From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Peace for Peace
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:03:49 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University

In <1992Dec16.003141.18723@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>Peace for peace.  The USSR didn't give any land to the US to improve
>relations, nor did the US give any land to the USSR to destroy nukes.

However, neither the US nor the USSR occupied any part of the other's
land.

>Peace for peace is emminently sensible and just.

It will never fly with the Arabs.  And while it only takes one side
to start a war, it takes two to make peace.

>If the Arabs cannot
>bring themselves to find peace with Israel, do  you truly believe that
>giving them a bit more land (not that they are short of this
>commodity) is going to convince them?

Just maybe.  It seemed to work with Egypt.

>Fine, so perhaps MK Kahane should not be referred to as "Rabbi".  I
>just wish that "Reverend" Jesse Jackson would be treated the same way.

Agreed! :-)

>>How widespread is it?  Kach got, what, about 2% of the vote the last
>>time it ran?  And Labor won a fairly convincing victory by Israeli
>>standards in the last election.  I think you deceive yourself as to
>>how widespread that opinion is.

>Support for Kach is still fairly widespread in Israel.

Proof?

>The legal
>alternatives and the requirement to vote only ONCE sent many Kach
>supporters to other parties that share many similar points of view,
>each with their own flavor added.

What percentage (total) did those parties receive?  I'm curious to know
it.

[...]
>I am not proposing Israeli Imperialism into Lebanon, Jordan or Kuwait.
>I AM suggesting that Israeli control of Judea, Samaria and Gaza could
>be perfectly reasonable.  

As we've seen in the last 5 years, it is impractical for Israel to
maintain indefinite military control over Judea, Samaria and Gaza - it
costs more than it's worth.  Even senior members of the Israeli
cabinet are getting sick of the situation in Gaza.  The only
alternatives are Kach's - expel all the Arabs; the "Peaceniks'" -
withdraw; or annex the land and give the Arabs full civil and
political rights as Israeli citizens.  I can't see anyone, Arab or
Jew, going for the last alternative.

>But the Arabs control land that they took from Jewish inhabitants, who
>have no political rights there, either.

Which land is this?  Do you mean land in Arab countries confiscated when
the Jews fled?  It's a bit impractical to give that back.  But sure,
compensation is in order.  That's a topic for negotiation in the peace
process.

>By your logic, the Arabs
>should be offering Israel land.  In fact, seeing as it is the Arabs
>who have been losing the wars, Israel should be suing for peace on her
>own terms, not vica versa.  Ludicrous, no?

Ludicrous, yes.  But time is on the side of the Arabs.  While Israel
has won all the wars and is right now at an advantage, the Arabs,
because of their large population and land, can afford to sit and
wait.  That is why it's better to start trying for peace NOW, so that
Arab attitudes can start to change over the next few decades.

>Most of these communities have been annihilated in the last few
>decades, with nary a trace left in the lands they lived in for so
>long.  If something like this would have happened to someone else, it
>would be decried as "ethinic cleansing" or a "holocaust".  Why you
>might still think that Israel should offer land to the Arabs to make
>amends is beyond me.

I do not think Israel should offer land to "make amends."  In a
perfectly just world, Eretz Israel would have remained empty until
1948, when all of it could have been reclaimed.  That didn't happen.
I'm talking practicality here.  It's a sad situation when people talk
about "justice" and "past wrongs" to avoid the only practical way
to make peace.  We must swallow our pride.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish