From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Subject: Re: Did Jesus Claim to be God (Finally?)
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:37:26 GMT


Tim and I have been discussing the early writings of the New Testament
texts and whether or not they point to the deity of Jesus Christ.

In article <1992Aug24.005512.23074@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:

>Possibly, but I'm asking you for HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, not questionable stuff
>that's 'all in the way you look at it'.

Tim, it is fine to discuss the historic validity, however, your challenge
has been whether or not the early NT writings are *internally* consistent
concerning the deity of Jesus Christ.  Are you now agreeing that they are
internally consistent in declaring the deity of Christ and are now desiring
to discuss historic validity of the writings themselves?

>That's due to 20 centuries of christian cultural programing. If we look at 
>what JEWISH people believed in the 1st century however (this is called 
>putting an ancient text into its historical context) we find that this 
>description also fitted the non-divine messiah quite neatly.

That's quite understandable concerning their rejection of Christ.  But the
testimony of the gospel declares it is because of man's guilt in regards
to sin that we reject the Savior.  So it is quite understandable for the
post-Christ generation to change its tune concerning the deity of Messiah!
Otherwise, they would be self-incriminating themselves.  However, the OT
does elude to the deity of this Messiah.

Concerning the Book of Revelation...

>I would be interested in what evidence *you* have that we can take this 
>example
>of a well-worn religious genre at face value as a genuine account of a genuine
>vision. You are the one making the highly dubious claim, perhaps you should
>provide a shred or two of evidence.

Perhaps you are saying that the Apostle John fabricated the whole account?

>> >[Zillions of 'Revelations' quotes deleted]
>> 
>> That's because there are many passages that declare the diety of Christ.
>
>No, that's because they are irrelevant to an argument about references to 
>Jesus' divinity in early texts because they come from a late text. Let's 
>stick to the topic. (And it's 'DEITY' John, not 'diety')

Sorry for the misspelling.  As you see in this posting, I changed my
ways.  Thanks for the correction.  At least I've spelled your last
name O'Neill :-).

Just out of curiousity, Tim, why do you consider John's writings to
be unreliable?  A few decades, when considering writings of antiquity,
are generally deemed to be insignificant and negligible.

Referring to Revelation 5 where Jesus the Lamb is worshipped in heaven
along with the Father, Tim writes:

>OK, my mistake, I should have looked at the passage in context. It doesn't
>make any difference to the fact (repeated now for the FOURTH time) that
>'proskuneo' does NOT mean 'to worship as a God', it means 'to bow down before'
>and it is used about angels, kings and many other people as well as about 
>Jesus ('the Lamb') as messiah *and* God. Have I got that through this time?

I'm sorry Tim, you haven't got through because in this vision the angel
commanded to only proskuneo God (Rev 22:9).  Whether or not this word
can be used to describe bowing down before those who are not God is beside
the point.  The internal evidence of this letter declares NOT to bow
down to anyone *in heaven* except God.  Yet we see both the Father and
the Son being bowed down to and adored in heaven!

>> I will continue to share more internal evidence of the early NT writings
>> that show Jesus is diety in another post.  Until then...
>
>Look forward to seeing it, but remember, we're are discussing history here.
>Incidently, is anyone else reading this thread, or should John and I take this
>to E-Mail?
>Tim O'Neill

Refer to my previous post under this same subject for the further in-
depth discussion.  Tim, I have perceived that you are already settled
and decided in this matter.  I don't want to change your will or try
to force you believe something you don't want.  I am gearing my posts
to others who may have questions.  So I don't think we will need to
go to e-mail unless you have something else to discuss.

God's blessings to you, my friend, and all who are reading on,
-- 
John Emery		"You say we've risen to a new age of light.
emery@tc.fluke.COM       You're telling me what used to be wrong
			 is now right."
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc