From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: So whats in a constitution.......?
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:05:50 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Dec24.001520.18884@athena.mit.edu>, tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:
|> From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)

[Stuff deleted]

|>  hira@cme.nist.gov comments:
|> >There are plenty of evils in america that have *not* been stamped out. 
|> >To paraphrase Gil Scott-Heron, the constitution is but a noble piece of
|> >paper. I don't believe that it has all that much influence on people, 
|> >and more importantly their actions. It certainly has done nothing to
|> >enable access to equal education for everyone. 
|> 
|>  Should a constitution enable equal education for everyone?

You miss (purposely?) an important word there, *access*. A better way
to phrase it may be, 'enable equal access to educational opportunities.'

|>  IMHO, no. Constitution should protect me from you; you from me;
|>  me from the majority.... etc. etc.... But, it should not protect
|>  me from myself or you from yourself.

I don't think that providing equal *access* to education is protecting
anyone from themselves. Really don't follow your point here.
 
|>  Education is the individual's responsibility; and not mine/yours/constitution.

I'd strongly disagree here with you. It *is* the responsibility of the 
state to provide the *opportunity* for education. If the individual 
chooses not seize that opportunity, that is his or her problem. I 
would think that even most Libertarians would agree that education
is one area that the gov't has responsibility.
  
|>  "Equal education" is a meaningless, albiet demagogic, phrase. Education is

Again you choose to ignore the access part of my stmt. Equal access to 
education is neither meaningless nor demagogic, IMHO. It is in the interest
of the society at large, which includes "individuals" like you.

|>  not something one gets, or not something that can be given/distributed. 
|>  Education is something which an individual works for. The four walls of 
|>  a university (ivy league or otherwise) is not what makes "education." 

I strongly agree with this stmt. Wow, we actually agree on something.

|>  Its all in the mind, the effort, the attitude. The evil of ignorance, 
|>  is therefore, not due to constitutional problems or lack of opportunity.
|>  It is in negligence/irresponsibility. And, that is where the focus needs to
|>  be - the individual should be self-responsible.

Were you a member of Herbert Hoover's cabinet or perhaps press secretary? :-)
The evil of ignorance is due in large part to lack of opportunity. The
public school system in urban america is atrocious, and the crime rate
and ignorance level high. You may argue that the people who live in urban 
america are somehow 'irresponsible' or 'negligent' to use your terms, but
I would come to a different conclusion. The perpetuation of the urban 
plight is due in large part to the lack of educational opportunity IMO.

You talk about self-responsibility, etc, but fail to provide a concrete 
explanation of what reforms that you would propose. Would you propose to
scrap the entire public school system, and let individuals school themselves?
Why not provide us some specifics?

How were you educated? I assume that you either study or work @ MIT, which
is heavily subsidized by our tax dollars. Would you suggest that the gov't
should also stop subsidizing higher education? 

|>  More rat race for Grades/Degrees/Union cards - is all this "Stamp out 
|>  this Evil" - would achieve. Thats not "equal education." 

The rat race for degrees and materialism is fostered quite a bit by the
individualism that you so dearly espouse. Isn't this one of the tenets
of capitalism?

|>  Slavery was wrong in the spirit of the constitution. 
|>  So was/is discrimination based on sex/race/etc. 

Yeah, but the constitution was written a couple of hundred years ago, and
my original point was that it is but a noble piece of paper subject to 
the interpretation of the individuals in power.
 
|>  Unequal education, gymnastics..... aren't "evils to be stamped out."

Obviously we disagree. It is in the interest of all 'individuals' in 
a society to ensure their safety. The status quo in urban america will
just lead to more and more riots (like LA), and may even affect you
all in Cambridge. DC (the Murder Capital) is seeing a hell of an 
increase in crime. What's that old saying, "The rich get richer and 
the poor get poorer." Its just a matter of time before we see another
explosion from the poor. 

What is your reasoning for the scarcity of blacks in higher education?

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian