From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Representatives on Lebanon
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:28:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.105154.14526@ulrik.uio.no>, eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:
|> 
|> Yes, Ugaritic uses an alphabetic system. Yet you are wrong in saying that
|> Ugaritic is very close to the Phoenician language of Sidon, Tyre and Byblos.
|> And that it is very close to the Hebrew language. I myself have read some
|> Ugaritic text (in Ugaritic and not translation) and I understand very well the
|> contension of many scholarts who donmot want to place Ugaritic as part of the
|> Canaanite dialects. What we should also do, is deffirentiate between language
|> (as analysed in the 20th. cent. AD) and geography.

Elie, the books I have read do not distiquish between the Pheonician dialects
of Sidon tyre etc. Pheonician kingdoms were very independent of each and each
developed different cultures. The state that the first use of the Alphabet was
at Ugarit and it is close to pheonician and hebrew.

|> 
|> I personally lean towards seeing Ugaritic as a Canaanite dialect, but the issue
|> is not as clear as you would have it.

Scholars do not call it Canaanite, but call it Ugarictic Pheoncian.

|> 
|> Aziz, Phoenician is the name given to the Cannanites who lived from Akko to
|> Arwad. Thus to differenciate between Phoenician and Canaanite as you do is
|> incorrect, unless you can state that a certain Canaanite element was only found

According to the tablets of Ebla, as I said ealier the region or mountains of
Lebanon were called "Labunum". It is thought that this means Lebanon and the
Canaanites applied that name. According to the bible the Canaanites were living
in Palestine as well as in Syria. I would be surprised that they did not occupy
Lebanon.

|> in Lebanon and not any other Canaanite areas. Remember Philo of Byblos was
|> writing under a very Hellinized era, thus used the term Phoenician not
|> Cannanite. Even in Cartago at the time of Augustine (4th cent. AD.!) the
|> inhabitants called themselves Canaanites while the Romans called them Puni
|> (from Phoenician).

Yes he used the term Pheonician, and Ugarit proved that what he was saying was
correct, it was noy sidon, tyre, or Byblos that provided that proof.

|> 
|> The language of Ebla is not very well analysed. There is much discussion about
|> it too. It seems (as my professor indicates to me) that the daily language of
|> Ebla was a Canaanite dialect yet the written language was Akkadian.
|> 
|> Whe we today analyse a language and say it is Canaanite, we do from linguistic
|> crteria which we have decided. Some define Canaanite as all North-west semitic
|> dialects except Aramiac. Others use other criteria. THis should be
|> deffirentiated from Geography.

The language of Ebla was old Canaanite or north-west semetic. It was wriiten
using Sumerian form or Akkadian form and they found dictionaries to go between
the Ebla and Sumerian languages.

|> 
|> The borders have fluctuated, yet it is generally seen that the geographical
|> borders of Canaan lay a little north of the present Lebanon borders.

No, Canaan extended all the way to the Sinai penisula.

|> 
|> Ugarit is outside Canaan proper so was Ebla.

So Ugarit is Pheonician. Ebla was an empire that include all of todays Syria, 
Lebanon, Palestine, parts of Iraq and turkey and possibly other places that
have not been discovered as of yet.

|> 
|> The term Aramaean is not related to the term Amorite.

Arameans and Amorites come from the same original tribes. The Arameans moved
down from possibly North Syria, and Amorites moved into Iraq and ruled Babylon.

|> 
|> Note that northern Syria and Iraq the later Aram was at first Akkad (and its
|> empire) and then Assyria. With the rise of the Aramaeans, it became Aram.

The Aramean tribe that moved to the south did not form an empire that occupied
all of Syria and Iraq. Only the Amorites under Hammurabi did that. I think you
are getting this history from the old testaments which are not accurate and are
not detailed. empires that occupied the entire Greater Syria are:
1. Ebla- 2500 BC.
2. Akkad, Sargon I- 2300BC
3. Babylon (Hammurabi) - 1800 BC
4. Syrian kingdom - 1400-1100 BC, no concrete records.
4. Assyrians - 800 BC

Somewhere in between the Egyptians had control of the Area and some others
breifly like the Hittites. The Arameans of south Syria never controlled that
entire area.
 
|> 
|> Very interesting, can you tell me which Egyptian texts?

I do not have the reference right now, I will send it to you on Monday. The same
book that I read shows that a kindom rose in north Syria and they were called
"Syrian" by the Egyptians. The records indicate this occured around 1400 BC, and
Egypt came under their control around 1100 BC at the start of the reign of 
Ramses III. The kingdom was not called by any other name, the book uses original
names not translated names.

Also do you remember the story of the Egptian and king of Byblos. I read that
story again and the Egyptian said that when he came to see the king, he found
him in his villa overlooking the "Syrian Sea". It would seem that the Egyptians
have called the Mediteranean sea as the Syrian Sea. This cannot be a translation
otherwise the book would have used the original name. It seems that the kingdom
of Syria had influenced that area to name the sea after it. Again this was
around 1100 BC.
|> 
|> >It would be part of present day Syria and Pheonicia of the past. Remember, the
|> >Pheonician kingdoms stretched along the coast from Jaffa in Palsetine to parts
|> >of present day Turkey.
|> 
|> This is not correct. Arwad is generally given as the northern border of Canaan

Elie you confirm what I say with your post that Rached Zantout posted about
Pheonicia, now you are contradicting yourself.

|> 
|> The non-semitic pre-Canaanite finds in Byblos are known, can you be more
|> specific of which finds show that the Phoenicians came through the negev and
|> Palestine?

Apparently so, the migration of the Pheonicians was through south Palestine.

|> 
|> >|> Can you tell me which Egyptian texts? I am not aware of the name Syria beng
|> >|> used in Egyptian texts. But if you are reading translations, learn that the
|> >|> word Aram (and sometimes areas outside of Aram, as Lebanon for example) are
|> >|> termed Syria by the translators (English) and the term does not occur in
|> the
|> >|> original. eg. every occurence of the term Syria in the english Bible is
|> >|> translated from the wrod Aram.
|> >
|> >I am not sure about this,
|> 
|> I am, for I read the old testament and teach its language. I have checked it.
|> For you to make sure that what I say is true, check Young's anaytical
|> conconrdance. It give the Hebrew word for the English translation.

I will post the refernce for you on monday. The name Syria as used by the
Egyptians dates to 1400 BC.

|> 
|> Syria is an occupying force in Lebanon. Let those Lebanese who want Syria to
|> stay, make Syria stay in their areas!
|> 
|> As ar as we being one people, it is said: it takes two bears to tango!  :-)
|> 
|> You want to be one "people" with the Lebanese, I have nothing against those
|> Lebanese who desire such a thing, as long I always will have the freedom to
|> decide for myself.
|> 
 Elie people cannot be forced to do anything against their will. I am not
 trying to do that at all, please do not be defensive. I know what your concerns
 are, remember I am Christian also. I read a rebuttle from an Egyptian
 gentleman to another Guy regarding Arab unity, where this guy wanted the
 Christians to pick and leave if they do not like an Islamic system. I was
 very disappointed and I know what it feels like. I had not expected that kind
 of a response from people living in the 21st century.
 
 The M.E. is my home and I always go out of my way to defend it, however, when
 idiots talk that way, it takes a great deal out of me. I guess I will drop
 this unity thread altogether.
 
 Regards
 Aziz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon