HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jimv@dadd.ti.com (Jim Vahsen, 997-3607, VAHZ)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron sele
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:55:17 GMT
Reply-To: jimv@dadd.ti.com
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.

In article 1dl0vlINNk9d@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU, mjb@mulka.ph.unimelb.edu.au (Michael Beeching) writes:
>	Very interesting discussion about forged clubs, but
>could someone please tell me what the RESULTS (I know about feel)
>are like, when a forged club is hit off centre, as opposed to
>other types of clubs! Is the only difference in the feel, or
>does the shot match the discomfort?

Good lord, talk about whipping a dead horse....  Future forged/cast msg's
should be kept to under 20 lines if at all possible, PLEASE...   8)

My background:  HAD Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blades
                HAVE Wilson Ultra's

Difference   :  If you hit them both dead center, they both send the ball
                on its merry way.  No "feel" differences...

                As you begin to move into the mis-hit realm of off center,
                the blades will not sound right, won't "feel" right, and the
                ball won't go very far.  (Kinda like hitting a 70mph fastball
                on a cold day with an aluminum bat, a loose grip, and no 
                batting glove...)
                The cast club/cavity back will still send the ball on its 
                way ok with a toe shot or even a heel shot, minus some yards. 

                Both clubs will put the ball OB or in the woods if your swing
                is bad equally well...       8)

My 2 cents.

---
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From: kwc@elden.cse.nau.edu (Ken Collier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron selection)
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:48:36 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ

In article <1992Nov5.024037.3156@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>In article <JEFFK.92Nov4104836@dosXX.med.utah.edu> jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:
>
>>I've hit forged clubs a few times, but never enough, 
>>nor well enough, to determine what "the feel" is.
>>
>>Would you forged fans care to describe it?

[...]

>>Also, does a forged CB feel anything like a
>>blade?
>
>I'd say that forged vs. cast is a minor factor.  Forged, high-carbon
>steel has more give than cast stainless steel, and as such imparts
>more backspin, but isn't nearly as significant in terms of feel as
>the clubhead design itself.
>
>Until recently, "cast" and "game-improvement" were virtually synonymous,
>as one could only forge a traditional style (for reasons beyond me).
>Modern metallurgy has apparently resulted in improvements to such
>techniques, and clubs like the Hogan Edge, and McGregor JNP exist as
>a result.
>

I was reading Tom Wishon's book "The Modern Guide to  Golf  Club-
making"  just last night and he addresses this question very well
in chapter 2.  What Michael Zimmer says  above  is  true  but  it
could  be  said  even more strongly.  Forged vs. Cast makes abso-
lutely no difference in the "feel" of the  club.   It  turns  out
that soft carbon steel lends itself to forging better than stain-
less steel while stainless steel flows better  for  casting  than
carbon steel.  So, most forged clubs are CS while most cast clubs
are SS.  Therefore, the material makes some  difference  in  club
softness  but  the  manufacturing  process does not.  So it would
seem that CS clubs would impart a different "feel" than SS  clubs
right?   Wrong.  Because of all of the other variables (ball con-
struction, shaft flex, etc.), the clubhead hardness only  affects
the  malleability  of the club not the way the club feels when it
strikes a ball.  This was confirmed in a blind study done in 1986
(I  think)  where  pros  hit balls alternating between forged and
cast clubs.  All with identical head  designs  and  shafts.   The
pros  were  consistently unable to "feel" any difference (I don't
have the reference for that research handy but if you  want  more
info. send me e-mail).

Clearly then, it is the clubhead design that plays the most  sig-
nificant  role  in  how the club "feels".  Cavity backed = larger
sweet spot therefore more forgiveness.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: d90gl@efd.lth.se (Gustaf Loefberg)
Subject: Masters Invitations 
Reply-To: d90gl@efd.lth.se (Gustaf Loefberg)
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:27:25 GMT

Does anyone know which European players get invited to The Masters?
The reason I'm asking is that I hope that Anders Forsbrand gets in
next year. He came fourth in the Order-of-Merit on the European Tour
and the three in front of him are direct qualified (Faldo, Langer and
Montgomerie).

Gustaf

Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: mcclure@grok22.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Steve McClure)
Subject: Re: Dr. Joel's magic club on Northern Exposure
Reply-To: Steve.McClure@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 01:09:59 GMT

In article <BxIpLI.1A8@ucunix.san.uc.edu>, zureick@ucunix.san.uc.edu (John H. Zureick) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov10.151313.4107@ncsu.edu> sgskaggs@eos.ncsu.edu (Steven G. Skaggs) writes:
|> >
|> >Did anyone catch Northern Exposure last night(Nov. 9)?  Joel was using
|> >some funky-looking club to improve his swing. He said it was invented by
|> >a dentist somewhere and it helped him find the perfect tempo or
|> >something.  He later claimed that he could now hit a 5 iron 200 yds.  Now
|> >I know this is a fictional TV show and the club is probably fictional as
|> >well, but does this invention exist?  If so, does anyone know any
|> >details?

I looked like one of those that you attach to your real club and it
measures the club head speed.  My crude imagination is a wieght on a
spring with an indicator to mark furthest travel toward the clubhead.  I
have never seen one of these, but seems like I have seen something like
this in catalogs.

|> >
|> >Steve
|> 
|> I didn't catch this but last week he carried a Golf Digest around the
|> entire episode.  I didn't catch which one it was but I think it was
|> a recent issue.  They also did a story on the guy who lost the Masters

I think it was october?  Steve Elkington was on the cover with the 3 
things for improving power, head, feet, hands or whatever.

|> on a short putt and gave up the game all together.  Joel kept trying
|> to talk him into getting back into golf.

Was that a real golfer or a "made up" name?

|> 
|> -- 
|> John H. Zureick					zureick@ucunix.san.uc.edu

-- 
Thanks,

Steve McClure		internet:	Steve.McClure@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
NCR MCPD Columbia 	uucp:		...!uunet!ncrlink!ncrcae!steve.mcclure
3325 Platt Springs Rd	Ma Bell:	(803) 796-9250
West Columbia, SC 29169
Disclaimer:	The above are my opinions and are not NCR official policy.
From: sgskaggs@eos.ncsu.edu (Steven G. Skaggs)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Dr. Joel's magic club on Northern Exposure
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:13:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Nov10.151313.4107
Organization: NCSU Project Eos


Did anyone catch Northern Exposure last night(Nov. 9)?  Joel was using
some funky-looking club to improve his swing. He said it was invented by
a dentist somewhere and it helped him find the perfect tempo or
something.  He later claimed that he could now hit a 5 iron 200 yds.  Now
I know this is a fictional TV show and the club is probably fictional as
well, but does this invention exist?  If so, does anyone know any
details?

Steve
From: pgk@pacersoft.com (Paul Kamp)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron selection)
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:17:06 GMT
Followup-To: rec.sport.golf
Organization: Pacer Software, Inc.

In article <JEFFK.92Nov4104836@dosXX.med.utah.edu>,
jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) wrote:
> I've hit forged clubs a few times, but never enough, 
> nor well enough, to determine what "the feel" is.
> 
> Would you forged fans care to describe it?

Until recently, I have played forged clubs all my life.  How does it feel? 
Well, when you hit a shot you actually feel where you hit it.  For example,
when you hit a shot out on the toe of the club you know it.  The feel of
the clubs is also a little softer.  I have always felt that the feedback
was quite important to understanding how I was playing and how I could
improve.

> Specifically, how does it differ from a good
> cast CB (e.g., Pings, Pinseekers, 845s, Links)?

My brother has a set of the original Pings that I have hit a number of
times.  When ever I have hit these clubs I have absolutely no clue whether
I have struck the ball well or not.  I do not like this lack of feedback.

Last year I bought a set of Callaways that I like alot.  They have a cavity
back.  They are cast not forged so they are a little harder but they do
provide excellent feedback on how I have hit a shot.


> Also, does a forged CB feel anything like a
> blade?

I have not tried these clubs but I would imagine that these clubs would
provide the best of both worlds.  These clubs include the MacGregor JNPs
and the Hogan Edge (& Edge GS) clubs.  These would be worth looking into.

Paul Kamp
Pacer Software, Inc.
Internet: pgk@pacersoft.com
AppleLink: PACER
From: john@illuvatar.duke.tip.edu (John Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Merrill-Lynch ShootOut
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:32:59 GMT
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@news.cs.duke.edu
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.

Did anyone else watch the Merrill-Lynch ShootOut last weekend ? I
really liked the format of this tournament, it was fun to watch, and
what a great golf course it was played on.  Also, did anyone see the
shot John Daly made ?
I forget which hole it was, but the players had to go over water twice.
 Everyone else took out irons for their tee shots, to lay up short of
the second water, but not John Daly, he took out his driver and drove
it 317 yards onto the green carrying both waters.  It was a totaly
awesome shot and he had a chance at eagle on a par 4!!!  He missed the
eagle putt, but the rest of the players gave him the birdie putt.



john.@illuvatar.duke.tip.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron selection)
From: rz64938@mystic.d50.lilly.com (David W. Crumbacher)
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:54:52 EST
Reply-To: rz64938@mystic.d50.lilly.com (David W. Crumbacher)
Distribution: world,local


In article <JEFFK.92Nov4104836@dosXX.med.utah.edu>, jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:
|>
|>I've hit forged clubs a few times, but never enough, 
|>nor well enough, to determine what "the feel" is.
|>
|>Would you forged fans care to describe it?
|>
|>Specifically, how does it differ from a good
|>cast CB (e.g., Pings, Pinseekers, 845s, Links)?
|>
|>Also, does a forged CB feel anything like a
|>blade?
|>
|>
|>Thanks in advance,
|>
|>jeff
|>

I have been playing forged blades for over 8 years and yes, there is a
difference.  It is true that forged clubs (blades especially) are more
difficult to hit than cast clubs (cavity backs particularly), but "the feel"
I get with my forged clubs is much greater.  When I say "feel" I mean the
accuracy and control I have with the ball, especially inside 150 yards.
With a cast club I just don't have the ability to work the ball to my
target like I can with my blades.  And when I hit the sweet spot there is
no better feeling than doing it with a forged club.

Now there is a middle ground one can take - forged cavity back clubs
(e.g. Hogan Edge, Palmer Standard).  These clubs give you a little of both
worlds but not the best of both worlds.

With practice a person can learn to hit forged blades, but it takes work.
Work that will definitely pay off, however.

Just my $0.02...

+--------------------------------------------------------------+---------+
| David W. Crumbacher            |  e-mail: dwc@lilly.com      |         |
| Scientific Information Systems |  Phone : (317) 276-5345     |    o    |
| Lilly Research Laboratories    |  FAX   : (317) 276-4127     |   (     |
| Eli Lilly and Company          |  These are my own opinions, |   [\.   |
| Indianapolis, Indiana 46285    |  not my employer's.         |         |
|            *** Please respond to dwc@lilly.com ***           |         |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+---------+
From: fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron selection)
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:28:29 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In <5796@naucse.cse.nau.edu> kwc@elden.cse.nau.edu (Ken Collier) writes:

>I was reading Tom Wishon's book "The Modern Guide to  Golf  Club-
>making"  just last night and he addresses this question very well
>in chapter 2.  What Michael Zimmer says  above  is  true  but  it
>could  be  said  even more strongly.  Forged vs. Cast makes abso-
>lutely no difference in the "feel" of the  club.   It  turns  out
>that soft carbon steel lends itself to forging better than stain-
>less steel while stainless steel flows better  for  casting  than
>carbon steel.  So, most forged clubs are CS while most cast clubs
>are SS.  Therefore, the material makes some  difference  in  club
>softness  but  the  manufacturing  process does not.

You've got some interesting findings. What then is the advantage of forging
over casting ? If the characteristics of the *resulting* forged and cast club-
heads are the same, why not make all clubheads under the casting process using
stainless steel ? Besides, casting is not only cheaper but more durable since
forged carbon steel is known to rust much more quickly than SS (if SS does
rust at all). I also have no doubt about the casting process creating a high-
quality clubhead - proof of which are the Accuforms and the Taylor-Mades.
Surely, there must be a reason, apart from manufacturing decisions, why forged
blades are still being made.


>seem that CS clubs would impart a different "feel" than SS  clubs
>right?   Wrong.  Because of all of the other variables (ball con-
>struction, shaft flex, etc.), the clubhead hardness only  affects
>the  malleability  of the club not the way the club feels when it
>strikes a ball.  This was confirmed in a blind study done in 1986
>(I  think)  where  pros  hit balls alternating between forged and
>cast clubs.  All with identical head  designs  and  shafts.   The
>pros  were  consistently unable to "feel" any difference (I don't
>have the reference for that research handy but if you  want  more
>info. send me e-mail).

Yes, I would agree it would be hard to tell the difference between a well-
struck shot using a forged blade and a cast cavity back. Hitting either in the
very sweet spot gives the objective feeling of "hitting nothing". However, 
subjectively I believe that the very subtle senses of the good golf player can 
differentiate the "feel" - just like auditioning high-end 
speakers. Objectively, they both sound very good. But when you listen longer 
and longer, you find one speaker more pleasing than the other.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf,misc.wanted,chi.wanted,misc.forsale
From: yhdw@quads.uchicago.edu (stephen t parker)
Subject: WANTED: PING IRONS #2,3,4,8,W
Reply-To: yhdw@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:02:29 GMT

I want to buy Karsten III PING irons #2,3,4,8,W.  I want black dot but will 
consider other colors.  If I cannont find K-III's, I will consider other
models.  If you have one or more of these clubs you want to
sell, please e-mail me at: s-parker@uchicago.edu.  Thanks
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Dr. Joel's magic club on Northern Exposure
Date: 11 Nov 92 12:41:26
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems
	<92315.152409JWHITE@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: winnie-the-pooh.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: JWHITE@MAINE.MAINE.EDU's message of 10 Nov 92 20:24:09 GMT

With Joel's swing (complete lack of weight shift), I doubt he could
hit that five iron more than 150yds, let alone 200yds.  He's all
talk...
--

                                Lee Hetherington
                                ilh@lcs.mit.edu
From: fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: The Feel of Forged (was: high end iron selection)
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:47:21 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In <JEFFK.92Nov4104836@dosXX.med.utah.edu> jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:

>I've hit forged clubs a few times, but never enough, 
>nor well enough, to determine what "the feel" is.

>Would you forged fans care to describe it?

>Specifically, how does it differ from a good
>cast CB (e.g., Pings, Pinseekers, 845s, Links)?

I started out as a cast cavity back user (Browning, Ping Karsten, and then 
Titleist DCI). At that time, I remember the "feel" was great everytime I hit
the sweet spot. My friends and I had similar subjective experiences and the
words we have come up to describe these are "effortless, pure, clean" and
"didn't feel like anything". I am sure most of you have experienced the same
at one time or another. However, shots hit off-center didn't feel as "pure"
but felt broadly the same whether hit off the toe or heel. It still felt 
acceptably comfortable (i.e. - no sting or shock or vibration).

One day I came along a set of cheap old Maxfli Australian forged blades. My
first time out on the range with them was disastrous. Apparently, I was not 
hitting the sweet spot so I was a victim to all sorts of stings and shock from
the off-center hits. But there were times I got lucky and hit the sweet spot
dead center. The feeling I got from it was enormously pleasant. It felt "pure"
like a cast-cavity back, but only "purer". Each time I got this "purer"
feeling I found myself cracking a smile. Then I remembered the slogan in those
Ben Hogan ads - "the satisfaction in golf is from the feel of a well struck
shot". You know how the Hogan ads always emphasize "feel" in their clubs - so
I thought at that point, I understood what they were talking about.

If there is any reason why forged clubs give a better feel than cast clubs,
IMO, it's because the softer carbon steel of forged clubs "cushions" the
ball at impact a fraction of a section longer. And the longer you feel the
"pure" sensation, the more you find it pleasant and think it is better.

Now this is a debatable issue - forged blades help you play better. Why ?
Because in search of the experiencing the "purer" feeling, you train yourself
to hit the sweet spot more often. And when you do, you get a satisfaction.
Man, this can be addicting! Anyway, I just described what is known as
"feedback". And all good players in all sports use feedback to help raise their
level a notch higher, right ?


>Also, does a forged CB feel anything like a
>blade?

From my experience, I have tried the Mizuno Grads, but they didn't feel quite
like my MP-9's. Same with the Ram FX with respect to the Tour Grinds, and
the Maxfli Tour Ltd. Forged WRT to the Australian blades. However, the blades
from other brands felt more similar than blades and forged CBs from the same 
brand. At this point, I started to wonder if forged CBs have their own distinct
feel.

>Thanks in advance,

>jeff
From: admiral@m-5.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Limprecht @Sun Micro Mt View. )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: high shots
Date: 6 Nov 1992 03:15:42 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: admiral@m-5.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: m-5

In article p00168@psilink.com, "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> () writes:
>>DATE:   Fri, 30 Oct 1992 14:37:11 GMT
>>FROM:   Charles Boncelet <boncelet@claude.eecs.umich.edu>
>>
>>
>>Jack Nicklaus hits his shots higher than most golfers, and I hear he
>>could play a little...
>>
>>	Charlie Boncelet
> 
>
>Reminds me of an old story about Arnold Palmer.  A spectator watching him
>practice asked him, "How do you make your 3-irons stop?"  and Palmer
>asked back, "How far do you hit your 3-iron?"  The guy says, "180 yards," to
>which Palmer responds, "Why do you want it to stop?"
>
>And one you probably HAVEN'T heard, reported by a friend who had gone to
>the BC Open about ten years ago.  Palmer had hit his second shot into
>a completely unplayable lie, buried under the lip of a bunker.  Out from
>the gallery ropes comes a 60-ish, grey-haired woman wearing a straw hat, 
>print dress and golf shoes, carrying a large purse and a golf umbrella,
>screaming, "Not my ARNIE!"  She races across the fairway, wades up 
>the bank of the sand trap, digs out his ball, drops into the trap, and
>speeds back into the crowd amidst massive cheering.  Palmer, unable to
>get the ball to stay put, gets to place the ball in the trap where
>it will.  Another routine sand save for Mr. Palmer.
>

I heard stories about Arnold Palmer fans standing behind the greens of
of Par 3 and using their bodies to stop his ball from overshooting
the green. This got to be so much the case that Arnie would just gun away
on the par 3's knowing he would never be long.

Mick
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf