From: Rannou@info.polymtl.ca (Patrick Rannou)
Subject: Re: Multi-Class Hit Points
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Canada
	<RANNOU.92Aug22032909@zuse.info.polymtl.ca>
	<1992Aug24.141916.6211@iscsvax.uni.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:36:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.141916.6211@iscsvax.uni.edu> boelter3945@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:


   In article <RANNOU.92Aug22032909@zuse.info.polymtl.ca>, Rannou@info.polymtl.ca
     (Patrick Rannou) writes:
   > 
   > A party CAPTUREs a level draining undead, and controls it to drop one PC a
   > level, heal him, drop him another levle, heal, etc..
   [...section deleted...]
   > but then you go up a level (using priestly high-power magic and mega dodles
   > cash).

      Just curious, but what Priest are you getting to perform this for you?  Most
   priests in my world (my opinion, no flames please!) would not even consider
   using a Restoration on that character, if they knew the situation (an undead in
   my town?? Where?! *pulls out holy symbol*).  I know, it would depend on the
   diety, but still, the diety may not even grant that spell to the priest.

Uh, that was only a theoretical situation of how a munchkin could TRY to
profit from a min/maxing loophole. There is NO way I'd let the player getw
away with it. But say, a 12th level fighter rolled 1,1,2,3,1 for his last 5
level. Pretty odwn on luck, he? Well, the party meets an undead which
drains level. Tell me, why should the player fdeel happy of being drained
of these 5 levels in order to "save" the other PCs from drain-harm AND top
it off with a cherry on top of the sundae: the guy didn't lose too much hit
points, and whenever he gets restoration, he'll get to roll 5D10 for his
hit points! Duh. That's what I was trying to show with that "ludicrous"
example. I'm trying to make the "min/maxing" of hit points *OUT* of the
picture in the answer to the question: should we fear undead?

I think I've succeeded pretty good.

Another thing about hit points: Don't you think it's too harsh to let a
fighter have a "1" on his hit points? I think it's too nasty, so I've mde a
house rule saying the miminum number of hit points a HD gives:

           First Level       Other Levels Before Name Level
Fighter        6                       4
Priest         5                       3
Thief          4                       3
Mage           3                       2
Monster        3                       2
Half or 0 HD   2                       -

Also, I give HALF the constitution bonus (rounded down) to HP for levels
after name level. this means that a fighter with 18 CON gets +5 HP/level
in his higher levels... and hepls me make demi-gods which have many HP...
Giant's also nenefit from it greatly, since they have very high consts...


What do you think about these two ideas? Too unbalancing?



   > So I still let the PC KEEP his XPs. In fact, the beast doesn't
   > drain ANY XP at all! It just make the PC *operates* at a LOWER level than
   > ordinary.

      Sounds a lot like how it is run in Moria games, a character has both a
   Current xp, and a Max xp.  Your abilities are determined on your current xp,
   which most of the time is equal to the max xp, except when drained. :-)


Good analogy, but I don't really like it. A drain of 10,000 XPs can make a
hell of a difference wether you are 2nd of 10th level... That's why I use
level draining, which means you have a current-level and a max level, the
current-level is always max-level (determined by XPs, which never changes
by draining) minus total-level-drained.

Idea: Fractionnal-level-draining. Example: A monster drains only HALF a level,
      so after 1 drains the current level is one less,  after three drains
      it is two less, etc...(the effective-level is always the
      current-level rounded down).
Idea #2: Fractionnal-Max-level: Based on how much XPs and training a PC
      has, he could be, say, level 5 and a half. This means he still
      operates like a 5th level guy, but it would take him two half-level
      drains before losing a level of effectiveness. Currently is use only
      half levels.

What do you think about these ideas? Good, pathethic?



   > Also, since I assume that when you fight and are hit, the hit points you
   > lose from damage are the ones from your MOST RECENTLY ACQUIRED LEVELS, the
   > drain doesn't make the PC suffer ADDITIONNAL damage. Being drained is bad
   > enough already as it is without adding that extra nastiness!

      Exactly what I do.  Say an undead drains one level and does 4hp damage, and
   the current level lost had a 6 rolled for hp, then just those 6 are lost (4 for
   the damage, plus the 2 extra to completely lose the level).

That's assuming you eneter the fight at full hit points. If not, then you
lose only the hit points from the physical damage anyway...


   > I mean, take a typical draining monster that has 4 attacks a round and
   > drain a level on any hit

      Um, this is hypothetical, right?  What undead is there that attacks 4 times
   a round and drains with each attack? *yipe! run away! run away!*

					   John "Nightwind" Boelter
Huh, I know about those who attack three times per round. Claw claw bite.
Yikes.. I had my party meet a SINGLE ghoul once. I did the mistake of
making it paralyse on ANY attack, claw claw bite, one PC paralysed. Round one:
claw claw bite, another PC paralysed; round two... After round 3 only one
PC was still left standing (the ghoul atttacked by surprise and won the
initiative the first round). Too damn killer, I tell you.

The thing I hate with undeads is this:

When the party is too low level, they're gonna be creamed anyway, even when
it's 4 against one. When the party get's higher level, you get this:

Either the cleric do his turning, end of story.
Or he misses, end of PCs.
(assuming say 8 ghouls agaisnt a party of 6th level PCs)

I fear paralysing undeads more than level draining ones, too.
Level draining either is minor, and you kick the undeads butt pretty fast
but you're sure to lose a few levels, or the fight is hard and the more
level you lose the harder it is, and you win just barely after having
dropped nearly ALLL your levels.

That's why I introduced ANOTHER idea: partial-level-permanent-loss.

What this means is that if an undead drains you for 1 level, you lose one
level but only half a level is "permanently" lost until special healing
takes place (restoration, etc). The other one comes back naturally, at a
rate of half a level per day, twice as fast per day of full rest. Natural
and magical healing is at half effect during this period.

This means that if a fighter of level 6 fights an undead who drains him
down to level 2, the fighter will be 4th level after two full days of rest,
or 4 days anyway. Note that when a level is regained, only the maximum hit
points change, not the current hit points.


What do you think? Too complex? Pure Genius? Crackpot?




Pat.









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| Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
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