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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:17:02 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security

[I never got my original response to this message back over the list, so
 I suspect my mailer ate it.  Please accept my apologies (and let me
 know) if you already received it.  Thanks.  --DH]

> Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:14:55 EST
> From: Bernice Tennant <U1A9A%WVNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Eternal Security: supporting your argument
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
>
> On 12/10/92 at 06:49:13 jesse i. carnes said:
> >I agree with you that ANY person can say "Lord, Lord ..." but not
> >necessarily be a true Regenerate Christian.  But the poignant question
> >may be whether some oen who has been Regenerated by God's Spirit can
> >ever be lost, bearing mind Jesus' words where He said that "it is the
> >will of my Father that all whom He has given to me, I should lose NONE
> >of them (see John 6:38-40)."
>
> Jesse,Jesus said that but to use your own tactics, please define who
> and what are "all that he has given to me".   All those that cry "Lord,
> Lord.  Or not all those who cry "Lord, Lord.

I vote for "not".  :-)  If it were to turn out that Jesus ended up
"losing" someone, then that person was not given to Jesus by His
Father.  Since Jesus says that not everyone who cries "Lord, Lord" will enter
 the kingdom of heaven (Mt 7:21),

The only way to argue the other position would be to contend that,
while it is God's "perfect will" that Jesus should lose none of them,
it may be God's "permissive will" to allow him to lose some by some
means, such as (perhaps) rebellion against God.  Apart from the
dichotomy of "perfect" vs. "permissive", I don't like this
interpretation because of Jesus' parable of the Good Shepherd.

Unlike the hired hand, who runs and abandons the sheep when danger
appears, the Good Shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.  If a
sheep were to escape from the pen, would the Good Shepherd kick back
and wait to see if the sheep would come back on its own?  I believe
that he would go out, find the sheep, and bring it back to the pen.
The sheep are subject to the Good Shepherd's protection, whether they
are in our out of the pen at the time.


> We can't know the heart
> of man but we can see those who appear to love God and obey him.  Still
> only God knows the heart of his children and therefore he calls them.

Or, from the perspective of grace, God calls them, and therefore their
hearts are right.


> And there is more to having Christ in your heart than just accepting
> him.  I can accept a job as a waitress but if I don't wait the tables,
> I will be fired.  Maybe this is not a good way to describe following
> Jesus, but I am at a loss for better words at this time.

Just how much do you have to *do* in order to keep Christ in your
heart?  I would contend that one's works are an inevitable
*consequence* of one's salvation: perhaps not consistently, as we still
sin, but unavoidably.  Nevertheless, I would not presume to judge
someone's salvation on the basis of his works (or, more commonly, the
apparent lack thereof), for who am I to judge someone else's servant?

While we must discern between good and evil, it is another thing
altogether to draw conclusions on anyone's state of salvation.  We have
neither the relevant information (i.e., his heart), nor the authority,
nor the place to do so.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia