HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wwolf@zooid.guild.org (White Wolf)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs,alt.business.multi-level
Subject: Re: ILLEGAL TO OPERATE MULTI-LEVEL WITH PURE MONEY TRANSACTIONS??
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:10:09 GMT

From: shm@phoenix.syl.nj.nec.com (Shailendra Majmundar)
>Is it illegal to form a pyramid system without selling a product? What I
>mean is that a system may be formed by which the people at the bottom
>of the pyramid would contribute x amount with an incentive to go up
>the ladder while the money be distributed in the pyramid top down? It
>would be similar to what Amway does, excepting that here there would be
>no selling of products, simply PURE MONEY GAMES.
>
>Note that this would not be gambling or game of chance. Statistical 
>formula can tell exactly how much a guy would make if the pyramid runs
>okey. 
>
>Sam (shm@syl.nj.nec.com)
>
>PS: My thoughts and whims are mine only.
 
     Very illegal in Canada.
 
     Most likely illegal in the U.S. as well.
 
     That's why they call them pyramid scams...
 
                           W.W.
.
From: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Visa/MC fulfillment card reader *LEASE COST*
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:25:28 GMT
Reply-To: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Organization: Peirce Software
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4


In article <1992Jul24.024445.13760@panix.com> (misc.entrepreneurs), awerman@panix.com (Aaron Werman) writes:
> I am considering getting Visa/MC services from Cherry Payment Systems. The
> deal is:
> 
> 	-They will charge (about) 3.5% of charges, + about $25 a month fixed
> 	fees + $.20 per transaction.
> 
> 	-I am required to lease a card reader (which I won't use since most
> 	of the business is phone or mail order) which goes on a non-cancelable
> 	lease for 48 months at $90 + tax a month.
> 
> My problem is with the latter. The reader seems to be required as part of the
> Cherry product (it is leased from a subsidiary). The $4,000+ lease seems 
> exorbanent, but the value of the credit card service would justify it if there
> is no other option. If anyone has researched alternatives, I would be interested
> in hearing about you experiences.
> 
> Even if I apply through Cherry, my chances of approval are about 30-40%
> (according to the salesman) because most of my business is not through direct
> contact

When I was setting up charge handling for Peirce Software I ran across
a similar lease.  I asked the provider if I could buy it outright.
They said yes.  It's still a ripoff, but at least a quarter of the
lease cost and I own the damn thing.

For a "mail order" business 5% seems to be the norm when you are first
starting out.  Once you establish a track record - a year or two -
you should again talk to local banks and see if they will take you
for a reasonable percentage.

When I was going through this a few months ago I had a talk with a
friend's brother who works at VISA.  He told me they loose a fortune
from mail order scams.  This is why almost all bank card services
companies charge at least 5% plus a deposit.

We each know that WE AREN'T A SCAM, but they don't.  And sadly, there
are many scam arties out there that screw it up for the rest of us.

--  Michael Peirce      --   peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org
--  Peirce Software     --   Suite 301, 719 Hibiscus Place
--                      --   San Jose, California USA 95117
--  Makers of...        --   voice: (408) 244-6554 fax: (408) 244-6882
--            SMOOTHIE  --   AppleLink: peirce & America Online: AFC Peirce
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: HELP flat broke no job and need capital to get idea(s) off the ground.
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:33:04 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

Does any one know how one can go about obtaining capital to try an idea? I
have no home and no car so bank loans arn't an option, I've been trying for
quite a while to even find contract work with no luck. If I had the $2000
or so required to develop this idea I could easily earn it back in a month
of sales.

-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: dao4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DONALD A. O'SHALL)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: ILLEGAL TO OPERATE MULTI-LEVEL WITH PURE MONEY TRANSACTIONS??
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:47:03 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1992Jul23.141821.26509@research.nj.nec.com>, shm@phoenix.syl.nj.nec.
com (Shailendra Majmundar) writes:
>Is it illegal to form a pyramid system without selling a product? What I
>mean is that a system may be formed by which the people at the bottom
>of the pyramid would contribute x amount with an incentive to go up
>the ladder while the money be distributed in the pyramid top down? It
>would be similar to what Amway does, excepting that here there would be
>no selling of products, simply PURE MONEY GAMES.
>
>Note that this would not be gambling or game of chance. Statistical
>formula can tell exactly how much a guy would make if the pyramid runs
>okey.
>
>Sam (shm@syl.nj.nec.com)
>
>PS: My thoughts and whims are mine only.
>
Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY illegal to do this, and the penalties include Federal
prison for up to five years, confiscation of EVERYTHING you own, and fines
separate from that, as well as prosecution under State and Local laws and
ordinances. Even the QUESTION of whether that is what you are doing can have
dire penalties. Any questions?

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not licensed to practice Law or Medicine in any State, so my opinions are
just that!         DAo4@NS1.CC.LEHIGH.EDU      (Don)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs,alt.business.multi-level
From: shm@phoenix.syl.nj.nec.com (Shailendra Majmundar)
Subject: ILLEGAL TO OPERATE MULTI-LEVEL WITH PURE MONEY TRANSACTIONS??
Reply-To: shm@syl.nj.nec.com
Organization: NEC Systems Laboratory, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 14:18:21 GMT

Is it illegal to form a pyramid system without selling a product? What I
mean is that a system may be formed by which the people at the bottom
of the pyramid would contribute x amount with an incentive to go up
the ladder while the money be distributed in the pyramid top down? It
would be similar to what Amway does, excepting that here there would be
no selling of products, simply PURE MONEY GAMES.

Note that this would not be gambling or game of chance. Statistical 
formula can tell exactly how much a guy would make if the pyramid runs
okey. 

Sam (shm@syl.nj.nec.com)

PS: My thoughts and whims are mine only.
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
From: lmiller@heineken.tuc.nrao.edu (Luther Miller)
Subject: Re: Patent Question
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Tucson Az.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:14:34 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.161007.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.145842.4534@nrao.edu>, lmiller@heineken.tuc.nrao.edu (Luther Miller) writes:
>> In article <1992Jul25.192507.475@riacs.edu> dschlot@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Schlotthauer) writes:
>>>Does anyone know if an idea can be patented? I called a patent search
>>>company and ...
>> 
>> I am almost positive that it is entirely possible to patent and _idea_.
>> 
>> Luther
>
>You cannot patent an idea. You can patent a design, process, thing, or
>other hard item or drawing of such, but the idea itself is not patentable.
>
>(Just think of it : I PATENT THE IDEA OF A FLYING MACHINE.)
>
>|--------------------------------------|----------------------------------|
>| What a wonderful bird the frog are.  | "In fact, except for protecting  |
>| When he stand, he sit, almost.       |  individual rights, no valid     |
>| When he hop, he fly, almost.         |  reason for government exists."  |
>| He ain't got no sense, hardly.       |       ... Dr. Frank Wallace      |
>| He ain't got no tail, hardly, either.|----------------------------------|  
>| When he sit, he sit on what he ain't |          Bill Garland            |  
>| got, almost.          -anonymous     |      bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca        |
>|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

You're right. Design is what I had in mind, not idea.

Luther
From: laws@ai.sri.com (Kenneth I. Laws)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Software Entrepreneur's Forum
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:23:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computists International
In-reply-to: chseow@teenage-mutant.ai.mit.edu's message of 22 Jul 92 00:01:22 GMT

The address is

Software Entrepreneurs' Forum
P.O. Box 61031
Palo Alto, CA  94306

You could also reach SEF through Executive Director
Barbara Cass, (415) 854-7219, 3162817@mcimail.com .

					-- Ken
--

Dr. Kenneth I. Laws, (415) 493-7390, laws@ai.sri.com.
Moderator of the Computists International AI/IS/CS mutual-aid association.
Ask about my weekly online career newsletter, The Computists' Communique.
From: lmiller@heineken.tuc.nrao.edu (Luther Miller)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Compact Disc Wholesalers
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:50:20 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Tucson Az.

In article <1992Jul29.001707.518@megatek.uucp> hellmer@megatek.uucp (Mike Hellmer CAE account) writes:
>lmiller@heineken.tuc.nrao.edu (Luther Miller) writes:
>> In article <1992Jul28.025003.901@megatek.uucp> hellmer@megatek.uucp (Mike Hellmer CAE account) writes:
>> >lmiller@heineken.tuc.nrao.edu (Luther Miller) writes:
>> >> I have been toying with the idea of selling Compact Discs part time at
>> >> college and I would like to find more information on the subject.
>
>[...]
>
>> >
>> >  4) Prices are not as good as you might think. Examples:
>> >
>> >     LIST    WHOLSALE
>> >     ----------------
>> >     $15.99  ~$11     (This is your standard new release POP/ROCK CD)
>> >     $14.99  ~$10
>> >     $13.99  ~$9      (These are getting into the budget or "nice price" CD's)
>
>[...]
>
>> 
>> Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, those prices are quite high. I am going
>> to school in Providence, RI, and there are several small CD shops in the
>> area where new releases are typically sold for $10.99 - $12.99. When I return
>
>$13 for a CD they buy for $11 is not a great markup, but I bet they can make
>a living. Unless they are buying direct I would bet they are paying near 
>the prices above. If you find out otherwise, I'd be more than interested to
>know since no matter who the distributor was, they were all around this price
>last time I checked.

Come to think of it, most of their new releases are 10.99, and last semester
they had a couple of new releases for 9.99 (for example, the Queen compilation
CD that came out a few months ago). Also, the location they are in is prime,
so rent is probably medium to high.

I do know that they are cash only (the particular place with the best prices)
and that they will special order almost anything for you at a good price and
have it within a couple days. A wholesaler can supply them that quickly,
but if what about if they order direct?

Also, when I visited Los Angeles two summers ago, most of large music stores
had new releases in the 9.99 to 10.99 range! Slightly older stuff was a dollar
or two more, if I remember correctly. This summer, however, I am staying in
Tucson and I have yet to find a retailer with decent prices. (I don't consider
anything over 12.99 decent, considering the prices in Providence I can get,
and also considering that the House of Guitars in Rochester, NY sells almost
all CDs for 11.99..)

>-- 
>Mike

Luther
From: biow@cs.umd.edu (chris biow)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Patent Question
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:53:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <55340@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> warble@vmdb.vet.purdue.edu (Alan Warble) writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.192507.475@riacs.edu> dschlot@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Dave Schlotthauer) writes:
>>Does anyone know if an idea can be patented? 

>If the idea is just an idea and not an idea about a specific
>thing (like a new machine) then write it down and take out
>a copyright on it.

Now the text that you have written is copyrighted. (You don't even
need to "take out" a copyright--you generally have one as soon as
you write the text.) Whoopee!

No one can reproduce your exact text without your permission. But they
can paraphrase it, and use the idea as much as they want, without anyone's
permission.

In general, ideas are not protectable. Only a very narrow category can 
be protected as patents or trade secrets.

Besides, I thought of Usenet in 1967. It's my idea, and everyone who 
uses it should be sending me lots of money. Right?
 

Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
From: ccarpent@dpcs_gt1.ess.harris.com (Craig Carpenter)
Subject: Re: Freeware, Shareware, etc...
To: T104244@r3vm.dsd.trw.com
Organization: Advanced Technology Department, Harris Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:41:14 GMT


--
For shareware, it is probably best to contact the maker. In general the
the rules say that you must only charge costs for reproduction. That's
why you see fifty companies selling diskettes for $3-$4 a shot.
For the real legalities, you need to check the copyright notices and other
such items that are included with the software you want to do this with.

============================================================================= 
                                                 
Craig Carpenter                                   HARRIS CORPORATION
E-Mail: ccarpent@dw3f.ess.harris.com 	  IIIIIIIII    SSSSSSSS   DDDDDDD
Phone : (407)984-6444                         I        S          D      D
Fax   : (407)984-6327                         I        SSSSSSS    D      D
                                              I               S   D      D
                                          IIIIIIIII    SSSSSSS    DDDDDDD

"But, why ??" -- asked by every child in America under 4 years  of age
============================================================================

Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs,alt.business.multi-level
From: biow@cs.umd.edu (chris biow)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Compact Disc Wholesalers
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:08:40 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Jul28.215204.24547@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ematias@dgp.toronto.edu (Edgar Matias) writes:

>I don't know if what I'm about to say has been raised in this 
>discussion yet, but you all be pleased <sarcasm> to hear that CD's
>cost less to manufacture than cassettes, yet they sell for more.

I guess the economic analysis of this is that the CDs are a more
valuable product (to the customers) than the tapes. Then, so long
as they are not a commodity product, they would be expected to sell
for more than tapes.

But I would expect to see a category of second tier record companies
selling a (percieved to be) lower quality product for much less.
Yet I can't say that I've seen that.

Anybody got a good explanation for why we haven't. If not, there might
be a great niche here for new record companies. Certainly there are
dozens of pop bands that, rounded out with studio musicians, are every
bit as good as the product sold by the big labels. And such no-name
bands and studio musicians are dirt cheap. Now you just have to 
convince the record stores and their customers that your bands are
really at least half as good as the ones on name CDs.

The British rave musicians seem to have accomplished this, selling 
"generic" tapes.

Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: ILLEGAL TO OPERATE MULTI-LEVEL WITH PURE MONEY TRANSACTIONS??
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:01:55 GMT

In article 26509@research.nj.nec.com, shm@phoenix.syl.nj.nec.com (Shailendra Majmundar) writes:
>Is it illegal to form a pyramid system without selling a product? What I
>mean is that a system may be formed by which the people at the bottom
>of the pyramid would contribute x amount with an incentive to go up
>the ladder while the money be distributed in the pyramid top down? It
>would be similar to what Amway does, excepting that here there would be
>no selling of products, simply PURE MONEY GAMES.
>
>Note that this would not be gambling or game of chance. Statistical 
>formula can tell exactly how much a guy would make if the pyramid runs
>okey. 

Yes it is illegal.  There are laws which explicitly prohibit such scams.  

The basic problem is that you must fraudulently mis-represent the potential 
benefits of any such scheme.  Especially in the later stages of any plan,
the largest portion of the money is distributed to the people at the top, 
with the possible benefit to those at the bottem being miniscule.  Since 
the entire program is to convince new folks that they can get on the gravy
train even if it left long time ago, you _must_ mis-represent the possiblity
of attracting even even more people so that you can sucker (er, enroll) the
person you are talking to.  (Incidentally, "later stages" comes very
soon in these schemes.)


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: mbeck@vtssi.vt.edu
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Neat idea forsale!
Date: 28 Jul 1992 12:41:52 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.89.16.47

In article <1992Jul28.001531.29699@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG
(Lawrence C. Foard) writes:

>For $10-$20 it would be possible to make a board that would attach
>to a workstation or PC and allow a continously updated spectrum
>to be displayed on the screen of frequencies all the way from 
>cycles per hour up a good way into the microwave (giga hz) range.
>For obvious reasons I can't give any more details, but I have 
>numerically simulated the system and am fairly confident that
>its feasable. 

Um, I consider myself quite knowledgeable in computers and well enough rounded
in the other sciences, but what are you trying to do? No, I'm not out for you
details, but what would this be good for? I mean is there a consumer use?

									_Mike_
--------
Michael Beck       
Please email MBECK@VTSSI.VT.EDU only after FRIDAY
Phone: (617)873-2605  or  873-2383
       Office  2/247      Lab 2/273
From: mbeck@vtssi.vt.edu
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Re: Anyone need a SECOND INCOME???
Date: 30 Jul 1992 14:26:43 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.89.16.47

In article <158c3pINN51n@agate.berkeley.edu> abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Anthony Bulloch) writes:

>2. It would have been courteous to give at least a token
>acknowledgement of the intelligence and professionalism of
>the correspondents in this group and mention the nature of
>your business, even if you were not in a position to state
>the company name outright.

I completely agree. Why can't these people ever just say what they are
selling/offering/doing. Every single one of them gives you an excursion on the
history of business, multi-level marketing and the universe &-).

--------
Michael Beck       
Please email MBECK@VTSSI.VT.EDU only after FRIDAY
Phone: (617)873-2605  or  873-2383, Fax (617)873-4315
           (804)384-0523  Fax (804)384-5388  after FRIDAY

Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
From: dtschett@scott.skidmore.edu (donna tschetter)
Subject: Re: Accepting Credit Cards Without a store front
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:54:31 GMT

Bridal Shoppe for sale Saratoga Springs, NY

Owner overwhelmed and needs a break

(518-885-5144)  Serious inquiries only.

Martha Stevens (owner)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
From: burgoyne@highlite.uucp (J. Robert Burgoyne)
Subject: Re: Taking Credit Cards w/o a Store Front
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:29:59 GMT

eric@tfs.com (Eric Smith) writes:
: 
: To the extent that fraud makes it difficult to get a merchant account,
: there is an opportunity for a group of entrepreneurs to solve this
: problem.  Establish a credit card processing company that specializes
: in fraud-prone markets such as direct mail.  

Nice try. One of the things you sign when you finally get a merchant 
account is that you will never ever process someone else's charges.

As I recall, the penalty was instant termination of your merchant account.

I guess if you had several million dollars, you could become your own
merchant services company and deal directly with VISA/MC, but the
entrance requirements are undoubtedly steep.

Robert
From: zeta@yngbld.gwinnett.com (Gregory Youngblood)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Accepting Credit Cards Without a store front
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:11:57 GMT
Organization: TCS Consulting Services, Peachtree City, GA


Hi, my name is Greg Youngblood, and right now I'm away from my news system 
so I am unable to get any news, so please reply by email to 
zeta@yngbld.gwinnett.com.  Thanks so much in advance.

I'm looking for information on being able to accept Master/Visa and 
possibly AmEx in a mobile business environment (run out of a van/truck etc).

There is no store front, and there is mostly no mail order, though it is 
conceivbale there would be some mail ordered items from time to time.  The 
problem is the banks around here wanted us to get a machine that calls in 
every purchase and prints the receipt right then...only we won't be able to 
do that because we'll be in a car, and a cellular connection wouldn't be 
effective.  Also there would be trade shows where it would be nice to be 
able to accept the credit cards there as well.

Does anyone know of banks or other places that have reasonable rates and 
would allow us to take Master/Visa?  Also, from what I understand, AmEx will 
let you take their card without a store front under certain conditions.  
Also they want 10 dollars a month minimum, even if there are no charges that 
month, and 4-5 % gross charges AND .25 per slip written.  Is that accurate?  
Are there any ways to get discounts on this?  

Thanks again in advance for any help anyone can provide.

Greg

__________________________________________________________________________
!  Gregory S. Youngblood   !   The opinions expressed above are my own   !
!  TCS Consulting Services !   and does not mean I'm right or that anyone!
!__________________________!   else agrees with me.                      !
!  42... The only answer.  !_____________________________________________!
!________________________________________________________________________!
From: Grant.Cunningham@p55.f54.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Grant Cunningham)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Compact Disc Wholesalers
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:05:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712492754.F00002

Edgar Matias wrote about "Compact Disc Wholesalers".
Here's what GRANT CUNNINGHAM thinks:

 EM> I don't know if what I'm about to say has been raised in this
 EM> discussion yet, but you all be pleased <sarcasm> to hear that CD's
 EM> cost less to manufacture than cassettes, yet they sell for more.

So what?  The price of something (it's value to the purchaser) doesn't, AND
SHOULDN'T, be tied to what it costs to produce the item.  CDs sell for more
because *they're worth more*, period.  I hate the implication that somehow
business is "evil" because they sell things for more than they pay.

-=[ Grant ]=-

Fight-O-Net:  1:105/54.55
Eunuchs: UUCP  ...!{reed, m2xenix}!glacier!busker!54.55!Grant.Cunningham
         INTERNET  Grant.Cunningham@p55.f54.n105.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: schin@pub2.bu.edu (neil schier)
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs
Subject: Who is at BU
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:19:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: bu.91832
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: schin@pub2.bu.edu

Hello

About a month ago, a poll was taken as to who were the best known academic
consultants in the computer field. One of them was attached to Boston
U. Does anyone remember who it was?

Regards
Neil Schier
Newsgroups: misc.entrepreneurs