HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared Unconstitutional
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:16:48 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.175725.148@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>This is a bad miscarriage of Justice.  The Rabbis are not dictating
>law.  The law simply states that products labeled as Kosher must
>actually be Kosher.  No crossing of church/state here.  The Rabbi is
>an expert witness who knows the laws of Kashrut.  Certainly, the court
>doen't think that a lawyer with no knowledge of judaism is more
>qualified than a Rabbi to clearly define what the laws of Kashrut are.

   I'm going to have to disagree (what is this, a game show?) or at
   least take a tangent to the field. The butcher shop down the street
   from me offers Lubavitch and Satmar schechita on request. There
   cannot be an absolute division into kasher and non-kasher. 

   In fact, there can only be "meets these specifications, which I
   certify as being true." In practice, this is what happens anyway.
   People rely on some hechsers, and not on others, because they
   accept or don't the methodology of those who provide the hechsher.

   Frankly, I think the whole problem could be easily solved. A
   trademark hashgacha can't be used without fraud. The local
   certification should be changed from "kosher" to "under the
   kashrut supervision of X." Individuals can then decide whether
   X is to their liking.

   There might be a problem, then, with putting stumbling blocks before
   the blind, but the usual reality based analysis, of such
   people as Akiva Eiger, (do I have the spelling correct? pronounced
   long A hard G) would allow it.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Date: 28 Jul 92 00:19:37 GMT
	<1992Jul27.041242.3231@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: markr@mot.com's message of 27 Jul 92 04:12:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.041242.3231@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> markr@mot.com (Mark) writes:
>
> In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >In article <1992Jul22.220540.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
> >>
> >> I'm looking for an apartment in Gilo Bet in Jerusalem for mid sept
> >> to mid october for a couple.  If you know of any possbility, please
> >> respond to taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu or in J'lem call Lenn
> >> Schramm at 63 01 38 during the day.
> >
> >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>
> And why would that have any bearing on a person needing an apartment
> there for a few monthes ?

The first followup actually trying to make a point...

It may not matter to you, but I doubt you will deny that this
information *might* make a difference to some people who are looking for
an apartment in Jerusalem.  That's why I posted it.

> (not to mention asking why either of these articles are in s.c.j)

The second would not have appeared were it not for the first.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<EGGERTJ.92Jul24115145@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Jul24.224139.3018@scubed.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 19:04:49 GMT

>>                                            ... What is the "moral"
>> difference between the Orthodox of Jerusalem throwing stones at other
>> Jews who travel on the Sabbath ...
>>
   This is simply not an accurate statement,  and should not be taken 
   either as factual or condoned.  Have you actually SEEN this happen,
   or do you repeat a nasty story which someone cannonized years ago?
--
/M
From: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Janice Gelb)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Centrality of Men/Women (Was Re: Inher
Date: 21 Jul 1992 17:27:46 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin

In article 16836@cbnewsl.cb.att.com, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
# In article <l6du5tINNfp6@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM# janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
#
##                   What do you mean when you say "an Orthodox wife
## ..constantly performs domestic duties which are religious in nature and
## governed by religious law, with a minimum intrusion of the
## non-religious world"?  Cooking?  Cleaning?  Taking care of kids?  Do
#                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
## you consider these to be activities more religious in nature than her
## husband's studying or davening?
#
#
# As a subset of the things permitted and/or required, yes.
#


I never thought I'd ask this of a net poster, but could you please be a 
little less concise?  I have no idea what this response means.


*******************************************************************************
Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 
********************************************************************************
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Meat on the first 10 days of Av.
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:29:37 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Organization: Michigan State University
Originator: friedenb@kira.egr.msu.edu


I have a few questions about eating meat between Rosh Chodesh Av and Tisha
B'Av:

When is the last time that I can have meat?  

Is there exception for eating meat on Shabbat during this period?  

Can I eat pareve foods which are cooked in fleishig pots but contain
no meat?


Thanks!

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Centrality of Men/Women (Was Re: Inher
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:47:04 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Jul21.201252.7959@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>Halachah mandates a role for both men and women in raising children).

I still don't get it.  Do you mean that Halachah mandates different
roles for men and women in raising children (and if one partner
performs the other's tasks are they over on bal tosif?) or that
Halachah mandates that both parents be involved in raising children? 
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish signature virus.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:58:43 GMT

In article <9207221649.AA21824@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com  
(User - Don Gertler) writes:
> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:
> >Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
> >born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
> 
> Perhaps not, but he/she wouldn't be a cannibal then.
> 
> -Don Gertler

Then, even if my mother is Jewish, if I do not practice Jewish principles,  
I am not Jewish?

AAP
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:13142 soc.culture.arabic:2900 talk.politics.mideast:17303
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Kotel "kvitlach" by Fax ?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:26:01 GMT

In <1992Jul30.073246.424@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

  Someone at work mentioned that in yesterday's MAARIV newspaper there was a
  short note about Rabbi Getz (RAV HAKOTEL) getting "KVITLACH" (small pieces
  of paper with written "requests" to be placed in the cracks of the rocks of
  the Western Wall) by FAX. Did anybody (in Israel) see this ?

Sigh.  The normal method of communication with The One To Whom
Kvitlach Are Addressed is open 24 hours a day, can be used on Shabbat,
and does not require the use of electronic devices.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is hungry.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gaujxl@samhain.fnma.com (Jacob Lifshitz)
Subject: Re: Did We Win an Olympic Medal?
Keywords: olympics,israel
Organization: Fannie Mae, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:48:52 GMT

In article <Bs8zIr.D1F@news.cso.uiuc.edu> gpkg2142@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gary P. Kulwin) writes:
>Shalom Everybody,
>I got a call from a friend telling me that Israel has
>just won its first medal ever in Olympic competition.
>Who won?  What sport?  Was the medal gold, silver, or

Yael Arad, Judo up tp 63 Kg, Silver - loosing to a french i the final
(ironically arad means bronze). 

>bronze?  Do any of the Israelis on this newsgroup think
>that this medal victory will be a big event in Israel,
>similar to the 1977 European Cup victory, or a win in
>the Eurovision Song Contest?
>
I personally thing that it will have some effect.  I was excited when my
wife broke me the news while I was showering.

>Kol Tuv, Gary Kulwin
>-- 
> Gary Kulwin                                    | "If you will it,
> Graduate Student in Organizational Behavior    |  it's no dream" -- Herzl
> University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign       | "If you swill it,
> Internet: gpkg2142@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu            |  it is no drink" -- Elvis

Kobi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: prices (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 17:10:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.163536.6942@cs.ubc.ca>, davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein) writes:
|> Which reminds me of a story my grandfather told me.
|> 
|> It seems this non-jewish man was walking down the street.  On one shop
|> window, he read "Daniel Benjamin, Mohel" and in the window there were
|> displayed a number of very nice watches.  So, the man enters, and asks
|> the fellow sitting there if he could buy one of the watches.
|> 
|>   "Sorry, I don't sell watches," was the Daniel's reply.
|>   
|>   "Then why do you have them displayed in your window?"
|>   
|>   "What *should* I display in my window?"

Reminds me of the Dear Abby (or Ann Landers) column the other day.  Someone
made the point that in order to avoid potentially dangerous mixups, all
medicines should be labled with pictures of the appropriate body parts - 
an eye for eye drops, an ear for ear drops, etc.  Her reply was "I'd love
to see the label for hemorrhoid medicine!"
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 30 Jul 92 11:23:23 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <5177@shum.huji.ac.il> ranen@huey.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen
 Goren) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.213709.10954@jade.tufts.edu>,
> nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw) writes:

>|> and Islamic leaders), but that without the Arab factor the Likud-right
>|> would still reign, even with the ex-Soviet and first-timers' votes for
>|> B'ahavat Yisrael--     Nissan
>|>
>--
>The Arabs contributed to the Left's victory just as Labor's
>voters did, and Meretz's voters did.
>
>The change in the left's seats was this way:
>
>           1988   1992
>           ----   ----
>Labor        39     44
>Meretz       10     12
>Arabs         6      5
>
>----SubTotal 55     61
>
>Right        47     43
>Religious    18     16
>             --     --
>            120    120
>
>As we see, not only that the Arabs did not gain power, they lost it.
 ^^^^^^^^^
>The whole "pure" left parties rose up from 55 to 61 mandates, and Shas
>made the coalition have 67 votes. So you can see that the increasement
>of Labor and Meretz, despite the decreasement of the Arabs, was the
>factor that made the Left win the elections.

 Ranen  Goren makes a very trivial mistake. Instead of counting VOTERS
he counts Knesset chairs!

The knesset is not a representative sample of the whole population.
When talking about population you should look for the voters. It make
no sense to count the Mapam voters , when t was clear that there are
less than 1.5% of such a type of voters and not to count the Tehiya
voters, when it was clear (before the election!) that they will pass
the 1.5% barrier.

  Shalom   Gideon ehrlich    ERETZ YISRAEL
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: New Jersey Kashrut Laws Declared Unconstitutional
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:25:14 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.152834.3860@udel.edu> carroll@bugs.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes:
>
>As I understand it, the reasoning behind this was that the ordinary
>fraud laws are more than adequate for dealing with false kashrut
>labelling. By making specific legislation that deal with enforcing
>religious laws, they are violating the seperation of church and state,
>by interfering in the internal affairs of a religious group. (To begin
>with, how does the law decide if a product labelled as kosher is
>actually kosher? By asking a Rabbi. But which Rabbi? If an Orthodox,
>then the law may be stating that Conservative hechshers are in
>violation of Kashrut... if Conservative, then the law is stating that
>the Orthodox are unnecessarily strict. It's better to leave it in the
>realm of fraud... )

I wonder what New York does.  They're extremely strict regarding
false-labelling of kosher products.  

Personally, I think it should be possible to arrive at a decision that
would be acceptible to most of the Orthodox community.  Those
individuals who wish to be stricter on themselves always have that
choice.  

It's been my belief that most of these disputes as to whose kashrut to
trust had less to do with interpretation of Halacha and more to do
with how careful the person is in enforcing the accepted
interpretation.  Again, some will go overboard, and some will not care
much.  The strictest ones won't be satisfied with anything less than
their own personal Rabbi's approval, so we can't base law on them
anyway.  Of the rest, a consensus shouldn't be hard to arrive at.

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: susskind@cis.ohio-state.edu (sara susskind)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: telnetting from Israel to the US
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:35:47 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Originator: susskind@tyranosaur.cis.ohio-state.edu


I am planning to visit Israel this summer and would like to be able to
access my University account.
Does anyone know if any of the universities allow students public access
to the internet -- (i'll be in tel aviv and jlm)
please send email
thanks,
sara
susskind@cis.ohio-state.edu
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:20:23 GMT

ml = lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
hm = hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)

hm:  The Torah mandates that one must give up ones life for
hm: three things (Idol Worshp, Ervah - usually translated as sexual
hm: immorality, and Murder).

ml: Nice twist.  I was taught that you could break Shabbat, even a
ml: fast, if your life was at risk.  And what about the story of a
ml: father and son in the desert?

Yes, preserving life is more important than Shabbat.  It's less
important than other things.

ml: I have always been more interested in the
ml: spirit of Judaism, rather than the strict letter of the law.

So why can't we leave it at that.  People who are intersted in both
the letter of the law find the spirit to be different.  So we disagree
- we're not going to convince you by quoting law and you're not going
to convince us by quoting spirit.

ml: Would you suggest we return to torturing people? 

Wild analogies time.  Next it's time for someone who supports the
death penalty to ask "well what should we do, give the murderer a
medal"?   Then we need a posting from several people who either
support or oppose the death penalty based on other religions or
secular ethics.  And we can all get righteously indignant and feel
superior to all those people out there with immoral opinions.

ml: Many people, not just Mr. Markowitz, have all but suggested that I
ml: cannot be Jewish and oppose the death penalty.

While I don't find support within Judaism for an absolute ban on it, I
do not maintain that one who is totally opposed is "not Jewish", "not
a good Jew" or anything along those lines.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very cold mathom.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is hungry.
From: aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Global Jewish Network
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:25:19 GMT
Organization: KESHERnet International - Dallas, TX

In article <1992Jul21.035018.28360@mel.dit.csiro.au> sw@koel.mel.dit.CSIRO.AU (Simon Wail) writes:
>I recently read in the Australian Jewish News (17/7/92) about the formation of
>a Global Jewish Network being supported by the Ministry of Communications in
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Simon Wail, Ph.D Student,	| CSIRO High Performance Computation Project |

That is correct.  Dov Winer  (viner@bguvm.bgu.ac.il) and Zvi Illani (eres@
ilncrd) <<--bitnet  are the two who are trying to put this thing together.

Dov has a standard "mailout" you can ask him for.  The project is still alive,
and it's goal is to bring every electronic Jewish forum on-line and in touch
with all the others, using internet as the backbone.  KESHERnet, for instance,
will be backboned onto internet, but still maintain her local nodes (because
it's much easier and cheaper to get people onto KESHERnet than internet, plus
we are already all around the world).

The are a few things being done now, but mostly everything is on hold until
we see what the new government wants to do....


-- 
| Aaron D. Schmiedel            |  All my opinions represent what is right  |
| KESHERnet International       |  and true.  Just ask me....               |
| The Jewish Computer Network   |       <aaron@kesher.lonestar.org>         |
| Voice: (214) 239-1941         | ...uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!kesher!aaron   |
From: goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Yigal Fails the Turing Test
Date: 25 Jul 92 03:19:28 GMT
Reply-To: goer@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:

>>> I'm looking for an apartment in Gilo Bet in Jerusalem for mid sept to mid
>>> october for a couple.  If you know of any possbility, please respond to 
>>> taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu or in J'lem call Lenn Schramm at 63 01 38 
>>> during the day.  
>>
>>Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>
>Only a machine or an idiot would tack on a political comment to an apartment
>wanted add.  Truly out of control.

You must be a newcomer.  Welcome to the net.  Who, by the way, did you say
was out of control?

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 22:33:42 GMT

In article <9207271357.AA08783@nysernet.ORG> <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
writes:
>I would be very interested in why Michael Lax opposes the death penalty
>based on Jewish values.
>
>Is it because it may be mistakenly applied? Is it because he feels that
>the punishment is too severe? Is it because he feels the criminal may yet
>be rehabilitated? Is it because he feels that it does damage to the people
>carrying it out, even though the criminal may be deserving of it?
>
>Or could it be that it is not given uniformly? But that shouldn't be a
>problem. One can hardly see that because half the people deserving of
>punishment escape it, the other half also should.
>
>Please notice that I have answered a question not with a question, but with
>many questions. Lifnim mishuras hadin.


I oppose the death penalty on the Jewish values I was taught in Sunday school
and by my parents.  Life is the highest value in Judiasm, and should be saved
at almost any cost - except another life.  Many criminals may, in fact, be
rehabilitated, though many more may not.  It is interesting to note that the
writer of the previous post considers unfair murder to be fair.  The death
penalty is *not* a punishment, in any case.

I would be *very* interested in learning why a Jew would consider murder an
acceptable solution to ANY problem.  Many Jews are vegeterians because they
feel uncomfortable eating meat, although Judiasm is one of the FEW religions
that requires specific rituals in preparing animals to insure they are
treated humanely.  Why are people so quick to turn human beings into
something less than animal?  Is Jewish law so steeped in vengence?  I DO NOT
THINK SO.

There is a wide variety of facts which indicate VERY STRONGLY that the death
penalty, in this or any country, is an unfair abuse of government power that
kills citizens.  It is arbitrary, it is expensive (costs at least twice as
much as the death penalty), it kills INNOCENT PEOPLE (I assume the previous
writer will say it is okay to kill a few innocent people so long as you get
most of the guilty ones...), it is blatantly racist, and, finally, how can a
Jew forget the last time the death penalty was used against us?

Again, however, my concern is with Jewish study on the death penalty; I
realize scripture reads fairly direct on the subject.  However, the Mishnah
and Gemmorah read quite differently.  The debate on the death penalty in
Jewish law is not as open shut as this poster would have us believe.

lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
Michael Lax
Austin, Texas
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish