HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A3000T and Mac Quadra pricing
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:55:50 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In <1992Sep11.124610.21755@gbrmpa.gov.au> matt@gbrmpa.gov.au (Matt) writes:
>
>I'm rather amused you can use "4 plane" and "24 bit" in the same sentence.
>

     Then you're obviously not familiar with DCVT.

     (Actually, it would be more like a 21-bit display from a 4-plane
screen...)



-- 
Don Lloyd                / "No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of \
don@chopin.udel.edu      | another computer is a kludge.  It has nothing to do |
GeNIE: D.LLOYD7          \ with the Intel CPU"  - Jerry Shekhel                /
BIX: DRL  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Subject: Re: A4000 at WOC
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 17:14:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
X-Spook-Fodder: hero heroin tree shrub bush birth life death FBI CIA NSA

In <1992Sep13.025524.16629@tronsbox.xei.com> bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:

>Wrong.  That report is second-hand data from Marc's perspective, but
>it was a first-hand report.  By the way you're trying to twist the
>language, the only way to use a first-hand report as data would be to
>write the report yourself, then refer to it.

>Stop picking nits.  When Marc is right, he's right, and no semantic
>games will change that.

ummmm.... this thread has all the making of a Pointless Thread from Hell (tm),
but think about it for a second:

your argument only confirms the original thesis. All second-hand reports start
out somewhere as a first-hand report - that's an undeniable fact. when someone 
makes a statement based upon someone elses observations, that's a second-hand
report. no twisting of language, no subversion of facts, no bullshit.

until marc sees an a4000 in action, anything he states concerning 
subjective impressions of relative performance are necessarily second-hand
information. until *you* have seen an a4000 in action, all you have to go on
is second-hand information. one report says its "slow", one report says its
"fast". since we are talking about epiphenomena (the subjectiveness of what is
slow or fast), unless there is broad consensus on this (everyone who has seen
the a4000 states "its dog slow"), it seems foolish to base decisions on
preliminary, second-hand impressions.

in this instance, marc's "observations" based upon second-hand information
are neither right nor wrong. they are specious and ultimately irrelevant.

said state obtains for all of marc's postings, it should be noted.

-- 
paul theodoropoulos                          damiel@netcom.com

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
Subject: Re: More AmigaWorld Lies
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:31:36 GMT

Various people write:
>>>  4 dealers 
>>>---------------- * 250 million == 250 dealers
>>>4 million people
>>
>>    3 dealers
>>----------------- * 250 million == 1500 dealers
>> 500000 people
>
>    1 dealers
>----------------- * 250 million == 75 dealers
> 3.5 million people
>

     Oh yeah?  Well, the local Computerland sells Amigas and is the only
_only_ dealer in its whole shopping center!  I figure that there are about
100 people in the shopping center at one time on the average business day,
so:

      1 Dealer
   ---------------- * 250 Million  == 2.5 million dealers
     100 people


    So Commodore's claim of 1000 dealers was clearly a blatant LIE of
MarcBarrettal magnitude!


-- 
Don Lloyd                / "No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of \
don@chopin.udel.edu      | another computer is a kludge.  It has nothing to do |
GeNIE: D.LLOYD7          \ with the Intel CPU"  - Jerry Shekhel                /
BIX: DRL  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: johnt@netcom.com (The Mad Croat)
Subject: Re: Go Amigo [was: More AmigaWorld Lies]
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 14:29:58 GMT
Organization: Perot Computer Corp.

In article <music.715804203@batman> music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:
>Go Amigo was running out of a railroad car?!? My experiences with them

	Their offices used to be in an industrial park which had
a railroad car for decoration. This was in Redwood City, CA. Nice
enough looking place.

>must have been at that time. I've never dealt with a company that
>caused me more headaches and personal expense that Go Amigo! I was on

	I never had the slightest problem with them. I wish they
were still in the Bay Area.

-- 
  John Tomicich 				johnt@netcom.COM
       I joked with two men in a Harlem bar. Everyone suddenly
  felt happy because my laughter was unafraid. I thought I
  could borrow some money from them.
From: rcaslis@anansi.acs.uci.edu (Russell Caslis)
Subject: Questions for people attending WOC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:33:37 GMT


OK, I may get to go to WOC tommorrow, but here are the questions I'd like
to ask people who are/were there today:

1) Details on AA chipset (what resolution, # of colors, speed)?
2) Is there a mid-line machine with AA?
   A) what price?
   B) when available?
   C) does it have a hard disk, what size?
   D) it anyone (creative computers?) taking orders for it?
3) Will the A600 get the AA chipset?
4) When will the hardware manuals (with AA info) be available?


I guess that's all for now.


--
Russ Caslis
rcaslis@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: aga chipset for amiga
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 06:08:35 GMT

In article <25380015@hpsad.sad.hp.com> kevint@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Kevin Taddeucci) writes:
>Ok, here is the scoop I got a WOC on the possibility of an AA chipset 
>upgrade for the A3000. Defiantly not possible. I asked both Peter Cherna 
>and I believe it was Michael Sinz (correct me if I'm wrong Mike). I even 
>specifically asked about the possibility of a card for the co-processor 
>slot. Their answer was that it would not be possible as it would require 
>to many jumpers to the mother board. 

   They seem to be in conflict with Dave Haynie, who stated in a message in 
a message about 30 messages back that it was possible.

>       ----------------------------- ------------------------------------
>      | Kevin J. Taddeucci          | e-mail: kevint@hpsad.sad.hp.com    |
>      | Hewlett Packard Firmware QA | HPDesk: Kevin TADDEUCCI /HP5300/A0 |
>      | Telnet: 794-4192            | HP Mailstop: 2LR-N                 | 
>       ----------------------------- ------------------------------------

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: IFF database of .advocacy folks
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 01:15:19 GMT

In article <+p1ympb@rpi.edu> danaf@bray1b.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.) writes:
>Well, not to knock the PC's now-superior resolution and color count (Amiga
>24-bit and EGS boards ignored...), but IMHO **ALL** pictures look blocky on
>a VGA display. It's those damn square pixels. I like our ratio (whatever it
>is ... I keep forgetting... 7:5???) better.

Well, you must have much better eyesight than me.  I know 
they're square, but those individual pixels really are too small to
tell 'ewww, look, they're SQUARE'.  If you get a chance to
use Windows, launch the Paintbrush program. Chose the 'brush' of 
one-pixel size.  Make a SINGLE black dot.  It's really tiny.
Now...choose that (bright) yellow as the color you want to draw with.
Now make a SINGLE yellow dot.  Surprise! You can't see it!   

And you tell me that VGA resolution is 'too blocky'?  You must be 
joking.  Perhaps you comment on how any particular graphics are drawn,
but VGA resolution is inherently TOO small to claim pixels are 'square'.

>   -Frank Dana, known (718)-(212)-(516) over as Amiuser/Doc Ami!
-- 
Dan Stephenson                                           das9674@usl.edu
" BERLIN WALL FALLS.  3 BORDER GUARDS LOSE JOBS.  CLINTON BLAMES BUSH! "
        -George Bush, '92 Republican nomination acceptance speech
From: raymondu@terapin.com (Raymond Ulibarri)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things that make you go hmm...
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:32:31 PST
Organization: BBS

   Barring all the negative Commodore remarks, the PC-MIA slot on the A600 is a
novel approach.  According to Commodore (and many laptop manufactureres) the
PC-MIA slot _IS_ and industry standard.  This means it's been accepted by
manufacturers and developers as a universally compatible slot.
   I would say PC-MIA is not unlike CCITT -- any PC-MIA product will work in
any PC-MIA slot -- regardless of what computer it's in.
   Imagine being able to plug a 20MB PC-MIA card to a DOS laptop, copy all your
spreadsheets (or GIFS, JPEG...) to the card, plugging the same card to your
A600 and copying the 20MB of data to your A600 hard drive.
   Imagine being able to shop in PC stores for PC-MIA products.  It's like
getting lots of new products for our Amigas.
   Personally, I'm looking forward to PC-MIA for all Amiga computers.  Perhaps
a 3/5" form factor to place in one of the floppy drive bays?


Raymond Ulibarri
Vice President
MultiCon
Multimedia Concepts
(510)261-1001
From: raymondu@terapin.com (Raymond Ulibarri)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lynx (was Re: More Jeff Young Rambings)
Date: 7 Sep 92 15:51:33 GMT
Organization: BBS


   I also heard that Nolan Bushnell left Commodore, but didn't desert -- he was
released.  Speaking with a CBM high exec, I was told that Nolan Bushnell's
ideas about heralding CDTV didn't agree with the brass at CBM.  It seems,
during a major CDTV press conference, while journalists set to write with their
journalist pads, Bushnell announced, while holding up a CDTV disc, "Pen and
paper will soon be obsolete."
   Apparently a lot of people at CBM didn't think that was so smart a remark.


Raymond Ulibarri
Vice President
MultiCon
Multimedia Concepts
(510)261-1001
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.emulations
From: ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene)
Subject: Re: High Density drive for the Amiga???
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 05:04:10 GMT

>   Well, there's a reason why alot of us don't read comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
>   the big reason is that we read these groups to learn about new amiga stuff
>  and more things about the hardware and software already out and comming for
> it. I am ABSOLUTELY SICK and tired of going through these newsgroups just to
> hear about OH IBM 
>   is this and Atari ius that and can your amiga do that? And all the flames
>    on this great machine from all sorts of people who have
>    never used the thing. I absolutely hate comp.sys.amiga.advocacy now.
>    It sucks rocks because it has been taken over by everybody except
>   amiga owners who just come right along saying, your machine sucks.

	Am I reading the same group as you?  I see plenty of Amiga owners
   bashing PC's as well.  


>  Don't they have anything better to do? I don't see a bunch of amihga
>  owners going to comp.sys.ibmpc or something and flame them. What's the

	You should have read one of the pc.misc groups about a month ago,
   a couple of Amigadroids did just this.  So don't go claiming that Amiga
   owners are innocent of starting flame wars in other groups.

							G.Greene


>   problem here? Do these guys just have an attitude problem or just want to
>  be punks and fight against people who just want to use their system in
>   peace. 
>              --- Michael Bromery.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: cadwallader@forty2.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: Way to go Commodore! Yeah...right.
Reply-To: cadwallader@forty2.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:16:42 GMT


{grumble .. grumble}

We've just had THE MOST EXCITING product info I've ever read, about our
favourite machine no-less and there's grumbling aplenty!!! :-|

A500/1500/2000/2500/3000 are all OLD motherboard tech., the new things are
EXCITING stuff! To release from device-dependant AMIGA we knew and loved
meant radicle rethink and change, there HAD to be a `break-point' where we
say we'll go with the new and forget the old... unfortunate, but true.

Can you believe CBM giving such incredible details? Can you believe CBM
*admitting* to being sorely behind the competition? They seem to have
changed to SUPPORT SUPREME mode, they have listened, learned and kept
smugly quiet and now blast us with the AGA and post-AGA specs! Do all this
and leave everyone high and dry? No way. Hold faith, there will almost
certainly be BIG incentives to upgrade, CBM want as many of us on the AGA
bandwagon as they can get! cf Apple attitude and SMILE :-)

Also, listen to the between the lines news in the postings. It is GOOD - new
*lo-cost* AGA machines, modular design so we can have that fantastic post-AGA
chipset when it arrives, HD drives, new OS; and what is around the corner?
16-bit sound, DSP support, PostScript support, TCP/IP (BIG benefit), API
support.

A600...
I think this IS a bit odd, but remember all of you in the US, the little-
Amigas are MASSIVE sellers in Europe, so why kill a winning formula. IMHO
I think A600 will eventually be pushed reeeeaaaal low to compete DIRECTLY
with SEGA/NINTENDO, i.e. we will have the A600 "games box", the A????
low-cost AGA box (read "new A500"), and perhaps a replacement for the
A3000 if demand fizzles out... or more likely a range of A4000s with
different CPU modules...

This is great stuff. They are acknowledging old design limitations and
being brave enough to make the clean break right NOW. It hurts a bit,
but when development is accelerated due to the new open/modular methods
we'll KNOW they did good... and when all you A3000 owners (lucky bleeders! :) )
have Powered-Up to 4000s you'll have something to smile about!

I have perhaps just made a redundant upgrade myself from 1.3 to 2.04 by 
buying an A500+ and now 2.1 is here! Yet, I feel CBM have done us proud,
I can't believe the technology talked about at WOC can be TOUCHED by Mac,
PC, Acorn Arc... and the idea of a RISC-based Amiga is just too much to
behold! :-)

								- JIM CAD*
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: A3000T and Mac Quadra pricing
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 10:09:15 GMT

In <1992Sep11.124610.21755@gbrmpa.gov.au> matt@gbrmpa.gov.au (Matt) writes:
>In article <copes.716192048@marsh> copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope) writes:
>>
>>can play back 4 plane DCTV anims at 766x533 res (equiv 24 bit) full screen at

>I'm rather amused you can use "4 plane" and "24 bit" in the same sentence.

Maybe because you don't know what data compression is ? He may have exaggerated
a little bit but DCTV shows something similar to 20 bit color (in PAL/NTSC
resolutions of course).

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: lrfox@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (linda ream fox)
Subject: Re: Black Apples
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:52:47 GMT

My husband just lucked into a pretty much intact Altair 8800.  Anyone know
where he can get/go for information on using it?

   LRFox
From: tdenbo@dwp.la.ca.us (Tom Denbo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: WOC summary, 9/12, part 2 (LONG)
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:58:59 GMT

The 72 HZ refresh sounds interesting.  What resolutions does it run in?
(Your eyes will thank you for the faster refresh).
--
       //     Tom Denbo                   111 No. Hope St.  Rm 732
      //      PD&C Workstation Support    Dept. of Water and Power
    \X/       (213) 481-3376              Los Angeles,  CA   90051   
===================== INTERNET: tdenbo@guru.dwp.la.ca.us  =====================
From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Stuff
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:56:05 GMT
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <copes.716017389@marsh> copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope) writes:

>The A600 may be more expandable than C= is letting on at present.  Apparently
>there is a bunch of unused circuitry on the board.  Golem of germany have
>announced an 030 accelerator for it which DOESN'T require the 68000 to be
>chissled off the board.  Figure that one out.            

Maybe it works like some of the Mac accelerators (I don't know much about the
A600 design, this might not work on an A600).  On non-slotted Macs, like on the
A600, the 68000's bus arbitration signals don't really go anywhere.  If you're
lucky, BR* and BGACK* go to a pullup resistor (actually, you only really need
BGACK* for an accelerator).  The accelerator clamps on top of the 68000 and 
takes the bus away from it, and you're off.  That's hardly designed-in 
expandability -- anything that has to wedge itself into a socket or over a
chip is by its very nature something of a kludge.  But even kludges can be
useful.


-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      BIX: hazy
	"Work like a horse, drink like a fish"	- Psychefunkapus
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: aga chipset for amiga
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:12:20 GMT

glens@natinst.com (Glen Sescila) writes:
>	Somebody mentions that yes, HAM is the only way to get more than
>256 colors simultaneously with AGA but it is available on all resolutions.
>But my point was that HAM just isn't useful for much besides looking at
>still pictures.  For example; can Workbench run in HAM mode?

You need more than 256 colors for Workbench!  I am just curious as to why.

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: 10667547@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (JIMMY FANG)
Subject: Re: Jeff Young is a Tweeker
Summary: jyoung? What a GEEK
Keywords: Tweeker,imbecile,atavism
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, Monash University 
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:51:22 GMT

In article <dvan.715668760@crash> dvan@crash.cts.com (David Vandeven) writes:
>From: dvan@crash.cts.com (David Vandeven)
>Subject: Jeff Young is a Tweeker
>Date: 5 Sep 92 04:52:40 GMT
>Summary: jyoung? What a GEEK
>Keywords: Tweeker,imbecile,atavism
>
>Somebody come clean...  Is jyoung an actual person, or perhaps the rantings
>of some freshman joke concieved while snorting Dran-O?

He could be anyone.  The system that he is posting from doesn't guarantee 
the correct identity of users.

>
>David Vandeven-     ********************************************************
>Systems Progammer   *   "If you can't say something nice, say something    *
>                    *       SURREAL"  Zippy the Pinhead                    *
>You down wit OOP?   *               (dvan@crash.cts.com)                   *
> Yeah, you know C!  ********************************************************
>

Wonder why you haven't seen Jeff Young around lately?
Try looking in comp.sys.amiga.  It might mean comp.sys.atari.advocacy to 
him.  I don't know why he posts to that news group instead of here.  But I 
don't usually look at comp.sys.amiga.  I think he got tired of being flamed 
out of .advocacy.

Jim


Jim Fang - Bachelor of Economics (3) / B.E (3) .-_|\        Snail Mail
Monash University - Clayton, VIC, Australia   /     \       POA Box 539
InterNet  10667547@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au     \_.-._/       Brentford Square
 E-Mail:  kroddos@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au            o     // Victoria 3131
          ece950aec3@vx24.cc.monash.edu.au       AMIGA \X/  Australia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOCIALIST: someone who has nothing and wants to share it with everyone.
From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Way to go Commodore! Yeah...right.
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:01:41 GMT
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Sep12.222650.2394@microsoft.com> iank@microsoft.com (Ian Kennedy) writes:
>Glad to know my not yet paid for A3000 is an orphaned machine.

Better buy a clue while you're paying for the A3000.  The A3000 is hardly
"orphaned" just because it doesn't have the features that are in the new 
machine, any more than the A600 is orphaned because it doesn't have the 
features of the A3000.  

>Just who is going to develop software for the new AA chips?

Why not support the AA chips?  We are, after all, talking about a computer.
Programs can make simple decisions, like "let's do A if there are 4 bitplanes
and B if there are 8", etc.  This kind of thing is done all the time on PCs
and Macs.

>And what's the deal with the A600? And the A3000T/040? It makes
>no sense at all! None! Two newly released machines that can't use
>the new chips? 

You expect any new chip C= designs to plug in where the old ones lived?  Get
used to disappointment.  You really should be flaming Motorola, though.  They
have changed their bus interface four times so far (68000, 68020, 68030, and
68040) since the 680x0 family came out.  And that's just one chip, and a simple
CPU at that.  

>Who's going to buy them? Especially the A600? 

I imagine folks who can't afford $3000 or so for an A4000 might consider $500
(or whatever) for an A600.  Not everyone who buys a Chevy gets a Corvette, some
only want or need Chevettes.

>Ian "Huh? Say what?" Kennedy

Say what indeed.  

>/* The AA chips are here! Too bad they won't work in my A3000	*/
>/* Once again C= screws its entire user base. Way To Go!	*/
>/* Now I konw how the A1000 owners felt. Oh well.		*/

Yeah, if improving the system is screwing the user base, you all need to be
screwed more often.  At least you can run the Amiga OS on the A1000, even 3.0.
A ROM conversion kit is all you need.  Try OS/2 or Windows 3.x on the original 
IBM PC, or System 7 on the original Mac.  And consider where the Amiga market
would be today if there hadn't been followons to the A1000.  I don't understand
this extreme view I read now and than that says improving the _line_ of systems
hurts anyone.  History has never borne this out.

-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Cool Advanced High-End Systems You Can't See Yet)
 "The Crew That Never Rests"  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh   BIX: hazy
             "We're not hitchhiking anymore, we're riding" -Ren Hoek