HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:15 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1ik2f2INN6v1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bd474@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill McDonald) writes:
# In a previous article, 71773.3463@CompuServe.COM (Brian  T. Millin) says:
# ##From the San Jose Mercury News, 1/7/93
# #
# #A 1.4 Million dollar settlement has been awarded to the widow and children
# #of a man who was fatally shot in the back by his own military style rifle
# #that malfunctioned and sprayed bullets around a shooting range.
# #
# #To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
#                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# #sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
#                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^
# #full auto. It tore loose from his grip and moved backward, firing one
# #bullet through his back killing him instantly. The rifle dumped 7 rounds
# #in less than one second, lodging under the tire of his truck 38 feet away.
# #
# #The exporter, the importer, the distributor and the local shop are all to
# #pay a portion of the award. A local gunsmith testified that he had
# #personally seen 4 malfunctioning models in this county alone, and the
# #settlement requires Navy Arms to publish warnings in national firearms
# #magazines. The Navy Arms attorney called the death a freak accident, then
# #went on to say that the firm warned people to test-fire the weapon because
# #it had been known to slam fire.
# 
# Translation for a noviate, please (A noviate that sees lots of SKSs
# around the shooting range--mostly under user's control ;-)  )
# 
# McD

"Let the bolt drop" -- released the bolt to chamber the first round.

"Slam-fired" -- the firing pin was frozen in the forward position.
When it chambered the first round, the firing pin fired it -- and
then the mechanism chambered the second round, the firing pin still
frozen forward, which fired the second round, and so on, until the
gun was out of ammunition.

Because of this incident, I STRONGLY recommend that ANYONE buying
an SKS check to see if the firing pin is free to move before firing
it.  I so informed a customer, who checked and found that goo in the
firing pin assembly made it less than anxious to retract.  After he
completely disassembled and cleaned it, it was MUCH more willing to
go back into the bolt.

Note that the firing pin on the SKS isn't springloaded, so the normal
force of the round in the chamber is what pushes back the firing
pin.  This means that it isn't obvious, except by lightly touching
the firing pin, if it is frozen or not.

Any new gun -- load one round.  Then load two.  But especially cheap
stuff like the SKS.  If only these incidents would happen to criminals,
instead of law-abiding gun owners.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: wes@hpbs2500.boi.hp.com (Wes Nielson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:01 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho

Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen (ole@delab.sintef.no) wrote:
: Well, dillon makes a case trimmer which consists of a trimming die
: which you mount in the press and a motor driven trimmer head. Fast,
: easy and accurate. Of course, you have to deburr the case afterwards,
: although it makes a very clean cut. I have shot cartridges trimmed
: with this trimmer without deburring, and it didn't seen to affect
: accuracy much. (This is NOT a BR rifle)
: My only complaint is that they make it only in .223, .308 and 30-06.
: However, a trimming die could be made fairly easily from a standard
: sizing die, it should only be a matter of some drilling, turning and
: threading.
:
The Jan 93 Blue Press indicates that the trimmer is available in the following
calibers: .223, .222, .22-250, .30-30, .243, .308, .220 swift, 6mm, .25-06,
270, .30-06, 7mm rem mag, 338 win mag, 458 win mag, 300 win mag, and
300 wby mag. The price is listed as $164.95.

-- 
Wes Nielson
wes@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:23:04 GMT


Raymond Man writes:
[much of excellent posting deleted]
#reliable and free of jams. A hangfire will not even be noticed until the
#gun is reloaded at base. (What happened to the relaiblity of the Apachi

I think what is meant here is a misfire - current is applied to the primer
but nothing happens. In that case the dud cartridge simply goes along with
the empties. A hangfire, where there is a slight time delay between 
the current applied to the primer and the primer initiation, causes severe
damage to Gatling guns because the cartridge then fires while being
extracted. In other words the gun only allows for the cartridge to be
in the chamber and fire for a very short time, whereupon extraction
occurs regardless of the state of the cartridge. In this situation misfires/
duds are tolerable, while hangfires are not. There have been a few cases
of these in USAF aircraft in recent years.


#from their traditional 30mm, while the US up to 25mm from their trusted 20mm.

WRT fixed wing the 25mm is only used in the AV-8B (from 30mm) and the AC-130U
(up from 20mm), In both cases the main use is against ground targets. The
gun for the ATF/YF-22 is to be (was to have been?) a new 20mm with a new
ammunition family.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
Xref: sparky rec.guns:19074 talk.politics.guns:26094
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Surplus Ammo
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:38 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: AT&T

In article <C0E5t2.I0G@apollo.hp.com> rielly_s@apollo.hp.com (Stephen M. Rielly) writes:
#Does anyone have any insight to the persistent
#rumors about surplus ammo not being imported anymore 
#after Clinton gets in? Any ideas or speculations on 
#this? 

Clinton is likely to use China's most favored nation trade status
as a lever to get the Chinese to liberalize their "human rights"
policies.  One method which would appease the gun grabbers is to ban
the importation of China made ammo. as an attention getter to get
China to appease Clinton's view of societal correctness.

The SKS and the 7.62x 39 cartridge don't have much political support.

(Yes, follow-ups to t.p.g.)

BDW
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Handgun silencer
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:49 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  (Oh yeah, "suppressor".)  At any rate I stopped in the Reference
Collection at our library to check Jane's Infantry Weapons volume
to settle a question in the "SKS" thread - while Ezell gives
"a" endings, Michael Zeleny has pointed out that masculine
endings should be used, and I was wondering what Jane's had to
say about the matter.  Well, Jane's (1990-91 edition) never gives 
a transliteration of the Russian name, so I couldn't find out 
anything additional.

  But while I was looking in the book I came across a listing for
the La France suppressor (La France Specialties, San Diego, CA)
for the Colt. .45 ACP Gov't Model.  This is an aluminum and 
plastic cylindrical thingie which attaches to the *slide*, and
which bears the sights for the pistol.  It has no wipers and so
no particular limit on the number of shots fired.  Apparently 
it is a U.S. armed forces issue weapon.

  The barrel is made to be fixed in place, and the pistol is
therefore converted to straight blowback semi-automatic operation.  
The mass of the silencer is such as to have the slide/silencer 
combination work properly in blowback mode.  La France also
makes models for the Browning GP35 Hi-Power and the Beretta
M92 according to the brief writeup.

--henry schaffer
From: steveg@access.digex.com (Stephen Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Class III in Maryland
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:07 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Just thought i'd drop a quick note to rec.guns readers
about the particulars of Class III ownership in Maryland.
Class III (fully automatic weapons - machine guns) are
allowed in the state and they have a special branch of
the state police which processes transfers. You will
have to submit your form 4's to them, with a picture
and some fingerprints, plus $18 for a NCIC criminal
check. It will take them a week or two to return your
signed forms.

That's it! Some of you may have heard the horror stories
about getting signatures on forms for Class III weapons.
I was involved with 2 other individuals in bringing legal
action against a discrimnatory police chief. Luckily (for
him, and my wallet), I moved and now see what all states
should adopt.. a uniformed, regulated system where
law abiding citizens can have their form 4's processed.

I'm checking into Virginia's system too, as I may be moving
there. I'll keep you posted.

Keep on rocking and rolling -

Steve

[MODERATOR:  I've heard this too, though not gone through the
system myself here.  Ironically, what Steve describes above is
more streamlined than getting a handgun  ... my most recent
purchase was made on 12-16-92, with the background check filed
that same day.   Still waiting for it to come back so I can 
pick up my pistol (checked today in fact.)]
From: mailrus!gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@uunet.UU.NET (Ben Klausner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Extend HK-91/93 Buttstock?
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:01 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department

A friend of mine has an HK-91 rifle, but finds that the plastic stock is a 
little too short for his long arms. On other (wooden stock) rifles, he has
added a rubber recoil protector, more for the extra inches than for the
padding.  Unfortunately, neither of us can see a way to do this on a HK
without using glue, or some such. This is not an optimal solution.

Does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks.

-- 
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  inet: ben@yenta.alb.nm.us     |  N5DJL       | My opinions are my own.
  CI$:  76337,1730              |              | Who else would want them?
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: fontenot@comet.rice.edu (Dwayne Jacques Fontenot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 1993 SHOT Show
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:18:46 GMT
Organization: Rice University

hello,

I am in Houston. I have seen one posting that said the 1993 SHOT Show
was going to be here in January sometime. Has it already happened?
When is it? Can ordinary people attend? I welcome any information
about the SHOT Show.

Thank you for your time,

Dwayne Fontenot
From: edhresko@hresko.eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Report on Chech Vz-52 pistol.
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:24 GMT
Organization: Techno-Geeks Inc.


	Too bad that you seem to have a lemon of a pistol.  My Vz will 
consistiently group around 1" at 25 yards.  A recent issue of Combat Handguns 
also could get groups around this range.  This is due to the inherent accuracy
of the fixed barrel.
-- 


Eric

******************************************************************************
Eric Hresko		* Mail:  edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu                        
Kanki House of Steaks   * Voice: (why would you want to call?) 1-919-821-5168
Dishwasher 2nd Class    * HK Rules!!! (But a FAL will do in a pinch)         
DISCLAIMER:  I don't wear sandals, eat granola, or tiptoe thru the Tulips    
                                                                             
At what temp will a frog become a superconductor?                             
				-Me at 3 a.m.                                
******************************************************************************
From: heedah@tc.fluke.COM (Hide Iba)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Walther P-38 9mm
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:28:30 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

I just purchased a used (but in very good condition) P-38.
If anyone can help me get a owner's manual (in English) or some 
other book showing detailed "knockdown/cleaning" instruction, I would
appriciate the help very much.

I'm also interested in getting some information on getting extra magazines
(at a reasonable price) and nice grips.

Thanks in advance!

[MODERATOR:  Later our poster sends ... ]

I forgot a few more questions in my original post:

How much should I have paid for this gun? 
    (Remember, it's in pretty good condition)

What should I feed it?

It seems to like my FMJ. But would it take anything else?

Thanks again!
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 'falling' bullets
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:05:30 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <1993Jan9.200718.19467@bongo.tele.com> julian@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey) writes:
#	Yes, it would be nice to run some tests firing bullets
#straight up and horizontally and seeing what damage they do when
#landing, but the problem is finding them when they come down.

Such tests have been done, and the returning bullets were found to
have done the following:

1. dented soft pine to a depth of about 1/16".
2. 2 bullets dented the soft sheet metal of a pail, one hitting
   on it's side.
3. dented slightly the wood of a thwart in a boat.

The free falling velocity of a bullet is based on the sectional
density and the ballistic coeffecient of the falling bullet.  For a
150 grain boattail .30 caliber bullet the velocity is about 300 fps,
for a .50 BMG weighing about 750 grains the final velocity would be
something more like 500 fps.

A note: each and every time this little tiff (the "falling bullet"
stories) comes up on the net we have everyone come out of the woodwork
claiming to know of deaths caused by "falling bullets" - none have
ever been shown to me to have been a *vertically* falling bullet.  It
seems to me that much of the fuss is in the difference between
"vertical" and "from the sky".  Vertical means 90 degrees, or
something approximating 90 degrees, anything else isn't vertical.  A
bullet falling vertically no longer contains any of the impulse given
by the original firer and is simply a free-falling object, subject to
simple physical laws.  A bullet fired in a less-than vertical manner
will strike a lot sooner, and retain some if not most of the original
impulse imparted by the firearm.

In any case it's takes someone of monumental stupidity to fire a
firearm in any direction without knowing where the bullet will stop. 
If you're into that kind of celebration go out and get yourself some
blanks or something, but don't fire into the air.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex or ?
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:18 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1993Jan8.150758.18268@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
# ...
##   It is GOSPEL among black powder shooter that only black powder
##or pyrodex is to be used in muzzleloaders (which includes cap and
                ^^^^^^^^^^
##ball revolvers.
#
#I wonder what the response would be on Usenet if you told the readership
#that they had to do something because "the Bible says so"? Remember,
#the instruction manual for my "Old Army" says "blackpowder only!". Not
#a word about Pyrodex. Someone at Ruger, an engineer perhaps, came to
#the conclusion that Pyrodex was an acceptable substitute for blackpowder
#and informed me by letter. What is to say that other, better propelent
#substitutes are not possible?

  Methinks that there is some confusion in words here.  There is a
difference between "used" (which I take as meaning practical use -
i.e. - go ahead and do this) and "possible" which means that
experiments (properly and safely conducted) are reasonable.
# ...
#I recently  undertook  to test a few of my theories regarding the
#use of smokeless powder in a Ruger Old Army revolver. If anyone
#asks, all test shots were conducted  in a proof house by remote
#control, in full anticipation of the destruction of both gun and
#the structure that held it.  ...

  Even if your precautions weren't quite so resistant to
thermonuclear explosion, this is *clearly* an experimental
regime.
# ...
#To make a long story short, if there is a smokeless powder that can
#be used in this gun, it isn't Unique (tm).  ...

  I'm wondering if a larger quantity of a slower burning powder, 
perhaps even a rifle powder, might raise the energy more than 
the peak pressure level.
# ...
#As for those who believe we should not be allowed to discuss this 
#subject, I say:
#
#"Well, I'll tell you: in all my days, I've never seen, heard, nor
#smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn't be talked about.
#Hell, Yes! I'm for debating anything." Stephen Hopkins

  But make it clear that it isn't a recommendation for use.

--henry schaffer
From: sestes@ncc.uky.edu (Scott Estes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger's sins?
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:12 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Folks,

Would someone kindly tell me why I keep seeing things like "I love Rugers
but I won't buy one for poltical reasons?"  Dispassionately, please...if
I wanted polemic, I'd read the New York Times or the American Rifleman...

thanks,

Scott
--
                       Scott Estes  sestes@ncc.uky.edu 
            "Thought I saw angels, but I could of been wrong...."

[MODERATOR: Off line, please...]
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Slam-fire Translation
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:44 GMT

##To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
##sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^
#Translation for a noviate, please (A noviate that sees lots of SKSs
#around the shooting range--mostly under user's control ;-)  )

"Let the bolt drop" means that he released the bolt to chamber the
first round.

"Slam-fire" means that the gun fired when the bolt closed, without
someone touching the trigger.

My theory:

The guy got the gun and didn't bother to clean it before shooting.
There was probably dirt or gunk in the bolt, causing the firing pin
to stick forward.  When he released the bolt, the gun fired.  Since
he didn't have it under control, the gun proceeded backwards.  The
firing pin remained stuck, causing all rounds to chamber and fire.

Rob
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10 mm autopistols
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:11 GMT


Chris Luchini writes:
#        Supposidly the problem is fixed, and the FBI is/will be
#        issuing the 10mm's again.


Interesting, therefore, that the S&W 1075, the FBI model, is listed in
the "Discontinued/Closeout" section of Ron Shirks' sale brochure.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: sscott@mcs.kent.edu (Stephen Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Federal Firearms License ?
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:48 GMT
Organization: Kent State University

Does anyone know how I may go about obtaining a Federal Firearms
License.  I understand that I will be able to mailorder as a
dealer after obtaining one.  This has been a hassle a number of
times (not having one) as my father and I have had to drive many
miles at times to pickup guns purchased.

What other type of license would I have to have to own and use
(target of course) some of the full auto "toys" that some of you
are talking about.  Will this license transfer to any location
within the US should I move?  My reason I would like this other
license is that I would like to purchase one of the new M16's that
shoot the 3-shot bursts.  Although not full auto in one sense - I
imagine it is classified as such.  Anyone know if an individual
may purchase one of these.

Thanks in advance,

Stephen.
From: skimmel@amex-trs.com (Steve Kimmel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AR-15 in 7.62x39
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:07 GMT
Organization: American Express Travel Related Services

A few AR-15 questions.
1. Can the lower receiver for the AR-15 in 7.62x39 (the model name escapes me)
   be used with an upper receiver chambered in .223?
2. Can the bolt and/or bolt carrier used in the 7.62x39 model be used in 
   an upper with a .223 barrel?
3. The magazines that come with the 7.62x39 model have a 5 round capacity.
   several people have commented that the regular 5 round .223 mags can have
   the blocker removed.  Can the 7.62x39 mags be modified for the same result?
   I seem to remember reading that the standard .223 mags could be used as-is
   but that only 5 rounds should be loaded due to the effect of the case
   taper.  Does the 7.62x39 magazine use a different follower designed for
   that round or are they standard .223 magazines?

The reason I'm asking is because that model is going for about $550 locally
and I was thinking of getting one (while I still can) and at some later
point getting a .223 upper(s).       

                                     Thanks.
-- 
Steve Kimmel   N7ULW           Phoenix, AZ      |                         
Internet skimmel@amex-trs.com                   | my views only, in no way
UUCP	 uupsi!amexphx!skimmel                  | the views of my employer.
From: wagner@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: New Canadian Gun Laws (part 1)
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:09:51 GMT


Further to Holger Reusch's request on international gun laws.....

Canada just finished an amnesty program where owners were allowed to turn in
unwanted weapons "no questions asked".  At the same time a whole new set of
rules were laid upon us by Ms. Kim Cambell (minister irresponsible for ...)

Will try to paraphrase in 3 parts, the first of which is the law regarding
your right to buy, borrow or loan a firearm.  Without a valid FAC (Firearms
Acquisition Certificate) you can't do any of the former.

New rule came in January first to replace the old rule.  Major change is the 
cost ($50.00)

A number of points were in the rule a few are as follows (along with my
personal comments in brackets).  Anything in quotes is from govt publication
#JUS-P-626.

To acquire an FAC:
	-"current photograph which accurately identifies you"
	-names of 2 references (get this these are valid references...
		"social worker or alcohol/drug addiction counsellor" (sir,
		I need a restricted weapon, will you sign this form for me!)
		"licensed or accredited occupation or profession such as lawyer
		engineer, electrician, plumber" (nothing against plumbers but
		while he {or she} is fixing your taps he just might be ready to
		sign as a reference for you). "spouse if 18 years or older" (no
		comment)

As part of the screening process "It is also possible, when you apply for an
FAC, that the firearms officer may interview neighbours, community or social
workers, your spouse, dependants or any other person who may know you" 

	honest officer, he only beat me 3 times last year
	my neighbour, yeah I know him,  he threatened to shoot my cat
	can't say I know him too well, only lived in the neighborhood about 10
		years and he has been here that long, hear he howls at the moon
		a couple of times a month....

Get real...

This is only to borrow or buy a weapon (all weapons except air actuated).

Will give you the story on the rest soon.

Comments please.

73, Tom

AKA VE7GDA on the ham bands (amateur radio)