HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mccreary@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: An open question on the A.A FAQ/Intro ...
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 22:30:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.204710.14651@dbased.nuo.dec.com> news@illusn.enet.dec.com (Mark Sornson) writes:
...stuff deleted...

>    One point from the outline was that some people are atheists because in
>    the course of their education, they are influenced by authority-figures
>    (particularly in the realm of science) who are also atheists -- which
>    is to say that some follow the course of their 'intellectual superiors'
>    due to the fact that they ARE viewed as authorities (which, I believe,
>    is similar to the notion that some people become religious because the
>    authority figures in their life are also religious).  If anyone has
>    something to say on this point, I'd be willing to listen to it as well.
>

I can definitely say this is *not* true for me.  When I finally came 
to a decision regarding theism, all of my friends were theists of one
kind or another and all of my teachers/professors were either overth
theistic or just didn't mention it at all.  It was up to a year or so
later that I discovered overtly atheistic writings or met anyone
with similar beliefs.

I must have led a sheltered life.

--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
mccreary@sword.eng.hou.compaq.com                       _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Madeleine Murray O'Hare
Date: 3 Jan 1993 07:10:30 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <3JAN199300363050@elroy.uh.edu>, lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
|> In article <1i2raqINN8rh@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes...
|> 
|> ...stuff from previous posts deleted.....
|> 
|> >|> Does the name Madeleine Murray O'Hare ring any bells?
|> > 
|> >I must have missed something.   In what way is Madeleine 
|> >Murray O'Hare "imposing her will on the believers?"
|> > 
|> >Or is this one of those deals where even the existence of
|> >atheists is counted as a kind of imposition by Christians?
|> > 
|> >jon.
|> 
|> I don't know where you live, but I live in the south where the church rules
|> and blue laws (use to) let you buy a can of beans on sunday, but not a
|> can opener to open it with.
|> 
|> Madeleine Murray O'Hare and her family has done a great deal to impose
|> their will on non-atheists....
|> 
|> Not that I object to the end result, just the intent behind the means....


Pardon my denseness, but is someone *making* you buy can openers
on Sunday?

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Christian racism
Keywords: Christian racism depiction of christ
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date:  4 Jan 93 03:49:57 GMT

martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas) writes:

>Related to my recent post "Evolution implied by the Bible" is
>another question that's always worried me about the racism in
>contemporary Christianity.

>Every Christian bible or movie I've ever seen depicts Christ and his
>followers as very nordic-looking people, for some reason, especially
>Christ.  Even the Turin shroud has an image of a man with a very thin
>face and long nose.  

>Not once have I seen the point raised that the characters in the 
>Bible were much more likely to have been dark-haired, dark-skinned
>and not overly tall, and had the same physical characteristics that
>most middle-eastern people share today.  I suspect many Christians
>would be a whole lot less comfortable about things if they knew
>Jesus looked more like Saddam Hussein than some skinny Thor.

>I doubt many people associate their bible to the middle-east at all,
>despite it being completely set there.  I know Christians who 
>absolutely can't stand Jews, and yet worship the King of the Jews in church.
>(Come to think of it, same with Hitler)

>Other things that bother me is the complete absence of any mention
>in the bible of things happening in other great civilizations of
>the world.  Do the Pyramids crack a mention?  Is there a single
>reference to the great achievements of the Chinese?  Not to mention
>the remains of dinosaurs and what-not.  These are undeniable important
>events in the world.

Not to mention the existence of microbes like bacteria and influenzas, or
continents such as the Americas or Australia, or televisions, microwaves, or
black holes or .....

>Suddenly God's view of himself and his creation as expressed in the
>bible looks very piddly indeed... confined as it is to a small number
>of people in one corner of the Mediterranean over a very short time span.

Yeah, they say the no pork rule is good because it goes off in certain
conditions and that is probably what God was on about. But we've got fridges
now so why hasn't god told us that we can scrap that rule now. Why hasn't he
come down and passed 11th and 12th commandments on televisions and
automobiles the most influential factors in our lives today. Or maybe
condoms, he really is not clear about those things. If God really wrotye the
Bible he would have been able to forsee these advances and given guidance
for them and readers earlier could have identified those passages as
relevant to some future time.

Jeff.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: jwest@wisc (Jeff West)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: world,public
Date: 29 Dec 92 11:20:32 CST

brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes:
: 
: Jeff West (jwest@wisc) writes:
: 
: :  I just love these kind of rationalizations.  NOT!  Your a real piece

	< see previous post for all of my comments here>

: :  Jeff "you really hit my hot button" West
: 
: It grieves me to hear this kind of discussion.  God gets accused of
: things that are really not his to begin with.  Both Christians and
: non-Christians alike attribute the pain and suffering in the world
: to God.   This is not true.

Hey it was one of your own that sparked my post.  I know that there are many
different opions on Christianity.  But read his post again.  He clearly
states that it's your god that *gives* us these things as *gifts*.  You say
he doesn't.  Maybe you two should talk.

As for the rest of you post I only have 2 comments.

	1.)  Why did your god "deliever into the hands of Satan" such a
	     righteous man as Job?  Why did your god need to torture a
	     true believer?  Wasn't his obedience and faithfulness enough?
	     Or is it just your gods form of entertainment?
		"Man I just can't shake this guy!  He REALLY REALLY believes
	         in and serves me.  Hey I know, let's test him!"

	2.)  Your one of those that believes that the earth is ~5000 years
	     old aren't you.

clink, screeeeeeep, clink

The above sound you just read is my unlocking the atheist cage.  I'm going
to go put on my flame retardent suit now, cause it's gonna get REAL hot here
before you post has seen its end. 8-)


: 
: Brian Ceccarelli
: ----------------
: brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu


Jeff "what a world I live in" West 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

    - Calvin & Hobbs

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: gmiller@worldbank.org (Gene C. Miller)
Subject: More on Separation of Church and State
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: worldbank.org
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:25:20 GMT

     I am slowly catching on that postings fly on by whether I have time to
read them or not. Thus I may have missed any earlier postings addressing
the pre-U.S. Bill of Rights history of this concept.
					Certainly during the Reformation (and since), the separation of church
and state was (and is) practiced by some of the Anabaptists. They held that
no citizen of God's kingdom (i.e., Christians) should ever swear an oath of
loyalty to any earthly kingdom, nor take up arms on its behalf. This
practice, coupled with some others, brought them lots of troubles,
including martyrdom. I would hesitate very long before positing any
connection between them and the drafters of the Bill of Rights, though.
Nevertheless, they attempted in practice to maintain a complete separation
between church and state. Any earlier groups?...Gene
From: I3150101@DBSTU1.RZ.TU-BS.DE (Benedikt Rosenau)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:11:43 GMT
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John Muehlhausen types:

(Deletions)

>Why would any sane person want adversaries?  I have lived with large groups
>of BB's for long periods of time, approximating total submersion in
>Christianity.  I came away with the best memories of my life and the closest
>to a utopian experience I have ever had!  True BB's don't want somebody to
>pick on!

And if the people are not happy, then it is not a true BB (tm)?

The following is my from my experience and not necessarily a
representative sample:
All Christians who have been into hard core christianity (a relative term)
felt very unhappy when they could not get rid of their doubts that way.
Feeling guilty of it made things even worse.
And then there was the massive control over their lives through the
community. Emotional pressure was put on them with whom to talk, with
whom to talk not, what to do with the special one, and so on.
Some couldn't cope with their studies for praying too much.

One explained later why he left such a group with that he had the impression
that the members of the group refused to grow older or even to grow up.
In his words, they wanted the same form of community and safeness they had
when they were children.


>Why?  Also, who cares?  What must a BB _do_ in order to live a happier life?
>I would still like some examples of how following Biblical command will mess
>up an individual or society.
>(Regardless of how that translates into psychological terms)

This question makes me doubt that you have read the bible - as opposed
to reading the bits that suit your god view over and over.

Loving the neighbour is a nice example, provided that love is meant, and not
the utterly abstract and pointless interpretation so many Christians give.
It depends on the neighbour if it will work or not.

Anyway, what about the demand that Christians should give up *all* their
possessions? Do you really think that does not mess up individuals or
societies within our society?


>In what area?  Psychology?  I am sure Dr. Cohen is a very good psychologist.
>But does he really have any answers?  Is he also an expert in joyful living?
>Is anyone but God really an expert in anything?

Sigh. What god - Shiva? Maybe.

Anyway, since the gods refuse to communicate their expertise on the various
fields in a reliable and testable form, we are stuck with the knowledge we
have. 'God' is only a red herring in the context.

And when 'god' is an expert in joyful living why is the bible so full of his
wrath and anger at his own creation?


Dr. Cohen's text implies that being a Bible Believer is reducing your chances
of having a joyful life. That's an important conclusion.
   Benedikt
From: Ian.Douglas@f119.n7102.z5.fidonet.org (Ian Douglas)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Ok, truce?
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:40:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7102/119 - Zero 2 Infinity, CT

Hi All!

On 19 Dec 92, HEATHER LEE FYFFE wrote to All:

 HLF> I did not try to imply that all atheists are me-ists.  I got going about
 HLF> me- ism (which, by the way, IS rampant in NA, as seen by certain
 HLF> best-selling books which I STUPIDLY have forgotten the titles of but I
 HLF> will get back to you... anyway...), and I still hold to what I said about
 HLF> the negative aspects of selfish me-ism.  It is possible to be an atheist
 HLF> without being a me-ist.  I can see that many of you do care about the
 HLF> world and it's people.  However, it is also obvious that there _are_ some
 HLF> of you who don' t... there are people like that in all religions as well,
 HLF> including Christianity.

Why do you type your name in capital letters?
What is wrong with being selfish?

    Reality doesn't go away, even if you choose to ignore it.

Cheers, Ian


--  
INTERNET: Ian.Douglas@f119.n7102.z5.fidonet.org
via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
From: rkoehler@author.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bob Koehler)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: An open question on the A.A FAQ/Intro ...
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:11:00 GMT
Organization: CSC System Sciences Division
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Dec28.204710.14651@dbased.nuo.dec.com>, news@illusn.enet.dec.com (Mark Sornson) writes...
> 
>    I have a question that is derived from part of the alt.atheism
>    FAQ: Introduction ... that was posted recently.
> 
>    Although I'm NOT an atheist (which I feel I should state up front), I'm
>    sincerely interested in hearing honest answers to my question(s).  
>

[background deleted]

>    My question is:
> 
>        Q:  For anyone (currently an atheist) who has had this experience
>            (having spent time in prayer trying to reach God), what did it
>            mean for you to have tried to reach God?  (In other words what
>            were you praying for and what sort of answer were you hoping
>            to receive?)
> 

[reason for asking deleted]

>    One point from the outline was that some people are atheists because in
>    the course of their education, they are influenced by authority-figures
>    (particularly in the realm of science) who are also atheists -- which
>    is to say that some follow the course of their 'intellectual superiors'
>    due to the fact that they ARE viewed as authorities (which, I believe,
>    is similar to the notion that some people become religious because the
>    authority figures in their life are also religious).  If anyone has
>    something to say on this point, I'd be willing to listen to it as well.
> 

In answer to your question, in my experience, I simply asked Him for belief in
Him.  Didn't think that was too much to ask, since all the religions I had
studied implied (or demanded) that He not only existed, but also that He wanted
me to know He existed.  Not having gained faith through this route has somewhat
strenghtened my convition that He does not exist.  (But I will continue to
capitalize pronouns out of respect for English language convention, and the
beleifs of others, I really think its OK for them to happen to be in error.)

In response to your discourse on authority figures, at no time in my life have
I known that any authority figure I've dealt with was an atheist.  Almost all
of the people who have influenced my life and thoughts were well known not to
be atheists.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Koehler                     |   Any illusion to these opinions being other
rkoehler@author.gsfc.nasa.gov   |   than just mine alone is just that.

 " Life is life, and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die. "
                         - Blixie
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: About circumcision
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:38:35 GMT
Organization: IBM Research
Followup-To: alt.atheism,misc.kids

In article <1992Dec19.015857.25809@colorado.edu>, maman@mars.Colorado.EDU (Nathan M. Maman) writes:

|> 
|> By another way, Rambam (Maimonides) explained why Jews are
|> circumsized.  The hygienic part is not the main part.  I remember
|> (well I hope) he wrote that humans were made perfect by God but as
|> they were part mud, they have a moral imperfection: they like sex too
|> much.  So to avoid masturbation and lust, they remove this part so the
|> penis will irritate easily.
|> 

Could you post where Rambam wrote that?
This seems very unlike modern Jewish teaching.

I'd also be very surprised if studies were to
show that Jewish men and boys masturbated less.

(Followups restricted to alt.atheism, where the
thread started, and misc.kids, for which the topic
is conceivably relevant.)

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:55:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.063253.3689@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>
>There's no moderator in a.a.  He's just setting his newsreader to
>automatically skip articles on this topic, so he doesn't need to read
>our bickering.  

Hey, what if I do that too? 8)

>
>SD


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: skinner@sp94.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Criticism: "There's no logic in Christianity"
Keywords: logic, fallacy, FAQ
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 21:38:29 GMT

In talk.religion.misc, Kent Sandvik suggested that "there's no logic
in Christianity".  When pressed to back up his statement, he argued
that because there is not universal agreement on some of the premises
of Christianity (e.g. all sin; God exists; etc.), Christianity is
without logic.

I pointed out to him that an argument may be valid even if the
premises are false.  Mr. Sandvik disagrees.  I am prepared to leave
him to his fallacy.  Perhaps someone who contributed to the relevant
section of the Alt.Atheism FAQ, "Constructing a Logical Argument"
would be willing to explain to Mr. Sandvik his error.  Explanations
coming from any source associated with Christianity are not acceptable
to him, even if they include nonpartisan evidence such as truth
tables.


                        Gregg Skinner


			Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
			whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
			Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you;
			rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

					 Attributed to Solomon
					 Proverbs 9 (NIV)





Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 06:32:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.235629.19142@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <schnitzi.725649775@eola.cs.ucf.edu> schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes:
>>
>>Gee, what was the topic?  It's been so long...
>>
>>That's it.  I'm killing this whole thread.  Change the title if you want
>>to start discussing the subject again.  I'm sick of this arguing about 
>>arguing.
>
>Yeah, well it has degenerated quite much. So many 'discussions' or 'debates'
>turn out into guys pointlessly picking each other's noses without even
>taking into consideration the original topic.
>
>BTW, you a moderator or something?

There's no moderator in a.a.  He's just setting his newsreader to
automatically skip articles on this topic, so he doesn't need to read
our bickering.  

SD

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Violence in the bible?
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:51:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.214650.8703@nwnexus.WA.COM> pcrayne@halcyon.com (Peter C. Crayne) writes:
}Hi all. I am posting without first reading the FAQ! At least nobody on
}this newsgroup is likely to tell me that I'll be smitten down with flame
}for it. :-) (Except virtual flame, perhaps).
}
}Anyway, I was recently discussing religious matters with a friend who is
}semi-religious. I havn't decided whether I'm a weak athiest or an
}angnostic. I was relating the story of some prophet or other who, after
}communing with god in the wilderness comes back into town, wherupon he
}is teased by children. The prophet calls upon god to punish them, and
}god send wild animals to kill them, and they are devoured.
}My friend claims "I've read the whole bible and that story isn't in it".
}I am pretty sure it is, but I'm not really qualified to dispute him. I
}don't seem to have a bible anymore, and rejected church & sunday school
}at an early age. My bible knowledge is therefore fairly thin.
}Can anybody nail this one down for me?

Check Ezekiel.  Those bibliophiles don't know there own book very well.
The animals were bears, and he was being teased for being bald...


Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Lockheed Engineering and Sciences
Distribution: world,public
Date:  3 Jan 93 20:33:44 GMT

Why do weight lifters keep lifting weights when they know they are capable
of lifting the weight?

				Craig
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Tax the Church
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 17:15:31 GMT

mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:

>I'm in full agreement.  I find it appalling that more and more property gets 
>bought up by religious organizations and taken off the tax rolls.

Now it's my turn to ask for a citation.  I had not noticed any such explosion.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 21:30:40 GMT

Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec31.131034.14786@news.columbia.edu> rj24@cunixb.cc.columbia
.edu (Robert  Johnston) writes:

[deletia following deletia]

: >By the way, I am extremely interested in finding out why you are so
: >convinced that there are no invisible pink unicorns prancing about in
: >my attic. I am, of course, making here an assumption about your beliefs.
: >If you believe otherwise, I apologize.
:
: Exactly what I mean about interaction.  I respond to this which in turn
: someone else thinks I'm "shoving God down there throut".
:
: But if you are serious about your question,  For One: you seem to be the
: only one claiming you have invisible pink unicorns in your attic.
:
: I'm not sure what you assumed but yes I am a "Christian".

So, are you convinced there are no ipu's in Mr. Johnston's attic?  What do you
thing the chances are of finding ipu's in my attic?
-- 
Mike McAngus                    |You are a fluke of the Universe.  You have no 
mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org            |right to be here, and whether you can hear it
The Truth is still the Truth    |or not the Universe is laughing behind your 
Even if you choose to ignore it.|back.  -- National Lampoon, Deteriorata
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan