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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:31:29 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Alleged Overpoulation (was Re: let's rephrase the question)
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:23:00 EDT <GRACZ1@ITHACA> said:

>    Actually, the problem for now is distribution of the resources, but
>  by most accounts, the world poputlation, if it grows at the present rate,
>   will exceed our resources (which, of course, are decreasing as they are
>  used) early in the next century.

And you know just the socio-political systems to rectify this?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:22:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...

From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...

>Why not?  We're going to force the Nazi store owner to buy from a
>Jewish supplier.  Why aren't we going to force the Jewish store owner
>to buy from the Nazi supplier?  Why do consumers get exempted?
>
>        we are?  i'm not forcing the nazi to buy stuff from jews
>        if he doesn't want to.  what are you talking about?

Sure we are.  Remember the "political beliefs shouldn't be considered
when jobs are concerned."  The "suppliers" were providing labor....

        ah, labor... i suppose in this culture we have to look at
        the use of another person's body as a commodity.

If we're serious about this, the Nazi store owner must hire Jewish
workers, and the Jewish store owner must hire Nazi workers.

>        sort of law that forces people to buy items from stores
>        owned by people we don't like?

They are now.  I'm asking why they're any different.  EVERY argument
for coercing store owners also applies to coercing consumers.

>        so there's this guy, owns a widget shoppe.  i don't need a
>        widget, so i never go there.  so one day he hangs a swastika
>        in the window, so i now HAVE to buy a widget: its the law.

No, you're a widget buyer, so you have to buy from both the Nazi and
the Jew, and that doesn't change if you're a Nazi or a Jew.

        ok.  i'm a widget buyer.  in my area there is a nazi widget
        supplier and a jewish widget supplier.  i can 1) buy from both,
        2) buy from the nazi because i don't like jews, 3) buy from the
        jew because i dont' like nazis, 4) seek out an out of state
        widget supplier because i don't like either of them, or 5)
        decide that widgets are a corrupt industry and go into politics
        instead.

        please explain to me how the arguments for coercing store owners
        also apply to consumers.  i really haven't followed your logic
        here.

        brni
-andy
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:48:20 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: KAT is bad if and only if Jimbo is harmful
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:28:15 EDT Tim Johnson said:
>>(Isn't it peculiar that MacPhil corrected "doggy dog" but not
>>"for all intensive purposes"? What may we properly conclude?)
>
>  /c intensive correction /p erat nyt x-word /c ink, et al.
>                           -MacTim

That reminds me...I've haven't been doing the xwords lately...need to
start doing that again.

Thanks tj!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
From: 92price@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: The War Between the Jasons
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:58:05 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Travis Kidd writes:
> I don't think that the 14th Amendment or any other Amendment ever
> was meant to preclude the state from keeping a moral society.  To
> most Americans (don't let the pink triangle fool you), homosexuality
> is grossly immoral--you can hear it from Jerry Falwell, or you can

Of course the repulsion is a learned response (from ignorant hate-mongering
bigots) to not being able to deal with the latent homosexual aspects of one's 
sexuality, and can be unlearned simply through compassion and by making an
effort to deal with your _own_ problem (the repulsion) instead of blaming other
people for it.  

> read it on the bathroom wall.

Oh, truly the holiest tome of wisdom (usually inscribed upon by the wise saints
who miss the bowl and don't flush).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Racist, sexist, anti-gay--born-again bigots, go away!     |    Kai Alexis Price
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:58:44 EDT
From:         Janet Perry <JPERRY@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: what to do in a world that trivializes intelligence
              14 Sep 1992 14:47:47 EST from <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUP UI.EDU>

Private schools can be good, bad, indifferent.  They can very well be a
solution for a family.  So can teaching at home.  What I object to is the
elite-ism that is promoted by (some) private schools.  One of the most
educational aspects of public schools is for the child to find out that
not everyone is the same (same skin-color, same race, same religion, same
value placed on various aspects of our culture).  Diversity is NOT bad!  In
most cases diversity is good--see discussions on biological diversity.  We
grow when we have differences to reconcile.  Schools can be a place where
the reconciliation can take place.
But...
the parents who send their children to public or private school can not
abdicate their responsibility for raising said child.
The school is only a tool which can transfer knowledge, (whole knowledge
not just the part that is favored), it is not a replacement for the
whole socialization process.
--Janet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:36:20 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: God's Country

JB:

I didn't say you said that.  I am only commenting on the ridiculous
connection you are trying to make.  Would it help any, or change your
mind about the tone of the speech, if someone dragged up a speech
by Kennedy or Roosevelt or Lincoln (or, gasp! TRUMAN) that contained
similar comments on the degraded nature of the populace and the need
to stabilize the culture?

I don't think Pat Buchanan believes in Z.O.G.  I don't think Pat
Buchanan advocates assassination of radio talk show hosts (even those
who are as controversial, abrasive, and deliberately provacative as
Alan Berg was).  And I don't think the comparison is fair.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:16:18 -0400
From:         Rick George <RIGEORGE@VASSAR.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: private education

While it is interesting to note differences in expenditures between
public and private schools, it is a mistake, I think, to make too
much of them.  Private schools, by virtue of their ability to select
their students, are able to be much more efficient in their operations
than public schools are.  Most of the private schools I know of are
focussed on college prep curricula, whereas comprehensive public
districts must attempt to accomodate all who fall within their
boundries, with educational paths running the gamut from remedial to
vocational to college prep.  Some of these programs are very expensive
to run and drive up their overall cost of providing education.  Private
schools simply can not admit students who they cannot (or do not want
to) educate.  Public schools don't have that option.

I like the idea of privatizing schools, but I have trouble imagining
the idea functioning.  Perhaps someone who knows more about this than
I do can explain things to me.  For instance, I would guess that these
private schools would (by deisgn or circumstance) would specialize in
certain things (some might be college prep, some might be vocational, etc.).
One fear I have is that children would get sent to the wrong school.
When you're talking about young kids, it is hard to recover from a
bad choice like that.  Similarly, I like the idea of schools having
some compeition, but I worry about how accurate information would be
presented to parents to allow them to make informed decisions.  And
what would happen if a mismanaged school went out of business mid-year?
I am not trying to be argumentative by asking these questions.  Do
propoents of more privatization know of proposals that spell out more
details?

...Rick
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 12:59:34 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: response to Brni

>>>    So they can't throw you in jail, but they can make sure you
>>>  starve to death for your beliefs.
>>
>>Really?  If I don't get the job at Sun, I'm going to starve?  I can't
>>accept the offers from SGI, HAL, IBM, McDonald's, etc?
>>
>>How is Sun going to keep me from working somewhere else?
>>
>>How many people really have only one possible employer?
>>
>>When is the last time someone starved because an employer didn't like
>>their beliefs?  (I can point to hundreds of thousands of people jailed
>>because "society" decided to lock them up.)
>
>     Well, lets see.... we have all sorts of people blackballed
>  during the MacCarthy era.

Considering that was GOVT action, you don't want to bring that up.

>  On top of that, of course, there's the
>  fact that jobs at, say, IBM and McDonalds are hardly comparable.

It depends on the job, now doesn't it.  I suspect that being a janitor
at one is a lot like being a janitor at the other; I know that being a
programmer at one is a lot like being a programmer at the other.

>  And, of course, there's one less employer recommendation you'll
>  be able to count on when applying for future jobs.

You mean I'm supposed to get recommendations from places that didn't
hire me?

-andy
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 13:09:44 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...

>myself personally hold - NOBODY should be discriminated against for whatever
>reason, regardless of "sex, ethnic group, religion, political persuasion, or
>sexual preference" (my emphasis).

I like such absolutes; they're usually not true.

I know a lot of people who think that they believe the above and act
according to that belief.  Ignoring the ones who are boycotting Coors
and table grapes for political reasons, who haven't figured out the
inconsistency that implies, I ask others if they'd shop at a hardware
store I knew of; it was run by an American Nazi.  It's amazing how
many of them think that they should discriminate.

If you force the Nazi to deal with people he doesn't like, you have to
force other people to deal with the Nazi.

-andy
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:36:55 BST
From:         Dunstan_Vavasour <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: rest rooms
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

Linda:
>small business oriented places (w/few or no patrons who use premises) would
 have
>a common bathroom.

Wow, you must have enlightened employers. Over here we have to bath at
home before going to work. The other business we tend to do into
lavatories.

Dunstan - you say potatoe ...
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 15:07:01 BST
From:         Dunstan_Vavasour <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Youthful punks
Comments: To: POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU

MacPhil:
>On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:13:19 GMT GARY PHILIP NEWHART said:
>>Guess you haven't been to germany lately; Inflation is running at greater than
>>2%
>
>Sorry, I went back and reread the article.  Currently @ 5% and that's only
>because of accepting E. Germany into the fold.  Until then, it'd been a
>solid 2% for along time.  Also, interest rates are @ 9.8% there, one of
>their highest rates in history.  The article in yesterday's Trib said
>also the strength of the d mark is threatening the EMS efforts...

Yeah, what's happened is that loads of currency is fleeing from the
dollar, and is being put into the DM. The DM is consequently under
upward pressure in the ERM. So in some ways the trouble in the ERM is
a result of the sick dollar.

Dunstan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:18:55 CDT
From:         fred <CCHILDER@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      welfare for the wealthy

Did anybody catch george's speech in Detroit yesterday? Sounded a lot
like the pep rallies they used to force us to attend in high school.
The thing that stuck out the most for me was the lack of sustained
applause that is so apparant in the more orchestrated sessions.

Does everyone remember what george's favorite snack food is? Pork rinds!
The king of pork is handing out money right and left to the people who
need it the least and disguising it as reform. A 1% tax break is quite
meaningless to anyone with less than a six figure income. If you make
20k and pay 5k in taxes, this plan will save you a whopping fifty bucks
a year. If you make over a million and pay more than 100k in taxes, it
will save you 1000 or more per year. Who is getting a break here?

For those of you complaining about media treatment of bush, a wall street
expert was commenting on bush's proposal. He said that it was the same
old stuff in a new package. The woman anchor (sorry, can't remember his
name or hers) had only one comment: "Is it true that you have been offered
a cabinet post in the clinton administration?" She didn't comment on any
of the man's points concerning the speech.

Macphil, I still think the bucks for school choice is welfare for the rich.
If you can't afford to send your kids to private schools, 1k will not make
any difference. If bush passes perks for the upper class, guess who will be
paying the bill?

The "no new taxes" is actually a 2-part statement with the initial quote
being true for the upper class and "know new taxes" for the rest of us.

fred
vote early, vote often.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:00:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: RE:Re:Bosnia Conflict

When asked if the Gurkhas (thanks for spelling) were not mercenaries the
head of the company said, of course not, they will be unarmed.  I guess
the term should be sitting ducks then rather than mercenaries.

They do have quite the reputation for getting the job done, though, so
I guess if anybody can handle it they can.

                                   Chris Morrison
                                   CMorriso@snyescva.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 14:13:51 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rights, and other comments ...
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Sat, 5 Sep 1992 11:22:00 EDT <GRACZ1@ITHACA> said:
>>Rights, rights, rights.  What about responsibilities?  Since we have
>>a Bill of Rights, what about a Bill of Responsibilites?  We continually
>>hear everyone who can get airtime scream about their "rights being
>>violated" but we see little about those same people assuring us they
>>themselves are "responsible citizens" in return.
>>
>>So what should be in a Bill of Responsibilities?
>>
>
>    A Bill of Responsibilities is an interesting concept.  But, of
>  course, that could actually be in diametric opposition to the Bill
>  of Rights and the nature of (what I see as) democratic government.
>  Not that a law stating "Every citizen has the responsibility to
>  vote" would be a bad idea...

Hence my request for what should be *in* it, not what would be a bad
example of inclusion.  I presumed this was clear.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 22:30:00 EDT
From:         the valley of the fuzz-tone guitar <SWEDE@DRYCAS.BITNET>
Subject:      east lansing no longer center of the universe; millions weep

Hmph.  It seems likely now that Bush won't be attending the Sept. 22nd
debate that was to be held at MSU.  Seems he doesn't like the format,
and thinks there's too many debates scheduled, anyway.  There is a chance
the debate may be rescheduled, and it still may be held at MSU, but from
what local Republicans have been saying, it's not likely.

To borrow Andy's succinct phrase, "oops".  What will voters think, as they
see George ducking out of the first debate?  It sends a negative image to
the public, as if to say George is afraid he'll get whalloped in the debate
(which I'm sure is not the case, but the image persists).

Bush's woes seem to be mounting of late.  The recent figures on who's
below the federally defined poverty line show an increase of 2.7 million
people.  While these statistics may be suspect, WRT what they actually say
about the state of the poor in this country, this news cannot bode well for
Bush.  Moreover, his refusal to give specifics on how he'll cut the budget
gives wide openings for Clinton to warn of the worst.  Plus, today's
CNN/Gallup/USA Today/etc/etc poll finds Clinton with a 15 point lead
(54%-39%), suggesting that Bush has lost his bounce.

Dennis Miller had a comment on Letterman's show last night, about how crowds
at Bush's appearances were singing "na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey,
goodbye...."  I have to wonder if this joke is all that far from the truth.
Certainly, Bush seems to be out-blundering Clinton lately, and economic
bad news seems to be pouring in by the gallon.  Who needs a liberal media
bias?  Bush seems to be self-destructing just fine on his own.

I was looking forward to schmoozing with Bryant Gumbel, too.  Poo.

Gary W. Olson               "That's tonight's 'Unsolved Mysteries.' Next
SWEDE@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU week we'll present wildly inconclusive evidence
60 days and counting down... on the Amelia Earhart disappearance, U.F.O.'s
                             and God. Be there!"-Evan Dorkin's "Milk & Cheese"
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:02:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject: re: real solutions for real problems

I was supposed to pay $5,000 to get invited to lunch with Bush, and that was
just to get on to the grandly-named committee that had the lunches, the
cost of the lunches was extra.

Chris Morrisom
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:12:00 EDT
From:         GRACZ1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

>No, that $0.64 contributes to a small fraction of the art in my
>community.  Even for the art it helps support, it's a small fraction
>of the support.  If the patrons don't value it enough to make up the
>difference , why should anyone else?
>
>NEA spending on art is a small fraction of total spending on art.  People
>who think otherwise don't have much appreciation for art.


     Do you know what the fraction is?  Even if it is small, it is very
  important -- it really does help provide services for the community.
  For example, I doubt a museum in my home town would be able to have
  free admission on Tuesdays if it weren't for its government funding.

>-andy

G. Racz
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:10:40 -0500
From:         MARTIN FOX <FOXML@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: French & EC

  Why are you (or ya'll in the vernacular) against EC?  Unity of economy etc.
could lead to greater unity throughout world.  (Excuse my Utopian sendtiments.)
And thus to decrease in war and general misery in world...

-Martin
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:25:05 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: God's Country

>JB:

>Oh, right.  So now Pat Buchanan killed Alan Berg.  Cool.

Missy:

You know very well that I did not say that.  I only said
that the spirit and the attitude is the same.

I note that you aren't offering any substantive disagreements
with what I said, but merely trying to make me sound like I
said something I didn't.

j.b.
>--Missy P 2 B
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