HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Computer Science in Israel Ignored
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:59:18 GMT

In article <28AUG199209590256@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>"Communications of the ACM" (CACM) is a monthly publication of the
>Association for Computing Machinery, a computer science professional
>society.  The August 1992 issue of CACM includes an article in the
>"International Perspectives" department by Sy Goodman and Jerrold Green
>entitled "Computing in the Middle East".  Goodman is a professor of MIS at
>University of Arizona, and Green is Director of the Center for Middle
>Eastern Studies at the U of A.
>
>Guess which country is hardly mentioned?  Israel, the computer science
>regional super-power.  "Snapshots" (individual segments) are taken of
>Egypt, Iran, Jordan, and Syria, but there is scant attention paid to Israel.
>In fact, Israel is *only* mentioned only in these three sentences (out of a
>4 page article):
>


I received the following message from Sy Goodman who is in charge of the CACM
column. which caused the fuss.  Hope this information helps.

There should be someone out there knowledgable enough and a good enough
writer to come up with an appropriate article.

Hillel Markowitz    H_Markowitz\@att.com

>From:    GOODMAN\@MISVAX.MIS.ARIZONA.EDU
>Message-Id: <920828195658.20a11887\@MISVAX.MIS.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Ignoring Israel
>
>Dear Mr. Markowitz:
>
>Thank you for your offer to post my reply on the listserv that has
>been generating a stream of irate messages in my direction. I'm beginning
>to feel like some congressman who voted to send Pershing II missiles to
>Iraq. 
>
>I would appreciate it if you posted the following:
>
>
>Our coverage was clearly focused on the Arab countries. "International
>Perspectives" is limited to about 2500-3000 words per essay, and to only 3-4
>essays per year. There is a big world out there for us to cover, and these
>constraints are severe. We didn't think we could do justice to Israel and
>Turkey in the roughly 300-400 words we might have devoted to them in the
>August issue. We gave priority to the Arab countries at this time because so
>little has been written about IT in those countries (and we were not even 
>able to cover all the Arab states).
>
>I am well aware of Israeli activities in computing, and am interested in
>finding an Israeli to write an appropriate guest column. At one time, I 
>thought I had a good candidate, but he produced a weak draft and seems to
>have pooped out on the revision. We hope to be able to give IT in Israel
>its due in a future issue. 
>
>Sy Goodman
>
>p.s. I did get a phone call from one Israeli who appreciated being informed
>(even with the 3000 word cap) about IT in the rest of the region.
>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Mac David
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:37:13 GMT

In article <92241.205001EXG106@psuvm.psu.edu> EXG106@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>I have tasted a Mac David's hamburger, and I must agree with you whole-heartedl
>y.  Soggy bun, microscopic meat, dry......
 But they do offer you techina in a squeeze bottle as a condiment.
 Or was it Thousand Islands dressing?
From: GRIMES_S@Eisner.DECUS.Org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Somalia crisis I
Date: 31 Aug 92 02:51:28 GMT
Reply-To: <GRIMES_S@Eisner.DECUS.Org>
Organization: Nysernet
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org

Two notes will follow this that were downloaded from PeaceNet on
how to get involved in Somali famine relief.  The notes are on 
organizations providing aid in Somalia -- the Internationl Committee
of the Red Cross is doing an excellent job and is accepting donations
through the American Red Cross -- and on places you can send advocacy
letters.  My information source is Dorothy Morse, who can be reached
at dmorse@igc.org.  Please get involved in what has been called the
greatest humanitarian problem since the massive starvation and civil
war in Biafra.

It would be great to discuss how Jewish organizations -- synagogues,
campus, whatever -- could get involved in assisting Somalia.  Money
and advocacy letters to our government and international organizations
can really help.

Seth Grimes, jcipp@mcimail.com
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (S. H. Schwartz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Automated hate Calls in Minnesota
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:06:12 GMT
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish,comp.dcom.telecom
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY

From plains!person@uunet.UU.NET (Brett G Person)
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom
Subject: Automated hate Calls in Minnesota
Date: 25 Aug 92 01:41:24 GMT

I was watching the lcoal news last night and saw a strange news report
from Minneapolis.

   Apparently, people there I getting alls from a new kind of
telemarketer slime encourageing them to hate minorites, Jews,etc.  It
sounded like the phone calls were comming from an automated dialer
that plays a tape encouraging violence. The State Attourney General's
office says that this doesn't violate any laws.

Any comments? Have any of you gotten phome calls like this?


Brett Person   Guest Account  North Dakota State University
person@plains.nodak.edu || person@plains.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: llexier@nyx.cs.du.edu (Lyle Lexier)
Subject: just a test
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 18:21:24 GMT


ISRAEL SHALL LIVE FOREVER!
 
Lyle
s

--
*************************************************************************
*  Lyle Lexier                      |   llexier@nyx.cs.du.edu           *
*                                   |                                   *
*************************************************************************
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Thursday, 27 Aug 1992 07:52:29 EDT
From: <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Term Galut

In article <9208211532.AA17491@ptms_dev.sbi.com>, gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User
- Don Gertler) says:
>
>MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
>        Perhaps  the term  "reish  galuta" (the  head of  the
>        galut) used for the "nassi" (president?) of the Jews in Babel might be
>        better.
>
>I realize that we (all) pronounce it "reish galuta" or "reish galusa"
>when we learn, but in proper Aramiac, shouldn't it be "reish galvata,"
>as we usually pronounce it in Yekum Purkan on Shabbat.
>
>-Don Gertler

My teacher Rabbi Jakob Petuchowski z"l used to pronounce it "Reish
Galwatha."

Of course, he was a yekke and very fond of "scientific" prononciation.

Rabbi Charles Arian
CARIAN@american.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur and Tu b'Av
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 13:32:36 GMT

In article <BtyzxA.409@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep2.171202.12415@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
|> >In article <199209021208.AA11062@das.wang.com>, MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
|> >|> Another  possible explanation  why Yom  Kippur had  all the  described
|> >|> activities, could be,  (and this is surely unacceptable  to anyone who
|> >|> believes that the Oral Law is Sinaic), that the festive atmosphere was
|> >|> in times before the second Temple  was destroyed.  All the fasting and
|> >|> grimness as  is customary  now among the  observant, is  a post-Temple
|> >|> affair,  when  Rabbi  Yohannan  ben  Zakai and  all  those  after  him
|> >|> "invented" what became  known as the "Oral Law" to  give it authority.
|> 
|>>Even for one who doesn't believe in the Oral Law, this is absurd.  The written
|> >Torah says several times that we are required to "afflict our souls" (eenuy)
|> >on YK.  Granted, the interpretation of that term to mean fasting per se is
|> >part of the Oral Law, but clearly it is a term associated with grimness
|> >and not with festivity and rejoicing.
|> 
|> It seems clear from the Talmudic writings about Yom Kippur that, in the days
|> of the Temple, there was joy and gladness after the High Priest came out of
|> the Holy of Holies.  That there was dancing in the streets, and betrothals
|> were announced, is also in these old writings.  
|> 
|> It seems from these accounts, which seem to be reasonably accurate historical
|> statements, that Yom Kippur was not grim.  The prophets also do not stress
|> that "afflicting our souls" means suffering; indeed, they indicate that 
|> suffering is not the purpose, and that the results of the fasting are what
|> count.   "Is this not the fast that I have chosen?"  This is followed with
|> what should happen the rest of the year.  We still say, "Have an easy fast." 
|> Also, this is the "white fast," jewelry is completely appropriate.

I don't really disagree with anything Herman wrote here.  My problem was with
Michael's statement that the "fasting and grimness" on YK was post-Temple
rather than biblical.  It is clear to me that the Temple-era YK did have
both grim and festive aspects, since the requirement to fast is biblical.  

This holds true even today.  We recite the blessing of "shehechiyanu" because 
YK is a Yom Tov.  We wear white because we are to feel akin to angels on that
day.  I wouldn't refer to Yom Kippur as a sad day.  Solemn, not sad.
---
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Another Wedding
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:19:55 GMT
Reply-To: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM
Distribution: world
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin

In article 3519@porthos.cc.bellcore.com, er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
<In article <l9q2ikINNrbt@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM<, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
<|< In article <BtLpzG.127@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca< aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
<|< <<Seen on the programme at the wedding of Jonathan Rosner and Hindee Alpert
<|< <<in Lawrence, NY last week:
<|< <<
<|< <<			The Bride's Available Sister
<|< <<				Ariella Alpert
<|< <<
<|< <<Now that is what I call market-directed advertising!
<|< <<
<|< 
<|< Before my wedding several years ago, I threatened my relatives with
<|< death and destruction if one of them even hinted "So when are we going
<|< to dance at YOUR wedding?" to my twin brother!
<
<Which leads to at least three questions:
<
<1) How many of your relatives were you forced to kill or destroy?
<

None- they all took the threat seriously!

<
<2) DID your brother eventually get married?
<

Nope - he's a charming 37-year-old guy living in LA, if anyone knows 
of a good match.

<
<3) If not, have I got a match for him!  Her name is Ariella Alpert, and...
<

Not for MY brother - I heard she's stooped so low as to advertise  ;->


********************************************************************************
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen)
Subject: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women
Reply-To: allen@ssc.gov
Organization: SSC Laboratory, Dallas, TX
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:45:42 GMT


The whole topic of woman in Judaism is fascinating and non-trivial.
There are a lot of misconceptions about what is the traditional view.
Note that from the fact that Rashi brings down that Israel deserved
redemption from Egypt through the merit of the women, it is patently
false to make that blanket statement that traditional Judaism put
women down.  For more information, the book "To Be a Jewish Woman", by
Lisa Aiken, Ph.D, pub. by Ahronson (sp?).
--
===================================================
But those who toiled knew nothing of the dreams of 
        Those Who Planned;                         
And the minds who planned the Tower of Babel       
        Cared nothing for the workers who built it.

	-Metropolis
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Should a Jew settle in Israel? (II)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 17:47:20 +0300

In: <57250@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) discusses some problems:

>If every Jew settled in Israel, even kicking out all the goyim in
>Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank would not be adequate.  The limits
>are quite real, and we cannot count on manna.

These are interesting problems brought up by Herman.  But the question
was not about *every* Jew, just "Should *a* Jew settle in Israel".  So
let us talk about  *a* Jew.  To make it easier a  specific one, let us
say one called  Herman Rubin.  So the question is  now "Should Hermman
Rubin settle in Israel?" I think to solve this specific problem we can
leave Gaza to the Palestinian and  still find some room.  It will also
be possible to eat some more interesting food, than manna every day...

Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Another Wedding
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 17:38:13 GMT

In article <l9q2ikINNrbt@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb) writes:
|> In article <BtLpzG.127@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
|> >>Seen on the programme at the wedding of Jonathan Rosner and Hindee Alpert
|> >>in Lawrence, NY last week:
|> >>
|> >>			The Bride's Available Sister
|> >>				Ariella Alpert
|> >>
|> >>Now that is what I call market-directed advertising!
|> >>
|> 
|> Before my wedding several years ago, I threatened my relatives with
|> death and destruction if one of them even hinted "So when are we going
|> to dance at YOUR wedding?" to my twin brother!

Which leads to at least three questions:

1) How many of your relatives were you forced to kill or destroy?

2) DID your brother eventually get married?

3) If not, have I got a match for him!  Her name is Ariella Alpert, and...
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Should a Jew settle in Israel?
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 17:45:56 +0300

In: <1992Aug17.211651.16598@cbnews.cb.att.com>
ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) asks:

>In article <1992Aug17.114829.13516@discus.technion.ac.il> silvrbrg@discus.tech
>>The question is not whether Jews should live in Israel, rather why should
>>a Jew live outside of Israel. According to Rambam, living in Israel is a
>>postive commandment for which there are only three exceptions: finding a
>>wife, to study with an outstanding rabbi, or for short-term business needs.
>
>And, as Rambam was not living in Israel at the time, the fourth reason?

May I suggest a few possible answers:

1.   As polygamy  was allowed,  the RAMBAM  was still  looking for  an
additional perfect wife.

2.   As he was every day with Maimonides, this  could be considered as
"to  study   with  an  outstanding   Rabbi",  even  if  some   of  his
contemporaries did not think so highly of that Rabbi.

3.   He had thought that this business  of writing up all  the laws of
the Torah would be  a short-term affair, but it dragged  on and on and
on.

If someone would  like some even more serious reasons  than the above,
one might consider that living in Eretz Yisrael was a dangerous affair
at that  time, and thus  the consideration of Pikuah  Nefesh (avoiding
life  threatening  conditions)  might  have  played  a  role  in  that
decision.  The RAMBAM was a fugitive  from his native Cordoba, and had
to leave  some other places  before he settled  in Cairo, he  may thus
have judged living in Israel as being specially dangerous.

Lest anyone is misinformed by present  day media reports, may I hasten
to add that at present, living in Israel is not dangerous, compared to
most other places in this world.

>Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jec@zurich.ibm.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 07:51:26 GMT
Reply-To: jec@zurich.ibm.com 
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center


As a non-jewish person, I would like to ask the few following (naive ?) questions :

1) What does mean the circumcision ? Is it required to be considered as jewish ?
What about a non-circumcised boy from jewish parents ? Is there an equivalent 
ceremony for girls ? Why don't christian circumcise their boys, since Christus
was circumcised and that even muslims do ?

2) It seems to me that most of the jewish feasts are related to the Hebrew history.
For the christians, most of the feasts are related to the history of Christ. But
as Christ is considered as a divinity for christian, religious feasts are really
religious. On the contrary, I have the impression that jewish feasts are more
the celebration of a common history where god has it's place. Therefore I think it is
easier to be jewish and atheist than christian and atheist for that reason. So,
what is judaism ? Is it more than a religion, is it a way of life, is it a 
philosophy ?

3) What is the talmud ? Is there a good book explaining it to non-specialist
people ?

Thanks.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:48:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <matthew.714883798@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
...
>I consider Poles of jewish extraction to be Poles, period. You, on the
>other hand, refer to them as Jews, albeit polish, and make a big fuss
>about the race difference. So, are you a racist, or just prejudiced?
...

    Sure, Germans of jewish extraction were Germans, Ukranians of
    jewish extraction were Ukranians, etc.  Period.

    There were no jews in Nazi camps, only Poles, Germans, Ukranians...
    Nazi's did not kill any jews, holocaust is a hoax.

    So, Maciek Blasikiewicz, are you a Nazi of polish extraction,
    or just dumb?
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hjb@levi.th.vu.nl (Hendrik Jan Bosman)
Subject: Genealogical question
Summary: What are the Hebrew roots of the Dutch family name 'Spetter'?
Organization: Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam - Faculty Of Theology
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 07:50:24 GMT

 A friend of mine is from a jewish family that, alas, turned catholic
 long ago :-)  His family name is supposedly still jewish, although
 probably heavily 'Dutchized': Spetter. Since my friend has recently
 become interested in his jewish backgrounds, he is wondering what the
 original family name in Hebrew could have been. My knowledge of
 Hebrew (and especially of Hebrew family names in the Netherlands) is
 not sufficient to resolve this question. Would anybody be able to
 help?

 Thanks,

 Hendrik Jan Bosman
 hjb@th.vu.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aplebaum@shum.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Subject: Re: Can of Worms
Organization: Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel
Date: 30 Aug 92 12:49:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.040207.13149@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
|> No, it does NOT make it OK, but what does it have to do with the basic
|> question that I asked?
|> 
|> We are not talking about actual degree of adherence to God's Law to
|> us, which is what this bacon thing implies; it is strictly an issue
|> of whether the Orthodox have the right to force their INTERPRETATION
|> of that Law on those Jews who believe in the EQUALLY LEGITIMATE
|> and EQUALLY VALID (for ALL Jews) Conservative or Reform interpretations.

Who can I decide whether an idea of someone who says he's a jew, is
a legitimate 'interpetation' ? and if he's a GOY (non-jew) can his
ideas be a 'legitimate interpetation' ? even if he, lets say, knows
about jews is from a little booklet he found somewhere ?

-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
/// Hillel P. Applebaum	     |>>    ISRAEL - where all
/// Jerusalem,   Israel      |      jews should live ! 

____  ____  _  ___     _  _  _     ____  ___  _   ____
   |     |   |    |    |  |   |       |     |  |   |  |
|  |     |   | ___|_  __`/    |    |  |     |  |  _|  |
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
From: israel@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert B. Israel)
Subject: Re: Not a Charm?
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:47:51 GMT

In <199209031317.AA19276@das.wang.com> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:

>In: <P09gqB1w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
>murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu  brings:

>>**********************************************************************
>>
>>       L'CHAIM              ISSUE  #   230  PART   1  OF   8
>>**********************************************************************

>Towards the end we read (I only bring that part of L'Chaim):

>>   The mezuza is not a charm or amulet  and should not be considered as
>>one.  Yet it does  offer protection. As  explained in the  Kabbala, the
>>mezuza provides  G- d's  protection from  the time we  leave the  house
>>until the time we return home.

>I wonder  why this  function of the  mezuza does not  make it  what is
>commonly called a  charm or amulet? Where is the  difference? Is it in
>that one believes that it is a charm which invokes God?

>Michael Shimshoni

My shul's Rabbi devoted his Shabbat morning drasha a couple of weeks ago
to the idea that the mezuza provides protection.  Now I know that the 
Shulchan Arukh supports this point of view, but (as he often does)
the Rabbi tried to enlist the Rambam as a supporter as well.  

I looked up what the Rambam says in Mishneh Torah, and it's a very strong 
denunciation of people who make the mezuza into an amulet by including 
extraneous things (such as names of angels).  While he doesn't come right 
out and say that it does NOT provide protection, his theory is that its 
purpose is to remind us not to sin.

When asked about this, the Rabbi asserted that the Rambam talks about mezuza 
somewhere else too (he couldn't remember where), and does support the
"protection" theory.

Can anyone provide a reference to other comments of the Rambam on this subject?
-- 
Robert Israel                            israel@math.ubc.ca
Department of Mathematics             or israel@unixg.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Y4
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish friends - help!
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:23:55 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <9208202257.AA09589@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>Cold liquids that have been held in non-kosher containers
>for more than 24 hours are also unacceptable.

How about bottled soda and paper cups?  It wouldn't even seem strange,
since many families do this anyway.

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.