HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fstawit@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:33:54 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1ii72hINNi9p@gap.caltech.edu> 
farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
>....................
>Buddhism is indeed unique in not ascribing divinity to the Buddha, but
>I would hardly refer to him as an ordinary guy.
>

I still prefer to regard him as an ordinary man. However, i think
we are all 'extra-ordinary.' (The buddha would probably agree with
me on this point.:-)

Forgive me to mention Buddhadasa again. I (and most Thai people)
have good reasons to believe that he's enlightened. I regard him
as my teacher and many times i felt fustrated in not seeing him
be extra-ordinary so that i can boast to all my friends about all the 
magnificence of my guru. But when i think more i realize that to
be ordinary is the most difficult thing to do on this earth, especially
when you know that you are extraordinary. And i believe that he does not
TRY to be ordinary; it's automatic. That makes it even more extraordinary.

You only need to know him or read his work to realize that this is
NO ordinary monk. He is the most prolific buddhist author of all time.
(Some 100 thick volumes and 100s other smaller books.) He would probably
be world famous by now if he seeked publicity by traveling to the West
as has constantly been asked and/or offered by various parties.
Even in his own native country, he didn't make much public appearance
; just work all day long at his simple forest monastery, to help
alleviate the sufferings of all the souls within his sphere of influence.

Well, thanks to Usenet. I might just boast about the magnificence
of this ordinary man. :-)

-tawit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give me some Zen, so i can be sane.
Give me some Yens, and i'll be your friend.
Give me more Zen, i'll end the sufferings in heaven.
Give me more Yens, i'll buy more bliss in this hell.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:26:41 GMT
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu


 
|> I agree with the poster who originated this thread (Alan?), that
|> buddhism is unique in its lack of the almighty. Let's keep it
|> that way for the sake of religio-diversity.
|> 
|> 
|> -tawit chitsomboon
|> 
 
Two things are interesting about this; (1) that a religion that does not attempt
to define/describe the "absolute" as God seems to lead to very similar religious
experiences as the religions that do and (2) that subsequent development 
(Mahayanist/Tantric) moved closer and closer to the concept of diety in 
practice through adibuddha's, boddhisattva's etc.
From: asanders@adobe.com (Alan Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Our desires and our way of life
Date: 8 Jan 1993 18:08:18 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

| I find this particular quote fatalistic. This is so because we 
| all know that we do not have access to our "deep driving desire"...
|
| The central message of Buddhism seems to me to be that "yes, your
| deepest desire is very powerful and have a lot of say in your being 
| BUT...you can change it gradually by practice.

				-W.F. Wong

This message implies a belief that desire is something "bad", that
to be controlled is something bad. And yet, the realization of our
nothingness is the first step on the spiritual journey. When Buddha
declares that desire is the cause of suffering, he is speaking of
ordinary worldy desires, ego desires, etc. Yet he himself came
to this realization after taking a solemn vow not to rise from
his seat until he knew the truth of man's existence. That was a
pretty strong desire, I'd say! If a blade of grass is prevented
from expressing its fundamental desire to grow toward the sun,
it withers and dies. If man is denied (or denies himself) the
expression of his "heart's desire", he also withers. We cannot
become "someone else". Either we become what we essentially are, 
or we die unactualized.

That's the way I see it on this rainy Friday afternoon...

					-Alan
From: abulsari@aton.abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Hindu Calendar for January 1993
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:18:24 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

To soc.religion.eastern :

In article <1iilcsINNlvi@gap.caltech.edu> editor@rbhatnagar.csm.uc.edu writes:
>
>                   HINDU CALENDAR  for January 1993 
>                   =================================
>
> Hindu Calendar:
>   Hindu calendar consists a cycle of 60years.  Each year year has 12 months,
>   and each month has thirty days. These are fixed on the basis of Moon,
>   (english calendars are based on SUN). In order to take care of extra days,
>   the calndars some time have adhika-masa ( like extra-day  in a leap year).
>   Each month has two fortnights Krishna Paksha (New-Moon fortnight or 
>   dark fortnight) and Shukla Paksha (Full-Moon fortnight or Glowing fortnight).

I think there is no single Hindu calendar, unless you call anything
Indian Hindu. Our Vikram Samvata runs the year 2049 now, and although
very similar to what was posted, it is not the same. Vikram Samvata
calendar is also Hindu, as much Gujarat is in Hindustan.

Abhay
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: How to cross-post articles with soc.religion.eastern
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:02:37 GMT
Organization: soc.religion.eastern
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

There has been some question as to the proper procedure for cross-posting
articles with soc.religion.eastern.

Suppose person A wanted to post their article to
talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,soc.religion.eastern, and 
soc.religion.christianity

This person would actually submit their article 3 times:

1. Post the article to all UNmoderated groups.
   -e.g. 1. Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage

2. Submit the article to EACH moderated newsgroup you want to:
   -e.g. 2. Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
         3. Newsgroups: soc.religion.christianity

The reason for doing this is because it is impossible for the moderator
to tell whether an article has been posted yet.  This means that duplicate
postings to various newsgroups could occur.

Please E-MAIL me if there are any further questions.  Do not followup
on this newsgroup.

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:41:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.211340.8504
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1injsiINNokm@gap.caltech.edu>, fstawit@convx1.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:
> 
> Forgive me to mention Buddhadasa again. I (and most Thai people)
> have good reasons to believe that he's enlightened. I regard him
> as my teacher and many times i felt fustrated in not seeing him
> be extra-ordinary so that i can boast to all my friends about all the 
> magnificence of my guru. But when i think more i realize that to
> be ordinary is the most difficult thing to do on this earth, especially
> when you know that you are extraordinary. And i believe that he does not
> TRY to be ordinary; it's automatic. That makes it even more extraordinary.
> 

I think that anybody that fits our preconceived picture of
enlightenment is probably a sham. The magnificence of an enlightened
being is not something the average person can see, and often, the EB
will piss people off, but not always.

In a couple of descriptions I have heard about, there is a series of
gradations of spiritual advancement. There is the state in which one
is aware of all that is nasty within one. There is then the state
which could be call sainthood, where one is all goodness and light.

There is a zen story in this regard. Forgive me if I do not remember
the names of the protagonists, but I will refer to them as Zen
Patriarch (ZP), and Mountain Saint (MS).

MS lived up on his mountain in seclusion, and every day the birds
would attend to him, and the wild mountain tigers would come up to be
petted by him.

ZP went to visit him. As they sat down to chat, a tiger came up out of
the forest, and ZP jumped behind his rock in fright. MS laughed, and
said "I see it is still with you," meaning aversion.

MS got up to make some tea, and while he was gone ZP wrote the name of
the Buddha on MS' seat. When MS came back with the tea and began to
sit, he saw the Buddha's name, and got back up, visibly agitated. To
which ZP comments "I see it is still with you." At this, MS became
enlightened. 

It is said that after this, the birds no longer flocked to him, the
tigers no longer came up to be petted.
______

An enlightened being sees things as they are, and are beyond all
dualistic notions of splendour and squalor, good and bad. I think a
sensitive person could tell, maybe, but to your ordinary guy, and
enlightened being could appear to be another ordinary guy. You
yourself state that the things Buddhadasa does indicate he is no
ordinary guy.

			that's my two cents,
				Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Our desires and our way of life....
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:06:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.211138.8311
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1inir4INNoih@gap.caltech.edu>, RADAMS@cerritos.edu (Roger Adams) writes:
:In article <1iknsrINN6pd@gap.caltech.edu>, 
:mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:
:
:Toshi wrote:
::: --Meditation actually may train the mind so that some of our attachments
                          ^^^
:::   become unimportant!!
:

That little word there is very important in this discussion.

:Marc replies:
::So one program (which some would call "materialistic desire") is replaced
::with some other program (which one could call "spiritual desire").
::One might wonder what's the base of all this programming
(conditioning).

If I am not mistaken, Trungpa terms this spiritual materialism.

:
:Meditation as I know it is not a program and it is not conditioning. In fact,
:it is the opposite.Programming and conditioning are all events taking place in
:the realm of the senses which keep us limited to body consciousness and
:controlled by the ego. Meditation withdraws the energy from this limited realm
:into the higher centers of consciousness where the law of karma does not
:operate and cannot operate. This is why we often have the experience of a very
:satisfying, peaceful meditation, then when we come out of the meditation, all
:hell seems to break loose. What happens is that after  meditation, the
:consciousness for most of us goes back into the ego and that is where the law
:of karma becomes operative and all likes, dislikes, actions, reactions occur.
:The ego is always trying to avoid discomfort and hence all the problems,
:worries, anxiety and this happens because of a lack of letting go and surrender
:of ego during times when not meditating.

Meditation CAN be a means for helping get out of programming and
conditioning. But it is by no means a given. There are many other
possibilities that I have seen, and a few more I could think of. One
might be feeding a sort of spiritual egotism. It could be getting used
as much as an escape from the pains of life as drugs. Etc., etc.

Cutting through conditioning takes more than just meditation. It takes
awareness, brutal honesty, and determination. Meditation can help
that. But it won't do it for you. If your every thought and action is
not treated with the same mindfulness as meditation, meditation can
become just some sort of astral pacifier.

			yours in harsh pseudo-realism,
				Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Our desires and our way of life....
Date: 9 Jan 1993 14:16:04 -0800
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1iknsrINN6pd@gap.caltech.edu>, 
mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:

Toshi wrote:
> : --Meditation actually may train the mind so that some of our attachments
> :   become unimportant!!

Marc replies:
> So one program (which some would call "materialistic desire") is replaced
> with some other program (which one could call "spiritual desire").
> One might wonder what's the base of all this programming (conditioning).

Meditation as I know it is not a program and it is not conditioning. In fact,
it is the opposite. Programming and conditioning are all events taking place in
the realm of the senses which keep us limited to body consciousness and
controlled by the ego. Meditation withdraws the energy from this limited realm
into the higher centers of consciousness where the law of karma does not
operate and cannot operate. This is why we often have the experience of a very
satisfying, peaceful meditation, then when we come out of the meditation, all
hell seems to break loose. What happens is that after  meditation, the
consciousness for most of us goes back into the ego and that is where the law
of karma becomes operative and all likes, dislikes, actions, reactions occur.
The ego is always trying to avoid discomfort and hence all the problems,
worries, anxiety and this happens because of a lack of letting go and surrender
of ego during times when not meditating.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          293 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RADAMS@cerritos.edu (Roger Adams)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...y
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:54:36 GMT
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1ihtkfINNfsd@gap.caltech.edu>, 
fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:

> According to many of your posts in the past and this one included,
> divinity is common place. 

The divine consciousness is everywhere but mostly hidden; it is fully
manifest in only a few. So, the full manifestation of divinity in this dream
world is rare. Therefore divinity is not common place at least as far as
we ordinarily percieve things.

> I hear a simile that our Self is like a diamond coverved with mud
> and we need to work hard to rid the diamond off the  mud so that
> it can shine all its brightness. If everything is devine, why not
> at least give the mud equal value as the diamond? Better yet,
> keep the mud and throw the diamond away!

The mud refers to ego which is temporal. Only ego can be discarded and what
remains is pure divine consciousness.

> A wise man like the buddha will never say anything as controversial
> as 'everything is devine' 

Neither would I (not so wise man).

> I agree with the poster who originated this thread (Alan?), that
> buddhism is unique in its lack of the almighty. Let's keep it
> that way for the sake of religio-diversity.

I see no diversity here except on the surface.

Buddhism seems to say that Buddha was ordinary like the rest of us and he
became fully enlightened therefore all the rest of us can take heart and
likewise become enlightened.

Yoga says that Buddha was divine as are the rest of us but he fully manifested
this divinity in his enlightenment therefore all the rest of us can take
heart and likewise become enlightened and fully manifest the divinity.

It is the same thing. I see no disagreement. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          293 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zitsky+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Ryan Miller)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Buddha statue (please help!)
Date: 5 Jan 1993 09:30:12 -0800
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

Does anyone know of a way to obtain a Buddha statue?? I'm looking
for an Indian or Thai Buddha, perhaps about 6-8 inches high.
I have not been able to find a suitable one.  I would like to have
one for a small personal altar, something that would motivate me
in my Buddhist studies.  I'd like to find something less than $50.
Or maybe someone could point me to where I could get a good quality
photo/poster???

Please help!


--Mark
From: pjm@isis.cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Our desires and our way of life....
Date: 7 Jan 1993 10:40:22 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1igp7tINN8ia@gap.caltech.edu> tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi) writes:
>
>One of the great principles that I learned from Buddhism is that change
>brings pain.
>

Caterpillars change into butterflies. 
Fortunately there are two great principles in Buddhism.
The 4 Truths, i think, are best considered psychological truths.
The 2 Truths are the philosophical truths.
From the philosophical teaching it is important to remember
that change, being a mark of emptiness, is also an absolute.
I just wanted to point this out since it is so often said
that Buddhism teaches that change brings pain.

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: mvishnu@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Missing Verse in Samkhya Karika
Date: 4 Jan 1993 13:03:41 -0800
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

I recently read a paper written in 1924 by the Indian freedom
fighter Bal Gangadar Tilak.  The title of the paper is "The 
Missing Verse in Samkhya Karika".

Samkhya Karika is a commentary on Sage Kapila's Samkhhya 
aphorisms by Ishvara Krishna and is believed to be the oldest
surviving work on Samkhya philosophy.  Samkhya philosophy
is a dualistic philosophy that concerns with the removal of
pain through discriminative knowledge.

The last sloka says that there are 70 verses in the book but one 
finds only 69 verses (excluding the concluding three verses which
talks about the guru-parampara.

No satisfactory explanation has been given for this discrepancy.
However, in this paper, Tilak shows conclusively that the sloka
following the 61st verse is the one missing.  The 61st sloka says:

"Nothing is more modest than Nature (Prakriti): such is my opinion. 
Once aware of having been seen, she does not again expose
herself to the view of the Spirit (Purusha)"

Following this sloka, which states that the Nature (moola-prakriti) as
the ultimate cause, the author refutes theories which puts other
ultimate causes such as Ishwara, Paramathma, Time, Svabhava.

Later Vedantins found this verse offensive (they hold the view that
the quality-less Brahman (=Paramathma) is the ultimate cause) and
deleted it from the Karika.  However, they took the commentary of
the deleted verse and attached to the commentary of the 61st verse. 
A Chinese translation of the Karika contains more information.
Using the quotations  in the commentary, Tilak has recontructed the
missing verse.

The paper contain many other interesting facts about Vedantins 
screwing up Hindu philosophical works.  I found the paper in the
appendix of  Colebrooke's translation of the Karika.  This 
translation was done around 1930. 


Recently, a German shcolar has found some missing verses and extrapolated
verses of the Yoga Sutra of Sage Patanjali.  According to him, all those
verses dealing with Ishwara (there are about 5) are later interpolations.
However, I have not read this paper yet.

Comments Welcome.

Meenan Vishnu
From: umeshmo@microsoft.com (Umesh Mokate)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: revelations or lack thereof...
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:48:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1993Jan12.212000.9422
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

>>    Someone else feel free to set the record straight.  You've got
>>    your Vedas, which are enormous and rambling.  But a core document
>>    appears to be the Bhagavad Gita, sometimes called the bible of
>>    Hinduism.  In it, Krishna is the chariotdriver of Arjuna.  Krishna
>>    is portrayed as supernatural, a direct physical manifestation of
>>    divinity who "reveals" the mystic truth to Arjuna. 
>

I did not see any post setting the "record straight". So I thought to 
write this note.

Hinduism has three books as its scriptures. They are Vedas, Bramha sutra and
the Gita. Of the three, Gita is comparatively easy to understand, so it
has become more popular. (One really needs a competent teacher to explain
the Bramha-sutras as well as Upanishads.) But Hinduism maintains that the 
final authority (on the subject of God) are the Vedas. If someone finds a 
descripancy in these three books, the opinion expressed in Vedas is taken as
the final word. 

Umesh...

ps: This why Buddha was considered as a rebelious child of Hinduism because
    he refused to recognize the authority of Vedas.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddha statue
Date: 6 Jan 1993 23:36:32 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gap.caltech.edu

In article <1ifsbhINN24j@gap.caltech.edu>, drizzt@spock.uucp (Neela Jacques) writes:
:
:Does anyone know of a way to obtain a Buddha statue?? I'm looking
:for an Indian or Thai Buddha, perhaps about 6-8 inches high.
:I have not been able to find a suitable one.  I would like to have
:one for a small personal altar, something that would motivate me
:in my Buddhist studies.  I'd like to find something less than $50.
:Or maybe someone could point me to where I could get a good quality
:photo/poster???

Try DharmaCrafts, 199 Auburn Street, Cambridge, MA 02139; or 
DharmaWare, 54C(9) Tinker Street, Woodstock, NY 12498
both ask for $2 for their catalogue.
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************