HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: macbeth@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Ryan Mercer Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Applejack (was My Dog Ate It!)
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:40:32 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In article <1dto3cINNk1b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill) writes:
>A friendly warning: this is *extremely* illegal.  It's equivalent, legally,
>to making moonshine.  [stuff about who not to tell & consequences deleted]
>-- 
>Dave Sill

In regards to the above anyone interested in trying it may want to check out
their local laws.  I believe in some states making or brewing alcoholic
beverages for home use only is O.K. if you don't try to sell it.
But then again I've been known to be wrong (freguently)!

Kathy Fitch-Davis
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dvandrei@desperado.lerc.nasa.gov (Don Van Drei)
Subject: Could it be the water? 
Reply-To: dvandrei@desperado
Organization: NASA LEWIS RESEARCH CENTER
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:37:17 GMT

	I recently purchased 2 culture from Sourdough International
one the Saudi Arabian had almost a cheeszy taste but didn't rise very well.
I used bottled spring water to activate it, a week later I pulled it out
of the fridge and proofed it with regular tap water.  Now the cheeszy smell
is gone and also most of the taste, but it did rise well.  I have 7 cultures
in the fridge now in mason jars with caps on loosely.  Is it the water? 
Or it the climate in the fridge mixing up my cultures? 
  	
-- 

-----------------------------------------------
Donald Van Drei      NASA Lewis Research Center
dvandrei@desperado.lerc.nasa.gov (216) 433-9089 
-----------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche)
Subject: Re: Too much sugar
Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:04:44 GMT

In article <BxzzMw.Gwz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
feldstei@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ronald F. Feldstein) writes: 

>A common technique for making sugar available to the starter is the
>use of a small amount of "boiled" flour. [instructions for how to
>make zavarka omitted] It is known as "zavarka" in Russian.  Is there a
>standard English term?

The traditional San Francisco sourdough is made without the addition
of any sugar, although small quantities are often added to less than
perfectly traditional breads.  There is some reading on the topic in
_Cereal Chemistry_ 49: 86-91, 1972, although this isn't the most
exciting article I have ever read.  One thing that they do is incubate
flour and water at 75-80c in the absence of any yeast or bacteria.
They saw a significant increase in the amount of sugar in the mixture,
so *something* is definitely converting more complex carbohydrates
into simpler carbohydrates (i.e. sugars).  They used rather long
incubation times, on the order of 6h, but presumably something similar
is going on in the Russian process.  To the best of my knowlege this
method is not used in the San Francisco sourdough process.  I don't
know about other sourdough processes.


-- 
-------
Charles F. Delwiche			(812) 855-2549
Dept. of Biology, Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: stullcw@stull.b10.ingr.com (Chuck Stull)
Subject: Re: FAQ's
Organization: Intergraph Corp., Huntsville, AL
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:19:31 GMT

I hope it is posted, or I'll have to do the "me to" message.
-- 
                                             Chuck Stull
                                             stullcw@stull.b10.ingr.com
"Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way"
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: FAQ's
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:24:38 CST


Let me post instruction on accessing the archives, and then if several
people still have trouble I will post them again to the group.  

Archives and FAQ files are available via anonymous ftp from ftp.ils.nwu.edu
under the pub/sourdough directory.  There are several FAQ files of interest.
Beware the recipes FAQ is a small book now.  It is also the file with 
starter recipes.  The file FAQ.culture.bank has information about obtaining
comercial starters or swapping starters with other group members.

good luck


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.



Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Not sour enough!
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:06:43 GMT

In article <By6H4C.Hzw@fc.sde.hp.com> fritz@fc.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz) writes:
>I know this gets covered every few weeks, but I still haven't figured it out...
>
<procedure deleted -- long proofing time, not sour enough>

What you did looks fine but I think the main contributor to sourness
is the culture, not risings times/etc.  I have the Russian culture
which I feed only bread flour.  It makes a really sour loaf, 
white, wheat, or rye.  (To make non-white bread starters, begin
with "normal" starter then infect water/rye flour mixture with a
tblsp or so of the active culture).  If you don't have a sour
culture to begin with, it just won't make sour bread.  Proofing
times will tweak the sourness up and down a little, but won't turn
a Goldrush starter into a Russian starter.

Also, new cultures are usually not as sour as when they mature.
My culture has gotten sourer as time goes on and I believe 
many other people here have found that to be the case.  So if
you just got your culture maybe you just need a little 
patience :)  

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Not sour enough!
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:58:00 GMT

In article <By6uAz.M5r@fc.sde.hp.com> fritz@fc.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz) writes:
>And here's the latest installment of the "Gary and Julie" show... :-)

Oh dear.  I hope I don't drop the ball with this post :)
>
>Julie Kangas (julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote:
>: How much sugar did you use? (I don't remember what you said)  Sugar 
>: will definitely mask the taste of the sourness.  I know Wood's 
>: 'world bread' recipe has sugar but not enough to mask the sourness.
>
>I was roughly following the world bread recipe (other than the variation
>of not doing the "culture-prep" stage), but not measuring very carefully.  
>I put in maybe 2T of sugar, as it calls for.  I *think* the other ingredients 
>were roughly in proportion for the recipe.  Maybe I should cut back on sugar.
>But then won't the yeasties get hungry and have trouble raising the bread?

I really don't think the 2T of sugar is too much and I'd be afraid
to try a lower amount.  It might be time to grit your teeth and
get a more sour culture.  

As another idea, you might try using more culture in the bread.
It will rise faster so watch it.  But it might make it a little
more sour.

>
>: (I've occasionally 'walked-in' on it while it was in it's puffy mode.  
>: I just discretely shut the oven door and quietly walk away.)  
>
>As long as it's happening among consenting yeasts in the privacy
>of your own oven.  :-)

Yes, but how does it affect family values? :)

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
From: emetzger@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Milk and Beer Bread
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:53:38 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

Two comments:

   Thereis been some mention of adding milk to starters, anbd this
gets me a little worried. Whenever I put milk into a bread, I always
scald it, because I have been told (and experience hasborn eit out
every time) that something in unscalded milk kills the culture. Do
other people find this to be so?

   A second comment: if I can be permitted to combine two topics,
I've found that making bread with dark beer, heated uhntil it gets
smelly, a good 'substitute' (well, not really a substitute) for
sourdough bread when you don;'t have a culture handy.

Ernie metzger
emetzger@uk.ac.ox.vax
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Applejack (was My Dog Ate It!)
Date: 17 Nov 1992 14:10:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, macbeth@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Ryan Mercer Davis) says:
>In article <1dto3cINNk1b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill) writes:
>>
>>A friendly warning: this is *extremely* illegal.  It's equivalent, legally,
>>to making moonshine.  [stuff about who not to tell & consequences deleted]
>
>In regards to the above anyone interested in trying it may want to check out
>their local laws.  I believe in some states making or brewing alcoholic
>beverages for home use only is O.K. if you don't try to sell it.
>But then again I've been known to be wrong (freguently)!

Note that I didn't say anything about the legality of making hard cider. 
What I'm talking about is making hard liquor by concentration--whether by
distillation or freezing.  Sure, it's legal to make beer/winer/cider/mead/
etc.  in most states (I think only two don't allow it).  Federal law makes
it illegal to concentrate alcoholic berverages without a permit from the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF).  You don't even need to
sell it to break the law--*making* it is illegal.
-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: fritz@fc.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz)
Subject: Re: Not sour enough!
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:43:46 GMT

Julie Kangas (julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote:
: One other thing, in your first post you mentioned a 'froth'.  When
: proofing, the culture should go through a stage when it's very
: puffy and bubbly (this is when mine tries to set up a puppet
: government in the kitchen).  It then subsides leaving a few
: bubbles on top (but still puffy inside).  

Really?  I thought it was GOOD that it was still going nuts after
13 hours.

: Usually, the culture 
: is used at this stage.  If you use it before it will probably rise
: ok but won't be as sour as it could be.   If you use it later
: the yeast may not be as active but it will be more sour.  

Hm.  Makes it sorta tough to schedule things if you don't know when
the sponge is going to settle down.  As it was I was tied to the house
until 5pm yesterday.  (Partly my fault, since I'd run out of flour
when restarting the start the night before and couldn't make the dough
until 11am, but still...)

Out of curiosity, I tried tasting the frothy sponge.  It was VERY tart.
I figured the lactobacilli were going nuts along with the yeast, and
I was surprised when it turned out so mild.  I guess adding all the
flour & etc to make the dough diluted the sour, and it didn't get
much of a chance to recover while it was rising (~4+ hours).

: I've let mine go for over 24 hours (at a low temperature though) and still
: had bread that rose very well and had a *most* sour taste. 

I assume the 24hrs was the sponge/culture stage, and then you fed it more
flour &etc to wake it up and get it to rise?

Gary
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?)
Subject: Re: rookie questions
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:36:30 GMT

In article <43610004@nmdoc1.sr.hp.com> jeffs@nmdoc1.sr.hp.com (Jeff Silva) writes:
>Hi
>
>I just recently inherited a bread making machine and am still a rookie,
>and was wondering if someone could answer a few questions.

ok

> 
>My Dad used this machine once to make french bread. It didn't taste like
>french bread to me. I mean, it tasted ok, but it was more like white
>bread. Does sourdough starter improve french bread consistency? 

What gives french bread that "french bread taste", is the fact that the
bread is made from only white flour (bread flour preferred), yeast,
salt, and water.  It's a great bread to learn with!  The crust is a whole
'nuther issue, but it's made by incorporating water/steam into the skin
of the loaf while it's baking.  A spray bottle full of cold water, and
a pan of boiling water in the bottom of the oven works well...don't ask
me what to do with a bread machine, I've never tried one.

>
>How long can a sourdough starter/batter last in the frig, and do you
>have to feed it?

Well, if you interpret "lasting" to mean "revivable", then it can last
for many months, i.e. 6 months or so.  If you mean "lasting" to mean
"ready for baking", you may argue that it only lasts a couple of days.
The normal sequence of events for baking with sourdough is to 1) make
sure it's fed once a week or so, and 2) always feed it to revive it 
just before you bake with it.  Remember that 'sourdough' is a blend of
flour and water (a growth medium), wild yeast (the leavener), and 
lacto bacilli (flavor producers).  Obviously these little critters need
to be fed to stay alive!  Just to save a little space here, I'd suggest
getting the FAQ files available by ftp from ftp.ils.nwu.edu in directory
/pub/sourdough.  Or contact me offline by emailing me at briand@cv.hp.com
or dixon@spot.colorado.edu, and I'll give more thorough advice to you :).
>
>If I use the timer feature on the bread machine, how long can the
>yeast sit in the liquid without being ruined?

Good question!  Based on non-bread machine experience, I'd say not to let
the yeast sit in the water for more than 20-30 minutes if you've added any
sugars or sweeteners.  If you haven't added any sugars, then it ought to
last longer.  But really, you shouldn't wait more than 10 minutes or so 
before you add more flour and liquids anyway, right?  Play it safe!  (I'm
assuming you're asking about commercial yeast, since sourdough is usually
added as a batter.)

Brian D.


Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: Applejack (was My Dog Ate It!)
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:24:55 GMT

In article <1e9810INNaf6@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> macbeth@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Ryan Mercer Davis) writes:
>
>In article <1dto3cINNk1b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill) writes:
>>A friendly warning: this is *extremely* illegal.  It's equivalent, legally,
>>to making moonshine.  [stuff about who not to tell & consequences deleted]
>>-- 
>>Dave Sill
>
>In regards to the above anyone interested in trying it may want to check out
>their local laws.  I believe in some states making or brewing alcoholic
>beverages for home use only is O.K. if you don't try to sell it.
>But then again I've been known to be wrong (freguently)!

Yep, if its illegal nobody better tell all of us over in rec.crafts.brewing ;*)

It is legal in MOST states to make limited quantities of beer and wine
at home for personal consumption.  It IS illegal to make DISTILLED spirits
(ie: moonshine) at home.  I forget what the exact ammounts are, I think
it is 100 gallons per person of legal drinking age per household, with a
maximum of 200 gallons per year (this is for beer).  Lots of people DO
make homemade cider (alcoholic), and if you want to know more about how
to do it I would suggest posting a question to rec.crafts.brewing.

Guido

P.S.  All of the above only applies to the U.S., although I do know that
homebrewing is legal in Canada and I would be shocked if its not legal
in the U.K.
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: msr7@po.CWRU.Edu (Mark S. Rzeszotarski)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: sour-sour
Date: 19 Nov 1992 13:20:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Regarding proofing the dough for 12 hours.....
	I MEANT to say that I prepare a sponge (starter plus 2 cups
water plus 3 cups flour) and proof the sponge for 12 hours.  The
final dough rises for 1 1/2 to 3 hours typically before going into
the oven.

Regarding 3-4 days between experiments....
	I made some excellent honey white bread last night using the
Giza culture.  I unfortunately had to put the boys to bed just after
I took it out of the oven.  When I returned, the fiendish butter
slatherers had polished off 1/2 of a loaf.  This bread will not be
around long.  It also made some fabulous toast this morning.  BTW,
I "stole" 1 1/2 cups of the sponge to make some sourdough pancakes
which also turned out excellent.  Had to add some more flour and
water to the sponge and let it work a few more hours before I made 
the bread.

Regarding building your own proofing box...
	I will submit plans on how to build one after I complete
my next one.  I often bake for crowds, and I want to put together
a large one so I can rise large loaves and have multiple batches
going at the same time.
-- 
Mark S. Rzeszotarski, Ph.D. (msr7@po.cwru.edu) CWRU Biomed. Eng.
Medical Physicist, The Mt. Sinai Medical Center, Cleveland, OH, USA
"So long and thanks for all the Saccharomyces Exiguus!"
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Subject: Re: Dutch Ovens (was: Say "Bo-Deen"!)
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:57:51 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Nov9.132616.19033@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cray.com
(David Adams) writes:
|>In article 1@cubldr.colorado.edu, matthews_k@cubldr.colorado.edu () writes:
|>|In article <1992Nov5.093912.25091@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cray.com
(David Adams) writes:
|>|> In article Bry@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca, molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom
Molnar) writes:
|>|> 
|>|> |culture.  I wish I could get my crusts to be as good as that on the
|>|> |Tasajara loaf.  I must buy their bread book next time I see it

(Attribution! argh :-)

I have the Tassajara Bread Book.  I'm convinced that some of the breads
are leavened with pure enlightenment - or the kitchen is permeated with
wonderful yeast.  The unyeasted, no soda, breads that the writer claims
rise wonderfully, for instance.  

Maybe I should culture up a couple of gallons of sourdough and paint the
walls with it...
                                
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	     Only twelve more shopping days 'till St. Andrew's Day!
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: fritz@fc.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz)
Subject: Not sour enough!
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 16:43:22 GMT

I know this gets covered every few weeks, but I still haven't figured it out...

I just made another batch of bread yesterday.  I'd fed the starter about
a week before, and it was in fine fettle.  At the end of a 13-hour proof
I didn't have a batter, I had *froth*.  It was like soupy merengue!
The best proof I've had yet.  Problem was, the final bread wasn't all that
sour.  The whole house had a WONDERFUL sour aroma, but the bread itself
is pretty tame.  I know I can stoke up the sour by adding rye, but since
I'm doing a one-proof system here it would be tough to proof with rye
and still have "pure" starter to save for the next batch.  Besides, I'd
like to be able to make traditional white sourdough, just with more sour.

I know longer proofs are supposed to help.  All told, this batch proofed
and rose for about 16-18 hours.  I'd think that would be enough!

Here's what I did:

  1. Pull starter from fridge, add ~3C flour, 2C water.  Proof at 85-90degF
     for 13 hours overnight.

  2. Add flour/salt/butter/milk/etc to resulting froth.  Knead, etc.
     Rise until more than doubled -- maybe 3-4 hours.  Punch down,
     knead for another few minutes, shape into loaves.

  3. Rise for another hour or so.  Bake.

The loaves were very nice, light, and spongy.  But the sour was pretty weak.
I guess my yeasties are happy but the lactobacilli are lazy.  Any suggestions
for whipping the little buggers into shape?

FYI, my "rising chamber" is under the sink.  There's a hot-water dispenser
in there that helps warm it up a tad, but to bring things up to the 85degF
range I put an electric heating pad under the bowl of dough.  This means
there's a fair amount of temperature variation between the bottom and
the top.  Could this affect things?

Also, I've noticed that the sour seems more pronounced in the crust,
and seems less noticeable when the bread is hot out of the oven.
Is this my imagination, or have others noticed this too?

Gary
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: GOMBERG%UCSFVM.BITNET@CORNELLC.edu (Dave Gomberg)
Subject: Goldrush correction
Reply-To: GOMBERG%UCSFVM.BITNET@CORNELLC.edu
Date: 20 Nov 92 10:36:59 CST

Goldrush Enterprises DOES NOT EXIST at the SSF address listed.  I went
there one day just to look, and no one ever heard of them.  They are
not in the phone book either.   Dave

Dave Gomberg    GOMBERG@UCSFVM  Internet node UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU  (415)731-7793
Seven Gateview Court, San Francisco CA 94116-1941



Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Not sour enough!
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:31:14 GMT

In article <By6L42.JA4@fc.sde.hp.com> fritz@fc.sde.hp.com (Gary Fritz) writes:
>Julie Kangas (julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov) wrote:
>: Proofing times will tweak the sourness up and down a little, but won't turn
>: a Goldrush starter into a Russian starter.
>
>Right, Julie -- I forgot to mention I'm working with a Goldrush starter.
>I'm not looking for something that eats holes in the starter jar :-),
>just a bit more zing.

What's wrong with holes in your starter jar? :)
>
>: Also, new cultures are usually not as sour as when they mature.
>: So if you just got your culture maybe you just need a little patience :)  
>
>Well, this isn't exactly new -- it's about, oh, 6 months old or more?
>But I haven't been feeding it every week.  I'd say it's gone through
>maybe a dozen or 15 feeding cycles.

Based on my culture, 15 cycles should have seen it too its final
sourness (which can change later depending on your environment).
One other thing, in your first post you mentioned a 'froth'.  When
proofing, the culture should go through a stage when it's very
puffy and bubbly (this is when mine tries to set up a puppet
government in the kitchen).  It then subsides leaving a few
bubbles on top (but still puffy inside).  Usually, the culture 
is used at this stage.  If you use it before it will probably rise
ok but won't be as sour as it could be.   If you use it later
the yeast may not be as active but it will be more sour.  I've let
mine go for over 24 hours (at a low temperature though) and still
had bread that rose very well and had a *most* sour taste. 

Another solution might be to use something between the Russian 
and Goldrush cultures.  Maybe someone who's tried a lot of cultures
can post a "sourness scale" for them.

Julie
DISCLAIMER:  All opinions here belong to my cat and no one else