From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: Chief Justice God (WAS: God unfair)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 05:55:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.042433.14280@midway.uchicago.edu> hau4@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.024219.23897@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov21.231315.27514@midway.uchicago.edu> hau4@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>>Judging a 3000 year old text by today's standards just
>>>doesn't make any sense.
>>
>>It would certainly be pointless if there weren't large numbers of
>>people living in the present who use this text as a guide in conducting
>>their lives.
>>
>Read my next sentence.

I did.

>>>The only view that is really challenged by that
>>>argument is the fundamentalist, but that's a lost case anyway.
>>
>>Nonsense.  You'll be hard pressed to find one Xian or Jew who will
>>admit that this God is not a paragon of virtue.  And that skews
>>their whole idea of morality.
>
>Most Jews don't take the Bible litterally. In Europe, virtually no Xian does
>so. In America, it seems that many do, but I see it as a symptom of a more
>general disease, ilitteracy.
                  ^^^^|^^^^^
Is this a joke? ------+

I didn't say that mainstream Xtians or Jews take take the Bible literally,
I said that few will admit that Yahweh, as depicted in the Bible, was a
tyrant.  Instead, they will rationalize like crazy, and that rationalization
does screwy things to their conception of right and wrong.

BTW, I wonder about whether illiteracy is the cause of fundamentalism,
or vice versa.  What with the fundies taking over the school boards and
watering down the curriculums, and teaching their shit in science classes,
I think a good case could be made that illiteracy is a symptom of
fundamentalism.  In any case, there certainly seems to some positive
feedback there, which is quite worrisome.

>BTW, if there were God - and an anthropomorphic one - I see no reason why
>he would have to abide by the same moral standards as humans.

Yes, but you and I both know that the god of the Bible was created by
man and not vice versa, so your point is irrelevant.  Further, it
doesn't seem unlikely to me that people tend to aspire to be like
the gods they have created, which is why, if they must have a god,
it would be better if they had one that was benevolent.

>>>I think this
>>>kind of argument is not even consistent with the way of thinking that ought
>>>to be associated with atheism, i.e. sceptical, rational and with a sense of
>>>history.
>>
>>Perhaps you could be a little more precise.  How does pointing out
>>that Yahweh was a tyrant violate any of your requirements for how
>>atheists ought to think?
>
>Was Solon a tyrrant? Pericles? Augustus? Kharoun-al-Rashid? Charlemagne?
>Suleyman the Magnificent? The Medicis? Frederic the Great? Peter the Great?
>Napoleon? Maybe you'll say yes, but that would mean that you have no sense of
>history. Yahweh was not a tyrrant to contemporary readers.

Tyrants, every one (at least those that I am familiar with).  In fact,
it seems quite peculiar to me that we tend to attach "the Great" to
those who have created the most misery for mankind.  Why is it that
we make heroes out of conquerors, and forget about those sane individuals
who envisioned a better way?  I'm not sure what you mean by my not having
any sense of history.  If none of the people you mentioned were tyrants,
then would you please name somebody that you think *was* a tyrant,
and explain why you think so.

Yahweh may not have been a tyrant to those who worshipped him, but
I'm betting he was to those who were on the receiving end of his
wrath.  I'm not one to hold a grudge, so I certainly don't hold
Jews responsible for what their ancestors did -- after all, those
were wild times, but what does bother me quite a bit is that nobody
ever seems willing to face up to the truth about their past.  Instead,
they fill the world with romanticized bullshit and make heroes out of
mass murderers, thus ensuring that history will continue to repeat itself.
--
Should the human race not be extinguished by a nuclear war, it will degenerate
into a flock of stupid, dumb creatures under the tyranny of dictators who rule
them with the help of machines and electronic computers.  This is no prophecy,
just a nightmare.  -- Max Born.   **** dgraham@bnr.ca    My own opinions. ****