HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: American English
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:21:19 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <BzMGnI.37u@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca writes:
>In <BzJpFu.AG5@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>       To stir up a little dust, I proclaimed a while ago that the
>>language the Americans use, isn't English and shouldn't be termed so.
>>Immediately, indignant Americans pointed out that I was mistaken and
>>how the language they speak is indeed English. 
>
>How does 'Linguistics According to Mirashi', resolve the following?
>
>On the one hand, The Mirashi Order regards the British as the final
>authorities on English.  The British (common man and linguist alike)
>call the (predominant) American language, English. So bowing to their
>superiority, a Mirashist must also call it English.
>
>On the other hand, Mirashi himself proclaims repeatedly that the American
>language is not English, himself contradicting the normal British
>usage of 'English'.
>
>What's a would-be disciple to do?
>
>Werner

Can't you see that I did it deliberately? I proclaimed that the American
language isn't English so that I would get people strongly affirming
the fact that they *do* speak English. Well then, if you *do* speak
English then why do you defy standard English? (No....the argument
"there is no standard English, isn't good enough.")

                                                          Mandar.
-- 
"Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman)
Subject: Re: Capital "I"
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:07:30 GMT

mckay@alcor.concordia.ca (John McKay) writes:

>It seems a sign of our times that the capital 9th letter of English is
>frequently written with a dot upon its head. I have thought of this as
>a sign of ignorance. Does anyone know of the history of this affliction?

I have always thought of this as the mildest degree of semiliteracy.
It appears that most people in this country are taught to read & write
both script and roman, but to write only script.  When they are told
to "print", they are cast back on their own devices, and produce a
more or less random mixture of capitals & lowercase.  Why the letter i
should be the first, and often the only, letter to suffer from this
confusion is unclear to me, tho; perhaps it really is a special
phenomenon.  One possibility is that people think of "dotting one's
i's" as a symbol of carefulness in writing, and so they feel slovenly
in omitting it, even when it doesn't belong.

I don't know what you mean by "our times", but schoolchildren were
doing this when I was in grade school, almost 50 years ago.
-- 
        Joe Fineman             jcf@world.std.com
        239 Clinton Road        (617) 731-9190
        Brookline, MA 02146
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: American English
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:55:29 GMT

In article <BzpByH.D30@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca () writes:
:(Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
:
:>Can't you see that I did it deliberately? I proclaimed that the American
:>language isn't English so that I would get people strongly affirming
:>the fact that they *do* speak English. 
:
:And you needed a few hundred posts before you were satisfied? Or did the
:fact that not a single English poster backed you up finally get
:through to you.

Reminds me of a certain Ly Hoang of 'Ly-ers Gambit' infamy.  You still
around, Ly?  Still got it in for me? ;-)

G
From: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Tissue of lies...
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:11:00 GMT
Reply-To: michael.hagerty@nitelog.com (Michael Hagerty)
Organization: Nitelog BBS - Monterey, CA - 408-655-1096

An interesting discussion today went astray when the phrase "tissue of
lies" was used.  I am curious as to the origin of this bit of quaintery.

Regards, Mikey (michael.hagerty@nitelog.com)

 * JABBER v1.3B1 #B042 * F u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb prgmmng n c!
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: chaps
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:01:35 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <baron.92.724957187@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:

# Can anyone tell me whether the gender neutral use of chaps in the
# UK or elsewhere has met any resistance?  The analogous use of *guy*
# or *guys* in the US has had a split reception, some people arguing
# that it is perfectly neutral, others saying it is yet one more
# example of a masculine doubling as a generic.

Are you aware of anyone who uses "guys" for females or mixed groups
in the third person?  In my experience it's always second person, so
that no ambiguity is possible, since the sex of the addressees is
known.

Well, theoretically it could be used to address the males alone in a
mixed group, but I don't believe I've ever heard such a usage.  In my
suage, in speaking to a mixed group, "Do you guys want to go bowling?"
would unambiguously address the entire group.  If I wanted to single
out the males, I'd have to say something like "OK, addressing just the
guys now [third person!], do you want to go bowling tonight?"

David Johns
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Comments in source code
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:05:32 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Dec29.060209.17732@g2syd.genasys.com.au> roberts@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Robert Swan) writes:
[re comments in C and FORTRAN source code]
<[...] in the newer code, comments tend to be complete sentences and
<(here's the part that interests me) speak in terms of the 1st person
<plural ...  `We need to get the filename', `We can't proceed unless it's
<the right type'.  [...]
<
<Who are `we'.  Me and my program?  Me and the other programmers?
<The royal we (since I am creator of the universe in my program,
<I suppose I could put on royal airs)?

I perceive it as the so-called author's "we", standing for `I and my
readers'.  Recall that programs are written to be read by humans.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: K Street
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:05:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.090525.4356@osf.org> sp@osf.org (Simon Patience) writes:
>In article <Bzqz8z.2Jt@techbook.com>, dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>> I ran across a reference to K Street in a recent Economist.  The exact
>> context was that Capitol Hill and K Street would be pleased with
>> Bentsen's appointment as Treasury Secretary.
>> 
>> Oviously this is metonomy, but for what?  I assume that this is refering
>> to K Street in Washington, D.C., but what's on K Street.  My guess is
>> that it's the headquarters of the Treasury Dept. and that this is
>> refering to the rank and file Treasury bureaucrats.

My family were long-time residents of DC (I was born there), so I
promise to ask.  Just minutes ago I couldn't have cared less, but
now I *have* to know.

>> 
>> This also reminded me of a short list that I have of streets that have
>> become metonyms or toponyms.
>> 
>>     Wall St.
>>     Madison Ave.
>>     Fleet St.
>>     Skid Road  an actual road in Seattle
>
>Isn't that Skid Row?

Skid Row is a corruption of Skid Road.  Has to do with a method of
transporting tree logs, I believe.

>
>>     Grub Street  my dictionary tells me that this referes to literary
>> 	    hacks, but I've never heard it used.
>
>nor have I.

I have, but can't provide any references.  Therefore you may feel
free to assume that I am lying.  :-)  I remember seeing it in the
form "...Grub Street hacks..." (what a surprise).

>
>> Any additions?
>
>Threadneedle St (probably UK specific, it's where the Bank of England is)

Nice museum there (and it's free).  Only blighted by the English habit
of bringing up The War (pick one) at every f'ing opportunity.
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 25 Dec 92 02:29:30 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <BzJMLp.84o@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:

#       Secondly, I am NOT prejudiced against American English. I see
# nothing wrong with this variant, just as I see nothing wrong with
# Indian English; but I am humble enough to accept a standard
# English, the very existence of which you deny.

No, no, no!

We just deny the right of someone who knows nothing about language, or
about English, or about the English, to tell us what that standard is.

Fair enough, old chap?

David

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: K Street
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:17:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.090525.4356@osf.org> sp@osf.org (Simon Patience) writes:
>In article <Bzqz8z.2Jt@techbook.com>, dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>> I ran across a reference to K Street in a recent Economist.  The exact
>> context was that Capitol Hill and K Street would be pleased with
>> Bentsen's appointment as Treasury Secretary.

>> Oviously this is metonomy, but for what?  I assume that this is refering
>> to K Street in Washington, D.C., but what's on K Street.  My guess is
>> that it's the headquarters of the Treasury Dept. and that this is
>> refering to the rank and file Treasury bureaucrats.

>> This also reminded me of a short list that I have of streets that have
>> become metonyms or toponyms.

>>     Wall St.
>>     Madison Ave.
>>     Fleet St.
>>     Skid Road  an actual road in Seattle

>Isn't that Skid Row?

>>     Grub Street  my dictionary tells me that this referes to literary
>> 	    hacks, but I've never heard it used.

The Bowery.
Downing St.
47th St.

>Threadneedle St (probably UK specific, it's where the Bank of England is)

Roger

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca ()
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:28:30 GMT

In <BzJpFu.AG5@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>       To stir up a little dust, I proclaimed a while ago that the
>language the Americans use, isn't English and shouldn't be termed so.
>Immediately, indignant Americans pointed out that I was mistaken and
>how the language they speak is indeed English. 

How does 'Linguistics According to Mirashi', resolve the following?

On the one hand, The Mirashi Order regards the British as the final
authorities on English.  The British (common man and linguist alike)
call the (predominant) American language, English. So bowing to their
superiority, a Mirashist must also call it English.

On the other hand, Mirashi himself proclaims repeatedly that the American
language is not English, himself contradicting the normal British
usage of 'English'.

What's a would-be disciple to do?

Werner
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: R0264@vmcms.csuohio.edu
Subject: Re: _1984_ and "they"
Organization: CSU
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:17:40 GMT

In article <12215@kesson.ed.ac.uk>
iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
 
>
>
>I have just finished reading _Nineteen Eighty-Four_.  The book is
>written in "he"-English, from cover to cover, except for _one_
>occurrence of singular "they".  It is in Part 3, Chapter 6, where
>Julia says:
>
>  `You _want_ it to happen to the other person.
>   You don't give a damn what they suffer.'
>
>I'm pretty sure this is the only one (I've been reading very closely).
>I haven't read anything else by G Orwell, so I don't know what happens
>in his other books, though I intend to find out in the very near future.
>In the meantime I invite comments from the group.
>
>--
> `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
>Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
>* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
>* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
 
It seems to me that "the other person" was used meaning really, "other
people", just because it is a familiar figure of speech.
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: A gender neutral pronoun
Date: 25 Dec 92 18:53:38 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <38043@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
>There is one contingent of anti-theys who claim (1) that the use of a
>plural pronoun with a grammatically singular antecedent introduces
>unnecessary ambiguity into the language and (2) that this usage is
>linguistic engineering -- i.e., an unnatural imposition for social
>purposes.  My "research" was meant to counter these claims,

So did you manage to counter the first claim?  Number agreement is one
of the sources of information used for anaphora resolution.

Re the second claim, I wonder whether it is more frequently made by
anti-theys or pro-theys.  When I first encountered singular "they", it
was introduced to me as a brilliant invention of Big Sister that one
had to use because gender-neutral "he" was "sexist".  I had no reason
to doubt that, so I didn't bother to consult the _OED_ or anything.
Besides, singular "they" is frequently being sold side by side with
such obvious FemiNewspeak artifacts as "E(m/ir)", "hir" and the like.
I have yet to hear a pro-they express an attitude towards those.

Sometimes marketing matters more than origin.  In many European
languages the word for `turkey' means `Turkish/Egyptian/Indian bird'.
Now of course the turkey is originally an American bird, but the
Middle East was strongly involved in its marketing, so its true origin
ceased to matter.  In the same way, the effort that the PC people put
into selling singular "they" has the power to make it, for all
practical purposes, a PC word.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: morris@rtf.bt.co.uk (Neil Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: An apology
Date: 1 Jan 93 15:49:35 GMT
Organization: BT Customer Systems, Brighton, UK

In article <38090@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:

>Another interesting one is "go", as in "go get a pizza".  It can form
>a compound verb like this only if it is in its basic form:
>
>        I'm going to go get a pizza.
>        Why don't you go get a pizza.
>        You would go get a pizza, wouldn't you.
>        I started to go get a pizza.
>        I had my friend go get a pizza.
>

To my (English) ear, a 'go-second verb' compound grates as the 'go'
often adds nothing to the meaning. In the above, the example using "I'm
going" confuses the 'go-get' examples. Substituting "I'm about to", I
would use

	I'm about to go and get a pizza - I am indicating that I am both
	going and getting a pizza
	
or just

	I'm about to get a pizza - the fact that I am going is either
	not interesting or obvious.
	
but then I've never been described as a go-getter.
 
-- 
Neil Morris                                     morris@btcs.bt.co.uk
BT Customer Systems, Brighton.
From: kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: 'Professor' in Canada - what does it mean?
Date: 28 Dec 92 18:12:54 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article: 13792 of alt.usage.english, gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk
(Graham Toal) says, in part:

>I think the equivalent in America is a personal chair.

On this side of the Atlantic, Graham, a personal chair is more often
known by the title "recliner" or, more formally, "Strat-o-lounger".
We don't call them professors much.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bjones@denitqm.uswest.com (Brent Jones)
Subject: Re: Men & maids
Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:10:52 GMT

In article <Bzqtvy.67I@demon.co.uk>, gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham
Toal) wrote:
> 
> 
> Well bowl me over - I had a batman once who was a woman.
> 
> G
> (I bet that's stumped you)

If I remember my Sax Rohmer correctly, a "batman" is some sort of personal
servent, usually with the connotation of an indiginous native working
for a colonial administrator. Close?

--
Brent Jones, Lead Tech. Editor, U S WEST IT, bjones@denitqm.uswest.com
"of beautiful weeds that cannot hide from the farmer and helplessly have 
to watch the shadow of his simian stoop leave mangled flowers in its wake, 
as the monstrous darkness approaches."--V. Nabokov _Signs and Symbols_
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Goodbye
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 03:11:05 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

Hello,

   I think I am just plain tired of continuing to argue with
people. I wish I could reply to all your individual articles but
I have grown excessively weary of debate. I'll henceforth flame
only those morons who challenge the spelling of "favour". I feel
I am just wasting my energy on this newgroup. A short break
will do me good.

Goodbye...and oh, yes...I almost forgot....

WISH YOU ALL A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!


                                           Peace....

                                                          Mandar.


P.S. : Followups to this article and my previous articles will be
       ignored. 

-- 
"Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:18:16 GMT

In article <38018@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
:maybe I'd suggest that you are surrounded by a higher percentage of
:pedants there at Edinburgh than are generally extant in the
:population.

That's probably true :-)

btw was that a remarkably precise use of the word 'extant' or were you just
using the phrase wrongly as an elegant variation of 'than generally exists'?
[or perhaps even as a circumlocution to avoid the problem of number agreement
with 'percentage'/'pedants' and 'exists'/'exist'?]
From: jmp@moscom.com (Joe Palumbos)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Comments in source code
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:31:58 GMT
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.3 beta PL7]

Robert Swan (roberts@g2syd.genasys.com.au) wrote:
: 
: [....]
: However, in the newer code, comments tend to be complete sentences and
: (here's the part that interests me) speak in terms of the 1st person
: plural ...  `We need to get the filename', `We can't proceed unless it's
: the right type'.  [....]
: 
: Who are `we'.  Me and my program?  Me and the other programmers?
: The royal we (since I am creator of the universe in my program,
: I suppose I could put on royal airs)?
: 
: Has anyone else noticed anything similar?  Or am I just losing my
: marbles?
: 


For the last 16 years (i.e. since I've been programming), I've done 
this also, and never stopped to think who I mean by 'we', until now.  

In my mind, I am writing the comments for the benefit of either the next 
person to maintain the code, or for myself, after I've forgotten what 
the hell I was doing the first time around.  Even in the latter case, 
I may as well be a different person anyway, since in either case, I 
don't know what the author had in his head at the time he wrote the 
code.

Therefore, when I write 'we', I am referring to both of us:  Me, the 
author, and the kind person in the future, looking at my code.

-regards, from both of us.

-- 
Joe Palumbos	jmp@moscom.com		{rit,tropix,ur-valhalla}!moscom!jmp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: "peter curran" <peter.curran@canrem.com>
Subject: k street
Reply-To: "peter curran" <peter.curran@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: alt
Date: 31 Dec 92 09:27:29 EST

WX>Subject: Re: K Street

In article <1992Dec30.135951.11004@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
          wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes...

>> News reports seem to me to use just the street name, but political dramas
>> always use `number ten' to distinguish it from number 11 (The Chancellor of the
>> Exchequer) and number 12 (the whips' office).
>>
>Another one which has just sprung too mind:
>Whitehall for the British civil service.

Might as well throw some Canadian examples into the pot...

Ottawa:
Sussex Drive - Residence of the Prime Minister, the Governor General
(head of state) and various embassies and the like.  Used with
various meanings, depending on which of these features is being
emphasized.

Wellington Street - Parliament Hill, Bank of Canada, various buildings
full of important silly servants, and, until recently, the US Embassy.
All sort of meanings fall out of this.


Toronto:
Bay Street - comparable to Wall Street

Queen Street West - artsie district - black leather, brew pubs, and
occasionally even some art.

Spadina - the "needle trade" district, & Chinatown (part 1).

Parliament Street (a.k.a. Cabbagetown) - area where Eastern
European immigrants used to settle.

The Danforth - area where Greeks used to settle.

Toronto is actually full of references of this sort, because it
is perceived as a city of small neighbourhoods, each with a distinct
character, based on the original settlers, etc.  Newcomers (like
me) have some trouble recognizing these components, but old
timers assure me they are fundamental features of the city.  The
street names become references to the type of people associated
with them.


Winnipeg:
Portage & Main - the main intersection.  Sometimes used as a
reference to "middle Canada" (somewhat like "will it play in
Peoria?").  Also used as a reference to winter weather, because it
is perceived (not *quite* correctly) as the coldest intersection
in the world.  ("Portage" is pronounced "port-edge," of course.)

Peter Curran
Usenet: peter.curran@canrem.com     RIME: CRS (#118)
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #12339  
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english