HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Rights or Privilege
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:00:46 GMT

Sometimes terms like male-privilege or heterosexual-privilege are used.
Whenever I hear the term heterosexual-privilege (especially if it is
directed at me or bi-folk) it sounds very much like an accusation. This
in turn can lead to defensive knee-jerk reactions which tend to hinder
productive discussion.

It's the word "privilege" that does this. It seems to be that the phrase
"(basic human) rights" would sometimes be more appropriate. For example,
is heterosexual-privilege really a privilege that heterosexual have or
it a basic right which queer folk are denied?

[Aside:
 Strangely, I don't feel the same knee-jerk reaction when the phrase
 male-privilege is used as when heterosexual-privilege is used. Yet still
 I think that it is not so much a privilege which men have, but rather a
 set of rights which are denied women.
]

Looking up a dictionary for a definition of privilege, it seems as if
the two concepts of X-privilege and (non-X)-denied-rights are not too
far apart. So maybe it is my vocabulary which is to blame rather than
the actual terminology.

Does anybody else have any thoughts on this?


<> All through human history, tyrannies have tried to enforce obedience by
<> prohibiting disrespect for the symbols of their power.  The swastika is
<> only one example of many in recent history.
<> --- American Bar Association task force on flag burning

Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Subject: hot bi babes
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 00:59:07 GMT


	ok, this is kinda on net.ettiquette

	someone i don't know called me on the phone this morning. while
	i do have my phone number in my .plan, in general i don't like
	to get calls from strangers.  if u want to get in touch
	w/me & don't have email access, borrow a friend's account & write
	first.

	& if u must call, please identify yourself & tell me *where* u
	know me from in the first few minutes of conversation.  while this
	was an honestly complimentery phone call ('i loved your latest
	post'), i really need more context.

	also, i don't know if this person was someone i'd want to talk
	to more, someone who was closetted & needed some support, someone
	cruising for 'hot bi babes' or what.  i'm honestly not sure he
	saw me here, but this is the place i do most of my interesting 
	posting.

	so, future fans, please strive to be polite when using the phone,
	& if u give me more context, u might get a better/longer/more
	pleasant conversation w/me, & you're sure to annoy me less.

	thank you!

	annemarie
	asuccop@u.washington.edu
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Muffin alert!
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:10:12 GMT
Organization: Eris's Restaurant

In article <iw.711753605@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Iseult White) writes:
>ELAINE@brownvm.brown.edu (Elaine M. Brennan) writes:
>>well, sweetie, if your organization is the next one to pay the fare,
>>Ireland sounds like the right general vicinity tome ...
>If any of you dare have a party in Ireland while I am  not there I will
>.....................  Well I 'll think of something very nasty to do 
>you all.  And it won't be nasty/nice it will be nasty/nasty!

A party in Ireland sounds splendid to me: I've loads of friends that I
can visit while I'm there (heh, mebbe I could invite young Mark to the
party and see if he'll catch the meme :))

><Enormous hint>  I should be London/Dublin in Sept.

YES! YES! just not the week with the 16th in it, please - I'm running
a conference!

><ObBiContent:  Can't think of any!>

You're discussing a bi party and can't think of bisexual content?  Naah.
Our bi parties leave lots of bisexuals content.

		(and (and 'Mad 'Bad) 'FullyFunctional)
		Kay

-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: what's been happening (subtitle: is this unusual?)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:56:43 GMT

In <Bs13HJ.CJ8@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>As a happy married person and happy bisexual, I might have something to say,
>but I also have to admit I couldn't really sort your post out clearly.  The
>feelings, in being new, also seem to be underdeveloped and confused.

Confused? Of course he's confused! He's bisexual, ain't he.


<> Go away until you have spent a month walking hand in hand in public
<> with someone of the same sex. After you survive that, then I'll hear
<> what you have to say about queer anger. Otherwise, shut up and listen.
<> --- "Queers Read This"

Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Hetero/bi/homophobia (Was: Lesbian denial)
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:14:32 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens


>cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>>Agreed.
>
>>>If you try and strictly define yourself into a rigid little
>>>box, you're destined for trouble.  That's why I feel bi's have it more
>>>together - accepting and acknowledging whatever feelings come along.
>
>>Is it just me or does anybody else find this to be bisupremist?

I do. And boy...Oh! *sputter* Oh....nevermind.

*stomping away in frustration*


-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Xref: sparky soc.bi:9692 soc.motss:32839
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: The War Between Us (Long)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:43:45 GMT
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin

In <Bs3zqr.BwI@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
dbshapco@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>>Of course, it could be claimed that getting rid of the 'phobes and
>>bigots and achieving equal rights and protection would be worth the
>>risk.
>
>My hope that a rational alliance could be formed in based on the premise that
>society can mature, and that if any segment of society is more mature than
>any other it might very well be queers.  This is merely a by-product of
>examining the assumptions and dynamics of society more careful than the
>average person is apt to do.

I disagree with the claim that the queer segment of society is more
"mature" than any other segment. Here are my arguments.

1. I agree that being oppressed gives one an extra incentive to examine the
assumptions and dynamics of society. Don't forget, however, that there
are lots of groups, not just GLBO folk, who are oppressed: Blacks,
Jews, women, handicapped... Do you think that all these (and other)
oppressed groups are equally "mature" in the sense you are talking
about or do we queers have some special quality which the others lack?

Also, while a queer person may be knowledgeable on the dynamics of
society w.r.t. sexuality, do you think that that same person will be
equally knowledgeable about the dynamics of society w.r.t., say, skin
colour or physical (dis)ability?  If this were the case then surely
gay/bi men would be much less sexist than we currenty are. (I know
we're sexist because one does not have to look too hard to hear
complaints from lesbians/bi women about it.)

2. I reckon that for every GLBO person who is "mature" there are N who
are not (where N is, say, 10 or 100). Thus, while there are enlightened
individuals, I don't think that GLBO folk, as a group, are.


<> How many times do I hear that being bisexual means you MUST have a
<> partner of each sex at the same time?
<> --- amy young (alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu)
<> Where are we supposed to get the energy for dealing with all these
<> partners?
<> --- Iseult White (iw@tosser.Rational.COM)

Ciaran.
-- 
Ciaran McHale                                                             ----
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.       \bi/
Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-772204 email: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie \/
From: sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: _Prelude to a Kiss_
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:46:42 GMT
Organization: News Addicts

cjohnson@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Coe Salzgeber) writes:

>Hullo, it's me (long-time muffin Coe, according to Ellen)
>I'm only a muffin because I usually don't have time to keep
>up.  But i am making a concerted effort now...

Coe!  Hello!  Good to have you around; Ellen has talked to me about you.
Can't wait to see you both next month ...

>So howdy!  And a huge, all-inclusive *hug*.

Howdy!  And a sort of standard Sara-sized <hug> back ...

Sara
-- 
 >{8-)     Sara Hopkins     (-8}<              _____^__
 Geography Dept.  Edinburgh Uni.  Drummond St. \ OOO/ / The Thing
 Edinburgh,  EH8  9XP,  UK. +44 (0/31) 650 2662 \++/ /   From
 >{8-) sara@geovax.ed.ac.uk (-8}<                \/\/ The Swamp
From: grant@Autodesk.COM (Grant Hogarth)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Grant mangles messages! (was Re: Bay Area Beach Thing)
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:26:13 GMT
Organization: Autodesk Inc., Sausalito CA, USA

grant@Autodesk.COM (Grant Hogarth) writes:
> is dragging me away to live in sin in the foggy east. :-)
> (As you can tell, I'm putting up a lot of resistance. <grin>)
> Actually, I'm thinking of having a party in SF on the 7th of Aug
> if that would be of interest to anyone. I doubt that it will be as
> wild as the Edin(mumble) one, but we could try! <naughty grin>
> E-mail me @ grant@autodesk.com if you're interested.
> 
Well, yes, now I too, have been bitten by the net.monster-editor. :-)
And you know? I cannot for the life of me think of what I said before
the line got truncated (beheaded?).  Something about a certain list-member,
I'm sure, and the fact that I would not be around for parties in September,
but beyond that....it's all a foggy blur. :-)  The party is still on, though.
I'm hoping that Sara will be here as well as Elaine and all the other bi-
coastal people. :-)

Cheers!

Grant.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: Clive's Pictures of the Party...
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:28:41 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.020323.17573@vpnet.chi.il.us> orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
|   (Though, if those pictures *do* involve me and a compromising position,
|please let me know:

   ... though, to be honest, I'll not actually *admit to doing anything
with anybody - rumors and innuendo make for a much more interesting
newsgroup and an empty-of-threats mailbox :-)
                __
  david parsons \/ "After all, if you *knew who did who, you'd not have
                    the fun of making guesses"
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: sara@castle.ed.ac.uk (Swamp Thing)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Pseudo-monthly Posting: The Redhead List
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:06:28 GMT
Organization: News Addicts

rhialto@cs.kun.nl (Olaf Seibert) writes:

>sara@geovax.ed.ac.uk (Sara Hopkins) [some of the long bits are like
**bright** red, like crimson]

Alas, you'd better delete me, Olaf as there is zilch red there now. 
I'll keep you informed ...

Sara
-- 
 >{8-)     Sara Hopkins     (-8}<              _____^__
 Geography Dept.  Edinburgh Uni.  Drummond St. \ OOO/ / The Thing
 Edinburgh,  EH8  9XP,  UK. +44 (0/31) 650 2662 \++/ /   From
 >{8-) sara@geovax.ed.ac.uk (-8}<                \/\/ The Swamp
From: elee52@castle.ed.ac.uk (Bill Gammie)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Reasons to be bi #3
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:40:52 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <39704@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> db@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) writes:

     [ all the relevant stuff deleted]

>        What would you say if I said that I'm not from Edinburgh after all,
>	but from a small planet in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

  A long time ago, in a galaxy far,far away there was a small
planet called Bristol, home of the Berrydroids.  Bristol was
flung out of its continuum (near Betelguese) by an enormous
explosion caused by a group of bisexuals self-imploding into
condensed matter (this may have been due to their research
into telephone box-bisexual continuity theory).

Bristol appeared in our universe in the south west of England.
The Berrydroids, under their leader, D2B2 (very kinky lot)
quickly created theillusion of an English city to shield
themselves from the awful spectre of British droidophobia.

D2B2 left Bristol on a scouting mission to Edinburgh
with the aim of causing a bisexual implosion similar to that
in his home galaxy.  This would destroy us humans and leave
the whole world to the tender mercies of the berrydroids.

The rest is (or very soon will be) history.....

Bill

Bill Gammie                                Phone:031 650 5612
Department of Electrical Engineering       email:bill@ee.ed.ac.uk
University of Edinburgh
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair)
Subject: Re: Dusky Beauty Tells All
Reply-To: h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:58:41 GMT

Keisha,
Welcome, and thanks for a great first post!  Where are you going next?
Is it Chicago?  Well, I can hope, can't I?

Does Austin have bi-people starting groups at all?  I know there's one
in Dallas.

- Heather

-- 

- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu
From: mlloyd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Edinburgh Party Photos
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:51:42 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

pclary@radish.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) writes:
>dente@els.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente) wrote...
>>[about party 'photos]
>>Just how incriminating *ARE* they?
>
>There's a photo of you consorting with someone who's drinking a <*gasp*>
>chocolate frog!!!!  

Now is this something I want to know about?
[Quick as a flash, he puts on his Statistician's hat]
A strong statistical correlation has been observed between
the perdictor variables "Colin", "consorting", "chocolate frog"
and "Dave's Party" and the observation "me" ....
[takes silly hat off]

I ask not for myself, of course, but a friend of mine (you know who
you are - *grin*) who is looking for "incriminating" photos of me at
said consorting event.  So if anyone has same, I'm prepared to
go forever into their debt (payment techniques negotiable)
if extra prints could be forwarded ...

Mike
-- 
Mike Lloyd                         | B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k(+) s m- e? 
Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and     | "The Trouble with Normal is it
owner of a one-track mind:         |  Always Gets Worse" - Bruce Cockburn
   "thesis .. thesis .. thesis"    |    (-:   F**k Your Gender!  :-)
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Marraige and Apartheid
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:43:32
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Jul30.094541.1650@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
	<MUFFY.92Jul30142420@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Jul30.223959.21609@reed.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: eparish@reed.edu's message of 30 Jul 92 22:39:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.223959.21609@reed.edu> eparish@reed.edu (Elizabeth Cameron Parish) writes:
> In article <MUFFY.92Jul30142420@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

> >Who is it that you think is going to "care" in the sense of doing
> >something to make things less unjust?  Only us, and we already *know*.

> Jumping into this discussion late, and with a newsreader that has
> suddenly gone berserk, I'm wondering.... does it really matter whether
> it makes a difference or not, in making a decision not to marry?  If I choose
> to not do something that I think is unjust, it's because I don't want to
> do it, not because I think I'm going to change the world.

Well, the idea seems to be that if lots and lots of people refuse to get
married because not every group *can* get married, then society will
"take notice" and change marriage.  So, it seems like some people *do*
want to use this as a way to "change the world."  I was just saying that
I don't think it *will* change the world; I don't think other people
will even care, much less *do* anything about it.  Therefore, it may be
personally satisfactory to someone, for reasons of their own, to choose
not to marry, but it doesn't seem useful as an instrument for change in
the world.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Iseult White)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Life does funny things sometimesbottom
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:22:08 GMT

IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>ok, the anger i can talk about.  who he is and what happened and
>all the good details, no, but being furious about all this i can
>talk about.  and it's aIlsa, please, not aLisa.  pronounced
>rather like 

Ailsa I understand your anger, but in a sympathise rather than 
empathise way.  Because I feel angry at your community
for not respecting me because I like women and men. 

I don't know what to say to you, because I know the general opinions held
about bisexuals in the community you describe.  All I know is there are
women who care passionately about the community you describe, but have
also had to face up to an attraction to men.  There are essays in
Bi any Other Name, and in Closer to Home, describing personal struggles
to maintain political lesbian identities, while dealing with bisexuality.
But I am certainly not going to tell you that it is easy, because it
most definitely is not.  These women all describe great pain, loss
and isolation.  There are also some very strongly feiminst womens 
bisexual groups - Boston Bisexual Women's Network and Seattle
Bisexual Women's Network.  

I hope you work things out, and I would be happy to talk to you on e-mail.

Iseult - who was trying to be supportive but realises she just wrote a
	 real downer of a post.
From: fenthe@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Well, here goes...
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:43:17 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

In article <1992Jul28.203505.180832@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, sr09@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SIMON NICHOLAS RUSSELL) writes:
 [de-muffinning]

 Hi! Welcome to soc.bi! Whilst we await the arrivel of the welcome wagon,

 *hugs*
  *licks*
   *snuggles*
    *smooches*
     *and onwards, ever onwards..*

 -- Fenthe
From: db@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Life does funny things sometimes
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:49:55 GMT
Reply-To: db@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

Thanks Albert, for such an excellent article.  I wish I had written something
like that instead of my rather bitter dig about the aims of the (UK) Women's
Liberation movement.  There's enough bitterness in the world without me
adding to it.

>It is worth noting that lesbians were once outcasts at the fringes of the
>feminist movement instead of being assigned mythic status as the ideal.

Yes, indeed, and it was largely lesbians who campaigned for the addition of
the aim that I (mis)quoted to the aims of the UK WLM.  And of course many
women who support the WLM do recognise and accept bisexuality.  (In case
anyone took my remark seriously (I omitted a smiley), the aim says that
women have the right to choose their own sexuality.  I added the remark
about bisexuality.)

A message I received by e-mail made me notice that I tend to see biphobia
as rather quaint, except in the case of lesbian-feminist biphobia, because
the latter is part of a coherent body of thought among some lesbian feminists,
whereas when gay men are biphobic it's usually on an individual level.  I'm
not sure how much this is unconscious sexism on my part.  (Then again, my
remark about biphobia being quaint was intended as a comment on my current
milieu, not as an objective statement.)

>A political exercise for bisexuals is how to adopt queer-positive, feminist,
>queer-centric values, without putting as much energy "defending our
>boundaries" as some forms of lesbian-feminism did.  

Also, to avoid splits between those of us who are (or try to be) queer-positive
and (pro-)feminist and those of us who aren't, or who are but have different
opinions, etc.  The women's movement isn't the only one that's been held
back by infighting, and I doubt that it will be the last.

This thread seems to consist of articles by men, even though it's bisexual
women who face this discrimination.  I'll shut up now.

Dave.
--
<> Why the fuck can't it be recognised that women love women through
<> *positive* reasons of loving women, not necessarily negative reasons of
<> hating men. --- Sara Hopkins.