From: poser@vxcrna.cern.ch (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MEQ #23: Mufti meets Fuehrer (first in Berlin, now in the Hell!)
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:42:03 GMT
Reply-To: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA

In article <FmycuB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de>, 
tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
|>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|>
|>> 
|>>       MEQ #23.  Der Fuehrer und der Grossmufti.
|>       
|>     [deleted lines]
|>   
|>>    The Fuehrer then made the following declaration, requesting
|>>    the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:
|> 
|>     [deleted lines] 
|> 
|>>    3) As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Fuehrer would
|>>       offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour
|>>       of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only
|>>       remaining objective in the region would be limited to the
|>>       annihilation of the Jews [*] living under British
|>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
|>>       protection in Arab lands...
|>> 
|>>    [Excerpts from a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin
|>>    Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, on 28 November 1941.
|>>    The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, a translator
|>>    in the Foreign Minister's Secretariat.]
|>> 
|>>    Source:
|>>      geheime Reichssache 57 a/41, quoted in G. Fleming, Hitler and
|>>      the Final Solution (Univ of California Press, 1984) 101-104.
|>> 
|>>    [*] "Vernichtung des ...Judentums" in the German original.
|>>    [Akten zur D. Aus. Pol. 1918-1945, Ser. D, XIII/2, p718]
|>>    This phrase can reasonably be translated "annihilation of the
|>>    Jews" as here, but weaker interpretations are possible.
|>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>>    A query on soc.culture.german failed to resolve this issue
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
|>>    despite more than 30 responses, ranging from "annihilation
|>>    of the Jews is the only possible translation" to "a dramatic
|>>    way to promise elimination of the Jewish national home".
|>>    What the Mufti considered he had been promised is uncertain,
|>>    as the only other record of the conversation, the Mufti's
|>>    diary, says merely "annihilate the power that brings the Jews",
|>>    maybe meaning Britain. [J. Peters, From Time Immemorial, p438]
|>>    The strongest known promise ever made to the Mufti in writing
|>>    was "abolition of the Jewish national home".
|>> 
|>>    Acknowledgement: Apart from the note, this MEQ was prepared by
|>>       Danny Keren.  The note was written by the editor.
|>
|>    Only a blunt antisemite and/or a nazi would have the guts to 
|>    put such a theory on the net. "Vernichtung des ... Judentums"
|>    was not only meant by Hitler: at that time (November 1941)
|>    the SS and SD troops stationed in the eastern occupied territories
|>    (like Poland, etc.) were fully doeing their "job" by liquidating
|>    Jews and other members of "minderwertige Rassen"(inferior races),
|>    short before the Wansee-Conference (January 20.1942).

Manfredo, before You go overboard here, the original text presented to
s.c.german was the following:

    Das deutsche Ziel w\"urde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des
    im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht
    lebenden Judentums sein.

As You see, this is in German and the request was to translate that into
English. The circumstantial information about who said what at what time
was purposefully withheld in the original question. There were two 
translations/interpretations which were included in the original question:

(a) Germany's only objective would then be solely the destruction
    of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the
    protection of British power.
(b) Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region
    would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under
    British protection in Arab lands.

A summary of all interpretations can be read in s.c.german:

Subject: SUMMARY: Translation Help.
Date: 16 Nov 1992 08:30:44 GMT
Organization: Australian National University

Since the original text was German, You can be very sure that there was very
little misundestanding about the word "Vernichtung" and also very little 
inclination to gloss over it.

|>    If the "query on soc.culture.german failed to resolve this issue"
|>    as "professor" Brendan MacKay (from the same school as the
|>    "historian" David Irving) states, it might be because Mr.McKay wanted to
|>    interprete it like that (like a failure). The other possibillity
|>    could be the following reason: many Germans will try to belittle
|>    the word "Vernichtung" because of shame over their own history or
|>    because they want to minimize it.

A couple of caveats:

1) I would be utterly surprised if Danny Keren would lend himself to 
   revisionist propagandising. Please be careful at whom You are sniping.

2) Though I submitted no translation myself, I read the whole thread 
   carefully. I have encountered _no_ attempt at belittlement. There
   were arguments  what scope the stated intention has, and how it
   fits into the time.

3) I suggest reading up on the s.c.G threat Yourself, to have a proper
   perspective on what went down there. It might also serve as a prophylactic
   against sweeping insinuations.

|>  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
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