From: davidch@ZIMMER.CSUFRESNO.EDU (David Choweller)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Why is free will so necessary?
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:29:15 GMT

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why is free will so necessary?
Summary: 
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Distribution: talk
Organization: California State University, Fresno
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In article <TOWFIQ.92Apr13105628@crisco.FTP.COM> towfiq@FTP.COM writes:
|   I offer this in the spirit of raising the discussion to another
|level:
|
|                            FREE WILL
|
|   Question.--Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he
|compelled and constrained?
|
|   Answer.--This question is one of the most important and abstruse of
|divine problems.  If God wills, another day, at the beginning of
|dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail;
|now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows.  Some
|things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity,
|tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is
|evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to
|the will of man.  But there are certain things to which man is forced

It is not clear.  Good and Evil actions are defined by the creator.  The
desires to do these actions are implanted by the creator.

|and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power,
|injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man,
|and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure
|them.  But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he
|commits them according to his own will.

What is "good" and what is "bad."  These are totally arbitrary behaviors
appropriate or inapproptiate to the circumstances the creator put his
creations in.

|
|   For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or

You see?  God defined "praising God" as good.  Why should you praise
God?  Did he work hard to create?  No.  He's omnipotent.

|he can be occupied with other thoughts.  He can be an enkindled light
|through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the
|world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material
|things.  He can be just or cruel.  These actions and these deeds are
|subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is

But who creates the desires of the creature?  Who instills these desires?

|responsible for them.
|
|   Now another question arises.  Man is absolutely helpless and
|dependent, since might and power belong especially to God.  Both
|exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will
|of the Most High.

Exactly.  That's why it'd difficult to distinguish God from Idi Amin.

|
|   It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes
|"one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour." (Romans 9:21)

Exactly.  You are already created for "dishonour" or "honour."  What's
the point of judging?

|Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter
|saying, "Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from
|hand to hand?"  The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings

Yes it does, if it is judged harshly because of it's inferiority, which
it was created with.

|are different.  That which is in the lowest state of existence, like
|the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, "O God, why have You
|not given me the vegetable perfections?"  In the same way, the plant
|has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections
|of the animal world.  Also it is not befitting for the animal to
|complain of the want of the human perfections.  No, all these things
|are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the
|perfections of their own degree.  The inferior beings, as we have
|said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of
|the superior perfections.  No, their progress must be in thcir own

But they have a right not to be expected to become perfect and be
judged for not acting perfect, when they have been created imperfect.

|state.
|
|   Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance
|of God.  If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil.
|But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is
|able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains
|absolutely helpless.  This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the
|help and assistance of God.  So this condition is like that of a ship
|which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power
|ceases, the ship cannot move at all.  Nevertheless, the rudder of the
|ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in
|the desired direction.  If it is directcd to the east, it goes to the
|east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west.  This
|motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the
|steam.
|
|   In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives
|power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to
|the man himself.  So if a king should appoint someone to be the

Again, "good" or "evil" is totally arbitrary.  Again, who implants
the desire to do a certain action, and why is this desire implanted?
If it's test, what's the purpose of this test.  If it's to distinguish
truth from falsehood, etc., why?

|governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and
|should show him the paths of justice and in justice according to the
|laws--if then this governor should commit injustice, although he
|should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be
|absolved from injustice.  But if he should act with justice, he would

This is a flawed analogy.  The king did not create the governor and
"make him for dishonour" previous to any actual committing of "injustice."
Also, the king is not responsible for what is justice and what is not,
as God is.  You cannot compare a king, a being with great, but limited 
powers with an omnipotent God.

|do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and
|satisfied.
|
|    That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man,

O.K.  So we finally get to the question of this thread.  Why?  Why Free Will?
You have just stated "the choice of good and evil belongs to man," i.e.,
"man has free will."  I ask again, why?

|under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of
|life, which comes from the Omnipotent.  The Kingdom of God is very
|great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power.  The servant
|cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and
|the Helper of all beings.
|
|    This question has become clearly explained.  Salutations!

As clear as mud.
--
                                                 davidch@zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU
"I have feelings too - like "My stomach hurts" or "I'm going crazy!"
                -- Homer to Lisa in _Moaning_Lisa_