HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leadfoot@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Mark Curtis)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Subject: Re: Closed repeaters
Date: 5 Jan 1993 21:07:50 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigbootay.sw.stratus.com

In article <8333@lib.tmc.edu>, jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan5.165651.28417@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> laborde@oak.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Gregory R. LaBorde) writes:
|> >The problem is, all the other lanes are blocked by other peoples' parked 
|> >Porsches as well, and there are very few open lanes left. 
|> 
|> Only on that one freeway. There are other freeways that go from the same place
|> to the same place, and that are wide open.

Sure, but they are smaller, slower, and packed with big slow trucks :-)

The point is that the resource is being wasted by private groups who don't
have the right to claim exclusive use of something they don't own.  They
may own their car, but they don't own the lane it is parked in.  If you
don't believe this just park your car in the middle of an interstate lane
and watch what happens when the cops show up.  HINT: your Porsche will not
impress him enough to let you pull this crap.

|> >>Fortunately, the FCC disagrees with you.
|> >Actually, I think the FCC prohibits exclusive "ownership" of a frequency pair.
|> >They agree that you don't have to let someone else use your EQUIPMENT if you
|> >don't want to. 
|> 
|> The problem is that this leads to interference, and forcing someone to accept
|> interference to his repeater violates the agreement that let the ham community
|> tell him where to put it in the first place - "If you put your repeater here,
|> with these technical limits, we'll keep everyone else away" - and that's the
|> entire basis for frequency coordination in the first place. Now, we get back
|> to lawsuits.

Everyone has to accept and put up with interference for time to time.  This
ham radio, not ATT or ARInc.  It may be a little painful at times, but
tough.  Traffic jams on the hiway are the same way, no one likes them but
they are a fact of life.  If you drive you have to deal with traffic.

|> >I didn't get this message at all. I thought that Mark was demanding that Jim
|> >park his Porsche in the garage when he is not using it so that a public bus
|> >could use the lane. It also seems Mark and others understand that when Jim is
|> >ready to go somewhere, he has first dibs on the lane (as long as he doesn't
|> >"run the bus off the road"). 
|> 
|> ...but this is the rub: Jim _doesn't_ have "first dibs on the lane" if he has
|> to wait for the bus to lumber out of the way. You've just damaged, if not
|> destroyed, the usefulness of his repeater.

I wouldn't even say he gets first dibs!  He just gets the same access 
everyone rights else does.  If it is in use wait for your turn, just like
road traffic.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Subject: Re: Closed Repeaters.
Date: 7 Jan 1993 16:54:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <C0GrGH.EL8@iat.holonet.net> bwilkins@iat.holonet.net (Bob Wilkins n6fri) writes:
>Several years ago a Florida coordinating council decided that there would
>be no more closed repeaters on 2meters as the band was full. Those
>repeaters that did not operate in the "open" mode were subject to having
>to share with an active open repeater. A closed repeater group that had to
>share took their case of harmful interference to the commission. The
>closed repeater won its case. The florida coordinating council had to find
>an other pair for the new open repeater. 

The coordinator lucked out. The closed repeater's owner could have taken it to
court, and would likely have won big time; the coordinator, win or lose, would
have had to pay big bucks for legal expenses and would have had to deal with a
major hassle...

>Just what is the difference between open and closed repeaters anyway?
>I have heard more closed minds on open repeaters than closed repeaters.

There sure are a lot of closed minds in this discussion...
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
      "Science is all in the public domain, and allows few secrets."
              -- Tom Clancy, _The Sum of All Fears_
From: bobw@col.hp.com (Bob Witte)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Subject: Re: Closed repeaters
Date: 6 Jan 1993 04:36:06 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: la.col.hp.com

popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:
> Analogies are such fun!  Warning, flame bait:
> 
> > So use the next road over that has plenty of open lanes, and goes the same
> > places.
> 
> The problem is that the road that you are parked in is a wide, modern
> Interstate highway, while the next road over is an ungraded cow path
> that only certain premium-priced four-wheel drive vehicles can use
> productively.  To be more exact:

   So say I've got this Porsche what has CTCSS controlling the brakes.
   And the steering wheel has been replaced by a DTMF decoder and some 
   logic. Now this truck driver in the next lane....
   :-)

   Well, at least the discussion seems to have migrated to r.r.a.policy
   where it belongs. Enjoy.

   
 Bob Witte  /  HP Colo Springs  /  bobw@col.hp.com   /  KB0CY   
 
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: Closed repeaters
Organization: Columbia University
	<1icr4sINNl08@transfer.stratus.com> <8339@lib.tmc.edu>
	<POPOVICH.93Jan5220506@morningside.cs.columbia.edu>
	<9301061626.AA28626@catnip.berkeley.ca.us>
	<POPOVICH.93Jan6123530@morningside.cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:09:22 GMT

To clarify, my post was semi-serious, and semi-facetious.  I
overstated a few things, like saying that 1200 was so completely
different from the lower bands that nothing would work on it.  I just
thought it was fun to see how far I could take the analogy before it
broke down completely, as all of them do.  And Mr. Maynard, in his
capacity as Guardian of the Closed Repeaters ;-), then of course had
to do me the courtesy of breaking it down for me :-).  Perhaps I
didn't include enough smiley faces in the first post.
	-Steve
From: bwilkins@iat.holonet.net (Bob Wilkins n6fri)
Subject: Re: Closed Repeaters.
Organization: the cAVe group
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:09:52 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
: [Followups to .policy...]
: 
: In article <1993Jan5.195950.5210@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mdc@vixen.cc.bellcore.com (marden,david c) writes:
: >I feel that if at all possible the repeater coordinator(s) should
: >reassign the pair in cases like this. Maybe the FCC should delegate
: >the power to do this??
: 
: No coordinator would do so, for the simple reason that he'd get his ass sued
: off. On what basis do you decide that that club gets kicked off the frequency?
: Can you defend it in court? Can you even afford to defend it in court? You're
: asking the coordinator to make a value judgment, and that way lie lawsuits.

Several years ago a Florida coordinating council decided that there would
be no more closed repeaters on 2meters as the band was full. Those
repeaters that did not operate in the "open" mode were subject to having
to share with an active open repeater. A closed repeater group that had to
share took their case of harmful interference to the commission. The
closed repeater won its case. The florida coordinating council had to find
an other pair for the new open repeater. 

It might do some good to read the report and orders that accompany all new
rules that are a part of 97. There is some good analysis of why and intent.

Just what is the difference between open and closed repeaters anyway?
I have heard more closed minds on open repeaters than closed repeaters.

 

-- 
Bob Wilkins    n6fri          voice 440.250+ 100pl san francisco bay area
bwilkins@holonet.net          packet n6fri @ w6pw.#nocal.ca.usa.na
 
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: chrisc@biggus.moron.vware.mn.org (Chris Cox  W0/G4JEC)
Subject: Re: Telnet Server and KA9Q NOS 930104
Organization: Twin Cities Metro Area Network, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 11:31:35 GMT

To use the telnet mailbox, you need to edit the config.h file.  In its
released configuration, the mailbox is undefined.

Chris
-- 
73  Chris Cox  W0/G4JEC
chrisc@biggus.g4jec.tcman.ampr.org     chrisc@biggus.moron.vware.mn.org
 Eleventh Hour Contest Group - North American Chapter; Minneapolis, MN
   Twin Cities Metro Area Network node (biggus.g4jec.tcman.ampr.org)
From: sro@media.mit.edu (Shawn O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Ivo's Mailer docs?
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:08:04 GMT
Distribution: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory

Does anyone know where I can find documentation for Ivo's mailer for
the Macintosh, IM/Mac?  I can find up-to-the-minute versions, but 
I can't find even an old set of docs.  

Or is IM/Mac close enough to BM that I can figure it out from BM's
instructions?

--Shawn
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: jstark@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Jens Stark)
Subject: Re: Telnet Server and KA9Q NOS 930104
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:44:44 GMT

chrisc@biggus.moron.vware.mn.org (Chris Cox  W0/G4JEC) writes:

>To use the telnet mailbox, you need to edit the config.h file.  In its
>released configuration, the mailbox is undefined.

Sorry to be off subject, but where can i FTP the official configuration ?

Greetings,
   Jens
From: jerryb@jerber.sandiego.sgi.com (Jerry Bransford)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Re: Wormhole - What is it?
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:49:13 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1993Jan3.042000.11741@spatula.rent.com>, ahm@spatula.rent.com
(Andreas Meyer) writes:
|> In rec.radio.amateur.packet, p653663@austin.lockheed.com (p653663)
|> writes:
|> > Sure would appreciate some docs on the wormholes or whatever
|> > they are called. What are they and how do you use them.
|> 
|> I suspect a "documented wormhole" would be called a "gateway". :-)
|> 
|> Andy
|> -- 
|>  Andreas Meyer, N2FYE      ahm@spatula.rent.com     "Been there. Did
|> that."

Now I know nothing about wormholes except for what was in a recent
newspaper article that discussed them briefly.

It's a VERY theoretical/hypothetical method of travel through space that
allows very rapid/instantaneous travel via these so-called 'wormholes' to
distant (light years of distance) places. It's said that this method, if it
can be figured out enough to use, would allow some forms of spacetravel to
be almost instananeous.    

This theory is beyond my understanding, but they claim it has serious
scientific validity.

Please no flames... I'm no trekky, and have no belief in the above one way
or another, just relaying a tiny bit of what the newspaper article said.

Bottom line?  Don't look for a wormhole to be available anywhere soon.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jerry Bransford			
Silicon Graphics
(619) 546-0409
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: ronk@cascade.ens.tek.com (Ron Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Re: Wormhole - What is it?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 15:28:59 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.,  Beaverton, OR
Distribution: world
Reply-To: Ron.C.Kirkpatrick@tek.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ens.tek.com

In article <1993Jan3.042000.11741@spatula.rent.com>, ahm@spatula.rent.com (Andreas Meyer) writes:
|> In rec.radio.amateur.packet, p653663@austin.lockheed.com (p653663) writes:
|> > Sure would appreciate some docs on the wormholes or whatever
|> > they are called. What are they and how do you use them.
|> 
|> I suspect a "documented wormhole" would be called a "gateway". :-)
|> 
|> Andy
|> -- 
|>  Andreas Meyer, N2FYE      ahm@spatula.rent.com     "Been there. Did that."

A wormhole is a link from (say) the West coast to the East coast via
satellite or dedicated phone line. It is outside of the 'normal' world of
amateur radio.

-- 
Ron Kirkpatrick (N7RFA/AFA5HZ/BF151)
Tektronix, Inc
503-627-6707
From: RON@NSULA.EDU (Ron Wright - NSU Computer Center)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Telnet Server and KA9Q NOS 930104
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:36:11 GMT
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu
Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu

I recently downloaded the latest version of the KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package
from UCSD.EDU.  This latest version seems to no longer support the TELNET
SERVER.  It does not allow you to "START TELNET" and TELNET does not
show up as an option under the START command.  Can someone enlighten me
on this change.  Is there a new alternative I am overlooking.

I would be very interested in aany information anyone would be willing
to post regarding a comparison of features and services offered by the
various NOS derivatives.


Ron - KA5LUG

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Wright - KA5LUG                Internet:  RON@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU
User Support Specialist           	      KA5LUG@AMSAT.ORG
Northwestern State University     
Natchitoches, LA  71497
(318) 357-5594                     Packet:    KA5LUG@N5HOF.LA.USA.NA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cuddeback@merlin.nmhu.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Help subscribing
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:58:17 GMT
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu
Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu

I am having a difficult time subscribing to I-PACRAD at LISTSERV@UIUCVMD.  I
keep getting a service messange stating that UIUCVMD doesn't exist.  What am I
doing wrong?  Is the interest group still alive? 

Thanks for any information.


 Ken Cuddeback, NL7WD                     Tel: (505)454-3452
 Computer Operations Manager              Fax: (505)454-1916      
 New Mexico Highlands University
 Las Vegas, NM 87701
From: anderson@sdd.COMsat.COM (Gary Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: FBB 5.14D Garbled Bulletins
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:20:12 GMT
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu
Originator: daemon@ucsd.edu


Thanks for reading this posting.  I am relatively new to this news group, so
if I'm asking a question that has been recently dealt with, please use low
intensity flames.
I'm in the process of bringing up an F6FBB 5.14D BBS, and am also running
the BPQ 4.06 node switch with it.  This is on a '286 clone w/ 2 Mb memory.
The problem I just observed last night is that messages/bulletins longer than
approx 3.2K - 3.5K characters will be fine for the first page or so, then the
remaining text in the bulletin is badly mangled.

Has anyone with a similar set-up seen this same problem ??

If anyone has any hints/answers/guesses, please forward them to me 
at:  anderson@sdd.comsat.com.

Thanks,
Gary (N3KCD)
From: jf1lzq@jh1ynw.prug.or.jp (Yutaka Sakurai)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Re: high speed packet radio question
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:29:03 GMT
Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Organization: PRUG Yokohama

In article <1ifs0tINNfeo@morrow.stanford.edu>, mattc@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew William Clarke) writes:
> 
> What I am mainly trying to figure out is this:  What type of setup will
> allow high speed operation  >= 9600 baud?   What bands are used by high-speed
> packet radio?  How many people (approx.) operate at these speeds?  What
> are the limitations?

PRUG(Packet Radio User's Group) in Japan is developping 64kbps system.

The high speed KISS-TNC, which might work well up to a few Mbps, has been 
developped by JE1WAZ and his wife (NOCALL).
The 64kbps modem for 1.2GHz FM transceiver has developped by JS1DCF & JK1FNL.

We are trying to use this system for long distance communication.
The success reports will be here soon. (^_^)

Yutaka Sakurai / JF1LZQ
From: brian@ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Re: SLIP - What is
Date: 5 Jan 1993 16:50:21 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

SLIP is Serial Line IP.  It's a trivial protocol for encapsulating an IP
frame on a serial line to do cheap IP networking.  KISS is the same
thing for AX.25.  Details in the docs in the hamradio/packet collection
on UCSD.EDU.
	- Brian
From: braun@isctssl.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Curtis Braun)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Tiny-2 to 2sat, help!
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:31:40 GMT

Hi, I know that I've seen this in QST and other places, but
since I just traded away my kenwood 205 and picked up a 
24at and 2sat Icom, i could use some help. I tried to
hook up my icom like I did the kenwood but I get no tx audio.
I now remember that somewhere I saw a hook up that included a
transformer? Can some kind soul point me to a place I can find
a schematic to interface my 2sat to my tiny-2 ?
Thanks in advance, I really need to get this up this week.
.

-- 
Curtis Braun (curtis@computronics.com) (n2hkd)
Computronics, POBOX 1002 Fairport,NY 14450 
Guest@Digital Telstar,Network Operations Center Kodak 
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: sam@wa4phy.async.com (Sam Drinkard)
Subject: Re: KISS only EPROM for TNC2 ?
Organization: none
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:51:07 GMT

JRA1854@TNTECH.EDU (Jeffrey Austen) writes:

>Is there a reliable way to keep a TNC2 in KISS mode?  Mine keeps forgetting
>when the power fails.

Yes there is Jeff.. it's called Jkiss which is a kiss only eprom from the
G8BPQ package.  If you send me a 27256 eprom (doesn't matter if it has 
something on it or not) I'll send you a Jkiss eprom.  I do lots of 'em
for the locals..

If you want it, email me direct and I'll send you my mailing address

sam
-- 
	S.W. Drinkard			| Internet: sam@wa4phy.async.com
	4428 Branchwood Drive		| Internet: sam@galois.nscf.org
	Martinez, GA  30907		| Amprnet : sam@wa4phy.ampr.org
	(706) 868-8029			 
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: kb7uv@panix.com (Andy Funk)
Subject: Re: TNC-2 Mods wanted
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:47:07 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

Jack,

It sounds to me like you want to turn your TNC-2 into a Paccomm Tiny-2
Mark II!

PacComm sells upgrade kits for clock-doubling their Tiny-2...  It may well
work in other TNC-2 clones.  The EPROM doubling, though, isn't available
as a mod... But it is incorporated in their Mark II.  (They also have a
universal DCD mod board.)

No, I'm not affiliated with PacComm, other than owning way too many of
their TNCs!

Here's their info:

PacComm Packet Radio Systems, Inc.
4413 N. Hesperides St.
Tampa, FL  33614-7618
 Voice: 813-874-2980
   FAX: 813-872-8696
CompuServe: 76576,2003  (76576.2003@compuserve.com)

73, Andy
-- 
        ______________________ Andrew Funk, KB7UV ______________________
       |     Chair, Radio Amateur Telecommunications Society (RATS)     |
       | ENG Editor/Microwave Control, WCBS-TV Channel 2 News, New York |
       | Internet: kb7uv@panix.com      Packet: kb7uv@kb7uv.#nli.ny.usa |
From: kohjin@marina.prug.or.jp (Kohjin Yamada)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Re: access to KA(Q tcp/ip code?
Summary: need Makefile for UNIX
Date: 6 Jan 93 17:54:29 GMT
Organization: I'm alone

In article <1993Jan5.150200.12587@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com> kf5mg@VNET.IBM.COM writes:
|In <1ia2rcINNna7@sixgun.East.Sun.COM| gilly@gilly.East.Sun.COM (Bob Gilliland SE Cloumbia, Md Office) writes:
||From where on the Internet can I download Phil's, KA(Q, cuurent release of tcp/ip code?
||Anonymous ftp I hope...
||
||Thanks for your help,
||
||Bob  K3TCT
|
|The UCSD.EDU ftp server has all the latest TCP/IP code. KA9Q JUST 
|posted his latest version yesterday. s930104.zip is in the
|/hamradio/packet/tcpip/ka9q directory. The other flavors of NOS are in
|their own directories in the /hamradio/packet/tcpip directory.

I've just made a ftp from UCSD.EDU and found there's no Makefile for UNIX
included.
Does anyone know of getting one for UNIX platform, preferably Sperc, BSDI
or 386BSD?

For the moment, I'm going to compile it with bcc anyway, thanks.
-- 
    *----/----*    CompuServe: Kohjin Yamada, JR1EDE [76662,111]
  Q-----T------H   504-55 Shimo-Yamaguchi, Hayama, Miura, Kanagawa, Japan
*------/|-------*  Phone:+81-468-75-6750   Fax/Modem/Voice:+81-468-76-1176
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: bassett@basset.wro.dec.com (Greg Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Conversion from W0RLI to FidoNet?
Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Date: 11 Jan 1993 19:59:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bassett@basset.wro.dec.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: basset.wro.dec.com


--

This is posted on behalf of N6MON, Terry Taylor.

*************************************************************************

Does anyone know if there exists a utility to convert from W0RLI format
messages to FidoNet *.MSG (landline BBS) format and back. Ideally, the
conversion would also leave intact thet routing and "seen by" (or
equivalent) of both systems. I know that AA4RE can accept a landline
connection, but Packet BBS's make poor phone BBS's (and vice-versa),
especially for non-technical users.

Terry Taylor, N6MON

Please respond by email, as I do not normally follow REC.HAM.RADIO

tetaylor@sfovmic1.vnet.ibm.com

*************************************************************************

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Bassett - KJ6EP				KJ6EP @ N6QMY
Digital Equipment Corp                          (408) 496-3474
Santa Clara, CA                                 bassett@merlot.wro.dec.com
                                                bassett@merlot.enet.dec.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.packet
From: Minh Lang <minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: SLIP - What is
X-Xxdate: Mon, 4 Jan 93 10:41:20 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:36:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.181825.1375@fid.morgan.com> Joe Collins,
joec@fid.morgan.com writes:
>>
>>Together with TCP/IP, KA9Q/NOS ... I often read the word SLIP.
>>I couldn't find an explanation in the recent FAQ-file!
>>Is anybody out there who can explain me SLIP?
>
>I belive it stands for the SINGLE LINE INTERFACE PROGRAM. Its associated
>with the UNIX world....But I checked my UNIX manpages and UNIX apropos
and 
>they come up blank....Sorry I couldnt be more helpful.
>
>Joe
>joec@morgan.com

It stands for "Serial Line IP". It's a protocol that makes a remote
machine linked over serial line to act like a machine that is linked
thru real ethernet.

  == Minh ==
+------------------------------------------------------------+
 Minh Lang, Software Engineer  - Jet Propulsion Laboratory
 Instrumentation Systems Group - Instrumentation section 375
 Note:  My employer has nothing to do with what I said here...
+------------------------------------------------------------+