HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:47:57 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Death of Jesus! Entirely voluntary?

This might seem a silly question, but anyway..

Up to the point of the garden of geth, I have no problems with the idea
that Jesus allowed himself to be killed - "I give my life freely, no
one takes it away", or something like that..

I wonder AFTER the Garden, whether Jesus had the power to save his own life?
I guess it has to do with when the Father imputed Jesus with the sin of
the world. Was it at the Garden? Was it during the trial? Was it on
the cross???

If it was at the garden, then perhaps the events that followed up
to the point of death were out of his control so to speak, and souly in
the hands of the Father??

I dont know, maybe im raving..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 11:56:34 CDT
From:         "St. Jesse of Karnez" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: New nature vs. two natures.
              9 Oct 1992 09:57:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dear Dan ;

We accept the fact that Both Christians and unbelievers alike sin.
One difference is that the Christian has a different attitude toward sin
in contrast to the unbeliever.
The Christian of the true sort HATES sin.  The unbeliever LOVES it.
Also, the NORMAL lifestyle of the unbeliever is sin.
The normal lifestyle of the Christian is NOT sin.
The unbeliever, according to Paul is a SLAVE to sin (Romans 6).  The Christian
however is NOT a slave to sin but to righteousness.
The Christian is also able to PLEASE God.  The unbeliever cannot please
God, according to Paul in Romans 8.

Further, Unbelievers SIN because that is their NATURE.
Christians periodically sin because of caving in to lies from the enemy,
rather than doing so because it is a part of their nature, lifestyle,
or proferred pasttime.

Now, Christians are not immune to "big" sins, as King David was not.
But, we do not HAVE to commit these or any other sin, due to our sealing
by the Holy Spirit who is greater in us than him who is in the world.
Also, our new nature desires the things of God and Christ, whereas the
unbeliever desires to gratify sinful inherent propensities.


How could Christians and non-christians be placed in the same catagory
as regards sin and its power in their lives??
Mayby I misunderstood you ... I hope I did.
Did you understand my points?



Perplexed ;

Jesse
From: rpgrant@vax.path.ox.ac.uk
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Hate mail ? !!!
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:39:56 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre
Nntp-Posting-User: rpgrant

Hi, friends, sisters and brothers, and people with nothing better to do!

OK, so some discussions have been heated ..... but that's inevitable, given how 
strongly we feel about things close to our hearts.  What's amazing, I'll type 
it again ** AMAZING ** is the amount of love and concern I've read here!  
(albeit some of the grammar - mine, mostly - is a bit weak)


Dear Listowners, I support you.

We're family!!

love
Richard
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:50:46 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      statute law as moral standard

A listmember asked Angela Zimmerman:

 > If you don't follow the Bible [on ethics], just what do you
follow?

Angela anwers:

 > If you want my code on how to live, my rules,
 > all you have to do is look at the law books.

Does this mean, Angela, that you would never consider that a
particular law was unjust, and that it was your duty to break it? Do
you hold that there is no moral standard higher than the law of the
land, and that therefore if the laws forbid some action (say
abortion, or picketing abortion clinics, or holding slaves, or
assisting slaves to escape), the mere fact of that the law says so
makes it right? Or do you perhaps think that there is a standard of
justice other than the law-books, but that the laws of this land do
a pretty good job of conforming to that standard? Are all nations so
blessed, or just some, and if so, which ones? Are there any
governments (Hitler's or Stalin's) which it would be a duty to
resist?

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
From: kla!M_Morris%pid.csd@SUN.COM (Mike Morris)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Christian Music
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:19:28 GMT
Organization: KLA Instruments Corporation
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=>
=> You say that music that is honoring to God is 'christian' music. This
=> is a very broad term isnt it.. Can non christian artists therefore
=> write christian music?
=>
=> Has it got something to do with the Spirit behind the music?? The good
=> ol black&white issue of God or the devil may be brought in here.. Is
=> the music inspired by
=> a) the Holy Spirit,
=> b) satanic spirit
=> or c) no spirit at all, simply the human psyche..
=>

Have you guys heard of Bill Gothard and "The Institute for Basic Youth
Conflicts" or some such? He has a very interesting position on music.

I'm not a musician, so I may get this wrong. But Gothard says that the
three parts of music, (1) rythm (2) melody and (3) harmony are matched
up to the three parts of the human (1) body (2) soul and (3) spirit.
(Not in that order.)

His contention is that music with the heavy emphasis on rythm, like
rap/disco, is appealing mostly to the body. Music with a really catchy
tune (melody) appeals to the soul (mind?). And music with lots of
harmony affects the spirit more.

This is at least partly true I think. Certainly disco music affects the
body ("dance music"). Catchy melody music gets "stuck in your head",
right? And some music, like Moody Blues, etc, that has lots of harmony,
has an eerie, mystical feeling about it.

Obviously he makes value judgements about music then by it's relative
content of harmony/rythm/melody.

He goes on with other hypothesis about music too; like endings that
crescendo, end suddenly or just fade away in volume, etc. He gets
pretty esoteric here, implying that how you end a song represents your
escatological views....which is hard for me to swallow!

Anyway, his views are well developed and concise if nothing else.



     ===========================================================
         Mike Morris  --   Internet:  sun!kla!csd!pid!mikem
                         CompuServe:  70142,1653
                          Facsimile:  (408) 434-4261
                              Voice:  "Mike"
     ===========================================================
From: DCC@VASSAR.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Masons
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:56:37 GMT
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Cound someone please give me any and all information they have
pertaining to the Masons and the Masonic Lodge?  Are they involved
in ritualistic magic/practices or is it merely a social organization?

Just curious...

Scott
DCC@VASSAR.BITNET
From: HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET (Wolfgang Hutter)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on commitment
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:13:00 GMT
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER

In a message of Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:14:56 EST
Received on Wed, 14 Oct 92 15:29 N
doug powless <doug.powless@CANREM.COM> wrote:

[...]
>         My problem:  I used to go out and "evangelize" - and I see many
>         people doing it today.  Most of what I see on the streets is
>         terms of evangelization is pushy and leaves a bad taste in my
>         mouth.  I imagine some people may turn to the Lord as a result,
>         but there's something missing.

I know these thoughts very well. I was thinking about our way of
reaching people with the gospel, about the way we preach on the streets,
about the way we hold our crusades. I was not satisfied with all of
that. Right now we're into two weeks of such an event and we are on the
street every day (well, almost). And I am still not convinced of the way
we do it. An additional problem is: I can't lean back and blame it on
the leaders, because I'm a leader myself! :-(

[...]
>         In other words:  I want to share the Lord; I've been very quiet
>         because of my past stupidity, and because I don't want to
>         dishonour Him, but I feel that He's telling me to begin again,
>         and I really don't know where or how to start.

This is exactly where I'm at. I know that the way we do it now is not
what it should be, but since I don't have any better ideas I keep on
doing it the old-fashioned way. But I'm waiting and praying (well, I
should pray more about it!) for new and better ways.

>         Any thoughts?

Not yet...

God bless us all,
Wolfgang <><
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Jerusalem council and Paul.
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:23:00 GMT
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Tim, you did a good job in finding many useful texts that illuminate this
subject, unfortunately, you came to the wrong conclusion after citing them
all.

Paul does indeed demand that the law of love be foremost, and acts
accordingly.  The circumcision of Timothy was for this purpose.  When Paul
was in Jerusalem, love dictated that he not go out of his way to offend the
Jews.  This had nothing to do, whatever, with the letter from James to the
?Antioch church, however.  There was no love there, just an attempt to
force the gentile Christians to keep some semblence of the Jewish laws.
You aptly observed that Paul does not care about food offered to idols and
certainly does not care about blood and strangled meat.  His only
remonstrances regarding these are not to offend weaker brethern.

See James and the council hearing Paul's great testimony after Peter
speaks, then see James address Peter, ignoring Paul altogether.  Go forward
to the Acts 21 affair, James suggests that Paul engage in ritual coeansing
and in the middle of it, Paul is arrested.  Sort of looks like a setup to
me, though that is conjecture, I admit.

The best documents and scholars of the early Church freely admit there was
a serious rift between the Pauline faction and that headed by James.
Knowing that Paul was a champion of moral purity, James had no reason
whatever to send any admonitions to the Antioch church.  There can be
several reasons for his doing so, none of which are honorable.

The issue of the variance of the book of James and Paul's theology is
another subject, but it bears here for James was most probably the first
book of the NT that was written.  James goes out of his way to defeid works
and the fact that belief is not enough for salvation.  Paul directly
counters this in Roamns, and other places as well.  I do not see how any
honest reader can claim that Paul and James are in agreement.

Dan Graham
From: YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET (Yvette Traylor)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: RE: CRJ(How do one subscribe?)
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:37:40 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


 Mark
How does one subscribe to the CRJ?

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: males vs females and God
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:29:18 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Bernice,

My relation with Jesus is quite romantic, for me, romantic is not the same as
erotic.

Shalom,
Memo.
From: 11SRUST@GALLUA.BITNET (Scott A. Rust)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Christian Music
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:30:11 GMT
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>I know that this is not a deep theological question but...
>
>Does anyone enjoy Christian music.  If so, who do you listen to.
>Does anyone have more envolvement then just a record collection,
>i.e. the Christian music "biz"?
>
>-Todd


        I find that the music of Phil Keaggy is not only moving in a
Christian sense, but but in a general all around way. Keaggy has some of
the finest music made by either Christian or secular artists... He seems
to put his soul into his creations. I've seen this man in concert (solo)
3 times now and have never seen anyone who can glorify the Lord and
entertain in such an incredibly sophisticated way. My favorite album by
Keaggy is called (I think) "The Man and the Master" (correct me if I'm
wrong). It's a purely musical album with no words, but he does an
acoustic rendition of "Amazing Grace" as I've never heard! I strongly
encourage you to find some of his music and see him in person if you are
able.

        Also, this is probably common knowledge, but there is a
newsgroup (unmoderated) called rec.music.christian that is dedicated to
discussion (or argument as it seems much of the time) of Christian
music.

        Peace, friends.

        Scott Rust

        11srust@gallua.gallaudet.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 09:33:46 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Sister Act

	My roommate and I went to the $0.50 theater last night to see sister
act, and enjoyed it a lot.  (My favorite part was her prayer when she first
entered the convent.)  I wish more churches would get involved with the
community as they did.  Sigh.

Anyway, Dan (the aforementioned roommate) wants to get ahold of the music.
I think someone on christia mentioned doing some of these somgs in church,
and I was wondering if the music (Sheet music or tape) is available?  Or did
they simply have enough talented musicians simply use the movie?

Does anyone have some information?

(I'd love to here the music in church.  Though I don't know if some of the
choreography would be possible in my southern baptist church, no matter how
progressive it may be.  :-))

Thanks

Mark
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Two natures vs. one new nature.
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:38:19 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              13 Oct 1992 12:37:00 EST from <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dear St. Dan of Grahamcracker ;

Interesting ... will scan your post again.

St. Jesso of Esso (same old gas)
From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: The Urandia Book excerpt.
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:39:00 GMT
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Since this excerpt was posted at my request, I will respond.  I don't mean
others can't respond. [grin]

Christ's plan gone awry?  The Kingdom gone astray?  While I have already
agreed that, to a large degree, man made organizations have done damage to
the gospel, let me say in the loudest vo ice I can muster that the
Christian church is the body, bride and love of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Regardless of what man has done to it, it remains so.

No plan of Jesus ever went any direction save for exactly where He intended
it to go.  The Father is absolute sovereign, and everything in the life of
Jesus and the development of the church was as He designed it to be, even
the errors were in His design to teach and instruct.

Michael, I do not mean to put you down nor shut you up, but what you have
been saying and that extract you posted is diametrically opposed to the
Gospel of the Scriptures.  This leaves little leeway in discussion or
choices.  We cannot freely discuss the issues because we cannot agree on a
basis of reality.  I can discuss variances between Calvinist beliefs and
Catholic belifs because we can agree on a common reality, the Bible.  Sure,
there are problemss, but at least we can discuss them.  The Urandia book is
at complete and eternal odds with the Bible, there is no basis of reality
at which to begin in discussing the differences.

I do not wish to push you away, but you must understand that I am sold out
to Jesus, the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament and fortold in the Old.
This Jesus died a sacrificial, substitutinary death to appease the wrath of
the Father.  He fuonded His church, and gave it His authority.  True, no
believer has authority over another, but the church is no less real.

The very idea that the kingdom has not gone as Christ designed it should go
is, to me, the most heinous heresy.  Would I like it if the kingdom
included all men, sure, I would, for it would mean that there would be none
in hell, but such is not the case.

In order to accept any of the postulates you have made, or that your
extract has made, I would have to completely repudiate the Bible and the
Lord I know, and I cannot do that, not even for the sake of harmony on
this list.

Dan Graham
From: ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET (Madge McBurney)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Hate mail?
Date: 14 Oct 92 17:19:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              14 Oct 1992 08:17:17 EDT from <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

On Wed, 14 Oct 1992 08:17:17 EDT Brenda Curry-White said:
>
>It should speak to us as Christians, though, that what we say can often be
>taken out of context or misrepresented.  That doesn't mean we should keep
>controversial opinions to ourselves, only that we should be careful in our
>wording so that we don't cause some unbeliever to refuse to hear Christ's
>message.  We can express unpopular opinions in love and civility (and for
>the most part we try to).  We can reject an action without rejecting those
>who practice it.

Hi Brenda, it's great to have you back!  I've missed you.  I also want
to express my agreement with what you've written above.

I remember renting the video "The Road Warrior" (a futuristic look at
life on this planet after a terrible war or something), and it struck
me how little people in this movie were sensitive to their own feelings,
or to the feelings of others.  I'm thankful that our hearts are still
soft enough to feel the hurt that is caused sometimes from ill spoken
words or actions.  I believe that to some extent we seek after God due
to our hearts aching so much.  This is not to say that the pain we're
enduring from each other is good for us, but I believe it does help to
show how much we need direction and guidance.  I think this Political
Correct movement is attempting to change man's behavior in hopes that
someday, after being divorced from incorrect actions, the causes for
them will disappear.  This presents all of us all (Christianity) with
a grand opportunity for witnessing to a better way.  I would like to
see us build on what is at best an incomplete idea.

We don't need to offend others in order to tell them of God's love, and
this witness must continue, but if we don't seek guidance from the Holy
Spirit, we'll do more harm than good (even when our words are correct).
I'd like to see Christia members pick up the topic of how Christians can
respond to the PC movement in a way that promotes and glorifies God. I'm
interested in how I can stand up for Truth, and state to someone that the
homosexual lifestyle is a sin (and this I believe), and still preserve an
invitation to speak further on what I consider more important.  It's easy
to say the first part, but if the Kingdom of God is left out, or if we're
throw out because of the way we say something, then we will have failed.

To me, it isn't as important to have the freedom to say _anything_, but
to say what I've been given to say in the way it was intended to be heard.


Madge McBurney
From: MAINPER7@UGA.BITNET (halima t)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: help/info
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:33:10 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

i would like to find out if anyone in e-mail land knows a missionary serving in
spain who is supported by a reformed presbyterian church (pca, opc, rpc...etc.)
or if anyone out there actually attends such a church with missions to spain.
i am interested in knowing about their work, reception, the current climate
of spain with regards to reformed doctrine, and all other aspects of their
experience. you can just post me directly. many thanks!
From: LJONES@BINGVMB.BITNET (Lary Jones)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Re: Canadian postal codes & SPSS/PC+
Date: 14 Oct 92 13:56:41 GMT
Reply-To: Lary Jones <LJONES@BINGVMB.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

On Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:48:10 EDT Bob Burge said:

>Got a typically Canadian problem: I have to enter some data (using DE) and
>one of the fields is the applicant's postal code (for example, K7L3N6).  In
>the end I will have to be able to manipulate parts of the code to get a
>geographic area. This will most likely mean looking at the first or first
>three characters of the postal code. Any suggestions on how to accomplish
>this efficiently? Should I break the code into two parts at the DE stage?

1. How the codes are entered at the DE stage should be determined by
   whatever minimizes errors.  If the person(s) doing the entry are
   copying complete postal codes from a form, the code should be entered
   the way it appears on the form.  If it is K7L3N6, enter it as a six
   character field; if it is K7L 3N6, perhaps enter it as two three-
   character fields.

2. Are you using SPSS PC+ or the full (mainframe, unix, Mac) version?
   I use SPSS on an IBM MVS system and on a Macintosh.  On these systems
   there are a wealth of character functions, e.g.:

   First = SUBSTR(PostCode,1,1)

   You can create the substring variables as temporary (#First) or
   permanent versions.  You can keep the complete postal code in
   its DE form, or DROP that version in favor of the parts that you
   need for geographic referencing.

3. How to resolve postal codes into regions depends on the number of
   target regions involved. If the number of categories is small
   (e.g., provinces or some other subdivison which could be
   represented by a single letter) then assignment through a DO IF ...
   ELSE IF sequence is appropriate. If the number of categories is
   larger then using a TABLE in MATCH FILES may be the way to go.

Good luck!
__________________________________________________________________
Lary Jones...Computing Services...Binghamton Univ...(607) 777-2879
School of Management Research Support ...... LJones@BingVMB.Bitnet
Organization: Connecticut's Business School
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:30:03 EST
Reply-To:     Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
From:         Murph Sewall <SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: registering with spssx-l
Comments: To: bs_s467@NEPTUNE.KINGSTON.AC.UK
              16 Oct 1992 12:33:03 GMT from <bs_s467@NEPTUNE.KIN GSTON.AC.UK>

On Fri, 16 Oct 1992 12:33:03 GMT you said:
>Where do I send my register message to (i.e. what is the address of the
>listserver that manages the spssx-l list)?

ANY LISTSERV can subscribe you to ANY global list.  Email to
LISTSERV@UKACRL
(subject ignored)
SUB SPSSX-L your name here

/s Murph Sewall <Sewall@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>