From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Better to be slaughtered than never to have lived? Re: Meat eaters (LONG)
Keywords: Meat Vegans vegetarian food
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 09:04:24 GMT

	NOTE: I removed soc.canada from the newsgroups lines.  If you read
this in any group other than talk.politics.animals, my apologies.

g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) regurgitates debunked myths:

>Never to have been fed poultry manure ("[W]ays to utilize poultry manure
>[Dr Ed Naber] listed as ... as ruminant feed, primarily using as broiler feed,
>a process that is fairly common in the southern states ... composting ... for
>use as a feed ingredient for ruminants."  "Manure Utilization", _Canada_
>_Poultryman_, August 1992).

	Never to have spread shit on the fields of soybeans that Rosemary
is probably now munching on for pennies per pound.

>"[On feedlots] the animals are fed a diet designed for one purpose only--to
>fatten them up as cheaply as possible.

	Remember this -- it's important.

>  This may include such delicacies as
>sawdust laced with ammonia and feathers, shredded newspaper (complete with all
>the colors of toxic ink from the Sunday comics and advertising circulars),
>'plastic hay,' processed sewage, inedible tallow and grease, poultry litter,
>cement dust, and cardboard scraps,

	Does everybody else note that none of these items will fatten up
an animal, let alone cheaply?  So much for the bullshit.  Where might it
come from?  Sawdust makes a good bedding material, and urine and feathers
are commonly found in it quite quickly.  The same goes for newspaper,
plastic hay, and cardboard.  Processed sewage I'm unsure about, but the tallow,
grease, and cement dust are generally found in machinery, and it is not
unlikely that insignificant portions find their way into the feed.  If only
you knew what you were safely eating and drinking yourself!  I don't know
how many rats got munged by the blower fans on the grain bins, and there are
certainly going to be rat parts contaminating that tofu; yet we are led to
think the proportions are large.  Profitability does not come from feeding
the stuff mentioned, and we can't have it both ways.

> not to mention the insecticides, antibiotics
>and hormones.  Artifical flavors and aromas are added to trick the poor 
>animals into eating the stuff." (_Diet_for_a_new_America_ by John Robbins).

	Why feed an insecticide?  Antibiotics I can see, and hormones may
have their place too, but artifical flavor to trick the animals?  Could
you be talking of vegan dog food here, or does John Robbins have no clue
how animals are raised profitably?

>"poultry, pigs or calves never see the light of day until they are taken to 
>the slaughterhouse... 

	Nice claim.  Wrong, but nice.  Thank you for playing.  Not only is
this incredibly uncommon, it's unhealthy and unprofitable.

>For three months at a stretch, pregnant sows are confined
>to stalls scarcely larger than their bodies.  To reduce stress and activity, 
>totally confined animals are kept in darkness except at feeding time...

	Again, complete, unmitigated bullshit.  BTW: piglets are weaned after
three weeks, let alone three months.  By three months they are no longer
piglets but 110lb pigs ready for market.

>"The new ways are solidly established.  About 95 per cent of egg laying hens,
>virtually all ... turkeys and half or more of beef cattle, dairy cows and pigs
>are maintained in some type of factory system."  (James B. Mason, "Industrial
>Pigs, Mechanical Chickens:  How Corporate Animal Factories Breed Poisoned Meat
>and New Pollution", _Vegetarian_Times_, March 1980, cited in Victoria Moran,
>_Compassion:_The_Ultimate_Ethic_).

	I suppose raising any animal for the purpose of selling at market
or eventual slaughter is considered a "factory system?"  That is the only
way this could be even remotely correct.

>Never to have served on a rape rack, never to have been artifically
>inseminated...

	Sorry, Rosemany, I can't help you there.

>>never sucked milk from it's mothers teat, 

>'Separating the calf from the mother
>shortly after birth undoubtedly inflicts anguish on both.  Cattle are highly
>intelligent, and attachment between the calf and the mother is particularly
>strong.' 

	Just like that of a duck.  I had a calf think *I* was its mother,
and I've had cows drop calves and go about their business, never even
recognizing the calf existed, let alone was hers.  Again, the broad
generalizations made are certainly not held up by fact.

>"[T]oday's cattle are routinely de-horned because today's cattle feedlots,
>where the great majority of today's cattle spend the last half of their 
>lives, are unbelievably overcrowded.  And they are not likely to become 
>less crowded in the foreseeable future.  ... Studies at the University 
>of Minnesota suggest maximum profits can be obtained by allowing each 
>of these large animals fourteen square feet of living space.

	Cattle are routinely de-horned because farmers don't enjoy getting
gored, since it tends to be fairly fatal.  In addition, the cattle have no
need for these weapons of theirs since a caretaker ensures their safety
from other animals.  Strange how cattle should keep their horns, which are
simply weapons, yet ordinary citizens both here and in Canada are denied
the ownership of firearms because they have no legitimate need, but it
doesn't seem ordinary citizens need protecting under the law.

>Never to have been castrated:
>"I hate castrating them.  It's really horrible.  After you put the ring on its
>scrotum the calf will lie down and kick and wring its tail for half and hour or
>more, before the scrotum finally goes numb.  It's obviously in agony.  Then it
>takes about a month before its balls fall off.  You can do it faster with a
>special kind of pliers, but I can't bear to use those because I can't take how
>they carry on." - cattleman Herb Silverman, quoted in _Diet_for_a_new_America_
>by John Robbins.

	Herb Silverman probably hasn't castrated a bull in his life.  I've
used the pliers, and found little by way of kicking and carrying on.  I
prefer the X-acto knife and the sulfa powder, though.  Four cuts are all
that is required.  Total time?  10 seconds tops.  That the steer leaves
not only on his own power but is also frolicking in the lot a few hours
later is far better than what a typical hernia surgery recipient can
expect for pain and recovery time.  With pigs, they give a squeal when
you pick them up, not even a grunt when you cut and remove them, and
when you set them down they fight the other pigs for the chance to eat
the testicles.  Pain and agony?  More like a new taste treat experience.

>I submit to you that the conditions you describe are not typical of the
>average cow's life.

	And I submit you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals