From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2)
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:30:40 GMT
Organization: Fermi Lab

In article <Aug.20.02.06.24.1992.20878@athos.rutgers.edu>
eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
>In article <Aug.19.00.05.16.1992.13779@athos.rutgers.edu>,
REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:
>From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
>Subject: Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2)
>Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 00:05:17 GMT+5:00
>
  
>> Just as there is a depth of meaning behind "logos" so there
>> is behind "petros" especially relevant to the worship of Saturn in Rome
>> during the days that it and Christianity were combined to form a state
>> church.  There are many, many books that attest to this marriage,
>> unfortunately most of them are next to impossible to get hold of now a days.
>
>Probably because they are mostly erroneous and of questionable
>scholarship.

Hardly. I don't have all the info anymore, but take for example Wilkenson and
his studies on the mystery religions in Egypt.  He was knighted, he had
multiple PhD's from many of the leading Universities in Europe, earned and
given, headed the Royal Eastern archeology museum (I forget what it is really
called) in England that is THE Oriental Museum in the world.  Layard also was a
chief curator of this museum and his work stands by itself because he was one
of the original archeologist to study Babylon in depth.  Most of the artifacts
in the museum from Babylon are a result of his foresight to catalogue and
preserve them. It was a life-time occupation, as Wilkenson's was of Egypt.  The
problem with finding their works is that they were originally published in the
early 1800's and that this particular field within archeology lay dormant for
several years. It seems to have picked up dramatically of late however.  I've
just got done reading Wilkenson's 3 vol Egyptian.

>Considering, Rexlex, that it can be shown that most of these terrible
>heresies of the church were believed long before the church was
>legalized, I find it doubtful that the legalization of Christianity had
>anything do with them.  Prayers for the dead, prayers to saints, belief
>in the Real Presence, baptismal regeneration, veneration of Mary and the
>saints, veneration of relics, the necessity of auricular confession,
>penance, on and on -- it can be shown that the church believed these
>things long before Constantine came along.

That's ok, you can call me Rex.  No need for formalities! (smile) I must
confess to you as I have others, that I was in a used book store and ran across
an interesting title -"The Two Babylon's" by Alexander Hislop.  Though others
have looked at the book, they have commented that it was dated or dry.  I found
it total captivating.  For the last 25 years I have been researching its author
and its reference material to see if I agreed with, well, with this diatribe
against the RCC.  I have debated in 2 RCC seminaries, and spent lengthy
conversations with several  RC priests, and even the Episcopalian Bishop of
Chicago.  No one was able to give a substantive reply to the conclusion put
forth in this book.  Hislop didn't pull any punches or tickle any ears so it is
hard reading if you have any catholic back ground like myself.  But if one is
intellectually honest, questions have to answered.  

As for the listing you just gave, yes these are noted.  But they are hardly
exhaustive.  We could look at every article of priestly garment, the dates of
the holidays, even some of these "Xian Holidays" themselves.  There are the
lamps & wax candles (Easter candle for eg), rosary & the sacred heart, the
symbols of the cross, even processions. Or we could look at the idea of the
College of Cardinals (priests of the "hinge"), the concept of the chair of
"Peter",  or the teaching of the TWO keys (as sown on Papal dress). This brings
us ultimately to the "Sovereign Pontiff."  An idea that originated in the
mystery religion of Babylon.  

I care not to enter into this discuss at the moment, possibly it would be
better if you looked for a copy of Hislops book for yourself and did your own
research.
I'm done it, as stated, for 25 years, and have yet to find any evidence to
disprove what Hislop wrote.  We build our faith on knowledge, and with this
knowledge, my faith has been tested time and again.  You're right in saying of
pagan religions:  "What is paganism, after all?  Paganism is a corruption of
truth.  Satan takes the truth and distorts it to his own ends."  But when
individual churches take on the guise and trapping of their corruption, then
answers need be given. One of the things that I found particularly interesting
about the Babylonian mystery religion as noted by Layard, was that there were
to faces to it.  There was a face for the public, and there was a hidden
agenda.  I'll just leave it there.

>I urge you, Rexlex, to read for yourself the early writings of the
>church, and compare them to the paganism you decry.  You will find that
>the Catholic church has always held the same unending truth, and has
>never combined paganism and Christianity.  Not only that, you will find
>that what we teach is in fact what the Apostles taught.

This clearly is not what historians and archeologist have recorded of the time
being discussed.  
>
>If the church was corrupted in the 4th century by pagan religion, then
>the promises 1 Tim 3:15 (the church is the pillar and foundation of the
>truth), Is 59:21 (My words shall not depart from their mouths, or the
>mouths of their children, or of their children's children), 1 Peter 1:25
>(The Word of God stands forever, and this is the word that was preached
>to you) are all lies.  Christ has never abandoned his church.  He never
>abandoned Israel, and he never abandoned his church, nor did he ever
>leave it at any point whatsoever.

You have made a mistake equating the RCC with The "Church."  At best it is only
a church, a denomination.  Remember, we are talking about the system, not its
peoples.  Just this Sunday, I met real, "born again" believers who for the 1st
time had stepped out of the jungles of Irian Jaya.  They were so culturally
backwards that as westerners, we couldn't believe the difference.  But some use
to be witch doctor's who had come to know Christ.  (It was also interesting to
here their experiences with tongues & healings!). I just want this know at the
outset, that I am not making personal attacks, as if I were shouting at your
parents.  But there are times in life that review is called for.  "To whom much
is given much is expected" carries with it a host of applications.

>Catholicism is not based on paganism.  Paganism is based on Catholicism.
>Satan has known the truth for all time.  He chose to corrupt it in his
>pagan religions.  Now you believe his lie that simply because the
>Catholic faith bears resemblance to his pagan faiths -- when in truth it
>is the reverse -- Catholicism is to be rejected.

Either you are misunderstanding, or you are ignorant of the facts, or you
simply don't want to know them.  I don't want to be the one that slams a pie in
your face either.  I only wish to point to the possibility.  You either have to
reject the evidence, or come to an understanding.  As I've mentioned in earlier
posts, I have 6 friends who were in RC seminaries.  After their honest
appraisals of the info -all 6 left their seminary, 4 of them left the RCC.  

>I'd rather not water down Christianity by removing all the objectionable
>elements because they 'look pagan'.  I am not going to make an apology
>for true Christianity because paganism happens to be a distortion of it.
>Let paganism do what it wishes.  I will hold true to the true faith, no
>matter how paganism may mock it.

I totally, 100% agree. However, we mustn't get the cart before the horse. THis
is a question of which came first.  The basis is built on eternity in the
Personal/Infinite.  However, all the trappings did not and many have no
Christian justification except from cultural/pagan conformity.

Please, this is not to lead to flames.  If you disagree, that's between you and
the Lord.  It is He that gives the only verification that matters!

pray for the peace of Jerusalem,

Rex