HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:20:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.152545.10314@cirrus.com>, venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
> In <1992Apr10.002542.24216@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com
> (alok.vijayvargia) writes: 
> 
> >Violation here is in posting the second RFD for SCIA before six months
> >have expired.
> 
> How is this a violation of the guidelines, as they stand? Post the
> guidelines, Alok, and dont make these unsubstantiated statements.
> 

There can be only 2 cases (Clause 5, last section per se guidelines):

A) The vote passed: There is no need to have a new RFD at all. (My position
as well those of some others)

B) The vote failed: New RFD should not be posted before six months from 
the close of the last vote (Dec 12, 1991 + 6 months = June 12, 1992).

(Position of some people: Some votes (> 5) were improperly obtained and hence
should not be counted and thus the passing criterion was not met and hence
the group failed)

The new RFD therefore should not be posted until June 12 (sorry, not April 19).
This is where the violation has occured because the proponents of new RFD say
that the previous vote 'failed' in the above sense.

Guidelines do not say anything about invalidating of any vote.
(This is not an option until the guidelines are updated to include this
situation and some criterion be set for conducting RFD/CFV in such cases).

Until that is done:

My proposal is to conduct a straw poll among the net users
(news.groups, soc.culture.indian.american and soc.culture.indian)
to establish this one way or the other (Passed or Failed).

If 2/3 people voting believe that vote 'failed',
I will send a message to David Lawrence indicating that the vote
'failed' and that a new RFD/CFV will be conducted after June 19.

> it is not carried by many sites ...

48 % sites out of 45000 worldwide
sites still carry it. This is more than the sites which carry
soc.culture.usa (only 46 %).

Intended propagation for SCIA was only USA and I am quite satisfied with
48 % propagation which I believe is the most of USA sites.

Not every site is obligated to carry a group even after a universally
recognized successful vote. For instance even soc.culture.indian is
not carried at all sites (only 75 % of the sites carry it).

Also soc.culture.usa is not carried at all USA sites.
So even if some USA site is not getting SCIA, it is not out of line.

Think of it this way, no site would have been carrying it, had I not
pursued this RFD/CFV at all.

So don't try to make me feel guilty for this reason.

> -- 
> Venu Nayar			|		Internet: venu@cirrus.com

Alok
From: kemnitz@netcom.com (Greg Kemnitz)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.music.enya
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:57:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


Okay, this has been driving me crazy for weeks.  Just what or who in the
*&>%#! is an enya?


		Seriously.


		Jon

		jon@postgres.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: repayne@newstand.syr.edu (Robert E. Payne)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.arts.dragonlance
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 01:53:54 EDT

In article <1992Apr4.180931.15062@uunet.uu.net>, EGIBBS@csci1.csci.unt.edu (Austin Gibbs) writes:
|> Group: rec.arts.dragonlance
|> Status: unmoderated
|> 
|> Proposed Charter:
|>    The Dragonlance series from TSR, the makers of the AD&D role-playing 
|> system, has become a series with several books on the bestseller list. 
|> There are many uses for a discussion group.
|>    Testing new short stories on people already familiar with the dragonlance
|> world of Krynn.
|>    Discussing questions about the world of Krynn.
|>    A place for DM's to exchange ideas on running campaigns in the 
|> Dragonlance world.
|>    Discussing new releases of Dragonlance books.
|> This will be for serious discussions on these and other related topics. 
|> 
|> The discussion will last until April the 30th at which time there will
|> be a vote on wether or not to create the group.

	I would find such a group a good addition.  I find that there aren't
enough newsgroups with this type of fantasy content.  That is primarily why I
read news, to get some entertainment and relieve some stress (maybe why I flame
people quite a bit ;-P  Well, anyway, I guess I have to vote yes on such a group,
I appreciate the dragonlance series and would favor a place to discuss it.

				-Rob
repayne@mailbox.syr.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:44:44 GMT

With all the flap going on about the location of the manga group,
it seems useful to make some points about the recent experience
with rec.arts.comics.strips.  This experience proves that having
a 4-deep heirarchy is not a limit to popularity nor is it required
that there be significant overlap in readership between the parent
and child groups.

[[ By the way, during the discussion period for r.a.c.s there was some	]]
[[ talk of the name rec.arts.comic-strips for the group.  Some folks	]]
[[ claimed that readers of strips were not readers of comic books and	]]
[[ putting strips under r.a.c would drive away those readers.  So this	]]
[[ whole discussion looks very familiar -- although a bit more heated.	]]
[[	-- scs								]]

The location of strips under r.a.c has clearly not hindered it's
popularity.  On April 8, roughly 2 days after its creation, 234
articles arrive here for that group.  Of the 410 articles presently
in our spool, 199 different people posted from 146 different sites.
By comparison, on April 8 rec.arts.comics got 150 posts.  Clearly
the location under rec.arts.comics has not proven a bar to the
popularity of the group.

Locating manga under r.a.c will not inhibit participation because
of heirarchy depth. 


Ian Sinclair in <axolotl.702785999@syzygy> notes that there is no
overlap in postings between rec.arts.comics and alt.manga.  This is
true, but not significant.  Again, looks at r.a.c vs. r.a.c.strips
as an example.

Of the 410 articles in r.a.c.strips at the moment, only 18 were
crossposted to other groups.  Only one of those 18 was to
rec.arts.comics.strips.  The rest were to soc.culture.canada and
soc.culture.usa.  By contrast, 51 of 555 rec.arts.comics postings
were crossposted.  In order of popularity, those cross-posts are:

	14 talk.religion.misc
	14 rec.arts.sf.written
	 6 alt.tv.tiny-toon
	 6 alt.manga
	 5 rec.arts.anime
	 3 rec.arts.animation
	 3 alt.fan.suicide-squid
	 3 a.bsu.religion
	 2 rec.arts.comics.marketplace
	 1 rec.arts.disney
	 1 rec.arts.comics.strips
	 1 rec.arts.books
	 1 misc.forsale

Note the numbers add to more than 51 due to some posts going to more
than two groups.

This strongly indicates there is little overlap between the postings of
r.a.c.strips and r.a.comics, but reasonably active posting between
both groups and non-comics groups.  The lack of overlap in no way
impedes the popularity and use of rec.arts.comics.strips.
-- 
 "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and taste
  good with ketchup."  seen on a button, author unknown
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: friedman@junk.cis.ohio-state.edu (Mark "Crimson" Friedman)
Subject: rec.games.mud.* -> rec.mud.*
Organization: NAIVE - New And Improved Virtual Environment
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:21:45 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.014422@cunix4.prime.com> jasonp@cunix4.prime.com (Jason R. Pascucci) writes:
]1) Taking the 'Game' out of rgm: Change it to rec.mud...this has a few
]interesting features, one of which is the modifying the percieved
]notions about mudding, such that it is *only* a game, and not worth
]thinking about realistically, which, in fact, is just not true.

I've always dubbed MUDs as "virtual conference centers".  Their
ability to join far-away people together is incredible.  Faster than
e-mail, more populous than "[n]talk" programs, and with more style and
atmosphere than IRC.  Heck, you can even set up virtual
white/blackboards so everyone can brainstorm/plan together.

Then there's AI/NLP applications, finite-state automata, etc...

]It's recreation, but frequently not truely a game, in the
]conventional sense. <And, frequently, very much a game, in the
]conventional sense>

Someone (on r.g.m) also mentioned that the social aspects are very new
to the net and suggested that these aspects are the same ones that VR
will hit a few years down the road.  This is a glimpse into the
future, folks.  We may as well start forget about it as "only" a game:

	soc.mud?

Well, that's stretching it *quite* a bit, but you get the idea.  :-)

In article <1992Apr13.200458.20618@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> csteele@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Christopher E Steele) writes:
]I agree, the 'game' should be taken out.  And when taking it out,
]other groups should be formed to replace the old 'rec.{games}.mud'
]Plain and simple.  And I read a lot of other groups that have split
]with less traffic than rec.games.mud gets.

Traffic, yes, but it's the cultural aspect that should set it apart.
MUD's like, what, 3-4 years old, on the outside?  But it's already a
BIG THING (tm).  The phenomenon will continue into the future, finally
merging phone-chat lines and VR.  Ahhh, the dream...

						- Mark Friedman

[And don't give me any crap about MUD's irrelevance to VR.  The lines
are drawn very clear, although rather crudely...]
-- 
+----====>>>))) Mark Friedman is friedman@cis.ohio-state.edu (((<<<====----+
|   "There is nothing former   |   "If you put a hungry ferret in your     |
|      about King Crimson."    |      trousers, he'll run around..."       |
|    - Robert Fripp, 5/11/90   |               - Nigel Tufnel (Spinal Tap) |
From: roder@cco.caltech.edu (Brenda J. Roder)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Please put newsgroup name in subject line
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:25:43 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

Everybody:

Please remember that news.groups is rather high volume and a portion of it
at any time is probably not of interest to some of the people.  Including
the relevant current/proposed newsgroup name in your subject line is very
helpful.  'Split discussion' is not very descriptive when there are at 
least two splits currently being discussed (frp and misc.jobs).

Thank you.

-- 
-- Brenda (roder@cobalt.caltech.edu)
From: claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:30:52 GMT

Bob Snyder <rsnyder@fergie.dnet.ge.com> says:
>Proposed:
>rec.games.mud.tiny
>rec.games.mud.diku
>rec.games.mud.announce (moderated)

How about adding on the other suggestion:
rec.games.mud.social
-- 
VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE
---King Claudius---                                   claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 03:26:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.1nqjzdk
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

> I was trying to show how manga could be basically viewed as an
> equivalent to comics, therefore not truly requiring a subset status.  To
> me, its like saying "cars" are a subset of "autos".  Does denying that
> fact mean that one is denying that a car is an auto?  

Manga are not "equivalent to" comics, they are *a kind of* comics. To use
your analogy, you are insisting that a new newsgroup about Honda cars
should be called rec.hondas instead of rec.autos.honda.

Do you see where I'm getting the idea that you're claiming that manga
aren't comics?  And if they *are* comics, why don't they belong in the
rec.arts.comics hierarchy? 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

If Thurl Ravenskroft and James Earl Jones fought each other, who would win?
From: bn510@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Matthew L. High)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.*.manga straw poll voting time extended to the 15th.
Date: 11 Apr 92 22:24:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr11.222436.19817
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


NOTE:  DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ACCOUNT!  SEND ALL REPLIES TO:
  mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu.  (I am being forced to use this account
  because ucbvax is once again bouncing all Usenet email)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Butler mentions extending the voting time on the straw poll -
 
The first call for votes was sent out midday Saturday the 4th - and was
 sent to alt.manga, rec.arts.anime, and news.groups.  I have reason to
 believe it only made it to r.a.anime.  I resent that message on Tuesday
 the 7th, to alt.manga, r.a.anime, news.groups, and r.a.comics.  I know
 for certain that it made it to the first three, but haven't checked
 r.a.comics.  A third and final call for votes was sent out on the 9th,
 to the four aforementioned groups.  This call for votes made it to all
 four groups successfully.
 
If straw poll CFV #1 had been successful, I would have said that there
 was indeed enough time to respond.  But that wasn't the case.
 
Therefore, voting time has been extended to 12 noon CDT, April 15th.
 
Individual acks have been sent out to all respondents so far (122 in all).
A mass ack will appear tomorrow.
 
_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-\_.-
Aleph Null, net.spy!   |  Internet:  mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu
 aka Matthew High      |  Freenet:  bn510     Bitnet:  mhigh@trinity
28 days to go, urk!    |  Fido:  Matthew.High@1:387/255  GEnie:  M.HIGH
 (512) 737-4890        |  ErrAlert:  Help!  I've coded and I can't debug!
------"Can I get you anything doctor?"----------------------------------------
      "Yes.  I'd like a cup of hot fat and the head of Alfredo Garcia."
             - Fletch
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: crispin@csd.uwo.ca (Crispin Cowan)
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Western Ontario, London
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 04:35:16 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.215632.3457@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Interesting point. I wonder how easy it is to check for forged votes?

I once voted on whether Brad should be able to do commercial things with
the content of rec.humor.funny.  Presumably because it was a sensitive
subject, I subsequently got e-mail from Henry Spencer.  He seemed to be
doing a random sample check of the voters to verify that they had in
fact voted the intended way.  So there's your precident; get a
well-respected net-god to do your checking for you based on a sample.

Crispin
-----
Crispin Cowan, CS grad student, University of Western Ontario
Phyz-mail:  Middlesex College, MC28-C, N6A 5B7
E-mail:     crispin@csd.uwo.ca		Voice:  519-661-3342 
"If you want an operating system that is full of vitality and has a
great future, use OS/2."  --Andy Tanenbaum
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:40:28 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

>limkiong@vms2.iscs.nus.sg (Twas brillig, and the slithy toves...) writes:
>> This is highly unlikely to happen. Do you know how many people read that
>> group? Can you imagine the screams that will echo throughout the net if
>> this is proposed? 

>I know exactly how many people read it -- I've been reading it since
>before the Great Renaming, myself.  In general, r.a.c is a pretty
>levelheaded group of people.  We wouldn't have much trouble in getting
>r.a.c renamed to r.a.c.misc, considering the fact that the group already
>has two subgroups and is gearing up for another possible split at the
>moment.  Yes, there's be a handful of people who'd squeal about it
>simply for the sake of squealing.  If you let that problem deter you,
>you never get anything done on this net at all.

    I'm in complete agreement with Lazlo here. In fact I see a move to
r.a.c.misc to be in the very near future. And the creation of a new
group in the r.a.c.* hierarchy, especially one that is so well defined
as manga could actuially make the name change that muich more viable to
the regular readers of r.a.c. But none of this is going to mean a thing
until more people agree that r.a.c.manga is the appropriate name for the
group. 

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:31:34 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <axolotl.702785265@syzygy>, axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:
>hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
> >    This is a very true statement. But this is the way UseNet works.

>It's also the reason why Usenet remains a crude, inflexible email
>broadcasting network, where any sensible change has to be put through
>pointless bureaucracy, like this.

Usenet is just about as far from a bureaucracy as you can get on this planet,
and it is no surprise to me that such a fact can be lost on you.  You can't
tell a comic when you see one, how can we expect you to see what may be the
closest thing to a truly democratic institution yet devised?

You're getting an argument because people disagree with *your* definitions.
If you think you can change that, keep arguing, but if you do you risk
bringing in more people like me who *were* neutral but are now hostile to
your aims, especially when exposed to nonsense like your comment above.

Frankly, I'd just put this thing to a vote, and six months from now you can
try to create rec.arts.comics.manga, like you should be doing now.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: norbeck@mira.bucknell.edu (nancy norbeck `93)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:28:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: hydra.1284
Organization: Bucknell University, Lewisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Apr6.033013.15722@mel.dit.csiro.au> brian@mel.dit.csiro.au (Brian May) writes:
>
>In article <ymnj+0p@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>|> psc9q@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU (Paul Casey) writes:
>|> 
>|> > Changing the name to rec.music.media will keep the spirit of what
>|> > rec.music.cd was supposed to be and cut down on unwanted traffic. 
>|> 
>|> Maybe I'm just dim but I think rec.music.media makes it a lot *less*
>|> obvious what's supposed to be discussed there, not more.
>|> 
>Yep, it will open the door for people to talk endlessley about Rolling Stone
>articles, record reviewers, videos, radio stations/shows/etc ...ad infinitum.
>
>--
>|  Brian May, DIT, CSIRO,  |       Open Communications Project        |
>|723 Swanston st, Carlton, | TEL +61 3 282 2613 -- FAX +61 3 282 2600 |
>|   VIC 3053, Australia.   |     email Brian.May@mel.dit.csiro.au     |

I still think the problem lies not in the "cd" part of the name but in
the "music" p6rt.  Havingmusic in the name implies that the group
exists primarily to disucss music--from what I've seen this is not the
case at all.  The group exists (as far as I can tell) to discuss ONLY
that music which is exclusively on cd, (unrealistic as that is) and to
discuss technical things like CD players and other audio stuff that
has *nothing* at all to do with the actual *music*.  

If I were going to rename the group (which makes more sense than just
axing it) I'd start with the "music" part of it.


Nancy Norbeck


--
	"You'd think they'd dust this [food] before they serve it."
			--Hawkeye Pierce
		  "And remove all the flavor?"
			--Father Mulcahey
Date: 10 Apr 92 03:20:37 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
 >Not necessarily.  There are a lot of anime tv series as well, and some of
 >them are closely related to full-length theatrical or OAV features.  The
 >"anime"ness of the thing being discussed is more important than whether
 >it's a movie or a TV show, so they all end up in the same group.

(One could say the same about manga and comics, of course.)

 >Take a wander over into the altnet sometime for a *really good example* of
 >why some of us are willing to get down and dirty about keeping the names
 >and classifications of new newsgroups here in the mainstream Usenet as
 >clear and specific as possible.

I know everyone here has good intentions.  I do too, you know!  But
as an aside, the worst thing that can happen in alt* with regard to
naming is that the group becomes empty.  That's hardly a big problem.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 22:20:42 GMT

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>But either group will probably refer you to the other. This probably means
>that both groups don't feel they overlap enough.  Therefore the
>working definition of animation tends not to include anime, therefore
>making it more of a western animation forum. 
>I think a similar situation exists with manga vs comics.

Animation includes anime.  However, when there is a specific group for
a subset, that's the one you use when discussing that subset.
Ducktales doesn't fall under anime, so you don't ask about it in
anime.  However if you have a question on Kimagure Orange Road, you
ask for it on the group that deals with anime specifically, even
though it is a subset of animation. If I want to ask a question about
an Amiga, which is a computer system, I don't ask it under comp.sys,
but under comp.sys.amiga.*.

Manga are comics, and what you're advocating is a specific group for
manga.  I wouldn't be adverse to a rec.arts.comics.books to take care
of what's in rec.arts.comics at the moments, but that's another group.
-- 
Never appeal to a man's "better nature".  He may not have one. -- LL
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga: Replies to Iain Sinclair
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:28:36 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <-_tjg!+@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

Lazlo (and others): Iain Sinclair simply isn't going to listen, doesn't care
about anything but his own petty prejudice against comics, and isn't going to
be convinced.  Let him spout, then vote him down.  He's making enough enemies
for any three normal people, he'll sink his own newsgroup without any help from
anyone else.  Stop trying to stop him from hurting himself.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".