From: bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Marvel Bashing, if you please!
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:25:55 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <92253.102258U16244@uicvm.uic.edu> U16244@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>Well, I've discoverred a certain attitude that isn't helping Marvel
>or any comics company really.  It's called "I refuse to sponsor the quality
>stuff that's put out because those bastards put out such crap otherwise."
>(You know who you are...)
>
>I have a certain friend who quite thoroughly enjoys such comics as X-Factor,
>She-Hulk, the Hulk, and admits he likes Daredevil and certain Punisher
>stories (if they're more than the standard slaughterfest and have some suspense
>and intrigue).  Trouble is, he refuses to buy any of those books solely on the
>grounds that he refuses to subsidize the company that puts out such shameless
>and hopeless crap fucking garbage like the Avengers (Harras's Hassles),
>Alpha Flight, X-Force, Captain America (yes, I agree that it's total shit,
>makes me yearn for Byrne and Stern back), and Iron Man (DIE DIE DIE YOU FUCKING
>PLAYBOY!!! DIE ALREADY!!!!!) as well as ruining his favorite books X-Men and
>the Defenders and most of the Punisher series.
>
>Now the point here is this, I'm quite, quite certain that if people who enjoy
>these comics, but refuse to lay down a penny for them out of the principle
>that they are Marvel books, and thus, should be completely shunned for the
>sheer fact that sooner or later, the editors will hack them to pieces for a
>more successful marketing strategy, are the very ones who killed off the
>charm and popularity of Captain America, the Avengers, horribly mutated the
>X-Men and the New Mutants, and turned the Punisher into a four color
>video game.  Oh, I can't buy anything, because they have the policy of
>bringing characters back from the dead and ruining old stories.
>
>Ruining old stories.  Like the death of Phoenix was any lessened when you
>read that Jean Grey is now alive and well.  It was still a tragic moment,
>something that affected the readers.  That's like saying that the Silver Age
>was ruined by the Modern Age in DC comics.  Just because these stories follow
>different timelines doesn't mean that the previous stories hold any less water.
>At least when Jean came back, she was completely messed up for the first few
>issues she appeared in, they handled her exactly the way anyone would react
>if they were told that they had not only died, but committed suicide for the
>sake of the universe.   Same thing with Simon Williams.

Yes, the death of Jean Grey WAS ruined when they resurrected her.  Uncanny
X-Men (remember the good old days when you could just call it X-Men,
without confusing it with another book) #137 was a good issue, but
by saying it didn't accomplish anything, you ruin the emotional impact
of the story (possibly only if you read it before Jean came back, like
I did, and possibly only if you go back and read it again now, and
realize that you're reading a story that's essentially worthless to
the continuity).  To some, there may not be much of a difference
between "Jean Grey, one of the founding members of the X-Men, and one
of Marvel's original characters, realzing that she's turning evil,
sacrifices herself to save the universe" and "some cosmic entity that
thinks it's Jean Grey, one of..." but there is to me.  Finding out
that a character you cared about really wasn't that character at all
lessens the impact any stories with the fake character had (that's why
I'm still mad about Alicia Masters being a Skrull and Lightning Lad
being Proty I, etc.).  Try watching a movie when you already know
the surprise twist ending.  Tends to lose something, doesn't it?
So do the old comics that have been retconned out of the continuity.

>However, good old Jim Starlin (now hack without peer) missed that one major
>point.  Adam Warlock and his whole goof crew are suddenly back and alive.
>And they think nothing of it!!!  Starlin, what the fuck is this?

Adam Warlock, Gamora (NOT Gamera), and Pip KNEW they were going to be
brought back to life!  They DID IT THEMSELVES!!!!!  The only difference
between their current status and their previous one was that, instead
of living life in the soul gem, they're living in the real world.
They were never truly dead, since their souls were still "alive" in
the soul gem.  Since they never "ceased to exist," why should
they spend a whole lot of time pondering upon this new twist?

>But I'm getting off the point.  Just because certain comics piss you off
>doesn't mean that you have to swear off every fucking thing they put out.
>As far as I'm concerned, New Warriors, Spider-Man, Hulk and X-Factor are
>off in a nice, safe corner of the universe where things are going fine.
>Parker's reacting to his parents "coming back" with a drunken, dazed look of
>disbelief while he's trying to find out what's going on. (I still say, the
>Skull's trying to nail Spidey for his previous messing in his affairs,
>after putting two and two together and finding out he's really Peter Parker.
>Spidey has sticken two major blows, first in Turkey- while he was proving his
>parents' innocence- and then in the Assassination Nation Plot.  It's the
>Skull's mindfuck revenge.  He intends to take Peter to pieces by pouring on
>the pressure of all kinds of foes, and the added strain of his parents'
>resurrection.  At least if I was the Skull, I'd do that.)

Minor nit-pick, first of all:  It was the Assassin Nation Plot, not the
Assassination Nation Plot.

Second, I think it's just some cheesy stunt to boost sales.  "Oooh!
Peter's parents are back!  But is it REALLY THEM?  Read the next 500
issues, and maybe we'll tell you who they REALLY ARE!"  Personally,
I think it is them, even though it's a really lame plot twist.  I
hope not, but I think it is.

>It's also the same reason why I pick up certain Image comics, instead of
>others (read: Liefeld's crap, Cyberfarce, ShadowSpinebreaker) because I
>know the money (most of it) is going directly to the creators who I do like
>at that company- Larsen, Choi and Lee, McFarlane (go ahead, flame me!!!
>Flame me!!!  I like Spawn!!!  C'mon!!!  I want your attacks.  I want them
>bad...).

I would, but I like Spawn, too.  It's the only decent title Image puts
out.  (Go ahead, flame me, too.  I know it's not Watchmen (but could
be soon, thanks to Alan Moore), but I do enjoy it.  So there, all you
Sandman and Cerebus fans!)

>And that's how I see the buyers and non-buyers being as much to blame about
>the Marvel downslide.  If all they sell is the tripe, eventually everything
>will turn to tripe.  But if the good comics were being bought more frequently,
>then maybe we'd get a little more depth and enjoyment out of the chaff, and
>dispose of the rest.

I agree with you here.  Unfortunately, with all the fanboys who want
nothing but the series with the hot artists, story be damned, I don't
think it's going to happen for a long time.
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