From: jmfuchs@unix.amherst.edu (JESSE MICHAEL FUCHS)
Subject: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?
Followup-To: soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.asian.america,soc.culture.usa,misc.education
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:29:15 GMT

Tom Leylan (tleylan@pegasus.com) wrote:
> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
> 
> >Time and time again it
> >has been shown that education does not equate with success in buisiness,
> >for one instance, Bill Gates, dropped out of College after 1 semester and
> >founded Microsoft.  He is, by all definitions successful, worth $1billion
> >by 30, yet quit school.  The superficial analysis would pin him as lazy
> >(how can he quit school?  How lazy!), but he built one of the most powerful
> >Software companies in the world!
> 
> >You are totally incorrect in stating that American students are lazy, they
> >aren't at all.  The education system, however, does have problems, for
> >one, teachers are low-paid.
> 
> Brent:  I'm sorry but you're off base on this one.  The students are lazy
> and unmotivated and relatively speaking rather stupid.  Their parents are
> lazy and unmotivated and equally stupid along with the teachers.
	This seems very silly to pin blame on students. Being as that they,
we can assume, are not just genetically dumber than the previous generation,
the problem must lie in their enviroment. Who created that enviroment? 
The previous generation. I will, however, agree that teachers are generally
but-stupid. Not that I think SATs are some magic judge of people's intellect,
but do you know what the average SAT score of teachers graduating from some
teaching school in New Jersey? 
	Neither do I. I can't find the article where the exact score, and the
name of  the college was listed. However, it was somewhere in the 700s.
	Combined.
	I.e., butt-stupid.
> 
> I don't think anyone was trying to equate success and school education
> and Bill Gate's is not the example of laziness you try and make it but
> rather the opposite.  The lazy people are the ones who after 12 years
> or more still can't read and write in their native language, not the
> one's who can't sit around and start businesses instead.
> 
> Teachers BTW, are paid exactly what they are worth, not a penny less,
> not a penny more.  There is not "teacher pay" formula but the one we
> all use, supply and demand.  If there was a demand for better teachers
> they would be hired.  Don't confuse "desire" and demand.  A demand means
> you're willing to trade something of value, a desire is something that
> a genie might grant you but it doesn't require trading anything of value.
	The teachers we have are, probably worth exactly what they are paid -
that is, very little. However, if salaries were raised, it would attract 
smart people to a job that they would not otherwise consider. Of course, one
cannot raise salaries for butt-stupid teachers, or else one is just throwing
more money at the problem irrationally. The solution is, in my mind, to pay
teachers more, but make qualifications much more stringent. Do you know how
difficult it is to get rid of a teacher with tenure these days? Even if they
absolutely suck? Make teachers have to pass some sort of standardized test,
have them evaluated more stringently, but pay them more. The net effect:
teaching becomes a difficult, prestigious, high-paying job. Sure, it'll cost
money, but what better use is there for money than education?
> 
> Look what Americans argue about, whether unmarried sex is okay, can a
> person see naked titties on TV, if you let a kid drink a beer they
> become drug addicts.  Collectively America is an overweight, 220 year old
> child who accepts the accolades and places the blame.  Individually it
> has some great people in it but they are stymied by the blabbering
> kid who wants all the attention.
	Being as this is a Japan thread, I feel it necessary to point out that
the Japanese argue about things just as silly as this. For an example, one need
look no further than the book "Santa Fe," and the ensuing flap.
> 
> tom
> 
							-jess
Xref: sparky soc.culture.japan:12706 soc.culture.asian.american:11083