HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: Re: Strong vs Vector
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:39:07 GMT

The student or secondary drogue release.

Vector - the direction of pull is similar to a leg-strap throw out but is
slightly higher up the passenger harness.

Strong - the direction of pull is easiest straight out from the body.  It is
often used by the tandem pilot as primary.  This can lead to banging knuckles
or worse if passenger is a tad slow to pull.

This is a whole $0.25 worth and I hope the beginning of a thread on the pros
and cons of the twon tandem systems available to-day.  I hold both ratings
with about 250 combined Tandem dives.

I spent a lot of time and travel gathering experience before I bought my own
Tandem Rig.  There is quite a difference between the two systems, and I'm
sure a variety of opinion.  I'd like to hear it.

Bobby Magee
D-371
Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: AFF rigs with TWO AAD's
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 03:03:55 GMT

[Comment on making AAD cutaway first, then pull reserve]

> But stop and think for a second. Suppose that some butt-head fails to
> correctly calibrate the unit.  Your lining up on final for the pea pit
> and, suddenly, at 200 feet, your main releases.  OOPS!

The cypres would not fire under this condition because (presumably) your
descent is < 81mph!

The only "calabration" that the user does on a
cypres is the altitude, so the worst case would be premature deployment.
What I mean is, the cypres will not do anything while you're coming
into the pea pit (assuming you're going slower than 81mph !!!).  So 
I guess I'm saying the cypres can't fire if you're under any functioning
canopy, even in a downplane, right? So the worst calibration error
that could occur is to hfirerelease prematurely in freefall, or 
fire LATE in freefall (in which case you were hosed with or without it.)

Were you speaking of a "butt-head" manufacturer that calibrates the FF
speed indicator wrong?  then you're hosed w/ any AAD

>  But dual-deployments (main and reserve out) are seldom fatal

That's comforting!!!

> But since it was brought up, and since I just registered for the '93
> rigger's convention, perhaps I'll wander over to the Cypre & SSE booths
> in Mar. & ask some questions....

Thats great. I appriciate the input!!

-Eric

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: Re: Pullout/throwout
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:14:38 GMT

I believe the PIA has passed a policy that calls for standardization in the
industry.  It may in fact be supported by the major rig manufacturers.  They
have decided on throw-out as the standard for main deployment.  I believe
that you will still be able to order a pull-out as an option.  It may be that
this will cost extra soon as they streamiline the manufacturing process.
This streamlining may also reduce the cost of a new rig |^).

Bobby Magee

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry Brumitt)
Subject: Re: F A Q (Instructor Aided Deployments?)
Reply-To: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry  Brumitt)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:22:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.153455.18451@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> horn@tegan.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Horn) writes:


   Don't most S/L DZ's use a hanging exit?



We do -- usually people fall when they are trying to swing off of the
step. What I hate is the ones who start handing before they get past
the end of the step, and WHACK their arm on the step when they DO let
go.

And even with static line, it's possible to keep a hand on their back
just about until they're hanging... just requires some coordination.

Hanging exits seems less prone to "new student error" than poised exits.

In any case, here's wishing you (and yours!) a Happy Holiday Season,
and all that good stuff!

Barry, off to California in a few hours....

ps. Dive Early, Dive Often, Dive Safely. :-)







--
Barry Brumitt                        belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu
RI Graduate Student                  (or) bb1v@andrew.cmu.edu
Field Robotics Center                Phone: (412) 268-7144
Carnegie Mellon University           "Who is John Galt?" $ Skydive!

Boring Disclaimer: The opinions contained herein do not necessarily
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  represent those of the FRC, SCS, RI or even CMU.
From: abbott@ms.uky.edu (Joel Abbott)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: rec.skydiving FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
Date: 15 Dec 92 04:50:03 GMT
Organization: The Jimi Hendrix Fan Club

i noticed in the faq that the rec.skydiving archive only has articles
posted since september 1992.  i have all potings (except for the first
65 and one later posting) since july 28th, 1988.  if someone wants to
put them in the ftp archive, send me mail.

-- 
Joel Abbott, DoD#272 -> abbott@ms.uky.edu, abbott@ukma.bitnet, uunet!ukma!abbott
"Diane, I am holding in my hand a box of chocolate bunnies."  -- Agent Cooper
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: horn@tegan.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Horn)
Subject: Re: F A Q (Instructor Aided Deployments?)
Organization: NASA Johnson Space Center
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:34:55 GMT

In article <18620@mindlink.bc.ca> Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee) writes:
>We refer to the exit where tyhe student is hanging from the strut with his
>feet flapping as (what else?) a Hanging Exit.  The only drawbacks to this
>exit that I can see are (a) The student isn't required to put as much effort
>into the exit as they should, ie.  The jump just happens instead of being
>being done.  

Where I learned IAD, we had a lot more 1st jump students than returning
students.  We didn't want the student to have to put as much effort into the
exit.  If a student wanted to pursue skydiving, there were many more jumps
ahead which would allow that student the time to learn all that he/she needed
to learn - but for a first jump, doing a Hanging Exit was all that was
necessary.

>A slight but important differance. (b) During the transition
>from the step to hanging I have seen students try to crawl up on the strut
>and I've seen them fall off into a head down dive. (or almost a Canarosa).

Wow, you've seen this!  I've only been an IAD JM for about a year and a half.
I've never seen this.  Perhaps it's just a product of the climb out procedure
we used, but despite the fact that students TRY to climb up on the strut, they
can't.  Now, I HAVE seen students who didn't hang onto the strut hard enough
and hopped off the step.  The hop gave them enough downward momentum for them
not to be able to hang on - the result was a feet down dive.

>The dynamic exit also allows the J/M to control the student with the left
>hand, assisting in a correct, deployment friendly exit attitude.

I was always able to control the speed that the student climbed out of the
plane with our system.  If they were doing everything right, though, there
wasn't any need to.  It became my job just to keep up with them and let them
go at their own pace.  Occasionally, they would try and rush things and do
something wrong.  Still this was not a problem.  I had my right hand -
carrying the pilot chute - right on their backs.  I had the student's rig in
my hands and even with the pilot chute there it was easy to control the
student if you had control of their rig.

Don't most S/L DZ's use a hanging exit?

--
  _/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/     _/_/_/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/ #include <std/disclaimer.h>
   _/    _/ _/  _/ _/   _/ _/   _/ _/  _/ _/      sparkie
    _/  _/_/   _/_/_/  _/_/    _/_/   _/ _/_/     horn@mickey.jsc.nasa.gov
_/_/_/ _/     _/   _/ _/  _/  _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/    D-14578 - Blue Skies!
From: peterl@devvax.mincom.oz.au
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re:Tom Piras
Date: 14 Dec 92 03:41:55 GMT
Organization: Mincom, Brisbane, Australia


We got the same rumour here in Oz this weekend.All we heard was
that somebody opened underneath him and he hit the canopy.He was a
visitor to our DZ a few years back so quite a few people here
now him and are saddened by the loss.Anymore details will be 
greatly appreciated so i can pass them along to his friends here.

                         Fluro A4167
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Jumpin Dude)
Subject: Re: Pullout/throwout
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 00:13:27 GMT

According to my Javelin order form, pull-out is already an additional
expense.
Tim

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: kcameron@erc.cat.syr.edu (Ken Cameron)
Subject: Re: Rumor that Wally Gubbins bounced??
Organization: Electronic Resource Center, Syracuse
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 23:23:11 EST

Yes I got names mixed up but the question still remains di 'Wally' bounce??
I mix up names alot.
-c ken

-- 
-ken cameron. SkyDiver: Zoo-602, A-8596, D-11839. Skier.
Employer: Computer Task Group.  /cny UNIX Users Group Director.
Disclamer: "I said it, when I said it, so what! Now is different!"
Internet: kcameron@erc.cat.syr.edu
Xref: sparky rec.skydiving:3415 news.answers:4512
From: dparsons@ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au (David Parsons)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: AFF rigs with TWO AAD's:comments?
Date: 13 Dec 1992 01:43:22 GMT
Organization: University of Adelaide, South Australia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au
Keywords: AAD Cypres FXC
Originator: dparsons@ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au

In Adelaide, South Australia there is an AFF/Tandem DZ about 3/4 hr north
of the city at Lower Light.
The Chief Instructor, Greg Smith, uses Parachutes Australia brand SOS systems,
very similar to the Strong student gear (single action cutway and deployment).
Until recently all AFF rigs were fitted with FXC AAD's, fitted to the
main, rather than the reserve.  This location is standard practice in Australia.
Anyway, all the rigs are now ALSO fitted with student Cypres on the reserve.
Main AAD opening heights are set 1000' lower than planned opening height
which is no lower than 3,000' in their AFF course.  The student Cypres is set at
1000'.
Greg is looking for anywhere else that might use this arrangement to make
contact with, to share experiences with (there have been no problems to date)
and is also interested in relevant comments about the safety or otherwise
of this type of rig /AAD arrangement.
I will pass on any Email or newsgroup postings to him.
Thanks
dparsons@ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au
From: dsouth@uoft02.utoledo.edu (Dale Southard Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: AFF rigs with TWO AAD's:comments?
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:33:15 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Dec16.014214.29993@leland.Stanford.EDU>, eap@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
>>
>><my comments on the Cypres & MARS units deleted>
>> 
> I wonder why no AAD manufacturer has installed a "cutaway, then yank 
> the reserve" type of system.  The cypress says it doesn't do anything 
> below 130 ft. that's a good idea for this type of system.  
> The idea seems straightforward.  Use a "dual-release" type of arrangement 
> on the 3-ring (like some tandems have for drogue release) and have 
> the AAD/pin-puller "cutaway" a qtr or half a second before cutting 
> the closing loop (cypres).  

Basically, I would guess that the risks involved with such a system
vastly outweigh any safety increases. The Cypres (again) supposedly
COULD be manufactured in a configuration able to control all of the
freefall handles(main activation, main release, and reserve activation).

But stop and think for a second. Suppose that some butt-head fails to
correctly calibrate the unit.  Your lining up on final for the pea pit
and, suddenly, at 200 feet, your main releases.  OOPS!  Such a 
miscalibration is, of course, possible on "traditional" reserve-only AAD
setups. But dual-deployments (main and reserve out) are seldom fatal 
(I have seen at least three of them that were not) whereas low-cutaways 
generally are if the reserve doesn't have time to deploy (I know of one 
that was and one that wasn't -- USPA prints several that are fatal 
each year).

Drop tests seem to indicate that the chance of main-reserve entanglement,
even with two squares, isn't all that great. In other words, it is
probably safer to run the risk of entanglement than to run the risk of
unintentional cutaway.

But since it was brought up, and since I just registered for the '93
rigger's convention, perhaps I'll wander over to the Cypre & SSE booths
in Mar. & ask some questions....

-- 
/* Dale Southard Jr.                                   Sr. Rigger      */
/* Department of Chemistry                            AFF/I   SL/I     */
/* University of Toledo                                  D-11216       */
/* dsouth@uoft02.utoledo.edu -- "Just another skydiving grad student." */
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: Re: Performance Designs 9-cells. (Non-ZeroP)
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:54:44 GMT

I jump a PD190 as my personal gear.  In short it is by far the best all round
canopy I have jumped.  It'll do a little turf surfing, I get tippie toe
landings at tight demos, and the openings are soft and consistant.  In fact
one of the reasons I considered the Vector Tandems was because the canopies
are made by PD.

Bobby Magee
D-371
Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jan@stout.atd.ucar.edu (Jan Stewart)
Subject: new otter at eloy
Organization: Atmospheric Technology Division/NCAR Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:34:02 GMT

From jan@athena.esig.ucar.EDU Mon Dec 14 08:32:22 1992
Received: from athena.esig.ucar.edu by stout.atd.ucar.EDU (5.65/ NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90)
	id AA25641; Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:32:21 MST
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:29:55 MST
From: jan@athena.esig.ucar.EDU (Jan Stewart)
Message-Id: <9212141529.AA00895@athena.esig.ucar.EDU>
Received: by athena.esig.ucar.EDU (5.65/ NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90)
	id AA00895; Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:29:55 MST
To: jan@stout.atd.ucar.edu
Status: R

>From uunet!s1!apsc.com!BFINLEY@ncar.UCAR.EDU Mon Dec 14 07:03:55 1992
To: jan@ncar.ucar.edu
Subject: posting.
Content-Length: 1196
X-Lines: 28

Jan,

Please post this...

Re: Eloy Christmas

I was just at Skydive Az this weekend and have some great news for everyone
going there for Christmas.  They bought *another* Otter!  This one has the
smaller turbine engines so they are going to swap with the King Air so they
will have two (count them, 2) SUPER OTTERS.  They were flying formations all
weekend and dropping 32, 38, and 40 ways out of the sky!  This upcoming
Christmas week is going to be one we'll be talking about for months.

See you all soon.

Brent

___________________________________________________________________
 Brent Finley                                       _._._._._._._
 Arizona Public Service                            (_|_|_|_|_|_|_)
 NFM - Nuclear Analysis                             ` \` | | '/ '
 Mail Station 1605 (411/6th floor)                   ` \`| |'/ '
                                                      ` \| |/ '
 Phone: (602) 340-4082 or 82-4082                      ` \Q/ '
 FAX:   (602) 340-4002 or 82-4002 (Box 6F)              `'#`'
                                                          ^
 internet: bfinley@apsc.com

Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry Brumitt)
Subject: FAQ
Reply-To: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry  Brumitt)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:26:27 GMT

I've readied the FAQ for posting to news.answers, the archive group
where all FAQ's should go.


You may see the FAQ appear a few times in the next few days until it's
in a form the news.answers moderator approves of.


Jes' keeping ya informed!

Barry

--
Barry Brumitt                        belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu
RI Graduate Student                  (or) bb1v@andrew.cmu.edu
Field Robotics Center                Phone: (412) 268-7144
Carnegie Mellon University           "Who is John Galt?" $ Skydive!

Boring Disclaimer: The opinions contained herein do not necessarily
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  represent those of the FRC, SCS, RI or even CMU. 




Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: esj@mailbox.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Subject: Re: rumour that Piras bounced
Keywords: can someone confirm/deny
Organization: Engineering Computing Services - Univ. of Fla.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 14:30:58 GMT

I heard it to. And everyone at Deland seems to beleive it... The story 
as I have heard it goes (note, this is RUMOR, any and all may be complete 
ficton):

He was in Panama on some teaching/coaching thing. On a 4way at 8000'ish
feet someone who was low on the formation had a premature pack opening.
Tom hit the canopy and/or jumper. Impacted the ground with no parachutes 
open. 

He had a cypress on his rig, but it was not turned on.

Damn.

Ej
From: sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rumor that Wally Gubbins bounced??
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:04:10 GMT
Organization: University of Montana

Pete Reynolds - Wally Gubbins
Leo Dickinson - The man who films/vidoes the 'Wally' movies and
                many other skydiving films.
From: jld@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Jeffrey DeMent)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Telephone # for Eloy
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:38:40 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <18574@mindlink.bc.ca> Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee) writes:
>Can any one post or e-mail the Eloy DZ phone #?
>Thanx in advance.
>Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca
>

Skydive Arizona (Eloy)

(602) 466-3753
(602) 466-4720 : FAX
From: dparsons@ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au (David Parsons)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Skydiving Death : rumour ?
Date: 13 Dec 1992 10:48:06 GMT
Organization: University of Adelaide, South Australia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au
Originator: dparsons@ache.mad.adelaide.edu.au

I've just heard froma normally reliable source of the death of a <very> d
experienced and well known US skydiver (?went through canopy?).  Can anyone
shed some accurate light?
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry Brumitt)
Subject: Re: Rumour that Piras bounced apparently true / CYPRES
Reply-To: belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Barry  Brumitt)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:40:46 GMT

In article <24407@alice.att.com> kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon) writes:


   I still would like to hear some other independent sources confirm this,
   but apparently Tom Piras bounced yesterday (sat.) at some DZ in Fl.
   The details I have is that he was jumping with inexperienced jumpers
   and somehow, somebody dumped under him, and collided with Piras, who
   got knocked out. He did not regain consciousness to pull he parachute.

Heavy-duty circumstancial evidence. Based on the Calendar in Skydiving, there
is/was a "Skydive University Drop in 10- & 20-way, Deland Fl. Dec 12-13". 
On the next page, is a Skydive University "Skydive 100" ad, with Tom Piras as
the "blurb" author. 

So. Pretty clearly, he's involved with Skydive University, which was working
in Florida this weekend with inexperienced jumpers....

I guess if anyone knows anyone at DeLand well, they might call down and see
what the deal is...

   On one of his rigs he had a Cypres, but usually he would not turn it on.

Damn. I keep thinking I should get one of these. Anyone heard any negative
reports recently? Everyone I've talked to who ahs one likes it, but then
again, there's a systematic bias in that data sample. 

    If this news is true, then it is a big loss for the sport. Tom was one
   of the main driving forces behind many good 4-way teams, and he himself
   won the Worldchampionships a couple of years ago.

Agreed. Let's hope the rumor + circumstantial evidence are just that, and that
there's nothing to back it up.

Barry

   -- 
   Peter Kroon  D-12374

   phone: (908) 582 7000 
   Email: kroon@research.att.com
--
Barry Brumitt                        belboz@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu
RI Graduate Student                  (or) bb1v@andrew.cmu.edu
Field Robotics Center                Phone: (412) 268-7144
Carnegie Mellon University           "Who is John Galt?" $ Skydive!

Boring Disclaimer: The opinions contained herein do not necessarily
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=  represent those of the FRC, SCS, RI or even CMU.
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Jumpin Dude)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: new otter at eloy
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:06:48 GMT
Organization: University of Denver

Does anybody have an idea what it costs to acquire a 'Super' Otter?

Does Skydive Arizona really generate enough income to pay for these,
or somebody down there just have a whole lot of dough?

Tim
From: kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: More info about Piras accident
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:46:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24408
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

Unfortunately, the rumours are true. Tom Piras died in an skydive
accident in Panama. 
Apparently he was following out inexperienced jumpers. And one of the
mains got deployed prematurely. Tommy hit the canopy, and then head
first one of the jumpers. It is not sure if that hit knocked him out,
but there was not attempt to deploy his own main.

 What a sad story, and a big loss for everybody that is into skydiving.

-- 
Peter Kroon  D-12374

phone: (908) 582 7000 
Email: kroon@research.att.com
From: bill.farrant@compdyn.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Bill Farrant) 
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: TOM PIRAS
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:50:00 GMT
Reply-To: bill.farrant@compdyn.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Bill Farrant) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Computer Dynamics - Vancouver B.C. - (604)986-9937 (604)255-9937

   Well the news I've seen on the tragedy involving Tom Piras is all
true.
   He was wearing a Cypres but was afraid that it may go off when he was
hanging outside so had turned it off.
   Too add to what has already been echoed on the net, apparently he was
knocked unconscious and regained consciousness at approximately 1000'.
Naturally he had trouble getting oriented and pulled his reserve too
late. He had line stretch when he hit the ground.
   It's a great loss to the skydiving community, we've all heard the
name whether or not we've actually met him. We're all quite possibly
better jumpers because of the knowledge he passed to us through his
experience.

   Bill Farrant