From: ka@wan.inf.rl.ac.uk (Kalid Akhram (student-david;until 31/12/92))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Respect for women in India/Pakistan/An
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:59:48 GMT
Reply-To: ka@wan.inf.rl.ac.uk
Organization: SERC Rutherford Appleton Laboratories

In article 10708@gn.ecn.purdue.edu, prasanth@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth) writes:
>>
>>You have only stated the bright side of affairs. Doesnt Islam
>>allow a husband to beat up his wife for not obeying him ? Islam
>>simply does not give equal footing for man and woman.
>>
>>What you have stated shows that Islam's way to "good" or "moral"
>>behaviour is through restriction of personal freedom and fear of
>>punishment. Fear of burning in hell is not a solution to any
>>problem. 

Islam allows a man to beat his wife if she is doing something unislamic,
e.g. having an extra-marital affair. But he is *not* allowed to beat
his wife whenever he feels like it. If he does then he will be punished
for it in the afterlife. I believe the wife can press charges against 
him, under Islamic Shariah. If he is unbearable she may divorce him.

For the best example of Islamic behavoiur, we look at the life of the
prophet. He *never* beat his wives. When he did get angry with them
he once stopped talking to them temporarily. And he encouraged them
to argue and discuss matters of life/religion with them. Islam gives
women clear rights; inheritance, education, land ownership, + much
much more.

Yes, you are right, the Islamic path to "good" behaviour *is* through
SELF-restriction of personal bahaviour and fear of punishment. But that
is only half the story; there is also an incentive to do good; the
pleasures of heaven and living in paradise for eternity and no death.
This is also a great incentive to do good. And the promise to "see"
God, Allah, The Creator is an even greater incentive. Fear of burning
in hell is one hell-of-a good reason not to rape, child-molest. Don't you
think??? It *is* a solution, because if people believed, they wouldn't
do bad things. Can you not see the logic here and that it *would* work??


>>Consider a society where every consenting pair is allowed to have
>>sex. Won't some of the problems that we have be non-existent in such
>>a society ? 
>>
>>I think so. There are (atleast) two ways of looking at this problem.
>>Either you can stick with outdated notions of morality and restrict
>>everything or change your notions of morality.
>>

Yes, Ravi, but is that not the society that we have in the West now? In the
UK, every consenting pair *can* have sex. It follows that people have many
partners. Then, social diseases spread easier. You do not mention marriage.
The number of births outside marriage has doubled since 1982. Imagine the
number of single parent families. I'm not saying that its wrong. But the
additional pressures can lead to child abuse, alcoholism, drugs, very easily.
Is it right for a 14 year old mother to bring up a kid and work and go to
school? This happens man. But it wouldn't in an islamic society. Can you
not see that the "free-for-all" philosophy creates chaos?

>>> There is a market in this "selling sex" trade, the west
>>> knows this, but because it is too greedy and wants to make money 
>>> out of it, the West refuses to acknowledge that it is making society 
>>> rotten.
>>
>>This is your way of looking. Many westerners will disagree.

Are you saying that trade in porn, forced child-porn is good????
Why is it that in UK 1992, grannies of 88 years old are being robbed
and raped? Why is it that AIDS is an epidemic? These things are not
the mark of a "civilised" nation. If this is what "freedom" has given
us, then I for one would rather choose the restrictive world of Islam
where an old person can walk the streets with no fear. I, today, living
in Oxford, a world centre of learning cannot walk around certain parts of
Oxford without fear, and the women certainly cannot -> so many rape incidents.
Then take nationalism, which soon equates to racism, the National Front
here attack Pakis and blacks because of our colour. This is the product
of a "cilvilised" nation. Islam does away with all nationality and colour.
We are all equal, non-muslims have same rights as muslims.
If the men who do bad things *believed* it to be wrong and feared punishement
from God - they would not do the bad things.

BTW - I was born and brought up in the West, I  myself *am* a westerner.
And I have met many others who agree with me. I discovered Islam, I never
had a blind faith in a religion handed to me by my parents, because they
did not hand me down Islam.

The western goverments are too concerned with exploiting the masses and
controling them by enslaving the majority in mudane, repitive work. Then
they are trapped into the producer-consumer system and the interest system.
They are made to want products that they do not even need, they buy them
on credit. Then it starts -> they have to work, in order to pay for the
luxuries that they don't need. And because of interest they can have the
3000.00 product *now* but end up paying 6000.00 over the three odd years.
But I am drifting ... sorry!!

Can you not see that the concept of complete "freedom" does not work?
Look at the crimes being committed today, the fraud, the exploitation of
the third world countries, exploitation of the environment. Bhai, Ravi,
we are in the same boat; Pakistan, India, third world; we are all being
exploited. Our products are bought for peanuts and sold for gold. The
West can dictate the price of our products, because they give us loans,
and money is power.

>>This is a standard argument made by all religious believers. They
>>all think (do they ?) that their religion has all the answers, is
>>flawless and when something is wrong, point fingers elsewhere.

Hey, I am not pointing the finger elsewhere. It is a *fact* that Islam
is not being practiced. And after careful, lengthy observation I have
concluded that this is one of the reasons why Pakistan (and other muslim)
countries are rife with problems. Our belief is that "Success is in Deen
(Islam)", we have gone away from the system that would give us success ...
so we are in trouble.

>>> Your views please. I want to hear alternative solutions for solving mens
>>> behaviour.
>>
>>Shock treatment.
>>

You've completely missed the point of my discussion!!!!
You've told me that my religious argument is not the answer, and the best
you can do is *shock treatment*, come on man. If you cannot come up with a
better solution then at least try and see the good in mine.

Yours,

Khalid
nationality: human
birth place: planet earth

Peace to all human-kind, regardless of colour, belief, height, sex, weight,
hairstyle, choice of aftershave, perfume, deodorant ... whatever

*===============================================================*
# Khalid Akram (Lahori)		#
# ka@uk.ac.rl.inf		#	Har Kisi Ko, Nahin Milta
# Uni. of West England		#	Yaha Pyar, Zindagi Main
# Rutherford Appleton Labs	#
# 0235-445867			#
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh