From: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:55:54 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.16f by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In <TODD.92Dec18120557@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@ai07.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec16.211950.9531@advtech.uswest.com> steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes:
>>
>>You're ignoring the nine months that can change a woman's life.
>>I.e., screw up career, screw up health, screw up plans...
>
>So you put an individual's right to *exist* over some shitty career or plans.

*Over*?  Try again...

>Love your priorities there.

It rather depends on the individual in question, doesn't it?  If the individual
is a mollusk, then I put its right to exist below my right to enjoy a good
meal.  If the individual is a fetus, then its "rights" (if any) are certainly
below the rights of a person.

>(WRT health, I already clarified
>that I do not oppose abortion when a woman's health is in danger -
>when it isn't, all she risks is stretch marks - it's vanity).

Very wrong - see below.

>The flimsyness of your arguements almost speak for themselves.

Your ignorance appears to be boundless.
=======================================
%From: jbrindle@nwnexus.WA.COM (Jennifer Brindle)
%Newsgroups: talk.abortion
%Subject: Re: We Won't Go Back/April 5th/March for Abortion Rights
%Message-ID: <1992Apr1.000621.3010@nwnexus.WA.COM>
%Date: 1 Apr 92 00:06:21 GMT
%Distribution: usa
%Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
%
%Even healthy women are harmed to some degree by a pregnancy.
%A woman does not return to her pre-pregnant state exactly.  I've been
%through a pregnancy, have you?
%
%I can no longer breathe freely thanks to my first pregnancy.
%My long-term health has been dramatically reduced by being pregnant.
%Whatever statistical reductions for cancer, etc do not outweigh, IMO,
%the daily agony I go through just to breathe.  My condition is not
%uncommon; my ear, nose, and throat specialist says that such complaints
%are COMMON after a pregnancy.  I awaken every morning retching to clear
%my sinus, throat, and nose.  You call that healthy?
%
%>Tell it to all the women who have lived with gestational diabetes,
%>or died of toxemia.  Tell it to all the women who have suffered
%>permanent connective tissue damage, or nutritional deficiencies
%>due to poor diet during pregnancy.
%
%You got it Muriel.
%
%>Osteoporosis is less likely
%>for mothers only if they get adequate calcium during pregnancy.
%>Otherwise the fetus takes its supply from her bones and teeth.
%
%Exactly.  In fact, the fetus TAKES WHATEVER IT NEEDS from the woman,
%regardless if she can spare it.  She's the one who suffers, not
%the fetus.
%
%Oh, and "drink more milk" isn't the answer.  My OB has told me to
%drink the usual amount of milk, or less, because of my personal
%problems.  I'm taking calcium suppliments instead.
%
%>Finally, she has a 22 times greater chance of dying from carrying
%>the fetus to term than she has from a first-tri abortion.
%
%Exactly.
%
%>BTW,
%>this is a very incomplete list of problems; I'm sure I could go
%>on if it weren't Friday afternoon...
%
%Well, it's Monday morning now and here are a few more:
%
%While _most_ problems encountered by a woman when pregnant disappear after
%the birth, some do remain, and the long-term effects of these problems
%are still present.  For instance, did you know that once a woman has
%contracted gestational diabetes, the chances of her spontaneously aborting
%or a stillbirth are much greater?  That happened to a friend of mine in
%Atlanta:  she had GD during her first pregnancy; miscarried in her 5th month
%for her second; and only after continuous bed rest delivered her third
%pregnancy to term.
%
%And there are some non-medical problems associated with pregnancy/children:
%Did you know that the presense of your first child can seriously undermine
%your marriage?  Many marriages with no serious problems have disintegrated
%because of the extra strain of that third person around?  Your relation
%will change, and you must make an extra effort to maintain its health.
%If you don't, chances are you will be heading for divorce court.  I used
%to wonder how a couple could split up after having a baby, now I know.
%
%In conclusion, there are pros and cons of both abortion and giving birth.
%Each woman can only make that decision herself, since it directly affects
%(effects?) her health, life, and relationship.  Hopefully, she won't make
%either decision without the assistance and cooperation of her mate, but
%in the end, it is her decision ALONE.  With the personal stakes so high,
%no one else is qualified to make that decision for her.
%
%
%Jennifer
=======================================
#From: judy@electra.la.locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
#Newsgroups: talk.abortion
#Subject: Re: A case for unborn babies
#Message-ID: <6001@oolong.la.locus.com>
#Date: 23 Mar 90 20:28:48 GMT
#
#In article <39236@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>
#sl197009@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chima Echeruo) writes:
#
#>6) An newborn infant is completely helpless and absolutely dependent on it's
#>   mother or any other caretaker. The infant requires constant care by it's
#>   parents while the fetus does not make claims on it's mother.
#>
#
#Hee Hee Hee... let me guess, you've never been pregnant and you have
#never cared for a newborn.
#
#Not that this is terribly relevant to your original posting, but I
#just cannot help myself.
#
#1) Newborns are not completely helpless.  They can bat things away
#from their faces.  They can communicate to others around them.  They
#can root for the breast to obtain food.  And they can survive a
#surprisingly long time in garbage cans (there are a number who have
#been found up to 24 hours after birth which have been thrown away by
#their parents).  Now, they are dependent on having someone provide
#them with food and sustenance.  But I'll take caring for a one day old
#baby over a 39 1/2 week old fetus any day of the week.
#
#2) The fetus ABSOLUTELY makes claims on it's mother.  During the first
#3 months of development, the change in hormones causes the mother's
#breasts to swell (painfully, I might add).  It causes, over 50% of the
#time, severe nausea and vomiting.  It causes fatigue beyond belief.
#(I personally found that less than 20 hours sleep a day was
#insufficient).
#
#THe fetus depletes the mother of iron, calcium, protein, vitamins, and
#minerals.  In the event the mother does not have enough of any of
#these, the fetus gets first dubs and the mother's health is at risk.
#
#During the first trimester, the fetus is also growing low within the
#mother's abdoment causing the mother to frequent the bathroom at least
#every hour, if not more so.  This is very disruptive to the mother's
#sleep.  This cycle begins again at about 8 1/2 months when the fetus'
#head drops back down into the abdomen.  Only then the mother cannot
#get out of bed by herself and so this also disrupts the father's
#sleep.
#
#Throughout the pregnancy the hormones cause significant changes to the
#mothers emotional stability, making her weepy, irrational, and often
#quite crazed.
#
#As the fetus grows, the mothers body changes for birth.  These changes
#include the loosening of all ligaments within the body making the
#mother more prone to fall and more prone to injury during a fall.
#
#The fetus requires the mother's heart to pump 50% more blood and for
#the mother's lungs to take in 50% more oxygen.  The hormonal changes
#of pregnancy effect the production of insulin and many women get
#gestational diabetes which will permanently affect the woman's ability
#to keep her blood sugar stable.  A woman's blood pressure increases
#and her body retains large amounts of water which can lead to a
#syndrom called eclampsia.  THe result of eclampsia is coma and death.
#
#The growth of the fetus causes a woman's center of balance to be
#altered often causing injury to the lower back.  The mother's internal
#organs are compressed, this includes the heart, liver, lungs, and
#digestive tract.  The compression of the digestive tract causes
#constipation which, in turn, causes hemmeroids.  The urinary tract is
#taxed by removing wastes from the additional 50% blood the woman is
#pumping.
#
#The skin covering the abdomen is stretched and often tears painfully
#in what are commonly called "stretch marks".  These are permanent and
#while they no longer are painful after birth, they represent permanent
#disfigurement.
#
#The breasts begin to secrete colostrum in about the 8th to 9th month
#of pregnancy.  They are usually two to three times as large as normal
#when the milk comes in.  THe ligaments supporting the breast are
#stretched and the breast will never recover its original shape.
#
#During labor, women can have strokes, heart attacks, and seizures
#brought on by the stress caused to the body.  If the placenta is
#placed incorrectly within the uterus, a condition called placenta
#previa can occur and the woman can bleed to death.  During delivery,
#tears in the vaginal wall can be deep enough to enter the anus causing
#infection of the vagina from fecal bacteria.
#
#In the event that the baby is unable to come through the birth canal,
#the woman must undergo major abdominal surgery.  This involves
#permanent scarring, risk from anasthesia, risk of major infection, and
#risk from blood loss.
#
#Now I'm sure I missed something, but I hope I have dispelled the myth
#that pregnancy is benign and doesn't cost the woman anything.  It has
#a very real detriment to the woman's health and ability to function
#and poses a very real risk to the woman's life.
#
#Please continue with the rest of your argument....
#
#Judy
=======================================
$Newsgroups: talk.abortion
$Path: yktnews!admin!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu
$From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
$Subject: Some effects of Pregnancy
$Message-ID: <1992Aug17.194346.2895@menudo.uh.edu>
$Sender: usenet@menudo.uh.edu (USENET News System)
$Nntp-Posting-Host: uhad1.admin.uh.edu
$Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
$Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:43:46 GMT
$X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20
$Lines: 137
$
$
$  Well, as promised (but a little late, sorry) here's what I found on the
$effects of pregnancy.  It is mostly physical.  The primary source is *Under-
$standing Pregnancy and Childbirth* by Sheldon Cherry, M.D., copyright 1973,
$revised editions 1983 and 1992.  My own comments will be enclosed in brackets,
$[like so].  Pardon the occasional misspelling.  Let us begin:
$
$  Weight: prompted by hormonal secretions [like many of the changes] the meta-
$     bolism of the body changes to increase efficiency in obtaining nutri-
$     tion from food, with having to "eat for two".  This can result in a
$     slight acqusition of body fat.  The average weight gain is 24.5 pounds,
$     most of which is the fetus and supporting systems.  10 to 20 pounds
$     will be lost within 10 days of delivery.  Proper diet and exercise will
$     return the woman to normal weight within 2 months.  Weight gains above
$     35 pounds are not good and can result in permenant obesity.  An in-
$     crease of about 300-500 calories depending upon exercise and intention
$     to nurse is reccomended.
$
$  Fluid:  There is a general increase of about 3 lbs of body fluid.  Most of
$     this occurs near the end of gestation.  This will likely cause some
$     swelling of the face and fingers (but NOT legs and ankles, which is
$     caused by the pressure on the veins from the fetus, placenta, and
$     amniotic fluid).
$
$  Skeleton:  The increased presence of the uterus generally results in the
$     throwing back of the head and shoulders, exaggerating the curve of
$     the back.  This can result in backache or muscle strains.  Old theory
$     held that the mother's teeth decalcify to provide calcium and phosphor-
$     ous for the fetus, but this now known to be invalid (inflammation of
$     the gums IS common, however). [It would seem that some posters still
$     hold to this belief, that the fetus drains calcium from the the
$     mother's bones.  This apparently is incorrect.  Sheldon does not men-
$     tion any such concerns.  However, since the fetus does use calcium,
$     it IS neccessary to increase its intake, so there is sufficient for
$     both.  It seems that perhaps this belief developed out of insufficient
$     calcium intakes in the past, with weaker bones/teeth as the result.
$     This last is just my guess]
$
$  Skin:  The nipple areas may darken, as well as warts, moles or scars.  A line
$     may appear running from the navel to the pubic bone.  These areas fade
$     after delivery.  Another condition chlorasma, may vary from small-
$     yellow-brown spots to extensive dark-brown patches on the nose, cheeks,
$     and neck.  These may be unsightly, but also fade within a few weeks of
$     delivery.  Also, there may be red "spidery" patches on the face, neck,
$     chest, and arms.  These also disappear after delivery.
$       Stretch marks are also common, mostly on the stomach, but may also
$     appear on the breasts and thighs.  These appear as thin pink lines, but
$     may also become dense and white and brown and appear as loosley wrinkled
$     skin.  These are likely to remain after delivery as narrow ribbons of
$     silver-white.
$       Skin may also be more sensitive to UV light, and hair may thin.  Both
$     these conditions return to normal.
$
$  Vagina and vulva:  The veins enlarge enormously, and the vulva takes on a deep
$     port color.  Intercourse may be more difficult during this time because
$     of the enlarged veins.  Vaginal disharge may increase.  The vagina en-
$     larges and then shrinks back to its normal size following delivery.
$     Commonly (in the US) a small slit is made on the opening of the vagina
$     to facilitate the baby's exit and prevent tearing (an episiotomy).
$     This requires stitches, but heals faster, better, and less painfully
$     than a tear.  The muscle tone returns over an 8-week period.
$
$  Abdomen:  Naturally, the abdomen stretches a great deal.  The navel may pop
$     out.  A tight feeling may develop.  Regaining good muscle tone after
$     delivery is sometimes a problem.[Sheldon mentions no complications,
$     but I recall Muriel's complaint of difficulty breathing, I guess due
$     to damage to the diaphragm--anyone care to expand on this?]
$
$  Breasts:  The breasts grow a certain extent, beome softer, and have larger
$     veins which may be visible as bluish streaks.  The nipples are more
$     erect and fluids may ooze out rather early.  They may tingle and
$     throb, and even feel lumpy.  Proper support is very important to pre-
$     vent sagging.  Some loss of tone is probable, but may be lessened or
$     repaired via exercise.
$
$[The following is a less detailed list of things to expect during the
$ pregnancy]
$
$ Muscle cramps, dizzyness, gas, hemorrhoids, shortness of breath, backache,
$constipation, excessive urination, swollen ankles and varicose veins, fatigue,
$headaches, heartburn, nausea and vomiting, rhinitis (postnasal drip).  These
$all vary as to degree, and pass afterwards.
$
$  Physical activity gradually has to be curtailed.  Exactly how and when
$varies.[there is a section on exercise and diet]
$
$  The rate of c-section is about 25%.  This is riskier but not especially so
$[the doctor did not specify].  Having one does not preclude the possibility
$of a normal birth later on.  Up to 80% of women had a c-section may now be
$able to deliver normally, depending on several factors [I'm not going to
$list them now, although I will if there is interest].
$
$  Ectopic pregancies occur about 1% of the time.  The consequences can be
$very serious, from loss of the affected tube to death.  Modern techniques
$make it much easier to detect such pregnancies, and there are several ways to
$treat them.  Having had one, the risk of having another increases to as much
$as 10-15%.
$
$  Toxemia is less-well-understood condition of pregnancy, which appears to be
$far more dangerous to the baby than the mother [so the doctor indicates].  Most
$cases are mild, however.
$
$Considerable rest is usually the prescription.  1.2 deaths per 100,000 live
$births are caused by toxemia.
$
$  Depression and anxiety are common during and after.  75% have the "baby
$blues" which usually, go away within a few hours to two weeks.  Some may
$develop the more dangerous depression.[the doctor did not state %'s]
$
$*************************************
$end excerpts.
=======================================
@Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 22:53:03 EST
@From: Linda Birmingham <ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
@Message-ID: <92282.225303ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
@Newsgroups: talk.abortion
@Subject: Re: SAT worship

@[...] the following is the standard
@medical (Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary) definition and
@description of pregnancy:
@
@pregnancy (preg'nan-si)[L. pregnans].  The condition of carrying
@a developing embryo in the uterus.
@
@SYM AND SIGNS:  Amenorrhea, nausea and vomiting, inordinate
@appetite, pigmentation of the areola of the breast, the
@development of Montgomery's tubercles around the nipple, changes
@in the uterus (softening and progressive enlargement), vaginal
@discoloration, and frequent urination.
@  Positive signs are hearing and counting the fetal heartbeat,
@finding x-ray evidence of the fetal skeleton, and detection of
@movements of the fetus.  There are various biological tests fore
@pregnancy and these are 90 to 95% accurate.
@[deleted duration]
@PHYSICAL CHANGES:  *Uterus*: Changes shape, size, and
@consistency; lining undergoes changes; peritoneal covering
@enlarges; muscles mass increases enormously.
@  *Vaginal Canal*: Elongation caused by rising of uterus in
@pelvis,; mucosa thickens; secretion increased; increased
@vascularity and elasticity; cervix, vagina, and vulva becomes
@softer.
@  *Abdominal*: Growing distention and flattened navel; striae
@gravidarum.
@  *Breasts*: Enlarged and painful; skin thin and sensitive;
@nipples erectile and areola enlarged and darker; escape of
@colostrum; tingling sensation.
@  *Endocrine Glands*:  thyroid increase in size and activity;
@parathyroids enlarge and secretion increases; pituitary increases
@its activity; placenta produces hormones, affecting ovaries and
@corpus luteum.
@  *Circulatory System*:  Increased activity; increased blood
@volume; blood pressure should be normal; varicose veins common.
@  *Skeletal*: Pelvic joints soften; pelvic joints more movable;
@bones and teeth affected.
@  *Respiratory*:  Lungs impeded in late pregnancy; breathing
@deeper and more frequent.
@  *Digestive Track*:  Nausea and vomiting in early pregnancy;
@appetite affected; loss of weight in early pregnancy with slight
@anaemia; basal metabolism raised in later pregnancy; constipation
@frequent.
@  *Liver*:  Displaced in late pregnancy.
@  *Skin*:  Sudoriparous and sebaceous glands very active; deposit
@of brown pigment (mask of pregnancy); linea nigra.
@  *Weight*: Increased.
@  *Posture*: Changes as enlargement of abdomen advances;
@sacroiliac joints and symphysis pubis more movable; painful
@locomotion and backache; gait may be altered.
@  *Urinary Tract*:  Increased kidney activity; failures of
@kidneys produce nephritic toxemia; ureters, esp, right one,
@dilated; pressure on bladder; frequent urination in late
@pregnancy; bladder lifted into abdomen and pressure diminished.
@Bladder later pressed upon by presenting part; urinary output
@varies, presence of albumin abnormal.
@
@Taber's then lists the following common "DISORDERS OF" and their
@descriptions which I have omitted:
@Nausea and Vomiting
@Constipation and Flatulence
@Muscular Cramps
@Pressure Edema: a possible indicator of toxemia
@Headache
@Toothache
@Backache
@Dyspnea: pressure of uterus upward on transverse colon
@Vaginal Discharge
@Pruritus: severe itching, caused by skin stretching or possibly
@  toxic or nervous origins
@Heartburn
@Varicose Veins
@Haemorrhoids
@
@(With two exceptions, I suffered all of these)
@
@then the various types of pregnancies:
@p., abdominal: occurring in the abdomen cavity
@p., ampullar: occurring in the ampulla of the uterine tube (ectopic)
@p., bigeminal: twins in utero
@p., cervical: implantation in the cervical canal
@p., cornual: occurring in one of the horns of bicornuate uterus
@p., ectopic: see below
@p., extrauterine:  pregnancy out uterine cavity
@p., false: see phantom
@p., heterotropic: combined intrauterine and extrauterine pregnancies
@p., hydatid: a degenerative process that gives rise to multiple cysts
@p., interstitial: occurring in the uterine wall where the oviduct
@    is formed
@p., intraligamentary: occurring in the broad ligament
@p., mask of: pigmentation appearing on the face
@p., membranous: amniotic sac ruptures, fetus comes in contact
@    with uterine wall
@p., mesenteric: see tuboligamentary
@p., multiple
@p., ovarian: implantation of ovum in the ovary
@p., phantom: abdomen enlarges simulating pregnancy
@p., tuboabdominal: part of fetus in uterine wall part in
@    abdominal cavity
@p., tuboligamentary: occurring in uterine tube and extending into
@    broad ligament
@p., tuboovarian: fetus develops in both uterine tube and ovary.
@
@I could also provide Taber's very lengthy description of labour
@if anyone so desires.
@
@But don't let any of this dissuade you Mr. Nyikos from thinking
@that being pregnant and birthing is nothing but a romp in the
@park, you of course are free to perceive the world in whatever
@way you wish.  I however am more inclined to accept what I have
@read in medical journals and textbooks and my own experience,
@than your version of your wife's pregnancy as a norm.
@
@Linda
@--
@"I saw my doctor at the checkup six weeks after my baby was born.
@Full of male pride, he told me during my pelvic exam, "I did a
@beautiful job sewing you up.  You're as tight as a virgin; your
@husband should thank me".  The New Our Bodies, Ourselves
=======================================

"all she risks is stretch marks" - Hah!
--
Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9406 can.politics:10797