From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: University of Turku
	<KRULWICH.92Dec30111428@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan5121023@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan6105007@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:24:18

In article <KRULWICH.93Jan6105007@zowie.ils.nwu.edu> krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich) writes:
> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> > The meaning of these words can also be seen based on their usage in Tanach.
> ...
> > in the verses using 'almah' (Gen 24:43, Ex 2:8, Ps 68:26, Prov 30:19, Song
> > of Songs 1:3, 6:8 and Is 7:14) the girl(s) can only be a virgin. 
                                                        ^^
Make it 'mean'. 

> Well, let's take a look.

> Gen 24:43 is when Eliezer is looking for a wife for Yitzchok, and is praying
> to G-d for assistance in finding her.  He says roughly "please let the alma
> who offers to help be the wife for Yitzchok."  Now, if you were Eliezer, would
> you pray to Hashem and say "let the woman who offers to help..." or "let the
> virgin who offers to help..." ??  The first makes alot more sense, and is the
> essence of the prayer.  Hardly a case of "can only mean virgin."

So, Eliezer didn't care whether Rivka was virgin or not...

> Ex 2:8 is when Pharoh's daughter asks Moses's sister to fetch a Jewish nurse
> for Moses.  The Torah says "and the alma ran to get the baby's mother."  What
> exactly does Miriam's virginity have to do with anything?  Obviously the verse
> is saying that the young woman ran to get Moses's mother.  Again, I don't see
> how it makes sense to mean "virgin," let alone that it "can only be a virgin."

Miriam obviously was a virgin. 

> Ps 68:26 discusses women playing music.  What does their virginal status have
> to do with anything?  Why can it "only mean virgin?"

What do you think those girls were, zonot ?

> Prov 30:19 discusses "4 things that I don't know: the way of vultures in the
> air, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the sea, and the way
> of a man with an alma."  It sure seems that this is referring to sexual
> activity, so it's hard to say it means a virgin.  "The way of a man with a
> woman" makes perfect sense.

See below.

> Song of Songs 1:3 says that "the aroma of your ointments is good, for flowing
> oil you are known, therefore alma's love you."  Again, what does this have to
> do with virginal status?  It makes perfect sense to see this as "and therefore
> young women love you."  Where do you see that this must mean a virgin?

What do you think, then ?

> Song of Songs 6:8 talks about "60 queens, 80 concubines, and alma's without
> number," in relation of sexual practice.  The verse goes on to say "my dove,
> my undefiled one, is but one."  That would seem to say that the "alma's
> without number" are in fact _not_ undefiled, and hence not virgins.  It's
> hardly the case that this "must be a virgin."

This is the worst misinterpretation so far. The verses talk about all the
queens, concubines, and virgins that the king has, but only one favourite
among them. If those almot would not be virgins, they'd be called concubines. 
SEE ?

> Is 7:14 of course talks about an alma giving birth.  Now, x-ians believe what
> they do, but non-virgins give birth all the time, so it's hardly the case that
> this "can only be a virgin."

Yeshua was born of a virgin...

> ** SO HERE WE HAVE IT: All the verses that you cited as "can only be a virgin"
> ** can in fact be read quite nicely as not-necessarily--virginal young woman.
> ** In fact, several of them (Prov 30:19, S'o'S 6:8, and Is 7:14) are much
> ** easier to see meaning a non-virgin.

S'o'S 6:8 PROVES it means virgin. In Is 7:14 the girl is virgin, no matter
what the actual word for her means. Prov. 30:19 see below.

> > As to Prov 30:19, I have an interpretation for it by Bruce Tiffany, if
> > anyone is interested...

> This is interesting.  You first give a list of citations, and then say "as to
> Prov ...."  Did you even notice that Prov 30:19 was in the above list also?
> Or did you just copy the list above out of some book without looking at them?

I've gone this through already before... 

Here's first Hillel Markowitz's "official" Rabbinic interpretation for 
Prov. 30:18-20:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a
>> rock, the way of a ship in the heart of the sea, and the way of
>> a man with a young woman (bealmah).  So is the way of an
>> adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes her mouth, and says, "I
>> have not sinned".
>>
>> The implication is clear that these four things are undetectable
>> immediately after their occurrence.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And then BT's interpretation:

BT> Actually it's not right at all.  I'm convinced the rabbis came up with this
BT> explanation explicitly to oppose belief in Yeshua, as they did with so many
BT> other passages.

BT> I read that verse on my own for years and never once thought of looking at
BT> it that way until I found out what the rabbis said.  Instead, I understood
BT> the *obvious* meaning, for which the implication *is* clear:  The way an
BT> eagle flies is wonderful (and it is), also the way a serpent moves, and
BT> the way a ship moves in the sea.  These things are marvelous.  I know,
BT> I've observed or participated in all of them!  :-)  No matter how much I
BT> learn about flight, muscle control, the construction of feathers, the
BT> skeletel structure of snakes, or marine navigation, I'll never fully
BT> understand how they do it; it's too wonderful for me.

BT> However, I certainly understand *perfectly* why these three things leave no
BT> trace of their passage (not always true with a serpent on a rock; definitely
BT> not true with sexual intercourse, regardless of the virginity or lack thereof
BT> of the woman).  That is *not* too wonderful for me.  And I'm sure the writer
BT> was no dumber than I.  To suggest that the primary meaning is that it
BT> leaves no trace is to use obviously forced logic for personal reasons; what
BT> would be the point, anyway?  But just as the wonder of flight, so it is with
BT> the wonder of the passion of love.  THAT is what is wonderful -- especially
BT> when it's the FIRST TIME -- not that it leaves no trace (which isn't true).
BT> Leaving no trace isn't wonderful.  Flying is.  Making love is.	:-)


Thus, in every verse given the meaning 'virgin' is possible, and in
some clearly the only correct one.

Add to this the usage of the word 'betulah' in Joel 1:8 and the similar
words meaning 'virgin' in Ugaritic and Pune (sp), as well as the earlier
Rabbinic way to translate 'almah' as virgin.  

> I suggest that any Jews who even partly believe in this stuff give the
> citations you're given a good hard look, and see if you _really_ think that
> they mean what it's claimed that they mean.

Yes, I recommend the same thing.

>  It's clear to me that Laura
> didn't even look at the above list of verses, because in no way do they show
> that "alma" means a virgin. 

Aw come on... I've had a long conversation about this before.

> In fact, having now seen the list, I'm even more
> convinced that it means "young woman."  Thank you Laura.

Stop cheating yourself ! Yeshua is the Messiah, and you won't find long
enough ladder to climb to heaven on your own !

> Any Jews out there who have questions about Judaism, or the Jewish view of the
> Torah, the Messiah, or of sin and forgiveness and redemption, please send me
> e-mail.

Any Jews out there who wish to know the truth, and what Tanach says about
the above things, please send me e-mail.

> Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
> krulwich@ils.nwu.edu

- Laura


--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33