HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: Rape in any form ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:54:29 GMT

Rape is rape is rape.  It is an absolute.  To fantasize about rape is always
the prelude to the act.  Do you actually believe that men (or women) who
commit rape do not fantasize about it first.  If so then you're stupid.  And
as far as the "medical experts" opinion goes, *SO WHAT*!  It doesn't change
the fact that rapists are non-human pieces of sewer scum and should be executed
publically.  It doesn't change the fact that anyone who fantasizes about rape
is a potential rapist and should get help before it's too late.  "Medical
expert" with regard to the human psyche is an oxymoron anyway.  How can a
person be an expert on something nobody fully understands ????  And as for
nobody condoning rape I concede that you are technically right.  I mean I don't
remember anything like: "Hey I think rape is fine.  Let's all go out and
force someone to have sex with us!"  But I have seen people suggest that
viewing rape scenes on film is just peachy!  And others who view rapists as
poor little innocent people who are just deeply disturbed.  Gimme a break!

I neglected to mention people who fantasize about being raped.  All I can say
here is that I feel confident that if such a person could add to that fantasy
the physical, emotional, and spiritual trauma suffered by a true rape victim,
the 'fun' would go out of the experience pretty quick.

Got anymore comments bright boy (girl) ?

KimmyD
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: DC: I didn't threaten Amy ...
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:49:42 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul27.133426.25380@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
> *VERY* satisfying experience.
> 
> You know guy, I think the fundamental difference between you and I is that I
> was brought up to believe that men have a sacred duty to respect and honor
> women.  To protect them from harm at *ALL* cost.  To treat them as equals
> and joint heirs to the kingdom of God.

At ALL costs? Meaning if a few innocent men get executed in the process, c'est
la vie?

We were brought up differently. I was taught to treat them as equals. Partners
in life on this Earth.  

					To me even the thought of rape, true
> rape, is abhorant to my very nature.  I believe that such values are totally
> lacking from your up-bringing.  

Of course you do. Because you do not have the ability to distinguish between
prettedn and reality. However, just because you only see black and white does
not mean colors do not exist.

> 
> As for your posts regarding the differences between war hero fantasies and
> rape fantasies, notice the word HERO.  A hero is one admired for his great
> courage and nobility (see Websters New World Dictionary). 

What of the people he kills? Those who are very much like him, but simply have
on cloth of a different color?

Because we are at war with his country, killing him makes one great? Tell me,
do we revere the heros of countries that fought against us? If one of them
killed several American soldiers, would you give him great respect?

What if it was your father the hero killed?

Your wife?

							I don't think that
> there is anything couragous or noble about raping someone.  On the contrary,
> rape is the most cowardly, ignoble act I personally can imagine.  An argument
> can be made that war is a highly moral activity.  

As Napolean (sp) said "Morality belongs on the side with the larger cannons".
Whoever WINS the war is just??? Does that also apply to gang-fights?

							No such argument can be
> made about rape.  I don't think fantasizing about killing people in war is a
> good idea.  However, if I had to choose between the two, the war hero fantasy
> would win everytime.  Hands down.  No contest.

Gee, if presented with a choice, you would take killing over raping? You would
kill the husband in front of the wife instead of raping the wife in front of
the husband? Would you offer them the choice? Or impose your own views upon
them? In real life, I am talking, as you seem unable to discern a difference 
between thinking about something and doing it.


> P.S.:  If anyone besides DC reads this and is offended by my references to
>        God or my position on Man's role vis-a-vis Women, please excuse me.
>        It's just my belief system showin' through.  No offense intended.

No. You are permitted to have, and voice your beliefs in your God. It is when
you try to legislate them, or force others to adhere to them, that one becomes
as despicable as the fundimaentalists of the Middle East.


DC


Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: rpetsche@mrg.tmc.edu (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Reply-To: rpetsche@mrg.CWRU.EDU (Rolfe G. Petschek)
Organization: CWRU Physics Department
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 16:38:42 GMT

In article <SCG.92Jul22091626@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu writes:

>>As for homosexual rape, that is no different a crime that ordinary
>>rape.
>
>Then why is it handled differently?
>
>Anyway, it may be where you are, but in most states, it's a totally
>different crime.  Here in Indiana, rape is ONLY when a man has sex
>with a woman without consent.  Same-sex "rape" would be "deviant
>sexual conduct".  Both are Class B felonies, I believe; the difference
>is that rape can be elevated to Class A if deadly force is used.  DSC
>has no such provision.

Wasn't Tyson accused of both rape and deviant sexual conduct e.g. isn't
rape defined as a man forcing penial-vaginal sex on a woman (and Tyson
also performed oral sex)?

Here in Ohio, in Florida and, I believe a majority of states but not
Indiana, California or Oregon (among others) the sexual assault laws
since roughly the late '70's and early '80's are amazingly gender
independent.  My major "beef" with the Ohio laws in this matter are that
the female breast but not the unisex nipple is an erogenous zone.

Were I a citizen of a state in which the sexual assault laws were not
essentially gender independent I would be considering getting them
changed.  If nothing else the title "deviant sexual conduct" should be
changed.  For goodness sake, I expect that a majority of the citizens of
Indiana enjoy (non-coerced) "deviant" sexual conduct.  I surely do.
--
Rolfe G. Petschek			Petschek@cwru.bitnet
Associate Professor of Physics		rgp@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University		(216)368-4035 
Cleveland Oh 44106-7079
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:50:48 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul22.044410.20702@a.cs.okstate.edu>, boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu (BOGGS RICHARD GRAN) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.035836.29793@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>Goehring wrote homosexuality, not homosexuals.  He was referring (I
>>believe) to the idea that your own homophobia may prevent you from
> 
> There's that word again: homophobia.  I think it's the wrong word to use in most
> situations.  You see, IMHO most people aren't _afraid_ of homosexuals (unless,
> of course, they were going to rape you), they just don't _like_ them.  Perhaps
> DC's not a homophobe, but merely anti-homosexual (coin a term if you can; I 
> can't remember my Latin bases).

Homophobia is the same PC attack that is used in other situations. If you
disagree with what a feminist says, you are a chauvanist (even if what you do
agree with what other feminists are saying, as they do not agree on a lot of
issues). If you believe that a man or woman can enjoy rape fantasies,
especially in films, people try to brand you as a rapist and a pervert. If
you feel we should have a high degree of free speech, you are a liberal.
If you don't care that gays feel discriminated against when they are forbidden
from dancing and kissing at Disneyland, you are homophobic. Then, they will
quickly try to state that homophobia results from your own latent homosexuality
which you are repressing.

It is an easy way for them to dismiss what you are saying without dealing with
the issues you raise.

Homosexual rape--yeah, that concerns me. It could happen to me. Discrimination
against homosexuals? Not my problem. Men raping women? Very much my problem.
Too many friends and fmaily members have suffered from that.

DC



Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:10:40 GMT

In article <SYNTH.92Jul28193941@deepthought.unm.edu>, synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
 > 
 > dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
 > 
 > > dc> It would be real hard to state that having rape fantasies is not
 > > dc> normal.
 > > 
 > > Nor am I trying to.  But by the same token, it's unscientific and
 > > irresponsible for you to contend that they are.  You can draw your own
 > > personal conclusions, but I object to you stating them as fact.
 > 
 > dc> I am specifically asking you WHAT makes you think the studies are
 > dc> invalid?
 > 
 > I have *never* said the studies were INVALID.  Jesus H. Christ!  How
 > long are you going to run us in circles here??
 > 
 > dc> You are taking scientific evidence and dismissing it with a wave
 > dc> of your hand ...
 > 

I would have to say that if rape is the second most common sexual fantasy, then it
is normal by the definition of normal - many people commonly do it. I think a 
separate issue is whether or not it is healthy.

All common practices are normal, but whether or not they are healthy is another 
matter altogether. 

-- 
-Tim-

sheehan@ncar.ucar.edu

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 19:28:37 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<SCG.92Jul31083850@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<1992Jul31.120221.9083@uoft02.utoledo.edu>


dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

dc> A rapist is someone who has committed the act of rape.  Mental states
dc> do not enter into it in the least.                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming I'm reading this ...

dc> (Although, mental states during the physical act of
dc> intercourse do determine if the act is rape or consensual)

Perhaps you might want to clarify what you mean here ...

dc> C'mon use your brain. If sexual orientation was ONLY experience,
dc> then how could someone "come out of the closet" after years of
dc> screwing women and raising a family? How could he say "I have been
dc> gay all of this time and been forced to hide it"?

All I can say is:  I am truly in awe at how naive you are, DC.


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"When it comes to my health, I think of my body as a temple ... or at least
 a moderately well-managed Presbyterian youth center."
						   -- Emo Phillips
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 21:31:47 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon



I am trying to remain open minded about this rape fantasy
thread.  

I realize that people fantasize about things that they
would never do.  I do this myself.  I don't, however, seek
out material for these fantasies.  I think that if people
feel free to advise others to seek counselling because
they are appalled at the recitations of other's rape
fantasies, then I may feel free to advise people whose
fantasies are dominated by themes of rape to also seek
help.  

I think that while we're reassuring the people who dream
of raping that they are normal, we might also reassure
the people who have been raped that it is normal to
be disgusted by those people who delight in their 
fantasies.

I see little sympathy nor empathy for rape victims
and survivors here lately.  I realize that this is
not a support group, but I should think that it's not
the antithesis of one, either.  

I would ask that those who feel compelled to post their
rape fantasies indicate that they're doing so in the
header.  I appreciated that the stories were clearly
marked.  

This subject isn't academic for all of us.

Susan
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Subject: To Eric P: I hear you man ...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:56:15 GMT

Yeah, you have a valid point I guess.  But for me and I think lots of other
people shame doesn't make me want to hide something.  It makes me want to stop
doing that thing.  I don't believe shame is bad.  Shame makes me realize that
I have done something wrong.  I don't hate myself for it.  I simple realize
that what I have done is wrong and therefore I shouldn't do it again.  I also
realize that God made me and He don't make no junk!  Therefore I am not bad,
just human.  It is the rapist who feels no shame.  At least in my opinion.
Hey I'm no expert on the link between visualization (fantasy) and performance.
It is simply a kind of intuition I have supported by things I have and exper-
ienced first hand.

KimmyD
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Definitions of rape
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:24:22 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul30.140427.23981@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, rpetsche@mrg.tmc.edu (Rolfe G. Petschek) writes:

> 
>>>> If it's a visualization of sex either with protest from the woman or with
>>>> the woman being oblivious to any act taking place, it's a rape fantasy.
>>
>>Olivious is not rape.
> 
> From the Ohio Revised Code:
> 
> 2907.03 Sexual battery
> (A) No person shall engage in sexual conduct with another, not the
> spouse of the offender, when any of the following apply:
>  (3) The offender knows that the other person submits because he or she
> is unaware that the act is being committed.
> 
> Third degree felony.  Gee and you don't mind calling gross sexual
> imposition rape and it is only a fourth degree felony.
> 

From Webster's New World Dictionary:

oblivious  ob liv' i ous
adj. forgetful or unmindful (usually with of or to)

If she doesn't mind, or doesn't care, it ain't a crime.
Synth's hypo stated she was oblivious to the act, not unconscious during.
While it is true that an unconscious person is usually oblivious to an act
taking place, and oblivious person is rarely unaware/unconscious of an act,
they simply don't care.

Now, what were you saying?

DC
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Homosepciesexist fantasies.
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:35:15 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

sheehan@pagosa.scd.ucar.edu (Tim Sheehan) writes:

> Now, you are telling us that whether a person is heterosexual, bisexual,
> or homosexual can be determined solely on the basis of fantasies?

He's got the essence of the situation down, but he's confusing fantasies
and desire -- which, I should point out for the benefit of some of the
slower locals here, aren't necessarily the same thing.  Anyone who is
primarily attracted to members of the other sex but who'd like to try
sex with someone of the same gender is bisexual to a degree.  That desire
for members of the same sex will probably turn up in their fantasies.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

Don't Mess With Texas
(You don't know where it's been -- ewwww!)
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: To All: Apology to Amy ...
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:49:30 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP

Dear Amy Young,

  I apologize for the ignorant, sappy , stupid comment I made in the
"Lucky star" post.  Sometimes I get carried away.  That's not an excuse, just
an explanation.  I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.  Sometimes I forget that
words can be as hurtful and intimidating as physical assault.  More so maybe.
I hope you can forgive such a juvenile outburst, even though it was really
unforgivable.  You certainly don't owe me forgiveness, I just hope you will
be able to.

I'm really sorry,

KimmyD

P.S.: Really though, it's good advice to be carefull about who's on the other
      end of the wire.  There are over 1 million assaults against women each
      year (statistic supplied on MACE commercial ??!!).  Frightening number.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Critisizing the victim?
Date: 28 Jul 92 07:40:10 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <VwuLoB2w164w@cellar.org>, hacksaw@cellar.org (Hacksaw) writes:
> 
>  
>   I agree that one never asks to be raped, and that it is never the victim's
> fault. But, in some cases, I believe too much sympathy is given to the
> victim; she comes out looking like a saint. Is it wrong to critisize her
> too?
>  
>   I'll make this analogy. A guy owns and expensive car and is naive enough
> to bring it into a the city. He locks the car, and goes off to do his 
> business. Ten seconds later the car is gone. No doubt there was a crime 
> committed here, and he didn't ask for it to be committed. We look at this 
> guy as an idiot for bringing such a nice car into a high-crime area.
>  
>   I tend to look at some rape victims as "idiots" for putting themselves
> into a situation. The girl, half-drunk, going into a guys apartment late
> at night. The girl walking down a dark street wearing clothes that leave
> nothing to the imagination. These are some instances that come to mind.
>  
> Any comments?
> 
> 
> ------
> hacksaw@cellar.org (Hacksaw)
> The Cellar BBS - (215) 654-9184

Your comments, though valid are NOT politically correct. That is like saying
jogging through Central Park at night is asking to be mugged. Or for a man to
walk downtown in an expensive suit at night is asking to be mugged. Or leaving
lots of packages on the car seat is begging to have the window broken.

Seriously, the trouble we are dealing with here is that the rape-awareness
movement is trying to perform two tricky tasks:

1. Educate people that a woman never asks to be raped
2. Educate women to be aware of high risks situations

The problem is that some people forget that just because it is a woman's right
to never be raped, sometimes she is asking for it real bad. Going to a frat
party alone and getting plowed while wearing sexy clothing virtually assures
you will have sex with at least one of the brothers. (Please note, going with a
friend, wearing drab clothing, and drinking nothing but coke does NOT decrease
the odds to zero.) Now, what they did was wrong, but what she did was stupid.

There are areas of town where men are follish to go for fear of being
mugged/stabbed/shot. To go into those places is asking for whatever
happens--even if you don't want it to happen. Screaming that it shouldn't be
that way is like screaming that the Earth should be flat, and we deserve better
candidates.

It just ain't that way, deal with it.

Give her sympathy for what she has helped bring upon herself, lock up the
rapists, and try to change things so that people are less inclined to rape.

But in the meantime, the smart woman avoids bad situations.

DC



Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 04:52:08 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon



I'd like to thank Rolfe for posting those comments.  

I'm not particularly happy with my feelings on this issue,
though.  I can understand why someone might fantasize being
raped (especially after the detailed description of his
ex-lover's experiences), but I am still at a loss as to
the reasons for fantasizing that one is raping another
person.  When people say they fantasize about raping someone,
are they referring to a nonviolent scene such as Rolfe
described earlier, or something very different?

I did fantasize about some rather obnoxious things at one
point in my life.  When I learned that the thing that raped
me had cancer, I imagined going to the prison and torturing
him now that he was helpless.  These fantasies alarmed me
in that they were so violent.  I got some help.  I get
the impression from the "It's perfectly normal!" crowd that
they are not at all alarmed by their fantasies.

Susan
From: boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu (BOGGS RICHARD GRAN)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Clarifications on Rape in any form ...
Date: 25 Jul 92 21:10:49 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater

dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

>The trouble with what you advocating is it encourages a person to, while
>committing a crime, take it to the maximum. The reason we have additional
>time for crimes where is firearms or violence is ised is that we want to
>encourage people to co the least amount of harm in their actions. If someone
>can get away with what they want (money, rape, speeding) and have a choice
>between risking penalty X, or doing more harm to society and receiving
>five times penalty X, a certain percentage will opt for the less risks.

Gotta disagree with you here, DC.  There is a certain measure of justice in 
having different penalties for different severities of the same crime, but 
there is also merit in having the maximum penalty for the crime regardless of
the severity.

I speed (when the wind is behind my ol' Subaru and I'm going downhill) occation-
ally, knowing that if I'm caught I will have to pay a $76 or so fine.  However,
I would choose not to speed if the penalty for it was death.  The little time
I'd save speeding would never be worth risking my life for.  Extreme example, 
but I think it makes the point.

I think that if there was just one penalty for rape, regardless of severity,
the frequency of lesser classes of rape would drop off sharply.  When a guy 
hears a woman say no, he would have to realize that if he proceeds, he stands
chance to suffer from the worst possibly penalty for rape (whatever that may
be in our fantasy world).

This type of justice system might be harsh, but it would certainly make men 
more attentive to their "partners" in the deed.

>That benifits everyone, as their is no 'might as well do it all' attitude.

Some people might opt to go ahead and go the whole nine-yards (where did that
expression come from?  What is nine-yards long? [No rude comments here, please])
in their criminal behavior, but I think this number few enough to give serious
thought to the idea of one-crime-one-fine.


-- 
Grant Boggs
boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:24:10 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul23.062617.351@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.001744.8868@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>Somebody email him the name of the gay forum. Please. I am tired of explaining
>>to people the same thing over and over again. 
> 
> Look, DC, I fight anti-queer bullshit like yours where I see it.  If
> you came on here making racist comments about African Americans, I'd
> bitch at you about that.  And I won't let you weasel out of it by
> claiming this isn't the place for it.
> 

PS. It should be anti-lesbigay, not anti-queer. Amke sure you keep your
speech politically correct.

DC



Newsgroups: talk.rape