HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Reply-To: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 19:44:24 GMT


In a previous article, petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) says:

>>OS/2 doesn't really use the BIOS, so it CAN'T be a BIOS app.
>
>But OS/2 uses the BIOS as its boot sector loader, just as Win31 uses
>DOS as it's loader, so by the logic so commonly used in this group (cynicism)
>OS/2 Is as much BIOS app as Win31 is DOS app.

But doesn't windows use int 21h for more than boot strapping?
If it does, then it certainly uses dos as more than a bootstrap.
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pricing of apps
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:26:51 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug20.060033.19057@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>In EPM you can start a command shell and have it linked to an edit window;
>commands typed in the edit window will be executed and output from them
>asynchronously inserted into the shell file (so you can switch to another
>file in the ring while your compile is going on).  Try doing that with a
>DOS editor...

Neat.  Just like Gnu Emacs does for full-screen (and windowed) OS/2
sessions!


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2, DOS, NT (Speculative) -- My Opinions
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:22:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug19.165357.11271@hellgate.utah.edu> brian%jaguar.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:
>I'm getting a bit hot under the collar about people like you... GET THIS
>THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

[rest of post (somewhat useful) deleted]

My, we certainly do get angry over trivial things, don't we?  Relax,
or you'll burst a blood vessel and be unable to use this wonderful NT
system you've installed!

:-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-) (-: :-)


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: rjones@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Ronald Jones)
Subject: Re: IBM wouldn't pull support for OS/2, would it?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:08:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.104654.1880@wsl.ie> jja@wsl.ie (John J. Allen) writes:
>dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>: In article <1992Aug06.160209.9195@microsoft.com> gordonl@microsoft.com (Gordon Letwin) writes:
>: 
>: It's a moot point.  Do you know ANYONE who was hurt by IBM's dropping
>: TopView?  Every company I know of didn't use it for anything more than
>: a curiosity - just like Windows 1.0.
>: -- 
>
>Hell Microsoft dropped Windows 1.0,2.x,and 3.0 and IBM dropped OS/2 1.3.
>
>All good things must come to en end or be superseded, but not before their
>time as MS did with OS/2.
>

Actually OS/2 1.3 has not been dropped. Its still on the IBM price sheets
and is being supported for those 286 folks! BTW if you look into IBMs
lan products you still see support for TOPVIEW. Who says IBM doesn't
support its products!


-- 
 < Ron Jones                   |           E-mail:   rj+@osu.edu  > 
 < The Ohio State University   |           Office: (614) 292-1665 >
 < Columbus, Ohio 43210        |           FAX:    (614) 292-7151 >
                         "eschew obfuscation"
From: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: ms gave up on os/2?
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:49:21 EST
Reply-To: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

In message <1992Aug19.2712.3910@dosgate>, "robert fielder"
<robert.fielder@canrem.com> writes:

BD>I'd call actively removing  support for OS/2 from  the C compiler to  be
BD>abandonment of OS/2,  wouldn't you? And  Bill Gates has  publicly stated
BD>that MS will  _not_ be developing  OS/2 apps, come  hell, high water  or
BD>snowdrift, unless two million copies are sold.

RF>Bill:

RF>Isn't Gates the guy who said the Microsoft would write for OS/2 as
RF>soon as it sold enough copies?

Yes. Two million was the quoted number. However, OS/2 has barely reached
half that number,  and that's including  the original new  release spike
and the marketing "blitz" we all know and love.

RF>I have to wonder why anyone give this guy any credibility....

Other than  the average  user and  the press,  you mean?  Gates is still
considered _the_ major computer name  in the nontechnical press. IBM  is
still  an  inpersonal,  faceless  corporation,  so  far  as the world is
concerned.

----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------
Deus Ex Machina                   | Internet:   bill.dehaan@rose.com
Software Consulting and Gator Pit | Eradicate Hunger - Eat the homeless
----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------
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From: cvadrtbc@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Srikanth Viswanathan)
Subject: Re: I've seen NT......and I'll take OS/2 2.0 thanks!
Organization: California Polytechnic University, Pomona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 22:50:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug20.045725.19850@news.columbia.edu>, mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir I Green) writes...
>>
>>Ok, how do I install the help so that I can type HELP IOPL? ;)  Thanks
>>to the many people who replied it!  
> 
>Did you try running selective install?

Actually, I meant that as a joke.  Note the smiley face.  I've deleted
all my helps files except for the command ref.  Does anyone know what
a Work Area is?  This is not a joke BTW, I really want to know <g>

Srikanth
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Distributed Systems (was: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift)
Date: 16 Aug 92 06:32:23 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <01050130.b0vhn5@trail.sharpstone.com> asp@trail.sharpstone.com writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug08.015618.25110@microsoft.com> (comp.os.os2.advocacy), petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>> When the Mac system software starts supporting Ethernet, FDDI, Token ring,
>> etc.  on it's own without any external vendors, then you can talk.
>> 
>> peteks@microsoft.com
>> My Opinions...
>> 
>
>You are behind the times my friend!  Apple provides EtherTalk and
>TokenTalk.  They also have hardware for same.  
>

Oopse, you're right, I forgot.  Apple is into this proprietary stuff.
Have been since the start.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...
From: harwood@progress.COM (Tom Harwood)
Subject: Re: It's OK for Windows to crash. It's not OK for OS/2 to crash.
Keywords: crashing.
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:37:02 GMT

jbaltz@hebrew.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B. Altzman) writes:

>I can crash a machine. The problem is when I'm on
>- under CMS with Priv. class G

>I don't want my user-level program to crash the machine.

Well, CMS isn't really an operating system :-) but I used to nuke
the DCSS fairly often.  CP is more difficult to crash from a guest
but there are a few holes.  Nearly everybody lets something slip through.

Does anyone know of a metric for OS robustness?  An interesting
research project, maybe...


>jerry b. altzman       Relax, it's all just 1's and 0's       +1 212 854 2057 

Or as we used to say: "It's just bits and BS"
-- 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kyle Tucker - Email Administrator  | 		Progress Software Corporation
tucker@bedford.progress.com 	   |		14 Oak Park
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: rommel@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Kai-Uwe Rommel)
Subject: Re: cset/2 orders
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:32:51 GMT
Distribution: comp

In article <1992Aug16.230253.10849@nic.funet.fi> oh1ltm@nic.funet.fi (Esa Holmberg) writes:
>In <1992Aug15.004442.12326@fics.uucp> ekl@fics.uucp writes:
>
>>Given that this very team use common front ends for several compilers, 
>>a C++ compiler for os/2 2.0 may not be too far off -- if they want to.
>
>	This makes me wonder, how far out a good Pascal compiler for
>	OS/2 2.0 might be - preferably Turbo Pascal or compatible, of
>	course :-) Anyone got a good guess?

Hmm, there already are Fortran and Pascal front ends for gcc, I mean,
Pascal/Fortran to C translators, compiled for OS/2 2.0, with/for
emx/gcc.

Kai Uwe Rommel

/* Kai Uwe Rommel --- rommel@informatik.tu-muenchen.de */

DOS ... is still a real mode only non-reentrant interrupt
handler, and always will be.                -Russell Williams
From: eletanjm@nuscc.nus.sg (TAN JIN MENG)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replicated data
Date: 18 Aug 92 06:23:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: nuscc.1992Aug18.062349.22393
Organization: National University of Singapore

craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell) writes:
: >In article <-159819989@hpopd.pwd.hp.com> yuk@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Yuk Lun Chan) writes:
: >>>With the NT system, You can use most advanced Windows software as it comes
: >>>out.  And when the main box goes down, everyone can continue to work locally.
: >>
: >>O.K. Can I still working when all my accessing file dead?
: 
: Actually, in replicated systems you can work until the minimum quorum of voting
: replications is reached.  You can continue to work in case of a network 
: partition (Joe Admin tripped over the repeater and pulled out the drops. :-)
: You can continue to work in case of server failure (Jane Admin dumps an iced
: latte on the disk controller). 
: 
: In the case of a replicated file, a number of copies of your file are
: distributed around the network; and if one server dies, you switch to another.
: The system deals with the intracacies of ensuring coherency between copies.
: 
: Try this with a terminal server :-)

HUH? A replicated/distributed file system works regardless. What has
this to do with the terminal server?

If the machine that a terminal server is connected to goes down - 
the terminal server goes down - this has nothing to do with how good 
the distributed (or centralised) file system is.

If you have a distributed file system (and naturally, distributed
processing nodes), you just connect to another machine and continue
working - this is for the terminal. If you are working on a workstation
with disk etc which then goes down, you just change your seat.

jin meng
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts)
Subject: Re: Hasta la Vista, OS/2
Organization: Instructional Technology Laboratory, University of Michigan
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:45:56 GMT

>   Lets take a poll: 
>        How many people have had OS/2 CRASH and TRASH??

Yes.

>	How many people have had Windows CRASH and TRASH?? 

Never. Once, a 3.0 crash caused me to have to re-make my .GRP files.
That was once, nearly two years ago; since then I've run Windows 3.0
and 3.1 consistently on about five machines, and never had a file eaten.
Even the 3.1 beta, while I was beta-testing, never crashed.

Sorry to disappoint you?  What the heck are you running, that you have
to keep Windows "chained to the wall?"


-- 
"It'sVerySad / toSeeTheAncientAndDistinguishedGameThatUsedToBe / aModelOf
DecorumAndTranquilityBecomeLikeAnyOtherSportABattlegroundForRivalIdeologies
toSlugItOutWithGlee." (from _Chess_). -potts@itl.itd.umich.edu-
From: varmint@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Samir Varma)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tex vs WYSIWYG ( was Re: superVGA (and misc top-blowing), et. al.)
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:50:16 GMT
Organization: Center for Particle Physics, University of Texas

In article <1992Aug19.012434.27424@hellgate.utah.edu> brian%jaguar.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:

Okay, let's start off by agreeing to continue to disagree.

>\sqrt{...} is not worrying about format?  Anything you type in TeX
>that begins with \ is "worrying about format".

No, once you learn the format (and it's embedded in your head) that really
isn't worrying about format.  That's just typing what you have in your head
directly into ASCII.

>However many
>add-on packages are available now... perhaps one of them will allow
>you to typeset equations TeX-style but leave you with the other benefits.

Let me put it this way.  If there was a word processor, which would allow me
the full TeX feature set (not like Ami's limited one) and would allow me to
embed my equations in my text by simply typing them then, and only then, will
the WYSIWYG approach become more efficient than my current TeX/Emacs 
implemention.  In fact, I can't wait for such a beast.  The trouble with 
stuff from the commercial vendors is that I don't think they care too much
about the rather specialised academic/mathematical market.

Sure, given the above conditions, not only will I try it out, but I'll be
the first on the block.  But..., my point is that none of the current 
Word Processors allow this and their range of equation stuff is just too
limited.

>Your choice!  Oh... I recently saw described a WYSIWYG front-end for TeX
>that runs under Windows... if that is of interest I can dig up the
>information. (It also shows that there is a group of TeX users that don't
>think the use-emacs-to-type-it-in approach is so hot!)

Yes, I know the one you're talking about.  It was reviewed in PC Mag by 
Barry Simon (Physicist, CalTech).  Firstly, it only supports LaTeX, and
secondly, it's quite an unwieldy implementation.

Finally, since the macros are already written for TeX, Word Basic doesn't
do much good.  It's the curse of the installed user base.


Samir Varma

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: brian%jaguar.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill)
Subject: Re: Pricing of apps
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:00:39 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Aug20.040505.33422@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>In  <1992Aug14.005444.25731@hellgate.utah.edu>  brian%jaguar.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:
>> In general OS/2 products cost 10 to 50 percent more.
>> Example, the Brief editor as shown in Programmer's Connection catalog:
>>      DOS: $129
>>      OS/2: $169
>
>An OS/2 product can be a lot better than a DOS product, as well.  If there
>is no difference between the two, you can get the DOS version and run it in
>VDM.
>
>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)

You know if someone from Microsoft said a similar thing here, things would be
very rough for them.  Do you believe that the higher prices come from the
added value?  I sincerely doubt it -- it surely must come from a belief that
1) it's a smaller market, with less competition, and 2) it's inhabited by
people so desperate for native applications they will pay the price anyway.
Worse most of these apps (for example Brief) are for OS/2 1.x, you don't even
get the 32-bit performance boost.  I bought the 16-bit version of Brief
on purpose... I'm told it runs under NT, and I'd like a good editor now.

Brian

Brian

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: brian%jaguar.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill)
Subject: Re: HPFS File Names (Was Re: Damned good recovery)
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:51:32 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <Lrf-Y7-@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
...
>What would be really nice is if you could assign your own 8.3 name to
>any file and have DOS applications use that filename instead of 
>simply being blind to the file.  For example, I would like to have
>some subdirectories which contain only 8.3 names.  Unfortunately all
>parent directories must also conform to 8.3 names for DOS applications
NT fixes this -- if you are on an NTFS volume, 8.3 names are automatically
assigned for the long names.

>
>James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
>University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
>Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943         
>
>


Brian
From: timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol)
Subject: Re: superVGA  (and misc top-blowing)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 07:33:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug14.101832.12678@actrix.gen.nz> Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:
>In article <SXMRP.13.0@orca.alaska.edu> SXMRP@orca.alaska.edu (Michael R. Platzke) writes:
>> 
>> >Or you can run OS/2 2.0 on a 386sx/20MHz with 6 megs of RAM.
>> > 
>> >I saw NT today. *BOW WOW* If that's a desktop system, then MVS/XA is the next
>> >step for the desktop!
>> > 
>> 
>> Remember, you were looking at a pre-beta release
>> 
>
>Mike, I'm going by what the presenter said. He said - I wrote it down - you
>*will* need a 486/33 with a minimum of 8megs just to run, 16megs if you want
>to get any work done. he said that NT was NOT for the desktop,it is for a 
>niche market. He said that the people who will be using NT will be the sort
>of people who do not have hardware restrictions ( like home users have). The
>presenter made it very clear that NT was NOT competition for Windows 3.1. He
>*stressed* these points.
> 
>I have no reason to assume he was lying.
> 
>Steve

Steve, you shouldn't have any reason to assume that he was lying.  Since
I also don't believe that you're lying, I can simply say that the presenter
simply didn't know what he was talking about.

Before this incorrect information goes any farther, let me correct a few
things.

	1. The NT alpha will run (slowly!) with 8 megs on a 386.  The
		final release should also run on this system (faster,
		hopefully).
	2. NT is not exclusively for a niche market (although it will
		probably do well in certain niches).
	3. Of course some people with hardware restrictions won't be able
		to run NT.  Depending on how low those restrictions are,
		they won't be able to run OS/2, or even Windows for that
		matter.

- Mike (a different Mike from the one you were responding to -- sorry for
	jumping in here)
From: terryfry@access.digex.com (Terry Fry)
Subject: Re: ms gave up on os/2?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Distribution: comp
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:51:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.212816.21555@msi.com> bill@msi.com writes:
>"robert fielder" (robert.fielder@canrem.com) wrote:
>: Isn't Gates the guy who said the Microsoft would write for OS/2 as
>: soon as it sold enough copies?
>: 
>: I have to wonder why anyone give this guy any credibility....
>
>Being worth 7 Billion on paper, plus the CEO of one of the largest
>software companies in the world, the maker of the ever popular MS-Windows
>might have something to do with it.  Who cares if his company made a
>decision hurt a handful of developers.
>


This developer, who wouldn't touch another MS product even if they gave
it away for free.

I refuse to get stuck again.
From: SXMRP@orca.alaska.edu (Michael R. Platzke)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: superVGA  (and misc top-blowing)
Date: 16 Aug 92 00:23:55 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <1992Aug14.233115.18003@grebyn.com> richk@grebyn.com (Richard Krehbiel) writes:
>From: richk@grebyn.com (Richard Krehbiel)
>Subject: Re: superVGA  (and misc top-blowing)
>Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:31:15 GMT

>In article <SXMRP.13.0@orca.alaska.edu> SXMRP@orca.alaska.edu (Michael R. Platzke) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug13.080540.17580@actrix.gen.nz> Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug12.125401.18428@hellgate.utah.edu> brian%jensen.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brian Sturgill) writes:
>>>> 
>>>> beta.  Borland said at the NT developers conference that they will
>>>> have the NT version out within 2 months of NT's release.
>>
>>>That should sometime in September next year then......go on! Hold your breath!
>>> 
>>Come on, every indication is that NT will be available in early 93.

>..except a serious evaluation of the current state of NT, as expressed
>by the actual preliminary SDK itself, plus some of the comments I've
>heard from MS folk here and in the MS newsgroups.  (For example, not
>long ago an MS person talked about how the security features of NT
>weren't in place yet.)

Again, I posted when I should not have.  Sorry.  I still think that it will
be available early 93, based on the amount of resources that MS is pouring
into NT, but what the hell do I know.  As regards to the security features,
would someone mind restating what was said.  As I understand, most of the
security features are already in.  The filesystem is included but not tested.
(The filesystem is a big part of the security).  As I understand it, NT will
not be certified because certification can only come to a final product, but
all the security measures will be in place.  Anyone from MS care to comment?
>>Or maybe
>>they could release a beta version in December of 92 without DOS or Windows
>>16 or OS/2 1.3 support and just sell it as an LA release.

>I suspect the NT beta program will be so open that no one will
>consider NT "unavailable".

It seems that it already is.  MS sure isn't asking any questions about who
you are when you order the pre-beta (alpha?) CD.

>-- 
>Richard Krehbiel                                 richk@grebyn.com
>OS/2 2.0 will do for me until AmigaDOS for the 386 comes along...


-Michael R. Platzke (sxmrp@orca.alaska.edu)
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: What crash is a bad crash (was  Re: pc week and nt)
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:26:28 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug11.190655.27153@microsoft.com> craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell) writes:
>It's been a while since I played with the WPS, but arent the applications
>you run under the WPS children of the shell?  Aren't they killed when
>the shell dies? 

They are children of the Presentation Manager.  Just like WPS is.

>Doesn't this mean I loose work when the shell dies?

No.  The apps which require WPS are still children on the PM shell.
Not of WPS.  This is why no apps get clobbered when WPS recycles
itself.

>I can understand keeping applications away from one another, so that
>an app cannot kill the shell or other apps.  I can't understand this
>explaining away WPS crashes.

The apps aren't killing WPS.  The drive icons (and shredder and
printer icons, etc) are all part of WPS.  They are not separate, and
they (obviously) aren't protected from each other.  They're all
objects in one program.  This is why a drive icon can cause the
desktop to recycle.

And I know you're going to complain about the word "recycle" here.
Well, since it comes back up afterwards, and no work is lost, I really
can't consider it a "crash", although it isn't very nice.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy