HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Calif. Forfeiture laws
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 21:04:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

>	Does anyone know if California has forfeiture laws
>similar to many of the other states?...
>
>-garrett 

It is my understanding that Dan Lungren, the Attorney General, is now
lobbying furiously to get forfeiture laws passed.  He, you will recall,
is the one who ran TV spots vainly trying to get semi-auto owners to 
piss their Second Amendment rights away by registering.  He also set
up a toll-free inquiry number (all toll-free numbers have optional
caller ID--gotcha!).

Being a member of the Democratic Party, the folks who have openly, and
with a straight face, praised the income tax as an instrument of
"redistribution of wealth", Lungren is no stranger to State-sponsored
LOOTING.


    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Ann Landers and Prohibition
Organization: Cadence Design Systems
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 19:37:26 GMT

In article <15199@borg.cs.unc.edu> bell@bodie.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
>Read Ann Landers's column, September 10, 1992.  To paraphrase, she says
>she now believes alcohol to be the most dangerous drug of all, and the
>answer to handling it is not Prohibition but education.
>
>Clip it out.  Show it to pro-WOD types.  Maybe that will work where your
>nice reasoned arguments won't.

Also, write to Ann and ask her why she thinks Prohibition won't work for
alcohol but will work for other drugs.

Maybe we can finally convince her...

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

"Noisemaker, Noisemaker, you have no complaint.
 You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't.
 So listen up buster, and listen up good:
 Stop wishin' for bad luck and knockin' on wood.

 Signed, Dear Abby"

	-John Prine
From: allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: drugs
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:29:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <1992Sep25.223732.13087@bradley.bradley.edu>, pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
> My point in quoting them was to refute a point that K*nt attempted to
> make about how people would inevitably slide into decay and idiocy by
> using drugs.  I pointed out that 75% of heroin users in a 1919 study
> *were gainfully employed*, despite Heroin's horror reputation.  That
> does not mean that the other 25% were unemployed BECAUSE of the drug,
> and it does not have any relevance to OTHER drugs, but he seems incapable
> of any real logic, so I dropped it.

	Quite. What was the proportion at that time of unemployed people? 
As I recall, the US was in a recession around the beginnings of the 1920s. 
In addition, were the users, given socioeconomic status _before_ using the 
drug, more or less tending to be employed than others of that same status, 
education, etc.?
	-Allen
From: dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: spelling this stuff out real clearly
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:09:38 GMT

Gary Heston proposes having potential drug users sign away their rights
to government largesse for results of using the same drugs the
government is about to give them, in "the eugenic approach".

Still not good enough.  Something more like:

"Since the substance we are about to provide you, Free of Charge and in
as large a quantity as you can reasonably consume, is known or
suspected to cause mental impairment which is likely to leave you a
vegetable without sufficient mental faculties to support yourself as a
member of society, since that damage may be untraceable by normal
analytic processes, and occur only incrementally or long after the
incidence of using the substance we are about to provide, and since we
have no intention of supporting you for problems you cause yourself
from lack of common sense and a surplus of self-indulgence, do you
hereby agree to relinquish your rights to all government, charitable,
and other forms of support in the case that you later in life become
incapacitated, in any manner whatever?"

Can't participate in the social contract, can't abide living in reality,
opt out, but take all the consequences up front.

I'd be perfectly happy to grant exemptions to the motorcycle helmet law
recently passed in California on exactly the same grounds. Of course,
helmets aren't an unmixed blessing. When I shattered my shoulder, my
head hit first and hardest, and the bone there is much thinner. Without
that helmet, which received only a paint chip of damage, and my head
none, you'd not be enjoying these lovely postings, 'cause I'd be dead
or a vegetable.

The same thinking that says: "your freedom to ride a motorcycle without
a helmet is less valuable, to me, than my freedom from taxes heavy
enough to provide you lifetime care in the likely event you make
yourself a vegetable" says I can judge, based on the effect on _my_
paycheck, whether or not I'm going to allow you, in the society whose
upkeep my taxes support, to take those other trips you desire so
fervently, at, likely, _my_ eventual expense.

CJ quotes Franklin on this subject, but misses that important little
word "essential"; reading skills make all the difference; Franklin
certainly knew how to write _exactly_ what he meant.

Kent, the man from xanth.
"The Birthright of humankind is the stars!"
--
Ignore the header, and don't expect me to see a news reply.  We don't get news.
Use email to: <dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil> or <dolan@192.138.87.240>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: spelling this stuff out real clearly
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:16:36 GMT

In article <9209281704.AA01109@helium>, dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
...
> ...  When I shattered my shoulder, my
> head hit first and hardest, and the bone there is much thinner. 

AHA! So THAT'S what happened. Now we understand.

> Kent, the man from xanth.
> "The Birthright of humankind is the stars!"
> --
> Ignore the header, and don't expect me to see a news reply.  We don't get news.
> Use email to: <dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil> or <dolan@192.138.87.240>
-- 
|-------------------------------------|--------------------------------|
| If we had an index file, we could   | In fact, except for protecting |
| look it up in the index file under  | individual rights, no valid    |
| "Index File".                       | reason for government exists." |
|           -- Tegan in "Castrovalva" |      ... Dr. Frank Wallace     |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bill Garland = bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca |Commercial : Send me your money.|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: tom@vexcel.com (Tom Baltzer)
Subject: Re: spelling this stuff out real clearly
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:11:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.114636.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>In article <9209281704.AA01109@helium>, dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>...
>> ...  When I shattered my shoulder, my
>> head hit first and hardest, and the bone there is much thinner. 
>
>AHA! So THAT'S what happened. Now we understand.

Indeed!

Y'know what I find most humorous about this is how K*nt rants and
raves about that small statistical probablility of using drugs should
make us all worry that it will happen to me, but here quite plainly 
shows how he doesn't apply that same reasoning to himself.  I mean 
there certainly are a bunch of dead or useless individuals out there
as a result of riding motorcycles!  So we should outlaw motorcycles! 

>
>> Kent, the man from xanth.
>> "The Birthright of humankind is the stars!"
>> --
>> Ignore the header, and don't expect me to see a news reply.  We don't get news.
>> Use email to: <dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil> or <dolan@192.138.87.240>
>-- 
>|-------------------------------------|--------------------------------|
>| If we had an index file, we could   | In fact, except for protecting |
>| look it up in the index file under  | individual rights, no valid    |
>| "Index File".                       | reason for government exists." |
>|           -- Tegan in "Castrovalva" |      ... Dr. Frank Wallace     |
>|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
>| Bill Garland = bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca |Commercial : Send me your money.|
>|----------------------------------------------------------------------|


Tom
tom@vexcel.com
From: allens@yang.earlham.edu (Allen Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: dolan certified mentally ill
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:19:21 GMT
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <9209251956.AA00372@helium>, dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
> Perhaps you should go back in your capacious knowledge of
> history, Mathew, and reviews the origin of the phrase
> "killing the messenger". What you think of me has exactly
> no bearing on the factual nature of the message I bear, it
> merely interferes with your ability to comprehend that
> message dispassionately. So does drug use, by coincidence.

	Funny, you're doing the same thing yourself: you are claiming that 
anyone who uses illegal drugs (uses, mind, not abuses; I (as well as, I 
would say, the other people posting here, would agree that abuse can 
certainly result in problems) isn't capable of comprehending the 
consequences of that usage rationally- isn't capable of rationally 
speaking against you.
	-Allen
From: grd@VESTA.PHYSICS.UIOWA.EDU (Grant Denn)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: More NYNEX
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:54:25 GMT


A bit of info on NYNEX:  in 1990 here in Iowa we had a  US Senate race
between Tom Tauke (Republican) and Tom Harkin (Democratic).  Harkin won
by a few percentage points.  Tauke, who formerly was a congressman, picked up
a job (presumably on the Useless Unelectable Republican Support Group/Network)
as a lobbyist for NYNEX.

Last year I was a registered Republican, as an attempt to infiltrate and subvert
the party (it didn't work.)  During this election year, I am so fed up with the
rhetoric it is too embarrassing.

AND SPEAKING of Useless Repubs, Our leader grande GHWB was heard on my
clock radio on NPR a few minutes ago saying something like "Criminals should
Go To Jail, Stay In Jail, and Rot In Jail".   With his narrow-minded definition
of the world "Criminal", I expect 40% (-a statistic I made up) of our populace
soon to be incarcerated.  YUM!

Rot in Hell, George

Grant
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs,alt.culture.usenet
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: spelling this stuff out real clearly
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 21:58:14 GMT

>Kent P. Dolan, Hasan B. Mutlu; any resemblance?  The meaning will be clear
>to anyone that reads soc.history and various other rooms.  For those unaware,
>Mr. Mutlu is a Turkish propagandist attempting to use the "big lie" technique
>to convince people that the Turkish massacre of the Armenians never happened.

I thought the benchmark for flame wars was a comparison to Hiter.  How
does Mutlu fit in the scale?  How many Mutlus is one Hitler?

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: spelling this stuff out clearly
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 16:06:06 GMT



I'd just like to know why Kent feels he "has" to live in a neighborhood
that is apparently almost beyond his means.  (from his own description of
his financial status).
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
         "There is no time for metaphors," cried the little pill to me
             He said, "Life is a placebo masquerading as a simile."
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: ash@ulysses.mr.ams.com (Alan Harder)
Subject: CBAA advertisement
Organization: American Math. Society
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:51:20 GMT

Found in an advertisement from Concerned Businessmen's Association of
America:

"The theme for 1991-1992 is 'SET A GOOD EXAMPLE-BE HONEST,
TRUSTWORTHY, AND COMPETENT.'  This theme aligns with the President's
national goals for drug-free, violence-free schools, 'Excellence in
Education' and 'Literacy.'"

This coming from a President that is neither honest, trustworthy, nor
competent.  Sheesh!
From: hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Paul Hager)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: milk drinkers
Date: 26 Sep 92 07:30:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University

dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:

>I said:

>> Most users of "hard" illegal substances have a history of
>> beginning with pot.

>Curtis Yarvin replied:

>> Most users of "hard" illegal substances have a history of 
>> beginning with mother's milk.

>> Back to Logic 101, Herr Genius.

>Amazing the level of innumeracy among the denial cohort.

Actually, most users of "hard" drugs have a history of beginning
with alcohol and tobacco, not pot.  Pot is number 3 on the list.
This embarrassing fact for prohibitionists has led them in newer
propaganda -- excuse me -- literature, to refer to "the gateway
drugs, alcohol and tobacco."

Besides, as I pointed out in another post, liberalization of 
marijuana laws in both the U.S. and Holland was followed by a
decline in hard drug use.  Now, if the gateway theory were
correct, the increase in availability of pot should have been
matched by an increase in hard drug use.

The so-called gateway theory is an example of post hoc reasoning
and has no scientific validity.

>There is a disproportional representation, compared to the
>proportion in the population, of former or current marijuana
>users among "hard" illegal substance users.

see above ...

>There is no such disproportional representation of milk
>drinkers.

...

>When you finally get through ninth grade algebra with complete
>understanding, Curtis, try Stat. 101.

>And I'm not a genius, but, luckily, two of my three kids are.

This is really just a matter of data.  The data do no support
the gateway idea so we don't even have to address methodological
or epistomological concerns of correlation and causality.

>It doesn't take a genius to laugh at the incredibly stupid
>arguments the drug legalization proponents use.  Just being
>enough smarter than they are to see the joke is good enough.

I hate to quote Bill Buckley but, the argument against prohibition
is "data driven."  Reputable prohibitionists eschew the gateway
idea about marijuana for the reasons I stated above.

>The example is sufficient unto itself.

>Kent, the man from xanth.
>"The Birthright of humankind is the stars!"
>--
>Ignore the header, and don't expect me to see a news reply.  Use email to:
><dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil> or <dolan@192.138.87.240>
-- 
paul hager		hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu

"I would give the Devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake."
                       --from _A_Man_for_All_Seasons_ by Robert Bolt
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Civil forfeiture in Australia
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 03:10:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>To paraphrase Arthur Dent: this is
>some strange, new meaning of the phrase "enormous success rate" that
>I hadn't previously been aware of.

Indeed.

Recently, the "drug warriors" in the USA announced (in a press release
that was posted to this newsgroup) that their interdictions and seizures
had driven up the street price of cocaine from US$12,000/kilogram to
US$17,000/kilogram.

As a consequence, all remaining drug lords, as well as those entering
the market, now gross $5000/kilogram more than they did last fall (the
basis of the comparison).

And it's all *profit*.

Forgive me for being boring, but this escalation of the incentive for
entering the black market in politically incorrect drugs was reported
by the Prohibition authorities, who offered it as evidence for their
*success*.



    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: "Paul Hager" <hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: The Black Hole -- Clinton/Gore non-response
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:40:57 -0500

I recieved information that an information/discussion mail
server now exists for Clinton/Gore.

	clinton-wins@mail.clinton-gore.org

Following the directions, I sent off -- again -- my letter to
Clinton.  I also asked for their list of numbered questions
on which people can vote (put "question get" on the subject line)
and a similar list of numbered suggestions (put "suggest get" on
the subject line).

The response: nothing.

I was looking for something in their list of questions or their
list of suggestions that would pertain to crime and the drug war.
The fact that I've received nothing back would indicate that the
server isn't working.  The mail didn't bounce so I assume that
the messages/requests got through.

I'll try again at some point and if I do get anything of interest,
I'll post.
-- 
paul hager		hagerp@moose.cs.indiana.edu

"I would give the Devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake."
                       --from _A_Man_for_All_Seasons_ by Robert Bolt
From: dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil (Kent Paul Dolan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Franklin quote
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:47:04 GMT

CJ,

> "drive for intoxication"

Oh, absolutely. You can get rats to push a button feeding a charge into a
wire into their brain until they die of thirst or starvation, with both
food and water freely available.  An _excellent_ argument for the kind
of society you propose.

I'm nowhere near a functional library, so don't hold your breath on me
doing research.  And do keep believing I couldn't possibly have any
rational grounds for my beliefs.

I can hardly wait to see how many "rats" you can get engaged in that
"drive for intoxication" once you make getting "wired" a lot easier
than it is today.

Sure does explain _your_ busy insistance on full freedom to indulge,
doesn't it?

Sure _doesn't_ prove that this drive, any more than the obvious
impulses, traceable through most of the primates, to rape or to murder,
are something that should be promoted for the betterment of society.

Someone, somewhere, is sure to have noted that civilization is the
sublimation of basic drives to healthier substitutes.

Do try to explain to me, independent of the obvious disbenefits of the
methods needed to surpress drug use, the _benefits_ of a society a good
number of whose members at any given time are not well connected to
reality.

I don't want to ride the trains or planes or drive the highways where
you've succeeded, and walking the streets will be equally dicey.

Kent, the man from xanth.
"The Birthright of humankind is the stars!"
--
Ignore the header, and don't expect me to see a news reply.  We don't get news.
Use email to: <dolan@nrlmry.navy.mil> or <dolan@192.138.87.240>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
From: gak@wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Subject: No More Drug War Foundation
Reply-To: gak@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:44:27 GMT

I know the No More Drug War Foundation went out of business earlier
this year (bah!), but I was wondering if there might still be a
stockpile of their "Prohibition Doesn't Work" stickers somewhere.  I
may have found a use for a gross or so...

thx
gak

---
Richard Stueven        gak@wrs.com         attmail!gakhaus!gak        107/H/3&4
          To sight it must ring clear as a bell, it must snap
          in the ear, feel pleasantly sticky between the fingers,
          smell fresh and tempting and taste heavenly.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs,misc.legal
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Are There ANY Restrictions on the Application of Civil Forfeiture?
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:52:19 GMT


Are there any limits at all on the use of civil forfeiture by law 
enforcement or can they extend it to all statutory crimes?
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
 
[.sig on vacation]
From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: Prohibition
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:25:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <16119@borg.cs.unc.edu>, bell@cezanne.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) writes:
> Having argued drug prohibition with Kent way back in 1988, and finding
> him still showing the same complete lack of logic, I find it much like
> trying to teach a pig to sing.  However, I'll both post and e-mail
> him, in the vain hope that it might educate anyone who believes him.

As a bystander/observer of H*s articles, I don't believe H*m.

Most of us living right here and now experience what the WoSD
has brought on society in the name of government sponsored
hysteria or contemporary prohibition.

H* wants to paint what H* thinks will be the downfall of America
if recreational drug use and sale for that use is granted equal
status with tobacco and alcohol.

The only facts H* has presented so far are anectdotal or what
H* says H*s wife experienced or saw.

My question would be, "why does anyone bother to argue with H*m"?
It seems obvious to me that H*s past abuse with drugs has glazed
the walls of H*s skull to a mirror finish, that whenever H* invokes
thoughts to form an argument, the words forming in H*s head are
greatly influenced and filtered through the constant reflection of
H*s own fine image in the circle of mirrors.

Just my thoughts: Begin round 4,023?

barry--