From: VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Bodnar and Petlura
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:54:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

>> SV:
>> The question was not about goverment but about a state.

> B.Bodnar:
> The earlier discussion _was_ about governments, and you initiated
> it. Do I need to dredge up your old posts to remind you?

 If you are not suffering from memory faults than you might
recall that this discussion was started after I wrote that
Ukraine as a state was created by Bolshevicks. I still hold
by this.

>> S.V.:
>> So Bolshevicks have had NOTHING to occupy. The only
>> thing they did - they just pushed aside those "goverments".

> B.Bodnar
> So it took them three years (1917-1920) and plenty of troops to
> accomplish nothing, to occupy nothing? Why did Leon Trotsky say
> as late as 1921 that the Bolshevists were only barely able to
> control the Ukrainians even with the Russian Red Army deployed?

  If you knew at least something about Civil War in Russia,
you should have been aware that Bolshevicks fought NOT with
"Ukrainians" but with Russian White Army. You are so proud
of Petlura's "army" that even consider it as an enemy of
Bolshevicks !?

>> S.V.:
>> Even now Ukrainian goverment desperately tries to show up
>> at least some evidence of "independent Ukrainian state" - from
>> here come all their complexes (the persisent attempts to create
>> their "own" army, fleet, etc). One could hardly expect
>> anything reasonable (al least at first) from goverment of a
>> country which has NEVER been independent.

> B.Bodnar:
> What do you say about the fact that Russia is also trying to
> create its '"own" army, fleet, etc'? Is that evidence that Russia
> has never been independent, or does it mean that it is reasonable
> for an independent state to have its own military?

  Russia has its army since at least 10th century - whether
it's called "druzhina" (e.g. druzhina of Kiev's Kniaz Oleg),
Russian Imperial Army, Red Army, Soviet Army, or CIS Army -
it doesn't matter. Ukrainian goverment is trying to create
its "army" from the shits which are deserting or are kicked
off from Russian Army, as e.g. newly appointed by Kravchuk "Ukrainian
commander" of Russian Black Sea Fleet Kozhin, who was fired
by Russian military for theft and administrative abuses when
he was a commendant of Sevastopol naval base.

> B.Bodnar:
> Just for starters, you hatemonger & buffoon: you are contradicting yourself.
> How do you reconcile your earlier claims that no Ukrainian state existed
> (thus that no Ukrainian "government" was ever in charge of that state)
> with your admission here that the Ukrainian "government" did control
> territory?

  Ukrainian "native goverment" did have several gangs of mobsters under
command (as did all other Ukrainian "goverments" in 1917-1920) who certainly
controled some area until they were overthrown by another Ukrainian "goverment"
and then by another, and finally all Ukrainian "goverments" just
disapeared into nowhere. I doubt even that there was any more or
less significant fighting between "ukrainians" and Bolshevicks.

> B.Bodnar:
> Sergei, skip the revisionism. Get serious. Crimes against humanity are
> not a subject suitable for lying or joking about. Pogroms happened in
> areas controlled by all contenders, and were committed by forces nominally
> loyal to all sides.

  Don't try to accuse of crimes someone else other than those
who commited those crimes. Pogroms were the typical "tactics"
of Ukrainian nationalists of all times - whether it was during
Civil War or during WWII when your, Dokhtur Bodnar, fellows
from OUN (Organization of Ukrainian nationalists) served
as a lakeys for Nazis and killed hundreds of thousands people
(not only Jews - Ukrainians and Russians too !). In fact
autrocities commited by Ukrainian nationalists from OUN
exceeded even those committed by Nazis themselves - it were
often OUN members who operated gas chambers because Germans
considered it as a "dirty" work.

> B.Bodnar:
> Here are some thoughts on the subject from a large
> variety of sources, partisan and neutral. Let's see you produce comparable
> sources that exonerate the Whites.
>
>      S. Baron, The Russian Jews Under the Tsars and the
>      Soviets (New York, 1964)
>      - writes that "about 50,000 Jews died in the pogroms".
>
>      P. Kenez, Civil War in South Russia 1917-1920 (Berkeley:
>      UofC Press, 1977)
>      - writes "...before the advent of Hitler, the greatest
>
>       [ junk deleted ]
>
>      J. Pelenski, "The Cossack Insurrections in
>      Jewish-Ukrainian Relations," in P. Potichnyj and H.
>      Aster, eds., Ukrainian-Jewish Relations in Historical
>      Perspective (Edmonton: CIUS, 1988)
>      - cites Jewish sources as saying that the number of
>      Jewish fatalities numbered about 35,000. Of these, about
>      27,000 were killed by the Whites. Approximately 6000 Jews
>      died at the hands of the anarchistic and largely
>      Ukrainian partisan forces of Makhno, Zeleny and Hryhoriiv.
>      [Zeleny and Hryhoriiv were allied with the Reds.]
>      And between 1500 and 2000 Jews died in pogroms
>      staged by Ukrainian military units.
>
>      I. Rybalka and V. Dovhopol, Istoriia Ukrainskoi SSR:
>      Epokha Sotsializmu (Kiev: Vyshcha Shkola, 1982)
>      - mention that the Whites staged about 400 pogroms while
>      in Ukraine
>
>      O. Subtelny, Ukraine: A History (Toronto, UofT Press,
>      1988)
>
>      - writes "In general, the Ukrainian pogroms differed from
>      those of the Whites in two ways: in contrast to the
>      premeditated, systematic undertakings of the Russians,
>      they were spontaneous outbursts of demoralized and often
>      drunken irregulars, and they were committed against the
>      express orders of the high command. Unlike the White
>      Russian generals such as Anton Denikin, the Ukrainian
>      socialists, especially the Social Democratic Party to
>      which Petliura belonged, had a long tradition of friendly
>      relations with Jewish political activists. Therefore, the
>      Directory renewed Jewish personal-cultural autonomy,
>      attracted prominent Jews such as Arnold Margolin and
>      Solomon Goldelman into its government, appropriated
>      large amounts of money for pogrom victims, and even
>      negotiated with the famous Zionist leader Vladimir
>      Zhabotinsky about the inclusion of Jewish police units
>      into its army. But while Peliura's attitudes towards Jews
>      might have been well intentioned, he was unable to
>      control the otamany, and the court-martial and subsequent
>      execution of Semesenko and other partisan leaders did not
>      improve the situation..."

  Hey, Dokhtur ! Why don't you try to argue for facism using
"Mein Kampf" as a "solid source" ?  You referred already some time
ago to one SS "furer"'s memoirs in order to boost your
credibility. Well, you can consult also Hasan Mutlu and
Alex Shvartsmaniuk how to find out "solid evidence" for
whatever idea you have. Petlura was a friend of Jews !!!!
Ha-ha-ha !  I'm in total defeat... It's hard to argue against
such claims.

>> S.V.:
>> As for your references to Subtelny: with the same success you can
>> refer to Bendera or Petlura.

> B.Bodnar:
> Please cite specific objections you have to contents of Subtelny's
> book, and back them up by verifiable sources of your own. I bet you
> haven't read any Subtelny other than the above passage, just now.
> Tell us, yes or no? You probably had not even heard of the respected
> Canadian historian or his book.

  No, I didn't read "respected Canadian historian" Subtelny, and
not going to.  Is he another former SS furer ?

>> S.V.:
>>  Even Sovok's propaganda machine didn't broadcast such outspoken
>> lies as Ukrainian nationalists do. The White Army, which was the worst
>> enemy of Reds (note - not Ukrainian nationalists, who were considered
>> as simply bandits, not even worth to be called as "enemy") and whom
>> the communists accused of all sins somehow avoided the accusations in
>> pogroms - just because it was too evident and known who did those pogroms.

> B.Bodnar:
> The reasons why the Bolsheviks prefered to blame the Ukrainian social
> democrats instead of the Russian tsarists for their own crimes against
> humanity and those of the tsarists are many, but some of the most
> important considerations were these:
> (1) The Bolsheviks and the tsarists had much more in common ideologically.
> Both believed in having an elite rule autocratically over a united empire
> dominated by Russia, and both believed in using force to suppress
> independence-minded occupied countries. They differed most obviously
> on the question of who should constitute the ruling aristocracy. The
> Ukrainian social democrats had a very different outlook on politics.
> (2) After the tsarists were defeated militarily, they ceased being a
> threat to the Bolsheviks because they had little popular support in
> Russia let alone in Ukraine. The Ukrainian anti-Soviet democrats
> were another matter altogether, because their humanitarian pluralistic
> ideals remained a potent ideological force.

  The "Ukrainian anti-Soviet democrats" such as Petlura, Bendera, etc
were war criminals who committed numerous crimes, including crimes
against Ukrainian people. Do you need me to go in for detailed
investigation in library and write you EXACT number of people
they killed ?

> B.Bodnar:
> There can be no doubt about
> this, as now after 70 years of Soviet power the democrats are still
> able to win the allegiance of the population of Ukraine against both
> the Communists and the neo-impero-monarchists.

  Leonid Kravchuk is another democrat ?!!!  I have never
suspected that in Ukrainian Communist Party propaganda department
there were democrats. Who do ?

> This post was meant for the benefit of those to whom this fact wasn't yet
> obvious. There is now sufficient proof for everybody.

  Agree.

>
> Dr. Bohdan Bodnar
> AT&T Bell Laboratories
> Naperville, IL 60566

S.V.