HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stamer@fang.att.com (Greg Stamer)
Subject: Svea 123R (was: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite Int'l. vs. X-)
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:00:37 GMT

>Before getting this stove, I managed for 15 years with a SVEA 123. Looking
>back, I wonder why I put up with it - always tempermental about lighting,
>always requiring cleaning and with only two speeds (ROAR and OFF).

Okay Bob, you're bordering on blasphemy here! :^)

I have been using a Svea 123R for 14 years.  It it easy to prime, has good
flame control, simmers very well and has never let me down.  Due to the
internal cleaning needle, I have never had to disassemble the stove for
cleaning.  The exterior of the stove will get sooty due to priming but
since the body of the stove is covered by the windscreen your gear will
not be soiled.  The stove IS noisy (the flame control is more aptly called
the volume control) and it is amazing how starkly quiet the backcountry
seems when the stove is turned off!

Priming the stove is not a mystery; I prefer the following method:
Remove the windscreen and the flame adjustment key, fill the priming
cup (shallow ring atop the fuel tank) with FIRE PASTE and light.  Before
the flame dies, replace key, turn the key to the left and the stove will
roar to life, lit from the flames in the priming cup.  Replace the
windscreen.  No sputtering, no flare ups.  If you don't like this method,
Colin Fletcher gives many alternatives in the Complete Walker III.  If you
are concerned with the bulk of a tube of fire paste, pack some into a 35mm
film can.  One can is good for about a week of use.  Most people who
complain of hard priming simply splash the stove with gas and stand back.
Using gas or alcohol instead of fire paste may require priming several
times before enough pressure is generated and lack of pressure will cause
the stove to spit and sputter.
                                                \   O
                                       \__________\/ )__________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg Stamer          Florida Sea Kayaking Association / Coconut Kayakers
stamer@fang.att.com 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas
Keywords: alpine lakes - where?
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:22:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center

dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey) writes:

>> Do you also have issue with those who are hardier and can make better
>> time on foot than the average hiker?

>Yes, these types bother me to no end :^)  And it's even worse if they
>happily stroll down the path with an 80 lb pack while strumming away at
>a guitar.

What, you've something against my playing? ;^)
From: chris@cdc.hp.com (Chris Schiller)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: accessible = !wilderness
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:10:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bt949p.3GF
Distribution: usa
Organization: HP California Design Center, Santa Clara, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Allen Sanderson (allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu) wrote:
> In article AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
> >There is also an extreme position that is rarely considered:  Total
> >closure of an area to all humans, even backpackers and day hikers.
> >I'm actually in favor of this, at least for finite periods.
> 
> They actually do this in some areas under the label of research
> natural area.  The only people who legally have access to these areas
> are researchers.  There is one that bourders SLC.  The only time they
> open it up is during deer season and for good reason.  The fences are
> so high that deer can not get in nor out in most places.  Thus the
> deer population has to be keep in check or the natural grass land in
> the area would be destroyed.  For once, man as a preditor is good.
> 
> Allen R. Sanderson


Whoa, hold on a minute.  I don't mean to flame, but it sounds like
just another case of humans screwing with an ecosystem, and then
trying to steer it back to what humans think is an equalibrium.
If there were not fences, then the deer could expand/migrate as
needed.  In addition, if all of the predators had not been destroyed
or fenced out, there would never have been a "problem".  As usual,
man the controller is bad.

Chris Schiller
chris@cdc.hp.com
From: fitzhugh@hplred.HP.COM (Andrew Fitzhugh)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:00:10 GMT
Subject: Re: WAS: Mono Pass...     BEARS! (Oh my!)
Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs, Palo Alto CA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

/ hplred:rec.backcountry / donehoo@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Doyle Donehoo) /  4:45 pm  Aug 18, 1992 /
In places where there are LOTS of backpackers/hikers, there will be bears:

> We heard alot about other people having their food taken by bears, but
> I have come to the conclusion they lost their food because they made
> it easy for the bears.

I met a guy at Muir Pass this past week who had been down through
Lyell Canyon.  While discussing how to secure the food for the night,
a bear approached him and his companion and offered to relieve them of
it.  They fended off the bear by pelting it with rocks.  There were
several other campsites nearby, and they could hear the bear making
its rounds, eventually returning to their own site a few more times
that night.

I've heard several people say they fought off bears by throwing stones
-- is that really such a good idea?  In a place with no suitable trees
for hanging, it seems the only alternative is to stow it some distance
from the tent, listen for a bear, and fight it off if one comes.  Not
an experience I look forward to.

Andrew Fitzhugh
Computational Color Reproduction
HP Laboratories
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel)
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite Int'l. vs. X-GK II
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY, 12866
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 12:05:02 GMT

Sorry.... I should have said:

In article <1992Aug16.115826.18120@scott.skidmore.edu> pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel) writes:
>before putting back in the pack (so,  I'm neat).  Whisperlight doesn't
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                  should be "Peak I"

>need to be primed.  Conclusion....  it's weight and volume vs.


-- 
Pierre von Kaenel	| Skidmore College	     | pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu
Math & CS Dept.		| Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 | (518)584-5000 Ext 2391
When asked his position on euthanasia, our local state rep. responded:
"I support youth all over the world."
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Moose vs. Elk
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:05:13 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu writes:
>Ya know, I've pretty much solved this perplexing and effort-full
>problem of knowing the names of things by using a simpler system.
>
>When someone asks what they call 'that flower over there', I 
>identify it as a 'pretty blue flower'.  When they ask what they
>call that 'bird way up there in the sky', I identify it as a
>'pretty neat big (or little) bird'.  I'm happy.   :)


While in Ecuadorian Amazon my friend Nancy pointed to a plant and
asked an older native indian man who was out hiking with us what it
was.  He said it was a flower.  Nancy asked what kind of flower ? He
said it was a red one. (we have pictures and can prove that it was a
red flower but we still don't know which one ;-).

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Pucky lads, a wee bit over their heads"

	Doug Scott after encountering two climbers
	on Denali suffering from exposure.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: tu@mcs-ipc-3.Stanford.EDU (Samson Tu)
Subject: Confusing names (was Re: Mammoth area hot springs?)
Organization: Stanford School of Medicine
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 19:07:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.180139.7807@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> dsc@gemini.tmc.edu (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.151911.29380@newshost.lanl.gov> mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug16.182652.3453@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> rw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Rich Washington) writes:
>>>
>>
>>
>>I don't mean to flame Rich for this case; after all, he did try, by
>>restricting distribution to California (or at least trying), where the term
>>"Mammoth" is less ambiguous.  However, the current Usenet software seems to
>>be ignoring distribution limits; we in New Mexico, which assuredly is not part
>>of California :-), seem to get all sorts of postings that we shouldn't get if
>>the distribution system works properly.  The right solution is clearly to get
>
>For that matter, it even made it out to Maryland, USA.

Even worse than imprecise place names are abbreviations and acronyms
that are meaningless outside the locality of the poster. Maybe we
should have a contest to see what creative suggestions people can come
up with for acronyms like SF, SLC, NM, U of A, etc. 

Please remember the readers of this group can't always divine your acronyms.

Samson
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: No dogs in Natl Parks
From: wallich@iti.org (Kenneth Wallich)
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:51:50 GMT

rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:

>>Well, my wife and I had a great time in Colo. backcountry.  We stayed mostly
>>in the forests, Pike Roosevelt, etc and now I know why.  We went to RMNP
>>and they did not allow dogs in the backcountry!!! I think that sucks!  [...]

I'm also a dog owner.  I've got 3 large, and very well behaved dogs.
They are, in general, better behaved that most of the children *and*
adults I've met in the the backcountry.  

I've also met a lot of irresponsible morons who running around with no
love or respect for their surroundings.  The seem to feel that nature
is there to be exploited, uprooted, and tossed about as they, the
obviously dominate species, sees fit.  Nothing new there.  We've been
raping and pillaging long enough that most folks are numb to it.  Now
consider these people trotting off with their undisciplined animals
who have never seen a vet in their life.  I think I'd rather stay
home and watch T.V.

Yes, I would often like to bring my animals with me, and I know that
they would not, in general, be a detriment to their surroundings.
There are places where I can in fact bring them, some of which are
deep in the backcountry.  The parks that are often popular, and
attract both those who love their surroundings, and those who are
oblivious to them do need to restrict and protect themselves.  All in
all, I think denying dogs is a step in the right direction for such
places.


--
Ken Wallich
wallich@ncd.com  
ken@wallich.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ssnyder@sunai.er.usgs.gov (Steve Snyder)
Subject: Re: Replacing metal Thermarest valves
Organization: Why?
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:20:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.095523.13974@hellgate.utah.edu> allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson) writes:
>
>In articlewalvdrk@research.ptt.nl (Kees van der Wal +31 70 332 6295) writes:
>
>>What's the advantage of the plastic version?
>
>Your lips and tongue won't freeze to the metal valve when its cold.  Also
>the plastic ones ares easier to close when your mouth is on the valve.
>
And a plastic one won't freeze in the closed mode like a metal will. 
It's also easier to handle since it's larger.
I just wish I knew you could get one for free from them. I ended up
buying one, though it only costs a couple of bucks.

Steve   This disclaimer will self-destruct in 5 seconds.
From: burris@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jim Burris)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: light weight coffee makers - (was: totally obnoxious camper w/o my espresso)
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:57:13 GMT
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center

In article <1992Aug12.164700.29244@midway.uchicago.edu> rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>Of course, all this interesting discussion aside, there is only one
>TRUE and APPROVED (tm) way to make coffee in the backwoods. All
>you need is a kettle (like the Trangia one), which you need for
>boiling water anyway.
>
>Get some coarsely ground coffee (some good stuff, like colombian
>or Kenya AA, not robusta crap like Maxwell House).  I mean really
>coarsely ground.  In Sweden the right stuff is called "Kok Kaffee"
>(for boiling).    Through the grounds in the kettle with 
>water, and bring to a boil (Don't boil for long).  Take it off,
>and let it stop boiling.  Throw in a small splash of cold water
>to settle the grounds and pour off carefully into your cup.
>
   I've read somewhere that drinking boiled coffee increases your risk of
cancer; filtered coffee reduces or eliminates this hazard. Sorry, this info was
taken from the bulletin board at our company health club. I have no other
references, and no way to judge the validity of this claim. 

Jim Burris   "One shoe or two"
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: Peter Beckman <beckman@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: light weight coffee makers - (was: totally obnoxious camper w/o my espresso)
Keywords: nn
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:57:00 -0500

In article <22188@venera.isi.edu> sondeen@isi.edu (Jeff Sondeen) writes:
>Does anyone know of a manual or battery-operated coffee bean grinder
>available by mail order?  (for backpacking).

I hate to advertise on the net, but I'll sell you a completely organic
solution, for $5.00.  Of course shipping and handling for a slab of
stone and heavy rock will be extra.  Batteries? Gears? .... snicker
-Pete
From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Frequency of Bear Encounters on Hiking Trails
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:30:51 GMT
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech

I think one needs to be up early.  I had my first and only
bear encounter in Sequoia before 7am when I was already a couple
of miles into the backcountry.  Came across a coyote off-trail near a
Lake arrowhead campground yesterday around the same time.  Seldom
seen anything large later on.

Could be a form of wilderness couch potato test :-)

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
From: ron@cup.hp.com (Ron Gould)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Nalgene bottle lids (need source)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:13:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

I've gotten replacement lids at REI.  Could probably mail order from
REI also.


Ron Gould
From: duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: accessible = !wilderness (WAS Re: Oregon Wallowas
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:09:14 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

>
>  "Everyone and everything should be banned from the
>   *wilderness* except the small number of people who are
>   willing and able to get there the hard way, and their
>   simple gear.  If impact increases, access should be made
>   more difficult, and more restrictions placed on gear."

How about designating some areas as off limits to all human entry?  In my
opinion, there is no wilderness area in the lower 48 remote enough that it
can't get "loved to death" by hikers and overnight campers.

An entry ban could be temporary, with the intent of allowing the area heal
and evolve for 5 or 10 or ?? years, and then letting people back in to see
what has changed ...  fires, floods, new species, etc.  Sort of like a
time capsule (do not open until 2010).

Or the entry ban could be more permanent, an investment in the future,
if you will.  In all likelihood, some areas would be opened up within 100
years, but the value of the areas to future generations would
be beyond our imagination.  Take the NPS as an example.  When
Yellowstone was set aside, most people probably found it preposterous that
this remote area needed protection.  Today I'm pretty glad that Yellowstone
exists, even with all the mega-50-foot-motor-home-with-satellite-dish
visitors and people chasing elk, bison, and grizzlies with their cameras.

This brings up a few problems.  You can't patrol an area that is
closed to humans, so how would you enforce the ban without something akin
to the Berlin Wall.  Also, how would you choose which area(s) to close down.
There would be thousands of people to lobby against the closure of most any
park, wilderness area, or forest.

I certainly don't expect anything like this to happen.  But I, for one,
would feel a little bit better just knowing that there were places
out there where people weren't feeding the chipmunks peanuts, leaving
Skittles wrappers on the ground, and drilling bolts into granite walls.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel)
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite (how about Peak I)
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY, 12866
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:33:17 GMT

In article <3070031@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> bingham@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (David Bingham) writes:
>  I too have to put in my two cents worth. I bought a Whisperlite because
>the size and weight seemed attractive. I found the flame control to be a
>MAJOR pain. I couldn't get a decent simmer out of it to save my life. It
>seemed to blow out when pressure ran low as well.
>  I decedided to pony up another $50 for a Peak I and now I would never go
>back. It turns out that the only real issue, IMHO, is the bulk. What is
>apparently an advantage in the Whisperlite isn't really the case. The
>weight saved is made up for by needing to bring the fuel bottle. 

Unfortunately, I put my old Peak I aside and bought a Whisperlite for
size and weight.  I've read a number of posts concerning the built-in
Peak I fuel resevoir.  I always brought a fuel bottle with my Peak I
and refilled at each lighting.  Never thought about how long it could
go on one full fill.  Does anyone know how many hours at average flame
the Peak I will go?  Do I really need to bring a fuel bottle for a 3
night trip?



-- 
Pierre von Kaenel	| Skidmore College	     | pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu
Math & CS Dept.		| Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 | (518)584-5000 Ext 2391
When asked his position on euthanasia, our local state rep. responded:
"I support youth all over the world."
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: accessible = !wilderness
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:13:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <1992Aug17.202911.1069@javelin.sim.es.com>,
by biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel):
>  
> Here in Utah there are many sparsely populated areas, and large
> tracts of wilderness. Some areas under consideration for wilderness
> status are accessible via existing jeep trails.

Take a look at the Mount Evans Wilderness Area in Colorado.  This has
a paved state highway that cuts right to the very center of the area
(the summit of Mount Evans).  The wilderness area covers a large area
in all directions from the summit, with the exception of a narrow corridor
along the highway right-of-way.  Other than the Abyss Lake area, none of
this was designated as wilderness 20 years ago.

The Lost Creek Wilderness in Colorado also includes an old mining road,
a road that now serves as part of the main loop of trails that
circumnavigates the core of the area.  15 years ago, this wasn't
officially a wilderness area, just a wild area, and I think the old
road was part of the reason.  The old road is now completely inside the
wilderness, and off limits to motor vehicles.

Of course, if the folks from the "Wise Use" movement had their way, we'd
have logging roads in all of our wilderness areas so that mature and dead
trees could be removed in order to "prevent forest fires and promote
development of new biomass in order to reduce the threat posed by
greenhouse gasses."  Danny Quayle seems to be spouting the "Wise Use"
line quite a bit these days, so this is a real threat!

				Doug Jones
				jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu (Dania M. Egedi)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite Int'l. vs. X-GK II
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:50:11 GMT


In article <1992Aug19.204634.13793@lsil.com>, gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne) writes:
|> Yes, it is damn near impossible to simmer with a Whisperlite

I keep seeing this statement, but I don't get it.  I used a Whisperlite for 5 1/2 
out of the 6 months that I was on the A.T. last year (switched from an Optimus
because of the weight), and I never had a problem simmering.  I simmered Lipton
noodles, fried hash browns, and even baked biscuits (all in my frying pan) without 
a problem.  The only 'trick' to it is to make sure that you have a high pressure 
in the bottle, and turn it down low.  Yes, keep an ear out for it; it requires
adjustment every now and then.

 - Dania  (Lightweight '91)



PS.  ZEDBUD - I saw your posting and sent mail, but haven't gotten a reply.
Are you out there?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dania Egedi, IRCS Research Programmer		egedi@ahwenasa.cis.upenn.edu
Room 400C, 3401 Walnut St.			work:  (215) 898-0365
Philadelphia, PA 19104

"One sign of an impending nervous breakdown is the belief 
that one's work is terribly important"
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jmcc@buggs.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum)
Subject: backcountry reading material
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 18:49:30 GMT


  Over the past 2.5 years of reading rec.backcountry I have clipped and
snipped and cut and pasted all the references to interesting backcountry
books and reading materail as they were posted.  My list is a highly 
unorganized collection of books, ranging from historical adventures to 
cookbooks to political philosophy.
  If you have such a list and are interested in exchanging, or are just
interested, let me know.  If I get enough interest, perhaps I'll post it.
  Perhaps it's time again to restart the thread of 'What's your favorite
backcountry reading material?'

John McCollum
Texas Instruments
Internet: jmcc@ticipa.mtc.ti.com
TI MSG:   JMCC
Voice:    (214) 917-2201
FAX:      (214) 917-2939
From: nola@cats.ucsc.edu (Nola Van Vugt)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: light weight coffee makers - (was: totally obnoxious camper w/o
Keywords: nn
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:44:31 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


>
>> Does anyone know of a manual or battery-operated coffee bean grinder
>> available by mail order?  (for backpacking).

About 20 years ago I remember Freed, Teller and Freed on Polk Street
in San Francisco had a fine small manual coffee grinder that a lot of
people used to buy for backpacking.  Not me.  I chose to take up that
space in my pack with a carefully wrapped crystal brandy snifter.
Fine old cognac deserves better than a Sierra cup.  YMMV.
-nvv
From: sawtelle@mariposa.stonecutter.com (Don Sawtelle)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: heavy boot heel separating (how to repair?)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 09:25:58 PDT
Organization: Stonecutter Software
Reply-To: sawtelle@stonecutter.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4

> In my heavy Raichle boots, the 3/8 inch of springier red rubber in the
> heel is separating where it is glued to the sole layer above.
> 
> If it's not something I can [repair] myself, does anyone have some advice for
> who I should get to repair them, and any info on how they will do it?

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question. I took the boots to a cobbler
who used glue and nails to reattach the heels. That seemed the most permanent
repair possible.

---
Don Sawtelle:Stonecutter Software:Mariposa, CA
sawtelle@stonecutter.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry