From: martillo@stars.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:55:29 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Clearpoint Inc., Hopkinton, MA

In article <1992Jul28.164720.23446@ucunix.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes:

>>>re:feminists/islam; your definitions of what constitues mistreatment of
>>>women (by YOUR I mean that of the quran & islam) are certainly much
>>>different than that of the rest of the world. Is it mistreatment of women to
>>>allow them to clother themselves as they please, hold jobs,DRIVE CARS (that
>>>means you saudi-arabia...) e Perhaps in the days of the origins of islam
>>>women were indeed considered as equals, this is certainly not the case
>>>in modern day islamic cultures as their lawn and customs give evidence..

>>Islam allows women to hold jobs.  Islam says nothing specifically about
>>driving cars.  However, at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him),
>>women rided camels.    To say that the law in Saudi Arabia is an indication
>>of what Islam is all about is exactly like saying this:  The fact that 1/3
>>of women are raped in the U.S. and 1/4 female infants are sexually abused
>>in this country is a result of Chritianity's encouragement of these crimes.

In fact, Saudi `ulama are some of the finest in the world, and all
other Muslims must take note of their reasoning on the issue of
forbidding women to drive.  Definitely it is much easier to keep women
under the authority of men (as Allah requires) if women are not
permitted to drive.

As for high reported rape of women and abuse of children -- that is
the point.  The US is a civilized country unlike most Muslim countries
and 3rd world countries in general.  Such things do not get reported.
In Pakistan, it is hard even to find them women who are often
essentially locked up in purdah and raped and abused to their male
relatives' content.

And by the way, the US is a microcosm and has a large 3rd world sector
where people act as primitively as they do in Muslim countries, in
India, in E. Asia, in Latin America or in Africa.  Most abuse of women
takes place in this sector.  The first world sector of the US is
perhaps the best place to be a woman in the world.  All my Indian,
Syrian and Sicilian female relatives agree.

>>>While the islam of countries like america,canada and europe may indeed 
>>>espouse the high ideals that Sandra speaks of (probobly because of the 
>>>laws in these countries...), Fundamentalist islamic countries such as
>>>Saudi-Arabia and Iran are far from these ideals (in practice anyway)

>>Let's see.... in the "fundamentalist" (whatever that word means) country 
>>of Iran, you won't find 1/3 of women being sexually assaulted, as is the 
>>case in the U.S.  

Actually you will.  And in fact Shahla Haeri collected a lot of
evidence of the abuse of women by Iranian ulama and pasdaran.  In fact
there was apparently trade in virgins who were to be executed.  If a
revolutionary guard was given the task of executing such a young
woman, he got to rape her repeatedly (common folk belief among Muslims
hold that women who die virgins go to heaven) and when she was used
up, then he would kill her.

>>		    In Iran, there are 9 women in the Parliament which is--
>>both in terms of absolute and relative numbers-- greater than the number
>>of women in the US Sentate.  

This comment proves nothing to the modern civilized analytical mind,
and trying to prove anything from such a comment shows either true
intellectual dishonesty, complete intellectual delusion or total
intellectual naivete.  In any case, the commentator probably is not
mentally fit to attend a university and probably should be assigned a
guardian like other mentally incompetent.

Historically, even when Jews were the most despised, oppressed and
powerless in Christian or Muslim countries, Christian and Islamic
potentates often had Jewish advisors and doctors.  The success of a
few Jews reflected nothing on the rest of the Jews except perhaps that
because Jews were so weak and powerless that they could never threaten
the power of the potentate.

>>			       In Iran there are women doctors, engineers,
>>film-makers, managers, and politicians.  The also "fundamentalist" Islamic
>>Republic of Pakistan just had a female president, while it doesn't look
>>like the same will happen in the U.S. any time soon.

Actually the religionist yo-yos objected vociferously to Bhutto's
presidency.  And in any case, her assumption of the presidency was
more feudal than modern.

>>This is not to say, of course, that women are not oppressed in Iran.  
>>Unfortunately, women are oppressed in all countries.  The degree of 
>>oppression is dependent on many variables, including the level of
>>industrialization, urbanization, public education, prosperity, religious
>>beliefs, cultural mores, etc.   Adherence to Islam is exactly what is needed
>>for the liberation of Muslim women.

Yes and adherence to apartheid is exactly what is needed for the
liberation of blacks in S. Africa according to Afrikaner racists.  In
any case, before we can talk about liberation, people have to be
well-fed.  Only civilized modern Western society has ever been capable
of feeding all its people well, while glorious Islamic society has
always had a high level of unavoidable starvation and malnutritition.
The choice is clear.  Islam must be consigned to the garbage dump of
history, and those who cling to Islam are culties who must be
deprogrammed.

>>One question I wondered about for some time was this:  Given the fact
>>that women are opppressed in the U.S. as well (e.g. refer to statistics
>>regarding rape, wife-beating, lack of equal pay for equal work, etc.), why
>>is that Americans [and Westerners in general], shed rivers of crocodile
>>tears for Muslim women while pushing the grave problems of women in their
>>own countries under the rug?  I arrived at the conclusion that it is not
>>the status of Muslim women that these people really care about.  They don't
>>give a damn about Muslims, be they male or female.  All they care about
>>is covering up their own problems and insecurities, easing their conscience
>>about the miserable status of American (and Western) women, and making
>>themselves feel better by putting down others. 

Typical primitive shame honour pathology.  A civilized person takes
criticism seriously, determines the validity and then fixes the
problem if present.  The 3rd world (especially Islamic) primitive just
rages at getting caught behaving badly.

>Salam Alaikum Behnam, may add one more thing, not only is it that they are
>trying to cover up there own problems, but when it comes right down to it
>these people who just moan about the plight of Muslim women, these WHITE 
>people are just racist.

Well, I am sure you know.  Islamic countries are some of the most 
racist in the world.  Modern racism probably starts with Islam, 
certainly by the 2nd Islamic century, condemnation of color-based
prejudice is de rigeur among Islamic writers (which indicates that
this particular attitude unknown to ancient Greeks, Romans, Hebrew,
Persians and Arameans was already quite common among the community
of glorious Islam).  

In any case, the primitive mind divides the world into daru-lislami
and daru-lharbi.  From the standpoint of civilized people, we care
about the plight of women in Muslim countries or of blacks in S.Africa
because they are people, and things which divide the human race like
Islam or Abrahamic religion in general are detritus from our primitive
past and should count for nothing where oppression is concerned.

>sincerely

>zafar minhas

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
Newsgroups: alt.atheism