HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Posted-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 02:21:56 EDT
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:21:56 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Canetti
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	If anyone is seeking something new, I'll mention Canetti again because
I found the work so special. He is best known for his one novel, _Auto-Da-Fe_,
but the autobiographical works I mentioned earlier I think are even better.
For those who like Kafka, a nice way to start Canetti is with his essay on
Kafia called "Kafka's Other Trial," which is about the _Letters to Felice_.
In his autobiography, and in an essay, he also discusses the impact Karl Kraus
had in the Vienna of his time, with his newspaper The Torch. The boy's relation
with his mother is remarkable and troubled, but the books have nothing but an
intelligent energy of life, not matter what the subject. This writer is on a
different plane altogether--some of you readers could go through all three
books in a weekend.
	I was interested to read a remark that some dense nonfiction can only
be understood if read quickly. This goes against both conventional wisdom and
my own experience,but I would be interested in hearing the theory behind that,
even though very many aspects of reading have been covered. Mike.
..
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:29:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Zen

Thanks for the response, Tim B.  Would anyone care to do a Kerouac reading, say
of *Big Sur*, and compare notes?  We could see if Hanif Kureishi's remark in
*The Buddha of Suburbia* (a lousy book, overall) that "The unkindest thing one
can do to Kerouac is to reread him at 38" is correct (I'm 39, you're ? . . .
we need not get hung up on the age thing, but I wonder if there may be a germ
of germaneness in Kureishi's remark . . .)

mbmcd
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:41:46 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

>you might ask whether they really are
>trivial, minor people.  Their loves and pursuits were as important to them as
>those of Wellington or Newton.

  Ah.  A very interesting point.  You might also ask whether the
loves and lives of Wellington or Newton are that important.  I
certainly have a difficult time imagining any of my colleagues
poring over Newton's correspondence.  The importance of Newton
is his math and his physics, not his love affairs.

  On the other hand, the lives and loves of a poet are probably
*more* important to understand than the lives and loves of a
physicist.  It has more direct consequences on their work.

  But perhaps I should ask - what is *really* gained from
the discoveries made in _Possession_?

  Anyhow, I think that two cases need be distinguished
here.  One is the study of a character as a "role model,"
and the other is the study of a character for ... how can
I describe this ... how the character traits inform some
other issue.

  One might, for example, study the personality of
Peter the Great in order to better understand his
historical impact, *or* one might study the personality
of Peter the Great in order to better understand
what is required to be a great autocrat.

  Studies of the lives and loves of Newton are almost
certainly the latter example, where the study of
Randolph Henry Ash is probably the former.

  But whether or not Ash deserves respect for being
an honest person is, perhaps, missing the point.

  What is it that drives a dozen odd scholars to
try to get inside Ash's head, and what possible
good does it do.  Why do they spend their lives
investigating Ash's honesty and integrity rather
than developing their own?  What do they really
hope to learn from this?

                        -Tim
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:59:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Trollope

The novel tradition was "fairly new" in the mid-nineteenth century?  Doesn't
a tradition at least 150-years old get to be called, at the very least,
tried and somewhat seasoned, rather than "fairly new"?

mmcdonald
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:10:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      re: new yorker

WHAT????!!!!!  elizabeth drew got the axe?  no!!!!!!!  she's one of my
favorites.  i was counting on her reports in the coming months.  who else
is to go?  if they change it, i'm cancelling my subscription.  and writing
angry letters.  damn s.i. newhouse (or however you spell his name) for
doing this.  first pantheon, now this.  what is this guy - crazy or something?

but, from what i've heard, they won't listen to us diehard new yorker fans.
circulation is down, all those advertisers are getting leery, and all the
lit & culture's got to go.  is there an alternative journal, where i can
get my new yorker fix?  what's granta and the paris review like?  i've got
time for one subscription.  reading time, that is.  i don't really want
the utne reader.

in the other hand, i won't miss some of the iowa workshop fiction.  that
crew had the new yorker corralled.  i got tired of those long minimalist
pieces.  10 pages devoted to how nothing changes, how we're locked in
our misery.  but, i got my first taste of kundera there.  and the marquez
serials were a delight.  and the mcphee.  and the louise erdrich.  and
and and and...i could go on and on...nina b. (bad on names this morning).
sergei dovlatov...doris lessing...but i could skip any and all updike.
easily.  jamaica kinkaid - annie john, i saw it there first and fell
in love with it.

the kundera was a special experience.  they were serializing _unbearable
lightness of being_.  it was the summer from hell, and suddenly, here was
a jewel to take me away.  i never could remember kundera's name, so i
lost track of the source of this wonderful story.  a year and a half later,
my boyfriend (who later became my husband) gave me a book as his first
gift to me.  i had never heard of it, but when i opened it up - there
they were - tomas and teresa and more people i'd missed.  what a gift!

naomi seeger
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Posted-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 10:47:36 EDT
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 10:47:36 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Lawrence
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	I too think "The Horse Dealer's Daughter" is a remarkable story. The
last time I taught it, though, my students (or maybe just one persistent
student) insisted that it was a story of a psychotic woman pulling a good
man down, and that no man would or should want to get involved with such a
woman.I wonder if my students had tried to experience some of the incredible
intensity of the drama that is compressed in the last page or two, or if they
had merely observed it detachedly, as something strange and vaguely threaten-
ing.
	I could understand this reaction better when I taught the story a
few years ago in which the two women wash the man's corpse (can't recall
title). They wouldn't even discuss it.  Michael McColl
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:25:00 EDT
From:         Jane L Hyde <EILDONS@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: speed

Yeah, I think you are responsible for starting what was/is a
very interesting discussion of ways of reading.  Oh well, the logging
camp was probably a great substitute!  -- jlh
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 17:11:00 EDT
From:         "Grace.E.Zarek@Williams.edu" <ZAREK@WILLIAMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Trollope

I for one just read _The Warden_ last semester.  But then I'm not a professor,
I'm a student at Skidmore University Without Walls, and an employee at Williams
College.

Students don't have a lot of time to read all the current stuff.  But I'm
making lists from what everyone has to say here!

Wouldn't mind hearing more on the the classics.  Maybe I'm not the only one who
hasn't read them all.

thanks.
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 12:34:06 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Nina Berberova

Thanks and thanks for posting Nina Berberova...
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:31:59 CDT
From:         John <S058990@UMRVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      literary

    Please send informatin on Literary group

Thankyou
John
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From: millie@gondor.math.columbia.edu (Millie Niss)
Subject: New Yorker and some new ideas for threads...
Organization: Mathematics Department, Columbia University
Followup-To: millie@math.columbia.edu
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 00:22:38 GMT
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X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


	Hello!  I have been reading this list for about six months
now, but I've never yet felt the need to post.  The New Yorker thread
is beginning to scare me...  When should I expect to see these changes
everyone keeps referring to?  I am too young to be a New Yorker
"old-timer," but I am a third-generation New Yorker reader...  Doesn't
this prove that the New Yorker is continuing to attract new readers?
Or am I atypical?
	I didn't particularly like the Chudnovsky profile (the two
mathematicians) but that was possibly because of my bias as a math
student at Columbia.  The article did show me how many _math
professors_ read the New Yorker, something which both pleased and
surprised me...  Anyway the prevailing view among my friends is that
the article failed to tell why the Chudnovskys are considered to be
good mathematicians.  (Computing digits of pi seems pretty pointless
and "undeep" to many math people, but the Chudnovskys have done other
things.) 
	I agree with the people who criticize the NY's choice of
fiction and praise their non-fiction.  I do like much of the poetry.
The New Yorker was the first place I read Milosz, for instance.
	Re: the Atlantic Monthly.  I just bought this month's Atlantic
and I'm thinking of subscribing.  It seems more political then the New
Yorker, but I haven't read it enough to know for sure.  Can anyone
tell me more about the differences between the Atlantic and the NY?

	Can newcomers propose new threads?  I have been (very slowly)
reading Browning's _The Ring and the Book_?  Does anyone have
comments?  I'd also be interested in discussing Yeats (plays or
poems), anything about 20th C. poetry (not writing it or the newest
poets but more a discussion of poems a lot of readers of this list
will have read), and Beowulf.  I just bought the Rebsamen translation
of Beowulf, which attempts to imitate the Anglo-Saxon prosody
(alliteration, stress, etc.).  I think it succeeds very well in some
parts, but I'd love to hear the opinion of someone who actually knows
something about Beowulf.  I have the original text, but I have not
been patient enough to learn to read it aloud yet.

Millie ("Yes, math people do read books, too.")

P.S.  I just bought _Posession_ because this list made me curious
about it.







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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:01:48 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Milorad Pavic'

On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:25:29 EDT Tim Johnson said:
>  I started Pavic''s novel _Landscape Painted with Tea_ this
>afternoon, and I'm finding it very difficult going - precisely
>because I'm am insufficiently familiar with Yugoslav culture.
>I read a lot of Russians, and am fairly familiar with Russian
>history and culture - so those novels present no problems for
>me.  However, this novel is filled with transliterated idiomatic
>expressions and apparent references to folklore which I simply
>don't get.  Oh, I mean, I can puzzle out the gross implications,
>but not the finer detail.
>
>  So, a few of the obscure figures of speech:
>
I don't claim familiarity with Serbo/Croatian/Slovene, etc., culture, but
some of your figures of speech seem to pertain to general Western culture,
rather than anything specifically Balkan.
>
>  "...at night he became so ravenous, eloquent, and hardworking
>   that the back of his belt turned moldy."
>
This might not be a folksaying at all--perhaps the character is chewing on his
belt!
>
>  "It was as though his right hand were more sinful than the left,
>   after all."
>
I take this to refer to either, "if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off",
or possibly, the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.
>
>  "Like the devil in church, he was at pains to recognize his
>   own text."
>
"The Devil can quote scripture to his own purpose," I rather think.
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:54:00 EDT
From:         MJOSEPH@ZODIAC.BITNET
Subject:      new yorker

Uh-uh, Timmy. Grumbling about the mouldy old gynophobes misses the crucial
issue. The New Yorker has for a long while stood as the serial approximate
to what Stanley Elkin once called, characterizing his novels, "a place for
language to happen."  When Mr Newhouse took over control, one felt, based
upon his track record in the publishing business, the opportunities of art
for art's sake were imperilled. The casual evacuation of Robert Gottlieb
is not reassuring. Tina Brown is unquestionably a brilliant and successful
But the aims of publishing are thoroughly incompatible if not antagonistic to
Tina Brown's lavish gifts and predilections seem to lie in advancing the claims
of publishing.

Nevertheless, one wishes her success in keeping the New Yorker afloat--I am a
sentimentalist enough to wish for that, at least--if not buoyant, and hopes
that she doesn't live up to our fears.


mjoseph
Rutgers U.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:25:29 -0500
From:         "MRGATE::\"A1::LEISUR42\""@MMC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: hello?

From:   NAME: Carole Leisure
        FUNC: Marketing and Development
        TEL: (615) 327-5940                   <LEISUR42@A1@MMC>
To:     NAME: VMSMail User IN%"LITERARY <IN%"LITERARY@UCF1VM.BITNET"@MRGATE>


Is "Love in the Time of Cholera" a new Marquez book?  I have been engrossed
in the technical book circuit for a while (much too long ;) ).

Carole
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:39:47 PDT
From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Changes at the New Yorker
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

UP> I, too, am worried about the impending changes at the New Yorker.


I am at the age where change of any sort worries me.  Why
can't the institutions remain forever as they were?

However.

Here we have the case of an inveterate staid weekly mag
always run by respected men being taken over by the only
female editor outside the women's mag circuit anyone can
name.

I like the style of the New Yorker.  I grew up with it.  I
love the conversational tone free of the notion snazzy
graphics are required to make text palatable.  It was
like a very prestigious insider journal, in that (and
this I never really understood from a marketing stand-
point) many nonfiction best sellers first saw print
in New Yorker.

But more than the tradition, the eminence, the noble
mission which was the New Yorker, there is a woman
who is at the helm.  Can we not celebrate that at
this late date?  And, is it just barely possible,
that fact is at the core of more than a few of the
reservations we see around us?

I see every day how the static comfortable world of
old men is jostled by change.  I feel the rumbles,
and hope to gawd I have the good sense to recognize
the dawn in all my lamentations about how it was
yesterday.

I only wish there were many more Tina Browns for us old
men to vex about.

-Timmie's House Of Mirrors!

--- Echodor 3.11
--
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UUCP: uunet!{comix|cruzio|scruz|gorn}!clovis!tcbowden
INTERNET: tcbowden@clovis.felton.ca.us
NERDNOSH LIST: nerdnosh-request@scruz.ucsc.EDU
POETRY WORKSHOP LIST: poet-request@scruz.ucsc.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:19:05 EDT
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From:         "Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD" <VIAEM105@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Graham Greene, modern poetry

From:    Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD
Millie-- I'm reading Alastair Fowler's _A History of English Literature_,
which has some interesting things to say about the cause of "wierdness" in
poetic diction. He says that the literariness of poetic language (including
all of the "making it strange" tecniques you mentioned, plus repetitions and
rythms and such) all began before the Norman Conquest, when stories and poems
were part of an oral tradition which needed these devices for memory's and for
the ear's sake. Then, when the Renaissance came along, poetic diction got even
"wierder" because Latinate word order and new French & Latin words came into
use. Shapiro, however, doesn't have to worry about all of that--except the
"make it new" part of the wierd factor. Has anyone read his geranium poems...I
can't remember what they're called, but they're delightful. He mourns his
dead geranium in one of them, and I remember it as being really funny.
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:19:58 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: the New Yorker
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Date:          Fri, 28 Aug 1992 07:53:04 EDT
> From:          Pauline Hodges --D65 x2701-- <PRH65@CAS.BITNET>

> By the way, you who haven't been reading it much lately:  there have been
> wonderful articles in the last few years, my favorite being the one about the
> two Russian brothers who have built their own supercomputer in their cramped
 NY
> apartment for the purpose of pursuing prime numbers.
>
Yes, I liked that a lot too.  Also, there was a heartbreaking but
fascinating story about a girl who was raised for virtually her whole
childhood, bound to her bed -- did you see that?  And then recently,
a terrific profile of the pianist Richard Goode.
                                                    --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:32:56 EDT
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Changes at the New Yorker
              26 Aug 1992 10:14:24 EDT from
              <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>

I, too, am worried about the impending changes at the New Yorker.
I've read a lot of good material about the changes in the CIS in that
magazine, as well as good fiction and excellent articles on books,
movies, and theater.  The thought that all that will be eradicated in
favor of the slickness of Vanity Fair upsets me.

Evelyn Duncan
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:28:50 EDT
From:         Lou Bona <bona@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
Subject:      hello - help
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

   Hello.
     My name is Lou Bona, I am a senior at Stockton State College in
  New Jersey. I, along with other students, am doing a research project
  on Internet and its resources. The purpose is to identify what is
  available on or thru Internet that the professors might find useful
  or interesting. My area of concern is the Arts and Humanities,
  specifically, literature.
     I am visiting several lists that seem to be related to literature
  to see if they are appropriate to include in the final resoure
  manual that we'll be putting together. As a result some of you reading
  this may see it more than once, for that I apologize. Anyway, I am
  requesting that as many people as possible who read this respond and
  let me know if they think the list they saw it on would be a good
  choice for inclusion in the manual. Also, if anyone knows of a resource
  on Internet that they think would be useful to a literature professor
  I would really appreciate hearing about it.

                 Thanks in advance,

                          Lou Bona
                              bona@pilot.njin.net
                          voice: (609) 926-1820
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 11:42:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Two-minute mini-survey!

Have you read _The Mind's I_, edited by Douglas Hofstadter and someone
else - Martin Gardner, I think; a collection of short stories and essays, with c
   ommentaries by the editors, on the nature of self vs. non-self, concious-
ness, self-awareness etc.
        Ian     z
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:46:57 EDT
From:         "ruth s. smith" <V2164A@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Brothers Karamazov

Our reading group has selected The Brothers Karamazov for its September selecti
on.  I must confess that I am having extreme difficulty with it.  It seems tota
lly inappropriate for today's life.  Can someone, please give me a good reason
to continue.  Fyodor is a complete buffoon and I cannot see why anyone would
give him credibility.  What was the purpose of the meeting at the monastery? It
seems to me that there would be other avenues to resolve family differences.  I
am still in the first 100 pages, but what is the significance of the elders bow
ing to Dimitri?  Reading this book makes me feel like I am crazy, the character
s are bizarre.

I envy Tim Johnson, how do you manage to find time to read 5 books in one week.
I consider myself lucky if I read one per week.
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