HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Refuting Xian Missionaries (README)
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:29:37 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester

In article <1993Jan5.215459.29877@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <5022@ceylon.gte.com> sg04@gte.com writes:
>>They find intellectualizaion and logical reasoning humerous when applied
>>to religion. In generally, X-tanity tends to sneer at Mishna, Gemorrah,
>>etc. as "mixing in intellectualism" into the beauty of "pure faith".

Actually, there are a number of Christian scholars who admire the gemorrah
and the mishnah.  (In fact, one of them (forget his name, but he was German)
wrote what is reputed to be quite a good book on them.)

>> There
>>are strong anti-intellectual tendancies in Xtianity. 

>Gee, doesn't this sound a lot like the "if it feels good, do it"
>attitude of the 60's that got almost all of a generation into
>drugs?...

I'm not sure that this generalization is really correct.  Of course, faith
is at the core of Christianity, but there are numerous important works
that are purely intellectual (see Thomas Aquinas for an example).

In general, I think Judaism is the more intellectually oriented of the two
(which is one of the things I appreciate in it), but I don't know if it's
really fair to call Christianity anti-intellectual.

Gavin Steyn
steyn@cs.rochester.edu
"So he's had the lifelong ambition of reversing the polarity of the earth?"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross)
Subject: Orthodox Judaism and women
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:16:19 GMT


Without defining "sexism" it is hard to discuss the issues raised
in some of the postings. Nevertheless, what I have observed in
religious life has been that people will often assume that an apparently
sexist practice is indeed sanctioned in the religion when it in fact
is not. People otherwise knowledgable in Judaism may assume that
women cannot make kiddush (bless wine) in public, that women cannot play the
piano in a band, or that women cannot pray in groups. In fact, all of
these are part of religious life for Orthodox and Torah-observant women who 
choose to do them.  Just ask your rabbi!  

And for the really inquisitive, find an Orthodox woman rabbi to ask.
(She won't be listed in the phonebook as a rabbi and she won't be able 
to serve in a Beth Din--rabbinic court, but the people in her community will
treat her with the same respect and deference that her male counterpart 
receives.)

Lisa Aiken has just written a book on her perspective of being an 
Orthodox woman, for anyone interested in further exploration of that topic
from a voice more learned and articulate than mine.

--Michelle
mgross@Nosc.mil
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:25013 soc.culture.arabic:6480
From: aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:18:54 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew U. of Jerusalem, Computer Science Dep.
NNTP-Posting-Host: irs01.cs.huji.ac.il

In article <1993Jan7.020316.22229@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
|> In article <1i6pepINN7ou@pita.cs.huji.ac.il>, aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum) writes:
|> |>
|> |> if the name 'palestine' is history, ERETZ-YISRAEL is prehistory. we were
|> |> here first. Relearn your history Mr. Turner.
|> 
|> You are very wrong Mr. Applebaum, the Palestinians are direct decendants of
|> the Canaanites and they were definately there first. Offcourse, you do not
|> beleive in Archaeology and prefer to beleive the Bible and all its wonderful
|> promises. You have enough propaganda and guns to make many people beleive
|> that while victimising an entire Palestinian population as in the past.

I do 'beleive in archaeology AND in the TANACH (=bible). Mind you that they
don't cotradict. 
There are, probably, some traces of canaanit blood in the arabs (all of them)
as it can be, probably, found in the jews. 
But I think that the precentge of jewish blood in the local arabs is much 
higher then the canaanit one (I also heared that it must be real high as
if they weren't partly jewish, the local arabs wouldn't have fought so 
hard for jewish land).

in short, Mr. Aziz, what archaeology books do you read ? 

BTW, do you still beleive in ASHTORET ?

-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
/ Hillel P. Applebaum     |> ISRAEL - where all		
/ Jerusalem,   Israel     |  jews should live !		
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 09:19:04 EST
From: Peter M. Cohen <PC2370A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
 <1ii3efINNba6@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> <93007.221749PC2370A@auvm.american.edu>
 <1iitmjINNjog@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

-------   Original Stuff Deleted to save Space  ----------
>->This brings some questions to mind:

>->
>->1) Does this imply that the Germans deserve a homeland?
>->
>->2) If five boy scouts help old ladies across the street, does this imply
>->   that Americans deserve a homeland?
>->
>->If I had to wrap up my view, I would say that individual Germans are
>->wonderful, but as a group they suck.
>->
>-At first I wasn't going to entertain this response to my posting but the
>-shear rediculousness of it forces me to.  In answer to question 1; yes, the
>-Germans deserve and have a homeland.  I'm afraid I don't understand your
>-question number 2; what are you implying ??  Are you actually attempting to
>-use logic ? If so, your reasoning escapes me...
>-
>-------------------------------------------------
>-Peter Cohen         pc2370a@auvm.american.edu
>-------------------------------------------------
>
>Your posting, as I read it, stated the following:
>
>A) Not all Germans were evil (ie, supported killing Jews during WWII).
>B) Not all Arabs are evil( ie, actively support PLO, Hamas, etc).
>
>Then you conclude (I quote):
>
>-> I have finally come to the conclusion that both Jews and the Palistinians
>-> deserve a homeland.
>
>Since this is a conclusion, I added the following:
>
>C) (obvious) Not all Jews are evil (ie, support PLO, are Nazis).
>
>and got:
>
>D) All groups who have members which are not evil (ie, nasty to Jews)
>   deserve a homeland.
>
>This is your logic, no?  How else can you chain together A and B to get
>your conclusion?
>

I came to the conclusion based on reasoning not totally verbalized in the
article.  Certainly the Germans both deserve and currently have a homeland.
The Boyscouts of America have a homeland; the USA.  Any group of persons who
have a common historical/ racial/ economic/ ethnic/ religious background
deserve a homeland, however, not at the expense or demise of another group(s) o
of people.  Historically, the way in which groups of people acquired ownership
of a homeland was through war and conquest.  We humans have perfected war to
the point that the next one will more than likely destroy everyone.  This
situation has forced us to come to terms with each other through more peacefull
means.  Weather it is right, or it is wrong, the Palestinians do have a
ancestral tie to the land that is now Israel.  Palestinians have lived there
for generations.  My point is that hopefully, some peacefull solution can be
reached and Palistinians and Israelis can share the same land...

---------------------------
P. Cohen  pc2370a@auvm.american.edu
--------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Dr Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date:  5 Jan 93 22:18:55 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>Jewish nor Arab.  For me, someone who acquired land by fair means
>a few generations ago, even if they had just moved from another 
>place, has a right of occupancy which completely overwhelms that
>of someone else who merely belongs to a group whose "ancestors"
>(i.e., that fraction, perhaps small, of those ancestors thousands 
>of years earlier with whom they have decided to identify) were
>unjustly disenherited.

Brendan's opinions seem not to apply to his own country Australia.
After a notable court ruling it  now appears that claims from indigenous
Aborgines may transcend the purchases by marauding white  Australians
who expelled them from their land. The central business district
in Brisbane is now under threat.

Brendan's opinion is understandeable, for without it, I fear no white
Australian (such as Brendan) would really have a right to their plot---morally.
I guess if Brendan lived in earlier times when people fought to aquire land
that such acquisition would also be okay in his eyes. Shades of Darwin from
a Mathematician who knows that he  can't apply Mathematics to determine such
things and has therefore adopted pragmatic reality?
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel must NOT return the "garbage"
Date: 10 Jan 93 21:00:57 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <93009.1824542893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy) writes:
>
>If Cuba expels people to the US, people who are not US citizens, does the
>US have an obligation to accept them?

This is a remote issue.  Besides that, happened in the early 80's.  You might
look to current events and the Haitian refugee problem (whom are faced with
the decision of being allowed freedom in the U.S. or return to death
and percecution in Haiti under its current dictatorship).  Can the U.S.
(or, on a comparative basis, Israel), whose laws are comprised of such
'moralistic' and 'just' principles, afford to not allow amnesty to such
people, lest they be accused of applying double standards and hypocricy?

Anisa
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ayf@pruxp.att.com (Avi Feldblum)
Subject: Re: Feld brothers update
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:50:05 GMT

The following is an informational update:

Avrum Feld was released on bail late Monday (Jan 4) evening.

Avi Feldblum
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
From: godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:53:21 GMT

In article <C0Jzzw.Lzu@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
> 
>>In my view the Germans forfeited their right to their country (a homeland, if
>>you like) by their actions during the first and second WW's, particularly the
>>latter.  As I have said before, it was a mistake to allow the German nation
>>to continue after WW2 and a mistake to allow the recent reunification.  I can
>>only hope that after the next example of the Germans' attempts to subject the
>>rest of the world to what they see as their superiority (inevitable in my
>>view) that the same mistake will not be made once again.
> 
>>Laurence
> 
> You say such *interesting* things around the full of the moon!
> 
> Lenore Levine

The moon is not full in my latitude at the present time

Laurence
From: norm@helix.nih.gov(Norm Friedman)
Subject: Re: time between BASAR & CHLAV
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <norm@helix.nih.gov(Norm Friedman)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:29:05 GMT

>I wander what period of time most jews wait between
>BASAR and CHALV. 
>I thougt that 3 hours is the most common MINHAG.
>My wife thinks it's 5.31 hours.
>
>	What do u say, shell we take a poll ? 
>
>-- 
>
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
>/ Hillel P. Applebaum     |> ISRAEL - where all	        Better cheese cake
>/ Jerusalem,   Israel     |  jews should live !		then    without it.
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
I was alway taught, "into the 6th hour" which to me always meant that at
least 5 hours have had to have passed.  Anyway, I also like this new sig,
but not as much as the one re: Golan.
+--------------------------------------------------------+
   

   *    ***    ***     *
   *   *   *     *     *
   *   *   *           *   
   *    ***         ***
   *   nissan reuven b'R Shami             
   *   
   *   *  *   ***   ***   **  **
   *   ** *  *   *  *  *  * ** *
   *   * **  *   *  ***   *    *
   *   *  *   ***   *  *  *    *
       norm  "EVERYWHERE I GO, I GO TO ISRAEL!"
+---------------------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The NYPD situation (was: Say it ain't so)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 02:24:07 GMT

In article <RLK.93Jan2151152@underprize.think.com> rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:

>If they are found not guilty at trial, how can you say "they are in fact
>guilty"?  Do you have any better method than a trial for determining
>guilt?
>
>If someone takes the stand in his own defense and denies guilt, and that
>statement is later found to be incorrect, he can still be tried for
>perjury.  And if he didn't take the stand, then the prosecution didn't
>present a strong enough case.

I'll bet most murderers would prefer being sentenced for Perjury than
for Murder.

>Are you or are you not saying that Nelson should have been denied a
>trial, 

Not only was Nelson deserving of a fair trial, it was the
responsibility of society to give him one.  The "show" trial that
acquitted him in spite of the evidence is a shame to us all.

>that the evidence was so overwhelming that he should have been
>sent to prison immediately?  

In the US, people go through court before they go to prison.

>Are you saying that he should have been
>retried until found guilty, because "everyone knows he did it"?

I'm saying that the jury should have considered the evidence, instead
of throwing it out in a theory of police conspiracy against minorities.

>Bosh.  How do you define "decent" and "indecent" (in a legal sense) in
>any way other than "not guilty" and "guilty" without substituting mob
>rule for justice?  South Africa solved this by "banning" people that the
>state didn't like.  I don't want to emulate *that* here.

This is precisely why I am so incensed that some juries have refused
to convict the defendant, irrespective of any evidence that may be
brought.  Such actions are indeed substituting mob rule for justice
here in the USA.

>You haven't even tried to come up with any better ideas.

I've been arguing with lawyers who have steadfastly claimed that their
system is working just fine.  It's not.

Perhaps the jury should be held to some higher standards.  Are
jury-members liable to any punishment for being derelict in their
duties?  Should juries that produce "bizarre" verdicts be liable for
contempt of court?  Aren't there new (or old) dangers here?  

I may not have the answers but I can sure say that the current system
is infamous for it's expense and for it's inability to achieve a
consistent level of justice.  With many juries, we might as well toss
a quarter. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: sutin@ra.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Date: 7 Jan 1993 20:22:39 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.ucsc.edu

In article <93007.143346PC2370A@auvm.american.edu> PC2370A@auvm.american.edu (Peter M. Cohen) writes:
-[...]
-To the German people I owe an apology.  Not all Germans were Nazis.  AS for the
-Arabs, after speaking to some Lebanese and Palistinians who are living here in
-the US Ive come to realize that many Arabs oppose the PLO and Hamas but can not
-act because of the threat of retaliation against them.  This is similar to the
-attitude of those Germans who opposed Hitlers policies but were powerless to do
-anything about it.  I have finally come to the conclusion that both Jews and
-the Palistinians deserve a homeland.

-P. Cohen  pc2370a@auvm.american.edu

This brings some questions to mind:

1) Does this imply that the Germans deserve a homeland?

2) If five boy scouts help old ladies across the street, does this imply
   that Americans deserve a homeland?

If I had to wrap up my view, I would say that individual Germans are
wonderful, but as a group they suck.

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Who wrote the Torah?
Date: 3 Jan 93 13:41:13 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew U. of Jerusalem, Computer Science Dep.
NNTP-Posting-Host: irs01.cs.huji.ac.il

In article <C06Gvt.G33@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
[sd]
|> There is a big difference between something being written (or dictated
|> word by word) by God, and being produced under a mortal's attempt to
|> understand what God wanted done.

Can you give an example of HALACHIK difference ? I don't recall any 
HALACH based on the question 'who wrote the tora' ?
I want an answer from the Orthodox HALACH, it seems to me that 
reform jews would still hold their (worng) HALACH even if it was
to be proved that the TORA was 'dictatedword by word' by God :-|

-- 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
/ Hillel P. Applebaum     |> ISRAEL - where all		Better    the   Golan 
/ Jerusalem,   Israel     |  jews should live !		then peace without it.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: norm@helix.nih.gov(Norm Friedman)
Subject: Re: Who wrote the Torah?
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <norm@helix.nih.gov(Norm Friedman)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:11:03 GMT

>In article <C06Gvt.G33@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>[sd]
>|> There is a big difference between something being written (or dictated
>|> word by word) by God, and being produced under a mortal's attempt to
>|> understand what God wanted done.
>
>Can you give an example of HALACHIK difference ? I don't recall any 
>HALACH based on the question 'who wrote the tora' ?
>I want an answer from the Orthodox HALACH, it seems to me that 
>reform jews would still hold their (worng) HALACH even if it was
>to be proved that the TORA was 'dictatedword by word' by God :-|
>
>-- 
>
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
>/ Hillel P. Applebaum     |> ISRAEL - where all		Better    the   Golan 
>/ Jerusalem,   Israel     |  jews should live !		then peace without it.
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*- 
Hillel, Shalom
No further comments about your message, I agree.  What I want to comment on
is your new signature and I CERTAINLY DO AGREE WITH YOU RE: GOLAN.  My wife
and I recently (November) came for 1st time and toured through Golan.  Just
visualizing how much Israeli blood has been spilled to make the area and
all of Israel safe from the terror from North and Northeast, makes me
realize more, that NOT AN INCH SHOULD BE RETURNED. Especially Syria will
never be at peace and this area is certainly a important means of
protection.  I applaud and thank the people who live and work in the Golan.
 I now have the 3rd of my sons at Yeshiva in Yisroel.  #1 spent a year at
Karem B'Yavneh, #2 1/2 yr at Ner Yakov (Har Nof) and a year at Ohr
Yerushalayim (Beit Meir), #3 is currently at Ohr Yerushalayim.
Am Yisroel Chai.  be well
+--------------------------------------------------------+
   

   *    ***    ***     *
   *   *   *     *     *
   *   *   *           *   
   *    ***         ***
   *   nissan reuven b'R Shami             
   *   
   *   *  *   ***   ***   **  **
   *   ** *  *   *  *  *  * ** *
   *   * **  *   *  ***   *    *
   *   *  *   ***   *  *  *    *
       norm  "EVERYWHERE I GO, I GO TO ISRAEL!"
+---------------------------------------------------------+
From: dstang@teal.csn.org (Dan Stanger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: article regarding kidnapping at disney world
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:45:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.

a few days ago someone posted a article regarding a israely
couple whose children were kidnapped at disney world.
i am interested in getting a copy of the article which
disappeared from the machine and also any other information
regarding this.
please email me at dxs@evolving.com.
thank you,
dan stanger
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:24818 soc.culture.german:9648
From: georg@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Georg Schwarz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Date: 8 Jan 1993 23:16:28 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
NNTP-Posting-Host: marie.physik.tu-berlin.de

In <1993Jan8.210012.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:

>In my view the Germans forfeited their right to their country (a homeland, if
>you like) by their actions during the first and second WW's, particularly the
>latter.  As I have said before, it was a mistake to allow the German nation
>to continue after WW2 and a mistake to allow the recent reunification.  I can
>only hope that after the next example of the Germans' attempts to subject the
>rest of the world to what they see as their superiority (inevitable in my
>view) that the same mistake will not be made once again.

>Laurence

I just hope that there aren't too many people out there who not only have
such a way of thinking but do not even feel ashame making it public.

I think noone should be obliged feeling guilty (nor proud, BTW) because of
one's mere race or nationality which one has simply inhereted.
No race or nation should be considered superiour or inferiour to another,
especially not in moral terms.

I know that there are many people (and probably will always be) who take
a diffent stand on this.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:52:26 GMT

John Elghani said:

Q2:  How did Israel punish the American spy ship?  They bombed it, right?.

This has been explained and answered, so just put it to rest, OK?

While the ship was seen flying the American flag, in response to a
direct question about the ship, the American embassy denied that there
were any U.S. ships in that area.  When later an explosion occurred
in the El Arish area, the first thought was that it came from shells
fired from that ship, that must've been Egyptian (since according to the
U.S., it wasn't an American ship).

Enough about the Liberty now, you got your answer!
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish