From: stabosz@chopin.udel.edu (Rae Stabosz)
Subject: Re: Church of England & women priests
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:51:04 GMT

In article <92Nov12.204608est.9084@rock.db.toronto.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes:
>U14663@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>>And lest someone say that a practice of many centuries
>>is proof of God's will, I can only say that repeatedly doing something
>>wrong doesn't make it right.
>
>While a "practice of many centuries" is not necessarily proof positive of 
>God's will, the suggestion that God wills women to be priests implies that he's
>really quite remarkably ineffectual at guiding his church. After all, any 
>half-decent deity should be able to convince his Church of the matter if 
>he wanted to, given an incarnation, a dozen apostles, and two thousand 
>years of guidance by the Holy Spirit!
>
>Maybe you and others should seriously consider the possibility that God 
>isn't calling women to be priests, and that the Vatican and the Orthodox 
>Patriarchs are being faithful to the will of God in their refusal to conform 
>to popular demands for the "ordination" of women? 
>
>God bless,
>
>John
>--
>John DiMarco                                              jdd@cdf.toronto.edu
>Computing Disciplines Facility Systems Manager            jdd@cdf.utoronto.ca
>University of Toronto                                     EA201B,(416)978-1928

*****


I'd like to follow up on this by asking a few questions, sincerely, to
those who believe that God _is_ calling women to the priesthood.  I used
to believe this myself, and now I do not.  If I had asked these
questions of myself at the time, I don't think I could have answered
them.  That doesn't meant they don't have powerfully persuasive answers.
It means that I myself didn't have a reason for believing that God was
calling women to the priesthood other than my own notion that a just
God would necessarily do this, and that for God not to do this was
patently unjust.

So my questions are these, to anyone who believes that God calls women
to the priesthood.

1) What radical signs do you see, signs "of the times", to persuade you
that in this century God is making the divine Will known in ways that
were not so in other centuries?  

2) Has there been a new consciousness about the status of women which
is powerful enough to be the beginning of a new interpretation of God's
revelation in Jesus, an interpretation which suggests that only in
this century has it become clear that Jesus meant for the priesthood
to be for both men and women?  What signs are there of this new
consciousness?  How would the Church, having the power (as Jim McKintosh
points out after reading the document on women and priesthood) to
change its mind about this point, be brought to the understanding that
this is God's will?  

3) Is the male-only priesthood a "big deal" or not?  I'm asking
this because it seems like we all want to have it both ways.  a) It's
not a big deal so why won't the Church allow women priests?  b) It's
a big big deal so why won't the Church allow women priests?  I used
to hold to position a), not I hold to b).  When I ask myself that
question -- why WON'T the Church allow women priests?? -- I have
to conclude that it won't because the evidence would have to be
overwhelmingly evident that God willed this, in order for the Church
to make this change.  Either gender is a big deal, or it is not.
I used to think it was not, now I think it is.  

Probably nobody really wants to give me an argued reason in favor
of women priests, based on the resources the Church turns to for any
thought of change -- the gospels, interpreted by the Church over the
centuries; tradition; the "sense of the Holy Spirit" or whatever signs
it is which guide the Church in moving from one stance to another, or
in developing its teachings.  I'm not quite sure what those last
things are, those things which cause change or development in
teaching.  But if somebody would like to, I would welcome the
opportunity to hear clearly what it is that I am opposing, when I
oppose women priests.  I would like to be persuaded that God is
willing this, although I most strongly doubt that He is, through
my own recent study and thought on the subject.

Rae


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