HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Subject: Re: Repost from ASAR
Summary: Skeptics, Survivors, and Emotional Issues 
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:49:31 GMT

I don't read ASAR and I don't plan to, cause I do agree with the  point that
these people need Someplace to be able to talk about their experiences. 

But as bad as these experiences may be, and I am familiar with them in depth, 
there is something that is becoming more and more of a problem, and which 
these Survivors and those who Help them should have more sympathy for, but 
don't. .and that is. .:

Those who are accused of Emotional, Mental, or Physical abuse who are 
innocent.  I have personally been accused of abuse of a female and have been
witness to other incidents where other individuals have been accused of
abuse.  These incidents generally arise from an abused person overracting
totally to what to a non-abused person would regard as an innocent situation,
often frbecause of the neurotic or psychotic perspective/orientation of the 
survivor.  However, it also happens as a kind of power-play on the part of
the individual to obtain attention or to intimidate those around them to 
responding more "appropriately" to their situation.  

This has very negative effects, both specifically and in general.  It harms
the accused individual, friends and family, careers, and creates just that 
many more people who may then tend to discount or ignore the claims of 
other survivors.

Which leads back to publicized, note publicized, accusations of abuse when
there is no admissible evidence to support it.  Society rightly comes down 
hard on accused individuals, unfortunately often too hard when subsequently
not found guilty, and not hard enough for those who are.  But society also
needs to come down hard on those who make false accusations, and the Support
community does not make this clear to those who it is supporting.  In fact, 
it is my experience that the Support community retreats into its own shell 
just as the Survivors tend to do, viewing the outside world with a narrow
perspective of fear and suspiciousness.  Survivors need, as part of their
therapy, the information that the world is not divided into Abusers and 
Survivors and Therapists, and that Any implication of a false accusation
aired to the world at large is much much worse for the general state of 
the community at large. 

Innocent until Proven Guilty cannot be overemphasized. Bearing False Witness
is one of the worst afflictions that can be imposed upon us, as it seeks to
destroy that upon which we base the security of the group in general. If 
anyone can be destroyed by accusation, intimidated by threat of accusation
without evidence, or castigated by subsections of society whenever someone
drops a hat, then none of us, survivors or anyone, can be truly safe. 

Well, that should evoke some hostility. .sigh... Please keep name-calling
flames to email, thanks.  Responsible posts welcomed, this is a hard 
subject, with no easy answers. 

					-Edward Averett

Xref: sparky talk.rape:3157 soc.women:23172
From: albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert)
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.women
Subject: Re: FOR LOS ANGELES AREA WOMEN ONLY
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:22:28 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories -- Database Research Group

In article <1993Jan27.033207.17708@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> michael@neuron6.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Rivero) writes:
>
>  Actually, we DO know what we are talking about. As Berkeley Professor
>Neil Gilbert has demonstrated in his numerous articles, the feminist
>movement is replete with studies which bias their methodology for no
>other reason than to generate numbers to "prove" a political position.

remove left foot, insert right foot.

actually, you have with your own writing proved that you don't know anything
about the study in question, which is not concerned at all with trying to
promote a political position in any way. this study is not trying to assess
the prevalence of sexual assault in the population.  it is studying the
recovery process of actual victims.  thus, it makes no sense to survey
potential subjects who are known a priori not to have been victims of
sexual assault.

your info below is also incorrect. read on.

>They did so to the point where a
>followup study showed that over 70% of the women listed as "rape victims"
>did not think they were....

THERE WAS NO SUCH FOLLOWUP STUDY AS YOU CLAIM!!!  If you want to make
claims to argue a point, please be prepared to back it up with citations.
Facts, please.  It may sound good, but it is patently FALSE.

finally, Neil Gilbert has not written "numerous articles" on the subject of
sexual assault.  he has published ZERO articles on the subject. Facts, please.
Let's see the citations!

Michael, if you want to come off on the net as something other than a
foaming idiot, it might help to be a little more factual. Just making up
out of thin air whatever sounds good to you thoroughly discredits your
integrity.

Joseph Albert
albert@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Question???
From: dvalent@husc10.harvard.edu (Daniel Valentine)
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:25:24 GMT

mcghee@hydra3f.cs.utk.edu (GINA MCGHEE) writes:

> 
>Keywords: 


>Being a newcomer to this newsgroup and the idea of a newsgroup, I am quite 
>curious as to the purpose of this particular one.  I am wondering, if this
>is supposed to be a place where people can discuss their pain resulting from
>a rape, isn't this bickering going against the healing process??

>If this board exists for people to argue about the specifics of rape, then I
>am sure that these discussions and tones are appropriate.

>Anyway.  I would like someone to let me know something about the above question.

>Thanks

>Gina


If anyone is looking for a supportive group for expressing and dealing
with the pain of rape, I'd recommend alt.sexual.abuse.recovery.

Dan Valentine
From: mcghee@hydra3f.cs.utk.edu (GINA MCGHEE)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Question???
Date: 21 Jan 1993 22:49:48 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
Reply-To: mcghee@hydra3f.cs.utk.edu (GINA MCGHEE)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra3f.cs.utk.edu

 
Keywords: 


Being a newcomer to this newsgroup and the idea of a newsgroup, I am quite 
curious as to the purpose of this particular one.  I am wondering, if this
is supposed to be a place where people can discuss their pain resulting from
a rape, isn't this bickering going against the healing process??

If this board exists for people to argue about the specifics of rape, then I
am sure that these discussions and tones are appropriate.

Anyway.  I would like someone to let me know something about the above question.

Thanks

Gina

Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: mikep@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:44:03 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

	Whoops.... sorry Jim, I see you touched on that a bit....

	-Mike-

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape ? (was Re: Mysogynist Bullshit)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:41:56 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories -- Database Research Group

In article <11787@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:

>In article <1993Jan20.213527.7208@aston.ac.uk> evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Mark Evans) writes:
>>
>>Well I think you will find that rape has its origins as a property, rather
>>than a personal crime.
>
>I have seen this claim many dozens of times.  Perhaps you can
>provide one for the very first time.

I paraphrase the old testament of the bible as an indication of the beliefs
of the ancient hebrew culture surrounding rape.  There is states that if
a man rapes a married woman, the rapist should be put to death.  If a man
rapes a single woman, then the rapist must `pay' for the crime by being
required to marry the woman (victim).  In the first case, the rapist is
`stealing' the purity of the wife, which being irreparable, the rapist
is put to death.  In the 2nd case, the rapist is `stealing' the virginity
of the single woman from her father in the sense that the daughter is
no longer marriagable. (only virgins were considered marriageable). thus,
the father will be burdened with supporting this daughter, and the rapist
must correct the problem by marrying the daughter.  Clearly they did
not consider it a personal crime, as the feelings of the victim are
never taken into account.  the victim has no say as to whether or not she
marries the rapist (women had no say regarding who they married period,
it seems at that time).

the idea that a rape is a personal crime perpetrated against the victim
is very recent with respect to historical time scales.

Joseph Albert
albert@hplabs.hp.com

Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:17:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories -- Database Research Group

In article <1993Jan26.181859.328@xenitec.on.ca> merce@xenitec.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes:

>what if he was in the same state as she?
>
>the fact that she feels it was wrong after the fact allows her to place blame on
>him, when it is possible that the were both enebriated to the point where
>it could be a quasi-no-fault kinda thing.

if both were too drunk to be coherent, then if one of the persons initiated
and carried out some act which, if done without consent, si considered
rape, then it is rape.  if both particpated equally in making the event
happen, it is not rape.

it is analogous to the following situation: if you drive a car, and run over
a drunk pedestrian, it is your fault.  if you get drunk and drive a car
while drunk, and run over a drunk pedestrian, it is still your fault.

Joseph Albert
albert@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu (Louise Penberthy) 
Subject: Rape originating as property crime (was Re: Drunk Sex = Rape ? (was Re: Mysogynist Bullshit))
Reply-To: louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu (Louise Penberthy) 
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology 
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:34:30 GMT

In article <11787@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@dirac.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:
>Check followups.
>
>In article <1993Jan20.213527.7208@aston.ac.uk> evansmp@uhura.aston.ac.uk (Mark Evans) writes:
>>Well I think you will find that rape has its origins as a property, rather
>>than a personal crime.
>
>I have seen this claim many dozens of times.  I have seen cogent 
>substantiations that did not reduce to handwaving exactly zero times.  I have
>asked for substantiations on the network four or five times.  Perhaps you can
>provide one for the very first time.

All right, let's try this.  I'll stick with Western civilization.

Historically, women have had few -- if any -- rights of their
own.  What rights they had were not those they had because they
were human beings in and of themselves.  Rather, they had rights
derived from the males on which they were dependent:  father,
brother, husband, son.  Women as inheritors of property, for
example, were in essence sold to the highest bidder in marriage
contracts.  Women were prized not for their worth as human
beings, but for the real property or other attributes that they
had.  Virginity was highly prized in women, certainly by the men
in their lives.  A woman who was not a virgin was not so
sought-after for marriage.  Her "property value" was less.  But
the person who could usually claim damages if she was raped was
not her herself, but the man in her life who in essence "owned"
her, namely her father or brother etc.  The rape of a woman was a
crime for which a _man_ could claim damages (if he cared to),
because the woman was his property and rape had damaged his
property and made it worth less.

Obviously this is not the whole story about rape.  But here is
part of the historical context for at least part of the story.

-- Louise Penberthy

Louise Penberthy                     |  "A lot of people think 'a capella'
Dept of CSIS, Kennesaw State College |   means 'without clothes.'"
PO Box 444, Marietta, GA  30061      |
louise@pravda.cc.gatech.edu          |   -- Barry Carl, bass, Rockapella
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: mcgeegt@eng.auburn.edu (Gary T. McGee)
Subject: Re: What a penalty...
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:28:09 GMT

>From dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg)
>Subject: What a penalty...
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:45:26 GMT

>I just heard that a bill was introduced in the New Mexico legislature
>to have a new penalty for rape.  If a man is convicted of rape, he
>would have the choice of being castrated... or being forced to leave
>the state.  Is being forced to leave New Mexico really a legitimate
>punishment for a crime this serious...

>-David "ZZYZX" Steinberg- King of the ellipses

I have been to New Mexico, and I would have to say no.

Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: mikep@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:42:19 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]



	Hey folks...  got an idea.  If you want to really feel that you
	have a good understanding of this drinking/rape issue, I would 
	ask that you consider this all too common situation (and if we
	can't talk about common real-world situations, they what's this
	all about, right?)

	A Woman and a Man drink.  They get drunk.  They have sex.  They
	both regret it in the morning.   Who raped who?  (<- hint.  This
	_may_ be an improper question.)

	Cheers...

	-Mike-
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.women
From: albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert)
Subject: Re: FOR LOS ANGELES AREA WOMEN ONLY
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:06:34 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories -- Database Research Group

Many people seem threatened by the study that requested subjects, so much 
as to post responses claiming the sample would be biased, or that the
study was intended to garner propaganda, or other claims.

All of you seem so eager to comment about something you don't know anything
about. 

if someone was doing a study on the efficacy of a drug to help someone
recover from a heart attack, they would try specifically to recruit
people who have had a heart attack.  yes this would bias the sample in
the sense that it would be totally useless in assessing the prevalence
of heart disease.  but, that isn't what the investigator was trying to
do. it is difficult to study the efficacy of a heart drug on people that
aren't heart patients, so the investigator would not wnat to waste their
time, subject's time, and federal research dollars recruiting people
in general, and then seeing which have suffered heart failures to be
eligible for the study. instead, they would put out a request for
people who have suffered a heart problem, and then verify that they
fit the category pertinent to the study.

if indeed someone had posted a request for such a study of a heart drug,
people never would have responded as they have to the requests for
subjects that actually was posted.  they wouldn't have because anyone
with half a brain would see what utter fools they were making of themselves.

Joseph Albert
albert@hplabs.hp.com 
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Correction About Alt.Sexual.Abuse.Recovery (Was: Question???)
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:17:07 GMT

In article <ATAYLOR.93Jan22152006@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:

	In the course of replying to  "Question", I wrote the
	following:

<	   alt.sexual.abuse.recovery which is supposed to be moderated.
<	   There is also provision for anonymous posting to that
<	   newsgroup.

<	   While, strictly speaking, rape is not necessarily sexual
<	   abuse, it would surprise me if the moderator of that group
<	   refused a posting from a rape survivor that was appropriate
<	   to the group.

	 This is not correct. 

	I have been informed that:

	1. alt.sexual.abuse.recovery is not moderated.

	2. While anonymous posting is possible, the person
	   who handles that is not a moderator and does
	   not censure *or read* anonymous postings prior
	   to posting them (an important point).

	3. Neither regular posters nor lurkers make any
	   discrimination between persons sexually abused
	   as children and adult rape survivors.


	I hope this correction clarifies the nature of a.s.a.r
	for any persons who wish information on that newsgroup.

	There is a FAQ for that newsgroup, as well.
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Followup-To: talk.rape
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<16B5EA76A.ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU> <C1BpFC.A35@cs.mcgill.ca>
	<1jt0r2INNm7j@gap.caltech.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:53:30 GMT

<In article <1jt0r2INNm7j@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:

<chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J Savoie) writes:

<>Amy, here is my example of someone who believes sleeping with a drunk
<>woman is grounds for being thrown in jail and getting a criminal record
<>(a misdemeanor is sufficient for this, is it not?).

<Would you say that a misdemeanor is sufficient for taking a drunk 
<person's wallet?  It's still theft, no?  Whether they're drunk or sober.

	I don't believe that's a correct interpretation of the text.
	If I understand Savoie, Peri's analogy is way off.

	A more accurate analogy would be: someone who is drunk
	gives away all his money, but calls the police the next
	day to report having been robbed.

Followup is set to talk.rape, where by net.convention debates of this
sort are to be held.
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.men
From: albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert)
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:31:55 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories -- Database Research Group

In article <1993Jan26.152309.15240@nmsu.edu> dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg) writes:

>What I'm objecting to is that for the rest of his life he (most
>likely) will be referred to as "accused rapist".  Maybe he was guilty
>of the crime, but even if he wasn't (and there was not conclusive
>evidence that he was) he wears a scarlet letter around his neck for
>the rest of his life...

when you are a Kennedy, your life comes under public scrutiny.  if
you are a Kennedy and you are accused of wrong doing, that public
scrutiny is going to stay in people's minds for along time.  this
has nothing ot do with rape.  it has to do with a member of a
famous family being accused of wrong-doing.  

Joseph Albert
albert@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: talk.rape,soc.women
From: ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez)
Subject: Re: FOR LOS ANGELES AREA WOMEN ONLY
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:25:59 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: The Arts Babblative and Scribblative
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1993Jan20.081138.16308@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> michael@neuron6.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Rivero) writes:
=>In article <1993Jan19.220636.22762@netcom.com> ullman@netcom.com (Sarah Ullman) writes:
=>>THE FOLLOWING ANNOUNCEMENT IS FOR LOS ANGELES AREA WOMEN ONLY:
=>>--------------------------------------------------------------
=>>
=>>Have you ever felt pressured or forced to have sexual intercourse or
=>>other sexual experiences when you did not want to?
=>>
=>  I assume you recognize that this biases your sample, so that
=>no conclusions may be drawn about the prevelence of these problems within the
=>general population?
=>
=>-- 
=>Michael Rivero michael%neuron6@jpl-mil.jpl.nasa.gov

No, it won't bias the sample.  That's because the set of people who have
ever felt pressured to have a sexual experience when they did not want to
*is* the general population.  I'm sure that virtually *all* women and *all*
men, even all children, have experienced such pressure however mild.
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Ramon Dominguez             | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"       
Convex Computer Corporation |                            --Oscar Wilde
ramon@convex.com            | "Ceci n'est pas une .signature file"
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: sun@cco.caltech.edu (Neal K. Chaudhary)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape ? (was Re: Mysogynist Bullshit)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 12:21:25 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu


>I paraphrase the old testament of the bible as an indication of the beliefs

>[that]

>the idea that a rape is a personal crime perpetrated against the victim
>is very recent with respect to historical time scales.

the bible is written by men, and written for men (the audience
is assumed male); that they dont consider the personal feelings of
the women is not surprising.  they obviously didnt view women
as fully equal human beings, so how can they make a personal crime
against a semiperson?  they can only make crimes against
the owners of the semipeople, and this is the problem they address.
that doesnt mean it wasnt a personal crime.  perhaps this is
what you meant though, seeing as you wrote that the IDEA was a
recent discovery.  if so this is just clarification.
From: emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 22:57:15 GMT
Organization: Gustavus Adolphus College
NNTP-Posting-Host: ancho.gac.edu

In article <16B5EA76A.ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU> ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU writes:
>In article <C186HJ.HEz@hplntx.hpl.hp.com>
>albert@hpl.hp.com (Joseph Albert) writes:
> 
>>
>>In article <1jjru2INN3kb@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> eisrael@klingon.East.Sun.COM writes:
>>>The problem is that this isn't always a safe bet. I've heard more than one
>>>"authority" on rape (including the head of the Women's Rape Counseling Center
>>>in D.C., whose name unfortunately escapes me) claim that a woman who realizes
>>>in the morning that she probably didn't want to have sex (or wouldn't have if
>>>she'd thought about it some more) has been raped.
>>
>>One reason the name may escape you is that there is no such thing as the
>>"Women's Rape Counseling Center" in D.C.  Yes, I know it sounds good to
>>appeal to the ultimate spokesperson of those you wish to discredit, but
>>a little more accuracy is called for.  Your claims are simply not credible.
>>Any authority on rape will tell you that if a woman is too drunk to have
>>been able to give consent (eg passed out) then perpetrating intercourse
>>on her body is rape.
>>
>>Joseph Albert
>>albert@hplabs.hp.com
> 
>I don't think that anyone will argue that if a woman is falling-down-drunk
>or semiconscious she is still capable of giving consent.  HOWEVER, the question

Wrong. I don't think so.