HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: MacBeth wrongo (Was Prince of Thieves wrongoes)
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:03:58 GMT

In article <Bu8Bnz.LoM@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>>If you have spotted any other stupid wrongos, do tell.
>
>While I do appreciate the game of finding wrongos in "historical" flicks,
>there also has to be a line drawn between fact and fiction.  Did Macbeth
>murder King Duncan in his sleep?  Not likely.  Big deal.
I _believe_ that Duncan died on the field of battle, _with_ MacBetih
fighting on his side.
Also, MacBeth had a very legitimate claim to the throne, both through his
own family and his wife's, whose claim was even stronger.
I _think_ I read this in _The Medieval Encyclopedia_, but I've been
(occasionally) known to be wrong. ;-)

>
>The _Skeptical Inquirer_ published a review of the recent film _Flatliners_
>in which it castigated the movie for poor representation of near death
>experiences.  The SI was also missing the point that fiction is a sort of
>white lie -- it entertains, and sometimes even tells the truth, by telling
>untruths.
>
>Aryk Nusbacher
>

I actually stopped reading SI for this kind of reason--_no_ sense of
proportion!  I'd much rather see them take on the people who are obvious
charlatans and who _hurt_ others by preying on their beliefs or in some
cases desperation (e.g. the Chicago area ring of gypsies who now are doing
the "your money is accursed--give it to me and I'll uncurse it" racket)
than see them do a hatchet job on movies that weren't _meant_ as science
anyway!  

Enid Wrigglesworth/Ann Feeney

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:39:14 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings all.  Aryk asks:

>The Scotis nobles were richt laith
>To wet their cork-heiled schoon.
>But lang ere a' the play were played,
>Their hats, they swam aboon.
>	-The Ballad of Sir Patrick Spens
>
>Anybody know when Sir Patrick was written?

Well, er, no.  It is first published in _Percy's Reliques_, 1765 and later
for various volumes.  The number of versions, and the wide variance, by
not much later both suggest an early origin.  Motherwell suggests an 
historical origin at the court of Alexander III of Scotland (late 13th C),
which is at least as plausible as most arguments for the origins of most
ballads.  (This information and more can be found in Child.)

Short answer: the song appears to be old, but the earliest words we have
are 18th C, and late 18th at that.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad)
Subject: Re: consort gender
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:53:11 GMT

bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:

>Several other people have pointed out that there are no recorded
>examples of same-sex heads-of-state in period, and pointed out Bthe
>historically vaild alternatives.  I imagine that this fact, combined
>with the concerns of the appearance of official approval/disapproval
>were the main factors in the BoD's decision on the gender of landed
>nobility.

So there are recorded examples of people fighting each other with
weapons of rattan and duct tape whilst wearing armor made of plastic?
In period women regularly fought? Crowns were handed down by right 
of arm *only* and not by right of birth? Peers were created because
of their ability to organize tournaments or write prettily? Kings
and queens became dukes and duchesses after sitting on the throne
a couple of times?

I regret the sarcasm, but I get steamed whenever I hear SCAdians
appealing to historical accuracy as an excuse for bigotry and
homophobia. If we recreated the middle ages truly, there'd be an
awful lot of peasants, and a great deal of women sitting on the
sidelines doing nothing. It's not an option; why then is relegating
gay men and lesbians to invisible status sanctioned?

People who mistrust/dislike the SCA are not going to alter their
opinions just because the BOD tries to appease them by tacitly
approving their hatred. We may as well make the Society a place
that welcomes those who *do* want to participate in it.



-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elf-lad@aol.com         elflad0@glib.org
                                 thom.watson@p924.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7
From: vaughan8670@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mundane/SCA hopefull, needs German Surname refferences...
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:18:45 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Greetings All!

I am located in the Incipient Shire of La Grande Tente, and I am seeking some
references for a german surname.  I wanted to Ask the aid of this newsgroup
since I just found it.  I am a beginner in the SCA and very interested.
If anyone can help me in naming some manuscripts and Surname dictionaries, I
would be greatful.

Machs Gut!

Timothy Vaughan
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Modest Proposal
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 15:13:13 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Replying to Solveig's posting of a publication proposal, Aryk wrote:

> This bears a remarkable resemblance to the _Journal of Re-creative Research_
> (JRR), which was begun by the SCA Inc. a few years ago (1985?).  The JRR
> was launched with some fanfare, as a journal which would put the research
> produced by the SCA in front of interested Scadians, and also in the public
> domain.

I believe your information in inaccurate, Aryk.  My recollection is that
JRR was announced as an idea, but was never actually implemented.  As I
recall, the Board considered it and decided not to support it.  It was the
brainchild of Mistress Lyra d'Orleans and Master Yosef Alaric.  

I think that Solveig's idea is an excellent one, and I hope you will
present it to the Board.  You might want to discuss it with Master Yosef,
to get some idea of the problems encoutered by JRR, and perhaps with the
editors of the existing SCA publications.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Date: 10 Sep 92 06:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

> Are there really only 100 fighters in the West Kingdom?

What Hal said is more or less true.  It is a given that you fight in
the Crown list, even if you know you haven't a chance in hell of winning.
How you do at Crown is one of the yardsticks that measures your prowess
as a fighter.  Also, it is considered a good thing to fight for the
honor of the one whose favor you bear.

Soem people don't or can't fight in Crown for a variety of reasons.
Some are kingdom officers whose office duties involve the running of
Crown (Marshall, Chirurgeon, Vesper and Banner and Green Cloak Heralds,
ect.)  Some are injured.  Some are in serious danger of winning, and
if they can't honorably serve on the throne for various reasons (money,
work commitments, ect).  Some are injured.  Some couldn't make it to the
event.  Some have flunked armour inspection (it happens more than you
might think).  Some have no one to inspire them.  

< of course, there really are only a 100 fighters in the west.  We all
  know each other.  It's really just an evil plot...heh heh heh ;->

Oh, yes, while I'm at it, please remember that some can't spring the
airfare from Lochac or Oertha...

Twcs
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad)
Subject: Re: Same-sex consorts
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:18:49 GMT

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>Thom Watson wrote on the question of same-sex consorts.  My lord, you have
>made some excellent observations which deserve serious consideration.
>Unfortunately, you have mixed them with a great deal of angry rhetoric.  I

I do regret that. The rhetoric is obvious; it's a problem sometimes when
remembering real-life experiences while trying to write in context of
only what's been said online. I have experienced homophobia (yes, I
mean that word precisely) in the SCA and from SCAdians. Not often, but 
blatantly when it occurs. I have also experienced it in private e-mail 
in response to my postings in this thread. It drives some of the people
who support the current ruling, and I reacted to that. Unfortunately,
those are not often the ones who are willing to post, and it was
remiss of me to apply my feelings about such irrationality to those
who may have posted out of true concern for historical accuracy. I
hope they might see how their concern tacitly supports the bigotry of
the silent others, but it was unfair of me to tar all those who
argued with me with the brush of explicit homophobia.

Oddly, though, the anger wasn't intended. Certainly I feel it, but
I hoped to argue a position, not to vent my emotions. I hope I did at 
least a little of the former, but I suspect that most readers already
know their own minds on the issue. When I read my own replies, of course,
they don't sound at all clouded by anger.

>I would prefer to set the subject aside for the time being and take some
>time to think about it.  Thom, Lindorm, you may have me convinced, but I
>need to weigh all the arguments.  I hope we can come back to this in a few
>weeks, and continue the discussion as friends.

My hope has never been to alienate those who would be my friend. But
I too intend to leave this discussion. I'll save my energies now for
working to get the ruling changed.


-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elf-lad@aol.com         elflad0@glib.org
                                 thom.watson@p924.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:50:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.204137.29878@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>What do I really think?  I can't make up my mind.  On the one hand,
>I think that anyone who wants to, should be able to display the
>symbol of their choice, even if it doesn't mean what they think it
>means in a true medieval context.  It is their right to call down
>upon themselves the wrath of the ignorant, hate-mongering no-necks,
>and I support it.  I deplore the no-necks, and their actions.

Yeah.  Trouble is, said wrath falls on the lot of us.

[snip]

>  I'm glad as hell the decision wasn't mine.

Same here.  Messy business.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: Courtesy (was Re: awards recognition)
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:22:40 GMT

In article <1992Sep08.191324.23772@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>It is courtesy and
>respect for each other that makes the Society work, not rules and
>punishments.  Courts of Chivalry can never work as instruments of
>punishment, because they can't mete out any significant punishment.
>Short of throwing someone out of the Society altogether,
>official sanctions are useless.   >
>===========================================================================
>Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

The only sanction that I believe can work is the example of others.  If
all but a few hold themselves to the high standards of courtesy that we
profess, then their example will be the most potent reproach and
inducement to change that we could imagine.

Enid

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sommerfeld@apollo.hp.com (Bill Sommerfeld)
Subject: Re: cc: Mail SMTPUUCP 2.0 Undeliverable Message
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:03:37 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard

The persons responsible for this atrocity have been sacked... or at
least removed from the mailing list...

If at all possible, avoid the use of Cc: mail (a Lotus product, if I'm
not mistaken), because of its propensity to create mail explosions
like this.

				- Bill Sommerfeld
		SCA list maintainer in his copious (hah) spare time.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Role of Royalty (Was Same Sex Consorts)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 19:19:14 GMT
Reply-To: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)

In article <gehA68O00UjUM0j1Zg@andrew.cmu.edu>, Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> I'd like to see
|> an accompaning discussion of "What IS the role of royalty in the SCA,
|> and how best to fulfill that role".

Greetings from Euriol of Lothian:

I believe Margaret has found the critical point to this issue (my sincere
appreciation to you for stating this critical point). Most certainly does
the role of the royalty go beyond who we see sitting upon the throne and
wearing the crown, but how they represent us as a kingdom.

Of course, I have no direct experience, but in my many conversations
with Countess Linda she has stated frequently how demanding the position of
being a Queen was. I know that Linda had to deal with a lot of political
issues as our Queen. And I am glad that one of her projects has become a
reality (that was having kingdom events outside the central West Kingdom).
The were many arguements in favor and opposed to this idea and she and Phil
had to weigh these arguements carefully to arrive at their decision.

If the SCA wishes to have its membership represented appropriately, such that 
the King and Queen be of opposite gender so all its populace can be represented by the Royalty (for the SCA states it holds no religious on political alliance
to any specific group) it seems the only distinction left is the gender
of its members, and if the SCA does not hold an alliance to a specific gender
(i.e. there have been both King & Queens by Right of Arms) then it may be
necessary for proper representation to be reflected by the Royalty.

Just as a side note, I personally could care less about the gender of the
people who sit on the throne. The individual and how s/he may represent
the throne should be the issue of concern. I am not saying that there should
be restrictions placed on the populace so that only a select few may have
a chance to rule, everybody should have a chance, but I believe people should
be more aware of what is expected of them once they are invested in that
position. I currently have no real clue as what goes on behind the pagentry
of being Royalty, I guess that is why there is time for the upcoming royals
to be Crown Prince and Princess so they may have a chance to see these things
before jumping into the position with both feet.

Of course, its just another opinion.

Euriol
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Music, Bad German?!?
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:59:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Hello, again, from Angharad.  Ilaine says,

>	I'm not sure if this a philosophical difference or a semantic one,
>but I use the word 'period' to refer to a reproduction. The more 'period'
>the better. I would call a real medieval piece 'vintage' or 'that widget in
>museum x', or 'written in the xth century'. I think of period as a modern ideal
>to strive for, as an ideal it is not completely attainable, the more you study,
>the closer you get (like halving the distance each time you try - you can get
>close enough for all practical purposes).
>	Music isn't my field, I just dabble a bit but that won't stop me
>from babbling on. I think doing performances of actual medieval music on
>the correct instrument is only half the story. It should be the important part
>of an SCA musician's training, but the goal is to be able to write original
>period music correct in musical style, subject matter, instrumentation, and
>all the other things I don't know anything about. Garb mavens aren't expected
>to relentlessly turn out exact copies of the few vintage garments in museums.
>You make one or two to train you eye and hand, and then go on to experiment
>keeping in mind what you have learned about what people in your period thought
>looked good. We aren't just copycats, we are a living, breathing Society
>with a culture of our own, which happens to be based in history.
>							-Ilaine

I've already addressed this elsewhere (Ilaine seems to be saying that the
idea is to make what I called period-style songs, and I certainly agree that
this is one very desirable goal), but there are at least two dangling points
I'd like to mention.

The first is that there is a difference between the art of composition and
the art of performance.  Performance _is_ an art, and there is more to it
than just getting the music and letting lose.  There are entire books on
performing early music; the _performance_ may be what you work on perfecting.

The second is that there is creation, and there is creation without data.  
Garb mavens are not expected to turn out copy after copy -- but they _are_
expected to have grubbed around enough to tell when a creation wouldn't
have passed in the period in question.  In terms of music, that involves
a lot of digging.  In terms of popular (as opposed to ecclesiastic or art)
music, it involves _tons_ of it.

Just as garb mavens' their earlier creations often have problems, so do the
songs SCA composers turn out.  For this reason, it's a good idea to base
your music on real, period music -- and yes, I mean, pieces composed in
period -- just as a starting garb maven does well to base garb work on real,
period garb or representations of it, so as not to learn carefully to 
reproduce someone else's early mistakes.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Black Armor (was Re: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle ) )
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:05:30 GMT

In article <1360@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:

>Around here, most of the fighters who wear black are either members of House
>Elandris or wish they were.  I don't think the founder, _Baroness_ Morgan
>Elandris has testosterone poisoning. ;-) ;-) ;-)

To which I can only add these verses which I learned as a child:

Her eyes they sparkled like rivets.
She held a long spear in her hand.
And her name it was Morgan Elandris,
Commanding the black leather band.

Who wrote that anyway, Dagonell?

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves Wrongos
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:17:12 GMT

Based on the visual evidence I have seen, boots with cork wedge heels became
common upper-class footwear in the early to mid 16th century.  The stacked
leather heel that is familiar to us from cowboy boots became popular only at
the very end of the 16th century as a riding heel, but it caught on in London
very quickly and people wore their riding boots around town to display their
heels.  

I speak specifically of England when I say that stacked heels, as opposed to
wedge heels, were not worn in the Middle Ages.  Except, of course, by
Robin Hood.

The Scotis nobles were richt laith
To wet their cork-heiled schoon.
But lang ere a' the play were played,
Their hats, they swam aboon.
	-The Ballad of Sir Patrick Spens

Anybody know when Sir Patrick was written?

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:48:11 GMT

SCA Legend:

George Romero and Pennsic X

So George Romero was in Pittsburgh, filming a _Dead_ movie or something.  And
somebody tells him that if he just goes up to Slip'ry Rock, he can see this
big neat gathering.  So he goes.  And, incognito, he spends some time there.
And then he makes this movie about people who make a living jousting on
motorcycles.

Romero bases the characters in the movie on Arthurian characters, but on
another, deeper level, the characters are meant to represent personalities
that Romero met at Pennsic.  The real giveaway is Tom Savini as "Morgan",
the Mordred character.  He is, of course, meant to represent Laurelen
Darksbane.

Go figure.

Aryk Nusbacher
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:45:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Hello, all, especially Hal, from Angharad.

Hal quotes me, and says,

>>Remember the film "The Graduate"?  Dustin Hoffman's intro to the big time?
>>At the end, there's a scene where he's running across the Golden Gate
>>Bridge.  From what I've been told, to get a better shot, they reversed the 
>>directions of traffic on the two levels of the bridge.
>
>:-)
>
>This will support your thesis . . .
>
>That was the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.  They should him
>driving *from* SF on the top deck.  Going from SF, the traffic is on
>the lower deck.  
>
>(The Golden Gate Bridge has only *one* deck.)

Oh well -- Thanks for the correction!  Anyhow, it's better than most
urban myths do.  (I vaguely and distantly remember reading about it,
but it was megayears ago, and I'm from the wrong side of the country...)

Anyhow, the audiences in the Bay area reacted badly....

Fictions are fragile -- ours included!

Cheers all,

-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Iron chicken (was Re: bunny round ...)
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:26:25 GMT

That big, scary Schwarzkatz fellow wrote:

>>"Iron chicken" is a defencive stance where the 
>>sword hand is above the head(tip
>>down crossing the top of the shield) to protect the head.

>>otto

In article <Bu8sFw.Cs@acsu.buffalo.edu> ehrlich@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karen Ehrlich) writes:

>	Interesting.  If I've correctly interpreted your description of the
>stance, I believe it is usually known in these parts as a "hanging guard"
>(presumably because the sword hangs, tip down, from the hand).  Why chicken?
>Is the hilt of the sword thought to resemble a chicken's comb?

The term is a judgement on the fighter who uses the hanging guard.  He is
too afraid to leave his head defended like a *real man*, and instead he
cowers behind his sword.

I first heard the term in the Debatable Lands.

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca