From: chiuf@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: Re: Violence against women....
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:50:44 GMT


In article <1992Sep21.224219.19570@yang.earlham.edu>, dsimkins@yang.earlham.edu writes:
> In article <7278@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com>, blamb@rodan.hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:
>> 
> (lots of good discussion about rape and rape awareness in Japan deleted)
> 
> 
>> I don't find it quite so disturbing. If anything, it does show an
>> uninformed attitude as to what the crime of rape consists of, but
>> once again, it doesn't mean that the Japanese are raising 85% of
>> their boys to be rapists. Rape is a viloent crime, not a sex crime
>> per se. The rapist seeks to hurt and humiliate his victim, and 
>> rapists know it isn't going to be an enjoyable experience for the
>> women that they rape. So assuming that a woman might enjoy rape
>> is misinformation or an unreasoned assumption, just as it was here
>> 20 years ago. People who have that naive point of view see rape as
>> act of sex rather than an act of violence. It will be difficult to
>> convince me that this means that Japanese have any more or less
>> propensity to commit the act of rape.
> 
> You are talking about a specific brand of rape, violent rape.  I believe 
> that it is also valid to talk about date rape.  If 85% of Japanese men 
> think that women enjoy being raped, don't you think that they are just a 
> little more likely to go ahead and push their date a little further than 
> they want to go?  Perhaps they will push her a lot further than they want 
> to go.  She (being a human being of any sex or race) may feel somehow 
> obligated to this person.  Perhaps she wants to have sex at some level, 
> but isn't really ready yet.  Perhaps she simply does not understand well 
> enough to know the implications (I know a lot of young people in the 
> United States who have grown up bombarded by sex education, and still 
> "forget" to use proper precautions when having sex).  Date rape is no 
> always a violent crime.  It is still a crime, however, and should be 
> treated as such.
>> 
> (more stuff deleted)
> 
>> => >Do you (or someone else) have access to stats citing 
>> => >incidence of violent crimes against women in the US and Japan?
>> => >It would be interesting to have some such comparison at that
>> => >level.
>> 
>> => As for stats, they are skewed, often purposefully, in Japan's favor.
>> => Japan is safer than the US, no question about it, but not as much as
>> => statistics would indicate. If a dispute or a problem can be resolved
>> => without going to the police. Or if the police can resolve it
>> => *unofficially*, they do. That's the way Japan works and I have no
>> => problem with it. But we must remember this *fact* when calling for
>> => statistical comparisons between these two very different societies.
>> 
>> I doubt the police resolve many crimes of rape *unoffically*. So here
>> I think the statistical comparison might be valid. You can't have it both
>> ways: the *2500* police chase, _and_ the slap on the wrist. You can't
>> use one to argue punishment or capture as a deterrent, and the other
>> as a basis for skewing the statistics in Japan's favor.
> 
> Once again, I would not be surprised if date rape were resolved 
> unofficially fairly often.  In fact, date rape is resolved unofficially 
> almost all the time _in the United States_.  We are not innocent of 
> shoving rape under the carpet, and neither are the Japanese.
>> 
>> => And another thing, if we include date rape in the scenario, I would
>> => have to conclude that it is extremely common in Japan. In fact it
>> => appears to be the de facto method by which these innocent, cutesy
>> => Japanese girls lose their virginity. 
>> 
>> You oughtta get out more :-)
>>
> Ok, one retraction.  I'm not trying to say that women in Japan always 
> refuse sex.  I'm know that they are sometimes quite willing.  So I'm not 
> talking about consentual sex, only sex without consent.
>  
>> => This goes back to very old
>> => traditions in the Japanese village (mura) where the future bridegroom
>> => is allowed into the would-be bride's bedroom by her parents without
>> => her knowledge.  In Western terms it's non-consensual sex. In Japan
>> => it's accepted as a part of courtship and would hardly be reported, and
>> => if it were, would hardly be taken seriously by the police.
>> 
>> Yeah.... and the brides always refused, and never knew about this custom
>> at all. But.... we digress, ne?
>> 
>> - Bill Lambert
> 
> David Simkins
> dsimkins@earlham.edu