From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Dec17.123507.9663@ac.dal.ca>
Date: 18 Dec 1992 02:00:33 UTC

In article <1992Dec17.123507.9663@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <fWIvyn9@quack.sac.ca.us>, 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec16.180711.9630@ac.dal.ca> 
>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>In fact, there is no way to know whether or not you are dreaming at this
>>>moment. (sound familiar? :) 
>>>I have spoken! :)
>> If one finds oneself in a dream, how would one WAKE UP?
>Awakening is realizing that yes, in fact, you are dreaming. 

That is if there is no "awake" state. Certainly the first *step* is to
realize that you are, or might likely be, dreaming, but then comes the
hard part. And what could this "awake" state be, if it even exists? Aha,
I see said the carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw. Worlds
above and worlds below, no one in the world like ME! Webster's II: awake
3. To become aware or cognizant. Cognizance [ME conissaunce < OFr.
conoissance < connoistre, to know < Lat. cognoscere, to learn]
Cognition: [ME cognicioun < Lat. cognitio < cognoscere, to learn :
co(m)-(intensive) + gnoscere, to know] 
Aware of what? Cognizant of what? Intensive Gnoscere? 
What else can there be but ME!

>As a friend of
>mine puts it: Freedom is recognizing what controls you. Not in a political
>sense or a metaphysical sense, but in an experiential sense. Freedom is
>realizing that the dream that you thought was the absolute state of
>affairs is in fact just a daydream...and that you don't have to live as if
>it were absolute if you don't want to.  

Freedom is nothing left to lose.
What does it mean for a human being to be free of all, free of the human
being? Was Buddha free of the human being? Was Jesus? When a Jain dies,
is he or she free of all, including the human being?

>(note: This isn't what I was getting at in the quoted post...if in fact
>all perception is the dream of some unknown being, who is dreaming that it
>is you, then the dream I mention in this post is kind of a dream-within-
>the-dream)

"We are operating on several levels here." - Ken Kesey.
Is there one master dreamer or are all dreams interlocked, cycles upon
cycles?

>Speaking of Zarathustra (I'm a Zarathustra boosta!), he said the exact same
>thing as the above in Nietzsche's book:
>"Man is something to be overcome! What have you done to overcome him?"
>Z is getting at two birds with one stone, though - 1. "Man" is really
>just an idea, a concept in your head which you have overlaid on
>your experience of yourself and your fellows. 2. Since you have identified
>yourself with that concept, in part, "man" is _you_, and what have you
>done to overcome your own greatest limitation, your infatuation with
>concepts?

Or, how does an authentic person lead an authentic life when it is all
too easy to lead in inauthentic life, all too easy to join the wasteland
of authentic people leading inauthentic lives? There is a lot here in
this simple statement from Zarathustra, perhaps all is there. And,
speaking of the great one, one also must be aware of his Ape. I can be a
good Zarathustra's Ape, I'm not so sure that I can be a Zarathustra. By
the way, where did Nietzsche get this name? It's another name for
Zoroaster. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Wagner changes the name of
Parzival (Perceval - the one who pierces the valley between the two
opposites) to Parsifal for his opera. Parsifal, Parsi - fal, Persian
fool. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

>Dream delivers us unto dream; and there is no end to illusion. (Emerson)

Unless one can draw any conclusions from the religions of the East.
Hinduism: Escape is a flash of light, freedom from the cycles, one with
the one.
Buddha: Escape is right here right now. Go, come back, restore.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24001 alt.atheism:23858 alt.slack:3512