HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Announcement of new journal
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:02:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EfGuhZq00WB6IA2KUG
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Good gentles,

I was rather pleased and surprised to find that the academics at the
University of Washington are publishing a scholarly journal named
"Aestel," since "AEstel" is the name of the newsletter for the
principality of AEthelmearc.  I served as the first editor of
the AEstel, before we became a formal principality, and chose
the name because it meant a pointer or bookmark (like a teacher's
pointer) and/or also a "little spear" or "little pikestaff."
Considering that the East Kingdom's newsletter is the "Pikestaff"
it seemed appropriate... ;-)

Of course, the AEstel Herald is based in An Tir, so perhaps the
academics had a closer influence... ;-)

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Hmmm...  given Ilaine's sign-off concerning kittens, perhaps we
can re-write the old saw about an infinite number of monkeys for
an infinite amount of time eventually typing the complete works
of Shakespeare to suggest that an infinite number of kittens in
the same period could eventually re-create the Bayeax Tapestry!

Take care, friends -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca (Donna Hrynkiw)
Subject: Tablet Weaving and Collingwood
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:53:00 GMT

Hello folks. Although I'm chronically behind on my Rialto reading, I think
this is important enough to be sent out now.

Any serious tablet/card weaver knows that "Techniques of Tablet Weaving" by
Peter Collingwood is *THE* reference on the topic. Unfortunately, it has
been out of print for some time and is nigh on impossible to find used. I
had dispaired of ever owning my own copy and counted myself lucky that my
local public library has a copy.

Now hope is in sight. Lady Saewyn Silfrhrafn has done some investigative
letter-writing and has received some GREAT news. Her message to the
card-weaver's mailing list appears below. Please pass the message around to
your local cardweavers and newsletters.

Elizabeth Braidwood
donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca

-----------------

My friends--
  I have just received a VERY gracious letter from Peter Collingwood. Yes,
THAT Peter Collingwood, author of Techniques of Tablet Weaving (the card
weaver's Bible). In his letter he asks "if you can help me in persuading
the University of Washington Press to reprint it. They have a policy of
reprinting books which don't make a fortune but which are considered to be
important enough to keep available." All right folks, let's start writing!
The more letters which are received, the better chance we have of pulling
this off. Here's the pertinent information:
	Author: Peter Collingwood
	Title: The Techniques of Tablet Weaving
	Pub: Watson-Guptill, 1982
	ISBN: 0823052559
and the person to write to is:
	Marilyn Trueblood, Editor
	University of Washington Press
	Box 50096
	Seattle, WA 98145-5096
So tell all your friends! Go to your local weaving shop and spread the
word, tell your local and Kingdom Arts Master/Mistress, place an ad in
your local and Kingdom newsletter. One of you computer-literate types,
please post this info to the Rialto! If there's a textile-arts/weaving
EB, post it there too!
  Now for a little added incentive --
  I work for the University of Washington. One of my "perks" is 10% off
any book published by the University of Washington Press .....
					Saewynn Silfrhrafn
					Barony of Madrone, An Tir
"Yoicks! and away!" <CRUNCH>--D. Duck
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jdoucette@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (I rush forward with my spear set in a charge!)
Subject: Leader/follower ratio
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Holland College - Charlottetown PEI
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 05:14:00 GMT

	One little thing on the 10% leader/90% follower thing.  That's not 
an argument that only 10% of the people are thinking human beings.  It is 
merely a fact.
	When I took my Junior Leaders Course, they taught us that in any 
given group, approx. 1 in 10 will be the take the initiative type, the 
insiprer.  8 of the group will be people who are basically followers; they 
prefer to follow and all other thing being equal will do what the leader (
not that 1 in 10 guy, but who is in charge of the group) tells them to.  
The leader doesn't really have to worry about them making trouble.  And 
then there is that bad apple, the one who is constantly whining.  Him the 
leader spends most of his time on.
	Now, this doesn't imply that the masses of the SCA are mere cattle 
to be led around by an elitist upper-class.  In fact, it doesn't imply 
anything.  All it does do is help prepare a leader for the personality 
conflicts he should expect when leading any particular group.
	And that is the only way that statement should be interpreted.

John Doucette, SCAdian-in-waiting

Go maire tu i bhfad agus rath.

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: Crown tourneys
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:32:15 GMT


Greetings to all, from Vajk!

I have seen it stated recently, and also in the past., that kings
(or queens) were not elected to their position.  I have seen no
documentation for this, and know of quite a few instances, at
least, where this is not the case.  

My understanding is that the absolute hereditary right to 
succession to the throne was developed over a period of many
centuries, and was done to counter the tendency for a rebel who 
did not like the CHOICE of king, as determined, usually, by the
nobles.  The nobles got together and ELECTED a king, but if 
someone else wanted the job badly enough, he and his backers
challenged.  If the challenge was lost, the reberl could still
fight a war over it.

Does anyone have GOOD documentation for houw the hereditary
right of succession developed?

Vajk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: zrwb15@hou.amoco.com (R. Wendel Bordelon, 594w3)
Subject: wInterKingdom information, please. 
Reply-To: zrwb15@hou.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:05:44 GMT

Greetings to those nobles gathered here at the bridge!
I am looking for a contact in the northern reaches of Ansteorra in regards
to the wInterKingdom event.  Please e-mail me at the address below.
Thank you.

--Francois
---
R. Wendel Bordelon    
Amoco Production Co    | Internet zrwb15@hou.amoco.com  
501 WestLake Park Blvd | X.400 c=US a=ATTMAIL p=AMOCO s=Bordelon g=Wendel i=W
Houston, Tx 77256 USA  | Phone: +1 713-584-7535      <I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF> 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 15:50:28 GMT

In article <726159969.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
>
>    Mark Cochran wrote:
> MA> Sorry Tadhg, I guess you don't count as a Rialto Geek.
>
>    What a pity....
>
I knew that was going to break your heart...

> MA> How was your score on the Heraldry Geek test though?
>
>    What Heraldry Geek test?
>
You didn't take the Heraldry Geek Test? Can somebody out there who
keeps archives mail it to him? I' m sure you'd do better on that one
Tadhg.

Say Hi to anybody in the Steppes that remembers me. :)

--
	Mark Cochran 		Lord Edward Tremaine
	merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu	Aarquelle, Outlands
"It's easy. Just hold the dull part and hit him with the sharp part."
	- Don Alaric Greythorne of Glen Mor talking to a new fighter
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Legislating Authenticity
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:01:07 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

Greetings from Arval!

Grimkirk, I think it would be easier for us to understand your point if you
would explain what particular rumors you heard.  Among other things, we may
find that they are distorted or simply untrue; we've seen many examples of
similar rumors flying around without any basis in fact.

You wrote:

> ...would make such a move toward legislating authenticity by decrying the
> status quo as undesirable and unauthentic, as well as maintaining that
> the SCA's main thrust IS authenticity and theatre. This contradicts
> Corpora's written statements to the contrary. Corpora states that
> ATMOSPHERE via research and recreation is the goal, and specifically
> states that the SCA is "living history" and NOT dramatic performance.

I believe Corpora says nothing of the kind.  The closest thing I find is
section II.A:

   SOCIETY EVENTS DEFINED.  The term "Society event" refers to tournaments,
   feasts, and other activities whereby participants can display the
   results of their researches into period culture and technology in an
   environment which evokes the atmosphere of the Middle Ages and
   Renaissance.

This can be interpreted to imply that our goal is to "evoke... atmosphere"
rather than to re-enact history, but that's a very long leap of logic.
Corpora makes no explicit reference to living history, dramatic or
theatrical performance, and this is the only place it uses the word
"atmosphere."  The purpose of the Society is defined in the Articles of
Incorporation, article II, which says:

   The purposes for which this corporation is formed include:

   a) Research and education in the field of pre-17th-Century Western
   Culture.

   b) Generally, to engage in research; publish material of relevance and
   interest to the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture; to present
   activities and events which re-create the environment of said era, such
   as, but not limited to, tournaments, jousts, fairs, dances, classes, et
   cetera; to acquire authentic or reproduced replicas of chattels
   representative of said era; and to collect a library.

I find nothing in these passages or elsewhere which precludes an SCA branch
from "dramatic performance" (by which I think you mean re-enactment as
opposed to re-creation).


That having been said, I would note that I agree with those who have argued
against legislating authenticity requirements.  I don't think that is an
effective means to the goal of promoting interest in more authentic
re-creation.  As Justin has noted, laws can't change the culture and if the
culture changes the laws aren't needed.  What we _do_ need to do is to
remove the laws which impede authentic re-creation.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: recreating the middle ages
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:36:00 GMT

Michel du Flambard points out that Medieval Romance has possibly not
got a lot to do with actual medieval life; in terms of the nuts and bolts
thereof, I am prone to agree with him.

However, the two choices being advanced were 'historical recreation' as a
basis and 'Arthurian romance' as a basis; my desire was to offer a third
choice, 'providing a network to support the recreation of medieval skills'.

This is not just because I would feel trapped between a choice of being
invisible and being a lout, but also because it removes the basis for
making value judgements from the general to the personal.  (Instead of
being asked 'is that authentic' (meaning, does it conform to the questioner's
beliefs about a consensus definiton of 'authentic') or being told 'that
wasn't emotionally moving in a romantic way' (meaning that either they
didn't like it or it wasn't in accord with their understanding of 'romantic')
I have the hope of being asked 'how did you do that?' or 'what did you
do that with?'  I would much rather get into a friendly wrangle with
someone over processes than have to figure out what standard they are
trying to apply on the fly.

I am leaving fantasy right out of this, because fantasy is inherently
personal.  Fantasy as a basis would thus require people who do not share
whichever fantasy is choosen as the basis to support it, and I regard
attempts to get things of an emotional nature that other people are
obliged to provide as socially poisonous.   (In addition to being
impolite and fruitless.)

Graydon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
saundrsg@               "Praise then Darkness and Creation unfinished"
   qucdn.queensu.ca                   - U. K. LeGuin
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dollar Cost of Awards
From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:52:47 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <g292m_d@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>My lord, I'll concede your point, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean.

Um yes,
	I'll conceed that point too, a few people have mailed me about it.
I was trying to say to Graydon that I thought that effort and money were an
intrinsic part of the SCA award structure, and so requiring a largish
investment to gain an award for something like period archery was not
really out of line with the general practice already present in other awards.

In fact if the quoted $1500CAN is all that is required plus some time, then
perhaps that award really comes cheap. :-)

What you get out is proportional to what you put in.
To condense a mail I got from Bertram rather cruelly.

Arenwald von Hagenburg.

-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept		ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.			"Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144						-ME
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David Tallan)
Subject: Re: recreating the middle ages
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 12:43:04 GMT

Graybon has written:
>I've got a problem with this - it involves things I regard as unethical.
>
>For instance, being a proper Hundred Year's archer would involve (to stick
>to the typical) a tendency to loot anything not bolted down, get roaring
>drunk (if possible), wench indiscriminately, and sometimes shoot at heralds.
>I have no desire to act like that.

Accepting that if there are n paricipants in the SCA there are
probably n+1 views as to what we do and why, still I seem to remember
being told around the time that I joined, and hearing others told
since, that we _selectively_ re-create the Middle Ages.

Thus, we don't strive to recreate the bubonic plague, the percentage
of nobility to peasantry is perhaps higher than would be found in
most real medieval societies, and tolerance (for example, religious
tolerance) is more prevalent than might have been the case.

In addition, our re-creation of what we do re-create is usually
restrained by mundane legalities. Thus when re-creating medieval
armed combat (something that has made it past our selective filters)
we still try our best not to _really_ kill anyone.

I think these two restrictions on medieval recreation should solve
your ethical conflicts. Looting and shooting at heralds [tempting
though some might find them :-^)] would seem to be in direct conflict
with mundane law. Getting roaring drunk and wenching indiscriminately
could be items, like the bubonic plague, that you shoose not to
re-create. The goal to strive for is not necessarily to re-create
everything that existed in period, but to strive to ensure that what
you do re-create existed.

Of course, speaking of the bubonic plague, whilst re-creating an
archer of the Hundred Years War, it is possible to recreate one who,
through seeing or hearing of the terrible plague as grown concerned
about the state of his soul and thus has an excuse to avoid the
Mortal Sins of Lechery and Drunkeness (a subcategory of Gluttony).

This may not be the typical, but it is certainly reasonable.

David Tallan (who you would never guess has been known to show up at
              Pennsic as Thomas the Pardoner)
David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: leeu@nobeltech.se (Leif Euren)
Subject: Re: William's mention of authentic equipment
Organization: NobelTech AB
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 11:16:03 GMT

Graydon wrote:
>This got me thinking; what exactly would I need to have *really*
>authentic archery equipment?
>
>A furnace to refine iron ore in by a period technique.
>Some iron ore of the appropriate type.

To which Vittorio del Fabbro responds:
>
>...[And so on. You've seen this kind of thing before]...
>
>Nonsense.
:
>Having a more authentic piece of equipment for any SCA activity doesn't 
>mean having to make it from scratch. I see that argument advanced too 
>often as an excuse for not making any effort at all.

A piece is authentic enough if you can't tell it from the Real Thing.
How it was made doesn't matter to me.

Myself, I enjoy doing things the period way, because the I *know* it's
right.  I may write a document with a goose quill and my own ink, and
feel the satisfaction when I'm finished.  But seeing a document made
by some other person, and it's not different from mine, it doesn't
disturb me. It's authentic enough!

  your humble servant
  Peder Klingrode                         | Leif Euren    Stockholm, Sweden
  Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald, East   | leeu@nobeltech.se

    NOTE: All opinions are my own, even if my employer claims otherwise!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Lilies VII
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:16:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.175350.14702@odin.corp.sgi.com> lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy) writes:
>
>I know scheduling is difficult when you get this many Kingdoms together,
>but this seems to be scheduled opposite the West kingdoms Crown Tournement.
>So the best won't be there. How did this happen?
>

Undoubtedly an Eastern plot.

Rhys
Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:17562 news.answers:5050
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tadhg's Preferred Geographic Area 
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 00:44:06 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Unto Mikjal Annarbjorn and others on the Rialto does Pagan le Chaunster send 
Greetings! 

Thanks for writing up the geography lesson.  While discussing this matter 
with Tadhg I also had a look at what a group with such scope would include.  
I decided that it could be quite fun, and would make research and the 
judgement of "authenticity" far easier.  Only two main languages (which 
diverge quite nicely through the period), fairly well-defined sources (how 
accurate and useful they are are matters open to question, but that's the 
same anywhere), etc.  I can't understand why Tadhg excludes the Languedoc -- 
how can you possibly do "the Middle Ages" without the full flowering of the 
troubadour tradition? -- but that seems a matter of personal preference.  ]-) 

I also decided that it was not "the SCA", which has a far wider scope.

Which brings me to Bertram's missives, and the discussion of affiliated, 
household, or other quasi-SCA groups with better-defined historical purviews.  
I like the idea.  Lots.  I also like the idea of keeping the SCA as a 
"generic medieval" meeting place for these groups and for all the other 
gentles who perhaps do not wish to focus their interests so closely.

Pagan le Chuanster
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 10 Jan 93 09:57:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan10.095735.19260
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

In article <726478788.F00005@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> Depends on what you mean by "longships". What is shown in the Bayeaux
> Tapestry is not what most people (even in the SCA) think of when they
> think of "Norse longships".  

  I'm certainly not an expert on the subject.  I merely posited that the Norman
  ships on the Bayeaux Tapestry looked quite "Longship"-like to me, especially
  given what the period drawings and engravings of 'actual' longships look
  like.  And given the knowledge that in damn near all the other Viking
  settlements the only thing left of the Vikings in two generations were
  blonde hair, a few placenames and a lot of skills, it didn't seem unrealistic
  that the Norman boats (Normandy being one of the aforementioned Viking set-
  tlements) would be made along the same lines as Viking longships.  That's
  it;  no more, no less.  So, if you'd be so kind, could you explain what
  they really are?              

> And the "axes" (Remember? Moreach mentioned
> "axes") in the Bayeaux tapestry are more often wielded by the English than
> the Normans, who had a distressing tendency to prefer lances and swords.

  I wasn't discussing the axes.  I was discussing the "longships".

  But, if you want to be pedantic about it, the English forces depicted on the
  Tapestry are all wearing *Norman* armor and using *Norman* shields.  In-
  accurate?  Certainly.  But the artist was Norman.  So, how much weight should
  we place on any one bit of "evidence"?

> Sorry, didn't know that watching movies was something to be ashamed of.
> (And people complain that *I* don't have a sense of humor...!) 

  It sounds like an unwarranted attack, it gets treated like an unwarranted
  attack.

> (Could we be a little less hypersensitive when we are not the one
> addressed with the comment? Moreach, who wrote the original comment, would
> have standing to complain - not that I'd care, but she'd have standing;
> you, on the other hand, have nothing ... other than, perhaps, a long
> nose.)

  You make comments in a *public* forum, you invite public comment, especially
  when part of that public thinks he might have some info of relevance.

  If you don't want "Long-noses" then take it to e-mail.
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 ---------------------------- REUNITE GONDWANALAND ----------------------------