HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:57:22 GMT
Organization: "Well, a head on top, an arm on each side, two legs...."

In <RTARAZ.92Nov11125627@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:

##>>>> On 10 Nov 92 15:06:23 GMT, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) said:

#ems> In article <lairdb.721277485@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com
#ems> writes:

No, no!  I was not the writer of the following!  (I will respond to the 
question Ramin poses, though.)

#ems> training excercise for police.  The setup for the film was that
#ems> an armed and dangerous person call was recieved.  White male, mid
#ems> 20's, long hair, near the RR tracks.  You cut to the scene of
#ems> someone more or less fitting that description coming toward you
#ems> accross the tracks.  The question is: When do you shoot him?
#ems> While he keeps comming 'you' (the cop in the film...) order him
#ems> to stop.  To stop and lay down.  He reaches behind his back into
#ems> a back pocket.  You shout again for him to STOP AND PUT HIS HANDS
#ems> UP!.  (At this point about 75% of the class has said 'bang', the
#ems> signal that they would shoot at that point...).

#ems> Well, the 'perp' (at about 5 ft 'range' from you) whips out a
#ems> card from his back pocket which states: "Please forgive me, I am
#ems> deaf and cannot understand what you are saying.  Can you write it
#ems> down please?".

#ems> BTW, about 99.9% of the class had said 'bang' by the time the
#ems> hand started comming up fast from behind the back ...

#ems> Right after that a radio call comes in that the A&D was just
#ems> apprehended about 1 mile from you ...

#ems> I've never seen such a humbled group of people in my life ...

#I got a chill going down my back bone after reading this story.
#What would you DO if you shot this poor fellow and then saw his card?

I am a civilian?  Suffer terrible remorse, get sent to jail, villified
in the papers, lose all of my personal worth to the resulting lawsuits....

I am a police officer?  Look at the result with mild surprise, say "whoops",
get kidded in the locker room, and do a few days of paperwork until the
shooting team sends me a memo saying "No problem, bucko, it was a good shoot."

(Which, honestly, it probably is in either situation.  The original writer
didn't specify, but presumably I drew my weapon by at *least* the second
time I ordered him to halt.  Pointing a gun at someone is a pretty clear
communication that they should stop and appear nonthreatening.  Still
the "terrible remorse" bit, of course, but....)


-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: wix@eskimo.celestial.com (Dennis Wicks)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: cutting kevlar
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:59:57 GMT
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<

In article <2AD6200F20000124@UALR.EDU> lklawson@acs.harding.edu writes:
#I seem to remember watching a TV program on new tech inovations (maybe
#Beyond 2000) in which they were using a watter cannon to cut kevlar.  The
#object was aparently a high pressure water stream as a carier for abrasive
#particles.  Sliced thourgh it like the proverbial hot knife/butter example.

No abrasive required!  In fact, they use a very efficient filter system
to insure that there _aren't_ any particles of any kind in the water.
I have seen several films of such devices in action.  They will cut nearly
anything from bread to armor plate.  Like, as you say, the 
proverbial "hot knife!"
From: micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re:sealing of reloads
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:21:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: kixtal.185
Organization: The Karolinska Institute, Sweden


I have a faint memory of having read in the memoirs of some white hunter 
that his .600 Nitro Express cartridges came in pairs, in a block of
paraffin.
If somebody plans to do this it is probably wise to check that the 
temperature at which gunpowder/primer ignites (whichever comes first)
is significantly higher than the melting point of paraffin.
/RS
From: drj@dev-null.phys.psu.edu (Dan Jeuch)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:27:01 GMT
Organization: Penn State, Department of Physics

I'm sure you're always flooded with e-mail, but I just wanted to say two things:

  1) I completely agree that rec.guns needs to be moderated.
  2) I can think of no one better suited for the job.

You've done an excellent job in my opinion, and as for the comments, they're
appreciated.  Don't change your format for one person.

-An avid rec.guns reader.

Dan

P.S. (I didn't know if I should post this.  Feel free to include my opinion
      if you need someone to back you up. :-))
From: SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: net.etiquette
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:57:50 GMT


   Certainly not to stomp on anybody's 1st Ammendment rights, but things are
   starting to get just a little out-of-hand.  Just one of 2 msgs posted this
   morning was *2385* lines long (that's over 113 full screens!).  BTW I
   receive rec.guns as a consolidated single mailing (normally) once per day.

   I checked the "Welcome to new subscribers" info msg for reference, but 
   didn't find the posting guidelines I remember there.  I must have read
   the net.etiquette from some other newsgroup.  But it surely seems just
   as appropriate here as there (probably rec.avaition).

   Those *guidelines* were simple, as follows:
      Not to quote unless _really_ necessary.  This list (and most every other) 
      are read by regular followers, so they have been following the thread 
      all along.  Re-hash is not usully necessary; repeat of the single line
      or phrase is all that is needed.   (^^^^^^^'s for emphasis).

      Quoting signatures is a NO-NO.  Reference is OK, such as "msg-id, user
      so-and-so writes:", but including someone else's signature is a breach 
      of etiquette.

      This list is excellent for not flaming.  Guidelines I refer to just 
      asked that each new posting contribute new meaningful info.  Some of
      the horses we have been beating on of late may not be dead but they 
      sure have been hurt real bad.  ;-)
  
   THis all seems to have started just recently.  I have been following this
   list for several months, and it's just been in the last week or so that the
   etiquettes have gone out the window.

   Hope everyone takes this in good spirit; it's meant that way.   Thanks.

   Mike  (Coyote)   (Pronounced Ci'ute, not Ci-yoh'-tee)
   SYSTEMM@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL
 

[MODERATOR:  Mike makes a good point.  Some of this is my fault,
I just process whatever posts show up and if the number is large
then so is the digest.  But we can all do our part to be good
citizens on the net, going easy on bandwidth by having a little 
care in how we edit a response.]
From: merlin@neuro.usc.edu (merlin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sporter mags
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:30:16 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

In article <9211111515.aa29400@s.s.ms.uky.edu> eric@ms.uky.edu (Eric H. Herrin II) writes:
#Well, I just picked up a Colt Sporter Competition HBAR for a great price, but
#the two mags it came with are 5 round (20 round with a filler).  Anybody
#have any recommendations about where to pick up some 20rd+ mags?  

No Problema Amigo!  You already got'em in your hands.  The filler is a
U-shaped block which limits the magazine to five round capacity -- this
is the maximum allowed by some local state hunting and/or weapons codes.
If your local jurisdiction doesn't care just slide out the floor plate,
remove the metal U, and voila -- you've got yourself a pair of 20 round
magazines.  You might also check around for the company Adventure Line
they used to make some nice 30 round M-16 magazines.  I've seen a few
40 round AR-15/M-16 magazines as well -- but I don't know who makes'em.

Merlin                        Never let it be forgot
The Magician                  That there once was a spot
King Arthur's Court           For one brief shining moment
Camelot                       That was known as Camelot
From: dlamber@andy.bgsu.edu (Don Lambert)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Selling Home-loaded Ammo?
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:18:33 GMT
Organization: BGSU University Computer Services


I truly doubt any of the ammo you saw was "home-loaded."  Now commercial
reloading I'd believe.  To start you will need a Class 6 FFL to manufacture
ammmunition/re-manufacture and any state and local permits for your area.
Don't forget a state tax stamp. If you want to sell to gun dealers/shops be
prepared to have at least 1 million dollars insurance on your ammo company.
Without it most dealer won't even look at you. Now you will need to be able
to supply the ammo. When the deal wants it.

#   How profitable is it?  

Figure it this way on a box of ammo there is a 30-50% mark-up plus an 11%
federal tax.

Figures for a box of 50
Cost :   $4.50
Mark up: $2.25
Fed Tax: $0.75
----------------
Price:   $7.50

As for selling 100,000 rounds a month, your still a small dealer and the
EPA, etc. won't bother with you. The profit is there but you have to
provide a product that goes bang everytime, groups well in all types of
guns and meets SAMMI specs.

Don Lambert
University Computer Services
Bowling Green State University
        	       	       	       	       	       	
INTERNET : dlamber@andy.bgsu.edu
From: rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:52:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: bigwpi.RTARAZ.92Nov9130815
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 9 Nov 92 14:27:15 GMT, holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) said:

holger> Well... if you want it *really* flashy (in the literal sense
holger> of the word), use baloons filled with hydrogene.  You have to
holger> fill them out on the range (You definitely don't want to shoot
holger> at them indoors!) because H diffundates quite quickly though
holger> the rubber.


How will the hydrogen catch on fire?  the bullete wont make a spark
hitting the baloon.
From: mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:10:52 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.


I have without exception liked the style of moderation that I've
experienced since reading rec.guns.  I believe that rec.guns is the only
newsgroup that I haven't unsubscribed from one time or another due to
signal:noise ratio problems.

I usually find Jim's [MODERATOR:] comments to be either germane to the
posting, or funny, or both.

If rec.guns unmoderates, it'll become another t.p.g - and I got tired of
that months ago.

I haven't been around as long as many of us, I don't know 1/10th as much as
most, I don't even own any firearms after my Dad's house burned down; but I
find this newsgroup to be useful, informative, and entertaining as it is,
and I don't want to see it unmoderated or to have Jim feel he can't make
his comments.  I wouldn't mind seeing an unmoderated alt.guns, but I
wouldn't read it.

In fact, the only complaint I have is that the @#$% FAQ isn't written yet
:-).  
	[MODERATOR: Ummmm, err, hem, haw....]

I like things the way they are, here.

I invite comment by email, to conserve bandwidth.

[Note to Moderator:  I hope to find time to help you write that FAQ, after
this academic quarter is over.]


Mike Atkinson

asbestos@nwu.edu
mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (for talk)
mikea@NUACVM.BITNET
-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "I'm wearing this hat because I don't want 
asbestos@nwu.edu       |  my brain to ears out my ooze." - Jeff B.

            A Libertarian and an NRA member.
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norwegian Krag Question
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:50:06 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center


   Perhaps the best source for information on the Norwegian Krag (other
than Norwegian readers of this group) is Frank DeHass' book "Bolt Action
Rifles."  Incidently Norwegian Krags were made up until WW II.

   As an aside, several years ago a good friend of mine had a sporterized
Norwegian Krag.  The gun had been converted to .308 Win also.  Oddly
enough the sporter conversion had been done by Globe Firearms of Canada
sometimes in the 1950s.  My friend shot this rifle for several years
until he was warned that the Krag was a weak action and he sold it.

Michael Gordon
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Little-known membership benefits of the NRA
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:51:10 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <q0PwTB1w164w@upchrch.UUCP>, by upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ):
# justice@panix.com (Michael Justice) writes:
# 
# # One of my coworkers "discovered" that I am a NRA member, and told me this:
# # 
# # When he first immigrated to the U.S., he bought a cheap used car, which
# # happened to have a NRA membership sticker on the back window.  Being lazy,
# # he never bothered to remove it.  Then, one fine day, a cop nailed him for
# # speeding, saw the NRA sticker, said "Oh, you're in the NRA?" and let him
# # off the hook.
# # 
# # Needless to say, he never removed the sticker . . . and continued to get
# # let off the hook.
#

Hmmmm, I would have guessed the police would be _more_ likely to
give a ticket to a member of "the evil empire" ;-{). 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)

[MODERATOR:  Eventually I'd like to route this over to t.p.g. or 
something... thread seems to be drifting, no?]
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A "must" for the reloading bench
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:18 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <1992Nov10.143218.10358@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
[ response to my question about disassembling .22RF mostly deleted ]
#I wouldn't bother to try to salvage the lead, though.  It's usually
#pure lead and quite soft.  If you want a good casting alloy get some
#wheelweights, if you want pure lead go to a metals salvager.  A .22LR
#averages something like 42 grains of lead - it's going to take 150 of
#these to get near 1 pound of lead.

I have received a couple of replies that indicate to me that I wasn't
clear enough about what I want to do, so here's a more complete
explanation (this is not to criticise Russ, it's just easier to
tag this followup onto his response):

Our local landfill will not accept lead nor will they accept any
live ammo.  Both are considered hazardous material.  Besides,
I wouldn't want to let live ammo into the hands of someone who
might not understand the risks so I won't put it into the trash.

I figure that the easy way to "dispose" of the lead is to simply
add it to the bucket with the rest of my bullet alloy.  The easy
way to dispose of the powder is to put it in a pile on the ground
and set fire to it.  The easy way to dispose of the case is to
fire the primer and then put it in the trash; the landfill doesn't
object to brass, at least not yet.

I have had a couple of interesting suggestions regarding the disassembly
operation.  Thanks guys!

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:54:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Two quick points:

I'm not sure I would even bother to wade through an unmoderated
rec.guns; the chaff/wheat ratio might well be extraordinary.
I don't need more exposure to anti-gunners and other quacks.

Mr. Moderator does a restrained and excellent job, IMHO, and
ought to be thanked; I suspect the support of your activities
on our behalf is a vast majority of the subscribers.  I, for one,
don't subscribe to the "talk-politics" stuff because I'm sure that
neither my opinion nor the other opinions will change; it's sweat, time,
and higher blood pressure w/o any benefits.

Keep up the good work with my thanks!

BDW
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotgun recomm. for new shooter?
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:27 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9211042003.AA20339@newshost.lanl.gov> crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby) writes:
#
#This is very true.  Ideally, you would go to some great shooting
#school (say Holland & Holland in London :), take a bit of tutelage,
#and then be fitted by an experienced and knowledgable fitter and
#have the stock custom made to be perfect for you (at least with the
#clothes you were wearing at the time).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Charlie's advice is sound, but he doesn't emphasize this point enough.
The gun that fits you perfectly in the store with street clothes is
likely to have too long a pull when you have your hunting clothes on.
If you can't try it with your insulated underwear, heavy shirt, and
shooting jacket on, then be prepared to cut about 3/4" off the butt
when you get it home. There's nothing more frustrating than a shotgun
that snags your jacket when you attempt to mount it. Many experienced
upland shooters won't have a shotgun with a rubber recoil pad for this
reason. The rubber will drag on the jacket causing inconsistent mounting.

Gary
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:23:49 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <Yf0J85W00iV2I3vkwj@andrew.cmu.edu> se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) writes:
#
##Remember that the person may not speak your language or hear at all.
# 
##One ofthe most telling things I ever participated in was a training
##excercise for police.  The setup for the film was that an armed and
##dangerous person call was recieved.  White male, mid 20's, long hair,
##near the RR tracks.  You cut to the scene of someone more or less fitting
##that description coming toward you accross the tracks.  The question is:
##When do you shoot him?  While he keeps comming 'you' (the cop in the 
##film...) order him to stop.  To stop and lay down.  He reaches behind
##his back into a back pocket.  You shout again for him to STOP AND PUT
##HIS HANDS UP!.  (At this point about 75% of the class has said 'bang',
##the signal that they would shoot at that point...).
# 
##Well, the 'perp' (at about 5 ft 'range' from you) whips out a card from
##his back pocket which states:  "Please forgive me, I am deaf and cannot
##understand what you are saying.  Can you write it down please?".
# 
#
#Come on now!  Not terrbily realistic....
#The universal sign for forbidden is a red cricle with a slash
#The universal sign for pause on audio equipment are two vertical bars.
#and the universal sign for stop whatever the hell you're doing and put
#your hands up is.....
#......the muzzle end of a police handgun filling most of your field of view.
#(now if he was BLIND....)


I was going to stay out of this but the above response warrants some comment.

The training film discussed in the original posting depicts an actual killing
of an umarmed civilian that happened somewhere around 1970. During the years
1972 through 1985 I was very good friends with the then captain and later
chief of one of our local PD's. He was one of the brightest, most objective
and least goon-like cops you would ever want to meet. A man for whom "honest
cop" was not an oxymoron. He relayed the story of the young man's killing
and the film that was made of it. To gain symapathy from the courts, the
film ws shown to a number of judges who, like the trainees cited above,
shot the young man down. They got the response from the judges they were
seeking: "Tough choice, kill them all, we will leave it to God to figure
it out". The correct response was "I am a judge not a cop. I am not quali-
fied to employ lethal force or to be a cop. Since your performance is not
distinguishable from mine, you likewise are not qualified to employ lethal
force or to be cops." That is the whole idea behind the guns, the radios,
the body armor, the high powered cars, and most importantly the training
they receive at cop college: to enable them to minimize the risks while
evaluating a situation. But the proper employment of tactics requires a
brain. You get what you pay for I guess. 


#
#-Seth


geoff kotzar
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Luger
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:25:20 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <92309.093125JCEHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
#
#    $600 might be a good price for the Mitchell Arms Luger (the dealer price
#-- to ffl holders only -- is a bit under $500).  One thing you might consider
#though, for that kind of money why don't you just buy an original Luger.

Agreed on all counts. And the review I've read of the Mitchell Arms Luger 
vs. pre-WWII vintage military Luger gives the reliability edge to the original.

#And the last time I was there (about two weeks ago) they also had
#one of the Mauser Parabellum Luger copies which were made in the 1970s.
#It was still in the box and most likely one of the 7.65 Luger Swiss models
#which in my opinion is the nicest looking handgun ever.
#

They do *look* nice, but have you ever held one of the 70's
vintage Mauser Parabellums? At least for me (and one of my friends
who owned one) they do not fit the hand well. I think it has to do
with three factors:

1.) The grip safety.

2.) The Swiss pattern grip.

3.) The very square and somewhat bulky wooden grips on the
    Swiss pattern Mauser commerical. The older military models
    I've seen surplus in local shops seem to have more rounded
    grips and fit my hand much better (much more natural 
    feel).

Of course, going to the local shop trying them out & see what you think
is the best option. The opinion on the 70's Mauser P-08 is my 
own (and one of my friends) subjective opinion and may be at vast
variance with your own.
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need small easy to qualify with handgun.
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

I was apparently unclear in my previous post.  Thanks to those that already
responded.  Let me try again.

A local Sheriff wishes to purchase a gun from me.  He wants a small easily
concealable personal handgun that he can easily qualify with.  He said he
was considering a .25ACP and asked me for a recommendation and a price.
So far I have been told not to consider .25ACP.  What should I recommend
and what is the price range.  I think $200 is the most he will spend.

Michael