HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gen Con, dealers area, Copyrights and MORE!
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:05:12 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: GE Power Generation

In article <1992Nov11.160942.28046@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>,
brehob@plantain.cps.msu.edu (Mark W Brehob) wrote:
> 
> 
> I  (like 1/2 the rest of frp land) am looking at starting up a gaming  
> company.
> 
> I have a number of questions, and I am sure that there are other questions
> I probably need answers to that I haven't thought of yet.
> 
> Here we go:
> 
> 1) Can anyone explain the laws/rules/guidelines for using other companies
> games and products. I have seen people putting out "compatible with AD&D"  
> stuff before.  Do they have TSR's permission?  What can one do legally?  
> 

If you want to publish material which is specifically designed to be
compatible 
with AD&D (e.g. Mayfair's Role Aids series), you have to get a licensing 
agreement from TSR. Your lawyer should be able to give you some advice 
re: that.

> 2) Any clues on how much dealer space is at Gen Con?  I've been going for 
> 10 years, but never bothered to ask anyone.
>

Gaming space is $25 a square, but I reckon dealer room space is *much*
more expensive. Write or FAX Harold Johnson @ TSR (sorry, I don't have
the number handy) for a dealer packet.
 
> 3) Anyone in Michigan know of a cheap printing firm?
> I'm starting to look in East Lancing and Lancing, but would love  
> recommendations.  Also, anyone have an idea what 'reasonable costs' are?
> 

Don't relegate your printing to an East Lancing firm (or even one in 
Michigan) without pricing printers out of state. I honestly don't know how 
you would go about contacting them for basic information; nor do I know
anything about sending a printer specs for proposal (etc.), but I would
think your local Chamber of Commerce could at least point you in the 
right direction.

Hope this helps.

Spike
From: v116qhth@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (I'm not evil...I'm just good looking)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: help
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:52:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


  How do I post a file, within my mail message?
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:52:46 GMT

doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>>	As an example, let us consider someone relatively new to the game 
>>system is handed a character sheet, and shortly after starting, he is asked 
>>to make a roll to test his willpower. "How do I do that?" he asks. In RQ, 
>>someone will answer, "Roll under 5xPOW." (Guessing here, I don't really 
>>know RQ, either). In GURPS, someone will say, "Roll your IQ, unless you 
>>have the advantage of Strong Will or the disadvantage of Weak Will, in 
>>which case you add that modifier to your roll, but any roll of 14 and 
>>above is automatically a failure." 
>
>IMHO, your example has a little flaw.  If someone relatively new to the game
>system is just handed a character sheet and not given time to acquaint himself
>to it, I will assume that you are at a convention; otherwise there's no excuse
>for this.  In that case, it is trivial for the GM, who created the character,
>to write "(Will = XX)" next to the advantage.  

	It may be true that there is no excuse for this - but I have seen it 
frequently in both tournaments and in campaigns. Out of an estimated ten 
tournaments, I have never seen the notation '(Will = XX)', and out of three 
extended campaigns, I have often heard the question asked by new players. 
(I have also rarely seen a GURPS GM check PC stats when they make a roll, 
which was part of Steffan O'Sullivan's suggestion for dealing with this). 

>
>If this is done, both methods are equally easy.

	With that done, I would agree that they are pretty much the same.
What I wanted to refute a statement that 'Since GURPS has only four stats, 
things are kept simple'. 
	It is mostly a matter of preference whether you want to have some 
stats written down, or have to figure them out by looking over or remembering 
a list. However, neither case makes things simpler or more complex. 

>
>As for most GURPS characters having 10 advantages/disadvantages, I suspect 
>that either you play a much more high-powered game than I, or the players were
>trying to get points in what they thought were slimy ways by taking 8 5-point
>disadvantages.

	If I said that the average number of ads/disads was ten, then I'm 
sorry - I do not think this is the case. In my experience, the average number 
of disads was four or five, and the average number of advantages was three or 
four. Two of the three campaigns I was in started at 150pts, the other started 
at 100pts. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You don't need a weatherman to know which way
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | the wind blows."
Columbia University         |                             - Bob Dylan
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:3135 rec.games.frp.dnd:6020 rec.games.frp.misc:8012
From: gdg019@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:35:19 GMT
Organization: Pig Heaven, Coventry, UK

In article <BxGBKD.2EI@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>I'd like to address another issue raised by opponents of rec.games.frp.campaign.
>Namely, many people have disected it and told me basicly that each component of
>.campaign can be placed in a different existing .frp newsgroup.

No, no, no! What I was saying is that everything rec.games.frp.campaign wants
to do, people are doing NOW in legitimate newsgroups. There's a difference
between that and a newsgroup that's providing a brand new service. Come back
to me whoever's running rgf.archives if I'm wrong, but I'd say archives can
handle this pretty well.

Rid.

-- 
                  Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig
*On a Flowery	     gdg019@cck.coventry.ac.uk          Space Trip!*
		 ---------------------------------
            "I wonder what Freud would make of THAT?" - Perry Hinton
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:3122 news.groups:20632
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.frp.campaign
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 8 Nov 1992 17:05:26 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu
Summary: *WHY?!?!?!*

Travis writes:
>I think that we don't really need this as a place to run campaigns in, 
>However the idea of a forum in which to discuss ideas relating to campaign 
>games and issues relating to campaigns is a good idea.

Congratulations.  You've just hit on the *exact* job of rec.games.frp
{misc | dnd} depending on whether you are playing xD&D or not.  Why 
not there?

The only reason I can think of is that it is (is someone's opinion)
too crowded.  *I* don't find it too crowded, and can find the stuff
I want fine (provided people put descriptive subjects out there).

Crossposted to news.groups, and followups to news.groups.  If you say
the group is getting too crowded, you should post this stuff where it
belongs.

-- 
"Why isn't there a special name for the tops of your feet?"
		-- Lily Tomlin
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Point Allocation vs Random Generation
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:25:01 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <1992Nov11.165943.3825@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy) writes:
> In article <loren.199@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>>The satisfaction that the player gets from distributing points in a PA 
>>system is pretty darn small, IMHO. If you live for that satisfaction then 
>>bully for you, but I see no reason to force everyone else to believe like 
>>you do.
> 
> 	The issue here is not "forcing everyone to believe as he does".
> Or I could say that you are trying to "force" your views that 
> point-generation is boring.  And Nick Janow is trying to "force"
> everyone to believe that the two systems are equal.  You could have just
> as well told him that he is trying to "force" everyone to believe as he
> does.  As I've explained in other newsgroups, nobody walks around
> waiting to be persuaded to the opposite opinion.  Oh yeah, and don't
> try to "force" me to think I'm wrong on this by writing a rebuttal.

Don't be silly. You and I agree that people are going to keep their
opinions, and that nobody is going to walk around asking to have their
opinions on random characters or point balanced characters changed by a
character design missionary. The problem with Dave's argument is that he
assumes that you can *prove* that point allocation is superior to random
rolling, that Truth is meaningful and can be objectively determined. In
short, he tried to convert his opponent in this debate to his own value
system. If you do not believe, as Dave does, that one opinion or another
can be objectively determined to be superior, then his argument will
never get anywhere. If you accept his assumptions then his conclusions
follow naturally, but if you accept them then you are converted and he
has "forced" or "caused" you to believe as he does.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Character Detail
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:06:52 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <1992Nov3.222655.18682@news.columbia.edu>, jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>
>	As an example, let us consider someone relatively new to the game 
>system is handed a character sheet, and shortly after starting, he is asked 
>to make a roll to test his willpower. "How do I do that?" he asks. In RQ, 
>someone will answer, "Roll under 5xPOW." (Guessing here, I don't really 
>know RQ, either). In GURPS, someone will say, "Roll your IQ, unless you 
>have the advantage of Strong Will or the disadvantage of Weak Will, in 
>which case you add that modifier to your roll, but any roll of 14 and 
>above is automatically a failure." 

ALERT!  ALERT!

IMHO, your example has a little flaw.  If someone relatively new to the game
system is just handed a character sheet and not given time to acquaint himself
to it, I will assume that you are at a convention; otherwise there's no excuse
for this.  In that case, it is trivial for the GM, who created the character,
to write "(Will = XX)" next to the advantage.  The GM can then say "If you have
Strong Will or Weak Will, look at that.  Otherwise it's your IQ."

If this is done, both methods are equally easy.

On the other hand, if the player has created the character, presumably with the
help of the GM, then first, the player should KNOW that he has built the
character with Strong Will or Weak Will, and second, the GM should do as above
in the case of a convention.

As for most GURPS characters having 10 advantages/disadvantages, I suspect that
either you play a much more high-powered game than I, or the players were
trying to get points in what they thought were slimy ways by taking 8 5-point
disadvantages.


-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: fts5792@cs.tamu.edu (Frank T Sronce)
Subject: Re: Advantages
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:28:33 GMT

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advantages
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Keywords: 

In article <40680@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike) writes:
>In article <17132@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>>I previously mentioned that GURPS advantages sounded like highly quantized
>>attributes.  A "Strong Will" advantage is basically the same as a "Will"
>>attribute with only three possibilities: average (not appearing on character
>>sheet), exceptionally high, or exceptionally low.
>
>>
Actually, I think one of GURPS's problems lies not in the system itself but
in the character sheet design. Champions wisely puts the commonly used
attribute-based checks like Perception on the character sheet. Just a small
box with "Per Roll: __" and such in it. 

I think GURPS would be helped by having a spot by the attributes themselves
to mark modifiers, instead of having to remember to also always check the
"advantages, disadvantages, and quirks" box at the bottom.

ie-

IQ 14 ... Strong Will(+3), Hard of Hearing(-4)


This makes it a lot more obvious that the character has conditional modifiers
to his attributes, and prevents a lot of "Whoops, sorry, forgot about my
Low Pain Threshold again..." among inexperienced players.

Kiz

ps- Anybody designed a better GURPS character sheet? I find that the character
sheets used by a LOT of games could really use some work.

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Travis Casey)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.frp.campaign
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
Organization: F.S.U. Dept of Physics
Distribution:  world
Date:  7 NOV 92 20:55:42    

	I think that we don't really need this as a place to run campaigns
in, and that posting ongoing stories of campaigns should be done to rec.games.
frp.archives, as is done now.  However, the idea of a forum in which to discuss
ideas relating to campaign games and issues relating to campaigns is a good 
idea.
	Such a forum should be used for non-rule-specific matters about
running campaigns.  For example, methods of organizing NPC info, how to go
about creating a world, how magic should affect societies, and other such
issues would all be fine for discussion.

	Just my $0.02 worth.

Travis
picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
"He-who-has-no-.sig"
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu 
Subject: INFO! Btech, Po-Mo...
Originator: curtis@c00090-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu 
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:19:55 GMT


Hi.  I'm doing a research/thesis project on popular culture concerning gaming 
based around the FASA Battletech gaming system and all of the associated
media/materials/systems that surround it.  Any information 
concerning:

	The VR battletech,
	Battletech MUDS, etc,
	GENIE's new Btech simulator game,
	Battletech newletters, groups, etc,
	Anything concerning the Btech novelizations,	
	Any battletech software/shareware,
	FTP sites, 
	resource listings, 
	newsgroups,
	and anything related that comes to mind

would be excellent.  Thankyou.

curtis@eos.ncsu.edu
--
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: new rec.games.frp.* groups
Date: 12 Nov 92 05:11:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <1992Nov11.145006.17461@lunatix.uucp>, lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett) writes:
> However, mebbe I shouldn't put this in advocacy, so I redirected follow-ups
> there.  I'm sorry.  I've been reading this group for awhile, but I
> don't post very often, so I sometimes make newbie type mistakes :).

Don't worry. You're doing fine. Your posts make sense. Keep on posting.

I made my comments simply to inform anyone who was paying attention how
my thinking went when I ran the split. I think the split worked, for the
most part. I think it's sad that we in misc miss a few of the more
interesting lines of discussion on dnd, but I think that's because of
all the new readers who went straight to dnd, never read rec.games.frp,
and think that dnd is the end-all of roleplaying games. If they pay
attention they'll eventually notice us in advocacy and misc, and by that
time they might be versed enough in net manners to make a positive
contribution to advocacy, misc and especially to archives, which is my
favorite among the new groups. (subliminal message: Please post more
stuff to archives) We might even get some defenders of xdnd in advocacy!
Wouldn't that be a change?!

> Well I'd have to agree about people sticking the name of their newsgroup in
> a killfile...that never occurred to me.  However, surely putting "cyber" or
> "shadowrun" in one doesn't fall into the same category?  I thought that was
> the recommended way for dealing with a lot of posts on game systems one
> doesn't play and isn't interested in?  Since I personally don't use a 

Assuming you're using rn, just put the following lines in any extremely
active killfile.

/RFD/:M
/CFV/:M

Now if a RFD or CFV comes up you will still catch it.

> I don't believe I phrased my comments very well.  I agree with you that both
> xdnd and .misc work well.  This was one of the more major points (in my
> opinion, of course) brought up in the original split discussion...that there
> would be a loss of dissemination of ideas.  What I'm trying to say is that
> I believe there is that loss...tho it is very small and relatively unimportant

I agree. I think people called that cross-pollination during the
successful RFD discussion. We lost some of it. We also don't get as many
energetic newbies in misc as we did in rgf before the split, they all go
to dnd. This may actually be a bigger problem with the current state of
affairs. I know that part of the idea was to get rid of the newbies and
save misc for the grouchy old-timers (hah!) but it worked better than
any of us expected. If we get rid of shadowrun there may be no new
readers at all in this group.

Keep on posting, Laura.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advantages
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:11:22 GMT
Reply-To: cassidy@cps.msu.edu (John J Cassidy)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: cassidy@swallow.cps.msu.edu

In article <17221@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>
>Oh, I see.  The "simple" GURPS system is even more complicated than I
>thought. Not only do you have to check attributes and
>advantages/disadvantages, you may have to add numbers in game time...or does
>the player write down "WILL = <number calculated from advantage level and IQ
>and anything else that applies>"?
>
>Sounds kludgey to me.  :)
>
>--
>
>Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca

	To use your own words, I guess that calculation of adding a
single digit number ( 90% of the time ) to a double digit number--
almost always under 20 -- is a bigger problem if you ROLL-play.

	John J Cassidy		cassidy@cps.msu.edu
	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	      "It never hurts to help" -- Eek
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advantages
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:54:26 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <17132@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>I previously mentioned that GURPS advantages sounded like highly quantized
>attributes.  A "Strong Will" advantage is basically the same as a "Will"
>attribute with only three possibilities: average (not appearing on character
>sheet), exceptionally high, or exceptionally low.
>
>How many of these attributes-that-are-not-labeled-attributes does the typical
>GURPS character have, and are they really easier to keep track of than 15
>attributes set in a nice, clean 5x3 matrix that is standard for all
>characters?

As I stated about a week ago (talk about non-interacting articles...B^), in
my experience the average GURPS character probably has about four disadvantages
and two or three advantages.  Some of these are purely role-playing... no
"number" required, so I would say that the average GURPS character has perhaps
four or five "attributes-that-are-not-labeled-attributes," as you call them.
Since these are all kept in the same place (and in the character sheets I use
just below the actual attributes) I would say that yes, they are easier to keep
track of than 15 attributes set in a nice, clean, 5x3 matrix that is standard,
because for some of them I will want to make notes next to the attributes for
various things (Fatigue next to ST, Wounds next to HT, basic swing and thrust
damage, etc.) which are closely related to the attributes.  I have designed a
character sheet which fits everything "standard" on one page, in an arrangement
I like, which I use for ALL characters.  I occasionally have to move a line a
quarter of an inch or so, but not often.  On the other hand, having
approximately Eidetic Memory 1, I tend to know where on the sheet anything I
want to know is anyway (assuming I can't refine the picture sufficiently in my
head), so it probably doesn't matter a whole lot for me....
Anyway, if I was playing a game with 15 attributes, I'd want them in a single
column, not a 5x3 matrix.  Maybe it's just an old habit learned 10 years ago
with D&D, but it's my preference.

In the end, I suspect that that's what this discussion comes down to, this
being advocacy and all.


-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
From: meierdalepau@bvc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Distribution Problem
Date: 9 Nov 92 11:29:29 CDT
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA


	Thanks to all of you who informed me about the fact that I can 
change the distribution of my postings.  It would be great if I could, but 
we don't have that option here at Buena Vista.  All of our postings are 
relayed from here to Iowa State University and THEN relayed to other areas. 
 Sorry.

Dale Meier
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
From: jacobus@cantata.cc.purdue.edu (Kirsten Jacobus)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:06:33 GMT

I might suggest one alteration:


"rec.games.frp.archives.campaign"


It seems that a good deal of what the proposal mentions ought to fit
within rec.games.frp.archives, so if a new group is formed, the name
might want to reflect that.


(For those of you who do not read advocacy and want to know what on earth
I'm talking about, you might want to look.)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy