HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Stepson in Big Trouble
Date: 31 Jul 1992 11:43:40 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

jcohen@sco.COM (Jon Cohen) writes about his drug-addict stepson:

> At the same time, I am furiously angry with him and relieved
> that he is out of our home. I dread confronting him,
> especially when he is loaded, as my impulse is to knock his
> teeth dowen his throat and tell him to get his hippie BS and
> his poisonous drugs away from me, my house, my son, etc.

I see your two roles as stepfather and husband in conflict. It is a
father's duty to love his child. It is a husband's duty to protect his
wife and children. What do you do when one of your children is a threat
to your family? I think it depends on how old the child is.

If the child is an adult, you no longer have a child. Your duty as
protector must take presidence. Thus your impulse to "knock his teeth
down his throat" is a valid option. You seem to have offset that
impulse with the proper options given to your stepson for treatment. I
don't see what else you can do but continue to offer help outside of
the home and to continue to protect the rest of your family.

I have read your postings in the past. I know you have the compassion
and the intelligence to do the right thing once you understand the
situation fully. Trust your feelings.

My story: I was down and out and ready to kill myself. My brother told
me later that my parents wanted to take me in, and help me, but he had
talked them out of it. Leaving me to die saved my life. I had a
spiritual awakening. If one more person had tried to save me, it would
have taken the focus off of my problem long enough for me to have
succeeded. They would have killed me. Do not take away your stepson's
opportunity for redemption. (I'm a Jew BTW. I have to say that whenever
I use a word like redemption. :-))

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jackson@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Ft Hood TX)
Subject: Re: Corrections and treatment work
Organization: US Army Corps of Engineers - Construction Eng Research Lab
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:53:42 GMT
Keywords: AA alcoholism

I "sponsor" an AA meeting every week at a treatment center run by and for
the Texas Department of Corrections.  In my experience there is a real need
to get the attendees to talk about anger and how to deal with it in an
institutional setting...very frequently.  The discussion of a "higher
Power", also seems to need to be structured rather loosely.  Many of these
young folks have a concept of God as some sort of super county judge.  I
have tried a slight modification of the first 3 steps, to make it simple and
scientific.
1. I can't, I have tried.
2. Something Can, look at these AA people
3. Whatever that is...I'm going to let it.
regards to all, Jack J.-Texas.
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Fear (Was: Splitting alt.recovery)
Keywords: AA alcoholism
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:37:01 GMT
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept.

In article <1992Jul30.181558.6515@sco.com>, joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:
|> 
|> So, I'd like to suggest that rather than focus our discussion on
|> nitpicking each other's programs/addictions, how about a new topic:
|> 
|> fear.  How do we face up to our fears and walk through them?
|> 
	[Synopsis of knight story deleted]
|> 
|> I sometimes feel that whatever our addictions, they are like a form
|> of armour that protect us from feeling the fear.  And by removing
|> the addiction (i.e., abstaining from alcohol or cigarettes or sugar or...),
|> we learn to feel the fear.
|> 
|> comments?
|> 

Well, since you asked...

Drinking did not hide my fear.  Oh, sure it did in the beginning.
Dr Silkworth (in "The Doctor's Opinion") explains that people
drink for the effect.  Drinking let me be Mr. Wonderful in every
respect but reality.

But somewhere along the line, alcohol stopped working for me.
And for myself, that somewhere along the line was actually about
the second or third time I drank.

I continued to look for that feeling in alcohol, but it never
came back.  Drinking or sober, I was afraid.  It's odd how I kept
looking for alcohol to remove that fear, when alcohol caused much
of my fear.  Part of that peculiar mental twist.

I didn't answer the phone.  I didn't pay my VISA bill because I was
afraid I'd need the money to pay next month's VISA bill.  I was afraid
my mother might call.  I was afraid my mother didn't care about me.

I have now learned sober that I don't have to let fear run my life.
God runs my life; I am his agent.  Yes, I am afraid.  Life isn't
peaches and cream.  I no longer make decisions based on fear (well, I
do, but those decisions always cause me problems).  When I let God
direct my life, I make it through the day sober.

Phil.

We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
From: decio@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gabriel Decio)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: i do it for myself
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:19:42 GMT


In article <1992Jul21.231132.13148@PacBell.COM>, wrhogeb@srv.PacBell.COM (Bill Hogeboom) writes:

> Good Point. My original post refered to my experience with AA and
> drinking, however, the steps have application in all facets of my
> life. Today there is a twelve step program for just about any
> adiction or life problem that I can think of. So, now that I think
> of it, my answer is still the same. Do what it says in your basic
> text (mine was a Big Book)
> 
> Bill H

This is my first posting in this newsgroup.  I'm an ACoA, and I have
read that in fact there are 12 step programs for ACoA's.  I have been
in two groups led in a totally different way, though.  I don't know
what I would have done if someone had told me that I had to admit I
was powerless (that's what my father tried to make me believe all my
life!) and that I couldn't do anything by myself (another preferred
line by my father).  

As someone who does not have deities, I would have a serious problem
admitting my powerlessness, since my recovery/discovery started the
moment I realized I was powerful and could be in control.  How can I
hand over the driver's seat to an entity that I don't even know
exists?  That's pretty much like throwing the steering wheel out the
window in the middle of the road.

I mean this posting to be a friendly one.  I just do not understand
how people with poor self-images and a devastating sense of
powerlessness (over the self, that is) can enhance the very crux of
their lives to seek recovery.

Yours,
Gabriel 

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: saswss@unx.sas.com (Warren Sarle)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Originator: saswss@hotellng.unx.sas.com
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:19:33 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1465@shaman.wv.tek.com>, peggys@orca.TEKTRONIX.COM writes:
|> There are definitely more
|> 12 steppers in this group than not, but for those of us who aren't please
|> allow us to have our say also so that this does not become strictly a group
|> for those following 12 step programs.  If that's the case perhaps there should
|> be another group, if there isn't already.

For those who can't tolerate other points of view, there are two 12-step-only
mailing lists:

12step
    Contact: suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com  (Maurice Suhre)

    Purpose: To discuss/share experiences about 12 step programs
    such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Alanon,
    ACA, etc.  Questions will also be answered.  Please include a
    phone number in case of trouble establishing an e-mail path.

recovery
    Contact: recovery@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Jeff Brooks)

    Purpose: recovery is intended as a forum and support group for
    survivors of childhood sexual abuse/incest and/or their SO's.
    Postings are published in digest format and contributors may post
    anonymously. The emphasis is on healing and recovery through the
    use of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous as adapted for our
    purpose.

See Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists, Parts I-III in news.lists,
news.announce.newusers, and news.answers.


-- 

Warren S. Sarle       SAS Institute Inc.   The opinions expressed here
saswss@unx.sas.com    SAS Campus Drive     are mine and not necessarily
(919) 677-8000        Cary, NC 27513       those of SAS Institute.
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 0 days again
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 22:36:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

Keep coming back!   -Mike
From: vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Claire Pedretti)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:14:39 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <1992Jul24.031100.1@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu> scp8340@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu writes:
>And i wasn't real keen on the idea of a higher power, especially not when I saw
>some ACoA literature & it said 'God' and 'He' and all that crap of the
>Christian God that I hated & that some family had tried to shove down my 
>throat...I liked reading 'Higher Power' much better...lots of time I think of 
>my higher power as the little seed inside me that really wants to be healthy,
>that little part of me that is good & healthy & actually does have a clue of
>how to lead a healthy and happy life

Christina,

Thanks for this reminder.  I have on several occasions heard
'reinterpretations' of 'higher' as 'inner.'  It is , however, easy to
forget what is not named.  Maybe those of us whose reality is this 
could start using the phrase Inner Power; or Inner Strength?  It would
help me remember. 

Even within the Christian traditions, there are variations of emphasis
of God as other and God as inner. And within that, I once heard this
comment on the image from John of the vine and the branches:  where
does the vine end and the branch end. So, I remain comfortable,
claiming an inner strength.

>Admitting that I am powerless & looking to my higher power for guidence isn't
>about self-abuse, about putting myself down, about eroding my self esteem. 
>It's about recognizing my limits, about letting go of trying to control
>everyone and everything around me,

This too is a helpful refocusing. I have heard others emphasize that
step 1 includes power over the self while it excludes power over
others. And the only statement of the steps with that made explicit is
the one from Ms magazine that someone posted last year.

I think we need to remember that the steps and slogans are but tips of
a ice berg of interpretation, and that each of us has different
interpretations, so that if we want to be clear to one another we need
to do more than quote; we need to illustrate.

sorry if i sound too much like the english teacher that i am.

claire


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: mikec@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Mike Coleman)
Subject: Re: good program
Organization: Development Tools Operation, Intel Corp., Hillsboro  OR
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 22:29:09 GMT

joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) writes:

>I'm curious about what people think about if people, lets say with at least
>five years of abstenance from what ever, are still smoking cigarettes are
>truly working a good program? Tobacco is a deadly drug and smoking is an
>addiction.

>Comments?

>Joni :)

What I have been told about smoking is that concentrate on your main program.
If you are ready to take up the next challeng, then do it. But, if it jeopard-
izes the main program (for lack of a better term) let it go.

However, I don't smoke, so I guess I may not know what I am talking about.


Mike

==========================================================================
Mike G. Coleman, Site Computing Services - LAN Services, Intel Corporation
Voice - (503) 696-2984  Internet: Mike_G_Coleman@ccm.hf.intel.com   or
		         	           mikec@hfglobe.intel.com
   "the views I express are my own, nobody else would ever want them"
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Subject: My feelings and emotions and alcoholism
Organization: none
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Keywords: AA alcoholism drunk flame me
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:18:07 GMT
X-Posted-From: snake.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


Rather than attend my home group's beginners meeting last night I
stayed for the main discussion.  I haven't done that for almost
two months now because I lead our Friday night beginners meeting,
and I wanted the newcomer who showed up on Wednesday to have a
known face should they show up on Friday.

In any case, Wilda chaired our meeting, using a topic from Hazeldon's
"Today's Gift" on laughter, cheerfulness, and happiness.  She claimed
that many of us needed to lighten up.  AA is -too serious-.

Many people in going around the room said that they "realized they
were being too serious" so they decided to "be happy."  Or whenever
they are feeling down they "be grateful."

When it came my time to speak, I claimed that I do not have the power
to "be happy."  I cannot "be grateful."  Many years ago, I decided
that I would never feel guilty ever again, nor worry about things,
because I have better things to do with my time.  Now my intentions
were great.  I -do- have much better things to do with my time.
But I still couldn't stop the guilt, or the worry, any more than I
can today "be happy."  A better philosophy was great, but no matter
how much I wanted or willed these things, they did not come to pass.

In my drinking days and in sobriety, I have variously worshpped
money, things, sentiment, myself, etc.  I did not "worship" these
items as one might go to church and kneel and pray.  I relied on
them to get me through the day happy.  I cannot put stock in my
emotions to guide my life.  I must have something more solid.  That
has been God.

When I sought God, I made it through the day.  Oddly enough, I usually
make it through the day in decent spirits.  The BB promises that if I
am thorough, I will be able to rely on my thoughts.  I will be happy,
joyous and free.  I've found that when I seek these things, I do not
get them.

After the meeting, I overheard my roommate chatting without someone,
saying, "If we don't own our feelings, our feelings will own us."
He seemed to think I (and several other AAs) were saying we should
not be feeling people.  This was not the case, I have many emotions.
However, it is God who gets me through the day, and if I do anything
towards staying sober through the day, it is the actions I take, not
the feelings or thoughts I have.

Lack of power, that was my dilemma.

Phil.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: fullerto@carp.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease? (not)
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:13:06 GMT

In article <Brz692.Go5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> met48546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marc E. Talbot) writes:

>
>Here we need to differentiate between drug (read MIND ALTERING)/alcohol
>abuse and addiction.  Yes, alcoholism is an addiction.  Yes, smoking is
>also an addiction.  Can we compare the two?  Maybe.  A goldfish is an
>animal.  A hampster is an animal.  Why can't a hamster live under water?
>Why can't the alcoholic just quit like the smoker does? :-)
>

	You made a lot of good points, but I feel I have to respond to this
one.

	I am of the drug-is-a-drug school of thought. This means that, 
according to my experience, it is not the drug alone that is necessarily
addictive but my obsessive, compulsiveness in general. This is directly in 
line with the disease concept of alcoholism.

	What I am calling you on is that you discount the comparison of
quitting smoking with quitting alcohol. I feel they are closer. True, 
untreated alcohol withdrawal is more dangerous, but for everyone that I
know who has gone through it (myself included), nicotine withdrawal put
us through more intense, relentless, and lasting physical and emotional
pain.

	I feel that they are the same in that both require the same 
treatment to be ultimately effective--a conscious contact with God or
something equally fulfilling. AA shows a way for that, and it provides a
fantastic support group for alcohol and illegal mood altering chemicals,
but it is by no means the only source. I raise this point because I found
it completely ineffective and downright detrimental to quitting smoking.
I was capable of finally quitting because of my spiritual development in
AA, but it was without the luxury of human support. Just God and myself.
(Smokers Anonymous failed dismally here.)

	Regarding the success of the rest of the world quitting by themselves,
I can only offer speculation. First, I don't know how many people have quit
by themselves or how long they will stay that way. I imagine that if they
do not have the required spiritual depth and level of fulfillment, they will
ultimately fail. Also, as more people go through it, the pool of human support
grows, so more will have that. Finally, most of the people I know who are 
quitting lately are on the patch and are on it to date. I know that supplanting
one drug inducing machine with another and tapering off that way failed for
me, but lets just see if it works for them.

	Tirade over. I hope you do not feel flamed. It is hard to disagree
in text without it having a much harsher tone than I wished to project.
I was just set off by your saying "just quit like the smoker."

				best wishes
					Tim F.
					fullerto@cis.ohio-state.edu
From: Terry.Murphy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Terry Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: What have I gained
Date: 23 Jul 92 04:02:44 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1309900058@igc.org> starshine@igc.org writes:
>
>When I drank I had a car, a good job, a boyfriend, etc.
>
>After I stopped drinking and was sober and drug free in AA, I lost my
>very good job, and lost a lot of other stuff.  Oh yes, I owned a house
>while I drank, but no longer did after I quit drinking.
>
>My sobriety (not drinking and being drug-free) is unconditional.  It is
>not dependent upon worldly success.  I don't drink even if my ass falls
>off.
>
>And what I got is a *MAGIC CARPET RIDE* when I let go of my old ideas
>absolutely.
>
>Starshine

Thanks young lady, as this was my original post to the newbie.
BTW, I started my new job today. What an opportunity ! Twice the $$
and greart benefits. But I know that my daily walk is not dependent upon
a job, a family or any other possession.
Trudge on......
^terry

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Fear
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:05:20 GMT

Joanne Eglash writes that she"sometimes feel[s] that whatever our  
addictions, they are like a form of armour that protect us from feeling  
the fear."  

CAN I EVER IDENTIFY!  3+ years ago, when I gave up my most troublesome  
addiction, I began to feel my fears for the first time.  I continued to  
smoke, however, until November 91.  If I thought I had felt fear in the  
preceeding 2 1/2 years, I was kidding myself!  

I think the main thing which keeps me in denial about my fears (and  
therefore, from dealing with them) is my shame.  There is a part of me  
which cannot let go of the idea that I know where I should be in my growth  
and development.  This belief allows me to think that "it's immature, " or  
"it's unacceptable" for me to be afraid of X.  (X is mostly people)

I would like to read Robert Fisher's book (title anyone?) - the metaphor  
sounds perfect.

I look forward to others' experience, strength, and hope regarding fear.  

elaine
esteward@isi.edu
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Selfish program?
Date: 21 Jul 1992 10:42:42 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

rmann@ohmeda.com (Robby Mann) writes:
> "This is a selfish program isn't it.
> -wrong in the sense in that i attend meetings for myself.
> -right in the sense that the program is selfish.  it places demands on me.

Rob then goes on to make the point that one should be unselfish rather
than selfish. I agree. That "selfish program" crap is just...crap! This
is a program of unselfishness and gratitude. Read the book. (If you
want to hide something from an alcoholic, put it in the Big Book.
Sheesh!) Here are a few quotes from the Big Book. I read nothing about
this being a "selfish program." In fact, I read just the opposite.

p. xxv: The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them,
  the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit, is
  indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this
  alcoholic field.

p. 21: He is often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning
  everything except liquor, but in that respect he is incredibly
  dishonest and selfish.

p. 62: Selfishness--self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of
  our troubles.

p. 62: Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness.
  We must, or it kills us!
  
p. 82: Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil.
  We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough.

p. 84: We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our
  fellows.

p. 84: Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and
  fear. When these crop up, we ask G-d at once to remove them.

p. 87: We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Many of
  us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it doesn't work.

p. 93: To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and
  unselfish, constructive action.

p. 127: Since the home has suffered more than anything else, it is well
  that a man exert himself there. He is not likely to get far in any
  direction if he fails to show unselfishness and love under his own
  roof.

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 14:53:11 -0400 
From: Paul.Kram@cs.cmu.edu
Subject: What is the Big Book?


Can someone give a full bibiliographic citation?
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Subject: My life is unmanageable
Organization: none
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Keywords: AA alcoholism
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:10:45 GMT
X-Posted-From: snake.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


I just wanted to tell you folks that I am powerless over alcohol
and my life is unmanageable (really unmanageable).

Phil.

Lack of power, that was my dilemma.  I had to find a power by which
I could live, and it had to be a power greater than myself.  Obviously.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery