HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: tabard (was: kids in SCA
Date: 22 Aug 92 05:43:52 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood) writes:

> In article <F45kPB4w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
> >
> >wasn't that the point of dressing your lackeys in your arms back when?  why
> >have the nippers wear a surcoat of the arms of the person they represent whi
> >they are representing them?  from what i have read, that is period...  then
> >would KNOW that little jenny represents Duke Fred of the Howling Winds, and
> >people might step more smartly...  B)
>
> A proxy wears a tabard, which is not a surcote of the usual form.  A tabard
> is a four-lobed poncho: two big lobes, front and back; two little lobes,
> covering the upper arms; each of the four lobes bears the device of the
> person represented.
>

well, that seems to be a solution to the problem of people refusing to tak
nippers seriously, AND that of what to do with them: anyone who si sufficiently
important to need runners should make opr have made a bunch of tabards, and rig
out any useful waifs they can collar...  makes the kids useful, and also shows
which ones are supposed to be being useful...

                                            -Walburga
                                             who could use a couple of smallfry
                                             for herb sorting, tea making,
                                             basket holding, etc.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
      No visible means of support          Silence \      / Action
      and you have not seen nothing yet.      =     \    /    =
      Everything's come together.           Death    \  /    Life
                                                      \/
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)
Subject: Medieval practices at events (was Re: Arrows, was Authenticity, ...)
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:43:46 GMT

Peregrin Payne noted, quoting Graydon and T. Archer:

| Graydon>I honestly don't see any reason to try to put archery 
| Graydon>on the tourney field;
| T. Archer> Because it's fun.
|
| Graydon>we can have perfectly period archery contents, if we want to.  
| Graydon>We can have awful close to period (they'd think we were sissies, 
| Graydon>that's all) tournament foot melees if we want to.  Why ever do 
| Graydon>we want to add something that acts sorta like javelin fire, but 
| Graydon>shorter ranged, and from bows?  (yes, I know it's fun, but 
| Graydon>what's it *for*?)
|T. Archer> It's for *FUN*!
|
|
| I think soccer is fun, too. Why don't I bring my cleats to the
| next event and set up a couple goals?  It will be fun.
| [...]
| An SCA event, if we are to believe the Corpora and related 
| printed matter of the Society, is a place for medieval recreation.  
| Non-medieval pursuits, such as soccer or computer games, are not 
| appropriate for an SCA event.  As Graydon pointed out, shooing gold 
| tubes is not a medieval recreation.

I originally decided to avoid responding to T.Archer's comment, as someone
else would do so, and would do so in a better fashion.

Peregrine did.

Fun is fine. But in the SCA, fun, BASED ON SOME MEDIEVAL MODEL, not fun 
generated from whole cloth, 'just because it's fun'.

We hold archery tournaments, just as we hold rattan tournaments. Neither is
an exact copy of period tournaments, but both make some attempts at doing 
so. Without those attempts, all we're doing is playing fantasy games*, which
is not the reason for the SCA.

There is a time and a place for (almost) everything. Think about the
appropriateness of an activity before dropping it into an existing
structure.

Keradwc
  (*who also plays fantasy games, but not in the SCA...)

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Authenticity, Atmosphere & SCA
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:19:38 GMT

In article <714369656.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) writes:
>
> RC>  But still, it doesn't match with the idiocy of people taking
> RC> pictures of a _fire_ with flashes _on_.
>
>And from too far away for a flash to be useful for *anything*.

Well . . .  I agree with the basic point--most people using cameras
that have an outoflash mode, with an imbedded flash don't know how far
it's good, and the flash is very small, but . . .

I discovered about 20 years ago that the combination of a 5B flashbulb
and Ansco 500 slide film (ASA 500) was just about right for flash at
300 feet.  Given some of the faster emulsions available now, and some
of the flashes one can buy, it would be fairly easy to beat that
range.

(It's not, you understand, that I have problems with the statement
about the distance being too far, but rather, it being given in such
absolute terms.)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heralds for Hire in Pittsburgh/BMDL Area 
From: hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 08:47:21 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


In article <1992Aug17.170634.1822@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> dylan@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:

  > I just heard on the radio that the Pittsburgh newspapers
  > which are entering their 4th month in a strike are trying
  > a new tactic to distribute their news:  they are auditioning
  > for 'Town Criers'  

You mean there are cities out there that _don't_ have town criers? 

(Admittedly this fair town goes overboard by having an official wizard as 
well ... but I digress.)

 ----------------------------------------------
 Phil Anderson  ***  hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
 ----------------------------------------------
       "No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authenticity, Atmosphere & SCA
From: pols055@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:28:10 +1200
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

Greetings from Southron Gaard,

I like Enrich the fuzzy's (?) idea of recreating specific happenings but I
perceive a possible problem. If this were to be done as a SCA event how would
you enforce the `minimum authenticity for the period under re-creation' for
that event. Or to put it differently, could you stop SCA members from turning
up in their normal persona? I think not.

Maybe such events should be done as household events or as other non-offical
sca type events. Then one could afford to be tougher about the re-creation
aspect without running into the problem of people who want to go (here, for
example, many people go to practically every event that happens), but cannot be
bothered making a new outfit for it.

Eleonora van den Bogaerde, Southron Gaard, Caid.
Simone Hindin, Christchurch, New Zealand.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Subject: Pennsic Dance Post-Mortem
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 21:38:39 GMT

Well, Pennsic is finally past, and the dancing with it. As most of you
who danced at the War know, we tried out many of the suggestions made
here on the Rialto in running the dancing this year. My overall
assessment: it went a fair bit better than the past several years, but
there's still plenty of room for improvement.

So as not to lose the benefit of experience yet again, I'm planning on
writing up a detailed post-mortem of this year's Pennsic dancing,
including: what didn't work in previous years; what experiments we
tried; and how it all went. This will be sent to anyone who is either
relevant or interested. (Or both.) With some luck, the people running
dancing next year can do better; as long as things keep improving,
I'll be reasonably happy.

I'm now soliciting input for the post-mortem. If you have any opinions
about how the dancing went, *please* send me some email about it. Even
more strongly, if you have any suggestions for next year, please pass
them on. I'm looking for ideas from all sides -- not just dancemasters,
but dancers (both hard-core and occasional) and musicians as well.
(*Especially* musicians -- most of the suggestions I got at 2am each
night seemed to be ways to improve the music situation, and I think
that there's a lot we can do to make that run more smoothly.) I'd
like to write this all up over the next few weeks, while it's still
reasonably fresh in my mind, so get those opinions to me early. If you
have friends who have opinions, but who don't have Net access, have them
call me at (617) 891-3057, before 11pm EST.

Don't post to the Rialto, unless you really think that you have an idea
of broad interest, or one that needs discussing. If you *do* post, please
email me as well -- after ten days at the, uh, Police Action, I'm now
twenty or so digests behind, and it'll take a while to catch all the way up.

				-- Justin du Coeur
				   Suggestion #1: Start planning six months
				     in advance, not three weeks...
				   Suggestion #2: Delegate, delegate, delegate

Random Quote du Jour:

"4: It is unethical to use whoopee cushions on anxious patients.
 7: It is unethical to interpret missed sessions due to death as resistance.
 9: It is unethical to measure the lateness of compulsive patients
    in milliseconds."
		-- from "Ethical Priciples of Psychologists: An Update"
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: tabard (was: kids in SCA
Date: 19 Aug 92 06:01:26 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In article <F45kPB4w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>wasn't that the point of dressing your lackeys in your arms back when?  why not
>have the nippers wear a surcoat of the arms of the person they represent while
>they are representing them?  from what i have read, that is period...  then you
>would KNOW that little jenny represents Duke Fred of the Howling Winds, and
>people might step more smartly...  B)

A proxy wears a tabard, which is not a surcote of the usual form.  A tabard
is a four-lobed poncho: two big lobes, front and back; two little lobes,
covering the upper arms; each of the four lobes bears the device of the
person represented.

anton@cloondara.mists.west.sca
-- 
D Anton Sherwood *\\* dasher@well.sf.ca.us *\\* +1 415 664 2229
Libertarian candidate for California Assembly, 12th district
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic, Some Thoughts
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:25:03 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Vajk writes:

>There seems to be a desire to have more in-depth arts and sciences at Pennsic.
>More specifically, I have heard of a desire to have a separate and more or less
>permanent setup at Pennsic for the practice of the A&S.  A large tent or
>pavilion, or perhaps an encampment of artisans dedicated to teaching/
>demonstrating their skills was one suggestion.  

This sounds like an interesting idea, but it might run into the
same problem that period encampments such as Cariadoc's Enchanged
Ground face: people want to camp with their friends.  Master Robert
Seemchecker might love to spend all his time in the A&S camp talking 
about embroidery, but if his wife is a stickjock who wants to camp 
with her comrades, there may still be problems.

Colocating all arts and sciences activities may not be desireable,
either.  If you have fires going for things like forges, the smoke
and soot might be a nuisance for people like weavers, embroiderers,
lacemakers, etc. who want to keep their stuff clean.  If people are 
cooking up smelly dyestuffs, they are likely to drive many of the other 
artisans out of camp.  Some thought needs to be given as to which particular
arts and sciences can live together peacefully.

>Any activity requiring long periods of time or equipment not easily moved
>would set up in such an area.  Of course, we would need to arrange for
>security, electricity if needed (like for sewing machines), and schedule
>classes in such a way that the available space was efficiently used.

Lighting is another consideration.  If you expect people to be doing things 
after dark, well, tiki torches and firelight just aren't adequate for fine
work like embroidery and sewing.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Who Won the War?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 00:48:10 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Aug20.161916.1@idiws1.idi.battelle.org> system@idiws1.idi.battelle.org writes:
>The East *and its Allies* defeated the Middle and our Allies.
>
>We've got more than two kingdoms involved here, and they all deserve
>credit for their participation.  My Kingdom (along with our allies)
>lost the tourney, but I had great fun anyway.  (I heard that we were
>outnumbered almost 2 to 1, so the outcome wasn't much of a suprise.)

Can anyone report on what An Tir did, and whom An Tir fought for?
I'd love to hear the No-Shit stories, if anyone will mail or post
them...

Carolus Mediocris
Montengarde An Tir
Deputy Constable (weee! I'm important!)
Broken thumb healing.
Still a little testy.

-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: guth@unixg.ubc.ca (Geoff Guth)
Subject: Re: Puritans
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:25:41 GMT

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto, Greetings!

My Lord Hossein Ali Qomi writes most eloquently on the subject of the
history of British North America in the 13 American colonies, and
corrects many of the worst of my mistakes.  For that, he has earned my 
gratitude.

I still, however, find it curious that the refugees fleeing the Revolutionary
War should be so overwhelmingly Anglican.  I am told that a large percentage
of American colonists ended up fleeing the 13 colonies, with most ending 
up in Upper Canada.  Why, then, was the revolution so repugnant to Anglicans,
while so embraced by other religious groups, some of which, as has been
established by the learned Hossein Ali Qomi, enjoyed dominant status in
many colonies?  Could the reason lie in the fact that the American colonies
were not entirely British, but had colonists from other lands as well, i
including the Germans and Dutch?  (but why then did the French in Quebec
not whole-heartedly join the revolution?)

I would also appreciate all responses to be sent to me through email, so
as not to disturb the visitors to this bridge with any more of this OOP
conversation.

In service,

Richard.

-- 

|Geoff Guth                          |Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni |
|Richard Britnell de Salisbury (sca) |     in rebus latinis alacribus et      |
|guth@unixg.ubc.ca                   |        fructuosis potiri potes!        |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Subject: Re: Principality futures (was: Re: Drachenwald to be kingdom)
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 22:24:26 GMT


In a previous article, Hal Ravn wrote:

>What with 4 Principalities (two reigns each in 3 of 'em and 3 in the
>other one--I think) and 3 reigns a year in the kingdom, we accumulate
>Viscounts and Counts fairly rapidly . . .

And then there's Duke Paul of Bellatrix, who often appears to be trying
to counter that trend single-handedly.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078@sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: bq434@cleveland.freenet.edu
      mchance@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Welsh and our vowels.
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:07:47 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


> M> A.  E.  I.  O.  U.  W.  Y.

> M> SEVEN of them.

And Y can be long, short, or obscure.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West



--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
From: Jeff Lee <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anyone see the Pennsic mumming?
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 19:12:12 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

In article <1992Aug19.101832.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, jvincent@eagle.wesleyan.edu (The Ulair) writes:
> 
>      I am wondering if anyone here had the chance to see the mumming which
> took place at the War Friday evening. It seemed a most impressive spectacle,
> from my position holding the Emperor's sedan chair.
> 
>      Hopefully, Caitrin will post a description of it soon.

I hope so too; I'd wanted to be in it, but I had to take a friend to the 
hospital Friday afternoon and didn't get back 'til after dark.  :-(

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Duncan Peter G. Thornton)
Subject: Re: Some Future War
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:04:22 GMT

In <ewright.714161947@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

>Bertram of Bearington (Dave Schroeder) writes:

>>Silver Buccle responds, "Your ancient rights will be respected.
>>If you wish to fertilize *Our* land with *your* blood you have 
>>Our leave, so long as you do not molest Our serfs or Our cattle."

>Serfs?  But that word won't even be invented until the 17th Century!

>-- Nicholas van Leyden

_serf_ [...] C15th Century; from Old French; from Latin _servus_
a slave ... 

- Collins English Dictionary

Pedantically, 

Corwin of Lincoln


Duncan Thornton          | Astronomy teaches the correct use of the sun and
thorntn@ccu.umanitoba.ca |      the planets.   - Stephen Leacock
	
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Re: The Welsh and our vowels.
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 19:40:31 GMT

>
> M> A.  E.  I.  O.  U.  W.  Y.
>
> M> SEVEN of them.
>
> M> Count 'em and weep.

Italian has seven vowels, too:

I E E A O O U

-- 
D. Anton Sherwood *\\* dasher@well.sf.ca.us *\\* +1 415 664 2229
Libertarian candidate for California Assembly, 12th district
	"They'll say you are foolish in wanting the sun,
	 say you are selfish in learning to run...." --Janis Ian
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: WAAAAAAAAAA
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Distribution: na, usa, world
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 13:39:49 GMT

I grieve with thee.

Balderik
From: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: kids in SCA
Date: 22 Aug 92 22:13:29 GMT
Reply-To: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

Arval wrote, concerning what to do with SCA children:

>How did they deal with the problem in the Middle Ages?  The problem of
>educating and socializing children is hardly new; why don't we look to
>medieval models, and find out how we can allow our children to _help_ us
>re-create the Middle Ages, instead of sending them away while we play
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>without them.  Apprenticeship, fostering, etc. offer excellent ways for
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>adults and children to help each other while learning about medieval
>culture together. 

It appears to me from reading of the early lives of actual medieval nobles
that "sending them away..." is *exactly* the medieval model, and one of the
main points of the fostering system that was developed back then.

I agree with a lot of the points which Arval made in this posting, but
pretending that the real Middle Ages did *not* segregate children in any
way is hardly conducive to our re-creation.  Research should definitely be
done to find what children did and what the entire range of customs was,
but it's a bit naive to expect that somehow an age when children mattered
relatively little (except in dynastic matters) will provide a whole
spectrum of enlightening activities which the children can share with the
adults in a purely authentic fashion.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins@msupa.pa.msu.edu
 North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins@msupa (Bitnet)
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
p.s., of course, the age at which the "child"-->"adult" transition occurred
was different back then (and not very consistent from time to time or place
to place or between fields of reponsibility), so my comments have to be
adjusted to account for this -- i.e., they pretty much don't apply to
teenagers...
Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:11712 news.answers:2481
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Update (End)
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:22:28 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

>> correct interaction," among others.  In my opinion, "springing" the
>> "Grand Tournament" on attendees, rather than "publicizing" it was
> 
>Not to mention 'springing' it on the allied kings at the last minute -- yes, it
>was *that* much a last minute idea (and not a good one, IMHO, even if I am a
>royalist).

Pity the allied kings didn't hear about it until the last minute.  I don't
know how the Middle has been treating it, but Eastern courts and published
letters from royalty have been making it pretty clear out here that there
was intent to change the slant somewhat.

Ellisif
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet