HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sorgatz@avatar.tti.com (sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Real vs Govt Energy costs (Re: Roads and Taxes)
Organization: Citicorp TTI
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:39:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.124928.6302@aisb.ed.ac.uk> jamesh@aisb.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) writes:
>>It is not the removing of subsidies that is at fault, but the laxy
>>incompetent management that had grown dependent on those subsidies.
>
>True, but it could have been dealt with far better. Also nationalisation 
>isn't the only form of public ownership. I suspect that part of the
>problems of these industries was that they were monopolies that were
>molly coddled by government. Now apart from coal, they are private
>monopolies so they have nothing with which to compete, and noone can go
>elsewhere in the case of dissatisfaction.
>
>James
>
 
 I'll amplify that which our esteemed colleauge mentioned; that the people 
in management, not just in the UK, but world wide, have become lazy. They
tend to substitute industrial psychology for good judgement. They are quite
the reason and potientially the cure for such fiascos. The point I'm making 
with all of this is simpler yet: 

 Even if a means of producing energy that was literally "too cheap to meter"
were to be discovered, the economic and political forces in charge of our
mismanagement would soon find a way of taxing it back to a profitable status.

 This applies all the more to those of you living in a socialist-run state,
and the UK in general falls into that category. Coal is one of THE MOST
backward means of producing electric power, it's environmental impact may
actually be worse than oil and nuclear combined! That any situation could
eliminate the existing coal industry would be a welcome breath of fresh air!

( As for the plight of the unemployed coal miners...too bloody bad, eh?! We
in the US have a similar lot of useless rabble: The Autoworkers. $36/hr to
put hubcaps on sedans...what a crock! As for what we can do to provide them
with "profitable labor befitting their station", you've got me!)






 
-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI(sorgatz@soldev.tti.com)                       *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Roads and Taxes (was Re: NEWS: True Costs of )
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 00:16:20 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead) writes:

>If you want fair, be prepared to be fair right down the line on every
>issue, don't select just one topic and sya "Let's be fair here" when that
>is the only topic that you find "fair" benefits you.  Your vehemence
>against cyclists makes me suspect you are one of those who takes a run
>at bikers on the road.

I'll be glad to discuss your "fair share" when you do your research 
sufficiently so that you can talk with some intelligence as to where
highway tax money comes and goes.

>My address is a .gov, but I work for a .com - saic.com to be precise.
>Shows how much you know.  

Yeah, and when I worked under contract to Martin-Marietta Energy Systems
in Oak Ridge, I technically worked for a .com but I'm sure you'd
agree that I really worked for DOE.

Do you use the same degree of intentioanlly deceptive reasoning when you 
advocate your brave new gas taxes?  I suspect so.

You have clearly indicated your attitude here is one of "forget
>facts or logic - I'm against it and that's that".  This is a double
>standard.  

You're danm right I'm against your tax and spend bureauracy.  You and
anyone else who works for the government are part of the problem.
I'll repeat again, if you ever chop that .gov, perhaps cloaked under
a .com, off your address, you'd have a bit of a clue.  You were correct
when you noted I used to work with the government. That was at the end
of the era where government service was still somewhat respectable.  
I finally realized that my sucking off the public tit was against 
everything I stood for and when that happened, I quit.  I know the system 
and I could make a lot of money on the public dole if that's what my 
ethics let me do.  Sucking off the public tit is one thing; breaking vacuum 
to squeal for more is quite another.  Your inept attempt to advocate
the taking of more tax dollars, dollars which would make your and every
other government employee or contractor's job more secure, just flat
didn't fly.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: davros@acme.gen.nz (Steven Groom)
Subject: CAPACITOR STORAGE ???
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 11:43:41 GMT
Organization: ACME BBS - Public Access Usenet, Palmerston North, New Zealand

Hello again.

Well debate seems to have got under way.  I went out and bought a 1000uF 
capacitor @ 400V (80J energy storage - it was cheap o.k.)

now, 1500kWH = 5.4 MJ (32MJ for 5 hours) minus a 17% for leakage.

this capacitor is 120mm X 50mm, volume = 2.36e-4 m^3 (dimensions include a 
little for hookup wires shelving etc)

5.4e6/80 =67500 caps, = 15.9 m^3 housed in a cube, this would be 2.5m 
cubed.

Now, that is for one hour. we need say ..... five of these or one building 
4.57 m cubed. 

Oh dear, it was a nice idea anyway .... the only avenue seems to be if caps 
could be something like 4.05 joules per cc of cap space at 400V, another 
voltage I suppose, but since the telling point is the voltage (E=1/2.C.V^2) 
then I suppose a 10kV cap would be best for E storage and longevity (as I 
think the oil based ones are higher quality??), but how does one chop 10kV 
up thru a XFormer? (minor problem I suppose) 

lets see ... 
32.4MJ at 10000V means you need .65 farad.

Is higher voltage the way to go?

Also, making your house more efficient means you probably will never use 
32.4MJ per day on average, any other ideas?

Steve.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: trh2m@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Thomas Richard Hubbard)
Subject: What are the schools teaching?
Originator: trh2m@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:32:36 GMT

I was reading in the American Nuclear Society Newsletter that a lot of
middle and high school science textbooks have been found to be treating
the subject of nuclear power with some bias.  The article urges parents
and concerned citizens to read the science books in their local school
systems to ensure that students aren't being brainwashed.  If errors are
found, complaints should be filed with the school board immediately.  I
just thought I'd pass that along.

Tom Hubbard

The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of The
University of Virginia or The Department of the Navy.

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: Distributed Power
Organization: Precipitating Pendulums Postal Party Poopers
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 18:27:17 GMT

In article <Jym.25Jan1993.0328@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.185622.5446@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com
>(Dean Alaska) writes:
>> Since, historically, central power generation has worked well,
>> and mass transit hasn't, a conservative view is that we should
>> stick with proven methods.
>
>=\= I don't quite agree with either historical premise.  I
>think the track record of central power generation shows great
>variance.  Ditto for mass transit, which works very well in
>Europe.  (And driving automobiles everywhere is very destructive
>-- hardly a "proven method.")

I'm not entirely sure what it means to say that "mass transit works
[ very ] well in Europe". What can be said is that many more people
use it, many more people rely on it, less people drive, there are less
cars per capita.

I don't know enough about economic analysis to know if its possible to
figure out which is the cart and which is the horse in this situation,
or even to what extent these observations are related.

-- paul




-- 
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean;    | Militant Agnostic
distorted rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than| I Don't Know
articulated; both-and rather than either-or; the difficult  |   and You Don't
unity of inclusion rather than the easy unity of exclusion. |   Know Either
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: aa139@Freenet.carleton.ca (Mike Lynch)
Subject: Re: N-Plants in Eastern Europe
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:49:46 GMT


I have sat on a number of delegations/working groups dealing with Eastern
European countries dealing with energy in general and in some cases 
electricity/nuclear in particular.  The situation in many of these countries
from a nuclear power perspective is indeed serious.  Essentially, the type
of safety regime we enjoy in the West was not there in the East European countries. As I am sure many of the readers of this conference are aware, there are 
many countries trying to help out. This help is being formalized through what
is known as the Energy Charter.

A major dilemma is the problem of being able to ensure adequate power supplies
by keeping some of the nuclear stations operating until they are closed down 
and other options are delivered. By keeping these stations operating, the fear 
is that the officials involved will claim that they still need a couple more years of operation. In other words, the West may be involved in maintaining unsafe
reactors in operation.

One project involved a study of electricity options for a specific country.
The government wanted to enact legislation that would take into account
environmental considerations and involve public consultations.  It was a
most interesting exercise as the country involved had virtually no citizen
groups to involve.  While the citizens are becoming more involved, they are 
not yet quite this organized.  Canada was approached to help because of
the degree to which we consult (over consult). 

How things evolve in Eastern Europe will be most interesting. It is a shame
that some of these citizens cannot hook up to discussion groups such as this
one.  Is there anything we can do, perhaps donate computers, modems, etc.

--
From: denis@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Denis Schiozer)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: HELP - Energy
Date: 24 Jan 1993 01:17:29 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

I need to know the energy sources(in %) used to generate electricity
in California. 
Does anybody can help me with that?
Thank you very much!

My e-mail is : denis@pangea.stanford.edu


Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Distrubted Power (was Re: NEWS: True Costs ...)
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:26:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.185622.5446@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>
>Capital costs for distributed energy may be more but other costs may
>ameliorate since fewer centralized plants will be needed.  Some will
>still be needed for high intensity industrial uses, but they will be
>more appropriately responsible for this cost.  It will
>also remove a distortion in the marketplace in which decisions about
>consumption are divorced from those about production.  There will be
>greater _market_ pressure to use efficienct technologies if you then
>get to pay less for your energy collection systems.

Dean, if capital costs for distributed systems are more than for
central systems, then the fact that you need fewer central systems
doesn't save you any money since you just replaced them with more
expensive systems.

Market pressure will follow Gresham's Law like it usually does.
Consumers opt for the lowest up front costs rather than for the
lowest lifetime costs. Thus the most efficient systems will be
shunned since they usually have the highest up front costs.
There's always a market for quality, but it's also a minority
market.

Gary

-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: NEWS: True Costs of Commercial Nuclear Power -- The Economic Failure
Keywords: energy environment press
Date: 27 Jan 93 14:28:48 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1993Jan27.023609.3052@netcom.com> mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>
>I attacked GreenPest for presuming to dictate and lecture to the
>chemical industry on what compounds they may be permitted to use,
>while they are so ignorant as to be unaware that table salt is a
>chlorine compound.  Those who presume to dictate policy really

But you have only imaginary grounds for concluding that they don't know
this commonplace fact. Most of the citicism of GP on this net takes the
form of "I heard this, I suppose that, and I conclude that GP is wrong".

>ought to have some conception of what they're blithering about.

You still owe me an apology on nukes. Got to the library yet?

>I'll now go back to ignoring you.
>

Thanks.

-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: ledwards@leland.Stanford.EDU (Laurence James Edwards)
Subject: Re: Roads and Taxes (was Re: NEWS: True Costs of )
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 02:03:10 GMT

In article <1jvcnfINN8em@werple.apana.org.au>, speednut@werple.apana.org.au (Mark Jose) writes:
|> [...]
|> The big argument FOR petrol/gas taxes over here was to (apart from
|> ecological reasons etc) try to get back some of the money spent on the
|> maintenance of the roads. The trouble with charging a tax by the
|> litre/gallon is that it doesn't correlate to the size of a vehicle. I
|> can drive a heavily laden utility doing untold damage to the edges of
|> roads and yet get similar km/l [mpg] results as a "hotted-up" car. I
|> pay the same amount of tax, yet do more damage.
|>  
|> Even though it may be seen as some type of panacea for halting the
|> production of greenhouse gases, paying for roads, et al, it definitely
|> isn't.

yes, I would think the one sure way to stop people from driving cars is to
take all the gas tax money and pump it into rail transit infrastructure,
whilst letting the roads go completely to hell 8-)

Larry Edwards
Xref: sparky sci.energy:7202 misc.rural:2888
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,misc.rural
Subject: Re: On Sight Low Volume Alcohol Production
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:54:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1993Jan25.005453.29383
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.

camelsho@gemini.ksu.ksu.edu (   James A Seymour) writes:

>I'm looking for some good sources on/for farm alcohol production
>primarily for agricultural uses.  Also wanted is a treatment
>of the conversion of engines to this fuel.

Depends on the engine, conversion is in most cases pretty
easy. More people are getting into it. When I was going to
do it back in about 1980. Carb conversion kits (for what
I had) were hard to find.

>Also, I'm sure that pointers to any relavant regulatioins
>would be necessary..

Call your local ATF.

>Any and all info is welcome, from the economics side to 
>mechanics.

For me the material would have cost about $500, I had a
275 gal oil tank, and I had at the time a 'free' supply of
wood. I still (no pun inteneded) have the remains of the
column, I turned it into a light standard.

Getting the 'food stock' is what stopped me. My supply went
out of business.


Mother's Earth News (old) did an article and also sold
plans. You might see if the new owners/publishers still
carry them.

-pete
Pete Lancashire
petel@sequent.com
Xref: sparky sci.energy:7176 talk.environment:5677
From: jamesh@aifh.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
Subject: Re: FEATURE: "Energy Without Oil" Executive Summary
Keywords: energy environment oil press
Date: 23 Jan 93 17:35:41 GMT
Reply-To: jamesh@aifh.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Organization: Dept of AI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <90524@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark Wilson) writes:
# In <1993Jan21.105316.12424@aisb.ed.ac.uk> jamesh@aisb.ed.ac.uk (James
Hammerton) writes:
# 
# |In the global warming report, there is documented two cars; the first
# |from volvo does 71mpg, the second 92 mpg from peugeot. Also I remember
# |reading about an interesting design in the press a year or so back where
# |there was a combined diesel electric engine. While the car was running
# |at steady speeds the electric engine did most of the work. During
# |braking the battery was charged, whilst accelerating the diesel comes
# |into play. The mpg rating claimed was around 100mpg, I think it was
# |Volkswagen that made the car. 
# 
# Are these real world cars, or cars that were designed to maximize mileage
# at the expense of everything else.

At the moment I don't have the details with me, I'll do a second reply to
this which will give them(The details are in the Greenpeace Global Warming
report).However I would like to point out that, even if it is the case that
they maximised mileage at the expense of other qualities, the fact that such
a high mpg is possible suggests that the 30 odd mpg we get now on average
could be significantly increased without doing so.

James



-- 
*  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     *
*  Email: jamesh@uk.ac.ed.aisb   *  mini-metro,then ML is the concept  *
*                                *  car where steering is done         *
*                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Definition of "Short Trip"
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:49:45 GMT

In article <Jym.24Jan1993.1807@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>>> Some how the concept of SHORT TRIPS has been disregarded
>>> or possibly there is a definition of short trip that I am
>>> not familiar with.
>> Short trip: any trip that can be completed on one tank of
>> gas or less. 
>
>=o= Well, that may be "a definition," but it's certainly not
>a useful one.  Unless there's a definition of "useful" that
>I am not familiar with.
>
>=o= Given that most auto trips are on the order of 6 miles
>or less, perhaps one could use "6 miles or less" as a useful
>definition of "short trip."
>    <_Jym_>


One *could* say that if one accepted as given that most auto
trips are of the order of 6 miles. But since that is incorrect,
the statement would be incorrect. The average miles driven per
auto per year in the US is roughly 12,000. That leads to an average 
daily travel of about 33 miles. As an example, I drive about 60 miles
a day in two 30 mile trips. I'm above the national average and
there are those below the average, but 6 miles is *way* below
the average.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Sources for Fuel Cells (o
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:47:00 GMT
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193

BU>What about the electrolysis of the hydrogen/oxygen in the first place? Who
BU>knows the best techniques of gathering the actual gases? Can a fuel cell
BU>operate in reverse?

A nickel-metal- hydride battery could be considered such a device.

BU>Does this qualify as a "zero emission" device? :+)

Yes!

BU>Is there a site that sources designs for energy storage/conversion
BU>devices?

If you find one, let us know.

Howard Smith

American Hydrogen Association BBS (415)494-3116
1200-14,400 baud (V.32bis V.42bis)  8N1  24 hrs
Hydrogen Energy -  Prosperity without Pollution

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!
                                                                                                                             
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: constant@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Tino)
Subject: Re: Energy Strategy and Global Warming
Keywords: energy efficiency CO2 abatement cost effective
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 23:05:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.130701.14221@aisb.ed.ac.uk> jamesh@aisb.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) writes:
>Yet, in going from a fuel to electricity,
>there is always a considerable amount of waste heat produced. This can
>be used profitably to heat buildings. This is known as cogeneration(or 
>combined heat and power;'CHP'). CHP stations that provide electricity for
>a grid, and heat for houses in the local area, can achieve efficiencies
>of 70% or more(what I mean is that 'useful energy' in the form of useful
>heat or electricity, is 70% of the energy avialable in the original
>fuel)[10]. 

But Greenpeace grossly condradicts itself on this issue.

Greenpeace says:
1. CHP can double (or more) the efficiency by sending waste heat to nearby
   city buildings (and it is a LOT of waste heat, I might add).

2. You're not going to build a nuke/coal plant in my backyard!


Also, can you imagine if a nuke plant was CHP?

Greenpeace: "You mean that steam passed through a steam genenerator that
was in a RADIOACTIVE NUCLEAR POWER PLANT! Shut it down! Shut it down!"

Get real. You can't have it both ways.

Tino
-- 
     "Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders..." - J.D.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Purdue University School of Nuclear Engineering
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: HELP - Energy
Date: 28 Jan 93 00:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 

To: denis@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Denis Schiozer)

DS>I need to know the energy sources(in %) used to generate electricity
DS>in California.
DS>Does anybody can help me with that?
DS>Thank you very much!

The Palo Alto phone book list the

State of California Energy Commission
1516 9th, Sacramento, CA
General Information (916)654-4287
Public Advisor      (800)822-6228

Howard Smith

American Hydrogen Association BBS (415)494-3116
1200-14,400 baud (V.32bis V.42bis)  8N1  24 hrs
Hydrogen Energy -  Prosperity without Pollution

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E--
                                           
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: sci.energy