From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: A mirror for Adrienne Regard's NO OTHER HUMAN...
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date:  2 Sep 92 22:57:19 GMT

In <1992Sep01.234125.29513@watson.ibm.com> Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com> writes:

>In  <nyikos.715380785@milo.math.scarolina.edu>  nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>> In <1992Aug30.072618.32178@watson.ibm.com> Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.co
>>
>> But the bottom line is, do we stake the life of a being who is already
>> quite possibly sentient on it, or do we give it the benefit of the doubt?

>Before 28 weeks, it's *not* possible. 

It is very possible.  Yes, I did not respond to your last post on the
subject of neuroscientists, but that was because I was waiting for a book
to arrive by interlibrary loan. It arrived yesterday.  The book is
_Fetal Electrocardiography and Electroencephalography_, By Richard Lee
Bernstine [Charles C. Thomas, Springfield IL, 1961]

He is, or was, a neuroscientist by all reasonable standards.  According
to my Merriam-Webster dictionary, the word "neuroscientist" only dates
back to 1963, after the above book was published.

Bernstine and Borkowski applied electrodes to the brains of embryos which
they dated at 43 days (also fetuses of various other gestational ages).
On p. 69 of the book, he writes:

	CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FETUS IN UTERO

 	  The determination of the state of consciousness of fetus
	in utero is an intriguing problem and one which receives
	speculation from time to time.  From the observations
	of the electroencephalograms of the fetus, it is possible
	to make general statements on this subject.  In the 
	author's recording from the brain of a forty-three to
	forty-five day old fetus "sleep spindles," not unlike
	that observed during sleep in adults, was observed.

What sorts of data does your neuroscientist have to back him up?

[Lexicographical trivia: the following appears in boldface in my
Merriam-Webster dictionary:
     electroencephalographically
Compare to:
     antidisestablishmentarianism
Only one letter less, and a much more useful word!]

>> >> She might want one, not realizing how dangerous it is.
>>
>> >Or, she might want to give birth, not realizing how even more dangerous it is.
>> >Better outlaw that, too.
>>
>> This is typical pro-abortion propaganda.

>You mean because I have facts and figures to back me up, while you have
>lies and unfounded opinions obtained from anti-abortion newsletters?
>Yes, typical.  :-)

I suppose the Alan Guttmacher Institute is your idea of a reliable source
of facts and figures?

>> Dangerousness depends very much upon the individual case.

>But *on average* an early-term abortion is 8 to 12 times safer than
>carrying to term.

As usual, you refer to mortality.  Like I said, I do not put off
having my hemorrhoids operated on because of the insignificant mortality
rate (still worse than carrying to term) but the fairly major 
complication rate.

Funny how you insist on using "safe" to apply to an operation one of 
whose major complications is cervical incompetence, which can inflate
the carrying-to-term mortality rate.

And another thing: "carrying to term" is a misnomer because that 
8 to 12 times bit includes C-sections, does it not?

Peter Ny.