From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:19:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.210532.8655@ultb.isc.rit.edu> kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:

)>There really are a
)>lot of vocal and highly visible lesbian/radical/cultural (take
)>your pick) separatists who hate men (or at least bash them at every
)>opportunity) around.  
)
)"Vocal" and "highly visible" should not be confused with "a lot."  There are
)*some* who hate/bash men, and opportunities to hate/bash abound, given the
)prevailing climate among us.

The 'climate' is part of the problem, IMO.  There is a general tolerance out
there (in the media)  for man-bashing, and a general intolerance for
woman-bashing.  This is a separate issue from how much of each there is, but
actually the discrepancy in treatment (esp by the media, though this
phenomenon is observable elsewhere) is what bothers me the most.

)>Shore doesn't seem to acknowledge this.  How much and
)>how seriously non-radical women bitch about men isn't really clear - neither
)>is how much and how seriously non-radical married men bitch about women.
)>Esp behind their respective backs (ie women to women about men, men to men
)>about women).
)
)Maybe these people are not as "serious" as Shore and I view them to be, but
)this bitching has been going on for some time now.

Since I don't have any idea of what you've heard or how often (not to
minimize the difficulties of actually 'spelling this all out'), it's really
hard for me to figure out just what you've heard and what its significance
may or may not be, not to mention how representative I think what you've
heard may or may not be (since I don't really know what it is).

)>Interestingly enough, if you turn Shore's remark around, I tend to agree
)>with it more.
)>
)>"I'm not surprised there are men who hate women.  What surprisies me is which
)>men hate women.  No, it isnt the homosexuals - its the heterosexual husbands
)>and divorced men who engage in outrageous woman bashing":
)
)What I don't understand is why you would agree that this arrangement is
)possible and Shore's original isn't.  For me, they are counterpoints to one
)another, keeping each other alive.  My personal experience supports Shore's
)remark; come and talk with the secretaries in my building, talk with the clerks
)in the local chain grocery store, talk with the mothers who have both Ph.D.s
)and small children.  Many put their men down.

Their men, or all men in general?  Anti-male bigotry, or just letting off
steam about relationship problems?  It's not clear what you're describing.

)I do see a chasm between men and
)women, a situation where many women are just now gathering steam for taking
)back whatever they want by first beefing about it.  I don't always agree with
)their approach because I feel that bashing men to other people often serves no
)purpose and I wish everyone would work to resolve conflicts and rough spots. 
)
)>However, there are some homosexual men who do hate women, and it's not
)>particular clear that it isn't simply the general prevelance of
)>heterosexuality that makes heterosexual woman bashing more common than
)>homosexual woman bashing.
)
)I don't understand what you're saying here.

If 90% of the population is het and 10% is gay, it wouldn't really be
surprising if 90% of the <gender bashing> was done by hets.  What is
interesting to me isn't the total numbers, where gays will probably be
in the minority in any event because they are a minority, but the
prevalcnce of bashing as a percentage of the target population.  (I.e.
do 10% of gays bash, but 20% of heterosexuals?  Or are the percentages
reversed).  I have no firm idea - part of the problem is that most people
don't go around with a sign on their forheads indicating what their sexual
preference is :-).  A lot of the leaders of the male bashing movement do
seem to be gay, though - I'd guess that more leaders and followers of
male-bashers are 'acknowledged gay' than the general 'acknowledged gay'
percentage of the population, though I don't have any figures.

Also bashing needs to be well defined - I'm mostly concerned with bigotry.

)>Also, there is absolutely *nothing* like the organized politcial and directed
)>male bashing that we see in politics today from the homosexual male front
)>(or the non-homosexual male front, for that matter).  There aren't any male
)>McKinnon's or Dworkins (IMO).
)
)True, and I think this can be attributed to a general attack on "the
)establishment" of white males who run government and corporations in ways
)unsympathetic to others.  Time for a change, don't you think? 

I dunno.  I think politics will continue to be adversarial, unfortunately.
I'm not convinced that telling the anti-male bigots out there to 'please
be nice' is the answer - I think the answer is more along the lines of voting
people who propose 'Violence Against Delicate Precious Women - Who Gives A
Damn About The Men Anyway' legislation out of office than asking the
opposition to 'be nice and stop slinging mud'.

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