From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Absolute/Relative Morality [was: Re: 20/20 and Spanking]
Date: 8 Nov 92 18:52:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

[This got bounced the first time I tried to post it.
Perhaps the Net is trying to tell me something ... .]

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[Thanks for changing the subject line. My newsreader won't let me do it.]

In <LOWRY.92Nov4145319@rotor.watson.ibm.com>
lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:

>You're absolutely correct that arguments can be twisted

... by which you must mean that in some societies, including this
one, my argument would be judged correct by a majority vote. :-)

>I can't argue my case any other way than the way I feel is right.

... by which you must mean, the way which you calculate that society
will vote to be right. :-)

>Among my hopes for my child are (1) that she will grow up with a
>morality that is largely in line with mine and that of my wife; 

Seriously, now: do you mean you don't expect that you and
your wife will have much to learn from your child?

>(2) that her moral views will not be so dramatically inconsistent with
>those of the society in which she lives as to cause her great distress
>or difficulty;

... or that the moral views of the society in which she lives will 
not be so inconsistent with hers as to cause her great distress and
difficulty.

>(3) that she will be able to compromise, to a certain
>extent, in order to live by society's rules even when those rules are
>inconsistent with her own moral judgments, and in order to interact
>beneficially with other individuals with whom she has moral conflicts;

To a certain extent, yes, this is sensible. But one must be willing
to draw the line, to set limits -- to *society*'s behaviour. (Just
as with the behaviour of parents. Neither society nor parents should
be set up as gods, beyond our power to judge.)

>(4) that she will have some power to change society when her
>morality conflicts with that of society.

Whew, I'm glad you said so! :-)

> > >We (again, as a society) tolerate these behaviors in very limited
> > >circumstances, such as physical assault for purposes of self defense.
> > >Physical assault for retaliation is *not* tolerated.
> > 
> > Except by governments, when it is mandatory, and resistance to it is
> > despised (oh, and I forgot, retaliation is then called "defense", or
> > in another context, "law and order").

>Yes, clearly my simplistic statement above doesn't hold up under even
>fairly mild scrutiny.  I'd still say that, at least on an individual
>scale, physical assault for retaliation is not generally tolerated,
>and that's what I was responding to.

True. My simplistic statements don't hold up, either!

> > So it's all just a matter of statistical facts? What happens, then,
> > when most citizens of a country support a Fascist regime? Does it
> > then become wrong to oppose it?

>Well, to most members of that society, probably it does.  To others
>who perceive the regime has wrong, it does not.

I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on this (or shift to
another newsgroup, as you say).

> > [Sits back and waits to be consumed by flames.]

>I hope you don't view this as one

No, not at all, and I've enjoyed all your posts.

>On the other hand, this discussion is a bit off the topic of spanking,

Yes.

>and pretty tenuously in the realm of misc.kids

Now, there I disagree with you: because what could be more relevant
to misc.kids than the question of what we teach  children (by word
or example) about morality?

But I'll have to wait and see if anyone agrees with me, before
taking this any further here. 

(If anyone else feels the way I do, we must all be punch-drunk by
now, and feel like nothing more demanding than sitting down in front
of "Sesame Street"!)

Thanks for the argument!
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--
Angus H. Rodgers  (PhD student), | arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk  
Dept. of Computer Science, Queen | [ +44 | 0 ] 71 975 5241   
Mary & Westfield College,  Mile  | "But what is contact? No two points
End Rd., London E1 4NS, England  | are in contact." -- A.N. Whitehead.