HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: john@sequent.com (John Vander Borght)
Subject: Donna Andrews penalty (Was Re: How to pull out the flagstick....)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: sqnt
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:34:46 GMT

sheldon@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Roger Sheldon - AISS) writes:

>And how about this girl in the US Women's Open who got cheated
>out of a stroke by a stupid, unfair rule.  I don't know her
>name, but she mistakenly tapped the ball while setting up
>her putt -- she, of course, took the one stroke penalty.
>But after finishing the round, the officials slapped her
>with a second penalty stroke for not replacing the ball
>to where it was before she accidentally hit it.

The WOMAN is Donna Andrews.  

No slap, they just told her that she had not followed the rules and that
she needed to add another stroke.  Her reasoning for not following the
rules was that she misunderstood what constituted a stroke, as opposed to
not knowing that she had to replace a ball that was accidentally moved.
She felt that since the club head was moving forward when it hit the ball
it was a stroke, but the rule also says you must have intended to hit the
ball, which she admitted she had not.  Therefore, instead of being a stroke
(which is what she thought it was), it was a violation of Rule 18 and she
had to replace it.

>That's totally unfair.  What possible advantage could there
>be to leaving the ball where she accidentally hit it?  She
>already got penalized one stroke.

It is not unfair.  Before she tapped it, it was up against the high rough.
After that it was a much simpler putt, because there wasn't a lot of high
grass behind it.  But, it doesn't even matter that it was made easier.  The
rule is very specific, and she violated it twice.  As both David Eger
(Executive Director of the USGA) and she said, she is lucky that it was being
broadcast, because otherwise she might have signed an incorrect scorecard and
been DQ'ed.  Then she wouldn't have even gotten third place in the tournament.
She deserves a lot of credit for taking the ruling and then fighting back to
get third.  By the way, the two strokes didn't affect her standing in the
tournament, although I'm sure she would have played a lot differently if she
had been nearer the lead.

Gee, just think, if you could move you ball, take a penalty and not have to
replace it how easy it would be get out of a bunker, or from up against a
tree, I could even pick up my ball and roll it into the hole instead of
putting it.

Golf would be a lot easier if I could move my ball with only a one stroke
penalty.  No need for unplayable lies and two club length drop rules. (-:

John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
-- 
"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!"
John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:22:53 EDT
From: <JPM121@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: greenhorn (not) learning to swing
Distribution: na
 <1992Jul29.012942.3036@ncsu.edu>

Whiffle balls are NOT the item of choice to use when practicing.  You simply
don't get any feel, and regardless of the manufacturers' claims, they just
don't fly the same as a range ball.  If you can't bear the thought of public
ridicule at the local driving range (although everyone there was once in the
same boat as you), you might look into getting one of those practive nets
that stop real golf balls for your back yard.  Also, be sure your clubs fit
you properly.  Clubs of the wrong size can make the game miserable.  Good
luck.

John Meredith
Penn State University
<JPM121@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: john@meaddata.com (John Manion)
Subject: Re: Hitting straight
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:39:27 GMT

In article <Brq8vJ.G6u@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, mkohlhaa@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mike) writes:
|> From what I gather, correcting a slice is something that a great many golfers
|> have to do at some point.  I hope that instead of having to enlist the
|> aid of a pro, I might be able to get pointer or two from any of you to
|> help me eliminate my slice.
|> 
|> Any suggestions???

   Go see a pro!  

   You can't get much help over the net.  We would need to see
   your swing, your grip, etc.  A pro is your best bet.

   Unless you have video conferencing . . . :*)

|> 
|> Mike
|> 

-- 
|John T Manion      | When will this place |                 (513) 865-1773|   
|Mead Data Central  | ever cease to suck?  |    Distributed Systems Support|
|P.O. Box 933       | -- Leland McKenzie   |              john@meaddata.com|
|Dayton, Ohio  45401|    L.A. Law, 1991    |        ...!uunet!meaddata!john|
From: dil@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Perry G Ramsey)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Question: Reg or Stiff Shafts ?
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:34:16 GMT
Organization: Purdue University, Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences

In article <1992Jul23.160206.27843@wdl.loral.com> bll@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Brad Loney) writes:
>
>What determines the shaft stiffness you should you select ?  
>
>I hit a 7 iron around 150 yards.

The rule of thumb from the Golfsmith catalog is that if you use a 7 iron to
hit the green from 150, you probably want to go with "S" shafts.  If you
use a 5, get "R"s.  With a 6, you're in the middle.

You might adjust this depending on whether want to hit the ball higher (go
with the softer shaft) or lower.

-- 
Perry G. Ramsey         Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
dil@mace.cc.purdue.edu  Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN USA
perryr@purccvm          This signature gives you specific legal rights.  You
N9LFF                   might have other rights that vary from state to state.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: YAGR (yet another golf ruling)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 01:31:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <ILH.92Jul30114500@winnie-the-pooh.lcs.mit.edu> ilh@lcs.mit.edu writes:

>Ron Sercely writes:

>    The closest decision I can find is 19-1/6.
>    
>    Q. A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole
>    and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about ten
>    feet from the hole.  The ball was either deflected by the dog or
>    the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it.  What is the
>    ruling?
>    
>    A. If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay,
>    without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog --
>    Rule 19-1.
>    
>    If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the
>    ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the
>    original ball was when the dog picked it up -- Rule 19-1a.

>Sounds like there is a difference between being deflected and being
>picked up.  Apparently being picked up is covered under Rule 19-1a as
>`coming to rest in or on a moving or animate outside agency'.

OK -- looks like we were wrong.  I find it very easy to believe that
I was wrong; what's a bit toughter to swallow was that I've run this
story by many people (this happened at a course where the management
and the club players were considerably more knowledgeable about rules
than most), and this is the first pushback I've gotten.

Perhaps this decision is newer than, oh, about 1984?  That's even
tougher to believe...


-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
From: mjb@mulka.ph.unimelb.edu.au (Michael Beeching)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Question on pulling the flagstick w/ ball holed.
Date: 23 Jul 92 05:26:40 GMT
Organization: University of Melbourne, Australia

quoted earlier:
>From the _Rules_of_Golf_ (1991 edition, but this part didn't change):
>
>  17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick
>
>  If the ball rests against the flagstick when it is in the hole, the
>  player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the
>  flagstick and if the ball falls into the hole, the player shall be
>  deemed to have holed out at his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if
>  moved, shall be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

	Is this an actual quote?, if so it is pretty obvious what it
means. It says on the first line "....when it is IN THE HOLE" then
later on says "if the ball falls INTO the hole" Hence the first
part means when the flag is in the hole (pretty easy you might say)
hence the later quote is meant to imply that the ball wasn't
actually in the hole to start with, ie resting against a very
deformed flag. So the ball is holed, hole is finished etc etc etc

Michael


Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Subject: USGA Rule Book (Free)
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:53:01 GMT

While watching the US Women's Open I saw an add by the USGA to get a
free copy of the Rules of Golf.  Just call 1-800-345-USGA (8742).  I
don't know if this is a limited time offer.
--

--Lee Hetherington
From: thompson@cvl.umd.edu (Scott Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Good Books
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:07:57 GMT
Reply-To: thompson@cvl.umd.edu (Scott Thompson)
Organization: Center for Automation Research, Univ. of Md.

In article <27JUL199214153333@trentu.ca> gmacdougall@trentu.ca (George MacDougall - (705)748-1602) writes:
>
>
>	I am still looking for a good book on the short game and on course 
>management. Neither of the books I mentioned cover these topics very well.
>

Consult the book written by one of the game's top short-game players and course
managers, Tom Kite.

	"How to PLAY Consistent Golf", 1990.

Scott



Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: john@sequent.com (John Vander Borght)
Subject: Re: Rules, Rules and more Rules
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: sqnt
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:44:50 GMT

dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes:

>forward.  This is why my situation was different than Donna Andrews.
>So now it was off to rule 18-2.

Actually, you situation  was the same.  She had not intended to hit the
ball either.

>Rule 18 is Ball Moved, deflected or stopped.

>18-2.  By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment.

>a. GENERAL
>When a player's ball is in play, if:
> (i) the player, his partner, or either of their caddies lifts or
> moved it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of
> addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or
> (ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
>the player shall incur a penalty stroke.  The ball shall be replaced
>unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun his
>swing and he does not discontinue his swing.
>Under the Rules no penalty is incurred if a player accidentally causes
>his ball to move in the following circumstances:
>(8 special cases none applying to my situation)

>So the question is, was I mistaken that if you hit the ball during a
>practice swing there is no penalty?  Sometimes you hear these sort of

You were mistaken.  This is a common mistake that people make.

>things from someone and end up accepting them as fact when they are
>not.  Am I missing something?

Nope, you figured it out.

>I took the penalty stroke under rule 18-2, but was glad to see I was
>correct in replacing the ball.

>Where do you get the USGA decisions of Golf Book?

Call the USGA 1-908-234-2300

It is about $10- $15

-- 
"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!"
John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: davet@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Dave Tutelman)
Subject: Re: Survey of Good Golf Instruction Books
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs - Lincroft, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:54:12 GMT
Summary: instruction+PRACTICE=improvement

In article <1992Jul25.134011.19950@cbnews.cb.att.com> dbd@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.b.delorme) writes:
>
>I've read two golf instruction books: Golf My Way by Jack Nicklaus
>and Shark Attack by Greg Norman....
>While I enjoyed both of these books and I found the instructions
>in these books to be reasonable, I found that when I tried to 
>incorporate these tips into my own swing, my swing went straight
>to hell.  When I played after reading each of these books, I was
>spraying balls all over the golf course.  It took me hours at the 
>driving range and going back to what my teaching pro taught me 
>before I got my old swing back.

When I was 20, I played a round with someone REALLY good, and noticed a few
things he did that were very different from the swing my father had taught me.
So I decided to try to change my swing to be more like his.  To paraphrase
David Delorme:
	When I played trying to incorporate the changes, I was spraying
	balls all over the course.  It took me hours at the driving range
	before I made the results at all predictable.
Fortunately, I didn't want my old swing back.  And after the hours of practice
(for two weeks) solidified the new swing, I was about ten strokes better
than before, and the slice that I had thought was genetic had turned into
a slight draw.

The moral (for me at least):  You can't make ANY change in your swing and
take it onto the course.  Anything new that I learn takes practice before
I can play with it.

>For me, the books are entertaining reading, but lessons are the 
>only things that have improved my golf swing.

I find that lessons only help me if I can go practice immediately (well,
no more than a day) after the lesson.  If I walk away from the lesson and
try to use it a week later on the course, I'll "spray balls all over the
course." 

But maybe that's just me....


Dave Tutelman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: sercely@convex.com (Ron Sercely)
Subject: Re: YAGR (ball in tree)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:11:33 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <ILH.92Jul30095924@winnie-the-pooh.lcs.mit.edu> ilh@lcs.mit.edu writes:
>Anybody know what happens if your ball stops in a tree?  Do you treat
>is an an unplayable lie?  Can you shake the tree?
>
>I seem to remember something in the US Open at Pebble Beach with Faldo
>shaking or climbing a tree to get his ball.  I never found out how it
>all worked out.
>
>Thanks, I've always been curious of this situtation.
>--
>
>--Lee Hetherington

If your ball is in the tree, you either play it as it lies, or you declare it
unplayable.  If you were to simply shake the tree and the ball falls to the ground,
there would be a 2 stroke penalty for breach of Rule 13 for improving your lie.

However, shaking the tree is often the appropriate thing to do!  Announce to
your fellow competitor that IF that is your ball in the tree you are declaring
it unplayable. Now the ball is out of play, and you may move the ball without
further penalty.  The purpose of having the ball fall is so that you can
identify the ball as yours!  Simply seeing a ball in a tree where you think
your ball is is NOT identifing the ball, unless you can truly see markings that
allow you identify it as "the ball" in play, not a ball.

Ron

Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com (Christopher Gattuso)
Subject: Re: PGA Tour Courses ?
Organization: Motorola LMPS
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:19:16 GMT
Keywords: n

>> [On PGA Tour Golf]
>>>I also shot a 62 and have a 308 yard drive.  That must be as far as the
>>>game will let the ball go.  
>> 
>> Well, I've managed to drive the ball 313 yards (with, no doubt, a
>> strong tailwind).  My best round is a 61, but I don't remember on
>> which course.
>
>I have also managed a 313 yard drive, but it wasn't the tailwind that got 
>me all the way rather the fact that the shot was on the short (300 yard)
>par 4 on the back nine at Avanel (somewhere around 14, 15 or 16 I think).
>Also have a best round of 58 (Sawgrass), which I only achieved a couple of
>weeks ago (previous best 61 so a big improvment). Low 4 round score of 258
>(30 under at Sawgrass which obviously included the 58), BTW the other poster
>

I am a huge PGA Tour fan.  We played alot in college (I graduated in May '91).
I hit a 318 yard drive with a 19 mph tailwind.  My lowest round is 63, BUT in 
15 tournaments, I won 11 and won nearly 6,000,000 (a little less).  I wasn't 
stellar in any real category except I hit 79% of greens in regulation.

If only video was life!!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Gattuso
gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com
Motorola, Inc.
Schaumburg, Illinois
From: ian@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Ian Watson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:19:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Increasing distance
Organization: Hewlett-Packard NSG-PWD, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf


Maybe she has the same problem as my wife -- wrists held stiff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ian Watson, HP Pinewood Information Systems Division, England.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: john@sequent.com (John Vander Borght)
Subject: Re: Donna Andrews penalty (Was Re: How to pull out the flagstick....)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: sqnt
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:35:48 GMT

brash@reg.triumf.ca (BRASH, ED) writes:

>>sheldon@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Roger Sheldon - AISS) writes:

>>Gee, just think, if you could move you ball, take a penalty and not have to
>>replace it how easy it would be get out of a bunker, or from up against a
>>tree, I could even pick up my ball and roll it into the hole instead of
>>putting it.

>It is my understanding that the unplayable lie rule works exactly this way,
>since it is the golfer's decision as to whether the lie is unplayable.  That

True, but the key words are: NO NEARER THE HOLE, and DROP.  You can't just
bump it with your club to where you want it, you can't put it closer than
where you were etc.  You also have to say it is unplayable before you touch
it.

>is, one can take a drop within a certain number of club lengths (I think its
>one) no nearer the hole with a ONE STROKE penalty.  You could, in principle,
>do this in the middle of the fairway if you choose to.  So, you can
>move it away from a tree and take just one stroke.  I am not sure
>about bunkers.  I seem to remember about not being able to take a drop
>out of a hazard.

You can't even declare it unplayable in a water hazard.  If you declare it
unplayable in a bunker, the only way out of the bunker is to go back to
where you hit the previous shot and drop, otherwise you must drop in the
bunker.  See Rule 28, it is one of the shortest rules in the book, less
than one page.

>Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of things could comment on this.

>Later,
>Ed.


-- 
"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!"
John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
From: tratnana@EUREKA-GOLD.WBME.JHU.EDU (Tilak Ratnanather)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: South Africa Emblem???
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:01:41 GMT


I just received a fax from a South African friend who now lives
in London. He says that the Springbok insigna will be replaced
by one Bok surrounded by four proteas...can anyone substantiate
this?

Thanks

Tilak Ratnanather       tratnana@eureka-gold.wbme.jhu.edu
Dept of Otolaryngology -- Head & Neck Surgery
The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
From: hamish@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: Oh wail; oh woe !
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:46:12 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Jul21.065921.14442@cs.su.oz.au>, allanc@cs.su.oz.au (Restless Wanderer) writes:
[Deleted]
>>the Oz lifting that everyone seems to have seen but the ref, and, well...
>>(ii) I am highly doubtful that Carozza's first try was grounded, Loe or no Loe,
>>probably it shouldn't have been given.
> 
> What ,you were getting the beers right.It was clear from the play NOT the
> slo mo that Carozza got the ball down before Timu rolled himover.
> Loe is a cheat,thug and alround prick.Cite him you guys,give it away.He's
> as guilty as sin.
> 

Have you seen the shot from the ground level camera in slow motion? If the ball
was grounded then it was done so between frames. It certainly didn;t touch the
ground in that shot, and its right from the correct side as well.

BTW. Loe is somewhat less guilty than the prick of an ocker that stomped all
over our #13 in the first half. Bet the ockers didn't complain about that did
they? Have the Aussie RFU made any fuss about that? Nope. 

[More crap deleted]

-- 
==============================================================================
|  Hamish Marson   <h.marson@waikato.ac.nz>                             OS/2 |
|  Programmer (n/5), School of Computing and Mathematical Sciences           | 
|  University of Waikato,                                                    |
|  Hamilton, New Zealand.                                                    |
|Disclaimer:  Anything said in this message is the personal opinion of the   |
|             finger hitting the keyboard & doesn't represent my employers   |
|             opinion in any way. (ie we probably don't agree)               |
==============================================================================
  Q. If Nuclear Tests are so safe, why don't the French do them under Paris?
From: tratnana@EUREKA-GOLD.WBME.JHU.EDU (Tilak Ratnanather)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: any analysis of 3rd test strategy?
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:11:02 GMT


It would appear to me that the ABs loosies got the better
of Farr-Jones and Lynagh.

A caveat to those who think that the Boks are a pushover:
The Junior Springboks thrashed Namibia by 60 odd points and
remember that Wales barely scraped a couple of wins under
that 'dictatorial regime of Waldron' and Ireland lost two
tests.

Anyone else interested in a summary of articles in August 1993
sorry 1992 Rugby World & Post please let me know and I shall
do my best perhaps next weekend.

Looking forward to seeing the tape delayed first test of the
Bledisloe Cup on Friday. For those of you in the DC-MD-VA
area, two pubs have TSN access. Corner Kick on Rte 355 (Exit
11 off I-270 North) and Flanagans (one block north of Bethesda
Metro on Old Georgetown Rd).

Tilak Ratnanather       tratnana@eureka-gold.wbme.jhu.edu
Dept of Otolaryngology -- Head & Neck Surgery
The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine

PS Cant someone give us a sort of build-up to the dual tours
of South Africa -- that Mandela was at Barcelona probably means
that the Boks will definitely return in 3 weeks time....
From: oughton@chopin.udel.edu (Sean Oughton)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby
Subject: Re: All Ye of Little Faith
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:08:37 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <1992Jul30.112813.6116@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> 
cctr123@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Alan Murray,CSC Operations, Uni of Canty) writes:

>That doesn't have to be the case if you have condidence in your own ability.
>Remember the kicker now has to put the rest of his team onside so there is more
>time to be able to run the ball back at the opposition and if your backs are
>strong enough, and Bunce and Little certainly are, then there's no reason why
>you shouldn't clear the ball from the ensuing ruck or maul. The biggest problem
>seems to be that forwards just can't seem to stop themselves diving over the
>top and conceeding three easy points. I think it was a real shame it took the
>All Blacks two tests to realise their best counter to the Australian kick and
>chase tactic was to run the ball back at them rather than kick it back to them.

>Alan

I must have missed this neew rule.  Is it really the case that *only* the 
player who kicks the ball downfield can put his own players onside?  Was
there any reasoning given for this?  Why penalise somebody who was already
onside?  What about kicks across field for the winger to run on to?  Does
the kicker have to race up the field as well?

        sean@bartol.udel.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.rugby