From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Soul
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<KENTD.92Sep3150607@zappa.FtCollins.NCR.com>
	<LEET.92Sep9095010@dove.ims.com>
	<1992Sep12.014420.9837@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:15:47 GMT


So as to not add more fuel to the "sci.skeptic.biblical" fire, I have
deleted much of what follows.  I am trying to keep this directed
strictly toward issues of skepticism about Christian claims of
supernatural entities, while avoiding arguments about validity of the
Bible.

But, if y'all want me out of this newsgroup, I'll go quietly ...

>>>>> On Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:44:20 GMT, max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) said:

Max> In article <LEET.92Sep9095010@dove.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>
>In the Judeo-Christian tradition, the soul is that part of a person
>which responds to God.  In the Bible the soul is likened by analogy
>and metaphor to many organs (the bones, the heart, the liver, the
>stomach, ...), but is "fixed" in none of them.

Max> This is incredibly simplistic: there is much more than this to
Max> the record.

Your discussion which followed suffered from confusing the "soul" and
"spirit" as used in the Bible.  A quick check of Strong's Exhaustive
shows that the Bible uses "spirit" when skeptics would say "soul".  I
thought that the original poster (Remember him?) was not interested in
such fine distinctions.  Feel free to argue with John Ato about that,
or with me via e-mail.

I will continue the error of using "soul" in what follows, for
simplicity and backward-compatibility.

Max> Face it: the category 'soul' has changed, despite the tendency of
Max> fundamentalists to pretend that their doctrine and all of it's
Max> concepts sprang into full flower all at once, by backpatching
Max> translations. Vines Expository Dictionary is notorious for this,
Max> smudging the definitions of Bethulah and Almah until they are
Max> indistinguishable. What a bunch of liars fanatics are.

I agree that fanatics can lie.  I also believe that it is easier to
condemn someone once you've labelled and pigeonholed them.  If
skeptics want to label all people who believe in an inspired Bible as
"fanatics" they may do so, but it's incorrect.

Max> Note also, that as science has explored the activities of life, the
Max> role of the soul has emptied further and further. You suppose now
Max> that what remains in the soul is out of reach of the tools of the
Max> scientist. Wrongo, bucko; if the soul has an effect on the body,
Max> then that is a thread of causality and testability that the scientist
Max> can tug on; if not, then you cherish an empty bag.

If the soul has a *measurable* effect on the body, then that's true.
What we need, then, is a control - a person without a soul - to test
against a person *with* a soul.  We also need a test which will
distinguish between them.  Unfortunately, the soul is that part of a
person which responds to God, so we need His cooperation in the
experiment - and there are all those warnings about putting God to the
test.  Sigh.  Too bad, since there are so many readers of this
newsgroup who would be great as supposed soul-less volunteers! :-)

Max> Again, as I said before, IMHO it is all a bunch of hooey.

You are entitled to your HO.  Am I also entitled to yours?  :-)

Max> I would very much like to see you justify your definition of soul
Max> on the basis of scripture.

Via e-mail, if you'll respond via e-mail.

>I cannot provide you with verifiable
>properties for the soul, because the soul lies outside of the realm of
>scientific verification.

Max> This finally, is only true of the most modern conception of the idea
Max> of soul, which has been emptied of anything science can touch.

To condemn modern Judeo-Christianity on the basis of old theology
would be like condemning skepticism for the original belief that the
platypus was a hoax.
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "Jesus said unto him, It is written again,
Integrated Measurement Systems |  Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  - Matthew 4:7  (For extra credit: To
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  whom is Jesus speaking?)
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  





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