From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Subject: Re: Americans on English schools in Quebec (Was: Quebec)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:32:13 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 8605

From article <1992Nov17.221549.15120@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, by mousseau@paun02.NOHOST.NODOMAIN (Normand Mousseau):
> 
> In article <1992Nov16.101432.5291@spxtech.qc.ca>, steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
> 
> |> 
> |> From article <1992Nov14.201820.20492@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, by mousseau@paun02.pa.msu.edu (Normand Mousseau):
> 
> |> 
> |> They also have officials dragging businesses through the courts for not
> |> obeying notices to tear down their "offensive" English commercial signs.
> |> 
> 	Ils ne font que respecter la loi.  Mais attention, le nombre de poursuites est petit. 
> 

Roughly translated:-   :-)
The number of victims of this particular law is small.

> |> There is another office whose work is to find ways to replace English
> |> place names with French ones (we've discussed that one before).
> |> 
> 
> 	Je ne sais pas jusqu'a quel point cette affirmation est vraie, mais
> il est certain que je ne supporte pas un tel travail.  Si historiquement un
> endroit porte un nom anglais, je ne vois aucune raison pour le changer.
> 

We appear to agree to some extent on this one. I don't have the relevant
statistics, or the inclination, to go into it any further.

> 
> |> There is also an office responsible for determining the "eligibilty" of
> |> children for instruction in English.
> 
> 	La encore, ils ne font que leur travail.  J'ai deja explique en
> long et en large pourquoi je supporte cette loi et pourquoi elle ne m'apparait pas du tout violer les droits individuels.
> 

Perhaps Normand doesn't know what "les droits individuels" means.

> 
> |> English language films are permitted in Quebec for a limited period until
> |> a French dubbed sound track version is available (I think - correct me if
> |> i'm wrong).
> |> 
> 	D'accord, alors voici la correction.  Un film peut etre presente dans n'importe quelle langue au Quebec pourvu qu'il n'y ait pas plus de 5 ou six
> copies presentees en meme temps (ce qui permet au cinema repertoire de fonctionner sans probleme).  Toutefois, un film destine au marche quebecois populaire (i.e. jouant dans plus de 6 salles simultanement) a 6 semaines
> pour etre egalement disponible en version francaise (je ne suis pas
> sur si une version sous-titree est egalement valide).  Il s'agit simplement de s'assurer que les francophones unilingues ne soient pas frustrer du plaisir de decouvrir le cinema.  Cette loi permet en fait a Montreal d'avoir les memes primeurs que New York et Paris (i.e. les films francais apparaissent souvent en 
> meme temps a Paris et a Montreal alors qu'ils ne sont presentes que plus tard 
> a Toronto et a New York alors que les films americains apparaissent en general 
> quelques mois plus tard a Paris.)  Je crois que cette loi est equitable et
> qu'elle ne frustre personne.
> 

Given the details on this law, from several sources on the net today, I 
agree that this particular restriction does not seem to be unreasonable.
Original language 'viewings' would seem to be available for people who
don't like dubbbed versions, while at the same time providing incentives
(economic) to provide dubbed versions.

We would seem to be approaching agreement on this one.

> 
> |> It is believed to be politically beneficial for a prospective election
> |> candidate in Quebec to be seen to be anglo-bashing or exacting revenge
> |> on the English of today for the "sins" of the English of the past.
> |> 
>       L'oppose est vrai en Colombie Britannique, non?  Je crois qu'aujourd'hui, c'est beaucoup moins vrai qu'il y a dix ou quinze ans.
> 

Anyone from B.C. care to take that one up?

> |> The fact that there are some positive steps being taken to encourage the
> |> use of French in Quebec does not change the fact that there are some
> |> repressive measures also being taken that are undesirable and unacceptable
> |> in a civilized democracy (which Quebec is not :-( )
> |> 
> 
> 	Faut pas charrier!  Ce n'est pas parce que 12 000 enfants ne peuvent
> pas aller a l'ecole de leur choix que Quebec n'est pas une "civilized democracy".  Si c'est le cas, alors il n'existe pas (et n'a jamais existe) au
> monde une "civilized democracy" !
> 

To go into this one I think I should first define what was meant by the
term "civilized democracy".

A "democracy" is "political unit that has a democratic government"
                 (Websters 9th new collegiate, definition 2)

A "democracy" is "the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions
or privileges"  (Websters 9th new collegiate, definition 5)

"Civilized" means "characteristic of a state of civilization"
                (Websters 9th new collegiate)

"civilization" is "refinement of thought, manners or taste"
                (Websters 9th new collegiate, definition 3)

I said that there are some repressive measures also being taken in
Quebec.

To the extent that such measures do not show refinement of thought,
manners or taste; they are undesirable and unacceptable in a CIVILIZED
democracy.

To the extent that they indicate hereditary or arbitrary class
distinctions or privileges; they are undesirable and unacceptable
in a civilized DEMOCRACY.

Whether Quebec is actually a CIVILIZED DEMOCRACY or not I will leave
open for discussion. :-)

> |> >  Le Canada anglais doit en savoir quelque chose...  Aussi,
> |> > les mesure incitatrices ne sont malheureusement pas suffisante pour 
> |> > garantir l'integration des immigrants.
> |> 
> |> Please quote figures and source - I think you have been misinformed!
> |> 
> 
> 	Je n'ai pas de chiffres exacts mais Ryan a tout de meme amnistie
> plus  de 10 000 enfants qui etudiaient illegalement dans des ecoles de langue
> anglaise.  De meme, il y a eu des rapports recemment qui montraient qu'une majorite d'allophones (qui ne parlent ni francais ni anglais comme langue maternelle) preferait utiliser l'anglais plutot que le francais (il y a eu tout
> un tapage la-dessus dans les journaux il y a deux ou trois anas).
>

What do you mean by "integration"? - the forced integration into the French
community?

Why shouldn't English-speaking families be "integrated" into their own
English community in Quebec and, by learning French as a second language,
integrate into the larger Quebec society as a whole?

Perhaps one of the reasons that new immigrants prefer English over French
is that no laws try to force them to learn it? :-(
 
> |> > ne peuvent pas l'oublier si facilement.  De plus, il me faut revenir sur la
> |> > situation des minorites francophones hors-Quebec.  Il ne me souvient pas
> |> > avoir lu de complaintes a propos de leur situation sur ce reseau.
> |> 
> |> The Quebec government has not got a good a record for defending the rights of
> |> french canadians outside Quebec with regard to their demands for access to
> |> official language minority education for their children either !!!!! :-(
> |> 
> 
> 	Non, c'est vrai.  Mais leur situation est bien pire que celle de la
> minorite anglaise au Quebec et malgre tout, personne sur le reseau ne 
> mentionne ce probleme.  Il semble y avoir un enorment biais.
> 

Agreed.

This sounds a bit like the "English in Quebec are the best treated minority"
argument - which is NOT a justification for repressive measures, however.

> |> > Or, leur
> |> > situation est autrement plus catastrophique que celle de la minorite anglaise
> 
> |> Unfortunately, "protection" in Quebec seems to include trampling on individual
> |> rights and liberties. In this thread, by denying access to English schools for
> |> 12,000 or so English children living in Quebec:-(
> 
> 	C'est etrange, je n'ai jamais pense exige des cours en francais a
> Michigan State University ou j'etudie presentement.  J'ai bien peur que
> les americains me riraient simplement au nez et refuseraient de subventionner mon professeur.  Or c'est la meme chose au Quebec,

Is there a law preventing you from attending classes in French?

Are classes in French available?

> il n'y a donc pas de violation grave des droits individuels.
>  Si un chinois ne peut esperer voir le gouvernement du Quebec 
> lui offrir des ecoles chinoises pourquoi un immigrant britannique
> peut-il exiger des ecoles anglaises ?  Deux poids, deux mesures?

How many publicly funded Chinese schools are there in Quebec?

Apples and oranges again.


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