From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: OOBE or just vivid imagination
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 07:34:03 GMT

So it turns out that Robert McGrath and I are not in agreement about some
things.  Oh well.  Here we go, then...

In <1992Nov6.214534.6660@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
	(Robert McGrath) writes:

> In article <1992Nov6.055629.21882@gnosys.svle.ma.us>, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
	(Gary S. Trujillo) writes in part:

>> Yes, I know, these hypotheses sound fantastic, but I find Dr. Sheldrake's
>> gedanken experiment which demonstrates the fallacy in our conventional
>> assumptions to be a particularly fascinating one...

>> ...The state of brain science is simply
>> not sufficiently advanced to demonstrate that what we observe about our
>> own mental functioning all takes place "inside the box."

>    1.  There is substantial evidence of what psychologists would call
>    the "Neural-identity-hypothesis".  There are 150 years of research,
>    thousands of studies, which show that mental experiences are corellated
>    to physilogical events in the nervous systems.  This body of evidence
>    cannot just be dismissed as "occam's razor".

I am not disagreeing with correlations, but with any statment that says that
consciousness has been proven *to reside* within the confines of the physical
organ of the brain.  Further, I don't know any way to establish that it does.
Sheldrake's interpretation of certain experiments would seem to suggest that
consciousness may not be localized to the brain.  There is no problem accomo-
dating the quite correct observation (which I cited in my article) that one
can produce effects on perception and behavior by stimulating regions of the
brain.  Clearly the brain is somehow related to mind and consciousness, but
the state of our present knowledge is not sufficiently advanced to be able
to demonstrate the nature of that relationship.  That's all I'm saying.  I
would not attempt to disagree with the fact that "mental experiences are
correlated with physiological events...," but I'm unsure about the cause of
those events.

>    2.  The gedanken experiment you describe is faulty, at least as you
>    describe it.  It would not be difficult for a cognitive psychologist
>    to determine that the TV is a receiver not the originator of the
>    signals.  In fact, psycholgists would quickly determine the wavelengths
>    and basic forms of the signals received by the TV.  This is called
>    "perceptual psychology"!

Please don't take the analogy too literally.  We happen to be lucky enough to
have equipment which can detect the signals being received by the television
receiver - which is no great surprise, since TV is a human invention.  We may
not have any means of reliably detecting whatever it is that relates the
brain to Sheldrake's "morphogenetic field," however.

>    3.  You are under-informed about psychology.  Please do not
>    get carried away with fascinating, popular pseudo-intellectual
>    stuff like Sheldrake, without learning something about what
>    serious students of cognitive sciences have learned over the years.

I don't need any particular technical expertise in order to use basic
logic, which is all that's required to see through simple fallacies.

>    And please do not dismiss the brilliant work that has been done
>    by hundreds of smart, clever, and hard working investigators.

I wouldn't dare.  But we'd have to talk at a greater level of detail before
there would be a danger of my doing so.  We'd really need to hear a debate
between Sheldrake and his detractors before being able to talk meaningfully
about this subject.  I merely wanted to point out the fact that the way we
look at the OBE phenomenon is a function of the models we use.

> Placing OBEs in the realm of cognitive psychology actually tells ME quite
> a lot about them because I know quite a bit about cognitive psychology.

"When the only tool one has is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
:-)

> ...dreams, images, and OBEs share these same
> characteristics--there is no evidence that any part of the experience
> comes from any source other than previous experience and constructive
> imagination.

Well, I don't think we've heard the evidence yet that supports your claim.
Again, we need to get down to an analysis of the experiments and how they
have been evaluated by those conducting them and those offering other in-
terpretations.  I'm looking forward to the time when we can start doing so.

> ...what we DO know about cognitive psychology provides
> useful insights into OBEs.

Doubtless.  But the hard part is figuring out which part of what
cognitive psychology tells us is useful and which part isn't.

> I'm not sure what you include in "the kinds of events studied by
> parapsychology".  But OBEs actually are a QUITE distinct phenomenon.

Well, there appears to be some overlap - but I think it might be best if
we leave that subject aside for the moment, merely to make things easier
to talk about.  I think the phenomenon needs to be looked at as something
unique until we have good evidence that suggests otherwise.

>> My overall sense, though, is that we're both struggling together
>> to understand what's going on here - not that we're taking the most mean-
>> ingful or productive approach, since it's based on analysis and a fairly
>> conventional logic.

> Au contraire, this is the ONLY meaningful and productive approach.
> IMHO. :-)

Well, productive is as productive does.  That is, it all depends on what
you are hoping to produce how you look at the subject of productivity and
meaning.  It seems valid for someone to say that the only thing he or she
wants to produce is a personal experience that yields some additional
evidence on what it means to be human.  For such a purpose, analysis and
conventional logic might not only be non-productive, they might actually
be considered counter-productive.

What do others feel on this subject - or is this debate going to just be
between myself and Robert?

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body