From: downey@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Celts-Christianity-Catholicism
Date: 10 Oct 92 01:29:02 GMT
Organization: NIST


From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
>There was no such thing as "the Celtic Church" in the sense of
>a church formally set up in opposition to the rest of European
>Christianity. Although the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain
>left the Irish Church with few links with Europe, they
>certainly did not regard themselves as anything separate from
>universal Christianity.

Well, if you are referring to the "Celtic Church" before the coming
of Christianity, I say it definitely existed - What about the
Druids?  If I have misunderstood and you are talking about
the "Celtic Church" after the introduction of Christianity, then
I would say it was a "different" kind - a sort of mingling of
the old and the new - pagan + Christianity.  This is termed
"Celtic Christianity" and in fact there is a book by that name.
I have it but at the moment I have loaned it out.  Additionally,
I think the book "Celtic Consciousness" also makes some references
to Celtic Christianity.  The point I'm trying to make is  - there
was a transition period.  As to the universality of Christianity,
certainly it has basic mores, however, as it has spread, it has
been adapted and integrated into the customs of the people who
adopted it.  Just note all the different sects and denominations.

>Mr.Marquie describes himself as a "Wiccan", which he seems to
>think for some reason has something to do with the
>pre-Christian religion of Ireland. Furthermore, he is under the
>impression that this religion was ended involuntarily by means
>of terror. On both of these he is wrong. I am not sure what he
>means by "present day Celtica", but if he supposes Ireland is
>full of RC-hating practicing pagans, I think he is wrong.

Throughout history, pagans (or anyone who did not agree with the
"religion" of whoever was in power) have at times been persecuted.
Did this happen in Ireland?  I'm not sure.  Anyone?

>I rather think that the argument that pre-Christian Ireland had
>abortion clinics on every corner, feminist awareness weekends,
>save the whales rallies, and anything else that is politically
>correct, is a bit silly. I don't think "the Celtic Church"
>inasmuch as such a thing could ever be said to have existed
>could really be held up as a model of 20th century political
>correctness.

Matthew, oh Matthew, your sarcasm is showing. :-)  The above
statements take previous statements made by me and others to the
extreme.  I merely pointed out that in terms of Brehon laws,
women had certain rights that they don't have in present-day
Ireland.  I don't remember anyone holding up the "Celtic Church"
as a model of 20th century political correctness.  I think you
missed the point.  By the way, I would be happy to invite you
to a feminist awareness weekend, are you by chance coming to the
Washington, D.C. area soon?  :-)

>As for the general issue, there are arguments against abortion
>and divorce which were accepted in referendums on the subjects
>in the Republic of Ireland. It would be wrong to suppose that
>the only reason against them is that "the pope says so",
>although British anti-Catholicism and anti_Irishness would like
>to think the Irish are all puppets of His Holiness.

Wrong!!!  The pope (Church) holds enormous power.  For centuries, the
Catholic church has socially conditioned people to believe that if
they go against the Church, they will be damned for all eternity.
It's not a matter of just making a choice when a person is in
effect "brainwashed" from the cradle.  There are all kinds of
oppression.  When one begins to question what one has been taught
from the beginning, it is a difficult task to break away from the
mold.  Many social and religious institutions exist because the
people in power have convinced the masses it is in their best
interest to follow the teachings of that institution.  I don't mean
to single out the Catholic church, is just happens to be the topic.
I believe there are many other instituions in which the leaders
abuse their power thereby exploiting the members.  Keep in mind that
I am speaking of an institution and not specific individuals.  I'm
sure there are "good" people in the Catholic church, I just don't
believe in its principles.

Laura

(Matthew, I do so enjoy our little debates.  :-) )

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic