HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Summary: yeah, and *ALL* the pictures are dumb wrong, too
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:18:51 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <1992Apr12.052434.21230@nic.umass.edu>, S7041551@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (Lew Stead) writes:
# In <1992Apr10.041435.7808@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> an725@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:
# 
# > 
# > This is in regard to "Jesus was a pagan" part of the original subject.
# > 
# > From what I know about Jesus I would say He was most likely was a 
# > pagan.  It's too bad that some "christians" have done terrible things
# > in the name of Jesus.
# 
# Jesus was a Jew.  He, being part of the Jewish Tradition, was a monotheist.
# He was not a Pagan in any way shape or form.  While some of his social ideas
# certainly are in line with many of the social ideas of todays Pagans (and
# many are NOT), the same could be said of any religion or philosophy.
# 
# If you look at his religious teachings, there's no mention of any sort of
# polytheism, feminine divinity, or anything else Pagan.  It's just a few bits
# of "be nice to one another" stuff that resonates with us -- and we don't have
# a monopoly on being nice.

I agree with all of the above. Thank you. Synthesis is fine, but 
contradictory threads *do* need weeding out.

Btw, I could also point out that *no* picture I have ever seen or heard 
of knows diddly-squat about him; at least there ain't any I know of that 
portray him *with his head covered* (you never before heard of a yarmulke?).
(B-{)>

	mark

/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Apr 92 02:02:39 GMT

In article <10277@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.151611.9064@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@isis.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>Then what ever became of all those Neanderthals?  They managed to make it
>>through earlier interglacials, but not the last one.  We know that these
>>people made weapons and were always improving the technology; how can you
>>be so sure that they never used them on anything but animals? 

Why does everybody always assume that the Neanderthals DIED OUT?  They
were as much human as any Cro-Magnon.  Is it just possible that they
interbred or something?

I once heard something that made sense to me.  If you got a Neanderthal
and dressed them up in modern clothing, you probably wouldn't give them
a second glance.  But an Australian aborigine?  THEM you'd look at.  And
no one would claim that they are anything but full human.

So why this problem with Neanderthals?  It's called interbreeding,
people.  I've read a bunch of junk on this, and I've NEVER seen anything
that would make me think that Neanderthals "disappeared" or were "killed
off" or anything like that.

Blessings,
Janis
  
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Beyond the grave
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 06:38:02 GMT

shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith) writes:

>>How do you connect a ouija board to the net?

>Use a virtual socket of course:-)

>.. TCP/IP using poletrgeist and other unreliable carriers of
>datagrams ought to be able to achieve reliable end-to end connections
>to various spirit worlds.... Who will fund me to build the first
>Internet Gateway to the Astral Plane?

Well, there are already all those daemons running around the net...but those
may be ethereal, rather than astral...they may have come in through the
EtherNet. :-)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
               --Pug and Bran
From: dan@wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Dan Parmenter)
Subject: Seeking Thomas Morton and/or Merry Mount references
Organization: /home/fsg/dan/.organization
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 05:00:46 GMT

Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Maypole of Merry Mount" tells the story of
an early Massachusetts colony that celebrated Pagan revels, much to
the annoyance of the local Puritans who dealt with them harshly.

Apparently, the story is based in part, on truth.  Where the city of
Quincy now stands, Thomas Morton established the community of Mount
Wollostan, aka Ma-re Mount aka Merry Mount.  Morton annoyed the other
settlers at Plymouth by trading rum and furs to the natives, cutting
into Plymouth's trade.  They were also rather annoyed at his
celebration of May day as a pagan revel, fearing that Merry Mount
would become a haven for the "wrong element".  He was marked for death
and Myles Standish was dispatched to take care of him, though he ended
up being deported back to England rather than executed.  

A contemporary account from Plymouth's then governor:

"They also set up a Maypole, drinking and dancing aboute it many days
togeather (sic), inviting Indian women for their consorts, dancing and 
frisking togeather like so many fairies."

Apparently Morton himself wrote an account of his experiences called
_Newe England Canaan_, but I'd be curious if any other accounts
existed.  Any "historical pagans" out there have any idea about this
one?

I'm intrigued with it due to the fact that rather than the overreacting
blind hysteria that motivated much of the Salem witchcraft tragedy,
this bunch were apparently unabashed pagans.  

I'm also curious about the particulars of the religion that he and his
followers practiced.  After his deportation did the "church" completely
die out?  Another intriguing element is the seeming native influence
on the customs - Hawthorne's fictional account includes a distinctly
native character with an "Indian" Chief revelling alongside Morris
Dancers.  Furthermore, Hawthorne's account makes the claim that the
festivities are even vaguely connected with Church of England, which
doesn't sit too well with the stern Pilgrims either.

My one source for most of the information herein is a book called
_Massachusetts: A Guide to the Pilgrim State_ by Ray Bearse - an
intriguing book that in spite of looking like a cheesy tourist manual
actually includes a comprehensive look at the "hidden" side of
Massachusetts' history, the things we shouldn't be proud of.

Any additional information on this fascinating Massachusetts colony
known as Merry Mount is appreciated (I learned most of this just
today, so I haven't called any historical societies or anything).

- Dan

--
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Parmenter       |"When I saw you, you looked so surprised           |
|                     | the oceans flowed in your blue-grey eyes.         |
|                     | We stood and gazed through hot summer days,       |
| dan@gnu.ai.mit.edu  | so tell me, how does it feel?" - Spacemen 3       |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Defects (was worship of greek gods)
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:45:59 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <92106.190128IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> what i get if i leave my glasses off is a headache.
> 
>                                        -ailsa

Don't know how reliable the source was, but I've been told that if you don't
wear glasses or wear an incorrect prescription (sp?) for an extended period of
time, it will actually make your eyes worse than they would be otherwise.

If I don't wear my glasses, I get a headache bigger than the glasses
themselves are...

--Semhaza
From: hwa5@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (denni c hwang)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Cult of Thor?
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:02:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: quads.CMM.0.90.2.702579777.hwa5

I believe the punch line of that joke (or something along those lines) was
used in _Sandman_, issue 26 (?), by Neil Gaiman.  Thor (hung over from a
banquet the previous evening) is telling a joke to a bunch of assembled
deities from lots of different pantheons.
"...so I said to her, 'I am Thor!'  She said, 'YOU'RE Thor?  I'm tho thore I
can hardly pith!'"
Met with blank stares from all around.
Two panels later the demon lord Azazel threatens to hang Thor's tongue from a
hook in his throne room.

--Dennis
(former net-lurker, first try at alt.pagan!)
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Defects (was worship of greek gods)
Summary: see you one & raise you one - glasses *do* run in families
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:14:01 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <29E9D2BF.21742@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> In article <20149@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
> >
> >	I read somewhere that myopia may actually be caused by reading,
> >or more generally by excessive use of the close focussing eye muscles.
> 
> And *I* read somewhere that it might be genetic.  We don't really know.
> I've seen it run in families; it certainly runs in mine.
> 
<stuff deleted unrelated to myopia>

I'll *eat* my glasses if it's not genetic -*everyone on my mother's side
of the family needed glasses by the time they were 12-14, and I *know*
that not all my cousins were bookworms (like me).

> And I'm beginning to wonder whether wearing these damned things and my
> glasses isn't just training my eyes to be crappy.  I'd love to not wear
> them for one year and see if my vision improved.

I've seen a book with excercises to supposedly strengthen the eyes - never
did try it long enough to see if it worked.

> Blessings,
> Janis C.

	(B-{)>   mark (with glasses)


/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Subject: neanderthals
Reply-To: xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 13:50:01 GMT

my personal thery is that the cro-magnine man evolved into us because of
being more war like.studies of histery show that to be a beter determanation
of secesion then technoligy, as well as the fact that we do seem to have that
tendency and tend to discrimanate on looks. i have seen neanderthal recon-
structions and the skulls. there extream difrinces are less evedent whin
tisheu and skin are in place. neanderthals brock of from the main line long
befor cro-magnon. the two were about as relater as apes and gerrilas. the 
slant in the forhead was do to a lake of frontal lobes(primary function tellin
 the moter cortex how to move the mouth ect mucless to vocalize speach) as far
as things go i dont think that they dissapered so much as adapted.  ( intere theory concerning bigfoot) if you had to worry about you graves and dead being
desacrated you would comup with a way to avoud it. ie cremation, intern-
ment.

ELF-KIN on the lighter side of reality-some ones
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Defects (was worship of greek gods)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:49:12 GMT

In article <28834@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>In article <20219@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
>>	I have a book called "Better sight without glasses" which says that
>>wearing glasses makes temporary ey sight problems permanent. It is based on the Bates method, and also includes dietary advice. Some people get marvelous
>>results from leaving their glasses of, but some get no result at all. I forget the author;s name.
>
>The Bates method was authoritatively debunked decades ago.  But bad pennies
>just keep turning up, don't they?  I believe you can find out more about
>this form of quack medicine in Martin Gardner's FADS AND FALLACIES IN THE
>NAME OF SCIENCE.

Goddamn it, Tim.  Couldn't you have let me dream?

Oh, well.  Looks like the glasses stay on.

Blessings,
Janis
From: nausicaa@hrnowl.lonestar.org (Nausicaa)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: SF fans et al.
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 92 22:21:30 CST
Organization: Horned Owl BBS, Houston Texas.

shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith) writes:

> 
> Tim (Maroney) seems to be getting all hot under the collar about SF
> fans in general.
> 
> All that power fantasy, dressing up in weird costumes,
> Alt.sex.bondage! Am I missing something here - sounds *wonderful*
> 
> :-)

It just came to mind that people dress up in odd costumes upon halloween... 
Does this mean to him that the people who dress up for fun on this holiday 
are power-hungry as well?
 
Nausicaa
From: ed_l1@verifone.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Seeking Polish Witches
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:48:27 HST
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI

My grandfather was from the old country (Poland).  Although he died while I 
was still a pre-teen, I retain some very strange memories, and have some
strange reports from my siblings.

I remember in his back yard there were fields of violets.  This was in
Stamford, Connecticut, and that land is currently under Interstate 95.

He would walk out into the woods and whistle, and dozens of birds 
would come and sit on his head and shoulders.  He wasn't feeding them
when I was there, but they didn't seem motivated by food, anyway.
It is possible he tamed them using bird seed, I suppose.

Anyway they used to peck at his lips, as if they were kissing him.
They never came to me or lighted on me while I was there.  Then at some 
point they would begin to leave, a few at a time, till they were gone,
and he was left standing there with a beatific smile and an awed
grandson.

My mother confirmed this in later years, and said that he probably fed
them and she never thought much of it.

My elder sister also confirmed this, and also related a few strange s
stories:

He used to take her out into the woods where a stream ran, and teach her
about plants and animals.  One day she said that he had a chicken in 
a little shed he had built out there. He killed the chicken,
pulled a "red string" out of its middle and tied it around her wrist.
She said he was very solomn while he did it.  She didn't tell me if
he recited or chanted or said anything about it at the time.

Around this time she started getting interested in other things and 
spent less and less time with him.

I'd like to add that my grandfather's home was very "Catholic."
There were pictures of Jesus over the bed, crosses with bleeding
icons, holy water by the front door, the whole nine yards.  I remember
hearing my grandmother talking about "God" and "Jesus," but I can't 
recall hearing that from my grandfather.

In later years both my elder sister and one of my younger brothers
seriously turned to Wicca, and continue to practice.  My sister figures
that my grandfather was using some kind of "Polish Folk Magic."

It has intrigued me for years, and if any of this seems familiar to
anyone, I would like to hear from you, either in email or posts.

-- 
===========================================================================
|| Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A. Earth ||
||   Anthropologist, Writer, Editor    -*-     IN%"Ed_L1@VeriFone.Com"   ||
||   Opinions Copyright (c) 1992 Ed L'Esperance.  All Rights Reserved    ||
===========================================================================
From: duniway@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Duniway)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:16:24 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Apr14.014502.15534@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC) writes:
>
>I'm honestly concerned that this question was asked. The sacrifice is
>central to so many pagan myth cycles, so central to my understanding about
>how we are spiritually and physically bound to the earth. Are there pagan
>groups who don't have a sacrifice theme in their beliefs? How do they
>reconcile this with a connected view of the world?

Give me a break.  You don't see animals wasting food to demonstrate how
connected with the world they are.  A tradition that does not incorporate
libations or sacrifice does not necessarily imply a failure to acknowledge
our physical and spiritual ties to the world, nor is it a form of denial
of our dependence on goods we did not create, and which are beyond our
control.  I don't have any objection to using sacrifice to reinforce this
point, but please show some respect for traditions that believe the 
conservation and utilization of the worlds treasures is a sacred act of 
equal merit.  There are many paths.
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: touchiness
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:04:05 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <4430@radian.UUCP>, markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
> In article <loren.36@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu>, loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
> # In article <4413@radian.UUCP> markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr) writes:
> # >When one is hasseled for years, one has, it seems to me,
> # >a right to be touchy, and to defend oneself. I, for another example, am a 
> # >product of the 60's, and leftist. Should I not be touchy, when "politically
> # >correct" people tell me I'm out of date, and that I was mistaken back then?
> # 
> # imho, defending oneself presumes that one is being attacked.
> # -- 
> Are you implying that I don't know when I'm being attacked, or that I haven't
> been attacked, or that I'm so paranoid that I can't tell the difference 
> between a *personal* attack and a scattershot attack (and is that really a
> distinction?). If you want to discuss *that*, I can document it out the wazoo.

None of the above. I should have finished what I said when I said it. I
was saying that I am unable to find, in the original post for which
Janis flamed me, any language that would lead a reader to think I said
that all americans of italian descent were mobsters, criminals, or
carried switchblades. My comment was a comment on political structure,
posted in response to a comment on political structure.

Since Janis did find such an intimation, but didn't explain how it was
coded so that I could find it, I said that IMHO she was overly touchy
about the subject for finding a reference to it where none was intended
nor evident.

> To restate a followup post of Janis', are you implying we don't have the right
> to be "touchy", or that such feelings aren't valid (read: nobody else has to
> care about their feelings, they're just touchy)?

Note that I'm speaking from a somewhat Gurdjieffian understanding here.

You can be as touchy as you want. I will try to be sensitive to you and
other "touchy" people, but don't expect me to know the personal history
of everyone I might offend by posting.

Likewise, it is the way you frame the perception of an event that
determines its emotional impact on you, not the event itself. Some
people like coffee; I don't, by conscious choice. No one conscious
perception is any more real than another. You can manipulate your
perceptions of events as much as you like, and it doesn't affect your
inner self, only the personalities you show to the world. When people
make minefields of touchiness around themselves, the mines that go off
don't hurt me. I can't even see them until they react. I may be
sympathetic to them, I may be disgusted, but I certainly can't spot the
mines ahead of time.

The bigger the minefield, the more touchy you are. If your minefield is
outside your land, then you're overly touchy. Does that make sense?

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                  internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Throw this screen against the wall, right now!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Worship Greek gods (central paradox of modern paganism)
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:51:02 GMT

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

: Most, (not all!), neolithic agricultural cultures were matriarchal. This may be 

This is wild speculation. There is no evidence to support this assumption.
They may have been matrilineal - that would not surprise me in the least.

: because fertility of the earth was most important to agricultural neoliths, and 

I would expect that most neolithic cultures were primarily hunter, gatherers.
I doubt if they did much in the way of agriculture - kind of hard to do with
just stone, bone and wood tools.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: New Age/Christian Survey -Help! 
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:19:47 GMT

> 2. this may be an attempt to get @dresses for hassling folks (I suspect that 
>the author may be a born-again Christian; see my third reason)

The writer is a Christian, he is active on several Christian lists.  However,
the survey is legit -- he crossposted it to every Christian, New Age,
Parapsychological, and Pagan group he could find on USENET, INTERNET, AND
BITNET.  The Christocentric nature of the questions is, I believe, a function
of his own perceptions.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Saddam Hussein still has a job.  Do you?
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.