From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: ARF's racist remark was:Re: Treason vs. Espionage
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:50:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.172001.18751@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>You know, I am stunned.  We actually have people arguing with ARF who
>are stupider than he is.  Astonishing.

>In article <1992Dec15.101822.27928@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>>In <BzA2vG.KyI@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>>>In <1g4a63INNbi6@agate.berkeley.edu> dan@jonas.berkeley.edu dan graves says:

>>>>|>  >You agree that non-whites are incapable of sustaining our 
>>>>|>  civilization?  That's pretty raw even for you, Jack.

>>>>|>  I was agreeing with sentiment.  I did not choose the words.  
>>>>|>  It is someone elses' quote.

>>>>|>  I would have used the culture instead of civilization.

>>>>|>  Clearly when a whole group of Aamericans desides to call 
>>>>|>  themselves African-Americans, they are implying a desire to 
>>>>|>  promote a different culture.

>>>>This comment is racist.  Clearly Schmidling thinks that African Americans 
>>>>have less right to their identity than Italian Americans or Irish 
>>>>Americans or (insert Caucasian identity) Americans.

>Let's note that Dan seems to be totally unable to read what Arf has
>said.  Arf is quite reasonable on this point, for once.  Unlike other
>groups in America which are steadily moving towards assimmilation, a
>large fraction of blacks seem to be actively seeking to move further
>away from the common culture.  I can't think of any other group that
>does that.

Well, if you set up a straw man like "the common culture," a creature
which doesn't even exist, it's no wonder you can't think of a group that
does that.

Accepting your dubious premise for a moment, though, I can.  Native
Americans.  See any similarities between the two groups?  Like, maybe,
they didn't choose to be part of this country in the first place? Like, 
maybe, a natural reaction to attempted forced assimilation is to
assert your differences?

Nahhh.  That couldn't be it.

But I *don't* accept your premise that all other groups are moving
towards assimilation towards the common culture.

>>>>I've got news for you, Schmidling, you hateful racist bastard.  African 
>>>>Americans have been here longer than most groups and have made more of a 
>>>>contribution to American culture than any other ethnic group i can think of

>What about Whites/European Americans?

I was kind of wondering when "European Americans" became an ethnic
group.  I mean, really.  Do you think WASPs and Ukranian-Americans and
Greek-Americans have anything in common other than a former continent
and a skin color?

>>>>They can call themselves anything they like and i for 
>>>>one will respect their contribution to MY culture.

>What is your culture?  It wouldn't happen to be the American Culture,
>would it?  So in that case, who is "they"?  After all, if "they" are
>part of the American Culture then how can they be contributing new and
>extraneous elements to it?

What, exactly, is the "American" culture?

>>>>Yes, Schmidling, you filthy racist, African Americans
>>>>are just as American as you are.  

>Maybe as Schmidling, but not as American as I am.  You see, I am not a
>hyphenated American, whether that's European-American or
>Jewish-American or British/Romanian-American.  I'm an American.  Any
>black who considers himself to be an American is as American as I am.
>If he considers himself to be an African-American then he isn't.

Why not?  What makes someone "American?"  Calling yourself
African-American doesn't make you more or less American.  I could just
as easily argue that it is COMPLETELY American to call yourself a
hyphenated American, since so many Americans do it, and that you are
therefore less American than everyone else.

>>>I don't know where to begin editing this rubbish so I left in in tact.

>>>All I said was the African Americans are (by definition) promoting African
>>>culture.  Everything you said in response is nothing by hateful rubbish
>>>because you can't think of anything objective to say about what is 
>>>a given and are to stupid to keep your mouth shut.

>>This was a dumb rebuttal to Schmidling's idiotic post.  Schmidling, your
>>post was stupid because it made no sense.  (1) There is no such thing as
>>"African culture."  Any more than there is such a thing as "European
>>culture."  

>I agree.  Interestingly enough, many American blacks do not.  

Of course, there is such a thing as Northwestern-European culture with a few
other token pieces of other European cultures thrown in, which some people 
have decided to set up as "American" culture.  Just like some
Christian-Americans try to make this into a Christian country.

The fact that blacks are trying to emphasize their heritage through
historically dubious means does not invalidate the sentiment behind it.

>>(2) African-American's are not by definition promoting
>>African culture at all. 

>Then why are they suddenly hyphenating themselves instead of calling
>themselves Americans?

Suddenly?  African-American is new; Afro-American isn't.  
Again, what does hyphenating your name have to do with promoting non-American 
culture?  They're simply emphasizing their heritage the way other
ethnics groups do.  They freely admit that their nationality is
"American."  But they don't have to call themselves ethnically American,
as if there were such a thing.

>>(3) When you say they are "promoting a
>>different culture," what do you mean?  Different than what?  Different
>>than non-African-Americans?  Sure.  But Italian-Americans promote a
>>different culture than non-Italian-Americans, and you never seem to be
>>complaining that Italian-Americans can't sustain "our" civilization.

>Well this plain isn't true.  Do you know any Italian Americans?  After
>a couple of generations they act just like everyone else, except for a
>deplorable tendency to have names like Luigi, Vinny, and Guido.  If
>you ask them what they are they say "American".  If you ask them their
>origin/ethnic group they say Italian.  The only time they use the
>word "Italian-American" is in a discussion like this.

Well, this is just not true; *you* obviously know very few people at all.
Why do you think Michael Dukakis and later Paul Tsongas got so much
money from the Greek-American community?  Why do you think Serbian-American
groups have been protesting against the US government's policy of blaming
mainly Serbia for the Balkan mess?  Why do you think Italian-American
groups get upset when people attack Columbus?  

Why do you think that Italian Americans act "just like everyone else,"
when you're claiming that blacks and Jews and others don't do this?

Dave, wondering why it's a deplorable tendency to have a name like
Luigi, Vinny, or Guido.  

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
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