From: mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Avoid the Amiga 4000
Date: 11 Oct 92 16:41:18 GMT
Reply-To: mks@cbmvax.commodore.com (Michael Sinz)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
>In article <OD.6badnetOA92-901-302p0_5134449a@piraya.bad.se> Roger_Nordin@atb.bbs.bad.se (Roger Nordin) writes:
>> > Me and my freinds have a phrase that we use for people like you: "You are
>> > on BIG DRUGS!".  You're completely clueless.  The A4000 doesnt NEED a
>> > display enhancer.  The Flicker-Fixer was a HACK!  It was a way of patching
>> > the system to get around a shortcoming in the original chips, a shortcoming
>> > that has been FIXED in the AGA chipset.
>> 
>> Not quite. While the AGA chipset does offer flicker-free video via the Double-
>> NTSC/PAL resolutions, it *requires* applications written specifically with 
>> support for these modes via the graphics screenmode-database. What about all 
>> the existing applications (both commercial and freely distributable software) 
>> that is hardcoded to use Hires with (often optional) Interlace? Those will be 
>> running interlaced. Flickering.
>
>I think you're substantially off base here.  The system software works at it
>harder than you describe, but I'll leave it to one of the software guys to
>describe the details.

As George has said above and we have said before, 99% of the software will
be promoted to non-flickering modes if you select that option in preferences.
Why not 100%?  Well, it is this simple:

The Amiga is used in video production fields and one of the strongest features
of the machine is that it does NTSC/PAL video very well and right out of the
box.  (No add-ons)  Now, as a video application, it is important to be able to
output video scan rate displays when you want.  As such, if you ask for a video
scan rate, you get that.

Now, how does this impact current software?

Well, software that is pure 1.3 code (no 2.0 features are used) will always
be promoted as in pre-2.0 days there was no way to define the video monitor
(scan rate) that you wanted to open your screen in.

If the software does do 2.0-like things and uses the "default" monitor settings
it will also be promoted as that is a safe promotion.

If the software uses the 2.0 display database to let you select the mode you
get to choose the display mode you want and thus it will do as you choose
(which could include a true video-interlaced display - flicker and all)

If the software uses 2.0 functions and *asks* specifically for a VIDEO
compatible display, it will get what it asks for.  (Or if it asks for
any other specific display/scan rate/etc.)  Now, as it turns out there is
one rather popular program that does this:  DPaint IV.  It does this
so you can use PAL or NTSC as an option in DPaint.  They know about the
problem and they also know about the display database so I would guess that
a version of DPaint will be available shortly that uses the display database
and gives the user the option.

>> Yes, but that will take up one Zorro III slot in the A4000, as the video slot 
>> is located in-line with one Zorro III slot. Only three left. And then, you 
>> probably need that SCSI host adaptor card too. Only two left. What if you have 
>> three cards already in your A3000, will be pretty hard to upgrade then.
>> 
>> > the A4000 that is inferior compared to the A3000.  Show me ONE MODE that
>> > the A4000 cannot do that the A3000 can?
>> 
>> The A4000 cannot host a genlock AND a flicker-fixer at the same time, to allow 
>> you to work with video and still have a flickerfixed monitor picture to work 
>> with, because although the video slot has improved in the A4000, it is only 
>> one slot. It cannot host two video slot cards at the same time. Perhaps you 
>> can find a genlock with builtin flickerfixer...

Yes, this is an issue, but it is mainly an issue of incompatible needs.
That is, if you are using a genlock, are you not also doing video?  If you
are doing video, are you not using video display modes?  And, since video
is needed, are you not interested in getting interlaced video (which is
what televison uses)?

>Yes, some subset of users may feel some pain due to this mutual exclusivity.
>How many?   There are plenty of non-video slot genlocks out there in any case.

Right, George.  How many people will need both?

>> But the real problem, which Marc is refering to, is that the A4000 cannot 
>> produce non-interlace hires-interlace resolutions, that the A3000 can, with 
>> the help of the flicker-fixer. This is a quite important features, considering 
>> the wast array of applications that use this display mode currently!
>...
>> 
>> Sorry, but I disagree. Sure, it would be nice if applications would support 
>> the displaydatabase and be able to use any screen resolution. But most 
>> applications does not support this. For instance, I love CygnusEd Pro, but on 
>> an A4000 it will operate in interlaced mode -- and there is no flickerfixer 
>> that will convert it to a non-lace display. It would be useless, I'm afraid.
>
>Do you know this, or are you must making an inference based on what
>you've "heard"?

Go play with an A4000 and use programs with it.  Bring up DPaint III (not IV)
or ProPage or FinalCopy or most any other program.  Make sure you have turned
on the promotion mode and, if you want scan-doubling, also the VGA-ONLY icon.
You may find out that the display that comes out of the A4000 is actually
cleaner than that of the A3000.  You may also find out that you can use more
colours and have more colours to pick from or use the same number of colours
and run much faster.

>> Although I don't agree with Marc in everything he says, I think he was quite 
>> right this time. For people like me, that wants higher non-lace resolutions 
>> rather than lots of colours, the A3000 seems to be a better deal. Especially 
>> as the A3000 prices are dropping steady right now!
>
>If you don't want more colors and are either happy with an '030 or already
>have an '040 card, then the A3000 might be the best deal.  Marc's error is
>in asserting that some particular user profile, his or yours applies to
>the 90'th percentile of the target market.

Yes, please remember what all of you (net-people) have asked for.  Also
remember what the Amiga market needs and asks for.  The biggest need was
for more colour in *video* modes.  More resolution with more colour too.
Non-video modes (non-interlaced 640x480) with more colour.  Well, we have
given you this.  You get more colour, more colours, and more resolution
in the A4000 and AGA chipset.  You can now do photo-realistic displays
with the 24-bit colour resolution of the chips and the HAM-8 mode which
can mathematically give you all 16,777,216 colours if you had the pixels.
(Realisticly, you don't have that many pixels and good pictures display
just fine in the simpler to render 262,144 colour mapping type which is
what marketing calls 256,000 colours since we told them 256K colours.)

Anyway, the major need for the market of the Amiga was addressed.  In addition
the 68040 gives you more speed too.  (Which is always nice)

>This especially comes across in the flaming about the IDE drive.  Nobody
>seems to want to really talk about how well it works or doesn't, just that
>SCSI is what they think it should have and *everyone* should pay for.
>Just about everyone needs a hard disk to make effective use of a machine
>like this.  Not many really care about the interface, only is it big enough
>and can you get/attach a larger or second drive.  Nowhere near as many
>folks as should have have SCSI attached backup devices.  All the A4000 does
>is say that folks with special needs have to pay some increment over the
>base model to address those needs.

Notice that the PC market has 97% of the machines shipping with IDE as
the *only* hard drive interface.  Notice also that this has not prevented
much in the way of sales or usability.  Notice also that IDE costs *much*
less to have on the motherboard than DMA SCSI does.

Now, for me, I need SCSI.  So do others.  However, it is not a reason to
call the machine useless.  In fact, if it were, most of the computers in
the world (IBM-PCs, 97.4% of them) would be useless too.  (I do want SCSI
and so does the marketing department and so does Lou who had stated
that the SCSI board will be made and that highend machines will be
introduced with it on the motherboard in the future)

/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|      /// Michael Sinz  -  Senior Amiga Systems Engineer              |
|     ///                   Operating System Development Group         |
|    ///   BIX:  msinz      UUNET:  mks@cbmvax.commodore.com           |
|\\\///                                                                |
| \XX/     "I think not." said Ren'e Descartes, then he vanished.      |
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/