From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Biofeedback for meditation training...
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:13:33 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <malcolm.721340373@wrs.com>, malcolm@wrs.com (Malcolm Humes) writes:
: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
: 
: I know this is probably pushing it, but could someone please explain what
: is a "relaxed state of mind" vs. "meditation"?  

I would love to be able to tell you. But I don't have the words for
it. It is like trying to describe the taste of rattlesnake. I could
tell you it tastes like chicken, but it doesn't, really.

A meditative state, as I define it (I'm sure someone will come along
and tell me no it isn't so. :-), is characterized by a high degree of
focus. If that means anything to you. In the case of the meditation I
practice, it is characterized by an absence of extraneous thought as
well. But, fundamentally, it's got a certain feeling to it, and I
can't really communicate that.

As regards the differences between relaxation, meditation, etc.
Entrainment is supposed to induce a higher proportion of alpha waves
in the EEG. This sort of brain activity has supposedly been correlated
with such mental states as dreaming, daydreaming, hypnosis, deep
relaxation, and meditation. To the beginner with such states of mind,
they all feel very similar, in part because of their unfamiliarity. I
can go back again to the analogy of exotic meats. To the average
American, all small birds and mammals taste like chicken.

As far as I could judge from my experience, the effects of entrainment
devices could best be likened to the effects of hypnosis. And you
could perhaps find it easier to move between hypnosis and meditation
than from the ordinary waking state to meditation. I haven't tried
that myself.

: :Only in the sense of knowing what it is you're shooting for. 
: 
: What are we shooting for, anyway? If I could figure that out maybe I could
: get "there". :^) 

I think that depends on who you ask. In my own case, I am shooting to
be free of thoughts, for reasons that I think are probably not within
the scope of this group. I think that would be more appropriate to
discuss by email, if you like.

: Aw, shit. Can we define consciousness too? I've been reading this group
: for at least a month and have seen no charter or FAQ. This to me seems to
: be part of the meat of where I'm poking my stick; prodding for a response
: to better define what we're talking about or what we're supposed to be 
: talking about. 
: 
:Conscious:1) aware of one's existence, feelings and thought.  2) in a waking, 
: not comatose, state. 3) aware.  4) intentional. 
: 
: Hmmm - I thought zen buddhist meditation was just about the opposite of 
: consciousness as defined in my little new american Webster handy college
: dictionary.  

I don't know, sounds to me like all these definitions fit zen.  In any
case, I would love to see someone define consciousness. But I wouldn't
venture to define it myself, beyond I know it when I got it.  I think
when discussing the origins of consciousness, the important aspect is
self-awareness. I think another main topic here is states of
consciousness. (I think I'm trying to define it here in spite of
myself. ;-)). So perhaps discussion of consciousness is a discussion
of states of awareness, i.e., what are you aware of in a given mental
state, and what different functions, abilities, idiosycrasies are
characteristic of these states.

::Alpha dominated EEG's doesn't necessarily imply a 
::meditative state. It could very well mean you have been staring at the 
::white lines on the highway a little too long.  
:
: Damn, and I thought driving long distance was a form of meditation. You're 
: suggesting it isn't. Why not? :^) I buy the basic point, that just because 
: a bunch of people meditating are at a certain brain frequency doesn't mean 
: that inducing that frequency will create a meditative state. But I don't 
: see anything to convince me that it might not work either. And I love that 
: trance-like state induced by long drives, whether it's meditative or not.  

It could help, but meditation is not relaxation or hypnosis. You would
have to learn that as well, and then perhap you could use one to
enhance the other. For myself, I find that these toys are actually a
great distraction to me in meditation, but that's me. Maybe I could
improve my meditation by learning to do so even with the toys.

: My original idea in buying an entrainment device was in fact to help me 
: get regular in meditation, not so much in wanting the machine to do all the
: work for me. [some stuff omitted]
: bring me back to wondering what it is I want or seek in meditation anyway, 
: which is why I've rambled on and asked questions that may seem sort of
: obvious or indulgent.  

As I said before, I think this is probably outside the scope of this group,
and would happily discuss this with you by email.

: : But is entrainment bullshit? Can anyone prove it doesn't work?  
: : - malcolm@wrs.com

That's the thing. Work at what? It might help you meditate, but it won't put
you in that state of mind. It might help you relax, if you let it. You could
maybe use the state of mind it induces, whatever it is, for reprogramming
yourself. I don't know. I only wished to point out that in my experience,
entrainment will not put you in a state of meditation as I know it, in and of
itself. 
		-Yours in altered states,
				Lorenzo

P.S.: If it's meditation you want to find out about, you might want to ask on
soc.religion.eastern, or alt.meditation.transcendental.
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
Xref: sparky alt.consciousness:685 alt.paranormal:2475 talk.religion.newage:5186