HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:50:21 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <Bs0qH9.Gzt@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> ward@sun1.vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward) writes:
>In article <55135@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>>In each generation, there
>>must be fresh discussion, discarding that which does not fit with our 
>>knowledge.  

>This may or may not be a good principle; it has rarely, if ever, been
>tried.  What invariably happens is that in each generation things are
>discarded without discussion because they are "old ideas" and do not
>fit "modern realities".

I agree.  The Reform reaction after the rebuff for such a program was
of such a type.  But the Reform did not stay that way, and if the 
rabbinate at the time of the breaking down of the stetl walls had
been willing to enter into the discussion, the separation might 
never have occurred.

But as long as the Orthodox take the position that the Acharim cannot
directly dispute the Rishonim, and the Rishonim cannot directly dispute
the Gemara, and the Gemara cannot directly dispute the Mishnah, and the
Oral Law is directly from God Himself, I do not see how there can be
any form of discussion.  
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Helping anti-Semites (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:54:01 GMT

In <ZogHoB1w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu writes:

>How do you feel the jewish community in South Florida should react to a 
>Klan march coming up in August. The Klan promises to be selective in this 
>march and only target Jews; the Federation and the ADL do not believe in 
>counter demonstrations and the Klan is cute, they will march on Saturday 
>afternoon.

I don't know.  There's not much that can be done apart from a counter-
demonstration, and that's out.  Instead, the best we can do is work on
long-term programs to reach out to people and ensure that the Klan's
seeds of hatred do not find fertile soil among the general population.

However, if any physical action is taken against Jews or Jewish property,
I would justify the use of all force necessary to protect those lives
and property.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:49:22 GMT

choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:
>Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
>born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?

Perhaps not, but he/she wouldn't be a cannibal then.

-Don Gertler
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:41:10 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <84815@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <2349@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet (Warren Burstein) writes:
>>				   one would be allowed to (unless they
>>had explicitly forbidden such beliefs or practices - aside from the
>>old-style R temples that insisted on bare heads (or so I've heard - I
>>see lots of kipot on the heads of people going in and out of a nearby
>>R shul in Jerusalem)
>
>In America, you can still find such R temples.

Yes; they generally call themselves "classical Reform", meaning that
when the rest of the movement figured out that it was throwing the
baby out with the bathwater and gave up such idiocies, they stuck to
their guns. The rest of the Reform movement simply calls them nuts.

>>		      I'm not aware of anything we O do (aside from
>>claiming that they are wrong) that they think is wrong.
>
>That `claiming' covers a wide range of territory.  Rejecting their food
>they can usually deal with.  But they generally do not like, nor accept
>quietly, the rejection of their conversions, the retroactive annulment
>of their marriages, and so on.

I can think of several things the Orthodox do that Reform thinks is
wrong: not holding women to the same ritual obligations and privileges
as men is the most obvious one. Eating meat from animals that, while
they may have been slaughtered according to the requirements of kashruth,
were not treated in a humane fashion when they were alive, is another
example.

>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Kosher insects (was: Re: 5% bugs in ketchup!)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:03:56 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.021108.17434@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg ) writes:
>I heard once (I'm sure that someone will be happy to let me know if I
>am wrong) that there once existed a particular kind of grasshopper or
>cricket which was kosher.  I heard (again, I question my memory on
>this subject) that no one is quite sure of how to differentiate this
>particular type from other similar insects.  That specialty (of
>selecting the kosher insect) died with an old sect of Ethiopian Jews.

This topic was discussed last year, and I think the conclusion was:

  - There are Yemninite Jews who believe they do know the right
    types of grasshopper, and in fact use it.

  - Someone --  was it you, Warren? - suggested going into business
    selling chocolate covered grasshoppers.  That would be neat for
    someone like me who thinks anything covered with chocolate to
    be irresistible.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Multiple Hechshers [was: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 29 Jul 92 07:49:57 GMT

Summary:  Multiple Hechshers mean Much Trouble.
Date: 29 Jul 1992 10:41 IDT  
Distribution: world


In article <1992Jul28.191648.25693@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>, 
            jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes...

>                                      The butcher shop down the street
>   from me offers Lubavitch and Satmar schechita on request. There
>   cannot be an absolute division into kasher and non-kasher.

**************************

I think that Jews have enough problems without multiple hechshers.
Multiple hechshers mean multiple troubles for Jews.  We have a 
great number of such fellows around here and it only makes trouble.

They even give hechshers on bottled water, to my mind unbelievable.  
I know that 1/2 the things I ate 10 years ago which were Kosher 
then are no longer kosher according to several of the new hechshers.

And it is not only here; I find the same thing on my travels.  In the
US, in Britain.  Everything has become tref; of course, Coers Beer and
other non- or even anti-Jewish concerns will buy a Hechsher to make an
intrinsically, machine made from beginning to end product with no tref
or grapes in it salable.  

I even witnessed a major Bet Din pronounce ALL Israeli matzot non-kosher.

Traveling on an El Al plane can be wild.  The local hechsher is not
good enough for some of the passengers; at least two London ones, a
Swiss and Belgian one were requested by neighbors of mine.  And finally
there was the fellow who refused all food and took out his home-made
sandwich.  Yiden, gevald!


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem



Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Linguistic Purity (was Re: Hidden agenda?)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:30:17 GMT

In article <2267@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
>
>>Akademia is from Greek.  But so is gemmatria, and even Sanhedrin.
>>I believe all of these were used 2000 years ago in the Jewish state.
>
>Gematria and Sanhedrin were used 2000 years ago, I don't think
>akademia was.  But the Sanhedrin did not have, as its mission, to make
>sure that everyone was speaking Hebrew rather than other languages
>(just as well, since they were speaking Aramaic, for the most part).
	                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps akademia comes from this past week's haftarah, which has the
phrase akadem hashem.  This may have been contracted to akadem-ka (which
the less strict in observance pronounce as akademya).  The full possuk is:

Michah 6:6
	bamah AKADEM H'
	'ikhaf leilokei marom,
	ha'akadmenu b`olot ba`agalim benei shanah.

My translation:
	(With what shall I approach Ha-Shem
	and bow to G-d on high?
	Shall I approach Him with `olot [burnt offerings]
	with year-old calves?)


-Don Gertler  :-)
From: miller2@flora.mmwb.ucsf.edu (Susan Miller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Moss Hagada
Summary: Would like to find out where there is a copy of the Moss Hagada for vie
Keywords: Moss Hagada
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:00:47 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

Does anyone know where there is a copy of the Moss Hagada which a very avid 
scholar of Judaism can view? My husband has a great interest in both Judaica
and in graphics and has been trying to find a copy of the Moss Hagada to look
at for several months now, to no avail. We will be in the San Francisco bay
area for the next month and then will be in the New York area.

Thanks.


Susan Miller
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:21:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.190934.1661@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <1992Jul17.232649.616663@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>>
>	...
>
>Although atheists and Jews for Jesus followers may call themselves
>Jews (and they might be, if they are from Jewish mothers...), they in
>no way practice Judaism.  A Jew is what he is born (with the exception
>of converts).  But he doesn't practice Judaism unless he follows
>Jewish Law (any organization's definition of Jewish Law).
>

I almost agreed with this except for the last 6 words. The reason I
disagree with this last sentence is because of my following paragraph,
which you did quote in your post, and I have included here. According
to your definition, Jews for J* are indeed practicing Judaism by
their definition. Have you never seen pictures of a Jews for J*
wearing a "talit" or "observing" Shabbot services in their Church?
Erego I claim your definition and my definition is irrelevant. The
only definition that counts is G-d's.

>
>>I am sorry but I could not disagree with you more.  Judaism has nothing
>>to do with what you, or me, or any other person in the world believes in.
>>Judaism existed long before any of us were born, and will continue to
>>exist long after we are all gone.  If man had originated Judaism, then
>>man could redefine it at will. As such, what wasn't yesterday could be
>>today under the new definition - or vice versa.
>>
>>However, Judaism originated with G-d, and as such HE chose the definitions. 
>>What you or I believe in does not change G-d's definition. If we follow
>>G-d's definition, then we are practicing Judaism. IF not, not.
>
>Exactly.  When you don't follow the Mitzvot, you may remain Jewish,
>and you may still consider yourself practicing Judaism, but that in no
>way makes your disobedience a definition of what Judaism IS.
>
>   |)  David Charlap   

Once again, I almost agreed with you, except for one phrase.
I believe it is far better for me to acknowledge my faults and admit
that I am not practicing Judaism as G-d wants us to, than to whitewash
my faults, water down Judaism, and then "consider myself" practicing
Judaism. At least one way is honest and has hope for the future,
the other doesn't.


Hayim Hendeles
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:05:51 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

In article <dfs.711663729@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>
>If someone is in a desperate situation, and is begging for help, I
>would help that person and not ask his opinions on Jews or
>anti-Semitism first.  Of course, there are degrees - if I happened to
>see Hitler drowning, I'd more likely throw rocks at him than try to
>save him.  But in the normal events of life, I believe we have an
>obligation to help whomever we can, whether they are Jewish or not,
>although we have a right to give Jewish people priority.


ARF says:

Just when I was warming up to you, you had to throw in that clunker.  We
have, of course a "right" to help whom we choose but your context would 
lead one to imply more than just a right and it gets dangerously close to
David Duke giving white folk priority.

Just were is the moral or ethical justification for giving "Jewish 
people priority"?

js
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 15:11:28 GMT


   Overall, the gates article was good.  But he wrote about Jesse
Jackson as if he was nothing more than a force for reconciliation
and friendship.  This characterization flies in the face of Jesse
Jackson's divisive statements of the past.  Jesse Jackson refered
to Jews as "hymies."  This is a racist display that I doubt would
be disregarded if the slur had been directed at blacks.  It might
be suggested that the response to Jackson's "hymie" remarks would
not have been so casual, outside of the Jewish community, if some
group other than Jews had been the target.  The fact the piece by
Gates did not say one word about an episode that was offensive to
every Jew in America is, in and of itself, quite enlightening.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:21:05 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul30.151130.23195@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:

>That wasn't the point.  You said that "murder" was not an
>acceptable solution to *any* problem.  I just gave you two.  The
>death penalty is another issue.

More silly semantic games here:  Murder is never an acceptable
soltion.  Killing can sometimes be.  Murder specifically implies an
illegal act.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 20 Jul 92 14:51:55 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <2266@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <1992Jul16.213709.10954@jade.tufts.edu> nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu
(Nissan Raclaw) writes:

>
>>BUT you can't have your cake and eat it too!
>
>You can't even have your cake.  If democracy is for Jews only, soon it
>will only be for some Jews, and eventually just for one.

1. Conclusion : Warren fights for democracy for every one .
2.  Conclusion : Warren fights for democracy for  KACH  and KOACH.
3.   Conclusion  : Warren fights for the right of those two Rabbi
                    Kahana's parties to  run to the Knesset.

BUT

   Warren SAID NO WORD for the democratic rights of those  2 parties .

So there is a catch here.

Shalom    Gideon Ehrlich    ERETS YISRAEL

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: maverick!hem@col400.att.com
Subject: Jewish Refugees
Reply-To: <maverick!hem@col400.att.com>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:34:21 GMT

The enclosed deserves a wider posting

Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 92 18:15:52 IST
Reply-To:     "JEWISHNT - Jewish Global Information Network Project"
              <JEWISHNT@BGUVM>
              <JEWISHNT@BGUVM>
Comments:     Resent-From: Dov Winer <VINER@BGUVM>
Comments:     Originally-From: "Bob Klein" <KL2@NIHCU>
From:         Dov Winer <VINER%BGUVM.bitnet@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL>
Subject:      Jewish Refugees from Yugoslovia
To:           Multiple recipients of <JEWISHNT@BGUVM>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 980
Status: R



Dov Winer
Ben Gurion University
Internet : viner at bguvm.bgu.ac.il


----------------------------Original message----------------------------
After reading about refugees from Bosnia, my wife and I were
wondering whether there was any need for foster care for Jewish
children.  We have in mind something like what was done for
Iranian Jewish children after the fall of the Shah.  If anyone
on this list is aware of such a need or such a program, please
let me know.  Fell free to crosspost this to any other list you
think appropriate.  I can be reached on both BITNET and the
Internet:

BITNET                     kl2@nihcu
Internet                   kl2@cu.nih.gov

Thanks in advance for any input.
Bob Klein
*****************************************************************************
*****************************************************************************
This is an exception to the editorial policy of this list to restrict itself
to Jewish electronic networking.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<dfs.712504378@ro> <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<dfs.712520924@ro>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:26:26 GMT

>In article <dfs.712520924@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
>Path: cs.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!dfs
>
>Well, Sam, there comes a point where we have to ask ourselves this
>question: At what level does our duty for concern over others begin
>interfering in our own lives to an undue level?  Now, I'm perfectly
>willing to live without patrilineal descent, because I think that in
>that instance, the concerns over divisiveness outweigh whatever
>benefits we think patrilineal descent may bring.
>
>But when a minority of people tell an elected government what to do,
>then I have to say no.  That minority is demonstrating contempt for
>democracy.  Again, let me stress - I have no problems whatsoever with
>the Halachic rules for determining who is Jewish.  But I do have
>problems when the religious authorities force a secular government to
>abide by those rules.  Because, much as some may dislike it, Israel
>does not claim to be a theocracy.  It is supposedly a democracy.  And
>in this instance, the religious establishment is undermining the
>democracy, making the claim to be the "only democracy in the Middle
>East" that much harder to support.

  Who are you calling a "minority demonstrating contempt for
  democracy"?  We do not have mob rule either.  Are the Justices
  in America a "majority"?  No, they are a minority of highly
  trained discerning individuals who have been selected for special
  qualities.  If their actions are not what the "majority" wants it 
  does not mean the Justices are contemptuous of democracy.  Can an 
  elected government overturn the laws of physics even if a majority
  wants to?  So, it seems there are limits to what a majority vote
  can do.  
 
  If there is a government and state in Israel it should be for all
  Jews.  Err, excuse me if this is a shocker, but that should include
  the Orthodox Jews (and the "very Orthodox", "the "careful Orthodox",
  the "practicing Orthodox" the "dedicated Orthodox" and the "loving
  Orthodox").  At this time in history, when so many Jews are ignorant
  of their religion,  when  we have school children who know more about 
  other religions than about Judaism,  and when these things have 
  happened in the name of "majority rule" then one must take a good hard 
  look at whether the majority is ruling "justly".   The majority rule 
  must be within the bounds of Justice,  and to me this means it is
  defined by the Halacha.   

  The Halacha is totally in keeping with the needs and desires
  of the majority and indeed of ALL Jews;  the ways of the Torah
  are pleasant, and if people would just follow the Torah we have 
  been promised a land of Milk and Honey.    



--
/M
From: jbaltz@hebrew.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B.  Altzman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:52:35 GMT
Organization: mailer daemons association

In article <1992Jul23.121437.27409@tudorct.com> shdan@tudorct.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>>|> In article <LERNER.92Jul21174434@division.cs.columbia.edu> lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>>|> -> Well, here we are again.  The term "ultra-orthodox" is horrible and
>>|> -> derogatory, as if it says "excessively".  How about just "Orthodox"?
>>|> -> Is there a better term?

>When people ask me whether I am O, C or R, I respond with religious.  The
>need to pigeonhole people to the O/C/R boundaries coupled with terms like
>ultra, modern, not-so, or turbo, does not convey any useful information.

>"religious" is usually the answer that is really being looked for anyway.  

NO! 

IMHO, "observant" or "traditionally observant" is a much better moniker
than "religious". Why? Because (in their own minds) the Reform are
"religious" (some of them) because they believe in G-d, have (at least)
yirat shamayim [fear of heaven], &c. I know this because in my family (much
of whom are NOT "tradionally observant") we are all very careful to
distinguish between those of us who are "religious" (most of us) to those
of us who are "observant" (basically my part of the family)

"Religious" carries with it connotations of belief, which isn't the
exclusive domain of the Orthodox (er, Traditionally observant). "Observant"
usally indicates either "O" or "Traditional C"

(Of course, I don't mean to make this at all an _ad hominem_ attack, so
please Dan, don't take it as such).

>Dan Shimoff               Am Yisrael          \ 

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman                                              +1 212 854 2057 
jbaltz@columbia.edu                                      jauus@cuvmb (bitnet)
NEVIS::jbaltz (HEPNET)                    ...!rutgers!columbia!jbaltz (bang!)
From: taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: looking for an apt in J'lem
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 02:05:40 GMT

I'm looking for an apartment in Gilo Bet in Jerusalem for mid sept to mid
october for a couple.  If you know of any possbility, please respond to 
taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu or in J'lem call Lenn Schramm at 63 01 38 
during the day.  

Thanks very much.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish