HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Fourscore and several years ...
Reply-To: ask@cblph.att.com
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 00:39:38 GMT

Abraham Lincoln stood on the battlefield of Gettysburg and delivered
what, in retrospect, was one of the most famous speeches of the
century.  It began:

     Fourscore and seven years ago, ...

A "score" being 20, this was much more poetic, much more vivid than
saying. "Eighty-seven years ago. ..."

How did Lincoln come up with that particular phrase?

I suspect, from the scriptures.

The King James Version of the Christian scriptures uses the phrase
containing "fourscore" quite a few times. [ Gen 16:16; Ex 7:7;
Jud 3:30; 2Sam 19:32,35; 1King 5:15; 2King 6:25,10:24 and many
others]

In Torah portion we just read we find the words:   [ Ex 7:7 ]

  U`Moshe ben-sh`monim shanah    And Moses was fourscore years
  v`Aharon ben-shlosh u`sh`monim And Aaron was three and fourscore
  shanah                         years
  b`dabram el-paroh              when they spoke to Pharoah

Why is shmonim translated by so many Jewish sources as "fourscore?"

I looked at the Hertz Chumash, Silbermann's Rashi Shemot, Sinai
Publishing TNaCh, and Koren TNaCH.  All are Hebrew-English
references.

Except for Koren which translates it to 80, (as I suspected even
before I looked it up -- Koren is quite literal) all the others
translate to fourscore.  I found that interesting. 

(Note:  I translated Aaron's age as three and fourscore;  in all
of the English versions I cited above (except Koren) they translate
as fourscore and three.)

I can only wonder why all of these English translations agree with
the King James version?  Did the Hebrew translators believe the KJV
to be a better or more poetic translation?   Did both the KJV and the
English versions of the TNaCh derive from some other common
translation?  Did the KJV derive from an earlier Hebrew-English
version? (Not likely; the KJV dates to 1611.)

At any rate, it seems to me Lincoln may have taken his famous phrase
from the King James version.  Does Foursore and Seven years ...
appear anywhere?   There are several close calls. As we see, the
Torah portion we just read cites: fourscore and three;  Josh 14:10 &
1Sam 22 has fourscore and five;  Gen 16:16 has fourscore and six;
and 1 Chr 7:5 has fourscore and 7-thousand.
====
Another thing: Ex 7:7 uses:   v`Aharon ben-shlosh u`sh`monim 

elsewhere, e.g., Gen 16:16 uses: v`Avram ben-sh`monim
                                       shanah v`sheish

Why is one 3 and 80 years while the other is 80 years and 3?
---
And when 90 or 30 or similar numbers are used, the translation is
always 90 or 30 and not fourscore and 10 (or twoscore and 10).
Oh well, ....

Shavuah tov
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Date: 24 Jan 93 06:21:13
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<1993Jan20.220252.15255@netcom.com>
	<1jtc9sINN9tv@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org
In-reply-to: khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu's message of 24 Jan 1993 01:17:32 -0500

On 24 Jan 1993 01:17:32 -0500, khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
said: 
> Funny. And all I am trying to do is to argue Reform point of view... Oh,
> well...) 

No, you're arguing the Orthodox point-of-view. I'm arguing the Reform point of
view.

> Judaism is not something that is supposed to give you peace inside and
> so on...

Actually, if you read Jewish philosophy, it is supposed to give you peace
inside as part of your relationship with G-d.

> Well, I saw some of them and as soon as I
> am trying to argue them I am being called things. 

I don't believe I have called you anything? I can start if you want. Becareful
where you paint with that brush, and remember the danger of "Lashon Hara".

> How can you define a religion on somebody's personal view and personal
> needs? 

Although I'm sure that has been done, it is *not* Reform. Read the
introduction to the Humanist Judaism part of the reading list. What you're
talking about are the people Rabbi Wine is going after, not Reform.

> NO, it is just a mistake.

Try not including it by hand. It appears your mail posting software is doing
it for you.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:25916 soc.culture.german:10199
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:36:26 CST
From: Pankaj Saxena <U09416@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Detest Germans?
 <1993Jan17.192129.27257@compu.com> <93022.014410U09416@uicvm.uic.edu>
 <C19EBE.DFD@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>

In article <C19EBE.DFD@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, monaghan@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (N.O.
Monaghan) says:
>
>Pankaj Saxena <U09416@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>The British didn't just use the third world countries as a source of raw
>>materials. They were a huge captive market for the goods that their factories
>>were churning out. For instance, they sold more textiles to India than to any
>>European country.
>
>This was a market which was never properly exploited - after the Great
>War, there was a time when it would have been possible to create a
>balance of trade favouring the Dominions and the Colonies within the
>Empire, but this was not done, even though it was advocated by those who
>saw it as a way of limiting the effects of the economic crises at that
>time - e.g. Sir Oswald Mosley.
>

If you mean by saying "never properly exploited" that the market was  never
saturated with British goods, you're right. The colonies were inhabited by a
population dozens of times the size of the entire British nation. The tiny
little factories couldn't crank out the stuff fast enough. But nevertheless,
my point that Britain sold more textiles to India than to any country in
Europe still stands. And it wasn't just textiles and it wasn't just India.
The colonies were an important market for finished goods, as well as a
source for raw materials.

>>The Germans were hardly a commercial threat to the British at the time of the
>>second world war. The market for cuckoo clocks wasn't that big.
>
>I always thought that Switzerland was more famous for cuckoo clocks
>than germany, but one lives and learns.
>

One sure does. Germans have been making cuckoo clocks for decades. The Black
Forest region used to be pretty well known for it. If, as you say, Switzerland
is more famous for cuckoo clocks than Germany, there must be some other
reason for it (maybe they make better cuckoo clocks?).

>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>N.O. Monaghan
>
>monaghan@dcs.gla.ac.uk
>---------------------------------------------------------------------


U09416@UICVM.UIC.EDU
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Date: 21 Jan 93 06:08:38
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: world
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	<765363d6711703t279@witsend.uucp>
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org
In-reply-to: "D. C. Sessions"'s message of Tuesday, 19 January 1993 14:13:25 MST

On Tuesday, 19 January 1993 14:13:25 MST, "D. C. Sessions"
<dcs@witsend.tnet.com> said: 

>   Did you really mean to say this?  You're basically making dmitry's
>   argument for him: that leaving the Jewish people is a process that
>   begins with the smallest details.  (Lights, TV, kashrut, etc.)

You are correct in that the process does work in both directions; I won't deny
that. However, we simply must encourage movement in the correct direction,
towards more serious practice of a movement's tenents. On the other hand, we
can't expect everything to happen at once.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 00:51:14 EST
From: Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Cleaning up SCJ

It is unreasonable to suggest that public posts should not be responded to
publically.  I suggest you shelve the anal retentive attitude.
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:33:18 EST
From: Michael W. Sheib <MS7136A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Software
 <1993Jan25.183724.3003@Arco.COM>

I know thAT WP makes a hebrew language module for the ibm. It probably also
does for the MAC.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:45:47 GMT

david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes: >
chr04ha@vmsa.technion.ac.il writes: >>
khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes: >>>
>>> 
>>> IF you do study Torah like a man should then it would be another issue,
>>> since we could argue based on Torah, not on personal experience or
>>> emotions. 
>
>A side comment. Dmitry wrote the above to Maddi Hausmann. Though Maddi
>probably thinks I'm a sexist, I must say I find the above personally
>offensive and not in keeping with Torah. "like a man should"?!? Why
>not like a woman should? In one sense, at least, the obligation to
>learn Torah is more incumbent upon women, since they must not only
>know what and how to observe for themselves, but insure others also
>have the requisite knowledge (as the Lubavitcher Rebbe has repeatedly
>pointed out). 

Well, I might think you're a sexist, David, but you are always
respectful to my point of view in our discussions, and I appreciate
that very much.  I cannot say the same of Dima.  I, too, was
offended by that comment, although I did not take a Halachic
view of it.  Instead, I found him rejecting the intuitive method
over the logical, when a complete person should have some of
both.  He did the same thing in responding to another female
poster, and in commenting about Daniel's wife's experiences.
Bad Dmitry.  Naughty, naughty, naughty.

>>Now to the question: "Is Orthodox Judaism "sexist", however the term is 
>>defined?
>>One possible probe into how women are regarded in traditional Judaism 
>>would be to scour the sources for random expressions of rabbinical
>>opinion on women.  I do not refer to halachic rules, but to random
>>sayings that  describe qualities attributed to the sex as such.
>>
>The danger in this, though, as your "sample" demonstrates, is that
>"random" expressions may be taken out of context and/or not at all
>representative.

I agree that further research is in order.  But don't blame him
for suggesting a new line of inquiry!

Perhaps a comparison could be made of laws that treat men and
women differently.  One of my old "favorites" was how the fine
for raping a woman was to be paid to her father or husband, 
not to her.

Nah, Judaism isn't sexist.  It just doesn't recognize women's
dignity.  Don't you believe that rape is a crime against the
woman?

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       |  The Truth is still The Truth, forsooth 
madhaus@netcom.com                   |  Even if believing It you refuse
Centigram Communications Corp        |  Disproof's uncouth, refuting moot
San Jose California  408/428-3553    |  A Fundie's brain is dead.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: How do Jews reconcile science and philosophy with their faith?
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:44:40 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)

In article <1k4qv3INNhp6@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, friedenb@silver (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>At yeshiva over winter break I head the chairman of the Physics Dept.
>of Bar Ilan University give a lecture on Torah and Science which even
>convenced some (but not all) of the skeptics in the crowd.

He convinced _which_ skeptics?  Those of Torah, or those of Science?
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: jjmorris@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Joyce Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: bioethics resources
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:55:25 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I am looking for references on Jewish bioethics.  I would especially
like short pieces that are fairly easy to read that I can recommend
to my students.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:26016 soc.culture.canada:10310 can.politics:11650
From: joe@dogface.austin.tx.us (Joe Zitt)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-Nazi Rally
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:22:44 GMT
Organization: The Fortress of Ultimate Dorkiness

This kinda thing might only happen in Austin or in another suitably strange
town, but:

About 2 weeks ago the Klan staged a rally at the State Capitol to protest
Martin Luther King day. In addition to the usual bunch of counterdemonstrators,
a group of about 50 people showed up and, en masse and without interference
from the police, MOONED the Klan.

The press coverage was good, and it succeeded in moving attention away from
the Klan march and toward just how nonsensical people thought the Klan's
positions were.

Note: This is not recommended for climates where it would be cold enough to
freeze your buns off :-).
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosherizing Recipes
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:48:31 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin)

Pork is basically tasteless.  All the flavor associated with bacon,
sausage, and so on is in the spices.  This means that the vegetarian
substitutes out there for them actually taste sort of like the real
thing.  Unlike chicken or beef, which can't be faked.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:26050 soc.culture.arabic:6904
From: jcohn@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: Has Chabad gone crazy?
Reply-To: jcohn@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:32:44 GMT

well, it would be nice to know if my lab has such a plan-then i could
just take off and all.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Was ARAFAT A GIRL?
Date: 24 Jan 93 06:40:24 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1993Jan21.111213.7185@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil.Idriss:) writes:

>Timtum? Is this an Arabic or Hebrew word? I have never heard it before.

>Nabil Idriss                           |   We take customer satisfaction

The word is now a hebrew word.
I assume it is of Griece ( spell? )  origion.

In the Talmud its mean "something that cover".
A specialy in 2 cases . One who is emotion-less , can't feel the
sorrow of other persons is described as one has "timtum" of the heart.

And more relevant to our case. TOOMTOOM is a person born so that his
sexual organs are covered by some skin so that you can't determine his
sex.
( I am using the word "his" accoprding to the Hebrew way of using the
:male form" either as a special form for a male , or as a general
no-sex  form ).
Today the word TIMTOOM is used for one his brain is covered , or
simple for a fool. ( It is a low , but not very low , word ).
Shalom   gideon
From: dmoore@sales.GBA.NYU.EDU (Daniel B Moore)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Challenging Torah Quiz Question
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:22:18 GMT
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business



Congratulations! I am surprised
that the first person who answered
got the right answer. Yosi Mor, you
are very sharp!

-Barak Moore
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: edonchin@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Emanuel Donchin)
Subject: Mabat News on Schola - Why Gone?
Summary: Search for others who care about deletion of Mabat from Schola
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 04:42:24 GMT
Keywords: Israel, news, TV

SCOLA is an organization which rebroadcasts news programs from various
foreign countries. The target audience are educational institutions and
the material is used in foreign language classes. Hebrew was included
among the 40 odd languages as the SCOLA broadcast included the daily
edition of MABAT, the nightly news of Israeli Broadcast Authority (IBA).
The programs were about 7-10 days old but were very useful in this
University's Hebrew program.

Sometime last semester SCOLA dropped Israel from the schedule. It turned
out that some news service (ITN, I think) demanded special royalties for
the news clips it supplied to IBA and which are included in MABAT.
According to the staff at SCOLA, the IBA is the only national
broadcasting service that refused to pay, or in some other way satisfied
ITN. For this reason, there remain some 40 countries in the SCOLA
repertoire but Israel is out.

Our Hebrew program is trying to get the attention of the IBA and the
Israeli authorities to the matter. The purpose of this posting is to
determine if there are people here who have benefited in some fashion
from the broadcasts. We would like to know of other universities in
which Mabat was made available. It does not matter if it was used in
teaching, or was just available. We are trying to determine if there is
a consituency for this material. Naturally, we are looking for other
academic programs willing to join us in working with the IBA to restore
Hebrew to the SCOLA broadcasts.

Please reply to edonchin@s.psych.uiuc.edu or here at the newsgroup.

Thanks

Manny Donchin
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis exploit Hebrew to promote racism
Date: 23 Jan 93 20:44:36 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

bent@yang.earlham.edu writes:

> This is the theme from which the filmmakers of "Blood in the Face" drew 
> the title of their documentary.  The hour and a half long picture concerns 
> the prominence of white supremacist organizations in the United States.
-----
I STRONGLY urge Jews to watch this video.  It presents the arguments that 
are most commonly used my white supremacists in their own words.  Our 
best ammunition against these cruel, heartless (and brainless) bigots is 
to know what arguments they use so that we may easily defeat them.
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Reconstructionist Judaism
Keywords: reconstruction
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:30:57 GMT
Organization: Castle Anthrax

In article <1993Jan27.002459.10274@osf.org> barry@dingus.osf.org (Barry Perlman) writes:
>
>	How is Reconstructionism generally perceived by the mainstreams
>of the three major branches?

[Solovay pulls on his asbestos longjohns]

I've heard it summarized as "There is no God, and Mordecai Kaplan is
His prophet."

>	Thanks for all serious answers.

Which probably doesn't include this one.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN LAROCQUE)
Subject: Re: Anti-Nazi Rally
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:17:53 GMT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics

In article <93022.2105342893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>   The Heritage Front, a neo-nazi group in Toronto will be in court Monday the
>25th of January.

So, what they do? Park in a no parking zone?....

>There will be an anti-Nazi rally starting at Queen's Park
>around 8AM and proceeding down to the court at the Confederation Life building
>on University Avenue. This is a counter-demonstration to a pro-Heritage Front
>rally scheduled for the same time at Confederation Life.

Oh, then this will just be like good old Germany in the 30's with Commies
and Brownshirts battling it out in streets. Sorry, I've got better things
to do then give these losers the attention you want to give them.

Leave them alone, they will dissappear.
Or you can give them the attention they obviously crave....

-- 
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
**  John LaRocque         **   "If you're the new messiah.. I'm going to be  **
**  marshall.law@uwo.ca   **   the one to drive in the nails"  MARSHALL LAW  **
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Torah morals
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 05:33:02 GMT

In <C14866.L5u@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>Are you so taken with the translation that you do not look at the original,
>and also the probably correct comments on it in the Talmud?

The Talmud discusses two types of slaves.  I am talking about the kind
that are bought and sold and never go free unless their owner frees
them or causes certain sorts of injury to them, and their children are
likewise slaves.  Whether or not you accept the Talmud's explanation,
Talmudic law did allow for real slaves, and this is what I refer to.

I'd also appreciate it if people might consider the possibility that I
do occasionally know what I am talking about.  It does happen once in
a while, if my memory does not fail me the last time was several
months ago when I spelled a word correctly.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          currently in NY until the Jewish Agency tells me
 |__/__/_/        I can go back to Jerusalem (early Feb, probably)
 |warren@         
/ nysernet.org
From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosherizing Recipes
Date: 27 Jan 1993 16:58:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu


While we're on the subject, I have noticed that a lot of Mexican recipes call
for lard.  Is there any great loss in replacing the lard with, say, margarine?
I assume that the lard is just a traditional, reasonably tasteless, shortening,
and that any other shortening such as margarine or Crisco would do.  But
does anyone know for sure?

					Richard Schultz
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Negaitve Jewish portrayals in Film (was: Re: GO SEE "A STRANGER AMONG US"!!!)
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:46:34 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1jml2sINN3uh@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>First you have to define "mainstream."  I would contend that Mel Brooks
>"History of the World" was pretty disgusting.  I do not find any humor
>in Jews hanging on the racks of the Inquisition singing a "show tune" 
>with big noses, filthy bodies/clothes wearing a tallis and a religious
>outfit as any form of humor.

I don't think that this is particularly anti-Jewish.  It's just that
there really is no funny way to portray the Spanish Inquisition,
although Mel Brooks came pretty close.

Just because something involving Jews is tasteless doesn't make it
anti-Jewish.
-- 
  |)  David Charlap          | .signature confiscated by FBI due to
 /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu | an ongoing investigation into the
((|,)                        | source of these .signature virusses
 ~|~