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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:29:57 -0500
From:         Dr Nancy's Sweetie <kilroy@GBORO.ROWAN.EDU>
Subject:      Three Short Notes

Scott Weberg writes:

> Dr. Nancy's Sweetie (sometimes known as Darren F. Provine) makes an
> interesting point: people with liberal (by this I assume he means
> non-Christian) ideas and liberal moral beliefs must be a majority of
> the population.

I assert no direct correlation between political ideas and Christianity,
except where those political ideas include advocating demonstrable genocide
or other gross injustices.  Christians can and do disagree, often strongly,
about the political implications of the Gospel.

 *

John Woolley wrote:

> [T]o imply, as Darren (I think) did, that the current state of the
> Constitution reflects the current will of a majority of the people is
> simply absurd.

My comments were not directed to a simple majority, but rather an overwhelming
majority.  Some political rhetoric, especially from preachers, carries with it
the impression that all the fuss is being caused by two dozen homosexuals in
New York, and if it wasn't for those few troublemakers everything would be
fine.  Whether politically-conservative Christians are a majority or not, they
are certainly not an overwhelming majority.

 *

With all this talk about obeying the Ten Commandments, I wonder how many
Christia participants make any effort at keeping the Fourth Commandment,
which orders abstaining from work on Saturday.  Do any of those who seem
to feel that we should obey the Ten Commandments actually keep all Ten?


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.rowan.edu
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:43:58 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tithing

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
>Subject: Re: Tithing
>Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:05:24 GMT

>>If all Christians would tithe, the church would have so much money, there
>>would be little excuse for missionaries having to come back home because of
>>lack of financial support, or a soup kitchen closing down for the same
>>reason.

>Amen, brother.

It's a shame that when missionaries come back home for a well-deserved time
of rest and renewal, they have to spend all their energy running from
church to church asking for more support.  The whole system of "deputizing"
is exhausting, emotionally and physically.  Moral of the story: Every
believer should give *sacrificially*.
--
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:08:01 -0500
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Marinava
              27 Jan 1993 12:20:25 EST from <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>

Regarding Marinava:
I would think also Dan, that this must be Maranatha. Now I do not claim
to be an expert, and will gladly defer to anyone who knows otherwise:
But I believe that Maranatha was a greeting given in the early church
which loosely means "Come, Lord Jesus". I dont have my Greek NT handy,
but I believe it is Greek.

I know of several Christian schools, churches and other institutions which
use the name Maranatha in our area. As a matter of fact, I was saved at
a church called Maranatha Baptist many years ago. Of course there is
Maranatha music which has been putting out some wonderful praise and
worship music for many years.....God Bless....Mark
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:30:08 EST
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Rush Limbaugh

You know, I really hate to bring this up as a discussion topic, but I
really think that we're being just a bit childish over this Rush Limbaugh
thing.  Some of like him, and some of us don't.  Whether or not we like
him is not going to have any effect on our salvation.  Why bother taking
up bandwidth over trivialities?

I can see Paul writing to us:

  I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
  that all of you agree and that there be no dissentions among
  you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same
  judgement.  For it has been reported to me that there is quar-
  reling among you, my brethren.  What I mena is that each of you
  says, "I belong to Rush," or "I belong to Clinton," or "I belong
  to Bush," or "I belong to Christ."  Is Christ divided?  Was Rush
  crucified for you?  Or were you baptized in the name of Clinton?

How about we quit this silly wrangling over inconsequential things
and get back to the business of Christian living?

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:25:57 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ten Commandments.

(deleted material)

>Seeing what Dan is talking about now makes me understand his view better.  I
>still say we should keep to the 10 commandments as best we can.
>
>John <><

Yes, we should strive to obey the "10" commandments, but not for the sake
of gaining any righteousness of our own. All that we have, including our
eternal salvation, is a gift from God, by His infinite grace.

Jim Coen
coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:09:46 -0700
From:         "Glenn Radinsky S05152@doc.flc.colorado.edu"
              <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Evolution and other things

Dear all:

     Gareth McCaughan has posted a pretty good essay
regarding the merits of evolution.  There are lots of really
good posts on both sides of the fence of this matter, and it
comes up for discussion here a lot (since I am in a pretty
durned secular college campus).  I used to wrestle with this
a lot as a Christian, and then I realized that I usually
have far more important things to concern myself with.

     My point is that it makes very little difference to me
personally if the planet is 5 thousand years old or 5
billion years old.  I am still called to accept the Lord
Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, I am still called upon
to love others as myself, and I am still called upon to lead
a life holy and pleasing before the Lord.  The age of the
planet and exactly how God made does not seem to be relevant
to do doing this (at least to me).  I am not taking anything
away from what Gareth said, I am just stating that it would
probably be better if I concerned myself with not thinking
that thought or not belittling my neighbor than with the age
of the planet and exactly how the Lord brought this about.

                         God Bless,



                            Glenn
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:28:15 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tithing

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
>Subject: Re: Tithing
>Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:45:47 GMT

>Jon states..
>>Moral of the story: Every believer should give *sacrificially*.

Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET> writes:

>What if the believer spouse does not believe in giving and does not
>want him/her to pay tithes? I surpose some would quote the one hand not
>knowing what the other is doing, but this has not worked so well for me
>in the past.

When Jesus spoke about one hand not knowing what the other is doing, he was
speaking against giving in such a way as to draw attention to yourself -- I
certainly don't think it means we should conceal it from our spouses.

Yvette, do you mean when the believer's spouse is an unbeliever, or a
believer who does not want to tithe?  I will proceed under the assumption
that you mean when a believer is married to an unbeliever...  There needs
to be a balance between submitting to your spouse and submitting to the
Lord's command.

I would say that since God's Word does not specifically command that we
give a certain percentage, that you should work out a compromise with your
husband.  Do not do anything that would harden his heart against coming to
the Lord.  God is not lacking in money, but He yearns for your husband's
salvation.  Submitting to him in the name of Jesus may open his heart to
the Lord.

--
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:12:00 +0000
From:         ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU
Subject:      Re: My definition of a "cult"

Steven,
What are CRI and CRJ?
Also, it is impossible to rely "on Scripture alone" for doctrine, nor has
anyone ever been successful in really placing "Scripture above tradition"
when it comes to faith and practice.  Even the great historical beliefs
of the Christian Church are often not found in their final form until
hundreds of years after the New Testament was completed.  One can debate,
however, whose traditions are closer to the original intent of the Author
of Scripture.

--Greg Aist
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:39:16 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ten Commandments.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Tauber)
>Subject: Re: Ten Commandments.
>Organization: The University of Western Australia
>Date: 24 Jan 1993 13:59:48 GMT

The Rabbis see the Ten Commandments as a summary of the 613 commandments
of the Mosaic covenant (Torah - law in NT) and actually put each of the 613
under one of the 10 commandments.
I thank Dan for clearly pointing out that the commandments in the Torah
are not binding on us as parties of the New Covenant (although I disagree
with Dan on other issues relating to Israel).

I think a helpful point to make is that although none of the 613 commandments
are binding on us, they do express God's mind on certain issues. If God
expresses a hatred for divorce it has nothing to do with the Mosaic Covenant.
God just hates it!

I also think it might be helpful to remember that Jesus' earthly ministry
is really not the place to look for understanding Gentiles and the law.
All the people that Jesus talked to about the law were Jews and hence
bound to follow it. When we also remember that the majority of non-Pauline
epistles were written to Jews the best place to look for an understanding
of Gentiles and the law is Paul.

We must also be careful not to err in the other direction and take Paul's
very strong words against the law as being for Jews. I think also of
the decision (discernment would be more accurate) of the Jerusalem Council
that Gentiles need not be circumcised. We must remember that the issue
was *Gentile circumcision*. And the lesson Peter learnt from the vision
of the unclean animals is not that Peter was free to eat unclean animals
but rather "God has shown me [Peter] that I should not call any *man*
unholy or unclean".
Paul rebuked Peter about his attitude to Gentiles not his attitude to
following the law. Paul doesn't say forget the law , he points out that
the law has nothing to do with salvation or sanctification. (Gal 2)

We can learn from reading a covenant between God and Israel irrespective
of whether the covenant is binding on us or indeed has anything to do
with *us* at all, for covenants reveal the nature of their parties :
and the Torah of God is certainly holy and glorifying to Him for
it is written "the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and
righteous and good" Rom 7.12

God Bless you all (especially you Dan!)

James Tauber (Yaakov ben-Avraham)
An ambassador of Christ

jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest
you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has
happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in and thus
all Israel will be saved." Romans 11:25,26a
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:36:21 -0700
From:         jww@EVOLVING.COM
Subject:      Looking for a word ...

Does anyone know a word that means the Prophets and the Writings, i.e.
the rest of the Old Testament besides the Law?  Thanks!
-- Fr. John
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:26:07 +0100
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@LOGIN.DKUUG.DK>
Subject:      Shevardnadze

Some of you may be interested in this:

Eduard Shevardnadze, the former Soviet foreign minister and now
president of the Republic of Georgia recently informed a visiting
Danish pastor that he was now a Christian and had been baptized
a couple of months ago.

Yours in Christ,
Claus Tondering, Denmark, ct@login.dkuug.dk
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:45:01 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ten Commandments.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
>Subject: Re: Ten Commandments.
>Organization: University of Pennsylvania
>Date: 25 Jan 93 17:09:21 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%93012207523494@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
 GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM) writes:

>I think it should be pointed out that it does not make any difference
>whether the Ten Commandments are commands or suggestions, they are not
>applicable to the New Covenant Christian.  In 2 Cor. 3, Paul calls them a
>"ministry of death."  Now, why on earth would you want to keep a ministry
>of death?  Am I saying that we are free to do as we please?  No, because
>Paul makes it clear that we are Christ's, and that we should walk as the
>elect.  The ten commandments are not our guide, Paul is.  I think it would
>be good for us to remember that the OT law is a dead issue, not meaningful
>to us except as it shows us we are dead in our sins.  It has no power to
>save, nor to keep saved, nor to prepare us for heaven, nor for anything at
>all except as I just noted.

It's one thing to say the OT has no power to save us, and it's another to
say it has no power for anything at all.  It has the power to teach us a
great deal about God, about us, about the nature of man, about how God
would have us live.  We are not bound by it in terms of salvation, but I
certainly don't believe that God would no longer have us honor our
parents, avoid adultery, etc.

I also don't agree that Paul is our guide ... maybe I just don't
understand what you mean by that?  We're no more bound to his teachings
than we are to OT teachings, in terms of salvation.  But we can profit
greatly from both.



--
I can identify with steelworkers.  I can identify with workers that have
had a difficult time.      -- Former Vice-President Danforth Quayle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:51:52 -0500
Comments:     Resent-From: "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Comments:     Originally-From: "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Countries Turning to God

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
In response to the abortion thread:

I remember in hight school, and right afterward (1980-81) I knew a
fellow who was quite the ladies man. He actually feared he had two
girls pregnant concurrently. This guy practically budgeted abortion
money into his income. A little bit more expensive than condoms, but
worth the extra fun I suppose, to his twisted reasoning. The little lady
he was dating when I last had contact with him had just undergone her
fourth abortion.

Just the other day I was talking with a lady who works in my building.
knowing that we had a new baby, she began to discuss the joys of little ones.
Not knowing whether or not she was a Christian (still not sure), I mentioned
the sonograms and the wonder of birth, and how I could not understand the
abortion crowd's sick reasoning. Well, she told me just how she agreed. She
also said that she has a teenage daughter, senior in high school. She told
me that her friends just consider abortion to be routine birth control. Just
no big deal. She said one of her daughters friends had just completed her
SIXTH ABORTION!

I certainly claim no medical expertise whatsoever. So I
will gladly bow to any medical professional on Christia if I'm wrong. But I am
told that an abortion so destroys uterine tissue, that after one abortion,
chances of a successful pregnancy carried to term is seriously impaired. After
two, I am told that it is way against the odds, and after three it just
is very doubtful, even dangerous to get pregnant. Carol (former abortionist)
said that no real statistics are known on the true carnage of abortion
aftermath. Wonder why? Sobering Thoughts......Mark
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:43:33 +0000
From:         "G.J. McCaughan" <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Principles of Interpretation

One book I've seen which I think deals well with this sort of thing
is "How to read the Bible for all its worth", by (I think) Stuart and Fee.


--
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: multiculturalism
Date: 23 Jan 93 17:07:18 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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I generally dislike "isms."  I would like to comment on multiculturalism though

It is nice to see that finally some folks are trying to be a little more aware
of the diversity of culture in the U.S.  I hope it doesn't boil down to
cultural relativism, but sensitivity and the ability to realize that there are
different things going on in the U.S. is good.

This is too complex of an issue to talk about here.  It is about time that
someone is doing something about these cultural  issues in the U.S.  It may
seem at times that the majority culture is taking it in the proverbial shorts.
Like there is no way you can be right.  Well, welcome to the club.  That is the
experience of many Native Americans, Blacks, Hispanics, and others in America.
God is giving us the chance to walk in the other man's (or woman's) shoes.

We have got to learn to live together.  We Christians should be the example.
We don't have to be the same culturally do we?  Thank God, no.  Don't mistake
American culture averages for Christian culture.  Learn about the alternative
ways of structuring life other cultures have.    Peace, zane.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:31:48 -0500
From:         John Violette <violette@APXTG03.APEX.DG.COM>
Subject:      Re: Tithing

I say, do you want gross blessings or net blessings, refering to Malachi 3:8...

If all Christians would tithe, the church would have so much money, there
would be little excuse for missionaries having to come back home because of
lack of financial support, or a soup kitchen closing down for the same reason.
Tithing is easy once you get into the habit of doing so.  The real church needs
the money, not the big televangelist or health wealth guys.  Support your
local church before you support someone elses.  Am I going off on a tangent or
what?

John
 <><
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:34:51 -0500
From:         John Violette <violette@APXTG03.APEX.DG.COM>

Christia:
        My wife and I are trying to reach my wife's spiritually lost sister.  I
have written a letter to her once explaining the Gospel to her using a
computer.  This was months ago.  I have found an article that would possilby
be of interest to her and would like to write another letter to her.  My
question is this, should I hand write the letter or type it?  The letter needs
to go out today, she is in a desperate situation, and I already wrote the
letter by hand.  I see where I could improve it but hate to write this 3 page
letter over again.  The improvements are minor points.  But in the future,
should I handwrite or type?

John <><
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:41:54 -0500
From:         Claude Garner <TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject:      Cults

   My understanding of what defines a cult is that a cult is usually
characterized by fanatical allegiance to a human leader, e.g. Jim
Jones and Rev. Moon. I guess in that sense that Mormonism and Christian
Science can be defined as a cult in that they tend to emphasize the
teachings of Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy over scripture or in
addition to scripture.
   We had a charismatic group start a church in our area that grew
rapidly for a time and then started to lose members. It turned out
that the pastor was interested in attracting only young couples or
people who owned successful businesses. He had a select group within
the church who acted as a buffer between him and any members who
might be critical of him. The church bought a bookstore and started
an adoption agency, both of which were successful. A few months ago
the pastor resigned, sold the bookstore and left the area with the
profits from the bookstore. Needless to say, the church quickly folded
and a call was made to other churches in the area to take over the
adoption agency. I believe that this church was actually a cult, although
it did not depart greatly from accepted Christian doctrine.
    The point I would like to make is that although an organization
may espouse sound doctrine, if the focus is not on Jesus Christ rather
than one charismatic leader, it should be viewed as a cult. This
particular church was doing a very good work in the community but
they were focused too much on a self-serving pastor.
                                               In Christ,
                                               Claude Garner
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