HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Gore
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:57:27 GMT
Reply-To: ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

There is a very interesting interview with Al Gore in Christianity Today this
month, on his environmental stand.  Very, very surprisingly, it is not critical
of Gore -- even though CT admits "Some readers of Gore's book might wish he had
been more cautious in his statements about religion and enviornmental concern.
Is he just too sanguine about world religions?  Is he too quick to believe the
rosy picture some activists have painted of ancient paganism?  Or is this
experienced politician merely saluting all religions rather than appearing to
treat his own with special favor?"

Even I am surprised that CT would not be more critical, especially if what
Marrs says is true.  I have read Marrs, and yes he is somewhat alarmist, but if
he condemns people by what they actually write . . . I don't know. 

I hope that if Marrs is right, that this is merely an oversight on CT's part.

Eric
--
/=============================================================================\
| Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer     For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
| Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA  pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
| ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com          they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
\==============================- 2 Th 2:15 -==================================/
    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.
From: believer@world.std.com (Frank G Sesco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 6 Sep 92 19:36:50 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

In article <Sep.5.16.59.14.1992.17228@athos.rutgers.edu> laura@catfish.ocpt.ccur.com (Laura Gillespie) writes:
>I don't know if all of you are aware of it yet, but a big event just
>happened last night on the radio.  One of the most respected, humble,
>and trusted servants of God, Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio,
>headquartered out of Oakland, Calif., actually gave a prediction for
>the end of the world, that is, for the Second Coming, for September
>1994.  Now, this is a REALLY SERIOUS matter, since Mr. Camping is
>just about the most conservative Bible commentator on the air.

I guess this answered my question about the dream. 
Now I must reflect and pray on what GOD wants. How can our resources and
time be best spent before the end? I feel perhaps I have become so caught
up in the fight to save the country itself, that I have ignored my duty
to save souls. Does anyone have any thoughts on what we should be doing
now? 

>When somebody like him, with his knowledge of the Bible and background
>of always taking the sure, low-profile approach to spreading the gospel
>to the world, decides to walk out on a limb (and off of it!) ...
>well, *that* means something.  Something BIG!  

My feelings exactly. All the signs of the end of the world are here,
but maybe we have been to busy to see them? How lucky or unlucky are
we to live in this time?

>He's publishing a book, called "1994"
>(Vantage Press), in order to get the word out as much as possible.

Did he give an address where we can order it?

>As a matter of fact, I expect that the more "undeveloped" nations
>will have the biggest positive reactions to it.

It is written that the Gospel must reach all nations before the world
ends. How much of the world has yet to hear the Gospel?
-- 
  |                     In God We Trust                            |
--+--                                                            --+--
  |                                                                |
  |                                                                |

[I believe a previous posting indicated that the book is available
from Baker and Taylor, one of the standard book distributors.  If so,
this means any bookstore can get it.  Since Vantage is a subsidy
press, most of its books are probably not carried through normal
channels, but it sounds like this one will be.  --clh]
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:47:15 GMT
Organization: Glassboro State College

Some fellow has cooked up Yet Another Apocalyptic Timetable, and we have had
quite a bit of discussion.  Steven Stovall wrote:

> Bro Camping is betting the farm that he is right.  Either we're outta here
> or his ministry is finished.

Then why is he charging for the book?

Why doesn't he take out a big loan to be paid back in 1995, and give the book
away for free?  Or sell his home/farm/whatever to fund distributing copies of
his book?

In the past, people who followed Doomsayers sold their houses and quit their
jobs in preparation for The End, only to be left destitute and disillusioned
when The End didn't come.  But so far as I know, none of the religious leaders
who predict The End have ever given up THEIR financial security.

I will not pay for the book, because I will not put money in the pocket of
someone who claims we won't need it much longer.  As a matter of historical
interest, I may try to get a copy after 1994 (when I suspect it will show up
in dozens of used book sales, or be heavily marked down in bookstores).


Strictly speaking, the exegetical science of Predicting The End has an exactly
zero success rate.  People have been doing it for 2000 years, and nobody has
ever been right.  That's the single worst record that I can think of for any
group of Biblical exegetes.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Er... hello.  Er, look, I'm sorry I'm a bit late.  I've had the most ghastly
 time, all sorts of things cropping up at the last moment.
 Er, how are we for time?  Have I just got a min--"
                   -- The Great Prophet Zarquon at his Second Coming,
                      10 seconds before the End of the Universe
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wandering Catechist?
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:19:47 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Sep.13.22.00.13.1992.7062@athos.rutgers.edu> 91babik@gw.wmich.edu (Lisamarie Gemma Babik) writes:

   Anyone know for sure what a "wandering catechist" is?  Since I'm new to the 
   church (received 4/18/92), I figured this was just something I didn't learn 
   about...

I think you will find that the great majority of catechists in the
Catholic Church are wandering.
From: markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Salvation and the purpose of evangelization
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:48:17 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <Sep.4.02.28.36.1992.29216@athos.rutgers.edu> hp-col!smithw@kd4nc.ampr.org (Walter Smith) writes:
>It is this sort of thinking that makes me real nervous, and why
>I'm very skeptical of conservative Christianity.  If a missionary
>goes and teaches someone the principles that Jesus taught, but
>doesn't actually impose "Christianity" as a religion on him, do
>you feel he has done anything?  If a person lives by those principles,
>but never even hears of the religion "Christianity" or the name
>Jesus, is God going to cast him away?  Or, does he, by his actions,
>show that he knew Christ in his heart without knowing the Name?
>
You might be "nervous" with the concept that "no man cometh unto the father
but by me" (Jn 14:6) but I find your reply downright scarey!  To think that
someone who leads a "good" life of Biblical principles but hasn't accepted
Jesus' atoning gift can be saved is totally contrary to the Bible.  This
isn't a "conservative" verses "liberal" Christianity issue...this is a
"saved by faith" verses "saved by works" issue.  It is apparent that the
passage in Romans that I quoted doesn't mean much to you.
To think that one must "impose" Christianity on someone is ridiculous.
Are you an advocate of the crusades?  No one can impose repentence and faith!
That is a matter of the heart, from a desperate sinner to his/her savior.
You need not reply to this for I have no desire to quarrel with you.  I
merely reply in part so that other readers who are less founded might
not be led astray down the wide path of your apostacy.  This may 'sound'
offensive, but I don't mean for it to be.  I have no tolerance, however,
for false teachings about salvation...and neither does God.
Mark
From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: GIF of Rylands papyrus available
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:43:45 GMT
Organization: none

There have been some problems accessing a couple of the files I
advertised.  I had to change their names; the archive server doesn't
like :'s or ,'s in file names.  The new names are:

    bw-pictures/misc/p52-rylands-papyrus-john-18v31+32+33+37+38-circa-100AD.gif
    bw-pictures/30-days-magazine/copyrighted/qumran-fragment-7q5-possibly-mark6v52-53-circa-50AD.gif
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (9-12)
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:57:45 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Saturday, September 12:

     The praise of Jehovah my mouth will speak; and let all flesh bless 
his holy name to time indefinite, even forever.  <Psalm 145: 21>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:01:39 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

[I've generally been rejecting postings on this subject, since at this
point they are variations on the general them about setting dates.
His is one of the few that actually give us some idea of what the
prediction might have been based on.  --clh]

I heard something about the Jesus-coming-in-September theory on tbn a few
days ago.  Josheph Good was speaking about it.  He did not pinpoint a year
but he did explain part of the reasoning behind this idea.  

The beginning of the month in which the feast of trumpets were held would
begin at the first sliver of the new moon.  The month could not begin untill
the council had testimony from two reliable witnesses that the first sliver
of the new moon had appeared.  According to JG "no man knows the day or
hour" refers to a Jewish idiom.  No man would know exactly what the day or
hour of the blowing of the trumpets would take place.  The Jews would
blow a trumpet every day of the month until the day before the feast of 
trumpets, it was said, in order to confuse Satan so that he would think
that the feast was over.  Then trumpets would be blown for two days during
the feast.  The names of two fo the trumpets were the last trumpet and
the great trump.  JG believes that Jesus refers to one of these trumpets
earlier in Matthew 24.

Link Hudson.
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (9-13)
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:53:31 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Sunday, September 13:

     The generous soul will itself be made fat, and the one freely 
watering others will himself also be freely watered.  <Proverbs 11: 25>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: c164-dy@po.berkeley.edu (David Loo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Service Project Ideas
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:08:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley

A Christian youth group I'm part of is interested in new ideas
for varias service projects so I figured I'd post and see what
the net could come up with.  If you've done any interesting service
projects, would you e-mail me a list of ideas?


	Thanx in advance,

	Smiley
	c164-dy@po.berkeley.edu
From: vek@allegra.att.com (Van Kelly)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: cell group churches
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:14:52 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ, USA

[The topic at hand is the issue of children in a cell-group church]

A close friend of mine has been involved in a cell group with
aspirations of becoming a growing, multiplying cell-group church.  The
problem is, they are still about the same size today (12-20) as they
were 15 years ago.  One major reason is that they have not found any
satisfactory way to handle children.  They've tried "everything".

In a group of that size, resources are scarce, quarters are close, and
one unruly rug-rat can torpedo an entire service.  If you design
separate worship experiences for the young'uns, there goes a
significant fraction of your adult resources.  If you "mainstream"
them, just pray for deliverance from Attention Deficit Disorders
("hyperactivity") and other neuro-behavioral problems.  Even the most
firm, disciplined parents may not be able to contain them for a full
hour, and if they break loose, there goes your service!  Believe me,
I've seen it happen.  There's nothing quite like a 6-year-old
berserking during prayer time to leave a lasting impression on
first-time visitors.

This problem is somewhat easier to handle in a larger network of CG's
rather than in the standalone CG-cum-church I described.  A larger
church can offer variations in CG structure tailored to life
situations.  A one-size-fits-all approach will suffer more severely
from attrition.

Van Kelly
vek@allegra.att.com

The above reflects only my own personal opinions, not my employer's.
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Disagreeing with one's church (was Re: Clinton & Gore)
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:11:42 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Sep.10.01.45.59.1992.21992@athos.rutgers.edu> anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell) writes:
...
>I've been interested, ever since I first heard of it, of Newman's theory of a
>sensus fidelium -- the idea (the learned correct me if I err) that the

I've not heard of a formal name for this approach.

>convictions of the body of the faithful on a particular subject can also be
>inspired by the Holy Spirit, just as the pronouncements of the hierarchy are. 

Agreed.  However, the New Testament model is that of elder rule, but note
the elders are to be picked as good sound persons (I/II Timothy and Titus) 
and, I believe, this may and maybe should be done by the congregation.

>I assume that an educated laity, consciences properly formed, is required here,

Remember in Acts 4:13, the town or religous leaders saw that Peter and John
were unlearned and ignorant men, but they marvelled at them and took note
for they had been with Jesus.

>although I haven't checked.  If the sensus fidelium does exist, then it becomes
>necessary for the church to do a lot more talking with itself about
>controversial issues.  It also behooves people like me to become much more
>educated in our faith than we are -- and that is a most desirable thing as
>well.

The path a church congregation reaches should, obviously for them, as for 
the leaders, agree with what is taught in scripture.

>* Liz Broadwell (by643@cleveland.freenet.edu) ***************************

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
From: jcarroll@ferris.cray.com (Jeff Carroll)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Southern Baptists Ensuring Orthodoxy
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:16:19 GMT


 cnc405@bnr.ca (Charles (C.F.) Board):

>Just curious as to how you can place the Virgin Birth doctrine in the "essential"
>category. Keep in mind that Paul managed to "create" Christianity without
>relying on it and the earliest Gospeler saw no need to mention it! Clearly, it
>cannot be considered an ESSENTIAL teaching based on the New Testament. 

Any denomination that is catholic enough to profess the two creeds has to
hold the Virgin Birth as an essential doctrine (at least to the extent that
it's true to say that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary"). Since I've never
crossed the threshold of a Baptist church on Sunday morning, I don't know
whether this would apply to them or not. It certainly applies to most of
mainstream American Protestantism.

Besides, I'd say that Matthew 1 (possibly among other texts) provides a
pretty sound footing for the essentiality of the Virgin Birth as doctrine
based on the New Testament.

My present understanding is that the doctrine of the Virgin Birth is based
on a mistranslation of the original Hebrew of the Prophets into the Greek
of the Septuagint, which was used by the gospellers as their source for
prophecy which they considered to be fulfilled by the birth and life of
Jesus.

It's certainly possible to formulate a doctrine which arbitrarily excludes
the Virgin Birth based on arguments like these; but the doctrine which we
*do* have mentions it explicitly.

Jeff Carroll
carroll@reston.cray.com
From: han@npg-sd.sandiegoca.ncr.com (Chuck Han)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:42:28 GMT
Organization: NCR Corp., Network Products - San Diego

In <Sep.6.15.36.49.1992.7766@athos.rutgers.edu> believer@world.std.com (Frank G Sesco) writes:

>It is written that the Gospel must reach all nations before the world
>ends. How much of the world has yet to hear the Gospel?
>-- 
>  |                     In God We Trust                            |

The exact verse of Mt 24:14,15 from KJV states,  "And this gospel of the
kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all
nations; and then shall the end come.  When ye therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand."

Of course, what precedes Mt 24:14 is the rapture and the 7 year
tributlation has already been started:

	   MATTHEW 24		REVELATION 6
           ----------   	------------
           Mt 24:4 = 1st Seal Judgement, White Horse, Anti-Christ
		Many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and
		shall deceive many
	   Mt 24:6,7a = 2nd Seal Judgement, Red Horse
		And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars..
		kingdom against kingdom
	   Mt 24:7b = 3rd Seal Judgement, Black Horse
		and there shall be famines
	   Mt 24:7c= 4th Seal Judgement, Pale Horse
		and pestilences
	   Mt 24:9 = 5th Seal Judgement
		Then shall they deliever you up to be afflicted, and
		shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations
		for my name's sake.
	   Mt 24:7d = 6th Seal Judgement
		and earthquakes in divers places.
	             7th Seal Judgement, silence

Thus, if you are a born again Christian who is anxiously wating to
get raptured, you won't be around on this earth when the gospel is 
preached in all the world!  Everything that needs to be fulfilled
has been fulfilled already for Rapture to occur!
From: cnc405@bnr.ca (Charles (C.F.) Board)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Southern Baptists Ensuring Orthodoxy
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:11:04 GMT

In article <Sep.10.03.40.27.1992.24196@athos.rutgers.edu> Richard Pitts said:

>If one can't produce good argument and the issue is not essential, then
>I can see your point, but most of the issues I've seen/heard seem to 
>fall into the category of essential (e.g., the Scriptures being the Word
>of God, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Deity of Christ, His resurrection,
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>etc.)

Just curious as to how you can place the Virgin Birth doctrine in the "essential"
category. Keep in mind that Paul managed to "create" Christianity without
relying on it and the earliest Gospeler saw no need to mention it! Clearly, it
cannot be considered an ESSENTIAL teaching based on the New Testament.
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bashing that Bad Old Government
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:46:26 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln

gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) writes:

>As far as what governmental officials should do, they should work to
>change the expectations of people regarding government.  They should
>work to make a political culture where people will be able to say ``I
>can't'' again, and where those who make grandiose claims they can't
>fulfill are castigated, whatever party they are of.

>This doubtless will not happen during this political season.

Well, this is quite true.  I've been having an extended discussion with
some folks about this, and I just wanted to clarify that I don't dis-
agree that government is too big, or malfunctioning, or inappropriate
in some areas of life, etc. etc. etc.  I guess more than anything I
wanted to challenge the concept that there's this great faceless,
Godless machine called Government, when in my experience it has a 
human face, the face of people like ourselves, some of whom are very
devoted to service and operating from Christian motivations.  Per-
haps their efforts are ineffective, or even misguided, but the intentions
were good.  That doesn't excuse everything or mean things don't have
to change, and I agree completely w/ Mr. Gilham in his closing remarks here.
 
--
===============================================================================
paul marxhausen                              \/               grace 
university of nebraska - lincoln             /\              happens           
===============================================================================
From: tford@convex.com (Tom Ford)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:34:57 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA

In article <Sep.9.01.14.28.1992.16613@athos.rutgers.edu> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
....
>
>And there were abundant scriptural proofs for many other times.  I'm not
>convinced, I just plan on being prepared.  NO man knows the day, nor the
>hour... 
>--

I met a guy recently when I was on jury duty.  I started talking to him because
he was reading a book by Hal Lindsey (I forgot the title; it wasnt Late Great
Planet Earth).  Anyway, he half-jokingly said, "I know we cant know the day or
hour, but can we know the year, month and week?"  :-)

Tom Ford
tford@convex.com
From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Sandy Patti Divorce??
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:03:16 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

Not that I wish to explore sordid details of another person's
life, but am quite curious for explanation and clarification,
is the rumor true that the famous gospel singer Sandy Patti
is filing or has filed for divorce?

She was just on television this past weekend singing at a
Billy Graham event. I know she stands for the family and
has a long and excellent reputation. So that I and anyone I
ever talk to about her may not be caught flatfooted, could anyone
clarify or substantiate whether this saddening and shocking
rumor is true?

I read this rumor over in the christian music newsgroup, but 
the source was a non-believer. 

Hoping 'tis false.
Pete