HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna, Prost & Mansell
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:06:44 GMT
Reply-To: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH


In article <1992Aug18.171619.226@den.mmc.com>,
hagood@sabre.den.mmc.com (Dave Hagood) writes:
|>
|>	Also, you don't see the flagrant blocking techniques in IndyCars
|>like you do in F1 (Berger squeezing Mansell, twice, in the Hungarian GP).

Au contraire.  Al Unser, Jr. had some words with Paul Tracy after the
Michegan 500 over exactly this issue.  Mario has a running feud with Eddie
Cheever about alleged questionable driving tactics, as well.

|>You don't see drivers taking each other out on the racetrack (Senna/Prost
|>in Japan 2 years ago).

I saw quite a bit of drivers taking each other out at Detroit.  I grant you,
there wasn't the bad blood surrounding it like there was 2 years ago at Suzuka.
But that was considered bad even by F1 standards and eventually ended up with
FISA forming a committee to investigate questionable driving practices.

--PSW
From: JFS10@psuvm.psu.edu (Jonathan Swaby)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:04:38 GMT
 <1992Aug19.151318.26796@rdg.dec.com>
Organization: Penn State University

In article <1992Aug19.151318.26796@rdg.dec.com>, winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com
(Paul S. Winalski) says:

>In article <1992Aug18.231751.16694@syacus.acus.oz.au>,
>roberts@syacus.acus.oz.au (Robert Salier) writes:
>|>
>|>It wouldn't surprise me if the jungle-juice regs made a difference too.
>|>I think we are close to the end of the Renault dominance - if Honda
>|>remain in F1.

>How, then, do you explain Patrese walking away with the race, until he blew
>it by going off course while passing backmarkers?  Senna couldn't touch
>Patrese.  Granted, Williams did lose about 1 second of their customary
>2-second advantage over the field, but they still dominate.
Perhaps Patrese was driving a more radical version of the newest Renault
engine. They did say that they had a new engine for this race. Maybe
only one car had it and that was Patrese. They did not want to risk
giving Mansell an unproven engine.

Jonathan Swaby

>--PSW
From: jmurphy@pop.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: F1 Hungary Final Grid
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:50:51 GMT


 1. Riccardo Patrese (Italy) Williams          1:15.476
 2. Nigel Mansell (Britain) Williams           1:15.643
 3. Ayrton Senna (Brazil) McLaren              1:16.267
 4. Michael Schumacher (Germany) Benetton      1:16.524
 5. Gerhard Berger (Austria) McLaren           1:17.277
 6. Martin Brundle (Britain) Benetton          1:18.148
 7. Michele Alboreto (Italy) Footwork          1:18.604
 8. Thierry Boutsen (Belgium) Ligier           1:18.618
 9. Jean Alesi (France) Ferrari                1:18.665
 10. Ivan Capelli (Italy) Ferrari              1:18.765
 11. Erik Comas (France) Ligier                1:18.902
 12. Gabriele Tarquini (Italy) Fondmetal       1:19.123
 13. Johnny Herbert (Britain) Lotus            1:19.143
 14. Aguri Suzuki (Japan) Venturi              1:19.200
 15. Bertrand Gachot (France) Venturi          1:19.365
 16. Mika Hakkinen (Finland) Lotus             1:19.587
 17. Paul Belmondo (France) March              1:19.626
 18. Eric Van De Poele (Belgium) Fondmetal     1:19.776
 19. Andrea De Cesaris (Italy) Tyrrell         1:19.867
 20. Ukyo Katayama (Japan) Venturi             1:19.990
 21. Mauricio Gugelmin (Brazil) Jordan         1:20.023
 22. Olivier Grouillard (France) Tyrrell       1:20.063
 23. Karl Wendlinger (Austria) March           1:20.315
 24. Stefano Modena (Italy) Jordan             1:20.707
 25. Damon Hill (Britain) Brabham              1:20.781
 26. Pierluigi Martini (Italy) Dallara         1:20.988
    Did not qualify:
 27. Gianni Morbidelli (Italy) Minardi         1:21.246
 28. J.J.Lehto (Finland) Dallara               1:21.288
 29. Alessandro Zanardi (Italy) Minardi        1:21.756
 30. Roberto Moreno (Brazil) Andrea Moda       1:22.286
---
Joe Murphy
Computer Specialist and Macintosh Trickster

National Institutes of Health, Bethesda MD. USA
Division of Computer Research and Technology
Personal Computing Branch, Macintosh Support Group

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: graeme@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Graeme)
Subject: Mansell a past world champion if he was a worse driver?
Summary: Mansell's rationalization
Keywords: Mansell, world championship
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:40:54 GMT

>Robert Marti: >>Hungarian GP                            Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:17
>I just saw the post-race interviews on Eurosport.  Did anyone else
>notice Mansell's mistake when he talked about his previous failures
>to clinch the title?  He said something like "Well, I've been 2nd
>once to Alain and twice to Ayrton".  (He was in fact 2nd to Alain
>Prost, in 1986, to Ayrton Senna, in 1991, and to Nelson Piquet,
>then his teammate at Williams, in 1987.)

Guess with all the hassles about next year Senna must have been on his mind...

I saw a re-run of a very old game show on local TV late last week,
Nigel was a guest. 
The host, fawning all over him, asked about the World Championship,
Nigel commented he would have been World Champion if he hadn't been such a good
driver.
When prompted, Nigel commented that an official had told him (after Nigel's
Adelaide blowout) that if he had bounced off the wall and ended up in
the middle of the track, the race would have been
stopped, and the results counted from the previous lap, and Nigel
would have been World Champion.
"If I hadn't been such a good driver and kept the car on the track,
if I'd lost control and it had bounced off a wall 
I'd have probably broken both legs,
but I would have been World Champion."
He didn't say if it would have been worth two broken legs...
Graeme.




Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Minor Formulae
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 22:12:05 GMT

In article <9@tr.UUCP> chip@tr.UUCP (chip ragan) writes:
>From article <713729491.19472@minster.york.ac.uk>, by pete@minster.york.ac.uk:

>> Formula Ford 1600	(worldwide, current)
...
>> 	The world's finest training ground for racing drivers.

>In the states, this class is rather moribund.  If you don't own a Swift
>chassis, you really aren't in the game, and Swift no longer builds formula
>fords due to lack of demand.

well, there's the game and then there's the game.  many people are
perfectly happy driving in regionals with Crossles and Royales; no,
they're not going to the Runoffs, but they're having fun racing, which
is what the point is supposed to be.  as long as there are full fields
of drivers having fun, then the classis hardly a dying one; i guess
it's just the case that there isn't much technical innovation going
on there these days.

>One of the reasons for Formula Fords decline is FF2000.  There are currently
>several pro series for them,

in practice, the USAC series is off and running, and the SCCA series
for FF2000 is dying on its feet, a botched job.  one of these days the
SCCA will figure out that it isn't cut out to be IMSA, and give up and
go back to handling club racing, which is what it's good at.  or maybe
it won't, and we'll watch endless iterations of failing attempts at
poorly conceived or poorly executed pro series, forever and ever and ever ...

> and they have similar costs of operations.  Pretty
>much a Swift class, also.

what is the relationship of the costs of startup, though.  i'd imagine
that buying a FF2000 setup must cost a bit more than a competitive
FF1600 setup.

richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: Senna, Prost & Mansell
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:38:07 GMT

In article <93949@bu.edu> nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
>So I guess the drivers competition in 1993 will be within the Williams
>drivers. And now for the historians: Has there been such a case in RECENT
>years (after lets say the 70s)?

i'd say that prost and senna at mclaren in the mid-80s was a wee bit
like that.  in fact, i'd say that there's one particular season that
sounds _exactly_ like that.

>Drivers of the same team fighting for the championship doesn't seem very
>exciting to me. It should be (equipment advantage eliminated), but with all
>the politics in F1... I don't know.

i think that benneton and lotus are both on the verge of making things
really interesting, and you should never count Ron Dennis out (i don't
like the guy much, but he is a proven winner as manager of an F1 team.)
if eddie jordan were to manage to get decent motors, then his team could
be a real threat; they sure looked like one in 1991, and then they had
to replace the fords with boat anchors.  one wonders how many other teams
might suddenly brighten up if they managed to get decent motors.

cheers,
  richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Subject: Re: F1: Frank Williams (was: Driver-owned teams)
Reply-To: ah335@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Banks)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:48:19 GMT


In a previous article, nicos@csa.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) says:

>Grayson Walker wrote:
>
>>When did FW have his road accident? Remember that he is now a quadra-
>>plegic. He must be attended by nurses 24 hours. He cannot control anything
>>below his neck. Such a horrible personal tragedy could change the 
>>personality of ANYONE!
>
>Yes, if someone could give us some history on F.W. (his accident AND before),
>please.


I was reading a book on F1, I forget the name now, but they had a picture
of Frank Williams before his accident and his face looked colder than it
does now.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Re: IndyCar tires
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:28:12 GMT

>> What are the front and rear widths of the tires used in IndyCar racing?
>
The tires are, of course, exclusively Goodyear.  Each tire weighs 18-28
lbs, depending whether it is for the rain or dry, front or rear.  The
minimum rim diameter is 15", with the width of the undriven wheels set
at 10" and the width of the driven wheels set at 14".  Since '89, all
events have been contested using the radial tire.  All used tires are
returned to the mfg. following each race.  The cost per set averages
$1000 and a team may use 28-44 tires per weekend, depending on the
track.

-c'ball-
From: james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Senna, Prost & Mansell
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:21:07 GMT
Organization: Bridge Information Systems

In article <93949@bu.edu> nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
!So I guess the drivers competition in 1993 will be within the Williams
!drivers. And now for the historians: Has there been such a case in RECENT
!years (after lets say the 70s)?
!Drivers of the same team fighting for the championship doesn't seem very
!exciting to me. 

One *could* say Mansell and Patrese, Williams, 1992 (how's that for
recent :-). A less flip answer would be Senna and Prost, McLaren, 1988. 
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
james montebello (james@bridge.com)         'my employer has no opinions'		
"If we don't succeed, then we run the risk of failure." -Dan Quayle 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu (Luis Miguel Silveira)
Subject: Re: Team dominance (was Re: Senna, Prost & Mansell)
Reply-To: lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
Organization: Research Laboratory of Electronics, Massachusetts Institute of
	Technology
	<1992Aug20.133553.17014@cunews.carleton.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:41:14 GMT



   In article <1992Aug20.133553.17014@cunews.carleton.ca>
   marcink@quantum.carleton.ca (Marcin Kolbuszewski) writes:

   I do not remember the details, but in 1977 the season was dominated by
   the Lotus ground effects car, with late Ronnie Peterson ( died after an
   accident on the start of 1977 GP Italy at Monza. I think Riccardo
   Patrese ( 15 years ago ! ) was blamed at that time for aggresive
   driving ). I do not remeber the other driver ( Carlos Alberto Reutemann?

   In 1978 everybody had ground effect with skirts and the domination was over.


   I hope I did not mess up the fact...


Wasn't Ronnie Peterson's accident in 78, the year Mario Andretti (not
Reutemann) won the F1 Championship ?  In any case, both in 77 and 78
the Lotus were dominant, but very much like last year (91), another
team and pilot ended up winning the title.  In 77 it was Niki Lauda in
the Ferrari (his 2nd Championship), despite 4 victories by Andretti
(the most for any driver that year).

-Miguel

--
=============================================================================
Luis Miguel Silveira                            e-mail : lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
=============================================================================
Research Laboratory for Electronics  -  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Room 36-893, 77 Massachusetts Ave,                      Phone: (617)-253-7307
Cambridge MA 02139                                      Fax:   (617)-258-7864
=============================================================================
also affiliated with:
INESC - Instituto de Engenharia de Sistemas e Computadores
Av. Alves Redol, 9-3o, 1000 Lisboa, PORTUGAL           Phone: (351)-1-3100288
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry)
Subject: Lotus scores points in Hungary
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 14:44:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Mika Hakkinen, driving for Lotus, got fourth place in the 1992 Hungarian GP.
Unfortunately, Johnny Herbert got knocked out in the first turn.

Some big deal involving Nigel Mansell also happened.  Something about
clinching the 1992 Driver's Championship.

alan

Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: ocman@bluemoon.rn.com (Jim Ziogas)
Subject: Mid-Ohio
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 00:37:05 EDT

I hope to make it to Mid-Ohio for the Pioneer 200 in a couple of weeks, 
and I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on where I should stand 
or sit at the course.  I've never been to Mid-Ohio before, so I want to 
know if I should worry about getting in to the granstands or if I should 
stand in a certain place.  Thanks!


 This is from
     ocman@bluemoon.rn.com
who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet
From: MJackson.Wbst147@XEROX.COM
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Hungary etc
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:11:13 GMT
Reply-To: MJackson.Wbst147@xerox.com

Received: by yngvi.wbst147 (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08306; Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:11:52
EDT
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY

In article 1467@minster.york.ac.uk, dss@minster.york.ac.uk writes:

> Perhaps FISA will change their mind about dropping this venue as of
> next season.

What's this?  The schedule I've seen promulgated is just like this year's,
except it starts out ZA-BR-Asia (Autopolis)-RSM-E, rather than ZA-MEX-BR-E-RSM.
It's been noted in this forum that the Autopolis track owners are in financial
and legal straits, but I haven't heard anything about the Budapest date of 29
Aug 93 being in doubt.  Do you have later information?

Mark <MJackson.Wbst147@Xerox.COM>
    TV dinner by the pool; I'm so glad I finished school!
				- Frank Zappa


Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: johng@syacus.acus.oz.au (John GriffithsMel)
Subject: Re: Driver-owned teams; are they the best?
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:30:57 GMT

myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:

>In article <z09mngn.esprit@netcom.com> esprit@netcom.com (Alan F. Perry) writes:
>>No, once you get on Team Willy's bad side, you might as well kiss it off.
>>Well, except for Nigel.
>>Actually, I hope that Team Willy gives in on Nigel's demands for $23M, then
>>Nigel says, "No, thanks" anyway.  Nigel can live pretty comfortably with
>>the money he has got.

>What? And flog around midfield next year while Senna leads from start
>to finish every single race in a Renault-Williams? What I really want
>to see is everyone gang up on Frank Williams so that no one will drive
>for him unless Patresse is the codriver on that team.

>Which brings us to one of my old haunts: employee-employer relationships
>and whether small entrepreneural teams are better than big ego and cash
>laden teams.

>If Frank Williams is indeed as much of a prick as Ron Dennis is reputed
>to be, then that may explain why dieties like Alain Prost seriously wants
>to own his own team.

>As Bobby Rahal has shown lately, it's definitely a winning combination.

>I'm not too up on my F1 history, but has there ever been a mildly
>succesful driver-owned team contesting in F1? Ever?
>Lotus? Nahhhh ...

>Michael MY Hui  myhui@bnr.ca  Ottawa Canada

I think Sir Jack Brabbam (sp?) should get a mention here, I can't remember the
dates but he won in his own car, not to mention a complete OZ package of
driver car and engine.

john Griffiths
My claim to fame is that I used to live in Port Erin in the Isle of Man
- were Nige used to live.
From: keeper@deeptht.armory.com (Ron O'Dell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: NASCAR at INDY??
Keywords: NASCAR INDY
Date: 14 Aug 92 04:30:14 GMT
Organization: The Armory

In article <1992Aug10.204443.25955@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jbright@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.k.bright) writes:
>Does anyone out there have a problem with Tony George bringing NASCAR to
>Indy?  With all due respect to the NASCAR drivers/fans, I sure as heck do!
>Does anyone care?  Does anyone care but feel helpless to stop it?

I don't have a problem with it.  IMS is a race track.  It's been around
for a while, but so what?

On the other hand, the Indianapolis 500 is a tradition, and is special.

NASCAR running a race at IMS will in no way harm the tradition that is
the Indianapolis 500, though.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Reply-To: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:13:24 GMT


In article <1992Aug20.030341.20824@bmerh85.bnr.ca>,
myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
|>
|>There's something illogical here. If the FW14 chassis is so good, then
|>it should generate better cornering force than the whole field given the
|>same rear wing setting. So I then extrapolate that the FW14's wing setting
|>should be less than everyone else's and still be equal to them all in
|>the small radius twisties. So I then further extrapolate that even if
|>the Renault engine is equal in power to the Honda,

First off, the Honda engine looks to be more powerful.  The McLarens are
running with a huge amount of wing so that they can stick in the corners, yet
they are still able to keep up with the Benettons, Ferraris, and Lotuses.
Accelerating out of corners has always been a forte for Honda.  At the
Hungaroring, the McLarens were able to shoot out of the final corner onto
the straight faster than the Williams.  To overtake a comparable car on the
straight, you have to be drafting off the car going onto the straight and then
dart past just going into the corner.  The McLaren's acceleration out of the
last corner made it very difficult to be close enough pull off the pass.

|> at the end of the
|>straight Team Willy's pride and joy (what joy? he never smiles) should
|>definitely be ahead of Team McLaren's pride and joy.

When you're a paraplegic in constant pain due to a broken spine, it's hard to
find much to smile about.

--PSW
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: taylor@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Ross Taylor,Peyt312,6652,2655436)
Subject: F1: trivia time again
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:50:44 GMT

All this talk of who will be driving where next year has made me succumb
to posing another trivia question:

Has the F1 drivers championship been decided this early in the
season ever before?

Use relative criteria (NM clinched after 11 of 16 races).

It goes almost without saying that neither Prost or Senna ever clinched
this early (and that takes care of 6 years)!

Second related question:  How many times since 1970 has the drivers championship
beeen decided at the last race of the season?

answers by e-mail to taylor@sun.soe.clarkson.edu

Ross Taylor
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: scolucci@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: Re: Senna in 1993
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:27:49 GMT

In article <93845@bu.edu>, nicos@cs.bu.edu (Nicos Kontopoulos) writes:
> 
> 
> Where did you people hear that Senna said he'd drive for Williams
> for free?
> 
> What I heard was that Senna turned down Ferrari's offer of $25M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or did I misunderstand?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Nicos Kontopoulos                             Voice: (617) 787-1780
>    INTERnet: nicos@cs.bu.edu                    BITnet: ecolpqc@buacca
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
The $0.00 news came from James Hunt during the BBC commentary of the race. He 
claimed to have been told this on the morning of the race by Senna himself 
and that Frank Williams himself had not yet been told.
Obviously then, until he hears from Williams all other offers are on hold.

regards, 
Serge 

P.S. I was very surprised that Murray Walk did not refer to the fact that
     his co-commentator was the last British F1 driver to win the World
     Championship.
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Driver-owned teams; are they the best?
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:59:51 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Originator: netnews@uts.mcc.ac.uk

In article <1992Aug18.031527.13944@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:

>I'm not too up on my F1 history, but has there ever been a mildly
>succesful driver-owned team contesting in F1? Ever?
>Lotus? Nahhhh ...

Possibilities only as my history is duff also:

Early years of Brabham?  Or had Jack retired before his cars were racing?
Surtees ran his own cars? But did they do any good?
Ummmm  any more?

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|           It all depends on the size of your ham sandwich           |
|  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44)061-275-6033  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: glenn@misty.boeing.com (Glenn Cirlincione)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Speeds at Le Mans, Rondeau, Rondel (was: Mazdas @ Bonneville)
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:00:42 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane BCS Support

Yes indeed the WM Peugeot's were always attempting to be the fastest
on Mulsuanne each year.  I remember 1984 being a successful attempt at 
over 250MPH and leading the first lap too!

Glenn Cirlincione
Boeing Computer Services
(206) 957-5282
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport