HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:20:59 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Eilidh Swan asked about the surname "Swan" and about swans in armory.

In English, the surname "Swan" sometiems derives from the Anglo-
Scandinavian name "Swein", derived from Danish "Sveinn".  In medieval
England (and in most of western Europe) it was quite common for a family to
choose a charge whose name was similar to their family name - a swan for
Swan, a lion for Lyons, an ox for Oxford.  This practice is called
"canting," as several people have noted.  (I would like to point out that
the evidence seems to indicate that in Sweden, the practice worked the
other way around: Noble families adopted armory before they adopted
inherited surnames, and many of them took their names from the arms!)  

As far as I know, there is no particular meaning associated with the swan
in armory.  You might check medieval beastiaries for the virtues ascribed
to the swan.  Most of the "meanings" given to various charges in armory
were invented by heraldists of the 18th and 19th centuries.  One can find
some of that practice in earlier authors, but it only became fashionable at
that point.  If you are using the surname "Swan" in the SCA, it is
perfectly proper (and very authentic) to adopt the charge for no other
reason than the cant.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com) J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center,
PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: rbv@cypress.com
Subject: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor, San Jose, CA, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:46:35 GMT

genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) said:

Thus spake rbv@cypress.com:
	>1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased
	>2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules

	This is only one blazon; the "1" and "2" are there as a sort of
	punctuation to help you keep clear such facts as that the fleur-de-lis
	is on the fess.  (In snooty circles, blazons are not punctuated, which
	can make it a bit of a trick to parse them successfully.)

	What color are the griffins' heads supposed to be?  For that matter,
	what color is the fess supposed to be?  Hint: it has to be either
	"argent" (silver) or "or" (gold), since you're not allowed to put
	anything but a metal on a blue (or red or green or any other nonmetal)
	field.

In my ignorance I parsed the word "or" in the original description as a
conjunction.  This answers your question about the griffins.  Here is the
description verbatim:

	Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased or, a
	fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules.

Thanks for your help.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: reeves@yauw.aosg.gsf.dec.com (jon reeves)
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Reply-To: reeves@decvax.dec.com
Organization: AOSG
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:37:53 GMT

Any description of tinctures is incomplete if it doesn't include "PROPER";
I leave it to the experts to elucidate the color/metal rules for that.  It might
also be a good idea to list the "proper" colors for some common charges.
-- 
Jon Reeves	Digital Equipment Corporation, Alpha Open Systems Group
		5 Wentworth Drive, MS GSF1-1K13, Hudson NH 03051-4929 USA
+1 603 884 5859	reeves@aosg.gsf.dec.com		FAX: +1 603 884 1685
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: keradwc@news.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Connery)
Subject: Heraldry to English (was: Re: Translate)
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:54:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.011130.28756@news.mentorg.com> drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel) writes:
>
>Hmm.  Anybody considered writing a "heraldry to english" translation program--
>something that would take the preceding and produce "a black boat with red
>sails on a yellow background) (or whatever).  The next stage would be GIF
>output.
>
>Looks pretty messy.
>

I've heard of two masters theses based on such translators and one Ph.D.; in
all cases the project was not taken to conclusion.

Consider: Blazon is pretty much the same as a tailored set of PostScript, with
a lot of variants. (Of the field, of the first, tinctures not listed for each
set of charge(s) but put into the stack at the end, etc.) It's not an impossibleproject, but it IS a very time-consuming one.

--kdc
  kconnery@isi.com

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: davidr@mentorg.com (David Ransier)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: engr
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:51:21 GMT

In article <BuBCr7.41H@apollo.hp.com> betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:
>The simple answer is that family crests (coats of arms, properly; the
>crest is the little helmet + ornaments that goes *above* the coat of
>arms) aren't tied to surnames: they are tied to lines of descent.   So
>having Perry for a surname doesn't entitle you to display "the Perry
>family coat of arms", any more than having the Kennedy surname means
>that you're related to the ruling family of Massachusetts.   You need
>to prove that you're descended in the male line* from the particular
>Perry who was awarded that particular coat of arms.  For common names
>like Perry, there may in fact be several different coats associated
>with different branches of the family.  

This is great! (If you can't tell I'm a newbie to heraldry) I have been doing
a little family history research and have had a casual interest in heraldry.
My opinion of heraldry is that what ever someone shows you is not necessarily
your coat of arms.  In fact, it's most likely not your coat of arms.  
Your explanation is the first description that says
it really may be possible to identify a real coat of arms, given you meet the
requirements.

Thanks for that explanation.  Now for a couple of questions.

All the heraldry books I seen, or books that the heraldry research "folks"
have used that I have seen, index coats of arms by surnames and regions.
I haven't seen anything that refers to a specific ancestor.  How do I get
a list of referenced ancestors that I can check against my family history
for ancestral connections?

It is really not a big deal to me to make sure that "my crest" is the real
one.  Even if I found the "real one" there is enough room for error that
it would be very difficult to prove beyond any doubts.  However, I have
always thought it would be cool to have a stamp, like a notary uses, to
impress my name with a "possibly" relevant graphic (the coat of arms) 
on the first page of any books in my library.  It would look a lot better
than the handwritten names that most people use and the crest would add
a little class.

I've resisted committing an undtermined amount of money to this question,
but your explanation intrigues me enough that I'd be interested in persuing
it a little more.

Thanks.

David Ransier    davidr@pdx.mentorg.com

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: ssample1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Stephen and Roo)
Subject: partitioned achievements
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:45:10 GMT

As I recall, you can use family crests which are not your own (but which
were your direct ancestors') by successive partitioning of the field with
increasingly remote ancestors' devices on smaller and smaller segments.
Your own device (you must have one) goes in the upper right quarter I
believe.
Is this current practice?
Is my memory totally trashed?


Stephen and Roo Sample
ssample1@cc.swarthmore.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford)
Subject: Question about a charge
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:29:38 GMT


	How common is a squirrel as an heraldic charge? In what poses
would it be sufficiently different from other charges?

	I'm asking this from the point of view of an SCA member
interested in registering a device...


--
An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do.
                                                       -Dylan Thomas

Robert Crawford 			betel@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar
Keywords: White Cross International 
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:38:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.171344.10818@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Tero Juhani Heikkinen writes:
>
>> The Counts of Savoy bore Gules a cross argent. (A white cross on a red
>> field)  The House of Savoy later became Kings of Italy, with these same
>> arms. 
>> 
>> Incidentally, these same arms are borne by the City of Wien(Vienna),
>> Austria, and the City of Tallinn, Estonia. This is also the flag of
>> Denmark. The Knights of Malta have also used this as a flag.
>
>> Btw, isn't Switzerland Gules a cross couped argent? (with short limbs)
>
>Yes, and I wonder if the other devics you cite really were exactly the same
>as Savoy: the form of the cross was and is considered sufficient to
>distinguish two devices.  For example, Denmark's flag is "Gules, a cross
>argent", while Savoy is "Gules, a cross couped argent."  Are the crosses in
>the arms of Vienna and Tallinn identical to Savoy's cross couped?

It is? In that case, I've misled readers. Kingdom of Italy, Vienna and 
Tallinn are all Gules a cross argent. Plain cross throughout.

Share and enjoy,
tsahib.


-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."
From: rodmur@ecst.csuchico.edu (The Terminally Bored)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: SCAHRLDS echo?
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:46:56 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Is this an echo of the SCAHRLDS mail list?


-- 
   __        _                                       Dale A. Harris
  /  )      //                           /            rodmur@ecst.csuchico.edu 
 /  / __.  // _      , , , __.  _       /_  _  __  _ "Bored, bored, bored" 
/__/_(_/|_</_</_    (_(_/_(_/|_/_)_    / /_</_/ (_</_      The Tick, no. 1
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: bearing arms in America
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 06:24:43 GMT

cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:

>Having just perused the postings and in particular the discussion 
>of the sale of so called "family crests" in America, I was reminded
>of a question I have had recently regarding heraldry.

	it doesn't involve heraldry, but read on...

>Does the Constitution allow all United States citizens to be
>armigerous when it guarentees a person's "right to bear arms?"

	Since it doesn't appear in my Websters, "armigerous" is an
unknown to me.  However, the "right to keep and bear arms" as
enumerated in the second amendment and in Title 10, US Code, refer to
weapons, not heraldry, and due to Supreme Court rulings, may be in
reference strictly to "militia weapons."  You are free to draw your
own definition, as the Court did not provide one.

	Just to show it:
                                  AMENDMENT II
 
    A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

	This clearly refers to a militia, which according to USC 10 is
a psuedo-military force composed of all the people with some exceptions.
Nowhere does it mention "arms" as anything but weapons.  To further show
this, I mention that:

 Section 9.    The Migration or Importation of such Person [...]

    No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person
holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent
of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any
kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

	The Title of Nobility here is somewhat in contention, but note that
a coat of arms is not a title; it is merely an identification of heritage
in the USA.

	Thus, I'd say you were free to use any Coat of Arms you cared to,
so long as you don't claim such makes you a Duke in the USA.

	On the weapons issues, please cross-post to talk.politics.guns,
and on the other we can stick here.  Note I did not change a thing in the
header, so it's up to you to keep this argument relevant.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:34:15 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> I'm not an SCAer, myself, but it occurs to me that someone with a name or
> nickname involving squirrels might consider using the more subtle pun of
> a simple charge ("ordinary") in vair, rather than an actual drawing of a
> squirrel. 

That's a cute idea, but I don't know of examples of that kind of pun in
medieval arms; they tended to be a good deal more straightforward.  It
makes sense that they should be: They wanted to be recognized, not to be
subtle.

> "Vair" is French for a particular breed of squirrel...

Are you sure?  I thought it only named the fur.

> This was a favorite cloak lining for lesser nobles not entitled to wear
> the royal ermine. 

I've heard that explanation, but I don't know any evidence that it is true:
Vair was pretty expensive stuff in its time, and sumptuary laws restricting
the use fabrics and furs by rank were rare and poorly enforced.  

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: berry@athos.pei.com (Berry Kercheval)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:06:33 GMT
	<1992Sep10.214230.29631@nas.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: berry@pei.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Protocol Engines, Inc., Mt. View, California

>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 92 21:42:30 GMT, cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano) said:

Cassandra> In article <1992Sep9.194633.16617@ultra.com>,
Cassandra> jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software
Cassandra> Release Engr}) writes: I once heard, long ago, that the
Cassandra> position of the helm on the Coat of Arms notes something
Cassandra> about the person who received those arms. [...]  Can anyone
Cassandra> confirm or deny this?


According to Parker ("A Glossary of the Terms used in Heraldry",
London, 1894) there was originally no meaning to this and the helmet
was always drawn sideways.

About the time of Elizabeth (he meant E. the First) a system appeared:
The Soverign's helmet was gold, affronty (facing forward), lined with
crimson and with 6 bars or grilles.

The helmets of dukes, marquesses, earls, viscounts, and barons were
silver or polished steel, with 5 gold bars and lined with crimson.
SOme hold that they should be sort of halfway between affronty and
sideways, but the practice varied.

Baronet's and knight's helmets were affronty and open, but with a
visor.

Esquires and gentlemen were to bear helmets in profile with the visor
closed.

Bishops almost never bear a helmet, substituting a mitre instead.

Nor do women bear helmets, except the sovereign.

Whether this system is current Parker does not note.

  --berry
--
Berry Kercheval :: berry@pei.com :: Protocol Engines, Inc.  Mt. View, CA
"Car pool fatigue: it's like shell shock, but you don't get any VA benefits.
They just fill your gas tank and send you back to the front."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:14:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.194425.10658@cypress.com> rbv@cypress.com writes:
>Would somebody please translate the following for me?  These were arms
>granted to Lawrence Sheriff, founder of Rugby School, in 1559.  The
>second is supposedly also the arms of Rugby.
>
>1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased

Blue, on a wawy-edged horizontal bar between three off-torn griffins' head
(2 above, 1 below)

>2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules

a (heraldic) lily flower colored like the first enclosed by two red roses.

>Thanks
>Roger


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Scots Surnames
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:11:38 GMT



A good resource in looking up the history, spelling variations, etc. of 
various names from Scotland is Black's "The Surnames of Scotland". It won't
give you your family history, but it does show where the name came from, usually
what it means if not in English, and give examples of variations appearing in
various records throughout the centuries. Sometimes it quotes the records and
you can find interesting clues as to where the name was registered, in which
century.

Any good-sized library should have it...

Suze
(SCAka Moreach)
trifid@agora.rain.com

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: paigen@tfs.com (David Paigen)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:28:10 GMT

shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:

>I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
>(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
>sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.

>The two that I recall are a brown (perhaps a golden?) eagle
>superimposed over a quartered shield and a three-masted ship under
>full sail.  I don't recall maxims under either of them.

>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

There are a number of different branches of the McDonalds.  Most of the
brances other than the main (McDonald of the Isles) were "absorbed"
during the 16th and 17th centurys.  ("Psst, see those Cambells?  They
will come and take your women, join with us and we'll protect you.")]

I recall the ship as belonging to the McDonald of the Isles.

My wife knows more about this, she did the research for her line.  If you
want to have a banner of your own, you need to find out which branch of
the family you descend from.  Start at your local or university library in
the reference section.  Near the "Complete Peerage" by G.E.C. and
"Burke's Peerage," and related books you will find a number that discuss
how to trace your own family back.
From: edw@sequent.com (Ed Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:45:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1992Sep14.194540.11390
Organization: Orygun Society For HUman Rustabillity Assessment

In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
%
%I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
%(mostly the cheap mail-order things which I strongly suspect are pure
%sham), and was wondering if anyone knows what the true crest is.
%
%The two that I recall are a brown (perhaps a golden?) eagle
%superimposed over a quartered shield and a three-masted ship under
%full sail.  I don't recall maxims under either of them.
%
%Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?
Macdonald ? or MacDonald ? or McDonald ?
Makes quite a difference.

%
%--
%shralp@camelot.bradley.edu                      Jamie McDonald  <><
%
%"Dreams and dedication are a powerful combination." - Will Longgood


-- 
 I think I've got the hang of it now .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X exit ^X^C ~.
 ^[x  X Q  :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT ^[zz ^[ZZ 
 ZZZZ  ^H  ^@  ^L  ^[c $q ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T  ?  help  helpquit ^D  ^d ^C ^c help 
 ^]q  exit ?Quit ?q  anybackbone!sequent!edw edw@sequent.COM  KA9AHQ 28.340
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: marshalling (was Re: partitioned achievements)
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:40:06 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman):
>genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>> ...the arms of France (Azure three fleurs-de-lis or?  Or was it "Azure
>> fleury or"?  I can't recall offhand...)
>
>Both, actually.  Before the Hundred Years War, the French kings usually
>used three fleurs, but sometimes used more.  When the English kings
>started quartering that device, the French changed their arms to a semy in
>order to reduce the propaganda value of the English usage.

Thanks.

I looked this up when I got home yesterday.  "France Ancient", the official
arms of France into the late 14th century, was "Azure semy-de-lis or", with
semy-de-lis being a shorthand for "semy of fleurs-de-lis".  (For novices: semy
means "seeded", and refers to a field strewn with identical small copies of a
particular charge.)  In the late 14th century, Charles V (I think it was)
officially changed these to "France Modern": Azure three fleurs-de-lis or.
Henry IV of England adopted the new design in the arms of England in 1405 or
so.

(In either case, "Azure fleury or" wasn't correct.  "Azure fleuretty or" might
 be another way to describe France Ancient, though.)


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Xref: sparky rec.heraldry:35 rec.org.sca:12995 soc.culture.celtic:5899
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry,rec.org.sca,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: The High King of Ireland's Coat of Arms
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:06:59 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.

In article <1992Sep9.155904.22281@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.131415.5758@maths.tcd.ie>, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) writes:
>> 	I was in the National Heraldry Museum yesterday and took down the
>> current High King's coat of arms (O'Connor-Don). Thought people might
>> be interested:
>> 		Argent, A Oak Tree eradicated, vert.
>Wait a minute - do I understand this correctly? There is still a High King?
>If there is, who decides this and how? And what does "O-Connor-Don" mean?
	Oh, yes. Pre-Norman it was generally fought over. After surrender &
regrant it was largely nominal and passed between the O'Neills and the
O'Donnells. After the full english system was instituted here it became a
herititary title. The male line failed (in 1964?) which switched it to the
nearest female relative. It is now held by the O'Connor-Don family.

			Seamus

    %	   Seamus Donn		Eva de Barri            Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
   %|%	   Jo Jaquinta		Cathy Barry             Lesley Grant
/\\ | //\  jaymin@maths.tcd.ie	cbarry@maths.tcd.ie	lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
  =====			44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland.
   /|\			for the Shire of Lough Devanree (Lough Damh an Ri'gh)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry