From: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Reply-To: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:47:28 GMT

In article 92Aug13115336@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu, mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:
>   > shaw@whopper.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw) writes:
>
>   Another variation on this is to _become_ part of the majority.  However,
>   historically, this path has only been taken by immigrants who happen to
>   have the same skin color as the majority -- i.e. Irish, Italians, Eastern
>   Europeans, and to an extent, Jews.  Blacks and Hispanics have not succeeded
>   with this strategy, because it's difficult to become part of a group when
>   you are easily discernable visually.
>
>I don't think you have a very good grasp of how thorough the bias
>against non-WASPs was in this country.  It's true that now the
>divisions are "whites" vs. "blacks", "asians", "hispanics", etc.; but
>earlier this century or last century, the idea of a WASP being somehow
>indistinguishable from an Irish or Italian person would have been
>laughable.
>
>So "racial" attitudes can and do change over time.  My (admittedly
>anecdotal) impression is that the way Irish, Italians, and company
>became "white" is similar to an ongoing process that is gradually
>scooping Asians into the "non-African" race.  The one thing that seems
>to stay constant in American perspectives on race is that African
>Americans are at the bottom (American Indians are below the bottom,
>not even considered most of the time).
>

The problem with the Irish example is that they will, evitably lose themselves 
in the white society.  They don't have dark skin, kinky hair, slanted eyes, etc.
The visual cues dominate people's perceptions, and the irish does not stand out
as the asians do.  As for Italians, they are indeed darker than the average 
caucasian, but they too can blend in much more easily than asians or african
americans.  Even if someone becomes culturally grounded in the america,
his/her appearance still elicit enough racially motivated reactions that they
can not really be considered integrated into the white society.

>I think your subsequent analysis of the experience of Jews is rather
>dubious, and verges on being just a collection of stereotypes.  It
>seems to me that American Jewish organizations are not as coherent as
>you describe, and are in fact rather worried that one consequence of
>acceptance by white America will be the complete assimilation of Jews
>by intermarriage and the loss of a distinctively Jewish culture.
>
>--Mark Day
>
>mday@lcs.mit.edu

I think the Jewish experience is pertinent to the discussion, the major 
difference here is that the Jewish community has integrated their cultural 
heritage so intrinsically with their religious heritage whereas most asians
share nothing in common except for a geographical region and their minority status
here in the US.  Other than that common goal of attaining integration into
the power structure on America, there is no other reason to bind all these
disparate groups together.  What Andy said may be stereotypical, but you can
not ignore the fact that the Jewish voice is at least heard and heeded much more
often than the asian conglomeration's voice.  Besides, the lessons of persecution
and the holocaust also help the Jewish people stay together. Even though 
their cultural and religious beliefs may erode over time here in America, 
the lessons from the past can not be ignored by anyone with the slightest
trace of Jewish ancestry, and that serves as the glue for a community.
asians I mean that Japanese, Chinese, Koreans.   

****************************************************************************
*Peter Wung				Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory		Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering		    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology				    	   *        *Atlanta, Georgia							   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...						   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy.  		   *
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