HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Dad-Kid Divorce Prohibition: Use vs Abuse
Date: 6 Oct 1992 22:38:18 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82
Summary: The good old days

Duane Hentrich writes:
>Where and when was divorce illegal in the western world? I was under the

It's still illegal in Ireland.  Wasn't that long ago it was
illegal in Italy.

Divorce has been "legal" in most or all states in the US for as long
as I can remember, but it wasn't practical for most people until the
late '60's or early '70's when the laws were changed & no-fault
divorce came into fashion.  Before then, you [typically?] had to go thru a
court trial, you had to prove the other party was unfaithful or beat
you or whatever was legal grounds for divorce -- grounds for divorce,
can you dig it? In fact the divorcing couple sometimes staged these
events so this evidence could be brot to court.

Except in that bastion of family values, Nevada.  I'm foggy on the
details but I think Nevada had easy divorce laws & no waiting periods
for either marriage or divorce, so you could fly out, get split, & get
rehitched, & get on with your life, if you had the doremi.  These
last 2 paragraphs are strictly from memory, I can't cite you a
source for the info.
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Roe v. Wade for Men!
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:34:37 GMT
Organization: HP Western Response Center

The National Center For Men is preparing to litigate the equivalent of Roe V. 
Wade for *men's reproductive rights*. Below are excerpts of a letter written by 
Joe Appelbaum, the litigation chairman for the National Center For Men.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Begin Excerpts <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Fighting For Fairness and Equal Rights
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                       Post Office Box 317
                                                       Brooklyn, New York 11240
                                                       Telephone (718) 845-2010

	We are attempting to overturn very sexist laws which deny men the
right to decline fatherhood in this age of "reproductive freedom" for women.

	A man's life, future and wallet are currently in the hands of his 
female partner if she gets pregnant and decides to have the child contrary
to his wishes. He is denied any say in the matter. He is not allowed to say, 
"I do not choose to be a father and I don't want to be held financially
responsible for this child." We are going to petition the federal courts to
permit a man, prior to fetal viability, to go into a family court and 
relinquish rights and responsibilities to the unborn child. We want a legal
"right to choose," too.

	Our attorney, Robert Smith, has agreed to take this case "pro bono,"
but we still have to cover his expenses. I, myself, have pledged $200 for
this case (I was a paternity suit victim). If you have been, too, there is
no need for me to emphasize the importance of this lawsuit. If you haven't
been (yet), try to imagine a deceptive and uncaring woman taking you to 
court to force you to support a child, when you were never given a choice.
The financial consequences alone could total over $100,000 for twenty-one
years or more.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><> End Excerpts <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

We can use this filing as an opportunity to raise America's consciousness 
about men's lack of reproductive rights. We would like to maximize media 
interest by simultaneously petitioning the federal courts in other districts 
nationwide. If you would like to join us, you can

	1.) Distribute this letter far and wide.

	2.) Help find an attorney in your area who will file papers in federal 
	    court.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

Support $ by state are interesting, but don't counties have their own support
guidelines which the municipal courts use? That's how it work in California.
From: woody@wolves.uucp (Woody Muller)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:46:22 GMT
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC
X-Md4-Signature: 69a431e8ab21af1ad16b44e377c0a6b8

>I wish my wife's ex- thought this way.  He refused permission for me to
>adopt my wife's daughters (ending his child support obligations), saying
>that he wanted to "keep control of the kids."

I sometimes wonder what I'd do if my ex ever married somebody who wanted
to adopt my son.  I think my decision would be affected by what I thought
of the person after meeting him.  I sometimes fancy that I'd offer him
the chance to "buy out my share" of the kid (cash me out on all the support
money I've spent raising him).

-- 
woody@wolves.durham.nc.us
"Nothing in human affairs is worth any great anxiety."  -Plato
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:3375 soc.men:17166 soc.women:17231
From: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Dads Divorce Kids
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:49:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Sep30.224914.3626
Reply-To: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Organization: University of Washington

A mom (maid-parent) can divorce her
child by abortion foster homes or adoption.
Now a child may divorce his parents.
Only the dad (wallet parent) has no
right to divorce his kids.  He has no
right to earn less money -- he has no
right to keep his wages or assets --
He's made a slave by the financial gang rapists.

Women and children first -- let the man die!

According to most state laws anyone can 
petition the court to divroce a parent 
from his/her kids.  But in practice Dads
have not been able to do this.

DON'T KILL DADS IN THE NAME OF KIDS!
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: wcaceres@lonestar.utsa.edu (Wendy K. Caceres)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 06:58:37 GMT

>Some argue that men win 50-75 percent of their custody battles,
>however, what is not often mentioned is that 75% of custody is
>uncontested and the children go to the mother, hence men only wind
>up custodial parents in about 12% of the cases, and often only after a
>fight.
>

and what is your theory about why 75% of the cases are uncontested?  i
think i know why MY dad didn't fight for custody -- i am just interested
in hearing your explanation of this phenomenon.

-wkmc





Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.couples
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 15:22:11 GMT

In article <1687372D4.M20614@mwvm.mitre.org> M20614@mwvm.mitre.org (Hugh Pritchard) writes:
>I wish my wife's ex- thought this way.  He refused permission for me to
>adopt my wife's daughters (ending his child support obligations), saying
>that he wanted to "keep control of the kids."  And there's a clause in
>their divorce settlement that makes him responsible for half the costs
>should the girls choose to go straight on to college!
> 
>**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616  [Spouse of a CP]

	There are many more men who wish the ex's new husband had
	that attitude; a realistic one where he really is more of
	a father than the legal system admits.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:44:55 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <1992Oct3.144840.14716@ll.mit.edu>, yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
> In article <1992Oct2.221630.6791@kpc.com> dennisp@kpc.com (Dennis Preston) writes:
>>(42% physical custody). I do agree that child support is _outrageous_ to
>>the tune of $800.00 per month for one child. I would never let that be
> 
> 	Boy, do I wish I had $800/month to spend on my daughter or
> 	family.  Sad part is if I ever get reviewed, that's probably
> 	what I'll be paying  (Tick Tock)
> 
> -- 
> 	Alan Yasutovich
> 	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
> 	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
> 	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......

Wow, my foster son's father thinks it is absolutely highway robbery that
he has to pay $368 a month.  Mike gets the $68 to put away for college
and some of his expenses, we get the $300.  Plus out of the $300 we provide
him an allowance, transportation to all his sporting events, food, shelter,
entertainment, a really nice vacation every year....... (this Christmas
we will spend a week at a condo in the Florida Keys)....  And his dad 
accuses us of 'profiting!'.

Sue
From: mstemper@ems.cdc.com (Michael Stemper)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:51:12 GMT
Reply-To: mstemper@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of Ceridian

In article <1992Oct2.065837.7784@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>, wcaceres@lonestar.utsa.edu (Wendy K. Caceres) writes:
|> and what is your theory about why 75% of the cases are uncontested?  i
|> think i know why MY dad didn't fight for custody -- i am just interested
|> in hearing your explanation of this phenomenon.

I didn't fight for custody because my lawyer told me that I didn't have
a chance of getting it - because I'm male.

-- 
#include <Standard_Disclaimer.h>
Michael F. Stemper
Power Systems Consultant
mstemper@ems.cdc.com
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Subject: 123
Reply-To: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 00:20:15 GMT

1234
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 00:25:18 GMT
Subject: Forced Fatherhoods Per Year
Organization: HP Western Response Center
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

How many men are forced to become fathers? 

The Federal Office of Child Support Enforcement keeps track of how many
paternities have been established in the U.S. They published these totals in
their 1990 Congressional Report(1):


            Year    Paternities Established
                          Per Year
           ----------------------------------

            1986           245,000
            1987           269,000
            1988           307,000
            1989           339,000
            1990           393,000

                                  Paternities Established
                                          Per Year
        |
400,000 |                                                   XXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |                                                   XXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |                                     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
300,000 |                        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |           XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
200,000 |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
100,000 |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
           1986         1987         1988         1989          1990


The report defines "paternities established" as 

	"Legal establishment of fatherhood for a child after the opening 
	of a child support enforcement case, either by court determination
	or voluntary acknowledgment in states where that is legally 
	admissible."

The annual growth rate in "paternities established" is about 12%. The World
Almanac(2) says that the population in the U. S. only grew 1% per year during
the 1980s. Their data was based on the U. S. census. 


				References

1.) 1990 Congressional Report by the Office of Child Support Enforcement,
    Washington D.C. 

2.) World Almanac, 1991.
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:3385 soc.couples:3868
From: slayer@gl.pitt.edu (Deborah)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.couples
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:53:43 GMT
Followup-To: alt.child-support

>>I wish my wife's ex- thought this way.  He refused permission for me to
>>adopt my wife's daughters (ending his child support obligations), saying
>>that he wanted to "keep control of the kids."  And there's a clause in
>>their divorce settlement that makes him responsible for half the costs
>>should the girls choose to go straight on to college!
>> 
>>**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616  [Spouse of a CP]
>
>	There are many more men who wish the ex's new husband had
>	that attitude; a realistic one where he really is more of
>	a father than the legal system admits.

Well I am one of those kids who got screwed out of money cause my father
decided he did not want to pay child support. I am grown up now.. But
since I moved out of the country he decided that he could get away with
not paying any more child support.. He did not pay for my education,
he did not pay for a damn thing.. He disowned me out of spite because
my Mom decided to get remarried and leave the country.. Well it's still
a very open wound for me.. I think that even if the fathers can't pay
child support they should at least send a card on thier birthday how hard
is it to do that? Or how about a letter just to say hi.. Well I did not
get any of that that the last thing I ever recieved from my father was
an Elvis Presley radio taht didn't work.. You probably think I am real
selfish since I did not give my Mom's new husband a chance but beleive
me I did. And he taught me what I know right now on dead-beat fathers.
I hurt him because I would not let him adopt me because I thought hey
maybe someday my Dad might straighten his act out and think about what he
did.. Boy was I wrong


-- 
May look a little young 
So what's wrong ?
You don't have to be old to be wise
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.couples
From: M20614@mwvm.mitre.org (Hugh Pritchard)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 12:09:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.155910.5273@walter.cray.com>
jsw@cray.com (Jon S. Wood) writes:
 
>It floors me to think that the courts could mandate a father's
>obligation to support his child by requiring the father to pay
>the child's college education. Do-gooders think otherwise.
 
Yep, I was surprised when I read that decision, too.  And the decision
I was referring to was against a COUPLE, not divorced parents.
 
>My mandate to my ex is, "you better be saving a chunk of that
>child support, I'm not saving a damn thing. I've got no
>retirement, I sure as hell have no bleepin' college savings
>account. You will have to explain to the spoiled kids when they
>are 18 what YOU did with the $150,000.00 in child support you
>received. You will have to account for it, not me."
 
She probably spent it on child care (about $100/week where I live)
so she could work to pay other costs (rent, utilities, new underwear,
food, school field trip fees, medical care not covered by insurance,
the occasional night out at McDonald's, etc.).
 
Sounds as though you're angry and bitter.  Going to let this get in the way
of caring for your children?
 
>Once again for the feminist hearing impaired, Child support isn't
>to help children, it is alimony.
 
I wish my wife's ex- thought this way.  He refused permission for me to
adopt my wife's daughters (ending his child support obligations), saying
that he wanted to "keep control of the kids."  And there's a clause in
their divorce settlement that makes him responsible for half the costs
should the girls choose to go straight on to college!
 
**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616  [Spouse of a CP]
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 14:48:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.221630.6791@kpc.com> dennisp@kpc.com (Dennis Preston) writes:
>(42% physical custody). I do agree that child support is _outrageous_ to
>the tune of $800.00 per month for one child. I would never let that be

	Boy, do I wish I had $800/month to spend on my daughter or
	family.  Sad part is if I ever get reviewed, that's probably
	what I'll be paying  (Tick Tock)

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
From: M20614@mwvm.mitre.org (Hugh Pritchard)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Dads Divorce Kids
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:47:15 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102

In article <1992Sep30.224914.3626@u.washington.edu>
zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample) writes:
                      ------ ?
 
>Women and children first -- let the man die!
 
Sounds good to me, Jeff.
 
**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616  [Spouse of a CP]
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: dennisp@kpc.com (Dennis Preston)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computer Inc, Santa Clara, CA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 22:16:30 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.184622.29732@wolves.uucp> woody@wolves.uucp (Woody Muller) writes:
>>I wish my wife's ex- thought this way.  He refused permission for me to
>>adopt my wife's daughters (ending his child support obligations), saying
>>that he wanted to "keep control of the kids."
>
>I sometimes wonder what I'd do if my ex ever married somebody who wanted
>to adopt my son.  I think my decision would be affected by what I thought
>of the person after meeting him.  I sometimes fancy that I'd offer him
>the chance to "buy out my share" of the kid (cash me out on all the support
>money I've spent raising him).
>
There is no way that I would ever allow someone else to adopt my son.
He is MY son, I love him dearly, I am *very* involved in his upbringing
(42% physical custody). I do agree that child support is _outrageous_ to
the tune of $800.00 per month for one child. I would never let that be
the basis for an adoption decision. Yes, I did see the "sometimes I fancy"
part, this is just my .02
>-- 
>woody@wolves.durham.nc.us
>"Nothing in human affairs is worth any great anxiety."  -Plato


Xref: sparky alt.child-support:3378 soc.men:17169 soc.women:17234
From: baba@Tymnet.com (Duane Hentrich)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Dads Divorce Kids
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:42:32 GMT
Followup-To: alt.child-support
Organization: BT North America, San Jose CA.

In article <1992Sep30.224914.3626@u.washington.edu>, zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample) writes:
	[nothing new]

Hey, do you know a guy named Jeff who used EuStress as a nomme d'nette?
(nudge nudge, wink wink)

-- 
d'baba Duane M. Hentrich	baba@Tymnet.Com

We have yet to learn that the thing uttered in words is not therefore affirmed. It must affirm itself, or no forms of logic or of oath can give it evidence. 
The sentence must also contain its own apology for being spoken. - R.W.Emerson
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 23:49:30 GMT
Subject: Forced Fatherhood Survey Results
Organization: HP Western Response Center
Newsgroups: alt.child-support


                          Results of Pilot Survey of 
                         Men Forced to Become Fathers


Do you feel comfortable discussing your 'forced fatherhood'?

Yes             28%
No              43%
Other           14%
Not Available   14%


Were you and the mother married?

Yes             28%
No              71%
Other            0%
Not Available    0%


Did you live together?

Yes             28%
No              28%
Other           14%
Not Available   28%


Did you want to have a child?

Yes              0%
No             100%
Other            0%
Not Available    0%


Did she?

Yes             57%
No               0%
Other           28%
Not Available   14%


Did you want an abortion?

Yes             43%
No               0%
Other           28%
Not Available   28%


Did she?

Yes              0%
No              71%
Other           14%
Not Available   14%


Did you want to put the child up for adoption?

Yes             43%
No              28%
Other            0%
Not Available   28%


Did she?

Yes              0%
No              71%
Other            0%
Not Available   28%


Did she sue you for child support?

Yes             57%
No               0%
Other           28%
Not Available   14%


Do you know anyone else who has been forced to be a father?

Yes             57%
No              14%
Other            0%
Not Available   28%


==============================================================================

Survey sample size              7

Gender of survey respondents
        Male                   86%
        Female                 14%  (She responded because her significant 
                                     other would not)
Occupation
        Computer literate:     100%

When survey was taken:         From 7/23/92 to 9/25/92

Geography of respondents:      U. S. nationwide 

Survey method:                 Internet questionnaire and personal
                               correspondence

Survey conducted by            Kingsley G. Morse Jr.

=============================================================================

Future Research:

1.) Need a larger sample size
2.) Need more demographic info for both the man and woman
	Age
	Location
	Race
	Occupation
	Political affiliation
	Income
3.) Ask when she decided to have a child instead of if she decided to have
a child.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.couples
From: M20614@mwvm.mitre.org (Hugh Pritchard)
Subject: Re: What a Problem!!!
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:26:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.043039.26375@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:
 
> In article <73740054@hpsad.sad.hp.com> sam@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Vicky Hansen) wries:
> [Long piece whining about it not being "fair" that divorced couples
>  are "forced" to support their children through college, while intact
>  couples apparently aren't.]
>
> Vicky, is there any law which "forces" you to pay for your children's
> college expenses?
 
Seems to me I've read of court decisions (not laws, decisions) that DID
indeed force intact couples to pay for their offspring's college educations.
 
The reasoning was that the child was raised in an affluent household, with
every expectation of attending college, therefore it was the duty of the
parents to make an effort to complete their children's education.  The
offspring won their suits, forcing their parents to pay.
 
Most of us parents reading the net, coupled or uncoupled, would be considered
affluent by a court -- at least by the time our children are of college age.
 
**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616  [Spouse of a CP]
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:3425 soc.men:17392 soc.women:17427
From: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Dad-Kid Divorce Prohibition: Use vs Abuse
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:17:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct6.221711.9030
Reply-To: zzz@u.washington.edu (Sample)
Organization: University of Washington

Duane Hentrich writes
> Where and when was divorce illegal in the western world? I was under the
> impression that divorce for cause was always an option at least on some
> of the States.

   Isn't it still illegal in Ireland?

> And, Jeff, why do you continually hide behind aliases? 
> Blinded by the light?

  Stop blinding me with your great words of wisdom!
  I cower before your prowess.  Which other great 
  demigod of eternal wisdom could have spewed forth:
           "more of his sloganizing deleted"

Your contributions to the topic have sent my mind 
whirling in thought.  I anxiously await your next
flood of data.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support