From: tel002@dunix.drake.edu (Tim "Spock" Larson)
Subject: Re: bards
Keywords: bards killers
Organization: Drake University, Des Moines, Iowa, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:48:41 GMT

In article <1gb26lINNd72@crcnis1.unl.edu> pmenard@cse.unl.edu (Patrick Menard) writes:
>has anyone noticed that each of the books in the PHBR series (those nifty class
>and race books) seem to be adding more and more power to the game.(by comparison
>to previous books)  In 1st edition, things were ok with just the basic stuff
>then got outrageous with the addition of unearthed arcana.  It seems the same
>trend is being taken with our wonderful 2nd edition.
>
>First of all, I used to like bards as described in the PHB.  They were really
>fun and yet the game had some balance to it.  Then you add dual-class and multi-
>class characters and things get a little out of whack. Lo and behold they come
>out with kits for single-class characters and the world is saved again.  First
>the fighter book came out with good kits.(but we really didn't know what was
>to come in the future or we wouldn't have thought them so good) Finally the
>thieves book came out and the prior books paled by comparison.  

You're right.  The Dwarf and the Bard books are particularly out of whack.
For one thing, they give away entirely too many free NWP.  I require the
dwarves to take that endurance at first level instead of getting it for free.
I also cut the free bard profs down to the 2 that are MOST defining to the
kit.

>
>Compare two similar kits from two different classes, the Swashbuckler.  They
>both get a +2 reaction vs opposite sex, no disadvantages (trouble seeks him/her
>out??? get real!), and both use Fencing weapons.  The fighter gets a -2 to
>armor class and a free specialization in one weapon.  The thief gets to fight
>as a fighter with one fencing weapon and gets to disarm.  Well, at first level
>things are ok, the fighter fights better and the thief is sneakier.  But one
>thing they forgot is that thieves advance faster and soon will attack better
>than a fighter with the same amount of experience.  This and being able to 
>sneak around and backstab for even more damage.  The fighter gets more hit
>points.  Hmmmmm, by comparison I think the Thief has more than a little bit
>of an edge.

Just change it to "swashbuckling thief attacks as priest of same level with
his chosen weapon".  That oughta fix it.

>
>Now think of this, the dwarf book comes along and introduces multiclass
>character kits.  hmmmmm, well, maybe that makes more people want to play
>dwarves so thats ok.  then.......the Bard's book comes out.
>
>and the universe quakes under the new influx of music in the world.....

See my response up above.  The Dwarf and the Bard kits MUST be toned down to
be fair.  (The vindicator ftr/priest and the battlerager are the worst
offenders.  Of course I've never seen them played at high levels...I anticipate
that their tendency to attack anything that angers them will get them in
trouble enough to make the character about par with others.)

>
>First none of the kits for any of the other kits give as much as those of the
>Bard.  Many of them would be excellent as kits for other classes as they should
>be there already(Blade-fighter...Jongleur/Riddlemaster/Gipsy-thief...Loremaster-
>mage)  In the case of a Jongleur, its a better acrobat than a Thief with the
>Acrobat kit! (kind of defeats the purpose of the Acrobat kit huh?)
>
>Second, bards can now be multiclassed.  This was avoided in the PHB as bards
>were taken to be "jack-of-all-trades" and as such took a bit from all classes
>anyway.  This in itself throws in a great imbalance as now a fighter can
>multiclass with a bard and gain spells and some thief abilities so why waste
>time being a fighter-thief-mage when a fighter-bard advances as fast as a 
>fighter-thief and gets spells to boot!
>
>Third, to make matters worse, Multiclassed Bards can take Bard kits.  Why
>be merely a Thief (Acrobat) when you can be a Thief-Bard(Jongleur) and do
>everything better at all levels.  the Thief-jongleur is a better acrobat,
>gets more thief points (60 from thief and 40 from Bard (plus 30 from thief
>and 20 from Bard per level)) and spells. so you advance half as fast, you are
>better than the thief at first level.(better than a second level thief actually)
>and you actually get bonuses to skills as a Bard also.

Easy enough.  Don't allow bards to multi-class with thieves.  According to
the PH you can't multi-class with a class in the same category (bard/thief =
rogue/rogue multi-class....not allowed).  If you DO want to allow it, I'd
go like hit points for those thief points...you only get half the amount for
raising a level in either class.  (Note:  bards only get 15 discretionary
points per level after first, and they only get 20 at first...and they only
get 4 of the thief skills, remember.)

>
>Well, the question isn't what kind of Class will you be or what race will you
>be.  Now the question to ask is, What color hair will your Half-Elf Bard be?
>
>I can't wait until the elf book comes out, just think the elf Archer-Ranger
>class.(Ranger-Thief with the special elf Archer kit giving +1 to hit with
>a bow, per level and about 8 free non-weapon proficiency slots and the ability
>to see invisible things and to fire behind you and mentally direct your arrows
>flight so it hits things in front of you and.......(use your imagination, it'll
>probably be in there))
>
>I guess there will be a new saying among the realms.
>"look on the horizon, 50,000 orcs are coming, we'll all die!!!"
>"don't worry, we have more than enough Bards to handle the problem"
>
>Shadow
>(flames welcome, I'm short on cash this month so I can use the free heat)
>
I love to play bards since the book came out and my bard can be a specialist
in certain areas rather than being such a "jack-of-all-trades".  I didn't like
the original bard.  I like the ones that CAN do all those things, but are
just BETTER at some of them.  It's much the same way I never play a plain
mage (unless he's multiclassed with something) if my scores qualify me for
one of the specialists.  However, I am the first one to admit the bard book
is overdone and needs to be toned down.  My modifications are to take away
two of those freebie NWP and make it illegal to multi-class with thief (as
the PH said in the first place).  The thing I like the most about the book is
the demi-human bards...it makes sense they should have their own type of
oral historian/musician/whatever...but it's definitely not the True Bard from
the PH.
The same goes for the Dwarf book.  Don't play it that way just cuz T$R says
so.  It's your duty as a good DM, or as a good player, to make things fair.

I hope this helps y'all.

Tim
TEL002@acad.drake.edu

 


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd