From: doel@ausable.crd.ge.com (Michael Doel)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.elections
Subject: Re: Passing out Condoms  (Was Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT)
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:10:28 GMT
Reply-To: doel@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Research & Development

In article <1992Aug25.170206.21663@ornl.gov>, de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
> In article <1992Aug25.131123.24352@crd.ge.com>, doel@ausable.crd.ge.com (Michael Doel) writes:
> >
> >Better yet is not having sex at all.  Too often the advocates of condom
> >distribution seem to refuse the best alternative.
> 
> And suicide is the best cure for cancer.  Sometimes the cure is worse than the
> disease.

I hope you were joking or trying to be sarcastic here.  Obviously the best
cure for cancer is remission of the disease.


> >Of course condom use is better than sex without a condom,
> 
> Well, err, maybe *you* prefer sex with a condom to sex without, but *I*
> don't.  :-)
> 
> >but it's not the best choice in most cases (remember, we're talking school
> >kids here).
> 
> Excluding abstinance as a solution, what *is* "the best choice"?

Why do you exclude abstinence?  I'll admit that if you do have sex, using
a condom is the best way to prevent pregnancy and the spread of disaese.
But noone is forcing people to have sex.  People won't die if they don't
have sex before the age of 18.  People can be taught restraint and abstinence.



> >If we don't feel protected by a condom, we shouldn't be handing them out to
> >kids as a protective device.
> 
> If they'd save lives, we should be handing them out unless there's a better
> protective device.  Holding the moral high ground at the expense of the lives
> of our youth is unacceptable.

I'm not trying to "hold the moral high ground."  While it's true that my
values system says that teenage sex is wrong, much of my argument is strictly
pragmatic.  If condoms were 98% reliable, most of my pragmatic arguments
would be lost.  But they're not.  Most sources I've seen indicate that
condoms fail between 10 and 25 percent of the time.  I happen to think that
the best way to save lives is to teach kids not to have sex indiscriminately.


> >We should encourage the kids to refrain from the dangerous behavior.
> 
> Absolutely!  But how?  Not by wagging our fingers at them and saying "no, no,
> no--mustn't do *that*".  We need *good* sex education, regardless of what the
> prudes say.

The "just say no" campaign against drug use is nowhere near as patronizing
as that.  Likewise, a "just say no" campaign against teenage sex should
emphasize facts and present abstinence as the best alternative.  Public pressure
can have a positive impact.  For example, consider the campaign against
smoking.  Public service announcements have been going on for years and
slowly but surely the number of smokers has come down.



> >My point is that emotion should be involved with sexual activity.
> 
> WRONG!  *You* may think that's necessary, but I don't.  If sufficient care
> is given to preventing AIDS transmission, adequate birth control is used,
> and all parties are aware of the risks, what's wrong with recreational sex? 
> Nothing.  Now, your personal beliefs might impart a value judgement on
> recreational sex, but that's certainly not something the government can or
> should impose on the people.  EVEN IF THE MAJORITY HOLDS THOSE SAME
> BELIEFS--you have no right to impose your sensibilites on others.

I'm not saying we should "impose" abstinence on people.  I'm just asking that
condoms not be handed out in schools and that a public service campaign
should be started to teach kids that abstinence is the best way to avoid
unwanted pregnancies and STDs.  That's hardly imposing my sensibilities
on someone else.


> >People may disagree on whether or not premarital sex is bad, but just
> >about everyone I know would agree that if a couple has premarital sex,
> >there should be a level of commitment higher than "we talked at a party
> >for a couple of hours."
> 
> Sounds like you hang with a pretty uptight crowd.

Was this a joke?  I know of no civilization (save Soddom & Gommorah) that
actually looks favorably on promiscuity.  We may disagree on where the
line should be drawn, but I think most people would consider the above
(having sex with someone you've only known a few hours) to be promiscuous.


> >Simply cutting down on the number of sexual partners people have would
> >go a long way towards halting the spread of AIDS and teenage pregnancy.
> >The best way to accomplish this is to encourage abstinance.
> 
> WRONG!  Given the choice between abstinance and sex, many people will choose
> the latter.  :-)  What we need to do is educate teens in the hazards of sex
> (babies, AIDS, etc.) and the ways to avoid those hazards (abstinance, condoms,
> fewer partners).  Forewarned is forearmed, and given this information *many*
> more will choose a safer path.  Preaching abstinance and the evils of
> premarital sex won't help those who choose not to abstain.

No it won't, but those people will be able to go to the drug store and get
condoms for themselves.  There's no reason why they need them handed to
them at school.


> >I'm not saying that teaching about condom use and availability isn't
> >important.  I just don't think that handing them out in schools sends the
> >right message.
> 
> Message, shmessage.  You don't want *your* kids to have access to condoms? 
> Move to some fascist or totalitarian country that, unlike the US, isn't free
> and doesn't treat its citizens like intelligent beings.

Again, you're misrepresenting my words.  I'm not for denying anyone access
to condoms.  I just don't think they need to be given out in the schools.
As to "treating its citizens like intelligent beings", which sounds more
mature:

   a) sex is an emotional, adult act whose negative side effects (STDs,
      unwanted pregnancies) can best be avoided by abstinence.  Other than
      that, a condom is the best defense.

or

   b) we know you people are virtually incapable abstaining from sex,
      so wear these condoms when you do and hope they don't break.

Handing out condoms in schools is a result of (b).  A "just say no" campaign
with condoms readily available in drugstores is the result of (a).
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Doel				<doel@crd.ge.com>
P.O. Box 8
Schenectady, NY 12301			(518) 387-6203

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat
 and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
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