up at an SCA archery shoot with a wood or wood/sinew 
bow leaves one feeling like a visitor from another planet. Archery as 
practiced in the SCA today is a sport that uses modern equipment in a 
modern way, and where those who try to use recreated period equipment in 
a period way are treated as strange or misguided. While 'authentic' is 
certainly not a boolean state, the efforts I've seen at more authentic 
recreations of period-style archery in the SCA have been discouraged, both
by social pressure and by the rules.

Vittorio del Fabbro
Barony of Madrone
An Tir
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Del Favero      robertdf@microsoft    I don't speak for my employer.
From: tamela@pyramid.unr.edu (Tamela R. Germano)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: LOST Small Dagger at West Kingdom 12th Night
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:28 GMT
Reply-To: tamela@pyramid.unr.edu (Tamela R. Germano)
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science


Help prevent marital strife and spouse abuse!  My hubby lost my 
favorite dagger at 12th Night in Modesto this weekend.  It's a
small stiletto, triangular blade, metal grip, with a brown leather
sheath that has a metal tip.  

		Thanks,

			Etaine la Gamine
			(Tamela Germano)
From: zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Helm Padding
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:39:31 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au

I'm in the middle of looking at armour standards and enforcement of same
as part of Lochac's approach to Kingdom.
  
The current West (and Society) standard is 1/2" of closed cell foam,
which down here we take to mean the stuff the sleeping mats are made
from.
  
If the object is to absorb shock, is this a suitable padding?  IT is
pretty incompressible, and it seems to me that a combination of this and
less dense foam is better.  

What about suspension harnesses?  Has anyone tried them?
  
IT would seem from pictures of period helms that the lining was attached
in such a way that it may have been used as a sort of suspension
harness, holding the helm away from the head, instead of being
shock-absorbing padding.

Has anyone any info on this?
  
Silfren

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: Reminder: FAQ available
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:09:32 GMT

Greeting to the Rialto from Robyyan.

The beginning-of-the-month reminder:

There is a Frequently Asked Questions list available, providing
answers to those FAQs, and a posting style guide.

To get your very own copy, you can

1.  Wait for the middle of the month, when the entire thing will be
    posted, in 4 parts.
2.  Retrieve it via FTP from one of the following sites:
                site              directory
        meadow.stanford.edu     pub/sca-faq/
        rainbow.cse.nau.edu     sca/faq/
        bransle.ucs.mun.ca      pub/sca/sca-faq/
3.  Request a copy from me via email.
4.  Retrieve the FAQ from news.answers, or any site with news.answers
    archives.

And again a reminder: if you have suggestions for things to include in
the FAQ, or opinions to offer on anything that is already there, please
mail me - I may not see a suggestion buried in a posting to the Rialto.
I respond to all comments I receive, and occasionally summarize to the
Rialto if it seems appropriate.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca