HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zwicky@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Subject: Re: correction to end-of-year reading
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: colorless names
Keywords: squirrels, johnson, martha stewart
Organization: lsa, stanford, outil, osu,...
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:26:13 GMT

hon, "richard johnson" is a hopelessly colorless name.  (richard
johnson himself, however, is not at all colorless.)  i have trouble
remembering what The Squirrel's `real name' is.  [i note here, on
a list of people to get together with, "The Squirrel", right after
"Rhonda and Paula".  if i'd put down "Richard Johnson" - or worse,
just "Richard" - i'd have lost half an hour trying to recall just
who this fellow was i seemed to care so much about seeing.  (by the
way, my dear squirrel, i have already been to the mandarin gourmet,
and am going there again tonight, but i have scrupulously avoided
ordering Our Dish.  the salt-and-pepper scallops are waiting for
you.  [suzanne, you're on the list too, but i thought you'd voted
for the double rainbow.  there's the verona, as well - half again
as big (sometimes enlargement works), and airier.])]

ah yes, the appalling martha stewart.  i have somewhat mixed feelings
about the works of martha grimes, but on the martha stewart issue
i am entirely clear.  this person's burblings are to be avoided.

arnold (who, thanks to stan brown, has just read three sarah caulwell
  mysteries and just *loved* them)

[sort-of motss relevance: the narrator (and detective) in caulwell's
 books is professor hilary tamar, an oxford don whose sex is never
 revealed in any way]
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:09:55 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison

In article <1htee7INN92n@hp-col.col.hp.com>
smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

>[stuff]

Walter, would you mind giving us a break now?  You're going on
more and more about less and less.  I was not tuned in for the
original dispute, but whatever it was, it's been some growing
number of turns since you addressed any essential material.  If
you have further substantive argument, please return to that
now.  Otherwise, I think you'd be doing many people a favor
just to let it stand as-is.

<> A constitution is not intended to embody a particular
<> economic theory.... It is made for people of fundamentally
<> differing views, and the accident of our finding certain
<> opinions natural and familiar or novel and even shocking
<> ought not to conclude our judgement upon the question of
<> whether statutes embodying them conflict with the Constitution
<> of the United States. -- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:49:16 GMT

In article <BznADy.FGy@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Wow .... How did you folks post way back then?  Flipping front panel
>switches? :-)

Actually, at the time that I discovered net.motss I was
working with and writing JCL on one of the other systems
I was programming on at the time, and flipping panel
switches on another.  Don't laugh, sonny - in a few years
some upstart kids will be making fun of you, too.

I discovered net.motss by reading all the newsgroups, and
there it was (to my considerable delight).
--
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
From: pauli@sgi.com (Paul Isaacs)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ageism
Date: 23 Dec 1992 18:22:59 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.asd.sgi.com

In article <72260@cup.portal.com> elc@cup.portal.com (Edward L Cole) writes:
>
> [ highlights from the article follow...]

>> The fascism of gay male aesthetic. <
>
>Many gay men have bought into the notion that youth is the sexual pinacle. 
>Young men have been idolized for at least decades in american gay male culture.
>
>The abundance of erotica and pornography that involves young men
>is staggering really. 
>
>What is all about? Perhaps its the lingering on of the days 
>when most gay men where doomed to an old age of loneliness;
>an attempt to stave off age with youthfull bodies. Perhaps
>its the natural expression of human yearning for prodigy. Or
>the byproduct of male libido that has nothing to do with gender
>but seeks to dominate and the young are easy to subdue.


I don't believe that obsession with youth is a recent phenomenon.
If you want to talk about how long things have been this way, then I think
that the millenium would be a better unit of measurement than the decade.

And it's not just a gay thing either, although it's possibly more a male
thing than a female thing.


pauli.
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Hispanic Journalists to Meet in Colorado
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:21:24 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams) wrote:
>Patricia E. Duarte, a member of the board of the Hispanic
>journalists' association, said she resents what she said are
>"pressure-group tactics" being used against the organization.
>She said the convention does not have to be moved to show
>that Hispanics are sympathetic to homosexuals.  "We should
>not be pressured into taking a political stance," Ms. Duarte
>said.  "I don't think I have ever recalled gays taking a
>stand on Hispanic issues."

And why should we?  Hispanic issues are not gay issues.  When we march in
Washington, it's only for gay issues, nothing else!  How dare they ask
for minority solidarity in this day and age!

[insert smilie here]

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
"We Will Rebuild (tm)" - majority community response to Andrew
"We Will Redecorate" - gay community response to Andrew
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 4 Jan 93 00:13:28 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <1i7c1jINNdlv@pith.uoregon.edu> dise@decoy.uoregon.edu writes:
>My husband was fired July 31, 1992 by Tektronix in a rather flagrant violation  
>of their own EE policy.  

Obviously the best thing is to get them to admit to something and tape
it, and THEN request the reason for termination in writing by sending
a request in writing.  If the two reasons are different (they would be
fools to say sexual orientation was the reason in writing), then
confron the HR people. You should also get a copy of his complete
personnel file which includes all of his merit reviews... especially
the last one. 

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:19:38 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
> >That is what I am saying.  I am NOT saying that gays DO want quotas, or 
> >that quotas existed in the past; 
> 
> NOT!  You've said it repeatedly,

OK, Mike.  Show me where I have.  Put up, or quit blubbering. 

> BBC put it best:  all the Equal Opportunity policies in world are useless
> if the _law_ doesn't allow you to use them.  And that's what Amendment 2
> does.

You really think HP would fire you in violation of their own EE statement? 

Walter

Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: US Violates Refugee Rights
Organization: Amnesty International Members for Lesbian & Gay Concerns 
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 18:47:23 GMT

The following is an action called for by Amnesty International USA's 
Government Action Network and is posted here by Amnesty International 
Members for Lesbian and Gay Concerns (AIMLGC).  

For more information about this action, write: Amnesty International USA's 
Government Action Network, 304 Pennsylvania Avenue SE, Washington, DC 
20003.  For information about AIMLGC, send email to: aimlgc, PeaceNet, (or 
aimlgc@igc.org, on other networks).  Postal mail can be sent to: AIMLGC, P.O. 
Box 8293, Santa Cruz, CA 95061-8293.
 
**********************************************

U.S. Violates Rights of HIV-Positive Refugees

November 12, 1992 -- The United States Government is currently holding 
240 Haitian asylum seekers plus 38 other family members in quarantine at 
the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba.  These refugees have tested 
positive for the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).  Each one has also 
been judged twice to have a significant claim for the protection of the United 
States due to fear of persecution by security forces or their allies in Haiti.  

These 240 men and women and their dependents are not being allowed to 
pursue their claims of asylum because current U.S. policy calls for refuges 
with HIV to be excluded from the country.  Although Dr. Louis Sullivan, 
Secretary of Health and Human Services, called in January 1991 for this 
policy to be changed, the Bush administration has not taken any action to do 
so.  

U.S. policy allows for a waiver to be granted in the U.S. embassy of a 
refugee's home country.  The waiver, however, is not practical nor safe for 
refugees who have fled their country, apparently m,any with a well-founded 
fear of persecution.  In addition, most of these Haitians were likely unaware 
of their HIV status until they reached Guantanamo.

Amnesty International believes that this U.S. action violates the basic human 
rights of people to seek and enjoy in other countries asylum from 
persecution (Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

Please write to William Bar, the Attorney General of the United States, and 
please send a copy of your letter to June Osborn, the chair of President 
Bush's National Commission on AIDS.  Urge Mr. Barr to allow HIV-positive 
Haitians in Guantanamo to enter the United States and pursue their claims 
for political asylum.  It would be especially appropriate for the Bush 
administration to grant this before President Bush's term in office expires in 
January.

WRITE:

The Honorable William Barr
Attorney general of the U.S.
Department of Justice 
10th and Constitution NW
Room 4400
Washington, DC  20530

Fax: 202-514-4371

CC: 

June Osborn
Chair
National Commission on AIDS
1720 K Street NW
Room 815
Washington, DC 20006

Fax: 202-254-3060

Redirect the Power of Government for Human Rights!


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: MORE TV HELL Re: *** SPOILERS *** from rec.arts.startrek.info
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 01:26:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.200046.17080@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com
(Joseph Francis) writes:

>[...] and in excitement, the 3000 GROWN MEN AND ONE BEAR
>start into it, and then the FUR REALLY STARTS FLYING.
>(I can't keep it up).

Better enjoy now, then; it gets worse.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:02:08 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <18227@autodesk.COM>, mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook) wrote:

> It'll more probably be the "Snigger" experience. Dworkin is an undercover
> agent for the Male Chauvinist Pig Party; they have no greater weapon in
> their arsenal. You've come a long way, baby.

AAAAACCCCCKKKKKKKKK!

This is a lie, ladies and gentle-man/feminists.  The Male
Chauvinist Pig Party denies, categorically, any and all association
with the Dwork.

*X*
(as do the marketeers of Virginia Slim, I'm sure...)
From: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: My 5-year HS Reunion... the results!
Date: 29 Dec 1992 21:22:55 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: the-temple.east.sun.com

In article 1hon97INNc79@sdl.Warren.MENTORG.COM, tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Limoncelli) writes:

[good stuff about reunion]

> All totalled, it was a very positive and energizing experience!
> 
> Two snaps up!
> 
> Tom

I went to my 10 year high school reunion this fall.  Mark couldn't (or was that
wouldn't) go.  I had a surprisingly great time.  I was not out even to myself
in High School so coming out was a definite part of the experience.  I wore
a pink triangle pin on my jacket lapel.  The most amusing time was when the wife
of a HS friend asked what the pink triangle was about.  Her husband reminded
her of their recent trip to SF during the pride parade.  We all chuckled, it was
fine.  Several friends expressed that it was courageous for me to tell everyone.
I even told the people who used to chase me home after school (for damage, not
for pleasure!) in sixth grade and they were OK with it.  If anyone had a problem,
it was well concealed.  (For the record, this was in central NJ)  Mark and
I both went to my 5 year college and his 15(?) year college, also no problems.
His 20 year high school (I still can't deal in numbers THAT big) is next year
and we plan to go.  Reunions can be more fun than one would have ever imagined.

Howard

---
========================================================================
Howard I. Solomon			|
Software Support Engineer, SunExpress	|
his@east.sun.com			|
=========================================================================
From: smezias@rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU (Stephen J. Mezias)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:34:14 GMT
Organization: NYU Stern School of Business

In article <1992Dec22.181247.24370@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve
Dyer) writes: 

>>Given how these messages seem to bother you, maybe you should avoid
>>reading them.
>Harrumph, maybe they're hard to avoid.

Hit the n key, I believe.  But I agree that they are ostentatious.

>The issue is one of exclusion and alienation as perceived by the marginalized,
>and the burden of such social traditions which are enjoyed by the majority
>so thoughtlessly.  (Which isn't a claim that the majority has any moral
>responsibility to stop doing what it's doing, by the way.)  I think your
>analysis of the social roles of such congratulations is spot-on, but you're
>ignoring the ur-text of JI's comments, and the comments of similarly margin-
>alized individuals.  Think of it as a similarly ritualized letting-off-of-
>steam. :-)

I do not wish to minimize the marginalization of glb persons, but I
find it hard to take seriously the claim that these birth
announcements are a particularly pernicious source of that
marginalization.

>I may be sorry to bring this up (I'm amazed that we've managed to avoid it),
>but it's rather analogous to a Jew expressing exasperation at Christmas.
>Now, it is possible to confront such a complaint in a rather Vulcan, hyper-
>logical manner and thereby dismiss it, or point out that many Jews have come
>to terms with this phenomenon in other ways which don't involve posting to
>the net, but that doesn't make the exasperated any less exasperated.

Agreed.  I only responded because the poster specifically asked how
others felt about it.  

>I think -- to extend your analysis -- that the issues with same-sex
>or single parents revolve around the fact that such an announcement
>does _not_ yet elicit a mindless, reflexive social response, because
>the news is still so unusual.

Exactly.  Unfortunately, it also involves the threat of denial of
parenting rights to glb persons who dare to announce their sexuality
while simultaneously parenting a child.

>You certainly don't think the circumstances are symmetric, do you?

I would imagine that some emotional experiences the lives of glb
persons are less intense, some equally intense, and others more
intense.  For the sake of argument, my comment was specifically
directed to those of about equal intensity.  As far as writing:

>Thank you, massa, suh. :-)

He did ask the question.  

>Well, I don't disagree with you, but I'm not going to tell other gay people
>how they should react to such traditions.

I did use the terminology `I think' here.  I do believe that all of us
who want to enhance the rights of the many traditionally
disenfranchised groups in our society need to conserve our energy.
There's a long way to go, but I don't mean to say that in such a way
that I sound like I've just invented the wheel.

SJM
From: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bishop Lays an Egg
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:07:03 GMT
Reply-To: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Dec29.215501.20669@PacBell.COM> 
rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams) writes:
I haven't heard anything useful about this incident...

>Is it too much to hope that Daily and his egregious boss,
>Cardinal O'Connor, would ever deign to speak with and learn
>from their Episcopalian brother across the Hudson, John
>Spong, Bishop of Newark, who could startle them with some
>new-fangled, 20th Century notions about human sexuality...

Definitely too much to hope for... Daily and O'Connor would *never*
speak to *any*one who was even remotely associated with people who
would actually bless animals on St. Francis's Day, or support 
environmentalists, or put the community ahead of finishing their 
cathedral... St. John the Unfinished *is* Episcopalian, you know, and
I can't imagine Daily or O'Connor tainting themselves by even considering
an idea associated with it...

-jenneke

   Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully  -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
		jenneke is: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:25:03 GMT
Organization: insert anything here

smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
>> 	OK, Walter, no flak: please share with us the letter
>> you sent to the HR division at HP encouraging them to start
>> allowing gay and lesbians spouses have all the same privs as
>> heterosexual sposuses...  Maybe some of us can use it in letters
>> we're writing for your own companies...

>Did I say I wrote any letter to HR?  

	Well no sane person would come on here telling us what
we should or should not do without having done *some* legwork on
their own.  No one who wasn't a hypocrite would come on here
and bray about how things ought to be without actually practicing
what he preached...

>Did I say I had the answers 
>on how to get it accomplished?  

	You certainly have a lot of *opinions*, Walter, it's too
bad you don't have the backbone to back them up with.

>Nope.  I don't understand why you 
>have to take such a rediculous attitude like that, Bob.  *If* I 
>could offer them a proven way to do it, that has worked in 
>other places, that the company could take seriously, I'd do it. 

	Fine, then let's write that letter shall we?

>But I don't have that. But your thought of having people share 
>the ideas they do have to help each other is good.  

	What good is sharing ideas amopng the converted?  What
IS needed is for some people who have the privs and the perks (that's
you Walter) to have the cojones to actually stick his neck out
and publically speak his mind -NOT to the people who already know
it (that's us Walter), but to the people who need to hear it most
(that would be the HR dept. at HP for example)...  If you're not
going to *do* anything but wheeze *at* us, then go away.  We
need allies.  That's not someone who is all talk and no action.

>Walter 

	Yes, we know --- you're almost a prototype.
From: banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz
Subject: Re: men crossing the street at night to avoid frightening women
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: My Arc.
Date: 2 Jan 93 05:33:25 GMT
            <9212292355.AA02165@york.cs.ucla.edu>

gds@ficus.cs.ucla.EDU (Greg Skinner) writes:

> For argument's sake, let's say all non-threatening men decided to
> maintain a respectable distance from women late at night, but it is
> not possible to distinguish a non-threatening man from a man who
> intends to do harm to women.  Would you say that women still have
> something to fear, even though they would no longer be frightened by
> non-threatening men? Would you say that steps ought to be taken to
> empower women to defend themsleves against these men?  In other words,
> does avoiding frightening women really help them protect themselves?
> If women are given (and take) the means to protect themselves, what
> purpose does the non-threatening men keeping a respectable distance
> serve?

   It serves the purpose of avoiding you getting hurt for being mis-interpreted
in your actions. It helps keep the woman who can defend herself more relaxed as
they don't have to be prepared to use whatever methods of defence quite so
immediately as when you are close, not to mention it keeps the woman who hasn't
(and really shouldn't need to) learnt to defend herself relaxed too. And finally it prevents you from having a crowded personal space, something I personally don't like much and I suspect
alot of other people don't too...

    Philip

--
Philip R. Banks  Syntax: mail < banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz >            @@@@@/|
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The Trojan Signature Virus :-                                           @@@/##|
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