HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tanner@bcsaic.boeing.com (Jim Tanner)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:11:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle

In article <55788@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> scotty@flash.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Scott Griffin) writes:
>
>
>In article <HINKMOND.92Aug18143800@igor.tamri.com>, hinkmond@tamri.com (Hinkmond Wong) writes:
>> 
>> 	2) You will save a lot on taxes due to the extended tax deduction for
>> 		30 years.  Why give the government more than necessary?
>
>         You only "save" money for money that you pay to the mortgage company.  
>         Would you rather pay me nothing or pay me $1000 and "save" $300?  
>> 
>> 	3) If your mortgage rate is 8% and you are investing the difference
>> 		in something with a rate of 15%, you are coming out ahead.
>
>         If you can find me a risk free 15% investment this year you are doing
>         better than 90% of the mutual fund managers.  Don't forget the tax you
>         will pay on the 15% yearly return.  The 8% return on the mortgage you
>         are paying off early is risk free and untaxed.

Not quite.  By paying early you are reducing your principal, which reduces
the interest you pay during the year, which reduces your tax deduction for
that year.  In effect, the 8% return should be treated as taxable for
purposes of comparison with other investments.
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,misc.consumers.house,misc.consumers
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Green Tree group for Home insurance - READ THIS
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 23:26:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.210614.18506@fid.morgan.com> joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) writes:

>I just spoke with the Green Tree Group (Phila, Pa) and they sell
>Home insurance. The BIG difference is you pay one larger sum instead
>of annual amounts AND you get all your money back if you cancel
>or move, etc.. They say they have been in business for almost 200
>years and are rated highly by A.M. BEST. They also encouraged me to check
>them out with my Commissioner of Insurance and GAVE me that phone#,
>without asking.

I've read about them. They invest the money, pay salaries, profits, and
claims out of the interest, and you get your money back when you cancel
the policy. You save lots of money on fees.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    |
George Patterson -  | Society calls everything difficult good
                    | and makes everything good difficult.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,misc.consumers.house,misc.consumers
From: joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins)
Subject: Green Tree group for Home insurance - READ THIS
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:06:14 GMT


I just spoke with the Green Tree Group (Phila, Pa) and they sell
Home insurance. The BIG difference is you pay one larger sum instead
of annual amounts AND you get all your money back if you cancel
or move, etc.. They say they have been in business for almost 200
years and are rated highly by A.M. BEST. They also encouraged me to check
them out with my Commissioner of Insurance and GAVE me that phone#,
without asking.

For me, instead of paying about $500/yr, I would pay about
$4800 once and then thats about it. And when I sell, I get my
money back.

Thats all I know right now - They are sending me more info....

If you know anything about them, please email me or post to
misc.consumers.

If it sounds intriguing to you, you can reach them at 1-800-468-8733.


Joe
joec@morgan.com


Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: wayner@cs.cornell.edu (Peter Wayner)
Subject: Auctions...
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:15:45 GMT

I'm moving to Baltimore MD and a friend of mine suggested I check
out the homes being auctioned to get a better price. Anyone have
any information that is either specifically about the Baltimore market or 
general about the auction process. 

For instance, most auctions require a $5000 deposit and the rest of
the money within 30 days. Is a mortgage hard to swing in that time? 
Or are auctions only for cash buyers?


-Peter

-- 
Peter Wayner   Department of Computer Science Cornell Univ. Ithaca, NY 14850
EMail:wayner@cs.cornell.edu    Office: 607-255-9202 or 255-1008
Home: 116 Oak Ave, Ithaca, NY 14850  Phone: 607-277-6678
From: duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: choosing an architect
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:46:32 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

/ hpfcso:misc.invest.real-estate / 18971@rhodes.aero.org / 11:11 am  Aug  5, 1992 /
I have been following the discussion on building a house with keen interest.
Right now I am in the process of interviewing several architects, and I am
not sure how to decide which one is best for my needs and budget. Among the
books on How-to-building-your-home, the section on choosing a design or
architect is very cursory and incomplete. I don't think fee and first
impression are reliable criteria for a wise decision. 

My requirements are very simple and general: 
4 bedrooms, 3 baths, large family room, large kitchen, 2 car
garage not to be the center of focus of the front elevation, balcony in the
rear to take full advantage of the view the lot has to offer. The exterior
design has to be contemporary to satisfy the notoriously narrow minded
nit-picking, holier-than-thou Design Review Board of the city.

Since many books emphasize the importance of thinking about the resale value
of the house, the question in my mind is how would I know if my architect is
way ahead of his time and therefore no one in the next 10-20 years can 
appreciate his creative design? I don't even know what is in and what is out
in the current residential architectual design, except for a recent survey
in California that indicates a popular desire for individually distinct
house style and the coming rejection of the monotonous 
and over-built Meditteranian style.

Advices and book recommendation are appreciated.
Quan
----------
Xref: sparky misc.invest.real-estate:497 misc.consumers.house:10950 misc.consumers:15300
From: amalik@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Alka Malik Sobti)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,misc.consumers.house,misc.consumers
Subject: Making an Offer for a Home with a LIEN and Title Insurance
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:21:41 GMT
Reply-To: amalik@bubba.ma30.bull.com
Distribution: misc
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA


I had posted this earlier but did not see any responses on the net and
did not get any responses mailed to me.  I am re-posting it.

	We are thinking of making an offer to a house.  But, we found out 
        from the seller's lawyer that there is a lien attached to the home.
 	Since I had never heard of liens, I would like to get some advice as 
	to 
		- should we not make an offer in a situation like this 
		  OR
		- if we do consider making an offer, then what should one
		  look out for and are there any special procedures in the
		  making/writing an offer, getting a real-estate lawyer, 
		  home-insurance etc. in order to get a clear title.  
		  What is covered in the title insurance?
	
		  And let's say that if the offer goes through and we buy 
		  the house with a clear title, then can something come up 
		  later on regarding the lien on the house (due to the
		  seller).  Or any other complications, etc. 

	I would like to get any suggestions/advice at the earliest.  I would
	prefer if you e-mail the responses to me directly since I hardly 
        read news.  Also, if I should be posting this message to some
	other newsgroup please let me know. 

	My e-mail address is:
		amalik@bubba.ma30.bull.com

	Thank you.

							- Alka
From: bies@sctc.com (Marty Bies)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:02:44 GMT
Organization: SCTC

Just to twist this thread a little more...
We are going to refinance soon, (isn't everybody :) and I was thinking of
going with the 30 year.  My reason for doing this is that we are going to
move in about 4 years and I thought putting the difference (what we are
paying now vs what we will pay monthly with the new mortgage) in an account
of some sort and not in equity would give us some additional cash for
closing costs and/or downpayment when we find our next house.
Now, is this liquidity a benefit?  Or is it as easy to use equity for costs
when finding a new house?  My thought was that knowing that the mortgage
will be paid off in 4 years 15 vs 30 doesn't mean much.

Flame away:}

Marty
bies@sctc.com
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: dbinford@convex.com (David Binford)
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:04:41 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

eroth@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (elizabeth.s.roth) writes:

>In article <HINKMOND.92Aug18143800@igor.tamri.com> hinkmond@tamri.com (Hinkmond Wong) writes:

>Here are the figures the way I see them:


>$50,000 @ 8% for 15 years:

>$- 77,905.75 paid out ($432.81 x 12 x 15)
>   50,000.00 principal being paid off
>    7,813.60 tax savings ($27,905.75 interest x 28%)
>  ----------
> - 20,092.14 actual cost
> + 84,014.48 savings ($432.81 x 12 x 15 at 15%)
> -  1,710.43 tax on interest  
>  ----------
>$+ 62,212.36 cash assets at end of 30 years 

>## OR ##

>$50,000 @8% for 30 years:

>-112,590.00 paid out ($312.75 x 12 x 30)
>  50,000.00 principal being paid off
>  17,525.20 tax savings ($62,590.00 interest x 28%)
> ----------
>- 45,064.80 actual cost
>+ 46,621.11 savings ($120.06 x 12 x 30 at 15%)
>-    111.86 tax on interest
> ----------
>$- 1,555.55 cash loss at end of 30 years



>Did I miss anything?

I think so.  If I understand what you are comparing :

1. 50,000 note @ 8% for yrs 0-15, THEN invest same payment @ 15% for yrs 15-30
			VS
2. 50,000 note @ 8% for yrs 0-30, and invest the between the 15 year note and
   the 30 year note (432.12-312.75=120.06) @ 15% for yrs 0-30

One problem is you are investing without compounding the interest. i.e.
you are only paying yourself interest on the investment payments, not the
investment itself.  If you run the same numbers with compounding interest
here is what I get for the investment lines of your example

> + 84,014.48 savings ($432.81 x 12 x 15 at 15%)
invest (432.81*12) at 15% compounded annually for 15 years = 215,116.61

>+ 46,621.11 savings ($120.06 x 12 x 30 at 15%)
invest (120.06*12) at 15% compounded annually for 30 years = 720,297.88


Looking it another way, you are borrowing at 8% and investing at 15%.  For
every dollar you don't send to the note and send to the investment, you
are make 7% on that dollar.

My own view on this (not that anyone actually asked for it), is to take out
a 30 year note.  If you have money to invest that does not need to be very
liquid, you put it where it gives you the best return.  If you can't find
an investment that will outperform your own loan, you "invest" in it and
"earn" the rate of your loan.
--
/*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ */
  Dave Binford		   (214) 497-4762	    dbinford@convex.COM
  Convex Computer Corp.  P.O. Box 833851   Richardson, Texas 75083-3851
/*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ */
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: 18 Aug 92 01:38:22 GMT
            <STEINMAN.92Aug16164535@hawk.is.morgan.com>
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

I've just had some e-mail reminding me that advance payments on the
principle (or is that principal?) are NOT tax-deductible.  Taking that
into consideration may cause the 15 year loan to actually become more
advantageous than I'd originally considered.  I'll have to compute it 
again, when I get a chance, in order to determine the "exact" impact.

Written in article <STEINMAN.92Aug16164535@hawk.is.morgan.com>
 by steinman@is.morgan.com (Jan Steinman):

: In article <19578@fritz.filenet.com> asylvain@felix.filenet.com 
:    (The Chipmunk) writes:
:
:> Despite the fact that 15 year loans sometimes go for a lower interest 
:> rate than 30 year loans, I STILL maintain it is MORE ADVANTAGEOUS to
:> just get a conventional 30 year loan.
:
: I agree, with one caveat: banks are basically incompetent. Any thing
: you do that cannot be handled by computer will break their system.  You
: might have to write a dozen or so letters over the life of the loan,
: and you should be prepared to keep your own books on the loan, so the
: bank doesn't get away with anything.   Factor in the value of this
: potential aggravation before you choose such a plan.

Well, the "aggravation factor" is certainly a definate consideration.

However, I've had banks which had a specific spot on their loan sheets
specifically designated for any principle-pre-payments you decided to
make.

Obviously, if they are NOT prepared to handle certain kinds of trans-
actions, you have a somewhat different animal to contend with.

It's unfortunate that you may not find out how the bank handles it until
after it's too late.  I suppose you could ask, but if the bank officers
are as lame as you say, and I don't doubt it, asking may not help.

Gadz, dontcha hate that?  Talking to folks who are SUPPOSED to KNOW
their business, and YOU gotta explain to THEM what's going on!  Sheesz!
There's an investment tip for ya ... if you find yourself training your
experts, it's time to get new experts!

: I've been lucky enough to have never dealt with a bank mortgage, but I
: am constantly fighting with banks over credit cards.

I suggest you switch banks!  Credit cards have reached "commodity" 
status.  There's no reason to put up with crap from any of 'em!

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee.
    -- Graham Summer
From: revesz@msc.cornell.edu (Peter Revesz)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Refinancing pittfalls?
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:21:22 GMT
Distribution: misc.invest.real-estate
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center

At preset I am at 9.625% 30 years fixed. I have got an offer
to refinance to 8.375% for 15 years at no closing cost.
Talking with the bank the guy said the only thing I will have
to pay is my attorney's fee and maybe the survey re-certification.
Nothing else. 

  No application fee, 
  no credit report fee
  no appraisal fee
  no commitment fee
  no title insurance fee
  no bank attorney fee
  no mortgage taxes
  no recording fee
  no points
  not required to increase the present mortgage ballance
  no obligation to accept any commitment or loan

What are the (possible) catches, pittfalls?
What are the right questions to ask?
Too good to be true?


 Thank you,
    Peter
          revesz@msc.cornell.edu
From: asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:44:55 GMT
            <75970004@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>
            <HINKMOND.92Aug18143800@igor.tamri.com>
Reply-To: asylvain@fritz.filenet.com (The Chipmunk)
Organization: Foundation for the Increased Wealth of Chipmunks

I responded to this once, but it got nuked.  'Course, it might have only
been partially nuked, so you might see more than one response.

Sorry about that, folks.

Written in article <HINKMOND.92Aug18143800@igor.tamri.com>
 by hinkmond@tamri.com (Hinkmond Wong):

: I think to sum up the whole idea behind paying a 30-year mortgage in 30 
:    years instead of getting a 15-year mortgage, has been to
:
: [...]
:
:	 2) And, take advantage of the tax deduction for as long as possible
:		 (30 years in this case).

Don't forget, the interest portion of the payment shrinks over time.

To take a classic example, the payment on $100k loan at 18% (1.5% per
month) is $1507 (and change).  Of that first month, the interest portion
is $1500, (1.5% of $100k) and $7 is principle reduction.  The very next
month, it's only 1.5% of $99,993, a little less.

Somewhere between 5 and 10 years, you reach the halfway point, 1/2
interest, and 1/2 principle.  It's not linear, so it's not at 15.

By the time you get to around 20, 25 years into the loan, the interest
deduction is so small it's almost not worth keeping track of for tax
purposes.

This is one reason (in my guestimation) that people in America move so 
frequently ... as the interest tax deduction shrinks, the real cost of
the loan grows.  When you move, you get a nice brand new loan, nice
and almost fully-deductible again.

However, the halfway point (wherever it is, I don't recall) for a 30
year loan IS further out (of course) than a 15 year loan.  So, besides
that detail, what you say is true.

-- 
The Chipmunk.
Opinions are mine, void where prohibited, taxed, licensed or regulated.
Stult's Report: Our problems are mostly behind us.  What we have to do 
now is fight the solutions.
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate
Subject: Re: 15 year vs. 30 year loans
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:52:23 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

asylvain@felix.filenet.com (The Chipmunk) writes:

>To take a classic example, the payment on $100k loan at 18% (1.5% per
>month) is $1507 (and change).  Of that first month, the interest portion
>is $1500, (1.5% of $100k) and $7 is principle reduction.  The very next
>month, it's only 1.5% of $99,993, a little less.

>Somewhere between 5 and 10 years, you reach the halfway point, 1/2
>interest, and 1/2 principle.  It's not linear, so it's not at 15.

Actually, at 18% (a house bought on a credit card? :-) ) that halfway point
where payments on principal = payments on interest isn't reached until
sometime in year 27 of a 30 year loan.  Ditto for the balance remaining.
Take the rate down to 6%, and the halfway point shifts to year 21.

Unless you pay extra on the loan, you'll never reach the halfway point on a
30 year loan in less than 15 years.

In any loan with an interest rate > 0%, it takes longer to get to the halfway
point than it takes to get from the halfway point to zero.  Something about
all that extra money on the balance accruing interest... :-)
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,misc.consumers.house,misc.consumers
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Green Tree group for Home insurance - READ THIS
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:08:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa

joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) writes:
>I just spoke with the Green Tree Group (Phila, Pa) and they sell
>Home insurance. The BIG difference is you pay one larger sum instead
>of annual amounts AND you get all your money back if you cancel
>or move, etc.. They say they have been in business for almost 200
>years and are rated highly by A.M. BEST. They also encouraged me to check
>them out with my Commissioner of Insurance and GAVE me that phone#,
>without asking.

       Good to know they're still around.  Green Tree started as
a competitor to The Philadelphia Cooperation for the Protection of
Houses from Destruction by Fire, the first US fire insurance company,
started by Benjamin Franklin.  The Philadelphia Cooperation (which is
still around) would insure only brick and stone houses that had no trees
nearby, thus minimizing the risk.  Green Tree was started to offer 
fire insurance for houses with trees, hence the name.  

       You might check out the Philadelphia Cooperation as a competitor to
Green Tree.  It, too, is a one (big) premium company.  After twenty years
or so with no claims, you start to get dividends.  The insurance can be
resold to other buyers of the property, and there are houses in Philadelphia
where the initial premimum has covered the house for two centuries.

       Unless they were corrupted during the 1980s, both have good
reputations.

					John Nagle

				John Nagle
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,co.general,misc.forsale
From: wmoore@spike.comet.ucar.edu (Wayne Moore)
Subject: BOUDLER COLO area HOUSE FOR SALE
Organization: COMET/Univ. Corporation for Atmospheric Research, Boulder  CO
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:01:17 GMT

From: wmoore@comet.ucar.edu (Wayne Moore)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.real-estate,co.general,misc.forsale
Subject: BOULDER area HOUSE FOR SALE
Distribution: usa
Organization: no affiliation

126,900$  6803 Camelia Court, NIWOT, Colorado
7 miles from Boudler NE toward Longmont
in Boulder County

Niwot is a real town, over 100 yrs old, not a bedroom subburb.

1982 Frame Ranch in NIWOT, quiet neighborhood surrounded by open space
with 3 parks within one block in various directions.
4 Bedroom, 2 full and 1 3/4 baths, study,big family room, living room,
dining room, 2-car garage
2220 finished sq ft (1110 on main)
Master bedroom with 3/4 bath plus 2 other bedrooms on main flr
full size windows (3 by 6 feet, 2 side-by-side one alone) in basement
2nd master bedroom with full bath in basement
Very energy efficient
Newer exterior paint (painted last summer)
Newer appliances
2 by 6 outer wall construction
thermal windows
skylights
automatic sprinkler system
garage door opener
clothes shoot to laundry sink
dog run
fireplace
professionally finished basement
attic fan
forced-air gas heat
gas hot water
Left Hand glacier water
Niwot school system (state leader)

Call 449-7000 and ask Jan McRoberts
about property by address
or send e-mail to wmoore@comet.ucar.edu
From: sundar@mipos2.intel.com ()
Subject: Title Insurance
Reply-To: sundar@mipos2.intel.com ()
Organization: Hug a Bug Extermination Company, Wilmington, XE.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:11:31 GMT


I believe that the title insurance has a role to play in protecting the
interests of the property owner and the mortgage lender. However I also
believe that the TI companies and lending institutions have rules and
regulations that tip the scale in their favor. Last year, I refinanced
my mortgage to take advantage of the low interest rates within a year of
closing on the escrow. When I asked my bank with which I held the
mortgage about refinancing with them, I was asked to get a TI. I don't
know why I had to get the insurance again.  When I approached the TI
company which provided the TI at the closing time, I had to pay them the
premium of about $700 again.

On a different note, why is the TI so high? Is there a high risk?
Do the stats show that the TI companies stand to lose a lot?

sri