HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: Eve Mitochondia?
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:45:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.234925.5246@trl.oz.au>, jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
writes:
> Further, if all mitochondrial DNA was inherited matrilineally, the
> proponents of the Eve hypothesis would still be guilty, this time
> of circular reasoning and, again, of selective use of the data.
> The circular reasoning and selected use of the data are this:
> 
> Let there be traits only transmissible via females.
> Let us consider those traits in restituting the phylogeny of
> the species.
> Since those traits are transmitted only by females, the
> nodes of the tree, and therefore its root, represent females.
> Therefore, all individuals are descended from the same female.
> 
> Intellectual dishonesty and hocus pocus, nothing more.

   A truely remarkable misrepresentation.  

   The idea is:

   Since MDNA is mostly inherited maternally and since evolutionary theory
predicts a probability of 99.99999999% that humanity has some most recent
common female ancestor let us see if MDNA can be used, under the assumption of
parsimony, to locate her in time and space.

   The result is:

   We cannot yet do the search for a parsimonious descent tree because our
algorithms are not good enough yet on the available computers.



   If you read the Eve hypothisis papers you will see that common descent is an
assumption of the work not a conclusion.  Where did you hear about the theory?

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
(God, what a nitwit)
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Rocca di Papa
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:22:23 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1993Jan17.214909.4833@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser") writes:
|> kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
|> >Who know anything about the street in Frascati called "Rocca di Papa"?
|> >I heard that if you put a bottle on the street at a certain place, it'll
|> >roll uphill.
|> 
|> Places like this are moderately common; there's one within a couple of hours'
|> drive of my hometown (the "Irish Hills" of Michigan).  It's an optical
|> illusion.  The bottle is actually rolling downhill, but the unusual
|> conformation of the landscape (or cityscape) around it makes it look as though
|> it is going uphill.

If you want a more controlled version of the same illusion - go to your local
amusement park and visit the 'crooked house' - and watch billiard balls curve
in a U and chairs 'stick' to the wall.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:48:37 EST
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:

> >What [the Vedic commentator] said was that the astronauts never went 
> >to the moon, and his
> >reason was that the moon is impossible to reach by mankind's present
> >technology [because the Moon is 800,000 miles more distant than the Sun],
> >not that it is impossible to reach by space flight.
> 
> 
> Now you've done it. Now you've said something so obviously and 
> imponderably foolish that all but the
> most desperately deluded readers of this group will reject you and
> anything else you might say. I won't even bother to ask how the
> Vedas explain eclipses. They're all crap. I might as well ask my
> dog to explain relativity. Good bye, Kalki.

Goodbye, Schumacher. Sorry for your misfortune.

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa

       ---------------------------------------------------------
      |                Don't forget to chant:                   |
      |                                                         |
      |  Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |       Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare          |
      |                                                         |
      |    Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA      |
      |           (kalki@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us)           |
       ---------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: dfox@quack.sac.ca.us (David Fox)
Subject: Re: Astrology: weaning a loved one
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: 23 Jan 1993 08:16:43 UTC

In article <1jhgmlINNjvr@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:
>In article <47680001@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM>, antonsen@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM (Tim Antonsen) writes:
>|> Problem: How does one deal with a loved one who believes in astrology. This
>|>          is a bright person, well read in literature and the arts but not
>|>          well-educated in the sciences. When faced with a statement like
 

>Otherwise, you can ask a series of (somewhat intelligence-insulting)
>question, like whether or not it matters that the space shuttle is
>rising in Aquarius when a person is born, or how come all Piscean's
>aren't even remotely the same, or why don't extremely energetic
>objects like quasars count?  Ask about the bodies of the solor system
>that have been discovered since ancient times (planets, asteroids,
>extremely long-period comets.

Also don't forget that the crux of astrology (sun-sign astrology) is
supposed to predict certain behavioral characteristics that are dependent
on the Sun being in a particular constellation at a given time of the
year.  Sad to say, the astrologers have not kept up to date with the
precession of the equinoxes, so saying I am a Gemini because my birthday
falls during Gemini's dates in the newspaper doesn't help, since the Sun
is _not_ in the constellation of Gemini then.

Also, I wonder what the astrologers would do with the knowledge that in
fact, during part of the year, the Sun actually is in the constellation
of Ophiuchus, which isn't even on the list of signs in the daily newspaper.

I'm not very well versed in the beliefs of astrology, so I don't have
a feel how important this realization is compared to the other factors
that influence horoscopes.

>73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
>phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
>phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
>phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
in real life: david fox            email: dfox@quack.sac.ca.us
5479 Castle Manor Drive,                  
San Jose, CA 95129                 "Thanks for letting me change some
USA                                 magnetic patterns on your HD" -me
408-253-7992                        
"You've just won an absolutely FREE trip to the Isles of Langerhans" -me
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com>
Subject: does this sound right?
Reply-To: "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 23 Jan 93 16:25:45 EST

        I presume many of us have inborn "twit" filters that make us
examine everything we read or hear. Mine went off many times with a
WOrld WIldlife Fund commercial, that is probably played as a public
service. Its claim - one acre of rain forest is destroyed every second
(and they claim the destruction is "forever".

         Well, let's see:365 days*24 hours*60 minutes*60 seconds =

 5,256,000 acres/year. My dictionary says 1 sq mile = 640 acres.

 So 5,256,000/640 = 8215 square miles, about 90 by 90 miles. Well, that
starts to become an image I can deal with, and actually is more
believable to me, 'tho exaggeration is common in activist groups.

   The "gone forever" part gives me more trouble, unless every acre is
on a mountainside and quickly devastated by erosion, or unless third
world countries are erecting shopping malls at an alarming rate.

   ANyone have anything useful to add on these claims, or handy sources
of info, perhaps my twit filter gave a false alert.

---
  OLX 2.1 TD  Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: wsadjw@rw8.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: tv & science education
Date: 23 Jan 93 14:39:04 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Distribution: sci
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1993Jan20.4286.31906@dosgate> "dan mckinnon" <dan.mckinnon@canrem.com> writes:
>
>         We could argue about how well informed "average" people can be
>expected to be. By definition, about 50% of people are less than
>average. It is a problem in our society - You can claim to belong to

[etc.]
Only with a very liberal definition of "average" and "about 50%", or
in case the quantity that's being averaged is symmetrically distributed
around some value.  It certainly is not *by definition* that 50% is
less than average.  By definition 50% is less than the median. This is
not some theoretical point.  The distribution of many important things
is very skewed.

Maybe newspapers should have a section in which concepts like "average",
"mean", "modus",  "standard deviation" and so on are explained every
day.  Just for the benefit of Mensa members that don't know their statistics.

JWN
From: system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:13:37 EST
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

> ...... Indian astrology is based on Hellenistic
> astrology; even the names of the constellations are similar. So I'd
> presume it would include the belief that the Moon is closer to the
> Earth than the Sun.

This is false. Vedic astronomy is not based on Greek astronomy. If
anything, it is the other way around. See the book Vedic Cosmography and
Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson. Also see the paper On the Antiquity of
the Star Coordinates from Indian Jyotisha Shastras, by the same author.

> 	As to Vedic astronomy, I wouldn't be very surprised if it
> wasn't very sophisticated; apparently the Vedas teach explicitly that
> the Earth is flat, which may give pause to Hindu fundamentalists like
> the Hare Krishnas.

No, the Vedas teach that the Bhu-Mandala planetary system, of which the
spherical Earth planet is a tiny part, is a higher-dimensional disk
embedded in higher-dimensional space. The Vedic Jyotisha shastras
explicitly acknowledge that the earth "as we know it" is a sphere.
Translators who know nothing of Vedic philosophy and science lump many
different Sanskrit terms together and call them all "Earth."

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa


       ---------------------------------------------------------
      |                Don't forget to chant:                   |
      |                                                         |
      |  Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |       Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare          |
      |                                                         |
      |    Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA      |
      |           (kalki@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us)           |
       ---------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 06:01:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.014056.2514@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>In article <kHHVXB6w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>>lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>: 	But try looking at the Moon through a small telescope sometime
>: and see if it looks like "cosmic fire".
>>
>>In truth, I must say yes, the Moon does look like cosmic fire to me. So
>>does the earth, for that matter.
>
>	Then, what _doesn't_ look like cosmic fire?

Cosmic water, maybe?  ;)

-- 
John Mechalas                                          "I'm not an actor, but
mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu                                 I play one on TV."
Aero Engineering, Purdue University                     #include disclaimer.h
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: Astrology: weaning a loved one
Organization: Pages Software Inc.
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 18:56:05 GMT

In article <1jhup2INN9q3@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J  
Lydick) writes:
> 
> ...Cold reading is a technique whereby you can walk up to a stranger and tell
> that stranger lots of fairly detailed information about himself. It relies on
> making initial ambiguous statements and observing the stranger's reactions to
> them. In a short while, you can frequently get the person to tell you quite a
> bit about himself without realizing he has done so.  Then, when you finally
> make the specific statements, the stranger is amazed at the fact you know so
> much about them.  The application to astrology should be obvious.
> 

Cold reading is a pretty good parlour trick (as mentioned above). How
does one deal with specific statement about an individual when there
has been absolutely no contact (i.e. the "reading" was done via mail
or some sort of remote correspondence -- gee, maybe email :-)

Kevin
-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: 1-900/psychics
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:03:54 GMT

rdnelson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger D. Nelson) writes in part:
RDN Your lament comes up here, now and again.  While it may seem important
RDN to save people from themselves, and from con-men, there are a few dozen
RDN or million other things that are more important, depending on one's
RDN philosophical stance.  An example in the same territory as your concern
RDN is the proliferation of "Prize winning" opportunities with judging fees,
RDN the new hi-tech versions of Keno in bars and restaurants, and the
RDN lotteries that purport to support so much societally important stuff in
RDN some ever more states.   Just try to fix it all.

REM It is interesting to note that all of the con's listed here, including
REM infomercials and 900 numbers, could well be regulated by governements.  
REM I hardly think a sigh and an "oh well" are really justified where
REM a little political will could do a lot to clean things up.  In fact,
REM such an atitude is a large contributor to the lack of such political
REM will.
>
RDN My admittedly obscure point was that "governments" are sponsoring or
RDN at least allowing ever more sucker games.  
RDN My feeling is that that in itself is a bad thing,
RDN not so much because it sucks money out of shallow pockets, though that
RDN is bad, but because is trains us all, by example, to be less creative,
RDN productive, self-sufficient, clear-minded, and it saps our collective
RDN (is there any other sort?) "political will".

I don't think we disagree about the cheap psychic vending stuff.
I think I detected unacceptable levels of "mopery" in your "Just
try to fix it all" and applied the basic boot to the behind to
that. :-)

Actually, I haven't made up my mind about government gambling games.  
Like you, I'm not especially happy having MY government becoming a 
major marketer of gambling games that basically exploit the weak. 
(I generally hope to have public services HELP people rather than 
damage them.)

On the other hand, raising public funds through various voluntary
gambling games has always seemed like a "stupidity tax" to me,
and since I'll never have to pay it, it is as close to a perfect
tax as I can imagine!

I hesitate to guess what "us all" might be learning from all this.
(I don't expect taxation to have an "educational" function anyway.)
Surely some people may be introduced to numeracy by learning
about gambling games.  Perhaps we should think of these games
as lessons in applied mathematics, and you pass the course when
you stop playing.

By the way, belated apologies to my friends "overseas", as some of
this discussion is probably of little interest outside the USA.
Actually, I have no idea at all if how relevant these things are
elsewhere.  As a patriotic American, I'm not allowed to even
care!  :-)

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:52:29 GMT

In article <H6gVXB4w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us>,
system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>>What he said was that the astronauts never went to the moon, and his
>>>reason was that the moon is impossible to reach by mankind's present
>>>technology,
>> 
>> Well, was he right?
> 
> The astronauts certainly never went to the planet Chandraloka as it is
> described in the Vedas. This planet, whose name is commonly translated
> as "the Moon," is populated by intelligent living beings in an advanced
> state of civilization, and is not reachable by ordinary mechanical
> means.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Kalki Dasa

   So what you're saying is that this Vedic commentator couldn't keep a 
visit to the moon, which is reachable by physical means, from getting 
confused with a trip to a part of his mythology.  Sounds like he needs
professional help to me.

   If I translate "Huy Breasal" from Celtic as "South Carolina" does that 
mean you have to ask some Elf before you can post?  No?  Hmmm...

Dan
Danwell@IASTATE.EDU
From: system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:23:16 EST
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

> In article <TBiqXB3w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.tr
> >What he said was that the astronauts never went to the moon, and his
> >reason was that the moon is impossible to reach by mankind's present
> >technology,
> 
> Well, was he right?

The astronauts certainly never went to the planet Chandraloka as it is
described in the Vedas. This planet, whose name is commonly translated
as "the Moon," is populated by intelligent living beings in an advanced
state of civilization, and is not reachable by ordinary mechanical
means.

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa


       ---------------------------------------------------------
      |                Don't forget to chant:                   |
      |                                                         |
      |  Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |       Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare          |
      |                                                         |
      |    Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA      |
      |           (kalki@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us)           |
       ---------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22821 alt.atheism:26967
From: gtclark@festival.ed.ac.uk (G T Clark)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Eve Mitochondia?
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:42:28 GMT


	If this is possible to receive mitochondria from more than one
source, then the strains will compete with each other.This is,I believe,
well-documented in European house-mice.As far as I can see,we have
therefore got a situation where the 'fitter' mitochondria will tend to
drive out all others in the population.Also,this will happen rather
faster than changes in nuclear DNA.So,as far as I can tell,the fact that
all human mitochondria seem to have a common ancestor X million years
ago, actually tells us rather little about the number or nature of women
(or men) that were around then.


		G.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Krishnas, Vedas, and all that (was: TM debunking needed)
Organization: LLNL
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:33:21 GMT

In article <B2iqXB5w165w@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us> system@kalki33.lakes.trenton.sc.us (Kalki Dasa) writes:
>wright@duca.hi.com (David Wright) writes:
>
:  >   The Vedic account of our planetary system is already researched,
:  >   concluded, and perfect. The _Vedas_ state that the moon is 800,000
:  >   miles _farther_ from earth than the sun. 
>
>Actually, the Vedas state that the Moon is 800,000 miles HIGHER than the
>Sun, in the plane of the Bhu-mandala system, not that it is farther away
>in terms of linear distance.

	What's the "Bhu-mandala system"?

	And is the Moon _closer_ in linear distance, or isn't it?

:  This is just too beautiful.  One wonders just how the Vedas account
:  for solar eclipses.

>Eclipses are explained as the result of the planet Rahu passing
>between the sun and the earth, or the moon and the earth. In modern
>astronomy, the planet Rahu is identified as the moon's ascending node,
>which is indeed in line with the sun-moon-earth system during an
>eclipse.

	There is no such thing as a planet separate from the Moon that
causes eclipses. Either the Moon covers up the Sun or the Earth shades
the Moon. This happens when the Moon is near its line of nodes, where
its orbit plane intersects the Earth's orbit plane (the ecliptic). At
other times, the Moon's shadow misses the Earth and the Moon misses
the Earth's shadow, as the case may be.

	Solar Eclipse:

	Sun		Moon	Earth

	Lunar Eclipse:

	Sun			Earth	Moon

	That is why solar eclipses occur only during New Moon and
lunar eclipses only during Full Moon. What more can anyone ask for?
-- 
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/lip@s1.gov
From: alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Glub Glub... Any Floods in Human History?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:29:49 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1993Jan22.013809.7159@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
|
|	And the worst part of these catastrophic floods:
|....
|	The first writing known is from the neighborhood of the
|Eastern Mediterranean, which is rather far from any of the Pleistocene
|continental glaciers. The Northern European glacier is a borderline
|case at best, while the North American glacier is out of the question
|as regards contacts. I've never heard of any evidence of big floods
|caused by bursting ice dams in Europe, like those in North America and
|the Altai Mountains, but I wouldn't complain about being wrong ;-)
|
|	Furthermore, the writing occurs too late by 5 millennia (~3000
|BCE in Egypt and Mesopotamia) and the knowledge of geography and
|history it shows is strictly local. There is some older writing-like
|markings in the Balkan Neolithic, but that has not been deciphered (if
|it is writing) [see Gimbutas, _The Civilization of the Goddess_, for

See:   _Ice Age Earth - Late Quaternary Geology and Climate_,
       Alastair G. Dawson, Routledge, London, 1992

This book I quoted in an earlier post describes catastrophic flooding
due to glacial outbursts in Scandinavia (the Baltic Ice Lake), the
Caspian Sea region, and parts of Siberia, as well as North America.
This is apparently an active field of research.  Some people have
proposed that the Caspian Sea region flooding, rather than
Mesopotamian flooding, gave rise to the earliest Flood legends.
The dating of the last floods is just late enough to be tantalizing.

Alan Feuerbacher
alanf@atlas.pen.tek.com

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic