HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo)
Subject: Re: It was mythical
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 02:26:25 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Oct1.195146.5727@nntp.uoregon.edu> JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Laurie E. W. Brandt) writes:
>A trivia contest
>Since the start of the the modern era (ca 1500) how many mythical places
>and amimals have been proven to exist now or in the past. Such as the Okapi
>or Troy.
>   Please list the name of the thing that was mythical, who proved it to be
>real and the date when that proof was first presented to the general
>public.  this will allow others to follow up if they so choose.
>
>Laurie E. W. Brandt 

I believe that "King Arthur" falls into this category.  There are a couple
of recent books on the subject.  However, I do not have the titles handy.

-- 
Ralph Yozzo (yozzo@watson.ibm.com)  
From the beautiful and historic Mid-Hudson Valley area of NY state
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: mimir@stein.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 05:29:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.220143.26650@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> ptrudell@lonestar.utsa.edu (Peter J. Trudell) writes:
>
>Oh, and the following of Eris/Discord is not a non-religion....one of the
>creators of the modern Erisian/Discordian movement, Robert Anton Wilson, said
>that if he had thought it would have been this REAL, he would have chosen
>Aphrodite.

 IT IS TOO A NON-RELIGION!!! I'm a non-member so I should non-know.

Hail Loki! Hail Eris! 

                           mimir@u.washington.edu
    /\  /\       +----------------------------------------+
   /__\/__\      | "I know that I hung on the windy tree  |          |
  /\  /\  /\     |  all of nights nine, wounded by Gar,   |          |
 /__\/__\/__\    |   given to Odhinn, myself to myself,   |          |
    /\  /\       | upon that tree of which none can tell  |          |
   /__\/__\      |      from what root it rises."         |    ______|______
                 +----------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:44:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.152408.29280@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
}Menelaos' reputation went down, due to the affairs of his wife.
}Therefore his brother Agamemnon, king of Argos, gathered the kings/generals
}of other known greek states and they all decided to attack Troy.

Not quite.  In order to resolve the many suitors of Helen, Odysseus got them
all to swear to uphold Helen's free choice.  She chose Menelaos.  When she
left him for Paris, Menelaos had Agamemnon hold the suitors to their oath
and lay seige upon Troy for the return of Helen to Menelaos.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: efm@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Evelyn Mitchell)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:24:16 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein) writes:

>Does anyone know about the Apple of Discord?  What did it do?  Who gave it
>to whom? For what?
>Please reply to alt.mythology, or directly to my e-mail address below.

>Thank you very much in advance.

>******************************************
>*       Barry Rein                       *
>*       brein@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov        *
>******************************************
>*       No clever comment.               *
>******************************************
The Apple of Discord was a golden apple thrown by Eris (Strife) at
the marriage of Peleus and Thetis among the assembled gods. On it
was written 'Let the fair one take it,' or according to some
authories, 'The apple for the fair one.' 
[Jane Ellen Harrison quoted in Joseph Campbell Occidental Mythology]

The three goddesses who contested the apple were Aprodite, Hera and 
Athena. They chose Paris to decide between the three of them, thus
the episode is known as the Judgment of Paris.

Aphrodite bribes Paris with Helen (of Troy) if he choses her. He does
and sets off the Trojan war.

Hope this helps.
Evelyn Mitchell
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp,alt.horror
From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Organization: New Mexico State University
Distribution: world, public 
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:53:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.120944.15847@husc3.harvard.edu> alvalent@husc9.harvard.edu (Alvin Valentine) writes:
>
>Anne Rice's book the Queen of the Damned mentions a secret sect
>affiliated with the Knights Templar called the Talamasca.  Did this group
>ever exist?  Have any clue about it?  Is it just a product of Rice's mind?
>
>Thanks
>
>Lee Valentine
>alvalent@husc.harvard.edu
>

The Talamasca are a product of Anne Rice's fertile imagination.  If
you're interested "The Witching Hour" contains a lot more on their
"history."

Cheers,
From: rlwinter@tomatillo.engr.ucdavis.edu (Richard Lee Winterstein)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Sigfreid
Keywords: sword
Date: 3 Oct 92 23:08:44 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering - University of California - Davis

In article <30SEP199210395679@zeus.tamu.edu> mfn6430@zeus.tamu.edu (NORTH, MATTHEW FRANK) writes:
>I have forgotten it. 
>							Thanks,
>								SHADE
What does this mean, you are looking for the name?
Gram in the Eddas, Notung in Wagner's Ring.  
Anyone know if there are any others?
Rick

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: ptrudell@lonestar.utsa.edu (Peter J. Trudell)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 22:01:43 GMT

    Actually, I'm sure the golden apple that the fair Eris used was one she
swiped from the grove of golden apples of the Hesperides....the same ones used
in various other places in greek myths.

Oh, and the following of Eris/Discord is not a non-religion....one of the
creators of the modern Erisian/Discordian movement, Robert Anton Wilson, said
that if he had thought it would have been this REAL, he would have chosen
Aphrodite.

--Red/Hail Eris, all Hail Discordia
  (reading from the great Principia Discordia)

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: graham@sees.bangor.ac.uk (Graham A Stephen)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: University College of N Wales, Bangor
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:19:15 GMT
X-Posted-From: sol.sees.bangor.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


          K A L L I S T I 

--
graham a stephen                    
(e-mail: graham@sees.bangor.ac.uk)        

Ni fallat vatum Scoti hunc quocunque locatum
 Invenient lapidem, regnare tenentur ibidem
From: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Date: 3 Oct 92 15:28:24 GMT
Reply-To: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <brein-300992092823@128.149.100.150>, brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein) writes:
>Does anyone know about the Apple of Discord?  What did it do?  Who gave it
>to whom? For what?
>Please reply to alt.mythology, or directly to my e-mail address below.
>
>Thank you very much in advance.
>
>******************************************
>*       Barry Rein                       *
>*       brein@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov        *
>******************************************
>*       No clever comment.               *
>******************************************

At the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, who became the parents of Achilles, all of
the deities came with gifts.  All, that is, except for the goddess Eris (whose
name means Strife, or Discord), who, arriving uninvited, tosses an apple into
the crowd.  On the apple are the words "For the most beautiful."

	Three goddesses claim that the apple belongs to them:  Athena, Hera, 
and Aphrodite.  To avoid an all out fight between the three, the deities 
decide to hold a beauty contest, with a mortal as judge.  The mortal chosen
for this job was Paris.  

	The goddesses each try to bribe Paris.  Athenapromises him glory in
battle; he will become a great general.  Hera promises him to make him the
ruler of a mighty empire.  Aphrodite promises him the love of the most
beautiful woman in the world.  Paris awards the apple to Aphrodite.

	And who is the most beautiful woman in the world?  Helen, wife of
Menelaus, king of Sparta.  Paris goes to Sparta (I believe Menelaus is away
at the time), Helen sees him and falls in love with him.  They abscond back to
Paris' home, Troy, and Menelaus rages all over Greece, stirring up the other
kings and demanding revenge against the Trojans.

	And so begins the Trojan War.

                                                      Fledermaus
From: tucker@mitre.org (William Tucker)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: mystisism. and what follows
Keywords: Re: mystisism. and what follows
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:55:09 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA, USA

In article <gemxDvW00WBOA8ruEs@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Adam M. Donshik" <ad2u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>
> O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
> give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.

I think the two key things that I remember related to Jung are the 
"collective unconcious" and "synchronicity." Collective unconciousness
relates to "racial memory," what we know in common and to some extent
our cultural mythology that exists as a common thought pool that we
dip into for our everyday thinking, it includes the concept of a shared 
conciousness. Synchronicity refers to the connectedness of "apparently" 
unconnected events or things. Another important aspect of Jungian 
thinking deals with common symbology. This is all off the top of my 
head so I may be a little wrong. I believe that there are works of 
his titled, Synchronicity, Man and His Symbols. He also wrote some of the 
foreword and commentary to "The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation" 
by W.Y. Evans-Wentz, that discusses collective unconciouness. 
Hope this helps.

Wm T.

.standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp,alt.horror
From: marks@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Mark Stadel)
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Organization: University of Calgary Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:37:19 GMT

In article <r1_pa7m@quantum.on.ca> dagibbs@quantum.on.ca (David Gibbs) writes:
>In article <tapestry.717448958@camelot> tapestry@camelot.bradley.edu (Brian Petree) writes:
>>Alvin Valentine writes:
>>
>>Keep in mind that in one of the first two VAMPIRE novels she mentions
>>Ramses the damned as being a vampire or something like one....then a
>>book. 
>
>The mention of Ramses is in _The Vampire Lestat_, and he is not mentioned
>as being a vampire, but is mentioned as being another "immortal" creature
>on the earth  -- but specifically not a vampire in the way that Lestat
>is.  (There is also mention of one, and maybe two other "immortals"
>who aren't vampires.)  Also Ramses (and the other immortals) are
>mentioned in a manner that suggests they are semi-legendary, ie
>I haven't met him but more in the "a vampire in the coven, that
>my initiators other child was in met him" type of thing.
>
>-David
>(dagibbs@quantum.on.ca)

Ramses appears in The Mummy (Ramses the Damned) by Anne Rice. He is Ramses II
(or Ramses the Great), a pharoah of the 19th(?) dynasty. He consumes the
Elixir of Life and thus becomes immortal (doesn't need to eat, sleep, etc...).
By the end of the story, he has raised Cleopatra from the dead with the Elixir
aswell, though with some complications...

Mark
-- 
       Mark Stadel          |
  ...a hardware dude...     | "It's a software problem." -Me
  marks@cpsc.ucalgary.ca    |
           ***DISCLAIMER: Nobody listens to me anyways.***
From: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: mystisism. and what follows
Date: 3 Oct 92 15:46:00 GMT
Reply-To: t00022@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <gemxDvW00WBOA8ruEs@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Adam M. Donshik" <ad2u+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>Two things.  One I am looking for more information about mystisism in
>the Grecian society.  Two, what was the name, of the condemed man whose
>punishment was to roll a rock up a hill for all eternity, and what did
>he do?  O.k. next question, although it is not mythology, could anyone
>give me a direction to move toward pertaining to Jungian psychology.
>
>Now for something completely different.  Are there any good accounts of
>the Parsifal legend, other than the Bulfinch's one?  
>
>If any one could respond, I would be greatly abliged.
>
>adam m donshik

	You might want to take a look at _Parzival_ by Wolfram von 
Eschenbach.  Haven't read it myself (I'll get to it, I'll get to it!) but I
have heard that it is very good.   
                                                     Fledermaus
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: rdippold@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Pharamond?
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:44:29 GMT

I'm on the trail of a ancient diety named Pharamond...  General middle
eastern region, time frame somewhere near ancient Babylon.  In lieu of
actually finding a "Pharamond" in this or Greek mythology, it's
possible that it's a perversion of the god Mont/Mond/Month, who was
often used by Pharoahs as part of their name, so it could be a
perversion of Pharoah-Mont.  Or, it's a possible mutation on one of
the many names of Bel-Marduk.

Any clues?

-- 
Why don't you give yourself a treat?  Paint all your mirrors.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:24:08 GMT


In article <1992Oct1.043102.27803@u.washington.edu> mimir@stein.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
> brein@gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Barry Rein) writes:
>>Does anyone know about the Apple of Discord?  What did it do?  Who gave it
>>to whom? For what?
>
> The Greek Goddess of confusion and chaos, Eris (aka Discordia to the
>Romans) threw a Golden Apple into a party among the gods that she had been
>snubbed and not invited to. It was engraved with the inscription, "To the
>Fairist" and the goddesses argued about which of them was the fairest. A
>Human hero (whose name I forget) was asked to decide and, I believe, he

Paris from Troy. He was son of Priamos (king of Troy), and brother of Hector
(older son of Priamos).

>decided it was Helen of Troy. 

Helen was _not_ a goddess. She was wife of Menelaos, king of Sparta.
Paris decided for Aphrodite, who had promiced him an affair with Helen :-)

>This event led to the Trojan War and many deaths.

Menelaos' reputation went down, due to the affairs of his wife.
Therefore his brother Agamemnon, king of Argos, gathered the kings/generals
of other known greek states and they all decided to attack Troy.

If the war happenned in reality, this is another story, since 
this town had been destroyed so many times by earthquackes...

In article <16872F638.UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu> UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton) writes:
>schrist@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Sara Christiansen) writes:
>>
>>the Trojan war. The goddess Eris (goddess of discord) threw the apple on to
>So which is it? is Eris a god or goddess???   ;^)

Goddess.

Philip Santas

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:40:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.220143.26650@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> ptrudell@lonestar.utsa.edu (Peter J. Trudell) writes:
}    Actually, I'm sure the golden apple that the fair Eris used was one she
}swiped from the grove of golden apples of the Hesperides....the same ones used
}in various other places in greek myths.
}
}Oh, and the following of Eris/Discord is not a non-religion....one of the
}creators of the modern Erisian/Discordian movement, Robert Anton Wilson, said
}that if he had thought it would have been this REAL, he would have chosen
}Aphrodite.

Quite.  I heard a talk RAW gave in which he commented on how many think it's
an elaborate joke masquerading as a religion.  In fact, it's a religion
masquerading as an elaborate joke!


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
Subject: Re: What was the Apple of Discord?
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:46:23 GMT



In article <1992Oct3.054400.19948@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>santas@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>}Menelaos' reputation went down, due to the affairs of his wife.
>}Therefore his brother Agamemnon, king of Argos, gathered the kings/generals
>}of other known greek states and they all decided to attack Troy.
>
>Not quite.  In order to resolve the many suitors of Helen, Odysseus got them
>all to swear to uphold Helen's free choice.  She chose Menelaos.  When she
>left him for Paris, Menelaos had Agamemnon hold the suitors to their oath
>and lay seige upon Troy for the return of Helen to Menelaos.

Many of the participants, like Nestor, Aias (2x), etc. had nothing to do 
with Helen; their kingdoms were just allied to Argos...

However the story you mention is the reverse to the one of Odysseus and Penelope 
after the arrival of the former to Ithaka: Penelope's suitors had to compete using
Odysseus' equipment (interpreted by many as a phallic symbol), Odysseus won,
and killed|exiled them!

It seems that the whole war starts and ends with passionate "romantic" affairs :-)
(with some nasty events in between).
Or, as the poet says, it all happend "for an _empty_ shirt"...

Philip Santas

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: UC525655@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Mark Eaton)
Subject: Re: Apple of discord-What is it?
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:30:29 CDT

In article <1992Sep30.200229.18218@macc.wisc.edu>
schrist@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Sara Christiansen) writes:
 
>
>the Trojan war. The goddess Eris (goddess of discord) threw the apple on to
So which is it? is Eris a god or goddess???   ;^)
 
 
 
>the banquet table of the gods. On the apple was inscribed something about
>"For the fairest". Three goddesses immediately claimed it, Hera, Aphrodite,
>and Athena. It was decided by Zeus that an impartial judge, Paris, would
>decide who the apple was for (being a wise god, he knew the trouble it would
>cause him to make the decision and left it to a mortal to bear the judgement
>and punishment).
>        I believe that she also had an orchard of those apples. She would
>"sow" her seeds of discord through the apples.
>
>
>                                        Sara Christiansen
>                                        Systems Administrator
>                                        Social Science Microlab
>                                        University Wisconsin - Madison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Eaton                    | Opinions? We're not allowed to have
UC525655@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU | opinions at Mizzou... get back to me
                              | in 2 years when I graduate... ;)
From: schrist@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Sara Christiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Apple of discord-What is it?
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:55:21 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
	I believe that the apple of discord is the famous apple that started

the Trojan war. The goddess Eris (goddess of discord) threw the apple on to
the banquet table of the gods. On the apple was inscribed something about
"For the fairest". Three goddesses immediately claimed it, Hera, Aphrodite,
and Athena. It was decided by Zeus that an impartial judge, Paris, would
decide who the apple was for (being a wise god, he knew the trouble it would
cause him to make the decision and left it to a mortal to bear the judgement
and punishment).
	I believe that she also had an orchard of those apples. She would
"sow" her seeds of discord through the apples.


					Sara Christiansen
					Systems Administrator
					Social Science Microlab
					University Wisconsin - Madison 
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1827 rec.games.frp:25198 alt.horror:4168
From: dagibbs@quantum.on.ca (David Gibbs)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp,alt.horror
Subject: Re: Talamasca
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:48:34 GMT
Organization: Quantum Software Systems

In article <tapestry.717448958@camelot> tapestry@camelot.bradley.edu (Brian Petree) writes:
>Alvin Valentine writes:
>
>Keep in mind that in one of the first two VAMPIRE novels she mentions
>Ramses the damned as being a vampire or something like one....then a
>book. 

The mention of Ramses is in _The Vampire Lestat_, and he is not mentioned
as being a vampire, but is mentioned as being another "immortal" creature
on the earth  -- but specifically not a vampire in the way that Lestat
is.  (There is also mention of one, and maybe two other "immortals"
who aren't vampires.)  Also Ramses (and the other immortals) are
mentioned in a manner that suggests they are semi-legendary, ie
I haven't met him but more in the "a vampire in the coven, that
my initiators other child was in met him" type of thing.

-David
(dagibbs@quantum.on.ca)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Romantic Love in Greek Mythology
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:46:59 GMT

In article <92275.102925BKF@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <BKF@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
}Here's an excerpt from Robert Johnson's book "WE - Understanding the
}Psychology of Romantic Love":
}
}"Romantic love has existed throughout history in many cultures.  We find
}it in the literature of ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, ancient Persia,
}and feudal Japan.  But our modern Western society is the only culture in
}history that has experienced romantic love as a mass phenomenon.  We are the
}only society that makes romance the basis of our marriages and love
}relationships and the cultural ideal of "true love."
}
}"The ideal of romantic love burst into Western society during the Middle
}Ages.  It first appeared in our literature in the myth of Tristan and
}Iseult, then in the love poems and songs of the troubadours. ..."
}
}
}If the Greeks did view it as a sickness, then is must have existed.
}At least to the extent of being recognized and storied.
}
}-Bob

We're the only culture in history that has experienced much more than
starvation and poverty as mass phenomena... Romantic love really got its
boost to prominence with Eleanor of Aquitaine in, as I recall, the 12th
century.  She held Courts of Love, invited troubadours to sing of Trisan and
Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere, etc.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.mythology