From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:00:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.114326.5718@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> y41@aix320a.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (Jeffrey Hazelwood) writes:
>In article <SMITTIE.92Dec11173519@beach.csulb.edu>, smittie@csulb.edu (Smittie) writes:
>
>|> >The problem with the U.S. educational system is that everyone is afraid
>|> >to put the blame where it lies.  The students are the fucking problem.
>|> >Lazy, don't-give-a-shit-attitudes are present among the majority of
>|> >students.
>
>I stand by this.

Then the only lazy person around then, is yourself, who will not expend
the effort to even UNDERSTAND anything, rather do the more convenient
clinging to that tired dogma.

>
>|> 
>|> If there is anything I've learned in 33 years of life it is this. People who
>|> offer simplistic answers to complex problems usually don't understand the
>|> problem. 
>
>What's complex about being lazy?  That's exactly the problem with the majority
>of Americans.  They think all of the problems are sooooo complex.  That's why
>absolutely none of the politicians have ever eliminated ONE problem from 
>America.  Drugs, guns, homeless people, education system, health care, national
>debt, auto industry, electronic industry, computer chip industry, etc., etc.
>The only thing they know how to do is to spend more money. Talk about a
>dumb solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your analysis of the situation is not unique nor is it correct.  It is
extremely fashionable and always has been fashionable to call the new
generation "Lazy Good For Nothings."  In every case the accusers were
proven incorrect, I see no difference now.  

>
>|> Moreover, the simplistic answers that they present are seldom of any
>|> use in finding the real answers.
>
>What exactly are the real answers??? If the answer is simple, why go looking
>for some dumb complex solution?  If your computer is not plugged in, why
>go complaining to the electric company? If you haven't learned in 33 years
>of life that most of the answers are simple, then I wish you better luck in
>your next 33 years.

Ooooh!  Most answers are NOT complex nor do you get an understanding of
them (who they affect, how it came about, how to cure it best) by simplistic,
dogmatic explanations ("Those damn kids are just f*cking lazy! In my day
we worked 10,000 days for one penny and we LIKED it!").  Get real, sir.

>Smittie, you missed the point of the argument.  Everyone says the system is
>bad, the teachers are terrible.  Yet, when I went to school in the states,
>I constantly witnessed foreign students doing VERY well in those so called
>shitty American school systems.  (and a few studious Americans!)  The problem 
>is that the politicians, etc. always make a simple problem into one of such 
>complex proportions that they then become perplexed as to what the solution 
>could possibly be!  Whether or not a student learns is up to the student.  
>How much time does the average American student spend outside of class reading, 
>studying, etc.?  Very little! Because that's not COOL! God forbid that Americans 
>aren't cool.  Tell an American how much the average Japanese studies and the 
>response will likely be, "What a bunch of nerds...". That's why a very large
>proportion of the research done in America is done by foreigners.  The question
>ought to be, How can we make the average American student study more
>efficiently and devote more time to studies in general?  Instead of....how
>much more money can we spend? Why are are teachers lousy?.....$$$$$$

In case no one has tuned you into American History and Culture, this net
is not representative of culture:  Americans have NEVER enjoyed education,
and have been as a whole, less educated than the foreign immigrants who
tend to become professors and such.  Do not confuse this non-scholastic
nature with laziness, it is a common mistake among those not willing or
intellectually unable to examine the 'problems.'  Time and time again it
has been shown that education does not equate with success in buisiness,
for one instance, Bill Gates, dropped out of College after 1 semester and
founded Microsoft.  He is, by all definitions successful, worth $1billion
by 30, yet quit school.  The superficial analysis would pin him as lazy
(how can he quit school?  How lazy!), but he built one of the most powerful
Software companies in the world!  One would be tempted to say he was an 
exception, until you look at all the enterpeneurs and CEOs of buisinesses,
and there seems to be a common thread:  they all did poorly in school, and
most enterpeneurs didn't graduate from college.  

You are totally incorrect in stating that American students are lazy, they
aren't at all.  The education system, however, does have problems, for
one, teachers are low-paid.  This is a real problem, as many highly qualified
potential teachers choose not to teach because there is more $$ elsewhere.
Second, there is a HUGE disparity between districts in a city:  A city
school has half the tax base of a county school to work with (or less!), 
anyone who dismisses this as a 'problem' is stupid or lazy.  Also, in
many families, parents do not help instill good study habits in their
children, who, in their formative years, should develop better study
habits.  

Summary:  American Youth are NOT lazy at all, they just don't like school
much, just like every generation of Americans back to the founding of the
nation.  There are a whole slew of OTHER problems in schools that need to
be fixed in some way rather than some nebulous, and incorrect "Those
students are just lazy."

Get real. 



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>Jeffrey T. Hazelwood                    Universitdt Heidelberg
>EMAIL: y41@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de       Heidelberg, Germany 
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| Brent L. Irvine         | NE PER INGENIUM | The above personal opinions     |
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Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA