HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: EC KILLS CHILDREN! (Was: Increasing amount of people against EU in Denmark)
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:26:54 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <ABRAHAM.92Apr4104720@loke.iesd.auc.dk> abraham@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) writes:
>>>>>> On 3 Apr 92 14:45:41, hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel) said:
>Hans> But the social charter only
>Hans> puts forward a set of minimum standards which our country still
>Hans> manages to exceed.
>Hans> I doubt that we as Danes will benefit from the
>Hans> social charter. Rather it might make it more difficult for Danish
>Hans> unions to negotiate better deals because of the precedence that the
>Hans> charter is setting.

  An interesting application of your argument here would be to oppose minimum
wage:)

  Before minimum wage, some companies give their employees low wages (below the
proposed minimum wage) and some give their employees high wages (over the 
proposed minimum wage).
  If minimum wages are instituted however, it will set a precedent for those
companies with high wages to lower them to the minimum wage.

  Notice that I don't belive the above about minimum wage.

>Do you really believe the Danish unions will be able to get a
>significantly better deal than the German workers, when there is no
>longer any economic border between Germany and Denmark?

  Who gets the better deal today? Danes or Germans?

  According to all propaganda in Sweden, it must be us Swedes:)

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 9 Apr 92 11:01:55 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Apr8.085001.22625@lth.se>, sundinKC@dna (Anders Sundin) writes:
>in the article. The Swedish-speaking in Finland are supposed to
>"have their own culture" that the rest of Finland does not want
>to know about.

Well, I've seen at town a few advertisements about some occasions
handling S|dergran and the advertisements and occasions apparently
were Finnish.

//Jyrki
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking
Date: 9 Apr 92 10:49:15 GMT
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland

In article <1992Apr8.120624.10845@husc3.harvard.edu> percus@husc9.harvard.edu (Allon Percus) writes:
>In article <ISAC.92Apr8092539@rieska.oulu.fi> isac@rieska.oulu.fi (Juha Iisakka) writes:
>>You are a paranoid. Most of people is not interested of poems.
>
>I guess that makes Finnish culture something of an oxymoron then.
>
>
>Allon Percus

A comment,
I have always considered Huckleberry Finn being the most famous Finnish
figure in the litterature but the americans are arguing against:-0
jarmo
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:16:23 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

Yngve Koehler Raustein writes:

>There will always be people who use the system for their own benefit, but you're
>pretty paranoid if you think that this actually amounts to paying twice the
>amount you would have to pay for your own expenditures.  Are you saying that
>you object to paying taxes for those unable to care for themselves?

>The basic idea behind taxes in a social democracy is that those who earn the
>most pay the most, thus supporting those less fortunate.

Let's look at three cases:

1. I'm poor. I can't afford e.g. school for my children. The government
	pays it for me.

2. I'm not poor, I can (just) afford school for my children. The government
	takes this money and pays it for me. Since the government has
	taken my money, I can't afford sending my children to a private
	school. The government wouldn't pay this for me. I have no
	freedom to choose which school my children should go to. I say
	this freedom is a *democratic freedom* q.e.d.        

3. I'm rich. The government takes money from me to pay poor peoples'
	schools (case 1). I don't mind much. The government also takes
	money to pay for my childrens' places in public school. I send
	my children to a private school, and pay for it myself. I have
	payed for my childrens' school *twice* q.e.d.

>It would be interesting to see if you could actually put together a coherent
>and constructive criticism of the Swedish welfare state, not just "all we
>need is lower taxes and more `freedom'."

That's not *all* we need, but we still need it, desperately.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Usenet in Finland (was: A couple of question ...)
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 19:28:07 GMT

> In <1992Apr14.153438.10269@cc.umontreal.ca> coady@ERE.UMontreal.CA writes:
>> 	And now a question for the Swedes out there.  Are there any sites
>> in Stockholm which allow public access to e-mail.  My sister just moved
>> there, ending the e-mail access we had when she was working here in 
>> Canada.  So it'd be nice if she could log on to a site in Stockholm using
>> her home computer and modem.  Thanks again for any advice.

Along similar lines ... my brother moved back to Finland is now living near
Pori.  Are there any Unix systems in Finland which would be willing to
provide a UUCP mail connection?  Mail only would probably be enough, news
isn't a necessity (he's not addicted yet!).

Any suggestions are appreciated!

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
From: ericd@concour.cs.concordia.ca (DELORME eric p)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 7 Apr 92 04:28:02 GMT
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

In article <1992Apr6.160749.24709@kth.se> matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.073634.27102@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se 
>(Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>
>>right, you have to pay tax for the tax you pay! Welcome to Sweden!
>>
>The same goes for the tax on gasoline, alcohol, casette tapes, perfumes, 
>tobacco and other specialized taxes.  Isn't it wonderful to pay tax on 
>taxes?                                                       :-)
>
>
>mats

Gee, that sounds an awful lot like Canada! We get to pay GST (Goods &
Services Tax) on top of all import duties & excises. In Quebec, we even
get to pay PST (Provincial Sales Tax) ON TOP OF the GST.

Usually, food is exempt. But some *STUPID* rules do exist. For example,
unsalted peanuts are not taxable (as they are a cooking ingredient), but
salted peanuts are (they're a snack). A 500mL carton of chocolate milk
is taxable, but a 501mL carton isn't! (One's a snack, the other's a
take-home "family" size, get it?)

Anyhow, I'm going to be moving to Denmark at the end of May for 6 months.
Could someone kindly enlighten me as to the tax situation there? I know
the VAT is high, but how high is it? I also know they "hide" it in the 
price, unlike here where you always get a nasty surprise at the cash...




--
----
Eric DeLorme
ericd@concour.cs.concordia.ca
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2787 soc.culture.europe:3657 eunet.politics:620
From: eric@sejnet.sunet.se (Eric Thomas, SUNET)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of EU (was Re: Increasing EU opposition in Denmark)
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:56:19 GMT
Reply-To: eric@sejnet.sunet.se
Organization: Swedish University Network (SUNET), Stockholm, Sweden
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-5

In article <1992Apr9.212928.5083@daimi.aau.dk>, rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes...
>Let me get this right, when you are _inside_ the EU you have to decrease
>public spendings in order to compete with the member countries, but when
>you are _outside_ the EU you _don't_ have to decrease public spendings
>in order to compete with member countries? Are you saying that you have
>a more competitive position when you outside the EU? 

Let me give you an example. Switzerland is presently outside the EEC, and has a
very inefficient food industry that costs a lot of money but can feed the whole
country if needed (the pro-army people insist on this factor). This industry
employs a lot of people and is in rather good shape - the Swiss have to eat and
they have taxes of 100% or more on imported goods to align them with the swiss
prices. The day Switzerland joins the EEC, this industry can start looking for
people to buy the land it was built on, because Switzerland will not be allowed
to tax food coming from France and Germany any longer. We are talking of
differences of a factor of 2 or more, especially on meat, milk, etc.

I am not saying this is a healthy situation, but it is nonetheless real.
Joining the EEC had better give Switzerland something to compensate for all the
people who will suddenly not have a job any more. The Swiss do not really need
to worry about competing with the EEC if they do not join, because people will
come to them anyway. For instance, when you buy milk in Europe it usually comes
in a patented package known as "Tetrapak". This is a swedish invention, but
things being as they are over here, the inventor moved to Switzerland years ago
and created a company there. Now the whole world buys swedish "Tetrapak"
packages from Switzerland - including poor countries like Spain and Portugal,
and even Japan. In spite of having the highest prices in Europe, Switzerland is
visited by many tourists each and every year. In fact, I have met many
Americans in Geneva on a "Tour of Europe", and they not only stopped in this
boring and expensive city where there is nothing to see apart from the lake,
they were on their way to Zurich. Two cities among the 10 they were going to
see were in Switzerland. If they joined the EEC, foreign companies could freely
exploit this, and domestic companies would have to become competitive with
them. As things stands, domestic companies can set the prices they want and
enjoy all the dollars without having to share.

  Eric
From: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren))
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Reply-To: matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:07:49 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.073634.27102@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se 
(Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
  [I wrote]
>
>>we now pay "moms" (VAT) on just about everything.  Before the
>>reform, there was no "moms" on domestic travels, gasoline, telephone calls,
>>electricity for households, which there now is (just to mention some of the 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Not to mention that there is now moms on the *electricity TAX*. Yes that's
>right, you have to pay tax for the tax you pay! Welcome to Sweden!
>
The same goes for the tax on gasoline, alcohol, casette tapes, perfumes, 
tobacco and other specialized taxes.  Isn't it wonderful to pay tax on 
taxes?                                                       :-)


mats


********************************************************************************

  mats dahlgren 
  Dept. of Physical Chemistry		Mail:	matsd@physchem.kth.se
  The Royal Institute of Technology	Phone:	+46 8 790 8595
  S-100 44  Stockholm, Sweden           Fax:	+46 8 790 8207

              All opinions expressed above are private opinions.
From: percus@husc9.harvard.edu (Allon Percus)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining de
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:13:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Apr8.121334.10847
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr8.080908.12987@eua.ericsson.se> euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>Of course swedish education costs. Paying it over
>the tax bill instead of directly to the school only makes the economy
>of it less efficient...

Well right then, if you want a really efficient system why don't
you just take the university system we have here in the U.S. and
pay ~ 100,000Kr a year for your education.  Do you like that better?

And of course the efficiency of the privately run American medical
profession is legendary.  $1000 a night to be in a hospital.  $100
to get a doctor to say hello to you.

Oh yes, it is indeed a well-known fact that if you pay for something
directly it is very efficient and inexpensive.

Allon Percus
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Archaic Viking dialect in the news
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:07:16 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr9.120950.12279@eua.ericsson.se>, euaaen@eua.ericsson.se
(Anders Engwall) writes:
> There are in fact several semi-extinct dialects that have kept a somewhat
> archaic structure, e g Ja"mtska, which is/was spoken in Ja"mtland and is
> even more different from Standard Swedish than A"lvdalska.
> 
> >  A"lvdalska is taught in a dozen schools in northern Dalerna, central
> >Sweden, where the dialect has survived thanks to the region's remoteness
> >and despite a ban which lasted until 1960 on speaking it in public.
> 
> A ban on speaking it in public? Now, that I just don't believe. There might
> be som grain of truth in it, though, like pupils being forbidden to speak
> it in school or so.

What about the Swedish spoken on Gotland and Oland, isn't that also
very ancient, related to the original Swedish spoken by vikings? This
dialect reminds me of my own Finnish-Swedish one, a lot of vowel 
combinations missing in standard Swedish, and use of gender (as in German).

Cheers,
Kent
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Fighting Racism?
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:31:45 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology


  There are a little school in a corner of Sweden where the students in the
ninth and last year of Grundskolan [Elementary School?] organize the 
graduation cermonies themselves.

  This year however a nasty rumour reached the ears of the Principal. 
It said that the students had planned to sing the Swedish national anthem at
one point during the graduation cermonies. The Principal immediately 
interposed himself and told the pupils that they were forbidden to sing the
Swedish national anthem on graduation because of "racist connotations".

  A big ruckus erupted, and at first the Principal held on to his view and
offered rationalizations like "We already sing it once a year!", but in
the end he gave in.

  There is no doubt his intentions was good, but we know what road good
intentions pave. What will the students think when racist cliques try to
fool people into believing that Swedish authorities and politicians want to
de-Swede the country at the same time as their own Principal forbid them
to sing the Swedish national anthem? 
  If I attributed to malice what can be attributed to stupidity I would 
really question the motives of that Principal.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 14 Apr 92 12:24:29 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Apr10.034910.17728@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>If there is anything wrong with social services in Sweden, it
>is that the costs don't sufficiently reflect ability to pay.

  The political vocabulary of a country is very much defined by what issues
that are current when it is "formed". The US fought for freedom from the
Brits, thus "Freedom" is a big concept over there. The Bolsjevik party in
Russia gained mass support from the dissatisfaction with the war against
the Germans, thus "Peace" was a big word while Russia was called the "USSR".

  We don't have any actual comparisions here in Sweden, but a similar 
phenomena. During the late 19th century and early 20th, when the generation
that would become big politicians during the 40's and 50's grew up, certain
social services worked in certain ways which has influenced Swedish politics
ever since.

  First of all, the free lunch in school. At that time it was common for
the pupils to bring their own food to school in a lunchbox. Naturally some
children had more or better food than others, and quite probably those 
others felt ashamed over the fact that their families were poor, the Lutheran
work ethic being what it was then. 
  So when they grew up and got to power, the free school lunches was 
started. This is still a political holy cow of such magnitude that school-
boards refrain from updating the books, let the furniture and real-estate
deteriorate, fire teachers and institute teacher-less 'teaching' all in 
order to keep providing the free shcool lunch.
  I don't actually believe they they feel that it isn't important if they
learn anything in school, as long as they can eat in school, but I think that
the events during their childhood so traumatized them that they can't look
rationally upon the question of free school lunches.

  Similarly with the "general welfare" (allm{n v{lf{rd). During the same
period of time, all social subsidies was quite strictly regulated through
local boards that made an individual investigation in each case. That ment
that it became general knowledge in the community that certain familites 
were poor. This led to shame and guilt (Luthers ghost here again) and
certainly to harassment from kids with "honest working" parents.
  So then the "general welfare" was instituted. It was never general of course
and it never covered all areas, but a good example is the child subsidie.
Everybody, regardless of if they earn $16000 or $800000 per year get the same
amount in child subsidies. It is only dependant on the number of children.
  But to try to put a cut-off point on it would be political suicide.
  
  I think that answers your comment about "ability to pay" and childcare.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
From: JLEHTIMAKI@finabo.abo.fi (Janne Lehtim{ki PAP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: A couple of question for Swedes and Finns
Date: 15 Apr 92 10:16:00 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Apr14.153438.10269@cc.umontreal.ca> coady@ERE.UMontreal.CA writes:

> Hello all.
> 	First of all, a question for the Finns out there.  There are a few
> sites in the U.S. (well, one at least... the Cleveland Freenet) where one
> can telnet into the site and gain access to a daily news service.  There
> are similar services with local news at many different sites in North
> America.  What I would like to know is whether there are any similar 
> services in Finland.  I'm asking on behalf of my wife, who is Finnish
> and who doesn't get to read much about Finland in the newspapers here in
> Montreal.  Yes, I'm aware of the Finnish newspaper here in Canada and
> we've also considered subscribing to Suomen Kuvalehta (I'm sure I've
> screwed up the name of the newsmagazine) but we are fairly poor.
> Thanks for any advice.
> 	And now a question for the Swedes out there.  Are there any sites
> in Stockholm which allow public access to e-mail.  My sister just moved
> there, ending the e-mail access we had when she was working here in 
> Canada.  So it'd be nice if she could log on to a site in Stockholm using
> her home computer and modem.  Thanks again for any advice.
> 
> Kiitos and tak. 
> Mike Coady
> COADY@ERE.UMONTREAL.CA


I think at least Turun Sanomat provides newsservice via telefax,
every days newspaper is abbreviated to one page which is sent every
morning to subsribers via telefax. I do not know how much it costs
but at least it is really up to date........

                               Eip{ kest{,
                                          Janne Lehtimaki
From: baardm@stud.cs.uit.no (Baard Misund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Who'll be the next American President?
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:40:16 GMT
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway

In article <1992Apr09.035334.110072@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, gtr0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (GLEN TORLEIF RYEN) writes:

    No, the
|> >proudest moment in H. Ross Perot's life was when he became an Eagle
|> >Scout!
|> >
|> >*THAT* speakes volumes for the man's mind-set.
 
|> What exactly does it say about him?  I don't know much about Perot, but I can
|> understand why he chose reaching Eagle Scout as his proudest moment.
|> Obviously the author of the above comments never reached Eagle, if he was ever
|> a Boy Scout.

You're right. If he choses reaching Eagle as his proudest moment, this actually 
says a great deal about him as a person. Personally, I never reached eagle. I was 
1 lousy merit badge away. I looked up to Eagle scouts

|> As an Eagle Scout, I can attest to the years of hard work that
|> go into reaching that level.

Well, it depends on how mature you are when you get it. I have known scouts who
were Eagles when they were 14 (scoutmaster = father of course). 

|> Yet on the day I was formally declared an Eagle,
|> I was overwhelmed by the amount of recognition I recieved.  I recieved
|> certificates, a bond from the Police Department, and letters from every city,
|> state, and federal government official around (up to and including a personal
|> congratulatory note from George Herbert Walker Bush!).

Letters from Kings, prime ministers, Ronald Reagan etc.. (this happened to a 
friend of mine)
 
|> So don't condemn Perot for taking justifiable pride in something I *KNOW* he
|> put a lot of hard work into.  Not everyone becomes a Boy Scout, and very few
|> perservere long enough to attain the highest rank therein.  The National
|> Association of Eagle Scouts is a rather elite fraternity, who ranks include
|> more than a few presidents, heads of state, and captains of industry.  That is
|> why H. Ross Perot and myself feel great pride in being Eagle Scouts.

and film directors - Steven Spielberg 

|> Glen T. Ryen
|> Eagle Scout

Baard Misund
Life Scout
 
|> P.S.  I apologize that this post isn't Nordic in nature, but I had to respond
|> to what I considered an insult to me and every other Eagle Scout in the world.
|> Thank you.