From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Date: 7 Nov 1992 07:04:48 GMT
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In article <1debifINNocj@agate.berkeley.edu> dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch) writes:
>In article <1dcj51INNgc2@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
>>
>[ long dialogue of Perp trying to talk Victim into intercourse ]
>>
>>At what point did the perp cross the line from bargaining to rape?
>>
>>I think it occurred at the last quoted line.  The perp made an agreement,
>>then broke it, and demanded an additional sexual favor before performing
>>as agreed.  At that point, as far as I'm concerned, it crosses the line
>>into rape.
>
>How about when the victim says:  "Get the hell out of here!" and the Perp
>refuses?  Or when she tries to push him out the door, and he refuses?  She
>has many options besides submitting, if she doesn't want to.  If all he
>did was refuse to leave until she submitted, then I have no sympathy for
>her.  Lying is not a crime, not in these circumstances, anyway.  Call the
>police, or a friend, for chrissakes.

And if the perp outweighs the victim by a good 50 pounds and stays
between the victim and the phone?  Why is it exactly that you have
no sympathy for someone in the victim's position?  Haven't you ever
been pushed around by a bully?  Don't you remember how that felt?

The point is, if things were consensual, the victim wouldn't need to
push the perp out or call for help.  At the point when the victim needs
help to extricate herself from the situation, it crosses the line.

That's why I think that the line is well placed.  That's where it
stopped being consensual.  So what do _you_ call it when someone demands
nonconsensual sexual favors under threat (express or implied) of violence?

I'm deadly serious.  I'm asking you.  Fits of pique aside, what _do_ you
call it?

>Women can only be equal when they are willing and able to stand up for
>themselves at the necessary times.  In the scenario Robert presents, the
>Victim, presumably a women, is not physically powerless, is not forced,
>but is unable to deal with the pressure from the Perp.  Whose fault is
>this?  The Perp, or the Victim?  The Perp may be an ass, a jerk, a total
>slimeball, but a rapist?  Come on.  Calling the Perp a rapist is basically
>saying that the Victim is not able to defend herself against this sort
>of mental pressure -- in effect, saying that the Victim is not the social,
>mental, or emotional equal of the Perp.

You know, I think that what we have here is a classic miscommunication
about the nature of equality.  Unlike the impression that many women
have, and that many feminist subscribe to, it is simply not the case
that men are raised to believe that their equal place in society is a
given.  Men are taught from the beginning that they have to earn a
place through, among other things, physical self defense.  And having
earned his place by standing up for themselves against bullies, many men
tend to be very jealous of granting equal stature to others who haven't
done that yet.  No one had sympathy for them.  They had to "fight
their own battles."  So why should they have sympathy for anyone else?

My sense of what feminism ultimately seeks, is for this "prerequisite
of physical virility," or whatever you want to call it, to be lifted.
Those who are fair want it to be lifted for men as well.  Whether the
victim in this scenario is male or female, and I intentionally left out
reference to gender, at the point where consent stops, I believe that
that is where rape begins.  Perhaps we need a misdemeanor rape for
cases in which no explicit threats of violence are used.

>Change the scenario from a sexual context to, say, buying a car, the car
>buyer being the Victim.  The Victim eventually lets the Perp, or car salesman,
>browbeat her into making a bad deal on a new car.  Does your opinion of
>who is at fault change?  Switch the genders around, in both scenarios.
>Does your opinion change now?

My opinion stays the same.  I've walked out on more than one shark-type
salesman.  I'd love to have a couple of them arrested.  I don't buy
cars from dealers.  I don't do business with people like that.  But
this is more akin to the door-to-door salesman who just won't leave
until you hand over your credit card.  YOu can't walk out because the
salesman is already in your _home._

>Daniel Welch

-r


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