HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: MLB Standings and Scores for Wed, Jul 22, 1992
From: guilford@otago.ac.nz
Date: 23 Jul 92 11:48:46 +1300
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand


> NATIONAL EAST
> Pittsburgh Pirates    51    43    .543    --      5-5    Lost 3  28-21  23-22
> Montreal Expos        48    46    .511   3.0     z6-4     Won 2  23-22  25-24
> New York Mets         46    48    .4894  5.0      6-4     Won 1  25-22  21-26
> St. Louis Cardinals   45    47    .4891  5.0     z4-6    Lost 4  22-19  23-28
> Chicago Cubs          43    50    .462   7.5      3-7     Won 1  22-22  21-28
> Philadelphia Phillies 39    55    .415  12.0      3-7    Lost 2  21-24  18-31

So how come there isn't more exciting analysis on who's going to win
this division?  It seems like a fun race, even the Cubs could still
get hot, especially if they could dredge up a couple OF's who can hit.

What are the historical odds of the Pirates winning from this position?
Anyone have any idea?  I'd guess about 40-50 percent, but it's just a
guess.  Someone needs to enter the date and result of every ML game 
ever played and run a very large regression.

Based on pre-season, I would have said the Mets should be the team
to emerge from the pack.  Obviously Hojo and Saberhagen have been
disappointments, and having no offense at C and SS doesn't help.  The
decision to let Anthony Young roll to a 2-9 record doesn't look very
astute.

Now of course the top challenger looks like the Expos.  I guess I figure
it's a lot more likely that Gardner and Nabholz will come on big in the 
second half than Cardinal guys like Tewksbury and Clark will continue
to pitch well.    

As an old Cub fan, I'd like to see them win, and the Buechele trade is
wonderful --

         Cub 3B since Steve "one to one and" Ontiveros:

         1980 Len Randle
         1981 Ken Reitz
         1982 Ryno
         1983-1985 25 homers and plenty of range
         1986 Cey Speier Trillo Lopes
         1987 Moreland
         1988-1989 Law
         1990 Salazar Ramos Wilkerson
         1991 Salazar Walker Scott Vizcaino
         
-- but of course with the Vizcainos and Dascenzos and Mays and so on
eating up PA's, not much hope.  Maybe Kal can have a colossal second half
and carry them -- their pitching isn't all that bad.  Boskie is not a 
very good pitcher, but the 32 runs he's allowed this year (after 13 starts)
isn't why they're under .500 ....
 
Anyway, any guesses?  There are lots of (implicit, not in anything I've
said, really) exciting questions here for discussion in the NLE race, 
fellas, only a few of which involve responding to some moron who doesn't
understand the ideas behind statistical and non-statistical arguments 
and doesn't care that he doesn't.  And this is just one of 4 very 
interesting races!

> Seattle Mariners      37    58    .389  20.0      4-6    Lost 4  21-26  16-32

First draft pick time again!

> Cleveland Indians     39    55    .415  18.5      4-6     Won 3  19-26  20-29

You can tell if the Indians are winning the value of the first draft pick
must be very, very high!

Bill Guilford
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey)
Subject: The Red Sox
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:51:32 GMT

Believe it or not, I live in a city that has
_two_ teams worse than the Red Sox -> LA.

My neighbors complain to me and act like I have it good
because I am a true Red Sox Die hard!

Makes you want to move to Atlanta....

jeffp
From: jortiz@tagore.helios.nd.edu (The Candyman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Braves-Royals Trade
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:37:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Jul22.173745.15082
Reply-To: jortiz@tagore.helios.nd.edu (The Candyman)
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame

In article <1992Jul22.141638.16439@menudo.uh.edu>, chee1l5@jetson.uh.edu (Sam Lane) writes:
|> The Braves sent Juan "Senor Choke" Berenguer to the Royals for
|> Mark "down the loss" Grant.
			^^^^^
Shouldn't that be "Career Year" Davis?

|>			  Both bullpens should be greatly enhanced by 
|> this blockbuster move.
|> 
|> Sam
Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So it WASN'T a bad dream after all!!

Augh! 

The Candyman
From: yl44729@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rick Lin )
Subject: Re: Dawson, was: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:15:37 GMT

Dawson an average defense player?  He's still one of the best defensive  
outfielders around.  He still has enough speed to run down most fly balls.
His arm is still one of the strongest and most accurate.  25 HRs is not bad
for any power hitter and so is 90-100 RBIs.
From: rrmst3+@pitt.edu (Roberto R Molinari)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:29:03 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Jul24.163317.19085@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <5091@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>>If, for example, there is a software
>>engineer, say, who not only does his/her job, but is prone
>>to help others in time of need, be an information resource to
>>the department or company, go out of his/her way to help on extra,
>>people-oriented work (volunteer work on the department policy task
>>force, or whatever), and so forth.  I would expect this engineer
>>to be more highly valued (and more highly paid) than the engineer
>>who does his/her job but nothing more. 
>
>I can have first-hand knowledge of whether a software engineer I work with
>does these sorts of things.  I can't in baseball.  I also have first-hand
>knowledge of whether those things do indeed help make the others in the
>group more productive.  I can't in baseball.
>

Just because you can't have first hand knowldege of it doesn't make it okay to
ignore it IMHO.  There is no hard-fast method for rating a player's performance,
but that doesn't stop people from trying.  The data to do this type is more
readily available so people do the analysis based on stats.  But might there be
a way to model a players influence on a team?  Unfortunatly I think the only
players you could do this for are those that change teams frequently, and 
those usually aren't very interesting.  But I'm not convinced that you *can't*
find out how a player helps his team outside of statistics, its just a very
difficult problem.   

Alsom, by ignoring it, your stats may loose value.  Hypothetically speaking, if
Frank Thomas is a real jerk in the clubhouse who is always causing problems and
one day gets in a fight with a teammate, say Jack McDowell, and breaks his
arm, wouldn't that devaluate Frank's overall worth to the team.  

just my 2 cents

bert 
-diehard sox fan (red that is)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard)
Subject: Re: mays, morgan & pinson
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Laurentian University, Sudbury, ON
Distribution: rec
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 03:20:15 GMT

In <1992Jul24.834.40088@dosgate> stephen.dawson@canrem.com (stephen dawson) writes:

>Last year there was a trivia question posted that asked what three
>players had, over their careers, hit 2,500 hits, 250 home runs and
>stole 250 bases.

>Those players were Willie Mays, Jow Morgan and Vada Pinson.

>Can someone with a reference post their exact vareer numbers? And
>what team(s) did Pinson play for?

Mays   - 3283, 660, 338
Pinson - 2757, 256, 305
Morgan - 2517, 268, 689

Pinson played for 58-68CinN 69StLN 70-71CleA 72-73CalA 74-75KCA

>Many thanks!

>    STEPHEN
>    ^^^^^^^

> stephen.dawson@canrem.com
> Entered 07-24-92 at 7:16pm in Downsview, Ontario

> * DeLuxe2/386 1.25 #3969 * Conformity obstructs progress.
>--
>Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
>World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
-- 
roger maynard                    
91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Reasonably priced good team
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:26:34 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul29.213254.23833@leland.Stanford.EDU> bohnert@leland.Stanford.EDU (matthew bohnert) writes:
>In an aside to the common practice of assembling (usually) high-priced
>`Dream Teams', my friend Juan and I today went about the task of
>creating what we thought was a pretty good team of reasonably priced
>players.  

This is really very similar to trying to pick an expansion roster.  The
overlap between "cheap" players and "unprotected" players is quite large.

Let me take a stab at two "cheap" rosters that might be competitive:

		NL					AL

	Don Slaught		C		B. J. Surhoff
	Ben Shelton		1B		Randy Milligan
	Jose Oquendo		2B		Scott Fletcher
	Dave Hollins		3B		Randy Ready
	Jeff Blauser		SS		Craig Grebeck
	Keith Mitchell		LF		Tony Phillips
	Steve Finley		CF		Bernie Williams
	Matt Stairs		RF		Warren Newson

For the pitchers, just pick the top 5 cheapies on Steve Smith's "unluckiest"
list that have below-average park-adjusted ERAs.


-- 
        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
From: jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Home/road differentials (was ARTIFICIAL TURF: EMBARRASSMENT)
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:34:07 GMT


In article <1992Jul28.174902.10846@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>
>You twist the numbers yet this is the best you can come up with?  A
>2.5 win advantage is *quite* significant.  So it won't win you the
>division every year.  But it is a considerable advantage.
>
>But you are basing this calculation only on the advantage they hold
>over the next closest team.  It makes more sense to compare their
>advantage to the average home-field advantage.  And isn't *that* about
>a five-game difference?

Ok Ok, I thought that normalizing the Twins' advantage to KC's (the
closest team to the Twins in terms of home-field advantage) would help
isolate the dome effect.  I was wrong.  Here are Glenn's numbers (AL
only) with two additional columns.  The first (Adj-H) is the adjusted
home winning percentage (what the home record would have to be in order
for the team to have a League-average home/away differential).  The
second (Games) is what the home record adjustment means over a 81-home-
game season ((Home - Adj-H) * 81).

Team    Home   Away   Ratio  Adj-H  Games
====    =====  =====  =====  =====  =====
Min     0.557  0.410  1.359  0.493  5.212
KC      0.580  0.453  1.280  0.544  2.890
Tex     0.523  0.411  1.273  0.494  2.361
NY AL   0.566  0.460  1.230  0.553  1.074
Cle     0.485  0.396  1.225  0.476  0.742
Det     0.581  0.479  1.213  0.576  0.440
Bos     0.575  0.476  1.208  0.572  0.246
Oak     0.568  0.473  1.201  0.568 -0.029
Mil     0.546  0.460  1.187  0.553 -0.546
Chi AL  0.546  0.461  1.184  0.554 -0.643
Sea     0.488  0.413  1.182  0.496 -0.669
Bal     0.513  0.457  1.123  0.549 -2.927
Tor     0.581  0.519  1.119  0.624 -3.453
Cal     0.532  0.491  1.084  0.590 -4.697
AL AVE  0.546  0.454  1.202

And yes, the Twins advantage over the League average is 5.2 games.
And if you believe that a "2.5 win advantage is *quite* significant,"
then please also note KC's 2.89 game advantage and Texas' 2.36 game
advantage.

>                         Five extra wins, every year, from the turf
>and the roof.  If that isn't enough to get Doubleday to roll over in
>his grave, I don't know what is!

I don't think Doubleday is rolling just yet.  The data doesn't tell
us much about where the wins are coming from (turf, roof, whatever).
There's also the question of the home-field advantages of KC (turf,
but no roof), Texas (no turf or roof) and Seattle (turf and roof, but
no home-field advantage).

>
>-Valentine
>-- 
>If Plantier goes, I go!				tedward@cs.cornell.edu

-Jeff    jjd@cray.com
--
"They that give up intentional walks to obtain temporary double-
play possibilities deserve neither outs nor double-plays."
-Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Baseball Almanac"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mard@quads.uchicago.edu (Adrian N. Marden)
Subject: Re: Clever Quote (Was: Warning to Sheffield Fans in S.D.)
Reply-To: mard@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:46:50 GMT

In article <carl.711732116@warper.jhuapl.edu> carl@warper.jhuapl.edu (Carl Lamy) writes:
>>[comments on value of stats deleted...]
>Valentine, Valentine, Valentine, when will you ever learn? (sigh) Joe
>Orsulak is the man, and watching him get important hits while the rest of
>the O's (Brady excluded) do nothing is all the proof real Orioles fans
>need. Don't give me his OBP and OPS stuff. 
>
>All TRUE Orioles fans, or for that matter, all TRUE b'ball fans, think Joe
>is the tops (of course, you are to be forgiven, as you think that the
>Bosox are a real baseball team and so obviously let your emotions get the
>better of you ;->)

	OK. Try this. I have Bradu Anderson, Cal Ripken (Jr.) and Joe Orsulak
on my Rotisserie team. Last night I'm at Comiskey Park watching the O's 
stick to the Pale Hose, and Brady walks, hits, scores, steals, etc., Cal gets 
a sac fly and a run scored, and Joe Orsulak gets a useless double with no one 
on base. Now THAT's the sign of a great player. Hell, Leo Gomez and Glenn 
Davis homered. Couldn't Joe do something useful? I guess his high BA is nice
(I certainly don't mind) but the truth is, the guy hits near the end of the
order because he is not a PRODUCTIVE batter. Period.
	And Doug, don't let Brian know that I said this. I've been defending
Joe Orsulak for weeks now, despite much ribbing from my evil roommate and 
Rotisserie foe.

					Nick
From: gritter@cs.purdue.EDU (Carl R. Gritter)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Montreal Alou/Rojas
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:44:59 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

In article  <1992Jul28.121817.3444@spcvxb.spc.edu> surrey_d@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:
>I  am still trying to find out when  Moises
>Alou is coming off the disabled list and\
>who is Mel Rojas' father?

Sorry, I have no answer the Rojas question.

Moises Alou played last night against St. Louis.  He was eligible to
come off the DL early last week but remained there until the weekend.
This prompted the confusing demotion/release of Darren Reed which
happened and then didn't happen (was he recalled off waivers?).  All
because Reed all of a sudden started hitting well (he was really never
given any kind of chance to play regularly before).  Instead they
sent Bill Landrum back to Indy (a very fortunate turn of events
indeed!).

With Alou coming back and Reed playing well, this gives Felipe Alou
the luxury to rest Larry Walker until his rib cage injury is fully
healed (I hope it doesn't take as long as it did Barry Bonds).

The current Expos outfield of Walker/Grissom/Alou/Reed/Vanderwal has
been very impressive lately and is certainly among the best young
outfields in baseball.

Carl
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 24 Jul 1992 10:43:24 CDT
From: Howard Wachtel <U13054@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
 <mcmath-210792074432@mcmathmac.nlm.nih.gov>
 <1992Jul23.202814.23407@tamsun.tamu.edu> <3644@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>

In article <3644@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) says:
>
>In article <1992Jul23.202814.23407@tamsun.tamu.edu> rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu
>(Jack McKinney) writes:
>
>>     Angels and Ministers of Grace defend us!!! Andre will bat 1.000 in any
>>game he plays against the Cubs after what they're doing to him!!!
>???
>
>What exactly are the Cubs doing to him?

   Not offering Andre more than a one-year contract.  And not winning (not
that the expansion team would win anything before Andre retires).
________________________________________________________________
Howard K. Wachtel              University of Illinois at Chicago
U13054@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU        Phone (312) 975-7970
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: pyacm@trentu.ca (A Colin Morton)
Subject: Re: ARTIFICIAL TURF: EMBARASSMENT TO THE GAME
Organization: Trent University, Ontario
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:51:26 GMT

In article <21JUL92.08541720@wums.wustl.edu> peirick_j@wums.wustl.edu writes:
>Quick anecdote:  Rain delay here about three years ago.  Bob Costas and Mike
>Shannon killing time during the shower.  Mike Shannon observes that since
>the game is taking place on artificial turf with a new drainage system, the
>delay after the rain stopped would be minimal.  Bob Costas responds that
>yes it's true, and it's the beginning, middle, and end of the list of good 
>things about artificial turf. 

Doesn't Mile High Stadium in Denver, with real grass, have a
state-of-the-art drainage system that works (theoretically) better than
squeegying (?) artificial turf dry?  Doesn't this thing work even better
when the field is tarped during the downfall?

I recall hearing somthing about this a few years ago; I believe it
involved physically suctioning the moisture down through the turf into
drainage tiles.  Can somebody who knows better than I please explain
this to me?

Colin.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: twromero@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Michael Lin)
Subject: Re: Info needed
Originator: twromero@fangorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 22:38:09 GMT


In article <1992Jul28.173135.26150@encore.com>, dtodd@wizard.encore.com (Donald Todd) writes:
|> 
|> A group of co-workers were having a discussion and the topic of Oriental
|> Baseball Players came up.  We were wondering if there were any Oriental
|> players in MLB.
|> 
|> Someone suggested that Rafael Belliard (SS, for Atlanta) may be Oriental,
|> even though his name implies that he may be Hispanic.
|> 
|> Does anyone know what his nationality is?
|> 
|> Thanks!
|> 
|> -Don
|> 
|> Please send responses to dtodd@encore.com
|> 
|> 


   Yeah, I think, Rafael Belliard is hispanic. Of course, sometimes
the term "oriental' is a bit ambiguous. Do you consider a Filipino a
hispanic or oriental?  They can have either Spanish or Chinese or Japanese
blood. There is no right answer to that. I think most 
problably Belliard is either from Central or South America if not from
the US. There was a fellow by the name of Dave Lum who used to play for
the Reds in the 70's. I think one of the coaches of the current edition
Giants is Kim who I believe is Korean, he may have also played pro balls
but not sure if he ever made it to the Majors.

Michael
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jld@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (J. L. David)
Subject: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:55:56 GMT

In article <92206.104324U13054@uicvm.uic.edu>, Howard Wachtel <U13054@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> In article <3644@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) says:
> >
> >In article <1992Jul23.202814.23407@tamsun.tamu.edu> rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu
> >(Jack McKinney) writes:
> >
> >>     Angels and Ministers of Grace defend us!!! Andre will bat 1.000 in any
> >>game he plays against the Cubs after what they're doing to him!!!
> >???
> >
> >What exactly are the Cubs doing to him?
> 
>    Not offering Andre more than a one-year contract.

Oh, right.  The Cubs (or any other team) should offer a 38 year old
average right fielder with bad knees a 3-year deal.  Get a grip.
He's lucky the Cubs are offering him anything.

>  And not winning (not
> that the expansion team would win anything before Andre retires).

Yeah, and Dawson is one reason they don't win.  Between his mediocre
production in the cleanup spot and his mediocre range in right field
he is not an asset.  The man has great work habits and is a wonderful
human being but he is at the point in his career where he is going
to go downhill rapidly.  Let him go.  He's a $3 million waste.

Jeff David
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: Don Soucy <AB47@UNB.CA>
Subject: RE: Most fascinating ballpark?
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:58:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.105936.17801@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> kirchner@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Robert Kirchner) writes:
>
>Which is the most fascinating, most impressive ballpark for watching a ML-game?
>
>Don't rank by home team, but criterias like noise made by cheering fans,
>support when team plays not very well, show, entertainment before the game
>starts and during breaks, music, architecture, tradition, ...
>
>.My vote goes to Wrigley Field.  I've only been there once, but when
  I entered the stands I thought I had died and went to baseball
  heaven.  And, despite all the Harry-bashers on the net, I'm glad
  he stayed around long enough to be at that game to lead us in
  "Take me out to the ballgame ..."  My daughter and I were
directly under his booth, and we can belt out a good one in the
stretch when we're at a singing ball park.

  I don't know what I can say about Wrigley that would be news to
anybody on the net.  There's certainly the architecture and the
tradition, the ivy and the rooftop bleachers of the neighbourhood.

As for entertainment before the game -- why do we need hoopla when
there's batting practice, autograph hunting,     sitting back watching
the ground crew, or trying to catch foul balls?  Between inning
entertainment, especially the loud, all-flash kind,  I can do without.
(Perhaps it's old age -- my daughter loves it and she enjoys watching
the game just as much as the next person.)

Now, I should confess that I grew up going to Fenway.  Perhaps it's
familiarity breeding unappreciation, but I think Wrigley edges out
Fenway.  One problem with Fenway is that it's getting very run down.
The concession area, the old seats, the bathrooms, all could use a
few dollars of investment.


>.
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cone threw how many pitches?
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:47:57 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <Jul.27.15.47.35.1992.8185@remus.rutgers.edu> zelek@remus.rutgers.edu (Grey Wolf) writes:
>   
> Who says that making a pitcher work a little harder will shorten his career?
>There's considerable debate going on these days on whether or not it's the 
>LACK of consistant use that does a pitcher in these days.  Not terribly long
>ago staff aces used to throw 20+ complete games a year and well over 300 
>innings per season.  That's probably enough pitches for almost two full
>seasons in today's game.

But how many of them were throwing 150 pitches in one *game*?  I could
easily play hockey an hour and a half a day, every day of the week (if
I could afford the ice time).  But playing 4 hours every Sunday would
absolutely *kill* me.

Besides, the game was different then.  Pitchers didn't go all out
on every pitch.  Probably less stressful.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
If Plantier goes, I go!				tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball