HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.4 1/31/90)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:57:49 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anglican Church Question...
              "Anglican Church Question..." (Oct 12,  5:52pm)

Ed, I am having difficulty now remembering what our Episcopal Shield
looks like in the upper left quarter.  I have seen it so often that it
fades into the background.  I will look again when I get home.  But
the advertised use of the 1928 Prayer Book pegs this church-to-be as
one of the conservative Anglo-Catholic congregations that wish to set
up their own non-geographic Diocese in America and have no
relationship with the Episcopal Church of America.  They think we are
too inclusive.  We do things like ordain women, and such that they do
not agree with.  It is a similar stand to those who will submit that
long list of resolutions to the General Convention of the Episcopal
Church and to the Convention of the Diocese of Massachusets.  Louie
can likely tell you more of the details.

Shalom,                              Len Howard
                                     tas@pegasus.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 22:07:00 GMT

In article <edjans01.718644278@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing) writes:
>In <92282.092440MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
>Your weak arguments are made even weaker by your insistance of this
>paragraph.  If you wish to follow the Old Testament God, the God of
>punishment and anger, then do so in your own space and time.  Don't inflict
>it on me or the Church.  We are Catholics and Christians.  This means we
>follow the message of Christ!  This is a message of Love and Forgiveness,

Funny, I thought my God, and I am a Christian and a Catholic, is the God of the
Old Testament, which is why my salvation as a member of the New Covenant is
impossible to understand without the people of the Old Covenant; isn't it still
the case that salvation comes from the Jews?  Am I woefully mistaken here?

Pax tecum,
John


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:44:49 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.231550.1817@erenj.com> bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>>I've heard that in this new translation the creed will be changed from
>>"for us men and for our salvation" to "for us and for our slavation"
>>and "became man" to "became fully human" (I'm not entirely sure about
>>the second one).
>>
>No, but given the current sorry state of Roman Catholic theology, I
>wouldn't be surprised.  I guess the political correctness Nazis are
>at work even within our faith.  
>Just for the record, the pertinent phrases (from the Latin):
>
>1) "Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de
>caelis."
>
>2) "...Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine: ET HOMO
>FACTUS EST."

   Well, although we are "slaves of Christ" He did not come down from
Heaven for our "slavation" [ sic ] 8-).

   The problem is not with the Church.  If people want to complain,
they should complain instead about the English language.  In Latin we
have two words, "homines" and "viri."  Both are most literally
translated to the English "men," the former meaning "men" as in
"mankind" and the latter meaning "men" as in "males."  So there is
nothing at all sexist in either the Latin language or the liturgical
text written by the Church.  The "problem" is in the English language.
Some of these "anti-sexist language" fascists need to get a clue.  I
will stop here, as I am starting to feel the urge to use profanity.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: Homosexuality
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:42:37 GMT

In article <00962060.6CC1FC40.20269@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>As a matter of fact, and in support of the above, there are some animal species
>that contain a homosexual fraction of the population.  Now, animals can't choose
>to sin (or to not sin, for that matter), and I'm dubious of the concept of
>"child abuse" in the animal kingdom.  Since there is proof that it occurs in
>God's nature where there is no self-determination and where only the God-given
>impulses exist, why is anyone surprised that some feel it natural in humans?
>
There was an interesting article a few months ago in Newsweek that talked about
this issue of what goes on in lower species.  They showed several pictures of 
chimpanzees I believe; one picture if I remember correctly was of sibling chimps
"doing it"; another picture, again if my memory serves me, was of a father chimp
"doing it" to either his son chimp or daughter chimp, I forget which.
A particular phenomenon I have observed here on the lovely campus of Notre Dame
invovles ducks during mating season.  Approximately five male ducks will     
approach a female duck.  One duck will take the females neck in its mouth and
pin it to the ground, two other ducks will take a wing each in their mouths and
pin the females wings to the ground, the fourth duck will often pin one of her 
legs to the ground with his mouth.  Finally the fifth duck will mount the the
female from behind, as she struggles to free herself from the other ducks.
Just a little information to ponder, when drawing parallels to different species.
Peace
John



Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: alvin@netcom.com (Alvin H. White)
Subject: LATIN: New Testament Audio Tape Cassette Set.
Summary: Publisher Address, Price and Order Data Sought.
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 21:54:20 GMT


I am seeking to obtain a set of audio cassettes of the
New Testament in Latin.  If not available would also be 
interested in Old Testament.

If available in stereo bilingual Latin/English even better.
That is, one track Latin and the other track English.

Also interested in a bilingual printed New Testament. 
Best would be two column where effort has been made to 
keep comparable words of both languages on the same 
horizontal line for easy eye tracking.

Thanks,

alvin

Postal:  Alvin H. White, Gen. Sect.
         G.O.D.S.B.R.A.I.N.
         1505 De Rose Way #66 
         San Jose, CA 95126-4133 USA 

   Tel:  +1 408-286-2794
         +1 408-286-4244
E-mail:  alvin@netcom.com

======================================================== 
Government Online Database Systems
Bureau for Resource Allocations to Information Networks 
[an idea waiting to happen]

120 West 38 North

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:17:51 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:21:08 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Catholic vs non-Catholic

(From Becka Sutton   )

I don't know about educational standards in non-Catholic schools
or about Catholic schools in America but I do know that I became a
Catholic thanks to going to a Catholic school in Britain.
God Bless
Rebecca
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:09:21 EDT
From:         "Patrick S. Golden" <pgolden@NHGS.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Wine

I was interested in Eric's recent post about the inability to
use grape juice in the consecration.  I never thought about
that before.  A follow-up post (forgot who, sorry) mentioned
parish discussions about recovering alcoholic being left out of
communion under both species by this restriction.

My question is this:  is the restriction on use of wine only
based purely on wine being used at the Last Supper?  If not,
there doesn't seem to be much sense in the restriction to me.

Scripture shows us that Jesus changed water into wine, and that
water flowed from his side when pierced.  If the priest
represents Jesus at the consecration, then why can't the priest
just as easily supervise the changing of grape juice into the
blood of Christ.

Not the most perfect logic, I'll admit, but I
hadn't really though of this as being an issue before.  Another
example of an improperly catechised catholic I guess!

Pax
--
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             |
|Virginia Space Grant Consortium|
|Hampton, VA  23666             |
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       |
|-------------------------------|
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:44:46 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
              7 Oct 1992 15:38:28 -0700 from <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>

Why do these same topics keep coming up? Could the challenges be coming
from the Spirit?

On Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:38:28 -0700 (Gordon C. Zaft) said:
>                            If I as an unmarried (heterosexual) male
>am called to be celibate, why should an unmarried (homosexual) male
>*not* be called to be celibate?  The Church's rule is the same --
>sex outside of marriage is sinful.  This applies to homosexuality
>or heterosexuality.

I saw Phylis Schafley (sp?) on TV the other day. She said that she
opposed a gay right act which would give gay and lesbians "extra rights"
above what the rest of the population enjoys, and then in the next breath
said that homosexuals should not be allowed to be teachers or serve their
country in the military. By her own words she not only demonstrated that
job discrimination exists, but that a gay rights act would not give gays
any extra rights but only guarantee them the same rights as the rest of
the American public.

Your statment above rings as hollow as hers. It's illogical to say that
sex acts with someone of the same gender are wrong because they're done
outside of marriage, and then turn right around and deny those same
people the ability to get married!

It doesn't matter to me if the cause if biological or environmental, the
effect is certainly ingrained and highly resistant to change. Like it or
not, it is the way gay people are "wired". I have argued before on this
list that loving relationships come from God, and reflect God's love. As
such, any relationship between two adults who are acting in love the only
way they find possible, should be blessed.

No, committed gay relationships are not as "ideal" as relationships
between men and women, but for people who are only capable of this type
of relationship it is better than a lonely life of furtive anonymous and
promiscuous sexual encounters. It is an opportunity to express that love
which comes from God. It is an opportunity for them to live a life of
love together. That expression of God's love cannot be sinful. Requiring
someone to live a life without love, is.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Liturgy--MEDIATOR DEI
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:33:36 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

the following is
taken from the encyclical letter of Pope Pius XII (1939-1958) on the sacred
liturgy -- MEDIATOR DEI
(Vatican Library translation, printed in the USA by the Daughters of St. Paul)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"61. ... The Liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all
veneration.  But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper,
either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new
situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of
antiquity."

"62.  Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and
affection to the sources of the sacred Liturgy.  For research in this field of
study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance
towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of
feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on
their occasion.  But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to
antiquity by every possible device.  Thus, to cite some instances, one would be
straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its
primitive table-form; were he to want black excluded as a color for the
liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in
Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the Divine Redeemer's
Body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings . . ."
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:38:09 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Kneeling, again

On Oct 12,  5:07pm, "(Bob von Buelow)" wrote:
} Also note GI 6 all you anti-no-kneelers :-) out there, as well as those who
} don't like holding hands at the Our Father  (not 'My Father' BTW).
}
} 6. This instruction is intended to give general guidelines for celebrating the
} eucharist and also norms for each form of celebration.  In accord with the
} Constitution on the Liturgy, each conference of bishops may establish
} additional norms for its territory to suit the traditions and character of
} the people, regions, and various communities.
}
} Apparently the bishop of San Bernardino diocese has permitted the no-kneeler
} church, and that's good enough for me.  I'll be only to happy to kneel where
} this is not the case.  Likewise, if I visit a parish that does not hold hands
} during the Our Father I would consider it rude on my part to do so.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Bob von Buelow)"

Bob,
	Did you read #6?  It says 'conference of bishops', not individual
bishops.  That's why #21 in the NCCB's appendix to the GIRM is relevant.
I'd quote it again but I'm at work, and anyway, I quoted it several
weeks ago.  It says specifically that the congregation is to kneel
after the Agnus Dei until after the Great Amen.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Where the system is concerned, you're not allowed to ask "Why?".
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kutz@andy.bgsu.edu (Ken Kutz)
Subject: Re: All about the Book of Revelation
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:04:05 GMT

edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing) writes:

>In <Bvts60.Fy7@andy.bgsu.edu> kutz@andy.bgsu.edu (Ken Kutz) writes:

>>How would these contexts change the validity of the claim of divine
>>inspiration?  Can a piece use apocalyptic language and metaphors and
>>still be divinely inspired?

>Absolutely.  Why must divinely inspired Scripture must be restricted to a
>literal interpretation?  Let me give you an example:

>[From Fr. Springman's Notes:]

>The symbols are NOT to be visualized; rather combine verbally the MEANINGS
>of the symbols.  Example:  John presents a Lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns who
>is slain yet standing --

>Lamb = Christ
>7    = total
>eye  = knowledge
>horn = power
>slain = crucifixion
>standing = resurrection

>Therefore, Jesus who was crucified and is risen now has total knowledge and
>total power.

To answer your question, a divinely inspired work must not be restricted
to a literal interpretation when metaphors are clearly being used.  On
the other hand, when "the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any
other sense lest you end up with nonsense" is an excellent principle
to follow when reading Scripture.

it seems to me that he has taken some liberty with the text here.  i
>In the end, what is important is the message of Jesus, not the message that
>we should scare the daylights out of one another with talk of the end of the
>world.

And yes, this book contains the message of Jesus.  The author states
that the letters to the seven churches are letters from Jesus
himself.  Each church represents a different type of church: the
faithful church, the church that tolerates sin, etc.  Churches today
would benefit by reading these letters, taking inventory, and asking
which letter applies to us?

Ken
-- 
  Ken Kutz			  Internet 	kutz@bgsu.edu         
  Systems Programmer		  BITNET   	KUTZ@ANDY
  University Computer Services    UUCP     	...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz   
  Bowling Green State Univ.       US Mail   241 Math Science, BG OH 43403
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: LATIN & the Church
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:55:27 GMT

waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>For Anyone Who Cares:
>
>Benedictus Deus in saecula!
>
>Latin is not some outdated mothball of the Church loved by "nostalgic"
>Catholics.  Latin is an integral part of the purest and fullest expressions of
>*ROMAN CATHOLIC* Faith.  Latin is in no way part of the American Catholic
 [text deleted]
>
>Brian T. Waldbillig
>Petrus Romanus

I care.  But I disagree that Latin, or the liturgy, or even the Mass is
anywhere near the fullest expression of our faith.  The fullest
expression of our faith is how we treat other PEOPLE in our daily life.
We are called by the church to take Christ's message of love to the whole
world. That is how we are to express our faith.  The Mass is one support
mechanism that Jesus provided, but it is not the end in an of itself.  And
even less so Latin.  If the Pope says tomorrow that Swahili is to be the
language of the church I'm going for a Berlitz Swahili book asap.

Arguing over whether HOMO should be best translated 'male person' (implied
by 'man') or 'human'.  Sheeesh.  Color me disillusioned.

The most beautiful Latin High Mass can be but a gong sounding in the wind
if it doesn't move us to service of our fellow humans.  'the Mass' should
not be an object of reverence.  It IS a place where we can strengthen our
faith, but listen for the message, not the medium.

Bob
--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Paul VI--ECCLESIAM SUAM
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:45:34 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa


the folowing is taken from the first encyclical of Pope Paul VI (1963-1978) on
His (Christ's) Church -- Ecclesiam Suam
this translation is printed in the USA by *Our Sunday Visitor, Inc.*
excerpt from page 18 of this translation

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    "Let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that the edifice of the Church
which has now become large and majestic for the glory of God as His magnificent
temple, should be reduced to its early minimal proportions as if they alone
were true and good.  Nor should we be fascinated by the desire for renewing the
structure of the Church through the charismatic way as if that ecclesiastical
expression were new and good which sprang from particular ideas, zealous no
doubt and sometimes even claiming their origin from divine inspiration, thus
introducing an arbitrary scheme of artificial renewal in the very constitution
of the Church."

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *   
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bkelly@dopey.helios.nd.edu (b kelly)
Subject: Re:      English translation of the Mass
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:24:25 GMT

In article <9210141813.AA06953@intercon.com> Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM> writes:
>> This I'm not sure about.  I heard that this is not true, i.e., our
>> translation of the liturgy is _not_ approved by Rome.  That could be
>> wrong, though.
>
>Well, the translation in current use was prepared by the International
>Committee on English in the Liturgy, which is a U.S. corporation.  However,
>missals themselves that use it have been given Imprimaturs.  This seems to me
>to imply that the translation has been de facto approved, even if there has
>been no explicit statement from Rome one way or another.
>Peace,
>Amanda Walker

There is an element of truth in both of these statements.
Our current English translation was prepared by the International Commission on
English in the Liturgy, as Amanda says, for use in English speaking countries.
This Commission was set up for the purpose of making a standard translation of
the liturgical texts of the Latin Rite into English.  However, there has been
no official approbation or disapprobation of the translation in itself. The
ICEL translation is the translation to be used when celebrating the liturgy in
English precisely because it is the ICEL translation -- not on account of any
merits of its own.  (As a translation, it has very few |-) )

Amanda's other point is a bit out of place though. The presence of an 
_Imprimatur_ on any book or publication is in no way, directly, _de facto_, or
otherwise, an approval of the contents of that book.  _Imprimatur_ means "it
may be printed".  It is the official permission granted by the Ordinary or his
delegate, allowing the material to be printed.  What it implies is that the
book does not contain material which is dangerous to the faith and morals of
its readers.
Again, an _Imprimatur_ does not imply approval of a book's contents.

God Bless, all,
Brendan
.

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:58:44 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:01:30 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Wires Crossed?

(From Becka Sutton   )

Just something I heard which I thought might interest everyone.
A few weeks ago I had yet another discussion with a protestant friend
about the existance of purgatory.  He didn't believe in it.  A few days
later another non-Catholic friend told me that the first guy did believe
in purgatory but didn't realise that's what he meant.
You see alot of Protestants believe a. Once you're a Christian you're
going to heaven, and b. You can't go to heaven with sin on your soul.
Therefore as it is very possible for a Christian to die with sin on their
soul there must be a place of cleansing after death.  The strangest bit
is that if you suggest that therefore they do believe in Purgatory they
won't except it.
Who isn't listening to who?
God Bless,
Rebecca
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic