HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:25:59 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1ii275INN5b0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>
>In a previous article, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) says:
>
>>*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
>>and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
>>and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
>>deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
>>it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.
>>
>>
>>I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
>>God cannot lie.
>
>If this is true, then how come his book says that pi = 3.0?
>>
Aw, c'mon. 3 is perfectly good enough for a scientific approximation. The
order of magnitude is even right!
>-- 
>When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
>                                                    --David Brin
>

	mark (Marx & Lennon - Groucho & John!)
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Ritualistic questions
Summary: lost in the fog
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:21:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

I am currently reading "Year of Moons, Season of Trees" by Pattalee 
Glass-Koentop and I have run into a bit of a block.  Is there anyone
on alt.pagan who is willing to go into a little depth on the subject
of the Ogham Tree Calendar?  The further I read the more obscure the
subject seems to become.

If anyone knows about these things would you be willing to put an
explaination in terms that a tech writer with 15 years experience and a BS could understand?  I would appreciate it.

Specifically I am trying to relate the various moon/tree ceremonies to 
the 1993 calander.

Oh yes...does anyone have a suggestion for a substitute for rowan?
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:48:30 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article<1349@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM>ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
<snip>
>	I do wonder just what evidence people want to see though......because 
>there really isn't any *physical* evidence at all to speak of! What do you 
>leave behind? A trail in the hills and a collection of herbs? A knife and 
>maybe a pouch with some personal talismans in it? No, what one leaves behind 
>that is important is one's children or someone who one can pass it down to. 
>Religion and magic are kept in the mind, so what do you want to see?
>
>						- Ashely

Of course they're in the mind. We'd like to read of theory & practice, things
that can be written down & passed on, not a trail in the hills somewhere,
and some old herbs moldering in a closed room in an abandoned house. What
did they do, and why, and what did they think about it, and what did it all
*MEAN*?

	mark
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: The Christian Bible(s) -- Part I
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:41:53 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

Y'know, yl'all, this is fascinating (does it mean that the xians split every
500 years? Does this mean it'll happen again, somewhere in the next 50? 
Is this why the Yugoslavians are busy tearing each other to shreds, and the
Armenians & Azerbaijanis? (tacky alert) Does this demonstrate the wonderfullness
of xianity? (end tacky alert)), but... is it really *relevant* to the main 
subject of this newsgroup? Maybe it should be on another newsgroup, or email?

	mark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: meeting Corun
Date: 4 Jan 1993 16:13:17 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec31.055051.27539@wam.umd.edu> angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:
>>
>Interestingly enough, I met Corun that very evening (or maybe the day
>after)...  He and I honored the Gods together :)  (We did a Yule
>Circle together with several mutual friends.)  I must agree with
>Janis; you're a doll, Corun!  And a great singer/storyteller! :)
>
>Bb!
>Angela

Gosh, all this praise is going to ruin my reputation as a pedantic old
curmudgeon. ;-) Thank you for your kind words, Angela. Actually, that
night was very momentous for me. It was the first circle I'd ever participated
in. I'd been invited to others, but had always been previously committed.
I love learning new things, and doing them with friends (and that can be
taken any of several ways <sees ailsa grinning>). I hope will be together
for other rituals some time. Until then, have a blessed New Year.

Bb,
Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |	Avid readers make novel lovers.
    Moritu by choice   |
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15108 talk.religion.misc:25561
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:34:48 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:


>In a previous article, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) says:
>
>>ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>>>In a previous article, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) says:
>>>
>>>>*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
>>>>and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
>>>>and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
>>>>deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
>>>>it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
>>>>God cannot lie.
>>>
>>>If this is true, then how come his book says that pi = 3.0?
>>
>>It doesn't.  The verses you are talking about describe a basin, and give
>>measurements.  The context does not specify pi=3.0, and the data given are
>>correct to within percentage points...
>>
>Oh, but it does.  It states that the basin in question is "circular" it
>also gives the diameter as ten cubits and the circumference as 30 cubits.

Read the text.  It says:

[I Kings 7, NIV]

   "(23)[Solomon] made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring
    ten cubits from rim to rim, and 5 cubits high.  It took a line of thirty
    cubits to measure around it.  (24)Below the rim, gourds encircled it -
    ten to a cubit.  The gourds were cast in two rows in one peice with
    the Sea.

    (25)The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing
    west, three facing south and three facing east.  The Sea rested on
    top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center.  (26)It was 
    a handbreath in thickness, and it's rim was like the rim of a cup, like
    a lily blossom.  It held two thousand baths."


The text does not say it was a circle, it says 'circular.'  The text also
does not say whether the measurements were from the inside rim to inside
rim, or outside rim to outside rim, or where the measurement of the
circumfrence was taken.

You are reading into the text something that is not there.

>ANy fifth grader can divide this and get pi = 3.0

Any second grader could read the text....and see what it actually says.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<C0HAv3.81p.1@cs.cmu.edu>
Date: 7 Jan 1993 18:24:31 UTC

In article <C0HAv3.81p.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
>and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
>and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
>deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
>it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.
>billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>>So? Does he state that you must believe in the "Father", or not have any
>>religious beliefs at all?
>Of course not; yet it is taught that those who do not have faith in God
>through Jesus will not gain eternal life.  It's a simple law: if you
>want eternal life, you need Christianity.  If you don't, well, that's
>your choice.

Regarding the Fruit of the Tree of Eternal Life, found east of Eden
(Salinas, Ca), and guarded by a fiery ever-turning sword and a cherubim
or winged child with an innocent, chubby, rosy face:

"If some messenger were to come to us with the offer that death should
be overthrown, but with the one INSEPARABLE condition that birth should
also cease; if the existing generation were given the chance to live
forever, but on the CLEAR understanding that never again would there be
a child, or a youth, or first love, achievements; ourselves for always
and never any others - could the answer be in doubt?"
	- Traditional Jewish story told on Rosh Hashanah
	  In Context #31, Bainbridge Island, WA, ISSN: 0741-6180
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Date: 9 Jan 1993 02:04 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1iibbrINNm5b@shelley.u.washington.edu>, mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes...
>In article <1ihft4INN324@bigboote.WPI.EDU> brenda@wpi.WPI.EDU (brenda) writes:

...original post deleted.....

> 
>I don't have any way to teach you melodies, but here are the chants that
>we jokingly call the Pagan Top Ten in Seattle:
> 

This is interesting because a number of these "songs" (I quoted because they
are incomplete) are very popular here in Texas.....hmmmmm

..stuff deleted...

>Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna.
>[There's also a Gods version but I don't know it.]

I've heard a couple different ones...the one I remember was written by
a guy in the Council of the Magickal Arts (Texas).

Pan, Posiedon, Dionysus, Cernunnos, Mythras, Loki, Apollo

..stuff deleted....

Also...a couple more....

The earth is our mother, we must take care of her (repeat)
Hey Innana, Ho Innana, Hey Innana  (repeat)
Her sacred ground we walk upon with every step we take (repeat)
Hey Innana, Ho Innana, Hey Innana

...

We are Wise Women, Witches, Hags, and Crones (repeat 2x)
Weaving the the web of life (repeat)

....

Just a couple....:)

Tammy the chant lover!  :)
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:14:09 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <3JAN199300473050@elroy.uh.edu> lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>In article <C07KIM.LwE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes...
>> 
>>George Papp makes some interesting comments about oral tradition and evidence.
>> 
>>I, personally, am perfectly willing to accept oral tradition from someone who
>>doesn't seem to be working straight out of Gardner's BoS.  However, both 
>>Fam-Trads I know are incredibly unlike modern Wicca.  (They are also incredibly
>>unlike each other, as the two people who I know, and who know each other, will
>>agree.)  One is a tradition of some simple folk magic and some talents for 
>>Healing.  The other is more a tradition of mysticism than magic, though every
>>generation has had its share of magical practitioners.  *Neither* of them are
>>religions, and both are unwritten.  I acknowledge that this sort of Fam-Trad
>>exists, but I've seen no evidence of Wicca, or an ancestor religion of Wicca,
>>existing before Gardner.  If anyone has some, I'd love to hear more about it.
>> 
>
>I started not to reply to this thread and I did say that I wouldn't, but I
>noticed something earlier and my big mouth just won't let me stay shut up..:)
>
>The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is 
>"Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because of
>the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  Therefore
>you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before Gardener.
>
Am I nuts, (yeah, I know) or do I see what Tammy said above as leading to
implying that, analagous to "high" and "low" magic, there's Wicca ("high"
witchcraft) and family trad, or individual ("low" magic)?

	mark
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<fXL2rYH@quack.sac.ca.us> <C0nFxx.1BM@rice.edu>
Date: 11 Jan 1993 01:29:13 UTC

In article <C0nFxx.1BM@rice.edu> 
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>In article <fXL2rYH@quack.sac.ca.us> 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <C0LzMu.Ju3@rice.edu> 
>>swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>>>  OK. I'll bite. How many digits of accuracy would make you happy?
>> As such
>>this issue of the accuracy of JHVH-1 does not concern me though I would
>>imagine that the IEEE could provide such information particularly in
>>regards to single chip double precision floating point units. I would
>>certainly hope that a God could exceed the precision of an Intel 387 for
>>instance, and I mean that in the kindest way.
>  So you want God to give dimensions precise to 7 digits to bronze age
>nomads, and expect them to deliver? That would be malicious. (I don't
>think modern architectural designs are given with that sort of precision.)

Precision? Oh I don't know. Seems like the stone fitting of the pyramids
would fit that bill, it's not easy doing mortarless stone work you know,
particulary large scale engineering projects designed to last thousands
of years. The Mayans and Aztecs certainly were more precise than one
digit, in fact they had the concept of zero, perhaps before the
Persians or Indus Valley Peoples. You'd be surprised at the type of
technology required to bring us modern, low-cost, Chia pets. Perhaps the 
basketwork of Paleolithics defines the meaning of precision.

>>>(For that matter, if the dimensions given are so bad given the accuracy
>>>of the tools they had, how did it get built?)
>>Free Masons, of course. ::B^}
>Back in the good old days whan being a Freemason actually meant something.
>(How many freemasons can carve a block today? Bloody few, if you ask me.)

Good point! Seems the corruption of the pinks and false prophets
(profits) reaches everywhere. The Stark Fist of Removal will no doubt
take care of that in short order. You'll note that JHVH-1 himself said,
"I come quickly" in the book of Revelations, BarCodes and other fine
points. Bottom line: I'm not interested in the aluminum siding, even if
all I have to do is accept it.
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space: The final frontier
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 19:39:51 PST

Re: Re: Space, the final frontier

> From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
> Uh -- how do you keep the launching station from soaking up momentum by
> shooting off in the opposite direction?  You'd have to build a PRETTY
> BIG FUCKING STATION.
> Blessings,
> Janis

Exactly correct. I'm still trying to get my spreadsheet converted to something
this braindamaged DOS clone will be able to upload... I can say that the
structure I've got in mind is a bit under 100 miles in length. (I
also had an planetary based platform in mind, if you have
something for moving an asteroid in mind, you WANT it to shoot
off in the opposite direction,)
Blessings,,,
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
 (slogan contributed by Jessica Mc Geary)  (translated by Murray Altheim)
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From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why Black Hilt?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 03:41:08 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

Edge of Insanity c/o Abyss of ignorance (Lisa  Ann) writes:

> 
>      Does anyone know the significance of a black hilt on an athame? Most

Lisa, if you want any responses in E-mail, we need a better address
than Edge of Insanity c/o Abyss of Ignorance, if you
are new to the Internet, that is NOT a valid network address...
here's what happened when I tried writing you...
Subject: Re: Why Black Hilt?
 
NOTE - Please delete any unnecessary text in the
       quoted message, as it tends to get annoying...
No such user: Edge
No such user: of
No such user: Insanity
No such user: c/o
No such user: Abyss
No such user: of
No such user: ignorance
 
Bright Blessings...
A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
[path]!pacbell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
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PGP2.0 public key available on request.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:44:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <4164@master.CNA.TEK.COM> richa@grizzly.CNA.TEK.COM (Grizzly Amber) writes:
>
>I have a small double-edged ax on a chain. There is a dragon wound
>around the haft and it hangs blades down.
>
>To me, the dragon represents earth power (ala druids) and the two
>opposing blades say that the truth cuts both ways.
>
>Now, my question to you folks is this: By me wearing this symbol,
>will the world at large think I am part of what you have been discussing
>rather than accepting my own interpretations?
>
>Griz

The attributions to this symbol are obscure enough that I doubt that
1 person in 10,000 has the foggyist idea of what it might mean.  Your
description is sufficiently different that the ratio would be even
greater.  If anyone has a question about it they could always ask and
you could answer whatever seems appropriate at the time.  It is my
experience that for the most part people do not pay much attention to
symbols like this.  I have a silver Goddess that I have worn for 6 years
and no one has ever commented on it other than it was an attractive 
piece of jewelry.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: wolfe@wolves.Durham.NC.US (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Date: 11 Jan 93 04:22:11 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den

<9JAN199302042712@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>
>The earth is our mother, we must take care of her (repeat)
>Hey Innana, Ho Innana, Hey Innana  (repeat)
>Her sacred ground we walk upon with every step we take (repeat)
>Hey Innana, Ho Innana, Hey Innana

The version I have of this one is noted as being directly from and
American Aboriginal chant:

The earth is out mother, we must take care of her (repeat)
Hey Yanna, Ho Yanna, Hey Yan Yan (repeat)

Her sacred ground we walk upon, with every step we take (repeat)
Hey Yanna.......

The Sky is our Father, we must take care of him,

His sacred air we bring inside, with every breath we take.



We have the "Grand Medeley" of chants, with similar tonalities and
rhythms and keys, and any/all can be sung together.

We all come from the Goddess		We all come from the Horned God
and to her we shall return		and to him we shall return
like a drop!   of rain			like a spark!   of light
flowing to the ocean			going to the flame

Hoof and Horn, Hoof and Horn		Horned One, Lover Son
all that dies shall be reborn		Leaper in the Corn
Corn and Grain, Corn and Grain		Deep in the Mother
all that falls shall rise again		Die and be reborn


			D N A,  D N A
			Double Helix, D N A


The "DNA" chant is our own addition to the medley.

Other chants:

	Mother, I can feel you under my feet,
	Mother, I can hear your heart beat,
	Mother, I can see you when the Eagle flies
	Mother, won't you take me higher.

Ancient Mother, I hear you calling
Ancient Mother, I hear your song,
Ancient Mother, I hear your laughter,
Ancient Mother, I taste your tears

Ancient Mother, I heed your calling,
Ancient Mother, I sing your song.
Ancient Mother, I share your laughter,
Ancient Mother, I dry your tears.

		Fire Fire Fire
		Work my Desire
		Higher and Higher   (Cynthia Kitely)

Weave Us, Weave Us together,
Weave us together in unity and love.
Weave Us, Weave Us together,
Weave Us together, together in love.

		The Goddess is alive,
		and Magick is afoot.		(spoken, "Goddess" can
					be substituted for by all sorts
					of others "The Earth" etc...)
	We are an Old People,
	We are a New People,
	We are the Same People,
	STRONGER than before.		(STRONGER can be replaced with
					other words DEEPER, BETTER, etc..)

I am told that StarHawk, now at the Institute for Creation Spirituality
in California, makes tapes of chants available for sale.  There are some
resources listed in Spiral Dance and Drawing Down the Moon as well.
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den, Durham NC	[This site is NOT affiliated  ]
wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us			[with Duke University! Idiots!]
UUCP: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe      <Standard Disclaimers apply>
    Above All, we celebrate!  --Celebrate the Circle, Statement of Purpose.