From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Narva in the inter-war period
Date: 19 Nov 92 05:09:21 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv


 tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
> verbit@cauchy.mit.edu (Mikahil Verbitski) writes:

	Erland wrote:

>>>And to which country did Ivangorod belong in the inter-war
>>>period?

>>	To Russia, I guess. Can someone confirm it?

>Well, I'm sorry, Misha, but I cannot resist. How come you start writing
>on the subject "Narva in the inter-war period" without knowing the
>absolute basics in history? Of course, IVANGOROD BELONGED TO ESTONIA
>BETWEEN TWO WORLD WARS. 

	I am sorry so much. My apologies.

>So, you ask, why is the city called "Ivangorod"? Well, it used to
>be called "Jaanilinn".

	And Tartu is called Yur'ev :) Lots of Baltic cities
	have double names due to the mixed history.

>So, you ask, but this is "historically a Russian area"? Well, at least
>the rural population was (up to WWII) mostly Ingrians, a fenno-ugric
>people closely related to Finns and Estonians.

	I have camped there, and this place is *very* unwelcoming:
	large marches, bad soil etc. I doubt there were many rural
	people there. 

> After WWII, they were
>largely deported to Siberia. Many escaped to Estonia and Finland beforehand.
>So, NOW, yes, it is largely a russian-populated area. But there still
>are some ingrians.

	Yes, I have met some. They are completely russified,
	though they are remembering Stalin's genocide avidly.

>Now one very interesting question is where does the Estonian-Russian
>border lie? According to a single existing agreement on the matter 
>(Tartu treaty), approx. ten km east to Narva (the same for the south-eastern
>part of Estonia, where even larger pieces were taken to Russia).
>Russia unilaterally considers the borders to be as they stand now 
>(between Narva and Ivangorod). Estonia considers the current border
>to be an "administrative border" and the area to the east of that to be
>taken by Russia using force. Estonian standpoint is that the border should
>eventually be decided by a new agreement stemming from bilateral talks.

	I don't think this is wise. There is nothing there
	except industrial centers (Narva's - Ivangorod's
	suburbs are all industrial zone). This zone is populated
	by Russians only and the factories there are no use
	for Estonians (they produce useless stuff like plant food 
	of lowest quality or, as best, parts
	of machines producing elsewhere in Russia). There
	is no reason to bother about several square kilometers
	where nothing grows anyway and which are populated
	with Russians who are now rabidly against Estoniazation
	(learning Estonian etc.) The whole idea to struggle
	for estoniazation (estonification) of Narva region is 
	ridiculous, but there are no particular reasons for
	Estonians to cope with large Russian minority
	which considers itself Soviet (Russian at best)
	citizens. So they should just let the 
	Narva region make a referendum and secede
	to Russia when the referendum will show
	they want. Or make them learn Estonian if they 
	want to be Estonian citizens, but not fight
	for the piece of earth where are no Estonians
	and which is of no use. Nevertheless, Estonian
	goverment repeat Croatian's and Bosnian's
	mistake towards Serbian minority (and
	Serbian's - towards Albanian, and Azeri's -
	towards Armenians) by holding the region
	from secession. Nobody doubts they will
	have dissimilar results (read: partisan
	war with the possibility of full-scale one)...


>>	If you opened the border to Poland
>>	or Yugoslavia, there appeared Russian cities
>>	as well.

>I agree completely. Open the borders to Russia (in case we have here it
>was done unilaterally by Russia, using force) and the result is
>inevitable, especially if the difference in population size is several
>orders of magnitude. That is one reason behind the russophobia 
>(defined: fear of Russia) you can observe in Estonia.

	You are completely right. I always wanted to
	settle somewhere in France, bring >10000
	Russians with me and make a Little Russia
	there. Seriously, all Russians dream about
	this. So beware AND KEEP YOUR BORDERS LOCKED!
	As Russian proverb says, "Granitsa na zamke".

	Misha.