HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: montyb@alpha.aosg.gsf.dec.com (Monty C. Brandenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: human evolution (was: slaughterhouses)
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:12:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AOSG

This is already getting out of the charter so I'll try to restrain myself
from future followups...

In article <1992Oct12.182843.7972@morrow.stanford.edu>, GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon) writes:
|> In article <1992Oct11.203230.18579@aosg.gsf.dec.com>,
|> 
|> Within the very quote you use here, Dennis says "Human beings
|> evolved eating meat." Tracy responds with "Humans evolved eating
|> nuts, berries,...." and THEN goes on to ADD a morphological
|> statment. My understanding is that she has therefore doubly refuted
|> Dennis' argument, by responding with both anthropological AND
|> morphological evidence.

Tracy later accepts my anthroplogical comment on the omniverous habits
of pre-HSS humanoids.  And the morphological statements refute nothing
than I have read of Dennis' notes.  Morphology is not Anthropology.
That would be like refuting 'Apples are red' with the statement 'But
oranges aren't.

As for private versions of language, until such time as everyone carries
their own personal language dictionaries around their neck for communicating
with other, it *is* valid to assume technical definitions.  'Welfare' and
'rights' have had functional and distinct meanings for more than 200 years
(e.g. the Constitution).  Dennis did a credible job of relating these
terms as modified by 'Animal'.

|> 
|> How is this "sloppy reasoning"? Besides, this isn't debate school,
|> it's an exchange of opinion. Mellow out, huh?

See above and comments on the Humane Society.  'I like Trakheners' is an
exchange of opinion.  Semantics, Anthropology, etc. are matters of fact
and conjecture.

While I might have flamed excessively (I thought I did after the fact),
the general sloppiness, fallacious modes of argument, and parrotting of
pseudo-fact put me in a vindictive mood.  I apologize for the tone but
not the content.

[Later, Robin King gives even more Morphological information which 
 none have disputed.]

However, the description of anthropoid apes needs some updating.  They
are rather more omniverous than was thought in 1979.


				M
From: pallas@cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Sarah Pallas)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Animal Rights bashing
Date: 8 Oct 1992 17:05:22 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Tx
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: cephalo.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Oct8.060203.16346@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman) writes:
 >
 >	It seems to me that there is a lot of hysteria over "those crazy
 >animal rights groups".  Fact of the matter is that I support animal rights,
 >and several others on this group do to.  I don't think that any of us are
 >crazy yet we still support humane treatment for animals.  The fact of the
 >matter is that The Coalition Against the Horse Slaughter Trade is doing good 
 >work and correcting a wrong that many horse people have wanted corrected for 
 >a long time.  Other groups are doing the same thing.  To lump ALL animal 
 >rights groups and humane groups under the same "crazy" label is like saying 
 >that all business people are scum just because a few are.
 > 
 >					Tracy and everybody
 >  
WHOOAAAA Tracy!!  You are confusing animal rightists with animal
welfare groups.  None of us that I have noticed, and certainly not me,
have lumped these two totally different groups together.  For myself,
when I talk about animal rightists being crazy, I mean that they want
equal rights for animals, no medical research using animals or parts
of animals, no meat, eggs or poultry eating, no animal
farming for any reason, no keeping pets and NO HORSEBACK RIDING OR
DRIVING or otherwise inflicting of human desires on natural horse
behavior.  This is the platform of the major groups in this country
such as PETA and CEASE.  PETA has an underground arm called the Animal
Liberation Front which has claimed responsibility for, just as one
example, a car bombing in which a pedestrian and his baby in a
carriage were injured.  One member has been convicted of attempted
murder of the head of a company that makes surgical instruments which
could be used in animal research.  Shortly after promising to kill all
the heads of veterinary schools across the country, one such head was
shot and killed leaving his house for work.  The assassin has not been
caught. There have been many death threats to medical researchers and
their families.

When you say you support animal RIGHTS, that means you support at
least the platform, and I might assume it means you support the
violent means of obtaining the goals of the platform.  In that case, I
have no respect for your opinion, as it means disrespect for human
life.  If you mean that you support animal WELFARE, then I
wholeheartedly join you, as I already said to Pam Blythe.  Animal
abuse is not to be tolerated, and there are many fine animal welfare
groups which deserve your support, probably including the Coalition
that Pam Blythe has researched for us.

Emphatically,
Sarah Pallas, animal LOVER
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Slaughter Houses (LONG)
Date: 9 Oct 92 19:08:08 GMT
	<L4P74TF@math.fu-berlin.de>
	<1992Oct8.200027.24679@cascade.Stanford.EDU>
Followup-To: alt.null
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture


king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King) writes:
] >So, my question is:  why are people so shocked when they hear about
] >horses being slaughtered, but don't give a damn about exactly the same
] >thing happening to other animals?  What's the difference between the
] >killing of *any* horse and the killing of any cattle?
]
] It's still shocking though for flesh-eaters to realize that
] their horse could suffer the same fate as "food animals" 
] who are "supposed" to be killed and eaten.  After all,
] they care about their friend and feel responsible.

My horses will have a humane death when it comes to that time.
Then maybe I'll skin them and maybe I'll slaughter them.
I don't think the horse will care : it's dead.

] Lots of us DON'T eat cows and sheep and pigs for the
] precise reason that there _is_ no difference.

Where is there a difference ? Chickens ? Lobsters ? Oysters ? 
Insects ? Amoebas ? Grass ?

There's a lot of difference between eating carnivores and
eating herbivores, from several aspects : ecosystemic efficiency,
accumulated toxins, disease transmission and taste, at least.
Stick to eating herbivores when possible, I'd advise.

] It doesn't matter to me whether I knew the animal or not, I don't
] want to support the animal-eating/abuse industry.

You may not support it but you do benefit from it. The details of
the agribusiness system are complex, but it comes down to this :
meat production leads to lower proces for vegetables and grain.
For example, hay and corn are two of the three biggest crops
grown in this country, and the majority of both goes to feeding
animals that will be slaughtered for meat.

Human beings evolved eating meat, just like wolves, tigers, bears, 
and a bunch of other animals. When you are dead, little animals will
eat you. It's part of the cycle of life, as natural as breathing.

Prey animals fulfill a vital role for predators : they convert plants
into a form predators can use, meat. Predators also fulfill a vital
role : they keep prey populations in check by killing the old, the weak,
and the sick, and prevent the prey population from getting so high
that it consumes all the vegetation and then starves to death.
Human ranchers perform the same management function for domestic
meat animals. Legitimate horse meat dealers do the same thing
for the horse market.

If you want to blame someone for horse slaughtwer, blame the breeders
who produce foals no one needs, or the people who treat horses
as disposable business assets, or the people who buy horses as toys.
Most horses that are slaughtered are NOT stolen : they are sold to
slaughter by people who never should have owned a horse in the first place.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: 6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Impressive syndrome
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 92 18:04:40 GMT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
From: cbrand@cac.washington.edu (Carol Brand)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Impressive syndrome
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:14:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct7.161417.23665
Organization: UW Networks and Distributed Computing

Did anyone else see the article in the New York Times (Oct 6, Science
section) about the genetic disorder that affects quarter horses?  The
article describes a condition that causes horses to go into spasms after
workouts or after ingesting food that contains high levels of potassium.
These spasm range from mild to fatal.

According to the article, the disorder is caused by a genetic mutation
that is linked to a single stallion.  The NYT wouldn't mention his name
for fear of law suits, but I'm pretty sure that the stallion is
Impressive.

The article went on to say that researchers believed that the condition
could be eradicated in a few generations if people would only stop
breeding horses from the the Impressive line.

My question becomes, do you netters think that the American Quarter Horse
Association should deny registration to any horse with Impressive
bloodlines?  If so why.  If not why not.

-Carol

<<I don't know anything about the AQHA but, I'm not sure if denying a
<<registration would keep some people from breeding anyway. I know that there
<<is a disorder in Arabs that is called CID (sp?). As it was explained to me,
<<this is a genetic disorder that causes foals to be born without immunities.
<<There are some stallions who are rumored to carry it and some bloodlines that
<<seem to have it more. It seems the stallion owners who have horses who carry
<<this would have them gelded as not to pass it on. I'm sure there are people
<<on the net who could explain this more, or have more info on it. I would
<<appreciate any info anyone has. Thanks in advance.

<<Donna Ferreira


Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: 6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: IT'S DONE!!!
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 20:28:55 GMT


I have been reading your postings about Hank and just wanted to say how nice
to hear that he is doing ok. Good luck to the both of you!

Donna Ferreira


Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: king@glacier.Stanford.EDU (Robin King)
Subject: Re: STOP IT!!!
Organization: Center for Integrated Systems, Stanford University, California
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 20:25:55 GMT

clarefg@bestbet.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>I agree with Sue. This thread has gone on too long!

	I'm interested in all topics equestrian: slaughterhouse
	info, animal rights groups as they affect horse ownership,
	horse morphology/anthropology, etc.  These are all pertinent 
	to knowing about horses.  Leg aids and Avon Skin-So-Soft 
	are also pertinent.  

	Let's not limit our topics unnecessarily by being unable
	to deal with controversial subjects.  Flames and uppity 
	attitudes are detrimental to the sharing of knowledge.

	Robin King
	king@glacier.stanford.edu
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: sentimentality
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:23:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

>Yes, someone else wrote to tell me they had personally witnessed this
>type of thing.  Your argument about it being cheaper to ship even if some die
>is one I didn't consider.  Yesterday I heard a story about a feed lot
>for horses here in Texas.  They would fatten up horses to sell to the
>Europeans for meat.  But the financial backing for the yard fell
>apart, and the horses were left to starve.  I think many if not most
>were rescued and adopted, but it's still horrible to lose even one.
>Texas is THE state for shipping horses to Europe, it seems.  I plan to
>contact my representatives and ask them what they can do about it, and
>I will let you all know what they say (if anything).
>In the meantime if anyone has dates, locations, names, etc, post them
>so we can use these in talking to politicians.

>Sarah Pallas

	Good for you, Sarah!  Please let us know what they say.

					Tracy and everybody

[7mEnd of article 9269 (of 9270)--what next? [npq][m 

******** 187 unread articles in rec.arts.sf.tv--read now? [ynq]
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: slaughterhouses (long)
Date: 8 Oct 92 06:23:02 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

Article 9139 in rec.equestrian:
From: ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring)

>In article <1992Oct7.143622.27327@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>,
>lbm@avs.com (Linda B. Merims) writes:
>> Warning--description of what happens after they go up the
>> chute follows...
>> 
>> This is what the vet told me when I asked him what happens
>> to a horse at this particular packing plant ...

>Are you aware of the fact that all of what Linda wrote in the above
>article is perfectly true for all bigger animals that are killed for
>their meat, too?  Like cattle, sheep, etc.  All the gorgeous steaks

>thing happening to other animals?  What's the difference between the
>killing of *any* horse and the killing of any cattle?

	The difference is that many horses are stolen and sent to
slaughterhouses, I am very nervous about this myself, it doesn't
matter what breed your horse is or how valuable they may be to
a thief for slaughter they are roughly 50 cents a pound.  Also
while horses, cattle and pigs are treated roughly the same when
they arrive at slaughterhouses, which is for the most part not
good, horses are often transported in trucks designed for cattle.
These double-decker cars are too short to allow the horse to stand
upright properly.  The circumstances under which the horses are
transported are terrible, often travelling for days without water
or food.  And unlike cattle bills of sale and other documents are
not required for horses, thus again it makes them ideal for thieves
to transport.
	I read a startling case history in Equus magazine of a 
woman whose horse was stolen along with a friend's out of a 
pasture in California, the horse was then transported to Texas
where she found the horses half-starved in a slaughterhouse feed
lot.  Then the horses were essentially held for ransom by the
slaughterhouse despite her having very complete ownership 
documents!  Rather than wait for the authorities and risk
the horse being killed, injured, or further starved she paid
the ransoms.
	Other histories indicate that this is the norm not the
exception.  For this reason legislation being proposed by groups
such as the Coalition Against the Horse Slaughter Trade are
aimed at more humane transport, requiring water stops, no
transport via cattle cars, and bills of sale, and at stopping the
purchase of stolen horses by slaughterhouses.  This is not crazy
or unreasonable legislation, it is good necessary and long-overdue.

				Tracy and everybody
From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: CID in Arabs and Arab-related horses
Date: 7 Oct 92 22:06:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

Hi, Donna, I can shed some light on this.  CID is an inherited immune
disorder where the CID foal inevitably dies of a non-functional immune
system within 5 months of birth.  It is always fatal.  It is a recessive
trait, meaning that both the mare and the stallion must carry it and
both must pass that on to the foal in order for the foal to have CID.
A horse that has inherited one CID gene and one normal gene will not
have CID but can pass it on to their foals.  If two horses with the 
CID gene are bred, on the average, only 1 out of 4 foals will be born
with CID and die soon after, 2 will carry the CID gene but otherwise
appear perfectly normal and 1 more will not have the CID gene at all.
Horses that are not Arabians but carry a high percentage of Arabian
blood can also carry CID, though this is not as common.  Thoroughbreds 
and part-Arabs for example have had CID foals.
	So far registration is not denied to any Arabian who has produced
or who descends from a CID line.  Also the gene is not confined to
one line only.  Estimates on the occurance of this gene are as high as
25% of the Arabian population.  However that seems a bit high to me.
More likely the gene occurs in about 10 or 12 % of all Arabians and
Arabian-bred horses.  It is very unlikely that registration will be
denied to any horse with a CID gene unless a very accurate test can
be given for the presence of the gene in an otherwise healthy horse.
Even then I feel fairly certain that CID horses will be registered
perhaps with a non-breeding notation on their registrations.  
	While many breeders voluntarily geld a stallion who is a
proven CID carrier, many others do not and in any case the same
is not true of mares who are carriers, although one breeder I know
of specifically sold a mare who was sired by a CID stallion with
complete disclosure saying that they don't know if she carries the gene
and giving a recommendation that she be used as a riding horse only because 
of that (she was a brilliant mover and very willing so this seems 
the ideal occupation for her anyway).  
	Finally while it is pretty hit and miss and any herd may carry
the CID gene, the two largest herds of Arabian horses in the world that 
have never had a single case of CID born to any of their horses are 
Fable Arabians here in Tucson, and Shalimar Arabians in Nebraska.  
Fable currently has a herd of over 50 horses and has bred hundreds, 
and Shalimar I believe is considerably larger.  I feel very fortunate 
that my two girls come from this gene pool as I won't have to worry about 
CID unless I breed outside it.
From: gundy@equus.nas.nasa.gov (Karen L. Gundy-Burlet)
Subject: Re: Slaughter Houses
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 20:44:31 GMT

In article <BvtG34.KMu@mail.boi.hp.com> kris@boi.hp.com (kris troxel) writes:
>..... Pet foods are required to meet the same standards for "wholesomeness"
>and suitability for human consumption" as do the people foods. A study was 
>done that showed if all of the pet foods that are consumed were consumed by
>pets there would be 3 times the number of pets as there are.

I assume that this is implying that humans are eating the excess amount
of pet food because of hunger/economic reasons (I doubt pet food is
considered an epicurian treat) and therefore the standards require that
the pet food be suitable for human consumption.  How depressing.

Would wormers disqualify a horse from being slaughtered as pet food?

Karen

-- 
Karen Gundy-Burlet          Computational Algorithms and Applications Branch
Research Scientist          MS 202A-1, NASA-Ames Research Center
gundy@equus.nas.nasa.gov    Moffett Field, CA  94035-1000
From: china@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Estimating Weight
Date: 13 Oct 92 08:47:29 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

I want to estimate the weight of my horses, but can't remember
the formula for using girth size to calculate weight. Can anyone help?
What are the limitations and errors of this method and is there a 
compensation factor for different breeds (eg thoroughbreds vs clydesdales)?
Many thanks - Ross Jacobs
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: STOP IT!!!
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 13 Oct 92 07:15:03 EST
Organization: Wright State University 


		HEY!!!

I subscribed to this list because I wanted to read about and discuss
horses!  If I had wanted to talk about animal rights I would have
subscribed to that group.  PLEASE.... everyone who is in this very
annoying debate over human diet, animal rights, meat eating, etc.,
please either take it to e-mail or take it to the appropriate group.
Stop wasting my time and my bandwidth with your arguments.  

Sorry if this sounds nasty but this whole discussion has gone on
more than long enough and is now totally off the topic of horses.


sue
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
From: krystek@alcor.bms.com (Stanley Krystek)
Subject: Radnor International 3-Day
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb, Macromolecular Modeling
Distribution: rec.equestrian
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:34:55 GMT


Does anyone know the results of the 3-Day.
I was there on Sat for a beautiful day of cross-country
and I wonder if Bruce Davidson pulled it out, he was in 2nd
then and the weather for Stadium jumping on Sunday was 
horrible.

Thanks in advance....

stan



--
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<>   /   \ /   \    Research Institute                         /   \ /   \   <>
<>   ----- -----    Department of Macromolecular Modeling      ----- -----   <>
<>   \   / \   /    P.O. Box 4000    Room H.3812               \   / \   /   <>
<>    \ /   \ /     Princeton, N.J.  08543-4000                 \ /   \ /    <>
<>     `-----'                                                   `-----'     <>
<>                  (609) 252-4100  FAX: (609) 252-6030                      <>
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From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Al Khamsa
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:28:55 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <92288.24511.6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>, 6042230@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
> Tracy, you could probably help me out here. Some one was asking about Al Khamsa
> (or Asil) horses. I thought to be concidered Al Khamsa all lines had to trace
> back to desert bred stock. These horses were selectively bred by the Bedouins.
> Am I on the right track?
> 
> Donna Ferreira

Yes, Donna, you are correct.  In fact, I am considering breeding Quality to
a really gorgeous old Babson stallion named Fadl Starr.  He's Asil, Al Khamsa,
and BLACK.  I won't get a black foal since black is recessive but I should
get a baby that carries black genes, and if I am lucky enough to get a filly,
some day I *might* have my own Black Stallion.  

Sue
From: davek@informix.com (David Kosenko)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: sentementality
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:17:00 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Oct6.181549.6410@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> 
	lbm@avs.com (Linda B. Merims) writes:
>It doesn't cost that much to have the vet put the
>horse down and get someone to haul him away.  If you
>can, spend the money.  You won't be haunted by what may
>have happened to your horse in its last minutes on earth
>the way that I am.

When one of the horses at our barn hung itself (a long story), it cost
the owner about $150 for someone to come haul the body away.  This is in
the central NJ area.

Dave
-- 
Disclaimer: These opinions are not those of Informix Software, Inc.
**************************************************************************
The heart and the mind on a parallel course, never the two shall meet.
						-E. Saliers
From: clarefg@bestbet.Eng.Sun.COM (Clare Fleig Garry)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: STOP IT!!!
Date: 13 Oct 1992 16:33:48 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: clarefg@bestbet.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bestbet

I agree with Sue. This thread has gone on too long!

Clare