HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Re: The Motorcade, the TSBD, and LHO
Keywords: conspiracy or coincidence?
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 00:43:37 GMT

jfb200@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (joseph.f.baugher) writes:

>The subject of this  note  is  an  answer  to  one  of  the  recurrent
>questions which come up again and again in alt.conspiracy.jfk--namely,
>could LHO have possibly conspired to take that job at the Texas School
>Book  Depository just so that he could be able to take shots at JFK as
>he rode past the building?

[...discussion on choosing motorcade route]

>On November 18, the Dallas press  reaffirmed  the  downtown  motorcade
>route, and mentioned that the motorcade would move west on Main Street
>through the downtown area.  However, on that same day, Secret  Service
>agent Forrest Sorrels made a slight change in the motorcade route--one
>which was to prove fateful.  He decided that the motorcade should make
>an  abrupt  right  turn  onto  Houston  and  then left again onto Elm.
>Supposedly, Elm Street provided better access to the Stemmons  Freeway
>than  did  Main.   This  route change unfortunately brought JFK's limo
>right in front of the TSBD.

[...]

>So, the earliest that anyone could have known that the motorcade would
>pass  in  front  of  the  TSBD was November 15.  And the earliest that
>anyone could have known that the limo was going to make  that  fateful
>dogleg onto Elm Street was November 19.  Since LHO had started work at
>the TSBD on October 16, it is impossible that he or anyone else  could
>have  conspired to have him take that job at the TSBD just in order to
>be in a position to get a clear shot at JFK when he came to Dallas.


No sane Secret Service Agent would pick a route that would force the
Presidential Limo to slow down as much as the turn onto Elm
Street did. Could it be that people who had a 'patsy' such
as Oswald set up the route down Elm to ensure the perfect
head shot from the grassy knoll?

If the Limo had turned down Main, the 'crossfire' from the 
grassy knoll, TSBD, and Dal_Tex/County Records Building would have
been impossible.
From: sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: the umbrella man question solved by the HSCA?
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:43:58 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht,  The Netherlands

In <1992Apr15.004801.5407@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon) writes:


>In a previous article, sdevries@fys.ruu.nl (Sjoerd de Vries) says:
>>
>>Come to think of it: imagine you being the president, sitting in
>>a limousine traveling through Dallas, where you see this guy opening
>>and closing his umbrella. What thoughts will immediately cross
>>your mind?
>>1. umbrella
>>2. -> Chamberlain
>>3. -> Muenchen
>>4. -> treason
>>5. -> I'm a traitor
>>6. I'll never do it again! Oh lord have mercy!
>>
>>Sounds unlikely to you? Same to me. More suggestions?

>Being in Europe, you are in a good position to ask some people who were
>around in 1963 or better yet in 1938 if they would have perceived the
>simple display of an umbrella as a comment on any given leader's treason/
>capitulation/appeasement of enemy forces. If it would not have "read" as
>a symbol, i.e. communicated the intended meaning, in a European context,
>it would have been even less likely to do so in the U.S. (I agree it
>sounds farfetched)
>-- 
>		Full frontal nudity? Yes, I'd do it if it was
>		valid ... er, if the money was valid ... and
>		if it were a small part.

Well, I asked and it seems that nobody remembers chamberlain carrying
an umbrella. However, most of my colleagues had more experiences with
pampers than with prime ministers, at that time.

                       --------
                          SdV

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Sjoerd C. de Vries				| If all else fails |
| Utrecht Biophysics Research Institute		| we can whip the   |
| Dept. of Medical and Physiological Physics	| horses' eyes      |
From: hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: VCR alert II
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:13:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T


Assasination of JFK, Saturday, A&E.

I saw some VCR alert before for 20/20 program on JFK assination.
Just thought that this is important information for people who read this group.

- Lin
From: mst4298@sigma.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Head Shot - Lead or Copper Jacketed Bullet?
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:16:00 GMT
Organization: Incontinental Blather, Inc
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

(David Wright) writes...
>mst4298@summa.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd) writes:
>|david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright) writes...
>|>mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd) writes:


>|>||Also, Lattimer's skulls shot off the top of the head, and made 5-6 pieces. 
>|>||Kennedy's head had long, fractures running all about the bottom of the skull, 
>|>||and only a few large pieces. The fragmentation *within* the skull is not
>|>||characteristic of a non-FMJ. 

>|>|	That's odd, since Lattimer's book includes x-rays of several of
>|>|	his test skulls that show the extensive fracture systems seen
>|>|	in JFK's skull.

>|>Not at all. The pictures there show pieces of skulls, they don't show the
>|>type of fragmentation within the skull that is common with dum dum type
>|>bullets. 

	And the x-rays and test bullets show the kind of fragmentation that
	seem to be common with certain FMJ designs ;->. Now, where have
	you leared sooooo much about the cranial fragmentation patterns
	of dum-dum bullets?

	Finally, I return to the fundamental. Skull tests conducted
	by Lattimer and	Olivier independently of each other show
	that 6.5mm FMJ bullets fragment in the fashion seen in 
	the JFK assassination.



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From: mst4298@sigma.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Neuro-Muscular Reaction
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:32:00 GMT
Organization: Incontinental Blather, Inc
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <14397@pitt.UUCP>, geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes...
>I think all this debate about the nature of the "neuromuscular
>reaction" of JFK is a waste of time. There is no scientific evidence
>that such a shot to the brain results in any such neuromuscular
>reaction.  It is merely the speculation of one of the pathologists
>who was trying to be helpful.  


	No scientific evidence? Au contraire, monsieur! Read _Hearings
	of the HSCA_ vol I around page 400 or so (right after Drs. Baden,
	Wecht, and Petty testify). Specifically, read Sturdivan's testimony.
	More specifically, read up on the goat film contained therein.


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From: mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Questions
Keywords: New info on JFK assassination
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:18:00 GMT
Organization: Incontinental Blather, Inc
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <schuck.702686935@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>judy@ethel.mitre.org (Judith S. Sider) writes:
>>In article <schuck.701901719@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:

>>>Who else was shooting that day in Dallas? The answer is that
>>>the tape is a genuine recording of what went on in Dallas.

>>  ...But even if the recording did contain gunfire, how do you make the leap
>> from the dictabelt *possibly* recording sound from a minute after the
>>assassination to the dictabelt *definitely* containing the assassination shots?  

>After hearing the tape, there is no doubt in my mind it was gunfire.
>You could even hear the echoes of the shots.

	I've heard the tape, both the processed version and the raw
	version. On the latter, all you can hear is static and motorcycle
	noises, even when you know what and when to look for. Of the
	'shots', they sound like they could be gunshots, but they don't
	sound characteristically like gunshots, particularly those of
	a high-velocity rifle.


>The *only* problem with the tape is that there was some information
>on it that came from about one minute after the assassination.

	No, that's not the only problem. There are other thigs, like a 
	distinct lack of sirens until well over a minute after
	the 'shots' sound, even though all of the DPD officers
	(including McClain, whose microphone is supposed to have
	recorded the shots) swear that they flipped their sirens on
	seconds after the shots were fired.
	


>If you've seen the dictabelt drum, it would be easy to explain
>this away with a double recorded track. The assassination could have
>been recorded, and then the needle tracked over the information a 
>second time. Since no one was shooting a minute after the
>assassination it is easy to assume the rifle shots recorded *were*
>the genuine article. 


	aboslutely, positively incorrect.

	The sounds (actually Sherrif Decker talking) that overlap the
	"shots" were aired over radio channel 2. The "shots" were
	recorded on channel 1. Channel 1 transmissions were recorded
	on a dictaphone system. Channel 2 was recorded on a device known
	as a Gray Audiograph (which seems to be some sort of disk
	recording system). Now, how does a signal on the audiograph
	get recorded onto a dictaphone, when both are recording
	completely different signals?
	


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From: bill@falcon.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Post Office Box
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:00:44 GMT
Reply-To: bill@platypus.uofs.edu
Organization: University of Scranton, Scranton, PA

In article <4APR199221235613@rigel.tamu.edu>, ajs9462@rigel.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE) writes:
|> WC report, there are several pieces of evidence for him using that alias. For
|> instance there is a picture ID (selective service system notice of
|> classification) with the name Alek James Hidell and Oswald's picture (on page
|> 574). This ID and others were found in Oswald's wallet after his arrest.

This I will have to go see.  I held many Selective Service cards and not 
one of them had my picture on them.  As a matter of fact, when I was still 
under 18, they were used frequently by underage drinkers as "proof of age" 
for the very reason that they didn't have a picture and provided only a 
vague description of the person they were issued to.  

bill

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@platypus.uofs.edu   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     bill@tuatara.uofs.edu    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (The Cookster!)
Subject: Re: The Fourth Force -- initial CIA "expansion" via 40s Pentagon War Plans
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 10 APR 92 09:24:28    


In article <167C4B756.MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu>, MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes...
>>
>In other words, this work is so well researched, so scholarly, and so
>above critcism that no ordinary journal could publish it; only a glossy
>mastrubation manual had the necessary wherewithall. Uh-huh. That's it;
>I'm dropping my subsciption to the NYT, who never get these good stories,
>and subscribing to "Gallery". Say, maybe "Jugs" has some good data on
>the Rockefeller commission, too...

	The information in those articles is nothing new to anyone who
	has taken the time to actually go read a book on the subject.
	I see your very well versed in the names of these magazines
	by the way. I'll save the insults for later.


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

 Peter R. Cook			Mystic Powers new EP - Life in the Fast Lane 
 Digital Equipment Corp.	now available. Inquire within.
 Littleton, MA.

 G.A.F. Productions		"1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
 Clinton, MA.			 Welcome to the 90's where the government's
				 your mother!" - Scatterbrain

 Flames not welcome. Serious inquires only. Opinions are mine, all mine!
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: That moot misaligned sight
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:15:57 GMT
Organization: AT&T

A.S.Chamove@massey.ac.nz (A.S. Chamove) writes:
>We all know how easy it is to bump the sight and have it twist
>slightly. If this were done it may have had a scratch mark where the
>t-sight was twisted against the set screw. Any report of such a mark?
 
From the WC testimony of Robert A. Frazier, FBI firearms expert and head of 
the team which investigated the rifle characteristics (3/31/64):

	"... on the back end of the scope there is a rather severe scrape
	which was on this weapon after we received it at the laboratory,
	in which some of the metal has been removed, and the scope tube
	could have been bent or damaged."

Moreover:

	"... [the scope mount] was loose on the rifle when we received 
	it. And apparently the scope had even been taken off of the rifle, 
	in searching for fingerprints on the rifle. So that actually the 
	way it was sighted-in when we got it does not necessarily mean it 
	was sighted-in that way when it was abandoned."

Overall, the performance of the rifle (other than the scope problem) was
deemed excellent and equivalent to then modern military rifles (e.g.,
the M-14).

Also, he stated that the amount of misalignment initially observed may
have coincidentally compensated for the amount of lead that the Z313 shot
would have required, assuming it came from the TSBD. In other words, the
assassin could have placed the crosshairs directly at his target, the lead
being built-in. 

Source: WC Hearings, vol. III, p. 406, 411
----
Joe Knapp     jmk@cbvox.att.com
From: rlg@desktalk.com (Richard L. Gralnik)
Subject: VCR ALERT !!  (Was Re: Yet Another TV Investigation)
Reply-To: rlg@desktalk.com
Organization: Desktalk Systems Inc.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:15:36 GMT

In article 92Apr14164834@foo.ans.net, shiao@ans.net (Dennis Shiao) writes:
>
>Actor James Earl Jones will be hosting an investigation into the 
>JFK assassination, to be aired on Wednesday at 8PM on WPIX (Ch. 11, 
>New York).

I posted this one a couple days ago, but apparently it didn't get 
through, so here's a rehash - 

This same program (apparently, given the sketchy evidence and conflicting 
eyewitness and police reports) will be shown in LA also on Wednesday night 
at 8:00 pm. on Channel 5 (good thinking by the network people. It doesn't 
conflict with Star Trek so I can tape both of them.  Hey, I have my 
priorities :-).

Richard
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Parkland 4 and other head wound witnesses
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:30:10 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz


In article <1992Apr10.200936.17761@salado.rc.arizona.edu> armstron@cs.arizona.edu (Jim Armstrong) writes:
|
|back of the head completely blown out as a fist-sized exit wound:
|(additions to this list of witnesses welcome!)
|
|	Nurse Audrey Bell	- Parkland Hospital
|	Nurse Patricia Hutton	- Parkland Hospital
|        Nurse Diana Bowron	- Parkland Hospital
|	Nurse Doris Nelson	- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. McClelland 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Peters 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr.  Carrico		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Coy			- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Alcin 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Perry 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Clark  		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Dulany		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Jones 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Crenshaw 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Jackie Kennedy
|	Phil Willis and his daughter - motorcade witnesses
|	Beverly Oliver 		- motorcade witness
|	Clint Hill		- Secret Service Agent
|	Jerrol Custer		- Bethesda x-ray technician
|        Floyd Riebe 		- Bethesda photographic technician
|	Paul O'Connor		- Bethesda autposy technician
|
|Some of those witnesses who have seen the autopsy photos and x-rays
|and have found them to be completely incompatible with what they saw:
|
|	Nurse Doris Nelson	- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Coy			- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. McClelland 		- Parkland Hospital
|	Dr. Crenshaw 		- Parkland Hospital
|        Floyd Riebe 		- Bethesda photographic technician
|	Jerrol Custer		- Bethesda x-ray technician
|	Paul O'Connor		- Bethesda autposy technician

I just want to add a few things. 

Burkley told Hurt that Kennedy was killed as the result of a conspiracy. Would
not elaborate.

Fink, Boswell did not think photos and presumably xrays showed entrance of
rear head wound. However, they did report, along with Humes, a lower rear back
wound that may or may not have been consistent with the photo we see of the
back wound. Humes recanted his belief that the photos showed the location of
the rear hend wound only under incredible pressure from the HSCA prosecutor. 

Note, for the rear back wound:
Fink, Boswell and Humes all put their finger in the wound, and tested it with a
metal probe. They determined the entry as 40 degrees and stopping after one or
two inches. The HSCA determined the angle of entry as *comming from below* the
president. The Clark Panel determined that the wound was too small to put a
finger in.

Clearly there are large discrepencies.
-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |                                                     | 
   |      |      | "Be Prepared for Enormous Fustrations"              |
   | (o)(o)      O         --Kreps, A course in Micro theory, p. 352   | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Head Wound Bullet (was: Clark Panel)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 21:42:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <7APR199211282580@rigel.tamu.edu> mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd) writes:
>
>	Odd. Lattimer's book includes three photos showing three seriously
>	deformed bullets side by side. The first bullet is one fired
>	by the Commission's Dr Olivier through a human skull. The second
>	is a bullet fired by Dr Lattimer through a human skull. The
>	third bullet is the one that went through JFK's head. 
>

Where was the bullet that went through JFK's head recovered? Was it in
the limousine, or outside somewhere? We keep hearing about the "magic
bullet" and how it was found on or near a stretcher, but nobody ever
talks about this one. Maybe that's because it doesn't support any
"conspiracy" claims.
  
Of course, if JFK *really was* shot from the front as Dr. Crenshaw
claims, then that proves that John Lear and Bill Cooper must have been
right all along: JFK was shot by the driver of his own limousine, to
stop him from revealing the U.S. government's shameful pact with
the sinister Gray aliens, who not only abduct and rape women but are
responsible for eating most of the country's missing children.
 


-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

     "In the 1970's the world will undergo famines - hundreds of millions
     of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs 
     embarked upon now ... in 1985, when it is calculated [under the most
     optimistic scenario] that the major die-back will be over, ..."
       
                       Dr. Paul Ehrlich, "The Population Bomb," 1968
From: jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com (joseph.m.knapp)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: The Doctor Speaks
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:40:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

m_henderson@csc32.enet.dec.com (Marty Henderson) writes:
>
>	Parkland doctors insisted it would only take 45 min. for an autopsy
>	 at Parkland - Feds would not allow it even though it was against
>	 the law to take the body without the autopsy.

Crenshaw states in his book that when the head doctor persisted in insisting
that the body remain, several men in suits displayed their guns. He believes
they would have killed any doctor who stood in their way.

>	This same doctor also attended to Oswald when he arrived at the
>	 Parkland emegency room. He recieved a call from the President of
>	 the U.S. - LBJ - saying "I want a deathbed confession from the
>	 accused assassin".

He adds in his book that while LHO was on the table a man appeared in the
OR with no mask and with a gun dangling from his back pocket. He thought
that "if that gun falls out, someone might get killed," not to mention
all the germs he was spreading. This was the man who was to take Oswald's
statement. I don't think LBJ used the word confession. When Oswald expired,
Crenshaw told him "there will be no deathbed statement" and the man left.

For what its worth, Dr. Crenshaw feels that Oswald would have survived if
the ambulance was as well equipped as modern ones. As it was, they had to
spend critical time stabilizing his condition before surgery, when
apparently a lot of this work today is done in the ambulance. He described
the cause of death as shock resulting from all the lactates and whatnot
that built up during the time Oswald had no respiration in the ambulance.
When they stopped most of the bleeding and his circulation resumed, the
metabolites now entered the bloodstream, reached the heart, and caused
cardiac arrest. Oh nuts... and it sounded like they were doing so well.

------
Joe Knapp     jmk@cbvox.att.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk