HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Penetrating ability of 38 Sp and 9mm
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:15:37 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

@fuug.fi:maxxon@swob.nullnet.fi (Mikko Kurki-Suonio) writes:

#To reduce chances of overpenetration, I decided to use Hydra-Shoks.

How would that reduce overpenetration?     I don't see why HS would 
penetrate one bit less than hardball through a monitor.  It takes
liquids to open up a hollowpoint.

#However, we never found the bullet. The monitor plastic casing was in
#perfect condition, so it never penetrated even that far. I guess
#Hydra-Shoks weren't meant to be used against marauding monitors...

More likely it deflected and exited in a spot you didn't notice.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock adoption
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:42:09 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Oct3.003922.5337@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
#
#	Has the Glock been adopted by any large organization, police-force or
#military?
#								Thanks.

About half the metro police forces in Georgia have adopted the Glock.
Not really surprising since the US factory is here. 

Gary
From: smmyers@pbhyg.pacbell.com (Sean M. Myers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 12g shotgun defense ammo
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:23:38 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

#The requirements are as follows:
#
#- Operative range < 10 yards (indoors)
#- Penetration is not an issue (walls are very solid here)
#- Optimum shot spread (That could merit another discussion, i think.)
#- High stopping power against two-legged vermin.
#
#What I'd lke to know is:  What shot size yields good spread over the
#short distance, while preserving enough penetration to stop?  Which
#shot sizes are sufficient for defense purposes?  What do you think
#about 3" vs. 2.75" cartridges?  Any other points to keep in mind with
#defense ammo for shotguns?
#

	What about 4 00 (4 ott (sp.)) buck shot.  There are about 39 pellets per
shell.  In a test I did on them, they had no problem penetrating a 1/2 inch
sheet of plywood at about 20 ft. (about the length of my hallway).  There
wasn't a lot of spread, but enough so that I felt comfortable in my wife 
hitting what she aims at.

	Check em out.


	Sean
From: harrism@aquila.rtp.dg.com (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Lee bites back.
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:42:27 GMT
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <1992Oct6.142421.3561@bbxrbk>, bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
|> In article <13400045@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes in regard to primers going off in a Lee press:
|> #You tend to get what you pay for....  The Lee isn't a bad press.  It is simply
|> #a bit less sturdy in some areas and less forgiving.  Unless it has happened 
|> #recently, I don't think Lee offers a lifetime warranty.  I can state that 
|> #the Dillon case feeder (in my case at least) works well all the time....
|> 
|> I'm wondering what it takes to have a primer go off while loading. 
|> I've crushed primers into cases where a significant amount of the
|> primer was flattened and no primer has gone off (yet).
|> 
|> So what it setting these primers off in folks presses?

	Luck that isn't as good as yours!
From: minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Can airgun scope be used on centerfire rifle?
Date: 15 Oct 92 01:55:19 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

In article <1992Oct14.160200.26034@ke4zv.uucp> Gary Coffman,
ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu writes:
#In article <9210122323.AA15751@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>
minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov 
#(Minh Lang) writes:
##I know that a centerfire rifle scope cannot be used
##on an air gun due to the dual-phase recoil of a
##piston-operated air gun.  I'm wondering now if
#
#Frankly, I find this hard to believe. I've got a Leupold 1.5x5 on a
#Crossman piston-operated airgun and it's survived thousands of shots.
#
#Gary

That's what I read on books which talked about air gun scopes
and standard scopes. And in fact scope manufacturers designed
scopes for centerfire and air gun separately. I didn't try
it (putting a normal scope on my high-power air rifle) so
I can't tell if an air gun can damage a normal scope or not...
A normal scope was designed to stand for the rearward
recoil of a cartridge, while a piston-operated air gun
produces forward and readward forces (the piston
moves forward and bounces back) which can damage
a normal scope's optic. At least that's what the book
said, I don't know how many shots of pellets it takes
to damage one... :-)

  == Minh ==

+------------------------------------------------------------+
 Minh Lang, Software Engineer  - Jet Propulsion Laboratory
 Instrumentation Systems Group - Instrumentation section 375
 Note:  My employer has nothing to do with what I said here...
+------------------------------------------------------------+
From: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: First pistol recommendations
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:17:36 GMT
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH

As quoted from <7629@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> by nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman):

# 
# First:  What pistol would you recommend?  I have two criteria:  Number 1 is
# cost.  That is very important.  I'd prefer to spend as little as possible.

If you are committed to a 9mm as your first handgun, I'd recommend a Browning
High Power.  They are quite reasonably priced, especially the Argentine
versions, which often go for under $300.  The FNs are usually available for
around $389.

# Number 2 is accuracy.  Although not as important as cost, I want a gun that
# can post pretty decent groups.  So I guess you could say I'm looking for 
# the cheapest 9 mm semi-auto that still posts pretty tight circles.  Any 
# suggestions?  I'm not too worried about looks or feel.  I've found I can 
# adjust to just about anything.
# 
I can't think of a 9mm pistol that isn't around twice the price that's 
signficantly more accurate.  A 9mm Springfield M1911A1 would probably do
quite well, but you give up four or five rounds in the process.  I'm very
happy with my FN "Assembled in Portugal" gun.

# Second:  Where should I look to buy one?  Would a gun show be the best place?
# How do I find out about local gun shows (western Pennsylvania)?
# 
If you weren't in PA, gunshow would DEFINITELY be the way to go.  I've seen
gunstores in Cleveland charge $500+ dollars for a $300 Taurus 9mm.  Since 
there's a waiting period in PA, I don't know if there's really a price 
difference.

# Third:  How hard is it to buy a pistol?  How long would I have to wait?  Can
# I buy a pistol mail-order?  Out of state?
# 
Mail order sales for non FFLs have been banned since 1968.  Out of state sales
are also illegal.



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  

"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"It's 11:59pm, do you know where your congressman's checkbook is?"
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort                      cmort@ncoast.org

Xref: sparky rec.guns:14253 talk.politics.guns:22143
From: rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Sources of criminals' guns; was (Re: Lies and statistics)
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:04:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucsu.199210141632.AA03090
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Bob Hale (btree!hale@UCSD.EDU) writes:
#John Bercovitz (bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov) writes:
##Doug brings to mind a point I've been curious about for a very long
##time: Has anyone studied the sources of criminals' guns?  Percentagewise,
##how many guns in criminal hands are stolen from thee and me, how many
##are bought outright because the DOJ didn't properly check out the
##applicant, how many are bought illegally from private parties, how many 
##are stolen from armories or smuggled across the border? 
#
#Your question has remarkable timing.  In the October 9, 1992 issue
#of Gun Week there is a short article on just this subject.  Here
#are a few relevant paragraphs:
#
#"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) surveyed 471
#carreer criminals in its recently released "Protecting America, Yes"
#study and found that only 7% of guns used in violent crimes are
#purchased from retail dealers.
# [ ... ] 

But there's a bias to the data collection here -- BATF surveyed 471 of the
criminals who get caught.  Most sophomore sociology students could tell you 
that the persons found in prison cells do not represent a random sample of 
the persons breaking the law.  Without better surveying techniques, it is
not valid to claim that captured/convicted criminals obtain their guns in 
the same manner as those who are not captured/convicted.

That being said, it would still surprise me if the numbers for the rest of 
the criminals were radically different from the convicts.  The assertion that 
_most_ of the guns used for crimes are obtained from non-retail sources
(and then the implication that dumping more restrictive regulations on gun 
retailers will have little effect on violent crime rates) is probably valid.

--Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU
nitpicker and devil's advocate for hire.

[MODERATOR:  And with that we will migrate over to talk.politics.guns....]
From: cain@silverblue.fac.cs.cmu.edu (Sebastian Nightingale Cain)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Well? Reccomendations for a SIG fan.
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:20:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.9210130236.AA15635
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Well, I put my Glock 21 up forsale after getting and shooting my SIG 226.   
I have 3 people interested in it right now, so I'm pretty sure I'll sell  
it (knock on wood), and would like to get another handgun as soon as I do,  
but I don't know which one! After all - what could be better than or equal  
to a SIG, except another SIG?  Which leads me to my current choices : a  
220, another 226, a 228, or a 229 if they ever materialize.  I'm leaning  
toward a 220 or another kkote 226 - I liked it so much I bought the  
company... er - right.  How's that for buyin' all of em?  So send me your  
experiences with the 220/228/229 compared to the 226/other guns and I'll  
summarize for the net if there is enough response/interest.  I like  
unix/can't/you/../tell?

thanks
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Can airgun scope be used on centerfire rifle?
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:16:03 GMT
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

In article <9210122323.AA15751@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Minh Lang) writes:
#I know that a centerfire rifle scope cannot be used
#on an air gun due to the dual-phase recoil of a
#piston-operated air gun.  I'm wondering now if
#an air-gun scope can be used on a centerfire
#rifle?

It's possible.  I have a Beeman SS-2 air-rifle scope I use strictly on
my .223 semi-auto.  I put at least 750 rounds thru like this so far,
and no problems have shown up yet.

#I would appreciate any info/help, as
#I have a real nice target style air gun 
#scope that I like to use it on my 30-06
#when I'm not practicing my air gun indoor...

Contact the manufacturer first ...

#Thank you very much
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Spent brass lead hazard... test kit found lead
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:41:53 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <26688@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
##.......  Handling a lot of brass, even clean
##brass, ought to warrant a hand wash too, since naked brass registers
##with a lead content.
#
#A few questions/thoughts:
#I wonder if some other metal other than lead can trigger your test strips.

I don't know, since I don't know the chemistry of the strips.  Given
that many other metals are used in paints and ceramics, and that the
strips are particularly sold for checking them, I doubt it.

#Cartridge brass, which is CDA 260, is 70% Cu and 30% Zn.  Lead would be a weak-

I think the key is the Zn.  As I remember it, some quantity of lead is
found in most Zn ores (and maybe many Cu ores too, but Cu is electrolyticly
refined, so the lead should fall out...).  The test strips are sensitive
down to 5ppm, so it wouldn't take much to register ... try converting
5ppm to % and see if you still think it we effect the alloy...

#ening contaminant and shouldn't be found in any significant quantity. Sometimes
#1/2% or more of lead is added to brass to make it easier to machine but I don't
#think that is the case here.  

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Can airgun scope be used on centerfire rifle?
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:58:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: beta.9210151527.AA28279
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this discussion is
eye relief.

Does an "airgun scope" have sufficient eye relief for use on a
centerfire rifle (I believe .30-06 was mentioned in the original
post)?

Of course, if this is purely a theoretical discussion, please
pardon my intrusion.  On the other hand, if someone really plans to
try this, I should thing that he would be well advised to assure
adequate eye relief before the blood drips all over his stock.

Just a thought.


-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  crs@lanl.gov
From: kunz@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Silencer questions
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:48:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: flubber.9210121416.AA15636
Organization: Informatik Club Uni Zurich

In article <1992Sep29.123738.478@email.tuwien.ac.at> robert@cuba.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Robert Glock) writes:
#Does anybody have practical experiences with the use of silencers on 
#handguns? I am interested in these gadgets' effects on shooting,
#especially in the following questions (I know that this depends on 
#the used ammunition; please include information about this in your 
#answers):
#
hmm, is it legal to say i use silencers? oh well, here goes

#- How much of the bang do they _really_ suppress (I don't think movies
#  are good reference 8-) )? Could you compare the resulting noise 
#  to some everyday noise?
#
well, i have silencers on some 22s and on my 9mm uzi. since both
silcers are pretty good, they both sound quiter than an air gun.
actually, all you're supposed toi hear when shooting subsonic ammo is
the click of the bolt. so i guess you could best describe the sound as a
bolt moving back and forth. don't be mistaken when watching someone
shoot a silencer and you hear a bang. that is normally the bullet
hitting the metal plate at the end of teh range. for optimum results,
shoot into something that won't make a sound when hit, like wood or
sand.

#- Do silencers affect the accuracy of the gun?
#
hmm, never tried. if it's as in paintball, accuracy is improved... i
can't imagine losing accuracy due to the use of silencers.

#- Do silencers wear out through repeated use? If so, how many shots
#  (approx.) can you shoot before you have to replace the silencer?
#
i have heard tha they should be properly cleaned once in a whaile and
the use of non subsonic ammo could also damage the silencer. oh, and
never use shotshells in a silencer :-)

#Answers to these questions will be highly appreciated, but every 
#information concerning this subject will be welcome. 
#
there are sopme books on silencers, however i have no infos on them.

cu
-pete


-- 
Peter J. Kunz		Home:		(+41) 061 721 75 56 (Weekends)
P.O. Box 315		Business:	(+41) 01  261 35 74 (Weekdays)
4106 Therwil		Fax:		(+41) 061 324 71 88
Switzerland		E-Mail:		pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: States Granting Nonresident CCWs?
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:53:32 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <1992Oct7.001535.114@netcom.com> feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel) writes:
#Several posters have indicated that some states grant CCW permits to
#nonresidents? Which states do this and how does one get these permits?
#I'd love to have a CCW permit from each of these states!

Places to write :

MASSACHUSETTS  Firearms Licensing
               Department of Public Safety
               1010 Commonwealth AVenue
               Boston, MA

NH             Firearms Licensing
               NH State Police
               Hazen Drive
               Concord, NH

ME             Firearms Licensing
               Maine State Police
               36 Hospital Street
               Augusta, ME

These states will all process non resident applications completely
thru the mail.

#-- 
#Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
# 
#[.sig on vacation]
#
From: rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Carrying around country
Date: 8 Oct 92 00:53:00 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

Hi all,

I was thinking of taking a trip accross country on my motorcycle this
summer and would feel much better if I had my Taurus PT92 with me.
I have a Connecticut carry permit.  Can I get a temporary national
(federal) permit?  If not, how can I carry it without getting into trouble?
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: lead free primers?
Date: 10 Oct 92 13:39:36 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Oct7.044550.10490@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
}Does anyone know who makes lead free primers and finished ammo
}with lead free primers?
}
}I remember someone said Fiocci made lead free primers, but I can't
}find them locally.  There was some mention that Blazer? ammo had
}lead free primers?

I've been useing CCI Blazer Lead Free for practice in my P226 and I'm
happy with it (just bought another case, in fact).  Unfortunately, I
haven't seen it in any other caliber and the 9mm is getting thin on the
ground (so to speak.  The aluminum "brass" is non-reloadable).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Calibers for Long Distance Shooting
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:48:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: ra.1992Oct12.132542.3126
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <1992Oct1.151320.1629@ra.msstate.edu> I write:
#In article <23SEP199208290908@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) writes:
##I am soliciting opinions from all you experts out there about what caliber to 
##use for long distance bullseye shooting.  The rifle will be a bolt action, and 
##its intended use would be for distances of 600 yards and greater.

 [some truly brilliant observations on my part deleted ;-) ]

#bolt gunners are now shooting  .243 (6 mm) out to 600 y. I am not
#ready to suggest that one build a 1000 yd. match gun in 6 mm, but
#I can't see any reason to go above 7mm. My first choice would be .284 Win.

Since I posted this, there has been an on-going side discussion about
long range shooting and the selection of appropriate calibers. Bart
Bobbitt has provided some very helpful insights which bring me to
revise my recommentation.

There are many calibers ranging from 7mm-08 to 300 Win. Mag. which
are adequate for 1000 yard bullseye competition. While I continue
to believe that .308 is a less-than-optimum cartridge for this use
and that I would like try a .284 Win. after I wear out the .308
barrel on my model 70; the .308 has many virtues which need to
be considered:

1. .308 is  the most (not least) common denominator in mid and long
   range target shooting. If you shoot .308 you  will find that all
   the windage and elevation tables apply to you. Anyone mentoring
   your shooting will understand exactly what the rifle and cartridge
   should do  under any circumstances.

2. You may, depending on your location, find some matches or awards
   closed to you  if you don't shoot .308 . If you ever shoot
   long-range outside the US you will probably be required to shoot
   the "house brand" .308 ammo.

3. Barrel life with some of the better long-range cartridges is
   nothing  short of abysmal. A .308 barrel may last 5000 rounds
   whereas some magnums only last 1100.

4. It is possible to use the same rifle from 200 yards all the way out
   to  1000 yards.

5. It WILL teach you a lot about wind doping.

6. If, God forbid, the effluvium should ever contact the air mover,
   you will be able to shuck rounds off a MG belt and feed them to
   your target gun.

7. Everyone needs at least one good bolt gun in .308 .
   
8. If you should decide that this is  not the game for you, you
   can always find a buyer for a .308 bolt gun. The same may not
   be true  of some other calibers.  (e.g. .284 Win.)

In summation, if you  are thinking of starting out in long-range
shooting, don't confuse yourself worrying about  which caliber is
"The Best". Get a good gun in .308 and concentrate on your shooting
with the assurance that the cartridge will do it's part. Before
you have worn out your first barrel, you will know the caliber
with which  you wish to continue.
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 12 guage recoil: how to limit?
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:04:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: ke4zv.1992Oct14.140809.25296
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Oct9.034451.331@nuscc.nus.sg> swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:
#When I eventually return home to Oz, i'll need to get some kind of
#shotgun to deal with the snakes we regularly get on our farm. A .410
#is ideal especially for the wife, but i'm loath to get a gun that is
#limited to this role. I'd rather get a 12 gauge pump that can be put to other
#purposes as well.
#
#How can I limit the recoil of a 12 guage to make it acceptable to my
#wife (small--115 lbs)? Will removing a large percentage of shot reduce
#the propelled mass and hence the recoil? I'd like a simple solution
#without involving reloading etc.

First let me say that a 12 gauge shotgun need not offer a recoil problem
to a person of small stature. Many 12 year olds happily handle 12 gauge
shotguns. Don't *assume* that your wife can't handle full house loads
in a light 12 gauge, you might be surprised. There are several factors 
determining felt recoil. Foremost is the weight of the shotgun followed 
by the *fit* of the weapon to the shooter, the use of a recoil pad, and 
finally ammo choice. For the least recoil, get a heavy gun with a good 
stock fit and recoil pad, and shoot "low brass", "dove&quail", or "skeet" 
loads. With these steps, even a small child can handle a 12 gauge.

In the don't try this at home category, I find that even the lightest
12 gauge loaded with magnum buckshot can be fired with one hand, not
shouldered, with no pain and no strain. Shotgun recoil is highly
overrated. If your shotgun *fits* properly, all you should feel is
a "push" against your body when you fire. If the gun bruises you,
it doesn't fit.

Gary