HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: trivia
Keywords: colo(u)rs
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:26:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas

rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel) replies:

>A study in SCARLET
>the RED headed league
>the five ORANGE pips
>the adventure of the BLUE carbuncle
>the adventure of the BERYL coronet
>the adventure of the COPPER beeches
>SILVER blaze
>the YELLOW face
>the adventure of BLACK peter
>the adventure of the GOLDEN pince-nez
>the adventure of the RED circle
>the adventure of the retired COLOURMAN

Very good - although I think beryl is a type of gem that can
come in several colors.   Isn't there a "Blanched Soldier"
story, if I'm not confusing it with something else?   The
only other (unfair) one I can think of is the Speckled Band,
although speckles don't have to be colored.

I suppose there has to be at least one rock group called
The Speckled Band somewhere...


Derek Wills 
Department of Astronomy, University of Texas, 
Austin TX 78712.  (512-471-1392)
oo7@astro.as.utexas.edu 
oo7@emx.utexas.edu
From: oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: bicycle tracks
Keywords: Priory Manor
Date: 26 Dec 92 01:53:52 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas

In the Priory Manor story, Holmes claims to be able to deduce 
the direction in which a bicyclist was travelling by noting 
that the track of the heavier rear wheel has passed over that 
produced by the lighter front tyre.  Can someone explain the
logic here?

Perhaps I'm just being stupid - it has been known.....


Derek Wills 
Department of Astronomy, University of Texas, 
Austin TX 78712.  (512-471-1392)
oo7@astro.as.utexas.edu 
oo7@emx.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: Holmes and others
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:17:33 GMT

HOLMES AND WATSON

Rather than say that Watson is the "normal" half of the 
team, I prefer to view him as the "feeling" partner.  It
is sort of like the difference between the analytical 
and intuitive sides of the brain.  Watson humanizes 
Holmes' intellect.  Together the two make one whole 
(literary) person.

Holmes is, of course, my favorite literary detective.  
Peter Whimsey comes in second.  Although he is no great
detective, Inspector Purbright of Flaxboro must rank up
there for sheer reading pleasure, though it's the crooks
who are the real interest in the Flaxboro stories.  And
how about a vote for Philip Marlow?

~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
From: credmond@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Archive?
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:41:02 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

Is anybody archiving this newsgroup?  

I don't necessarily mean archiving it in a way that permits
FTP at present, but archiving it for the historical record?

CAR
From: oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: colo(u)rs
Keywords: nyah nyah
Date: 29 Dec 92 20:41:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas

trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) complains:

>>I'm not at all sure if "the Five Orange Pips" counts in this category at all,
>>since the pips are not orange in color, but merely the seeds of the fruit of
>>the same name. Although the name is a common name for a color, it actually 
>>doesn't refer to the color at all.  And orange pips are whitish-grey.

Well, I did say something like "titles containing colo(u)rs", but yes,
I'd put it in the 'slightly unfair' category, along with The Retired
Colourman (or Colorperson for modern readers).

Happy New Sherlockian Year to all,


Derek Wills 
Department of Astronomy, University of Texas, 
Austin TX 78712.  (512-471-1392)
oo7@astro.as.utexas.edu 
oo7@emx.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Holmes and others
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:42:04 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Dec20.084459.26908@netcom.com> ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams) writes:

>Of the four, only Wimsey was modest and easily likeable. I'm sure Holmes
>would have thought Sam Spade a clod. I can't imagine what he would have
>thought of Columbo or Jessica Fletcher.

I would be hard pressed to compare Holmes and Columbo because they
operate in totally different ways.  Holmes made brilliant logical
deductions based on facts.  Columbo does not really operate on facts 
at all.  He somehow intuitively knows who the guilty party is, then
goes about seeking evidence to prove it.  His confidence in that
knowledge is never shaken, even when all available facts point to
some other conclusion.   

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: trivia
Keywords: colo(u)rs
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:40:08 GMT



I'm not at all sure if "the Five Orange Pips" counts in this category at all,
since the pips are not orange in color, but merely the seeds of the fruit of
the same name. Although the name is a common name for a color, it actually 
doesn't refer to the color at all.  And orange pips are whitish-grey.

Suze

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: bicycle tracks
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 14:14:18 GMT
Keywords: Priory Manor

In article <85817@ut-emx.uucp> oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills) writes:
> In the Priory Manor story, Holmes claims to be able to deduce 
> the direction in which a bicyclist was travelling by noting 
> that the track of the heavier rear wheel has passed over that 
> produced by the lighter front tyre.  Can someone explain the
> logic here?

As Baring-Gould discusses it in his ANNOTATED SHERLOCK HOLMES (back in
print finally, and available at Price Club for under $20!), this makes
no sense.  If the tyres had a pattern which was not "symmetrical"
front-to-back, you could determine the direction.  Also, someone has
said that the rear tyre would make deeper depressions going uphill than
down, and that might be used.

The explanation Baring-Gould gives is that Holmes used these other
clues but didn't want to explain it all.  I find this unlikely--Holmes
*loved* to explain things, and was always precise.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"God does not play dice with the universe."  --Albert Einstein
"Albert, stop telling God what to do."  --Niels Bohr
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: mfh@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (mitchell.hansinger)
Subject: Sherlock Holmes Scion in Central New Jersey
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: nj
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:45:43 GMT


The person who runs the Sherlock Holmes Scion group for central New Jersey is:

Robert S. Katz
11 Van Beuren Rd
Morristown, NJ 07960

The meetings include a catered, buffet style dinner with the members discussing
one or two selected stories afterward.


-Mitchel
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Society in MN ?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 00:21:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.020454.28523@news2.cis.umn.edu> kencham@pico.cs.umn.edu (Deepak Kenchammana-Hosekote) writes:
>Ho,
>
>Is there a society in the Minneapolis-St.Paul area ? Anyone can give me
>pointers in that direction.
>
	Here's one:  as of September 1991, the Baker Street Journal was still
receiving periodic postings of activity from "The Norwegian Explorers" of
Minneapolis.  The contact at that time was:
	Pj Doyle (sic)
	466 Wilson Library
	University of Minnesota
	Minneapolis, MN  55455
	At that time the scion's roster included 200 members, and 70 attended
the 1990 annual meeting.  That's a fairly impressive turnout; The Noble 
Bachelors here in St. Louis rarely field more than 30 at a meeting.
The_Doge
ObQuote:	"A long shot, Watson; a very long shot!"
				- Silver Blaze



Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: taravade@shark.ecn.purdue.edu (Kunal N Taravade)
Subject: Re: Dr. Watson's first name, anyone?
Keywords: Holmes, Watson
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:11:46 GMT

Thanks to all who responded to this question.

-Kunal
From: driver8@night.Corp.Sun.COM (Albert Handa)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Holmes and others
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:47:51 GMT
Reply-To: driver8@night.Corp.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: night.corp.sun.com

Columbo is actually, at least at one time, my favorite after Holmes.  I agree with one
reader that his method was knowing who did it and then persistently tracking down the
clues.  I think also an attractive element was that Columbo stories were often a "game"
between him and the suspect, who was almost always an egotist who thought he or she
was clever or too good to catch.  

Sam Spade was good, too.  Not like Holmes at all, but an important aspect of whether
a detective is liked (reading wise)  is just as much atmosphere.  I like the Victorian age
and just prior, amongst my interests, and the Holmes stories were perfect.  Obviously,
any good writer can make a detective brilliant.  I think it's how the case unfolds and the
feel.  Doyle was great in that (as his historical novels show).

Al
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: credmond@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond)
Subject: Re: Holmes and others
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:31:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.084459.26908@netcom.com> ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams) writes:

>Holmes is *beyond any doubt* the greatest detective who ever lived. On
>the other hand, I think he would have enjoyed the company of Hercule
>Poirot, Lord Peter Wimsey, and Nero Wolfe, but he would have undoubtedly
>seen character flaws in all three. As Holmes' son, of course, Nero
>Wolfe is probably the closest to him.
>
>Of the four, only Wimsey was modest and easily likeable. I'm sure Holmes
>would have thought Sam Spade a clod. I can't imagine what he would have
>thought of Columbo or Jessica Fletcher.

Or Philo Vance?  The mind boggles -- the mighty egos collide . . .
But are you trying to suggest that Holmes had no "character flaws"
comparable to those of Poirot, Wolfe and anyone else we might name?
On the contrary!  I suggest that (in spite of caricatures and
simplifications that make Holmes into a cartoon superhero) much 
of his appeal comes from his very evident, if extraordinary, humanity.

And if we switch from Holmes as real-life detective to Holmes as
literary character, we can observe -- we have frequently observed --
that he is the original of many conventions we now take for granted.
The Detective must have a dumb companion (Watson, Archie), an artistic
interest (violin, orchids), and so on, even a forgiveable addiction
(cocaine for Holmes, beer for Wolfe, and pizza for the Ninja Turtles)!

CAR

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: credmond@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond)
Subject: Wisconsin
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 21:01:17 GMT

Somebody asked me for the address of a Sherlockian society
in Wisconsin.  I have a couple of possible contacts for you,
but my mail to you bounced.  Please write again.
  CAR
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: bicycle tracks
Date: 27 Dec 92 02:13:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

>In article <85817@ut-emx.uucp> oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills) writes:
>> In the Priory Manor story, Holmes claims to be able to deduce 
>> the direction in which a bicyclist was travelling by noting 
>> that the track of the heavier rear wheel has passed over that 
>> produced by the lighter front tyre.  Can someone explain the
>> logic here?

	I speculate:

		Weight on/in a vehicle is not (necessarily) evenly distributed.
	One end may be heavier than the other.  Without actually a weighing a
	person pn a bicycle, it appears that more weight is on the rear than
	on the front.  (anyone having, time, a bicycle (preferably Victorian ...
	8)>>), a person  and a set of scales is invited to experiment and
	report.)

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
40 Old Bolton Rd		|I am the NRA.
Stow, Mass, USA	
01775				pierson@msd27.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
From: oo7@ut-emx.uucp (Derek Wills)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: bicycle tracks
Keywords: thanks
Date: 26 Dec 92 23:27:23 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas


  Thanks to one poster and one e-mailer for assuring me that
I am not the first person to note this problem.  I obviously
need to get hold of the Annotated S.H. rather than bothering
people here with such things....


Derek Wills 
Department of Astronomy, University of Texas, 
Austin TX 78712.  (512-471-1392)
oo7@astro.as.utexas.edu 
oo7@emx.utexas.edu
From: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re:  Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:34:16 GMT
Reply-To: pvs9@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Praktikum Verteilte Systeme)
Organization: TU Braunschweig, Informatik (Bueltenweg), Germany

On the number of films :

THREE.  The Lord of the Rings is too long for one, but two films would mean
splitting The Two Towers in the middle :  a bad move.  Furthermore, each of 
the three volumes should give enough stuff for a 2-hour movie.

On the idea of an 'actor-toon' like 'Roger Rabbitt' :

ARE YOU KIDDING ???

May Elbereth protect you... Joerg Rhiemeier.
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 3 Jan 93 17:20:19 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

Various people are on both sides of this question:

> Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
> one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
> but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
> of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
> go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
> the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.

I'm sorry to come into the conversation late, but I don't understand how
Olorin could be anybody <other> than Gandalf, given Gandalf's own
recollection that he was once known as Olorin, and that Olorin is known
to have been one of the Istari.  Is the argument that when resurrected as
Gandalf the White he was a different person?  That seems patently bogus,
or at least grossly unsupported.  If not, how can there be any doubt about
this identification?

-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	Mersday, 12 Afteryule S.R. 1993, 17:20
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: New Story: Mushroom Thief
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 23:10:01 GMT

In article <C09Ds1.J2v@umassd.edu> s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU writes:
>	In my personal opinion the mushroom thief story belongs in
>alt.sex.stories or other such stomping grounds for ths kind of garbled filth.
>Tolkien didn't create a world of bestialist and perverted hobbits.

True. I think a different kind of garbled filth would be appropriate;
maybe a story about Gimli boffing Galadriel in the Undying Lands (her
husband's a world away), or maybe Bilbo doing Frodo. (Hey, we *all*
knew about that one, right?)
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Death of a Maia
Date: 3 Jan 1993 19:26:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) says:

>Just to complicate the whole "What happens to Maia on death" question,
>I always thought that Sauron's original physical form was killed in
>the fall of Numenor.  He seems to have gotten himself another physical
>form (though, from all accounts, a rather hideous one lacking in the
>shape-change powers that he had originally had).
>
In TLOTR there are three Maiar that "die".  Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.
In the first two cases there is a cloud that appears and then disperses.
When Saruman is killed on the doorstep of Bag End the cloud "looks" to the
west and is dispersed by a suddenly appearing wind.

-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:33:45 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1h55rsINNbj4@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
|> 
|> I don't know.  I just object to ICE adding noise to the clear flow of
|> historical research on Middle Earth.  People will think that all of ICE's
|> MERP work is factual, when it isn't.  Tell me, anyone with the ICE stuff--
|> does ICE back up their work with citations from books?  *or* do they state
|> that something `is possible' or `is speculated' when they do NOT have actual
|> supporting data?  That would make me feel a little better...

Most (all?) of their stuff has disclaimers on it along the lines of, "We
used what was there and did our best to fill in with new stuff that has
the same flavor as the old".

Overall they do a good job but as with anything with multiple authors some
is really good, some ok, and some trash.  The only overall failings are in
them using their own game system whose magic system is totally wrong as
far as ME goes and in trying to assign everything in ME a number (like
showing Gandalf and Sauron in game terms).

They do not differentiate within each work as to what parts are "gospel"
:-) and what parts they made up.  As a gamer I could care less about that
and it would needlessly clutter the material.  They often pick up on things
mentioned only in passing in the LotR and others and expand them into
quite interesting material.

The end of each usually contains an extensive Tolkien and secondary source
(e.g., Foster's a Guide to Middle Earth) bibliography of material that was
used.

To the Tolkien purists:  LIGHTEN UP!  The MERP material probably attracts
droves of new readers who might otherwise not be interested.  When I reffed
MERP the two "non-informed" players both read LotR and one read everything
by the Tolkiens he could find.

To the MERP gamers:  Don't quote MERP material as gospel.  Either that or
get some asbestos underwear.  :-)
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: bvickers@valentine.ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers)
Subject: Tolkien Calendars
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 24 Dec 92 23:40:42 GMT


Where is everyone getting the 1993 Tolkien calendars?  I can't find
them in any local bookstores (B. Dalton, Waldenbooks, Crown).

Help appreciated,


--
Brett J. Vickers
bvickers@ics.uci.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ott@ansoft.com (nancy ott)
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Organization: Ansoft Corp. Pittsburgh
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:03:19 GMT

In article <1h1up2INN6uh@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>Madonna Ciccone as Galadriel. (She could play out all her royal ambitions.
>She could perfectly be a queen-like, untouchable beauty.)


You have *got* to be joking.


>--
>Barbara Maren Winkler                   winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de
>=======================================================================


-- 
-nancy

The four stages of boredom:
	1. Sitting
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Middle-Earth related software ?
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:12:34 GMT
Distribution: na,uk,oz,nz
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC

Is there a list of Middle-Earth related software around ?
If not, this would be a good candidate for the FAQ.

  I know that the MIT X11 distribution used to include some bitmaps of
various Middle Earth scenes (I expect X11 still does).  Surely someone
has some GIF files that are of Middle Earth scenes.  Please post their
whereabouts if you know of any.

  There has been much mention of the tengwar fonts available from the
UK for TeX.  Are there similar packages for troff/groff or for X11 ??

  I'd be interested in a software program that displayed the Shire
Reckoning calendar and kept track of which day is "today" as the year
passed, possibly annotated with key 3rd Age historical events.

  There are other things which might be neat.  If you know of any,
please post about them.

Ran
atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil
From: sfd@soda.berkeley.edu (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 23 Dec 1992 01:28:29 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1h1up2INN6uh@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) writes:
)Madonna Ciccone as Galadriel. (She could play out all her royal ambitions.
)She could perfectly be a queen-like, untouchable beauty.)

Please.  Galadriel != hosebag.
-- 
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   sfd@neuromancer.metaphor.com                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: suwandi@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Suwandi)
Subject: Re: The movie...
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:56:33 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>In article <1992Dec17.032025.15765@selway.umt.edu> sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave) writes:
>>Who would you like to see direct a LoTR movie?


>Kenneth Brannagh.
>Terry Gilliam.

>>

It'll be cool if Disney is to do a LoTR movie.. With the musical elves, the
special effects for the Balrog.. hmm.. Maybe if we are persistent enough, 
Disney may do it! Then again, I might be dreaming.. :)
-- 
    ********************** KEEP CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS *********************
      Julian Suwandi        |  Quotes / Unquote of the week
         643-0827           |      Insanity is hereditary... 
      suwandi@sfu.ca        |      You get it from your kids.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:46:37 GMT

solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>To my mind, the bigger problem is the implication that some Ents
>fought for Sauron.  >-- >Andrew Solovay    

Why is this a problem?  Fangorn himself said that there were places where
the trees had bad hearts (were evil), like in the Old Forest, and I don't
think Old Man Willow would've been fighting for Elendil in the Last Alliance.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien