HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Tuesday, 8 September, 1942
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:57:57 GMT
Organization: Summit NJ

>Tuesday, 8 September, 1942
>
>Vichy officials dismiss General de St. Vincent.  The general, in his
>capacity as Military Governor of Lyons, had refused to cooperate in the
>arrest of Jews in his jurisdiction.

One of the things that Holocaust survivors from eastern Europe point out,
and the Poles, Lithuanians, and Hungarians are explicitely identified,
is the way the local anti-Semites jumped on the "kill the Jews"
bandwagon that the German invaders brought into the country.

One thing that the government of France has been too quiet about is the
degree of complicity that the Vichy government had in the Final Solution.
Here was a country that was not occupied by the Nazis (until November
9, 1942), that was not at war with anyone, but nonetheless contributed
their fair share of Jews.  The only axis area where the Jews were safe
were in areas controlled by Italy.
-- 
Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Xref: sparky soc.history:8111 talk.politics.mideast:19703 talk.politics.soviet:7762
From: mike@huevos.ma.utexas.edu (Mike Sullivan)
Newsgroups: soc.history,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Mutlu renamed Argic?
Date: 8 Sep 92 02:26:33 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin Mathematics

I had put Mutlu into my kill file a long time ago and nothing from him
nor followups to him appears when I read. I don't really know how kill
files work, but interestingly enough, no posting from this Argic appears
in my reader. I had to go to "level 2" to see these posts. Maybe my kill
file keeps track of who is who.

Mike Sullivan
mike@math.utexas.edu
Xref: sparky soc.history:8090 talk.politics.mideast:19657 talk.politics.soviet:7714
From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Newsgroups: soc.history,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Mutlu renamed Argic?
Date: 5 Sep 92 19:29:35 GMT
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <4624.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:


+>Fellas, does anyone know how I get get an archive of older Newsgroup
+>postings? Because these following paragraphy of Argic's is 99% the
+>same as a Mutlu posting about a month ago. It looks like
+>we are dealing with the same person (?program?) here.

	Dont bother to look at archives because there have already been
at least six postings that I have positivly identified as Previously
Multu posts.  All that really changes is the insult header.  The rest
is from the Multu archives. 

	The conclusion is that this is either the "real" Multu posting
under a different name or one of the former "other" multus (i.e. those
who were posting under his name like Ahmet Cosar) who has decided to 
stop being Multu.

	The Argic postings as best I can tell are coming from a uucp site
which does not really exist.  If anyone has the skill and the intrest, it
would be nice to know who Argic really is and what site he is really
originating from.  
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: US colonializing (Was: An open letter to the Emperor Akihito of Jap
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Sep4.151925.319@acuson.com>
	<1992Sep6.091212.8627@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
Date: 6 Sep 92 11:48:30

I offer the following 1900? quotation from Finley Peter Dunne's Mr. Dooley,
"Whither the Constitution follys the flag or no, the Supreme Court
follys the iliction returns."  Dialect approximate.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne)
Subject: Re: William Penn
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:30:29 GMT

In article <92247.074829C05705DA@wuvmd.wustl.edu> C05705DA@WUVMD writes:
>Looking back through history, I'm having trouble with the forgotten
>century.  I know Pennsylvania was named after William Penn.  However,
>where I'm running into trouble, I remember that Penn defeated the Dutch
>and signed a treaty that gave him New Amsterdam, now New York City, and
>New Netherlands, now New York state.  So, did he recieve Pennsylvania
>charter from England after he conquered the Dutch, or was it involved in
>conquest some way or another?  I seem to remember some how that all of this
>also involved East and West Jersey and Deleware.  Could someone shed some
>info on me please?  thanks.

William Penn was a well to do young Quaker whose religion did not agree with
the Established Church of England.  He was also related to the Duke of York.
He was given the territory which is now the State (Commonwealth) of Pennsylvania.  I don't think he was even in North America at the time and didn't come over
till much later.  About the time that Pennsylvania was settled by the early
Quakers, New York was taken over by the British.  I don't have history back-
ground on New Jersey and Delaware, although I had heard that the groups which
received East and West New Jersey, were never sure where the boundaries were.

Charlie
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Pilgrams
In-reply-to: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca's message of Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:12:12 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Sep4.124212.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:20:29 CDT

Olaf Janzen writes:

   > Does anybody know the name of the Indian nation or tribe in particular
   > that first met the pilgrams?

   The Wampanoag Indians; their sachem was Massasoit.  ...Calder ... 
   suggests that Massasoit welcomed the Pilgrims as allies out of concern 
   for the ambitions of the Narragansett Indians to the west of the 
   Wampanoag.

And what happened to the Wampanoags, the Narragansetts, the
Massachusetts, and many other tribes?  They were exterminated.  People
today are mainly aware that the Indians suffered bad treatment,
relocation, and so forth, but many tribes just ceased to exist.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne)
Subject: Re: Battle of New Orleans
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:20:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.035856.2128@midway.uchicago.edu> mss2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>	My education in US history had always suggested that the
>Battle of New Orleans was, as a battle, historically irrelevant.
>Because it took place several weeks after the conclusion of the Treaty
>of Ghent and the formal end of the War of 1812 (though neither side
>knew of this at the time due to communication delays) it was portrayed
>as a militarily impressive but ultimately meaningless victory, its
>only importance lying in the fact that it catapulted Andrew Jackson to
>national prominence.

>	However, recently I've been reading Paul Johnson's _The Birth
>of the Modern_, a history of the early 19th century, which takes a
>somewhat different view of it:

>	"[T]hough Jackson's victory at New Orleans had no effect on
>the treaty [of Ghent] itself, it determined the way it was interpreted
>and applied.  The treaty was as important in what it did not say as in
>what it did.  The Treaty of San Ildefonso (1800), by which Bonaparte
>secured the Louisiana Territory from Spain, said France could not
>dispose of it without first offering it back to its original owner.
>This Bonaparte omitted to do, so when he sold it to the United States
>in 1803, most nations, including Britain, did not recognize the
>purchase.  In international law, as Britain saw it, America had no
>right to be anywhere on the gulf of Mexico, including New Orleans and
>Mobile.  Since the Treaty of Ghent said nothing about these
>territories, Britain would have been at liberty to hand them back to
>Spain had she been in possession of all or any of them at the time the
>treaty came into effect.  As Monroe put it to Madison, if Jackson had
>lost the battle, that is exactly what Britain would have been tempted
>to do.  The effect of Jackson's victory was to legitimize the entire
>Louisiana purchase in the eyes of the international community;
>henceforth we hear no more about its illegality.  

>	It seems to me that Johnson makes a good case.  But I'm
>curious, is there anything to the "conventional wisdom"?  Anyone care
>to argue that Johnson overstates the importance of New Orleans?

I suspect there's a lot of truth in this position.  The Revolutionary
war was largely fought because the U.S. colonies did not want to be
ruled by Britain.  The War of 1812 was fought because Britain was 
continuing to act as if the entire world was under its control and it
could do anything it wanted to (including impressing U.S. merchant
seamen into British warships).  I suspect that if the war had been
less decisive (vis-a-vis the New Orleans issue), Britain would probably
have assumed that all of the Caribbean was still hers, and would probably
have attacked ports in New Orleans and along the Gulf Coast.

Charlie


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 3 September, 1942
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<5499@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:04

Try an encyclopedia.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Xref: sparky soc.history:8089 talk.politics.mideast:19651 talk.politics.soviet:7707
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.history,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Mutlu renamed Argic?
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:04:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Fellas, does anyone know how I get get an archive of older Newsgroup
postings? Because these following paragraphy of Argic's is 99% the
same as a Mutlu posting about a month ago. It looks like
we are dealing with the same person (?program?) here.

>This joke will open the skies to mankind. While there is a new world
>order emerging, to turn around and ask the Turkish Republic of Northern
>Cyprus (TRNC) to dance with an old world tune would not solve any
>problems. Who is ready to claim that 'Greek Cypriots' are not hating
>the 'Turkish Cypriots?' Insisting on not recognizing the TRNC as a
>separate republic and push them to get together with Greek Cypriots
>is no different than asking each and every one of the new republics
>of old Soviet Union, Croatia and Slovenia in Yugoslavia to go back
>to the old status quo.

>Serdar Argic

 Gimme a break, Hasan.
                                                              
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 9 September, 1942
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:12:59 GMT

Bill,

  I got this yesterday. Thought I'd forward it. You may wish to encourage
him directly?

George

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Date:     09 SEP 92 19:10:25 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.bitnet>
To: <patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.COM>
X-Orig-To: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
Subject:  50 years ago
Message-Id: <920909.19102244.067888@USM.CP6>

George,
Here is  some grist for your mill.
Oct 1 1942. The US enters the Jet Age as the Bell XP-59A "Airacomet"
flys for the first time at the Army's super-secret Muroc Facility.
The XP-59A was developed in total secrecy based on engine plans
provided by the British.

(I  don't think it saw service in WW-2)

Source: Naval Aviation News Sept.-Oct. 1992, p. 20.

Regards,

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: Re: Non-Europeans in 17th-Century Britain
Reply-To: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:27:29 GMT

I can't quote exact figures, but the following are relevant:

*CBarker, Anthony J.
   1978   The African Link: British Attitudes to the Negro in the
          Era of the Atlantic Slave Trade, 1550-1807. London:
          Frank Cass.
 
*CHammond, Dorothy Bramson and Alta Jablow
   1978   The Africa that Never was: Four Centuries of British Writing About
          Africa - An Anthropological View Contrasting the Africa of Fact and
          the Africa of Fiction. New York: Irvington Publications.
          Ordered. Received copy under following title:
   
   1977   The Myth of Africa. New York: The Library of Social Science.
 
*CJablow, Alta
   1963   The Development of the Image of Africa in British Popular Literature,
          1530-1910. Doctoral Dissertation, Political Science, Columbia 
          University.
 
*COakes, Katherine B. [Mrs. C.H. George]
   1944   Social Theory in the Early Literature of Voyage and Exploration in
          Africa. Ph.D. Dissertation, Department of Social Institutions.
          University of California, Berkeley.
 
*CShyllon, Folarin Olawale
   1977   Black People in Britain, 1555-1833. London: Oxford University
          Press.
 
*CWalvin, James
   1972   The Black Presence: A Documentary History of the Negro in England,
          1555-1860.
 
*CWalvin, James
   1973   Black and White: the Negro and English Society, 1555-1945.
 
I hope these prove helpful.

    Norm Buchignani/University of Lethbridge/BUCHIGNANI@HG.ULETH.CA
"If we have been accustomed to deplore the spectacle...of a workman occupied
during his whole life in nothing else but the making of knife-handles or pins'
heads, we may find something quite as lamentable in the intellectual class, in
the exclusive employment of a human brain in resolving some equations, or in
classifying insects. [This] occasions a miserable indifference about the
general course of human affairs, as long as there are equations to solve and
pins to manufacture."                                      Auguste Comte
From: pmaster@node.rinaco.msk.su (Alexander R. Timichev)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Archives documents of Russian history for sale.
Date: 7 Sep 92 07:14:06 GMT
Reply-To: pmaster@node.rinaco.msk.su
Organization: Russian Investment Joint-Stock Company RINACO (telephone
    node)

Dear Sirs!
Our firm have got some archives documents of Russia and USSR history for
sale. There are many old interesting documents. We are waiting your proposals
with what kind of document you need, year, etc .

        Alexander.

=================== pmaster@node.rinaco.msk.su ======================
From: tmohler+@cs.cmu.edu (Tim Mohler)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:33:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BuH7Fr.Cz5.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <CB.92Sep10113510@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Gary Greene writes:
>
>   >Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it? 
>
>   Yes it is.  Central America starts at Mexico's southern border, 
>   and North America stops there.  Perhaps you are confusing Latin 
>   America with South and Central America.
>
>This confusion is getting interesting.  I had always considered all the

Yes indeed. Something else is confusing me - why haven't any of the
Southwest Indians been mentioned?  I'm laboring under the impression
that there were cities there long before the Europeans got there,
even if they were "only" mud bricks...

Tim
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:34:04 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <CB.92Sep10113510@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
> Gary Greene writes:
> 
>    >Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it? 
> 
>    Yes it is.  Central America starts at Mexico's southern border, 
>    and North America stops there.  Perhaps you are confusing Latin 
>    America with South and Central America.
> 
> This confusion is getting interesting.  I had always considered all the
> countries from Mexico to Panama to constitute Central America, but that
> Central America is _part_of_North_America_ (analogous to Asia including
> the "Indian subcontinent" and Asia Minor).  Since Central America is
> clearly part of a continent, it has to be North America, correct?

Central America encompasses both the "bottom" or southern tip of North
America, and the "top", or northern tip of South America.  I believe
Panama encompasses both continents, unless some geographer out there
knows about some obscure fault line, where they put the border between
the two continents.  === Al
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: loosemore-sandra@CS.YALE.EDU (Sandra Loosemore)
Subject: Re: US Ironclads (Was: Re: US colonializing )
Organization: staff hacker @ Yale Haskell project
	<ROTEN.92Aug31133031@CUBA.gsfc.nasa.gov>
	<1992Sep1.145046.5533@news2.cis.umn.edu> <1992Sep2.053823.28489@anasaz>
	<jwb.716023928@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 09:02:01 GMT

[Removed pointless newsgroups from distribution]

jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) writes:

   ... apart from the psychological effect of the captures 
   of the Guerriere, Java, etc., the role the US
   heavy frigates played between 1812-1814 was negligible. They spent most 
   of the war bottled up in port along with Madison's quite useless
   gunboats.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the effect was "negligible".  The
blockade *did* tie up squadrons of ships-of-the-line that the British
would probably have preferred to use elsewhere.

-Sandra
From: kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Mediterranean History
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:23:14 GMT
Organization: Center for Automation Research, Univ. of Md.


	I am looking to do some reading on historical periods/areas that I
have very little or no knowledge of from my studies. I decided to start with
the Mediterranean Sea area and work eastward.
	So, does any one have some suggestions for books on the Greeks,
Romans, Carthaginians, and other civilizations in the area? I am looking
mostly for histories that deal with events prior to the Crusades, with an
emphasis before AD 600. Are there any good overviews that would be useful when
I find something I might want to check out in greater detail?

						Ken Crist
						kayuucee@cvl.umd.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball)
Subject: Re: US colonializing (Was: An open letter to the Emperor Akihito of Japan)
Organization: Moria Mining Guild (BBS) -- Dallas, Texas, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:23:06 GMT

In article <92Sep3.100424edt.136@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>In article <JMC.92Sep2171613@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>The claim that Cuba was virtually a U.S. colony and that this was the
>>reason for Castro's success is axiomatic in leftist circles, i.e. it
[deleted]
>>Anyway, precisely what is a "virtual colony"?
>
>It normally identified as a banana republic, where the CIA decides
>who to be el presidente/top monkey, the agency, does allow however,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This did not apply to Cuba, so Cuba fails the test.  The CIA did not even
form until after WWII.


>military coups once a while, where the country is mainly owned
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>by foreigners, also there usually large US naval/air bases present,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Cuba fails this test also.


>lands leased for 99 years in a fair bilateral treaty, 
>and the red light districts which goes with it.  
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Every country has these, you don't have to be a colony to have one.
-- 
Tom Kimball  			tom@europa.lerctr.org    
tom@europa.lonestar.org		tom%europa@egsner.cirr.com
From: cl127548@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: cold war history
Summary: sochitt
Date: 10 Sep 92 02:54:15 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

help
Xref: sparky soc.history:8197 bit.listserv.history:4855
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: soc.history,bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:50:31 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen Harker) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.184158.16049@compu.com>, fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>> yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
>>>city was called Tenochitlan (spell?) before the Spanish.
>>
>> Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it?

>	Yes, where else is it but North America?  The Americas consist of
>two continents North America and South America.  When you look at a map it
>is clear that Mexico and Mexico city are in North America.  It becomes even
>clearer when you look at a map of the continental plates.

Yes, it does. Don't really know what I was thinking. Maybe of a Central 
American continent that starts at the Rio Grande? :-)

Just where do they draw the line?

fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr
From: 00rdharringt@bsu-ucs.uucp (Rob Harrington)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:55:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.131346.1649@oz.plymouth.edu>, sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
> I always thought it was Old Oraibi in Arizona.
> 
> -- 
>   - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu

What ever happened to St. Augestine(sp) Florida?  I was always told that
was the first permanent European settlement in N. America...

-- 
/---------------------------------------v-------------------------------------\
|  Rob Harrington                       |              Ball State University  |
|  Department of History                |               Muncie, Indiana, USA  |
|  Vax--00RDHARRINGT@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu  |       Unix--herring@bsu-cs.bsu.edu  |
>---------------------------------------^-------------------------------------<
|               Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah -- Shane MacGowan                |
|                       Aoibheann beatha an scol/aire!                        |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: soc.history