From: cosc143u@elroy.uh.edu (91F9774)
Subject: Re: Is belief in Jesus Necessary for a moral society?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 00:09:00 GMT

In article <9204062243.AA17885@CSUFresno.EDU>, davidch@ZIMMER.CSUFRESNO.EDU (David Choweller) writes...
> 
>In article <5APR199221261464@rosie.uh.edu> cosc143u@rosie.uh.edu (91F9774) writes:
>|>SM:My honest opinion is that we need to lay the moral systems into our young before
>|>SM:they begin thinking and then when they are ready for rational thought then we
>|> 
>|>i.e., lie to them about the existence of God, and then later tell them we
>|>aren't sure.  What kind of example would this be setting?
>|> 
>|Whoa... I wasn't saying anything about god, per se.
> 
>Sorry, that was a knee-jerk reaction.
> 
>|I'm saying instill in them "murder is wrong", "stealing is wrong", and other
>|basic moral structures as *axioms*.  It seems to me that religious people do
>|this at least once a week while non religious parents often let it slide until
> 
>I don't know how true this is.  Are there any studies that bear this
>out?  This is an honest question.
> 
I have to admit, there are no studies.  I am saying this from my own 
perspective which is certainly a warped in various ways.  Hmmmm.
I can only speak from my experience and that is a very small sample.

>|it becomes an issue.  I'm speculating that the rise of weak morality we are 
> 
>Why do you think there's weak morality now?  Are you associating
>morality with sexual conservatism?

No.  I don't care about the sexual side.  I'm speaking of the decline in the
value of a person's word and law abiding behavior.  I perceive that people are
less honest than they were 40 years ago.  This perception could be flawed by
the existence of a more open press now than then.  

> 
>|seeing is related to the decline in religion and hence strong moral training 
> 
>During the crusades, and the burning of witches at the stake, religion was
>pretty strong, but we didn't get any moral behaviour then.  I think the
>connection between religion and moral behaviour is tenuous.
> 

This is a good point.  Time and time again, religion has been used to justify
horrible behavior.

>|while young.  Today a lot of parents seem to rely on convincing their children
>|what is right and wrong instead of *instilling* what is right and wrong.
> 
>What's wrong with this?  That way we can instill in children the value of
>independent thinking and questioning, instead of accepting everything
>on faith.  We can make them wary of reliance on absolute principles,
>and more ready to compromise with others when there are differences.
> 

I believe that this position lacks some of the strength inherent in less
thoughtful positions.  If you can discuss the point with them, you may be 
able to convince them through your superior rhetorical skills that they
are mistaken and in this case doing something bad is okay.  Especially if 
there is a strong incentive for them to do the wrong doing.

If their belief that this action is axiomatically wrong then it will be much
harder to lead them astray.  It is an thoughtless, kneejerk reaction but in
my case this particular form of morality has served me from time to time.
I don't help people because it's logical, or because I hope they will help
me but because that is just how I automatically react.   This reaction is
largely a part of the environment which I grew up in.  My mom did her best,
but a lot of my moral values came from long lost religious training, tv shows
and SF books.  Fortunately (from my point of view), those sources were much
more positive than today.

I think that as far as the original subject goes, it is societal pressure
and not the particular religion you are part of that influences you to be 
moral.  If everyone around you is saying, "Good is relative.  Bad is 
relative.  Make up your own mind." you are more likely to choose to be "bad"
than if people are saying, "Good is good.  If you're not good we will 
ostracize you."  
---
Stephen McLeod
The Eternal Student