From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: The vanquished always want to imitate the victor (Ibn Khaldun)
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:18:53 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Dec23.154949.2072@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:


>   "Allahumma Salli `ala MuHammas wa `ala aali MuHammad kama sallayta `ala aali
>    Ibraheem; wa baarik `ala MuHammad wa `ala aali MuHammad kama baarakta `ala
>    aali Ibraheem"
> 
>   "God, bestow your praise on Muhammad and on the people of Muhammad like you
>    have bestowed your praise on the people of Ibrahim; and bless Muhammad
>    and the people of Muhammad like you have blessed the people of Ibrahim"
> 
>   You see, Islam is not a racist religion.

Thank you very much. Let's see now. What is "people of MOhammed"?
What is "people of Ibrahim"?  Does it mean family ? Does it mean
'descendants' as in Arabs and Jews are descendants of Ibrahim ?

Or is the word one that can be stretched in different contexts?

Let's leave the meaning loose. If we take the Union of the sets, then
it amounts to Jews and Arabs. If we take the Intersection of the sets
it amounts to Muslim Arabs.

If you are going to claim, "people of Mohammed" means Muslims, then
what does "people of Ibrahim" mean ? If "people of Mohammed" means 
those who believe in "Mohammed`s religion", what then does
"people of Ibrahim" mean ?  If it means people who believe in
Ibrahim's religion, then why are the Christians left out ?  If it
has to do with prophethood, why isn' Moses and Jesus there instead 
of Ibrahim?

I suppose I could ask more questions, but I appreciate the time
you took out to answer.


>   Maybe it's because your translation was off the mark. Whoever told you
> about God loving semites is misinformed or ill-intentioned. If you want
> to learn about Islam, I urge you to seek good Muslims and as them.

Thanks for the answer. My remark is not ill-intentioned. And now that
you have posted the ARabic and translated it, there's no need for
my embellished and exaggarated implications.

What does it imply? Would you please give us an interpretation--not
a translation.


>   First of all, not all Messengers (PBUT) were semite, because the Qur'an
> teaches us that to every nation God sent a Messenger and that Muhammad is
> the one Messenger sent to all of humanity.

I already replied to this in private to a few people. But it looks
like I'm being forced to start posting things here. I'm quite aware
of what the Qu'ran says and how everyone got a messenger and a warner.

My question was obvious. Where are the Turkish, French, Russian etc
messengers? When were they sent ? 8,000 BC ?

How were the aborigines of Australia and American Indians supposed
to hear Mohammed's message ? or hear Jesus' message ?


>   Secondly, the reason why the Qur'an is only the Arabic text is that this
> was the language of revelation. Since the Qur'an is the word of God, and
> the lasting miracle, the linguistic impact of the original is unmatched
> by any translation. You can read a translation and understand the main
> meanings of the Qur'an, but you cannot say you read the original. A similar
> concept applies to a French translation of Poe's works for example.

Yes, once again.  Does this mean that I have to read Newton and
Leibniz to understand Calculus ?

Does this mean that you are equating the Qu'ran with poetry ? Or is
it that you're implying that it abounds in imagery, mystical
and elastic clauses, and various innuendos, etc like other sacred
texts ?

What exactly do you mean 'linguistic impact'? Do Arabs go wild when
they read it in Arabic ? Is it true what they say in many books in
the west that Arabs are  particularly prone to succumb to 'eloquence
and imagery' of words instead of logical content? I'm not saying this.
I'm asking you if this is what you are saying; that is, are you
agreeing with these writers, that things must be written in ARabic
with enough flourish, to be understood 'properly' ? 

Just a simple question.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey