From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Intellectually Challenging moments in Modern history
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 27 Jul 92 19:48:06 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

Please do not crosspost my articles to talk.abortion.

In article <1992Jul27.172042.297942@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
> In article <mykes.0acg@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> #In article <1992Jul27.034354.27753@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
> ## mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> ## ] Women were never ever made criminals.  Doctors were held responsible.
> ## ] This is before Roe, since there has been ZERO legislation against
> ## ] abortion in the 20 years since.
> ##
> ##
> ## don't get out in the big world a whole lot now do you?
> ##
> ## forget about a place called pennsylvania?
> #
> #According to a consortium of 8+ pro-abortion interest groups, only
> #25 states are likely to outlaw abortion altogether.  Less than
> #10 would make it 100% unregulated as per Roe.  The rest of the
> #states would allow reasonable limitations on abortion.  This
> #is "if Roe is overturned" by the supreme court.  My source is
> #Time Magazine, which published the data as a map of the US
> #with each state in a specific color.  The data was based upon
> #pre-Roe laws, current opinions of state leadership, and other
> #laws on the books.
>
> Poor Schwartz is determined to prove that he can't read, isn't he?
>
> I have the Time magazine here in front of me.  21 states have
> abortion bans on their books.  (The data was compiled by NARAL,
> which is not a consortium of anything, it's a single organization.)
> Nine states are listed as having no restrictions.
>

> NARAL (as was reported in the article) predicts that seven states
> will keep abortion legal, and thirteen are likely to ban abortion
> outright.
>

Personal attack again.  I say less than 10 and you say 7.  Sounds
damn accurate to me.


> #Now, tell me how Pennsylvania passed a law making abortion
> #100% illegal?  Or shut the hell up.
>
> No one said that it had.  You said that "there has been ZERO
> legislation against abortion", which is clearly wrong.
> Pennsylvania's law outlawed third trimester abortions
> in most cases and restricted access.
>

By whose definition is 3rd trimester "abortion" an abortion?
Not the supreme court.  Viability is defined to be 24 weeks,
and the state was granted the right to outlaw what you claim
to be abortion.

To quote from Roe:

          { (c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in
     promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may,
     if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except
     where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the
     preservation of the life or health of the mother.


> ## forget about a place called guam....
> ##
> #
> #Same is true of guam.
>
> Read Guam's law, Schwartz.  Read Utah's law.  Read Guam's law.
> These have all been passed since 1989.  These laws
> prohibit most abortions.
>
> ## and why is it that now when AntiAboritonistsRhetoriticianists
> ## rattle on about abortion laws, they do not talk in terms
> ## of returning to the days before R.v.W -
> ##
> #
> #I talk about the days before Roe quite a bit.  Obviously you
> #have missed my posts.  Before Roe, abortion was legal in the
> #US.  There were 500,000 legal (repeat LEGAL) abortions in
> #the US - 1/3 of the number we have with Roe legalized abortions.
> #I also say that if Roe is overturned by the supreme court,
> #which I don't see happening, abortion will still be legal,
> #just as it was before Roe.
>
> Abortion was legal in some states under many circumstances and
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> illegal in most.  You have an odd way of using the language,
> to say the least.
>

No, I said the same thing you did.  "Abortion was legal" before
Roe.  It was NOT illegal in every state, hence it was available
to those who sought it - just not in every woman's back yard
to make it as convenient as possible.  The way you use the
english language makes it sound as if abortion was 100%
illegal in every state before Roe which is FALSE.

> #Tell me why the people of 25 states vote for government that
> #would make abortion illegal?  Or shut the hell up.
>
> Twenty-one states have governors who would sign laws
> criminalizing abortion.  In fifteen states both houses
> of the state legislature would criminalize abortion.
> (Eleven of these are overlap.)  If one counts states
> in which the governor is anti-abortion (but the legislatures
> are not) and states where the legislatures are anti-
> abortion (but the governors are not), then one arrives
> at your number of 25.  I can't see how a state which
> elected a governor who openly supports legal abortion
> while also electing a state house which does not (such
> as NJ) can be considered as a state that voted for
> "government that would make abortion illegal."
>

Ah, so now you see that I can read.  I said 25, and you
read the same article and arrive at the same figure.

> It may come as a surprise to you, but most people don't
> vote as single-issue voters on abortion.
>

No, it comes as no surprise to me.  It says a lot about
how important the issue really is to those voters, though.



> ## but instead speak in terms of "abortion is murder" and
> ## seek to criminalize it to a level it never knew before.....
> ##
> #
> #I have, in the past, said that abortion is murder.  But that
> #is MY opinion.  Do you deny me the right to MY opinion?  Are
> #you that much a facsist?  You would censor me?
>
> Paranoia can be treated, Schwartz.

No, I am not paranoid.  He can't censor me.  Obviously, he would
if he could.

>
> #What I only want to write about, since I will not convince
> #YOU abortion is murder nor do I even care to try at all,
> #is that the Supreme Court has NO business deciding the
> #question "what is life?"  If you and I had to decide,
> #we could come to no conclusion...
>
> So, do you support laws which would enshrine your opinion
> into law?
>

My opinion is clear.  Abortion is murder.  However, I would
not enshrine that into law.  Your opinion is that abortion
is NOT murder, yet your opinion is enshrined into law.  Equity?

> ## So Mike, step back, get out of your pleasant little
> ## cozy hovel in Los Altos and see what is going on
> ## out there in the big world...
> ##
> #
> #OK, a resort to personal attack?  Where did you learn to
> #debate?
>
> Where did you learn to read?
>

Chalk one up for your side.  I can neither read or write.
Pass me a crayola please.

> I'd suggest that you read a bit more before you start
> citing "facts."
>

Facts aren't facts if you don't agree.  Too bad.

> ## then figure out which side of the liberty issue
> ## you want to be on....
> ##
> #
> #I already know what side of the liberty issue I want to be on.
> #I say that the state or feds should not be allowed to preclude
> #a woman from traveling anywhere she wants (i.e. to a state
> #where it is legal) to have her abortion.  That is totally
> #consistent with the 14th ammendment.
>
> Pathetic.  A woman's right to bodily autonomy should depend
> on geography, Schwartz?
>

A woman's right to bodily autonomy?  Gosh, my position is
quite moderate.  Yours is intolerant.

> Susan
>
>
>

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

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