HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rrb@seas.smu.edu (Robert R. Bailey)
Subject: Re: damn tabs
Organization: School of Engineering and applied science; S.M.U.; Dallas, Tx
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 14:25:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.214249.20361@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.032729.19960@seas.smu.edu> rrb@seas.smu.edu (Robert R. Bailey) writes:
>>I use a macro to expand tabs.  I use it frequently.
>>
>>:map T :%s/^I/    /g
>>
>WHat would happen if I had a file with
>a	b    
>aa	b
>aaa	b
>Between the last 'a' and the 'b' is a tab in every case.. Methinks
>your macro will make a mess.. to state it mildly.
>Or is there something particularly clever we're all missing?

I was simply trying to be brief with my reply.  So much for conciseness!

About 90% of what I use vi for is programming in C and Fortran.  The rest is
for writing text, for which I seldom use tabs.  For programming I find the
8-space tab way too much.  Imagine 6 levels of indentation at 8 spaces each.
48 spaces just to the beginning of the line! :(  So I :set ts=4 .
Then lines don't wrap around so much.  But if I print out the result; well,
yuck!!  So I need a way to convert tabs to the number of spaces that I like,
which is 4 and sometimes 2.

I do not like sitting around waiting for the shell to fork 'expand', or
whatever.  I've got better ways to spend my time.  Macros work almost
instantaneously, and I find for MY situation (not the perverse case
mentioned above) that :%s/^I/    /g  works quite well, thank you.  I do have
to fix a FEW straglers by hand.  It's not perfect, but it works better, at
least for me (I can only speak for me), than anything else I have run
across. :-)

If you have a better suggestion, I would like to know.
Thanks.

-- 
From: Bob Bailey = rrb@seas.smu.edu
From: cantor@star.enet.dec.com (Dave Cantor)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: damn tabs
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:12:49 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



In article <1992Oct15.073726.14690@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-), writes in response to article
<1992Oct14.191903.7876@netcom.com> sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller):
>A tabstop is just that.  It is intented to line up at a certain column.  It
>is not meant to be replaced by 4 or 8 spaces exactly.

Ian, you are confused between a tab stop and a tab character.  A tab stop
is just that; you are correct.  But the intent of the tab character is
dependent upon who is using it, what editor is in use with what modifications,
and what the final application is.

Tab characters, depending upon whether they are transmitted from a device
to the computer, stored in a file, or transmitted from the computer to
a device, can be used to:

   o  Make it LOOK like the next character is in a specific column (the next
      tab stop) on a screen display 
   o  Actually make the next character be in a specific column (the next tab
      stop) on a printed display 
   o  Cause enough spaces to be inserted to make the next character be in
      specific character position (cf. column) in a file
   o  Insert a specific, constant number of spaces into a file
   o  Insert a tab character into a file
   o  Cause cursor movement to a the next tab stop on the screen
   o  Cause cursor movement to the next field on the screen
   o  Cause physical typing element or carriage motion on a device
   o  Serve as a field separator

and probably many more purposes.

Most of these are mutually exclusive.  You cannot use a tab character to
mean all things to all persons and applications.  You need to use tab
characters as the application you are using demands they be used.  If you
are writing the application (including personalizing your editor), then
you can decide how they are to be used, but don't expect everyone else
to choose to use them the same way.

Distinction also needs to be made between the depression of the tab key on the
keyboard, and the existence of a byte with the code for a tab character in a
file.  (The original use of that code was to cause physical carriage (or
typing element) movement when sent to a printing device.)

We have all been throwing around the word 'tab' rather loosely and
imprecisely.  We'd be better off talking about the tab key, a tab character,
and a tab stop.

Me?  I prefer never to put tab characters into a text file at all.  When
I'm editing a text file, the tab key causes enough spaces to be inserted
into the file so that the last space is the (8*n)th character in the record.

-- --
 Dave C.                          cantor@star.enet.dec.com
 Digital Equipment Corp., Nashua, NH  03062, USA
  The views expressed herein are my own, except where attributed to 
  someone else.  They are neither the opinion of, nor the responsibility 
  of, Digital Equipment Corporation.
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: soh@tmp_ip_003.trl.OZ.AU (Soh Kam Hung)
Subject: Re: Paragraphs and vi
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:43:09 GMT

frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-) writes:

>Unfortunately fmt is very limited and it may not be desired to format the 
>whole paragraph to 78 columns only....

Our version of fmt (SunOS 4.1.2) has an option to vary the length of a
formatted line.

Regards,

---
Soh Kam Hung, Network Management Research,     | h.soh@trl.oz.au  
TRL, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia | +61 3 253 6638
Xref: sparky comp.editors:2506 comp.mail.elm:2770
From: billd@informix.com (William Daul)
Newsgroups: comp.editors,comp.mail.elm
Subject: sorry...Running Ispell under Elm (please point me in the right direction)
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:48:58 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Originator: billd@cheetah

Help...I know I have seen this discussed a gadzillion times.  I never
thought I would care...NOT.  Now I do.  How do I run Ispell under VI.


Thanks,  --Bill
-- 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 William Daul             Advanced Support      INFORMIX SOFTWARE INC.
 4100 Bohannon Dr.        (415) 926-6488 - wk
 Menlo Park, CA. 94025    uunet!infmx!billd  or  billd@informix.com
From: jim@n5ial.chi.il.us (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Vi Formating without using fmt 
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 21:56:16 GMT
Organization: Me? Organized? Hah! :-)

In article <1992Oct4.183159.851@mlb.semi.harris.com>
rliles@spuds.mlb.semi.harris.com writes:

> 2. How do you justify text for both the left AND right margins without
>    running through fmt?

not sure what your first question was after, but I do have a few
comments on this one....

if you're looking for something to do right-justification, you need to
use something that offers proportional spacing (meaning, plain ASCII
terminals are out).  otherwise, you end up inserting a lot of blank
spaces between words that don't belong, and the text gets very tough
on the reader.

I suggest that you look into something like TeX for this.  in case
you're not familiar with TeX (pronounced like ``tech''), it's a
typesetting system written by Donald Knuth, and is freely available
for lots of different computers.  TeX does a wonderful job with
formatting paragraphs --- it makes minute changes to the spacing between
words and letters, to the point that even if you look *VERY* close, you
still aren't going to notice....

but short of something like that, the general rule is that you don't
do right-justification, period.  this isn't just my preference --- it's
what I've been taught for years.

hope this helps.
   --jim

--
#include <std_disclaimer.h>                                 73 DE N5IAL (/9)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET:  jim@n5ial.chi.il.us  |  grahj@gagme.chi.il.us  |  j.graham@ieee.org
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Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rice@ttd.teradyne.com
Subject: VI explained
Organization: Teradyne Inc., Telecommunications Division
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 14:16:40 GMT

After struggling through yet another VI session I have come to the following
conclusion:

VI IS THE PRODUCT OF A DRUG CRAZED 1960s HIPPIE PROGRAMMER designed to extract

revenge on the entire UNIX community for unknown reasons forever.......



-- 
   John Rice        K9IJ     |  "Did I say that ?" I must have, but It was
                             |   MY opinion only, no one else's...Especially
                             |   Not my Employer's....
   rice@ttd.teradyne.com     |   Purveyor of Miracles,Magic and Sleight-of-hand
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-)
Subject: Re: VI explained
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 05:03:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.093252.1@ttd.teradyne.com> rice@ttd.teradyne.com writes:
>After struggling through yet another VI session I have come to the following
>conclusion:
>
>VI IS THE PRODUCT OF A DRUG CRAZED 1960s HIPPIE PROGRAMMER designed to extract
>
>revenge on the entire UNIX community for unknown reasons forever.......

Actually it's not quite as complicated as all that.
Once upon it was common to see two things.
1. Terminals that didn't handle full screen cursor addressing, clearing,
   etc..
2. People who talked to their computers at 75 or 300 baud.

People still wanted to be able to modify they contents of a file on their
unix monsters so they created 'ex'.  As you might know, ex is not a 
full screen editor.  It can only see one line at a time but is reasonably
powerful and believe it or not is still in use.  Granted, programming
muds interactively is a bit bizaare but ex does the job.

At some point some wimpy person wanted to see more than one line of
text on their screen.  Since everyone was using ex aready the logical 
extention was to create a full screen version of ex.  Call it 
visual or vi.  I'm sure there are others here who would have a much
firmer grasp on some of the decisions made when making vi, but it's
an easy speculation.  People still want to be able to use ex commands
in vi and indeed they still do.  

Vi was created with two modes of operation which seems to be the big stumbling 
block for people brought up on word processors.  Unix files and formats don't 
lend themselves well to editing with word processors.  Personally I like the
dual mode of vi.  It gives me more features without ESC META ALT CONTROL SHIFT  
sort of mangling.

To be fair, EMACS is great for the people who like word processors,
to read their mail, to read their news, walk the dog, and take out the
trash, from their unix EDITOR.  When I first got into unix I tried
both vi and emacs, and the deciding factors were:

1. vi uses less memory and CPU.  It's just an editor, not a way of life.
2. emacs used to redraw the screen when it tried to scroll the screen.
   at 2400 baud this is no fun at all.
3. emacs had too many features unrelated to the processing of text files
   and what I wanted to do more than anything else at the time was 
   process text files.

There are other reasons I've sticked with vi and vi derivatives but I've
said enough.   Please don't turn this into the Holy Wars.  I'm simply
expressing my choice of an editor and to try to explain where vi came from.
BTW, if someone has better facts on vi, (and I know they do) please 
feel free to correct me.

	ian

P.S. I know gnuemacs, upemacs and braindead stupid VMS emacs in my 
	job so I've not made an uninformed choice.
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com (DWT)
Subject: sourcing $HOME/.exrc twice
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 04:47:43 GMT
Organization: Contributor Account at ddsw1, Chicago, Illinois  60657

Is there a way to have both $HOME/.exrc and ./.exrc read if I'm not in $HOME
yet for $HOME/.exrc to be sourced only once if I am?

Here on ddsw1 I like to have a few special vi setups for what I do in various
directories, so I have :set exrc turned on in my $HOME/.exrc and additional
set or map commands in .exrc files in other directories.  It's worked out
very well.

But today when I tried to do the same on gagme (another public site where I'm
a user), it ran into difficulty if I fired up vi in my $HOME.  vi then read
$HOME/.exrc twice and complained about too much macro text (effectively
preventing me from adding any temporary mappings or abbreviations without
first giving some up).  Maybe the same thing happens on ddsw1 but there is
enough RAM space here to allow a double reading of my $HOME/.exrc (which is
longer than the one I have on gagme); is there a way to tell?

David W. Tamkin   Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com    CompuServe: 73720,1570    MCI Mail: 426-1818
From: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis")
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: damn tabs
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:35:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: pacific.DAVIS.92Oct15113517
	<1992Oct7.214249.20361@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
	<1992Oct14.191903.7876@netcom.com>
	<1992Oct15.073726.14690@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
	<1992Oct15.111906.28156@eua.ericsson.se>
Reply-To: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu  (John E. Davis)
Organization: "Dept. of Physics, The Ohio State University"

In article <1992Oct15.111906.28156@eua.ericsson.se> rv@erix.ericsson.se
(Robert Virding) writes: 

   Why not just use a sensible editor (emacs) which can distinguish
   between pressing the TAB key and putting a TAB character in a file?
   The problem goes away then.


I guess those of us who have used EMACS and appreciate the fact that the tab
key is bound to *-indent-line do have a hard time understanding this
problem...

As I understand it, TAB = 8 is the standard, i.e., most devices support this
by default.  However, many vi (?) programmers use the tab key for indenting
code so they change the tab stops to 3 or 4.  Then the problem arises when
they print their code....

Why not do the following:

Create a function:

8 =TAB               ;; tabs set at 8 ccolumns
[MYTAB] 4 =MYTAB     ;; a new global variable

( [c goal] what_column =c
  c 1 -
  MYTAB / 1 +          ;; compute the next MYTAB column tab stop and find out
  MYTAB * 1 + =goal    ;; how much whitespace is necessary to go there
  goal c - whitespace  ;; using 8 column tabs if it is more efficient.
) my_tab_cmd

"my_tab_cmd"  "^I" setkey  ;; function bound to tab key

There, even though TAB stops are set at 8 columns, this function binds the TAB
key (^I) to simulate 4 (MYTAB) column tabs.

I have written this for the JED editor but I assume something is possible for
vi.

By the way, the JED editor will be released this weekend.  I will post an
announcement on this group.
--
     _____________
#___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________
#
# internet: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu
#   bitnet: davis@ohstpy
#   office: 617-735-6746
#
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-)
Subject: Re: Vi help needed
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 18:29:14 GMT

In article <"16177.Thu.Oct.8.06:25:10.1992"@bnr.ca> nickp@BNR.CA ("Nick  Pitfield", N.T.) writes:
>
>Does anybody know a sure-fire way of preventing shelling out to Unix ? I tried
>mapping ':' to ESC but vi complained that this was too dangerous to map....

It's much worse than you think.  There are more devious ways to shell out
of vi.  Also, all maps and abbreviations can be easily modified. 
The only sure way I believe would be to hack the vi source code so that it 
doesn't understand the ! commands.  Might want to get rid of :r and a 
few others while your at it.  Also it sounds like you have a problem with
the login shell.  Again, the only way to make it secure is to find a secure
shell or modify the ones at your disposal.  I suspect there are more
secure shells around that you might be able to pick up.  Check around.
>
>
>	Nick Pitfield.
>

	ian
From: nomann@diku.dk (Ole Nomann Thomsen)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Defining macros in .exrc ?
Date: 16 Oct 92 11:14:15 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

1. How can I insert lines from .exrc ?
2. How can I define macros from .exrc ?

Rationale: I would like my .exrc to define some macros for me at each startup.
I figured I could do it by inserting lines into the file, and then
deleting them to a register (say a).  I tried this .exrc (from memory):

---------------
ir!!date^[
1G
"add
______________

(and lots of variants)
to 1. Insert the line "!!date" in my file, and 
   2. Delete the line to register a.

But i can't even accomplish 1. let alone 2.  Please help.  Thanks, Ole.
-- 
No .sig, since it has been warlorded at least twice (why tempt fate).
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: damn tabs
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 02:03:39 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of rrb@seas.smu.edu (Robert R. Bailey):
:for writing text, for which I seldom use tabs.  For programming I find the
:8-space tab way too much.  Imagine 6 levels of indentation at 8 spaces each.
:48 spaces just to the beginning of the line! :(  So I :set ts=4 .

Evil.  Set sw=4 instead, and train yourself to use ^T or make a map.

:yuck!!  So I need a way to convert tabs to the number of spaces that I like,
:which is 4 and sometimes 2.

Which is why it is evil.

:I do not like sitting around waiting for the shell to fork 'expand', or
:whatever.  I've got better ways to spend my time.  

Are you working on an impoverished system?  What is this "waiting around"
thing you're talking about?  I bet you "waste" more time between typing
one shell command and the next.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist


Emacs is a fine editor, but I still prefer vi. -me
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: rv@erix.ericsson.se (Robert Virding)
Subject: Re: damn tabs
Nntp-Posting-User: rv
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 11:19:06 GMT

...
Lots of discussion on VI and tabs
...

Why not just use a sensible editor (emacs) which can distinguish
between pressing the TAB key and putting a TAB character in a file?
The problem goes away then.

Robert
From: imc@comlab.ox.ac.uk (Ian Collier)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: Paragraphs and vi
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:42:27 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Computing Laboratory, UK
X-Local-Date: Wednesday, 7th October 1992 at 1:42pm BST
Originator: imc@msc2.comlab

In article <1992Oct6.183936.22069@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-) wrote:
>                     The best way to avoid this problem all together
>is to put 'stty', 'tset', 'biff', and 'mesg' commands in your .login
>file which is only read when you login.  Assuming one is using a
>csh variant .cshrc is loaded every time you execute a command unless
>the '-f' flag of csh is used.

But some people might want "stty" or "tset" to be executed in every
(interactive) shell.  In a window system, for instance, only a small number
of the terminal characteristics are inherited from the console (OK, I admit
that you wouldn't often want to change the other ones).

Ian Collier
Ian.Collier@prg.ox.ac.uk | imc@ecs.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.editors
From: david@csource.oz.au (david nugent)
Newsgroups: comp.editors
Subject: Re: CRISP information wanted
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 19:23:49 +1000
Reply-To: david@csource.oz.au
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia

feoh@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Chris Patti) writes:

> Hello, I've recently acquired CRISP 2.1e and am trying to set it up on our
> system V 3.2 systems. I'm encountering some serious problems that I was
> wondering if anyone had solutions to..

2.2 is the latest shareware released version; it can be found on
wuarchive.wustl.edu under /mirrors/unix-c (somewhere under that).

It is a lot more stable that 2.1e was.  From all reports, the commercial
release version 3.0 is even better, with all known 2.2 bugs fixed, a proper
native X mode and many other things besides.

> Firstly: The instructions given contradict each other repeatedly regarding
> SCO SysV3.2 setup/installation. one set says to use mapkey and mapstr, anothe
> set says to use kbd (which won't even compile under sco, and when I compiled
> it on another system and dragged the binary file over, it complained about an
> invalid IOCTL call!) but this doesn't work..

It is probably all outdated.  SCO have changed their OS a lot.


> I've tried dragging the compiled SCO binaries over to an AT*T system, which
> works.. somewhat, however the screen handling is totally fouled up (highlight
> obscure the characters they're supposed to be highlighting, etc) ..

Yeah, this was fixed in 2.2


> We have tried myriad different configurations and tweaks, and none of them
> appear to work for AT*T or SCO system V 3.2 systems.

I had 2.2 running on ISC 3.2 for quite a while, and I liked it.


> Also, does anyone know how/where / from whom to get the commercial version of
> CRISP? My boss (whom this is for) has expressed interest in buyig a version 
> if it would provide good solid support across all platforms...

Send mail to rohit@uunet.uu.net for information.


david


..............................................................................
david nugent          Public Access Usenet      "Only Nixon could go to China"
david@csource.oz.au     +61-3-792-3507                    - old Vulcan proverb
3:632/400@fidonet, 58:4100/1@intlnet, 199:4242/5@rainbownet, 33:300/6@admin
PO Box 260, Endeavour Hills, Victoria, Australia, 3802.
Xref: sparky comp.editors:2491 comp.sys.mac.misc:17672 comp.sys.mac.programmer:16788 comp.sys.mac.wanted:9398
From: marc@carlyle.com (Marc Salomon)
Newsgroups: comp.editors,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.wanted
Subject: Re: good vi editor for the mac
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:59:00 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: Carlyle Systems, Inc., San Mateo, CA.

this is a test
Xref: sparky comp.editors:2507 comp.lang.misc:3247
From: rajiva@sunny.Eng.Sun.COM (Rajiv Agrawal 415 336-3114)
Newsgroups: comp.editors,comp.lang.misc
Subject: Question about handling of Up/Down Arrow keys
Date: 14 Oct 1992 17:30:00 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: rajiva@sunny.Eng.Sun.COM (Rajiv Agrawal 415 336-3114)
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunny

Hello all:

        I am writing a utility for editing a number of user inputs
        - about 20 of them. It is a character based interface,
        in which I have inputs being given at every line. A down
        arrow key means, I should move to next line in to the input
        field and expect another input. If the input is entered, I
        expect a return or enter. I am using ASCII codes to read the
        data, and compare with carriage return ASCII value to take
        the next step. How should I handle up or down arrow keys?
         
        Is there a ASCII value associated with up and down arrow keys?
        If yes, what are the values? If not, how do I handle this?

        An example of the input looks like:

        Parameter        Current Value          New Value
        -------------------------------------------------
        No of Persons       20                   _______ 
        No of days          14                   _______
        .
        .
        .
        -------------------------------------------------
        The new values are entered by the user. If he presses the 
        down arrow, the default value is taken. 

        Any help will be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Rajiv