HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:23:54 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Kozol & Frank Doherty

I want to respond to Frank Doherty's plea for grounding,
or at least combining, public education with moral and spiritual
doctrine, vision, and discipline.  And no, Frank, I do not want
"shoot."  The idea of education grounded in the traditions of
a specific community is attractive in many ways.  Oldenquist's
(first name?) argument for the necessity of loyalties,
the Aristotelian turn in moral philosophy, and the communitarian
social, political, and moral philosophic themes currently
being explored all suggest the importance of some sort of
"thick" tradition.
   However, there is no reason why that tradition need be
evangelical christianity.  Why not Islam, Catholicism,
Judaism, Buddhism, or New Age Spirituality?  Why not a
particularly rich brand of secular humanism?  The sorts of
goals Mr. Doherty has in mind seem attainable through any
of these routes. Remember the African American Nation of Islam
and its child centered educational discipline and cohesion.
   Arguing that we need a spiritual/moral tradition fused with
education  begs the question.
Whose religion? Whose vision or tradition? How constructed,
justified, imposed?
   As for the Russian case, some questions.  Could not the

traditions of the party and state be "thick" enough?  Don't
you think that for many the Party provided exactly the sorts
of cohesion Mr. Doherty seeks?  Of course some, perhaps most
were disenchanted.  Would not the same be true under a
theocracy?
   Mr. Doherty has raised an interesting question
about the relationship between cultural-religious-
moral traditions and education.
    ********************************************************
    *                   Thomas Mauhs-Pugh                  *
    *         Cultural Foundations of Education            *
    *                                                      *
    *    259 Huntington Hall         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET    *
    *    Syracuse University       TJPUGH@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU *
    *    Syracuse, New York                                *
    *                 13244        (315) 478-3319          *
    ********************************************************
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:01:41 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         ADM_FDOHERTY@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Kozol

I always enjoy reading Ann Pemberton's responses to some of my diabribes.
Sometimes I even agree.  I think her thoughts about the Russians substituting
GOD for THE STATE might be correct if the Russians simply enforce a CHRISTIAN
set of values for THE STATE.  Simply enforcing an external code on individuals
will often result in a change in behavior, but often not in the inward person.
I am not opposed to the government imposing some rules on folks if these rules
are for the common good and are in agreement with some good standard.  That's
why I am pro-life.  We need to protect the most vulnerable of our society no
matter what people think.

I was thinking last night about what I said yesterday, and I remembered a most
important thought that relates to what the Russians are doing.  The major
problem with society is not what is wrong with the schools or crime or the
breakdown in the family.  All these are symptoms of a greater problem--the
problem of the heart.  Individuals cannot be really changed by imposing some
external codes.  The real change must come within ourselves.  In our most
honest moments we must admit that our hearts are capable of almost any type of
evil behavior.  What the Russians are doing is encouraging in their schools the
teaching of a value system which states that it (He) can produce radical
changes in the inner person and change this evil heart.  If the Russians fail
to emphasize this need change in the heart, this great new experiment will fail.

Ann, I too was raised in the Catholic Church and attended both public and
private parochial schools.  I too rejected much of what I learned there because
it really did not help when I needed it.  It did not help because the basic
theology did not have the power to affect real change within me.  It was not
until I understood the need for a radical change within me that I began to
change.  The change was not because of any power I had within myself, but
through a relationship with a Creator who said He had come to cause a rebirth
within me.

If the Russians can correctly educate their children and others about the inner
change that must occur, they have the possibility of resurrecting a culture
that can put the West to shame.  They are attempting to do it in their schools
and the military (Yes, the military.  The are actually asking evangelical
Christians to show them how to encorporate Christian values into the officer
training!!).  I wish them God speed.

Frank Doherty
James Madison University
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 12:07:53 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         U56E3@WVNVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: reply

It's telling that our discussion of savage inequalities has proceeded through
denial (nothing to be done--poorly funded schools need 10 times the funding,
not just equal funding) to diversion (fix the "problems" of society) to
the mystical (spiritual education).  This is what we Americans always do:
"Magic and science--all for free."  A curious tale.



From:  Craig Howley
       ERIC Clearinghouse on Rural Education and Small Schools
       P.O. Box 1348
       1031 Quarrier Street
       Charleston, WV  25325-1348
Phone: 800/624-9120
FAX:   304/347-0487
email: u56e3.wvnvm.wvnet.edu
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:24:17 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         ADM_FDOHERTY@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Good hearts

I again attempt to stick my neck out and discuss what is on my heart about this
important discussion.  John wants some explanation of what is a "good heart"
and whether this "good heart" is only available to some.  Actually, Rose gave a
beautiful explanation of how she understands the need for a new heart.  I
definitely agree with her.

I would like to try to explain an even deeper issue, I think, than what is a
"good heart."  It's really not deeper, just another angle.  I think what really
angers many folks on this list is that some people would claim that there is
really only "one way" to think about important subjects like religion and how
it should relate to people.

I'm afraid I must stop because they just came to install my computer on the
network.  I'll get back soon.

Frank Doherty
James Madison University
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:57:52 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Jane Clark Lindle <JCLIND00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Spiritual Values

I tried this last summer or spring, and I'm not really hopeful we CAN do
this, but here goes.....
Can someone list for me the major religions and the "competing"
spiritual values?
I notice that someone already asked the question and didn't really get a
response.  The last time I asked the question, I got a list of social
issues where people of the same religion might come down on both sides.
My point is, I don't think the basic tenets of religions compete.  I
believe that sometimes social issues demonstrate that within the tenets
themselves there is competition.  Mr. Jefferson did not suggest A
religion, but did list some democratic values in numerous  documents.
These values themselves compete. My favorite example for my students is
the competition between our democratic beliefs in individual rights and
majority rule. P.L. 94-142 has set up a number of interesting situations
in which what is optimal education for a particular child can place many
other students at-risk educationally.  Teachers face the individual
rights/good of the majority question daily in a constant barrage of
dilemmas which require judgement on one side or the other. The whole
issue raised by Kozol is fundamentally the same dilemma of democracy.
What seems beneficial for a majority is fundamentally a blight on the
individual rights of a significant minority. The question we face as a
democratic society is a perennial one --- how can we achieve a balance
in the structure/financing of schooling which benefits the whole? And
can we claim benefit to the whole when a significant minority is
adversely affected and their individualy rights denied?  I want to
emphasize that this is a question of political and social ideology, not
spirituality.  I believe that Mr. Jefferson would couch his argument the
same way --- after all he needed the support of various subgroups of
Christians to promote his political agenda and could not afford to let

the debate erode into mega questions of doctrine or doctrinal
differences which are in the long run unanaswerable without an appeal to
faith.  The immediacy of the social and educational problems we face
might be improved with  some attention to the ideology of our political
and social systems, but will only be delayedby appeals to the
mystical.....Jane Clark Lindle, University of Kentucky,
JCLIND00@UKCC.UKY.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:45:20 CST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         rose allinder <SECD003@UNLVM.BITNET>

 It is with trepidation that I start writing because I believe there may be
questions/comments that I will not be able to answer.  Nonetheless, here goes.
 A query was put forth regarding good hearts being specific to only some.  S
Surely, there are varying degress of "goodness" and "badness" in every religion
, belief system, etc.  This can sink into "My religion, belief system, etc. is
better than your religion, . . . "  when we are pretty much the same.
  The problem for me was reconciling what my religion taught me "we should all
always behave in perfectly right, good, and ethical ways) with reality (no one
always behaves in a perfectly right, good, or ethical way).  Couldn't do it.
 ReMy focus had to change from religion (which can be the great guide or a gian
giant rroadblock) to a change in my heart/life/soul whatever you want to call i
it.  Change was not to one made perfect, but to an acknowledgement that there
is One who is perfectly good, right, just and who has provided a way to recon-
cile me with Himself and who draws me into a relationship with Him.
  I recognize that this is not a deeply philosophical response to the issue
being discussed. As a Christian, this is the way I have responed to the quest f
for understanding some of these issues.  ive, hopefully it will not be.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:52:42 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      reply

Query: Does the reasoning of Frank Dougherty and Rose Allinder commit us to
the proposition that there are no Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, or atheists who
are "of good heart"?


****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:30:14 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET

Those who believe that religious doctrine should be part of their children's
schooling have long been free to withdraw their children for home schooling
and/or the creation of sectarian schools.  Perhaps the most visible example of
this is the Catholic school system, founded not because the schools were
neutral on matters of doctrine, but because the religious doctrines that were
part of instruction were offensive to devout Catholics.  The fact that Bruce,
I or anyone else might feel the need for our children to have doctrinally
specific instruction (as opposed to moral and ethical instruction) is indeed
why some people choose not to send their children to public schools, and their
freedom to do so is recognized in law; I am not at all clear how this argues
that public schools ought to be teaching a set of religious doctrines to
children from families with different beliefs, and doing so at public expense.
The claim is not that children should not be taught Christianity (which branch,
I wonder); the claim is that the tax dollars of Jews, Buddhists, Muslims,
atheists, agnostics, other branches of Christianity, and others should not be
used in publically funded institutions for this purpose.  Nor am I yet satis-
fied with the suggestion that only believers of a certain type can be "of good
heart", a claim which seems to underlie a lot of this discussion, but not yet
to have been explicated and defended.


****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:50:02 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         GLASS GENE V <glass@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Clinton and America 2000
              "Kevin@LEMOORE.ATI.COM" at Nov 17, 92 9:25 pm

   What will happen to America 2000 under President Clinton?
 Well, remember this--and it is shocking to contemplate.
 America 2000 is a lot more Bill CLinton's than it is George Bush's.
 The White House plan known as America 2000 evolved out of the
 Governors' conferences of the late 80s and early 90s. Recall the
 famous Charlottesville summit conference on education where
 Bush showed up to proclaim America 2000? He gave out nothing but
 what the governors had already proposed and it is widely known that
 the governors' work was led by Clinton.
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 12:25:39 +1100
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Chris.Bigum@DEAKIN.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: An Invitation to participate in an Electronic
              Salon: Re-Articulating Education & the New Information
              Technologies
              12 Nov 1992 07:49:09 EST

The other day Bill Stillwell wrote:

>One or more groups within AERA should adopt the electronic salon paradigm
>for their portion of the conference.

Not sure about a paradigm but I learned about the model from two such 'events'
earlier this year. Can I quote from the welcoming message of the current
E-Salon.

_Beginnings/origins_
The idea for this Salon and its operation comes from our experience of an
electronic symposium and an Electronic Salon that were conducted earlier in
1992: "Electronic Salon: Feminism Meets Infotech" part of the 11th Annual
Gender Studies Symposium, Lewis and Clark College, Portland OREGON in April
(for which we believe the term Electronic Salon was coined); and the Networks
and Knowledge Symposium held at Georgia Institute of Technology in May which
involved the virtualities of the TECHNOCULTURE' discussion list
<TNC@GITVM1.BITNET>.

Both the symposium and salon were run in conjunction with a face-to-face
gathering. The E-Salon made papers available via anonymous ftp prior to the
discussions.

Chris Bigum
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:27:35 PST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Kevin@LEMOORE.ATI.COM
Subject:      Re: moral and spiritual values?

In Regards to your letter <9211180258.AA04503@apple.com>:
> Just a small correction: the policy in public schools is that Christianity
> cannot be advocated, or taught as true; it can be discussed.  Public education
> must be neutral in a plural society, not antagonistic to the values (though
> some doctrines of some sects, e.g., creationism, may be presented as
> contrary to available evidence).

It is interesting in California. The Science frameworks says you can't
touch religion. Yet, the Social Studies frameworks strongly encourages
such discussions. So, in one one class you are not to mention creationism,
and yet in another ...  So much for integration!

*************************
Kevin Kurtz
Kevin@lemoore.ati.com
Lemoore, CA, USA
fax (209) 924 - 5975
voice (209) 924 - 3479
*************************
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:25:32 PST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Kevin@LEMOORE.ATI.COM
Subject:      Re: Clinton and America 2000

In Regards to your letter <9211180358.AA10247@apple.com>:
> Clinton should trash America 2000. He probably won't but he should.
>
I hope he won't trash the entire thing. After reading up a bit on
it (and only a bit) I believe that there are some super things in
the program. The community relationship aspects, for example, is something
that has been needed for a long time. If our schools are to become
a positive and supported institution of our communities, then community
members must be involved in the planning and support.

*************************
Kevin Kurtz
Kevin@lemoore.ati.com
Lemoore, CA, USA
fax (209) 924 - 5975
voice (209) 924 - 3479
*************************
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 12:58:25 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "this is cracker soul." <U94_DBELSON@SITVXC.BITNET>
Subject:      Term Paper Assistance?

        This semester I am taking a "Computers and Society" course.  I am
currently in the process of researching and gathering information for a
term paper that I am doing on the topic of "Computers and Education".  In
keeping with the topic, I am attempting to do a large portion of this
research over the Internet.  This is where I need your help.  Below, I have
attached a brief outline of what I hope to cover in my paper.  If you have
any experiences or information in these areas, or can point me to telnet or
ftp sites where I can find information, please send me e-mail at
U94_DBELSON@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU     In addition, please feel free to
forward copies of this letter to any of your colleagues that you feel might
be able to help me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

       What are the logistics of computerizing a school?
            -Planning
            -Timing
            -Costs
            -Educational Level
       What possible problems may be encountered in computerizing a school?
            -Compatibility
            -Obsolescence
       What problems have those involved already encountered?


       How can computers be used in the classroom in a supplementary fashion?
            -Educational Level
            -Tutorials
            -Simulations
            -Exercises
       How can computers be used "at home" to supplement in-class learning?


       How is the Internet utilized as an educational resource?
            -Mailing Lists
            -Telnet sites with information/library catalogs, etc.
            -FTP sites
            -Usenet News
       What educational resources are currently available over the Internet?
       How might the Internet be useful above and beyond "traditional
       education"?
            -communication across country/world
            -student <-> student
            -teacher <-> teacher
            -administrator <-> administrator

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks in advance for your help!

David Belson - U94_DBELSON@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU
Box S-116
Stevens Institute of Technology
Hoboken, NJ 07030
(201) 216-3541
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:10:00 CST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         FRITZ <HAASFM@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Kozol

   The emotional issues have a "limited life"?  Perhaps for some, but for
others these issues go to the grave with them.  I think that when the true
nature of our humanity is assesed, these needs are, in fact, the most im-
portant ones and anytime they are overlooked trouble ensues.
From: AORXS@ASUACAD.BITNET (bob stout)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edpolyan
Subject: (no subject given)
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:38:48 GMT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
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What should Bill Clinton do about America 2000?

Robert T. Stout
Arizona State University
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 08:28:26 -0700
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Billie Hughes <bhughes@PC2.PC.MARICOPA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Kozol

Thank you Ann for stating ver eloquently what I could not find the words
to express.

**************************************************************************
Billie Hughes, Phoenix College                          Phoenix, Arizona
Guide-from-the-Side                                     1202 W. Thomas Rd.
BITNET:  bhughes@pc2                                     Phx, AZ 85013
INTERNET: bhughes@pc2.pc.maricopa.edu                   (602)285-7428
**************************************************************************
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