From: johnson@elec.uq.oz.au (Craig Johnson)
Subject: Re: Election
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:25:01 GMT

BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU writes:

>Dear Lon;

>>What you are talking about is the doctrine, held by some, of double
>>predestination.  This doctrine was specifically repudiated by the
>>early church, which at the same time supported the doctrine of
>>election as outlined.  Again (I seem to be recommending this a lot
>>lately), read the Canons of the Council of Orange, available from
>>the CHRISTIA library.  Send the message GET COUNCIL ORANGE to
>>LISTSERV@ASUACAD.  Personally, I do not hold to the doctrine of
>>double predestination.

>>One can, however, make a good case for it from the passage in
>>Romans 9:19ff.

>Thanks for the info.  I'll get that document.

>I have always used Scofield's definition of election as a working definition:

>(1) "the sovreign act of God in grace whereby certain persons are chosen from
>among mankind for himself", (2) the sovreign act of God whereby certain
>elect persons are chosen for distinctive service for him."

>I define predestination as 'to determine beforehand the occurrence of events'

>Are these the definitions you would use for election and predestination?
>If not, would you mind giving your definition for the terms?


>Brian

Brian & Lon (and others?),

	Hope you don't mind me butting in on this, but since it
was a public post I thought a public reply would be okay.

	The first point I'd like to make is on the definition of
predestination, above.  As one who would hold to, let's say a 
"reformed and calvanistic" teaching of predestination, I would see
no problem with the definition above.  However, there needs to be
some clarification of terms.  A friend of mine would say that the
word "determine" can be used in a sense of "looking ahead and 
foreseeing the result", say like the classical crystal ball type
imagery.  His defence would be in the sense that you can 
"determine" the results of a physics experiment beforehand, i.e.
calculation.  However, although we do use the word in that sense
I think that it is a rather free use of the word.  Generally
speaking (and I looked in a dictionary to check this!), the word
"determine" has a more active sense to it, such as to decree or
decide within one's own will, so to speak, as in "I have determined
to do this-or-that" and "I am determined to go to such-and-such".
In other words, I don't really think "determine" in biblical terms
can mean the "crystal ball" sense.  So this might be something to
keep in mind in your definition.

	Secondly and lastly, I just want to comment on your other
post in which you talked about election being the "arbitrary choice
of God" (or something similar).  I would like to note that in my
understanding of election God did not choose arbitrarily - that
would go against the whole nature of God.  You see, arbitrariness
has the idea of randomness and thoughtlessness, which is against
the nature of God.  In God's election of some to salvation, His
choice must have been wise, good, purposeful and rational, for 
these are characteristics of our God (see e.g. Ephesians 1:11,
Romans 16:27).  Exactly what was the foundation or basis for His
choice is not revealed to us and so is not to be speculated upon
by us, but we must have faith that His choice was wise and good.

	Thanks for your time...(I gotta go do an assignment!)

				In Christ,
				Craig Johnson.
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