HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:11:12 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Dale Drake <DDRAKE@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

Roger:

While I agree that the tone of the above discussion is sometimes less than
uplifting, I also think that the entire "Lyme Disease/CFS/Fibromyalgia"
question is of sufficient interest to those of us who are being disabled
by *something* to continue the discussion.  I'm particularly interested in
the direction it seems to be heading now, differentiating between treating
the symptoms and treating the cause (i.e. finding a cure).  I've been
sittin' around here for three years now treating symptoms of CFS, and I'd
hate to think that the research toward a cure was derailed since some folks
who didn't have the disease decided that treating the symptoms was good
enough.  I'm sure the Lyme Disease folks feel the same (then again, maybe
we're all one big population).

I'm also finding the discussion of red-lining by insurance companies of
interest, since I'm sure we all fear the day that *our* insurance company
decides *we're* too expensive to maintain.  After all, CFS isn't
"self-limiting" either!

But I'd also second the request to explain the terminology.
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:52:25 -0500
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Kathryn Conway <conway@CS.UNC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl and symptoms

Re O'donnell's comments:
....Antifungals are what are used to fight yeast infections.  And I believe
that the "systemic yeast infection theory of CFS" has now long been
debunked. ....

Two points:

1-  My point about that the yeast is yes, antifungals are used to fight
yeast infections, but antibiotic use *promotes* the growth of yeast.  So even
if you're using both at the same time, you may still find yourself ending up
with yeast infections.

2-  My second point is not that systemic yeast infections cause CFS, but that
they can be yet another drag on the immune system.  I think it is an over-
generalization to say that spirochetes are the only things that can attach
one's immune system and make it deficient.

Regarding whether antibiotics help or hurt the immune system:  I guess it
depends on whether you're more into allopathic or homeopathic medicine.
My homeopath would use antibiotics only in urgent, life threatening situations
because he believes there are negative effects from the use of antibiotics,
and if there are more natural ways to help the body recover/heal  itself,
then these are preferable.

These differences of opinion represent very fundamental differences in
perspective.  I know from my own experience that not everyone shares my
perspective regarding naturopathic medicine.  Indeed, being a sceptic myself,
I have two doctors working with me on my CFS - one a naturopath and one an
M.D. who works with Paul Cheney in Charlotte.  From my own experience the
naturopath has diagnosed everything the M.D. did, and at about 1/5th the
cost.  Also, the naturopath has done much more to help me recover.  But I also
believe that I am fortunate enough to have found more than your garden variety
naturopath - one who specializes in chronic diseases, immune problems and viral
problems.  I would never suggest that just any naturopath could duplicate the
experience I've had with mine.

All of this to say that obviously we have different opinions on the matter of
antibiotics and I doubt that either of us will convince the other differently.
But I'm always open to information.

Kathryn Conway
conway@cs.unc.edu
Chapel Hill, N.C.
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:24:00 PST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Liz Heller <lizh@STARCONN.COM>
Subject:      Lyme disease discussion
              21 Dec 1992 09:41:59 EST <9212211443.AA25631@apple.com>

I really appreciated your postings.  I also would like Mr. O'Donnell and
Dr. Nye to stop the invective and stick to good will and plainly
understandable information.  I can sympathize with both of them, but for
everyone's peace of mind and health, they need to try to understand each
others' points of view.  Thank you for the excellent job you do
moderating this discussion group.  One of the reasons I like to read it
is because of the positive, loving attitude of the participants.

Best wishes,
Liz Heller
lizh@starconn.com
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:53:55 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         "ROGER A. GUILES" <RAGUILES@MAJOR.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Flagil and CFS
              24, 92 7:12 am

Roger,
Don't know if my previous message was posted on this board,
so I am repeating the essence. Treated for ear infection with
Ceclor, developed serious diarrhea and one-celled organism
overgrowth. Treated with Flagil, everything O.K. until next
CFIDS flare. My persistent problem was in the left ear which
endured three infections, lancings, and finally EMS surgery to
eliminate sebaceous cysts wrapped around the ear and containing
roughly 4 ounces of yucky stuff.
Adios,
Roger G. (raguiles@major.cs.mtu.edu)
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:33:57 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Roger Burns <BFU@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      how to find a doctor`

The following is re-posted from FIBROM-L:

== Forwarded Mail ==

Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:23:29 PST
              <FIBROM-L%UIUCVMD.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Andrea Frankel <andreaf@IGOR.RATIONAL.COM>
Subject:      how to find a doctor`
X-To:         fibrom-l@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu

I asked my doctor how someone would go about finding a doctor like him,
and he recommended the following (that he is listed in):

1992-1993 HOLISTIC HEALTH DIRECTORY

$5.95 each, order four and the fifth is free

send orders to:  Holistic Health Directory
                 342 Western Avenue
                 Brighton, MA 02135

or call 1-800-782-7006.

"Holistic Health Professionals:  You can be included in the 1993-1994 edition
to be published in June.  Call (617) 787-2005 for information on listings
and advertising opportunities.  Deadline:  March 1, 1993."


Andrea Frankel (andreaf@rational.com) -- Rational, Grass Valley Office
"Wake now!  Discover that you are the song that the morning brings..."
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 09:31:02 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl
              27 Dec 1992 07:49:37 GMT from <den40003@NUSUNIX1.N US.SG>

What are anaerobes?  I don't know WHY this dentist in Ireland was giving out
Flagyl, but I was not the only patient to receive it (My neighbors went to this
guy for similar toothaches).  I had never heard of it and thought it odd to tak
e two kinds of antibiotics (or whatever!) The dentist said something like "the
Flagyl works WITH the penicillin..."  Maybe he was a QUACK for all I know! I
didn't take the stuff right away because I was wary of it, actually. Instead I
brought it home with me to the states and when my tooth started bothering me on
 a weekend, (no dentist available), I unearthed this bottle of Flagyl from Irel
and and proceeded to take it.  I know this isn't "correct", patient behavior
but that's what happened nonetheless.  After the bottle was finished, in ten da
ys or so, my toothache had subsided (not completely) and my CFS/ME symptoms wer
e starting to fade.  This is the only point I can recall, where I "got better"
because of a treatment, specifically.  I'm only relaying what happened to me.
MAYBE it is just a coincidence!?   But, what are anaerobes?!  Beki

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
*                                             _\_      _|_           *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:00:36 +0100
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         GERARD VAN EYK <IVASEC@URC.TUE.NL>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

I am not so much against continuing the O'Donnell Nye discussion.
It demonstrates clearly how *truth* is negociated in practice.
It would be a denial af reality if we were closing our eyes
for this kind of processes. People make science. Or, scientists
are people. Gerard ivasec@urc.tue.nl
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:12:16 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         "ROGER A. GUILES" <RAGUILES@MAJOR.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Laughter a Rx for Health
              23, 92 4:45 am

I love to laugh as much as anyone. Ha! Ha! Maybe even more.

Since I've had CFDIDS for the past seven (or more years) there
are fewer things to laugh about. Do you think divorce is funny?
Do you think selectively attempting to persuade relatives that
you have a real disease is funny? Do you think trying to persuade
your boss that it's not all in your head is funny? Try it yourself!

Unless you have this disease, you can't imagine what it's like.
For me, gardening or carpentry are the closest ways I can get to
laughing about my disease. If the seed doesn't come up.. Ha! Ha!
Must be because you've been too sick to go out and water it. If the
board splits and you don't have the energy to go get another...Ha!
Ha! Must be because you can't handle the pressure of a lost cause.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a part-time post-graduate student going for
a second degree that has nothing to do with my first degree and
18 year career. Ha! Ha! I can't (honestly) do what I did before,
and so I'm hoping to try something else. If I succeed, that will be
something to laugh about.
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 13:43:00 PST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Liz Heller <lizh@STARCONN.COM>
Subject:      Flagyl and symptoms
              27 Dec 1992 17:59:08 PST <9212280211.AA11351@apple.com>

I have elevated Candida (yeast, fungus) antibodies. A curious thing happened
when I started taking antidepressants.  Ludiomil, which blocks uptake of
catecholamines, caused my Candida to flare up.  Prozac, which blocks uptake
of serotonin, caused my Candida symptoms to improve.  I should mention that I
had my blood levels of neurotransmitters tested, and they were abnormally low.
I've also found several other things that help: Diflucan, a systemic
antifungal; Probiotics by Nutrition Now of Portland Oregon, beneficial
bacteria; Brown Cow nonfat yogurt, with added cultures; and avoidance of
allergens (the allergens depress my immune system, perhaps leaving it more
vulnerable to the Candida).  I try to avoid antibiotics, though I had to
take some for cystitis about a year ago, but compensated for its ill effects
by taking extra beneficial bacteria both during the treatment and for about
a month afterwards.

Thanks for all the interesting messages - I am enjoying reading them!

Happy New Year!
Liz Heller
lizh@starconn.com
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 07:12:00 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         Roger Burns <BFU@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      Flagil and CFS

I took the liberty of asking Dr. Nye to comment on the first 2 postings
regarding Flagil.  His response is copied below.


Roger Burns      bfu@cu.nih.gov / bfu@nihcu.bitnet / fidonet 1:109/432
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion list
CFS-L  on LISTSERV at NIHLIST.BITNET or LIST.NIH.GOV
Newsgroup: alt.med.cfs

== Forwarded Mail ==

Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:28 CST
From: DAVID NYE <NYEDA@cnsvax.uwec.edu>
Subject: Flagil and CFS
To: BFU@NIHCU.BITNET


Thanks for sending me the posts concerning use of Flagil and CFS.  I'm
not aware of anything in the literature concerning this, but it is an
interesting lead and worth following up on.  Flagil is generally safe
and well-tolerated.  As you know, I've been trying Accutane in a few
patients for fibromyalgia with very encouraging results.  Chris Pinto
who posted the note in sci.med that first tipped me off to this probably
has CFS rather than fibromyalgia but I believe these two conditions are
closely related.  Anecdotal reports like these are one way important new
treatments are discovered.

Reply to BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>:

It would be worthwhile being further evaluated by a specialist in Lyme
disease, particularly if you didn't have an adequate course of
antibiotics.  There are tests to determine if you have active Lyme
disease, but the selection of the correct one depends on clinical
criteria.

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:42:00 PDT
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         GLADSTONE@CSMCMVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Flagyl

        I thought Flagyl was an antiprotoal.  If it is, what good is it
as an adjunct to penicillin for a toothache or Lyme disease ?
If not, please disreguard this question.

Just Say HO
Joe Gladstone>   <GLADSTONE@CSMCMVAX.BITNET>  whoops protozoal sp?
Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
From: den40003@nusunix1.nus.sg (GOH SZE CHERN)
Subject: Flagyl
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 07:49:37 GMT

 thought Flagyl (metronidazole) was used as an effective antibiotic
against anaerobes, guys.

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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 13:09:13 LCL
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         John Setel O'Donnell <jod@EQUATOR.COM>
Subject:      Re: Flagyl and Immune Modulation
              Sat, 2 Jan 1993 19:14:23 GMT

      I was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease (an IBD -- "Inflammatory Bowel
    Disease") ...

      Other possibility: I may have had a spirochete -- one that I
    wouldn't have been tested for in the hospital -- and it may be that
    Flagyl works like this: Flagyl ==> kills spirochete ==> spirochete
    stops its immunological mischief ==> inflammation subsides.
      I discussed this possibility w/my doctors, and they said it was
    highly unlikely.

Other doctors would find your assessment a reasonable one.
Dr. Paul Duray has reported that on autopsy, some of the highest Lyme
spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) concentrations are found in the
tissues of the bladder, lung, bowel, and heart.  Lyme is known to
cause irritable bowel symptoms clinicially indistinguishable from
Crohn's (see the symptom list by Dr. Burrasacano I posted a while
ago).
-------
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:13:53 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Laughter a Rx for Health
              23 Dec 1992 04:45:50 GMT from <aa328@FREENET.CARLE TON.CA>

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I completely agree with you
and I am a CFIDS SURVIVOR who believed this philosophy almost from the beginnin
g.  Alright, I got really down at first and went through all the (normal?) set-
backs, emotional, financial, etc. that come with this illness. But one day it
dawned on me that I had to be positive in order to get better.  I had to laugh
or cry. Make a choice- is it more fun to laugh or to cry? so I did a lot of bot
h and amazingly many of my symptoms either became easier to accept or diminishe
d in severity. I know it's easy to look back and say this but I really made a c
onscious effort to GET HAPPY.  My life had fallen apart, my body,too...my caree
r, but I STILL have to get up and live with myself EVERYDAY.  I was getting rea
lly sick of myself but what are you going to do?!  Dwell on the part of you tha
t remains YOU!  Nothing can take THAT away!
                      Keep Laughing! Happy Holidays!
                                                 The Beckster

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*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
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Newsgroups: alt.med.cfs
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1992 10:53:07 EST
              <CFS-L@NIHLIST.BITNET>
From:         BEKI BRINDLE-DEMYER <RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lyme disease discussion

     This connection just dawned on me a few days ago and I have no idea why I
didn't put it together at the time.  Before starting the FLAGIL for the unrelat
ed tooth, I had been diagnosed with Epstein Barr Virus and the ratio was 1:5200
 I don't know HOW bad that is, because no one ever explained THAT either. ALL I
 know is that NORMAL is 1:10 for someone who has had the virus at some point in
 the past 35 years or so. I DO know that it is a ratio of virus cells to antibo
dies.
   Anyway, I recall reading a couple years ago that some CFS sufferers were bei
ng treated for paricides or the like(?) and getting well.  FLAGIL is, I think,
an anti-bacterial(?) type of antibiotic.  I don't know enough about MEDICINE to
even make the previous statement so maybe someone else could jump in and explai
n.  Is it possible that we are sick from drinking paracidic water? I lived in t
he mountains when I got sick and WHO KNOWS WHAT LURKS THERE! Merry X-MAS!

**********************************************************************
*Beki Brindle-DeMyer                                         /       *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.BITNET                                    /        *
*RLBRINDL@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU             \ .. /             /         *
*                                         ><   -----------/          *
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Newsgroups: alt.archery
From: tang@akofin.enet.dec.com (Gabe Tang)
Subject: Re: Feather Fletch question
Organization: the vms company
Date: 28 DEC 92 00:51:04 EST


re: (Michael J. Edelman) .....
>..........I read in Jim Chinn's
>"Winds of Change" that he recommends putting a cock feather at 12 o'clock,
>with the other feathers at 4 and 8. Another author recommends the traditional
>9, 1 and 5, but says to ignore orientation- it doesn't matter.

Mike,

	I would tend to think that offset and helical twist might have
	something to do with the differing lines of thought. Feathers are
	pretty forgiving, but you will notice wearing on those feathers
	that brush by the riser/rest/button/shelf more than the cock 
	feather. I suppose what you'd ideally want is equal wear on the 
	other 2, rather than more on just 1 of the 2. If either of the 
	above mentioned authors were recommending differing offsets, then 
	I'd guess that's why they differ on where to place the cock feather.
From: thanos@hardy.u.washington.edu (Aniruddha Gadre)
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: test... sorry
Date: 31 Dec 1992 09:09:27 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: world
Reply-To: thanos@u.washington.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

This is a test. This is only a test. Do not be alarmed. It's only a test!
:wq
From: CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Re-fletching question
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 15:59:12 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamvm1.tamu.edu

In article <1992Dec29.102519.23558@hemlock.cray.com>
mlo@cray.com (Mick Oyer) writes:
 
>Well, I got a compound bow for Xmas - A Bear Whitetail II.
>I'm really a novice at this, having just shot the bow for the first
>time yesterday.
 
.....practice, practice, practice.....    ;-)
 
 
>My brainstorm for a target setup was to use a mound of
>straw bales, with a 4x4 piece of 5/8" sheetrock at the front.
>Worked fairly well, but I shot a couple of arrows into a section
>of the sheetrock that didn't have straw backing,
 
You ought to goto your local archery store and get what's called
a PRO-STOP bag.  It's basically a bag filled with some synthetic
fibers that really stop arrows good.  And pulling those arrows out
is like cutting butter with a\hot knife.
 
BTW: how well do pro-stop bags work with carbon arrows?  I'm pretty
much convinced myself that I am going to go to carbon arrows, and
would like to know what kind of target backing you (the generic you
here, not just Mick) use....
 
 
>resulting in a couple of arrows that went almost all the way thru.
>The upshot of this is that I already have arrows that need to be
>refletched (hope I'm using the correct terminology).
 
Sounds good to me.
 
 
>Anyway, I'd be interested in a sort of step-by-step procedure for
>refeathering arrows.  Is there a kit I need to buy?  Any help
>would be appreciated.
 
Gander Mountain, Cabella's, etc. sell something called an Arizona
EZ-fletch.  I have a friend who has one, and it works quite nicely.
 
BTW:  will it work on carbon arrows?  If not (as I suspect), what will?
 
>I'm also looking for ideas on what works well for targets.
 
See above.
 
      -----------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |   President - Bryan/College Station
cbarnes@tamvm1.tamu.edu |         Retriever Club.
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |   "Dedicated to the betterment of
(409) 845-4437 (work)   |               the retrieving breeds"
Newsgroups: alt.archery
From: mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu (Michael J. Edelman)
Subject: Feather Fletch question
Reply-To: mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu
Organization: Wayne State University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:24:38 GMT

Back when I shot 2117s with Plastifletch off a flipper rest, all my arrows
were fletched with the "cock feather" at 9 o'clock. I thought that
that was the only way to 3-flecth.

But now, shooting feather fletching off the shelf, I read in Jim Chinn's
"Winds of Change" that he recommends putting a cock feather at 12 o'clock,
with the other feathers at 4 and 8. Another author recommends the traditional
9, 1 and 5, but says to ignore orientation- it doesn't matter.

Hmm. Puzzling. Any perspective from feather shooters?

     --mike

(Obvious advice of the week: My Saunders bow excerciser- a sort of slingshot handle 
with elastic bands that simulates drawing a bow- comes with a warning not to release
the handle when the bands are drawn. I wonder if that's there for a reason?)


Newsgroups: alt.archery