HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 19:46:36 GMT

Robert Greenstein said in <1992Sep1.195232.5646@island.COM>
>
>Perhaps respect would come when Polish society begins to own up to
>their own (past) actions regarding the Jews. Instead, what I continually 
>see is "yes, but....". 
>-- 
Aleksander Mazur answered in <1992Sep1.170218.8213@walter.cray.com>:
>Could you explain whose respect would come ? 

Let me answer:
My respect came, when I read the following three articles
in the Tygodnik Powszechny in the first half of 1990:

1) about the pogrom of Kielce shortly after the second world war
2) about a camp (Lambinowice) for Germans to be resettled to Germany,
where they were maltreated
3) about the resettlement of Eastern Poles or Ukrainians to the West
after the Germans had left (akcja Wisla)

All of these articles were very objective,
written by historians after careful research,
with a lot of facts, rather dry.
When I read those articles about these not so glorious incidents
in Polish history,
my respect for the Poles and their truthfulness rose
instead of being diminished!
(I must admit that I knew nothing about those incidents before
and I was not particularly suspicious, revisionist, or anything.)

This is a very, very rare phenomenon:
that a newspaper publishes things that are hard to swallow,
and this at the beginning of independence in Poland.
I thought that newspaper is not going to lie to me and subscribed it.
They also publish about other things in Polish history:
the battle of 1920 ("cud nad Wisla"), general Anders, Katyn,
the May constitution, and so on,
so don't think that they take a particularly unfriendly view
towards Polish history.

Please don't ask me to post the above articles, nor make a summary of them.
They were very long, and my newspaper scraps are at home in Berlin,
where I return in two months.

Also when the Polish bishops wrote their letter
forgiving and asking for forgiveness (to the Germans)
I felt rather ashamed,
because I cannot recall a similar action from the German side.
Maybe there was, and it has escaped my attention.

Has there been a similar letter with respect to the Jews?

So these are the effects of truthfulness.

Mechthild
Mechthild.Stoer@nta.no   or    stoer@sc.zib-berlin.de
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT)
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Cam
Followup-To: soc.culture.polish
Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 19:17:49 GMT

Ian Feldman in his first posting 
(proposing a common Polish-German-Jewish action) 
said he did not want to open new wounds
but in fact opened them by hinting that
maybe the German have something against a common action,
and  maybe also the Poles.

In his second posting he criticized John Reece's view
that the Poles were in some way responsible for the Nazi camps
but in the same text suggested that 
>  Perhaps the Poles collectively were too stoopid to see the larger
>  opportunities that a nation-wide collaboration might have brought
>  with it.  

That text called Mariusz Prokopczyk to the arms,
who besides criticizing Ian's offending sentence
could not refrain from hinting
that maybe the Poles had a reason to be antisemitic...
  >From seeing the hatred to Poles expressed by many Jewish authors
  >writing here, I am slowly getting the picture why there were so many
  >antysemitic reactions in polish society
and (no comment)
  >If I would not believe that there
  >are also Jews with more human face and much better brain then yours
  >I would be inclined to say that those Poles were really naive by risking
  >their lives for ... sorry I will not say, it would offend those thinking
  >Jews.

Is there a need to spit all this poison?
I still believe that Ian honestly wanted to defend
the Polish people against unjust insults 
(like "Polish camps" and John Reece's offenses)
but later on insulted them himself,
and that Mariusz got awfully carried away by his feelings,
although he started out his first letter agreeing with Ian.

To return to the issue at the beginning of this Polish-Jewish discussion,
I want to mention that I wholeheartedly support
the action against the wording: "Polish camps".
They should be called what they were: "Nazi camps" or "Nazi-German camps".
(I'm German by the way.)

Mechthild Stoer
Mechthild.Stoer@nta.no  or stoer@sc.zib-berlin.de
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 15:13:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.075937.29466@walter.cray.com>, aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>
>In article <Btv0Ix.82r@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor) writes:
>
>>I am not sure I understand what these examples you give are supposed to 
>>imply? That it is all right for Poles to hate Jews and that the Poles
>>committing crimes against Jews were justified because Fijians did a similiar
>>thing (or blacks in LA attacked Koreans)? If you mean to show that Poles are
>>no worse (and no better) than Irish Protestants shooting Catholics and vice
>>versa, then you may have a point. Except that being born and raised in Poland
>>I am concerned about Polish affairs and that is why I subscribe to soc.culture.
>>polish and not other groups and feel I have something to say here, since I 
>>know background better than in other cases you mention. 
>
>>-- 
>>Andrzej Pindor
>>University of Toronto
>>Computing Services
>>pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
>
>Jest bardzo trudno dyskutowac z tego typu rozumowaniem, ktore nie
>pierwszy raz nam p. Pindor przedstawil we wszystkich mozliwych odmianach
>- antysemityzm jest , jest antysemityzm, antysemityzm tu, antysemityzm
>tam itd, itp. Ale jednak znalazlem cos, co mozna byloby p. Pindorowi
>zadedykowac. Jest to wypowiedz z Poland-Lu, gdzie rowniez tego typu
>tematyka ostatnio byla roztrzasana. Oto ona.
>
>
>>>
>>> pozbawionym bedac ojczyzny . Wyglada to tak jakby to bylo celowe dzialanie
>>> niedopuszczajace do asymilacji Zydow w innych narodowosciach .
>>> I jesli by przyjac takie zalozenie to po czesci fale "antysemityzmu"
>>> mogly by byc wywolywane przez samych zydow . Brzmi to aburdalnie na pierwszy
>>> rzut oka ale ...
>>>
>
>>Otoz jestem przekonany, ze ta hipoteza jest najblizsza rzeczywistosci.
>>Stad moga sie  brac takie  to fenomeny  jak: "straszliwy antysemityzm"
>>Murzynow nowojorskich (chyba w ubieglym roku), czy tam u was w Japonii
>>"niezwykly zalew literatury  antysemickiej", ze nie  wspomne o krajach
>>europejskich, gdzie wiecznie strasza "neonazisci i antysemici"...

[...]
>
>Wypowiedz przytoczyl i p. Pindorowi zadedykowal
>
>Aleksander Mazur

  Aleksander Mazur jak zwykle mnie nie zawiodl.  Nie tylko zapoznal
sie z zacytowanymi tekstami o "autospisku" zydowskim, ale jeszcze
rozpowszechnia je znajdujac widac w kompromitujacym bredzeniu ich
autorow perwersyjna przyjemnosc.

                                        Pawel Penczek
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:49:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Sep1.195232.5646@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:

>
>Yes, many Poles did risk their lives to save Jews. But anti-semitism was
>and still is endemic to Polish society. This goes quite a bit beyond 
              ^^^^^^^
>mere intolerance or prejudice. 

You should check your Webster's , before you use a word. 


--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania | If you can't learn  
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter | to do it well,
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                | learn to enjoy doing it badly.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: s1137020@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Mariusz Prokopczyk)
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Cam
Organization: Monash University College Gippsland, Churchill, 3842, Australia
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:41:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.204148.14300@sarah.albany.edu>
pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.191749.25220@nntp.nta.no>,
>stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT) writes:
>>
>>........
>
>  I do not know whether you can read Polish but I can assure you that
>Mariusz's irresponsible contributions are criticised (in Polish)
>in this group.  I regret very much that this happend at all.
>
>                         Pawel Penczek.

Pawelku, obudz sie - znowu przysnales czytajac s.c.p.

Mariusz

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Polski Kompozytor Grecki ?
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:34:10 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.021007.1970@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, morro@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
>Witam Szanowna Publike
>
>	Moj szef niedawno uslyszal w radiu (105.1 MHz w Los Angeles) piesn
>Ave Maria i upiera sie ze napisal ja Polski kompozytor o nazwisku "Grecki" (!).
[...]
>
>Jasiek

  Zapewne chodzi o Henryka Goreckiego.  Mozesz szefowi polecic 3 Symfonie
Goreckiego, ktora nagrana niedawno prze londynska Sinfoniette cieszy
sie znaczna popularnoscia (jest na liscie przebojow Bilboardu).
Poniewaz symfonia ta zawiera partie spiewane nie jest wykluczone,
ze Twoj szef slyszal wyjatek z tej wlasnie Symfonii.
 
                                   Pawel Penczek
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Cam
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:24:50 CDT


In article <1992Sep2.174037.2417@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>If more than a few hundred German Jews moved to Poland after WW I, it's
>news to me.
>
>(Of course, if you're referring to Jews who suddenly lived in Poland
>because borders were redrawn, that's something else.  But it's not
>emigration, either.)
>

Roger, do you mean September 1939 campaign, when Polish troops after
attacking Breslau and Danzig almost took over Berlin occupying vast
German territory ?

A. Mazur

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:07:43 GMT

aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:


>In article <dobo.715016128@swalwell> dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz) writes:

>>
>>I am sure you also wanted to know this (from same table):
>>
>>Owners of shops selling alcohol:
>>		(this information is dedicated to Mr. Glemp)

>Could you tell us, why you dedicate that info to Mr. Glemp ?
>Do I hear any prejudice here ? Even if not, I think it is worth
>to clarify also.

This was a reference to his statement made last year (in conjunction with
the Auschwitz convent misunderstanding) about the role of Jews in turning
Poles into alcoholics (my recolection of it is vague, so it may be
inaccurate in details).

It was not his invention, by the way; many, even serious historians, make
similar statements. Whether they are true, I do not know, not having been
around in the 18th and 19th centuries when it all started.

W. Dobosiewicz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 01:48:03 GMT

kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:

>>"How do you know Krzysztof, that Matthew was wrong ?" Aleksander Mazur
>Onze napisal o 6 milionach Polakow a nie obywateli polskich zabitych
>przez Niemcow

Czy mam zrozumiec, ze polscy obywatele pochodzenia zydowskiego nie
byli, tak naprawde, Polakami? Ciekawe...

>- lekko ponad polowa (Znowu przepraszam za niedokladnosc
>powinienem byl napisac more than a half zamiast most) to Polscy Zydzi.
>Mozna sie naturalnie sprzeczac o ten milion (tzn o 3.2 lub 2.2 mln
>Polskich Zydow) ,

Jezeli nie mamy dokladnych liczb zabitych polakow pochodzenia
zydowskiego, to proponuje wziasc srednia granic, czyli 2.7 mln (na
s.c.j ktos podal gorna granice jako 3.0 mln, co by dalo srednia 2.6
mln).  Czy jest to wiecej czy mniej niz polowa zabitych Polakow?

>ale chyba nie o fakt.

O ktory fakt chodzi? O ten twoj z nowomatmy, ze  2.7 > 6 / 2 ?  Jezeli
tak, to lepiej sie nie bede spieral, no bo przeciez chodzi o jedyna
slusznosc konkluzji, o racje, a nie o detale wywodu. Tak?


MB

PS: Najlepiej pisac, ze OKOLO polowa Polakow zamordowanych przez
Niemcow byla pochodzenia zydowskiego.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: True Polish Humor
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 06:04:26 GMT

  mario smarduch, <marios@ecs.comm.mot.com> writes
# Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:39:05 GMT

# I just came back from Poland ( I was there for 3 weeks), there is
# no antisemitism whatsovever in Poland, with the exception of few
# jokes here and there.  As a matter of fact some of the key people
# in the Polish governemnt are of Jewish descent, how's that for
# antisemitism.  You should maybe inquire into the German newsgroup,
# French newsgroup, or better yet I'm sure you can find some of it
# here in the US - I would say those are the best choices for your
# paper on antisemitism with the exception of the Palastanians and
# some other Arab states. 

Mario: You have put the rest of us "humourists" into full retreat.
Now I finally know what a true Polish joke is!  Are you, by any
chance, a standup comic, or a professional politician?
-- 
==========================================================================
Ted Grusec    Communications Research Centre    (Govt. of Canada, DOC)
 3701 Carling Ave., Ottawa, Ont.K2H 8S2, CANADA  Internet: ted@dgbt.doc.ca
  Compuserve: 73607,1576  (613) 998 2762   Fax (613) 993 8657
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: etad@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Nazi Camps
Date: 27 Aug 92 01:00:51 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia

In article <1992Aug24.235836.847@dgbt.doc.ca>, ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
writes:
> 
> Forgiving implies a continued guilt. One way to read world war II is
> that is showed what highly educated humans are capable of doing to
> others.  To insist on continued guilt is the further propagation of
> the very racism that underlay naziism.  One group of racists (the
> Germans and their allies) did their evil deed on other groups of
> racists.  Suppose tomorrow you discover that you were mislead by an
> error in the hospital so that your origins were not, whatever they
> are. Does that change anything?  Can we be proud of a given cultural
> heritage without claiming that it is superior to other heritages, or
> that there are burdens of history to be undone by "forgiveness"?  Who
> is to be forgiven? Is any "group" not guilty of something over some
> other group?
> racists. i
> -- 
> Ted Grusec

P s e u d o i n t e l e k t u a l n a    s r a c z k a !!!

So, according to your posting, moral judgement can be applied only to the
process of evil happening and to it's results, but never to the actions of
specific people or groups? And all this because the victims have their own
sins, too? Wouldn't it mean that it doesn't matter who and under what
circumstances did the evil? Wouldn't it, one step further along this line of
reasoning, mean that it is OK to do evil, because everybody else does it, too?

I think, it is  i m p o r t a n t  to judge specific actions of specific people 
or groups (eg. nations), because this is the only way to link the evil that
took place with a specific historical/cultural/social/economic reality. This,
in turn, is the only way to learn the symptoms and know how to recognise the
evil coming before it takes over. 

Also, setting the record straight (with precise knowkedge who, when and        
under what circumstances) leaves less room for all these second/third hand
experts who wouldn't pay any time to investigate the sources of their opinions,
but are always ready to act upon them. Once a joung Jew attempted to bash me
morally only because in his opinion I was a repesentative of the nation (Poles)
that exterminated Jews and built the death camps. Nothing amusing, believe me.

Z powazaniem
-- Arek Dadej
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2243 alt.censorship:7299 rec.humor:27519
From: ts2a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Omar Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,alt.censorship,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Polack joke
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:16:01 GMT
	<Btv90D.57H@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

In article <1992Aug28.143248.1673@unislc.uucp> miket@unislc.UUCP
(Michael Thompson,B2C04,4560) writes:
>
>Marek,  sorry, I made a false assumption that our international friends knew
>what BBs are.  A BB gun is an air powered rifle that shoots very small metal
>balls called BBs.  They are about one-eighth of an inch in diameter.  Sorry,
>I don't know what that equates to in metric measurements.
>
>Mike

Its a .177 caliber round ball.  I used to sell them.

There are also cylindrical pellets in the same size, but only a few BB
guns can handle them.

					Tom the non hacker
					Kemp in 96!
					"If patriotism is the last refuge
					of scoundrels,  Then environmentalism
					is the current refuge of totalitarians."
					Bob Jackson
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2179 alt.censorship:7234 rec.humor:27264
From: harrison@lclark.edu (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,alt.censorship,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Polack joke
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:28:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Aug28.192824.24094
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1992Aug28.160731.18103@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
   marios@ecs.comm.mot.com (mario smarduch) writes:
>
>The problem with these polack jokes is stereotyping, I dont want to 
>be associated with some negative perceptions that people might have
>about Polish people because of idiots like Brett or this Andrew Ford
>guy.

Put your mind at rest Mario.  I have no bad opinions of you, or any other
Polish people, after hearing these jokes.  I hardly think you or anyone else
would do any of the dumb things that these jokes suggest.  (ex. running around
for hours in a round room, looking for a place to pee.)

>      How would you like me talking negativly behind your back ruining your
>personality and spreading false perceptions where people have a completely
>negative opinion of you.

I you told jokes about me, I would probably be upset.  However if you told
jokes about Americans (or English people / Scottish people / Welsh people), I
would laugh if they were funny, and say "What a stupid joke" if they
weren't.

>                           I understand ethnic jokes because I lived in
>Europe, but there these jokes were said to laugh along with not to laugh
>at someone or make fun of someone.

I can see your point of view on ethnic jokes, so no flames are in order
here.  They _would_ be just as funny with ***** inserted instead.  But as
someone else pointed out, the would is full of them, and they aren't going
to go away with some good wishful hopes.  You can:
 
  1) Learn to ignore the ethnic references and laugh at the joke
  2) Ignore them altogether
  3) Throw a big fit every time you hear one.

The choice is yours.  But remember, no matter how upset you get, polack
jokes are going to be around for a long time.

I will say one thing in your favor, these jokes had no business being
cross-posted to the Polish group.  (Or any ethnic group)  Rec.humor is the
place for jokes, and anyone cross-posting is just trying to stir up trouble.


-- 
=============================================================================
Mark Harrison           |  "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
harrison@sun.lclark.edu |   Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
              -- Me     |                                    -- Rush
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Polish-Jewish-(almost)Chinese yok
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:23:20 CDT


In article <1992Sep2.163751.2752@osf.org> oaf@serverx.osf.org (Oded Feingold) writes:

>Stan nudges Marek and says "Lookit them Jews showing off - we're not
>yet off the plane and already they're talking Chinese."
>
>Rike I said, no flied lice.
>

Such a bizarre talk could happen half a century ago, but not necessary -
writers sometimes have some ideas on their own. But if you kept track
of our discussion that takes place now in 1992 you probably noticed
unusual , or I should say quite usual guests on s.c.p. Their common
idea was to express themselves freely how they disrespect, or I should
say hate Poles. And if you could see their background probably you 
would notice that those people never lived in Poland (showing that
during their expressions) or left Poland many, many years ago.
Couldn't you notice, that those people through all those years
were so persistent nurturing their feelings toward Poles ?
And they come here only to show their feelings toward completely unknown
people or they know only that they are Poles. So they are doing
that just because here are Poles. Don't you think that this
must make them feel right ? What a wonderful feeling it must be
to nurture something over years and suddenly express themselves freely.
Don't you think so ?

Aleksander Mazur
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: True Polish Humor
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 21:11:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.172102.4783@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> marios@ecs.comm.mot.com (mario smarduch) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.060426.3077@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>
>># I just came back from Poland ( I was there for 3 weeks), there is
>># no antisemitism whatsovever in Poland, with the exception of few
>># jokes here and there.  As a matter of fact some of the key people


>>Mario: You have put the rest of us "humourists" into full retreat.
>>Now I finally know what a true Polish joke is!  Are you, by any
>>chance, a standup comic, or a professional politician?
>>-- 
>
>I say what I saw, and I repeat what I heard - honost my right hand
>over my heart. As to what I am well, a male, 6ft tall, 175lbs, blue
>eyes, short brown hair, mustache, in good shape, fairly attractive -
>at least that's what my mother says.
>
Mario: Thanks for taking my comments as nothing but humour, as I
intended, rather than being insulted or defensive as, unfortunately,
some other people on the net become under similar conditions. Your
description of yourself clearly shows that you a human being and not
the defender of some stereotyped point of view.  And I do believe you
in your report about Poland, i.e. that you reported what you saw.
Other people, as you are aware, report different things, and I believe
them too, not more, nor less than you.>
>


-- 
==========================================================================
Ted Grusec    Communications Research Centre    (Govt. of Canada, DOC)
 3701 Carling Ave., Ottawa, Ont.K2H 8S2, CANADA  Internet: ted@dgbt.doc.ca
  Compuserve: 73607,1576  (613) 998 2762   Fax (613) 993 8657
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish