HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: A favor....
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:31:52 GMT

No, I don't think it's like a bend fracted. It's a field division, not an 
ordinary. I think Francois is right on here.

(And it's obvious that I'm just going to have to go and get a copy of
Woodward's for myself. I have been aware of it for a while, but didn't
know exactly how neat it is.)

Andrea habura

(and thanks!)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: ruler-and-compass shields?
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:51:22 GMT


 SS> A few years back I read a book on heraldic design which included ruler
    and compass constructions for drawing well-proportioned shields.
    Unfortunately I cannot remember the title or author of this book. I'd
    like to figure out how to do this again.  The author had two shapes;
    one of them the standard "iron-shaped" pointy shield, and the other
    squarer (the kind you might want to use for drawing quarterly arms, for
    example).  I've managed to rediscover the iron-shaped construction, but
    I can't remember how to get the other shape. Does anybody know how to
    do this?

 Depends on how square it is. One way would be to make the straight part of
 the sides of the shield one half the width, instead of the standard one
 third, before starting the arcs. Another would be to draw essentially a
 square, with fillet corners on the bottom (about half or a third of the
 width of that quarter ought to do) and an arc on the "point" of an
 equivalent radius.

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: What is this group for?
Date: 5 Jan 93 12:05:17 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:



>Actually even you, Francois, cannot be entirely sure you have no nobility in
>the family tree, from "the wrong side of the blanket". Given the old practice
>of droit de signeur (sp?)

I assume that this is what is usually called the jus primae noctis in this
country. Different encyclopedias (sp?) have different opinions on this,
they range from "probably a legend" to "might have been practised in certain
parts of Spain."

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: What is this group for?
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:40:37 GMT

Katherine Merle Mason writes:
  This is an interesting question.  In my study of geneaology, I have found
  that everyone of European descent seems to be able to claim descent from
  a minor peer or at least a member of the gentry.  This does not necessarily
  mean that these people are nobles, but it does say something about the 
  kind of people who are generally attracted to heraldry and geneaology.

Or that the people you have contact with have self-selected that way.
Those, like myself, who found an interest in heraldry through the SCA,
are interested in heraldry and onomastics (and to a very much lesser
extent, geneaology) for very different reasons.

Another things to consider, is that for those folks whose European
Ancestry is of non-noble or differing classes, there is little
geneaology to work with.  For example, people of German Jewish
descent did not take consistent surnames until the early 1800s when
required to by law.  That makes geneaology difficult.

(Two gentleman named Schuldenfrei met about 13 years ago, in Florida.
They became convinced that they had to be related, although neither
had any known relatives in common.  They traced the family backwards
to three brothers (and an unknown quantity of sisters) with a common,
unnamed father, in what is today German-speaking Poland.  An
extremely serendipitous photograph of a statue in a graveyard provided
the headstone that was needed to find that ancestor.  But he was
the one who took that name: they were stymied.  Now, if only we knew
for sure which of two possible meanings of the name was intended...)

	schuldy/Mark Schuldenfrei
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: What is this group for?
Date: 5 Jan 93 07:21:46 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Dec29.155739.27343@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu>,
bnostran@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir) writes:
|>distributing heraldic discussions in rec.org.sca as they will then be
|>disseminated to exactly the same sites as rec.heraldry.

Except that rec.org.sca goes out as the SCA digest to the usenet-less in
the world.
            
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: A favor....
Date: 11 Jan 1993 17:06:57 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <1isnveINNclq@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> I write:
>
>OK. First, it is a partition, so it separates the field in two regions,
>the left one is gules, the right is argent. That partition starts in
>the upper-left corner, and ends in the lower-right corner. But, instead
>of going in a straight line (in the south-east direction), it starts 
>off in that direction, then switches toward the lower *left* corner,
>then switches back toward the lower right corner. Or: it is a line 
>in three pieces. 

I made an incorrect drawing; this one corresponds better to my verbal 
description.


  	------------
	|\ 	   |
	| \ 	   |
	|  \	   |
	|   \	   |
	|    \	   |
	|    /     |
	|   /      |
	|   \      |
	|     \    |
	|       \  |
	------------
-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: damour@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher Damour)
Subject: Wallachian Eagle
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:39:04 GMT

A friend of mine is looking for information on what a Wallachian Eagle looked
like in heraldry.  I believe that he is interested circa 1300-1500 A.D.  Does
anyone out there have an idea?
Thank you,
Chris
*****************************************************************************
damour@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu     |  Christopher D. Damour
                               |  348 Parkway Court East
                               |  Martinez, GA 30907-1555
                               |  (706) 791-2397 (Work) (706) 855-1169 (Home)
                               |-------------------------------------------
                               |  Instant person, just add Coffee!
                               |
                               |
*********************Wheew!  I'm glad that's done!**************************
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: What is this group for?
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:16:56 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.120517.26755@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:

>>Actually even you, Francois, cannot be entirely sure you have no nobility in
>>the family tree, from "the wrong side of the blanket". Given the old practice
>>of droit de signeur (sp?)
>
>I assume that this is what is usually called the jus primae noctis in this
>country. Different encyclopedias (sp?) have different opinions on this,
>they range from "probably a legend" to "might have been practised in certain
>parts of Spain."

As far as I know, the Ius Primae Noctis was actually practised during the
Dark Ages, but was extremely scorned upon by clergy, and was dropped out via
evolution of the thing we call chivalry, before year 1100. 

Still, f***ing with the female servants has always been a common pastime with
the masters everywhere in the world (even today with bosses and secretaries)
and before the era of contraceptives oooopses were common. It has been estim-
ated, that although "pure" nobles are today quite rare (old families tend to
die out and no new ones are created), about some 20% of the people of Europe
had _some_ blue blood in their veins.

I'm not sure, though.

--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++
From: habura@vccnw04.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: A favor....
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:30:53 GMT

Folks, I've been doing some research into regional armory, and I wonder if 
any of you can help me out with the following blazon terms:

Tranche failli and tailland and retranche: This is one of the funky German
field divisions, and this phrase describes a per fess line. There are no
charges on the field. "Tranche" means "per bend" in French blazon, and 
"tailland" is "per bend sinister". "Failli" has a group of Modern French
meanings centering on "bankrupt, lacking"; "retranche" means "cut off" in
Modern French. I have an intuition, however, that "retranche" here means
"and again per bend", which would make this a sort of super-indented line
leaning over in a bendwise direction.

Entravailles: "entrave" means "shackles" in Modern French. Any ideas?

Enchaussure: "Enchausser" is a French verb meaning "to straw up", which makes
me think that this is either a sheaf of wheat or a haystack. However, the
French words for these objects are not even remotely similar. The word may be
related to the French blazonry term "chausse'". 

Retrait: I'm pretty sure this means "couped", but can't prove it.


If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. (I'm actually feeling prety proud of
myself; I figured out "emache", "a plomb", and "mit einer lincken stufe"). 

Thanks...

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: ruler-and-compass shields?
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:43:22 GMT

In article <SIERRA.93Jan5165350@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> sierra@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Sue Sierra) writes:
>A few years back I read a book on heraldic design which included ruler and
>compass constructions for drawing well-proportioned shields.  Unfortunately
>I cannot remember the title or author of this book.  I'd like to figure out
>how to do this again.  The author had two shapes; one of them the standard
>"iron-shaped" pointy shield, and the other squarer (the kind you might
>want to use for drawing quarterly arms, for example).  I've managed to
>rediscover the iron-shaped construction, but I can't remember how to get
>the other shape.  Does anybody know how to do this?
>

It might be "Heraldic Design" or "Heraldic Design for Artists and
Craftsmen" (of course I've forgotten the names of the authors). I also
remember seeing something like that in the Dover book "Design your own
coat of arms". The Dover book is cheap and readily available. The others
might be available at you library or thru-Inter-Library Loan.

Tom \|/
     0


From: Rich.Taylor@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Rich Taylor)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Summary: Flags, actually
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:49:01 GMT

The Czech Republic has adopted the Czechoslovak flag for itself, instead of
the pre-independePoland-lookalike. This was a Good Thing IMg IMHO, as the
blue field may be construed to represent Moravia.

The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
Russia, who have plain white-blue-redRussia, who have plain white-blue-red. ;-)

tsahib.
-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."
From: leeu@nobeltech.se (Leif Euren)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: A favor....
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:01:14 GMT
Organization: NobelTech AB

In article <1is3udINNd7l@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>				 Chape' is a partition consisting of two
>lines, starting both from the same point in the middle of the top of
>the shield, and going down sideways, one to the left and the other to the
>right.

Excuse me, but I don't really grasp this partition.  If it is what I
think, than I've seen it blazoned "per chevron enhanced", i.e. a
per-chevron partition with the apex at the top edge of the shield. Am
I right or wrong?  Please enlighten me!

 __  __ 
|  \   |  All opinions are my own, even if my employer claims otherwise!
|   \  |
|      |	Leif Euren			NobelTech Systems AB
|  \   |	System Manager Rational  	S-175 88 JARFALLA
|__ \__|	tel: +46-8-58084072		Sweden
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: Stefan.Kiesow@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Stefan Kiesow)
Subject: What to do?
Organization: University of Oldenburg, Germany
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:28:28 GMT

Hello!

I need some in in studying my ancestors!

My cousin got everything about my mum's ancestors, but I want
to receive information about my dad's.

We were able to follow through the time only for  2 family-parts (my
grandpa and my old-grandpa).

In my opinion, it is too difficult to find out more, because my dad came
to Germany during the World War 2. He lived in Pommern, which belonged
to Germany in that time.

If anybody could tell me how  to go on to receive detailled information
about my acestors, I would be very pleased.

Thanks for your help,

Stefan.
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: sierra@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Sue Sierra)
Subject: ruler-and-compass shields?
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:53:50 GMT
Distribution: rec
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

A few years back I read a book on heraldic design which included ruler and
compass constructions for drawing well-proportioned shields.  Unfortunately
I cannot remember the title or author of this book.  I'd like to figure out
how to do this again.  The author had two shapes; one of them the standard
"iron-shaped" pointy shield, and the other squarer (the kind you might
want to use for drawing quarterly arms, for example).  I've managed to
rediscover the iron-shaped construction, but I can't remember how to get
the other shape.  Does anybody know how to do this?

--Sue Sierra
sierra@cs.oberlin.edu
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Wallachian Eagle
Date: 7 Jan 1993 12:57:03 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <C0Gq16.7H3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> damour@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher Damour) writes:
>A friend of mine is looking for information on what a Wallachian Eagle looked
>like in heraldry.  I believe that he is interested circa 1300-1500 A.D.  Does
>anyone out there have an idea?

I don't know if this helps. Here are the arms of the kingdom of Rumania (back
when it was a kingdom, of course), lifted from Woodward's p.667:
Quarterly: 1. Azure, an eagle displayed, holding a sceptre, sword, and cross,
in dexter chief a sun or (Wallachia); 2. Gules, a bull's head caboshed [i.e.
full-faced and showing no part of the neck], between its horns a star, and in
sinister chief a crescent or (Moldavia); 3. Gules, on an open crown a lion 
rampant crowned and holding a star or; 4. Azure, two dolphins affrontes, heads
in base, tails in chief. Over all Hohenzollern (quarterly, Argent and sable).

I thought I had seen somewhere that Wallachia also used a double-headed eagle,
but I am not sure at all.
-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde)
Subject: Re: But Solvieg,
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:10:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.130646.4721@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>a Castilian style coat of arms. Yes, I admit that there is one conflict
>with the tinctures' law: bordure of color next to another color, but I have
>two excuses I am going to use if the apply is repulsed: 1) bordure is a
>typical Castilian feature and 2) the tinctures' rule does not generally apply
>on bordures or other surmounted ordinaries, even in the Anglo-French heraldry.

Witness the Anjou mark of cadence (a bordure gules next to France's azure
field). The Touraine cadence is a bordure compony argent and gules.  Perfectly
legitimate heraldry, from a respectable family. One of the oldest arms in
France is Burgundy Ancient: bendy of 6, or and azure, a bordure gules.

>What are the blazons of the arms of the newborn Balkan countries ?

I had a post on this recently. Should I repost?

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:27:34 GMT

In article <1993Jan05.182134.132218@evolving.com> jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writes:
>velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde) writes:
>: * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a crescent 
>: 	trefoiled and a crosslet argent.
>
>1.  How do you depict a crown or against a field or?  Is it outlined sable?

Beats me. I suppose you would. I double-checked to make sure: in Woodward's,
page 500, Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sabel crowned of the field".

>2.  What is a crescent "trefoiled"?

Same source, page 706: "trefoiled: as applied to a cross, denotes that its 
arms terminate in trefoils; as applied to another Ordinary, it denotes that
it is edged with trefoils." Trefoil comes from the Latin trifolium, three-leaf.
The French call it tre`fle.

>3.  Is this "crosslet" the same as a "cross crosslet" in English; that is,
>    a cross each of whose four arms has a short cross-piece?

Same source, p.682: "crosslet: a diminutive of the cross." It just means here
a small cross, placed on top of the crescent in the latter's middle part (on
the breast of the eagle).

-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnw13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:04:34 GMT

Fr. John asks about the arms of Silesia.

The crown: I imagine it is outlined. (It should also slightly change the 
outline of the eagle's head, which would help draw attention to it. I'm sure
this isn't a unique example; crowns on beasts frequently break tincture 
against the field.)

The crescent: Dollars to doughnuts the crescent merely has trefoils issuing 
from the two horns. This would make it a hybrid form between a crescent
and klee-stengeln, which is pretty easy to believe.

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: A favor....
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:51:13 GMT

Francois Velde writes:
  I made an incorrect drawing; this one corresponds better to my verbal 
  description.

  	------------
	|\ 	   |
	| \ 	   |
	|  \	   |
	|   \	   |
	|    \	   |
	|    /     |
	|   /      |
	|   \      |
	|     \    |
	|       \  |
	------------

It's difficult to tell, but is this similar to what I've seen called
a bend fracted?

	schuldy
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: A favor....
Date: 11 Jan 1993 16:14:22 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <11JAN93.20082368@skyfox> boyko@skyfox writes:
>I have a small question about your descriptions: how would "tranche
>failli en taillant et retranche" differ from a fess or bar
>dancettee?

You might think of that blazon as similar to "per bend dancetty, gules 
and argent".  From what I understand, dancetty indicates that the partition
line is indented, but with a small number of indentations, i.e. 3 or less.
"tranche failli en tranchant et retranche" would be a dancetty partition line
with only 1 indentation.

>    I am having a bit of trouble picturing that french blazon,
>even after your description. probably my fault.

OK. First, it is a partition, so it separates the field in two regions,
the left one is gules, the right is argent. That partition starts in
the upper-left corner, and ends in the lower-right corner. But, instead
of going in a straight line (in the south-east direction), it starts 
off in that direction, then switches toward the lower *left* corner,
then switches back toward the lower right corner. Or: it is a line 
in three pieces. 

  	------------
	|\ 	   |
	| \ 	   |
	|  \	   |
	|   \	   |
	|    \	   |
	|  ----	   |
	|   \      |
	|     \    |
	|       \  |
	------------

-- 

	Francois Velde
From: 89b0016@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Czech and Slovak arms
Date: 11 Jan 93 14:49:08 +1000
Organization: UNSW School of Accounting

In article <1993Jan5.232204.1671@nntp.hut.fi>, c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
...
> I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
> colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
> deny or confirm this ?
....

Actually, red, white and blue aren't so much the colours of the Slavic peoples
as the colours of the Pan-Slavic Movement, which was inititated around
1848 and flourished during the latter half of the 19th century, when most 
Slavic countries were bound up as vassals, dominions, colonies of others'
empires (Serbia, Montenegro and Russia being the exceptions). Thus, the
independence movements of the early 20th century gave rise to most of the
ex-Yugoslav nations adopting red, white and blue, as did Slovakia and 
Serbo-Lusatian national consciousness. I am not sure whether Russia followed 
or inspired the colours. I know that the Polish colours (white and red) are
independent of this, stemming from a story about a sunset and a white eagle,
but am not sure what the history of Bohemia's colours are. As I understand
it, Bohemia (or "the Czech lands", for English-language-manglers) had a red
and white flag just after WWI, and just before the Czechoslovak flag was
devised for the federation by including a blue triangle for Slovakia. Anyone
confirm the Bohemian colours ?

The main exceptions to the red-white-blue palette are Bulgaria (white green red
I think ???) and Ukraina (blue over yellow). I have no idea what the Kaszub national movement's colours
were - any info. on this one ?

-- 
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