From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re:  Men are Scum etc.
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:34:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <memo.531723@cix.compulink.co.uk> shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo
Smith) writes:
>kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes..
>
     [stuff deleted]

>Male domination is a phrase used by feminists. Also others. It has
>some degree of usefulness in investigating sexual stereotypes and
>role playing. It is also used by many people as a weak excuse for
>feeling fucked over.

I agree. I have been bothered for some time by the various "cultures
of victimization" which have been cropping up in our society. Blacks,
women, Asians, etc. (if you follow the real world news you'll notice that 
even the fundies and the anti-abortion crowd use this tactic too). I'M
NOT SAYING THAT THESE VARIOUS GROUPS HAVEN'T BEEN OPPRESSED/REPRESSED
FOR GENERATIONS, just that the current response to it is not the
best approach for fighting that oppression/repression. Look, what's
the basic psychology of oppression? It's the projection of a negative
self-image onto the "oppressed". Oppression at the psychological level ends
when the oppressed stop buying into the image that the oppressor
is trying to give them. Anger is a natural response to oppression, but
as Gandhi and King showed, not the most useful. What is needed is both
a means of personal empowerment and some kind of peaceful activism/
involvement in creating change. Changing society isn't easy, particularly
this one in which a substantial majority is anesthetized by the mind-
poison of an idiotic popular culture delivered by the sinister medium
of television. But violence, while it may be more immediately satisfying,
isn't the key to a long-term transformation of society into something
that would be more palatable to the readers of this group. The only
effect of violence is increased polarization which leads to more
violence, and the cycle goes on in a positive feedback loop. What's
needed is for people to *get together* and act in ways to change 
society. I think this society is on the brink of a major paradigmatic
shift. It could go either way - clearly the far right in this country
has been pursuing policies to create conditions favorable to the 
establishment of a right-wing dictatorship in this country. But at the
same time, lots of real positive grass-roots stuff is happening. 
Goddess, I've come a ways from my original topic, haven't I?

>>I heard Janis basically saying she felt marginalized by men's concept
>>of the perfect fuck, and their dehumanization of women into the role
>>of a sexual toy.
>
>What perfect fuck? What sexual toy? Best sex comes when man and
>woman are CONTENT with the roles they find themselves playing. If
>people want to be toys for each other fine! if not fine! its not
>compulsory. If people don't want to play 'me Tarzan You Jane' stuff
>then don't go and see the movies, and play some other bed games.  If
>enough people get as bored with porn movies (I saw ONE ONCE and it
>was BORING) as I am, then they won't get made. I just object to the
>blatant generalization implied in the statement:-
>
>"Mens concept of the perfect fuck and their dehumanization of women
>into the role of a sexual toy"
>
>Its a vicious circle - but the kind of diatribe that you are engaged
>in reinforces it - it doesn't break it. Only the genuine honest
>attempts by both sexes to understand the reality of each other can
>make for a more mature and balanced outlook.  

Hear, hear! Communication between the sexes is so important and so
difficult. Why is there so much trouble with it?

1) While this may not be a PC opinion, there really are many
   differences in how men and women think and view the world, and
   particularly in how they approach relationships. There have been
   a number of recent illuminating books on this topic which
   deserve to be more widely read. The classic statement about
   male/female differences on relationships: "Women give sex to
   get love, men give love to get sex", while surely exaggerated,
   must have some grain of truth to it. Whether this truth is
   due to inborn genetic differences or due to something imposed
   by a distorted society is another question.

2) We live in a society, really the first in the world, where change
   is seen as *positive*. All traditional cultures have hated and
   feared change. Another characteristic of traditional societies is
   that gender roles are *very clearly defined*. This doesn't always
   mean that men are considered superior or that women are considered
   superior in these societies (I'm talking hunter/gatherer and/or
   neolithic now) but that the tasks that they perform, both in
   subsistence activity AND in the spiritual life of the community,
   are different. Everything is changing so rapidly in our culture,
   not just technology but also male/female roles. This is both
   threatening and confusing to many people, because they feel that
   they don't know what the rules are anymore. It's clear that one of
   the truly negative changes in our society has been the loss of a
   sense of community, and this has led to a sense of alienation and
   hopelessness among many people, and to the culture of violence
   against all who are "different", and against women in particular.
   What's the solution? Obviously better education is a key, but also
   reintegrating our society into a real community. I don't know if
   this can be done.

>Is that what Janis is
>trying to achieve? a better understanding of men and women?
>
>Or does she just want to find someone to blame for how she feels?
>
>Leo
>

The former, I hope. I see a lot of anger in Janis' posts. As I said
before, anger is a very natural response to oppression (which I'm not
denying exists), but anger is also a dangerous and basically negative
emotion. It basically doesn't help anything, *particularly if you
buy into it*. Then it just feeds on itself and grows and takes over.
By "buying into it", I mean that you identify with your anger and
so develop the "*I* am angry" mindset. There's a very powerful anger
meditation in a book which I have at home. If there's any interest
I'll post it tomorrow.

Janis, none of what I have said here is meant as a personal "attack"
on you. I hope it doesn't come across that way. Since I am not female,
I will admit that I can't know what it is like to have to put up with
the things that women have been putting up with for far too long, and 
I'd likely be very pissed about them too. I do get angry when reading
about sexual violence, particularly when directed against children
(for my money, child molestation is the ONE crime deserving of the
death penalty).  I just feel that it's very important that *you* be
the one controlling and channeling your anger into useful energy, 
rather than letting your anger control you.  I've been enjoying your 
posts for months, and wish you only happiness. Don't give up the fight,
you're a powerful force against the status quo. Blessings and best
wishes!

                          *********************************
Richard Darsie            *                               *
(Tuneweaver)              *     The one who dies with     *
darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu   *   the most instruments WINS!  *
                          *                               *
                          *********************************
Newsgroups: alt.pagan