HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:31:49 EST
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Harvey Smith writes:

>  b> Harvey, could you repost this with linefeeds?  I can't read it!
>  b> Thanks.
>  b> -- Bruce Tiffany
> 
> It will become a file and booklet as soon as the research is completed..
> 
> However, what do you mean repost this with linefeeds?  in file form???? 

Don't you ever hit the <RETURN> key, like at the end of each < 80 bytes
line (as I just did there)?

All I know is when I print your stuff out to read (I don't have time to read
alt.messianic at work), your lines run right off the page and appear to
continue on for miles.  They do this in the editor, too.  No one else's
posts do this.

-- Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: ALMAH - BETULAH
Date: 10 Jan 1993 00:40:51 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <141804.2B4DD28B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>As can plainly be seen, the Soncino Is. says EXACTLY what we've been
>saying all along: that almah can bear the meaning of virgin, (contrary
>to what one will hear on this net)!

Actually, Bill, this position of yours is very close to what I have
been saying all along, although perhaps you do not have me in mind as a
disputant. For essentially the entirety of this thread, I have said
over and over again that the Hebrew word "almah" means "young woman."
Periodically I have affirmed that there is no reason why a young woman
could not or should not be a virgin. The point that I as well as others
have made is that whether or not Isaiah *intended* the word "almah" to
mean virgin as opposed to any given young woman (whether his wife as
suggested by Rashi, or someone else) is a matter of interpretation. The
evidence of the Septuagint is that as early as the first, and perhaps
the second, century BCE, at least one Jew believed that Isaiah intended
the text to mean virgin. The debate has not ceased since.

It is my personal opinion, and that of many other scholars, both Jewish
and Christian, secular as well as religious, that Isaiah of the 8th
century BCE did *not* intend the word to mean virgin. But I as well as
the others recognize that there is room for legitimate difference of
opinion here. Harvey Smith's position, on the other hand, that the term
"almah" can only mean "virgin," is completely unsupportable on the
basis of objective lexicography.
-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Organization: University of Turku
	<1ietmvINN5t7@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan6195742@polaris.utu.fi> <fXDHi6C@quack.sac.ca.us>
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:10:38

In article <fXDHi6C@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan6195742@polaris.utu.fi> 
> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
> >will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
> >Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)

> By the way, on the off chance that you're interested in the original
> word, here is a faithful translation of the Masorah and Qumran texts:

> JPS Tanakh, ISBN: 0-8276-0252-9:
> Isaiah9:5
> 	For a child has been born to us,
> 	A son has been given us.
> 	And authority has settled on his shoulders.
> 	He has been named
> 	"The Mighty God is planning grace;(d)
> 	The Eternal Father, a peacable ruler" -

The beginning is more or less correct, but from 'He has been named' 
onwards...

'Vayikra shmo Pele Yoetz El Gibbor Avi Ad Sar Shalom'

vayikra shmo = and he will be called
pele = miracle, wonderfull
yoetz = councellor
El = God
gibbor = hero (as an adjective 'mighty')
avi = my father
ad = to everlasting
sar = prince, ruler, minister
shalom = peace

'And he will be called Wonderfull (,) Councellor, Mighty God, Everlasting
Father, Prince of Peace.'

> ----
> d: As in 25.1

> It seems that Christianity is full of propaganda which doesn't
> necessarily nullify the religion, but it seems one should wonder why such
> zealous marketing techniques are required to sell what is supposed to be
> the truth. If one seeks the truth, one should do so truthfully,
> otherwise one only fools oneself. If one seeks propaganda, there are
> always those who will sell it.

You are wrong... As I showed you, my translations are correct, yours 
aren't, so why not think for a while whose "religion" has to use
some special techniques.

Best regards,
Laura
--
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government 
will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Councellor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  - Yeshaya 9:5 (9:6)
 
"To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my
teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.""   - Yochanan 8:32-33
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:16:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.033610.29172@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>>>1) I gave you a clear, concise technical definition of what a
>>>Christian was.  If you choose to ignore it, what more can I do? 
>>You can give me a useful one?
>>The definition you gave me is _totally_useless_.  It requires that I make a
>>decision on something that you yourself cannot agree on.  If Christians cannot
>>themselves get consistent answers when they "look at the actions in their
>>context and totality", how do you expect me, not even a Christian, to do it?
>The definition I gave you did not require you to make a decision
>on anything.  Perhaps you have forgetten it, or did not read it.
>I will repost it again: Technically, all people who have been
>baptized and who have not renounced their faith are Christian,
>i.e. members of the Church of Christ.

OK.  This is a reasonable definition.

However, it does not seem to be the definition used when I point out something
some Christian did, and the reply is "they're not a _real_ Christian".

How can I tell a "real Christian" from someone who's merely a Christian?
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 5 Jan 1993 15:52:20 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <141731.2B489D7A@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>The Talmudic quotes are from the 15th century of the Aramaic and hebrew Talmud,
>I think the Babylonian, but could be the Jerusalem.  Research is ongoing..

It will probably be ongoing for a long time. Anyone who believes
this gibberish about the Talmud, Aramaica, etc...I've got a
few things I'd like to unload: a bridge, a Book of Scripture newly
taken from the holy earth of Michigan...
-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<fXDgaIB@quack.sac.ca.us> <LJMORLY.93Jan7194523@polaris.utu.fi>
Date: 8 Jan 1993 21:32:30 UTC

In article <LJMORLY.93Jan7194523@polaris.utu.fi> 
ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>In article <fXDgaIB@quack.sac.ca.us> 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>> Now, one would assume that if the young woman was in fact a virgin,
>> Isaiah the great prophet would have pointed this out since a virgin with
>> child would be rather unusual.
>I'll continue this in other replies, but for one thing it could not
>have been any sign if some zona would have got a baby, and there's
>no mention of anybody called Immanuel during that time.

The sign is straightforward if one continues with the text:

Isaiah 7:10 (JPS:TANAKH):

	(10) The LORD spoke further to Ahaz: (11) "Ask for a sign from
the LORD your God, anywhere down to Sheol or up to the sky." (12) But
Ahaz replied, "I will not ask, and I will not test the LORD." (13)
"Listen, House of David," [Isaiah] retorted, "is it not enough for you
to treat men as helpless that you also treat my God as helpless?(f) (14)
Assuredly, my LORD will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the
young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name
him Immanuel.(g) (15) (By the time he learns to reject the bad and
choose the good, people will be feeding on curds and honey.) (16) For
before the lad knows to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground
whose two kings you dread shall be abandoned. (17) The LORD will cause
to come upon you and your people and your ancestral house such days as
never have come since Ephraim turned away from Judah - that selfsame
king of Assyria!(h)
---
f: By insisting on soliciting the aid of Assyria (see 2Kings16.7 ff; cf.
below, v.20). "Treat as helpless" follows the translation of Saadia; cf.
Gen. 19.11
g: Meaning "with us is God."
h: Cf. note on v.13
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 10 Jan 93 14:20:32 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 JL> By the way, if anyone would like to know my bona fides in matters
 JL> such as the definitions of Hebrew words, please feel free to 
 JL> e-mail to me and I will do the best I can to satisfy the 
 JL> request.
 JL> -- 
we are all waiting with bated breath Jack...  as to your bona fides...(grin) 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: ***ADVERT: Future Postings on Alt.Messianic***
Date: 11 Jan 93 14:02:50 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


From Monday January 18th I intend to be posting extensively to alt.messianic about Messiah Jesus (who else?).  Things like fulfilled Messianic prophecy and so on.

I would be grateful if you could encourage people to subscribe especially those who know little or nothing about these newsgroups.

BELIEVERS, You can tell two types of people:
(1) Christians who are interested in bringing the Messiah to their unsaved Jewish friends and want to learn a few of the proofs.
(2) Your own Jewish friends.

[Please make sure they are not intimidated by computers and know how to use things like e-mail confidently]

UNBELIEVERS, I think that there are two types out there:
(1) Type 1 - those who are interested in seeing these proofs to make an objective decision.
(2) Type 2 - those who seem to make an almost professional living out of trying to refute Missionary activity: stick around you will see some new proofs and some old proofs presented in new ways.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)
From: friedenb@ash.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Moshiach Ben Yosef, Eliahu HaNavi
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:24:23 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@ash.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ash.egr.msu.edu


How do the "messianic" Christians (J4J) excuse the absence of Moshiach
Ben Yosef preceeding Moshiach Ben Dovid?  Where were the earthquakes
and wars that are supposed to come with Ben Yosef?  How about Eliahu
HaNavi ushering in Moshiach Ben Dovid?

I have eaten swill cheese which did not have as many holes in it as the
J4J stories.  ;^)

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University


                   
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 10:42:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.151154.18933@cs.unca.edu>
kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
 
>What the Vatican did had nothing to do with
>the Vatican wanting to kill Jews and Atheists, but if you insist that it is,
>why don't you balance this with how many Christians were killed by the
>Jewish Atheists of the Soviet Union Bolshevic leadership?
 
For what reason did the 'Jewish Atheists of the Soviet Union Bolshevic leader-
ship' kill Christians? For that they were Jewish, that they were Atheists,
that they were Bolshevics, or which combination of it?
 
Antisemitism had a strong base in the RCC, some of the most important champions
of Antisemitism were Catholic prelates, and they sat in the Vatican as well.
Jews are lieing about Jesus, you know, and whoever lies about god has to be
punished. Not exactly a new idea of the church.
As far as I know, Pope Pius was even asked to condemn the persecution of Jews -
and refused to.
 
 
And there is documentary evidence for the collaboration of church and the
Nazis for their mutual benefit. The official church did not oppose Nazism
before the killing of (Catholic) cripples (Euthanasieprogramm) started.
However, this was by no means the end of the collaboration.
   Benedikt
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7: 14
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 02:42:36 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <LJMORLY.93Jan7201038@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:

|> 
|> vayikra shmo = and he will be called

And his *name* will be called

|> pele = miracle, wonderfull
|> yoetz = councellor
|> El = God
|> gibbor = hero (as an adjective 'mighty')
|> avi = my father
|> ad = to everlasting
|> sar = prince, ruler, minister
|> shalom = peace
|> 
|> 'And he will be called Wonderfull (,) Councellor, Mighty God, Everlasting
|> Father, Prince of Peace.'
|> 

You accept Prince *of* Peace, but not Councellor *of* Mighty God.

I can't see any linguistic reason why you do, only a religious one.

If the Bible had intended to say that a human being would
be born who would actually *be* God (not just have a name
with God inside it, which was fairly common), then I expect
it would be said very explicitly, not buried inside a 
linguistic conundrum.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah in Isa 7:14
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:08:26 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

issues of Torah and Tanakh that relate directly as to how, and 
what is proper exegetics of many  
>>scriptures especially Isa 7:14.

 JL> I don't understand this sentence at all. 
Well it was very very plain Jack.  Rabbis have their own interpretation of Isa 7:14 in an attempt to debunk the Virgin birth, doctrine of Christianity. If this isn't opposites in exegetics than i don't know what is.

>> JL> why do so many Christian translations and commentaries 
>> JL> accept "young woman" as the correct text and either reject 
>> JL> or question "virgin?"

Only in liberal non biblical churches Jack...  Many have departed from the faith, no longer believing in the virgin birth, or the Scriptures as being anything but the Word of God.


 JL> context of your remarks? Are you excluding Roman Catholics,
 JL> Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc. etc. from your 
 JL> definition of Christians? Because translations officially 
 JL> adopted by all of those Churches accept "young woman" over 
 JL> "virgin." 

The question is not whether the word alma means virgin  or young woman, for it surely does mean young woman of marriageable age or betrothed to be married, and in EVERY CASE in the Tanakh where the word is used, it refers to a virgin, so it means a young maiden, who is a virgin, so the Rabbinic translators who translated it in 300bce into greek meaning VIRGIN, ie parthenos.... and correctly so.

Many historic churches have long left the faith, and that is one of the reasons so many of them are losing membership and have been for well over 20 years.

 JL> Sorry Harvey, the volume of your verbiage does not mean you 
 JL> are correct. Almah means "young woman" and has nothing to say one
 JL> way or another about virginity in the modern English sense of 
 JL> that word. This is the consensus of all modern scholarship. If 
 JL> you wish to believe otherwise, that is your perogative. But it 

Nope Sorry Jack, just finished a research on the word almah, and in Ugaritic the word alma poetically is always associated with the term virgin...  

So whether or not you wish to believe is your business, but in antiquity which is when it was written, the writers and expositors utilized wording that they knew and understood...  Interesting that for centuries, it stood Virgin, and from the 9th century to the 18th century in the Masoretic text it was always translated by the Rabbis as "Virgin"... 
--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Xref: sparky alt.crackers:2 misc.test:15065
From: nobody@Pa.dec.com ()
Newsgroups: alt.crackers,misc.test
Subject: Re: Screw crackers
Date: 11 Jan 1993 16:46:23 GMT
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbhp87.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de

In article <C0o1t0.6F6@ecf.toronto.edu>, murraya@ecf.toronto.edu (MURRAY ALEXANDER W) writes:
> In article <1993Jan10.210514.18633@netcom.com> linley@netcom.com says:
> [...]
> >Sorry, I prefer Munchos. It's not a potato chip. It's not a corn chip. It's a
> >little of both.
> 
> Sounds like the big Crispers debate.  It's a chip!  It's a cracker!  It's
> a chip!  No, dammit, it's a cracker!  

It's a chip !
I like the black ones, that with lots of pins on it :)

> 
> Shaddap'n'eat'em.
> 
> >ObCrack: Who owns the software? Page 1 of the user manual says, "Thank you for
> >         your purchase of <software title>." There, see. I own it.
> 
> Kinda like cable TV's Pay stations.  I figure, I pay for the signal,
> therefore I can modify it in whatever way I choose.  If I feel like
> inverting the signal, or reconsituting the sync pulses, why should they care?
> :^)  Ya right...
> 
> Regards,
> -- 
> Alex Murray, 9:III  I8F5G:6X@-C`P('-U8FQI;6EN86P*)S%&64\\1C!.(D!@8`I@"F5N9`H` `
> MurrayA@ECF.Toronto.Edu, or SIZone!Alex@EE.Ryerson.Ca ._ _     _  _  _     _
> ______________________________________________________| | || || `| `'_||_|'_|__
> "No sir, I didn't [write] it," disclaimed Mr. Horse.  | | |!_||  |  !_|._!!_|




Xref: sparky alt.crackers:1 alt.cesium:305
From: android@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (your plastic pal who's fun to be with)
Newsgroups: alt.crackers,alt.cesium
Subject: Personal Favorite
Date: 6 Jan 1993 08:10:34 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
Disclaimer: This man is a fool.  Do not attempt this at home.


I rather like a flaky butter cracker lightly salted with cesium chloride.

-- 
Andrew John Petrarca | ...As a result of this positive feedback, the total  
this line is filler  | schmuckitude function of the Universe is approaching 
android@wpi.wpi.edu  | a vertical asymptote.  This is called the "schmuck   
____________________/  death" - total annihilation of all that is competent.
Xref: sparky alt.crackers:4 misc.test:15118 alt.fan.warlord:9991
From: kschwab@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kerry Schwab)
Newsgroups: alt.crackers,misc.test,alt.fan.warlord
Subject: Re: SA Cable Converters
Date: 12 Jan 1993 02:20:01 GMT
Distribution: world
Followup-To: alt.crackers
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Nntp-posting-host: mnemosyne
X-tra_Header: one
Keywords: 


In article <1993Jan11.190147.26959@zip.eecs.umich.edu> positron@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jonathan Haas) signs:  
>
>-- 
>__/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
>\    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
>/_  _\  positron@eecs.umich.edu  | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
>  \/    Finger for PGP key       | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.

 ^^^^^^

Since Jonathan included his ascii rendition (barphic) of a Sociables 
cracker, I felt obligated to submit my saltine. 

--
  _______
 [ ..... ]  Kerry R. Schwab       | Jake liked his women the way he liked
 [ ..... ]  Denver University     | his crackers: bland yet tasty, crisp-
 [ ..... ]  kschwab@nyx.cs.du.edu | tasting yet soft in the mouth, and
 [_______]  Finger for last login | covered with iodized salt.


Newsgroups: alt.crackers,misc.test
From: positron@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jonathan Haas)
Subject: SA Cable Converters
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:01:47 GMT

Firstly, screw whoever moderated this group.

Secondly, anyone know what sort of protocol is used by Scientific Atlanta
cable converters to process signals from the cable company on which channels
to block?


-- 
__/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
\    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
/_  _\  positron@eecs.umich.edu  | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
  \/    Finger for PGP key       | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Damned Souls (was Re: Version Five)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 16:47:53 GMT

Hillel Gazit:

>I don't want to help a system which is discriminatory, and 
>passive resistance seems to me appropriate.  IMO if everybody
>will refuse to fill up AA forms, the AA system will collapse.

Lenore Levine:
>>However, I don't see how my filling them out, in the way I do,
>>would in any way change the way I'm evaluated. 

>*Think* who competes against you in the graduate schools; have you 
>seen too many blacks between the students?  The AA helps mostly 
>women, and works against white and asian men.  You are obviously
>on the winning side.

>>(Of course, my gender would still be obvious in an interview...)

Once again: How would my gender be obvious from the forms, in
a way that's not obvious from my name?

>Hillel                                        gazit@cs.duke.edu

Lenore Levine
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:6990 soc.men:22471