From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Please Prove it to me!
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:35:50 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

julian@sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock) writes:

> dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick) writes: (really, it was
Andrew Sandlin)
> >> ... How do I and you know th
> >> it's not all made up by some lunatic way back when.
> 
> >God tells us plainly in Rom. 1 why people have problems with the
> >Christian faith: they are rebels against his law order. The problems
> >they have with the faith are not intellectual; they are ethical. The
> >sort of proof the unconverted seek will never be sufficient to convince
> >their minds apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit. All
> >unconverted men know instinctively that God exists, that he is
> ***************************************************
> >powerful, that they have violated his law, and that they deserve
> >punishment. Because of their sin, however, they suppress this truth that
>              ********************************************************
> >cries out within them at every opportunity. They must recognize that
> >any life or faith apart from God is not merely wrong, but rebellious
> >and self-frustrating. It is only on the basis of the Christian faith
> >that human life is intelligible.
> 
> WHAT???? You're not serious? This is monstrous. You are saying
> that everyone who was unfortunate enough to be born in a place where
> the Gospel had'nt been taught, or in a time when it had not reached
> them somehow knows the content of the gospel and is judged by God for
> "rejecting" it!

Andrew referenced Romans 1.  Verses 18 to 20 are close to what you
say:  "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven againnst all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in
them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of
him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood
by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so
that they are without excuse:"  (yes, that colon means interesting
things are coming in the next verse.)

> How do we know anything about God "instinctively? About all I know
> instinctively is not to put my hand in the fire because it burns.

I suspect your example describes a learned response.  When Paul says
that you hold the truth (the text justifies a translation of "hold
down" or "suppress"), he is talking about a truth that you have because
the creator put it in you.

> Do you also agree with the Inquisition that torturing a person's body
> to save their soul (and so "winning" souls for God by killing off those
> who disagree with you) is worthwhile?

No.  The Church has no physical sanctions, only the keys, that is, the
ability to withhold the sacraments, and the ability to pray prayers of
malediction (modeled, for example, on Psalm 109).  For the Church to
apply physical sanctions of any kind is unlawful.

The civil magistrate holds the sword.  Paul gets to that in chapter 13. 
The civil magistrate is to wield the sword as "a minister of God for
good" (verse 4) limited by the lex talionis ("an eye for an eye" etc.)
to apply sanctions in proportion to the offense.

There is no provision in the Law for a conviction by the civil
magistrate to be based on a confession of guilt.  Matters are to be
decided on the testimony of two or three witnesses.  Because a
confession is not admissable (to use contemporary language) torture to
extract a confession is pointless.  Torture is an invention of humans
who seek to usurp the real terrorist.

> I think you have the wrong god.

There is only one God.  Back in chapter 1, Paul says that one of things
those who are suppressing the truth do is to "worship the creature
instead of the creator" (1:25)

> julian