From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is conciousness?
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 06:24:54 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

brinkman@si151a.llnl.gov writes:

>    If you "don't think that the death of the body is a mystery" then
> exactly what is your point?  Earlier you defined "conciousness" == "life".
> If this is the case then "non-conciousness" == "dead".  It would help if
> you would present whatever ideas you are trying to get across in a much
> less ambiguous manner.

We said that life is conscious, not that life is consciousness.

>    Kalki, you seem to be confusing talk.origins with a useful forum for
> carrying on metaphysical discussions.  Now, although there are undoubtedly
> people here who can help answer your questions, these same questions have
> little or nothing to do with evolution.

Ok. Then what is the (talk.)origin of consciousness? Of course, first we
will need to decide what consciousness is.

> the improbability of abiogenesis.  Unfortunately, abiogenesis deals with
> the question of how the first living object developed, and has nothing to
> do with conciousness.  Let me rephrase, abiogenesis deals with conciousness
> only if you define conciousness == life.  If you are making that assertion,
> than you cannot attempt to weasel out of the questions Mark originally
> put to you by claiming that "Well we are really asking about conciousness,
> not death", because you have defined these concepts in relation to one
> another.

I see. So you think that all our posts should be about the same thing.
We are not supposed to deal with more than one issue. Is that it?

> Begin metaphysical ramblings.
> 
>    Let us look at a common example, called "The Paradox of Theseus's Ship."
> Theseus sets out on a 10 year Aegean-Mediterranean voyage upon his ship the
> Dawntreader (apologies to C.S. Lewis fans out there).  Now wooden ships tend
> to rot when exposed to water, so periodically the Dawntreader's crew would
> set ashore, fell some trees, form them into beams, planks, etc., and replace
> the rotting components.  At the end of the ten years, the Dawntreader returns
> to Athens with all of its original constituents replaced as described above.
> Now, the question to you, Kalki, is--Is the returning ship the Dawntreader?
> 
>    Be careful in answering, this is a rather knotty question.  If you say,
> "No, everything has been replaced so it is not the Dawntreader", you would
> find rather vocal opposition from Theseus and his crew, whom have strode the
> planks of the "same" ship over the past 10 years.  Furthermore, since 10
> years is more than enough time to replace all constituents in a human body,
> by the same criterion you would have to admit that the returning captain is
> not Theseus, or provide a more accurate distinction between the cases.
> 
>    If you say, "Yes, the returning ship is the Dawntreader", then you are
> exalting the Dawntreader, surely an inanimate object, to the same status as
> a living creature.  That is, you have said that an inanimate object has a
> continuity regradless of its components.  This continuity is precisely
> what it appears that you are defining conciousness (and hence life) to be
> in you musings on "He's gone.  Gone where?"

The name of the ship is whatever its proprietor names it. Since you call
it Theseus' ship, then Theseus can give you an authoritative answer.

Sincerely,
Kalki Dasa

       -------------------------------------------------------
      |  Don't forget to chant:   Hare Krishna Hare Krishna   |
      |                           Krishna Krishna Hare Hare   |
      |                           Hare Rama Hare Rama         |
      |                           Rama Rama Hare Hare         |
      |                                                       |
      |   Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA     |
      |        (kalki33!kalki@lakes.trenton.sc.us)            |
       -------------------------------------------------------