HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:30:46 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Laura Manninen

 LJM> What I think about scholarship is irrelevant here. What annoys me 
 LJM> is that you keep selling short Harvey Smith without any reason 
 LJM> whatsoever (except maybe harassment).

Laura, we are still researching the truth of the matter, and i have feelers out at Oxford, and here at the local seminary..

However our friend, keeps judging me without any real knowledge of me or my 
knowledge which is really very very little.  I do not really consider myself a scholar, but one who is continually learning.

Jack on the other hand uses cultic tactics, when he doesn't have any proof or anything tangeable to say...  Very normal for a person who tends towards the cultic...  I am very thick skinned though.  (grin).

While i do not consider myself a scholar by any means, i do believe in learning all i can... 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Astounding Miracle verified
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:17:18 EST
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Harvey Smith wrote:

>This article was taken from the Messianic Times Newspaper, PO Box 1191 Lewisto
>
>
>Can God Heal AIDS?  Can a homosexual change his life-style?  As Daniel bustos,
>
>On November9, 1990 Daniel Bustos tested HIV positive and was diagnosed having 
>
>Bustos 30, who is a licensed psychologist was sexually abused as a cjhild and 
>
>I was always tormented by sex, Bustos said in a nes report in the June edition
>
>Two years ago Daniel Bustos walked into the Messianic Jewish congregation, Bet
>Bustos knew that his life-style was not right before God and that day he accep
>
>
>After a lot of crying and recognizing my sin, i asked Yeshua to forgive me.  A
>
>Bustos told victor Faur Messianic leader of Beth Shalom Ha Mashiach that he wa
>
>For the next year and a half Messianic Pastor Faur and the other leaders of hi
>
>On February 28, 1992, Bustos had another AIDS test which proved negative He wa
>
>He says, "i look ahead with expectancy because i know that God is my helper.  
>
>For more information on this astounding miracle please write to Messianic Time
>
>If you are in need of a miracle, let me know at 1:100/519 or 8:7002/1.  God is

Harvey, could you repost this with linefeeds so it can be read?

Thanks!

-- Bruce Tiffany

P.S.  I tried to send this reply in e-mail, but it bounced.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  ...)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<KRULWICH.92Dec30111428@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan5121023@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan6105007@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan7212418@polaris.utu.fi>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:07:59 GMT


ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:

> > Ex 2:8 is when Pharoh's daughter asks Moses's sister to fetch a Jewish
> > nurse for Moses.  The Torah says "and the alma ran to get the baby's
> > mother."  What exactly does Miriam's virginity have to do with anything?
> > Obviously the verse is saying that the young woman ran to get Moses's
> > mother.  Again, I don't see how it makes sense to mean "virgin," let alone
> > that it "can only be a virgin."
> 
> Miriam obviously was a virgin. 

Why?

Can you give me evidence that she wasn't married?  Or that she hadn't been
raped by an Egyptian?  Or that she wasn't two and a half years old and thus
not within marriagable age (which is part of Harvey's definition of "alma")?

Even more so, WHY WOULD THE TORAH REFER HERE TO HER VIRGINITY?  It doesn't
matter whether she was a virgin or not, the point is that G-d chose to use a
particular word, and there's no reason to think He would discuss her virginal
status in the midst of the story here.

Think about it.  Picure the scene, and then think of what you would write if
you were writing it down.  Would you mention Miriam's virginal status?


> > Ps 68:26 discusses women playing music.  What does their virginal status
> > have to do with anything?  Why can it "only mean virgin?"
> 
> What do you think those girls were, zonot ?

Why weren't they married women?  Evidence please.

And, again, why would the Tanach refer to their virginal status?


Obviously you can look at any instance of the word "alma" and convince
yourself (and others) that the woman in question was a virgin.  But that's not
evidence that the word _means_ virgin, any more than it's evidence that it
means "woman wearing a dress and kerchief on her head" or "woman with hair on
her head but without a beard or mustache."  I certainly think that Miriam,
Rachel, etc all had hair on their heads and did not have beards or mustaches,
but that's no reason to think that that's part of the definition of "alma."


Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:16:46 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 BK> In other words, Harvey's citation is gibberish.  I also made a 
 BK> second claim:

In other words you are just a cultic individual who attacks the individual rather than dialogue on the claims it self.  An ol trick Bruce but not very acceptable.

>> Sorry copied the wrong reference..  The references are to a 
15th century
>> Talmud, that is in Aramaic, and Hebrew... and was not 
translated into
>> english.

I don't understand Bruce i gave you the references in Torah and Tanakh for you to look up.  are you lazy or something or just plain beligerant...

 BK> Then, Harvey reveals some truth:

 BK> Aha.  Here we have it.  The "Talmudic quotes" that Harvey gave 
 BK> are in fact _not_ from the Talmud!  If they're from an old 
 BK> document of some sort, fine, that's interesting, but why have 
 BK> you claimed that they're from the Talmud?

Not true Bruce,  they are from the Talmud as researched by Oxford University in 
England...  If i could get there i would hop on a flight and do the research first hand.  But instead i must wait for a collegue who teaches at Oxford, to come up with the info and you will be the first to know.  That is reasonable isn't it?

And you are being very intellectually dishonest Bruce, as you know the references i gave you are in fact in the Talmud, and we will pull them out for all to see.  But i bet you won't apolygize thats for sure.

--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Non-existant Talmud Quotes (was Supposed Talmud (was Almah In Isa))
Date: 9 Jan 93 02:24:38 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Bill Carlson...



 BC> I think, (in part), Harvey was perhaps referring to the 
 BC> following:

Thanks Bill, those are exactly the verses i was looking for.  And i am still searching out who Moses Hadarshan was.  Can you help, and is there a book he wrote, that i can get? 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Non-existant Talmud Quotes (was Supposed Talmud (was Almah In Isa))
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:33:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu

 BK> Date: 7 Jan 93 16:43:10 GMT
 BK> Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
 BK> Message-ID: <KRULWICH.93Jan7104310@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
 BK> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 BK> 
 BK> 
 BK> First, in trying to prove that the idea of a virgin birth is found
 BK> in the Talmud, Harvey said:
 
I wouldn't be too hard on Harvey, after all, if you were some kind of
a Maven, you would have known where the quotes came from, right? :-)

I think, (in part), Harvey was perhaps referring to the following:

        R. Huni in the name of R. Joshua said that this man is the King
        Messiah of whom it is said Ps. 2:7, This day have I begotten
        Thee. -Tal. Bab.;  He (God) heals with the same wounds; so you
        will find in Israel, they sinned by a virgin, and were punished
        in a virgin, so He comforts them by a virgin according to
        Jeremiah 31:21,22.-Turn again O virgin of Israel, ect., A woman
        shall compass a man.  Joshua ben Levi (in Gen.c.41.) apud
        Moses Hadarshan.  (See also: Zohar [in Gen.fol.-3,4.]).

             The idea that Messiah would have no earthly father is
        presented to us by Rabbi B'rekhyah: "The Holy One said to
        Israel, 'You have spoken before Me saying, We are orphans and
        have no father [Lamentation 5:3]: The Redeemer whom I shall
        raise up out of your midst will have no father also, as it is
        said, Behold, the man whose name is Branch, and He shall branch
        up out of his place [Zechariah 6:12]'".  -From the Suffering
        Servant of Isaiah, According to Jewish Interpreters, S.Driver
        and A.Neubauer, Hermon Press, New York, 1877.  -{Messiah, A
        Rabbinic And Scriptural Viewpoint, Burt Yellin, Published by:
        Congregation Roeh Israel 8556 E. Warren Ave. Denver Co. 80231.
        (303)-337-6254}.

There; there are sources, and secondary sources for you.

... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Non-existant Talmud quotes (was Supposed Talmud (was Almah in Isa))
Date: 10 Jan 1993 23:35:13 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Harvey Smith writes:

> ... I just got verification from
> an orthodox Rabbi on the Talmudic quotes.

Great.  Who is this fellow, and how might we contact him?

While you're at it, how about the name and number of
the Conservative synagogue president whom
you quoted a while back?

>  Am in the process in
> finding out where they are exactly in the Talmud,...

OK.

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:02:50 GMT
Organization: University of Turku

In article <141659.2B3FA73F@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
> The below quotes are taken from the English folio edition of the Talmud vol ii
> p 386...

> "Truth shall spring out of the earth",  R. Yoden, saith he, notes upon this place, that it is not said, Truth sahll be born, but shall spring out; because the generation and the nativity of the Messiah is not to be as other creatures in the world, but shall be begot without carnal copulation; and therefore no one hath mentioned his father, as who must be hid from the knowledge of men til himself shall come and reveal him.  And upon Genesis: "Ye have said (saith the L-rd), we are orphans, bereaved of 
> ther; such a one shall your redeemer be, whom i shall give you, so upon Zechariah "Behold my servant whose name is the Branch:" and out of Psalm CX "Thou art a priest after the order of Melchi Zedek:" he saith, R. Berachiah delivers the same things, and R Simeon Ben Yochai upon Genesis more plainly; viz "That the Spirit, by the impulse of a mighty power, shall come forth of the womb, though shut up, that will become a mighty prince, the King Messiah"

> Hence we can all plainly see that the concept of the Virgin birth is strictly Theologically a Jewish concept of Messiah, and not a gentile christian one..

> Your responses are welcome, and if anyone has any other Talmudic information
> on the above, please post it here or net mail it to me..

Just saw an interesting thing... Guess what were the last words of R. 
Yochanan ben Zakkai ?

"Remove the vessels so that they shall not become unlean, and prepare a
throne for Hezekiah the king of Judah who is coming."  (Brachot 28b)

Now, it seams clear that this refers to the Messiah. Why ? A key to
the problem is Is 7:14 -- perhaps Hezekiah was seen as a kind of 
fulfillment to the prophesy, but since he didn't fit well enough,
the prophesy remained unfulfilled. Any other ideas ?

- Laura

--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: David Johnson
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:57:38 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:2012/0


 AM> Harvey.Smith@f519.n100.z1.fidonet.org

 HS> And how can i respond net mail within this context?

Send it to your UUCP echogate...whoever that is, by addressing it to
UUCP of x:xxxx/xxxx.  Then, on the top line of text, put
TO: whomever.whatever@whichever.somedomain


DJ

--  
David Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: David.Johnson@f0.n2012.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: Gene.Gross@launchpad.unc.edu (Gene Gross)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas 
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 01:58:57 GMT

In article <4TgywB15w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>> I disagree.  The point I was making is that Hitler and his regime did
>> not use Christian or Christ-like values when they devised their Nazi
>> state.
>
>Sez you.
>
>Hitler said he was obeying the divine will of the lord in setting up the Nazi
>state and putting the unclean and unworthy to death.

Actually, Hitler was very opposed to Christianity. In several conversations,
Hitler made it plain that he thought Christians weren't any better than 
any other religious group. However, he saw a need for them to help him in 
his rise to power, but never mistake this for agreement with the doctrines 
of Christianity. Quite the contrary is true -- Hitler is well-known to have
participated in and studied with several occult groups that were heavily
Anti-Semitic and Aryan.

If Hitler said anything at all about a "lord," it was not the LORD, but
rather the god of this world to whom he was referring.

Dumnezeu este cu noi!

Gene Gross



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 6 Jan 1993 15:26:23 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <LJMORLY.93Jan6134759@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>Thus the era we are living in determines what is the truth, right ?

I think this is a rather weak attempt to engage me in the relativist
versus absolutist controversy. Sorry, I abstain. I stand by my point
which is that modern scholarship has the capacity for casting 
additional and new light on ancient sources. In some cases this
comes from new disciplines and technologies. In some cases it comes
from simple "spade" work such as archaeology.

>Who cares ? People who trust Rabbis' advice and are blind to see their
>motives in these kind of issues can be lead astray. 

This sounds like some sort of mystical mumbo jumbo or coded 
language to me.

>It dinna v'it dayanna. First of all, Harvey is a scholar

By whose definition?

> which refutes
>your "consensus of all modern scholarship". 

Hardly, we've already agreed that Harvey belongs to some period
of medieval "scholarship." You shoudn't mind that since you 
evidently think that all scholarship is the same.

> Second, the fact the 'almah'
>means 'virgin' has been proven here on AM. You can tell that to those 
>beloved scholars of yours.

Nothing of the sort has been proven. It has been asserted. The
alleged proof is worthless.

-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 6 Jan 1993 13:51:32 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Harvey Smith writes:

RAL>> Who authored the text that was *not* quoted?  That's where
RAL>> the Christian theology is found, not in the quoted text.

HS> I do not understand what you are attempting to convey to me?

I'm conveying that the source of the passage you reprinted was not
made clear when you posted it.  It appears from your more recent posts
to have been an essay by some random Oxford Hebraics scholar, not a
Talmudic passage.

So, for the sake of scholarship, how about some simple information?
After all, at least one poster seems to think you're a scholar.

- From where did you get the excerpt?
- Who wrote it and when was it written?
- Which Scriptural passages are discussed?
- Which Talmudic passages are discussed?

Rob

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<LJMORLY.93Jan6195742@polaris.utu.fi> 
	<1ifdgbINNau4@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: 7 Jan 1993 03:28:04 UTC

What an entertaining thread this has been. It just goes to show you, you
can fool some of the people some of the time ...

In case anyone is really interested, this is the correct, free from
exegesis, translation of the Hebrew (Masorah and Qumran) into modern
English:

JPS TANAKH: ISBN: 0-8276-0252-9
Isaiah7:14 - Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord!
Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son.
Let her name him Immanuel.

Now, one would assume that if the young woman was in fact a virgin,
Isaiah the great prophet would have pointed this out since a virgin with
child would be rather unusual.

Of course there will be those who insist on seeing things that are not
written here and they are free to imagine whatever they want. The
history of Christianity is not one of honesty or fidelity to the written
word. There seems little reason to expect this to change. Certainly
pulling the wool over your eyes keeps them warm and fuzzy.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Organization: University of Turku
	<LJMORLY.93Jan6195742@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1ifdgbINNau4@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> <fXDgaIB@quack.sac.ca.us>
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:45:23

In article <fXDgaIB@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> What an entertaining thread this has been. It just goes to show you, you
> can fool some of the people some of the time ...

> In case anyone is really interested, this is the correct, free from
> exegesis, translation of the Hebrew (Masorah and Qumran) into modern
> English:

You must be a newcomer here...

> JPS TANAKH: ISBN: 0-8276-0252-9
> Isaiah7:14 - Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord!
> Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son.
> Let her name him Immanuel.

'Lachen yiten Adonai hu lachem ot (:) hine ha'alma hara veyoledet ben
vekarat shmo Imanuel.'

Lachen = therefore, thus
yiten = will give
Adonai hu = the Lord himself
lachem = you (plural)
ot = sign
hine = behold
almah = virgin 
hara = was pregnant/will be with child
veyoledet = and gives birth
ben = son
vekarat = and called/will call
shmo = his name
Imanuel = God with us

'Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold the virgin will
be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel.'

> Now, one would assume that if the young woman was in fact a virgin,
> Isaiah the great prophet would have pointed this out since a virgin with
> child would be rather unusual.

I'll continue this in other replies, but for one thing it could not
have been any sign if some zona would have got a baby, and there's
no mention of anybody called Immanuel during that time. See also below.

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:39:22 GMT
	<LJMORLY.93Jan7194523@polaris.utu.fi> <fXIbMsg@quack.sac.ca.us>
Organization: University of Turku

In article <fXIbMsg@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan7194523@polaris.utu.fi> 
> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >In article <fXDgaIB@quack.sac.ca.us> 
> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> >> Now, one would assume that if the young woman was in fact a virgin,
> >> Isaiah the great prophet would have pointed this out since a virgin with
> >> child would be rather unusual.
> >I'll continue this in other replies, but for one thing it could not
> >have been any sign if some zona would have got a baby, and there's
> >no mention of anybody called Immanuel during that time.

> The sign is straightforward if one continues with the text:

> Isaiah 7:10 (JPS:TANAKH):
> [Is 7 "context" deleted]

I repeat:
1. It could not have been any sign if some zona would have got a baby.
   Moreover, someone with such a name, Immanuel - God with us,
   could not have been just anybody, but the Messiah (see Jer. 23:6).
2. There's no mention of anybody called Immanuel during that time.
   And there are other names given to the child in Is 9:5.

- Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33