From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: More Crone Images (was re: stereotypes)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 30 Jul 92 00:13:25 GMT

In article <y9sooB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>> >Janis Maria Cortese says 
>> 
>> >>"The Crone usually symbolized death; look up Kali."
>> 
>> 
>> Hmm, to me Kali is the Dark Goddess, not the Crone.  I have the usual Triple
>> Goddess:  Maiden (waxing moon), Mother (full moon), and Crone (waning moon); 
>> however, I also have the Dark Goddess, who is the Dark Moon.  She is the 
>> Morrigan, Kali, Morgana (my usual name for her, since I tend toward Cymraeg).
>> She is the one who helps us through struggles, who helps us go into the dark.
>> 
>> Your mileage is very likely to vary. :-)
>> 
>yup, i don't know how i missed that.  kali is NOT a crone.  she is 
>usually shown as being either grotesquely ugly or young and beautiful.  
>but grotesquely ugly does not equal croneliness.  kali is not a celtic, 
>or really even an indo-european goddess.  she isn't part of the 
>maiden-mother-crone trilogy...

Funny, after seeing the Kali image as I did, I assumed she was the third
part of the trilogy: I have seen her in more than one instance (I am
having one hell of a time typing now, since I have ch 34 on TV, and I'm
trying to type in English and listen to someone talk in Spanish -- talk
about cognitive dissonance!  I'm about the blow a fuse) squatting over a
man eating his entrails and copulating with him as well.  I interpreted
this as a rather gory metaphor for rebirth -- consuming the man at the
same time as fructifying herself on him so that he will be created anew
inside of her, when she functions as the Maiden/Mother part of things.

As an anthro type, hough, you are certainly more knowledgeable than I
about this.  

>has anyone but me ever thought that the whole crone = death thing is 
>wrong?  i'm an anthropology major, and one thing that is considered to 
>have the force almost of l;aw am9ong different peoples is the 
>cross-generational bond, i.e. a strong affectionate bond between the 
>grandparental generation and the grandchild generation.  also, i think 
>that older women are more likely to be the experienced midwives.  it 

This makes sense.  I just thought that death and birth (or rather
REbirth) we connected so that it made sense that the crones acted as
midwives. 

>i think of the archetype of the crone as wise, loving, nurturing, etc.  
>just because old peopel are nearer to dying doesn't mean that they should 
>be associated with death!  

Well, they always say that young people think of themselves as immortal,
while old people know better.  They would certainly be wiser when it
comes to counseling people about the approach of death, if not death
itself.

>think about it - old people die eventually 
>just by waiting, while young people, especially virgins in the pagan 
>sense, go out and actively SEEK death oftentimes, believing that they are 
>immortal.  

Agreed.

>look at the hum,ainzed depiction of death in the sandman comic 
>book, for exmple - a young beautiful woman.  la belle dame sans merci.  
>kali, if one must place her somewhere.  death is a virgin.

I think this might be connected somehow to the prevailing belief that
women are dangerous for men, which is connected to the dominant
christian belief, certainly.  This can also be associated with the crap
that flew in the thread near and dear to your hearts which shall remain
nameless -- why are men afraid of us? 

>"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
>                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney

THIS is fantastic.

Blessings,
Janis

Janis Cortese           ||  Pienso con sueno parecido no volvera mas,  
U. C. Irvine            ||  Y me pintaba las manos y la cara azul.  
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu ||  Y de promiso el viento rapido me llevo,  
========================||  Y me echa volar en el cielo infinito! 

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