From: John Woods <eanv20@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 11 Nov 1992 00:07:14 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch) writes:

 How about when the victim says:  "Get the hell out of here!" and the Perp
 refuses?  Or when she tries to push him out the door, and he refuses?  She
 has many options besides submitting, if she doesn't want to.  If all he
 did was refuse to leave until she submitted, then I have no sympathy for
 her.  Lying is not a crime, not in these circumstances, anyway.  Call the
 police, or a friend, for chrissakes.

Wait a minute.  Are you really saying that you have no _sympathy_
here?  Or just that you feel the law hasn't been broken?  Don't
underestimated `non-physical' force.

 Women can only be equal when they are willing and able to stand up for
 themselves at the necessary times.  In the scenario Robert presents, the
 Victim, presumably a women, is not physically powerless, is not forced,
 but is unable to deal with the pressure from the Perp.  Whose fault is
 this?  The Perp, or the Victim?  The Perp may be an ass, a jerk, a total
 slimeball, but a rapist?  Come on.  Calling the Perp a rapist is basically
 saying that the Victim is not able to defend herself against this sort
 of mental pressure -- in effect, saying that the Victim is not the social,
 mental, or emotional equal of the Perp.

Yep.  What if she weren't?  For instance if she were a minor, mentally
challenged or as in the original case, from a culture which requires
women to be submissive?  Now, whatever you think about the latter, the
first two cases would be widely regarded as rape --- I think in the
U.S. you actually have an offence of statutory rape in the case of
minors --- they do not consent because they cannot consent.

 Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
 buyer being the Victim.  The Victim eventually lets the Perp, or car salesman,
 browbeat her into making a bad deal on a new car.  Does your opinion of
 who is at fault change?  Switch the genders around, in both scenarios.
 Does your opinion change now?

No.  No.  I have _sympathy_ for those who have been browbeaten into
buying a defective product or service.  Actually, in Britain
(especially in civilised Britain, also know as Scotland) this sort of
high pressure salesmanship _is_ against the law.

I think you have made a serious, but not uncommon, mistake resulting
>from ambiguity in the word `equal' which has been the bain of much
feminism.  At its most basic level, I take this to be shorthand for
`equal under the law' as regards housing, welfare, employment, health
etc. etc.  It doesn't mean `equal' in the strict logical or
mathematical sense of `identical'.  Do you feel that someone who knows
less about computers deserves less sympathy when ripped off by a
supplier?  Or less legal protection?  Do wimps command less sympathy
when beaten up, because they haven't learned karate?  Or less legal
protection? 

IMHO, the question of whether men and women will ever be equal in
athletic performance, or whether they are in artistic, intellectual
and creative matters is, while interesting, totally irrelevant to the
essential matter of `equality for all'.  For my $0.02, each sex is so
heterogenous that very little can or should be said about either in
general terms.  Whatever the truth of that, your argument seems to be
a definitive case of `ignoratio elenchi' --- a rebuttal of something
not actually asserted by us: _your_ definition of rape.  I'm sure you
won't find any mention of how much physical pressure is required to
make such a charge in any legal definition of `rape' (as opposed to,
say, `aggravated rape') in operation in any civilized country.


				J. H. Woods
-- 
 /******* cut here ******* John Woods ******* cut here ********
 * Philosophy: Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit (Virgil) *
 * Disclaimer: Every statement in this file is possibly !true *
 ******** cut here ******* John Woods ******* cut here *******/


-- 
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments should be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
newsgroup is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.