HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: California Public Schools Funding: A Materplan for Failure
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:20:02 PST

In article <1992Nov19.224143.24364@Cadence.COM>, phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel) writes:
> In article <5649@bacon.IMSI.COM> jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes) writes:
>>This is news to me.  Prop 13 showed clearly that California taxpayers
>>would rather have lower property taxes than good schools.  I've seen
 
> This is absolute bullshit.  Prop. 13 showed clearly that people thought
> property taxes were going through the roof and needed to be contained.
 
I'd say that the most accurate description of voter response to
prop 13 was that people saw property taxes spiralling out of
control and bit at the first idea that soudned good without fully
considering the consequences of prop 13's funding of various
pieces of government, schools included. The Prop 13 tax rates
effectively penalize new home buyers and give benefits to owners
of business and investment properties (which tend to change lands
less frequently). The 2/3 requirement for tax increases severely
cripples the ability of local government to acquire needed
funding. A lot of fat has been trimmed in the years since prop 13
but it hasn't prevented some waste from continuing and some truly
beneficial services from being cut. In short, I think that prop
13 was a less thhan optimal response to a real problem.

As an aside, the primary result of prop 13 has been to affect
_local_ funding so the results from it are far from uniform
across the state. Some local governments/special districts have
made cuts on citizen services while retaining waste, others have
virtually eliminated waste but still face budget shortfalls. The
alternative of state funding is a loss since the needs tend to be
in the cities and the rural legislators are not too happy to send
their constituents' tax dollars to the cities.

> There is no reason that school funding has to come from property taxes,
> and I personally don't think it should.

The main reason for school funding coming from property taxes is
because of the traditional degree of local control over use of
these funds. How would you choose to fund public schools?

-dh
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu
Subject: Re: California Public Schools Funding: A Materplan for Failure
Organization: Quixote Digital Typography
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:58:50 PST

In article <1ebmclINNcef@skat.usc.edu>, walker@skat.usc.edu (Michael D Walker) writes:
> In article <5649@bacon.IMSI.COM> jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes) writes:
>>This is news to me.  Prop 13 showed clearly that California taxpayers
>>would rather have lower property taxes than good schools.
 
> No.  They realized their money was being wasted on school bureaucrats,
> poor teachers, kids with bad parents, or to subsidize the rich with
> the UC system.

Well to blame the decline in California schools on Prop 13 is to
ignore the fact. There was a continuing decline in California's
educational quality before Prop 13 was passed. 13 did excelerate
the process, however. 

Given the existence of Prop 98, I'd say that the accurate
description of the situation is that California taxpayers don't
mind dedicating money to the schools just as long as it isn't
*their* money. Prop 13 had the long-lasting result of decreasing
local control of numerous institutions, schools being just one of
them. Very little of the property tax money (if any) has ever
gone to the UC system. Most of it went to road maintenance,
police and fire protection, schools and local protection. There
was a strong sense that there was waste in government which
helped propel 13 to passage, but the overwhelming justification 
was lower taxes. I don't think most voters really thought about
or fully understood the consequences of 13 being passed.
 
>>I've seen bumperstickers as long ago as 1980 that said "If you can
>> read this you probably didn't go to a California Public School" ...
 
> Yeah, and if your parent taught you to watch TV, instead of reading,
> you're gonna do great....  Schools vary.
 
> Thowing money at it hasn't worked.  What I'm hearing is that CA is
> spending more on schools now then in the past, but the standards keep
> dropping.

Well the dollar amount has increased, but it's not keeping pace
with growth in enrollment or inflation. Even without inflation
adjusting, per-student spending on the public school system has
declined dramatically since prop 13 and despite prop 98. When
schools have minimal administrative staff and no fewer than 30
kids in a classroom there's something wrong with the funding
situation. If you think that your local school district is
wasting money, take an afternoon off and talk to the person in
charge of business affairs. You should be able to get the state
budget numbers and the core budget. You may find that they're
spending money wisely, you may find that they are wasting money.
But until you take the time to find out the truth, you're just
blowing hot air.

-dh
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: markp@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Mark Panitz)
Subject: Re: Why buy anywhere else but FedCo?  (Medium/High-end video, at least
Organization: The Palmtree BBS - 310/453-8726 - Santa Monica, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:14:13 GMT

a lot of Fedco places are Jammed with customers, and not enough staff
thereby discurring some folks (ie me)
beside the neares fed co to me is too far to walk.
Newsgroups: ca.general
Subject: Re: Internet access to CA state legislation?
From: ivler@mdcbbs.com (J.M. Ivler    ivler@mdcbbs.com)
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:12:27 GMT
Organization: EDS Unigraphics, Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: loosli

In article <BsKqA8.B41@spock.dis.cccd.edu>, 
markb@spock.dis.cccd.edu (Mark Bixby) writes:
> Is there any Internet access (telnet/ftp) available to info regarding the
> California state legislature?  Such as pending legislation, signed legislation,
> government hearings, etc.  As a community college district we have a great
> interest in keeping informed as to what the clowns in Sacramento are up to.
> 

Mark,

The Internet is a major unknown in political circles. Not only do the 
politicians not want to post/publish information in public, if it weren't for 
special interest groups, most legislation would be done in such a way that you 
would never hear about it.

There is something you can do. GET INVOLVED. Contact you local "party" offices 
and find out who is planning on running. Talk to the candidates about the 
Internet and open communications. Get them involved in an open dialog with the 
people that they are supposed to represent.

J.M. Ivler
Candidate (Democrat) for the California 46th Congressional District - 1994
ivler@mdcbbs.com
From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: California Public Schools Funding: A Materplan for Failure
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:35:13 GMT

jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes) writes:
>This is news to me.  Prop 13 showed clearly that California taxpayers
>would rather have lower property taxes than good schools.  I've seen

We're spending more money per student now than we did then.  Throwing
more money at schools doesn't help at all when they spend it all on
expanding the administration.

>bumperstickers as long ago as 1980 that said "If you can read this you
>probably didn't go to a California Public School" ...

It's amazing how badly the government can screw anything up when it
puts what passes for its mind to improving it.
-- 
Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as soldiers are for finishing
it... You take diplomacy out of war, and the thing would fall flat in a week.
   -- Will Rogers
From: chris@surfcty.com (Chris Johnston)
Newsgroups: ca.test
Subject: Hello
Keywords: Hello
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:41:04 PST
Distribution: Hello
Organization: Surf City Software, Orange, Calfornia - DUDE!

Hello
Newsgroups: ca.test
From: schneide@scubed.com (Steve Schneider)
Subject: test
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:09:59 GMT



test posting from vulcan

-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
Stephen Schneider                 S-CUBED              3398 Carmel Mtn Rd.
schneide@scubed.com           (619) 587-7295           San Diego, CA 92121
Newsgroups: ca.test
From: schneide@scubed.com (Steve Schneider)
Subject: Re: test
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Laboratories
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:33:47 GMT


testing followup


-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
Stephen Schneider                 S-CUBED              3398 Carmel Mtn Rd.
schneide@scubed.com           (619) 587-7295           San Diego, CA 92121
From: julian@bongo.UUCP (Julian Macassey)
Newsgroups: ca.test
Subject: Re: test
Date: 16 Nov 92 04:25:12 GMT
Organization: The Hole in the Wall  Hollywood California U.S.A.

Just a test.

-- 
Julian Macassey, julian@bongo.info.com  N6ARE@WA6FWI.#SOCA.CA.USA.NA
742 1/2 North Hayworth Avenue Hollywood CA 90046-7142 voice (213) 653-4495
From: mhamon@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (Marvin Hamon)
Newsgroups: ca.test
Subject: Testing to see if this is getting off site.
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:11:04 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

Will this get off site? We will see.
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)
Subject: Re: A Strand of Bigotry
Date: 20 Nov 92 11:29:34 PST

In article <Bxz6p0.Kv4@fig.citib.com>, on 19 Nov 92 18:15:00 GMT,
glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:

>Since when was being fired or tossed out of your apartment
>simply because your affections were geared towards adults
>of your same gender a private action between *consenting*
>adults? 
>
Assuming that you and your employer have no contract that specifically
deals with the question as to length and conditions of employment, you
perform services for him and receive wages as long as you both mutually
agree to do so. This makes the condition of your employment a private
action between consenting adults. Just as he has no right to force you
to continue to work for him if you should choose to leave, so too do you
have no right to compel him to maintain you in a condition of employment
should he decide that he no longer desires your services.

The same considerations apply to the case of a leased apartment in the
absence of a lease which specifies the term of the agreement and the
conditions under which it may be terminated.

As long as no fraud has occurred in each of the cases above, the matters
are inherently private.

        =Jack=
---

Jack B. Newsbaum             You have rights antecedent to all earthly
Library Information Systems  governments; rights that cannot be
University Research Library  repealed or restrained by human law.
ecl4jn2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu               - John Adams
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: "Monsters Among Us", Frontlines, November 10, 1992, PBS
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:35:31 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <13248@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <102358@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
>> In article <13210@optilink.UUCP> walsh@optilink.UUCP (Mark Walsh) writes
>> to Steve Kellmeyer:
> # #Do we take this to mean that you believe that homosexuality
> # #should be illegal, or that child molestation shouldn't be?
> # #Even the most pathetic homophobes know that homosexuality
> # #"activity" is victimless.  Wake up, get a life, get informed!
> #                ^^^^^^^^^^
> # Try telling Clayton Cramer that homosexuality is victimless. 
> 
> Homosexuality is victimless.  Child molestation (which homosexuals
> do in very disproportionate numbers) is not.

Not according to the figures that have been posted to this newsgroup,
including your own.  Homosexuals are no more likely to molest children
than heterosexuals.  However, we've been through this in nauseating
detail in the past and I'm not going to resurrect the argument here.

> Quit misrepresenting me, you lying fool.  You and Paul 
> Bartholomew are among the best examples of how screwed-up
> and emotionally disturbed homosexuals are.

"Lying fool?"  "Screwed-up?"  "Emotionally disturbed?"  Hmm, I seem to
remember that this was the man who said that he didn't resort to ad
hominem attacks and oh-so-piously declared that he would not respond to
postings that included such attacks.

What's even funnier about this particular statement is that neither Brian
nor I are homosexual!  Brian has publicly stated that he is bisexual, and
I am heterosexual (as I've told Mr. Cramer fives times now).  I think I'm
going to have to add that line to my news signature.

Now, Mr. Cramer, I'd really appreciate it if you could give me some examples
of just what leads you to believe that I'm "screwed-up" and "emotionally
disturbed"?  Naturally, you do have evidence to support this claim, don't
you?  You don't?  Oh dear....

I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about these insults--I think
the readers of this newsgroup have quite enough information to decide
whether Mr. Cramer is correct.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: How Many Homosexuals?
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:29:24 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <13176@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <13122@optilink.UUCP>, walsh@optilink.UUCP (Mark Walsh) writes:
>> 
>> Talk about a skewed sample.  You are making the remarkable
>> assumption that the percentage of gays over 65 is the same
>> as the percentage of those under 65.  A smoking survey that
>> I recently read showed that gay men are far more likely to
>> smoke cigarettes than straight men.  This factor alone would
>> significantly alter the number of gay men who make it to 65.
>> There are too many other variables to list.
> 
> No surprise about the smoking.
> 
>     Halliday (1985) identifies migraine headaches, back problems,
>     stomach problems, infections (27 per cent of her sample
>     had hysterectomies because of infections), anorexia, obesity,
>     asthma (especially among male victims of oral sex), epilepsy,
>     multiple personality, addictions, severe depression, self-
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^
>     multilation, and increased acceptance of pain, as long-
>     term sequels.  She found that male victims tend to be more
>     aggressive or externalizing of their distress, while females
>     tend to be more internalizing and self-destructive.[Bagley
>     & King, 119; also see Everstine & Everstine, 387]

No surprise about your continued misuse of evidence.  Halliday's work was
about victims of child molestation, not homosexuals.  To apply it to homo-
sexuals is dishonest and a perversion of her work.  The conclusions are
*yours*, not hers, and are not supported by her research.  You have pre-
sented no concrete evidence on:

1) how many men who were molested as children become gay
2) of these, how many had other contributing factors
2) how many gay men were molested as children

Without these numbers, your claims, as usual, are unsupported by any evidence.

As an alternative explanation, may I suggest you research the issue of self-
esteem?  You will find that victims of low self-esteem are more likely to
engage in addictive behavior of one kind or another.  When you conduct further
research and find that, largely due to the attitudes of people like you,
homosexuals suffer from low self-esteem, you have a much simpler analysis
which does not require large amount of hand-waving to justify.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: "Monsters Among Us", Frontlines, November 10, 1992, PBS
Date: 19 Nov 92 09:47:49 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <13248@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> Quit misrepresenting me, you lying fool.  You and Paul 
> Bartholomew are among the best examples of how screwed-up
> and emotionally disturbed homosexuals are.

Oh, one more thing.  If we're the "best" examples of how screwed-up and
emotionally disturbed homosexuals are, then I'd say that we have a pretty
convincing case that homosexuals aren't screwed up at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew        |  Clayton Cramer:  "[Brian Kane] and Paul Bartholomew
                        |  are among the best examples of how screwed-up and
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov |  emotionally disturbed homosexuals are."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: ca.politics,soc.motss,talk.politics.misc
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Re: A Strand of Bigotry
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:47:34 GMT


In article <19921119133236ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
|> In article <BxxBB3.HKt@fig.citib.com>, on 18 Nov 1992 17:59:26 GMT,
|> glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:
|> 
|> >The laws I see getting passed these days that concern me
|> >are the ones that define me as a second class citizen without
|> >the same rights or protections as my heterosexual brother.
|> >I guess sodomy laws are the invention of liberals?
|> >
|> Nope. Liberals are more into inventing laws trying to limit what things
|> you should be allowed to eat or what vitamins and food supplements you
|> should be allowed to take.

You're evading discussing the point I was making.

No wonder.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Ad Hominem Attacks
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:16:56 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

Clayton Cramer writes:

>[yet another emotionally disturbed ad hominem attack deleted]

Don't you just love this?  Great choice of words here.  And I just love how
he uses an ad hominem attack himself in responding.

># And you're the one who is inconsistent.  You don't condemn any group but
># gays for seeking protection against discrimination.  And then whenever

>Because no other group but homosexuals is trying to legitimate
>child molestation.

And this one.  I've noticed that Mr. Cramer practices what is commonly known
as the "Big Lie" technique.  That's when you say something completely un-
supportable and outrageous that nobody could possibly believe.  But if you
repeat it often enough, people might gradually begin to accept it.

Now, Mr. Cramer, if you have any evidence at all that homosexuals are trying
to "legitimate" [sic] child molestation, please feel free to post it.  Other-
wise, it's simply another emotionally disturbed ad hominem attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky ca.politics:9816 talk.politics.misc:61370
From: kberry@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (Kim A. Berry)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Porkbarrel 1993: Housing & Redevelopment
Date: 23 Nov 92 13:59:16 GMT
Reply-To: kberry@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US (Kim A. Berry)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sacramento Public Access Unix, Sacramento, Ca.


                      *** NEWS RELEASE ***

                                                        300 Words
Mr. Kim Berry
Work: (916) 786-3900 x4964 
(24-hour voice mail)

  Pork Barrel 1993: Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency

In spite of the National Debt, budget deficits, school closures,
and sheriff layoffs, the 1993 budget for the federally funded
Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency (SHRA) is $214 million.

Among the programs administered by SHRA's 300 employees is the
Mortgage Certificate Program, which provides a 20% tax credit on
mortgage interest payments for the life of the loan. For example,
a loan with a monthly interest payment of $800 would be reduced by
$2000 per year. Over the 30 year life of the loan this subsidy
would cost taxpayers $60,000.

Eligibility requirements consist of a maximum income of $43,000 for
households of less than 3 persons, or $49,450 for households of 3
or more persons. The new home cannot exceed $198,360, and, unless
the home is located in a federally designated target area, the
buyer must not have owned a principal residence in the last three
years.

Recipients are eligible for the program regardless of whether they
need the subsidy to qualify for their mortgage.

Sacramento County officials claim they are unable to provide basic
shelter for the homeless. A mere 5% allocation of SHRA's budget
could rent 1000 housing units at $800 per month. Alternately, 5%
could fund construction of a homeless shelter that would rival the
Hyatt Hotel.

If these funds were used to create jobs rather than given away as
entitlements, SHRA's budget could create over 7000 local jobs
paying $30,000 per year.

New home prices in Sacramento County have declined since 1990, and
interest rates are at a 20 year low. Taxpayers may question the
fairness of a program in which low income renters and families
suffering economic hardships subsidize middle-class homeowners.
Nationally these housing programs cost taxpayers tens of billions
each year, and are a significant contributor to the National Debt.

For more information, contact: Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment
Agency, 488 I Street, Sacramento, CA 95814 (916) 440-1350. 

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
     (Mr.) Kim Berry              kberry@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US
Xref: sparky ca.politics:9814 ba.politics:7341 alt.homosexual:357 talk.politics.misc:61347
From: chased@rbbb.Eng.Sun.COM (David Chase)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Wilson recall campaign info
Date: 22 Nov 92 02:08:10 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbbb

In article <By1wA7.16E@taligent.com> Rick_Donnelly@taligent.com (Rick Donnelly) writes:
>The Wilson recall campaign needs volunteers from all over
>the state to circulate petitions and assist in other ways.

Just cause I'm curious (and inclined to sign), is this "reactionary
assholes against Wilson", or "gay-symp communist scum against Wilson"?

Or, is this a bi-extremist (analogous to bi-partisan) recall campaign?

David Chase
Sun