HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: frerk@informatik.uni-kl.de (Frerk Meyer)
Subject: Re: MVC shortcommings
Reply-To: frerk@informatik.uni-kl.de
Organization: AG Telematik
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:06:26 GMT

MVC is a White Box as opposed to a Black Box.

If the GUI is a Black Box, you only need to know one
interface, with two methods: one for reading and one
for writing.

But MVC is a White Box in that you need to know, what's
going on inside. You have to subclass the right classes
and implement some predefined methods in a certain way
to conform to MVC.

Therefore it is difficult to write reuseable UI-widgets.
Many UI components need a separate 'mini' model apart from the
application. And there is no support or guideline on how to
combine these (in a hierarchy or other).

However it is understood more quickly how to write GUIs than
in U*IX & C* & X for beginners.

-- 
Frerk Meyer <frerk@informatik.uni-kl.de> IRCNICK = Portnoy

Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: golovch@prim.rose.utoronto.ca (Gene Golovchinsky)
Subject: trapping scrolling events in a ComposedTextView
Summary: Need to handle scrolling specially in a ComposedTextView subclass
Keywords: scrolling ComposedTextView
Organization: University of Toronto, Department of Industrial Engineering
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:33:51 GMT

I have a subclass of ComposedTextView (actually of TextView, but who's
counting) that needs to inform its container's container (a ComposedView)
that it (C-T-V) has scrolled.  I tried to track down the logic in a
ScrollingWrapper, but that seemed to apply to the scroll bars only.
And looking at the ScrollingView code, I didn't see any connection to the
C-T-V.  I assume that it does not invalidate the entire bounds but just the
area that is about to get scrolled into view.  Unfortunately, I haven't
found the code that does it... anyone know what's going on?

Thanks!

 2
G
From: beugnard@telegraphe.UUCP (Antoine Beugnard)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: help wanted for PP R4 : password DialogView and unix links problems
Keywords: PP R4,Unix links,paragraph editor for passwords
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:48:14 GMT
Organization: enst-bretagne Brest, FRANCE


Hi smalltalkers,

I have two questions related to PP st R4:

1 : does anybody had already realized a DialogView prompting for a password
that do not echo the password but, say, $*'s ? (with may be, a new paragraph editor). If so, could you give me some clue, thanks.

2 : the method isDirectory (and the -approximatively- related isDirectoryErrno:)
returns true for a directory, false for a file and reports an error for a link.
Links are quite normal un*x objects, how can I deal with them ?

Thanks for all helps, e-mail me any clue, I will sumarize and post answers within a couple weeks.

Thanks again
	Antoine
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
antoine Beugnard						e-mail: beugnard@enstb.enst-bretagne.fr		
departement informatique et reseaux		tel:	(33) 98.00.14.23
   ENSTBr BP 832						fax:	(33) 98.00.12.82
   29285 Brest Cedex France
________________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.object,comp.lang.objective-c
From: johnson@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ralph Johnson)
Subject: Re: MVC shortcommings
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 04:36:06 GMT

You have to define just what you mean by the "MVC paradigm".
There are shortcomings in various implementations of MVC,
but people fix them and call the result MVC.  So, was this
something wrong with MVC or not?

There was a paper by Shan at OOPSLA (90?  89?) that described
some problems with MVC.  However, you could call his result
still an instance of the MVC paradigm if you wanted to.  If,
by MVC paradigm, you mean separating the user interface from
the application by making three kinds of objects, models, views,
and controllers, then perhaps there is nothing wrong with it.
If you start getting more particular then you can probably find
things wrong.  However, the 4.0 and 4.1 version of MVC is much
better than the original Smalltalk MVC, so be sure you use recent
criticisms of it, or that you check to make sure that they are
still valid.

-Ralph Johnson

Xref: sparky comp.lang.smalltalk:2050 comp.lang.eiffel:1237 comp.object:3864
From: rh@smds.com (Richard Harter)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: 6 Oct 92 07:09:25 GMT
Reply-To: rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter)
Organization: Software Maintenance & Development Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Oct5.093531.8425@ips.cs.tu-bs.de> jungclau@ips.cs.tu-bs.de (Ralf Jungclaus) writes:

>As I understand the process of software development in practice, the
>prototype (having been validated by the customer) is taken and you put
>some nice user interface on top of it and that's it. Do you really
>want a prototype to have severe errors when it is presented to the
>customer with such a perspective in mind?? I wouldn't want to. 

Depends on what you are doing.  Quite often the situation is exactly
the reverse.  In real life the neither the user nor the developer knows
what's really needed by the user or what the interface should really be
like.  In this sort of situation one of the major objectives of proto-
typing is to discover what the specifications should be.
-- 
Richard Harter: SMDS Inc.  Net address: rh@smds.com Phone: 508-369-7398 
US Mail: SMDS Inc., PO Box 555, Concord MA 01742.    Fax: 508-369-8272
In the fields of Hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 17:05:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Bob Hathaway <objsys@netcom.com> writes:
>In article <8mgztqf@rpi.edu> maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
>>On the flip side, I'm under the impression that real time programming cannot be
>>done with a Garbage Collecting language, as the garbage collection could
>>happen at an arbitrary time, and cause a violation of the timing constraints.

      There's been some effort on concurrent garbage collection. 
Wirth introduced the first successful algorithm at a NATO Summer Study
session in the late 1970s.  

      Hermes has garbage collection and is intended for real-time applcations,
but the only available implementation is an interpreter.  Hermes has
some very good ideas in it, and I recommend reading up on it to language
designers.

					John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: bergstro@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom)
Subject: Re: update questions
To: comp.lang.smalltalk
Posted-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 14: 48:22 CDT
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 19:48:22 GMT
Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 14: 48:23 CDT

mjb@netcom.com (Martin Brown) wrote:
>In article <9209250143.AA11183@di.ufpe.br> Paulo Henrique Cavalcante Lisboa <phcl@DI.UFPE.BR> writes:
>>
>>    2) Is the "Look and Feel" kit from Digitalk already being sold to
>>       MS-Windows platform ?
>
> "Look and Feel" is now called "Parts" and is currently only available for
>V/PM for OS2.  "Parts" is available now.  All initial reports from users
>indicate that "Parts" is HOT!  It's not just a GUI builder, but is a robust
>application builder.

I just got V/PM last week - does Scoop cover this?  I haven't seen
anything about it in either Object Magazine (dreck) or JOOP.

>>
>>    3) Do we get a free one year subscription to Digitalk SCOOP journal when
>>       we buy its software or we must really pay the subscription ?
>>
>>   OBS: When my professor firstly bought a copy to the university we
>>        started receiving the SCOOP journal, but a few months ago it
>>        stopped coming to us even though we have updated to the
>>        Smalltalk/V for Windows 1.1.
>
> Digitalk has reduced the subscription price of Scoop $36 > $18, I believe.
>Also, Scoop is now bigger.  I'm not sure how long you get it free.

My registration card said that I will get 3 months of Scoop free when
I send it in.  $18 sounds really reasonable, assuming it's monthly.

Pete
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Organization: Samford University
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:44:02 CDT
From:         SDZITO@SAMFORD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: comparing object-oriented platforms

I would like to get off of this mailing list.  Please let me know how.

                                      sdzito at samford
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Date: Thu,  1 Oct 1992 20:58:21 -0400 
From: Stefan Monnier <osoelgaultier+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
	<TMB.92Sep29101816@arolla.idiap.ch>
	<1992Sep30.031100.7446@actrix.gen.nz>
	<TMB.92Oct1180516@arolla.idiap.ch>

Excerpts from netnews.comp.lang.eiffel: 1-Oct-92 Re: comparing
object-orient.. Thomas M. Breuel@arolla. (3014)

> What you are arguing for is opacity. Opacity can be achieved in many
> programming languages, including C and C++, without even ever using
> any OO techniques. That is, you can define a datatype in C/C++ such
> that you are guaranteed that no user of that datatype manipulates it
> without going through the interface that has been provided by the
> author of the datatype.

Sorry, it must be an error:
You seriously mean you can write code so that noone can use your datatype
directly ?

Show me how !


> 					Thomas.


	Stefan

-----------------------------------------------------
-- On the average, people seem to be acting normal --
-----------------------------------------------------





Xref: sparky comp.lang.smalltalk:1953 comp.lang.eiffel:1181 comp.object:3759
From: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: 29 Sep 92 08:27:07 GMT
Reply-To: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB

>In article <8mgztqf@rpi.edu> maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
>>On the flip side, I'm under the impression that real time programming cannot be
>>done with a Garbage Collecting language, as the garbage collection could
>>happen at an arbitrary time, and cause a violation of the timing constraints.

There have been a number of Real time systems produced using
Smalltalk for instance.  Real time does not imply no garbage
collection but if you actually mean safety critical then that might
be a different issue.

However, you can write GC systems which collect only at specified times
and hence be taken into account on timing issues.
   Dave Riches
   Email:  David.S.Riches@bnr.co.uk
   Smail:  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road,
           Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA.  England
   Phone:  +44 (0)279-402496
   Fax:    +44 (0)279-451434
From: vernak@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Verna Knapp)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: Request:  SimTalk info
Keywords: SimTalk
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:42:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: tekig7.7161
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Oct2.193834.8872@cunews.carleton.ca> nholtz@zonker.cascade.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
>I have been seeing references to a discrete event simulation
>package called SimTalk, but I know nothing about it, and can't
>seem to find anything via archie.
>
>Is the source for this available anywhere?  If so, where?
>

SimTalk belongs to Tektronix, Inc. in Beaverton, Oregon. It is not an official
product of Tektronix. I am unsure of the future status of SimTalk as I am the
author of this package, and Monday is my last day at Tektronix. In the past
it has been possible to buy unsupported copies (not cheap) of this package. I
was the manufacturing arm. Any attempts to buy SimTalk should be directed to
Rick Mootry 503-685-4202. The mailing address is:

Rick Mootry
Tektronix, Inc. 
MS 63/LAW
Corporate Headquarters
P.O. Box 1000
Wilsonville, OR 97070-1000

I doubt that individual copies would be available, but I don't know.

Verna Knapp
vernak@fenris.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:39:56 GMT

88600044s@csghsg5a.bitnet writes:

>In previous postings it has been said that Smalltalk is
>both slow and too big. I agree that the file of the final
>executable can be much bigger than appropriate. Now there
>is Envy/Developper (sic) that steps through all of your code of
>your application and removes all code from the image that 
>is not needed in your application. This process can take
>over a night to finish but the result is a minimum possible
>executable file.

      The Smalltalk crowd seems to be making progress on "big", but 
"over a night to finish" indicates remaining problems on the "slow"
front.

      There are Modula 2 systems, such as Topspeed Modula-2, that
remove all unreachable methods at link time with a "smart linker".
This takes a few seconds, not overnight.  There's something wrong
with the approach if it takes hours.

					John Nagle
Xref: sparky comp.lang.smalltalk:1939 comp.lang.eiffel:1174 comp.object:3751
From: Des.Kenny@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: 29 Sep 92 01:19:14 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

In article <+s_p3w=.nagle@netcom.com> nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) writes:
> Bob Hathaway <objsys@netcom.com> writes:
> >In article <8mgztqf@rpi.edu> maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
> >>On the flip side, I'm under the impression that real time programming cannot be
> >>done with a Garbage Collecting language, as the garbage collection could
> >>happen at an arbitrary time, and cause a violation of the timing constraints.
> 
>       There's been some effort on concurrent garbage collection. 
> Wirth introduced the first successful algorithm at a NATO Summer Study
> session in the late 1970s.  
> 
>       Hermes has garbage collection and is intended for real-time applcations,
> but the only available implementation is an interpreter.  Hermes has
> some very good ideas in it, and I recommend reading up on it to language
> designers.
> 
> 					John Nagle

Since 1976 when the first Eiffel compiler was released it has had tuneable 
garbage collection. The version from ISE ( the original ) allows you to turn
garbage collection off for time critical classes. The garbage collector in
ISE's version of Eiffel operates as a coroutine anyway. It is an incremental
garbage collector operating in small bursts rather than taking over the whole
system to clean the mess. The class MEMORY has features to control the
interval of collection. You can turn collection on or off and do partial 
garbage collection.

So you can tune the collection for real time
applications to when the resources are available for collection and not impact
time critical method operations. This is not new. It has always been there in
Eiffel since the first release.


Des Kenny
Objective Methods
PO Box 17356
Wellington
New Zealand
Phone: 64 4 476 9499
fax:   64 4 476 9237
email: Des.Kenny@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
From: cshaver@informix.com (Craig Shaver)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: ST/VWin 2.0 upgrade - OVERPRICED???
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:05:20 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <jax.717822313@well.sf.ca.us> jax@well.sf.ca.us (Jack J. Woehr) writes:
>
>	I disagree with the general tenor of this thread.
>
>	STVWin 2.0 is great for $195.00
>
Last I looked this was list at $495 and street around $300 + or -.
The update (bug fix) was close to $195 after shipping and mis-handling.

Craig

-- 
Craig Shaver  (cshaver@informix.com for now) (415)390-0654 (415)926-6407
Productivity Group POB 60458 Sunnyvale, CA  94088
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: 29 Sep 92 08:21:19 GMT
Reply-To: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB

In the referenced article maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:
>In article <welAJHa00Vor81pWA6@andrew.cmu.edu>, osoelgaultier+@CMU.EDU (Stefan Monnier) writes:
>|> Excerpts from netnews.comp.lang.eiffel: 26-Sep-92 Re: comparing
>|> object-orient.. John Nagle@netcom.com (1174)
>|> 
>|> > mwu@orion.oac.uci.edu (Matt Wu) writes:
>|> > >I'm currently evaluating several object-oriented development platforms
>|> > >and I was wondering if any of you would like to share your opinions on
>	[Stuff Deleted]
>	[More Stuff Deleted]
>
>I'm interested in Operating Systems, and Massively Parallel architectures.
>Just how can these techniques be applied to these areas.  Consider Kernel

[Stuff deleteed]

Don't you just hate it when someone changes the subject in the
middle of a promising thread without changing the subject title!!
   Dave Riches
   Email:  David.S.Riches@bnr.co.uk
   Smail:  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road,
           Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA.  England
   Phone:  +44 (0)279-402496
   Fax:    +44 (0)279-451434
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
From: jax@well.sf.ca.us (Jack J. Woehr)
Subject: Re: ST/VWin 2.0 upgrade - OVERPRICED???
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:34:10 GMT

In <1992Sep30.150520.8763@informix.com> cshaver@informix.com (Craig Shaver) writes:


>>	STVWin 2.0 is great for $195.00
>>
>Last I looked this was list at $495 and street around $300 + or -.

	I had bought STVDOS and they sent me the upgrade notice for
STVWin, so I bought it. From STVDOS for $85, which allowed me to 
deliver several applications under DOS, to STVWin for $195, which
is the joy of my late-night weekend marathon programming sessions,
I'm as happy as pig in shit. Now if Digitalk would just snap out
of their shell-shock from too much growth too fast and go back
to being human beings, life would be perfect.

		=jax=
-- 
 # jax@well.{UUCP,sf.ca.us}  # #  Member  # # Vice President,       #
 # du!isis!koscej!jax        # # X3J14 TC # #  Forth Interest Group #
 # JAX on GEnie              # # for ANS  # #   P.O. Box 8231       #
 # SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364 # #  Forth   # #    San Jose CA 95155  #
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.object
Subject: Re: comparing object-oriented platforms
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:34:56 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

Someone wrote:
>> What you are arguing for is opacity. Opacity can be achieved in many
>> programming languages, including C and C++, 

Stefan Monnier <osoelgaultier+@CMU.EDU> replied:
>Sorry, it must be an error:
>You seriously mean you can write code so that noone can use your datatype
>directly ?

Its easy to do.  Usually, you lie.  You define a structure in a .h file,
called for example stack_t.  But you give everyone else a different .h
file which defines stack_t to be void, or an array of characters, or
something else which does not describe the inside structure.  The only
way to manipulate the data is by calling the routines you have written
with your (real) .h file.

BTW: I've used this in a commercial product (at a different company).
I'm not saying this is a good idea.  It defininately messes up debugging,
and you need to be careful how you compile and link various parts of
your code.  But it can work.

Joshua Levy  (joshua@veritas.com)
From: Hubert.Baumeister@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Hubert Baumeister)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: Re: mysterious buffering and MVC in Objectworks\Smalltalk version 4.1
Date: 6 Oct 92 10:42:29 GMT
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Informatik
NNTP-Posting-Host: gs-serv1.dfki.uni-sb.de

In article <1appj2INN2hk@frigate.doc.ic.ac.uk>, scd@doc.ic.ac.uk (Sophia Drossopoulou) writes:
|> "I am trying to use the model-view-controller approach on
|> Objectworks\Smalltalk version 4.1, to
|> obtain monitors on objects which would diaplay any changes to their
|> state, even their intermediate 
|> state. However, it seems that some buffering goes on at the level of the
|> windows, and only the final 
|> state is displayed. Can anybody help me, please?

What happens is that when a view has to be redisplayed it creates a damage
event and puts this damage event into the damage event queue. This is done
with the invalidate message send to a VisualComponent.

These damages are then processed eg. when a controller of that window is in
its controlLoop. The processing of the damage event queue is done by the
message checkForEvents to the controller.

But there are times (as in this case) where it is not enough to wait until
the damage events are processed. So there is the possiblity to create a
damage event and then process the event queue afterwards. This is done with
the message 'invalidateRectangle: ... repairNow: true' send to a
VisualComponent.

Your problem here is that you do not have control over the TextView, and
that the TextView uses the invalidate message instead of the invalidate: ...
repairNow: true message do redisplay itself. To solve this problem you can
define a subclass of TextView which redefines invalidate to:

invalidate
	self invalidateRectangle: self bounds repairNow: true

If you use this new view then you will see that 'second' and 'third' are
displayed but not 'first'. This again is due to the fact that a damage event
is not processed. This time it is the damage event generated by the window
manager of your host windowing system. Thus in your example you should do a
'AWindow controller checkForEvents' after you have opened the window.

As for your method 'textViews' it is not an absolute copy of the code in
your Worspace.  You have changed the rectangle specification in 

composite add: (LookPreferences edgeDecorator on: aView)
		in: (0 @ 0.35 extent: 0.6 @ 0.85).

To have relative positioning the origin and the corner of your rectangle
have to be smaller than 1@1. In your example the corner is greater
(0.6@1.2). Thus your text view was displayed in an rectangle (0@0 extent:
1@1).

Hubert

-- 
Hubert Baumeister
MPI Informatik, Im Stadtwald, W-6600 Saarbr"ucken, Germany
Phone: (x49-681)302-5432
e-mail: Hubert.Baumeister@mpi-sb.mpg.de
From: latta@scam.berkeley.edu (Craig R. Latta)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk
Subject: ftp-aware filesystem browser?
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:56:37
Organization: Experimental Computing Facility (XCF)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: xcf.berkeley.edu



	Hey, has anyone written an ftp-aware filesystem browser for
Smalltalk? Something like ange-ftp for Emacs. I don't see anything
like it at Manchester. I'm just wondering, before I write it. I want
to be able to simply drop goodies from the ftp goodies library into my
image...


	Email to me, I'll summarize if relevant...

-C


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig R. Latta           Experimental Computing Facility                (XCF)
Composer, Software and   ParcPlace Systems, Inc.        (latta@parcplace.com)
    Recording Engineer   NetJam, Berkeley                (netjam-request@xcf)
latta@xcf.Berkeley.EDU   Smallmusic OO music project (smallmusic-request@xcf)
(standard  disclaimer)   proof NL parsing project         (proof-request@xcf)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.object,comp.lang.objective-c
From: ede978e@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Robert D. Nicholson)
Subject: MVC shortcommings
Summary: MVC shortcommings
Organization: Monash University, Caulfield Campus
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 02:49:51 GMT


I would like any information relating to the shortcommings in the 
MVC paradigm.

Thank you.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk