HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MSZHANG@SUNRISE.BITNET
Subject:      Some questions to IFCSS HQ
Reply-To: MSZHANG@SUNRISE.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:35:00 GMT

I fully agree with Junwei's post of " Some thought on CCSA and IFCSS".
It expressed the feeling of a lot of CSS. When I went through IFCSS HQ
report on its financial crisis, I really felt a little uneasy about it.
Several questions immediatelt jumped to my mind:

1. In late August, I made a phone converaation with vicw President of IFCSS
(newly elected 4th term) He, Baoping in trying to resolve the conflict
between IFCSS HQ and Zhao, Haiqing group. In that conversation, He told me
that the purpose of the HQ to establish the new account to collect money
is simply that the CSSA account cann't be monitored by IFCSS HQ and
other CSS. He emphasized that HQ have enough funding for its operation
and thus CSS in general need not to worry that the HQ will use the money
collected for other purposes.
About one month later, the HQ is crying for financail crisis! Saying some
of its members working without payment from June. Should I believe it
this time?

2. In the conversation, Mr. He assured me that the donation send to IFCSS/CSS
Protection account would be available to Zhao group. Believing this, we sent
most of our collected donation for the S1216 lobbying to IFCSS account. In
sending out the money, we stressed that the money should be available
to CSSA. Unfortunately, I finally found from both IFCSS HQ reports and
CSSA's recent reports that all the fund sent to IFCSS had not been available
to CSSA and IFCSS spent them all! Honestly speaking, I have a feeling
of being cheated on.

3. Another question lingering in my mind: in all the recent IFCSS HQ
financial reports  and its budgets, I had a feeilng that all the spending
and the income had been well balanced. So the financial crisis came seems
quite suddenly. Has someone been trying to cover the crisis up? Or my
memory is not good?

4. Personally speaking, I have not any hard feeling towards HQ staffs,
even at this time. What I expect from this posting is hoping the HQ stuffs
will improve their work in future and learn some thing from the past.
One thing is quite obvious: the current President Geng, Xiao also was
in charge of the financial matters for the 3rd term. If there had been
a financial crisis since then, why you have not been thinking of doing
some thing to overcome it in 4th term? Every one knows that donation loosely
collected from CSS individuals should not be counted as a steady income
for the operation of IFCSS, we should think of other ways to solve the
problem this time, if we are serious enough hoping so.

Minsheng
From: poppy@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: To President Bush
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:52:16 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Bush will only protect his own interests.
Why no Chinese students appeared in the Republican Convention.  Not invited ?
Not interested ?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Desperate U.S. President might do anything insane
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:29:13 GMT

In article <BvBy0E.Az1@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET> writes:
>While left behind his opponent so much,  George Bush might do
>"anything insane"  of which the worst thing would be preventing
>PR from the 80,000 CSS.
>
>I'm just wondering if that insane thing really happend, should we CSS
>rally at local government building, damn this "desperate President"
>or even burn his figure made of cardboard?
>
>Does IFCSS has any instruction about that, including not to do that,
>or the HQ and CSSA have any plan to offer emergency psychologial
>help in that case?  Just in case.
>
>Kevin
>
>-------------------------TEXT-OF-FORWARDED-MAIL--------------------------------
>Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:44:01 -0400
>Sender:       Newsletter on Chinese Community <CCNL@UTARLVM1.BITNET>
>Subject:      calm down
>
>The CNN only reported that Bush vetoed MFN bill this afternoon, which
>he has promised to since this bill was passed by house.......
>......
>I don't think he can't find
>any reason to veto S1216. However, we still need to watch him closely.
>Being left behind in the poll by large margin, Geroge Bush is in a
>desperate state. He might do anything insane.
>
>May God bless CSS
>May God bless the United States of America
How about none-CSS chinese, how about China?



Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (C. Richter)
Subject: Re: Conference, Sino-Tibetan Relations: Prospects for the future
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:00:25 GMT

In article <92Sep28.151848edt.145@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>hmmm, Nepal, maybe as long as they don't buy some military trucks and
>anticraft guns from China to "Threaten" India!  and India will swing
>its fat ass to start a total trade embargo to that poor land locked
>country.  Bhutan, I am not so sure, isn't the Indian Army there?  
>There is one more small kingdom between China & India, can't think
>of the name, had been all but annexed by India.  Come to regional
>terriorism/imperialism, you have to say that India is far ahead of
>China, behaving like a total bully in South Asian sub-continent.   

The Indian army is *not* in Bhutan.  The kingdom you are thinking of 
is Sikkim.  I think Sikkim was annexed by the British, not the Indians  --
though I stand to be corrected here.  

Whether or not India occassionally uses its trade muscle to impose 
on the Nepalis, Nepal is a soverveign country.  I have a Nepali
visitor at this moment who would vehemently attest to that fact. 

Tibet, on the other hand, was taken over by force.  This, it seems 
to me, is tantamount to "behaving like a total bully."
 
-- 
Conrad Richter                     richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Richters Herbs                     71550.3411@compuserve.com
Goodwood, ON L0C 1AO Canada        Tel 416-640-6677 / Fax 416-640-6641
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: JDWANG@CHEMVX.TAMU.EDU
Subject:      Silence
Reply-To: JDWANG@CHEMVX.TAMU.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:32:03 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Why is China-net so quiet these days?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: kxd5425@usl.edu (Du Kaisheng)
Subject: Re:      Interview by LA Times reporter (forwarded CCNL posting)
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:12:29 GMT

In article <BvnKK1.AL6@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET> writes:
>This is a report posted on the CCNL net, I forward it for those who
>subscribe only China-nt. If you also subscribe CCNL, you already
>have it.
>
>Kevin
>
>P.S.
>Please notice that the reporter who conducted the interview does not have
>the final say on whether the L.A. Times will make an editorial or not.
>The decision will be made by the editor at higher level and based on the
>story written from the interview.
>
>
>-------------------------TEXT-OF-FORWARDED-MAIL--------------------------------
>Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:28:00 PDT
>From:         "MA, SIFENG" <sma@PHYSICS.UCLA.EDU>
>Subject:      Interview by LA Times reporter
>To:           Multiple recipients of list CCNL <CCNL@UTARLVM1.BITNET>
>
>The interview by LA Times held at UCLA earlier this afternoon was
>very successful. About 20 from UCLA, USC and Caltech attended it.
>Whithin the two hours of interview, we were able to make the issues
>very clear: Promote human rights in China; Exert pressure on Chinese
>government; Release Shen Tong and others immediately; We deserve
>freedom. Many used their own or friends' stories and experience
>to get the points across. An editorial is under way (of consideration).
>
>We feel it is very important to learn how to use the media and to keep
>a close relationship with it. Although we'll have to wait to see what
>actually appears, none of us feels it'll hurt.
>
>We'd like to take this opportunity to thank those from USC and Caltech
>who attended the interview. It wasn't easy for them to drive twenty
>miles to UCLA, because the traffic in LA is incredibly terrible!
>
>UCLA Lobby Task Force

Why don't you also say that China is very poor and it needs help
desperately. Would the goverment of U.S please give some economical
break instead of using it as a means to presure China to agree
whatever America says?



Du


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Re: Likelihood of Bush's pocket veto
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 21:37:02 GMT

This is a *really* good way to make your point: "Any open minded people can
understand this." Gimme a break.

You are missing the point, Mr. Open-minded-but-totally-out-to-lunch. It is
true that the Chinese nationals are highly educated and highly intelligent,
and I do not doubt their loyalty. However, none of these attributes makes
them eligible for political asylum. Do you understand that? Political
asylum is based upon *persecution* *only*. All of these other things are 
*irrelevant*.

>
>   Once again, I want to remind you that we need to be positive and
>constructive. Even if you strongly oppose something, being sentimental
>or cynical will not acheive anything.
>

Don't push your morals or your assumptions on me. If I want to be negative,
I'll be negative. And in my opinion, I wasn't negative. I merely expressed
the observation that the Americans I knew who were aware of the bill opposed
it. This is true, and I clearly marked it with "(as far as I can tell)".

Mark Libucha

>
>  Joe
>  jingyao@columbia.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ldong@hila.hut.fi (Liyun Dong)
Subject: Re: Conference, Sino-Tibetan Relations: Prospects for the future
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:14:51 GMT

In article <BvCIoH.39A@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (C. Richter) writes:
> 
>As for the rights to self-determination in Western countries, you are 
>obviously unaware that Canada is going through the very process right 
>now of deciding whether to accept a new constitution that makes new
>accommodations to Quebec, a province populated by French-speaking people, 
>many of whom have aspirations for independence from the rest of Canada. 
>If Canada or any single province votes no in the coming referendum, many 
>expect Quebec to leave Canada.  This would be accomplished peaceably, 
>without repression, without bloodshed.  Somehow, I doubt very much that the 
>Chinese leadership would ever consider giving so-called "Autonomous
>regions" like Tibet and Xinjiang a chance to opt out of the Chinese 
>union through a democratic vote.  


If everybody in China enjoys a 5 or 6 digit salary, there may be some
discussions about whether to let people in minority region to vote for
their future.

The same is also for the West: can you believe 50 or 100 years ago, when
Canadians were earning a 2 or 3 digit salaries just as in nowadays China,
there was any possibility to let French speaking people to be independent?
Even 10 or 20 years ago, someone was talking about 'use military' if Quebec was
going to be independent.

Even today any independence issue about Quebec is still on people's lips yet.
I doubt if it will be reality in a predictable future.

I think it completely OK for anybody to be independent, but wait, only
if YOU CAN.

Huachen Pan
--------------
pan@hermes.hut.fi


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: deng@dd-ap.rhic.bnl.gov (dp)
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's case getting worse, final push for S1216!
Organization: RHIC: (Au+79)-> Little BIG BANG <-(Au+79) Upton, NY 11973
        <BvG4A9.8Ay@cs.psu.edu>
Date: 1 Oct 92 18:25:21

 
>>      May God beless Chinese Students and the United States of America!
 
  Eddie>        This slogon has been repeated many times now.  Who cares
  Eddie> about China?
 
Uncle Sam's nephews, of course;-). If everyone becomes a nephew of Uncle Sam,
then you don't have any problems, be it MFN, HR, S1216.... You see, the
best way to solve a problem is to eliminate the problem ;-).
 



 In George Bush you get experience, and with me you get- The Future!
       -- Vice President Dan Quayle in eastern Illinois 
         (LA Times 10/19/88)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Conference, Sino-Tibetan Relations: Prospects for the future
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:34:51 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1ahrdbINNgkc@eagle.natinst.com> chen@natinst.com (Dapang Chen) writes:
>I have been on the sidelines for quite some time.  It is interesting to
>see how people from different education background have vastly different
>opinions on the Tibet issue.  The chinese almost have a consensus that Tibet
>was and still is a part of China; the Tibetans are the chinises. On the other
>hand, the Candians and Americans are strongly in favor of ideas that 
>Tibet was independent country and it should be freed from Chinese rule
>altogether.  Does this strike you that we are all under the influence
>of propaganda one way or the other?

Not really.  The problem is that late twentieth century concepts of
"sovereignty" and "independence" simply do not map well to the Chinese
political situation before 1912.  You can start with exactly the same
historical facts and conclude that "Tibet was always part of China" or
"Tibet was not part of China before 1951" depending on how you apply
those concepts.

>1.  When was the last time Tibet was an independent country?  For how long?

Define "independent country."  

Tibet was not under the effective control of the Chinese central
government from 1912 to 1951, but neither was most of North China
during that time.  Before 1908, the Dalai Lama owned nominal
allegiance to the Chinese emperor, but the emperor did not intervene
in the internal affairs of Tibet.

>4.  If there was a Chinese empire that made a claim on Tibet, did she set
>up the court or other administrative agencies in Tibet?

There was an "advisor" to the Dalai Lama who was appointed by the
emperor.  Whether this advisor was the Dalai Lama's subordinate or a
supervisor depends on who you ask.

>5  Have the Tibetans made significant progresses after 1949?  The comparisons
>must be made in reference to the mainland.

Define "progress"

>6.  Does Dalai Lama really represent the  Tibetans or he is just another 
>politician or a religion figure that takes advantage of the world opinion for 
>his personal gains?

Define "represent"

>8.  Is it a national interest for China to control Tibet?  If it is, does 
>history matter?

China would have serious military problems if a hostile power (perhaps
India) were to control Tibet.  

>In conclusion, I urge all Chinese fellows and everbody to be rational.

The problem is that the debate is not on objective facts (which most
people seem to agree on).  The debate concerns subjective
interpretation of those facts, and hence gets emotional very quickly.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: echeng@phys.psu.edu (Eddie Cheng)
Subject: Re: Prof. Wen YuanKai gave a speech at Columbia U. today
Organization: Penn State, Department of Physics
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 17:42:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.052523.11648@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> yjj@neptune.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang) writes:
>He talked about the movement of economic development.  He also mentioned
>the degradation of morality, and the rise of corruption and fraudulence.
>The society creates the situation that people who cheat and use bad
>means win more.  Under this circumstance, what will people do and where
>will the society go?  People may have two reactions.
>1) You are bad, I have to worst in order to win.  Then the society goes
>down hill all the way.  Someone got to be hurt for others to gain.
>2) People rise up and say, enough is enough, let's lay out the rules
>so that the game is fair.


	There could be a third way:

Get rich first.  After the a period of heated and sometimes chaotic 
development and most people have reasonably comfortable livings, the
society starts to worry about morality and start to sort things out.

I think this was actually the route taken by most of the now-developed
countries, including Britian and USA.  Similiarly Korea and Taiwan.



	 Eddie

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Conference, Sino-Tibetan Relations: Prospects for the future
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:17:53 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Sino-Tibetan relations? When Tibet turned to be an independent country?
Or the majority of CSS regard Tibet as a country occupied by China?
Or it's just a typo? Could Mr.Jiang or someone else kindly clarify this?
Thanks.


William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Re: IFCSS NR-4042:  Senator Gorton's Speech on S1216
Reply-To: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 01:18:07 GMT
Comments: To: ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU, china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

To express your personal gratefulness to the initiative and strong support of
Senator Gorton, I recommend that representatives of each CSS organization and
individuals to write letters to the Editorial Pages of major newspapers in
Senator Gorton's home state, the State of Washington, and Washington Post.  The
American politicians get recognized and appreciated by their constituents when
their contributions and accomplishment are praised in public, and particularly
in the media.  The "Fourth Branch" of the American government, "The Media", is
the de facto most powerful part of the political machine.  Communicating through
this channel, you can pay back Senator Gorton by telling his grassroots what a
great person he is.  Making a statement in Washington Post is to acknowledge
to the entire Senate his leadership and the support of each and every Senator.
Cost you only a few minutes of your time and a few 29 cents stamps.  Try it, you
will like it!


   Editorial Pages
   Washington Post
   1150 15th Street, N.W.
   Washington, D.C. 20071
   Attn: Ms. Meg Greenfield

   Editorial Pages
   The Herald
   P.O. Box 930
   Everett, WA 98206

   Editorial Pages
   Seattle Post-Intelligencer
   P.O. Box 1909
   Seattle, WA 98119

   Editorial Pages
   Seattle Times
   P.O. Box 70
   Seattle, WA 98111

   Editorial Pages
   Spokane Spokesman-Review
   P.O. Box 2160
   Spokane, WA 99210

   Editorial Pages
   Tacoma News Tribune
   P.O. Box 11000
   Tacoma, WA 98411


BTW, it is NOT a bad idea to send a copy of your "letter to the editors" to the
White House.  Bush's staff will take notice if they see a flood of letters
about to surface in the press.  Gotta move fast though.... :-)  Now you all got
my SECRET weapon.  Hope that you will use it effectively.


Ignatius Ding
SVDC Communications
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yhan@eemips.tamu.edu (Yong Han)
Subject: Re: too far away from the topic (Re: Blood Card)
Organization: Texas A&M University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:42:18 GMT
From: utingli@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Tingli Pan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's case getting worse, final push for S1216!
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:44:11 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network

In article <BvFt0q.D70@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> JUENKUNG@RAMOTH.USC.EDU writes:
>	Dear CSS fellows:
>
>	I just get information from Hong Kong that, after a internal
>debate, Chinese leaders may not release and expell Shen Tong as they
>originally intend to do, they may offer heavier punishment to him!
>Also, the Chinese secrete police have started massive detentions and
>arrests to those who ever talked or contacted to Shen.
>
>	My uncle's friend who is a key Chinese-American lawer here ask
>me to tell those who want to publicly "cry" or push the Bill S1216:
>
>	Whenever you talk to the public about S1216, MAKE SURE YOU
>MENTION SHEN TONG'S CASE, ASK THEIR SUPPORT FOR SHEN"S RELEASE!
>
I don't thinks this a wise action for Shen Tong's earlier release. This
might help S1216, but not the other way around. You should've know CCP
better.

Tingli Pan

>	May God beless Shen Tong!
>
>	May God beless Chinese Students and the United States of America!
>
>J.K. at California
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Desperate U.S. President might do anything insane
Reply-To: "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 07:53:00 GMT
Comments: To: ccnl <ccnl@UTARLVM1.BITNET>, china-nt <china-nt@UGA.BITNET>

While left behind his opponent so much,  George Bush might do
"anything insane"  of which the worst thing would be preventing
PR from the 80,000 CSS.

I'm just wondering if that insane thing really happend, should we CSS
rally at local government building, damn this "desperate President"
or even burn his figure made of cardboard?

Does IFCSS has any instruction about that, including not to do that,
or the HQ and CSSA have any plan to offer emergency psychologial
help in that case?  Just in case.

Kevin

-------------------------TEXT-OF-FORWARDED-MAIL--------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:44:01 -0400
Subject:      calm down

The CNN only reported that Bush vetoed MFN bill this afternoon, which
he has promised to since this bill was passed by house.......
......
I don't think he can't find
any reason to veto S1216. However, we still need to watch him closely.
Being left behind in the poll by large margin, Geroge Bush is in a
desperate state. He might do anything insane.

May God bless CSS
May God bless the United States of America
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      Why my subscription is canceled?
Reply-To: "UCLA K.Y." <EDT2LRF@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 05:25:00 GMT
Comments: To: ccnl <ccnl@UTARLVM1.BITNET>, china-nt <china-nt@UGA.BITNET>

Why my subscription to this net is canceled? By whom?

Please give an explanation!

I keep record of all my postings to the net, if you don't have any
From: zyou@phakt.usc.edu (Zhongbai You)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Would Bush sing the S.2116?
Keywords: politics, bush,
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:02:06 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

In article <Sep.29.14.27.53.1992.11184@thebe.rutgers.edu> hang@thebe.rutgers.edu (Hang Jia) writes:
>
>There might be millions of points why Bush will veto the Chinese
>Protection Bill.   But, I think there will be two factors  that would
>push Bush to sing the Bill.
>
>The first one, as you all know, if he vetos the bill. It will become
>another target for Governer Clinton. It will hurt Bush's chance for 
>re-election.

   You are really insulting President Bush's sense of justice,
principle and judgement.

   Bush will veto the bill, if he believes it is unnecessary or he can
think of some alternatives...

   Bush will sign the bill, if he believe Chinese nationals in US need
this protection, if the lobby is successfull ... It really depends on
Bush's judgement and the lobby efforts.

   Why you guys always try to threaten Mr. President ?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yangze@acf3.nyu.edu (Ze Yang)
Subject: Re: Tibet
Organization: New York University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:01:22 GMT

ymj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Yuan M Jiang) writes:

>I think it's better off for Chinese to face
>the fact and to think of PEACEFULL means to resolve the issue while
>bargaining the Chinese interest to the maximum.  Chinese have better

Let me give you an even better suggestion, let us get rid off all 
boundaries between countries,  
people can move freely to any place, and enjoy the equal rights of
people live there. Then nobody will bother territory problem, how
do you think of this Mr. Jiang?

Ze Yang