HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:18:57 -0600
From:         /PN=MARVIN.MILLER/O=DEAFTEK/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@SPRINT.COM
Subject:      RE: deaf wish

 <"FGJC-5506-7861/36"*/PN=MARVIN.MILLER/O=DEAFTEK/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@sprint.com
 >

This message is in response to BoscoUs ravings about us selfish
deaf people...

> I can't think of a worse thought than for a parent to wish for
> a deaf child. I'm sorry, but it absolutely, utterly sickens me that Deaf
> people should be so selfish that they want to create children
> that fit their own image and culture, to the exclusion of others.

Ok, Bosco... (what kind of name is that, anyway?!) YouUre unfairly
holding us to a double standard here... Hearing people would want
their children to be hearing... Just as African-Americans will want
their children to be African-Americans. You think by
having hearing children, they will have Rthe best of both worldsS-
both hearing and deaf. Have you been living in a some kind of
vacuum?

You know very well that the Deaf community will reject
hearing people trying to be part of their world... There is
a very fine line here that hearing children of deaf parents
can not cross... even though they grew up with deaf familyand
friends. Why do you think most interpreters, as I have been
told by them several times, are RdysfunctionalS?

Its because
when they are growing up, they were accepted by the Deaf
community... until they became an adult. BAM! TheyUre out
of the door. Most sports & recreation events of the Deaf
explicitly state no hearing people can play.

I know this is unfair of us, but this is practiced by white
Americans who unconsciously discriminate against African
Americans.ThatUs the real world. WeUre not the ONLY ones
who are guilty of this. Until the other oppressed groups stop
doing this, you canUt hold us to a double standard here.

Same is true for the deaf adult trying to be a part of the
hearing world. He/she can not be part of the hearing
world 100% because simply he/she is DEAF.

Hearing people
will continue to view us as disabled, something to pity... or
even, someone who NEEDS hearing peopleUs help in
reassuring them they can live independently... I donUt think
any deaf in their right mind will put up with that on a daily
basis - I mean, anyone who has identity & self-esteem.

We may be selfish for thinking that we want Deaf children,
but we know that if the child is Deaf, the child will grow up
with very, very strong self-esteem and sense of identity
since they have deaf parents.
ItUs just as equally as selfish for us men wanting a baby boy,
not girl. But we will still love them if the baby turns out to be
a girl. So will we with our hearing children.

Your remarks is very ethnocentristic, and it sickens me
to see you taking the so-called high road here...

Marvin

MARVIN MILLER                   (313) 539-0768 TTY
CIS: 71302,473
DeafTek: Deaf.Michigander
From: dpizzo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (David Pizzo)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re:      Re: Deafness CURE!
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:02:32 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University


Hi. I would like to share my story with you. My name is David and I am not
deaf or hard of hearing. I am a gay male that has a lover that is severely
hard of hearing. Because of this man I have learned about so much that I
have taken for granted. We recently went on a trip to colorado. We were
driving down a country road when he asked me to pull over. He got out of
the car and walked down to this stream. He grew up in a city so he has
never heard what a stream sounded like. I've always taken my hearing for
granted until that day. We ended up camping out next to it. We also had a
dissagreement over if crickets made noise. He thought I was pulling his leg
until he asked a very good friend if crickets made noise and he told him
yes. Even though it is not legal YET, we have gotten married recently with
all of our family and friends. I have learned sign and we are planing on
adopting a deaf child, if they let us. We also have a serogate mother lined
up. Can anyone tell me what the statistics are on unwanted deaf children
for adoption?

Thanks
David


> 
> I agree with the first point.  I grew up hearing and knew nothing about
> deafness until I realized I would become deaf myself.  I am now deaf and
> still have much to learn.
> 
> On the second point.  It is interesting that hearing does not provide
> ease of communication if one person understands English and the other
> person uderstands French or Spanish.  Please don't forget that ASL is a
> true language and provides ease of communication with others who also
> use it.
> 
> One does not need to experience hearing to appreciate the silence of a
> snowstorm.  My favorite "battery charger" for the last two years was to
> remove my hearing aids and go for longs walks along the seashore.
> 
> Gotta run!  Time for class!!!
> 
>                               Mark  :-)
> 
> 
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:43:52 -0700
From:         "Bryce Carey, CNS,
              Admin. Sys. Group" <CAREY_B@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Missing or incomplete e-mail addresses

Donya writes:

>Hello everyone,
>I have been a silent reader for about a month now; mainly because I have not
>had time.(I know it's a poor excuse.)

On the contrary, that is an excellent excuse!

>Anyway, let me introduce my self my
>name is Donya Head, and I am a student at Kent State University.  I am studying
>Speech Pathology.  I subscribed to this list for a class I'm taking, but I also
>am interested in what the deaf community is interested in.  Some of my closest
>friends are deaf, and they are the reason I chose Speech Pathology as my major.
>I am a hearing person, but please don't hold that against me!!!!!

I am curious as to why so many hearing people who want to associate
with deaf people seem to feel a need to apologize for hearing, or
seem to expect rejection because of their ability to hear.

Donya, why do you feel that some people here will reject your
participation on Deaf-list? Have you had experiences in which
deaf people you have met have rejected you because you were able
to hear? Please do not feel I am grilling you, I am genuinely
curious.

>                                     donya(6751h350@kentvm)

Will someone please provide a complete e-mail address for the
folk writing from Kent State? The address 6751h350@kentvm
is the equivalent of giving a street address but leaving off the
city and state.

For example, my internet address is carey_b@cubldr.colorado.edu

carey_b         is my user name.
cubldr          is the name of the machine where I get mail
colorado.edu    is the routing address for external mail to reach me
                at the University of Colorado at Boulder, Colorado.

Also, many of us get mail without complete return address headers.
This means that unless the sender signs the mail and includes
a return e-mail address we have no way to make private replies.

Welcome to the debate society, Donya.
I certainly will not discriminate against you based on your hearing status.

-Bryce
From: garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: 60 mins story
Date: 12 Nov 1992 16:05:24 GMT
Organization: Smith Undergrad Lab, CWRU, Cleve. OH
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.scl.cwru.edu
X-Post-Machine: solarium.scl.cwru.edu

fak9957@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>5.  Look, as long as there are broken bones, doctors will seek to fix them.
>    As long as there are blind eyes, doctors will seek to fix them. As long
>    as there are diseases, doctors will seek to wipe them out.  And so it
>    goes with ears that are deaf.  But the NAD would have you believe that
>    these doctors along with the cochlear corp and audiologists nationwide
>    are seeking to destroy sign language and deaf culture as we know it today.
>    Don't you believe it for a minute.

	Thank you for saying what I wanted to say so well. :)

	The purpose of doctors is always to fix things that aren't
working right. How you feel about your ears not working correctly
is besides the point. As long as there is one person who WANTS their 
hearing back, doctors are going to do their damndest to make sure
they can help that person. That's their calling and their job.
	If you are quite happy just as you are, then hey, don't go
to a doctor and ask for help restoring your hearing. :-) But why
should you be denied the *choice* just because someone wants to preserve
a culture  and thinks that taking away your choice is the right way
to go about it?

--
	" ...dealing with Free-Net makes me very angry  | Heather "Moose"
and gives me thoughts of breaking things and torturing  | Garvey, Biochem 93'
small animals. "   --  Bruce Ikenaga <bxi@po.cwru.edu>  | <hlg@po.cwru.edu>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:44:29 GMT
From:         Bosco Keown <keown@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject:      Re:60 Minutes

Ref:  Mimi's posting of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:57:56 -0500

Mimi, since I made the implication, I will try and make things
clearer.

I resent such an implication too, but it sometimes has to be made
to remind those few people of their consciences. I like to believe
that everyone involved does make decisions in the best interest
of the child. But I've seen instances where it has simply not
happened, particularly in the UK where the County Councils usually
have a single collective program and where they have neither been prepared
to give the child the choice of education program the parents wanted,
nor to fund it elsewhere because they could not justify the cost or
understand the situation from the parents' point of view.

Regards, Bosco.

Bosco Keown,
CICS/6000 Development,         | VNET     : KEOWN at WINVMC
IBM UK Laboratories, Ltd.,     | IBMIPNET : keown@harpo.hursley.ibm.com
Hursley Park,                  | Internet : keown@vnet.ibm.com
Winchester, England.           | BITNET   : KEOWN at VNET
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:41:00 -0500
Comments:     Warning -- RSCS tag indicates an origin of 11CWATT@GALLUA1
From:         "Keith Watt - Gallaudet Dept. of Education"
              <11CWATT@GALLUA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: deaf wish

>I can't think of a worse thought than for a parent to wish for
>a deaf child. I'm sorry, but it absolutely, utterly sickens me that Deaf
>people should be so selfish that they want to create children
>that fit their own image and culture, to the exclusion of others.


Not upset, just an observation...

Would you be sickened by a Black family that wanted a Black child instead
of a white child?  They want a child that fits "their own image and
culture" - a culture which is as rich and as valid as any other.  Yet
growing up Black in America is not without its struggles too.  A Black
person faces discrimination, underemployment, etc., just as a Deaf person
does.  Yet I doubt many Black families wish for a white baby.

I think Joseph's point is that Deaf cultureis as valid as Black culture or
any other, and therefore it's not unusual that the members of the culture
would wish for a child like themselves.

As I said, just an observation.

Keith

===============================================================================
Keith Watt                              |
Gallaudet University                    | "Exit, pursued by a bear."
Department of Education                 |     Stage direction in Shakespeare's
                                        |     _The Winter's Tale_ (1611)
BITNET:                                 |
11CWATT@GALLUA.BITNET                   |
===============================================================================
From: LEW@TAUNIVM.BITNET (Lew Golan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: chance in lipreading
Date: 5 Nov 92 08:53:02 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Barry says:

>  So, to use Lew Golan's argument that chance does not play a part in
>  lipreading success...

     Whoa.
     I was responding to Ishbel's comment that lipreading is "very
chance-oriented." I said that this description was too extreme.
     However, neither am I claiming the other extreme. I am not saying
chance does not play a part.
     While other factors have much more influence on the outcome than does
chance, there is *some* chance involved.

Lew Golan, Tel-Aviv University <lew@vm.tau.ac.il>
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:58:55 -0500
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From:         "Scott A. Rust" <11SRUST@GALLUA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Telnet address at Gallaudet

>Hi Scott,

>Thank you for your answer.

>1)  How can I get an account to get an access to
>    the Gallaudet network ?

>Cynthia



You can't. There are specific guidelines for obtaining a Vax account
here at Gallaudet. In a nutshell, you must be a student, faculty, staff
or be doing research in and for the university to get on line here. Is
there something specific you're looking for? Maybe I can help you out if
you're interested..... Drop me a line and let me know.


        Scott
        11srust@gallua.gallaudet.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 19:24:29 EDT
From:         EGALE@KENTVM.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Telnet address at Gallaudet
              4 Nov 1992 18:23:00 -0500 from <cclark@CNRI.RESTON.VA.US>

Scott-

Are you saying that you can not get into Gallaudet unless you have a loss
of 70-75 db in the better ear?  Or did I miss read you?

Egale
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: fak9957@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Frank Kruppenbacher)
Subject: Re: 60 Minutes
Reply-To: fak9957@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:24:51 GMT

In article <01GQXCTSGFSG001GRS@JHMAIL.HCF.JHU.EDU>, 
"(Tilak Ratnanather)" <tratnana@EUREKA-GOLD.WBME.JHU.EDU> writes:

>Can anyone who watched the '60 Minutes' documentary this
>evening (Nov 8th 1992) on the controversy of cochlear
>implants please advise me on how to get the transcripts
>of the program. I am told that CBS offer a transcript
>service.
>
		Contact:

		Burrelle's Transcripts
		Box 7
		Livingston, NJ		07039
		1-800-777-TEXT

		For videocassettes:
		1-800-848-3256

Frank Kruppenbacher
National Technical Institute for the Deaf
FAK9957@RITVAX
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 20:06:00 +1300
From:         IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ
Subject:      Re: deaf wish

Lew Golan says:-
>     No matter how you rationalize it, you are saying that your feelings
>and your language are more important than the best interests of your future
>children -- who, if they are born deaf (as you desire), will face a
>lifetime of struggle, frustration, deprivation, discrimination, isolation,
>underachievement and other disadvantages which they would not encounter if
>they were born hearing.
>     Life is tough enough without the added burden of deafness.
>     I wouldn't wish that on anyone -- least of all my own children.

Having a family with parents who are deaf like yourself can very much reduce
the effects of discrimination, deprivation, ad nauseum, that one endures in the
outside world. Also, it would be stupid if your parents deliberately made you
deaf - only God has the power to do that.

Believe me, it is *frustrating* to have your family who talk all the time and
you cannot understand a word of it because they are all hearing people. I
watched a TV programme during Deafness awareness week in NZ that featured a
family was all deaf. The two girls were able to participate in family talks.

I agree that the outside world can be a tough one.

Cheers,
Barry Kirkland.
IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:39:28 -0400
From:         CXLNVD@RITVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Re:60 Minutes

Thanks Steven for your viewpoint.  I defend your right to disagree with
anyone's viewpoints, and I would want to expect the same from others who
might not necessarily agree with what I think or say.

About the decision of the cochlear implantation, don't you think it's
by far the best solution to leave *that* decision with the parents?  It is
your and my responsibility to inform these parents of all the pros and
cons of everything, and I'm sure that these parents reached their decision
with difficult soulsearching and discussions with a lot of other people.
I would be opposed to anyone's interfering with their decision and preventing
them from deciding.

Chris Lehfeldt
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:05:57 IST
From:         Lew Golan <LEW@TAUNIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      deaf wish

Bosco --

     Relax. Don't let Mr. Kotchen's crude choice of words upset you. I'm
sure he's doing the best he can with his circumscribed command of the
English language.
     Furthermore, as peacemakers on the list (from Mimi to Keith) have
wisely said time and again, we've got to be tolerant of different points of
view, such as the one perceived when the caput is rooted in the anterior
extremity of the alimentary canal.

Lew
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:57:47 -0700
From:         I See U! <CONLEYJ@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone in East Boston...?

I thought I'll just simplify how to set up the CC decoder.  To me it is
really easy.  The only thing u have to remember is that the CC is bwt
the source and the screen.

The source in this case would be a VCR, Cable box, Antenna, Wall socket, etc.

The screen in this case would be the TV, or moniter that u will be watching.

For the novice, I would suggest u start with the TV hooked up to the wall.
If the TV is working fine set it to channel 3 or 4, then add the CC.  If that
works, set it on the same nbr as the TV, and now add the VCR, Cable.  Test it
to see if it is working.  How to put them together is described as below:

From the VCR, Cable, Antenna, run a cable wire to the back of the CC where
it says "input from antenna".  The other cable wire goes from the empty hole
to the TV where it says, "input from antenna".  Set the tv on `3' or if that
dont work on `4' (and leave it alone).  That should be it.  For ur info. most
of the country will set the TV on 3; the rest will be on 4.  The "3" and "4"
would be considered 'open channel' so that the VCR, Cable box, CC channel
changer will work.  For the VCR and Cable box to work, both the TV and the CC
must be set to the same nbr, i.e. 3 on TV, and 3 on CC; or 4 on TV, and 4 on
CC.

To use the VCR, or cable box, channel changer, set the CC on `3'.

If u have any trouble still, give me private email, and describe what u did,
and what is wrong, i.e. TV still bluring from the wall socket...

Josh Conley
in::conleyj@cubldr.colorado.edu
From: mcke@unixg.ubc.ca (William McKellin )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re:      Re:60 Minutes
Date: 11 Nov 1992 01:27:56 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

I second the previous caution about questioning the intentions of
parents making any kind of choice like an implant. Though I missed the
program, I had heard that friends of ours from Toronto were on the
program with their daughter. I know that their choice was one made over
several years of consideration and involvement in their daughter's
education.  (Her father also spent many hours as her hockey team's
coach).  

Please give parents the benefit of the doubt. Though even children may
question the results of their parents' decisions, it is another matter
to suggest that parents intentions were misplaced. 


Bill McKellin                             mcke@unixg.ubc.ca
Department of Anthropology and Sociology
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, B.C. 
V6T 1Z1
From: sethg@SILVER.LCS.MIT.EDU ((Seth Gordon))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Anyone in East Boston...?
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:29:01 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              3 Nov 1992 22:48:15 GMT <9211032258.AA13884@silver.lcs.mit.edu>


    This may sound really silly, but I bought a closed caption
    decoder for some friends of mine who don't read or spell
    English very well.

That's not silly at all.  These days, the majority of people who
buy decoders are *hearing* people who are learning English as a
second language.  "True business".
--
seth gordon ... <sethg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>   ... .sig under construction;
mit bs '91  ... learning ctr 4 deaf children ... pardon the inconvenience
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:33:38 EST
From:         "(Esther A. Paris)" <esther@DEMAND.ED.RAY.COM>
Subject:      why I capitalized NOT as in "NOT mention re meningitis"

Hi, please forgive if I misunderstood something else I read here.
I thought someone asked (and I shan't quote because I've had too
much cold medicine lately and my brain is a little fogged in around
the edges) whether the 60 minutes program mentioned that there is
a lower success rate for CI patients who were meningitis victims.
If I misunderstood whoever-it-was's question, I am sorry.  I was
merely trying to answer the question, but I bet it came across as
if the 60 Minutes crew was trying to hide the fact that this little
girl was lucky it worked at all for her and that her parents were
crazy to take the risk.  I meant to imply no such things and I am
very sorry if/that it may have come across that way.  Sorry!  I'll
go climb back into a bottle of DayQuil now... maybe someday I'll
get all of my voice back.  For now I have to be satisfied with
croak cough cough wheeze gasp croak.  You're lucky you don't get
to hear all that when I type messages at you!  I sound a lot healthier
when I type!  Best regards from,

Esther Paris, Raytheon EDL, Marlborough, MA   esther@demand.ed.ray.com
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:06:00 CDT
From:         CONLEY%MSUVX2@MEMSTVX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Re:60 Minutes

        We're back;



        MARK!   EXCELLENT post!   Keep up the good work!
        Tell me more about the Harlan Lane article you mentioned.


                                        (Just curious)
                                        Steven Conlee
                                        CONLEY@MEMSTVX1.MEMST.EDU

>==============================================================================

>        With each passing day I learn the extent of my ignorance.

>==============================================================================
        Cool!... Your philosophy?
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