From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: source of morality for atheists
Date: 13 Oct 92 00:26:35 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada

In article <exukjb.308.718921519@exu.ericsson.se> exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
>As a conservative rational moralist [and nontheist] I would want to take 
>issue with the suggestion that the liberal western morality we have all 
>inherited is to be jettisoned so blithely; certainly not merely on the 
>ground that we have, at all events, inherited it and not excogitated it 
>ourselves. This is true of language, of the scientific method, and the 
>starting points of the western philosophical tradition on which any 
>revisionary process would have to procede, as well the as the accumlated 
>body of insights of enlightened commonsense.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but IMO, the western philosophical
tradition is, for the most part, a crock.  I think it attacks problems
from completely the wrong angle, although I don't feel up to explaining
why I think that.  It seems for the most part, to consist of thinking
up different ways to convince us that our brains don't work.  But they
do, and the scientific method is the way to use them properly.

>The distinctions and patterns 
>of reasoning within that moral system embody already much more careful 
>reflection on "human nature" and "the good of human society" than anything 
>we are likely to come up with in an afternoon.

I beg to differ.  I've found that acquainting myself with the findings
of science, and thinking for myself, provides much more satisfactory answers
than digging through the assorted rantings of people long dead.  I will
never again allow the Old Ones to dictate what and how I think.  Ever.
You Ken, seem to be well educated in western philosophy.  I would say
that you've been indoctrinated into that tradition, and therefore think
it's important and the best and only way to get answers.  For example,
you think that studying all the babble about proving and disproving the
existence of gods is a fruitful use of your brain.  It isn't.  It's
locking you into absurd and useless thought processes.  It's perfectly
obvious to anybody who hasn't been so thoroughly indoctrinated that
there aren't any gods in evidence out there, and that playing mind
games isn't the way to find any that might be hiding.

>Also, let's not forget our moral philosophy 101, that there's a distinction
>to be drawn between general normative moral standards and specific rules
>which have been worked out to apply to specific situations by different
>societies at different times.  Morality is not, after all, simply reducible 
>to these rules--the mores.  There is the logical possibility that what may
>require modification is *not* the moral base of the liberal western moral 
>tradition, the fundamental moral principles and truths as such, but the 
>moral rules bread into us and internalized by us since childhood.

Damn straight.  BTW, your indoctrination becomes apparent when you
call the western moral tradition "liberal."  Liberal in comparison
with what?  Your spectrum seems awfully limited.

>Moral rules have a notorious tendency to solidify over time and become
>identified with, and so take on the status of, fundamental unalterable
>normative standards. Whence the tendency of untutored minds to identify
>morality with a list of do's and don'ts.

I agree that morality cannot be reduced to a list of do's and don'ts.
I just wanted to point out that I think it's quite funny to hear you
speaking of "untutored" minds.  You've been indoctrinated with all the
bullshit, so now your mind is "tutored."  It's rather like the odd Christian
who likes to tell us that we're atheists because we're "untutored" in
spiritual matters.  What a joke.  What a nightmare.
--
Doug Graham          Unk, the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they
dgraham@bnr.ca       are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being
My own opinions.     smart.    --Kurt Vonnegut from _The Sirens of Titan_
Newsgroups: alt.atheism