From: farhad@cwi.nl (Farhad Arbab)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Aryan symbols
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:26:04 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Nov13.133831.20544@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov13.033353.2094@ucbeh.san.uc.edu>,
|> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
|> > In article <1992Nov13.034357.15783@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
|> mhz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Mariam Hakim-Zargar) writes:
|> > > In article <1992Nov11.174503.16875@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> of
|> soc.culture.iranian,
|> > >   mks9e@amsun30.apma.Virginia.EDU (Mustafa Kemal Husein Saiyid) writes:
|> > >> Could someone kindly tell me if old Aryan symbols still exist in 
|> > >> Iran today. In Germany under Hitler, they revived the old Germanic
|> > >> symbols the swastika and the old style SS for the Schutz Stafel.
|> > >> In India, the reverse swastika is still quite common.
|> > >> Thanks in advance.
|> > >> Mustafa Saiyid
|> > >> 
|> > > 
|> > > 
|> > > From what I know, there was never any Arian language evidence found
|> in Persia.
|> > >  The oldest known alphabet for which we have any evidence, is that
|> which was
|> > > used before the Arab invasion, namely known as Pahlavi dari, or just
|> pahlavi. 
|> > > During the reign of Mohammad Reza Shah, there was some attempt to
|> bring this
|> > > language (which is primarily today's Farsi minus all the arabic words) and
|> > > alphabet back, but I think was unsucessful becuase the old writing
|> system was
|> > > not particularly effective... I cant remember why though... I'm sure
|> someone
|> > > else can shed some more light, (perhaps?)
|> > > 
|> > > 					MHz
|> > > 
|> > according to what i have read pahlavi was written in ancient aramaic
|> alphabet.
|> > this kind of alphabet is related to both hebrew and arabic alphabet. it 
|> > is not efficient to use it because the sounds that the symbols represent are
|> > not used in many of the arabic based languages. 
|> > 
|> > --== not the fingernail man ==--
|> > zafar
|> > 
|> 
|> It is my understanding that during the reigns of the great emperors
|> Cyrus and Darius, the Aramaic language was adopted as the official
|> language across the empire. This was primarily because it was in
|> widespread use by the merchant class and so was already familiar to
|> most, if not all, of the nations incorporated into the empire. While
|> Pahlavi was used by the local government in Iran, it was not the
|> official language of the empire.
|> 
|> About the lack of evidence for Aryan language in Iran, are Farsi, Dari,
|> Pahlavi, etc. not derived from Sanskrit, the original Aryan language?
|> 
|> Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

A few facts (as I remember) for all concerned:

	1- The Indo-European family of languages is divided into a
	   dozen or so branches, one of which is the Indo-Iranian
	   branch.  The Indo-Iranian branch divides into three
	   branches: Dardic, Indic, and Iranian.  Sanskrit is in the
	   Indic branch, and about a dozen languages are derived from
	   Sanskrit.  There are about half-a-dozen other languages in
	   the Iranian branch (including Persian, Avestan, Kurdish,
	   Pashto, Baluchi, etc.).  These languages are NOT derived
	   from Sanskrit, they have a sort of a cousine relationship
	   with Sanskrit.  Pahlavi is a form of Old Persian, and none
	   of these Iranian languages had anything to do with Aramaic.

	2- The pre-historic spread of the Aryan tribes in Europe is a
	   fact, but it is unclear exactly where they ended up.  The
	   migrations, conquests, and settlements of the Aryans in
	   the Iranian Plateau is clear.  The fact that there are
	   deep rooted historical links between the customs and
	   traditions of Europe and the customes, traditions,
	   languages, and religions of the Iran, is also clear.
	   It is unclear if the Aryans who came to Iran came after
	   they had moved around in Europe.  It is also clear that
	   the new racist use of the term Aryan is totally bogous and
	   without any historic basis.  There is no substance behind
	   the Nazi-fabricated claim that Germans are Aryans.  There
	   were aryans roaming around all over Europe in pre-historic
	   times, but there is no evidence that they actually settled
	   down in Germany, or that the population of Germany has a
	   closer link with these Aryans than other peoples of
	   Europe.

	3- The attempt to cleanse Persian had nothing to do with
	   going back to Pahlavi, or with changing the alphabet.
	   The alphabet used to write Persian before the Arabic
	   alphabet was adapted, was indeed rather complex.  There
	   are about twenty five distinct sounds in Persian, but this
	   alphabet had about a dozen or so distinct characters only.
	   Two and three character combinations were used, with
	   context sensitivity, to make up all the sounds of the
	   language.  I was very proud of myself for managing to read
	   the equivalent of "Ardeshir" in this alphabet after some
	   non-trivian struggling with the rules!

	   (Note, this is what I remember from my dabblings into this
	   topic over a decade ago.  I don't have references here
	   with me to refresh my memory.  Take all of this as an
	   approximate statement of facts, don't hold me responsible
	   for its exact accuracy.)

	4- The entire Iranian culture bears marks of Aryan symbols.
	   Not just the language, but the customs are also very old.
	   It is clear that many aspects, beliefs, and traditions
	   associated with the Zoroastrian religion is actually much
	   older, and can be traced to what the Aryans brought with
	   themselves to Iran (e.g., the celebration of the new year).


	5- The racial link between Iranians and Germans is a myth.
	   This link, strictly speaking, of course exists, but it is
	   no stronger and no weaker than the racial link with many
	   other peoples of Europe.

	6- There are much stronger cultural links between Iran and
	   Europe due to common origins than strictly racial links.
	   There is a great deal of Iranian influence through the
	   Islamic culture and specifically through Sufism on Europe.
	   All this is much more important, interesting, and worthy
	   of study (in my opinion) that the racial purity myths.

Cheers,

Farhad Arbab
Interactive Systems
Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science
Kruislaan 413, 1098 SJ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Email: farhad@cwi.nl                    Fax:   +31 20 592-4199
Phone: +31 20 592-4056                  Telex: 12571 mactr nl