From: ekho@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (amanda rothman)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Unbe Awakens
Date: 25 Dec 92 19:15:47 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

mjmh@crsa.bu.edu (Michael J M Holmes) writes:

[Moral decision to save bandwidth :) ]

> "I think that most peoples morality develops and changes - the basis for
> their morality may be one aspect of their religion, then a few years later
> it may be an individual who inspires them to be moral, then they may
> have a period where they remain moral but don't attribute it to anything - 
> then they may eventually return to their original religion, yet base their
> morality on another aspect.  Was there a *constant* basis for morality,
> that this person kept missing, or had and then lost?  I don't think so.
> I feel that if we want to, we constantly grow and develop and deepen
> our understanding of morality."

  Becoming quite interested in where this conversation is going, Ekho 
comments, "What you just described pertains very much to myself.  I was 
created by ones called Clone Masters, a very religious bunch because of 
their belief in the sanctity of life and how all life is linked.  I might 
have shared their beliefs were I not programmed to the contrary... Then, 
as you say, I met a group of individuals who "inspired" a new morality of 
my own.  I do not attribute it to anything... If I were to return to my 
original "religion", it would mean I have gone full circle, adding to the 
growing pattern I have noticed throughout my life.  This makes a great 
deal of sense to me.  Did you learn this from a psychostrategist, 
perhaps?"
> 
> "I still feel leery whenever people equate religion and morality.  Morality
> always deals with actions of some sort, (so I feel there is always some
> pragmatic content to morality) and by linking it with religion it
> becomes too easy to use these definitions to condemn some peoples actions
> as immoral whenever they differ from your individual religion or belief.  
> (I don't mean you personally, John, I mean in general!)"

  "Being as there is little or no religion in my time (religion is 
dangerous to the Federation as it breeds hope and belief in something 
other than the rulers and their right to dominate their citizens), I 
don't see an absolute connection between religion and morality.  Religion 
may influence morality, but they are not one and the same.  But religion 
is not the only catalyst for condemning others for not being "right".  
The words "traitor" and "terrorist" comes to mind... I knew there was a 
reason I detest politics..."
> 
> "And the idea that there *must* be some universal constant for morality - 
> that's a philosophical argument from many of my philosophy classes that
> never quite convinced me that it made sense.  When you declare that there
> is a universal system of morals that all actions are to be measured against,
> you then open the door for arrogance, bigotry, oppression... since people wil
> declare that *their* philosophy or religion is based on *the* only morality,
> so yours *must* be wrong, and it can be proven, since there is only *one*
> moral code in this universe."

  "Using Amanda's belief in an infinite universe, it follows that there 
can be no universal constant, unless that constant is infinite, itself.  
> 
> "I'd just like to plead for understanding - aside from the religious or
> philosphical considerations, when people put these beliefs into
> *action*, when moral considerations get turned into pragmatic
> events and decisions, this is the crucial point that I worry about.
> People who wear their moralness on their sleeve, or people who
> look down on nontheists as unable to be moral (or, perhaps worse,
> acting moral but for the *wrong* reasons)."

  Ekho snorts and mutters, "Sounds like some of the individuals I have 
come to know in my early life..."
> 
> "When we get to the point where people turn this from discussion
> into right/wrong games, then nobody is helped."
> 
> /* notices that he is towering above everyone, as a result of the
> soapboxes growing under him.
> 
> "Fudgesicles!  I did *not* mean to get this preachy!  Especially since
> John isn't at all the type of person I worry about.  Sorry to use
> your statements as a jumping-off point for all of this, John!"
> 
> With that, the purple guy asks for some help to get off of these
> darned soapboxes...

  Glaring at the soapboxes which had made yet another attempt to elevate 
her position, she gives /* a hand down by giving his soapboxes a look.  
They quickly form into a staircase, allowing his descent.
Newsgroups: alt.callahans