HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gt1759c@prism.gatech.EDU (Don Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Fusion Output
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:49:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ulcer-Causing Institute of Technology/NE Student

In <1993Jan26.215619.22290@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> baylor@NEBULA.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:

>In article <81795@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt1759c@prism.gatech.EDU (Don Morris) writes:
>>in any circumstances. Period. Nada. No plutonium, no uranium, no lead, no
>>IRON for crissakes. Helium, yes. Deuterium, yes. Tritium, yes. Probably some

>Theoretically, couldn't you get as far as iron? I seem to remember
>(I'm a chemist, be kind!) from some college class or another that
>fusing smaller atoms into iron would produce more energy than
>it would have to consume, and that this is the heaviest element
>produced in stars BEFORE a supernova. (After a supernova, there
>is so much energy around, heavier elements can form). I don't 
>imagine an iron-fusion reactor would be practical, but as long
>as it liberates more energy than it consumes, it would be
>possible.

Theoretically (as I remember it...) it takes more energy than is released
for anything over oxygen. (The binding energy curve peaks about there, then
slopes back downward. Energy released in a fusion reaction can be thought of
as the difference between the two points on the curve, with energy produced
in the positive y direction. Hydrogen is fairly low, helium much higher 
(the slope in the beginning changes _very_ rapidly). )

I guess if someone wants to do the coloumbic equations and check how much
energy two nuclei of about half the mass of iron would have to have (KE,
that is) to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between the two I'll
have a chance to eat my words, since I don't feel like playing with it.

Donald Morris                         Box 24815 Ga. Tech Station
vapspze@prism.gatech.edu              Atlanta, GA 30332
====================================================================
"I want to live as an honest man, to get all I deserve and to give all I can.
	And to love a young woman, who I don't understand...."
		-Suzanne Vega, 'The Queen and the Soldier', _Suzanne_Vega_

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB
	    <C1Do4o.Kyz@world.std.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:39:51 GMT

On Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:38:47 GMT, tfish@world.std.com (Tex Fish) said:

T> 	One intersting thing to consider: are the two technologies
T> compatible?  If they are, then once the invading force takes over
T> production centers, they have a foothold and can work from there. 
T> Otherwise, they would have to either manufacture supply centers, or work
T> up some sort of interstellar supply chain, neither of which are especially
T> easy things to do.

	Why bother?  An interstellar troop carrier's *bound* to be
*huge*.  Just bring your factories with you; there's plenty of material
in orbit...

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
"Steve Galacci did a good treatment of a planetary invasion in his comic
 Albedo, issue #0 (The prototype issue)."

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: drac@uumeme.chi.il.us (Bruce Maynard)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: UUMEME Public Access Xenix
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 19:05:17 GMT

Seems to me that, in order to accomplish a successful planetary takeover,
one would first hammer down all detectable military capacity from orbit
(assuming, of course, that any orbital defenses had already been neutralized),
then inform the inhabitants that they had a choice: surrender & be cool about
it or be subjected to a generalized bombardment (probably nuclear). Note that
it would be quite desirabvle to present terms that the locals could probably
live with... elsewise, one *could* gain a rep for genocide, and become a target
by other spacefaring cultures. If handled well enuff, seems to me a takeover
could be accomplished (and *maybe* even held) with minimal troops... say,
between 1/2 mil & 2 mil...

All in all, tho, still a *very* expensive undertaking... in all senses of the term.

-- 
* The above are the meanderings of a demented soul. | drac@uumeme.chi.il.us
* Long live Dementia!  8-{)}                        | Bruce Maynard
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:56:52 GMT

No, No. What you do is broadcast a two-week long telethon to support
research for the elimination of Bajorion nose wrinkles.  Two weeks of
displaying the Nose_Wrinkle Child, introducing has been entertainers and
bombarding the senses, will put the Bajorians asleep.  Then is the time to
invade with minimal forces.

Conan the Libertarian

-- 
"If you can't love the Constitution, then at least hate the Government"

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: What would a Neutral Zone Look Like?
Keywords: Boundry,Four-Color Problem
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 03:23:39 GMT

rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) writes:

>While we are on the subject, what is the correspondent to the four color
>problem in a three dimensional space?  What is the minimal number of
>colors necessary and sufficient to uniquely mark three dimensional compact
>regions packed together in a 3-space.


In 3-space, it is possible to construct an arbitrarily large number of
mutually adjacent regions.  For example, consider a solid shape similar
to two railroad ties joined at right angles; from the top, it would look
something like this:


                       -- 
                      |  |
                      |  |
                      |  |
               ------------------
              |                  |
               ------------------
                      |  |
                      |  |
                      |  |
                       --

Now, an arbitrarily large number of these shapes (with sufficiently long
"arms") can be fit together diagonally such that each touches ALL of the
others.  Therefore, and infinite number of colors is needed in 3-space.


Paul Ciszek                      No nation was ever drunk when wine
                                 was cheap.
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu                            --Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Technical incompetence of governments
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:15:49 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
>  Until then we'll be stuck with a government run program and tell
>me one government that has managed to do that well.  (Remember Rolls-Royce?)
						       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually, the classic example of UK government incompetence is described in
'Slide Rule' by Nevil Shute.  In a rare example of government vs. corporate
development, the airships R100 and R101 were built by Vickers and the Air
Ministry respectively.  The government had been embarassed into funding
R100 in the first place, and didn't want to compound its humiliation by
building the inferior airship.  They threw what was, for the time, a 
scandalous amount of cash at the Ministry, while keeping the Vickers people
starved of resources.  We all know what happened to R101.  R100, which ran 
perfectly, was quietly disposed of.
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','
From: py1djf@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk (D J Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:39:42 GMT
Organization: School of Physics, University of Bath, UK


	Ah, but you don't necessarily have to take over a planet
	to remove it or even, control it.

	In Childhood's End (AC Clarke) pure fear and awe
	manages to transform the political colour of the 
	entire world.

	I imagine that it would not be too hard to get a 
	awe struck populace to work producing materials
	and equipments for a force if the 'occuping' force
	was the only interstellar contact that the Earth 
	(for example) had had. It may be possible to hide the
	existance of a war from us.

	As to the feasibilty of controlling a world politically,
	providing solutions to many of our problems, eg food, war
	(It would be easy to frighten any war mongers with attack
	from space), would probably lure the populase into a sense
	of security (as to real or false, read both Childhoods end and V )
	
	Dave Ford


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  // /||\/| | /^, /| ||	Dave Ford        ||	Come and play at	
\X/ /-||  | | \_7/-| ||py1djf@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk||rec.games.mornington.cresent
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mhorning@zeus.calpoly.edu (Mark E. Horning (Captain Neutrino))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Anybody? Anybody? Class?
Date: 28 Jan 93 09:36:08 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) states
>mhorning@zeus.calpoly.edu (Mark E. Horning (Captain Neutrino)):
>>>8) How feasible is David Brin's idea of using "refrigerator lasers" to cool
>>>objects in space? 
>
>>Freshman thermodynamics says it is imposable.
>
>I don't see why.  Pumping heat from a relatively cool ship into the
>sun shouldn't be more impossible than pumping heat from a cool
>room into a hot outdoors, in principle.  In practice, I'd hate to
>be the engineer on the job...

I fail to see how a lasercould transfer thermal energy, first the
thermal energy would have to be converted into some other type of energy
which can excite lasing. How are you going to generate power for the laser?
Wouldn't you need an eficiency greater than 1 to cool the ship
in this manner, or am I missing something vital?

>-----
>Dani Zweig
>dani@netcom.com
>
>   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
>    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"


Mark E. Horning, Physics 		Back off man, I'm a scientist.	
mhorning@pan.calpoly.edu		Bill Murray, Ghostbusters	
mhorning@data.acs.calpoly.edu
		A penny saved is a congessional oversite.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: tfish@world.std.com (Tex Fish)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:38:47 GMT

	One intersting thing to consider: are the two technologies
compatible?  If they are, then once the invading force takes over
production centers, they have a foothold and can work from there. 
Otherwise, they would have to either manufacture supply centers, or work
up some sort of interstellar supply chain, neither of which are especially
easy things to do.

-- 
					-tfish@world.std.com
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: 20000 decibel
Date: 27 Jan 93 08:20:53 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

wiml@stein.u.washington.edu (William Lewis) writes:

> I don't offhand know the rest mass of the Universe, but I wouldn't
> be surprised to learn that it's a bit smaller than that.

The number of particles in the Universe has been estimated at some 10^80, 
so, um, yeah.  That's an awful lot of energy.


Erik Max Francis  -)(-  ..!apple!uuwest!max  -)(-  max@west.darkside.com   __
USMail: 1070 Oakmont Dr. #1; San Jose, CA  95117  ICBM: 37 20 N 121 53 W  /  \
Like strategic games of interstellar conquest? . . . Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
-)(- Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt; all things that are, are lights. -)(-
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker)
Subject: What would a Neutral Zone Look Like?
Summary: Neutral Zones: What shape?
Keywords: Boundry,Four-Color Problem
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:01:32 GMT

We have heard of the Federation/Klingon Neutral Zone. What is its shape.
In the startrek movies I have seen it is spherical or ellipsoid. But if
that is the case, wouldn't it be possible to just go around it?

While we are on the subject, what is the correspondent to the four color
problem in a three dimensional space?  What is the minimal number of
colors necessary and sufficient to uniquely mark three dimensional compact
regions packed together in a 3-space.

Bob Kolker

-- 
"If you can't love the Constitution, then at least hate the Government"
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Industrial feudalism?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:26:12 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: concertina

>In article <1993Jan25.071010.22650@Princeton.EDU>
>
>>One important point about the _Mote_ empire is that while they had the
>>Alderson drive, which let them move faster than light between solar
>>systems, they did not have FTL communication.

Well, sort of.

Since they're local Alderson point was inside the photosphere of a red
(super?) giant star, they couldn't *use* their Alderson drive.  One reason
they referred to it as the "Crazy Eddie" drive.

The Langston Field that let humans hop in to visit Mote Prime was sort
of an oddball gadget, and the Moties hadn't stumbled on it.  But now
that they know it's possible...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: gt1759c@prism.gatech.EDU (Don Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Fusion Output
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:57:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ulcer-Causing Institute of Technology/NE Student

In <1993Jan25.201346.3762@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com (David Wetzel):
>>Would the "waste" products of Fusion be radioactive (theoretically)?

>Some are and some aren't.  For example, our heavy elements are the
>products (directly or via heavier radioactives) of fusion, and some
>of those are radioactive.  Radioactive plutonium and non-radioactive
>helium are both fusion products.

Survey says:
	BAMP!

Unless you're talking on a COSMIC level, here.... As far as Man-made fusion 
power plants, bombs, whatever - nothing higher than oxygen would EVER be made
in any circumstances. Period. Nada. No plutonium, no uranium, no lead, no
IRON for crissakes. Helium, yes. Deuterium, yes. Tritium, yes. Probably some
lithium. Anything higher than that and you're talking ridiculously _low_ 
probabilities. (After all, anything's possible in Quantum Mechanics.)

So in other words, very little of fusion products are radioactive, and as I said
in another post - the materials decay quickly. Safe after about 5-10 years of
sitting in a low-level waste facility.

Plutonium.... if only it were that easy..... :/

Donald Morris                         Box 24815 Ga. Tech Station
gt1759c@prism.gatech.edu              Atlanta, GA 30332
====================================================================
"I want to live as an honest man, to get all I deserve and to give all I can.
	And to love a young woman, who I don't understand...."
		-Suzanne Vega, 'The Queen and the Soldier', _Suzanne_Vega_
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:29:30 GMT

In article <MARTINC.93Jan23122100@grover.cs.unc.edu> martinc@grover.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
>Sun Tzu said something to the effect of the ultimate in conquest is when
>the conquered gives in to the conqueror without a battle.  Finding a way
>to bring a population to it knees on a planetwide basis sounds like a
>*big* job -- but what if you can convince them it is too risky to fight
>at all.
>Maybe we should have tried that on the Godless Evil Red Martians.

We did.  It worked, too.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: sl25@cus.cam.ac.uk (Steve Linton)
Subject: Re: Anybody? Anybody? Class?
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:26:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.004632.125219@zeus.calpoly.edu>, mhorning@zeus.calpoly.edu (Mark E. Horning (Captain Neutrino)) writes:
|> dayne@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller) states

|> >8) How feasible is David Brin's idea of using "refrigerator lasers" to cool
|> >objects in space? Is the idea dependant upon high-temperature superconductors
|> >(of heat, not necessarily electricity)? Or would any highly-efficient heat pump
|> >work?
|> Freshman thermodynamics says it is imposable.

a) I assume you meant impossible. It certaionly isn't imposable, Brin posed it.

b) I don't know what they taught you in Freshman thermoidynamics, but it IS
possible. Thermodynamically it works just like your fridge. You use a certain
amount of energy E to pump an amount E' from temperature T1 (cold) to temperature
T2 (hot). There is a rule, which I forget, relating E to E', T1 and T2. Thus your
system takes in thermal energy E' at temperature T1 and non-thermal energy E and
releases thermal energy  E+E' at temperature T2. 

In the Sundiver case the hot end is a laser beam, which is hotter than the sun,
while the cool end is the ship. The rather drastic difference in temperature
means E will be very big, much bigger than E'. The fact that the works of the
laser are inside the ship (unlike your fridge) mean that it has to be VERY
efficient as any energy it wastes goes into the ship and has to be pumped out.
From: gt1759c@prism.gatech.EDU (Don Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Fusion Output
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:18:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ulcer-Causing Institute of Technology/NE Student

In <1993Jan25.174731.28362@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> seanodon@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Aragorn) writes:

>In article <Dave_Wetzel-250193121541@dwetzel.mis.stratus.com> Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com (David Wetzel) writes:
>>Quick question:
>>Would the "waste" products of Fusion be radioactive (theoretically)?

>From what I understand, the by-products of nuclear fusion would not be
>very radioactive.  However, the container where the fusion occurs would
>be irradiated like you wouldn't believe.  And no, I'm not a nuclear
>engineer, so this may not be completely accurate.

It is true that the by-products of fusion (namely Helium 3, Helium 4, and
leftover Deuterium and Tritium) are not _very_ radioactive (Tritium is in the
first place). Much, much better than fission daughter products. It is also
true that the neutron bombardment and gamma capture in the containment would
make the vessel radioactive, however this effect will be minimized with the 
alloys being considered for vessel construction (low capture cross sections),
and that the decay constant would be quite high. In other words, the vessel
won't be much worse than present power reactor vessels when removed from 
operation, and the radiation will decay _much_ faster than it would in a 
fission-irradiated vessel. (Lower neutron energy in fusion produces less
captures, plus the isotopes formed by the materials planned on capture have
small half-lives).

In simpler terms, fusion is much cleaner than fission if you give everything
5 years to cool off. :)

[BTW - I'm a Senior NE major - just took a class on Fusion Engineering last
quarter....]

Donald Morris                         Box 24815 Ga. Tech Station
gt1759c@prism.gatech.edu              Atlanta, GA 30332
====================================================================
"I want to live as an honest man, to get all I deserve and to give all I can.
	And to love a young woman, who I don't understand...."
		-Suzanne Vega, 'The Queen and the Soldier', _Suzanne_Vega_
From: mhorning@zeus.calpoly.edu (Mark E. Horning (Captain Neutrino))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Range of Energy Weapons in space?
Date: 26 Jan 93 10:27:01 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis) states
>NETOPRBL@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Brian Lane) writes:
>
>> The two limitations on your hitting the other target would be:
>> 1) The range of the energy weapon. (let's assume its a 250MW Laser of some
>> sort of destructive magnitude)
>> How far could it fire and still do effective damage?
>> 2) The range of your fire control.
>> How far exactly could you pick up another ship through passive or active mean
>
>Passive detection of drive flames, for instance, would allow you to 
>pinpoint a ship anywhere in the solar system -- but that would only tell 
>you where they _were_ when that light was emitted.  Lightspeed delay 
>begins to become important.
>
>The range of a laser beam would be essentially infinite.  A laser beam 
>could still do damage (to a vulnerable target, naturally) across the 
>solar system -- but the problem if you have to land a hit, which is 
>nearly impossible when you've got huge lightspeed delays building up.
>
Don't they teach about difraction in freshman physics anymore?
1) Lasers are not perfectly parallel.
2)the beam spread is proportional to the aperture.
3)The first minumum of defraction angle X is given by

		sin X = 1.22 lamda/diamater


Mark E. Horning, Physics 		Back off man, I'm a scientist.	
mhorning@pan.calpoly.edu		Bill Murray, Ghostbusters	
mhorning@data.acs.calpoly.edu
		A penny saved is a congessional oversite.
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Invading planets
Date: 27 Jan 93 09:21:37 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

In article ... sdr57@cas.org () writes:

   Does it have to be stun beams? I seem to recall a story from long
   ago (The Sleeping Planet?) in which an alien invasion was preceded
   by the dispersal of a plant-based toxin which put the population
   asleep for an extended period. The dispersal was carried out with
   the cover of nuisance raids - the Terran Federation (or whatever)
   was at war with the aliens - and the sleeping population was held
   as hostages in an attempt to force a peace. 

   (BTW, for those who worry - the humans emerged victorious as a result
   of some individuals who were immune as a result of prior exposure to
   the planet - they worked with robots to convince the aliens that the
   planet was haunted - it was a better book than it sounds like.)

_Sleeping Planet_, by William Burkett (I think. I wonder if HP would mind if I
moved my SF collection into the office? Of course, I'd need a second cube...)

Yes, it's a good read. 

``Eyelids ... can be removed.''
--

Regards | "Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be
Kers.   | a violent psychopath who knows where you live." - John F. Woods
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.science:4259 rec.arts.sf.written:18285