HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: logier@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au (Rob Logie)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Australia's "foreign" debt...
Date: 15 Oct 92 03:55:13 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Telecom Australia, TNE Computer Support Services

chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) writes:
Stuff deleted

>So what happened to that potential pool of funds? Well, people like
>you and me ran it up on our Bankcards and on home mortgages and
>all sorts of worthwhile purposes (call it consumption if you like).
>The other symptom of this problem is that small (and riskier) enterprises
>in Australia can't raise either equity or debt finance for their
>activities at reasonable rates or at all.

>In other words, you can't blame the massive foreign debt on those
>corporate cowboys alone. Everyone has to take responsibility for
>the problem. If we all stopped pointing the finger and started
>consuming less and saving more we could go a long way toward fixing
>Australia's foreign debt problems as well as its competitiveness.
>If you don't do it voluntarily, one or another future government will
>tax it out of you instead - but the result may not be as good.

>Chris

>PS Consuming less would help the environment too.
>PPS Call it "lowered standard of living" if you like.
>-- 
>Chris Maltby - Softway Pty Ltd		Internet: chris@softway.sw.oz.au

>PHONE:	+61-2-698-2322	"I'm waiting for X-Windows to become just that;
>FAX:	+61-2-699-9174	 Ex-Windows" - A McGrath.


Wouldn't it be nice if the government cut the taxation on savings to encourage
people to save.  I believe that this is/was the case in Japan, with the 
resulting good economic growth.

Also, wouldn't it be nice if there was venture capital avaliable in Australia
so that people could develope new technology and bring it to market in a 
reasonable time frame.  

Who knows, if these sorts of things happened, Australia may not wind up the
"Third World Country" it is rapidly heading towards.



-- 
Rob Logie,   Telecom Australia    | The opions expressed are mine alone and in
           ( A.C.N. 051 775 556 ) | no-way reflect the views or policies of the
NWPD-NE Computer Support Services | Australian and Overseas Telecommunications
EMAIL: logier@cheops.qld.tne.oz.au| Corporation. "These are my opinions alone"
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby)
Subject: Australia's "foreign" debt...
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Distribution: aus
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:54:00 GMT

Many people point out that a majority of our borrowings from outside
Australia are held by the private sector, especially the larger
corporations (or what remains of them). Without passing a judgement
on the uses of those funds, it is also fair to say that the borrowings
would have been made in Australia if there had been the pool of funds
available to do it.

So what happened to that potential pool of funds? Well, people like
you and me ran it up on our Bankcards and on home mortgages and
all sorts of worthwhile purposes (call it consumption if you like).
The other symptom of this problem is that small (and riskier) enterprises
in Australia can't raise either equity or debt finance for their
activities at reasonable rates or at all.

In other words, you can't blame the massive foreign debt on those
corporate cowboys alone. Everyone has to take responsibility for
the problem. If we all stopped pointing the finger and started
consuming less and saving more we could go a long way toward fixing
Australia's foreign debt problems as well as its competitiveness.
If you don't do it voluntarily, one or another future government will
tax it out of you instead - but the result may not be as good.

Chris

PS Consuming less would help the environment too.
PPS Call it "lowered standard of living" if you like.
-- 
Chris Maltby - Softway Pty Ltd		Internet: chris@softway.sw.oz.au

PHONE:	+61-2-698-2322	"I'm waiting for X-Windows to become just that;
FAX:	+61-2-699-9174	 Ex-Windows" - A McGrath.
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Monash University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 05:24:12 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.002908.24713@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:
>Yes, Government debt used to finance assets should be considered in the same
>way as any debt used to finance any asset, regardless of who the owner is.  The
>thing that's so special about new right (laissez-faire) economists saying that
>there should be no Government debt is that they think there should be no
>Government assets either.  This is the thin end of the wedge to saying there
>should be virtually no Government at all.
Talk about putting up straw opponents!
>
>The "no Government debt" idea leads to ridiculous notions such as the public
>sector borrowing requirement, PSBR, that the Federal Government forces on State
>Goverments and Government Business enterprises.  This politically based
>requirement has to be satisfied regardless of whether the debt is used to
>finance a good investment asset or not.  The Victorian Government's sell-off
>and lease-back of railway stock was prompted by having to satisfy the PSBR even
>though this was a terrible investment strategy.
Can you prove that the lease-bask was so prompted and that they
had no other reasonable solution?
>
>I think there is one similarity when it comes to borrowing to buy a house.  I
>think most people understand that this is an economically sound form of
>borrowing.
I generally agree that borrowing to buy a house is OFTEN a sound
idea (the recent boom and high interest rate period aside). HOWEVER,
the basic reason it is a sound proposition is that you can reach a situation
where your repayments are at or below the cost to rent (which is
the only other alternative). Coupled with this is
the expectation, not as often fullfilled as most
people seem to think, that the rate of increase in value
(minus cost of rates/maintenance) will outperform most
other "safe" investments. However, let's not get sidetracked onto personal
finance.
 There is no direct translate in government borrowings (i.e., the government
spendings are more discretionary - *I* have to live somewhere.) Moreover,
the fact remains that I and others HAD to put off buying until we thought
we were in a position to handle the mortgage. If I thought the govt
was handling it's debt similarly then I wouldn't be complaining!

However, we digress. I really think it's funny we have so
many apologists for the past govt when they themselves
have admitted they completely stuffed up on this score.
I still haven't had any offers of anyone compensating me
for my share of the debt (or even of the interest payments) :-).
d.s.
-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:10:33 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.044523.705@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.023906.20628@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris
O'Neill) writes:
>>What do you think all the sell-offs are for?  Of course, the sensible time
for
>I know what they SHOULD be for - but how much debt did Kirner retire
>(or even look like retiring)? You touch on just why I am even more
>angry with Kirner - DESPITE massive sell-offs (and often lease 
>back arrangements) debt continued to GROW.

Well this is a recession.  You should be angry with Cain and Jolley for not
taking the opportunity to reduce debt during the boom years.  Instead of
reducing debt they avoided increasing taxes (unlike in N.S.W).  Yes that was a
mistake but a very common one.  Even now the Federal parties on both sides want
to repeat it with tax cuts in 1993/94.

> The true magnitude of their
>binge has been relatively hidden and the tip of the iceberg itself
>(i.e. the net debt they admitted to) is, even by itself, an indictment.
>If you don't agree then I gues we'll have to leave it at that. I notice
>you're not exactly saying you're happy you're at least $16k in debt
>through the ex-govt, and that more than 1 in 6 of your tax dollars
>going to the state govt is being pissed down the drain in interest payments

Haven't you ever borrowed money to buy a house?

Chris O'Neill
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:25:21 GMT

In article <miw.718423748@cc.uq.oz.au> miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams)
writes:
>c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:
>>  There must be some reason why the Australian
>>dollar is the world's fourth or fifth most traded currency.
>

>The Australian dollar is *sometimes* highly traded, because we are one
>of the few countries with (a) a highly resource and commodity-based
>economy  

The trade in Australian dollars is something like 50 times as much as is needed
to transfer from importers to exporters which includes all the resource and
commodity exporters.

(b) status as a nett energy exporter. and (c) leaders who don't
>spend a large amount of their time eating the carpets. In other words,
>the Australian dollar looks good when most other hard currencies look
>bad, and it looks bad when the others look good. Lots of Europeans see
>it as a 'safe haven' currency.

Chris O'Neill
From: s924683@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU ( Chandi )
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Australian military air show & arms
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:47:18 GMT
Distribution: cs

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>In article <996200275@peg.pegasus.oz.au> adamt@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>>    2. Participate in the activites of the next two weeks.
>So we're going to have another example of the minority
>trying to enforce their view on the majority? Another
>bout of "peaceful" protestors violently demonstrating?


  I am really getting sick to death of these groups like International 
  Socialists who ahppen to think they represent the working calss...
  which they happen to think is about 80% of all the people on earth..
  (i.e. 80% is International Social. Supporters)....

  If they think they have such a mandate from the people the disrupt
  events such as Overseas presidential visits, Arms exibitions, Studnet Demos
  or for taht matter any thing else... Why dont they run for government..

   IF you get 80% of the vote U can do any thing U want....
  
  And in response to this article please please dont use the copout that
  all media is cappitalist, ie we cannot win government etc etc...
 
----- chandi
>d.s.
>-- 
>David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
>Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
>Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
>ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
From: brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Date: 12 Oct 92 23:01:20 GMT

You're all forgetting one VERY important thing in this debate.  Reality.

All your arguments for and against GST may come to naught, because even if
Dr. J is elected, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that he will control the Senate,
and the Democrats have indicated that they will not support a GST, al least
not one that taxes "the necessities of life" (whatever they are).

So, if legistlation to abolish wholesale sales tax and replace it with a GST
cannot be passed by the Senate, the entire Fightback! package falls apart at
the seams because the entire premise of Fightback! is that all the other so
called "goodies" are funded, mostly, by the 15% GST.

In which case, we need to ask ourselves:  what policies do the Liberals have
besides Fightback!?  They've put all their eggs in one basket - we really need
to consider whether we may be faced with a policy vacuum only one month in
to a Hewson Government.

Politics is all about compromise, pragmatism, and hastening slowly.  It is
also more than economics and extremely narrow definitions of social
responsibilities.  It worries me that Dr. J seems to understand none of these
(or maybe its just his posturing).

IMHO Hewson has adopted a very risky and ultimately politically naive set of
policies.  He knows that there is very little chance of a GST becoming law,
and yet he has not offered us any inkling of what might happen when Fightback!
stalls on the starter's grid.

-- 
Brendan Jones  | ACSnet:  brendan@otc.otca.oz.au               | This space
R&D Contractor |   UUCP:  {uunet,mcvax}!otc.otca.oz.au!brendan | for lease
Network Access |  Phone:  (02)287-3128    Fax:  (02)287-3299   | pending new
|||| OTC ||    |  Snail:  GPO Box 7000 Sydney 2001, AUSTRALIA  | .sig
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Australian military air show & arms
Organization: Monash University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:37:19 GMT

In article <996200275@peg.pegasus.oz.au> adamt@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:
>
>Aerospace '92 is a trade show of aeronautic equipment that is
>70-80% military, although this will be reduced to 40% on the 
>weekend, when it is open to the public.
>
>In difficult economic times, military manufacturing is seen
>as a potential growth industry for Australia.
>Sales in the Asia-Pacific region are increasing at %10 per annum,
>and some Australians want a piece of this cake.
>
>Do you want Australia to be part of this murderous industry?
Well, obviously, if you colour the question with the term murderous
then the answer is no. However, I and the majority of Australians
do want us to have a viable defence capability. Part of a viable
defence capability is being somewhat self-sufficiant in arms.
Hence we need to have a defence industry. 
>What can you do? 
Go along and see the show.
>
>    1. Publicise your views.
Just have.
>    2. Participate in the activites of the next two weeks.
So we're going to have another example of the minority
trying to enforce their view on the majority? Another
bout of "peaceful" protestors violently demonstrating?

d.s.
-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Monash University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:07:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.074458.14065@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.052412.13649@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
(in relation to the analogy between individuals taking out a mortgage
and the govt borrowings:
>> There is no direct translate in government borrowings (i.e., the government
>>spendings are more discretionary - *I* have to live somewhere.)
>
>Yes, they could close the schools and hospitals down for a while.
I don't accept that this would have been their only alternative.
However, IF I DO (which you seem to have) accept this then it
further proves my point. If they have got us into such a situation
where thier finances are so parlous that closing schools
and hospitals is the only alternative to debt increases,
then the prosecution rests (thanks Chris).
d.s.

-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 05:52:32 GMT

gantony@metz.une.edu.au (George Antony) writes:

>Well, not quite.  If the government of the day had acted in a consistently 
>counter-cyclical way (instead of amplifying the cyclical effects), the outset, 
>depth and length of the recession could have been different.  It is worth 
>noting that this recession was much worse in English-speaking developed 
>countries than, e.g., in places such as France.  And yes, a more cautious 

I don't know if you can say that yet. Certainly the recession came forst
to Australia, and next to the UK and the US, but the recession really
hasn't started to bite on the continent yet (except in Italy, where it
is already a good deal worse than in oz at any time).

I really don't know why people think Australia was hit so hard by the
recession. Australia's economic figures have been consistantly better
than most of the rest of the OECD.

cheers,


--
Mark Williams         The University of Queensland       miw@cc.uq.edu.au
+61 7 36 54012   (w)  Prentice Centre
+61 7 36 54477  (fax) Qld 4072  Australia
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.  -- Seneca
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Monash University
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:28:11 GMT

In article <3315@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> jcollier@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier) writes:
>In <3314@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> cm@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Charles Meo) writes:
>
>>One fact you might consider is that 65% of the external debt is in PRIVATE
>>hands, and has nothing to do with the government. This is the fruit of another
>>'binge'--the stupid takeovers of the eighties, and now we see bankruptcies 
>>where they should be, with the scumbags who did all that stuff. 
>
>That is a good point. One thing I like about Australia is that the
And you call yourself a philosopher! This is totally irrelevant
to the argument in hand. 
d.s.

-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Monash University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 04:45:23 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.023906.20628@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:
>What do you think all the sell-offs are for?  Of course, the sensible time for
I know what they SHOULD be for - but how much debt did Kirner retire
(or even look like retiring)? You touch on just why I am even more
angry with Kirner - DESPITE massive sell-offs (and often lease 
back arrangements) debt continued to GROW. The true magnitude of their
binge has been relatively hidden and the tip of the iceberg itself
(i.e. the net debt they admitted to) is, even by itself, an indictment.
If you don't agree then I gues we'll have to leave it at that. I notice
you're not exactly saying you're happy you're at least $16k in debt
through the ex-govt, and that more than 1 in 6 of your tax dollars
going to the state govt is being pissed down the drain in interest payments
while a further x dollars in 6 is going to lease the rolling stock
and other items they sold and agreed to lease back a very favourable
terms to the other parties. I admit that I'm just guessing, but
I think it likely that up to 30% of their revenue is wasted on servicing the
debt and on paying those lease agreements - it not just
the size of the debt itself! 

d.s.
-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
From: dyfl@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Daniel Y Lam)
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:12:30 GMT

brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones) writes:
>All your arguments for and against GST may come to naught, because even if
>Dr. J is elected, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that he will control the Senate,
>and the Democrats have indicated that they will not support a GST, al least
>not one that taxes "the necessities of life" (whatever they are).

Well, they can have a double dissolution.


--
	Daniel Lam
	Melbourne, Australia

In my opinion, the opinions expressed here are my personal opinions.
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: mrj@cs.su.oz.au (Mark James)
Subject: Re: Australia's "foreign" debt...
Reply-To: mrj@cs.su.oz.au (Mark James)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 07:05:15 GMT

In article <chris.719034840@suite.sw.oz.au> chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) writes:
>
>In other words, you can't blame the massive foreign debt on those
>corporate cowboys alone. Everyone has to take responsibility for
>the problem. If we all stopped pointing the finger and started
>consuming less and saving more we could go a long way toward fixing
>Australia's foreign debt problems as well as its competitiveness.
>If you don't do it voluntarily, one or another future government will
>tax it out of you instead - but the result may not be as good.

The corporate cowboys should get most of the blame because if the
funds they borrowed were used wisely (generated a level of exports or
import replacement greater that their interest bill), the fact that
the capital was imported would matter little.  (Even investment in
productive non-export replacing industries is not too bad.)

Increasing our savings ratio has the disadvantage of deferring
consumption, which is dangerous in a recession.  However, considering
our huge foreign debt and the fact that the large capital inflows
overvalue our dollar, harming exporters, saving more would
probably be the best move.  It means a drop in current standard of
living --  but we are living beyond our means!

What is the best way to encourage savings?  The Labor Party
always baulks at doing anything to avoid accusations that they
are giving people with invested wealth (especially inherited)
a free ride.  Remember the Liberals under Peacock looked at
this in late 1989 and decided that it couldn't easily be done.
Anyone seen the advice given to him (Access Economics I think)?

Does anyone have workable ideas to encourage savings?  The GST has
the potential, but inequitable compensation rules out Hewson's model
(in my eyes at least).  Will superannuation do the job?

Mark James                                   |  EMAIL : mrj@cs.su.oz.au  |
Basser Department of Computer Science, F09   |  PHONE : +61-2-692-4276   |
The University of Sydney NSW 2006 AUSTRALIA  |  FAX   : +61-2-692-3838   |
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: farrell@coral.cs.jcu.edu.au (John Farrell)
Subject: Re: Reply to comments on the Free Speech Thread
Organization: James Cook University
Date:  8 Oct 92 05:48:49 GMT

In <miw.718504760@cc.uq.oz.au> miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams) writes:
>Distribute "Friendless reads League Week."

  I shall be suing you Mr Williams, as soon as I find an honest lawyer to
represent me.

Friendless
Newsgroups: aus.politics