From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Self Regulating Populations
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 04:51:21 GMT

In <Bu8BDo.4KI@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson):
>Anyway, the 
>ds> evidence has been shown already, and can be supplimented by any 
>ds> hunter who sees a deer bolt and turn at one mile into the wind.  

>Translated roughly, "post hoc ergo propter hoc" means "after 
>this, therefore because of this". 

>Do you have any critical evidence to demonstrate your claim that
>the aforementioned deer ran away because of Dan Sorenson's visual
>appearance, as opposed to some other phenomenon?

	In the Iowa afternoons 50 miles from anywhere, there is a
very notable lack of other phenomenon.  The deer had been standing
there for at least ten or fifteen minutes, happily munching on the
grass at the edge of the treeline, whilst I happily disked up a
storm right in front of them.  They ignored the tractor, and I do
throttle down, downshift, and have even come to an idle while waiting
for the disk to rise before starting my turn.  If the growl of the
motor, transmission, and the whine of the hydraulics didn't scare
them, can you think of another reason for them to bolt once I left the
cab at a mile distance?  The tractor had been stopped and idling for
about fifteen seconds while I undid my seat belt, fiddled with the
controls, and got a drink of water.  My emergence from the cab is the
only real event that happened.  Furthermore, this same behavior has
been noted by myself and others among other animals too.  When the
behavior is this consistent in a non-laboratory environment, it
doesn't need to have all factors removed before we can see that this
behavior is quite common and likely the rule.  Lab results work in
a lab, but field results work in the field.

>ds> Loan me a copy of the book.  Like I said, it's been nearly a
>ds> decade since I read that book, and I may have been inaccurrate in the
>ds> quote.  However, I think that Mowat did come to this conclusion by
>ds> taking into account the number of eskimo and the number of wolves and
>ds> factoring the meat requirements of each.  

>One of Mowat's major discoveries was that the wolves he observed 
>were apparently feeding on mice, not caribou.  Quiz: How many 
>caribou death's did Mowat attribute to wolves by the conclusion 
>of his study?  

	Now I have *another* book to read this semester!  Grrr...  I
remember Mowat watching the wolves pouncing on the mice.  Note that
this alternative food source also served to reduce the carribou count
the wolves would kill and eat, but the eskimo's did not use it.  In
any event, this is entirely irrellevant to the claims I've made above.
If you can find a passage that shows deer being entirely unconcerned,
not even getting up, as a wolf passes by due to the smaller size of the
wolf, then you'll have something.  Until then, this is all a great game
of "Dueling Word Processors" for both of us, but off the subject.

>ds> ... If deer can spot me at a mile, it is clear that they can see 
>ds> that far.  

>You haven't established that deer can spot you at a mile, Dan.

	While the evidence is not enough to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt, we aren't serving on a jury here, Russ.  The evidence is quite
compelling and available from many hunters.  I'd actually find it
easier to believe that you are actually an automation running at WPG
than believe those deer were spooked by something besides myself, and
that likewise raccoon, possum, coyote, and fox all spook at my
presence but not in sight of the tractor.  Like I said, this isn't
a laboratory where we can remove all factors we don't want, but the
evidence is still quite compelling.
  
>The assumption that they ran because they had identified the 
>presence of a human seems unfounded to me.

	How often does the same set of circumstances have to happen
before an assumption is founded, and when can that assumption be
called a theory, a hypothesis, and a fact?  You've hunted before, I
seem to recall.  Did you notice any of these traits in your prey?
Hunt with a camera and let us know how far off the deer spook from
you.  It will be interesting to see what they do if you remain in the
open and not stealthy in any way.

	Personal Note: just got the v32bis/v42bis modem installed,
and it's really nice!  I'll be reading more of this group now.  I
also failed to get a deer permit this year.  Thus, I'll be hunting
tresspassers again, but expect a few notes on the behavior of the
deer.  Do you have any particular traits you'd like me to look for
as I hunt the Fat-Bellied Stogie Sucker this autumn?

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >