HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rlb@access.digex.com (Richard L. Butler)
Subject: Straw poll - r.a.manga or r.a.c.manga?
Summary: more time...
Organization: The Fourth Drawer on the Left, Second Column
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 07:42:01 GMT

MHIGH@VM1.TUCC.TRINITY.EDU ("net.spy!") writes:
>
>[text of suggested straw poll deleted, hope you saw it]
>
>Voting begins now, and ends April 12th, noon, CDT.  Each vote will

A little more time couldn't have hurt - say until the 15th - remember, not
every site has a leased-line IP connection, and sometimes two days pass
between your post and other's receipt or your post...

my opinion is on its way anyway (not previously stated here, because others
are already saying whatever I had to say, anyway...)


>---"Well, she's no fun, she just fell right over." - Nick Danger, Third Eye!--

NICK: (sotto voce) Why, she's no fun, she fell right over! Wait a minute!
      Didn't I say that line on the other side of the record? Where am I?
      I better check!

SOUND: CHINESE TROOPS MARCHING


from "The Firesign Theatre's BIG MYSTERY Joke Book
      featuring

      NICK DANGER
      in Case No. 666

      and

      HEMLOCK STONES
      As the Giant Rat of Sumatra

-- 
 Richard L. Butler             rlb@access.digex.com             301-220-2020
 Digital Express Group, 6006 Greenbelt Road #228, Greenbelt, Maryland  20770
   **** Express Access: Online Communications in Washington/Baltimore ****
   * login as "new" for info, 301-220-0462 (Wash) or 410-766-1855 (Balt) *
From: bn510@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Matthew L. High)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Even more on the rec.*.manga debate
Date: 16 Apr 92 07:29:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr16.072950.14059
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


Well, now the straw poll is over - and the clear majority of news-
readers support r.a.manga.  However, I should note that the gap 
between votes kept closing as the poll progressed.  Early on, 
r.a.manga was beating r.a.c.manga by a 3 to 1 and even 4 to 1 margin.
Towards the end of the voting, however, more r.a.c.m. votes were
coming in than r.a.manga votes.

Enough people noted in their vote that they WOULD NOT vote for
r.a.manga if that choice won, and the margin of the win was narrow
enough that I feel that, if the CFV were issue today, for the group
rec.arts.manga, it would fail.  Both sides of the naming debate have
been going at it for some time now, and neither side seems to be
gaining any significant support.  If anything, it seems to be
alienating people.  Before we go any farther on this "Great Manga
Naming Debate", I suggest the following:

We (the readers of USENet) write up a mutually agreeable definition
for COMICS and for MANGA.  Just *what* *are* they, anyway?  How does
one differ from the other?  *DO* they differ at all?  I've seen      
several attempts by people to try and explain this, but with no 
great success (I've seen a couple of messages recently of people
still asking 'what is a manga, anyway?').

In a somewhat inflammatory message (directed at noone in particular)
I posted to alt.manga, I asked people to vote for the proposed
manga group REGARDLESS of whatever name is chosen.  Although I would
prefer rec.arts.comics.manga, I'll also support rec.arts.manga (with
reservations, and an understanding that it will be moved under the
rec.arts.comics.* heirarchy when the Great R.A.C. split finally
happens), or rec.arts.comics.asian.  I urge others to do so as
well.

Based on the level of support shown in the straw poll (149 votes -
egads!  Much more than I expected!), I think enough of us agree that
a rec.*.manga group is wanted.  Does it really matter THAT MUCH what
the name of the group is - in the long run?  Let's all get our
priorities straight here - the need for the group outweighs the 
naming issue.

Ambiguously yours,

 - mhigh@vm1.tucc.trinity.edu  (net.spy!)

PS Watch for the Bubblegum Crisis comic later this year, art by 
  Adam Warren!  Yow!
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: why do we have no votes?
From: razer@smaug.hacks.arizona.edu (The Artful Dodger)
Date: 13 APR 92 14:20:22    
Reply-To: razer@smaug.hacks.arizona.edu
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Big Bright Green Pleasure Machines, Inc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a4  

In article <Apr.13.02.34.18.1992.23615@dumas.rutgers.edu>, hedrick@dumas.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes...
>I notice that soc.religion.mormon has failed.  I'm worried that this
>failure is an abuse of the voting process.  As I understand it, the
>purpose of voting is to make sure (1) that there is enough demand to
>justify a group and (2) that the way it is implemented is appropriate,
>e.g. whether it's moderated, what it's called, etc.  I'm concerned,
>based both on the discussion here and on seeing who cast some of the
>negative votes, that people voted against it because they dislike
>Mormon ideas.  If so, I believe that's an abuse of the voting process.
>I've wondered for some time whether it makes sense to have negative
>votes.  Suppose every Usenet subscriber voted, and a group got 51% no
>vs. 49% yes.  I claim that group should be created.  49% of the people
>wanting to read it makes it a pretty popular group.  I think it might
>be more sensible to say that if there is no controversy over
>implementation, 100 yes votes is all you need, and if there's several
>possible implementations, you first vote on the possible
>implementations, with the plurality winning, and then do a vote on
>whether to create the resulting group.

	I have to Agree here.  I'd be intrested in hearing from
some of the people who voted no - what are your resons?  Does 
anyone have any that don't boil down to spite?

The Artful Dodger P65331727@CCIT.Arizona.Edu|Razer@Hacks.Arizona.EDU
"Can you imagine us years from today, sharing a park bench quietly?
  How terribly strange to be seventy!"
		-Paul Simon & Art Garfunkle "Old Friends" _Bookends_
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  comp.bbs.misc
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:31:53 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central


 Tony> == Tony DeBari <tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us> 

 Tony> If comp.bbs.waffle fails, c.b.misc would then become a misc group
 Tony> without a surrounding hierarchy.  I therefore suggest that if
 Tony> comp.bbs.waffle fails, the proposed comp.bbs.misc should instead
 Tony> be called comp.bbs.  If at some future time one or more subgroups
 Tony> are formed, comp.bbs could be renamed comp.bbs.misc at that time.

No, because then we'll get someone who wants to create comp.manga
instead of comp.bbs.manga... ;-)

Making a *.misc group early is going to prove to be a *real win* if
there is the possibility of a hierarchy later.  Until then, it's one
more inode to keep us from having to go through a reorg flamewar (which,
from experience, eats up a *lot* more space on the news spool...)

Please, let comp.bbs.misc be comp.bbs.misc whether or not the waffle
group passes.  (I think they're both good ideas, myself.)
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
From: jbos@mswe.dnet.ms.philips.nl
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: creation of eunet.aviation (I propose rec.aviation.world)
Date: 16 Apr 92 07:25:49 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups,rec.aviation
Organization: Philips Medical Systems Nederland

In article <1992Apr15.132305.10767@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>, hgp@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (howard.page) writes:
> 
> We don't get eunet.* here -- I propose rec.aviation.europe or
> rec.aviation.world.
> 
> Howard G. Page
I would vote for eunet.aviation
We do not get rec.* here...

Jan Bos
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA ( Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:00:41 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.180314.26965@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>Violating net guidelines is like violating the supreme law of the land 
>(USENET :-). Giving me as the reason is violating my human rights.
>My human rights have been violated on this net and I, Alok Vijayvargia
>want justice. Net users are the jury.

Oh boy.

>Because it is like overturning a veto. I am vetoeing the new RFD/CFV
>as the proposer/vote-taker of the first RFD/CFV which is being questioned.

Sorry, you don't get a veto.
-- 
/F{findfont exch scalefont setfont}def /S{moveto show}def /T{/Times-Roman F}def
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S (+1 713 568 1032 Trailblazer)24 20 S 12 T (Peter da Silva)24 45 S showpage
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT:  soc.religion.mormon fails 135: 169
Date: 16 Apr 92 10:09:22 MDT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Utah State University

In article <ANDRE.92Apr13154751@farside.slc.mentorg.com>, andre@farside.slc.mentorg.com (Andre' Hut) writes:

> This proposal would have tied (from what I have gathered) a
> large mailing list to a Usenet newsgroup.  Perhaps there were
> those who didn't want the mailing list to become quite so public.

No, the propsal was to gate to Fidonet.  That aspect was dropped
from the proposal that was voted on.  Fidonet is not a mailing
list, but a completely different network altogether.

> In any case, I highly suggest that six months from now, a new
> proposal be made that is more agreeable to everyone.  The propose
> for the RFD-period is to work out any problems with the proposal
> so that there is a reasonable chance the vote will succeed.  I
> basically felt that the proponents of this proposal were ignoring
> the negative comments.

Well, it never works out like one hopes.  I'm tempted to send out
a questionnaire to those that voted no to find out why so that
six months from now (or whenever) we'll have a better idea where
to start from.

I can only think of two reasons why people voted no:

1.  They thought the newsgroup as a whole was a bad idea.

2.  They were against moderation.


But I'm sure that these are not the only reasons people voted no,
and I'd like to know why to see if it's even worth it to try
again later on.

-- 
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Some comments on this rec.arts.{whatever}.manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 01:10:48 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr9.233526.16212@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty) writes:
>
>Fact 3: "Comics" is the English word for comic books, regardless of the
>	country of origin.
>
>Fact 4: "Manga" is the Japanese word for comic books, regardless of the
>	country of origin.  "Manga" is also used in the West as fandom
>	jargon to refer to Asian comic books.
>

No one, I believe, is arguing with the dictionary definition of comics
as given in fact 3.  What I am saying is that the way it is used in 
Internet, and even colloquially, strongly correlates it to western 
sequential art.  Look, despite the fact that I am a "non-native", I am
not as naive as to argue with dictionary definitions.  But I do know that
if we all talked with only dictionary defined terms, our everyday 
vocabulary would go through some change, since so much of our useful
language is colloquial, and jargon.

So, we learn to use these colloquial definitions for ease of conversation,
communication, and use.  Therefore, it is very important to understand the
effective definition of the words we use.  

Now, "comics" to my eyes, and as I've seen it in r.a.comics, has an effective
definition with strong western sequential connotations.  That's what I
have to say on the definition of comics.  

Furthermore, no one is saying that the discussion of Japanese 
sequential art is banned from r.a.comics.  The point was that r.a.comics 
is not a useful forum for the discussion of Japanese sequential art.  
R.a.anime is a better forum than r.a.comics.

There are two main points in the paragraphs above;  if you want to,
you can add them to your list.  If not, peace.

 

--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sharen@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (Sharen A. Rund)
Subject: Re: rec.autos.carhobby discussion?
Keywords: 41092
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 18:57:52 GMT

In article <7417@brchh104.bnr.ca> ericy@crchh435.bnr.ca (Eric Youngblood) writes:
>What ever happened to the discussion about creating the new automobile
>group for performance and muscle car enthusiasts?
>
>I was under the impression April 8, 1992 was when the subject was allowed
>to be proposed for discussion?
>
>Anyone Know?
>
>
I don't know - i've been trying to find something about it too
(and its a pain trying to get through all this manga crap)


-- 
________________       __        ________________   "They that can give up
\_________      \     /_ \      /      _________/  essential liberty to 
 \_________      \_____/  \____/      _________/  obtain temporary safety
  \___________________      __________________/  deserve neither liberty 
                     /______\                   nor safety."  
ALL disclaimers apply ....                           --Benjamin Franklin
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:13:17 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

>I would kindly suggest that all discussion relating to the subject
>matter (noted above) be kept in news.groups as a courtesy gesture 
>to the users of r.a.comics.  If you want them in the discussion,
>kindly ask them to read news.groups.  Don't paraphrase the discussion
>and keep the readers unaware of the full picture.  

>I'm starting to believe that your making this into quite a
>personal odessey, and I'm not sure that's necessary.

>Again, if you want r.a.comics involved, fine.  Ask them over to
>news.groups.  Paraphrasing, and posting where you feel people couldn't/
>wouldn't respond, is verging on being underhanded.

    I hope that everyone realizes that there would be less need for
summaries, and people trying to keep the readers of r.a.c informed if
the original RFD had included rec.arts.comics in the Newsgroup: line. It
would also be a good thing if Patrick posted an updated RFD that
sumarizes what has transpired in the debate thus far, and made sure that
it was posted to the correct groups.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: personals
Date: 8 Apr 1992 14:50:15 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Apr8.023328.21967@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>Sometimes "politically correct" makes no logical sense at all.

Make that "almost all the time"...
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
         "Grow up children. Purchase lives." -- Geoff Collyer
From: richardc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Richard Commander)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: RE: CFD Talk.aids
Date: 17 Apr 92 07:04:24 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


	Haven't seen any discussion for a couple of weeks.


	Is the proposal dead because of a lack of interest?


	Hope we can agree on a name and continue with discussion....


	-Richard.
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Some comments on this rec.arts.{whatever}.manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:36:53 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <axolotl.702879689@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty) writes:
> >Observation 2: Given Fact 6 and Fact 2, the logical naming for an Asian
> >	comics newsgroup would be rec.arts.comics.japan.
>
>Except that there already exists soc.culture.japan, sci.lang.japan,
>rec.arts.comics and rec.arts.anime, all of which discuss manga topics --
>certainly enough for manga to warrant its own high-level newsgroup.
>
>"logic" involves incorporation of all the "facts", doesn't it?

No, only the relevant ones.  The observation was not refuting the
validity of a manga newsgroup.  It was assuming that such was
required, and suggesting a logical name.

> >Observation 3: I think we can leave it rec.arts.comics.manga.
>
>Observation: this article ignores everything else that has already
>             been discussed.  Corollary:  it's not really relevant
>             here, at this point in time.

Dissent: The article in question summarizes many of the objections
that have not yet been effectively refuted by any of the
rec.arts.manga proponents, and is therefore both relevent and useful.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cfm2h@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Christopher Mullins)
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 02:07:22 GMT


>>  2) Select a name for the group.
>
>	comp.graphics.imageproc or something similar.  It should 
>definitately be someplace in the comp.graphics tree.
>

I think a more appropriate name would be comp.dsp.image, or comp.dsp.2d.
Image processing encompasses more than graphics - any 2 (or more) dimensional 
set of data can be processed irrespective of its use in graphics.  The numerous
comp.graphics.* groups show that most areas of image processing with ties to
graphics already have a news group.  Comp.dsp.image would not be limited to
graphics ideas but include dsp concepts without graphics connections - like
feature extraction for pattern recognition (not necessarily with images, but
any >1d signal), array processing and beamforming, etc.

Chris Mullins
cfm2h@virginia.edu
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: RFD: rec.arts.manga (was Re: 3x3Eyes question & r.a.m RFD)
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:43:26 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

Redirected from alt.manga....

Hades writes:

>>    Secondly, the original RFD has yet to be posted to rec.arts.comics.

In <1992Apr10.181549.13421@athena.mit.edu> pckyip@athena.mit.edu (Patrick C Yip) writes:

>The RFD was posted to r.a.c 2 days after the original post of RFD. 
>I guess Mr.Hades either didn't check the group carefully, or his newservers
>doesn't work properly.

The RFD posted in rec.arts.comics arrived here shortly after this exchange
took place. Of course, I only noticed it because I was looking for it. The
RFD appears as a reply and not an original post because it was reposted
with a "References" line in the header.  Many people may pass over it
because of this.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cerebus for Dictator in 1992!! | "One less mouth to feed is one less mouth
    "Vote for me or else."     |  to feed" - Cerebus (as the Eastern Pontiff)
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:18:39 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:

>In article <axolotl.702785613@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>>wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) writes:
>>
>>Well, that's certainly true.  But how often are charters respected?

>     As far as I know, NEVER. :-) :-)

    Don't read very many groups do you?


--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
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 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Why manga is a world apart from comics.
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:13:37 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <axolotl.702784352@syzygy>, axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:
>Here's a clumsy, but hopefully helpful, explanation (pulled off alt.manga).

[helpful description removed for the sake of the mythical net.bandwidth]

>Manga differ in format, presentation, subject matter, approach to the
>subject matter, history, availability, associated culture, technique,
>and even things like authors' esteem.

As far as the net is concerned, "comic" refers to any type of graphical
story, from kiddie comics, to superhero, to graphic novels, and from
your very own description, to "manga".

>There is[n't] any doubt that
>manga and comics are sufficiently different that manga readers would
>never read comics, and vice versa.

Which isn't the slightest bit relevant.  If someone wants to read rec.arts.
comics.manga without reading rec.arts.comics, that's fine.

Your real problem is you don't want to admit you read comics.  You want them
called practically anything else just so they aren't called "comics".  If
you object so very much, I submit the correct solution would be to call for
a rename of rec.arts.comics to rec.arts.graphical and then to request the
special newsgroup rec.arts.graphical.manga.

>I guess if someone had created rec.sport.boxing before rec.martial-arts,
>people would be clamouring for rec.sport.boxing.martial-arts.

I doubt it.  They probably would have fixed the heirarchy.  I doubt they
would have insisted that it is not combat of some sort, which is what you
are doing.  You are insisting on creating rec.chevy and denying it's any
kind of an auto.

[rec.arts.manga]
>satisfies just about everyone except those who think that they're
>"just comics" and should thusly be shoved under rec.arts.comics.

In other words, it satisfies everyone who wants rec.arts.manga and doesn't
want to admit they read comic books.

You know, I was dead neutral on this stuff before, but I loath and despise
spineless attempts to change the language to suit someone's own agenda.
I would have ignored this vote, but after listening to this claptrap, I'll
vote against it no matter where it's placed.  If it can look like a comic book,
read like a comic book, sell like a comic book, and have pictures like a comic
book, only a manga fan would correct someone who called it a comic book.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a "disgrace",
that two are called a "law firm", and that three or more become a "Congress".