From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:18:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.205528.4444@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <Brr616.wI@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>What you don't think that a player who has more RBI and Runs than anyone
>>else on the team isn't valuable.  A guy with a lot of RBI and Runs scored
>>for their team as compared to other players shows that that player has been 
>>more productive in the opportunities he has got than other players on his
>>team.
>
>No, it doesn't.  It shows that he has had more opportunities than other
>players on his team.  It doesn't say that he has been more productive.  I
>could drive every runner on base for me, and score every time I get on, but
>still have fewer R+RBI than somebody who drove in fewer of the runners on
>for him, but had more opportunities with more runners on.
>
>>But this stat will show the ability of Carter to drive in runs when he
>>gets a chance to. 
>
>Why is this an interesting number?  It doesn't tell you about the RBI
>opportunities he denied the players hitting behind him, by his making outs.
>
>>>The problem with this "more valuable to his team" thing is that you give a
>>>player credit for having rotten teammates, which is silly.  Colbert may or may
>>
>>A good player should get some Credit and not be brought down just because
>>he has poor teammates.  We are trying to evaluate a player fairly not
>>make him look bad because he has bad teammates.
>
>But you shouldn't make him look *better* just because he has bad teammates.
>That's the point.  Babe Ruth drove in 164 runs in 1927;  the '27 Yankees
>scored 975 runs, so Ruth only drove 16.8% of his teams runs.  Joe Carter
>drove in 115 runs for San Diego in 1990; that represented 17% of the Padres
>673 runs.  Do you honestly believe that Joe Carter's 1990 season was even
>remotely equivalent to Babe Ruth's 1927 season? 

I don't think it is possible to compare a player playing in 1927 to a player
in 1990 for the simple reason that baseball has changed so much.  It has
changed in the way pitchers are used (How many relievers were around then),
far fewer teams to share the quality pitching and hitting with etc.  Please
use more current stats as I and most others can relate to them easier because
I know that I was not around at that time.
 
In most lineups a player is going to be used where he can best help his
team score runs.  Whether this is at the start of the lineup if the play has
high on base percentage or in the middle of the order if he has some power.
This stat shows how effective the player was in helping the team produce
runs.  If you wish this may be more effective to compare leadoff hitters
with others leadoff hitters and cleanup hitters with other cleanup hitters
etc. and i never said it was the perfect stat but RBI's and Runs depend
too much on the players hitting around him.  If you have improvements I
would love to hear them but if you just want to try and explain why it
isn't a good stat without improving it or giving suggestions on how to 
improve it then just say you don't like it and leave the discussion about
it.

--David Johnson

>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com
>
>


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