From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: Again, Where Is The Logic In The Greek Reasoning? It Is 'Istanbul.'
Date: 26 Jul 92 03:14:51 GMT





<6785@charon.cwi.nl>
dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)

 >>                                           Everyone knows that New 
 >> York City was once called 'New Amsterdam' but Dutch people do not 
 >> persist on calling it that today.

>Well it was 'Nieuw Amsterdam', we exchanged it for Surinam, and we got a
>'Nieuw Amsterdam' overthere.  It is better not to have two 'Nieuw
>Amsterdams' (although there is also one in the Netherlands).

Is this of some significance? 

> >                                   The name of Stalingrad too is 
> > long gone, replaced by Volgagrad.

>There is a deeper reason for that.  Perhaps the people did not like
>to be remembered to Stalin?

Sorry, this is insufficient for the argument at hand.

> >                                   China's Peking traded its name 
> > for Beiging long ago.

>Yup, but I do know very few people that do *not* call it Peking.
>Yes, the name in the papers is Beijing currently (not Beiging), but
>nobody uses it otherwise.  The reason btw. is that Beijing is much

So, what's your point?

> >                       Ciudad Trujillo of the Dominican Republic 
> > is now Santa Domingo.

>The Stalingrad/Volgagrad rule applies here (called after the dictator
>Rafael Leonidas Trujillo Molina).

Again, you are tilting at windmills.

> >                       Zimbabve's old colonial capital Salisburry 
> > became Harrare.

>Hasan, Hasan, your spelling!  Zimbabwe, Salisbury, Harare.  Although
>less strong the Stalingrad rule applies (called after Lord Salisbury).

I expect better from you, 'Winter.' No, I take that back, I don't

> >                 These changes have all been accepted officially 
> > by everyone in the world.

>I do not understand this at all.  I have never officially accepted those
>changes.  

As usual, you have been arguing with yourself. I never said a word
about you 'officially' accepting those changes. Look at 'Greeks.'

>Countries in general do not talk about the names of towns within
>other countries.  There are no official bodies that would accept such
>changes of name.

Here, you descend into total inanity. Try to send a letter to 
'Con*(whatever).'

> >                           But, Greeks are still determined on calling 
> > the Turkish Istanbul by the name of 'Cons*(whatever).'

>Well, the French still call Regensburg by the name Ratisbon (which is btw.
>of Celtish origin, so that name comes from the time there were Celts in
>that region).  Germans still use (at least last time I heard on their

And the entire world (except Greeks) would call 'Istanbul' by the name of
'Istanbul.'

>So, what is in a name?

Why not call 'Winter' by the name of 'Summer,' then?

>I must admit that the Turkish names of some countries: Arnavutluk, Habesistan,
>Cebelitarik, Yunanistan and Fas gave me also some problems.  

Can't you see a little difference in terms of culpability?

>Also: Tayvan,
>they do not like that at all.  And in support to some claim by somebody
>that Turkish frequently prefixes an I in front of leading consonant clusters:
>you have Isvicre and Isvec.  (And, yes, this text lacks diacretical marks.)

And there is treasure there.

> > How can one explain this total intransigence? What makes Greeks
> > so different from other mortals?

>Not at all.  Other mortals do exactly the same, as shown above.  

Nope. The entire world (except Greeks) would call it by the name of 
'Istanbul.' There are places we all come from - deep-rooty-common
places - that make us who we are. 

>And, oh,
>btw, this also applies to the name of the republic of Macedonia, which
>ought to be rcognized asap.

It's the same story.

>BTW, could you supply me with a photocopy of:
>        Bekir S. Erdogan, 'Istanbul Destanlar Icinde,' Baha Basimevi,
>        Istanbul, 1956, p. 28.
>I have not been able to aquire it locally.

Too bad. Try:

1. 'Baha Basimevi/Istanbul.' (By the way, don't forget to order 
    'Bir Yagmur Basladi' and 'Dostlar Basina,' as well.
2. 'Rob Milson.'


Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

Xref: sparky soc.culture.turkish:7993 soc.culture.greek:6762