From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Muffy's interesting foot-in-mouth problem...
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:56:09 GMT
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <MUFFY.92Dec22220302@remarque.berkeley.edu>, 
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
> Actually, the original discussion was about violence against women.  I
> understand why you wish to twist the facts in this way, but I don't see
> any point in answering it further.

If you wish to limit meta-discussion to one discussion, that's one thing.  I'm
discussing every discussion about violence against men I've ever had.  I've
had lots of discussions about violence against women that didn't involve anyone
bringing up violence against men.

> Well, it would be quite fine with me if you would go to hell.  You
> certainly aren't making the world any better by trying to STOP feminists
> from doing anything about violence against women.  

PLease quote me EVER trying to get feminists OR ANYONE ELSE to stop doing
anything about violence against women.

> I guess if you don't
> have to work to support yourself and your family, you have time to work
> on *ALL* problems (what *have* you done about violence against women
> lately, by the way?), but some of us don't have that luxury.

How long back is lately?  I'll give years and let you decide.  

1985 to present - Being primary support system for more female
rape/abuse/whatever survivors than I bothered counting, including my wife,
several lovers, and a multitude of friends.

1988 to present - Brining up in men's groups why men should be concerned with
violence against women.  Led discussions on rape awareness for men.

Fall 1989 - single-handedly put on a Rape Awareness Week at Antioch College,
including articles for the Antioch _Record_ about rape myths and advice for men
on how to not become rapists.

1991 - Given shelter in my living room to a battered woman and an incest
victim.

Present - I am presently the only support system for a 17 year old girl, 
molested by her mother, father, grandfather, and a day care teacher; presently
emotionally abused by her mother.  Giving this support has cost me well over
$3000 in phone bills since August, and Long Distance phone rates aren't going
down any time soon.

That foot in your big mouth looks awful uncomfortable.  Perhaps you should get
it looked at.

I also been able to work on violence against men in that time as well, being
part of the support system for a number of male rape survivors (some raped by
men, some raped by women, some by both), making sure that the aforementioned
Rape Awareness Week also included information about rape of men.  Amazing how
simple it is to add such information, *all without losing a single bit of
information about rape of women.*

I also work full time and support a family.  What's your excuse?
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
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