HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 19:30:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Nov13.234122.7421@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>
>The man is idolized as a free spirit.  In an increasingly crowded world
>where open space and "true freedom" are become a premium, Abbey represents
>an ideal from an earlier time.  He represents a free will and choice in
>a world full of "Grand Unified Theories."  Wayne could easily say more;

Who could resist an invitation like that?

I never read Abbey until a rec.backcountry reader once accused me
of copying him.  On that basis, I decided he must be worth reading,
and indeed I enjoyed Desert Solitaire immensely.  It was a great
comfort and joy to discover a comrad in social and mental "illness."
Christian sentiments asside, the loss of a snake is a tragedy.  The
loss of a human is insignificant, or possibly a blessing.  (This all
assumes that neither the snake nor the human are personal friends.)
There is nothing humane about crowding and squalor.

After a stint in the wilderness, I once sat in a Glenwood Springs
Kentucky Fried Chicken.  The people coming and going were like unwanted
conquerors or oppressors who didn't belong, like me, there only to rape
and steal what suits their immediate purposes, oblivious, as all
oppressors, to the welfare of the oppressed.  The land sat silent.

We tend to marvel at the Japanese.  Most Japanese do not like their life
style.  Look to Tokyo to see where we're headed.  When your family
of four lives in a 300 square foot apartment, and comutes two hours one
way to work, perhaps you're values will shift.  Probably not, though;
We tend to accept what's in front of us as good and proper.  Abbey will
be a decaying voice from a past long forgetten.  Or will he?

I read in the Denver Post this morning that Denver, which covered
less than a hundred square miles in the '60s, now covers five hundred
square miles.  Similar statistics were given for Colorado Springs,
Pueblo, Fort Collins, etc.
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jag9931@summa.tamu.edu (GLENNON, JOHN ALAN)
Subject: Re: long-term cave exploration- waste disposal?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:16:00 GMT

   All waste from human activity in National Park Service caves
must be packed out.  This includes all trips.  Bottles are used 
to carry out urine, and the classis "cave-burrito" for taking 
out solid waste.  There are no designated areas in any National
Park Service backcountry cave (including Lechuguilla, Jewel,
Wind, or 'wild' sections of Carlsbad) that allow for the dumping
of human waste.  I believe this policy is described in the National
Park Service Resource Management Policy Guide (Section 3 describes
cave resource management).

                                             Alan Glennon    
                                             RM intern JECA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eacj@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Julian Vrieslander)
Subject: Cat mistakes sleeping bag for litterbox
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:57:11 GMT

I had my sleeping bag in storage, stretched out on the floor of a closet.
Imagine my surprise when I found that my girlfriend's cat has been pissing
in it for the past several weeks.
 
This is a decent quality light-weight bag (North Face), made of ripstop
nylon and goosedown.  The bag was really soaked.  Is this likely to be
salvageable?  I remember reading that not all dry cleaners are well
equipped to do a decent job on lightweight down-filled gear.  What should
I ask for?
 
The obvious related question (what should I do to the cat?) will be posted to
alt.misbehaving-pets.revenge.
-- 
Julian Vrieslander 
Neurobiology & Behavior, Mudd Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853    
INTERNET: eacj@theory.tc.cornell.edu     BITNET: eacj@crnlthry
UUCP: ..cornell!batcomputer!eacj
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: karl@thuja.gsfc.nasa.gov (Karl A. Anderson)
Subject: Re: Sanctimonious-JB bashing (was Re: Abbey bashing).  
Organization: NASA/GSFC Laboratory for Terrestrial Physics
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:27:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.131718.13249@brtph560.bnr.ca>, JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com> writes:
|> In article <1992Nov17.232921.16325@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> Karl A.
|> Anderson, karl@thuja.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
|> >long discussion on birth ethics deleted.............
|> 
|> Careful, JB's about to get sanctimonious again..........
|> 

Careful, Karl's about to get defensive again.  My post was only to ask whether
anyone has authoritative immigration statistics.  The long discussion on birth
ethics was somebody else's.  I tried to send JB mail, but it bounced (I think he
planned it that way), so I'm following-up instead.

-- 
Karl A. Anderson		| Internet: karl@thuja.gsfc.nasa.gov
NASA/GSFC code 920.2 (HSTX)	| voice: (301) 286-3815
Greenbelt, MD 20771		| #include "std_disclaimer"
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
From: lee@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Lee Faa)
Subject: East of Salt Lake City
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:20:11 GMT

It looks like I'll be spending a week around Salt Lake City
next July.  Can anyone give me some info on some day hikes
in the mountains east of SLC?

Thanks,
Lee Faa
NCR MCPD-Columbia

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Subject: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:37:13 GMT

[sorry for any typos]

New York Times  

Anchorage, Alaska ---

Trying to tip the balance of nature in favor of the moose and caribous,
wildlife officials have decided to start shooting wolves from airplanes 
over a huge portion of the Alaska wilderness.

By reducing the number of wolves that prey on big-game animals, 
Alaska wildlife officials hope to produce a bounty for hunters 
and tourists.

'A wildlife spectacle'

"We feel we are going to create a wildlife spectacle
on a par with the major migrations in East Africa,"
said David Kelleyhouse, director of the Division of
Wildlife Conservation.  "Mom and pop from Syracuse can
come up here and see something that they can't see anywhere 
else on Earth."  

With votes this week, the ALaska Board of Game set in motion
a major reordering of the predatory chain in a habitat 
often referred to as the American Serengeti.

The move promises to affect the populations of 
the nation's biggest herds of moose, dall sheep,
caribous, wolves and grizzly bears into the next century.

To inflate Alaska's populations of moose and caribous,
which already number well over a million, 
the state plans to kill hundreds of wolves each year.
Wildlife experts estimate that the wolves, 
the primary predators of Alaska's big-game animals, number
no more than 7,000 statewide.


Shot from planes

The plan calls for the wolves to be shot by game officials from airplanes
or by private citizens who will be allowed to track them from the air,
then land and shoot them.

The plan enacted by the state game board is a five-year
program to shooting wolves in a 43,000-square-mile
area between Anchorage and Fairbanks, a section of birch
forests, glaciers and tundra that is home to more than
60,000 caribous, 30,000 moose, 2,000 grizzly bears and about 7000 wolves.

Since bears, as well as wolves, prey on the moose and caribous, 
the state will also try to eliminate more bears in some areas,
althought the exact number have not been determined.

Some biologist say the state has entered a dangerous phase
of "playing God," that will so upset the natural cycles that it
will actually produce fewer animals.

A number of wildlife biologests say that killing 
hundreds of Alaska wolves each year would not guarantee a 
population explosion of large animals.  In some areas,
80 percent of the wolves, which run in packs of eight to 30
animals, would be killed.

'Bad biology'

"This decision is bad biology all around, 
almost insulting from a scientific standpoint,"
said Dr. Gordon Haber, a wildlife scientist 
who has been studying wolves in Alaska for 27 years.
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 20 Nov 1992 18:14:38 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

In article 122440209@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM, ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein) writes:
> Here's another urge to take the Red Cross CPR and first aid course.  I
> did it 3.5 years ago and just renewed it.  Both times most attendees
> were there because they "had to be" for a job or occupation.  Which is a
> real shame because the course is *great*.  Not only do you learn
> specific skills; you also learn a feeling of preparedness that (I hope)
> will keep you calm and effective in an emergency.


While I certainly wouldn't EVER want to sound like I was discouraging
anyone from taking Red Cross CPR and first aid, I would like to express
my opinion that no level of American Red Cross first aid training is 
worth very much in the backcountry.

All Red Cross training revolves around response by emergency medical services.

Greg
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Alimeter Watches (Update)
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:16:09 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <7652@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com writes:
>In article <10769@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:

>>it measures temperature...

>Seems the temperature would always read 98.6...

Nope.  That is the problem, in spite of being attached to your wrist
it does track the air temperature reasonably well.  This means the
perssure cell of the altimeter also tracks the air temperature,
resulting in inaccurate altitude readings.
From: sanjaym@camus.sni-usa.com (Sanjay Manandhar)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:06:16 GMT
Reply-To: sanjaym@camus.sni-usa.com (Sanjay Manandhar)
Distribution: na
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf Information Systems, Inc. Cambridge, MA

Read "Population Explosion" by the Eherlichs.

Rate of population growth in the US is lower than in many
less-industrialized nations, but the population growth in the
industrialized nations is more detrimental to the entire planet (due to
the living habits).

sanjay

***************************************************************************
* 	Sanjay Manandhar           Internet: sanjaym@sni-usa.com 	* 
* 	SIEMENS-NIXDORF              USENET: ...!uunet!nixbur!sanjaym	* 
* 	4 Cambridge Center               Ph: [usa](617)349-5047		*  
* 	Cambridge, MA   02142 		FAX: [usa](617)864-3176		*
From: bg213@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark A. Stoffan)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: uncontrolable tongues!!
Date: 18 Nov 1992 16:37:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bg213@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark A. Stoffan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, v100mfha@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (jen) says:

>HELP!!
>
>DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SOLUTIONS ON HOW TO KEEP THE TONGUES OF MY BOOTS IN THE 
>CENTER, INSTEAD OF SLIPPING OFF TO THE SIDE.  THERE ISN'T A HOLE IN THE TONGUE
>TO PUT THE LACES THROUGH.  
>
>JEN
>
Once the leather is broken in, nothing short of stitching it in place
will stop the tongues from drifting. I made this mistake with a pair of
new boots once, custom Limmers at that. When it was time to have them
re-soled, I had new tongues put in, too. When I got my second pair, I
checked the tongues frequently until the boots were well broken in.

-- 
Mark Stoffan		mark@BTSgateP.caps.maine.edu
Portland, Maine		mstoffan@nlbbs.UUCP

Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9109 sci.environment:12916 talk.environment:4710 alt.wolves:241
From: tilley@fsh.UUCP (Tom Tilley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Date: 21 Nov 92 01:18:06 GMT
Reply-To: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com
Followup-To: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale

In article <1992Nov20.193758.7601@meteor.wisc.edu> tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.183713.25800@news.arc.nasa.gov> watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:
>
>>New York Times  
>>
>>"This decision is bad biology all around, 
>>almost insulting from a scientific standpoint,"
>>said Dr. Gordon Haber, a wildlife scientist 
>>who has been studying wolves in Alaska for 27 years.
>
>Mr. Watson only quotes one side of the story. Please note that it is the side
>that I agree with, but doesn't really represent the Times' angle on it,  ...

I read the story in the San Jose Mercury News (I posted a summary from memory
to r.b before John's post got here).  When I read John's post, the article
sounded _exactly_ like what I saw in the paper with no additions or
subtractions.  I suspect a journalist somewhere did the editing.

>One quotation that I found particularly interesting was the quote from the
>director of a hunter's advocacy group, Randy Smith:
>
>`"These animals are being managed for the benefit of man, and that's the way
>it should be," Mr. Smith said.'

The article that appeared in the SJMN mentioned hunting as an aside (it did
not have this quote).  I suspected the "hunting" part had more to do with
this proposal than the silly "wildlife tours for mom and pop" that the
article mentioned.  Of course, this doesn't change the stupidity of the
proposal at all (I agree about man's interest in AK being to preserve real
wilderness).

Tom.
#--------------------------------------------------#
| Tom Tilley                                       |
| Internet : tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com   |
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
From: mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael S. Ratliff)
Subject: Guide info
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Keywords: guide
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:54:56 GMT


Howdy All,

I am looking for information on how to become a guide.  What does it take for
one to call oneself a guide?  Are there any books that would help?  How does
one become certified without spending a gargantuan amount of cash?  Does one
only get certified for guiding in one geographical area?  etc..


Thanks 

Michael S. Ratliff

e-mail  mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu
-- 
********  Michael S. Ratliff -- mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu  *********

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 19:37:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.183713.25800@news.arc.nasa.gov> watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:

>New York Times  
>
>"This decision is bad biology all around, 
>almost insulting from a scientific standpoint,"
>said Dr. Gordon Haber, a wildlife scientist 
>who has been studying wolves in Alaska for 27 years.

Mr. Watson only quotes one side of the story. Please note that it is the side
that I agree with, but doesn't really represent the Times' angle on it, 
which is, in the journalistic tradition, carefully neutral. (The headline
writer wasn't so careful, btw)

One quotation that I found particularly interesting was the quote from the
director of a hunter's advocacy group, Randy Smith:

`"These animals are being managed for the benefit of man, and that's the way
it should be," Mr. Smith said.'

I bring this up in reference to the anthropo/eco centric question which still
puzzles me, since it seems to me that the interests of man and of nature are
nearly coincident. I presume that people who are fond of making the 
distinction would be happy to seize on Mr. Smith's attitude as a perfect
example of the sort of anthropocentrism they decry.

To me though, this isn't anthropocentric at all. It seems to me that 
humanity's interest is in preserving the genuine wilderness of Alaska.
This "for the benefit of man" argument as presented above is complete hooey.
The proposed measure is only for the benefit of a few people who like
to shoot game animals, and want the state to tilt the odds in their favor.

In addition to the stupidity of such large scale human intervention in the
wildlife population given the current state of knowledge and the current
experience base, I have to wonder about "sportsmen" who want to make the
sport easier. This reminds me of the practice so common around here of    
hatching vast quantities of fish in fish farms and then tossing them into
lakes for people to catch. Not only is this another "market distortion"
in the ecological balance, but it also strikes me as damned silly. Why not
just give the fish away, rather than throwing them in the lake to be caught 
again? Then people who wanted to go out in a rowboat and dangle a string in
the water could do so to their heart's content without worrying about hooks
and bait and so on (not to mention mercury and dioxin, sigh...).

Similarly, Alaska could save the money it spends on shoting wolves from
airplanes and just start a couple of caribou ranches and give away the
meat to tourists. It seems to me to be more efficient and safer as well as 
having much less adverse impact. Then folks could shoot the wildlife with
cameras, and go home happy and well fed.

mt
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:13:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

In article <1992Nov20.223233.6903@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> dsc@gemini.tmc.edu (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) writes:
>
>The amount of timber sold from the National Forests is determined by Congress,
>not by the USFS.  


Not quite so. Congress decides the amount of timber sold based upon
USFS assessments of what is ``harvestable.'' 
The harvestable amount is grossly overinflated to please logging-backed
congressmen and the logging industry, and to 
prepetuate the Forest Service bureaucracy (which
is heavily logging-dependent).

Example: In the northwest, many recently replanted clearcuts are counted as
mature, harvestable forests by the USFS.  Critics call these the
``phantom forests.''

Now, instead of x million acres of harvestable forest, all of a sudden 
Congress sees XX million acres!  So, let's cut more logs!!

Neat way to cook the books, huh?


Mike 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: daf@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tony Flanders)
Subject: Re: Warm clothing while hiking
Organization: Intermetrics Inc, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:18:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.191823.1274@ole.cdac.com> ssave@ole.cdac.com (The Devil Reincarnate) writes:

>  I need some recommendations for clothing while hiking in cool/cold/chilly 
> weather.  I find that I warm up quite a bit soon after I start walking and
> it becomes uncomfortable to keep the same clothes on. On the other hand, the
> moment I stop for a break, within 10 min or so, I get chilled to the bone!

Yes, that`s right.  If you want to do anything active in cold weather,
including hiking, you'd better get used to it.  The difference between
clothes that will keep you comfortable hiking uphill and sitting still
is truly dramatic.  If I'm not sweating when I am hiking uphill in a long-
sleeved polypro shirt, I figure I will need a down jacket when I am stopped.
This is *not* an exaggeration.

All you can do is accept it.  One technique is not to take long stops; just
start moving again when you get cold.  The other technique is to keep extra
clothing handy to put on when you stop.  In practice, you may need to do
both.  No mere clothing adjustment, like opening or closing zippers, comes
close to being enough.

By the same token, you shouldn't need bulky clothing when you are hiking.
If you are comfortable when you start, you are wearing much too much.  A
polypro shirt under a shell is plenty for 32F and a moderate wind.

Cold rain makes everything hard, because you have to take your shell off
to put on extra clothing.  Short stops are very popular among people who
do lots of hiking in cold rain.

    - Tony Flanders
	daf@inmet.camb.inmet.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: craig@phenix.cc.uregina.ca (Craig Knelsen)
Subject: Re: Grand Canyon
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 07:36:11 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: craig@phenix.cc.uregina.ca (Craig Knelsen)
Organization: Does it matter?
Keywords: Grand Canyon, accomodations

In article <1ej7nmINN3p4@agate.berkeley.edu> elwood@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (Elisha Polomski) writes:
>
>I may be going to visit the Canyon in January--
>anyone have any reccomendations for accomodations???
>I think it'll be too cold for camping(at least for me ;) )

Too cold? According to the info I have, average temp in the inner canyon
averages 14C (58F) during the day and 3C (38F) at night from Dec. to Feb.
Doesn't sound too much worse than camping in late summer/fall in the Canadian
Rockies or Grand Teton NP. Perhaps dealing with the upper portions of the
trails being snow covered and icy (again according to the info) would be
a bigger challenge.

>I would be visiting the South Rim. Need something cheap.
>Any Bed and Breakfast places, youth hostels or other stuff
>nearby???

I don't know of any. I think the most inexpensive accomodations (besides
camping at Mathers -- which might be quite chilly) would be at Bright
Angel Lodge. As far as I know, the only accomodations on the south rim
are the lodges and campgrounds. You may be able to find something in
nearby Tusayan.
There is also Phantom Ranch at the bottom but I don't have any info on
cost. (If anyone knows offhand, let me know)

>Also, I heard it takes 2 days to hike down and back up 
>floor via Bright Angel trail. Is this true?? Or only
>true for domesticated hikers??? I 've hiked up and
>down 6000ft peaks in one day with time and energy to spare.

I have been from the south rim to Plateau Point and back up (19.6km/12.2mi)
in about 7 hours on a *hot* August day. This is a drop/gain of 940m/3100ft 
one way. The river is 25km/15.6mi return from the south rim via BAT which
should be doable in a long day hike although some may advise against this.
-- 

Craig Knelsen		craig@phenix.cc.uregina.ca
			Craig_Knelsen@f20.n140.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Started out as Abbey bashing.
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:07:23 GMT

In article <1e90ekINNnhk@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>,
 bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel) writes:
|>
|>At least Old Ed never wore Lycra!!Or Spandex!!

Whoa, as strange a concept as Bush the environmental Pres.

|>  I was reading The Fools Progress (hope the name is correct)
|>when I heard he went off the "mortal coil". 
|>  Here's to ya, Ed!

Hey, anyone who shoots noisy refridgerators can't be all bad!

So, I thought this was supposed to be an Abbey bashing thread,
do you anti-Abbey folks scare so easy?

Here's my two cents - they should have burned all his books except
the ones I own ... soon after discovering the Monkey Wrench Gang
about 13 years ago I made my first trip to S. Utah, I figure this
was probably not an isolated event.  Any guesses as to how many
people first checked out this country because of his writing?
What a terrible thing to do to those quiet, undisturbed places!
More specifically, the places that had no mining/cattle/damming
possibilities ... in other words, the places that would now be
better off if no one went there, that now smell of human urine
and have cairns ... 

--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|>>>>>>>Official Disclaimer <<<<<<<<<<<<
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|" Only the names here are fictitious.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  The story, unfortunately, is
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  absolutely true. " - Joseph Brodesky