From: ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed)
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:08:02 GMT


In article <1992Aug12.043346.13866@uceng.UC.EDU>, mghayalo@uceng.UC.EDU (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:

> During the Gulf war many women died, because US bombing of civilian areas,
> is it okay if a married woman marries a man who lost his wife, so that
> she can take care of his children. If you say that there is no way of
> knowing who the child's father is, then you are in the last century,
> by DNA testing you can tell both the parents of the child. 

There is no 100% foolproof method yet.  There is some degree of
inaccuracy in DNA testing.  Ask the FBI -- they're still arguing over
it.

> Don't you
> think that this clause is defunct as now there are ways to test the
> father of the child and now days in wars civilian areas are bombed,
> so more women can die. Now both should be allowed to have more than
> one partner. 

Civilian areas are indeed bombed.  But by and large, the majority of
casualties are still on the battlefield, and the majority of those on
the battlefield are men.

> What constraints are you talking about does the Emir marry more than one
> woman to take care of orphans. You will say he is not a true muslim, then 
> whenever the muslim world is in trouble how come the muslims go to
> him for help. 

I will indeed say he is not a true Muslim.  When I am in trouble, and
I know of someone in power who can help me, I will go to him/her.  The
Emir has power and wealth -- obviously people will go to him in times
of trouble.

> My knowledge about burkha was from Jaffry's posting, if there is no
> requirement in the Koran, I am sorry I was misinformed. Is it a 
> coincidence that as soon as Afghanistan was declared an Islamic state
> women were required to wear a burkha? What I meant by the above statement
> was that mugging is a big problem here, so should you stay locked up in
> your house forever.

Well, I think the analogy between staying locked up and modest dress
is a bit extreme...  Clearly, almost every society has some dress code
that is accepted as "decent."  Certain parts of the body are expected
to be covered.  Modest dress is a relative term -- some expecting more
to be covered than others.  There are obvious differences in anatomy
between women and men which is why, even here, men and women are
expected to cover themselves differently.

> >> 3. No interest. How many muslims really follow this? Not the sheikhs
> >> and also not most of the students here(they have credit cards).
> >
> >The fact that many Muslims don't follow it does not mean it cannot be
> >followed.  There are many Islamic Banks all over the world now.  What
> >is it about society today that prevents them from existing -- clearly,
> >they do exist, so your statement cannot be correct.
> >
> My statement did not mean to imply that they cannot exist. What is their
> purpose? Granted in the olden days money lenders used to cheat poor 
> farmers. Don't you think now you can educate people or regulate banks
> (like Indra Gandhi did in India). Maybe that could not have been done
> in the past, but now muslim banks lose a lot of customers, even the
> shieks put their money in banks which give interest, thus benifitting
> non muslim countries.

Well, if you look at a lot of he loans that are granted to "Third
World" countries and you observe how they struggle with just trying to
pay interest, you start wondering about the system...  My question was
basically why you think Islamic banking is obsolete.  What you have
pointed out is that other systems can work, but that still doesn't
answer my question.

> >> 4. No birth control.
> >
> >Huh?  Since when?  Please quote the relevant passages.
> >
> Again if it is not in the Koran, I am sorry, but there was some 
> opposition by muslims in India against birthcontrol, they stated it
> to unIslamic.

There is no statement in the Qur'an against birth control.  Someone
asked about abortion.  The Islamic standpoint on abortion is that it
is permitted under certain conditions until the soul is breathed into
the fetus, which happens after about the first 40 days.

> >> 5. Islamic punishments, cutting of hands, flogging, etc.
> >
> >Why?  There is no punishment which works better than fear.  What is it
> >that prevents someone from jumping of a cliff?  Fear of death?  Can
> >such a fear not be used to prevent crime?  It appears to work in Saudi
> >Arabia -- shopkeepers often don't even lock up their stores.
> >
> >But what is it that has changed in society which means we cannot
> >implement such punishments?  What makes a punishment acceptable or
> >not?  
> >
> May be before times were desperate, and lawness could be brought into
> effect only by drastic measures, regardless if some innocent people
> suffered. What if you cut of some one's hand and then after some years
> you realize that he was innocent. Don't you think that he would prefer
> staying in jail some years than losing his hand, I know I would.
> Please don't claim Islamic judges are perfect they make no mistakes.

The argument is that fear works and once implemented, crime will sink
to very acceptable levels (e.g. Saudi Arabia).  As for times being
desperate before, one look at inner cities in some of the larger urban
centers in the US may make you shift that statement to the present
tense too...

> >> 6. No socialising between men and women before marriage.
> >
> >Please cite the appropriate verses from the Qur'an if you want us to
> >believe this.  Unless you understand something different under
> >"socializing" from what most people would...
> >
> There was a Pakistani function here at Cincinnati, there was a 
> seperate gathering for men and seperate for women, I concluded
> that unmarried men and women cannot meet each other.

This is not prescribed by the Qur'an.

> I think I anwsered above where I got them from. My intention is not
> to slight Islam (I know I can't slight it anyway), my only point is
> that any book written centuries ago including the bible and the Gita
> cannot be completly relevant today.
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^

It depends on your perspective.  Muslims generally believe that the
Qur'an is as valid today as it was in the past, and will be in the
future.

-- Shakil