HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: andy@hpsmo100.rose.hp.com (Andy Young)
Subject: Re: cd-roms cheaper?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:17:48 GMT
Organization: Nosferatu U.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

larsen@meena.cc.uregina.ca wrote:
>I sort of agree with the first quote.  I do not believe that the price
>of CDs will drop very much below the price of the the typical floppy price
>right now.  However, I think that it will eventually be considerably cheaper
>than the floppy price!  With the advent of twenty-disk games, the price of
>the media is becoming a significant factor in the production of software,
>as it is on game systems like the SNES.  It is to the game company's advantage
>to have everything priced this way.  They should sell more, because they won't
>have to worry about piracy, and it's cheaper for them to physically make.

I disagree. If CD-ROM ever becomes the 'standard' (I'm not sure if it will,
or if DCC or the new compact CDs will hop over to the Computer world), prices 
won't drop, the excuse will change... A 150 MB game costs lots more to 
design, and will therefore be priced higher. The price of the media isn't 
that big a factor in the price of a game. A two disk game currently costs 
the same as 12 disk game. The piracy issue (as far a cost) has been addressed,
and disproved IMHO, in other posts.


Andy.

andy@hpsmo100.rose.hp.com	Hewlett Packard	- Support Materials Operation
TSN: AndyY, Box 24491           8050 Foothills Blvd, Roseville, CA 95678
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: wyman@rtsg.mot.com (Mark S. Wyman)
Subject: Re: Strike Commander Video Demo
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:13:27 GMT

swkgohw@nuscc.nus.sg (Sir Launcelot Du Lac) writes:

>Hail Gamers!

>Had a look at the Strike Commander video demo at the recent Comtech '92
>trade show here in Singapore.  Only one word:

>			AWESOME!!!!	

>No matter when they finally release it, no matter what, 'tis DEFINITELY
>worth it!! Blows even F15 Strike Eagle III away!!!


Video demo?  Heh Heh... I will believe they have a great game when I see
a playable computer demo with a good frame rate on a 386 (remember, this
was supposed to be only for the then top of the line 386s :) )

Strike Out Commander by Origin.
We Create Worlds years behind schedule.

Mark
From: jaa@red4.acpub.duke.edu (JAMIL ALBERTELLI)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Savage Empire
Date: 13 Dec 92 18:54:57 GMT


  Does anyone have a Savage Empire solution / walkthrough ? Would be appreciated
if it could be posted or emailed to me

					-J -  jaa@red4.acpub.duke.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks)
Subject: Re: Microprose F1GP World Circuit
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:46:03 GMT

ccdvu@uqvax.cc.uq.oz.au writes:
>
>From the look of it, Microprose Formula 1 GP (world cicruit) is going
>to be THE BEST racing game EVER.  The problem is I have to buy a 486DX-50 or
>66 just to play this game at Indy 500 speed  8-(.

I noticed that the demo ran at slightly faster than real time (this was
with a reduced detail {I only have a lowly 386}) and wonder if this'll
be the case on the actual game.  When is it coming out?  I have it on
backorder and am getting very gittery every time I see a delivery vehicle.....

>It would be great if some one can build a driving cabinet complete with
>steering wheel, gear stick, brake and accelerator, put a VGA screen and
>a 486DX 50, and a Roland sound card in, it will surely beat the hell out
>of the arcade game Suzuka GP (or Winning Run).  Now that is an idea.....
 
You don't need no stinking gearshift!  :-)  What you need is a butterfly
type switch on the steering wheel, the world's going semi-automatic!!!

The IndyCar driver Lyn St. James prepared for this year's Indy 500 in 
a unique way.  She had a tub (chassis) with a tv in front of it showing
laps around the Speedway.  She also had a motor and chord hooked to a
helmet that would pull her head to the side at the appropriate time to
simulate the G forces.  Your cabinet definitely needs one of these!

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: cliff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Cliff Chen)
Subject: Re: LEMMINGS?!?!  Where is it??
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Distribution: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:03:42 GMT

In article <BzCvnr.Cwu@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:
>Is this game freeware/shareware?  If so, where's the nearest ftp site?
>I'm posing this question for someone with no net access and don't get
>to this group often, so e-mail's are *GREATLY* appreciated.

	Sorry, no.  It's commercial software.  It should run about $40.00
at your local Babbage's or Electronic Boutique.
	The sequel is also there for about $30.00, but doesn't contain the
game, just new levels.

						Cliff Chen
						cliff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
From: msf@skaro.as.arizona.edu (Michael Fulbright)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Out of This World Help Request
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:41:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

This is a simple request - I start the game, get out of the pool and
walk to the right. I get past the sluglike creatures, and then
get mauled by a lion. I've tried attacking and ducking the lion,
but to no avail. This has to be easy - what am i missing? How
do I get past this beast?

thanks
michael
msf@as.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: wyman@rtsg.mot.com (Mark S. Wyman)
Subject: X Wing won't be a stocking stuffer
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 05:42:56 GMT

Well, the LucasArts rep (god I keep saying Lucasfilms!!!) has
stated that the guys (and gals) gave it their best shot but
X Wing will not be out until next year.  He gave no date.

Hey, we can always get Strike Commander (whoops that slipped).
Gee...I hope UW2 makes it.

Mark

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: Gavin Adams <gavin.adams@lso.mts.dec.com>
Subject: Re: Wiz 7 - Ratkin ruins
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A751F2234D01BA16@godzilla.jdola.lanl.gov>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:11:15 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:12:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.015621.2148@nuscc.nus.sg> Chua Kong Sian,
ccecks@nuscc.nus.sg writes:
>I need some help with the Ratkin Ruins.  I've been inside, and explored
>most of it.  But I have found nothing to help me get into the Funhouse nor
>to pass the test of the Thieves Guild.  Some help will be appreciated. 
>Thanks.

I've searched all over the area, and still haven't found the correct
entrance into the Rattkin Ruins.  Could someone give me a hint on how to get
into the ruins?

--- Gavin
Visualize Whirled Peas!
From: mperry@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: Civilisation Master Edition
Date: 18 Dec 92 12:39:26 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1gqsr1INNmop@tamsun.tamu.edu>, edb9140@tamsun.tamu.edu (XXX) writes:
> One of my friends bought the Master Edition, and the only things that are 
> different from the non Master Edition is the book and a mouse pad (oh boy, 
> how can I resist such a tempation).  So basically it's a big waste of money, 
> unless you really need the help book.  The book is Rome on 640K a Day.  
There are differences.
In Ver 3. and 4. you can't disband a city (take population to 10000 and build a
settler). In the master edition you can. There are also a few more changes to 
the master edition. A microprose person would have a better idea what they are.

Comparison: The amiga version which is supposed to be about ver 3.5 is 
easier than the master edition at empire level - Just a feeling I get from
playing both. It seams to me that at emporer level the other countries are
friendlier to each other than to you, and tend to trade tech more redily.

> 
> 
> It's a big waste of money, IMHO
Its an oppinion. But if someone doesn't know how to play civ, and wants to
learn, it is an option. PS, the book is not "Rome on 640K a Day" it is
something like "Sid Miers Civilization" and is about 2.5 cm thick.
From: edn@hpldsla.sid.hp.com (Ed Neo)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:13:25 GMT
Subject: HELP - Savage Empires
Organization: HP Scientific Instruments Division - Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games

Possible Spoilers:

















I'm told that the Laboratory is to the south of the Kurak Village.  I've
wandered all over the place and can't find it.  Where is it??

I've found Topuru, the man who knows where the Urali tribe is and who lives
on an island.  Unfortunately he won't talk to me.  What do I need to do?

Any outright spoilers welcome.

Ed Neo
Hewlett Packard
Scientific Instruments Division
Palo Alto, Ca
edn@hpsid.sid.hp.com
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: MISC: Subgroups
Date: 11 Dec 1992 20:11:19 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <rdippold.724035949@cancun> rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:

I like all of the proposed charters except one.

>.action
>
>These are usually characterized as "Nintendo games."  If you could
>find it in a local arcade, it's probably an .action game.  Usually
>these are of the Super Mario Bros. side-scroller type or Galaxian
>shoot-em-up type.  If arcade action is the primary concern, and
>there's lots of shooting going on, chances are it's an .action game.
>This group is intentionally not named .arcade in order to minimize any
>confusion and accidental posting.
>
>Examples: Super Mario Brothers, Donkey Kong, Wing Commander, Speedball

Bad charter and *very* bad examples.  Here's my version:

These are games which depend mostly on quick reflexes.  They are
often, buy not always, concerned with destroying the "enemy" by
"shooting" him.  There may be an involved plot line, but it is not
actually important to the play of the game.  This group will include
ports of various arcade games, but it is intentionally not named
.arcade in order to minimize any confusion and accidental posting.

Examples:  Gods, Wing Commander, Wolfenstein 3-D

[Note that I copied the last line verbatim--I liked that part!]

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
From: mdjhelp@zeus.tamu.edu ("Mikey")
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: where can i find uw demo?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 15:22 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.tamu.edu
Keywords: uw
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

howdy  again,

exact that.  i have a friend that would like to see this demo so where
can i ftp it from?

thanks	mikey  a.k.a. mdjhelp@zeus.tamu.edu
From: oestline@maui.qualcomm.com (Ofer Estline)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: TENNIS Demo
Date: 21 Dec 92 06:00:35 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

In article <1992Dec18.204600.2935@nuscc.nus.sg> law40003@nusunix1.nus.sg (TAN YEW KEONG) writes:
>In singapore, already available - both original and pirated. It is the
>only tennis game to buy - great, with topspin, slice, volley etc. 
>--

	The demo doesn't come with instructions on how slice, topspin, volley,
	etc..  I also noticed my opponent diving to make the crosscourt return
	shot for a winner (on my soundblaster he emotes a groan upon hitting
	the ground!!! - nice touch).  And how about aiming your serve/shot  ??
	If you own the game, could you maybe dig up some answers ?? I am fast
	becoming an addict of this 3d tennis.
	Thanks,
	--Ofer
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: "Flight Sim" in outerspace (Re: Falcon 3.0 vs WingCommander II
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:09:48 GMT

From article <1992Dec17.182319.7935@cbnews.cb.att.com>, by tpp@cbnews.cb.att.com (thomas.p.pschar):
>>Wing Commander is not a jet fighter game.  Traditional dogfighting manuavers
>>do not apply to it.  It is excellent game, but it is game.  The joystick 
>>does not work like an aircraft.  When you move the joystick to the right, 
>>the nose of craft moves right, in a aircraft the plane would bank right.  This
>>takes a bit of time to get use to if you play a lot of flight simulators.
>>The graphics are excellent.  
>>
>>Stewart
> 
> 
> You ARE flying in space, mind you.
> And there is no up or down. And not many ailerons on that spaceship...

Is there "air" in outerspace?  If not, then how does ailerons work 
at all?  I would think only small rocket thrusters can enable the 
craft to "turn".  

Now if somebody can find ailerons on the space shuttle...
From: Daniel@bepcp.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: I pirated StarControlII
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:24:04 EST

Re: I pirated StarControlII
By: msv9203 #0 @tamsun.tamu.edu (Marshall Scott Veach) USEnet      
 
> That's right - I didn't "forget the docs at home" and I don't mind
> "having to look up all those damn coordinates" and I am not "annoyed
> at all those people stealing games and forcing companies to include
> protection" - I just don't have a legitimate copy of the game and
> can't play until I get a crack - Can anyone direct me to a location
> for the crack? Or if someone has it and wants to trade it for something
> - mail me.
> msv9203@tamsun.tamu.edu

Why don't you actually get off your ass and go out and BUY the game? A lot of
hard work went into the making of SC II. While I admit that 75% of all PC
entertainment products out there are pure drivel, SC II is >not< one of them.
Some of us make our livings doing this stuff, and crap like this doesn't help
me out one bit.
   - Dan Nicholson (PCkS Associates)

moddan@bowker.com      (908)964-8066

The views expressed are the author's only,          email   : @bowker.com
and not those of Reed Reference Publishing, Inc.          ...!uupsi!bepcp
                                                     FidoNet : 1:2605/705

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: raellero@vela.acs.oakland.edu (ELLERO ROGER A)
Subject: What RPG to buy?
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:00:56 GMT

Can anyone recommend/ steer me away from Eye Of the Beholder 2?
I'd like a nice RPG to keep me busy during the holiday vacation- one
that has a good balance of puzzles, plot, graphics, etc. If this game sucks,
what are some other good ones?

Thanks,

raellero@vela.acs.oakland.edu
From: pdc@lunch.wpd.sgi.com (Paul Close)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: Falcon 3.01.1 High Fidelity Flight Model bug (?)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 00:56:51 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Reply-To: pdc@sgi.com (Paul Close)
NNTP-Posting-Host: lunch.wpd.sgi.com
Originator: pdc@lunch.wpd.sgi.com

John Jabusch (jabusch@zorro.cecer.army.mil) writes:
>garee@convex.com (Scott Garee) writes:
>
>>Also, someone mentioned hydrazine.  That is used in spacecraft, not
>>airplanes.  It is far too deadly to be used in civilian areas.  A
>>human can detect it at about 5 parts per million, it is lethal at 3.
>
>Wrong!  Hydrazine is a super carcinogen, and lethal at low levels, but 
>it is used on some military aircraft.  The most notable is the F-16.
>[...]
>There would be a lot fewer F-16s in the inventory if it weren't for
>hydrazine....

Okay, but why hydrazine?  Given its extreme lethality (if that's a word), it
seems a very poor choice.  I would think that there must be something else
that would work almost as well....  Maybe not.
-- 
Paul Close	     pdc@sgi.com	   ...!{ames, decwrl, uunet}!sgi!pdc

			No fate but what we make
From: zweldron@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Matthew Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: Ultima 6 Shrine of D
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:01:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

rauchfuss@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Brian Rauchfuss) writes:
>Where is the statue in the Shrine of Determination/Dedication/(Whatever it's
>called)?  I have searched every room and every corridor, isn't that
>Dedication?  Do I have to open up every door or kill every monster or
>something?

It is Diligence.
As for the statue of Exodus, look for a secret door in one of the walls.
Casting Wizard Eye a lot helps in searching. I think this is in the SW 
corner (like one aisle in in each direction), so start the search there.
You'll find a ladder behind the door and Exodus is easy to find from there.
-- 
--Matthew Charlap
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is STILL a test of the .signature 
If this were a real .sig file, something else would be here, not just a name.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: gsbg9079@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (G. Scott Braley)
Subject: Comments on V for Victory?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:01:13 GMT

Is it any good?  Both the D-Day and the Russian one look pretty cool.  Has 
anyone played them?

					-Scott

-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  F.B.I.B.M.--The most feared merger  *  gsbg9079@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu         *
*****************************************************************************

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: primus@netcom.com (Robert keng)
Subject: Re: F15SEIII is out!
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:29:08 GMT

langev@cbnewse.cb.att.com (steve.j.langevin) writes:
: I was in Babbages last night and saw F15SE3.   Anyone gotten it yet?
: I'd like at least an impromptu review before I buy.  Thanks
: 
:  ========================================================================
:   Steve Langevin             att!iwddo1!langev            (708) 979-5949
:

		I saw it at Eggheads also. Looks good, but I am NOT about to
be duped again! (sorry, bad experience with Novalogic's big Comanche letdown).
Can someone who's brave enough to risk 50+ dollars post a review or pre-review
of the game please? Thanks ......



-Rob

primus
primus@netcom.com
From: rhein@eecs.wsu.edu (Rick Hein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: F-16 flight characteristics
Date: 19 Dec 92 01:16:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: serval.1992Dec19.011655.24725
Organization: School of EECS, Washington State University

Just to add my .02 cents, I have some pictures of f-16 and f-15's  that were involved
in a mid air collision and were able to return to base. The f-16 in particular was missing
the right hand horizontial stabilizer. When I get back from break I might scan them and e-mail
them to people who want them. The interesting thing about the damage is is that the computer
kept the plane flying by compensating for the damage (don't ask me how).


-- 
Scanning Disk for Virus.....................
Virus Found......
Virus Name is DOS, remove(y/n)?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: sporter@engws4.ic.sunysb.edu ()
Subject: Links Courses ?
Originator: sporter@engws4.ic.sunysb.edu
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:29:33 GMT


	I remember a discussion about where to get Links courses.
	Are there such places still around if they even existed?
	Please send me any info you have on this subject.

					Thanks,

					    Scott

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
 ___________   					   ___________
/_________  /\            Scott Porter	          /_________  /\
\  ______/ / /				          \  ______/ / /
 \ \ \  / / /					   \ \ \  / / /
  \ \ \/ / /          SPORTER@ic.sunysb.edu         \ \ \/ / /  
   \ \ \/ /					     \ \ \/ /
    \_\__/					      \_\__/
From: isc30108@nusunix1.nus.sg (AMBAT SASI S/O PALISSERY P)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
Subject: Re: Indy: Fate of Atlantis, HELP!
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:03:57 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

u dont have to open the other doors & i dont know how to either
As for the pulley, u can only access it in the team mode.

sasi.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games,misc.forsale.computers,ne.forsale
From: rpeou@athena.mit.edu (Rith   Peou)
Subject: 386DX/40 for sale
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:35:35 GMT


I have the following for sale:
        386DX 40Mhz in a mini tower case (very spacious for extra devices)
        3.5" & 5.25" high density floppy drives
        4MB RAM (SIMMs), 170MB IDE HD
        Trident SVGA (1MB) card, Goldstar SVGA (1024x768) monitor
        3 button optical mouse
	------>  $1400 (complete system only)

If the price seems high, make me an offer.

        -Rith
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: kilborn@iastate.edu (Scott E Kilborn)
Subject: Re: Microprose F1GP World Circuit
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:09:27 GMT

In <1992Dec17.130605.16016@uqvax.cc.uq.oz.au> ccdvu@uqvax.cc.uq.oz.au writes:

>Hello netters.

>From the look of it, Microprose Formula 1 GP (world cicruit) is going
>to be THE BEST racing game EVER.  The problem is I have to buy a 486DX-50 or
>66 just to play this game at Indy 500 speed  8-(.

>It would be great if some one can build a driving cabinet complete with
>steering wheel, gear stick, brake and accelerator, put a VGA screen and
>a 486DX 50, and a Roland sound card in, it will surely beat the hell out
>of the arcade game Suzuka GP (or Winning Run).  Now that is an idea.....

>Cheers,

>David

Great idea!  I have been thinking about doing a greatly abbreviated
version of this myself.  If anyone has the specific stats for joystick
inputs (value of pots and pin-outs) please post or e-mail to me.

Actually, you would probably just need the steering wheel, brake,
and accelerator.  Hopefully, these last two would be just the two
joystick buttons.  Anyway, anyone who has done this or is thinking about
it, let me know.

-Scott Kilborn (kilborn@iastate.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: tola@jyu.fi (Teemu Lahteenmaki)
Subject: Re: Alone (In Dark) again
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:04:17 GMT

(There are tiny spoilers coming..)

In article <1992Dec17.143310.6933@penet.fi> an1049@anon.penet.fi writes:


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Otto I. Kopra writes:
>
>OK>	Use the old Cavalry Sabre from the locked chest. It seems to be only
>OK> weapon to have any effect on "Captain Hook". It'll be very difficult, 
>OK> though...
>	
>	Well I broke my first Sabre already, but got another one from
>guarding knight at library door. I eliminated the knight by throwing the heavy
>statue towards it, as I was told here earlier. (Thanks!)

It is possible to kill the Captain with a broken sabre also, no problem.

BTW, Could someone send a complete solution/spoiler/lamer text here ?

-- 
____________________________________________________________
I  Teemu Lahteenmaki - student of mathematical computing   I
I  Intergalactical University of Jyvaskyla, Finland        I
I_ tola@jyu.fi ___________ 25 30'32" East 62 37'59" North _I