HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kupstas@rainier.cs.unc.edu (Eileen Kupstas)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: short people
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:12:12 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Jul31.002832.2352@igor.tamri.com> anne@igor.tamri.com (Anne Smith) writes:
...........................
>
>I believe from both personal experience and observation of top climbers
>that being short is not only not a handicap but is probably a tremendous
>advantage, particularly on "real" rock.  The "comfort" we shorter
>folk get is a really fun sport we can learn to do very well!  Consider
>the following:
>
>(1) The shorter you are, the better the strength to weight ratio
>    you are likely to possess.  Ants climb better than elephants.
>
>(2) Shorter people tend to have better agility -- consider the average
>    height of gymnasts, both male and female.  
>
>(3) Very few top climbers are exceptionally tall.  If height were truly
>    an advantage, wouldn't we see 6'6' 5.14 climbers?  It's rare to see
>    someone much above 6' climb at this grade.
>
>(4) The only two women in the world (to my knowledge) who have on-sighted
>    5.13 are 5'1.  (Lynn Hill and Robyn Erbesfield)
....................................................
>
>While I would love to cry "reach!" everytime a taller partner
>has less trouble than me on a climb, usually it's simply a matter
>of missing a possible alternative sequence.  
>
>I find that while certainly routes exist which favor tall people,
>these are in fact surprisingly rare.
>
>-Anne
>

I agree that there is often an alternative sequence that makes the
climb do-able for short people. The problem I have is that the 
ratings are no longer in line for me (this may change as I get 
better and pass the magic 5.9 mark). Often, a climb rated 5.6 
is 5.6 _if_ you can make a particular sequence of moves. If you
can't, the climb becomes 5.7, 5.8 or harder depending upon the 
alternate sequence you are forced to use. At my skill level,
the jump from 5.6 to 5.8 makes a lot of difference. The inability
to make a certain sequence of moves generally makes the climb a 
_sustained_ hard climb, not just harder at the crux. In some 
ways, this has been good for me, since I have been forced to 
deal with making a series of "iffy" moves much earlier in my climbing
career than my partner. It shows up on some of the 5.7s and 5.8s now --
I am willing to use a variety of holds and "iffy" moves that
are less comfortable to my partner. He is now learning to deal
with the "barely good enough" holds and the "it's a great hold
if you just keep moving" strategy of climbing. I am also less likely
to get frustrated by a grim looking section of a climb; I know
it isn't going to get better for standing there -- no magic 
"good holds" will appear -- so I don't waste as much time looking
for them. [good thing my partner doesn't have net access :-)

So, I do agree with Anne that being short can be an advantage,
both for the reasons above, but also for the skills you are forced
to learn earlier. 

Eileen






line fodder
line fodder
line fodder
line fodder
line fodder
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2639 rec.backcountry:5682
From: jdalbey@zeus.calpoly.edu (John Dalbey)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Public perceptions.  Was: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:23:14 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

(Brett Maraldo) writes:
>
>	I have an awful lot of people ask me if and when I am going to go
>bungee jumping, in light of the fact that I rock climb.  I found this to
>be an unusual question and can't see why people relate the two.  

I continue to be amazed at the general public's COMPLETE lack of 
knowledge about ANY kind of outdoor experience. Some examples: 

1) Refilling water bottles at top of Nevada Falls in Yosemite, a day
hiker (not even a couch potato) asked where we were going, we said 
to try to climb Mt. Clark.  He said that sounds nice. We said, oh
it's great, off the trail there are no people up there, it's 
pristine and lovely. He thought about this for a minute, then asked
"If it's off the trail, how are you going to get there?"

This person couldn't conceive how you might get someplace if there
wasn't a trail to it!

2) Describing a car camping trip to a friend recently, she asked,
"Since you're a vegetarian, what do you eat when you're camping
if you don't have a barbecue"?  

This person thought the only way you could prepare food in the
woods was by barbecuing it.

3) A friend works at Sunrise Mountaineering, an outdoor store
in Walnut Creek inthe S.F. bay area.  He told me that when the 
clerks answer the phone, they just say "Sunrise", that they had
to STOP saying "Sunrise Mountaineering" because callers didn't know 
what Mountaineering was.

Brett's comment about people equating bunjee jumping and climbing
doesn't surprise me at all.  They are both activities you do
inthe outdoors, and you use technical equipment, so they must
be alike.

I guess the moral of the story is that climbers must make every
effort to educate the lay public about outdoor activities if we
are concerned about the politics of climbing and/or wilderness.
People aren't going to vote for wilderness if they don't understand
why it might be nice to have around.

--jd
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:40:57 GMT


this is posted for a friend of mine...


Commander Brett Maraldo's puzzlement over the climbing-bungee connection  isn't
surprising to me now, but I was once guilty of such generalizations.

Until I started climbing, bungee jumping seemed like a pretty exciting 
activity. I too lumped all such activities into the "thrill sports"  category
and figured that they were essentially interchangeable. Hey, adrenalijne  is
adrenaline, right? This mindset existed in spite of the fact that I'm an  avid
skier, backpacker, hiker, etc. Then, at age 40, I started rockclimbing,  and as
my ignorance ebbed, so did my desire to bungee jump and it rested on this:  to
climb requires both a physical and mental commitment. You don't just experience
it,  you DO it. Bungee jumping happens to you. Some teenager rigs you up,  says,
"Looks good to me, Dude! Go for it!", and you dumbly and blindly leap into 
oblivion. That, to me, is not sport. It is a carnival ride. Sport connotes 
skill development and the application of that skill. I don't mean to sound 
high-minded or elitest, and in fact, perhaps my loss of desire for bungee 
jumping belies a fear of not being in control. However, if you ever saw !
me climb, you'd realize how out of control i really was!

Anyhoooowww, it's true, that the "public at large" views outdoor  activities
such as climbing, kayaking, etc. as the stuff of the lunatic fringe  environuts.
Because many of us are guilty of only associating with our own kind,  we view
the rest of society with as dim and ignorant a view as that with which  we are
viewed. How else could Prez Bush have referred to the Sierra Club as a 
"radical" environmental group and have gotten away with it during the 1988 
campaign? We're out of touch with the mainstream and it hurts us greatly as  a
result. Education and friendship to those who wonder about climbing and  biking
and hiking and diving etc. is much preferably to haughty disdain. I heartily 
await the day when being cool stops getting in the way of being kind and open 
and friendly.

Okay. I'm off the soapbox and back on belay.

 - Don Olson
--
tim schneider                       honeywell air transport systems division
ph: 602.436.3078 fax: 602.436.2252   po box 21111 ms k26e2 phoenix, az 85036
email: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  or  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rayman@lookout.uswest.com (Raymond Goure)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: US WEST Communications
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:14:45 GMT

I guess I don't understand the ego or mentallity of this entire conversation.
If you wnat to do some routing finding knock yourself out there's plenty of 
open spaces for just this sort of exercise. Orientering would afford you 
or your kind all sorts of kicks if you care to indulge yourself in something
more interesting than established deep rutted paths though the woods...

Listen, if these well established trails/paths/freeways are cairned to the nth
degree what does it matter??? Is it possible that the originator cairned the
route that eventually became a trail when you came along, and others contributed
to this effort before our time making the outing more enjoyable for the less
caring environmentaly aware individaul, .... maybe not. 

Here in Colorado we build paths/trails for the handicap which include broad 
wooden walk ways for wheel chair access. Some of these tails are in the high
country and are accessable by all, unlike the rutted cairned path that leaves 
use awake at night. It's all of ours to use and preserve, we can do it toghter 
or apart under one banner or two the way we conduct ourselves in the back country 
defines and profiles this idea. If cairn kickers dont want cairns then work 
something out with yourself its easier than worrying about the next bend in the
trail... who knows, you might even get lost and find your way, because until you
have you don't have the appriciation of anothers contribution to your situation.
So, back to the wooden walk way for the handicap... perhaps you'd like your 
weekend on this trail and the challenge of route finding, do we start the debate 
over which is right and wrong now or sometime later? 

All mountains I've been in are well mapped and documented there isn't a square 
foot in the Colrado rockies that can't be accounted for on topos/videos/books
when I want to do some route finding I study a topo in the comfort of my home
and then indulge myself the walk in the woods as a test to my map reading,
and orentiering skills. When I want a leisurely outing I go to the trail head 
and ramble about the hill looking around for other possibilities (routes) 
instead of the side of the trail. Have a look up once in awhile and you 
wont be burdened with the sight of a cairn.

It's nice to read this healthy debate, 15 years ago it was litter and cigarette
butts that occupied our conversations... things have come a long way and 
everybodys made a contribution... Enjoy it.


Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully)
Subject: Re: bungee
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:54:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.163117.27250@colorado.edu> ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu
 (Gregory Hill) writes:
>Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
>
>>Maybe bungee was invented by an incompetent climber....     :-)
>
>i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
>hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
>anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
>long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
>the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
>(mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?
>
>greg
>

Greg-
 Its not misinformation, at least if you trust my anthropology professors.
I took two different anthro courses in the course of my BS and both showed
pictures of/discussed this.

Chris Tully
cptully@med.unc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: billw@ace.mentorg.com (Bill Wright)
Subject: Re: Climbs for short people
Originator: billw@ace
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:09:14 GMT
Reply-To: billw@sjc.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 



|> In article <1992Jul29.151839.26603@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu
|>  (Ilana Stern) writes:
|> >I went to the gym a lot this past winter with my friend Roy, who's 6'4",
|> >and although usually his height was a blatant advantage, occasional roof
|> >and cave problems were set up to deliberately make it harder for tall
|> >people.  It occurred to me that perhaps this route we did might also
|> >be harder for taller people -- the first natural route I've done where
|> >being small is an advantage!  (The route I'm talking about is Twofers,
|> >on Happy Hour Crag -- tall locals are welcome to concur or disagree).
I don't consider myself tall (6 feet), but I hear shorter climbers 
constantly complaining about how they are at a disadvantage.  This seems to
be a cop out to me.  Everyone one has particular physical limitations.  
Strength and flexibility are affected by genetics.  In my defense I have to
constantly remind them that the best climbers in the world (both male and
female) are short.  In general, smaller people will have a superior strength
to weight ratio.  

|> >Does anybody else have a route to recommend where being short is an
|> >advantage?
Try "Fly By" (5.9) at the Pinnacles.  Some horizontal roof/chimney moves
that are supposedly easier if you are smaller and can scrunch up into the 
roof more.  Certainly a struggle for me.

Bill
-- 
             Bill Wright / bill_wright@mentorg.com

                  "When in doubt, run it out!"
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: the hazards of nude climbing? (was Re: nude swimming question)
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
	<1992Jul29.185328.26298@alw.nih.gov>
	<1992Jul29.231635.19656@csc.ti.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:19:50 GMT


How about those annoying "scorps", chuckwallas, and the occasional
rattlesnake.  Seems like those could be very detrimental on the
"genetalia" when one is climbing in their "invisible lycra"

Not to mention the danger "errant shrapnel" poses while kicking over
those cairns!


hehehe (sorry I couldnt resist!)




--
tim schneider                       honeywell air transport systems division
ph: 602.436.3078 fax: 602.436.2252   po box 21111 ms k26e2 phoenix, az 85036
email: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  or  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
From: brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Webbing
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:55:10 GMT
Organization: intel corporation



	In the mountian tools catalogue they list tubular webbing
400 pounds (145kg) stronger than flat webbing.


Michael
--
Michael Brodesky Internet Mbrodesky@sc9.Intel.com
UUCP : {pur-ee,qanad,oliveb,decwrl,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!brodesky
Sally sold sea shells. Ned Needamyer needled his nose on the nose. 
During the week I climb left to right. On weekends I climb up and down.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:29:50 GMT

I would rather see a single (marked), well used trail, with pristine wilds
to each side, than dozens of use-trails and paths criss-crossing a delicate
environment.  Your mileage may vary.

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: short people
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:57:57 GMT


** "Ilana" == Ilana Stern <ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu> writes:

Ilana> True story:  I was at the gym with Esther, waiting for her to tie in,
Ilana> and watching a guy stretching by the bouldering area.  "Look," I say,
Ilana> "that guy just put his foot practically on top of his head!"  Esther
Ilana> looked and replied, "Oh, that's Christian Griffith."  (Incidentally,
Ilana> he's probably >6 ft. tall.) 

He didnt always used to be that flexible though... At the Phoenix
Bouldering Contest he talked for about 30 min or so on flexibility and
stretching, then went through his routine.  He said it took 4-5 years
and lots of work (stretching sessions at least 3-4 times/week) to gain
that amount of flexibility !

"You just touch your chin on the floor like this..."

  yeah right

"Then to stretch a little more, rotate your hips forward..."

  "sure gotcha covered babe!"
     -- John Long  ("The Art of Leading")

I was suprised by his lack of hamstring flexibility whn compared to
the other ranges of motion.  When he just did a normal "bend over touch
your toes" type stretch he couldnt go nearly as far.  He said this was
one he still had to work on!

me..?  I have lousy flexibility and have a LONG ways to go!


--
tim schneider                       honeywell air transport systems division
ph: 602.436.3078 fax: 602.436.2252   po box 21111 ms k26e2 phoenix, az 85036
email: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  or  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: andrzej.taramina@rose.com (andrzej taramina)
Subject: Four season tent
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:36:39 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 07-23-92 23:47

U(>Sierra Designs Stretch Dome with Expedition fly, 8lbs, 13oz, huge double
U(>hoop vestibule.

I have one of these....and LOVE it.  I use it for extensive winter
camping expeditions (been down below -30 a few times.....the North
Face bags do help!) but I travel by dog team!  Mush!  I love the
clip system which is so much easier to set up than the sleeved
tents.....also allows you to stake down the tent before you erect
the poles (great on windy days).  The construction is superb, and it
does provide a lot of room, specially with the vented vestibule.
Don't think you'ld go wrong with the Stretch Dome, IMHO.

PS.  If you ever want/need any tips on winter camping by dogsled...
     give me a holler!
---
   DeLuxe  1.12 #168   An armed society is a polite society.
   RoseMail 1.70: RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:16:20 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA


> The current
> issue of Rock & Ice contains a news item about "justified" vandalism on
> climbing routes in California.  Ron Kauk, et al. has been working on a 5.14
> route (the Front in Yosemite?) and has inconspicuously reinforced some of the
> more fragile holds with epoxy (injected behind the flake).  A fellow named
> Bachar came by later, noticed the epoxy, broke the holds off the wall with a
> crowbar leaving enormous scars.  Bachar justifies his vandalism much the way
> you justify yours.  
> 
> Cary Czichon
> czichon@csc.ti.com
> 

Not a route, but a boulder problem.  Not the Front, but The Force (from a
Michael Jackson song).  Jerry Moffat did the first (and only?) ascent.  Ron
was also working on it, but hurt his back.  As to the 5.14, I'd guess 5.15 
is more like it.  On boulder problems like this you have to go to another
scale - V11 or B3 maybe?

I think Bachar should face it - his motivation was jealousy.  He ain't top
dog no more.  (But he can still climb circles around all of us.)

Mort (trivia for the day)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: wohfuchi@splash.Princeton.EDU (Wataru Ohfuchi)
Subject: Re: Don Whillans books? 
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:24:28 GMT

>In reference to "carefull with that ice axe" Eugene's post:
>
[l/m 6/22/92] References                Distilled Wisdom (28/28) XYZ
>--------
>|>%A Don Whillans did an autobiography which would probably be good, and
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     |>as well, Dougal Haston wrote a novel, "Calculated Risk" I think,
>     |>but I don't think it was too good (he had a bit part in the
>     |>"Eiger Sanction").
>	   
>	    Did Don Whillans write anything?  Has anyone else written a
>	    biography
>	    on Don Whillans?  Anyone know?  I've never heard of one, but
>	    would
>	    be interested.  'Enquiring' degenerates need to know ....
>
>	    --
>	    Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
>	    / jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
>	    / dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too
>	    badly"
>	    / (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel
>

  Greg Child quotes Don Whillans in his book "Thin Air". It says,
    "Never write anything. You'll regret it."
Well, maybe Don Whillans might regreted it after he'd written an
autobiography. It must be pretty bad. :^)

...Wataru
-- 
  ...Wataru Ohfuchi
     Program in Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, Princeton University
     w1o@gfdl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: gear question
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 01:36:57 GMT

does anyone have any info on the relative stresses that are placed
on the carabiner used to clip pro and the carabiner used to clip the
rope into (e.g. the two carabiners are on a quick draw)? i have been
clipping pro with my older 'biners and using the newer ones for the
rope on the assumption that the biner through which the rope runs takes
a good deal more force than the one used to clip gear. thanks! greg
From: dep1700@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Diane Pagel)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Rolland Waters is held hostage in Seattle
Keywords: Send money now!!!
Date: 20 Jul 92 21:04:49 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle


Hi folks,

I am posting this for a friend, Rolland Waters, who is
currently being held hostage by Starbucks Coffee for
not exceeding his daily quota of lattes.  You can save him
by doing one/several/all of the following:

1.Send Clint Cummin email address
2.Eric Hirst, please send mail (lost your address)
3.Send major beta on Index.

He is alive and has surfaced in the Seattle area, I have
heard. His address is rwaters@spdg.com

Email him, not me.  

Diane Pagel
From: ohbuchi@cs.unc.edu (Ryutarou Ohbuchi)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Keywords: red point, rot punkt
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:27:24 GMT

About "red point", or "rot punkt"

They usually sign the name of the route, not of the climber, for the 1st
ascent.  I beleave it started in Germany, then called "rot punkt".  It 
was not imported as is (as in the case of "a vue" from French), but
rather translated into English, probably because of negative connotation 
of the word "rot" in English (According to Patenaude,S.).
Making red point is pretty common in Germany and in France.  It is easy to
find specific route, esp. from the top of the cliff (as in Verdon Gorge).

By the way, does anybody has privilege to the Sporting Club in Chicago ?
I will be in Chicago for a week for the SIGGRAPH starting this Saturday 
(7/25), and if possible, I want to try the wall at the Sporting Club.  
The hotel I stay (McComick Place) does not have agreement with the Sporting 
Club, and thus I can not visit there without the help of somebody who take 
me along as "a friend of a member" or some such. 

Ryutarou Ohbuchi
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Don Whillans books?
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:57:22 GMT
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center

In reference to "carefull with that ice axe" Eugene's post:

[l/m 6/22/92] References 		Distilled Wisdom (28/28) XYZ
--------
|>%A Don Whillans did an autobiography which would probably be good, and
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>as well, Dougal Haston wrote a novel, "Calculated Risk" I think,
|>but I don't think it was too good (he had a bit part in the
|>"Eiger Sanction").
      
 Did Don Whillans write anything?  Has anyone else written a biography
on Don Whillans?  Anyone know?  I've never heard of one, but would
be interested.  'Enquiring' degenerates need to know ....

--
Greg Jahn, Boise State Univ.|"You'd eat your young alive
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu / | for a Jaguar in the drive.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    / | You lie too much, you lie too badly"
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  / |          - Joni Mitchel
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry