HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:01:14 CDT
From:         Joe Moore <CC19@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Anti-Catholicism: "Saul, Saul,

> > Besides, if you open your heart and mind, you might learn something
> > from what Elizabeth is saying.  God's ways are not mine, nor hers,
> > nor yours.  Why are you so quick to judge?
>
We need to judge very carefully anyone who claims the authority of
Jesus directly.  That is why the standard against these messages is
so high.  I haven't studied them enough to draw complete
conclusions, but my only true authorities are God's written Word,
the incarnated Word and God himself.  And I believe that the only
way Jesus will return to this earth to speak directly to anyone is
when he comes 'in like manner' to his ascension.

Joe Moore
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:06:32 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: environmentalism == (neo)paganism

Shouldn't Christianity by and large = environmentalism?

Aren't we after all keepers of this planet?

I know all about the Fall and transmitting ownership rights(or however, one
wishes to state this, caretaker's rights) over, but we still should
be at the front of environmental concerns.

Jason
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:28:49 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus ... OR Pope?

Jesse,

You write, "A true Christian has only one ultimate loyalty and that
is to Christ and Christ alone."  That is true.  However, the question
in your subject line "Jesus ... OR Pope?" is a false dichotomy.
Catholics believe that the pope is the successor of St. Peter and the
man whom Jesus has delegated to be the leader of the Catholic Church.
We accept the authority of the pope because we believe it comes from
Christ.  As Frank Sheed, a noted Catholic author, lecturer and lay
theologian said --I am quoting from memory-- "I am not in the Church
to be with the pope.  I am in the Church to be with Christ.  I accept
the pope because Christ put him there."  You do not believe that
Christ put him there.  That is between you and God.  My point is that
we do believe Christ put him there, so we have no need to choose
between Jesus and the pope.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:37:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Scouting
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

Alison
    Stats notwithstanding, my kids wouldn't go out with _anyone_ I didn't have
the utmost confidence in. God has entrusted Lyn & I to make a lot (not all) of
their early decisions for them. That is one we will make under his guidance.
Mind you, as we live in a small community halfway between a city (sort of)
and the coast, there's no local scout group.
Regards
Ken D.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 13:36:33 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Politics and Holidays

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

>educators advocate more emphasis on gov't control of children.  As a matter
>of fact one educator at a high state level is actually quoted as saying that
>the children belong to them not their parents.  And in case you didn't notice

Could you please state who said educator is and your source?  Thanks.

>bill, not the state.  The Democracts engineered the welfare system that
>awards single parents and does nothing to encourage poor families to stay
>together.  Thank God they are realizing this and making a change in the

Things like this happen no matter who is in the government.  It's called
bureaucracy and it's everywhere.  The government has so many sensless
and sometimes harmful rules and legislations it's scary...even the Republicans.

>welfare system.  The Democracts and like minded liberals want the gov't to
>pay for artists who produce pornographic crap that is bent on tearing down
>society's norms, mainly those that seek to preserve a sense of order and

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.  Art isn't just pretty flowers
or people in homey, Christian scenes.  Art is completely subjective.

>morality.  And there is more.  In schools it is alright to celebrate Halloween
>the most holy day for Satanists, students cannot pray but they can do yoga and
>TM and practice with the Ouija Board.  How's that for a seige mentality?

It is also alright to celebrate Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. in
school, but when was the last time a Jewish holiday was actively celebrated
in public school?  I don't think *any* religion should be allowed to be
practiced, in mass, in a public school.  Separation of Church and State,
remember?  Public schools should be for the public, not just for Christians.
If you want your child to have a Christian education in school, there are
many Christian schools especially for that purpose.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:25:12 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: when the world is new..

Thank you Ian, and Praise God!  I just had to!
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:21:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Netnews and Christia.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Personally, I'd be in favor of closing any automatic gateway between
Christia and Netnews.  I have had posts I made here copied to other nets on
Netnews without my permission.  Now, that's not illegal, but very
unethical.    Most anyone on the uunet can get a gateway so they can
subscribe to Christia or any listserved net.

Dan Graham
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From: 75furlong@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu
Subject: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:50:55 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92081708030230@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET> writes:
>> I think that maybe some people on this list need to have the
>> difference between homosexuality and pedophilia explained.
> 
>    This is the tactic Gays are using.  The fact is that there are HOMOSEXUAL
>    and HETEROSEXUAL pedophiles.  They are not a separate category.  And what
>    about NAMBLA?  They are Homosexuals that want to do away with age consent
>    laws so that they can have sex with young boys.  And there are stats that
>    show most pedophiles are Gay.  I'll be happy to cite the sources tomorrow.

These stats would seem to be in direct conflict with stats that the majority of
incest and child abuse cases involve a HETEROSEXUAL male.

To say that all homosexual men lust after young boys is as absurd and offensive
as saying that all heterosexual men are guilty of incest with their daughters.

-alison 
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:48:54 CDT
From:         Joe Moore <CC19@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bible Defense

> I fully support letting others make their arguments, and I believe that anyone
> who is interested in Inerrancy discussions should listen to everybody with an
> opinion.  I also believe that people should read with a critical eye to
> fallacies.  For people interested in logical flaws and how to spot them, here
> are some useful books:

This point is often not stated correctly, but accepting the Bible as
truth is a logical supposition, not a conclusion.  When people try
to prove it, it's like proving what a point is in mathematics.  We
can give examples that flow logically from it and show that they are
consistent, but we cannot go back and prove the original assertion.
As you say, any attempt to do so results in circular logic.

In all philosophies (or ways of interpreting the world around us),
we make basic assumptions.  The nature of God and the authority of
the Bible are those types of basic assumptions.  An assumption can
be DISproven by showing internal inconsistencies, but an assumption
can never be proven logically.

Don't expect everyone who defends the Bible as authoratative to be
a student of logic.  We don't expect that of people on the other
side of the discussion.

In him,

Joe Moore
From: scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Perfect Numbers
Date: 20 Aug 92 04:14:30 GMT
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University


	I know that this topic is better left to some of the math threads,
but.....

(Darren writes correctly..)>
>The first seven perfect numbers are:
>
>    6    28    496    8128    33550336    8589869056    137438691328
>
>(A mathematical theorem: x is a perfect number if x = 2^(n-1) * (2^n)-1,
> where (2^n)-1 is prime.  So all you need is a prime number generator to give
> you values for n, plug those into the formula, and you'll get all the perfect
> numbers you want.  I'd include some ANSI-compatible C code, but that's rather
> outside the purpose of this group.  If you really want one, send me mail.)

	Also, your number generations will be limited by the max integer for
the particular software (ADA goes to 2^78  I believe) and hardware (word size
for the registers), so you will want to create a couple of, what I call, soft 
registers, by use of an array or linked list...   I know this may sound a
little out of context for this thread....so if you have any questions feel free
to e-mail me.... it's simple.... 

Bill Plunkett
SCSD1055@altair.selu.edu
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:38:12 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Direct Revelation, passe?
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com
              18 Aug 1992 09:26:01 CDT <9208181433.AA08377@motgate.mot.com>

Jesse Carnes writes:

>> 2 Tim 3 says that all Scripture is "breathed out" by the Lord and that it is
>> completely sufficient as pertains to matters of life and faith.

It says **NOTHING** of the sort, Jesse!

2 Tm 3 says:

   ... [15] and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
   which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in
   Christ Jesus.  [16] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
   teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so
   that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If you turn this around, it says that w/o Scripture the man of God is
not thoroughly equipped for every good work.  It says nothing about
Scripture being the only thing necessary, or that Scripture is
"completely sufficient as pertains to matters of life and faith".

Remember, St. Paul was speaking to believers who already had a Church,
"the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tm 3:15).  He is telling
Timothy that Scripture is essential to Christian faith, not that it is
sufficient!

>> If not, then we have no objective, absolute criterion by which to evaluate
>> these "Johnnys come lately" who bring their "direct revelations"
>> with them.

Of course you do.  You have the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the
"one flock, one shepherd" He spoke of in Jn 10:16.

In Him,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:11:08 EDT
From:         WALTER SHERRILL <SHERRIWR@DUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Toleration of Immorality
              18 Aug 1992 15:56:09 -0600 from <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>

Only with the eyes and mind of God can we discern the evil in our own hearts
and in the hearts of others.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:00:23 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

On 08/18/92 at 11:26:59 j.b. cormier said:
>With regards to this:

>For the word of God is living and active.  Sharper than any double-edged
>sword,
> it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;  it judges
> the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  -- Heb 4:12

>I still ask how can this argument count since over half the Bible as we
>know it wasn't written or accepted as Scripture at the time
>Hebrews was written?

That's where faith comes in.  We have to know that God did it his way.

>Jason

        I can accept that answer, but is it wrong of me not to
        have that faith yet?  I can't help it if I don't.  I
        often get the impression from other Christians that I
        am sinning or something because I am not ready to accept
        this aspect of their personal walk.

        What should I do?

        Jason
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:53:52 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jesus speaks

Elizabeth,

Why do these alledged messages of Jesus sound so different from the words
and teachings  of Jesus as told in the scriptures?

                              Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:28:46 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      instructing teens and condems

Tom responds to Kerry
>Kerry--

>stuff deleted

	I think that teenagers should practice abstinance.  I intend to council
my children this way.  But if they should decide to have sex, I will tell them
to make sure that they, and their partner, use proper protection and not to
engage in anything that they feel uncomfortable in doing.


>stuff deleted


I did this...counciled, etc.  My grandchild is due Nov. 4.
My son is 20, I guess he was comfortable with what he was doing. :-)

I don't think distributing condoms would have prevented anything.
IMO, distributing condoms, or my buying them for him, would say, go
ahead and do what you want to do, I think it's okay.  Well, I
don't think it's okay and nothing should be done to encourage
sex outside of marriage.  Yes, okay, protection from disease.
Bah humbug.  Do teenagers really think about that?  They need to
have the values instilled in them.  The only safe protection is
abstinence.  Okay, so some kids don't get this message.  TV and
movies and music tell them otherwise.  Everybody's doing it.
That's a whole nother story.  Condoms are available to anyone
who wants them.  A condom is not a status symbol...just in case
you 'get lucky'.

Okay, enough from an old windbag.  Just how come things that used
to be taboo are now okay?  Do God's laws change with social
conditions?

Rhetorical question.

Carol Nemec
YA67@FERRIS
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:08:05 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: accepting 'sinners'

>        As to foundations, I don't think you'll find a creed or statement of
>of faith that says that one of the foundations of christianity is a prohibition
>against sex out of marriage.  _ Christ _ is our foundation, and a relationship
>with him is christianity.  Christianity is about the do's, not the don't.

I totally agree.  Isn't it more important as Christians
to imitate Christ?  Aside from the fact that Christ is the
only way to get to God and the object in life is to be Christ-
like, I don't think that the Church has or should have any
other "foundations".  Sin is something between the individual
and God.  I think that all too often, Christians (myself
included) worry too much about the actions of other people
and whether or not it is sin, when we should be worried about
the things in our own lives(recall the mote vs. plank parable).

Jason
>Mark
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:32:27 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      what to do about people asking for money
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	I think you raised a good question.  We are told to feed the
hungary, but we know that there are those who use money to support their
alcohol habit.  So what do we do?  I've heard two different suggestions that
I am comfortable with.

	1)  Take them to a center of some kind (The people who have told me
this give the name of a specific organisation.)

	2)  Take them to a store and buy them the food they need, instead of
giving them money.

	I prefer 2) myself.  However, usually I give some money.  Why?  Once
I didn't give somebody anything cause I thought he'd drink it away.  And
sure enough, 10 minutes later I saw him in the store buying something to
drink.  Orange juice.  I felt very ashamed.  Who was I to judge somebody like
that?  I decided to leave that to God.  My only responsibility was to be willing
to help those who came into my life, even if they only came to the periphery
of my life, such as someone standing outside the store asking for some money.

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:01:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Re : Mary & Colour Blue

Following my rrecent posting, I have seen my pet artist.  She tells me
that the blue was chosen because of the existing symbolism.
The particular blue made from the mineral lapis laz. came later
and was chosen because of its clarity and value.

Mary is often portrayed in red dress, blue robe with gold edging
and white head covering.  Each of these is symbolic - in art terms
and in religous terms as well as the two worlds interacted so much.

Blue - colour of heaven, of Gk gods of heaven (Jupiter/Juno), of
	religious feeling, of devotion, of innocence

Red -  colour of passion, of sentiment, of "life giving", of principle,
	of suffering, of sublimation, of love

White - colour of illumination, of revelations, of pardon

Gold - colour of state of glory

C.A.L.

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IT Service,					stated this message contains
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East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 15:57:19 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Religion in schools

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757


>  John -  It's a fine line.  I feel  the Republicans reflect  Christians
>who fight against the current war on Christian belief/expression in the public
>arena.  No one had a problem when Lincoln said in one of his speeches "both
>sides read the same Bible."  The Supreme Court apparently did not have a
>problem with prayers/Bible reading in the schools until 1962.  I think Quayle
>and Buchanan are in some ways right on -- there is a cultural war against
>Judeo-Christian values.  Should Christians be tyrannized by a cultural elite
>intent on filtering out Christian values/expression from the public arena????
>                                                       Rich

The reason why there's a "problem" with bible readings in school now is
because people are finally willing to accept that there really are other
religions out there besides Christianity.  I don't see it as a cultural war
*against* Judeo-Christian values so much as it is a "war" *for* the
freedom of religion, outside Christianity.  That's why the reading of
the bible was taken out of *public* schools.  Since public schools are
for the public, and the public isn't all Christian, reading the bible
in school is an infringement on people's religious rights.  No one is
stopping children from bringing the bible to school and reading to
themselves.
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 09:56:00 EST
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Beggars

How about taking the beggars out for a meal?  Elaine/Buffalo.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:21:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      delightful?

Date: 20-AUG-1992 16:18:18

>A quarter won't buy anything delightful anymore.
>
>Love INC,
>         --Kerry

I assumed the purpose was to reward yourself each time you abstained -
therefore hopefully you'd have a dollar or two after a month  :^).

        Even so - a phone call to a friend is delightful.  A handful of
penny-candy is delightful.  A video game can be dilightful.  It just takes a
bit of imagination.

                                Lora
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