HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlevy@viper.engin.umich.edu (David W Levy)
Subject: Re: Can a 747 fly for 24hrs ?
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 09:26:58 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Aerospace Engineering, Ann Arbor, MI
Originator: dlevy@viper.engin.umich.edu


In article <1992Oct13.200214.23053@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, rivan@bnr.ca (Robert Ivan) writes:
>  I am just wondering if there is a speed at which a 747 could fly
> for 24 hrs.  Range isn't so much important as time aloft.  Also
> any bets on how much it would cost to charter of of these
> babys for a day.  Im no miliionaire so the cost is moot
> but what the hell I can dream.

Using the trusty Breguet endurance equation:

         E = (L/D/cj)*ln (Wi/Wf)

For a 747-400:

         L/D = maximum = 17  (a guess)
         cj  = .60 lb/lb/hr for an RB211 (at cruise, from Jane's)
         Wi  = OWE + Max fuel = 401,000 + 386,000 lb (from Jane's)
         Wf  = OWE            = 401,000 lb (from Jane's)

I get an endurance of roughly 19 hours.  During the flight, speed would
be reduced as fuel is burned so as to fly at the max L/D.  The engines
would be running at a very low power setting, so I don't know whether
the engine SFC is correct.

Anyway, you're not far from your goal.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: eric@ithaca.com (Eric Wagner)
Subject: Stockton FBO recommendations
Organization: Ithaca Software
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 00:51:01 GMT

I will be going to Stockton, CA in a few days and need a recommendation
for a good "passenger pick up" location.  Has anyone had any experiences
with the "main terminal" vs. Stockton Aviation, Spanos, etc.?

Please email any suggestions.  Thanks.

-- 
Eric Wagner
Ithaca Software
eric@ithaca.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: coggs@Cogwheel.COM (Bob Coggeshall)
Subject: Re: Any comments about the El Al crash?
Reply-To: coggs@Cogwheel.COM
Organization: Cogwheel - Boulder * Hong Kong
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:22:54 GMT

On a 747, Engines #'s 2 & 3 sit quite a ways forward of #'s 1 & 4. Perhaps
problems began with #3, which blew debris into #4 causing it to go too.

There was some mention of his flaps being out. He could have lost all
hydraulics, and/or the flaps went assymetric on him when he tried to
lower them, which would make an already unenviable situaion even worse.

The news today said that Boeing was prompted to issue the Fuse Bolt
inspection because of a very accident with an Air China(?) 747
freighter in Korea(?). Engines #'s 3 & 4 both broke off during climb out.

.c
From: lmiller@aero.org (Lawrence H. Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Rescue Questions
Date: 12 Oct 1992 20:12:34 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: palomar.aero.org

In article <1992Oct12.171914.13429@infonode.ingr.com> nunn@infonode.ingr.com (Gary Nunn) writes:

>I have some general questions regarding aviation and rescue. 

>1. Do small planes have CB radios as a general rule?

	No.  This would be very unusual.  However, the
	individual pilot could have been carrying a
	portable CB.  I personally have never seen a
	pilot do this, though.

>2. Do all or most small planes have aviation type radios?

	Most do.  It is not required, though, in many
	operations, and this pilot may have been using
	a portable CB because the airplane did not have
	radios installed.  Most pilots in this situation,
	though, purchase a hand held aviation band radio.

>3. What would you do in a case like this? ( as far as to search or not)

	My first reaction in reading this was that this was
	a hoax.  However, it's very comforting to know that
	your organization takes its responsibilities seriously.
	I would hope that if I were in such a situation, that
	the response would be to look first, worry about a hoax later.

-- 
Larry Miller		The Aerospace Corporation
lmiller@aero.org	PO Box 92957		
310-336-5597		LA, CA 90009-2957
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: km11480@medtronic.COM (Keith A. Meisel)
Subject: Logging Approaches
Reply-To: km11480@medtronic.COM
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:23:18 GMT

My question regards the logging of approaches for IFR currency.  Is there any
requirement as to how low the minimums are if you are not "under the hood"?
In other words, if I am being vectored in actual IFR conditions at my current
altitude, then are cleared for an approach and break out before even crossing
the final approach fix, and could thus fly the approach VFR, does this still
count as an approach if I complete the approach to MDA, keeping track of
time and all?  

If conditions are above VFR minimums you would have to shift your attention
from the instruments to the outside for traffic avoidance.  But you were cleared 
for an IFR approach.  At the other end of the scale, could you fly the approach 
in VFR conditions down to MDA and log the approach?

This question arises as I plan to fly practice approaches this evening.  FT calls
for ceilings 1000-2000 ft, which are well above MDA, but I will be IFR
at above 3000', which is typical vectoring altitude in the MSP area.  I'd like 
to think I can log the approach even if I don't fly IFR to minimums.
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Stay off the rudder!
Date: 10 Oct 92 16:48:54 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1992Oct6.182419.15342@pony.Ingres.COM>, kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry 
Kurasaki) writes:
> >I just read a new idea (to me), passed along by
> >Greg Travis:  If you get into strong turbulence,
> >IFR, stay off the rudder and you won't get into a spin.

The fact of the matter some aircraft just don't work this way.
The Taylorcraft BC 65 will spin in a stall with your feet flat on
the floor.  Simple enough.


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com
SHO  GOZE
Xref: sparky rec.aviation:16463 rec.aviation.misc:53
From: ewv@craycos.com (Eric Varsanyi)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
Subject: Looking for good GA airport near New Orleans
Date: 7 Oct 92 06:14:25 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

I'm flying to New Orleans on Thursday and am looking for a good place to
tie down (for 5 days or so) and use as a 'base of operations' while visiting
down there.

Lakefront (NEW) charges $6 per landing, $8 per night (sigh). I haven't even
bothered calling New Orleans Intl (MSY). The TCA chart show a couple of
likely candidates: Slidell (6R0) and St John the Baptist (0LA4).

Anyone have any input on the above 2 or any others within about a 45 minute
to 1 hr drive of down town New Orleans?

Any input would be appreciated,
-Eric Varsanyi
 Cray Computer Corporation
 ewv@craycos.com, ewv@vars.com
From: dunn@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Steve Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: SF Bay airshow in October?
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:28:37 GMT
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server

/ hpcc01:rec.aviation / aviva@ultra.com (Aviva Garrett) /  5:42 pm  Oct  5, 1992 /
In article <2810021@hpsad.sad.hp.com> monson@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Tom Monson) writes:
>Did I miss the airshow over SF Bay or is it the Oct 10-11 weekend (or other)?
>Does anybody have the particulars of this show?

>The Moffett Air Show is October 17 and 18. From what we've been
>able to figure out, the Blue Angels will be flying from 3 p.m.
>to 4 p.m. on both days.

You already heard about the Moffett show.  Tomorrow (sorry for the late
notice) is "Fleet Week" on SF Bay.  The plan is for a parade of ships,
including the Abe Lincoln, and a Blue Angel show (probably about 1PM
depending on the fog).

Steve
Xref: sparky rec.aviation:16525 rec.aviation.homebuilt:97
From: klingler@pioneer.unm.edu (David Klingler)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Pitching Moment ... OOPS! (was:Seawinds Sea Plane Kit)
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:59:34 GMT
Organization: Space and Planetary Image Facility

>However, Moving the engine/prop rearward from the Cg can allow for a decreased
>pitching moment for a different reason. As the plane tapers towards the tail
>a prop with a given diameter can be moved down relative to the Cg. Further
>forward the engine pod would have to be higher to clear the fuselage which is
>higher to wrap over passanger's heads.
>
>David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

Nevertheless, I'm not sure I give the designers that much credit.  When the
Seawind first came out, I was just completing a Seahawk (the cantilevered 
biplane amphib).  My first impression was, and still is, that the Seawind was
designed that way to be different.  The designers did not have much experience
designing aircraft, and in the first article I read about the airplane (I
think it was Sport Aviation, the EAA publication) they as much as said they'd
done it that way because it looked neat.

My first thought was, "Yuck.  Giant moment arm.  Tail's been completely 
compromised to hold all that weight and force.  Can't get to the wing from
the cockpit..." and a whole bunch more practical considerations.  The Seahawk
has a long flat turtledeck behind the cockpit that can be used, and the 
thrust centerline is fairly low compared to other amphibs or seaplanes.  In 
my opinion, it's a much better airplane.  

It also has a bush gear, which endeared it to me even more.  My impression is
that the Seahawk (now Seahawker) is a much better plane, and would have much
better flying characteristics.  I don't even remember the range or cruising
speed of the Seawind, but I do seem to remember that the Seahawk came out on
top just about everywhere.  It shouldn't be hard for almost any modern design
to top the Seawind in ease of flying and overall usefulness.

Just my two cents!
Dave Klingler
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild)
Subject: Re: GTE CONTEL DUAT new features (Speed over Internet)
Organization: The MITRE Corp
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:36:24 GMT

In article <...>system@gnd1.wtp.contel.com (Marty Anilane) writes:
>In article <2229@usna.NAVY.MIL>, dfr@usna.navy.mil writes...
>>In article <5314@rosie.NeXT.COM> amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum) writes:
>> 
>>I use Contel from the office over the Internet but it runs at
>>about 1/4 to 1/3 speed in comparison to on the PC with a
>>2400 baud modem. 
>
>Most Internet customers find that the speeds are 2 to 3 times 
>faster because we run the service at 19,200 into the backbone.
>
One more data point.  Our system which has a direct Internet interface
receives and displays data from Contel at least 2-3 times faster than
at home with my 1200 baud modem.  Don't have access to 2400 baud
modem.

Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.misc
From: hjkooy@hkuxb.hku.hk (Drs. H.J. Kooy Jr.)
Subject: Re: NL Runway Naming? (was El Al Boeing crash on Amsterdam)
Organization: The University of Hong Kong
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 07:14:18 GMT

philf@xymox.palo-alto.ca.us (Phil Fernandez) writes:
: Peter Knoppers writes:
: >...
: >airport using the "Zwanenburgbaan" (straight North). The plane
Any plane taking of takes off over Zwanenburg... A little place (by
now part of/encircled by/at least near) Amsterdam. Also known as the
"Bulderbaan", because of the noise caused in the village.
: >...
: >prepare runway 06 (the "Kaagbaan"). With the rather strong wind
Named after the lakes in its flightpath.
: >...
: >"Buitenveldertbaan". (It is assumed that the crew wanted to land
Buitenveldert is an area in Amsterdam (South if I'm not mistaken).
: 
: This is a naming convention with which I'm unfamiliar.  Are these
: names of the runways themselves, or of the approach/departure
: corridors?  Are they used commonly?  Instead of the numeric runway
: heading?  Is this a NL practice, or used elsewhere (non-US, the only
: thing with which I'm familiar :-( )?
This is rather specific dutch, and indicates also in a sense why certain
runways are preferred.
: 
: BTW, Peter -- thanks much for the really good summary of the El Al
: events. 
: 
: pmf
H.J. Kooy (HJKooy@hkuxa.hku.hk) Physics, U Hong Kong,
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: dls@genrad.com (Diana L. Syriac)
Subject: Re: Class III medical exam
Organization: GenRad, Inc.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:12:23 GMT

In article <199210061920.AA03525@tuna.wang.com> DAVID.CARACAPPA@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("David N. Caracappa") writes:
>Yesterday, when my wife went for her Class III medical, the doctor did a
>breast exam (among other things).  We could not think of any flight medical
>reason for this.  Perhaps, we thought, the doctor was just performing a
>screening function.  But if that was the reason, a simple question about when
>the last breast exam had been done (two months ago) could have been sufficient.
>
>Do any of the doctors (or anyone else, for that matter) out there know the
>reason for a breast exam during a Class III  medical?  Did any of the females
>have a breast exam as a part of their medical exam?

I don't think there's any FAA reason why a breast exam would be performed,
however, it's a routine thing for a normal physical for a female, so I don't
think it's out of the ordinary for such a thing.  Also, you gotta consider
what type of doctor it is.  The first time I got my medical I scheduled it
with a GYN/OBY doctor.  You got it, the doctor saw the guys bright and early
in the morning so they wouldn't be embarrassed by sitting with all those
pregnant women with curious eyes.  And, yes, that doctor did do a breast
exam.  He probably figured he was getting paid for a physical, he may as well
give a FULL physical.

Just my opinion.
Diana



->Diana L. Syriac (Carlson) dls@genrad.com	Ham: KC1SP (Sweet Pea)      <-
->I'D RATHER BE FLYING!	P-ASEL, INST		CAP: CPT, Freedom 690 Mobile<-
->AD ASTRA, PER ASPERA				Airplane: C-172 N6513E	    <-
->GenRad, MS/6, 300 Baker Ave, Concord, Mass.  01742  (508)369-4400 x2459   <-
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.homebuilt
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: Pitching Moment ... OOPS! (was:Seawinds Sea Plane Kit)
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:25:48 GMT

In an earlier posting I wrote about pitching moment from high thrustline
engine placement. Marcus Leonard wrote:
> ... I don't think this is right.  The pitching moment due
>to the engine is equal to the thrust multiplied by the distance from the
>thrust line to the CG.  It does not matter where along the thrust line the
>engine is located.

He is right, and I was wrong. I should have done the 2 lines of trig before 
posting and destroying my net.credibility. 

However, Moving the engine/prop rearward from the Cg can allow for a decreased
pitching moment for a different reason. As the plane tapers towards the tail
a prop with a given diameter can be moved down relative to the Cg. Further
forward the engine pod would have to be higher to clear the fuselage which is
higher to wrap over passanger's heads.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: pdb1@ra.msstate.edu (Philip D Bridges)
Subject: Re: Pitching Moment of Seaplane Props
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:45:26 GMT

baldwin@pacific.cps.msu.edu (Reid A Baldwin) writes:
>|> !In what direction is the propeller normal force when the angle of
>|> !attack is positive?
>|> 
>|> Ahh... normal to the thrust line.
>|> 
>|> Dave Rogers

>That tells me what plane the force is in (which I was intelligent
>enough to discern from the name). If the engine thrust line has a
>positive angle of attack, is the normal force upward, downward, or
>directed to the side?

The propeller normal force is upward if the thrust line has a positive
angle of attack. Hank Borst, a propeller consultant in Pennsylvania,
showed me a good demonstration of this. Take a stick and attach
a small plastic propeller on each end. Connect the two propellers
with a rubber band and wind the propellers in opposite directions
so that the rubber band is tightened. If you launch the stick, the
propellers turn and the stick flies through the air. The propeller
thrust pulls it through the air, and the propeller normal force
provides the lift.


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|      Philip Bridges                 |  "Strive for design simplicity:  |
|      Dept. of Aerospace Eng.        |   you never have to fix anything |
|      Miss. State University         |   you leave out."                |
|      (601) 325-3623                 |                                  |
|      pdb1@ra.msstate.edu            |           Bill Lear (1903-1978)  |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hdnea@usho92.hou281.chevron.com (David Neal)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Class III medical exam
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:44:19 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <1992Oct8.204207.23148@exu.ericsson.se> exumfs@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>In article <199210061920.AA03525@tuna.wang.com> DAVID.CARACAPPA@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("David N. Caracappa") writes:
>>Yesterday, when my wife went for her Class III medical, the doctor did a
>>breast exam (among other things).  We could not think of any flight medical
>
>One medical examiner I've used always does a check for hernias.  I couldn't 
>find anything in the FARs to require this either.  I also am quite sure one could
>fly a plane safely with a hernia, if necessary.
>---

Doncha hate those dang things?

Doubly so when they snap on the glove and palpitate the prostrate!

Gives a whole new definition to Slick Willy, no?



Sorry, couldn't resist.  :-)


>Mark Steph              | Like a rare and precious metal Beneath a ton of rock
>exumfs@exu.ericsson.se  | It takes some time and trouble 
>(yes, .se *is* in Texas)| To separate from the stock
>PO Box 833875, MS L-05  | You sometimes have to listen to A lot of useless talk
>Richardson, TX 75083    |      -Neil Peart, "Grand Designs"


-- 
David Neal -- hdnea@hou281.chevron.com 
Conserve water, California's deserts need more cotton farms.
Barbie says, Take quaaludes in gin and go to a disco right away!
 But Ken says, WOO-WOO!!  No credit at ``Mr. Liquor''!!
Xref: sparky rec.aviation:16690 rec.aviation.piloting:146 eunet.aviation:110
From: schneide@scubed.com (Steve Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,rec.aviation.piloting,eunet.aviation
Subject: Re: gear-down check
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:16:51 GMT
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA

In article <0KV7GGK@minnie.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wagner@methusalix.kph.uni-mainz.de (Axel Wagner) writes:
>
>As flying on a US-Army field here in Mainz we have the possibility to
>perform GCA-apporaches during the week. I used this possibility a couple
>of times with our motorglider. The controller had some difficulties in
>picking me up, because the non-metal surface gave only a week signal.
>So he advised me to fly certain headings for identification. While 
>turning final he always requested to perform the landing check, and 
>short prior approaching the decision height he advised 
>'check-gear-down' and asked for field in-sight. 
>
>Obviously there is a check-list for this procedure, because it was always
>the same procedure independent from the controller.
>
>Needless to say, that our motorglider has a fixed gear.
>

I learned to fly at the Alameda Naval Air Station,  where by the way, 
the view of San Francisco made night time pattern work pretty enjoyable.  
The Navy had a small shack at the approach end of the runway.  An enlisted 
man with binoculars was stationed in the shed and was responsible for 
visually checking that each aircraft had its gear down -- if the gear 
weren't down he'd notify the tower which would then issue a gear check 
reminder.  Safety procedures requried the tower to issue the gear check 
reminder whenever the enlisted man was not on duty to provide the visual 
inspection service.

With only a couple of Cessnas based at Alameda,  this procedure seemed 
pretty silly since the controllers knew our aircraft by tail number 
well enough to know which had fixed gear and which didn't.  

One tended to hear 'Gear down and welded' quite a bit around Alameda.

Steve




fixed gear 

noif not he had to call the
.  If the 
-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
Stephen Schneider                 S-CUBED              3398 Carmel Mtn Rd.
schneide@scubed.com           (619) 587-7295           San Diego, CA 92121
From: SNODDI@MVS.SAS.COM (Dale Ingold)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Sharing Flight Expenses
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:03:00 GMT

(This is my first attempt to post since losing our rec. newgroups;
please pardon if it goes awry!)

Here's a variation on the "sharing expenses" conundrum.  All previous
discussion that I have seen implied that the pilot was financially
responsible only for theirself.

If I and my family are accompanied on a flight by a friend, and
should he offer to pay half the expenses, may I let him?  Or must
I split the cost equally amongst ALL the occupants, even though _I_
will be paying for 3 out of the 4 of them?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dale D. Ingold          Wake County Flying Club      snoddi@mvs.sas.com
Treasurer               P.O. Box 80276               919/677-8001 x7603
Scheduling SysOp        Raleigh, NC  27623-0276      919/859-0092 (ans)
From: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Rescue Questions
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:38:49 GMT
Reply-To: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Organization: University of Rochester - Dept of Electrical Engineering


In article <1992Oct12.171914.13429@infonode.ingr.com>, nunn@infonode.ingr.com (Gary Nunn) writes:
|>We had a call last night to search for a possible downed plane. 
|> [...]
|>1. Do small planes have CB radios as a general rule?

Several posters have already said "no" for general aviation. But, in
the ultralight world, CB radios seem to be fairly common. It is
certainly possible that this "pilot" was an ultralight pilot.

|>2. Do all or most small planes have aviation type radios?

Most general aviation aircraft do. But most ultralight aircraft don't
have any radios (at least in my experience).  Some have CB radios, and
a few have aviation radios.

|>3. What would you do in a case like this? ( as far as to search or not)

In addition to the things you did, some other options you might
consider in a similar situation:

   1) Contact the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). They specialize in searching
   for downed aircraft.

   2) Contact the Pulaski airport. Really, you'd want to contact all the
   airports in the area. Because the distress call was on a CB channel,
   you'd be especially interested in any ultralight oriented airports in
   your area.

|>The general feeling after a few hours search was that it was probably
|>a hoax, 

Could well be. If the mike really was being keyed, then you'd think he
really was injured and you'd expect to hear about somebody being
transported to the hospital. If you ignore the keyed mike, then an
ultralight pilot could have sucessfully made an emergency landing in a
field, forgot to call off the emergency he declared, and had a buddy
bring the trailer to haul the ultralight plane back to it's home
airport.

It's not at all uncommon to hear of ultralights suffering engine
failures, and making a sucessfull forced landings in some field. 

If course, it's not at all uncommon for some 10 year old to find Dad's
old CB, and decide to have some fun!


	Del Armstrong

 Fast:      dela@ee.rochester.edu
 Slow:      {decvax,garp,harvard,hombre,rutgers}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dela
 Slowest:   University of Rochester
            Dept. of Electrical Engineering
            Rochester, NY   14627

"What if there were no hypothetical situations?" -Jeff Sauder