From: mst4298@rigel.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Applied Upyerstemmatey Corp
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:06:00 GMT

In article <schuck.715103984@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>Mitchell S Todd writes: > & >>> & >>>>>
>Bruce Schuck >> & >>>>

>It sure took you a long time to think up a reply Mitchell.

	Perhaps it's beacuse I was out of town for a week, Sherlock.


>>>>	Information such as communications and radar frequencies, 
>>>>	ADIZ authentication codes, radar range, and probably also
>>>>	radio range would be easily picked up by the Soviet version
>>>>	of national technical means, such as listening posts, those
>>>>	famous russian trawlers, and elint aircraft.

>>>Sure Mitchell. Thats why the Marines were ordered to change them all
>>>when they found out Oswald defected.

>>	If you want to find out the range of American radar systems,
>>	fly, say, a Bear bomber at the coast, and see when and where
>>	their air defense system challenges you.

>The Bear's flew over the pole Mitchell. They were challenged
>over Alaska or Canada or the North Pacific. The radar that picked
>them up was the Dew Line or the Pine Tree Line and wouldn't
>have told them anything about the West Coast Installations.
>Oswald could have.

	Not all of these Bear flights went over the pole.
	The Soviets flew ELINT missions towards the Pacific Northwest,
	flying rather south of the DEW and Pine Tree. Also, the Soviets
	flew similar missions near Japan and near the intra-european
	frontier. These flights would be picked up by air defense 
	radars of the type used by Oswald. Since all models of particular
	radar set type use the same frequencies, etc, picking out the range
	information of one gives you the range of all.	



>>>>	The radio call signs would be a bit more difficult. Listening
>>>>	posts would record the call signs, but it would take a little
>>>>	detective work, and some repeated listening, to place names
>>>>	with faces, as it were. 

>>>See above.

>>	Your "above" is nothing.

>So was your statement. Since when does radio allow you to place names
>with faces. Ha ha ha.

	I didn't mean "place names with faces" literally. However, it's
	not difficult to find out which squadrons are at which air
	bases. The squadron designations are usually printed at the
	main gate of the bases. Further, the flight lines of these
	bases are visible from outside the base, bases being cordoned
	off from the outside by chain-link fences. A camera and a
	telephoto lens would tip any would be spy off to the serial
	numbers and squadron markings of the aircraft on base. All that
	is left is to sit around watching the aircraft taking off and
	landing while listening to the radio chatter.

	In WWII, the Germans were quite good at identifying allied 
	aircraft by squadron. They made use of this information
	in their propaganda broadcast.


>If you are so sure that the USSR knew everything
>that Oswald knew *before* he defected, then why did the military
>bother keeping *anything a secret?

	The military knows that the Soviets will find things out
	eventually, but there's no reason to make it easy for them.
	The Soviets knew about the A12/SR71 long before the American 
	public did. Some things aren't secret at all. Occaisionally
	you'll see announcements in the weapons-trade press about
	some new missle or a modification to an existing weapon
	that will reveal things like the radar frequency, etc.


>The KGB weren't omnipotent. Listening posts are no substitution
>for the information Oswald had. Or do you really believe the West
>Coast of the US was so riddled with KGB agents that they already knew
>everthing?

	No, the KGB (actually, the GRU) wouldn't know *everything*
	(neither did Oswald), but they would spend every possible
	effort to find out what was important to them. They really
	wouldn't need an army of men to find this out. Further,
	the Soviets would have the opportunity to monitor quite a few
	military establishments by eyesight/photography to complement
	listening activities.	


>>>It was the *perfect* type of information to establish his credentials
>>>when he pretended to defect. It was *good* info for the Soviet
>>>Military without really compromising National Security.

>>	Actually, it wouldn't have established much in the way of
>>	credentials. The Soviets would know that anything Oswald
>>	told them would be already known, of little use, or of
>>	little damage to the US. A defector who spilled his guts
>>	about such information would do little to establish his
>>	credibility with the Soviets. 

>So, it's now Mitchell S Todd KGB Spymaster and expert on what the
>USSR wanted to find out during the Cold War. Excuse me while
>I snicker. [Snicker]

	Well, my father flew "spyplanes" for the USAF. Not SR71's
	or U2's, mind you, but the ones that flew day in and day out.
	Mostly EC/RC-135s out of Eilson AFB, and, in Vietnam, EC-47's. 
	I doubt that he knew everything about what information the
	US was trying to ferret out, but he seems to have known what
	the purpose of his missions were. Before his stint in the USAF,
	dad was a radar technician for Westinghouse. The man knows
	radars, how they are built, and how they are installed.
	Of course, he hasn't told me all he knows, but I've
	heard enough stories.
	
	Also, its simple to figure out what the Soviets would want 
	from knowing how radar works, knowing the history and theories
	of air warfare, and the history of Soviet spying in America.
	The most important thing to the Soviets was our cryptology 
	technology, high tech in general, and what we knew about them	
	(Walker's information, for instance, changed the direction
	of Soviet submarine design.)

	It's something of a laugh that Bruce snickers at me for being an
	armchair "KGB spymaster" while he indulges in the same pursuit
	himself.


>>>Thanks to his announcement in the US Embassy that he planned to
>>>pass such information on, the military could go ahead and change the
>>>codes and frequencies immediately instead of waiting until Oswalds
>>>defection could be found out through intelligence contacts.

>>	The US would have known of Oswald's defection fairly quickly
>>	and would have had enough warning to change call signs, etc,
>>	before any real harm could be done. The military wouldn't
>>	have to rely on Oswald's announcement to give them an excuse
>>	to change codes anyway.

>Let's look at the facts:

>When informed of Oswalds defection, the military changed *everthing*
>it could that they knew Oswald had information on.

	That's called a reasonable precaution. Most, if not all, of the
	stuff that was changed would have been eventually changed anyway.


>Oswald didn't have to walk into the US Embassy to defect.
>Nobody in the US or US Embassy knew of Oswalds existence in the
>USSR until Oswald walked into the Embassy.

	Not for a while, anyway. The Soviets generally announced
	defections, since they made good propaganda for the grist
	mill. Anyway, Oswald's behavior while trying to defect,
	including his suicide attempt, would have tipped off
	the US Embassy.
	

>Why do you insist that the military *wouldn't* have to rely on
>Oswald's announcement to change codes and radar frequencies?
>They *did* rely on Oswalds announcement, and if Oswald had not
>walked into the Embassy the military might *never* have found out
>about Oswald's defection. He did them a big favour.
>And he did them that favor because he was probably an ONI agent.


	Had Oswald been an ONI agent, they would have known when
	he defected, and thus when to change codes, without needing
	the benefit of a trip to the Embassy. If such an announcement
	would be a flagrant tip-off that Oswald was a spy, then why
	would ONI try it, knowing that the Soviets would figure it
	out immediately?
	
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