HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmiller@aero.org (Lawrence H. Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: gear-down check
Date: 14 Oct 1992 23:08:35 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: palomar.aero.org

In article <2262@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)) writes:
>After starting this question I've stayed out of the discussion to see
>what develops.
>
>The military uses this technique. To all those who say pilots would
>rely on it and thus accidents would increase I ask do the military
>have a higher incidence of inadvertent gear up landings.  The answer
>is NO.

	I would conjecture, based on decades of human factors studies
	[see last paragrah], that gear ups would not decrease
	significantly, particularly at busy airports.  My feeling is
	that at busy airports, "Cleared to land, check gear down"
	becomes a mantra, part of the background noise, repeated so
	often, as not to be attended to.  Do you really remember the
	specific "Cleared to land" at your last tower airport?  I fly
	out of Santa Monica and Van Nuys, two of the busiest airports
	in the world.

	I've landed at military airports.  They're not very busy.
	The "Check gear down" was emphatic, isolated from other
	radio traffic, not part of a continuous stream of chatter.

	You can be sure we checked gear down.

	Having said this, though, I can't see how it can hurt.  I
	ran the Pilot's Associate program at ISI for a couple of
	years.  Our major contribution was in an intelligent speech
	system for communicating anomalous conditions to the pilot.
	I ran through several years of NTSB accident reports demonstrating
	the efficacy of appropriate speech generation methods in
	curtailing many air carrier accidents.  Our techniques focused
	on what to say, how to say it, when to repeat, how to prioritize,
	and how to understand the pilot's response.

-- 
Larry Miller		The Aerospace Corporation
lmiller@aero.org	PO Box 92957		
310-336-5597		LA, CA 90009-2957
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
From: pettypi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Carl Pettypiece)
Subject: Re: aircraft with the same names as land vehicles
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:38:41 GMT

How 'bout the Triumph Spitfire? Or the Jaguar.  I'm sure there's
a land-based Tornado, too (Dodge?).  Oh and then there's the Jeep Eagle,
the Ford Falcon, and not to be forgotten, the Corvette.  Hmm.
Bet there's lots more....

Post the list when it's done (if it ever gets done (-:).

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Pettypiece (pettypi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca)        Disclaimer:  Hell, I don't
Department of Computer Science                   even know if these are MY
University of Western Ontario                    opinions!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
From: john@liebnitz.ssd.kodak.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: aircraft with the same names as land vehicles
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 15:16:31 GMT

In article <1b572tINN3sa@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher) writes:
>Does anyone else remember the great {auto} Spitfire ad?
>It showed both kinds in a bit of a race....

Oh yeah!  With the mustached RAF pilot in the plane.  Short cuts back an
forth between mag switch/ignition switch, tach/tach, pilot/driver giving
each other thumbs-up.  Plane and car start rolling down grass runway.
Voice over "Triumph Spitfire.  You not only get the car and the girl,
you get a piece of history". 

Triumph also had a print ad for the Spitfire that showed it in camouflage
paint with RAF rondels on the doors.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Hall, Product Software Engineering, EASTMAN KODAK CO., Rochester NY
716 253 7446   john@kodak.COM   ...!rochester!kodak!ektools!john
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: juhasa@microsoft.com (Juha P. Salin)
Subject: Seaplane rental & instruction in Seattle area?
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:29:33 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.

Hi:
I would appreciate any info about seaplane instruction &
rentals in Seattle area.  Prices, models & FBOs.  Eastside
of Lake Washington would be ideal, but other places might
work as well.

Thanks,
Juha Salin
juhasa@microsoft.com
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Any comments about th
Date: 12 Oct 92 12:38:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

LE> .                            . Today I read that the 747 engine mounts
  > .are designed so that the engines actually fall off the aircraft if
  > .they have been damaged enough.

LE> .This latter statement seems totally incredible. I would have dismissed
  > .it straight away if it wasn't for alleged quotes by Boing people
  > .supporting it.

LE> .Does anyone know if this really IS true?!?

Yes, it is.  There are "fuse pins" holding the engine.  They are
designed to shear if the engine is vibrating severely enough to cause
damage to the wing structure.  There is currently an AD out, requiring
inspection of those fuse pins on certain models of the 74.  They have
been suspected in at least one prior accident, but to date they've never
been confirmed as a cause.

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
                                     
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: yasin@laser.dev.cdx.mot.com (Yasin)
Subject: Request some guidance in locating Commercial Aerobatic Clubs
Organization: MOTOROLA 
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:07:29 GMT

A friend of mine is trying to get in touch with clubs/organizations that
deal with commercial aerobatics, would very much appreciate any help in
this regards.

Thanx in advance.

Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Genave avionics
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:10:48 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.192953.5567@sunova.ssc.gov> mark@europa.ssc.goc (Mark Hall) writes:
>This post was supposed to ask if anyone has any info on Genave avionics.
>Specifically I have come by a Genave audio panel (model TAU-200) for my 
>homebuilt and would like to know if there is anybody who can tell me if
>these units are reliable, worth reapiring, etc? What's the company history?
>This unit looks just like a King; are they related? Are there any wiring diagrams
>in the house?
>
I have one here also, they are just a switching panel (no audio amp,
etc...).  there is a gent that runs a shop called "Lynx Electronics"
in Fountaintown, Indiana.  Used to work for genave-does good stuff (this
is not an endorsement-just an opinion...) - even managed to resurrect
a genave adf that I used for 5 years...You may want to give him a call,
he does repairs and can supply wiring diagrams.  (If you want, I have
the panel I replaced in my plane-works, just managed to come into
a whole narco panel as a hand-me-down on an upgrade...)

They work ok, and are as reliable as anything else in the avionics 
field.  I think the above shop does flat-rate service-something like
$75. a unit on genave or something like that (plus parts...).  

Bryan D. Boyle    |Opinions mine, not Exxon's
Senior Engineer   |former owner: Cherokee N7068W

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: CHARTER: rec.aviation.owning
Followup-To: rec.aviation.misc
Reply-To: geoff@peck.com
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:23:17 GMT

Welcome to rec.aviation.owning.  This message, and companion messages
like it, will be posted to each of the new rec.aviation.* groups weekly
through the end of November, to allow people to view the charters of each
newsgroup and better understand where to post articles.

The charter of rec.aviation.owning is:

****************************************************************************
*   Information on owning airplanes:  selection, purchasing, maintenance,  *
*   insurance, operating costs, operating hints and tips, avionics, parts  *
*   sources and availability, costs, etc.                                  *
****************************************************************************

There are now a thirteen separate subgroups on rec.aviation; if the charter
above doesn't match the content of the article you're posting (or you're
following up), please consider one of the other groups as a more
appropriate forum:

    announce (MOD)    military      piloting        soaring
    answers  (MOD)    misc          products        stories (MOD)
    homebuilt         owning        simulators      student
    ifr 

A common question is "what should I do if an article spans the charters of
two or more groups?"  The answer is cross-posting.  If you have an article
which clearly crosses the boundaries of several groups, you should post a
**single** copy of the article to **all* of the groups.  Don't post
separate copies to each group.  Most modern newsreaders will display the
article exactly once to the reader -- in the first group in which it is
encountered and read.

If you feel that the replies should be directed to a subset of the groups
to which you are submitting your post, be sure to include a line of the
form "Followup-to: groupname" in the header of your message.  See the
header of this message for an example.

If you are replying to a cross-posted article and your reply is germane to
only a subset of the original groups, please ensure that you check the
Newsgroups: line to remove unnecessary groups.  If the reply is germane to
all the groups in which the article was originally posted, try to ensure
that all the groups are listed in the Newsgroups: line.  Some older
newsreaders cause a reply to go only to the group which is currently being
read.

Use cross-posting sparingly.  If an article "90% belongs" in one group and
"10% belongs" in another, post it only to the first group.

						Geoff

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: schneidj@eecs.wsu.edu  (John B. Schneider)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Reply-To: schneidj@eecs.wsu.edu
Organization: Washington State University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 15:06:24 GMT

In article <1aulenINN8fd@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj  
Pisczak) writes:
> If any of you
> have some pearls of wisdom to toss before me about that first big
> step I will listen with rapt attention.

The first step, of course, is join AOPA.

> I will likely attempt to
> purchase a Cessna 182, possibly with a partner.  I have heard that
> the banks will not loan on anything older than 20 years, even if the
> airframe and engine have low hours.  I have also heard that at one
> time they would consider a ten year loan, but now have reduced it
> to 5 or 7-1/2 years.

The banks I talked to locally had no idea what an airplane was worth.  They
would only give me an unsecured loan.  I got in touch with Maryland National
Bank since they are the AOPA Airpower Loan people.  15 years, loan up to 80%
of the value of the aircraft (no mention of a 20 year limit on aircraft age),
variable rate (prime plus 2 -- which is a lot lower than the mortgage I
currently have!), and the best part is that if you get a loan for over $20k,  
they pay your AOPA dues for the life of the loan.  Another bonus was that 
they have plenty of experience with aircraft, title search, filing leans, etc.

Naturally, you milage may vary.

John B. Schneider
schneidj@eecs.wsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 17:32:28 GMT

In article <ljthompson-071092110305@mac2g237.msd.anl.gov> ljthompson@anl.gov (loren thompson) writes:
>Ok
>You now have a partnership and a 25 year old SKYLANE,
>what do the yearly costs really average out to?
>What concerns me is I can afford to buy, but can I afford to own?

In general you will find that aircraft ownership is cheaper than renting if
you put at least 70 hours per year on the plane. Below that, renting is
cheaper.

To get a rough approximation, figure your fixed costs and hourly costs. Add
together the fees for tie-down, insurance, and annual inspection. Double the
basic cost of the annual to allow for odd things they'll find. If you want
to approach accuracy, toss in about a grand for maintenance during the year.

There's your fixed cost - it costs you this even if you only fly one hour
in a year.

Hourly costs are basically fuel, oil, and amortization of the engine. That
works like this. My engine costs ~$8k to overhaul. TBO is 2,000 hours. The
amortization cost is $4 per hour.

For example - My 1969 Cessna 150 runs

Fixed costs				Hourly Costs
-----------				------------
Insurance	$760			7 gal. fuel		$15.40
Tie-down	$600			1/2 pint oil		 $1.25
Annual	      $1,000			Engine bank		 $4.00
Maint.	      $1,000						 -----
               -----						$20.65
              $3,360

There are also costs associated with the loans, but most owners ignore
these, since older aircraft are generally appreciating in value at about
the same rate as the interest on the loan.

For a 172, your engine amortization will be about $8.00 (depends on the
engine), and you'll burn a couple more gallons fuel per hour. I have my
hull insurance set at $15k. Insurance seems to cost about $200 per 5k
valuation.

Disclaimer - All this is approximate. You'll have bad years. Last year
my annual cost me $1,905 and my other maintenance for the year was over
$2,000 (I had to have two cylinders topped at ~500 hours).

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | "Under Consideration": We never heard of it.
George Patterson -  | "Under Active Consideration": We're searching the
                    |    files for it.
                    |         Kelvin Throop - The Management Dictionary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ingham@hydra.unm.edu (Kenneth Ingham)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Loans
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:16:43 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

I financed 46L (including the cost of getting it from Oregon to
Albuquerque) by taking out a loan with my Truck as collateral.  THis
way, if I quit making payments, I can still bicycle out to the airport
and fly :-)

-- 
Kenneth Ingham WD5BBT
ingham@i-pi.com or ingham@ariel.unm.edu (NeXTMail OK)
Hummin' little Grumman N9646L
From: jac1@ra.msstate.edu (Jennifer Cox)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Selling private planes
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:08:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Mississippi State University


A friend of my dad has a great plane that he bought some years ago.
He is a physician and loved to fly to relieve stress.  Something
happened and he sold the plane.  He thought nothing of it when the
man paid him with a cashiers check.  He also got the guy to sign
a bill of sale for his records.  About 6 months later, an FBI agent
and a DEA agent showed up at his office.  They started asking him
about the plane he owned and showed him pictures to identify it.
He told them he had sold the airplane a few months back and it
took the bill of sale he had the guy sign to get them off his case.
Turns out they had found it abandoned on a small dirt strip loaded
down with marijuana.  

I guess the moral to this story is be sure and get some proof
if you sell a small airplane because you never know what it
might wind up ferrying.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: Cherokee 180 operating costs
Organization: Pomona College
Distribution: usa
Date: 13 Oct 92 11:46:24 PDT

> A group of pilots I regularly fly with are considering purchasing
> a Cherokee 180 (mid 70's).  I would like information from other 180
> pilots concerning the operating costs.  What is the fuel burn, are parts
> hard to find, are there particular years or models which should be 
> avoided?
> Thanks for any assistance,

The latest issue of Private Pilot has a nice article on the Archer/Cherokee
180. You may want to look at it.

______________________________________________________________________________
Javier Henderson, N6VBG         | Beat the 55mph limit (legally):
jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu | Learn to fly!
From: ljthompson@anl.gov (loren thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:05:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: mac2g237.ljthompson-071092110305
Followup-To: rec.aviation.owning
Organization: ANL

Ok
You now have a partnership and a 25 year old SKYLANE,
what do the yearly costs really average out to?
What concerns me is I can afford to buy, but can I afford to own?
Thanks
loren

In article <7043@transfer.stratus.com>, lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee
Cooprider) wrote:
> 
> In article <1aulenINN8fd@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:
> >I will likely attempt to purchase a Cessna 182, possibly with a partner.
> >I have heard that the banks will not loan on anything older than 20 years
> >even if the airframe and engine have low hours.
> 
> I bought a 25-year-old Skylane, and, while I did not finance it directly
> (thanks to a home equity loan that could cover it) I heard no such
> restrictions from anyone.  I recommend using a bank or other agency with a
> significant history in aircraft loans; many banks don't understand them.
> 
> >How many partners is ideal (assuming compatible personalities)?  
> 
> Three is enough to reduce cost but not overly restrict flying time.  Also,
> votes are never ties :-)
> 
> -- 
> Lee W. Cooprider				PP-ASEL/IA
> Lee_Cooprider@vos.stratus.com			Skylane N2908F "Wiley"

ljthompson@anl.gov

when i think up a good signature i will put it here 'maybe'
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 16:01:33 GMT

In article <1aulenINN8fd@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:

>	Well, it looks like from this end that I am the first to
>post (with exception to the charter and salutations) to this
>forum.  Is that an echo I hear out there? :) I'll give this a
>whirl anyway.  It seems to me that I have been renting aircraft
>for possibly forever.  Although I am not in a cash surplus
>situation (is anybody?) I get the nagging feeling that if I don't
>start planning now that the day may never come.  If any of you
>have some pearls of wisdom to toss before me about that first big
>step I will listen with rapt attention.  I will likely attempt to
>purchase a Cessna 182, possibly with a partner.  I have heard that
>the banks will not loan on anything older than 20 years, even if the
>airframe and engine have low hours.  I have also heard that at one
>time they would consider a ten year loan, but now have reduced it
>to 5 or 7-1/2 years.

Are you a member of a credit union? I found that mine treated aircraft
in the same class as a recreational vehicle. The main problem I had
was that there was only one loan officer which handled aircraft. If I
could have bought the aircraft first and then arranged for the loan, it
would have been a piece of cake, but they were reluctant to turn over
the money until I had title, and the broker was reluctant to turn over
the title until he had the money.

So I took out a signature loan. Basically, verify that your CU will let
you convert it to a secured loan, using the aircraft as collateral, take
out the signature loan, buy the plane, and convert to a lower interest
rate once the title changes hands.

Failing this, join AOPA. They have arrangements with several banks (notably
MBNA) to finance aircraft.

My aircraft is a high-time 1969 model, so you've been told wrong about the
20 years. My C.U. was willing to finance the deal on a 15 year payback,
but that was 3 years ago.

One other thing. I'm a member of three C.U.s and only one finances
aircraft.

Good luck.

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | "Under Consideration": We never heard of it.
George Patterson -  | "Under Active Consideration": We're searching the
                    |    files for it.
                    |         Kelvin Throop - The Management Dictionary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Insurance Compaines
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 18:06:54 GMT

In article <stellabo.718478274@phage.cshl.org> stellabo@phage.cshl.org (Fred Stellabotte) writes:
>I am in  the process of buying an aircraft ...
>
>Can anyone suggest a good insurance company ..or 
>tell me which compaines to stay away from ..??

I had Avemco for a while. I've heard that they live up to their ads. You
may be able to get a better deal, though. I switched to Rollins, Burdick,
& Hunter because they were cheaper.

Their number is 1-800-835-2677.

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | "Under Consideration": We never heard of it.
George Patterson -  | "Under Active Consideration": We're searching the
                    |    files for it.
                    |         Kelvin Throop - The Management Dictionary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: al@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Alan Peterman)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:34:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct15.143439.10642
Distribution: usa
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

In article <1992Oct14.180035.28347@news.acns.nwu.edu> kkalan@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kenneth Kalan) writes:
>Just another opinion, I seem to remember my instructor wanting to do something
>similar, but I believe he said that besides going to school for the training
>you would also have to do an apprenticeship for x hundreds of hours.

Unless the rules have been changed in the last 2 years, the basic rule
for getting an A&P was 18 months full time experience.  This meant
either a 18 month "apprentiseship" at a licensed repair station,
or 18 months at a school that has an FAA repair license.  Either
way it means committing 3000 hours..which is a bit much just to
take care of your own plane.


-- 
Alan L. Peterman                                 (503)-684-1984 hm & work
                       al@qiclab.scn.rain.com
It's odd how as I get older, the days are longer, but the years are shorter!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning