From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Evil is a Four Letter Word here
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:43:22 GMT
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young

In <72281@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:

>9212.23 e.v. [Happy kAOs Day kiddies! >:|]

>[PUT ON YOUR FLAME-RETARDANT SUITS]

>Ladislas writes:

>I've tried to follow the thread about pentagrams and it made me wonder what
>exactly "evil" is, in the minds of the posters.

>Response:

[First sparks extingished]

>Ladislas:

>Most agree that christianity is "wrong" either because of the organizations
>that support it or by its philosophy.  Someone said that satanism (LaVey's)
>is better than xtianism because it uncovers the sacred lies (or some such).
>Some agree that "evil" is strictly a xtian concept.  On the symbolism of
>the inverted pentagram, some say it's a symbol that xtians identify with
>"evil".

>Response:

>The language is perverted and ignorant.  Those who invented the 'inverted
>pentagram' have one hand on your genitals and the other in your wallet.

I'd like to make myself clear at this point, since it seems Thyagi
misinterpreted my endeavors:
1) I'm not out to save any religion or moral concept.
2) I'm not interested in who's right or wrong.
3) I'm not trying to start a debate on other peoples convictions.
4) I'm not asking questions to better set people straight as to how they
   should define a concept.
5) I'm simply curious as to how people who practice magick deal with some
   concepts.

>A religious complex CANNOT be wrong.  Do some studying.

I didn't say it could be.  I merely wrote some of what I picked up in the
pentagram thread.  Whether I agree or disagree with such ideas is not
relevant to my questions.

>It makes about as much sense as saying that a farm can be funny.
>While the two are sometimes used together, that phrase is a particular
>which is quite ridiculous in association with agriculture.

>Ladislas:

>I have a few questions for those who followed the thread, those who commented
>and anyone else who might be interested in the concept:

>1) What is "evil"?  How can it be defined as a non-temporal concept?


>Response:

>Again, ask this in alt.evil.  They probably have a FAQ.

I don't want to know what the alt.evil subscribers think.  Else, I would have
posted this to alt.evil.

>I say it is 'that which I don't like'.  In other words, it is a subjectively
>defined evaluation of an object or event.  I've seen no logic in any
>arguments to the contrary.  Those who do support such arguments are
>uniformly on the side of disempowering the individual and sending society
>into ruin through dualistic polarization and political powerplays.

That's it!  That's the kind of answer I was looking for: your definition.
Now, if others will look at the questions and not try to interpret my motives
for asking them, I might receive other answers.

>THIS THREAD IS EVIL!!  KILL IT BEFORE IT GETS ANY OLDER!!!

>Ladislas:

>2) Since Good Ol' Jesus has become the scapegoat for some wackos' definition
>   of "christian thought/law", where is it mentioned that Jesus labelled some
>   act or thought "evil"?  (serious, documented responses only, please) 

>Response:

>Unless this somehow applies to magick, please leave religion out of this
>newsgroup.  I hope that others will shout at you if you continue this thread.
>Jesus was a cool dood.  Some people say that books are written about him.
>What he said is largely irrelevant in the context you are asking about,
>especially among a group of people who don't agree as to his authority.

If you are willing to consider the Jesus legend as an evolution in some form
of magick art, then it is relevant.  Some quotes that are attributed to the
man have something in common with Crowley's "Do what thou wilt...".  For
instance, someone said that commiting murder is against his Will since the
repercussions might lead to his untimely death.  "Do unto others..." says
basically the same thing.  This is simply a comparison between two quotes,
not a display of religious belief.

>Ladislas:

>3) How does A. Crowley define "evil" (if he does) and how (if he defines the
>   concept) does it relate to his "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of
>   the law" (please correct the phrase)?

>Response:

>I doubt he does.  If you wish to have this question seriously addressed
>then start another thread and begin discussing 'black magick' or
>'Crowley's ideas regarding sin'.

I should have specified "... in his teachings".  Your doubt that he does
answers the question though.  I'll not start a thread on 'black magick' since
the subject was discussed a while ago.  As to Crowley's ideas regarding sin,
that sounds interesting.  Reading his works should give me a pretty good
notion of that.

>                                   At least that would frame it in a
>way which is approachable by mages.  As it is you've lumped Crowley
>in here with religion and all you'll get are the quasi-Satanists and
>Crowleyites that don't know up from down.

It was not my intent to "lump" Crowley in with religion.

>Ladislas:

>I look forward to reading your answers and will post my own shortly.

>Response:

>Please do not post anything but a 'followups to' message.  I am doing my
>job here, as I see it, to keep this newsgroup clean.

Sorry.  I asked a question to the forum, I cannot expect others to answer if
I'm not willing to do the same.  If you do not wish to read my answers, you
know which key to press.  If you read my answers, you might better understand
what my views are and you might be inclined to ask questions about my views 
instead of interpreting them. 

>HOWEVER:

>I am not above error.

Noone is.

>If you really think that a discussion of 'evil' WITHOUT reference to
>magick is somehow relevant to alt.magick topics, I'm willing to hear
>why and how.  I think you'd better make it good.  You're likely to
>catch more heat from this thread than arises from my fingers and
>toes and I'll be happy to either join in or simply bypass the whole
>affair.  Toodles...

I'm not looking for a discussion, though everyone is free to discuss the
subject.  The reference is not to magick but to mages, or more to the point,
to how mages view the concept.  To some, the concept might be an absolute,
while others view it as relative to a stand point.  Some might say that the
concept is ridiculous.

>Thyagi the evil one

Ladislas.
Newsgroups: alt.magick