From: SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin)
Subject: Re: Yet another sleepless night
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:50:25 GMT

I see that I failed to make my point (such as it was) because
I was trying to be too concise.  I'll try again.

In article <1992Jul21.051225.11036@cco.caltech.edu>,
ajm@wag.caltech.edu (Abner J. Mintz) writes:
>Marie writes ...
>>Aren't most of the above "abuses of men" primarily inflicted on men
>>by men?  I think many women would, for instance, prefer it if men
>>were less obsessed by sports.  And many women would prefer if
>>"their man" didn't like to fight.  Etc..  What "abuses of men"
>>are inflicted on men by *women*?
>
>*sigh* I think you missed the point.  I wasn't saying that all these things were
>the fault of women, I was saying that all of these things were the
fault of
>traditional society.  And, as a side-note, I don't think that being male in a
>'male-dominated' society has helped me particularly ... at least, I am often
>looked down upon for my actions and opinions, since they don't match up with
>either of modern society's fundamental trends.  There are people who defend
>traditional society, either because they benefit or because they are brain-
>washed.  And there are people who attack it and anyone who would supposedly
>benefit from it, on the grounds that they are part of the system.

I never said men weren't hurt by the views of a male-dominated
society.  I'm only saying that I think it's a different problem.
Afterall, if men are in control, aren't they in a better position
to make changes?

>If a person is white or black, should they bear the responsibility for the
>actions of all other whites or blacks?  If a person is male or female, should
>they bear the responsibility for all other males or females.  If a person is
>a young German (born after WWII) are they responsible for the holocaust?
>I think not.

Obviously not.  However, in times of trouble, blacks will stand by
blacks, whites by whites, etc.. (Generally, not specifically.)  Not
necessarily a good thing, but you have to admit that this is how
it works, more often than not.  This is also what has taken place
in the work-force.  The men do the promoting, so they promote men.
This is changing, slowly, but it's a painful struggle.

>Traditional society may have been male-dominated, but I do not feel any guilt
>for that; it wasn't my doing.  And it must be noted that the few female-
>dominated societies that occured through history were generally just as bad ...

Are you speaking of the nearly prehistoric greek civilizations,
where women priestesses had a male "king", whom they ate in a
violent ceremony every year?  Everyone was fairly savage back then.
It would be interesting to see the result of a female-dominated
society in current civilization.  I'm not saying better, just
interesting.  Undoubtedly there would be an entirely new batch
of problems in such a society.  Equality would probably be best.
Then the blame could be shared :-).

>I don't think oppression is the fault of being male.  I think it's the fault of
>being human.

True.  But oppression occurs when one group discriminates against
another.  In this case, we are talking about the oppression of
women by men.  It doesn't sound right to say that men oppress
men in the same context.  I think the oppression of men by men,
(or of men by a male-dominated society) could be called
peer pressure.  This is sort of a different thing, isn't it?

>>>Men lose over 90% of custody fights.
>>
>>>If in the course of such a fight, a woman accuses a man of child abuse, she
>>>      is automatically believed, and he is put in jail (and loses all chance
>>>      of getting the children unless the woman is obviously mentally ill).
>>
>>Aren't these a penalty of a male dominated system?
>
>You're saying that if women dominated the courts and the legal system, men
>would win about half of the custody fights?  Can you give me the reasoning
>behind this, or did you mean something else?

Ah, no.  I'm not saying this.  I'm saying that if men don't
like this outcome, then why did they arrange for it, and why don't
they change it?  After all, this is a male dominated society,
isn't it? It strikes me that the women's equality movement
prompted the change that it is occuring in the court system, where
men are now starting to have better luck in custody battles.

>>Do they put pictures in Harlequins, these days?  But that's beside
>>the point.  I don't *know* any women who by Playgirl.  As a woman,
>>I can't understand  the point men see in reading Playboy, but
>>I am more inclined to think bad thoughts about the women who
>>pose, rather than the men who look at them (perhaps wrongly).
>
>Why think bad thoughts about either?  I'd like to discuss this, probably
>through email.  Pornography is another of those inflammable issues ...

I responded to this in another posting.  It is not a *strong*
feeling.  Just a tendency.

>I just cannot think that it is any better for a man to victimize another man
>than to victimize a woman.  If the society abuses both men and women, isn't
>it the fault of the society and those that control it (who in this case
>happen to be men) rather than the fault of those being victimized who happen
>to be the same sex as the oppressors?  I don't see how my gender makes me
>responsible for the behavior of others of my gender, good or bad.

I'm not saying that *you* are responsible.  I'm just saying that
there is a difference between peer pressure and oppression.  As a
male in a male dominated society, aren't you (generically speaking)
in a better position to do something about these problems?  Aren't
you in a better position to defend yourself?
>
>Marie, I'm male.  I admit it.  Can we still be friends?

Of course!  Don't confuse my arguments with "male-bashing"!
I'm not into man-hating and blaming all of my problems on
men.  In fact, I naively thought (long ago) discrimination against
women was dead, until I saw it in action against friends
and against myself.  I was merely trying to point out the
differences between the male complaints against society and
the female complaints.  They are both valid, but I think the
effect on the respective egos/psyches might be different.  Of
course, I can't really say, since I've never been a male!

--Marie

P.S.  I didn't mean to make you think I was anti-male.  Let me
prove it by having a drink with you -- I'll buy.
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