From: johnsd2@lib101.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Macintosh bigots
Reply-To: johnsd2@lib101.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:43:47 GMT

In article @lynx.unm.edu, (Tim Keitt) writes:
>In article <-921p5a@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec312.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
[deletia- tastes great, less filling; keyboard interfaces]
>>>
>>>>I dont consider it a big deal myself.
>>>
>>>I do. It'ts the main reason why I don't use Macs.
>>
>>I am surprised you consider it that important.
>>
>
>No. This is absolutely important!

Oh, I dont think so. "absolutely" is a big word.

> If you develop code (which I 
>suspect you don't) I think you'd consider this important.

I do, and have for years- first on a VAX then (er, now) on a
Mac. Im working on Unix, but Ive yet to get anything interesting
done.

I am familiar with both keyboard only editors (emacs, edt, and
my favorite was EVE) and mousie editors (THINK C and THINK Pascal)

>Simply put the keyboard is much more efficient for editing than 
>any combination mouse/keyboard/etc.

This is not my experience. I find the graphical editor much more
convinient, and I waste less time trying to operate it.

The THINK editors provide keyboard equivalents for most things-
arrow keys w/ modifiers, editing command, etc. Sometimes I even
use them. :) Well some of them. I do not care to go back to selecting
text with a keyboard thank you. Mice are better for that (tho you CAN
do it with the keyboard, even on a Mac, but its awkward and obnoxious)

I do occasionally miss the delete-line command from these editors
tho. This CAN be done with the keyboard on a Mac but its awkward- its
option-left arrow, shift-down arrow, delete. Wheee.

But I dont miss this much.

> There's been a thread 
>recently in some of the Windows lists about vi, the UNIX text 
>editor (I noticed no MAC users inquired about getting a copy 
>for the MAC OS).

Probably because it was a Windows list! :)

There have been people in the Mac newsgroup looking for Mac versions
of vi- they do exist, as it happens.

> Once you learn vi (it takes a couple of weeks 
>-- can be done in a few hours though) there is no faster way
>to edit text (at least in my experience).

I tried vi once, but decided it wasn't worth the frustration. Its
user-interface is a study in awfulness. I dont see what makes
it worth the pain. If you do, feel free to elighten me.

> I've spent the last 
>year or so writing code for Sun workstations, and after getting 
>used to the elegance of the UNIX C-shell, I find it awkward going 
>back to my PC with windows.

I can certainly see that. DOS has a CLI, but not a very good one.

I use bash on Unix myself, don't know how that compares to the
C-shell.

> I still like my PC for word 
>processing. I usually produce compound documents and we don't 
>have software to do that on our Suns. I'm quite happy with WFW 
>(it does have a decent keyboard interface). In general, I 
>despise programs that force me to go to the mouse (I'm not 
>saying that there aren't good code editors for the MAC - I 
>wouldn't know).

If you dont like Mice you wouldn't like the Mac. There's no denying
THAT.

I don't have this problem myself tho. I dont see very many people
having it, for that matter. But there are always some.

>The bigger issue is that the PC interface is being take hostage 
>by a headlong rush to eliminate any effort on the part of the 
>user. The need to please reviewers who spend a few hours or 
>days with a program (at best) is paramount.

> I recently read 
>that despite the fact that millions of computers have been sold 
>in the US, there has been no measurable gain in productivity.

I've heard this too. It may be true, but it makes me wonder how
they measure productivity. (oh no, I hear you scream, he's
going on about measurement again! not that!)

> I 
>think this is because most users don't invest the time to learn 
>their machines and software.

I disagree; I think it is because they DO invest said time; they must,
if they wish to use their computers. This is true for Macs
as well (tho not as much so, Imho) These people DO NOT want to learn
how to use a computer; they want to get something down with it with
the minimal effort. They should not need to "learn their machines and
software". So far the best we can do for them is to make it easier
to learn their machines, and make sure there is as little as possible
to learn. This is what the Mac tries to do, and what Windows tries to
do. (but what vi doesn't try to do :) )

> I see people doing repetitive 
>tasks manually all the time, when if they'd just crack a manual 
>and learn a few programming concepts they'd save tremendous 
>amounts of time.

Programming is HARD for most people. It involves a lot of work
to get anything done, and you do it all blind- you dont know
if its right until you run it. YOU may save time that way,
but most people wouldn't.

Programming is too much to ask of most users; its what UIs-
and applications for that matter- are trying to protect the
user from.
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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