From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Lifdot & L'chaper
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:25:36 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Lifdot & L'chaper
Date: 11 Oct 1992 04:50:47 -0500

>> Not only that, but it is an Orthodox tradition that the death of the
>> righteous atones for the sins of the unrighteous, and for the sins of
>> the world, which is how they explain why tzadikkim suffer in this
>> world.  This they tie in with Isaiah 53!  Rabbi Beryl Wine has written
>> on this.  "May his death be an atonement for our generation" is an
>> expression commonly heard at the funeral of a rabbi.
> 
>That's the case with martyrs in general.  This has nothing to do
>with a voluntary man-god human sacrifice to atone for original
>sin for future generations.

I understand that the Orthodox are not referring to Yeshua.  I'm merely
pointing out the principle of the death of the righteous atoning for the
sins of others in Orthodox tradition.

>> Furthermore, Numbers 8:19ff portrays the Levites as a sort of living
>> sacrifice for the people.  One rabbinic source says that just as the
>> bull is the atonement for the Levites, the Levites are the atonement
>> for Israel.
>
>Source, please.  I'd like to look this up.

Don't remember it.  I heard Mike Brown say it, and I didn't write it down.
You can ask Mike yourself if you want, when he comes back from Israel.  I
won't do it for you.

>>  The analogy of a lightning rod is given, attracting God's
>> wrath upon themselves and away from the people.  In fact, in Numbers
>> 35 we see that blood was required for blood, and the manslayer had to
>> flee to a city of refuge.  According to Tractate Malkot it is not the
>> banishment which makes atonement or expiation for sin, but the DEATH
>> OF THE PRIEST.  The priest served as a mediator between sinner and
>> God.
> 
>This is for manslaughter resulting from contributory negligence, not
>for intentional sin or "original" sin.  Not even sacrifices would help
>until the sinner would repent.

I agree repentance is necessary.  The principle is there that the death of
the priest atones for sin.

>> This is interesting because we often hear the Messiah would not have
>> to die for the people.  But Messiah is not only King but Priest as
>> well, and as our Kohen Gadol His death atones for us once and for
>> ever, as He was raised from the dead and ever lives to make
>> intercession for us.
> 
>The Messiah can't be a priest.  He's from the tribe of Judah.

He is a Priest, according to the order of Malki-Tzeddek (who also was not
a Levite).  You can't put HaShem in your box.

>Furthermore, we learn from the Hashmoneans that combining the
>monarchy and the priesthood is A Bad Thing.

And who cares what the Hashmoneans say?

(Actually, I'd agree when you're talking about sinful men, like the Levites
or the kings of Israel [or any other kings].  But the Malki-Tzeddek
priesthood differs, in that the Priest is without sin, and lives forever.)

>> God demonstrates His own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf
>> while we were still sinners.  Therefore, since we have now come to be
>> considered righteous by means of His bloody sacrificial death, how much
>> more will we be delivered through Him from the anger of God's
>> judgment!
> 
>Depends on how you look at it.
> 
>From an SCJ posting (from Mark Kaufman, I believe):
> 
>#   Maccoby feel that there is an unconscious haterd of G-d in the
># Christ mythology.

Maccoby is obviously full of hot air.  And either he is grossly ignorant,
or he is purposely lying and being deceptive when he says:

># [...] deeply
># buried in the subconscious is the knowledge that G-d DEMANDED the
># death of his son in expiation of sins commited in disobedience to
># his cruel moral demands.  This sacrifice is sold as G-d providing
># a merciful escape for humanity from eternal damnation.

Cruel moral demands?  Rav Sha'ul says Torah is GOOD.

>#   Maccoby show how differently Judasim sees things.

Rabbinic Judaism.

># human morality is possible.  In Judaism, G-d has never condemned,
># or damned humanity, and so does not have to engineer a rescue, by
># the torture of a divine victim.  It is precisely because Judaism,
># which teaches that people are capable of moral responsibility, is
># constantly insisting on the possiblilty of morality for all ...

That certainly makes Rabbinism a "different religion" from Biblical Judaism.
Israel was reminded of its sin and imperfectable state every Yom Kippur.

>If Judaism is right,
># that salvation is possible through behavior, then the death Jesus
># will have been for nothing.

If Rabbinism were right, then it would have been for naught.  Of course,
then God wouldn't have sent Yeshua as our Pesach Lamb.  But He did, so I'd
say Maccoby and the rabbis are wrong.  Since Judaism is right in believing
that salvation is not possible through behavior, therefore Rabbinism is
wrong.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany