From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:08:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.122024.26409@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> >I think that instead of requiring public service, it could
> >be rewarded.
> 
> I think it should be both.  Under my scheme, it
> automatically would be.

  From each according to his ability...
 
> >That is, those who help out by doing some public service are
> >thereby entitled to significantly larger transfer payments
> >from the state if and when needed.
> 
> I think people should get from the state only what they
> need, and that only if need implies having no other means of
> getting it.  I don't think this transfer should depend on
> anything other than being a citizen.

  To each according to his need.

> >Transfer payments to people able to do public service who
> >have choosen not to would be reduced or eliminated.
> 
> I think it should go about like this:  
> 
> You get 20 years of free education (this makes you about
> 25).  You then do about 5 years of public service, which
> includes such things as the present Vista and Peace Corps
> ideas, rebuilding and maintaining infrastrucure, reclaiming
> and cleaning up the land, recycling as necessary, and a host
> of other useful projects.

  Why should there be free education? Why is this Utopian?
Currently we have free education, does that mean we have
a Utopian state on that count? 
  Who defines these "useful projects". Useful to whom?

> The main thrust of the service is (a) to serve others, and
> (b) to learn how the world works (it being a given that the
> formal education taught you how to read and how to think and
> gave you useful historical and cultural background).

  Compelling people to service will teach them how the world
works? Why should I want to serve others? What is my incentive?
[here I know I'll get called a greedy inhumane pig, but if you
cannot provide an answer for this, you are sadly blindered to
human nature.]

> *Every* person who was physically/mentally able would do
> this (so it's not indentured service after all, it's only a
> universal societal norm).  Now you're 30.

  Universal societal norm? What nonsense. Heterosexuality is
a "universal societal norm" too. Does that mean it too should 
be compulsory? You cannot redefine indentured servitude to be
a "universal societal norm" without letting me do the same
with whatever my agenda is. How very elitest to say the least.
  And, by the way, who defines these "Universal societal norms"?

> At this point you choose a career (not earlier).  Careers
> might include any or all of (voluntary) professional
> military work, parenting, or anything else.  If you need
> more training (normally you would), you work for to pay for
> it out of your own pocket.  Now you're 35 and ready to live
> a decent life.

  With half of my life gone. How, um, utopian. Will you guarantee
my decent life? What if I object to how "decent" my life is?
Who will I get to complain too? What can I do about it?
 
> Since everyone would have basic housing, food, physical
> security, and health care heavily subsidized by the state,
> you will expect to pay very high taxes on your income from
> age 35 to age 70.

  Who provides this? What incentive do they have provide it?
 
> Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
> matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
> the getting without doing the giving.  Sorry, can't work
> that way, gotta give, and more than most people think.

  Gads, and you had the audacity to criticize my claim that
Capitalism is an optimal (not perfect, not utopian) solution
in economics for humans. You would think that people would learn
from the xSSR that humanity cannot be made to function this way, 
and that the only way to achieve this "Utopia" is at the point of
a gun.
  Sorry if I find it difficult to believe that "Utopia" has
to have the KGB around to keep it all together.

		Mike, somewhat in disbelief at the clarity
	    	and lunacy Jess presents as "Utopia".
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
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