HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Obituary [Amiga's] in Silicon Valley newspaper
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:44:00 GMT

mjl@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Maurice J. LeBrun) writes:

>How long do most people on a limited budget own their computers?  For me, a
>lifetime of at least 5 years and preferably longer is necessary.  

  I have a related question for you.  What do you do with your
computer after the five years?  
  I'm the opposite of you.  I try to turn over my computer as often as
possible (which usually ends up being every year or so).  Being at a
university (which a lot of us are, yourself included it would seem), I
can do this fairly well since I buy at an educational discount, and
try and sell for not much less than that a year later.
  Of course, I stay in the same line so I can keep all my software
[I wouldn't do this if I had to repurchase all my SW], but it means
I get the latest technology, I'm practically never out of warranty
on my machine, and I get all the advantages (e.g. reliability)
that a new machine offers.
  
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
From: szkola@mp.cs.niu.edu (Szkola Daniel j)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I'm a bit scared...
Keywords: Support commodore a3000 ecs
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:55:20 GMT
Organization: Northern Illinois University

In article <1992Jul29.055722.2738@cs.mun.ca> craigs@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Stace) writes:
>I'm a bit concerned here.  I just sank a sizeable amount of money into an 
>A2000HD (upgraded frommy lowly A1000).
>
>Since I now own an Amiga capable of actually doing stuff, I started reading
>this group, as well as the other Amy groups.  
>
>From the look of postings here, Commodore's still doing its gangbusters job
>of supporting the computer.  If I wasn't already hooked, I don't know if I'd
>have bought the 2000, and instead gone for a 486 fully loaded system.
>
>To cut to the chase, am I going to be left high and dry with no support?  I
>was bitten once (with the abandoned 1000), and I don't care to own yet another
>obsolete machine.
>
>->Stace<-
>-- 
>                   ______   ______   ______   ______   ______
>      _____\      /_____      /     /_____/  /        /_____      /_____
>           /     ______/     /     /     /  /_____   /_____       \
>                        craigs@garfield.cs.mun.ca 

  If you read the magazines, look how many new products come out EVERY
MONTH! The Amiga is far from dead and I smell something good in the
Amiga's future. Have you seen how many print ads CBM is running suddenly?
Guys, this was before Mr. Robinson's article came out too. C= must have
something big coming up to be advertising so heavily. Plus they have been
advertising CDTV on television. I think the next year or so will show
the Amiga is far from dead. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Szkola - Network Operations | What sad times are these when passing 
Northern Illinois University    | ruffians can say 'Nee' at will to old ladies.
szkola@mp.cs.niu.edu            |                        - Eric the Shrubber
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Amiga Future?!?
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:12:09 GMT

Re: explanation of MM/1.

Neat... wonder why PC designers can't show anywhere near as much
imagination at the mid and low ends?

Why is it always someone else?

Thom
From: jprad@faatcrl.UUCP (Jack Radigan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:01:02 GMT
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ

mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:

>What if you are convinced that 4 years of Clinton would be far worse than
>Carter's 4 and Bush's 4 combined?  Don't vote for Clinton is the obvious
>answer.  That's how I feel.  If I don't vote for Bush, which is a definite
>thing if he drops Quayle (spineless move, IMO), I vote libertarian and stay
>away from Clinton - as far away as possible.

  If I was convinced, maybe.  Which is something you failed to do so far. ;-)

  -jack-
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:12:01 GMT
Organization: TAP, NZAmigaUG

Quoted from <mykes.09nb@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> by mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz):

> policy (in case you don't realize it, Bush and his men have guaranteed
> the reduction of nuclear weapons in the world by 80% by the year 2000).

    I'd prefer Bush to win, and I'm not even in the US... :) I don't
    know about the rest of the politicians involved, but from what
    they've shown here of Clinton, and what Bush has done for the last
    N years...

> Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
--
*** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG.        jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: Silly columnists
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:18:15 GMT

In article <62815@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>cashes? tellers?
>
>Is a computer like a bank system? 

   Well, the Amiga has a Commodities Exchange... (sorry, I couldn't resist! :-)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Amigas are cool
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 19:07:44 GMT

Just curious... is AmigaDOS 2.0 a 32 bit OS?

Thom
From: tony@ais.org (Tony Poole)
Subject: Re: Silly columnists
Organization: UMCC
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:21:00 GMT

parris@cs.scarolina.edu (Barry Parris) writes:

>tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes:

>>TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:

>>>Okay. Now I understand that computers use 1's and 0's to represent
>>>data, but how do they get the colors on the screen?

>>Why that's simple.  

>>They use the instruction set that communicates with the machine code to send
>>the data to the cashes, wherein the teller sends it to the screen.
>                                     ^^^^^^

>Ohhhh!  That explains banks of RAM.  And the cash(es).

Yes, exactly.  However, one additional point should be noted.

Most Amiga people know this, and realize it's a problem.  The tellers in an
Amiga are generally lazy, relative to PC tellers.  It's true.

The reason is that tellers in PC's have to run back and forth between the
vault and the ram MUCH more often than in an Amiga.  You see, the teller in
a PC has to run from the vault to the ram, run all the way back to the
vault, throw the lever to switch ram banks, run all the way back to the
ram, etc.....

On the Amiga, the tellers take just one load, and they're done.  

This is why PC tellers often complain of carpal bus syndrome - injuries
caused by repetitive bus motion.


-- 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Poole                       tony@umcc.ais.org * tony@irie.ais.org 
Traverse City, MI USA          tony@cherry1.trv.mi.us * tony@cherry1.UUCP
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anybody care to crush this Falcon Rumor?
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (beta) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:23:37 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

In article <1992Jul30.013852.25415@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
> In article <1992Jul29.194504.13920@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aa399@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Len Stys) writes:
> >
> >In a previous article, doiron@starpt.UUCP (Glenn Doiron) says:
> >>
> >>>Please respond with some information about this Falcon.
> >>
> >>It doesn't exist.
> >
> >Boy will you be surprised!!! :)
>
> Even if the Falcon did exist, who would want to buy one?  The specs
> may be okay, but I wouldn't touch anything from Atari.  Any company
> with worse management and product support than Commodore leaves
> a lot to be desired.  Certainly it isn't much point raving about the
> Falcon in this newsgroup.  The majority of Amiga owners are sick of
> C= and wouldn't consider buying a machine that is likely to be supported
> even less!
>

Not many more people are going to want new Amigas, either.  Especially
those who don't already own one.

> --
> Colin Adams       Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
>               "Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate."

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tony@ais.org (Tony Poole)
Subject: Re: Commodore's Reply
Keywords: C=
Organization: UMCC
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:50:48 GMT

mac1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mubashir Cheema) writes:

>   It should have read

>*    This is the most depressing time in the history of Commodore
>     and Amiga computing

>  Now honestly how many people disagree and really find it
>  MOST EXCITING time for an Amigan ?

I do, seriously.  At least three of my friends do.  Ones getting a 68030
board for his 2000.  He's really into his Amiga.

I love mine.  Just the things I've been able to do software-wise in the last
6 months or so can justify this feeling.

Stop reading c.s.a.advocacy.....it's deluding your thoughts.

-- 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Poole                       tony@umcc.ais.org * tony@irie.ais.org 
Traverse City, MI USA          tony@cherry1.trv.mi.us * tony@cherry1.UUCP
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 27 Jul 92 06:46:18 GMT

TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:

>Before you throw rocks at Dell, keep in mind they spend about
>3% on This from an interview with Michael Dell in a 
>recent Upside magazine.

  3% is still miniscule compared with companies like Apple, 
IBM, Sun (i.e. companies who are really innovative) who
spend at least 8% on R&D.

>I thought I'd read CBM spends 2.2% on R&D.

  For which you should throw rocks at CBM.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: DEC/Commodore Agreement
Date: 21 Jul 92 08:38:05 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <1992Jul20.145823.24015@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> chuj@horton.Colorado.EDU (CHU JEFFREY) writes:
 >>he visited a friend of his (I  know, I know, this sounds far fetched, but
 >>it will become clear) at work. His friend worked for DEC. Now, he said
 >>that the dude was working on an Clayton's AMiga 3000, that is, an Amiga 3000
 >>with a DEC badge on it. 
 >
 >I haven't seen this yet, but DEC already has PCs with DEC badges on them.
 >The lower end machines have the same cases as the Tandy PCs.

And DEC Germany uses and sells PCs that remind me very much of Commodore PCs
:-)

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
				   or  peterk@public.sub.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 22:40:05 GMT

In <1992Jul26.194630.13666@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> chuj@horton.Colorado.EDU (CHU JEFFREY) writes:
>I agree on your 286 comparisons, but according to the ads, they indicated
>that the 030-16Mhz was comparable to a 386SX20 running windows 3.0.
>(lets see, LANDMARKS says 16 Mhz for this AT286-12, and then 28Mhz for
> this 386SX20)

Well, that is a problem if one relies on the LANDMARK benchmark. This test
does largely show the internal speed of a processor (by timing lots
of integer multiplications) and the results aren't affected that much
by the bottleneck of the 16bit data bus.

Of course you could cripple the 68020/68030 with 16bit memory but any
useful 68030 accelerator for the Amiga (or the A3000/16) uses 32bit
memory.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: The CBM Roller Coaster
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (beta) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:59:04 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

Being a CBM groupie is like riding a wild roller coaster.

And I just had a big plate of spaghetti (GROSSSSS me out :)

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: 1040STe for sale in several music stores... $299 list.
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 06:47:31 GMT

The STe is being marketed at one store for $299 + $99 for Dr. T's 
program...

Thom
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amigas are cool
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:22:57 GMT
Reply-To: djohnson@ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>Just curious... is AmigaDOS 2.0 a 32 bit OS?

Just curious...  I've only got a MS in computer science so before
I finish my PhD, could someone tell me what a 32 bit OS is?
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
  - I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A4000 article
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:05:54 GMT
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.

What sort of idiot magazines are so clueless and unconnected that they
can take an article the likes of Skip's seriously?  I mean, I thought
most Amiga users, esp. in the U.S. were so eager for new info, and os
connected through various mediums, that they'd immediately recognize it
as BS... espec. journalists and publishers... geez, must be lots of
egg on face going around

Thom

Actually, it is pretty amazing that CBM manages to keep anything secret...
maybe (depressing thought) it is because there is nothing to keep secret.
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC's are *total* kludges
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:25:12 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) writes:
: In article <1992Jul16.173410.23840@klaava.Helsinki.FI> lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad) writes:

: >Jarkko Lindblad
: 
: A friend and I drank a carton of beer between us on Saturday night 
: (relieving stress after seminars).  Do we qualify for the 
: JLBC (Jarkko Lindblad Beer Club) yet?  :-)  A much more worthy group
: than the TKKC I feel.

Yes, it is much more worthy group than the TKKC, but it's also much
harder to get into it. Even as have no idea how much a carton is, I
can say that it's not enough - the easiest way to get into JLBC is to
gain extra weight of around 50 lb in something like six months by
drinking lot's of beer. I managed to fatten myself by such amount is
three months... (fortunately I have not gained even a pound in the
last year and still only weight 200 lb's instead of 400...:)

--
Jarkko Lindblad
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Commodore and the Osborne Syndrome
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:48:07 GMT
X-Posted-From: connection.prospect.com
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>
>: Oh, this is BS.  How much would it slow down the machine?  5%?  You wouldn't
>: even notice that.  A slightly faster CPU would take care of the difference
>: and then some.
>
>Memory protection can and generally DOES slow it down a HELL of a lot
>more than 5%.  Try 58%.  That was using my friend's MP-added CD-RTOS
>system.  That gives it MP and resource tracking.  And it was next
>to unusable.  Sure, it had it, but it was next to unusable.  58,
>Jerry.  That's enough to go from productive to unproductive in 13.8
>seconds.
>

This is INSANE.  What CPU was this implemented on?  Did it have an on-board
MMU like the 386 or the 68030?  There's NO WAY those CPUs would experience
that much of a slowdown.  I have a 386, and DOS applications under OS/2
(full MP) don't run noticeably slower than they do under native DOS.
Benchmarks indicate a slowdown of a few percent, no more.

>
>And, might I add, he's a DAMN good programmer.  So I don't think it
>was the code.
>

It could be some incredibly bad hardware, too.  We were talking about adding
MP to the Amiga, which as a 68030.

>
>: Oh please.  Name an OS which has been implemented both with and without
>: memory protection on the same machine.  That would be the only way to make a
>:fair comparison.  I'll tell you one thing, though -- SVR4 runs a hell of a lot
>: faster on my 386 than did Minix, and guess which one has MP?
>
>I'll name 2 68000 ones that I've seen with MP.  The first was OS/9,
>the second CD-RTOS.  And guess what...  BOTH slow down to an
>incredible degree when they ran with MP up.
>

Interesting.  And just how did you implement MP on a 68000?  If this was
on a 68030 or a 68020+PMMU, maybe this indicates a flaw in the 68K line,
because there sure isn't that much of a slowdown on the x86!

>
>Greg
>
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Atari is irrelevant.  Falcon is irrelevant.  You will be as
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 15:36:28 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <33044@cbmvax.commodore.com> <144sr9INN3b8@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>
  <1992Jul16.223945.814@news.iastate.edu> <mykes.09b4@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>
  <33217@cbmvax.commodore.com> <mykes.09p8@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>

The mandril demo did *not* hang the 1000...it was just that the close
gadget wasn't actually the close gadget.

You had to hunt for the secret way to end the mandril demo.

BTW, demos wuz all we had back in the bad old days.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:57:48 EST
Organization: Wright State University 

In article <62536@cup.portal.com>, TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
> Point of reference, a DELL 386DX-33 with 4MB ram, 80M HD, supervga and
> monitor, DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1, 24 hour on-site service for 1 year
> is $1550.
>
	You know, I'm curious.  How do these people sell so cheap?
	Who's doing advanced development on the PC Clone architecture?
	Who's bringing advanced integration of the various subsystems
	to the PC?  Somebody has to pay for this.  The PC architecture
	is eventually going to fragment and die if no one carries the 
	advanced developement "ball", IMHO.  Although it seems to be 
	going OK at the present.  BTW, I use a PC and a Sun 4 at work
	and I use an Amiga at home.  
 
Fred Heitkamp                  *** No Sig yet ***
From: billc@popsicle.UUCP (William J. Coldwell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Distribution of Products.....
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:59:06 GMT
Reply-To: billc@cryo.rain.com
Organization: Cryogenic Software - Portland, OR
X-PHRASEMONGER: Somewhat Nice (V3.0 Beta)
X-SIGNATUREMONGER: Nice (V1.1)
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <Paula_Lieberman.069e@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman) writes:
[...]
> You might be thinking of Progressive Peripherals, which is alleged
> to have not treated some of the developers whose products it marketed well
> [there was a discussion some months ago in comp.sys.amiga.graphics, I
> think, and I think further that it was William Coldwell posting the
> relevant articles].

Yeh, well contrary to popular rumors, I did NOT fly out to Denver and burn
the place down... and I did NOT send Steve Spring that bag of marshmallows.

--
  William 'llib' Coldwell  IRC: #amiga, Cryo               PORTAL: Cryogenic
  Amiga Attitude Adjuster  BBS: CryoCafe (503)257-4823     BMS: cryo.RAIN.COM
  Cryogenic Software       UUCP:uunet!cryo!popsicle!billc  ROCK: ON
My comments are freely distributable: Feel free to agree with 'em and pass on.
From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: DEC/Commodore Agreement
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:52:33 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <kehlet.05od@kehlet.adsp.sub.org>, kehlet@kehlet.adsp.sub.org (Jesper Kehlet) writes:
> W/NT has been announced as a very efficient enhancement of Windows/386,
> that should support OS/2 specific applications and incorporate the best
> from the UNIX world.
> 
> Now, as I see it, 386-enhancments and OS/2 compatibility most certainly
> requires an Intel-processor, still MS claiming it to be platform
> independent!  In their dreams, I say!!!

Haven't they already demonstrated a beta version on a DEC Alpha workstation?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------