From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:53:33 GMT

In article <31DEC199211503855@elroy.uh.edu> lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.054444.27043@wam.umd.edu>, angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes...
>>In article <30DEC199203090145@elroy.uh.edu> lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>>
>>>That's perfectly fine and I see nothing wrong in it.  If she wants to call
>>>herself a pagan/christian thats fine.  However, don't you see that what she
>>>is doing is far more pagan than christian?  A pagan can accept this, but a
>>>christian never could...not by the definitions of the religion.
>> 
>>Well, it depends on how you define/interpret the teachings....
>>Honestly, is it fair for pagans to impose the definition of what it
>>is to be Christian on others?  
>
>I know perfectly well what it is to be Christian.  I was raised in a
>Missionary Baptist church...
You know what it is to be Missionary Baptist.  But, I was trying to
say that Christianity is almost as much a "blanket term" as paganism.
I know that many Christians are closed-minded, prejudiced, etc.  I
wanted to appeal to pagans not to respond in kind.  I was raised
Catholic, and I had a very "unitarian universalist" outlook most of the
time.  Some would take one look at my beliefs when I was Catholic and
say "oh, she was really pagan."  But I'm saying that many Christians
are very open-minded and have beliefs that are not incompatible with
paganism.  That does not mean that they are "really pagan" but it does
mean that not all Christians are like the extremists...  It's not fair
to stereotype all Christians as closed-minded.
(By the way, my parents do know that I'm pagan, and I still attend
Mass with them when I choose to, and they are very tolerant of my
paganism, even though they are Catholic.)

>Which means that around them I have to
>act just a Christian as them...(barf)...but I love them too much.  That
>is why I sacrifice myself in the way.
Based on what I know of Christianity, acting the way you describe is not
"Christian."  Again, I would appeal that we work toward peaceful 
co-existance, and call that something else.  Otherwise, it's too easy
to forget that Christianity does not = closed-mindedness.

>Sorry but your analogy doesn't hold up.  I am not a bigot.  I don't 
>believe in Xtianity because it is not my path.  For those whose path
>is Xtianity and they follow it truly, I have a great deal of respect
>for.  I know several Christians, devote Christians, who live the
>life of a Christian, for whom I have the greatest respect.  It is the
>hippocrites that I have a problem with.
Then be careful that you do not blanket all Christians as closed-minded.
That is a prejudice.

>I am not talking about approval or disapproval.  I am talking about
>philosophies.  The philosophy of the Christian religion does not allow
>for any other god than that of God the father, son, and holy spirit.
>If you are a Christian this is the philosophy you follow....you cannot fast
>on Tuesday and eat on Tuesday...it is physically impossible.
That is the philosophy of _one_sect_ of Christianity.  There are
others that allow for non-Christians to (go to heaven, or whatever).
I happen to know of several Catholic priests who sincerely believe that
while you do not have to be Christian in order to (get to heaven or
whatever), they offer their path as one which has promised success.

I don't believe in heaven, and I think the promises are maybe not
quite what they expect, but I am just saying that not all sects of
Christianity believe that Christianity is the only way.  There are
some, in fact, who say that Christ was a lot more like Don in Richard
Bach's _Illusions_ - "I am the Messiah, and so are you," that sort of
thing...

>Once again, I say, what you want to CALL yourself is your business.
>It is not my place to approve or disapprove....
I was addressing my post to those people who claimed that a person
calling themselves a Christian/pagan is "not really
Christian."

>>Instead of trying to enforce
>>that which _divides_ pagan and Christian, perhaps we could try to
>>look for common ground, so that we can eventually learn to co-exist
>>in peace.
>I am not dividing....pagans all around are waiting for this....waiting 
>for the Xtians to do the same.....
Some of them are.  If you expect a fight, you will generally find one.
I have interacted with many Christians who were open-minded and 
understanding, and I've helped them learn a little bit more about
paganism.  Admittedly, the conservative groups are stagnating, but
their own negativity may eventually be their downfall.  Antagonizing
them only fuels their self-righteous, "holy-war" attitudes.

>Once again I am discussing philosophies, not trying to divide.  Christians
>would call the woman who refers to herself as Pagan/Christian a blasphemer.
>She is welcomed among us.
Not all X-ians would condemn her.  Not all pagans would welcome her.

>"Love those who scorn you"..... if only they followed their own beliefs as
>well as we follow them.....:(
Some X-ians do.  Others don't.  Some pagans do.  Others don't.
I try to not to be self-righteous about paganism, because too often
I see pagans being just as hypocritical as some Christians.  
I just try to do what's right for me, and leave it at that.

>I am not fucking trying to force her into a path.  NEVER DID I SAY THAT SHE
>IS RIGHT OR WRONG NOR DID I EVER TELL HER WHAT OR WHAT SHE SHOULD OR SHOULD
>NOT BE DOING.  I MERELY WAS DISCUSSING PHILOSOPHY.  HAVEN'T YOU EVER TAKEN
>A PHILOSOPHY CLASS?!!!!!!!
Hey, relax.  All I was saying was don't try to tell her that she isn't
really Christian.  And no, I have not taken any philosophy classes;
I am an engineer.  Nonetheless, I understand about discussing
philosophy, and I did not see you doing that.  IF you had said
"It is my understanding that Christianity and paganism are mutually
exclusive" then we could discuss philosophies.  

>Blessing to you Angela....I only hope that you can lift you head up long
>enough to notice what I said and not put in words and meanings that I 
>never wrote.  Stop preaching and take the time to listen for a change.
I am sorry that I misunderstood you, and obviously you have misunderstood
me.  Perhaps we could both be more careful of our word-choices and
avoid further misunderstandings.

Love and blessings,
Angela

-- 
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan