HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wishnu@cs.ruu.nl (Wishnu Prasetya)
Subject: Kraton will lost its palace?
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:12:06 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

Hi there!

I stumbled upon an article from a Dutch newspaper, dating from last
month, or is it from the month before.

Anyway, according to the report the Kraton of Yogya seems incapable of
maintaining itself, that is, it doesn't has enough money. So Your
Highness Sultan made a deal with a large contractor to surender part
of His Highness palace to be made a luxurious hotel. In return the
Kraton will get something like 20% of the hotel's share. One of the
princess is apparently disagree and reported to threat with hunger
strike if the plan continues. This is of course much to the Your
Highness fury.

Irronically, I find it, that it was the Javaneses that decided to keep
up their monarch. Which is all fine of course, but they forget that
they have to pay for that, as keeping such is not a cheap luxury. I
find that selling part of a palace is not a very dignifying thing to
do, although at this point it may be necessary. I find that the
Javaneses must take the responsibility of their decision, and thus
contribute more money for the maintanace of the Kraton. UNLESS such
has indeed become too burdensome. But then one has to be fair and
admit that such is the case.

The contractor could actually show more respect to the culture, more
share to the Kraton is certainly possible. Report says that the
contractor is a company own by the son of a certain high official. So
much for 45 patriotism, and so much for a folk who claims to be well
cultured.

-Jade
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: rgc@eagle.inesc.pt (Rui Gustavo Crespo)
Subject: Re: about ET: to indonesians (others also welcome)
Organization: INESC
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:49:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.181348.44564@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, hsiahaan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
|> ...
|>
|> my suggestion: instead of telling us we are wrong, help us find ways for faster
|> and smoother integration of ET to indonesia.

How about...

First: ask the East Timorease people if they want, or not, to integrate
Indonesia.
If that's the case, Indonesia will have no problems to integrate ET smoothly.
If not (and I suspect so, concerning what the indonesian army has done in the
last 17 years), only by military occupation and massacres Indonesia will
integrate ET. That also means the integration will only be smooth after killing
every timeorease.

---------------------

Now another suggestion. Why don't you try an Andorra solution for ET? In 20 years
time, you could then make a referendum for ET (independence or integration in
Indonesia). That would be much smoother, don't you think so?

|> 
|> thank you 
|> 

All the best...

---Crespo
==============================================================================
|| .-. .-  .- || Rui Gustavo Crespo                                         ||
|| |_| |_  |  || INESC, Software Engineering Group                          ||
|| | \ |_| |_ || R. Alves Redol 9, Apart 10105, 1017 Lisboa Codex, Portugal ||
|| ~~~~~~~~~~ || Phone: +351 1 3100 204      E-mail: rgc@eniac.inesc.pt     ||
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: rgc@eagle.inesc.pt (Rui Gustavo Crespo)
Subject: Re: Followup * Reply (East Timor)
Organization: INESC
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 13:40:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.052912.21667@random.ccs.northeastern.edu>, okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria) writes:

|> >Our interest is simply to let the timorease people to have a say: it may
|> >be independence, staying with Indonesia (honestly, I doubt it after
|> >indonesian troups have done in the last 17 years), whatever they want!
|> >
|> People can have a say without creating a new country...

This means that the maubere people is free to express ther opinion IF, AND ONLY
IF, IT MATCHES TO THE INDONESIAN OPINION! That is totally unacceptable, and
contradicts the first part of yours statement "People can have a say".
Of course there are solutions for East Timor that does not create a new country.
Here comes one from my previous posting...

My I suggest one (possible) solution for this conflict? Why not make East
Timor some sort of Andorra? Andorra is a small country between Spain and
France, with great autonomy, no army and ruled at upper-level by Spain
and France.
A similar arrangement could be made in East Timor. Upper administration
could be divided by Indonesia and Portugal. Local affairs could be dealt by
the timorese people because they have their own culture and religion.
Formally it would be not an independent state and timorease would feel no
longer under the indonesian rule alone. I also believe this would be an
acceptable solution for the international community.

Could you kindly comment this proposal?

|> >Why don't Indonesia let Human Rights organizations to
|> >move freely in East Timor? That makes you think about it, doesn't it?
|> 
|> Yes, it makes me think. But I believe that it's just because the Indonesian
|> government can handle the situation.

Santa Cruz massacre last year proves that is not the case! If the indonesian
government can handle (?!) the situation in an acceptable manner, as you suggest,
there should be no problem for observers to go there.
Usualy, governments forbid Human Rights organizations when they have many ugly
things to hide...

|> Oki
|> okidz@dworkin.ccs.northeastern.edu

All the best...

---Crespo
==============================================================================
|| .-. .-  .- || Rui Gustavo Crespo                                         ||
|| |_| |_  |  || INESC, Software Engineering Group                          ||
|| | \ |_| |_ || R. Alves Redol 9, Apart 10105, 1017 Lisboa Codex, Portugal ||
|| ~~~~~~~~~~ || Phone: +351 1 3100 204      E-mail: rgc@eniac.inesc.pt     ||
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: anto@donau.et.tudelft.nl (Anto Daryanto)
Subject: Re: Portugese : same ol' crap....
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:29:27 GMT

From article <92314.231823NXN101@psuvm.psu.edu>, by <NXN101@psuvm.psu.edu>:

> Tetapi di dalam newsgroup ini saya bertemu dengan orang Eropah yang  
>sama sikap dan mentaliti seperti ketiga-tiga orang yang saya sebut
sebelumnya.  
> Tolonglah, saudara, NASIHATILAH teman-teman orang putih saudara yang belum 
> mengerti keadaan sesungguhnya di rantau ini. Saya sedih melihat orang-orang 
> putih yang "begok" dan "dungu" yang cuba berdebat mengenai masalah Tim-Tim 
> tetapi "bodoh macam lembu"!!!!! 
>  
>Itu saja yang saya mohon.  Perlu diajarin lembu-lembu tersebut supaya 
> jadi pinter..... 
>  

**flame on** 

Saya tidak mengerti kenapa anda bisa begitu bencinya terhadap orang
putih. Saya sendiri anak perantauan, di Belanda. Orang di sini baik-baik,
rasisme nggak pernah saya alami, saya tidak setuju kalau pendapat sdr.
Nordin  mengasosiasikan semua orang putih sebagai "begok" dan "dungu",
juga  menganggap mereka sebagai "lembu". Saya tidak habis pikir apa yang
anda dapatkan di luar negri (apakah bisa dikatakan kalau anda sebagai
orang Indonesia tulen, atau karena anda sendiri ngiri dengan keadaan
orang putih?).

**flame off**

> 
> -azlan nordin-
>   Penn State

Anto Daryanto


--
Delft University of Technology,		|
Faculty of Electrical Engineering,    	| **********************************
Telecommunication- and Traffic-		|   **  Happy user of OS/2 2.0  **
Control Systems Group			| **********************************
					|
E-Mail: a.daryanto@dutetvd.et.tudelft.nl 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: edy@andersen.com (Edy Liongosari)
Subject: Indonesian Rest. in Washington D.C.
Organization: Andersen Consulting
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:56:08 GMT

Does any body know a good Indonesian restaurant around
Washington D.C. area?

-Edy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edy S. Liongosari                                E-mail: edy@andersen.com
Center for Strategic Technology Research            Phone: (312) 507-8482
Andersen Consulting                                   Fax: (312) 507-3526
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:00:03 -0500 
From: Irianto Sukaton <is08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Portugese : same ol' crap....
Distribution: alt.culture.indonesia

Excerpts from netnews.alt.culture.indonesia: 9-Nov-92 Re: Portugese :
same ol' cr.. by stephen epstein@cc.swart 
> discussion about East Timor degenerate into this name-calling.  I'm not
> defending one side or the other, but the lack of civility in the debate
> really depresses me. Do you really think Europeans are "all the same
> disgusting species"?  

Probably not.  But a post like this is inevitable under the circumstances.
Anyone else could have posted it: I myself was considering a more polite
version of it.  Something to the effect that "Eroupean group mentality
can be very disgusting".  It probably has something to do with being
part of a social-conscience that has been enslaved and exploited by
Europeans in recent history (500 years is recent for easterners).

Also, all these new-found interests Green-Peace, Amnesty International;
while they may aspire to things that are fundamentally right; it seems
like Third world nations (ex-colonies) feel the brunt of their anger
while people can clearly see that problems of similar or greater magnitude
in industrialized (ex-colonial) nations are not addressed as aggresively.
And ironically, it is the industrialized nations that garner most of the
gains --mostly economic-- of the transgression (environmental, human rights)
in Third world nations that are pointed out by the interest groups above.

This can be interpreted as an extension of colonialism by some.

>  
> Diharap Nor-Azlan Nordin mengerti bahwa dia menistai bukan saja orang putih
> seperti saya tetapi juga semua manusia. Tolonglah, saudara, pikir sekali
> lagi.
>  
> Stephen

Stephen,
Be patient (not that you aren't already) because it may (or may not) get
worse.  Civility can only be maintained if all involved follow some
common base protocol.  From my experiences lurking on the net, this
is not true in many cases.



Rouli
is08@andrew.cmu.edu

Standard Discalimer: The views and opinions stated above are mine only
		     and do not reflect the views of CMU.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: stop Timtim
From: andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:22:52 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Teman teman Sekalian,
Sebaiknya "acara" Timtim sesuai dengan anjuran beberapa teman
sebelumnya, kita sudahi saja. Nggak akan ada hasilnya.
Salam.
Andri.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:53:35 -0500 
From: Irianto Sukaton <is08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re:View from Timorese Resistance

Excerpts from netnews.alt.culture.indonesia: 4-Nov-92 Re: Re:View from
Timorese R.. by Mario J. Silva@mercenary 
> You probably are aware that your Timorese brothers (as well as some
> Indonesian) on the net do not reply to messages like yours for fear of
> retaliation.  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
I sincerely do not think so.  But I can see how someone like you,
who chooses to name an internet node MERCENARY could think that way.

>  
> Howver, it seemd to be clear to me from Horta's interview that
> Timorese people do not feel as your brothers. 

Maybe so.  But as an aside; what are the background of these "Leaders
of the East Timorese Resistance"?  How did they (or their) relatives
sided during rebellions against Portuguese colony?

>  
> As someone has put it, in terms of the relative size of its
> population, Timor has been the place of the worst genocide in the 20th
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> century. It is very hard for me to believe that the majority of the
> Timorese would look to Indonesians as brothers in the same way you
> look, given the recent common history.
>  

As far as I can tell, the jury's still out on that.  I am wary of US
census results, let alone one done in a third world nation, with
fragile cooperation.

> Someone in another posting suggested that Timorese had to be governed
> by Indonesia because they are a primitive people living in the
> information age. Just because they are primitive, shouldn't they at
> least be allowed to have a word on how they want to be governed?

Isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing?

>  
> There is no point in saying that the Americans exterminated the
> Indians and others did this and that. ALL were wrong. The current
> planned elimination of the Timorese culture falls in the same category
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What?  Who?  You're definitely way off base.

> and is also wrong.
>  
> The same about the schools (that teach the main Indonesian language
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> along with Suharto's propaganda) that Indonesia claims it has been
> creating. From Horta's interview, it seemd clear that what they want
> in the first place is the Indonesian army out of their country. 
>  
> Mario.

As a general policy, local languages or dialects are taught at
public schools.  Classroom instruction is usually in Indonesian.
Lingua franca is needed to get ANYTHING done in the WORLD.  Do you
only take classes that are held in Portuguese at UCB?  It would be
a great disservice not to teach Indonesian to the students of Timor
Timur as most of the business is held in Indonesian.

Rouli
is08@andrew.cmu.edu

Standard Discalimer: The views and opinions stated above are mine only
		     and do not reflect the views of CMU.


Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: dewanto@cae.wisc.edu (Gaston Dewanto)
Subject: Re: Report About Trip To East Timor
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 4 Nov 92 23:29:00 CST

Apart from the situation described as controlled by the military that
makes people afraid, I think the others are normal.

We teach using Indonesian language in schools. As mentioned before,
we have hundreds of local languages. Unless we have a common communication tool
among ourselves, we will have problem in maintaining our integrity.
And the students also have to wear uniforms every day. 

There are many areas in Indonesia that have bad transportation facilities
like in East Timor.  I don't think that Indonesia is neglecting the 
development there, however the situation makes it difficult to do.

I think the German tourist should not make a comparison between East Timor
situation and situation in his country or even situation in Jawa.
Jawa is much more developed than other islands in Indonesia.
From: kh@litsun17.epfl.ch (Mark S.)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: Indonesian Rest.
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:59:46 GMT
	<P91083SW.92Nov9121027@tom00.tom.ai.kyutech.ac.jp>
Reply-To: kh@litsun.epfl.ch
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
In-reply-to: p91083sw@tom.ai.kyutech.ac.jp's message of 9 Nov 92 03:10:27 GMT

Di Belanda ada BANYAK. 

Anybody who wants to know more about rest. in The Netherlands: mail me, I am going there this friday for 2 months. 

wassalam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Soekarjo				Living in a postcard

postcards to 	la Maison Rose		e-mail to	kh@litsun.epfl.ch
		Ch. des Clos 53		fax		+41'21'693'41'11
		CH-1024 Ecublens	voice		+41'21'693'34'83
		****europe*****         canned voice    +41'21'693'31'03
--

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Soekarjo				Living in a postcard

postcards to 	la Maison Rose		e-mail to	kh@litsun.epfl.ch
		Ch. des Clos 53		fax		+41'21'693'41'11
		CH-1024 Ecublens	voice		+41'21'693'34'83
		****europe*****         canned voice    +41'21'693'31'03
From: andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: 100
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:42:19 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

?
From: andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re:Welcome
Date: 9 Nov 92 05:08:05 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

?
From: andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re:to all Portuguese
Date: 9 Nov 92 06:08:52 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Dear Joao,
may God bless you.

First of all, we are not racist. If you are willing to know more about
us, let me tell you something : Indonesia probably is the only country
in the world adopting a unique perspective and philosophy on history
and geography. Any student who has finished their junior high school
(throughout Indonesia) is very well-informed about about our and the
world history and geography. I still remember the first civilization
emerged in India, China, and in the Middle East, how they
successively, and in different ways enriched our identity. If you go
to Indonesia, you will find Mahatma Gandhi Street, Dr.Sun Yat Sen
Street,Jose Rizal Street for example,in almost every city in
Indonesia.This doesn't mean we don't have any other heroes. We do have
many. This only means that our history is bigger than the size of our
country and far from chauvinistic. In Indonesia you could not pass the
junior high school if you are not knowledgeable for example about the
rise and fall of Spain and Portugal. You must know Iberia
at least since the Roman era. You must know Andalusia,and the people,
the Keltiberian, the Omayyads, the Mowahids, The Moravids, the
legendary Queen Isabella,the Spanish Bourbons,etc. You could read all
of these in a good encyclopedia but having an encyclopedia you never
read is different from having all of these in YOUR head. All
Indonesian students who get B in their junior high school world history
course HAVE these in their heads. HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT US,SIR?
if you think we are EQUAL.  

      



 

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu (Luis Miguel Silveira)
Subject: Re: Re:View from Timorese Resistance
Organization: Research Laboratory of Electronics, Massachusetts Institute of
	Technology
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:01:56 GMT



I did not see the original post that originated this reply.  Must have
missed it or maybe it never got it.  Can anyone sent me a copy (or
explain)?

Please note that I do not in any way speak for Mr. Horta (I do not
even know who he is; I assume it is Mr. Ramos Horta, representative of
the East Timorese resistance movement, but I could be wrong)

   In article <1992Nov4.015745.44379@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
   andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

   Mr.Horta,
   I don't know what you will become if you were in power in East Timor.
   If you are not a kind of person like Polpot, if you really love your
   people, if you are not communist, and if you respect your own
   cultural Identity then you are already Indonesian.

I guess loving your people, respecting Indonesian culture and not
being a communist are all virtues.  I can see the first two; however I
fail to see the relation to the third.

Loving your people and respecting a countries culture are matters of
social respect and therefore somethign we can expect people to guide
themselves by.  Being a communis is an ideology and anyone can have
its own...

   Indonesia is yours as well it is ours.

I truly think you believe this and likely with the best of intentions.
it seems that the East Timorese do not agree with you and instead see
themselves as an entity separated from Indonesia.  Should you force
your point of view on them or hear what they want for themselves ?

   Nobody in this world
   love you more than us because they are not your brothers.

I felt very tempted to say that you have a strange way of showing your
brotherly love.  There, I said it...

   We are related by BLOOD.SPEAK to us as a brother. 

It is alarming to think that in fact the East Timorese and the
Indonesians are in fact related by blood.  The blood of all those who
have died in the fight for their independence and their freedom.

It is time to put a stop to the killing of innocent people.  Let the
East Timorese decide their future.

-Miguel

--
=============================================================================
Luis Miguel Silveira                            e-mail : lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu
=============================================================================
Research Laboratory for Electronics  -  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Room 36-893, 77 Massachusetts Ave,                      Phone: (617)-253-7307
Cambridge MA 02139                                      Fax:   (617)-258-7864
=============================================================================
also affiliated with:
INESC - Instituto de Engenharia de Sistemas e Computadores
Av. Alves Redol, 9-3o, 1000 Lisboa, PORTUGAL           Phone: (351)-1-3100288
=============================================================================
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:26:06 -0500 
From: Irianto Sukaton <is08+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: what do you do when?...

Excerpts from netnews.alt.culture.indonesia: 5-Nov-92 what do you do
when?... by stephen epstein@cc.swart 
> This summer I was traveling in Sumatra and while there I met a student on a
> bus. We struck up a brief conversation and later had tea together.  Upon
> parting, he asked for my address, as many, many people did, and I willingly
> gave it to him, as always.  I've now received two letters from him in which
> he has been asking me for money. The first one I responded to cordially but
> was non-committal, since I wasn't even sure from his letter which of the
> many people I had met he was.  I feel a real dilemma at this point: on one
> hand I want to help out and have a real sympathy for his plight, even
> though I barely got to know him. Given the huge difference in purchasing
> power of American and Indonesian currency, it would not be a real problem
> for me to send, say, $10, and I know it would be of much more value over in
> Tanah Karo.  At the same time, however, I really don't want to foster a
> sense of dependence and it makes me question in retrospect the sincerity of
> his friendliness: did he really want to meet me, or was he just eager to
> meet a foreigner who might send him money later?  Do any people have advice
> or thoughts on how I can handle this situation in the most reasonable yet
> compassionate fashion?
>  
> Thanks,
> Stephen


Its your call, you must have some impression of his (in)sincerity.  Retrospect
and hindsight is good, it lets you step back and examine the situation
objectively.


Rouli
is08@andrew.cmu.edu

Standard Discalimer: The views and opinions stated above are mine only
		     and do not reflect the views of CMU.
From: NXN101@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: to all Portuguese
Date: 10 Nov 92 09:20:26 GMT
 <LMS.92Nov5012511@rle-vlsi.mit.edu> <lfuj6qINNcis@ozona.cs.utexas.edu>
Organization: Penn State University

In article <lfuj6qINNcis@ozona.cs.utexas.edu>, andrean@cs.utexas.edu (Andre A.
Nurwono) says:

>No doubt they're gonna get 'FOOLED' by other strong nations such that
>it becomes a 'TOY DOLL' country, i.e. being controlled by another
>country under the mask of having its own government, being independent.
>And it wouldn't do shit to the country's welfare.

Good point Andre!!!

That's what the western countries are trying to do, 500 years ago or now,
right to this minute.  They have that "holier than thou" attitude that
really baffled me to death.  They screamed democracy here and there; but,
they themselves never lived up to the standard.  Smartass tactic as such
will never work nowadays.

-azlan nordin-
  Penn State

>Andre Nurwono               | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
>andrean@cs.utexas.edu       |  thrust... (BOINNNG!)"  - Daffy Duck
>--
>Andre Nurwono               | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
>andrean@cs.utexas.edu       |  thrust... (BOINNNG!)"  - Daffy Duck