From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men's Safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:38:41 GMT

In article <1ihundINN6g9@agate.berkeley.edu> BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NUSC.NAVY.MIL writes:
>In <1id7cjINNctb@agate.berkeley.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu writes:
>
> In article <1id4svINNbu0@agate.berkeley.edu> andyw@meaddata.com writes:
> >The difference in attitudes and feelings is your responsibility.
>
> If a woman is raped, her feelings and fears are NOT her
> responsibility and she cannot be called to task for them.
>
>True.  It is also true that if I am walking down the street, and I
>pass near a woman who has been raped, who's reaction to me simply
>walking past is fear, that I am not responsible for her fear.  Her
>rapist is responsible for her present fear, not I.
>
>Her present fear is not 'real' in that it is not caused by the
>present reality, but by her past reality which I did not share.
>Therefore, her fear is not '''real''' to me, as it's cause has not
>been part of my reality.  Yet, her fear is both subjectively (*she*
>really feels fear), and objectively (she *really* feels fear) real.

This is fine as long as you don't use it as an excuse for withholding
compassion or ignoring her predicament.  Yes it's _her_ predicament.
So what?  When another person is in _pain,_ even if their pain has
nothing to do with me, at the very least it is rude of me to ignore
it.  In doing so I leave myself open to the charge of being cruel.

>The interesting thing about human beings is that they often live
>their lives according to their past, instead of the present.  This
>causes frequent spurious reactions, but I don't see any alternative.
>We each only have one past to learn from...  Are there alternatives?

While this may well be true, it comes awfully close to blaming the
victim.  It takes a lot of work to overcome traumas from the past.
Our culture provides precious little support for people doing so.
And so, those who have been traumatized in the past are typically
left stranded there; any progress they make is usually made despite
the prevailing mores in our culture, in which avoidance and denial
are the norm.

>Women seem to typically choose avoidance, Men seem to typically
>choose mastery.  Why is this?  Is it because women experience more
>pain then men?  I strongly disagree.  Everyone experiences pain and
>fear in their lives; I strongly believe that it is false to say that
>women experience more objective pain and fear.  However, it is
>definitely true that men experience less subjective pain and fear.
>Why?  Because (typically) they choose to master pain and fear, and
>while they may suffer the cost, they count the cost worthwhile, and
>discount or ignore it.  Once the fear is mastered, and the pain
>discounted, they have no subjective reality any more.  In this sense
>men are typicially worse off, in that they deny a part of their own
>reality constantly.

I really must question this.  Really.  This sounds like something a
drill instructor might say.  "Mastery?"  Please.  There are certain
types of pain and discomfort that most men take great pains to avoid.
Grief being one.  And what's the difference between mastery and
denial?  Women and men may well choose different strategies for coping
with different types of pain.  But to generalize in this way shows
that you haven't yet put yourself in a woman's shoes--that you have no
basis for identifying with a woman's position, and therefore that you
have no basis for drawing such conclusions.  Your perspective is
utterly biased.  It is no wonder that your response here leaves the
impression that you would be incapable of responding with compassion
in the moment to the pain and fear displayed by a mere woman (even
though, really, it's not her fault that she's so inept at dealing with
her pain).  In a word, your paragraph above is patronizing.

When a woman's painful past is unwittingly triggered by your presence
or actions, are you going to launch into some condescending
explaination of how her fear is or isn't real to you, or are you going
to find a way to reassure her about her current safety, so that she
can take that opportunity to work her issues through?

>My preferance would be to teach everyone to experience their pain and
>fear; to feel fully and experience their reality fully.  And further
>to master and control their pain and fear.  To learn from the past,
>and yet live in the present, rether then reliving pain and fear.

This would be my preference also.  But since it just doesn't work that
way, we have to help each other along as best we can.  I apologize for
being a bit rough with you above, but that bit about "mastery" really
got to me.

>Jim Baranski

-r

--
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments should be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.