Newsgroups: bit.listserv.big-lan
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:00:08 EDT
From:         BIG-REQ@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      BIG-LAN Digest, Volume 4, Number 57, Tuesday, September 1, 1992

BIG-LAN DIGEST          Tuesday, 1 September 1992      Volume 4 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:

  Connecting ROTC units to campus networks - experience/security issues?
                                Crosstalk
                     Re: 10baseT hubs with filtering
                     Re: 10Base-T Noise and Crosstalk
             Re: wondering about 10baseT hubs with filtering
                          Looking for a brouter
             Re: wondering about 10baseT hubs with filtering
                                Crosstalk
                            Multi-Port Bridges
                       WELLFLEET, 3COM, etc address
                       Charon 4.0 is now available
                                Crosstalk
              Help Desk Management System Version4 Available
                      OSI Campus Network Addressing
                       secure filter multiport hub
                         CAMPUS ETHERNET CRASHES

Moderated by John Wobus, Syracuse University

Relevant addresses:
                                  Internet                BITNET
Submissions:              big-lan@suvm.acs.syr.edu     BIG-LAN@SUVM
Subscriptions:    big-lan-request@suvm.acs.syr.edu     BIG-REQ@SUVM
LISTSERV/Archives:       listserv@suvm.acs.syr.edu    LISTSERV@SUVM
Moderator:                jmwobus@syr.edu              JMWOBUS@SYREDU
Anonymous ftp archives:           syr.edu

Note: BIG-LAN is redistributed through many mailing lists at other sites
run by other individuals.  If you subscribe(d) through such a
"redistribution" list, you will need to remember its owner.

syr.edu also has a copy of the BIG-LAN "FAQ" memo (answers to frequently
asked questions) under the path information/big-lan/big-lan.faq

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:06 MST
From: "Linda Drake, CU Comp & Networks Srvs, 303 492-3864"
Subject: Connecting ROTC units to campus networks - experience/security issues?

We're in the process of helping one of the campus ROTC units network their
PCs with NetWare.  Our experience from working with other groups is they
would greatly benefit from a connection to the rest of the campus (email,
CWIS, gopher, etc.) not to mention the rest of the world, but they're nervous
about the security implications.  Because this is our first experience with
ROTC, we don't have a good understanding of their applications software and
are hesitant to assure them that there won't be any problems.

Have any other campuses encountered something similar?  Are you familiar with
the software they run to communicate with "headquarters" and how that might be
affected by a network connection?

Please Respond either to the list or to me directly, and I'll summarize for
the list (with permission from the responders).

Linda Drake
Computing and Network Services
University of Colorado, Boulder
drake_l@cubldr.Colorado.EDU
(303) 492-3864

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 17:06:39 -0700
From: Louis Grandieri <loug@nevada.edu>
Subject:      Crosstalk


    On your subject of Crosstalk. I have wired our new building with a
shielded 105 ohm 10Base-T cable from Belden. Belden 1456A, which comes
in 3 colors; blue, white and gray. It has a foil sheath and drain wire.

    We ran all our cables from the offices to one phone closet and
terminated all pairs on a AT&T 110 block. Then we tied all the drain wires
together and ran a #10 wire to building ground on the telephone protection
blocks.

    One person was having problems picking up radio stations until the
final ground connection was made. That cleared up the reception for him.

    It would be wise to rewire and shield all those runs. There is a lot
of high frequency running up and down the cables. The 10Base-T may be
happy with no shielding but other things may be sensitive.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ________           loug@nevada.edu
   |        |          Louis Grandieri
   | NEVADA |          Mgr., Telecommunications South
    \       |          UNSCS (University of Nevada System Computing Services)
      \     |          4505 S. Maryland Parkway
        \ * ;          Las Vegas, NV  89154
          \|           (702) 597-4525

===========================================================================

-------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:21 EDT
From:    Andy Hooper <HOOPER@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject:      Re: 10baseT hubs with filtering

| Among the options for dealing with this seem to a multi-port bridge device
| that would prevent packets from being sent to "non-secure" jacks, by
| filtering the frames on all jacks except for the one to the addressed
| device.

AT&T makes a 10BASE-T "SmartHUB" which does this. It jams data on all ports
other than the one with a matching configured MAC address. It can also track
movement of MAC addresses between ports. Price is about twice that of regular
10BASE-T hubs. I haven't had direct experience with them yet, as we're having
a hard time getting a supplier to deliver one!

Andy Hooper, Queen's University

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:16:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Lummis <rcl@aecom.yu.edu>
Subject:      Re: 10Base-T Noise and Crosstalk

I've wired a whole (small) campus recently and worried a lot about
10Base-T noise immunity but I have not had a single problem in that
regard.  In an experiment at the beginning of installation we jury-rigged
to most noise-inducing awful mess of wiring we could think of using the
cable designated for standard wiring and actual electronics at both ends.
We ran up 12 stories though the 55-foot diameter utility shaft of a
large research building and intentionally draped the wire over and around
electrical equipment -- DC elevator motors, compressors, DC relay panel,
flourescent lights, some magnetic resonance equipment, etc. etc.  Anything
that anybody could think of that might cause trouble we wrapped or draped with
the cable.  We tested it over several days with actual ethernet traffic
and also with a Hewlett Packard 10BAse-T cable tester.  The result: not a
single incident of noise interference.  (tested in various ways with a
sniffer, the HP cable tester, and a Lanalyzer)  Mind you-- this is new
AT&T 10Base-T cable, not in-place telephone wiring.

BTW: the HP 10Base-T cable tester is highly recommended.  It has found
numerous problems for us that we could not have located any other way.
It's best contribution was in showing that all of the 50-pin "champ" or
"Telco" connectors that the contractor was using introduced too much
near-end crosstalk.  Beware of this.  This is the connector that you use
to make up a cable to plug into a 12-port 10Base-T repeater module such as
the Cabletron TPMIM-32 and TPMIM-34.)  The traditional kind of 50-pin
connector is NG because its construction prevents the pairs from remaining
twisted all the way to their pins.  There is another kind readily
available that doesn't have this shortcoming.

rcl@aecom.yu.edu

-------------------------------------------------------

Date:	Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:53:21 -0400
From:	chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch)
Subject:      Re: wondering about 10baseT hubs with filtering

> Among the options for dealing with this seem to a multi-port bridge device
> that would prevent packets from being sent to "non-secure" jacks, by
> filtering the frames on all jacks except for the one to the addressed
> device.  The only device I have able to find (Kalpana) is very expensive.
> Has anyone else considered solutions to this problem, and found one that is
> affordable??

3Com has a new system called the "LAN Security Architecture". All packets on
all cables except the source and destination machine are scrambled to
prevent monitoring; the repeater will also automatically disconnect any port
that has an unauthorized Ethernet address.

Call 3Com (+1 408 764 5000) and ask for information about the LAN Security
Architecture, It's implemented in a product they call EtherConnect Systems.

I hope this helps you!

- --
"You are at wit's end.      | C. Harald Koch  Alias Research, Inc. Toronto, ON
Passages lead off in all    | chk@alias.com                (work-related mail)
directions..."  -related by | chk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca     (permanent address)
    Bryan Manske, 13-Aug-92 | VE3TLA@VE3OY.#SCON.ON.CA.NA            (AMPRNet)

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 10:24 CDT
From: Dan Abts - UWL System/Network Manager <ABTSACS@UWLAX.EDU>
Subject:      Looking for a brouter

Hello,

I sent the following message to the pc-ip list but only got one
response from a commercial router manufacturer saying their routers
are less expensive.  All responses will be greatly appreciated.  TIA

> What are you using in a situation where you need to bridge Novell
> ipx and route tcp/ip?  For ease of management, I am using bootp and
> rip.  I have tried the following:
>
> PCRoute 2.24 works fine on a quiet network if you don't have more
> than one brouter forwarding bootp.  I'm trying to connect 22
> buildings on our campus.  So far I have 11 buildings connected and
> most of the rest will only have a few pc's, but PCRoute hangs if
> used as the brouter to isolate a building.  Older versions of PCRoute
> don't hang up but still have the bootp problem.  I've tried various
> brands of network cards.  I could use the older version of PCRoute
> without forwarding bootp and place a bootp server in each building.
> My boss doesn't seem to like this idea.
>
> Karlbridge is a filtering bridge.  I've used this to make the
> backbone quieter, but it doesn't talk rip or help with routing.
> I realize that I could use Karlbridge in combination with PCRoute
> and make this work, but it means at least 44 machines rather than 22.
>
> Novell NW386 server or Multi-protocol router.  This works fine.  The
> problem is it requires a 386 with a hard drive.  This costs less
> than a commercial router and supports more than 2 network cards.
> Unfortunately, we bought 286 machines without hard drives.  We are
> looking into the cost of this upgrade.
>
> Commercial routers work fine but are expensive.  We have 2 cisco IGS
> routers that seem to do everything.  The problem is high cost
> especially for models that take more than 2 interfaces.
>
> Does anyone have any other ideas (commercial or otherwise)?  The
> other software that I am aware of (KA9Q, or commercial) will do
> routing or bridging but not both.  Thanks,

Dan Abts                                        ABTSACS@UWLAX.EDU
Academic Computing Services                     ABTSACS@UWLAX.BITNET
Univ. of Wisconsin - La Crosse			(608) 785-8031
1725 State St.					(608) 785-8907 FAX
La Crosse, WI  54601                            N9PZC

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:16:25 GMT
From: german@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Gregory German)
Subject:      Re: wondering about 10baseT hubs with filtering

BIG-REQ@SUVM.BITNET writes:

>Among the options for dealing with this seem to a multi-port bridge device
>that would prevent packets from being sent to "non-secure" jacks, by
>filtering the frames on all jacks except for the one to the addressed
>device.  The only device I have able to find (Kalpana) is very expensive.
>Has anyone else considered solutions to this problem, and found one that is
>affordable??

This has been a major concern as we have thought about how to bring the
campus network to each dorm room on campus.

Several vendors (3Com, Synoptics, and Ungermann-Bass) I have contacted are
offering "secure" 10baseT cards for their hubs.  These cards have a variety
of features, but include an anti-evesdropping option.

The method varies a little from vendor to vendor, but the hub essentially
learns or is told what ethernet Mac addresses are down each port and scrambles
the data portion of those packets not destined for that Mac address.

Your snooper could see packets, but not any valid data.

How affordable it is will depend on just what you need and what kind of
discount you can wrangle from the vendor.

>Scott Smith
>Data Communications Manager, University of Colorado-Boulder
- --
         Greg German (german@sonne.CSO.UIUC.EDU) (217-333-8293)
US Mail: Univ of Illinois, CSO, 1304 W Springfield Ave, Urbana, IL  61801
Office:  129 Digital Computer Lab., Network Design Office

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Aug 92 13:04 CST
From: Nielsen@act-act8-po.act.org
Subject:      Crosstalk

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 92 10:28:48 EST
From:         Jack Lubowsky <LUBOWSKY@SNYBKSAC>
Subject:      Crosstalk

> A contractor has just wired our building with 10Base-T to the floors
> from fiber risers. The 10Base-T cable (4 pair of #24) has been wired
> through carrels in the labs alongside unshielded ac power cables. The
> power cables are typical lab use lines (ie: not running heavy machinery)
> and the runs can be as long as 20 feet.
>
> Does anyone know whether there will be crosstalk problems sufficient to
> reduce performance. The decision is, do we...
>       1: leave things alone, it will probably be ok,
>       2: move the twisted pair cable and power cable apart and secure
>              with wire ties anywhere we can, (Could be labor intensive)
>       3: require the contractor to pull back the twisted pair and rerun
>              to minimize proximity to power cable?
>
> Any experiences or advice would be apreciated....Thanks

- -------------------------------------------------------

  Jack,

  In my opinion (and experience) the unshielded twisted pair (UTP) LAN
  cable running alongside the power cable will likely cause you problems.
  I'm not certain about the crosstalk, but the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR)
  is possibly where you'll have problems.  In any event, I always require
  our contractors to "certify" the cable by documenting the following for
  each and every cable run:

    1) Signal-to-noise ration >10 dB for Ethernet & Token Ring
    2) Near-end crosstalk (NEXT) >23 dB for Ethernet, >30.25 TRing
    3) Total distance (must be >329 feet)
    4) Attenuation <11.5 dB for Ethernet and <14.5 TRing

   =================================================================
   R. Bruce Nielsen                       Nielsen@act-act4-po.act.org
   Asst VP                                Voice: 319/337-1337
   American College Testing               FAX:   319/337-3020
   2255 N. Dubuque Rd
   Iowa City, IA 52243

-------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:23:34 EST
From:         Bob Gentile <RGENTILE@WCU>
Subject:      Multi-Port Bridges

      At West Chester University we are laying fiber between 42 buildings, and
 will have 1,200 PC workstations running on 10 Base-T.  Initial traffic will be
 mostly software download, E-mail, and terminal screens from an IBM host.
 Heavy
 imaging and video traffic are a couple of years in the future.

      For management reasons servers (15-20 486 PCs) will be in a central
 location.  Fiber will interconnect building concentrators and servers.  A
 multi-port bridging design offered by Cabletron seems attractive.  It is much
 less expensive than routers, is faster, and less complicated.  Routers can
 always be added, but we arn't sure why they are need now.  Routers also will
 be
 much more difficult and expensive to upgrade to FDDI.

      The concern that we have with multi-port bridging is that broadcasts
 will be sent across all the segments.  Multi-port bridges will do filtering,
 and "learn" paths between devices, which can help reduce broadcast traffic.
 SNMP will help control broadcast storms.  Is this enough control?  Is it worth
 paying 3-4 times as much for a routing solution?

      Any advise and especially any experience with multi-port bridging will
 be appreciated.  Thanks:  Bob Gentile   RGENTILE@WCU  (215) 436-1037

-------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 92 16:58:42 BD2
From:         Celso Marcos <CPDCBM@BRFURG>
Subject:      WELLFLEET, 3COM, etc address

I'd like to get the FAX numbers from :

          WELLFLEET
          PROTEON
          NCR
          3COM

Thanxs

-------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 28 Aug 92 15:56:14 EDT
From:     Brad Clements <bkc@omnigate.clarkson.edu>
Subject:      Charon 4.0 is now available

(sorry if you get this multiple times)

Charon 4.0 for Novell is now available via anonymous FTP (various sites),
archive-server (email) and modem (BBS).

Detailed instructions are included at the end of this document.

This version is shipped in a .ZIP format, which MUST be unzipped with
the -d option.
- ---
Version 4.0 (we're you expecting 3.5 perhaps?) adds LPR and LPD support
to version 3.4's SMTP capability. It is also able to transfer print
files between Novell queues on the same server, or between servers.

Print files can be translated using USER developed loadable translators
(samples are included).

This version supports Pmail's new delivery confirmation setting (can also
be turned off).

This version does a pretty good job reconnecting to downed servers
(except for the master server).

Due to the substantial increase in code, this version is now compiled to
use Borland's VROOM technology for code paging. This means that expanded
or extended memory is preferred, but not required. This version has been
tested on lowly XT's and it still works (albeit, slowly).

A PostScript (tm) and WordPerfect (tm) version of the 75 page manual is
included in the distribution. Read the manual carefully to see what has
changed during the upgrade process.
- ----
This version has gone through a whopping 16 beta releases. (a sign of
poor programming to be sure, and an aborted attempt to use RT-Link (tm)).

In any case, I wish to personally thank all of the beta testers who
participated in the development of this release.
(Names withheld to protect the innocent).
- ----
In an effort to justify this work (if such a thing is possible), a
registration form has been included in this release. The objective of
the form is to find out how many sites (and of what type) are using Charon.
There is absolutely no obligation to complete and return the form, and of
course this software is still totally FREE to use.

I ask that this form be filled out and email'd to the address on the form,
thats all. You won't receive a response either. Don't bother to use postal
mail or fax, its not worth it. After a reasonable period of time I'll post
some statistics, if anyone is interested.
- ----
** How to Get It **

1. Anonymous FTP from the following locations:

	omnigate.clarkson.edu:/pub/cutcp/charon/charon40.zip
	(128.153.4.2)

	liberty.uc.wlu.edu:/pub/charon/charon40.zip
	(137.113.10.35)

	syr.edu -- Somewhere on syr.edu in a few days

	gate.yec.york.ac.uk:/pub/charon/charon40.zip
	(144.32.168.80) -- After 9/3/92

	barnacle.erc.clarkson.edu:/pub/cutcp/charon40.zip
	(128.153.28.12) -- This system will be gone after 11/1/92

2. Via Electronic mail from the archive-server@sun.soe.clarkson.edu

	Send  `help' to the archive server to get operating instructions,
	later, ask for this package with the command

		send cutcp charon40.zip

	Be SURE to specify the encoding and packing method you need

3. Via Modem from the `formerly' Clarkson grape BBS

	315-268-6667

	Create yourself an account
	Enter the files section
	`Log' to the tcpip directory
	Set the desired protocol
	get charon40.zip

	** This might change shortly as we move from Waffle BBS to
	   Galacticomm's Major BBS, If it has changed, follow the
	   instructions on the new BBS **

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 92 16:50:27 U
From: "Jerry Segers" <jerry@PeachNet.EDU>
Subject:      Crosstalk

        Reply to:   RE> Crosstalk

>A contractor has just wired our building with 10Base-T to the floors
>from fiber risers. The 10Base-T cable (4 pair of #24) has been wired
>through carrels in the labs alongside unshielded ac power cables. The
>power cables are typical lab use lines (ie: not running heavy machinery)
>and the runs can be as long as 20 feet.

I would not be concerned with the operability of the installation as much as
the safety.  Sliding cables and moving equipment make for frayed cables in the
path and could cause fire or shock hazzards.

If the path is enclosed, I believe you will find that running low voltage
communications cables in the same pathway (Generic conduit, Panduit, Wiremold,
etc ) is in violation of the National Electrical Code and that alone should be
cause for requiring the contractor to replace the cables.

The plan we use for lab installations is to install wiremold along the back
bottom side of the carrels.  The version we use has a split channel with
electrical power wired into one half and data wiring in the other half.  This
keeps the cables up out of the way, provides some shielding for the data and by
grounding the Wiremold itself makes the installation reasonably safe.

Disclamer:  I have no connection to Wiremold I just like their products.

Jerry W. Segers
Director
Regents Telecommunications and Networking
PO box 444
Marietta  GA  30061
Jerry@PeachNet.EDU

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 10:58:12 EDT
From: "John K. Scoggin" <scoggin@delmarva.COM>
Subject:      Help Desk Management System Version4 Available


The Help Desk Management System (HDMS), a database application currently
in production running the corporate help desk at Delmarva Power in
Newark, Delaware, is now available for anonymous FTP on ftp.delmarva.com
(138.39.7.10) as pub/hdms/HDMS.tar.Z.  We also have a mailing list for
the HDMS.  Subscription requests should be sent to
hdms-request@delmarva.com, while postings should be sent to
hdms@delmarva.com.  Local personnel are on this mailing list to answer
questions.

Note that our Internet-link is limited to 14.4 kbps, so (1) be polite
and don't FTP during the middle of the day, and (2) don't expect a speedy
transfer.  The file is about 1.5 Megs compressed, and expands to about
9.5 Megs after uncompressing.  We are in the process of upgrading to a full
56 KBPS on SURAnet Real Soon Now (September 92 hopefully).

The HDMS is an "openly available" (this basically means free, but read
the disclaimer in the package for complete details) application based on
the UNIFY 2000 RDBMS and the ACCELL/SQL application development
environment, both products from UNIFY Corporation.  (Note that these
*must* be purchased to install the HDMS.)

The HDMS has been released previously for UNIFY DBMS and ACCELL IDS
(also products from UNIFY Corporation), but this release represents a
migration to UNIFY 2000 and ACCELL/SQL.  The following notes may be of
interest, especially if you looked at the earlier release of the HDMS:

(1) UNIFY 2000 is a much more robust RDBMS engine than UNIFY DBMS was.
    As a result of this and work done on the scripts, problems such as
    duplicate problem numbers and such have been solved.

(2) There is now a *real* installation guide.  We tested it and were
    able to successfully bring up the database and application from the
    tar file and my directions.  (Note that the installer was *not* the
    person who wrote the installation manual.)

(3) The "prob" program, which is a cornerstone of the Problem Management
	 sub-system of the HDMS, has been *drastically* improved in that it
    has been modularized and "magic numbers" have been removed.  The
    commenting is not perfect, but we are working on that for our own
    benefit, and will make it available after completion.

(4) All of the C programs now have Makefiles.

(5) The documentation (for both users and administrators) has been
    drastically improved.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  John K. Scoggin, Jr.			Email: scoggin@delmarva.com   |
|  Supervisor, Network Operations       Phone: (302) 451-5200         |
|  Delmarva Power & Light Company       Fax:   (302) 451-5321         |
|  500 N. Wakefield Drive                                             |
|  Newark, DE 19714-6066		                              |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 08:08
From: JUNKINS.TIC@commlan.safb.af.mil (Junkins, Douglas A, 2Lt)
Subject:      OSI Campus Network Addressing

I'm new on this mail list so I don't know if this topic has been talked
about lately.

Can anyone offer some helpful tips on setting up addressing on a
campus-size network for the OSI CLNS protocol.  Specifically, if a single
OSI area covers the entire network, can routers still be used to route
the packets within the OSI area?

Thanks for any help you can offer...

Doug Junkins
junkins.tic@commlan.safb.af.mil

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 92 18:43 GMT
From: KEE@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Kagi Engineering Inc, K Nethery,PAS)
Subject:      secure filter multiport hub

3COM sells a hub that filters based upon address. someone out there makes an
ethernet multiport repeater that uses telephone style switching to create
circuits between just the two nodes communicating. It automatically does what
you want.

Kee Nethery
Radiant Enterprises
kee@applelink.apple.com

-------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 23:30:57 EDT
From: <wayne@fac.cabot.nf.ca>
Subject:      CAMPUS ETHERNET CRASHES

I have a campus-wide ethernet that has vaxes, unix workstations, and pcs
connected via thick and thin coax. DECNET, TCPIP, NOVELL, and LAT are the
primary communication software packages.

Has anyone had a problem whereby a LAT terminal server user periodically
gets bumped out of a lat session on a vax to the Local> prompt.

People are saying that I have a cabling/Ethernet configuration problem.
Has anyone experienced this type of problem, and if so, what were the
causes of same ?

Thanks in advance for your response.

****************************************************************************
*Wayne Hann, Manager                   | Tel: (709) 778-2506               *
*Computing Resources                   | Fax: (709) 738-1510               *
*Cabot College of Applied Arts,        |                                   *
 Technology and Continuing Education   |EMAIL: WAYNE@FAC.CABOT.NF.CA       *
*St. John's, Nf, Canada A1C 5P7        |                                   *
****************************************************************************

-------------------------------------------------------


End of BIG-LAN Digest
*********************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU