From: bwolfe@trentu.ca (BEN WOLFE)
Subject: Re: Pain Relief in Labour: Ben's Reply
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Trent University Computer Services Department
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:27:00 GMT

2. EPIDURALS: THE TONE OF THE DEBATE 

Oh God. First he writes an *essay* and now here he is again in the next 
post. Don't worry, I just have one or two more things to say.

First, I find it a bit stunning that some of those who have been most 
angrily attacking what I said clearly didn't read my original post. This 
applies in particular to Elise Wade (elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com), who 
writes:

> Not only that, but I can't understand *where* he gets his
> medical information from.  I've actually read a few of the
> things he's listed, and I cannot understand why he thinks
> they support his position.

Followed by this friendly little gem:

> What a jerk trying to impose unnecessary pain on women!

Elise, I referred to exactly one source in my post -- *The Crying Baby* -- 
so it's amusing that you think you've read "a few of the things" I 
"listed." More to the point, the bulk of my post was a quotation from that 
source (pg. 59 in the hardcover edition) which was not exactly open to a 
wide range of interpretations. My "position" was that epidural 
anaesthesia has risks and affects the baby. How, exactly, do you 
interpret the following in a way that doesn't support that point of view:

> "It is often claimed that epidural anaesthesia does not affect the baby.
> In fact, when women ask, doctors often reassure them that bupivicaine 
> -- the drug most often used -- does not reach the baby since it is an
> injection only into the epidural space and does not cross the placenta.
> This is not true. Bupivicaine, especially in large doses and over a long
> period of time has been shown to reduce a baby's alertness and may
> modify the ability to orient to visual and auditory stimuli for as long
> as six weeks after birth. (Etc., etc.)

Elise, have you ever *heard* of this book, let alone read it? The 
quotation is from a long section titled "Pain-killing drugs and their
effect on the baby." Your post was a deliberate LIE, and then based on
the lie you call me "a jerk trying to impose unnecessary pain on women." 
It made my jaw drop. Is this the level of debate one usually finds in 
misc.kids?

Oh, and by the way Elise, Liz Attree (eaa@doc.ic.ac.uk), whose remarks 
you were quoting as the basis for your own anger, said the following in 
her original post:

> Ben then goes on to give us the "solid, indisputable, medical evidence
> that drugs for pain relief during birth have a negative effect on the
> baby.   He says later "Please, understand the seriousness of the
> choice when you accept pain relief in labour."
>
> I don't dispute the medical evidence at all.  It is widely written up in
> many pregnancy and birthing books.

But then I guess you didn't bother to read that either.

*End of flame. Calm and reasonable tone adopted.*

Liz Attree, the meat of your post was this:

> this is *EXACTLY* the sort of attitude towards women that leaves 
> them with so much guilt after accepting drugs to help them through 
> their labours.
>
> And, of course, it was given to us by someone who will never 
> experience labour.
>
> Sorry, it made me mad.

You're perfectly entitled to decide what makes you mad, and to respond to 
it. But I wonder, was it what I said or what Sheila Kitzinger said that you
were responding too? I think you were shooting the messenger. My post 
was little more than an appeal to the medical literature in response to a 
piece of dangerous misinformation (i.e. "the health of the baby is not 
affected" by drugs for pain relief in labour).

As I said in the earlier post, I wasn't in any way suggesting that all 
women who have epidurals should feel guilty, only that the decision 
should be an informed one and that less interventive alternatives should
be tried first. This isn't exactly a revolutionary statement -- it's almost
a universal theme in responsible childbirth books. For instance you'll find
it, not just about epidurals but about all elective obstetrical
interventions, in virtually everything Kitzinger has written in the last
few years.

*Return to moderate flame*

Oh yes, and then there's Laura Floom (lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov). 
Following Elise Wade's little tirade, Michele Gaudreault, who'd actually 
read and understood my original post, wrote:

>I didn't save the original article, but I don't think Ben was trying to
>"impose" pain on women.  He was merely saying that one really ought to
>be aware of the risks involved.   He was trying to encourage women to
>learn (and I believe that in most case it must be learned) how to labor
>without pain medication, for their own health as well as the baby's.

To which Laura replied:

>Really? What that what he was saying? Well how very patronizing of 
> him. If that is what he was saying then someone should tell Ben that we 
> *were* discussing the issue on the net, and presumably, we were trying 
> to become better informed!
>
> Add me to the list of people who were offened by his post. I think he is
> a new poster to misc.kids, and probably doesnt realize that we are a 
> pretty well informed group, and in the areas we are unsure of we ask 
> the net. 

And then another gem for my collection:

> We dont need his type of mean-spirited lectures.

Laura, I'm quite willing to assume that this remark was made in haste and 
without a clear memory of my original post. But do you really think what I 
said was either "patronizing" or "mean-spirited", or feel that my 
participation in the discussion hasn't helped to make it better informed? 
Yes, I'm a new participant in misc.kids. I was pretty thrilled to find it.
But this thread has taken a bit of the shine off for me. I'd like to think
that this newsgroup is about exchanging information and ideas, not 
about calling complete strangers names on the basis of third-hand 
reports of what they said.

Thanks for bearing with me, and thanks especially to Michele Gaudreault, 
Mikki Barry and minx for participating in the discussion. I too wonder if 
the venom is focused on me because I'm male. Any comments?

Ben Wolfe

Newsgroups: misc.kids