HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: v121mhb5@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (D.O.G. of S.A.R.P.A.)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Net.rpg: How many of you have seen Ars Magica?
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:24:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Greetings:

	While I'm not involved with the whole Net.Rpg discussion, nor
do I really have the time to be, I'd just like to recommend White Wolf's
Ars Magica (3rd edition) as being a real compendium of ideas for what the
next generation role-playing game should contain.

	Some facts about Ars Magica:
	* Characteristics and are described with zero being average,
	  with plusses or minuses being directly added to a single
	  d10 roll to determine success.  THe progression is
	  somewhat logarithmic, since +5 is considered a "mythic char-
	  acteristic."
	* Options exist for both rolling your characteristics and for
 	  choosing them.
	* 8 characteristics, in four pairings.  Intelligence/Perception,
	  Strength/Stamina, Communication/Presence, Dexterity/Quickness.
	  These are still considered 8 seperate attributes.
	* Skills are rated from 1 on up, there's a sort of geometric
	  progression regarding the experience point cost for each
	  additional level of skill.  Skill levels are coupled with
 	  attributes to resolve most actions. (Ex: Perception plus
	  Scan ability equals bonus to a d10 roll to spot something).
	* Combat runs smoothly, but with just enough complexity.  You
	  make an attack roll vs. a defense total, then you make a
	  damage roll vs. a soak total (armor, stamina) to determine
	  damage, expressed in a number of body levels lost.  Bigger
	  creatures have more body levels.  Locations are not specified,
	  criticals are more or less assigned by the GM.
	* The magic system is, in my opinion, quite exceptional.  It's the
	  showpiece of the system, though not really generalizable to
	  other genres.  I won't waste bandwidth describing it.
	* Role-playing is stressed, and all characters take virtues, flaws,
	  and personality traits in order to become more unique.

	The reason why I'm posting this is just that I found SO MANY of the
things I always wanted to see in a fantasy game in this system.  You might
say I'm something of a zealous convert, and maybe this belongs on rec.games.
frp.advocacy.  However, I hate to read this group and watch you guys try
to re-invent the wheel.  I feel this game makes an excellent resource for 
folks looking to design an rpg, and you might find that several of the 
mechanics that you're trying to work out have already been described 
somewhere else.
	I hope my recommendation is a little bit helpful.  I'm not trying
to influence the discussion, btu I just want to say that my urge to design
a fantasy RPG was completely statiated once I read the Ars Magica rules.

						Jim Scannell
						v121mhb5@ubvms
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg:  The Basics
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 01:01:39 GMT

>>>>> On Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:36:14 GMT, jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca said:

	jb> (1) The stat systems are beginning to.. frighten me!

Well, maybe we should make a horror-genre, where you have to use all
the 120 stats from all the genres, and you have seperate scores in all
the 972 skills, determined from 972 formulas, each involving all the
120 stats. Or maybe not.. ;-)

	jb> into something worse than Hero. I think that the GURPSian
	jb> way of defining only a few stats (I think we shoudl have

IMHO the Skill Tree (Yggdrasil) is a Good Thing, and so is the Working
up from the Bottom. Of course, it is all scalable, so you could just
use the top level - 3-4 stats. Then you could let all the skills point
at them, which would make for a system very similar to the one you
describe. Satisfied?

Myself, I want a lot of stats and a lot of skills. So I'm a pervert.

	jb> (2) We *definitely* want a logarithmic scale.  I think
	jb> this element of Torg is fantastic, and we should

I don't really get it. Why isn't this impractical, I mean a +1 to 10
would be a lot different to a +1 to 9. Is this what you want?

	jb> (3) There's nothing wrong with stats centred on 0.  Think
	jb> of them as modifiers from the human norm, not stats, and

What's so special about humans that they should be the standard?

	jb> (4)  Don't throw out cards yet!  I'm in the process of making a very 

Yes, do throw them out! There is another game here, the
net.rpg.simple, or SLUG or whatever it's called now :-) They have some
nice card-related ideas. It's a completely different game than the one
we are working on. You can't make Chess with a Basic version called Ludo.

	jb> but which can be made more advanced without scrappign any
	jb> rules or adding (many) new mechanics.

Why can't we add mechanics to increase realism? I think this is the
way to go. Depends on your definition of mechanics, of course. I think
we'll have to add methods to increase realism.

	jb> of separately or vice-versa.  This can work.  However, it
	jb> *might* get convulted for dynamically changing characters;

No, I think not. Someone spoke about a system where you can distribute
some of the experience points for a skill upwards to the mother-skills
and even maybe up to the stat if you get a lot.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.frp.misc
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: Re: Stars
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:06:36 GMT

>>I'm interested in star information. Basically, a list of stars
>>(particularly singular main sequence F G and K stars) in the vicinity,
>>class/type/mass, and position.
>
>    I have a star mapping utility called...MAP.  I found it on one of the FRP
>ftp sites.  It is in the map directory, so you can't miss it if you're on the
>right one.  It is also in C, so you will need to compile it.  It takes an
>ascii database and plots it to one of several types of .ps files.

Hey, I wrote that! I posted it a long time ago to r.g.f. If anyone can't
find the archive site (I didn't even know it had been archived), I'll be
happy to e-mail copies of it. The included data file lists all the stars
within about 7 parsecs of the sun, including the fiddly little M dwarfs,
listing 3D coordinates and spectral types. You can get masses from the
spectral types by looking up any reasonable astronomy book.

David Mar.                                      mar@physics.su.OZ.AU
Astrophysics Department, University of Sydney  NSW  2006, Australia.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg:  separate skills and stats altogether
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<1992Nov17.153924.29597@crd.ge.com>
	<KETIL.92Nov18164612@sandel.ii.uib.no>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:10:43 GMT

>>>>> On 18 Nov 92 16:46:12, ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) said:

	Ketil> I don't really see the point of Object Orientation, I
	Ketil> mean, ok, you define the same stats for a Human as a
	Ketil> Dog.  This works out fine, I suppose.  Now use the same
	Ketil> stats for a shotgun.

You're right, of course. We'll have to limit it to living beings. It
was a nice idea, though.. :-) Maybe some day someone will find a nice
way of implementing this so that it works.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: NET.RPG:  Mechanic:  Skill resolution
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:36:35 GMT

> What do you all think?

I think we could use both (oh no, not again! :-) - most skills would
use the Success Level, and you would then roll directly for that on
the main table. Some skills, however, would use the result point
method. Combat skills would typically be RP, while things like
lockpicking would be SL. Maybe. 

I'm not sure about the division - but this would allow us to use RP
for those skills that benefit a lot by it, while avoiding the
complexity of it for those that don't benefit very much. 

Well - it's a dual mechanic - is it bad? Should we stick to one?
What do you think? 

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats - solution to Build/racial factors?
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:01:48 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

(Spike) writes:

>In article <1992Nov16.112908.4963@klaava.Helsinki.FI>,
>jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen) wrote:

>[All kinds of stuff deleted - read the original post, you lazy bums!]

>>                Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
>>        University of Helsinki, Dept. of Paranormal Investigations
>>            "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer

>Great, but what the hell does "Build" mean? Is it a generic sort
>of thing? Or are we saying that "since all things have it, we 
>should be able to quantify it, and create a scale wherein we
>can classify *everything*? Don't get me wrong, I like the 
>idea of esoteric base stats upon which more specific ones
>are based. But do we want to fall into the same pit as all 
>the other games? "Okay, the game has to define basic humans
>somehow. I know! We'll decide what things all people must
>have, and rate them on a scale."

>Is this the only way?

I'd rather think that we're trying to find out *what* everyone has, and
whether we can quantify it or not... But, in essence, we're saying what
you say above.

Mayhap me be single-minded, but I can't see no other way at the moment.

>Spike
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
       University of Helsinki, Dept. of Paranormal Investigations
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:14:10 GMT
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.

After lots of thinking, I propose that we reject cards altogether
(except possibly as bookkeeping aids as proposed earlier: a face-down
card = Hurt, two = Very Hurt, one face up = tired, etc.).

While cards have interesting possibilities, the system does create
headaches, and it is getting into too much complexity.  I really want
SLUG to be simple.

The only reason I had first wanted to use cards (every player having
his own 22-card deck, and the GM having hers; no hands, just draw or
cut one card to resolve each action and then shuffle it back in
immediately) is because there are no dice that will easily produce a
bell curve for a 1-7 range, with an extra result as automatic failure -
or so I thought.  I have since thought of one, and I'm now proposing
it.

This solution is not quite as intuitive, alas, but it's not too hard to
remember: instead of making Average a value of 4, let's build the bell
curve right into the numbers representing the words.  Average then
becomes a 6, and we roll the whole thing on a single d12  - here's the
whole proposed chart:

Terrible = 	1 =	8.3%
Inferior = 	2 =	16.7%
Poor = 		4 =	33.3%
Average = 	6 =	50%
Good = 		8 =	66.7%
Superior =	10 =	83.3%
Excellent =	11 =	91.7%

Automatic failure = 12 = 8.3%

Again, this goes back to my original suggestion: the player needs to
roll his skill number or less to succeed, as in Hero or GURPS.  (This
is the only resemblance to those games that SLUG has, however.)

While on the surface this may seem a bit grainy - why not have skill
and attribute levels at 5 and 7, for example - I like the looks of it
for the following reasons:

First, keeping to the seven-tiered, named quality-levels is very
intuitive, and it will be a snap for the GM to assess any NPC
instantly.  Just run your eye down the list of words, and you'll see
what I mean - it's not hard to decide if someone is Average or Good in
a skill, but what does it mean to have a skill of 6 or 7?

Second, it combines the best of a bell curve with a flat increase
system:  you can still have a +1 modifier, which moves an attribute
from, say, Average to a little above Average, but not quite good.  I
like this idea.

Third: d12s are readily available at any hobby or game store, (though,
admittedly, not at any drug store as cards are).  Using a die soothes
those who don't like the idea of constantly shuffling cards (though
nervous players would enjoy this activity, actually!).  Also, a base-12
system is mathematically very lovely - actually superior to a base-10
system, which we only use because of biological reasons, not
mathematical reasons.  Look at how rolling a 4 or less is exactly a 1/3
chance - beautiful!

Comments on this?  Once we resolve this issue, I'll rewrite up SLUG as
it stands, and post it again.  We can then move on from there.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg: stats - solution to Build/racial factors?
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:39:51 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

I have some new thoughts re: Build and Fitness.

The shape of a person's body can be determined by 
Build/Fitness ratio. In general, the player picks the
character's frame size ("height,"  to use the 
vernacular). Build is relative to this; height and
Build are then indexed to produce weight. 

As for bodyshape, without crunching numbers,
here are a few examples of what I mean:

                 Build   Fitness
                 -------   ----------
Sickly      Low      Low
Skinny    Low      Avge
Athletic  Avge    High
Muscular High   Avge
Fat            High     Low

Once we have a way to define attributes, we 
could create a list of example body types,
citing possible numbers frame/build/fit-
ness. IMHO, this would give a great, quick
'n' dirty "hook" into a character's physical
appearance. F. ex. - lithe, lanky, svelte, 
wiry, trim, slim, overweight, heavy, stout,
portly, obese, etc. Or we could have 
body stereotypes: Couch Potato, Weekend
Athlete, dwarf, giant, and so on. Or, we
could do both.

Spike

"I would shelter you, and keep you in light
 but I can only teach you
 night vision" - Suzanne Vega
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: admin
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:20:40 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:11:14 EST, <RDT111@psuvm.psu.edu> said:

	RDT111> to write a net.rpg.  If you want to join it just mail
	RDT111> me.  This rpg would probably be multi-genre, we (the
	RDT111> commitee) would make up the rules and periodicly post
	RDT111> what we have acomplished to the net.  There might also
	RDT111> be some discussion what rules we should make on the
	RDT111> net.  

I know we spoke about this in mail, but I think we have misunderstood
each other somewhat - I think the discussion should be here, on the
net. We just need a committe (or whatever we call it) to maintain the
faq, decide when the newsgroup can't - and be responsible for the end
product. Distribution, "marketing", so on..

	RDT111> attempt.  If this turn out to be what I hope it does
	RDT111> it will replace most of the net.rpg discussion
	RDT111> currently on the net.

That's not what I want. Btw. I have gotten *two* mails from people
that want the net.rpg discussion moved away from the group.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg: Skills
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:29:26 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

(Spike) writes:

>           Instead, how about setting it up so that characteristics
>are the defaults rolled for skills. Below characteristics are "broad"
>skills (Comp Sci, Thief, Magic, Guns). Below these are sub-skills:
>Programming, Debugging, Hacking; Pickpocket, Lockpicking, Stealth
>and so on. This gives the players a simple way to fine-tune the level of
>detail they want in the game.

I, too, consider this to be the best approach.

>Concerning skills combining with multiple stats: I like this idea, but 
>I don't see a way to make it work without ripping off Ars Magica
>or the Storyteller series.

Uh-oh, would you explain how these two work? I've never read either of
them, and was just about to post a suggestion on the subject...

>Caveats: If skills are based on stats, costs (in the point-alloc 
>generation system :-) must be very carefully balanced. 
>Otherwise, it is easy to run into trouble as GURPS has, 
>where it is *way* too cost-effective to buy high stats and pump
>a few points into a skill, rather than just buy the skill at high 
>level.

What if we first categorize the skills; each category would have a basic
skill derived from the stats (say, max would be 1/4 of max skill?) Then
each skill would have a racial base (humans swim better'n dwarves etc)
and in addition to that, the experience/point-allocated learned skill
portion.  We just keep the stat induced portion max down to that 1/4 of
max.  skill, and keep the common skills' starting level up with the
racial/cultural skill base (sort of simulating the automatic childhood
experience - you see a lot of water as a kid, you're likely to play on
it, and you're likely to have higher swimming skill than someone who has
never/rarely seen water, right? Max around 1/4 of max skill, perhaps?)

This would give the non-experienced characters a skill level to start
with (of course if some skills' cultural factor is zero, you simply
don't know how such a thing is done even though you'd have a high score
based on your stats - you need teaching to get started on that, right?),
and still emphasize the skills over stats considerably. Another factor
to help with the GURPS syndrome would be if the skill categories' bases
depended on two or three stats instead of just one (but that would
increase the calculus involved.)

>Spike
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
       University of Helsinki, Dept. of Paranormal Investigations
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg -- offline
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:36:52 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

Robert J. Hall writes:
>Hey guys, this discussion is fascinating and all that, but it is consuming
>95% of the bandwidth in this group. Would you mind terribly moving it off
>line into a e-mail group? 

But what are we to use this group for, then?  This matter is definitely
within charter of the newsgroup.

-- 
Whether you can hear it or not
The Universe is laughing behind your back
		-- National Lampoon, "Deteriorada"
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mar@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Mar)
Subject: Re: 3D map appearance in a computer game
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 05:14:19 GMT

In article <blah> fxmlk@acad3.alaska.edu (KIENENBERGER MIKE L) writes:
>This is a topic I'd like to see some discussion on (the glasses, not the eye
>crossing :-).   I was trying to create a "3-d" look, using the same
>techniques used on paper -- red/blue glasses looking at a double-imposed
>red/blue-green image.  However, at least on the computer screen, I wasn't able
>to duplicate the effect.  I know I used the same colors (12 bit color here),
>but it just didn't seem to work.  Anyone had any success with this?

I wrote a program a while back to generate 3D star maps in Postscript
format. One option was a stereo pair plot, printed in monochrome on a
single sheet of paper, with the left and right eye views on different
sides of a central dividing line. When I checked it with a cheap pair
of stereo-photo viewers (basically a small convex lens over each eye),
the 3D effect was quite good. I can send you the source code if you'd
like to see what algorithm I used (it's in C).

While I'm here, thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question
on this topic! I'm familiar with the _Elite_ system, and was considering
it as an option. I'm still finding it hard to believe the programmers
patented it! Gads, I can't afford to pay royalties out of a shareware fee!

David Mar.                                      mar@physics.su.OZ.AU
Astrophysics Department, University of Sydney  NSW  2006, Australia.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg - printing the rules (was Re: Net.rpg - "modularity")
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<1992Nov17.181309.15349@alf.uib.no> <BxxA11.1Cw@knot.ccs.queensu.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 00:00:21 GMT

>>>>> On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:31:49 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb) said:

	David> don't print those fancy summaries".  I'd rather see a
	David> discussion of "what functionality does a 'print the
	David> rules for my version of net.rpg' program have to have
	David> to make life simple for players (including game

Well, first of all maybe CPP would be a good program to use for this
purpose. Second, this is the functionality I would like:

 o It would have to be able to print the entire manual with 
   information about which parts were what, what was optional, which
   parts excluded which parts and so on.

 o It would have to be able to print the version you want in such a
   way that the modularity is transparent. Except maybe for a summary
   in the beginning stating which parts were included/excluded.

 o It would have to warn the user if he tried to include two mutually
   exclusive parts, or if he didn't include a neccessary part. For
   example - you would normally need *some* character generation
   system.

Sounds good, eh? I see it would be a bit hard to implement in CPP,
though. Maybe we have to make something special. This is all way into
the future, though.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dmatiske@nd.edu (David Matiskella)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Character Stats (LONG)
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:31:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.043359.15635@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, apace@mta.ca
wrote:
> 
> In article <Bxvv78.4y0@acsu.buffalo.edu>, leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet) writes:
> >Well there is some basic interest I guess so here is an excerpt from a 
> >system I've been toying with:
> >(I'll try to justify each area and then give an example or two so hit n when 
> >you've read enough :-) )
> >Stats:
> >  Physical:
> >    Strength:
> >      Power, Build, Speed
> >    Toughness:
> >      Endurance, Resistance, Pain-threshold
> >    Dexterity:
> >      Accuracy, Agility, Flexibility
> >  Cognitive:
> >    Reasoning:
> >      Logic, Comprehension, Faith
> >    Wisdom:
> >      Intuition, Charisma, Perception
> >    Knowledge:
> >      Memory, Experience, Studiousness
> >  Energy:
> >    Magic:
> >      Invocation, Alteration, Channeling
> >    Psychic:
> >      Equilibrium, Synchronicity, Essence
> >    Innate:
> >      Control, Force, Focus
I personally find this way to complex with many of the stats( Energy in
Particular) being very game
dependant. Also some of them like accuracy have more to do with a skill
than a generic ability( ie Nolan 
Ryan might be accurate with a base ball but that doesn't help him when he
picks up a bow or gun. Also
a lot of the stats are interrelated. Power is strength times speed. Speed
is a combination of agility and
strength. Pain-Thershold is toughness plus control. Comprehension depends
alot on experience with 
similiar problems, your ability to remember those problems, and your
ability to logically apply those
experiences to the situation.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design