HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: tamil3-siddhars and facts 
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:43:36 GMT


        This is continuation of the series on Tamil -facts.


(Ravi Kuchimanchi mentioned about Sanskrit Siddhic poetry.
I would like to know about them.)


                 Poems
                 ^^^^^^

 An important characteristic of early Sangam poems is
the secular nature of the poetry. Zvelebil correctly comments,
"What is so important about these poems is that they are the only example
of Indian secular literature dating from so ancient a period".
Before the composition of Bhakti hymns, Tamil had a long
history of sophisticated poems, grammar, and drama. A. K. Ramanujan*
observes the following about earlier Tamizh poems:

 "In the antiquity and in their contemporaneity, there is
not much else in any Indian literature equal to these
quiet and dramatic Tamil poems. In their values and stances,
they represent a mature classical poetry: passion is
balanced by courtesy, transparency by ironies and nuances of
design, impersonality by vivid deatail, leanness of line by
richness of implication."

*Prof Ramanujan is a Prof at University of Chicago. He has 
translated into English poems from most of the Indian
Languages, including Kannada, Telugu and Hindi.*

         Siddhars: 
         ^^^^^^^^^^

     They are a quite recent phenomena. They represented
a protest and denial of the religious practices and beliefs
of Brahmanism. They emphasized purity of character.
I would like to quote one Siddha poem repudiates the authority
of Vedas and condemns idol worship in temples.

"senkalum karunkalum sivantha saathi lingamum
 sembilum tharaavilum sivan irupaan yenkiReer
 umpatham nithuneer ummai neer aRintha pin
 ambalam niRaintha naathar aatal paatal aakumE"

  Sivavaakiyar.

"You say that Siva is in the bricks and granite
in the red-rubbed lingam, in copper and brass
 If you learn to know yourself first,
the God in the temple will sing and dance
     with you"!


A lot of us have a notion that bhaarathi was the first
to write simple poems in Tamil. Siddhars wrote really
simple and revolutionary poems a long time before bhaarathi.
In fact bhaarathi himself identifies with the Siddhars.

Another classical Sivavaakiyar song is where he simply
refutes the sanskritic-vedic theory of transmigration.
(KZ)

"kaRantha paal mulaipukA kadaintha veNNai mOrpukA
 udainthu pOna sangin Osai uyirkalum udaRpukA
 virintha pU uthirntha kAyum mEndu pOi maram pukA
 iRanthavar piRapathillai illai illayE"

"Milk does not return to the udder, nor butter to buttermilk,
 Nor the life within the sea-shell, when it breaks, to its body,
 The blown flower, the fallen fruit do not return to the tree
The dead are not born, never, never, never!"

----To be continued-----------------
From: sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy)
Subject: Re: EVR alias Periyar - Dr. Srini, pleas read
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:53:39 GMT

In article <Bt94M7.2tB@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> rkrithiv@pima.intel.com (Ramamurthy Krithivas) writes:
>
>
> >>But the funny thing is K. Veeramani who is supposed to represent
> >>'Periyaar principles' has joined hands with Jayalalitha, who is seen
> >>to be representing 'Brahminism'. He goes on supporting her every
> >>move in 'bringing back the brahminism'.
> >>M. Sundaramoorthy
> >>sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>
>  Question.  
>  
>  *** What "Brahminism" is Jayalalitha trying to bring back ??
>
> 
>  Krithi. 

	I sorry for not keeping my promise. Hope this is the last one on
	this thread.

	You have to address this question to K. Veeramani himself, who
	called Jayalalitha 'iyangaar ammaiyaar' and 'warned' the people
	she will 'bring back brhahminism' if wins, before elections.

M. Sundaramoorthy
sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: crathina@norton.uwaterloo.ca (C Rathinavelu)
Subject: New Tamil-English Agarathi
Originator: crathina@norton.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:21:39 GMT

         Thiru. Abdul kapoor (English professor) has written a 
Tamil-English Agarathi after his ten years of hard-work. The
book is published by Deluxe press, Madurai. Words in philosophy,
religion,literature,arts & science etc... are given with actual
meaning/explanation and origin. It is a useful Agarathi to refer
if one is interested in learning the true meaning of Tamil in
English (vice-versa). The book can be obtained from :

          Universal Deluxe Dictionary,
          Author : F. Abdul kapoor,
          Delux publishers, 56 kurinji nagar,
          P-Block, Madurai - 625014, India.
          Price : Rs.180/= (Indian).

Enjoy,
C.Rathinavelu

"Oru punai thiruttup ponnadharkagha sattathin vuthaviyai
nadhinal Oru pasuvai virkumbadi neridhum".

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: bs@wucs1.wustl.edu (Bala SWAMINATHAN)
Subject: Re: seththa pAmpu  [was Re: Arupadai Veedugal!]
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:53:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.233849.20143@menudo.uh.edu> aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu (Venkatachalam Aruna) writes:
>> >In article <1992Aug10.224737.23039@ms.uky.edu>, aras@ms.uky.edu (P. I.  
>Arasu) writes:
>   [stuff deleted]
>
>   Hey! Bala Swaminathan, engE irukkirE? innoru seththa pAmpa
>intha mothu mothuranga, pAru.
> Please, no offence intended to anybody.
>
>Cheers,
>Venkat

OK. You got me. I was also one of the "pAmbu adi gOshti" this time.

ellAm sEndhu indha viLAsu vilAsuranungalE.. en appan Murugan enna
puNNiyam seidhAnO...

pAmbaRiyum pAmbina kAl -- pazhamozhi
pAmbadithavan aRivAn pAmbadiththavan kAl -- pudhumozhi. :-)

S_Bala

Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:869 soc.culture.indian:27890 alt.culture.kerala:140
From: somasun@server.uwindsor.ca (SUNDHAR SOMA             )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,alt.culture.kerala
Subject: Re: I HATE TAMILS
Summary: Hate T
Date: 13 Aug 1992 02:17:39 GMT
Followup-To: poster

In article <l8j7hjINN6uo@skat.usc.edu>, sramacha@skat.usc.edu (Sudarshan Ramachandran) writes:
> 
> "I hate Tamils. I *really* *HATE* Tamils"
> 
> 
> This string is present in the sub-conscious memory locations of most non-Tamilians
> I've known. Civility prevents these people from expressing the above feeling
> overtly, but the point is that this feeling _is_ there. Tamils, aka "Madrasis"
> are, IMHO, the most hated sect/group/community in India. 
   There is a good point here  but overstated. But discussion is required.

> In the North, we are the objects of ridicule. Comedians in movies imitating us
> evoke loud guffaws.
    Infact , I think in north Madrasis are not just not Tamils but they are
 South Indians as a whole. This is more of a traditional statement in the
 sense that Britishers had this as their Southern Capital ( correct me if I am
 wrong ). 
 And interestingly ( rather sadly ) , this particular aspect , I feel has a
 marked impact on the fellow South Indians for they are just called Madrasis
 rather than that of their Statehoods. Well this could only be a small part
 of the reason , the major part is still a puzzle to me . 

 Maybe , the ( strong or even very strong ) linguistic feeling among some
 ( I don't have any authenticity to say 'majority ' ;-( ) Tamils have
 been a little bit over done in order to annoy others ;
 ( Just for the sake , I have a seen a strong feeling amongst quite a few
 of Tamilians here , regarding the superiority of Tamilz among other such
 languages in south , atleast with respect to the age of the language etc. )  
   Again , this is only a part of the reason .


  ( For a humorous reasoning refer 'Affable's posting.!   :-)  )

 Maybe to hit it all Rajiv's assasination could be a reason to bring there
 feelings out . ( CAUTION : I am not trying to put anything out.
 I am using so many  "Maybe's and But' s " ) . Though it is very silly
 to attribute any such reason, it cannot be totally discarded , considering 
 the basic attitude of humans to see things as a group / collection .

  All these are possibilities and more discussions are required.

 Before anything further , I have some basic questions . 
 Is such a feeling is towards Tamilzs alone ?
 Or Is it only there where there are more Tamilzs ( I mean majority ) ?

 For, I feel that it is not uncommon for anyone to have a little anti-feeling
 towards any majority ( or a strong minority ) ? As you have mentioned , like
 Singapore , Bombay etc.. Maybe we are too sensitive and over seeing these ..?


> But now, there is open hate. 
> 
> I sincerely hope this leads to an introspective discussion, and a chance to
> correct ourselves (in case we're wrong).
> 
> Non-Tamils, do send your why-i-hate-tamils / why-i-like-tamils list. I'll post
> a summary.
> 
> 
> Sudarshan.

 - Somasundhar.V.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: sridhar@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman)
Subject: Re: Uniform transliteration: vote pro/con
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:20:51 GMT

vaidhyan@cn.ecn.purdue.edu
writes on soc.culture.tamil:

)viswanath@draco.rutgers.edu writes:
)
)My answers are.
)
)1) yes. 2) ITRANS.

I would be hesitant to use any package that is incompatible with Unix
and/or X. I will explain below.

)I am using this itrans21 for printing tamil, and the quality of
)the output is excellent.
)
)To  use this  package with  TeX, you  must have  a PostScript-capable
)printer,  and Tomas  Rokicki's  latest  dvips package  (see  the FAQ  
)in comp.text.tex for  more info).  (And,  of course, you need  TeX 
)itself!)

Solution for folks with X Windows and DOS with VGA/EGA terminals (286 & higher):

Not quite complete. You can preview the dvi file generated by TeX
(more specifically LaTeX) using xdvi/<fill in your choice of a dvi
previewer>. If you can generate a postscript file using dvi*ps, you can
preview it using ghostview/<fill in any commercial package that fits
your bill>. ghostview is free and comes for DOS too (on 286/386) and I 
have used it on both Unix/X and DOS and its performance is simply wonderful.
Infact if you have a Sun or Iris you can get the binaries to save
yourself from compiling.

If anyone else wants to try out Palladam (using
ghostscript/ghostview), please let me know. I have a .pfa version of
the Mac font. If anyone has worked beyond that, I would be interested
to hear about it. If you are going to mail me asking for it, please ensure
that you have the knowledge atleast to call the font in Postscript and
write raw commands in it to display the characters. An example:
(For more insight, please see Adobe's blue/red books on it)

%!
/Palladam findfont 18 setfont scalefont
72 600 moveto
(ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ) show
72 550 moveto
(abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz) show
showpage

The above will display the said characters (if the font is
pre-initialized for ghostscript) or if the font file is appended after
the %!. I have so far failed to get it printed on a PS printer though
I am sure it can be done.

That is as far as display of transliterated text is concerned. I do
realise that most people here have only character displays (as opposed to
bitmap displays). 

For now, I am sticking to itrans (not specifically for
transliteration but for its portability since TeX is available on many
platforms. But the wntml bitmaps are not pretty enough IMHO. Hence I am
looking out for conversion of pfb or pfa format to mf/pk etc. to make
Palladam usable with TeX. If anyone have seen it in PD, please let me
know. If you can do it for me (in case of a commercial package), I
would be grateful. FYI, Palladam is a Type1 font.

)-Ramesh Vaidhyanathan

Sridhar.

PS: I realise that many people may find the technical stuff difficult to
comprehend. But I can't help it. Transliteration is not the only
factor here.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: ilankai pop song
From: mguruswami@vax1.umkc.edu (Murugavel Guruswami)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:25:55 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri-Kansas City

In article <1992Aug12.143113.13892@menudo.uh.edu>, aruna@tree.egr.uh.edu (Affable) writes:
>  I could recollect only one popular pop song.
> 
>   chinna mAmiye, un chella magal engE
>   pallikkuththAn chendrAlO, padikkaththAn chendrAlO
>   ada vAda marumagA, en azhagu manmathA
>   ......................................
>    aiyO pAvam avalai ondrum sollathE
>    ...................................
> 
> Cheers,
> Venkat
> 

	I am not sure if they call it pop song in Sri Lanka. I think they call
it Ceylon Bailaas. They were written by A. E. Manoharan. I might have a copy
of these songs. If u need a copy send me a mail. If there is sufficient
interest I will post it in the net.

--Murugavel
From: bkannan@ha06.eng.ua.edu (Balaji Kannan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: I HATE S.C.T
Date: 20 Aug 1992 10:18:22 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



>>INDIA IS ONE COUNTRY, ALL ITS
>>LANGUAGES ARE GREAT, TAMIL IS ONE OF THEM. SO LET US TALK ABOUT TAMIL
>>NAD FORGET SUPERIORITY.
>>
>>Dinkar.




>The parallel is irresistible. You folks sound like Republicans, especially
>a Dan Quayle or a Pat Robertson, promoting and mandating family values and
>harmony.


     Dinkar,

           Don't take this guy seriously.  He will even institutionalize
    "commotion", "chaos" and "terrorism" all in the name of "freedom of
     expression" and "individual" rights. As though we were all wholly
    "independent" entities dropped one by one onto this earth and had 
     no connection to each other. BTW, did you note the "You folks" ? :-)   
     
     Just a word of caution.

     anbudan,
     BK


Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:969 alt.culture.tamil:1175
From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.tamil
Subject: EVR, Part 1
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:12:01 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Originator: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca


Recently in the net there have been some exchange of words on EVR.
I am a Tamil from Jaffna and like many others from our region understood
very little about the social revolutions that were taking place across
the Palk Strait during this century.  Popular magazines from TN painted
a very wrong picture of this revolution that I did not have a good
impression of it. (I should have known better.  It is these magazine that
gave description of V.Pirabakaran's funeral procession in glory detail
a couple of years ago :-))

This state of affairs changed when I read a PhD thesis by an American
scholar Charles Ryerson, "Regionalism and Religion, The Tamil Renaissance
and Popular Hinduism" (1988).  The author devotes a chapter on EVR and 
claims EVR is the most important character of TN of the present century.
Here are some excerpts from this theis:

EVR campaigned for the non-coorperation movement of Gandhi and 1921 went to 
jail when he picketed toddy shops in Erode. In 1924 he was elected president
of the Tamil Nad Congress Committee (TNCC) and soon he and his wife 
went to Vaikom in the nearby princely state of Travancore to protest
the ban on the use by untouchables of the roads near the big temple.
EVR offered satyagraha and was jailed twice.  He returned to Tamil Nadu
acclaimes as Vaikom Virar, the hero of Vaikom.  Soon after his return
he was jailed again  for defending khadi, the homespun cotton which Gandhi
was propagating.

In 1925 he became involved in the famous Gurukulam dispute.  Gurukulam
was an orphanage run by V.V.S. Iyer, a well-known Bramin Congressman.
Bramin and non-Bramin students were segregated for meals.  EVR protested
and TNCC refused to pay the amount due Gurukulam for its operating
expenses.  V.V.S Iyer obtained the additional funds from other sources
and Rajagopalachari seemed to support Iyer.  I have already mentioned
Gandhi's support for separate eating facilities.  Soon after, at the
Conjeevaram Conference of the Congress, EVR proposed communal representation
for the Congress Committee.  His proposal was defeated and EVR left the
Congress forever.

(to be continued ....)

Meenan Vishnu
From: gt9911a@prism.gatech.EDU (SUNDAR)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Reservation
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:31:53 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institure of Technology, Atlanta , GO BRAVES

people think a person can use the reservation eventhough his parents might
have used the samething to come to a good stature. I for one feel the group
of people using this benefit seems to be same. I wish there were some more
deserving people who could use the seats. For example there was a student in
my college whose father was a rickshaw puller. So that person needs that
reservation and it has helped one family. At the same time you have also some
people who are well off economically to the extent of owning few cars. If that
person uses the reservation to get the seat in the professional college is it
justified?.
       One example which I have heard from my father who works in Ministry of
Labour. He had gone to inagurate a special FREE coaching for sc/st and he
was saying most of the students there arrived in nice cars. the intent of the
program is good, but the economically affluent people used the benefits.
       Another point which has baffled me is, even if people get into the
services through reservation, does it mean even in the case of promotion he
has to get special priority. This happened in which one guy superceded about
100 people just beacuse he belonged to a particulat cast rather than his
abilities. So you think such an environment would lead to good working conditi
on. I think these things make us more divided rather than united. The only 
thing which I can remeber which one of my professor used to say
"It is easy to differentiate and very difficult to integrate".
I think that also applies to life.
Let me say here that i am from Anna University and I do not think there is
much difference between cutoff of BC and OC (it is not called Forward cast).
But main problem arises when a BC candidate can come through OC he comes
through OC. So inturn you have less seats to compete for.I have seen that the
trend in Madras is to study in CBSE schools and try to do professsional
schooling outside the stae.
 
Hope this starts some fruitful discussion. 
******************************************************************************
SUNDARARAMAN VAIDYARAMAN               * *   IF MY MIND CAN CONCEIVE IT   
SCHOOL OF CHEMICAL ENGINEERING         * *   AND MY HEART BELIEVES IT   
GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY        * *   THEN I KNOW I CAN ACHIEVE IT       ATLANTA GA 30332                       * *                 -Rev Jesse Jackson  
*******************************************************************************
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1002 alt.culture.tamil:1183
From: lkumar@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: EVR - Part II (Atheism)
Date: 16 Aug 92 21:17:32 EDT
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

article <16AUG199209302886@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu>, shivakl@ctrvx2.vanderbilt.edu (LAKSHMANAN SHIVAKUMAR) writes:
> In one of his articles on EVR Mr.Vishnu mentions EVR
> advocating Atheism because Lord Krishna preached casteism
> in the  Bhagavad Gita.
> 
> If the above is true, then EVR ideally fits the description
> of a short sighted person, who due to his inability to find
> the basic cause of the problem (casteism) uses Religion as
> a scapegoat.  KRISHNA NEVER PREACHED CASTEISM AS IT IS BEING
> FOLLOWED TODAY.  The vedas divided people on the basis of the
> work that was done by them and preached a slightly different
> life style for each of those divisions.  We sure should
> expect the life of a warrior to be different from that of a
> scholar or a business man and this is what the vedas did.
> NEITHER KRISHNA NOR THE VEDAS PREACHED UNTOUCHABILITY.  These
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Excuse me, here .. Something  I had read comes to
	my mind. How will you expalin this ?
		Lord Siva comes as a Pulaya confronting
		Adi Sankara in a narrow path way ...
		And Sankara avoids him ... (may be, giving
		all the repect :-) ...

		After some exchanges ... Lord Shiva show his
		true figure and Sankara apologizes ...

	If this is TRUE ....
		Sankara was acting against religion ????

> are evils underlying the present society and religion cannot
> be blamed for these.
> 
> To conclude, EVR appears to advise the cutting of of the head to
> cure headache.  (I am sure he must have made a great doctor!!).
> 
> Regards,
> Shivakumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: kaaval theivam
Reply-To: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:31:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.001801.15117@syd.dit.CSIRO.AU>, kumar@syd.dit.CSIRO.AU (V.R.Kumar) writes:
>In article <BsqvIn.L0A@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvishnu@morse.waterloo.edu (m vishnu) writes:
>>Thamils in TN are suffering from a serious drug (cinema) addiction problem.
>>The solution is not to replace the present set of drugs with newer
>>(better) ones, but to ban them all.
>>
>>[Stuff Deleted]

>>Meenan Vishnu
>
>My reply to Nagarajan's posting also applies to your above posting
>Mr.Vishnu. 
>
>Mr. Vishnu, ethanaal thamizhanukku thalai kunivu aerpattu ullathu
>endru koora mudiyumaa ? Ulagaththil ulla makkalil eththanai paer
>Thamizhagaththin nilamaiyai pattri paesukiraarkal ? Oru nadigan
>ulagathin munnani naadaagiya USAvai aanda poethu evarum kurai 
>koora villayae !!! Thamizhagaththai pattri kurai kooruvathu thamizharkal.
>Thamizh endra mozhi irukkirathendrae pala paerukku ivvulagaththil
>theriyaathae !!! Aanaal ippoethu nilamai appadi illaiyae !!!
>Thamizh naadai pattri theriyaamalaiyae anaivarukkum thamizh endra
>mozhi ullathu endru theriyumae !!! Eppadi ??
>I do not want to coment more on this.
>
>Please stop generalizing friend !!!
>
>It really hurts.......
>
>Read my reply to nagarajan posted to the net clearly. Understand the
>facts, rather than blaming or making fun !!!
>
>
>Anbudan,
>
>V R Kumar
>

Dear Mr.Kumar,

There is nothing wrong in electing an actor as president or chief minister.
But it really stinks if people judge him only by the roles he took in his
movies. Do you really believe that American people voted for Reagan only for
the image he portrayed in his movies.

Don't worry, Tamilnadu(or Andhra) is not the only place where people are this 
stupid. Do you know that the actress who acted as Seetha in the TV series
Ramayan is now an M.P. How about Amitabh, Raj Bapper, Shatrukan Sinha, Sunil
Dutt, Rajesh Khanna.....

- Arunkumar.
>-- 
> V.R.Kumar (Ramkumar Venkatachalam)                                 
> CSIRO, Division of Information Technology                         
> P.O.Box:1599, Macquarie Centre, North Ryde, NSW 2113, AUSTRALIA  
>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil