From: starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (starbuck)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 8 Nov 92 21:47:07 GMT
Followup-To: alt.supermodels
Organization: University of California, Riverside

In article <1992Nov6.150355.9849@rtf.bt.co.uk> fletcher@rtf.bt.co.uk (Catherine Fletcher) writes:

>By the way, anyone who has the slightest grasp of what sexism is and doesn't
>understand why an Elle calendar is offensive and harmful and a Chippendales
>calendar isn't probably has no aptitude for complex thought - therefore I
>am resorting to condescending insult rather than reasoned explanation.

> Catherine 

Sexism is a term that can be defined by the user.  So what you may think
is complex for yourself may be trite to someone else.  To me such a statement
as "doesn't understand why an Elle calendar is offensive and harmful and a
Cippendales calendar isn't..." makes abosulutly no sence at all.  Care
to explain it in your own words?

For the sake of argument lets say that as a given we accept that the Elle 
calendar is harmful and offensive to women.  Let's just say we accept this
as a truth.  And we also accept the as truth that the Chippendales calendar
is not offensive to men nor harmful to men.  What could be the difference?

Both calanders are sold to people who like the physical attributes of a
certian type of human body.  I would say that for the person who buys one
of these calanders there is, depending on the individual, varing degrees of
sexual interest.  I don't think there is much more to the motivations of
people who like such calendars.  Women buy and hang such calendars for
the same reasons that men do.  It doesn't matter if she buys the Elle
calandar or the Cippendales calendar.  She does it for the same reasons.
To some degree or another the models who pose are sex-objects.  To me
it is the same thing.  It does not matter if the person is a woman
or a man. Both display a sexual interest in the bodies of other human
beings.  You seem to think it unhealthy if a man does it and not so
if a women does.

See the problem with your argument is that you do not reconize that the
motivations of women are very much like those of men in this type of
thing.  That is the real root of what "you see" as a problem.  And 
the real question we could be discussing is weather or not it is sexually
moral for a "person" to make sex objects out of others?  This is where
having aptitude for complex thought comes in.  It is not just a situation
of sexism as feminists define it, it is much deeper because it's we are 
really talking about the sexual attitudes of both men and women.  How 
far do you want to go in regulating the sexuallity of others?  If you 
regualate my choices then do I get to regualte yours?

Feminists are blind to the reality of their own gender.  They fail to see
that in many ways the motivations of women are not much different then men.
It is a matter of choice, a concept that a feminist like yourself should be
more familiar with then I.  The real question is wheather this choice
is valid.  I feel it is. It does not matter if I approve or not.

Sexuallity is deep, much deeper than femininst thought.  The feminist only
considers her position which is more often than not on her "personal" 
preceptions.  She often will make the fact fit the theory without regard
to truth.  This is such a case.

What I think you really mean is that feminists wish to impose their own
sexual morality on everyone else, or most likely on men.  It is a double 
standard sexual morality that excuses women and faults men.  We have seen 
this in action by many mainstream feminist writers like Robin Morgan.  
We have seen the bias of lesbian feminists in regard to hetrosexual 
relationships.  We have seen this in the classified ad section of the "
National NOW Times".  You can only go so far with bullshit arguments, and 
besides people are not going to change the way you think they should. 
   
starbuck
Xref: sparky alt.supermodels:1640 soc.women:19177 alt.feminism:4045 soc.men:18958