HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: emev02@castle.ed.ac.uk (H Oral)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Turk(iye) gelenekleri
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:09:58 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec30.212723.12487@ee.rochester.edu> terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.115401.23868@ulrik.uio.no> suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci) writes:

>>Bu aynen hristiyan alemindeki noel bayramini animsatiyor.
>>Noel Isa'nin dogumunu kutluyor. Ben simdi merak ediyorum
>>%96 si musluman olan Turkiye'de isanin dogumunu kutlayanlar
>>bu isi bilincli olarakmi yapiyorlar yoksa 'Avrupali takinmak' icinmi?
>>Suleyman

>According to Quran, Isa (Jesus) is also a prophet of God. I do not think
>there is anything wrong with "celebrating" his birthday. 

"Christmas day" is NOT the birthday of Hz. Isa (peace be upon him).
It is the birthday of JAZEUS, The Babylonian Sun God.  The name Isa
is Joshua in Hebrew, not Jesus.

It was not until 400 A.C. that Christians finally accepted the dogma
of trinity and the "Christmas" day as the birthday of "Jesus."
In fact Christmas have been celebrated since centuries before
Hz. Isa (peace be upon him) the same as Easter, Halloween and all
other Pagan traditions.

>Besides, in the
>Western world, majority of the people do not see Christmas strictly 
>religious. 

Yes, they just follow the foot steps of their forefathers, even if
they are wrong.   Or you do not think that there is anything wrong
in imitating a primitive culture which used to worship Sun?

>Christmas is the day you give your loved ones a present symbolizing
>that you care about them and you love them. So, majority of Turks chose the 
>New Year's day for this purpose. 

I see the imitation of other nations as a proof of infriority.
There are 365 days/354 days in a year, why do they have to choose
this particular day for "showing kindness to the loved ones"?

>However, there is a definite influence from the Western world on the choice of
>this day. BUT, there is absolutely nothing wrong in being influenced by our 
>neighbors as long as we preserve our fundamental cultural and religious 
>characteristics which entitle us as being classified as "Turks".

How can we preserve our Muslim identity while in the same time
imitating the ignorants and/or rejecters? 

>NOTE: The word "religious" in the last sentence is meant to refer to Muslim
>      Turks. Although majority of Turkish people are Muslims, I have friends
>      who are Jewish, Christian and atheist. I do NOT think that religion is 
>      a factor in calssifying an ethnic background.

>Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun.

Whoever imitates a nation becomes one of them.  (Hadith)

>
>E.T.
From: RCIRIT%DENVER@VAXF.Colorado.EDU (REMZI CIRIT)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Unity in Thought, language or DOMINATION
Date: 26 Dec 1992 09:19:38 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

#######################################################################
           >
          >Nermin ne10@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu wrote:
          >
          >Dilde, fikirde, iste birlik.
          >Unity in language, in thought, in work.
          >Ismail Gaspirali (1851-1914)

   Nermin,
   The idea you qouted above is a great idea. However, I have some questions
   for you; How are we going to do it. ? What dou you think about cultural
   diversity?. Since you are living in the USA, is there any way to apply
   this theory to the USA ?
   Since we are not robots, can we really have unity in thought ?

   If the people do not want to accept the unity in thought, in work,
   How are we going to force them ? In trems of the human rights. is
   it right to force them FOR THE SAKE OF THE UNITY ?

   Which one is important humanity or unity in language, in thought ?

   Remzi Cirit
   ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
               .-~~-.--.
              :         )                  IT IS NOT A DENIAL, I AM JUST
        .~ ~ -.\       /.- ~~ .             VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT THE REALITY
        >       `.   .'        <                I ACCEPT.
       (         .- -.         )
        `- -.-~  `- -'  ~-.- -'
          (        :        )           _ _ .-:
           ~--.    :    .--~        .-~  .-~  }
               ~-.-^-.-~.\_      .~  .-~   .~
                        \ \'     \ '_ _ -~
                         `.`.    //
                . - ~ ~-.__`.`-.//
             .-~   . - ~ }~ ~ ~-.~-.
         .' .-~      .-~       :/~-.~-./:
        /_~_ _ . - ~                 ~-.~-._
                                         ~-.<

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Arxid stats for the last two weeks (regular post)
Date: 23 Dec 1992 07:58:41 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

This week's stats show our feathered friend in the #11 spot, with
170 articles posted, 871 KB of volume, and accounting for less than
0.1 percent of traffic.

  11   170     871.4  0.1%   sera@zuma.UUCP  (Serdar Argic)
                              14% soc.culture.europe
                              14% soc.culture.greek
                              14% talk.politics.mideast
                              13% soc.culture.turkish
                              13% soc.history
                              10% talk.politics.soviet
                              5% soc.culture.soviet

Surprisingly, he has stopped posting in his home group of soc.culture.turkish.
Any explanation/theory will be appreciated. I am anxious... Also, today's
pick had 29 Arxidies (articles) in one shot.  

Spiros
--
              ___        _____________________________
             |  o\__    | Ne mutlu anti-Argic diyene? | Beef: Real Food 
}}            \  __/ ___| Ne mutlu anti-Mutlu diyene! |       for Real People
}}}    ____   / /    \          (Old Turkish Proverb) |
}}}}__/}}}}\_/ /      \_______________________________| Feathers: Real Clothes
}}/  }}}}}}    \                                               for real Chicken
  \   }}}}   }}/                                              
   \__ }}____}/        Spiros Triantafyllopoulos        
      \ /              c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com    
       |/_                                               
       '\
From: emev02@castle.ed.ac.uk (H Oral)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: ERBAKAN HOCA ve EKONOMIK PROGRAMI (Islamcilardan secmeler)
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:42:44 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <Dec.21.18.07.57.1992.19716@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21203635.AA43543@me.unda.edu> kg+02@me.unda.edu (Kaya Guralp) writes:
>State planning cannot be done without interest rates and
>without controlling the inflation rate.

If there is no interest there won't be any inflation.
Inflation is due to false profits banks gain from the people
through interest.  If you do not have interest this false profit
disappears, and you do not have inflation any more which makes poor
poorer and rich richer.

hamid
From: kg+02@me.unda.edu (Kaya Guralp)
Subject: EN CAGDAS IDEOLOJI OLAN ISLAM (Islamci yazarlardan secmeler)
Organization: University of Dakota, School of Engineering
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 00:34:05 GMT


ISLAMCI YAZARLARDAN SECMELER -3-
--------------------------------

  A. Bulac, Cagdas Kavramlar ve Duzenler, s. 21-22.

  ``Islam caglar ustunudur; cag onu geriden izlemek zorundadir. Islam 
    kiyamete kadar. Islam kiyamete kadar yasayacaktir...''

  ``Islam'dan baska hic bir dusunce akimi, hic bir duzen ve ideoloji cagdas
    degildir....''

  Islamci yazarlarin dusunceleri genellikle Islamin, olan duzenlerin en iyisi
  oldugu yonunde.

  Ideolojiler insanlara mutluluk ve refah getirmek icin insanlar tarafindan
  kurulmus kurumlardir. Kapitalist ve Sosyalist doktrinlere baktigimizda,
  bunlarin toplumsal refahin nasil saglanabilecegi konusunda cozum getirmeye
  calistiklarini goruruz. Islami dusunceye gore, Allah Kuran ve peygamber
  Muhammed vasitasiyla zaten, yarattigi insanlara dogru yolu ve en mukemmel
  sistemi gostermistir. Bunun disina cikmak, Islami dusunceye ters duser.

  Bu mantikla, Islam tum ideolojileri reddeder ve onlari insan yapisi
  olarak degerlendirir ve yaraticinin Muhammed vasitasiyla insanlara
  dogru yolu gosterdigini iddia eder. Bu arada, kadinlari dovun, hirsizlarin 
  ellerini kesin turundeki ayetler gozardi edilir.

 saygilarimla
 ------------
 kaya
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: Continuation on CYPRUS, Palikaria Terrorists and Makarios!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:30:34 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>In article <BzMnsp.IqK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
M. Syrimis responding to a previous article:
>>The rights of the Turkish Cypriot people were not barbarically grasped
>>by anyone, they were irresponsibly abandoned by them, under the 
>>influence of Denktash.

>The present administration of the Turkish sector on the
>island is run by men who were democratically elected. To
>suggest that Rauf Denktash and his co-workers are anything
>but honorable men doing a very hard job is McCarthyism
>in a different form.

My comment was refering to the intercommunal conflicts in 1963
which started after the proposal for constitutional changes.

I guess your computer generated answer scr* up once more
Mr Argic <=>Mutlu.

>Serdar Argic


-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Democracy in Islam (Re: Thoughts/discussion with Mark Hubey
Date: 24 Dec 92 21:55:19 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <20207.2b39289e@ul.ie> abbasa@ul.ie writes:

> > They were not legal from an Islamic standpoint. The 
> > whole point behind the early civil war in Islamic History was about preserving 
> > the legality of the "democratic" choice of the caliphe. that he was a 
> > representative of the people and their trustee.  That caliphate is nothing 
> > but a trust between him and the people. This fact is agreed upon between 
> > Muslims, and Abu Hanifa's support for the 2 revolutions of his time sugges 
> > such. 

> But I still do not know which Khalifa was democratically elected.
> As far as my knowledge is concerned none of the Khalifas was elected 
> according to the democatic principles, right? So how can you claim that
> they had full trust of people?   

There are different kinds of democracies. Early Islam did have a
democratic bent. It was not explicitly a representative kind of
a democracy. It was a kind of a Parliamentary democracy. The 
leadership (the upper echelon) 'elected' the Caliphs. 

They did manage to stave off the dynastic faction for a while. 
Finally they had no choice but to elect Ali. When he was assasinated,
the same problem resurfaced again but this time was the final time.

The parliamentarians won out again but in an irony of history the
winner (Muawwiya) turned into a dynastic one anyway.


> > I ask you: Can the king of Saudi Arabia decline his authority in favor 
> > of a populous chosen leader, I doubt that.  Can the Mullah's of Iran accept
> > that the leader of Iran be from a Muslim sect other than the Shi'i sect. I
> > doubt that.  At least, there is no provision in their constitution (case of
> > Iran) for such a decree.  
> 
> But sunni Mullahs are not even ready to give shias rights to pratcise their
> religion fully not to speak of giving them their fare share of political 
> rights.  Shias are even being prosecuted in those countries where they are 
> in majority [ for instance Iraq and Bahrain] .  In countries where they

Better question to ask is; "Why is it Ok now to use democratic
principles to decide whether Saudi Arabia or Iran is an Islamic
state?"

Why are we allowing the Muslims of the world to vote to decide whether
these countries are real Islamic states if democracy is such a bad
idea ?

And if it's a good idea, then why not allow the Muslims to 'vote'
what real Islam is about; that is why aren't they allowed to
decide for themselves whether drinking beer is unislamic?  Why
indeed do we have to turn to jurists of the Hanefi, or Maliki
or Hanbali schools and ask their opinions?

If it's good for the goose, it must be good for the gander.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Killfile help 
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:48:26 GMT

	I  recently moved to this account  and stupidly
didn't port my killfiles  over. What's  the most  elegant
kf for Mutlu/Argic?

						James Nicoll
From: trh@jack.sns.com (Al Trh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Split in the Turkish Parliament?
Date: 29 Dec 1992 23:47:19 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: Turkish Cultural Program List <TRKNWS-L%USCVM.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

 12/23  ANTI-IRAQ GROUP COULD SPLIT TURKISH PARLIAMENT

    By Ayse Sarioglu
    ANKARA, Dec 23, Reuter - The extended presence of a
Western air strike force based in Turkey to protect Iraqi
Kurds from Baghdad threatens to cause a parliamentary split
during a vote on Thursday.
    Four small but vociferous opposition parties object to a
government proposal to extend for a further six months from
January 1 the mandate of the force operating from southern
Incirlik airbase.
    "I would not come before you if I had the slightest
doubt that (the presence of the force) was detrimental to
Turkey's interests," Prime Minister Suleyman Demirel told
parliament on Wednesday.
    The main opposition Motherland Party said it would give
conditional approval if the mandate was cut back to three
months during which Turkey sought a comprehensive
international agreement on the deployement.
    But party chairman Mesut Yilmaz said his 96 deputies
would vote no if Motherland's condition was not accepted.
    Many MPs say the prolonged presence of the U.S., French
and British strike force in Turkey without the benefit of a
U.N. Security Council resolution impinges on Turkey's
sovereign rights.
    Ankara has sanctioned the force, code-named Provide
Comfort, under bilateral agreements with the three allies.
    Demirel's True Path Party has 182 seats and his Social
Democrat Populist Party (SHP) coaliton partners hold 52.
They can muster a simple majority in the 450-seat house
provided there is little or no dissent in their ranks.
    Eighteen deputies of the pro-Kurdish People's Labour
Party are also expected to give them support.
    The fundamentalist Welfare Party with 40 seats, the 21-
strong Republican Peoples Party, 13 deputies of the
Nationalist Labour Party, three members of the Democratic
Left Party and some 15 deputies from the SHP are expected to
vote no.
    Foreign Minister Hikmet Cetin met party leaders on
Tuesday to drum up support to extend the mandate.
    The force was created last year after Western coalition
forces repatriated 500,000 Iraqi Kurds who fled the Iraqi
army after a failed post-Gulf War uprising against President
Saddam Hussein.
    Opponents want to know when the Western strike force is
going to leave.
    "Possibilities of conflict exist in many parts of the
world but for none of them there is a standing force like
this," Yilmaz said.
    Critics say the presence of the force encouraged the
announcement of a federated Kurdish state in November and
could inspire a declaration of Kurdish soverignty.
    This is anathema to Ankara, fighting a separtist Kurdish
insurgency north of the Iraqi border that has killed about
5,300 people since 1984.
From: trh@jack.sns.com (Al Trh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: You may have to resubscribe to trknws-l
Date: 2 Jan 1993 07:42:06 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: Turkish Cultural Program List <TRKNWS-L%USCVM.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Over the next few days, some of you will have to resubscribe to
trknws-l.

We are getting in access of 100 items returned to us. Most of them
are from members who forgot to sign off before their accounts were
closed.

To alliviate the problem, we will take most every subscriber's name
off the list and ask them to resubscribe.

We will start alphabetically with the part of our subscribers'
addresses that come right after the 'at' sign.

If and when you get a notice saying that you have been deleted
or removed from the TRKNWS-L please use the instructions below
to resubscribe:

SAVE THE FOLLOWING!

This information is written ahead of time for questions of the
type you have just asked us. If the information does not answer
your question please feel free to contact us again.
(Last update: 11/27/92).

To subscribe to trknws-l send a single-line e-mail to:
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From: YENER@TRMETU.BITNET (Yener YIGIT)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Galatasaray-Kocaelispor Erteleme Maci.
Date: 27 Dec 92 19:22:44 GMT
Organization: Middle East Technical University - Computer Center

Evet Futbol Severler,
bugun e ertelenmis olan Galatasaray-Kocaelispor
maci yapildi. Sonuc 1-1.

Kocaelispor un golunu 44. dakikada Saffet
Galatasaray in golunu 47. dakikada Ugur Atti.
Yeni siralama soyle olustu:

Takimlar         O   G   B   M   A   Y      P  Av.
--------------  --  --  --  --  --  --     --  ---
Kocaeli         15  10   3   2  40  14     33  +26
Galatasaray     15   9   4   2  27  10     31  +17
Fenerbahce      15   9   3   3  38  17     30  +21
Besiktas        15   8   6   1  29  13     30  +16
Trabzon         15   8   6   1  26  10     30  +16
Bursa           15   7   3   5  25  21     24  + 4
Ankaragucu      15   6   2   7  24  22     20  + 2
Sariyer         15   5   4   6  19  23     19  - 4
Bakirkoy        15   5   3   7  24  24     18    0
Altay           15   5   3   7  17  24     18  - 7
Genclerbirligi  15   4   5   6  19  27     17  - 8
Kayseri         15   2   7   6  14  21     13  - 7
Aydin           15   3   4   8  11  26     13  -15
Gaziantep       15   3   3   9  15  30     12  -15
Karsiyaka       15   2   6   7  15  31     12  -16
Konya           15   0   6   9  13  43      8  -30

Sevgi ve Saygilarimla,
Yener Yigit.
From: spebcg@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr B G Cetiner 92)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: ERBAKAN HOCA ve EKONOMIK PROGRAMI (Islamcilardan secmeler)
Date: 25 Dec 92 21:29:15 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College at Cardiff
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

|
|I'm still curious what Erbakan's "changes" would be.  (see the subject).
|One would assume that he has more concrete outlines for changes than
|just slogans.  Are there anyone in the know in this crowd?
|

Mr.Bulent, why don't you ask these questions directly to Erbakan or
some economists from his party? Everybody here just knows his slogans
rather than his challenging (?) program. Then we could compare and
discuss his program. 

Regards
Beytullah




|[stuff deleted]
|
|BM
From: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Turk(iye) gelenekleri
Date: 29 Dec 92 11:54:01 GMT
Reply-To: suley@xantos.uio.no (Suleyman Kondakci)
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway

Bay{an}lar, Turkiye'de duyduguma gore yeni yil kutlanirken
insanlar karsilikli hediyeler verirlermis sevdiklerine, dogrumu?

Bu aynen hristiyan alemindeki noel bayramini animsatiyor.
Noel Isa'nin dogumunu kutluyor. Ben simdi merak ediyorum
%96 si musluman olan Turkiye'de isanin dogumunu kutlayanlar
bu isi bilincli olarakmi yapiyorlar yoksa 'Avrupali takinmak' icinmi?

Lutfen cevaplar buraya, zaten 400'un ustunde okunmamis mail'im var

Selam getirmisem
Suleyman

--
				"Yurtta sulh cihanda sulh"
					M. Kemal Ataturk
From: bivanovi@thunder.LakeheadU.Ca (Boris Ivanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Confusing perpetrators of the genocide with the victims, "Schoinas"?
Date: 28 Dec 1992 00:47:31 GMT
Organization: Lakehead University, Thunder Bay, Ont., Canada

Please excuse me if this is the wrong newsgroup (I will not post again).


Does have any information about attending University in 
Russia or Ukraine? (Addresses, Fees, Conditions, etc.)

Please e-mail feedback to:
bivanovi@thunder.lakeheadu.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
From: jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer)
Subject: Re: "Turkish children also should be killed," ordered 'Boyadjian'.
Organization: Specialix Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:15:44 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>In article <6603.2b405a7b@hayes.com> msieweke@hayes.com writes:

>>First, Syrdar is not an AI program.  Syrdar has an automated program

>Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, 
>the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
>in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
>and national origin?

Well done Serdar!  It also doesn't change the fact that the moon rises
in the east.  We were discussing your origins.  Are you a human or
just a program, or maybe a non-native english speaking human assisted
by a program?  Comments please?

BTW, please look up satire in a English-Turkish dictionary.
From: maler@pelvoux.imag.fr (Oded Maler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: t.p.m. is boring
Date: 29 Dec 92 15:40:22 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France

About once in a year I make the mistake of browsing thru t.p.m.
postings. And as Kohelet (Ecclestias ?) said: nothing new under 
the Sun. Instead of some constructive discussion about the 
possible future of the region, we see just a propaganda war
among individuals and even organizations (btw, where has last
year's good old ARF disappeared?) trying to win(?) points in
the international public opinion. Among them some western
"moralists" for whom supporting the palestinians helps them to
overcome the guilty feelings of western colonialization, some
fanatic jews that will support any extreme stupidity of the 
Israeli government, and some blind as-well Arabs, who prefer 
to concentrate on the Palestinian problem instead of looking in
the real problems of the Arab world. All sides have a sick 
tendency to compare each other to the Nazis, to argue backwards
in history, and worth than all, to support their non-sense by
quoting lengthy "sources" and "facts" (Not to mention the
Turkish/Armenian/Greek stuff). 

Is all this propaganda effective (except for the short catharsis 
of the posters)? How many people read this newsgroup? Does this
trash affect congressmen and policy makers? I wonder...

So maybe it's time to make a call for discussion for closing
this newsgroup? Or alternatively change its name to 
alt.mideast.propaganda  or create talk.mideast.constructive
where some reasonable people who are seriously interested in 
the future of the middle-east, could discuss. 
-- 
===============================================================
Oded Maler, LGI-IMAG (Campus), B.P. 53x, 38041 Grenoble, France
Phone:  76635846  Fax: 76446675   e-mail: maler@vercors.imag.fr
===============================================================