From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Outburst of Baltic fascism
Date: 7 Nov 92 22:39:21 GMT
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics

>
>>This posting below, which is just an example of routine traffic on
>>BALT-L list could serve as another confirmation of what the new
>>Baltic "democracy" is. Unlike Finnish liars whose prolific writings
>>are flooding this forum since recently, Baltic apologets of fascism
>>don't hide their thoughts. I'm glad to see finally the prove which
>>comes from the representative of the very same Baltics, that the
>>latter are, in fact, no better than were Soviets. And they take the
>>Stalin's policies as an example to follow.
>
>Well, I would question your use of the word "routine," and I would
>question that what you post below "confirms" Baltic "fascism." I
>believe that your hatred of the Balts continues to blind you as to
>the effect the deportations of thousands of Balts in June 1941 at the
>orders of Stalin had on the Baltic populations. Yes, I believe the
>Baltics are rightfully angry at the Russians, for the deportations,
>and now for the continued violation of their internationally
>recognized sovereignty by the ongoing presence of about 100,000
>Russian troops.
>
>Many Balts find such behavior unconscionable, and have done hateful
>and stupid things in response. The exclusion of Russians from voting
>in Estonia, special language provisions in Baltic law for
>"minorities," and an overall hostility for Russians on Baltic soil
>are negative and counter-productive activities. However, having said
>that, I would also say this - Russia needs to get the hell out of the
>Baltics, and soon. With anti-state activity in Dushanbe, the
>"Trans-Dniester" region, Ingushetia, Tatarstan, North Ossetia, and
>with Russians fighting with Abkhazi against Georgians, the Russian
>plate is plenty full without continuing to hassle the Balts too.

  Your logic escapes me. What is that "anti-state activity in
Dushanbe" ?   Ingushetia, Tatarstan, North Ossetia, et other
drivel ?  What is "Russian plate" full with ?
  A little suggestion: next time please be more concise.
I usually skip those articles which are both too long and too dull.
  Nevertheless the style of your response confirms that I
was right: the defendants of Baltic "democracies" for the
lack of arguments reiterate to sheer nonsense. Besides,
there is no need already for explaining just everybody here,
what are those newly-"democratic" regimes in Estonia and Latvia.
Even usually biased US media has exposed Estonia and Latvia
enough already. What I'm arguing for are just right terms
and definitions. What Erland Sommarskog calls "silly"
and you above as "hatefull and stupid things" me call more
precise - fascism. Basically you agree with me, don't you ? 
Your pretty long article could be reduced to one simple
statement:  well, Balts are bad, but look, Russian hands
are dirty too. You can discuss "dirty" Russian hands as
much as you want, but this duscussion is about "democracies"
in Estonia & Latvia, isn't it ?

Regards,
Serega & Co

>
>I think this indignation is real, comes from very real circumstances,
>and that continued "Russian imperialist" attitudes about the Baltic
>states do not help solve the problem, nor are they realistic. Yes,
>the Baltics states WERE part of the old empire, and of the successive
>Soviet empire that followed. By a fait accompli that we could argue
>for months should or should not have occurred, the Soviet Union died
>as an entity, and its death was recognized as so by the last leader
>of the USSR, and his "successor," the first ruler of "modern Russia,"
>Gorbachev and Yeltsin.
>
>One of the products of that dissolution was the declaring of
>sovereignty of most, if not all, of the former "republics" that had
>formerly constituted the USSR, including the three Baltic states. My
>small "upstairs dictiionary" defines sovereignty thusly: "Complete
>independence and self-government." The presence of large numbers of
>Russian troops violates and abrogates "complete independence," and
>you actually wonder as to why Balts might "hate" Russians?
>
>I do not think that the Baltic states have clean hands on the matter
>of their Russian, Ukrainian and Polish minorities, but I think the
>Russian hands are filthy in the equivocating over removal of forces
>from Baltic soil. There is need for Russian troops inside Russia, and
>the Russian government ought to find the monies to get those men home
>- both to meet internal security needs, such as they are, and to
>alleviate a growing problem that will only result in violence, I
>fear, if they stay.
>
>Otherwise, their continued presence says to this observer, many other
>international observers, and to the Balts, that Russia IS pursuing an
>imperialist course, has no intention of letting the Baltic states go
>free, and eventually may have to fight to keep them, hence the
>ongoing presence of the soldiers. THis is many times more dangerous
>than the admittedly vile treatment of the Russians in the Baltic
>states by the respective governments of those states- who I believe
>are causing still another problem that could be alleviated fairly
>easily, but probably won't be. The past impinges on the present,
>however sad that may be, and those who forget the past usually have
>that past come back to haunt them. VMS