HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: BART vs. CalTrain speeds
Organization: LLNL
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 11:51:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.010448.8754@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.233045.1834@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
:|: On its outlying parts, like the Fremont or the Concord lines, BART
:|: easily outspeeds CalTrain.
:
:Not in practice.  Let's take a look at BART along the Fremont line:
:
:FROM         TO             MILES  STOPS  MI/STOP  MIN  AVG MPH
:~~~~~~~      ~~~~~~~~~~~~   ~~~~~  ~~~~~  ~~~~~~~  ~~~  ~~~~~~~
:Fremont      Oakland West   22.9    9     2.5      41   33.5
:Fremont      Coliseum       16.6    6     2.8      27   36.9

	Where did you get that distance figure from?

	Here's my clocking of BART on the Fremont line:

	It is 14 miles between the Bay Fair and the Lake Merritt
stations, an estimate that I got from a mileage value listed for a
nearby freeway segment on a road map. Clocking the trip, it usually
takes about 15 minutes or so to make the trip. The average speed:
about 60 mph.

	Adding the trip to Fremont does not change the average speed
too much.

	In my experience traveling to and from Berkeley, the part of
the line underneath Oakland is a major slow spot; this is what
accounts for the lowered average speed.

:Now some comparable CalTrain segments for comparison:
:
:FROM         TO             MILES  STOPS  MI/STOP  MIN  AVG MPH
:~~~~~~~~~    ~~             ~~~~~  ~~~~~  ~~~~~~~  ~~~  ~~~~~~~
:San Jose     Menlo Park*    18.0    7     2.6      29   37.2
:Menlo Park   San Carlos      5.7    3     1.9      10   34.2
:
:* SJ-MP segment skips College Park & Castro (common practice)

	Since the areas that CalTrain serves in San Mateo County are
roughly comparable to the areas served by BART's Richmond, Concord,
and Fremont lines, BART would presumably have a similar type of line
and station spacing, with the attendant average speed of ~60 mph.

	Thus, a BART train will whiz by a CalTrain one.

	But if CalTrain is to achieve BART-like performance, it will
need all-new rolling stock. All the locomotives would have to be
replaced by electric ones, and if that does not produce very quick
acceleration and stopping, then it may be necessary to acquire MU
cars. These would be something like the BART cars, but powered from
overhead cables. I've actually ridden some such cars that belonged to
SEPTA and NJ Transit. They've been running for the last couple of
decades now, and I don't know of any recent orders for such cars.

	Also necessary will be putting in some Continuous Welded Rail
(BART already has CWR), and also upgrades to the signaling.

	So upgrading CalTrain to BART-like performance will not be as
simple as Adrian Brandt seems to think.

Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR)
Subject: Re: East Bay -> Silicon Valley commute
Summary: Not quite 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Distribution: usa
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:56:37 GMT

In article <9208121507.AA01027@asia.fai.com>, vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wol writes...
>>From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)

>The point that you and many others are trying unsuccessfully to assert 
>that frequency is such an important consideration that all others
>are inconsequential.

That is close, but not quite. The important thing to get people out of
their cars is convienence. Frequency is a very important part of that
equation. If you have to plan your schedual around the train frequency
then it isn't convienent. It's that simple.


>worthless. CalTrain can be upgraded to provide whatever frequency is
>needed at a speed greater than BART's with more seats at lower cost.

But CalTrain doesn't run NEARLY as many places that people need to
go as BART does. It will take over a billion dollars to get to 
1st and Mission from Townsend street. That's not pocket change.
But most importantly until CalTrain runs where people need to go,
it's still not convienent enough.

>The reality is( if you look beyond the Bay area) that systems exist
>in this country and others that carry more people than BART at lower
>cost some with better frequency and some with worse.
> 
I won't argue this point. I was in Paris recently, and their system 
put's BART to shame. Of course their inter-city rail system puts
CalTrain to shame as well.
> 
>>The other is that you
>>may want to make sure that you don't have to wait 20 minutes for a
>>train.  I frequently use a schedule when taking BART for just those
>>reasons.  But I have to agree that you don't need one (given that you
>>don't need to make connections) the same way that you do with Caltrain.

I don't get on the train at the same time every day, and the frequency
comes in very handy to me. Many times I can't plan exactly when I'll
get on the train. You must take into account people with flexible
scheduals
> 
>For the same reason you do not need one for CalTrain. For the same 
>trip every day you know when to meet you train. Once you know the
>half hourly times the train departs your stations you do not need
>to check a schedule.
> 
Some people don't want to plan their travel around half-hours.
> 
>>create a new group ba.bartvscaltrain?

Yes
> 
>Your correct ofcourse. I underestimated the emotionalism surrounding 
>BART and the total inability of its followers to consider alternatives.
>Actually the only reason I used CalTrain is because it so obviously
>less modern and less expensive. It has become so repetitive because
>the followers have no real data to support their undestanding.
> 
>   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com

Your ability to underestimate your fellow man is truely breath-taking.

Garrett@Ingres.com

Disclaimer: My opinions do not reflect those of my company.
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
Subject: Re: RR bridges, was Cost of transit systems vs highways
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:51:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.224134.6500@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
> In article <1992Aug18.202013.11210@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug18.155217.28486@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
> >|> In article <1992Aug18.035549.4394@redsox.bsw.com>, campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
> >|> > (Boston's Green Line uses both Boeing LRVs (yuck) and newer Kinki LRVs
> >|> > (very nice, except that the air conditioning is too loud and sometimes
> >|> > too effective). Both go 50 MPH.)
> >|> 
> >|> I find it extraordinary that one can have air conditioning that is
> >|> 'too effective'.  Are you sure about that?  Did it get the interior
> >|> below 50F?
> >
> >What's so extraordinary?
> >
> >Many would even find 65F too cold when dressed for a 90+F day, for example.
> 
> Would that busses and whatnot *would* get down to 65F.  You *can't*
> 'dress for 90+F'.  You can UNdress for it--if you like hot weather,
> but *not* 'dress' for it . . .
> 
> 	--Hal
> -- 
> Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
> Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
> 510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare

I sympathize with the original poster.  I prefer buses and LRT with
no A/C, unless it's hotter than 90 degrees.  The A/C is typically
quite loud, and adjusted too cold to be comfortable.  BART A/C is
usually quiet and well adjusted, so it's not too bad.  Besides,
open windows in subways usually mean ear-splitting noise when
traversing a curve.  I could never ride the Red line in Boston on
a regular basis because of all the squealing.  I also found the
squealing on the Portland LRT unpleasant in those areas along I-84
where there were concrete walls on either side.  Of course, buses
with overly loud brakes aren't pleasant either.

jeremy
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: East Bay -> Silicon Valley commute
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:07:00 GMT



>From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)

In article <9207301507.AA00347@asia.fai.com>, vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe) writes:
>> People wait for infrequent airplanes, that doesn't seem to stop them
>> from flying. Besides if BART riders "don't need" schedules then why
>> did BART start printing them?

>From: jeremy@classic.asd.sgi.com (Jeremy Higdon)
>I'm sorry, but that is a silly response that does little to strengthen
>your position.  Waiting for things that you do infrequently is more
>acceptable than waiting for things that you do frequently.  That should
>be obvious.


The point that you and many others are trying unsuccessfully to assert 
that frequency is such an important consideration that all others
are inconsequential. With the additional reach of logic that since 
BART is more frequent then an upgraded CalTrain or any other service 
is not possible or that it must conform to 15 minute headways. Some 
are even trying to assert that no other service can run as frequently 
as BART without BART costs.

This is simply not true. Depending on how far you must go and how much
you must pay(to mention just a couple items) it doesn't matter a damn
how often it runs. If it takes 3 hours(exaggeration) to get to work or
if it cost too much that you can't afford to ride then frequency is
worthless. CalTrain can be upgraded to provide whatever frequency is
needed at a speed greater than BART's with more seats at lower cost.
The reality is( if you look beyond the Bay area) that systems exist
in this country and others that carry more people than BART at lower
cost some with better frequency and some with worse.



>The other is that you
>may want to make sure that you don't have to wait 20 minutes for a
>train.  I frequently use a schedule when taking BART for just those
>reasons.  But I have to agree that you don't need one (given that you
>don't need to make connections) the same way that you do with Caltrain.


For the same reason you do not need one for CalTrain. For the same 
trip every day you know when to meet you train. Once you know the
half hourly times the train departs your stations you do not need
to check a schedule.




>But this is hardly a new revelation to this group.  Is it my imagination
>or do we seem to cover the same territory over and over?  Should we
>create a new group ba.bartvscaltrain?


Your correct ofcourse. I underestimated the emotionalism surrounding 
BART and the total inability of its followers to consider alternatives.
Actually the only reason I used CalTrain is because it so obviously
less modern and less expensive. It has become so repetitive because
the followers have no real data to support their undestanding.



   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
From: mdr@ocf.berkeley.edu (Mike Rogoff)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: AirBART shuttle question ...
Date: 17 Aug 1992 18:35:34 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: locusts.berkeley.edu

  I have to fly out of Oakland airport soon, and I was wondering if
anyone knew any details or had any experience with the Shuttle that
goes from BART to the Airport.  I think it's called AirBART, and I
think it operates out of the Coliseum station.  Besides that, I know
nothing.  Can someone help?  Specifically, is it effective, how much
does it cost, does it require reservations, how often does it run, 
is there a limit on your luggage, that kind of thing?  Thanks a bunch...

Mike      mdr@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: ben@sybase.com (Benjamin von Ullrich)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: Stop Smoking .
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:01:03 GMT
Organization: sybase, inc., emeryville-across-from-SF, ca

In article <Bt3Kww.3xx@sti.com> coyote@sti.com (Ron Lussier) writes:
|>If this isn't enough for you, then commit terrorist acts.
				    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...]
|>When I'm in a more aggressive
|>mood, I'll yell at people for throwing lit cigarettes on the ground [...]
 	    ^^^^
|>Peace,
|>Ron

It's that "P" word there near the bottom that gets me.  goes well with the
harmonious nature of the article, yes?
--
..ben
------
Benjamin von Ullrich		 only i do the talking here -- not my employer.
ben@sybase.com			       {pyramid,pacbell,sun,lll-tis}!sybase!ben
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Northern Exposure
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:34:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.152845.10985@pcnntp.apple.com> (Craig Webb) writes:
>With all due respect, please take your pinot grigio and place it where 
>you would most enjoy it.  Your personal desires are not important to me.
>Issues that endanger our very lives are.  Relative to smoking, your 
>consciousness is right on target.  But with so many important issues at
>stake, why not avoid the smokey places and channel your intellect into
>objectives that can improve the quality of life for all gays and lesbians.

I don't know whether to stomp on this twit or ignore him.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Oregon
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 03:16:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: ca

In article <1992Aug20.163009.28714@queernet.org> max@queernet.org (Max 
J. Rochlin) writes:
>
>Also, irregardless isn't a word.

Sure it is.  It's in my American Heritage Dictionary.  It's in my Webster's
New World Dictionary.  I'd be very surprised if it's not in the Oxford
English Dictionary.


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: swirsky@adobe.com (Robert Swirsky)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Bank Of America
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:09:52 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Robert A. Swirsky

A front page article on today's Chronicle revealed that B of A
has decided to fund the BSA again, claiming that BSA has changed its
policy and will now allow all boys in.

I called the Santa Clara County B.S.A. and asked "Have you changed your
policy?" They said "Don't worry," (assuming I was a Concerned Parent) "our
Policy remains unchanged."

The Chronicle article also indicated that the Boy Scouts have not
changed their policy.

If this upsets you, you may want to call Bank of America at
622-3456 (415) and tell them how you feel.
From:  (Craig Webb)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: Oregon
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:33:21 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc

Steve,

I don't want to argue semantics.  In fact, one reason I post here is not to
argue at all.  Dumb.

My dream may be unrealistic, but I cannot stop seeing it's vision; That of
a group of oppressed people (ah) sharing relatively the same agenda, given
it's context.  I step back, look at the big picture.  Search for value.
Yearn for liberty.

I have made a friend of rudeness for sheer survival.  I get very mad.  I
still have much to learn.

Appreciate your explanatory posting.  Thanks.


\aliscafo/
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: The melody lingers on
Date: 21 Aug 92 01:39:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug20.033143.10308@morrow.stanford.edu> 
AT.PLC@forsythe.stanford.edu (PCURRY (415)723-0730) writes:

>Did I mis-remember a melody, or tonight while George, Barbara, and
>all the little Bushes were standing on the podium, did the band
>jubilantly play over and over a song from "La Cage aux Folles"?

*I* had better things to do than listen to the Republican National
Convention, like wash dishes, but I heard on the radio later (probably NPR)
that that's what they were playing.  Maybe we have a plant in Houston. 


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: AS.ALH@forsythe.stanford.edu (andrew harker)
Subject: Re: BofA reverses BSA stand
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:30:36 GMT

For those people who have BofA accounts, one possible
idea is to close the account at BofA, letting them know
why you are doing so, and announcing that you are
going to open one at Wells Fargo which appears to have
more backbone.

Although I do not have an account with either bank, my
credit union lets me use ATMs at either (giving them a
fee for the use).  As such, I will not use BofA ATMs if
I have any choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
andrew harker                       "I've learned my lesson;
financial analyst                    I'm a better person.
government rate analysis             I'm filled up with high hopes
stanford university                  And fed up with soft souls.
(415) 723-8072                       Long in the tooth,
ANDREW.HARKER@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU  And short on wisdom ...
                                               - Trashcan Sinatras
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: GRANDPA WALTON: Is he gay?  Help please....
Organization: QueerNet
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 18:47:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.160910.826@ecst.csuchico.edu> dgwelton@ecst.csuchico.edu (David G. Welton) writes:
>
>In a speech a few days ago Bush said:
> 
>[He'd like] "to make American families a lot more like the Walton's
> and less like the Simpson's."
> 
>Well I seem to recall that the actor Will Geer, who played Grandpa
>Zeb Walton, has come out and proclaimed he is gay. Is this fact
>or urban legend?
> 
>I'm writing an article about the Convention and would love to
>be able to add this little tidbit...if I can substantiate it.
> 
>Can you help?

Absolute, definite fact (although in this age, it's not clear if he would have
identified as gay, bisexual, or -- consistent with his politics -- simply
queer).  He was, among other things, Harry Hay's lover.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG                 {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: B of A reverses stand on Boy Scouts
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:44:42 GMT

Probably many of you have heard, but just in case, I thought I would
summarize this article from today's S.F. Chronicle.

Bank of America has decided to resume donations to Boy Scouts of America.
They deny that this had anything to do with public (Republican) pressure.
BofA spokesperson Peter Magnini is quoted to the effect that BSA talked
to BofA and convinced BofA that while BSA discriminates against gay
scout leaders, they do not discriminate against gay children (members)
and are open to all boys who suscribe to the Scout oath.  "Our understanding
is that scouting is open to all boys - including gay boys" said Magnani.

This was contradicted by BSA spokesman Blake Lewis, who, according to
the article, stated that the phrase "morally straight" in the Scout oath
specifically means "not homosexual", and that gay youths are "not eligible"
to be Scouts.  Representatives of Wells Fargo Bank and Levi Strauss
company also disputed Bank of America's claim about BSA being open to
gay children, and said that their respective companies have no intention of
emulating BofA's reversal.  Mary Gross, Levi Strauss spokesperson,
is quoted as saying "[BSA wrote us that] 'The Boy Scouts of America
does not accept homosexuals as members or leaders'."

Ken McPherson, spokesman for Forgotten Scouts, is quoted speculating that
B of A is letting itself be duped by BSA.

[Ed:  It sounds to me as if BofA has indeed been duped, if only by its own
wishful thinking and desire to escape controversy, and that it could still
be convinced of the truth (which is that (a) BSA does discriminate, but
regardless, (b) BSA's real crime IMHO is is that it promotes general
intolerance of, and self-hatred among, gay youth, making it a negative and
undesirable organization to support with BofA customer money).
I'd suggest writing BofA letters that are rational and at least somewhat
polite (vs.  hate mail).  Could someone please re-post the appropriate
addresses.]

Jeff
From: black@lester.sybase.com (Christina Black])
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Dive Master Wanted
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:15:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.195818.6556@morrow.stanford.edu>, AS.ALH@forsythe.stanford.edu (andrew harker) writes:
+ It would be nice to go down with
                              ^^^^
+ a gay Master, but an experienced one, with a good recommendation,
+ will do in a pinch.

Funny thing, most of my friends would have chosen a different
preposition.

-- Chris
black@sybase.com
Newsgroups: ba.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Oregon
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 02:03:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: ca

In article <DEUTSCH.92Aug18172328@luxembourg.SMLI.Eng.Sun.COM> 
deutsch@SMLI.Eng.Sun.COM (L. Peter Deutsch) writes:
>
>I'd like to back off from the personalities and agree with some of the
>intent of the original posting, namely, to call attention to the fact that
>something very threatening to important aspects of our lives is being put
>to a vote in Oregon, and that it's worth spending some time discussing how
>best to influence the outcome.

I'd like to agree, but I don't.  If the original poster had spent any time
looking around on the net, he would have seen that the OCA has been widely
discussed.  

Yes, the OCA is important, but that doesn't mean that nothing else is
important.  The poster's apparent insistence that Oregon is the *only*
topic worth discussion strikes me as fanaticism, and I do like it.

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: wbs@mred.llnl.gov (William B. Schaefer IV)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: BofA reverses BSA stand
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:45:42 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Read in the SF Cron today that BofA has "reversed" its decision to stop
funding the BSA.  There was some drivel about BSA assuring BofA that the
group was open to "all" boys, and that this was enough for BofA.  I guess 
that discrimination against adults (scoutmasters) is OK though...

My first reaction was: "Well time to close that BofA account".  But then
I thought that this is exactly what the fundies did. Wouldn't it be a form
of extortion? Hmmmmm. Well, I would be withdrawing my account because of a
proactive event, ie an action that was taken by BofA.  Whereas the fundies
were withdrawing because of something that BofA did NOT do (that they of
course wanted).  So I guess I can withdraw my account without being a
hypocrite...

wbs
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: ba.motss
Subject: Re: GRANDPA WALTON: Is he gay?  Help please....
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:05:20 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Aug19.160910.826@ecst.csuchico.edu> dgwelton@ecst.csuchico.edu (David G. Welton) writes:

>Well I seem to recall that the actor Will Geer, who played Grandpa
>Zeb Walton, has come out and proclaimed he is gay. Is this fact
>or urban legend?

Not only was Will Geer (Greer?) a homosexual he was a big communist.
You can read all about him in the book on Harry Hay, who was a friend/associate
of Greer.

FWA
Newsgroups: ba.motss