From: silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva)
Subject: Re: Fashionable Yank-bashing From Europe's Arbiters of Fashion
Keywords: hypocrisy
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:33:58 GMT

>(Luc Maillet) writes:
>|>(Holly Silva) writes:
>
>|> 	LA est toute la difference? Bah! La difference n'existe pas!
>
>  Si. Lq difference se trouve dans le fait que l'affaire Rainbow Warrior etait
>une operation des Services Secrets Francais qui, ayant echoue, a oblige le
>gouvernement a chercher une issue diplomatique - donc a renier ce genre de
>pratiques. Alors que l'arrestation au mexique par les US a ete suivie par une
>officialisation de ce genre de pratique.
>  Les deux operations sont aussi detestables l'une que l'autre. La ou les US
>ont depasse les bornes, c'est dans la reaction du gouvernement a la decouverte
>de l'affaire. Cela prouve le peu de cas qu'ils font du droit international. Et
>la difference - et mon souverain mepris pour les US - viennent en grande partie
>de la.
>
>|> 	Not officially sanctioned state terrorism? Then why did the French
>|> government persuade the Kiwis to release these men into French custody, 
>|> only to let them go free?
	If this does not constitute official sanctioning, nothing does.

	You see perhaps, Benjamin, why your sarcasm was lost on me. I
read French only like a child, very literally with little grasp of 
nuance, by and large. Beyond that however there are among your compatriots
those who insist that there is a difference between covert and overt 
support of state terrorism. I strongly disagree. Governments are almost
by definition organizations of lies and subterfuge, and their willingness
to admit it is of small relevance to the impact of their actions.

>|> It is singularly inappropriate for net.citizens of a nation so
>|> steeped in blood as France to habitually, incessantly push the issue of
>|> 'American state terrorism' or to harp on the arrogance with which our
>|> government conducts its affairs.
>
>  "American misdeeds pale...". I think that both VietNam and more recent Pana-
>-ma are perfect examples of American imperialism attempts. And the way south 
>american  dictatorships were supported by US funds and foreign policy proves
>that the US have nothing to learn in that field from old europe.
> 
	Panama was a disgusting, pointless spectacle. Insofar as I can tell,
Bush used the US military to settle an old score with the little Toad
(Noriega, as referred to by his own people) at the expense of the US
taxpayer without thought of the probable long-term effect it would have
upon us and our status in the world.
	Vietnam, however.... Contempt for our actions in Vietnam may be
legitimately grounded in fact, but censure from a Frenchman on that 
score is truly almost more contemptible. Vietnam as a modern nation
state and a wartorn hellhole is a direct product of French imperialism.
We entered very late in the game, after France had sucked all the
profit she could from the place. The establishment of an incredibly
corrupt, Francophone Catholic elite in Saigon was likewise, France's
doing. The Thieu government was comprised of this elite group. 
	We have made shameful use of existing corrupt elites throughout
the Americas - but have rarely stooped to creating them. The creation of
such local elites, however, was codified policy in France during the
colonial period. Morally this is a rather small distinction, but 
in practice the creation of such Europeanized elites has done more
than almost anything else to breed a (frequently legitimate) hatred
of all things western among people in former colonies.

>  I'd like you to mention new american WASP movements, official censorship,
>commonplace segregation.... And, contrarily to what you may think from your
>overseas home, europeans DO NOT "promulgate a euro-pure [...] self-image".
>But it IS true that we use other countries as examples of what one mustn't do.
>And, sadly, US often comes in front.

	M. Maillet, the above is largely either untrue or hopelessly
pompous. If your last sentence above does not constitute promulgation
of an overly self-satisfied image of yourself and your compatriots,
then I don't know what does. 
	There are not really such things as WASP movements, though I
know what it is that you are trying to get at with the phrase. There are
white-supremacist and far right movements in the States which parallel
contemporary Neo-Nazi movements in Europe. They are significantly more
marginal than many similar groups in Europe. Among the upfront racists,
only Pat Buchanan has ever attained a degree of 'legitimacy' and public
following to match that which Le Pen has in your country. David Duke
achieved a brief notoriety when it appear that he might win the 
governorship of Louisiana, but was soundly defeated by the blacks of
Louisiana, who came out in record numbers to quash him. (He recieved
~30% of the total vote, 55% of the white vote.)  Fortunately, they
have that ability. The targets of Le Pen's racism are largely non-voting,
non-citizens, unable to defend themselves in such a way.
	De Facto segregation is commonplace in the States. It is also
commonplace in Europe, and in both regions is largely fueled by income
inequities. It is injurious to racial harmony - in both regions. It is
both a product of and a producer of further inequity - in both regions.
Did you really want to discuss it in an honest fashion? A comparative
discussion say, of its effects in both Europe and America?
>
>|> In addition to this overt resurgence in ugly authoritarianism
>|> and racism, the bourgeoisie of western Europe have quietly, continuously
>|> benefitted from neo-colonial 'wealth creation' throughout the post-war
>|> era, in tandem with us in the States. You're a 'soiled dove' my dear.
>
>  Are you able to make your point without insulting someone? Or is it so much
>in your blood that you cannot help it?
>
>								Z.
	After quietly watching the display of smug Yank-bashing put
on by contributors to s.c.f this past month, I find my desire for
diplomacy is at a low ebb.


--
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|| Holly Silva			I have nothing terribly clever to say||
|| Applied Earth Sciences	today.  You're in luck.		     ||
|| Stanford University						     ||