HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loaded Clips
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:15:43 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <tmi.718437304@well.sf.ca.us> tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler) writes:
:In <9209300801.aa11961@sco1.qdeck.com> burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
:
:#In article <1992Sep25.015920.1974@odin.corp.sgi.com> barnes@cowboys.esd.sgi.com (Jim Barnes) writes:
:	Not true! The law in California is very clear and well-settled
:on this point, despite the fact that numerous "experts" and cops don't
:know what is legal and what is not.
:
:	PC 12031 says, in plain English: no ammunition can be in or
:attached in any manner to the firearm. Period. A loaded magazine (or,
:for that matter, ammunition in any form) that is _not_ in or attached to 
:the gun can be in the same container as the gun without any violation
:of the law.
:
:	Urban myth notwithstanding, if someone is arrested for
:violating PC 12031 (having a loaded gun in a public place without a
:CCW) because he or she had an empty gun in the same container as one
:or more loaded magazines or ammunition in any other form, and no other
:facts exist to complicate the matter, dismissal of charges should be
:rather routine and not difficult.
:-- 
:            Peter Alan Kasler                     Fax: 707-939-8684


Not according to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office and
West's ANNOTATED California Penal Code.  The LA DA's office referred
me to the Wests for complete listing of applicatble court
interperatation of the Penal Code 12031.  Both the DA and West's agree
that a loaded magazine is the same as a loaded weapon.  Indeed, one
court ruled that loose ammunition in the same container was equivalent
to loaded weapon.  Another decision ruled that if the ammunition was
still in the factory's original box, then it was not a loaded firearm.
In the case of court decisions, you pays your money and takes your
chances.


Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: dd908821@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Douglas Deden)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun Solvent Substitutes
Date: 17 Oct 92 00:15:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: yuma.9210162041.AA70267
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

In article <lairdb.719094447@crash.cts.com>, lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
|> In <1992Oct13.205358.959@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:

[stuff deleted]

|> #OK - here's the contents: 1,1,1 trichloroethane, perchloroethylene and
|> #carbon dioxide (likely as a propellant).  Nope, nothing flammable and
|> #identical to most of the gun cleaning sprays.
|> 
|> Not sure what the perchloroethylene does, but 111-tce is an excellent 
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[stuff deleted]
|> 
|> -- 
|> Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
|> Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!


Perchloroethylene (commonly called perc) is a solvent, used in nearly all dry
cleaning machines.  It basically does the same thing as the 111-tce (at least as
far as gun cleaning is concerned).  The EPA recently changed it's classification
from a 'possible' carcinogen to a 'probable' carcinogen, so don't drink it. 
(Remember, at one time, peanut butter was classified as a possible carcinogen.)

For the curious, I may be able to dig up an MSDS on perc.  I suppose someone (am
I volunteering myself?) could compile a set of MSDS's for all sorts of
gun-related products.  Solvents, lubricants, (would powder or primers have
MSDS's?)...


Doug Deden
Civil Engineering Department
Colorado State University
dd908821@longs.lance.colostate.edu
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Matt Helms
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:15:45 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <9210112005.AA01553@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> jimfost@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Jim Foster) writes:
# ...
##The Tactical Edge
##Surviving High-Risk Patrol
##Charles Remsberg
#
##which is by the author of "STREET SURVIVAL: Tactics for
              ^^^an
##Armed Encounters"  ...
#
#Could you post price/availability of these books? They sound quite interesting.

  I have been told that the publisher intends these for police
purchase only.  They may be available from the Second Amendment
Foundation, and may be found in police supply stores.  My guess
is that they should sell for under $40 each.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: H&K p7M8
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:58:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Oct15.135756.22694
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <gerIGem00WB6IogH5e@andrew.cmu.edu>, sr2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Malcolm Redmore) writes:

|> 
|> Of course, my friend just got a sig, so I now have "capacity-envy" :)...
|> Seriously speaking, will that be a problem for taking LFI-1, or doing
|> any sort of comp. shooting with it?

Nothing you will do at LFI-1 requires a high-capacity gun.  In fact, if
your friend with the SIG comes, he will be required to load only 6
rounds in each magazine.  All the firing stages mandate the "shoot 6;
reload" routine.

So, regardless of how many rounds your magazines hold, you will need
3 of them for LFI-1 (also Stressfire).  Likewise, revolver shooters
will require 3 speedloaders.  People bringing 5-shot revolvers shoot
the same number of reloads, but fewer total shots.  In other words,
no matter what you bring, you will perform the same number of reloads
at each stage, with a maximum of 6 shots before each reload.  Scores
are computed as a percentage of shots fired, so 5-shot revolvers can
compete equally.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: laird@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Navy Seals and Barett Sights (Movie Fantasy)
Date: 15 Oct 92 12:16:07 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey) writes:


##I also seem to remember them showing some sort of "sight" that also showed
##"images" of men as they moved behind a wall.

#	Amazing! What Hollywood can do for the laws of physics.

Yup, this one must be true - I saw it in Robocop _and_ Navy Seals.

#	This magic helicopter in the movie was made with matt black
#paint and paper towel rolls. 

Hmm...I saw two of these (flyable) craft for sale in Trade-A-Plane
a few years back.

--kyler

(No, I'm not quite sure how this fits into rec.guns.)
From: bluemoon!jamaass@gator.rn.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Reloading advice needed
Date: 11 Oct 92 06:01:46 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

mailrus!gatech!fisher.eedsp.gatech.edu!tucker@uunet.UU.NET (Jeff Tucker) writes:

# I had some questions about reloading, and thought I'd turn to the
# net for advice.
# 
# Right now, I shoot only one caliber, 40 S&W, and that isn't likely
# to change very soon.  I'm interested in the economic aspects of
# reloading small quantities for my own use.
# 
# How long does it take to offset the initial costs of reloading 
# equipment?  I'm talking about minimalist stuff, probably adequate
# for 100-200 rounds a month, max.  I'm not a real big shooter right
# now.  (But, if it weren't so expensive I might get that way.)
# 
# I'd be interested in hearing what the startup costs are for equipment
# like a press and measures or whatever, and also the recurring costs
# for things like primers and powder.  I'm interested only in short range
# target work and nothing competitive right now, so I don't need the
# most expensive of anything.  Just the plinker stuff.
# 

I started with a major investment (around $1400 in first few months),
including Dillon Press, electronic scale, six reloading manuals,
nine books about reloading, a subscription to _Handloader_ magazine,
a fire extinguisher and smoke detector, materials for a reloading
bench, and everything else required for loading 9mm and .45ACP.

You can start reloading for less than $300 and produce safe, quality 
rounds. Resist the advice of thos who will try to steer you
towards the handheld presses that are super cheap. Get a quality
single-stage press or quality progressive (DILLON, Square Deal B
or RL-550B). Get a good scale. Get a few reloading manuals. Get
stainless dial calipers. Get a kinetic bullet-pulling hammer. 
READ ABOUT HOW TO RELOAD.

How long does it take to pay off the initial investment? I can't
find my cost analysis right now, but my initial (9mm only) step
paid of itself in 3600 rounds, which I estimated to be my annual
usage. I've since added .45ACP, and I've loaded and consumed over
8000 rounds of that caliber since April. Every round I fire saves
1/3 to 1/2 the cost of commercial loads.

I haven't put the numbers to paper recently, but I would hazard 
a conservative guess that I've paid off the press and all the
accessories something like twice now, and I've only
been reloading for a year.

Have I saved money: NO. I have, instead, been able to shoot 
** A LOT MORE **. I've learned a lot about crafting loads to the 
job, and had a great time learning about firearms.

By all means, start reloading. Buy a quality press, and plan on
keeping it for a long time. I've just ordered my second progressive
press (first is Dillon RL-550B, new one is Dillon XL-650), and I'll
keep both!

Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How to change a Makarov pistol sight
Date: 14 Oct 92 03:16:20 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


Hi,

	I recently purchased a Norinco Makarov.  The thing came with a
really worthless adjustable rear sight, I assume because of some stupid
BATF regulation.  To Norinco's credit, they also included a non-adjust-
able sight with a higher profile and a larger notch.  I would like to
change sights before I go zero the thing (when I pick up my 1050 rounds
of Makarov ammo this weekend).  The sights are mounted in a dove-tailed
slot.  Question is, what is the recommended method of changing this type
of sight (and adjusting for center left and right - drifting it in the
slot I assume)?  Do I need an sort of specialized tools?

	By the way, this gun seems to be an excellent deal.  I am a
student on a tight budget, and I got this pistol for $157 including
tax, brand new.  It came with two eight round magazines, the spare
sight, and a little jewelers screwdriver to adjust the worthless
sight with.  It seems well made, not some Satuday night special piece
of junk.  The Chinese version is all steel, but there are supposed to
be some East German ones with alloy frames or slides or something and
slightly better fit and finish for around $190.  The gun is about
the same size as a Walther PP.  The Makarov is the standard issue
military pistol for the Chinese and the Russians and their allies
(ie Hungary, East Germany, Poland, etc).

	The only major drawback seems to be that ammo is not univer-
sally available.  If fires a 9x18 ammo that is somewhat out of the
ordinary.  This cartridge is somewhere between the .380 (9x17) and
9x19 NATO in power.  The bullets are actually 9.27 mm in diameter, so
using regular 9mm is out of the question with out a lot of cutting down
and resizing, which would assume I reloaded anyway.  I have found a good
source, however.  Keng's Specialty Importers (or something like that)
in Atlanta (local to me!) has cases of the stuff.  Full cases of 2100
rounds are $254.50 and half cases of 1050 rounds are $154.50.  The ammo
is Norinco manufactured in 1989, and it is FMJ with a bullet weight of
somewhere between 90 and 95 grains (I forget the exact number).  The
number is in the book, so call information (area code 404).

	One final note: it is a great match for my other bargain basement
special, a Norinco SKS.  I got that for $137.00 with tax, with sling,
bandolier and cleaning kit.  I have put about 1000 rounds of FMJ and SP
ammo through it without a single malfunction.  It is great fun to shoot,
and the ammo is cheap and plentiful.  I think these two may be the best
$300.00 home defense rifle/pistol combo available.  Any challengers?

John Cronin
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm: Which *not* to buy?
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:42:03 GMT
Organization: Messina Software

danbri@danbri.Auto-trol.COM (Dan Brigham) writes:

#In article <1992Sep28.221436.11199@cs.rose-hulman.edu> you wrote:
#: [asking for advice on 9mm hanguns]
#: "Hi Power" clone
#: CZ-75 clone

#Why get a clone when you can get the real thing? The real thing 
#is what built the reputation.

Just to play the devil's advocate here for a while: Maybe.  However, 
I played with the lastest Browning High Power, and they all seem to
have the nice "action shooting" safety lever, large, clicky, and
light.  Well, it may be great for the mortal dangers awaiting one from
the hands of paper targets at a local range, but I for one much prefer
the small, non-clicky, smooth to unlock and heavy to lock safety on
the Argentinian clone of the High Power.  It seems designed for
real-life use.  Also, it shoots great and costs *much* less than
original.  I would be happy to learn of any negative experiences
with it because I intent to buy it, so any factual warning will be
appreciated. 

t.
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting left-hand w/right-hand eject
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:23:26 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

samsung!ulowell!harvard!horus!reedp@uunet.UU.NET (Paul Reed) writes:

#If you have any good or bad experiences or recommendations about shooting
#left-handed with a right-hand eject semi-auto shotgun, please tell me about
#them!  Thanks,

The only problem I have had was with an AR15-A1 which consistently ejected
brass into my right cheek.  The newer AR15s (sporters and A2's have corrected
this problem).  

My experience is limited to AR15s, HKs (91,94), Uzis, Ruger 10/22s, Rem 1100s. 
However, I have never had a case failure in these weapons so I can't comment
on that problem.  

BTW, any lefties learned to shoot their HKs right handed to make use of that
nifty combat sling they sell?  From the bench, I always shoot left handed.
In the field, I always carry my 91 right handed.  Good thing I haven't seen
any bucks this year... I haven't had much practice shooting that way! :-).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG
Eric E. Snyder                            
Department of MCD Biology              ...making feet for childrens' shoes.
University of Colorado, Boulder   
Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347
LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wdavis@bbn.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9x18 ammo
Date: 15 Oct 92 12:16:23 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc.

In article <33A71283C0000C3E@UALR.EDU> lklawson@acs.harding.edu writes:
#In article <1992Oct8.150946.7006@icd.ab.com>, kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D.
Whitehead) writes:
##Can anybody give me the lowdown on what's required to get a CCW
##in Ohio?
##
##Thanks,
##

#P.S.,
#
#   I've been looking for some real ammo for my Makarov.  I recently heard from
#a net-er that the 9x18 Police/Ultra is supposed to work in them except that he
#hadn't seen any real ammo (JHP and such like) in the 9x18 Police/Ultra.  Does
#anybody know if the mythical good ammo exist for this round (FMJ is all that
#I've ever been able to get ahold of and I'm skeptical of it's stopping
#ability).
#
#Thanx,
#-Kirk
There is some cheaper Chinese 9x18 FMJ non-corrosive on the market, haven't
tried
any though.  Interesting note, in a recent SGN someone was selling 380 barrels
for
the Makarov and claimed no problem feeding.  For about $60 it might be
interesting
to try (if I had the extra $).

Bill
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: question on compact guns in 007-james-bond movie
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:23:54 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Oct12.002302.5882@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, by n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio):
# cmk0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHRISTOPHER MARK KULP) writes:
# 
# #Seeing that movie inspired me to consider a buying a small semi-automatic.
# #After examining what was available, I decided on the small Baretta, .22
# #caliber.  It feels and shoots great, and is ideal for carrying (what other gun
# #can you slip right into your pocket).  It has a .25 caliber twin, but I
# #believe that the .22 is fine - after all, why pay extra for an odd and more
# #expensive caliber.  The only thing I changed was to use white enamel on the
# #sights.
# 
# 	I hope you mean the .22 LR version, instead of the .22 Short 
# version.   It's double action, right?
# 
# 	.22 Short is the only caliber on earth weaker than .25 Auto that 
# I am aware of.
#

How 'bout the Lilliputs that some Alistair McClean heroes were
fond of?  I believe they were .17 caliber or smaller.  McClean
always had them aim for the major artery in the hip area.  I
don't remember the proper names for either the artery or area,
might have been femoral...

Come to that, has anyone out there ever used one of these guns?
I think I have seen pictures of them in one gun mag or other. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Navy Seals and Barett Sights (Movie Fantasy)
Date: 11 Oct 92 23:13:22 GMT
Organization: The Hole in the Wall  Hollywood California U.S.A.


In article <9210100144.aa10817@s.s.ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
#Anyone remember the movie that came out a few years back about a couple
#of LA cops who flew this ultra-modern helicopter? I can't think of the name
#right now, 
	Blue Thunder.
#but at the beginning of the movie there is a disclaimer that
#says "the weapons and technology depicted in this film are real and in use
#today" or something to that effect.
	Yes, total fantasy. In use today on the sets of Hollywood
studios.

# At any rate, in the film there was a
#scene that showed the cops eaves-dropping on some "bad guys" inside a building.

	Well yes, we can evesdrop via various ways, but not the way
shown in the movie. Hollywood takes a grain of truth and drops it in a
bucket of B.S.. Several postings in the past about various weapons have
pointed this out. Even the noises of weapons are often wrong.

#I also seem to remember them showing some sort of "sight" that also showed
#"images" of men as they moved behind a wall.

	Amazing! What Hollywood can do for the laws of physics.

#Anyone else remember this movie, or any more details?
#One more thing I remember is that the helicopter also had a "quiet" mode.
#That is, the engine could be put into a "quiet mode".

	Quiet? Yes, it doesn't pump air, yet stays up in the air. What
a breakthrough! How wish this one worked. I wish it everytime another
LAPD chopper turns over my apartment at 1 AM.

	This magic helicopter in the movie was made with matt black
paint and paper towel rolls. Some of the locations were real, the LAPD
chopper port and the LA river. The spot where they evesdropped on the
conversation was the Federal Building (spook central) in Westwood. But
then they were able to fly between downtown LA and the San Fernando
valley (to watch a naked girl in an apt) in just seconds. Yes,
Hollywood never lets common sense and reality get in the way of a
story.

	One of my tenants here does special  effects and weapons for
movies (The Abyss and Terminator 2). He says the important part is how
it looks. He likes making mean looking weapons, he knows they won't
work, alas he fools the public. Yes, he plays with real things that go
bang when he is not at work.
-- 
Julian Macassey, julian@bongo.info.com  N6ARE@WA6FWI.#SOCAL.CA.USA.NA
742 1/2 North Hayworth Avenue Hollywood CA 90046-7142 voice (213) 653-4495
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: reloading .308 Winchester
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:03:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: hydra.71205
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <9210140357.AA07666@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> 
keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
 > ...
 >I have loaded using at least one sample of each of the following
 >brands of brass:  Remington, Winchester, Federal, PMC, Imperial,
 >Dominion, and NATO IVI.  The interesting thing is that only the
 >Remington brass would NOT chamber in my Remington 700 BDL.  
 >What gives?  I don't notice any difference during reloading, but
 >the bolt will not close when I put a round with Remington brass
 >into the chamber.

It's not the Remington brass, it's the rifle those cartridges were
fired from - it had a longer chamber (more headspace).

You may be able to screw the sizing die down farther and set the
shoulder back where it belongs.
-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: voodoo!tomm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Tom Mackey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Model 42 saga: what should I do?
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:41:40 GMT
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA


Early this spring I posted an article where I mentioned a Winchester
Model 42 (.410 pump) shotgun that I inherited from my dad.  This gun
had evidently been put away wet; I found it wrapped in oily rags in
pretty bad condition.  The barrel was rusted, the magazine tube and
receiver were pitted, and even the stock needed attention.  I found
that Simmons Gun Repair in Kansas had done all the vent. ribs for the
Model 42's (and all other Winchester factory VR shotguns, I think) so
I figured that if anybody could restore the factory bluing, they could.
I finally sent the gun to them and received a quote last week.  They
would completely restore the gun for $488.55 plus shipping (lets just
call it $500.00 even).  Ouch.  For that they would hand refinish and
hand blue all the blue pieces, re-jewel the bolt and carrier, and
refinsh the wood pieces with a finsish that they have developed thru
the years -- they claim it is as close to Winchester factory finish
as you can get.  Except for a few pits that they will not be able to
completely remove, it will be a new gun.  Now these guns are pretty
collectable -- one in excellent condition is worth $750 on up to one
which sold nearby for $1000.  Unfortunately, mine will no longer be
original, but is nearly worthless in its present condition.  I would
like to hear opinions as to whether a complete rebuild by a shop that
is essentially a factory 2nd source would restore any of the value.
One thing that may help: I like the gun quite a bit and would plan on
keeping it for many years before I would consider selling it -- say
25 years, at least.  What say you all?  Another $100 would buy me a
neat SIG P225 instead...
-- 
Tom Mackey       (206) 865-6575        tomm@voodoo.boeing.com
Boeing Computer Services         ....uunet!bcstec!voodoo!tomm
M/S 7K-20,     P.O. Box 24346,     Seattle, WA     98124-0346