HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bear story
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:34:01 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Sep26.041940.8904@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, ejohnso@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Eric Johnson) writes:

> For those who might not have seen the article, what makes the story remarkable
> is how the kid did it.  Seems that he and his 3-year-old sister were sitting
> on the dock eating the chips and salsa, when the bear showed up. The two 
> children jumped into the lake, and were followed by the bear, which 
> managed to snag the girl's lifejacket it it's mouth. The boy grabbed his sister
> pulled her free and then proceeded to growl(!!) at the bear until it backed off
> When they got back to shore, the bear followed and the boy again stood his
> ground and growled at the animal until it backed off again.  The two children
> then ran into their cottage, bear in hot pursuit.


Was this a black bear or a grizzly?

From what I've read black bears are more likely to take a predaceous
interest in children than adults, for obvious reasons, but that they
aren't terribly determined predators and can usually be bluffed out of
it.  My reference, "Bear Attacks", mentions one woman who chased off a
blackie that was after her child by swatting it in the face witha 
broom!


-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			- Neutral saying in WWII
From: mssmith@afterlife.ncsc.mil (M. Scott Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Bear bags?  Huh?
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:54:30 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond


   First, let me say that I find this newsgroup very interesting.  Being
raised in Colorado, I feel a deep attachment to the mountains and issues
relating to them.  I really enjoy reading about peoples' experiences in
the backcountry, and I think the recent discussions about gender roles
are interesting as well.

   With that out of the way, I have a question -- it has to do with
bears.  I've seen bearbags mentioned several times; what are they?  I
assume that you put your food in some kind of bag and tie it up in a tree
away from the campsite; is this correct?  Or are they some kind of bait
just to keep the bears away from the campsite?

   Also, what are the dangers of bears in the backcountry?  When I was
younger I had a confrontation with a Grizzly Bear at Yellowstone (I think
that's where it was); I didn't really feel too frightened.  What are
the differences betweens black bears and grizzlies, in terms of
aggression, etc.?

Thanks,

Scott
From: rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Whitehurst)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Identifying snakes
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:57:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <1992Oct6.04854.9229@ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
[copperhead stories]
>copperhead, also in the Red River Gorge. <flamebait#1> I had my young (but
>well disciplined) boxer dog with the group camping. A young copperhead crossed
>the trail and was sunning itself. As my dog became aware of the snake, it 
>naturally wanted to play with the snake. To make a long story a bit shorter,
>the snake was quite upset at my "stick" attempts to clear it over the cliff.
>It got into a dense bit of brush near several tents. Better than risk it
>getting into a tent later (or maybe just to ease our minds) the concensus was
>that I should shoot it. Which I did. With my trusty P226 Sig. I never leave
>that I should shoot it <flamebait#2>. Which I did with my trusty P226 Sig. I
>never leave home without it. :)
>By the way, after I killed the snake I did confirm that it was indeed a
>copperhead. It was the first time I got to study one so close. I did feel
>kinda guilty about killing it though. What would you have done?

	Leave the snake alone.  Copperheads are not particularly
aggressive, and it would have left the area itself for a quieter spot,
most likely.  At least you could have eaten what you killed! ;-)

-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
From: sawicki@src.dec.com (Filip Sawicki)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Wolves : how to cope with ?
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:48:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: src.1992Oct5.224844.29392
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center



Hey,

   this group is full of good advices how to cope with bears, poison oaks, ticks
etc. But what about a good old friend, a wolf? In the regions where I hike,
wolves are a real threat, especially in spring. They are interested not in your
food (like bears) but rather just in you. And there is no easy escape. You can
climb the tree, but the wolves will not give up too quickly. Any advices?

   As for bears, one more hint not mentioned here: you can escape in case of real
troubles; just run _downhill_. Bear's front legs are shorter than rear ones, so
runing downhill the animal has a tendency to flip and roll. After two or three
such unpleasant experiences, the bear will resign and go away.

fi.

P.S. Yes, I saw "Dances With Wolves", but this does not help.
From: rtp1@quads.uchicago.edu (raymond thomas pierrehumbert)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:12:16 GMT
Reply-To: rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


I read a very disturbing piece of news picked up by the
Chicago Tribune today.  It is potentially even more
disastrous in its impacts than the US forest service
timber management practices.

The Bush administration is apparently in the final stages
of promugating regulations that would open all parks and
national forests to strip mining, unless the government
comes up with money to buy out the mining rights.  The
background to this is that Congress originally protected
these lands in their strip mining bill about 15 years ago,
with the exception that companies with "valid prior
rights" could go ahead with mining.  The bill left this
term very diffuse and difficult to interpret.  The
implementation regulations interpreted this as meaning
that companies already mining at the time of passage
could continue, but none others.  However, courts
concluded that this was in violation of the constitutional
protections against confiscation of property (this is
no doubt part of the general expansion of the notion
of private property rights that has come with the
right-wing judges appointed by Reagan and Bush.  I do not
see how anybody has a "right" to devastate public lands
by strip mining.  The mineral rights may indeed be
private property, but it seems to me perfectly valid
to subtract from their value on the market, the value
of the environment that is destroyed by extracting
the coal)

The upshot is that the new Bush regulations will allow
strip mining unless the rights are bought out.  Manuel
Lujan claims that the total coal rights on national park
land are only worth $11million, but a court awarded
$150million to a company for similar rights on national
forest land last year.  The Tribune article claims
that coal companies don't really want to strip mine
on park land, as it would be a public relations disaster,
but would threaten to do so in order to milk the
government for large payments.  But what of strip mining
on national forest lands not included in the park system?
Does this happen now?  How much will it happen under 
the new regulations.

It seems to me that this is a dire threat. Given
the courts' interpretation of property rights, I 
do not know what form of legislative remedy is possible.
I think that the only one possible would be to tax
the coal industry at a level high enough to buy out
the mineral rights on public lands, but of course
Bush would veto anything like this.

Does anybody know more about this issue?  Does anybody
know which organizations are fighting strip mining
on public lands, and how effective they are?  This
seems pretty urgent.
.
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Stackable Camp Cooking Gear
Date: 25 Sep 92 20:58:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

> I guess it's just a question of how you enjoy the wilderness more.

Amen.  We visit for different reasons, and that's OK.  I enjoy good,
wholesome food in restaurants (and somewhat more wholesome if less good
at home :-).  The backcountry to me is a meal for the non-gustatory
senses.  Out there I eat to survive and to avoid hunger.  I put my time
into the scenery and the exercise, not into cooking and cleaning.

> If only I could take you camping and show you the way backpacking food
> is supposed to taste, you would cast off your minimalist past, and
> proudly join the ranks of the Camping Epicurian Society.

Dubious.  Those rare occasions when I've been camp-saddled with
epicurians I've regretted it.  I mean, there you are in the heart of
Canyonlands with fourteen others, and the group can't take off canoeing
because one of the canoes is upside down as a table for breakfast, which
takes two hours to prepare and clean up.  Sure I eat heartily, after
all, there it is, but I'd rather put the time into hiking, exploring,
canoeing, ...  and do pop-tarts (cold) for breakfast.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry


  I have the Asolo AFS101s and haven't had a problem with them leaking.  
They seem to dry out pretty fast and seem to be reasonably warm.  According 
to other people I've encountered, they are more flexible than your average 
plastic boot.  Still, on an absolute scale they are pretty stiff so that 
probably says something about plastic boots in general - good for front 
pointing but not very good for French technique.  

  They are certainly not very comfortable for extended trail walking.  My boots
bother me high around the ankles (lower calf?) when I'm on the trail (possibly
because I have a longer stride).  I also have trouble with my little toes (I
have wide feet) - they rub and get sore (no blisters usually).

  One of the mountain rags (either R&I or Climbing) had a review of plastic
boots within the last 6-8 months.  You should check it out.

SC
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:25:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: hellgate.1992Sep29.132514.17586
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>I don't like the result but I can understand the legal logic.  I
>think!
>
>What seems to have happened was that in establishing the parks, the
>government went through the process of compensating property holders
>of the surface rights.  They did not compensate the holders of
>mineral rights and infact never acquired the mineral rights.
>Essentailly the govt bought the surface but not what lies below the
>surface.  This was thought to be a neat manuveur since the
>governmentcontrolled the surface, it could simply deny access to the holders
>of the rights to the mineral below the surface.  It appeared to be away
>to avoid paying for the rights yet getting the benefits for the
>public.
>
>What has now happened is that it looks like the court sees denying
>access as equivalent to siezure.  If it is siezure, the constitution
>requires compensation.  I don't know Luhan's true motives but the
>alternatives seem to be to pay compensation or permit access (i.e.,
>minning).  Perhaps the prime purpose is not to open up mines but to
>get Congress to fund compensation.

As I read it, your interpretation is correct.  They are doing this as
an adjustment to the way the courts are interpreting the law. Which
in this case happens to be the owner of the mineral rights.  One case
that came to court already cost the taxpayers $150 M.  The mining companies
I believe stated that mining in a national park would be a PR disaster.
However they seem to want the $$ from the taxpayer for their mineral
rights.  (Sounds more like legalized blackmail).  Maybe the thing
to do it to right the companies that own the rights to donate them to the
gov. and use the tax right off (maybe comgress could even authorized as
large tax break as some insentive).  In the long run everybody might win
for once.

Although I am not infavor of mining in the national parks.  I must admit
am in favor of making sure people are justly compensated for land/mineral
seizures by the government when necessary.

BTW, for all those who enjoy gold and silver and are opposed to mining
guess what the number one use of the gold and silver mined in the USA
is ?  Yup, jewelry.  There is an excellent treatise of mining in recent
isuue of Wilderness (from the Wilderness Society).

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah



"I always wanted to climb those peaks ...
	 just didn't think I would do them all in one day."

	My climbing partner after hiking/climbing in the Wasatch.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Subject: Re: Wolves : how to cope with ?
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:23:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.224844.29392@src.dec.com> sawicki@src.dec.com (Filip Sawicki) writes:
>this group is full of good advices how to cope with bears, poison oaks, ticks
>etc. But what about a good old friend, a wolf? In the regions where I hike,
>wolves are a real threat, especially in spring. 

Please tell me WHERE it is that you hike that wolves are so abundent.
I know plenty of folks that would travel many many miles to catch a glimpse
of a wolf in the wild.  I ventured 4000 miles to try and see them
last year in Alaska.   No luck.  But in Denali, I did see some wolf tracks.

Best way to deal with a wolf: carry a big heavy camera.   
Then if you ever do see a wolf after lugging it around for hundreds of miles, 
and maybe snap one picture  (realizing though, that you have the 
wide angle lens on the camera instead of the telephoto, but knowing 
the telephoto is deep in you backpack and it would take 5 minutes 
to get it out and switch them), as the wolf is disappearing into the bushes.
Then when you get back home, and after telling your friends all 
about your great wolf experience, you'll finally get your pictures back, 
the animal will be the size of a blurry pin head, and your friends will 
look at it, and say, "This is it?". 

>  P.S. Yes, I saw "Dances With Wolves", but this does not help.

An entertaining films, yes, but a better film is "Never Cry Wolf",
based on the excellent book by Farley Mowat.   He has some great 
ways of keeping the wolves from the door.   Hint: drink plenty of beer.

John S. Watson, Civil Servent from Hell          ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov
HOMEBREW NAKED! --- Ursus cerevisiae nudium  (The Bare Beer Bear)

#include <stddsclm.h> 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com (Chris Fedde)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Organization: USWEST Marketing Resources
NntpPostingHost: engineer.mrg.uswest.com
Date: 03 Oct 92 04:59:50 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.144609.466@ico.isc.com> carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes) writes:
>	derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) writes:
>>
>>The sky is touched, developed and corrupted,  believe it.  
>
>But the sky has a nice selfcleaning feature.  Leave it alone for a
>generation or two, and all that manmade junk will be gone.

The sky is touched, developed, and exploited, but not by us.

	chris
 
Chris Fedde, USWEST MRG, chris@mrg.uswest.com, voice 3037842823
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: safety 
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 23:08:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep22.165904.26003@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM () writes:
>Don't single-sex groups have to deal with these issues?  I've read a number
>of Valerie's posts over the past several days and most of them bother me
>because of the way she stereotypes behavior.  In my experience, *individual
>personality* is much more important than gender in determining a person's
>desirability as a hiking partner.

 I think of this as "survival value" or "survival potential."  I did not
see her as stereotyping behavior but looking closely at roles
(questioning authority) and traditional values.  It's the decision making
and the communication of courtesy which interests me because there come
sometimes where time or other resources are at the essence.  Morality is
one of the great equalizers of humanity.  That's the first stage.
The next come the 50/50 or 60/40 splits for weight or paying the gas. ;^)

>Barry Shelton                                        Question Authority!
>barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com                   Resist much, obey little.
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
						Both lines make a great
						contrast.
				"Don't walk over this cliff."
				"Right!"

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
From: airey@woof.asd.sgi.com (John Airey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Animals (summary) (my choice)
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:50:24 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: woof.asd.sgi.com


In article <1992Sep28.163227.15854@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov writes:
> SO far we have readers who would be:
> Flyers:
> 	Cliff swallow
> 	Buzzard
> 	2 Eagles
> 	Mallard duck
> 	Turkey Vulture
> 	Great Horned Owl
> 	Spotted Owl
> 	Snowy Owl
> 	Red tailed hawk
> 	Fulvous Whistling-Duck
> 	Raven
> 	Peregrine Falcon
> 	Bat
> 
> NA ground species
> 	Yellow bellied marmot
> 	Moose
> 	Jack Rabbit
> 	Bunny rabbit
> 	Bighorn sheep
> 	Mountain Goat
> 	2 Otter (maybe 1 river)
> 	Mule (female)
> 	Donkey
> 	Sloth
> 	Raccoon
> 	Poodle
> 	2 Lynx (1 Canadian)
> 	cougar or panther (black, of course)
> 	2 coyotes
> 	Grizzly Bear
> 	Black bear
> 	Wolverine
> 	4 Wolves (1 Timber)
> 
> Ocean species
> 	Sperm Whale
> 	2 Dolphin
> 	Manta Ray
> 	Man-O-War (Jellyfish)
> 
> African/Asian species
> 	2 Elephant (1 - African)
> 	Lion
> 	Oryx
> 	2 Tiger (1- white)
> 	Snow Leopard
> 
> Plants:
> 	Lichen
> 	Western Red Cedar
> 
> Amoeba:
> 	Giardia lamblia
> 
> Reptiles
> 	Tuatara lizard
> 	Galapagos tortoise
> 
> Amph:
> 	Salamander
> 
> How should I characterize these?  (actually I should look up the first)
> 	Ring Tailed Lemur
> 	T. Rex
> 	Yeti (Aliens too a bit too ficticous)
> 
> Well, not that I object, but trying to be realistic.
> I was wonder who and when one would chose Giardia [I had email with
> Watson about a Disney cartoon where Merlin and a witch were trying
> to become increasingly powerful and larger animals, then Merlin became
> a disease.]
> 
> BTW: I am not keeping a concordance between your login names and
> the above.  That's not Kosher in my opinion for security reasons.
> 
> --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
>   Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
>   Scientific Programming
>   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
> Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
> 			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
> 			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf

   Nobody seems to have picked the CA Sea Lion, or Orca, two very
   high-performance animals.
   The Sea Lion is certainly less bloodthirsty than the Orca, but
   Mr. Great White is a real threat. As a surfer in Northern CA,
   I don't want to come back as bait again, so I'll be bloodthirsty
   and choose the Orca. And to anybody who says the Orca is not
   bloodthirsty, tell it to the Grey Whale and calf that got chowed in
   Monterey Bay this past spring.
From: rtp1@quads.uchicago.edu (raymond thomas pierrehumbert)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Baby Joggers on Trails
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:36:13 GMT
Reply-To: rtp1@midway.uchicago.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


I have a friend who took a baby jogger on a day hike on the
Pacific Crest Trail (out of Hart's Pass, WA).  
 
It worked, but it had the problem that its wheelbase was
too broad for much of the trail, and so the thing often
had to be balanced on two of its wheels.  

As for authorization, my own feeling is that they are
rather similar to mountain bikes.  They are a
mechanical intrusion of a mild sort.  Certainly,
I don't think it is right (or legal) to take them
into wilderness areas; they aren't significantly different
from deer carts, which are prohibited after all.  But
if I were hiking in an area where mountain bikes are allowed,
I don't feel like my experience of the area would be
spoiled by seeing a baby jogger.

Myself, I'd recommend getting a Tough Traveler back carrier
instead, or if you need to carry a load, getting a 
donkey.  Donkeys can carry your kid plus probably 50-60
pounds of gear.
.
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: "Points": the good way to measure time/distance on the trail
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:14:13 EDT(-0400)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) writes:
> I think the real advantage of such a system is that it would help 
> give a newcomer a better idea of what the trail will be like and 
> thus increase the chance of a positive experience.  Nothing worse 
> than finding out that the hike takes much longer than expected. 

I think one more element needs to incorporated into the point system for it
succeed in this way.  That is the trail tread.  A very rocky tread makes for
much more difficult walking than a wide, smooth tread.  A rough tread should
add a point for every some-number of miles.

With that addition, I would be happy to trust a reliable point system for
timing hikes.  Though I still want to know how many feet I gained, just for
my own satisfaction.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
From: andyt@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Andy Teetzel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: The winner is...
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:08:44 GMT
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (SRSD MWTD)




I've reviewed my journal. The winner of the most popular musical group
in the obnoxious campground neighbor boom-box catagory is:

Lynard Skynard
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: CAPILENE POLYESTER UNDERWEAR???
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:15:17 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:
>I have the Capilene Pointelle and am thoroughy pleased.  It is warm
>enough for the coldest it gets here (southern Apps) but not overkill,
>which is often the only alternative.  It is light, packs easily, and
>washes well.  I agree, it doesn't hold odors nearly as bad as my partners
>polypro (could it be that one of us just stinks more?).  

Well, you may have a different scent coefficient, but you are also using
different materials.  Polypro definitely holds odors more than capilene.

>I am concerned with the earlier post that said it was a "coated"
>polyester.  Does this mean that frequent washing will greatly affect the
>product??  I tend to wash mine often.  Any info here?

I believe it is more than just a coating, read the Patagonia literature
for the full poop, but whatever surface treatment they give it is part of
the fiber.  I have some capilene I have had for over 5 years and plenty
of washings and it is still great.  Far superior to some polypro stuff I
have.

I will never buy any wool again ( well except for socks, where it's
incompressibility is tops, and maybe gloves, but I want to try some fleece
ones ).  It holds more water when wet, itches, doesn't wear as well, .....
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann  
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry