From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty & Jewish Law
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:32:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.223342.2197@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>In article <9207271357.AA08783@nysernet.ORG> <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
>writes:
>>I would be very interested in why Michael Lax opposes the death penalty
>>based on Jewish values.
>>
>>Is it because it may be mistakenly applied? Is it because he feels that
>>the punishment is too severe? Is it because he feels the criminal may yet
>>be rehabilitated? Is it because he feels that it does damage to the people
>>carrying it out, even though the criminal may be deserving of it?
>>
>>Or could it be that it is not given uniformly? But that shouldn't be a
>>problem. One can hardly see that because half the people deserving of
>>punishment escape it, the other half also should.
>>
>>Please notice that I have answered a question not with a question, but with
>>many questions. Lifnim mishuras hadin.
>
>
>I oppose the death penalty on the Jewish values I was taught in Sunday school
>and by my parents.  Life is the highest value in Judiasm, and should be saved
>at almost any cost - except another life.  Many criminals may, in fact, be
>rehabilitated, though many more may not.  It is interesting to note that the

THis is not the case.  Life, even human life, while ranking highly
is not the highest value.  The Torah mandates that one must give up
ones life for three things (Idol Worshp, Ervah - usually translated
as sexual immorality, and Murder).  When the Torah mandates the
death penalty, it does not say unless the criminal can be
rehabilitated.  The Torah declares that the murderer must be taken
from the altar of Hashem if necessary to carry out the sentence.

>writer of the previous post considers unfair murder to be fair.  The death
>penalty is *not* a punishment, in any case.

According to the Torah, the death penalty is a mandated punishment
under the appropriate circumstances.

>
>I would be *very* interested in learning why a Jew would consider murder an
>acceptable solution to ANY problem.  Many Jews are vegeterians because they

If someone is in the category of rodef (chasing someone to kill
them), the Torah *requires* you to kill him.  The Torah
specifically says that if you catch a sneak thief in the house at
night (note this is a simplification of the full halachos) you are
allowed to kill him because he would probably kill you in order to
get away undetected.

>feel uncomfortable eating meat, although Judiasm is one of the FEW religions

A Jewish vegetarian should not be one because he is
"uncomfortable".  The reasons are many, including the treatment of
the animals before they are slaughtered, but they do not involve
raising an animal above the status of a human being.  THeir have
been threads before this on the subject and some of the posters
have said it much better than I can.  However, I will point out
that a Jewish vegetarian would still eat the meat of the required
sacrifices.

>that requires specific rituals in preparing animals to insure they are
>treated humanely.  Why are people so quick to turn human beings into
>something less than animal?  Is Jewish law so steeped in vengence?  I DO NOT

This is not a matter of vengeance, it is a matter of punishment.

>THINK SO.
>
>There is a wide variety of facts which indicate VERY STRONGLY that the death
>penalty, in this or any country, is an unfair abuse of government power that
>kills citizens.  It is arbitrary, it is expensive (costs at least twice as
>much as the death penalty), it kills INNOCENT PEOPLE (I assume the previous

I am not sure what you meant about the expense.  You said that the
death penalty is twice as expensive as the death penalty.  I assume
you mean that the repeated appeals etc of implementing the death
penalty is more expensive than the non-death penalty trials.
However, this is an argument that we are willing to spend money to
try to ensure we do it right.

>writer will say it is okay to kill a few innocent people so long as you get
>most of the guilty ones...), it is blatantly racist, and, finally, how can a

The implementation of a penalty is not an argument against the
penalty.  If the results are racially skewed thaen perhaps we
should apply it *more* to all the criminals convicted of capital
crimes, not less.

>Jew forget the last time the death penalty was used against us?
>

Just because murderers called themselves legal and what they were
doing as the death penalty does not mean that we cannot apply the
penalty correctly.  It is as if we said that because the Soviets
locked innocent people up in the Gulag or abused the psychiatric
hospital system we should not lock up criminals or maintain mental
health facilities.

Any system is subject to abuse.  the correct response is to try to
eliminate the abuses, not discard the system.

>Again, however, my concern is with Jewish study on the death penalty; I
>realize scripture reads fairly direct on the subject.  However, the Mishnah
>and Gemmorah read quite differently.  The debate on the death penalty in
>Jewish law is not as open shut as this poster would have us believe.

The debate in the Mishna and the Gemoroh is not on whether or not
the death penalty is correct but on whether or not it is being
applied correctly.  No one doubts that the death penalty is the
correct punishment for certain crimes.

>
>lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
>Michael Lax
>Austin, Texas

The Gemoroh states that he who is kind when he is supposed to be
cruel will be cruel when he is supposed to be kind.  Shaul left
Agag alive which led to Haman.  He was punished for this by losing
the kingdom.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish