From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Meet Petey Ny, propoganda specialist.
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Keywords: abortion, digoxin, laminaria
Organization: Um, err... I *know* I saw it here a few days ago...
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 04:01:08 GMT

In article <nyikos.725152336@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>In <1992Dec22.012821.14804@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>
>>In article <nyikos.724627328@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>
>>[Lots of unsubstantiaqted hearsay garbage deleted]
>
>>>	abortion patients were briefly counseled that they could not
>>>							   ^^^^^^^^^	
>>>	choose to stop the procedure once it had started, but could
>>>	^^^^^^
>>>
>>Is this supposed to be suprising? face facts Petey. After the
>>procedure is started, it can't be stoped. The fetus is dead, and
>>halting the procedure would be a good way to ensure that the woman
>>dies.
>
>Correct would be, "once the fetus has been killed, the procedure
>can't be stoped [your spelling; I will correct your "facts" about
>abortion procedures and leave it to Mr. Finkelstein to correct your
>spelling].  The fetus is dead..."
>
>Y'see, you well-informed authority with sterling credentials, Dr. Tiller
>begins some of his procedures, especially on women prior to 23 weeks who
>opt for suction curette, D&C, or D&E rather than the digoxin special,
>with the insertion of laminaria.  He even RECOMMENDS the two-day procedure
>for 1st trimester abortions as being more "gentle." And it often IS safe to
>halt a procedure after laminaria have been inserted.  One woman even 
>changed her mind after being 3cm dilated, and had an uneventful full-term
>delivery.
>
I admit to the mistake then. From the context, I interpreted your
remarks to be aimed specifically at the late term abortions. In them,
the fetus is killed before the laminaria ae inserted. In early
abortions, the restriction does not apply. You admit that yourself
when you talk about a woman who did, indeed, change her mind and carry
the fetus to term. So what is your problem with his including a
warning that it is not possible to reverse the procedure? You've
already admitted that patients at Dr. Tillers clinic do indeed change
their minds.

>>[Lots more unsupported hearsay evidence deleted]
>
>Heh.  How many women will have to be fired from Tiller's clinic before
>you've stopped [my spelling, since I am using the word this time]
>dismissing their combined testimony as "unsupported hearsay"?
>
The fact that they were fired is what makes them suspect Petey. Had
they found the Dr's practices unfit, and quit, and had they then gone
to the AMA or whomever to provide evidence in support of this, I would
listen. The fact that they were fired, and then choose to make
unsubstantiated claims makes them poor sources. 

>>>I put "sic" after "oxytocin" because I am under the impression that this
>>>is the name for the natural hormone, whereas the hormone administered 
>>>intravenously is known as "pitocin."  BTW, digoxin is a compound related
>>>to digitalis with similar action on the heart, and is not to be confused
>>>with the even more lethal chemical dioxin.
>>> 
>>Incorrect, as usual, Petey. Pitocin is a brand name for a hormone of
>>either synthetic or natural origin called oxytocin.
>
>OK, I'll take your word for this one.  Note, I did say "under the
>impression".  Susan Garvin could teach you a thing or two about
>selective deletions.  You are making things way too easy for me
>by leaving the relevant text up there.
>
>>Digoxin is not "related to" digitalis, it *is* digitalis.
>
>Hmmm.  I don't have my dictionary with me, but it gave a chemical formula
>for digoxin, and it was NOT the same one it gave for digitoxin, which it
>identified as the chief active ingredient of digitalis.  
>
*sigh* Let me be more explicit Petey...
There is a difference between digoxin and digitoxin. Both contain
digitalis, but it comes in slightly different biochemical forms. The
different forms affect the drugs serum half-life, metabolization, and
excretion. Since the drug seems so important to you, at least clarify
which drug you are talking about.

>> What is your
>>problem with it's use to stop a heart?
>
>The same problem you'd have if someone you cared about had were subjected
>to its use to stop his/her heart.
>
It's not being used to stop anybodies heart that either of knows
Petey. It's being used, in this case, to stop the heart of a fetus.
Big difference.

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion