From: dtinker@blunile.guild.org (David O. Tinker)
Subject: Re: Emergence again...
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:12:35 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Blue Nile Software -- Markham Ont. Canada

rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) writes:
> 
> Before I read David Tinker's contribution, I almost stepped into the
> "emergent" quagmire.  I then debated for a while whether or not I
> wanted to respond to David's message.  I just decided against it when
> lo and behold I came across this:
> 
> In article <ZHLDuB3w165w@kalki33> kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes:
> 
> >The game "life" is not life, that is why you put quotes around "living"
> >and "dead". Actual life displays properties which are not reducible to
> >the interactions of elementary physical quantities. The game of "life"
> >is entirely reducible to its rules, boundary, and initial conditions.
> 
> David (i.e. dtinker@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (David O. Tinker)) previously
>   wrote in <BxK6o0.Dr9@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>:
> 
> }First, I do not think there is a satisfactory closed definition of the term
> }"emergent", nor is it universally used by the research school most concerned
> }with such properties, the 'Artificial Life' community.  Nevertheless I
> }believe the concept is so well accepted in this community that the term can
> }be used casually with the assurance that it is understood.  
> 
> The rest of his post was equally reasonable, which is why I decided
> not to respond.  My gut feeling, though, was that although you might

Wow, thanks !

> be able to use the word casually in the 'Artificial Life' community,
> you can't in general do so.  I think I'd recommend strongly *against*
> using the word in this forum unless you spell out what you mean by it
> each time the subject comes up.  The reason for my feeling is that for
> many people, emergence still means something like this:
> 
> >Actual life displays properties which are not reducible to the
> >interactions of elementary physical quantities.

As you know, I stated quite the contrary view in the posting you reference.
Absolutely NO ONE doing serious artificial life research would defend
views such as those enunciated by Kalki.  Artificial Life researchers
have demonstrated that properties of "living" systems can be duplicated
in artificial systems that _are_ reducible to elementary interactions.
This includes emergent properties like social behaviour, learning ...
the point is, there is no _need_ to postulate anything special about
living systems to explain such behaviour.

>  
> I think the vast majority of scientists now think that this is wrong,
> and so there shouldn't be a word for Kalki's claimed properties any
> more than there should be a word for flying purple people eaters.  (As
> an aside, Kalki what evidence do you have to support your assertion?
> If you say "because people haven't been able to perform the reduction
> yet", I'll be disappointed.  Not surprised, but disappointed.)
> 
> Wherever the potential for this confusion remains, I'm against using
> the word.  Anybody else?  

I (sort of) agree with you, but then the word "evolution" is freely misused
in this forum as well, so is "entropy".  When someone misuses a technical
term, and especially when such misuse has pernicious effects, we should point
them toward the proper meaning.  The trouble with "emergent effects" is that
there is not yet a scientifically valid definition with with wide acceptance.
The definition I modestly offered was intended for discussion purposes.

> 
> >Kalki Dasa
> 
> }: Prof. David O. Tinker      INTERNET: dtinker@blunile.guild.org        :
> 
> Mickey Rowe     (rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu)

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Newsgroups: talk.origins