From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: Re: Sati and Gita (Re:Sati system because of Islam (Gita's Teachings)).
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 01:40:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec25.141913.45901@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>In article <1he47cINNhtn@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, 
>>vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu) writes:
>>> In article <1992Dec24.163915.45897@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 
>>> dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>>> In article <1992Dec24.181855.27289@news2.cis.umn.edu>, 
>>>> crick@tsp.med.umn.edu (Ed Crick (CD)) writes:
>>>> In article <1992Dec23.211702.7490@ann-arbor.applicon.slb.com> 
>>>>gupta@mailhost.aa.cad.slb.com (Sanjay K. Gupta) writes:
>>>>> (...... some interesting observations deleted to save space......)	
>>
>> Well this has indeed happened in many cases. But that does not serve to
>> reinforce a stereotype of Muslims being debauched. Far from it, it only
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>  Yes, this is true. *ALL* Muslims are *NOT* Allauddin Khiljis. But, in the
>  times that you are referring to, most of the rulers were. Islamic rule in
>  India, spanning a total of 1000 years, show that there were few Akbars.
>
>  postion of women than the days following after that.
> [ some deleted]  
>
>>> Sati was first, again relying on my memory, advocated by Manu. In India,
>>> if a "Hindu" has to swear by any religious text in a court - as a witness, he
>>> she will have to do so by the code of Manu or the Bhagvad Gita. The Indian
>>> judicial system till date "probably" defines a Hindu who follows the code of
>>> Manu (Manusmriti). This is the text which openly advocates:
>>>
>>>  (1) Sati (2) Child marriage (3) Brahmins marrying four women (like Moslems),
>>>  (4) Brahmanical supremacy and the caste system.   
>> 
>> 
>> Again a very subjective statement. Manu never advocated the practice of
>> Sati. Manu, in fact has been the most misunderstood person in the Hindu
>> philosophy. Manu has suggested certain codes of conduct for the general 
>> living of society, and they have been twisted out of context, by latter
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> day "guardians" of society, so to speak, to subjugate masses of people.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>   Vivek, at this point, I am unable to agree that (1) - (4) cannot be found
>   in Manusmriti. However, as you have explained (1) to (4) were *temporal*
>   strictures. They are not religious norms. The mode of survival, of a 
>   society, was as dictated by Manu. Now, it would be an interesting question
>   to investigate why in the times of Mahabharata society was so progressive,
>   while in the following periods, one sees a repressive form of Hindu society
>   - that quite blindly adheres to some rules which are temporal. 
>
>   In fact blind adherence to temporal societal rules does not qualify any
>   progress. Thus, when Manu wrote his treatise, the society was different.
>   As you observe, rulers/ kings should have been more benign not to use the
>   text (manusmriti) literally - advocating that *it is* complete Hinduism.
>
>
>   Secondly, I find your oblique support for Code of Manu quite amusing, as,
>   re-marriage of widows - that was first institued by Iswar Chandra
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Vidyasagar, was a direct *revolt* against the Code of Manu. (I have read
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

       In Tamil Nadu, there were many communities where widow re-marriage
       or even divorce are not prohibited. Therefore Iswar Chandra
       Vidyasagar can not be said to have 'instituted' widow remarriage.

       In Salem District in Tamil Nadu certain communities allow
       'thumu aruppu' ( = breaking the bond) which lets a woman to
       divorce a present husband and remarry another and this is done
       in a Ur ManRam ( Panjayat) where the two parties present their cases
       and some period of separation is allowed before finally deciding
        on the divorce. In ThirunelvEli District in Tamil Nadu, there
       are some communities which practice 'aruththu kattu' ( break
       the bond and form a new bond). These are used for divorce and
       for widow remarriages although infrequently resorted to. 
       
>   *fully* the works of Vidyasagar, and, thus recall that Vidyasagar, while
>   reading the Hindu texts and scriptures, found that the code of Manu had been
>   used quite deviously by Brahamanical societies.) The mooting point here is
>   that Hinduism is a culture that is fundamentally progressive. So, as I did
>   mention in my earlier posting, when Shankaracharya of some temple advocates
>   the Sati (that occurred in recent times), he *is* doing a severe harm to
>   the society at large. When something is wrong, it *is* necessary to condemn
>   it - probably banish it forever. It is my opinion that this is how society
>   progresses. I also think that rejecting what is antiquated and inapplicable
>   , and, accepting what is new and supportive is also in spirit with the
>   Bhagavat Gita. (" Basangshi, jirnani ..... ") However, I am *not* implying
>   that what is old *must* be rejected. It depends on the applicability.
>
>        [ lot of stuff deleted]
>
>> Regards,
>> Vivek.
>> 
>> -- 
>> vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
>> Research Assistant, Systems Engineering Lab., Dept. Of Computer Science, 
>> School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
>> California State University, Chico, California.
>
>
>           - regards,
>
>             deb chatterjee


       -Selva
>           (a good samaritan)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian