From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: dating and commitment (and honesty!)
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:39:03 GMT
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu

In article <1dumrmINNrlk@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>Brother, we were talking the same language if you had just let your
>horses alone for a minute.  I was being critical of Crudup because
>he just went along swimmingly as it were, with an undefined
>relationship.

From what he wrote, there is equal evidence that his SO was going
along "swimmingly" as well, and that the relationship was "defined" to
her satisfaction until she saw the tv show.

>If he had fronted in the beginning, and cushioning
>that with his usual savoir faire, nothing of this would have
>occurred.

There is no guarantee that nothing would have happened if he had been
honest (and again, I saw no evidence that he was not honest).  Also,
at the beginning of a relationship, most people don't really know what
they want.  They have an idea of how they feel and how they'd like
things to progress from there (call it hopes or dreams or whatever).
After the first few months are over and you get used to the day-to-day
realities of relating to the other person, you have a better idea of
what you (and they) want.

>Does it have to be always the sister who is putting on the breaks?

No.  However, if the sister is unhappy, she should put on the brakes.
If she says she's happy, and she acts like she's happy (and so does
he) there shouldn't be any need for anyone to put on the brakes.

>My man said NOTHING of the kind.  His outward trappings was
>apparently what set the girl thinkin. Girlfriend was simply
>tabulating, like most sisters do when they see a so-called prize.

I suppose "tabulating" is an acceptable way of handling oneself in a
relationship. (NOT!)

[Regarding how I handled myself in the relationship with a woman who
loved me, but I didn't love]
>Both me and your sister are correct.  This is a double message if I
>ever saw one.

Where is the double message?  As I wrote:

>>I wasn't seeing anyone else, because I was happy to be spending time
>>with her and no one else.  She said that it was cool by her.

I suppose if I had been seeing someone else, with or without her
knowledge, this would have been a more clear message (like I was a
dog).  You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

>Be straight first off and don't take advantage of the
>situation, especially if she's in love with you.  This is what I
>call stringing.

You have a strange definition of stringing.  I think if someone is
honest about how they feel, and the other person won't hear what
they're saying, they're just denying the truth to themselves.

[I decided to end the relationship because of the unequal feelings]
>Well, finally you got the message, but still you caused some grief,
>brother.

Well, no relationship is perfect.  I didn't make her unhappy on
purpose.  I suppose she would have been happier if I'd seen other
women on the side, or if I'd never gotten involved with her at all.
Relationships end sometimes, because people change, or can't live up
to the image the other person has of them.

Incidentally, we have a nice friendship now.

>Hell.  Both women and men should not be waiting for each other to
>say something. If the girl/brother admits she's in love with you,
>don't just mess with her thinking, well, I just like her.  Talk to
>each other.  Give them a little distance.  Tell them to see other
>folks, and be serious about it. Anything other than that is
>stringing.

I placed NO restrictions on my ex.  I was very clear about how I felt
(and *she knew it*).  She even told me, after she told me that she
loved me, that it was ok that I didn't love her.  I liked her a lot,
as I said before.  There was no duplicity in my words or actions.
She could have left anytime she wanted.

>I'm sure you may have had the right intentions, but there
>is something perverse sometimes when guys know they are "loved,"
>they don't wanna front off, they wanna milk it for all its worth and
>then maintain they are blameless when the deal goes down.

Naturally, I disagree with everything you just said.  I think there's
something perverse about people who try to twist reality to suit
themselves, and then blame the other person when things don't go their
way.  Fine ... it's their life, but I'm not gonna get caught up in it.

>I will say, women have a different way of talking than men.  If we
>would only begin to learn each other's languages, possibly all this
>misunderstanding and stuff would end.

I think that plain honest english is unambiguous.