HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Re: Display of nudes
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:34:23 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:23:28 GMT

sullivan@cs.rose-hulman.edu (Fred Sullivan) writes:
>roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle) writes:
>>sullivan@cs.rose-hulman.edu (Fred Sullivan) writes regarding Nude Pics:

>>>1.  Our department has no policy against display of the kind of material in
>>>question.
>>Or, "Nobody wants to take responsibility for making decisions around here."

>>>2.  I am not going to tell him that he has to remove the pictures.
>>And, "I can't make decisions either."

>>>3.  My personal opinion is that he is acting like a adolescent jerk.
>>  						       ---------------
>>You'd rather get personal and start calling him names.
>>And show him who's boss.

>Evidently I'm the kettle and you're the pot.  Read your replies to 1. and 2.
>above, and tell me you're not getting personal.  In this case I believe that a
>student appreciates an honestly expressed opinion, rather than being told to
>obey a rule imposed from on high.

Not being your teacher, supervisor, or authority figure, candid
responses to 1. and 2. above are not exactly intimidating.  My text in
quotes was used to illustrate what thoughts might be going through a
student's head when listening to 1. and 2., which are both 
irrelevant.  There is no policy regarding nude visuals and so pointing
this out is irrelevant and weakens your case.  When criticizing
subordinates or a student one must be careful to avoid the impression
of being menacing, for their well being, and also in avoiding legal
complications.  If "adolescent jerk" is your "honestly expressed
opinion", then in your case honesty may not be the best policy.

>I'm not sure exactly what your point is.  Is it that I was too blunt in
>expressing my opinion of the students' actions, or that I was wrong in my
>assessment?  

It was the first.

>             If it's the first, then I can only say that the students
>involved are a better judge than you, and my relationship with them has not
>suffered.  

Because they were goaded into submission by their instructor we must
therefore conclude that the means are justified?  A judge tries and
convicts a man who is innocent, and the man is sent to prison.  When
questioned about the verdict after the trial the judge replies, "I was
correct in my judgement because as you can plainly see he is now
serving time in prison."

-- Curt Roelle









--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: kadie@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Re: Display of nudes
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:37:42 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: silverm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Jeff Silverman)
Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:23:21 GMT

I am the step parent of 2 adolescents.  Sometimes, the boys behave like
adolescent jerks.  Sometimes, you have to tell the adolescent jerks that they
are behaving like adolescent jerks.

I suspect, based on my own remembereances of adolscence, that I did some
pretty dumb things.  Sometimes, I figured out for myself that what I did was
dumb, and sometimes, somebody helped me figure it out.

For example, the TECO command JEFF SILVERMAN will cause a DECsystem-10
to crash.  The first time I did it, it was completely unexpected.  The fifth
time I did it, it was a dumb thing to do.  People began to tell me that 
this was a dumb thing to do.  I haven't done it since (hopefully, somebody
fixed that bug).

Jeff Silverman, Boeing Commercial Airplane.

--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [eff.mail.libadmin]  academic computing
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,eff.mail.libadmin
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:31:26 GMT

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: eff.mail.libadmin
From: P_PARTELLO@UNHH.UNH.EDU
Subject:  academic computing
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 04:24:54 GMT

I am interested in the various structures for academic computing, esp. as
it relates to small-medium institutions.  Do people think the Columbia
model, with a vice president for information systems, works?  How about
a merger between the library and academic computing?  I would like to hear
about structures that are in place now and the success rate.  I would be
happy to summarize if people respond directly to me.

Peggie Partello
Keene State College, NH
P_PARTELLO@UNHH.UNH.EDU
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.admin.policy,alt.censorship
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Re: Enforcement, Selection, and on-the-fly policy making
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:00:04 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
From: S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Subject: Re: Enforcement, Selection, and on-the-fly policy making
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:09:45 GMT

In <BETSYS.92Oct8122503@ra.cs.umb.edu> betsys@cs.umb.edu writes:

>    There's another thing about these threads that is bothering me; the
>  implication that policies can't be made or modified on the fly, that
>  only written-in-stone policies are fair.

I agree, but you have to consider the limits of on-the-fly decisions,
however. I assume you would not justify the ad-hoc taking out of
entire services with this reason. (I suspect you wouldn't *do* that in
the first place.)

>...
>    Keeping rules simple has the consequence that interpretation of the
>  rules falls to the management more frequently. A rule of "no
>  interfering with other users" leaves room for interpretation;

It even leaves room for discussion between managers and users...

>...
>    But Yecccch! Who wants to live with that many rules? As it is, we've
>  asked three students in two years to change their .plan files, out of
>  about 500. Everyone is happy (at our site anyway; not everyone on the

And you have settled with them? You seem to have exactly the thing
many sites lack most: a good climate of the management-user
relationship.

>...
>    Meanwhile, I don't think we are confusing management with
>  "benevolent dictatorship."

Makes me happy to read that there are still people that reasonable. I
fully agree.

MfG,
        Olaf
-- 
    o     Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student - univ of karlsruhe - germany
 _ /<_    s_titz@iravcl.ira.uka.de - uknf@dkauni2.bitnet - praetorius@irc
(_)>(_)   +49-721-60439 - did i forget something?
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. - Shakespeare, Caesar
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:45:57 GMT
Organization: The Puzzle Palace, UKentucky

kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>This rule is almost certainly unconstitutionally vague. The
>alternative is a nonrule rule. For example, a draft policy for
>University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences, says:
>
>   "You are reminded that the University does have policies against
>    racism, sexism, and sexual harassment; if necessary, you may
>    direct your problems to the appropriate University office."
>

While such a positive mention from Carl is certainly flattering (*grin*),
I think the old saw about "being associated with your hostname" is being
reinforced.

My draft policy is for UK ENGINEERING, not Math Sciences.  I only use
Math Sciences systems to read/post news, but many (MANY!) people seem
to think that I speak for the Math Sciences department, even after re-
peated reminders to the contrary.

Those of you who believe that your hostname is irrelevant, take note;
you ARE associated with the system(s) you use.

I guess I need to write an auto-disclaimer.....8)

--Wes

-- 
MORGAN@UKCC         |       Wes Morgan       |        ...!ukma!ukecc!morgan 
morgan@ms.uky.edu   | Engineering  Computing |   morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
morgan@engr.uky.edu | University of Kentucky | JWMorgan@dockmaster.ncsc.mil
  Mailing list for AT&T StarServer S/E  - starserver-request@engr.uky.edu
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,misc.legal,alt.censorship,alt.society.civil-liberty
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Enforcement, Selection, and on-the-fly policy making
Date: 9 Oct 92 00:16:24 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
Subject: Enforcement, Selection, and on-the-fly policy making
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:25:03 GMT


  There's another thing about these threads that is bothering me; the
implication that policies can't be made or modified on the fly, that
only written-in-stone policies are fair.
  I am a manager. I make policy decisions all the time, often standing
on one foot. This is what I get paid to do; someone has to make
decisions. Trying to write every small policy down can lead to the
situation where you have rule books which are hundreds of pages long
and where even the most trivial situations are covered by masses of
rules. 
  Keeping rules simple has the consequence that interpretation of the
rules falls to the management more frequently. A rule of "no
interfering with other users" leaves room for interpretation;
itemizing possible ways of interference could run into the dozens of
pages. 
  Take this plan thing. Right now we have no written rule on .plan
files, and an unwritten policy that they not be obscene and that they
not interfere with others. If we itemized this, we could run on for
pages and pages about flow control, ascii sequences, buffer overflow,
obscenity trials...and end up with a much less comfortable situation
where instead of a few extreme cases, every user was under scrutiny.
It might be "fair" in the sense that BANNING .plan files would apply
equally to all users. It might be enforceable, if I said "plan files
must contain only a subset of the following categories of information
appropriate to a telephone service....")
  But Yecccch! Who wants to live with that many rules? As it is, we've
asked three students in two years to change their .plan files, out of
about 500. Everyone is happy (at our site anyway; not everyone on the
net is pleased that we are happy.) I don't have tenure; if the
university is unhappy with my management style they could ask me to
modify it and/or they could fire me and replace me with someone else. 
  Meanwhile, I don't think we are confusing management with
"benevolent dictatorship."
--
System Administrator                  Internet: betsys@cs.umb.edu
MACS Dept, UMass/Boston               BITNET:ESCHWARTZ%UMBSKY.DNET@NS.UMB.EDU
100 Morrissy Blvd                     Staccato signals
Boston, MA 02125-3393                      of constant information....
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.admin.policy,alt.censorship,soc.college
From: "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@spinner.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
X-Quoted: 42%
Reply-To: mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:50:28 -0500

Thus said dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis):
>In article <1992Oct14.034619.6797@news.cs.indiana.edu> mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu writes:
>>
>>The library example can be taken a little further and leave things
>>clearer.  If someone looks over someone else's shoulder in a computer
>>lab and sees nude photos, how is that different from looking over
>>someone's shoulder in a University library and seeing pictures in the
>>copy of, say, Playboy which (s)he is reading?
>>
>   I think this is a pretty weak argument. I think a 2ftX2ft workstation
>screen is a bit ore eyecatching than the content of a person's book in
>a library.

I've never used a workstation screen that large.  All the workstation
screens I use are smaller than an open magazine (which has a diagonal
measurement of about 20 1/4")  Does Columbia really have that kind of
money?

However, your point is taken; workstation screens are more captivating,
at least to some.  I'm not sure whether it's because they're glowing,
because they're vertical, because they're still novel and nifty to many,
or what.  Although I'm often annoyed if someone thinks (s)he has a god
given right to examine the contents of my screen.

>   The basic point is OK, though. It would not be acceptable (I think) for
>me to open a Playboy in a library, and leave it upright on the table beside
>me. 

Probably not.  However, few would say that the librarian should be
responsible for policing who has this potentially offensive material, or
that the library should not carry Playboy because someone could utilize
it in this way.  The basic point is that it isn't the sysadmins job to
do this either.
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen    mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu    MIME & RIPEM accepted
Kirk:  I won't hurt you.
Alien: You hit me!
Kirk:  Well, I won't hit you again.
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Originator: kadie@eff.org
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:40:36 GMT

dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

[...]
>    I'm a little concerned about the words 'appears'. Isn't it true that
>for it to be harrasment, there must be either a complaint, or a situation
>where it is obvious (such as a number of people running acreaming out of
>the terminal room).
[...]

I think you are right. At my school (U. of Illinois at U-C), the policy
says:

"Individuals who believe they have been harassed sexually should first
seek the advice of their academic dean, their supervisor, the dean of
students, the assistant chancellor and director of affirmative action,
the director of affirmative action -- academic, the directory of
affirmative action -- staff, or the ombudsman, in order to determine
whether there can be a satisfactory informal resolution to the matter.
If such is not possible, individuals should utilize appropriate and
existing grievance procedures for claims of discrimination. The person
of initial contact (one of the campus representative mentioned above)
will advise on steps to be taken to begin this process.  Grievants
shall follow procedures outlined in the following documents for the
groups indicated: [List of procedures document and where to find them
for faculty, students, etc.]"
 
- Carl
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
 =kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:20:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.153735.28835@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

>In article <1992Oct14.034619.6797@news.cs.indiana.edu> mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu writes:
>
>>The library example can be taken a little further and leave things
>>clearer.  If someone looks over someone else's shoulder in a computer
>>lab and sees nude photos, how is that different from looking over
>>someone's shoulder in a University library and seeing pictures in the
>>copy of, say, Playboy which (s)he is reading?
>
>   I think this is a pretty weak argument. I think a 2ftX2ft workstation
>screen is a bit ore eyecatching than the content of a person's book in
>a library.

There is an Audio-Visual lab in Frost Library at Amherst.  If I need
to watch a film for a class, a videotape is placed in the A/V lab and
I can go down and watch it (with headphones) on one of the TV sets
there.  If I were to watch something sexually explicit, whether or not
for class, would that constitute an offensive working environment?  I
don't think it would.  The difference between this and the case of the
GIF on the workstation screen is minimal (in fact, I think the film
would be more distracting).

>If I leave the playboy open so that every woman who
>walks by must invariably see it, then that would be a basis for a claim of
>harrasment.

I don't think that would be so unless you took pains to place the
magazine in such a way that it specifically confronted everyone
passing through that area, which I don't think "lying face open on a
table" qualifies as.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You are just naive and repressed because
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /  penis envy is here and it's now and it's
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  all around you." -- Neal C. Wickham
From: mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: Attacking The Messenger
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:45:13 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire



                            ATTACKING THE MESSENGER

               It has been my experience for a long time that most 
          people are TOO IMMATURE to handle the Truth about ANY-thing.  
          They prefer OFFICIAL LIES and HALF TRUTHS, in place of the 
          unofficial Truth; it makes them feel more "secure", like a 
          child's blanket.

               Whenever they are confronted with information and 
          supporting evidence that contradicts their established belief 
          system, they FREAK OUT and even ATTACK or try to SILENCE The 
          Messenger.  They did it to Jesus Christ, Galileo, and many 
          other great People.

               "The more things change, the more they STAY THE SAME!"

               They should INSTEAD read FOR THEMSELVES the Messenger's 
          cited SOURCES.


               In spite of the APPEARANCE (ILLUSION) of advancement and 
          sophistication, modern society is STILL IN THE DARK AGES!


                                            Robert E. McElwaine
                                            B.S., Physics and Astronomy
                                            UW-EC


Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@mango.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
X-Quoted: 58%
Reply-To: mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:15:55 -0500

Thus said kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie):
>Question [inspired by an email message]:
>
>What should sys admins do about nude pictures and displays of nude
>pictures in public terminal rooms? Is a special rule banning such
>pictures and/or displays needed?
>
>Tenative Answer: 
>
>The problem is not the pictures themselves, but rather their display.
>By way of analogy, your library likely contains thousands of nude
>photos (many academic libraries, for example, subscribe to _Playboy_).
>The existence of these pictures on university property is not
>harassment because no one is compelled to keep looking at the
>pictures.
>
>If that same _Playboy_ pictures, however, were *displayed* in a
>university office or lab where employees or students must work, the
>person displaying the picture might be guilty of sexually harassing a
>person in the office or lab. Likewise the *display* of nude pictures
>in a public terminal room (or university office) might be found to be
>sexual harassment.

(The following is based on the assumption that the content of the
pictures, rather than their size or utilization of resources, is at
issue.)

The library example can be taken a little further and leave things
clearer.  If someone looks over someone else's shoulder in a computer
lab and sees nude photos, how is that different from looking over
someone's shoulder in a University library and seeing pictures in the
copy of, say, Playboy which (s)he is reading?

I believe that any attempt by a librarian to ban the latter would be
absurd; it's clearly censorship to say that, although the library
carries X, you are not allowed to read it.
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen    mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu    MIME & RIPEM accepted


xhost = "X Hanging Open, Security Terrible"
From: kadie@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [comp.admin.policy] Re: Display of nudes
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:38:23 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.admin.policy
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Newsgroups: comp.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Display of nudes
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:13:59 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.133020@iphase.com> plarkin@iphase.com (Patrick Larkin) writes:
>What is the general consensus in the Commercial environment regarding the use 
>of storage resources for the purpose of saving images of what could be 
>considered "offensive" material?
>
>My concern is two-fold:  Disk Space usage and a Sys Admin's removal on sight 
>of such images; and another employee bopping around looking at images in say 
>/usr/local/gifs and stumbling across something he/she finds offensive.

My opinion, as a part-time sysadmin:

Public *display* of computer images is usually covered under the same rules as 
posters, calendars, etc.  If someone else walks in and sees it, and is offended,
they have grounds for a complaint; continual offenses are grounds for removal
of the display program and/or image file(s).

If the files are simply present, and nobody has complained about viewing of the
images, then the only rationale for removal is the (usually) high volume of 
such files when disk space is low.  In those cases, a disk-space quota will
server to limit the usage.  I do not feel that the mere presence of an image
file can be considered *offensive*, if non-company-related text files are
allowed on the machines, since they can contain passages that some employee
might find equally offensive (quotes from Rushdie's "Satanic Verses", for
example).

-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk