HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao)
Subject: Who are your opponents (was Re: Pasadena KO Trump Suit)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:02:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.214809.18703@ramon.bgu.ac.il>, avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira) writes:
|> jschuler@dcs.simpact.com writes:
|> :
|> : Your in 4 Spades and
|> : your trump suit is:
|> :
|> : 	K	Declarer has 2 hearts, dummy 3+. The defense
|> : 	J	start with a diamond to Easts Ace, the King of Hearts,
|> : 	7	a Heart to Wests Ace, Heart ruffed by East with the
|> : 	6	Eight and overruffed with your Ace. A trump to dummy
|> : 		draws the Nine from West and you play the ???????
|> : 	A
|> : 	5
|> : 	4
|> : 	3
|> : 	2
|> :
|> :
|> : This problem was given to me by Jon Wright.
|> 
|> I like this problem!  Declarer can make the contract only if East
|> started with Q8 or T8.  With T8 East would have ruffed with the T to
|> force out the Ace, in case declarer has the 9.
|> 
|> You should therefore play the K!
|> 
|> Avi

No one has p[ointed out what I see as the most crucial problem on this hand.  WHY DID WEST PLAY THE SPADE 9 on the lead?

Now 99% of the time, I agree with Avi.  You just assume West made a thoughtless play from ST9 and go up with the SKing.  But what if BOTH EW are experts.

Now, I think the finesse is correct.  Follow the reasoning through and see if you agree.  

With T9 an expert East would be much more inclined to play the T rather than the 9.  With Q8 West would of course ruff with the S8 but this is inconsistent with an expert Easts play of the S9.

What would an expert West do with T8?  He would reason as follows.  If S is missing the SA his play is immaterial.  If S has SAQ again his play is immaterial.  The only situation is when S has the SA and no SQ.  Now if W ruffs with the T this forces the Ace, and South will almost definitely finesse the SJ as this win with Qx and Qxx of spades with East.  Therefore, the T is not likely to help much.  Now consider what happens if E ruffs with the S8.  If S has the S9 its all over for the good guys, but then 




as we saw the T was not going to win by much anyway, so the loss is not very great.

But what if S does not have the 9, it will draw the Ace, and now South will definitely go down when he reasons as above and tries to drop the SQ with East.  

So in summary, if I was playing against an average to good pair I think the SK is right.  But if your opponents were Mackwell or Stansby/Martel then I think the SJ will be the correct.

Opinions?

Bharat
-- 
R. Bharat Rao                         E-mail: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu
AI Group, Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
405 N. Mathews, Urbana, IL 61801   (217)-333-5978 (O), 337-6498(H)
Electrical & Computer Engineering, University of Illinois, Urbana
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Steven G. Myerson)
Subject: Re: alerted double; opening lead
Keywords: double, lead
Organization: Raytheon Submarine Signal Division
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:34:16 GMT

In article <21DEC199211131587@mary.fordham.edu> Leonard J. Nissim writes:

* At a 13-table duplicate game in a local club on board 10 (both
* vulnerable, East dealer) I held as South:  
*            S-xx H-Axx D-KJTx C-AKJ9
* East opened 2H, weak.  I bid 2N, which for my partnership shows 15-18hcp
* and a definite heart stopper.  (Qxx would not qualify, QJx would.) West
* passed, and my partner bid 3N.  East doubled, alerted.  I asked for an 
* explanation, and got:  "*Demands* a heart lead."  
* 
* I passed, partly on the assurance of a heart lead.  All passed.  The ace of
* spades hit the table as the opening lead (asks for honor to be dropped under 
* it or for count, according to  their card).  "Director!" by me produced West's

Exactly why did you call the director? Was there an infraction?

* assurance that he had no hearts, and so couldn't lead one.  Not much to the 

Even if West *did* have a heart, there is certainly no rule
that says he has to lead it.
The double was a request by east for west to lead a heart.
West may lead anything he wants.

The day that my partner can order me to play a certain card when
defending is the day I take up a new hobby.

* play; West ran his 7-card spade suit for down 3, doubled:
* 
*      [hands deleted]
* 
* -800 was of course a bottom.  With no outside entry, East's double seems
* really strange.  I have two questions:
* 
* 1) If West had had a heart and still led the ace of spades, what would the
* director have ruled?

The director wouldn't have ruled anything.  There was no infraction!

* 2) Was I a fool, or just fixed? 

You were a fool to have called the director, not in the bidding.

Yes, the double by east was ridiculous, as it just as easily
could have turned a normal result for EW into a bottom.
East has no way of knowing that 3N making is going to be a poor board.
In that light, yes, you were fixed.

Steve Myerson (sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com)
From: paul@sco.COM (Paul Jackson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: slam bidding problem
Date: 28 Dec 92 18:40:14 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.

In article <BzrzDI.ADA@me.utoronto.ca> zhang@me.utoronto.ca (Xiaodong Zhang) writes:
>
>We play precision, my hand is: 
>S: AKQJ987
>H: -
>D: AKQ
>C: XXX
>
>my partner open 1C! (16+ hcp), the bidding is:
>
>pard  I
>1c!   1S
>2h    3S
>4c    4nt
>5s*   5nt
>6d    7nt
>
>* we use RKC

In other words, 5S shows 2 key cards and the queen of trumps. Presumably,
you have agreements as to what trump is and, presumably, in this auction the
trump suit is clubs. So, missing a key card you sign off. What is the
problem.

Note - I'm NOT saying that I like blackwood, I actually think that it is an
awful bid. But, having made it, you should manage to land in 6N.

>
>The full hand is:
>
>partner              I
>S: T              AKQJXXX
>H: AKQXXX         -  
>D: X              AKQ
>C: KQJXX          XXX
>
>
>The opponents cashed CA and down one. My question is:
>How to avoid grand slam using precision?

Depends on version of precision. How about a simple version :
1C	1S
2H	3S (presumably guaranteeing a self sufficient suit AND SETTING TRUMPS)
4H (Cue, if available, denying first round club and diamond control)
	6S or 6N

Or, if 3S has not set the trump suit :
1C	1S
2H	2S (Why jump for no purpose?)
3C (natural)	3S (This should now set trumps!!)
4H (as above)	6H or 6N
From: taylor@foraker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Eric Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: problem over preempt
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:56:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.234826.10469@ramon.bgu.ac.il>, avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira) writes:
|> sperbr@vccnw12.its.rpi.edu (Ron E Sperber) writes:
|> : Playing on okbridge with someone who is a reasonable player,but in a
|> : somewhat unfamiliar partnership you pick up the following hand red vs white
|> : at IMPs:
|> :
|> : AJ
|> : KQJ8
|> : A86
|> : AJ98
|> :
|> : RHO opens 4D. Your call.
|> :
|> 
|> There are 2 options, pass or double. A pass is the road for a sure plus.
|> However, beating 4D undoubled is not going to get you many imps. Partner
|> may not have enough to come in, so I'd tend to double. With luck, partner
|> will find the right bid. I'll pass 4S, but if doubled will take the double
|> out to 4NT.

This just begs disaster does it not?
You have only one stopper in diamonds with no source
of tricks.  Partner probably has a bust and 4S may only go
down 1 or 2.  Bidding 4NT at IMPS may go down 4 or worse.

I blew a match once and went -1400 the last time I did
something like that.   (ala Danil And Deba)

I could have been only -300 which would not have been
enough to lose the match.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: problem over preempt
From: avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:48:26 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

sperbr@vccnw12.its.rpi.edu (Ron E Sperber) writes:
: Playing on okbridge with someone who is a reasonable player,but in a
: somewhat unfamiliar partnership you pick up the following hand red vs white
: at IMPs:
:
: AJ
: KQJ8
: A86
: AJ98
:
: RHO opens 4D. Your call.
:

There are 2 options, pass or double. A pass is the road for a sure plus.
However, beating 4D undoubled is not going to get you many imps. Partner
may not have enough to come in, so I'd tend to double. With luck, partner
will find the right bid. I'll pass 4S, but if doubled will take the double
out to 4NT.

Avi

--
Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D.         Ben-Gurion University Medical School
Dept. of Surgery A.             POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel
avir@chen.bgu.ac.il             AVIR@BGUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: adam@irvine.com (Adam Beneschan)
Subject: Re: opening lead against 6NT
Organization: Irvine Compiler Corp., Irvine, California, USA
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:20:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.164445.7184@rayssd.ssd.ray.com> sgm@sgfb.ssd.ray.com 
(Steven G. Myerson) writes:

> What if partner wants a club lead,
> and knows the contract will go down if indeed the club is led?
>
> Does this mean partner cannot double for a particular lead
> and then double again for penalties?

Yes, it pretty much does.  However, in my opinion, having a penalty
double available isn't really necessary.  (This was also the opinion
of Lightner when he invented the lead-directing double for an unusual
lead.)

At IMPs, doubling for penalties doesn't gain you much.  In most cases,
you're only going to beat the slam one trick, so an extra 50 or 100
points won't gain you many IMPs.  It's more important to use the
double (or lack of it) to indicate a lead and make sure you beat the
slam.  In those rare cases when the slam is a silly one that goes down
2 or 3, you will lose some points by not having a penalty double
available, but hopefully your teammates will stay out of the silly
slam and you'll get a big plus swing anyway.  In this case, the
penalty double still won't gain many IMPs.

At matchpoints, the difference between +50 and +100 is potentially a
lot greater, but if you're +50:

1)  You will beat all the pairs that don't find the right lead.
2)  You will beat all the pairs whose opponents stay out of slam.  And
    if the slam is beatable, there's a fair chance that a lot of pairs
    won't find it.  (Even if the slam is unbeatable, in an average
    field there usually seem to be a lot of pairs that don't find it.)

So if you find the right lead to beat a slam, you should get usually a
good matchpoint score whether you double for penalties or not.  This
is why I think it's better to use the double as lead directional than
for penalties.

Of course, if you think the slam can be beaten regardless of the
opening lead, by all means double (unless the opponents have a better
slam they can run to).

                                -- Adam
From: paul@sco.COM (Paul Jackson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: alerted double; opening lead
Keywords: double, lead
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:45:44 GMT
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.

In article <21DEC199211131587@mary.fordham.edu> nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim) writes:
>vulnerable, East dealer) I held as South:  
>           S-xx H-Axx D-KJTx C-AKJ9
>East opened 2H, weak.  I bid 2N, which for my partnership shows 15-18hcp
>and a definite heart stopper.  (Qxx would not qualify, QJx would.) West
>passed, and my partner bid 3N.  East doubled, alerted.  I asked for an 
>explanation, and got:  "*Demands* a heart lead."  
>
>I passed, partly on the assurance of a heart lead.  All passed.  The ace of
>spades hit the table as the opening lead (asks for honor to be dropped under 
>it or for count, according to  their card).  "Director!" by me produced West's 
>assurance that he had no hearts, and so couldn't lead one.  Not much to the 
>play; West ran his 7-card spade suit for down 3, doubled:
>-800 was of course a bottom.  With no outside entry, East's double seems
>really strange.  I have two questions:
>
>1) If West had had a heart and still led the ace of spades, what would the
>director have ruled?

West is allowed to lead whatever they want. Looking at that spade holding a
spade lead is certainly reasonable (right many times that partner has a
number of hearts != 1). Of course, if a spade lead is wrong and a heart lead
right East will lost the post mortem big time and a partnership might die
but that is hardly a matter for the director to worry about.

The double by East said "West, I COMMAND you to look at your hand and lead a
heart", this doesn't mean that West has to obey the command if his hand
warrants.

>
>2) Was I a fool, or just fixed? 

The double by East was presuambly just a bad bid (ie, you were fixed).
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: an1739@anon.penet.fi ("Professor Who?")
Subject: Information transmission
X-Anonymously-To: rec.games.bridge
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:47:49 GMT

To Mike Fagan: if you have not yet received my response (min-NT's) please 
e-mail me at yangboy@math.ntu.edu.tw

Tom Andrews wrote about this sequence:

1H-2S*-3C**-4D***	* heart raise ** splinter ***splinter

I feel a kind of obligation to respond to this thread since I was the one who
taught Tom and David this treatment.  In any case, two people at least had
told the net at large that Tom was remiss for not informing the opponents of
the meaning of 4D, had 2S been natural.  

Of course, I should mention that 2S, by Tom's partner, was not alerted,
and 3C was intended as Natural but alerted and explained (correctly) as
a splinter.  Now Tom explained 4D as a splinter (correctly--  since I knew
that was how they played) and refused to answer what 4D would be if 2S was
NAT.  Of course, he strove to bid as best as he can as if 2S was NAT.

The opponents have a right to your AGREEMENTS.  They have no right to general
bridge knowledge or your mental working, and no right to any information about
your HAND.  What mistakes you make with your system is between the partners
and opponents have no recourse as long as they have been appraised of the 
correct agreements......  They can ask, but Tom have no obligation whatever
to answer; they can also deduce it if they know Tom well or his bidding
philosophy or habits, but AT THEIR OWN RISK.

Since the auction in question said exactly what the opponents was told
(or knew) at the end of the auction, there was no damage from infractions
(the failure to alert 2S was the only one I saw) and no adjustment should
ever ever be given the opponents.  Tom _MAY_ suffer a penalty (procedural)
if it was judged that he had been too erratic (more than a couple of mistakes
a session would be about needed) or if the tournament was important enough.

About Rob Buchner's post--- would Rob please write to me (yangboy@math.ntu.
edu.tw) if he want my opinion on the matter--- I will not join this thing
in public now that it is a pure flamefest.  ANyone else would be welcome
as well........

	Professor Who? at your service.
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From: pynq@quads.uchicago.edu (Jeremy Mathers)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Yet another place the blame.
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:25:15 GMT
Reply-To: pynq@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: D. J. Dougherty & Associates

Vulnerability: Unknown.  Imps, West dealer.

The hands:

W) Qx,Qxx,KJx,Kxxxx
N) AJxx,xxx,Qxxxx,J
E) x,AKJx,Axxx,Axxx
S) Kxxxxx,xxx,x,Qxx

The auction:

     1D (1) - 1S (!) - X - 2S
     3C     - P      - 3S - P
     4C     - P      - 6C (all pass)

(1) EW are playing Precision, and require a four card major in order to
open 2C when holding only 5 clubs.  Thus, the diamond opening frequently
contains better clubs than diamonds.

Down one when declarer failed to guess trumps.  After ruffing the second
spade, he played small to the king.

Assign the blame among any or all of the following:
East's bidding, West's bidding, the declarer play, bad luck, the opps
having overcalled on a 4 card suit, and/or anything else you can think of.

************************************************************************
Our buggy newsreader limits
the length of .signature files
to 4 lines, but I have figured out
a way to have as many lines as

	- pynq@quads.uchicago.edu, who is still costing the net
	  hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars, every time he posts -
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: pynq@quads.uchicago.edu (Jeremy Mathers)
Subject: Re: This actually happened to me...
Reply-To: pynq@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: D. J. Dougherty & Associates
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 07:19:35 GMT

In article <7215@tivoli.UUCP> taylor@foraker.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Eric Taylor) writes:
...
>The opponents were also probably a favorite to make 3NT.
>If you were only -300 I would smile and be happy. :-)

Alas, no.  Pard has just enuf stuff to keep them from making anything.
His hearts were Kxxxx, which meant that he had exactly one heart trick,
but lots of misc trash outside.

>If you bid 1S with the above hand, what are you going to do
>when partner bids 2NT?  That will probably be the last time you
>play with that partner.  If you feel you MUST bid with the above
>hand, make a preemptive bid.

In fact, we play Precision, so opener is limited.

Playing standard, you are probably much worse off if partner does have a
2N rebid (i.e., lotsa points, but bad hearts).  He could still go
for 300 or so, but now clearly opps are making nothing.

************************************************************************
I am master of my domain.

	- pynq@quads.uchicago.edu, who is still costing the net
	  hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars, every time he posts -
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: ding@msc.cornell.edu (Gary Ding)
Subject: How do you play this 6c?
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 03:27:57 GMT

	IMP match, favorable vul.
	bidding went:  dealer S
	E 	S 	W	N
		p	2d*	X
	p	3d	p	6c
	p 	p	p	
	* 2d is weak 2.
	South came down with:        You (north) have:
	S	ATXX			S Kx
	H	AQxx			H Jx
	D	xx			D A9X
	C	xxx			C AKQxxx
	
	E leads DT, West plays D8. What's best line of play?
From: doug@cm.deakin.OZ.AU (Douglas Newlands)
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: Re: ethics
Date: 23 Dec 1992 02:36:46 GMT
Organization: Deakin University, Geelong, Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: aragorn.cm.deakin.oz.au

:West is an LM who should know better

What a quaint idea! Being an LM or GM just tells you that someone has played
bridge over a period of time; it guarantees nothing about their skills or
their ethics.

:None vul; W deals
:N    E    S    W     Tx
:--   --   --   3H    AKQ9
:p    p               KQxx
:                     AKx
:

:West overcalled on:

:---
:876xxx
:Axxx
:xxx
:
:1) is a system that allows first-seat 3-level preempts like this systemically
:too destructive for the ACBL?
:
:2) assuming that this sort of preempting style is tolerated, what recourse
:do I have when not informed about it?

Perhaps you should play penalty doubles and this sort of thing will not be
perpetrated successfully against you.
Is it not the case that you want to play double for take out and are asking
for a rule to protect you when the opponents take advantage of the downside of
your choice of methods?
Terence Reese was accused (bad choice of word) in the 50's of preempting any
time he saw a 7 card suit; Bergen Cohen appear to be similar except they need
6 cards ( even 5 sometimes). It's a good style that keeps your opponents
anxious all the time. It's the main strength of weak NTs as well.
If you can't beat them join them and stop looking for rules to put everyone
into a bidding straight-jacket.

doug.
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: ttllarsa@eua.ericsson.se (Lars Andersson)
Subject: singel or double dummy
Keywords: Declarer play
Reply-To: ttllarsa@eua.ericsson.se
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:41:23 GMT

North:    KJ6543
          KT8
          KJ4
          A



South:    8
          AJ752
          Q976
          J32

East opens 1C, natural. South bids 1H and West 2C. NS end up in 4H.
How do you play it on a small club lead!?






These were the EW hands:
West:                East:
92                   AQT7
Q4                   963
T532                 A8
KT854                Q976


Did you make it single dummy or double dummy!?

--lars
Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
Subject: A Defensive Problem
From: avir@chen.bgu.ac.il (Avi Roy Shapira)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:21:55 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

Okbridge is becoming a meeting place for r.g.ber's and more and more of us
meet there for an occasional skirmish. This is good. The other day, our
own professor BY dropped by (sorry we didn't play a few hands together BY)

Anyhow, playing with a good partner, 2/1 with gedgets I picked up in
4th seat, W v R, the following collection of tickets:
   JT72, K983, A74, K6

After 3 passes, do you open?  I guess it is close but the possesion of both
majors made me open 1D (weird huh?)  RHO overcalls 1NT Pard X's LHO XX's.
and there it stands.


             98,
             QT,
             QJT3
             A9752
                       JT72
                       K983
                       A73
                       K6

Parter leads the SK, and follows with SQ, SA and small spade to the J.
dummy discards two small clubs. Declarer follows three times and discards
a diamond on the J of spades.

How do you continue?

--
Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D.         Ben-Gurion University Medical School
Dept. of Surgery A.             POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel
avir@chen.bgu.ac.il             AVIR@BGUVM.BITNET