From: frazier@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Frazier)
Subject: Re: What keeps me from being Lib. (was Re: FW: news release: abolish IRS)
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 20:18:27 GMT

doctor1@cbnewse.cb.att.com (patrick.b.hailey) writes:

>In article <1992Apr7.193628.24602@cs.ucla.edu> frazier@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Frazier) writes:
>>Not that anybody cares why I'm not libertarian, but...
>>I agree with almost everything up above, with a major exception
>Greg:  Have you ever made such a strong statement of agreement with so many
>political ideas all at once in your whole life?  *Think* about it!

Yes, I have.

>>If there was a little less "purity" in libertarianism and a little more
>>interest in taking the current system and, by small modifications, gradually
>>make it more libertarian, I'd be into it.  Trying to re-structure society in
>>one fell swoop just doesn't cut it for me
>Don't you wish you could *find* the ideals of the other parties?  Don't you
>wish they *had* a vision that they could relate to you.  Don't you wish they
>*stood for* something?

Please, get off your high horse.  Libertarian is just another
political party - the question is whether one finds the
platform more or less attractive.

>This is a democracy.  You *can't* "re-structure society in one fell swoop".
>The limitations you're looking for are built-in.  The whole point is to fight
>against them, HARD.  But, luckily, we'll never score a total win, or even
>close to it.  That is as it should be.

The question is the path to change.  I want to see an intelligently
thought out path that will make the change reasonably painless.  As
I suggested (via email) to another individual, it may be that that
is hopeless - change is fraught with risk, and perhaps one has to
bite the bullet and go for it.

>What is wrong with working from a set of principles?  The Libertarian
>literature is full of phrases like "no one knows how far we can go towards
>this ideal, but it is a goal worth striving for".  You have a problem with
>*that*?

Yes, I do.  The path to hell is paved with good intentions - I'm
much more interested in pragmatism.  Yes, there are pragmatic
reasons to be interested in libertarianism and the Libertarian
Party, and that is why I'm listening.

>I don't mean this to be a flame, not at all.  You're obviously a thoughtful
>person.  So please take this with all due respect:  *GREG!  WAKE UP!  LOOK 
>AT WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN!*:

>        "If they weren't so principled, I'd be for them"??

I want glasses like yours - they make things look so neat! :-)
Seriously, while I'm a very ethical person, and ethics is
something I hold in high esteem and value in elected officials,
I don't see the Libertarian party as necessarily being more
principled or creating a more principled world.  The goal
is to create a situation in which all of our self-interests
work to create a better society (Adam Smith majoring in
social studies), which could create a more ethical society,
but that's a bit long range and foggy to be casting votes
for.

As for what I wrote, my paraphrase would be more along the
lines of
	If they would work for small changes within the current
	system instead of striving for immediate fundamental
	change, they'd have my attention.
Note that, when I say "fundamental change", I'm not talking
J. Brown fundamental change, I'm talking major restructuring.
Or, that is how I perceive the Lib. position.

>It sounds to me like you'd agree with the LP more than not, and if we weren't
>talking about a "third party", that would make you a member, or at least
>supporter, of that party, yes?

No.  I'm very interested in voting for Perot, and if I'd been of
voting age I'd have voted for Anderson - I'm looking for a 3rd
party.  Lib, Green and Perot all merit my attention.

>I just agree with more Libertarian positions (or, at least, ideals)
>more of the time than I do any others.

The ideals are interesting, but if they result in positions
I don't agree with the Lib's won't get my vote.  As I mentioned
in another post, I'm getting the Lib. platform, so I'll be
able to talk more intelligently about this in the future.

>C'mon, give us a try!  Your info packet is free, so just do it.  Call:
>(800) 682-1776.

Hey, are you really Jerry Brown?  :-)  Seriously, thanks for
the ph. #.  If I get my act together, I'll use it.

>  Thanks awfully,

Thank you.
-- 


Greg Frazier	frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU	!{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier