From: srb@atmosmips.Berkeley.EDU (Susan Beutelschies)
Subject: Re: looking for new dog suggestions
Reply-To: srb@atmosmips.Berkeley.EDU (Susan Beutelschies)
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:32:30 GMT

In article <16842C2A2.X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu>, X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug13.140833.17179@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
|>     tmason@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Tim Mason) writes:
|>  
|> >>...Now the BREED'S
|> >>retrieving worth is 60/150 = 40%.  Given that if this trend continues,
|> >>the BREED will eventually be USELESS for it purpose.
|> >
|> >Wrong.  People who keep hunting labs breed their dogs to other hunting labs.
|> >The two populations don't mix freely.
|>  
|>  
|> Not so.  I have a friend, in Philadelphia, PA.  has a lab that has a
|> total of 2 hunting titles in it's entire pedigree.  He has twice breed
|> this bitch to a dog with at least 20 titles in the pedigree (including
|> the sire itself).  They do mix.  VERY FREQUENTLY.  Usually in exactly
|> that way (ie. the sire has a title, the dam has none).  As long as
|> the owners of the sire get paid for the stud fee, they don't care.
|> 

Oh, and I thought your complaint was that dogs would get bred WITHOUT
consideration as to their hunting abilities - so that eventually hunting ability
gets bred OUT of the breed.  In the case of your friend, he is making sure that
his bitch's pups DO retain hunting ability - and now you're complaining????
 
|>  
|> >As long as there is a group of
|> >pretty serious hunters using labs, THESE HUNTING labs will always be around.
|>  
|> And so I now have a choice between paying $2000 (wasn't that the amount
|> I saw earlier) for one where the breeders have been conscientious, or
|> $400 for the breed trash like my friend produces (that is what he
|> charges - and they sell quite well).
|>  
|>  
|> >>And if you dispute that this can happen, just look at how many Cocker
|> >>Spaniels there are, and how many got any kind of hunting title last
|> >>year.  Not many.
|> >
|> >OK.  I'm disputing.  Cockers are no longer hunting dogs because they fell
|> >out of favor as hunting dogs.  Other spaniels (and other dogs) became
|> >more popular AS HUNTING DOGS.
|>  
|> And just why do you think they fell from favor as hunting dogs?  Because
|> they (as a breed) became worthless for it.  (chicken vs. the egg).
|>  

Why does this bother you?  The alternative is for this breed to die off, right?
That is, if the are ONLY bred to hunt, and not enought people USE them as
hunting dogs, so not enought people BUY them, so not enought get BRED,
pretty soon they're all gone.

|>  
|> >If you dispute this, just look at German
|> >Shepherd Dogs.  Many are not bred for Schutzhund, and these lines don't have
|> >the edge or prey drive needed for this kind of work.  Has the GSD lost its
|> >ability in this area?  No.  There are people (mostly in Germany) who breed
|> >for these characteristics.  The only problem is you need to look into a dogs
|> >pedigree before choosing it to do a job.  Shouldn't this be done anyway?
|>  
|> GSD's in this country (as a breed) CAN'T do schtzhund work.  Why?  For
|> the exact same reason - people wanted something something less from
|> them, and that's what they got, less.  This happened mainly during the run
|> of Rin Tin Tin when puppy mills couldn't keep up.  

Someone pointed out recently an article in Life magazine regarding puppy
mills.   I read the article last night (very upsetting, I might say).  According
to the article, puppy mills didn't come in to existence until the 60's or 70's
(I forget which).  Long after the run of Rin Tin Tin.

What has brought the
|> GSD back, IMHO, is the fact that it got such a bad reputation as a
|> family dog.  Only the people that really cared for the breed were left
|> to bring it back.
|>  
|> Germany never had that problem, they simply eliminated the bad pups
|> shortly after birth, and wouldn't let the sire or dam breed again.
|> That's why GSD's from Germany are regarded as superior dogs.

Oh by the way, we shouldn't let anybody own a seeing-eye-dog, since there
is no breed of dog which was origonally bred to do this.  And since it's a full-
time job, any dog which serves this purpose will obviously be deprived of its
origonal purpose.

|>  
|>       ----------------------------------------------
|> Chris Barnes            |
|> x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |  Only 20 more days until the start of
|> (409) 846-3273 (home)   |           hunting season (in Texas)
|> (409) 845-8454 (work)   |

Susan Beutelschies
srb@atmosmips.jpl.nasa.gov