HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keith@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Keith Boyd)
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:17:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.223431.4626@convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com (Jenifer L. Johnson) writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>I'll be in Austin for the Conference and for the debate, so I can post a
>followup as to whether any of those ~700 noble, level-headed hunters could
>muster the conviction and the courage to stand up to a bunch of gullible,
>Bambi-worshipping vegetarians.  My guess is that the hunters will prove
>themselves to be the cowards we AR folks suspect they are.

Let's see....Russell Lawrence contends that hunters like to hunt because
it makes us feel "macho" and adds to our "manliness". 

Jennifer Johnson contends that AR folks suspect that we (hunters) are
all a bunch of cowards.
 
Can't you people get your opinions together??

No wonder no noble, level-headed hunter would want to get up and debate  
AR fanatics. At least most hunters are of the opinion that AR folks are
a bunch of gullible, Bambi-worshipping vegetarians. ;-)

Keith


>
>-- 
> Jennifer L. Johnson | "Those who kill animals for food will be more prone 
> jjohnson@convex.com |  than vegetarians to torture and kill their fellow
>	IWTFM	     |  men."  		--Pythagoras 

Having a bad "hair" day, Jennifer?


-- 
| Keith M. Boyd  (NCR MCPD Cola.) | Nothing could be finer than huntin' and  |
| 3325 Platt Springs Rd.          |    and fishin' in South Carolina! -Me-   | 
| West Cola., S.C. 29170 |   GO BRAVES!!     | keith.boyd@columbiasc.NCR.COM |
| Vp: 803-791-6419 or 6455    | From uunet: uunet!ncrcom!ncrcae!clodii!keith | 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Should humans assign "status"?
Organization: WP Group
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:23:23 GMT

From article <1992Sep30.212654.4154@pixel.kodak.com>, by young@serum.kodak.com:
ry> What we're talking about is the relationship of one animal (humans)
ry> with the other living things with which it finds itself surrounded.
ry> I may well protect, feed, and support my kidney-dead brother, but I
ry> may also kill the last elephant on earth to do it...if that is the
ry> only reasonable option.
ry> 
ry> Thus, INTRA-species ethics are clearly different from the INTER-species
ry> ethics we are discussing.  The determination of INTER-species ethics
ry> based on structural similarity is an anthropocentric attempt to
ry> apply INTRA-species ethical principles to a world which neither needs
ry> nor values human thought.

It seems to me that your distinction between "INTER-species ethics"
and "INTRA-species ethics" is a transparent attempt to define-away 
the inconsistencies in your argument.  

Without "assigning" your own Rich-Young-ocentric values on other
beings, what makes you think that your statements about what the
"world" thinks and values are truly accurate? 

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:20:27 GMT

Jennifer L. Johnson writes:

>I hated hunters long before there _was_ an AR movement.  Nobody convinced me
>to view hunters as cowardly scum, and no hunter has ever given me reason to
>doubt that assessment.      ^^^^

You seem a bit Dreameresque in your choice of words. :-)  But do you
really hate hunters as much as you say?  I'd sooner think the
rabidness stems from pent-up frustrations at not being able to direct
a smaller amount of hatred at a truer source (e.g., a parent that eats
meat or something).  Just the observation of an old mountain man that
used to date a couple of AR-type ladies.  Their friends all seemed to
want to claw my eyes out, but never said a word while their Mom and
Dad scarfed down the Veal Scallopini.  It also puzzled me how cruely
these friends treated the girls for hanging around with me, when their
SOs all ate Frank's chickens and veal and such, and that was OK.  But
that gets back to the denial that people in McD's have killed animals
to get the Big Mac... and I'm way off on a tangent.
     It must be a tough life (you folks genuinely have my sympathy),
but please try to remember that hunters care a lot about pain and
suffering, and we want to reduce it, as much as possible.


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:50:18 GMT

John Robinson writes to Jennifer Johnson:

>So.  You hate hunters.  Presumably you hate hunters as a group.  Hate is a
>powerful and dangerous emotion.  By reason of the fact that hate, as an 
>emotion, contains a large degree of irrationality, hate gives the one or 
>ones who are hated a certain degree of power over the hater.  It gives the 
>hated the power to upset, irritate, and intensify the hate, and thus the 
>insanity associated with it.  Thus hate, like love, should never be given 
>lightly.  Nor should it give directed at a group.  It is best not to hate 
>at all, but if one must hate, one should only hate individuals, not groups. 
> Furthermore, hate implies a certain degree of knowledge about the one who 
>is hated.  Perhaps you hate your own internal stereotype of what hunters 
>are, but you do not hate all hunters, for you do not know all those who 
>hunt.  Your stereotype is a part of who and what you are, so in some sense 
>I think it is probably more accurate to say you hate yourself, and therein 
>lies maddness and dispair.

John, I agree with you that such hatred is of an ill-conceived
stereotype.  But have you ever noticed just how strong this emotion is
in our AR friends?  It strikes me that the roots lie even deeper than
you allude.  Could it not be that the hatred does indeed come from a
hatred of oneself, simply because the true targets of the hatred
(friends and loved ones that aren't AR-types) cannot be hated easily,
in addition to the cause you mention above?  All this emotion seems to
build up to a tidal wave which spews forth at the only source readily
available to vent it (ironically hunters -- the biggest pro-animal
group around).


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:53:12 GMT

In article <gdlzxbk@rpi.edu> vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writ
es:

[...]

>John, I agree with you that such hatred is of an ill-conceived
>stereotype.  But have you ever noticed just how strong this emotion is
>in our AR friends?  It strikes me that the roots lie even deeper than
>you allude.  Could it not be that the hatred does indeed come from a
>hatred of oneself, simply because the true targets of the hatred
>(friends and loved ones that aren't AR-types) cannot be hated easily,
>in addition to the cause you mention above?  All this emotion seems to
>build up to a tidal wave which spews forth at the only source readily
>available to vent it (ironically hunters -- the biggest pro-animal
>group around).
>******************************************************************************
>               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
>       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
>       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--

Two points and a question:  1)  People, especially people who live in
urban areas, will not know many hunters nowadays.  The stereotype is
easily made--Jennifer probably (I hope) likes many people she knows who are
meat eaters, obviously they just didn't personally kill their lunch;
2)  in spite of the almost unanimous good sense and tolerance
exhibited by the hunters in this group with their lofty goals of only
hunting what they eat and aiming for a quick kill there are slob hunters
out there who a) enjoy killing and b) could care less if the animals
suffers when they kill;
3)  I have such a fellow who hunts on the farmland I rent.  I suspect
he is up in his deer stand drinking beer while he waits for his deer.
I am not saying that he is drunk; he probably puts down a 12 pack per
day regardless of whether he is hunting or not.  Because I am not a
hunter I want to know if among hunters drinking beer while hunting is
just considered "slob hunting" or in fact is illegal in certain states?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Hunters needed
Organization: WP Group
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:10:16 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.045404.9699@cbfsb.cb.att.com> motto@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto) writes:
mo> Russell has also commented that hunting is supposed to be perceived as
mo> "manly" and "macho" and necessary to some men to foster development of
mo> lagging self-concepts.
mo> 
mo> Russell, how does this apply to me?

From article <1992Oct05.194733.13220@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, by keith@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Keith Boyd):
kb> Don't bother asking Russell this question, Mary. I already pointed out
kb> to him that there are quite a number of female hunters around today.
kb> His only response was to ask how many. A tactic to avoid the subject,
kb> no doubt.

Not at all.  I really would like to know the stats on female hunters.

kb> They (AR types) can call male hunters cowards all day long,
kb> but when a female admits to enjoy hunting, they are clueless for a 
kb> comeback to the "macho" issue. It just blows their argument out of the
kb> water, but they will not admit it. 

You're dreaming.  Read on.

kb> One of the main reasons for hunting
kb> is to experience the elements. The success of a kill only adds to that
kb> experience, like the icing on a cake. Do you think they will ever accept
kb> this??  I don't.                                                       

Let me refresh your memory:

In article <1992Sep30.201717.9152@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, you wrote:
=======================================================================
kb> Let's see....Russell Lawrence contends that hunters like to hunt 
kb> because it makes us feel "macho" and adds to our "manliness". 
kb> 
kb> Jennifer Johnson contends that AR folks suspect that we (hunters) are
kb> all a bunch of cowards.
kb>  
kb> Can't you people get your opinions together??
=======================================================================

Here's my 09/30/92 response, from Message-ID: <BvFF67.8E3@wpg.com>:

=======================================================================
I'm not saying that all hunters are drawn to the activity because 
of wannabe "macho" cravings, but many of the hunters that I've 
known over the years appeared to have that goal in mind.  It 
seems to me that those individuals, as well as hunters as a 
whole, would benefit greatly if the insecure guys would muster up 
the courage to come to terms with whatever forces are driving 
them emotionally.  I'm sure you'll agree with me that no amount 
of bodybuilding, "manly" hunting, and "pervert" name-calling is 
going to truly coverup a man's private fears.
=======================================================================

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Don't tell the Anti-Hunters
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:01:07 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

>--
>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
>russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ



*******************

Back to hunters hunting hunters.  I asked if you felt it was an
"idiotic" assertion:

agnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins):
>jh> I am interested in Russell Lawrence's opinion: is the assertion
>jh> that a hunter rightfully should progress in his/her hunting
>jh> challenges to the conclusion of hunting another hunter (due to
>jh> the "ultimate" challenge such pursuit would offer) idiotic?
>
>On the whole, I don't have much respect for labels like "idiotic",
>especially when they're tossed about by a man who claims that it'd
>be ok for him to kill humans who don't share his own religious
>beliefs.
>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
>russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ


Do you have an opinion on "hunters hunting hunters"?  I'm not asking
you if it's an "idiotic" assertion (frame your answer as you wish),
how it relates to ML's religious faith or what color socks he
wears.  What do you think?  The challenge here is to see if you
believe you're the reincarnation of Socrates.  You seem  usually to
answer questions in the form of another question.
From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Don't tell the anti-hunters
Date: 28 Sep 1992 19:45:55 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep27.220257.7209@cs.mun.ca> ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna) writes:
>viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

>>In <Bv5tGE.Eux@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>>>The vast majority of the hunters I know wouldn't engage in the sport
>>>if the game could shoot back.  Yet, they still view the sport as
>>>a "manly" endeavor for some reason.

>>	Since you seem to be asking for information here, let me give
>>my biased opinions for the above.  First, hunting is a manly sport
>>not because of any actions required therein, but mainly because so
>>few women seem to partake in it.  Competetive sewing would be seen as
>>a feminine sport for the same reasons, and these are societal, not
>>hormonal, based.  The same can be said for automobile racing, tractor
>>pulls, mud drags, and even competetive shooting.  None of these
>>sports require strength that many women do not have compared to men,
>>but for some reason the interest is not there.  This also shows up
>>in academia, where female engineers are a notable minority.


>ac> I think there's a dichotomy in the understanding of the word "manly" here.
>ac> My understanding of the word coincides with Russell's - there's an impli-
>ac> cation of "macho", "tough" & perhaps, "aggressive".  We may say that in
>ac> academia, engineering is a "male dominated" discipline, but we don't say
>ac> that it's a "manly" thing to go into engineering.  The implications are
>ac> totally different.  

>	alka


I don't know about all of you (out in t.p.a. netland) but, to my knowledge
not one single hunter has associated the word "manly" with hunting.  I
am a hunter and have no insecurities with my "manhood".  Although if I 
didn't hunt I still wouldn't have any insecurities concerning my manhood.
I think you will find that our old friend Russell is the one who labeled
hunter as considering themselves "manly" for hunting and it is HIS label
not ours.  Perhaps Russell is the one who doubts his manhood and therefore
has some sort of problems with hunters that HE perceives threaten his manhood.

Food for thought.

Mike Linan








































Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: Rosemary Waigh <rwaigh@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Down (was The ethics of wool vs synthetics)
Reply-To: rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh)
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 22:16:58 GMT
Keywords: down animal rights environment

In article <1992Sep24.020259.18529@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
>Lots of cheap winter jackets are not filled with down anymore, so
>there's one animal product that's fortunately seeing less widespread
>use. Perhaps someone can post info on whether this "goose down" is
>obtained from the goose in humane condtions.
>
In an old issue of _Animal's_Agenda_, I ran across a reference stating that
down is a byproduct of the poultry industry.  I can look up the exact
reference if anyone cares.

_Save_the_Animals_, by Ingrid Newkirk, says that some geese are raised for
down, which is plucked from them while alive.  (Unfortunately, this book
has no references :-(. )

Rosemary
rwaigh@zooid.guild.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Re: Hunters needed
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:59:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.012232.2729@convex.com> jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L.
Johnson) writes:
>
>I honestly don't know how anyone could deliberately and needlessly take the
>life of an animal and "go on."  I know I couldn't.
>--
> Jennifer L. Johnson | "Custom will reconcile people to any atrocity."
> jjohnson@convex.com |            --George Bernard Shaw

What are you looking for by the participation of a hunter at your
"debate"?   Do you feel that after the debate you honestly will
understand "deliberate" and "needless" taking of animal life?  You
say you know you couldn't.  It seems more that you are looking for
a manifestation of evil in a supportive environment.  Seriously,
what do you want to find out from the hunters?
From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Date: 1 Oct 1992 19:43:58 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct1.153234.19242@informix.com> proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.201717.9152@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> keith@clodii.Columbia.NCR.COM (Keith Boyd) writes:
>>
>>Let's see....Russell Lawrence contends that hunters like to hunt because
>>it makes us feel "macho" and adds to our "manliness". 

>>Jennifer Johnson contends that AR folks suspect that we (hunters) are
>>all a bunch of cowards.
 
>>Can't you people get your opinions together??

>There is no contradiction. Naturally cowards have the greatest need
>to demonstrate how "macho" they are.

This may be true to some degree in some people but, you could just as easily
say that the only way little insecure wimps can attack those "macho" men is
to question their motives.  It's pretty sad I think.  Obviously many of you
ARFs don't really have a clear understanding of what being a man is all about
and feel threatened by those who look and do what men have traditionally
done.  Your insecurities are not that hard to overcome.  Here, I'll help you.
First, go do something.  Anything, tennis, build a house, plant a garden,
sew some socks, anything.  Now, you are a man aren't you?  If the answer is
yes, then what you have just done was "manly".  Get it?  Nothing you can do
is going to make you a man if you already aren't one.  

If you haven't figured it out yet, I suggest you either seek professional 
help or try out for the upcoming movie "NERDS VI".  :-)

Mike Linan











Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Geese Down Campaign
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:28:42 GMT

wheeler@SUPER.ORG (Ferrell S. Wheeler) writes:

`Cold Comfort for Geese
`----------------------

`Beauty  Without  Cruelty (BWC) charity has launched a campaign to highlight
`....

`The  main  countries  using  this  cruel  process  are  China,  Poland  and
`Hungary,  where  some  60  per  cent  of down produced is live-plucked. The
`down  market  in  the UK alone is worth around 2.6 million pounds per year.

Why not ask hunters to donate the down from their Geese harvests?  I would
sure be willing to do so.  Most of my feathers end up in the compost pile.
Hell, you could even set up collection houses and pay the hunters like
they do with animal pelts.

swood


-- 
Michigan Archery deer season opens October 1st!!!!!
 I will be sure to be out there, enjoying the sunrise and watching the
  critters roam about.  Whether or not I get a deer or not, the sunrise
   will still be there, and so will I.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Hunters Needed
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:04:57 GMT

jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L. Johnson) writes:

>Great!  My intent, of course, was to get some 'nad-brained good ole boy so
>fired up he'd just have to show up and participate.

>You're on.  And since you challenged me, I get to choose the manner.  So,
>how 'bout left-handed arm-wrestling??

	How about pistols at fifty meters?  We'll use rubber bullets.

>I hated hunters long before there _was_ an AR movement.  Nobody convinced me
>to view hunters as cowardly scum, and no hunter has ever given me reason to
>doubt that assessment.

	You're obviously hanging out with the wrong crowd, bigoted, or
both.  My condolances -- you aren't deserving of my sympathies.

>FoA issued an open invitation for hunting spokepersons.  If what we get are
>palookas, it'll be because that's the best the hunters could find among their
>ranks.  

	Would you perchance be Jewish or Black?  There are certain groups
I can think of that would *love* to have you as a guest speaker.  For
that matter, you are most likely fairly liberal, and I've a few friends
still in the Minutemen who would probably like to meet you sometime.
Can you see the similarities?

>You hunters keep talking about how this debate is stacked against you, how
>we want subhuman debris to represent the pro-hunting side, etc., but evidently
>not one hunter has the fortitude to just show up and make sure their side is
>fairly represented.  If you're unwilling to even try to make this a fair
>debate, you forfeit the right to bitch about its unfairness.

	That we refuse to come along should provide some insight as to who
had decided not to make it a fair debate.  Stuff that in your tofu and
smoke it (but don't inhale!).

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"I see angels on Ariels in leather and>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | chrome, Swooping down from heaven to >
<viking@iastate.edu      | carry me home."   ---    R. Thompson >
<ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee.>

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals