From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: A CHALLENGE TO THE OPPONENTS OF CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:18:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: coe.1992Aug31.221855.26000
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717



VaNakkam,

Here is a summary of my arguments regarding caste based reservations. This 
includes my articles in ACT and SCT[posted earlier] and my e-mail correspondence
with some of the nettors[with many deletions which were due to their deviant
nature]. Read them and my footnote before you decide to flame me.

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The topic of reservation is an issue which can never be solved to the satisfacti
-on of everyone. Nevertheless let me voice my opinion about the reservations 
based on my experiences over the years.

Time and again the issue of reservation has stirred passions among the people
and no wonder the politicians are using this as a weapon. If educated people
themselves "react" rather than "think" I wonder how the illiterate masses will
behave in such issues.

For appreciating reservations one needs to study the past clearly. In the past  
education was not as important for financial success as it is now. Those were 
the days when very few went to school and out of them a few pursued professional
degrees. But when times changed and education was percieved as a path to financi
-al goals more and more people wanted to educate their sons and daughters. But 
the brahmins who had the early lead in education knew the potential and began 
educating their children aggressively. By "aggressive" I mean the zeal with 
which they educated their children.

Given the backdrop of our caste based society, brahmins who were ahead in the
field of education soon progressed very fast. And the other caste people who
[eventhough some of them were reasonably rich] had not pursued education earlier
were at a disadvantage. The brahmins who got educated and landed up in good jobs
saw to that more and more people from their caste got educated and absorbed in
the work force[which was becoming mostly brahmin]. Given the human nature
and our caste based society where people "lived" separately this caste bias 
is quite understandable. And I don't think any other caste people would have
behaved any differently in the same situation.

At this point I would like to make myself more clearer. When backward caste 
people talk about centuries of injustice done to them, I can't agree with them.
Because if we are talking about 100 or 200 years ago then there was no real 
emphasis on education. And I mean professional education and not literature.
There was no need to have a degree in Accounting/Law/Medicine/Engg./Commerce
etc. to progress in the society. If a weaver made good clothes and had the basic
intelligence to sell them profitably then that was it. No need for a degree in
Textile technology to weave and a degree in Business to sell. Same was the case
with other professions as well. So during those times it was not necessary to
study to prosper. And so I would say the "injustice" can be traced to recent
times after the industrial revolution. Also I would say the brahmins just seized
the oppurtunity and got financial prosperity. It was not as how the politicians
portray them as being rich and powerful for centuries.

But in the era of industrialisation and commercialisation one needed to be 
properly educated for financial and hence societal success. And the caste based
reservations were brought to even out the field. And I am sure this was a better
idea than economic criteria because, the aim of educating/encouraging education
all caste people is best served this way. Because the reservations were not to
eradicate poverty but to break the monopoly of a section of people on education
and hence the work force. Also it would have been mighty difficult and it still
is, to enforce economic criteria for reservations. If we go by the income level
then it would mean the poorest gets the most number of seats and so on. And it
would not have solved the problem of caste based imbalance in education. Also
easily powerful people could easily prove they are "poor" since there is no fool
proof way of verification of income in India. I would also like to point out to
the people screaming for economic criteria that they would not qualify for seats
in colleges if admission is based on family income. Because most of these people
are from the middle class and given the population figures of the people below
them I don't think they would be in any better position than they are right now.

The most apalling thing in the whole reservation issue is the hypocrisy of the
backward caste people when it comes to reservation for the SC/ST. Because these
people who were in the very bottom of the society[the real "centuries" of opress
-ed people] are the ones who need reservations more than any body else. Yet the
backward caste people time and again critisize the reservations for SC/ST's. And
the reaction of FCs towards the SC/ST's is no different. These people[both
BC and FC] can never digest the fact that SC/ST's can get into a particular
college with considerably lesser marks. And they conveniently forget how these
people were and still are oppressed in the society. 

One common tactics of the upper caste people is to point out one or two SC/STs
who are rich and argue how their reservation is unjust. But to my knowledge and
my experience in college I found most of the SC/STs are poor and still education
-ally backward. Most of them come from families where there are no educated
people. This particular scenario is true for many BCs also. Most of them come
from illiterate background and surely would not have made it to good colleges if
not for the reservations. And once again I would like to stress the fact that
economic well being is not a factor like most people argue. Because there are 
rich and poor in all castes[in case of SC/STs most of them are poor] and the 
economic criteria would not have achieved what the caste based reservations 
achieved.Only because of caste based reservations we now have a balanced society
Other wise brahmins would be studying science and technology, chettiars would be
lending money and kaikolars would be weaving and so on. One other argument is
that the general standard of education has gone down because of reservations.
On the contrary the gap between the classes[FCs and BCs, BCs and SC/STs] has 
narrowed considerably over the years[ref: cut off marks for admission].

Well, the reservations have achieved to an extent the integration of society
and personally I would want them to continue for ten more years. Only then our
society will be balanced. But then one may ask if reservations are not aimed at
eradicating poverty[as I have all along argued] then what about the poor ? what 
needs to be done ? The government has to do more than just talk talk talk about
eradicating poverty. The poor have remained poor if not poorer all these years
mainly because everything in our country is corrupt. The probability of a man/
woman achieving something without the influence of money is very low. Also our
growing population is the main culprit in the case of poverty. If population
grows this fast how the hell will the government be able to look after the 
people ? Our villages need more attention. The perception of village being
backward and city being forward should go.And the government has to do something
to stop the flow of people from villages to cities. And it should also do all it
can to persuade more and more educated people to serve in the villages. And 
primary education should be made available to every body.

More importantly WE the people have to overcome our selfish outlooks and come 
out to help our nation overcome poverty.The people who ardently cry for economic
criteria for reservations will be the the first to runaway from working for the
poor. In summary I would say that people need to think without bias before 
fighting on something. As a tamil saying goes:"Manja kaamalai noi kondavanukku
paakkirathellam manjaLaa theriyumaam". So if we still remain in a small world
thinking selfishly and sterio-typing people then nothing will go right. And it
is a pity we don't have unselfish, broad minded politicians anymore in TN and
for that matter in the whole of India. 

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In article <l8tl3tINN14m@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu> raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes:
>
>I am quite concerned about the nature of the present day reservation
>system for admission to colleges in Tamil Nadu, and in particular, am
>concerned about the quality of the graduates.  I fear that if the present
>system continues, with more regard for one's class than one's academic
>merit, then the quality of professionals such as doctors and engineers
>will drop dramitically over the next ten or twenty years as the 
>professionals who qualified through merit retire and those who gained
>degress through bribery or through quotas become the majority of employed
>prefessionals.

I disagree with this observation. One instance I can show you regarding this is
"The cut-off marks for the backward classes has been increasing and in the
recent years the open competition cut-off and BC cut-off is separated by two
marks or so. The trend is the same with the scheduled caste also."

So I conclude that the "academic gap" between the FC, BC and SC/ST is decreasing
and the standard of the people entering the professional collleges is in no way
going down. All we have is more and more BCs and SC/STs giving more competition
The very fact how the cut-off marks converge proves that reservations have had
a positive effect on the BCs and SC/STs. While it is true that some qualified 
people from FC may be at a disadvantage but overall the standard is not going 
down.


						It is true that "always SOME 
academically qualified persons are not able to pursue higher degress" but it
is not "more academically qualified persons". It is possible with the 
reservations policy that one Mr. X with more marks from FC may fail to get a 
seat in a particular college whereas Mr. Y with lesser marks may do so. But 
this is not proof that qualified people do not get seats. I will try to explain:
BC people do not get seats just becuase they are BC. They get seats becuase they
have good marks. But the competition itself is not open to all and they compete
against BCs. This system may be critisized if BCs with far lower marks get seats
while FCs don't. But as I have pointed out earlier the gap is not much and the 
gap may soon be gone. 

>Further, I conjecture that the marks required
>  of the backward classes for admission to colleges and jobs later on
>  are low enough (40%?) to extinguish any motivation to work hard and really
>  learn (i.e., why work when the govt. promises you a free ride?).

Yeah conjecture right. But wrong. Anything less than 90% and the chance that a
BC will get a seat in a reputed college is very remote.So your other observation
that it will extinguish motivation is not true.

>Hypothesis and followup question:
>
>  It is my belief, that the present quota systems are counterproductive
>  for the prosperity of the state.  While small percentages, or special
>  financial support for backward groups (as in the US), may be acceptable,
>  the percentages in TN seem to be high enough to weed out a significant
>  number of highly motivated and academically qualified individuals in
>  favor of less qualified and less motivated individuals.

In the light of my observations I conclude the reservations are NOT counter
productive and highly motivated and academically qualified individuals are NOT
favoured over less qualified and less motivated individuals. But I think the
percentages need to be reviewed and corrected.

>
>  In the worst case, the result will be dramatic reduction in the quality
>  of professional services as the merit-based professionals of the previous 
>  generation retire and as the quota and bribe based professionals become
>  the majority.  This applies both to academicians as well as professionals
>  in the field (doctors, engineers, etc.).

It has not happened and it will not happen. But I am opposed to "buying" seats
by rich people and powerful people "securing" seats with malpactice.

>
>  This is a scary thought.  Thinking strictly about academic merit, I would
>  be quite wary if a doctor attending to me in a hospital in Madras 
>  belonged to the "backward" group... It would be quite difficult to 
>  distinguish those who "earned" their degree from those who got a 
>  "free ride", especially if I did not know anything about medicine.

The same thing applies to a FC doctor with whom you will be concerned because
you wouldn't know if he/she deservedly earned his/her degree or if he/she
bought it or got it by influence.[This is just an instance to show that it is
quite possible for a FC to get a degree through power and money].

>  I invite comments, facts, and figures to either support my hypothesis,
>  or to calm my fears.

You have got them now. So calm your fears but don't suppress your doubts.

>
>  Also, for those who support the quota systems:  how would you feel
>  about being operated on by a "quota" doctor (when you do not have access
>  to the doctor's marks sheet), or about having the wiring in your house
>  being designed by an "quota" engineer?  

All I would worry about is the end result: IS HE/SHE CAPABLE OF DOING IT ?
As everybody knows all who get good marks are not good when it comes to practice

>Before I get flames in return,
>  I will add that it is my hypothesis that only a small minority of those
>  who get in via the quota systems will be down-trodden, hard-working,
>  want-to-come-up-in-life persons.  I believe a majority of the students
>  will be in for the free ride.  The key word is hard-working.

Nope. Not true. 

>- raman rajagopalan

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In article <l908k1INNcvu@aludra.usc.edu> rammohan@aludra.usc.edu (Karthikeyan Rammohan) writes:

>Please remember that i have lived 17 difficult years
>in Madras ruled by people who use the names of Anna, periyar to
>justify there actions, and there are 2 million fools who beleive them
>and continue to quote them forever.No wonder TN has people who commit
>suicides on silly incidents.

Did you know about the highly civilised American people who still believe that
Elvis lives ? And do you know how many Americans follow religious imposters
who give magnificient speeches with emotion(I finally saw some people in USA 
who could act as well as our politicians). 

TAMBRAS(Tamilnadu Brahmin Assn.) asks people to vote for ADMK in every election.
What do you think about that ? And brahmins vote for ADMK regardless of the 
candidate. Why is this happening ? Does MGR being a brahmin or Jayalaitha being
a brahmin play any part in the logic ? If not then what is the logic in voting
for ADMK which is as good or as bad as DMK.

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In article <1992Aug18.193607.4673@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> raghu@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Raghu B) writes:
>In <Bt6x0K.Cpw@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> crathina@ritchie.uwaterloo.ca (C Rathinavelu) writes:
>
>>                 If the admission is based on merit system then I am pretty 
>>sure that only and only city people (Madras,Coimbatore,Trichy,Madurai etc. 
>>they have more/most/enough facilities in education industry) will enjoy this
>>partial system. One should also give some oppotunity to village and labour
>>class people to come up in their life. 
>
>  what do you mean by that the city people have more facilities. We are
>all reading the same book and taking the same test. i can understand
>that the teaching facilites may not be good in schools in villages when
	  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>compared to schools in cities. 

There you go. You yourself pointed it out.

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In soc.culture.tamil article <1992Aug20.180743.25801@coe.montana.edu> you wrote:
> In article <1992Aug18.130729.15534@utagraph.uta.edu> muthu@mecad.uta.edu (S.N.
Muthukrishnan) writes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Why reprimand a generation? Is it not a facist policy? Educated but tendencies of
>barabarism still remain, eh! Is eye for an eye the way to go? Can we not correct the 
>mishappenings? Why should the good be pushed down to bring up the weak? There are two 
>ways to rise up the ladder. One is to climb up. The other is to pull the other fellow 
>down. Which will you recommend? What is happening in TN?
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One person has had a head start and he is far ahead. The other is now
at a disadvantage. So the first person is asked to wait till the other person
catches up with him. This is how I view the reservations. And I think still
the second person has not caught up with the first person. The moment he catches
up I think both should compete without any help.

>>Sorry pal you are wrong. There are more and more socially backward people in TN
>> who believe in themselves than there were before.

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>Then why still the reservation with such huge percentages?I know lots of poor FC
>families who do not have any body who is a graduate in their family. Why should'nt 
>they be given the oppurtunity.
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Because still there are millions who need reservations. I also know lot of BC
families who do not have anybody who is a graduate and are poor. So ?
What we need is a broad outlook of how much relatively the communities need or
donot need reservations and such isolated useless arguments.

>>You are mixing politics with reservation. Mal administration is not an issue in
>>this ongoing discussion. And by the way will any other party(like the Congress)
>>do away with the reservations ? I can bet my fortune they won't.

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>That is precisely what I am saying. People have to learn not to elect these so 
>called 'reforminsts'. Why are Tamilians so stupid to elect actors and actress?
>>I know i am mixing politics. But that is the fatc. Education system is messed 
>up due to politics.
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Why are Tamilians so stupid to elect actors and actresses ? - Because others
with the qualifications shy out of politics. Simply put, they lack the guts to
enter politics and oppose such actors and actresses. And I agree with you that
education is messed up due to politics. 

>>2) I don't say reservation should not have been made as the alternative to get
>>rid of the ills of the past, but is'nt there a way to do it.

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>Provide incentives to study. Give them substantial scholarship. Give them oppurtunities
>to start industries. Give them special training if needed. Tell you what I know well 
>educated rich people use reservation just because their son/daughter is dumb enough 
>not to study. You see such people still get away with it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice ideas. But think about the magnitude of the problem. We are talking about
over 80% of the population. And yes I agree that rich and powerful people use
reservation just because their son/daughter is dumb enough not to study. But
reservations or no reservations we can't stop them.

>> 2. 65% in what ? (refer to above) And are you kidding ? BC with 65% entering
>> Govt. colleges ? And why do you club BCs with SCs knowing pretty well the
>> cuttoffs and reservation percentages are different ?
>> 
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>When did you graduate with your bachelor's? May be you were not aware of times it
>used to happen. But I am darn sure that there are rich folks who get into profess.
>colleges with the aid of money. Do you give a minute to think about the poor FC guy?
>Why are people so antagonistic to even discussing the difficulties of the FC?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I graduated last year. Yes I may not be aware of times it used to happen. And
yes I am also darn sure that rich folks get into professional collges with the
aid of money. So ?

And yes I think about FC students' plight. I realised their problems fully
when I passed high school and found many of my friends unable to get into
good colleges. I come from Mylapore which is a predominantly brahmin area and
so most of my friends were brahmins. When I got admission into a good college
and they failed to do so, I felt so bad. It was then I began wondering why the
hell we had this reservation business. I began asking myself whether I was right
in using the reservation system. My parents would say that was right because I
was the first in my family to get a college education. Maybe they are right. But
I could have got a seat in a different college in the same department or a seat
in the same college in a different department with my marks. So why did I use
the reservation at all ? Till this date I have mixed feelings about this.

After I joined college this question of reservations always came up to my mind.
Only then I slowly realised the importance of reservations. Scores of BC and
SC/ST students(sons and daughters of farmers,road cleaners, coolies, weavers
etc.) would never have made it to my college if not for the reservations. I 
found them to be fully eligible for reservation unlike my case. Also I began to
look beyond the limits of Madras, Madurai, Coimbatore and other cities. People 
came from obscure villages and towns. They all fully deserve this reservations.
I also came across rich BCs and very few rich SC/STs. But I came across rich
FCs also. And I slowly realised that rich/poor argument doesn't hold good when
talking about reservations. Time and again some rich and powerful BC/SC/ST
people use reservations. But that doesn't convince me that the vast majority of
eligible BC/SC/STs should suffer.

But I think the OC percentage should be increased based on how the OC field 
looks like(% of FCs/BCs/SCs/STs). And based on current trends I think the OC
field should be gradually increased as the academic gap changes. The obstacles
to that are selfish people in the BC/SC/ST castes who would like to use the
reservations again and again and our beloved politicians who wouldn't want to
anger such people.


>> 3. Rich/Poor & FC/BC mmmm. Isn't that an isolated instance ? 

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>NO. It is not. I know that atleast 60% of the students in my class were stinkingly
>rich. Most of them came thro' reservation. 
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In my class it was the opposite. 

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>Why don't those who enjoyed and are well off today give it up? Compete fairly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you in this regard.

> >Are they afraid? Do they think they are incapable of qualifying  
> >without reservation? 
> 
> No.

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Unsubstantiated claim.
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I'll tell you what, if they use reservations it is because they are selfish
not because they are incapable of qualifying.And it would take a bold politician
to come and say,"Ok guys. You have got your due. Why don't you allow others ?"

>>today backing off from their duty. Shedding their responsibilities they are all  
>>out to ensure that the caste based reservation will exist for generations to 
>>come.

>Gross generalisation. But I accept many just want the reservations to continue
> because of selfish interests. It is because of such selfish irrational people
> that genuine arguments are also thrown to the dust bin by ati-reservation 
> people.

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You bet! Show me one who truthfully acknowledges the ills of reservation. I am yet to
meet one.
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You have one such person in me. I acknowledge that reservations are not perfect
and do provide loop holes for people to manipulate.

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So, that was the summary nettors. All along I had expressed my views and in 
return very few people who opposed reservations challenged my views. And the 
few who responded argued one or two points in my views neglecting others(they
never agreed or disagreed) would then stop discussing when I replied them. So
I concluded that my views are accepted.

Put in a nutshell here are my points:

1. The introduction of caste based reservations are justified.
2. Their continuance is also justified.
3. The percentages need to be reviewed and OC(Open Competition) needs to be 
   widened.

So here is the challenge guys. Read my views fully and if you accept them fine,
it is upto you to decide what to do. If you disagree then please RESPOND in the
net(I am tired of this e-mail business) explaining where you agree and where you
disagree and why.


Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian