From: uunet!mailrus!gatech!mit-eddie!meshugge.media.mit.edu!cindy@ncar.ucar.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: approach
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:00:44 GMT
	<CINDY.92Jul24120017@meshugge.media.mit.edu>
	<159pauINNc5e@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory

JOHN (MAX) SKALLER WRITES:

[Cindy Blank-Edelman writes:]

>>I believe that polite approaches to women to ask them out for a date
>>would not be construed as harrassing most of the time.  The problem
>>arises (I think) when such an approach takes place in an
>>inappropriate setting -- at work, or from a teacher to a student.

>         Is this an example of women trying to preserve their sexual
>dominance? Whats wrong with an approach at work? I mean, since men
>traditionally spend so much time at work, and that is where they
>might meet women, why disbar conversation that happens to be
>personal?

>         I dont think there are inappropriate places to meet people,
>you meet them whever you go. And often the opportunities are
>fleeting.

While work might be an appropriate place to meet somebody, it may not
be an appropriate place to make sexual advances.  I don't know what
"sexual dominance" you are talking about.  I would say that too much
of the time, men making sexual advances to women at work is an attempt
to preserve their workplace dominance.

>         And why specify "romance"? The biggest myth of all time.
>The sooner the oppressive Romantic myth is exploded, and its
>stereotypes exposed, the sooner we can begin to really communicate.

I am understanding "romance" today to have progressed beyond the "man
pursuing woman" thing.  I am thinking of loving, intimate
relationships where the partners are equal.  Perhaps "romance" carries
negative connotations from the past, but that is not how I meant it.

>>In arenas like these where women are still fighting to be taken
>>seriously, it would be much more difficult to indicate a romantic
>>interest without harrassment.

>         Do you mean sexual interest? Oh, and if I just say I'm
>interested in you, how can that possibly be harrassment?  Even if
>you're not feeling like talking to me, I have to be persistent to
>harrass you, surely.

I said it would be *more difficult*.  An honest, straightforward, and
polite approach may not be construed as harrassing.  But little
flirtations or innuendo, while they might not be problematic in other
settings, can be harrassing at work.

>         I think these are cases where women feel uncomfortable with
>their sexual dominance. So here is a case where being dominant is not
>an advantage.

Again, I don't know what you are talking about.  As a woman, I
certainly don't *feel* sexually dominant.

>>Certainly, in these settings a man should take a "no" to be final,
>>and not continue to approach the woman romantically.

>         Why? How do you dare to tell me I must accept womens
>traditional power base as final and absolute after invading *mens*
>traditional power base (the work place).

I don't understand.  Do you see a sexual relationship between a man
and a woman as a man's invading a woman's traditional power base?
Wouldn't it be a better world without these "power bases"?  Men and
women should respect each other at the workplace, and in
relationships.  If a woman says "no" to a man at work, the respectful
thing for the man to do is to assume that she is not interested in
him.  If that situation changes, it will be up to the woman to make
her interest known.

>         People change their minds. Women traditionally say "no"
>automatically, even if they're interested.  Dont forget that in the
>"romantic" myth, it is the persistence of the Knight that finally
>wins the Maiden's hand (or is it something else than her hand :-)

If you want to do away with the "romantic" myth, then men have to stop
trying to "win" women and start respecting them.  NO MEANS NO.  Men
have to believe women when they say "no", and women have to mean it.
I am sure many date-rapists just thought they were being "persistent".

>>I also think that not all women expect to be asked out anymore, and
>>many do the asking themselves.

>  They *have* to. Men are too scared to ask them :-)

Frankly, your portrayal of heterosexual relationships is a great
argument for lesbianism. :-)

--Cindy Blank-Edelman

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