HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:15:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.183758.2411@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>>But how do I tell if someone ignores the core beliefs of Jesus?  Not only can't
>>Christians agree on who is a Christian, they can't even agree on what the core
>>beliefs of Jesus are.  It's as if there were a few dozen mutually contradictive
>>Republican party platforms.
>I would suggest that people read the New Testament for a
>definition of what Jesus stood for.  It is the "party platform" of
>Christianity.  To those who say that it has ambiguities, I would
>reply that there is plenty of unambigous and clear teachings of
>Christ to go around.

That doesn't answer the question.  What "ambiguous" means is that when a lot
of different people look at it, they see a lot of different things.  If that's
so, it's by definition ambiguous.  You cannot say that it's not ambiguous if
that happens--the word just doesn't have that meaning; if different people see
different things, it's _automatically_ ambiguous.

So I've read the New Testament.  It turns out that even though I read it, I
still cannot figure out who is a "real" Christian.  Now what?

Fine.  I read the Gospels and conclude that to be like Jesus I must destroy
things like he did to fig trees.  Thus the Crusaders were behaving in a
Christ-like manner.

>There seems to be a notion that the fights that different
>Christian denominations have with one another were over the basic
>values of Jesus.

Of course, the fights were over other things _also_, but the disagreement over
the basic values of Jesus _did_ have _something_ to do with it.

>Rather,
>after reading the Gospels, one gets an idea of what Jesus stood
>for: e.g. Love of the one true God, love of neighbor from which
>springs forth mercy, compassion, unlimited forgiveness, etc.
>These values are not contested by any Christian denomination that
>I know of but are universally accepted because to deny them would
>deny the essence of who Jesus was.

These values were contested by many, such as the Crusaders and the
Inquisition.

Many Christian denominations also accept these values, but disagree on what
they mean--exactly what does mercy or compassion _mean_?  Many Christians
do things in the name of mercy or compassion that other Christians think are
not merciful or compassionate.

Saying that "real" Christians are merciful or compassionate doesn't tell me
which ones are real Christians--because you won't agree on what behavior is
merciful or compassionate either.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Bonus, Iniquus, Celer - Delegitus Duo)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: The Fringes of Reason (again!)
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:48:20 EST

For those of you looking for a good source of information (hey - FAQ response)
I will recommend again, "The Fringes of Reason, a Whole Earth Catalog", edited
by Ted Schultz, ISBN 0-517-57165-X.  It is )or was) available from the WEC, at 
Fringes
Whole Earth Catalog
27 Gate Five Rodad
Sausalito, CA 94965
415-332-1716.

From California????/

Anyway......it is a pretty much skeptical, slightly cynical, wildly funny
review of the Fringes of Reason.  It has pro and con arguments, and provides
many, many references.  Anyone who pokes around in this newsgroup should try to
get their hands on a copy.  And then read it.  

George Kambic
standard disclaimer

Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21792 alt.messianic:3754
From: jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Tauber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Chuck Missler and imminent Armageddon
Date: 29 Dec 1992 15:32:09 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: tartarus.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

I have listened to many of Chuck Missler's tapes and the stuff
you've described certainly sounds like his style. He gets a bit
excited about scientific findings because that's his field but
other than that, he does his homework. When presenting an
exposition of a passage, he'll read tens of commentaries on it 
first himself, then he'll pick out interesting things said. He's
been doing this for 20 years or so and his tapes are distributed
freely by Fire Fighters for Christ (along with tapes by
Josh McDowell , Chuck Smith, Chuck Swindoll, etc - a lot of Chucks!)

Regarding the message of Ge 49.10, I don't know enough Hebrew but
for those that do but don't have a TaNaKH handy, the first letter
of each word are:
	lamed
	yod
	shin
	mem
	vav
	mem
	resh
	ayin
	kaf
	yod
	shin
	vav
	yod
	ayin
Shepherd is there as is Yeshua with an extra yod. Appropriate verse
as well, don't you think?

Chuck Missler does read from the KJV but he insists it is only because
it's what he knows. He reads from other translations occasionally and
actually says he has no preference on one of my tapes. I personally
have problems with the NIV and changed to NASB after disagreeing with
so many of the NIV translation decisions.

I have found Chuck to be a most helpful teacher. He does go on
a bit about astronomy and warfare but where he does concentrate
on the fundamentals of life in Christ, he is mature and insightful. It's
straight down the line, conservative Christianity.

IHMS

James Tauber (Yaakov ben-Avraham)
jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: rosch@cpdw.enet.dec.com (Ray Rosch)
Subject: Skeptical Inquirer Winter Issue is on the stands!!!
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:15:51 GMT


The Skeptical Inquirer's winter issue arrived  in the mail yesterday.  This
quarter's cover story is on Psychics who 'help' police solve crimes as well as 
many other interesting, sane, rational articles debunking psi-, alien abduc-
tions etc.
A notice in SI says that it is now being distributed at various Book Stores and
newstands throughout the country.  [I have seen it at Barnes & Noble bookstores,
specifically in Nashua, NH]
Enjoy!

*
*	Opinions do not represent my employer
*
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Crucifixion of Jesus?
Reply-To: ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO)
Organization: HFSI, McLean VA.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:12:46 GMT

In article <1664@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.180435.17980@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>|> >Jesus being called "the son of Mary" (which implies an illegitimate
>|> >paternity), Jesus needing to be baptised, etc.
>|> 
>|> Just curious, but how does Jesus being called the son of Mary
>|> imply illegitimacy?  Remember, at the time of the passage Joseph
>|> is believed to have been dead.  It seems quite natural to be
>|> labeled the son of a widow, doesn't it?
>
>I doubt it.  In most cultures that use patronymics the son continues to use
>it his entire life, even after his father dies.  Changing a person's *name*
>just because his father died sort of defeats the purpose of having the extra
>part of the name, after all.
>
>So, yes, using a matronymic *does* imply the father is unknown.

If you're talking about a formal surname, I agree.  If you're
talking about identifying someone to some local neighborhood
people in an informal way, this is something different.  I believe
the passage in question has characteristics more of the latter
than the former...

>
>[Note, I *do* agree with you that the best evidence supports a crucifixion].
>
>|> > Arguably, you could be right, there *might* have been no need to mention
>|> > the cross - although we see that by the time he wrote 1 Corinthians,
>|> > Paul had become positively *obsessed* with "the cross." The significance
>|> > of this matter is that 1 Thess. 2:15 quite plainly blames the JEWS, not
>|> > the Romans, for executing Jesus. This implies that, when it was written
>|> > (c. 48) Paul had in mind a Jewish, not a Roman, execution.
>|> 
>|> Not at all. "Blame" as you put it, has no necessary connection
>|> with who did the actual execution.  If I pay someone to murder my
>|> brother, then who shoulders the majority of the blame, myself or
>|> the payed hit man?
>
>Under current law, I suspect you are considered equally to blame.
>
>Though I do not really like to talk about blame in this case, it obscures
>the real point of His execution.

I agree, but only brought it up when it was suggested that Paul's
"blame" of the Jews necessarily implied a Jewish execution.

>
>-- 
>sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
>  or
>Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com


-- 
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
HFS, Inc.		  VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive	 MS:601	   |    Voice:	(703) 827-6810
McLean, VA  22102	           |      FAX:	(703) 827-3729
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21912 alt.messianic:3804 alt.atheism:24749
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Date: 2 Jan 1993 02:13:03 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan1.191432.13862@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
|> In article <1humf2INNniq@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s17.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
|> >
|> >- Hitler was Roman Catholic.
|> 
|> His regime and his government, however, were not founded on
|> Christian values.  That is the point that was being made (although
|> I agree that Hitler's "religion" can cloud the issue).  I don't
|> know of any Christian denomination at the time of Hitler that
|> espoused the killing of non-Christians as even remotely following
|> Christ.  I won't even mention the superiority of one race over
|> another, etc. 

This is highly misleading.   In reality, most of the mainstream 
denominations in Germany expressed support for Hitler and for his 
regime at some time or other.

The Catholic Bishops conference in 1933 "expressed joy that through
the new state Christianity had been promoted, morality improved, and
and the struggle against Bolshevism and godlessness condicted with
energy and success"

In the same year, 1933 "The Catholic Students Union hails the
National Socialist revolution as the greatest spiritual breakthrough
of our time".

In 1934, responding to an enquiry from the Ministry for Church
affairs, the Catholic Seamen's Mission listed the books and papers
they provided to seamen.   The list included Hitler's own anti-
semitic Mein Kampf, and the newspaper Volkischer Beobachter.

In 1936, the Bishops of Hannover, Wurtemburg and Bavaria signed
a statement that said in part "We, together with the Reich Church
Committee, stand behind the Fuhrer in the life-struggle of the 
German people against Bolshevism.   In this struggle, the Church
mobilizes the forces of christian belief against unbelief."

In 1939, The Bishop of Hannover, Marahans, was one of the signers
of a statement that explained the need for the foundation of an
institute to "dejudaize" the Church.   "The foundation of this
institute is based on the conviction that Jewish influence in
all areas of German life, including therefore that of the Church
and religon, must be brought to life and eliminated."

At the outbreak of war, the Protestant bishops signed a statement
which read in part "So at this hour too we join with our nation
in intercession for the Fuhrer and the Reich...."

In November 1941, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Rottenburg
wrote "The fact that so many believing soldiers are among the
lists of the fallen justifies the conclusion that it is above all
those soldiers with true Christian belief who have helped to win 
the great victories."

It is also true that many individual Christians and Priests
resisted Hitler.  However, the Churches themselves gave their
followers a highly ambiguous and collaborationist message.

jon. 
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy
From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Sarfatti Forteana
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:39:43 GMT



Jack Sarfatti mentioned in one of his postings that his name was
derived from the Hebrew "tsarfati" ("French", from "Tsarfat = France"),
Italianized.


"Tsarfat" is, in fact, probably derived from "France" itself, backwards:

ts-a-r-f <-- f-r-a-n-ts (with regular loss of "n" [note]. The ending -at
of "Tsarfat" does not belong to the root, it's simply a feminine
suffix. "Ts" is a single letter in Hebrew).


If that is indeed the true etymology of "Tsarfat", it would be the only
case I know of (and I'm into comparative linguistics) where a word has
been borrowed backwards. A most serendipitous patronym, shouldn't you
think, for someone who says that causality can go *backwards*?

Roots of coincidence!


[Note] Hebrew loses the nasal dental "n" preceding another dental. See,
for instance, tarngol hoddu "turkey" literally, "hen of 'Hoddu'" <--
hindu "India", and the paradigm of the verb "to give".
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Psychics' Predictions Fizzle For 1992
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Date: 3 Jan 1993 10:34 MST  
 <1993Jan2.231655.12160@cs.unca.edu> <1993Jan3.011415.18436@ncsu.edu>
Distribution: na,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan3.011415.18436@ncsu.edu>, hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes...
>In article <1993Jan2.231655.12160@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>>>do you really think people actually believe this obvious entertainment?
>>
>>I'd say they do.  Aren't "psychics" sometimes used by the police or
>>is that bull*** dished out by the cons who call themselves psychics?
>> ...
> 
>  I've wondered about this too, and just found an article on this 
>topic in the new Winter 1993 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer.  It is
> 
>Psychics:  Do Police Departments Really Use Them?
>by J. A. Sweat and M. W. Durm  pages 148-158.  
> 
>  They surveyed the 50 police departments of the 50 largest cities
>in the U.S..  The majority don't use psychics at all, and it
>appears that the others have obtained very little benefit or 
>perhaps have been hindered.  The article provides the survey, the
>response data and a fair amount of discussion on the details.

I haven't seen this article yet (I'm still waiting for my copy of
the latest SI to be delivered), but in my own investigations of
psychic detectives, I've discovered that official police spokespersons
will say one thing, while individual police investigators will say
something different.  For instance, I called the Tempe Police Department
to ask about Scottsdale psychic Jonathan Chris's claim to have assisted
in the investigation of a murder case (which was solved) a few years
previously.  The police spokesman told me that the TPD did not use
Chris, does not use psychics, and has never used psychics.  When I
spoke to the police detective who actually was in charge of the
investigation, however, he said that he had indeed consulted with Chris
a couple of times.  (He also said that they already had the suspect in
mind, if not in custody, by the time Chris contacted them.)

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:21949 alt.messianic:3817 alt.atheism:24806
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 3 Jan 1993 03:30:55 CST
From: David James Alexander Hanley <U16244@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
 <1i44cuINN86i@iraul1.ira.uka.de> <1993Jan3.025224.17784@hfsi.uucp>
 <1i5ppdINN6af@fido.asd.sgi.com>

In article <1i5ppdINN6af@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon
Livesey) says:
>
>|>
>|> What do you mean by making contracts with Hitler?  Do you mean the
>|> the Pope made a contract with Hitler to kill non-Christians or to
>|> espouse the superiority of the Aryan race?
>
>I recall that the play "The Deputy" by Rudolph Hochhuth contains an
>allegation that the Catholic Church contracted to supply mercury from
>church owned mines in Spain to Germany for its war effort.

  Yes indeed.  The Vatican signed an agreement to support germany
throughout the war.  And indeed they did.  The catholic church did
their best to keep other countries out of the war, along with many
other nefarious activities with the political clout they control.
In return, the vatican got 10%(!) of germany's tax money, and a lot of
dead jews and attheists( russians ) which is undoubtedly what they
wanted.

>|>
>|> Sorry, this is pure nonsense.  Hitler's actions were not only in
>|> direct violation of Jesus's teaching but also against the law and
>|> norms of the RC Church in his day as well as today.
>

  What law explicitly prohibits this?  I am curious.  It didn't
seem to work against the crusades, the inquisition, etc, etc.

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
From: ted@eslvcr.wimsey.bc.ca (Ted Powell)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Entropy Limited, Vancouver Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 03:41:29 GMT

In article <eharbin.725572840@convex.convex.com> eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin) writes:
>In <1992Dec28.192307.14583@walter.bellcore.com> kenl@origami.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ken Lehner) writes:
>
>>In article <eharbin.725547983@convex.convex.com>, eharbin@convex.com (Edward Harbin) writes:
>>|> 
>>|> On the other hand, in what non-Christian country would you choose to live?
[...]
>I have the highest regard for the cultural and ethical attainments of
>other religions.

Do I sense a bit of back-pedalling here?  :-)

-- 
ted@eslvcr.wimsey.bc.ca   {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!eslvcr!ted   (Ted Powell)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic
From: wsadjw@rwc.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Homeopathy
Date: 26 Dec 92 13:28:32 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1hcq81INN6f1@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>I feel that I have experienced a positive result from a homeopathic
>remedy, which is completely without any side effects and doesn't have
>to be taken long term. In fact, I took a single high dose 3 or 4 weeks
>ago and that was that.
>
>I think what you're not hearing is that I'm searching for a way to not 
>have to be an asthmatic the rest of my life. I may have found what
>I'm looking for.

Which asthmatic doesn't share your desires?  But "I've experienced" and
"I feel" is not convincing.  The standard way of checking the condition
of a person with CARA (Chronic Aspecific Respiratory Affliction) is a
breath test.  That is: a test that checks (1) the maximum expired volume
(2) the 1-second value (= the amount of expired volume during the first
second of forced expiration after an inhalation as deep as possible) and
then the same values after taking a standardised amount of a broncho-dilator.

These values give an indication that is less subjective of the amount of
obstruction a person's lungs give to the flow of breath.  From experience
I know that one may *feel* "OK" when the 1-second value is way below what
it should be.  You can get cheap "peak flow meters" that can give a rough
indication of the maximum speed you can expel air with.  With the aid of
these you can get also an idea of the state of your lungs that is a little
less subjective. 

And remember: a neglected asthmatic condition can cause irreversable
damage.  How's that for a side effect?  

While I'm at it, I might mention another side effect of homeopathic
treatment from an anecdote a physician told me.  One of his patients
had consulted a very well known Dutch homeopath. The hmp had advised
the patient to stop taking his asthma medication.  The result was that
some time later the patient got a very severe asthma attack. In the 
evening (you know, that's when asthma attacks often hit you).  The hmp
was called.  This hmp didn't think about visiting a seriously ill patient
at an inconvenient hour, and said in the telephone words to the effect:
very good, this is the initial aggravation. Then the old family doctor
was called. He did come, and arranged to have the patient sent immediately
to the hospital. The patient survived... 
Another quack (naturopath or homeopath, I forgot) advised a diabetic to
stop taking her insulin.  When she gradually slipped into coma, he was
there, no doubt holding her hand, until she died.  Afterwards he was
sentenced to a prison term.  Moral: conventional medicine has side effects,
but don't forget the not-so-rare side effects of alternative methods: they
may kill you.

JWN
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:35:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1649@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:

[deletion]

>It is my understanding that one *can* develope a tolerance ('immunity') to
>arsenic over time by taking small, gradually increasing doses.

>Of course this must be done *before* the fact, not afterwards as a cure.
>Also, it involves *measurable* doses, increased over time to normally toxic
>levels - quite different than the operation of homeopathic remedies.

>(Actually, I suspect that this is *not* an immune type response, just an increased
>tolerance for the substance).

>-- 
>sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
>  or
>Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com

  It's my understanding that increased cyanide tolerance, rather
than being an immune response, is the result of increased production 
of (liver?) enzymes which detoxify heavy metals, stimulated by the
earlier doses.  This of course does not in any way support the 
ludicrous homeopathic therapy model.


-- 
Carl Fink          carlf@panix.com, C.FINK4(GEnie), or CF427620I@LIUVAX.BITNET
  "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
  inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter
  the state of facts and evidence"     --      John Adams
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic,talk.religion.misc
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Grey's Anatomy
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 23 Dec 92  15:55:36

From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
ID: 1992Nov23.181003.18637@netcom.com
 
RS> "The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
RS> child-eating varmints!
 
And they park in the Handicapped spaces at the malls!
 
 
RS> Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
RS> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when
RS> authorized!
RS> 
RS> "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
RS> Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
RS> broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
RS> where it will end."
RS> - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"

--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.messianic