HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Carabiner brake, was Re: No More Write-Ups?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:47:52 GMT

The description given by the fellow, if I am reading correctly is
a Swiss-S or a Swiss Wrap.  It puts a kink into the rope, but it is useful
in that it uses less gear.  Diagrams appear in older versions of
Freedom of the Hills and in military manuals.  Perfectly legit means
when done right.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Fall Factor II
Date: 5 Nov 92 09:59:54 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

This is not to flame this particular author but as more as warning to
others who know just enough to lead others astray.  Remind me not to
hire any of the people on the net as professional engineers when the
they finish school (and you have finished school may I suggest a
refresher course in first year physics).  I have seen several blantly
and obvious wrong examples given in this tread an this just another
example (This author was right but did not carry out his thoughts far
enough before making a generalization.  I am being very picky with
this one but it proves my point).

In article <13394@ecs.soton.ac.uk> tpm@ecs (TP Monks) writes:
>The potential energy when you fall is mass*gravity*height,

True.

>so consider taking a factor 1 fall:
>Falling 10m will give you rope 10 times more energy to absorb than falling 
>1m, but you'll also have 10 times more rope out to absorb it,
>so the energy that each cm of rope absorbs is always the same,

True in this particular case, which is when the fall factor
remains constant with each fall, FALSE otherwise.  Proof by example is
not acceptable unless you can prove it for every case.  Try again with
a different fall factors, you will find that the ammount of energy each
cm of rope aborbs is different for different fall factors.

Example: FF=.5, 2m fall 4m rope   vs   FF=2, 20m fall 10m of rope.

   KE/rope		mg*2/4			     mg*20/10

Note that the fall is 10 times greater but the fall factor is four
times greater also.  As such, the amount of energy absorbed
per length of rope is directly proportional the the fall factor.
Amazing how that works, concidering they test ropes at almost the
maximum possible fall factor.  (Max fall factor, max energy).

>and the rate of deceleration is the same.
>This means that although you prefer the 1m fall, your rope couldn't care
>either way.  (Unless of course you reach terminal velocity first!)

Now after reading this would you be willing to a volunteer for a
little experiment ;-).  I would be more than willing to demonstrate
that your rope will care how far you fall.

Since I am a licensed engineer and have done dynamic and static
testing of climbing equipment I will graciously accept any and all
corrections.  Anybody want to try and figure out what the impact force
is ? (one example was already incorrctly given ;-).

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah



"I though you brought the rope"
	A climber to their partner after hiking in 10 miles.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Getting started
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 23:45:06 GMT

In article <Bx5Kr9.25o@spdg.com> rwaters@spdg.com (Rolland Waters) writes:
>I was going to remain quiet too, but Eugene, I have to ask, what grade
>can you climb at and keep both feet on before you put a hand up?  

IIIs and IVs and the occasional IIs.
I'm one of those who was taught "balance" and keeping the weight on
the feet.  And of course one tries to avoiding reaching too far.  So I like to
check my foot holds first.

>I'm generally left foot, left hand, and then either right foot or right
>hand, depending on whether or not it's a static reach to the right
>hold.  That is, for dynamic moves I generally jump from the ground,
>since typically the ground is a pretty good foothold.  :-)

You must be in your right brain 8^)

How do you tell the difference between a dynamic move and a lunge? 8^)

Gomez said to say Hi back.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
The More right foot, left foot, left hand, right hand,... kinda guy.
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: bobh@fuji.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Favorite Kor quote was Re: No More Wright-Ups?
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:09:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona -- Tucson, AZ

In article <1992Nov11.160208.12785@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> kjl@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (K J Leiden) writes:
>
>My favorite is Kor saying "Don't fall now or we'll both go!" 
>to numerous partners throughout the '60s.  
>
>I love yelling this one to my second anytime my belay is marginal.
>
>
>-- 
>Ken Leiden
>Sunnyvale, CA
>kjl@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com 

I prefer something a little more understated. After having led a pitch on
a wall, I like to yell down to the second "OK, you can jumar now ... but
don't get too rowdy."

Bob Harrington
bobh@hwr.arizona.edu
From: butrfeld@swift.cs.tcd.ie
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Fall Factor II
Date: 9 Nov 92 10:23:57 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Trinity College Dublin

> mzp24@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Marshall Pease) writes:
> 
>>Actually a bigger fall *still* takes longer, science notwithstanding.
>>Longer falling, longer stopping.  From the rope's point of view:
>>more time to stretch, probably will stretch further?  I would 
>>think.  Therefore more gentle stop, a big fall is actually
>>*easier* than a small one!  meaning peak force might be a tad
>>Yet another point: the statement has been made that the pain to 
>>the rope depends only on "the weight (or mass) of the faller times
>>the fall factor", so a 200 pounder taking a factor 1 fall is
>>the same as a 100 pounder taking a factor 2 fall, etc.  

NO ! The force on the rope, and faller depends on weight, distance of fall
AND STIFFNESS OF ROPE - it will be at least TWICE the clibers weight
regardless of the fall factor. Old stiff ropes will result in higher
forces. If you don't beleive this then ask yourself if you are willing to 
take a serious fall on static rope (or the old hemp stuff !).

A rule of thumb I encountered is that a factor 1 fall results in about 1000kg
force (2200 lbs) on the rope --- I'm not certain of this.

It's a simple trade-off really, the more strectchy the role, the more gentle
the stop, but the higher the risk of cratering :-)

Andrew Butterfield
Dept. of Comp. Sci.,
Trinity College Dublin,
Ireland
butrfeld@cs.tcd.ie
From: calum@ivy.clu.cf.ac.uk (Calum Gordon)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Is there anybody...OUT THERE?
Date: 11 Nov 92 10:17:16 GMT
Reply-To: Calum Gordon <calum@clu.cf.ac.uk>
Organization: Computational Linguistics Unit, Univ of Wales College of Cardiff
Posting-Software: GNUS: NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs

In article <1992Nov6.185538.16843@buck.ac.uk> brendan@buck.ac.uk (Brendan Murphy) writes:

>  The weather here this summer has been pretty poor which has made it a 
>  relatively quiet cragging season for a lot of people.  Having said this, a
>  young British guy (whose name escapes me) has just repeated Ben Moon's "Hubble"
>  which I think is given French 8c+ and is reckoned to be one of the hardest 
>  routes in the world.  Apparently, he's been funded by a sponsor to go to
>  Germany and try a repeat of Wolfgang Gullich's route "Action Direct" (I think
>  it's called) which has been given a tentative grade of French 9a.

Yep, Malcolm Smith, and a Scot to boot! Frae' bonny Edinburgh. Could
he be the nineties version of that other great Smith that dominated
Scottish rock-climbing in the fifties ...?

>  For those armchair mountaineers amongst us, there are a number of less strenuous
>  options to help us while away the winter.  Kurt Deimberger has been giving
>  his "K2 Endless Knot" lecture around the country; my girlfriend saw it in
>  Leeds and said it was "very moving".  

Yes he's been around the climbing scene a long time. His lecture
covers his lifetime's association with K2, from 1957 when he first
climbed Broad Peak with Buhl and saw K2 across the Godwin-Austen,
various other trekking expeditions around the Karakorum, and then
concentrates on the 1986 events, which he talks about honestly and
vividly, while never being sentimental or tragic. Worth seeing.

>  The Alpine Club annual symposium, on the
>  Alps, happens next weekend at Plas-y-Brenin; mail me if you want a ticket.

See you there!

Going to see Doug Scott tonight ("Himalayan Climber" lecture). Should
be good. 
--
** Calum Gordon <calum@clu.cf.ac.uk>      ** TEL: +44-222-874000-x5310 **
** Computational Linguistics Unit (CLU)   ** FAX: +44-222-874293       **
** University of Wales College of Cardiff ** JAN: <calum@uk.ac.cf.clu> **
** ----- "People with (a) CLU use Suns; CLUless people use Macs" ----- **
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jc@optimla.aimla.com (John VanHoozer)
Subject: Re: Carabiner brake, was Re: No More Write-Ups?
Organization: OptImage Interactive Services Co., L.P.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 19:48:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.162956.5721@ncar.ucar.edu>, ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
|> In article <8f085Q600axfAPjV8A@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Christopher L. Morrow" <cm43+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|>  
|> > there is a way to rappell without a standard rappell/belay device...
|> > 
|> > just wrap the rope around a biner that is clipped into your harness and
|> > away you go.  Unfortunately this wy is very fast, and if done
|> > incorrectly, it can be very deadly.  
|> 
|> This is not the carabiner brake system I use.  

		<4 'biner brake system description deleted>

I have been taught the one 'biner brake, too.  Just a word of warning:

  When doing this be careful not to get a shirt or sling caught in
  the biner...  you'll come to a real quick stop and have a lot of 
  fun getting out! (take a prussik sling with you)

			jc

___________________________________________________________________________
John C. VanHoozer			     |
OptImage Interactive Services Company, L.P.  |  uunet!{optimage,aimla}!jc
11040 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite #300	     |  Fax:  (310)445-5720
Los Angeles, Ca. 90025			     |  Phone:(310) 445-5721
___________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer:
   Opinions,  yew doone neeed my steenkeeng Opinions.

My fiance is going back to school to study icthyphrenology...  what
ever that is.
From: L.Dekker@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Bowles: UK mini-report
Date: 9 Nov 92 15:26:58 GMT

Sorry, no report on Harrison's - my climing partner and I decided 
that, being at the mercy of public transport, we'd go for Bowles. 
This was especially important since Sussex is almost in the Arctic 
Circle (sic) and the winter nights are drawing in.

Bowles is in quite an eroded state - the starts getting gradually
harder because of the increasing overhang and the longer stretch 
up (especially for a shortie, like me!), though this doesn't 
seem to register in the grades!

It's a well looked after place, though - they're concreting over 
places where ropes erode the soft sandstone, and they must be 
algiciding it, because it's pretty free of slimy green stuff.

We bouldered about on most of the stretch, including Drosophila and 
the well-named Banana! A fun, short outing was had.

Mind you, give me gritstone, any day...

Perhaps this could be the start of a new argument... Why gritstone
is infinitely superior (:-> ) to sandstone/limestone/granite...

	Laura
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: RElearning to lead
Date: 10 Nov 1992 10:31:30 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Nov10.171100.29955@ncar.ucar.edu>,
ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.111530.13912@watson.ibm.com>, eru@watson.ibm.com (Erich Ruetsche) writes:
>> Climbing is first of all fun !! So learning to lead should be done in an
>> area where leading can be doen without any fear. That means good holds and
>> good anchors == BOLTS.
>
I hope everyone realized that good anchors do NOT neccessarily equal
bolts.  Almost anyone who has climbed for a while has reached a bolt
anchor that makes you blood run cold!!   I suggest beginning leaders
avoid bolts for a while to they don't get dangerously seduced by
their appearent (but often false) security.  Ditto for fixed pins.
Also your ultimate goal can be a factor.  I recently seconded for a
friend on her first couple of leads.  She asked me to choose routes
with no fixed pro since her longer tern interests involve alpinism
where fixed equipment is rare to non-existant.

>Yeah, this worked for me.  I had been climbing about 5.7 or so when I
>joined the local gym.  There, I managed to improve to about 5.10a, at which
>point I started leading the gym climbs (the easiest were 5.9).  By the
>time I started climbing outdoors again in the spring (not counting an
>occasional outdoors jaunt at 5.8 or 5.9), I could lead 5.10a and top-rope
>5.10b/c -- in the gym, of course.

I haven't had much to do with climbing walls but some of my comments
above may apply to them as well.  Graduating from artificial walls
to natural rock may result in rude surprises.   In addition to the
availablity of pro and the confrontation with cracks, OW and
chimneys it may come as surprise that easier climbs are often more
dangerous due the exitence of ledges and knobs to strike.  Climbing
at level below 5.9/5.10 falling shouldn't be taken as casually as on
higher grades when you generally only have air beneath you.  This as
much as hemp ropes was probably behind the old timers dictum that
"the leader must not fall".
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Decking on the 1st Pitch of Touch and Go
Keywords: terminology, lingo, thread
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 11:04:05 CET
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

sidel+@pitt.edu (Philip S Sidel) writes:

> 
>  (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
> >.... there is a very
> >good thread for a runner just before you commit to the traverse.  If
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
> >you cannot find the thread, you have been spending too much time in the
> >climbing gym staring at big bolts, get out and get on real rock!
> 
> What is a "thread for a runner?"  I never heard the term. I can make a
> 
> I am posting instead of E-mail on the egocentric assumption that if
> I don't know the term, there may be others who never heard it either.
> 
You're darn right :-) I can figure out most of the times what you guysare 
talking about. But sometimes it just keeps me flabbergasted. I am more 
used to german/french terms.


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
From: gnray@world.std.com (Garry N Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Diemburger and Scott lectures
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:34:00 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Do these fellows ever lecture in the U.S.? Or any of the other European
paragons I've been idolizing for the past 15 years?
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: 'You know you're old when' revisited
Date: 6 Nov 1992 12:15:00 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Nov06.001037.20078@news.mentorg.com>,
janem@smills.mentorg.com (Jane Merrow) writes:
>
>--
>
>My husband and I started rock climbing last fall, and are
>now avid climbers, and continuing to improve technically all
>the time (very satisfying).  Here's my question.  We're both
>40 years old (darn, all those years we could have been climbing
>but didn't know) and are wondering how aging affects
>climbing abilities.  I assume strength and balance diminish
>sometime along the way, and that one might have to be satisfied
>with lower-difficulty climbs.  Are there any 50, 60, or 70 year
>old climbers out there?  How many years climbing do we have left?

Well I'm "only" 44, but a friend who turned 50 several years ago is
not only active but regularly climbs in the 5.11+ range.  He may be
up to 5.12 by now.  Just keep light, keep in shape and keep at it!
>
>Another side question, how many folks out there climb with
>their spouses?

I don't do this but from what I've seen of others the results are
spotty at best.  At least one divorce I know of resulted.  If you
can manage without competing or one of expecting too much from the
other that's OK.  Your age may be in your favor as maturity should
mitigate some of the clashes.
>
From: sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: who owns the bolts?
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:32:24 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

Wayne refers to possible ownership of the bolts... 
I explicitly addressed that with the local FS and they wanted none of it.
Ownership implies responsibility which implies liability... No go.
If they don't, who does?
I agree though, sad though it is, bolting committees might be the way it
is all heading.
Bob.
Organization: Junior, Chemical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:49:56 -0500 
From: "Christopher L. Morrow" <cm43+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Carabiner brake, was Re: No More Write-Ups?
	<1992Nov11.162956.5721@ncar.ucar.edu>

the carabiner (multiple type) brake is an excellent rappell system, but the 
one that I was refering to is the single carabiner brake.  When set up 
properly the rope sort of winds around the straight section of the biner.
I do caution that this way can be extremely dangerous if setup wrong...
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ian@two-step.seas.upenn.edu (Ian M Glazer)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: RE Laws Suits and Chouinard
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:39:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


	For anyone who cares:
The details of the Chouinard suit are:  A LAWYER and some of his buddies went
climbing in I think that Tetons. After a lunch break the group continued to climb.  This scuz ball fell and soemthing let go and he fell ot his death. (Yeah, one less lawyer.) Apparently, during the lunch break this guy took off his harness to go to the bathroom. When he put it back on his clipped a carabiner to a poorly non-doubled back harness and then clipped a figure eight on a bite to the carabiner.  The bottom line is that he's dead.
	 A few months later, his buddies (lawyers also) sued everyone invovled in the name of this dead guys wife. The rest is history....
And now Chouinard is Black Diamond...

If this little article brought you any enjoyment e-mail me.
Ian Glazer
ian@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
From: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Drew)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Fall Factor
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:18:50 GMT
Distribution: rec.climbing
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Hi climbers

There were several discussions about the fall factor and the UIAA tests.
I have heard different explanations about them.  Finally, I obtained a book,
entitled "Handbook of Climbing,"  published by the British Mountaineering
Council (BMC).  It explains both of these terms quite clearly.  Assuming that
the Authours of the book are right, let me try to define them.  

Fall Factor 
	Fall Factor = Length of Fall / Length of Available Rope  
	In other words, if the leader falls 5m and the length of the rope
between the leader and the belayer is 10m, the fall factor will be 0.5.

UIAA Drop Test
	"In this a weight is dropped free for 5m with 2.8m of rope in use.  
The rope is attached to a fixed point and passed through an orifice plate with
a smooth-finished 5mm radius rubbing edge 0.3m above it.  This gives a fall
factor of 1.78.  A rope must withstand five falls like this without breaking.
The number of falls held gives an indication of the rope's safety reserves.
The weight used in 80kg for a single rope and 55kg for a half-rope.  During 
the first test fall the impact force must not exceed 12 kilo Newtons."  (Quoted
from "Handbook of Climbing," Pg 31.) 


anDrew
-- 
+-----------   @}-'--   -----------+  "To Serve, To Strive and Not to Yield"
|      Lee, On-Lit Andrew          |               - Motto of Outward Bound 
|                                  | 
|  email: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |  "Your disability is your opportunity"
|  University of Texas at Austin   |               - Kurt Hahn,  
+----------------------------------+                 Founder of Outward Bound
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: IMAX theaters
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:16:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: exodus.lfiso2INN6tn
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

In article <eric.720942024@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
>sinclair@cc.usu.edu (Bob Sinclair) writes:
>
>>Anyone heard anything about an IMAX theater presentation that includes
>>footage of a climber taking a big whipper? A colleague at work said he
>>saw such a film in San-somewhere or another, but had no further details.
>>Claimed it was pretty good though.
>
>Truly the worst climbing footage I've ever seen.  Hero-man free climbing
>big wall with rope but no evidence of a belayer or other system.  Makes
>hard moves, trundles big boulders, falls on the 5.6 bit, dangles on frayed
>rope, swings in space, further fraying the rope, grabs rock just as the
>rope breaks in two.

Did you walk into the middle of this movie?  As I recall the film
was called "To the Limit" and besides the action described above, it
contained a 5 minute sequence of Tony Yaniro free soloing "Desert Gold"
a 5.13 crack climb that goes out a 20 foot roof in Red Rocks.  Very,
very impressive.  Tony was also the climber who took the big whipper.

Bruce

ps - if you want to talk about lame climbing movies, check out the
video starring Randy Leavitt, I think it is called "Over the Edge".
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Carabiner brake, was Re: No More Write-Ups?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:27:45 GMT

In article <6Re5TB2w165w@stam.nl> nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp) writes:
>Question: What is a Sticht plate.

The first of the approved mechanical belay devices (back in the late 70s)
to gain acceptance.  A simple device used in conjunction with a biner.
AKA "The hockey puck."  Later versions incorporated a spring.  Made by Salewa.

>For rappelling I use a piece of metal in the form of a figure eight. 
>What is the english name for this device. 

Figure-of-8. Figure-8. Figure-eight.  Descendeur.

>Following up to this leads me 
>to the next question. Is there a dictionary that translates english 
>climber terms to german/french and vice-versa. 

Soc.culture.french.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
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