HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:21:46 GMT

In article <1ita6dINN3pu@uwm.edu> bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>You've said the clipboard is inadequate several times now.  Why don't
>you tell me exactly where the clipboard is "lacking"?  I'm curious.
>From the way you're saying what you are, you sound ignorant to "the
>way things are", rather than "the way things were".

   For one, there is no standard means of getting graphics or text or
whatever into the clipboard.  Every program has a different way of doing
it, and none are the same.  That is, if they support the clipboard at
all.  Very few applications do support the clipboard.

   Second, with many applications that do support the clipboard, the 
clipboard support is broken.  I remember once trying to cut text with a
'snap' utility, send it to the clipboard, and paste it into a 'Scribble!'
document.  The text would always come out as garbage in 'Scribble!'.
Always.  I never once got the clipboard support in 'Scribble!' to work.

   The end result of all of this is that the clipboard is almost totally
useless.  Whenever I want to exchange data between to applications using
the clipboard, either one of the applications does not support the 
clipboard at all, or the clipboard support in one of them is broken.  Just
about the only way to do it is with a 'snap' utility, and when you resort
to a utility like this it is far easier to just save the images to disk
and load them again with the other application.

   I was mentioning to someone once about how one of the 'snap' utilities
supports the clipboard, and he remarked that snapping to the clipboard was
the same as snapping to a black hole as far as he is concerned.  He is
right.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:11:15 GMT

Andreas Stenmark (c92andst@odalix.ida.liu.se) wrote:
> lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad) writes:
> 
> >Marc N. Barrett (barrett@iastate.edu) wrote:
> 
> >>    That's a very good idea.  I don't really care who Commodore has develop the
> >> package, as long as the package is done well.  And you are right that it is
> >> better for Commodore to subcontract the writing of the software to a third-
> >> party than to do it themselves.  I think it can be argued that one of the 
> >> reasons why the first incarnation of AmigaVision was halfway good was because
> >> it was done by a third-party and not by Commodore.
> 
> >Yes. It does not matter what Commodore does, it sucks anyways.
> >Commodore can't do anything right, their programmers suck suck suck. I
> >just wish Commodore would had let thrid party to develope Amiga 3000
> >and 4000 for them.
> 
> That's probably more a marketing question. The tech guys at C= are
> probably not worse than the ones at Apple or IBM.
> 
> >Also the operating system should have done by some
> >third party - the best choise would have been Apple, heck they should
> >have bought the right to use Mac's OS in Amiga's! And Microsoft Basic
> >should be put back in all Amiga packages.
> 
> Microsoft Basic for the Amiga is not very good. Despite the fact that
> it doesn't follow the simple rules of programming under AmigaDOS, it's
> very slow. It's probably easy to write a faster Basic interpreter in
> Lisp. MS claims that the AmigaBasic is written in 68k asm.
> 
> (The fact that they (MS) embarassed themselves so much with AmigaBasic
> is probably one reason that they won't develop programs for AmigaDOS
> today. They simply can't.)
> 
> And - using Mac OS in Amiga would not be an improvement.

Next time, please read to whom I answer - I definately do not
seriously thinnk that Mac OS would be an improvement or that MS Basic
should be included in all Amiga packages and so on. I just wanted to
agree with MB.

-- 
Jarkko Lindblad         | sleep my friend and you will see
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi | that dream is my reality
------------------------| they keep me locked up in this cage
          - MetallicA - | can't they see it's why my brain say rage
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:15:59 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Peter /\/\odin (e91petmo@odalix.ida.liu.se) wrote:
:
: Even with a hard drive, it's nice to be able to do so. When it just won't
: work (just suppose it won't!), it's nice to be able to actually do something.
: Er.... not that I would like it, being used to a HD. Why IS OS/2 / Windows
: so damn HUGE, anyway?
:

Because they have so damn MUCH functionality!
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:09:54 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Joe O'Hara - Product Assurance (joe@cbmvax.commodore.com) wrote:
:
: >Nonsense.  If you take two systems with *equal RAM*, running the same
: >set of applications, and one system has VM, the only "performance" hit
: >in that system is the MMU overhead, which is negligible.
:
: I agree. In this scenario, there is obviously enough memory to hold the
: active set of applications, so no swapping should occur (unless the *system*
: overhead, i.e. the OS size, creates a situation where swapping is necessary).
:
: >: >VM does not impede anything.  In fact, it can only show improved
: >: >performance
: >: >over a non-VM system with the same amount of RAM.
:
: This is an interesting statement, Jerry. I'd like to know the basis for it,
: given that the VM system adds MMU overhead, slight though it might be.
:

Because if you push the non-VM system just beyond the RAM limit, it will
simply refuse, but the VM system will continue, with a bit of disk access.
Any kind of performance is better performance than NO performance.  The
people who think that VM is not useful say things like, "If you don't have
enough space, buy more RAM".  Well, it's not as simple as that.  I sometimes
find myself running several large applications, filling up most of my RAM,
when suddenly I need to pop up a calculator or paint program in order to
insert a number of a picture into one of those applications.  I can't afford
to worry about there not being enough RAM to occasionally run these
accessories, yet I also can't afford to double my RAM for them.  Even if the
system swaps a bit when I run them, it's still faster than if I had to shut
something else down first.

:
:   Joe O'Hara                ||      Disclaimer: I didn't say that!
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: bill@west.msi.com (Bill Poitras)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Reply-To: bill@west.msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:00:30 GMT

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
:   More Amigas are used to accomplish "real" work Jerry, more than you're
: able to admit to yourself.  Of course, it's rather nice to take a recreational
: diversion with a game every now and then, which is how the A500 here (which is
: normally setup as a debugging console) is for.

More Amigas are used to accomplish "real" work than what?  PCs? Macs?
Sega Genesis?  Super Nintendo Entertainment System?  I concede on the
last two, but not on the first two.

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@west.msi.com       |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: kevint@sad.hp.com (Kevin Taddeucci)
Subject: Re: Does reading this group make you depressed? The story of a victim.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:18:21 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Marc N. Barrett (barrett@iastate.edu) wrote:
> 
>    Where do I buy them?  I can't exactly go down to the local WaldenBooks and
> buy a European Amiga magazine.  How do I go about getting one of these 
> magazines from deep in the heart of the U.S.?

Try calling Creative Computers. When I was there they had a bunch of Euro 
Mags. I'm sure they would be happy to sell you an issue or two.

       ----------------------------- ------------------------------------
      | Kevin J. Taddeucci          | e-mail: kevint@hpsad.sad.hp.com    |
      | Hewlett Packard Firmware QA | HPDesk: Kevin TADDEUCCI /HP5300/A0 |
      | Telnet: 794-4192            | HP Mailstop: 2LR-N                 | 
       ----------------------------- ------------------------------------
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:37:58 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <a3Xu03TVc72t00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> alan@xserver.uts.amdahl.com (Alan Bomberger) writes:
>I am glad someone mentioned the clipboard.  The Mac has
>a "Put this stuff on the clipboard" and a "get stuff from
>the clipboard".  

Pardon me, but STOP: The Amiga has this also and has had it since day one!
The OS supports it. We can argue for long why apps do use it so rarely
(but that's getting better all the time), but you cannot deny that it's
there.

>If the Amiga had supplied these simple
>intuitive interfaces, I would have used it instead of
>an application internal clipboard.  

It had. There was actually no reason for applications to run their own
clipboard implementations. (BTW: Are we talking about AmigaBASIC? :-)

>Gad, I sound more and more like a Mac supporter.  I spend
>time on the Mac advocacy group bashing  myths about the
>Amiga.  

I hope you have your facts there more correct than this time...

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!
From: jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov (Jack Radigan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 11 Jan 1993 12:04:17 -0500
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Pomona, NJ
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: faatcrl.faa.gov

andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:

>Check your disk labels;  mine say 'Graphical Environment'.  Check
>the Microsoft manual;  mine say 'graphical environment'.   (I didn't
>keep the box, so I can't look there)

  The 3.0 release called itself an environment, the 3.1 manuals now proclaim
it to be an operating system...

  It's still bogus.

  -jack-
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: The Mac is not ideal (was Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths)
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:52:25 GMT

In <048f037Pc8Sc00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> alan@xserver.uts.amdahl.com (Alan Bomberger) writes:
>mean that the Amiga OS could not use a seriously better paper interface!

especially for all those people how can't afford a postscript printer.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:26:59 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
:
:   Anyone who's had the pleasure of using OS/2 on a machine with 4Meg of
: ram (and again with 8Meg or more) knows full well how much of a performance
: penalty VM is.
:

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Don't you relize that the
minimal-RAM machine wouldn't run AT ALL without VM?

Blaming VM for the bad performance of a minimal-RAM machine is like blaming
the bulletproof vest for the bruise you get when you get shot while wearing
one.

:   -jack-
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:27:55 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Skip Sauls (skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu) wrote:
:
: How long have they had a popular widely available multitasking OS for the
: Intel architecture?
:

Well, UNIX was available in 1984, and OS/2 in 1987...

:
: As for being ripped off, ask the software engineers
: who worked on OS/2 about the Amigas in their labs...
:

I've read two of their books, and there was no mention of the Amiga...

:
: No, but you can get an A1200 for around $600 that is comparable to 486sx
: SVGA systems for twice the price.
:

If you think a 1200 is as fast or powerful as a 486sx, you are sadly mistaken.

:
: Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 12 Jan 1993 03:30:26 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <73379@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>You've been reading too much Motorola PR.  At least the 486 contains
>>a complete implementation of the FPU and MMU; the same cannot be said of
>>the '040.  What an upgrade.

Whoa, just saw that.  To attribute it correctly, it's probably
something Jerry said.

The 040 is NOT NOT NOT "incomplete", as you assume.  If you knew a
little more about what you talk about, you'd know that it's just a lot
"thinner" in functions than the 68851 (the mmu for the 020, which had
a _TON_ of MMU functions) and the 030 (which had less than the 020's
but was still extremely robust).  They've gotten the 040's MMU down to
the skeleton set, which is not bad--this lets them optimize it much
better than they could have if they had kept 030 compatibility.  They
have also said that the 060 will have the same set of instructions,
so...

Please attempt to be more truthful.

(sorry to interrupt, Tom.)

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: fihsu@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 11:20:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.043322.7254@src4src.linet.org> scottw@src4src.linet.org (Scott Weintraub) writes:
>First off, I want to say that about a week ago, I ordered my Gateway after
>being a loyal Amiga advocate for many years.  Guys, they've caught up.  A
>few months ago, we all agreed that HAM didn't cut it anymore and were pretty
>excited about the AGA chipset which I can now say *STILL* doesn't cut it.
>
[stuff deleted]
>and I doubt is fictional.  The Amiga comes with the fabulous new AGA chipset.
>It can do 256k colors out of a 24-bit palette in 640 x 480.  It can do those
>same colors in 800 x 600 and the ever-so-awkward 1280 x 400 but in 15KHz mode.
>The increased bandwith on the A4000 enables it approach 30fps in 640 x 480.
>The 4000 has 7 slots when everything's over and the Gateway has 9.  8 being
>ISA an one local bus.  Both are desktops but for $100, you can upgrade

Yes, don't forget to note that the 7 slots in the A4000 are 32-bit (which
is vaugely comparable to EISA). 8 of those 9 slots in the Gateway are as you
said ISA, 16-bit.

>the Gateway to a tower case.  The A4000 comes with a 101-key keyboard which
>I find slightly annoying and the Gateway has a 124-key AnyKey keyboard
>which happens to be a joy to use.  Both include mice which are both medicore.
>The Gateway comes with MS-DOS and Windows and of course the A4000 comes with
>WB 3.0.  Gateway then enables you to choose from a small assortment of   
>software.  I choose Paradox 4.0 (considered the best piece of database
>software) and Borland C++ 3.1 (considered by many the best C compiler).
>Gateway's cache is small.  It's only 64k but for a mere $45 you can jack that

Ok, but the A4000 comes with one or two software packages itself. I forget what
they are, but you fail to mention them for some reason.

[more stuff deleted]
>
>Oh yes.  If you want tech support, Gateway's tech support hotline is open
>weekdays from 6AM to midnight EST and on Saturday from 8AM to 5PM.  I can't
>say the same for CBM who would rather our problems to be in the hands of 
>it's dealers but sometimes offers help.

C= advertises that they have a 24-hour hotline.
Yes, the Gateway or practically any other PC clone will give you more memory
and a bigger harddrive for less money. They also offer stuff like 30-day
trial period, two year warranties.. but that's a result of cutthroat
competition. Imagine if IBM was the sole maker of PCs, and then see if you
think they'd be selling PCs with price/performance comparable to Gateway.

Do you consider Apple Macs to have alot of catching up to do? Their sales
are excellent yet they're the worst of all when it comes to prices.

>
>-- 
>     /// AMIGA:            * Scott Weintraub - Long Island, NY     *   In
>    ///  the computer for  * e-mail: scottw@src4src.linet.org      *DreAms i
>\\\///   the blah blah     *                                       *  WalK
> \\X/    blah blah blah    * Letterman is the king of latenight!!! *WiTh yOu

Francis

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: clone prices & doom & gloom
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:12:04 GMT

In article <1id22lINNj11@mozz.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>'>Whoa!  Imagine that!  A 486 at 33MHz is faster than a 68000 at 7MHz!  Who
>'>would ever guess?  Maybe that explains why my A4000/040 running Workbench
>'>3.0 at 704x468x256 is faster than a 286-8 running Windows in 640x350x16...
>
>   Hey, Skip, read the other guys statement.  He was the one going around
>   claiming a stock A500 was faster then a 486/50.  I was just commenting that
>   that was certainly not the case from my experience, having owned both.
>   Jeez.

Lighten up a bit.  Can't you see how silly my own statement is?  There is
this little thing called sarcasm that some folks enjoy...

>'>>  up the driver to 256 colors its still fast.  I am using the outdated 
>'>>  Diamond Speedstar Plus card also.  For the same money today, you can get
>'>>  a Diamond Speedstar 24X which provides much faster Windows support, along
>'>>  with true color. 
>'>
>'>And for the same money as the outdated A500, you can get an A1200 which 
>'>provides similar capabilities to Amiga owners...
>	
>   Really?  You can get an A1200 for the same price as an A500?  Not
>   around here. 

Sure, an A1200 goes for around $600 and includes 2M Chip RAM, 68020,
IDE interface, AGA chipset, AmigaDOS 3.0, PCMCIA slot, etc.  An A500
can be had for as little as $300, if you can find one for sale, but
you give up all of the features listed above.  You can add accelerators,
2M boards, HD controllers, etc., but the AGA chipset is for all practical
purposes impossible to add.

>							Greg Greene
>                                                        ggg@kepler.unh.edu

Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Re: CBM does it again... 23 watt p.s. for A1200?!?
Keywords: gimme a break
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 07:18:19 GMT

In article <C0KLo3.EC4@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>   First, the A1200 and A600 power supplies should be a bit larger than the
>ones used with the A500 for the simple reason that the A1200 and A600 are
>designed to use an internal HD and the A500 wasn't.  Extta power is obviously

Utter crap! (everybody else says it... :)

The 500 has adequate power for a HD and controler hanging off the bus 
expansion on the side.  As a matter of fact, I know of no one who uses
an external PS for the 1st hard drive on a 500.

>needed to accomodate the HD.  Next, consider any extra power needed by the
>underside expansion port.  In the A1200 especially, cards in the underside
>expansion port will very likely use more power than cards in the underside port
>of the A500.  

Maybe, it's subjective though.  Only major hacks would draw too much power,
legitimate expansion devices that require more power would come with their
own power supplies (eg. modems, tape drives, removable media, . . .
printers :).

>Finally, consider any extra power to accomodate PCMCIA
>peripherals, which are even less likely to have their own power supply than
>peripherals plugged into the A500's side expansion port.

As I stated before, properly engineered products will provide power needed
in some way, either by supplying power supplies, or by using low power
consumption tech.

[interesting conclusion]

Twice the power, eh?  Would any C= engineer like to give the power
comsumption of the basic 1200 and 600 systems?

Quick survey: how many A500 owners have had the need for extra wattage?
(Yours has already been counted, Marc.)

>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu

--Jason Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy