From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: RE: Contradictions in Quran?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Originator: Mughal@Romeo.Caltech.Edu (Asim Mughal -Moderator)
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 06:13:00 GMT


[Postmarked: 10 Aug '92 ]

[This is my reply, I do not have time to thoroughly investigate anything
so this is from the tip of my tongue. I post this here so that more
knowledgeable people may correct or comment on it. I do not mean by
corrections debating whether atheism is a valid religon or not; I mean
comments based upon scholastic opinions rather than misunderstandings!
The same reply was mailed to the poster, only typos or grammatical errors
may be different here, all else is literal. -- nabeelghuzlaan]

>Although I am not a Muslim, I have developed a respect for Islam by living
>most of my life in Pakistan. However, some contradictions in the Holy Quran
>were recently pointed out to me. Before I believe in any of them, I
>would like to hear the other side of the story from Muslim scholars. 

>Please read the following only if you are a scholar of Islam. I need
>correct, logical answers, not more contradictions and misinformation.
>----------------------------------------------

   I am not a scholar of Islam but I think I may be helpful and when in doubt
of something I will try to say so.

>Question 1:
>In Surah 3:3. He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that
>which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel
>aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

>5:46. And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of
>Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We
>gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying 
>what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition 
>for those who guard (against evil).

>Also 5:68 and 57:27.

>6:115 And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly
>and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is
>the Hearing, the Knowing.

>10:64 They shall have good news in this world's life and in the
>hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the
>mighty achievement.

>41:43. Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the 
> apostles before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of 
> forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution.

>The above verses clearly state that the Bible is God's word, and that God's
>word cannot be changed. 

   In "God's words can not be changed," a word means a promise, when God says
they are going to Heaven, then they ARE, nothing can change it.
   In "Jesus is the word of God," word means a command ("BE"), so Jesus 
originated from this word (he is not God or son of God).
   In "Injil is God's word," word means revelation. So God revealed the Injil
upon Jesus.
   The first two meanings of word can not be changed, i.e. if God promises or
says to something "BE", nothing can change that. But in the case of Torat,
Injil, Koran (and other revelation books e.g. Zabour, Abraham's papers, etc.)
what can be changed and abrogated is the law in there. So even in Koran, first
there was a verse which prevents people from praying drunk, then later another
verse prohibited alcohol altogether abrogating the first verse.
   BUT in those books God's promises, statements of facts, etc. remain valid.
And according to God (in Koran), he promised in Torat, Injil and other books
that a prophet would be coming and followers of those religions must follow
him, He indeed sent that prophet, Muhammad.

>Then the Quran points out errors in the Bible, which
>I think is a contradiction:

>4:171. O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your
>religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the
>truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah
>and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit
>from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say
>not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far
>be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the
>heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient
>for a Protector.

>This is contradictory to the Bible, since there are several verses in the
>Bible that claim that God himself came to the earth as Jesus, and Jesus
>himself said that he was God. I have read these verses, and there is no room
>for any doubt about their meaning. I am not listing those verses from the 
>Bible here, but I can provide a list separately to whoever needs it. It is
>also available for anonymous ftp on z.eecs.umich.edu (141.212.99.7) in
>the file /pub/christ

>If there is a difference between 2 books, either one can be wrong. But if
>the Quran has already claimed that The Bible is God's word, and God's word
>cannot be changed, then this is a contradiction in the Quran. 
>If you claim that the Bible has been changed, then you are violating Suras 
>6:115, 10:64, 41:43, and others. 

>4:171 is just one example of the contradictions between the Quran and the
>Bible. I am sure you are aware of several others.

   As you yourself quoted from Koran above, God revealed Torat, Injil and
Koran. Our interpretation of revelation is that God passed those books
(through some angel, Gabriel) to those prophets. Now who says that God passed
John's Gospel to anybody? Or Luke's Gospel? Or Nichola's (?) Gospel (which
was found early this century in excavations)? And probably many other Gospels
we do not know about? The answer is no one. We Muslims do not think that
Torat and Injil related in Koran is the Bible. You probably know that the
Gospels are narrations and interpretations of the Desciples of what they
lived with Jesus. The other chapters of the NT, were written by others and
sometimes the writer is unknown. Yet all those were passed through ages and
some of it was lost (as Nichola's (?) Gospel), and some was found and some
people made the selections that this belongs to the Bible and that does not.
All this was interpreted and translated by people. The OT passed the same
stages for a longer time, and from the NT, you know that the Jew priests were
tough against Jesus (and also the Jews in general gave Moses many problems).
Now how do you expect me to believe in the authenticity of what was passed
through centuries and centuries by such priests? How do you expect me to
believe in the authenticity of what was lost and (some of it) found later? How
do I know that those found documents have anything to do with the original
thing? How do I know that some valuable documents were not lost for ever?
And finally, how do I know that the translation is accurate, since the original
culture at that time died before now and people mostly were illiterate so
probably the words are interpreted and translated wrongly?!

   MY belief about Torat, which I concluded from a verse in Koran is that
Torat is what was written for Moses in the tablets. Koran said that was
written in the tablets explanations and admonitions of everything (not only
the ten commandments). Do you believe someone (Moses) was gone 40 days and
nights to return back with only ten sentences? Why? I could have carved them 
in less time! Or was Moses so stupid that it took God that long time to
teach him the commandments - God forbid.

   Isn't it also a disgrace that "if they wanted to write every word Jesus
said they would have needed all the trees and ink in the world" or something
like that and all what was received here of that was a few tens of papers 
written in four versions? Where is the rest? And to that claim above,
according to Muslims Jesus' mission was three years (the few visits to towns
he did, did not require longer anyway, and the priests would not have given
him longer time to counter them) if he was talking 24-hour/day continuous,
he could not have filled a large book. What are those talking about? Try
to calculate it!

   Our belief as Muslims is that the wording and phrasing of the holy books
was God's, not "God-inspired people"'s.
   And as someone once said, the Bible may be the truth, but not the whole
truth and nothing but the truth!

>I know that the Quran accepts the
>different religions, as shown by the following: (5:44-48)

>5:48. And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth,
>verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it,
>therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and
>do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth
>that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law
>and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you
>(all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave
>you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous
>deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you
>know that in which you differed;

>This clearly states that God has given us different religions and that we
>will be judged by whatever has been given to us. However, if the Quran
>attacks another religion and says that some of its teachings are wrong, then
>that is a contradiction in the Quran. It is like saying that God's word is
>wrong, because the Bible is also God's word, and it has not been changed.

   It is something like this, if a teacher gave you some homework, you will
be judged by that homework, later he gave you another homework, now you
ALSO will be judged by the new homework, if some people attended class after
the first homework or some died before the second homework they should not
be judged by what they did not live. It is the same here. You lived 2000 years
ago you were given Judaism and judged by it, if you lived up to Jesus' time
then you WERE to follow him and get judged by his teachings too, if you
survived to Muhammad's time, then you also WERE to follow Islam. In every
age you are to follow the religion in control of that time. God could have
made one religion since the time of Adam for all people and He could also
have made all people follow that religion (or whatever religion He wanted)
but He did not choose to do it that way. But that does not mean you are now
on your own to choose any religion or exempt from following the last prophet
to date (you heard of, of course, the old days when people did not know if
other cities existed!)

   What is wrong with that? God did not say the Bible is wrong, what the
Jews and Christians have is not necessarily authentic, God pointed to some
mistakes, and corruptions there.

>The Quran also suggests the following possibility:

>3:78. Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the
>Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of
>the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from
>Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah whilst they know.

>This means that the Christians are interpreting the Bible wrongly, and
>distorting it with their tongue. It does not say that the text of the Bible
>has been changed. In that case, I would ask any one to  read for themselves
>all those verses in the Bible that claim that Jesus is God, and tell me
>their real meaning. I am ready to discuss this issue further. I can provide
>you with a list of these verses. It is also available for anonymous ftp
>on z.eecs.umich.edu (141.212.99.7) in the file /pub/christ

   It also did not say that the text is original, did it? So the only logical
exit of this is that it is not. By the way, when someone corrupts the holy
words by his tongue would not he write it down, when he has to pass it to
someone else?

>-------------------------------------

>Question 2:

>In several places the Quran says that it fulfills the prophesies in the
>Bible. What prophesies are these? I found a couple of them in an English
>translation of the Quran, but they proved to be false, ie the interpretation
>of the verses in the Bible was wrong. Can someone point me to a book that
>gives this information?
>Regarding prophesies for Jesus in the Old Testament, there are at least 50,
>including place and time of birth etc.

   From Koran it shows that the prophesies were about Muhammad, his followers,
and his signs, etc. Give me the original Gospel which was revealed upon Jesus
and I will point them to you.

>------------------------------------

>Question 3:

>The Quran gives several special previleges to the prophet Muhammad, PBUH,
>which is contradictory to the claim that prophets are ordinary humans like
>us, and they are not to be glorified.

>For example, 
>i) No one can marry the Prophet's wives, which is a violation of the Islamic
>law, which allows widows to re-marry:

>33:53 " nor that you should marry his wives after him ever;
>surely  this is grievous in the sight of Allah."

>ii) the prophet Muhammad was allowed to have more than 4 wives, where as the
>generally accpted limit for others is 4.

>iii) 6:50 also gives some extra previleges to the Prophet:
> 6:50 "and a believing woman if she gave 
> herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry 
> her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers;"

   There is in some other verse (unfortunately I can not point it out, but I
think it is in sura Al-Ahzab (sura 33)), that prevented the Prophet from 
marrying women any more, not even after divorcing some of his wives, I think 
it was fair to prevent him from marrying any other women and his wives from 
marrying any other men. But of course he is and was a privileged Muslim and
a privileged prophet, but yet he was ordered to pray through half the night
or more (see sura Al-Muzzammil), we are not required to pray more that the
five times a day. He was not permitted to marry a nonmuslim Ghristian or Jew
we are! Marrying his widows may let someone to hurt them and such hurt the
Prophet and severely jepordize that guy's status as a Muslim, and also this
keeps the widows on there own as carriers of the Islamic torch to spread
his teaching under no control of anybody. In the first place permitting him
to marry them was a cause for spreading the religion by getting in-law with
more clans, or marrying a specially distinguished devout woman, but they
all were divorcees or widows except Aisha who was a virgin.

   By the way, how many women did Solomon or David marry? Is that ordinary?

   However, all that and more does not imply that he was not a mortal human
being, not God, not son of God and not even an angel. He deserves all respect
and love more than oneself, but no worship.

>On the other hand, Jesus, followed the Law given in the Taurat completely,
>he never changed any of it, and there were no exceptions or special
>previledges for him.

   The point is more the mortality than the laws. Why do not Christians
observe the Sabath, why do they eat pork, is not that in the law?

>---------------------------------------


>--
>Copyright KHUSHRO SHAHOOKAR,   $0.02
>khushro@eecs.umich.edu   Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor

**Nabeel