From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Seeking a Catholic Perspective
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:37:40 GMT

In article <BuG1pC.7xr@world.std.com> timk@world.std.com (Tim King),
answering Michele, writes:
>Oh yes, does the Catholic Church teach the Sacrement of Confession to be
>this kind of fundamental doctrine?  If so, how can a Protestant who doesn't
>accept this Sacrement be exempt from this rule?  In other words, if
>confession is required to be saved, how can anyone who doesn't subject
>themself to it be saved?
>
>Am I going around in circles here?  I think so.  The basic question is
>"Is confession necessary for salvation?".  If the answer is "Yes," then
>I don't understand how anyone can reject the sacrement and still be saved.
>If, however, a clear conscience concerning the sacrement is what justifies
>one before God, confession itself is not necessary, but a clear conscience
>is.

   Here is an analogy.  "Is Baptism necessary for salvation?"  If yes,
then does that mean anyone who dies unbaptized goes to hell?  What the
Catholic Church teaches is that there is a "Baptism of desire" for
those who, through no fault of their own, may not have had a chance to
be baptized before dying, but who would have been baptized if they had
had the chance.

   If you understand this, apply it to Confession and I think it will
make things clearer.

>In short, it seems like the Catholic church is drawing a line between
>Catholic christians and non-Catholic christians.  Everyone who is a non-CC
>is exempt from this particular Catholic teaching.  But everyone who is a CC
>is not.  My point is that this renders the teaching meaningless except as a
>means of social manipulation.  It has no real spiritual value because non-CC's
>can deny the authority of the Catholic church and still be saved.

   But they cannot be saved as easily!

>However,
>catholics must accept this authority or risk giving up their salvation.
>This is a common cultic practice called sensationalism.  Its intent is to
>keep people in a social cult by means of intimidation. (See
>_Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control_, Steven Hassan, Park Street Press, 1990).

   Not at all.  It is Christ's will that Confession be done as it is.
Christ could just as easily have said, "Here is the gate of Heaven.
It is My will that you enter Heaven by taking the bus that comes
through this gate."  If someone does not know that Christ said it was
His will (even if it's because that person won't believe those who do
know), that doesn't mean he will be condemned.  On the other hand,
someone who _does_ know, but just doesn't feel like going through that
gate, is in big trouble.  I like the analogy that Catholics are those
who board Christ's bus, but Protestants don't think the bus is
Christ's, or else would prefer to drive their own cars through the
gate.

>Now I am not wanting to suggest that the Catholic church is a mind control
>cult.  I know people who I believe to be true christians who are also
>Catholic.  I know a man who has a powerful ministry and who is a Catholic.
>However, if these things you're telling me are true, then the only
>conclusion I can come to is that the Catholic church does in fact
>facilitate the use of mind control techniques!  Does God use these same
>techniques???  If so, I think we're in BIG trouble!

   I don't think I would call it mind control techniques, but what
about when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son to Him?  God didn't
have to have a reason for this.  But if Abraham had refused, knowing
that he was disobeying God, what would have happened?  Perhaps God
wants obedience, and for us to do things His way, not ours.

>>On your other question on additional Grace, a priest is a tool of God's
>>word, just as any minister.  He is a "father figure" to give advice on
>>spiritual matters based on the doctrine of the Church and will pose into
>>words the forgiveness of God when we ask for it.  Being a representative of
>>God, a priest CANNOT look down upon the person asking forgiveness nor
>>repeat anything said to him.
>
>So then what's the difference between a Catholic priest and a Protestant
>minister.  The latter can also perform all of these tasks!

   The difference is one of authority.  A Catholic priest has the
authority given by Christ through the Apostles.  A Protestant minister
does not have this authority that comes through Apostolic Succession.
In other words, a Catholic priest has the authority of a divine
institution; a Protestant minister has only the authority of a human
institution.  I don't wish to argue this point in this thread; I'm
just answering from the Catholic perspective.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu