HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Seeing Ki, Aikido
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:08:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: techbook.1992Aug19.190834.19628
Distribution: usa
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix

CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates) writes:

>>
>I was at one of Bob Nadeau's classes at the Aikido Summer Camp in
>San Rafael where he was asking his uke's to describe what the ki of
>a throw "looked like" to them.... They would describe things like
>it "had a low ceiling that pulled me under" etc. These were usually
>done with throws where Bob did not touch the uke... I just thought
>that I would report my experiences. Bob is very interested in
>teaching the "Aikido which can not be seen".

>Just a report on my experience. Yes, Bob Nadeau is very impressive.

>Fer

I haven't seen Nadeau for years but used to always catch his classes at
the San Rafael summer camp in the early 80s.  Having experienced his
aikido _and_ his teaching firsthand, I'd have to agree that he is very
impressive.  I always had the impression, though, that he was an
essentially non-verbal person trying to explain aikido -- and ki -- in
verbal ways.  Being from the Bay Area, of course, this tended to come
out in a sort of Marin psychobabble (no offense, Marinites).  My
impressions, admittedly, are colored by his late-night, non-aikido
classes which wandered way off into some pretty weird New Age areas.
Also, I noticed that his classes tended to build a kind of frustrated
energy level that required people to train very hard _after_ class to
get it all out: class itself tended not to be very physical.

Having watched several of Nadeau's students prepare for their shodan
examination, I would also have to say that after several years of
training with him they had little grasp of the basics, and had to dill
on them to gear up for the test.  They were, however, a joy to train
with.

Nadeau can throw HARD, by the way, psychobabble or not.

--Jeff Frane
  Multnomah Aikikai

-- 
gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) 
"Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe."
                                    --Thomas Jefferson
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Hips in aikido
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:09:50 GMT
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine

In <3476@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

>In article <2A91641C.16296@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
>>this, it depends.  If the opponent's hips are below mine, I would not
>>feel safe (that's the fulcrum, right there).  If the hips aren't, I'd
>>step back, pulling the oppponent down and out with me.

>	If you moved back I'd slide a leg behind one or both of yours
>and roll you over it.

That would probably depend on how effective my atemi to the kidneys
was!  <grin>.  Good point, let me think about that...

--Cindy


--
Cindy Tittle Moore       "For a beginner, there are about 100 stages of the
                          technique.  A talented beginner can expect a 90%
UCI Aikido Club           chance of success for each stage, and therefore a
Crawford Hall             (.9)^100 ~= 0 chance of success in performing the
University of California  technique properly."    -- Chris L. Kuszmaul
Irvine, CA 92717
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:55:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


>guest@jaws1.austin.ibm.com says:
> 
>>and (2) let me
>>know how effective you feel this to be as a fighting
>>art?( as opposed to  tai chi(sp?) which from what I've
>>read here in the past few weeks seems to be more of
>>a meditative pursuit ) 

I've seen some experienced WC people get thoroughly trounced in contact 
sparring, (something I personally think comes closest to the best single
test of efficacy) mainly because they couldn't accomodate their opponent's 
generalship.  But I've seen others that were absolutely *devastating*, and 
also mixed it effectively with boxing movement, and I have no doubt whatsoever 
that these people would be street-effective in the vast majority of situations.

I intend to study it myself in the near future to learn more about what it
can do for a martial artist in its strong areas.

As for Tai Chi Chuan, I wouldn't think *most* people today study Tai Chi with 
the primary goal of fighting effectiveness, regardless of its formidable 
potential.

						take care,

						todd
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: The rat, MA, and others
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 04:15:21 GMT

In article <16p8f2INNpu9@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>
>>Instead, old grizzly rat just
>>stood his ground.  Worse yet, he started making this horrible,
>>loud chittering noise.  Then suddenly, he jumped straight up in
>>the air a good 2' and came down running - directly at my ankles.
>
>He probably just thought you wanted to play. 

Yeah!  Just give the poor rat a chance, he will repay you a 
thousandfold.  Why, just the other day a rabid dog came over to my
house to play.  Since he's decided to stay, we have a cool guard dog
that no-one wants to mess with, one less child to feed, and I've been
given a cool new nickname by the guys at work... "Lefty."

Dakin "I'm an animal lover but I'm not nuts" Burdick
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
From: doug@celia.UUCP (Doug Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fencing
Date: 15 Aug 92 00:19:51 GMT
Reply-To: celia!doug@usc.edu (Doug Nichols)
Distribution: na
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

Ok, here we go...

Don't be making disparaging remarks about us foilists. We're very
sensitive, you know. The least little thing, and we'll likely be
off in a corner, inconsolable for hours on end....

Epee. Ooh! Toe touch! Hurt me!
Sabre. Sure. Cut off my head. Like THAT would stop me...

    :^)

Doug
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Help ! Need feet of DEATH !
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:40:18 GMT

Feet of death??  OK, here's what you do:  Put on an old pair of KEDS, no socks,
of course.  Keep them on 24 hours a day for 5 days whilst doing many varied but
highly strenuous physical tasks, preferably in high heat conditions.  DO NOT
BATHE.  

You have my unconditional M$e$i$k$d$o guarantee that in 5 days you will have
feet *so* deadly that even YOU may not survive.

Satisfaction guaranteed or 1/2 your money back!  Now THAT'S reassurance!
Make checks payable to CEO $ensei, c/o Andy Vida-Szucs, 13 Old Monmouth Rd.,
Freehold NJ, 07728.

	-Andy V.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates)
Subject: Terry Dobson, san news
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:17:57 GMT

Sad news

Terri Dobson died yesterday. He had a heart attack on Friday night
and never regained consciousness..... His family still has LARGE
medical bills from his surgery last summer. Donations to his family
will be greatfully accepted. I will post their address in Vermont as
soon as I get it.

For those of you who don't know who Terri Dobson is, he was a
personal student of O'Sensei, the founder of Aikido and dedicated
the rest of his life to teaching Aikido. The story about the drunk
on the japanese street car that was posted on this net recently is
his story.... We will miss him a lot, he was a warm and wonderful
person, who truly promoted the pursuit of harmony through the study
of Aikido....

Fer
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aikido<->judo
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:57:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Sergej,
	To me, the question was not 'which is better, Judo or Aikido,'
or anything like that.  For me, the point was what specific strengths and 
limitations are characteristic of typical Aikido training.  

In article <3448@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes...

>	What I'm trying to say is that a skilled grappler of any kind
>presents special problems vis-a-vis aikido techniques.  

>	Skilled practioners of striking arts don't present the same set of 
>problems.  

Yes, I agree with this analysis.  There are specific skills that 
grapplers use to counter grappling, and they are in an entirely different 
realm from what virtually anyone specializing entirely in striking arts is 
going to be very good at.   The same 'techniques', or general approaches that 
work well in Aikido against striking attacks (particularly such as long leads 
into Kaiten-Nage, or Kotegaeshi-Tenkan) frequently have trouble against 
experienced grapplers, but then the grapplers don't leave those kind of 
openings, so I'm not sure this is even a valid comparison ?   ...

... There is very little in most Aikido I've seen that even addresses 'grappler 
vs. grappler' confrontation, as they focus on in Judo.  It's mostly stuff 
that deals with body shifts during the closing of the gap or at the moment of 
convergence.   The closest thing I can think of in Judo to this kind of
practice is in the Kata, and to some extent in Uchikomi (is that the right
term for that fitting-in practice ?).  With the exception of some of the
Tomiki and other unorthodox variants, most of the 'contest' notion is
removed from Aikido philosophy of practice.

							kind regards,

							todd
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Hips in aikido
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:27:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

>In article <mckellar.714240655@sylvan-lk> mckellar@cs.UAlberta.CA (Neil McKellar) writes:

>>If I am the attacker, why move in this close if the opponent is still 
>>strong and centered?  If our chests are touching, it would be hard to 
>>generate any power short of just body checking wouldn't it?  

I don't think so. In the our T'ai Chi sparring class over the
last several weeks we have managed to generate enough power
in this situation and ones like it to bruise ribs, split
lips, and see stars, and we're trying to hold back enough
not to injure each other seriously.

>	I want to move in that close because it prevents almost all possible
>striking attacks unless my opponent re-opens some distance, and because
>it is the optimal range to execute leverage throws.  You generate your power
>the same way as always :-) by putting your hips into it.

It certainly prevents striking attacks that use extended limbs.
Several strikes still seem possible from this range, though,
based upon the abovementioned experience in T'ai Chi sparring.
And, of course, a lot of balance attacks are still possible,
as you would know well.
From: neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Yokomenuchi vs Hook-punch.
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:54:59 GMT
Reply-To: celia!neil@usc.edu (Neil Richmond)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <1992Aug19.020213.3028@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
>
>	The arm movement of a hook-punch is similar but not same as that of
>a yokomen style attack. So I was wandering how Aikido deals with the "hook" ?

We treat a hook just like a yokomen attack. You can use ukenagaeshi or entering
atemi with a tenkan and go into some technique like shihonage. The key is
to change the position of the target, your head. Entering and doing a tenkan 
works most of the time. It even works on circling kicks. Its effectiveness
comes from moving the target and getting inside the radius of the attacking
extremity.
 
>ps. In a similar fasion how does Aikido deal with the "upper-cut" in theory
>I believe this should be similar to 'ski' type attacks, is that so?

We would deal with an upper cut in the same manner as tsuki. Most of our pun-
ches come from the hip.

neil


-- 
Only 2690 shopping days left till the next millenium! 
Neil F. Richmond         INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu
Rhythm & Hues Inc.       UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Headlock escape for non-vampires (was Re: Biting in the MA's?)
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:53:33 GMT
	<l80s3rINN1nf@west.west.sun.com> <4404@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
	<1992Aug7.002223.16525@walter.cray.com>
	<1992Aug7.111844.7115@relay.nswc.navy.mil> <BsMCy2.AEM@apollo.hp.com>
	<1992Aug10.163813.13864@cpq
Organization: University of Utah

In article <1992Aug17.121014.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsmar@acad3.alaska.edu writes:

   In article <1992Aug10.163813.13864@cpqhou.compaq.com>, pipkinsj@cpqhou.compaq.com (Jeff Pipkins ) writes:
   > Let's assume that the opponent is standing and has you in a headlock
   > on his right side, using one or both hands.  Every escape technique
   > should be preceded by an attention-getter of some kind to focus the
   > attention away from your task.  Even in this awkward position, there
   > are many targets you can reach!
   > 
   > 	1. Kidney punch with your left hand (ouch!!!)
   > 
   > 	2. Use left hand to pinch some skin on the inside of their
   > 	right thigh.  (Be sure to twist! ;^)
   > 
   > 	3. Use left-handed genital-lock to counter right-handed head lock...
   > 	(This can be called the "persuasive approach"... ;^)
   > 
   > 	4. You may be able to reach up and grab opponent's hair from
   > 	behind and pull down to make him fall over backwards.  Of course,
   > 	this won't work on opponents with no "grabbable" hair, so one
   > 	of the other three methods are preferred.

   You must be nicer than I ...
	   5. Reach up and grab his face.  The pinky in the eye comes to mind.
	   And pull down.

[i hope i got the attributions correct...]

assuming the position described by jeff: you can also reach around
with your left hand and insert a finger between his cheek and gums,
and rip.  no matter how tightly your enemy clenches his teeth, you can
still reach into his cheek at the left side of his mouth.  beware of
being bitten!  do not insert your fingers between your enemy's teeth.

another possibility is to ram your left knee into the back of your
enemy's right knee as you sit down.  your enemy will tend to fall
backward as a result, and may let go.  remember that this will leave
you both on the ground, and you must face a different kind of fight
than you may be used to.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
From: bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun in general.
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:09:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.223351.25225@uwm.edu>, ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
> 
> I have allready revealed much more about WC
> then I cared too.  I have no regrets really, because I am happy
> I was able to contribute to the understanding of Wing Chun by
> various peoples on the net.  However, this conversation is starting
> to tread dangerously close to what some people refer to as 
> "trade secrets".  So at the risk of cutting the topic short, I
> can no longer go into any greater depth than I allready have.
> I also urge Peter and David to do the same.  

	"Trade secrets"???  Oh please!  
	
-- 
		Brian A. Ehrmantraut

BELL:   voice:(408) 492-0900  fax: (408) 492-0909  
USnail:	Auspex Systems, 2952 Bunker Hill Lane, Santa Clara, CA 95054
From: snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Bandito de AIDS busted
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:10:30 GMT
Organization: NAVAL SURFACE WARFARE CENTER

Reprinted without permission:
      "'AIDS Bandit' Pleads Guilty to Robbery, Assault" United Press 
International (08/13/92)  (Worner, Elka)
     San Fernando, Calif.--Wesley Pledger, the man who used a syringe  
allegedly filled with his own AIDS-contaminated blood to hold up  
victims in a string of robberies, pleaded guilty yesterday to  three 
counts of second-degree robbery, one count of attempted  second degree 
robbery, and one count of assault with a deadly  weapon.  Pledger, 
dubbed the "AIDS bandit," received a prison  sentence of 15 years and 
eight months.  The court ruled that  testing the blood in the syringe to 
see if it was  AIDS-contaminated would be irrelevant to the case.  
Because  Pledger was not convicted of a sexual offense, he was not  
required to take an AIDS test.


The point here is several of us train against knives, the school
I attend teaches 8 defenses against two attacks icepick and thrust.
Impressed?  :-)  :-) :-) 

Actually it isn't quite so bleak, we do freestyle a couple times
a year, against chalk tipped wooden knives.

I predict that this sort of thing is going to become more common,
fairly many people might fight against a perp with a knife, but who
would go up against a hypo?  The point :-) being there is no room
for error.

Strategy:  I think I would be tempted to start with a not too committed
front kick, the needle has *got* to be fragile and shouldn't be
dangerous from the side.  If they react to the kick, you could make
it a fake and try to crash down on the needle holding arm with a
forearm smash (kind of an agressive downblock), then with the needle
pointing down, execute some sort of centerline strike high such as
the neck to stun or disable to facilitate the disarm.  Gosh, sounds
good on paper doesn't it :-) 

Or run :-)  FAST! 
===================================================================
From: bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:41:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.164442.22065@uwm.edu>, ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
> The whole movement
> is a forward hop.  You don't want to jump up, and you want to try
> and stay on the same level.  One hand is pushed out, and the other
> slightly behind it.  (I won't give out the exact details).  
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	I understand - such secrets are not meant for the masses...


-- 
		Brian A. Ehrmantraut

BELL:   voice:(408) 492-0900  fax: (408) 492-0909  
USnail:	Auspex Systems, 2952 Bunker Hill Lane, Santa Clara, CA 95054
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Awww, rats...
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:33:08 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Aug18.124330.11108@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:
>  but *I* would not go out of my way to kill any living creature
>  with the *occasional* exception of a mosquito who has just bitten

	Personally, I squish cockroaches.  In fact, one of the nice things
about rats is that they eat cockroaches.  Anything that eats cockroaches
is OK in my book...  I wonder if Lauren is vegetarian?

	I think some of us are being to...hard...on Stephen.  I mean,
let he who is without sin an' all...  Too much conflict.  It obscures the 
lessons.
				"Sometimes it seems ya get shown the light
				 in the strangest of places,
				 if ya look at it right..."


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Seeking Feedback (was Re: Shotokan misconceptions)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:39:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.130348.5448@fns-nc1.fns.com> sbs@fns-nc1.fns.com (Syd B. Seifert) writes:
>
>SOOO - my confusion lies here:  I do not understand the point of learning
>inefficient or ineffective moves, katas, forms, blocks, rituals (answer
>"yes sir" loudly and count loudly to show confidence (?!!)).  The 
>inconsistencies and non-sense of the moves has made it impossible for me to 
>get much out of the instruction.  What am I missing here?
>What do "pure" forms of M.A. have to offer that justify teaching
>"impure" moves (those that may be inconsistent with their own philosophies
>or with those that just plain make sense).  I welcome ideas and feedback!

Traditional styles have the following advantages over hybrids:

1.  Easier to teach
2.  More widespread, so you can find a similar school wherever you go
3.  Give more confidence, because they are teaching "the same way they
    did thousands of years ago."

Frankly, it sounds like you left the perfect dojo to practice at an
average one.  It's always hard to adjust in that sort of situation.
I suggest you submerge your ego as best you can and practice harder
than everyone else (to increase your fitness) if you can stand it.
If you can't stand it, I'd suggest finding another school or finding
a private sparring partner and establishing your own exercise routine.
However, you'll probably learn something if you stay in the dojo, even
if you just learn how inefficient all those techniques are.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
From: heller@teucer.think.com (Steve Heller)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: the five kwans
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:30:35
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
NNTP-Posting-Host: teucer.think.com


About two and a half weeks ago, I put out a request for information from
anyone who could trace their lineage back to one of the five kwans
(schools) in Korea that were merged into Tae Kwon Do in 1955.  I only got
*two* responses.  With all the bandwidth on this group discussing TKD, I
can't believe that noone else can contribute.

Perhaps I was not specific enough about what info I'm after.  I'd like
information both forward and backward in time, both from pre-1955 to you
and anything before 1955 would be golden.

Please take a few minutes to send in any authenticateable (whatever that
means) info to which you have access.  Most of my original post is below.
I will eventually summarize the info to the group.

thanks   -steve
(steve heller  ---  heller@think.com)


================================================================
As I understand the development of Tae Kwon Do, there was a merger of five
schools or *kwans* in the 1950s as the name Tae Kwon Do was accepted.  I'm
interested in deriving family trees of instructors from the five schools,
and I'd only like to include information that can be explicitly attributed
by an authority.

Please send me the following information directly (heller@think.com) if you
are able to send email, otherwise post.  I'll post both the raw and
digested information in a few weeks.

I'd like to limit the tree to include people who trained in Korea and who
became instructors.

I'd like all information to include as much as possible of the following:

Name, instructor, original kwan, current rank, current city, source of
information, your relationship to the source of information.

My contribution would look like:

<snip>

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mdperry@boulder.colorado.edu (Marc D. Perry)
Subject: INFO REQUEST: Have you compared Aikido styles?
Keywords: yoshinkai
Reply-To: mdperry@boulder.colorado.edu (Marc D. Perry)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:03:22 GMT

I used to train in Aikido Yoshinkai, but here in Boulder all of the
aikido instructors are affiliated with other schools.  I want to start
training again and am not sure what the major differences and
similarities are between the various styles (I believe the two major
dojos here are Ki Society and Honbu (or is this called Aikikai?)).  I
was wondering if anyone could tell me of their experience switching
between aikido styles.  

Thanks

marc p.




Marc D. Perry                               (303) 492 8258                     
MCD Biology, Univ. of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309-0347         
internet: mdperry@boulder.colorado.edu