From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:14:28 GMT
	<722002828snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz>
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz's message of 17 Nov 92 12:20:28 GMT


In article <722002828snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry) writes:

   Yo Mary!

   In a wiseass mood again...? 8-)  

Perenially ;-)

   In article <MARY.92Nov15113437@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM writes:

    > SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money.  Some don't.  
    > Of those who do, some make a profit.  Some don't.

   Fair enough.  I was talking from my references, which included about 4
   people who's sempai didn't make a profit, and about 20 who's sempai did.

Think you mean "sensei"?

   Make bad odds...  You tell me.  If it makes a difference, the two areas
   I was staying were Harbour City (LA, Cal) and New York (NY, NY :)

Well...but consider also that the commercial schools are the easiest to
find -- they put a lot of energy into making sure that you know about
them -- and the "garage dojos" are a lot harder to find.  So I do think
your sample is skewed.  

Mind you, I have no idea what the actual numbers are.  I don't think
anybody does, really.

    > Different color uniform or different color belt or different color 
    > propeller on your beanie, what's the difference?  It's just rank 
    > insignia.  Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
    > BFD.

   Go over the top, huh.  I agree with the precept that there should be
   some indication of rank, for discipline reasons, and also for personal
   gain.  But a whole new colour gi is like wearing a jacket with huge
   letters saying, "I'm a tough guy cause I do karate..."

True enough...I agree with you that it does seem pretty silly to have a 
completely new uniform.  Someone's making some bucks on that, you can bet.

    > Body Alive?  What's that?

   Ah.  I'll make an exception in your case... :)  It's a whole range of
   pants and tops done in a modern fashion - you could even wear it on the
   street.  Muscle-shirt type tops, multi-colour pants.  Could look quite
   good, if you were into wearing Reebok stuff already.

Never heard of it.  What does it have to do with MA?

    > Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
    > in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.
   [snip]
    > Seems I was right...

   Yeah.  One out of... uh, a few hundred, at least... is pretty good odds.
   I dunno.  Ask around - maybe some other guys down here have heard about
   clubs that I haven't.  But this Ninjitsu is definitely a McDojo.

REALLY???  Do you really know of a few hundred schools, only one of which
is making a profit?

    > Can I ask a really stupid question here?  Do you really feel that you 
    > can speak for all martial artists in NZ?  If not, why do you keep saying
    > "we"?

   Gee, I dunno.  Why not?  I haven't seen any adverse commments (yet) from
   the guys down here, and even recieved a few good ones.  Seems fair.

Well, as long as the NZers vote you their spokesman, I certainly have no 
objection.

    > Really?  How much is that?

   I dunno.  You tell me.  I can't quite remember, but it varied between
   about US$5 per class, and about $100 per month.  Too much.  How much do
   you pay?  I've been out of touch with the US for a while - last time I
   was there was 4 years ago.

I pay about $48 a month at one school (unlimited training time etc.) and 
$65 a month at another.  I'm sure both are too much by your standards.  
Personally, I can afford it and I think they're worth it.

    > Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
    > pays for MA training.  You have probably heard a few figures from a few
    > people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.

   Fine.  Lemme know when you meet one.

I wasn't claiming that I knew.  If you go back and look at my post, I said
exactly that.  You were the one who expressed shock at what the "average 
US citizen" pays for training, implying that you knew what that number was.

[snip]

   Hm.  Let's see.  Space is worth $15 an hour.  That's, uh... 11 or 12
   hours a week, say 11 (I'm not sure about the length of juniors classes).
   Hmmmm....  11x15=$165...x4 months=$660, which is about US$390, I fink.
   We get the space at slightly less than it should be.  I checked the
   roster.  We actually have about 50 paid members, including juniors.  Hm.
   25x12+25x3=$375...  $390-$375=US$15 per month.  That looks about right -
   replacement bags every so often.  We bought the dojo a barbie recently,
   for social occasions, which we're still paying off... ;)

Your sensei is paying a LOT less than he would be paying here for similar
space.  'nuff said.

[snip]

    > are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
    > university clubs.  Many of them have opportunities to train with very
    > fine teachers for a very small fee.

   I wasn't including varsity clubs - down here, they're ridiculously
   cheap.  Our style even offers one for $60 per year (which we give to the
   Uni, I believe, so they buy the bags... I fink ;), which allows the Uni
   students to train at our main dojo, plus two other 2 hour sessions at
   the Uni itself.

Why not include them?  They're the way a lot of people get their training.

[snip]

    > But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
    > of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.

   Well, we are trying to build it even more.  However, there are bigger
   ones (I know of a South Island Judo club that has over 150 paid senior
   members, I think), and smaller ones with less cost (I belonged to a
   Hapkido dojang that charged $15 [US$8] a month, with about 8 members,
   and an Aikido dojo, with about 15 members, at $10 [US$6] per month).
   The way that small clubs survive is to be in accessable locations (ie,
   schools) and get the space cheaper.  

Again, even the cheapest space around here isn't what you would call cheap.  

   Larger school like ourselves get a
   better space for about the same, as we naturally attract more members
   for the flashy club... ;)  [It's a central city location, so people can
   go right after work].

Hmm...would you care to guess about what a dojo-like space would cost
you to rent in downtown Boston, or midtown Manhattan?  Location IS
important to getting students, but you pay for it.

It's a different situation over here.  When you find that people in
another place do things differently, there's frequently a reason for 
it.  Simple economic reality has a lot to do with who teaches MA 
in the States, and how they teach.  
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH