Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.
Date: Tuesday, 21 Jul 1992 15:15:21 IST
From: Irina Abramovici <CCAIIRE@TECHNION.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
 <1992Jul13.183919.956@jade.tufts.edu> <92198.120535CCAIIRE@TECHNION.BITNET>
 <1992Jul16.213709.10954@jade.tufts.edu>


In article <1992Jul16.213709.10954@jade.tufts.edu>  nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu
(Nissan Raclaw)

>        I mentioned that I don't believe and I would be sorely shocked,
>and maybe that's a good thing, to see that the Arabs of Israel voted for
>the right in any significant numbers.  I could be wrong, but I think
>only someone who really thinks the Arabs are stupid would assume that
>they voted for say - NRP, Moledet, Tzomet, Tchiya (no one voted for
>them!).

If we are discussing "assumptions", Israeli commentators assumed that
the Israeli Arabs who voted for Shas now, voted previously for the NRP,
for much of the same reasons. Now I assume they say so because they
really think the Arabs stupid.:-)

As an aside, I notice you left Shas out of your list of right wing
parties, so I further assume that you think them left wing:-). I harbour
some doubts that they'd like being labelled so, but, if these are the
only parties you think right wing, then I fail to see that overhelmingly
Jewish majority which voted for them.

Let's see:

NRP      --- 6 mandates,  129,601 votes
Moledet  --- 3 mandates,   62,247 votes
Tzomet   --- 8 mandates,  166,247 votes
Thyia    --- 0 mandates,   31,938 votes
          -----------------------------
            17 mandates,  390,033

Total seats in the Knesset: 120
Total votes cast: 2,657,327

Even if we subtract the Arab votes, I yet fail to understand how was
the view of a minority of the Jews being imposed over the view of the
majority, with the help of the Arab votes.

And a last remark: I'm pleased to see you left not only Shas, but the
United Torah Jewry out of the list of right wing parties, too. Maybe
they sound left wing to you, or is it because they are yet considering
to enter the Gvnmt? Should Tzomet join the coalition, would you then say
they're left wing? They are still considering this alternative, like the UTJ.

>        Irina, my point was (and by the way, I had no way to know about
>Sharon's speech, what I posted was purely my own interpretation) not
>that the Arabs changed voting patterns ( although I believe that more of
>them voted as they have been encouraged to do so obliquely by the PLO
>and Islamic leaders),

Ooops! They could by no stretch of logic have voted as encouraged both
by the PLO and the Islamic leaders, as the PLO would have liked them to
vote massively for one strong un-Zionist Arab party, while the Islamic
leaders' opinions were split between urging Muslims NOT to vote and thus
disassociate themselves from the state, and urging Muslims to take
active part in the political life of the state, as long as religious
liberty is guaranteed.

Both PLO and Hamas got disappointed; while some of the Arabs spilt their
vote between several little weak Arab parties, a majority of them voted
for Zionist parties. THAT was the great surprise of these elections:
while shifting their vote inside the left wing, they actually shifted
from extreme left and un-Zionist parties to Zionist ones. Facts are
more telling about how they feel, then mere speculations.

Let's see:

Party                  Seats 1992   Seats 1988   Votes 1992 Votes 1988

Democratic Front           3             4           62,138    84,032
Arab Democratic Party      2             1           40,799    27,012
Progressive List           0             1           24,069    33,695


>                      but that without the Arab factor the Likud-right
>would still reign, even with the ex-Soviet and first-timers' votes for
>the Left.  Clearly the nation has been disenchanted with the right, but,
>without the Arab vote, they would have re-elected the right,
>nonetheless.

Without the Arab vote, there would have been less total votes cast, and
thus less votes necessary to win a mandate. While I can't make this
calculations on one leg, (it took a whole team a few days to distribute
the seats in the Knesseth), I am yet not no sure you're right.

If you subtract the Arab votes from the total votes cast for Labour and
Meretz, the total is yet very close to the total of votes cast for Likud,
Tzomet, Moledet, and NRP. The ones to decide who's going to form the
Gvmnt would have been the Haredi parties, which ironically do not
think that there should be an Israeli state. While I think that they should
definitely have the right to vote, I fail to see why would it have been
any more democratic to have the Haredi minority actually decide the fate
of the majority. No Arabs in this calculation; no democracy, either!:-)

>              Essentially, I am saying that it appears that the Jews
>support the left, it is not the case.  Jews support the right, while
>Jews with the support of the Arabs brought the Left to power.  As a

I already asked you, and it was a genuine request: if you have facts
and numbers to support your point of view, please post them. If not,
please desist from posting rhetoric as facts.

>Jew, I ask you -- do the Arabs have the right to rule Israel, peacefully
>and democratically?

I'll answer this AFTER I'll get persuaded that they have the means to.
Meanwhile, I'll merely state that the Israeli Arabs have the right to
vote as they perceive their interests dictate, within the frame of the
Israeli law. Just like Jews cast their vote in France, England, USA.
Did German-Americans and Italian-Americans vote during WWII? (They
did some more, they faught for the Allied forces.:-)

>                     BTW, if you think that the Arabs of Israel are,
>generally, loyal to the Jewish state, then you really must think of them
>as ignoramuses who care only for their daily bread.  I, for one, believe

I would appreciate it if you'd let ME say what *I* think about the
Israeli Arabs, instead of telling me what I must think. I've been told
what I must think for more years than you probably lived, and I'm pretty
touchy about this matter, although your use of the expression carries a
different connotation.

Further, as I'm not a mind reader, I'd rather believe deeds than
speculations, and the fact is, the Israeli Arabs shifted the vote in
FAVOR of Zionist parties. If anything, this shows they are more willing
than in the past to pay loyalty to the state. Or how else do you explain
this?

>that they are NOT loyal to Israel, just as I would not be loyal to Pat
>Robertson's Christian States of America.  I do not think this is
>unexpected, nor do I think it is bad, it is just human nature.  How
>would you feel toward a Christian state for Christians, whose holidays
>are Christian, whose symbols are Christian, whose anthem speaks of
>Jesus, etc. as a Jew?   And how would you feel when the left wing of

I never asked myself these questions. I lived in a secular state, which
surppressed ANY religious manifestations, be they Xtian, Jewish or
Muslim, and the anthem's first verses were: "I know of three sacred
collors,/ Given me as a gift and a reminder by my ancestors". Had the
anthem or the religion been my main problems, I would yet live there.

And I hate to surprise you, but I still feel affinities with the Romanians,
in spite of my deciding that I did not belong with them.

>that state's government said in a speech to the Jewish population (in
>fluent Hebrew, no less!) that you (Jews) are equal, free and an integral
>part of the nation, while the very next week, that same speaker spoke of
>the need to prevent a Jewish majority in the North? And if you were

As the generation of your parents felt in the democratic America, in
which "gentlemen agreements" prevented them to lease appartements in
some American regions... And I would do exactly what they did: fight
down inequality by legal means!

>constantly stopped, while Christians walked around freely?  I wager that
>you would feel no loyalty to such a Christian state; therefore, why
>assume that the Arabs are any different?  The situation for them is
>exactly that of the fictional Jews in my hypothetical case above.  open

Probably. It takes two to tango. Jews are the majority, maybe it depends
upon them to make the Israeli Arabs feel better and thus make more of
them feel more attached and build loyalty to the state, instead of
keeping on in making them feel second class citizens.

>a newspaper or a book about the Arabs of Israel and you can read that
>they do not feel equal.

How could they feel equal, if, as you just pointed out, they are not
TREATED as equals?

>                           Yet, as a Jew, I feel that their full
>integration into the state is a threat to the Jewishness of the State of

Are you saying the status quo is better, or do you suggest that we'd
better get rid of them? What do you propose us to do, burry them all
alive, or shot them first dead?:-)

>Israel.  If this threat does not bother you - that Arabs run things in
>the ostaensibly Jewish state (that means that the Jewishness of Israel
>is less important than its democracy) - then you are not a Zionist and I

Is it not delightful to live and work in Israel, to have my husband
spending one whole month every year for the last six years in the
Israeli army, to face the soon to come fact that my children will be
spending two and respectively three years in the same pleasant place, to
have to cope with little nuisances caused by male colleagues going from
time to time to miluim, and and be told what is and what is not Zionism
by someone posting from Medford, MA? I don't seem to find it on Israel's
map:-). You see, should the worst arrive, I'd rather pay the price of my
own misjudgement, than that of trusting your judgement above mine.

>can respect that and see the logic in such a fair democratic position,
>BUT you can't have your cake and eat it too!

When I was a child my mom taught me it's a display of bad manners to eat
in an office, or in a train compartment, without inviting the people there
present to share the meal. As I grew older, I realized that both self
interest and common sense concur to accredit this courteous custom.

Irina Abramovici
ccaiire@technion.technion.ac.il