From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Idolatry Is Equal To Atheism
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:32:14 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com

 RS> Date: 11 Nov 92 04:00:42 GMT

Continued from prior post...

V.13 the L-RD/HaShem. i.e. the chief  angel (Sh). {well...not  too much
question here as to Rashbam counts this as, of course, he is not taking
a  direct  relationship here  between the Angel and HaShem, right?!...}
But let's  look at the passage itself....vaiyomer  HA-SHEM  el-Avraham,
Now this is quite clear who is speaking here folks, and in light of the
above  commentary  and the various Rabbinic quotations on  this passage
following, it is very  plain to see.  "And  HaShem said  unto  Avraham:
Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying:  Shall {...}  V.14  Is any thing too
hard for  HaShem?"  [please look at the word construct closely here, to
continue...}

[BTW...notice  also in  commentary on verse 15. Sforno states...Avraham
knew that G-D'S  rebuke was well  founded and  could therefore deny her
statement. (S).  {But remember, the rebuke was from the angel?!}].

V.16   the men rose up.   Two of them went on to Sodom,  but  the Chief
remained with Abraham  to  inform  him of Sodom's destruction.   In the
conversation that follows it is he who spoke  (Sh; [...]   {Now here we
have  Rashbam  clearly  stating  who  is speaking,  even though he [Sh]
does'nt agree that it is HaShem, look at how this Angel speaks...

Again the Angel speaks in V.17 as...  And the L-RD/HaShem said...
Again the Angel speaks in V.20 as...  And the L-RD/HaShem said...
Still speaking in verse 21.,  ...I  will  go  down now, and see whether
they  have [...],  which is come unto Me {CAPPED in the Chumash}; [now,
the  two are  just leaving,  prior  to  this  they had been looking out
toward  Sodom  and listening  to  the  Angel Who speaks as HaShem]  22.
And the men  turned  from thence,  and went  toward Sodom;  but Avraham
stood  yet  before  HaShem, [already identified in Rashbam's commentary
as here being the  Angel who remained]  {At  this  point  please  note,
Avraham talks directly to the angel, asking HIM to spare Sodom,  now...
all  through  the  verses 23-25  the discussion continues with Him, all
referrances to the One addressed in the passage by Avraham  CAPPED btw,
then we come to 25b...that be far from Thee; shall not the Judge of all
the earth do justly? [still addressed directly to the Angel] {the Angel
replies} 26.  And  HaShem  said: [...]  then  I  will forgive... [NOTE:
Avraham's  reply  to  the Angel...] 27.  And Avraham answered and said:
'Behold now,  I have taken upon me to speak unto the L-RD,  who  am but
dust and ashes...,  and continues to address  the Angel as Ad*nai  till
verse 33,  which ends it with ...v'ai'aelek HaShem> And HaShem went His
way,  as  soon as  He  had  left  off speaking to Avraham;  and Avraham
returned unto his place.
Well folks if you don't see how we get this interpetation by this time!

...this also ties in with the prior discussion on the Tzimtzim, the
Memra, the Angel of HaShem, the Metatron, etc...

... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210

--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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