HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Weapon for defense from cows
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:34:54 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland OR

I've got a self-defense situation that's a little different from most
of the ones I see here. It's cows.

When my wife and I go out to work on the soon-to-be farm we often run into
cows that get away from their usual pastures and wander onto our land. These
are not just happy bucolic cows. They are transplanted range cows whose only
usual contact with people is to get branded, injected, and for some gelded.
Most of them aren't any problem, but a certain large bull and a couple of
steers who haven't quite gotten the idea have given us a few nasty moments.
To complicate things, we don't have many nice open fields, it's mostly
trees with a couple of logging roads. We don't see the beasts until we round
the bend and "Moo?!".

My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into the nastier
one's far from our vehicle? So far the recommendations are:

1) A 12-gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs and kept with the tools wherever
   we work. Pro: we can afford it, and my wife (who is not as strong as I)
   can handle it. Should stop cows. Con: If it's with the tools it might not
   be near enough. Actually carrying it strapped on one's back is painful,
   tedious, and downrught dangerous when clearing brush or doing construction
   work.

2) Article .303 of the Animal Control Code :-) Pros and cons mostly the same.

3) 10% oleoresin capscin (sp?) spray. Pro: Lite-n-EZ to carry. Requires no
   strength to handle. Used to adjust bears' attitudes. Con: Yeah, right. IF
   the cow is downwind AND it's within 20 feet AND it doesn't get madder AND
   it doesn't just trample me on general principles the next time we meet. On
   the other hand the money back guarantee is really nifty :-)

4)  A good .44 magnum. One informant swears by the single action Rugers.
   Another says a more expensive double action pieces are the only way to go.
   Pro: Should stop a cow. Can be carried in holster  while working. Not too
   expensive. Con: My wife's does not feel whe is strong enough to handle
   this weapon right now. 

5) Various smaller caliber handguns. I'm not sure I want to just hurt over
   1000 lbs. of angry muscle at close range. The person who recommended these
   said that the steer would probably not be killed outright but would decide
   to take its business elsewhere. Great, a wounded dangerous animal in the
   brush. That';s not my idea of a good time.

Does anyone here have any other suggestions? Currently we're leaning towards
1) and 4) on the assumption that if six shots and a bunch of slugs from the
shotgun don't stop it the bull deserves to stomp a mudhole in our collective
body.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need Accessories for Galil AR  .223
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:41 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1e8qjqINNl8f@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, Dave.Maycon@EBay.Sun.COM (Dave Maycon) writes:
# Since most assault guns and accessories have been banned in Ca., it has been

Accessories haven't been banned.

# nearly impossible to purchase "stuff."  Does anybody know where I can get
# a scope mount, cheek rest and a AR-15 Magazine adapter.  I need possibly
# toll-free numbers or addresses of catalogs where I can get my hands on these
# products.
# 
# Thanx
# Dave

Quality Parts, 800-556-SWAT.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Foxes prefer rabbits with short claws." -- Nadja Adolf
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: bluemoon.L3LauB3w165w
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

# In article <1dserfINNjgs@male.EBay.Sun.COM> 49ers@eb5ts4.EBay.Sun.COM (Renie 
# #can anyone tell me what is the best kind of ammo to buy for home use in
# #
# #45 ACP, 9mm what is the best grain to buy? 
# 
# 
# 
# #Does any body own a Glock 21, ...
# 
# However, it is universally agreed that since a Glock is so butt ugly,
# you can always use it to scare the bad guys, which is a big plus in
# home defense. ;)
# 


It's been my thought that you might get some extra bullet velocity
from a Glock, the bullet being anxious to get as far away from the
ugly gun as quickly as possible.


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD.)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.guns submission
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: mica.micjrs.3.721908725
Organization: An Organization Name


In article <1992Nov12.192343.18855@walter.bellcore.com> bellcore!bae.bae.bellcore.com!wind@uunet.UU.NET (Wind Chen) writes:
#From: bellcore!bae.bae.bellcore.com!wind@uunet.UU.NET (Wind Chen)
#Subject: Re: rec.guns submission
#Date: 12 Nov 92 20:25:29 GMT
#In article <9211120128.utk20091@CISNCC.intel.com>, RRUBERT@CISNCC.intel.com writes:
#|> 
#|> #mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell)
#|> #I saw somebody in the desert place a propane bottle in a puddle of gas.  He

#|> While I would never do such a thing, I have heard of those who do. I am 

I did, however I had an interesting surprise:
I used a .222 Rem with soft nose bullets, I put the (thin aluminum) propane 
can in a puddle of gasoline, lit the gas and fired. The propane can really 
flew apart like any beer can shot at with a fast bullet but the resulting 
liquid gas puff actually put the gasoline fire out! (Increasing the puddle 
took care of the problem)
/RS
"Do as I say, not as I do!" (refering to the above experiments)
Richard Soderberg, MD
Systems dpt.
MIC-KIBIC, Karolinska institutet
PO Box 602 01
S-104 01 Stockholm
Sweden

Talk Phone : +46 8 728 80 00
Facsimile  : +46 8  33 04 81
E-mail     : micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se
From: sjo@sunsrvr1.cci.com (Steve Owens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: sunsrvr1.9211161701.AA12468
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY

In article <1992Nov14.180840.5974@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Jim writes:
#scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET writes:
#	I said:
###I'm not saying the Glock is bad, but it is single action: the gun
###cannot be cocked using the trigger.   
#
##If you must categorize guns into single action or double action,
##the day will come soon when you will not be able to do so.  Glock is 
##a step in that direction, with their action described as "safe action."
##However, the Glock trigger cocks the gun every time, read the manual.  
##When you pull the slide back the firing
##pin (it has no hammer) is half cocked.  When you pull the trigger
##to the first pressure point (travel 0.2 in.), the firing pin is 
##put in full tension, or "fully cocked".  Pulling the trigger past
##that fires the weapon.  
#
##If the choice is between single and double action, by your definition, 
##the Glock is a double action pistol.
#
#	It half-cocks.  You cannot cock the gun using only the trigger. 
#You cannot cock the gun without moving the slide.  If you hit a dud
#you cannot hit it again using only the trigger*.  When this is
#the case, you know you have a sigle action gun, _a gun whose trigger
#cannot fully cock and release the hammer_.

	So does the safe action keep the Glock from going off
half-cocked?

	Sorry, but I *had* to ask.

:-)

#Jim Del Vecchio


						Steve


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Read between the lines                             Steven J Owens @ CCI
 Criticize the words they're selling             (716) 482-5000 Ext 2867
 Think for yourself and feel the walls                 sjo@op632.cci.com
 Become sand beneath your feet." - Queensryche "Anybody Listening?"
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR parts - which ones to have on hand?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:38 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <Bxtuz7.C0w@SSD.intel.com>, cower@SSD.intel.com (Rich Cower) writes:
#
#What parts would you AR experts keep on hand, assuming you couldn't buy
#them in the future? I'd like to keep my HBAR operational, and if I can't
#buy parts...which ones should I purchase now? Which parts have you had
#break? wear out? or just lost in cleaning?
#

I am sure this is a question many people are wondering about now what 
with the election results.........

I am assuming that we will still have a supply of parts around, but 
that the lower recievers (the OFFICIAL GUN) will no longer be 
available. Purchase an extra lower reciever (or ten), and the 
rest later. Is this flawed logic??

Thanx, Eddie
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense (.308 penetration?!)
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:33:16 GMT
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <1992Nov19.195759.11856@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>
jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#>From article <01GR9PJA0L1C8WXXZI@HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU>, by
#>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny):

#>I will use my laser-sighted .308 SIG AMT, loaded with 20 rounda of
#>frangible ammunition, unless I have no other weapon at my disposal.
#>The 18" barrel makes it handy around corners, the softnose ammo will
#>not penetrate decent drywall, and the laser makes it useful for point
#>shooting.  The bayonet makes for a very significant advantage in close
#>quarters.  Whenever overpenetration is not a concern, I will switch to
#>a magazine loaded with FMJ surplus, as the wide availability of
#>bullet-resistant clothing among certain antisocial types makes
#>anything other than a head shot extremely problematic in the
#>conclusiveness of its effects.  Otherwise I aim for the face.

#Beg your pardon, but I'm pretty sure I have fired bbs and pellets
#through drywall.  I know I have fired .357 mags through 2x4s (the
#4" dimension).  Please test that .308 on some drywall at the
#range and let us know. 

I may be in error regarding the name of the plaster-like substance
which separates the rooms in a typical urban dwelling, but my 180gr
softnose bullets certainly expand and stay therein, provided that the
walls are of a seemingly standard double thickness.  An FMJ slug, on
the other hand, will go right through, but stops in a brick wall.

I disclaim any responsibility for your home testing of these claims.

#-- 
#"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
#Though all the world betrays thee.
#One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
#One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Le cul des femmes est monotone comme l'esprit des hommes."
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Buying a weapon for a female (need help)
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:18 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University


I am planning on getting a firearm as a gift for a female friend of mine and I
have a Ruger SP101 on order, but the closer and closer that christmas the more
nervous I get because the fraggin' thing hasn't shown up at my local retailer
yet.  It's been on back order since August. (the 101 I ordered was the .357 with
the 2" barrel).
 
Needless to say, Ruger is about to loose my business and I'm looking at
alternatives now.  I'm looking for suggestions on what to get her.  I want
something on the lines of the medium frame variety and with a short barrle (2"
- 2.5").  I also want the calibre to be .357, but will probably be used in
conjunction with .38 loads.
 
I'm looking at the SW model 66 with the 2.5".  The model 65 (which the shortest
I can get the barrle is 3").  The 686's, gp100's, etc are too big.
 
(I'm not limiting myself to SW, but it's the brand that I know best. Any
suggestions on similar .357's from whatever company would be warmly welcomed
also...) Prices would be appriciated also.
 
Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: JIMKIRK@corral.uwyo.edu (Jim Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: CFV: rec.crafts.metalworking
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:12:13 GMT



(moderator -- thanks for letting me post the RFD for rec.crafts.metalworking
last month; if you could also post this CFV I'd appreciate it!  J.K.)
	[MODERATOR: No problem .... the usual netnews courtesy.]

This is a Call For Votes (CFV) on creation of the unmoderated newsgroup
rec.crafts.metalworking.  The charter is reproduced below.

To vote FOR the creation of this new newsgroup, send mail to
metalyes@corral.uwyo.edu.  To vote AGAINST the creation of this group,
send mail to metalno@corral.uwyo.edu.  Please send votes *only* to one
of these two addresses, otherwise it will not count.  Do not post your
vote, or send it to my personal mailbox.  The content of the e-mail
ballot is not important, just the address it is sent to.

The voting period will last until 23:59:59 MST, 14-DEC-1992.  Votes
*received* after that date cannot be counted.

Charter
-------

Proposed Charter -- REC.CRAFTS.METALWORKING

The USENET newsgroup, rec.crafts.metalworking, is a newsgroup which discusses
various aspects of working with metal, such as (but not limited to):

  machining, as on a lathe, milling machine, grinder, etc.;
  numerical control of such machines;
  welding, whether by gas, arc, mig, tig, thermite, or other methods;
  Metal joining, whether welding, brazing, soldering, riveting,
    screwing, folding, etc.  (this section was added during the discussion)
  casting various metals by various methods;
  hardening/tempering various metals;
  blacksmithing/forging;
  spinning and hammer work;
  sheet metal work;
  jewelry-making;
  purchasing and/or reconditioning metalworking tools and machinery;
  interesting projects;
  books on metal technologies and history;

Example areas of interest:

  knife/sword making;
  automotive repair;
  steam engine (model/scale, though full-sized discussions are welcome!);
  art work, such as bronze castings and sculptures;
  gunsmithing;
  toolmaking, such as for woodworking, further metalworking, etc.;

While the bulk of the discussion will probably be directed towards
small-scale "home" shops, industrial/production discussions are also
quite welcome.
-- 
Jim Kirkpatrick
jimkirk@corral.uwyo.edu
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Case
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:10 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1ems2qINNf2q@transfer.stratus.com> tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
#In article <659@bongo.UUCP>, julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey) writes:
## [...]
## 	So,  while visiting musician friends I noticed they had 
## these cool guitar shaped cases that fit an AR-15 with a few inches 
## to spare. So I bought a guitar case at my local guitar store. These 
## cost between $50-75 new. Less used with Van Halen stickers on them. 
## They need some surgery to remove the guitar neck supports etc. But they 
## make a damn fine case. 

#This is getting almighty close to "concealed carry" (exactly your intent,
#but unfortunatley not appreciated by lawmaking types in some areas).

Well, yes and no...  If the interior is clearly customised to be a 
gun case, then it is a gun case ... And if you clearly letter the 
outside with the words 'GUN CASE' (say in 10 point type on the bottom ;-)
that would add some more 'proof' ...

#If you live in one of these areas, be careful to not have ammo in the case.
#It would be worthwhile taking the bolt out of the rifle and keeping it
#somewhere else while carrying the rifle in the case - both would help prove
#that the weapon wasn't live, which could help in defense against a charge of
#illegal concealed carry.

All good advice...

BTW, a cruise through the '93 Shooters Bible shows that my favorite
dream piece is still available... a semi-auto Thompson 'Tommy Gun'
with FACTORY Violin Case!  Yes, it is available with a guaranteed to
be a gun case 'cause the manufacturer says it is 'Violin Case'...

Might also prove to be a decent precident that a music-like case
with gun holding interior is really a gun case ...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: tac light and tapping holes
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:37 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes:

#Hi, two quickies on tech-talk, away from the rec.guns introspection thread...


#2.  I'm looking for a decent tactical flashlight to use with my pistol. 
#That is to say, not ON my pistol, but in weak hand.  I use a cross hand
#position, and would like a smaller flashlight (maybe a little stubbier
#too, for better grip) than I use now, but especially one with an end cap
#switch for "momentary contact".  The AA-cell maglight is about the right
#size if I had the end switch (and maybe a foam grip to widen it just a little
#and reduce opportunity for slip).  Any suggestions????     Currently I'm 
#looking at the TacStar Industries (aka Adventurer's Outpost) product, and
#wondering if its worth the money.

Jim, take a look at the "SureFire" line of flashlights.  I think that they
have just what you're looking for.  They have a light that is a little shorter
and a little fatter than the mini mag light, but it puts out as much light as
the three D-cell model with a krypton bulb.  It was designed for shooters,
it's very heavy duty.  It's not cheap :-( about $75.00.

#Jim

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:34:56 GMT
Organization: Storage Technology Corp.

popovich@morningside.cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:

#Then there's what happened on Tuesday this week, outside a Brooklyn
#subway station.  This isn't the first report of this incident locally,
#but there is an article on the front page of today's NYTimes about it.
#I'll include a few carefully chosen excerpts to help reinforce the
#point.  The article begins:

#	...Two of the officers from the patrol opened fire...The
#	officers fired 17 shots in a matter of moments...

#In other words, a pretty emphatic OOPS!  One of the officers was hit
#three times, twice in his bulletproof vest, but once in the neck.


 17 shots and only 3 Hits!!!!  In the middle of NYC?  Where did those
 other 14 rounds go?  Their lucky they didn't have 14 dead civilians
 laying out on the street afterwards!  Send these guys back to the
 Academy.  Better yet, make them take a NRA basic handgun class.
 I wonder who got the most hits, the 2 Glocks or the .38.  I'd bet
 on the guy with the .38 :-)

                                Bill Vojak
                                Bill_Vojak@stortek.com
				NRA, ILA,
                                Colorado Firearms Collation

------------------------------------------
Anti-Gun President, Anti-Gun Congress,
Better buy what you want BEFORE Dec 31.
----------------------------------------
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: tac light and tapping holes
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:15:36 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group


Re: flashlights and guns, I prefer not to have a weapon mounted
flashlight. My reasoning is that I'll be holding the weapon so
I can use the sights. That means anyone shooting at the light
is shooting at me, more specifically my head. Not good. I prefer
a strong light held well away to one side from the body. A necessity
is a momentary switch that's easy to manipulate even with gloves.
Helpful would be a thumb focus arrangement that would let me 
change from spot to flood with a flick of the thumb. Right now
I'm using an armored flashlight that only says, "Property of Bell
System." (Don't ask) Anyone who knows of a commercial source for
such flashlights, please post.

Gary
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LASERs - rangefinders?
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:15:39 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Nov16.181832.26818@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes:
#Not exactly, police speed radar uses the Doppler principle, however
#police Laser speed detectors use muliple range finding technique to
#calculate the velocity.  Distance to the target is taken at precisely
#known time intervals, the differential distance is divded by the time
#to give the speed. You probably could use one of these with
#modification to measure target distance, but you better have money to
#burn, I understand that these devices go for $3-$5k.

And if you were shooting at a large (over, say, 2 m^2) metal target.
Radar only works on things which reflect radio waves. The one of the
advantages of laser ranger-finders is that it will work on anything
which reflects light (e.g. anything not painted black.)

                                              Frank Crary
                                              CU Boulder
From: purtilo@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: follow up to shotgun question i raised earlier....
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:08:29 GMT

The other day I asked about drilling/tapping holes in order to mount some
ghost-ring sights on a shotgun. I also described the shotgun configuration
I would like to set up.  Here is a summary to date of thoughts along these
lines ....

1.  I have gotten good descriptions of what to do with drill/tap, but will
probably need a little more help choosing which threads to go with (fine,
I assume to get maximum surface area in contact between screw and receiver
in short space, but which for sure?) I have a drill press that will simplify 
the whole operation, but let's remember a corollary to the DEC field service
motto:  "Always mount a scratch shotgun."  I will practice before the real
thing.

2.  Got a first hand account of the Sage sights, which is one of the two
brands I was looking at.  They sound good, except the tritium front sight
is reported not to be as bright as desired.... you all saw this nice post
here earlier anyway.

3.  The December 1992 issue of Soldier of Fortune has a very interesting
review of Scattergun Technologies mods to the Rem 870 police model.  I want
one!    But for home brew, I have the following observation and question:

---   The other sight system I was looking at via Brownell's is from the
      same company!  It also looks good, though I have had no report on
      them.

---   The Scattergun product is described as using a "Laser Products SUREFIRE
      tactical light, model 318".  The picture of this looks *very* appealing,
      but no reference is given for how to find this company directly.  Does
      anyone out there know how to track them down???

Slowly converging.... Thanks!

Jim