HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mwp@iconix.oz.au (Michael Paddon)
Subject: Re: One-time Gor fan bitches
Organization: Iconix Pty Ltd (World Headquarters)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:13:13 GMT

In <1992Nov14.193904.8739@iscsvax.uni.edu> darnell8690@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>        I read Tarnsman when I was in eigth-grade, and right away was an
>instant fan.  I grew up without a father, and admired Tarl Cabot, and in
>stressful situation would try to act as he would have.  I guess what I liked
>about Cabot the most was that he was a single man who always stood against
>entire cities and armies to do what he thought was best, which usually intail
>freeing people from slavery and opression.  He did what he thought was right,
>even though the whole world of Gor was against him.
>        Then in Captive of Gor, Norman killed my most admired hero.  And what
>he did was so stupid.  He had Tarl captured, and was told that he had the
>choice of death or becoming a slave.  He chose becoming a slave and giving up
>his codes, changing him for ever.  What bugs me is that in all the other books
>he had faced either death or conforming to somebody's wish, and every other
>time he took death, and survived.  But this time was different, but why?  I
>think something was have happen in Norman's life, he must have gotten dumped on
>by some woman, so he took out his hatred in his writing.  Needless to say I
>stopped reading his books, it was just too painful to see what Tarl of Bristol
>had turned into.

Actually, I thought that this was a successful attempt to "mature" the
central character. Everyone faces the loss of youthful ideals, everyone
is forced to face the compromises of life sooner or later. One day you
wake up and realise that facing every situation with a "die on my feet"
attitude is *stupid*.

Tarl had the clear choice of feeding the fishes or living to fight another
day. In the real world, which choice would you make? There are some things
worth dying for; a friend, a homestone, one's Ubar perhaps. Getting speared
on one's knees in a swamp because one can't accept capture is not a
worthwhile exit.

I thought one of the most poignant moments of the series was when Tarl
explained this fact to the pallisade full of armed men he was about to
attack (_Hunters of Gor_).

As for the psychosexual content, Norman was clearly obsessive. By any
sane yardstick, the philosophy he forwarded was repugnant and shallow.
Enough said.

                                     Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        II
       IIII
  IIIII    IIIII    Michael Paddon
  IIIIII  IIIIII
  IIIIIIIIIIIIII    Iconix Pty Ltd           Email: mwp@iconix.oz.au
  IIII     IIIII    851 Dandenong Road,
  IIIII    IIIII    East Malvern,
  IIIII    IIIII    Victoria, 3145,          Telephone: +61 3 571 4244
  IIIII    IIIII    Australia.               Facsimile: +61 3 571 5346
  IIIII    IIIII
  IIIII    IIIII    My life is strewn with cowpats from the Devil's own herd!
  III        III               --- Black Adder
  IIIIIIIIIIIIII    
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:15023 alt.cyberpunk:5916
From: doom@elaine6.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner)
Subject: Re: Diamond-hard SF
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
	<1992Nov17.130534.20533@yang.earlham.edu>
	<1ecae0INNsqf@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Nov18.165819.20554@yang.earlham.edu> <By0sFF.5pC@techbook.com>
Date: 21 Nov 92 19:54:57


Just wanted to say that _Engines of Creation_ doesn't really
deserve to be called fiction, because if that's what it is,
then it's really a poor job, and actually I think it's a
great piece of speculative non-fiction.  

On the other hand _Unbounding the Future_ is so littered
with badly written, excessively detailed hypothetical
scenarios that I think you could call it a bad piece of SF.
I only managed to get about halfway through it. 

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kroth@david.wheaton.edu (Ken Roth)
Subject: Re: works of L. Ron Hubbard
Organization: Wheaton College, IL
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 07:41:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.202226.23939@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> corleyj@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>In article <1ej7h7INN5j0@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>>In article <76275112092100424@FREDONIA> BOOT1423@fredonia.BITNET  
>>("Stephen M. Boothe") writes:
>>> Hello,
>>>        I would like to know what other sci-fi fans think of L. Ron  
>>Hubbard's
>>> works of science fiction.  I know that his founding of the Church  
>>of
>>Most of Hubbard's later stuff is just plain bloated and bad.
>Hear, hear.  The "Invasion of Earth" dekology?  Please!
>My friend just informed me that his writing got a little
>bit better after he died...
>	Jason

Well, I would agree about the 'Invasion Earth' 10ology....

BUT, I loved the book Battlefield Earth, which I read three times.
One of the reasons that I enjoyed it is that after the Earth folks free the
earth, things get worse...you just can't win8-)

Ken


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
kroth@wheaton.uucp  ||  uunet!tellab5!wheaton!kroth  ||  They call me Gryfalia  
   "We believe, we believe, 'cause we felt it burning in our hearts"--77's
  "He is no fool who loses what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose."
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:41:17 -0500 
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: things I've read recently

This is a purely unsolicited commentary.  :-)  No spoilers.

_Timemaster_, Robert Forward. Recently published in hardback. I bought
it, which was a mistake. The book was apparently produced by taking two
speculative-science articles from _Analog_ (I think Forward wrote them,
but that's no excuse) and wrapping the thinnest of plots around them. 
    The gimmicks are: the predicted properties of negative matter (*not*
antimatter, but particles with negative mass); and the time-travel
properties of stable, controllable wormholes. (Negmatter is pure
speculation, as no such stuff is known or predicted to exist. However,
if it did, it would have the nifty properties described here, including
the ability to hold a wormhole open. The time-travel business is very
nearly legit; it's exactly what classical general relativity predicts.
Forward's reconciliation of time travel and "free will" is as good a
guess as can be made, without actually trying it.)
    I don't want to summarize the plot or characters, because they're so
sketchy that one paragraph would leave nothing left to tell.
    MHO: Wait until it's in paperback. Or in used-book stores. Or in the
library.

_Falcon_ and _Bone Dance_, Emma Bull. These came out a while ago in
paperback; I don't know how findable they still are. I was, as it were,
way pleased. Bull is now on my "to-buy" list.

_The Last Human_, Tom De Haven. This is the third "King's Tramp" book,
following _Walker of Worlds_ and _The End-Of-Everything Man_. Much like
the previous ones. The prose is informal, possibly distracting if you're
sensitive to that sort of thing. The plot is nearly incomprehensible;
you're just as confused as the protagonists, and they're plenty
confused. (Maybe everything will be explained at the end -- I hope.) The
societies are utterly strange. That's really why I like these books;
people go around doing things that are just as alien as *our* culture
would look from the outside. We have policemen, accountants, corporate
execs, etc, etc; the Lostwithal have finders, dispellers, art princes,
walkers, etc. Even that's misleading; they don't think of jobs the way
we do. That's just one example. 
    Maybe this sounds like a one-gimmick series. Well, no; you can
understand the plot and the various people's motivations; it just takes
more effort than you may be used to. Some of the protagonists are from
Earth; they're the anchor that keeps this from turning into word salad.
I dunno. Maybe you'll like it.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:15158 alt.cyberpunk:6064
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Diamond-hard SF
Date: 23 Nov 1992 16:29:13 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <By4nMF.5y1@nic.umass.edu> zgilbert@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Zvi Gilbert) writes:
>curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>>
>>And the purpose of fiction is to - one way or another - entertain.
>
>Whoa there, Curtis!

Eh-eh.  Now some of us get our kicks by watching Thews the Magnificent carve
defenceless Frops into little green bits with his mighty Longsword,
Cleaver-Of-Rutabagas.  And some of us get our kicks by watching Merine d'
Regauve, last of the Great Transvestites, come to terms with the sordid
banality of twentieth-century existence, and ponder the Big Questions of
Life and Society.

But kicks is kicks.  And if the former do choose to set their kicks apart
from the latter, or vicey-versa, then I do say this is bigotry, this is
elitism, this is snobbery in its ugliest dress, yes it be so, and thwap it I
do upside the head.

>All good fiction contains elements of dogma, even with respect to definition,
>c.

This indeedy is so.  If you are going to build a society it has to be a
something society.  Whatever that something may be.  And since most
somethings have been come up with here in this liddle garden planet of
ours sometime in the past or the future or whencever that may be, and
they all have their little parties of rats with pikes contending nobly
on their behalf, tiss impossible to dodge ze dogma.

And even if you are so ingenious to come up with a something which has
never been somethinged before, this in itself is a statement, a cry,
an act of dogmagenesis.

But all is not lost.  We can still be creative.  And how?  By taking
the little bits here, the little bits there, from one dogma and
another, cutting and snipping and pasting, building code according to
the laws of fiction and not the petty regulations of whatever pissant
ghetto in which your own ideology happens to reside, you can come up
with something really quite nice.  

And dogmagenesis is of course also creative.

Thus cyberpunk.  Gibson comes up with a nice plan for the building of
worlds - not so complex, but new, and bold, and shiny - and it makes a
fine novel.  A very fine novel indeed.  _Neuromancer_.  But what ho!
He reveals that he was not but taking the proverbial piss, oh no, he
_believes_ himself, always a mistake, and instead of coming up with
more nice, new, bold, shiny building plans - he forms a Movement.

And wonder of wonders the same building is no longer quite so new and
bold and shiny when built the second time.  Or the third.  Or the
thirtieth.

"Collapses in a pile of its own shit" is the phrase I want to use
here, but I can't find the proper matrix, so I'll just leave it out
in the sun.  Prima materia.

c
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jefft@athena.mit.edu (Jeff Tang)
Subject: Re: ASH OCK - Christopher Hinz
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:02:10 GMT

In article <1eqrjpINNnvf@transfer.stratus.com> savoia@sw.stratus.com (Rick Savoia) writes:

   In article <6sZ0s*Nr0@prolix.apana.org.au>, dac@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
   > I'm almost finished reading _ASH OCK_, Hinz's sequel to _Liege
   > Killer_. Triffic book. Is there a sequel out? [I haven't read the
   > first book, but that hasn't made for any difficulties with _ASH
   > OCK_]
   > 
   > Oh, and it isn't diamond hard SF either, but it is damned good,
   > with some nice surprises [and even nasty ones] in the story, and
   > some diverse plot lines.
   > 

   You should really read Liege-Killer.  It was definately
   the best in the series.  There is a sequel to ASH OCK
   but for the life of me, I can't remember the name of
   it now.  It came in second, IMHO, behind Liege-killer
   with Ash Ock being the worst of the three.

It's  Paratawa.   Not that I've managed to get a hold of this book,
anywhere.  (grrrr).

--
Jeff Tang
jefft@athena.mit.edu
From: mab@buphy.bu.edu (Michael Burstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Human Computers in SF--Help!
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:25:36 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1e8stnINN3ar@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> btowle@ecst.csuchico.edu (Brendon Blaire Towle) writes:
>
>Also, "The Golden Fleece" (I forgot the author)

Robert Sawyer. *Very* good book.

-- 
Michael A. Burstein
Physics Department, Boston University         mab@buphy.bu.edu
590 Commonwealth Ave.                         (617) 353-9437 (o)
Boston, MA 02215                              (617) 735-9433 (h)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Blood Music Question (was Re: The best sf story ever)
Organization: Yale University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 23:56:36 EST

In article <1992Nov20.205044.9438@ugle.unit.no>
leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) writes:
 
>
>In article <1992Nov19.022917.9068@highlite.uucp>, mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik) writes:
> > weverett@jarthur.claremont.edu (William M. Everett) writes:
> >
> > >	If you want to read a story that is chilling, insightful, and well
> > >explained, read 'Blood Music' by Greg Bear. I read that story in a collection,
> > >put down the book, and wouldn't read another story from the collection for
> > >a couple of days.
> >
> > Imho, read the novel version of *Blood Music*. It's one of my favorite
> > books. You'll dream your very bones are crystalizing overnight...
> >
> > 	-Mike
>
>Oh, YES.  The short story is a (metaphorical) high-explosive charge in its own
>right, but the full novel is a strategical nuke.  It is a killer.  I cannot
>recommend it highly enough.  (Why haven't I been able to make any of my friends
>read it yet?)
>
>It still gives me gooseflesh every time I just think about it--and it's been
>almost 5 years since I read it first.....
>
>Buy it.  I don't care if you have to steal the money to afford it; get hold of a
>copy, read it, and be amazed.  If you *have* read the short story version, you
>will be familiar with the basic concept....oh, but the novel takes the
>implications so much further.  I will not say any more about it than that, for
>fear of spoiling.....but I suppose you'll have understood my point by now?
>
 
   Being a poor little econ major, I want some information from all you
theoretical physicists out there.  In the novel _Blood Music_ (which I enjoyed
immensely, by the way), the physics of Informational Mechanics played a major
part in the ending.  Bear did a fairly good job of explaining it (IMHO as a
scientific illiterate,) so I think I get, at least the idea behind it at the
simplest level.
   The question I want to ask is:
     Is this for real?
     i.e. is it (somewhat) widely accepted?  Is it theoretically possible, or
is it another example of technobabble based on Schrondiger's Cat?  If it IS
possible, does the physics community take it seriously?
   Obviously, a full essay is not necessary (I probably won't be able to
understand it), but can somebody e-mail a short note giving some flavor of
how much of this stuff is taken seriously?
 
 
 
************************************************************************
   "INSANITY IS A VIRTUALLY IMPREGNABLE GAMBIT...
BUT YOU HAVE TO LAY THE GROUNDWORK EARLY IN THE GAME..."
 
    JUNSOK YANG (YANJUNA@YALEVM.YCC.EDU)
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: garyg@netcom.com (Gary Greene)
Subject: Re: DRACULA
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:50:30 GMT

hunt@dodo.cis.ohio-state.edu (kevin hunt) writes:



>     For those who havent yet seen DRACULA, I strongly suggest that you
>read the book first.  This way you will know what to expect, and will
>understand why the Count can do what he does and why he does it.  The
>movie can be confusing at times without this information.

>     And for all those people who like the vampire type genre, I strongly
>suggest the book "DRACULA UNBOUND" by Brian Aldiss.  A good read dispite
>the fact that I guessed the ending perfectly when I still had 70 pages to
>go.

This isn't really the place for it, but unless you're into special effects
I'd give FFC's version of the legend a pass.  Wait for the tape if you
must.  The movie has little to recommend it as film except the strong visuals
Copala is famous for.  Gary Oldfeld's portrayal is interesting, but development
of plot and characters are weak.  The movie seems to pass from one scene to 
another in a dream, like disconnected trailers for a film advertisment.  And
Van Helsing is either under or over written ...he's either an unredeaming nut
as displayed in the final cut (underwritten) or pork sausage (over written or
at least over played for what makes it to the screen); its hard to decide which.
This is not a literate film.  In the end, it was boring in the last half.

Respects,

Gary Greene
Santa Clara, California				garyg@netcom.com
From: mab@buphy.bu.edu (Michael Burstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Asimov List (was Re: Foundation and Nemesis)
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:25:09 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <9211161759.AA08640@brachot.jct.ac.il> pomerant@BRACHOT.JCT.AC.IL (ami pomerantz 23-126) writes:
>The first thought is the right though (at least as I think it to be)
>If you want any deeper information there is an ASIMOV-L list. I think its 
>at ASIMOV-L@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU but I`m not quite shure.

It's ASIMOV-L@UTDALLAS.BITNET. It's currently a very low traffic list,
-- 
Michael A. Burstein
Physics Department, Boston University         mab@buphy.bu.edu
590 Commonwealth Ave.                         (617) 353-9437 (o)
Boston, MA 02215                              (617) 735-9433 (h)
From: mlo@bio-rad.COM (Mark L. Olson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A Fire Upon the Deep
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:44:10 GMT
Reply-To: mlo@bio-rad.com

Patrick Nielsen Hayden of Tor told me that A Fire Upon the Deep
has a paperback publication date of January 1993.  I suspect
that they knew that they had a probable Hugo nominee here and
want to get it into people's hands in time.

--mlo
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mark L. Olson    Bio-Rad / 237 Putnam Ave. / Cambridge, MA 02139
mlo@bio-rad.com                                     617-868-4330
From: ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The best sf story ever
Date: 18 Nov 1992 19:38:46 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: chagall.cns.caltech.edu

In article <urf.721998182@sw2001> urf@icl.se (The Inimitable) writes:
>mirage@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dean Joseph Sanvitale) writes:
>
>>The best sf story ever written, or at least one of the best, in my opinion
>>was PRESS ENTER which appeasr in Wolfheim's 1984 anthology.  
>
>Well, John Varley _is_ good, but this is hardly his best. The
>reason, I think, is that there is too little 'science' and too
>much 'horror' for my taste. It's just not plausible enough.

This is by far the best I've read by Varley.  Great suspense and
believable and captivating characters.  Who really cares about the
details of science?  After five years in grad school I personally
get my share of science during working hours.

-- Ojvind

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.cyberpunk
From: gsmith@lauren.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re: Diamond-hard SF
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:03:43 GMT

In article <BxtJ4w.FDs@techbook.com> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) writes:

>I second this, and go further.  Characters and plot are the
>exemplar components of mundane fiction.  I do not care to see them 
>at all...

>In good diamond-hard SF, mundane characterization or plot movement 
>is edited out, right along with the bad grammar, violations of the 
>laws of physics, cliched ideas, engineering illiteracy, economic
>illiteracy, and other crap that we should not have to put up with.   

Are there any examples of diamond hard sf?  Forward is pretty good
at eliminating all characters and plot, but fails when it comes to
not violating known laws.  I can't think of who else you could
be talking about.

-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
From: Beth.Friedman@p5.f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Beth Friedman)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Hugo Recommendations
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 20:54:50 -0600

 ECL> To this list I would add Connie Willis's DOOMSDAY 
 ECL> BOOK,

I just read DOOMSDAY BOOK (in fact, I hunted it down as a result of your review,
if truth be told).  I enjoyed it quite a bit, and second the recommendation, but
feel that it would have benefitted quite a bit from a more stringent pass by the
copyeditor (or a less stringent use of the "stet" stamp, as the case may be). 
Just minor stuff, but it occasionally grated.

Also, the Oxford portion of the book is peopled by too few characters. 
Dunworthy keeps running into the same people, even though there is clearly a mob
there.  For that matter, the minor characters seem to be less real people than
collections of idiosyncrasies.  I refer especially to Finch and the two
Gaddsons.

There was also what I suspect is a case of the imitative fallacy -- just because
it happens in real life doesn't make it a good book.  I refer, for example, to
certain episodes where someone tries and fails several times to accomplish
something -- the attempts to hunt down Basingame in Scotland, and Kivrin's
attempts to talk with Gawyn to pin down the drop site.  
   
It's still a good book, but I wish there had been one more editing pass.

 * Origin: Beth's Point: Minneapolis, MN (1:282/341.5)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Edward E. Smith, Ph.D?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 17:44:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov18.162922.14196@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> fong_jh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Julian H Fong) writes:
>	A quick question: In what subject did E. E. "Doc" Smith get his
>doctorate?

Chemistry.  He spent most of his working life developing new and better
baking powders for (I think) Nabisco.


Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
From: dbasinge@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Basinger)
Subject: Re: Highlander
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 05:07:00 GMT

In Highlander the tv show, is Richie (the punk) an immortal. Some
shows hint that he is and some shows hints that he isn't.

Mike
-- 
D. Michael Basinger: Not Speaking for Indiana University 
dbasinge@silver.ucs.indiana.edu		
dbasinge@indiana.BITNET (Bitnet)
dbasinge@arapahoe.ucs.indiana.edu (NeXT Mail)
From: cgallagher@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
Subject: Re: Star Trek - TNG mail group
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:16:43 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <2B082298@ssd0.laafb.af.mil>, KitchenRN@SSD0.LAAFB.AF.MIL writes:
> Could somebody tell me if there is a mail group for Star Trek - The Next 
> Generation?  I don't have BITNET access, so if there is an Internet 
> address, I would apprectiate that.  You can e-mail if you don't want to post 
> the answer.  Thanx.
> 
> Rick Kitchen
> kitchenrn@space.laafb.af.mil
> 


	If there is a ST:TNG mailing list, pleadse post.  I'm sure 
others are interested too.

Thanks

Colin

    ______      
   | ---- |   	Colin R. Y. Gallagher    
   ||    ||	CGALLAGHER@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
   | ---- |	"Me not like Bill Gates?  Why I worship the ground
   |   -- |	 he slithers on!"
    ======               


Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.tv:5124 rec.arts.startrek.current:18825 rec.arts.startrek.misc:11772