HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a Baron
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:34:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering


Greetings from Fiacha,

Hal attacked the concept that we should support fairness at the expense of
medieval recreation as did Arval. Arval then demonstrated that the East is
a soft line kingdom which tacitly ignores local awards in non Baronial
branches. The attitude in AnTir is that it is almost subversive for a
non Baronial branch to institute local awards. There is a history of vocal,
high level opposition to Provinces because they would lack the ability to
make local awards.

However, I believe that honor and courtesy demand that we allow and
encourage fair treatment of our membership. Reserving a class of treatment
to a select group on the basis of where they live seems dishonorable.

The obvious difficulty is how to justify 'holding court'. The biggest
problem is the mapping between the title of seneschal and a medieval analog.
We use seneschal as the title of the senior administrator of a branch, the
de facto local representative of the Kingdom's executive officer. We then
map the title to the executive of a castle or household to justify a non
ceremonial role for the officer. Clearly, the executive of a keep has a
limited authority to act in his Lord's stead but equally clearly, the Lord is
a real person who will make regular appearances.

Where is the corresponding Lord for a branch seneschal? He only exists in the
case of Baronies (and the Crown Province of Ostgardr)! The Kingdom Seneschal
does also has a Lord, the King. As far as I can tell, all other branch
seneschals are, de facto, the Crown appointed Lord of the lands they
administer. As such they should have the right to hold court when
necessary. They certainly are but temporary, acting Lords and so rank
below the lowest nobility.

Truthfully, the point at which the medieval model broke is the point at
which lands were handed to non-nobles and noble titles were created
independantly of land holding. To return to the original point, treating
the populace unfairly because a fundamentally broken model of medieval
behaviour would be even more broken seems both thoughtless and counter
to our stated goal of education.

Second, both Arval and Hal attacked me insistance on a kingdom wide
announced event. I agree that such an event may not be necessary for a branch
to raise needed funds. I agree that a branch may not need funds. As Hal
pointed out, it is possible to run such an event without raising funds.

I ask you to go back to my requirement that a branch split before
applying for advancement. Without some sort of requirement on the sub-group,
there is nothing to stop a branch from forming a a paper sub-group whose
only function is to satisfy this requirement. Requiring it to justify its
existance seems essential. Requiring a public event seems a reasonable
requirement and has the advantage that it is trivial for the Kingdom Seneschal
to verify that the requirement has been met.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: WILLIS%EIVAX@ualr.EDU (Braendur)
Subject: Contact in Fayetteville, N.C. Area
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 16:41:00 GMT

Greetings unto all the Gentles who read this missive from Brandr Wyborn,

I am searching for the Society in the Fayetteville, North Carolina area.  I
am going to be there over the Christmas holidays with my family.  I wish for
information on fighter practice's and any events that will be held in the
month of December out there.  If you have this information please E-mail me
at "willis%eivax@ualr.edu".  Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Enjoying the DREAM,

Brandr Wyborn, Shire Small Grey Bear, Kingdom of Meridies
 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bchapman@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Bruce Patrick Chapman)
Subject: Re: Citrons (was Re: Linen and wool)
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:41:16 GMT

In article <VADER.92Oct7143550@meryl.csd.uu.se> vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg) writes:
>What is the difference between a citron and a lemon in English?

well...a citrin is one of them french type words ain't it?
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is forwarded mail.  Please send all comments etc. to the following
		address: <9005904@mcmaster.bitnet>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Organization: University of Toronto -- Office of the Provost
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:49:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.173323.5141@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

>Within the United States, I think we need a non-profit corporation
>for two distinct reasons:
>
> 1. A tax-free corporate checking account.

Twelve independent non-profit corporations can have twelve (or twelve hundred)
tax-free corporate chequing accounts.

> 2. Indemnity Insurance for site rental.

A corporation could exist almost solely for this purpose.  I am a member of
Friends of Avalon, which is a list of names of people who attended a single
English Civil War event (Avalon) in February and March.  Everyone who attended
paid $15 to come to the event, of which most went to pay for insurance.  The
insurance covers us for liability relating to all of our English Civil War
activities for the rest of the year.  The policy was written specifically for
the Avalon event.  You don't need to have a big corporate apparatus in order
to get indemnity insurance.

And in a previous post, Mark mentioned that the corporate officer insurance
would pay for officers who are "found guilty".  You might want to check that
term -- I've been covered by that sort of insurance before, and while it did
indeed cover me for civil actions, it would not pay my fines if I were found
guilty of a crime connected with my actions as a corporate officer.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: ranfry@mala.proteus.qc.ca (Ranfry)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:51:49 GMT
Organization: Mala's Refuge, Montreal, Canada

ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder) writes:

> 
> What do others think?  What would be the 'minimum effective set'
> of responsibilities, if any, that the corporation should retain?
> Clearly the Steward's job *as currently defined* has become too
> much for any single person.  What's the right balance between
> centralizing and decentralization?
> 
> 
In mine own opinion, kingdom business should be handled by the kingdom 
and not the corporation.  Inter kingdom business should either be the 
jurisdiction of the corporation, or a special inter kindom board set up 
for this purpose.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Alchemy, Barons, Dance, Autocrats, etc.
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:09:57 GMT

In article <9210072250.AA07780@inmet.camb.inmet.com> justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:

>Re: Barony Ages
>
>Fairfax writes:
>>Northwoods has been in existence for
>>27 years...
>
>This seems unlikely -- the SCA hasn't quite hit it's 27th birthday yet,
>and I don't think that the Midrealm was founded until, what? AS III?

  That was a mistake--Northwoods has been around for only 22 years.

>Which leads to an interesting little question (I always love starting
>discussions): how many "ancient" Baronies are there around? For the
>sake of argument, let's define an "ancient Barony" as one that was
>around when a Barony was defined as somewhere not inside a Kingdom.
>(This would bring us up through AS V or so, I think.)

  A.S. VI began on May 1, 1972 (before I did, anyway), unless my year is off.
At any rate, there are two baronies in the Midrealm that were definitely 
founded before then, according to the Midrealm Order of Precdence.  Northwoods
(Lansing, MI) dates to before October 1970, since Thorvald became baron on 
Halloween of that year.  Signy Dimmridaela is recorded as the founding baroness
but no date is given for her elevation.
  Jaravellir's (Milwaukee) first baron, Thomas Twelvetongues (now Hrafn 
Egilsson Tolftungr) is recorded on May 10, 1971.  The single comment "Removed" 
is placed four years later.
  The next barony dated in the Midrealm is Wurm Wald (Champagne, IL), for which
Albert von Dreckenveldt is recorded as founding baron.  Strangly, Selene of the
Sky is listed as founding baroness, but no date is recorded for her elevation.
In any case, this falls past the AS V time limit.
  I understood that the Province of Tre-Girt-Sea was the oldest group in the
Midrealm, and Northwoods dates only to AS IV.  Can anyone (perhaps a certain
duke :-) shed light on the date of Tre-Girt-Sea's creation?

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: alchemy
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:07:37 GMT
Organization: The Internet


Justin asks:

>Question: how far back did alchemy in the Christian world go? Most of
>the "major" alchemists I've heard about have been pretty late; the
>ones I can think of offhand seem to all be Renaissance. Not that
>Renaissance is OOP, but I *am* curious...

Depends on what you call alchemy.  Both Roger Bacon and Albertus
Magnus (13th century) can be given that moniker, although they did
some real chemical work as well (inventing/discovering gunpowder and
arsenic, respectively).  Robert Grosseteste, Bacon's mentor, also had
alchemical notions.  I'm not quite sure when the original Faust was
supposed to have lived, but he could definitely have been classified
as an alchemist.  

A point of significance: in 1317, Pope John XXII issued a prohibition
on alchemy.  I don't have the exact details on hand; it's probably in
Holmyard or Leicester.  This is strong evidence that alchemy was
significant in the pre-Renaissance period.

Tio d'abaco
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissace Association
Date: 9 Oct 1992 21:33:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Hallo!,

This originally appeared on MEDTEXTL.  Thouhgt folks might be
interested.  Note the Email contact at the end of the notice (meaning, I
don't know anymore about it, so don't ask me).

============================ Begin Text =======================
Call for Papers
Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissance Association
April 8-11, 1993

The Rocky Mountain Medieval and Renaissance Association
will hold its annual meeting April 8-11, 1993 at Northern
Arizona University, Flagstaff, Arizona.  The meeting will
be cosponsored by the NAU Medieval and Renaissance Studies
Committee and the Arizona Center for Medieval and
Renaissance Studies.

Flagstaff is located within a one and a half hour drive of
the Grand Canyon.  A block of rooms will be reserved at
the Canyon for two days before and two days after the
conference.  Information on how to make your own travel
arrangements will be included in your local arrangements
packet.

The general coordinator will be:
James B. Fitzmaurice
Department of English
Northern Arizona University
Flagstaff, AZ  86011-6032.
Phone: (602) 523-6270
E-mail: JBF@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU
FAX: (602) 523-2626

Papers are invited on any topic but should be addressed to
an interdisciplinary audience.  We are especially
interested in papers on biography, cultural studies,
periodization in different disciplines, and women's
history and literature.  We encourage widespread
participation.

Proposals for sessions and detailed abstracts will be
accepted beginning September 1, 1992. The final deadline
will be January 10, 1993.

Please send two copies of proposals for papers and
sessions to the program committee chair:
Jean R. Brink, Director
Arizona Center for Medieval
  and Renaissance Studies
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-2301
Phone: (602) 965-5900
E-mail: ATJXB@ASUACAD.BITNET
FAX: (602) 965-2012

=========================================
Daniel Brink, Professor of English
Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-0302
602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-2012f
Internet: ATDXB@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

============================ End Text =======================
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: Riki.Stein@f906.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Riki Stein)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Christine de Pisan's gar
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 11:10:04 -0500

And then Andrea Marie Habura said...
 AMH> A request: I was doing some garb research yesterday, when I found an 
 AMH> illumination of Christine de Pisan writing at her desk, wearing a
 AMH> low-cut, form-fitted cotehardie. The decolettage appeared to be covered
 AMH> with white  lace or netting (what was mostly visible, against the pale
 AMH> skin, was evenly spaced little white dots, which seemed to be connected
 AMH> by a network of fine lines), which was fastened at the throat with a
 AMH> fairly opaque white (lace?) band. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing
 AMH> before? is it lace, or is it  something else? The illumination is 15th
 AMH> century, so whatever is portrayed is theoretically period. If it's
 AMH> kosher, I'm *dying* to make this for Twelfth Night. Any help would be
 AMH> appreciated. 
 AMH> Alison MacDermot
 AMH> *Ex Ungue Leonem*


Where was this illumination? I would *love* to see it, to try to figure it out 
for myself! Is the effect in the picture like modern point d'esprit lace,
or more like a grid of widely spaced threads with dots at each intersection?
Taking a fairly wild guess (not having seen this picture), I would suspect
pulled thread work, which is readily documentable to the fairly early 16th c.,
and is not-very-reliably (as far as I can tell) argued for in France as early
as the 12th century. In simple form (and what you're describing is pretty 
simple for pulled thread), it *has* been documented as early as 6th century
in Greece. All facts here pulled from the Dover book on cutwork, which
includes photos from museum collections with dates.

Hope this helps,
Ariane Baccadoro


... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mdewis@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Re: Re:One Oh
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 22:39:02 GMT

Greetings from Richard!

Some of you are probably wondering about the meaning of the lines in
the song I have been posting over the last two weeks. Some lines are
obvious; others are deliberately obscure (as in most versions of this
song). For those that came in late, It is a Rialto/SCA version of
"Green Grow the Rushes, Oh!"/"One Oh!".

From the top:

*    Twelve for the Twelve great Kingdoms

This line will be true for a few years at least :)

*    Eleven for the Eleven wrong ways to act; and

Probably should be a larger number, but theoretically there are
eleven other bodies of SCA law than the one that applies to you.

*    Ten for the Annivers'ry

One of my problem numbers ;)  Pick a tenth anniversary that applies
to you: Founding of the Barony, wedding, first event, first child
(or birthday if you _are_ that first child).
 
*    Nine for the Nine Exemplars; and

The Nine Worthies, of course (Period or Societal). I know that the
Nine Worthies of the Society were picked for (20th?, 25th?) one of
our anniversaries, but not the list. 

*    Eight for the noble motives

A bit of a cheat; I have defined eight noble motivations for playing
with the SCA. Your milage may differ: Authenticity, Fun, Honour,
Display, Combat, Craftwork, Love and Socialising. (I briefly considered
Truth, Love, Courage, Honour, Justice, Sacrifice, Compassion and
Spirituality ... hey, Lord British is SCA, right? :)

*    Seven for the Seven raised up on high; and

Not counting the OziBod, the Board members.

*    Six for the Six proud Servants

The six required great offices for a baronial or higher group:
Seneschal, Herald, Chronicler, Marshal, A/S Officer & Reeve.

*    Five for the Symbol that's a chore; and

A chore for heralds under the current rules, of course! I have no
objections to Pentacles, Pentangles, Mullets or Rowels (Though I
don't live in the Bible Belt either).

*    Four for the Picture Makers

I wonder if anyone got this one? Four is the reccomended limit to
lines of .sig code under usenet netiquette guidelines ... which
helps keep ascii artists in reasonable check if followed :)

*    Three, Three, the Pillars

...of the Crown and Society; the Peerage, of course.

*    Two, Two, the genders true
     Clothed all in rules-o

A reference to the recent discussion on same-sex consorts.

*    One is the forum all alone
     That's known as the Rialt-o!

If I have to explain this one, English is not your first language
(most likely your fifth or so :)

Thanks for indulging me in this whim, especially those kind gentles
who have expressed thier approval of the song.

-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.
-- 

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: FRP negative stereotypes
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:18:55 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings from William de Corbie!

I agree that negative stereotyping is a bad thing that has
happened to both role-players and SF fans in the SCA. However,
I would also like to point out that FRP-ers can sometimes be
very boring.

We have a number of young males (14-19 years) here who have
come into the SCA from role-playing. These guys seem to live
in a separate universe; they more or less automatically convert
everything they see or hear into D&D terms. "Sir Morgan is a
14th level fighter" is their way of saying that someone fights
well. I could quote countless examples of the same type of
remarks about clerics and wizards, not to mention spells.
The non-medieval references are jarring to non-FRP people.

They also have a tendency to see the SCA as a good forum for
live role-playing. At Visby this summer, many people were 
disturbed by elves and magic-users running around in the SCA
camp with boffer swords and other gaming OOP paraphernalia.

At events, you will see the gamers sitting/standing by themselves,
talking games and nothing else. It seems that they get so involved
with their gaming that they are unable to converse about other
things. What it all boils down to is that these guys are good in
most respects; they don't drink, scream or act offensively in any
way, but they irritate people because they appear to be playing a
different game than the rest of us.

On the other hand, much the same can be said about the computer
freaks, and the budo types... To summarize, I dislike negative
stereotyping, but there is usually a fragment of truth behind
negative stereotypes.

William de Corbie

/FRP-gamer since 1975
/translator of "Star Wars RPG", "Chill", "Cult", "Imperium",
 LoTR RPG &c, author of "Drakar & Demoner" FRP game, &c, &c
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Organization: University of Toronto -- Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 02:25:22 GMT

In article <Bw0z50.7Mz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:

>Here's my list of things that the BoD does well.
>
>1) Standardization of Fighting and Archery rules. So you don't have to
>reauthorize every time you go out of kingdom.

Or as Thorvald inn Grimmi said when that standardisation was introduced:
"Out in California they hit hard enough to dent 14ga plate.  Now we have
to armour to _their_ standard?!"

Yeah, thank Bod for all those helmets that had to be retrofitted because
of the possibility that a 1 1/4" sword might penetrate a 1" occularium.
And I'm really glad that I could turn my hardwood spear into a tent pole.

>2) Central source for publications for the SCA (officer's Handbooks and
>the like).

Handbooks for navigating the corporation's bureaucracy, you mean?  Like
the handbook which explains the armour regulations as discussed above?

I will, however, concede the point with respect to the TI, which is
a useful publication, and its mailing permit would not likely be possible
without the Corporation's expensive computer system.  In fact, I believe
the Corporation purchased rather an expensive computer system partly in
order to satisfy the US postal service's requirements for a publisher's
assets.

>3) Central registry for names and armory. So we don't have armory
>conflicts when we go out of kingdom.  

Hosannah!  Hosannah!  The fear which gripped my heart about the heartbreak
of being confused with somebody else is ... gone!   Anybody who wants to
use your name in Seattle before you move there will be foiled by the
Corporation.

>4) Standardization of rules for Kingdom organization and behavior.
>So that people have a "legal" recourse when King Swaetsochs the Obtuse
>decides that he wants to go against public opinion, good taste and commn
>sense with some folly or another.

So ya can go to the BoD, who will wisely tell you to wait it out for
a few months.  If it weren't for certain BoD regulations, you could just
get rid of him if ya wanted.  Like any other club.

>5) Insurance. Which started the whole fuss.

Which, unlike the TI, doesn't require a big, complicated corporation.

This post probably reads nastier than I meant it to.  If folks really
had a better way of doing it, they'd try, no?  Rather than just jawin'
about it?

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Pickup Trucks (was Re: regalia trailer)
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:30:12 GMT

In article <19921014082357UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU> UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU> writes:
>Our little fighter practise group(3 knights, 6 squires and 7 fighters)
>regularly has 2 times as many trucks as cars show up. One of the knights
>H.L. Marke


Hmm!  2 of the knights and squires don't fight? :-)


badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed
From: Colin_Hart@mindlink.bc.ca (Colin Hart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickup Trucks (was Re: regalia trailer)
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:36:05 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Greetings from Colin MAckay of Balmaghie in An TIr. I can get all my SCA gear
for a camping weekend into my Nissan Sentra, and yes I am a fighter! Who
needs pickups? After all ones gear grows to fill space available! Our Baron
once mused that probably the ideal SCA vehichle was a 40 ft hi cube trailer!
I don't even qwant to think about having to store all that gear in my poor
wee house!:-)
Colin

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca