HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: herbison@manage.enet.dec.com (B.J.)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Reply-To: herbison@erlang.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Littleton, MA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:58:42 GMT


In article <1gjc0uINN2qa@news.UU.NET>, brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:

>I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
>This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
>and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other basic 
>US Constitutional topics.

I don't like the suggested name--a generic word like `patriot' will
be interpreted differently by different people.  Not everyone will
assume that the group discusses the specific organization that you
are thinking of.  This is especially true since you are talking about
a specific U.S. movement and people worldwide consider themselves patriots.

						B.J.
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:13:04 GMT

hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

>StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl) writes:

>>floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson) writes:

>>>Mike seems opposed to discussing as part of the vote that choosing a
>>>name also somewhat restricts the charter.  I would like to see a
>>>division that can accommodate most of all the NativeNet gateway, which
>>>means it would be best to split into two groups, one for discussion
>>>and one for informational posts.  s.c.*.d and s.c.*.misc seem to be
>>>the best choices?

I missed this one, I think.  I would not say that I am opposed to
anything, at the moment.  My feeling about the relationship
between a new USENET group concerning native peoples and NativeNet
is somewhat ambivalent.  On the one hand, I think it would be
an excellent idea for them to be profoundly linked; on the other
hand, I wonder whether that decision is now before us.  That is
to say, I wonder whether it is more advisable for the members
of the new newsgroup (assuming there is one) to decide among 
themselves whether they wish to be linked to NativeNet, and,
conversely, whether the people who use NativeNet wish to be
linked to a USENET group.  It seems to me that once the
group is established (assuming it is established), then these
two entities can decide among themselves whether and in what 
manner they wish to be linked.

I hasten to say that this is simply my general feeling about the
matter.  I am certainly not committed to this position. If I 
have learned anything about this process, it is the importance
of flexibility.

Happy Holidays,

Mike

==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================
Xref: sparky news.groups:24446 alt.native:1439
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 18 Dec 1992 17:33:17 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Wed, 9 Dec 1992 22:31:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.223158.17206@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
   stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
[attribution deleted by a previous poster]
   >>You could have suggested that since you were writing a different article,
   >>Dave could have suggested this somewhere else. You didn't, you flamed.
   >In response to a generic criticism of writing style. Being lectured on
   >writing style by someone who is too lazy to write his own documents
   >is justification for whatever comments I made to him.

   Really? So then, the constructive criticism you got from two others
   (who haven't written any documents at all) should have gotten the same
   flames...right?

The keyword is constructive.  Also their arguing style has been less
combative.

   I put it to you this way: _anything_ I say to you in comment to that
   document...you will interpret as negative criticism. I'd bet lots
   of money on that statement. 

   And all it has to do with is your perception of who I am. Go figure. 

Based on what we've heard in your diatribes to date.

   >Your claim is in no way supported by using my reply to Dave. If you
   >claim that my reply to him is proof that good ideas get flamed, then you
   >fail miserably because 1) his idea isn't good, and 2) his idea would
   >result in a document that does not reflect the way things are.

   Does that mean that you had to flame? You could have said "Gee, Dave,
   I'm trying to convey things the way that they are, not introduce
   new ideas." And that would have been it. 

I believe the document itself claimed pretty clearly to be
descriptive of the current process.  Please read more carefully.
This avoids many flames.

   >His suggestion wasn't good. Flames in response are proof only that
   >criticism of writing style from those who don't bother to write
   >themselves will generate flames.

   And those who write flames will get them in kind. Meanwhile, the real
   work goes on behind the scenes. 

Excellent wording.  Complete agreement here, although it isn't complete
(flames are also generated from inaccurate reading).
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:25:11 GMT

rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>8) The CFVs, RFDs and an independent articel concerning the vote was
>   posted in rec.music.synth.
>9) The articles dealing with the vote was placed in front of the 
>   rec.music.synth readers noses.

1) For NN users, that article pops up _only_ if they selected the article 
by subject line.

2) It is easy to miss subject lines or misinterpret content of subject 
lines for any given set of subjects and articles and people. 

>10) Instructions on how to vote popped up in front of their noses.

3) Only if they selected the article to be read. 

Therefore, instructions on how to vote MAY or MAY NOT have popped up in front
of their noses. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

            To an ant, a drizzle is torrential rain.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:31:28 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

[I still can't post to
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers
...]

In article <BzD7GH.865@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel K. Furr) writes:
>You with me?  YOUR SIDE LOST.  YOUR ARGUMENTS LOST.  Are you getting this?

...and I would have been happy to let it lie...but you just HAD to gloat. I
should have expected it form you, though.

>>It's simply not as easy as he makes it out to be;
>>either there are expensive or difficult registration requirements, severe
>>access limits, or both.
>So if you want to read alt.folklore.computers, you can either do it at another
>site, which will take five minutes to arrange (as many, many people have
>demonstrated during this flamewar),

...and, when I tried the sites mentioned, without exception, getting on and
posting within five minutes was simply not possible. I understand that you
were able to do so. I was not. The policies of your favorite example have
changed. Other sites are even more restricted.

>or you can sit in your sandbox and draw
>messages in the sand.  Have fun!

I guess I'll have to sit in my sandbox. You won't let me into yours.
After all, we have fascist admins who won't accept alt as a part of the
Natural Order Of Things. :-/ (note: I don't think my admins are fascists...)
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
 "Brought to you by the letters O, S, and by the number 2." -- Mike Levis
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:57:53 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <101867@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
> I think that before any meaningful discussion on what changes (if any)
> are in order can begin, that we should carefully examine what has
> happened in the past.  John Werner has thoughtfully gathered these
> together (and has volunteered to provide copies to those who are
> interested).

I have received a copy, and I'm going to analyse it on the basis of my
proposal to see what the effects would be. I can see two or three votes
that would have failed under it, and there may be others that would pass.

> I don't like this idea.  The current procedure is to attempt to
> reach a consensus on new group names via discussion in news.groups
> and/or private mail;

Unfortunately it doesn't work, and I have in the past run multiway votes
similar to the one I described to resolve a situation where the consensus
could not be formed, or where the vote taker was operating under a hidden
agenda. The only failure was when I failed to follow up on the results of
my vote.
-- 
%Peter da Silva/77487-5012 USA/+1 713 274 5180/Have you hugged your wolf today?
/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def/F{0 562 moveto 180 576 324 648 396 736 C 432 736 L
482 670 518 634 612 612 C}def/G{setgray}def .75 G F 612 792 L 0 792 L fill 1 G
324 720 24 0 360 arc fill 0 G 3 setlinewidth F stroke showpage % "Peerless"
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:59:38 GMT
Reply-To: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, clements@carson.u.washington.edu (Steve Clements) says:

>>In article <1gjc0uINN2qa@news.UU.NET>, brians@atlastele (Brian Sheets) writes:
>>>I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
>>>This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
>>>and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other basic 
>>>US Constitutional topics.
>>
>Why not call it talk.politics."patriot-nudge-nudge-wink-wink-:)" ???
>You could all stroke each other with talk of Oliver North and Ronald
>Reagan and other great "patriots" (nudge-nudge-wink-wink)! You might
>want to include .usa in the group title, but that would by no means
>exclude other great American "patriots" (nudge-nudge-wink-wink) such as
>Ferdinand Marcos and the Shah of Iran and the Somozas of Nicaragua and ....
>
>
Why be even that exclusive?  We could include GIFs of such legendary
patriots as Jesse Jackson hugging Fidel Castro...or quotes from the thoughts
of Chairman Ted.

Sersiously...where the hell is all the kneejerk, unthinking criticism
coming from.  Are there no *intelligent* liberals on Internet?

-- 
******************************************************************************
The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very
carefully thought out.  It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the
University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University.
Xref: sparky news.groups:24652 alt.config:8033 alt.folklore.computers:18093 alt.folklore.urban:31585
From: tjw+@pitt.edu (TJ Wood)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:42:56 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Dec17.020351.23814jp@tygra.Michigan.COM> jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer) writes:

>Hey jerk, lay off the guy.

>Jay: Don't let assholes get you down. There are alot of them on the net
>and in the world. 

And I think I just met one.

>PS: I'm sending you a Christmas present :->

Could it be (SATAN!):

  zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news
  has requested that comp.society.folklore be changed from moderated to
  unmoderated

zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news says:
As per voting.

        FOR: 729
        AGAINST: 151
        FOR COUNT > 100? YES

Now I see where "Tyger, Tyger burning blight" comes from.  I'm rmgrouping
comp.society.folklore before this gets out of hand.

Terry J. Wood
University of Pittsburgh
Computing and Information Services
Systems and Networks Group
-- 
        INTERNET: tjw+@pitt.edu         BITNET: TJW@PITTVMS
"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!"                        - Lord "John" Warfin
"There can be only one!"                                  - The Highlander
"There should have been only one. I want my money back!"  - Terry
Xref: sparky news.groups:24447 alt.folklore.computers:17964 alt.config:7945 alt.folklore.urban:31350
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec12155241@mother.intellection.com>
	<1992Dec17.113806.45717@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 04:21:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.113806.45717@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane) writes:

   Here is a list of 508 passing votes over the last couple of years,
   and how they would have fared under these rules.  Only 152 of the
   508 would have passed.

Let's look at the traffic in these groups and try to get a handle on
the relationship between the vote and the traffic.  Matthias Urlichs'
weekly traffic counts are the only figures available in my spool at
the moment and I used them to get a rough idea of the relationship.
(See news.lists article <1gdu82INN860@smurf.smurf.sub.org>.)

In his top 250 by article count, 18 appear of the 152 which would have
passed anyway (12%).  The mean article count in these 18 groups is
662.  21 appear of the 356 which would have failed (6%).  The mean
article count for these 21 groups is 407.

It appears that newsgroups which would have failed actually did get
less traffic.  A fewer proportion of them appeared in Matthias'
article, and those that did appear carried less traffic than those
which would have passed anyway.

I want to use the arbitron data to compare relative by-site readership
when the new stats are posted.  What would be useful is a histogram of
number of sites vs. Y-2*N for each newsgroup.  Site readership is of
more interest than individual readership or article counts when trying
to determine whether a topic should be carried by news or mail.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 05:03:07 GMT

In article <gs_rx#n@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>
>I suspect the new group could be more accurately labeled 
>soc.culture.indian.how.the.evil.white.man.screwed.us or 
>soc.culture.indian.bingo or 
>soc.culture.indian.getting.more.money.from.uncle.sam
>for what I anticipate the discussion will be about.
>(Yes, this is highly cynical but it seems appropriate to what I've seen
>in the media in recent years under the "native american" moniker)

Crimony, John, signing up for the Ku Klux Klan and trying to prove that
you're worthy to belong?  Mike Wilson has bent over backward to listen to
everyone and promote the constructive discussion of a newsgroup dedicated
to the culture of the indigenous American peoples and your kneejerk
reaction is that it's a hate group?

>I never have figured out why some American Indians seem to be so ashamed
>of their breed that they want to try to change their name to somehing
>politically correct but completely meaningless.  What is wrong with
>soc.culture.american.indian?

The exact same thing that was wrong with soc.culture.indian.american. 
People get confused as to whether it's about natives of the Indian
subcontinent living in the Americas or about the American native peoples. 
You been reading USENET long?


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:51:37 GMT

werner@soe.berkeley.edu (John Werner) writes:

>There seems to be an implicit assumption that new groups are bad.  Why?

Not my assumption at all.  My assumption is that for a group to be
spread net-wide (ie, picked up at almost every site) it should have
some percentage of the net interested in reading it.  The use of an
additive constant as part of the procedure means that, over time,
a smaller and smaller percentage of the net is sufficient to establish
a group.

I cite alt as an existance proof.  :-)
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:20:34 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard):
>This is a Dave Hayes tactic: refer to your mailbox...never mind that it's
>completely unverifiable as a source of data for an argument.

At a nearby meeting of Joel Complimenters Anonymous:

"Hi.  My name is Chip, and I told Joel that I liked his Jay flame."
"Hi Chip!"
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:42:20 GMT

cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
>ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis) writes:
>>In short, the response to your proposal is "Who will propose the RFD?
>>The people who think the vote was fine don't see the need, and those
>>who think the vote was bad object to accepting the passed vote on
>>principle."  
>
>I'm about ready to formally propose the darn thing just to bring the
>issue to an end.  I think the original vote was fine, but maybe if we
>had a new vote on changing the name back everyone would shut up.  

I don't think it will satisfy the people who dislike the original
vote.  They can keep claiming the original vote was bad until HELL
freezes over, no matter how many new votes you propose.  If you do
propose this renaming, and it fails, they're not going to shut up by
any means.  Ask them.  Let them hold a vote, if they think it will
pass -- it's their baby.  

-sz
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: what does it take to get someone to vote?
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:40:45 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.

In article <737@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
>>We have provided evidence. The subject line was misleading (CFV: 
>>rec.music.makers.* reorganization) and the vote topic was far enough
>>down in the body of the CFV (greater than 21 lines) that it was probably 
>>missed by those who have 24 line screens (a sizable percentage). 

Even in US Presidential Elections where the CFV lasts from January to
November, and the topics (issues) are hidden between Willie Horton and
Family Values, or are as clear as dodging the draft, PEOPLE STILL DON'T
VOTE. 

>Perhaps _a_ subject line was misleading (by your standards).  But 
>we have also had posted the article ref # and subject line from an
>article posted by an interested participant (more interested than
>you apparently, since you did NOT post one) where the subject line
>was perfectly explicit.  You seem to keep ignoring this one.

Perhaps something more drastic is needed. Force the USENET newsreader
programs to make it MANDATORY to vote on a certain percentage of CFV's
otherwise they can't read news... Totally automate the voting process
(i.e. make it similar to posting to a moderated group which actually
gets sent to the moderator and so on...). 

I can imagine the newsreading software doing this:
 
  $ rn rec.music.makers.tuba
  ...........
  checking news group
  there is a CVF which you have ignored. You can not read this 
     news group until you vote. 
  do you want details of the CFV (y/n) y

  ..........

  Do you want to vote yes: y

  thank you. Now, back to your group

  [2.3E+14 articles on rec.music.makers.tuba. Read now? y]

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       (317) 451-0815
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:34:17 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>You are a native of this country, but not a "Native American" in the
>colloquial sense.  I don't know of anyone who refers to themselves as
>"Native American" who does not have a fair portion of Cherokee or
>Navajo (or some such) blood in them.

>____ Tim Pierce                / 

Hello Tim,

Speaking as an indigenous person to this continent, I can say that
I sort of understand how persons whose ancestors are from Europe
yet born on this continent would call themselves native American,
because they are proud to be native to North or South America.  In
a general sense, it is perhaps fundamental for them to say so 
because they no longer have direct contact with their old culture --
Celtic, Germanic, and so on -- and have embraced the culture of, 
say, the United States, however one defines that culture.  

I believe a person's right to name himself or herself is
fundamental, and so I accept that persons with European roots
would call themselves native American.  My hope is that, for these
native Americans, we can find a name for the newsgroup that will
not be offensive to them.  And I believe we can do that if we
work together.

Thanks,

Mike

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lagrangj@unvax.union.edu (i'm a nut)
Subject: Re: How can I get my site to carry more groups
Organization: Union College, Schenectady, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:57:22 GMT

chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin) writes:

>lagrangj@unvax.union.edu (Joshua C. LaGrange) writes:

>>I'm at Union College, we run nn, we have relativelt few groups available.
>>I've already sent a message to the sys-op here, but he ignored it.  What should I do?

>Offer to pay for them.

Well, golly-gee, don't you think the $17,000 I pay for tuition, not to mention 
room and board money, is sufficient.  Considering that there are a couple 
thousand of us paying tha tuition, I'd say so.
-- 
Josh LaGrange                  *                    
lagrangj@unvax.union.edu       *           (cute stuff deleted  
Phone: (518) 370-6908          *
The views that I express are shared by very few responsible people.
Newsgroups: news.groups