From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Joe Torre (Was Re: Todd Zeile) [LONG]
Organization: NSSL
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:13:35 GMT
Keywords: Please explain

In article <55659@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
[Deletions]
>
>If I were Todd, I would either refuse the demotion and make a stink
>so that Dal and Joe have to justify the move, or I would go down,
>do my job, and then bitch like hell for a traded once the season
>is over.
>
>I know many think Torre was wrong to move Todd from catcher, I still
>think it was the right move, but they really have screwed with the
>guy the last couple of years. He moves around the batting order
>from day to day up and down depending on the previous game. They're
>constantly making adjustments in his batting style. 

I'm one of the people who think the move was wrong and still do,
but I'll respect your opinion on that.  One of the big objections I
had and still have with it is the message it sends to the organi-
zation.  A player is brought along very slowly and, at every level,
the evaluation from the people within and outside of your organi-
zation is very positive.  He makes it to the majors and has some
trouble defensively at a difficult defensive position in his first
full year.  After just a few weeks of contact as the major league
manager, the new manager decides to ignore the years of evaluation
from the organizational people and move the player to a new posi-
tion at the major league level.  The message to all the organiza-
tional people seems to me to be, "I don't care about all the time
and effort and everything else you've put in to become positive
about this player, I'm going to ignore you and make my own
decision based on ~20 games."  That doesn't strike me as expressing
confidence in your minor league people.

When Torre was rumored as being hired, I felt this awful chill in
my body that I've only felt twice since then--when I got the flu
two winters ago and when The Trade was made.  I remembered a 
comment that Bill James made in the '82 Abstract when he was 
talking about the failed promise of Lee Mazzilli.  The parallel
with Todd Zeile (and perhaps Bernard Gilkey, should he have a bad
month and lose his starting position again) is striking.


     "Sometimes things you write are more interesting than they are at
     the time you write them.  A year ago I wrote about Mazzilli, 'He's
     a major property at a critical point in his career, and as such he
     represents a test for the new Met management.  If they continue to
     shuttle him around, give him jobs to which he is not suited, he'll
     never become the ballplayer he should be.  A good organization 
     decides what position a player like this is best for, and then 
     moves around the Mike Jorgensons and Rusty Staubs to accomodate
     _him_.'
     "Well, they failed the test with flying colors.  They played him 
     in center for three years, moved him to first, benched him to get
     Kingman in the lineup and returned him to the outfield.  They talk
     a lot about his throwing arm--'He doesn't throw well enough to 
     play center.'  Well, I don't doubt that.  What I am saying is that
     the cost of keeping his throwing arm in center field could not
     possibly have been as great as the cost of moving him around like
     he was a nobody.  Joe Torre took a young man who two years ago
     was convinced he was going to be a great ballplayer and succeeded
     in convincing him him that he is not.  And for that, no matter 
     what else he might have done, he deserved to be fired."

     --Bill James, _1982 Baseball Abstract_

Of course, now, the chances of Torre being fired are slim at best.
Being buddies with the GM is rather like a scientist in a government
lab.  If you want to do controversial, but good, work or circum-
stances (injuries, etc.) make it impossible to produce a product 
as good as you would like one year, you've got valuable job security.
If, on the other hand, you're doing a miserable job, no one's going
to boot you out and bring in someone better.

[Deletions]
>It really is frustrating to see, he's messed with Zeile, messed
>with Osborne, waited far too long to give Gilkey the LF job,messed
>with Lankford(making him a leadoff hitter, and then finally
>moving back to 3rd when he was actually doing pretty well at leadoff)
>and basically screwed with the ballclub all year.

I looked at Nelson Lu's most recent RC/27 numbers.  Of the Cardinals' 
most frequent player at each position (Pagnozzi, Galarraga, Alicea,
Zeile, Smith, Gilkey, Lankford, Jose), only two (Zeile and one other)
are below league average, offensively.  Despite this, the offense as
a whole has been putrid.  A couple of the reasons--no one's a huge 
amount above league average (Ozzie's ~1.5 RC/27 above is the highest),
while one is a huge amount below  and the long time spent determining
that Brian Jordan warranted a lot of money not to play football at
expense of not playing Gilkey.  

It seems that it is a Very Bad Thing (VBT) (TM) for a young player
to have a bad month or two with Torre as manager.  With the possible
exception of Jordan, such a lapse is nearly fatal to a career.  A 
veteran can get away with a disastrous performance and not have 
problems with Joe.  Mazzilli, Zeile, Gilkey.  Brett Butler got out
of Atlanta before he got screwed up.  Torre didn't have to do any-
thing major with the Atlanta line-up when he arrived in '82.  Butler
got some time, but, other than the Horner injury and the trade of 
Butler, Torre kept the same line-up the whole time.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory/CIMMS (Norman, OK)
Andres Galarraga (Through 11 August)  .235 BA  .359 SLG  .273 OBA
24 H away from .300  7 HBP  6 BB    664+ PA w/o a sacrifice