HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: 4' 33" of what?
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:01:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: dscatl.46956
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <Bu2HoK.Mz@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
}The most interesting unit is temperature, though.  As someone pointed out
}here a while ago, 4' 33" is 273 seconds, and -273 degrees K is absolute zero.
}Which makes performances unattainable, by Nernst's law.
}
}In fact, if you apply information-theoretic notions of entropy, can't you
}convert the Chaitin-Kolmogorov complexity of a musical score to a
}temperature?  - I suspect that everything ever written would be down in the
}extreme cryonic range, though.  And if you use Hawking's ideas you could
}convert *that* to the area of an appropriate black hole, in which case 4' 33"
}becomes a piece of infinite size...

Someone is surely going to respond with something about the
Neilsen symphony subtitled "The Inextinguishable".

Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Mauricio Kagel
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:52:57 GMT

In article <16848@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> sami@charles.ucdavis.edu (Kari Kaarna) writes:
>
>I need to find a good source of information about the works and whereabouts
>of the Brazilian/German composer Mauricio Kagel. Any suggestions?

Argentinian, not Brazilian.


-Margaret

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Rob Brooks)
Subject: Re:Daniel Barenboim (was Re:Du Pre Recital)
Organization: Swarthmore College
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:50:45 GMT

In article <15SEP199211421234@portal.lasc.lockheed.com>,
le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025)) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Sep14.231206.18718@newshost.lanl.gov>, joelb@beta.lanl.gov (Joel R. Berendzen) writes...
> 
> >the Elgar with Danny "Shithead" Barenboim accompanying, and displaying all
> >his usual sensitivity.
> 
> I've always gotten the impression from his recordings that Barenboim was just
> an ok conductor and pianist.  But I could never tell that he was a shithead
> from his recordings.  What's the poop?  And why did he get to succeed Solti?
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
Agreed that Mr Barenboim is a respectable conductor and pianist.  In fact,
his Brahms second pno. conc. (cute, huh) is one of my favorites.  Just
thought I'd mention it.

I can't believe I started all of this.

Rob Brooks 

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Barenboim's Ring
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:38:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.155856.7714@rz-berlin.mpg.de> gray@rz-berlin.mpg.de writes:

>Jon Conrad (>) replies to Margaret Mikulska (>>):

>>>It must have been my subconsciousness, because I truly, truly cannot
>>>stand Barenboim.
 
>> On the basis of a lot (not all) of his conducting, I could see why.
>> But, Margaret, he's done some fabulous work as a song accompanist.

>(mischevious chuckles in background)

>  Did you get to hear this year's Ring from Bayreuth, conducted by
>said Barenboim; and if so, how do you think it compares with the
>well-known and recently-much-discussed-in-this-newsgroup recordings?

I didn't hear it this year, but I saw it in person at Bayreuth the year
it was new (1988).

It may well be that Barenboim's conducting of the RING has changed a lot
in the 4 years he's been doing it regularly every summer (I would hope
any conductor's conception of anything would season over such a time of
intensive immersion).  When it was new, I was in somewhat of a minority
in finding his work quite all right.  Not great -- it was slow without
the sinewy long-term strength of a Goodall or Furtwaengler, and was not
always helpful to the singers.  But I found it had some lyrical
strengths, and brought out the beauty of the orchestral writing more
than many conductors bother to.  "Could have been worse," was my
feeling, though I should add that some festivalgoers disagreed with me
on that.  Including a very vocal Speight Jenkins (director of Seattle
Opera, which does its own RING), who was offering his opinion to all and
sundry at intermissions.

>  I apologise if these performances were/are unheard in the States,
>but having enjoyed it so much, I am thinking of buying a recording.
>So if anyone heard this Ring, or was present in person, how does it
>measure up?  

It may well be that Barenboim's conception has matured into something
special.  I hope so, because....

>Did I just stumble on something magical that won't be
>available as a recording (boo)?  

Au contraire.  Barenboim's contract with Teldec is leading to a film of
the whole cycle (made this summer and last) AND a release on CD in the
near future.  I don't know if the latter will be "live" or a studio job
like the Boulez.  (Which does not stop some from offering the Boulez as
an example of the self-evident superiority of live recordings!!)

>Was the Barenboim merely OK and
>will I therefore be transported to even greater ecstasy by a good
>recording?  

Hard to judge.  It seems that Solti has not gotten through to you so
far, so maybe you're just not on a wavelength with him.  But I would
think you'd prefer one of the better recordings already out; for one
thing, you'd get a substantially better cast.  (Allowing for several
honorable exceptions chez Barenboim.)

>Did I like this year's Bayreuth because it was a gross
>travesty of how true Wagner should sound?

There, at least, I think you're safe.  :-)

Jon Alan Conrad
From: korkosz@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu (Richard Korkosz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Great pianist in recital
Date: 14 Sep 1992 18:48:32 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu

A most memorable piano recital was given yesterday by pianist Awadagin 
Pratt here at Krannert Center, Univ. of Illinois.  The program was based 
on the form of fugue, and consisted of 

	FRANCK: Prelude, Chorale, and Fugue
	BEETHOVEN: Sonata Op. 110
	BACH: Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue BWV903
	BRAHMS: Variations and fugue on a theme by Handel

That's some program, huh?  Mr. Pratt played these works with the requisite 
virtuosity but only to the service of very personal interpretations.  His 
tone, phrasing, balance, articulation, and clarity were all remarkable.  
 I haven't heard the fugue in Op. 110 done more convincingly (IMHO).  Each 
of the works was played with a freshness and conviction that brought me to 
the very core of this wonderful music.

Anyway, I thought some of you fellow rec.music.classical readers might 
enjoy hearing Mr. Pratt in recital, as I believe he is touring fairly 
extensively.  This 26 year old's music speaks for itself, but his official 
credentials include 1st prize in the 1992 Naumberg International Piano 
Competition, and performance degrees in piano, violin, and conducting from 
the Peabody Conservatory (he is the only student to ever receive 3 
performance degrees simultaneously from Peabody).  Hope you enjoy his 
playing half as much as I did!

Rick Korkosz
Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
korkosz@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Sibelius 2nd
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:28:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.202702.14760@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> saqx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>A poster recently raised the question of whether Blomstedt's new version
>of Sibelius's 2nd is worth it as a "thinking person's" Sibelius.  Well,
>I have four versions on CD, Bernstein with the VPO on DG (in a rare 
>moment of lunacy--I generally can't stand the sound of the VPO brass),
>Mehta with the NYPhil on Teldec, Jarvi with the Gothenburg SO on Bis,
>and now Blomstedt's entry.  I'm still looking for a version that *really*
>satisfies me.  I've also heard the Levi/Telarc recording, but don't own
>it.  Out of all these versions, I am most satisfied with the interpretation
>by Jarvi--he gets every ounce of juice out of that score, but the performance
>isn't the kind that I like.  The orchestra sounds too small, there are some
>misses in the brass, and the trumpets don't sound confident and majestic
>enough at the very end. 

I don't find the shortcomings of the Gothenberg SO as distressing as
you obviously do, in fact the Jarvi is my favourite. What you don't
mention is his very fast speed for the opening movement: faster than
any other version I've heard except for the 1930 recording by Kajanus
- as close to an "authorised version" as we'll ever hear.

One other point: when the Mackerras recording appeared a few years
back, some English critics started asking questions about the
difference in the tympani parts in the coda. Mackerras - like
Koussevitsky (both version) Collins and Schmidt-Isserstedt uses a
score in which the tymps echo the falling fourths of the theme at the
close. After some correspondence the following "facts" came to light
(I quote from memory and am prepared to be corrected)

a) Mackerras used the parts as they arrived in the studio - he didn't
realise that he was performing a "different" version. (Hmmmmm..)

b) Apparently the "thundering fourths" (as English correspondents
started to refer to them) were devised by Koussevitsky. The story goes
that Sibelius knew of this change and was so impressed that he wrote
to SK saying he would make the change in the next publication of the
score. This never seems to have occurred.

c) Anyone who's ever heard a version with this tymp part in always
finds the rather unimaginative straight rolls of the "authorised"
score rather dull. It's my only complaint about Jarvi...

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Help!  Suggestions needed for Violin/Organ music!
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 04:29:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.034730.28097@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> lungtt@gus19.ecn.purdue.edu (Terence T. Lung) writes:
>The subject heading says it all.
>I am a violinist and I have a bad itch to duo it out with an organ.

>I can only think of a handful of pieces though:
>(1) various Albinoni
>(2) selected movements from Vivaldi's Concertos for Two Orchestras
>(3) Vitali's Chaconne in G minor

>well that's it.  Does anyone know anymore?

Sure.  There are ca. 2 gazillion sonatas for violin and continuo from
the period 1680-1740, say.  A few of them are actually quite good.

Try Corelli, esp. Op. 1 and Op. 3 (12 sonatas each).  Opp. 2, 4, and 5
will do, too; but 1 and 3 are marked "sonate da chiesa", i.e., for church,
and therefore likely to have been done with organ.  Even if they weren't
originally done with organ, that's OK; likewise, you could try an
oboe or flute sonata you especially liked without hurting anything in
the authencitity department.  

Other composers to consider: Handel (his Op. 1 sonatas); Telemann; Bach.

Work on finding nice registrations that work with the violin sound and the 
space you're performing in.  Also consider inviting a cellist or viol
player to join you and play the bass line.

Enjoy!

Roger
>Thanks
>
>at loss for ideas,
>Terence
>
From: plcdib@bristol.ac.uk (C D I Bertram)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Rousseau
Date: 7 Sep 92 12:56:38 GMT
Organization: University of Bristol, England

Does anyone out there know if the opera Le Devin du Village
by Jean Jacques Rousseau has been recorded? Is it available
on CD?

Chris Bertram <C.Bertram@bristol.ac.uk>
.
:x
From: wchsieh@beethoven.lcs.mit.edu (Wilson Hsieh)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: obscure but good
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:14:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Sep15.201447.29293
Organization: lcs.mit.edu

In article <1992Sep15.160346.7840@walter.bellcore.com>, sse@wind.bellcore.com (Samuel S Epstein) writes:
|> 
|> This is an attempt to start a thread.
|> 
|> Some musical works are little-known but offer as much to the listener
|> as more popular works. Some of these pieces are by relatively obscure
|> composers.
|> 
|> What are your favorite musical sleepers? Can you recommend recordings?
-- 

I highly recommend the Chausson Piano Quartet; there is a recording
put out by Harmonica Mundi.  I just heard it for the first time last
week, and it is wonderful music!

 - Wilson
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: lmeissne@milton.u.washington.edu (Loren Meissner)
Subject: The Ghosts of Versailles
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:59:52 GMT

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@penge.osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Vaughan Williams (was Re: Sibelius 2nd)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: 13 Sep 92 14:40:16

diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:

   Deryk Barker (dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA) wrote:
   : 
   : The Sea Symphony is his first, the London Symphony is the second. I
   : can't say I hear any echoes of Elgar in the SS, rather echoes of the
   : British oratorio tradition (Stanford, Parry etc). 

   What about "Gerontius"?

I'd say both.

RVW wanted lessons from Elgar, but was told (by Alice, characteristically)
that E did not take pupils.  So he studied the Variations and Gerontius.
From his autobiography: "The results are obvious in the opening pages of
the finale of my _Sea Symphony_", and in another article he cited "Thou art
calling me", from Gerontius, as the phrase which influenced him most, in
both _Sea_ and _London_.
--
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Four more months!  Four more months!
From: Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: obscure but good
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:20:49 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Roberto Gerhard's Concerto for Orchestra, a brilliant contemporary piece! I
wait for it to be reissued on CD, I had 2 copies on LP, and sold the one which
was less scratchy!

Willem Pijper's Piano Concerto. I have it on a European Philips record with
Pijper's Six Adagios and Six Symphonic Epigrams. One of my favorite records!
(I've never listened to the other side ... ditto for the Gerhard album above).
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: knight@cray.com (Steve Knight)
Subject: Re: L'Incoronazione de Poppea
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 11 Sep 92 05:41:40 CDT

In article <9844@fs3.cam.nist.gov>, blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim_Blue_x3809) writes:
> A recent posting to the net recommended the Jacobs/Borst/Laurens/Larmore
> recording of Monteverdi's  L'Incoronazione de Poppea. I seem to
> remember, but cannot find, a recommendation of the Harnancourt
> recording. Did I just imagine that? Is the Harnancourt any good?

I can't speak for recordings, but given this thread about Poppea, I
though I'd shamelessly plug...er, I mean, pass on the following
information for the benefit of interested people who may happen to be
in Minneapolis-St. Paul at the time:

Ex Machina, a Twin-Cities-based ensemble commencing its seventh season
of producing baroque opera and early music-theater, will present an
historically staged production of L'Incoronazione de Poppea on October
3-5, at Scott Hall Auditorium on the University of Minnesota campus.

Other Ex Machina presentations this season include historically staged
productions of a seventeenth century Mexican Christmas pageant, of
Handel's "Acis and Galatea" (in combination with the Lyra Concert, a
local Baroque chamber orchestra), and of Tomas de Torrejon y Velasco's
"La Purpura de la Rosa" (the first opera written in the Americas).

Feel free to contact me if you'd like more information about the
production of Poppea in particular, the 1992-93 season, or the company
in general.

	Steve Knight
	uunet!cray!knight
	knight@cray.com
From: dmnhieu@riemann.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: looking for the following piece: weather report (?)
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:49:33 GMT
Reply-To: dmnhieu@riemann.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Organization: Purdue University

I remember sometimes ago I heard on the radio a piece for small group choral
music called the weather or weather report.  The content of the piece is ofcourse a report of today, tomorrow's weather...

I don't remember the exact name, nor the composer nor the performers.  Please
let me know if you know what I am talking about.  Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Subject: re: Sibelius 2nd
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 07:31:00 GMT

 Someone (sorry, lost the message) was asking about the 1960
Barbirolli `Readers Digest' recording - it was issued on a Chesky
cd (by itself) about 2 years ago. Don't know if it's still
available though.

 Neill Reid - inr@eccles.caltech.edu
From: bellmann@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Of Mice and Schenker
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:43:33 EST
Organization: Queensland University of Technology

   This semester I enrolled in MU315, the last of the technical subjects in
the BMus career. The subject matter is Schenkerian Analysis. I knew nothing
about it before the classes began, though I had been intrigued by some passing
comments made between Stephen Smoliar and Roger, if I'm not mistaken, stating
that Schenker believed that everything could be derived from Three Blind Mice.
Being unfamiliar with that children's song, I assumed it was some kind of
private joke. Well, it took only the first lecture to hear the same statement
from the lecturer.
   At this point I'm cursing my lack of vision to cancel my enrolment when I
still could. I cannot understand that IMHO seems to be such a truckload of
bullshit could be taken seriously by anyone. I've painfully crawled through
the first 180 pages from the Allen & Forte textbook and I've found the most
incredible collection of pretentious nonsense I could dream of. Besides, one
of the lectures illuminated the mystical side of Schenker and his doomed efforts
to link his 'analysis' to theology by means of having the major triad represent
the Holy Trinity. Another one brought about a discussion about the 'necessity'
of ending in the beginning tonality, which ended with his mentioning that by
Schenkerian standards, Mahler's music didn't work.
   The following week I decided to raise a point mentioned -half seriously,
I believe - by Roger Lustig to the effect of the feat achieved by Wagner in
Tristan und Isolde by going on for four hours without a single perfect authentic
cadence. In this way I ended up learning that Wagner was 'the typical composer
that didn't work, according to Schenker'. 
   Really, my capacity for astonishment is exceeded. But I'm getting to the
valuable idea that there must be at least one thing in common among the
composers I prefer, and that is that their music doesn't work in the Schenker
religion. Am I being too biased here? Can anyone offer some wisdom in the sense
of suggesting something of any value that could be learned from this matter?
All feedback is welcome.

Hector
From: beh@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bruce Howells)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re:wedding music
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:45:03 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Internet access via the Free Software Foundation


I was recently married (or wedded -- we'd been married since December, but
had a formal ceremony on August 1) and one of my friends from the
University of Michigan Music School helped me to pick all the music.  I of
course wanted to pick my own vocal music, and so.... it was fairly
traditional, sorry to disappoint you all.  I had "One Hand, One Heart" from
West Side Story, and Gounod's "Ave Maria" as well as the "Lord's Prayer"
(traditional) and in addition, and an art song by Roger Quilter "Fair House
of Joy" which was, needless to say, very romantic, and rather unusual
(well, you wouldn't expect me to be ALL normal, now would you).  For the
processionals and incidental music, we had the Barber "Adagio" in an organ
transcription, Purcell's "March in C" and his "March in D".  This is
embarassing, but I really cannot remember what we had as a recessional.. I
was just way too glad to have it over.

My suggestions for other wedding music?  I think the Phantom idea someone
threw out (That's all I ask of you) is great.  I also love the Schumann
song "Wiedmung".  I've sung Bach's "Ich folge dir" from the St. Matthew.
The Schubert "Ave Maria" is standard.  One of the most mushy and
old-fashioned yet truly interesting pieces I know of is "Oh Promise Me"
(which is from some obscure opera, and American La Boheme, I think). 

My $.02

--Nancy Howells
(beh@gnu.ai.mit.edu for just a little while longer)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., musical flops
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:49:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.192948.5437@linus.mitre.org> rwilmer@zinka.mitre.org (R. Wilmer) writes:

>Two unsuccessful shows that interest me are ``Carmelina'' by Burton
>Lane and ``Rex'' by Richard Rodgers.

Another good book to read about such shows (though it doesn't offer
information about how to arrange a production) is "Not Since Carrie: 40
Years of Musical Flops," by Ken Mandelbaum (he writes about theater
music for TheaterWeek magazine).

He arranges the shows he discusses in categories, the very last of which
is the ones which were, in fact, good enough to work, and some other
factor got in the way.  This is a relatively small number, and it
includes 1660 Pennsylvania Avenue (also the original Candide, and best
of all in his opinion, The Human Comedy and The Golden Apple).

>I saw ``Carmelina'' beautifully sung by Cesare Siepi and thought there
>was some fine music in it, but have never seen a score or recording.

Burton Lane, on the evidence of this, Finian's Rainbow, and On a Clear
Day, was one of the great writers of musical scores.  He's still alive,
and still writing; can't someone coax one more show out of him?

There WAS a recording, made after it closed (and not, alas, with Siepi,
who declined to return for the sessions, but rather Paul Sorvino).  It's
on one of those obscure labels like Original Cast Records.  I've seen
copies in used record stores; it's not that rare compared to some.  And
it does indeed have lovely music.

>``Rex'' had a good song that I have never been able to find.  I think
>it was sung by Anne Boleyn and titled ``Yesterday'' (though I may be
>confusing it with the Beatles).

There was a recording with the original cast.  If this doesn't contain
the song you remember, you are very likely thinking of "Pears of Anjou."
All the out-of-town reviews picked this out as the gem of the score, yet
it was cut before the NY opening.  I don't know how to find either the
printed music or a recording.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Haus Der Luge)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Stokowski
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 11:38:38 CST
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

 
I recently picked up, out of curiousity, Leopold Stokowski's orchestral 
arrangement of Debussy's "La Cathedrale Engloutie" (From the Piano 
Preludes for those who are not familair with it).  Overall, I'm not 
extremely happy with this version, but it definitely has its moments.
 
Could anybody recommend a superior version of this piece performed (as it 
was written) for the piano?  There are many versions available and I 
wonder if there might exist a 'definitive' interpretation.
 
Sincerely,
Haus Der Luge
 
PS:  I don't like Mozart.
 

;--- (Haus Der Luge) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8