From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: RFD: alt.music newsgroups
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 19:51:38 GMT

In <1992Apr16.163725.2886@seas.gwu.edu> maple@seas.gwu.edu (Maple Moriji) writes:
>: >		you don't know what the hell is going on in these newsgroups.
>: >There are flame wars constantly about what is rock and hard rock and
>: >metal and etc.
>: Because they have the stupidest splits between them.  How the
>: fuck do YOU define metal and hard rock and rock-n-roll?  Probably differently
>: from a significant portion of anyone else anywhere, since the terms are
>: so vague as to be useless.
>People who can't tell the difference between these types of music are
>musically illiterate.

Bullshit.

>			Sure, there are groups that fall in between,
>but don't tell me that INXS and U2 can be considered metal.

Certainly, they can't, but the lines are NOT CLEAR CUT, and you will
*always* have flame wars about people posting in "the wrong place".
Just look at rec.music.industrial for a prime example of continual
flames about what does and doesn't contstitute a particular type
of music.

Here's a specific example:  Is King Crimson metal?  Hard Rock?  Jazz?
One of their most commonly known songs, "21st Century Schizoid Man"
seems to me to be an archetypal metal song, much harder than other
things branded "metal" from the same period (late 60's).  Yet it is
completely atypical of any of their other work that I'm familiar
with.

So, would we be "allowed" to discuss King Crimson in the metal or
hard rock groups?  Even in RELEVANT ways?

As far as INXS and U2, are they "hard"?  Even some of the time?
Or should they be under some other name?  "alt.music.rock" instead?
But isn't U2 a typical "alternative" band?  Why shouldn't they be
relegated to "alt.music.alternative"?  But hey, they've sold out
and are making big bux on "classic rock radio", why should they be
polluting "alt.music.alternative"?

Do you see my point?

>: >		These new subdivisions will stop flame wars and give
>: >birth to new newsgroups where people can post about something without
>: >getting flamed.
>: No, the new subdivisions will give rise to even more stupid flame wars
>: (QUIT POSTING ABOUT YOUR BAND ON OUR BANDS BOARD! (even if the relationship
>: is relevant) etc.).
>So what do you suggest?  Maybe we should just combine all the music
>newsgroups into one, so that there will only be one newgroup with flame
>wars.  Get real.

I was just pointing out that your reasoning about "they will stop flame
wars" was either naive or false.

Your proposals show very little rhyme or reason behind the naming system,
beyond the common "alt.music" subtree.  If they were consistent and
consolidated *all* the music groups in alt (what about alt.music.rap?), I
might be more inclined to say "yeah, sure that sounds like a good idea".
As it is, I don't have the brain bandwidth to come up with competing ideas,
but I can damn well argue against bad ideas when I see them.

>: >I have been reading alt.r-n-r.metal for some time now and it's filled
>: >with groups like Def Leppard and Guns N Roses, which don't belong there.
>: In YOUR OPINION.  Get a clue.  Your opinion isn't the center of the
>: Universe, much less Usenet.
>Once again, this is NOT just my opinion.

But obviously the opinion is not unanimous, or there'd be no problem in
the first place.  Right?.

>: >Hell, there's even stuff about INXS, U2, and Queen.  These groups are
>: >NOT metal.
>: Awwww....  So hard/metal/r-n-r are just so easy to define, right?  Why
>: then are people posting about these bands in .metal?  They can't ALL
>: be clueless dweebies.
>Believe me, most of them are "clueless dweebies."

Arrogance in action.

>: >Sure, we could keep separating all these groups forever, but that was
>: >not my point.  I want these groups to be RENAMED so that people will
>: >see the differences in music more easily.
>: Right.  Like I said, we need all those other groups too.  I mean,
>: alt.music.soft at the VERY least.
>But are those "other groups" in high demand also?

Well, alt.music.enya could have been replaced by alt.music.soft.  heh.
I don't see *any* of the alt groups in "high demand" or else there'd
be enough people to vote them into the main heirarchy and get real
distribution.

>Once again, I did NOT come up with these names.  I'm merely
>collecting everyone's suggestions and presenting them.

Pardon me for not realizing that, but your didn't say a thing
about other people in your post.  It said "I'm proposing"...

>: So before you go off and propose a bunch of ill-named groups, maybe
>: you should give some thought to the effect on the net as a whole,
>: and to the idea of coming up with a more comprehensive and sensible
>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: naming scheme that will be less prone to flames because people's
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: individual judgements differ.
>Do you have any suggestions?  Or are you just saying this to put an
>end to this discussion?

I've said I don't have better suggestions, but that doesn't mean that
this proposal is good, or better than the existing mess.

Some of the changes you propose *are* good:  organizing things under
alt.music would be a good thing, if it took in ALL the alt music groups.
I might even concede alt.music.rock as a good thing, the instrumental
and "electronic"/"exotic"/"thrash" groups as not really bad things, but
splitting off "rock.hard" and keeping "metal" seperate from "rock" seems
stupid.  "metal.speed" seems a pretty fine hair to split (yes, I know it's
"different", and qualititatively I can tell some of the difference, but it
still seems like too fine a line to be of much use for subdividing
newsgroups).

Add to that the fact that I would just as soon see and end the trend
toward "alt.music.my.band.here" (why put acdc under rock and metallica
under metal?  "alt.music.acdc" and "alt.music.metallica" make more sense
to me, if it were any kind of a good idea), and that makes a good summary
of why I think this is a bad proposal.

If you want to reorganize alt.music groups, do them all, and try to do it
consistently.  Otherwise you're replacing one bad system with another
bad system, and not gaining much of anything but a hassle for news
administrators who carry alt groups.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
 A person's acts in life are like meals, his thoughts and feelings like spices.
 Whoever puts salt on cherries or pours vinegar on sweets will fare poorly....
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
Xref: sparky alt.config:2850 alt.sci.astro.figaro:2