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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Carson McCullers (was boring -)

Thank you, yes that was the name I was looking for. "A Tree, A Rock, A Cloud"
was a very good story. And although I did not bring up Flannery O'Conner, I
can understand her name coming up because Carson McCuller and Flannery
O'Conner both have the same ring to their names, they sound similar and they
are often together in the short story books and I too often group them
together in my mind. Aren't they also both Southern writers? "A Good Man is
Hard to Find" is certainly an unforgettable story. And why do you think Carson
McCullers is boring? Melanie.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 07:35:46 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Re[2]: Graham Greene, modern poetry
Comments: To: VIAEM105@SIVM.BITNET, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          It seems to me that all prose can be scanned, but it is only
          worth it if this or that phrase moves us in some way that is
          worth investigating.  Auden said that poetry is "memorable
          speech."  Looking through Bartlett's I see that most
          memorable lines from literature, Ben Franklin, the
          Declaration, speeches of presidents, etc. can and should be
          scanned in order to determine why they work.  It helps to
          know, for instance, the various rhetorical devices that
          Kennedy used in his speeches.  I had a teacher in college
          who had a friend working as a speech writer in Washington.
          He said it was not uncommon for them to scan lines as if
          they were poetry.  They would often know the meter of a
          closing phrase, for instance, before knowing its content.
          "We need a trochee to end this line."  Certain rhythms are
          known to produce certain emotional reactions in audiences.
          I think it is true that some people have a natural ear for
          such things in prose, but more often than not in good
          fiction I think it is deliberate.
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:38:23 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

On Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:05:12 EDT Tim Johnson said:
>>I don't much care about  anyone's love life but my own.
>>But I Think it very rash to assume that Newton et al.
>>lovelife have less relevance to their work than
>> a poet's .. Isn't that presuming a lot?
>
>  Perhaps it is presuming a lot.  I'll take it
>all back if you can explain to me how understanding
>Newton's love life will give you insight into
>Classical Mechanics or Calculus.
>
Oh, come now!  Are you saying that the attraction between 2 bodies has nothing
to do with classical mechanics?  :-)
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:04:56 EDT
From:         Jackie Vanwilligen <JVANW01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

I don't much care about  anyone's love life but my own.  But I Think it very ra
sh to assume that Newton et al. lovelife have less relevance to their work than
 a poet's .. Isn't that presuming a lot?
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:08:10 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Beginning Faulkner
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Date:          Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:30:54 EST
> From:          LESLIER@USCN.BITNET

>              Are there any present newcomers to Faulkner out there
> who could make suggestions about what it is like to read Faulkner
> for the first time?  Or any others who remember being in that
> situation?

Many years ago, I was steered to Faulkner by an enthusiast, and urged
to read _As I Lay Dying_ as the first.  I think it may be one of the
easiest to read; and though its plot line is on the morbid side
(appropriate for "elders"?), its humor does something to atone for
that.
                                                    --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:12:05 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: McCullers
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Date:          Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:03:30 CST
> From:          Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
> Subject:       Re: Byatt babble, becoming boring, n this, people

> I most definitely agree with mbmcdonald.  Has anybody read _The Heart is a
 Lone
> ly Hunter_ ?                  Melanie
>

I think I started it & wasn't too captivated.  But I did much enjoy
McCullers' _Reflections in a Golden Eye_.  Have you read that?
                                                 --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:01:16 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      prose and poetry

>                                                   Many prose writers, by
>the way, consider the unwittingly intrusive poems in their prose to be some-
>thing of an albatross. When you think your prose sounds especially high, fine,
>and noble, chances are quite good that its rhythm is ti-tum,ti-tum,ti-tum &c.

        Samuel Beckett said that he wrote in French first, because English was t
too poetic a language; by writing in French he could keep out some of the inad-
vertant poems.
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 15:15:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: poetic diction, prose vs. poetry

Millie, thanks for the clarifying post.  I agree that Mrs Dalloway is more
poetic than most poetry!  Interesting that you mentioned this work, since
I will be teaching it toward the end of this semester to a group of students
who are taking my class to fulfill a humanities requirement (no English
majors), and I'm a little worried that I won't be able to help them *see*
that Woolf's poetic prose offers them some things that more traditional
novels do not.

Since Whitman is one of my heroes, I'm glad that you weren't quite able to use
him as an example of poetry that is really masquerading prose.  If nothing
else, we need to remember that Whitman was the first Western poet to
break radically with the dominant metric line, a move that even Ezra Pound,
who in many ways loathed Whitman and WW's *influence*, called the "first
heave" toward Modernism.

Michael Bruce McDonald (a mc, but you can call me mac if it pleases you)
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:51:15 EDT
From:         "ruth s. smith" <V2164A@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      bros. karamazov

I tried sending a message to Tim but don't know if it worked so here goes again
I want to thank everyone who responded to my posting.  I agree, I was a little
too hasty in my comments about the relevance of this book to today.  Actually,
now I can't seem to put the book down.  It reminds me of when I read Hardy - it
was depressing but it drew me in.  My copy does not list a translator.  In fact
there isn't even a date when it was published.  It was published; however, by
Grosset and Dunlap and I purchased it about 35 years ago.  Father Zossima said
that he bowed down to Dmitri because he saw how much he was going to suffer.
Everyone in this book is suffering.  I guess I will have to continue reading to
find out why Dmitri was singled out.  The person who commented on Tim's respons
e was absolutely right - we need more of that to get people interested in readi
ng.
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:55:37 CDT
From:         "John Coryell." <jcoryell@NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

>From:    Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD
>Yes, I agree that the best poetry has rythms or at least sounds that support
>the conceit or just the mood, kind of like strong bones. Still, I'm not sure
>that a poem HAS to be that way. Someone mentioned cummings. He is well known
>for the only successful Eng versions of that French hybrid form, the prose poem
>(which I admittedly know little about). What about that? Is it still poetry or
>not?

This seems a little extreme of a statement, that cummings made the ONLY
successful forays into that method; also, if I'm not mistaken, he's not
known for his "prose poetry", but his %concrete% poetry, which is what
a poem like "Grasshopper" (yes, rearranged, I don't remember the exact
order of the letters, sorry) is in truth, lacking any cadence or rhythm
at all; I think John Hollander has also worked in this mode.

For a few prose poems worth looking at, I'd suggest Williams' _Kora In
Hell (Improvisations)_ for something contemporary with cummings, Stein's
_Tender Buttons_ (a pinnacle of sorts), and Ashbery's _Three Poems_,
though the latter can be very frustrating.

John Coryell.
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:13:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: McCullers

Jackie, I do indeed love Merchant/Ivory films.  *Howards End* is just too
good for words, for instance.  I'll have to check out *Shakespeare Wallah*;
thanks for the tip.

michael bmcd
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:06:10 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Carson McCullers (was boring -)

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: gs0383%springb.bitnet@siucvmb.siu.e

Melanie mentioned one title by this author, and I think, if
it's the one with the woman fighting the dwarf, I dropped
out early, but -

There was a story done by her called _A Good Man Is Hard
To Find_ which was absolutely the most shocking I have
ever read.  It's about nostalgia, and family tradition
and ritual and destiny and manipulation by the elders in
the tribe, but -

When you read a horror story, you look on the cover and you
are prepared, there's a lurking looney or a bloody knife,
but this is all Sweet Home Alabama, lamenting by Grandma
that the old ways are passing, a rural progress down a
country highway by rustics.

It happens.  Maybe that's what's scary about it.  I read about
it in the papers.  But when it's brought up close for you to
see, it's terrifying, and Ms McCullers brings this family up
stage center for your perusal.  You'll maybe wish she
hadn't.

You'll need some O. Henry afterwards...
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:16:09 EDT
From:         Jackie Vanwilligen <JVANW01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: McCullers

Do you love Merchant Ivory films? I have never seen sad cafe, wish I couldfind
it.  They are the only people who don't seem to muck up the details. One of the
 first conversations I ever had with my husband was about Shakespeare Wallah.
Since then the hill stations of India have been intriqueing settings for us.
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Posted-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 19:10:47 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:10:47 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      O'Connor
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	Joy/Hulga in "Good Country People" does get her comeuppance, but I
still feel sorry for her because her attitude in the first place was based
on her insecurity--her sense of superiority is so fragile. She really is
counting on the bible salesman to be a good Christian.
	In "Everything that Rises Must Converge" (a title I'm still not sure
I understand), the justice that is dealt out is very complex--it would have
to be, considering all of the ironies of the story. The son is a Joy/Hulga
type who abhors his mother as a prejudiced woman, lost in dreams of an
aristocratic past. She is prejudiced, but it turns out it's more the son
who is lost in that past, and his prejudice is just a different kind. The
 mother gets what's coming to her, in a sense, when she offers the black
child a nickel (?) and gets a purse swung at her head. I don't want to give'
it all away, but in that one the final sentence pronounces an almost prophetic
judment upon the son.
	I remember the story about the baptism, but can't name it. I do remember
the short novel _Wise Blood_. Church without Christ was it? There's a kinship
to the American grotesque of Nathanael West in _Miss Lonelyhearts_.  At
moments, the recent film _Barton Fink_ had a little of it too.
	"A Good Man is Hard to Find" is very funny and very awful both, with
a complex ending that is wondeful to ponder and discuss. When the grandmother
reaches out to The Misfit (the killer), is she pleading for her life? Hallu-
cinating? Or is she experiencing a kind of illumination? "You're one of my
children," or something like that, she says.
	There isn't a story that doesn't have some special and wonderful
figure of speech-not ornamental but strikingly revelatory. Every one of them
has funny moments. Hulga's mother has one speech composed entirely of cliches
that is very funny, as are her conversations with her neighbor.
	Imagine a film of "A Good Man is Hard to Find" (maybe it's already
been done)-- even today it is rare to see anything that contemporary, with
its comic grotesque family and murder in ordinary light. The near-surrealism
and the bizarre disjunctivenes of her work are probably underestimated because
she is in print, not film, and because of the connotations of "southern writer"
of an earlier time.
	Michael McColl
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:07:45 CST
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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: McCullers

Tom, I haven't read _Reflections in a Golden Eye_ but I have read a few of
Carson McCuller's short stories. There's one--and I hate to say I forgot the
title--about a coffee shop or a busstop or something like that, where there's
a man who is talking to strangers about some revelations he's had. I know
that's really vague, but I can't remember much more except that it left me
with a good feeling. All her stuff that I've read has left me feeling that
way. She seems to have a way of making the ordinary into something special,
seeing the miraculous in life. I wish someone more informed than me would jump
in here. Wasn't she really young to be a writer? I seem to remember her dying
young too. Tell me if I'm wrong.Melanie.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:20:00 EDT
From:         Jane L Hyde <EILDONS@UNC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Poetry Slams, modern poetry

      Hi.  Alan and Ginger Wolf have been hosting poetry slams
in Asheville, NC, for several months now and hope to send
slammers to national competitions.  I've been to two and have
mixed reactions.  On the one hand, the level of *poetry* tends
to be pretty low (probably why the phenomenon arouses disdain
in academic breasts).  The emphasis tends to be on performance,
though the deliveries range from throwing oneself across the
stage (seems to be popular with the audience) to straight
delivery (needs better poetry, no?).  What I DO like about these
event is that people are actually coming out to listen to the
spoken word.  in a passive, TV era, I think that's pretty
 neat.  Lots of tenagers come.  The place is very attractive --
 in an alley, dimly lit, simply but comfortably furnished,
 beer and sof drinks served, all ages welcome (and all ages
 come).  I say, let 'em slam -- hooray for the spoken word.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:38:11 EDT
From:         cam2h@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU
Subject:      both sound dumb
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Dear Tim and Melanie,
I can't tell which of you is dumber because both your names have
an "m" in them.
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:05:14 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

>        My point was that Byatt's underlying messages include one saying that
>we shouldn't judge the importance or lack thereof of an individual based on
>his gifts to posterity.  Because someone's work is trivial, it doesn't mean
>that his/her life is trivial.  And that has nothing to do with the scholar's
>motivations.  Judge Ash for himself, not by the people who study him.
>        Ian

  One way we can judge the importance of Ash is by the resources
and lives mustered to study him and keep him alive for posterity.
That's an obvious measure.  What is not obvious, however, is what
those people see in Ash that makes him worth spending all that
time and money studying in minute detail.  What do the scholars
hope to gain?  I'm sure Ash lead a fine life, and was a good man,
but is that the only qualification necessary to have future lives
devoted to to his?  Lots of folks come and go, and as you say, just
because the tangible output of their lives is trivial doesn't mean
that we should judge their lives as trivial....  But why do we
study Ash and not, say, his tailor.  What makes him worth studying?
  I would have been inclined to phrase your statement the opposite
way - just because someone's work is interesting, it doesn't mean
that his/her life is worth scrutinizing in painful detail.
  What does dead Randolph Henry Ash have to offer the world that
a billion other living folks don't have?  (Besides, perhaps, closure.)
  I have much less difficulty recognizing the value of studying his
second rate poetry than studying his rather ordinary life...collecting
his signet ring, his walking stick, his pocket watch...fragments of
drafts of personal correspondence...walking the same paths he did....

                                       -Tim
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:10:00 EDT
From:         Jennifer A Richards <JARICH@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      McCullers' age, Cafe story

Yes, Carson McCullers was young when she wrote and when she died.
She wrote -The Heart is a Lonely Hunter- when she was only 23.  She
died in her forties from a disease - can't remember what.  The short
story referred to was -The ballad of the sad cafe- which was recently
made into a movie.  One of her books that I particularly liked was
-A Member of the Wedding- which was also made into a movie - very well
done.  Most of her writing leaves me sad, however, not with a "good
feeling."
- Jennifer R.
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:42:10 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

. . . why do they spend their lives investigating Ash's honesty and integrity
rather than their own? . . . Why do poets read other people's poetry rather
than writing their own?
        My point was that Byatt's underlying messages include one saying that
we shouldn't judge the importance or lack thereof of an individual based on
his gifts to posterity.  Because someone's work is trivial, it doesn't mean
that his/her life is trivial.  And that has nothing to do with the scholar's
motivations.  Judge Ash for himself, not by the people who study him.
        Ian
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