From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:21:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug27.195038.6568@linus.mitre.org> ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
>
>     3.The puppet occupation governments set up by the Soviets were
>therefore also illegal.

Sorry, do not tell that to Finns :). Their acting goverment
were set in 1918 by German occupants. Those occupants had collaborators,
of course. I do not remember any borderline between 1918 goverment
and today's goverement, which is just fine with me. My point is that
even puppet goverment may evolve to something decent. In fact, there
were gradual transition from Suprem Soviet of Estonin Republic to
today's goverment, too. After all independence were proclaimed by
that puppet goverement. 

>
>     6. Violations of Estonian law (such as illegal immigration)
>committed under the protection of the illegal occupation government
>remain violations of Estonian law.

I certanly will not agree with that. Is producing arms for enemy of
your country violation of your country laws? Goods? Food? I would
call it treason. Can you sue every Estonian citizen for that?

>
>      If you disagree 3 or 6, then you have to accept that other
>actions taken by occupying forces - such as the execution of Soviet
>partisans by the Nazis - were legal. I don't think you do.

I think there are other choices.

>that intended by the "citizenship by location of birth" idea.  Their
>situation is more like that of the Taipans of China, the Italians of
>Libya, the French of Algeria, and the Moors of Spain. All of these, as

Can you give the example of more civilised nations? Do you really want
that comparing you country with Libia makes it honor? I can give you
opposite example, not quite the same, but close enough: repatriation
of Germans from Sudets. I agree, that is not the same situation. 

Other example is fate of German/Ostrians in Czechoslovakia. As far as I
remember there were no expatriation, before 1945. I beilive, that no
language tests were made, As far as I know, in fact in German vilages
people could live well, without knowledge of Czech. Even today
children there (in few remaining villages) learn German as first language,
and than Czech, when they grow up. Another example may be Elzas/Lotaringia (spelling?). I am not good in history of this land, but
I think it became French in 1919. Was any expelling/persecution there?

General point is that Russian, living today in Estonia are not guilty
in anything. Children are not responsible for the parents sins.
They will learn Estonian eventually, no doubt, like Swiss learning
all languages of thier country. Stop thinking about them as different
people. I think Swiss is good example. Who live there? Germans,
French, Italians? No, citizens of Switzeland. Each speaking
their own language, and each fierce patriots of ? Swtzeland, of course.

Yury.


>their supporting empires fell, were expelled as non-citizens from the
>place they had been born, despite having lived there for generations
>(and in the case of the Moors, centuries).
>
>     From this I would argue that the process of decolonization
>frequently includes the ability (if desired) of the newly freed nation
>to expel people who arrived under the flag of the occupying power,
>along with their direct descendants. This is simply restitution of the
>situation prior to the invasion.
>
>     As far as I am aware (I may need correction on this), Estonia is
>NOT proposing to expel anyone - only to deny naturalization to those
>who refuse to assimilate.
>
>[      Does anyone have good figures for the number of Soviets who	]
>[ emigrated to Estonia during the occupation, and the number of their	]
>[ descendants born on Estonian soil? 					]
>
>     I'll be interested in seeing people's comments on this.
>
>							Peter Trei
>
>PS: Try watching "The Battle of Algiers". - a great film, regardless
>of what you think of the sides involved.
>