HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Puzzled - History of Korean MAs
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:48:34 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com


Dakin (burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu writes:

>>Another note:  this "ancient art" stuff is also a great way to keep
>>lower ranks in line, especially stupid Americans who buy all of that
>>orientalistic crap.



Do I hear an echo?????????

Great point, and Oh! How true.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: willem@pcuf.fi (Ville Salminen)
Subject: Re: What/Where is Sinawali?
Organization: The PC-users of Finland
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:50:16 GMT

youngjo@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>Does anybody know what Sinawali(sp?) is?
 
 At least in Kali Escrima, it is a sequence of stick strikes. I do not know
if it propably has other meanings as well. If I didn't express clearly enough
(wouldn't surprise me as I do not speak english too well), look what the
guys do in movies when pretending to do a stick fight. Thus you'll get at
least a hint of what sinawali means in Kali Escrima. Hope this satisfies
some of your interest. I'll put in a more detailed description, if you wish.
 
Ville Salminen - willem@pcuf.fi - Involved in Muay Thai & Kali Escrima
From: robert_walton@next.com (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Aikido in France?
Date: 28 Jan 93 19:55:37 GMT

I may have a chance to move to Paris, and wondered if anyone knows of  
Aikido dojos there?  I may be joining one here in Redwood City next week  
(Frank Doran's) since I'm finally getting control of my schedule (maybe  
just in time to leave...).

If so, please reply to:

robert_walton@next.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Taiji and T'ai Chi
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:00:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.054006.20575@csc.canberra.edu.au> Kim Holburn <kim@csc.canberra.edu.au> writes:
>There are many chinese martial arts with names based on principles of
>chinese philosophy. BaGua is an example.

That might be a bad example: As I heard the story, when Dong Haiquan
first demonstrated bagua, the audiance (a prince) was very impressed
asked what this new art's name was. Dong hadn't considered this 
detail before, and didn't have an answer. Instead of looking like
an idiot, however, he used the first mystical sounding name that 
came to mind: Baguazhang, Eight Trigram Palm... The art didn't 
really have any connection to the eight trigrams at that time, so 
it might be conisdered an inappropriate name. But the name has
served as a guide as the art evolved, and the name is fairly
appropriate now.

                                               Frank Crary
                                               CU Boulder

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: More origins of stuff
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:28:21 GMT

>RT>Does it -really- matter how old TaeKwonDo or some other art is?
>RT>No, not in the least.  The effectiveness of the art is what is
>RT>important and age has nothing to do with that.  [IMHO]

Actually, it is important in some ways.  TKD, TSD and Shotokan Karate
all have forms, right?  And these forms are derived from each other
and influence each other (not to mention the Okinawan and Chinese
forms).  So if we are trying to look for the "hidden moves" in the
kata as George Dillman would have us do, or if we are just trying
to determine which variation was used 80 years, and whether or not
the modern versions are more effective, we need to look at the history
of the arts.  Who developed the forms and why?  Try to liberate
ourselves from classical martial arts (ala Bruce Lee) is great, 
but you need to know where you came from to figure out where you're 
going.

So martial arts history is important.  Of course, it is not as
important as going to practice regularly.

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: alph@wsinfo01.win.tue.nl (G.J.W. Hagenaars)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fights and blackbelt confidence
Date: 27 Jan 93 11:42:39 GMT
Reply-To: alph@win.tue.nl

popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:

>>>This is why I make it a point to myself never to be "obtrusive" until
>>>I'm at least a 3rd gup.  
>>
>>Like Joel I have to wonder...why 3rd kyu/gup? 

>Well, if this was the guy who was asking about Shotokan, 3rd kyu is
>often where one begins to wear a brown belt.  It's probably very
>similar in Tae Kwon Do for 3rd gup.  And as many if not all of us
>know, brown belt is where one is "supposed"* to get (and resist) that
>temptation to "test out" one's training in a "real situation".  It
>looks like our friend here is anticipating that condition a bit.

>*"Supposed" as in "It commonly happens," not as in "Should."
>	-Steve

I take the liberty to disagree with you on your first point.  He
probably is making his point about not being obtrusive because he is
likely to _loose_.  (This is the way I read his attitude.)

But I _do_ agree with your description `resist the temptation to test
out', I think you ought to be convinced never to use your skills in
that way, no matter how short you've trained.  Your sensei should point
this out as soon as possible (as the sensei of the first poster did).
It's Martial Arts.  Not War Games.

I also don't understand this `I want a black belt'-attitude a lot of
people seem to have.  Right now I have a blue belt.  I have had this
one for almost two years, although my sensei would prefer me to take
the next exam, I'm not going to do that.  I play along with the brown
belts in our class.  I sometimes explain things to `lower' belts.  I
don't _NEED_ a black belt.  The first poster probably wants one, so 
he can SAY he has one.  Or, even worse, to USE his skills when he 
_thinks_ he is being harassed.

I do not think those reasons are good enough to start taking up a MA.

Gert-Jan Hagenaars
alph@win.tue.nl
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Happenstance Weapons
Date: 23 Jan 93 00:52:56 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <16B5D12BD7.ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU> ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU writes:
>On a more mundane level, there are interesting possiblilities in an umbrella.
>Does anyone remember the old British TV show "The Avengers"?  Remember Patrick
>McNee's character "Mr. Steed"?  Granted, the show was TELEVISION, e.g.

The hell with Patrick McNee's character - I was too busy paying attention
to Diana Rigg, myself. Followups to alt.sex.bondage.leather_jumpsuits...

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: Evil Black Belts (was : Fighting against animals?)
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:42:24 GMT

Stephen_Y._Chan@transarc.com writes:

>kwp@ukc.ac.uk (K.W.Pang) writes:
>> In an old MA magazine, there was an article about a Martial Artist called Dante,
>> who practised the art just for the offensive. He was generally black listed by
>> all the MA world.
>> 

>	Is this the "Count Dante" that caused trouble in Chicago
>several years back?

>> Although there was alot of truths in what he said, his methods were considered
>> dangerous and unacceptable.

>	As I understand it, he was essentially a street fighter posing
>as a formal MA teacher. He liked to trash other people's schools, and

 At one time, Dante, whose real name was John Keehan, was one of the
most respected karate teachers in the U.S.A....got to be about sixth
dan from Robert Trias, and was a big figure in the USKA.

>earned lots of enemies that way - didn't he eventually he came to an

 He sort of went crazy at some point and declared himself a master of
 'Dan Te', which he claimed meant 'Deadly hands', was booted out of
 the USKA, and went down hill from there.

>unfortunate (but well deserved) ending?


 Nah, died in bed at home...result of stomach disease if I recall
correctly...of course some of his students claim that it was Dim Mak...

>	Stephen


Bud

-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
APSU Dept of Math and CS| Then you are probably better than most people!
Clarksville TN          | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 615 645 8938 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
From: wwood@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Movie help
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:14:18 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Sorry about that last message.

I am in Halifax, Nova Scotia  Canada.
Most rental places here have the usual low grade martial-arts movies for
rent. We have been getting some new stuff like the American kick boxer
series and those done by Cynthia Rothrock. Mostly American low budget
movies. Some good, some bad.
The newest foriegn release we have is Jackie Chan's 'Police Story 1'
(sorry if I have part of the name wrong)
And I was wondering if any kind hearted soul could give me any
information on how to get the new releases. What good mail order
company's are there that any one can recommend?
And can someone make up a list for us out of the way martial arts movie 
fanatics, on what has been released lately and who are the new and old
stars to look for.(ex: Jackie Chan, Jet Lee, etc.)

Thanks for any info that anyone can send me or post. It would be greatly
appreciated.


Wayne

wwood@ac.dal.ca
wood@moon.sba.dal.ca
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Yoko-Guruma
Date: 27 Jan 1993 19:59:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

The starting feet position of Brenda's throw and Yoko-Guruma are close, yet
Uki's momentum is different.  (just my $.02 - comment ? disagree ?)
From: toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (Jay toman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido vs. kicks
Date: 26 Jan 93 02:03:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1k265dINNjaf
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovine.uoregon.edu

In article <20037@mindlink.bc.ca> Robert_Cocking@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Cocking) writes:
>Having read a few books on Aikido and being very new to the budo, I have not
>found any defense against kicks.  Beyond a basic block, I can't really
>imagine an Aikido technique to deals with this kind of attack.  Is there a
>sensei to enlighten me?

Not really a sensei, except when mine has to pick his kid up from daycare :)

The theory (I've never played with it myself) is roughly that there are
straight attacks (shomen-uchi,mune-tsuki, etc. ) and there are round attacks
(yokomen-uchi,kata-dori, etc.) and that you can treat the attacks in these
categories as the same (more or less). It doesn't matter that much which
is the offending body part, the principle employed is the same, e.g., you 
would treat a roundhouse kick like it was a yokomen-uchi. I would guess
that the reality is you would need an extremely good grasp of the principles
involved in order to get this to work. 
					J. Toman
From: Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: pedigree vs. pragmatism.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:37:00 -0500

In a confrontation, pedigree is less important than pragmatism.

TAC>There are several problems with this, largely connected with most
TAC>people's misconceptions that it's "what works" that is important.

I respectfully submit that "what works" is the only legitimate
measure of a martial art: all else is conjecture.

TAC>One, the traditional Japanese martial ryu were not concerned with
TAC>"what works in the street", or "can I use today what I learned
TAC>today", they were concerned with perfecting technique.

If they were fighting for their lives, I would think they would be
very concerned with "what works".

TAC>Why? Because the fellow you're facing across the field *has* been
TAC>perfecting his technqiue, so if you haven't, you won't be passing
TAC>on your short-sighted ideas about martial training to anyone.
TAC>The ryu evolves after several centuries of battle experience.

If my "short-sighted" ideas happen to work, they become the new way of
doing business. Logic would dictate that those martial arts that
lasted were adaptable and thus better able to defeat a variety of
opponents. I don't believe any martial art sprang forth full-grown and
invincible. All of them had to undergo a period of evolution in which
the primary consideration was "what works".

TAC>For many of today's martial arts, mere adequacy is sufficient for
TAC>most situations people will find them in.  You simply don't fight
TAC>for your life everyday against other people who do the same. For
TAC>those to whom MA is merely a hobby, I guess that's fine for them.

Given today's attitudes, any fight could be a fight for your life. Such
an altercation might happen only once in a lifetime; but if it does,
one is much better off choosing techniques on the basis of "what works".

TAC>But these little details can be lost or ignored as inconsequential
TAC>by instructors.  An Olympic athelete would never give up a .1%
TAC>advantage over an opponent.  The advantage of a traditional ryu
TAC>is that due to their formalism, these details tend not to get
TAC>lost, at least not as much --

Tradition does not offer any inherent superiority. One of the biggest
advantages of Hapkido is that we have discarded many of the techniques
that are no longer viable and have incorporated (stolen) those which we
consider to be useful. We are not blindly bound by any, "Daddy did it
thataway", tradition. We spend our time practicing what works today, not
two or three centuries ago.

This is not ment to imply that Hapkido is superior to any other martial
art. It's simply an explanation of the philosophy which works for us.

Peace in our time,

Tom
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Unfortunately, I'm not young enough to know everything.
From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Happenstance Weapons
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:11:20 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

 
> I have heard a number of stories of Mantis and Snake Stylists with
> carefully manicured (sharpened is a better word) nails on the index
> and/or middle fingers (razors taped along the edge of a finger is
> another popular variation).  Needless to say, it doesn't take a lot of
> imagination to think of several brutal applications.
> 
> Chris Cowan 
> 

A few years ago I experiemented with sharpening my pinkie nails.  I cut them at
45 degrees on the sides so they were pointed, trimmed off the very tip of the
point, then filed the edges.  I wanted to see their effectiveness as an
"oh-shit" response.  This was back when I was paranoid about my ability to take
out guys who were a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier than me.

It worked pretty well.  It actually scared some of my training partners and
made them paranoid.  And the only time I ever really used it was against this
huge guy (relatively speaking--I'm pretty modestly sized) and I set the right
pinkie nail against his neck.  Even drew a bit of blood.  After he got done
cursing me, he chased me around the dojo for a few minutes while everyone else
laughed hysterically.  Male bonding is a beautiful thing.

I've since converted my pinkie nails to their normal appearance.  I like to
keep my nails short (easier to climb around stuff) and I'm more confident about
my ability against the big bruisers.  But I admit that I still smile fondly
when I think about that guy's reaction when he felt something digging into his
neck but he couldn't figure out what the hell it was.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Speaking of Carradine and "Kung Fu"...
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:02:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.081553.20108@netcom.com> dsmythe@netcom.com (Dave Smythe) writes:
>In article <1993Jan23.040634.7600@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>Another good aspect of the show was its emphasis on responsibility  and 
>>non-interference...
>
>As I recall, they wanted to take the *hand* and he refused.  He eventually
>came back to have his hand removed and awoke to find that they had taken
>his whole arm.  

	Not quite.  They tried to save the hand but were not able to.  They	
	told him that he would have to lose the hand, and he refused to
	allow the apmutation.  The gangrene (or whatever) spread and they
	said the arm would have to come off.  He still refused.  Then the
	hokey pokey thing happened with the crow and he gave his permission
	to take the arm off.

>The woman ragged on him because he could no longer work, I thought.  

	 Yup, that's when the ever-so-satisfying "shut up woman" occurs.

>When Kwai Chang asked his obligatory question: why did you remove
>the whole arm? I think the answer was something like: If we took the hand
>then he might not really get the lesson.  By taking the whole arm, they
>pounded the lesson in and probably saved his life by getting him to give
>up gambling.  That's all from (old) memory, but I think it's right.

	Not what I got from the story.  The monk replied that the loss of
	the arm, while seemingly a sorrowful event, was perhaps a blessing 
	in disguise... valuable lessons and all that.  He also made mention
	that the decision to allow the arm to be removed was the sole right
	of the injured man.  I could not agree more.  There was none of that
	"we MUST save him fromi himself" bullshit.
>

	Andy V.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@dynastar.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: Evil Black Belts (Re: Fighting against animals?)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
	<C1HAtF.A44@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
	<1993Jan26.224240.8840@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1993Jan27.080013.17194@parc.xerox.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:24:09 GMT

>>>>> On Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:00:13 GMT, coombs@asta.uucp (James H. Coombs) said:

Jim> In article <1993Jan26.224240.8840@midway.uchicago.edu> wag5@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <C1HAtF.A44@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@cineret.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:

>	I seem to recall the Marines getting into severe trouble
>when, on a training exercise, a number of trainees were killed
>by the training, leading to an overhaul in the way the M.C. functions,

Jim> I don't remember the details.  A DI took his troops into that swampy
Jim> crap around Parris Island, and several drowned.  That was a LONG time
Jim> ago.  I was at PI in 69, so I think it must have been early 60s.

But there were some much more recent incidents (late 80's).  Basically
they involved heat related damage.  Making people stand at attention
for hours in the sun on the tarmac, I think.  Several passesd out from
heat stroke/dehydration.

Another case I recall was similar.  The instructor made some students
do pushups on the tarmac and got third degree burns on their hands.  I
believe this one led to some serious chanes of teaching policy.
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: satadd00@nx07.mik.uky.edu (scott andrew taddiken)
Subject: Re: Judo: the value of competition.
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:00:52 GMT

I wrote:

>>The following things are not in dispute:
>>
>>1) Randori (free practice) is the most important form of judo training.
>>2) Competitions are a useful form of judo training.
>>
>>If you do dispute these things, I will reproduce quotes from the relevant
>>text(s) to show you that you and Kano do not agree.

And Dave responded:
>  ...the above is in dispute. Kata placed a very important role in
>Judo. Draeger's "Formal Techniques of Judo" print several statements
>from the diaries of Kano to this effect.
(snip)

Dave has read my quotes.  If anyone missed them, I would be happy to oblige.
Kano clearly says that randori is the _most_ important form of training.  Then
comes kata.  "Kata" in this context should be translated "set practice",
because it seems that Kano was referring to all prearranged exercises to
contrast them with free exercises.  (BTW, of course kata is also important.
Randori/kata, like spontineity/consistency are a yin/yang type of thing for
good judo, and are inseparable).

In this, judo (_Kodokan_ Judo, of course) differs vastly from the many jujutsu.
In some jujutsu schools, randori was simply not done, or was limited to what I
would call "counterattack katas with branching", where I mean branching in the
sense of binary trees--if tori failed, uke became tori and chose between two
attacks, and so on.  In other jujutsu schools, randori was forbidden to the
beginner; once he had mastered the kata, he could begin randori, but the
emphasis on kata remained.

For some time I have been harboring a suspicion that Dave was a practicioner
of a non-Kodokan judo.  As such, he is certainly free to criticize our art, and
its rules for competition.  But one should realize that he does this as
something of an outsider.

>So, the best working definition of Judo is not Kodokan Judo.
(snip)

I figured as much.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Taddiken, University of Kentucky
From: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fighting against animals?
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:02:42 GMT
Reply-To: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <C1FLD2.EoJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@cineret.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>
>Are there any books, or any info... or even an ART that teach how to defend 
>against animals?  

OK, stand back, I've got a Ph.D. in dog killing.

Here's the gen...

There are two ways to deal with a lunatic dog - which one exactly depends on
the kind of dog.

	method 1. Pretend you are shit scared of the beastie and that you
		  will be its slave for life.  It will then be so disgusted
		  with you that it will scram.

	method 2. Pretend that you are making preparations to *eat* the
		  critter alive - slowly - and that you don't care if he's
		  got fleas.  It will then crap its load and run away.

HOWEVER - if you try method 1 on a type 2 dog, or method 2 on a type 1 dog
	  you will be chewed into small bloody bits, and probably buried
	  in the nearest garden along with his store of bones.

Soooo - here's how you tell a type 1. from a type 2.

First, 
A8 ensure787%^%
Bus Error.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:30:48 -0500 
From: Christopher John Demlein <cd2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: IKKA info needed



Does anyone out there have the 1800 number for the IKKA?  I could also
use the name and number for the regional head in Pensylvania.  If any
one has this info I would GREATLY appreciate them e-mailing it to me.

Thanks,
Chris

cd2b@andrew.cmu.edu



Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts