From: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.drwho
Subject: Re: Ace...is there a real life comparison?
Keywords: lkjhbkijgfkijgbkjb
Date: 7 Nov 92 15:42:42 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <BxC2G9.Fxv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jasstev@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (stevens jason) writes:

>as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (andrew david simchik) writes:

>>In <BxBDw0.6pp@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jasstev@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (stevens jason) writes:


>>>  Lets get a few things straight here. While the Andrew Simchik debate carries

>>The "Andrew Simchik" debate?  I'm flattered.
> 
> Thats alright. My pleasure.

>>>  on unabated ,Id like to add a few comments about Ace....
>>>  (1) Ihave yet to find somebody who identifies with her through character,
>>>  ie wicked ! excellent! etc. I alos do not know any 19-21 year old females
>>>  as immature as ACE. Perhaops it is the social \circles I keep, but this sort of   Character does not exist.
>>>      The British find her popular (a)  she is female, and she appeals to the 
>>>      dribbling\perverts because they dont have girlfriends themselves
>>>      (b) character development was popular, even in the bad stories. i mean,
>>>      we d just got over bonnie Langford!!!

>>YAY!!!  Not everyone likes Ace!
> 
> Granted. i am not totally enamoured with her either, except I have to say in
> most of the new Adventure novels!!! I was merely stating anti Ace facts in
> this first paragraph; THERE IS NOBODY LIKE THAT IN CONTEMPORARY BRITAIN. So
> heres yet another JNT cockup.
> "the British find her popular" I was speaking on general terms here, there
> are people that dislike her, but they are in the minority. I spoke in general
> terms to save typing for ages on the general objections to her.
> Also, can you really say she was obnoxious after Mel? MMM?

Yeah, I can.  I didn't hate Mel as much as I do Ace.  Mel was just underused
(she was a computer expert, remember); Ace is fully obnoxious.  Mel was
cute; Ace is a terrible tot.  Also, she made sense within the storyline,
instead of without it.

>>>      (2)  Yet there are many who have shared her experiences, so dont knock it.
>>>       Its good we make these things public, too long are we subject to the 
>>>       propaganda that every thing is fine (yes, that is a political statement)
>>>       Ace is just an expression of Thatchers decade, adecade of misery for many  Britons, as the gap between rich & poor got bigger, unemployment rose to levels higher than any govt. since the 30's. From this, we get social unrest, like
>>>       racism, and this was adressed.
>>>       Before anybody clever points out taht Ace would have been growing up in
>>>       her formative years under the recession hit Labour govt., I am aware. But the Ace of the programme is avictim of the social problems exacerbated in the
>>>       1980s, and look like they are getting much worse.

>>Look, social relevance is all very well but it hardly makes for a great
>>character all on its own.  I can knock her as a companion because whether or
>>not you liked her in relation to life *outside* the series, *inside* the
>>series she was damned obnoxious.  If this is what social relevance entails,
>>I don't want it.

>Again, inside the series you cannot relate to Ace at face value. It is her
>"outsideness" within the programme that makes her a identifiable person.
>Secondly, Dr Who has only preached as such in the Pertwee era (Green Death &
>Invasion of the Dinosaurs). As somebody who agrees wholeheartedly with what is
>said social relevance can become a functional part of science fiction. There is
>politics in evrything around you, intended or not.
>If you dont want it thats your prerogative, and thats fine. But do you think
>the show would have lasted 26 years without taking new paths, some for thje 
>best, some for the worse.

Everyone says that because of <insert argument here>, the show lasted 26
years.  It lasted 26 years because People Loved It.  End of story.  Note
that it ended soon after Ace arrived.
Ace doesn't preach.  Preaching is OK.  Ace is merely there, a token
contemporary.  "The Green Death" struck me as being about industrial
pollution...Ace didn't even strike me until someone described her relevance
to Modern Britain.  So she's only relevant to those who know the
situation...and that's ineffective as preaching.
Social relevance can be a part of sci-fi, when used properly. Unlike here.

>Admittedly Ace could have been a better character, and I would have preferred
>somebody else. We didnt get him/her. So basically we are left with an unrealistiic character with identifiable values. at least this makes her 2.5D compared to
>the 2 dimensional characters like that awful Jo Grant, yuk.

At least Jo wasn't obnoxious.  We could ignore her and concentrate on the
real character, the Doctor.  But Ace is shoved in our faces.

>>>       So in one way Ace is not real at all. Her identificatiopn comes with her experiences for the British, and I fully applaud DrWho for addressing it. It may be scifi, but theres no use in sweeeping it all under the carpet to be ignored,
>>>       hell, thats how the problmes got worse in the first place.

>>>       Jason.

>>>       Final point: I am glad I got out of England for a year, because the sit-
>>>       uation was getting worse. But You can never run away, you will have to 
>>>       confront the problems of the world and deal with them.
>>>       What do you think the Doctor was trying to do in Ghost Light?
>>>       Think on it.

>>Again: all very nice, but Dr. Who is less than effective as an allegory.
>  True. But it can still attempt to be it, some times it works, some times it
>  doesnt. It isnt The Prisoner, so no it wont totally work.        
>  This has gone slightly off line, I am arguing that as acharcter to watch, fulll stop, Ace was not great (bring back K9, sigh), there are no British equivalents in the female 20s, BUT, Ace did represent some of the social problems that    befall the youth of today. Without that, Ace would have been another Jo Grant,
>  and that makes me shudder.

You bet your arse it isn't the Prisoner.

>  30/15, return the serve!!!!!

If you hadn't written this last I could have let go without following up, as
I have the last debate.  30/15?  Do you really think you're making points
here?  Sorry, that's not what I see.

Drewcifer