From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: REDBAITING on the nets...
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 12:33:30 GMT
Followup-To: alt.activism.d

As quoted from <1993Jan1.210348.18154@mont.cs.missouri.edu> by Hank Roth <odin@halcyon.halcyon.com>:

> ----------------------<END of QUOTED TEXT>----------------------
>  
> [Kahl's [PUBLIC] scathing and irrational personal attack on me 
> speaks voluminously about his mental condition, his paranoia, 
> his chauvinism and very specificially his "redbaiting." -----HR]

I know Murray Kahl, and you're no Murray Kahl.

> Lately I have been the target of some very persistent 
> "redbaiting" from Murray Kahl, ET AL. The tactic is the same 
> whenever anyone challenges the dominent paradigm. It is part of 
> the right wing reality to fear change and to oppose dissent.  
>  
"Redbaiting" - The act of taking Hank Roth's own statements and using them
against him.  Give it up Hank.  Nobody cared about the whining in FidoNet
POLITICS, nobody's going to care here.  If you aren't man enough to defend
your statements, don't MAKE them.

> This "red-baiting," has been used by demagogues for years and 
> also by the innocent. It is a virtual reductio ad absurdum for 
> some [the innocent] to oppose distributional imbalances and at the 
> same time defend the established order. While exploitation of labor 
> is a form of injustice akin to theft, the labouring poor have in 
> spite of that been conservative, patriotic, religious and 
> subservient to the paternalism of power. And they are confused 
> and manipulated by "redbaiting."
>  
The VERY idea, that somebody would hold you to account for what you say!
Have you alerted Jeff 'n Esty?

> Prior to the Civil War, those who would advocate the abolishment 
> of slavery were likewise denounced by pro-slavery opponents as 
> "abolitionists", the term of opporobrium then.

To attempt to associate yourself with Thomas Jefferson and 
abolitionists is the height of arrogance.

> As long as we have injustice in society, there will be "baiting" 
> of one form or another. It is a preferred demagoguery of the 
> apologists for class oppression, for race oppression, ethnic and 
> sex oppression. 
>  
What kind of baiting do they have in Cuba Hank?

> And this insideous "red-baiting" also serves to divert attention 
> from the issues and to manipulate public opinion. Our history is 
> replete with examples where "scapegoating" and "red-baiting" has 
> set back class struggle for justice. 
>  
Don't worry Hank, I'll only castigate you for the things YOU say.

> It took 23 years to abolish the House Un-American Activities 
> Committee (HUAC). These irrational attacks on those who challenge 
> injustice by scapegoating and baiting them blunted the effect 
> of a real "free" market of ideas.

Have the abolished the equivalent organs in Cuba Hank?

> Some, like Kahl expect everyone to satisfy some kind of 
> politically right-wing correct litmus test as his incessant 
> inquisitorial tone would imply. And pragmatically, witch-hunters 
> historically have not and do not accept honest answers. What he 
> wants to hear and will not be satisfied until he hears is that I 
> [and my group, however they may be] are planning the violent 
> overthrow of the U.S. government. He won't accept anything less. 
> His arguments are too often extraneous to the subject matter and 
> consistently keeps coming back to this conspiracy theory of his, 
> and eluding to me and my "groups", which are all figments of a 
> very wild imagination. 

It's a good thing YOU don't have a LEFTWING correct litmus test... you DON'T
do you?  If you did, you might be tempted to start a LEFTIST ONLY echo in
FidoNet.  I know YOU would NEVER do that.  That stuff's only for paranoid
Stalinists who only want to stroke their own egos, right?

> "Redbaiting" is like a "political smear" and nothing new.  In 
> our time we have heard "liberals" besmirched and denigrated 
> It is a mechanism employed by those who fear change to discredit 
> those who attempt to bring change. 
>  
I also hear Nazis and Klansmen denigrated.  In fact, I've done it myself.
Don't forget to tell us how wrong THAT is too....

> The baiting is an attempt to discredit by alleging a communist or 
> socialist association, and this has been the most common 
> political smear employed in the United States during this 
> century. We shouldn't forget that it's most evil and devastating 
> manifestation occurred during the "McCarthy period" of the 
> 1950s, when a cloud of fear and suspicion hung over this entire 
> country. 
>  
I never allege one when it isn't present... right Hank?

> This renewed offensive by netters, who tend to the right anyway 
> [against peaceful dissent] is the logical extension of 
> the Reagan/Bush rhetoric which discredits through "red-baiting" and 
> "terrorist-baiting."  

Getting the bad end of the arguments in usenet too, are you?  Have you tried
a debating class?

> Hofstadter says that the political smear is a "paranoid style" 
> often aided and abetted by disinformation which emanates from 
> members of the government [of the social order] and it is the 
> hallmark of the authoritarian right-wing. 

What kind of "political smear"?  Is that like calling somebody a 
"fascist"?

> It is our democratic right to work for peaceful change.
> Unfortunately "red-baiting" only diverts attention from the 
> substantive matters under discussion, and prevents the real 
> issues from being considered. There is no forum that is 
> appropriate for the irrationality of "redbaiting." 
>  
How about "fascist baiting"?  Is there a forum appropriate for calling
people "fascists" because they don't follow the general line?

> "Redbaiting" by Murray Kahl or anyone else is a breach of good 
> sense and belittles these conferences, and never tends to move a 
> discussion forward. 
>  
You've never called anybody a fascist, have you?  You'd never run a 
closed echo, would you?

>                      Hank Roth
>  
>  
> [via P_news]
> 
That's not a closed echo, is it...?



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