HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mazur@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Beth Mazur)
Subject: Re: Aerobic Heart Rate Question
Organization: Intermetrics Inc, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:01:20 GMT

In article <850@jgaltstl.UUCP> terry@jgaltstl.UUCP (terry linhardt) writes:
>So, the question is: what does a person gain by exercising as part
>of a weight control program? The person who is walking slowly is
>already burning almost all fatty acids for energy. What is gained
>by increasing the intensity up to ~75% to ~85% of maximum heart
>rate, which are the 'classical' recommendations?

For one thing, you can do more.  I can walk three miles in an hour (and
burn 300 calories) or (if I could :-) I could run 8 miles in that same
hour and burn 800 calories.  If I am fit, I am going to be burning close
to the same percentage of fat calories running as an unfit person will
be doing walking.  And that means an extra Big Mac a day :-).

Exercising at a higher intensity is how one gets "fit", or so some of
the "experts" say.  Here's the relevant paragraph from the longer article 
I posted today:

	...Aerobic exercise draws heavily on fat for fuel, and the body's
	adaptations to exercise reflect that. For example, repeated 
	aerobic exercise stimulates the muscle cells to manufacture more
	mitochondria, the intracellular organellse that perform aerobic
	metabolism. Another adaptation: the heart and lungs improve in their
	capacity to deliver oxygen to muscles. Thus the body that exercises
	aerobically becomes well-suited to the task; its muscle fibers
	contain more aerobic metabolism equipment, and the body has a
	greater heat and lung capacity. These adaptations are not reserved
	for trained athletes only...Just 20 minutes of aerobic exercise,
	three times each week, stimulates even the untrained body to
	adapt by packing its cells with more fat-burning enzymes and by
	improving the ability of the heart and lungs to deliver oxygen.

Beth Mazur                   "...life is more than a vision.  The sweetest
mazur@inmet.inmet.com         part is acting after making a decision."
...!uunet!inmet!mazur                                  -- The Indigo Girls
From: loszewski_im@hnrc.tufts.edu
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: Ephedrine and Caffeine
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:08:16 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University

In article <1992Sep30.132233.11064@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> In article <168726F30.RICK@ysub.ysu.edu> RICK@ysub.ysu.edu (Rick Marsico) writes:
>>          Caffeine  and   ephedrine  can   increase  resting
>>          metabolic  rates   and  increase   fat  metabolism> 
>>          There is also some unpublished
>>          data which suggests that  this combination acts as
>>          a "nutrient repartitioning  agent," increasing the
>>          proportion of  muscle mass and reducing  the total
>>          feed   requirements    in   growing    pigs   (9).
> 
This is BULLSHIT!! This combination WILL NOT INCREASE MUSCLE MASS!!  JESUS 
CHRIST  WHERE THE HELL IS THIS SHIT COMING FROM???????  THE RATIO OF MUSCLE
MASS TO FAT WILL CHANGE IN FAVOR OF MORE MUSCLE MASS TO FAT, BUT THE OVERALL
AMOUNT OF MUSCLE IS NOT GOING TO INCREASE!!!  BESIDES, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK
THAT WE AS HUMANS ARE NOT IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS SWINE!!
Forgive me for the outburst, but maybe I have misunderstood this most enlighten-
ing quote.  Can anyone out there elaborate upon this more clearly.  
My God, I think I just had a 'ROID ATTACK!!!  :-)

-Rob


> Actually, the term "repartitioning agent" is pig-farmer jargon
> in an ag-school lab coat.  It means you get leaner pork chops.
> I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide whether
> this has much to do with bodybuilders. :-)  These "repartitioning"
> or "finishing" agents are often controversial, and some of them
> can cause problems in the pigs before they get to market (lameness,
> increased infections, etc.)
> 
>>          Supplements which  include ephedrine  and caffeine
>>          are  being  promoted to  athletes  as  performance
>>          enhancers.   Whether or not the concentration sold
>>          in  various  "natural" products  can  actually  do
>>          anything has  not been reported in  any scientific
>>          study,   but the  athletes should  be warned  that
>>          these products  may produce  a positive  drug test
>>          for banned substances (27).
> 
> Yep.
> 
> -- 
> Steve Dyer
> dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: DEHP@calvin.edu (Phil de Haan)
Subject: Re: What muscles do Pull Ups build?
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:29:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.181957.14213@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald) writes:

>>>Pull Ups work your biceps and lats.  Narrower grip works more biceps
>>>than lats.  Wider grip works more lats than biceps.

>>OK folks, I'd like some advice. I've been working out for a year now, and 
>>have made great progress on everything except pullups. I still can't
>>do them. Well, on a good day I can do one and on a great day, two.

>       Your body weight is the whole deal.  I used to be able to do
>25-30 pull ups at one time.   I lifted all the time, but I also ran
>long distance, and was skinny as a broomstick.   Now I can do any
>number of sets with 0 reps, or as you say, 1 or 2 on a great day.

>       As I can still do quite a few lat pull downs at over my old
>bodyweight (how well, btw, do "lbs" on a Universal pulldown machine
>compare with real "lbs" of pull-up bodyweight?"), my weight is the
>only limiting factor.

It's true that body weight is a factor in the ability to do pullups, but 
only to a degree.  If one used to be able to do 25-30 pullups at one time 
and now has trouble doing one or two something's wrong.  I'm not overly big 
by any stretch of the imagination (6-0, 175), but I have no trouble doing 
four or five sets of pullups, including a couple of sets with weight.  And I 
do them once in a while with a guy who goes 6-2, 205.  My brother is 6-4, 
215 and regularly does four or five sets of pullups.  Don't use body weight 
as an excuse or reason not to do pullups.  IMHO there's no better lat and 
back exercise.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Phil de Haan (DoD #0578)                                       Every day
 Calvin College                                                        is
 Home of the 1992                                                    ride
 NCAA III men's                                                   to work
 basketball champions                                                 day
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: karl@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Karl Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 01:34:31 GMT
Subject: Re: love handles
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: misc.fitness

In misc.fitness, beng@dorsai.com (ben ng) writes:

> I used to be overweight, 180lbs. Now I'm a comfortable, fit 150lbs.
> I'm exercising constantly, weights, push-ups, sit-ups, squats, etc.
> Yet one thing eludes me. Yep, them evil love handles..left over from
> my obese days..and still some bit of fat in the stomach area.
> I need to know of an excersie that will help me lose this fat, the love
> handles and something that will tighten the skin..other than surgury. :)
> Because of my sit-ups, I can see the ribbling washboard but faintly.
> Any ideas? Thanks All.

I was almost in the same situation.  I'm 5'5'' and was 152 lbs.
I started running and doing weights, sit-ups, etc.  Well, when I
got down to 142 lbs, I had the faint washboard.  Now I am 132 lbs
and I think I look very good:  No love handles, 6 pack stomach,
and very very little fat that I can see.  The running got rid of
the fat (35 miles per week) and the weights kept the muscle on
or possibly increased my muscle mass.

I suggest you do some aerobic work to lose another 5~10 lbs of fat.
I don't know what I did to tighten the skin, but believe me - its
tight as a drum now.

Karl Watanabe
karl@sc.hp.com
From: jon@bai.baylis.COM (Jon Granrose)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Ephedrine and Caffeine 
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:46:05 GMT
Organization: Baylis Automation Inc. (Scotts Valley, CA)


In article <168726F30.RICK@ysub.ysu.edu> RICK@ysub.ysu.edu writes:
  >           Caffeine  and   ephedrine  can   increase  resting
  >           metabolic  rates   and  increase   fat  metabolism

Sorry if this was posted earlier, I just started following the ephedrine
thread.  I recall a post several months ago suggesting 100mg caffeine and
25mg of ephedrine 3xs a day.  But since this is from memory, the
possibility of error is large.

Can someone tell me what the current recommended dosage is?  I'm not too
keen on the thought of drugs/chemicals/etc. in my body but after increasing
my aerobic workouts and working on my diet and not seeing too much of
a difference I thought I'd give this a try.  In case anyone is wondering,
I'm doing 30 minutes of Lifecycle or Stairmaster (alternating daily) 5x's
a week and lifting weights 5x's a week (chest/back, arms/shoulders, legs)
with lower back/abs MWF.  I've seen a lot of change in my body
shape, but little noticeable change in my body composition.


Jon
---
Jon Granrose (JG102)			jon@baylis.com
Baylis Automation			...!netcomsv.netcom.com!bai!jon
5550 Scotts Valley Dr, Suite 500	voice:	(408) 438-7327
Scotts Valley, CA 95066			fax:	(408) 438-1105
                  "Groovy."  -- Ash, Evil Dead II
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: jeffh@pisces.sps.mot.com (Jeff Heilner)
Subject: A question....
Organization: SPS
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:42:34 GMT


Here's a bizarre question about an observation I had....

It seems every time I see pictures of bodybuilders, or even male models on  
fitness magazines, they are completely void of body hair (or at least  
chest hair).

I suppose the reason is that the lack of chest hair results in better  
muscle definition, but is this a genetic requisite for being a  
bodybuilder/fitness magazine model, or do they regularly shave their chest  
hair (OUCH!) or get rid of it in some other way?

Just wondering.


- Jeff
From: U52809@uicvm.uic.edu (Chuck Amsler)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: swimming vs. running
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:51:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92275.085119U52809
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago


In article <1992Sep30.232702.16722@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>,
lorenzo@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Eric J. Lorenzo) says:
>
>My friend has been telling me that swimming 1 mile is equivalent to 4 miles
>on the road, cardiovascular wise.  I'm sure there are factors that are
>involved
>in making a statement like this, but in general is it true?
>
For whatever it's worth, I alternate swimming workouts with running and
equate 500 meters in the pool with 1 mile on the track.  For example my
best 3000 m swim times (in workouts) are very close to my best 6 mile
workout run times.  However, I'm a pretty good swimmer [or, at least, I
used to be 8-) ] and am only a "middle-of-the-pack" runner.  Also, swimming
is probably a better all-around workout, so your mileage may vary.
Considering all the variables, I'd guess that your friend is in the
ballpark.

  -- Chuck Amsler
     U52809@UICVM.UIC.EDU
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: split routine question
Date: 3 Oct 92 15:42:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Oct3.154224.3194
Organization: Western Washington University



	I want to break it down into three or more days, as two has 
become unsatisfactory.   I will probably keep legs on one day, and
parcel out my non-leg day into two or more.  Could some of you give 
example of your 6, 5, 4, or 3 day routines?    

Thanks.

Jim
Newsgroups: misc.fitness,rec.running
From: reidyj@CS.ORST.EDU (Jay Reidy)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness,rec.running
Subject: Re: Fat Burning Primer
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:43:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: CS.1992Oct01.194308.732
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Oregon State University

In article <1992Sep29.135034.24746@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>>5. So what happens if I run out of glucose ? Can I run on fat ?
>>Very Very painfully perhaps. Genrally your glucose will last about
>>17 to 18 miles. Then you run out causing the famous WALL in the marathon.
>
>Yep. But what do I do about it? How can I get to where I can run
>very hungry...
>
  I've taken food along the way when I run.  Getting a cola (with sugar
  and caffein) ans some bread or pretzles or something like that has
  at least stopped the hunger pains.
  
  As far as running through the wall is concerned, there is some who advocate
  long runs of 30 miles or more so your body builds up the endurance for 
  the marathon.
  
  I think this may be anecdotal, but when I first start teh season, if I race
   can do it the next day.  Then wehn I go a 20 it hurts till the next time
   I try it, so I must be getting som training benefit  from each run, and
   getting my body stronger with each time I stretche it out.
   a 10 miler it hurtsi
From: SSDC2@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (J Green)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: split routine question
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:54:10 GMT

>From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
>Subject: split routine question
>        I want to break it down into three or more days, as two has
>become unsatisfactory.   I will probably keep legs on one day, and
>parcel out my non-leg day into two or more.  Could some of you give
>example of your 6, 5, 4, or 3 day routines?

5 and 6 day routines are tough. you should try to work each bodypart
AT LEAST once a week. twice is better.
for advanced bodybuilders who workout 5 or 6 times per week, each
bodypart should be getting hit twice.

possible three day routines:
   day 1: legs
   day 2: back/biceps
   day 3: chest/shoulders/triceps
   (add abs someplace!)
or
   day 1: legs
   day 2: back/shoulders
   day 3: chest/triceps/biceps
   (add abs someplace!)

possible four day routine:
   day 1:  back/biceps
   day 2:  shoulders/abs
   day 3:  chest/triceps
   day 4:  legs (+abs?)

notice that all of these possibilities work shoulders and chest
BEFORE triceps, and back BEFORE biceps. this helps to pre-exhaust
the smaller arm muscles during the larger chest/shoulder/back
workouts.

also, if you work triceps before chest/shoulders (either the same
day, or the day before), they will not be ready/recooperated to
help perform chest/shoulders.
the same goes for working biceps before back.

some people (probably those with larger arms than mine! ;-) feel that
there should be some specific order for biceps and triceps. i'm not
sure they all agree. i've heard some people say they can't get a
good triceps pump if the biceps are worked/pumped. others say the
opposite. i can do them in any order without any problems! ;-)

one more note...
in the second example above, when back and shoulders are done on
the same day, you may wish to rotate which is done first. for example,
on the first back/shoulders workout, do back first. on the next back/
shoulder day, do shoulders first! to give each a "fresh" workout :-)
similarly for chest/shoulders if they are done on the same day.

Janice

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Janice Green, Research Programmer      Social Science Data Center   __o
Janice_Green@Brown.edu                 Brown University           _`\<,_
SSDC2@BROWNVM          -+||-----||+-   Providence, RI (USA)      (*)/ (*)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: kbarss@scott.skidmore.edu (Kelly Barss)
Subject: Re: Clenbuterol Clarification
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:38:13 GMT


> I thought Clenbuterol is on the list of regulated substances already. So, how can one get it legally ?
> 
> /Matthias 

You can't buy it legally unless a Dr prescribes it for you.  According to Muscle Media 2000 you can get it on the black market but it's not at all a good idea. This stuff is potent and you could easily overdose on it.  At least this is my understanding...tempting isn't it!!??  :)

Kelly.
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: Optifast (Liquid diets)
Date: 3 Oct 92 02:16:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Oct3.021644.14931
Distribution: usa
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <BvIH41.5uH@iat.holonet.net> wendysue@iat.holonet.net (Wendy S. Reynolds) writes:
>Has your friend talked to a physician about this "coldness" of hers?
>There is no proof that a liquid protein diet causes your metabolism to
>slow.  If there is, I'd like citations.

I don't know about permanent changes, but feeling cold is part of
being on a restricted diet.  It must be true, I've felt that way
myself on Optifast! :-)

>What is her body fat percentage as compared to prior to her using
>Optifast?  Is it lower?  Perhaps too low?
>Has she had her blood volume measured?

Yeah, she should see a doctor and get checked out.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: kbarss@scott.skidmore.edu (Kelly Barss)
Subject: Re: Who won the Nationals?
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:52:33 GMT

seove@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (ERIC OVERTON) writes:
> 
> Who won the National Bodybuilding contest?
> 
> Eric

Which National Bodybuilding contest?

Kelly

Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: djk@saki.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Douglas Knights)
Subject: Re: Bailey & Butter Burning Revisited - Short Summary
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 18:38:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.165541.6470@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, watanabe@sunflower.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) writes:
|> pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt) writes:
|> 
|> >[So that we don't get completely lost, I'm including references that Ed didn't
|> >have in his message...pae]
|> 
|> >In article <1992Sep22.194513.7908@mcnc.org> ekp@mcnc.org (Edward Pavelchek) writes:
|> >>In article <1992Sep22.023043.25766@stortek.com> pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt) writes:
|> 
|> >>>>5) The remaining hypothesis seems to be that fit people are more active.
|> >>>>Research on this is still very new, and inconclusive.  Should this turn out
|> >>>>to be true, it yet bears no relation to 'better butter burning', or fat
|> >>>>burning enzyme levels.  (Note that this is orthogonal to 'Are fat people
|> >>>>less active?'.
|> 
|> >>>It may not have much to do with "better butter burning," but it certainly is
|> >>>consistent with what Bailey recommends: besides regular aerobic exercise,
|> >>>besides shifting your diet to complex carbos, alter your day-to-day (actually
|> >>>minute-to-minute) habits: park far away in the parking lot, take the stairs,
|> >>>etc., etc.
|> >>>
|> >>>It really is there in the _TNFoF_, Ed. To categorically ignore this is
|> >>>inconsistent with your typical thoroughness in your research.
|> >>
|> 
|> >>Except when I am lured off track, I try to discuss 'better butter burning'.
|> 
|> I have been convinced by Steve Dyer's arguments that there is
|> little evidence that metabolism is significantly changed by exercise.

Steve does not know everything.  From my understanding, exercise does not
per se increase your metabolism but helps produce the enzymes which burn fat
which in turn cause your metabolism to "increase".

|> 
|> However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that persons with 
|> lower percent body fat have a higher basal metabolism than another
|> person of the same weight with a higher percent body fat. This makes
|> sense offhand, since muscle is what does the work.
|> 
|> Anyways, this brings up a number of questions:
|> 
|> 1) Is this true, that muscle burns more calories than fat?

Yes....fat does not burn calories.

|> 
|> 2) Can the results in Bailey be accounted for by the fact that people
|> who exercise reduce their percent fat, and thus experience a 
|> "higher metabolism"?

Yes.....as well as increase those fat burning enzymes mentioned above.

|> 
|> -Larry Watanabe
|> 
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: billb@crpmks.uucp (Bill Bochnik (Info Systems))
Subject: Re: Stamina
Reply-To: billb@crpmks.UUCP (Bill Bochnik (Info Systems))
Organization: Ciba-Geigy Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:26:09 GMT

Thanks to: 
	Kishore D.  Sadani
	Larry Watanabe

I'm going to try a couple of the ideas expressed.  

-- 
Bill Bochnik			| It's hard to be a James Bond in an Abbott
Systems Analyst 		|	and Costello world.
Ciba-Geigy Corporation		| Signed and sealed, they deliver oblivion.
philabs!crpmks!billb		| It's worse than that, he's dead Jim.
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Ephedrine and Caffeine
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:41:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.010642.22830@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>There is no evidence _at all_ that caffeine in doses such as you'd get
          ^^
>from a couple of cups of coffee a day causes any long term problems at
>all.  It can aggravate insomnia and stomach acidity in some susceptible

Never say no.  There have been studies published suggesting links, but weak
evidence.
I wonder how caffiene compares to the other stimulants discussed in this
newsgroup in terms of health.  Substances such as caffiene and nicotine
are allowed by our government because they have been commonly used for
centuries, but that doesn't make them more safe than alternatives.
From: silver@woodstock.umd.edu (Adam Silver)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Clenbuterol Clarification
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:23:04 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

Maybe I should have said that Clenbuterol is more anti-catabolic than it is
anabolic.

							-Adam

Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: mikev@col.hp.com (Mike Vigil)
Subject: BORON instead of steroids
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:31:36 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

Does anyone have any information about BORON.  I'm a drug free power lifter.  
I receive a monthly drug free power lifting magazine called "The Natural".  In 
this magazine there was an ad for Boron.  The ad reads as follows:

  Now there is a safe and effective replacement for steroids.  Boron can 
  increase Testosterone levels up to 300% in 14 days without the harmful 
  side effects of steroids.
 
  Research by Medical scientists of the Department of Agriculture have shown
  up to 300% increase in test subjects. 

  For Huge Increases - Order your 3 month cycle of Boron today.
  Boron 3 month cycle Order #55001 $17.95

The name of the company is JTR LABS.

Has anyone used this product?  
Is it as effective as they say?  
Does it really increase the testosterone level?  
Do you know of any harmful side effects?  If so what are they?  
Is JTR Labs a reputable company?

Newsgroups: misc.fitness
From: loszewski_im@hnrc.tufts.edu
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: Ephedrine prices & suppliers, aka "Dymetadrine 25", etc.
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:06:54 GMT
Organization: USDA HNRC at Tufts University

In article <Bv4sL7.HMJ@casper.cs.uct.ac.za>, ibarrett@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (I G Barrett) writes:
> Can anyone give brand names for products which contain Ephedrine Sulfate 
> (rather than HCL); preferably pure rather than a combination medication?
> I've only been able to find the HCL.

Ephedrine HCl is the pure form.  For those of you who contacted me about where
to get it, here is the info.

Hops Sports Nutrition, 800 Broadway Mall, Haverhill, MA  I don't have the zip.

Phone:  1-508-521-5218 Accept M/C, Visa, C.O.D.. Mext Day delivery, Free shippin

The brand of Dym 25 is by AST Research  and comes in a bottle of 100 25mg tabs
for $10.00.  It is an excellent brand.

-Rob

> 
> Thanks
> Swan Wulfgur			I turned silences and nights into words.
> 				What was unutterable, I wrote down.
> brrian04@uctvax.uct.ac.za	I made the whirling world stand still.
> ibarrett@casper.cs.uct.ac.za		- Arthur Rimbaud
> 						A Season in Hell
> 
> 				Swans fly silently to the burning sky.
Newsgroups: misc.fitness