HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rhiann@milton.u.washington.edu (Sandra Hereld)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Cherryh and women readers
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:57:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Sep28.235704.29785
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Sep24.233011.13839@radian.uucp> kathrynw%radian@natinst.com (Kathryn Whitworth) writes:
>In article <19lj2aINNpbn@gap.caltech.edu>, ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander) writes:
>> 
>> So, you women readers out there, name some authors or books with women
>> characters you really liked, or that you found very attractive in some
>> respect.
>> 
>> -- Ojvind Bernander, MCP
>> 
>
Cordelia in _Shards of Honor_ and _Barrayar_ 
Elli Quinn in _Ethan of Athos_ and _Brothers in Arms_

All four books by Lois McMaster Bujold

Sandy
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh, Women characters in SF
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:42:25 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Distribution: usa
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit


In article <1992Sep21.083645.4493@bb1t.monsanto.com> bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:
|>  Felt the same in Rimrunners. 
|                    **********
|I beg to differ.  Bet Yeager is probably my all-time favorite 
|character in Cherryh's writing.  The exposition that went into 
|developing her charcter is superbly done.  This is a very complex 
|person.  ...

Oh, I agree, she is definately a solid, even realistic character.
The problem is, I *don't* *like* *her*.  I think she is a scuzbucket,
so I find it difficult to *care* what happens to her.

Indeed, I failed to find *any* characters I *cared* about in Rimrunner.

|  (Can't give much more in the way of 
|examples without a lot of spoilers warnings.)

Perhaps I could use a spoiler, that way I *might* be able to finsih
the book :-)
|
|I rather liked the two women miners in _Heavytime_.  And, if you have 
|not read it, definitely _Cyteen_.

Cyteen, now, was great.  Definately worth reading.

|Well, after I read _Rimrunners_ I *really* started to push this book 
|at her, practically begged her to read it.  Finally, on vacation with 
|lots of time I got her to start it.
|
|She read three chapters (and I think the opening chapters of 
|_Rimrunners_ are real grabbers) and put it down.  Said she just 
|couldn't get into it and couldn't identify with the charcter.
|
|Now, herself is no sissy.  She is a domestic relations attorney who 
|deals primarily with abused women.  But she could not identify with 
|Bet Yeager.  (Sigh, again.)

Ms Yeager is *hard* to identify with.
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: st1rk@rosie.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin)
Subject: Re: Sexual Politics and Diane Duane (was re Diane Duane, _D into Fire_)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:48:00 GMT

In article <15559@suns7.crosfield.co.uk>, jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford) writes...
>In article <BvMEy3.7sy@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct3.150611.16782@news.cs.indiana.edu>, gemerson@cherry.ucs.indiana.edu (gennis emerson) writes..

>>> The plot seemed sort of a side issue to the
>>>presentation of the relationships and the "look how reasonable we are about
>>>sleeping with each other" attitude.
>>
>>     No it didn't.  Maybe it's just that you couldn't get past
>>     the fact that they were both men and so felt compelled to
>>     think about that aspect every time Herewiss and Freelorn
> 
>The basic premise is reasonable enough, but I think that Duane did tend to
>get slightly preachy about it in the first book. Compared with the second
>and third books, the first one does go slightly overboard (IMO, IMO :-) )


Given a world in which same-sex pairs are accepted, you can't get preachy
about it in any meaningful sense. In the Herald Mage series of Lackey, the 
society doesn't accept same-sex pairs as a matter of course, so Lackey does
have the tendency to get preachy. My first comment to the guy who loaned
me his copy of Duane's books was to point out the acceptance of the same-
sex relationship in such a way that you could forget about it.

Some of my favorite books in which a same-sex pair is featured have been ones
in which the pair is just plopped right into the plot. That, IMHO, is what
makes a good novel of this kind, especially if the pov is the same-sex
pair. I go out searching for a novel which accepts this kind of sexuality
as a matter of course, merely because they hardly exist.

I loved Mercedes Lackey's series because it is rare. There are quite a few
points in the books where the same-sex pair is accepted implicitly (e.g
the Shadow Lover is male for Vanyel).

>Highly recommended - the later books are excellent, and the first one is
>pretty good for a first novel.

I still need to get a copy of the third book.

-- Darin

st1rk@jetson.uh.edu                                              
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: wilder@mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
Subject: Re: Julian may: history of the rebellion??
    <1992Oct1.110454.25180@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 17:28:38 GMT

In <1992Oct1.110454.25180@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:

|I don't think so. The 'Pliocene Companion' (written by Julian May and 
|is a refrence book on the Pliocene Triolgy), says she originally 
|planned the Milleu Trilogy (Jack the Bodiless, Diamondmask, etc..), 
|but felt she would be causing readers to jump straight into the 
|Intervention and Rebellion, and would turn readers away, so she wrote the
|Pliocene books as background. There was no mention of others.

Jesus Christ.  I'd kill to be able to write something that good as 
"background."  <sigh>

--
==============================================================================
| Jeff W  uk06666@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they |
| Wilder  & wilder@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck.|
==============================================================================
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Looking for 2 books: help on author & title needed.
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:56:30 GMT
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <RENE.92Sep29114901@solsort.iesd.auc.dk>, rene@iesd.auc.dk (Rene Boe Soerensen) writes:
 
 > The second book was about a library ship traveling between a group of
 > planets in different solar-systems carrying the collected knowledge of
 > these systems. As they approach a planet they haven't visited for some
 > time they realize that a dictator has taken over, and a young
 > apprentice librarian gets caught into the struggle for freedom on this
 > planet.
 > 
 > I read these books at least 5 years ago, possibly up to 10 years ago
 > and I think the books were written in the 70'es.

This one sounds quite a bit like the Norwegian author Jon Bing's young-adult books
about the Library Ship Alexandria.  The first one certainly came out well before
1980.  However, I don't know if any of these have been translated from the 
Norwegian...then again, Norwegian and Danish are (mostly) mutually intelligible...

Leif the .sigless
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: julian may and Fury (spoilers)
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:47:02 GMT
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Rebecca Drayer (REBECCA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Oct4.154913.5766@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:
: >Evidence for Felice/Culliket being Fury:
: >	Felice survived, and was placed inside the Room without Doors,
: >from which not even Marc could touch her. In effect, Felice/Culliket became
note                                         ^^^^^^^^^
: >the first Lylmik.

: How do you figure?  I thought that the Lylmik were left over from the 
: universe before the Big Bang.  (I think it says this in the Pliocene 
: Companion.)  Maybe it's possible for them to become a Lylmik (as Marc 
: apparently did), but they couldn't have been the first.  

No. In the Pliocene Saga, the Milieu are considered thus:
(extract taken from page 72 of the 'Pliocene Companion')

"Lylmik (LIL-mik) pl. & sing., the oldest and least numerous race of 
the Galactic Milieu, mysterious in their actions as well as their origns. 
Krondak legends say that the Lylmik date from the previous universe - 
i.e. from before the Big Bang, which they somehow managed to survive. 
Poltroyan legends say that the Lylmik rehabilitated their dying sun, a 
red giant, turning it into a G3 by a metapsychic infusion of fresh 
hydrogen, transmuted from an unknown energy source. The poetical Gi 
believe that the Lylmik are pseudocorporeal messengers of the Cosmic All. 
The bumptious Simbiari don't know what to make of the Lylmik, but distrust 
them because they show an obvious bias toward humanity, having been the 
prime movers of the Intervention. Humans suspect that the Lylmik - whose 
forms are only partially visible to the naked eye and the deep-seeing eye 
- are extragalactic in origin and almost entirely "mental" in nature. The 
Lylmik themselves absent-mindedly declare that they don't know where they 
came from or what their true nature might be - and why should the other 
races be concerned when the Lylmik themselves are not? Humans are bemused 
by all this, but nevertheless esteem the Lylmik above all other coadunate
races because it is obvious that the mysterious entities love humanity and 
are determined to shepherd our metapsychic evolution until we fulfill our 
immense potential. The human-Lylmik connection is detailed in the Milieu 
Trilogy.  "

Remember also, that Marc and Elisabeth d-jumped at the end of 'The 
Adversary' to the Duat homeworlds. I'll will lay bets that Marc and
Elisabeth then managed to get the 'Mental Man' idea implemented in the
Tanu race.

: (Besides, the Lylmik like humans.  I don't think Felice does.  :-))

What I was suggesting was that Felice/Culliket became like the Lylmik,
not actually one of them, just like Jack did in JtB when his room in the 
hospital caught fire. 

: Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT        |    Rebecca@Yalevm.YCC.Yale.edu

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley
From: ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Robert Jordon's The Great Hunt
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:33:45 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

In Robert Jordon's The Great Hunt, the last line to the book reads
something like

    "Death is lighter than a feather, duty is heavier than a mountain."

Now this sounds very much like a Chinese saying, which goes something
like
    
    "Death is lighter than a swan feather, heavier than Mount Taishan."

Could this be a mere coincidence?  Or is RJ familiar with the Chinese
culture and sayings?

#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
|  W.H.Watt                        #  JANET:                                   |
|  Dept. of Accounting & Finance   #           w.h.watt@uk.ac.strath.vaxa      |
|  University of Strathclyde       #  Rest of the World:                       |
|  Glasgow                         #           w.h.watt@vaxa.strath.ac.uk      |
|  United Kingdom                  #                                           |
#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
From: eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:49:37 GMT
	<Bvns8t.HqM@apollo.hp.com>
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

Betsy Perry writes:
	Who's been feeding and clothing Aragorn for all those years?

Aragorn has been the beneficiary of a Gil-Galad Grant for Members of
Rudely Interrupted Monarchies.  He has had to apply for several
no-cost extensions, and has eked out the money far longer than the
funding body intended by living in woods and cheap inns with
disreputable persons, rather than in a nice villa, and by buying only
leather clothing in colors that don't show the dirt.


Elizabeth Willey
From: u920065@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Dean Bailey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Jac the bodyless
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:32:43 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)

Hi
  A couple of months ago I noticed J.M's long awaited book"Jac the bodyless"
sitting in a bookshop here in Tassie(That's near the Australian mainland)
Unfortunally it bound in plastic so you could read nothing of the blurb. A 
couple of days latter, it disapeared and I have not seen it since. Has 
anyone read it, if so whats it like?

Thanx
 
-Dean Bailey
From: lhb6v@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard)
Subject: Re: _Winds of Change_ by Mercedes Lackey (spoilers now)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:56:49 GMT

In article <3-0nw0d.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>On another topic, did you notice some of the throwaway lines that got
>snuck in?  Among the things we learn in passing:
>-- Sayvil == Savil (confirmed)

I caught this one (hard to miss)...

>-- Mornelithe == Leareth (surprise)

... but I didn't catch this, though I admit to skimming through some of his
rants. Where was it?

>-- Tarma has a new job, giving lessons to new Kal'enedral (expected)

Right, that was the Kal'enedral that recognized them, I should have 
figured it out :)

Another point... do you get the feeling we are being set up for another
trilogy? Unless Lackey really speeds up what has been a rather
leisurely paced series, there's hardly time to go chat with Vanyel,
train new mages, finish off Ancar, *and* deflect the Mage Wars echo.

Laura

--

Address alias changed -- good addresses are now lhb4v@virginia.edu and
lhb6v@faraday.clas.virginia.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: Recommendations??
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:33:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.171520.15007@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> cpeckham@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Peckham) writes:
>Hi,
>Can anyone out there recommend some good sf/f stories and authors
>which investigate any of the following:
>
>1) Unusual/questioning relationships between _good_ and _evil_

If you allow order and chaos instead of good and evil (with their
standard associations it isn't that far away), then I would
recommend Louise Cooper's _Time Master_ trilogy. It takes a 
different stance on the order/chaos relationship than you are
likely to find in most other fantasy novels.

Modesitt's _The Magic of Recluse_ also has touches in this
direction.

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: Co-Dominium Universe
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 01:07:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep23.130554.19925@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>, puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
 > Thank God! A Pournelle thread without any bashing.
 > 
 > 
 > Is it safe to come out and say that I like the guy now? or is it still
 > politically incorrect?
 > 
 > jim p.
 > 
 > -- 
 > Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov     
 > Madison,AL (205)461-4922  
 > i need to ask myself.....
 > ***********         Would I rather be right, or happy?         ***********

Don't worry, man.  Like what you like.  *I* don't hate Pournelle, either.

And one more thing:  FUCK 'Political Correctness'.  

Leif the .sigless
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Name query
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:04:27 GMT

JN> Does anyone know where I might have read the name 
JN> Melisende? I'm not sure whether it was in a book or 
JN> not, but it is certainly slightly familiar. The 
JN> character might have been a queen, although again, I 
JN> cannot be sure.

There is a queen or princess named Melisande in one of James Branch Cabell's
books -- I can't be sure without my references to hand, but I _believe_ she
is one of the daughter of Dom Manuel (the hero of FIGURES OF EARTH and by
implication of all its sequels), though that may be Melicent (Cabell has one
of each name, as I recall).  Anyway, my Cabell is packed at the moment so I 
can't help much more than that.


		Houston, Houston, do you read? I'd mortgage half my soul
		If I could see it one more time - Apollo, Ground Control
		The Devil take the men who killed the dream that died too soon
		For all my dream are haunted by a fire on the Moon.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: andrew@tagsys.com (Andrew Gideon)
Subject: Re: Enders Trilogy by Orson Scott Card
Summary: Forth book exists, maybe
Organization: TAG Systems inc.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 02:01:09 GMT

In article <927@hobby.ukc.ac.uk> mb7@ukc.ac.uk (M.Bloom) writes:
>I have just read the books Enders Game, Speaker for the dead and Xenocide, 
>by Orson Scott Card. I found them quite good, but I'm curious as to whether
>there is a 4th book after Xenocide? In the preface to Speaker for the Dead,
>the author mentions that he split Xenocide into two books, due to it's
>length. Did this happen?
>
>Any info on this would be much appreciated!
>
>Mark Bloom

Well, I met Mr. Card when he signed a stack of books for
me.  It was just when _Xenocide_ was released.  When
asked (I don't recall whether I asked, or if it was my
sister-in-law, or some other person), he claimed that the
forth book already existed.  They (the publisher) had
decided to hold it for a while.

It seemed odd to me (still does), but then marketing is
a rather arcane majik, don't you think?

	- Andrew Gideon



=== 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew Gideon              |                              |
| Consultant                 |                              |
|                            |   TAG Systems inc.           |
| Tel: (201) 890-7189        |   D2-181 Long Hill Road      |
| Fax: (201) 890-1581        |   Little Falls, N.J., 07424  |
| andrew@tagsys.com          |                              |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs])
Subject: Re: julian may and Fury (spoilers)
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 00:26:21 GMT

Damian Mehers (mehers@rutile.enet.dec.com) wrote:
: Talking about Julian May, does anyone have any clues as to the identity
: of 'Fury' from JTB?

(This thread came up a few months ago, before JtB had been released in 
Australia, so I partially avoided it then because of spoilers).

: Hows about Felice/Cullaket, with a dash of Victor ...

(I haven't got my books with me, and I have only had the chance to
read JtB once so far, but here goes)..

Most definitely Felice. In Jtb, Fury refers to MacGregor as the
Great Enemy, this would have resulted from the encounters between
Felice and Aiken Drum in the Pliocene. Fury then changes the Enemy to 
the Remillards for the time being. There are a few other hints in JtB,
such as Atoning Unifex/Family Ghost/Marc's familiarity with it
(at the passing of Victor, when the Family Ghost saves Rogi from Fury).

As for Victor, I possibly favor the idea Fury influenced Victor, and
not the other way around. Victor could have learned the subsumption
trick (the draining) from Fury - it's identical to what Hydra is now
using.

: Damian

The Wigs of Oz,
Still going through the "Pliocene Companion", looking for clues for Fury :).
Aaron Wigley
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: _Winds of Change_ by Mercedes Lackey (spoilers now)
Date: 29 Sep 92 03:08:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

lhb6v@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Laura Hayes Burchard):
>>-- Mornelithe == Leareth (surprise)

>... but I didn't catch this, though I admit to skimming through some of his
>rants. Where was it?

There's a passage at the end of the section where he thinks back on
his life history, where he lists off half a dozen of the names he's
carried.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Moon & Mutant Books
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:41:44 GMT

Mutant books:

Some Stephen King stuff for isolated mutants.
Zenna Henderson's "The People" stories for aliens who look just like us.
I've got more, can't think of the titles...

Joe

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: _Winds of Change_ by Mercedes Lackey (no spoilers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 22:30:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

novak@wri.com (John M. Novak):
>I can't help but think something is being missed here; this is *fantasy*....
>So, the 'twentieth-centuryisms' become a matter of taste.  

No, the objections being raised aren't over whether the milieu is
historically accurate, but over a related issue:  Aspects which the
reader views as jarringly inconsistent distract the reader and ruin
the ambience.  Like sf, fantasy has its conventions (concerning what
does and what does not need to be 'realistic') which authors must
be cautious in choosing to ignore.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down.  It's going to be the
   best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you can do that kills
   you! -- Dorothy Parker