From: yangze@acf3.NYU.EDU (Ze Yang, , , )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: What About Tibet? (Re: What about China done to Korea)
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:30:00 GMT
Organization: New York University

fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:

|>I have always thought that the Chinese people are polite, courteous
|>and most of all civilized. That's why I married a Chinese. That was
|>probably why my mother married a Chinese.

Thank you so much for you thought the Chinese people are "civilized", why
don't you make such a statement in your previous post? You even believe
the Chinese soldiers often force the monkes and nutes perform sexual
intercourse in public, that means our understandin on the word
"civilized" are so different. 

|>My recent posting about the the atrocities the Chinese have done to
|>the Tibetans has obviously upset a lot of Chinese. I thought the
|>Chinese has more class than bombarding fellow human with abusive
|>languages. Perhaps, I underestimate the effect of CULTURAL revolution.

I know a chemistry Professor here, in his talking, he uses alot of
words like fu*k, he said science is not for gentleman anymore. anyhow,
languge is used to express one's mind, in some cases, no words are 
better than "BULLSHIT".
|>My simple questions to my Chinese friends:

|>1) If you all claim that Chinese atrocities to Tibetans never occured
|>as published in foreign press, why not open the area for free information
|>gathering?

You should always keep this in your mind: Xi1 Zang4 is our teritory.
We don't owe you that just like your backyard don't owe my inspection.

|>2) Why do you all believe in the Chinese government publication about
|>Tibet while totally rejecting those in foreign press? I chose to honor
|>the Tibetan version because they are the ones who suffer, I tend to
|>give them benefit of a doubt. Again, the truth can be settle very
|>easily just by letting free foreign journalists to gather news.
|>Until then, all the Chinese gov report should be considered as
|>nothing but distortion.

You are implying that we can only get information from the Chinese goverment.
We have friends work there, I have also relatives live in Xin1 jiang1,
I visted there once.
You are also implying that those free foreign journalists have no
bias, actually that's not true. The most recent example on this
is the drug rumor on Chinese athlete. And also we can not guarantee
all the foreigners are only journalists. 

|>3) If the Chinese government can committ gross human right violation
|>to its own fresh and blood (The Tienanmen Incident), Why do you find
|>it's incredible that the Chinese government will be even more harsh
|>to the 'babarians' out west?

That will encourage separating movement. 

|>4) If the Chinese soldier can hit the monk's head with the rifle's butt
|>in front of foreign journalist's camera, Why do you find it's incredible
|>that they will be much more cruel in the jail where no one can see their
|>action?

First, I don't believe this story. Even if it's true, it's only an
isolated event like the Los Angles' case.
There are alot of Dalai Lama's follower in India ( most of the
are formal slave owner), they might make such a film.

|>5) You all claim that Tibet is a province of China as a historical fact.
|>I'm sure that Tibetans will not agree. There's a stone inscription in 
|>Tibet portraying the agreement between a Tibetan king and a Chinese
|>King recognizing each other national soveriegnty and friendship 'forever'.
|>To me, this is quite an evidence that the Chinese recognized Tibet as a
|>nation of it own long time ago. But, I'll go further, Why does the
|>Tibetan need the Chinese recognition to be able to call themselve a nation? 

Why are you so sure? As I said before, westeners are self-centered.
Even Dalai Lama has signed document with CCP.
Your last question is like:
  Why south Carolina needs the Union's recognition to be able to
  call themselve a nation?

|>They existed as they existed, that should be enough to get respect to be an
|>indepentdent nation. Even if they were really a part of China all along,
|>Why can't they demand independence now? What if the Mongol claim that
|>China used to be part of Mongolia?, I'm sure none of you would go with
|>that. As a matter of fact, large part of Southwestern China use to be
|>provinces of Thailand. What if Thailand claims Southwesthern China as 
|>China claims Tibet?  The prosperous Nan-Choa kingdom (in present day
|>southwestern China) was also of Tibetan people; can they claim back
|>their land? Of course not, it's ridiculous to do so.
|>How far back in time do we go to use history as our 
|>pretext for selfish acquisition of territory ?  Seems to me, we go
|>as far as our military might allow us to.

If you lived in Lincoln's time, you definitely would have a debate
with President Lincoln.
You should study American history first before talking about foreign
country's affair.

|>I hope some of my Chinese friends will enlighten me in civilized ways
|>to my questions. We are all fellow human beings. We all want happiness;
|>none of us want sufferring. But it has all along been our nature that our
|>happiness is more important than other people's happiness. Why can't we
|>open our heart and see the sufferring of the Tibetan people. They have
|>existed uniquely as a nation for so long, why can't they continue to
|>exist as such? I used to hear the phrase "Those who have no respect
|>for themselves will not respect others", it didn't seem very deep to me.
|>As I think more and more about the phrase as I get older and older
|>having more and more insight into things (still far from being able
|>to call myself a 'learned' man), I begin to realize the deep philoso-
|>phical implication of this phrase, more and more. I ask that my
|>intelligent Chinese friends, collectively as a nation, search their
|>souls and learn how to respect themselves as a nation. Until then,
|>all you will have is national pride and patriotism which will cause
|>more and more suffering to anyone you come in contact with.

If you really care about suffering, you should pay more tention to
those war zones, find a reason for those wars. You know how many
people lost lives in the Iraq war?

You must also don't know how many lives lost in the American
civil war, let me tell you, that is 600, 000, 2% of the population
of the country. The war is for the Union not for slavery, as said by
president Lincoln.

My learned man, leave us alone. We want happiness.



Ze Yang