HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: archer@frmug.fr.mugnet.org (Vincent Archer)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:30:06 GMT
Organization: Minix User Group France

In article <1992Nov5.090756.3716@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>I apologize sincerely if anybody of all those honest, hard-working
>newsadmins out there who really have made an _informed decision_ not
>to carry certain groups feels insulted. My "adolescent whining" was
>directed at the people who - from ignorance or whatever - refuse to let
>their users read perfectly valid and serious newsgroups (and there are
>more serious groups than a.f.c on altnet) just because some idiots use
>altnet as their private playground. They *don't* have to carry all of
>altnet, or honor automatic newgroups, or whatever, just because they
>carry one or two alt groups.

(For the record, I have alt.* enabled on my site)

I wouldn't call your protest an "adolescent whining". However, you must
consider that the goal of a news administrator (unless he's PAID for
this job) is to spend the LEAST possible time on the news system.
Ideally, one should spend 15" seconds per day, just scanning the daily
report to see if everything's okay and then forget about it.

Unfortunately, if you want to carry anything from alt.*, it is not
possible. Since you cannot carry all, you have to keep watch on which
groups are ok and which are not. And this takes time. If you're an
harassed sysadmin, then you've got the best option: trash alt IN WHOLE,
and wait until those newsgroups that are "serious" gets promoted to
the big-7.

Many have been. To name three that I've been following, alt.bbs.waffle
alt.sys.sun and alt.mud have been promoted to the status of comp and
rec newsgroups. The fact that such jerks as Bruce feel that "This is alt,
and alt shall grow, and shall never shrink" IS an argument against
spending ANY time at all to deal with alt.*

You're a really big site? Then carry all/all (yech, not another flame war)
and don't bother looking at alt. You're a smaller site (and there are
MORE small sites than large ones out there)? Then drop alt and be
happy. Or you spend hours a week filtering controls from there.
-- 
	Vincent Archer			Email:	archer@frmug.fr.mugnet.org
Monday is an awful way to spend one seventh of your life.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 04:32:55 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:

>According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>>SO what we are seeing here is the class struggle of the admin vs the user.
>No, I really think it is the friction ("class struggle"? no way)
>between those who care to learn and those who do not care to learn.

Not really. 

>You didn't go back far enough in your analysis, Dave.  You forgot a
>vital fact:  Usenet admins are self-selected.  For the most part, they
>either pay for their own system, or they volunteer to run Usenet at
>their places of work.  Why?  Because Usenet interests them.  As a
>natural consequence, they want to learn how it works.

Ah...but that doesn't mean that the average user doesn't want to know
how to prevent his favorite group from disappearing. In fact, the
average user doesn't even know that it CAN disappear for good based
on some process they are not even aware of. 

It *might* mean that the average user doesn't care about groups not
related to his or her interests. 

Again, there are two classes of intent and two classes of ignorance.
Assuming zero ignorance there are:

   -Those who care
   -Those who do not

Assuming infinite care there are:

   -Those who know
   -Those who do not.

So there are four distinct classes of people:

             Care      Don't Care
============================================
Know       |  A           C
Don't Know |  B           D 

Class A are most of us in news.groups. 

Class B are those who haven't run across anything about group creation
in their travels on usenet.

Class C are those who are sick of the entire thing and don't participate.

Class D are those who do not yet know that they are sick of the whole thing.

It is those in class B that I am trying to get people to understand
about. They exist. Usually they move to class A after some brouhaha like
the music reorg. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

 Do you think you love your Creator? Love your fellow creature first.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:49:17 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>Almost NOBODY reads n.a.n even though I post several places "READ THE
>USENET DOCUMENTATION" which contains copies of all the standard usenet
>docs (including the guidelines). 

I'm glad for your users' sake that you've gone to that much trouble to
educate them.  It's too bad they haven't taken advantage of your help.

>So much for ignorance. 

????

You've amply proved the point that people who choose to remain
ignorant will struggle valiantly to avoid knowing what they don't want
to know, despite heroic efforts to educate them.  So why do you want
to protect them from the effects of that choice?

>IF this were to go through, they'd think it disappeared.

Not if you keep the newsgroup around locally, with a local article
having a clear subject line [:-)] like "READ REC.MUSIC.MAKERS.SYNTH".
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
From: graeme@abekrd.co.uk (Graeme Griffiths)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:01:28 GMT
Organization: Abekas Video Systems, Reading, UK.

In <1992Nov8.221114.5147@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <96646@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
>Kulawiec) writes:

>I *do* agree that all affected groups should have been notified in a clear  
>manner.

>> At this point, the "Subject" line is sitting at around 158 characters,
>> and that's without mentioning the rec.music.makers.percussion proposal,
>> which, as I said above, is probably the most significant proposal of  
>all.
>> 

>Send seperate articles with different subject lines to the affected group.  
>Even a small message which is a pointer to the one with your exiting  
>subject line would have been a help.

>> 
>I don't doubt for a moment that you had the best of intentions. I also  
>agree that the existing subject line is logically correct even if it  
>doesn't tell the whole story. I just think there should have been a better  
>attempt to make the impact clear and the affected existing groups aware of  
>it.


>> I should also point out that I received no correspondence from anyone
>> objecting to the "Subject" line while the vote was taking place
>> 

>That's because most people affected didn't know it was taking place.  
>(Circular argument).

[I've doctored the above argument to include only the points I want to
 address]

	I don't see a problem here. Why, Gordon, did "most of the affected
people" not know about the discussion ? From the riginal CFD header we see:

Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.music.misc,
	rec.music.makers,alt.guitar,alt.guitar.bass,alt.guitar.tab

	So all those groups, and I think we have to agree that these are the
"affected people" should have seen a CFD in their respective groups. If
they chose to ignore this then fine, if they didn't understand what CFD
means then why don't they read the news.newusers.questions group a little
more clearly.
	Anyway I still don't see anybody complaining about the vote on these
grounds, Rich have you had any complaints _yet_ ?
	Which means we're arguing about the future of reorganisation of
groups.... fairy nuff.

	Does anyone actually think we need a CFD in news.groups and a load
of idiot-proof pointers to it in the affected groups? Surely a
cross-posted CFD should do the job.

	Ah well just my opinions I suppose.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|From: Graeme Griffiths             | "Well your jokes ain't funny,          |
|Abekas Video Systems,12 Portman Rd,|    and there's nothing you say,        |
|Reading,Berks,ENGLAND.             |      that I want to hear....."         |
|(0734)585421 x2247                 |                     Skid Row           |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sergeb@cco.caltech.edu (Serge J. Belongie)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.soft-sys.matlab
Date: 14 Nov 1992 03:02:20 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

A news group for Matlab is an excellent idea.  I would like to
see it started up in the near future.  My personal interest
would be in the use of Matlab for signal processing.

			  --Serge Belongie
				 Caltech
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Jeffrey Johnson)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.frp.campaign
Followup-To: news.groups
Summary: *WHY?!?!?!*
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
Organization: F.S.U. Dept of Physics
Date:  8 NOV 92 20:29:41    

In article <1djhcmINNhs3@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes...
>Travis writes:
>>I think that we don't really need this as a place to run campaigns in, 
>>However the idea of a forum in which to discuss ideas relating to campaign 
>>games and issues relating to campaigns is a good idea.
> 
>Congratulations.  You've just hit on the *exact* job of rec.games.frp
>{misc | dnd} depending on whether you are playing xD&D or not.  Why 
>not there?

No.  This is not the job of rec.games.frp.misc/dnd.  Their job currently
INCLUDES this, but it is not their sole purpose.  Most of the traffic I
have seen on these two groups is rule-oriented rather than campaign-oriented.
If you will re-read my original post, you will find that I specified that 
such a forum should be for NON-RULES-SPECIFIC material about campaigning.

> 
>The only reason I can think of is that it is (is someone's opinion)
>too crowded.  *I* don't find it too crowded, and can find the stuff
>I want fine (provided people put descriptive subjects out there).
> 
>Crossposted to news.groups, and followups to news.groups.  If you say
>the group is getting too crowded, you should post this stuff where it
>belongs.
> 

I don't think it's too crowded.  I merely wished to contribute to the 
discussion.  Personally, I am ambivalent towards the idea of rec.games.
frp.campaign as a new group.  Should it come into existence, I will definitely
subscribe, but I don't think we NEED it.
	The prime purpose of my posting was to say that I didn't think that
a group was needed to run campaigns in (people can do that over email) and
that we didn't need another place to put campaign stories either (personally,
I've found that most of the campaign stories are so amateurish that I can't 
stand to read them.)

Travis
picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Stuff & Nonsense Division
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:51:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.053350.4155@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>
>>No. Material posted to rec.music.synth has something to do with
>>rec.music.synth. (Sometimes not, but generally it does.) 
>
>I don't believe that you (masquerading as an aware usenetter) are 
>going to argue that all posts have relavence to the group that
>they are found in.

Obviously, he didn't.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: CFV: comp.archives.msdos.announce and comp.archives.msdos.d
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:45:56 GMT
Organization: Beckman Instruments, Inc.


      Subject:  Returned mail: User unknown
 
    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
 While talking to TACOM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL:
 >>> RCPT To:<vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil>
 <<< 550 <vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil>... User unknown
 550 vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil... User unknown
 
    ----- Unsent message follows -----
 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 12:34:30 -0800
 Message-Id: <9211122034.AA04294@dsg4.dse.beckman.com>
 To: vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil
 Subject: Re: CFV: comp.archives.msdos.announce and comp.archives.msdos.d
 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives,  comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted,comp.os.msdos.apps,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
 References: <BxIos3.4po@uunet.uu.net>
 From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
 Organization: Beckman Instruments, Inc.

???? 

--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
My interaction with our news system is unstable; please mail anything important.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:48:02 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <2AFE689F.549E@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> There are two classes.  Those who care enough to participate, and those
>> who wait until things have already happened and then whine.  But there
>> is no "class system", because these classes are _self_selecting_ and
>> _open_to_all_.
>
>They aren't "self selecting" at all.

Yes they are, since one's membership depends entirely on one's actions.

>They are "open" to people that have a certain amount of "net experience".

Patently false.  It (the "caring" group) is open to anyone who knows
how how to participate, and that knowledge is readily available to
even the greenest newbie if he will but read news.announce.newusers.

>This argument of people not caring enough and waiting is old and
>obstructive.

You got that right.  It obstructs your attempt to blame the apathy of
those who don't care on those of us who do.  It won't fly.

>Please move on.

What a joke.  Move on, yourself.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:46:01 GMT

In article <r6=q39a@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)  
writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >> A CFV is *never* "junk mail".
> >
> > You think all votes for all groups on the net are to be interested in?
> > How much time DO you have on your hands? 
> 
> Enough time to read every RFD or CFV that's crossposted into a
> newsgroup I  have an interest in.

That wasn't the question.

> Just out of curiosity, Gordon, what groups do you
> read that are constantly plagued with these bogus RFDs and CFVs you're
> complaining about?
> 

It's not bogus RFDs and CFVs I'm talking about - it's all the messages  
that one can run into that contain RFD and CFV in the subject line. It's  
easy to miss a significant one as there are so many being posted,  
particularly if you scan news.groups which I used to. It would help (one  
more time) if the subject line were more descriptive.

Surely you understand what I'm getting at here and are simply trying to  
discredit my opinion.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD Alternative Medicine - need definition
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:24:16 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <Bx3x2p.4LE@ssr.com> sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne) writes:
>Well, the participants on usenet will vote for the group, and it will
>pass or not. But just out of curiosity: Where are discussions on
>alternative cancer therapies going to take place? What about holistic
>dentistry? From what Kaminski has said, discussions on these
>alternative therapies won't be welcome in misc.health.alternative.
>Are these going to be placed in sci.med? No?

Nope.  Your previous "holistic dentristy" post was answered with
"go ahead, it's welcome".  And the alt cancer therapies he allowed
after he thought about it for a few msgs.
 
>I *am* concerned that misc.health.alternative will be a forum for
>quacks, and I believe that people who will be voting for or against
>the group should consider this, and consider the effects that an
>uncritical forum (which this will be) could have on a seriously ill
>individual.

There is perhaps a point to be concerned about here, but don't take
it as a given that this will be a "quacks-only" category.  As far as
your comment "which this will be", noone has ever advocated letting
anyone get away with any ridiculous claim they wish to make.  The 
whole point IS to have critical discussion of these things, as opposed
to the more simplistic "thats ridiculous, let's move on" approach that
you seem more comfortable with.

>But I also don't see the need for a new newsgroup,especially one that is
>misc.health.alternative.except.for.this.and.that.and.the.other.therapy. 

But it isn't. :)

>As has been pointed out before, there are probably too many groups on
>usenet as it is.

There are also too many people on line -- should we stop issuing
accounts?		:)


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh I give my life so lightly		|
to my gentle lady.			|	-Richard Hartman	
Giving freely, and completely,		|	hartman@uLogic.COM
for my lady.				|
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: geneology help
From: dwood@cstp.umkc.edu
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 16:04:08 GMT
Organization: UM - Kansas City, Computer Science

  I was wondering if anyone had info of a data base that can help with
researching geneology. I may have heard about on in Salt Lake city but I am not 
sure. Any help would be great. Thanks David Wood
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 22:13:41 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:

>Or are we to believe that Dave Hayes would remain silent while there was
>a problem?

Have we seen any evidence to the contrary?

-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes will not quit
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 18:55:15 GMT

In article <141398@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> gary_preckshot@lccmail.ocf.llnl.gov (gary preckshot) writes:
[ stuff deleted ]
>>Actually, there have been a number of controversies before this one; this
>>is only the latest.
>
>A person with a modicum of wit would conclude there are some problems.  Of
>course, you might think that this is "the best of all possible worlds."
>The original never learnt any different through tribulations that would try
>a modern-day Bosnian.  Come to think of it, they were having trouble in
>Sarajevo on June 28, 1914 and they still haven't learnt.  I guess that means
>that in all fairness I can't compare you to Serbs and Croates for another
>78 years.
>
I've been reading this Daye Hayes thread with some curiosity, partially
because I have several work acquaintences names Dave Hayes, and at first, 
thought people might be alluding to one of them, enough on that - 
I was wonder, Mr. Preckshot, are you British?? - the way you spell
learned (learnt) is, of course the British form (both past and past part)
of learn - anyway, if you are, I can then understand where a great amount
of your thinking comes from

-- 
________________       __        ________________   "They that can give up
\_________      \     /_ \      /      _________/  essential liberty to 
 \_________      \_____/  \____/      _________/  obtain temporary safety
  \___________________      __________________/  deserve neither liberty 
                     /______\                   nor safety."  
ALL disclaimers apply ....                           --Benjamin Franklin
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: soc.religion.ahmadiyya
Date: 9 Nov 1992 16:02:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) says:

>I am posting this article becausing I believe that it has a bearing 
>on the need to have our own newsgroup named soc.religion.ahmadiyya. It 
                                                      ^^^^^^^
>seems to me that many people are still not convinced that there is actually
>a need to set up a new group under this name, maderated by Ahmadi Muslims.

Nadeem,

The main objection is not to the EXISTENCE
 of this group.  The objection is that other
 muslims do not want you to use the word ISLAM
 in the name.  

Please save yourself (and the rest of us) some 
 trouble and call it soc.religion.ahmadiyya
-- 
Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:52:29 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee):
>>If the people who support your position don't step out into the light
>>and speak their piece, their opinions will not be heard.
>
>And of course people who do speak get flamed into oblivion.

If you can't take the heat, etc.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
From: mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:42:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Hewlett Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK