HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:40:01 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <13657@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:
>This thread has drifted into a argument of Pro-life/Pro-Abortion. 
>The heart of this issue is not rather you are Pro or Anti abortion,
>the issue to be decided here is who is going to make the decision 
>George Bush and his Holy Supreme Court or the women who should be
>able to decide for themselves under their constitutional rights.
>
>You can be Pro-Choice and not be Pro-Abortion, it's a question of
>rights not morality.

That's right.  The question is does the right of the mother to control
her own body outweigh the right to life of the child.  A simple review
of the Constitution finds no "right to privacy" that Blackmun et al
based Roe v. Wade on.  However, the 5th clearly states that no person
can be deprived of life without due process.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Life's Little Instruction Book:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            | "#138.  Learn Spanish.  In a few years,
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  more than 35% of all Americans will speak
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  it as their first language."
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Car licensing fees
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:58:00 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <04Lqr*BK0@caleb.UUCP> jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes:
>The lottery is a tax on stupidity and ignorance.

Yet another reason to support it. Anything that is taxed decreases; maybe we
can help lower the collective stupidity level by taxing it.

>Why do you think that it is
>moral for the government to cheat those who can least afford it?

It's a matter of freedom of choice. According to lubertarian ideology, if you
take something from someone involuntarily, you're stealing it; a lottery,
being a voluntary contribution to the government, is not theft.

Please explain how the government is cheating those who play the lottery,
especially in light of the fact that information on how many prizes there are
and what the chances are of winning each prize is freely available.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:14:40 GMT

In article <21189@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>You can
>measure and read brainwaves at 8 weeks.  

This seems to conflict with what I am told, and given your bias I
don't think I care to accept your claims.  I'll check further and get
back to you, but for now, I'll accept the word of the lady I know who
works at the lab for the drug company over the word of the guy who
works on computers.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 25 Jul 92 18:02:25 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <00711843674@elgamy.sccsi.com> elg@elgamy.sccsi.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>Note to the pro-choice flamers -- I'm not a Christian fundamentalist nor a
>conservative, so please re-direct your torches. My asbestos suit is
>currently at the cleaner's from Mr. Haugh's last flames directed in my
>direction.

If you continue to display rational positions on the "beginning of human
life" issue you might just find your asbestos suit spending more time in
the closet and less on your body ...

By the way - did you have your brother contact the Texas Commission for
The Blind (or whatever ...) as I suggested?
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Vida en La Republica de Tejas:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            |  A Tejana woman, after spending the rent
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  money on the Tejas Lottery - "I can't go
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  home, my husband will beat me up."
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:38:49 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <21211@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>And as for incest, not all incest related pregnancies end in abortion.
>Nor do all women who become pregnant as a result of rape kill their
>children.  After all, the kid is as much hers as if she and her mate
>conceived the child.  The child STILL has 23 chromosomes from her.  It
>is STILL her child.  

	Rosemary's baby, to her mind.



-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"You know what they say about a honey bear. If you shave off all that baby
hair, you have a hairy-minded pink bare bear."- Lou Reed.
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:46:20 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: River Parishes Programming, Austin, Republic of Texas

In article <1992Jul29.225917.25126@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <21208@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>|> It isn't slavery simply because the woman (generally speaking) consented
>|> to becoming pregnant.
>
>Obviously not, or she wouldn't be seeking to terminate her pregnancy.
 
No, at the time she became pregnant, she consented.  If you are told you
will get pregnant by having sex and you have sex anyway, you consented.
That's the LEGAL definition.  She might have changed her mind later, but
that doesn't negate her original consent.  She might have thought she
could beat the odds, but again, that doesn't negate her original consent.

>|> Actually, you support the argument that you shouldn't be responsible for
>|> your actions.
>
>Obviously you don't consider abortion to be a "responsible" solution.
>I do.

I don't consider any act where you shift the burden for a bad choice onto
someone else to be "responsible."
-- 
John F. Haugh II                   | Life's Little Instruction Book:
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151            | "#138.  Learn Spanish.  In a few years,
UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh |  more than 35% of all Americans will speak
Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org      |  it as their first language."
Xref: sparky tx.politics:3327 austin.talk:174
From: curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072)
Newsgroups: tx.politics,austin.talk
Subject: MANDATORY SUMMER SCHOOL:  TX COMMISSIONER SUBMITS PLAN
Date: 19 Jul 92 18:42:54 GMT
Reply-To: curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch/131072)
Followup-To: tx.politics
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin, TX


       =====  GOAL THREE:  CORE COURSE PROFICIENCY  =====

*1   MANDATORY SUMMER SCHOOL:  TX COMMISSIONER SUBMITS PLAN
     TX Ed Commissioner Lionel Meno has proposed mandatory summer
school for public school pupils who flunk at least once in the early
elementary grades (Terrence Stutz, DALLAS MORNING NEWS).  Meno:
"Summer vacation is non-productive for these kids.  We need to use
summer vacation to catch these children up."
     Meno made his proposal to the TX Higher Education Coordinating
Board.  He noted that one-fourth of all students per year must repeat
at least one year by the third grade.  He added that of that quarter of
students, approximately 95% eventually fail to complete H.S.  Meno
said:  "We must go back and redefine compulsory education requirements
in Texas.  If we don't ... the retention rate will climb."
     According to the MORNING NEWS, Meno said the additional costs that
would be incurred with mandatory summer school would be offset by
obviating the need for students to repeat a grade.  Meno added that
parents should not be able to opt out of sending their children to the
summer program.
     The proposal will be considered by the TX Board of Ed and state
Legislature (7/17).


curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |       Austin, TX
 FICA doesn't help the poor.  It mostly goes to old people with incomes >$40k.
From: jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Car licensing fees
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:55:44 GMT
Organization: is sometimes desirable

In article <7018@lib.tmc.edu>, Jay Maynard writes:

> I play the lottery exactly because I feel it should be encouraged, as the only
> voluntary (and, according to libertarians, moral) tax around.

The lottery is a tax on stupidity and ignorance.  Why do you think that it is
moral for the government to cheat those who can least afford it?


                                                Jim Pritchett


UUCP:  rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!jdp
 or    utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!jdp
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:22:36 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc

In article <1992Jul21.205515.13341@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>
>Drawing the line at the presence of heartbeat or brainwaves is just as
>arbitrary as drawing it at conception or viability or birth.  It's
>just the point that makes the most sense to *you*, that's all.

Well, an argument can reasonably be made that brainwaves is a good
indicator of when it is 'life', since lack of brainwaves is how we
determine death in (at least) most states.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: AIDS info to kids? (was Re: separation of church and state)
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:59:50 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Jul23.154024.27517@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.204959.3476@NeoSoft.com>, rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:
>|> 	There's nothing wrong with driving cars, or drinking alcohol,
>|> either. There _is_ a problem when any of these is performed by folks
>|> w/o properly understanding the mechanics, purpose, and possible
>|> consequences of the act(s). 
>
>You tell me:  What is the "purpose" of sex?

	To propagate. The pleasure is nature's incentive.
>
>|> This goes for adults, too, but we can say
>|> with relative accuracy that most kids don't understand. 
>
>If they can understand the possible consequences of driving a car,
>they can also understand the consequences of having sex.  It's not
>that hard.

	At what age do you feel people should be allowed to drive? vote?
drink booze?  And since it's "not that hard", why all the problems (teen
pregnancy, for example)?

>|> >     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
>|> 
>|> 	Naive at best, ignorant at worst.
>
>Please explain your reasoning behind this assessment of the Nietzsche
>quote.

	Nah, that was another Nietzsche quote. (-: It can be easily 
disproven, for one thing. It's naive, because it targets only (I assume)
faith w.r.t. religion, not faith as a human emotion (which it is). Since
I have to think Mr. N. wasn't naive, I expect he was ignoring other forms
(the whole form) of faith. Ergo- ignorant (which doesn't mean stupid). 
It seems pretty clear that Nietzsche was attacking religious faith, and
(though I haven't but want to read his work) I'd be surprised if he didn't
later discount this particular quote himself. Faith is often (probably most
frequently) felt as a result of a traumatic situation, or in the midst of
same. Clearly, I think, in such cases, no decision as to wanting to know
the truth is even part of this process. At some point, for people in these
situations, reality as we experience it "breaks down", doesn't provide a coping
mechanism. Faith is that. Furthermore, when I have faith in another human,
what don't I want to know? Faith in such a case, I might agree, exists in me
because I can't know.
 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"You know what they say about a honey bear. If you shave off all that baby
hair, you have a hairy-minded pink bare bear."- Lou Reed.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:07:06 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Jul20.214940.10712@Arco.COM> cgp@Arco.COM (Chris Phillips  (214) 754-6419) writes:
>Why do you object to "technological marvels?"  Apparently, you
>wouldn't object to the marvel that would bring about your
>"stop supporting abortion."

I don't, generally. The two cases you cite are separate. I have no problems at
all with the technological marvels necessary to allow a host mother to
terminate the fetus' parasitic dependency.

>Why do you have to see?  You already know it's there.

Because if I can't see it, it is still biologically dependent on th host
mother, and therefore not a separate individual.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
  "An empty stomach is not a good political adviser." -- [edible] fortune
          cookie, received the night Perot withdrew from candidacy
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: john@johniac.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 22:46:59 GMT
Distribution: tx
Reply-To: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division, Austin, TX

In article <21193@rpp386.lonestar.org>, jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
 
|> Actually, it hasn't.  In the English speaking world, "baby" is and
|> was the most common term.  

I didn't say "fetus" was the most common term, I said it's been around
longer that 30 years.  It's just a more precise term, that's all. 
"Baby" is used by people to describe the age range from conception to
2 years or so after birth.  "Fetus" is generally used to describe 12 
weeks gestation to birth.  The labels that people use in informal
conversation aren't particularly relevent to the abortion debate.

|> You are a parasite.  You got into your domicile and set up house.
|> How you got there is irrelevant.

I'm not physically attached to the wall of my house with an umbilical
cord which draws nutrients from my house, and my house isn't a
human being anyway.  This is a pretty dumb analogy.

|> The trees that were slaughtered
|> to build the house don't care for the parasitic relationship you
|> have developed ...

The trees are welcome to try to remove me, but I'm not too worried
about it.

|> "Parasite" means something, and it doesn't mean "unborn child."
|> This is NOT Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass" ...

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary: 

parasite  1: a sycophant (irrelevant here)
          2: an organism living in or on another organism in
             parasitism (I love these circular definitions)
          3: something that resembles a biological parasite in
             dependence on something else for existence or support
             without making a useful or adequate return.

Definition 3 is a pretty good description of a fetus.

-- 
John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
     "Faith:  not *wanting* to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:41:53 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Jul30.193026.23209@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <7036@lib.tmc.edu>, jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>|> [...] model of respect as an account, with debits and credits [...]
>I give all people who I don't know the same initial positive balance. 
>I see no reason to give a higher balance to certain people based on
>what they do for a living.

Once again, I must (respectfully :-) disagree. I have a lot more respect for
someone who puts his life on the line to protect me from the bad guys than I
do for a used car salesman. They've earned that extra positive amount simply
by their willingness to go out there and get shot at. The same applies for
firefighters and soldiers. I have a lot of respect for astronauts simply
because they've got to be amazingly qualified to even be seriously considered,
much less chosen. They start off with a high positive balance. The bum on the
street, on the other hand, doesn't rate much of one (though he still gets
some). A burglar breaking in my house gets a large negative balance to start
off with. My boss gets a moderately large one the day I start working for him,
and it fluctuates (sometimes wildly) from there. And so on.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: cheselka@cactus.org (Michael R. M. Cheselka)
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, PO Box 9786, Austin, TX 78766-9786
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:14:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.212615.33786@watson.ibm.com> johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>
>Respect must be earned.  If you treat people with respect, they are
>likely to treat you with respect in return.  Respect by mandate
>doesn't work.
>
>John Iacoletti    IBM AWD Austin    Internet: johniac@hwperform.austin.ibm.com

Respect is like credit, given out in modest amounts, to see if it is well
placed.  Don't you think everyone is due some respect, until you see
otherwise?
-- 
os9@gnu.ai.mit.edu     (512)452-9412 (answr. mach.)     Michael R. M. Cheselka
cheselka@cactus.org    Hangs out on 145.21mhz    N5UVV    400 W. 34th st. #103
membership@cactus.org {...}!cs.utexas!cactus.org!cheselka Austin, Texas, 78705
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:21:11 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <21208@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>It isn't slavery simply because the woman (generally speaking) consented
>to becoming pregnant.

Bzzt. A woman who takes the necessary steps to avoid conception has, by that
action, demonstrated conclusively that, while she may have consented to having
sex, she has not consented to becoming a mother. There's no way we can force
her to do so. I ask again, since you ignored the question the first time: what
are you going to do, incarcerate her to prevent her from taking the coathanger
route to freedom?

>"economic slavery" or "economic parasitism" argument that you keep pushing.

I'm not the one pushing it. You are, in inadequate response to my argument
that the fetus is a biological parasite on the host mother.

>Slavery implies a lack of consent.

She has not consented to become a mother. You would force her to anyway.

>And I know we will get the "what about rape?"
>line next - well, I understand that for the last year the figures were in,
>there were a whopping 8 abortions performed for women who became pregnant
>as a result of rape.  That's out of 1.7M.

Source?
What about incest? What, for that matter, about underreporting?

>It's so nice to know that you believe people should accept responsibility
>for their actions.  I mean, _anyone_ can pay for your little genetic droppings,
>right?

He who wants the child can pay for it. The anti-abortionists' argument that
there are families out there just waiting to adopt lends credence to this one:
let them adopt the child, and let them pay for it.

>Actually, you support the argument that you shouldn't be responsible for
>your actions.  No one asked the child to be born.  You could have just kept
>your pants on.  Then there wouldn't be some child suffering because you
>refuse to clean up after you make a mess.

If the mother chooses to have it, she should make that choice with _all_ the
facts in front of her, including the fact that she's going to have hardships
in raising the child singlehandedly. That oughtta make you happy, John: it
should definitely cut down on the number of single parents.

You give away your true agenda with your third sentence in that paragraph:
You're as much anti-sex as you are anti-abortion.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
From: mmeyer@m2.dseg.ti.com (Mark Meyer)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: HR 4983
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:31:16 GMT
	<1992Jul20.203806.28102@mksol.dseg.ti.com> <21183@rpp386.lonestar.org>
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc. - Plano TX

In article <21183@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> Any child with a heartbeat and/or brainwaves may not be killed
> without due process.  That would put the upper limit on legal abortion
> at 5 to 8 weeks gestational age.

	My opinion disagrees with the half of that.  I don't think
heartbeat is relevant.  You don't need a human heart to be a person;
some people have artificial hearts.  However, for personhood, a brain,
specifically a cerebrum, being the seat of all our thoughts, is
indispensable.  I would go with a definition based only on cerebral
brain activity.  Would the timing of this event be different from the
5-8 week estimate above?

-- 
Mark Meyer                                               | mmeyer@dseg.ti.com |
Texas Instruments, Inc.                                  +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
"Your present is under the tree.  It's the ticking one marked 'Open Me First.'"
Newsgroups: tx.politics