HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gabriele@aero.org (Mark Gabriele)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct Propulsion Options
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:26:28 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: solecism.aero.org
In-reply-to: henry@zoo.toronto.edu's message of Sat, 12 Sep 1992 23:20:25 GMT

I was under the impression that there are space-qualified ion thrusters
in the NASA inventory; these are very low-thrust, weigh about 10 kg, and
are qualified for one year of operation.  Of course, they do burn a 
pretty serious amount of power, but if you're willing to test a space-based
nuclear reactor, you'll get all the power you need (25 kW in a small
reactor).  The only problem is decellerating upon reaching Pluto.  The
thrust from the ion engines is so small that you'd need to begin to
slow down very shortly after passing the halfway point, which is
not going to help make this a short mission.

=Mark
(gabriele@aero.org)
From: higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Old data formats (was New lunar spacecraft)
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:22:11 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

In article <1992Sep13.165313.6458@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Frederick.A.Ringwald@dartmouth.edu (Frederick A. Ringwald) writes:
> NASA has implemented a highly cost-effective science program to mine
> overlooked gems from old astronomy satellites, called the Astrophysics
> Data Program (ADP). This program funds preservation of old data sets
> and updating them into new formats, as well as science. 
> 
> So, isn't there also a corresponding program for archival data from old
> planetary science probes? It's worrisome that no one in sci.space came
> up with its name - does this mean such a program does not exist?

Not that I know of.  This would be a good question to ask the folks at
the National Space Science Data Center or the Lunar and Planetary
Institute.  

I did meet somebody at the World Space Congress who was involved in an
informal effort to recover the Lunar Orbiter data.  The data are
stored in analog format on magtapes.  They've located a machine which
may be capable of playing them back, but nobody knows whether the
tapes are in good enough shape to read all the pictures.  The hope is
to get the data into nice digital form so modern computers can digest
them.  There are at least two serious lunar-mapping spacecraft
projects underway in the U.S., and at least one in Japan, so there is
real interest in access to these pictures.

I didn't ask exactly where the tapes are.  LO was a NASA Langley
project, but I don't know where the data-management end was.  A
reasonable guess would be that there is at least one set at NSSDC at
Goddard.

As Dennis Wingo has pointed out, the pictures are also available on
microfiche from the Planetary Image Facilities.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | "I'm gonna keep on writing
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | songs until I write the song
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | that makes the guys in
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | Detroit who make the cars
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | put tailfins on 'em again."
                                            --John Prine
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.sci.planetary
From: kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco)
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct/ options
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:29:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.062858.29660@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>I don't think the planets will cooperate on this.  In the early 1970's, the
>outer planets were lined up so that a spacecraft could have slingshoted
>from Jupiter to Saturn to Uranus to Neptune to Pluto via gravity assists.
>In fact, this was the original Grand Tour envisioned for Voyager.  But
>delayed funding caused the Pluto option to be dropped, and the alignment
>among the other planets has worsened since then.  Voyager 2 just did
>make the window for Uranus/Neptune.   
>

I do not think that a trajectory exists that will hit all of the 
gas giants and Pluto, as Pluto is rather far from the ecliptic.

I believe the original "Grand tour" plan was the name given to the
trajectory of Voyager 2.  NASA considered this too risky (12 years in 
space?  No way!) so they asked congress to fund a modified grand tour:
two craft-- one on a jupiter-uranus-neptune flight and one on a
jupiter-saturn-pluto flight.  Congress balked at the cost and we got
voyagers 1 and 2 jupiter-saturn only.  With fingers crossed, voyager
2 was sent on the Grand tour trajectory (without funding for the last 
half) and, as we all know succeded rather nicely.

Voyager 1 flew most of the Jupiter-Saturn-Pluto trajectory, but was
diverted get a closer look at Titan.  I have often wondered,
considering the somewhat unexpected longevity of the Voyagers, how
many times the folks at JPL kicked themselves for not trying
harder to lobby for the J-S-P trajectory for Voyager 1.


-- 

            -Kevin

         Be particular
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: farthest Laser signal
Date: 11 Sep 92 05:32:04 GMT
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <1992Sep10.150201.15434@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes...
> 
>Ron, would you be interested in posting some of your planetary probe inormation
>to alt.sci.planetary? 

Sure, I'll post something tonight.

     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Anything is impossible if
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you don't attempt it.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     |
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Re- Terra-forming, The E-ca
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 20:47:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: sci

In article <BuMqG9.MzE.1@cs.cmu.edu> steve_abrams@executive.isunet.edu (Steve Abrams) writes:
>
>However, if D-He3 fusion comes to pass, you go straight from nuclear energy to
>electricity.

I prefer real science over Ex Deus Machina. If and when fusion becomes a reality
we can discuss it's ramifications on society.

Besides, we don't have to guess about fission, solar power, wind energy,
thermal, wave energy and man alive -- we could even couple the creep of
the San Andreas Fault easier than we can discuss fusion.


So electric cars are a significant -- nothing. The various power
conversions end up being less efficient than the ICE and the
private auto decentralizes the pollution sources.

I do think that there is a future for electric cars. But I'm not wild
about the wildly optomistic reports that the electric car age has
arrived. I still think that there is a good possibility that 
steam engines may make a revival. Not to mention all of the engines,
like the sterling cycle engines that can use lower temperature
differentials to operate on -- say a solar focusing lense?

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: sci.space
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:13:25 -0400 
From: David O Hunt <dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ethics of Terra-forming
Distribution: sci

>The only way you can logically make the situation on Mars the same as on
>Earth is to a) Demonstrate that life there affects life here, or
>b) Assert that life-in-general has value without Human life. (This
>choice is the route many greens take, and it is for this reason that many
>people correctly identify them as anti-life double-thinkers.  Anti-life
>non-double-thinkers have to be dead.)  You can also jump out of the system
>and c) claim that value exists seperate from Human Choice.
> 
>To choose a) above is damn-near impossible, unless you follow Astrology.
>To choose b) or c) is in contradiction to your own existence.
>Therefore, terra-forming Mars is bad, if and only if you don't value Life.
> 
>Only dead people can conclude that terra-forming Mars is bad.  I dare any
>of them to flame me :-)

FLAME!  And I'm not dead yet.  :)

I will confess that your ommision "If there is Mars life, before we terraform
let's assume we already understand it..."

Assume:   1)  There is life on Mars
          2)  We understand it _completely_  (how long will that take, anyway?)

Do we have a right to change their environment, which would most likely lead
to their extinction?

I answer no.  If hypothetical martians had done that to us, "our" life wouldn't
be here.  Of course, one could argue that we wouldn't be here to complain
about it!  :)

As to providing a "cushion" for safety - what about space colonies?  Asteroids?
Bubbleworlds?  Moon colonies?

I submit that you have a Mars fetish...   :P

David
From: T.D.G.Sandford@bradford.ac.uk (TDG SANDFORD)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: NOAA Technical reports list?
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:13:25 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 90908106@muser

I am trying to get hold of a list of NOAA/NESDIS technical reports 
(technical info on / uses of the NOAA-X series of satellites). Does anyone
have such a list they could send me? Or have an email address of an
appropriate contact at NOAA/NESDIS (? M. Hughes ?)

Please email to me - I'll post a follow-up if there's enough interest.
--
Thomas Sandford | t.d.g.sandford@bradford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct/ options
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 04:33:08 GMT

Robert Casey writes:

> If we send 2 probes to Pluto, maybe we should design them so that they
> can "talk" to each other.  In case one has a stuck antenna, like one
> we have en route to Jupiter.  Then one can relay data from the other.
> Or a dead high power transmitter, or a deaf receiver, and such.
> 
> I suppose that someone has figured out what design to change, or do better,
> to avoid "stuck antenna" problems?

The current spacecraft design has a fixed antenna, not a deployable antenna
like Galileo.  Note that the data rates we're talking about with the Pluto
spacecraft aren't that much higher than Galileo's data rate through the
low gain antenna.  It's a tradeoff of mass versus data rate.  We can get
the data rate up, but only by using either a larger antenna or a more 
powerful transmitter, which requires more electricity.  Either way, the
spacecraft mass goes up, so you either travel more slowly to Pluto or you
use a more powerful booster, which also adds to the cost.  The design
tradeoffs are rather involved.

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: sharma@nrcphy1.phy.nrc.ca (Rohit Sharma)
Subject: Re: farthest Laser signal
Organization: National Research Council of Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 13:35:09 GMT

In article <BuC4sA.3EB@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <199209041812.AA18322@leibniz.cs.arizona.edu> rcs@CS.ARIZONA.EDU ("Richard Schroeppel") writes:
>>Note that radar signals have been bounced off Venus, and were
>>actually used for some mapping...
>
>I believe JPL has done interplanetary radar work as far as Jupiter.
>
>>Assuming the purpose of your question is to consider "How feasible
>>are lasers for high bandwidth, semi-private, space communication?"...
>
>Feasible.  There is intense interest in the idea, and some in-space
>experiments will fly in this decade.  (It's just possible that secret
>military systems might be operational already -- laser communications
>systems would have very tight beams that would be very difficult to
>eavesdrop on.)
>-- 
>There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

  I would be pretty sure that military systems are in place and working
since companies like General Dynamics were working on precisely the same
thing in 1963-64-65 !  Even though the lasers available then were mostly
HeNe or primitive CO2s, they had enough encouraging results to make this
project into a bigger and better funded one in late sixties.  
 BTW, anybody on this newsgroup know of anybody who worked at the 
General Dynamics PLant in Rochester, NY ?? (in the laser com group). I 
believe the plant was moved in 1969.

- Rohit Sharma
.
  sharma@nrcphy1.phy.nrc.ca


Newsgroups: sci.space
From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct/ options
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:02:42 GMT

> Sun than Neptune and will not cross back over until February 10, 1999, and
> this is the closest Pluto will be for another 248 years.  The proposed plan
> 


Not really relevant. In 248 years we'll have people living furthur out than  
that. The real reason is that if a probe doesn't get there by 2010 or so, the  
atmosphere will be condensing again. This IS our last chance for about 248  
years to study the atmospheres of Pluto/Charon.

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering")
Subject: Pluto Direct Propulsion Options
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:11:43 GMT

Henry Spencer, net.authority, pontificates:

\It is extremely difficult to combine a reasonable payload and a manageably
/short trip time with an orbiter mission.  Pluto is *a long way away*; to
\get there in under a decade, the probe has to be fast.  Killing all that
/velocity is inordinately expensive in mass.  You really cannot do a Pluto
\orbiter in a reasonable amount of time with 1960s propulsion technology,
/which is what all currently-planned missions use.
-- 
\There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
/mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry


Just out of curiosity, is there a way to convince them to use post-early-
1960's technology, like an ion drive of some sort?

-- 
Phil Fraering pgf@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: 318/365-5418 SnailMail: 2408 Blue Haven Dr., New Iberia, La. 70560
If seven maids with seven brooms swept for half a year,
do you think, the Walrus asked, that they could make it clear?
I doubt it, said the Carpenter, and shed a bitter tear.
---------
"NOAH!"                        \           \ Lewis Carrol
"Yes lord?"                     > Bill Cosby, The Story of Noah
"HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?"/
From: rcs@CS.ARIZONA.EDU ("Richard Schroeppel")
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Armstrong's boots
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:57:11 GMT

Glen K Moore <gkm@cc.uow.edu.au> writes ...

>   I was aked today a question by someone who hadn't even thought of all of
    the useful things I know about the moon. A typical non scientist! He asked
    me "What material was used to make Neil Armstron's boots?" He needed the
    answer for a lecture on ?? and was serious in his request.

    I don't know where on earth to look. Does anyone out there know the answer?

Osmium  :-)

Rich Schroeppel  rcs@cs.arizona.edu

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: wa2ise@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.f.casey)
Subject: Re: QUERY Re: Pluto Direct/ options
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:05:07 GMT

Something to consider if you want to areobrake your probe: you'd have to build
it to take a lot of wind and blowing.  And the weight of an Apollo capsule type
heat shield.  Probably end up being similar to the weight of a retrorocket.
And less predictable and controllable than the rocket engine.
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,sci.geo.geology,alt.sci.planetary
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Magellan Caption Files
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Keywords:  Magellan, JPL
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:32:35 GMT

                            ==========================
                              MAGELLAN CAPTION FILES
                                September 14, 1992
                            ==========================

     An updated version of the caption files for the Magellan images is now
available.  These files contain descriptions of the public released Venus
images taken by the Magellan spacecraft.  The caption files are provided in
four formats:  ASCII format, IBM Wordperfect 5.1 format, IBM Word
format, and a Macintosh Word format compressed with the Stuffit program
(MacBinary format).  The files are available using anonymous ftp at:

        ftp:      ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3)
        user:     anonymous
        cd:       pub/SPACE/MAGELLAN/CAPTIONS
        files:    captions.txt        (ASCII)
                  caps_txt.zip        (ASCII -> PKZIP)
                  caps_wp5.zip        (IBM PC Wordperfect 5.1 -> PKZIP)
                  caps_wrd.zip        (IBM PC Word -> PKZIP)
                  captions.sit        (Macintosh Word -> Stuffit)

     Each caption refers to a P number.  By using this P number you can
obtain the corresponding photograph from one of the following places:

        Newell Color Lab
        221 N. Westmoreland Avenue
        Los Angeles CA 90064
        Telephone: (213) 380-2980
        Fax: (213) 739-6984

               OR

        National Space Science Data Center
	Goddard Space Flight Center
	Greenbelt, Maryland 20771
	Telephone: (301) 286-6695
        Email address:  request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

                                   #####
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Anything is impossible if
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | you don't attempt it.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | 

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 16:40:39 GMT

In article <pgf.716225563@srl07.cacs.usl.edu> pgf@srl07.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>
>
>
>>I'll be you knew alllll along that the evil empire wasn't so evil, didn't you.
>
>That's not what the people in the former SU are saying. They're
>saying it apparently _was_ what the right wing here said it
>was.

My implication was intended to be on US political views. This topic is
digressing rapidly...


>>But the theory that dinosaurs were killed by a meteor impact is only a theory,
>>right?
>
>I'm sure a ten-mile-wide cube of rock hitting at cometary velocities
>went relatively unnoticed, and had little to do with the death of the
>dinosaurs.


The point is, it's a *theory* which hasn't been anywhere *near* proven even
though you and I seem to agree that it is most likely.  Just about 
*everything* in astrophysics is 'theory' in that all we can do is look at
data through telescopes (of all kinds) and come up on what is happening millions
of light years away. Those things that work consistently with our observations
are accepted although they will not be verified. The reason I've gave that
example in the *first* place was because ozone loss is not just reasonable
in theory, it works in practice and has been *verified*.


Even after that, there are those who think meteor impact is fact (which I 
think also) and that ozone loss is bunk (which is absurd)

-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Pluto Direct Propulsion Options
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 06:50:16 GMT

In article <BuMyDx.885@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes...
>fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>[on the subject of Pluto's atmosphere]
> 
>>Yes: There was a stellar occultation in 1990 (? might have been 1989).
>>The gradual drop in the observed light not only demonstrated the
>>existance of an atmosphere, but also suggested some kind of structure
>>(odd density-temperature profile or a haze layer...)
> 

Also, Tobias Owen from the University of Hawaii detected nitrogen in
Pluto's atmosphere earlier this year.

>Do we need to worry about pulling another Titan?  It would be kind of 
>embarrassing to dedicate a half billion, two probes and ten years of ops, only
>to find out that Pluto's atmosphere is opaque :)

The two known bodies in the solar system with opaque atmospheres are Venus
and Titan, and both of them have atmospheres that are denser than Earth's.
Pluto's atmosphere is not very dense and will eventually freeze out as
it moves farther from the Sun.

Also, the surface brightness of Pluto has been mapped (though at a very
low resolution) by using the data gathered from the Pluto-Charon occultations
from 1985 to 1990.  The south pole was shown to be relatively bright, 
probably due an ice cap made up of methane.  Dave Tholen was involved 
with this, and can probably give more details.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Quiet people aren't the
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | only ones who don't say
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | much.

Xref: sparky sci.space:12486 sci.astro:9506
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Subject: Re: Laser distance record?
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 08:10:50 GMT

In article <26059@dog.ee.lbl.gov>
  sichase@csa1.lbl.gov writes:
>If you allow masers, then the answer is best measured in parsecs.  Oh... you
>want man-made lasers.  Never mind.

Actually, Megaparsecs.  Megamasers have been seen in other galaxies, though
I don't happen to know what the distance record is.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Inflatable Space Stations - Why Not ?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 13:51:47 GMT

In article <BtwzCC.852@news.orst.edu> katzr@ucs.orst.edu (Russell Katz) writes:

>Any of you experts out there have an answer as to why NASA doesn't use the
>tanks as at least a temporary habitation?

Check out the External Tank Study performed by Space Studies Institute
a few years ago. They cover ET uses ranging from space stations to
fuel recovery.

   Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "If they can put a man on the Moon, why can't they     |
|  aws@iti.org     |  put a man on the Moon?"                               |
+----------------------228 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX----------------------+