From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies are racist (AND DANGEROUS)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:31:49 GMT

In <1992Nov15.081218.392@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

[Makowsky]
># >	But affirmative action IS racist.

[Skoll]
># Not by my definition, which I posted earlier.  I can repost it if you
># wish.

[Makowsky]
>	I remember your defintion.  However, even by your definition, it
>is still racist.

You remember incorrectly.  Let me dig up my definition...

>Let me define "racism" - the discrimination against people based
>on their race, religion, or cultural identity.

>Let me define "discrimination" - the differing treatment of people
>in areas of political rights, housing, and freedom of movement.

I fail to see how the Law of Return treats Israeli citizens differently
in the areas I mentioned.  It treats non-citizens differently, for sure;
but virtually every country in the world has immigration laws which treat
potential immigrants differently based on a variety of factors.

># >So if that is your comparison,
># >Israel's law of return is racist.  By the way.  Lets say Israel did
># >not have a law of return.  What would you have said if Rabbi Meir
># >Kahane (HY"D), when he was in the Knesset, proposed one?
> 
># This is entirely hypothetical, and thus meaningless.

>	It may be hypothetical but it definitely is not meaningless.  In fact,
>it is one of the few items of discussion in this thread with any real
>"meat" to it.

># However, I'll
># play along:  If Kahane had proposed the law, I would have supported it.
># As I said in another previous posting, I do not care who says or
># does something; I care only about what is being said or done.  Just
># because Kahane was racist doesn't mean that he lacked, from his
># viewpoint, a sense of ahavat Yisrael, or that all of his ideas were
># bad.

>	I am having trouble believing you here.  Are you honestly telling
>me that if he proposed that law, which discriminates against Arabs and
>favors Jews, you would support it?

The Law of Return discriminates against non-citizens of Israel, not against
Israeli citizens.  That's the difference.

[...]

># >	One of the late Rabbi's arguments is that Israel cannot survive as
># >a democratic state (for one thing, if you let all of the Arabs vote,
># >eventually they will run the country).  For whatever reason, it seems
># >to me that whenever democracy clashes with Judaism, youbelieve Israel
># >should reject Judaism.  Am I correct?

># You are offering an either-or choice which I don't have to make.  I,
># and most others, believe it is perfectly possible to have a democratic
># Israel which still protects and serves Jews throughout the world.

>	Oh really?  What do you do about the demographic situation which
>will give Arabs increasing clout and one day total control?

Well, what about it?  Either they are citizens or they aren't.  The only
solution to this is to find ways to make peace with the Arabs so that
as Jewish state in the Middle East becomes an acceptable part of reality,
rather than something to destroy.  This is clearly the best hope for the
long-term survival of Israel.

># However, to answer your question, I could not support a non-democratic
># Israel, especiallly one run on the basis of religious law.

>	With or without religious law, does that mean you would rather see
>the Jewish state of Israel be no more if by allowing full democratic
>rights the Arabs could vote it out of existence?

No.  A democracy is not simply the "rule of the majority."  It also implies
protection of minority rights, and, as such, Israel could not be "voted
out of existence."

># Not at all.  How a person picks a marriage partner is his or her
># own business.  If, however, they denied people employment, or
># tried evicting them from their homes, then they would be racist.

>	Even if they use the same criterion for denying people employment
>or evicting them from their homes that they do for a marriage partner?
>Are you claiming the criterion can be the same but one be racist and
>the other not?

Of course.  The picking of a marriage partner is an entirely personal
choice.  However, denying people employment imposes your values on
others.  It also creates social problems, hatred and mistrust.  If you
cannot undestand that it is actions which are racist, not (only)
motives, then we can't continue this thread.

[...]
># Again, that's hypothetical.  Judaism does not call for government
># coersion in such instances.

>	Do you actually believe that Jewish law does not call for such
>coersion in a Jewish state?

Israel is not a Jewish state in the sense that Jewish law applies there.
So whether or not Jewish law calls for government interference in private
matters is irrelevant as far as the State of Israel is concerned.

># In fact, it is a long-established principle
># of Judaism to follow the laws of the secular government except when
># those laws would cause transgression of Jewish laws.

>	But this is a transgression of Jewish laws?

There is no secular law which says that Jews MUST intermarry.  So, there is
no conflict between the secular law of Israel and Jewish law in that area.

Again, Israel does not have the power nor the mandate to enforce Jewish
law on a largely non-religious population.

># If you have
># any Jewish sources for government coercion, please cite them.

>	Do you really believe ther are none?

Give me ONE!  You state that there are some, so name them!  Stop beating
around the bush.

># Judaism is entirely legitimate.  I have grave doubts about Kahane's
># interpretation of it.

>	Fine.  You have just demonstrated your weakness in interpreting
>it.

Have I?  I've given sources and state precedences.  You have yet to name
one Jewish source for your viewpoints.  We'll let the readers of scj
decide whose interpretation is weaker.

># You're talking nonsense again.  You keep repeating this "doomsday"
># scenario, without any evidence to back it up.

>	Oh really?  What about Demographics?  Is the world really about to
>fall head over heels in love with Jews and their state?

Not if they follow Kach, that's for sure.  I don't care if the world
falls in love with Jews or not.  What I care about is that Jews strive
for justice, without compromising our lives or security.  In my opinion,
Kach's policies are the epitome of injustice, as well as catastrophic
to the survival of Israel.

>	Why do you think Iran (and other Arab countries) are trying to get
>the bomb, among other things?

First of all, Iran is not an Arab country.  Iran, Iraq, and Syria are all
ruled by disgusting, oppressive dictatorships.  They would probably love
to see the destruction of Israel.  The way to fight them is through diplomacy
and by arming Israel to the teeth.  I see no problem with that.  On the
other hand, that does not imply that Israel should kick out Arabs, or refuse
any chance of peace with its neigbours.  It is possible to maintain a
strong position without being racist.

[...]
>	Ah, but Yugoslavia supports my point.  You have two (actually
>more) ethnic groups that for their own protection need to be seperated
>(which implies expuslions).

I guess you'd love South Africa, then.  What you are supporting is
Apartheid, in the true sense of the meaning. ("Apartness.")  It just
doesn't work - one group inevitably ends up dominating the others, and
perpetual misery is the result.

>We have seen other examples of this.
>This does not mean that these actions (of expulsion) are just.  It
>means that the consequences of not doing them are even less just.

I fail to see how the genocide of Bosnian Muslims is "more just" than
any other possible consequences.

[Rest of boring, stupid exchange deleted.]

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________