HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:39:44 GMT
	<28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com> <Stafford-300992123632@stafford.winona.msus.edu>
	<markg.42.717906594@county.lmt.mn.org>
	<1992Oct3.131726.24533@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
	<1992Oct4.060837.20382@unlv.edu>
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada
In-reply-to: beleg@snooks.isri.unlv.edu's message of 4 Oct 92 06:08:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.060837.20382@unlv.edu> beleg@snooks.isri.unlv.edu (Andrew Bagdanou) writes:

   In article <1992Oct3.131726.24533@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, rkennawa@nyx.cs.du.edu (Richard Kennaway) writes:
   ) 
   ) In my more pessimistic moments, I sometimes wonder if what the Buddha
   ) discovered was merely our modern, everyday consciousness, and that the
   ) Zen notion that we are all already enlightened is true is a rather
   ) more literal sense than the followers of Zen intend.
   ) 

		Your most pessimistic moments must be pretty dark if you think
   day to day consciousness of the late 20th century is anything near 
   enlightenment.  So you don't have to wonder any longer, I'm here to
   inform you that pessimism will be abolished when we are ALL truly
   enlightened.

Well, BB, I'm rather certain (and I will ask the Godo-ni to be sure)
Dogen fully intended a very literal sense and taught Buddha intended the
same.  You don't need to work to create a natural mind, it just is.

Day to day _behaviour_ of the late 20th Century is another question
entirely, but I am here to equally assert without qualification we are
all truly enlightened and have been as long as anyone can remember.  It
is a testament to this great mind of the Naked Ape that it can deceive
itself so well and so easily.  What other animal would fall for
psychotherapy? ;-)

pessimism, optimism: one choice is psychosis, two neurosis.  Didn't
George Carlin once say, "The glass is half full or half empty? I think
you need a bigger glass!"


--
Gary Lawrence Murphy/murphyg@software.mitel.com/mitel!software!murphyg@uunet.ca
 Mitel Corp - 350 Legget Drive, Kanata, Ontario, Canada - (613) 592-2122 x3709
                "How do I know what needs to be done?"
                         "Ask the situation."
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness,alt.psychoactives
From: probst@fraser.sfu.ca (Scott Probst)
Subject: Re: Mind-altering drugs and the pre-conscious
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 05:47:18 GMT

In article <28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com> mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris) writes:
>ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (pink floyd) writes:
>: 
>: BTW- could someone please e-mail me some info on some major
>: philosophical and/or scientific works (ie: books Ican pick up at
>: a bookstore) related to the study of the levels of consciousness?
>: I'm new to this subject but I'm really itnerested in it....And don't
>: know where to look beyond Freud, et al.....
>: 
>I recommend a really wierd book that theorizes that man has only
>had the current level of consciousness for less than 5000 years.
>The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
>By Julian Jaynes. Found in the Artifical Consciousness section
>of a local computer book store...

i looked at this, and actually couldn't work out why it was not listed as 
fiction, but i guess it is still interesting. i really liked david
kalupahana's book on consciousness, put out by SUNY press, the name of
which escapes me now...  for a good description of the current scientific
-orthodox view of consciousness, have a look at william g. farthing's (1992)
book, i think the title is _the study of consciousness_. a bit of a read,
but pretty well put together.

sorry i can't recall those exact titles, but i'll mail 'em to you if you
want.

scott
Xref: sparky alt.consciousness:555 alt.psychoactives:1286
From: dfl@strident.think.com (David Lively)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness,alt.psychoactives
Subject: Re: Mind-altering drugs and the pre-conscious
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:26:32
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
	<28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: strident.think.com
In-reply-to: mesm@netcom.com's message of Sun, 27 Sep 92 02:15:11 GMT

In article <28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com> mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris) writes:

   ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (pink floyd) writes:
   : 
   : For example, are LSD hallucinations related in any way to what lies in
   : your unconscious?  I know that set and setting can have a very strong
   : influence on a person uner the influence of LSD, yet I was wondering
   : if, say for example it was possible to get two people in the exact
   : same set and setting, would their hallucinations always be alike?

Remember that "set" includes personal internal state.

   : 
   : Btw- could someone please e-mail me some info on some major
   : philosophical and/or scientific works (ie: books Ican pick up at
   : a bookstore) related to the study of the levels of consciousness?
   : I'm new to this subject but I'm really itnerested in it....And don't
   : know where to look beyond Freud, et al.....
   : 
   I recommend a really wierd book that theorizes that man has only
   had the current level of consciousness for less than 5000 years.
   The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
   By Julian Jaynes. Found in the Artifical Consciousness section
   of a local computer book store...
   --
   Mary E. S. Morris    |  The future exists first in imagination, then
   mesm@netcom.COM      |  in will, then in reality. -- Galivan Burwell
   =====================================================================
   Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA

Just wanted to add my (late) vote of support for Jaynes' book.  While I
have some problems with his theory, it is interesting and plausible,
particularly his emphasis on the role of language in the development of
consciousness.  Near the end of the book, his discussion of schizophrenics
and the nature of their hallucinations is also apropos to the original
question.
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: gnat@stein.u.washington.edu (L Boyd)
Subject: Re: ABORTION: WHEN Does human Life BEGIN?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:01:25 GMT

Geez, I forgot my favorite quote:

"Republicans believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth."

(-;

Lauren
From: aaronk@county.lmt.mn.org (Aaron S. Kurland)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Date: 1 Oct 92 03:26:37 GMT
Organization: LaserMaster R&D

In article <markg.42.717906594@county.lmt.mn.org> markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert) writes:
>Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
>Path: lmt!mg2.lmt.com!markg
>From: markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert)
>Subject: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
>Message-ID: <markg.42.717906594@county.lmt.mn.org>
>Sender: usenet@lmt.mn.org
>Nntp-Posting-Host: mg2.lmt.com
>Organization: LaserMaster R&D, Minneapolis, MN  USA
>References: <1992Sep26.035747.19099@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> <28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com> <Stafford-300992123632@stafford.winona.msus.edu>
>Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:29:54 GMT

>In article <Stafford-300992123632@stafford.winona.msus.edu> Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford) writes:

>>In article <28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com>, mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris)
>>wrote:
>>> 
>>> ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (pink floyd) writes:
>>> I recommend a really wierd book that theorizes that man has only
>>> had the current level of consciousness for less than 5000 years.
>>> The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
>>> By Julian Jaynes. Found in the Artifical Consciousness section
>>> of a local computer book store...

>>Yes!  Excellent book.  Anyone know what happened to Julian Jaynes after
>>it was published?  Last I heard, his office was moved to a broom
>>closet.  Seriously.

Mark, Was there not a Part II to this book?

Aaron
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross."
                                        - Spalding Gray

  My company has not yet accepted my application for Corporate Spokesmodel.

        Mail: aaronk@county.lmt.mn.org       Flames: alt.dev.nul
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: pjordan@rp.CSIRO.AU (Patrick Jordan)
Subject: Re: MIND-CONTROL By ORTHODOX Religions
Organization: CSIRO Division of Radiophysics, NSW, Australia
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:55:35 GMT

mathis@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Don Mathis) writes:
> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
> 
> >          attend church and Sunday school nearly every week.  Every 
> >          Saturday I was forced to WASTE a lot of time memorizing Bible 
> >          verses and quotations from Martin Luther, for recitation 
> >          during Sunday school.  Most of these memorizations were about 
> >          Lutheran DOCTRINE, rather than Christian living.  This is 
> >          MIND-CONTROL. 
> >               The reason there seems to be little interest so far in 
> >          Eckankar, Sant Mat, etc., is because most people have been so 
> >          thoroughly BRAINWASHED by orthodox teachings. 
> >                                       Robert E. McElwaine
> >                                       2nd Initiate in Eckankar

I was amazed that the original poster could have shouted so much about
MIND CONTROL, and have come to such a clear realisation about his
previous MIND CONTROL (why IS it in caps) only to fall for another
MIND CONTROL scheme, and not realise that he is no so thoroughly
controlled that he believes it to be the ONE TRUTH.

> 
> Perhaps the problem with which we are all faced in trying to become
> free thinkers is not in choosing WHICH prepackaged philosophy to
> learn, but how to avoid feeling compelled to follow someone else's
> philosphy in the first place.

Yeah! What a great philosophy. You are so wise. That's the philosophy
for me. I don't suppose you've written a book on it. I'll help spread
the word if you like.....

Be seeing you!

Patrick.
(First Disciple of Reverend Da Free Don Mathis)         (lots of smileys).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Jordan                      |          _
CSIRO Division of Radiophysics      |        // \   I am not a number,
NSW, Australia                      |       /( 6 )  I am a free man.
pjordan@rp.csiro.au                 |      () \_/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:41:44 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In article <1992Sep16.135214.1265@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:


>          

>                      THE DIVINE MASTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS

Dear Robert:  given up disputing modern physics then?
Still heavily into CAPS, I see.


              Have another day    [Armageddon, the musical] 
  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England   (44|0)61-275-6033  
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: beleg@snooks.isri.unlv.edu (Andrew Bagdanou)
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Reply-To: beleg@isri.unlv.edu
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 06:08:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.131726.24533@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, rkennawa@nyx.cs.du.edu (Richard Kennaway) writes:
) 
) Something I find most curious about Jaynes' book is that he never once
) mentions Buddhism, although Buddhism began at about the time when he
) claims that consciousness did (well, give or take a few centuries).
) In my more pessimistic moments, I sometimes wonder if what the Buddha
) discovered was merely our modern, everyday consciousness, and that the
) Zen notion that we are all already enlightened is true is a rather
) more literal sense than the followers of Zen intend.
) 


Mr. Kennaway,
     Your most pessimistic moments must be pretty dark if you think
day to day consciousness of the late 20th century is anything near 
enlightenment.  So you don't have to wonder any longer, I'm here to
inform you that pessimism will be abolished when we are ALL truly
enlightened.

-BB
From: danny@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Danny Graham)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: [fwd] Determinism and Deja Vu
Date: 1 Oct 92 09:19:27 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

pete@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Peter Alexander Merel) writes:

>I think this is simply explained by statistics. Every night there are five
>billion dreamers on the earth. A small number of dreamers (say, one in a
>hundred) will have an intense dream that they remember upon waking. Every once
>in a while, by accident, one of these dreamers will subsequently have an
>experience that resembles their dream. This seems more likely than the 
>proposition that none of these dreamers will ever have such an experience. 

>As to the frequency of this experience - this was Mark's only instance. I've
>had a similar experience once. Going by this extremely small sample population
>It seems like having a 'real deja vu' experience happens to most people once
>every twenty or thirty years.

There is also another school of thought, that believes that different parts
of a persons consciousness travel through time at different speeds. Thus
when you have a feeling of deja vu, it is quite possible that a part of you
has had this experiance already, and has buried it into your sub-conscious
prior to the rest of your mind experiancing that event.

Danny
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert)
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Organization: LaserMaster R&D, Minneapolis, MN  USA
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:24:38 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.171552.6303@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath) writes:

 . . . text deleted . . .

>As you note, the most controversial hypothesis was the very recent
>development of 'modern' consciousness, due to literacy.  This hypothesis
>does not really fit well with the rest of cognitive psychology, nor with
>much of cross cultural psychology that finds human psychology and behavior
>essentially the same regardless of the difference in languages and
>whether there is a literary tradition.

. . . text deleted . . .

Jaynes' theory proposes that the development of modern consciousness 
resulted from the breakdown of the bicameral mind, not from the development 
of literacy.  He uses the very oldest writings as evidence of the bicameral 
mind, but these writings simply represent the first record we have of how 
people used to think, they did not themselves play a big role in the changes 
in our ways of thinking.  He does connect the bicameral mind with language - 
I will try to summarize the argument in another post.

Mark Gilbert
------------
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert)
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Organization: LaserMaster R&D, Minneapolis, MN  USA
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:30:17 GMT

In article <aaronk.160.717909997@county.lmt.mn.org> aaronk@county.lmt.mn.org (Aaron S. Kurland) writes:

>In article <markg.42.717906594@county.lmt.mn.org> markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert) writes:

>>In article <Stafford-300992123632@stafford.winona.msus.edu> Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford) writes:

>>>In article <28!pm4q.mesm@netcom.com>, mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris)
>>>wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (pink floyd) writes:
>>>> I recommend a really wierd book that theorizes that man has only
>>>> had the current level of consciousness for less than 5000 years.
>>>> The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
>>>> By Julian Jaynes. Found in the Artifical Consciousness section
>>>> of a local computer book store...

>>>Yes!  Excellent book.  Anyone know what happened to Julian Jaynes after
>>>it was published?  Last I heard, his office was moved to a broom
>>>closet.  Seriously.

>Mark, Was there not a Part II to this book?

>Aaron


Jaynes mentions in the book that he intends to follow up with another, but I 
have never seen it, and have no other reason to believe that he actually 
wrote it at all.

Mark Gilbert
From: mshute@cs.man.ac.uk (Malcolm Shute)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: MIND-CONTROL By ORTHODOX Religions
Date: 1 Oct 92 08:54:09 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Sep29.181217.1412@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>                       MIND-CONTROL by ORTHODOX Religions
>          
>               For the first twenty years of my life I was a Missouri 
>          Synod Lutheran.  For six years during grade school, I had to ...[etc]

Not again!
You've already posted this once, two weeks ago, in soc.religion.christian
(probably a few others too, for all I know).  I thought you'd already
received your replies to your thesis, there.  And yet, here it is again,
the original posting is completely unchanged.

Are you actually *listening* to the net... or just talking?
--

Malcolm SHUTE.         (The AM Mollusc:   v_@_ )        Disclaimer: all
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 17:15:52 GMT

In article <markg.42.717906594@county.lmt.mn.org>, markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert) writes in part:
|> 
|> I thought the book was brilliantly written, thoroughly argued and quite 
|> convincing.  He discusses what consciousness is and what it is not, and 
|> presents an argument about the origin of consciousness in human evolution.  
|> Certainly our conscious mind was not always as it is today, and Jaynes 
|> proposes a plausible path for the development of consciousness.
|> 
|> Perhaps most controversial is his suggestion that modern consciousness 
|> evolved from a simpler form of consciousness, the bicameral mind.  He sees 
|> evidence of this simpler mind in the earliest recorded writings, and he 
|> traces the effects of the evolution of the mind through human history, 
|> providing plausible connections between the evolution of the mind and the 
|> evolution of civilization.

Its been a while, but I seem to recall that when this book first came 
out my friends who are cognitive psychologists and linguists were unimpressed.  
They thought his ideas goofy.

As you note, the most controversial hypothesis was the very recent
development of 'modern' consciousness, due to literacy.  This hypothesis
does not really fit well with the rest of cognitive psychology, nor with
much of cross cultural psychology that finds human psychology and behavior
essentially the same regardless of the difference in languages and
whether there is a literary tradition.

Personally, I think this is a case of a bright mind chasing an
interesting idea far beyond any reasonable evidence.  The better
the mind, the more convincing the crank theory.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: pete@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Peter Alexander Merel)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: [fwd] Determinism and Deja Vu
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:41:14 GMT
Organization: AOTC - CSSC

S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz) writes:
>fred@meiko.co.uk (Mark Homewood) writes:
>While at college I went on a camping holiday with a student girlfriend. We
>travelled across to the continent on a ferry. I never
>sleep very well in the Economy recliner so I lay on the floor and had a very
>disturbed night. In the morning over a cup of coffee brewed on deck over a
>parafin stove I told my companion of a odd dream I'd just had. "We were walking
>down this street and stopped outside this bar. We sat on a brick wall outside
>this bar and on the wall next to us there was a pile of broken walnut shells".

>We arrived in Holland and took a train to Gronigen in the north. Where we were
>going to camp. We walked around the town and came to a bar. While deciding
>what to do we sat on the wall outside. I looked down, deja vu, a pile of walnut
>shells. I pointed them out to my friend "Look". She remembered with clarity
>my dream, "Just like you said".

I think this is simply explained by statistics. Every night there are five
billion dreamers on the earth. A small number of dreamers (say, one in a
hundred) will have an intense dream that they remember upon waking. Every once
in a while, by accident, one of these dreamers will subsequently have an
experience that resembles their dream. This seems more likely than the 
proposition that none of these dreamers will ever have such an experience. 

As to the frequency of this experience - this was Mark's only instance. I've
had a similar experience once. Going by this extremely small sample population
It seems like having a 'real deja vu' experience happens to most people once
every twenty or thirty years.

But they are compelling ...

-- 
Internet: pete@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au   UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!cssc-syd!pete
Snail: 1/18-20 Orion Road, Lane Cove NSW 2066 Australia    Phone: +61 2 911 3130
"Nothing is pulling it. Nothing is pushing it. It must be devil's work!"
From: dab@ism.isc.com (Dave Butterfield)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness . . .
Date: 6 Oct 1992 16:54:31 GMT
Organization: x
NNTP-Posting-Host: change

markg@county.lmt.mn.org (Mark Gilbert) writes:
>Julian Jaynes
>The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

>Once you accept that people are hearing voices of people not present, it is 
>easy to understand the invention of gods, those speakers of messages to 
>guide their people.

This sounds like a very interesting book.

Just the other day I realized that Freud's superego and God
are the same phenomonon in different disguises.  I wonder if
Freud's models work better on monothiests than on polythiests.
-- 
          Magic is the art of assuming a role strongly enough
          that the Universe falls into the complementary role.
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness,alt.psychoactives
From: mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris)
Subject: Re: Mind-altering drugs and the pre-conscious
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 02:15:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (pink floyd) writes:
: 
: For example, are LSD hallucinations related in any way to what lies in
: your unconscious?  I know that set and setting can have a very strong
: influence on a person uner the influence of LSD, yet I was wondering
: if, say for example it was possible to get two people in the exact
: same set and setting, would their hallucinations always be alike?
: 
: BTW- could someone please e-mail me some info on some major
: philosophical and/or scientific works (ie: books Ican pick up at
: a bookstore) related to the study of the levels of consciousness?
: I'm new to this subject but I'm really itnerested in it....And don't
: know where to look beyond Freud, et al.....
: 
I recommend a really wierd book that theorizes that man has only
had the current level of consciousness for less than 5000 years.
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
By Julian Jaynes. Found in the Artifical Consciousness section
of a local computer book store...
--
Mary E. S. Morris    |  The future exists first in imagination, then
mesm@netcom.COM      |  in will, then in reality. -- Galivan Burwell
=====================================================================
Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness