From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?
Followup-To: soc.men
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:09:19
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Aug26.185005.29368@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<4845@daily-planet.concordia.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: honna@cs.concordia.ca's message of 31 Aug 92 15:51:43 GMT

In article <4845@daily-planet.concordia.ca> honna@cs.concordia.ca (SEGEL honna) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.185005.29368@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> crussel@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Carol A Russell) writes:
>>I've read Naomi Wolfe, and don't see how a woman who believes what she does 
>>would use cosmetics or jewelry as anything but something *she* enjoys. 

>I doubt that it is possible to disentangle the facts of jewelry and cosmetics
>from the current state of the world and even *suggest* that anyone's
>*enjoyment* of these things is not intractably linked with the perception
>of self by others - and by extension, the assessment/judgement/appraisal of
>self by those same others.

That is certainly *part* of how we feel about our appearance.  However,
we all also have our own preferences as to what we like to see and how
we like people (including ourselves) to look.

>It seems to me self-deception to wear the 
>mantle of *enjoyment* in re: jewelry and cosmetics - Can You see the earrings
>that you are wearing?  Can you see your necklace?  Can you see the visual
>effect of make-up on your own face in a more-or-less typical (social) setting?
>Can you see the effect of that scarf on your face?  

In a mirror, yes.  (Unless the scarf is tied across my eyes, but that's
a posting for a different newsgroup...*grin*.)  In addition, I *can* see
my rings, most of my clothes (particularly the front), my watch and/or
bracelets, etc.  I enjoy looking at my rings, in particular, very much.

Beyond that, I would imagine that most people who take any effort with
their appearance do so with the help of a mirror.  For example, when I
get dressed in the morning, there is a mirror there and I can see how I
look.  Therefore, for the rest of the day, I know pretty much how I
look, even though I can't always see every part of my body.  Therefore,
I *do* know whether or not I enjoy how I look.  As far as I know, this
is true for most people, that they see themselves at *some* point during
the day.  Therefore, they *can* enjoy how they look.

>And as for ritual - there is nothing necessary about jewelry, cosmetics, or
>anything else when it comes to ritual.  It seems to me that "to have fun"
>and "as part of a ritual" are thin excuses for justifying behaviours so 
>deeply imprinted on a women's self-concept that to do without these things
>is too frightening a prospect or too taxing for the imagination.

I think it's hardly likely that it is too frightening or too taxing.
I don't find that I, or my other female friends who don't wear makeup,
are in any state of fear.  And as I recall, the last time I wore any
makeup was some black lipstick to go with a Halloween costume, which was
certainly for fun (fun in the way I looked...the lipstick *felt*
disgusting).  I can't say about rituals; I don't have much interest in
rituals myself.

It *is* possible for women to make choices about their appearance based
on what they enjoy.  It is true that these choices are influenced by our
society, but since *all* of our choices are influenced by society, an
*informed* choice on appearance (one made knowing that it is not
*necessary* to wear/not wear makeup) is no less valid than a choice of
what to eat that day.  Of course, you could always argue that all
choices are invalid because they are always influenced by factors
outside ourselves, but in that case, why even post, since that is a
choice on your part, and particularly one with some relevance to how
other people (in this case, readers of the net) see you?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.men