From: rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Is it actually 10%??
Date: 20 Dec 92 06:18:49 GMT
Return-Path: <amail.amdahl.com!rich.bellacera@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>

Date: 18 Dec 92 03:28:50 GMT

> Subject: Re: pounding the "10%" figure into the ground: Nature, 12/3/92
> In article <13627@optilink.COM> Clayton Cramer, cramer@optilink.COM
> writes:
 {Cramer's diatribe deleted due to high nausea & ignorance content}

I have a serious question.  O.K., it seems pretty much in agreement that a
plausable percentage of the world's population is gay oriented (approx. 10% or
less).  My question is, with respect to this percentage and the current
increase in understanding of human nature and compassion, is it possible that
as there is more acceptance of gays that more will actually admit to being
gay?  In other words, is it possible that no matter how many surveys are
conducted, people will always lean on the heterosexual side out of fear of
being discovered?  I know in the past, whenever I filled out surveys I was not
always honest with respect to the questions asked.  If the questions were
perceived to have a possible negative answer I was more likely to answer the
positive one fearing that somehow that survey would come back to haunt me.  I
realize that surveys are usually anonymous, but I was usually pressured by
fear and peers to answer with what I "thought" would be the more acceptable
answer rather than what I really believed about myself or the nature of the
question (irrespective of the topic on the survey...ie. sex, work, school,
etc.)

Because I know that I did not always answer surveys honestly, and I have
spoken to many others who answer similarly, I was wondering how accurate
surveys concerning one's sexual orientation really are?  I mean, it seems
entirely plausible that as long as our society treats homosexuality with
disdain, those who fear they might be found out will always answer as a
heterosexual (despite the reality of their orientation), including those who
fear some sort of enigmatic retribution for even admitting such an orientation
to themselves (in their own mind) as though that...in itself would condemn
them.  It is this irrational fear that has sealed the suicide attempts of many
young men.  I know several men and women at churches, where I do and have
attended who ARE gay, but hide it.  They like to pretend they aren't because
to admit it (even to themselves) would be to admit some sort of failure in the
eyes of their fellow parishoners.  SOme have gone through rigorous stuggles
with this identity and have married the opposite sex as a hope to "cure"
themselves.  Others have admitted thier orientation to their pastors only to
be hounded by "loved ones" who watch their every step and never really try to
understand their inner struggle (just keep preaching that homosexuality is
"sin" and hope they'll "repent-- turn away from it" as though it was a
dysfunctional choice or illicit habit).  Some leave the church and religion as
a result, while others actually kill themselves in order to prevent any
further indulgences in the homosexual "lifestyle."  This is tragic.  Mr.
Clayton KKKramer is so fond of trying to put gays into a nice, neat little box
of stereotypes, and almost violently attacks gays as though they are solely
responsible for he world's woes.  I pray that Clayton does NOT consider
himself to actually *be* a representative of the Christian community.  If so,
I appologize for him for he does NOT represent me OR my faith in Jesus Christ.
I submit to you that he is rather likened unto those who, unlike the "Good
Samaritan", were representatives of the Jewish community & faith (a Levite &
a hippocritical priest) would not help the poor injured man on the road to
Samaria.

So could it be possible that even more than 10% of the world's population is
gay oriented?  I, personally believe that is in fact a reality, but I suppose
that if the environmental pressures against homosexuality are lifted and
people start answering more honestly, that the Christian Right ("Fundies")
will use that increased percentage data as "proof" that gays recruit.

BTW...How do gays recruit?  Are their NAMBLA poster children with the phrase
"Fags R us" or "Join now and be treated badly by your fellow humans".  What is
the great appeal that the Fundies think gays have that draw young children?
I suppose they have a warped sense of understanding since I have witness
blatant LIES spewing forth from the pulpit of many churches in order to seal
the support of their congregations.  Blatant misrepresentations of what
defines a homosexual and especially those subtle lies that take listeners
unawares. Such as when cases of Child Molestation are presented.  When reports
of an older man molesting a young girl it is called (simply enough) rape and
Child molestation (as it should be).  But when a report of an older man
molesting a young boy is mentioned it is instead called a repulsive homosexual
act (as though the first case (man+girl) does not represent heterosexuality as
a whole, but the second case (man+boy) is "homosexual."  Then there are the
photo opportunities where the worst-case scenarios (i.e. B&D homos or NAMBLA)
are solely depicted as "true" and "total" representations of all of
homosexualdom. I certainly know that many gays believe the radical zealot
right Fundies do NOT represent all of Christendom, so it should be understood
that fringe groups among gays do not represent all of those who would be
called homosexuals.  Since many Fundies love to point to NAMBLA as proof of
"gays recruiting new homosexuals" I would like to hear a "good" explanation as
to where all the new lesbians come from?  Are there active lesbian recuiting
agencies?

Another curiosity concerns a misappropriated notion that all gays indulge in
anal intercourse.  From talking with some gay males, they dislike the act of
penetration.  This being the case where is the so-called "sodomy" that makes
homosexuality so bad?  Or is it just the notion that gay orientation itself is
supposedly evil?  I know this is amazing for some radical Fundies to
comprehend, but there are indeed some gays, who fully consider themselves to
be gay, but find anal intercourse not to their liking and never practice it,
which kinda blows their theories of "God hates homosexual 'acts'" out the
window when sodomy isn't present.

As a Christian it amazes me how much the Far Right (Fundies) wish to take a
strangle-hold on society and dictate how individuals should live their lives.
I seem to recall that it is not our place to judge anyone, but only to pray
and teach "the Truth", but somewhere along the way, some have gotten the
notion that we are to teach man-made Truths (i.e. false doctrines) and control
all of the elements around us. There are those who would say because I do not
hold to their misguided theology of conquer and oppress that I am therefore a
heretic...that is their problem since I answer not to them, but to God for my
actions.  I pray that other Christians would come to understand that we are
NOT to persecute others, but rather to love them and share the gospel of Jesus
Christ.  That if we truly believe that someone else is "wrong" we should turn
them over to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and not to our venomous
attacks.  Personally, I do not believe that homosexuality, itself, is
condemned by the scriptures.  Rather that certain homosexual ACTS, like
certain heterosexual acts, are discouraged (i.e. using your body for purposes
of idolatrous worship to false gods which is the case in most of the O.T.
scriptures and in the case of Romans 1*; or cases of child molestation and
rape, etc., but not an intimate and loving relationship between two monogamous
persons). Others do not have to agree with me (either gay or Christian
"Fundies") that is their perogative in this democratic society.  I believe
that as long as someone does not infringe on me, my family and others, they
should be allowed to live the life that best suits them.  I do not believe in
legistating someone's rights away as the Colorado Ammendment 2 did when it
said that gays & lesbians have no rights to accuse thier employers or
landlords of discrimination in a court of law.  I also believe that g&l should
be treated no better or worse that anyone else in society (i.e. no 'quotas' or
the like), but then neither should there be 'quotas for 'blacks','women' or
other groups. But since we live in a society that LOVES to discriminate
against others it is understandable why such laws occur.

{Rich steps up to the pulpit}

*NOTE:  For those interested in a good reason for this belief - compare in the
O.T. how the term "sodomite" is almost ALWAYS listed in comparison with women
who used their bodies as sexual instruments of worship to idols.  To me, it is
too clear that scripture is referring to the abomination of worshipping false
Gods (the "creation and not the Creator") which was evidently (according to
scripture) a common practice in the cults of Baal and others.  History also
confirms that in St. Paul's time the Greeks & Romans also practiced the use of
having sex with the temple priests & priestesses was commonplace.  It is
obvious that the oft misquoted Romans 1 is in fact NOT a reference to
"lesbianism" but a comparison of both men & women who have indulged so deeply
into idolatry that they went as far as "body/sexual worship".  The women in
this case are not clearly defined as for the purpose of lesbian sex, but
rather just plainly giving their bodies up for temple prostitution.
Worshippers, normally men, would indulge both male and female priests for
worship which was usually for some fertility insurance.  Other N.T. scriptures
are plainly mistranslated and/or traditionally and purposefully
misrepresented for purposes of control and bigotry.  I am a person who
strongly believes in scripture and it was not an easy thing for me to come to
this understanding.  I, too, held to the traditions taught to me for an
awfully long time.  I praise God that he has openned my heart and mind to
comprehend this important and relevant area of human nature.  It is equally
amazing to me how much the Christian community misses out by not even trying
to understand what kind of sensitive and deeply loving relationships are
possible even between heterosexuals of the same sex.  I do not mean (in any
way) to imply that there are gay representatives in scripture, but there are
clear examples of loving relationships between people of the same sex in
scripture.  Unfortunately, the heritage we have from out prudish roots has
taught us things like "men aren't suppose to be sensitive and caring" and
"women are supposed to be timid and uneducated."  Fortunately as these
values change so is America's tolerance of indvidual differences.  I also
wonder where the so-called Christian Coalition for Family Values gets their
Biblical support for defining exactly what a "Family" is since the scriptures
depict all sorts of families, even some they would condemn outright.  King
David, that "man after God's own heart" had about 10 wives who were named and
servel hundred(?) concubines for his sexual pleasure.  King Solomon, purported
to have been the wisest man ever, had even more of both.  Jacob, who is the
founder of the Israelite nation had two wives and children from them and their
two handmaidens.  I think many people who hold firmly to their bigotry in the
name of Jesus need to re-read their Bibles.  So much of what is taught in
Church today is so diluted with man-made doctrines that it is neigh impossible
(without the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to sift through it.  Unfortunately
far too many rely soley on their Pastor for guidance and never really endeavor
to study on their own, or with an open mind to Christ (their understandings
are usually colorized by traditional thinking, thus nearly impossible to be
reached as they enter into study with the conclusion already predetermined).

If Jesus took the bullwhip to the temple moneychangers and preached against
the hippocritcal pharisees & scribes of his day, shouldn't someone do likewise
to those of today who would defame the name of our Lord (the televangelist
money beggars and Fundie zealots)?  When Jesus got angry in the N.T. it was
not against so-called sinners, but against those who would called themselves
representatives of God.  Think about it.

Rich steps down from the pulpit...___
                                     |__
                                        |__
                                           |__
                                              |__... May God richly Bless you.

I realize much of what I said is of a religious nature, but I firmly beleive
that much of what determines our political views is based on our views of
human nature, especially those concerning our belief in God.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc