HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:59:27 GMT

In article <Jan.4.18.28.39.1993.23427@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

# astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
 
# >The death of a child is always a tragic event. It's truly shameful
 
# So ask the Israeli blood thirsty government to stop using machine guns
# against 9 year old civilians.
 
	Better yet, ask the parents not to commit an act of child abuse by
sending her out.  Or best yet, write to the Israeli Attorney General to
press child abuse charges against the parents.

# >that the girl's parents were more interested in her participating in
# >violence against the Israelis than in her safety.
 
# Can you prove that the parents of this girl did not ask her to stay
# out of trouble ... What if this girl disobeyed her parents and went
# down to the streets to fight the ugly oppressors. What if she was 
# fighting for a principle that no one in the world would be able to
# divert her from. 

	A 9 year old?  As to the "what if" question you ask, that
situation does not exist there so it is irelevent.

# >Here in America,
# >such parents would be be prosecuted for, at the very least,
# >endangering the welfare of their child.
 
# Don't you dare compare America to the Nazi Zionists. The American "rule
# over diversity" is unprecedented in history.

	Don't you make up comments like "Nazi Zionists".  They only show
you to be a Nazi for participating in the Nazi big lie technique.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Occupation
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:45:17 GMT

In article <Jan.2.15.19.57.1993.27014@staccato.rutgers.edu>, marwang@staccato.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
> 
|> No ... 3000 years ago when the hebrews came, palestine was not empty,
|> there were the Kanaaneet bedouwins (Considered Arab).

The Canaanites occupied the entire area that comprises present day Palsetine,
Syria, and Lebanon. They were not bedouwins since they dwelled in cities.
Furthermore, they were not Arabs and probably the majority of the people who
occupy the above countries are direct decendants of the Canaanites.

The fact that people in the area speak Arabic does not mean they came from
Arabia via the Islamic conquest.

A.Faris
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 7 Jan 93 16:23:21 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1993Jan6.184351.11245@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, aberman@cs.washington.edu (Andrew Berman) writes:
> In article <29915@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>
>>~Or maybe ask the arabs to stop sending small children to the streets to throw
>>~stones.
>>~
>>
>>Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your supposition is correct, it
>>is strange that Israeli response to child abuse is to shoot the victims,
>>rather than punish the abusers.
>
> Uh, the Israeli response to child abuse is to arrest the abusers when
> evidence exists.
>
> The Israeli response to having stones thrown at them in a riot is to
> break up the riot.  That the stones thrown are a result of child abuse
> is secondary at this point.
>
> The Israeli soldier reponse to a clear threat (i.e., someone running at you)
> 	1) Yell (in Arabic) that the offender should halt.
> 	2) Yell again in Arabic.
> 	3) Yell a third time.




Every Israeli soldier has the phrase WAKAF ERJAH drilled into him  until he
knows it *perfectly*.And yes, you are correct in the sequence of warning shots.






> 	4) Shoot in the air.
> 	5) Shoot at the ground.
> 	6) Shoot at the legs.
> 	7) Shoot at the body.
>
> This, by the way, comes from an Israeli soldier friend of mine who's
> friend was recently killed. I don't know which step he had
> reached when he was killed.
>
> It might be interesting to publish the standard American or British
> police or military response to someone running at them.


THEY SHOOT TO KILL !!!!!



>  The French
> response to a truck coming towards them in Somalia was to shoot up
> the truck, killing several occupants.  I heard no great outcry
> here about that.
>
> I also heard no great outcry when a Montana teenager was sent to 30 years
> in prison for throwing stones at passing cars.   But I digress..
>
>


You mean in democratic Amerika ???? Where the Supreme Court ruled that it's OK
to execute a retarded 15 year old black boy convicted of murder ?

I'm sure that if American police or National Guard units had to face ONE TENTH
the ferocity of the Palestinian Intifada there would be a bloodbath.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



>>--
>>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=
>>
>>This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
>>Bloody good value if you ask me.
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> Andrew P. Berman
> --
> Andrew P. Berman           |  "I have no idea what White House statement was
> Dept. of Computer Science  |  was issued, but I stand by it 100 percent"
> University of Washington   |    -- Richard Darman
> aberman@cs.washington.edu  |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24876 soc.culture.greek:12078 soc.history:10586
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The children of "18-year-old democracy".
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 20:27:42 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C0F05M.LLn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> Get your Cosar/Mutlu/ARGIC out of soc.culture.greek!!!!

Nobody is going to give you that. You might give at least the
memory of it to yourself if you try. I know it doesn't make sense,
but since when is "tamtam" about sense, anyway. Besides, in its 
entire history Greece has never been a democracy - except for the 
last 18 years. The Turkish rule in Greece ended in 1821 and since 
then, for more than 150 years, Greece was ruled either by a monarch 
or a military junta. When Greece attempted to annex Cyprus in 1974 
with a clumsy coup, Turkiye acted swiftly to foil this larceny, and 
the junta also toppled in the tremor. Therefore, Greece must be indebted 
to Turkiye for its own fledgling democracy.

Furthermore, the evolution of democracy leads one to believe that
the cradle of democracy is really in England, rather than in Greece.
The Greek version of 'democracy' was purely an accident. It was a 
product of the love of fallacy and a passion for sophistry of the 
ancient Greeks. No mechanism or method to make it worth was set 
forth, save a loose oratory. On the other hand, the British adapted 
the concept, developed it, turned it into a reality from a mere 
fantasy, and made it work. Had democracy really been an inherent 
virtue of Greeks would it have dragged its feet for so long to come 
to Greece? Even today, democracy is just so much as a catchword among 
the tourism slogans of Greece - not much substance and a lot of aura.

And you are a living proof of it.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject:  Gulf war bills (Re: Wayne McGuire, Israel and the U.S
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:41:55 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.173801.2620@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:
> 
>Saudi, for the U.S is a REGIME which does not report to its inhabitants.

of course this is a major advatage as far as the U.S is concerned.

>
>
>Israel is ruled by a government which must think of its own electors
>before thinking about foreign affairs. There lies the american 
>"problem" with israel, but there lies also the benefit. 

there is practically no benefit for the U.S.. If Israel was a dictatorship
it would be more predictable and controllable by the U.S.

>
>For example:
>Israel has not based its security upon U.S. troops "coming to visit" 
>defending the country and its regime, like
>under "desert storm". I think "desert storm" costed the U.S more than 
>the annual support to israel (though I dont have the figures), and
>could have easily resulted in heavy american loss of lives. The support
>to israel has so far not have such consequences.
WRONG!, 
the answer is:
1)The gulf war was about Israel and oil, the security of those regimes
is a means to those ends and not a goal in itself.
2)Those fat bills were paid by the fat Sheikhs and some western countries.
The U.S actually ended up with a surplus.


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25050 soc.culture.greek:12122
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:30:40 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1984@spam.ua.oz>, jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
> In article <1992Dec27.233559.25590@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>
>>There is enough land there for everyone.  The early Zionists
>>anticipated living together in peace with the few Arabs who were
>>already there;
>
> Which early Zionists might these be? Herzl never recognised or perhaps
> even knew about the Arabs in Palestine so he's out. The only people I
> know who addressed the issue referred to displacing the Arabs through
> various forms of purchase. No peaceful coexistence there. Ben Gurion
> spelt it out by saying that a 40% Arab minority was unacceptable and
> would threaten the very basis of the Jewish State. In short I think
> you are wrong, if you know of an early Zionist who really expected
> peaceful coexistence then I would like to know his/her name!
>

How about Jabotinsky who hoped that "BEN NATZRAT, BEN ARAV Ve-AMI"
(I think this is the correct quotation) could live together in peace
in Israel. BEN NATZRAT (Christians), BEN ARAV (Arabs) VE-AMI ("my people"=
Jews).

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




>
> Joseph Askew
>
>
> --
> Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
> Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
> One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24690 soc.culture.greek:12045
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re:  Gulf war bills (Re: Wayne McGuire, Israel
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:20:06 GMT

In article Ers@newsflash.concordia.ca, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.173801.2620@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:
>> 
>>Saudi, for the U.S is a REGIME which does not report to its inhabitants.
>
>of course this is a major advatage as far as the U.S is concerned.
>
>>
>>
>>Israel is ruled by a government which must think of its own electors
>>before thinking about foreign affairs. There lies the american 
>>"problem" with israel, but there lies also the benefit. 
>
>there is practically no benefit for the U.S.. If Israel was a dictatorship
>it would be more predictable and controllable by the U.S.
>
>>
>>For example:
>>Israel has not based its security upon U.S. troops "coming to visit" 
>>defending the country and its regime, like
>>under "desert storm". I think "desert storm" costed the U.S more than 
>>the annual support to israel (though I dont have the figures), and
>>could have easily resulted in heavy american loss of lives. The support
>>to israel has so far not have such consequences.
>WRONG!, 
>the answer is:
>1)The gulf war was about Israel and oil, the security of those regimes
>is a means to those ends and not a goal in itself.
>2)Those fat bills were paid by the fat Sheikhs and some western countries.
>The U.S actually ended up with a surplus.
>
>


What is wrong with that ?
We have the budget deficit !




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hnoble@eskimo.com (Henry Noble)
Subject: Mail Address for Yitzhak Rabin and the Knesset
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 03:49:00 GMT


I'd like to let the Israeli leadership know I deplore
the brutal deportations.  Does anyone know the mail 
address I can use?
Thanks
-henry
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: It's come THE DEATH OF MUTLU
Date: 8 Jan 1993 06:29:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


--------------------NEWSFLASH----------------

In a flash of hot air he was gone.
Serdar argic aka Hassan Mutlu, was
executed today by exceedingly slow
and painful torture by the prime
ministers of Greece and Armenia, as
well as Eric Perlman and Ilan Woll
from the nation of tpm.  Outside, 
millions cheered and hugged as the 
man commonly known as "the sickest,
most depraved bastard on Earth.  In
Vatican City, there was a minute of
silence as the pope celebrated the
death of Mutlu.  Editorials from 
newspapers everywhwere wrote praise
for the death of "The Byzantine 
Barbarian".  Saddam Hussein held 
back tears as "the most insane man 
I've met besides myself" died.  Many
hope this will be the last hurrah for
the NETerminator, but the fear of a 
ghost are very real, spewing nonsense
on computer ,boards everywhere.  Lets
hope not.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: Report: U.S. insists Pakistan prove it's not backing terrorists
Keywords: international, non-usa government, government, terrorism, non-usa economies, economy
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:51:47 GMT

If you are not convinced yet that the U.S's list of "states that support
terrorism" is a blackmail tool to pressure idependent governments into
submission, then this news item might not convince you, I will try anyway.

	ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (UPI) -- The United States has given Pakistain 180
 days to prove it is not promoting international terrorism, or else face
 weapons and trade sanctions, a report in Islamabad said Saturday.
 	Pakistani Foreign Secretary Shaharyar Khan told The News, an
 independent newspaper, that U.S. Ambassador John Manjo delivered the
 ultimatum Thursday.
 	The newspaper said Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Syeda
 Abida Hussain, was called to the State Department the same day and told
 of the warning by Arnold Kanter, the assistant secretary of state.
 	If Pakistan cannot prove its innocence, it risks being placed on a
[Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?]
 State Department list of terrorist states and could to face arms and
 trade sanctions and other punitive actions, diplomatic sources said in
 Islamabad.
[of course Pakistan can only prove its innocence by renouncing to its
nuclear program, CAN YOU SAY BLACKMAIL BOYS AND GIRLS?]
 	``The more important fact is that Pakistan is not on the list yet and
 the Clinton administration will now decide upon the issue within the
 next four months,'' Khan said.
 	Washington has objected to Pakistan's support for Kashmiri insurgents
 fighting for independence from India.
 	Pakistan claims it provides only political and diplomatic support to
 the fighters, and not material help, as India claims.
 	But British Home Secretary Kenneth Clarke told a news conference in
 Islamabad earlier this week he believed the Pakistani government was
 also giving material support to the fighters.
End quote.

I think that based on this criterion, the U.S is the first country that should
be put on its own list, consider the following:
1)The illegal creation of the Nicaragua contra thugs and the support (overt
and covert) of their mainly "terrorist activities"
2)The U.S sponsered "terrorist" activities in Lebanon, Sudan, Somalia (not the
current invasion but the U.S was the main cause for what happened), Afghanistan
(previously called freedom fighters, now Fundamentalists), Liberia, Zair, and
you name it, the U.S is there..


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24621 talk.politics.soviet:10202 soc.culture.greek:12020 soc.culture.europe:10992 soc.history:10520 soc.culture.soviet:11783
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: What do "Ilan Uri Woll" and "Boghosian" have in common? ASALA/SDPA/ARF?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 07:27:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) says:

>In article <1i3ch6INNrkv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>
>>WATCH FOR IT AT NET SITES EVERYWHERE.
>
>G*d must love the clowns; He made so many of them. Now, any comment?
 
No, just an ordinary slob pointing out what an ass you are.

And just for the note, I am neither Armenian nor Greek, and didn't appreciate
deleting all that irrelevant crap you put at the end.

I neither know nor care who Boghosian is, nor do I care what you think.

Take this very simple fact, I posted on tpm only, you responded in 7
different netgroups.  Who's the clown now?

If ignorance is bliss, you must be in Nirvana.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@hertz.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:31:35 GMT

This is a response to the quote from the book published by Harvard University
Press. The quote is taken from a post from Wayne McGuire ( sorry if I misspelt)
and, unfortunately, I had a hard time responding directly from the article.
However, there were some points in that quote that need to be addressed:

(1) The author's warning about Israel becoming more isolated.

Granted, many of Israel's actiions are unpopular ( Blowing up Iraq's
reactor!). However, the evidence is that Israel is becoming more integrated:

- Large number of tourists.
- Recent ties with Poland/Russia/Ukraine
- EL AL flights now to China, etc..
- An increasing amount of trade with Europe, Canada, probably U.S.A.. etc..

Between popularity and security, Israel goes with security ( Doesn't
mean that I support the deportations).
Other countries do the same thing. Will you grant me that Canada is not
a violent country? However, civil rights in the entire country were suspended
in 1970 cuz' of terrorist threats in Quebec. 


(2) The point about upcoming concentrations camps and expulsions and loss of freedom of speech in the
future when Sharon, Rafu or somebody run the show.   

Evidence? These guys don't run any party, let alone the show.

Concentration Camps? Read up on what they really were in WWII before
taking such statements seriously.

Expulsions? They were supposed to have taken place in 1991 during the Gulf
War when the world was preoccupied with the war. Israel, according to
the gang, was supposed to expel Palestinians by the thousands. The only
expulsions which ** actually ** took place were 

- Yemenities by Saudi Arabia
- Palestinians by Kuwait.

Nobody cared much about these, though, because Israel didn't do it. 

So much for the mass expulsions theory.


(3 Israel being an embarrassment to Jews

Evidence? What percentage of Jews are embarrassed by Israel?
Many Jews don't like a specific gov't or policies. This does not mean
that they are embarrassed by Israel.

Some Jews are embarrassed by Israel like some Americans I met are embarrassed
by the U.S. "C'est la vie" as they say in Quebec.


(4) Israel becoming more right-wing

That's why Israel dumped Shamir for Rabin.


Ishay
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Life As A Deportee
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 00:06:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.203815.22592@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:


>The following are exerpts from an article entitled "Taking a stand in no
>man's land" in the Jan. 4, 1993 issue of the Christian Science Monitor:

[...]

>"The Israelis claim we represent the first and second ranks of the Hamas
>leadership, but this is simply not true," says Abdullah al-Zogg from
>Gaza. "Their goal was to expel the educated Muslim classes, to behead
>our community. Look how many imams and ulema are among us."
>
>....100 of the 415 expelled are Islamic clerics of one sort or another.

Nice Holy People, just like the Ayatollah Khomeini.  Couldn't hurt a
fly.  Do you think that we've forgotten already?  Even some of the
radical Arab states are terrified of these "Nice Holy People".
Sheesh.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A good new book on Israel
Keywords: book
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:47:17 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Originator: michaelp@otertjern.ifi.uio.no


In article <cubsfan.726250357@camelot>, cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
> If anyone wants to read a good book on the current state of
> Israel (since the elections last summer), I recommend
> Yossi Melman's _The New Israelis_
> (Carol Publishing Company, ISBN 1-55972-129-4)
> 
> This book is about as even handed as they come, not afraid to
> criticize (or praise) Israel when criticism or praise is due.
> The book deals with many subjects, including the rise of
> religious fundamentalism in Israel, Zionism, and Israel's
> relations with the Palestinians.
> 
> 
> --
> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu
> 
> "One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee


thanks for the info!
Do you happe to know weather a hebrew edition exists, and whats the best way to 
purchase it living in europe?
MIchael