From: lbs@tkmhp4.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 00:11:33 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.160713.3085@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.074155.13058@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>>In article <1992Oct13.210624.23480@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>>In article <92847@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>>>>Ms. Dawidowicz was far too erudite a scholar not to know that the feuds 
>>>>between the nobility, royal and ducal powers were inherent to each and 
>>>>every European state, be it England, France or Germany and the reasons for 
>>>>Poland's decline and loss of independence (after eight centuries of 
>>>>existence - so much for the unability of governing herself) 
>
>>>You're telling me that Poland *didn't* have crises of governance all
>>								    ^^^
>>>the time, for the very reasons Dawidowicz gives (but you don't see fit
>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>to quote)?
>
>[...]
>As for "all the time," it's an English idiom, and need not mean
>"continuously."  It can also mean "again and again," which, in the 
>context of 800 years of history, is what it clearly *does* mean.


 You might be better in writing certain kind of poetry, where
you can define your own language.

>But I apologize for what was obviously unclear.  
>
>>Similarly, the Soviet Union attacked from the East on 17 September  1939
>>"to protect the rights of minorities in Poland". 
>
>Again, stopputting words in my mouth.  

 The quote above refers to claims made by the Soviets after
the 17 Sept. invasion. 

>> Poland made a serious attempt at a democratic system (point 1 above) 
>>at the time when elsewhere in Europe you had as undemocratic kingdoms 
>>(point 2 above) as you could only imagine.
>So what?  The point is that thte noble experiment didn't work very well.

 We are talking about times several hundred years ago. Where
did democracy work at that time? 

>>>[...] 
>>>Well, we've seen what your eyes are worth, I'm afraid. Or perhaps
>>>its the tinted glasses -- in any case, your bleeding chunks of
>>>text have little to do with Dawidowicz's argument.
>
>> What do you try to achieve by writing the passages like the three lines
>>above? Why do you insist on being arrogant and trying to insult
>>others? Seriously, what are you trying to achieve with your
>>"bleeding chunks of texts"? There are people with better manners
>>and better arguments than yours and they do not resort to insults.
>
>"bleeding chunks" is a well-known English idiom for things ripped out  
>of context, such as you did with Dawidowicz's words.  (I believe
>John Ruskin is the source of the expression.)  No insult intended,
>but then, you seem to be a master at seeking out insult.

 No comment.

>Believe me, if I wished to insult you, you'd know it.

 ????????

>[...]
>> But you made an error earlier by referring to "Polish historians".
>>That phrase contains a sweeping generalization. Using it
>
>Look, you're just going to have to live with the fact that some people
>do not write to your standards of political correctness.  "Polish
>historians," the way most English-speakers read it, does not mean "ALL
	      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Polish historians."  If you insist on reading it that way, go

 According to your understanding, what does it mean?

>ahead, but be advised that it'srarely meant that way.
			    ^^^^^^^^^^
 Look who is talking. Can you translate that? :-)

>Obviously, yes.  As I've noted here, there's very little respect
>for context around here; sentences can be ripped out of their
>surroundings and attacked as though they had been written in vacuo;
>and even when a context *is* given, it must be hammered home a 
>hundred times, and attached to every sentence that could possibly
>be construed otherwise without  six relative clauses to nail
>its meaning down.  

 Don't pretend to be so naive. Words do matter. 

>[...]
>>>What *IS* this shit?  Dawidowicz nowhere espouses collective guilt as
>
>> Stop insulting others, Roger. 
>
>Sorry, but it *is* shit.  Mazur says so himself.  Moreover, relating
		^^^^^^^^
>it to Dawidoicz is simply irresponsible.

 Look, I am objecting to your vulgarity here. 

>[...]

>Oh, get a life.  Or at least learn to understand English a bit better,
>that phrase isn't so difficult.

>I repeat: what are you afraid of?

 I am simply criticizing some of your statements. In response
you tell me to learn English. Try to avoid insults. What makes you
so aggressive?

 If it makes you feel better when you tell others how stupid they are
and that they don't understand English - OK, I understand and forgive you. 
 
>Roger

 Lech Borkowski
lbs@neptune.phys.ufl.edu