From: celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Followup-To: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Organization: AEGIS
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:24:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.215150.5881@ads.com>, charleen@ADS.COM (Charleen
Bunjiovianna) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Nov18.153348.6594@mr.med.ge.com> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
> >
> >I will say this. You are looking at this from one side only. I am starting
> >to see it from the other side. Whether you believe it or not, women are 
> >looked down upon in this society. Very few men treat them as equals. 
> 
> This is at least the third time you've stated this as fact, and I can
> no longer ignore it.  Your whole premise, quite simply, is suspect.
> 
> Wendy, you're a pre-op transexual identifying as a woman, not a woman.
> Your perspective is as a transexual, not as a woman.  You didn't grow
> up as a woman.  You don't have the biological functions of a woman.
> You will someday have the physical appearance of a woman.  If you are
> very lucky (and I hope you are), you will be able to function sexually
> as a woman.
> 
> But don't tell me that I, as a woman, am treated in such-and-such a 
> way and that you can prove this through your own experience.  I don't
> buy it.  
> 
> Charleen
> 
> --

In my discussions with women on "Women's Reality", in attending
women's groups and reaching out with my own feelings, I get confromation
that women are treated as second class citizens. Women tell
me about their rage and furstration in beging discounted by men.
I can fell that rage and furstration. In meetings, I can feel
a difference in expectation as to when a man is leading a
meeting as to when a women leads a meeting. When a man leading
the expectation is "What exciting thing will he show us?" When a women
leads is "How is it possiable for her to show us something exciting?"
I ask my women friends if they too feel this. The confirm such
changes in expectations.

I don't take words in a book as gosple. I test them against my
"feelings" and the feelings of others.

As for my self, I don't think and have feelings like the "guys."
I have never fit in with them. I don't have their intrest
When I wanted to talk about what what was important to me, I
was always alone. The "guys" I connect with are those that
are transgendered like me.

As I spend more time in women's groups and the more I find
I have a lot in common with women. They want to talk about
issues that touch me and my life. I, in turn, am intrested
in their issues. Women, who don't know about my transgendered
nature, are treating not as a "man" but as "one of the girls."
That is the strongest validation of my inner nature I have
ever experienced.

I was not raised as a women. But I definitely did not have
the typical male childhood either. I spent a  lot more time
with the "girls" rather than with the "boys". I played
jacks, jump rope and hopsoch with the girls. I was the
2nd sissiest boy in school. I can remember being in a click
of 2 girls, the sissiest boy in school and me. My dating in college
was more like 2 girls going out. If we meet a girl that
was alone, she joined us to make a threesome or foursome.

I can speak from experience as a transgendered person.

I can only relate the experiences I have seen, my women
friends have shared or read in a book (ie. "Women's Reality")

As to buy and selling experiences.

I am not selling any.

Your experiences (true, or mileage) may vary.
I have read feminists have arguments as to way women are treated.
So such disagreements are common. But I belive the
there are many truths, not one truth.

I belive Wendy's experience is true.
I belive your experience is true.

They are not the same but that is all right.
There is plenty of truth to be found.

It may simply not be a truth that you have found.

Love and hugs,

Celeste
Xref: sparky soc.women:19750 alt.feminism:4588 soc.men:19430