HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:04:12 GMT
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab

In article <1992Sep10.032732.16722@leland.Stanford.EDU>, whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:
> In article <1992Sep9.193628.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:
> 
>>_The_Killer_Angels_ was okay, I guess, but I had a hard time imagining that
>>"Old Pete" Longstreet was so filled with angst and introspection during the
>>battle. I enjoyed the parts about the 20th Maine better. Just one man's 
>>opinion.
>>
> Actually, from reading firsthand memoirs of the battles, it appears that
> he was indeed that filled with angst and introspection. He seriously 
> believe that Lee was throwing away a guaranteed victory in the war. Of
> course, Longstreet wrote his memoirs in 1895 and was definitely suffering
> from convenient memory. But other people's memoirs also refer to Longstreet's
> lack of confidence in the attack and his general air of introspection. See
> for example E. Porter Alexander (or so I hear, I haven't read that one.)
> -- 
> Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
> 
> "We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly

I agree that "Old Pete" was filled with something in 1895. I think "vitriol"
is more discriptive than "angst". I think my problem with the book is that
I had already formed a rather clear metal picture of Longstreet before I 
read _Killer_Angles_. In my mind he spoke his mind to Lee, was rejected, 
then did his part like a "good soldier" without any self-recrimination.
I understand that the author was using "poetic license" to express thoughts
that may have haunted "Old Pete" and others long after the battle. It 
just didn't work that well for me.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV  (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL S. PRESTON, ESQ.)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: martinsburg, wv
Date: 15 Sep 92 02:12:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

although virginian by birth, i grew up in martinsburg wv until
i was fifteen or so. martinsburg has a bit of civil war history
to it, but some of it has gone hazy in my mind, and i'm hoping
someone could help me with some facts. i do remember learning
in school that jackson burned down the roundhouse in the railyard
and used horses to draw a train from there to winchester va (about
40 miles south). the town changed hands roughly 5 times during the
war, and i'm sure the citizens were subject to the fears of taking
alligiance to either side, and not knowing who would be in control
the next day. 

the town is about 45 minutes from Harper's Ferry, site
of John Brown's raid in 1859, and about as far from antietam/sharpsburg.

the part that has sort of faded for me is the story of belle boyd,
a female spy who lived in martinsburg. the boyd house "boydville",
it's called, still stands and was restored to period condition 
the last time i was there (about 10 years ago). i remember hearing
how she used to listen through the floorboards in an upstairs room
to the conversations of soldiers who had taken over the house, and 
how she would give the information to the other side. now i don't
remember *which* side she spied for (maybe both), and if there are
any other details i have forgotten. if anyone can help me out with
information on belle boyd, or martinsburg's role in the war, i would
greatly appreciate any help. 

mike simpson
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 03:27:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.193628.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:

>_The_Killer_Angels_ was okay, I guess, but I had a hard time imagining that
>"Old Pete" Longstreet was so filled with angst and introspection during the
>battle. I enjoyed the parts about the 20th Maine better. Just one man's 
>opinion.
>
Actually, from reading firsthand memoirs of the battles, it appears that
he was indeed that filled with angst and introspection. He seriously 
believe that Lee was throwing away a guaranteed victory in the war. Of
course, Longstreet wrote his memoirs in 1895 and was definitely suffering
from convenient memory. But other people's memoirs also refer to Longstreet's
lack of confidence in the attack and his general air of introspection. See
for example E. Porter Alexander (or so I hear, I haven't read that one.)
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly
From: daggs@l42bb.jsc.nasa.gov (Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Celts vs English or ASW as seen by McWhiney & Jamieson
Date: 8 Sep 1992 13:55:42 GMT
Organization: Houston Civil War Roundtable

In article <1992Sep6.024823.19034@cs.tulane.edu> don@q-aais.navo.navy.mil (Don
Newcomb) writes:
>I would like to know how our gentle and learned readers consider
>the theory of McWhiney & Jamieson regarding the causes and
>execution of the ACW. This theory can be best stated by this
>quote from their book _Attack & Die_:
> 
> "...-the majority of the white people  in the South on the 1860s
>were of Celtic origins and most of those who were not had become
>culturally Celticized; the majority in  the North were of English
>origins and many who were not had become culturally Anglicized."
>  "This cultural dichotomy  in America was not only the major
>cause Civil War but it explains why the war was fought the way
>it was. Because the American Civil War was basically a continuation
>of the centuries-old conflict between Celts and Englishmen, it
>is understandable that Southerners would fight as their Celtic
>ancestors had and that  Yankees would follow the ways of their
>English forebears, even to the extent od recruiting foreigners
>and blacks to do  some of their fighting for them."
> 
>Please also, let me know if you have read this book or other
>writings by the authors.
> 
>_Attack & Die, Civil War Military Tactics and the Southern
>Heritage_, McWhiney, G. & Jamieson, P., Univ. of Ala. Press,
>Tuscaloosa, 1982. (p. 178)
>
>*******************************************************************
>* Donald R. Newcomb                * Views expressed are strictly *
>* Naval Oceanographic Office       * those of the author. Mention *
>* Stennis Space Center, MS 39522   * of commercial products or    *
>* newcomb@navo.navy.mil            * organizations in no way      *
>* Phone (601) 688-5998             * constitutes an endorsement.  *
>*******************************************************************
>

	Having read a book entitled _Albion's Seed, Four British Folkways
in America_ I find much merit in Dr. McWhiney & Jamieson's viewpoint.
In fact the conflicts that would seem to originate from cultural 
differences between British emigrants and their descendants go (in
my humble opinion) much deeper than this one war.

	If you ever get a chance to hear Dr. McWhiney (or any of his
students) speak in person, I strongly recommend it.

Clark J. Daggs
1864 El Mar Ln.
Seabrook, Texas 77586
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Juneteenth Day (was Re: Secession Crisis Lit)
Date: 12 Sep 1992 19:42:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <cld1.716322206@Isis.MsState.Edu> cld1@ra.msstate.edu (Charles L. Dunn) writes:
>June 19 was the day the federal gunboat entered Galveston Harbor to enforce
>emancipation.

The troops under the command of Gen. E. Kirby Smith were surrendered to
Gen. E.R.S. Canby by Gen. S.B. Buckner (Smith's agent) an 26 May 1865.
Smith himself signed the surrender accord on 2 June 1865 aboard the 
Federal steamer "Fort Jackson" off the bar of Galveston Harbor.  (all
from Robert L. Kerby, "Kirby Smith's Confederacy")

The 19th of June is significant, as Mr. Dunn pointed out, because on that
day, Gen. Gordon Grainger sailed into Galveston harbor, and issued a
proclamation declaring slavery in Texas officially at an end.

A final bit of trivia:
   General Stand Watie, of the Cherokee Nation, was the last Confederate
General to surrender-- he did so on 23 June 1865.
--
Justin M. Sanders    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance"
Dept. of Physics        --last words of Gen. John Sedgwick
Kansas State Univ.
Xref: sparky alt.war.civil.usa:1143 alt.appalachian:695
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa,alt.appalachian
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:58:53 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Distribution: usa
Organization: SGI TechPubs

In article <goose.716148355@camelot>, Bradley Riley writes:
>This is very true.  The succsession of the states of the south was not based
>soley on slavery. At the time, there was still massive fighting( non-physical) about the 
>power of the government and the power of the states....And with the 
>possibility of freeing slaves, their economy would have fallen and they thought
>the government was out to GET THEM!!

But go one level deeper, and you find that the power of the Fed vs. power of the states
battles were based on slavery. If it were not so, then why were all the compromises
based on keeping the balance of slave and free states equal in the Senate? 

JZ
From: morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Paul Morphy and the Civil War
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:13:55 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson) writes:

>In article <1992Sep9.143959.3219@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>>Does anyone know what Paul Morphy did during the civil war? Morphy was the first
>>American to lay claim to the title of World Chess Champion. He was a youngster
>>in his teens during the war, from what I remember.

>   I believe he was in his twentys and spent the war in France.  Despite
>being a world champion chess player he couldn't get an officer's 
>commision in the CSA army.  

How come? I thought they were pretty hard up for manpower, and could have
used him for *something*.
Jones
-- 
Jones M Murphy Jr                                        (212) 602-4375
NatWest Investment Bancorp, National Westminster Bank PLC
100 Wall Street, New York, NY10005                   FAX (212) 269-0113
From: tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas J. Joyce)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Celts vs English or ASW as seen by McWhiney & Jamieson
Date: 6 Sep 92 23:22:39 GMT
Organization: Administrative Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Hmmmm. That's one I haven't heard before. Interesting conjecture; I don't
think there's any way to really prove it, though.

The Celts are an extremely proud people and can be stiffnecked too
(being an Irishman I can say that). But then again, doesn't that
apply to just about *every* nationality?

I think I remember seeing a program on PBS a few years back about
the English language. There was one segment about about American
English, particularly in the South. The proposition was that the
Southern accent was a descendant/derivative of Irish and Scotch
accents. (which is really one since the Scoth came from the
Hiberno-Norman tribes in Ireland -- ooh, that'll stir up some
controversy)

Tom Joyce (of the County Galway  Joyces :-) )
Carnegie-Mellon Administrative Systems
(usual disclaimers apply)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.221013.1205@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, whijv2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (WHITAKER JASON) writes...
>I was wondering if any novels have been based on the Civil War?
> 
>Could anyone mail me or post to this group.


Well aside from ones I've already seen mentioned, there is always "Gone With
the Wind" too.

By the way, I highly recommend "The Killer Angels".


Dave

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Poetic License (was Re: Reenactment)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:26:00 GMT

In article <2925477496.6.p00098@mail.psi.net>, p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Murphy Jr) writes...
>>For those of you in North/Central California:
>>There will be a Reenactment event on Saturday, Sept. 12 and Sunday 
>>Sept. 13, in Nevada City, California.  [...]
> 
>Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism?
>Jones

Well ah, gee Jones, are you volunteering?


Dave

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson)
Subject: Re: Paul Morphy and the Civil War
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 18:17:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.143959.3219@cco.caltech.edu> morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes:
>Does anyone know what Paul Morphy did during the civil war? Morphy was the first
>American to lay claim to the title of World Chess Champion. He was a youngster
>in his teens during the war, from what I remember.

   I believe he was in his twentys and spent the war in France.  Despite
being a world champion chess player he couldn't get an officer's 
commision in the CSA army.
From: helwig@niktow.canisius.edu (Bevvy Helwig)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Gettysburg
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:41:06 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208


   Does any one know if they are having anything special in Gettysburg
around July 1993? It's the 130th anniversary and I want to make reservations
now if they are. I was trying to get a hotel down there for the 125th but
every hotel was sold out for weeks before during and after the anniversary
dates {July 1, 2, & 3}.
   Please either e-mail to me here or at beverlyh@fonsrv00.fonorola.com or
just post your answer here.
   Thanks!

-- Bev Helwig
   fONOROLA CORP.
   Buffalo, NY
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: haley@bluemoon.rn.com (Michael J. Kirschenba)
Subject: Nathan Bedford Forrest:Any books?
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 08:23:35 EDT

  I was wondering if any one out there knows of any literature regarding
Nathan Bedford Forrest. I only know of one work: "The First with the
Most" published in the 40's (I know Forrest never made the quote used
as the book's title) but I am looking for any other works describing
the life of Old Bedford. It would seem to me that with the volumes of
literature in existance regarding Lee's various Lieutenants, and other
Confederate luminaries, that there would be more work on Forrest.
Any information/assistance will be greatly appreciated! Thanks.
                                              Regards
                                           M. Kirschenbaum
(aka:nop2293@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil)


** Michael J. Kirschenbaum --- haley@bluemoon.uucp  **

 "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the rights
 of the people by the gradual & silent encroachments of those in power
 than by violent & sudden usurpations." James Madison, Virginia Conv. 1788.
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:06:39 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

"Shiloh" by Shelby Foote
"Unto this Hour" by Tom Wicker
"The Killer Angels" by Michael Shaara
"The Red Badge of Courage" by Steven Crane
There are also short stories. Look at the works of Ambrose Bierce, and
Mark Twain.
I am sure that there are many more than this, I'm just writing of the top 
of my head, prior to my third cup of coffee this morning. Enjoy.
JTHoppers
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: trwagner@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Ted Wagner)
Subject: CW Quiz and answer
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:31:28 GMT


	The answer to the last question is:

	It was during the original drafting of the US Constitution.
1787.  3/5's rule for slaves as population in the southern states
and the south agreed to abandon slave trade with Africa within
10 years time.

*************

	QUESTION:

	Delegates formed a secret convention to consider a part
of the country for secession originally in 1814.  What *PART*
of the country first considered secssion as a proposal to solve
their problems with the federal government?  And, WHY was it considered
in the first place?

Good luck!

Answer will be posted Tuesday or Wednesday.

Ted
-- 
         Swallowing your pride rarely leads to indigestion.
         A hard thing about business is minding your own!
-trwagner@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu   &    trwagner@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Murphy Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Causes of the ACW, again (was civil war connections)
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:29:07 GMT
Organization: NatWest Investment Bancorp,National Westminster Bank PLC
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.11)

>DATE:   11 Sep 92 02:52:54 GMT
>FROM:   P. L. Cowan <cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu>

>My (rather simplistic, perhaps) view is that the crisis in the 1850's was 
>not the division between North (ie. New England, New York, NJ, Penna.) and
>the South. That tension had existed from the beginning. Instead the 
>critical change was that the West (i.e. Ohio, Ind. Ill. Mich. etc, and 
>to some extent Ky, Tenn and Mo.) switched their alliance from the South 
>to the North. The tariff-improvments linkeage was one reason for this switch. 

It's wrong to say that they switched their alliance. Abolitionists were 
routinely beaten, shot and hung in the states you're talking about. 
These states were generally strongly pro-slavery. What pushed them into 
the Union camp was the heavy-handedness of the South in defending 
slavery. The censorship of federal mails in search of abolitionist 
materials was one problem. I'm not sure if there has ever been mail 
censorship before or since during peacetime in the USA. Another problem 
was the "gag rule" tabling all motions against slavery in Congress. 
This was a violation of the First Amendment in the very place where it 
should have been guarded most fiercely.

Still a third problem was the Federal enforcement of the Fugitive Act, 
which stirred resentment because of the routine usurpation of state and 
local law enforcement powers it generated. It is interesting that the 
Southerners were quite silent on "States Rights" where the kidnapping of 
Africans without habeas corpus was concerned. Since Africans were given 
no rights of appeal or trial whatsoever, it was commonplace for free 
Africans in the North to be apprehended, supposedly as fugitives, and 
sold or even given for a bribe to white Southerners.

>Still, one must go back to slavery as the main problem. The westerners 
>had mostly migrated to the west to establish new farms on "free soil". 
>The fear that they or their children would lose this option due to the
>incursion of large plantations based on black slavery into the Lousiania
>Territory was the biggest issue.

Make no mistake, though. The white westerners were very ambivalent. They 
feared abolition because they felt that it would unleash hordes of 
migrant Negroes who would move into their neighborhoods and bring down 
property values. This seriously undermined support for abolition in the 
North and West.

The South had simply grown absolutely corrupt with the absolute power 
they held over the African hostages in their evil grip. They attempted 
to extend their rampant human rights abuses to white people and gave 
them a rude awakening.
Jones
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:44:42 GMT

In <1992Sep11.132708.15655@midway.uchicago.edu> cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink) writes:

>In article <goose.716147986@camelot> goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley) writes:
>>Mines not very direct at all.  However, my mom's mom was a Lee.  Progressing
>>back to Robert E Lee's grandfather.  I suppose that makes General Lee my
>>g-g-g-uncle or something like that.  Like I said, not very direct.

>That would make you a first cousin, x times removed (where x is the number of
>generations back to your ancestor who was R.E. Lee's first cousin.)  
>Lighthorse Harry Lee would be your (x+1)great-uncle.

Great!! That makes Harry Lee my Great-Uncle 7 times removed.  Little off the
track but wasn't Lighthorse Harry Lee part of General Washingtons staff?
I never found nor looked extensivly enough to find info on Mr. Lee but I am
interested.  If you know a source, could you mail me that source.  Thanks.


--
and if i should falter
would you open your arms out to me
we can make love not war
and live at peace with our hearts
		A little respect                  Bradley A. Riley
	        Erasure-the innocents	 	  goose@camelot.bradley.edu
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Original 13th Amendment
Date: 14 Sep 1992 01:29:29 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

While doing some research on the secession crisis (prompted by another
thread in this newsgroup), I came across an interesting fact which was
new to me (or I had thoroughly forgotten it).

On March 2, 1861, Congress passed a constitutional amendment (said to be
supported by Lincoln) which provided that no amendment to the Constitution
could be made which would give Congress the power to interfere with
domestic institutions of the states including slavery.

The amendment was, of course, never ratified, but it would have been the
13th instead of the REAL 13th which abolished slavery.

Of course, the amendment was too little too late as far as the seceding 
states were concerned, but it does indicate how far the Republicans were
prepared to go to accomodate the South ...(pardon me) the Southern white
slaveholding power elite :-).
--
Justin M. Sanders    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance"
Dept. of Physics        --last words of Gen. John Sedgwick
Kansas State Univ.
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: afallen@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (E. Allen Arrington)
Subject: Another reenactment
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: 1st Kentucky Cavalry Co. C
Date: 14 Sep 1992 12:52 EST  

There will be a reenactment/living history event held on September 26-27 
near Spencer and Chatham, Ohio (about 1 hr south west of Cleveland).  Y'all 
come on down and see us.

E. Allen Arrington  
        Trooper, 1st Kentucky Cavalry, Co. C  (CS/US)
        Mounted Memorial Unit
and Mason (a darn fine horse)