From: sadeka@cs.mcgill.ca (Sadeka HEDARALY)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Question about Quoran
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:26:20 GMT
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Originator: farah@gnu.ai.mit.edu


khushro@niagara.eecs.umich.edu (Khushro Shahookar) wrote:

> I have some questions regarding the Quran based on Dr. H. Siddiqui's
> article, and other articles. I was unable to reach Dr. Siddiqui by email, so
> I would appreciate it if Dr. Siddiqui or some other kind soul answered them.
> 
> 
> If the Muslims don't believe in original sin, then I would like to know in a
> little more detail what is the Quran's view of the incident of Adam.
> In particular, have we inherited the mortality and the
> condemned state of living outside heaven as a result of his original sin?
> or was Adam a mortal like us before his original sin?
> 
Yes, Adam was a mortal like us before his original sin, and also he was
created to be sent to the earth. There are many veses in the Quran to
support that.


2:30. (This shows that Adam was created to be placed in the earth)

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in 
the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such 
as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy 
praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do 
not know.

2:37. (Here Adam is forgiven).

Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned 
to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the 
Merciful.

7:20. (Adam is known that he is neither an angel nor an immortal)

But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he
might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them
of their evil inclinations, and he said: Your Lord has not forbidden 
you this tree except that you may not both become two
angels or that you may not become of the immortals.

> This proves that they were not forgiven. Allah is not so unjust that He
> would "forgive" someone and still keep on punishing him. 

Adam disobeyed Allah, Satan also disobeyd Allah. What is the punishment
of Satan, Hell for ever. While for the case of Adam he was only sent to
his destination, the earth. 

Did you notice the forgiveness.

> According to the
> Quran, what is the connection between Adam's original sin and the human race
> living outside heaven? What was the reason for only 2 humans to ever live in
> heaven, and the others to live outside? Why is it not possible that Adam's
> sin is the reason for this?
> 
What we know and can tell about Allah is what he told us. He created
Adam and his off spring to dwell in the earth, even his body was made
from soil (like the earth).  The sin can be seen as a turn point to start 
the next and the real phase of Adam's life, although it came as a kind of a
punishment.

> Then how do you interpret the Quran's verses which say that the Taurat and
> Injeel were given by Allah, that Allah's word cannot be changed, and that
> these books are available today in the original form to be looked up?

> 41:43. Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the 
> apostles before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of 
> forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution.

Yes, this was said to all apostels.
> 
> 6:34. And certainly apostles before you were rejected, but they
> were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help
> came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah,
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> and certainly there has come to you some information about the
> messengers.
> 
> This clearly states that although the previous apostles were rejected, still
> there was no one who changed the words of Allah. ie the books are not
> corrupted, only the number of followers is limited. There is nothing in this
> verse that suggests that the "no change" guarantee is limited to the Quran;
> in fact, the entire verse is about previous scriptures and previous
> prophets. 
> 

Perhaps you are confused by the underlined statement. The words of Allah
means the Will and the command of Allah. So the command of Allah will be
and His will cannot be changed, by whatever rejection and whatever
persecution happened.  This has nothing to do with the words of any
scripture. 

> 2:41. And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is 
> with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean 
> price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should 
> you fear.
> 
> May I ask what book Allah is referring to when He says "verifying that
> which is 
> with you"? If the Bible has been corrupted / altered / was never written by
> Jesus's disciples, then where is this other book which according to Allah's
> own words is supposed to be "with us"? 
> 
This is talking to the children of Israel, to believe in the Quran which
is verifying the message they already have, the bible.

> 5:43. And how do they make you a judge and they have the
> Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after
> that, and these are not the believers.
> 
> Once again the Quran says that they "have" the Taurat, note the tense. 

This shows how the children of Israel are fanatic. They know that
Muhammed (saw) is the true messenger, and that his message is the truth,
but they  don't like to accept that. However they don't stick to their
Book, and they try to avoid the law in the Taurat, and seek the
judgement of Muhammed (saw), hoping that it could be easier. So
effectively they believe in nothing.

However, this made no indication about the corruption of the Taurat.
Also it didn't say that Taurat is authentic. It referred to a particular
judgement in the Taurat, which was about the penalty for the adulter,
which was stoning to death. They tried to hide this judgement because
the adulter was one of the high people, but when thay went to the
Prophet Muhammed(saw), he pointed to them the judgement in there book. 

However, this shows the attitude of those people to hide the truth.

> 
> I had asked about this on the net before, but it seems no one has a
> satisfactory answer. The best explanation that I received is the following,
> which is obviously unsatisfactory in the light of 2:41 and 5:43
> 

I hope there is no conflict now.


> If so, how do you resolve the
> contradictions between Barnabas and the Quran. If someone has read the
> Gospel of Barnabas, can he please quote from it to settle these points:

I haven't read the Gospel of Barnabas, but I will go through the given 
text. I expect that there could be differences as a result of either
misunderstanding the Quran or misunderstanding the Gospel.

Sox, David. The Gospel of Barnabas. 1984:
3>      Barnabas is at variance with the Koran on a number of important
and minor
3> points.  First,  it states that Mary experienced the birth of Jesus without
3> pain, which contradicts the Koran.  

You see here is one. Where did the Quran say that the birth was painful?
and why didn't david Sox give any references? There isn't such thing.


3>The  Raggs think this passage may
3> constitute  'a trace of apocryphal gospel', but indicate that the birth
3> without pain was also 'an accepted tradition of Latin medieval
Christianity'. 
3> A variety of Gnostic-style parables,  miracles and stories are
included in the
3> gospel, yet certain well-known accounts which have clear Gnostic literary
3> parallels, such as those of Jesus speaking from the cradle, the
appearance of
3> a miraculous spring for mother and child in the desert and the infant Jesus'
3> creation of birds from clay, are not to be found there.

This does not mean contradiction. Does it?
However, I will not continue further with this issue, because: First,
as I have said my knowledge of the Gospel is very little, and second, 
the knowledge of David Sox and his points are not substanciated, so as
to encourage me to go further.


> Also  Quran 16:108. These are they on whose hearts and their hearing 
> and their eyes Allah has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones.
> How is that fair and just? What is the fault of those who Allah chose not to
> guide? Why should they go to hell? How can they even try to heed if Allah
> himself set a seal on their hearts, their hearing and their eyes? In many
> other verses the Quran says that Allah guides whoever He pleases. How do
> these verses not conflict with our free will?

This is one of the difficult questions.

Every descendent of Adam is subject to err and to sin, but the mercy of
Allah is great. Without the mercy of Allah, no one can enter Heaven by
his deeds only, even the Prophet Muhammad (saw), as he said himself.

Allah is fair and merciful. He is fair, so He will consider every thing
we do, good or bad. 

Bad deeds vary in their value. Some of them are minor sins and some are
major ones. Minor sins can be expiated by good deeds, and major sins
require repentance and repair.  The biggest sin is rejecting God, or
considering associates or alternatives with Him. This cannot be expiated
by any thing.

What is the role of the Mercy of Allah ?

It is effective in this life and in the second life. Doing good deeds is
a mercy of Allah, repenting and repairing for sins is also a mercy of
Allah, otherwise we may not be able to repent. Then forgiveness at the
day of Accounts is the Ultimate Mercy.

The mentioned verse 16:108 refers to one type of people; those who
reject Allah, with their free will, and insist on that, their destiny is
easily determined. There is no hope, they are the loosers in the
hereafter.

I will give a simple example. If I am a teacher, and suppose that I am
fair, and merciful. I would expect three types of students.  good
students, weak students, and careless students.

Good students, will pass the exam. Fair?
Weak students, I try to help them; extra work, extra hours, etc.
Merciful? 
However, I can make a very difficult exam, and very strict marking, so
that all good and weak students may fail. Can I ? Yes. But since I am
fair and merciful, I would not do that.

Careless students, they don't come to the classes; they ignore the
tests, and they may not come. How can I help them, no way.
For those, I don't need to wait for the results of the exam. I can tell
the result, in a dvance, and I can put a red circle in front of their
names ( similar to the seal ).

This is a simple example, and I think you can extend it further until
you reach to some level where you can feel how Allah will manage us in
the day of account. I am not saying that you will have an exact picture
of the whole situation of the day of judgement, but at least some
feeling.


Since you gave a quotation of verse 16:108, I would like to say, please
read from 16:105 up to 16:109. This will give you a clearer picture.

It is a comparison between two types of people, one type pretends that he
rejects Allah (forced to do that), while his heart is full of faith,
those Allah forgives them. The other type are those who reject Him, and
are insisting and happy to do that. This type of people is very easy for
Allah to fortell that they are the loosers, so He can put a mark on them
even before the day of Accounts. This mark is expressed in 16:108 as a
seal. 

For penitent people, the thinking of such a seal will drive them to
change their attitude, when committing a sin, before getting sealled,
and for those who reject Allah and continue in their sins, they will not
heed, as if the seal is truly put on them.
So in fact, this does not contradict with the mercy of Allah. It
reflects both the knowledge and the mercy of Allah, especially for those
who deserve it.


> Non-Siddiqui Articles:
> 
> There was an article posted on polygamy, which quoted the following 2 verses
> of the Quran that seemed to be contradictory. Can someone explain what these
> verses mean and how they relate to each other?
> 
> 4:3. And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards
> orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and
> three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice
> (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands
> possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the
> right course.
> 
> 4:129. And you have it not in your power to do justice between
> wives, even though you may wish (it), but be not disinclined (from
> one) with total disinclination, so that you leave her as it were in
> suspense; and if you effect a reconciliation and guard (against
> evil), then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
> 
> 4:3 says that "if you fear that you will not do justice
> (between them), then (marry) only one" otherwise marry up to 4

This is O.K.

> whereas 4:129 seems to say that you will definitely not be able to do
> justice between them but marry them anyway, as long as you don't totally
> disregard one of them.

This is not O.K.

There are two kinds of justice indicated in the two verses. The 
justice of dealings and the justice of feelings.  Verse 4:3 says that
one has to be just in his treatment and dealling with his
wives otherwise don't go for more than one. Verse 4:129 refers to the
justice of feelings, which is not possible to have the same feeling to
all your wives, and here Allah is giving His advice as not to be
disinclined from one,....
Of course the feeling, which is not controllable, should not affect the
justice of dealling.

As an example: a judge in the court may have a case where his son is
involved with other people in a guilt. Surely the feeling of the judge
towards his son is different than the others, but he cannot be blamed
for that. However, the son should not be given a special treatment, and
the law should be applied equitably to all the people involved regardless 
of any feelings. This this is not impossible, and there are many
realistic examples where the feelings do not influence the deallings.

> Further 4:3 says that if you cannot do justice between them, then
> marry only one "or what your right hands possess". What does this mean? 

I couldn't get the question, but if you are asking about the meaning of
"what your right hand possesses" then it means the slave mades that you
possess. These were not counted as wives. 

I hope I have answered your questions,
All the best.

Ahmed

Ahmed I. El-Habbash,
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.


Ahmed I. El-Habbash,
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam