HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: exile@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Heresiarch)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Reply-To: exile@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Organization: The Torch of Chaos and Doubt
	<1992Aug17.182737.14501@odi.com> <5631@transfer.stratus.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:13:20 GMT

ergo, the united states should provide free birth control and
abortions for anyone who can't adequately support a child.
--
<SIG>___________________________________________________________________
It's an old wall, Avon.  It waits.  I just hope you reach it
before you die.                                                    </SIG>
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:53:02 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

mzraly@ra.cs.umb.edu (Michael S. Zraly) writes:

> tries to read to her boy -- he's about 3 or 4 -- and he won't stand for
> it.  He will scream.  He will pick up the book and throw it.

No discipline.  We should be able to live in a world where this mother could
spank her child and not get raised eyebrows and second guessing for it.

You give that kid a good couple of whallops and he'll sit still for story
hour!

                                      - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: vince@athena.mit.edu (Vince Fertig)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:19:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.185501.4534@cs.umb.edu> mzraly@cs.umb.edu (Mike Zraly) writes:
>campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
>When he wasn't working, which was often, he would
>sit at home watching any old dumb show on TV.  Now that he is gone she
>tries to read to her boy -- he's about 3 or 4 -- and he won't stand for
>it.  He will scream.  He will pick up the book and throw it.
>
>But he likes TV.  And when the mother has to get something done,
>cooking, laundry, whatever, only the TV seems to quiet the child
>sufficiently to let her complete her chores.  The TV has become a
>sedative.  My wife gently criticized all this, and her friend just
>said, "Wait till you try raising a child!"

Miss Manners would have something to say about (even gently) criticizing
a mother's performance like this :-) :-).  About a month ago I visited 
a friend of mine who has two children.  These children were extremely
nice, not overly hyper, AND even had an attention span that lasted longer
than five minutes.  One thing the mother has done is to not feed her
children all the sugary foods kids normally get.  No Cap'n Crunch,
Coke, candy, or any of that stuff (okay, occasionally ice cream).  It
just isn't in the house.  The kids now don't even like that stuff!  As far
as TV goes, she is picky about what they watch, preferring either videotapes,
the Disney channel, or public television.  So...perhaps one doesn't need
to eliminate TV, but just encourage kids to watch the right things. Keep
them away from commercial TV that teaches kids to want this and want that,
as well as giving them a very short attention span.  I think eliminating
or at least reducing the sugar intake would probably be very helpful too.

Of course...this woman had done this since the children were very young.  It
might be quite a task to get a child to change diet, and old habits.

-Vince


Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:54:11 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
>>I firmly believe that the single thing we could do that would
>>improve academic performance more than any other single thing
>>is to abolish television.

Amen.

mzraly@ra.cs.umb.edu (Michael S. Zraly) writes:
>Yea, verily.  But it is a powerful medium.  How does not having a TV
>affect your boys relations with his peers, given that TV is such a
>large part of popular American culture?

During my childhood, we had 5 TV stations:  the three networks, the
flagship station of Pat Robertson's network before there was a CBN
(this was Virginia Beach, after all), and a PBS station.

This was the case all over the USA, providing us with a monolithic
electronic "town green" which everyone shared.  Nowadays, most people
have 50 cable channels, of which about 20 have bona-fide programming.
There has been a massive fragmentation of audiences, which no doubt
has happened to an even greater degree among young people than among
us folks who still think there are properly only three "real" TV stations
in the area (4, 5, and 7).

Further fragmenting audiences, and therefore the concept of common
values, is videotape.  My half-sisters 20 years my junior figured out
how to rent tapes and to use a VCR at the age of 4.

It's too bad we can't put this genie back into the bottle and get kids
like Larry's to get together for mutual interaction other than sitting
in front of the boob tube.

-rich
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: The World
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 00:52:29 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>> The reference you are making is probably to my pointing out
>> that the infant mortality rate for black children in Boston
>> is three times higher than that for whites.
>
>So what?

Look moron, you have made it completely clear that you don't care
about anyone but yourself and your "problems".

So why are you here expecting any of us to care about your problems?

Shut up. How's that for an answer to all your questions?


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson)
Subject: Re: Majority funding (was: Sex ed in school)
Organization: Bull World Wide Information Systems, Billerica MA USA
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:46:11

In article <2796555491@dwetzel.mis.stratus.com> usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News) writes:

   When you come down to it, government must stand for the minority more than 
   the majority.  The majority doesn't need defending.  The minorities do.

The wealthy are a minority.  I'd say the government is doing a damn
fine job by the above standard.  Wouldn't you?

Maybe the government should simply stand for a few well-defined rights
and leave the rest to the citizens?
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: Terri Buchman <buchman@osf.org>
Subject: Re: Education, deficits, morals: you can't have it all
X-Xxdate: Fri, 21 Aug 92 08:05:50 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:52:26 GMT

1.	Morals, morals, morals.  I think yours are insufferable. 
You advocate
hatred, intolerance and greed.  I wouldn't want you or anyone
like you 
anywhere near my children.  That's my opinion. 

 Oh -- you disagree?  What's that you say, you are only arguing
for a more
moral America.  How hatred of gays, fear of change and empty,
pointless
rhetoric about "how bad the schools are"  contribute to the
betterment of
NE or America is beyond me, but you are welcome to your
opinions.  
The American respect for freedom of speech and thought extends
even
to the likes of your vacuous rants.  

Or maybe your definition of moral behavior consists of the
net.cowboy 
notion of calling other posters out and ridiculing their
positions.  (Mr. Shein,
it's high noon and I'm a calling you out ---  name calling
only.   No fair
using reason, references or respect in this fight.)

2.	Deficits.  Maybe you haven't noticed, but the conservatives
have been
in the White House for 12 years.  Maybe it's time they actually
did
something about the deficits instead of just throwing temper
tantrums.
I have read some interesting posts from fiscal conservatives in
this
group that actually discussed the issues and discussed the
things
that had been tried that had worked and the one that didn't. 
Real ideas 
have been exchanged and positions explained.  And the really
good posts
don't need to resort to slurs and innuendo to get their point
across.  Maybe 
you have something to contribute about how sopme of the deficit
can be 
brought down?  Nothing that you have posted yet has indicated
that.

3.	Schools.  So what's the solution.  Are you a more money
advocate?  Do
you propose that more control be put in the hands of parents to
control
the agenda of the schools?  Do you favor increased testing as a
measure
of teaching competence?  Are you in favor of schools
incorporating
"morals" courses into the curriculum?  How, exactly, it that to
be
accomplished?  How about condom distribution, sex education
classes,
teacher recertification and training programs?  I would be happy
to debate/discuss, agree or disagree with any actual
recommendations
that you have.  Come on, you should be able to come up with at
least
one real stand.

TerriB.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: lmh@world.std.com (Larry M Headlund)
Subject: Re: War's a funny thing
Summary: Gulf war redux 
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:40:15 GMT

In article <m6ooPB1w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:
	(self-identified liberal advocating force in some situations)

>What's THIS?!?  A "semi-Liberal Democrat" promoting _war?_
>
>I've been waiting for this opening.  When the war in the Gulf was coming to a
>close with an incomplete conclusion, in my mind and the minds of almost
>everyone, all I could think of is how the Liberals would have screamed if we
>went in and "finished the job" instead of sticking with the stated purpose of
>our involvement - the driving out of Saddam's forces.
>
>Can you imagine?  Suppose we stayed for another week or three and sent home a
>few hundred body bags for the effort - can you hear the howls?
>
>No.  At the time, we did what was right.  We finished what we started out to
>do which was free Kuwait in concert with the United Nations and our allies.
>Hindsight is always 20-20
>
	Yes,  everyone's hindsight is accurate.  However,  leading up to the
Gulf War we were told that Saddam was "worse than Hitler",  Iraq was a major
threat to world peace and our security,  we weren't fighting for the Emir, we
were fighting for a just and safe world,  etc.
	So,  we have two possibilities:

	One:  	All the above was true,  in which case not going to Bagdad is
		hard to justify.

	Two:	Some or all of the above statements were handy tar to smear
		the opposition as appeasers and unpatriotic.
		 
>BTW:  It makes my skin crawl to think that the United Nations sets the policy
>for our country.  We shouldn't need U.N. permission to do what we think is the
>right thing.  None of our actions need to be sanctioned by any other country
>or world body.  Subordinating our sovereignty to any other entity is
>tantamount to tyranny.
 ^^^^^^^^^^

Now there's a blast from the past.  That was the word of choice for 
isolationists attacking FDR in the early forties.  Every action he
took to oppose the axis was "tantamount to a declaration of war".


-- 
Larry Headlund  lmh@world.std.com    Eikonal Systems (617) 482-3345
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Homos in school, too?  What next?
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:11:26 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> >This is perfect, though, and a perfect example of where discrimination might
> >be justified, in _my_ view.  Teachers are role models for children; that's a
> >fact we all have to agree on.  Having homos for role models is WRONG!
> 
> So tell us something Murp, Catholic schools have very good records for
> educating kids.
> 
> Yet, almost all their classes are taught by nuns.
> 
> Now, let's consider the sexual habits (ahem) of nuns. None, celibacy.

> So tell us again which friction and exactly when and where and how is
> ok to make a good teacher? And how deeply should we investigate this
> issue?

We're still talking about public schools in this debate, right?  Catholic
schools are attended by children whose parents pay for and share Catholic
values but who STILL must pay for education they abhor while paying for
education they value.

The nuns are celibate because they have taken a vow to remain so to devote
their every thought to God.  Further, they are unmarried.

If Catholics have to fund your view of education where condoms are passed out
to minors, should they expect you to ante up to fund an education that teaches
celibacy by minors?

I assume you are for choice.  Does this extend to school choice?  What is your
stand on a voucher system for education?

                                      - - - Murph

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From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:19:42 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <BZS.92Aug12194305@ussr.std.com>, bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
> One hypocrisy that always bugs me is when we find out, for example (a
> real example) that PCB pollution in the Great Lakes is causing all ...
> 
> In Somalia, right now, there are a few hundred children dying per day
> of starvation and disease caused by famine and endless war...

Well, I tell you Barry. I've certainly had conversations with
Catholics, both lay and clergy, after church (especially when 
there have been $$$ collections and sermons on the efforts of the 
Catholic Relief services and other organizations) on subjects
such as starvation in Somalia, but I would certainly be suprised
to talk to my Pastor about the chemical reactions of PCB's.

The Church regularly sends experts with first-hand experience
in Africa, Central America, etc out to talk to people.

But experts on PCB's, not likely.

-gjc
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Voucher system for education
Date: 23 Aug 92 02:42:08 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

> >Don't you think a better way is to issue vouchers to the parents to spend on
> >the kind of education that is important to them?
> 
> Unfortunately, this voucher system is often used as a way to obtain
> unconstitutional funding for religous schools.  

Ya gotta be careful here, Adam.  The Constitution says that congress shall
pass no law abridging the freedom of, among other things, religion.  This
"wall of separation" between the state and religion to which you allude is a
modern-day contrivance.  The First Amendment reads; "Congress shall make no
law respecting the establishment religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof..."

The gist of it is that there shall be no official religion like there is with
the Church of England.  Everything goes.  Worship sun gods or no gods if you
like.  But, we're talking about education.

Giving parents the money to buy the sort of education they desire instead of
spending it for them is wrong.  These tax dollars are going to be spent on
education in either case.  Let the parent choose which school to send their
children to.  Let the free market decide which schools shall succeed and which
shall fail.  New schools will start up just like any other business starts up.
Simply, a demand is being met by a business providing a valuable commodity.
Its customers will be parents who, seeing EXACTLY how their money is being
spent, will be more inclined to be involved in their kids' education.

                         Your friend in Lawrence, Massachusetts...
                                      - - - Murph

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From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:00:14 GMT
Organization: insert anything here

gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
>murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>> gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:

>> Music is also a Very Nice Thing.  So's home beer brewing.
>> That doesn't mean that either should be taught in school at the expense 
>> of reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

>Schools have plenty of time to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic,
>even if you cut that time in HALF. 

	This is simply not true, as evidenced by the decline of
students performance in these areas over the last 30 years.

>The amount of repetition is over the years in the current
>system amazing. No wonder kids get sick of it.
>No wonder kids just don't see the point and drop out.

	This *is* true, and stems from the fact that we still have
this stupid system of "grade = age" for a set of kids who are not all
at the same educational level at the same time in the same areas.
So, kids who need more help generally do not get it while kids who picked
it up the first time around have to have it 2 or 3 or more times.

>The simple fact of the matter is that more things need to be done
>to make school interesting. Adding more things like music and beer brewing and
>puppet making and performance drama would help make it more interesting.
>Then you would get better results in reading, writing, and mathematics.

	
	No, to make it more interesting you first have to start TEACHING
instead of ENTERTAINING.  You also ahve to gear specific courses to
a specific level of understanding and ability.  This means of course
practically throwing away the school system we have now and rebuilding,
but in the end it *will* have to be done.  The teachers that will not survive
are the ones who don't know the material, who rely on tenure for job
security, who are burned out, and who don't care.

	The other that needs to happen is that standand levels of
proficiency for a subject at an educational level have to be defined, 
and adhered to.  Right now depending on what state you live in
and what district within the state, you could be required to have
almost no education and still get a HS diploma (e.g. you do not
need any math except for arithmetic in New MExico to get a HS diploma...
I had to teach an intro-science college course to these students and
over 60% of them were NOT prepared to take it!)


	The other problem is that for most school systems, more 
emphasis is placed on things like sports teams than education.
For example: how many HS science labs are in any way up to date
in comparison to things like athletic facilities?  For that matter
what's the %age ratio of unemployed science/math teachers to phys ed teachers
or sports coaches?  (My brother has been unemployed as a HS math teacher
for 3 years...  So far the only schools that have shown any interest
have done so because he has experience in coaching basketball.)

	Until we get our priorities straight, things are going to continue
to slip.  


BBC
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: Terri Buchman <buchman@osf.org>
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
X-Xxdate: Thu, 20 Aug 92 13:08:06 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d7
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:27:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.174230.20038@kronos.com> Rich Braun,
richb@kronos.com writes:
>(which jailed the roommate of one of my nearby Cambridge
friends at the
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:33:55 GMT

murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:

	Well gee, Brian... once all the poor kids who dont' come
from two-parent non-poor heterosexual parent families die from
malnutrition because their parent can't get a job at a decent wage
and can't get assistance because you don't think it's right,
and all the "bums" (read: homeless people whose population exploded
during the last 12 years of a "Right" (read conservative) adminstration
die because they can't get assistance to live, and lots of teens
die from AIDS because they weren't taught about it, provided any source
for prevention, and since "good two-parent non-poor heterosexual families"
don't discuss such things... I suppose that that will take off a lot
of the Federal and State Budgets...

	More than once a week I read some story in the paper about
someone who at one time was doing OK, and thru some misfortune
lost just about everything.

	Usually they thought, as Brian seems to, that it would never
happen to them.

	I wouldn't want to wish such misfortune on Brian, but part of 
me can't help wonder how the tone of his insipid whining would change
if he lost his job tomorrow and had to rely on nothing (since government
assistence is only used by sponges) for, oh, 18-24 months?

	You want to help the system Brian?  Volunteer at a soup
kitchen or take on a kid from a single-parent family who could
use the help.  The AIDS Action Committee could also use a lot of help.
Bitching about "them" doesn't make "them" go away.  We can either find
a way to help "them" or I suppose we could kill "them".  I'm presuming
that you're sane enough to not choose the latter.  And given your
postings, Iw ould love to hear your "solution" for the former.
Remember: you can't print the $$$ in your basement.

BBC
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:20:23 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

> >I'll thank you not to lump me in with the bible-thumpers.

> >                        Christianity or compassion begins at home...
> >                                      - - - Murph
> 
> I'm sorry if I am confused, but weren't you using the Bible in earlier
> discussions about sexual practices and abortion? Have I confused you
> with someone else?

I wasn't the man quoting verse from the Bible, if this is what you are
referring to.  He was the man who started the "What does God say?" thread.

                         Your friend in Lawrence, Massachusetts...
                                      - - - Murph

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