HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Jewish nose myth
From: EXTDSM@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (MADDISON,David)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:41:20 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <Dec11.231930.43105@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> mk568652@longs.lance.colostate.edu writes:

> Can anyone explain how this myth got started ?
 
I already posted this on Oct 14, 1992 but the nose thread seems to have come 
up again in a big way so here is a rehash of what I posted before. This may be
of help.


This is from an article quoted from the daily "Did You Know" column in THE AGE
newspaper (21 May 92, Melbourne, Australia) and written by Graeme Donald.

"...the so-called Jewish nose is a figment of the anti-semitic imagination.
Such shaped noses are more prevalent in other racial groups, notably native
Americans. A US survey established that only 12 per cent of New York Jews
posessed the "typical nose", which on the other hand was to be found in about
80 per cent of American Indians."

David Maddison
Melbourne, Australia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Subject: Re: A self-confessed silly thread: Jewish Rock/Pop Stars
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 04:35:26 GMT

> >>Barry Manilow
> >>Barbra Streisand
> >>Neil Diamond
> >>Danny Elfman (drummer, Oingo Boingo)
> Howard Kaylan and Mark Volman (The Turtles, Flo and Eddie)
> Dick Dale (60's surf guitarist)
> Max Weinberg (drummer for the E Street Band)
> Rachel Sweet
> Phil Spector (producer of the Ronettes, Righteous Brothers et al...)
Billy Joel
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Haftorah Reading May 21, 1994
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 06:35:28 GMT

In article <9212232143.AA24587@cyclone.sbi.com> <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)> writes:
>ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>
>> Another nice custom I have seen is a bar/bat mitzvah ceremony at
>> age 83.  Since we are allotted 70 years, each year thereafter is
>> like a new life, and so at 83 we are, G-d willing, ready for a
>> second B. Mitzvah.
>
>I have seen (perhaps in the Mishnah Brurah, I'll have to double check)
>that one occasion for a se`udat mitzvah is a person's 70th birthday.
>I have never heard of anyone actually having one (the meal, not the
>birthday).  Has anyone else?  Did you attend it?

Another custom I've actually observed, when one turns 70, is to
adopt a new Hebrew name.  Sometimes it's a version of the original
name, perhaps with an al'te added, other times it's really a new name.

I never thought much about the reason for this, but something which
occured to a cousin about 5 years ago made me think.  My cousin
had to have a leg amputated, and it was buried, and after that he
adopted a new Hebrew name.  He said this was an old custom to fool
the angel of death who tried once, but only got his leg.

Could this also be the reason for adopting a new name at 70?
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de
Subject: Re: Twatology (was Andy the Canadian twat)
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:55:42 GMT

In article <199212211320.AA16864@das.wang.com>, MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
> In: <102586@netnews.upenn.edu>
> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) wrote:
>  Subject: Re: Andy the Canadian twat
> 
>>In article <1992Dec18.044635.18892@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>, ecl@cbnewsj (Evelyn C.
>>>As a woman reader of s.c.j, I find the use of the word "twat" in this
>>>context (and indeed, in any context) offensive, and would ask that
>>>posters refrain from using it.
>>
>>It's also atrocious grammar.  The masculine is twit.
> 
> As I  cannot even claim  E.S.L. (English  Second Language) for  me but
> rather the E.F.L. (F standing for  Fourth), I should not stick my head
> out and argue with a grammarian like Matthew.  But if "twit" refers to
> a person  having certain characteristics,  would not "twat", in  it is
> past form of "twit", refer to a person who in the past was a twit, but
> has since reformed?
> 
>>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
> 
>   Hag Sameah,
> 
>   Michael Shimshoni

No

Laurence

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Conversations with an Apostate (was Re: Conversations with a Rabbi)
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:51:00 GMT

In article <765343d249630t219@witsend.uucp> "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
>  In case this is too abstract to register, we have found that
>  some people (Sam Saal, for instance, or the RAMBAM) have
>  proven to be much more reliable than the J4Js.

Damning with faint praise, to be sure. I mean no disrespect to
Mr. Saal, kal v'chomer I mean no disrespect to the Rambam, but
frankly, yer not saying much. I find Velikovsky, or Lysenko, or
Andrew "Dice" Clay to be more reliable than the J4Js.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923)
Subject: Re: Chanuka sa-mei-ach?
Organization: NetCom -- OnLine Communication Services
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:09:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.161013.10974@linus.mitre.org> jls@mbunix.mitre.org (Segal) writes:
>Assuming that sa-mei-ach is being used as a stative verb, we note that
>Chanuka is a feminine noun!!
>
>Chanuka Sameiach can't be correct!! -- maybe se-mei-cha!

Well, it's like this -- the "correct" greeting is `Chag Channukah Sameach',
in which `Channukah' is used as an adjective modifying `chag' (which `chag'?
`Channukah'). Thus, `sameach' is in gender-agreement with the subject,
`chag'.

Jonathan B. Horen       | A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes,
SysAdmin/SrTechWriter   | but to get in accord with them; they are 
Tel: (408) 736-3923     | legitimately what directs his conduct in the world.
Email: horen@netcom.com |                     -- Sigmund Freud
From: sg04@gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Re^2: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:21:54 GMT
Reply-To: sg04@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Inc.

In article 4350@novavax.UUCP, mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman) writes:
]When the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law
]respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
]exercise thereof....",  I see that as meaning that *no* religion
]ought to be given more credence--officially--than any other.
] 
]Permitting the Lubavitchers to put up a menorah in a public
]place--and permitting the KKK to put up a cross--does indeed make
]"Judeo-Christianity" out to be the Unied States' official,
]government-sanctioned religion. 

Obviously many do not see it this way. I believe that any reasonable
reader of the establishment clause would conclude that what
Jefferson intended was the establishment of an official state
religion. 

One cannot read this law so broadly as to ban religion to the
private domain. When a person exercizes his right to religion,
(the first part of the 1st amendment) this can occur either
privately or publicly. The mere fact a religious act is done
publicly does not make part of an official religion. Any more
than playing baseball publicly makes baseball the official state
sanctioned sport (even though tax dollars do go to baseball in
the form of publicly supported stadiums).

Thus, the state can give permission for individuals to perform
religious acts in the public domain, and this should not be
considered the establishment of a state religion. A state religion
is when one particular religion is given preference in the legal
statutes beyond the rights of other religions (I.e. I think
what the constitution was tring to avoind was the official
Church of England approach).





-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Summary: More to the point ...
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:02:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.030813.4398@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
> In article <1992Dec21.211721.24659@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
> >This country was founded with a belief in God.
> 
> False.

More to the point - and to avoid debates and the dragging out of
conflicting biographies:
   
    Even if true - so what?


marc colten


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu (Sean Philip Engelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jesus: Would he support the Turks or Armenians?
Date: 21 Dec 1992 10:16:08 -0500
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Distribution: world
Reply-To: engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: fridge.ai.cs.yale.edu


In article <3092@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) writes:
|> In <1992Dec17.054957.24748@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
|> 
|>     The real question should be, if there was a Jesus, where was he during the
|>     genocide of the Armenians? 
|> 
|> 
|> And what does he think of Mutlu?

And would he like latkes?


-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520
From: pinkas@skywalker.intel.com (Israel Pinkas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Feld Fraud?
Date: 29 Dec 92 01:01:28 GMT
	<1992Dec28.175036.2835@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
	<1992Dec28.184927.10839@netcom.com>
Organization: Software Technologies, INTeL Corporation, Santa Clara, CA


I've seen a number of items here.  I don't want to make a career of
answering questions about this, though.


strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

> Hillel Markowitz quotes some anonymous messages we've read before,
> claiming the Felds are shackled hand and foot.
>
> Those messages were the basis for the doubt that's arisen. So was
> another message claiming they've been shackled in this way for
> a month, and thus unable to lay tefillin.
>
> Anonymous, unattributed messasges don't prove anything. Those familiar
> with jails  and jail practice in California find the claims simply
> not credible. That's raised questions about the whole affair.
>
> Repeating the messages that gave rise to the suspicion as
> evidence to refute the suspicion doesn't quite cut it.
>
> I've put in a call to Palo Alto Chabad, and expect to have the facts
> first-hand soon.

I know Rabbi Yosef Levin first hand and daven at Chabad of Palo Alto
occasionally.  In the last few weeks, I have heard the following directly
from Rabbi Levin:

1. He will probably not return any calls on this matter.  The office is a
   little overwhelmed by the matter, and they have already had some crank
   calls.

2. The Feld's bail was reduced recently.  I believe that the figure was
   $750,000 each.  They have almost raised it.  (They don't want to deal
   with a bond, as that would cost them the 10%.)

3. They are shackled hand and foot WHILE WITH VISITORS.  This is standard
   practice in CA for "dangerous criminals".  Attempted murder falls into
   this category.  The shackles prevent full movement, but are not overly
   restrictive.  The way Rabbi Levin described them, the foot shackles are
   light weight, with about 18" of chain between them.  The hand shackles
   chain the hands to a chain belt with about 12" of chain.  This is enough
   for general movement, but not enough to put on tefilin.

   When they are in their cells, they are not shackled.  Even though they
   are shackled, there is bulletproof glass between them and the visitors.

   Rabbi Levin is the Jewish chaplain for Santa Clara County.  He has
   arranged for people to go to the jail on a daily basis to help the Felds
   put on tefilin, light chanukah candles, etc.  (Rabbi Levin needs to go
   for tefilin, as he is one of the few people that can be in the same room
   with them.)

   I believe that he has made arrangements for food.  I haven't heard the
   details.

   SOP for CA jails is to separate the accused.  The Felds are on different
   floors in the jail.

4. Rabbi Levin has never stated that they are not guilty.  He said that
   they are not criminals.  There is a difference.

-Israel Pinkas
--
Israel Pinkas		pinkas@stps18.intel.com		408-765-4210

	"Everybody's askaird of death, until it hits you ...
	 then you don't care"		-Archie Bunker
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923)
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: NetCom -- OnLine Communication Services
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:13:06 GMT

Please post responses to this, and other related subjects, to the correct
forum -- talk.politics.mideast -- soc.culture.jewish is a forum for the
expression and exchange of information, ideas, and opinions about
*Judaism*, not Israeli (or any other) politics.

It's hard enough avoiding the quarterly O-C-R conflicts; we can easily
do without secularly-political ones.

Jonathan B. Horen       | A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes,
SysAdmin/SrTechWriter   | but to get in accord with them; they are 
Tel: (408) 736-3923     | legitimately what directs his conduct in the world.
Email: horen@netcom.com |                     -- Sigmund Freud
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Date: 28 Dec 92 21:56:07
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Dec26.092545.16601@eng.umd.edu> <4339@novavax.UUCP>
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: mitch@novavax.UUCP's message of 28 Dec 92 20:48:28 GMT

In article <4339@novavax.UUCP> mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman) writes:

				      Oddly enough, I find I prefer
   the Conservative liturgy to the Reform, though being a
   Reconstructionist who was nine or ten before my family left the
   Conservative synagogue we used to attend, perhaps this is not so
   surprising--but I digress) though I have no illusions about my
   prayers influencing any sort of deity.

Interesting.  While I don't particularly enjoy going to shul, I do
prefer the businesslike atmosphere of an Orthodox synagogue to the
churchlike atmosphere at many Conservative and Reform ones.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write lpf@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin)
Subject: Nazi Jokes (?)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 04:48:45 GMT


I agree with the person that said that the words joke and Holocaust
don't belong together, so, as an alternative I think this title would be
better. If you don't like this one, make up another one.

Thanks,
Dima
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
  dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: A self-confessed silly thread: Jewish Rock/Pop Stars
Date: 4 Jan 93 00:50:00 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan3.180442.23504@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
>
>I don't think you get it.  He would have had bad feelings if it were
>the case that Cat Stevens converted from Judaism to Islam (or to
>Christianity, or to Zoroastroism (?sp), or Buddism etc) since it is
>considered a cardinal sin in Judaism to convert to another religion.
>He was not singling out Islam.

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood because it was unclear.  What is the
punishment for such a "cardinal sin" of converting from Judaism to
another religion?

>Also as I remember it, Yousef Islam was allowed into Israel when he
>came to visit.  He even made the requisite propaganda speeches after
>his visit criticizing the Israel occupation blah, blah, blah.

This is from an article in the Rocky Mountain News of July, 1990:

	"Islam irked by airport incident"

	"Former pop singer Cat Stevens, now known as Yusuf Islam,
	said yesterday in London that Israeli authorities expelled
	him without explanation after holding him and his son at
	the airport and searching his belongings.  Islam said in a
	statement he endured a 'three-hour ordeal' while his luggage
	was 'ripped apart'.  He said he arrived at Ben-Gurion Airport
	on July 1 with his 5-year-old son, Muhammad, to attend a
	Moslem folk festival."

Now let's see your evidence to support your statement.

After such an experience do you think he should praise Israel?  Or is
every Muslim, who wants to enter the Holy Land, suspected of being a
terrorist?  His statements aside from this ordeal, stems from the anger
of the injustices on Palestinian Muslims from the Israeli government
and its oppressive policies.  As a good and devote Muslim, he certainly
takes the following hadith to heart, "Whosoever of you sees an evil action,
let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with
his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart - and that
is the weakest of faith."
 
>If Yousef Islam considers Islamic & Muslim charities to include paying
>the reward money for Salman Rushdie's assasination, I think the world
>can do without this kind of "charity".

Iran has issued the reward - it has not asked Muslims to contribute
to the expense.  Only to the justice.
 
Anisa

	"Find your sisters and brothers who can hear all the
	truth in what you say.  They can support you when you're
	on your way."	[Shaking The Tree]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Avi Frydman)
Subject: Re: Latkes (was Re: Ascii Chanukah symbols?)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:22:26 GMT


In article <1992Dec30.172016.8720@speedy.aero.org>, 
nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes...

>  We ate them sprinkled with sugar.  I've
>never run into anyone else who does this outside of my family and some old
>family friends so it may be unique to people from Kovno, Lithuania.  
>
We also sprinkled sugar on them in my family.  They were from Czestachovah,
Poland (Galizianers!--we loved SWEET Gefilte Fish!).

My wife's family are New Yorkers who use applesauce (usually homemade) and
sour cream. They are quite health conscious and sugar is "traife" as far as
they are concerned.  I haven't used sugar (openly) in 17 years!  However, when
I "sleepwalk" during Chanukah and raid the refridgerator late at night...

Avi
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Deportations provoke crisis
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:44:18 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Dec19.220733.14495@sarah.albany.edu>, mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
> In article <92354.0614272893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>                MASS DEPORTATIONS PERPETUATE CRISIS SITUATION
> 
> 
> Tell you what, then.
> 
> Let's make an experiment. Let's hand Andy over to the Hamasis and see
> if he lasts any longer than that policeman did.


Wouldn't that be cruel and unusual punishment ? 
FOR THE HAMAS !!  :-)
Andy would probably drive them to suicide.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.Il






> 
> That way he can try out his appeasement strategies first hand, with
> his own welfare at stake, rather than that of folks who don't have the
> luxury of residing in Canada.
> 
> My guess is that they won't work.
> 
> --Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Kosher question
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 23:00:20 GMT

In article <2505@itexjct.jct.ac.il> warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein) writes:
>In <C0AGBn.ME8@cs.columbia.edu> kasdan@cs.columbia.edu (John Kasdan) writes:
>
>>Are the Kosher laws cumulative?  For example, if I eat a ham and
>>cheese sandwich am I violating BOTH the law against eating ham AND the
>>law against eating meat with milk, or does the fact that pork is treif
>>mean that it doesn't count as meat for the purpose of the prohibition
>>of meat with milk?
>
>The answer is "it depends".  I do think that in the case of meat and
>milk, both need to be kosher to be prohibited under "meat and milk".
>However other combinations of violations may be concocted.

I remember learning that the "meat & milk" one only applies to kosher
meat; thus, ham, and nonkosher beef, etc., don't apply. But I may be
wrong.

>Another answer is "it usually doesn't matter"...

Ah, but it *does* matter. The milk/meat prohibition is stronger than
other kashrut rules; one may not eat, cook, or derive benefit from a
combination of milk and meat (the other prohibitions are generally
against eating, but nothing else). So, if I remember correctly, one
*may* cook a cheeseburger (for a goy, natch), provided the meat isn't
kosher. One may also derive benefit from these combinations, e.g. one
may feed them to animals, etc.

Usual disclaimer: All of the above IMNRO.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Originator: schwartz@baba
Reply-To: schwartz@nynexst.com
Organization: Expert Systems Lab., NYNEX Sci. and Tech., White Plains NY
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 19:29:18 GMT


In article <1992Dec21.175723.8150@sarah.albany.edu>, mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
> The thing that gets me about this issue of religious versus secular is
> that many Christian-associated religious images are treated as secular.
> 
> Public figures have started to refer to Christmas trees as "seasonal
> trees," and they are commonly displayed in public places, including
> the White House. And many towns have Santa Clauses and the like
> adorning their lamp posts.
> 
> But as soon as the symbol is Jewish, they call it religious.

Someone please verify or villify.

I was at a shul elsewhere this past Shabbat.  The rav, during his drasha
(sermon?), complained that Lubavitch had argued--successfully--before
the Supreme Court that the menorah was a secular, not religious, symbol,
and could therefore be displayed in public as could a tree (as opposed
to a creche).

Truth or dare?
-- 
Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory
schwartz@nynexst.com		NYNEX Science and Technology Center
PROFS: SCHWARTZ@UNIX		500 Westchester Avenue
914-644-2960			White Plains NY 10604
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Solomon Perel
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:34:59 GMT

In article <NgsawB3w165w@valpso.hanse.de> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
(Manfredo Tichauer) writes:

>Salomon Perel came this year to Germany and gave many  interviews on TV.
>He also met with some of his old "HJ (Hitler Youth) friends" and when they
>were asked, they corroborated that they never new nor thought that he was

I saw the film and thought it was not only a very well done (and
exciting) film. but an important one, as well.  What I found most
interesting was that this critically aclaimed film was not submited by
Germany as a candidate for best oreign film.  Apparently, it was too
embarrassing.  The film they did submit, BTW, was nowhere near the
quality as evidenced by the fact that it wasn't even nominated for an
award. I suspect this one would at least have won a  nomination.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish