HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:04 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:

#Well, here's what Bill Wilson has to say about dropping the slide on an
#empty chamber:

#.... If the hammer doesn't follow--that is, ride down to the half-
#cock notch when the slide falls on an empty chamber--the first time, it will
#after you drop the slide three or four more times!  If you do this, what you
#have done is ruin your new trigger job.  Period.  Wasted money."

#"The gun was not designed to withstand dropping the slide on an empty chamber
#without the trigger being held back.  There is never any reason to let a 
#slide slam home on an empty chamber.  It not only destroys your expensive
#trigger job, but it batters the barrel lugs and the breech face and is, in
#general, very hard on the gun....

You know, it's not difficult to imagine a feeding malfunction in which the
top round is stuck slightly low in the magazine or the magazine is not
fully inserted.  When you press the slide release lever the slide will
slam forward and fail to pick up a round.  In other words, this sequence
can happen accidentally as well as deliberately.  Now, if Bill Wilson is
saying that when he has finished modifying a gun it is so fragile that
it is likely to be put out of action by a perfectly conceivable accident,
that is no doubt something which all his potential customers will wish to
consider.  Personally, if I were going to be participating in a competition
in which rapid loading is required, and hence mistakes become more likely,
I'd look for a gun which is not quite so vulnerable to accident.

BTW, I've had this type of malfunction happen to me, and I've seen it
happen to other shooters  -  not in IPSC or Action Match, but in ordinary
UIT-style competition where someone was just a fraction careless and the
magazine was not quite fully inserted or the rounds had become jammed.  
OK, it _shouldn't_ happen, but it _does_.  I have not yet seen a gun
damaged as a result.

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning A-bolt
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:53 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

#According to the 1992 Browning catalog, the A-bolt DOES have a screw-adjustable  
#trigger set at the factory at about 4 pounds.  The ones I dry-fired seemed to  
#have good triggers.  Could this be a recent modification?
#
#Mikael

This is good news for Browning fans.  The triggers I tried about a year
ago were crisp but heavy (the cheap-looking gold trigger didn't help
win my heart, either).  If they're adjustable down to two pounds or
so, my opinion of Browning has gone up.

Toby Bradshaw
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: clean reloading
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:56 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:


#I've recently started shooting at an indoor range and become more concerned
#with the combustion by-products from handgun ammunition.  I've already
#decided that for indoor shooting, only clad or jacketed bullets will do.

#I also picked up a box of the new Fiocci lead-free primers.  There is
#no information on the box to suggest whether there is any difference
#in ignition characters verses standard primers.

I recall reading (and sorry, I can't recall where) that the problem with
indoor ranges was not lead from the projectiles but lead from the 
combustion by-products.  However, unless every shooter on the range
is using lead-free combustible components (and the .22 shooters won't
have any say in how their ammo is constructed) you efforts will give
you a warm inner glow from having done the right thing and that's about
all.

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AR-15
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:40 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


Subject:  AR 15 Purchase

I have a couple of questions to pose to the collective firearm knowledge of this
group.  I'm thinking of buying an AR 15 (either the sporter or the H-BAR).  However,
I've been told that there are different varieties of each (competition, match,
etc).  What varieties are there, what are the differences, and what are
reasonable prices for each?

Posted in behalf of:

Dana Rigg
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com

Direct any e-mail responses to above address
----------

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:11 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA


At a Big 5 store I watched as a salesman showed a customer a pump 12ga.
Acting on the customer's request on "how do load those things?" he was
triing to figure out how to put 38spl ammo into the loading port of the
12ga.  

QUIZ:  How many wrongs are in this situation?  And how many of them does
it take to make a right?

Also, (at a gun shop that I hang out at) a friend of mine who works there
and carries a loaded Colt responded to another friend's request to see his
Colt.  He performed the unload drill in the REVERSE order and handed him 
the gun, safety off.  A casual as I could, (not to get _anyone_ excited)
I asked if I could see the gun - and grabbed it by the slide; thumb blocking
the hammer.  Should have seen the looks on EVERYONE's faces when I kicked
the loaded round high into the air.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com

Xref: sparky rec.guns:11782 talk.politics.guns:19389
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Canadian Firearms Regulations
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:39 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC


For a copy of the latest Firearms Regulations from 
Justice Minister Hon. Kim  Campbell
call (613) 957-4222  (federal communications department) and
request them. They will be mailed to you (in Canada) at no cost.

Once you have seen them, you can call Hon. Kim Campbell
at (604) 666-8888 to express your thoughts.


rec.guns.obligatory: Thanks to everyone on the discussion on
bullet-keychains and airports, I removed mine before going
through Vancouver International and then Frankfurt Main in Germany
and did not have any problems.



-- 
Greg Booth BSc                        | Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS    |  	Incolumitas
Motorola Mobile Data Division         | 
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: clean reloading
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:08 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


I've recently started shooting at an indoor range and become more concerned
with the combustion by-products from handgun ammunition.  I've already
decided that for indoor shooting, only clad or jacketed bullets will do.

I also picked up a box of the new Fiocci lead-free primers.  There is
no information on the box to suggest whether there is any difference
in ignition characters verses standard primers.

Has anyone had experience with these?

-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Another irritating S&W 586 question
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:45 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <9208190919.aa16734@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:

|> #I noticed, while looking at the original instructions, that it looks
|> #like the barrel screws right off.  Would it be possible for me to
|> #remove the 4 inch barrel, replace it with a 6 inch barrel myself?

Entirely - I've done it myself.  The problem is, to do it right requires an 
upfront investment of about $250 in tools.  Plus, the replacement barrels run
$80-$150, depending on model, finish, and caliber.

For that magnitude of expense, you could buy the same gun with the other length 
barrel.

|> A gun smith could do it for you.  Some rather minor work might be need to 
|> make the barrel index at the right point (so the underlug isn't on top
|> when it's screwed down tight).  They also have the barrel crimped in.

The barrels *are not* crimped in.  Older S&W revolvers had the barrel pinned,
but *crimping*?  Where did you hear such a thing?

The only problem with cutting the barrel down to a shorter length, provided you 
preserve the underlug, is aesthetic - the barrel markings will look like hell,
and the front sight will probably look a little odd, as well.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 s&w questions
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:02 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

cavasin@convex.com (Vince Cavasin) writes:

#Soon I'll be looking to buy a (probably) large-frame pistol in .40 s&w.  Right
#now I like the big smith and wesson (can't remember model number: 4006?) but
#everyone seems to think it's not worth the money.  I also like the baretta m96
#a lot.  I've heard some positive things about the sig (is it available yet?).
#I'm not very impressed with the glock.

Have you shot any of them?  Do at your local friendly range.  Opinions
change really fast when you use something...

#p.s. other than a couple brief articles on the glock, I didn't see much
#discussion on this topic here.  forgive me if I missed something.

There was a horrendously long thread on Glock vs. SIG a few months ago.
Glock, of course, won.  :-)

t.
From: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: X's on bullets
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:58 GMT
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England

I read somewhere that the 7.62 NATO issue bullets which had the greatest 
stopping power were made by the German military for supply to the Bundeswehr
(German Army). In tests, these bullets did not deform, they actually 
fragmented upon hitting soft targets. I think the publication was 
"International Defence Review" and the article was published several years 
ago. Needless to say the German bullets were FMJs.

-- 
*************************************************************************
*  Tom Oates  (Bristol Poly, England)    *   DISCLAIMER:-               *
*  JANET: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk    *   I speak only for myself.   *
*************************************************************************
From: etjue@lbl.gov (Eric T. Jue)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 23
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:20 GMT
Organization: LBL

In article <1992Aug17.143527.6240@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> Jim Heath,
jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu writes:
#I recently lucked into a used Glock 23 (smaller .40 S&W).  It
was
#$380 and he threw in a box of ammo as well.  Do they all come
#with 2 magazines?  I thought they did, but my friend who wanted
#to shoot it as well thought that they only come with one.  In
any
#case, mine came with 2.

You must be very careful when you buy used fragile instruments
such as guns.  Ideally, you should have an experienced gunsmith
evaluate the gun.  Otherwise, problems may arise.  In your
case, it seems you paid quite a lot for a used Glock.  Here in
Oakland, California you can get a brand new Glock for $389 at a
place called The Traders.  This is not their normal price but a
sale price that goes on every other month.  That price is
effective on all Glock models.  This is the standard package
with 2 newly designed free-falling magazines.

Eric T. Jue
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:07 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

I think that it might be useful to present some of our dumb
mistakes as learning material.  I'm sure that most of us
have done something or other while shooting that might have
been avoided if we had been thinking about it, or more
observant of what we were doing.

This migh help others learn to avoid potential trouble by
someone else's experience (that is, less painfully).

I'll start out with one of my own:

This summer I was doing some target shooting and shot the
chin strap off my hat.  While I was wearing the hat.

Wait! Nobody was hurt, although I was startled.  My favorite
hat, btw.

It's not as bad as it sounds; I was doing some archery
practice and the bowstring caught my chinstrap when I released.
Popped it off the hat and nearly took my glasses with it.

#From this, I learned to pay attention to what was going on
as I shot and make sure that nothing was in the way to be
snagged.  I imagine that it might be possible to snap a
bit of clothing on the action of a semiauto if one got
careless, for instance.

Anyone else, or am I to be left out to dry?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:08 GMT


 I was at an indoor range once firing my Glock when it jammed up on me.  I
 cleared the jam and fired again, obtaining another jam.  I thought
 (correctly as it turned out) that something had gummed up the gun so I
 began to disassemble it.  Unfortunately, I did so at the firing line, and
 wouldn't you know it?  I chose that particular moment to lose my grip on
 the recoil spring and follower.  They when shooting (no pun intended) down
 range.  It was rather embaressing for me (and rather irritating for the
 other shooters) to have to fetch the range master and halt everyone's
 shooting so I could go retrieve the wayward pieces of my gun.
 
 LESSON:  Any tinkering with a gun (unloaded of course) should occur away
 from the firing line.

Dana Rigg
rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:46 GMT


Dan Sorenson's posting on Wenol also describes Flitz, another German
product with identical properties. I've also used a US-made version:
"Blue Magic". There are undoubtedly others, and they have similar
properties: nonabrasive polishes which work on most metals and some
other materials, and which have some anticorrosive properties.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:34:12 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Aug11.235939.14512@nsc.nsc.com> nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:
#Just wondering:  let's suppose for a moment you did happen to be using
#reloads, ones that you put together yourself.  Let's say you used major-
#brand brass (Winchester, Remington etc.), tumble-polished it, used the
#same primers the factory did, same powder, same bullets, sized the
#brass to factory specs...how would anybody KNOW you were using handloads?

At that point: why bother?  If you're matching the spec of the ammo
I'd want to be able to say that I was using ammo from XYZ and be able
to produce the half empty carton.

Anyway, to answer your question: I don't think it would be possible
IFF you were using new brass and exactly matched the primer and bullet
appearance.  It might be possible to do a mass spec on the powder and 
primer residue and find a difference, but this wouldn't be likely done
in a simple criminal investigation.  I'm sure that a mess spec of
the bullet jacket and core would show up differences hard to explain
unless you matched the maker and lot.

But it doesn't really matter.  If the point of the reload is to match
the factory ammo you may as well use factory.  I use Hydroshoks in 9mm
and Silvertip in .38 Special and am happy with the choices.  Sure, I
could load up something exceeding SAMMI specs and survive firing them,
and probably generate something more lethal than the chosen factory
ammo but why?  What I have will likely stop them anyway...

-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Underwater shooting???
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:39:27 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <1992Aug12.074241.2406@nntp.hut.fi> r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
#In article <168t8iINNboi@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
##No, it works fine: I know someone who took a bucket of water out to a 
##range, stuck his pistol under the water and fired it through the
##bucket (just to see if it would work...). 
#
#Well, I don't know about revolvers (one was used in the movie), but
#something else might not like this. For example a shotgun or a rifle
#may explode if there is even a few grams of something obstructing the
#barrel, not to talk about a barrel full of water! Think about how much
#the water will weigh and how much more pressure it will cause to shoot
#it out than just air.

General Hatcher (of Hatcher's Notebook fame) test fired rifles under
water.  He had no problems with pressure excesses.  I was surprised to
read this but the datum exists.

Hatcher's success doesn't necessarily mean that each and every rifle
can be safely fired under water; I am sure that there are a few that
can't take it for whatever reason.

It's interesting to note that Glock has a special firing pin designed
for using their pistol under water.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: glaird@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Gordon Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Magazine disconnect safety (was Re: Stupid shooter tricks)
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:48 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA


My semi-amusing story:

    This was related by a gun shop owner I used to chat with.  He was a 
teenager at the time.  Lived in a semi-urban environment.  He was in a
1st story room, looking out a window at his neighbor's second story bathroom.
#From his view he had a clear picture of a globe style of ceiling light cover.
He happened to be playing with his "unloaded" 30-30 Winchester 94 rifle.
So, in the interest of improving accuracy and his handling of the rifle;
he decided to sight in on that light and "dry" fire.  
   He nearly killed his neighbor.  Not because of the bullet though.  The
bullet hit the bulb square on and proceeded out through his neighbor's roof.
The neighbor just happened to be shaving with a straight razor at that very
moment, directly under the bathroom bulb.
   Apparently, had the neighbor used the straight razor on this kid, it would
have been far kinder and more merciful than the treatment he got from his
father afterward.
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hollowpoints illegal in N.J. ?
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:34:28 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <19051@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
# 
# In article <1992Aug3.232758.10856@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
# #...  As I understand it, it is recommended that
# #a person fire all the rounds in their weapon anyway - at least if it's
# #only six rounds - and then argue in court that they just kept pulling the
# #trigger until the gun was empty.
# 
# I doubt that such advice is credible.  Legally, once the assailant is
# clearly no longer a threat there is no justification for continued
# shooting.  That doesn't mean you have to pause between rounds to see
# if the assailant is still posing a threat, but you should stop firing
# when he drops, for example.
# 
# In fact, many people lose control during such an encounter and empty
# their weapons; many keep clicking away on empty cylinders etc.  That's
# a deliberate goal, however.  In fact in some scenarios there may be
# multiple threats and if you don't reserve some firepower for the others
# you may only be able to eliminate the first threat that draws your
# attention.

Based on my discussions with a police officer, the recommendation (in 
these parts) is to empty the weapon if an attacker is closing in on 
you: the reasoning is that the worse thing that could happen is for him 
to take the weapon away from you with live rounds still in it.  Obviously, 
if the attacker falls down or retreats, you must stop shooting.  

-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re; Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:05 GMT
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

OK, I've seen this thread going on for awhile now, and I guess it's
time to "come out of the closet" about my own dumb trick (oh, I'm 
so-o-o-o ashamed!).

What's the very first thing you get taught about firearms?  ALWAYS
TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT'S LOADED!  Why is it that it's these simple
rules we screw up on?

About 10 years ago, I used to carry a .25 semi-auto, because I had to
leave work after dark in a questionable crime area.  Every evening, I'd
carefully unload the piece and set it on the table in my tv room.  In 
the morning, if I had to work, I'd load it up again.

One Friday night I'd stopped off for (more than) a few beers with some
of the guys from work.  The next a.m., I found myself sullen and hung
over, sitting in front of the tv, watching Big Time Wrestling and feeling
like I was gonna puke.  The maniacal rhetoric issuing forth from the
WrestlingHulk (not Hogan) on the little blue screen got to be just a bit 
too much to bear in my fragile condition...  I picked up the .25 from the
table, cocked the hammer, and pointed the gun right at the tv image of 
Rick Flair.  Thinking the gun was unloaded, I pulled the trigger.

The world went into slow motion at the sound of the gunshot in my tiny
tv room.  The bullet punched a hole in the 24 inch screen right directly
in the center of Rick Flair's chest, and I watched in horror as the screen 
image seemed to collapse into a circle and disappear into the smoking bullet
hole.

The only "up" side to all of this was when my best buddy pointed out that
there were probably lots of people in the world that had fantasized about
doing that to their tv sets, but I was one of the few that could actually 
say that I had.  Small consolation, though;  the new set cost $400 
bucks.  Needless to say, I follow ALL the safety rules now!


There.  I feel better now.  My, this _has_ been cathartic!  :-)

Ken

[MODERATOR:  Hmmmm.  After dropping a .308 FMJ through the telecast image
of Dan Rather, I suppose I *could* explain to my wife that I drilled our RCA
in the interest of therapy....   naw....]