HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:44:11 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Tektronix Color Printers, Wilsonville, Oregon

Recent arguments seem to perpetuate the popular misconception that the
Constitution prohibits cruel or unusual punishments.  It does not.  To
be unconstitutional, a punishment must be both cruel *and* unusual.
Cruel but usual punishments are acceptable.  (Likewise unusual but
not-cruel punishments, like those meted out by the Lake Oswego judge
who sentences miscreants to give Christmas gifts to the needy.)

Hanging was commonplace when the Constitution was drafted.  Supreme
Court arguments that capital punishment was unconstitutional seemed to
evolve from the "penumbral" interpretations common in decades past,
when jurists created new law in a touchy-feely fashion.

There have surely been egregious miscarriages of justice involving
capital punishment.  But I sleep more soundly knowing that Wesley Dodd
will kill no more little boys.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Capital punishment
Keywords: Arizona, capital punishment, death, method, gas, injection,
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:38:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.8JAN199313382985
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Oregon
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu

referendum
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In one of the more gruesome items in last year's elections, Arizona had a
referendum on the method of execution to be sanctioned by the state.  The
voters chose lethal injection over the gas chamber.  Personally, it reminds me
of Amnon Hennessey's comment, "Never forget that when you vote for the lesser
of two evils you still vote for evil."  As related by Utah Phillips.

							Dan, ad nauseum
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:11:52 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <MS-C.726253721.377401575.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
/I'm glad to hear though that David Barts expresses distrust of the government.
/Perhaps he is now ready to take the next step, which is to realize that the
/government shouldn't be trusted with health care, or with social welfare, or
/with any of the zillion other things liberals want the government to take on.

I'd be happy to hand over my health care to the government, if they first prove
they can run a large program successfully, like our public school system. I
propose we wait and see them fix something simple like our public schools before
they tackle the complexities of health care.
From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Short Fall (was Re: More about Wes)
Date: 9 Jan 93 15:20:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: dogear.Jg94wB4w165w
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

prang@plato.ds.boeing.com (Ron Wanttaja) writes:

> And in case anyone hasn't figured it out yet, the "abdominal motions"
> reported by the witnesses were probably his bowels and bladder voiding.  My
> wife used to work for a vet, and she saw the same types of motions when
> they put animals to sleep.

I wonder if the first thing heard on the way to the afterlife is "Hey
there ain't no toilets in here!"

---
Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
From: alanj@endeavor18.tek.com (Alan Jeddeloh)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Trust Me - I'm from the Government to help you
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:41:23 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.

In article <1554@nazgul.UUCP> bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) writes:
-I'd be happy to hand over my health care to the government, if they first prove
-they can run a large program successfully, like our public school system. I
-propose we wait and see them fix something simple like our public schools before
-they tackle the complexities of health care.

I might point out that the overhead in the Medicaid program is currently
estimated at 4%.  The overhead for private insurance averages 7%.  I recall
the figures from Time magazine.

--
    Alan Jeddeloh      W:(503) 685-2991  H:(503) 292-9740
    Tektronix, Inc.; D/S 60-850; PO Box 1000; Wilsonville, OR 97070
    Alan.Jeddeloh@tek.com 
    You can put the children to bed, but you can't make them sleep!
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:35:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.11JAN199309352073
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Oregon
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <FXARS.93Jan10172213@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu>,
 fxars@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks) writes...
>The argument that it costs more to execute someone than life on parole
>is a red herring.  The cost of appeals does cost more, but that only
>strengthens the argument that the appeals process should be reformed.

Except that there are a series of constitutional issues that have not yet been
addressed in capital punishment.  Personally, I'd rather take the chance that
someone who otherwise might be executed would live than an innocent person
might die.  See the Herrera case in Texas, pending.  Affidavits from an
eyewitness who was not called to testify and a confession from the person the
witness fingered; the state argued that executing a possibly innocent person is
not cruel and unusual.

							Dan, ad nauseum
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:25:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.6JAN199315255276
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Oregon
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <MS-C.726280864.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,
 Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes...
>Well, the hypocrisy of the Clinton administration has already started.  The
>Clintons are sending Chelsea to an expensive private school.  So much for the
>great and gradiose promises.
> 

Chelsea attended public schools in Little Rock.  Please also note that she was
reportedly a major participant in the decision.  She is not being "sent". 

>Bill Clinton knows perfectly well what sending his daughter to public school
>in Washington DC would mean.  After years of ``just throw more tax money and
>all problems will be solved'' mismanagement, public schools are a nightmare; a
>lot happens there, but not very much education.
>                                                                         

Amy Carter went to D.C. public schools.  May I assume you have a negative 
opinion of what happened to her?  :-)

>It's very nice for the Clintons that they can afford to send their child to an
>expensive private school.  Too bad their supposed constituency -- the poor and
>middle class -- don't have the same luxury.  Too bad liberals have vehemently
>opposed giving the poor and middle class that luxury.
> 

OBJECTION!  As an upper middle-class graduate of a private high school, I can
tell you there is such a thing as (limited) financial aid.  Unfortunately,
there isn't enough.

>I wonder if it's time for a Constitutional Amendment forcing all children of
>government officials to attend public school?  That'd get changes made!!
> 

I'm not even going to touch this one.

							Dan, ad nauseum
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: major@shuksan (Mike Schmitt)
Subject: Re: Danger!!!
Organization: Man Machine Systems Technology
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 01:25:44 GMT

Robyn Spady (spady@bcstec.ca.boeing.com) wrote:
: In article <C0Jp2r.9ts@shuksan> major@shuksan (Mike Schmitt) writes:
: >: 
: >: It's a DISCO PARTY with DISCO LIGHTS DISCO MUSIC and a VILLAGE PEOPLE film.
: >
: >  Awright!  I knew I kept my blue silk shirt and white sports jacket and
: >  pants for a reason.  I'm going home and watch "Saturday Night Fever" just
: >  to refresh my memory.....
: 
: SILK!!!!!!  My experience with the infamous disco era was that tacky polyester	(referred to as quiana - I question the spelling) materiel . . . Noone had	taste good enough to warrant silk.
: 


  No hold on thar, li'l lady.  I'll have you know that shirt was 100 purcent
  genuine Hong Kong silk (I know, the buttons kept falling off).  Had the 
  whole outfit hand tailored for me while on vacation from the all-expense
  free trip to southeast asia.  Went well with my leisure suit, too (Oh Gawd!)

  I was the hit of the Disco in downtown Munich.

  
  Wop wop wop wop
  Stayin' alive, stayin' alive
  Wop wop wop wop
  Stayin' aliiiiiiiivvvveee.






  (I don't believe I'm doing this....somebody help me....please.)




 
-- 
Mike Schmitt - Disclaimer: These opinions are not my employer's.  My opinions 
are protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of
America.  No mission too difficult, no sacrifice too great.  Duty first.
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:14:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: oregon.6JAN199315144463
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Oregon
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <8153@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, davide@tekig6.pen.tek.com writes...
>  2. If you are going to take things in the context of the Old Testament,
>     which is where Exodus is located, capital punishment is the *only*
>     punishment given for many crimes.  "You shalt not commit murder" is
>     totally consistent with capital punishment in the Old Testament.

That may be so, but in the Jewish tradition, the procedures for imposition of 
capital punishment had, by the time of the Second Temple, developed such that 
one execution in seventy years would have been considered extensive.

						    	Dan, ad nauseum
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 9 Jan 93 07:28:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1ilurnINNh3n
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu


First off, let me say that I agree with those who say Clinton is
being hypocritical -- IMO he is.

But that's not my main point.  So far, every post about education
in this thread has been obsessed with _schools_.  Pepole seem to
have forgotten how much learning takes place _outside_ of school
and structured class lessons.  Of course, this means that the
child's environment outside of school has to be conducive to learning
and development.  But take a look at the statistics -- both parents
are working now, yet the US spends a shamefully low sum on child
care as compared to the rest of the first world.  Parents should
be able to spend time with their children, yet US workers have the
least vacation of any industrialized nation save Japan.  Maternity
leave?  No luck there either.

And then there's the whole issue of what kind of student one gets
if that child doesn't get enough to eat (and comes to school hungry),
if the parents are unable to take time off work to care for him/her
when s/he is sick (so s/he gets well slower and misses _more_
school), if the child comes from a slumscraper like Cabrini Green
and is more concerned with staying alive than with studying and
getting enough rest, etc., etc., etc.

All this talk about school choice strikes me as one big red herring
(although if truth be told, most of the school-choice proposals
I've seen have defects the size of a small planet).  It's as if
there is a treacherous mountain highway with a very rusted guard
rail (painted white) with rotten support posts and the highway
department comes and paints it metallic silver and trumpets that
all is fixed and safe now (it sure _looks_ different, doesn't it?).

Sorry, I don't think so.
-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 05:54:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: Tomobiki.MS-C.726270852.377401575.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Mike Quigley writes:

> many of those gathered outside the prison
> to SUPPORT THE HANGING where [sic] CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS and RIGHT TO
> LIFERS!

Many of those lighting little candles against the death penalty were also
Christian extremists.  Their headquarters was a local church.

So what is Quigley trying to prove?  It seems absurd to me as an Atheist to
see one Christian group arguing that another Christian group's beliefs and
value systems are absurd.  That's like the pot calling the kettle black;
they're both equally absurd.  If anything, the ``moderates'' are worse than
the ``fundamentalists'' -- at least the fundies have some perception that
they're in a minority and off the deep end.  The ``moderates'' are intolerant
both of the fundies and of the non-religious.

There's been a tremendous propaganda effort by the death penalty antis that
last night was proven to be bullshit.  Dodd's death was not the gruesome
horror that the antis portrayed.  No surprise; it's long been known that death
by hanging is instantaneous when done properly, but science is always ignored
when it interferes with ideology.

Here's another part of the propaganda to debunk: the wierd notion that ``no
other civilized country has the death penalty'' and that by having a death
penalty we are in the company of ``such nations as Iraq, South Africa, the
Soviet Union [never mind that there is no longer such a country] and China.''

This bit of propaganda presupposes that ``civilized country'' is defined as
``country in North America and Western Europe.''  This seems to be a bit
racist to me.  Then again, lefties have never flinched from racism when it has
been useful.  It is racist to label Korea and Japan ``not civilized'', yet
they both have a death penalty.  By hanging in both countries, if I'm not
mistaken.  Isn't it also racist to call Malaysia ``not civilized'', simply
because it takes its drug problem seriously enough to hang drug smugglers?

I'm also not too sure about the use of ``civilized'' to describe Europe.  Now
that the 45 years of enforced good behavior has come to an end, Europeans are
gleefully turning back to ``ethnic cleansing'', neo-Nazism, and religious
warfare throughout the continent.
From: andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Incredible Universe, and Costco
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:21:33 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@frip.wv.tek.com
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Tektronix Color Printers, Wilsonville, Oregon

[]

	"But like Costco and other membership outfits they use that as
	a pre screening tool.  They don't want to give memberships to
	people who may be under a certain income level or of shady
	background ..."

That's not the case here.  Incredible Universe doesn't deny any
membership applications.

	"Finally, they [Cosco] can compile data of shoppers buying
	trends.  This enables them to screen products that they believe
	won't sell.  It enables them to do market analysis with a high
	degree of certainty.  When products quit selling at the level
	that justifies their shelf space they drop the product."

But none of this requires knowledge of the shopper, only of the rate at
which products are selling.  Other big stores do this without invading
their customers' privacy.

  -=- Andrew Klossner  (andrew@frip.wv.tek.com)
                       (uunet!tektronix!frip.WV.TEK!andrew)
From: jerryg@jaiser.rain.com (Jerry Gaiser)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Incredible Universe
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 20:35:25 PST
Organization: Jerry's Attic, Gaston OR

andrew@frip.WV.TEK.COM (Andrew Klossner) writes:

> Incredible Universe is controversial here because they won't let you in
> without a membership card, which they issue.  The application form
> requires you to give quite a bit of personal information.  You must use
> this card each time you make a purchase, so IU can keep a complete list
> of everything you've bought.  Speculation is that they turn this
> information into targeted marking lists.

And you can bet your money that they'll never see me there. I work too hard
to keep my personal information personal to put up with that kind of marketing
technique.

--
Jerry Gaiser (jerryg@jaiser.rain.com)              (voice) 503-359-4017
Fidonet 1:105/380                                    (bbs) 503-359-5111
PBBS n7pwf@n7pwf.or.usa.na
                                                 .. I read banned books ..
From: eris@tc.fluke.COM (Chris Beckmeyer)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:04:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: tc.1993Jan7.230432.5762
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <1993Jan6.165703.27804@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>
>The news last evening did report that Amy Carter was the last child of a President
>to attend public schools in D.C.
>
>allen

i didn't think reagan or bush had school-age children while they were in
office.

chris
From: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton won't send his daughter to public schools
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:33:24 GMT
Reply-To: bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright)
Organization: Zortech, Seattle

In article <13172@sail.LABS.TEK.COM> charlesw@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Charles Wilson) writes:
/A voucher system that would allow people to spend their "school-stamps"
/at the school of their choice is in NO WAY abandoning the public school
/system.  If the public school in my neighborhood was better than any
/private school, I would send my kid their (and thus spend my
/"school-stamps" there).  But it would be MY choice, not the government's.
/What is everyone afraid of?

The NEA is terrified of losing their heavilly subsidized position. If they
had to compete, instead of practically being guaranteed students, they
would have a much harder time blaming their failures on insufficient
funds, family values, etc.
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:24:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1id8soINN61g
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:

>>Okay, I'll admit it - this was flame bait.  But you get my point
>>- I simply can't trust the government (or anyone else that matter)
>>completely enough to give it that kind of life or death power.

>You and I have a basic philosophical difference of opinion here.

> [edited]

>I simply can't trust the government to keep these people locked up. The death
>penalty solves the problem. And since it is applied in this country to only the
>most heinous of crimes, I'm not very worried about it being misapplied. For
>example, Dodd is the first person executed in Washington in 29.5 years. And
>Washington isn't likely to do more than a few a year even if they can figure
>out how to get past the ACLU and the liberal appeals courts.

So the Magic Efficency Dust is scattered more selectively than I
thought.  The Tooth Fairy apparently sprinkles liberal doses all
over the execution chamber while skipping over the Parole Board's
meeting room.

Oh.
-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Charlie Campbell, take heart
Date: 7 Jan 93 10:20:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: Tomobiki.MS-C.726459614.1103527590.mrc
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Mike Lowry has announced that he would sign a bill to abolish the death
penalty in Washington State, and will push for the passage of such a bill.
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: Danger!!!
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:29:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1993Jan8.152952.9064
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

In article <1iid63INNopi@shelley.u.washington.edu>, monaghan@cac.washington.edu (Tracy Monaghan ) writes:
|> From an ad in the U of Washington student newspaper:
|> 
|> It's a DISCO PARTY with DISCO LIGHTS DISCO MUSIC and a VILLAGE PEOPLE film.
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is this "Can't Stop The Music"? If so, by all means go see it. It is one of 
the truly great bad movies. Yes, so bad it's good. One of their big production
numbers is a milk commercial, that's actually very well done, at least from
a "production values" perspective.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
Newsgroups: pnw.general
From: josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam)
Subject: Re: Wesley A. Dodd
Reply-To: Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com
Organization: Happy Man Corp., Vashon Island, WA 98070-7399
Distribution: pnw
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:03:25 GMT

In <1993Jan5.060212.11129@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:

>Dodd wants to be killed, but according to poles in the state of 
>Washington, the majority don't believe in executing Dodd.  

Somehow, though, the electorate decided in favor of restoring the 
death penalty, including hanging, when the Supreme Court stopped 
blocking it.  An interesting forest vs. trees question: how many 
people support the death penalty in the abstract, but would not 
support it in any individual's case regardless of details?  Does
even someone like Dodd produce enough human sympathy to turn
people against execution?

>I find it
>ironic how the State will perform the execution in a manner in which
>Dodd himself killed his victims:  by hanging.  

Actually, from what I've read he strangled them.  Drop-hanging 
kills by breaking the neck, not by strangulation, assuming it's 
done properly.  The slow, gruesome hangings popular in movies are a 
different matter.  If the victim isn't dropped far enough, death is 
by strangulation.  This is what you get in the old Westerns when 
the lynching victim is dropped a few feet from horseback.  I doubt 
any U.S. court would approve this sort of execution.  It is 
undeniably cruel & unusual.  

Back when hanging was much more common, experienced executioners 
compiled tables of how far a person should be dropped based on 
height, weight, and/or build.  I seem to recall reading that 
Washington uses an old military manual for this.  They seem to
have done it right this time, at least, but if they start doing
it a lot, eventual screwups are inevitable.
-- 
 Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com    Happy Man Corp.  206/463-9399 x102
 4410 SW Pt. Robinson Rd., Vashon Island, WA  98070-7399  fax x108
 We publish SOLID VALUE for the intelligent investor.  NextMail OK
Info free; sample $20: Send POSTAL addr: Solid-Value@happy-man.com
Newsgroups: pnw.general