From: anicolao@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Alex Nicolaou)
Subject: Re: Network Use
Keywords: NSFNET, network, traceroute
Organization: Computer Graphics Laboratory, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:24:18 GMT

sterling@netcom.com writes:

>In article <1992Apr14.144504.14783@watcgl.waterloo.edu> anicolao@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Alex Nicolaou) writes:
>>** I guess it depends on your definitions. Sending out 3*15 = 45 packets
>>to do what effectively amounts to /etc/ping is a lot of packets in my 
>>opinions. It does not provide the normal user with any useful information;
>>ping does just as well. So why would someone who wasn't tracing net problems
>>want to use it?

>In a free and open environment, one should not restrict someone elses ability
>to do something that's harmless just because they can't figure out why the
>person would want to.  It doesn't matter why; it's not your business, really,
>and the reasons could be far beyond those you can understand or simply
>impossible to verbalize in advance.

 ** I'm not interested in restricting people's ability to do things; that is
not, and was never, my point. I'm not in any position to criticize other's
use of the net, on their sites.

>Now, I suppose, if you're a sysadmin and don't like the idea of letting the
>users send out the 'extra' packets for no aparrent reason, consider that the
>user might find it educational.  

 ** The day one of the hackers in my lab is interested, they'll get access
to traceroute. However, telling the network users, in rec.games.mud of all
places, that traceroute doesn't use any resources is silly. It _does_! And
many of the people who read this newsgroup share absolutely none of the 
curiousity of which you speak - they are interested in whether the mud is
up or down, and that is all. Look at the recent rash of postings - "Oh, god,
is bigboy (Adversary) down, and gone forever? Is my precious character lost?"
Give me a break. If these people had the gall to consider themselves hackers,
I'd be sorely disappointed in the population that thinks they are hackers
these days. "Hacker" is a gift word, but that's another argument.

>With taceroute a user can usually determine why he can't get to XXX or why his
>link to YYY is so slow.  If it's a local problem, then he can contact whomever
>about it.  This is better than the user contacting person ZZZ about every net.
>problem he has, including those that a foreign-site problem the local admin can
>do nothing about.  So in this way, traceroute might even make and admins job
>easier to do, avoiding having to sift through tons of email about stuff he ha
>no contraol over.  Assuming, of course, that traaceroute is installed so joe
>average user can use it, and time has been taken to explain to joe average user
>some basic principles about the net and networking.

 ** Joe average user is not, however, educated as you assume. I've no problem
with people trying to help out, but odds are if a gateway is down the people
at that site know about it. If a node on our network was slow and you sent 
out mail about how it interfered with your network gaming, I'm sure you'd be
reminded that network games barely hold on to their place in the net, and 
manage it only because nobody can show that they are harmful (Indeed, they
aren't in my opinion!). Given that the average user is not that educated,
I think ping is more than sufficient for his needs; if someone discovers 
traceroute on his system, let's hope he uses it responsibly. Let's not 
encourage everyone to use it though - it is _not_ a tool for everyone. It
can be there for anyone who looks it up though.

alex

PS: Before I get some stupid reply about the use of mail pronouns I feel I 
should point out that I consider "he" and other male pronouns to include
females, who I consider equally qualified if on average not as interested
in computing. Flames >/dev/null