HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: csabatier@nola.win.net (Conrad J. Sabatier)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: From a new subscriber
Date: 22 Dec 1992 18:53:22 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Reply-To: csabatier@nola.win.net (Conrad J. Sabatier)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
X-Unparseable-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:11.26.49

I've just joined this group and am wondering who is this Clayton
person?  Sounds like another straight interloper.  Seems there's
always at least one on any gay discussion group I've ever read. 
My personal feeling is that such characters are best ignored
altogether, as they generally do not seem interested in having a
truly intelligent, reasonable discourse.

Just my personal opinion.

Conrad
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conrad J. Sabatier      Internet:csabatier@nola.win.net
P.O. Box 641303               
Kenner, LA  70064-1303  Windows is to DOS as Color is to B&W, as
(504) 568-9202          Automatic is to Standard, as CD is to vinyl,
                        as ... (your analogy here)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: PHOBE ALERT: Letter to SF Examiner
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:22:01 GMT


A letter-to-the-editor in yesterday's (12/29/92) San
Francisco Examiner, from one Charles D. Friedenstein of
Colorado Springs.  Read on if Newspeak and Doublethink
are your cup of tea...

    ---------------------------------------------------

I have been deeply hurt by the misrepresentation of our
state's vote to prohibit special minority status to
homosexuals.

The amendment merely says they should have no more rights
than our typical citizen.  I know (the organization) Colorado
for Family Values is not driven by fear, bigotry or hate -- I
personally know most of the leadership.  They do have deep
concern over the spreading emotional and medical damage caused
by homosexual behavior.  Many Colorado residents are involved
in assisting those trapped in this life-style to cope and
pursue a path toward recovery instead of doubt, turmoil and
premature death.

I interpret the vote as a plea to those risking their lives
and the lives of others.  We do not raise our voice in
defiance or anger, but in restraint, empathy and assistance.
Colorado is not a hate state, but the first state to take a
stand of tough love toward preserving society.

    -------------- end of letter ------------------------

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:00:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.001422.25655@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>The trouble with "info" is that it doesn't separate
>anything.

I really can't agree, both on practical grounds (if not "info," then
what?) and the issue of clarity.

>News is info.  How we lead our lives is info.
>Political philosophy and activism are info.

Which of these are the sort of "info" that people are going to regard
as important general knowledge?  More to the point, which of these
will be regarded as informational enough to warrant being singled out
in the newsgroup name as "info?"

Whether or not "info" is a term of obvious meaning, it's unclear to me
what could be the alternative.  soc.motss.news?  Come on -- everything
on Usenet is "news."  soc.motss.announce?  Only if we're ready to post
messages regarding MOTSS v2.0, patchlevel 8.  Bleah.
soc.motss.important?  What?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: The Melmon Method (was Dworkin)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 00:56:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.195344.12676@netcom.com>
solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

>"A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle". Matt
>Groening (in _Life_in_Hell_) paraphrased it as "A man without a
>woman is like a fish run over by a bicycle".

A man without a woman does not exist.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: randyc@autodesk.com (Randy Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Top GLB Fiction
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:49:44 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA


In article <1992Dec19.023340.17274@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
writes:
>There are certainly gay science fiction writers, but I don't think they
>write very well.

	?????  In general probably true, but I think Delaney
	among the best SF/fantasy writers working today.

	(I'll attempt to forestall the otherwise inevitable
	chorus of people saying he's bisexual by pointing
	out he often describes himself as "gay.")

	In other respects, Jojo, I liked your post.

	Cheers,

	-R

--
Ignorant people think it's the *noise* which fighting cats make
that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening
grammar they use.  -- Mark Twain
Randy Clark			{}!autodesk.com!randyc
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: URGENT: European Commission Appointment
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 05:32:51 GMT

kellyc@ul.ie writes:


>From Ireland this morning come the news that Mr Padraig Flynn is to 
>be nominated as the next EC commissioner from Ireland.

>Since early 1992 he has been Minister for Justice. His department is the one 
>which is responsible for dealing with the decriminalistion of homosexuality 
>in Ireland. Since he was appointed Minister in that Department, the 
>Government's stance on reforming these laws has changed from one of `it is
>being dealt with and will be presented in due course' to a stance declaring 
>`it is bottom of the agenda', and `it will not be dealt with in the 
>foreseeable future'.

>It needs to be done NOW. The appointments will be formally made before 
>Christmas.

So, anyone know if the "Irish Jesse Helms" was made EC Commissioner for
Social Affiars or not?

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. ***Clinton-Gore 92!***
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
"Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a cure for AIDS in the marketplace before
Magic Johnson gets AIDS?" --Vice-President J. Danforth Quayle 11/13/91 on CNN.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gal@crchh503.bnr.ca (Gene Lavergne)
Subject: Re: The Rev. Robert Williams is dead.
Reply-To: gal@crchh503.bnr.ca (Gene Lavergne)
Organization: Bell Northern Research
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 19:03:11 GMT

In article <Dec.26.20.35.23.1992.29867@andromeda.rutgers.edu>,
           lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew) writes:

|>Jack Spong, my beloved bishop, called me about 7:00 o'clock tonight 
|>with the news that Robert Williams died of AIDS in Boston.  AP had
|>called Jack, who told them, (I paraphrase), I learned much from him;
|>I am sorry that he is dead.

I met him when he and his other half visited during the holidays
with me and my ex.

|>Rest in Peace, Robert.  ...

May he rest in peace.  There was little evidence of peace within him
when I met him (before ordination).  I followed his career since his
ordination via the press (Advocate).  Peace seemed to elude him then.
I hope he has finally found it.

I, too, learned much from him, though it is not what he intended.

--

| gal@bnr.ca (Gene A. Lavergne) | In all of opera, I most identify |
| ESN 444-4842 / (214) 684-4842 | with the character of Elektra.   |
| PO Box 851986, Richardson, TX | That often worries me.           |
| USA 75085-1986 | Opinions expressed here are mine and not BNR's. |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (Is: the empowerment of women)
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1hlktjINNdfc@mizar.usc.edu> <17742@umd5.umd.edu>
	<1hobqeINNre0@mizar.usc.edu> <1993Jan3.014408.18528@toolz.uucp>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:14:32 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1993Jan3.014408.18528@toolz.uucp> todd@toolz.uucp (Todd Merriman) writes:

   It's sad that fashion dictates that women must hide behind a
   mask of makeup to be "beautiful."  The idea that women are
   attractive only when you cannot see their real selves is an 
   idea perpetuated by men because (1) it support a multi-billion
   dollar cosmetics industry owned mostly by men, and (2) it is
   demeaning to women to not be able to be accepted as they really
   are.  Thus, men are able to maintain a power structure that
   obviously favors men and puts-down women; and makes lots of money
   in the doing!   

I think this is very simplified and dubious historical perspective.
Make-up has been around for a few centuries (used by men and women).

As in all things, there's no reason that make-up can't be used without
demeaning anyone.  (I say this as a very non-made up person...)
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: mikel@dosbears.UUCP (Mike Lipsie)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Diet differences with your partner?
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:32:01 GMT
Reply-To: dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
Organization: DOS Bears

In article <184735@pyramid.pyramid.com> sylvan@pyramid.COM (Sylvan Ruud) writes:
>
>I am a vegetarian, and find it difficult to deal with a lover who is not.  There
>are a lot of reasons...  How they (the lovers) taste and smell, cooking two 
>different meals, dealing with shopping issues (the smell of dead meat is rotten 
>smelling to me, and I have a hard time being around it).
>
>So...  How many GLBO folks *are* vegetarians out there?  How have you dealt with 
>this? It seems like more and more folks are moving towards vegetarianism, but it
>is just one more thing that makes it difficult to find that "special partner".

David is a vegetarian (the subset that will eat fish, milk, eggs, and cheese)
and I am an omnivore (if it can't run faster than I, it is in trouble).  We
deal with the "problem" by (a) eating out frequently, (b) having very little
meat in the house, and (c) all shared meals meet our mutual constraints.

--
Mike Lipsie                            584 Castro #614, San Francisco, CA 94114
dosbears!mikel@pyramid.com
mikel%dosbears.uucp@ingres.com    Running rn (for DOS) with UUPC/Extended 1.11k
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lis@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Elisabeth Riba)
Subject: Homophobia (was Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:17:13 GMT

mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:

>I don't really care what label you put on anti-glb* bigotry; I find
>homophobia to be adequate shorthand but I'd be willing to change my
>vocabulary if I had some combination of a good reason to do so and a
>better word offered.  

Okay, I'm not phrasing my explanation very well, but the best term
I've heard for this was heterosexism.  Phobias imply fear, which isn't
exactly the case.  Phobias are... accepted in society.  People make
allowances for them.  I'm not belittling phobias at all.  For a long
time, I went into quaking fear at the thought of needles.  Made trips
to the doctor a real joy, let me tell you.  But people use phobias as
excuses.  And "homophobia" should be inexcusable.

Calling it heterosexism groups it with racism and sexism as
undesirable behavior.  

All this is my VHO.  Other comments?
-- 
--------------->Elisabeth Anne Riba * lis@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu<---------------
   Do not meddle in the affairs	    |  Usenet is like Tetris for people
   of cats, for they are subtle     |  who still remember how to read.
   and will piss on your computer.  |	  So many newsgroups, so little time...
From: gklein@uoft02.utoledo.edu (Gary Klein, bear-at-heart)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:58:27 EST
Organization: Univ of Toledo

In article <1ht8mdINN79g@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) 
writes:
> mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
>> >You really think HP would fire you in violation of their own EE statement? 
>> 
>> It's possible.  In Georgia, I could seek relief in the court system.
>> In Colorado I could not.
>> 
>> Simply have an EE statement does _NOT_ guarantee it will not be violated.
> 
> I agree that you should be able to seek relief in the court system.  But 
> I find so much of the rest to be hysteria.  How many examples can you 
> refer to where companies have violated their own EE policies?  

     Let me bring up some examples JUST from the banking industry.  Sorry that
I don't have the citations in my head, but the following 3 banking firms made
multi-million dollar settlements with HUNDREDS of their own employees, after
dragging it out in Federal courtroom cases for YEARS:

------RACIST policies, inhibiting promotion & pay raises-------
     (several years of inaction at each bank, before charges were filed)
Whitney National Bank/New Orleans
Harris Savings & Trust Bank/Chicago
Chase Manhattan Bank, NA /New York

     And then there are two cases of people who I personally knew, each of whom
was working as a state employee for the very STATE which specifically granted
equal rights based on sexuality. 

------SEXUALITY protection clause, inhibiting promotion & pay raise-----
     (one specific denial of promotion in each of the following cases)

K. Altenberger & State of Ohio's Social Services Dept
     (the first case to be tried in Ohio, filed by a Toledoan, who won
      at every level of appeal filed by the State)

R. Uplinger & State of New York's West Seneca Developmental Center
     (filed by a Buffalonian who won at every level of appeal filed by the
      State) -- FURTHERMORE, Uplinger filed & won a "wrongful dismissal"
      charge against the state, as he was dismissed while the appeal process
      was underway!

     Now it is time for Walt to eat his own words!

(If you don't believe me about these cases, invest in a phone call to the
LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE & EDUCATION FUND in New York City, and they can give you
plenty of statistics of actual court cases of wrongful dismissal, DESPTE having
equal protection clauses on the books of Equal Employment handbooks, guidelines
and government laws).

-- 
"Not your average Leathered Librarian"
      * * * *          Gary Klein,   Business Librarian,   Univ of Toledo
       *   *                     P.O.Box 12650 / Toledo OH 43606
        * *            WORK:   419-537-2629            HOME: 419-243-2740
         *             BITNET: fac2813@uoft01           FAX: 419-537-2726
  B4 t+ w- g s+ k              INTERNET: fac2813@uoft01.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: cc4507@u.cc.utah.edu (Chucki Carpinello)
Subject: Pride Ring Colours on the Necklace
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center Student Mail Machine
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 04:03:49 GMT

Hey ..

	I need to know where I can get a Pride Ring Necklace (?) at a good
price innocently :)
thanX
-chucki


-- 
Chucki Carpinello
__
\/	Chucki.Carpinello@M.CC.Utah.EDU
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 20:21:01 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
> 	OK, Walter, no flak: please share with us the letter
> you sent to the HR division at HP encouraging them to start
> allowing gay and lesbians spouses have all the same privs as
> heterosexual sposuses...  Maybe some of us can use it in letters
> we're writing for your own companies...

Did I say I wrote any letter to HR?  Did I say I had the answers 
on how to get it accomplished?  Nope.  I don't understand why you 
have to take such a rediculous attitude like that, Bob.  *If* I 
could offer them a proven way to do it, that has worked in 
other places, that the company could take seriously, I'd do it. 
But I don't have that. But your thought of having people share 
the ideas they do have to help each other is good.  

Walter
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: "cures" for homosexuality
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 01:20:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec29.011207.16264@midway.uchicago.edu>

Cliff Winnig writes:
>Ellen Keyne Seebacher writes:
>> I don't think Cliff has enough beard for you, George.
>Hmph!  Better start workin' on that ZZ Top beard then, huh?

I tend to think this is generally a good idea.  ;-{)##]

>George Dalton Madison writes:
>> He certainly did at motss.con; I hope that situation hasn't
>> changed for the worse.....  ;-)
>Nope.  Still the same.

Phew!  A couple people I know have had horrible bathroom accidents
involving razor mutilation to the face recently(*); I'm glad you
aren't one of them!

(*) Known as "shaving" to infidels.

>George also writes:
>>Ken Dykes writes:
>>>Brian Jarvis writes:
>>>[Kidnapping Cliff for nefarious purposes]
>
>Gentlemen, I am flattered...more than that, I'm game -- we could use
>it as the basis for an, um, "in-between" motss.con here....

I *like* the way you think.

 
() Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually
() repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said.
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Miracle cure for homophobic states
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 06:28:41 GMT

dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) wrote: 
->In article <1992Dec30.175709.13321@bsu-ucs>, d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman)
->|> Big Brother is queer,
->
->Well, that explains why he is watching me...

he was *cruising* you, silly!

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: gl-asb mailing list created
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 20:07:29 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

...See alt.sex.bondage for details, or write to gl-asb-request@queernet.org.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.* (was Re: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:06:52 GMT

In article <C06H87.Kqz@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
>How about soc.motss.answers?  (Or soc.lesbigay.answers, or whatever,
>depending on the eventual naming.)

I confess not to have been following this discussion very closely;
it tends to put me into a stupor, but has anyone suggested soc.motss.advocacy
yet? :-)


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:13:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec23.021338.12857
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <18223@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:
>I truly hope that this posting was just a flare set off by some triggering
>mechanism, I truly hope that this is not indicative of a deeper more
>persistent pain. 

Sure; endemic and institutionalized misogyny.
We all have our pains in the butt; don't you?

Owen, I think the nice pills are working too well: you remind me of
Milton the Monster and his tincture of tenderness...

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: dise@decoy.uoregon.edu (David Casti)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Colorado #2, Constitutionality
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:35:11 GMT
Reply-To: dise@decoy.uoregon.edu
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: cisco-ts2-line27.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Dec31.015328.13338@bsu-ucs> d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David  
Speakman) writes:

> The U.S. congress could strike the ammendment down.

Are you sure you're not thinking of judicial review?  The congress has no  
power to "strike down" anything.  The best they could do is enact a federal  
statute that was in conflict with the Colorado state constitution.  Even then,  
it could still be tied up in the courts for years...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 14:58:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.013604.8299@asuvax.eas.asu.edu> ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra) writes:
>     And not speaking to you Jess, but at large
>to the general discussion: please, can we be spared
>the "well, her starting point is valid, she just
>comes to the wrong conclusions" jibberish?  I mean,
>so what, just what in hell is *that* supposed to
>prove, besides absolutely nothing?

The point is that not everything Dworkin says is drivel,
yet men (in particular) get so overwrought when they hear
what she says about them that they dismiss everything.  I
find it difficult to take these men seriously as
egalitarians until I see them becoming equally worked up
over the kind of garbage that women are subjected to on a
more regular basis.

Like ???, my concern over Andrea Dworkin has more to do
with her paternalism and her campaign against the first
amendment.  It's troubling to me that rather than accepting
the fact that adults sometimes (often) willingly enter into
unequal relatioships and it's none of her damned business,
she's trying to put some pretty narrow strictures on what
kinds of decisions individual adults should be able to 
make.
--
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss