HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:28:48 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.152703.18186@pmafire.inel.gov> cdm@pmafire.inel.gov (Dale Cook) writes:
>In article <1992Nov13.061824.8598@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>It depends on how badly that one person wants the resource and how strongly
>>other individuals want to preserve it. That's where the market can set a
>>quanitative valuation. If 100 million people want to preserve a resource,
>>but are only willing to spend a penny each to do so, and one individual
>>is willing to expend 10 million and *one* dollars to use the resource,
>>then the market says that his voice wins the decision.
>
>So, if I decide to build a waste incinerator upwind of New York City, and
>I live in oh, say, Denver, I should be allowed to feed the waste stream into
>my cheap furnace and dump the toxics into the air?  Unless of course, the
>good people of NYC want to protect their clean air and *pay* for a high-
>tech furnace that doesn't emit significant toxics?  And, hey, suppose I
>just don't _want_ one of them new-fangled devices that always break down -
>that 40's vintage stuff works just fine, thank you very much, but I'll
>pass on your kind offer?

The people of NYC have several alternative strategies to deal with this
type of situation. If they value clean air highly, they can boycott your
facility, depriving it of things to burn. If you persist and import waste
to burn, they can offer a subsidized clean disposal facility to *compete* 
against you at rates that would be ruinous for your business. They don't
even have to locate this facility near yours, or use incineration. As
long as the waste is disposed of, you're out of business. Lastly, they 
could simply buy you out, but that would be undesirable since it would 
encourage others to emulate you. That's market action at work. If there's
a need for an incineration facility, somebody will supply it, and if it
isn't clean enough, somebody else can go into competition with a cleaner
one at a clean air subsidy.

Gary
Newsgroups: sci.environment,ca.environment,ba.transportation
From: fernando@netnews.jhuapl.edu (Pineda Fernando J. RMI x8639 )
Subject: (M) water chemistry (repost)
Organization: JHU/Applied Physics Laboratory
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:49:33 GMT


Alright! This post should be uncorrupted. I've been very busy on work and personal things (papers for publication, teaching, getting married, etc.) so I had to put this on the back burner. 
Nevertheless, thank you to everyone who e-mailed me helpful bits of information.

I'm now posting from a unix workstation rather than my MAC II. I sucessfully test-posted this to dc.test and it checked out. So hopefully from now on my posts should reach sci.aquaria intact.

------------------------------ repost ---------------------------

To get a first pass quantitative understanding of Calcium and "Hardness" water chemistry I dusted off my old chemistry books, went to the library, did a few experiments, and made some phone calls. The result of this little exercise in recreational science is a set of notes that may be useful to others who are trying to understand what's going on. 

These notes are still incomplete, but if there is sufficient interest I will continue to post my notes as I learn more.  I welcome interactions with 

SUMMARY

There are two main sections here. The first section summarizes the essential quantitative facts needed to understand some aspects of water chemistry. By "understand" I mean that one should be able to do calculations. The second section gives detailed information about test kits, i.e. what they actually measure and how they do it (chemistry!). This information was obtained by calling around to the manufacturers and discussing the chemistry of their kits. Also several people contributed via e-mail. I only ha
ve experience with the LaMotte calcium kit so there are some omissions in the descriptions of the other test kits. You may want to fill in the blanks and e-mail or post the missing parts. Here are some highlights, in no particular order:

LaMotte (and Hach) make test kits that measure total Calcium in solution and test kits that measure both Calcium and total hardness. With the latter kits you can estimate magnesium hardness too, but this is not too useful for aquarists. For people that have Ca hardness test kits I describe a delightful experiment that illustrates how the buffering effect of CaCO3 maintains the level of free Ca++ ions in solution. It demonstrates that that the time scale of the CaCO3 equilibrium reaction is ~5 seconds or le
ss. 

The terms "Carbonate Hardness" and "Carbonate Alkalinity" are identical. They both refer to HCO3- and CO3-- concentrations. Measurements of these quantities are only indirectly related to the amount of calcium in the water through the 
reaction CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O <=> Ca++ + 2[ HCO3-].  

-- 

Fernando J. Pineda
2-254
The Applied Physics Laboratory
From: 01mbmccabe@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Re: heaters
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:59:57 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

>> I run two Panguin 550 powerheads and a Dynaflow3 in my 20high tank (i.e.
>> PLEANTY of circulation) and the tamp. in my tank never goes above or below
>> 81 degrees Farenheit.  (Except in the summer of course, when room temp. is
>> above 81 deg.:)

> I have two power heads in my 20 gallon tank, when I installed them my tank
> went up two more degrees - it is now consistently running at 84 degrees F.
> 
> Fish seem to be more active - I guess theydon't mind the temp.

Yea...your tank is probably 84deg all over instead of 85 or 86 right around the
heater.  Can't you lower your heaters thermostat?

				-Matt
From: booth@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (George Booth)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:28:32 GMT
Subject: Information about lights
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
From: davep@paladin.corp.sgi.com (David Packer)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Re: heaters
Date: 20 Nov 92 00:50:53 GMT
Followup-To: sci.aquaria
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: paladin.corp.sgi.com


Yea,

That's a good question. I have a 40gal[M]. with a 100watt, that's 2.5
and it keeps the temperature pretty stable...

but oddly enough I have a 100watt in my 26gal. reef. It seems to 
a harder time keeping the temperature at a steady level.

So I think the 2.5 is really a minimum rating depending on other variables.
i.e. house temperature where it's located in the house.. My reef is on a tile
floor right near the front door. So it gets a lot colder at night in that
hallway vs. my Main tank which stays at a fairly level 79.

Dave.
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: tse@ra.nrl.navy.mil (Anthony Tse)
Subject: Re: heaters
Organization: Naval Research Lab, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:01:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.222848.12139@bsu-ucs> 01mbmccabe@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>In article <Bxwnvy.8Cw@ecmwf.co.uk>, sya@ecmwf.co.uk (Adam Bracewell) writes:
>> Hi netters,
>> 
>> Just been reading the FAQ for these groups and something struck me as odd.
>> In the section titled Starting a new Aquarium, the heater wattage recommended (as a rule
>> of thumb) is 2.5 watts per gallon.
>> My question - is this really enough ? I've recently seen 8 watts/gal recommended.
>
>I've seen 5watts per gallon posted in more thatn one peice of literature, so
>that's what I go by.  I'd say 2.5watts per gallon would be the minimum I would
>supply...anything more than around 5 or 8 would just be 'extra security' I'd
>think.
>
>					-Matt

    However, if your heater ever get stuck, you'll have a tank of soup
in no time flat.  Whereas if you have 2.5 Wpg, the tank maybe at 85
degrees when you come home from work.  If you want extra security, you
should have both big heaters and big chiller.
    I have 200W in a 75g, the house is at 68 degree, I have a fan blowing
across the top of the tank so there is about a liter of evaporation a
day, the tank stay at 75 degree all the time.

-Anthony
From: mdkj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Re: CO2 levelsDIR
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:34:22 EST
Reply-To: opsomer@orie.cornell.edu
Distribution: sci
Organization: Cornell University

In article <1992Nov23.020951.27843@brtph560.bnr.ca>,
bhaskar@brtph598.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar) writes: 

> The difference in stalk length of the sword plant could be because the
> plant you bought had been grown in crowded conditions, forcing the
> leaves to grow longer to reach the light.  Still, 8" is rather small
> for an E. bleheri leaf.  I have noticed that some species of crypts
> (C. nevilii for one) tends to have smaller leaves in my tank.  I think
> this was probably because the plants I bought had been grown emersed.
> However, Hygro species usually have larger (and sometimes dramatically
> different) leaves under water than above, so you should not be seeing
> a reduction in their leaf size.  What species of Hygrophila do you have?

I have Hygrophila polysperma, and their leaves are about 1 inch long :-(

> I don't know of any cheap [CO2 diffusion] (less than
> $100) way.  The FAQ on plants has information on CO2 injection.

You mean, there is a way to diffuse CO2 for not much more than $100?  I would
be interested in finding out more about that, if anyone has information about
this (I'm a new Net user, and although I have heard a lot about the FAQ, I have
no idea what it is or how to access it... a quick referral on this topic would
also be appreciated).  Thanks in advance on both counts.

John Opsomer
opsomer@orie.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: bhaskar@brtph598.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar)
Subject: Re: CO2 levels
Organization: BNR Inc. RTP, NC
Distribution: sci
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:09:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.164728.16086@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> mdkj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>I have been keeping plants in my two tanks for quite a while, and although they
>grow well, they tend to stay smaller than what they were when I originally
>bought them.  As an example, I bought a giant amazon (A. bleheri) 6 months ago
>with leaves (plus stems) that reached about 15 in.  Now, all new leaves are
>only half that size (most of the difference is in the stem).  The same happens
>with my cryptos and hygrophilas.  

The difference in stalk length of the sword plant could be because the
plant you bought had been grown in crowded conditions, forcing the
leaves to grow longer to reach the light.  Still, 8" is rather small
for an E. bleheri leaf.  I have noticed that some species of crypts
(C. nevilii for one) tends to have smaller leaves in my tank.  I think
this was probably because the plants I bought had been grown emersed.
However, Hygro species usually have larger (and sometimes dramatically
different) leaves under water than above, so you should not be seeing
a reduction in their leaf size.  What species of Hygrophila do you have?
 
>I add weekly iron and trace elements, and have laterite in the bottom gravel. 
>I use 3 40W Triton bulbs on the 70G tank and a reverse-flow Eheim undergravel
>filter.  I have a relatively small amount of
>hair algae among my floating plants.
>My question is: could this lack of "big" growth be the result of CO2
>deficiency? 

You could try adding a couple of 40W lights.  But if you are asking
whether your plants will grow bigger with CO2 than without, my experience
says yes.  I am sure most people who use CO2 injection will agree that
it is the most important aid to keeping lots of large, healthy, fast 
growing plants.

>If so, what would be an acceptable level and how is it reachable
>(preferably without having to buy a $$$ diffuser...)?

About 10-20 ppm of CO2 is good.  I don't know of any cheap (less than
$100) way.  The FAQ on plants has information on CO2 injection.

-Shaji.



-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Shaji Bhaskar     BNR, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709     (bhaskar@bnr.ca)
From: 01mbmccabe@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Re: heaters
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:55:18 GMT
Followup-To: sci.aquaria
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

> That's a good question. I have a 40gal[M]. with a 100watt, that's 2.5
> and it keeps the temperature pretty stable...
> 
> but oddly enough I have a 100watt in my 26gal. reef. It seems to 
> a harder time keeping the temperature at a steady level.
> 
> So I think the 2.5 is really a minimum rating depending on other variables.
> i.e. house temperature where it's located in the house.. My reef is on a tile
> floor right near the front door. So it gets a lot colder at night in that
> hallway vs. my Main tank which stays at a fairly level 79.

I'd say above all else, the thing that will help your heater keep the most
consistent tank temp. is good water circulation around the heater.

I run two Panguin 550 powerheads and a Dynaflow3 in my 20high tank (i.e.
PLEANTY of circulation) and the tamp. in my tank never goes above or below
81 degrees Farenheit.  (Except in the summer of course, when room temp. is
above 81 deg.:)
			-Matt
From: bdd0066@venus.tamu.edu (Bryan (I'm not an Aerospace Engineer, but I play one on tv) Duke)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: [M]Damsel
Date: 22 Nov 1992 18:01 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.tamu.edu
Keywords: Power loss, Stuck mouth
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Due to a rather violent storm that moved through the area 
last night and early this morning, my power
was out for about 8 hours.  After the power came back on,
I checked all of my tanks to make sure everything was okay.
I noticed that in my marine tank all of the amenones moved 
from their normal resting places to roam the tank and also
that my Three-striped Damsel could not move his mouth.

The anemones have since resettled and are happy, but the 
damsel is still having mouth troubles (5 hours after power 
came back on).  His mouth is stuck open.  He seems to be 
breathing okay, but he can't (or won't) eat.  I can see no 
growths or any sign of disease on him--he just can't move his
mouth. 

Is this behavior known to anyone?  Is it possible that he
was stung by an anemone?  Please tell me what you know--I
hate it when fish die.

--bd

Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: mar@athena.mit.edu (Mark A. Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: sump float switch question
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:56:52 GMT

The term "float switch" could describe a lot of things.  In 
connection with aquaria, it generally refers to a device which
senses water level, and when that level passes above or below
a particular set point, throws a switch to provide power to
something or to stop providing power.  They generally switch
regular 110V outlets so that you can plug in any device.  The
physical switch may directly toggle line power, or it may 
control a low voltage relay which in turn controls line power.

The kind I'm familiar with have a styrofoam float with a magnet
imbedded in it, and a reed switch which throws when the magnet
is next to it.  By turning the float around, you can have it
either provide power when the water level is high, or cut off
power.

The ones sold especially for aquariums are often quite expensive.
I made one myself which has worked fine for over a year now.  The
key piece is a float switch from W.W.Grainger (a nation-wide chain
of industrial suppliers), part number 2A554 for $10.50.  I'm fairly
certain it's properly rated to control power heads, although some-
one has questioned this and I keep forgetting to double-check the
specs.  It is saltwater safe.  To this switch I add an aquarium
airline suction cup to hold it in place in the sump, and connect
the wires to half of a "switched outlet".  This is a device you can
get where extension cords are sold which has a switch at one end of
a long cord and a plug/outlet combination at the other end.  I cut
the wire and replace the switch with the float switch, and voila!
The float switch controls the outlet.
					-Mark
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: bednarek@picard.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971)
Subject: Re: heaters
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 11:01:17 GMT


Well the old formula I vaguely remember took into acount
difference between room temperature and water temperature.
2.5 wats per gallon as 25 watts on a 10 gallon sounds
verey low to me unless there is only about one degree
difference between the room and the tank.  8 watts
or 240 watts in a 30 gallon tank sounds a bit high.
Remember you don't want so much wattage that if the 
termostat sticks you bake the fish in a couple hours.

--
---------------------------
| UP TIGHT                 | 
| OUT OF SIGHT             |
| EVERY THING IS ALL RIGHT | 
___________________________

The usual disclaimer of self
 and employer applies to all
 above comments.
#
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: ghosh <SASAXG@mvs.sas.com>
Subject: Re: Float switch for sump pump
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 13:37:00 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.

>Newsgroups: sci.aquaria,rec.aquaria,alt.aquaria
>Path: mozart.unx.sas.com!sas!concert!gatech!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!ssec.wisc.edu!rader
>From: rader@ssec.wisc.edu (Steve Rader)
>Subject: Re: Float switch for sump pump
>Message-ID: <1992Nov9.222001.28262@cs.wisc.edu>
>Sender: news@cs.wisc.edu (The News)
>Organization: University of Wisconsin, Space Science and Engineering Center
>References:  <1992Nov3.072949.3924@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> <1992Nov4.161045.17300@athena.mit.edu>
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:20:01 GMT
>Lines: 33
>
>mar@athena.mit.edu (Mark A. Rosenstein) writes:
>|> I've made two different kinds of float switches.  The first only cost me
>|> a couple of dollars, but wasn't especially reliable and called for a part
>|> from Radio Shack that has been discontinued (a mercury tilt switch).
>|>
>|> The ones I use now use a float switch from W.W.Grainger (an industrial
>|> supplier with offices in most cities) which costs $12.  They have one small
>|> float switch which is safe for acidic environments, and seems to stand up
>|> to salt water fine.  I use a random aquarium airline suction cup to hold it
>|> to the side of the sump.  Then I buy one of those extension cord things that
>|> has a 120V plug & socket at one end, and a remote switch at the other.  Cut
>|> the switch off the cord and connect it to the leads from the float switch.
>|> The float switch now turns an electric outlet on & off!
>
>I'm glad this works for 'ya, but if I recall correctly, Grainger's does *not*
>offer a 120V rated plastic float switch.  I suspect you're using a 12V rated
>float switch to switch 120V circuit.  I'm not sure what the consequences may
>be of using a 12V switch for a 120V circuit... I think you'll at least shorten
>the switch's life-time and perhaps even harm your pump.  (I do know when I
>asked some EE geeks around here 'bout using a 12V switch, they definitely
>told me to use a relay to actually switch the pump.)  Even with cheap
>powerheads, IHMO it's prudent to use a properly rated switch or else wire in a
>appropiate relay.
>
>Steve
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Steve Rader                             rader@ssec.wisc.edu
>Sys Admin
>Space Sci & Engineering Center          Ain't nothing in the world
>University of Wisconsin, Madison        like a green skinned girl
>                                        Omnibus, takes all of us
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
 I just bought one yesterday from Graingers. It is rated for upto 240 V
plastic float switch for $10.50. This will work fine as a float switch
My thanks to Mark for giving the tip.
 
ghosh
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: harold@wam.umd.edu (James B. Harold)
Subject: Re: heaters
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:28:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.165753.7695@medtron.medtronic.com> ds0007@medtronic.COM (Dale Skiba) writes:
>Adam Bracewell (sya@ecmwf.co.uk) wrote:
>: Just been reading the FAQ for these groups and something struck me as odd.
>: In the section titled Starting a new Aquarium, the heater wattage recommended (as a rule
>: of thumb) is 2.5 watts per gallon.
>: My question - is this really enough ? I've recently seen 8 watts/gal recommended.
>
>Well, I think something is missing there.  The formula should contain
>the DIFFERENCE in temperatures between the water and room temperature.

Mmm.  Haven't looked at the FAQ for awhile.  For general interest,
VisiTherm heaters come with a little chart for determining wattage
based on number of gallons and the required temperature pull-up.
I'd type it in right now, but it's at the very bottom of my stack
of fish-stuff boxes :-).  If there's demand, I'll dig it up.  Might
be nice to add to the FAQ.

And yeah, you can go on all night on modifications to such a
chart, but barring obvious deviations (such as my open topped
tank with a fan and metal halide lighting), I've found that that
those two parameters (gallons and delta(T)) seem to work ok.

I'll second (third?) the caveat about getting too powerful
a heater:  a friend of mine recently converted his African
tank to bouillabaisse that way :-(  (when his heater jammed on).
Some of the better, more modern heaters claim to be solid state
so that this is a less likely occurrence, but there's little
point in taking the chance.  

-- 

James Harold                 "There is always an easy solution to
harold@wam.umd.edu            every human problem -- neat, plausible,
                              and wrong."    --  H. L. Mencken 
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: ds0007@medtronic.COM (Dale Skiba)
Subject: Re: heaters
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:57:53 GMT

Adam Bracewell (sya@ecmwf.co.uk) wrote:
: Hi netters,
: 
: Just been reading the FAQ for these groups and something struck me as odd.
: In the section titled Starting a new Aquarium, the heater wattage recommended (as a rule
: of thumb) is 2.5 watts per gallon.
: My question - is this really enough ? I've recently seen 8 watts/gal recommended.
: 
: Can anybody clarify ?
: 

Well, I think something is missing there.  The formula should contain
the DIFFERENCE in temperatures between the water and room temperature.

Then things may more complicated.  One may consider is whether there is
alot of air flow near your tank.  More air flow around the tank will
cause your tank to loose heat more rapidly.  A second thing to consider
is whether much water is allowed to evaporate.  The tank will be cooled
from any evaporation.  Yet a third factor to consider is whether you have
any power filters.  Power filters will add heat to the tank.  I have a
Magnum power filter in a 37 gallon tank.  By itself, it keeps the tank
about 4 degrees above room temperature when the room temperature ranges
between 65-70 degrees.  I refuse to consider the thermal conductivity
of the heater itself.  I think that will only effect things if you are
running your heaters near their limits. 

With all These things to consider, I think the best way to really know
is to just experiment and see what happens to your particular tank :-)

I have a 35 hex (with no power filter) that maintains a temperature of
80 degrees with two Ebo Jaguar 100 watt heaters.  The room temperature
varies between 65 to 70 degrees.  So my personal experience with this
tank is that I can heat 35 gallons 15 degrees above room temperature
with 200 watts.  If I turn off one of the heaters, the temperature
starts to fall, so I know that the exact wattage required, with these
heaters, is something between 100 and 200 watts.

--
Dale Skiba
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria