HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Help for F-PC and TCOM
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:33:39 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 7,  Topic 35
Message 31        Wed Jan 20, 1993
ELLIOTT.C                    at 18:09 EST
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board -
 USR Dual Standard 16.8K  (416) 629-7000

 Date: 01-10-93 (12:15)
   To: ALL
 From: M SIMON
 Subj: PROGRAMMING PROBLEM FPC

 I tried the following program which I cribbed from the files
 included with FPC (PDP-8 stuff). It does not open a file which is
 known to reside in the same directory as FPC. No error message is
 returned. HOPEN indicates success opening the file. I am stumped.


 M. Simon / Space-Time Productions
 3124 Meriday    Suite 103
 Rockford, Illinois 61109
 [ 815 ]  874-2296

 /// this space for lend, lease, sale, rent, or time \\\


 handle ofile      \ output file handle

 : ofile-msg       cr  ." Enter filename: "     cr  ;
 : open-err-msg    cr  ." Can't find source file. "   cr    ;
 : retry-msg       cr  ." Hit any key to retry. "     cr  ;


 \ string input function
 40 constant max_length
 create str-buf  max_length allot
 : clr-str-buf str-buf max_length erase ;


 : length-s    ( adr --- count )
         max_length  0
         do dup i + c@ 0=
               if i leave
               then
         loop swap drop ;


 \ get user input string and store as counted string at addr
 : accept    ( addr n  ---  )
         clr-str-buf
         over 1+ dup rot
         expect length-s
         swap c! ;


 : input-filename
          str-buf
          40 accept ;


 : abort-key      ( --- )
         key drop  ;


  : get_ofile_name  ( --- )
         ofile
         clr-hcb
         ofile-msg
         input-filename
         str-buf
         ofile
         $>handle
   ;



 : open_ofile    ( --- f )
         ofile
         hopen
         if
            cr open-err-msg
            cr retry-msg
            abort-key
            false
         else
            true
         then
   ;


 : GET-FILE  ( --- f )
        get_ofile_name
        open_ofile
 ;

           Thanks for the help,
           M. Simon

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for
 Forth! ---
  * The GrapeVine/Ferret Face BBS * NLR,ARK * 501-753-8121 DS *
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Forth stack checker
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 22:00:10 GMT

In article <1jv25pINNobc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bs764@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Fred H Olson) writes:
>My approach is to build a special purpose interpreter/compiler and hence
>the source code becomes it's "input data" and it's hard to anticipate
>all possible data permutations that get thrown at it.

There's the unfortunate part - Forth contains some features that are
by their nature almost uncheckable.

You can create a special purpose "interpreter" that will understand
SOME Forth code, but not enough to make it a general tool.
CREATE/DOES is going to be some of the words that would make such an
interpreter "throw its hands up in despair."

>As a consequence I have dispaired of try to get it used more widely,
>an am content to have a neat tool that I do use.

The nice thing about FORTH is that it's not TOO hard to put some of
the type checking into words themselves.  It means that it may be
possible to do both compile and run time checking.

In effect, we've got the "best" of both worlds; there is the choice of
doing type checking any time we want.

-- 
Christopher Browne                |     PGP 2.0 key available
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca           |======================================
University of Ottawa              | Genius may have its limitations, but
Master of System Science Program  | stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Documenting/Adaptability @#%&
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:16:46 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <1993Jan21.082208.93@wronz.org.nz> mentink@wronz.org.nz writes:
>
>	I have been reading this section for months now and am rapidly
>being turned off by the inane bickering on the subjects of documentation
>and adaptability of Forth.

What is inane bickering to one is food for thought to another.

>
>Woudn't it be a far more productive ( and less painfull to the soul ) to
>swap ideas, help each other out on problems struck etc, than to put up with
>one or two individuals ( with little better to do ) flaming each other
>on the network?.

Wouldn't it be far more productive to discuss something Forth-related
that to try to censor a particular discussion in a USENET newsgroup?
(ESPECIALLY one that is actually RELATED to the newsgroup?)

Just because a particular thread or manner of discussion doesn't
appeal to you does not mean it doesn't appeal to others.  There were
more than 2 people involved in that specific discussion and it's
longevity MIGHT mean that it had something to communicate.  Probably
not (as with most USENET traffic), but what the hell... this is what
USENET is for...a FREE FLOW of ideas.

My news reader has a kill file, and I suggest you investigate yours.
If you want to spend time trying to tailor any particular newsgroup to just
the traffic you'de like to see... well, hell, go ahead.  It's
your time.

As I traipse across the wide expanse of near-meaningless
tripe that is USENET, I find everything from gun control discussed in 
computer groups to politics being discussed everywhere.  I have actually
found comp.lang.forth to be quite excellent in this regard... almost
100% of the messages actually deal with Forth.  SO how can you jump on any
one thread and declare it some kind of a problem?

>
>Come on 'gentlemen', gloves on the fists(mouths) please.

This surprises me because overall, I think the communications that
happen in c.l.f are some of the most respectful on the net.  I can't
remember the confrontation level ever really getting above "mild
argument".  C'mon, people!  Don't be put off by a little interaction.

I don't see name-calling or rumour-spreading in progress.  I don't
see grudges or even one constant ongoing personality clash.  I think
this is a pretty good group, and I certainly don't want to inhibit
creativity.  (That's probably why I love Forth).
From: johnch@test22.sun.com (Sam the Skank from Geezer)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: anyone get Tile forth to work?
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:48:43
Organization: Impossible Missions Force
Distribution: comp
NNTP-Posting-Host: test22
In-reply-to: johnch@test22.sun.com's message of 22 Jan 93 18:33:51


Thanks very much to everyone who responded.  Actually, it was PATH
that was set wrong.  I admit to pilot error, but I suppose it would be
nice if the README either mentioned running "which forth" or said,
"The following banner will appear when you invoke Tile forth: . . . ."
I'll try to be awake next time I compile something new.

-- jmc
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Recent FORTHs' guts (was: Documentation )
From: mentink@wronz.org.nz
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:43:12 +1300


	Ray Duncan writes,

>One of the reasons the surviving Forth vendors have concentrated
>on embedded systems is that this is one of the few market niches
>that has not been systematically destroyed by the FIG-public domain-
>hacker cabal.  Now that people like Ting are circulating atrocities
>like EFORTH, even the embedded systems market is dying. This is not
>a flame, it's just the sad truth.

Sounds like you are jealous at the SUCESS of eforth. Eforth was intended
to be a KERNAL that was easily transported to different processors and
environments. I have ported forth to the H8 micro in two weeks work,
spent one week adding extra features I wanted, then spent two weeks 
writing the application code for an embedded system. The system has been
running for months now (faultlessly) and since then I have written several
other applications. Sounds like a TOOL not an atrocity!


>It's certainly been clear to me from lurking in this newsgroup for
>months that *this* sector of the Forth community, although it
>prides itself on being a center of Forth expertise, has no clue
>whatsoever as to what the Forth vendors (Forth Inc., LMI, 
>Harvard Softworks, Vesta, Creative Solutions, etc.) have to offer
>or the capabilities of their systems.  Thus, newcomers to Forth,
>who come here for advice, are being steered to EFORTH, FPC, and
>other undocumented unstable unsupported public domain Forth systems
>as "solutions."  No wonder Forth is in decline!

And by what evidence do you regard EFORTH as unstable ? 

Bernie Mentink
Christchurch NewZealand.
email:mentink@wronz.org.nz


------- Never argue with fools; people might not know the difference -----
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Subject: History of Forth (Was: Documenting)
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:39:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.171538.29836@exu.ericsson.se>, exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague) writes:
|> >However, Chuck did write a paper on the origin of Forth for the
|> >upcoming History Of Programming Languages conference, but it was
|> >rejected because it was "too informal."  I don't know if the paper
|> >will be published elsewhere.
|> 
|> Sounds like something that would be well received.  I hope he will
|> consider attempting to get it published or at least distributing it
|> himself.  (Too informal?  Good grief.)

If you look at the advance program for HOPL-II, you will see that they
didn't accept that many papers, and only one per programming language.
There will be "The Evolution of Forth" by Rather, Colburn, and
(surprise) Moore. The language papers will be about Algol68, Pascal
(invited), Concurrent Pascal, Ada (invited), Lisp, Prolog (invited),
discrete event simulation languages, FORMAC, CLU, Smalltalk (invited),
Icon, Forth, C (invited) and C++.

BTW, Charles Moore published "The Evolution of Forth, an Unusual
Language" in the August 1980 Byte.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl                    Some things have to be seen to be believed
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: penev@venezia (Penio Penev)
Subject: Re: Documenting
Organization: Rockefeller University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 11:54:26 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Reply-To: penev@venezia.rockefeller.edu
X-Posted-From: venezia.rockefeller.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Mike Haas (mikeh@starnine.com) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan14.122149.16814@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> pazsan@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Bernd Paysan) writes:
: >|> Usre of blocks in no way increases one's efficiency.  In fact, it hinders it
: >|> because you have to develop all your own print software, backup software,
: >|> stuff that normal OS files live easy with.
: >
: >Per file backup should work. And to port print software you have already
: >is an easy task.
: 
: And write some that doesn't is less easy.  And to write a 'diff' utility
: for screens is even less easy.  Sooner or later, you're going to get
: to something that's hard!
: 
: Seriously, even DOS provides this stuff for text files.  Why have to
: re-invent it at all?  And when improved versions of DOS (or your text editor
: or print spooler or ... ) appear, you will benefit by default.

Well, DOS doesn't. It fails on the first inserted char.  But this is
not the point. I program in FORTH since 1985 and have never needed
such a utility. Sure, if I have needed it, I should have written one.
I wrote an (screen) editor, though. It was fun, easy and is the best
editor I've ever used. And the most portable editor I've ever used too.

: 
: >
: >|> It's a helluva lot easyier to insert a new function in the middle of
: >|> your program with files.
: >
: >bigFORTH:
: >Alt I and a new screen is inserted at the actual position. Alt D and one
: >is deleted. Even with long screen files it's fast on a HD.
: 
: Text files:
: Press RETURN and a new line is entered.  You don't have waste 1023
: characters to get that new line, either.
: 
: BTW, this idea of "inserting" a screen may apply to BigForth, but
: not in most of them.  In fact, it's those Forths that use
: screens-within-files that provide this capability.  And it's the
: fact that there's a FILE SYSTEM underneath that allows you to do this!

Well, the file system has nothing to do with it. When You insert a
screen You copy a block range one screen further. This You can do on
any BLOCK system. And text editors do the same. I've never seen an OS
function "isert bytes(blocks) at the file pointer". I know CPM, DOS &
UNIX. I may be wrong for the rest OSes.

: 
: Just go the next logical step and throw away the BLOCK layer.  There's
: no reason for it on file-based platforms, and it's continuance
: hurts Forth.
: 

Everybody may use whatever he wants, even BLOCKS. The questions is
whether BLOCKS vs. text files matters for having a good production
environment. I'm sure, that FORTH can be a good one with both. Perhaps
the experience of the companies using FORTH should sumarised in a
book to see the approaches. Surely all of the standard approaches will
work. The question is what is best suited to the particular needs. And
the answers is it depends on the needs. So no general solutions are
good. Some may be just OK.

-- Penio.

Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Documenting - blocks source to target
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:54:21 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <1ja4ogINNl1v@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bs764@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Fred H Olson) writes:
>
> 
>mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) in his article Re: Documenting
>dated Tue Jan 12 23:06:02 1993
> 
>quotes me:
>>>  One feature
>>>of such a system was that the host could filter the blocks before
>>>sending them -- not sending 'trailing spaces' or anything after a
>>>;S on a block for example.
> 
>Then mike goes on:
>>This is what kills me about blocks... the above fella used
>>-TRAILING when sending screens over a communications media,
>>adding extra code to both the SEND and RECEIVE routines
>>(the RECEIVEr has to put them back in, no?).
>>
>>Why is he not concerned about the terrible waste of disk
>>space that SCREENS cause?
> 
>No, the reciever does not have to put them back, the original
>article tried to clearly state that the target was *NOT* using
>serial disk emulation.
> 
>True, using blocks for source code takes a bit of extra space.
>The reason for using -TRAILING etc is to speed comunication time
>not save space. To save space on the disk, use something like
>PKZIP.  It will typically reduce text files by 50-60 percent,
>source code in blocks maybe 70-80 percent.

There's a major advantage of using text files instead of blocks...

It not only saves a tremendous amount of disk space over blocks, but
is still in a format that is interpretable...you don't have to
PKUNZIP it first.

But with some of the arguments I've witnessed here for BLOCKS, I wouldn't
be surprized if someone proposed coding PKUNZIP in the interpreter to
expand zipped SCEENS for interpretation.
> 
>Fred  (Internet: fred%jwh@vx.cis.umn.edu)
> 
>-- 


Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: Documenting/Adaptability @#%&
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 09:21:06 GMT

mentink@wronz.org.nz

> I have been reading this section for months now and am rapidly
> being turned off by the inane bickering on the subjects of
> documentation and adaptability of Forth.
>
> Woudn't it be a far more productive ( and less painfull to the
> soul ) to swap ideas,...

One example of good documentation techniques would probably be
more effective than several Mb's of bickering.  :)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: jwa@tellabs.com (John W. Albert)
Subject: DLL's
Organization: Tellabs, Lisle, IL
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 18:22:38 GMT

I'm using VB for Windows PDS.  I need a DLL that will allow to 
talk to a DSP board that's mapped at 608h on the expansion port.

I'm trying to write a data aquisition program that will display 
a data plot using a GUI or a second party library.  Is any one
familiar with DLL's?




Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: stevey@steve_sun.cs.adfa.oz.au (Steve Yang)
Subject:  "Printer selection from  VB for Windows 3.0"
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:19:43 GMT



==============================================================================
Help on  "Printer selection from  VB (Visual Basic) for MS Windows 3.0"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

How can I tell VB (Visual Basic, V 1.0)  to print out something on a different printer 

if there are two printers (LPT1 and LPT2) available on Miscrosoft Windows 3.0 

under Novel Netware Lite?


If you can help me, please mail me an example of VB code to me or whatever. 

Thank you very much..


Best Regards,

Steve Yang

-------------------------------------------------------
This is my E-mail address:      stevey@cs.adfa.oz.au

================================================================================
From: landay+@cs.cmu.edu (James A Landay)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
Subject: Re: is VB a VL?
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:47:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.C19wF0.BvA.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


Please, describe visual BASIC for us.  Even if it turns out to be a
visual language (which it probably is by Brad's definition), I am
not sure this is the appropriate place to ask for technical help
concerning visual BASIC.

In article <1828@eba.eb.ele.tue.nl> elkassas@ebs.eb.ele.tue.nl (sherif el kassas) writes:
>Hi all,
>Just wanted to ask:
>  Is Visual BASIC a visual programming language?
>
>Thanks,
>Sherif
>
>PS No flames intended.
>PPS The following is a definition of VLs based on [Myers, 1989].
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>A visual language is a language that allows its users to
>specify their constructs in two or more dimensions.
>Examples of such languages include: flowcharts and dataflow
>diagrams.
>
>@incollection{Mye,
> author = "Myers, B. A.",
> title = "The State of the Art in Visual Programming and Program Visualization",
> editor = "Kilgour, A. and Earnshaw, R.",
> Booktitle = "Graphics Tools for Software Engineers",
> publisher = "Cambridge University Press",
> year = "1989"
>}
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Sherif El-Kassas, elkassas@eb.ele.tue.nl         .       :.
>Digital Systems Group (EB), EH 11.29       \_____o__/ __________
>Eindhoven University of Technology,               .. /
>5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands.                 /


-- 

James A. Landay
landay@cs.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: ianst@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (Ian Staples)
Subject: Re: is VB a VL?
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 07:05:42 GMT

In article <C19wF0.BvA.2@cs.cmu.edu> landay+@cs.cmu.edu (James A Landay) writes:
>
>Please, describe visual BASIC for us.  Even if it turns out to be a
>visual language (which it probably is by Brad's definition), I am
>not sure this is the appropriate place to ask for technical help
>concerning visual BASIC.
>
I agree.  The places where one often finds stuff on VB are alt.lang.basic
and in the ms-windows groups.  I suspect VB is only "visual" in the sense
that it makes it easy to have all the nice windows, buttons, scroll-bars
etc. of Windows itself in your own Basic programs.


-- 
Ian Staples                       | Internet : ianst@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au
c/- P.O. Box 1054,                | Fax      : +61 (0)70 923 593
MAREEBA  Queensland  4880         | Voice    : +61 (0)70 921 555
Australia.                        | Home     : +61 (0)70 924 847
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
From: jet@cc.gatech.edu (Jeanette D. Allen)
Subject: Empirical Studies
Reply-To: jet@cc.gatech.edu (Jeanette D. Allen)
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:27:16 GMT

I am looking for references to empirical comparisons between
visual programming languages and textual programming languages.  
Do visual programming languages actually aid the programmer or
do they hinder the programmer. I am interested in experiments,
such as the work of Cunniff, Taylor, and Black. I am particularly 
interested in non-procedural languages.
 
Thank you.
Jeanette Allen
jet@cc.gatech.edu
"My very own Terminator. Wow." T2
From: elkassas@ebs.eb.ele.tue.nl (sherif el kassas)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
Subject: is VB a VL?
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:19:19 GMT
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

Hi all,
Just wanted to ask:
  Is Visual BASIC a visual programming language?

Thanks,
Sherif

PS No flames intended.
PPS The following is a definition of VLs based on [Myers, 1989].
-----------------------------------------------------------
A visual language is a language that allows its users to
specify their constructs in two or more dimensions.
Examples of such languages include: flowcharts and dataflow
diagrams.

@incollection{Mye,
 author = "Myers, B. A.",
 title = "The State of the Art in Visual Programming and Program Visualization",
 editor = "Kilgour, A. and Earnshaw, R.",
 Booktitle = "Graphics Tools for Software Engineers",
 publisher = "Cambridge University Press",
 year = "1989"
}
-----------------------------------------------------------


Sherif El-Kassas, elkassas@eb.ele.tue.nl         .       :.
Digital Systems Group (EB), EH 11.29       \_____o__/ __________
Eindhoven University of Technology,               .. /
5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands.                 /
From: jmains@engr.latech.edu (John P. Mains)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.visual
Subject: VB 2.0 and COM ports
Date: 25 Jan 1993 16:19:53 GMT
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: jmains@engr.latech.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: pulsar.engr.latech.edu


Hello,

How do you get visual basic to read from a com port or a parrallel port?

Thanx
JP
Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc
From: bazet@chailly.ensmp.fr (Philippe BAZET)
Subject: Adding Constraints to Automate Programming
Organization: /home/users/bazet/.organization
Distribution: comp
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:50:19

Hi net,


Let us consider a circular list. It can be defined by an ML-like data
type such as

	list 'a = nil | cons of 'a * list 'a ;

and the assertion:

	The last element for the list is the first one.

Does anyone know of programming systems in which such assertions can be
expressed formally and used at either run-time or compile-time?  I know
of Ait Kaci's LIFE which is mainly restricted to local structure
constraints.  

Thanks in advance,
Philippe Bazet.
e-mail: bazet@cri.ensmp.fr





Xref: sparky comp.lang.misc:4145 comp.specification:627