From: bcanning@reed.edu (Benjamin Canning esq.)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Diplomacy MUD ideas (was Re: Diplomacy Adjudicator)
Date: 20 Nov 92 03:22:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov20.032230.8904
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Nov19.161905.26464@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
% I think a Diplomacy MUD would be a great idea, but I think it should
% definitely be a separate entity from the e-mail serving Diplomacy
% Adjudicator. It might be useful to use code from the Adjudicator, for
% handling move resolution for example, though you'd have to get Ken Lowe's
% permission of course. Real-time interactive Diplomacy on a MUD would be just
% drastically different from e-mail Dip, and while I think both have their
% merits, I think it might be confusing and unweildy to try to merge them,
% when they're so easily kept distinct.
% 
% Do you see any advantages to building a Dip MUD into the Adjudicator rather
% than simply running one separately? I don't, but that doesn't mean there
% aren't any. (grin) Let me know if I've missed some obvious (or inobvious)
% advantage.
% 
% I'll post more of my ideas about what a good Diplomacy MUD would look like
% at some point. Time, time, time...
% -- 
% Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
% Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
% "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
% several of us died of tuberculosis." -Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts

	I like the idea of a Diplomacy MUD, but I have a few
questions. First, one of the best things about e-mail Dip is that you
can deal with your mail at your leisure. It's infinitely easier, I've
found, to get together an e-mail game than it is to get seven people
together face to face. A Dip Mud would seem to require that people get
together at set times to diplomacize. I suppose this would be
feasible, though, it seems like it would be a misnomer to call it a
mud.
	I suppose what Jonathan had in mind initially was a sort of
add on to press, i.e. rather than hash it out through mail, you'd
agree to meet Germany at 7:00 on the 'MUD' to discuss an agreement.
This seems like it would be feasible to do, though I wonder if I'd use
it much.
	The other alternative would be an actual MUD devoted to
diplomacy games. I really don't know how you'd work this, but I think
it would be quite interesting. You'd have to work out some sort of
format, i.e. would you schedule games at set times, or would you just
wait for the needed number of players to sign on and let them start
their own games? You'd want to build the Judge orders processor into
the code somehow, and then what, have some sort of robot run each
game, or have the Gods of the MUD be respected moderators, who would
run each game? Although that sounds really nice, having human
moderators, I imagine that could be very tiresome for them. There are
a lot of issues that would need to be resolved, but I think the idea
has real possibilities. Hopefully we'll discuss it further in this
forum. 
	One aspect that really intrigues me, is the notion of wedding
structured game aspect of Diplomacy to the adventuring, social aspect
of a standard MUD. I haven't had time to formulate this clearly, but
let me see if I can describe what I mean. I guess what would happen
would be that when you created your character, you'd be assigned a
country. Instead of killing monsters, or perhaps in addition to that,
the idea would be that your end goal was to conquer the conquer the
countries of other players. To do this, you'd need to enlist the aid
of other player, in classic dip style. We'd maintain the spatial
relationships between countries, i.e. similar movement rules to
regular Diplomacy, but we'd try to add the spacial elements of a MUD
as well.
	To do this, perhaps you could say that each country has
several player's associated with it, each with a different function;
spies, soldiers, and the king. The more you played, the higher you'd
be ranked in each game, until eventually you had earned the right to
be a king and run an entire nation. Somehow, admittedly this is still
all nebulous, we could have the lower level players try to gather
information, make deals and the like. Of course, you'd try to
coordinate information, etc. throught the king, but then ministers
could be bribed. It's admittedly more complicated than standard
Diplomacy, but more complicated (hopefully) not in the sense of
movement rules and such, but in terms of increased diplomacizing, in a
real time setting. My intention is that a single game would be
ongoing, perhaps never-ending, in the sense that as old players were
killed off, and deputies put in their place to control newly conquered
territories, new players would need to be added to the lower ranks.
Ideally, you'd end up with a somewhat organic system of power flowing
from one ruler to another, with rebellious coalitions being formed
whenever anyone seemed to consolidate their rule to well. 
	I realize that Empire is somewhat like this, though I've never
played it. It seems to me that empire is more rules-oriented, and it
isn't really a real-time environment, unlike what I'm proposing. In
any case, I hope that this will provoke some discussion. 
					-Ben Canning
-- 
Benjamin Canning 		|  
Philosophy/Religion Student     |  The mills of God grind slowly,
Reed College     		|  but they grind exceedingly small.
Portland, Oregon		|
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy