HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
Date: 30 Jul 92 19:57:30 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Jul29.061841.16676@highlite.uucp> yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
|In article <1992Jul27.022925.866@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> kevin@sherman.pas.rochester.edu (kevin mcfadden) writes:
|>	I would say that Theoden, Aragorn, and Saruman were some of the 
|>characters that actually were somewhat developed.
|
|Our definitions of "developed" must vary.  Tolkien does give a few
|of his characters some nominal complexity, but I don't find any
|of them credible.  
|
|Can you identify with, for example, Aragorn?

You're not *supposed* to identify with Aragorn.  He represents the last
echo of what humanity was *meant* to be in our fallen world.  He is,
after all, part *elf* (in fact it is made clear that by some freak of
inheritence he is effectively half elf).

|...  Aragorn isn't biologically human -
|he's high-fantasy man.  He doesn't want power, money, sex, respect,
|fast cars or fine wine; he wants to regain the lost kingdoms of his
|forefathers and bring glorious harmony to all Middle-Earth, etc, etc
|- and precious little else.  If this ain't one-dimensional I haven't
|a clue what is.

I think you missed part of his character.  He was smitten by Arwen, and
not, I believe, simply for the restoration of the Numenorean lineage.
That seems like a little sex-drive to me.

And, I think he had more desire for respect than you noticed.  He had
just learned not to expect it, so he made do without.  (Remember his
comment to Frodo about wanting to be trusted for himself?)

|As I said before, this is entirely par-for-the-course in high
|fantasy; real characters would only muck up the tale.  And that's
|why you can't condemn Eddings for his mediocre characterization.
|
|In fact, I think one reason I loathe Eddings so much is that, unlike
|Tolkien, he actually tries to develop his characters.  The passing
|success he achieves doesn't fit in the high-fantasy genre he's imitating,
|and breaks the spell that Tolkien et al are so successful with.

But he is not *imitating*, he is *caricaturing*.  Unlike Tolkien, he
does not take the story, or the characters, seriously.  It is all a big
rambunctious lark.
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: List of voters in ESF award so far
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:14:36 GMT

In article <e8P7024M1bgV01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) writes:
>I got the stories, read them, and didn't vote. Many of the stories didn't
>seem to me to be science fiction, and none of them jumped out and grabbed
>me as being worthy of a Hugo. They were all *good* stories, but none of them
>were great. I suppose I could vote "No Award" and have done with it.

Without trying to slight the stories this year, this indicates why
No Award has become a meaningless choice pretty much on the Hugos.
It just doesn't get ranked by people very much.  Many of the ballots
sent in do not rank No Award -- very few rank it first.

While I have to give up on getting this award to be really broadly
voted this first year, I still welcome all ballots, including
those with just "No Award" on them.

And, while I was hoping we would see lots of full ballots because
our voters here have access to all the stories, I realize that it
is hard and confusing to have to rank 7 different stories.  So
ballots with just the #1 position filled are still acceptable,
though it's nice to rank and least 2 or 3 if you can.

I will, if people are interested, post the ballots (with names removed,
of course) for those who want to do their own analysis.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Melanin on Covers (was Re: Errors on Covers)
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:16:52 GMT

You can't just blame the distributors and buyers.  The editors who
tell the artists to paint black characters with a white brush haven't
gone so far, in most cases, to ask the distributors if they won't buy
a particular book with that particular cover.  They're assuming, based
in part on past experience.   Which means it can never change if you
always work from fear of lost sales.

Oddly enough, what's in the books is of course usually far more
offensive to those types.  But they don't read them, so it's safe.

However, the editors could simply take another tack.  Rather than
make a wrong cover they could just not put the protagonist on the cover.
Do the usual space-ships etc.  What's on the cover of "Speaker for the
Dead?"  Does it have anything to do with the book?  And this was a super-major
book whose predecessor had one the Hugo and Nebula, from a major author.

If you can do this, there's not as much excuse for a white Friday.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
From: flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Name of Book about Prison Planet
Date: 29 Jul 92 01:11:09 GMT

Laura L. Walsh:
> I am trying to remember the title and author of
> a book about a planet where criminals were taken
> and just left with a minimum of survival supplies.
> It dealt with the development of law.

book:
 title: Infinity Hold
 author: Barry B. Longyear (1942-)
 copyright: 1989
--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: young@elec.uq.oz.au (Steven Young)
Subject: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"
Summary: Comments on the book, Other work by Daniel Keyes?
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:26:50 GMT

Just re-read Daniel Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon" (1959?).
(Do you hate 'Just read ..., and thought it was brilliant' posts?  Sorry)

I can remember reading it years ago, but I think I read a condensed
(short story/novella) version.  Could this be true?  The novel was much
more satisfying.

For those who don't know the novel, it is about an intelligence
enhancement experiment from the point of view of the subject of the
experiment, who is intellectually retarded.  The writing progresses
from the simplistic thoughts of Charlie Gordon as moron to 
Charlie Gordon as genius.

Real question is who is Daniel Keyes and what does/did he do
professionally apart from write sf?  The book (and another I
read ages ago on a multiple personality disorder case.  What was the
title???) seemed very insightful from a psychologist/psychiatrist
point of view, and from an academic research point of view.
(Some brilliant subtext from the research point of view.)

The other question is: What else has Daniel Keyes written?

Thanks for any replies,

Steven Young
--
Steven Young, (young@s2.elec.uq.oz.au) 
Dept of Electrical Engineering, University of Queensland. AUSTRALIA  4072.
Ph: 61+7 365 3564       FAX: 61+7 365 4999
All the electrons used in this message have been recycled.
From: jsinger@banach.WPI.EDU (Joel Singer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Date: 26 Jul 92 18:41:13 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

Hmmm.  Yes, this master's descendants _would_ fight among themselves.  Someone
does always cheat, that's true.  But a long fluctuation in the cycle is no 
joke.  Surely a long period of peace and stability would give them time to 
come up with some other solution.  A better method of genetically controlling
the population, perhaps.  Maybe forcing their own evolution to a state where 
they can cooperate and control their own breeding.  Maybe a technological
solution of sorts--oh, hell, I don't know, a new interstellar drive based on
different principles?  Breaking apart their gas giant with planet-cracking
bombs in order to generate new living space?  Building themselves a ringworld?
A dyson-sphere?  Who knows?  But a period of stability would give them the
_opportunity_.....

Now, if I could jump into the jump-point discussion for a moment, please:
I don't know if it was explicitly mentioned in the book, but don't you need a
ton of equipment and highly-trained personnel to effect a Jump?  If that's the
case, wasting it on a few tons of rock or explosives would be highly wasteful.
I also vaguely recall that the jump-points have a large enough margin of error
that blockading one would be prohibitively expensive--except, of course, if 
said jump-point emerges you near the core of a red giant star.  Floating 
asteroids ("caltrops(!)") in the vicinity might work, though.  Emerging into
the same space as a good-sized asteroid ought to produce a sizeable explosion.

*  Teddy Bear  *			[jsinger@jarthur.claremont.edu]
*  Harvey Mudd College  *
    "This is like juggling seven Faberge eggs in variable gravity."
   (You've never heard of Harvey Mudd?  Think CalTech, but better...)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: Re: Rewarding the also-rans in the Hugos
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:15:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.074557.27313@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:

>Does somebody have a complete summary of Hugo voting?  In particular,
>a list of stories that came 2nd, or a close 3rd, particularly in
>years when the #1 story was particularly dominant.   (After all,
>"I lost to Neuromancer" isn't a bad epitath.)

I can think of a *lot* of things I'd rather see on my grave. . .


>If we took that list we could hold our own vote.  Probably the
>best 2 or 3 of the Hugo also-rans would be novels that themselves
>deserve the recognition of history.

On the short story front, there were a few volumes of an anthology series called
WHAT IF?, edited by Richard A. Lupoff, which was one short fiction nominee that 
*didn't* win but maybe should have, as per Dick's opinion.  (Dick wanted to call
the books THE HUGO LOSERS, but the publisher wouldn't bite. . .)

Perhaps someone could do an annual "twenty (or twentyfive, or thirty) year 
retrospective."  Vote from scratch, ignore the results of previous nominating 
rounds entirely.  Call 'em the "Lazarus" awards, for books and stories that have
demonstrated longevity. . . ?


		He's got a mask that's black and white
		  Mine's just black but that's all right
		In silence and cunning he plies his trade
		  I ply mine in silence and shade
		[. . .]
		In the heart of the city it's murder time
		  It ain't no crime to kill a mime
			-- "Killing a Mime" by Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mwiz@mpd.tandem.com (Marc Wiz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gerrold
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:23:17 GMT
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX

In article <3117@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek) writes:
>
>The NEXT (not the last) is slated to be released Jan '93.  This is according
>to the Bantam Books SF Publicist.  It will be called A Season for Slaughter.
>The next is, so far, untitled.  The sixth is supposedly the last.  There
>is, according to Gerrold, a definate resolution.

Minor spoiler follows:

It's going to be rather interesting how it is resolved since in one of
the books it was mentioned that it was estimated anywhere from ~10-300
years to fight the Chtorr.

It will be interesting to what Gerrold does.  I would have liked to
see it take a couple of hundred years or barring that have humanity
be forced to develop interstellar travel and abandon the planet.

Marc
-- 
Marc Wiz			Yes that really is my last name.
MaBell:				(512)244-8780
Internet:			mwiz@mpd.tandem.com
The views expressed are my own.  Mine all mine!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jsinger@banach.WPI.EDU (Joel Singer)
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:01:28 GMT

Actually, it's tough to tell from the original book how much control an 
individual master has--we never net any "in the flesh," so to speak, that I
can recall.  But evidently, at some point in the history of the Mote, a 
powerful Emperor/Emperess managed to institute the birth control scheme on one
continent.  It survived until all the other continents, bulging with population
pressure of course, ganged up on her.  We don't have enough details to know if
it would work on a planetary scale (that's what the time machine inventor was
trying to do); but it seems plausible.

Even if it would only delay the cycles for a few generations, that might be
enough for the combined intelligence of the Moties to figure some way out of
their prison.  The head-master just has to take away their predisposed fatalism
and intentness on the next collapse.

*  Teddy Bear  *			[jsinger@jarthur.claremont.edu]
*  Harvey Mudd College  *
    "This is like juggling seven Faberge eggs in variable gravity."
   (You've never heard of Harvey Mudd?  Think CalTech, but better...)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: Gibson's _agrippa_: Not A Hoax
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:48:09 GMT

>In article <711701461.F00004@tdkt.kksys.com>, Joel.Rosenberg@f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>> You're wrong; the term was invented by Bruce Bethke for the story of the 
>> same name, which appeared in print before anybody applied it to Gibson and 
>> his coterie -- a fact which irritates the cyberminorpunkies to no end.

The word comes from that story.  That story was not, however, what we
refer to as cyberpunk -- high tech, low rent dystopia with drugs,
implants and lots of computers.

The concept of cyberspace was first developed, as far as I know, in
the Doctor Who episode, "The Deadly Assassin" in 1976, and as a written
SF treatment by Vernor Vinge in his superb novella "True Names."

Cyberpunk, as it is called today, came from the marriage of cyberspace
and dystopianism.  Neuromancer was certainly one of the earliest, and by
most accounts still the best, and as such Gibson is called the father
of cyberpunk.    Not many people get their first novel to win the Hugo and
Nebula.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
From: dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gibson's _agrippa_: Not A Hoax
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:59:25 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.

In article <1992Jul21.184809.24166@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
|The concept of cyberspace was first developed, as far as I know, in
|the Doctor Who episode, "The Deadly Assassin" in 1976, and as a written
|SF treatment by Vernor Vinge in his superb novella "True Names."
|

	I think John M. Ford beat Dr. Who to it, with WEB OF ANGELS.


dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
From: WSHERMAN@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Moorcock's Names
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:59:23 GMT

David Ban-Ami asked about the pronunciation of names in Moorcock's Swords
trilogy.
     I have been told that Moorcock mostly gets his names from old Gaelic or
Welsch or some other language of the British Isles.  If I recall what a friend
of mine who knew a lot about languages once told me, the w in kwll is supposed
to be pronounced like oo, thus the name is similar to the word 'cool'.
     Apparently, many of Moorcock's names are not original - Arioch is a
borrowed name also, though I couldn't tell you where from.

     Sorry for the vagueness of the post, it's been about 10 years since I read
that stuff.

Bill Sherman
Dept. of Physics
University of Pennsylvania
sherman@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: bkpipa@eos.ncsu.edu (BRIAN KEITH PIPA)
Subject: Tad Williams
Originator: bkpipa@c00547-106ps.eos.ncsu.edu
Keywords: Tad Williams
Reply-To: bkpipa@eos.ncsu.edu (BRIAN KEITH PIPA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:31:09 GMT


Please forgive me if this is the wrong group
to post this to, but it seems like a likely place.


I read Tad Williams' book The Dragonbone Chair
a few months ago and loved it (except for the fact that
it ended right in the middle of an exciting scene).
Then I went out and found the sequel The Stone of
Farewell and read that and also loved it (it too
ends in the middle of a scene).

2 questions:

	1) What is the name of the third book in the trilogy, and is
		it out yet? (I know, technically that's 2 questions)

	2) Why can't he end each book at a point that is not right
	 	in the middle of a scene (I think TDC ended right in
		the middle of a battle with an ice dragon)?

Please e-mail replies to me,
as I don't read the news that often.

Thanks
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   bkpipa@eos.ncsu.edu         |      He is one of those people who          |
   North Carolina State        |        would be greatly improved by         |
   University - Raleigh        |          death. - H.H. Munro 1870 -1916     |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: u894485@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Trebreh Divad)
Subject: Paratwa
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:21:53 GMT



In rec.arts.sf.written you write:

>Does anyone know the story on Christopher Hinz's Paratwa Saga?  I read the 
>first book Liege_Killer 5 or 6 years back and since then was checking for a
>sequel every time I entered a book store.  I only recently discovered that there
>was a sequel and when I ordered the book from Encore books, I find out that
>the one I ordered was the THIRD book.  The second one, Ash_Ock isn't even
>in print anymore I think.  For such an awesome beginning the series died
>incredibly fast...any clue why?

><--The-Dark-Elf-<<<

That's strange! I bought a copy of Ask_ock and Paratwa (?) late last year.
Their publishing date was specified as 1990... (Although this was in Australia)
My copies were published by Mandarin.
I could find out more if you like...

(quite a good series as well...)


...David Herbert
u894485@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au
University of Tasmania
From: ST401844@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Stewart Crall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: da Vinci
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:38:18 GMT


Does anybody know anything about a book called the "Deluge" reputed to
be by Leonardo da Vinci?  Is is really by da Vinci, or did someone else
write it and then use his name?

In general it is not very good, except for some incredible descriptions
of the city and the disaster and the mountain so visually
realized as to actually produce images in my mind, which is a very rare
occurence for me nowadays.

My guess is that some scholar found these descriptions, and tried to
unite them into one story, but I would very much like to know the real
story.

I'm posting to this list because the book follows the form of many
science fiction stories dealing with natural disasters, and also
that it deals with a made-up society very much like the societies
often seen in science fiction.   This almost leads me to
imagine it might have been ghosted by an ordinary science fiction
author.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: nudd@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Nai Ying Kwok)
Subject: Re: BOOKS BY DAVID EDDINGS
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 05:02:19 GMT

ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (E. Chris Garrison) writes:
: In article <10726446.92.711856335@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au> you write:
: >>>    Very good.  I find that sums up all the books Mr Eddings has written 
: >>>extremely well.  Do you want to comment on the crap he vomits up too?
: 
: >>Actually, I found David Eddings' works to be entertaining and
: >>interesting, even if they are not masterworks of fiction.  I was
: >>particularly fond of the characters and cultures he created in
: >>the _Belgariad_ and the _Mallorean_.  
: >
: >>I think Mr. Eddings is a better craftsman of fantasy than many of 
: >>the current authors of the genre, and viewed his series as light
: >>fantasy.  
: >
: >>I realize that you are free to express your opinions, no matter
: >>how negative, "Halycon", but please don't squelch other peoples'
: >>opinions, either. 
: >
: >   Pah!  I would have a lot more respect for people's opinions if there was 
: >any intelligence in them.  From experience, the people I know reading 
: 
: Sir, I understand that you don't like Eddings.  You made that
: graphically clear with your first outburst.  
: 
: My opinion is not based on what a masterpiece of prose Eddings' books
: are:  I don't read fantasy for artful construction any more than I
: read the comics for intellectual stimulation.  I read fantasy
: for escape.  Eddings provided a comfortable place to hang out,
: and sure, a lot of it was merely clever patter, but I found it
: enjoyable.  

Forgive me for intruding on your private conversation, but I resent your
insinuation that anything in the fantasy genre is nothing more than
light reading. How would you explain Rushdie's _Grimus_, or the _Satanic
Versus_, for that matter? As for comics not being "intellectual",
perhaps you should reads stuff from pioneering authors like Dave Sim, or
Neil Gaiman on a good day. How about clearly brilliant work like V for
Vendetta? Please don't let your prejudices distort your judgement of
what is, and is not, good literature.

For the record, I did read David Eddings and I even liked the first five
book _initially_. In my defence, however, is the fact that I was a mere
youth in those days, and as one grows more discerning and reads better
literature, one is better able to see the painful shortcomings in the
books by Eddings.

What a pity that his talent didn't grow a a pace commensurate with that of his
readers' development.

: 
: 
: ------
: E. Chris Garrison
: Technical Support
: ericg@ucs.indiana.edu

Nudd
From: msk@betelgeuse.eca (Michael Kerstetter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: "Buffalo" is SF?  /Hugo nominated/ SF?!
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:11:54 GMT
Reply-To: msk@betelgeuse.eca
Organization: Sun Microsystems


In article 20522@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>I just finished reading "Buffalo", by John Kessel.  (Thanks to
>Brad Templeton, btw).
>
>I am left with two questions:
>
>1. What exactly about this story makes it SF?  Except for the use of
>   H. G. Wells as a character, I saw no SFnal elements at all.
>
>2. I found this story disappointing.  Kessel does a reasonable job
>   of portraying believable characters, but... what's the point?
>

I'm afraid I have to second Dave's opinions in this case.  Furthermore,
I felt that Willis' "In the Late Cretaceous" also lacked any SF/F
elements.  For this reason (and not because I didn't enjoy the stories)
I placed "No Award" ahead of these two when I cast my Electronic Poll
ballot.

Mike Kerstetter
msk@espresso.boeing.com
From: leue@crd.ge.com (Bill Leue)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon"
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:36:02 GMT
Reply-To: leue@crd.ge.com
Organization: General Electric Research & Development

>
>Yes, it was first published (in _Astounding_? One of those 60's mags,
>anyway) as a novella. The novel came later.
>

	I think it was actually published in Fantasy & Science Fiction,
	if memory serves me right, not Astounding.

-Bill Leue
leue@crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written