From: dah@tk5 (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Just War (long)
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:24:06 GMT
Organization: University of Oulu, Department of Electrical Engineering, Finland

In article <205-PCNews-124beta@ccs.covici.com> covici@ccs.covici.com writes:
>dah@tk5 (David Harwood @ University of Oulu, Department of Electrical Engineering, Finland) once wrote....
>>
>>(I do not konw of *any* Church Father, or early bishop, or Saint or
>>Theologian who claimed any revelation of God that would justify
>>warfare. 
>
>
>What would you say about Augustine's comments about just war?
>
\\\\\\\
Where does he claim any divine revelation which would justify warfare?

Do you understand what I mean? I am not talking about reasoning, or
tradition, although there is none supporting justification of warfare
in the NT writings or in early Christian culture. (No identifiable
Christians are buried among Roman soldiers, for example.)

No, I mean that God can reveal certain truths to us, or judge our
thoughts, or change our intentions - immediately - as Paul says in 
II Corinthians about the revelation of Jesus as Christ - by actually
illuminating our minds (or thoughts). "To see the light" is not some
mere figure of speech. Because there is such a thing as the glory or
light of God.

Now, if you can recognize what you are reading, in his confession,
Augutine gives an account of his vision of God's light, which reveals
Christ, at the time of his conversion. (Read the wonderful conclusion 
of Dante's Divine Comedy (final verses of The Paradise) - actually 
about Dante's own vision of Christ.)

There is a very great difference between theological and moral
reasoning and speculation and immediate encounter with God. Paul
says, "Now we see darkly as in an enigma, but then we shall see face
to face."

Aquinas was a great Christian theologian, but before he died, he
confessed that compared to what he had seen of God, all that he had
written was as dross.

What I am telling you is not new, and is well-known in Catholic
tradition. You refer to Augustine, who wrote about justification
of warfare. But Augustine himself wrote about what I am telling you.
He said that God reveals truths to us (or to the apostles and saints)
by illuminating our minds with a divine light, so that we are made to
understand what is true. (You have heard of "illuminated" manuscripts-
well, in modern technological terms, I suppose God  uses a "highlighting"
marker ;-) This was a "theory" of Augustine's.

But apostles and saints and Church Fathers are not infallible. Peter
was very fallible even as he accompanied Jesus. Also Peter was rebuked
by Paul later. And Paul makes clear distinction in his own writings
between what he knew from tradition, what he "believed" was God's 
intention, and what God immediately revealed to him.

I suggest to you that Augustine has better reason to propose a theory
of divine illumination, based on his own experience, than he does to
infer a theory of justification of warfare, from the Gospel.

Again, where does Augustine say that God has revealed immediately 
to him that warfare may be justified? Or is this his fallibly reasoned
opinion? Augustine is not less fallible than Peter, even if he is an apostle,
a witness to the revelation of Christ. 

Anyway, Augustine is not Christ. And again - are you to say here - 
that Jesus would justify killing others in warfare, His enemies or our own?
Would Jesus kill anyone?

It is very strange what Jesus said to his disciples:

"Who do you say I am?"

May Christ bring peace to our hearts,
David
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