HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: period songs
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:52:20 -0500

Richard Fitzgilbert (sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)) writeth:

 JS> Under this definition of period you make it impossible
 JS> to compose new material that is period.
 JS> For my own definition of period, a song that is composed and
 JS> presented exactly in a period fashion is period.
 JS> If I make a replica of a
 JS> period pavillion, using period tools and period 
 JS> materials I call it a period pavillion.

There is an intrinsic difference between a song and a pavillion.  The song is an
idea; the pavillion is an object.  So how to compare the two?  Compare not the
song and the pavillion, but the song and the DESIGN of the pavillion (the ideas
they embody), or the PERFORMANCE of the song and the pavillion (the physical
results).  Just as it is impossible (under my defs) to compose new material that
is period, it is impossible to make a new pavillion DESIGN that is period.  Just
as it is impossible to have a pavillion that is itself genuinely period, no
matter how period the design, since by now it would be mere rags at best, it is
impossible to hear a genuinely period performance, no matter how period the
song, since there were no sound recording devices then.

You CAN, though, make a non-period pavillion of period design, and hear a
non-period performance of a period song.  Or you can write (or perform) a song
or design (or build) a pavillion that is what some call "perioid" - it wasn't
actually written or designed in period, but SOUNDS/LOOKS it.  This is what I
think you were referring to as "in period fashion".  The problem with that (not
for practical use, but as a standard) is that it almost ALWAYS has mistakes in
it.  Just when you think you've perfected a nice pavillion design that looks
straight out of 13th century Persia, along comes Master Whatsisname (with a
Laurel in tentmaking), who says "Persian tentmakers didn't use that sort of seam
until the 16th century and then they used larger stitches, the type of fabric is
too light to take the tension they used, they never staked ropes that far and
the stakes were thinner and longer, etc. etc. etc.".  So much for that example
of "in period fashion".  Now what was "period" by your standard no longer is. 
So much for the standard.

The problem (strictly one of semantics) under my definition arises when one
claims a pavillion to be period - what one *really* means, and is generally
understood, is not that the pavillion itself is period, but its design.  The
problem doesn't happen with songs because when one performs a period song, one
says one is performing a period song, not that one is giving a period
performance (which if it's happening right now obviously isn't period).

(BTW: The second paragraph is not intended as a lampoon of anybody who may
happen to have a Laurel in tentmaking; I don't even know if there are any.)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: A thought about Rialto
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:12:27 GMT

Arval wrote that some people have self-assigned areas of expertise
on the Rialto, listing among them, me for Corpora.  He then wrote:
  like that), it might be helpful.  For example, it would be particularly
  useful if there were someone who would volunteer to take questions about
  "what group is in this area?" [ . . . ]

I have an up-to-date list of groups in the SCA, on line.  It includes incipient
groups where I able to determine them.  Feel free to direct questions to
me on that topic.  Email is preferred, so that others needn't be bothered.
Miklos, I believe it was, has it on line for FTP at bransle.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:42:31 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


Many people have cited authenticity (or the Society's lack therof) as being
an argument for/against same-sex consorts.  I suggest that authenticity, in
this case, is less important than the traditions of the Society itself (I
think it's old enough to have its own traditons now. :-)  )

A have only attended one Coronation, so I do not know if my experience was
typical to all Kingdoms or reigns, but it was a memorable occassion.  The    
most moving part of the ceremony was when the Tanist announced that he wanted
to claim the throne, as was his due, but the King first wanted to be sure he
would be making an informed decision.  The King gave a list of "the things
that kings must know," describing the duties of the king.  One of the duties
was to serve as a *symbol,* not only of the Kingdom, but of all the ideals
that make up a strong and honorable warrior.  Likewise, the Princess was
told that Queens must stand as a symbol of love and beauty, and other virtues.

The sets of virtues symbolized by the King and Queen can be assigned to 
the male and female genders (note I say GENDER here, not SEX.)  Love and
beauty is a "feminine" virtue, while strength and honor are "masculine."
The two roles are Yin and Yang; they complement each other, and neither is
complete without the other.

Two rulers of the same gender would not allow this balance between masculine
and feminine.  The symbolism of the Crown would be gone, and the Soverign and
Consort would merely be rulers, and not symbols of all the virtues we hold  
dear, for only half of the set would be represented.  The Crown is not an
instution that simply allows a fighter and his/her SO to engage in a six-month
power trip, it is an instution that serves to enrich the society, and to 
represent the Society's ideals in two people.  Who the people are is, in
my belief, of secondary importance when compared to the roles they play.

To conclude, I feel sorry for those who cannot rule with their SO when they
feel that they must.  However, to sit on the Throne requires a great deal of
sacrifice and effort, whether the position is held by a couple married for 20
years, or by two people who met at the Crown Tourney.  Someone posted last year
on what it cost her and her husband to rule, both in time and money.  The list
started with "the king's job."  Not being able to have one's SO as consort is
simply another sacrifice that may have to be made if one wishes to be their
kingdom's ideal warrior for six months.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Laura the Nameless, Barony of Rivenstar, Midrealm
 
-- 
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Jael                    |   "One dream, one soul, one prize, one goal,     |
| jael@sage.cc.purdue.edu | One golden glance of what should be." -R. Taylor |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:23:22 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Duncan Tiercel MacLeod writes:
> > The great diesel beasts at Pennsic were an annoyance, bleating their 
> > challenge out in both daylight and darkness.  However blame not all of 
> > them as being unfriendly and malicious.  Most of them were blaring not 
> > to awaken campers, but to express displeasure and alarm at the throng of 
> > smaller dragons perched on the roadside, or in the road, peering into i
> > the camp.
> 
> How does that explain the beating all through the night?  I find it
> hard to believe that there were so many casual onlookers at 2-3 hours
> before sunrise each morning!
> 
> Our camp surmised that some irate local was on his CB home station
> telling misinformation about us on the channels used by traffic of
> I-79.  We figured that someone was telling the beasts to bleat at us.
> 
> Any other ideas?  I'd like to figure out a way to stop the irritation
> from happening again, and I believe that keeping the passers-by from
> noticing is the very best way.

One way to confirm that guess is to check with anyone working at either
Chiurgeons' Point or Security.  We use two way radios at the War and can
pick up the CB chatter as the trucks go by.  While working the point two
years ago on a graveyard shift, I heard an interesting exchange: (all of
it is from memory)

First Trucker: Hey, I'm on the I-79 and you wouldn't believe what I just saw.
   A whole buncha tents, looks like they're filming _Camelot_ down there.
Second Trucker: Must be the S.C.A. down at Cooper's Lake, I don't what the
   initials stand for, but they play King Arthur for fun.
First Trucker: Jeez, I wonder if I could get laid down there.
Second Trucker: I wouldn't try it, they play with swords down there.
First Trucker: Swords?? I'm outta here.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

THE LAST THREE WINNERS OF AETHELMEARC CORONET TOURNEY HAVE BEEN...
_A_riel       fighting for the wife of Sir Raimund  of Rhydderich Hael
_B_ear        fighting for the wife of Sir Ogami    of Rhydderich Hael
_C_hristopher fighting for the wife of Sir Carthalo of Rhydderich Hael
  "Hello? Sir Bedawyr? This is _D_agonell.  If you're not fighting for your
   wife Lena in the next Coronet Tourney, I have a proposition for you ..."
From: jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Paying the Pennsic Autocrat
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:35:57 GMT
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)

Corun, Aryk:

Perhaps you could bring your discussion back out of privacy when you are done.
In this matter, I agree (in principle) with Aryk: a professional service is worth
the fee.  However, I would be more freeform in the implementation: let the autocrat
bid for the job, and note how the money would be spent.  Of course, we then have
the problem: who chooses?

More and more, given the increased size of the SCA, it is becoming a framework
for other groups to play within.  I see this within Kingdom level, on a geographical
level, on  functional level (heralds, bards), on a period level (Hey! Anyone else
wanna be a Crusader?  How about a ..), etc.  But the SCA is the glue that we all
play within.

John
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Paying the Pennsic Autocrat
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:12:22 GMT

To all on the Rialto, greetings,

Aryk and I have been discussing the pros and cons of paying the Pennsic
Autocrat. So far, noone else has ventured an opinion. I would like to 
think there are other opinions out there, and some other possible solutions
that we can discuss. If there are not, I will ask Aryk to take this topic
into private email where he and I can hash it out ad nauseum, and not
waste the bandwidth here.

Aryk, I'm going to attempt to save your last missive in a file and answer
it later, either here or in email as the Rialto decides. I thank you for
your comments. I think this is something worth discussing, but not at the
expense of everyone else here who may be tired of hearing about it by now.

In service,

Corun
-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Modest Proposal
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:26:57 GMT

Solveig proposes a new form of regular Society publication: Studia
Antiqua, a series of 70-200 page manuscripts published quarterly.

She also points out:
                                            Actually, since there is at
  present no back-log of submissions, that frequency of publication will
  be somewhat difficult to sustain during the first years of publication.

Hmm, if there is no backlog of submissions, there may not be a need
to produce a quarterly series, yes?  Given the amount of time it takes
to produce a book length manuscript, I wonder if we could meet a
quarterly schedule.  I also wonder whether, at that level, people
would subscribe to a series of books, site unseen.

The Stock Clerk of the SCA may provide one venue for publishing such
a manuscript, if you have one (and Solveig does).  There are a
number of publishers that are SCA associated, and might be carry
such books.  Free Trumpet Press, Falconwood Press, and many others.

If *I* were in your shoes, Solveig, I would write a letter asking
the Board to streamline the SCA publications process as it exists,
and use that.  If it turns out that new books become available
4 times a year, then after a while we could set up a subscription
series.

If I were on the Board, given only the one example of a single
manuscript to publish, I would not vote to create a subscription
series, but would work to make it easier to publish such items.
That, I think, is a good first step.  You should all be grateful
I'm not on the Board (I know I am).

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Refuting intelligence...
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:16:54 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Dur wrote:

> Arval writes (and claims knowledge of law) that the ritual banning of
> Angus is a wrongful act and institutionalizes hatred.

If anyone would like to see the passages of Corpora which clearly state
that the Crown can only banish its subjects, and that every banishment from
the realm must be reviewed by the Board, I will be happy to send them to
you.  They are unambiguous.

> This is no worse than what you, Arval, have been party to in the past.  

Dur, I know you love to sound mysterious, so I won't insist that you
justify this statement.  If you are simply reminding me that I've done dumb
things from time to time, I'll not disagree; anyone who would claim
otherwise of himself is a fool.  If you choose to elucidate, be my guest:
I've apologized for my mistakes before and I expect I'll do it many more
times.  If you prefer to pretend to the enigmatic wisdom of the Sphinx, I
won't spoil your party.

If, however, you suggest that by virtue of having made mistakes I am
disbarred from recognizing the errors of others, then I will courteously
disagree.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sleep??
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:29:07 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

Greetings to the Rialto from Siobhan!
Twcs writes:
>I suppose I've gotten 
>spoiled by Western events, where the partying does shut down at 
>midnight... 

Sigh.  Partying, maybe.  Talking, no.  We got maybe 2 hours' sleep this
past Saturday night at Ducal Prize.  The talkers went until 4am, and
were back at it by 6ish.  They were asked once politely (they quieted
for about 10 minutes) and once forcefully (they didn't quiet at all).  I
wish I'd known about the "No noise after midnight" law, so I could have
brought the constabulary down on their heads, but as it is, we were all
quite fried in the morning, and in no mood to play further; we left much
earlier than we'd originally planned.

So, no kingdom's perfect, I guess.

By the way, Twcs, what's a "pump fake"?

Slainte!
	- Siobhan
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:47:28 GMT

To Tibor:

Not being able to display a pentacle is a small and unimportant thing.

To You.

Why can't people understand that they themselves are NOT the final arbiters 
of what is right and reasonable and normal for someone else to want or be?

And not being able to display a pentacle means that I do _not_ have all the
rights and priveleges that you list as available to anyone else. I cannot
decorate my person or possessions with the designs of my choice.

And I'm not a member of any Tolkien Society. Really, this seems to be a
frequently used ad hominem (or ad feminam :-) attack. I do NOT want the 
SCA to be given over to screaming hordes of D&D'ers and fantasy fanatics.
(One wonders whether the Romans were half as afraid of the Goths and Huns
as you people seem to be of these much-maligned groups.) I've never even
read the damn Tolkein books. 

I am not going to display a pentacle on my arms or person. But c'mon,
Tibor, just _admit_ that it's an arbitrary restriction and it's no more
fair than any other discriminatory rule.

N.B. When Charles Manson (whom I remember quite well, thank you; I grew
up in California) showed up for one of his innumerable parole hearings
two years ago, it was a swastika, not a pentacle, that he had carved in
his own forehead. He's a hatemonger, not even a Satanist and _certainly_
not a neo-Pagan.
Judith L. Tabron		Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu
Dept. of English Lit.		Yasun Bogeleku
Brandeis University		Household of the Great Dark Horde
Waltham, MA			(currently scouti-- LIVING in Carolingia)
	SAXON MONGOLS UNITE!
Darwin's Law -- If you're Dumb, you Die!
From: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:39:27 GMT
	<1992Sep14.233411.27784@access.digex.com>
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Hmm,  well now that we have some idea of what the money goes for, I'd
still like be interested in knowing how much  goes for what. Given a
breakdown of costs, it would make it easier for those of us in the
kingdoms involved to think up ways to economize (purchase a heralds
tent, hold more fund raisers for the chiurgeons, etc)

 Using the figure of $20.5 for Friday-Sunday paid by all attendees, and
$4 for all other days, and assuming an average arrival of 1000 people
per day (which, as I recall was pretty close this year) 

8000 * 20.5 = $164,000  (weekend)
7000* 4.00 = $ 28,000 (Thursday)
6000* 8.00 = $48,000 (Wednesday)
5000* 12.00 = $60,000 (Tuesday)
4000*16.00=$64,000 (Monday)
3000* 20.00 = $60,000(Sunday)
2000*24.00=$48,000 (Saturday)
1000*28.00 =$28,000 (Friday)
----------------------
Total=           $500,000

Ok, so 11% goes for the rental jakes.  What's the breakdown on the rest
of it?  Enquiring minds want to know.  In fact, enquiring minds want to
know what the event report says, not what rumor has it.

toodles, margaret
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Inflammatory rhetoric
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:56:43 GMT

In article <3433@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!utkcs2!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!vtserf!creatures!nutter!jtn
>From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>Subject: Inflammatory rhetoric
>Message-ID: <3433@creatures.cs.vt.edu>
>Date: 8 Sep 92 21:25:09 GMT
>References: <Bu8AvI.L8M@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> <1992Sep08.173129.36766@watson.ibm.com> <PA142548.282.715980756@utkvm1.utk.edu>
>Sender: usenet@creatures.cs.vt.edu
>Followup-To: rec.org.sca
>Organization: The Rialto
>Lines: 44
>Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  In response to Arval's call for
>moderation, T. Archer wrote,
>
>>>T. Archer offered:
>>>
>>>> Those who fail to goose-step to the turn of the rigid reproduction of
>>>> life in the Old Middle-Ages are persecuted. 
>>>
>>>I hope you were intentionally exaggerating, Archer.  
>>
>>I am not.  I have seen filk-singers cat-called down at revel and turned away 
>>from bardic circles.
>
>This is more than I have seen or heard of; but I do not question your
>experience.  Still, last I read up on WWII, the Nazis did rather more 
>than cat-call and turn people away from circles.
>
>Indeed, I had rather someone made cat-calls at me, and asked me not to
>perform, than be called a Nazi.  I wonder why you find the one an offense
>and persecution, but not the other?
>
>But there's a different reason not to call people Nazis.  It doesn't 
>convince anyone that you are right.  It just pisses off the targets, and 
>gathers them sympathy from corners where they might not otherwise get it.  
>It is not only bad manners, it is also bad tactics.
>
>I have been in the SCA for a good while now.  I've lived in two kingdoms,
>and travelled widely in a third.  I've never seen any of the behaviours
>you describe.  From this, I infer that it is possible to avoid them without
>too much trouble.  Perhaps I am wrong; but you yourself said that your own
>group is reasonable and tolerant.  If another barony, at some distance from
>you, is less so, I suggest that avoiding their events may be more to the
>point than excoriating total strangers on the Rialto, who are certain to 
>take it ill.
>
>In any case, your concrete examples, much as I am inclined to study them
>rather carefully, and see somewhat different things than you do in some
>cases, are far more convincing than references to goose-stepping.  Perhaps
>in future, if you are concerned to communicate your upset, you could give
>the examples the first time, and skip the rhetoric.
>
>In Service to the Society,
>
>-- Angharad/Terry

Please don't adopt a patronizing tone.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 00:01:36 -0500

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writeth:

 CM> Actually, Michael, none of what you qouted here was by 
 CM> me. I think there were too many headers.

A common occurrence.  I beg those of you whose scribes have such abilities, to
have them insert the initials of the person quoted, in the quoting markers, or
if the quote be short, to do it themselves.
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA History Newsletter (was Re: George Romero, Knight Riders)
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:39:10 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

> Greetings from Arval!  Tux asked:
> 
> > What happened at that Crown Tourney in BMDL such that folks were
> > motivated to splinter off and start the MSR?
> 
> A delicate question.  Here are the facts (as collected from various sources
> including several MSR members, Sir Andreas Hak & his historical survey of
> the East, Countess Aidan, Duke Vissevald, and others)

Hak's historical survey is available to the public.  He's currently putting
it and other early SCA historical information out in a quarterly newsletter.

Old Times: A History of the SCA, West, East, Drachenwald and AEthelmearc
(Primarily East with info on all the previous break-off points)
Sir Andreas Hak c/o Herb A. Kauderer
6572 Slayton Settlement Road
Lockport NY 14094
(716) 434-9260
I don't have subscription price, he hasn't set one yet.  The first (and so far,
only) issue was a courtesy copy passed around to interested parties.
I am willing to act as e-mail contact for him.  Make the subject header
_Old News_ so I know it's for him.    
                                                 -- Dagonell
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca