HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: parson_r@cubldr.colorado.edu (Robert Parson)
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:59:55 GMT

> In article <1992Dec13.102103.13683@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
> 
>    Regarding Ulick Stafford's comments on Cromwell, I also
>    remember the Ladybird books being quite filledwith praise for
>    Cromwell. My impression of Cromwell from modern historiography
>    was that he was feared by everyone and loved by few. To this day, I
>    have to ask whether those children's books were typical of English
>    attitude, or what? As I've said, most historians, left or right,
>    view Cromwell as an intolerant dictator.
> 
 Interestingly enough, Winston Churchill (who can hardly be considered either
 a bleeding-heart liberal or an Irish sympathizer) condemns Cromwell's Irish
 atrocities quite strongy in "History of the English Speaking Peoples." He
 rejects the usual 'judge by the standards of his own time' argument outright.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8147 soc.culture.british:17513
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 15 Dec 92 11:41:38 GMT
	<1992Dec14.125659.9372@maths.nott.ac.uk>
	<1992Dec14.173447.24844@cs.tcd.ie>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Dec14.173447.24844@cs.tcd.ie> riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:

   Presumably the wealth transferred from Ireland to Britain during
   British Rule has gone on to generate further wealth, jobs, investment,
   etc. in Britain while its absence has had a negative effect here.

You have a pretty optimistic idea of the niceness/patriotism of British rich
people!  Vast amounts of British wealth are invested in other countries (USA,
for example) instead of in Britain.
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

		
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8322 soc.culture.british:17835 soc.culture.canada:9532 sci.lang:8482
From: sherlock@sleuth.eskimo.com (Jonathan Marsh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Gaelic-l press release
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:01:04 GMT
Organization: Perpetual Motion Machines Ltd.
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <1992Dec16.162453.13731@rdg.dec.com> cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>
> Here is a press release, written by the owners of Gaelic-l in Irish and
    stuff deleted...
In translating the postscript into plain ASCII,
> errors may have crept in, particularly as my postscript to ASCII converter
> doesn't seem to handle hyphens at all.
    stuff deleted...

    Having just started to scan this group, possibly you might post this again?
Nothing came through save the announcement.
-- 

    sherlock@sleuth.eskimo.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System)
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Organization: Massey University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <1992Dec15.212545.14968@PacBell.COM> <28339.9212151549@thor.cf.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 05:01:18 GMT

In article <28339.9212151549@thor.cf.ac.uk> Mr S J Morris 92,
spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk writes:
>
>Cromwell was one of the good guys. He had the task of governing Britain
>under virtually impossible circumstances -It wasn't
>perfect, obviously, but was immeasurably better than life under either
>Charles I, his predecessor, or Charles II and James II who followed him.
> If he ever became a 'dictator' in any sense of the
>word, it was reluctantly. (the rest deleted)

All of this sounds very much like the sanitized version that Matthew was
referring to. To whom (or how many) was he one of the good guys?  Life
was immeasurably better for whom?  all his cronies, or the Catholics, or
the Irish?  Presumably the sanitization process would have started during
his reign (of terror?), in a similar manner to which former USSR leaders
built up sacred reputations which only lasted as long they were in power.
 How did Cromwell succeed until relatively recently (even with the
Ladybird book historians).  Was there freedom of the press in those days?

These postings about Cromwell remind me of an incident a few years in 
Connolly train station (Amiens St, dublin).  There was a young american
tourist in the sweet-shop, who was getting on the Belfast bound train but
not intending to go the whole way and was considering getting off at
Drogheda (about 30 miles away). As he was paying for his ??(cookies,
newspaper or whatever), he asked the lady at the till if she knew
anything about Drogheda worth seeing or doing etc.  She paused for a
moment and then told him that all she knew was that there was a massacre
there some years ago, and then she got carried away with graphic
descriptions of how the people taking refuge in the Church were burnt
alive, etc, etc, and that even now there was still a skull in the church
(it actually belongs to St. Oliver Plunkett).  Of course she neglected to
say that all this had happened a long time ago and our tourist friend was
beginning to feel a little bit uneasy (and I wasn't feeling too good
myself!).  He then had a change of heart and asked her was there anything
to see or do in Dundalk (twenty miles further on). Again she paused, and
then confessed that she didn't know much. but thought there had been a
big massacre there was well. The tourist thanked her politely (presumably
for doing a wonderful job at promoting county Louth as a friendly place
to visit!!), and the last I saw of him he was trying to get a refund on
his ticket and was enquiring about catching a train from Heuston station
( from where trains go South and West).
--Cromwell wrath lives on----


 *******************************************
 Eamonn Gormley,  E-mail, E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz 
 *******************************************
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8148 soc.culture.british:17514 soc.culture.usa:9204
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: British interference in U.S. elections
Date: 15 Dec 92 11:51:39 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Dec14.175350.1546@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

   Not being a lawyer I don't know the answer to this, but are lawyers
   allowed to say to the jury "and by the way you can ignore what the old
   fart with the wig says, and make your own jugdement based on moral
   principles."

There was a case in England a few months ago where the two defendants in a
Cold War spy trial were found innocent by a jury, despite having freely
admitted that they were guilty!  The jury were protesting against the
heavy-handed way that the men had been treated by various state agencies, I
think.
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: cmylod@nl.oracle.com (Colum Mylod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Economist Article On Irish Election
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:15:26 GMT
Organization: Oracle Europe

In article <lisehgINN43n@news.bbn.com>, mbrennan@bbn.com (Maeve Brennan) writes:
|> Articles 2 and 3 have no practical merit, only symbolic.  I am in favour 
|> of removing them from the Irish constitution since they are understandably 
|> repugnant to Ulster Unionists.  I think that anything which Ireland can 
|> reasonably do to reduce the suspicion and fears of Ulster Unionists that 
|> they are being coerced into a united Ireland, is a good thing.

As pointed out elsewhere (I forget where) revoking Articles 2 & 3 might result in
Northerners loosing the right to Irish passports. Lawyers can jump in and correct
this. If true this would be a larger slap in the face to a grouping than any
nice symbolic concession to another grouping. Quite how the Republic could
justify continuing in the Anglo-Irish Agreement without these articles is also
open to question since NI would then no longer be legally "disputed territory".
By this you can take my view that either side turning its back would not be a Good
Thing.

|> How much time have you spent in Northern Ireland?  Have you talked to
|> ordinary Ulster Unionists?  Have you ever tried to understand their
|> point of view?
It's a pity they elect certain "extraordinary" Unionists who excell at discrimination
and poor intercommunity relations (a regret, not a flame.)
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is sago?
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:49:25 GMT
Organization: Not Philips.

In refd article, hiscrp@nuscc.nus.sg (C R Pennell) writes:
>Delicious, but
>it  makes you fat and gives you heart attacks (coconut milk is
>unbelievably high in chloresterol)

Eh, no.  Cholesterol is not found in vegetable products.  Coconut oil,
being one of the so called "tropical oils" is very high in _saturated fats_.

But yes, certainly bad for your cholesterol level.
-- 
Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  ray@cam.org           |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland Demands Democracy!
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:50:13 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1992Dec14.180127.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk> cabr01@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes:
>    This may be news to Netters. The BBC did not mention it on a national
>level. The Times was not aware of it today. This is all proof of the

The demo. was second item up on the main national news bulletin (BBC)
that
night.

alison
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8338 soc.culture.british:17865
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:46:36 EST

In article <1992Dec16.085714.23764@maths.tcd.ie> dwilkins@maths.tcd.ie (David Wilkins) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.173447.24844@cs.tcd.ie> riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:
>>Presumably the wealth transferred from Ireland to Britain during
>>British Rule has gone on to generate further wealth, jobs, investment,
>>etc. in Britain while its absence has had a negative effect here.
>
>It should be remembered in this regard that the British upper
>class, the ones who would have benefited from rents paid
>in Ireland, turned up their noses at wealth derived from
>`trade' or `manufactures'.  An acquaintance with the 19th

This is absurd. From where did the Whigs originate? The only people who were
in a position to get themselves rich from trade or manufactures were
those with high social and economic positions. it takes money to make money.
Also, there was no stricture against making money through commerce among
the higher classes in England, one of the reasons the Industrial Revolution
started there first. 

>century English novel from Jane Austen to Anthony Trollope
>and George Eliot indicates much of the manner in which
>the income of this class was spent or squandered: domestic
>servants, horses, horse-drawn carriages (apparently expensive
>to run), hospitality, parties, election expenses, wine,
>club subscriptions.  Any residue remaining would have
>been ploughed into acquiring land in England, or in
>the purchase of Government securities (Consols).

Yes, but the money squandered went somewhere, still circulated in
England. Whether it went to the marketplace or the government, the
transfer of wealth--real wealth--was effectively from Ireland, where
goods of high value were taken for far less their actual market 
value (meat, grains, ores, wool, etc) and very little of that money
ever was reinvested in Ireland.

Chris


Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8339 soc.culture.china:33267 soc.culture.croatia:173
From: chao6@husc11.harvard.edu (James Chao)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: World Model United Nations Conference in Czechoslovakia
Date: 21 Dec 92 05:23:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec21.002311.18731
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

To all those interested in international relations, politics, and the
United Nations: 

Harvard World Model United Nations (WorldMUN) is an international
conference that brings together university students and young
professionals from around the globe to siimulate the workings of the
United Nations.  The second annual WorldMUN conference will be held from
March 28, 1993, through March 31, 1993, at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  

Ten committees, representing the General Assembly, Economic and Social
Council, and Specialized Agencies of the United Nations, will discuss
issues from the actual UN agenda.  In addition to the formal debate of
resolutions, committee sessions will be augmented by presentations from
politicians, businessmen, scholars, and activists who have helped shape
the dramatic world events of recent years.

In this era of momentous political change, WorldMUN seeks to assess the
role of the United Nations in a new world order.  WorldMUN marks the first
truly international simulated United Nations where participants play the
roles of their own nation's ambassadors.  WorldMUN strives to teach
tomorrow's leaders about the United Nations and its methods of conflict
resolution.  It aims to foster skills in negotiation and debate, in order
that delegates may formulate resolutions on topics currently discussed in
the real United Nations.  These resolutions will be sent to the actual
United Nations committees.

WorldMUN 1993 will take place at the Hotel Diplomat in Prague,
Czechoslovakia.  The Hotel Diplomat is Prague's most modern conference
center.  Prague is both one of the most beautiful metropoles of Europe and
an ideal location for debating current world politics and the changing
role of the United Nations.

The Hotel diplomat is a luxury resort that offers restaurants, shops, a
night club, and fitness and spa equipment.  Delegates will stay at the
Hotel Diplomat for the reduced rate of 130DM/day double occupancy, which
includes two meals a day.

Delegate registration is $US60 per delegate.  For more information, please
reply to this e-mail address or write/fax:
Joshua A. Salomon, Secretary-General
Harvard World Model United Nations 1993
Suite 23, 1430 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138-3810
UNITED STATES

Telephone:  001-617-493-6995
Fax:  001-617-493-6995

James Chao
chao6@husc.harvard.edu
From: byardd@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: This Favourite Lie Again
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:12:24 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <27891@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell) writes:
> 
>  Of course they have a case. How can you argue with it? The damn Republic
> continues to look like the last bastion of 15th century thinking left
> in the western world - I am frequently shocked and disappointed at the

Thats funny coming from someone living in a country whree the Death Penalty
is still in operation.

Donal Byard,
Amnesty, UL.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scotland Demands Democracy!
Date: 16 Dec 92 09:52:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

In article <1992Dec15.153439.29505@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) >In the New York Times on sunday there was a long article about the march
>for scottish devolution/independence. It said that from 10,000 - 20,000
>people attended the march, and that it was a mixed bag of devolution and
>independence supporters. However, it noted that there was general
>agreement that Scotland had been disenranchised for more that 12 years.
>
"Disenfranchised" means "denied a vote". Scotland has not been
disenfranchised, in fact it has a rather generous entitlement
of MPs. The problem is that for the past 13 years, the whole of
the UK has elected a majority of Conservative MPs (hasn't cast
a majority of Conservative votes though), which have outweighed
the fact that Scotland has elected a majority of Labour MPs.

Would it be correct to say that a state in the USA which
carried on voting Democrat while outvoted by other states
which voted Republican was "disenfranchised"?

I don't recall Scots caring much about south-east England being
"disenfranchised" when it elected nearly all Conservative
MPs, but had a Labour government thanks to the large number of
Scottish Labour MPs. Neither do I hear much concern for the
non-Conservative voters of south-east England who don't even
have any MPs to speak for them in Parliament, due to the
Labour-Conservative pact which keeps the present undemocratic
electoral system, trading off an over-representation for Labour
in Scotland, Wales and northern England, for an
over-representation of the Conservatives in southern England.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Kilts
From: scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 23:54:34 +1300
Organization: Barbed Wire Cat Productions

I have a couple of questions.

1:  How is a person's right to wearing a particular clan tarten 
    determined.  Also how is clan affliation determined.
    
2:  My father was told by his Grandfather that the family tarten (kilt) 
    was the Black Douglas (Gray Douglas?).  I have never been able to 
    find my surname _Singers_ in the clan listings I have seen, but I did find a 
    story about _Drysdale_ a common family name being a renegade branch 
    of the Douglas clan.
    
    Given that I'm in New Zealand can someone direct to a good source of 
    information about these topics.

Robert Singers               | Nothing I say or do should be taken as
scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz | a reflection of any form of reality or
                             | consensual hallucination.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: The story of the Scottish flag
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 21:25:24 EST

In article <1992Dec11.165945.28764@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>From article <JIM.92Dec11122231@hunter.cs.strath.ac.uk>, by jim@cs.strath.ac.uk (Jim Reid):
>> In article <Byy478.Kpt@ecf.toronto.edu> ambidge@ecf.toronto.edu (Chris Ambidge) writes:
>> 
>> As for Queen Elizabeth, she is known as Elizabeth the Second. This is
>> misleading as the nation she rules has not had a Queen Elizabeth
>> before. Some Scots find this offensive, since Scotland has never
>> had a Queen called Elizabeth until now, although England had one
>> during the 17th(?) century. [In the early fifties, Scots nationalists
>> went about blowing up post boxes that had the EIIR - Elizabeth the
>> Second - crest on them. These were quickly withdrawn in Scotland.] 
>> 
>> Similar trouble is likely if/when Prince Charles succeeds - there
>> have been no Kings called Charles in Scotland, but two in England.
>> 
>> 		Jim
>
>Certainly Charles I and II ruled prior to the Union of the parliments
>but they both ruled after the Union of the Crowns, so weren't they also
>kings of Scotland (or rather Kings of the Scots, a subtle difference but

Absolutely. Since James VI of Scotland inherited the English thone in
1603 he became King of both Scotland and England--although he was called
different things in each country. His son Charles was Charles I in both,
however.

And Elizabeth ruled from 1558-1603, qualifying her as a 16th, not really
17th, century monarch.

Chris

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Cromwell
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:02:20 EST

In article <1992Dec15.141058.12455@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
>The Ladybird books reflect the "Whig interpretation" of
>history, the traditional view of history up till a few decades
>ago, in which everything is sanitised to suggest it was an
>inevtitable step in the path to progress. The well-known satire
>of this approach "1066 and all that" summarises Cromwell as
>"right but repulsive" and Charles I as "wrong but romantic".
>In fact this approach is now generally mocked as the very
>oposite of "political correctness".
>
>Cromwell is admired by some (e.g. Michael Foot, a former
>leader of the Labour Party) for opposing the "divine right of
>kings" and allowing religious freedm (except for Catholics).
>The defence of the then opposition to Catholicism, leading to
>the brutal repression in Ireland, was that if it were ever to
>be imposed in Britain it would bring in Spanish inquisition
>style oppression.
>
Thank you, Matthew. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
But i was surprised to hear that Cromwell still has his defenders in
England today--but then again, you mentioned Michael Foot as one of them
(which only goes to support my English father's conviction, that Foot
is a "Bloody idiot".)

Chris
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots Wha Hae lyrics
Date: 17 Dec 92 11:01:47 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Dec15.105419.23931@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:

   I don't know about sexist (come on, really?) but it doesn't make sense
   in English. 

Neither does the German national anthem.  Does it matter, really?

   Hopefully the age of the National State is over.

Hopefully not for *my* national state, thank you very much :-)
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: The Fairy Flag
Date: 15 Dec 1992 15:50:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Since there seems to be some interest in flags, can I ask a question?

My father was from Skye and used to talk about a Fairy Flag that 
was in Dunvegan Castle.  He claimed the flag was given to the MacLeods
and that it was to waved in time of deep trouble and that the battle
would be won by whoever had the flag.  He went on to say it had been
waved twice but he didn't say when and that it could be used only
once more and then it would disappear.

He was very superstitious and believed all this.  I don't know any
more about it. Is there anyone out there who does?

Thanks for the information.

-- 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic