From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:37:17 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan5.131558.26580@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
|> In article <1i2tnfINN8rh@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> >In article <1993Jan1.191432.13862@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
|> >|> In article <1humf2INNniq@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s17.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >- Hitler was Roman Catholic.
|> >|> 
|> >|> His regime and his government, however, were not founded on
|> >|> Christian values.  That is the point that was being made (although
|> >|> I agree that Hitler's "religion" can cloud the issue).  I don't
|> >|> know of any Christian denomination at the time of Hitler that
|> >|> espoused the killing of non-Christians as even remotely following
|> >|> Christ.  I won't even mention the superiority of one race over
|> >|> another, etc. 
|> >
|> >This is highly misleading.   In reality, most of the mainstream 
|> >denominations in Germany expressed support for Hitler and for his 
|> >regime at some time or other.
|> 
|> I disagree.  The point I was making is that Hitler and his regime did
|> not use Christian or Christ-like values when they devised their Nazi
|> state.  Nothing you have said has changed this.

Well, that takes us back to the original question.   If it's so 
obvious that Hitler didn't use christian values, why did the Churches
support him?

Hitler said on many occasions that he believed he was carrying out 
"The Lord's work" in his program.   The church was in a position to 
contradict him when he said that, but what did they do instead?    
Well, the catholic Youth Organization proclaimed Naziism as a great 
spiritual breakthorugh, and other Catholic and Protestant Bishops 
expressed their support for the Nazis, so what was an ordinary 
Christian to conclude?    

What is a Church for, if not to provide guidance to its members?



|> Your quoting single line statements from documents, is IMHO
|> potentially very misleading.

There are *dozens* of quotations from Church leaders expressing
support of the Nazis and of Hitler in particular.   No-one has to
depend on selective quotation.

But don't take my word for it.    Read a history of the time.   Even
a cheap softcover history like Shirer's covers this kind of thing
fairly well.

|> 
|> Churches, by their nature tend to be nationalistic and supportive
|> of their governemnt.  This is human nature.  

This rationalization comes up over and over: "The Churches were only
human".

But that's what we are saying.   The Churches behaved like ordinary
human institutions, just as they have for the last two thousand
years.   Ordinary, greedy, exploitative, opportunist humans.   As
long as Hitler looked like winning, they were all for him, and if that
meant the death of few Jews, so what.    Once he looked like a loser,
they discovered that he had been a monster all along.

Now is that what we want from Churches?   Is this where we are
supposed to get moral guidance?

jon.