HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: israel vs. world
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 01:23:21 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Dec19.1777.21319@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>The entire world has condemned the Israeli deportations,
>including the U.S., and including both George Bush on the
>Republican side and Bill Clinton on the Democratic side.
>
>The Security Council vote in the UN condemning the deportations
>was unanimous.
>
...
>The current situation is a classic example of what I was talking
>about a few days ago, before this crisis erupted: diaspora Jews
>are increasingly put in the untenable position of trying to
>defend Israeli policies which the entire world condemns. It is an
>impossible exercise to conduct without looking ridiculous.

    Agreed.  The UN Security Coouncil has made it abundantly clear 
    that nothing short of mass executions would be tolerated.

    For example, when the Syrians took over Lebanon about a year ago, 
    they summarily executed more that 700 Christian militiamen (with
    their hands tied benind their backs), and no condemnation of any 
    sort followed.  Apparently, that was the right thing to do.

    Had the Syrians chosen to deport the militiamen, the entire world 
    would have condemned them, just as it condemns Israel today.


    



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money."                             Other opinions are mine.
 Deep Throat                                    Disclaimer: 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: jewish racism
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:24:04 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

#Do you deny that Jabotinsky made the racist remarks I quoted (and
#which I will quote below)?

 MIK> No.  But they are not racist.  They are racial.  There's a
 MIK> big difference that may be beyond your ability to grasp.

I'll wager you're the only one around here who doesn't realize
that Jabotinsky's comments were racist. And I note carefully that
you can't bring yourself to repudiate those racist views. If your
rhetorical style weren't a clear enough indicator of where you
are coming from, your apologetics for Jabotinsky's racism would
certainly do the job.

     "It is impossible for a man to become assimilated with
     people whose blood is different than his own. In order to
     become assimilated, he must change his body, he must become
     one of them, in blood. There can be no assimilation. We
     shall never allow such things as mixed marriage because the
     preservation of national integrity is impossible except by
     means of racial purity and for that purpose we shall have
     this territory where our people will constitute the racially
     pure inhabitants."

For the purpose of Jewish racial purity, Israelis, according to
Jabotinsky, the mentor of Begin and Shamir, "shall have this
territory where our people will constitute the racially pure
inhabitants." Clearly there is no room in that territory for
racially impure inhabitants--that's the fair inference. They
would sully the land and dilute the purity of Jewish blood. So
they must be removed. Deportation is one method.

Any Israeli or supporter of Israel who subscribes to or defends
this doctrine (and I pray to God that the Mark Ira Kaufman's are
in a small minority on this point) will be in no position to
object if, say, ethnic Germans take care to protect the German
racial purity of their territory. In a racially pure Germany, or
France, or England there would be no room for Jews or any other
"racially impure" group. The racially impure groups could be
forgiven if they viewed such a doctrine as not merely "racialist"
but "racist," i.e., discriminatory towards themselves as
individuals and as members of an "alien" ethnic group.

It's interesting to note that both Jabotinsky and Jonathan
Pollard are exceedingly strident about the proposition, usually
considered a staple of Nazism, that Jews constitute a "race" (and
fascinating as well that you have leaped to the defense of both
gentlemen).

Keep the hate mail coming, btw; far be it from me to to inhibit
your superb public relations work on behalf of Israel. No wonder
Israel is doing so well of late.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  documents as active intelligences
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: One state solution
Date: 20 Dec 92 08:38:32 GMT

<1992Dec19.171726.27595@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

I believe that the best resolution of the "Israeli/Palestinian problem"
would be the formation of one Israel with native Palestinians living
side by side with Jews in peace. 

	Brilliant!  And the best resolution of the Bosnian/
	Croatian/Serbian problem is the formation of one Yugoslavia
	with the natives living side by side in peace.  Let's 
	solve the Kurdish problem next!

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date: 20 Dec 92 01:27:53 GMT

The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
the Occupied Territories.

My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
which *led* to the expulsions?

Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?


--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

NOTICE:  I lose this account in a few days, so *please* direct all replies
to my new address: --->>   cubsfan@oread.cc.ukans.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:44:28 GMT

In article <1h0oifINNkgu@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
> Michael Silverman writes...
>
>>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>>the Occupied Territories.
>>
>>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>>which *led* to the expulsions?
>>
>>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?
>
>    IMHO, there is no way to answer your question.  There doesn't
>    seem to be any sort of underlying principle to decisions made
>    by the UN.  This is the same organization which asserted that
>    Zionism is racism.  It is also the same organization which is
>    blind to the racism of organizations whose members take oaths
>    to kill all Jews.
>
>    In case you had not noticed, there has been an outcry against
>    the deportations, but the world has remained silent about the
>    murders that led up to it.  
>
>    Furthermore, the reception given to the deportees was not the
>    most cordial.  Their Arab brothers in Lebanon would not admit
>    them to Lebanon.  They chose to leave their Arab brothers out
>    in the cold.  What has the world said about that? 
>
>    Even the Arab delegates to the peace talks said nothing about
>    the murders that have taken place over the last few weeks.  
>
>    I tried to imagine Toledano's murder turned around.  A Jewish
>    terrorist group kidnaps some innocent Arab.  They proclaim it
>    to have been an act protesting the holding of Ron Arad.  They
>    say that they will kill the Arab if Ron Arad is not released.
>    The deadline for Arad's release passes and, within hours, the
>    innocent Arab is found on the side of the road, tossed out of
>    a moving car as if he was a bag of garbage.  His dead body is
>    found bound from head to toe.  He had been tied up and knifed 
>    over and over, until he was dead.  
>
>    Do you think the world would be upset with such a treacherous 
>    and sadistic murder?

I'm sure it would. Whether the Israeli government would hold a consistant line
of policy and deport 415 jewish poeple as a response remains to be seen.
Again the UN protests actions that are deemed agains INTERNATIONAL law and
not all acts of random violence

You can't equal the actions of a bunch of blood thirsty fanatics to that of
a state with international obligations and agreements.

Zeyd
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: the memory of 2.5 million is not that silent
Date: 14 Dec 1992 09:12:56 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Arxid) writes:
re: "Schuerzinger" insults the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslim people.

Arxid Bey,

judging from the amount of crap coming out of your account, I do not
find the memory of the '2.5 million' people that silent.

In fact, I have a good reason to believe that they've all risen from 
the dead and started reading and posting news, all using your user-id...

Bah Bah Bah

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "Ne mutlu anti-Argic diyene ?
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 Ne mutlu anti-Mutlu diyene !"
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Pollard & Jewish Terrorism
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 05:55:53 GMT

To: Mark Ira Kaufman

You repeatedly answered the well-documented charge that Jonathan
Pollard is a supporter of Jewish terrorism with the nasty
personal insult that the bearer of these tidings was a "liar."

Three times now you have been presented with the evidence that
Pollard praised the cowardly and terrorist bombing of innocent
Arab civilians, and only regretted, in a gratuitious expression
of viciousness, that the violence could not have been more
deadly.

If you have any integrity and honesty, you will admit that
Pollard is indeed a supporter of Jewish terrorism, and that
revealing this fact is not a lie but a statement of plain truth.

Do you have any integrity and honesty? Do we need to post the
evidence a fourth time?
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: A QUESTION FOR WAYNE McGUIRE...
Date: 13 Dec 1992 23:18:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Why don't you consider American Jews to be American?
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Three troubling questions about Islam
Date: 12 Dec 92 08:24:12 GMT

<4649@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
 
>Now, in the case of the U.S. and Australia, both indiginous peoples have
>also been oppressed too.  Does that mean that you would not support the
>rights that have been delegitimized?

	The American Indians indeed lost their land to
	European invaders.  They deserve to see justice
	done.  That doesn't mean they have the right
	to creep into Camp Pendleton and slit 
        the throats of sleeping US marines.  

	Nazi Germany took the lives of my mother's
	family and confiscated their property.  I
	would like to see justice done. But 
	the last time I was in Germany, I stabbed nary
	a single German soldier.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 20 Dec 1992 22:44:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


John Elghani writes...


#If Syria occupied Tel Aviv, and this soldier happned to be a syrian
#kidnapped by jews asking  for the release of Shamir, then executed,  
#you woldn't have a problem with that, right?  ADMIT IT.
#
#jle


    I admit no such thing.  And your suggesting that I might ever
    tolerate such an act, let alone support it, is the reverse of
    the truth.

    That would be murder.  Period.  And it was murder in the case
    of Toledano.  Such deaths cannot be justified.  Take the case
    of Sheik Obied(please forgive my possible misspelling).   The
    Israelis are responsible for his total well-being.  If he was
    killed while in custody, that would be murder.  I am a person
    of principle.  While I worry about the safety and security of
    Israel, I do not sanction murder.  And while I think that the
    Sheik is nothing but a fundamentalist homicidal phony, hiding
    in cleric's robes, there is no justification for murdering an
    individual while in custody.  Toledano was murdered.  And the
    deportees are sworn to commit such acts themselves.   Members
    of HAMAS have taken an oath to kill Jews.  
    
    As stated in HAMAS pamphlet no. 65, distributed in October of 
    1990, 
    
           "Every Jewish settler is an occupier, 
            and it is our obligation to kill him."
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Yassir Arafat Insane?
Date: 18 Dec 92 23:43:13 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec16.015505.14053@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@ash.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>From today's Israeline:
>Syrian Deputy President Says Yasser Arafat Lost his Sanity
>
>Today's YEDIOT AHRONOT quotes the Italian newspaper "Il-Jiornale"
>which published an interview yesterday with Syrian Deputy President
>Abdel Halim Hadam, the man considered "number two" in Syria. Hadam
>said in the interview that he is convinced that PLO Chief Yasser
>Arafat has lost his sanity. "I have the impression, that following
>the plane accident, Arafat lost his sanity..." Hadam said that
>Arafat's claim that parts of the Golan Heights belong to the
>Palestinians constitutes the final proof of his madness.

>What took everybody so long?  I have been claiming he lost his mind
>when he hugged Saadam Hussein & Mohmar Quaddafi with the whole world 
>watching.  Many people have been claiming this for years.  



And of course Israel believes everything from Hafiz Assad - or is
this just further propoganda to feed Israeli interests?

Does this have anything to say about Israel - when they want to
negotiate with someone like Assad for the Golan Heights?  What
speculations can be made on the sanity of a person who has murdered
thousands of people and imprisoned and tortured hundreds of thousands
more?  Well, they say birds of a feather flock together ...

Anisa
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 18 Dec 1992 07:20:24 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <23076@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

|> Also, it was Mr. Perlman who "raised" me to 2.  I cannot help but notice
|> that his final inspection of the New Republic revealed that even they
|> could find only ONE (1).  And that one was from well over a year ago.
|> Pretty weak evidence for Mr. Perlman's claim itself, wouldn't you agree?

Ok, you need another one? This one i s old, I'll give you that, but here 
goes. Back in 78/79 when we lived in Syria/Israel (UN) we always used to 
stop in Jericho, when going from Damascus to Jerusalem.
In Jericho there lived a falafel man, who had a thriving business right 
by the road. We bought our falafel, chatted some, and went on.
He was very outspoken against the Israelis, and pro-palestinian.
(If he got going about how he lived as a youth, before the wars, there
was no end of it..)
He would not refuse any Israeli soldier waiting for transport a meal,
but there would never be any talking, and absolutely not haggling about 
the price, or bakshees, as for us kids. :-)
My impression is that this was (you can see it coming, right?) _not_
the material for a collaborator.
He was however complaining about the increased cost of living, paying 
for 'protection' etc. (Seems that there was no police to talk about in
Jericho, only military people passing by, and the local 'law enforcement'
agency.. )
One day when we stopped the shop was closed, and a while later we learned
that he had been shot in the head one night, presumably for cooperation
with the Israelis. Like he had any choice but to sell food when people
antered his shop? Give me a break!
That incident alone made me wary of PLO as a 'people's' organisation.
And it made me very reluctant to accept the 'judgement' of these death-
squads that see to it that the Palestinians keep in line.

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 09:17:52 IST
From: Uri Zakai <RPR1ZAK@TECHNION.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: definitions - palestinian style

have you all noticed the constant changes in basic palestinian terms ?

when our soldiers patrol the streets of gaza and the west bank - according to
the palestinians they are acting against civilians -and they not at war.

when the palestinians kidnapp one of our soldiers - they claim its not a
kidnapping but taking a POW   , since they are in a war .

when they cowerdly excute that soldier - well then again they are not at war
(nobody excutes POW's).

now i expect ill get many counter-examples in which palestinians were
harmed by israelis - but remmber - israel doesnt harm the prisoners it takes
, and if such things happen they are considerd as wrong - and the soldiers
that commited that act are sent to prison.
in anyway such acts are considerd wrong by israeli's.
i didnt hear no arab-sympathizer calling the murder of the israeli soldier
an anything wrong

so what is it :are we at war or arent we ?

think well - remember what that answear means
you can no longer hold the stick from both sides.

uri zakai
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel's future
Date: 17 Dec 92 04:17:51 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Josh Backon

 JB> Do you know what it takes to get a building permit in Israel????
 JB> What takes one day in America takes 6  months here.

This is another issue of significance: Israel's addiction to
discredited socialist ideas, statism, and rampant bureaucratitis.
Despite repeated promises to privatize its economy, Israel has
made little progress in opening up its society to free market
forces.

Israel has four major problems on its plate: reducing the power
of religious nationalists, jettisoning socialism, abandoning the
military occupation and working out a decent living arrangement
with the Palestinians, and weaning itself off gargantuan
infusions of American aid. Achieving the status of the world's
supreme schnorrer state is not what the founders of Zionism had
in mind for Israel when they started their program.

Unless Israel can solve these problems real soon, I don't think
it, or Zionism, has much of a realistic future. Americans in
particular are fast losing patience in dealing with this mess. We
have other priorities, domestically and worldwide.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  In two words: im-possible.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: News from the Israeli press
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:02:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.203939.17433@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.172509.14636@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
>>not to educate them in their people's heritage, just as, say, Mexican-
>>Americans do their children a disservice if they don't teach them of
>>their history, culture, and the like.
>
>But I never heard a Mexican-American saying that Mexican-Americans should
>only marry other Mexican-Americnas.
>
>
>>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
>
>AAP

No, but Catholics do tell their children not to marry non-Catholics.  I
guess the only difference is that there are many nations where Catholics
are a majority, but only 1 where Jews are a majority.
-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Wayne On Fundamentalism and Dialogue
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:31:35 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

Wayne writes:

>>I've found that Americans in general, and Christians and Muslims
>>in particular, have little problem in addressing the problems of
>>Christian and Muslim fundamentalism.   They are not hot button
>>issues. Jewish fundamentalism is an entirely different matter.
>>I've encountered many Jews who regard any criticism of Jewish
>>fundamentalism as an attack on all of Judaism and on all Jews. 

Wayne, this holds true for a very narrow experience base: yours.

One of the principle tenents of Judaism is *zachor* "remember."
That is why our central text, the Torah, is a history of a people
and their experiences.  This tradition continues all they way
throught the Prophets, the Hagiographia, the Mishna, the Talmud,
and the responsa literature.

You live in an place and a time where Christian and Muslim
fundamentalism are not a threat to you, or to those whom you
have polled to put together the opinion you've expressed.

To my mind, most Americans despise Muslim fundamentalism as
represented by Ayatolah Khomeini and now by Lebanese Shia
factions, etc.  I don't agree with the shallow understanding
that precedes this American sentiment, but neither can I
condone the principles on which Islamic fundamentalism is
based.

As for Christian fundamentalism, look at the implosion of the
Republican party for an example of Americans' casual handling
of the dialogue surrounding this issue.  More ominously, look
at the penetration of the CIS states by U.S. televangelical
programming, and the sudden conversion of Edward Sheverdnaze.
It's a serious problem, given the unstability there.

Jews have a strong tradition of considering such issues in
the light of a well-preserved historical knowledge about the
course of civilizations.

Nu, comsitz... lernen!
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Center for Policy Research
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:14:36 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70


I think it's about time Mr Davidsson came clean on what the
Center for Policy Research is:  it's constitution, sponsors,
affiliations, and so on.  From my experience, organizations
with such uninformative names are usually fronts for something.

I'm not saying he should stop posting; t.p.m has been less
boring since he arrived (which says nothing about the quality).

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast