HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: Bates method
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 23:48:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.223832.26449@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>In article <1hami4INNpbj@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> shreeved@ece.orst.edu (David Shreeve) writes:
>>ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This Bates thing has been around for 50 years that I know about, and
>>>probably a lot longer than that.  Surely, if there was something to
>>>it, there should be lots of evidence by now.  If not, why not?
>>
>I have no knowledge of the Bates method but I would like to point
>out that our ability to test a theory is limited by our technology
>and our creative perceptions.  There is no reason why proof should
>exist for a theory that is old.  While its reasonable to ask for
>that proof, its absence doesn't disprove anything.


Look. It's really very simple.  Either the Bates method can improve
your vision or it cannot.  Nothing mystical.  An eye chart pre- and
post-test is all that's needed to substantiate efficacy in this case.
Forget the "theory".  Bates proposed a training procedure over 50
years ago.  Either it substantially works or not, and its verification
should be as straightforward as anything can be.  So why has there
been no investigation?  No fancy instruments or hocu-pocus is needed
here.  It would be a very doable science project for a high school
student.  One control group (no Bates), one experimental group
(Bates), with the two groups chosen to be as similar as possible in
terms of degree and kinds of visual defects, and statistically
assigned on unknown or uncontrollable variables.  There is absolutely
no reason in the world this can't be properly investigated for those
of us that demand some simple logic.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
Xref: sparky misc.health.alternative:261 sci.med:23289
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
Subject: Re: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:52:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: pitt.17945
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Followup-To: misc.health.alternative
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1992Dec22.191048.12457@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:

>Is this a correct definition of Orthomolecular medicine?  Are medical doctors
>who claim that specialty considered quacks by the orthodox medical
>establishment?  Is there a diplomate in Orthomolecular medicine?
>
Yes, Yes, and Not to my knowledge.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: jblackwo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J P Blackwood)
Subject: Re: Depression
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 05:15:25 GMT


What you eat can really effect your mood.

I've found that certain types of sugars make me depressed/foggy especially the
kind in pre-made icing from the store (like I expected eating this sort of
thing would do me good)

Incidentally I have found that many multi-vitamin tablets make me
foggy/depressed I suspect they maynhave a common ingredient with the icing.

Rainbow Light Vitamins do not make me depressed, in fact the lift me up and
incidentally give me really cool dreams. Does anyone know why the above is so??

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
J.P.
email: Blackwood.1@osu.edu

"The rule which forbids ending a sentence with a preposition is one up with 
which I will not put."
                                              -Winston Churchill
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:37:34 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


In article 5M8@gator.use.com, larry@gator.use.com (Larry Snyder) writes:
> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
> 
> >I realized that I had the dreaded 'adult-onset' asthma. This, for anyone
> >not in the current informational flow about asthma, statistically is
> >very likely to stay with you for the rest of your life. Childhood asthma
> >often disappears.
> 
> I work in a level one trauma center as an RN, and we frequently see
> patients with asthma, a good number of which die.  The only
> reason I mention this is that it is very important for you to know exactly
> what you are doing in regards to your health.  Make you you can put your
> trust (and life) with the person you are consulting with.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Larry Snyder                                    internet: larry@gator.use.com
> keeper of the Gator                                   uucp: uunet!gator!larry


Good post Larry, I hope I didn't imply in my mail that anyone with
asthma should withhold treatment from themselves during an acute
attack. 

As a certified Wilderness EMT, I never venture out without injectable
epi. I also carry a bolus of prednisone for longer trips, though I
really fear corticosteroids.

As a hopeful future PA, I'm absolutely an advocate of Western medicine's
modern emergency care. I do hold serious doubts as to the effectiveness
of Western med. in terms of long-term health and healing. It's a shame
that the AMA has taken such an unreasonable stand against alternative
medicine despite years, even centuries of proven effectiveness.

>Make sure you can put your trust (and life) with the person you are 
>consulting with.

I disagree with this statement Larry. I personally would not put
my life in the hands of any MD or alternative practicioner. I alone
am responsible for my life and my health unless I become so sick or
injured that I cannot maintain that responsibility (then I'll have to 
trust you and your team B^).

Greg




Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims)
Subject: Re: Midwifery
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 23:29:18 GMT

phoffman@orac.holonet.net (Paul E. Hoffman) writes:

>Thanks for the extensive list. There is another good quarterly I discovered

I'd like to add the newsletter of the Midwive's Assn. of Washington State
(MAWS).  Information on this and other publications may be directed to:

C. Ione Sims
E. 2520 Mason-Benson Rd.
Grapeview, WA 98546-9728
+1 206 426 9298

-- 
     halcyon.com, Public Access Internet, Seattle, WA, +1 206 382 6245
                 "A World of Information at your Fingertips"
                 P.O. Box 555, Grapeview, WA 98546-0555, USA
                    ralphs@halcyon.com,  +1 206 955 1050
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: Bates method (natural vision improvement)
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 23:34:44 GMT

In article <1hao1oINN139@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> ruthb@hotspring.sitka.sun.com writes:
>I began experimenting with the Bates method 5 1/2 years ago and have had 
>some success.  I was at -10 and -10.5 diopters when I started, and the glasses I
>wear on a normal basis now are at around -5 diopters.  I see probably about 
>20/60 with them and have stronger glasses for driving.  My eyes improved 
>rapidly at the beginning when I was taking a class and focussing on the vision
>improvement techniques.  I've become rather lazy about using them and have not
>had much improvement lately.  I have noticed that the longer I work with computers,
>the less improvement I have.


I wore glasses for 40 years, myopia, quite severe.  A couple of years
ago, I developed cataracts, not too severe, but enough to seriously
interfere with my normal life (very much reading, computers, etc.)  My
lenses were both removed and replaced with artificial lens
implants.  My vision now is measured as 20/20 in one eye and 20/30
in the other.  I went into the hospital in the morning, and, mostly
just waited my turn, half hour operation, and I walked home an hour
later.  No faith, no guessing, no maybes.  Driving without glasses for
the first time in my life and use glasses for reading only (now
far-sighted, of course, since the lens implants cannot be focussed).
If you have cataracts, don't hesitate.  I'm absolutely delighted!
Should I have taken vitamins, or whatever, instead of the operation?
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
From: fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: cistic fibrosis
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:04:23 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

has anyone ever heard of any breakthroughs in the treatment of
cistic fibrosis?  (I am not sure I am spelling this right).

-Kevin
fish@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

--------
Hackers do it with fewer instructions!

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:48:43 GMT

Thnaks. The post was a thumbnail portait of homeopathy. I didn't
mention the AMA's intense opposition to homeopathy because I don't
think it's the primary reason why homeopathy went into decline,
although it certainly is part of the reason. Homeopathy flourished
in the 19th century despite this opposition and did not go into
decline until the 20th century when opposition by the AMA lessened.
For example, the AMA repealed the infamous "consultation clause" which
called for the expulsion of any member who consulted with a
non-allopathic physician.

--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Chiropractic advice
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:04:00 GMT

In a previous article, thagerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu" wrote:
> 
>Since I started spending much of my workday at a desk and/or a pc, I've noticed
>an increase in neck, shoulder and upper back pain.  I've tried stretching 
>exercises at work and they do provide some short-term relief...but I still ache
>at the end of the day.
> 
>I am considering chiropractic care. A co-worker gave me a gift certificate for 
>a visit to her doctor, so there won't be any cash at stake for the first visit.

Chiropractic care is find if you have a real physical problem.  However, it
may be that you simply do not have the proper position for sitting/using a pc.
Is the middle of your terminal approximately at eye level (or slightly below) ? 
I find this very important to avoid neck pain and upper back/shoulder problems,
which I used to have before I raised it.  Even just a few inches makes a big
difference for me, since I do computer work all day.  Also, using arm rests can
sometimes help also when typing.  And of course a lumbar support should be
used, or a chair that has good support in that area.  A good chiropractor will
mention all these thing to you anyway.


Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: History of Acupuncture (was Re: TCM)
Date: 28 Dec 92 12:42:19 GMT
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.

Could you provide references for the statements you made about Chinese
medcines being adulterated?
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet (Clover M.)
Subject: Midwifery
Reply-To: la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Organization: University of NY at Albany
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 04:00:25 GMT

I read the charter for this group just now and noticed that midwifery
was included in the suggested subject matter.
 
As a future midwife (I'm a pre-nursing student now), I am curious to
know what the general opinion regarding lay midwives and certified
nurse midwives is.  I plan to get a master's degree in midwifery and
a bachelor's in nursing, and hopefully, another bachelors in sociology
with a minor in psychology.
 
I had asked for references to books, and have received a few.  If I
don't respond to the individual recommendations, thank you in advance.
I get over 500 messages a day when school is in session, and do not
always have time to do more than skim the mail, making sure I save the
important styuff.  It doesn't leave much time for replying. <G>

Thanks in advance,
Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
Clover
la1002@albnyvms.bitnet
This is my very first sig.file

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: Amalgam & Gold & Monitor Emission
Keywords: Amalgam, Gold, Monitor, Emission
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:43:23 GMT

In <hans.725449378@mcshh.hanse.de> hans@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Hans Lehmann) writes:

>Might it be possible that the cause of the illness is electrical current from
>the gold inlet to the amalgam, so that the amalgam goes into the blood and
>poisons the body increased additional by electromagnetic waves by the monitor.  
It sounds quite unlikely.

One could postulate some inductive energy disturbance in your jaw that's
causing you problems, but I've never heard of anything like that either.
You might be able to find an alternative practitioner who could tell you
more -- a dowser, radiesthesist, or radionics practitioner.

>For two months I am ill. Inflammation of the throat, weak voice, problems in
>maxillary cavity. I took twice penicillin and it helped only partly.

Whether or not it's your monitor and teeth, you need to see a health
care professional -- go to a doctor, qualified homeopath,
Heilpraktiker, or whatever.

May you find good health!

Pete
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Chiropractic advice
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 18:59:21 GMT

In a previous article, gordon@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GORDON ALLEN R) wrote:
>I had a similar problem with my first real, full time computer job, after 
>leaving an academic position.  My back on the right side including my shoulder
>became almost paralysed.  What I did to correct this was quit.  The day after I
>left, the pain and stiffness disappeared!
> 
>I`m not advocating this as a treatment, but it does raise an issue that diffi-
>cult to deal with delicately.  What my example points at is the psychological
>component of health/illness.  Dealing with just the symptoms and not the mean-
>ing of the symptoms is asking for trouble.  Please refer to Larry Dossey's new
>book, "Meaning and Medicine".  Please note that I'm NOT saying that symptoms
>shouldn't be dealt with.  That`s like saying to a person with a broken leg,
>don't get it fixed, or don't use crutches.  But as Dr. Dossey points out, 
>behind many, many illnesses lie messages that are not adequately dealt with by
>most practitioners.  Eliminating the symptoms, does not get rid of the under-
>lying issues that make us susceptible to the factors that cause disease/illness.

I agree that there is a psychological component of health/illness (see Science
secion of today's NY Times.)  However, I hate it when doctors say it's just
stress or psychological without considering all possibilities.  This is the
cause of why Fibromyalgia is often not diagnosed properly.

Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
From: cycy+@cs.cmu.edu (Cowboy)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: TCM
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:33:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BzMxJJ.KuF.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

As a start, I want to point out the accupunture is a technique of Traditional
Chinese Medicine, not separate from it. Also included would be different types
of massage and Chinese herbal formulae. It is a system which is in common use
throughout Asia, including in Japan, along with western medicine, and I believe
it is the oldest medical system in existence. It can also be very complicated.

							-- Chris.
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Date: 24 Dec 1992 17:34:38 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


>I am not posting here to blindly promote allopathic dogma.  I believe there
>may well be some good in homeopathy

This wasn't the impression I got from your first reply, but I will
adjust my perceptions accordingly, thanks...

>More importantly, why are you avoiding steroid inhalers?

I understand inhaled steroids come with few side effects, this is more
of a philosophical choice, one shared by my MD. As it pertains to me,
I view inhaled steroid used as an end-of-the-road treatment. I don't
promote that view to other asthmatics however. 

>it appears that either through your choice or through your physician's choice
> you may not be following optimal allopathic treatment for your asthma.

My choice, partly through my choice of physicians. However I recognize that
if I was (or am) unable to deal with my asthma through alternatives, that
I would definately seek optimal allopathic treatment. I am very aware
of the risks of long term unmanaged asthma.

>I suspect an up-to-date allopathic M.D. could help you to control you asthma quite well.

Agreed. However homeopathy offers me a 'cure' as much as that may sound like
a fantasy. Considering the low cost is seems reasonable to give it a try.
So far, I believe the results so far 'may' be very promising. This is day
5 of only needing 2 puffs of my inhaler.

Greg Dilley, Wilderness EMT (ok, it's not much but it's something!)
From: traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Vaccinations?
Date: 2 Jan 93 14:45:16 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <TERRYK.92Dec31085321@toady.encore.com> terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher) writes:
>1- Consider the potential complications of the diseases, not simply
>the common effects.  The permanently harmfull effects of these
>diseases are far more likely than the potential complications of the
>vaccine.  Mumps may lead to meningitis or to deafness.  Measles may
>lead to blindness.  There are other complications.  Read up on the
>diseases. 

Consider  the  *incidence* of complications of the disease and compare that
to  the  *incidence*  of  complication due to the vaccine. Also compare the
effectiveness of the vaccine against the incidence of complications.

When  I  was  a child my mother regularly took me to see other children who
had  measles,  mumps  and  chicken pox so that we could get the disease. In
those  days  no  immunization existed. My father (a physician) did not seem
at  all  concerned about complications. My sister and I managed a couple of
weeks  off  school  and  I  have  a  scar in the middle of my forehead from
ignoring  mum  and  scratching my chicken pox. Nowadays however measles and
mumps  have  turned into life threatening diseases and the whole population
requires immunization. Really???

Proper nutrition is far more important than any immunization.

The  incidence  of  polio  in  the UK is now being blamed on the use of the
live  vaccine.  During  recent  polio  outbreaks it was found that of those
who  caught  polio  a  higher percentage had been immunized than those that
had  not.  Not  so  effective  eh? Pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine has a
similarly poor record of effective immunisation.

Another  point  to  bear  in  mind  is  the  level  of  protection  you are
providing  for  your child by vaccinating. I don't know the correct numbers
but  I  would  think  that your child is ten thousand times as likely to be
run  over  by  a car than to be struck down with any of these diseases. The
obvious   thing   to   do  then  is  to  ban  all  cars  and  forget  about
immunisation.  Unfortunately  cars  and  immunisations  make  money for big
companies.


-- 
Michael Traub
BT Customer Systems, Brighton Systems Centre. traub@btcs.bt.co.uk
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Date: 27 Dec 92 15:37:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: martiniq.MARY.92Dec27103754
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: schumach@convex.com's message of 23 Dec 92 23:38:07 GMT


In article <schumach.725153887@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:

   >the disease itself and the medicine, herb or treatment. Rather the 
   >treatment works to bring the body back into balance allowing it to correct
   >the dis-ease naturally.

   This sounded good, before people knew anything about how bodies work.
   We have no such excuses today.

It is true that Western scientific medical practioners know something about
how bodies work.  It is also true that practitioners of many other systems
know something about how bodies work.  It is absolutely not true that 
Western scientific medical practitioners know EVERYTHING about how bodies
work.  There are many conditions for which they know neither the cause nor
the cure.  In these cases, they're reduced to making educated guesses, and 
it makes sense to consider alternatives.

[snip]

   Sorry to be so cranky about this, but we should not tolerate loose talk and
   careless thinking when peoples' health and lives are at stake. Some naif might
   mistake some of what passes here for actual wisdom.

I think you've overstepped here, by a good bit.  It's fine to point
out flaws in someone else's reasoning, or correct them on something 
that's factually incorrect.  But it's not your net, and you have no 
right to tell people that they may not discuss something that's 
within the charter of the newsgroup.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:33:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.194840.5912@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>
>BTW-
> I'm not against alternative treatments, but I do think it is a mistake
> to throw science out the window. If something does seem to work it would
> make sense to test it scientifically and see if it still holds up. 

No reasonable practitioner will disagree with this.  Unfortunately,
the technology available for many tests is simply not always
available.  While this could be seen as an easy cop out, only
time will tell whether it is true.  One homeopathic researcher
said that a good analogy to the difference between allopathy and
homeopathy is the comparison between Newtonian physics and
relativistic physics.  Einstein's theories would appear to
contradict much of Newtonian physics but both exist side-by-side.
The implications of relativistic theory were nondetectable in
Newton's day but are not so now.  This researcher believes that
the technology to detect the functions of homeopathy will be
available within a deacade or two.  Only time will tell for sure.

In the mean time, some of us will use these methods anyway.  Noone
is forcing the skeptics to use them.  We merely ask that the powers
that be do not make them illiegal.  Such legal threats do appear
from time to time.
>
>-- 
>------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
>\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
> \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
>  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .


-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com