HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eandersn@mach1.wlu.ca (Niels Ejvind Andersen)
Subject: Re: Upside down Boeings?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:25:30 GMT

Marc. Durieux (med2p@receptor.pharm.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: I noted that it is fairly straightforward to fly the planes in ATP
: upside down.  Just get a good bit of speed, and then turn over with
: a full roll.  And remember that all your stick movements are now
: reversed.  It works even with the 747.  Anyone who knows if this would
: in fact be possible with these aircraft?  I realize they're not
: designed for it, but still...

It's possible!  There was an article in National Geographic some year ago
about a 747 which performed a full roll with a load of passengers.  The
passengers complained that the aircraft had gone inverted, but the pilots
denied the roll had occurred.  However, when the flight data recorder tape
was input into a computer so the flight path of the aircraft could be
reconstructed, the full roll was evident.

For some still unknown reason, the aircraft had gone into an uncontrolled
descent, and the pilots did not notice the roll---they were too busy trying
to get the aircraft back under control.  

Each aircraft has a maximum positive and negative G limitation, as well
as a never exceed speed, and as long as these limitations are not grossly
exceeded, the aircraft should hold together, regardless of its size.

However, my stomach has a standing rule about avoiding aerobatics in real
airplanes, big or small, but I wear a seat-belt at all times nevertheless!
--
Niels Ejvind Andersen     [eandersn@mach2.wlu.ca / 70511.2302@compuserve.com]
Information Systems, Wilfrid Laurier University, Waterloo, ON  N2L 3C5 Canada
                                                                  ... VFR NC4

From: chrisd@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Chris Douglas)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 00:49:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Upside down Boeings?
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators


Inverted flight:

As you roll to inverted flight you are performing a 1G maneuver. 
However, when you stop that plane inverted, then the world changes.
The G loading no goes through the top of the plane and wings.  The
wings must be able to generate enough lift, due to air striking
the TOP of the wing (because the plane is inverted) , to keep the
plane aloft.  This will most likely need a high angle of attack.
You will now be putting a high stress load on the wings in the 
opposite direction that was intended.  Not to say that the wings
would break, but...  

Also, when flying a plane inverted, one needs to examine the fuel
delivery system, engine cooling system, and the engine lubrication 
system.  To say the least a gravity feed fuel system would be a
poor choice :-)

Chris Douglas
From: nikke.gaby@compart.fi (Nikke Gaby) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: PILOTE TRAINING SCHOOL
Date: 5 Jan 93 22:16:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: ComPart BBS, Helsinki-Finland, +358 0 506 3329 (14 lines V.32bis)
Reply-To: nikke.gaby@compart.fi (Nikke Gaby) 

        Hi !

        I'd like to introduce myself : I'm a 25 years old student at the
        Helsinki University of Technology. (Finland)

        I got me Private Pilote Licence last summer in France where I
        was instructed on Robin DR-400, DR-300 and ATL by a former Navy
        Fouga-Magister instructor. Anyway, my interest on flying is
        growing everyday and I will graduate in the next future from the
        University.

        So, I'm looking for me and my brother Patrick a high caliber
        pilote training in a professional environment. We're searching
        full-time training and high quality education. We're certified
        physically fit and drug-free. We both have the Private Pilote
        Licence.

        What we want is that the institute, or academy is an FAA
        approved Part 141 Flight School and provides Certificates of
        Eligibility for Nonimmigrant (M-1 & I-20) Student Status or
        equivalent.

        If you know such a school that will provide us a Professional
        Multi-Engine Turbine Instrument Flight Degree, please live a
        message or send your proposition to the following address :

                                        Nicolas Gabriel-Robez
                                        Alalinnake 1 E 47
                                        02160 ESPOO
                                        Finland
                                        fax : (358-0) 425 940

        Thank you !
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
                                                                                                                             
----
+--------------------------------------------------+
| ComPart BBS    +358-0-506-3329 (ZyXEL V.32bis)   |
| Helsinki, Finland  -  Number 1 BBS in Finland    |
+--------------------------------------------------+
From: mochang@aludra.usc.edu (Morrison J. Chang)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: FTP site for flight sim reviews ?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 23:53:54 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Summary: Looking for reviews of flight sim.
Keywords: reviews FTP Flight Simulator FS Mallard

Hi, just the newsgroup I've been looking for...

Is there a FTP site where there are reviews of flight sim stuff?
Like FS 4.0, and what are these Mallard products I see in the stores.

I'm interested in getting FS 4.0, but want to know the good/bad points
before I buy, maybe a bug list or if you know of a new version is coming
out soon.

Thanks.

-Morrison

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: Andrew_Tuline@mindlink.bc.ca (Andrew Tuline)
Subject: Re: ATP Question
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:49:08 GMT


Departure and destination locations are in 1 of the manuals included with
ATP.  One other method to find this out is with a program on Compuserve's
FSFORUM in lib3 called atputi.zip.  This program is great in that it shows
career information as well as routes centers, all of which are modifiable.
From: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: Upside down Boeings?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 01:19:50 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

jtg0707@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jui Tien) wrote:

>>Of more concern is that the fuel and oil systems are designed to work
>>with gravity pulling the fluids "down."  Reverse the directions, and the
>>fuel system wil start sucking air.  One can even see boost pump low
>>pressure lights come on in real airplanes, during steep turns.
>
>I think it is called the 1g aileron roll. You lose quite a bit of
>altitude while maintaining that all important 1g throughout the
>roll. Tex Johnston did it (twice) in the pre-production version of Boeing 707.
>The airplane (Dash-80?) was recently restored and scheduled to take up
>permanent residence at the Smithsonian soon.

As I understand it, the original poster was referring to inverted flight:
rolling upside down, then attempting to maintain altitude.  Naturally, if
one can perform maneuvers to maintain a positively loaded condition, there
is less risk of specific system failure.  The important factor at this point
is that one doesn't impose excessive loads, either during the maneuver, or 
during the recovery. 

Note that the airplane doesn't know what's "up" or "down."  It merely reacts 
to its local environment.  Maneuvers which can "fool" it, such as barrel 
rolls, are consistent with this model.  

In the case of the China Airlines 747, which flipped over near Los Angeles
in 1985, there was neither an intent to fly inverted nor controlled flight.
The airplane sustained extremely high load factors in the pull-out and 
dive (up to 9 g's); the wing was permanently bent as a result of this.  There
was also tailplane flutter damage; the airplane came very close to Mach 1
as well.

Just getting flipped over isn't remarkable.  Maintaining that state is, and,
again, going back to the original post, it isn't possible to maintain 
sustained inverted flight; I've never heard of a transport-category aircraft
doing this.  Aerodynamically, it might be possible, even after the engines
cut out, but structurally, I wouldn't risk it.




--
Robert Dorsett
Internet: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!rdd
From: cs491122@umbc8.umbc.edu (cs491122)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: Formation Flying...
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:33:58 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc8.umbc.edu

In article <1ib1slINN9hn@tamsun.tamu.edu> mkk9316@tamsun.tamu.edu (Mark Kuebeler) writes:
>In article <1ia74kINNpba@news.umbc.edu> cs491122@umbc8.umbc.edu (cs491122) writes:
>>
>>Hi there:
>>
>>Is there any PC flight simulators
>>	that let the user practice formation flying?
>
>I think Red Baron (Dynamix) would fit the bill nicely.  It's a WW1
>air combat sim.  In career mode you do not start out leading formations.
>Generally you fly as part of 2,3, or 4 plane formations.  There is a

hey Mark:

I'd like to know how well the Red Baron planes "fly",
	and how detail the instruments are simulated.
I also would like to know if the game has good enough
	visual feedback that enables one to keep oneself
	in the formation without resorting to some auto game switch.

Amen Zwa.

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: Gavin Adams <gavin.adams@lso.mts.dec.com>
Subject: Re: More Qs abot F15/SEIII
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A776FD627102BA16@godzilla.jdola.lanl.gov>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 11 Jan 93 10:33:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:34:23 GMT

In article <eyal.726655917@ise> Eyal Lebedinsky, eyal@echo.canberra.edu.au
writes:
>Frame rate: I did AltF and it says between 100 and 200 frames/sec. Well
>this should be wonderful but it still is not smooth! So I fired up JF2
>and sure enough it's as smooth as can be. I think that the problem is in
>the way the picture contents is handled - it jumps a lot. Also there are
>zillion of black dashes running on the ground all the time - I'd say we
>got here a severe aliasing problem (never seen it so bad before).
>

Divide by 10.  There is an terse explanation in the addendum/install guide
for F153.  IMHO, still too slow.  Way too slow.  Let me rephrase that... :)

--- Gavin
Visualize Whirled Peas!
From: jao@savanna.UUCP (J. A. Ollinger)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: Formation Flying...
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 19:54:00 PST
Distribution: na
Organization: Savanna, Ltd.

cs491122@umbc8.umbc.edu (cs491122) writes:

> I'd appriciate some pointers on how to practice formation flying
> 	(within the limits of a PC fsim of course).
> 	Is it possible in F3 to set up a simple fly-around mission
> 	where the user is not the leader and must fly in formation
> 	following the computer flown lead plane?

Sure.  Using the AIRCRAFT AND SCENERY DESIGNER, you would record dynamic
scenery of an airplane flying along.  Try this:

1.  Fly the airplane of your choice up to a certain altitude.  When you
get there and you're stabilized,

2.  Open up the MODE menu and choose Option J, SCENERY DESIGN.

3.  Choose Option 4, DYNAMIC SCENERY DESIGNER

4.  Choose Option c, RECORD PATTERN

5.  You'll end up back in the airplane and able to control its flight.
Just fly steady for as long as you want.  When you get tired of it, stop
the recorder (Press Y).

6.  You'll end up in the EDITOR, which allows you to save the pattern.

(All this is outlined in more detail in the manual.)

When you're done, go back, load and run the dynamic scenery.  Take off
with your "live" plane and catch it, then see if you can hold formation
with it.

The nice thing about this is that as you get better, you can record more
difficult patterns and run them as often as you want to practice.


=============================================================================
J. A. Ollinger of Sacramento, Calif.
This site is not yet registered on UUCP maps.  Route mail me to me at:
JAO@SACTOH0.SAC.CA.US
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas)
Subject: Re: ATP 3D window screen resolution
Keywords: ATP
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 02:21:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.234407.20127@ncsu.edu> cth@math.ncsu.edu (Christopher T. Hudgin) writes:
>
>   Is it my imagination, or does the 3D window in Flight Assignment:  ATP
>operate in a lower screen resolution mode than the 3D window in Microsoft
>Flight Simulator 4.0?  If FS4's 3D window operates in 640x350, does
>ATP's 3D window operate in 320x200 resolution?  It just seems to me that
>buildings, planes, and other features look less "sharp" in ATP than they do
>in FS4.  Is this what SubLOGIC calls its "improved scenery?"  Less resolution?
>(Note: I have a VGA monitor and run FS4 in 640x350x16 VGA mode and ATP in
>EGA mode.)

ATP and FS both run in 640x350.  The reason ATP seems more coarse in it's
3D window is because the 3D window is *smaller* than the one in FS4.  If
you look at the instrument panels, you will notice that the instrument
panel in ATP is much larger than the one in FS4.  This leads to less room
on the screen for displaying the scenery, but better instrument detail
(and there is no doubt that the instruments in ATP are much nicer, esp. in
the blue-box version).
   subLOGIC's "improved scenery" has nothing to do with resolution, but 
rather it refers to:  wider scenery coverage, a new coordinate system with
correct magnetic variations, high-altitude scenery during cruise (meaning
ATP displays scenery from a greater distance when you are at high altitude,
something FS lacks), and better runway marking/details.

-- 
John Mechalas                                          "I'm not an actor, but
mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu                                 I play one on TV."
Aero Engineering, Purdue University                     #include disclaimer.h
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: knutson@urbino.mcc.com (Jim Knutson)
Subject: Re: Formation Flying...
Organization: MCC, Austin, Texas
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:36:35 GMT

I have done this with Falcon 3 quite a few times.  You need to setup a
seperate flight to fly with since you are the lead for your own
flight.  I find the controls smooth enough to be able to maintain a
reasonably tight formation while flying a straight line (hi-fi flight
model).  Heading changes after waypoints are a problem as the lead slot
changes heading without much warning (you need to stay high or low in
case he cuts in front of your flight path).  Your only warning is to
watch the distance to waypoint and be prepared.

It's also possible with AOTP.  However, I find formation flying in ATOP
to be iffy at best.  There seems to be some narrowly defined
positioning allowable for your plane before the rest of the flight
starts taking drastic collision avoidance manuevers.  This is a problem
for any flying aircraft you try to get close to (i.e. you aren't going
in for any close looks at the bombers you may be escorting).  Getting
into that slot is difficult.  It's been very frustrating for me to try
to fly anything but the number 1 slot.  Controls are very discrete and
coarse so trying to find the correct pitch/speed combination is very
difficult.  Settings are maximum reality, collisions off.  Course
changes are abrupt and without warning.  No indication of flight speed
is given in the briefings, only altitude and direction.

Both of these simulators have formation concepts built in to them.  You
can vary the formation type.  AOTP lets you fly in a slot other than
the lead.  Falcon can do this by setting up a second flight you want to
fly with.  In addition, Falcon 3.01 will let you vary the formation
tightness dynamically during flight.  Both have reasonable view
selections allowing for formation flying.

For comparison, I fly a 486/50 with Thrustmaster FCS & WCS.  Don't
leave home base without them :-).

-- 
Jim Knutson                                                | |
knutson@mcc.com                                         --=oOo=--
cs.utexas.edu!milano!knutson                               +
Wk: (512) 338-3362                                      Check Six!
From: at608@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Thrustmaster/Falcon Combo Deal
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:56:13 GMT
Reply-To: at608@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Rogers)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Just saw  a combo package at Software, Etc.:  Thrustmaster joystick and
Falcon 3.0 for $109.
-- 
Bob Rogers            Internet:  at608@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: mochang@phakt.usc.edu (Morrison J. Chang)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: FTP site for flight sim reviews ?
Date: 10 Jan 1993 15:52:22 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu
Keywords: reviews FTP Flight Simulator FS Mallard

jao@savanna.UUCP (J. A. Ollinger) writes:

> ...  I've got just about everything that can be bought
>for FS4.  Which do you want described?

Well, I heard that FS4 is good at single engine simulation but not
as good for multiple engines. True or false?

I'm interested in being able to design my own airplanes, e.g. a 4 engine
turboprop. Would I use Microsoft's Aircraft and Scenery Design or Mallard's
Aircraft and Adventure Factory? (Differences between the two?)

Is voice synthesis available as an add-on product, i.e. tower commands
that sort of thing?

Thanks for the info.

-Morrison
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: larry@mits.mdata.fi (Lasse Hero)
Subject: Re: ATP Question
Organization: Microdata Oy
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:52:29 GMT

pfingsta@inm.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Pfingstag) writes:

>Hi fellows,
>I have a question concerning the career asignement in the atp. 
>When I start a new flight, how can I find out the destination and
>the start airport. I always get informations about the weather and
>so on but no hint about the route I have to fly.

They're listed in the manual, in the "Introduction to Flight
Assignment: A.T.P." - leaflet..

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
! Lasse Hero, Kannelj{rventie 6 B, 02130 Espoo, Finland      !
! (90) 455 1074 ! larry@mits.mdata.fi / larry@purkki.apu.fi  !
--------------------------------------------------------------
From: at608@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Rogers)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: HOTAS
Date: 12 Jan 1993 16:08:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: at608@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Rogers)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Computer Gaming World recently had a write-up on the HOTAS system discussed
here over the last week or so.  It mentioned a file, "HOTAS.ZIP", that is 
available on the CompuServ flight sim. forum.  Is there a reader of this
group who could get the file (it's apparently a text file) and post it?

Thanks.
-- 
Bob Rogers            Internet:  at608@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: jao@savanna.UUCP (J. A. Ollinger)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: Questions and observations
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 15:53:46 PST
Distribution: na
Organization: Savanna, Ltd.

mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:

>    1) Has anyone played the AAF Adventure "Air Rescue 911"?  It looks
>       pretty good as far as the box description and photos, but I have
>       learned to be wary of Mallard's box descriptions.  :)

Yes.  I enjoy it.  Pre-recorded VOC files replicate ATC chatter.  The ATC
vectors you out somewhere to pick up a wounded person.  Many of the
runways are blocked and very short.  You can end up flying IFR with
little or no warning.  You pick up as many people as you can in a 40
minute period or you run out of gas.  The game is somewhat repetitive
because there are about 8 places to fly, but there are more than one
airstrip in most locations, and you can pick the order you pick up the
wounded.  And the radio chatter can be funny to listen to--the
programmers have a sense of humor.

>    5) It's too bad you can't specify different disks *and* directories
>       for MS FS and ATP scenery files (ATP let's you select a directory,
>       but not a different drive).  There are services that will put
>       programs and files on CD-ROM for you, and it sure would be nice to
>       be able to put all my scenery disks on CD-ROM...they take up quite
>       a bit of HD space.  :)

Great idea!  I never thought of that.  Hopefully FS5 will be able to read
from CD-ROM.  God knows FS4's current "throw everything in \FS4" is
nightmarish.



=============================================================================
J. A. Ollinger of Sacramento, Calif.
This site is not yet registered on UUCP maps.  Route mail me to me at:
JAO@SACTOH0.SAC.CA.US
From: mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark Sechrest)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
Subject: Re: Upside down Boeings?
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:31:06 GMT
Reply-To: mws20@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Mark Sechrest)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <82356@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> gedwards@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Gordon Edwards) writes:
>MS FS4 will also let you fly the 747 upside down, and even do a loop in
>it (if you start out really really high).
>
>I'm sure it really upsets the passengers though.
>
Try landing the 747 on the aircraft carrier just off the coast. I think
that would upset a few people, too. But don't try to take off again- the
catapult won't help you out and there just isn't enough deck to get the
job done.

Mark
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: vernon@iadpsa.safe.ia.gov ( Mark Vernon - DSB )
Subject: Re: F15/II and Thunder SoundBlaster
Organization: Iowa Department of Public Safety
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:29:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.170737.20819@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> farhad@CS.Stanford.EDU (Farhad Shakeri) writes:
>Maybe I can get a hint here.  
>
>I just bought a Thunder ?Ball?  Soundblaster and with it came 
>a lot of demo programs including  F15/II  FS.
>
>It installs fine with no visible problems.  but when I start the
>program and go through all of the starting formats, the program
>dies/stops (dos prompt) around 5 to 10 seconds after thge simulator
>starts (flying).
>
>There is around 635K if low mem available and nothing else is running.
>
>I tried it without sound too and it fails too.
>
>Is this a know problem with F15II?  
>
>Am I goofing up somewhere?
>
>The sound board works fine with no conflict with other devices.
>Falcon 3  and  JF2 work fine with it too.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Farhad Shakeri
>
>-- 
>
>   "Switch the computer off, wait 30 seconds and switch it on again
>     if nothing happens."
>					"Stepping Up To OS/2 2.0"
>

 I have had this problem too, I have an early version of F15 SEII I believe your problem is with dos 5.0, if you use a dos 3.31 boot disk it runs ine
-- 
+ Mark Vernon - Cap Gemini America          VERNON@IADPSA.SAFE.IA.GOV  +
+ Pulic Safety - Data Services Bureau                                  +
+   I have seen assault ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion        +
+                                                - Roy Batty           +
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.simulators
From: Ian_Staines@mindlink.bc.ca (Ian Staines)
Subject: CH Flightstick in ATP
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 01:35:19 GMT

....(more)
My "CH Flightstick" now works in my games port. I have been using it for FS4,
and it is GREAT! I have co-ordinated aileron & rudder plus elevator and
throttle.

I am having problems getting this to work with ATP.  If I select the single
joystick mode I do not get the THROTTLE control.  However; if I choose the
double joystick mode, ATP assumes I have rudder pedals as well, and disables
the co-ordinated aileron and rudder movement. Is there any way to set
co-ordinated flight mode as well as have a throttle?

Ian Staines
(Vancouver, BC Canada)