From: greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield)
Subject: Re: PORTLAND: American Front (Hate group) transcript
Organization: Syracuse University, CIS Dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 12:24:15 EST

In article <1992Dec10.013654.14421@oracle.us.oracle.com> rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:
>
>>>Note the shallow effort to smear me by associating me with a PC run by
>>>a couple of teenagers nearly a thousand miles away from me, instead of
>>>associating me with a genuine concern for free speech.
>
>>At first I thought this was the case--and I even posted a message questioning
>>his statement--since I saw nothing in Mr. Childers' statement cited (or in
>>the original post from which it came) that implied sympathy with B-CPU.  It
>>appeared to be mere indication of support for free speech.
>
>That is precisely true.
>
>
>>I don't think Mr. Keren will mind if I say that he replied to me via email,
>>clarifying that his statements were also based on other things that Mr.
>>Childers had said, in the past.
>
>Unless he showed you everything he said, that's perception control, not
>clarification.

No, it was a clarification.  I complained that one statement he posted did not
follow from another.  He *clarified* his post by stating that the statement
in question actually depended upon more information than was in the post.

That's a clarification of his position.  It says nothing of whether his claims
about you were true.  But it does clarify that he doesn't see mere support
for free speech as sympathy with the speaker--which was what I had questioned.


>>>Grow up, Danny boy. ( Who _also_ has a dual citizenship with Israel, if
>>>memory and previous emails Danny and I have exchanged serve me correctly -
>>>and they always do ... )
>
>>But I must admit, I find this *very* strange.  What could Mr. Keren's
>>citizenship status have to do the discussion at hand?
>
>It suggests that he is not unbiased where B-CPU is concerned. I agree that
>B-CPU is alarming, but I also think that trashing UUCP sites is alarming.
>
>One is overt terrorism, I believe. Which is worse in your perspective ?

I don't like b-cpu's drivel, but I would consider an attempt to suppress them
worse.

Did Mr. Keren have something to do with b-cpu's loss of access?


>>This would appear to be nothing more than an attempt to suggest that Israeli
>>citizenship somehow makes Mr. Keren bad, unreliable, a liar, or something
>>of that nature.
>
>Just biased, and less than honest, since he only admits this when directly
>questioned. I have nothing against dual citizenships, but I _do_ have some-
>-thing against hidden agendas.

I still don't follow.  Your "biased, and less than honest" is essentially the
same as my "unrelaible."

How is this related to his citizenship?

I'm Jewish, and though I'm not Israeli, I do have family in Israel, and I've
even been there to visit them.

Does this make me "biased?"

Furthermore, I don't usually go around publicizing these facts, just as I
don't go around stating that I'm an American citizen, PhD candidate, 5'9",
married with two children, or anything else that isn't relevant to whatever
discussion I'm involved in.

Does this mean that I'm "less than honest?"


>>Please explain to me how this statement can be interpreted to be something
>>other than an ethnic slur.
>
>As seen above, the explanation is straightforward. Why ? Did Danny suggest
>that I was racially slurring him ? I'm a Unitarian, we're pretty tight with
>the local Jewish community, I think this is rather far-fetched.

No.  I'm quite able to draw my own conclusions.

You may be thinking many things that you *don't* include in your post when
you write your post--but I only see what you actually write.  So just as I
did with Mr. Keren, I asked for a clarification of your post.

Your statement about Mr. Keren's citizenship was, to me, a non-sequitur.  The
only way that I could find for it to make any sense within your post was to
interpret it to imply that Mr. Keren was somehow bad, unreliable, etc., as
I posted.

So, I simply posted asking whether this was, in fact, your intention.

But your explanation does not particularly dispute my initial interpretation.
I don't find the conclusion that "Israeli implies biased" to be much
different than "Israeli implies bad, unreliable, a liar, or something of that
nature."

Either conclusion represents a sweeping (and obviously derogatory)
generalization.


I don't have any problem with you claiming that Mr. Keren is biased.  (I don't
know whether it's true or not, but I don't have a problem with you making 
your case.)

I do have a problem with your suggestion that there is somehow a causal link
between Mr. Keren's alleged bias and his Israeli citizenship.


-- 
J. S. Greenfield                                         greeny@top.cis.syr.edu
(I like to put 'greeny' here, 
but my d*mn system wants a 
*real* name!)                        "What's the difference between an orange?"
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