HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa)
Subject: Re: U` => Declension cases in Esperanto
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:59:14 GMT

In article <BxG7sE.9rs@cck.coventry.ac.uk> esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>I feel that Esperanto needs to be explained as having four or five
>cases really, namely, Nominative, Accusative, Genative, Dative and
>Ablative (as Latin, but with Vocative omitted, and possibly distinguishing
>between Dative and Ablative.)
>
>Now, I fully accept that those people who have not had to wade through
>Latin may well not have a clue what I am writing about, but I feel that
>the concept of Genative, Dative and Ablative are well worth grasping,
>then being told that the endings for the Genative, Dative and Ablative
>cases in Esperanto are exactly the same as the endings for the
>Nominative case and that the fact that they are Genative, Dative or
>Ablative is signalled by the use of an appropriate preposition.

Oh, that's right!  I have the sixteen rules in front of me and they say
"Other cases are expressed by prepositions (genitive 'de', ablative 'al',
dative 'per')."
	Of course, I have not had much experience with European languages,
so some of this stuff is Greek to me (or Latin, or whatever).  I prefer to
remember that I should use "n" for direct objects or, with a preposition, to
show direction towards and at other times just use the plain noun.
	But I've been influenced by having English as my mother tongue.
To use genitive, ablative, and dative for English where such use is not
as clear (e.g., ablative, accusative, and nominative use the same form
or else use a preposition) would only serve to confuse, IMHO.  Such an 
approach would work, however, if you were teaching Esperanto to speakers 
of languages where nouns are clearly declined in that manner.  That is,
if you can tell a nominative, accusative, or ablative on sight in the
language in question.
	Well, that's just my feeling on it, I'm not a linguist.

-- 
Keith K. Higa                         Lewis & Clark College    
higa@lclark.edu                       Portland, OR, USA
In a hierarchy each member tends to rise to his/her level of incompetence.
                                 --The Peter Principle
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 17:08:30 GMT



In article 16550@lclark.edu, higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:>

>h^ is a guttural sound like the German "ch."  Your tongue is like "k" but
>you pass air through it.  The more your h^ sounds like an snore, the better.
>It is a rare sound in Esperanto, however.
>
>j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."

May we please have some example words.
From: etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U`
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:24:16 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

|> >h^ is a guttural sound like the German "ch."  Your tongue is like "k" but
|> >you pass air through it.  The more your h^ sounds like an snore, the better.
|> >It is a rare sound in Esperanto, however.
|> >
|> >j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."
|> 
|> May we please have some example words. 

You may! Here is a complete list of the roots in the "Baza Radikaro Oficiala"
containing one of those sounds:

	e^ho (echo)
	^hemio = kemio (chemistry)
	^horo (choir)
	me^haniko = mekaniko (mechanics)
	me^hanismo = mekanismo(mechanism)
	te^hniko = tekniko (technique; technology)

	-a^jo (denotes concrete ideas)
	de^jori (be on duty)
	^jaluza (jealous)
	^ja^udo (Thursday)
	^jeti (throw)
	^juri (swear an oath)
	^jurnalo (newspaper)
	^jus (just now, a moment ago)

Note that the letter ^H can be replaced with K in all but two of the words with
^H and that neither of the letters is very common. Most of the instances of ^J in
a normal text are due to the common ending "-a^jo".

The "Baza Radikaro Oficiala" contains about 2500 roots, I think.
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no (Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen)
Subject: Re: U`
Keywords: Kurdish
Organization: University of Trondheim, Norway
Distribution: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 11:39:17 GMT

I have received a letter from petermc@math.mit.edu commenting my article
<1992Nov9.182228.22884@ugle.unit.no> where I write that also the Kurdish
uses the ^j letter for the same sound as in Esperanto. He writes:

>The Kurdish language did not start to use the Latin alphabet until the Turks
>started to use it in the 1920s, long after Zamenhof devised Esperanto.

Well, I didn't expect Zamenhof to borrow the letter from this language :-)
But does anyone know if the Kurdish borrowed the letter from Esperanto? 

-- 
Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen            "Ili rigardis min kiel sian
jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no                moralan chefon."
                                                       (L.L. Zamenhof)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 19:32:58 GMT


In article 16718@dartvax.dartmouth.edu, J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:>

> .... I think I know how the letters c^, g^, h^, j^, and s^ are supposed to be
> pronounced, but what about u`? ....

I, in turn, would like to know about the h^ and the j^.  As for the others, is
it true that:
                   c^ in c^u is like ch in chew;
                   g^ in g^i is like g  in gym;
              and  s^ in s^i is like sh in she?

                                                         Thanks
           





Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
From: etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans)
Subject: Re: Ideas for New Postings
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:33:21 GMT

|> Perhaps those on the net who are fluent in Esperanto can post short
|> articles in Esperanto about stories in the newspaper, etc.

El tute malgrava loka studenta ^jurnalo:

Furiozaj kontra^unaziaj protestantoj strike gardis la kinejon de Christ-kolegio
je ^ja^udo pro la montrado de du propagandaj filmoj.

La Kontra^unazia Ligo starigis la manifestacion ekster la kinejo por protesti
kontra^u la filmklubo akuzita pri indiferenteco pri la uzo de fa^sisma propagando
kiel distra^jo. Sed Adam CLITHEROE, prezidanto de la Christ-kolegia filmklubo
defendis sian decidon montri la filmojn "Hitlerjunge Quex" kaj "Batal^sipo
Potemkin", kiuj allogis ^cirka^u 100 studentojn.

"Ni ne glorigas naziismon;" li diris; "ni montras la filmojn pure pro ilia arta
valoro."
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Subject: Re: U`
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:56:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.192914.16550@lclark.edu> higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:
>
>j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."
>

I am trying to learn a little Russian. I am at the alphabet!

I think that the j^ sound is like that of the Russian letter with
the six arms, like two K characters welded back to back.

Is this from where Zamenhof got the sound?
From: higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U`
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:24:14 GMT
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1992Nov6.205612.28827@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>In article 28786@lclark.edu, higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:>
>
>> .... The most common usage of u' is with "a", e.g. "hodiau'" (today) ....
>
>"Hodiau'" is a new word for me.  Would somebody please show how to use it
>with the sample sentences for "mang^i" or "ac^eti".  Specifically, is any
>of the following three forms correct:
>
>                 a)  Hodiau', mi ac^etis nau' pomojn;
>                 b)  Mi ac^etis nau' pomojn hodiau';
>                 c)  Mi ac^etis hodiau' nau' pomojn?

In fact, all of them are correct in that they mean the same thing.
"I bought nine apples today."  

>BTW, what are the Esperanto equivalents for "me", "you", "him", etc., as in:
>
>                 "Hodiau'" estas la nova vorto por .... ?

OK, this requires some explanation.
You probably know about the nominative and accusative cases (i.e. no "n"
on the end, or with "n" on the end).  Nouns and pronouns are declined in
this way.
So I=mi, me=min
   you (as subj.)=vi, you (as obj.)=vin
   he=li, him=lin
   she=s^i, her=s^in

The accusative case is used primarily for direct objects.  For example, "Mi
ac^etis nau' pomojn" the "n" at the end of "pomojn" signifies that "pomoj"
is the direct object.  There are other uses of the accusative form, but its
primary use is marking direct objects.

With regard to prepositions, however, you use the *nominative* case after a
preposition.  So "...por mi," *not* "...por min."

Sorry if that confused you, but I just wanted to make sure you knew some
differences in usage between Esperanto and English.  There are quite a bit.

--Keith

-- 
Keith K. Higa                         Lewis & Clark College    
higa@lclark.edu                       Portland, OR, USA
In a hierarchy each member tends to rise to his/her level of incompetence.
                                 --The Peter Principle
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U`
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:22:23 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

|> I think that the j^ sound is like that of the Russian letter with
|> the six arms, like two K characters welded back to back.
|> 
|> Is this from where Zamenhof got the sound?

I'm not sure precisely what this question means, however I suppose the answer is
no, because Esperanto words containing ^J are more frequently derived from the
French than from the Russian, and ^J is the way the letter J is pronounced in
French. Certainly the choice of the symbol ^J to denote the sound seems to show
French rather than Russian influence.

However the existence of the sound ^J in Russian may have influenced his decision
to include the sound in Esperanto...
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: More on Esperanto pronounciation
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:41:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.173103.4036@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>A few more questions about Esperanto pronounciation for those of you
>who are more linguistically inclined:
>
>1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
>English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
>Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
>variations on the letter r differ significantly?

Like the rolled "r", for instance the Spanish "r", but not the "rr".
On the other hand, just about any "r" will be understood, but the
French/German/Danish guttural sounds ugly.
>
>2. What about letters like p, t, and d?  In English, they're aspirated
>(although not as much as in a language like German), while in Russian
>they're not.  (By the way -- I've read that it's worse in Hindi -- in
>Hindi there are in many cases separate letters representing the
>aspirated and unaspirated consonants.)

Unaspirated, or only very little. Definitely not like the Indian aspirated
consonants. And not like the retroflex ones either!

>
>3. Is there any vowel reduction in Esperanto?  That is, can you end up
>with a vowel sound like the 'schwa' -- the a in 'about', the i in
>'pencil', the o in 'lemon', etc.?

Never. _That_ is a sin.


Pierre



Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
From: dsg@impmh.uucp (Dave Gordon)
Subject: Re: More on Esperanto pronounciation
Organization: Integrated Micro Products Ltd
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:52:32 GMT

In <1992Nov10.184135.4237@news.columbia.edu> pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.173103.4036@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>>A few more questions about Esperanto pronounciation for those of you
>>who are more linguistically inclined:
>>
>>1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
>>English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
>>Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
>>variations on the letter r differ significantly?
>
>Like the rolled "r", for instance the Spanish "r", but not the "rr".
>On the other hand, just about any "r" will be understood, but the
>French/German/Danish guttural sounds ugly.
>>
>>2. What about letters like p, t, and d?  In English, they're aspirated
>>(although not as much as in a language like German), while in Russian
>>they're not.  (By the way -- I've read that it's worse in Hindi -- in
>>Hindi there are in many cases separate letters representing the
>>aspirated and unaspirated consonants.)
>
>Unaspirated, or only very little. Definitely not like the Indian aspirated
>consonants. And not like the retroflex ones either!

One of the nice things about Esperanto is that the sounds are all
sharply differentiated, with none of the subtle differences found in
other languages (e.g. English bid/bed/bad/bawd/bored/board/bard/barred).

So the precise degree of trill on the 'r', or aspiration of 'p', etc.,
is not too important.  As long as the sounds remain identifiable,
you will still be understood - although people may say you're speaking
Esperanto with a French/German/English/Russian/etc accent.

Zamenhof recommended Italian as a model for the sounds of Esperanto,
especially the vowel sounds, so if you can't get to hear spoken
Esperanto, Italian may be a good next choice.

ObEsperanto:    La veter-prognozo por jau`do, la 12a de novembro

            La okcidenta au` nordokcidenta vento dau`re blovos super la
            Britaj Insuloj.  En Skotlando kay norda Anglujo estos tre
            malvarme.  En okcidento Anglujo kay Kimrujo estos sune, sed
            pluvetos de tempo al tempo.
-- 

===============================================================================
Dave | dsg@imp.co.uk | +44 753 516599 | "C^i tio ne estas .subskribo"
===============================================================================

Xref: sparky alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc:61 soc.culture.esperanto:2084
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Ideas for New Postings
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:05:00 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Recently, somebody included in a posting a weather report in Esperanto.
 I'm only a beginning Esperantist, but I was still able to understand
most of the weather forecast.  This gave me an idea.

Perhaps those on the net who are fluent in Esperanto can post short
articles in Esperanto about stories in the newspaper, etc.  They could
be about anything, although I tend to like humorous human-interest
stories myself.  For length, how about the length of one of the news
articles in the new "Week" section of Time (for those of you who read
Time magazine).  That is, four or five sentences.

For those of us learning Esperanto, it would be a good opportunity to
get some practice with not-too-difficult (I hope!) readings about a
wide variety of topics.  For those who are fluent in Esperanto, it
might provide a springboard for discussion in Esperanto of topics other
than Esperanto itself.  After all, isn't that the purpose of Esperanto?

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
C^U ESTAS BELA LINGVO?  JES -- ESPERANTO!
From: duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk (Duncan C Thomson)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U`
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:05:46 GMT
Organization: SPD, Strathclyde University, Glasgow, Scotland
Originator: duncan@ossian

In alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc, esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.192914.16550@lclark.edu> higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:
>>
>>j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."
>
>I am trying to learn a little Russian. I am at the alphabet!
>
>I think that the j^ sound is like that of the Russian letter with
>the six arms, like two K characters welded back to back.
>
>Is this from where Zamenhof got the sound?

Well, it occurs in English more then just in "measure" and a lot in French
(joli, je, Georges, Jacques), in Catalan (Jordi, jo), Hungarian, Czech...
in fact probably in the majority of European languages.  So Zamenhof could
have taken it from lots of places, and probably did...

Incidentally, I've got to agree with a previous poster about the *best*
way to improve your Esperanto on Internet - by using Internet Relay Chat
(IRC).  There's probably a FAQ in alt.irc which can answer all your
questions... basically it's a combination between Usenet and the `talk' or
`phone' utilities.

	-Duncan

-- 
Duncan C THOMSON                            |  .__ _.._ .__._  _ , .___ _
         <duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk> |  |_ |_ |_||_ |_|/_\|\| | / \
SPD, Dept of EEE, University of Strathclyde |  |__._||  |__| \| || | | \_/
204 George Street, Glasgow G1 1XW, UK       | esperanto - lingvo internacia
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:55:42 GMT



In article 640@infodev.cam.ac.uk, etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) 
writes:>


>.... Here is a complete list of the roots in the "Baza Radikaro Oficiala"
>containing one of those sounds:
>
>	e^ho (echo)
>	^hemio = kemio (chemistry)
>	^horo (choir)
>	me^haniko = mekaniko (mechanics)
>	me^hanismo = mekanismo(mechanism)
>	te^hniko = tekniko (technique; technology)
>
>	-a^jo (denotes concrete ideas)
>	de^jori (be on duty)
>	^jaluza (jealous)
>	^ja^udo (Thursday)
>	^jeti (throw)
>	^juri (swear an oath)
>	^jurnalo (newspaper)
>	^jus (just now, a moment ago)
>
>.... Most of the instances of ^J in a normal text are due to the common
>ending "-a^jo"....

Splendid!  Now, how about some sample sentences to illustrate the usage
of these words, and of the ending "-a^jo", in particular?



                                                   Many thanks,

                                                      Krys



Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: VORTO: mang^i  to eat
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 17:05:13 GMT

 

In article 4FJ@cck.coventry.ac.uk, esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:>


> .... I have been trying to learn esperanto, on and off, for many years.
>I have learned a little, but never really stuck at it.
>I feel that learning enough vocabulary to be able to actually read
>something written in soc.culture.esperanto straight off without a
>dictionary is a major task.
>
>I wonder if many other readers are in a similar position.

I sure am.


> .... I therefore suggest a self-help mutual learning process, as follows.
>On a continuing basis, interested persons choose a word, maybe a
>fairly common word such as mang^i, as here, or some less common
>noun, verb or adjective that one has come across, or one of the
>prepositions or whatever and produce several sentences, some translated
>into English, but not involving other words except well known words
>such as apple and so on, so that the word being discussed is possibly
>the only new word for many readers.
>
>Re: follow ups with discussion are encouraged, and people can vary the
>format to suit their own needs.

An excellent idea.


> .... To start off:
>
>
>mang^i is the verb "to eat".

Does an infinitive always end with an "i"?


> .... Mi mang^as pomon.
>
>I eat an apple.

Would it be correct to say "Ili mang^as pomon" for "They eat an apple"?


> .... S^i mang^is kvar pomojn.
>
>She ate four apples.

Again, would it be correct to say "Ili mang^is kvar pomojn"?


> .... C^u vi mang^os du pomojn?
>
>Will you eat two apples?

And how about "C^u ili mang^os du pomojn"?

Is "vi" singular, or plural?  What is the other?


> .... I feel that if we could get this going in soc.culture.esperanto with
>reposts arranged in alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc so that there is a
>steady stream, then ten minutes at about tea break, most days, would,
>after a while, produce good effects.

Agree.







Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no (Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen)
Subject: Re: VORTO: mang^i  to eat
Organization: University of Trondheim, Norway
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 14:43:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.181617.24989@lclark.edu> higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.170513.13130@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>>Is "vi" singular, or plural?  What is the other?
>
>Both...you can use "vi" as you would use "you" in English; to one person  or
>to a group.

There is, however, also a pronoun for *singular*: "ci". "Ci" is considered
to be archaic ("thou"), and we very rarely see or hear it. Usually "vi" is
used both for singular and plural. Some young people think that we should
begin using "ci" in the singular again.

Ekzistas, tamen, ankau pronomo por *singularo*: "ci". "Ci" estas
konsiderata arhhaika, kaj ni tre malofte vidas au audas ghin. Kutime "vi"
estas uzata kaj por singularo kaj por pluralo. Kelkaj junaj homoj opinias,
ke ni devus reekuzi "ci" singulare.

-- 
Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen            "Ili rigardis min kiel sian
jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no                moralan chefon."
                                                       (L.L. Zamenhof)
Xref: sparky alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc:59 soc.culture.esperanto:2080