From: neff@vcd.hp.com (Dave Neff)
Subject: Re: Christian nudes
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:30:30 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

>>   The final word:
>>       IMO: It would be better if nudists didn't reveal themselves
>>       quite so fully to those who may sin because of it.
>>
>Goody, good.  Bibical mandated codependency.  Almost as bad as government
>mandated codependency.
>
>No smiley.
>
>You watch out for your soul, and I'll watch out for mine.
>
>Lola

You have hit on the head one of my hot buttons about fundamentalist type
Christianity -- it encourages codependency and institutionally encourages
certain dysfunctional relationship patterns.  There are a number of basic
dysfunctional patterns that fundamentalist Christians encourage.  The sum
total of these dysfunctionalities encourage what is known as codependency.
My wife is recoverying from codependency and we have left the church for
a while until she is farther along in her recovery.  When we return to
church we will definately avoid any Bible thumping fundamentalist
type church at all.  Many Christians fall into various dysfunctionalities
which the church leadership encourages.  I could go on and on but to
summarize, some key ones are:

1.  I am responsible for other people's behaviors and feelings.  This is
often extended to church leaders and pastors have "failed" when people
in their church are angry, upset, frustrated, or have fallen into a major
sin (adultery, teen pregnancy, etc.).  This is also a part of the whole
blame/shame kind of dysfunctionality.  The reasonable response to other
people who have strong emotions or do wrong behavior is that people are
responsible for their own feelings and actions.  I am responsible only
for my own feelings and actions, not others.

2.  I must try to change other people.  This involves attempts to convert
other people, to socialize converts to accept the rigid dogma and behaviors
of the groupt, and even attempts to legislate "Christian values" on behaviors
thay the state has not compelling interest in discouraging (i.e. victimless
or lifestyle issues).  In reality, I cannot change someone else.  People
can change themselves.  God can help change people.  But I cannot.  I
can encourage people to think about their actions, I can demonstrate a
life of compassion, but I cannot change them.

3.  It is not acceptable to be different (or at least "too different").
Differences in behavior and thought are discouraged.  Conformity to the
norm is encouraged.  In reality people can totally disagree but still
love and accept each other and have a positive relationship.  My wife
and I disagree in the area of C.O. recreation, but it is no longer an
issue at all in our marriage.  She trusts me, knows I am faithful to
her, and accepts the fact that I enjoy the an experience that she cannot
even imagine participating in.

4.  Unreasonable perfectionism is encouraged.  This is legalism in all
is subtle and not so subtle forms.  People put on masks, hide their
flaws, pretend to be better than they are, and yet inside so many people
feel guilty and inadequate.  In reality Christianity is a freeing experience
in love, faith, and grace.  I am not perfect.  God doesn't expect me to
be perfect.  I do not exploit, manipulate, and harm other people (i.e.
"sin") regularly and intentionally, but still I am muddling through a
muddled imperfect world.  God's grace is a freedom to muddle and know
I am still loved.

5.  An emphasis on "humility" and serving leads to giving up of self.
Of the five dysfunctionalities I have listed this is the main one that
it would seem that Jesus and other Bible passages truly encourage.  I
don't think the Bible really encourages any of these dysfunctionalities,
but the whole humility, denying self, serving others is probably the
area that requires the most time to reconcile Bible teaching with
sound mental health.  I don't want to go into this in great detail here,
however I don't see a real conflict.  The issue here is compassion,
helping others, acting in love, not being egotistical and selfish.  But
Jesus never expected us to ignore our own needs, feelings, and be
totally absorbed in other's needs.  It is human nature to be self absorbed.
"Love your neighbor as you love yourself" assumes self love, it just
encourages equal love, value, respect for others.  Humility and servanthood
must be seen in this equality of self and others not a constant giving up
of self for others.

I could go on and on in this area.  I consider myself a serious, thoughtful,
Christian who has what I call an experience of God at work in my life.
When I swim and sun I prefer the absense of clothing.  It is more logical,
more enjoyable, and can even be a psychologically and spiritually freeing
experience.

I have no desire to fundie bash.  I have many close friends and relatives
who are fundamentalists.  I love them and try to stretch their thinking
whenever I get the chance.  I was raised in a fundamentalist environment
and attended churches which were somewhat fundamentalist oriented for
the last 10 years.  I have finally had enough and am now exploring life
and my religious experience outside of the sphere of this influence.  I
finally could stand it no longer.  However I like the fellowship of people
who are serious about spiritual issues and improving as human beings and
am trying to find a non-funamentalist church where I can experience this.

Dave Neff
neff@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com