HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:23:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Zhu writes:


>  It seems like my mind is in a different state.  clear, calm..  The problem is 
>  the more calm I get in meditation the more not (clear, calm) I became when I
>  am not meditating.


	The "space" gained because of "meditation" make one see more
	    clearly the state of so-called "non-meditation."
	
	
	It is the same with the complaint that: "when I sit in meditation,
	    my mind seems to become more active."
	
	
	The mind really does not become more active, but the "space"
	    created because of sitting in meditation allows one to
	    notice its [mind's] "activity"
	    [which generally goes unnoticed].
	
	
---raj
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:18:29 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Richard writes:

> >3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you
> >   consider to be a fully enlightened state?


> GROPING IN THE DARK[!]


	It was said by Ramana that:
	
	
	"The seed grows because of the SUN but in total darkness."
		
	
	and
	
	
	"It is not easy to measure the progress toward Self-realization."
	
	
	and
	
	
	"The "realized" do not leave any "tracks" behind
	
	
		-like a fish's "track" in the water, and
		
		-like a bird's "track" in the air."
		
		
---raj
From: wolffram@andor2.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de (Jochen WOLFFRAM)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Samadhi, Enlightenment,...
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:31:51 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany

In article <1992Apr7.080753.14541@iitmax.iit.edu> maurik@irene.mit.edu (Maurik Holtrop) writes:

>Many posts talk about such things as enlightenment or samadhi or other higher
>states of consiousness. I am wondering how many people have indeed had
>experiences of these kinds ? 
Don't care about things like that. Thinking in this way immediately
leads you to practicing with a wrong mind. If you want to gain
something like samadhi or enlightment when sitting on your cushion, then
you just exchange your ordinary daily life wishes with some spiritual
wishes.

>Some desciptions of enlightenment sound like
>it is a permanent state that one "attains", other experiences sound like they
>are temporary. 
>My personal opinion would lead me to think that there is
>only one kind of enlightenment, and many ways of reaching this, but is this
>really true ?
What do you like more? A permanent state of enlightenment, or just
a temporary state of enlightenment? Forget about this. Whenever you
think "ahhh, this feels good, this must be satori, I got it ...", be
sure you are miles away from it. Instead, observe your thoughts, let them
pass away, and concentrate on your posture.
 
>In Zen literature one reads over and over again about a student attaining
>enlightenment after understanding a question. Is this the same enlightenment,
>or is it understanding the question ?
There exist a lot of Zen-illnesses. Probably the worst one is "intellectually
understanding". It is very stimulating to read stories about monks
who attained enlightenment after hearing a sound or something like that,
but never try to understand these stories intellectually. 
Even better, do not try to understand them at all.

>If it *is* the same as enlightenment, are there still any Zen masters around,
>and are their students still attaining enlightenment ?
Don't trust an enlightend person :-)

Regards,
Jochen Wolffram
(wolffram@andor.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de)
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re:All is one.
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:07:10 GMT
Organization: ProLine [pro-nbs] San Diego (Tierrasanta), CA.  (619) 571-0152


In <1992Apr3.190419.4068@iitmax.iit.edu>
raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma) writes:

>	Aha, how marvelous; this meeting [of minds]
>	when stepping beyond the "illusion of words (Sabdjaal)"
>	     takes place.
>	
>	That is the first step.
>	Then, beyond all illusions,
>	All IS ONE - The SELF.
>	
>	When all is one, where is this thought or that?
>	                 Where is Buddha or Ramana?
>	                 Where is you or me?
>	                 Who sees whom?
>			 Who seeks whom? and How?
>			 Only the SELF.
>			 Only the SELF.
>			 ONLY the SELF.
>			

This all is one idea is something that keeps coming up. But in the
Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krishna says:

           na tv evah jatu nasam
             na tvam neme janadhipah
           na caiva na bhavisyamah
             sarve vayam atah param

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor
in the future shall any of us cease to be." Those words were spoken by Krishna
to His friend and disciple Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra.

We can also see from the standpoint of common experience that the self is
individual or particulate. All is not one, as the discussions in this group
clearly show. If everything were actually one, then as soon as someone
achieved oneness, then all of us would be in oneness. So because so many
people claim to have achieved that oneness, or others claim that such persons
have achieved the oneness, that shows that we really are not one. Because if
you can achieve oneness and I am here still in not-oneness, then the only
conclusion is that we are not one and the same. Alternatively, you could
suppose that the person who claimed oneness did not actually achieve it, in
which case everything is still not one.

So are things one or different. There is in Indian thought a philosophy, of
which I am a follower, called achintya bheda-abheda tattva, which means
simultaneous oneness and difference. This philosophy holds that there is a one
source of all energies, which is one with those energies and simultaneously
different from them. Teachers of this school, such as Shri Chaitanya
Mahaprabhu, give the example of the sun. The sunshine or the energy of the sun
is the same as the sun, yet the sunshine is different from the sun itself.
Simultaneous oneness and difference. The living entities are an energy of the
one supreme entity. Although different from each other and from their common
source, they are nevertheless one in the same sense  that the individual
particles of sunlight are one with each other and with their source. Their
oneness is in their purpose and connection with the common source.  This view
has the advantage of being supported by a careful reading of the Vedic texts
and by logic, reason, and experience. 

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma
ARPA:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma@nosc.mil
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: Rituals ----> loss of intent
Summary: About zen practice of hitting the neck when sleeping.
Keywords: Zen 
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 16:48:01 GMT

I have provided some possible benefits for doing some actions like in
the lotus sutra in previous postings.

Many things in religion are passed down from person to person,
but unless the theory or the why of it is not understood, the practices
become mere ritual and lose meaning.

The example I give is a Zen practice.

-----

In some Zen sects, if you fall asleep during meditations, the teacher
may hit you in the back of the neck.

You might think that's to wake you up.

Well, that may not be the only reason for rapping you there.

At the back of the neck, roughly at the bottom of the head, you may
feel another major energy center.

If this energy center is rapped lightly when you fall asleep during a 
meditation, you may be popped into a certain state.

----The problem is, I don't think this action is taught as a method of 
hitting a major energy center and placing the student into an altered
state.

    That's fine because you should be aware of this fact.  You just 
experience it and do it.  

However, some Zen teachers may have never understood or experinced this
reason for hitting the back of the neck.  Consequently, this action
is done merely out of ritual.  Some valuable effects of this 
technique is lost...

If the blow to the neck is done without awareness, then it merely wakes 
the student without placing them in any sort of altered state.

Nobody needs to know why you should sit in the lotus position or do this
or that, but in some cases, ritualization occurs and the actions lose
their original meaning.

This is one example of why I promote understanding some theory along with
the practice.

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu


Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: travers@iwarp.intel.com (Jim Travers)
Subject:  Questions on Experience
Organization: Intel iWarp, Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 19:47:52 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.031722.17965@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>
>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?
>
>2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 
>
>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?
>
>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this? 
>     
>       	A. You have not found right kind of meditation to bring you
>           to the goal
> 	B. You have found the right meditation, but you are still
>           learning how to apply it, or perhaps you are not applying
>           it in the best way
>	C. You have the right meditation and you are applying it correctly,
>           but it's just going to take time to reach the goal
>        D. You haven't found the right teacher
>	E. You don't have any real experience with meditation, but you like
>           to read books and pursue spirituality as an intellectual hobby 
>	E. Other 
>
>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when? 
>
>
>I would be interested if anyone would like to repsond with a sentence or
>two on each question. Thanks.

Why do you want to know?  Of what use is this information?

Jim Travers
From: johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Questions on Experience
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:17:22 GMT
Organization: Ready Systems

Hi. Thanks for all the responses to my previous questions about enlightenment
etc. These responses have deepened my interest in the topic of experience vs.
theoretical knowledge. I especially appreciated the responders who shared
something of their actual meditative experience. Which leads me to some
more questions... 

1. What form of meditation do you utilize?

2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 

3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
   consider to be a fully enlightened state?

4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
   enlightenment, how do you account for this? 
     
       	A. You have not found right kind of meditation to bring you
           to the goal
 	B. You have found the right meditation, but you are still
           learning how to apply it, or perhaps you are not applying
           it in the best way
	C. You have the right meditation and you are applying it correctly,
           but it's just going to take time to reach the goal
        D. You haven't found the right teacher
	E. You don't have any real experience with meditation, but you like
           to read books and pursue spirituality as an intellectual hobby 
	E. Other 

5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
   enlightenment? If so, when? 


I would be interested if anyone would like to repsond with a sentence or
two on each question. Thanks.
From: nabil@ogicse.ogi.edu (Aaron Nabil)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Building up ego with answers to questions?
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:34:54 GMT
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma) writes:

>[...]

>
me (unattributed) writing here...
>> In general, people asking "What is your current level of spiritual
>> realization?" or more specifically "Have you been in state n?" fall into a
>> few general categories.  Let me try to describe them (and why I think your
>> admonishment is baseless fluffy-bunny crystal chakra foo-foo) with an
>> illustration of an imaginary world...
>
>	
>	Spiritual pursuit has NOTHING to do with imagination.

It was an illustration, a story!  I don't know to what traditions you
ascribe your loyality, but don't they use stories or imaginary
situations to try to communicate subtle or complex ideas?

>[...]

>----raj

>[...]

Aaron
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: BUILDING UP EGO WITH ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS?
Keywords: ego,realization,spirituality
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:40:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: iitmax.1992Apr14.214042.15254
Organization: AT&T


Thanks Toshi to point out - the BUILDING OF EGO.


It is good to remember that the ego:


	is the THIEF which PRETENDS to be a POLICEMAN CATCHING the THIEF.
	
	
---raj
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Krishna is "Nice"
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:19:40 GMT
Organization: ProLine [pro-nbs] San Diego (Tierrasanta), CA.  (619) 571-0152


In <1992Apr7.210423.7718@iitmax.iit.edu>
cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG) writes:

>
>Why is it that Krishna devotees use the word "nice" so much.
>I have noticed that the word nice is used for so many things
>in these books and is used constantly by devotees.
>
>Can anyone shed some light on this??
>
>

Nice of you to point that out, Chris! Anyway, as a Krishna author for various
publications (books, magazines, newspapers, etc.) I will do my best to reduce
the occurrences of nice in my own writings, and in those of others. In many
cases, Krishna authors and speakers will repeat the language used by our
founder-acharya, Srila Prabhupada, who sometimes used that word in describing
Krishna consciousness. But I agree, better to use the most appropriate word in
each particular context. 

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma
ARPA:     crash!pro-nbs!dkarma@nosc.mil
From: farris@physics.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: more on meditation, please
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:32:18 GMT
Organization: ----

I think it would be great to see some of Tagi's "let's fly by the
seat of my pants" self-transformation method.  This would be
a great complement to Toshi's posts on technique.  I like to experiment,
and I feel the more tools I have to try, the more likely I am to
find the best ones for me.  So please, tell us more!
				-Lorenzo Farris
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Vanessa Williams)
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 19:43:54 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.213626.19123@iitmax.iit.edu> johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler) writes:
>1) If someone asked you, What is enlightenment?, what would you tell them? 

My response would be:
1) I honestly don't know. Even if I did, what could I tell you about it
- "The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao".
2) Why are you asking me? Find out for yourself. [Which leads to...]

>2) If someone asked you how they might practically go about discovering
>   such a realization for themselves, what advice would you give them?  

Giving advice on such a thing is tricky, but I'd probably reply with:
1) Find a spiritual *practice* which suits you. Reading books alone will
   get you nowhere.
2) I would encourage them to get in touch with a true teacher for some
   really meaningful advice. [I'll leave the question of how to find
   such a teacher - that issue's been done to death in this group
   :-)]

>3) If someone asked you to honestly state your own current level of spiritual 
>   understanding or realization, what would be your answer?  

My answer:
I don't know and it doesn't matter. The important thing is just that
one is firmly on the path. I have no idea how many lifetimes I've been
walking. I have no idea how many lifetimes I have to go.

>Thanks.

Peace,

	Vanessa.
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Vanessa Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Questions on Experience
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:31:34 GMT
Organization: Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine

>From: johnw@farside.eng.ready.com (John Wheeler)

>Hi. Thanks for all the responses to my previous questions about enlightenment
>etc. These responses have deepened my interest in the topic of experience vs.
>theoretical knowledge. I especially appreciated the responders who shared
>something of their actual meditative experience. Which leads me to some
>more questions... 

>1. What form of meditation do you utilize?

My usual practice is zazen. Sometimes I practice following the
breath. Sometimes shikan-taza, 'just sitting'. As several people here
have pointed out before, zazen is also practiced when going about one's
normal activities with concentrated mindfulness. Sometimes I'm
mindful while doing the dishes, sometimes not :-). When I'm giving a
shiatsu treatment I try to keep my awareness clear and focussed in
my "hara", to be fully present right here and now. I guess you could
call that meditation also, although the intent is different.

>2. What is your actual experience in meditation? 

I find the experience varies depending on many factors: whether I'm
sitting alone or with others, at home or in a meditation hall or
elsewhere, whether I have a lot on my mind, much energy or relatively
little, etc. Of course the experience changes over time as the
strength of my practice naturally increases and decreases, and as
different issues in practice come up. No short answer possible here!

>3. How would you describe your experiences in relation to what you 
>   consider to be a fully enlightened state?

I wouldn't. Full enlightenment is something I already have. You have
it also. Practice is an expression of our true nature, not a means
to an end. There's no special experience to seek. Practice is
enlightenment.

>4. If you feel your current experience does not match your vision of full
>   enlightenment, how do you account for this? 

See 3.

>5. Honestly assessing your responses above, and in the light of your current
>   level of experience and understanding, do you think you will realize
>   enlightenment? If so, when? 

"From the Beginning, all beings are Buddha." What time is it now?

Please be well and happy,

	Vanessa.
From: maurik@irene.mit.edu (Maurik Holtrop)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Samadhi, Enlightenment,...
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:37:23 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science

In article <1992Apr8.223151.20156@iitmax.iit.edu>,
     wolffram@andor2.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de (Jochen WOLFFRAM) writes...
> 
>>Many posts talk about such things as enlightenment or samadhi or other higher
>>states of consiousness. I am wondering how many people have indeed had
>>experiences of these kinds ? 

>Don't care about things like that. Thinking in this way immediately
>leads you to practicing with a wrong mind. If you want to gain
>something like samadhi or enlightment when sitting on your cushion, then
>you just exchange your ordinary daily life wishes with some spiritual
>wishes.
> 

This is such a typical ( book type ) answer to any question about 
enlightenment. 
No, actually, I am not actively in persuit of attaining enlightenment,
nor am I really interested in that. I climb mountains because I enjoy the
climbing.

What is frustrating however is that many people seem to hide their not
knowing, or misunderstanding, behind a standard reply like this.
I am actually quite curious about what people experience. I don't even
have any real clue, and I think it might be usefull to disspel some 
misconseption I and others may have about it. ( Like, "Oh, can you then
walk over water too ?" :-)

>There exist a lot of Zen-illnesses. Probably the worst one is "intellectually
>understanding". It is very stimulating to read stories about monks
>who attained enlightenment after hearing a sound or something like that,
>but never try to understand these stories intellectually. 
>Even better, do not try to understand them at all.
> 
>>If it *is* the same as enlightenment, are there still any Zen masters around,
>>and are their students still attaining enlightenment ?
>Don't trust an enlightend person :-)
> 
>Regards,
>Jochen Wolffram
>(wolffram@andor.wiwi.uni-karlsruhe.de)

Actually, I just recently went to a talk by Zen-master Seung Sahn at Harvard.
He was quite wonderfull, very funny, and not very intellectual ( kept answering
questions that were long with: "Keep questions short ! I don't understand these
long questions ! You are too attached to words." ) So my question answered
itself. 


    Maurik Holtrop                      Maurik@pierre.mit.edu
					Maurik@mitlns         (bitnet)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The world of the mind encloses the whole universe in its light.
 It is a cosmic life and a cosmic spirit, and at the same time an
 individual life and an individual spirit. "    --Pan Shan
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Samadhi
Keywords: How? Can I? what can I?
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:00:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T

> >	      [Request]
> >	      I will highly appreciate if this not be made a subject
> >	      of discussion.
> >	      
> >	      Read it or do not read it. Ignore it, Reject it, Accept it,
> >              Describe your own "spiritual or meditative' experience, 
> >	
> >	      But, please do not discuss "Samadhi," [because it truly
> >	                  is beyond discussions, and therefore, any
> >	                  discussion is a "great hinderance" to it]].

> Is this a serious request or just another statement of your opinion?

	It is what it is!

> I was not aware that you had a copyright on the word "samadhi" which
> gives you the sole right to say what it means, anything about it, or
> whether or not it can or should be discussed.

	No more right, and no less, than any one else.
	
	A request means a request - it may or may not be granted.

---raj
From: maurik@irene.mit.edu (Maurik Holtrop)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Samadhi, Enlightenment,...
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:07:53 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science

Hello,

I have started to read this newsgroup recently as I have started meditaion at
a local Zen center. I have also visited some Ashrams. All in all I don't 
know much about the subject...

I have a basic question for those people that have meditated for a longer
time than I have ( which will be most of you. ) 
Many posts talk about such things as enlightenment or samadhi or other higher
states of consiousness. I am wondering how many people have indeed had
experiences of these kinds ? Some desciptions of enlightenment sound like
it is a permanent state that one "attains", other experiences sound like they
are temporary. 

My personal opinion would lead me to think that there is
only one kind of enlightenment, and many ways of reaching this, but is this
really true ?

In Zen literature one reads over and over again about a student attaining
enlightenment after understanding a question. Is this the same enlightenment,
or is it understanding the question ?
If it *is* the same as enlightenment, are there still any Zen masters around,
and are their students still attaining enlightenment ?

I would very much appreciate it if someone could answer some of these
questions in plain understandable language. 

Thank you much,

    Maurik Holtrop                      Maurik@irene.mit.edu
					Maurik@mitlns         (bitnet)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern