HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: More Books to Avoid (was: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:14:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


I don't mind Tom Gardner calling me a twit. Since I did my Ph.D. at
the University of London, I consider that particular English
pejorative positively affectionate.

However, he was referring to quoted material. I assume he really meant,
but was being careless, that the writer of the quotations was a twit.

It would be more useful if he posted quotations that asserted that
bacteria could not live in normal human colons. Then we'd be having
a discussion, instead of name calling, however affectionate.

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 04:56:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

Steve Dyer posts another ignorant, malicious attack on me based on
his inability to read.


In article <1992Sep15.010445.13500@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <55ynyfd.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>>Annette says that putrefaction comes from bacteria or yeast not normally
>>present in the stomach unless one is seriously ill.
>
>No, she doesn't say that.  Food does not "putrefy" in the stomach or gut.
>Period.

Sorry, Steve. She does say that. Here's the text:

" The neccessary enzymes for fermentation and putrefaction come
from bacteria or yeast, and unless you are very ill those critters will
*not* be present in your stomach."

Once more you have discredited yourself by using words like "moron"
when it is you who are off-base.

David
From: ah690549@mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Annette C. Hollmann)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:04:13 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx

In article <12SEP92.21451841@nerus.pfc.mit.edu> mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:
>In a previous article, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) wrote:
>> 
>>"Sugar and other carbohydrates do not require the copious flow of
>>hydrochloric acid as do proteins, but just enough to further cleave
>>the cellulose of the foods into an emulsion. Starches have an affinity
>>for pepsin, which is needed in large amounts for protein digestion.
>>When this pepsin is lacking due to the absorbing action of the
>>starches, the proteins are not proplerly split into peptones. As a
>>result, putrefaction takes place. Furthermore, the starches will
>>ferment, causing a souring of the stomach and the formation of gas.
>>Continued indigestion will ultimately cause the breakdown of vital
>>structures which can result in ulcers and even cancer. Therefore
>>carbohydrates and proteins should be eaten at separate meals."
>>Dr. Herbert M. Shelton
>> 
>
>I'm confused.  Aren't many foods a combination of carbohydrates and proteins
>anyway?  Also, doesn't any theory on diet have to have anthropological
>evidence?  I.e. did people use to eat such foods separately? I don't see such
>evidence in existing diets around the world, but I would be interested in
>hearing about such evidence.
>
>Mark

I posted this before, but it got chewed up in transit (pun intended)

I have an undergraduate degree in Microbiology and Immunology. I also got
a few courses in Biochemistry along with that deal. I know for a fact that
it is impossible for putrefaction or fermentation to take place in the
stomach. The human body does not make enzymes that are involved in those
processes. The neccessary enzymes for fermentation and putrefaction come
from bacteria or yeast, and unless you are very ill those critters will
*not* be present in your stomach. The HCl would bump them off in seconds.
Therefore, any statement that a certain food combination will cause
putrefaction or fermentation in the stomach must be false.

This information is contained in the Microbiology Text written by Cano and
Colome, whic was published in the late 80's. It is also possible that
there is more information in some of the other books that are currently
scattered throughout my apartment. I will post complete references on
request.

Annette
From: ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek)
Subject: Re: vegetarian diet
Organization: Good place for a disclaimer
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:28:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.102402.6630@iscsvax.uni.edu> howard@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
[About Fit for Life & the Diamonds]
>Someone who pushes no caffiene, no alcohol, no smoking, whole grain rice, 
>pasta, and bread, fresh fruit, lots of vegetables, and no refined sugar can't 
>be all bad- even if I may slightly disagree about what foods can be 

My retarded cousin isn't all bad, he's really very nice.  Should I follow
his nutritional advice?

By mixing total garbage in with sound advice, who knows whether they
turn off more people than they educate?  

Just hate to see that defense.
-- 
Ed Pavelchek   ekp@mcnc.org
But I make a profit of 3 1/4 cents an egg by selling them for 4 1/4
cents an egg to the people in Malta I buy them from for 7 cents an egg.
Of course, *I* don't make the profit.          Joseph Heller, Catcha 22
From: andreaf@bonnie.Rational.COM (Andrea Frankel)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: hypoglycemia-- TESTS
Date: 15 Sep 92 02:58:46 GMT

I had a similar reaction the last time I had the "full scale" glucose 
tolerance test about twenty years ago.  For that reason, I have resisted
having one since, while keeping careful lookout for signs of diabetes
which runs in my family.

The GP I found after moving up here used a simple test of the form:
	fast
	take first blood sample
	eat a sugary meal (e.g. pancakes and syrup, or several donuts)`
	take second blood sample 2 hours after start of meal
which she claims tells her just as much.  I carried an apple with me to
the hospital, and chomped down as soon as they had the second sample!
Was a little shaky the rest of the morning, but no major headaches and
blackouts as in the "full scale" test.

However, this test method showed me as having normal response.  The
doctor who I go to for preventative medicine and care of chronic illness
(CFIDS, in my case) believes I am clearly hypoglycemic from taking my
history, regardless of what the blood sugar reads.  I guess the proof is
in the pudding, so to speak:  I have better energy, mental clarity, and
freedom from headaches when I eat like a hypoglycemic than when I don't.



Andrea Frankel (andreaf@rational.com) -- Rational, Grass Valley Office
"Wake now!  Discover that you are the song that the morning brings..."

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: China Study
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 04:41:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Thanks to Ferrell Wheeler for posting the China Study article from the New
York Times. This provides even more recent and stronger evidence that it
is a good idea, as Tony Robbins and the Diamonds suggest, to cut out
all meat and dairy for improved health. The self-styled experts here
who are mocking those materials have one more layer of egg on
their faces, as do those who insist a calorie is a calorie and calories
are everything.

It's only a matter of time before we start seeing some food combining
studies as well.

One may expect the nutritionists, together with the meat and dairy
industries to do everything they can to try to obfuscate and denigrate
the results of this study; the nutritionists because it discredits
much of what many have been saying, and the meat and dairy industries
for obvious reasons. It won't be long now before they start to be
viewed in the same boat with the tobacco folks for continuing to
promote deadly products while denying and obfuscating the research.

Knowing my way around Washington as I do (I served as a senior
policymaker for a Cabinet Secretary), one may also expect the lobbyists
to try to figure out a way to cut funding or halt the China Study
before it's complete, or to subject the findings to "political"
review.

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar)
Subject: Re: Does vegetarian get enough nutrition from food?
Organization: UTCS Campus Access
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:12:17 GMT

In article <HAYDENS.92Sep10125403@bullwinkle.juliet.ll.mit.edu> haydens@juliet.ll.mit.edu writes:
# 
# I am absolutely convinced that a well-balanced diet which "is high in
# fiber, low in fat (especially animal fat), and includes generous
# portions of fruits and vegetables" is much healthier than the average
# American diet. But I am skeptical of the nutritional basis for your
# statement that "the best diets are pure vegetarian diets."

Hayden,
	as a vegan, I'd like to take up the challenge and argue the benefits
of a strict vegetarian diet (no milk, eggs or cheese etc.) strictly on the
basis of health and nutrition.  But it would take me many hours to refer back
to the books that I've read.  Hours that I wouldn't mind spending, but I lack
the time.  If you are interested in finding out why some of us choose to eat
this way, I suggest you look for the following books sometime:

		The power of your plate by Neal Barnard M.D.
		Vegan nutrition, pure and simple by Michael Kaplan M.D.

There are many others, but these two are short, go easy on the ethics and
discuss the health related issues of diet.

Regards,
Tom
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
From: leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Leslie Bishko)
Subject: Re: Caprenin, an artificial fat
Organization: Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:03:43 GMT

In article <NAN.92Sep13153411@ertou.ucsc.edu> nan@ertou.ucsc.edu (Nan Ellman) writes:
>
>I just got a "MILKY WAY II" bar which claims to have 25% fewer
>calories.....

Say, Nan, if I may be so bold....

		 HOW MANY CALORIES IN THAT CANDY BAR ???????? :-) :-) 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tough moment this weekend, walking into a movie theater I tried
talking the SO into some junk food.  I was ready to do it.  The
theater was packed, he said, "Let's go get seats, besides, weren't
you at your Weight Watchers meeting a few hours ago?"

We got past the concession, I lived!  I walked out of the theater
feeling pretty relieved!

 - Leslie

-- 
Leslie Bishko
leslie@cgrg.ohio-state.edu
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Keywords: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:09:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Sep15.010940.13849
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Sep14.184925.20787@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jil@uts.uucp (Jamie Lubin) writes:
>I've been taking ~ 2800 mg. daily for > 15 years with only positive effects. I
>use a "natural" C as opposed to pure ascorbic acid.

Inasmuchas "natural C" is "pure ascorbic acid", there ain't much difference
between the two.

>>	3) Vitamin C, an anti-Oxidant also has a mild anti-histaminic affect,
>>	   which is why patients who take it during a "flu/cold" attack
>>	   feel better.Is that right ?
>True.

Nope.

>>	4) what would be the dosage recommended for a normal adult ?
>No one really knows.  Trial & error in the best method.  The RDAs (recommended
>daily allowances) are basically too low & don't take biochemical individuality
>into account.

Right; we've got all these "biochemical individuals" out there who would
otherwise be incapacitated if the didn't get their 2800 mg of vitamin C
daily.  God, this is depressing.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:192 rec.food.veg:8694
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Subject: Re: Fluoride:  Threat or Menace?
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:14:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.225209.26988@csl.sri.com>, boucher@roche.csl.sri.com (Peter K. Boucher) writes:
>
>I was recently told several interesting things about flouride:
>
>1) Naturally occurring calcium fluoride _may_ be beneficial, but
>   sodium fluoride is pure poison (used as rat poison).
>
>2) The source of sodium fluoride is a toxic waste product of refining
>   aluminum (tailings?).
>
>3) The aluminum industry was having great difficulties disposing of
>   this toxic waste legally.
>
>4) Every study that's shown benefits of fluoride was either
>      a) about _calcium_ fluoride, or
>      b) bought and paid for by the aluminum industry.
>
>Anyone out there know better?

Well, the fluoride used in Crest toothpaste is, if I recall correctly, stannous
(tin) fluoride.  That seems to shoot a rather large hole in your conspiracy
theory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:285 alt.support.diet:1997
From: nan@ertou.ucsc.edu (Nan Ellman)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
Subject: Caprenin, an artificial fat
Date: 13 Sep 92 15:34:11
Organization: /u/nan/.organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ertou.ucsc.edu



I just got a "MILKY WAY II" bar which claims to have 25% fewer
calories due to the use of caprenin "a reduced calorie fat made from
natural sources." 

I've never of caprenin before. The only fake fats I'm aware of are
olestra and simpless. Can anyone tell me anything about this? 


Thanks,

 
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Nan Ellman <nan@helios.ucsc.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: mazur@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Beth Mazur)
Subject: Re:  Good basic book on nutrition
Organization: Intermetrics Inc, Cambridge MA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:17:03 GMT

In article <-stnjlr.artemis@netcom.com> artemis@netcom.com (Michelle Dick) writes:
>Even with a diet containing no saturated fat,
>getting 1 tablespoon of polyunsaturated fat pushes most folks over 10%
>calories from fat.  Later in the chapter she says you can go down to
>as little as 10% of calories as fat with no risk to health.  Granted,
>it's a minor point, but it is an inconsistency. 

How so?  I would imagine that most folks eat well over 1200 calories a 
day, so 1T of fat would be under 10%, no?  

I also assume that what she means is essentially 10-15g of fat per day,
from the foods one eats, not 1T of oil taken separately.  Given that
most people are hard pressed to consume only 30% of their calories in
fat, I'm not so sure what is outrageous about her 1T number.

Beth Mazur                   "...life is more than a vision.  The sweetest
mazur@inmet.inmet.com         part is acting after making a decision."
...!uunet!inmet!mazur                                  -- The Indigo Girls
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:200 rec.food.veg:8703 rec.arts.books:15979
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg,rec.arts.books
Subject: More Books to Avoid (was: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:13:30 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) wrote,
            in sci.med.nutrition and rec.food.veg:
[ promoting a crank health book ]
> Their latest book bears testimonials from:
> Glenn H. Koepke, M.D. of St. Joseph Hospital, Tucson, AZ;
[ many, many more lines of M.D.'s deleted ]

This coincidentally comes up at the same time as a thread on rec.arts.books
about things on book covers that set your crap alarm off ("in the gripping
tradition of Jeffrey Archer"...).  This trips one of mine several times
over: books with "M.D." after the author's name on the cover.

It's an appeal to authority - "this guy is a REAL DOCTOR, just like in the
Reader's Digest" - that I find about as inviting as a foreword from the
Pope.  Usually the contents are sub-Christian inspirational pap or crass
market-research-generated "product" aimed at middle-class hypochondriacs.
I suspect that most of this genre is ghostwritten, though their blandly
derivative smugness does fit their ostensible authorship.

[ Followups to rec.arts.books ]

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:244 sci.med:17212
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,sci.med
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Keywords: some people need LOTS of food energy
Date: 11 Sep 92 16:57:52 GMT
Followup-To: sci.med.nutrition
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

|Thanks to Steve Dyer for once more demonstrating his dispassionate
|analytic mind through the use of such terms of art as "looney." It's
|a pleasure to participate in such a rational and civilized
|discussion group that "has such creatures in it."

If you spent half the energy you spend whining about mean old Steve
and the mean old doctors on posting some substantive information and
evidence maybe someone would take you seriously.  You're the one
making claims, not mean old Steve and the mean old doctors, so you're
the only one who has to prove something.

	/JBL
=
Nets: levin@bbn.com  | 
pots: (617)873-3463  |                                      "I gotta go."
              N1MNF  |                                            -- I. Shoales
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler)
Subject: Vegetarianism Bolstered
Organization: Supercomputing Research Center (Bowie, MD)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:37:26 GMT


>From Vegetarian Times, October 1992:

The body of research supporting vegetarianism's health benefits just
keeps growing, as evidenced by the Second International Conference on
Vegetarian Nutrition, held this past june in Washington, D.C.  More than
400 persons from 30 countries - many of them scientists, physicians and
dieticians - attended the conference.

The message of the research presented at the conference, which covered
the five years since the first one, in 1987, was clear:  As a group,
vegetarians, both adults and children, are well-nourished and experience
much lower rates of chronic disease than nonvegetarians.

The majority of research findings that were presented at the conference
have already been reported in Vegetarian Times and in scientific and
academic journals, but the forum provided a significant opportunity for
the professional community to get together and discuss, both formally and
informally, their findings.

Among the highlights:

Dean Ornish, M.D., of the University of California Preventive Medicine
Research Institute, presented his findings that the recommended dietary
fat guidelines of the American Heart Association (AHA) is too high, and
that to reverse heart disease, a low-fat diet should derive no more than
10 percent of calories from fat, in contrast to the AHA standard of
30 percent.

Scientist T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D., of Cornell University, spoke about the
massive China Project on Nutrition, Health and Environment, which has
shown that a plant-based diet provides adequate iron and reduces incidence
of cancer, leukemia, diabetes and coronary heart disease.

Vernon Young, Ph.D., D.Sc., of Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
confirmed that protein complementing - combining foods to boost
amino acid content - is completely unnecessary and that vegetarians
get plenty of protein from beans, grains and soyfoods, among other
plant sources.

The conference was organized by Loma Linda University, the Loma Linda
University Medical Center, and the Seventh-day Adventist Association.
Loma Linda University, which is owned and operated by the Seventh-day
Adventist Church, has long been a leader in the field of vegetarian
nutrition.  The Christian denomination believes that a vegetarian
diet is the proper diet, and approximately half of the church's
7 million members are believed to be vegetarian.
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:56:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Sep15.005637.13100
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <JDB.92Sep14150434@camano.seo.dec.com> jdb@camano.seo.dec.com (Jeffrey D Brennan) writes:
>I found it interesting to note that this theory of protein/starch
>combination explains why beans are difficult to digest and often
>cause flatulence;

It doesn't.

>they are a natural protein/starch combination.

Most foods are.

This does NOT explain why beans cause flatulence (the "difficult to
digest" phrase is just meaningless.)  Beans contain disaccharides which
are not split into simple sugars by digestive enzymes.  It has nothing
to do with how much or how little protein they contain.  These sugars
are carried, undigested, into the colon whereupon your gut bacteria
proceed to digest them, generating gas (CO2 and methane).  This has
nothing to do with "fermentation" or "putrefaction".

Soaking beans adequately will rid them of these indigestible sugars, since
they're on the outer coat--there's a particular process you can follow to
optimize this, which is often reprinted in books on cooking with beans.
"Beano", an enzyme from the bacterium Aspergillus flavus, can be added
to yur first spoonful of beans if you're still sensitive to this.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: hypoglycemia-- TESTS
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:40:09 GMT

In article <38562@zephyr.ens.tek.com> waynec@tektronix.tek.com writes:
>
>    I had the glucose tolerance test for hypoglycemia and this is how it went:
>
>    After a 12 hour fast, I went to the hospital for the test.  They started by
>taking a blood sample.  Then they gave me a glass of "Glucola", a very sugary
>clear drink tasting like very sweet 7up.  After 20-30 minutes they took another
>blood sample (I was feeling high on the sugar).  After about 20 more minutes I
>started showing symptoms of hypoglycemia (shaking, weakness).  They took the
>next sample and after analyzing it called the doctor to ask if they should
>"bring me out of it".  He said no as he wanted to see what my recovery rate
>was.  They had me lay down and only woke me for the now hourly blood samples.
>I can't remember for sure, but I think the whole thing took 5 hours.  My arms
>were like pin cushions and I had the worst headache I have every had.

Two things to look for:

1) a high rate of drop in glucose level is troublesome
as glucose may drop very low briefly, between samples

2) The response time to peak insulin concentration.  Normal
response time is a peak within 30 minutes or so.  A delayed
response time may indicate defective, inactive insulin which
traditional tests cannot distinguish from good insulin.
-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition