From: johnsd2@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: More Defense of CLI (there, I changed the subject ... )
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:47:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.204843.11547@nwnexus.WA.COM>, kanefsky@halcyon.com (Steve Kanefsky) writes:
|> In article <ewright.719163764@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
|> >In <1992Oct14.214506.1596@nwnexus.WA.COM> kanefsky@halcyon.com (Steve Kanefsky) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >>> Steve> So the graphical interface doesn't guarantee consistency.  In
|> >>> Steve> fact, the amount of consistency is completely independent of the
|> >>> Steve> type of interface.  You can have a completely consistent CLI
|> >>> Steve> (where -o always specifies an output file, for example) or
|> >>> Steve> completely inconsistent GUI's (Windows -- need I say more?)
|> >
|> >>>Yes, but if we're talking about the Mac's UI vs. any CLI I've ever seen
|> >>>(this *is* c.s.MAC.advocacy, after all, though dumping on Windows is a
|> >>>major sport), the Mac's UI is far more consistent.
|> >
|> >>I agree.  Being a fan of CLI's as well as GUI's, that's why I'd like to
|> >>see a Mac CLI.  
|> >
|> >Okay, can someone send Steve a pinup photo of the MPW command line? :-)
|> >
|> >Let's see if I can follow this.  The Macintosh interface isn't perfectly
|> >consistent, but it is far more consistent than any CLI.  The fact that
|> >it is more consistent than any CLI is what makes you want a CLI.
|> 
|> Right.
|> 

<scratch head> Huh? You don't like consistancy?

|> >Am I missing something here?
|> 
|> Dunno.  I think I've shown that a GUI is not inherently more or less
|> consistent than a CLI.

I don't think you have. (but I believe this anyway)

|>  Apple has shown an ability to come up with a
|> consistent interface.  I'd like them to use that ability to come up with
|> a consistent command-line Mac interface (which they are, in fact, doing)

They ARE? :/ I never heard about this. Tell me more, please...

|> because a command-line interface has some advantages over a graphical
|> interface in some areas.  These advantages/disadvantages are completely
|> independent of consistency.  got it now?

Except for the part about liking CLIs cuz GUIs are more
consistant they they are, yeah. I don't agree, but we
are arguing that elsewhere.

[deletia- is GUI Gooey?]

|>      
|> >>It would really bring out the full potential of a CLI.
|> >>I still like UNIX a lot, however, because it offers enourmous power in
|> >>return for its lack of consistency.
|> >
|> >I am constantly amazed at the number of people who believe
|> >that "user hostility" is synonymous with "enormous power."
|> >My definition of computer power is how easy the computer
|> >makes it to do things. 
|> 
|> And if you can't do something at all, it's infinitely difficult, right?
|> Since you can't do some things with the Mac GUI that you can do with
|> some CLI's, those things are infinitely easier to do with a CLI.

No, they are infintely easier to do with that CLI than with the Mac
GUI. It says nothing fundamental about either.

|> I've had about equal experience (8 years worth) with UNIX and the Mac.
|> Do you really think I'd be completely blind to the fact that I'm less
|> efficient with UNIX if that were the case?

No comment. :)

[deletia- About that interface]
|> 
|> >Of course, it's generally better to put tools in a toolbox
|> >instead of menu, anyway.  But this is probably no worse than
|> >most X-Windows interfaces I've seen.
|> 
|> That would have been nice, but it would be very difficult to come up
|> with icons for some of the tools.  There was always the chance they
|> might not be recognizable.  Even a toolbox would still have been
|> cluttered by all the tools.  One of the key aspects of this system was
|> that a system administrator could use it and have a completely different
|> view of things than the average user who just needed to enter some data.
|> The average user didn't even want to know that tools for system
|> administration existed.

Well, use words instead of pictures in your toolbox then.
Or both. I presume you have already moved as many commands
as you can out of the menus and into a direct-manipulation
sorta thing?

|> Things get a little more complicated once you
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^
|> get beyond simple single-user personal computers.
              ^^^^^^

Tho undoubtably true, this is not very usefull to know. :(
[oh I know, nitpicking. But you just covered your bases so well
there I had to say something]

-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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