HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: "Democracy" & "Israel" are Axonyms.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:20:02 GMT
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Keywords: Democracy, Israel, vicious, bloody, killers.

In article <1992Apr11.051323.9152@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>That incident demonstrated to me in a very powerful way both the
>hate prevailing in that area of the world called the middel east,
>and the polarity involved; for years after that, I categorized
>Arabs as "good - like the driver" and "bad - like the guy who
>was sitting next to me". There are bad ones and good ones on

My story:  Two years ago, I was trying to get from the Hebrew University 
campus in Jerusalem to the Mount of Olives, a short walk away, to take 
some scenic photos of the city.  The problem is that this involved 
walking through an Arab neighborhood and everyone advised against it.
I was hoping to hitch a ride in a police car or something and didn't 
really know how to proceed.  There was almost no traffic on this road.

Finally, an empty Mercedes taxi driven by a young Arab fellow arrived
and stopped to offer me his services.  I quickly accepted.  He not 
only drove me to the Mount of Olives, perhaps a 2 minute drive away,
but waited there for me until my motor-driven camera ate up a whole roll 
of film.  He warned me that children throw stones at tourists there;
perhaps his presence there helped me out a bit.  

From there he drove me to the gates of the Old City, where I paid him.
He didn't have any change (and I only had a large bill) but that didn't
bother me.  

In the few minutes that we spent together, he told me about his feelings
about the intifada.  He said that it was very bad, that the violence
only hurts people.  Because he dares to accept Jews as customers, his
windows had been broken many times by the Shebab, the intifada youth
and terrorists-in-training.  A taxi driver in Israel who has to buy a 
new Mercedes windshield every few weeks hardly has a chance of making 
any money, in the end.  After that, I paid attention to Arab taxis and 
noticed that quite a few of them had gouge marks on the hood where large
stones and cinder blocks had hit them.   (Of course, Israeli cars are 
the more cutomary recipients of such projectiles.)  The violence of the
intifada hurts everyone and helps no one.

After he drove away, I realized that I had missed the most important
photo of the day - the Arab taxi driver and his cab.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com    
American-Occupied New York
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.iranian
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Mojahedin Attacks
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:29:17 GMT

In <1992Apr16.152100.28970@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad
Hernlem) writes:

...

>I read in a recent Newsweek
>that some Iranian here in the U.S. is promoting a massive seige on mail,
>phone, fax, and similar facilities in Iran by swamping them with bogus
>messages. There was no association with the Mojahedin mentioned in the
>article but there is a similarity with the embassy attacks in that all
>of this sort of behaviour has an affect on those living in Iran and
>those who need or wish to contact friends or relatives in Iran. This is
>no way to secure support from inside Iran and revenge is not a
>sufficient reason to wage a war, in my opinion. 

I dunno, swamping fax lines seems positively benign compared to bombing
villages and executing people.  Plus, it will generate revenue for the
U.S. phone companies. :-)

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.history
From: dickwin@sequent.com (Dick Winningstad)
Subject: PLO Charter
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 02:56:05 GMT

Does anyone out there have access to the "PLO Charter"?
I hope I have used the right terminology.  What I want is a copy of
the charter or constitution that sets up or organizes the Palestinian
Liberation Organization.
Thanks in advance. I hope I asked the question correctly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dick Winningstad                     Opinions?  What opinions?
                                     I ain't got no stinkin' Opinions!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: LYING BY OMISSION!
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:26:44 GMT

In <1992Apr16.050633.5622@newshost.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
(Brendan McKay) writes:

[Mark Kaufmann]
>>Who do you think has killed omre Palestinians since
>>the beginning of the intifada?  The Israelis or the Arabs themselves?

>The Israelis.  About a factor of two, I think.

No.  According to "Ha'Aretz", 15 April 1992, 1396 Arabs have been
killed in the Intifada, with 655 dying at the hands of other Arabs.
That means 741 killed by Israelis.  So the factor is about 1.13 to 1,
growing smaller.

(Not that this really changes anything, I just like to have accurate info!)

--
David F. Skoll
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: How to post an article from the news media.
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:01:51 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Apr10.073752.3380@midway.uchicago.edu>,
gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
> In article <1992Apr9.145308.28492@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
> >posting. Jerusalem is indeed occupied territory and the majority of the
> >world does not recognize its annexation by Israel; many consider the
> >seizure of the western portion of the city by Israel to be illegal, as
> >well. 
> The seizure of the Western portion of Jerusalem?  What are you talking
> about?  
> Who considers this to be illegal?  
> Are these the same people who consider all of Israel to be illegal?
> Who is saying that the fact that Western Jerusalem is in Israel is
> illegal?  Is the Knesset on land that was seized illegally?  
> 
> Do these people expect Israel to give up WEST Jerusalem in land for
> peace?  Or do they just want Israel to give up all land 'seized illegally'
> which would mean all of Israel.
> 
> >Brad Hernlem 
> 
> Leon Gross
> I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.

I was under the impression that the city of Jerusalem was to be an
international city under the U.N. partition plan. As soon as they had
the opportunity, Israel seized as much of the city as they could get.
Have we forgotten that Israel seized a very large chunk of what was to
be the "Arab" portion of the U.N. partition?

Brad Hernlem
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bjag@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh)
Subject: Re: Death Squads in Occupied Territories
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:45:28 GMT

Danny Keren
>I don't know the current number, but in March the NY Times gave the number
>of Palestinians killed by Palestinians as 54. It is three time more
>than the number of people killed by the IDF in riots

Uri Zakai
>it is a much larger number then the one of palestinians killed by israelis
,
>and if we   add the fact that those who are killed by other palestinians
>are usually weaponless , and are hacked up with axes etc - usually in
>broad day light , you have to wonder how come nobody protest against it.

Since Israel is the governmental authority in the West Bank and Gaza, it is
the Israeli responsibility to prevent the killing of all residents of the
area, whoever the murderers are. It's a shame that Israel's doing its job
so badly.

However, the extra-judicial killing of Palestinians, is not in any way
comparable to the actions of the Israeli military forces. If the killers of
the Palestinians were caught, I presume that Israel would actively
prosecute them (I hope so, anyway; Israel's abdication of its
responsibility to the Palestinianians presumably hasn't gone so far that
they would overlook murder). The Israeli killers (soldiers) of the
Palestinians do so with the full support and authority of the Israeli
government. They are not prosecuted for their actions. This makes the two
situations wholy different.

Hundreds of people kill each other in the inner city of Chicago every year.
It's horrible that happens, but it doesn't make the wrongful death of any
person at the hands of a Chicago policman any less horrendous. The
responsibility for the policmen's actions lies at Chicago's feet in a way
that the deaths in the inner city don't. Am I to blame because my city
neighbors kill each other? No. Am I to blame because the government I help
to elect kills people (though rarely)? Yes.

In the same way, Palestinians cannot be held responsible because some
Palestinians chose to murder each other. Israelis, on the other hand, are
responsible for the actions of the government they elect. 
-- 
Bharathi Jagadeesh/bjag@nwu.edu
Who is that who mumbles in the dark/ who is it that draws his veil across the
stars/ Langston Hughes
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jgoldber@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: "Democracy" & "Israel" are Axonyms (Axonym?? What's an axonym?.
Keywords: Democracy, Israel, vicious, bloody, killers.
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 03:00:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.063104.10861@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (manu) writes:
>In article <Apr.9.22.22.29.1992.3790@paul.rutgers.edu> marwan@paul.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>
>
>1) See the subject.
>
>
>>In 1987 when the Intefada exploded in the occupied territories, there
>>were still some western reporters in the west bank, that was before
>>the Israeli "Democrates" expelled/sensored them so that they would excersise
                           ******************
>>their hatred freely (the term "Free" is often used by Democracy supporters) ...
>>These reporters were able to shoot a true sceen of the intefada and how
>>much hatred is overfilled in the Israeli hearts.
>>
>>The sceen was about two brothers from Nablus (Nablus==Jabal El-Nar==the
>>mountain of fire) running with fear from 7-8 Israeli soldiers who finally
>>captured them ... The reporter was probably hiding on an adjacent hill, so
>>the sceen looked like taken from a distance ... One of the soldiers looked
>>all around him to see that there is nobody seeing him (the stupid did not
>>see the reporter and the camera) and after that the 5 DEVILS started their
>>evil business ... 2 of the Devils held the arab teenager, one pressed him
>>firmly to the ground and the other twisted the boy's arm and extended his
>>elbow behind his back ... Another Devil looked around him and found a huge
>>rock on the ground, he picked it up, and then with all his force, he lifted
>>it high up and slamed it to the poor guys hand ... For those pro-Israelis,
>>I want to say that the devil hit the boy on his Elbow ... GOD ... THE
>>ELBOW ... I sware to god that I felt that stone on my elbow as I was 
>>watching the scene ... The scene was so unpleasent to watch that I could
>>not bear to continue to see it ... I jumped and went streight to my room.
>>
>	1) What did the boy's do before the army did this to him? 
>
>	2) I see that these soldiers represent every Israeli, right?
>	   Just like Hezbollah represents every Muslim, right?
   Manu, you don't need to buy this as an example of how Israel
   hides crimes and is "undemocratic." I first heard about this story
   when I was in the waiting room of FIAT's main garage in Ramat
   Hachayal. I had a fair bit of time to kill while I was waiting for
   my car to get rustproofed, so I read a copy of Yediot Acharanot
   that was lying there. There was a big spread story on the whole
   thing; the soldiers were facing charges.
From: sahle@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Eskinder Sahle)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 8 Apr 92 02:43:09 GMT
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA

In article <1992Apr5.090216.7127@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr3.190515.28427@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>You must love arguing, Ahmed.
>>Jake Livni
>
>Of course he does. All of us do; why else do we play on the net? ;-)
>	-Nora


But Nora: haven't you realized that Jake never argues?  Seriously.
I have yet to see the guy actually engage himself in an argument.
Up to now, the only thing he has been able to provide us with are
sarcastic statements that at times turn nasty in their cheapness.
Not much more.

Ahmed.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bjag@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh)
Subject: Re: Death Squads in Occupied Territories
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:27:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.100056.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.191445.7960@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, bjag@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:
>
>		[......]
>
>> 
>> Israel can't ethically prevent the people from administering their own
>> goernment and then abdicate responsibility to provide for their welfare.
>> Unfortunately, that unethical action appears to exactly what it's done. 
>> 
>> I am simply astonished that Israel actually collects taxes from the people
>> whose land it occupies. 
>
>
>	I ran into an issue of "Israel Shelanu". A small report at the next
>	to last page says [... are mine]:
>
>		"A liver transplant, the fifth, was done this week
>		in Hadasa Ein Kerem in Jerusalem. The recipient is 
>		Ibrahim Salima from Tul Karem, 47. . .
>
>		The operation took about 17 hours. It was carried out
>		under the health insurance program of the civil 
>		administration . . .
>
>	Second thoughts?

No

There's still too much evidence in the other direction (the taking of land
from Palestinians, allocation of water rights and resources, not to mention
the infamous gas mask incident.)

Nevertheless it's nice to hear of something nice being done in the Occupied
Territories by the Israelis. 

The rallying cry of the American revolution ("No taxation without 
representation") is still a sound one. If Israel must occupy
the West Bank and Gaza in order to maintain its military security (not
something I accept) it's only even marginally ethical if certain guidelines
are followed. One of the easiest (because after all, Israel
can't collect much tax revenues from the Palestinians) would be to not
tax those who are not allowed to participate in their own government. 

In other words, as long as Israel finds it necessary to occupy the West
Bank and Gaza, it must treat those areas as a welfare state, where the
resources are administered for the benefit of the people who live there. If
Israel steps beyond these bounds, the occupation can no longer be justified
on security grounds. If the resources are, instead, administered for the
benefit Israelis, the security interests have clearly been replaced with
economic interests and the occupiers (who were seeking only to defend their
safety)  become colonizers and should  be rightfully reviled. Of course this
is a difficult burden on Israel, but it's just the price a country must pay
in order to be allowed to take away he rights of government and self determination from a people. 
-- 
Bharathi Jagadeesh/bjag@nwu.edu
Who is that who mumbles in the dark/ who is it that draws his veil across the
stars/ Langston Hughes
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Iraq combats Iranian sorties, violates pea
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 06:48:24 GMT

In article 9978@ncsu.edu, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>[...lots deleted...]
>
>        He praised the New York city police department's handling Sunday of
>an attack on the Iranian diplomatic missions to the United Nations by
>five intruders armed with knives. As a result of the attacks, he said,
>police have ``enhanced protection of the Iranian ambassador and the
>deputy permanent representative.''
>        Similar attacks occurred in Ottawa and eight Western European
>countries.

And also in Australia, close to where I live.  The Iranian embassy
suffered a lot of damage and several of the embassy staff were injured.
The Iranian government has requested the extradition of the people
responsible.  This is very unlikely to be successful, though if they
are foreign nationals they will probably be deported.  A question
for you all: should they be extradited?

Brendan.
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Arafat's Plane Disappears!
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:49:26 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon


CNN just broke the story that Yasser Arafat's plane has disappeared over 
the Libyan desert.  Updates when I can...

-anwar
-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome!)   School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: 09 Apr 92 20:12 PDT
Subject: ADC CIVIL, HUMAN RIGHTS PANEL
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500202:000:2104
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Apr  9 20:12:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: ADC CIVIL, HUMAN RIGHTS PANEL

/* Written  6:36 pm  Apr  9, 1992 by adcnatl in cdp:mideast.genera */
/* ---------- "ADC CIVIL, HUMAN RIGHTS PANEL" ---------- */

ADC CIVIL, HUMAN RIGHTS PANEL

Echoing this year's Convention theme of "Civil Rights at Home,
Human Rights Abroad," a distinguished group of panelists will
address the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee on Friday,
May 1. Nadine Strossen, President of the American Civil Liberties
Union and Professor of Law at New York Law School, has served on
the board of directors of numerous human rights organizations. Ms.
Strossen will be joined by Dr. Jonathan Fine, founder of
Physicians for Human Rights, Raji Sourani, Director of the Gaza
Center for Rights and Law, and Maryam Elahi, Program Officer of
Amnesty International.

Prior to assuming her responsibilities at Amnesty International,
Ms Elahi, a graduate of The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy,
worked as a staff attorney with The Lawyer's Committee for Human
Rights. She currently focuses on issues concerning Europe, the
Middle East, and North Africa. Dr. Fine founded Physicians for
Human Rights and served as the organization's first director. He
has participated in fifteen different human rights missions around
the world. Nadine Strossen graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard-
Radcliffe and magna cum laude from Harvard Law School. In 1986 she
became one of the first three women to receive the U.S. Jaycees'
"Outstanding Young Women" award. She was elected President of the
ACLU in January, 1991. Raji Sourani, a Palestinian lawyer, helped
found and directs the Gaza Center for Rights and Law, one of the
only human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip.

Their panel will convene at 2:00, Friday, May 1 at the Crystal
Gateway Marriott in Arlington, Virginia.

This is the 12th Annual Convention of the American-Arab Anti-
Discrimination Committee, the nation's largest grassroots Arab-
American organization.  For more information, contact ADC: 4201
Connecticut Ave. NW, Washington, DC, 20008. Tel: (202)244-2990
Peacenet Address: adcnatl

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nsohrabi@athena.mit.edu (Naghmeh Sohrabi)
Subject: human rights
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:57:11 GMT

Hello.

I am doing research on abuse of human rights and torture in the Middle East, and
would appreciate it if anyone on the net. could send me info. (articles,
statistics, references to reports) on this subject.

Also does anyone know whether there are statistics from Palestinian sources, on
the number of Palestinians killed by other Palestinians during the Intifada?

Sincerely,
Naghmeh Sohrabi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jon@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Jonathan Gingerich)
Subject: Re: U.S. Aid To Israel?????
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 17:07:06 GMT


I'm curious about this case too.  Last I heard (about 1/2 a year ago?)
the USG had requested the suspect's extradition from the Occupied Territories
at the request of the Arab Anti Discrimination League, but I haven't heard 
anything more about it.

Jonathan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Jordan is Palestine
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 08:49:00 GMT


In article kubierINN818@male.EBay.Sun.COM, peewee@playhouse.EBay.Sun.COM (Philip H. Stromer) writes:
>The World Almanac says that Jordan is 77% of the former land of
>Palestine.  The Universal Almanac says the same thing.
>
>The pro-Arab readers of this newsgroup dispute this.  Well then,
>why don't you write the editors of these respected almanacs and
>have them correct this in future editions?  My guess is that
>some people already have tried to persuade them to change this,
>but the Arab version of history doesn't match the western version.
>
>So for now, JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.
>	    JORDAN IS PALESTINE.

I think I owe you an apology, PeeWee.  I looked up Johnny Rabbit's
Picture History of the Lands of the Bible and it agreed with you!
Looks like all those snooty academics got it wrong!  1000 pardons.

[Slinks off muttering jordan is palestine, jordan is palestine, ...]

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Feminism Meets Terrorism
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 16:46:46 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.024328.24670@midway.uchicago.edu>,
rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
> In article <1992Apr3.195626.29417@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) writes:
> >In article <1992Apr1.143612.16645@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU
(Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> >>I guess that in Jake's mind women bear
> >>children and children grow up to become terrorists so killing women and
> >>children "is a legitimate preventative measure, or something along those
> >>lines." 
> 
> >You guess wrong, Ali.  Shouldn'a relied on your buddy Ahmed.
> 
> Is there a reason why the two of you seem to regard killing women as
> worse than killing men?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> >Jake Livni
> 
> 	-Nora
> -- 
> Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol yisrael.

The killing of any civilians is equally "bad". I make a distinction
because rarely do I hear of any Palestinian women involved in attacks on
Israeli interests and so when Israel kills Palestinian women one can be
reasonably assured that these were civilians. Remember that Jake and I
were discussing the Israeli attacks on Palestinian refugee camps in
Lebanon. The presence of women and children in these camps underscores
the nature of these camps as refugee camps filled with civilians, not
"terrorists" as Jake presumes. I am soory if you have taken my remarks
to be sexist.

Brad Hernlem
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:10971 soc.culture.turkish:4305 talk.politics.soviet:3458 soc.culture.greek:3361 soc.culture.europe:3827 soc.culture.soviet:3130