HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Adream
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 03:55:00 GMT

In article <kushi2INNb02@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>In article <1992Apr17.025019.4547@wam.umd.edu> 
>aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>+ In article <kusaidINN9or@mizar.usc.edu> 
>+ adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>+ >In article <1992Apr16.230202.23554@wam.umd.edu> 
>+ >aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>...
>+ >> [...] I also said that because I believe that homosexual couples 
>+ >> follow the man-like and woman-like model that society sees as good  
>+ >> (One dominant and one dominated), the Complex might be well resolved  
>+ >> anyway. 
>+ >
>...
>+ >I'm astounded at this stupidity.
>+
>+ Why do you think that this is stupid?
>
>Why do I think it's stupid that someone imagines that in gay
>relationships one partner inevitably plays the "man" and the 
>other plays the "woman"?  Because it *is* stupid to believe that.

I guess that this is a nice example of the kind of logic that some people
use in this group. You give interesting and detail, not to mention the 
long references you present, about each topic.
However, let me point out that what I said above is man-like and woman-like
in terms of dominant/dominated in the relationship.
Usualy, society expects man to be the dominant and woman to be the dominated.
Not that it always works that way (I know that in my case it does not
work like that), however, society expects it to be like that. 
Just take a look at TV commercials and programation. Always the female is
serving the male and kids, and she must do it so that the man is satisfied.
Would you, or anyone else, tell me that in homosexual relations both psrtners
are at the same level in terms of the dominant role? And, which ever is your
answer, does it apply to both?

My wife always tells me: A relationship (in our case male/female) is a 
constant fighting for power. 
And I agree. I had spent a lot of hours talking to my mother about that.
I guess, also, that this is more evident in older generations. That younger
generations, thanks to more women leaving the houses and working, this
role of dominated is changing. Still, however, women receive less pay for
equal work, do not get the same type of promotions as men, and have to see
their right to decide about their own bodies in hands of men.

AAP



A
>
>Arne
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 15 Apr 1992 19:36:54 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Adream
 <1992Apr15.221009.19991@wam.umd.edu>

In article <1992Apr15.221009.19991@wam.umd.edu>, aap@next04wor.wam.umd.edu
(Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) says:
>
>In article <1992Apr15.220813.19914@wam.umd.edu> aap@next04wor.wam.umd.edu
>(Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>> [...]
>> AAP

Geez, now he's talking to himself. (sorry, couldn't resist)

Alberto,

I've been following the various threads in this group, some of which
you continued to follow up on.  You are at fault for the flaming just
as anyone else, yet you cry like a wounded puppy when someone hurts
your feelings.

You started out by being opposed to gay/lesbian couples raising
children - when presented with sample evidence that children in
existing gay/lesbian parented families are every bit as well
adjusted (perhaps more so), you still didn't let up.  (The
articles are long since gone, or I'd quote you)

Then you started in with this psychoanalytic stuff, citing tons
of "references" to "support" your arguments - you got flamed for
that as well.

Now you're complaining that your "truth" is being brushed off, but
that a gay person's "truth" is held as fact.  How about you start
listening to what the various gay people have to say here, and stop
relying on clinical BS.  The Psych* professionals are only guessing
at best, and I don't trust them one bit.  They might be doing
some good work, but they put a bias into their work.

In summary, Alberto, when you walk a mile in a gay person's shoes,
you come back and tell us how it went.  You're soo good at tossing
out "research", and this, and that, but you haven't experienced
what others are telling you - try that for a change.

-Tim
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: More references for poor Little JOhn
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 23:48:27 GMT

In article <jbi31d8@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.220827.5351@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>
>>So, how was that about Modern Psychology ....?
>
>I believe that it was "Modern Psychology from america/europe"  Not to
>belittle Argentina...

None of the books in the reference were written in Argentina.
The only one printed in Argentina was not written by an Argentinianm
and SIGLO XXI is european. If you look closely, the books are translations
from French, and maybe from some other place in Europe.
The other book was published in USA>
So, nice try. Maybe next time...

>
>Anyway, proving that someone still believes Freud is not the same as
>proving that Freud is "generally accepted".  I can come up with references
>for people writing heliocentric astronomy articles in the last decade...
>

So far, I have proven that most people believes in Freudian/Lacanian 
psychology than what you have proven about those{who do not believe.
Take out your blindfold. All over the world, it is the most accepted
school of psychology.

You want a lot more of papers and books from American/European 
authors???

Again, none in my reference is Argentinian, nor even close.

>
>
>FWA

AAP
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:1763 soc.motss:19336
From: squires@mozzarella.cs.wisc.edu (Charles Squires)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sharon Kowalski Comes Home
Keywords: About Time
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:24:07 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept

In <1992Apr4.070621.5814@wobble.uucp> dlu@wobble.uucp (Doug Urner) writes:

>The Spring 1992 NCLR Newsletter arrived today.  On the frontpage is a
>story titled "Sharon Kowalski Comes Home," the article made the
>decision sound recent.  This is the first I've heard of this victory
>so I typed in the article.  I hope it isn't old news (well actually I
>wish it were very old news).

>NCLR, the National Center for Lesbian Rights, is a non-profit public
>intersest law firm.  Their address is 1663 Mission St, 5th Floor, San
>Francisco, CA  94103   415/621-0674.  I think these folks do real good
>work and are well worth supporting.

[...]

And for anyone interested in actually MEETING both Sharon Kowalski and
Karen Thompson, they will be appearing here at the University of
Wisconsin- Madison during our "Out and About Week" celebration.
They will be giving a lecture entitled "What are the myths we live
by?" on Fri 4/24 at 6pm CDT, and conducting a workshop entitled
"'Handicapped' by society: an anti-ableism workshop" on Sat 4/25
at 10:30am CDT.  Admission is free-- the Ten Percent Society is
funding their travel expenses, and our student government is kicking
in a decent honorarium.

Fot those whose plans put them in the upper midwest during the period
4/16-4/25, I'll post the full schedule of the week's events soon.
Other speakers include: Essex Hemphill, Judith Roof, Jacquelyn Zita,
and Paul Weisselmann.  Many additional workshops, a "pink and black
triangles day", a "blue jeans day", and a traditionally-very-well-
attended dance (700-900?) (free admission, DJ, cash bar) are included.

Charlie
-- 
-  Charles S. Squires, Jr.  ---------------------------------------------
   Computer Sciences Department, University of Wisconsin- Madison
   1210 W Dayton St, Madison, WI 53706; squires@mozzarella.cs.wisc.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: I'm not your man...
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:12:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: fido.jlntlc0
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Apr17.153618.7093@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1992Apr17.150314.21105@amhux2.amherst.edu>  
>twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>> >You and your wife have extra-marital sex?  Hmm, interesting.
>> 
>> Consensual, too, and completely with partner's consent.  Welcome to
>> the real world, punk.
>
>Sometimes it sounds like Tim Pierce and efl are the same person.
>Anyway, to have your partners consent does not make it any better.


Why not?  Who are you to judge how other people live their lives?

If my partner says that it is okay with him if I have an affair, who
are you to say that there is anything wrong with that?  If I practice
safe sex, which I always do, and I have permission, you have no room
to judge.  None whatsoever.



Again, don't apply your heterosexual roles and mores on my life.  They
don't apply and I am not interested in them.




FWA
From: robertj@Autodesk.COM (Young Rob Jellinghaus)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Reporting people
Date: 11 Apr 92 02:13:15 GMT
Organization: Autodesk Inc., Sausalito CA, USA

In article <1992Apr9.195837.28592@wam.umd.edu> aap@next13epsl.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>Besides the point of what anyone posts in this newsgroup, it cannot be  
>denied that there is a high tendency among people here to:

Wrong already, Alberto.  We react to you _based on what you say in
this newsgroup_.  If people are reacting badly, they are reacting
badly to what you are posting.  There is nothing else for them to
react to.

>1) Send complains to sys-adm if GLB do not like what it is being said.  
>This makes some people to use false names.

If GLB do not like what it is being said, Alberto, it's because what
is being said is insulting, derogatory, and often openly murderous
against homosexuals.  People have a right to complain about such
speech, and sysadmins have a right to know what kind of posters they
have at their site.

>2) Insult people calling them: Homophobes, fascists, nazis, bigots, etc,  
>if GLB do not like what it is being said.

Alberto, you don't seem to be able to read.  Ronnie Jr. IS A NAZI.
He admitted it HIMSELF.  Likewise, many of the posters here post
statements of out-and-out unreasoned, unjustified hatred against
homosexuals.  This is the DEFINITION of bigotry!

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

>3) Lie about people, saying that he/she did this or that in another place,  
>if GLB do not like what it is being said.

Give me an example, Alberto old chum.

To sum up, Alberto, you seem to be failing to understand the meanings
of the words you are using.  People are coming into this newsgroup
and posting statements that could only come from (in one case) a Nazi
and (in many others) bigots.  These are the _facts_.  GLB people are
responding to your very words, and if you don't like the reaction, you
have no one to blame but yourself.

--
Rob Jellinghaus                | "Next time you see a lie being spread or
Autodesk, Inc.                 |  a bad decision being made out of sheer
Internet: robertj@Autodesk.COM |  ignorance, pause, and think of hypertext."
AMIX: RJELLINGHAUS             |    -- K. Eric Drexler, _Engines of Creation_
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: sik@cs.uow.edu.au (Stein 'The 24hr man'))
Subject: Re: To be or not to be, that is the question
Sik-Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm talking about!
Organization: Sik-SW, Dept-Comp-Sci, Uni-Of-W'gong, NSW 2500, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 11:41:50 +0800

In article <1992Apr13.210642.14351@wam.umd.edu> (AAP?) wrote:

>Interesting.   

>>
>>   When I replied that she could always rent a porn film, she said, "If
>>I wanted to watch a movie, I'd rent a movie!  I want to watch some dick
>>going into some ass!"
>>(rest of a disgusting story deleted).

>Well, I do not understand, of course,

Unless this is a trick question (or I have missed something), elf did not
mention the gender of the so-called ass...

>AAP

 Stein - sik@cs.uow.edu.au
'When thou walkest through the fire, thou shall not be burned.' -Isaiah 43:2
'Real programmers haven't even TRIED decaffeinated coffee!' - George Brims
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Re: Adream
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 12:04:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.230202.23554@wam.umd.edu>, aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
|>  
|> Real close. And, I also said that because I believe that homosexual  
|> couples follow the man-like and woman-like model that society sees as good
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> (One dominant and one dominated), the Complex might be well resolved
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
|> anyway. 
|> 

Nobody in my society sees that model as good!  (If they do, they don't stay
in *my* society for very long ;-)   )  Not for the generic man/woman
relationship and more than for the generic same sex relationship.  Wake up
and enter the 20th century, AAP, before it's too late!
-- 



*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab00.larc.nasa.gov)*       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:1724 alt.sex:13535
From: pierce@husc4.harvard.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:42:52 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <ktv7pmINN6el@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>Although I would fail at that test, I do think the point has been missed.
>Preferring to be a submissive bottom, say, is learned.  Oh, I'm sure that
>there are predispositions, but the actual sexual activity one enjoys (one's
>sexual preferences) are indeed learned.

Learned, perhaps, but chosen?  They are two entirely different things.

>Orientation is something else
>entirely.

Now I'm not sure about that.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                /
\  / pierce@husc.harvard.edu   /         See it and understand.
 \/ (aka twpierce@amherst.edu) /
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Subject: Re: FJ Needs A History Lesson
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:20:46 GMT

In article <9204071411.AA03746@Compuserve.Com> 70750.2052@Compuserve.Com ("Ronnie Jr.") writes:

>Then please tell me why you feel so superior to Dark Knight that you can
>state as FACT that Dark Knight's posts are mere drivel, that he only
>thinks things through halfway, etc.

I can easily state why Tim, myself, Lawrence Ford, DJK, and even Jack Royce
are far superios to idiots like you and the dick knight.

We all are willing to sign our real names to our posts.  You and the cowardly
knight hide behind pseudonyms.


Simple, huh asshole.



Jeff
-FWA
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Re: babies
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:07:56 GMT

elf@polari.com writes:
>   Oh, gimme a break.  How ridiculous can this Oedipal cycle get?
>There are HUNDREDS of cultures where the roles of male parent/female
>parent are so inadequately related to our own that there's no way this
>sort of formation belief can occur; yet these chilren are perfectly
>socialized to their cultures.  

This is probably the most important point in the whole discussion.  There
are *large* variations in the family structure of societies which still
produce very well adjusted children.  Even in our own society, there are
many more variations than Mr Pinkas implies.  I was raised jointly by both
my parents and grandparents in one of those extended families which was 
more popular in the last century than it is today.  They shared authority
and responsibility for the children pretty much equally, so it was like
having 4 parents rather than two.  My mother raised her little sister -
that situation is still common.  Lots of people in our society, particularly
in the past, were raised primarily by their nurses and nannies and had only
formal relationships with their parents.  Yet, none of these situations
necessarily produces a maladjusted child.  In other societies children are
sometimes raised communally in a "woman's house" with little or no interaction
with men until they are close to puberty.  In many societies, the chlidren
are raised in extended families rather than in nuclear families - the adults
sharing equal authority over the children.  I have also never seen a study
which concludes that children raised differently from the norm in any
particular society are necessarily at a disadvantage.  I can think of plenty
of examples where such a difference has been considered an advantage later
in life.

While psychologists can look at certain common types of family order and
identify patterns and developmental progression, this doesn't imply that
the patterns they identify are universal or necessary for adequate childhood
development.  About all that anyone has been able to identify across the
board is that children who spend their earliest years in an environment of
security and affection tend to be more resourceful and resilient later in
life - and even then they couch that conclusion with all sorts of disclaimer
about basic personality being a big enough factor to determine the result
in many cases regardless of environment. 

************************************************      
*Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab00.larc.nasa.gov)   *       O .
*MS 366                                        *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                  *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23665-5225                        *             \\\  \\
*(804) 864-7050                                *
************************************************
Xref: sparky alt.politics.homosexuality:2358 alt.sex:14976
From: jfh@greenber.austin.ibm.com (John F Haugh II)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:38:40 GMT
Organization: Best Care South of the Red River, LCC, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <pgr.702944547@debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu> pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan) writes:
>John, you don't know what you're talking about.

No?  So the 70% of people that Clayton mentioned didn't actually choose
to change their life.  I'll file that under "things to forget".

>You don't choose whether or not to be gay, you choose whether or not to
>lie about it.

No - You CHOOSE whether or not you are gay, and you CHOOSE whether or
not you want to lie about having a choice.

>You don't cure gays and lesbians, you abuse them until they start lying
>again.

If you want to be gay, fine.  But quit pretending you didn't CHOOSE.

Did you choose to be liberal or conservative?  Did you choose to like
white men or black?  Did you choose to be a Christian or not?

>Go survey your strayt male friends - how many of them are attracted to members
>of both sexes and choose to behave heterosexually?  Not many.  Most strayt
>men have been attracted to women all their lives, no choice about it.

And my straight male friends that like fat women this year, but hated
them last year.  Was that a choice?  And what about my straight male
friends that like oriental women this year but hated them last year?
Again - choice or not?

>Anyone who experiences sexual orientation as a choice is a bisexual.  Is
>that what you're telling us?  Fine.  But it's not the experience we had.

No.  What I'm telling you is that you can choose to like fat or thin,
men or women, liberal or conservative, black or white, etc.

Choice is a very powerful thing, something you don't seem to understand.
In a single moment you can choose to change your entire life.  But that
doesn't mean the decision to choose something is going to be easy to carry
out.  Hell, it took me about 10 minutes to choose to quit smoking and a
year or two before I was really unhooked.  It might take two or three
years as well for you to break the habits that you formed while being
gay.
-- 
John F. Haugh II      | VNET: LCCB386 at AUSVMQ | "Physical Fitness is the
SneakerNet: 042/2F068 | MaBell: (512) 823-1078  |  basis for all other forms
Internet: jfh@devnet.la.locus.com               |  of excellence"  -- JFK
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.sex
Subject: Re: Homosexualism
From: zeleny@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:54:44 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <3265@daily-planet.concordia.ca> 
gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith) writes:

>In article <1992Apr5.201831.10729@husc3.harvard.edu>
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>I recommend the biography of Oscar Wilde as evidence of such a change, and
>>that of John Maynard Keynes as a case study of the opposite.

GWS:
>Crap. Robby Ross got Oscar in the sack, and it was goodbye women. A
>clear case of a man discovering, or accepting, what he likes. 

A clear case of a man choosing to follow one inclination to the exclusion
of another.  Which is something your interpretation fails to exclude.
Also, observe that discovering, or accepting, what one likes is (a) subject
to a moral judgment, because determined by a free choice (compare "likes"
and "is compelled to"), and (b) morally ambivalent, depending on the nature
of the preference in question (some like cannibalism, others -- consensual
torture).

GWS:
>								As for
>Keynes, I thought he was bisexual, but I have read no biographies. In
>any case, you need to indicate where the choosing comes in.

Judging by his progeny, good old Oscar was fully capable of orthogenital
heterosexual relations; given that, his switch seems anything but a case of
absolute compulsion.

GWS:
>							      The
>trouble with the theory that everyone is really bisexual is that while
>it is certainly logically possible, it happens to be false. And I'm
>speaking as one who actaully tried to do what you suggest is so easy.

I never said choosing was easy.  I know some adults who still bite their
nails, too. 

>--
>     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/CICMA/Concordia University 
>                  gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca


`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                                   :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139           (617) 661-8151            :
: email zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu or zeleny@HUMA1.BITNET            :
:                                                                    :
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`


Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: tststs
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:38:14 GMT

dwmdwdjqwpmp
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality