HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Garum
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:15:11 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

My last Brill catalogue tells me that there's a new book on this subject
R.I.Curtis, *Garum and Salsamenta*. The blurb implies the first part is
an analysis of what garum actually was - ISBN 90 04 09423 7 price in us
dollars is 63.00.

Apart from that there's a long book in Frence by Ponsich and Tarradell
simply entitled *Garum*, and an article by Etienne (also in French) in
the journal *Latomus* for 1970.

By the way do you know the story in Aelian about the Octopus which used
to come and steal this sauce because it liked it so much?

Andy Fear, cla04@uk.ac.keele
From: jbutterf@mal-s1.gatech.edu (Jill Butterfield)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:59:22 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Res. Inst., Modeling & Analysis Lab

In article <-6pm05_.greg@netcom.com> greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:
>Anyone good a good formula for the above?
> 
>Greg

I'm pretty sure that "The Little House Cookbook" (don't have publishing
info here with me) has a recipe for hard-tack in it. This cookbook
(which is currently available in most bookstores) has recipes for
foods described in the Laura Ingalls Wilder books. I'm not sure
how authentic all the recipes are, but it is an interesting book.

jib
-- 
Jill Butterfield, Research Scientist       EMAIL: jbutterf@mal-s1.gatech.edu
Georgia Institute of Technology, GTRI Modeling and Analysis Lab
"Happiness is excitement that has found a settling down place..."
-E.L. Konigsburg, _From the Mixed-up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler_
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: WELCOME + CHARTER
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:30:01 GMT
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <1992Jul30.152044.4627@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams) writes:
>        Historic use of herbs both for food and for medicine.
>                Was there any basis for aunt Em's remedies?
>                etc.
> 
How about the folklore, too?  I'm curious what people have heard about the
emotional effects of spices.  For example, I heard somewhere that cinnamon is
supposed to be a 'mood elevator,' making one 'chipper.'  So, between the herbs
and spices, we should all be able to have a better day, right?
From: v128juxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SCHUYJUANNAH)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Tofu
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:48:00 GMT
Organization: SUNY@Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


I was wondering.....what is the origin of the so-call'd health food 'tofu'?
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Answers to miscellaneous queries (second try to send)]
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 06:18:42 GMT


    Pre-1600 Polish

"Does anyone have any knowledge of Polish food, pre 1600?" (Andrew)

I do not know of any pre 1600 Polish cookbooks. There is a Hungarian
17th century cookbook, and I have heard of another c. 1400, although
I do not know if it has ever been published. There are German
cookbooks from the 15th (maybe 14th) c. A recent article in PPC
asserted that there are no early Russian cookbooks (I think non- pre
18th c.)

That covers the area around Poland; sorry I can't provide any more
help.

         Chinese

Frederick J. Simoons, Food in China,CRC Press, Boca Raton 1991, is a
good scholarly discussion of the history, but I do not think it has
any 14th century recipes. I have a few early Chinese recipes from odd
places, but know of no early cookbooks in English (or Chinese, but
they probably exist).

          Coffee

A good source for information is Hattox, Ralph S., Coffee and
Coffeehouses, The Origins of a Social Beverage in the Medieval Near
East, University of Washington Press, Seattle, 1985. In answer to
Shannon's question, Coffee went into use in the Islamic world in the
mid 15th century (it had been used in Abyssinia before that), and in
Europe in the early seventeenth.

         Early Sweets with honey

Medieval Islamic cookbooks have lots of sweets using honey. Ibn
Mubarrad has a version of Hulwa rather like divinity which can be
made with sugar, honey, or dibs (date syrup). The honey version is
rather sticky, at least as I make it. The anonymous Andalusian
cookbook (which is in the new edition of Volume II of my cookbook
collection, which I should be selling at Pennsic) has lots of honey
things as I recall.

         Potatoes

Adam Smith, writing in the 18th century, has some calculations on how
much land it takes to feed a person. The figure he gives for potatoes
is substantially lower than for grain. So apparently one advantage
was high yield per acre. Crosby, Alfred W. Jr., in The Columbian
Exchange: Biological and Cultural Consequences of 1492, Greenwood
Publishing, Westport CT, 1972, argues that one advantage of the New
World foods was that they had different requirements than the
existing old world ones, so they could be grown in places badly
suited for the old world crops.

David Friedman
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Coffee
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:16:14 GMT
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <92Jul30.481@infon.jhu.edu>, croberts@infon.jhu.edu (Chris Roberts) writes:
>Would you beleive that a debate raged for
>several years on whether coffee was a pagan drink
>fit only for muslims, or if Christians could lawfully drink it?
>The pope ( I forget which pope)  finally accepted an appeal, tasted it, and
>pronounced it "truly a Christian drink" (!!)
>Will try to dig up reference.

So, then, thinking logically (if that's possible at this hour), the Mormons
rejected it because the Pope approved it?
From: evie@rodan.UU.NET (Evie Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Ha!
Date: 29 Jul 1992 14:30:55 -0400
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net

In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
>Sorry for being a pain, but here it goes....
>
>HA!  HA!   I GOT THE FIRST POST!    I GOT THE FIRST POST!  HA!  HAAA!!!
>
>BD (I'm too embarassed to print my full name...)
>
Hi Brian...I'm new to all of this and since you seem to have a good
sense of humor, maybe you can help me out a little bit and tell me
what this group is about!

Evie

>-- 
>===========================================================================
>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>===========================================================================
From: jdurbin@nl.oracle.com (Jason Durbin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Honey cakes
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:34:51 GMT
Organization: Oracle Europe

Hi:

Sounds like your describing what my Lebanese relatives made on
special occasions. I doubt if there are too many recorded pre-
1600 recipes for this.

The desert is made (I don't have an exact recipe - I just wing it)
using filo dough layered using lotsa butter with a mixture of
crushed walnuts, brown sugar, allspice and cinnamon. After baking
to a golden brown, sprinkle with honey (or drench as some are
wont to do) and (yechh, but traditional -- rose water -- makes it
too much like eating perfume for me).

You could look it up in any good Lebanese cookbook. The food in
general is excellent.

Jason
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough)
Subject: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 20:42:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Anyone good a good formula for the above?
 
Greg
From: ccaaaxd@ucl.ac.uk (Alan Deacon)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Hawfiskur (not sure how it's spelled, and was Re: Garam)
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:48:17 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki) writes:

>Pete Vincent writes:

>>                                  It's a northwest coast native
>> delicacy, and I swear it's the truth. You take the heads off
>> all the fish you catch, salmon, cod, trout, whatever; and put
>> them in a bucket. You want a few pounds worth. Then you bury
>> it in the back yard for a couple of weeks (preferably middle
>> of summer). Then you dig it up, and enjoy! Sounds even better
>> than the pygmies favourite, fermented elephant entrails!
>>      It had a semi-pronouncible name, but I'm afraid I've
>>  forgotten it.

>This sounds like a slightly less gruesome version of hawfiskur (that's how
>it's pronounced, I have no idea how to spell it), an Icelandic... ah...
>food. Not a delicacy. ;) You catch a trout (maybe a cod, clean it, wrap it
>in cabbage leaves, bury it in the ground for six months (preferably in the
>permafrost), and then dig it up, clean it off, cut it into *very* small
>chunks, and eat it. It's incredibly good for you, and it tastes (and
>SMELLS) truly horrific. Normally, it's eaten accompanied by some pretty
>strong alcohol...

I didn't actually try it while I was over there but the story I had was
that it was shark that was buried for twelve months, and that it should
be soaked in urine as well. Was someone having me on, or was the urine
to break down the fish in some way.

>BTW, I think I've already recognized a couple people from rec.org.sca on
>here... I suspect *quite* a few of the pre-1600 recipes are going to
>SCAdians...

Aint nobody here but us chickens.
-- 
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
--
	Alan Deacon
	Central Computing Service		Email: a.deacon@ucl.ac.uk
	University College London		Tel: +44 71-380 7359
	Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT		Fax: +44 71-388 5406
From: roy_wells@qm.vitalink.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Sea-biscuit/hard-tack
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:11:33 GMT
Reply-To: <roy_wells@qm.vitalink.com> (<roy_wells@qm.vitalink.com>)
Organization: Never Never Land


 greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) asks:

>Anyone good a good formula for the above?
 
Having eaten my fair share of hardtack at Civil War reenactments, 
I can attest to the fact that there is no such thing as a "good" 
receipe for hardtack.

But I will post an authentic receipe when I find it among my 
1860s era cookbooks.
 

----
"A man who carrys a cat by the tail is getting experience that will always be helpful.  He isn't likely to grow dim or doubtful.  Chances are, he isn't likely to carry the cat that way again, either.  But if he wants to, I say let him!" 
--Mark Twain
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Honey cakes
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:33:31 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <8eRk5Mm00iUzQ1wWkP@andrew.cmu.edu> grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller) writes:
>Anyhow, I've recently started looking into historic sweets using honey. 
>I've found several mentions of such things, and one modern recipe for
>what amounts to baclava cookies (honey and walnut filling in a rolled
>bisquit dough), but was wondering if anyone could point me to any
>pre-1600 recipes for such things. 

I have no historical evidence that this is pre-1600, but it has all
the trappings:

	Cakes for the Queen of Heaven

	pound together 2 parts butter, 2 parts fine meal (probably whole
	wheat or unbleached flour), and one part honey.  Take nutmeats,
	chopped small, and mix them in.  A pinch of salt is optional.
	Form into balls, and dimple the middles.  

Personally, I find they are more successful with a bit of baking powder,
and have been known to put preserved strawberries in the dimples.  They
come out like somewhat chewy pecan sandies if you bake them at 375 until
the bottoms turn brownish (depends on your idea of what size a "ball" is!)

I was given this recipe by a "famtrad" pagan from the west country, over
the net.  He said you should work the butter/meal/honey mix a good long
time, but they get chewier (gluten develops!), and if you don't work
them so long they are more shortbreaddy, but develop cracks.  *shrug*



-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: potatoes introduced in europe
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:34:05 GMT

Legend has it that Sir Walter Raleigh grew the first potatoes
in Europe in his garden at Youghal, Co. Waterford, Ireland.
Same legend suggests he smoke the first tobacco in Europe
while waiting for the spuds to grow...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: Hawfiskur (not sure how it's spelled, and was Re: Garam)
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:38:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.181520.1405@nstn.ns.ca> GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki) writes:
>Pete Vincent writes:
>
>>                                  It's a northwest coast native
>> delicacy, and I swear it's the truth. You take the heads off
>> all the fish you catch, salmon, cod, trout, whatever; and put
>> them in a bucket. You want a few pounds worth. Then you bury
>> it in the back yard for a couple of weeks (preferably middle
>> of summer). Then you dig it up, and enjoy! Sounds even better
>> than the pygmies favourite, fermented elephant entrails!
>>      It had a semi-pronouncible name, but I'm afraid I've
>>  forgotten it.
>
>This sounds like a slightly less gruesome version of hawfiskur (that's how
>it's pronounced, I have no idea how to spell it), an Icelandic... ah...
>food. Not a delicacy. ;) You catch a trout (maybe a cod, clean it, wrap it
>in cabbage leaves, bury it in the ground for six months (preferably in the
>permafrost), and then dig it up, clean it off, cut it into *very* small
>chunks, and eat it. It's incredibly good for you, and it tastes (and
>SMELLS) truly horrific. Normally, it's eaten accompanied by some pretty
>strong alcohol...

This is much like the Swedish surstroemming, the only canned food that
should be purchased when the can has reached the shape of a sphere.

I cannot vouch for the taste, but for the smell, the afficionados
themselves pinch their nostrils before partaking of the stuff. Much
vodka is also consumed.

Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Lobster food for peasants ( Was: potatoes introduced in europe)
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:09:37 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco

> pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>> alan@dragon.acadiau.ca (Alan McKay) writes:
>>> tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus) writes:

>>>I know in many countries potatoes were looked upon with suspiscion and
>>>it took some doing by the various governments to get people to eat them.  
>>
>>This reminds me of a story I heard that at the turn of the century
>>lobster was regarded as food for peasants.  Can anyone verify this?
>
>I've heard that too.
>
>In Sweden up to the 19th century, a standard contract for maids or
>servants promised that they would not be served salmon more than once
>a day.

In Ireland, at least up until the 1970s when I left,
due to the Roman Catholic Church's prohibition on
eating meat on Fridays, fish and seafood was eaten
reluctantly, and usually overcooked, by most of the
population on Fridays only.  And exotic-looking
creatures like lobsters and monkfish were viewed with
deep suspicion.  The rivers, lakes and seas around
Ireland produce the best fish and seafood in Europe,
and for decades the finest specimens were promptly
shipped off to the tables of lucky diners on the
continent, while Irish heads shook in disbelief at
the peculiar tastes of foreigners.

Fortunately times have changed.  Doyle's Seafood Bar
in Dingle, Co. Kerry, is worth a detour if you're
ever in the neighborhood (try the grilled Black Sole
on the bone -- *historic*! :-))
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Hawfiskur (not sure how it's spelled, and was Re: Garam)
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:15:56 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Jul30.181520.1405@nstn.ns.ca> GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki) writes:
>Pete Vincent writes:
>
>>                                  It's a northwest coast native
>> delicacy, and I swear it's the truth. You take the heads off
>> all the fish you catch, salmon, cod, trout, whatever; and put
>> them in a bucket. You want a few pounds worth. Then you bury
>> it in the back yard for a couple of weeks (preferably middle
>> of summer). Then you dig it up, and enjoy! Sounds even better
>> than the pygmies favourite, fermented elephant entrails!
>>      It had a semi-pronouncible name, but I'm afraid I've
>>  forgotten it.
>
>This sounds like a slightly less gruesome version of hawfiskur (that's how
>it's pronounced, I have no idea how to spell it), an Icelandic... ah...
>food. Not a delicacy. ;) You catch a trout (maybe a cod, clean it, wrap it
>in cabbage leaves, bury it in the ground for six months (preferably in the
>permafrost), and then dig it up, clean it off, cut it into *very* small
>chunks, and eat it. It's incredibly good for you, and it tastes (and
>SMELLS) truly horrific. Normally, it's eaten accompanied by some pretty
>strong alcohol...

	Considering my approximation of the Icelandic character "edh/eth",
which is the one which looks like the crossed "d" as "dh", what you call
hawfiskur is spelled "hardhfiskur" (in Modern Icelandic).
	I had not heard your method of preparation before, though it does
sound truly horrific.  I am more familiar with hardhfiskur as a form of
dried cod.  The cod is placed on drying racks by the shore, for quite some
period of time (unfortunately, I forget how long).  It becomes quite dry
and stiff/chewy (rather like ... well ... old boots).  It still still quite
common in Iceland and is perfectly edible when smeared with some butter
(though hardly a delicacy).
	I also once had a form of Icelandic fish which was not graced with
a name, as far as I know, but it had once been a codfish.  It had been
nailed to the mast of a trawler for a lengthy period, and was then sort of
torn up and eaten.  It was pretty frightening.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Ha!
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:23:04 GMT
Reply-To: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <1992Jul30.140415.26334@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, clc5q@hemlock.cs.Virginia.EDU (Clark L. Coleman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul29.172702.14056@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) writes:
>>===========================================================================
>>| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
>>| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
>>===========================================================================
>
>And bad spelling comes from spelling "judgment" as "judgement" ......
>
Both are correct, according to Merriam Webster.

>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: jmd9888@zeus.tamu.edu (DURHAM, JAMES MICHAEL)
Subject: Re: definition of 'historic food'
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:35:00 GMT

In article <0095E5A4.65D76560@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...
>I'm curious, too.  Is this group to be a potential recipe exchange as well as a
>forum for discussion?  Or should recipes stay in rec.food.cooking?

As a reader of both groups I would hope that you would post any recipes that 
you think are good recipes, if they are say pre-industrial revolution, to this 
group and any others to r.f.c.  But then if you feel like wanting to cross-post
that would be good also.  Just my $.02 worth.

Michael
From: feland@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Andrew Feland)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: <none>
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:37:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Jul30.123747.14317
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


Email is welcome, by the way.
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: definition of 'historic food'
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 31 Jul 92 10:14:29 CDT

In article 65D76560@Msu.oscs.montana.edu, oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu () writes:
|In article <1992Jul30.194019.13746@bnr.ca>, harlan@crchh347.bnr.ca (Bruce Harlan) writes:
|.. Sounds like an interesting
|>group if we can decide what we're talking about. I have some recipes for some
|>odd things that I have not yet tried (raccoon, possum, etc.). i would be happy	
|>to share if there is an interest. 		
|> 
|I'm curious, too.  Is this group to be a potential recipe exchange as well as a
|forum for discussion?  Or should recipes stay in rec.food.cooking?


The charter does include:

	Research and discussion of old recipes 
		and ways to replicate them today.


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Ha!
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:27:02 GMT

Sorry for being a pain, but here it goes....

HA!  HA!   I GOT THE FIRST POST!    I GOT THE FIRST POST!  HA!  HAAA!!!

BD (I'm too embarassed to print my full name...)

-- 
===========================================================================
| Brian Dixon              | "Good judgement comes from experience...     |
| dixon@spot.colorado.edu  |    and experience comes from bad judgement!" |
===========================================================================
Organization: Comp & Comm - Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:36:40 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Honey cakes

Wow, an almost virgin newsgroup on which to ask questions!  Be still my
beating heart !!:-):-):-)

Anyhow, I've recently started looking into historic sweets using honey. 
I've found several mentions of such things, and one modern recipe for
what amounts to baclava cookies (honey and walnut filling in a rolled
bisquit dough), but was wondering if anyone could point me to any
pre-1600 recipes for such things. 

Thanks!

toodles, gretchen

(grm@andrew.cmu.edu)