From: megazone@realsoon.WPI.EDU (MegaZone23)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: IMHO
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:09:13 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: realsoon.wpi.edu

Well, before I start let's just get the IMHO out of the way... All that follows
is a product of my mind and therefore is my opinion....

Brady...

I have been reading your posts (actually I read ALL a.s.h posts...) and I have
been thinking about them and the responses, and this is basically mine.

I do not feel that people on a.s.h are looking to control anyone. Some people
have been saying basically, go away - you're getting annoying, but I don't see
that as trying to control you. Most of the replies have been very level headed,
something I've been glad to see, most I don't consider near to being flames.

Some I do think were a bit childish, ie the go stick your head up your ass 
type replies, but those were in the minority by far.

Now, as to the views. Personally I don't have any problems with you saying 
you think we can make a change, fine, so be it. It is when you say the same 
things, repeatedly, almost like a standard response, to everyone, over and 
over. I've noticed that you don't seem to taylor your response to the 
individual. It gets very tedious and boring to read the same thing again and
again. In this way I have to agree, it is beginning to get annoying. I am well
aquainted with your opinions now, maybe a bit too familiar. Familiarity breeds
contempt....

I don't see others repeating the same thing in the sdame way all the time, the
subjects and arguments tend to be varied. it is when people start arguing their
side that things flatline their responses look alike in reply to yours.

I've also noticed that you will go into detail and start analyzing a post with
the slightest inflamatory tone, like I said I've seen many flame wars and the
current thread is tame, while those which tend to be more level you nearly
skip.

You've read into a name, the nickname Psycho Kitten. Truthfully a sexual 
connotation never appeared to me until you mentioned it. I don't normally think
of the word kitten in a sexual way.

In addition I haven't noticed any overt sexual tones to her posts, or convert
for that matter, as you implied.

You implied that reading ash would drag you down, and as soon as you were 
countered you retconned that by qualifying it to apply only to a few people.
As I said before, ash has never dragged me down, and, in fact, has helped me
up and kept me there.

You pounced on Khare, tried to usher him off the group for his own good. And
who are you, or anyone, to judge what is best for another? If Khare feels he
can stay here, fine, if he can't handle it he can leave. Personally I've 
enjoyed his posts in the past and I'm glad to have him here.

I don't see Lucifuge's solitary post as the group pressuring Khare to stay.
Lucifuge simply mentioned that Khare had gone silent and wondered if he was
still there. That's pressure? Admittedly you have since said that you may have
misinterpreted the situation. But how can such a gross error happen unless you
missed the posts or totally failed to understand them? Personally I can't
picture anyway to feel Lucifuge's post was pressure, and that was it. You're
initial posts made it sound like 20 list members were begging Khare to come 
back.

To me the only thing coming close to control is Brady telling Khare to leave
in order to stay happy.

Your comment about listmembers liking to wallow in depression seems just plain
wrong to me. I've been here since ash started and I don't see people who like
to 'wallow'. And I still don't see how you twisted what you called the
general mood into specific pressure on Khare. It wasn't like we all posted
"If you don't start posting we will hate you" messages to him... You seem to
think all the posts on ash are negativistic, or at least a majority of them.
I would have to disagree. There are posts about random situations. Like 
relationships, school, etc... I find the creative suicide methods immensely
ammusing, hardly negativistic. I happen to have a twisted sense of humor.

You come across, at least to me, as a bit pompous and stuck-up. You are right
we are wrong. Period. If you're not a shiny happy person you need to change.

You said "Working to change impresses me." Well, I for one have made the
choice to think the way I do. I really don't like to be told that I have made
the wrong choice, yes, I admit that. Well, I'd just like to say that since 
I made the decision to change who I am my life has improved. I'm cynical so
the small things to totally blow my day. I know the world sucks, so it doesn't
kill me everytime I find out about an injustice. But I'm far from negativistic,
I have counselled a number of people, both in person and on the nets/phone/etc,
and I feel that I have helped improve many lives. All summer I run the Town of
Rotterdam Helping Hand program which provides services free to the elderly and
disabled. I created the entire system for the program and I really like the 
work I do. But I feel it may be time to move on, working for the town and my
parents company (the sponsor) is getting very annoying. Plus it means I'm away
from all my friends for the summer, not enjoyable.

Back when I was a good little catholic boy and I had this rosy picture of the
world and how good people were at heart, etc. Well, that's bullshit. I used to
get so depressed, upset, and confused when I read about child abuse, beatings,
torture, crimes, murder, the homeless, etc. How could this happen if everyone
was so nice? Answer, they're not.

I agree with Paladin, people are evil at heart. Most animals are. Watch babies
or little kids. Damn mean bastards. They want everything NOW, they'll punch,
claw, and bite. Scream if things don't go their way. Little kids fight all the
time, and emotional torture is the norm. There is always someone to ostracise,
ridicule.

Or watch a couple of kittens. When newborn you get near them and the first 
thing they do is swipe with their claws. It's ingrained.

Being polite and curtious is a learned reaction taught by society. We just
mask our instincts with our intellect. It isn't acceptable to attack someone
physically. 

You keep saying that a dark out look is a choice, but you encourage people to
change. Why? Is it any less valid. There is no way I can have a bright outlook
and still acknowledge all the pain in the world. I sort of take it personally
and I do what I can to improve things. I think I can make a difference, so I
try to. I still think the world sucks and humanity sucks. When things get to
me I feel WWIII would be great. Wipe the slate and start over. Maybe we won't
mess it up next time. However, most of the time that is not my outlook. Little
things add up though, so I try to vent to ash...

Like Tuesday in my english class. We were holding a discussion of the different
treatment of males and females in primary education. (We had just read an essay
from 1973 on the topic...) and an Asian student spoke up with (paraphrase) "Men
and women are different! Men have to be men and women have to be women! There
should be different standards!" That pissed me off, I thought we were making 
some advances. Prejudice gets to me, bad. Well, he had a traditional upbringing
and sexual equality isn't as advanced around the globe. But even in the US 
there is a 'glass ceiling' in many fields above which women rarely are
promoted. Things like that get to me and dim my view of the world. 

But I have a very Discordian outlook so it takes more to drag me down. I think
I have a very realistic worldview, and I am quite happy with it. I may spend 
more time looking at the problems of society, but at least one small thing 
doesn't shatter my model.

You're argument reminds me of the classic exchange:
"You have a drinking problem."
"No I don't."
"Denial is the first symptom."
"But I DON'T have a drinking problem!"
"You can't be helped until you admit it."
Now very frustrated, "OK! I have a drinking problem! Happy?"
"I told you you had a drinking problem..."

now...

"You problem with your outlook."
"No I don't."
"Tsk-tsk. Denial is the first symptom."
"But I don't have a problem. I'm quite satisfied with my outlook."
"Come now, you have to be shiny and happy, you have a problem. Don't deny it."
"Ok I have a problem. Will you stop now?"
"I told you you have a problem."

You keep insisting that the slightest dark worldview is an unhealthy situation
using charged words like 'wallow'. You claim to advocate "expanded options and
horizons", but it seems only if they are bright and sunny. 

You say that those arguing for a dim outlook are afraid of change?
It occurs to me that perhaps you feel threatened, that maybe the world is a
dark place and being happy a lot isn't normal.

Well, those are two extremes. How about this....

Some people naturally see the brightside of things, they have this happy, shiny
outlook. The Cleavers if you will... And some people see the pain and suffering
in the world and can't ignore it, or comiserate. The Bundys if you will..
And some people have a dim, but not dark view. Sort of the gray between the 
balck and white. I'm somewhere in there.

I come to ash for a break from all the shiny happys I deal with all the time,
I need some balance. All dark is not good, nor is all light. So it does annoy
me to check into ash and see such posts.

I conciously chose a bascially negative outlook, in general, and I accept full
responsibility for it. The current controversy is simply depressing me, it is
annoying and angering and it isn't getting it out. This post doesn't help 
etiher in that dept. Until the lights go out in ash I will simply continue to
sink, I have actually considered leaving. For me that is very drastic as I have
been here since the start and I have made several friends here. But I can go
to other groups, and do, for the light views.

Depression dos not readily convert to anger, for me they increase together. If
I get pissed I normally get a bit depressed, and vice versa.

If you want to continue to post the 'happy' view, fine. That is your right.
Perhaps I will have to become more active and darker and begin posting the
truly dark outlook to balance things out. I've been on both sides, and I can
argue the happy points rather well, but seeing them over and over is very 
annoying.

I agree that you seem to be a hypocrite under thoughtful examination. You say
that it is up to each person, yet you claim that being dark is wrong. You make
the point that you will only be impressed by someone who works to change. How
about someone like me who deliberately changed to a darker view? 

I know what I believe in and feel and am committed to it. It just happens that
I have a dark view of the world. I know there is a hope for some change, on the
local level. But the world is mired in traditions, prejudices, and 
beaurocracies which hinder change on a bigger scale. The very fact that a
group would try to pass something like Propsition 9 depresses me a lot.

Let's see, "And I wish them all the courage to try and change and consider new
options." Well, I have. I didn't just get to be the way I am overnight. I 
developed this view over years and years. I feel I am more aware of the pain 
and trouble in the world, that I have a more realistic view of the world. And
it has helped me help others, I can give better advice. Instead of the well
meaning but pointless 'It can only get better' crap. When I hear that when I 
am down I just get more depressed, because I know that is wrong. I've seen it
get worse for people many times. In my experience, those with a rosy perfect
view of the world are slammed harder by life since they have farther to fall.

You have been childish on occaision, as you claim others have been, ie.

"Thanks for that polemical post!
I, for one, will sleep easier tonight knowing that critical
thinking is under your expert care...
Whew!"

Eric took some time to write his post, and I feel he made so good points. Yes,
he was a bit accusatory, but not all that bad. I felt that you should have at
least made an intelligent reply, I know you are capable of it. Yet you made
that childish response and totally ignored it. Yet you will analyze other posts
to death. Why?

I'd like to see you take the time to respond individually, taylor your replies.
Stop making sweeping generalizations. I hate to say this, but I get mail from
a lot of lurkers and they say things like "Who is this Brady asshole?" My
view isn't as negative, but a lot of what I hear is that they are insulted by
you lumping everyone together with statements about most or all but a few, etc.
It annoys me too. We are all individuals and I dislike being thrown into a
group classification. I am me, not a section of ash.

This whole situation is depressing.

###############################################################################
# I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity.  Use your mind, think! #
#Email megazone@wpi.wpi.edu  Moderator, WPI anime FTP site 130.215.24.1 /anime#
###############################################################################