From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Here we go again! (l
X-To: MICHAL LEAH PERI
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 23:38:00 GMT

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes...
>Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:

>>Michal Peri writes:
>>MLP> So what.  The father has an obligation to his offspring whether or not
>>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>MLP> he agrees.
>>     ^^^^^^^^^^

>>Excuse me for budding in here, but this is *precisely* the sexist presumption
>>which we would like to change, and soon.
>Yes, I'm well aware of your intentions.  But I don't agree with them.

Nor do I agree with yours.


>>Indeed... It USED to be the case that "the mother has an obligation to her
>>offspring whether or not she agrees," which apparently you had a problem with,
>>but NOT with the father having a forced obligation.

>I have no problem whatsoever with "the mother has an obligation to her
>offspring whether or not she agrees", once the offspring has been born.
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Michal, you knew what I was talking about....  The *old* presumption was
that the mother has an obligation STARTING FROM CONCEPTION, as does the
father.  Now this no longer applies, for *women*, though not for men.


>Moreover, if the law changes again such that abortion is prohibited
>entirely, or prohibited after the Xth week, I would have no problem
>whatsoever with the statement "the mother has an obligation to her
>offspring once she allows the pregnancy to proceed past the point
>at which abortion ceases to be an option".

/*Sarcasm On */
Okay, let's make X equal to 0, and see if you now have a problem with
men and women being equally forced *from the moment of conception*.
/* Sarcasm Off */


>However, I am committed to securing a woman's right to abort a pregnancy
>until that pregnancy has progressed to the point where the foetus
>can be reasonably expected to live without heroic measures.

Yes, and I am committed to securing a man's right to abdicate parental
rights and responsibilities until that pregnancy has progressed to the
point where the foetus can be reasonably expected to live without heroic
measures.


>>MLP> >Now, just why should women be allowed to change their intent AFTER
>>MLP> >THE FACT and bill the man for the results?

>>he's saying that it's unfair for her to change her mind about having an
>>abortion by NOT having one, and then sending him the bill FOR EIGHTEEN YEARS!
>>Quite a bill, I'd say!

>Yes, that is unfair.  But far less unfair than allowing him to force her
>to have an abortion.

I never claimed this right...ever.


>As for allowing him to abandon a *born* child

I never claimed *this* right, either.  I only claim the right to declare
my intentions before the point of viability, and to not be held to her
decision.  This is the ONLY freedom which I am asking for, and it seems
to be too much to ask...


>I just don't consider that an option.  I believe that the principle of
>people providing for their children is one of the cornerstones of human
>civilization, and must not be relinquished.

Yes, and others think that the principle of people BEARING children *AND*
providing for them is also a cornerstone of civilisation.  Indeed, if they
are right, then you have already started us on the road to ruin... In other
words, Male Choice won't make things any worse than Female Choice.  Even so,
you seem to wish to relieve women of one, but not men, of the other.


>(I doubt you will convice
>me otherwise, although I invite you to keep trying.  I find our discussions
>most interesting.)

Nor do I doubt that you will convince *me* of anything, either.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

 * SLMR 2.1a * We've replaced the Dilithium with new Foldgers Crystals!
Xref: sparky alt.abortion.inequity:6164 alt.feminism:6484