From: fester@etorofu.island.COM ()
Subject: Re: Fingerprinting Gaijin
Originator: fester@etorofu
Organization: Island Graphics, Marin County, California
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:27:49 GMT


In article <1992Nov19.024925.4568@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <HARKCOM.92Nov19091904@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp>
>harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) writes:

>The statistical probability that she is ethnically Japanese is very
>high because the marriages of Japanese-ge men+European-ge women is
>much higher than the marriages of European-ge men+Japanese-ge women.

Which of course means nothing. She IS living in Japan, has been for years, and
so the odds are not at all bad that if she is married, she is married to a 
Japanese.

>(-ge = ethnically speaking).

Actually, they taught us ge meant Germanium. 

>>   Not quite.  Koreans must change their names to get citizenship...
>
>This is not correct.  There is no written law that says that a person
>must change his name, but the immigration office might put pressure 
>on you do so.  In that case, this is no different than the pressure that
>non-Korean foreigners get.

This is not correct, as most of those who have lived in Japan have pointed 
out. (In fact, the Japanese government from time to time will admit this).
In almost all cases, "Koreans" who desire Japanese citizenship must change
their name to a "Japanese" name. Even then, their registration will carry a 
mark that they are a "naturalized" citizen.

>My Taiwanese coworker was pressured to change his last name; he did so.
>Some foreigners managed to get Japanese citizenship while retaining their
>non-Japanese last name.

Especially if they are non-Korean, which is rather Mr Harckom's point.

>> =}In particular regard to citizenship, most Koreans do not want citizenship
>> =}but do want the rights that are associated with it.
>>
>>   I have seen no statistics saying that "most" Koreans do not want
>>citizenship.  Many Koreans want citizenship but don't want to have to
>>give up their identity to do so...
>
>Too bad.  Like I said, the Japanese gov't has not discriminated against
>Koreans; they are confronted with exactly the same rules that every other
>foreigner must face.

Uh, no, not really. They are not citizens of any other country, in many cases.
Kind of puts them in a different category from the rest of us who immigrated to
Japan at one time or another. Note, Japan has (slowly) started to recognize
the rather unique status of these "Koreans", and is relaxing some of its laws.

>> =}The Koreans have never
>> =}once presented a case of a specific person who was denied citizenship by
>> =}the Japanese gov't and who (1) wanted citizenship and (2) met the terms of
>> =}citizenship.
>>   That (2) is the hanger.  Meeting the terms of citizenship is not as
>>easy as it sounds.
>
>Again.  Too bad.

???

>Too bad.  Like I said, the Japanese gov't has not discriminated against
>Koreans; they are confronted with exactly the same rules that every other
>foreigner must face.

As pointed out ad nauseum, this is simply not true. Perhaps some citations
would be in order...?

>> =}The Koreans have to meet the same requirements for citizenship and residency
>> =}that all the other foreigners must meet.
>>   How many Americans had to change to Japanese names to attain citizenship?
>>The soccer player Ramos still gets his name, why can't someone named Park???
>
>Japanese laws are different from American laws.

??? The point being that the soccer player Ramos maintains his name IN JAPAN.
This is not that uncommon for non-"Koreans", BTW. These was a former French
citizen who ran for Parliament under his French name (I believe he changed
it after he lost the election).

>Too bad.  Like I said, the Japanese gov't has not discriminated against
>Koreans; they are confronted with exactly the same rules that every other
>foreigner must face.

A) see above comments b) these are not immigrants to Japan, but 2nd and 3rd 
generation people.

>>   There was a TV drama about a young Japanese of Korean ancestry who
>>wanted citizenship.  The drama was produced to teach Japanese people
>>what problems such people face.  Changing names was a major hurdle to
>>overcome for most.  For those that did jump the hurdle, rampant
>>discrimination in hiring practices (perfectly legal) made it hard to
>>get a decent job.  Discrimination amongst some Japanese made it difficult
>>to keep previous jobs also.
>
>This is a separate issue.  Yes, there is discrimination in Japanese
>society.

Particularly against "Koreans" which is what this whole discussion is 
about.

>But as far as getting Japanese citizenship, the Koreans are not
>being discriminated against.  They should stop whining.  The Japanese
>gov't has not singled them out.

Again, yes it has. It singled them out at the beginning of the century when
it annexed Korea. It singled them out when they forcibly brought these people
into Japan (note, at that time they referred to them as Japanese). It singled
them out when it put them in the army. It singled them out when, at the end
of the war, it decided they were suddenly, after all, "Korean", and hence not
entitled to medical care for wounds received while fighting for Imperial Japan
and later, not entitled to pensions given all other old soldiers. In short,
in many cases, the government unilaterally decided these people were Japanese,
then decided, unilaterally, that they were not. 

Kind of seems they have been singled out to me.

Mike

-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan