From: srinivas@vision.crd.ge.com (Chukka Srinivas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: hyderabadi muslims, patriotism etc.,
Date: 19 Dec 92 21:36:24 GMT
Organization: GE Corp. Research & Development, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Dec18.091514.604@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sjayanth@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Satyanand V. Jayanthi) writes:
>From Chukka Srinivas...
>
>
>:Sir, can you please explain this statement. 
>:And how many Hyd. muslims did you interact with?
>:or talk to?
>
>:First of all, maybe we shouldn't make a big deal of our
>:middle class perceptions about patroitism and should stop
>:giving this partriotic litmus test to people, be they of any
>:religious background.
>
>  Is this not very familiar? Patriotism is a bourgeous concept.hmm... looks
>like secularism could just be a facade. In anycase..i come across these
>arguments quite frequently..start with a problem at hand,..in this case it
>is about the extra territorial loyalities of a section of muslims..and then
>we have these lovers of humanity who declare that the whole world should
>live like one family....and the political debate is hijacked into one of
>philosophy, probably because one can utter all sorts of bullshit and get
>away. 


Maybe, you are reading too much into what I wrote.
In a different section, you DO agree that your middle class
status did influence your perceptions about patriotism.
That's all my point is.
So, rather than getting into
this meaningless discussion about 'who is more patriotic?'
concentrate on addressing real issues -like improving 
living conditions and building up economic security among
people - and then these questions about national loyalty and
patriotism make sense. 


>
>:And maybe, we have to question why and how anybody starts to 
>:identify with this abstract notion of belonging to one nation.
>
>:Let's see.
>:How much does the nation really care for an ordinary
>:person, in a feudal society like ours, for him or her
>:to place national loyality above other loyalities.
>:(for example, religious and regional loyalities).
>
>  Why do i have this urge to quote JFKs "dont think what the country has
> done for you think of what you can do for it...." :-)

>

I am not talking about any leader's nobler thoughts.
I am talking about how common people like me start to 
identify with the concept of nation.
Patriotic feelings are neither inborn nor do they dawn
upon us on one fine morning.



> Now, we come to the point. Do we take it as a process of evolution that
>the person will first outgrow his caste loyalities, religious,
>regional..loyalities, and finally even overcome his loyality for the
>country itself....I think the problem in india is that a few people are
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>stuck up at the stage of religious loyality and another few who have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>outgrown nationalistic feelings...
>


I think it is much more than a 'few people'.
And a majority of these people are non-muslims.


>:Don't you think your middle class status in the society
>:has also something to do with your perceptions about
>:what constitutes patriotism and why it is so important?
>:Doesn't it has to do with what class, caste, tribe, region
>:and religion you belong to? 
>:Do you think that our perceptions about patriotism
>:are eternal and absolute? 
>
>
>True. our middle class status is an important reason for this perception of
>what constitutes patriotism, but it is on this very idea of patriotism that
>the other countries have prospered, and i think these perceptions havent
>changed at all in those places...and this loyality to ones country is
>defined as patriotism. If it is loyality to his caste, it is casteism, if
>it is to some religion or region it is fanaticism and regionalism. And i am sure that out
>of these three ie., patriotism, casteism and religious fanaticism, only patriotism
>enjoys some respect.


For somebody to substitute his age-old loyalities with
the newer ones, however respectable and nobler they may be,
there has to be sufficient reason for him to see that it
is in his own interest do so.
(I do not expect an ordinary landless laborer to talk
with same passion as an ordinary middle class person
about patriotism and nation.)

I repeat this. In a feudal society like ours, this question
really becomes important.

WITHOUT any substantial improvement (for that matter, it worsened)
in the material basis for such a change, Indian muslims are being
unfairly asked to do so than Indian Hindus or any other religious
minorities are.

(An Indian Hindu does not have to come in conflict with his religious
loyality to oppose Pakistan. For that matter, in some cases thier Hindu
religion loyality further enforced thier oppostion to Pakistan.) 

Partition based on religion and the communal voilence
followed it has brought all kinds of miseries overnight to
that specfic religious minorities in both India and Pakistan. 
(If you are interested, please read Asghar Ali Engineer's 
articles posted by Srinivas Budaraju).

In both the countries, the majority became suscipicious
of the specfic minority loyalities. And at each or every
occasion (like even a simple cricket match), they are asked
to undergo this litmus test. This has only contributed to
further misunderstanding in either communities.
(Hindus in Pakistan may be undergoing thru same, type of
unfair scrutiny). Pakistan being an Islamic state and
the two wars we had with Pakistan has further worsened
Indian muslim problems.

And day to day worsening economical conditions for
a majority of people, the feudalistic and short-sighted
communalization of electoral politics by all the major
parties, the ruling elite handling of Assam, Punjab,
Kashmir and every other major problem has led to the
communalization of our complete society.

And, we are now at a stage, even ready to destroy the basic
tenets of any kind of real development. And undo even whatever
little progress we have achieved in the last 40 years.

It is sad and pathetic to see the supposedly brilliant minds
of the country concentrating thier atttention on non-issues
like who is patriotic? who is not? And how is he or she
displaying it? 

There are much more bigger issues like illitreacy, poverty,
malnutrition, infant mortality, economic development....... 
By addressing these issues, we can show our patriotism.

Not through flag waving, be of it any kind.
And not thru branding somebody as less patriotic.


>Can we now report that there some people in india who stay india, get all
>the benifits they can think of as a religious minority and still support
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>other countries on many issues just because they are their co-religionists?
>
>
>-Narain.


Show me an average muslim who got benefited because of belonging
to a religious minority. Let's not talk about non-issues.

-srinivas.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian