From: timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn)
Subject: Commercial News/Mail Service issues in KW
Organization: TDK Consulting Services
Distribution: kw
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:10:03 GMT
Keywords: email,news    

Crossposted to kw.general since the issues involved here cover more 
than questions of connectivity and service interruptions.

In <1992Nov19.022038.17628@xenitec.on.ca> eah@xenitec.on.ca (Ed Hew) writes:
>In <BxxA1v.6t3@u36.kwnet.on.ca> sean@u36.kwnet.on.ca (Sean Goggin) writes:
>>Announcing 
>>		KWNet
>>		_____
>>Normal email and news for as low as $5 per month *
>
>Ladies and gentlemen,
>
>For years the (now) larger sites in KW have propagated mail and news
>for free for the smaller sites, often at substantial expense to
>themselves.  

This isn't a "free" mail/service, it's subsidized. And in the past 
this could be done because:

	- There weren't many sites out there needing service

	- The capacity required to service those sites was easily
	  covered by the excess computing and storage capacity 
 	  available from the various companies that participated 
	  in USENET.

	- For central sites, news consumed a small enough overhead 
	  that, from a coporate or personal perpsective, it was 
	  negligable.

As the net continues to grow, however, this model is becoming more and 
more difficult to follow. Sites are appearing at an exponential rate. 
News is doubling in volume ever 18 months or so. Today news and mail 
is not something that can be gotten away with because it's so small 
as to be a non-issue anymore. Past providers of the long-haul news/mail 
service (in our case, the UW's watmath) have or are getting out of that 
business altogether. And as local demands grow, there's going to be (if
not already) a need for some organization - or even a full time person -
to work on keeping things working smoothly and co-ordinate efforts here.

The cost of running USENET is getting more and more expensive as time goes
on. And the allocation of that operational cost is an issue we have to 
grapple with if we want the net and news to continue to enjoy continued 
growth in KW without overloading one or a couple of generous people.

>Historically, we've always strived to provide an entry point into the
>wonderful world of USENET for those who otherwise would be unable to get
>a connection.

And I, for one, am immensly grateful for what has been over a number 
of years a 99% hassle-free news/mail service.

>I suppose that those who are paying for the service may plead poverty
>and nicely request donations, but really, re-selling a low-volume
>service that should be given away is crossing the line somewhat.

This depends on what you're looking for. I don't know what market Sean's 
targeting, but I'm looking at getting a centralized, *self-supporting* 
news/mail service going in KW. One who's costs are covered by the payments 
it receives from those who benifit from the service. One that doesn't have 
to depend on one or more company's continued generosity and altruism but 
pays it's own way.

If things go well, I hope to grow this into something that:

	- Has a full-time admin (probably a knowledgable co-op student) 

	- Can put time into soliciting other companies and people to join 
	  the network (maybe even get uunet.ca connections!)

	- Can afford to spend the required time needed to get people who 
 	  are not-SW proficient enough to admin their own USENET node up 
	  and running.

	- Will maintain a list of sites who are willing to propogate news
	  and mail to other, smaller sites. (Those who want "fresher" news 
	  can pay for it. Those who don't mind the additional delay can 
	  get it from a downstream site willing to provide that service.)

>Very simply, those with volume substantial enough to be noticed should
>be talking directly to either uunet.ca or your local friendly ONet host.
>If your volume is so small as to be negligible, then I see no reason
>why you should be asked to pay until you grow to a size where it is
>warranted.

This depends on the size of your wallet and the relative value of news 
to your own purposes. I've got a number of downstreams who are private 
sites which, if they had to pay for their connect time by the hour, would 
be looking at uunet.ca bills of over $100 per month per site. And there's 
no way they could begin to shell out those kind of $$. Hence this service 
I am offering which enables them to get news at a cost more in line with 
what they can afford.

And even though I'm one hop away from the Internet, there's been 
comments about the latency time of news getting to them and questions 
about "How can we get it sooner?". Clearly, if they want "fresher" 
news, and they are willing to share in the cost that it takes to get 
that news to them faster, then it only makes sense to do just that. 

This service first started because I had to pick up the costs for a uunet.ca 
connection, so in co-operation with the downstream sites who chipped in a 
few $$ to cover their useage it was done. Then a number of downstreams with 
v.32bis modems expressed an interest in having their connect times decreased.

Ordinarly neither I, nor TDK Consulting would have any need for a v.32bis 
modem since the present setup has suited *my* requirements nicely. However, 
if I could enough people were willing to cover the costs of installation 
and operation of such a line, then it only makes sense to do so. In this 
case, rather than one company paying a lot for something that others 
benifit from, a number of people pay a little. and all get a large benifit 
from the facility of increased connectivity.

This is where my present public offering of a news/mail service came 
from, namely I was looking for the 2 other subscribers needed to make 
the service viable. If others signed up too - great! If not, that's 
ok too.

>While I'm not adding _new_ uucp mail/news feeds here, 

Because it costs too much to commit the extra resources (phone lines, disk 
space, CPU time, personal admin time) that could be better used in your main 
line business, right?

With a pay-for-use service, this won't be as great a problem. As demand 
grows, fees will come in to offset the extra equipment/admin time to 
enhance the system and keep it running. Eventually I can see this getting 
to a sufficient size where we can start making referrals to downstream 
sites which are willing to provide free news/mail connections - if they 
want that kind of service. If they want something a bit closer to being
"live, then in this scenario, instead of one company/person providing the 
service out of the goodness of their heart from time out of their busy 
schedule, it'll be someone's *job* to run this service, keep a list of 
sites which are willing to give out news/mail feeds, maybe even take 
over some of the net.functions that helps keep USENET going.

If a lot of people and companies chipping in a few dollars here and there, 
I think we can build *and professionally service* a really substantial 
centralized setup here. (Witness uunet, uunet.ca, uupsi, etc.) If we stick 
to the "subsidized" news propogation scheme, then the net'll only grow a 
little at a time, dictated as people's generosity and resources enable it 
to increase.

>I still maintain quite a few of the old ones.  (The larger now talk 
>to uunet.ca directly.)

Yep. And if this colabborative gets big enough, it'll eventually be 
going to get it's news directly from uunet.ca on our way to self-sufficiency.

>We also provide news feeds (up to _full_) for our established historical
>connections when we know they support the people who bring news and mail
>into the city.  


>Obviously, we strongly encourage the propagation of news.
 --------------------------------------------------------

Ditto here. We're just going about this in different ways. Right now
*all tdkcs does is news and mail.* There is no excess capacity because
all it does is this one function. If one of these aging HDs goes down, 
were this a "subsidized" service it'd take some time before I'd replace 
them, and in the meantime all my downstreams would be out of luck. Since
they're helping shoulder the cost of the equipment, if something happens
to it, maintenance takes on a much higher priority, which means that 
the service will continue as near to uninterupted as possible.

>If you're one of those newbies stuck between a rock and a hard place,
>send me a note (oh no! yet more email! ughh), and I'll refer you to
>one of the above.  

I would also be willing to help out with this once this service hits the 
break-even point. At that point adding on new downstream sites to direct-
to-tdkcs sites won't be as big a concern and we can take over admining 
the list of sites willing to take on adittional small free feeds.

>Just remember the two organizations who make it possible to have 
>connectivity in and out of KW.  Virtually all mail/news flows in 
>and out of KW via uunet.ca (CIX - the commercial Internet) and/or 
>ONET members.  If you're going to buy service, then support those
>who make service possible and without whom there would be none.

THIS is the one major concern I do have about all this. It would make 
no sense to get a thriving news/mail service going here, only to have 
the long-haul service yanked because it was no longer viable. However, 
I am confident that provisions can be made to ensure that the both 
services are viable, and hence will be alive and well in KW, and I'm 
willing to work towards that end.

On the other hand, the recent proposal to bring publically affordable IP to 
the masses has a much greater potential to impact the revenues of either 
uunet.ca or (shudder) ONET  than a UUCP news/mail collaborative ever will.

>Many have gone to great lengths to ensure the "sprit of USENET" stays
>alive in KW (not to mention Canada).  I see no reason why it should
>now meet an untimely demise.

Nor do I. But I think the model has to change and with more people 
sharing in the costs of operating the system given their respective 
news requirements and the growth of the net. It shouldn't mostly fall 
on a few hard-working individuals or companies to carry a load that 
should be shared among more people who are perfectly capable of 
contributing something to the continued growth of the system.

>                --ed            (Ed Hew)
>        XeniTec Consulting Services             <edhew@xenitec.on.ca>

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