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Approved-By:  Bill McGarry <wtm@SHELDEV.SHEL.ISC-BR.COM>
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:30:24 EDT
Reply-To:     Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         Bill McGarry <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2587
X-To:         LHCAP <l-hcap@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

                          THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                               Issue # 2587

                          Wednesday, April 15, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******


                            Guide dogs in Hawaii
                               Re: depression
                        Re: HELP NEEDED IN NEW JERSEY
                               Re: school idea
                               Re: doggie news
                             Re: dog guide rules
                             Re: DOG GUIDE RULES
                             NLS TB DEVELOPMENTS
                                Dreaming dogs
                          Nls In Northern Californi


                                ******


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                              Bill McGarry (Moderator)
                              (203) 337-1518



------



Subject: Guide dogs in Hawaii
From: 34AEJ7D%CMUVM.BITNET@VM1.nodak.edu (Bill Gorman)

Someone recently claimed  that  Hawaii  refuses entry to  mainland
guide dogs.  If this is true,  I suspect that the State of Hawaii
is presently the biggest sitting  target   for  some   really
devastating  ADA   complaint  litigation imaginable.  Perhaps
this  is  a  pre-ADA policy  that  they  will  now  find
untenable?


Sez me,

W. K. (Bill) Gorman




------



Subject: Re: depression
From: csmith@norfolk.vak12ed.edu (Chris Smith)
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network

Jeanne.Mcwhorter@f41.n106.z1.fidonet.org  writes:
> Index Number: 21003
>
> My fellow has not worked in about 10 years.  He was being abused by his
> wife when I met him and has a minus level of self-esteem.  He is
> convinced that he cannot find a job though he speaks several languages
> and is higly computer literate.  The worse thing is that he just can't
> make himself try anymore. . . .
[remainder of quote deleted]

I would suggest finding someone he can help.  Another person like himself,
a non-blind person, a child.

The Red Cross maybe able to use his skills or maybe a church
etc.

In helping others he can help himself.
Chris

csmith@norfolk.vak12ed.edu





------



Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED IN NEW JERSEY
From: 34AEJ7D%CMUVM.BITNET@VM1.nodak.edu (Bill Gorman)

Sounds to me like it may be time to carry your complaints to the
federal level in places such as the Office of Contract Complaince,
the EEOC, etc.

To say nothing of your elected representatives, of course, this
being an election year and thus the only time when they *may*
listen.

Don't neglect the media, either. Publicity can add a *lot* of
pressure.




------



Subject: Re: school idea
From: Paul.Guido@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Guido)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 SK>  why not have a class that tought braille to sighted
 SK> people.
 SK> what do you all thank.

in my case i find when people want to get to know me they usually ask if
i would teach them braille.  i say sure but if you don't use it you lose
it.  so what do i think?  i don't see a great demand for it even though
intentions were good but if you see otherwise go for it.  heck i know
braille and hardly use it myself because speech technology is so
available.

... nothing is impossible

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Paul.Guido
Internet: Paul.Guido@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: doggie news
From: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 CA> Keeping a dog, guide dog or not, tied up all of the time is
 CA> cruel!  Every creature needs it's own space, it's own time to
 CA> relax and run energy off.  I have known at least one guide dog
 CA> owner who kept his dog tied up all the time, and it, too, was a
 CA> wild, impetuous dog.  I would turn someone like that in to the
 CA> school, personally.

Well put, Carol.

I'd at least talk to 'em about it, because you're right-- that *is*
cruel.  It never ceases to amaze me how people treat dogs and continue
to expect them to work for them.  <sigh> They are not "devices", and, as
you said, they need space to relax or some of 'em wind up as very
stressed, nervous, unhappy  and wild creatures.

I'm always reluctant to think about "reporting" anyone without talking
the matter over with them, of course-- often people just haven't
*thought* about it, and once a cruelty is pointed out to them, they do
something about it.  Sometimes not... And, sometimes, there's a valid
explanation for the behavior that I haven't been witness to (the dog has
relieving problems, or chews on electrical cords; both things which
would make *me* reluctant to use the dog as a guide, but which are not
"too much" for some folks.)

Having been "reported" for percieved transgressions, myself, once, (I
"only feed the dog once a day", according to my shocked accusers. and
sometimes, I "choke him" with a "very sharp tug on his chain collar!"
No kiddin'...), I'm very sensitive to the gravity of bringing the school
in on things as an authority.  I was horrified by the whole experience,
even though I knew the accusations were bogus and I had the full support
of the folks at the dog school.

On tying down dogs:

I used the tie-down chain issued to me at the school precisely once
after returning home.  Chance looked at me as though to say "Why are you
doing that?" when I clipped it on his collar.  He lay there like I was
punishing him until I unclipped the chain. I never used it again.

But I'm also fortunate, in that chance has never chewed on things or
gotten into the trash, and he stays when he's told (like under a desk at
work, etc.), so I've never had the need to tie him down in a fixed
location.  I use the leash on the few occasions when it is necessary to
go well out of his sight when outdoors (when horseback riding in a
nearby paddock or test-riding tandems, for instance.) and this seems to
work with a minimum of distress.  So perhaps I would feel differently if
I had a dog who exhibited some of the things which make it necessary to
tie 'em down at night or when you're out of the room.

But, on the concern Bill had about letting the dog have the free run of
the house/having it with you at all times: I'm sure that Seeing Eye will
have recommendations about this one, too.

though I've never heard it spelled ut, I assume many of the schools
recommend that you have the dog with you everywhere so that: a.) the
bonding process will continue, cementing the relationship between
handler and dog and b.) so the dog won't have the opportunity to chew on
things or otherwise get in trouble uncorrected.

I kept the leash on Chance a
lot at first and just picked it up when moving from place to place (I
lived in a college dorm, so it was a little more important that he
actually came *with* me when I left other people's rooms, etc-- even if
I was just heeling him down the hall.) but after a week or two, he
wouldn't *let* me leave the room without him, unless I specifically told
him to stay.

Nowadays, like most people's guides, he follows me at a short lag time
(enough time for him to wake up, think about it, clamber to his feet and
figure out where I've gone) when I move around the house.  He can't be
bothered to get up if it's obvious I've just gone to get a glass of
water or to go to the bathroom or check the laundry. but if I'm gone for
a few minutes and obviously settling down in another part of the house,
he's along in a few minutes to flop down in another comfy spot nearby.
I think that's how it ends up with most people's dogs, after a while.

                                                  --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: dog guide rules
From: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 LE>  trainer, who was also my instructor, was x-military and openly
 LE>  hostile to anyone questioning the rules as he applied them.

I was fortunate: I certainly didn't experience hostility, and the questions
I thought to ask were answered as thoroughly as possible, as I recall.
I just didn't think of all of the questions I should have had, at the
time!

Most, I figured out on my own, based on my fairly extensive experience
with large dogs as pets while I was growing up and by various trial and
error techniques.  Where I could not fathom the reason for a rule, I
usually just followed the rule.  I only modified or abandoned those I
could understand and, therefore, evaluate for their usefulness in my own
dog-human teamwork.  It worked for me.  I can easily see, however, how
it might not have worked for others-- and I, too, would have appreciated
more explanation of the logic behind the rules at the time, as a matter
of course in my training, than I recall receiving.  We shouldn't *have*
to ask, 'cause not everyone will, and those who don't may well be the
ones who need the information the most.

Obviously, there's only so much that can be taught in a 3-4 week course,
but I think what *is* taught would be more easily remembered and used if it
was reinforced by the explanation of the "why" behind it; a bit more of
canine psych, if you will.

For all I know, this may happen, now. I haven't done the dog school thing
in almost nine years.

LE>   I've seen enough dog guide users disregard school rules and
LE>  become saddled with problem dogs to know the value of this
LE>  instruction.

Absotively.

I also think it would help if there was more emphasis placed on the fact
that the dogs will still undergo a lot of learning/training during the
first year or so you have them.  A lot of people come out of their month of
training assuming they have a completely trained dog guide. Just ain't so.

They may be safe to travel with; they may have their basic training down;
but they'll need a lot of reenforcement and additional work over the next
year or more to completely internalize the work.  Some of them can even be
taught additional commands, if it is done carefully and patiently and only
after they are well-adjusted with the basic set. (I'm thinking of things
like "find the bus" which gets my dog to locate the nearest bus stop bench
and "where's the car?" which starts him looking for the car we ride in most
often.  Places can be "named" with a lot of dogs, and hence you can develop
"shortcuts" to giving a series of "left, right, left" commands. As I
described on this echo a while back, Chance and I taught each other how he
could use escalators safely when there was no other option-- and, as it
turns out, the technique we used is the one recommended by the schools
which do teach escalator work.  *None* of this is mentioned at most of
the schools.  For all I know, they may strongly disapprove of such
additional training.  It would help to know that, too. )

Another thing which seems to be de-emphasized are the traits and habits
and skills and weaknesses of the individual dogs.  Obviously, the
trainers are aware of these differences-- they use them in order to
assign the best dog for the student in any given class.But the students
could gain a great deal if some of that information was shared with them
("Rover is very good at <blah blah>. You'll probably never have to worry
about that.  He needs strict attention with <blah blah>, because it just
isn't his forte.")  I can see how this might be awkward, and lead to
some students complaining that their dog was not "perfect", but it seems
to me that it'd be a reasonable trade-off-- better, shall we say, than
having the student find out the details the hard way and hence not do
all that he/she could to continue to work on the difficult points and to
reenforce the excellent skills and behavior.  A bit of "personal"
background on the individual dog assigned to you would demystify a lot
of those initial surprises.  It always seems like a shame that such
careful attention is paid to dogs, their behavior and habits and likes
and dislikes for anything from three months to six months, and then the
person who'll be working with that dog for, perhaps ten years does not
get to share in the knowledge gained about his/her beastie, but may only
profit, "second-hand", by way of the training that this knowledge has
allowed the trainer to impart to the dog.

but I'm just a naturally curious sort, I suppose.

                                                    --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Re: DOG GUIDE RULES
From: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org (Carla Campbell)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:129/89 - BlinkLink, Pittsburgh PA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 DK> i am sure there are some like yourself who feel obedience is
 DK> unnecessary but most the major guide dog schools insist upon
 DK> obedience and for good reason.

Dan, I respectfully disagree.  Most schools do prescribe regular obedience
exercises; especially early on in the relationship between dog and handler.
I do not agree that these are necessary, however, in all cases.

I believe that it depends largely on the personality of the dog and the
frequency with which he/she challenges your status in the relationship.

I conduct obedience exercises infrequently-- if Chance has shown reluctance
to obey me immediately or has blatently disobeyed me, or if he has not
worked for several days.  Otherwise, he has plenty of practice with "sit",
"down", "come" and "stay" in our daily life, from which I can easily gauge
his readiness to obey.

With dogs who tend toward obedience, I firmly beleive that over-doing
obedience exercises can actually damage their willingness to disobey when
it is necessary for your safety.

My dog, like some others, seems to view obedience exercises as a form of
punishment-- and did, even when we conducted them daily. I think it had
nothing, whatsoever, to do with the way I was performing the exercises, as
I was always quick to praise him for obeying quickly and was not tense
about it.  I believe, rather, that it relates to something in the way he
was raised or trained and to his personality. (He's a very "apologetic"
dog, by nature-- quick to look guilty for just about anything.)

Since I have a hard-working, well-mannered dog, I don't think the fact taht
we do not perform these exercises daily or even weekly has, in any way,
effected our working relationship or his behavior in public.

I do, though, think they were quite important over the first two or
three years of our relationship.  they did serve to establish the fact
that I am the "boss."  But, much like people, I think most dogs do not
attempt to re-define the relationship very often after that initial
period of "testing."  For us, I think by the fourth year of working
together, we pretty much understood one another well enough that I do
not question him on street crossings, and he does not question me on
basic commands like "sit."

As with everything doggie, your mileage may vary according to the
individuals involved!

                                                             --Carla

... Read what I mean, not what I write!

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!129!89!Carla.Campbell
Internet: Carla.Campbell@f89.n129.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: NLS TB DEVELOPMENTS
From: Steve.Matzura@f203.n2603.z1.fidonet.org (Steve Matzura)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:2603/203 - The Shop Mail Only, Flushing NY


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

 > better yet why dont they have a 800 number so we call via modem and
 > search and then leave e requests to be sent to our regional library

Yes, yes, a million times yes!  I've been asking for this for
literally twenty years!  And there's absolutely no good reason why
we cannot have it and why we do not have it.

Let me tell you about a trip I took to the New York State Library
for the Blind and Physically Handicapped at the Cultural Education
Center in Empire State Plaza.  Now, this library (NLS branch) had
recently gotten a lot of funding to put in a new computer system,
and I, being a computer person since I could spell the word, had to
go down and see what they had, and what they were doing with it.  I
did this, by the way, just for reference, in October, 1989, when I
went to the ACB State convention.

Anyway, I saw this great system (run on a VAX, by the way, for
anybody who knows about such things) where someone could walk up to
a terminal and search the title index, the author index, the
category index, the media index, the periodicals index, retrieve
articles by keyword for doing research, cause extracts and
abstracts to be printed on a local printer so the patron could take
the material home with them without having to check out paper
magazines and reports, etc., ... lots and lots and just loads of
nice features--oh yes, you could place orders right through the
very same terminal, just like you should be able to do.

Needless to say, I was very pleased and happy with their new
system. "Gee," said I, "where's your talking terminal or paperless
Braille device so I might look at the system from a blind user's
standpoint?"  "Oh," said my tour guide, a librarian's assistant,
"that's not yet possible.  We don't have any such things here.
This branch is primarily a mail-only library, not designed for
walk-ins."  "Fine," said I, "then what's the dial-up number so I
can get into it when I get home?"  "Ain't no such" was the reply.
The system exists, the capabilities are what we want, but somehow,
somebody somewhere doesn't understand that we want them and that we
could make use of them.  My question is, how do we change this???

Steve Matzura

Via: FrontDoor 2.02

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!2603!203!Steve.Matzura
Internet: Steve.Matzura@f203.n2603.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Dreaming dogs
From: Warren.Figueiredo@f6.n3800.z1.fidonet.org (Warren Figueiredo)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3800/6 - CompuChurch (tm) IH, Baton Rouge LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

Gary Larson's comic strip THE FAR SIDE has always been a favorite of
mine. Today's strip was captioned "When seeing-eye dogs dream." It
showed a sleeping harnessed dog sprawled out on a rug. The dream bubble
over is his head shows him cutting through the middle of traffic; his
harness and a leash flapping in the wind. He is in hot pursuit of a
striped cat. The cat is shown beating a hasty retreat.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3800!6!Warren.Figueiredo
Internet: Warren.Figueiredo@f6.n3800.z1.fidonet.org




------



Subject: Nls In Northern Californi
From: Warren.Figueiredo@f6.n3800.z1.fidonet.org (Warren Figueiredo)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3800/6 - CompuChurch (tm) IH, Baton Rouge LA


[This is from the Blink Talk Conference]

I have the luxury of living in walking distance from our network library
so most of the time I just bop on over, browse the shelves and pick out
the books I need. However I do send the library lists from time to time.
I clearly indicate that I want series sent together and if all books are
not available at that time, hold the order until they are available.
Ever since then, it's worked like a charm. Since I have a standard book
order letter on my hard disk, it's easy to prepare a request in
no time. I also have a record of the books that I have requested so that
I keep track of what the library has sent.

--
Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!3800!6!Warren.Figueiredo
Internet: Warren.Figueiredo@f6.n3800.z1.fidonet.org




------






                                ******

             End of Issue # 2587 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU