From: geoff@flash.bellcore.com (Geoffrey Clemm)
Subject: Re: In favor or rally scoring...
Organization: Bellcore
	<1992Aug5.181411.25231@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>
	<geddis.713425438@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Aug10.205120.6602@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:16:00

In article <1992Aug10.205120.6602@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> kaena@haleiwa.austin.ibm.com (D. Kaena Freitas) writes:
   In article <geddis.713425438@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> Geddis@CS.Stanford.Edu writes:
   >No one said that figuring out which of the two (jump serve vs floater) would
   >be a better decision, is an easy thing to do.  It's only that, whatever
   >answer you come up with, you should come up with the _same_ answer under
   >rally scoring.

   All I will say is this, if you play a game the _same_ way under 2 
   TOTALLY DIFFERENT types scoring systems, your team MUST be pretty shitty!

If you cannot answer the question, you swear at the questioner.
Now *there's* a convincing argument.

   >The original example was supposed to be a case where
   >you choose to do something different because of the scoring system.  Your
   >comments don't address that case.

   You don't realize, I GUESS, that if the score is tied at 16-16 with a 17 point
   cap, that a miss serve could end it all! Under siding out this is NOT the
   case. There is at LEASE one more service where you are on offense to get the
   ball back! Comprende? 

I see.  Because a miss[ed] serve could end it all, you serve in a fashion
that is virtually guaranteed to allow them to set up a perfect hit and win
the point.  Great strategy.  Somehow, the desireability of losing the game
on the play after the serve, rather than on the serve itself, evades me.
As Mr. Geddis has repeatedly explained, if you have a greater probability
with a jump serve of causing the other team to eventually commit a fault,
you jump serve -- if not, you don't, whether it is rally scoring or not.

   >>Doesn't it also matter HOW you lost the point?
   >No.  The other team doesn't get two points because you lost the rally "poorly".
   >If you're making decisions because of things like this, then you could be
   >playing a lot better...

   IN THIS CASE, the other team ONLY needed 1 point to win the game, and
   guess what? They won! And something else, NOT because they won it, it was
   because the other team LOST it!

I see.  If you jump serve and it doesn't go in, then *you* have *lost* the
point, while if you serve a weaker serve, and they easily set it up and kill
it, then *they* have *won* the point.  And the latter situation is supposed
to make me feel better about having lost the game?

   How long have you been playing competitive volleyball?
   How great is your team?

I see.  If Mr. Geddis is concerned about which team gets the point,
as opposed to trying to make sure he doesn't "lose" the point at the
cost of making it more likely that the other team "wins" the point,
then there is something wrong with his ability and his team.
I don't know about his vb skills, but at least his mind is functioning (:-).

   >In other words, would you care to enlighten us as to how the _method_ by
   >which you lost the point matters in the least?

   Experience is the key to becoming better in any sport. I sure hope this
   same team gets into the same predicament in another game and the same
   person was serving. I would like to bet my life earnings that he wouldn't
   jump serve that ball again! Would you?  So theres your "enlightenment"
   on the subject, the method at which you lost will probably teach you a
   VERY valuable lesson the next time the situation arises.

I see.  If you ever lose a point on a jump serve, than you learn the
valuable lesson to never use a jump serve in rally scoring.  In fact,
the best way to guarantee that you don't "lose" the point is to always
send a high lob to the center of the opposing teams court - not only
on the serve, but on every other play after that (a high lob to avoid
blockers, and in the center of the court to minimize the chance that
it goes out).  After all, it's just as bad to "lose" the point on a play
after the serve, as it is with the serve.

   Yea, so far only yourself and Geoff seem to be convinced about this point.
   Thats funny, most of the people on this newsgroup seem to think differently!

I suppose you could interpret silence as agreement with your side of the
argument (I thought they mostly couldn't care less one way or the other :-).

   >For those who still don't believe, try
   >to answer this for yourself:  Under either scoring system, you always do
   >better if you win the rally rather than lose it; so why shouldn't you do
   >whatever you can (again, in either case) to win the rally?  If a jump serve
   >gives you a better chance, than do that.  If a float serve has higher
   >probability, than that's the right thing for you.  Why does the fact that
   >it might be "rally scoring" matter to you?

   Again, I will refresh your memory on the situation. In rally scoring serving
   becomes VERY important. YES, more so then in a regular game. If you give the
   ball back because of a bad serve, you go on offense to get it back. You 
   don't lose a point. In rally scoring you LOSE a point everytime that ball
   is miss served.

You also LOSE a point every time you let your opponents set up and kill the
easy serve you just gave them.

   Logically, think of it this way, the only way you get to
   rally scoring is because the sets are tied i.e. 1-1 or 2-2. By these scores
   it should tell you that you are pretty much playing evenly for the last 2 or
   4 games, right? Now how do you WIN the damn thing? By continuing to play the
   SAME as you have been palying? Hell, if there was no 17 cap the teams could
   be playing all night long because they are so evenly matched. So what do you
   do to win outright? I don't think playing the same is the answer.

No one suggested that you play the same throughout the match, only that
your strategy is not significantly affected by whether a particular game
is rally-scored or not.

Playing the same in this situation doesn't do you any good for non-rally
scoring either, unless you are just counting on being in better shape and
outlasting than your opponents.  As always, the correct strategy is virtually
identical for rally and non-rally scoring.

   Therefore, play the same you may or may not win. Change your play for the
   positive(by not giving away points on serves), greater % of winning.

Not if you just give away points on easy serves that get killed.

   Of course
   you hope the other team plays the SAME way as they did in both previous games
   so you know their weaknesses and can exploit them with your more superior
   play. You may change you line up. Is this NOT changing the way you play?

And you don't do this in non-rally scoring ?

   You may even try the ole switch, substitute in a younger player for a veteran.
   You could also have done that throughout the match, but your team was average
   throughout the match you lost 2 games. My favorite, do you decide to serve
   or receive on a rally score game? On a regular scoring game would you give
   up the serve? NOT!

Now *this* I agree with !  (Really, I do :-).

   As I told Geoff in a subsequent post, I wasn't
   there and as long as the decision didn't bring forth any hard feelings and
   everyone else felt like he did, about the loss thats the best thing you could
   hope for. I respect his opinion, and this is MY opinion.

Egad, I spend a whole article being sarcastic at Kaena's expense, and then
he makes a comment like this.  I could kill the article, but then all you'd
have left to read is postings from folks who feel in some mysterious way
they share in the success of a team of players upon whom they have had
absolutely no influence other than happening to have been born in the
same country (maybe).  Or maybe, paid money to watch them play, or perhaps
always cheer for them, well, I guess that's reason to be proud.
[Asbestos suit on :-].

Cheers,

Geoff


--
geoff@bellcore.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball