HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.29 4/10/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:25:26 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

In article <1992Apr15.150138.21016@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>
>>Anyone who codes in assembly will have NO problem optimizing the assembly
>>language for either machine.  An expert in assembly language knows all
>>machines pretty well.
>>
>
>Be serious.  Knows *all* machines pretty well?  In any case, no matter how
>much of an expert you think you are, we can't let *you* perform the test,
>since you obviously have a bias.
>

I am being serious.  It's hard, though, when you are in the thread.  You
don't want me to do the test.  I like 8086 assembly language just fine.
In fact, the 8086 and 6502 (Dr. Kittel's favorite CPU) are nearly source
code compatible (upwards from 6502).  But even though I like the 8086
instruction set, it doesn't mean I am blind to its inferiority to that
of the 6809, 32032, 34010/20, and 680x0.  The 6502 is not better than the
8088, just more orthagonal.

>>>
>>>What's wrong with using GNU C, for more of a "real world" comparison?
>>
>>GNU C doesn't necessarily have equivalent code generators for the two chips.
>>There is likely to be more work done on the 8088 code generator, if there
>>are more Unixes running on 8088 platforms.
>>
>
>Let's stick to the facts, and leave speculation aside.  GNU C is obviously
>not *optimized* for either architecture, and yet it seems to produce excellent
>code on both.  I just can't think of a test that would be any more fair.
>

If sticking to facts meant anything, you'd never post.  It "seems to" is the
key phrase.  It doesn't do nearly as well on the 680x0 as I do in assembly
by hand.  Oops, tomorrow, they're releasing a new 680x0 code generator, so the
680x0 is better/faster than the 8086, right?  Wrongo.  The assembly benchmarks
would be as close to the best set of instructions for the task on both CPUs
as possible.

>>
>>I AM an expert on both CPUs.  I know what to expect.  BTW, Motorola and Intel
>>have already had their best coders do up benchmarks.  The results:
>>
>>25MHz 486 = 15 MIPS
>>25MHz 040 = 20 MIPS
>>
>
>MIPS are meaningless because the 486 and 040 have different instruction sets.

Even if the numbers were reversed, the 040 would be a better CPU.  You don't
spend as many of those MIPS shuffling registers around.  You don't have to
spend 2 instructions to set up a 'C' stack frame.  Oops, sorry to burst your
bubble and inject a fact or two into this thread.

(Your rude comment to Dr. Kittel is most unwelcome).

--
Author of Amiga GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle,
and Genesis Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024
From: nyberg@willow.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason William Nyberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486
Keywords: 68040,80486,486,040,benchmarks
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:08:10 GMT

Nish Patel writes:

>Iknow the 040 is faster at floating point than the 486, but it is not 3 times as
>fast as some claimed. These tests showed otherwise. They show that a 50 MHz
>486 is faster than a 25 MHz 040 at floating point. (yes the 50 MHz will go
>twice as fast as the 25 MHz, before anyone posts some junk about the comparison
>being done with a 25 MHz chip, not a 50). They show that the two chips are the
>same at integer. This is what I have been saying, and what other tests have been
saying. And these tests are CPU tests, not I/O bound tests. The point was
>to compare the CPU's.

Which two chips are you talking about now? (regarding integer performance)
I consider myself pretty good at extracting meaning from mangled English
sentences, but this whole paragraph baffles me.  First you claim something
like: The 25mhz '040 is slower at floating point than a 50mhz '486.
(translation: a 25mhz '040 is less than twice as fast at floating point
than a 25mhz '486.)  Am I correct so far?   Then you become defensive:

	"(yes the 50 MHz will go twice as fast as the 25 MHz, 
	before anyone posts some junk about the comparison
	being done with a 25 MHz chip, not a 50)"

translated: The 50mhz '486 will execute with twice the speed of a 25mhz '486.
I have taken this into account in the translation of your first statement.

Then you say the two chips are the same at integer.  Since you had compared
a 50mhz '486 and a 25mhz '040 for floating point performance before, I 
assume you are doing the same for integer.  In which case you yourself have
just claimed that the '040 is appoximately twice as fast in integer performance
as a '486 with a similar clock speed.  This is why I am confused.  This is just
so _unlike_ you, Nish.  Thanks, though!

Jason Nyberg

>Nish Patel   nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom" ?
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Keywords: stupid, silly, amiga, heads, cant, win
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date:  8 Apr 92 06:34:51 GMT

skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip 'AdaX' Sauls) writes:

>Ooooh...  Don't make me so jealous.  I teach a damn Lotus 1-2-3 class to a
>bunch of accounting majors and I have yet to figure out why everyone seems
>to think that it is such a killer app.  Puhleaze!  It is a piece of crap!

  I'll agree with you on the DOS versions, but the Mac version is nice.

>>being drawn by a nice little 30 MHz AMD 29000 processor. In parallel to normal

>Apple probably got liquidator prices on these things as no one else uses them.

  Quite a few laser printers use AMD 29Ks.  

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.                     NZ for the America's Cup!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Intel HW
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:33:19 GMT

gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>>As far as I can tell, each has a fast 32-bit CPU, graphics, a hard disk, a
>>diskette drive, a keyboard, and a mouse :)
>
>As far as you can tell?  I was hoping for a bit of technical specifications,
>like amount of RAM, type of graphics, etc.  I apologize if I ask too much of
>you.
>

OK, the A3000 has standard Amiga graphics and 9MB RAM.  The 386 has an SVGA
with the ET4000 chip (1MB video RAM) and 8MB RAM with a 64K static RAM cache.

>-- Gerald
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: peterk@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: AmigaShell (What Good Is It?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:26:57 GMT
Organization: Public News & Mailserver, Commodore Germany PM UNIX, Frankfurt

clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu Ayala) writes:

>  I'm interested in what the AmigaShell can do in addition to
>  CLI.  My manual doesn't say much.  

For me the most important feature is the history function. With cursor
up and down you can page through revious command lines. With cursor
left/right and Del and backspace you can edit the current line. By
typing the start of some command line and then hitting Shif-cursor-up,
you search back in the history buffer for a line with this start.

Then you have aliasing, you have output redirection with the append
feature (>>).

>    What is all that
>  SPAT stuff, or the .bra ket stuff?

This is too much to explain here. It's powerful :-)

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to  \\  Only my personal opinions... 
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Graphics boards
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:41:12 GMT

matt@gbrmpa.gov.au (Matt Crowd) writes:
>Yeah, but the DMI uses a 34010 (TI) CPU, and the clones use the old
>charlie-cha-wa graphics chip.

Perhaps this is true, but you have to go with what is available.  I wish
the Amiga did have its own inexpensive "charlie-cha-wa" SVGA cards.  These
would be good for viewing still shots, if nothing else.

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: CDTV
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:51:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.131648.7075@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:

[ ]
>
>I may not love the fact that it DID happen, but that's overdoing it a
>bit, don't you think?  I mean, even Apple, the supermarketing giant
>(grr), screwed up with the Mac II and 4mb simms the first time
>around...

Well I could have been a bit more tactful I agree. Perhaps reading this
newsgroup has gotten to me! In any case there's a big difference between
a MacII and a CDTV unit. For the most part, people will buy the CDTV unit.
Few people actually buy Mac II's.

In any case can it be "fixed"?
>
>Am I the only one that remembers that?  When 4mb simms came out, they
>didn't work, because Apple had used prelim. specs that were current at
>the time?

Actually I got a MacII when it first came out. The idea of putting 4meg
simms in a computer has only recently crossed my mind as meemory has
not dropped to a more affordable level. Having a 10meg RAM drive for CDTV
would be great though.

Philip McDunnough
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
From: har@ux.acs.umn.edu (--SeebS--)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: 040 and 486 and nap42487 knows nothing about CPUs.
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:50:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: ux.1992Apr16.205025.21636
Organization: University of Minnesota

In article <1992Apr15.144330.20631@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>>[Intel is a kludge]

>Wow.  For a man of your education, a PhD, your attitude sure is arrogant.
Wow. For a man without a PhD, your attitude sure is arrogant.

Face it - no one has yet spoken up who has programmed both chips in
assembly and who does not feel that Intel is a total kludge. I know
that the computer science department at my old school was full of people
who all "grew up" programming the 80x86's. According to your theory, they
would like the one they started on better, explaining why none of them
are willing to touch the 80x86 series except as a mention of "this is
one of the stupid backwards chips."

He *was* right, y'know. It's only arrogant if you're wrong.

>+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
>| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
>| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
>|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
>+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
>|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
>|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Eight lines of sheer irrelevance.

-s
-- 
Peter Seebach, using my fiancee's acount. (Please use "SEEBS" in the subject
line, so we know who it's for.)  Polygamy: "There can be more than one."
I use an amiga because it works better than all the other machines I tried.
har@ux.acs.umn.edu (Love Incarnate)
From: har@ux.acs.umn.edu (--SeebS--)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Date: 6 Apr 92 11:29:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: ux.1992Apr6.112933.2118
Organization: University of Minnesota

In article <1992Apr06.091120.9752@CS.ORST.EDU> mohrc@nyssa.CS.ORST.EDU writes:
>DO NOT USE F or f to followup to this thread anymore if you do it gets posted 
>to ALL of these groups automatically:
>comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.games,comp.sys.amiga.misc,
>comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware

Untrue.  I used "F" to follow up. See, my newsreader makes a Newsgroups:
line. Edit it.

Sheesh.

>>P.S. If I find out how to direct these things to advocacy only, I will do so.

>NOW YOU DO!

No, now *you* do.

>thanks 

No prob. It's what we're here for.

-s
-- 
Peter Seebach, using my fiancee's acount. (Please use "SEEBS" in the subject
line, so we know who it's for.)  Polygamy: "There can be more than one."
"I love using MS-DOS - waiting for the machine gives me so much free time!"
har@ux.acs.umn.edu (Love Incarnate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.games,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.graphics,comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 19:41:58 GMT

gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:

>jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>: No, no no.  Intel and Motorola have been leapfrogging each other from the
>: beginning.  Motorola had the first 32-bit internal architecture, but Intel
>: had the first on-board MMU.  Nowadays the chip capabilities are basically
>: identical (32-bit, on-board FPU, on-board MMU), although the instruction
>: sets are understandably radically different.

>EEK!!!!  No.  Intel went 8k cache, on-board MMU.  Then Motorola took
>it a step further, and said 4k Data, 4k Instruction, MMU for each.
>DUAL MMU's.  I wonder what's next...  The 586, 8k instruction, 8k
>cache, dual MMU, and superpipelined FPU, with some strange, heavy-duty
>branch prediction...  ;)

BTW, I think the 586 will have a 32K on-chip cache, not 8+8=16K.
Just clearing things up.

>: Oh, and you expect them to come up with a new CPU every month?  How long do

>No, just another incarnation of the 486.  We're up to 4.86 million
>types of 486's now, aren't we?  ;)

No, I think it's around two dozen, maybe a few more than that. :-P


No, I think it's around two dozen, maybe a few more than that. :-P

>: (I know, I know), clock-doubled chips, i860XP, etc.  And I'm sure they've
>: been working on the 586 for a long time now.

>I'm sure they'll be working on that for a while to come, too...  I
>think we're going to see a lag in new chips until new technologies and
>archs trickle down to mainstream processors.

Maybe so, but it's *due* out this year,...

>: Take a look at the last two issues of Open Systems Today (nee UNIX Today).
>: Some headlines:
>: 
>: 	"NT Is Itching For a Shootout: New Windows May Not Be Unix Killer,
>: 	 But It Looks Formidable"
>: 
>: 	"Flood of NT Apps Is Forecast"
>: 
>: The thing that bothers me is that OS/2 2.0 gives you most of NT's promised
>: advantages *today*, but no-one seems to care.

>Amazing how you can have everything that's needed, and you're still
>looked at as being nonexistant, isn't it?  ;)

*laughs*

-Dan
.

>Greg
>-- 
> __________________________________________________________________________
>|				     The Chesterfield Electronic Towel (TM)|
>|gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu                    Don't leave Krikkit without it!|
>|__________________________________________________________________________|
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson dano@nasa15.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu 
"I'm a staunch Independant.  Every time I think I am a Republican, they
 do something greedy, and every time I think I am a Democrat, to go and
do someting stupid." - Jay Leno from _60 Minutes_ interview 3/15/1992
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom"
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:56:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: srl01.dano.702755769
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana

rhealey@kas.helios.mn.org (Rob Healey) writes:

>In article <1992Mar31.134509.7702@ms.uky.edu>, justin@mik.uky.edu (Justin Sullivan) writes:
>|> Nonsense.The Quadra's video is much, much faster then the native video of any  
>|> other Mac (and even much faster then native Amiga video). Try it on 24-bit  
>	My Amiga stock video switches screens with no noticable delays
>	other than the fact the screen just changed to something completely
>	different. Please elaborate on what you mean by faster than native
>	Amiga video.

>|> The burden of proof is yours. You made the claim.

>	Seebs did NOT make the original claim, check the thread more carefully.
>	The original poster said the Amiga COULDN'T do something, not that

No, you are BOTH WRONG.  Originally, an Amigoid made the claim that
Amigas could do anything and everything better than the Macintosh.
THEN, a MacMoron (tm) wanted PROOF, since the burden of proof lay with
the Amigoid.  THEN (whew!) Seebs galloped along and made the ludicrous
assertion that No, it was up to the MacMoron (tm) to proove the Amigoid's
claim that Amigas were in every way superior to the Macintosh. Imagine
that!  Then, Jerry said the burden of proof was Seebs', while not
specific to the original poster (whose duty WAS to proove his claim),
but close enough since Seebs and the original Amigoid hold the same
claim.  THEN (whew!whew!) Rob writes above that Jerry was WRONG.  Well,
technicaly, but Jerry's point is nonetheless valid.

But REALLY: why should it be so difficult to give *examples* of the
Amiga's superiority over the Macintosh?  It should be too hard,
right?!?! :-)

-Dan
.
>		-Rob
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson dano@nasa15.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu 
"I'm a staunch Independant.  Every time I think I am a Republican, they
 do something greedy, and every time I think I am a Democrat, to go and
do someting stupid." - Jay Leno from _60 Minutes_ interview 3/15/1992
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: johnsd2@jec326.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom" ?
Reply-To: johnsd2@rpi.edu
Organization: Information Technology Services, Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 02:38:15 GMT

In article <Paula_Lieberman.04oc@amicol.UUCP>, Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman) writes:
|> re article by Dan Johnson:  The Amiga chipset offloads stuff like pushing
|> pixels around on the screen from the 68xxx engine -- it's a piece of
|> inanity in my opinion that Apple has machines using the 680x0 pushing
|> screen pixels -- what a waste of a high power microprocessor, hand it off
|> to something else to instead of wasting a 68xxx cycle doing something a
|> much stupider chip can handle, and let the 68xxx do things that need a
|> 68xxx, instead of using a Ferrari to take the garbage to the dump......
|> 

I have no clue what you are responding to.

I don't remember saying anything to which this might be a responce.

I am confused.

Presumably, I forgot somethign that I wrote.

Perhaps you could tell me what you are referring to, so I can
make sence of what you are saying?

I suppose I could just oppose it based on what you are saying now,
but without the context I could very well be pissing into the wind.

Not that THAT'S ever stopped me before! :)
-- 
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 06:13:05 GMT

In article <dano.702841726@srl01.cacs.usl.edu> dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson) writes:
>
>I resent your stereotypifying (sp?) all IBM owners like that.

I agree - it's as bad as typifying Amiga owners as game players who've
never used anything else.  Stereotypes are bad news in general.

> but I think, for example, Iskander Taib from the
>Christmas Break, Jerry Sheckel and I are reasonably well-informed in our
>posts.  

I'll give the three of you that much.  (Generous, aren't I?  ;-)


-- 

David Meiklejohn                  | Internet : davidme@qdpii.comp.qpdi.oz.au
Computer Systems Officer, QDPI    | Fax      : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia                | Voice    : +61 70 92 1555
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:02:04 GMT

mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>
>>Sorry to put something in slightly off the thread, but what is copy-back
>>mode?
>
>Copyback mode is where some Amiga fan posts the truth and Jerry Shnekel
							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>selectively copies-back the article as he posts a bunch of hooey.
>

Nah, Copyback Mode is the course that Mike Schwartz has just enrolled in
so that he can learn how to properly copy people's names into his cheap
shot articles on c.s.a.a. when he can't think of any other way to save
whatever bogus argument he had in the first place.

>
>Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
>
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy