From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Christians at Work in Oregon
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 06:06:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.205908.26811@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:
>In article <1992Sep5.202107.13250@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, lfoard@Turing.ORG
>(Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>
>> But where are the Christians speaking out against OCA?
>
>All over the place, in Oregon and elsewhere.  I suggest you think VERY
>long and hard before you try to claim that organized, denominational
>Christian institutions start stumping against each other in the arena
>of politics.  Non-Christians are very quick to condemn politicized
>sects for engaging in politics -- it is a bit hypocritical to then
>start *asking* for the very same thing (as long as its on the "good"
>side.)

I don't believe in killing, but if I had a gun and a madman was mowing
down a school yard full of kids with an uzi I would kill the guy. 

>I am normally willing to second Jack Carroll's pieces here.  At times
>he provides a very trenchant and apt critique of the mess Christians
>of various stripes have made of family and social and political worlds.
>In other words, the analogy I am about to draw is NOT one that I think
>is generally characteristic of Jack, or of critics of Christians and
>Christianity in general.  HOWEVER, the one thing on the net which seems
>to me closest to the tone of Jack's note here was Clayton Cramer's
>obscenely offensive dumping onto soc.motss demanding that we disavow
>and stomp on NAMBLA and anything that might faintly smack of pederasty.

But there is a difference here, NAMBLA doesn't have a snowballs chance in
hell of getting anything passed. And you do see queer people complaining
about them. If NAMBLA was on the verge of passing legislation and they
repeatedly stated that the spoke for all queers I would do my best to
point out that it is not the case.

>I will not lick the boots of Clayton Cramer.  He has no basis for such
>demands, no understanding of what he is talking about, and an agenda of
>abuse and denigration for anyone HE thinks he can take as a target.  I
>will not, either, indulge in bootlicking anti-Christians who demand that
>I follow THEIR agenda and rhetoric or disappear.  

It is not a threat it is a statement of fact, if OCA speaks unchallenged
for Christians then Christianity will be percieved as supporting the OCA.
I know of churchs that are not that way, but not everyone has been exposed
to liberal Christianity.

>I'm here; I'm Christian;
>I'm queer; get used to it.  Again, I do NOT think that Jack is comparable
>-- in hatred, bigotry or ignorance, nor in potential national disasater
>and disgrace should his agenda become fashionable -- but I suggest he
>should stop using "Christian" in a way that attempts to make us all clones
>of the hate-filled fundamentalists unless we do his bidding in his way.

How can you expect people to believe any differently when the OCA and
republican party represent themselves as the spokemen for your religion.
How are people supposed to know that the liberal church which keeps its
mouth shut is not in agreement with the OCA?

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