From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: CHRISTIANITY vs CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS
Summary: Let's put an end to the misinformation, okay?  (Specifics too)
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:50:19 GMT
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario

John Muehlhausen has written quite a bit about Mormon beliefs lately.
The root of all this seems to be his desire to "disprove" Mormonism,
to show that it is false and non-Christian.  I don't know why he's so
interested in doing this, but most of what he has said has been 
misinformation that either he or someone else (from whom he got the
information) twisted to their own, seemingly hateful, ends.  So much
for religious tolerance.

In general I don't think that answering false charges does much good
("have you stopped beating your wife?"), but because so much of what 
John has written is completely and utterly wrong, and on the off chance 
that someone might actually be affected by what he has written, I'm going
to reply to his specific charges.  I hope, John, that you will have the
good graces to read and respond to what I say here.

> ... Concepts will be presented which are simply not in the book of
> Mormon.

This is a familiar theme for John, but it has no significance.  Mormons
believe in continuing revelation, so it is no surprise that God has 
revealed things to us that were not revealed to (or not recorded by)
earlier Saints.

> My only objective is to show that Mormons are not Christian, and one must
> decide between the two.

Why is this so important?  And why are you not willing to take Mormons
at their word that they are Christian?  Who are *you* to say what is 
and what is not Christian belief?

> Mormon information:
>    Radio program with Chuck and Dolly Sacket (sp?):
>       Chuck active Mormon for 10 years with 9 consecutive Temple recommends:
>          Veil worker in an LA Temple, worked in four different Temples
>          150+ endowments, 250+ baptisms for the dead, and 1000+ Temple 
>           ordinances "under his belt"
>       Dolly:
>          Genealogical research and participation in Temple ceremonies

Have either of these people's credentials been established?  How do we
know that they are not just acting out their bitterness?  From the 
information they seem to have supplied (given what John has said below)
they could not *possibly*  be who they say they are.

>       Members of "Ex-Mormons for Jesus"
>       Information is 2 years old
>       All 24 members of immediate family (four generations) left the Church
>        of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints independently
>    Personal conversations with fellow employees

I notice a distinct lack of "pro" information sources here.  Why have
you not read any LDS-Church publications to see what they say?

> Concept of God
> --------------
> 
> My best understanding of Mormonism is that they believe God was once as we
> are now, 

This is a common, but by no means universal belief.  I, for example, 
count myself as an agnostic on this issue (I should probably mention
that I am a long-time member in good standing).  This is a peripheral
quasi-doctrine, not a central tenet of the church.  

> and still has a bodily form which is limited to being in only
> one place at one time.  

This is a suppostion that is in no way supported by LDS doctrine.

> He lives in a physical reality just like us on a
> planet whose name is close to the pronunciation "kolab" (from radio).

This is an unwarrented extension of a single verse in LDS scripture,
and is basically the analogue of LDS mysticism.  Again, John's statement
is not LDS doctrine.

> He does not dwell in the heart of the believer, nor is He with him at all
> times.  

We believe that the Holy Spirit (third member of the Godhead) can be with 
you at all times.

> He can only be responsible for the creation of the earth, as His
> existence is limited by time and space, which excludes these from His
> creation. 

This is simply not true.  This is, apparently, a wild extension of LDS
doctrine but bears no similarity to it (like saying that Catholics 
teach cannibalism because of their beliefs surrounding the eucharist).

> (So how did they come to be?)  He has a wife which he has kept
> hidden from us, who once was his wife in a "lone and dreary world" such as
> our own.  He rose to His position by being a good believer on the world
> where He came from under His "God".  

We have no revealed information about God's wife, if any.  Many Mormons
believe that God was once a man and became an exalted beings, but others
don't.  I don't think I do, but like I said, after much prayer and
consideration, I'm an agnostic on the issue.

> This presents the problem of original creator.  

If this view of the procession of Gods is correct, there *is* no
original.  It has always been going on.  I don't understand it either.

> This cycle is limited by the fact that we know our universe had
> a beginning.  What God did that?  

Our God.  Again, if this idea is correct, then each God would be the
Creator of their own Universe.  None of this is LDS doctrine, however.

> Because of His nature he does not have a personal relationship with 
> each of us.

On the contrary, we believe that we each can and should have a deeply
personal relationship with God.  

> The Christian God is everywhere and everywhen and knows all that
> ever was, is, or will be.  

Can you demonstrate each of those points from the Bible?  Or are you
getting your wisdom from some other source?

> In fact He always was and always will be.
> His creation is our reality, complete with space, time, and all that we
> know or imagine.  He is a loving God who desires a personal relationship with
> each person he has created in His image (and in image only).

This is what I, as a latter-day Saint, believe, and what LDS doctrine
teaches.

> Concept of Jesus
> ----------------
> 
> I am still confused as to who Jesus is in the Mormon faith.  A couple of
> things are certain though: Jehovah (same person as Jesus?) was with God
> during the creation, and he is definitely not the same person as God.
> He is not responsible for our salvation.

Jehovah is, in LDS theology, the name of the pre-mortal Jesus.  Jesus is
the author of our salvation; it is by him that our sins are atoned for,
and through him and his sacrifice that we are saved.  Clear?

> Concept of the Holy Spirit
> --------------------------
> 
> The "Holy Ghost" is something that the Mormon receives in the Temple, but
> how he/it fits in with the rest of Mormonism is unclear to me.

That's just silly.  The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead.
We believe that God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate
beings but are all God, perfectly united in purpose and action.

We believe that the Holy Ghost is able to prompt people as they are
willing to be prompted, no matter what their situation in life.  After
someone is baptised in our church, they are given the gift of the Holy
Ghost, which is the ability to have the constant companionship of God
in your life.  This has nothing to do with the temple (check your sources!).

> Concept of Heaven
> -----------------
> 
> There are different levels of heaven in Mormonism.  Someone who rejects
> Mormonism goes to "spirit jail", and only Mormons get to where God is
> (wherever that is).  

No, that's wrong.  Briefly:  We believe in three degrees of glory. 
The best is where God is; only the faithful in Christ will desire to 
be there.  The next is one step removed, and basically "good" people
will desire to be there.  The next is even more removed, and contains
the dregs of this world.  Then there is "outer darkness", which is 
where Satan and his followers reside.  
  Prior to resurrection and judgement, however, the dead stay in 
paradise or prison, depending on their belief in Christ (these are
the paradise that Christ spoke of on the cross, and the prison that
Peter spoke of).
  I'm not doing this justice, as there is much more to this belief; 
I can go over it in more detail later if there's interest, or ask any 
Mormon missionary about the Plan of Salvation.  They'll give this to 
you in detail, and be polite if you say you don't want to see any more.

> Concept of Hell
> ---------------
> 
> In Mormonism, Satan and his minions reside in Hell.  No people go to hell
> unless they screw up bad in heaven (some say that Satan worshipers go to
> hell - or were demons to start with).

Again, John, you've demonstrated a most shallow understanding of LDS
theology.

We believe that Lucifer was one of the "best and the brightest" spirits,
but that he rebelled from God and led away 1/3 of the children of God.
He is typically now known as Satan ("enemy" to God) and the spirits that
followed him are his "demons" (though demonology is almost unknown in
LDS circles).  The only people who end up with Satan are those who 
sin against the Holy Ghost, which is semi-defined as having had the
witness of the Holy Ghost, knowning that God lives, and then turning
against that knowledge and actively working against God.  We are taught
that very few people will find themselves in this category.

> The Christian Hell is merely a separation from God.  

Can you demonstrate this from the Bible?  I don't think so.

> Concept of Creation
> -------------------
> [Temple ceremony excerpt omitted.]

I'm not going to discuss the temple ceremony here, because I hold
it sacred.  Even though nothing you have said (thus far) is something
that I feel terribly secretive about, I feel personally that I would
be vulgarizing that which I hold to be holy.  I hope you can respect
my feelings in this matter.

I will say, however, that your information is incomplete and twisted,
and in some places simply incorrect.  Perhaps I shouldn't say anything
at all about this, but I don't want you or anyone else to think that
you have it right.

> The major consequence of this is that the Christian God is portrayed as
> incomprehensible and therefore ridiculous.

This is not true.  God --the Christian God-- is portrayed as a loving
and righteous father who sent his son as a sacrifice for our sins.

> For the Christian account read the first part of Genesis.

The creation aspect of the temple ceremony is a superset of the 
Genesis account.  For those interested, see the books of Moses and
Abraham in LDS scriptures.

> Concept of Salvation(s)
> -----------------------
> 
> Mormons are saved by being good Mormons.  

No, that's wrong (would you like to hear me say it again?).  Anyone 
can be saved by having a living, active faith in Jesus Christ.  Mormons 
tend to focus more on living righteously than do some other Christian 
groups because we do not believe that a simple confession of faith is 
enough for salvation.  In addition, in the NT we are told many times 
that we will all be judged based on what we do, whether or not we have 
faith in Christ.  See for example the entire book of James, and sections
such as 1 Cor 2:10-15.

> There is no guarantee that a 
> Mormon will get into highest heaven, but the good ones will.  It is
> necessary to go through the Temple ceremonies in order to get ones
> secret name and the incantation to be let into highest heaven, 

Again, I'm not going to profane what I consider holy by dissecting it
here with you.  However, I will say that I am offended by your use of
the culturally-charged term "incantation."  We do not know the eternal
significance of all of what we are taught in the temple, but it is not
correct (and is at least insensitive) to try to cast this in the same
light as some sort of spell or incantation.


> Mormons must
> also act as savior to the dead in order to receive salvation. 

Incorrect.  We believe that all those who have lived without the
chance to accept Christ will have chance to do so in the spirit 
prison (spoken of earlier), but that, for reasons known only to God,
the physical ordinances such as baptism must be done for them.  We
do these solely as a service to those who have died and may be able 
to gain eternal joy from them.

> An interesting note is that millions and millions of ceremonies are
> performed for the dead, costing mega-bucks, while not nearly as much effort
> is put into saving the living.  

Please, substantiate this claim.  Be sure to take into account the 
world-wide missions, humanitarian efforts, spiritual counseling, 
volunteer service, etc.  Your assertion is entirely spurious.

> It boils down to being saved by works. Jesus is not in the picture.  

This is simply not true.  The *first* and most abiding principle 
of membership in our church is "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."  
We believe that we must be anxiously engaged in good works as an 
expression of that faith, but that without it, all the good works 
in the world won't help you.  Clear?

> BTW, tracing genealogies is specifically discouraged in the Bible.

Really?  Where?

> The baptisms for the dead are performed in a font supported by 12 lifesize 
> oxen which is very beautiful.  Two witnesses, the baptizer, and the patron
> being baptized are present.  A Temple does between 100-200 baptisms per
> hour.   Spirit encounters are often reported at the baptism of the dead,
> but these may be conditioned responses or, more likely, familiar spirits as
> warned against in Isaiah.  

Hold on a minute!  Who are *you* to say what other people experience?
First, spiritual experiences bear *no* similarity to "conditioned responses."
Second, I consider it nothing but mud-slinging of theworst sort to insinuate 
a presumed connection between the uplifting spiritual experiences of others 
and demonic familiar spirits.  If you can substantiate your assertion, 
please do.  Otherwise, please retract it.

> The whole Mormon experience is just that: an
> experience.  Truths are known by experience and the followers are not
> to question anything.  

This last sentence makes no sense.  We believe that we can know the truth
of things for ourselves by our direct experience, as revealed by the
Holy Ghost.  We question plenty, but rely fundamentally on God to lead
us to the truth.  Would you suggest another route to the truth?


I've omitted more of what you wrote on the temple ceremonies.  I will
not comment on these other than to say that your account is a twisted,
incomplete, and in some cases simply incorrect one.  

> ...
> So much for anyone revealing the secret signs!  There was a time in early
> Mormonism where these punishments were actually carried out.

This is not true.  Please substantiate this serious charge, or retract it.  

> Christians are saved by accepting Jesus Christ, the son of God, as Savior
> and Lord of their lives.  One must realize that all have sinned and fall 
> short of the glory of God, and need his free gift of salvation.  If one
> truly accepts this simple fact then they will receive the Holy Spirit, and
> their life will be characterized by the Fruit of the Spirit because Jesus
> _is_ Lord of their life.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here.

> 
> Books
> -----
> 
> The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith from reformed Egyptian
> plates written by Mormon (and communicated by Moroni?).  Do these plates
> still exist, or were they conveniently destroyed.  

We are told they were taken back to God by Moroni.  Convenient, true,
but also a way of keeping them from being profaned.  You can read in
the preface to the Book of Mormon the accounts of those who saw and
handled the plates.

> Could the
> Book of Mormon have been inspired, but by the wrong side?  

I wondered about this for a long time before I joined the Church.
The only thing I can say is that the book testifies of Christ even
more clearly than does the Bible, so it is not from "the wrong side"
(remember Christ's statement in similar circumstances was that a house 
divided against itself cannot stand).

> Simply put, there is much more behind the Bible than any other historical
> writing as far as credibility is concerned.  

Pardon?  You must not know very much about how the Bible came to be in
its present form, nor about the competing translations for the copies
of copies of copies of the original documents that we are now forced
to deal with.

> We can be sure that we have
> at least a _very_ close translation of the original scriptures.  The
> Christian God is capable of preserving His word...

The historical veracity is a very different topic that has little to
do with your desire to show that Mormonism is not Christian.

> Hope this gets some good discussion going!

I'll say it one more time, for the sake of this discussion:  We 
believe that salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ,
that Jesus Christ is God, and that if we follow him we can return
to live with him.  Is this not Christian?  

In addition, much of what you have said above is clearly based on 
ignorance tinged with malice (not necessarily yours), and in no way 
presents a clear and accurate picture of LDS theology.  I encourage
you to read some of what the LDS church has to say for itself,
rather than swallowing only what is said by its detractors.
		
> John M.

--
                    Mike Sellers       mike@isgtec.com
                        User Interface Team Leader
                    ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
            "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc