HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elwin@gamma.phys.clemson.edu (Lawrence E. Brown)
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Reply-To: elwin@gamma.phys.clemson.edu (Lawrence E. Brown)
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:23:32 GMT


In article <6ftn=da.xtifr@netcom.com>, xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:
In <1Q9PBD82@cc.swarthmore.edu> jhildeb1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) writes:

>brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>> 
>> And she is right, Barrayar is her best work to date.

>	I would argue that that isn't saying all that much. The Vor Game was
>a lightweight, minor, and generally forgettable read. I was entertained
>for the two hours it took me to read it, but there was absolutely nothing
>memorable about it. It was just the same old standard space opera plot
>reworked yet again.

-Sheesh!  Y'all would think that these people think that writing
-"standards" with grace and skill was easy or sumpin'.  Lemme clue you
-in:  it isn't.  There's a reason that Bujold was first recognised and
-awarded by her peers, not fen.  Her peers *know* how difficult it is to
-master the "simple" art of telling a simple story well.

-_The Vor Game_ may have been lightweight, but it was definitely not
-minor, and was only forgettable by people who prefer flashy stylistic
-"tricks" over fundamental writing skills.  There *is* plenty of bad
-space opera out there, so it's easy to dismiss *all* space opera as bad.
-Especially if you don't have enough savvy to distinguish the good from
-the bad.  Much easier to proclaim that only the new-wave-cyber-abstract-
-decadent-art-school-dropout writers "truly" deserve awards and
-recognition.  After all, if it was hard to read, but you managed to read
-it, *and* to figure out what the heck the author was *trying* to say,
-this must *prove* your intellectual superiority!  As Nero Wolfe would
-say, "pfui!"  :-)

Thank God!  At least this year I'm not going to be the lone
voice in this electronic wilderness praising the wit, subtlety
and charm of Bujold.  The depth and scope of emotion that build
up as you read the whole series is simply amazing.  She writes
with such a simplicity of style that it's damn near impossible
to decide why her books delight the reader (well this reader
anyway). Perhaps it's this very economy of stylistic means which
is the foundation of her effects.  Her other jaw-dropping skill
is the  grasp she has on her character's lives and thoughts and
world. All of the events grow organically from this rich soil.
Time after time a passage will provoke great amusement, but you
would be unable to explain the "joke" to anyone without giving
them fifteen minutes worth of background. It's like "you just
had to have been there, I guess". A style this unforced and
seemingly effortless is not common and it's nice to see that
she's better appreciated by the HUGO voters than by many of 
the posters here.  

And I LIKE new-wave-cyber-abstract--decadent-art-school-dropout writers.
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Date: 10 Sep 1992 21:04:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


No, I think "Gold" was a tribute win from the get-go. Even though
Asimov was still alive when it was nominated, he was also a very
sick man. Before the nominations he had stated several times that
due to his medications, he couldn't write anymore. The fen saw
the writing on the wall, and know this was the Good Doctor's
last hurrah. As to why that particular story, it was published
in Analog as a 50th anniversry tribute for the first printing
of "Nightfall". 
At least "Gold" was free from the black cynicism of Asimov's
other final writings. "Robot Dreams", his last F&SF science
essay, even the George & Azazel in the cuurent issue of Asimov's
SF testify to a bitter, hopeless view of humanity. Quite sad.
Mark Stackpole     pacnet@rocky.claremont.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ss1@kepler.unh.edu (The Rink)
Subject: Re: Upcoming Books till June (small SPOILER for Kay readers)
Organization: Turkey Hall
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:09:49 GMT

>Kay, Guy Gavriel, A Song for Arbonne, Random House/Crown HC, Jan
>	Kay's new book takes place in a Europe in which Christianity
>	never took hold, and the classical past was lost.


Question:  How does Kay handle this lack of Christianity?  What kind of
statement is he making about it?
-- 
##############################  Swan  ##############################
## Just my luck.  I buy a suit with two pairs of pants, and I end ##
## up getting shot in the arm.      -- Art Carney, "Izzy and Moe" ##
####################################################################
## ss1@kepler.unh.edu       rink@unh.edu        ss1@bofur.unh.edu ##
####################################################################
## AAH!  The fuel light is on!  We're running out of fuel!  We'll ##
## all die!!  Oh wait, that's the intercom light. -- The Far Side ##
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft question
Reply-To: aaron@space.ualberta.ca
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:39:47 GMT

Regarding "The King In Yellow"...I recall a story called "More Light" by
James Blish, in the anthology Alchemy & Academe, as I recall, which described
someone reading a play called The King In Yellow.  I haven't read the Chambers
work yet, so I can't comment on similarities...

--
---Alfvaen(Canadian SF Quasi-Activist)
"What have I done to piss the gods off?"  ---Terence Trent D'Arby
Current Album--Aztec Camera:Love
Current Read--John Updike:Rabbit, Run
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ojvind@goethe.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander)
Subject: Re: Bland Prejudice
Keywords: WOTF, Scientology
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:10:57 GMT

In article <920909.1548464271@resnais.postmodern.com> mcb@resnais.postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) writes:

>My understanding of the economics of WOTF is that sales revenues from
>WOTF books go toward the support of the WOTF contest, awards,
>publicity, etc.
   ...
>It is conceivable that Scientology money is flowing the other way,
>*into* WOTF,
   ...
>that WOTF and the Church of
>Scientology are completely separate both financially and editorially.
   ...
>But the idea that WOTF writers are somehow made a profit
>off of for Scientology does not seem likely.


Thanks for those words, Mike.  I can anly add the following:
During six days of workshopping with Algis and 3 days of
festivities/awards ceremony I only heard the Church of Scientology
being named twice:  (1) when one of the other winning authors
asked if there was any connection between WOTF and Scientology,
and  (2) when the TV reporter interviewed us.

L. Ron Hubbard's fame mainly derive from two things:  as a very prolific
writer and as the founder of the Church of Scientology.  From the money
accumulated through these activities he made a large donation to
the WOTF contest, a contest that has inspired and encouraged a lot
of writers, including myself, who might otherwise have quit writing
due to low self-confidence.  Objectively speaking, this was a philantropic
gift.



>Michael C. Berch  
>(Writers of the Future, Vol. 7, 1991)
   _
-- Ojvind Bernander
(Yet another WOTF winner)
From: willimsa@unix1.tcd.ie (Gavin Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Piers A. was Re: An unenviable position
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:46:08 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

(Mark-Jason Dominus) writes:
>(Aaron Humphrey) writes:
>    You know, under most circumstances I'd agree with you, but don't you
>think maybe the phenomenon has something to do with that Piers Anthony
>is trash-seping bilge monster who can't write?

The thing is,...... he *used* to be able to write!
I'm not talking about the xanth series, (after book 2 it went bad), or teh 
Incarnations of Immortality series, (after book 2 again), but rather the
REALLY old stuff, like, "Of Man and Manta".   
What I liked about his old stuff was the fascination with the publications
of the Scientific American.  For example, in the aforementioned OMAM,
he integrated a method of communication derived completely from the
idea of visible patterns of energy dots.
Likewise, the expostulation of the creation of the universe in the end of
Bearing an Hourglass was interesting also.

However, it seems his biological clock was ticking madly, as from then on
he only seemed to be concerned with tempting succubi, and other such
trash.  Ah, well, to paraphrase, O tempora, O scripti.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Reply-To: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 06:53:11 GMT

Paul Michael Agapow writes:

|> Glad to see i'm not the only one irritated by the Landis win. This is not
|> to say that Landis can't produce good work but, Oh Lord, "Walk in the Sun"
|> wasn't one of them. There must have been better contenders this year if
|> people insisted on "hard sf" - i could pick up Years Best and find at
|> least 3 in minutes.

   "Gene Wars" by Paul McAuley, "Living Will" by A. Jablokov, 
   "Pogrom" by J.P. Kelly, "FOAM" by Brian W. Aldiss, and even
   "Blood Sisters" and "The Moat" by G. Egan or "Skinner's Room"
   by William Gibson.

   Now not all are very `hard', and some may be short novellettes, 
   but all are straight sf and non is as flawed as "Walk in the Sun".

|> 
|> >Connie Willis was robbed.
|> 
|> Willis' story was amusing, but ground that she's covered before and
|> better (vis "At the Rialto"). Me? i think Kessel was robbed ...

   Hell, Kessel's was at least technically science fiction (hypothetical
   meeting of two historical figures), but Willis should have been _real_
   controversial, since the *subject* of her story was not science, 
   the way it was in "At the Rialto".  That she was using dinosaurs
   analogously(?) to the profs was obvious but hardly makes science
   fiction.  She could have used a med school department with fatal
   viruses instead of dino's; would it still be supposedly sf?
   
 - David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
From: merritt@provolone.bchem.washington.edu (Ethan A Merritt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Minority opion of Iain Banks (was: The Anthony Thread)
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:34:47 GMT
Reply-To: merritt@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington


In article <1992Sep15.173832.16896@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey) writes:
|> The main thing I noticed in the Anthony thread is that we're not exactly an
|> organized group.  Iain Banks, whose works I've heard mostly praised on this
		     ^^^^^^^^^^
|> group over the past few weeks, is totally unknown to most people, and
perhaps
|> disliked by some.  The opinion of Heinlein's works is far from unified.  The
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   Indeed.  I haven't bothered to post an opinion til now, but since you raise
the subject....
   After seeing several threads praising Iain Banks go past on my newsreader,
I eventualy went out and got a copy of Consider Phlebas.  In my humble
opinion, it was terrible.  In fact, it makes the short list of books I couldn't
really make it all the way through. The last 20% or so I just skimmed before
chucking it in the trash.  It would take a major effort by a real persuasive
advocate to get me to even consider opening another book by Banks.
   Were I to summarize my reaction in a mini-review it might go something
like this:

"Consider Phlebas - A smash'em-up romp through a poorly defined future
full of gratuitous violence, random planet-hopping, and no attempt to focus
on any one object or person long enough to get the reader involved."

I'm perfectly well aware that others have a different opinion (or maybe I've
just described their preferred genre :-), but maybe this will stand as a 
warning to others who were thinking about starting in on Banks based solely
on favorable net comments.

					Ethan A Merritt
From: mforget@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Michel Forget)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Upcoming Books till June (small SPOILER for Kay readers)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 05:53:51 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

ss1@kepler.unh.edu (The Rink) writes:

- >Kay, Guy Gavriel, A Song for Arbonne, Random House/Crown HC, Jan
- >     Kay's new book takes place in a Europe in which Christianity
- >     never took hold, and the classical past was lost.
-
-
- Question:  How does Kay handle this lack of Christianity?  What kind of
- statement is he making about it?
- --
- ##############################  Swan  ##############################
- ## Just my luck.  I buy a suit with two pairs of pants, and I end ##
- ## up getting shot in the arm.      -- Art Carney, "Izzy and Moe" ##
- ####################################################################
- ## ss1@kepler.unh.edu       rink@unh.edu        ss1@bofur.unh.edu ##
- ####################################################################
- ## AAH!  The fuel light is on!  We're running out of fuel!  We'll ##
- ## all die!!  Oh wait, that's the intercom light. -- The Far Side ##

I am just reading this book now, and I really do not see how the above
statement (marked by">") can be made.  The only things that are the same
between Kay's world and ours is the geography (the land is layed out much like
Europe) and the political climate (there are references to the city-states of
our Italy).  I think perhaps that the two countries (Arbonne and Gorhaut) might
be France and Germany, which might explain the rivalry between the two of them.
There is also reference to a country called Gotzland which might be Austria.

Aside from the geography and the political climate, though, everything else is
different.  The religion and social values to be sure.  There are two moons,
and magic is a reality (though limited).

[I am not a professor, so if I have said anything blatantly stupid, please bear
with me.  This is all IMHO.]

<<  ------------------------------------------  >>
<<        mforget@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca          >>
<<  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  >>
<<               Michel Forget                  >>
<<   The Key:  Spirit over mind over matter.    >>
<<  ------------------------------------------  >>
<<  *Author of ShadowTerm II for the Atari ST*  >>
<<  ------------------------------------------  >>
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:11968 rec.arts.books:16024
From: nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (john a nickles)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Joan Aiken
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:26:14 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <BuBLHJ.AJ9@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>Does anyone else like her Dido Twite books? 
>
>(Adventure -- ostensibly for young people -- set in an alternate world.
>
>Lenore Levine
>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu

Loved The Wolves of Wiloughby Chase. I will remember to my dying day 
the scene in the railway carrige when a wolf menaces our young heroine.

Ambivalent about the rest. Read Blackhearts in Battersea and Nightbirds
on Nantucket. But then I got older and drew away. I have been thinking
of going back and finishing the series. 

About that "alternative world":  It took me years to realize that the 
Hanoverians WERE the family on the throne in the 18th/19th cent. I
assumed her writings were historical (I also believed the Great
Brain series was biographical.. etc. etc.) I was very gullible as 
a child.

Have you read Joan Aiken's plays such as "Street" and "The Mooncusser's
Daughter?" Very mystical. But my favorite will always be "Arabella's
Raven"  about a little girl's pet raven who will eat anything.

Also heard "Wolves of Willoghby Chase" and a short story "Kiss Your
Hand to a Magpie" dramatized on the radio some ten years back on a program
called "Spider's Web". Anyone here heard of it?

John A. Nickles
Standard Disclaimer: Purdue has their opinions, I have mine
"A wolf got in and ate the conductor and a pig in the luggage van"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: daynem@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller)
Subject: Dreamer Fithp
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 20:22:36 GMT

Niven and Pournelle, in FOOTFALL, mention a Threat Team (the "Dreamer Fithp")
that's composed of several writers of SF that advise the federal gov't. in 
times of unusual crisis. I believe Niven makes reference to a similar group 
in one of his short stories (maybe in the LIMITS collection??).

Is there any evidence to suggest that such an organization may exist, either
actively or in a contingency-based set-up?

If so, who is (or should be) on it? I'd guess Niven, Pournelle, David Brin, 
Orson Scott Card, Asimov (were he still alive), Carl Sagan (maybe the only
true scientist of the group), Gregory Benford, Greg Bear, and a few others
(mostly "hard SF" writers, in all likelihood).

Anyone know anything they want to share?

     -Dayne Miller
        daynem@u.washington.edu
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:38:59 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Sep7.202236.29238@u.washington.edu>, daynem@byron (Dayne Miller) writes:
>Niven and Pournelle, in FOOTFALL, mention a Threat Team (the "Dreamer Fithp")
>that's composed of several writers of SF that advise the federal gov't. in 
>times of unusual crisis. I believe Niven makes reference to a similar group 
>in one of his short stories (maybe in the LIMITS collection??).
>
>Is there any evidence to suggest that such an organization may exist, either
>actively or in a contingency-based set-up?

IMHO, this was one of the lamest parts of FOOTFALL, because it's basically
self-indulgant aggrandizement to suppose that the only ones that can deal
with the alien-invaders scenario are SF writers.  I guess `SF saves the world'
is a popular idea with these folks, since they saw fit to flesh it out into
a novel-length story (_Fallen Angels_).

>Anyone know anything they want to share?

Apart from their dubious (at best) qualities to think fast in an unusual
situation, SF authors aren't exactly known for keeping new ideas secret,
which would probably be a strong requisite for any such group.  There could
very well "Dreamer Fithps" out there, but I can't imagine that they have or
would want authors on them, SF or otherwise.

-- 
You unlock this door with the key of imagination.  Beyond it is another
dimension: a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind.
You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas.
You've just crossed over into... the Twilight Zone.
From: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: All the Weyrs of Pern
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:07:09 GMT
Reply-To: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <7blns5b.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>As weak an understanding of science as McCaffrey's own is also an
>advantage. [...]
>Her computers, for example,
>are either artificial superintelligences or pc's running DOS.

  I think it was decided on alt.fan.pern that the AIVAS was a VMS
machine...not even DOS requires you to explicitly say "RUN".

  This explains a lot about the AIVAS, of course.  :-)

Jonathan Lennox
jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.bio,soc.culture.british
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:56:36 GMT

In article <NICKH.92Sep11112716@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.134212.19357@cs.ruu.nl> rkunenbo@cs.ruu.nl (Ronald Kunenborg) writes:
>
>[lots of stuff about Burt, Lysenko, Eysenck, etc. etc.]
>
>   The political conclusions drawn from this varied between denying
>   access to Jews to the USA in the 30's, to forced sterilization of
>   `social deviants' (i.e. the poor).  Even now, in Great-Brittain,
>   Burts research is being used as an excuse to exclude 11-year olds
>   from any further education.
>
>News to me, squire. All Britons get education to the age of 16. What
>on Earth are you talking about?
>
>[... much more deleted ...]
>
>Nick

Presumably Ronald means the use of "IQ-based" tests in the "11 Plus" exam, or
whatever it's called these days. It used to be the case that you flunked that,
you were shipped off to a "secondary modern," and you were *history* with
respect to higher (post 16-years-old) education. 

Bill (an ex-comprehensive student) 

+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
From: mvp@hsv3.lsil.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: HUGO Awards?
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:28:25 GMT
Organization: LSI Logic/Headland Technology

In article <1992Sep14.025551.17446@latcs1.lat.oz.au> agapow@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Paul Michael Agapow) writes:
>The rejection of John Kessel's "Buffalo" i found astounding. Perhaps as
>the son of a migrant Polack, and as one weaned on HG Wells, the icons of
>the story were much more powerful to me.

There were a lot of things to like about "Buffalo".  Unfortunately, for
me, at least, the story was ruined by the constant obtrusive authorial
asides about how none of this really happened, it is just suppose, my
father never really met H. G. Wells, etc., etc., etc.
-- 
Mike Van Pelt       |"Dreams of flight are universal among space-faring races.
LSI Logic/Headland  | Indeed, such dreams may form much of the motivation for 
mvp@hsv3.lsil.com   | becoming space-faring."   --  T'chaih Hrinach
sun!indetech!hsv3!mvp
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Minority opion of Iain Banks (was: The Anthony Thread)
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:51:35 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep15.213447.5883@u.washington.edu> merritt@u.washington.edu writes:
>
>"Consider Phlebas - A smash'em-up romp through a poorly defined future
>full of gratuitous violence, random planet-hopping, and no attempt to focus
>on any one object or person long enough to get the reader involved."

Aye.  But a well-written one.  To me, this absolves all else.

And I take issue with "poorly-defined"; this is true, but a compliment.
Any interesting universe is poorly-defined.

c
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written