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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:57:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Arnie Kahn <FAC_ASKAHN@JMUVAX.BITNET>
From:         Arnie Kahn <FAC_ASKAHN@JMUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      request

Could messages to edstat-l be confined to issues involving teaching of
statistics and not envelope problems and other esoteria?  I would like to know,
as others have discussed, how to best explain correlation to my students.

I also have a question.  Our department, psychology, had been using a text
which is now out of print, Jim Couch's book.  It was a good book for our
purposes--not a lot of theory, but a practical guide to understanding given
data with certain qualifications, what is the appropriate statistical test to
use.  The text that was adopted this fall I think is inferior.  So, the
question is, what's a good basic stat text for students who have limited
mathematical background?

In addition, I'd like a book that doesn't emphasize computational formula.
The students have a lab and learn to do SPSS.  I, personally at least, see no
reason for them to learn to compute correlation coefficients or ANOVAs with a
hand calculator when they have much more powerful tools at their disposal.

So, textbook suggestions?

Arnie
********************************************************************************
Arnie Kahn, Psychology, JMU, Harrisonburg, VA 22807     (703) 568-3963 - day
fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (preferred)                 (703) 434-0225 - night
fac_askahn@jmuvax                                       (703) 568-3322 - fax
********************************************************************************
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:14:00 CST
Reply-To:     FRANKE@BIOST.BIOSTAT.WISC.EDU
From:         FRANKE@BIOST.BIOSTAT.WISC.EDU
Subject:      Question - Comparison of dummy codes & effect codes

HI,

	Is anyone aware of a good article or book that compares dummy coding
with effects coding in regression?  Also a comparison with constrast coding
would be helpful.  Thank you to all whom respond.  I will post the responses to
the list.

				Todd M. Franke
				UW-Madison
				Dept. of Biostatistics


franke@biost.biostat.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
From: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Subject: Re:      Res Meths Courses
Reply-To: mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:54:20 GMT

Dennis Roberts says that it is unreasonable to expect the students to 
"do it all" (i.e. an entire project) in a research methods class, and that 
this frequently leads to the student doing an incorrect analysis.  

I disagree on both counts.  Certainly the instructor should exercise some
control over the projects.  I have found that this can be done pretty 
easily by requiring each student (or group, if it's a group project) to 
submit a project proposal.  I usually say "The proposal won't be graded,
but your proposal has to be approved before you can do the project."  Then,
when students pick a project that is much too ambitious or will require an
esoteric analysis far beyond the scope of the course, I tell them so, and 
suggest they might want to pick a different project, or narrow the field of
inquiry somewhat.  I have found that this works quite well.

Last year, when I did this, I had one student who turned in her proposal 
4 times before I approved it.  I kept telling her she did not have a 
well-defined question.  It took her a while to see what I meant, but when
she did, a light bulb really went on -- that was a learning experience for
her.  If I had simply handed her a well-defined problem in the first place,
she would not have learned that.  

I feel it is vital for students to pick their own projects.  The project is
then something that is of real interest to the student.  Anyone who thinks
this doesn't make students more motivated hasn't tried it.  Besides, some of
the students are quite inventive, and think of good ideas for projects that
I would never have thought of.  

Marie Coffin
From: CRWOLFE@MIAVX1.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Research Methods Projects
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:18:00 GMT
Reply-To: CRWOLFE@MIAVX1.BITNET
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In answer to the issue raised in "Are you teaching what you think,"
Since part of being a good researcher is having an idea of what kinds of
anaylses are appropriate BEFORE data collection begins, then it is important
to get students to see the ramifications of their design decisions early in
the process. If the appropriate techniques are beyond the student then he or
she should be made aware of that. I see no problem with telling a student that
"there are more sophisticated techniques for analysing the kinds of data this
proposed study would produce, let's see if we can find easier ways of addressing

the same research questions." I'm a srtond advocate of student-centered
the same research questions." I'm a strong advocate of student-centered
discovery oriented learning. However taking this approach does not mean the
teacher is absolved of responsibility or teaches misinformation. It means
more work be it tailoring the teaching to specific projects, or admiting that
some approaches require advanced techniques and that (for the time being)
they are better served by more basic techniques. -Chris Wolfe
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Re: Niceties of inference schools
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:54:24 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <11OCT199222162878@pearl.tufts.edu>, gdallal@pearl.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal) writes:
> In article <1992Oct12.094824.11360@waikato.ac.nz>, maj@waikato.ac.nz writes...
>>Can anyone think of a situation where a user of statistics
>>would come to serious harm in thinking that a parameter
>>belonged to a particular 95% confidence interval with
>>probability .95?
> 
> Yes. But to keep the things simple, let x1,x2 be iid U(theta-1, theta+1).
> It is easy to show (min, max) is a 50% CI for theta.  If you think it's ok
> to say that the probability is 50% that theta lies in the interval then you
> should be willing to give me even odds and let me choose  whether theta is
> inside or outside the interval.  Certainly, you should be willing to let me 
> put up $10 to your $1 and let me choose whether theta is inside or outside the
> interval.
> 
> Great.  I will choose to bet whenever max-min>1.  I will bet on the interval 
> and *never lose*.  Confidence interval are not bet worthy.  The same thing can
> be done for the usual 95% two-sided CI for population means based on the t 
> distribution, with only minor modifications. 
> 
> So.  Does the distinction matter?  You bet it does.  

I'm sorry, but users of statistics don't play games of this kind.
They have conducted their experiment or survey or whatever and
they are looking for reasonable numbers to summarise the evidence
that they have gathered.

I am not saying that these distinctions cannot and should not be
made. But to stress them in an introductory course to nonspecialists
can be confusing and understates the important common ground
between statisticians of all stripes.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:19:00 PDT
Reply-To:     "Peter A. Lachenbruch" <IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
From:         "Peter A. Lachenbruch" <IARSPAL@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      Discriminant Analysis with Dichotomies

In the late 1960s, Ethel Schaeffer (her name now is Gilbert) published in JASA
on the dichotomous variable problem. Dan Moore also published some work in the
mid 1970s, also in JASA. The references should be in my book "Discriminant
Analysis" published by Hafner in 1975 (yes, I still do have a slight monetary
interest, but I'd try to find a library copy). The general results were (for
two groups) that dichotomous variables don't hurt too much provided the prob-
ability is not too close to 0 or 1. Generally, discriminant analysis is quite
robust to distributional insults providing skewness isn't too bad.

Regards - Tony Lachenbruch
From: KAPLON@TOWSONVX.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Acknowledgements
Date: 15 Oct 92 00:30:38 GMT
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SET EDSTAT-L REPRO
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From: nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad)
Subject: SPSS ... please help me find ...
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 23:56:08 GMT


Greetings,


 I hope I am posting to the write group ! If not a thousand apologies
!

I am hoping to find a package which runs under either Dos or Os/2 or
Unix which is compatible with SPSS and which is shareware or freeware.

If you know of such a package or of a place where I can find it I
would be most grateful if you could give me some pointers.

Either post or e-mail and I'll summerize.

thanks a lot !

naji.
--
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Naji Mouawad  |          nmouawad@watmath.waterloo.edu            |
    |  University   |---------------------------------------------------|
    | Of Waterloo   |   "The Stranger in us is our most familiar Self"  |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 06:47:22 EDT
Reply-To:     "r. j. harvey" <HARVEYRJ@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         "r. j. harvey" <HARVEYRJ@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      physics

  allow me to expand on my earlier post regarding the "excessively long" post
on larsonian(?) physics.  apparently mistakenly, I read that message, and
thought it somehow pertained to the factor analysis-quantum physics thread
that has been occurring.  more correctly, I read PART of that message,
found it to be rather odd, and hit "delete" to move on to the next one.
my apologies to peter lachenbruch, pirie, et al., for thinking that message was
a "real" one, and generalizing their complaint to that whole thread.
  my concern still stands, however.  what is "excessive" length, and who
should judge what "acceptable" content is?  if that person HAD attempted
to link larsonian physics to factor analysis, or whatever, would it THEN
have been appropriate?  my reading of the bitnet/internet guides says that
excessively long messages/files sent over the net are forbidden, but their
standards of length are QUITE different from the 300-word guide (i.e., they
are in thousands, or millions, of bytes).
  IMHO, many of the things I read on lists are downright silly, and at times
very annoying; however, I certainly wouldn't cast my support to an movement
to "police" the content, or length, of such "contributions" to academic
discussion.

r. j. harvey
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From: jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Prediction intervals
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:39:55 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University


            If  anyone still cares,  while the issues  underlying  the 
        envelope  problem are related to those surrounding  confidence 
        intervals,   a   closer analogy might be made with  prediction 
        intervals.   (See, for example, Cox and Hinkley,  section 7.5.  
        I   suspect  most  readers  would  find  Hahn   and   Meeker's 
        Statistical  Intervals  more readable,  but I am  making  this 
        guess without having read it myself.) 

            A   prediction   interval  is  a  conditional   confidence 
        statement.    To  illustrate  with  a  simple  case [N(mu,1)], 
        consider predicting the value of a future observation X  after 
        observing   n  observations  whose  mean  is  xbar.    Without 
        conditioning on the first n observations, X-XBAR ~ N(0,1+1/n), 
        that is, with 95% probability 
              -1.96 sqrt(1+1/n) <= X - XBAR <= 1.96 sqrt(1+1/n) 
        or      
             XBAR-1.96 sqrt(1+1/n) <= X <= XBAR+1.96 sqrt(1+1/n) 

        If we condition on XBAR, the probability goes away, but 
                xbar-1.96 sqrt(1+1/n), xbar+1.96 sqrt(1+1/n) 
        is a 95%  prediction interval for x.   The prediction interval 
        stands relative to x the same way a confidence interval stands 
        relative to its parameter. 
            
            In the envelope problem,  both 2x and x/2  (where x is the 
        amount in the opened envelope)  are 50% prediction "intervals" 
        for the amount in the other envelope because,  if you play the 
        same game over and over, each prediction interval will contain 
        the amount in the other envelope half the time. 
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X-Acknowledge-To: <ELLEN@PACEVM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:58:22 EDT
Reply-To:     arthur s ellen <ELLEN@PACEVM.BITNET>
From:         arthur s ellen <ELLEN@PACEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Show all work?!

The other day in a note about textbooks Peter Lachenbruch made this secondary
point: "I heartily second the idea of dropping the computing formulas: ... stu-
dents will use a computer, or the hand calculator will probably compute the
standard deviation for them. This is NOT a good idea for stats majors, as they
may need to know the dangers of bad numerical accuracy someday soon."

Although I am not thinking of making students into human computers, part of
my philosophy of teaching statistical material is to have students at least
once work a managble problem through by hand. I believe that for many students
this concretizes what they are doing and for others it may even help them
get to the concepts behind the mechanics. On the other hand, some students
do get locked into the algorithm of the problem, soley. One student said to
me yesterday, "Once I get all the steps listed, I've got it and that's not
so hard."

Does it make sense then to let students use computing to obtain answers
or should we rather require some minimum of hand calculation?

------------------------------------------------------
      ART ELLEN             PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENT  
 BITNET:  ELLEN@PACEVM         PACE UNVERSITY      
  VOICE:  (212) 346-1506         41 PARK ROW       
                           NEW YORK, NY 10038-1502 
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Subject: (no subject given)
Apparently-To: EDSTAT-L@NCSUVM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:03:22 -0700
Reply-To:     EMARKOW@CSULA.BITNET
From:         EMARKOW@CSULA.BITNET

I am sorry to waste bandwidth here but I need to
unsubscribe from this list.  When I send an UNSUB
in I am told that I am not on the list - however the
mail still keeps pouring in.  Can some kind listserv
maintainer get me off???
Please!!!!!!
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 12:44:00 PDT
Reply-To:     Albyn Jones <jones@REED.EDU>
From:         Albyn Jones <jones@REED.EDU>
Subject:      re:Rejected messages

Lee Wolfle complains about multiple copies of rejected messages.  I
had the same experience today, as well.  I don't know the total
count as yet, since they are still coming in!

albyn

jones@reed.edu
From: gdallal@pearl.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Re: envelope
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <921012032253_71020.1025_EHC87-1@CompuServe.COM>, William Kahn <71020.1025@COMPUSERVE.COM> writes...
>There are two envelopes, one with twice as much money as the other.  You
>open one and find 100$.  What is the chance the other has $50?.
> 
>Answer: 1/3.  Bayesian proof (with apologies to Jerry Dallal :-) )
> 

No need to apologize for a Bayesian solution that doesn't try to masquerade
as frequentist!
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Return-Path: <sbaker@umassmed.UMMED.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:24:26 -0400
Reply-To:     Stephen Baker <sbaker@UMASSMED.UMMED.EDU>
From:         Stephen Baker <sbaker@UMASSMED.UMMED.EDU>
Subject:      Are you teaching what you think?

Marsha Shepherd poses the question, "...what if the 'correct' analysis is
beyond the scope of the class...teacher...etc."

What would be more appropriate for a research methods class than to have
an in-class consultation with a "real" statistician when the teacher
is in over his head?  What statistics department wouldn't relish, let alone
cooperate with this approach?



Stephen P. Baker                                phone:  (508) 856-2625
Lecturer in Biostatistics                               (508) 856-2440 fax
Department of Academic Computing                        (413) 253-3923 home
University of Massachusetts Medical School      e-mail: sbaker@umassmed.bitnet
55 Lake Avenue North                                    _. .____ __. _ __._
Worcester, MA 01655
From: WEIF@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: HELP
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:57:00 GMT
Reply-To: WEIF@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU
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X-Envelope-to: EDSTAT-L%NCSUVM.BITNET@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"EDSTAT-L%NCSUVM.BITNET@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU"

I am a faculty at Scool of Public Health and is teaching "Statistics in
Heath Sciences".  I need some suggestions about a good statistics computer
program which I will have students purchase it as a required material.
It can not be expensive.  The price target is $50.00 or less.  It needs have
the ability to do the following things:
   1. Data Management
   2. Descriptive Statistics
   3. Freqency Distributions
   4. Hypothesis test: Mean
   5. Scatterplot
   6. Correlation Matrix
   7. Regression Analysis
   8. Nonparametric Statistics
   9. CHI-SQUARE Statistics
  10. Probability Distributions for the following distributions
      a. Binomial Distribution
      b. Normal Distribution
      c. T Distribution
      d. CHI_SQUARE Distribution
      e. F Distribution
  11. Hypothesis Test : Proportion

The good handbook for this statistics computer program is essential ---
so students can figure out how to do the above work themselves.  The
textbook we are using is "Basic Statistics for the Health Sciences" by
Jan W. Kuzma.  Your suggestions are highly appreciated.  Please give us
the name and publishing Company of the suggested statistics computer
program (If possible, the contact phone number and price would be very
helpful).  Thanks again.

Feifei Wei
Assistant Professor
Scool of Public Health
St. Louis University

E-mail: WEIF@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU
From: jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Re: Niceties and esoterica
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:49:00 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University

In article <1992Oct14.083430.11395@waikato.ac.nz>, maj@waikato.ac.nz writes:
> 
> So when we speak in loud capital letters of what's RIGHT and what's 
> WRONG we are speaking about concepts and derivations
> within a particular formalism, and not larger truths about
> this universe we live in. I'm not saying that one should not
> teach these concepts as clearly and accurately as you can. But
> let's not spend a lot of time on clever little conundrums
> designed to advance one particular formalism at the expense
> of another. 


I'm confused.  Are you saying that students should be allowed to use
"confidence" and "probability" interchangeably?  If not, then we are
in agreement; if so, it's WRONG.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:32:56 EDT
Reply-To:     Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
From:         Walt Pirie <WLTPIRIE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Probable Confidence

The following is exerpted from Murray Jorgenson:


Like Arnie, I have been having some difficulty appreciating
all this discussion of the envelope problem. To spend a large
proportion of class time on explaining the difference between
various systems of statistical inference seems to me like
attending to the needs of the instructor, rather than most
consumers of statistics. Certainly this may be appropriate to
explore later in the education of a statistical specialist, but
I don't think that was what most people were talking about.

Isn't _any_ form of interval estimate an interval within
which it is reasonable to expect the parameter to lie?

Can anyone think of a situation where a user of statistics
would come to serious harm in thinking that a parameter
belonged to a particular 95% confidence interval with
probability .95?
--
Response: Well, probably not. But is that saying that there is no need
for a careful, formal definition? Or there's no need to be concerned with
using it in the classroom or text books because "people know what I mean,
" and "There's no serious harm"? I have to say that concept of teaching
extended in general is scary. And where would the line be drawn when in
many schools all but the more theoretical courses are taken by both
those studying to become statisticians and those wishing to become
competent in methods for their own use? Or is it ok to have to relearn
things along the way? Similarly with those who become turned on by an
early course and decide to study it in more depth.
"Oh, what I told you last year wasn't quite correct, but we'll do it
properly this time." For what reason? What's so wrong with being careful
from the start? Or is that to be considered pedantic?
Or were we supposed to be talking about Bayesian methods with prior distributio
ns and I missed the point?

Walt Pirie
Statistics, Va Tech.
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:34:06 EDT
Reply-To:     Stephen Salbod <SALBOD1@PACEVM.BITNET>
From:         Stephen Salbod <SALBOD1@PACEVM.BITNET>

I feel the 'physics' article was the exeception and not the rule.  I was
annoyed by it because I thought it had something to do with the current
discussion of factor analysis and therefore I read most of it before
realizing that the article was from another dimension.  I don't see
any need to have any type of limitations set on the list because the
article was the *exception* and I think we are all sensitized to this
type of article now. So on with the discussions!!

PRODUCED AND DIRECTED BY STEPHEN SALBOD (SALBOD1@PACEVM)
        ON LOCATION AT PACE UNIVERSITY, NY
From: pat@PO.CWRU.EDU (Paul A. Thompson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.edstat-l
Subject: Fed support for educational technology
Date: 14 Oct 92 17:39:34 GMT
Reply-To: "Paul A. Thompson" <pat@po.CWRU.Edu>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I am developing some software for statistics.  I am interested
in Fed support.  What exists?  Under what offices?

Note: Under 300 words.

--
Paul Thompson, Ph.D.  |  Department of Psychiatry  |  (216) 844-7463
Case Western Reserve University  | Cleveland, OH  44106
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I hear "family values," I reach for my revolver. - para. Hans Jonst