HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU ()
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Recyle your paper - burn it!
Date: 30 Sep 1992 18:33:17 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <1992Sep21.142510.28938@cs.ucf.edu> clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke) writes:
>In article <1992Sep20.171649.1550@norfolk.vak12ed.edu>  
>wswail@norfolk.vak12ed.edu (Watson Swail) writes:
>> 
>> The people on this newsgroup would be better off by using
>> valuable research time to find better answers instead of
>> wasting their time discussing this topic, which nobody seems to
>> know much of.
>> -- 
>
>Since by implication, you know something of this topic, can you
>enlighten about what the problems of the recycle: 
>- growing trees - making paper - burning paper - growing trees -
>are?

It is not just grow-make-grow-make, recycling has to deal with
toxic chemicals both in the process and in the old inks in the
paper they are recycling.
>
>Directly recycling paper, it strikes me, also has many problems.  
>Fuel burned in collection trucks while they idle and workers
>sort materials, poor quality of recycled paper fiber, etc. 

Yes I have thought about all of the energy in use and therefore 
pollutes produced by the act of recycling.  There is only one area
that I see having the edge in benefits, and that is aluminum container
recycling- this elimanates the mining processes a least.  But I
also feel that the company involved with aluminum containers are 
the one's winning out... since they do not have to buy as many
'new' produced aluminum products.

>
>Also, in regard to recycling containers, I am surprised that no
>one suggests restarting the old system of reusing glass beverage
>containers.
>--
This is and isn't a surprise.  One point is that it is cheaper for
corps to use the plastic and aluminum containers, and now they are
geared towards that, plus IMHO most people have bought into the
desposible products mentality and in general tend to have gotten
lazy about returning used containers.

If we did return to the reusable containers then we would or could
cut out part of the energy consumption for recycling programs both
in pickup and production of containers.
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Date: 27 Sep 92 19:58:16 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <JMC.92Sep27102611@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>Any technology that requires government promotion on the scale
>that solar water heating does is a priori dubious.

Funny, that's what I think about AI.


-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:22:24 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <JMC.92Sep28151947@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>In article <54020@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
>
>   In article <JMC.92Sep27102611@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>   >Any technology that requires government promotion on the scale
>   >that solar water heating does is a priori dubious.
>
>   Funny, that's what I think about AI.
>   yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
>
>I have no objection to the Government funding research on solar
>heating, and I would have objection to the Government subsidizing
>people's use of AI in preference to some other technology for doing
>the same job, except perhaps as a temporary experiment.  Even
>temporary experiments of subsidizing actual use, whether solar heating
>or AI, are dubious, because the beneficiaries of the subsidy often
>succeed in prolonging it.

The same can be said for research programs. I have to say that
denounciations of government expenditures by a representave of 
the government funded research establishment who is currently
complaining that there are moves towards placing tighter controls over
what gets done with public research money are not the most credible.


-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment,talk.politics.misc
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Subsidies for Roads and Cars in the USA
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Sep30.120521.16948@news.acns.nwu.edu> <donb.718313663@crash>
	<1992Oct5.222329.15554@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:49:18

In article <1992Oct5.222329.15554@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis) writes:
   In article <donb.718313663@crash> donb@crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen) writes:
   >In <1992Sep30.120521.16948@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
   >	Fresh produce delivered by truck is speeded to your local salad
   >bar over those roads you do not want to pay for.

   Absolutely correct. If I wanted to subsidize long-distance farming,
   I'd rather find a better way. As is, I *deliberately* avoid buying
   such food, and encourage others to do the same. Here in the PNW, I can
   grow or buy salad crops locally all year around. I humbly suggest that
   those living in regions where this is not so easy either alter their
   diets and/or seek methods of year-round farming that will work for the
   foods they'd like to eat.

He never sounds humble to me.

   >	The cost of delivery by truck is paid for by the shipper.  The truck
   >owner pays heafty fees and taxes to use the road.  

   As has been pointed out many times, nowhere near as "heafty" [ sic] as
   the damage they cause in relation to other road users.

   >	Trucks are taxed heavly because the taxes are hidden from most
   >voters.  The well developed interstate and local highway system is what
   >makes it possible for some of us to live in an apartment, ride bycicles to
   >work and pretend that we get no benefit from the roads.

   I'd rather go after the "average" american who, by some accounts, will
   not walk more than 1/4 mile to go anywhere, high-heels or not, and who
   thinks that tomatoes year round is a normal way of life.

Tomatoes year around became a normal way of a life a couple centuries
after having tomatoes at all became normal.  Why shouldn't people
drive whenever they feel like it?  I claim doing so is sustainable
and extendable to the whole world.  Suppose I am right.  Would it
still be wrong to drive a quarter mile?

   -- paul

   -- 
   There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a
   little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider
   price only are this man's lawful prey.
						   John Raskin

The fellow's name was John Ruskin, and he was quite a creative snob.
He invented and popularized whole new categories of snobbery.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: pjr@splash.Princeton.EDU (Peter Rayner)
Subject: Re: Env. Satellites Shutdown in Dec. 1992
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: satellites, budget cuts
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:00:16 GMT


Ok folks, I'm breaking my own rules here and posting off the top of my
head.    This does not sound like a clever idea (he says typing
through gritted teeth).  If we can get some confirmation that this is
actually happening (not that I doubt the original poster) and
somewhere to aim, I would suggest shouting quite loudly about this.  

I notice that it's generally more junior members of organizations
(like myself) who are the net-addicts.  One obvious step is to let
those above us know.  I can certainly name a lot of senior people in a large
research organization close to this room who would be, um, less than
pleased if this were to happen.

So, let's check this out and be prepared to scream if need be.
Oh, needless to say, I'm not speaking for my organization.
-- 
Peter Rayner Program in Oceanic           | "All right, I retract, the 
and Atmospheric Sciences Princeton        | Honourable Member does *not* have
University                                | the brains of a monkey." F.Daly
From: jhurst@amb4.ccalmr.ogi.edu (James Hurst)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Spotted Owl (Re: The Human Niche
Summary: Catastrophe theory?  The genuine article?
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:08:55 GMT
Organization: sadly lacking

Gil Hardwick writes:

> ... We do not bother with species preservation as
>such here in Australia, and for this reason I have been a little
>confused by the debate among you Americans (Re "Northern" & "Southern"
>Owls, and reference to your Condor program in that context).

The Endangered Species Act is the cornerstone of US wildlife protection 
efforts.  It's managed by the Fish and Wildlife Service, but was never
provided with a funding mechanism.  Rather than a planning mechanism, 
it is emergency care for species.  As has become obvious over the past
decade, the best thing for threatened species to to prevent their habitat
from being wiped out.  The responsible federal agencies, the Forest 
Service and the BLM in the owl case, often disregard their legal obligations
to protect the public resources under intense pressure from the politically
powerful timber industry.

ESA finds itself in the center of controversy now, because it was the legal 
tool used to stop a significant part of a regional industry in its tracks.

>We take a total systems approach here. Formal references can be made
>to Systems Theory and Strategic Management, which apply to any given
>endeavour, while in practice species mapping techniques deployed in
>context are the most useful.

While in theory this is also the case in the US, in practice industry usually
tells the federal watchdogs what to do, and the environmentalists then 
arm-wrestle with them in court, regardless of what is written in the law.
Perhaps the federal agencies need a spine transplant?  ;^)

Anyway, how would Systems Theory and Strategic Management be applied in 
practice?  Ferinstance, what part would they play in say, the development of
a new iron mine?

>You might like to refer to the Water Python/Marsh Rat inter-relational
>studies done in the seasonal wetlands of the Northern Territory Top
>End. 

The Net is just terrible about looking things up.  Could you give us a 
synopsis of the python/rat case, and its significance?

>In my own work, spending so much time with Aboriginal people, I have
>also found Catastrophe Theory mapped onto the Social Sciences to be
>extremely effective in building complex analogues of the area under
>study. 

Hey, wait a minute!  THE catastrophe theory, the Rene Thom stuff?  Are you
talking about rigidly and quantitatively applying differential geometry? 
Or perhaps a slightly fuzzier approach, trying to identify cusp events,
and the changes which follow them?  I don't understand at all, would you
clarify a little?

>Environmental stress levels and trigger events can be followed
>closely then by field assistants, often local people, and their data
>can be gathered later for processing.

So what kinds of environmental stress levels do you look at, and what kinds
of things would be trigger events?  I'm intrigued, please tell us more.

					Cheers,

					Jim
From: len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Env. Satellites Shutdown in Dec. 1992
Keywords: satellites, budget cuts
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:59:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Oct6.185959.23158
Organization: Dept of Math, Northwestern Univ

In article <BvpoHJ.3uK@news.larc.nasa.gov> rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland) writes:
>We at Langley Research Center received news on Thursday, October 2,
>1992 that NASA intends to shutdown the following satellites in
>December to save about $15M:
>
>     NUMBUS-7
>
>     ERBS
>
>     NOAA-9
>
>     NOAA-10
>
>Some of the experiments that will not be operational while
>the satellites are shutdown are:
>
>     Stratospheric Aerosol Measurement II  (SAM II)
>
>     Earth Radiation Budget Experiment (ERBS) (3)
>
>     Stratospheric Aerosol and Gas Experiment II (SAGE II)
>
>There was no word about whether the satellites would ever
>be turned back on.
>
>Mike Rowland
>
>Mike Rowland, Aerosol Research Branch, MS 475
>NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA 23681
>internet: rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov


I thought the Bush administration argued that we have to collect
more data about global warming.   How is supposed to happen if
measurements of this kind are not financed?

Leonard Evens      len@math.nwu.edu      708-491-5537
Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Date: 27 Sep 1992 15:39:43 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1466601781@igc.apc.org>, Tom Gray <tgray@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
><responding to Carl Lydick>
>
>Sorry, Carl, I don't understand your point.  What in the material
>quoted leads you to conclude that solar is not cost-competitive?

The fact that the government has decided that it's necessary to rob people who
don't use solar in order to encourage others to use solar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: hurricanes and conservation
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:36:45 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

In article <1992Oct05.125009.14290@watson.ibm.com> andrewt@watson.ibm.com (Andrew Taylor) writes:

>In sci.energy rovero@guam.oc.nps.navy.mil (Josh Rovero) writes:
>>...  So were the pieces over the weekend that dealt with the
>>"damage" Hurricane Andrew did to the Everglades and Louisiana bayous.

>>And I thought hurricanes were *part* of the environment...

>Hurricanes are a natural force but Florida is no longer in a natural state.

>Species that have surived a great number of hurricanes in the past
>may be made extinct by a hurricane now because we have greatly reduced
>their range or population.  It is the capacity to survive natural
>catastrophes that determines the minimum viable population for many species.

>Hurricanes may also exacerbate existing artificial stresses on ecosystems.
>For example, there is concern that introduced plants such as Casurinas
>will invade areas of the Everglades disturbed by the Hurricane Andrew.

Without contradicting your first paragraph, I'd point out that the second 
one raises interesting questions about our motivations. While much accelerated
by human impacts, introduction of exotics is also a perfectly natural
process. I understand that the Brazilian exotic trees, (I guess the Casurinas
you mention) tend to produce rather monotonous dense stands, and crowd out
more complex and interesting ecosystems. My point is that this too is a
perfectly natural process, and has apparently occurred on a large scale in
Brazil.

Should our objective in cases like this be to preserve the most diverse
population, or the most nearly natural processes? Either is problematic.
For instance, if circumstances change, e.g. climate change, the natural
progression might be to a less interesting and diverse ecology. How much
effort should we put into maintaining an ecology that is no longer in balance
with its conditions? Should it make a difference if the change is natural
or anthropogenic? Isn't this a version of the Smokey the Bear mistake,
suppressing natural catastrophes to the short term advantage and long term
detriment of the ecosystem?

BTW, those who propose that zoos and arboretums are sufficient should note
that the world's most extensive collection of palm trees and several other
types of tropical fauna was Fairchild Gardens in Coral Gables, which 
is a few hundres meters from shore and sufferred a direct hit from Andrew.
Much of their collection was irreperably damaged.

mt
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Anti-Gore article
Followup-To: talk.environment
Date: 29 Sep 1992 01:48:05 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Sep28.182903.2437@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>, jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker) writes:
=Thomas F. Donnelly (donnelly@nosc.mil) wrote:
=
=: 
=: What is this non-issue doing on sci.environment?  Please don't answer.
=: 			    T. Donnelly
=: 			    donnelly@cod.nosc.mil
=: 
=
=	I, for one, thinks it's an issue (and I started it, so there).
=Why?
=	Because the original title of this thread is "Anti-Gore" article,
=and it appears that we are discussing peripheral issues to the presidential
=campaign, which has a contrast in significantly different platform 
=positions regarding the environment.  I'm defending the Clinton/Gore ticket,
=whose environmental positions I support, against scurrilous attacks 
=which don't have much to do with the environment.  I probably won't
=change Josh's mind, but I had to think about this issue regarding a vote
=for Clinton/Gore.  Did it change my mind?  Do I abandon my support because
=of some peccadilloes a college student committed while trying to avoid
=having his ass blown off in a swampy jungle?  Yeah, maybe Clinton prevaricated
=about his draft record.  According to Secord, Bush was "in the loop"
=regarding the Iran-Contra decision-making process, and a Weinberger memo
=reportedly supports this.  Now who do you trust?  And if true, who's been
=lying to the American public?
=	Relevance to sci.environment:  Major.

Relevence to SCI.environment:  None
Relevence to TALK.environment: Major

Please move the discussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Bush & the Environment
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:45:46 GMT
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Distribution: usa
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Sep18.133004.24501@news.acns.nwu.edu>, len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>For example, at Rio, he refused to sign
>the biodiversity treaty, supposedly to protect the interests of the
>American biotechnology industry.

I believe the offending part of the treaty was the one that would've made
patenting any products or processes that were derived from "biodiversity"
impossible.  E.g., if a pharmaceutical company found a naturally-occurring
chemical that had useful properties, but also bad side effects, then engaged in
reasearch and development to create a wholly artificial, but related chemical
with the same useful properties but the side effects limited, then the company
would've been unable to patent the artificial chemical.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: --SMUD Combines Solar, Efficiency
Date: 27 Sep 92 18:30:16 GMT
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 92Sep27102611@SAIL.Stanford.EDU, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
>Any technology that requires government promotion on the scale
>that solar water heating does is a priori dubious.
>

What commonly used sources of energy have not been promoted by government?
Surely not nuclear and hydro which exist only because of massive government spending.
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Bar-coded cars
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Date: 2 Oct 92 09:49:00 EST
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

From email:

	"New Scientist" reported that Singapore, to fight huge downtown
traffic problems and encourage the use of mass transit, bar-coded every car.
If a car parked downtown, the bar code was read by a bar-code readerperson!
The car was charged for the use of the road for the distance from the home
to the downtown area.  Central core traffic dropped 50% and public 
transportation use went up 90%, because they made it more economical
to use public transportation than the car.

	Jim Acker
	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov

Brett                                                      
_______________________________________________________________________________
Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster					       (Pick any two :)
Disclaimer:								   NOT!
From: wipke@moldes.ucsc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Environmental Chemistry courses
Date: 6 OCT 92 10:37:06 PDT
Organization: UCSC Molecular Engineering Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: moldes.ucsc.edu

We are considering development of a new course in environmental chemistry
and would like to hear from anyone that has such a course about the content,
level, and clientel.  Thank you for your help.

Nicolas Ladizinsky
University of California
Santa Cruz, CA
95064
nick@secs.ucsc.edu
From: lc1bocv1@cine88.cineca.it
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: meteo online databases
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:23:56 +0100
Organization: CINECA, Italian Interuniversity comp. centre

I'm a  student in atmospheric science, and i'm looking for 
atmospheric online databases. I' concerned expecially whit 
potential vorticity map and trajectory;can anyhelp me ?me ?
A friend of mine told me about ACCU-WEATHER database,but i
don't known anything about this,neither how to contact for.
Does anybody  known it ?.
thanks in advances to everyone .

Fabrizio Ravegnani
CNR Fisbat Institute 
Bologna Italy
lc1bocv1@cine88eca.it
From: rdna@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Paul Paukstelis)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: HS debate topic
Date: 5 Oct 1992 22:34:14 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Summary: debate
Keywords: debate


This year's national high school debate topic is RESOLVED: That the United
States gov't should reduce worldwide pollution through its trade and/or aid
policies. If anyone has any nifty ideas how the US could do this through trade
and or aid, send me some mail. If you could include sources that would be
appreciated. We were running a Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) case, but
now that the House has overidden, we have some inherency problems. thanks so
much.


--rDNA of MLF, industriaL musiC froM manhattaN kS
paul
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment,talk.politics.misc