From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Isaiah does not prophesy Christ
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<root.726185202@spssig>
Date: 5 Jan 1993 04:58:02 UTC

In article <root.726185202@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <root.726157205@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>>>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>>>Almost every religion makes this claim, implicitly or not.  That it holds
>>>>>the one, true way, and is the sole possesor of God's truth.  Christianity,
>>>>>Islam and Judaism sure do...
>>>>This statement is not correct. This kind of dogmatic thinking is largely
>>>>limited to the two great conversion religions: Christianity and Islam.
>>>Hardly 'not correct'...first of all, I said 'most,' and secondly, all three
>>>of the ones I pointed out fit the bill (ie those that make up >95% of
>>>western religion.  In any event, a religion is basically a system of
>>>truths, which generally rejects other systems of truths.
>>Judaism does not reject other religions or Gods. The LORD of the Hebrews
>>is the only LORD - of the *Hebrews*. Judaism is not a conversion religion
>>and there is no after death penalty or reward.
>Uhm, my reading of the OT seems to say that YHWH is 'THE' God, and no other
>God's may come before Him...I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure that
>Hebrew monotheism denied the existence of other Gods...

Only for Hebrews. Genesis3:22(JPS): And the LORD God said, "Now that the
man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should
stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and
live forever!" Most tribal religions are like this, there is one set of
deities for the tribe, but they are of course only for the tribe. Other
tribes have their own deities, maybe stronger, maybe weaker. Once you
make the claim that your religion is the only true world religion for
all peoples, then you have a conversion religion where anything is
justified in the name of "selling" the "truth." Christianity and Islam
are the two great conversion religions. Think about it. It's a big one.

>>And, I find your definition of religion to be an insult to the word.
>>[Webster's II]:
>>religion: 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power accepted
>>as the creator and governor of the universe. b. A specific unified
>>system of this expression <the Buddhist religion>. 2. The spiritual or
>>emotional attitude of one who recognizes the existance of a superhuman
>>power or powers. 3. An objective pursued with fervor or conscientious
>>devotion <make a religion of a hobby>.
>But from a philosophical point of view, if ones religion doesn't claim to
>be right, then what is it?

What is right? If you and I are both Christians of the same sect, even
the same church, do we really have the same religion, the same beliefs,
the same understanding of the world? What is the right understanding of
the Christian triune? What is the right relationship with Jesus? What is
the right relationship with mother, father, brother, sister, spouse,
children? When is a good day to live and a good day to die? What is the
right way to raise the Sun? What is the right way to press the grapes
and the olives? What is the right way to clear the land and plant the
corn and work the fields? What is right?

>In other words, it expresses a metaphysical
>world view that in general, is somewhat exclusionary of others...

Why must it be exclusionary? Can we all just get along? Is unity of
diversity not achievable? Is the only answer a Disneyland culture, a
world of Michael Jacksons? Why this hatred? Everybody crying for peace,
nobody crying for justice, I don't need peace, I need equal rights and
justice. Hither I trod true this valley, yet I fear no evil, because,
jah guide, jah guide, jah guide. What is right? What is white? What is
black? What is religion? What is? What?

>>Why must your type of religion reject other types of religion? Why can't
>>I say that He whom you call Yahweh, I call Brahma or Kali or Buddha? Why
>>can't I say that He whom you call Christ, I call Krishna? What makes
>>your right The RIGHT and what makes my right The WRONG? What makes you
>>think that your beliefs are the only valid beliefs for everyone else?
>Naming 'God' by different names is not what relious systems are about.
>There are great differences between eastern and western religions...
>Perhaps God has revealed himself differently to different groups, but that
>seems to be a stretch when some religions down-right contradict others.

Christianity contradicts itself. So what? You were expecting something
different? There is one thing about people. No two are alike, all
different people, all contradictions of the one. So what? I say worlds
above and worlds below, no one in the world like me. Does this make it
so? Different strokes for different folx, does it really make a
difference what gang I'm in? I am everyday people, everyday, but surely
you are too?

>>What is this RIGHT/WRONG? GOOD/EVIL? Shoot an arrow of condemnation and
>>it will surely return.
>This is the difference between eastern and western religions....or so it
>would seem.  When one makes a claim of ultimate truth, right/wrong and
>good/evil follow fairly naturally...

When one makes a *claim* of ultimate truth. You said it, not I. Worlds
above and worlds below ... [My dog is always barking ...]

>>>>For example, from the Hindu epic, The Mahabharata, Buck translation,
>>>>Yudhisthira talks to the lake of unquenchable thirst, his father Dharma:
>>>>Lake: "What is hypocrisy?"
>>>>Yudhi: "The setting up of religious standards for others is hypocrisy."
>>>>...
>>>>Yudhi: "I don't know what you think of all this."
>>>>Lake: "You answer well," said the invisible voice. "I am you father
>>>>Dharma. I came to test your merit, and I have found it true, and I
>>>>return your brothers to life."
>>>But Hinduism certainly claims that it is correct and true, nicht wahr? 
>>No, it does not make any such claim. Why should it? Notice above that
>>the Lake did not say, you answer correctly, the Lake said, you answer
>>well. If it can be said that there is a central concept of Hinduism, it
>>is probably dharma, meaning "do the right thing." And who knows what is
>>the right thing? Only you can know - for you.
>So then what is 'right' for me is 'truth'...and back around the circle
>again...

Whose "truth" is "right" for you? If a great prophet came to you and
said follow me and be free, would you follow? Why?
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc