HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wallmann@backus.pu.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Natuerlich!)
Subject: Amiga Blitter 40% slower than Atari Blitter (???)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 19:22:09 GMT
Organization: MSD software vault #9 @THD

In article <35531@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>By contrast, the Amiga blitter sat on the Chip bus.  It could hit memory 
>twice as fast as the 68000 could, and it could of course run in parallel
>with the 68000 as long as there was no contention for resources (eg, the 68000
>didn't need Chip RAM).  So that's a best case 4x bandwidth improvement over the

Let me check out how this might be worst case though.
You are just scrolling in a window, keeping your finger on the arrow down key.

You forgot to run ye olde raytracer in the background. The CPU can't do 
anything useful. (Even on this HP Workstation that's the regular state 
of affairs 90% of the time). That cuts the 4x factor into 2x. 
Now lets assume that the Amiga is running in a comparable resolution, 
640x200x2 bitplanes or 320x200x4 bitplanes to the Atari.
According to the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual '86 Page 188-190, (*)
this means that the Blitter isn't able to hit the bus twice as fast in
those modes, since the display needs those cycles.
That cuts the 2x factor into 1x.

Since the Amiga blitter is apparently unable (**) to smartly detect when not
to fetch the destination in a  src/dst->dst operation (the usual one for
scrolling a window up or down) we have another perfomance lossage of about
30%. Add to this that the Amiga has a 10% lower system clock anyway, then
this comes off worstcase as a factor of 0.6x bandwidth.

Actually you still have the capacity of the Amiga to use the time multi-
tasking, but you won't be scrolling any faster.


Nat!
(*) as I understand it, I am neither mathematician nor electrical engineer.
    (thank god, for the former)

(**) this information gleaned from recent c.s.a.a discussion and also from
    the lack of counterfactual evidence in the blitter doku.
-- 
 -----   Email: wallmann@backus.pu.informatik.th-darmstadt.de  -----
                "Bang that bit that doesn't bang"                 
 Album of the month: "Psalm 69" Ministry

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: boberg@lysator.liu.se (Stefan Boberg)
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000 but NO AUDIO
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:34:21 GMT

fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:

>	While 16 bit sound would be nice, isn't there a lot of overhead with
>	it.  I think an uncompressed sound file would be about 700k/sec if
>	my math isn't way off.

  Ehm, divide it by eight. More like 88KB/s mono or 176KB/s stereo 
assuming a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. With MPEG sound compression you
could get this down to roughly 29.4KB/s in stereo.
--
Stefan Boberg - AP & EE student at Linkoping Institute of Technology, Sweden
 Author of LhA, ArjA and LhArcA. Co-author of Alien Breed, Project X ...
  EMail: boberg@lysator.liu.se, lha@augs.se           FIDO: 2:204/404.7
    UUCP:  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswe!team17!boberg
From: jdutka@wpi.WPI.EDU (John Dutka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Struggling computer science student needs a free A4000.
Keywords: give money now!
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:03:16 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <9712@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>Well whiners, I can easily top that: I'M A POOR COMMODORE EMPLOYEE!  NOW!
>(Do I have to sign such a post with Retep Lettik these days?)

How about this - I'm a poor grad student trying to pay off auto insurance
and make payents on a Celica GTS and ~$30K in loans, while paying rent,
assorted expenses, and rather large tuition bills.  Better? :)


-- 
| husc6!m2c!wpi!jdutka | "No matter how big a straw, you can't suck water up |
| jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu   |  more than 34 feet."                                |
| John Dutka, Jr.      |     -A WPI PROFESSOR WHO WISHES TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS |
| jdutka%wpi.wpi.edu%mitvma.bitnet __________________________________________|
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Toaster for Falcon?
Date: 4 Oct 92 08:28:33 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

jamesb@warren1a.its.rpi.edu (Basonge James) writes:
: What if New-Tek developed a Toaster for the Falcon? With the

They won't.

: economical advantage of the Falcon, could there possibly be a
: video studio that costs less than $3500? What would happen to

As they would have to redesign the whole Toaster, both soft- and
hardware, it would be much more expensive. Also there is no reason to
develope a new Toaster for such extremely small market (especially as
according to atari-area Falcon doesn't really start to ship until
early 1993...).

: the Amiga if there was a Falcon Toaster that was cheaper and
: faster than an Amiga Toaster?

It would not be any faster nor cheaper - 68030-Amiga is faster than
68030-Falcon, also develepement costs would increase the price of
Falcon-Toaster a lot.

: My roomate, an Atari user feels that the time is long overdue
: for New-Tek to cross over to other platforms. I calmly told him
: that the Toaster is dependant on the Amiga's unique architecture,
: but he wouldn't shut up. Can anybody settle this for us?

Toaster is designed tightly around Amiga chipset - there is no way
they could do a easy & cheap change of platform - also there is no
need for a platform change, as Amiga is _the_ platform in
video/cable-TV-industry.

: He insists that the Falcon architcture is much too revolutionary
: for New-Tek to ignore, and is graphically superior than the Amiga.

Two things: Toaster generates it's own graphics, also if it did not,
Falcon would lack the number of colors and high enough palette.
(AGA-graphics are at least equal to Falcon graphics).
Second, there is _nothing_ revolutionary in Falcons architecture.
Falcon is a cheap system with cheap solutions (for example the
single-busness, lack of expansion slots or external keyboard etc.).
The architecture of the system is more from stone age than from the
90's.

: He thinks that he can convert me in to an Atari user. Although the
: Falcon is a pretty good computer....

Falcon is (when it is being shipped in numbers) pretty cheap computer
and that shows up.

--
Jarkko Lindblad
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: danaf@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Subject: Re: Way to go Commodore! Yeah...right./Falcon guff
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:39:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.122611.1661@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>, mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:

|> >It would kill 56001 even if it had enough ram - 56001 doesn't do
|> >floating points.
|> 
|> Not true. Raytracing hardly needs any floating point operation. That's why
|> Turbo Silver (integer based) runs faster than the 68881 version of Sculpt 4D
|> (floating point).
|> Integer operations aren't the best thing since you have to scale your
|> operands often. The fractional arithmetic of the 56001 is much better.

And Imagine (floating point) runs faster than both of them. It's just program-
ming. I'd guess, tho, that most renderings DO benefit from floating point...

|> Regards,
|> 
|> -- 
|> Michael van Elst
|> UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
|> Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
|>                                 "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
From: slbfn@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: "We Want DIG!
Date: 25 Sep 92 23:44:04 MDT
Organization: Utah State University


Remeber when we were little kids?  Whenever we wanted lunch we would
pick up our forks and knives and start shouting in a harmonious roar,
"We want lunch!  We want lunch!  We want lunch!  We want lunch!" and at
the same time we'd pound the forks and knives on the table?  No?  Well
I do, and I feel like doing it again, only with a different "want":
         
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"
	"We want DIG!"		"We want DIG!"

:)

Greetings,

	Travis Carter
	slbfn@cc.usu.edu

An A3000 owner patiently waiting the arrival of DIG

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: u894776@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (James McCoull)
Subject: Re: A Commodore Engineer speaks out.
Keywords: Reverse Enginneering AGA - can it be done?
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 03:34:17 GMT

bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R. Block) writes:

[some nice points on chipset]

Just some questions... if KS3.x has faster graphics primitives,
faster directory handling etc... why don't commodore put it in as
standard on the Amiga600?  The quicker we can get rid of this 2.04
stuff the better :)

Just some thoughts [from a pathological hardware basher :)] -
surely CBM should not supply any machines with CPU's  below about
the 68030@16 [32bit bus], if they want people to stop bashing the hardware
on the "games" / "demos" side.  Particularly the days of chipram only
machines should be discarded.  I can possibly see the need for the
current ECS,68000,A600, KS3.0 class of machines to support the lower end -
but please no CPU crippled AGA machines.

Now a nice machine would be an AGA+030 [no HD :)] for about $600 US
running say KS3.0 (with some bloody decent fonts in rom!) - ie extend
the rom with some features to make a diskless amiga almost possible :)

[if text viewers etc... were in rom... we wouldnt need these silly "what
path should i use" sorts of arguments now would we :)]

One final thing...

	PLEASE NO BLOODY 68020 BASED MACHINES! [AAAAAARG :)]
From: dtiberio@csws20.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A4000(Not 3.0Mill. Amigas,the new number is 4.5Mio)
Date: 7 Oct 92 03:30:09 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook

In article <9746@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.235109.29693@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@csws18.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
> >
> >	Are you serious or just joking? I don't see how the period and
> >comma can have reversed meanings, Many countries use different formats
> >for dates. but that is irrelevant of punctuation, I did think that
> >was funny. though,
>
>Uh, you're wrong. There are indeed a load of different number formats.

>You see, people in other countries not only dare to speak a different
>language, no they have even more differing habits!!!

	Okay, please reread the first paragraph...note how every place that
should have had a comma instead has a period, and vice versa. Assume that a
capitalized word is the beginning of a sentance.

	BTW, I am a European even though I reside in the inferior parts of
the world. Good old New York, land of the car stereo thiefs! :)

	Oh, BTW, I bought an AUDIOVOX...


-- 
      Amiga Graphics Association BBS (516) 473-6351  24 HRS, 14.4k baud
   RayTraces - 3D Objects - Music Modules - Sound Samples - Scalable Fonts
   David Tiberio - Total Productions         Coming Soon: USENET and EMAIL
From: CS19241727H@LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (KOUKOULAS, STEVEN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: A4000 query
Date: 30 Sep 92 02:55:10 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24


Help me please,
	I havent' been on the news system for a few weeks and have missed
any specifications given about the A4000. Could someone please write up a 
detailed specification list for the A4000 so all of us who have missed it will
get a clear picture of what the NEW Amiga has to offer.
	Things like resolutions, no of colors, workbench capability, speed
any newer chips etc.. I would greatly appreciate it..
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: danaf@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Subject: Re: FACTS? (was: Re: REAL FALCON 030 SPECS)
Keywords: n
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:53:04 GMT

In article <35376@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:

|> >Max. 16MB of fast RAM on the motherboard seems a bit constrained to me.
|> 
|> I know other systems have more, but really, does anyone (ok, anyone besides
|> Chris Green) really use that kind of RAM in everyday work.  I have 18MB at
|> home, 22MB at work, and I can't remember the last time I dropped down to
|> less than 5-6 MBs doing anything.  And we're talking about GNU Emacs, resident
|> compilers, "Assign INCLUDE: RAM:INCLUDE", megadiskbuffers, multiple Pro-Pages,
|> Pro-Draws, and PageStreams, POST, etc.  

Agreed, FAST RAM is not a problem. But I'd LOVE to know how you get all that on
a 2 meg CHIP RAM machine! Do you know something you're not telling us!?!?

(Rumor time: Dave's got 4 megs CHIIIP RAAAM. Dave's got 4 megs CHIIIIP RAAAAAM.)

8)

|> -- 
|> Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Cool Advanced High-End Systems You Can't See Yet)
|>  "The Crew That Never Rests"  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh   BIX: hazy
|>              "You lie so much you believe yourself" -Metallica

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: PC -vs- Amiga in Math
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 00:42:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.203817.25580@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ccb8m@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Charles C. Bundy) writes:
>My two cents on picking an Amiga or an Intel Clone:
>
>If you are going to be doing a lot of number crunching, and you
>don't need animated visual display go with the Intel box.  In
>terms of raw number crunching the Amiga doesn't keep up with
>a 486 or Weitek based Intel 386.

You don't do the number crunching on your local system. You do it on things
which are 10 times faster. The 486 is hardly a replacement for a good 
workstation.
>
>If you want to do some dazzling presentations, would like to be
>running something in conjunction with your math programs, or
>want to do some memory intensive stuff, go with a motorola
>based Amiga.

Whatever...
>
>Bottom line - software and compatibility at school.

To a point.
>
>The Intel box has tons of stuff (Mathematica, Maple, Math CAD, etc)
>Most educational institutions use Messy Dog machines + WordPerfect.
>Most journal submissions require WordPerfect (unfortunately) format,
>tho many will accept other text formats w/ conversion fees & delay
>to print.  The Amiga can be used in this scenario, it just requires
>more work on the part of the user to interface with a Messy Dog
>mindset.  (Please don't yowl about MS-DOS = Messy Dog.  It was a
>wonderful accomplishment in 1980, its just a pity that MS hasn't
>improved upon it.)

Most journal submissions do no insist on Wordperfect. I don't know of any 
that do. Maple is on the Amiga. Mathematica runs better on workstations
than via bank switching. In any case Maple is every bit as good. MathCad
is not to be taken seriously.
>
>If you don't want to deal with interoperability issues, and you
>want extensive software and support go with the Intel box.  In
>your case of running math programs it will be the best choice.

I simply don't agree. Mathematical journals prefer TeX documents, if anything.
Please keep in mind that it's the content not the look that matters. A hand
written document would do if it was a substantial result. The Intel boxes
do not really have the software. They are still hounded by the 640k issue.
Should OS/2 succeed, then at that point it might be a different story. At the
moment there are only a few programs that a mathematically inclined
person could profit by. On the other hand, their sense of elegance would be
so upset with the PC that the end result might very well be negative.
Having worked in a mathematical environment for over 20 years now, I have
yet to meet anyone who really liked the PC among colleagues. They are still
dismissed and for very good reasons.
 
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
From: kevinm@ocf.berkeley.edu (Kevin Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HAM-8 only 256,000 colors?
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:30:42 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep28.131102.29608@hsr.no> david-s@ifi.hsr.no writes:
>Why does C= say that HAM-8 has 256,000 colors?
>
>I may be totally wrong, but:
>
>The old HAM mode (HAM-6) could change 4 bits of color info for each of
>R, G and B, and also had 16 base colors. (2^4)^3 = 4,096. The palette
>was 4,096 colors, i.e. 4,096 colors at once.
>
>B u t :  This doesn't work on HAM-8: You have 6 bits of color info, i.e.
>(2^6)^3 = 262,144 (not 256,000!) colors. But you also have a palette of

Sorry, you are totally wrong.  The reason that you get 262,144 and not 256,000
is because of a small oddity in computers.  You are thinking base 10, and 
computers are base two.  1 Kilobyte in not 1000 bytes, but 1024 bytes (2^10).
So, surprizingly enough, when you multiply 256,000 by 1.024, you get 262,144!
Because of the factor of 1024, 262,144 colors is actually 256,000 colors in
"computer terms" but 262,144 colors in reality.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 00:10:43 EDT
From: <DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Palettes and stuff (was Re: Some random thoughts on the A4000)
 <OA92-901-306p1_A5002262@piraya.bad.se>

In article <OA92-901-306p1_A5002262@piraya.bad.se>,
Hans_Bergengren@p1.thulos.bbs.bad.se (Hans Bergengren) says:

> IG> You're telling me that a video design (e.g. the A4000) that has
> IG> CPU/blitter contention in every mode (with extreme contention in
> IG> 8-bitplane hires) is better than a VRAM design with no contention

>The A500-A4000 hasn't got contention in ALL modes. Learn your homework FIRST,
>THEN speak!  And VRAM, of course Amiga graphics boards have VRAM, you
>can't have 24-bit high resolution with a DRAM design (at least not if you want
>to be able to paint to the screen buffer!)

I think you need a little homework. :)
You're right about the A500 - in most modes there is no contention. This is
an artifact of the extreme slowness of the 68000. On a 68040 machine (e.g.
A4000) there WILL be contention in EVERY mode. The speed is also hurt by
the slow 280ns cycles and lack of burst mode.
From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE
Date: 29 Sep 1992 01:04:26 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
:This whole multimedia thing's getting out of hand - it's just a marketing term
: invented by Apple that no one can agree what it means, exactly.  Some people
: think it means being able to watch video in a window, in which case adding a
: 68020 to the low-end Amigas won't help them.  Others (namely Microsoft) seem

No, but a double-buffered intuition window under 3.0 will do wonders.  ;)

: I agree that, to round out the Amiga market, we need a mid-range model
: with an '020 or 30 (I say forget the '020, myself), with AGA, selling for
: under $1500 or so.  Such a machine would replace the A2000, and I believe
: that Commodore will be introducing one shortly.

I say a socketed LC030, no MMU/FPU.  Motorola advises against using
the 020 in new products, if I remember my lit. correctly.

: one.  And I suspect that most buyers of CD-I, CDTV, etc. at this point are
: computer-literate techno-junkies.

I suspect you're probably right.

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: 	"Yeah, if improving the system is screwing the user base,     :)
(:	 you all need to be screwed more often." -Dave Haynie	      :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason Balicki (KodaK))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A4000(Not 3.0Mill. Amigas,the new number is 4.5Mio)
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:26:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Sep30.060048.24518@uni-paderborn.de> laire@uni-paderborn.de (Ralph Schmidt) writes:
>I only want to correct the number: instead of the old count 3.000000, we
>should use now 4.500000:-B

Well, I've got one of them, who's got the other 3 and a half :)
>
>Regards...
>-- 
>Ralph Schmidt                                            laire@uni-paderborn.de
>University of Paderborn (Germany)

--Jason "just a jest" Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
From: jsg@ccs.northeastern.edu (Jonas S Green)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some random thoughts on the A4000
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:15:22 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU

>> The A4000 does resemble the Quadra 700 quite a bit.  (It has an extra appeal
>> to those who have an irrational hatred of Macs.)  The hardware, too, of the
>> A4000 is more advanced:  plenty of ZorroIII slots, drive bays, and easy
>> CPU and graphics upgrades.  Now Commodore needs to make sure that the


Just to comment at this point, Plenty is more than the two slots, which the 
Quadra has.

>    The hardware is more advances??  I thought that was what everybody
>was complaining about.  The A4000 does not have any networking built
>in, the Quadra has ethernet and local talk.  The A4000 does not have
>SCSI.  The graphics on the Quadra are 24 bit.  Easy graphics upgrade on
>the A4000?  Sort of like the easy graphics upgrade on the A3000?  
>Without DIG what does it really matter.

The Quadra does have LocalTalk built in, along with all the other Macs. It is
misinformation however to say that it has Ethernet Built in. (It is a partial
truth). To get the Quadra's "built in" ethernet to work, you must buy an
Ethernet Tranceiver for $187.50 w/ tax. This Tranciever is poorly designed, 
in that moving your Mac to a new location means "breaking" the Ethernet cabling.