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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:05:00 CST
From:         Garry Dyck <gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject:      Re: God
              a

Zahir,

On what basis are you deciding that incest and murder are not always wrong?

Garry
From: AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
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Subject: Re: God
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:10:30 GMT
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Garry,

I don't understand the sensitivity to a nice statement wishing a happy
season..... In any case, I believe there is only one GOD who is addressed
by different names.....

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:14:52 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: god's academic record (fwd)

Ahmed,

Explanations will come.....Once upon a time water was thought to be
coming from God....until someone made oxygen and Hydrogen come together..

and people said only God can make knees and lungs and hearts and so
on and we are now getting them all artificial....made by man....

Just because you cannot explain something now does not mean it came
from God....we just might discover where everything is coming from
and improve on it....make it even better than the original....Through
Genetics, we have changed the size and type and amount of a large
number of foods we eat.... we do not need hens to hatch eggs anymore
and the eggs are bigger now that man is helping God make them...

zahir
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From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: before birth...
Date: 17 Dec 1992 22:44:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.") says:

>
>No flame intended here but how do you, as a conservative Christian, reconcile
>a celebration of difference and diversity with the position that non-beleivers
>are doomed to hell........

Beats me, to tell you the truth.:-)  It's partly the knowledge that I can't
convince people that the way I follow is correct, when they're just as
convinced of their own religious/social/whatever beliefs.  It's either
cooperate or segregate around here, so I choose to cooperate/collaborate.
A lot of my non-net friends are religious Jews [just a fact folks] and if
we all live in the same town, we have to be able to get along.  Other friends
are from other cultures and other religions, and we've more or less decided
to call a truce in "Conversion Wars".:-)  Even the Mormon missionaries may have
given up on this house/block by now.:-)

>For you, the two seem compatible, which I find confusing. Talk to me, privately
>to avoid the slings and arrows of Christian bashing in the public ether,
>but tell me, please, because I sincerely would like to understand.
>
So would I; it's just the way I was raised.  I think the main reasoning
behind this kind of thing is in I Corinthians, but I'm not about to type
in the whole thing.:-)  This account may become inaccessible soon, so starting
up a private convo. might not be a good idea. :-( 

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 10:25:12 EST
From:         oliver@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Zahir's observations pretty much coincide with mine, and I was
born here.  Then, again, I have no brothers, but two older sisters.
Family size and gender mix probably have something to do with it,
but my guess is that cultural conditioning probably a lot more.

Oliver
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:21:45 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      The Chinese

An interesting question:

When someone tells me they have Chinese students in their class,
I think:

        1. Probably science students
        2. Probably very driven, overacheivers
        3. Probably never complain about grades, difficulty of assignments,
                `       silliness of exam questions.


Personally, what comes to mind are:

        Patience
        Socially Insular
        Passive


I look forwar to hearing others comments on this question and want to pose
an additional list of "what do you think when you are told somoone is?"
questions:

                Canadian
                American
                Japanese
                Filippino
                India
                Israeli
                Arabic


<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:55:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...

First, to Douglass: I just got the mail from your response to Garry, this before
   I commented on his defense of the Judeo God.  I want to make it clear that
I do agree with your follow-up explanation (i.e., that there are more important
things to examine).

Zhao: Thank you SO MUCH for bringing in a new perspective!  I will respond.

1.  From my studies of China beginning with the death of Sun Ya'tsen to the
current regime of Jiang Zemin and Deng Xiaoping I perceive the Chinese, like
many southeast asians, as an extremely diligent and gifted people.  It's
a veritable shame that many intellectuals had been supressed during the Maoist
era.  As

2.  As for spiritual presumptions, I guess that Maoism did predominate for
a period of time (borrowing from MOZI (sp?) philosophy) while driving out
any hint of Confucianism.  I see the spirit of Confucius returned, though,
with renewed peaceful vigor.

3.  Times are difficult now with the impending reclamation of Hong Kong
and the "One Country; Two Systems" programme.


Not much else to note; hope this gives some direction.
*)*)-> The Miscegenator <-(*(*
Adam Karp  [akarp@gonzaga.edu]
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:20:37 -0700
From:         Zhao Yong <zyong@LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...

It seems to me the "call" to change the topic actually re-heated the
discussion over religion, and even more exactly Christianity. I don't know
if it is the Season's topic, but I feel, as many other XCULT-Lers have
felt, this list is more of a CROSS cultrural nature, not only cross
RELIGIOUS nature. It is of course very insightful to read all the
different ideas about a holiday greeting, but I think it maight be more
helpful for us to understand cross culture communication by examining, not
criticizing, each belief's perceptions of other beliefs, each people
(nation)'s perception of other people (nation).

For example, allow me to ask you for your perception of Chinese people or
culture. What are the words you want to use to describe Chinese people and
culture? (Don't hesitate if the words are negative--I promise I will not
argue with you)

I am really curious about the answers, because in a very recent book on
cross-cultural communication, the authors speculate very inaccurate
descriptions about Chinese culture (maybe other cultures too, but I cannot
say), and because until we really know other people and our perceptions
about other people, we are very likely to believe in "ABSOLUTES" of
ourselves.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

Waiting for your judgment: Zhao Yong (Chinese)
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:22:57 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: before birth...

Ruth:

No flame intended here but how do you, as a conservative Christian, reconcile
a celebration of difference and diversity with the position that non-beleivers
are doomed to hell........

For you, the two seem compatible, which I find confusing. Talk to me, privately
to avoid the slings and arrows of Christian bashing in the public ether,
but tell me, please, because I sincerely would like to understand.

Douglass.....
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:26:43 MEZ
From:         Uwe <UWEHAUCK@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE>
Subject:      Re: News from Germany
              14 Dec 1992 19:46:00 +0200 from <TOMY_ACE@EGAUCACS>

Hatem: (:-)) Thanx to all, who believe in the common sense of the
german people in these days. As recent developments might have
shown more expressively, there is a vast majority of people
that are actively involved in working against violence, this time
from the extreme right.
Some more additions: Starting last week, all german TV-Stations
are broadcasting now "commercials" (an ugly word combined with the
effort it is targeted on) that promote doing something against
right wing violence, demonstrating, discussing the topic.
It is very encouraging for me and my friends to see how massive
the people work together now, to stop all this violence
from those stupid neonazis.
Uwe
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:42:00 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

Emmy,

Thanks for explaining me...I did not mean to get serious about
religious issues....

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:33:00 PDT
From:         AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

Deng Xiaoping marketed on Mao's earlier phraseology with "seek truth from
facts."  It appears odd that two contradicting point of views have been
expressed, one claiming that religion is based purely on emotion and the
other based solely on facts (obj vs subj).

I'm unclear about the statement by Garry that in the far east every religion
is for the most part diluted to the point of homogeneous consistency.
Why must religion be only monotheistic?  Could not religion be also Maoism,
Buddhism, or even playing gold (as is a form of religious practice in small
Japanese circles!)?  Personally, I tend to believe in a finite God with
polytheistic interpretations (every human being applying subjective
reason and emotion to decide upon her own personal god).  Despite the
fact that I gravitate toward piecemeal supernaturalism (I know this is a
cultural board not philosophical) like William James, I suppose I could
try to convince everyone that mine is the absolute answer to life, the
universe and everything.  What is most humorous about this (my-God-is-better-
than-yours debate) is that nobody can PROVE truth from facts...

'Nuff about psycho-physical babble, what is the point here.  The religious
debate and struggle throughout eternity has been the cause of DEATH and
ALIENATION, far from the transreligious tenets of benevolence and
kinship.  , far from the transreligious tenets of benevolence and

Happy moral vacation!..

PS-I meant "playing golf, not gold"
ERACISM
Adam Karp
akarp@gonzaga.edu
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: before birth...
Date: 19 Dec 1992 19:51:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA ("DOUGL, APPARENTLY.") says:

>Ruth and anyone else interested :
>
>The God's Word For Windows program can be had by anonymous ftp from
>128.252.135.4
>
>under directory:
>
>                mirrors/win3/misc.
>
>The files are labeled gww11_0#.zip
>
>where the number is 1 to 12 for the 12 parts of the program.
>
Thanks, I'll pass it on.

>
>If anyone out there knows of a similar online program from the Book of
>Mormon, please let me know [ The LDS genealogy program is very very good.]
>
>
I know a place where it's online.  The Cleveland Freenet has it.:-)
It's got the Quran too, but whether there's a way to grab the programs
themselves....  Beats me.  I don't know whether it's accessable from a
guest/visitor account or not, but it might be.  telnet address: 
hela.ins.cwru.edu.  If all else fails, some of the systems jockeys can
always use some more mail.:-)  Or go into an Archie server and look for it
that way....

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:49:22 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

When I said there is only one God and different names  for him...be it
Allah, God, or anything else...  Its different languages and thus
different names.....

In any case, I am an agnostic.......and I do not even believe that any
one religion is right...  There can be many paths to the same destination...

zahir
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 12:09:09 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CBS: Eng is the Best Language?!

Zahir:

I'm not offended... (puzzled look) nor am I upset... (still puzzled by
your reply)...

I'm just saying that I don't think getting into a debate about which is
the better sex is a profitable conversation... if you get along with
males or females better or what have you is something else..

I just think we are all individuals and we should try to stay away from
borad generalizations....

/Emmy :-) <----- see, I'm fine...
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:56:40 MEZ
From:         UWEHAUCK@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE
Subject:      News from Germany

Even more demonstrations against racism this weekend. In Hamburg several
hundreds of thousands of people light their candles to protest against
right wing violence. The riverside of the Alster was light up by
Thousands and thousands of candles.
Sunday afternoon there was a concert of several pop-groups to
demonstrate against racism. All of them played for free, and even the
concert itself was free for the people and was broadcasted live
by one of the major tv-stations.
Uwe
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Interpretations of God
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:30:24 GMT
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Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, gdyck@CCU.UMANITOBA.CA (Garry Dyck) says:

>talk about the differences.  I hope that I can talk to people about my
>beliefs (at appropriate times and places).  I refuse to reduce my beliefs
>to include all three views of Jesus (one of many prophets, God, a
>heretic).  I am a pacifist and do not believe in any kind of violence,
>physical or psychological, in order to persuade others.  But we should
>feel free to communicate what we believe even if those beliefs are
>absolute.
>
>Even though I am new to this list, I feel very uncomfortable saying all
>this because I fear it may stifle future conversations.  Does anyone else
>on this list hold absolute beliefs?
>
Yep, count me in.  I'm usually a bit reluctant to chime in these days; a
couple of flame wars and some rather nasty messages have left me a bit
gun shy.  I'm not precisely a pacifist, but using violence to "persuade"
others of the incorrectness of their views makes my stomach turn.  I think
 we should be able to discuss this sort of thing without resorting to name
calling, and discussing it *is* important.  Unfortunately, when this sort of
thing goes sour, it goes *very* sour, which is no fun at all, and much
less informative.
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:29:25 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: God

Garry,

I did not say its wrong for you to believe in absolutes....I said that
I would have little interest talking to anyone on a subject that they
are convinced they know the absolute one and only answer...there is little
point in such discussions....

However, when for example, a Christian or Muslim learns about the similiariti
in their religions and is willing to accept that both religions
foster same or compatible values, then some discussion can proceed...

I like to engage in discourse with people who, while they may not
change their own belief are atleast willing to be open to suggestions
that there may be alternatives...even if not as good as they hold their
own......

zahir
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:30:53 -0400
From:         "DOUGL, APPARENTLY." <STCHRI@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...

-----She/He/They Said ----
->
->First, to Douglass: I just got the mail from your response to Garry, this befo
   re
->   I commented on his defense of the Judeo God.  I want to make it clear that
->I do agree with your follow-up explanation (i.e., that there are more importan
   t
->things to examine).
->

Sometimes I hate this system.

Messages tend to get crossed over, crossed up, and just cross.

So, agreeing to change the subject is a timely agreement.



<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-> Douglass St.Christian  <->        ______
<-> Anthropology           <->        \    / This Tribe can
<-> McMaster               <->         \  /  speak
<-> Canada                 <->          \/   for itself
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:15:23 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Challenge

Welcome akarp....!
/Emmy
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:52:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Right and Wrong

This discussion about God and the subjectivity of belief has prompted me to
bring the following question to the list:
Is there a universal right and wrong? A classmate of mine holds (and so do many
others) that it is only bands of individuals who decide morality and therefore
right and wrong is such a subjective thing. Societies and cultures have their
own belief of right and wrong and therefore have a different view of morality.
Is there this "natural law" which binds all of our cultures together which
suggests that murder is wrong, cheating is wrong, and charity is right?
Many religious standpoints, taking the Catholic for an example, would hold that
there are rights and wrongs that are absolute. This is quite evident as one sees
the focus of Catholicism on this solid morality. But if we were to think of
it from another perspective--religion proves the subjectivity of morality--since
different religions hold varying versions of right and worng--morality is
a subjective thing.
Does soceity/culture dictate morality or is morality constant?
It seems to me that morality is very subjective. Could someone enlighten me
on this one?
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Odd greetings
Date: 15 Dec 1992 22:47:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, eeigcn@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE (Gerry Callaghan) says:

>"Is it yourself thats in it?"
[Is it really Geery I see before me? :)]

>"It is surely, howisit going?"
[yep, whatcha up to these days?]

>"Oh pulling the devil by the tail as usual"
[No good, as usual]

>I went on my way and the thought occured to me that even though this
>conversation was in English it would not be understandable to anyone
>who did not grow up in Ireland.

Want to put a bet on that?  Some of us Yanks do read.:-)  

>Has anyone any examples of odd greetings?
>
"How they hanging?"

"Just fine.  'sup, dude?"

"Nothing much, same <excrement> different day"

or, on Fridays,
"Happy POETS day!"

[Put Off Everything, Tomorrows, Saturday]
There are also some ruder translations

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:52:26 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: God

True religion is not based on facts... but on a belief.... it's
subjective not objective..  That is not to say people don't experience
religion because they do... just like I experience the feelings of my
own belief... hmmm.. this is a toughie... I don't think Zahir meant to
offend you... I don't think he was trying to prove the existence of one
god.. but expressing his belief which is an encompassing one.. one god
that is honored by different peoples in different ways... perhaps, it
was limiting for poly deistic believers...

I guess a simply Happy Holidays would have beeen best..:)

/Emmy
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