HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: bear hug variation
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:43:14 GMT

jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:

[description of bearhug with lift deleted]

>Any suggestions?

In skydiving, one of the several ways a canopy can fail to
deploy properly is called a line twist.  In this situation, you
are rotated with respect to the canopy, and the control lines
that connect you to it are so twisted that it cannot open.  Now,
you can hope that the lines will untwist by themselves before
you go in, but that would be equivalent to hoping that your
bearhugging attacker will get tired and fall down or let you go
before he has a chance to bounce your head on the concrete. In
both cases, it is smarter to try to have some effect on the
outcome.

The way we do it in skydiving is to start swinging the legs and
lower body in wide arcs.  This movement is a little hard (for me)
to describe, but you've all seen gymnasts do it on the rings.
You swing your legs from the waist so that your feet describe a
circular path.  The torque generated by this movement corrects a
line twist condition when you are jumping, but it also turns out
to be a pretty good move when you have been lifted off the
ground by someone.  It takes a fair degree of balance to pick up
another person and drop them on their head (as opposed to just
falling down with them).  When you start swinging your legs in
this way, you cause sudden, large, unpredictable shifts in your
attacker's center of gravity.  Large enough that he's going to
have a very tough time throwing you with any precision.  After
staggering around with you for a while, chances are very good he
will either fall over with you or release you to keep from
falling down.

Try it with your training partners.  I know it sounds sort of
silly, but it is surprisingly effective.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
From: jlockha@eis.calstate.edu (Jame A Lockhart)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Drugs & Fighting (was Finishing techniques)
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:22:07 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg) writes:
> In article <e3TsVB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com> lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard  
> Church) writes:
> > ....  This 
> > discussion reminds me of "battlemix" as a gentleman I met that was in Viet 
> > Nam called it...it was a mixture of narcotics that was often used by US 
> > and Vietmanese <sp?> troops before going into a particularly nasty combat 
> > situation.  He told me that he personally had seen men that were shot so 
> > severely that they could not have been able to react continue to function 
> > for up to 5 minutes before finally falling.
> 
> This reminds me that there are and have been many cultures that have
> mixed drugs and fighting application. My favorite (being Scandahovian)
> is the Viking's use of berseka (magic mushrooms) and mead (fermented
> honey/wine) prior to battle. One can imagine how terrified the defenders 
> would be when arrows and swords did little to stop the oncoming attacks.
> 
> Recently we hear of a narcotic being used in Samalian gunmen.
> I wonder how common it would be to encounter drugs and fighting
> around the globe currently... ?
> 
> Kevin
> 
> ps. I wouldn't want to suggest that one adopt these techniques to enhance
> their fighting art :-)
> -- 
> Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
> kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
> Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
> San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `

From what I understand, the Samoans used to put some sort of narcotic on
their armor so that pain would be more difficult to register.  Apparently,
this is why the .45 was invented.  US troops were VERY disconcerted when
they kept coming after a few rounds in the chest.
From: ph2sct@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Dzu Nguyen)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido Question (no, this is not a poll...)
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:01:43 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego


With regards to your strong friend, someone should pull him aside
and explain the difference between ok UKE and asshole UKE. If you
are doing the technique right, then no strength should be required.
But sometimes when grabbing, an UKE may apply force in the wrong
direction for that technique to work. So try something else and try
explaining to your UKE what the attack really is.

Dave (Using Dzu's account)
From: ndd@work5 (Ned Danieley)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Moving to Raleigh, North Carolina
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:41:24 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

someone posted info about our Raleigh and Durham clubs; since Chapel
Hill isn't far, I'll toot my own horn, too:

The Chapel Hill Aikido Dojo
Address:   217 South Elliot Rd., Chapel Hill, NC
Phone:     (919) 933-9281
Sensei:    Ned Danieley
Style:     Hombu
Affiliat:  Aikido Association of America (Shihan Fumio Toyoda)


--
Ned Danieley (ndd@sunbar.mc.duke.edu)
Basic Arrhythmia Laboratory
Box 3140, Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC  27710   (919) 660-5111 or 660-5100
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 17 Dec 92 00:58:13 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec16.162804.16488@walter.cray.com> radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner) writes:
>most people *don't have* minimum training. 

	I'm not talking to most people, though.  I'm talking to a group
of martial artists of varying degress of skill in many arts.  Do I have
to consider jumping out from behind a tree and yelling BOO! a dangerous
attack because the victim might have a weak heart?

	And as far as untrained persons, why not just treat this attack as
a variation of the two lapel grab ?  Hand and body positions are similar and
BARRING ANY HUGE DIFFERENCES IN STRENGTH the attack is only a little more
dangerous.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: satadd00@nx13.mik.uky.edu (scott andrew taddiken)
Subject: Re: Judo Esoterica
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:49:09 GMT

In article <129670004@otter.hpl.hp.com> ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans) writes:
>
>If the opponent takes an over-the-shoulder grip on my left shoulder and
>somewhere on my right sleeve I grab anything with my left hand (it's not
>important) and throw my right arm under his left armpit, getting really close.
>At the same time I twist on my left foot, throwing myself backwards and lifting
>the opponent to twist them with me to my left.  If it comes off well you can
>twist 180 degrees and plant them beautifully.  If it doesn't work so well you
>go down together on your sides but you are in a great position to get a hold
>down and they don't know what hit them.   NOTE - on both occasions the
>opponents were fighting in a fairly upright position I think you'd end up on
>your back with one of those doubled up types.
>

Brenda!  You've discovered yoko-guruma!  See the yoko-sutemi-waza portion of
the nage-no-kata.

See?  There might be something to this kata stuff, after all!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky



Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Subject: forearm choke
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 03:26:47 GMT

Suppose someone of greater size puts one in a forearm choke from behind.
The attack was launched with a leap and the inertia of the leap carries both
to the pavement, resulting in damage to the face for the victim.
The goal of teh attacker now is to remain on top slowly choking
the victim to unconsciousness or breaking the neck, whichever occurs
first. What would be some remedies for the victim of such an attack
as proposed by you of various martial arts?

			John
			wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The FAQ: a modest (but serious) proposal
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:11:05 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: DWOVAX


Nicely done.  A lot of good thought clearly went into that, Mary,
and well expressed.   From some of the quality I've seen here,
I think with minor coordination the group could put together a
very useful document.  

Please let me know if I can be a resource at any point for any editing, 
proofreading, or research.   

					kind regards,

						todd

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com           |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273           |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                                       |
|  "I'm in a hurry, I don't know why.  All I really gotta do is live and die" |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: todd.paulus%theweb@meaddata.com (Todd Paulus) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: RE: COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS?
Date: 6 Dec 92 20:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: todd.paulus%theweb@meaddata.com (Todd Paulus) 

JL>Todd, I have no off-line reader so just type in comments as I go. This
JL>is Connextion BBS in Ohio.  I"m too new here to know just which suburb
JL>or town near Dayton the BBS is located at.

Since you are on the Main Board, you are in the same BBS I am using.  It
is now called THEWEB, instead of the CONEXION.  Tim changed the name a
couple of months ago, or so.  I think I suggested SLMR offline mail
reader in an earlier message, so won't repeat all that. <G>

Regards,
Todd

---
 . OLX 2.2 . Most people spell COBOLSUX incorrectly.
From: roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Moving to Raleigh, North Carolina
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:31:44 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <1992Dec16.093639.10883@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> shawmd@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael D Shaw) writes:
>Tai Chi, or Kendo in the Raleigh-Carey-Durham area.  Any info would be greatly
>
  Contact Mr. Ken Strawn of the Charlotte Kendo Club
  (704)399-0774

  Practice is at Latta Recreation Center
  510 E Park Ave
  Charlotte, North Carolina
  Saturdays 9:30 am -12:00

Good luck.


-- 
Robert Stroud       Robert_Stroud@simulacrum.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club   Portland Oregon USA
From: dsr@bnr.co.uk (D.S.Riches)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Judo.  A technique that has worked for me.
Date: 16 Dec 1992 18:51:25 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, England.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.199.202.51

In article <1992Dec16.104028.27544@ms.uky.edu> taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>necessary to step on his LF with my RF in order to accomplish this.

[stuff deleted]

>How's that?

Well apart from the standing on his feet which is illegal if the ref
saw it then that's great :-)

A variation on the theme, is if you happen to have both hands gripping
when you do the throw is that the hand which has the lapel grip... flip
the opponent's jacket off their shoulder as you pull down.  This traps
the arm and makes it difficult for uke to turn out of the throw.

You can practise without a partner by holding your hands in front of
you at about chest height, arms bent and then 
with your hands move each one of them from in front of you to about 6 inches
away in a semi circle movement ending in a downward pull with both...


             __          __
            /   \       /  \
 	    |   x	x  |
	    |              |
	    |              |

something like that anyway :-)

It works very well with o uchi gari anyway.
   Dave Riches
   Email:  David.S.Riches@bnr.co.uk
   Smail:  BNR Europe Ltd, London Road,
           Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA.  England
   Phone:  +44 (0)279-402496
   Fax:    +44 (0)279-451434
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re: science and ki
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:59:09 EST

13-Dec-92 21:24	diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson)	Re: Ki and science

>Why does everyone always single out Physics and make it stand by itself in
>defense of Western Science versus Eastern Mysticism?  It's ludicrous.  If
>you want to understand Aikido from a scientific perspective you have to
>listen to the contributions from Physics, Biology/Physiology, Psychology and
>Sociology (at least).  Knowing how con-artists and magicians manipulate
>people is also really handy, but that could be placed under Psychology.

Actually I only picked on physics because it raised its head in the previous
post.  You're right, there was no need to single out this discipline over the
other sciences.  They are all of dubious value in sum total of human
experience. 

>I've said it before, I'll say it again:  Where did you pick up the awful
>notion that Physicists want to reduce the Universe to a boring,
>intellectually and emotionally dead place?  Aikido is a marvelous vehicle...

You're right, I needn't have singled out physicists.  My dad was a chem. eng.
and an interesting guy... unfortunately he categorically dismissed all things
"eastern" as hokum.

>How much Physics have you studied?  How much Physiology?  Have you given
>science a chance?

Actually my math preparation is too shitty to study physics properly.  Now
physiology I have studied, but so what.  From having a lifetime of observing
the narrowmindedness of most scientific researchers, I don't really feel so
lacking that I don't have their knowledge.  Typically if you mention the
concept of chi in scientific circles of any kind, you will simply raise
eyebrows and discredit yourself--go ahead and try it yourself.  And again, you
are right--it isn't really the disciplines themselves that are the cause
per se, but the fact is that there are a whole bunch of experiences recorded
anecdotally in eastern philosophy and medicine which the west (broadly
speaking and inclusive of the scientific "machine" if you will) has
categorically denied could be true.  These denials have taken place
irrespective of the fact that it was Chinese medicine that was using foxglove
(current derivative: digitalis) to treat heart disease 2000 years before
western medicine had a clue; irrespective of the Chinese discovery of the
circulation of the blood at least 1000 years before the west; irrespective of
entire categories of medical discoveries that the west didn't know until
within the last 100 years.  And still, your average joe-blow western scientist
will categorically dismiss these as random occurances that were not
scientifically derived--which of course is bullshit.

I know, you're right.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mckellar@cs.UAlberta.CA (Neil McKellar)
Subject: Re: Time to achieve rank
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:27:55 GMT

wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

[ Interesting analogy to handling a car in a skid removed... ]

>	I feel that this level can be reached in judo more quickly than
>in other grappling arts, such as aikido.  This is a Good Thing for a beginner.

This is a "Good Thing" for the beginner who survives the first few skids.
This is a "Bad Thing" for the beginner who gets injured or seriously scared
by his first few skids and decides that, not only is he unable to handle
skids, but he will never be able to learn to handle skids.  (Personal Note:
I have seen this happen in Aikido classes, so I'm sure that it happens in
Judo classes.)

Let's face it, some people like a good rush and some don't.  If you want
everyone to have the chance to train, Good Thing's (TM) had better come in
a wide variety of speeds and intensities.  That's WHY there are different
grappling arts. :-)

                                                      Neil

--
Neil McKellar (mckellar@cs.ualberta.ca)

"It'th utter chaoth down here!" -- Blazing Saddles
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Discussing technique
Date: 18 Dec 92 17:56:05 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec18.024724.19987@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson) writes:
>Virtually all the technical discussion centres around Japanese MAs
>I'm sure this is because they have a highly elaborated terminology which
>enables/encourages the initiates to talk technique, and this also seems to
>suit the American mind set - plenty of posters to this group exhibit an
>highly mechanistic view of the body and its MA applications -
>witness the physiological/anatomical jargon which they like to use.

	When you work with the Japanese on a computer project, you'll
notice that most of the technical jargon is in English.  When you work
with the Japanese on a martial arts project, you'll notice that most
of the technical jargon is in Japanese.  I don't think this is because
of elitism or any particular mindset, but rather because it's silly to
invent a whole new glossary to describe what you're doing.

>
>it doesn't really address a general MA audience - 

	Once again, one of the most valuable things about the net is that
I'm learning about other arts.  Including the names of techniques.  Please
continue to use the _proper_ terminology.  We can always ask if there's
something we don't understand.  

>It will be interesting to be able to judge the credentials of posters
>by seeing them in action.

	Hell, spring for a plane ticket :-)
								W.rat
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dsmythe@netcom.com (Dave Smythe)
Subject: Re: group for judo?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:14:34 GMT

In article <Bz6qts.AE7@pcuf.fi> jlahti@pcuf.fi (Jarmo Lahti) writes:
>I have been reading this group some half a year now, and I must
>say, that even if this is interesting, it is too much...

Use a kill-file.  Kill everything, and only re-mark articles containing
the word JUDO.

>Because I am interested of more judo related stuff, I would like
>to subscribe something like rec.martial-arts.judo, but at least
>here it seems not to be found that. Is there somewhere in the net?

Shouldn't be.  The consensus around here seems to be that the cross-
pollination that occurs (when the terminology is not too much of a
barrier) from having different styles discussed in the same forum
far outweighs the minimal effort required to ignore messages that you
are not interested in.  If your newsreader doesn't do this for you,
get a better one.  RN, TRN, NN, TIN, GNUS should all be able to handle it...

D

-- 
========================================================================
Dave Smythe   N6XLP    dsmythe@netcom.com (also dsmythe@cs.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bwebb@nrchh129.RICH.nt.com (Brad Webb)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques (M. Malmros)
Organization: Northern Telecom, Inc.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:36:24 GMT

>In article <1992Dec10.210038.29499@reed.edu> todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner) writes:
>
>   What techniques would you use if you _really_ had to stop someone?
>   If the proverbial 7'-300lb-PCP using-steroid monkey-whose spent half
>   his life in Folsom prison-and wants to rip your lungs out was in the
>   alley with you and you could set up one or two shots what would they
>   be? No guns or knives allowed.

I would have used my magic blade from god but you said no, shucks.

To be outright honest, my instictive reaction would probably end up being a 
  counter-punch to the solar-plexus/jaw.  Maybe wrong, but it would be instinct.

If I had just 5 seconds to think on it, however it would be the 1) knee kick, 
followed in order by a 2)groin or 2)spine shot, or a 3)throat jab(knife-hand),
assuming he is on top of me.

I see most of us answering this question like this, however I wonder if that
would be the instinctive thing that most of us would do??

HEY MARY...

in answer to your question about the effects of booze on the solar plexus,
in my SECOND (2nd) year of training( 10 yr ago), I went to class after three 
or four drinks.   (NEVER AGAIN!! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!!!)

Dumb move.  While I was still very strong(for hitting/blocking), and could 
move/punch/block relativly well,  I could not take a shot worth spit.

One of other students hit me in the solar plexus and nearly doubled me over.
He was 50 pounds lighter, a year(maybe 18 months) less experienced, and to
be honest I don't think he hit me that hard.  I just couldn't coordinate
the muscles around the solar plexus enough to lock for the punch.

The effects may be different on people high on other Narcotics. I don't know.

Now if you hit someone to the jaw, it's a little bit different physical 
reaction.  Your talking shock to the brain/nerve centers there.  You are
not talking disrupting various body functions(ie breathing, heart beat, 
stomach, bowels, etc.) which is what may occur from a solar plexus strike.

My 2 cents.


B. Webb, Dallas, Tx.
From: kato@leland.Stanford.EDU (Daniel William Roth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: forearm choke
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:23:10 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <1992Dec20.032647.28210@midway.uchicago.edu> wag5@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>Suppose someone of greater size puts one in a forearm choke from behind.
>The attack was launched with a leap and the inertia of the leap carries both
>to the pavement, resulting in damage to the face for the victim.
>The goal of teh attacker now is to remain on top slowly choking
>the victim to unconsciousness or breaking the neck, whichever occurs
>first. What would be some remedies for the victim of such an attack
>as proposed by you of various martial arts?
>
>			John
>			wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
>

If the choker knows what he's doing, you're dead.
If I have you in that position, I don't care if you're
the Master of all Masters. You can't escape.  And it
won't be a matter of slowly choking you to unconsciousness;
you're Adam's Apple will be crushed instantly, and perhaps
you're neck will be broken too.

The best you can hope for is that the person didn't get a good hold
on your neck, in which case you may have a second or two to
get out of the hold before he/she cements the death hold.  Hopefully
your reactions would be such that you begin you escape before you
hit the ground.

Daniel Roth
kato@leland.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:02:28 GMT

toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman) writes:
>If "rely on pain for effectiveness" means that you get broken if you
>don't comply with the technique, then what doesn't rely on pain ?
>Every strike or lock I can think of does.

Think harder ;-)  I don't mean that in an unfriendly sense, just
by way of suggesting that you are focusing too narrowly on the
standard range of Aikido options.  How about techniques that
knock out your opponent, blind him, destroy or severly impair
his mobility, kill him outright?  Pain is usually all you need
to get compliance, but it is not absolutely necessary.  And not,
in this case, even useful.  The PCP-head is way too dangerous to
play with.  But he's not omnipotent.
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts