HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smgarvin@nyx.cs.du.edu (susan garvin)
Subject: Re: Walk For Choice
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:45:21 GMT

In article <4SEP199208291927@venus.lerc.nasa.gov> ecaxron@venus.lerc.nasa
gov (Ron Graham) writes:
>In article <185hmjINNk1h@agate.berkeley.edu>, dyer@marina.asd.sgi.com 
>     (Dyer Crouch) writes...
>
>>THE PRO-CHOICE COALITION OF SANTA CLARA COUNTY (CA.)
>>WILL BE PUTTING ON THE FOLLOWING:
>
>Y'know, they have an entire newsgroup specifically devoted to this sort 
f
>thing.  It's called "talk.abortion."  That's where this goes.
>
Speaking of talk.abortion, there are several people there who
would like to see your explanation for your claim that all
engineers and computer scientists are men.  Please drop back
in and let us know.

>>Who *really* speaks for women?  NOW, with its 280000 members, or the NWC
,
>with 1.8 *million*?


NOW's members, at least, *know* that they are considered to
be members.  Do the members of the other group willingly
join?  Or is this another group who counts its members by
estimating the readership of its newsletter?

Susan




Xref: sparky alt.feminism:130 talk.bizarre:27490
From: rdc@netcom.com (Rachel Dafni Christy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: FEMINIST/DYKE JOKES WANTED
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:04:35 GMT
Organization: 'Ex-Biology Grad Student, Student of Life.

in alt.feminism, rec.humor, and alt.wanted.moslem.gay

ata@sage.cc.purdue.edu (ata boy) writes:
)
)Q: Why do sumo wrestlers shave their legs?
)A: So you can tell them apart from feminists.


PLEASE TAKE ALT.FEMINISM OFF THESE CROSS-POSTS AND MAINTAIN SOME
KINDNESS WITH RESPECT TO OTHER PEOPLES POINTS OF VIEW AND LIFESTYLES.

PLEASE!

THANK YOU.


rachel


-- 
--
hugs, Rachel
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:29:56 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

In article <1992Sep1.191640.10395@panix.com> smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:
| How important is it to change the language to make it non-sexist?  For
| instance, back at college, one campus (which comprised of only women)
| organization decided to get the school to change the term "freshman"
| with "first-year student" within the university.

Language is important, but it also changes constantly.  If
women become more or less equal, and we retain the suffix -man
for "one who", etc., what will happen is that the suffix and
associated word will gradually lose their gender-specific
meaning, and there will be no word for the male of the species.

This would be a reversion to a previous state of the language
(if you think of Anglo-Saxon as the same language as English).
The term _woman_ is generally said to come from AS _wifman_,
wife + man, where it's clear that _man_ carried little or no
denotation of gender.

I see terms like "freshman" applied to women all the time,
with no sense of incongruity.  It seems to work in some cases,
not in others: chairman can be female, Congressman can't.
Notice that in the second case, a secondary accent falls on 
"-man".  Maybe that's all there is to it.

I would work on other things first, keeping aware of what
language tells us but not attempting to force it, unless
the change is easy.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: sex is sexist? (was Re: Dworkin...)
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:28:00
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Aug28.052723.8947@news.columbia.edu> <4rdnmhc.payner@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: payner@netcom.com's message of Fri, 28 Aug 92 14:51:24 GMT

In article <4rdnmhc.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
> I wonder if she would find that amusing? :^)  Actually, sex is essentially
> sexist, and (IMHO) must always be. 

Can you explain this further and give your reasons why you think so?  I
was completely unconvinced by Andrea Dworkin...*smile*.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Winning by Violation (was: new group?)
Date: 3 Sep 92 05:52:38 GMT
Organization: The Piranha Club

In article <MUFFY.92Aug24152947@remarque.berkeley.edu> 
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>2. I am not in favor of sexist legislation.

All that from Muffy who posted zillion articles why "choice for women"
is good and "choice for men" is bad.  She is not for sexist legislation 
just for legislation that forces men to obey "your biology is your
destiny; if your don't want to deal with unwanted pregnancy then
don't fuck."

(And it is not sexist of course, Muffy herself said it!)

All that from Muffy who rejects politically incorrect articles
from soc.feminism.

All this from Muffy who had nothing to say against affirmative action.

It is very nice that you have such a good opinion about yourself,
I just wonder which actions of you justify your opinion...
From: dchuk@netcom.com (Denise Chuk)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:15:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

chris@unislc.uucp (Chris DelPrete) writes:

>One of the more telling incidents I remember is seeing the name plates for the
>tellers at Zions First National Bank (a couple years ago):

>Becky
>Julie
>Dawn
>Linda
>Mr. Bennett

>*That* is sexism!  Imagine that!  Sexism in what my friend Bob calls, Ootah.
>This Mormon-owned bank has recently changed that little policy.  (Good move.)

Well, two years ago I taught at the School of Drama at a certain Southern
university.  There were only three Ph.Ds in the department: myself, and two
other men.  It annoyed me to no end when everybody within the department would
address the two men as Dr. so-and-so, but never failed to simply call me 
either "Denise Chuk" or just "Denise".  This happened not only in informal
occasions (which I didn't mind at all) but formal meetings, departmental
functions, and written reports.  For instance, in a minute of the weekly
faculty meeting, you would see statements like "Dr. So-and-so suggested the
follwoing policy, and Denise Chuk seconded that. . .", and when being 
introduced to parents or other visitors, the two Doctors were addressed as
"Dr." but I was "Denise Chuk, who is a faculty member in this department."
Normally, I do not like to jump to the conclusion that sexism is to blame
for whatever unfair treatments I encounter, but that kind of treatment
in that department really made me mad.  Needless to say, I found another
job at a West Coast University immediately and left.

But to be fair, I must say I also encountered another type of sexism at
the other university, this time favoring women.  That happened when the
department was interviewing candidates to fill a tenure-track position.  
They invited two persons, a man and a woman, for the on-campus interview.
I felt that the man was very qualified, but he was striked out even before
he acutally showed up, since many female grad students were unhappy that a
man was even invited ("I cannot imagine they will hire a man!" one student
told me.) According to another student, he was rudely treated when he met
the graduate students, and I could see that he was already quite unnerved
when he gave his talk later.  Anyway, since the other woman was really not
quite good, so eventually the department hired a third person from the
short list, a woman, naturally.

The above descriptions reflect only my impressions and my opinion.

D.C.
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Jewish feminists
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:24:36 GMT
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations


	To any of you feminists ot there with names like
Goldman, Holzman, etc.-
Have you thought of changing your names to 
Goldperson, Holzperson, etc.?

				J. Wagner
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: jbrandt@NeoSoft.com (J Brandt)
Subject: Re: Dworkin...
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 00:57:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.152245.6886@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge) writes:
> 	She might also arouse less hostility if she didn't actively support
> and push for the passage of repressive legislation designed to give the State
> even more control over our private lives than it has already.
> 	Ideas are not dangerous, IMHO, until the State is pulled in to
> enforce them.  Then you've taken them out of the realm of civilized debate
> and put them into the law courts.  Dworkin and McKinnon can argue their points
> of view all they wish and I'll be happy to listen.  When they propose using
> the courts and police to shove them down my throat, I tend to get a bit
> annoyed.
> 
> The_Doge

I certainly would agree with that statement.  I don't know very much about
the kind of legislation she is pushing.  So are you saying that the ideas
she expresses in her book are fine with you and it's just her legislative
agenda that you object to?
-- 
Jaclyn Brandt
jbrandt@NeoSoft.com
--
From: lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Tom Lynch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: What's the purpose here?
Date: 29 Aug 92 08:55:29 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin


First, this is not appropriate for feminism but for feminism-request.

>> I agree, it is not appropriate for a moderator to be raveled in the
>> subject.  Since there are so many moderators, why don't you just
>> quite moderating and join the discussion without ethical issues
>> holding you back?  
>
>1. There are currently only two moderators; there should be four.  2.
                            ^^^^^
        you mentioned three including yourself earlier    

>*You* agree that it is not appropriate, *I* and other people do not.
>Why should we do what *you* think is appropriate rather than what *we*
>think is appropriate?  
     ^^^^^^
   so you admitt to biasing the group by censorship

> 3. Ethical issues are *not* (clearly) holding me
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                         emphasis and obfuscation - were you an
                         advertising major at one time?
>back.
>
>What *do* they teach them at these schools?

You are not a feminist, you are a fascist.  

You are not just a fascist, but an adept one.  First you turned my
suggestion into a big confrontation, then you made the confrontation
into an 'all of us' versus just 'you' thing (can't you see, a lot of
people are concerned about this, not just me, there is now even an
alternate news group).  You are trying to diffuse this thing by moving
it to private mail.  You are trying to belittle me be 'what do
they teach them at these schools'.  And finally you have moved the
discussion to an emotional level so that facts won't get in the way.
Be advised, anything you send to me will be public and annotated.

The only logic I can see for you to defend this position of moderator
in this fashion is a desire to control the group.

This whole issue isn't over your feministic views, it is over your
limitation of free speech on what should be a public media.
Unfortunately profanity and heated tempers caused us to desire a
moderated forum -- but not to controll expression of ideas.

They need a replacement moderator, where do I sign up?  Or do you not
agree with having people who hold differing opinions moderating a
group?

-tom Lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: mackenzi@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Paul Mackenzie)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminism & Women's Studies
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:22:29 GMT
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Originator: mackenzi@aragorn.mcrcim.mcgill.edu


Carol A Russell wrote regarding a question by Seth Meyer:

|> Seth, I don't know what other women will say...but for me, I just don't trust 
|> men anymore.  So many men give lip service to feminism, but in reality they 
|> don't support it.  In Susan Faludi's book "Backlash" she gives statistics on 
|> how many men *really* support feminism; if you get a chance, read it - then 
|> you'll understand why I - and perhaps so many other women - just don't have any
|> trust.  I'm not saying *you* don't care, or that you don't support feminism.  
|> But you're up against the old adage of "how to prove a negative", in this case 
|> that you're *not* anti-feminism.
|> 
|> And I don't think it is the feminist's goal to yell at men...but we have a lot 
|> of pent up anger.
|> 
|> carol

How should a man go about 'proving' he's not anti-feminist?  Does he have to
agree with everything a feminist says?  Is he does not, does that mean he
is anti-feminist?

Just wondering...

Paul
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: gara@cs.toronto.edu (Gara Pruesse)
Subject: Re: Respect and equality differences 
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:34:30 GMT

In article <ed.714494162@cwis> ed@cwis.unomaha.edu (Ed Stastny) writes:
>I agree that women don't get as much respect as the should.  The reason
>for this seems to be rooted in history and biology.  Women's physical
>structure is different from men's, as we all know.  People usually have
>respect for people they admire or fear (or both).  Throughout history,
>physical strength was the key to survival and dominance and thus
>garnered respect.  Women just kind of fell into the role of "mother"
>(which, in my opinion, isn't a "bad" role) and submissive/dependent.
>Men, for all that time being the "hunters"...developed
>"responsibilities" for provision.  Provision for the women and children.
>It became expected...thus driving men into more and more competition
>(for the resources)...thus leading to politics (smirk).  
> 
>My point is that the problems are historic and, though I don't suggest
>that anyone here as said it, aren't as simple as "just give me more
>respect"....we have to deal with the basic changes our society has gone
>through...and progress.
> 
>--
>Ed Stastny           *  SOUND News and Arts magazine available now via
>ed@cwis.unomaha.edu  *  anon. FTP: quartz.rutgers.edu (/pub/journals)
>                     *  or email from me here at cwis.  Soon to return 
>(Imagery is reality) *  to the GOPHER server.  Art and writing welcome.


What inane drivel.  

Pardon me, I don't have time to argue with idiots.  I barely have
time to call bullshit bullshit.

Learn something before you burden us with your two bit conjectures. 
Read something intelligent on the subject, something written in
the last 10 years, say, and then get back to us.

Cheers,

Gara

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer)
Subject: Freshm*n
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:16:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

How important is it to change the language to make it non-sexist?  For
instance, back at college, one campus (which comprised of only women)
organization decided to get the school to change the term "freshman"
with "first-year student" within the university.

Is this such an important issue?  If so, how far does one take it?  Is
the term "student" sexist because it has "stud" in it?  What about
other languages which have words which imply only one sex?

What do you now call a student who transfers as a junior from another
college but only get's X# of credits transferred and now is at a high
freshm*n level?  It's the student's third year but they're a
first-year student?

Is the language issue more important than fighting for equal pay, or
is it a minor but important step in the fight for equal rights?

What's your opinion on this?

- Seth

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: chris@unislc.uucp (Chris DelPrete)
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:11:50 GMT

One of the more telling incidents I remember is seeing the name plates for the
tellers at Zions First National Bank (a couple years ago):

Becky
Julie
Dawn
Linda
Mr. Bennett

*That* is sexism!  Imagine that!  Sexism in what my friend Bob calls, Ootah.
This Mormon-owned bank has recently changed that little policy.  (Good move.)



-- 
                          _   /|
Chris DelPrete Delaney    \'o.O'
chris@unislc              =(___)=
                             U
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Date: 31 Aug 92 10:32:35
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1bbnqca.tyger@netcom.com> <MUFFY.92Aug26180417@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<l9cnk5b.tyger@netcom.com> <LYNCH.92Aug31023446@flubber.cc.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu's message of 31 Aug 1992 07:34:46 GMT

In article <LYNCH.92Aug31023446@flubber.cc.utexas.edu> lynch@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Tom Lynch) writes:
      > tyger@netcom.com
      >Please, don't just dismiss it as the word of whiners this time.

      I don't recally dismissing it as the word of whiners before, and I
      certainly have not done so "this time."

      Muffy

   Incedible, she says this on the net the very same day she mails this
   to me (as Muffy knows from previsous postings (to which she replied),
   I was going to post her mail for this very kind of reason).

      Well, apparently what happened is that people started whining on soc.men
							     ^^^^^

*LAUGH*...right.  I said I *had* not done so, not that I would not do so
in the future (and the letter was writting after the post, even though
they may not have been read in that order).  Once again, Tom Lynch
attempts to justify his hypocrisy.

Muffy

--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: rweibl@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Richard A Weibl)
Subject: Re: ERA question
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:28:10 GMT

The arguments may be legitimate, but they really avoided the substantive nature
of the ERA intent.  The basic argument was that women should not be treated as
second class citizens solely on the basis of their sex.  That means, more
importantly than bathroom facilities, that women should receive equal pay for
equal work; employment, housing, and educational opportunities should not be
beyond the reach of women because of their sex; and that in issues of family
rights as defined by law, women should have equal access to resources, 
property, and government support.

What the opponents did was ignore these issues, displace the discourse in 
academic terms, and shaped the debate in a manner that was intended to appeal 
to irrational fears.

Ric
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: gworrell@carina.unm.edu (Gayla M. Worrell)
Subject: Re: Feminism & Women's Studies
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 17:25:22 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <3895@keele.keele.ac.uk> csa09@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Paul Singleton) writes:
>From article <1992Aug31.172158.16877@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by crussel@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Carol A Russell):
>> In <1992Aug31.142504.13145@panix.com> smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:
>
>>>I tried taking a women's studies class in college.  I thought it would
>>>be interesting to see what I could do to help reduce sexism in our
>>>society.
>>>...
>
>> And I don't think it is the feminist's goal to yell at men...but we have a
>> lot of pent up anger.
>
>An academic course on "women's studies" should not be a vehicle for working
>off pent up anger.  Many bitter people, male and female, get off on their
>own indignation, and those "feminists" who are merely doing that should be
>discreetly ignored.  There are serious issues to be debated, and anger and
>rhetoric can set this process back.
>----

Hey Paul - You wouldn't, by any chance, be saying that women really shouldn't
be angry, or that if they are angry they should be ignored, would ya. :-)

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: smithx@fraser.sfu.ca (David Smith)
Subject: Re: Unisex bathrooms
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:37:33 GMT

slarsen@beethoven.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:

>In article <MUFFY.92Sep2193344@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>
>>A better measure of "equality" would be "waiting time."  Especially
>>since it's not the time peeing that is important, but the time standing
>>there *needing* to pee...*grin*.  If there is no waiting time, the
>>facilities are clearly adequate (or more than adequate).  Now, if it
>>*does* take women longer to pee, then their waiting time would be
>>reduced if they were given additional toilets, correct?

>Since the worst lines I've seen to women's rooms are sporting events, 
>concerts, bars, etc. it seems to me a very practical goal to reduce/
>equalize waiting times for women.  If the woman is spending so much 
>time waiting to use the toilet, she is not spending that time at 
>the munchie or trinket counters.  Why keep women waiting to use a 
>free toilet when you could be funneling them to drop some extra bucks
>at the vending areas?


It is indeed possible to equalize these waiting times. One of the few
tolerable aspect of Toronto's Skydome is that it was designed with twice
as many stalls for women as for men with the consequence that there
are no lines at the women's washrooms. But then the Skydome was designed
to wring the most money out of all the the paying customers.

>Sue Larsen
>slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu

David Smith
smithx@sfu.ca
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:40:35 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <AWERLING.92Sep2203602@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>First of all, "first-year student" is clumsy and would be shortened
>into a slang word within days of its institution as a replacement
>title.  

"First year student" is used here (UK) w/o shortening.  "Freshers" is
also used, but only for students newly arrived, not throughout the 1st
year.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Bathrooms (was: Re: ERA question)
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:56:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug26.231830.24526@news.columbia.edu>, 
dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>    But I have a bigger problem in that I don't see why the ERA was neccessary
> in the first place. I am not aware that laws (as strickly written) apply
> differently to men and women. Even in places where a law uses the word 'man'
> we could interpret that to mean 'human' and be done with it.

When was the last time you saw a woman get drafted?  Women in the military are
*prohibited* from being in the higher-paying and faster-advancing combat jobs. 
Just off the *very* top of my head...
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism