HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: parry@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Tom J Parry)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 6 Sep 92 17:15:58 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.

Date: 6 Sep 92 13:30:51 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep6.133051.24008@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

Bryan A. Ignatow (b1i3297@zeus.tamu.edu) wrote:
> 
> In article <ABERCROMBIE.92Sep3124717@apphpp10.mdcbbs.com>, abercrombie@mdcbbs.com (Phil Abercrombie) writes:
> >
> >These days mice seem to be constructed such that if you lift them from
> >the desk the ball will stop turning. 
> >
> 
> What Ball?  My good ol' trusty ball-mouse was replaced with the new and improved
> model:  two cylinders.  One cylinder is pitched for the horizontal, the other
> one for the vertical.

The mice on the SG Irises here don't have moving parts at all. They use
little red LEDs and a reflective metal mouse pad with little squares on
it! What's more some of the pads have different dot pitches so the mouse
movement speeds are different.

-- 
Tom J Parry.
Your reality is a figment of my imagination.
From: jruiz@wm.estec.esa.nl (Jose Ruiz -Student-)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: WANTED: function to read an image file into a pixmap
Date: 10 Sep 92 04:00:47 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: ESA/Estec/WMS, Noordwijk, The Netherlands

Date: 9 Sep 92 10:32:41 GMT
Message-Id: <BuB3yI.Bn4@wm.estec.esa.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I would like to load 8-bits color images into a user interface built
using Sun's DEVGuide.

What I need is being able to read an image file (Sun Raster format preferably,
but I can transform them to otherformats ) and put it into an X pixmap 
(an equivalent to XReadBitmapFile for Pixmap files in fact...), in order to 
use then XcopyArea to put the pixmap on the drawable.

Can anybody help ?

BTW, if you have a simpler idea, please let me know ?
From: solomon@pa621a.inland.com (Paul J. Solomon)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Help with X(t)GrabPointer()...
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:30:31 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Inland Steel Company, East Chicago, IN

Date: 8 Sep 92 13:57:32 CDT
Message-Id: <1992Sep8.135732.1@pa621a.inland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif

I need to be able to grab the mouse pointer, click on some element in
my application, and return the widget underneath the cursor.  I am
currently using XGrabPointer() and a loop with XCheckTypedEvent() to
pull out the next ButtonPress. 

I seem to be having problems with the pushbutton itself:  after the
XGrabPointer is called, whenever I then choose a pushbutton widget, either
the button's callback gets called, or the button just stays highlighted
after being clicked on (depending on how I process the events).

Does anyone know of a way to *really* ignore pushbutton widgets during
this grab:  all I'm interested in is which widget I click on...


-paul.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Paul J. Solomon            |  "Consequences, Schmonsequences...    |
| solomon@pa881a.inland.com  |       as long as I'm RICH!!!"         |
| Inland Steel Co.           |             -Daffy Duck               |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: BEN@zis.ziff.com (Ben Alexander)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Looking for an expedient method to select multiple items in a list box
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:04:47 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:30 EST
Message-Id: <01GOL178GMHSNV1DS5@arnor.zis.ziff.com>
X-Envelope-To: xpert@athena.mit.edu
X-Vms-To: IN%"xpert@athena.mit.edu"


I'm trying to isolate the source of a problem, and would appreciate
any assistance.

I'm using DEC's X-Window implementation (DECWindows, VMS 5.4), and I'm
experiencing some difficulty.  I'm trying to select every item in a
reasonably small list box (less than 400 items), and the process is
extremely slow (maybe 5 or 10 minutes).  I've tried using toolkit
level routines, as well as using XtSetValues, but I have yet to 
find a technique that provides a useable response time.  My question:
Is DEC's implementation at fault, or is X simply very slow at selecting
multiple items in a big list box, or am I doing something stupid?

                                  -Ben
                                  ben@zis.ziff.com
From: nilesh@wupost.wustl.edu (Nilesh L. Jain)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Drag-drop in Viewport widget
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:39:00 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Washington University in Saint Louis, MO USA

Date: 14 Sep 1992 15:21:52 -0500
Message-Id: <nilesh.716500458@informatics>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

I am developing an application for use by radiation oncologists using the
Athena widget set.  In the top right hand corner of the display, I have to
present about 10-15 columns of data, each column consisting of 5 command
widgets.  Since it is physically impossible to fit all the data into the
available space, I am using the Viewport widget.  It allows me to see about
4 columns at a time, and I can use the horizontal scrollbar to see the rest.

The physicians using the system want the ability to move a column of data in
order to rearrange the column order.  They want to be able to click on a
column, drag it over to the column they want it to occupy, and drop it there
shifting the intervening columns.  I was planning on using the middle mouse
button for this purpose -  BtnDn to select the column, BtnMotion for the
drag and BtnUp for the drop.  However, when the destination column is not
visible, I need to scroll the data.  But I have not been able to do this as
the Viewport widget controls the scrolling of the data directly.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so, how have you gotten around it?  I
would appreciate pointers from people who have implemented such a feature in
their application.  Please e-mail.  I will summarize the response.  Thanks.


Nilesh L Jain                                Division of Medical Informatics
nilesh@informatics.wustl.edu        Washington University School of Medicine
                                                         St Louis  MO  63110
From: shane@sbgrad7.cs.sunysb.edu (Shane Bouslough)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Scrollbars (was Re: GUIs Considered Harmful)
Date: 14 Sep 92 08:53:46 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook

Date: 13 Sep 92 19:15:52 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep13.191552.9817@sbcs.sunysb.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <oefiyZO00VAt5mSIYY@andrew.cmu.edu>, fj05+@andrew.cmu.edu
   (Faisal Nameer Jawdat) writes:
> not to mention a blatant NeXT plug:
> NeXT scrollbars are the ONLY good implementation of this I have seen -
> click somewhere in the scroll space and the bar moves right there (the

Yuk! If you have 500 lines of text to scroll through, you can spot exactly
where you want to go? That's pretty good. If I have that good an idea where
I want the slider to go, I just drag it. IMHO, it seems that paging is a
more common action. One aspect of OpenWindows I'd like to see elsewhere is
while you're paging, if the slider reaches the pointer, it grabs it so
you can continue paging in the same direction. I hate GUIs where as soon
as the slider reaches the pointer, you end up toggling between page up
and page down. If this is an option in Motif, please let me know, I miss
it.

>|> bar is also sized proportionally to the visible space / scrollable
>|> space ratio),

This is how it works on HP's running Motif, as well as OpenWindows cmdtool.

-Shane
--
Shane Bouslough       | #include <stddisc.h>
shane@sbcs.sunysb.edu | #include <happy.rhodes>
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Free software and the future of support for Diamond products
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:56:15 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA

Date: 10 Sep 1992 17:02:02 GMT
Message-Id: <18nv2aINN9d8@early-bird.think.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386,comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.mach,comp.sys.ibm.pc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware

In article <1992Sep10.130359.24767@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> dwex@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (david.e.wexelblat) writes:
>In article <1992Sep09.203305.18082@digibd.com> rick@digibd.com (Rick Richardson) writes:
>> OK, so they are trying to protect this as a "trade secret".  If
>> you discover a trade secret in legal ways, you are free to blab.
>Of course.  But how do you PROVE that that trade secret was discovered
>in a legal way?

In fact, even if you discover a trade secret because someone who signed a
non-disclosure agreement told you, you're free to blab.  So long as *you*
didn't sign such an agreement, you're under no restrictions.
-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
From: fhl@milton.u.washington.edu (Dean Pentcheff)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Help building internationalized "contrib" clients
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:45:43 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Department of Biology, University of South Carolina, Columbia

Date: 10 Sep 92 23:36:45 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep10.233645.15268@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In the course of trying to set up a Kanji-capable X system, I'm trying
to build some of the internationalized clients from the "contrib" X
distribution.

Like a good little X builder, I downloaded and applied the patches to
the appropriate contrib files.  The patching appeared to run
correctly.  Building the results fails miserably.  I'm following
instructions, using xmkmf and all that, but things fail to compile,
claiming syntax errors, missing includes, you name it.  I've
successfully compiled lots of other X code on this system, so it's
something more subtle than a basically fried X setup.

A) Are there tricks to getting some of the internationalized clients
and libraries to build at all?

B) Are there tricks to applying the patches correctly.  Although patch
didn't complain, some of the patches seem to be really bizarre
(doubling the contents of source files in xposit, for example).

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks for the help.

-Dean
From: elf@ee.ryerson.ca (luis fernandes)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:47:21 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto

Date: 14 Sep 92 17:04:03 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep14.170403.29324@ee.ryerson.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors

In article <BZS.92Sep12202920@ussr.std.com> bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>
>If you have a good quality photocopier you can photocopy optical mouse
>pads and use that. Someone recently posted a postscript program for
>producing optical mouse pads. 

> Some of them will work on well-worn denims.

Finally! A viable excuse to give the overlords when workplace
dress-code questions come up.

zxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzx
Luis Fernandes  <elf@ee.ryerson.ca>
-Friendly Neighbourhood X Wizard's Apprentice
zxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzxzx
From: brian@mdavcr.mda.ca (Brian Lemire)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Books on Porting X servers ???
Date: 6 Sep 92 09:08:59 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: MacDonald Dettwiler, 13800 Commerce Parkway, Richmond, BC, Canada  V6V 2J3

Date: 4 Sep 92 19:09:14 GMT
Message-Id: <2970@jeff.mdavcr.mda.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


	Does anyone know of books written on the design of and/or porting
the X window server ? (X11 R5 preferred). If this is not a FAQ, and there is
enough interest, I will post responses to this news group. Please E-Mail
responses to me, thanks

Brian Lemire
Macdonald Dettwiler
Richmond B.C.
From: oj@miki.pictel.com (Oliver Jones)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:30:49 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: PictureTel Corporation

Date: 9 Sep 92 17:47:49 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep9.174749.2863@miki.pictel.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

In article <9209081107.AA11744@vingmed.no> oaf@vingmed.no (Ole Asbjorn Fadum) writes:
>
>Is it possible to listen to the information excanged between
>xrdb and an application?

Use xscope or xmon ... ,but I don't think this is what you want.

>My problem is that I want to customize a popup window in a
>given application but I don't know what the name is.

Are you looking for the application class name?
Try this:

    xprop WM_CLASS
    (click on the popup in question)

Out come two strings, the name and class.

>My thought was that if you could see what resources the
>application requests it's easier (not easy) to find the
>resource responsible for the wanted popup.

Try this:

    appres Appclass
From: katz@lourie.und.ac.za (Moran Katz)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: xbm to gif/pcx/bmp/etc
Date: 13 Sep 92 07:37:35 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa

Date: 12 Sep 92 11:51:10 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep12.115110.6407@shrike.und.ac.za>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

Hi

I would like to know if there are anyone programmes out there that will
convert from xbm to gif/pcx or any other format that I can use on a PC.

Thanks
Moran
From: ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Lance Franklin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: X interface to tar?
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:36:23 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: NC Microproducts, Inc.

Date: 3 Sep 92 22:41:06 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep3.224106.10842@ncmicro.lonestar.org>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

Has anybody seen an Xtool that frontends tar?

That's all....thanks.


Lance
-- 
Lance T. Franklin            +----------------------------------------------+
(ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org)   | "You want I should bop you with this here    |
NC Microproducts, Inc.       |    Lollipop?!?"                 The Fat Fury |
Richardson, Texas            +----------------------------------------------+
From: dan@gordian.com (Dan Lambright)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: window setup savers
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:54:20 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA

Date: 10 Sep 92 22:41:25 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep10.224125.5395@gordian.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


Alot of times I have different window setups in my workstation for 
different projects- for example I have 3 debugging windows,
3 monitoring windows, and 3 input windows, plus an emacs session
for one application.  Each time I change applications I have
to re-setup all of my windows, which is realy time consuming.

I have heard of "session savers" which save your window configuration
in a file (or even as an icon,) that you can pull up or re-run
whenever you want.  Does anyone out there know of a program
of this type available over the public domain?

Dan Lambright
From: chris@ods.com (Chris Atkins)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Colormap stuff
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:02:37 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Optical Data Systems, Inc.

Date: 10 Sep 92 18:36:42 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep10.183642.906@ods.com>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif,comp.windows.x.intrinsics

Rajeev Tipnis (rtipnis@cs.wpi.edu) wrote:
: 	Thanks to all those who sent me mail or followed up to 
: 	my posting on "how to change the colormap cells on the 
: 	fly".
: 
: 	I am including some code here, which lets the programmer
: 	figure, how not to touch the color cells of the colormap
: 	which are getting used by other applications on the same
: 	display, and use the rest of the colormap. 
: 	
: 	Thanks again for all your help.
: 
: 
: SetupMyColormap()
Before one thinks about using method to determine colormap cells in use, there
are several points which should be brought up about it's shorcomings.

1) The number of unused cells in the colormap and the number of read/write cells
   which can be allocated is not necessarily the same number.
2) This approach makes a copy of the std colormap at an instant in time.  There    is nothing to say that clients may not have their own read/write color cells
   and change them in the default map.  They would not be changed in your map 
   and flashing would occur.
3) Read only color cells do not necessarily keep the same rgb value for the
   lifetime of the server.  The server may free read only cells when no client
   has it allocated, or as in the case of the NEWS server, the server may try to   limit flashing and modify the colormap as focus is changed.
4) The window manager handles the swapping of colormaps based on focus.  If you
   are installing read/write color cells in a private map, they are not being 
   installed in any other color maps which may be installed by the window 
   manager.  Your application will not show up correctly when focus is changed
   from your window.

In summary, X does not provide the application sufficient information to eliminate flashing whenever private colormaps are used.

Chris Atkins
chris@ods.com
From: mramos@dtc.uvigo.es (Manuel Ramos Cabrer)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: 14 Sep 92 16:19:10 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Workstation Div., Supermicro Systems Group, Sony Corporation

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 16:02:31 +0100
Message-Id: <9209141502.AA02345@duero.dtc.uvigo.es>


	Please, unsubscribe me
			Thanks.
From: hooft@fys.ruu.nl (Rob Hooft)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: help - DEC.5000 / twm / .X11Startup
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:56:41 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands

Date: 11 Sep 92 10:03:40 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.100340.4652@fys.ruu.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix,comp.windows.x

In <BuCI2t.MnL@cs.psu.edu> ward@math.psu.edu (Brian Ward) writes:

>and my .X11Startup looks like this:

>xset fp+ (our X11R5 fonts - it's big)
>xset fp rehash
>xmodmap $HOME/.Xmodmap-dec
>vtwm &
>xv -quit -root -rmode 5 $HOME/iff/bill+ted.gif &

>which I admit, is kind of hokey. you could possibly end with

>twm
>kill `some ugly thing to get the sm pid`

Is there any way to avoid starting the session manager at all? I
recently installed the Motif package on our cluster, and on 16Mb
stations the combination of xconsole and xsession is a real memory
problem. By using vtwm instead of mwm, xclock instead of dxclock, and
xcalc instead of dxcalc, and by killing the xconsole at startup the
system is workable, but I would really like to get rid of the session
manager too (It eats about 1600kB).

Anyone?
-- 
Rob Hooft, Bijvoet Center for Biomolecular Research, 
Chemistry department University of Utrecht, the Netherlands
hooft@hutruu54.bitnet hooft@chem.ruu.nl hooft@fys.ruu.nl hooft@cc.ruu.nl
From: bpdsun1!rmf@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU (Rob Finley)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: ACM flight sim and owm 3.0.  What was the patch for acms dump core?
Date: 8 Sep 92 06:09:41 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Harris Allied Broadcast Div., Quincy, IL

Date: 8 Sep 92 00:28:02 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep8.002802.7304@bpdsun1.uucp>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x


Greetings.  At last, our sysadmin dumped owm2.0 and installed 3.0 and
all the wonderful libraries needed to compile acm, the flight simulator.


I got past the font problem in NewPlayer.c (going from 17pt to 18pt).

Now, the library test works great and I can start up acms without
problems but when I try to run acm, acms gets a segmentation fault
and dumps core.


Was this problem ever resolved?  Email to the author bounces.
Thanks for your time.

Robert


-----
quintro!bpdsun1!rmf@lll-winken.llnl.gov or uunet!tiamat!quintro!bpdsun1!rmf
From: klode@syslab.csd.uwo.ca (Claude Morin)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: (NOT #94 from FAQ): problems linking X11R5 under SunOS 4.1.2
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:43:17 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario, London

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:19:49 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.221949.556@julian.uwo.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x

[I've posted this to the sun-managers mailing list]

I'm trying to build X11R5 (fix-17) on a SparcStation 2 running SunOS 4.1.2.

Note that I've successfully built the same version -- from the same copy of the
sources -- on a SparcStation ELC running SunOS 4.1.1.

When I make World, things chug along nicely until the compile of
$TOPDIR/mit/extensions/test/shapetest.c.  Here's a log:

=====
making all in ./extensions/test...
cc -O -pipe -I../include  -I../../.     -DSHAPE -DMULTIBUFFER -DMITMISC -DPEXEXT
 -DMITSHM  -target sun4 -c  shapetest.c
rm -f shapetest
cc -o shapetest shapetest.o -O -pipe  -L../.././extensions/lib -lXext -L../.././
lib/X -lX11 -L/usr2/X.V11R5/lib    
ld: Undefined symbol
   __XdmcpAuthDoIt
   __XdmcpAuthSetup
*** Error code 2
=====

You'll notice that the compile was fine; it was the link that died.  Now, if
I go to the ELC and try to link the shapetest.o and the libraries built by the
sparc 2, ld doesn't complain.

Back on the sparc 2, if I link the program with the 'ld' from the ELC that
ld does not complain (I obtained the ld command line with cc -v).

Furthermore, if I add -L../../lib/X/Xdmcp -lXdmcp to the link command,
ld doesn't complain.

Has anyone encountered this problem, or does anyone know what might be causing
it?  I don't mind being called an idiot if I've missed something obvious; I
just want to solve this problem.

Email replies to me; I'll summarize.
Thanks
From: ematias@dgp.toronto.edu (Edgar Matias)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:18:58 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto

Date: 9 Sep 92 21:06:19 GMT
Message-Id: <1992Sep9.170618.15240@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,comp.human-factors


snail@lsl.co.uk writes:
>
>I'm right handed and use my mouse with my left hand. This is so obvious and
>yet most right handed people use the mouse with their right hand. This has the
>disadvantage that most right handed peoples left hands aren't capable of much

I'm afraid you are wrong about that.  For typing, right-handed people can
type as fast or faster with their left hand than their right.  An experiment
has be performed that tested this.  I can't remember the reference off the
top of my head, but I can look it up if anyone is interested.

It makes a lot more sense to use your dominant hand for the mouse and
your non-dominant hand for typing.  Right-handed people should use their
right hand for the mouse.

Edgar
From: brtmac@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu (Brett McCoy)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.x-window
Subject: Re: Free software and the future of support for Diamond products
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:27:00 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: Kansas State University

Date: 7 Sep 92 19:13:38
Message-Id: <BRTMAC.92Sep7191338@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386,comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux,comp.os.mach,comp.unix.bsd

In article <Bu8Drt.2Ls@news.cso.uiuc.edu> pereckas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (pereckas michael s) writes:

>>I have also had to boot MSDOS just to run the diagnostics on nearly every
>>card.
>
>Just think of MS-DOS as a super ROM monitor that isn't in ROM, or a
>special hardware diagnostic/configuration mode.  :-) :-) :-)

Here's an idea.  Make new boot ROMS for intel based boxes that have a
Sun like boot monitor *and* MS-DOS.  If you use 1M flash ROMS it should
be easy to fit it all and easy to upgrade.  That way all the MS-DOS
executables for configuring and testing hardware can be run easily
without have to degrade the machine by installing MS-DOS on it.

++Brett;