From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:57:08 GMT
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department

In article <bdm.717559515@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>dispute between Israel and the Arab states.  You're just trying to
>>wriggle out of this challenge, that I have presented to you several
>>times already, never getting any kind of serious response.
>
>You misunderstand.  My wriggling is caused by laughter.

I suppose that this is your "serious response".

>>If you think that a major proportion of Jordanians are refugees from
>>"Israeli-Occupied Palestine", you will have to do a lot of convincing.
>
>I believe that the majority of people living in Jordan who
>consider themselves Palestinians are refugees from the west
>of the Jordan or their descendants.

Like those history texts that you believe and those that you discount,
this is another of your "beliefs".  Would you call this a "religious 
dogmatic belief"?

>>>>all, the East Bank (currently called the country of Jordan) is about
>>>>3/4 of what was known as Palestine in the past. 
>
>Bullcrap.  Anyway, if Jordan is such a desirable place maybe Israel
>should propose a swap.  hahaha, good one.

I haven't mentioned desirability, which is irrelevant, anyways, as is 
your comment on this.  Unimpressive.

>>>Since you have made this claim dozens of times but never even tried to
>>>present evidence for it, I think it must be a religious belief of yours.  
>>>I try to avoid arguments about religion.

You do have this hangup about religious beliefs, don't you.

>>While you have claimed that a Palestinean state rightly belongs
>>somewhere inside Israel instead of in Jordan, you have not responded
>
>I'm getting worried about you Jake.  Quote me on that "claim".

I don't bother to save your silly postings, so we'll just have to 
settle for some of your recent fare.

In article <bdm.717861102@cs.anu.edu.au> you wrote:

>I didn't say that Palestinians recognise Israel.  What I would suggest 
>is a swap:  Israel makes a formal declaration that it accepts the 
>Palestinians as a people with the same rights to self-determination 
>as any other people, and the Palestinians repeal all articles in the 
>Covenant and elsewhere that call for the destruction of Israel and
>formally denounce that call.  (Anyone who thinks that such declaration
>by Israel is not necessary should read t.p.m for a while.)   Formal 
>recognition of a Jewish state by the Palestinians can wait until Israel 
>is ready to recognise a Palestinian state.

After arguing so vigorously for months on end that Palestine was
inside what is now Israel and that Jordan had almost nothing to do
with old Palestine, your call for a Palestinean state could only
logically be on some land inside what is today Israel, unless you had
Uganda in mind, perhaps.

Is this a good Quote for your claim or would you even consider your
own posting to be "flawed and biased"?

>>to any of my challenges to show that the land East of the Jordan was
>>in fact NOT called Palestine about 100 years ago, just like the land
>>West of the Jordan.
>
>I think it is a complete waste of time debating this with you.

You sure seem to put plenty effort into it.

>You know perfectly well that negatives are impossible to prove.

Quite right.  Don't prove to us what Jordan was NOT called, prove to
us what it WAS called.  Unfortunately, you have found "Palestine" on
old maps of the area and thus continue with the lame argument that the
exact borders of Palestine were not well-defined and that the giant
chunk of it which is now called Jordan had no name at all.  Pathetic.

>On the other hand, you could prove that Jordan is a subset of
>Palestine just by finding one clear statement or map dating from
>"about 100 years ago".  Since you have never given us reason to
>believe you even know where your library is, I won't hold my breath.

I won't do your homework for you.  Whenever Jack Shmidling tells us 
that the Holocaust didn't happen or one of his cronies cries out for 
proof that it did, I don't bother to re-prove the obvious.  Some
people do and they have good reason to.  Likewise, I don't bother to
prove the obvious in your ridiculous arguments which, whenever they
fall against you, you say are based on "flawed and biased" sources.
It is on YOU that logical and factual arguments are being wasted.

>You also know that I have stated that some of the western edge
>of the Jordan was once regarded as part of Palestine, and even
>quoted writings of early in the century in support.  You are just 
>on your usual trip of making up opinions for people you are unable 
>to handle by reasoned argument.  

I, for one, am still unimpressed with your arguments.  Your greatest
supporters in recent months have been the thoroughly discredited Anisa
and Elghani.  I hope you are suitably pleased with your efforts.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast