From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Good Bye Mr. Bush ( The End)
Date: 21 Nov 1992 22:18:57 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

I wrote , and then Nadeem wrote, and then I wrote, and then Nadeem wrote,
and then I wrote again, and this time Nadeem wrote( with Gul Agha's Help) again
And so I reply.....

*************************************
>	Remember, I told earliar to look few paras down below. This is where
>I wanted you to come. I did not use any ethinic goup's name at all.
>You in your usual way have jumped on me (remember, I am a Khan and I can
>jump back :-) ) and accused of God knows what. I was talking about
>the kind of leaders we have been getting in the Govt. Seems like
>We do not really have any Muhajirs in the Govt. Otherwise if they were
>crooks and in the Govt, I would have blamed them too. So, before I 
>put some data below, You.. and people like Muhammad Javed Iqbal and
>Rahim should stop blaming "Muhajirs" (using the term you used) for
>every major fuck up in Pakistan. 
>Now we will see the origin of people who have been ruling Pakistan
>for last 45 years. You will be surprised. It is coming from my memory
>and may be the ordering is not correct. Also if I have made a mistake
>please correct me. We will go in LIFO order ( last in first out)
>
>	Name 			Place of Birth/ Background
>
>	Navaz Sharif		Punjab / Kashmiri
>	Benazir			Sindh / Sindhi + Irani
>	Ishaq			N.W.F.P / Pashtoon
>	Jatoi			Sindh
>	Junejo			Sindh
>	Zia-ul-Haq		East Panjab 
>	Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto	Sindh 
>	Yahya			N.W.F.P / Irani(?)
>	Ayub Khan		Panjab / Pashtoon
>	Iskandar Mirza 		Bombay Area (*)
>	Ghulam Mohammad 	Hyderabad Deccan / Panjab (**)
>	Hussain Sohrawardy	West Bengal/ Panjab
>	Chaudhry Mohammad Ali	East Panjab
>	Feroz Khan Noon		Panjab
>	Bogra			East Bengal
>	Khwaja Nazimuddin	Bengal
>	Liaquat Ali Khan	East Panjab( Dist. Kernaal)
>	Mr. M. A. Jinnah        Sindh / Gujrati speaking paraents
>
>(*) In this long list, the only person I am not sure of is 
>	Major General Iskandar Mirza. I guess, he was from around
>	Bombay, but Bombay like Karachi is a cosmopolitan city,
>	so he may not necessarily be a Marathaa. May be he was 
>	an Urdu speaking, may be not.
>	He is the only ruler Pakistan had, during whose rule Pakistan's
>	area actually increased. Pakistan successfully negotiated
>	Gawadar with Muscat. Pakistan payed some money as a token
>	of friendship and took control of Gavadar port in Makran.
>	But I blame him for introducing Zulfi Bhutto into Pakistan
>	Govt. Pakistanis paid dearly for this mistake of Mirza.
>
>(**) Malik Ghulam Mohammad was born in Hyderabad Deccan, and 
>	was an ethnic Panjabi. He is not only responsible for 
>	suggesting Kashmir/Hyderabad trade-off..... thus fucking
>	both, but also happens to be the first ever dictator
>	of Pakistan. He dismissed Prime Minister Khwaja Nazimuddin
>	for no reason.
>
>So dude, as we can see from the list above, there are not too many
>"Muhajirs" [almost none at all, in the sense you use this word]
>to be blamed. 
>Same goes for other ministers/cabinets. I came up with the above list
>based on my memory, and can not provide any references 
>For those
>who are interested in Ethnic Composition of Several Pakistan Cabinets
>Khalid Ben Sayed talks about this in one of his books (published 80's).
>
>so you, and others like you, should stop blaming Muhajirs. They are not
>Farishtaas, but not responsible for the situation we got in Pakistan.
>
>Racism sucks. I did not want to talk in these terms. But you forced
>me to tell you why  I had not included any Muhajir among major fuckers
>in Pakistani Govt.
>It has been 45 years since Pakistan was founded. We  still got people
>dying  in floods, while their representives were having good
>time in Islamabad. We still have  terrible living conditions in lyari
>and their polo-playing representive was busy collecting rishvats and
>fooling around with Japanese babe. 
>If you have ever been to Lyari, you will realize that not only the people
>they have sent to Govt have done nothing for them, but in fact screw up
>the whole pakistan. Their representive live miles away from them and
>come to lyari only during election season. In order to get rid of
>these idiots like Zardari, Benazir, and Navaz..... we need wide spread
>education so people will figure out  Milk Kaa Milk, and Water Kaa water.
>So cutie pie, I hope we all  get rid of racism. 
>Do not blame some one just because he/she speaks a diferent lang./ belongs to
>different race, has another color etc..
***********************************************
>
>

>Dear Mansoor Khan
	Yes dear? 
>I am really not interested in a serious debate on any of these issues. If
	I do not think you ever were. You are the one who told me to
	buy a soap for my 2000 body parts and more :-), you told me
	to relieve myself, and thanks for your advice, and changed the topic
	from the discussion of corrupt politicians like Navaz Sharif,
	Benazir and Zardari, and Jatoi into arguments over Muhajirs. You
	forced me to put the data about Pakistani rulers' ethnicity.
	Zaahir hae, you were not serious!

>I were, I would have responded to your criticism of Quota System in another
>recent posting. There is hardly anything achieved in such debates. In the other
>posting, you have also referred to the "Hyderabad massacre". I have on many
>occasions commented on such propaganda, and have given quite conclusive
>arguements in justification of population based quota system, and the
>Hyderbad cleanup operation. Each time after my response no one had anything
	Not this time baby, try me. There is no way anyone can justify
	the quota system the way it is implemented in Pakistan. And there is
	no way one can justify killings like those in Hyderabad, Sindh.
	In short Quota System promotes people like those who cannot take care
	of Floods in Panjab, and screw up railway control systems in Sukker.
	May be the people who were responsible for managing the two were
	selected and promoted-der-promoted because of their race/language
	and not because of their talent. Watch out for more disasters
	in Pakistan in future. 

>to say. But what is achieved in that. After a couple of months someone new
>comes and says the same things and I am considered obliged to repeat my 
      No baby no, I am not a new one. I have been watching  garbage from people
	like you, Muhammad Javed Iqbal, and Rahim. Recently Mirza Ilyas
	has tried to fill up the position left vacant by Muhammad Javed Iqbal.
	So bulbul, I am not new.... I have been watching you Shareers for
	a long time. 
>arguements. Unfortunately despite the fact that many people seem to be
>interested in following these debates (and as one gentleman once said that
>he had saved some 100 postings in such a debate) no one considered it useful
>to store it in the ftp site where transcripts of other debates were being
>saved. I'm still waiting for someone unbiased to make an FAQ as brother
>Haroon Dogar had suggested. Honestly, I don't have time to repeat the whole
>thing again and again... That's exactly why this time I did not make any
>accusations, contrary to what you are bent upon accusing me of. I tried my
>best to avoid it.... and BTW, if you think I am a racist, I'm afraid you
	Well, may be you are not. But you do make comments like that.
	May be because of ignorance. 
>are very wrong. Either you don't know what racisim is.. or you don't know
>enough about me... or maybe both...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Do not underestimate a khan. >
>My objective this time was mainly to point out your use of offensive language
>about women of your country... I consider the word 'bitch' particularly sexist.
>... because this word is applicable to only women... similarly, I had objected
>to Saad Shafqat's calling Benazir the Prime Minister who sleeps with Asif
	Tell that to Saad Shafqat. He and I do not work in a team fashion,
	Unlike some others on the net. :-). 
>Zardari. Such comments are particularly despicable because they can be used
>against women only because they are women. What if some one asked you, "How
>is the man who sleeps with your mother" rather than "How is your dad?". Sexism
	Was this question for me or for Saad Shafqat :-).  If it was
	for me, I have no problem.

>whether it is on scp.. or in the Canadian parliament when someone called a
>woman 'slut' is unfortunate. 
>
>Similarly, using words like 'shit-head' is hardly condusive to a healthy
>discussion... if you just want to use dirty language against someone, then
>accept it. If you want a healthy debate or even if you want to make a
	Yes, I accept it. I hate Bhutto and Zardari because the way they
	have ruined Pakistan. I hate Her father, and I hate her grandfather.
	If you knew any history of the province you claim to be yours,
	you will hate Benazir's grandfather too. Do you know, that
	Sir Shah Navaz Bhutto was against Sindh becoming a province,
	and always worked against the interest of people of Sindh
	And I hate  Daacoos like Navaz Sharif and Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain.
	Now you must know why I use dirty language for them. They do not
	deserve any better.

>political statement, you aught to behave maturely. Shithead is hardly 
>something Bhutto was. Using dirty language for someone hoping that it
	Bhutto either was a shit-head or a traitor to Pakistan. Who will
	get the country into 1965 war, refuse the results of 1970 elections,
	or throw away the Polish Resolution for Cease-Fire in East PAkistan.
	Bhutto was either a stupid who did not know any thing. But, if you
	think he was really smart, then baby, he was working against the
	interest of Pakistan.

>would in some way ruin his image hardly behooves normal grown-ups. As
	Do not worry. Even I dont beleive that my writing any thing
	against Z. Bhutto or Navaz Sharif will ruin their images.
	Pakistan is country full of Jaahils. People with short term
	dynamic RAM. No refreshing mechanism. 
	As long as majority of Pakistanis is Jaahil, don't you worry
	about me writing things against great Bhottos and Sharifs and
	Jatois and Ayubs. They will keep fucking Pakistan for generations.

>I mentioned in a response to an indian netter, it is just like calling
>Pakistan fuckistan and being amused... I'll repeat what I said last time..
>I'm really surprised that cultures where such things are considered
>at least amusing, exist today.

>Peace (thanks Gul Agha)
	And next time write your own postings. No outside help please :-)

>Nadeem

Mansoor Ahmed Khan
Cleveland


Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan