HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:58:38 MST
From:         Ed Ford <ATEDF@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      There is hope, Rick

from Ed Ford (920727:1100)

Rick Marken, Greg Williams, et al

Not all is lost concerning the lack of acceptance of PCT.  I think PCT
will (and in my case is) find acceptance from those who are struggling
to produce some positive results with the people with whom they work.
I am working with several organizations and lots of people who at first
haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about.  As they begin to
find success in turning their own lives around or in getting their
organization to function cooperatively and effectively, they begin to
respect the theoretical basis (PCT) upon which I'm basing my ideas for
helping them.  What I'm trying to say is that people have to first
succeed at what ever they are trying to do using your help or your
ideas as the basis for their success.  You have to go from the
practical success or practical examples to respect for the basis upon
which those practical ideas come from.  That's how I get another's
attention.  I'm working with a Catholic priest who runs a largely
volunteer organization called Andre House, which feeds in excess of 800
homeless every day besides providing clothing, shelter (for some), and
help in gaining skills and finding work.  I had him read Freedom From
Stress, then we worked on how people can work together while respecting
each other's internal worlds.  I talk about measurable goals and
controling variable perceptions and providing feedback and ways of
working with the staff and they with the homeless that would help every
one involved take more control of their internal worlds and the areas
for which they are responsible.  The staff hadn't the faintest idea
what I was talking about at first, but my practical suggestions seemed
to have made sense and they tried what I suggested cause it made sense.
As they began to succeed, respect for my ideas spills over to respect
for PCT, and for some, a desire to learn what the heck I'm talking
about.  I guess you have to go from practical success to respect for
the theoretical basis and then, for some, a curiosity as to what the
heck is PCT.

Ed Ford              ATEDF@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
10209 N. 56th St., Scottsdale, Arizona 85253            Ph.602 991-4860
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Mon, 20 Jul 1992 16:33:23 EDT
From:         mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Subject:      Conditional intuition

[Martin Taylor 920720 16:15]
(Rick Marken 920719.1300)

Earlier today I replied to Rick Marken's claim that his spreadsheet model
refuted my intuitive claim that there could be hidden positive feedback loops
in the hierarchy.  I now think I understand why he got his results, and have a
better feel for what is going on (Bill is right to warn against thinking one
can intuit what goes on in a hierarchic control system, and to argue for
modelling instead).

The example situation can be reduced from my earlier description.  Here's a
simpler one that is easier to understand.

There is an ECS called Y whose output affects something in the outer world
called B that provides a sensory input b, which Y controls as the percept y(b).
There is another ECS called Z whose loop goes through B and separately through
D. Z controls for the percept z(b+d).  Take B and D to represent gain functions
such that delta(b) = B delta (Oy + Oz) where Oy and Oz are the outputs of
the two ECSs, and delta(d) = D delta (Oz).

Even if the sign of D would lead to positive feedback, Z can be stable if the
sign of B is correct and B>D.  Z can move b more with a given output than it
moves d.  But if Y is acting, REGARDLESS OF THE DIRECTION IN WHICH Y TRIES
TO MOVE B, B becomes less susceptible to the actions of Z.  The algebraic
expressions get horribly complex, but we went through this a while back with
one of Rick's studies that showed it to happen.  So if the gain of Y is large
enough with respect to the gain of Z, then Z can go unstable.

It is the effective gain of Y as applied to B that is important in this, not
the direction in which Y moves B, cooperatively or in conflict with Z, just
as Rick says.  There can still be hidden positive feedback links in the
hierarchy, but they can become manifest only when some gain changes, not
just when some reference level shifts.

My Degree of Freedom argument (920701 0240) suggests that gains must be
changeable, even if it is only in the binary sense that some ECS turns off to
allow another to take control (please don't complain about the sloppy wording
here; good wording takes pages).  So the potential problem of masked positive
feedback still exists in the hierarchy.

Models Rule, OK!

Martin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Ameritec Corporation
X-Envelope-to: lstsrv-l@uga.bitnet
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Source-Info:  From (or Sender) name not authenticated.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:02:25 -0700
Reply-To:     "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" <cvisser@ucrmath.ucr.edu>
From:         dodeca!clyde@JARTHUR.CLAREMONT.EDU
Subject:      Electric Vehicle mailing list host.
Comments: To: lstsrv-l%uga.bitnet@JARTHUR.CLAREMONT.EDU

I'm looking for a volunteer to host a mailing list that I'm
attempting to establish.  The name of the list would be
ELECVEH and it would deal with all manner of things dealing
with electric vehicles.

crv
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:12:41 EST
From:         Hobart Braden <HRB@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Migration to 3390-3 DASD and VM/ESA

The systems manager here has announced plans to migrate our VM/XA
(CMS 5.6) 3380 DASD environment to 3390-3 DASD, and later to
VM/ESA (CMS level undetermined at this time).  Will either
of these changes cause problems for LISTSERV?  Are there software
or configuration changes that will be required or advisable?
Thank you in advance for any suggestions or pointers to
documentation, etc.
/Hobart Braden
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:21:20 IST
From:         RXHFUN@HAIFAUVM.BITNET
Comments: To: LSTSRV-L@SEARN.SUNET.SE

SEARCH RADIATION IN LSTSRV-L

Human Factors Unit
Institute of Information Processing and Decision Making
UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA
Haifa 31905 ISRAEL

TEL: +972-4-240546                     Fax. +972-4-240406
RXHFUN@HAIFAUVM.AC.IL
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:26:38 +0200
From:         Eric Thomas <ERIC@SEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Date/Time Stamp
              23 Jul 1992 15:05:42 EDT from "Forum on LISTSERV release 1.7"
              <LSTSRV-L@SEARN>

No, LISTSERV  always keeps  the original  date if it  is valid,  which is
particularly important  for peered lists  and when there  are bottlenecks
and messages arrive in random order.  The original dates let you find out
which message was actually sent first.

  Eric
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITnet%"LstSrv-L@UGA"
Original_cc:  Bob
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:22:00 EDT
From:         Robt A Brewster Jr - VAX Consultant - Boston College
              <BOB@BCVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Creating a private discussion group on LISTSERV...

Greetings,

My name is Bob Brewster, and I am a Computing Consultant for Boston College.
I have a couple faculty members here at Boston College who are interested in
setting up a private discussion on LISTSERV.  I have gone through the
documentation from Boston University (LISTSERV@BUACCA) and have come to the
conclusion that the only way to do this was to contact the LISTSERV
administrator at Boston University.  I retrieved the LISTSERV administrator's
name via the HELP command on LISTSERV at that site, and sent that person a
letter asking for help.  The reply was this:

    "While BUACCA is currently operating as a listserv backbone, we do this
    only to minimize the amount of mail that gets sent around the regional
    Nearnet network; overall, we encourage the use of software like vnews,
    rn, readnews and downplay the use of listserv. As a result, listserv
    "expertise" is fairly limited, and we definitely don't have the
    personnel to support private listserv discussion groups. (There are a
    few lists that live on BUACCA but they were started years ago, and
    existed before this policy.)"

Boston College is currently getting the hardware and software configured for
Usenet News, and it is not yet available to the user community here.  I also
asked this person to either send me some information or point me in the right
direction to finding the information on how users can set up their own private
discussion groups on LISTSERV.  The reply I got was:

    "If you've already looked at listserv help files, I don't think there's
    much else I can do for you. My staff is primarily working in Unix (Aix
    and SunOS), and we do very little work in the BITNET networking area.
    I've included here a list of the MEMO files that we received when we
    installed the last release of listserv; I'd be happy to mail any of
    these files to you if you think it would help you, but I wouldn't be
    very good at helping you interpret them."

If this is true that there is little support for LISTSERV at Boston
University, should I contact the administrator of another LISTSERV to set up
these discussions?  Any help you have to offer would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance for your efforts!

Sincerely,
-  Bob Brewster, VAX Consultant
   Info Processing Support, Gasson Hall 012
   Boston College
   Chestnut Hill MA  02167

Email:
   Internet:  Bob@BCVMS.BC.Edu
   BITnet:    Bob@BCVMS
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:55:07 EDT
From:         Jim Gerland - Network User Support <GERLAND@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: LSVDACC error
Comments: To: Jim Jones <JIMJ@JHUVM.BITNET>

On Tue, 21 Jul 92 13:20:52 EST you said:
>>21 Jul 1992 07:53:47 From GERLAND@UBVM: get eesti economic
>>21 Jul 1992 07:53:48 <LSVDACC> Disk N is not a fixed-ACCESS disk.
>
> Check the entry assciated with ESTII ECONOMIC in the BALT-L FILEID
> file.  It probably maps the file to a filemode of 'N' and there's
> no N-disk.
>
> PS - Now, if the file is *supposed* to be on a dynamically ACCESS'd
> minidisk, then the FILEID entry is probably wrong.  The filemode is
> probably "N" when is should be "N/201" where 201 is the CUU of the
> dynamic access disk as defined in LOCAL SYSVARS.

Thank you very much.  That indeed was the problem.  The FILIED had
... N5 when it should have had ... N5/401.  Thanks again.

Jim...
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"lstsrv-l@uga.uga.edu"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:41:00 CST
From:         Carlos Lemus <LEMUSCO@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU>
Subject:      Help for a new discussion list
Comments: To: lstsrv-l@uga.uga.edu

LSTSRV-L SUBSCRIBERS:

	I am running a discussion list for a group of students from Central
America who are studying in about ten universities in the United States.
I am running the list from University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, where I am
currently studying.  Since this university doesn't have a ListServer,
I am looking for a host that would let me run the list from its ListServer.
I'd appreciate any ideas.

	The list has been named, as our academic program, "CAMPUS-L" (Central
American Program for Undergraduate Students).  The program lasts two and
half years for each student.  Each year new students come to the U.S. to
the same universities or some others.  The program is administered by
LASPAU (Latin American Schoolarships Program for American Universities).
Currently, about 150 students from Central America belong to the program.
My estimate is that at least half of them will be interested in the list.

	Some of the universities participating in the program are connected
to Bitnet, while some others to Internet.

	I am not subscribed to LSTSRV-L, so please send any message to:
	lemusco@cnsvax.uwec.edu

Carlos Lemus
University of Wisconsin - Eau Claire
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Oklahoma State University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:46:46 CST
From:         Brent Stilley <UCCXBRS@OSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Register command

Can someone tell me where the REGISTER command is documented.  I'd never heard
of it until someone here had a problem using it.

Also, is there a way to remove a record from SIGNUP FILE without shutting
Listserv down (the user isn't subscribed to any lists)?

Brent Stilley,  Oklahoma State University, 113 Math Sciences, Stillwater, 74078
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:52:55 EDT
From:         "Duane D. Weaver" <WEAVER@OHSTVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      REmoving a peer from a peered list

What is the proper way to remove a peer from peered list?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:05:42 EDT
From:         Scott Hammer <SCOTH@WMVM1.CC.WM.EDU>
Subject:      Date/Time Stamp

As you may know, LISTSERV does not include all the "Received by:" lines
in the headers of messages when it logs them in the notebook for a list.
Because of this, the only date/time stamp is that provided by the sender's
MUA.  This date/time can differ significantly from the date/time at which
the message reaches the LISTSERV.

Is there anyway to have LISTSERV date/time stamp list traffic when it is
sent out?

-Scott Hammer
 College of William and Mary
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:46:49 EST
From:         "William J. Forde" <FORDE@POLYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Problems with Listserv

I have moved Listserv from Polygraf (VM/SP 5) to Polyvm (VM/HPO 5).  I have
two problems which may be related.

The first is that when I log onto Listserv it says it has 48 reader files.
Yet when i do a 'Q F LISTSERV' they are actually two reader files.  If
I reboot the machine and do a Checkpoint, the 46 files that were not there
before will appear.  The problem this causes is that Listserv will not
process any files unless i do an order on them.

The second is that when i have Listserv forward mail it seems to not
get where it suppose to.  When I file is transfer from someones elses reader
to Listserv the file number is changed.  I dont know if this is what is causing
the problem or not.

    _________________________________________________________________
    William J. Forde                Polytechnic University, NY
    VM Systems Manager              333 Jay St., Brooklyn,NY 11201
    Data Processing                 BITNET   : FORDE@POLYVM
                                    INTERNET : forde@vm.poly.edu
                                    VOICE    : (718) 260-3996
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:05:12 PDT
Comments:     Resent-From: RIEHL@USCVM
Comments:     Originally-From: Revised List Processor (1.7c)
              <LISTSERV@USCVM.BITNET>
From:         RIEHL@USCVM.BITNET
Subject:      Delivery error notice sent to LISTSERV
Comments: To: lstsrv-l@uga.BITNET, postmast@lluvm.BITNET

this morning I got 104 listserv messages like this one. they were all
mail rejection messages from lluvm to a plethora of network delete
messages.  these rejection messages all came back over the space of about
10 minutes (8:53-9:0?) this morning.

questions:
1. is there anything obvious here?  nothing has changed since the last
monthly updates.
2. should listserv be sending these delete jobs to mail?  it appears that
that is what it is doing.  what could cause this?
3. how should the network delete job transfer work?

jr
(john riehl)
(282 days, 4 classes, and counting)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
The enclosed  mail file, found in  the LISTSERV reader and  shown under the
spoolid 4227 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery
error notice for the following reason: mail  origin seems to be a mailer or
mail-daemon.

------------------------- Message in error (22 lines) -------------------------
Received: from LLUVM.BITNET by VM.USC.EDU (Mailer R2.08) with BSMTP id 9011;
 Fri, 31 Jul 92 09:00:43 PDT
Received: by LLUVM (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4565;
          Fri, 31 Jul 92 08:54:16 PST
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 08:53:30 PST
From: Network Mailer <MAILER@LLUVM>
Subject: Undelivered mail
To: LISTSERV@USCVM

Your mail was not delivered to some or all of its
intended recipients for the following reason(s):

Message syntax is unrecognizable.

--------------------RETURNED MAIL FILE--------------------
//Netwide_Delete JOB Echo=No,Reply-to=None,Prime=QUIETNO
// DIST2 FROM=LISTSERV@BITNIC I=Y FORW(CRC) HOST(190) TO LISTSERV LLUVM
//Via DD "BITNIC UMDD USCVM"
//CRC DD "1-FC8964BA"
//Data DD *,EOF,Res=Disk
//Netwide_Delete JOB Echo=No,Prime=QuietNo,Reply-To="SHAR@LAFAYACS"
// X-FOR SHAR@LAFAYACS SIGNOFF * FWDED=2 ( NETWIDE
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:57:05 EDT
From:         Jim Gerland - Network User Support <GERLAND@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject:      LSVDACC error

Can anyone explain what might be happening with the following error
that gets logged after LISTSERV receives a GET ESTII ECONOMIC BALT-L
request?

21 Jul 1992 07:53:47 From GERLAND@UBVM: get eesti economic
21 Jul 1992 07:53:48 <LSVDACC> Disk N is not a fixed-ACCESS disk.

Jim...
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 09:45:51 -0400
From:         RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Mystery Node

Someone attempted to sign on the the list PJML@UTXVM with the following
address:

MJS%A1@UTRC

LISTSERV apparently thinks this is a BITNET address, but a list of Node Ids
and error messages indicates it isn't.

Any ideas as to where this address is from, or how I could even contact this
person to let them know that LISTSERV is having trouble with their address?

Steve Carr
PJML Co-moderator
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 11:08:01 EDT
From: Peter M. Weiss <PMW1@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lstsrv-l
Subject: Re: Mystery Node

In article <LSTSRV-L%92072109455533@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET says:

>Someone attempted to sign on the the list PJML@UTXVM with the following
>address:

>MJS%A1@UTRC

>LISTSERV apparently thinks this is a BITNET address, but a list of Node Ids
>and error messages indicates it isn't.

>Any ideas as to where this address is from, or how I could even contact this
>person to let them know that LISTSERV is having trouble with their address?

A quick ckeck of the NIC.DDN.MIL WHOIS UTRC. -

SunOS UNIX (nic.ddn.mil) (ttys5)

NIC, SunOS Release 4.1.1 (NIC) #1:
@ whois utrc.
:No name: (UTRCGW)  UTRCGW.UTC.COM     192.65.177.2
University Twente (UTRCU1) UTRCU1.CIV.UTWENTE.NL      130.89.1.2

I also search Bitearn node and site keyword for any string 'utrc' -
no "hits".

/Pete
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: EDI & Artificial Intelligence (a quasi vindication)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 18:14:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

       The AI people are missing the point here.  AI as a hack to 
interface systems might be useful in some applications, but the real
application for AI in the EDI world is to handle simple negotiations.
The purchasing agent / sales rep interface requires more than just
the ability to send purchase orders.  That's why purchasing people
are on the phone all day.

       To do this, it will be necessary to handle transactions like the
following:

       "Can you sell us 1000 units of part XXX for delivery in 10 days?"
       "No, but we can deliver 200 in 5 days and 800 in 30 days."
       "We need at least 300 in 10 days, but we can wait 30 days for the
	other 700."
       "We don't have 300 in stock, but we can ship 200 XXXs now, and
	substitute 100 YYYs (the more expensive but compatible part)
	to get you 300 units in 10 days.  If you order all 1000 now,
	we won't charge you extra for the YYYs."
       "OK."

This sort of thing happens dozens of times a day in any big purchasing
shop.  With dumb EDI systems on both sides, transactions like this 
wouldn't happen, to the detriment of both parties.

       I suspect that once some suppliers have dumb, but real-time, EDI
systems that can quote price and delivery, smart purchasing systems
will be developed that shop around and try to put deals together.
Then suppliers will develop smarter systems to negotiate with them.
Over time, such systems will get better, be more integrated with
other systems within the business, and be allowed more autonomy
in their decision making.

       Now this is where AI can be of real value.  You want systems that
work to make it happen, not just ones that just report unsuccessful
transactions.

       					John Nagle
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Posted-From: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edi-l
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 08:20:47 -0400
From:         MacFarland.Hale@HECKLE.MITRE.ORG
Subject:      Re: Frequently asked questions (FAQ)
Comments: To: "Electronic Data Interchange Issues" <EDI-L@uccvma.ucop.edu>
              21 Jul 92 17:01:00 +0000. <9207211606.AA07626@mbunix.mitre.org>

Donal O'Mohony said:

> I would add something on activity in Europe e.g. the TEDIS programme,
> possibly under heading 1.

> A seperate heading on Open EDI
>  X.400, X.435
>  brief description
>  products/VANs (VARs??) that support it.

> Planned and Current Practices relating to Security in EDI

I want to "second" on all three of these topics.  I'm particularly interested
in the second ("Open EDI").  Security of EDI is also important to my company
due to our government work.  While I'd like to see Open EDI as a separate
section, I'm not sure if security should be separate or not.

When I saw Bill Laidley's first FAQ topics posting, I thought of suggesting
that a vendor list be added.  Then I thought again - it would be a maintenance
headache, skirts on the edge of improper use of this forum, and the information
is available through other sources I assume the FAQ file would point to anyway
(e.g., the EDI Yellow Pages).

HOWEVER, I think it's very appropriate for a list of vendors supporting OSI
protocols to be provided.  I think, at least in North America, this list is
still relatively small.  When "Open EDI" becomes common enough where this list
starts to get large, then the list could be removed from the file since at that
point either Open EDI really is common, or someone else should have constructed
such a list that the FAQ file could point to.

Still, we must be specific in the listings.  In the case of VANs, yes, I'd like
to know that they use X.400 gateways to the other VANs (since this helps me
determine if I can get X.400 end-to-end), but I also need to know if I can
CONNECT to the VAN via X.400.  Simply saying that VAN X "supports" X.400 is not
enough, since a large number of them do (with respect to their gateways).  In
the case of EDI translator products, we also need to be specific.  I recall
seeing at EDI '92 that one translator vendor had formed a partnership with a
VAN that carries X.400, and the translator vendor was saying that they "do
X.400."  However, after a few questions, I determined that they still CONNECTED
to the VAN via proprietary methods, and then the VAN turned the message into
X.400/X.435.  I need REAL X.400/X.435!!

'Nuff said...

	Mac

	MacFarland Hale			machale@mitre.org
	The MITRE Corporation		(617) 271-3703
	202 Burlington Road, MS K331	(617) 271-2352 FAX
	Bedford, MA  01730-1420
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU