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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:29:24 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject: Re: why gold - money qualities
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Dec 22, 92 3:04 pm

>> >[Here are the qualities money should have:]
>> >-portability
>> >-indestructibility
>> >-homogeneity
>> >-divisibility
>> >-cognizability
>> >-relative stability of value compared to other commodities
>>
>> Hmm.  Indestructibility seems overrated given "replacement".  (It
>> doesn't have to be infinitely divisible either.)
>>
>> I do find it interesting that "can't be created at will" isn't
>> on the list.

relative stability of value is enough. If it can be creates at will,
it won't be stable at all.


>> Consider the effect of "New World exploration" on the economies of
>> Spain and Portugal.  Suddenly they had tons more gold than before.
>> Were they richer?  All they really got was the ability to do buy that
>> they couldn't afford before stuff from people who didn't have access
>> to gold, but too much of that, and they destroy their own productive
>> capacity.
>>
>> -andy
>> --

Gold rushes produce less instability than government decisions, and they
are somewhat expected.

Gold is not a perfect money, but is still better than gov't controlled money.

Caius.
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:08:11 CST
From:         "rufus t. firefly" <U9AA@SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: freedom from discrimination
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> > I leave the enjoyable task of puncturing Rufus's misconceptions
> > about affirmative action to Peter. Tag.
>
> How about that?  Already done :-).
>
> (Later addition: I see that rtf has posted some more questions.  They
> will have to wait until I have a bit more time to answer them--maybe
> later, more likely tomorrow)
>
> I really AM beginning to feel that this is more of a task for a
> folklorist, though.
>
> Best,
> Peter
>

  don't worry about it, peter. if snide, patronizing attacks are the
best i can hope for from you, maybe i should look some other place
for a reasonable explanation of why one would favor discrimination
instead of legal equality. after all, asking you to explain what you
believe and why might prove difficult, if not dangerous to your ideas
about discrimination in general.

  a person's color (or sex, or whatever) should not be the basis of
discrimination by the law. aa does discriminate on those things, and
so i am against it. what ever happened to the ideal of a color-blind
legal system?

rtf
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From: DEMON@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU (The Integral Differential)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: The right to discriminate, the privilege to drive...
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:21:39 GMT
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>This is referring to Brett's claim that anti-discrimination laws can
>be used to _limit_ minority hiring:
>
>>         You're arguing apples and oranges.  To meet EEOC guidelines there
 have
>> to be some minorities.  The quesiton is: how many?  Is the government really
>> letting employers use the law to limit minority employement?
>
>No.  If you can find a verifiable case I'd love to hear about it.  But,

        There are so many people clamoring to volunteer this kind of action :\.

        The whole point is you *can't* prove it unless they confess.

>since some of the criteria that agencies use in judging hiring practices
>include the makeup of the local population, the makeup of the employee
>market for that particular job (which may be local, regional or
>national), and the makeup of the applicant pool, I wouldn't place a bet
>on any answer other than "No."
>Best,
>Peter
>> Brett'

        How about this: can you prove that it doesn't happen?

Brett'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:22:00 CST
From:         TI0PSR1@NIU.BITNET
Subject:      proposals, discoveries, and such

Jamie ... nice work.

For your sake, I hope you are not one of those persons who would ever
argue drug laws should be abolished because they are not "working."

Hopefully, youare not also involved in a line of research which has
to recognize a long standing Supreme Court doctrine of trashing laws
which are "impractical in theory and unworkable in practice."

Other than these small, insignificant considerations ... what a great
sense of humor !


P.S. Ruckman Jr.
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:31:10 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      Re: why gold
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              mcbride" at Dec 21, 92 12:24 pm

>> BTW, if I was to take up the Bank of England on their statement "I
>> promise to pay Bearer on demand the sum of five pounds", what would
>> they give me ?
>>

In the past, a paper banknote was a gold certificate (money substitute).
The promise was what is sounds to be.

Now, the promise is a decoration.

Caius
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:17:40 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      Re: why gold
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Jan 6, 93 7:28 pm

Stephan Melin pisze:

>> Now back to gold as money:
>> Gold would be nothing more than a return to an exchange economy.

One of the purposes of money is STORE OF VALUE. People want to save some of
their earnings to spend them later of invest to earn more. Instability
of value and especially high inflation disrupts this function, resulting
in harm to the economy (that is to our walets)

>> Growth of the economy cannot take place unless a violation of [D1] is
>> encouraged, because the amount of gold stays fixed but the total value of
>> the IOUs increases.

The prices are going down (deflation), but the economy can still grow.
Could you explain why not?


Caius
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:24:40 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      curently rich
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              21, 92 9:51 am

Ramon pisze:
>>
>>        Err, not quite. Socialism is a belief that all men should share more
>> or less equally in the wealth they help to create. In other words, there
>> should be NO POOR PEOPLE. Now, if the currently rich do not want to share
>> their goodies......

In socialism eqality has a priority over wealth. So everybody gets EQUALLY POOR
(Except the "representatives of the working class")

Why should the currently rich share their wealth? They and/or their parents
have worked hard for it, so why should they share?

Caius.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:28:20 CDT
Comments:     Resending note of 06 Jan 93 13:31:53 CDT from <SPRG0002@TULSAJC>
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Uncl: Re: Addiction as Disease

From: sprg0002@tulsajc
*** Resending note of 01/06/93 13:31

From Toddddddddddd
The realization that addiction is a disease is not an attempt by
addicts to shed responsibility.  This approach properly deals with
the problem in physiological and psychological terms, rather than
improperly dealing with it in moral or legal terms.  A person with
a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, even though she never drinks,
may still be referred to as an alcoholic or probable/potential alcoholic.
Even though it's been two years since I decided to deal with my
alcoholism, ...............

From Robert
I agree that some may have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, or
some other similar problem.  I applaud you for having *CHOSEN* to deal
with your problem.  You have shown the good sense to exercise your
free will and have *CHOSEN* not to participate.  Your decision reflects
nicely on the virtues of self-responsibility.

Still, I believe that addiction=disease is more of a ploy than a fact.
Maybe the addicts themselves are not the first ones to use this claim as
an excuse for their lack of control, but regardless of where the tactic
is employed it is still nothing more than a band-aid for the emotional
condition of the addict.  Now I don't mind a little compassion and
understanding but the disease claim provides total innocence and implies
victimization.  These provisions may make the addict feel much better but
I believe they send exactly the *wrong* message to society.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 02:13:00 EDT
From:         CLARK@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject: Re: Bob Packwood - A Bad Boy?

Just a quick question:

        When the allegations against Packwood initially surfaced, he did a lot
of dancing around the issue at first.  He hemmed, he hawed, he hedged.

        Did he actually apologize for his sexually harrassing behavior?

        I thought it was clear he apologized for his initial treatment of the
allegations and those who brought them.  Anyone clear this up?


Thanks.

-T.
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:33:46 CDT
Comments:     Resending note of 07 Jan 93 10:45:44 CDT from <SPRG0002@TULSAJC>
From:         Robert Moss <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      Uncl: Kevorkian Sets Sights on Ohio
Comments: To: politics@ohstvma.bitnet

From:
*** Resending note of 01/07/93 10:45

From Evelyn
I read in the Beacon Journal this morning that Dr. Death himself is
coming to Ohio because the state legislature has permitted assisted
suicide.

Comments?


From Robert

             -----------------------------------------------
             |           Kevorkian Solutions Inc.          |
             |                                             |
             |          "Have Death, will travel"          |
             |                                             |
             |                                             |
             | give us a call, we kill'em all ... BR-549   |
             -----------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:07:29 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      Re: why gold
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              at Jan 6, 93 7:28 pm

Stephan Melin pisze:

>> When the government starts manipulating the money, to cover a deficit,
>> then the voters (hopefully) will kick this bunch of incompetence out of
>> office at the next election.

>> Stephan Melin
>> melin@hlrserv.hlrz.kfa-juelich.de   ||    hkf418@djukfa11.bitnet

Maybe it was true in Germany. Most other countries had high inflations and
elections changed little or nothing.

The problem is the majority of the voters are NOT economists. And majority
of the economists does NOT understand inflation.


Caius
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:59:03 -0600
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Responses to Mideur-L posts on the Balkans, #7 of 8
Comments: To: mideur-l@ubvm.bitnet, val-l@ucf1vm.bitnet, jwales@iubvm.bitnet,
          olsenj@stolaf.edu, kousen@rayleigh.res.utc.com, klur@maristb.bitnet,
          srdjan%cathy@kri.fer.yu

Date: 03 Jan 1993 10:26:39 -0600
From: Gottfried Mayer-Kress <gmk@PEGASOS.CCSR.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Balkan conflict (was: Re: More books and films)

On Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:27:22 -0500 george bauer writes:

>> The American Marines seem to have broken the cycle of clan
>> violence against innocent people in Somalia...

> that is correct, and everyone saw, how little resistance they
> faced. But the main problem remains, how to change the situation into
> a sustainable one without falling back into anarchy and starvation.
> Since the international community has waited that long it might be
> the case that only the most brutal and ruthless killers have survived
> in the power-struggle (educated citizens - who could have taken
> leadership in an alternative government were considered a threat to
> the gang leaders and therefore have been killed systematically.  This
> seems to be a common strategy for terrorist leaders, see e.g. Hitler,
> but also Milosevic and Karadzic) and to ask them to go back and build
> a peaceful, democratic government.

At the risk of redundancy, Somalia is NOT the Balkans, the folks in
Bosnia and Serbia are much more heavily armed, trained and willing to
fight than Somalians or Iraqis. Yes, what is risked is that gangsters
and killers might be who survives a "Balkan war" to be the leaders
tomorrow after all the fighting stops IF the military card is played,
regardless of where we're talking about.

>> I'm not usually in favor of force, but a combination of MIGHT AND
>> RIGHT is a forceful combination.

> one could also say that the people involved in the fighting need to
> be motivated to stop fighting, and and increased perceived risk is
> for most people a fairly strong motivation: It pays more to cooperate
> than to rob foreign aid supplies and buy Qat.

Well, "MIGHT AND RIGHT" in the Balkans is not so "clearly defined" as
some believe the lines in Somalia are drawn. I remain skeptical of
what our long-term goals are in Somalia, and I am unconvinced that
this behavior in Somalia is a short and quick military action. The
Balkans would call for thrice what I believe Somalia will eventually
need in terms of force committment, neither the UN or US budget will
sustain long military operations in either Somalia or the Balkans.

>> George Bauer

> Gottfried Mayer-Kress

VMS
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Date:         Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:49:00 PST
From:         Jonathan Fisher <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>
Subject:      Re: War in Europe
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> >>         Here's a likely scenario for the next six months:
> >> [...interesting stuff deleted...]
> >> Brett'
> >>
> >Brett',
> >
> >While I agree with the scenarios, I think that you should credit
> >MacNeil/Lehrer which talked about all of this in great detail
> >last night!
> >
> >Jonathan
>
>         I don't usually watch M/L.  It interferes with reruns of Cheers :).
>
> Brett'
> (What did they say?)
>
It was an almost verbatim dissertation about the "situation" in Serbia.
But it also included some cool maps!

Jonathan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:43:24 EST
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Reply to Evelyn Duncan ...

Well, if the family is supportive, then OK.  At least they would be able
to discuss all the choices, make their wishes known, and be able to say
goodbye.

Evelyn
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 09:43:22 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: good, bad, and ugly :)
              12 Jan 1993 08:54:14 -0500 from <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU>

On Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:54:14 -0500 <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU> said:

>Second, why is no one saying anything (on the list, I mean) about Iraq's
>most recent incursions into Kuwait?

I can't answer that question but I will make a comment about
the incident.  (WARNING: an unscientific, cynical, ad-hominem
comment follows.)

It seems that Saddam Hussien has always been there for George
Bush like a good friend.  :-)

>Kerry

--KAT
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:39:06 EST
From:         Daniel David Benson <bensonda@STUDENT.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Saddam & Georgie
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              93 9:43 am

>
> On Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:54:14 -0500 <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU> said:
>
> >Second, why is no one saying anything (on the list, I mean) about Iraq's
> >most recent incursions into Kuwait?
>
> I can't answer that question but I will make a comment about
> the incident.  (WARNING: an unscientific, cynical, ad-hominem
> comment follows.)
>
> It seems that Saddam Hussien has always been there for George
> Bush like a good friend.  :-)
>
> >Kerry
>
> --KAT
>

Wow. That is cynical. Personally, I think that Saddam is testing the U.N. and
the real force behind it's resolutions - the U.S. Since George is about to
leave office, maybe he thinks he can get away with this sort of thing and/or
feel out Clinton's stance in the region. Or better yet, my favorite hunch here:
maybe Saddam is just plain dumb and didn't get the message the last time he
messed with the allies and got clobbered (he did claim victory after being
pummeled in the war - remember?).

- Dan B
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:41:28 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: DC

>Well, it's obvious why the Republicans don't want it to be it's own
>state.  Aside from the very liberal people who are elected to city
>council, they voted 80+% for Clinton in the November election.  So, you'd
>have 2 more senators voting Democratic and 1 more congressman.

Nah, they're just afraid that the city will erect big toll-booths and
charge a "white-flight" tax on commuters working in DC. B)


>Of course, it is a city of well over 500,000 people and I believe that there
>are more people in DC than there are in Montana.  And right now, they
>don't have any voice in congress.

Yeah but then again think of how difficult it is for the average Montanan
to get a good chance at Orrin Hatch with a lemon meringue pie. B)

>Jonathan

-other Andy
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:19:29 -0500
From:         Andrew Allen <E7L8ALL@TOWSONVX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: freedom of speech

Jamie says:

>(I think we should print up some Political Philosopher Bubblegum
>Cards. Caius and I could trade them. They'd have slogans on them,
>and scores of how many dead people resulted from the philosophy.
>A goldmine, don't you think? Caius can have all the gold.)

Maybe you could let Robert and Carl in on the action too, by
including religious figures...imagine how much more valuable
cards from this field would be...I'll swap you a crusade,
a jihad, one witch trial and an "Army of God" abortion clinic
bombing for an essay on Dialectical Materialism and one of those
goofy portraits of Nietszche painted by his sister. B)

-other Andy
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Date:         Sat, 9 Jan 1993 13:22:24 EST
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Privatizations and standard of living

>I have an opportunity to compare two different economic systems in the same
>country ( conditions, you stated, slighly changed) and can tell you that
>private is simply better.
>It is not a belief, it's a FACT.
>Caius.

  Tell me, Caius, what is the economic situation in
eastern germany like, now that the economy has been
privatized?  Better?  The locals don't think so.

  What is the FACT in that case?

                              -Tim
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 09:04:00 EST
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: freedom of speech
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@UCF1VM.CC.UCF.EDU>

> Jamie
>
> (I think we should print up some Political Philosopher Bubblegum
> Cards. Caius and I could trade them. They'd have slogans on them,
> and scores of how many dead people resulted from the philosophy.
> A goldmine, don't you think? Caius can have all the gold.)

Include a hologram in randomly selected packages and I think you'll
have a hit there.

Best,
Peter
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 12:36:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Uncl: Re: Uncl: ActUp/RI joins Colorado Boycott

>Great movie.


peter, what's the name of the movie????

-linda (who desparately needs something to laugh about)

>Best,
>Peter

>> -T.
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:38:55 MET
From:         Grzegorz Albinowski <caius@II.UJ.EDU.PL>
Subject:      Re: why gold
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              "Dunstan_Vavasour" at Dec 21, 92 11:52 am

Dunstan_Vavasour pisze:
>> Why not base the currency on the whole productive base of a country -
>> one could then pass tokens which represent some proportion of that
>> productive base. Of course, keeping the supply of tokens in line with
>> the productive base might be quite difficult - if too many tokens were
>> supplied their value relative to goods and services might fall ... oh
>> hang on, that's what we do now isn't it.
>>
>> Dunstan.

One of the functions of money is STORE OF VALUE. Thats why stability is so
important. A unit of money must be strictly defined, and it cannot be changed
too frequently.

Second productivity is not enough. You have to produce the right thing ( what
the others are willing to accept).

Caius
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