HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Psionics and Magic
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:56:05 GMT

aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew David Weiland) writes:

>The one exception is Psionics, which is dependent upon the Social Axiom
>(among other things).  But psionics are pretty rare, and I don't like
>the psionic system; it's more of a poor man's magic system than a system
>of interpersonal powers.

  By the hypothesis that Social (living => living) and
Magic (living => unliving), there are restrictions on what is psionics
and what is magic.  However this division would require a reworking of
the game mechanics of both.
--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Axioms
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:09:25 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b

On Apr 14,  1:37pm, Jeff Sullivan wrote:
> Sean writes:
> Is the world round?  Or is that merely our perception of it?  Is the
> world, in fact, a disturbance pattern in the vast standing wave that
> is reality?  One that we perceive as a globe suspended via
> gravitational forces in a near void called outer space?

The principle of least hypothesis that fits the facts. 

>>> Of course not: Does Cyberware cease to exist when YOU walk into
>>> France?  Does the second sun cease to rise when YOU enter Cairo?  The
>>> local reality exerts its influence on you.  BUT, if there are enough
>>> local folx who believe differently, the local reality reshapes to fit
>>> their belief.  It's the ultimate democracy. ;-)
>> 
>> Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
> 
> A non-sequitur is a concept based on ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.  Null-A or
> some bizarre other alternative may or may not be the "valid" model of
> the cosmverse.  You are extremely cosmcentric in your views.  So much
> so that you appear unable to even acknowledge that fact.

Your answer was a non sequitur because _I_ was talking about the
changes in perceived reality within _one_ cosm, and _you_ decided that
you were going to ignore my statement and talk about changes in
perceived reality between _different_ cosms. Within _one_ cosm, what
controls the shape of the cosm where two separate cultures believe in
different shapes for the cosm?

>> But the imposition of arbitrary limits on what is _possible_ requires
>> the active intervention of an outside force; by itself, the limits of
>> the Tech axiom track are trash.
> 
> That outside force is known as the Everlaws.  

The arbitrary limits have to be imposed _before_ the Everlaw of One
can act to eliminate a contradiction; it still requires some outside
force before the Everlaws will act.

-- 
random sig #101:
                                             | The proton absorbs a photon and
Sean Malloy                                  | emits two morons, a lepton, a
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | boson, and a boson's mate. Why
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     | did I ever take high-energy
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        | physics?
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Psi and Magic
Summary: differences?
Keywords: psionics,magic
Organization: New York University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 20:25:37 GMT


  I am wondering the difference in game balance terms between magic,
miracles and psi.  All three seem similar, and tend to blend in my
mind.

  I know there has been some talk about miracles and how they can
become unbalancing if one isn't careful to use the "sufficient cause"
rule.  Magic requires lots of study and can backlash.  I'm not
sure about psi, but going by the literature, doing psi causes
personal damage, yes?  So how is this different from backlash?

  I'm not looking for answers having to do with different axioms,
though.  Pretend we are in a universe where all axiom levels are
equal (say 18s or 20s across the board).  What would distinguish
an esper from a mage from a paladin?


--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Is anybody here?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 03:22:29 GMT

> 
> Is there something wrong with the server, or is everybody just too busy to
> send mail out?  I haven't gotten anything for quite a while, which seems odd
> considering the amount of mail I received when I first subscribed.

	It seems that the gateway between news and email is wonky.  

>   Anyway, I do have a small question about something that I probably missed in
> the rules.  What exactly are the rules for cyberware for characters from realms
> where the Tech axiom is less than the required level?  I have one player who 

	Well,  firstus, it's not really in character for an Aylish elf
to want cyberware, but if he did take it, he'd be a walking contradiction.
4 case anywhere but Aysle, Cyberpapacy or Tharkhold.  And of course, if 
he does disconnect, he's asking to get the wasting disease.  If he really
wants cyberware, I'd advise him taking a Cyberpapacy/Tharkhold character.


> wants a cybernetic elf.  Are there any special disconnection rules for this sort
> of thing?  If not, should the elf be limited for not fully understanding cyber-ware?  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, but they don't have to be limited to the elf.  I also have a core-earther who wants to use more powerful
> spells.  I would assume that the same applies to this situation, but again am 
> unsure.

	He's in a slightly better situation, since the spells aren't a part
of him (except if impressed), he's only in danger of disconnection when he
casts the spell.  If he can find someone to teach him spells, go for it.

-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Thank you all for coming, I'll spend your money foolishly.-J.Buffett
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:34:11 GMT

Sean Malloy(malloy@nprdc.navy.mil) states:
 ! _Different_ laws of physics isn't the problem; the problem is that if
 ! _laws_ of physics exist, then those laws must be _consistent_.

but we cant assume that these laws exsist, and we cant say they work 
the same in all cases, for all cases, everywhere equally
(that is just the apparent truth of a TECH 23 cosm)

 ! Again, no; you've already limited the maximum compressive force you
 ! can get from wood; as long as it's consistently applied everywhere,
 ! it's a _law_ of physics for that cosm. You can make gunpowder
 ! functionally inert by placing an upper limit on the _speed_ of chemical
 ! reactions; applied across the board, this is a consistent change,
 ! establishing a _law_ of physics, and not only defuses the explosive
 ! potential of other compounds, but eliminates the ability to get usable
 ! power from fossil fuels as well as some exploitable oddities like
 ! grain-dust explosions. 

again, acroos the board limits on CHEMICAL REACTIONS will hamper
similar reactions in biological processes, and this is not a living problem
(but then who's to say that life functions differently at TECH 7?)
("what do you mean the edinos as no internal organs?")

 ! A better example is firearms. At Tech 19, recoil-operated machine guns
 ! are possible; submachine guns are not possible until Tech 20. You can
 ! build a blowback-driven submachine gun identical in design to the
 ! Tech 21 MP-40, but which fires Tech 19 ammunition; explain to me how
 ! the _laws_ of physics permit a recoil-operated machine gun to
 ! function, but prevent a recoil-operated _sub_machine gun from working.

the peopple at WEG dont know a f**king thing about guns?
(and does the "tech 19" submachine gun just fire tech 19 ammo,
 or does it use tech 20 machining and engineering as well?)

 ! It's a simple application of Newton's First Law; if the recoil forces
 ! exist to operate the machine gun, they'll operate the submachine gun.

dave "dont assume things work the way they do just because they do" oakes
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Axiom mania!
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:11:25 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine

In article <BPOSTOW.92Apr10155256@fred.oberlin.edu> bpostow@fred.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow) writes:
>if say, an ayleish person is using an uzi in Nippon, and discos [this
>is a rule of 1 right] then he is considered a nippon local. Can he or
>can he not continue to use the uzi, and if not, why not.

	Yes, he can use the uzi, but he cannot use any spells he knows
and he loses any benefits he'd get from having either Honor or Corruption.

-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Thank you all for coming, I'll spend your money foolishly.-J.Buffett
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: ssmoogen@jupiter.nmt.edu (Stephen Smoogen)
Subject: Re:  world laws
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:39:58 GMT

A character no matter where he goes except in pure zones carries his
world laws with him. An Aysle person will earn honor and corruption no
matter where he goes. He can take advantage of these adds due to the
fact he carries these world laws with him. A nile person can use the
law of action unless he is in a pure zone. This is from the
sourcebooks, general past discussions, and I think infiniverse.

 All world laws outside of there own cosm are contradictions. If a
player is using his honor to increase his adds in mellee combat and he
rolls a 1 then he disconnects. If a nile person uses the law of action
to get the better of two rolls for possibilities (damn expensive if
you ask me) and rolls a one then he disconnects. By the way he is also
affected by the law of drama which means at least for him one scene
per act is dramatic. (The gm either can make a special one, or just
use the different line of the drama deck for him.) The only outside of
self world law that can be forced on someone else is the law of fear.
(However this is the only outside of self world law that I can think of.)

I guess the law of heretical magic would either be a long range law
(ie impossible) whether or not the gm says magic is a long range
contradiction. If the mage is connected to the spell by the pattern
(Aysle sourcebook) then the mage would get +5 to his bonus or not. He
would still be effected by the higher difficulty/backlash.

the Smooge
From: soholt@phakt.usc.edu (Timothy Soholt)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Up versus Inspiration (Was Re: Aztec Empire)
Date: 14 Apr 1992 20:04:04 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr15.020550.5584@muddcs.claremont.edu> 
tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu (T. Erik Browne) writes:

>Otherwise they almost always get only shock
>damage, and as soon as they get 'up', it goes away (I could also tell you the
>story about how we got the same card (heroes up and with initiative) for about
>five rounds using leadership and keep the card stuff).

Um, isn't it "Inspiration" that eliminates all shock damage? If I remem-
ber correctly, (which it's possible I don't), an "Up" just gives every-
one on that side a free roll-again.

-- Tim Soholt (soholt@aludra.usc.edu), The Man With No .sig
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re:  the working of axiom levels
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 04:53:11 GMT

Well, after system problems here, there, and everywhere, I'm back ...
after missing part of my favorite argu-  ummm discussion.

> 
> My whole point was that, with the information WEG has provided, there is *no*
> internal consistancy. That's why I was soaying that some things will have to be
> changed from the official rules to make things work.

I think the situation is just the opposite.  The only problem with Torg is
that you can explain *anything* with this system.  It's absolutely
unfalsifiable - just like a religion.  The only apparent problem with
internal consistency  comes in if one  insists upon applying a framework of
physics that doesn't apply to the universe one is in.  And the answer to
this is easy - don't do that!  As I mentioned in a previous post (which I
hope got out) I see no reason why you can't have Toon phyics in Torg - except
for disgust on the part of GM's as to what Toon characters will do in the
'real' world :-).  [Well, there's always ink eradicator].

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: ssmoogen@jupiter.nmt.edu (Stephen Smoogen)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:54:31 GMT

Sean, Sean, Sean.....

You keep looking at the world using the physics of Core Earth and a Tech
Axiom of 23. The laws of physics work here so they must work everywhere...
in Torg that just isn't the case. It makes sense to our 23 Tech minds that
branches in the Living Land must be able to deliver more power the larger
they are. We are applying physical laws of our universe to theirs, which
is where most contradictions lie.

If we are to apply some of the physical laws (if branches cant support
that much power, then trees can't support that power)... then we must
apply all our physical laws... gunpowder should make an explosion in a
gun because physics says so. In any low tech cosm (land below/LL) this
is just not the case. Gunpowder is just like any other dust. The
physical laws that make it blow up don't exist.

I think the best explanation so far has been that the everlaw of one
shunts the bows extra power away. Or better yet, the only thing I have
found useful from the LL sourcebook. Professor Templeton's theory of
why things are different in different realms is that they are just
different and that there are no special quantum mechanical effects or
other such things to explain it. This theory is the one that WEG says
is correct.

well I would like to go in this more because I don't think my argument
is really convincing, but we got another shutdown message and I have
to scedattle.... Damn Black Wombat... its made our machine disconnect
again.

the SMooGE

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re:  The Great Axiom Slugfest Continues
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:06:39 GMT

Chris P. writes:

> Sean -- quit taking it so seriously! I know you are a physics type
> (it is at least a hobby with you). But Rick Pim is also -- and *he*
> doesn't seem to have any problems with this! (more smileys)

I'm a physics type too and I've pretty much given up on this thread;
one side believes one thing, one side believes another, another side
sees it their way, etc etc.  Since no one seems willing to look at
things differently I haven't bothered to post my own views (no point
in it).

Wake me when a new thread gets started....

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re:  Is anybody here?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 20:26:22 GMT

 ! If not, should the elf be limited for not fully understanding cyber-ware?

just wanted to touch on this, since the 4 case was resolved

i would say that there is no penalty, since the Elf is Prated,
and can therefore understand ANYTHING, if he puts his mind to it
(an ord would have to be taught, but then few ords would be able
 to make the cyber function at all, so why bother)

this assumes that the Elf makes an effort to get cyber,
and isnt just kidnapped and "experimented" on
(if you dont know what it is, you dont know how to work it,
 even if you COULD understand the principles involved)

i would like to repeat that, being an elf, and a native of AYSLE,
it is pretty extreme to want cyber, as you would most likely prefer
reliable magic over questionable tech
(not that you CANT, just better have good reason -
 like an interest in clocks and other tech, or such)

dave "'Because i want a big gun' should not be rewarded" oakes


Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: A can of worms to detonate
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:00:00 GMT

snark@bmerh327.BNR.CA (Eric Nelson) writes:

>|> I've never seen a quark.  Nobody I know has seen a quark.  If you can't
>|> observe it, then it doesn't exit.  Therefore, quantum particles don't exist
>|> in Aysle.  Which I think is a good idea, since quantum mechanics is one of
>|> the screwiest sciences I have ever encountered.

>   Does this mean that invisibility spells are impossible?

I think Invisibility works on the same principle as air.  You cannot see air,
but you can observe the effects air has on other things.
-- 
Clay W. Luther                  cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
System Manager                  Center for Network Neuroscience
University of North Texas       PO Box 5218 Denton, Texas 76203
817/565-3896,3472               aka. Malraux@GodNet (Bushashuru!)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Jeff Sullivan <jas@ISI.EDU>
Subject: CyberStuff
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 23:21:27 GMT



Could someone list for me all of the stuff out there related to the
CyberPapacy?  I'll be setting a more-or-less one-cosm campaign there soon
and I'd like to be up to date.

I have the basics:

CP Sourcebook
The GodNet

jas
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Temple of Rek Stalek?
Summary: When in the Archives was this discussed at length?
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:15:37 GMT
Organization: New York University


  I've looked, and aside from a couple of short comments about this
adventure involving a renegade priest with a new religion, nothing
more was said.



--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Peter A. Schott <pact_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Subject: axioms, etc.
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:47:43 GMT

I've been reading the news for a while now and have noticed that the discussions
are getting kind of redundant.  Some people hold that axioms must work as we've
observed them to.  This doesn't really hold with the feel of Torg (imho).
  Personally, I think that what happens in each cosm should be explained in
terms of the laws of the cosm.  Core Earth is explained under our axioms, but
we can't use those to explain other cosms with different axioms.  Why keep 
trying, then?  I realize that this is probably not really enough said, but I
want to keep my opinions short and to the point.  I also see no reason to add
every line from a previous letter to mine.  Maybe it's just because I have
trouble reading it on my system.    :^)
	You can flame me if you wish, but please keep it short and to the point.
Have a day.	Pete Schott	pact_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
    "This space unintentionally left blank."
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Re: shapeshifters
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 14:30:52 GMT

	According to the Orrorsh Sourcebook, shapeshifting is supported
only by Orrorsh, like pulp powers are supported only Nile Axioms.  

-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Thank you all for coming, I'll spend your money foolishly.-J.Buffett
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: hudson@dragon.ulowell.edu (Kevin Maurice Hudson)
Subject: unknown difficulty
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:39:49 GMT

==> On Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:11:17 -0500 (CDT), Z_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (BRANDON COPE) said:

  BC> No, I think that if they fail, they can immediately use a
  BC> possibility, if they desire. the examples in the rule book seem
  BC> to pooint in this direction.

Actually, the character can only spend a possibility before the GM
tells her the result; therefore they will not know if they fail, before
they spend.  We usually play it that once you directly tell the GM
your total you can't spend a possibility or use cards to modify the
total.

--
Kevin Hudson				Xriva Uhqfba
hudson@dragon.cpe.ulowell.edu		uhqfba@qentba.pcr.hybjryy.rqh
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Chris Pearce <cpearce@morticia.cnns.unt.edu>
Subject: Psionics
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:24:11 GMT

> BTW, notice that there are no psionics in Torg? Wonder if that is because they
> couldn't think of any non-bogus way to prevent them from operating in any cosm
> regardless of the Axioms?

The psionics rules set is in the Space Gods sourcebook. Psionics requires
a minimum Social, Tech, and Spiritual axiom to function; otherwise, it
is a contradiction.

-- 
Chris Pearce -- cpearce@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
--
  "We're in a sticky situation all right. This is the stickiest situation 
   since Sticky the Stick insect got caught on a sticky bun."
      - EB, BA4
Organization: Junior, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 00:59:42 -0400 
From: Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Axiom Ceilings

In support of the changing axioms rules,

1) Axiom levels can certainly decrease; Earth's magic axiom has fallen
from the past, when it was at least 9.  The inhabitants of faerie left
Earth, and returned when Aylse invaded and raised the magic axiom.

2) The creation legend of Aylse suggests that the magic axiom was
actually increased by Dunad's actions.

3) Cosms naturally absorb possibility energy.  If DDs can use
possibility energy to shift axioms, then why don't cosms do the same?

4) Rising axioms: Tharkold.
It is stated that the Social axiom in Tharkhold has risen in the past,
and not as the result of DD intervention.  The rising social axiom was
due to organization by 'The Race', and was certainly not something the
Tharkoldu wanted at the time.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg