HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: WARNING: IT HAS STARTED AGAIN
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:55:14 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: /etc/organization

This is just for informational purposes but check out the January 93
issue of THE ATALNTIC.


There is a very long, deceptively objective article entitled: The Story
Of A Gun. It uses the Atlantic Shores Christian School shootings in '88
as the focus and the launching point. For those that don't remember, this
was the case where the dealer was successfully sued for a shooting that
took place with a firearm he sold to a minor through a strawman inter-
mediary.


There is no ranting but the facts are misrepresented and demand a rebuttal.
I do not have all of the relevant info needed, so any of you more eloquent
types with the necessary data in hand may want to reply to the article. The
arthor Erik Larson is really putting the hammer to FFL holders claiming that
they are responsible for much/most of the guns being run into the hands of
the criminal element. Also the BATF is being portrayed "in its relation-
ship with America's gun dealers the ATF behaves more like an indulgent
parent". This is dangerously "unbiased", and seems very "resonable".


I gave up trying to wade through tpg so if any wants any additional info
please e-mail. BTW, this guy obtained an FFL as a part of his research
into a new book on the domestic gun trade. It is only going to get worse.


Thanks for the indulgence Mr. Moderator.


geoff kotzar           gmk@falstaff.MAE.cwru.edu

[MODERATOR: I take this as a request for info, but ask the followup to
go off line, or t.p.g. which is where I've cross posted this.  Thanks,
as usual.]
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 1000 YD. BR QUESTION
Date: 21 Dec 92 03:23:42 GMT
Organization: who knows

2ftylunar@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes...
#Could someone tell me what is the best cal. for 1000 meter / 1000 yd benchrest 
#shooting. Would the 300-winchester magnum or 300-Weatherby magnum be
#better, I'm leaning towards the 300-Weatherby mag. Which receiver would be the
#best for this condition my preference is the rem-700 but I heard it is not a
#very strong action.  What barrel twist and bullet weight would be the optimum.

I'm not a 1000-yd. benchrester but from the results published by Precision
Shooting, the .308 Baer seems to be a favorite.  I picked one the issue randomly
and the May 1992, Original Pennsylvania 1000 yard Benchrest Club result for
May 1992 shows that the .308 Baer had 6 of the top 9 smallest groups  with
the 300 Wby taking second place, the 30 Ack 4th, and the 30.378 fifth.  Another
caliber used is the 30 Ace. This is only one sample result but does show some
of the calibers used.  It seems strange that only 30 cal is used; I'm not 
familiar with the rules but the rules may allow only 30 cal. One would think 
that with the new Sierra heavy .338 MK that it would be a contender for 
1000 yd. benchrest.
From: tmoore@tinton.ccur.com (Tim Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: ParaOrd Ramped bbls, (was Which SA .45 acp to purchase)
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:30:31 GMT


My father in law purchased one of the early PO aluminum framed .45s.  This
gun did not have a ramped barrel but was set up in the traditional way.  He
shot lots of JHPs and eventually they chewed the feedramp to smithereens.
PO replaced the frame with another just like it.  They explained that the 
"cure" for the problem was to use ramped barrels, however they would not
sell him a ramped frame.  You had to buy a complete gun to get a ramped frame.
He continues to shoot the gun and it works fine.  He just stays away from 
any bullet that has sharp features.  I think that gun is fed only cast lead
SWC bullets these days.

Does anybody know if both the steel and aluminum frames are ramped, or just
the aluminum?  Are they still not selling frames with ramps pre-cut?

--Tim
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless and WD40
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:35:25 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <EDP.92Dec14120552@roo.sneaks.kodak.com> edp@sneaks.kodak.com (Ed Pendzik -- Sun Consulting) writes:

}1) [WD-40 is] hydroscopic, (sp?) which means that it actually draws water from the
}air, thus it attracts water to your pistol.

WD-40 is often used to dry things that shouldn't be wet.  When I was
earning my A&P we routinely sprayed disassembled engine parts with WD-40
to prevent rust.  Most aircraft engine parts cost a _lot_ more than most
hand gun parts.

}I have been using break-free for years. it's thicker than wd-40,
}it doesn't attract water, and has teflon in it.
}
}plus it meets mil-spec and the military uses it, and they have some
}15 digit long number for it.

My understanding is WD-40 was originally developed for use on Titan
missiles.  What does the military use Break-Free for?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                Do not meddle in the affairs of
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  dragons, for you are crunchy
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        and go well with ketchup.
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:20:22 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <01GSCHT82ZQC000O91@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU> KEVIN@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte) writes:
#
##From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
##Subject:Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
#
###boone@athena.cs.uga.edu (Roggie Boone) writes:
#
###My question is, if one has to shoot inside a car (either at someone
###in your car, or through a windshield to get someone trying to get 
###into your car), how do you protect your ears (and those of passengers)
###from the blast noise?
##
#
#This sounds kinda gruesome but would it work?  Assuming you are in close
#proximity of the kidnapper anyway, could you just bury the muzzle in his
#side/gut whatever and pull the trigger?  Seems like most of the noise would be
#silenced by his clothes and body.  
#
-------------------deleted------------------------------

If you plan to do this, or in any way plan to fire a handgun
with something pressing backwards on the muzzle, be certain your
gun will fire in that condition.  All the Browning recoil-operated
actions I can think of have a disconnector to keep them from being
fired if the barrel/slide is not all the way forward.  Many other
types of autos do the same thing.  A revolver, of course, would
work just fine.

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: btree!andy@UCSD.EDU (Andy Bosik)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Isreal Guns Laws
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:04 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation

Hey Y'all!

Back in may I visited Israel and I really enjoyed it!
I noticed that many of the non-military citizens
regularly carry firearms for self-protection.
I'm curious as to what the concealed carry laws are,
also are non-citizens who are residents alowed to own
firearms,and are civilians allowed to own automatic
weapons?

Shalolm Y'all!
From: mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the car
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:56:34 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group Marketing


I seldom carry, and almost never when commuting, but I see a point to carrying
to prevent car-jackings.  You may not have time to get to your weapon if you are
the intended victim, but you would if it was the guy in the car next to you
being accosted.  Here in Arizona there are more than a few good Samaritans.

My $0.02 cents worth, after inflation :-)
Glen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Call                          Technical Marketing Systems Engineer
Motorola Computer Systems, Inc.    gcall@phx.mcd.mot.com or mcdapps!gcall
DISCLAIMER: The above is strictly my opinion.  I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MOTOROLA!
From: emba-news.uvm.edu!bashiti@sadye.EMBA.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Legal Age for Gun Ownership in New Jersey
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:33:14 GMT
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility

#From article <92349.200331JCEHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, by JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu:
   ...  Stuff deleted...
# would the young member.  Then the older member would buy whatever
# handgun the younger member wanted.  Afterwards the handgun would
# be legally "sold" from the older member to the younger member.  I
# realize that this constitutes a strawman sale as far as the licensed
# dealer is concerned but it is all legal under NJ law.
# 
     I'm sure there is also an exemption in Federal law which accounts
for family "gifts".  I doubt it would fall into that catagory.  In my
case when I took advantage of that NJ "glitch" the handguns were over
two years old anyway and a legit sale :>...

later,
AJ
From: ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Denver Police shoot man
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:23:41 GMT


In article <RTARAZ.92Dec10135616@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>, rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
|> #>>>> On 10 Dec 92 05:26:59 GMT, ryanm@stein.u.washington.edu (Ryan Mcneilly) said:
|> 
|> ryanm> In article <Byyvuw.Mx2@fc.hp.com> scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot
|> ryanm> Heath) writes: #SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, # #Don't point your gun
|> ryanm> at the police.  # #
|> 
|> 
|> ryanm> AMEN!  Why issue a warning when the man can see the police and
|> ryanm> he still points at them.
|> 
|> 
|> You always can not see the police specially if you are in a tense
|> situation. The police should really give the suspect a chance to
|> respond to the new factor (police beeing on the seen).  The first
|> thing to do when you hear a freeze is to turn around and see who said
|> it.  that seems to be the most comon _reflex_, and usually in tense
|> situations people don't think, they act on reflexes.
|> 
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> |\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
|> |\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
|> |\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|>       


All the officers I know here in Colorado and have watched in action usually 
identify themselves as police officers at the time they also give instructions.

For example, "Police officers, freeze!"  or " So and So County Sheriff, don't
move!" etc.  

The point is most officers are trained to ID themselves as soon as they encounter
a suspect so that no ambiguity exists as to their role and authority in the
situation at hand.

Larry
---------------------------------------------
Boycott Hollywood, San Fransisco and New York!
---------------------------------------------
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: KGP-161?
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

John Dimogotsis (jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au) wrote:
: 
: 	Anyone know what a KGP-161 is ? Thanks !
                           ^      =Stainless
                            ^^^^  =GP100 Frame
                                ^ =6" barrel
                                 ^=Heavy barrel

So, It's a Stainless Steel Ruger GP100 with a 6" Heavy (the ejector shroud
extends to the muzzle and is heavy) barrel.

-Scot
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More stupid TV stories
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:42:08 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory


Saw this on last Saturday's "Columbo:"

The murderer bought her pistol the day she used it (on the way to do the
deed, as I recall).  Columbo even made a point of mentioning it, having
traced the weapon to point of sale.

Problem is, the series is set in Los Angeles.  California law requires a
15 day waiting period when purchasing a firearm.  Oops.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                Do not meddle in the affairs of
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  dragons, for you are crunchy
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        and go well with ketchup.
From: ieeug464@Eagle.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKsomething Thanks
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:46:30 GMT
Organization: MSU


  To all who posted,
     
     Thanks, I think I'll order. 
                                        Dennis 
                                        ieeug464@eagle.oscs.montana.edu
From: ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Super Redhawk?
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:55:34 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Hello, Net-Folks,

    I'm just about ready to go and make my next pistol purchase.  This time
I'm looking for an accurate big bore revolver.  Right now, the best solution
seems to be a Super Redhawk 9.5" since I don't want to spend more than about
$450 before the scope.  However, I would really like some input from you who
know on this idea.
    Specifically, I'd like to know what you think of the Super Redhawk
overall.  Is it better/stronger/more accurate than the regular Redhawk?  Why?
What kind of work can I have done with this monster sometime when I have the
cash?  Can I bore it out for larger calibers?
    I'd like to make the purchase before the silly season hits full speed,
and, while I would like to hit the books on the subject, grad course book work
takes precedence here.  Thanks for any input.

Kent
-- 

****************************************
**     Kent P. Aitchison              **
**       ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu       **
**       Rauch Business Center 211    **
**       #37 Lehigh University        **
**       Bethlehem, PA  18015         **
From: tssmith@netcom.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Match, Wheel, Flint Locks
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:24:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <MCCON.92Dec17214240@ssdd475a.erim.org> mccon@ssdd475a.erim.org (Joe McConnell) writes:
#Get a copy of Pollard's History of Firearms (Ed Claude Blair, Macmillan)
#or Stone's Glossary.  Look up blunderbuss.

I was thinking arquebus and wrote the other.  What a blunder!  Thanks
for the reference.

--Tim (tssmith@netcom.com)
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT Hardballer
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:56:19 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


Well, the Hardballer has the extended slide release & safety, 
adjustable trigger, adjustable sights, and is all sytainless. The 
finish is probably up to par with Colt. There were a few casting marks 
in inconspicuous places on mine, but it has functioned flawlessly for 
8 years.

My gun came with only one magazine, but I recommend some good after 
market magazines (I would recommend these even if you were buying a 
colt -- flame me now Colt junkies). The factory mag has never failed 
me, but I like mags that come apart for cleaning that have good rounded 
followers.

Prices (I happen to have my Spartan Supply catalog here) are 436.77 for 
Spartan (they sell wholsale, but are usually not  great deal for guns).

Ask around............

Later, Eddie
From: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bart Simpson is the NRA
Date: 12 Dec 92 22:50:43 GMT
Organization: The Next Challenge, Fairfax, Va.


In article <9212111645.AA03117@spsgate.sps.mot.com> rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) writes:
#Just thought I'd let those of you who don't know that,
#as of last nights episode of "The Simpsons", Bart is now
#a fellow member of the NRA.


Actually that episode was a repeat from four months ago.

When it was first aired, a friend of mine who works NRA membership set
up and issued an NRA Jr membership in the name of Bart Simpson and
sent it to Matt Groenig.

Frank Ney N4ZHG EMT-A  NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA "M-O-U-S-E"
Commandant and Acting President, Northern Virginia Free Militia
Send e-mail for an application and more information
----------------------------------------------------------------
How about a seven day waiting period on books and newspapers?
-- 
The Next Challenge - Public Access Unix in Northern Va. - Washington D.C.
703-803-0391 To log in for trial and account info.
From: andrzej.taramina@rose.com (andrzej taramina)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .357mag vs .44mag
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:34:26 GMT
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.


Date Entered: 12-16-92 00:16

J(> hence the question does .44 offer some advantage over
J(> .357 when used for defense purposes? And under what
J(> set of conceivable circumstances?

Well....if you don't practice enough with either Magnum load to
be able to hit your target consistently, I suppose that once you
run out of ammo, the .44 will make a better club due to it's
generally heavier weight than the .357  ;-)

#From the 'broidery 'droid........Andrzej
---
   DeLuxe  1.12 #168   .357 Magnum:  Leaded Fuel Only!
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
From: canders%lacerta.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Cliff Anderson CIRT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: BushMaster Pistols
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:22:57 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

I came across an interesting pistol the other day while browsing 
in the local gun store.  It was called the "BushMaster Pistol".  This
gun was about the size of an Uzi pistol.  It looks like a midgit bullpup
of some type. This particular unit was in .223 caliber, (very interesting),
and accepted AR15 magazines.  It used the same type of bolt as an AR15 and 
actually had an AR looking flash hider.  This gun was made by GWINN Arms Co.

Does anyone have any experience with the pistol or its maker?    
If so, how much are one of these worth?

Thanks, Cliff.
From: scrandel@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (S. Crandell         )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: ***Beautiful M1 GARAND FOR SALE***
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:21:08 GMT


Hi all.  Well, I posted an M1 Garand for sale on this group a few
weeks ago and then chickened out.  I decided that I didn't want to
sell it.  HOWEVER, I just saw something I can't live without and I
am gonna sell my M1 if I can get a decent offer.

Caliber:   30-06
Condition:  Mint!  (Fired approx 500-750 times)

I bought this gun new in October of 1991 and have taken in out
shooting three or four times.  I love it but I don't shoot it enough
to warrant keeping it hanging on the wall.

The gun is in great shape and I have the original box and all
paperwork. It is made by Springfield Armory and it is a NEW Garand.
Not a surplus rifle.  It is very pretty.

I don't have to sell it but if I can get a reasonable price for it I
may be able to part with it.  When I graduate from college and get
rich I can always buy another one.  :)

I am asking $650.  Or make me an offer.  I'm a reasonable guy.

Email me at scrandel@sdcc13.ucsd.edu
or phone me in San Diego at (619) 549-2264.  I will return all
calls.

Sean

-- 
)
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:44 GMT

#My brother once followed a guy for 5 blocks, waiting for him to 
#screw up.  The guy apparently saw him following so he didn't do
#anything wrong.  When my brother got tired of waiting, he pulled
#him over anyway.  Why?  The guy yelled obcenities at a fellow
#officer who was directing traffic (a thoroughly thankless job
#if you ask me).  The result?  The guy recieved a citation for
#"unnecessary noise from a motorized vehicle." :-)  He was extremely
#belligerent during the whole process, which simply made my
#brother feel that much better about writing the ticket.

I received a rather abusive email response regarding this story.
Since it is possible that the response was a result of misunderstanding
rather than simply a case of blind hatred for officers (the gentleman
indicated that the world would be better off if someone put a bullet
in my brothers chest), I would like to clear something up.

My brother was following the guy BECAUSE he yelled obcenities.  He
was hoping the guy would do something else for which he could be
cited.  When he did not, my brother satisfied himself with a single
citation.

The point I was trying to make is that politeness, (or at least the
lack of hostility) may spare you grief in the end.  This is not only
true with police officers, but with anybody.  Hostility will only be
met with hostility (it's the HUMAN not POLICE condition).  Personally,
I think the guy my brother cited was an -BLEEP- and recieved a just
reward.

For those of you still reading, I apologize for the morality lesson.

For future reference, contradictory opinions are accepted, if
grudgingly :-), abuse is not.  If you can not send a polite statement
of your views (you know who you are), don't bother sending anything.
I'll simply slam-dunk it in the bit-bucket and add you to my kill file.

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:39 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

Paul Yoshimune writes:
##visbly displayed.   I can see it both ways:  don't want to make a good
##cop's day stressful but I also resent it being assumed that I'm a violent
##criminal.  And I still think getting out of the car renders you less
##likely to really be dangerous!  And are you supposed to know the correct
##approach intuitively?
         <stuff deleted to save bandwidth>
#You resent it being assumed that you're a violent criminal?  Maybe you should
#try being a cop.  I mean, think about it - you deal with people all day who
#are pissed off because you're giving them tickets or whatever, plus all the
#violence directed toward you by perps.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike cops for the most part.  Absolutely
all of my encounters with the police have been polite/cordial encounters.
I didn't berate them for doing their job and they didn't come to my car
with their guns drawn.  The one time I was stopped for a moving violation
(even though I was only going half of my motorcycle's 140 mph capability :),
the cop let me off with a warning (he was on a bike too and saw that I was
driving safely, though above the speed limit).

However, I feel there's something basically wrong with a system where
I have to be so worried about appearing harmless, when I've never harmed
anyone in my life.  Sure, part of it is due to the fact that violent
criminals have been released from jail to make room for pot smokers but
I can't exactly help that.  But I still feel that, as in politics, there's
a basic reversal of what should be, here:  that the politicians and police
have become our masters, where the theory is that they are our servants.

Apologies to our moderator, if I've ventured too far into politics here.

#Please, don't take this as me "flaming" you or getting on your case - just
#think about what your average cop has to deal with day in and day out...

Understood.

Happy holidays,

  don



[MODERATOR:  As mentioned in a previous post, this thread will be migrating
to t.p.g. (or elsewhere if a better suggestion can be made....)]
From: mauser@intercon.com (Richard Chandler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "Reality" shows and guns
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:20:43 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway


 From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
#  Or my favorite semi-auto screw-up goes like this:

[deleted]

#  I guess the directors or actors think it looks neat to pull that 
#  slide back, and let it slam forward.  Only problem is that there
#  wil be live ammo laying all over the floor, and your gun will
#  be empty rather quickly :-)

My favorite similar example was from a show about this late-night DJ.
He goes to the bank, which is being robbed.
Naturally, one of the robbers is a "Crazed Vietnam Veteran" type (God I hate 
that!)
The Vet guy was, of course, tense and psycho as hell, and punctuated his 
every screaming outburst by racking the pump on his shotgun.