HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:21:26 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Read my essays!

When and where was Jesus probably born? Aside from the assurance
provided by religious faith, what grounds, have we, and how strong,
for supposing the Gospel accounts of the Infancy of Jesus to be
historically accurate? I have written two long essays on the
subject, which can be obtained from the CHRISTIA library by sending
the messages GET INFANCY PART1  and GET INFANCY PART2 to
LISTSERV@ASUACAD.BITNET or LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
For a list of other available essays by various persons, send the
message GET LIBRARY CATALOG.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 08:45:49 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Interrupting a worship service.
              92 12:46 pm

>
>The simple facts are that people who call themselves Christians were
>engaging in the disruption of a Christian worship service, how they did it
>is irrelevant.
>
The question on whether or not it was a christian worship service might
be raised.. Although i know very little of the circumstances, I find
it hard to believe that the sorts of things that these people stand for
in anyway reflect the life of the Holy Spirit living within..

Can a christian interrupt a service of satanists if they call themselves
christian??

>Jesus said that where two, three or more are gathered in His name, He is in
>their midst.  How can somebody who claims to be a follower of the Master
>justify the interruption of such a service?  To say that the particular
>church in question was engaging in non-Christian things regarding their
>teen sexuality seminars is a poor excuse at best.

In His Name? Just as the satanists might be gathered in HIS name..

I am not neccesarily justifying what these people did, mainly because I dont
understand it. But you basically cannot make blanket statements that a
christian service cannot be interrupted under any circumstances.

>Dan Graham



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:32:23 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.

On Dec 22,  2:44pm, "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." wrote:
} Subject: Re: Operation Pest.
} <        Come now, don't you think calling it an 'atrocity' is a bit
} <strong?
}
} I saw much stronger language used when Roman Catholic members of ACT UP
} pulled the same stunt at St. Patrick's.

        From what I know, what ACT-UP did at St. Pat's was a lot more
disturbing; they threw condoms, they chained themselves to the pews,
and most grievously, they showed incredible disrepect in desecrating
the Blessed Sacrament.  I think that's a lot worse than simply yelling;
besides, from what I understand, what was interrupted in this case
was not a worship service but a workshop on teen sexuality (or did
I misread the original post?).  That's a far cry from what happened
at St. Pat's.
}
} <        Frankly, considering what the Presbyterians were sponsoring,
} <I would have been out there too.  It's an affront to all that
} <Christ stands for.
}
} So you support disrupting religious ceremonies.  Do you approve of ACT UP's
} action as well, or does this support only extend to those who you agree with?
}
}-- End of excerpt from "Love does not subtract, it multiplies."

Do I support disrupting religious ceremonies?  In general, no.  As I stated
above, I was under the impression that what was disrupted was not in
fact a worship service but a workshop.  I do not approve of ACT-UP -- I
almost had my arm broken by one.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:54:16 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: CS LEWIS - SCREWTAPE REVIEW
              93 10:09 pm

>
>Ian, you object that the demons tempting humans in THE SCREWTAPE
>LETTERS do not know whether a human they are tempting is one of
>the elect. But suppose they did. Would they not spare themselves
>the trouble of tempting anyone they knew was saved? And would they
>not spare themselves the trouble of tempting anyone they knew
>was damned? Given your premises, namely
>   (1) eternal security, plus
>   (2) knowledge by the demons of who is secure and who is not,
>it seems to follow that demons will never tempt anyone at all.
>Of course, many Christians who believe (1) will reject (2). I have
>seen arguments for (1). Do you have any for (2)?
>
> Yours,
> James Kiefer
>
Well, Revelations tells us that Satan is preoccupied with accusing the
bretheren, so obviously satan knows who to accuse and who not.. Whether this
makes 'sense' or not is not really relevant, as the bible says it is true,
and I do not see satan making much 'sense' anyway...

Well I accept both 1 and 2, namely eternal security and the fact that
demons tempt saved people.
Someone can be saved and life an entirely UNFRUITFUL life for christ and do
nothing to accomplish the vision of the church. This may be a prime
objective in the kingdom of darkness, to keep those who are the elect as
useless as possible.
I believe in free will in order to receive salvation, and free will in order
to make our salvation usefull while we are on earth.
May this be an argument for case number 2???

Regards


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD"
X-VMS-Cc: B882SA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Dec 1992 08:53:00 CST
From:         Sieg A U R I C H <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>
Subject:      Setting NOMAIL

For whomever my be interested, or care :{>

Because of extended travel and time away, although I will be checking my
mailbox for private messages periodicly, I am setting Christia NOMAIL.

                        In and For HIS Service,

                                Sieg <><
                           B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Virginia Department of Health
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:56:56 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Judging Operation Rescue workers
              28 Dec 1992 15:38:14 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

I don't know all the details of the activities of "Operation Rescue", but
as many of you know, I watch Rush and 700 Club all the time and don't
remember this being mentioned at all in any of my "conservative" shows.

Right or wrong, if it had nation wide support of OR, I think it would
have hit one of those two shows.

Another comment. There is the 5-fold ministry, and one of those is
prophet. The prophet points out, usually bluntly, when things go wrong.
I wouldn't doubt that this would have been similar to John telling the
king he was in error taking his brother's wife or what ever. Poor John
lost his head over this one.

Maybe they were a bit misguided. It might have been even better to simply
have a quiet candle vigil outside the church for the 24 hours before and
the 24 hours after. To keep totally quiet during the protest.

I totally disagree with any comparisons to the gays and all. After all, did
they force their way into the church? Did they then break things and urinate
all over the church floor. If there were any news broadcasts, was it so full
of profanity that you could only get about 1 out of 10 words.

As an example of a demonstration, some may remember my "Children of the
Rainbow" and "District 24" who was protesting. Well, the gays showed up at
District 24 and this was shown on BOTH the 700 Club and Rush Limbaugh. They
had news footage of it. It went something like 'Oh yea? @#@$#$ !@#*@ @*#)@@
and you can @#@#$ @#&@ @!&^##, and furthermore, !@&#^&@@ @&#^@#@!!!!" I mean
even straining through the "beeps", you couldn't make an intelligent
conversation in the whole room. What's more, it was getting so out of hand
they canceled the session and had the police expel ALL the people.

And we have Christians who are willing to compare our own people to the
likes of this. As was pointed out, many of them are quite dedicated and
committed Christians. Look at Paul in jail, "I knew I shouldn't have
been so committed, now I AM committed!" :-)

Maks.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:43:00 CET
From:         TUK@IAEA1.BITNET
Subject:      Happy New Year

Greetings!

Long time no see (nomail).

May our Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father
and Prince of Peace give you each a good new year.  May we all
1.  rejoice evermore;
2.  pray without ceasing;
3.  in every give thanks...
for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Bye for now.

Peter Tuff
IAEA, Vienna
tuk@iaea1.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Virginia Department of Health
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Dec 1992 05:44:36 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: RE:FRESH INFILLING-MAKS

I was looking at the walls of my office and noticed a banner I have up
on one wall.

"I have no greater joy than to hear my children are walking in the truth."
                     3 John 4

Maks :-)

PS: For those that might even think my daughter is perfect now, she's
    not. Yesterday she stuck her glasses in her coat pocket. You guessed
    it they fell out in the parking lot, and by the time she discovered
    what she did they had been run over by a car. :-( Pray the Lord will
    help us get her another pair.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:57:12 EST
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Assisted suicide
              22 Dec 1992 13:28:30 -0500 from <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>

Dear Dan,

    The reason the older guy went to jail probably is because he not only sugge
sted suicide, but also supplied the weapon for implementation.  This, in all li
kelihood, looked to the jury as if he was at least partially serious when he ma
de the suggestion.  I'm not saying he was serious; just what the jury possibly
concluded from the circumstances.



Marissa Ratcliff               Document Delivery
University of GA               Science Library
Athens, GA

P.S.  I'm sure the guy DOES feel pretty awful.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:27:40 EST
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Going Nomail

To all,
   I just wanted you to know how much this list has blessed my life
this past year. I have really enjoyed, for the most part, the give
and take on critical issues. You have challenged my cherished beliefs
and a lot of my legalistic ivory towers have crumbled.
   Merry Christmas to all and a healthy and happy New Year. We will
be going to our traditional candlelight Christmas Eve service and
spending Christmas day with family. I will be setting Christia
to nomail over the holidays as I have the week off between Christmas
and New Years. My prayer for the coming year is that I will better
show the love of Jesus Christ to those around me and on this list.
                                                 In Christ,
                                                 Claude Garner
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Encoding: 44 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 (beta-2)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:48:00 CST
From:         RussN@SSECMAIL.SSEC.WISC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.

>about 8 or 9 months ago I watched on a sonagram screen as this modern
>technological wonder probed my wife's uterus. Finally, the screen landed
>on a small white dot about the size of a butterbean. The close-up revealed
>its little heart beating 90 miles an hour. Now that same little heart powers
>the vibrant little life that I hold in my arms day by day and that cracks up
>when her silly old dad does a James Brown shuffle while changing her diaper.

Mark, you're really lucky, I wasn't able to go with my wife during the first
sonogram...but, the next one is in a couple of weeks and I'm definately not
going to miss it!  (The doctor was kind enough to give Shellie a copy of our
"butterbean" so that I could see it -- we like to call it the first "baby
picture" :-)  )

>I regularly remember that butterbean, and brokenheartedly I wonder :how can
>they say its not a real life, and kill it? This society's conscience has
>truly been seared with a hot iron. 'Nuff said, just some heartfelt
>thoughts....Mark

Every time I feel the baby kick or move, I'm amazed at the little life that's
growing in there, and I also wonder how society can say it isn't a life when,
at only six months, the baby can distinquish between my hand and his/her
mother's...(it kicks me all the time, but won't kick Shellie's hand a lot)
And then to think that pregnancy is looked upon as a misfortune...I was
excited when I found out Shellie was pregnant (sure I was scared too, but
mostly excited).

When I told people at work that I was going to be a dad, those that had kids
were very happy for me, but those who haven't had kids didn't really know
what to say... One guy did say later on that he would be "devastated" if his
wife happened to get pregnant...After a while I noticed that I was trying to
hide my excitement from my co-workers (for fear of acting "too excited"), and
then I realized that these thoughts and attitudes were what the world wanted
me to have -- since then, I'm in the process of getting rid of them and
becoming excited (again) about being a father!  (and I'll probably be a silly
one...)


Russ Neumeier
SSEC, UW-Madison
Madison, WI -- sixty-two square miles surrounded by reality
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 31 Dec 1992 12:36:15 EST
From:         newman@CPS.MSU.EDU
Subject:      christian life group

Please send me information about what your newsgroup discusses and how I
could subscribe if I was interested.

Thanks,
Tim Newman
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 08:40:39 EST
From:         Jon Loux <JLOUX@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
              18 Dec 1992 15:16:00 MST from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.U TAH.EDU>

>an exact quote, but it's close] "the next best-known Christmas character
>after Father Christmas himself" is ... yes, Ebenezer Scrooge.

Actually, he's a more fitting figure for Christmas than many others I've
seen.  I just finished reading A Christmas Carol to my daughter last night
so the exploits and spiritualization of old Ebenizer is fresh in my mind.

He was a man who was embittered and hostile toward the world.

Is defense against it was to surround himself by a wall of money.  For
some today, that defense takes the form of alcohol, drugs, email, etc.

He was visited by three spirits, representing the memory of hurts (Christmas
Past), a soul searching of where those led him (Christmas Present) and
the realization of where it will ultimately deliver him (Christmas Future).
The result of this hard inward look was repentence. Repentence and a change
of heart, will and action.

Not entirely a bad image for Christmas.

Jon.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 21:42:26 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject: Re: Holy Innocents

On Dec 28,  1:24pm, "Scott D. Weberg" wrote:
 > Subject: Re: Holy Innocents
 > Fr. John Woolley,
 >
 > Thanks for sharing the sonnet.  This "Holy Innocents" is a
 > Catholic thing, right?  Obviously, I'm not a Catholic, so I
 > hadn't heard of this before, but I really appreciated your
 > sonnet.  Thanks again!
- End of excerpt from "Scott D. Weberg"

I think most Christians know about the children of Bethlehem
killed by order of King Herod. It is just that they may not
recognize the term "the Holy Innocents" used to describe them.
The story is in the Bible (Matthew 2); the term isn't.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:59:01 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      our baby, the first look

Yesterday we had the ultrasound of the baby (the 18 week one).. WOW!

I feel priviledged to be allowed a look into the workshop of God, who is
forming our baby.. It almost seemed like an intrusion into a place where
the baby was only half made, and the finishing touches were still to be
added. Still I am thankfull for  modern technology..

It all seems a little more real now... Praise be to him!


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:30:55 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Operation Pest.

> Any other babies expected out there in Christia land?

We are expecting our first grandbaby. Does that count?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:32:13 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      The Witness Days (week after Christmas Day)

THE WITNESS DAYS

On the six days after Christmas Day, we have five commemorations of
persons who have in various ways, by martyrdom or otherwise, born
witness to the truth of the Christian faith.

On December 26th, we remember St. Stephen, first member of the early
Christian church to be put to death for his faith -- see Acts 6,7.
He was "a martyr in will and deed."

On December 27th, we remember St. John the Evangelist, one of the
Twelve Apostles. It is commonly believed that, although he was
imprisoned and beaten for his adherence to Christ, he lived to old
age and died a natural death. He was "a martyr in will but not in
deed," meaning that he was willing to lay down his life for his
Lord, but was not called on to do so -- See M 20:20-28 = P 10:35-45.
(NOTE that the word "martyros" in pre-Christian Greek means simply
"witness," and that it is not always clear (as in Revelation 2:13)
whether Christian uses of it ought to be translated as "witness" or
in the narrow technical sense as "martyr.")

On December 28, we remember the Holy Innocents, the children of
Bethlehem who were slaughtered by command of King Herod lest one of
them prove a danger to his throne -- see M 2:16-18. They were
"martyrs in deed, though not in will," and their deaths are a
disquieting reminder that suffering on behalf of a good cause is not
always restricted to those who have a choice in the matter.

The witnesses commemorated on these first three days are all from
New Testament times. On the two days following, we commemorate
witnesses from a later period in Christian history. Taking them in
reverse order of days --

On December 31 we commemorate Sylvester, bishop of Rome from 313 to
335 -- that is, roughly from the Edict of Toleration issued by the
Emperor Constantine to the death of the said Emperor, and thus the
first bishop of Rome in the days after Christianity ceased to be an
illegal and persecuted religion. With his term of office, we enter
an era when to become a Christian is no longer to place oneself in
automatic danger of being put to death by the government.
However...

On December 29, we remember Thomas a Becket, Archbishop of
Canterbury, slain in his own cathedral in 1170, for his defiance of
King Henry II. The death of Thomas reminds us that a Christian, even
when safe from pagans, can be in danger from his fellow-Christians.

     *    *    *    *    *

In recent years, it has become the practice of some groups of
Christians to give the First Sunday after Christmas precedence over
the obsrvance of these days, and so to postpone by one day those
commemorations falling on or after that Sunday. Thus in this week we
have
 Fri 25 Dec Christmas Day
 Sat 26 Dec Stephen
 Sun 27 Dec First Sunday after Christmas
 Mon 28 Dec John the Evangelist (transferred from 27th)
 Tue 29 Dec Holy Innocents (transferred from 28th)
 Wed 30 Dec Thomas a Becket (transferred from 29th)
 Thu 31 Dec Silvester
 Fri  1 Jan Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1992 06:42:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      The United States is NOT a Christian nation.

I guess it is time to make this point again, let me see if I can do so in a
more comprehensible manner than I have done in the past.

While I have zero respect for Mr. Ankerberh, [spelling?] I was interested
in the quotes from Franklin.  It is rather interesting for a man whose life
repudiated any and all Christian principles to call for prayer, I wonder if
he even knew what it was, not to mention the God to whom it should have
been directed.

The real point, though, is this:  There cannot be any such thing as a
Christian nation.  There most certainly can be a nation of Christians, but
a nation cannot be Christian, Buddhist, Moslem or any other religion.

I don't care what your personal values are, you cannot rule a nation as a
Christian nation, the result will be a fundamentalist dictatorship.  For a
wonderful example of what happens when Christians try to run things "their
way," see both the Puritans in Colonial America and, even better, Calvin in
Geneva.  Geneva was run as a Christian city, or was it?  People all agreed
with the Ten Commandments, with the police standing over them to insure
cooperation.  In Puritan New England, you could spend half a day in the
public stocks for splitting wood on Sunday.  We don't need such trash
burdening down our society, it has far too much trash in it already.

Stop trying to Christianize the nation, or any nation.  Christians are
individuals, not nations.

Dan Graham
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU