From: kcy@meaddata.com (Cheong Yu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: I will accept DMC's challenge!! (was Re: DMC vs. Harper)
Date: 3 Jan 1993 04:47:37 GMT
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
NNTP-Posting-Host: monster.meaddata.com

In article <1993Jan1.132437.775@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>In article <1hvqecINNgaf@agate.berkeley.edu>, jeff@emily10.Berkeley.EDU (Jeffrey C. Ely) writes:
>> I want to see this match.  We will all see that DMC is not a chess player
>> and he'll have to go find some other group to annoy.
>
>If YOU are so sure I can't play, why don't YOU accept the challenge???
>
>Jeff, (and all others like him) you sig line should read:
>
>"Another all-talk blowhard"
>
>I am willing to place my checkbook on the line--are YOU? Bruce wasn't,
>Sven is going to do his best to weasel out of it, and YOU will, I bet,
>foloow suit.

I haven't been following all the articles in this flame war, so I
might not know what I'm about to get into.

It seems to me that you (DMC) are making this challenge (playing Bruce
or Sven in person) knowing that they aren't willing to meet you in
person (either that they don't want to meet you or aren't willing to
risk a plane ticket, etc.).  This may be a legitimate challenge or it
may be a bluff (you did say you were a lawyer, so you should have
plenty of practice in carefully wording your arguments).

Since I live in Dayton, Ohio, which is only a few hours drive from
Toledo, I will accept the challenge.  I will offer to drive to the
Univ. of Toledo and play you a three game match.  I would rather play
a match than a single game, because I want to make sure I gain
something from the trip.  However, I'm only rated about 1650 USCF, so
I'm even more worthless than non-GM Bruce Harper :-).  Since you're
willing to play someone of Bruce's strength (an Expert or Master, I
forget which), you should have an easy time beating a Class B player
like me.  If you win the match (which you should, considering your
strength), you can post the games here with appropriate analysis so
that I and the rest of the readers can learn from the games.  (Post
mortem analysis is standard tournament ettiquite, don't you agree?).
If I should win the match by some miracle (I have never beaten an
Expert or Master), I would post the games and the analysis would
probably be more worthless than GM Benjamin's of FS II. :-)

So how about it, DMC?  I would save you a plane ticket because I would
be willing to drive to Toledo.  Do you want to play?

>
>> 
>> Now both of you are dismayed at the other declining the match which means
>> that each of you are willing to play.  Why doesn't one of you name a specific
>> day and time to play a game on ICS.  If the other fails to show up, then the 
>> argument can be considered settled.  So.. How about it!?  
>
>If you, or anyone else can answer me two things, I'll gladly play ANYONE on
>ICS:
>
>1. How is a modem/fiber linkup going to 'prove' I know how to play chess? How
>can ANY of you assure I just won't be dialed in on my 386 while my 486 runs a
>chess program at max skill??? (Use your brains people, you can't.) So, even if
>I win, people like YOU and SVEN and BRUCE will STILL claim I don't know how to
>play.
>

** Obligatory chess discussion follows **

A person can "prove" that he/she knows how to play chess by playing a
game against another person/machine and then provide analysis,
annotations, commentaries, etc. so others can critique them.  (I think
GM Benjiman can "prove" that he knows how to play.)

I think that the original challenge made by Bruce was to play via this
newsgroup in a correspondence game.  I'm not sure how up-to-date you
are with computer chess development, but it's a known fact that
computers are *weakest* when playing at correspondence chess time
limits.  This was proven when IM Mike Valvo soundly beat Deep Thought
in a correspondence match.  So Bruce didn't have to worry that he was
playing against a computer.

However, on ICS at tournament time limits, a computer can beat a
Master, but a computer is very weak at providing analysis and
annotations other than spitting out a bunch of variations and
assigning it a numerical rating.

>2. What does my ability to play have to ANYTHING with the issues I raise? Are
>you 'people' so damned egotistic that you believe only a GM or IM can have a
>valid opinion on an issue??? No wonder you bought Benjie's article
>wholesale--you are too wrapped up in titles to, just for one second, realize
>that a GM is only an expert at ONE thing. And that one thing is playing chess.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>NOT commenting on other GMs games. NOT international politics. NOT the law. NOT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>ANYTHING except playing chess. Suppose Bruce trounces me wholesale? So what?
>Does that prove I don't know how to play? Does it mean the issues on policies
>and law I raised are invalid? If I beat Benjamin Himself, would that make his
>views wrong and mine right?

Didn't someone bring up the analogy that an artist can give a better
opinion about art than an art critic could?  So couldn't a GM can give
a better opinion about chess than someone like me?  Since I can't play
chess as well as GM Benjiman, I don't think I could find faults in his
"art" or his analysis.

>
> [discussion about Sven and Bruce deleted to save bandwidth :-)]
>
>Sure, I'd GLADLY play him over the fibers IF there were some way of proving no
>one/thing was giving me moves. That way, even if I lost, I would still shame
>him into admitting that his 'expert opinion' was flat out wrong.
>
>I want to humiliate that man to the very last degree. So, if any of you can
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>come up with an honesty assurance program, the match WILL happen.
>

I must agree that some of the flames that were directed at DMC were
very rude and childish and uncalled for.  Everyone is entitled to an
opinion!!  But openly admitting that you want to "humiliate Bruce to
the very last degree"?  Aren't you going overboard, too?

>(And, I refuse to accept Harper's claim that he trusts me to be honest. If he
>trusted me, he never would have posted his 'belief' that I could not play a
>second time!)
>
>
>> 
>> By the way, anyone got a good library of rating supplements?  What's DMC's 
>> rating?  Elliot?
>
>You won't find me in there. It has been too long since I have played a
>tournament.
>

Didn't someone posted that the USCF kept a database of all players who
were ever rated?  Are there any USCF representatives on the Usenet who
can confirm/deny this?

So DMC hasn't played a tournament game in years (20 years, maybe).
I propose a DMC vs. Harper match, first to win 10 games, draws not
counting, and DMC retains the title in a 9-9 tie. :-) :-)

--
Cheong Yu             |                        |        (513) 865-7048
Mead Data Central     |                        |   Fax: (513) 865-1755
P.O. Box 933          |                        |      kcy@meaddata.com
Dayton, Ohio  45401   |                        |    uunet!meaddata!kcy


--
Cheong Yu             |                        |        (513) 865-7048
Mead Data Central     |                        |   Fax: (513) 865-1755
P.O. Box 933          |                        |      kcy@meaddata.com
Dayton, Ohio  45401   |                        |    uunet!meaddata!kcy