From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Subject: Re: More About India/ Whither Patriotism
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 06:16:45 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.102754.17861@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> usubrama@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Uma M Subramanian) writes:
>Let me see if I can follow the drifts in this Premkumar guy's
>rationciations:
>
>First he came up with grandiose claims about how India is a haven of
>safety for women save the four/five big cities and challenged people
>to cite cases of sexual assault in towns and rural India; claimed that
>the workplace is safe in India whereas the women in America go to
>work every day with great trepidations; confused consensual adult
>behavior such as picking someone up at a bar (as is done in the 'degenerate'
>west) with forced, unsolicited, animalistic, sexual advances that a
>man imposes on a woman in public in the case of public sexual assaults.

False. You have just twisted my arguments to suit your view. 

>And finally bleated a customary "I'm not saying that women have equality
>in India, but ...". 

That was not customary but I said that sincerely. I don't care if you choose
to downplay that.

>All this with *no* facts to substantiate, in that
>first article that sent the blood pressure up for all the women who read
>it and who responded.
>
>THen, in the face of subsequent retaliations from women and men, he
>responded with revolutionary suggestions like: "the women shouldn't
>take all this lying down; why don't they report these cases?",  "I
>never said that the society and the family prepare the women to counteract
>this -- the parents should teach their daughters to battle this",
>"yeah, we Indians -- we quit so easily", "we don't believe in reform,
>we are not fighters". He essentially spent all his time (and took
>up every third or fourth article on this thread) taking back everything
>he said in that previous article and paying lip service to women's
>issues with "I sympathize with all the women ...." "I never said that
>there is no sexism ..."

First of all I never changed my positions. And I stand by whatever I said in
all my articles. And I never retracted from my views.

>And in the meantime, some others of his ilk jumped in and made dire
>predictions for those Indian women who think US is better for women
>(which incidentally, is, every woman who wrote on this subject, and
>from some email responses I got, every one who wrote to me):
>When their physical charm is gone and their smooth skin is all wrinkled
>with age, these women will realize that no American man wants them
>and will have to do with an Indian. (I wonder what the logical
>connection is between preferring the US to India and preferrign AMerican
>men to Indian men.)

I was never a part of this line of thought. Once again you are twisting facts.

>And now the current trend in this noble movement to evoke patriotism is
>emotioanl blackmail. "Why do we Indians engage in India bashing" type
>of question moved this guy to another spell of sweeping generalizations:
>
>The truth according to Mr. M.P. Premkumar is:
>
>It's because we feel secretly guilty of being renegades; because we
>decided to stay for a washer and a dryer; we like the material
>compforts and don't want to go back; we find the malfunctioning
>Indian system a convenient excuse instead of fighting to reform it.

Yes I said it and I believe that is the truth.

>I've had it up to here with these moralistic holier-than-thou preachers.
>This brand of martyr-like patriotism is as sickening as the "Bust Iraq"
>wave of "we shouldn't fail our country". I respect one's decision to
>support the president in "restoring world peace" or the decision to
>go back and fight the system. But how dare these people make judgement
>calls on those who decide to do otherwise?

Just as you have the right to critisize me I have the right to critisize you
or any one in this aspect. I did not critisize about people's personal life or
their choices. And again if you think patriotism is too personal to discuss in
a public forum I am sorry.

>FIrst of all, if I decide to not go back to India, I don't have to
>give anyone any reason.

Nobody asked for it.

>Secondly, if I do choose to give a reason, it doesn't have to be a noble
>one. May be it's great things like "I want to be a part of the cutting
>edge of research in my field", or "I like the freedom I enjoy here that
>I never had in India" or "I like the international mix here". May be
>it is "I liek the material comforts here", "I like the cars here".
>May be it is "Now that Woody Allen is single again, I'd like to stick
>around and try my chances" or "You can't wear slinky clothes in India"
>or "You don't get Pritikin soup in India". How presumptuous to accuse
>people of choosing material comforts!

I strongly believe that is the truth. If you don't think so that's fine.

>And may be some have all the wealth in India that they need to lead a
>comfortable life, either through their savings here or by other means
>(a someone already poitned out). LIfe here is harder in many ways
>than in India.

So if life is hard in one's country then they should try to get out of
the country as soon as possible eh ?

>Everyone faced with the decision of where to settle down agonizes over
>it without these preachers taking it upon themselves to play guilt
>tricks on those who decide to not go back to India. It's an intensely
>private decision and it's nobody's bloody concern except the one making
>it.

Again if you think patriotism is too personal to discuss in a public forum then
there is no use discussing. 

>Uma Subramanian
>

Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar