HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Williams Bartholomew Eston <lordbart@sol.acs.unt.edu>
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:30:34 GMT

My oppinoin is that, as was hinted at eariler, is that in the different relams
 the laws of physics are different.  They also reflect the views of the majority of the society.  (How humans on earth used to think that the earth was the
 center of the galaxy)  This is an example of the low tech axiom.  At this point
 it was not possible to have space flight.  Similary in the living land the
 tech is so low that no one has even thought that if we get a bigger and thicker
 stick the arrow will go farther and faster.  It is the view of the mojority of
 the society that does not allow them to do this.
Now, if some visionary does happen to make a thicker and longer stick, which
 happens to do a much better job, soon it will get around to the society.  Then
 the axioms will slowly change.  This tangent leads me to believe that maybe
 all inventors who come up with truly higher tech items are posibility rated.
 Since it takes a visionary (IMO) to come up with the truly new and adavanced
 ideas, maybe this is only because an ord cannot use his/her possibility rating,
 which he/she does not have, to use a higher tech item.
Just food for thought. :)
-- 
There is no right or wrong in our world.
The present changes the past from moment to moment,
Only pray that the future will vindicate your actions.
lordbart@unt.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re:  world laws
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 02:14:30 GMT

Well, if I'd been able to get the FAQ list out on time you'd have had
your answer before you asked it.  Unfortunately, my site computers died
on me over the weekend so I wasn't able to get it posted.  Hopefully
they'll leave me alone enough tonight so that I can finish the update
and get it out before too long....

Hmmm...anyone else having system troubles?  Maybe the Black Marble Wombat
is trying to spread its influence and people are disconnecting due to
their computers now operating under different realities....  8-)

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
From: mcdougal@lonestar.utsa.edu (Jon . McDougal)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: A small (HA!) request.
Summary: I need the laws.
Keywords: Axioms, laws, whatever.
Date: 17 Apr 92 08:10:37 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio


    Here's the situation, I am planning to run a GURPS: Torg game this
summer with the same 'theme' of other cosms invading the Earth, but I
am changing the invading forces around GREATLY! (None from the game will
appear in my version). But... I was hoping (praying) the people on here
could explain/mail me how the axioms/laws work, and perhaps I could
aquire a list of them, so I have something to model my new world laws
after. I've read the first three Torg books (did more ever come out) and
I am familiar with everything therein, but there are no listed laws in
the novels and they are very vague about the things they are planting
(harvesting) in the ground (the name slips my mind).

    Please, help me out with this... anything you could post/mail would
be more than welcomed. And I >JUST< added this channel to my .newsgroups,
so I have no idea if I am asking a FAQ or if I have missed this discussion
already.

One of the UnTorged,
                 Jon
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Axiom mania!
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:26:11 GMT
Organization: New York University

rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:
>marcogan@student.anu.edu.au writes:

>>I seem to have created a monster. But a very interesting monster,
>>nonetheless. I wish I was in the same time zone as everybody else so I
>>could reply less then twelve hours late...What follows is all, naturally,
>>IMHO.

>>I am aware that this (a) contradicts what is in the rulebook, and
>>                     (b) has little to do with the actualy *playing* of
>>TORG.
>>But *I* think its interesting, anyway.

>  But if it has nothing to do with the game, why is it interesting for
>you?  (I am curious, actually.  I'm not sure that I understand your
>motivation for your arguments.)

  I didn't mean to say that.  What you find interesting is your own
business, and it isn't for me to question it.

  What I mean to say is:

  "I look at this discussion as bearing upon how the Game mechanics
   should be played.  I'm having difficulty comprehending how you
   are interested in this topic independant of the game (as a game).

   Would you please enlighten me as to the aim of your point of view,
   so that I may judge your words according to your purposes and not
   mine?"

:-(  [It is TIME to go home and SLEEP.]

--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Psionic "Energy Routing"
Keywords: TORG
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:02:08 GMT
Organization: New York University


  Neat idea!

rwt@stiatl.salestech.com (Roger Terrell) writes:

>I've created a character with the psionic power of "Energy Routing."  Aside
>from grabbing energy from energy weapons, what else can you imagine this
>being used for?  Do you think that the power could be used to wrench
>energy out of electrical sockets, etc?

  Also to start automobiles without keys, crack electronic locks in
secret labs, get around password protections in computer systems,
fry cyberwear, electrify fences (from nearby electrical sockets)...

>Also, how useful is this power vs. energy weapons?  If the "heroes" get
>initiative, then there is no energy being fired at them just then.  If the
>"villains" get initiative, then the character wont get to activate the
>power until after already having been shot...

  As an active defense, the character would have to spend that round
prepared to be shot at.  However, there is no reason why they couldn't
use this active defense to protect someone else from being shot at.

  In the case of energy weapons, even in the other cases, I would (as a GM)
make backlash a condition of failing at this skill.  Also, the player would
have to say where the drained energy is going, so that a diverted
plasma bolt cannot simply disappear.  It would have to show up as a
nice explosion *somewhere*.  [Note, using the skill to crack an electric
lock would have little backlash, enough to cause some fatigue at worst.
Using the skill to divert a plasma gun might cause the player's head
to go *Boom* and ionize instantly.  (Effect of Vital Blow from P.G. to head.)
]

--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: trick shots
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:40:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: acf9.rose.702582025
Organization: New York University

oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes) writes:
>Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu) scolds:
> ! Dave writes:
> ! >i have developed a fast draw skill, which is NOT cosm specific
> ! >(so Nippon samurai can "whip this out" as well
> ! 
> ! Bad idea.  Allowing anyone the ability to gain the initiative just by
> ! buying a couple of skill adds is very overbalancing; making it available
> ! to everyone no matter their cosm is even worse.  
> ! 
> ! I was under the impression your 'fast draw' stuff was going to be part of
> ! gunslinging, not something seperate.  A skill that lets you alter the Drama
> ! Deck is going a bit far without something like a World Law behind it.

>i personally think that having one character (maybe two) go first,
>with the added multi action penalty (usually), a chance of failure
>(diff 20 standard, 25-30 dramatic, failure means NO action)
>is going to imbalance the action deck.
>(haste cards already exsist, and this wont give two actions a round...)
>...
>the expansion of the fast draw to other cosms was easy for me.
>i feel that Nippon and Nile deserve it, the 'Papacy maybe.
>of the other cosms only Aysle will bother, and i feel
>that fast draw is not sufficient for a broad sword
>(a katana is the largest item to be fast drawn)

>though a Monitor with the skill might be a bitch...
>(not that monitor isnt a bitch to begin with...)

  Perhaps these arguments would be more comprehensible with examples of
how and where the FastDraw would be helpful and/or unbalanced.

  At the very least, the Western Cosm needs to have a game mechanic which
allows for fastdraw dueling.  Dueling is an important part of solving
disputes between gentlemen of many historical periods:  the Eurpoean
satisfaction of honor, either sabres or duelling pistols, the Oriental
martial arts competitions in order to determine which style is better,
and I am sure that there are others.

  However, the choice of initiative is usually determined by the Drama
Deck, and within the Torg System one usually expects to be fighting with
others who also have battle reflexes.  The choice of Standard and Dramatic
Scenes stacks the initiative cards one way or the other.  I think that WEG
decided upon this mechanic so that the encounters would according to
literary (and cinematic) expectations.  It also insures that every encounter
is chancy beyond either the players' or the gm's control.


--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu (T. Erik Browne)
Subject: Re: Psionics and Magic
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 05:16:48 GMT

In article <BPOSTOW.92Apr12211521@barney.oberlin.edu> bpostow@barney.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow) writes:
>g'nuchshun [sorry about my german spelling, I just know how to say it]

Brian, what is that word supposed to be.  As you well know, I took four years
of that language, and I can't make heads or tails of what you are tryin to say.

>
>
>--
>Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
>reachable at:
>bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
>sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
>sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu
>
>Computer scientist do it backwards -- [Mathmatician's point of view]
>
>
>
>
>
>
And what is all of this space that is at the bottom of your posts?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T. Erik Browne                          | Harvey Mudd College
tbrowne@hmcvax.claremont.edu            | Claremont, CA  91711
tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu           | Best college west of Upland
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry.  No .sig today.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Did the FAQ list make it out?
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 03:48:44 GMT

Hmmm...haven't seen any comments about the FAQ list.  Did it make it
out ok and no one has anything to say/question/etc, or did my news-
server screw it up again?


-- 
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, Torg guru)
jogle@nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Z_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (BRANDON COPE)
Subject: shapeshifters 
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:20:19 GMT

Okay, I have a question that came about as someone finally decided to run a
werewolf:
		Is there, anywhere in the rules, mention made of a minimum
Spiritual and/or Magical Axiom level for shapeshifting?

There seems like there should be, but I can't find it. If there isn't one, what
would any of you be willing to suggest? It should cause a contradiction in the
Living Land, Nippon Tech, and possibly Core Earth, but I can see where 
shapeshifters would fit in Aysle, Orrorish (of course...), the Cyberpapacy, and
possibly the Nile Empire. Of course, in the Cyberpapacy, the ability to
shapeshift would suffer the same penalties as if the character had been
dabbling in witchcraft...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!  a generous and sadistic DM,  ! "Just a traveller, on an endless flight !
!	Brandon Cope		!  But no matter which way I turn, I      ! 
!-------------------------------!  	journey into the night;		  !
! a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu	!  Going round in circles, til the 	  !
! z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu	!	mountians fall,			  !
!-------------------------------!  To believe in so many truths,	  !
! "But ... but ..., it's NOT	!  Makes no sense at all,		  !
!  our fault!"			!  Makes no sense at all"	          !
!      Kei and/or Yuri		!	the Alan Parsons Project	  !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Theresa Verity / The Roguester <UWFGAMER@UWF.bitnet>
Subject:      Torg at 50% off!!!
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:34:06 GMT


A local store is unable to sell any of it's selection of TORG gaming
materials - you can benefit by purchasing it at the sale price of
50% off, NOW!!!

Call (904) 435-7222 or write:
The Labyrinth
10 Marshall Ln.
Pensacola, FL  32501...
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Pim <RICK@QUCDNEE.bitnet>
Subject: Re: Ideas for an adventure
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1992 18:46:00 GMT

> are Scott Galliand <$CSK605%LSUVM@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>

>         2) Statistics on the Allorizer gadget that Blackpool created.
  mentioned back in Infiniverse #1, i think. :-)

but (as always), i'd love to see this. hell, i'd still love to see
a writeup on anything even remotely complicated. (the allorizer, the
chekhov machine, the rocket ranger armour, you name it. :-)

rp
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Scott Galliand <$CSK605%LSUVM@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>
Subject:      Ideas for an adventure
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1992 16:55:48 GMT


I just started reading "Strange Tales of the Nile Empire" and was
intrigued by the first of the stories, Crocodilopolis.  I thought to
myself, What a great idea for an adventure, and I've decided to go ahead
and try to write something up.  I think such an adventure might prove to
be an interesting intro adventures for new players (I'm trying to start up
a whole new group for the game right now).
    What I'm looking for are a few things, actually.
         1) Ideas on what templates to use for the main characters beside
            Wu-Han (i.e. Angel, Omar, and Hosni Abdul), and
         2) Statistics on the Allorizer gadget that Blackpool created.
I hope I haven't spoiled anybody's future plans to read the story by
mentioning some of the things above.  I just wanted to see what ideas
you guys might have.

Also, in the issue of Advance Comics for June, a new Torg book on the
Nile Empire is coming out, called Mysterious Cairo.  Anybody know anything
about it, or other upcoming novels/short stories?   Any information is
appreciated.  Thanks.

Scott Galliand
$csk605 at lsuvm
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re:  How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 01:57:44 GMT

Mark C. writes:

> Now, it would be just silly to say that the CE Tech axiom was 'lower' in
> the areas I'm talking about. Surely what the tech axiom marks is the level
> to which technology (define it how you will) *can* be used, not the level
> to which it *is* used. You don't (unfortunately) see the machines cutting
> down the Amazon rainforests suddenly disconnecting becuase such technology
> has never been used there before: such objects are allowed anywhere on Core
> Earth. But that doesn't mean that any Core Earther can 'intuitively' use
> them.

That's true.  

> Now: Is 22 really CE's tech axiom? Which is to say, is that as far as we
> can go? Or are tech axioms increased by research (if so, ours has increased
> dramatically in the last century. Can other axioms be increased by research
> or experementation. 

Yes, axioms are increased through various means; research won't really
increase the Tech axiom though as it is only the scientists that
believe in the new technology.  But once something has made it out
into 'the real world' and enough people accept the new technology, the
axiom goes up in response.  (Until the axiom does go up, the new tech
is 'error-ridden', 'glitch-filled', or just malfunctions a lot.)

> I prefer to see things this way: the axioms measure the upper bounds of
> things. So CE's Social and Tech axioms have always been as high as they
> are; democracy ahs always been possible, but it takes time to develop.
> Conversely, the magic and spiritual axioms allow for moderately powerful
> spells and miracles, but most people do not belive in, or use, that
> knowledge. 

If that were the case then you could never develop a higher social or
tech axiom and the society would stagnate once you reached the upper
limits.  

> So the Living Land can *never* have magic, for example.

If you were able to convince a sizable portion of the Living Land
population of the existance of magic energies you would get magic in
the Living Land.

Axioms are all based on the beliefs of the people of that reality;
they are not set in stone and immovable, they flex with what people
believe in (Core Earthers believe in technology but not magic so the
tech axiom goes up while the magic axiom goes down, for example).

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re:  trick shots
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 02:50:00 GMT

Dave writes:

>i have developed a fast draw skill, which is NOT cosm specific
>(so Nippon samurai can "whip this out" as well

Bad idea.  Allowing anyone the ability to gain the initiative just by
buying a couple of skill adds is very overbalancing; making it available
to everyone no matter their cosm is even worse.  

I was under the impression your 'fast draw' stuff was going to be part of
gunslinging, not something seperate.  A skill that lets you alter the Drama
Deck is going a bit far without something like a World Law behind it.

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Re: MY VIEW: Cyberpapacy
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 23:54:07 GMT

tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu (T. Erik Browne) writes:

>Another solution would be to make the ritual something like what the Catholic
>church does with candles and holy water....

  This is sort of what I had in mind.  A ritual that would Sanction lots
of stuff all at once by a powerful cleric during a long ceremony.

  I am not familiar with the game mechanic surrounding miracles.  Do I
just say - Ritual: Requires a bishop and a congregation of 100 devoted
followers ... [add in your own embellishments here]

>I like the idea you've come up with for the Cyberpapacy, the only problem
>being the mechanic to get around the tech axiom.  But I have one question:
>how do you explain the origin of these circumstances?  Can the origin be
>explained with the meeting of Hachi Mara-Two and Malreax(sp?)?  It's your
>cosm, Dave, so what are your ideas?

  I have thought that the original cosm would have a prototype miracle,
which would consecrate holy objects, common enough so that holy articles
are taken for granted by the faithful as a fact of life.  This miracle
would have allowed things which otherwise would be impossible to work
and would sometimes be applied to tech slightly above the given axiom.

  After some time, the tech level of holy objects might be 2 or 3 levels
above the "official" tech level.  From here, your suggestion makes sense,
immediately preceding the "revelation" of Malreaux and the embracing
of alien technology.

  Some problems are that Magna Veritas no longer finds Malreaux so obnoxious,
as the original tech-hating beliefs no longer exist.  Instead I would play
it oppositely.  Most Magna Veritasini (sp?) would grumble that they are
not getting the new tech fast enough.

  I would also need a supplier for the higher tech gear.  The obvious
solution is Marketplace, but then their Tech axiom has to go up to 26.
This doesn't bother me so much, as I wouldn't mind running a computer
net in Nippon.  Of course, the Nipponese net would be very different
in flavor from a net which caters to the needs of the Cyberpapacy.

  Another problem with this version is that cybered characters would
now disconnect due to low Spirit axiom instead of low Tech axiom.
Hence, they might disconnect in Nippon Tech and probably everyplace else.
At least it limits cyberware use outside of Cyberpapacy.
--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: Re: Axiom mania!
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:40:37 GMT

[sean's "personal axioms" deleted]

i think we are getting abit compartmentalized here -
is everyone in the TORG-verse living in their own cosm?
(and if i had a "personal" tech of 24, why does it become 23
 when i leave CE? not to mention those bushmen (tech <15) who
 can become rocket scientists just by disconnecting to CE tech!)

Da Vinci was just possibility rated, and therefore was "ahead of his time"
he could make his contraptions fly, he didnt have any Prated test pilots!

the axioms are variable, and can go up (or down) with the populous.
if the entire planet turned to god to win the war, spirit soars,
conversly, everybody could lose faith, bringing it down.

tech is more "reliable" in CE - we think in terms of tech
Ayslish people think in terms of "laws of magic"
edinos belive in "Lanala's will"

dave "you are a product of your preconceptions" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rwt@stiatl.salestech.com (Roger Terrell)
Subject: Psionic "Energy Routing"
Keywords: TORG
Organization: Sales Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 20:01:56 GMT


I've created a character with the psionic power of "Energy Routing."  Aside
from grabbing energy from energy weapons, what else can you imagine this
being used for?  Do you think that the power could be used to wrench
energy out of electrical sockets, etc?

Also, how useful is this power vs. energy weapons?  If the "heroes" get
initiative, then there is no energy being fired at them just then.  If the
"villains" get initiative, then the character wont get to activate the
power until after already having been shot...

Roger
-- 
Roger Terrell
UUCP: ...!uupsi!stiatl!rwt
Internet: rwt@stiatl.salestech.com
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg