HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill)
Subject: Re: Moral propagationism
Originator: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:07:38 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1992Sep27.091323.4956@techbook.com>, szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:

|> It happens to all species, but it need not happen to a
|> morality if it can construct a successor species or artifact to
|> match or improve on the human mind.  In the meantime, extinction of 
|> the human species is immoral, because it would exterminate the morality
|> that instructs such a thing.

Just a quicky here.  It has seemed to me that most of the objections
raised against singling out one morality (or a restricted set of moralities)
has really centered around the view that in justifying such a choice
we are reasoning circularly (having to depend upon moral principles to
evaluate the choice we are making).  However, it would appear that
nothing could be much more circular than the above.
-- 
Gary H. Merrill  [Principal Systems Developer, C Compiler Development]
SAS Institute Inc. / SAS Campus Dr. / Cary, NC  27513 / (919) 677-8000
sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm
From: steveth@netcom.com (Steve Thomas)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Obj/Exist
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:21:57 GMT
Organization: VisionAire, San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Oct1.173934.25750@ariel.ec.usf.edu> mccolm@darwin.math.usf.edu. (Gregory McColm) writes:
>
>Hmmm.  I hold in my "hand" a lump of organized subatomic 
>particles and electric charges that I perceive to be a 
>red roundish object and I say that this apple exists.  
>Am I saying that the quarks, leptons, and what-not that 
>make it up exist?  After all, these particles are products 
>of the fevered imaginations of physicists.  Am I saying 
>that the apparent organization of the object (seeds in 
>core, white interior, red skin) exists?  After all, this 
>organization may be partly imposed by my mental processes.
>Am I merely saying that I am not dreaming?  How would I 
>know?

How about a novel thought: when you see an apple in your hand, how about
postulating that: YOU, SEE (with your eyes), a red-roundish object (you've
seen one of these before, you and your friends call it an apple).  Simply
looking at the outside of an apple doesn't tell you anything about quarks
and leptons and apple seeds--it just tells you about the outside look of
the apple (integrating past knowledge about apples might tell you more,
however--but in the immediate context, what you see is what you see--see
Aristotle's dicussion of the bent stick in water...).

There's a false alternative between complete skeptcism and omnipotence--both
are incorrect...

>
>Is "exist" really a definable verb?  Does the number 2 
>exist?  How about transfinite numbers?  This issue does 
>not seem to be as easily resolved as some Objectivists 
>seem to think ...
>

What exactely do you mean by "exist" when you write it here in your post?
I'm not sure I understand your question.  What do you mean by the number 2?
By transfinite numbers?  I'm not sure I know what you're talking about here--
can you elaborate?  (Hint: this is a trap.)

_____
Steve Thomas
steveth@rossinc.com
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Moral propagationism
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:15:36 GMT
Reply-To: pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technologies, Mt. View, California.

In article <1992Sep29.095827.11433@techbook.com>, szabo@techbook.com
(Nick Szabo) writes:
|> In article <183662@pyramid.pyramid.com>
pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi) writes:
|> 
|> >...has not successfully added any synthetic
|> >difference between "moral" and "fit."  How can we tell the difference
|> >between a "real" moral success and a false, temporary non-moral fit?
|> >The one will allegedly survive in virtue of its morality and the other
|> >is on its way out.  How to tell the difference?
|> 
|> We analyze evolution of a morality over time, determine the
|> consequences of that morality for its own propagation, and estimates 
|> the future propagation.

I think that this is a good place to start.  We should go slowly with
terms and things.  So let's start.

What is "a morality"?  Some possibilities: set of thoughts, set of beliefs,
set of behaviors etc.  You get to answer, I'm just prompting ....

How do we "estimate" the "flavor" of a morality?  Can we differentiate
between differing moralities?  How do we "estimate"the amount of a
morality contained?

How do we isolate the "morality" or its subsequent behavior as being that
which "caused" extinction?  Will we have proper "control" groups etc.

To do so, you must isolate and find, A and B, such that A possesses 
the right amount of the moral quality and B does not, and then submit
A and B to some conditions of which A's always survive and propagate 
and B's do not.  If you are having trouble getting this, just substitute
"three legged men" for "morality" in all of the above questions.

"Morality" must be a quality that *any* observer can look at and measure
according to our yardstick.  All observers looking a person must measure
the same kind and amounts of the attributed quantity.  Then you can tell
us "which" of the differing moralities is "more better" and we will see
if indeed it proliferates.

To look first at the proliferating species and then ascertain the morality
leads to "data mining."  In data mining, one either selectively perceives
in order to validate conclusions (i.e. isolate the identified morality as
the reason for survival despited the fact that there may still be a
million other common factors) or one continues to redefine the quality,
in this case morality, so that its definition becomes meaningless.

Remember, the proof of the pudding in science is that you must be able
to predict and replicate.

Paul Collacchi
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Moral propagationism
Date: 26 Sep 1992 23:34:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 27730@klaava.Helsinki.FI, amnell@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Marko Amnell) writes:
>In article <lc9fjeINNr88@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
>(Todd Hoff) writes:
>Well, you did suggest that the choice between 'moral systems' was
>a matter of taste.  I took this to imply that evil acts were evil
>only from the vantage point of some people.
>

You took this correctly.

>I don't think it's a question of me deciding for anyone else what is or
>is not evil.  A fairly constant morality has been a vital part of human
>societies.  

Let's start  a list of that part of morality that has been fairly
constant in vital human societies. I'll let you start.

>To accept to live in a society is to accept the moral code.
>

Is this part of a social contract that I somehow failed to sign? I don't
"accept" the moral code of society, I act within its boundries for
two reasons: 1) I agree with it 2) I don't think the punishment is worth
the protest. When enough people view societies moral code as wrong then groups 
will work to change societies moral code. 


>No, not really.  If such an extremely unlikely situation were ever to take
>place, I would have no choice but to sacrifice one person so that
>millions could live.  I expect that any sane person would do the same.
>

The likeliness of the situation is not the point. You described a situation
which you named as evil, yet you are willing to commit the same evil. Both sides
are likely to say they are sane. What of good and evil now? A matter of
perspective? 

> One must take care not to allow oneself to abstract away the concreteness of 
> ethics. 

This is obviously a meta-rule of yours that must
have a lot of thought behind it. Why do you say this?
From: dab@ism.isc.com (Dave Butterfield)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Free will or Can Life After Death be Proven
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:14:22 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

pcollac@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Paul Collacchi) writes:
>...where is a thought.?  What color is it?  Does it have position
>and momentum?

One might ask similar questions about a computation occurring
in a digital computer.  One difference is, we understand enough
about that domain to realize that those questions hardly make
sense, and trying to answer them doesn't lead to much in the
way of insight into what a computation is.

>In another vane, this turns out to be false because in quantum mechanics
>"position" turns out to be a concept that doesn't correlate real well
>with what is supposed to be reality...

Yet computers continue to compute, and cars continue to run into
each other.

-- 
	I output a string of symbols and I observe the response.
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: bechdol@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Bechdol)
Subject: Re: Distance Education?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 13:51:54 GMT
Reply-To: bechdol@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester


Greetings !

In article <717995712snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au>, gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
|> [...]
|> 
|> Posting
|> new assignments I think would interest the other readers although
|> each new student would need to enrol for the entire unit, and have
|> work sent in regularly and on time in order to avoid being deleted
|> forthwith from the moderator's hard drive.
|> 
|> [...]

I would appreciate any advice and direction in the learning process.  However, I
must remain the master of my own time.  We must be flexible with the notion of
"regularly and on time," for what is timely for me depends on many things.

If an assignment takes me three days or three years should make no difference. 
What matters is that:

1. I'm learning.
2. I'm having fun.

Both are equally important.  I don't *need* to learn more about Anthropology, I
simply *want* to.  If it's not fun, well then, I'll go learn something else that
is.

Whoever said that education must be stuffy and regimented was likely in a
profession which no one else wanted to study. ;-)

Sorry for going overboard on this issue, but it's an old thorn in my side. ;-)


-- 
                                                                     Cheers,

                                                          Jeffery A. Bechdol
"What is essential is invisible to the eye."        IBM/ABS System Design II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: bechdol@vnet.ibm.com                           Voice: 507/253-5500
  Office: rchland(bechdol)                                 Fax: 507/253-8684
    Post: 3605 Hwy. 52 North; Rochester, MN 55901-7829     T/L: 553
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Disclaimer: These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: nmrdb@vms.macc.wisc.edu (BEVERLY SEAVEY)
Subject: PBS documentary series on the role of dance in world culture
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date:  1 OCT 92 16:31:55    

 "A new eight-part documentary series on the role of dance in world culture,
produced by Thirteen/WNET is scheduled for air in Oct/Nov 1992. Filmed on
location in 14 countries with five continents represented, DANCING will
explore why people dance as well as how they dance.  It will show the
extraordinary diversity of dance expression and the cultural meanings of
dance in different places at different times"

Check with your local public TV station.

Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: [SOC] What's the theory of culture-study? (no longer: communities)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1992 15:34:38 GMT

In article <717914456snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au writes:
			.
			.
			.
>While this thread now tangential to your immediate purpose may best
>be picked up under another heading, you still need to be fully aware
>of these matters before you enter the field. The attrition rate is
>extremely high . . .
>
>As well as Geertz, "Works & Lives" (thanks Cameron), you might
>like to read Taussig, "Shamanism, Colonialism, and the Wild Man" and
>Clifford, "The Predicament of Culture". There is also Foucault, "The
>Archaeology of Knowledge & "The Order of Things", as well as Bourdieu,
>"Outline of a Theory of Practice". There are the French Marxists, The
>Frankfurt School, the Chigaco School, Oxford and Cambridge Universities
>as well as Manchester and Sussex . . . so many others.
>
>And then there is Bateson, Goffman, Garfinckle, George Herbert Mead,
			.
			.
			.
Good suggestions.  But, before any of the other Marxist
deconstructionists of intellectual enterprise, I'd
recommend Gramsci.  And to really, *really* strip away
all hope about ethnography, from the philosophical
side, pick up Adorno.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Millenium (TV Series)
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 05:24:46 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents
Reply-To: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au

To Stephen Zielinski, the unauthenticated user at Oracle . . .


         GET YOUR MINDLESS JUVENILE RAVINGS OFF THIS GROUP!



Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,alt.uu.future,alt.uu.misc.misc,alt.education.distance
From: pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Millenium (TV Series)
Date: 3 Oct 92 17:03:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: ils.1992Oct3.170329.3809
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences

In article <718011590snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au>, gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
> In article <1992Oct1.143420.21668@ils.nwu.edu> pautler@ils.nwu.edu writes:
> 
>  > On the contrary, I'd wager that at least 80% of the audience was new-agers.
> 
> Such statistics are not recognised in the absence of survey data to
> support them.

You are being pedantic.  The original poster expressed his opinion of who
the majority of the audience was, and I replied with my own opinion.
One doesn't need survey data to "wager" as I did.

>  > The people you are referring to don't watch anthropological and "nature"
>  > programs because they're aware that their beliefs would be challenged or
> 
> It is not part of Anthropology to challenge or ridicule beliefs. Quite
> to the contrary, they constitute a large part of the object of study
> and as such merit tremendous respect.

It was an unfortunate choice of words.  I should have used "believe" in
place of "are aware".  I certainly don't believe anthropology ridicules
belief.

>  > ridiculed.  Maybury-Lewis's audience already shared his agenda; it was
>  > his responsibility as one of the few professional anthropologists on
>  > television to inject some real content into the mix.
> 
> It has never been the ambition of Anthropology, or any anthropologist
> at all to present everything to everybody at once. Any ethnography,
> whatever the medium of its presentation, is ALWAYS written for a
> particular audience, else the communication link between the people
> involved cannot be established. All of my work is written up, and all
> of my training programs are structured in different formats depending
> on who I am addressing, but the message is always the same.

You miss the point.  M-L didn't have to "present everything to everybody".
What I saw him do was perpetuate the dramatic cliches that surround the
popular conception of anthropology.  It is even more insulting to me as
a viewer to have stereotypes fed to me when the presenter is not just
another television hack but an anthropologist.

> That the _Millenium_ format does not suit everyone is not a valid
> criticism; perhaps through the Internet we can attempt to communicate
> to others what Maybury-Lewis is saying in a format some of you will be
> more comfortable with.

I am not a babe in the woods.  Please do not speak to me as though I were.

	-dp-
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Australian Religions
Date: 30 Sep 92 11:01:55 GMT
Followup-To: rosa@uk.ac.dundee.primea
Organization: Dundee University

<a> Why do you wish to see discussion of 'australian religions' move to
a the rec.pagan??? Surely social anthropology is still interested in
religions and societies???

<b> 'Zen Flesh, Zen Bones' is NOT inmyhumbleopinion an introduction to
'the dreaming' of an aboriginal group. It is a Western (glaswegian I
believe) introduction to ZEN - a japanese religion (also worthy of
soc anth research). In fact the best intros to aboriginal myths and rituals
is the groups own paintings/rituals and poems. I have a book by a female
elder of the current Uluru group which is her story of creation and 
her illustrations of such. She does not describe 'dreaming' because it
appears to be a male-only ritual for that group. 

I personally am interested in the way that earlier beliefs are made
compatable with incoming ideologies - the effect that christian
missionaries had on aboriginal thought and the effect the aboriginal
cosmolgy had on the missionaries. This at least is documented in 
an accessable fashion for a westerner through diaries/ newspaper cuttings
and more recent tribal memories...
Xref: sparky sci.anthropology:925 alt.uu.tools:36 alt.uu.misc.misc:4 alt.education.distance:376
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,alt.uu.tools,alt.uu.misc.misc,alt.education.distance
Subject: [GEN] Re: Distance Education?
Keywords: DSS: Directed Self-Study, FAQ, POS
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:35:21 GMT
Followup-To: sci.anthropology
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Sep29.133848.9654@rchland.ibm.com> bechdol@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>In article <717760326snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au>, gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>|> 
>|> Given the appalling level of argument in this newsgroup, I am tempted
>|> to offer short courses in Anthropology in an effort to build into the
>|> group at least an informed standard. We might also make some good use
>|> of this powerful medium of communication since it is freely available.
			.
			.
			.
>I think this is the best idea I've ever heard on the net!  It deserves its own
>prefix (something like: Directed Self-Study, dss.anthropology, and other sci.*
>could have a dss.*)...  we could keep FAQ-files (Frequently Asked Questions) and
>POS-files (Plans Of Study)... (I love acronyms)... which would list recommended
			.
			.
			.
1.  alt.education.distance and alt.uu.* readers might
    have some advice for us.  In particular, one might
    read the "What is Usenet University?" document in
    nic.funet.fi:/pub/doc/uu/what-is-uu.  Jyrki, can
    you help?
2.  A few of us have been stealing occasional seconds
    to construct a sci.anthropology FAQ.  Maybe I can
    work on it more in October ...  Write me if you
    want to co-operate on that.

Note that I've directed follow-ups back to sci.anthropology.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: help required for schools project
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 03:17:23 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents
Reply-To: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au

Hi Paul,

I think your project is a great idea, and certainly fits in with the
development of Distance Education through computer technology here in
Western Australia. I expect that in some areas, however, there are no
simple answers to students questions and a moderated forum on topics
raised by them may be appropriate.

My primary activities specifically cover:

        Cross-cultural education
        Systems of land tenure
        Sustainable development
        Community maintenance
        Rites of passage

Best of luck with your project,

Gil
----
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: JHARTLEY@cmsa.gmr.com
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: a business question
Date: 2 Oct 92 13:27:40 GMT
Organization: GM Research Labs

I hope it is not held in low esteem to study businesses from an anthropological
 perspective.  I am a psychologist - not an anthropologist - and am interested
in the relationships among the different groups in this large corporation
who are each responsible for some steps in the development of our products.
I would appreciate any suggested reading on the topics of intergroup
communication or dynamics or interactions (sorry about the vague terminology).
Any suggestions would be welcomed.  Thanks.
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: [GEN] Is anthropology possible? (was: communities)
Date: 4 Oct 92 01:20:23 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <1992Oct02.152305.23980@NeoSoft.com> claird@NeoSoft.com writes:

 > Yes, it does look as though Gil is denying
 > that anthropology is a science, in the sense
 > you use (appropriately) here.  If so, I
 > don't agree with Gil, although you'll find
 > plenty of practioners who are on his side.

I have merely posed the notion that Anthropology is not restricted to
the culturally specific definitions of Science which arose within a
very clear and unambiguous historical context, in response to the
question on whether Anthropology has yet earned a place as a "science".
Anthropology does, rather, treat Science as a human activity alongside
very many others.

There may perhaps be "sides", but please rest assured I am on none of
them; rather tremendous ethical problems in Anthropology arise from
whether we ourselves as professionals value one human activity over
another. I would expect anyone entering the discipline to think about
these matters before they settle down to the serious study of other
people.

If you want to study rocks rather than take the risk of having them
thrown at you, go and study Geology. Anthropologists get killed.


--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology