HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:25:20 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <krikket.4919@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us 
(D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
> As for where the pendulum should be stopped, idealy it would be when the 
> difference of the sexes would make as little difference as the difference of 
> eye color.  (And please no smart-assed remarks along the lines of "So you 
> mean when men carry 50% of fetuses in their woumbs  (sp?). )  

Given that there is research going on to allow men to carry babies, this is not
all that far fetched.  I expect that you will see more and mroe men wanting to
bear young.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: something I just wanted to complain about
From: f00020@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:11:10 -0600
Reply-To: f00020@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
 <2A65EED2.17709@noiro.acs.uci.edu>,<1992Jul17.011549.3289@csus.edu>
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

Here is my opinion of men and women in today's world.  I strongly
feel that BOTH men and women have been hurt by patriarchal
influences.  Women are treated like objects (and worse) and men
are made to feel that they should treat women that way.  For
any of this to get better we ALL have to look at society and
decide on a course of action that will be of benifit to ALL of
us.

Blessed Be,
Ronda
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Ancient Greeks was (stereotypes - and a request)
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:48:20 GMT
	<12405@inews.intel.com> <2A6CFDB8.7997@noiro.acs.uci.edu>

>>On a related issue, some people have speculated that early Greece was
>>matriarchal and the men were forced to worship the Goddess and consult the
>>elder matriarch for important decisions like who to marry. The theory goes
>>that the men got sick of this and subverted the Goddess by turning her into
>>a Goddess of war and the rest was HIStory, as he says. Who knows, maybe women
>>do have a vicious side and have just been pretending to be sweet all these 
>>years, I just don't see it.

In article <2A6CFDB8.7997@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>I'm inclined to doubt this only because I've read TONS of shit on this
>and haven't reached this conclusion.  I've seen that it was brought from
>the outside.  What references do you cite?  I'd like to read up on this
>to understand it more. 


I must apologize that I do not have references and my knowledge of this goes
back a few more years than I'm willing to admit. I didn't make this up
though, there is a lot of info on this issue. It was a big one that got 
started when the Germans and British began investigating Greece and
Mesopotamia. From a patriarchal perspective, there is something really
strange about early Greece, in particular those who worshipped Athena. The
artwork that has been uncovered is dominated by women, if men are present
they are in the background as simple figures on a smaller scale. So the
art work of the early Greeks is clearly matriarchal, and yet Greece became
quite patriarchal as the era of warfare, made more practical by the
discovery of and wider use of bronze, began. Athena became known as the 
Goddess of war, second in command to a warrior God. A lot of scholars have
tried to make sense out of the remains of the early Greeks, it would be
fair to say that probably no one has yet. Similar things appear in
Mesopotamia where it looks as if what was was a Goddess worshipping 
agriculturalistic society that was invaded from the surrounding hills to
the north by the Caucasions and their Indo-European relatives and to the
south by the Semitic tribes. These invaders were warrior nomadic people
and the cultures mixed and the rest is history. The evidence of matriarchy
in the past is mostly speculation. The problem is that the Romans developed
this technique of studing the past and slanting it to suit your purpose, so
a lot of what may have been may have been covered up or destroyed. After all,
the word is HIStory, not HERstory. The Romans and the Germans and the British
were looking for evidence of brutish warrior tribes to justify their
dominance of the world. Any matriarchal stuff was just pornography. And
now you know ... the rest ... of the story. Good DAY!

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares)
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 00:27:28 GMT

In article <2A6F1FDD.21544@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <meiDoB4w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>there are still butch/femme relationships, but they are very 
>>much in the minority these days, although some of us liek to joke about 
>>"who's the butch" in practically every relationship.  but calling onself 
>>butch or femme doesn't really describe one's preferences in a mate.  
>
>Gotcha #2.

Hi, just wanted to add a few comments from the femme perspective.  First,
I would add a warning to Ailsa's comment above that no one,
straight/gay/lesbian/bi, should make *any* assumptions about who does what
to whom (sexually or otherwise!) based on butch/femme appearances. ;-}
Second, I've been femme since before I knew what one was, too.  I choose
my appearance to please myself, not for any butch or other lesbian.  I
stopped trying to look like what (I thought) would please others when I
got rid of my "implied male" (another way of putting what someone - Sally?
- was saying in a different thread: who really looks at us when we look in
the mirror?).  What is harder than putting up with the usual harrassment
from men (butches get it a little differently, don't they Ailsa?), is not
being recognized by other dykes. :-(  Third, butches are not androgynous,
another lesbian subgroup (currently the fashion). 

>T'anks!
>
>Janis
>
>>p.p.s. if you are really interested i n the subject, i highly recommend 
>>_a restricted country_ by joan nestle.  it shouldn't be too hard to find. 
>> i got it out from the school library.
>
>I'll do that.

You're in for a treat.  FYI Ailsa, Nestle has edited an anthology on
butch/femme which has just been published.  Contributions from your
favorite lesbian writers!  I'm saving my pennies!!! 

BB,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:08:45 GMT

In article <meiDoB4w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>> In article <4gHBoB6w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
>> 
>> [among other things]
>> 
>> > . . . but there is definite privelege attached to being butch.  
>> >peopl pay more attention to me when i speak than the do to femmes, and i 
>> >get taken a lot more seriously, for instance.
>> > 
>> >                                       -ailsa
>> >
>> 

[blah blah blah . . . ]

>> How come a large part of homosexual relationships do the butch/femme
>> thing?  

[blah blah blah . . . [

>they don't, actually.  butch is a role i embrace, beacuse it is in my 
>case just a word that defines who i was anyway.  i was butch before i 
>ever HEARD the word butch.  but roleplaying such as this, where everyone 
>is supposed to take on one or the other went out with the women's 
>movement.  

Gotcha.  It sounds like the way I felt about the word Witch.  I use it
because I've realized (at LONG last) that it's what I was all along. 

>there are still butch/femme relationships, but they are very 
>much in the minority these days, although some of us liek to joke about 
>"who's the butch" in practically every relationship.  but calling onself 
>butch or femme doesn't really describe one's preferences in a mate.  

Gotcha #2.


[deleted for bandwidth -- pity.  It was a good post.]
 
>> Just a-wonderin' . . . 
>> 
>just attemptin' an answer...  B)
>
>> Blessings,
>> Janis
>                                            -ailsa

T'anks!

Janis

>p.p.s. if you are really interested i n the subject, i highly recommend 
>_a restricted country_ by joan nestle.  it shouldn't be too hard to find. 
> i got it out from the school library.
>

I'll do that.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Body Count/Cop Killer was (stereotypes - and a request)
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:26:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <12478@inews.intel.com>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) 
writes:

> Oh cold, so cold. Isn't that racism or antipolicism? 

Racist? No.

Anti-policism?  May well be.  What's your point?

> Aren't you worried
> about being investigated by the FBI and CIA for that statement? 

I went to Antioch.  The FBI investigated me long ago.

> Like? Care to offer up some lyrics? And who gave those Black boys those
> rock guitars? Who let 'em in the clubs, did you make 'em pay? This stuff
> just ain't cool, that Black boy played so good, he took my girl!

Good example you priovided.

> Oh, I don't know. Maybe you're right. I'm glad he took it into the realm of
> heavy metal instead of hip-hop. 

Given that I prefer metal to hip-hop, so am I.

> world order? I've heard some of the lyrics to Body Count and I have to
> admit, they are a little offensive, 

There's a lot of folks out there who desperately need to be offended.

> but then again I've never really thought
> of heavy metal as particularly socially redeaming. 

That makes one of us.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:25:36 GMT

In article <70282@apple.Apple.COM> russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams) writes:
>In article <2A6B36DE.16386@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>[A lot of impassioned and well-reasoned stuff too long to quote]
>
>I have to agree with Janis: when I hear people  complaining about
>affirmative action or men complaining about women-only
>groups, etc. my reaction is: get real. You're just a selfish kid
>who's had all the toys and is complaining about having to share them.

This reminds me of a time when I heard one of the students in my astro
class at PSU complaining to his buddy about the Society for Women
Engineers.  "Man," he said -- eloquent as all his ilk are -- "that's
discrimination.  Why can't I have a society for MALE engineers?"
Evidently, he was ignorant of the fact that any corporation he chose to
work for would be a de facto society for male engineers.

>As for thousands of years of guilt, though, I don't accept it. I'm
>not big on guilt in the first place, and I've only had 36 years to
>accumulate it. I don't believe in "even unto the
>third and fourth (or whatever it is) generations". I'm responsible
>(a word I much prefer) for what *I* do, not for what anybody else
>does, and certainly not for what dead people did. 

I can agree with the intent of this -- it's a damned shame that today's
men are stuck dealing with the problems perpetrated by their long dead
great-to-the-nth-grandfathers.  But, they are also perpetrators if they
do nothing to right the situation.  Too much of this sounds like, "It
ain't my mess, so I'm not going to help clean it up."

I'm not accusing you of saying this, as it doesn't seem to me that you
are.  But there is a lot of this attitude around.

>A history of 
>thousands of years of oppression of women by men certainly affects 
>women (and men) differently than would a single lifetime's worth,
>but that doesn't add up to an interest-bearing guilt account. 

There is no guilt for what long-dead people did.  There IS guilt in not
working to rectify the situation, just throwing up your hands and
saying, "Well, *I* didn't do it!"  Again, I am not accusing you of
saying this.  We just have to be on guard for this kind of mentality.

>Most would say that Hitler bore more guilt than the millions who
>followed him, but his existence gave others the responsibility
>to oppose him. I'm not guilty of thousands of years of male
>domination, but I have a responsibility to help change it.

What is the saying that goes something like "Evil comes about when good
people do nothing to oppose it?"  Hitler was guilty only for starting
the ball rolling.  The millions who listened and either subscribed or
did nothing are guilty for allowing the mess to get as big as it did.

Blessings,
Janis

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: gryphon@openage.openage.com (The Golden Gryphon)
Subject: Re: Love and Trust
Organization: Open Age, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:46:00 GMT

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

>Since these two stories seemed to be almost identical, it seems to
>me that both groups of people were tapping into the same energy. 
>I was wondering if anyone else out there has any similar experiences
>to report.

My former employer tried to sue me out of business when I started my own
company.  I was hostile to them for a while, and then I just decided to send
love and harmoney in their direction.  Then they left me alone.

-- 
The Golden Gryphon 				gryphon@openage.COM
Solve a man's problem and he has 1 less.        No incumbents in 92.
Teach a man to think, and all his problems are less.
Openage - The Premier SCO UNIX integrator in the Washington D.C. area
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:48:35 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <BrrrL9.E7z@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
> 
>>I suspect Janis is right.  I doubt that very many people would want
>>to post to one, but not the other.  On the other hand, it might
>>be useful to *move* the group to soc.religion.wicca, so it isn't an
>>"alt" group any longer.
> 
>>To me, the real question is this:  how many people feel that alt.pagan
>>is not an appropriate place to post things, and would prefer to post
>>the stuff to soc.religion.wicca or alt.pagan.wicca INSTEAD OF alt.pagan?
>>(NOT in addition to it)
> 
> Having thought about this since my first suggestion, I would prefer s.r.w over
> a.w or a.p.w.  
> 
> I do not feel that a.p is presently an inappropriate place to post things, but
> if s.r.w came into being I would read both, but rarely make original posts to
> a.p.  The Wiccan-specific material I have posted has generally gotten ignored
> by most folk (or at least not responded to).  In s.r.w, I might have a real
> chance to get meaningful critism.
> 
> I would very rarely crosspost between a.p and s.r.w--probabaly about as often
> as I presently crosspost between a.p and alt.magick.  It happens, but it is
> not the norm.
> 
> If s.r.w ws formed, I would not want a.p to go away.  It should exist so that
> there is a format for all those pagans out there who are not Wiccan.

And exist so that there is a place where people who associate themselves 
with wicca and those who do not can talk to each other, discuss general points,
politics, and all the kinds of talk that goes on just now!

I would read, and sometimes post to, both groups, but the posts would be 
different. I'd like to have a place to discuss ritual, compare  my practices
with those of others, get and give ideas, and so on. I'd also like to 
talk about philosophies and how (for instance) feminist wicce differs 
from other traditions . . . s.r.w (or whatever) would be a forum for this.

>               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                                Br'anArthur
> 
> Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
-- 
Blessings,

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<21510@sybase.sybase.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:04:28 GMT

In article <21510@sybase.sybase.com> 
leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster) writes:
>I heard a similar story; in NY or some such place, they had a George and
>Dragon play, and all the little kids were rooting "DRA-GON! DRA-GON!
>DRA-GON!"  As somebody who has myself been a Caput Draconis as part of a
>ritual, I can certainly appreciate that sentiment... ;-)

I find it interesting that in the West, we are always trying to slay our
dragons who are the symbols of all that we hate and fear. Check out what
they do with dragons in the East sometime. You might find it
interesting. I think the German philosopher Nietzsche was onto this when
he said, "Don't caste out the Devil in you, because you might be
throwing out the best part." In the West we try to caste out, in the
East they turn the energy around, towards all humanity. A different
perspective, something to think about, that's all.
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:20:11 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin


On the subject of creating an alt.wicca newsgroup, I would ask just
what topic(s) do we want to see here?  Is the idea to be more specific
than paganism?  To just include Wicca in all its various forms, but
omit that which is not Wiccan?

The reason I am asking, of course, is that I don't consider myself
Wiccan (although many of you might consider me as such if I told you
what I did and how I believed).  Wicca to me is a much more specific
word than Witchcraft; I consider myself a Witch but not a Wiccan.

So I guess I want to know whose definition of Wicca will be used inthe
naming of this newsgroup, if indeed it gets off the ground.

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Subject: Re: fantasies & attitudes...
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:39:11 GMT

>In article <2A649D41.5697@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
>Maria Cortese) writes:
>> Those movies and actors appeal to a MALE audience.  I've rarely heard a
>> woman talk about how much she loved the Arnold movies -- Terminator and
>> all the Rambo movies and their ilk are seen by MEN.  THAT'S why women
>> don't give a damn about Jean-Claude whoever-the-hell-he-is.
>
>We must hang out with different women.  I know several off the top of my head
>who enjoy ogling J-CvD and DL both.
>Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
>HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
>HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |

I just thought I'd add, for the record, that I'm a woman and I'm a
great fan of Arnol and Jean Claud Van Damm (Damn).  I don't see any
of those movies as any kind of an ideal, I see them as just plain
fun.  I also love Kung-Fu Flicks.  I know a lot of women who don't
like those movies, but after I show them they feel fine and actually
like the movies (is it only looking at one side?  is it prejudice?).

Anyway, I just don't want to be included in a group and have it be
displayed inaccurately.
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: I'm leaving Town...
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:35:15 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

Since I've become rather wrapped up in the discussions here, and will be
skipping town for a few days, I thought I would mention that fact here.

Reason:  The system I'm running only has 40 meg HD space, and is trying to
hold 80-90 newsgroups, and therefore the turnaround time on the posts is
ridicously short.  Therefore many of the messages will scroll off before I
get a chance to read 'em.  Several will probably be addressed to me.  (At
least I'd hope so...  This does sound a bit egotistical, doesn't it?  Ahh
well, that wasn't my intention...)

Also, it has been pointed out to me via Email from a faithful reader of mine
(Yes, I was pleasently shocked and suprised that someone told me that she
was a faithful reader!  *Gloat*  :) ) that there is a problem with my system
overhere (well, it's also been pointed out from other corners in the last few
days...) that my system auto-formatting for the messages is a bit screwed up.

Please bear with me.  I'm going to be making an effort to manually put in
those carriage returns, but if I screw up, it's nearly impossible for me to
catch from my end...  Please bear with me!

Ahh well, see everyone sometime next week, as I'm off to Congenial IV, in
Madison, WI.  If you happen to stop by, look for me at the DucKon party
(as I will be hosting it...).

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"