From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Fear of Success (was Re: Oregon poll)
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:49:17 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Oct13.010428.11500@u.washington.edu>, bbeer@milton.u.washington.edu (Bob Beer) writes:
# ## Seriously, the OCA scares the daylights out of me, too.  Remember, I
# ## not only live in the same state but the same city as Hardwick (as in
# ## vs. Bowers :-( ).  We've had our fair share of gay bashings, murders, and
# ## other assorted hate crimes, and the thought of them being "officially
# ## sanctioned" makes me want to run for the hills.
# ## 
# ## #Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com       Hewlett-Packard Co.
# ##  Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
# #
# #How does Measure 9, by prohibiting the state from promoting 
# #homosexuality, sanction violent attacks on homosexuals?
# #
# #There are real savages out there to watch for (and it's not just
# #homosexuals that have to worry about neo-Nazi skinheads), but it's
# #not at all clear that Measure 9 has anything to do with that problem,
# #and there's certainly no alliance between the skinheads and OCA.
# 
# There might be no official collaboration between the OCA and the skinheads
# or Nazis, but you can sure bet that a lot of the skinheads and Nazis are
# all for the goals of the OCA.  People already weakened by one attack are
# an easier target for an attack from another side.  Even though I don't
# believe that President Bush really believes that gays should be evicted 
# from their homes and fired from their jobs with no legal recourse, don't

I don't believe that Bush believes that either, unfortunately.

# groups like the OCA (and skinheads and neo-Nazis for that matter) get en-
# couragement from his statements against gays and lesbians and his tacit
# support of them through his sucking up to the religious right?  

Skinheads and neo-Nazis also claim to be hostile to violent criminals
(in spite of their actions).  Are we to conclude that anyone who
expresses hostility to violent crime is supporting skinheads?

# The facts are that anti-gay violence is up in Oregon.  Two people burned
# to death because of a firebombing.  There will be a memorial for those
# people and other peaceful protests this Friday, Oct. 16.  Groups are
# leaving from Seattle and I imagine other cities within driving distance.  
# Be there if you can.  

Except that the recent postings in soc.motss on the subject indicate
the authorities now think it was revenge by a gang unrelated to the
sexual orientation of the victims.

# Many folks also have gotten the idea that it is now okay to be openly anti-
# gay (maybe a blessing since they can at least be called on it that way) in
# Oregon, encouraged by the OCA.  A friend of my housemate was buying a ticket
# to a movie in a smaller town in Oregon, and he was wearing a "No on 9" 
# button.  The guy behind the window gave him his tickets and said "Here's your
# tickets, faggot."  Our friend picked up a bench and threw it through the 
# window at him.  The police were there and there was quite a scene.  While it
# isn't the way I might choose, the message was clear, that he was not going to
# stand there and take such crap.

The message is clear: You have accepted the idea that offensive
free speech is appropriately responded to with violence.  Does this 
mean that a homosexual (definitely expressing an idea that is 
offensive to some) can be beat up by gay-bashers?  You've
certainly accepted the validity of the idea that an offensive idea
or insult should be responded to with violence.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.
Newsgroups: soc.motss