HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Could Charlottetown happen in the US?
Keywords: Charlottetown, US
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:18:19 GMT

In article <farenebt.719194983@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Bri Farenell ("Droopy")) writes:
>I am relatively familiar with the Charlottetown accord
>(for an American anyways). Anyways, I was wathcing last
>night a CBC special on the week (?) in which the Charlottetown
>treaty was negotiated and I thought the whole process was
>fascinating. I was amazed how civil the premiers were to
>each other. Bourrassa, Rae, Obeid Mercredi all seemed civil
>to each other even despite their differences. I realize that
>there was some animosity like Clyde Wells and the Manitoba
>PM (I only saw the last 45 minutes of it though) but all in
>all, you didn't hear much part rhetoric. Being an American,
>I was expecting a process like that to be acrimonious and
>squabblesome but they all acted like leaders... something we
>Americans sorely lack. I honestly doubt that anything the
>magnitude of a new constitution could ever be worked out
>with such foresitght and leadership given the present
>state of American politics. I waz certainly impressed
>with Canadians. (although I still hate your hockey :)

I beg to differ...the first ministers are making issues constitutional
ones that should properly be legislated first.  Charlottetown is an
exercise in avoiding dealing with problems.  The Quebec sovereignty
issue can be dealt with in a referendum.  If there is need for some
constitutional modification, the various governments should have elections
for and charge a constituent assembly to come up with proposals, while
they get on with the business of governing.

Charlottetown fails to solve every problem it was allegedly supposed to
solve...it doesn't solve the Quebec problem, it will make Western
alienation worse because it entrenches the underrepresentation of the
most dynamic part of the country, and it will make our aboriginal
problems worse, (because aboriginals will soon realize that they
have been snookered).

Gerald
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: What if it's No-No?
From: brycerw@brandonu.ca
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:25:40 CST
 <1992Oct9.150722.15371@news.columbia.edu> <1992Oct9.193210.24603@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

In article <1992Oct9.193210.24603@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
> In article <1992Oct9.150722.15371@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>>clarinews@clarinet.com ((Marshall-GLOBE/Standard Broadcast News)) writes
>>in clari.canada.gov,clari.canada.general:
>>>
>>>	(TORONTO) Here is the breakdown by region for this morning's Globe
>>>and Mail poll on the October 26th referendum.
>>>	
>>>	The question asked was: ''Do you agree that the Constitution of
>>>Canada should be renewed on the basis of the agreement reached on August
>>>28th, 1992?''
>>>	
>>>	REGION........... YES......... NO.......... UNDECIDED... OTHER
>>>	
>>>	B.C.............. 34.......... 51.......... 13.......... 3
>>>	Prairies......... 47.......... 41.......... 11.......... 1
>>>	Ontario.......... 44.......... 37.......... 16.......... 4
>>>	Quebec........... 27.......... 54.......... 14.......... 5
>>>	Atlantic......... 52.......... 33.......... 14.......... 1
>>>	
>>>	All of Canada.... 40.......... 43.......... 14.......... 3
>>
>>[n.b., I believe that proper attributionss have been made above for
>>use of this data for my article.]
>>
>>Okay folks, so far we've been talking about the ramifications of
>>Yes-Yes and Yes-No in the referendum for (Canada - Quebec) and 
>>Quebec, respectively (using set notation (-;) ... what about No-No?
>>
>>Seems that it'd come out as a united country to me ... (-;
>>
> 
> The triple NO scenario...a Quebec NO, a BC-Alta-Man NO, and an overall
> NO is the only way the country is going to come out of this thing
> unified.  A double NO...a Quebec NO, and one Western NO, might be
> almost as good.
> 
> With Quebec opposition, Western opposition, and growing aboriginal
> opposition, the whole fraudulent basis of this abomination is being
> slowly revealed.  Charlottetown fails every test of its raison d'etre...
> it is failing to solve the problem of Quebec, the problem of Western
> alienation, and the problems of aboriginal Canadians.  On top
> of that, it recklessly decentralizes the country on the basis of
> empire-building by provincial premiers, rather than on the basis
> of how can we build a better federation; it diminishes individual
> and democratic rights; and it imperils our economic future.
> 
> That the people of Canada are seriously considering the Accord and
> not falling for the expensive appeals to a false patriotism and fear
> from the YES side is justifying/restoring my faith in democracy.
> 
> We may save Canada yet...from the Charlottetown Deconfederation
> Agreement...and it will be done by the Canadian people telling
> our cowardly power-grubbing elites to shove it.
> 
> For the love of Canada (and Quebec), and our future together or
> as neighbors....vote NO/NON!
> 
> Gerald

Couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
Robert
From: silatman@hls.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Nationwide Demo for Bosnia,Fri Oct16
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:43:39 GMT
From: silatman@hls.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: NATIONWIDE DEMO FOR BOSNIA [Fri,Oct 16]
Date: 8 Oct 92 11:26:07 PST
Organization: 



                 NATIONWIDE DEMO TO STOP GENOCIDE IN BOSNIA!

                             FRIDAY, OCT. 16, 1992.


       All people of conscience are encouraged to join in a nationwide
       demonstration [to be held in United States and Canada] to bring
       attention to the situation in Bosnia, so that serious efforts
       can be made to stop the genocide of MUSLIMS and CATHOLICS in
       that region of the world.

       Please take some time out on Friday, October 16 to join
       in your local group. You may contact the people listed below
       for more information:

       The demo will be held in over 70 cities in US and Canada.

       #.     Phone no.          Name.
       --     ---------          -------

       1.  313-743-0680    Dr. Haytham Al-Midani.
           313-732-8883    same, in East Lansing, Michigan.
       2.  718-658-1199    Zahid Bukhari, New York City.
       3.  510-527-3283    Malik Alvi, Berkeley/San Francisco, Calif.
       4.  408-926-8720    Abdul Sattar Rydhan, San Jose, Calif.
       5.  703-750-9807    Yassir Bushnaq, Washington DC.
       6.  708-335-0639    Abdul Malik Mujahid, Chicago, Ill.
       7.  713-975-0768    Masroor Khan, Houston, Texas.
       8.  708-547-8012    Ikram Hussain, Bellwood, Ill.
       9.  301-431-2647    Abu al-Qasim, Langley Park, Maryland.
       10. 215-222-5539    Sulaiman Syed, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
       11. 714-557-8675    Sakib Sokolovich [Bosnian], Los Angeles, Calif.
       12. 201-585-8128    Waheed Khalid, Teaneck, New Jersey.
       13. 904-785-6048    Dr. Riaz Albibi, Panama City, Florida.
       14. 306-757-6688    Anwaar ul-Haq, CANADA.

      Please contact your local representatives for exact schedule.
TV and media are invited to cover the event. The above fourteen
persons are some of the organizers. You can get phone numbers of
other organizers in other cities from the above listed people.
The demo will be in over 70 cities in the North American continent.

      GOOD PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS ARE INVITED TO JOIN US!

      GOD BLESS!
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:7276 can.politics:8178
From: uctlxpd@ucl.ac.uk (Peter Bartlett)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: I was going to vote yes, BUT NOW ....
Date: 8 Oct 92 10:13:58 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

huots00@DMI.USherb.CA (SYLVAIN HUOT) writes:

>--> Francophone senators.

>Francophone senators is different of Quebec senators.

>Anyone that say "Je suis francophone" will be considered a 
>"Francophone senator" ????

Actually, no, not exactly; but you're right, it's pretty iffy.  The draft
says:  "On entering the Senate, Senators should be required to declare
whether they are Francophones for the prupose of the double majority 
voting rule.  Any process for challenging these declarations should be
left to the rules of the Senate."

Whatever that means...

Trust that clarifies it all ... ;)

peter.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Registration for the Referendum from outside the country
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Oct8.182212.9967@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 04:15:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.182212.9967@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross) writes:

   gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit) writes:
   : cpaulse@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Chris D Paulse) writes:
   : 
   : >How do I register for the referendum from here in Ohio?
   : 
   : Can Canadians residing outside Canada (even permanently) also vote 
   : in this referendum?

   I've heard that Quebecers residing abroad can vote in the referendum, but 
   other non-resident Canadians cannot.  You should consult a Canadian consulate 
   to find out for certain.

This is true, but the deadline for former Quebec residents to register
to vote by mail has passed.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: TO ALL CANADIAN WHO LIVE IN TORONTO!!
Date: 9 Oct 1992 12:32:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I was in Toronto last week and found it to be more pleasant than
most American cities...(what's this guy's problem..)
-- 
Ted....
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: A Lack of Glue
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:18:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bw4tzF.B9E.1
	<fe5B02dI25zP01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <fe5B02dI25zP01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jpd10@ccc.amdahl.com (Michael Surkan) writes:

   Although I read all about my Canadian heritage, the founding of New
  France, the building of the transcontinental railway, and the
  valiant men who fought in the great wars, I never did understand
  just what a Canadian was. We were a "humane" people I was told by my
  teachers. We didn't have the crime or social injustices that was
  manifest amongst those "barbarians" to the south. Nether did we have
  legends of any Howard Hughes or Douglas Macarthur's steeped in myth
  to captivate my imagination and inspire me. As I got older, the only
  evidence I saw of the great Canadian vision of the social contract
  was the high cost of pumping gas into my car, and vast chunks of my
  income that Revenue Canada extracted to pay for people who would
  work only long enough to qualify for UIC. The message that I had a
  "responsibility" to maintain Canada's unique identity, with
  multi-cultures (and two languages) rang hollow.  Some may say that
  Canada is better off without ungrateful sods such as I. I can't help
  but think, however, that a young energetic computer programmer has a
  lot to offer. So far, life in the barbaric land of the Eagle has
  been grand.  Although I like it here, I will keep tuning in to "As
  it Happens" and reading my Maclean's magazines dreaming of what
  could have been.

Scant few countries in the world have been created with a vision.
The United States, the USSR, Israel, perhaps Switzerland, are the only
examples I can think of offhand.  The remainder of the countries have
been founded on nationalistic/ethnic or geographic grounds.

Canada, although an immigrant nation like its neighbour to the South,
has not had some philosophical ideal as a unifying force.  The lack of
such an ideal does not mean that people cannot identify with Canada,
nor that they cannot have a love of nation.

You seem to have left (like many Canadians over the centuries) for
pure economic reasons, not because Canada does not worship its
Generals.


--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: ibcdek@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Daniel E. Kinsey)
Subject: Proposal for new user group on international trade
Summary: The Regents Global Center serves 34 colleges in the University
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:39:56 GMT

The Regents Global Center serves 34 colleges in the University of
Georgia system in the areas of international faculty, student programs 
and international business/trade.  We are proposing a new user group
for the above subjects, especially with regard to our efforts in
Canada.  For any comments or suggestions, please respond to Dan Kinsey
at the RGC.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:17:02 EDT
From: John G. Spragge <SPRAGGEJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Medicine & Liberty
 <BvG7vE.n56@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
 <1992Oct1.163940.13330@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
 <672V02FN24nn01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>

In article <672V02FN24nn01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, jpd10@ccc.amdahl.com (Michael
Surkan) says:

>  So far all the reasons I have given for my dislike of
>social medicine are moral ones.

Well, I can't exactly argue with that; I completely disagree with you,
but as long as you are willing to let me have medicare, I certainly
have no wish to force it on you.

However, you might want to consider this: almost every argument you
make against medicare could also be made against public fire protection.
Like health care, the fire department used to be run by private insurance
companies that only protected the properties they insured. Even more than
medicare, the public fire department aggressively (and intrusively)
pursue programs of fire prevention (tried installing a wood stove lately?).

If you resent medicare, do you resent the fire department? If not, why not?
Has it ever occurred to you that the two are essentially the same (private
functions taken over by the government)? If it hasn't, why do you think
it has not?

>  In my opinion, if we left everything to the individual
>such questions society wouldn't have to deal with these
>issues. If someone can afford the treatment, they get it, if
>not, well let's hope there's a heaven.

If money becomes so completely a matter of life and death, what does
that do to crimes like theft and fraud? If someone who (say) lost it
all in the stock market because of Michael Milliken's (illicit) schemes
dies because they couldn't pay for medical care, does the case call
for the penalty for murder?

Make personal wealth that important, and you open a big can of worms.

>                                       I left Canada because
>I couldn't stand the encroachment on freedom and it looks
>like the USA is trying very hard to destroy what is left of
>it here. In my dreams I think of a land where a man can
>truly be free again. Perhaps Hong Kong?

I hope you find what you're looking for. I certainly wouldn't
want your "freedom" (for more social/moral/religious/philosophical
and personal reasons than I can list here), but there's enough
room on the planet for both of us.

Perhaps you could simply head up into the hills. In the more remote
valleys of the average mountain range, you can find a good few
rugged individualists who don't use money (the government SAYS they
tax barter, but when it comes to the point, the task is beyond most
bureaucrat's abilities), and with whom the powers that be don't
usually interfere. Hong Kong is probably out; when China takes it
over, freedom will be relegated strictly to matters of (external)
trade.
>
>                     Michael Surkan

disclaimer: Queen's University supplies me with computer services, not
            my opinions.

John G. Spragge
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: 890758k@ace.acadiau.ca (WING HO KWAN)
Subject: testing3
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 20:11:38 GMT

testing 
**********************************************************************
*	if (!love) || (!faith) || (!hope) || (!WORKS)        	     *
*	       dead ()				                     *
*	else ;						             *
*		                                  From  Louie Kwan   *
*			                                   copyright *
**********************************************************************
*			890758k@dragon.acadiau.ca                    *
**********************************************************************
From: hatton@socrates.ucsf.edu (Tom Hatton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: TO ALL CANADIAN WHO LIVE IN TORONTO!!
Date: 11 Oct 92 01:18:17 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes:
>In article <hatton.718701876@cgl.ucsf.edu>, hatton@socrates.ucsf.edu (Tom Hatton)     writes...
>>migod@turing.toronto.edu (Mike Godfrey) writes:

>>P.S. Living in the US for a few years has revealed that not all Americans
>>are like L.G., but far too many are.

>I'm English, living in England

And you have the gall to call *Toronto* cold! <Peals of laughter>
Last I was in London, it snowed. In May.

And in any case, my point stands - too many Americans have a similar
attitude, but I'll allow now that we have a data point for England.

Tom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: smith@gramian.harvard.edu (Steven Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Individual Rights in the U.S. Constitution
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:41:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: gramian.SMITH.92Oct15084144
	<1992Oct14.134230.2786@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
	<1992Oct14.185857.25295@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Oct14.205017.11679@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
Distribution: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Organization: Harvard Robotics Lab, Harvard University

cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne) writes:

> Thus the Constitution did not define citizen when originally
> written.  The 14th Amendment did, however, define citizen as all
> persons born or naturalized in the United States.  If a state
> denied voting to any "person" over 21 years of age, they lost
> representation in Congress.

Only when the right to vote is denied to male inhabitants (citizens,
21 yrs), and only a proportion of representaion is reduced.


robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins) writes:

> If the 14th Amendment clarified what a citizen was, ie all persons
> born or naturalized in the US, why the need for the 15th/19th etc
> Amendments?  Are they not redundant?  Or were slaves and women not
> considered persons?

All persons born or naturalized in the U.S. were citizens.  Not all of
them had the right to vote.

> (My point here is that the 14th Amendment should have been adequate to
> use the courts to enforce the constitutional rights of all citizens, in
> that citizen was finally defined.)

The Fourteenth Amendment was very clear about who could not be denied
the vote.  That's why the Nineteenth was necessary to provide (near)
universal adult suffrage.


By the way, I just posted a copy of the Constitution (in TeX).  You
can read all of this for yourself.

Steven Smith
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Subject: Re: Why can't I vote?
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:21:30 GMT

In article <1052@clbull.frcl.bull.fr> dekoning@frcl.bull.fr (Gerard de Koning) writes:
>The information I received from the Canadian embassy in Paris, is as follows:
>
> Canadians, who come from Quebec and are temporarily living abroad, 
> may vote in the referendum.
>
> Canadians, who come from the rest of Canada and are temporarily living abroad,
> may NOT vote in the referendum.
>
>Apparently, this has something to do with provincial referendum legislation
>taking precedence and Quebec was the only jurisdiction to remember those
>living abroad.
>
>If this is correct, this is totally unacceptable.  For a national referendum,
>all Canadians should have an equal right to participate.  And for a long-term
>issue, such as the constitution, those Canadians who expect be return to Canada
>have as much interest as anyone in the future of the our country.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Gerard de Koning                    Email:  G.deKoning@bull.com
>Bull, rue Jean-Jaures,              Phone:  33-1-30.80.70.25
>78340 Les Clayes sous Bois, France    Fax:  33-1-30.80.70.78
>---------------------------------------------------------------

En fait, c'est acceptable si on examine les faits:

le Quebec devait faire un referendum (loi 150) et fera un referendum,
meme si la question n'est pas celle prevue initialement.

le Canada ne devait pas faire de referendum, mais pour encourager les
Quebecois a voter OUI (je ne vois pas d'autre raison puisque si le
Quebec vote NON, le vote du Canada n'a aucune signification), le Canada
a decide de faire son propre referendum.  Pour des raisons de commodites
(pour ne pas perdre la face en faisant un referendum rendu totalement
inutile apres un NON du Quebec et pour ne pas "influencer" le vote
au Quebec en votant avant, le Canada a decide de voter en meme temps.
Pour bien montrer que le Canada est pret a agir pour reduire le
dedoublage couteux des services (meme en gaspillant 2 milliards de $),
il a accepte de ne pas tenir de vote au Quebec.

Par hasard, les regles du vote quebecois ne sont pas les memes que celles
du vote canadien.  Mais, ce sont deux votes differents et meme
independants.  Si j'habitais dans l'ouest et que la victoire du NON au
Quebec serait connue avant de voter, je n'irais meme pas voter.  Mais,
pour permettre d'analyser le vote, il faut quand meme que tout le monde vote.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste des familles : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===  Non a une entente au contenu indetermine'   Mon opinion ? Non !
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada