From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:26:03 GMT

kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>Your statement never stood.  You're trying to blame atheism for the
>>fall of the USSR.  The Jews, Christians, and Muslims who live/lived
>>there would be surprised.

>Greg, I pointed out two nations, noted a characteristic of each, and noted
>that one exists while the other one does not.  I laid no blame anywhere.

Specifically, you said:
   And it was designed in a country founded upon a belief in God.  The 
   country founded upon atheism and a belief in man no longer exists.

Your connection of the two facts implies a placing of the blame on
atheism for the downfall of the USSR.  If you intend to sidestep and
deny this after-the-fact, then you're definitely politician material.
Then again, you've made several statments that didn't actually say
anything, so perhaps this case isn't so unique.

>I certainly have no quarrel with your interpretation that atheism was
>to blame, but you might want to provide a more thorough study of 
>precisely why atheism brought about the downfall of the USSR, if you
>wish to get published with that thesis.

I in _no_ way implied this.  In fact, atheism had nothing to do with
the downfall of the USSR.  If it had, the U.S. would have gone first.

>>>Pardon me, but did I say "Christian foundation"?  I did not.  I said
>>>"belief in God".  That is correct.  My original statement stands.

>>Your statement does _not_ stand.  You're simply repeating yourself on
>>this subject without providing evidence.  That doesn't make it true.

>Read the Declaration of Independence.  Find three references to a Supreme
>Being.  Extra Credit: read the Articles of Confederation, and find one.

I addressed this in another post.  Your statement is _still_ baseless.
When are you going to start supplying some _evidence_?

>>Check it out for yourself.  And please, feel free to post proof
>>positive that these two men were Christians.  I don't think you have
>>it, not do I think you can produce it.

>I did not say they were Christians, Greg.  One can believe in a Supreme
>Being and be a Founding Father without being Christian.  Many were.

That still doesn't prove that the country was founded on a "belief in
God".  The values, views, and opinions of the founding fathers who
believed in a "Supreme Being" conflicted quite a bit.  There were very
few common religious opinions among them.

You still haven't provided any evidence here.  Let's see some examples
of uniquely Judeo-Christian values that form the foundation of this
country.  You're going to have a hard time finding them, I assure you.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
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