From: tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller)
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Organization: AL/HRTI, Brooks AFB
	<1992Dec21.133608.24698@umbc3.umbc.edu>
	<1992Dec21.232115.21592@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:43:51 GMT


	I've been staying out of this one, but this caught me, and since
I've lived through this myself, I had to try to clear a few things up.

On Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:21:15 GMT, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) said:

M> Um, one does not study atheism intensely, not does one "practice"
M> atheism extensively.  This is why I later corrected you about
M> your treating atheism as a religion.  It isn't.  It's an
M> lack of belief due to lack of supporting evidence, 
M> not a belief that something doesn't exist.

	From: Webster's New World Dictionary of American English, Third
	      College Edition, Webster's New World, Cleveland, 1988.

a|the.ism (a'the iz'im) n. [MFr atheisme < Gr atheos, godless < a-,
without + theos, god: see THEO-] 1. the belief that there is no G-d, or
denial that G-d or gods exist  2. godlessness --a'|the.is'tic or
a'|the.is'ti.cal adj. --a'|the.is'ti.cal|ly adv.

a|the.ist (-ist') n. [MFr atheiste: see prec.] a person who believes
that there is no G-d.
	SYN. --an ATHEIST rejects all religious belief and denies
	the existence of G-d; an AGNOSTIC questions the existence 
	of G-d, heaven. etc. in the absence of material proof
	and in [sic] unwillingness to accept supernatural
	revelation; DEIST, a historical term, was applied to 18th
	century rationalists who believed in G-d as a creative,
	moving force but who otherwise rejected formal religion
	and its doctrines of revelation, divine authority, etc.;
	FREETHINKER, the current parallel term, similarly implies 
	rejection of the tenants and traditions of formal religion
	as incompatible with reason; UNBELIEVER is a more negative
	term, simply designating, without further qualification,
	one who does not accept any religios belief; INFIDEL is 
	applied to a person not believing in a certain religion
	or the prevailing religion --ANT. THEIST

	Given your description, Maddi, you're an agnostic at least;
perhaps you're a freethinker deep down, but only time will tell.

	I know a few athiests; they would refuse to accept a deity *even
in the face of incontrivertable proof* of that deity's existance.
That's what defines atheism, and why atheism is a faith as much as any
other. 

	Agnosticism is the true fence-sitter's spot.  If you would
accept my G-d if I could *prove* He exists, then you are an agnostic.

M> As to studying/practicing Judaism intensively, might I suggest
M> that this can apply to any religion, not just Judaism?  Thus it
M> isn't an argument for Judaism's rightness, merely proof that
M> it is successful at indoctrination, since other religions exist
M> with the same results for those who study/practice heavily,
M> and these religions have different conclusions that Judaism.

	Speaking personally, I studied and practiced Catholic
Christianity intesively through my younger years, and Taoism and Taoist
philosophy through my teens.  Neither held me.  Orthodox Judaism has
held me, holds me, and will continue to hold me; I love it.  So I would
say no, your suggestion doesn't hold.

  Someone said (sorry, I nuked the attribution):
  >I did not imply that atheism was a religion.  What did I mean by a 
  >weak argument.  Either the blind watchmaker or Pascal's wager strike
  >me as weak arguments I have often heard that "prove the bankruptcy of
  >atheism."

	I do mean to state that atheism is a religion.  But that's
neither here nor there.  I think the issue is that Maddi is
misunderstanding what is meant by atheism; this is a common confusion.
The true atheists I know would take pains to correct her misconceptions
as well.

M> This is true, but the central tenets of Judaism still do not
M> "feel right" to me, even in the Reform or Reconstructionist
M> branches.  As I have said repeatedly, these objections started
M> my journey of questioning.  

	Which makes you agnostic.  QED.

-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
"On to the next."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish