From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 05:49:42 GMT

stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
: Well, according to the latest census, 1991, Serbs are claiming 56% of 
: territory of Bosnia.  Rest is taken for logistical purposes, while the
: war is going on. It is rather difficult, having much smaller number of 
: forces to keep up only this territory.  Serbs are willing to 
: negotiate exchange of land in order to allow Muslims to achieve the
: viable state, which at this moment they hardly have.  But, Muslims
: should not have started this, without finishing negotiations with
: Serbs.

Then, why do they control 70% of BH, and are still laying siege to Sarajevo?
It doesn't jibe with your comments.

: Serbs gave guarantees that everyone will be allowed to return to 
: their original habitats.  Considering that recognition of new
: Serbian state would surely not come until this is fulfilled,
: I believe that this would be the case.

This is impossible!  The Serbs have been destroying the homes when they kill
or drive the people out of them, even if they are civilians. 

: Not also, but only, according to UN reports.  Do not mix us up 
                                                           ^^
: with Croats who have an undefined number of soldiers in Bosnia 
: ( estimates are from 10.000-40.000 ). 

So, you accuse me of being partisan because of ethnic background, but now
we see why you are putting forth propaganda.

: >Serbian motto?: let's rape, pillage and kill: it's tradition!  Gag.
: 
: You have deleted most of my argument to be able to say this.
: I think that the basic point of your posting is just to get
: your frustration out, not to try to find out more about situation
: there.  

Read the latest Newsweek.  But, of course, it must be run by Muslims, since
it doesn't take the Serb position...

: You seem to have a fixation on rapes.   You are not capable of making 
: an argument without mentioning rapes.  I mention self-determination, you
: mention rapes.

You have denied the ethnic cleansing comments by others.  Read Newsweek to
get an idea of how many rapes, unjustified killings, etc. are going on.
The rapes are just examples of the ethnic cleansing going on.  While rapes
do occur during times of war, the current situation in BH is way beyond
what is "normal".

: How many Viet Nahm women were raped by American soldier 
: some twenty years ago?   How many civilians were killed then?  And did
: anyone suggested that it is a planned policy of American government
: to rape Viet Nahm women?  No, so the bottom line is that 
: you are trying to play on emotions, not on the well defined arguments in 
: your postings. 

No, you don't have well-defined arguments.  All you say is that nothing bad
is happening, Serbs are defending themselves before the Muslims could hurt
them, and all will be hunky-dory if the Muslims just give up.  Hardly precise,
given all the information coming out of Bosnia.

:Again, death camps have been shown to be PR matter.  There is a big difference
:between death camps and detention camps.  

Exactly, which is why the people are so upset with the Serbians: because they
are running death camps (or were, until people started investigating them).

: And, as I said, Serbian side does not claim that Muslim attacks occured only
: in past.  Muslims started attacking Serbs and Serbs started attacking 
: Muslims.  Order will be found out after the war, at this point everything
: is rather obscure by PR companies and biased reporting.
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh, yes, the much-feared Muslim PR companies, stronger than the Serbian army...
Please let us know who these PR companies are, and where the money is coming
from, and why the Muslims are funding the PR companies instead of getting arms.

: In two previous
: cases, Muslims started first.  Serbs claimed that Muslims started to 
: take over police stations in the areas where Serb had majority or
: where there is balanced population.  

So, you fully support the independence of Kosovo, since 90% of the people
are Albanians.

: Slovenes deny right for self-determination of Serbs.

Unfortunately, Serbs define self-determination as destroying the Croats and
Muslims.

: And rapes occur in any war.  Pathological behaviour is not connected
: with only one side.  Again matter of better PR  relations.

Oh, yes, the dreaded Muslim PR machine.  What happened to the Serb PR machine?
Why don't they have a stronger one, since they are more well-off at this time?

: Well, if it is the same hotel shown at the very beginning of the
: war, it was on Serbian territory.  It is where shrapnel wounded member
: of BBC team. So Muslims should be asked about this. 

So, Sarajevo is Serbian territory?


Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia