From: smccabe@author.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah A McCabe)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Further Dehumanization of Women (was Re: Catholics for a Free Choice)
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:13:07 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Jul27.052259.18230@cc.uow.edu.au nyikos@cc.uow.edu.au (peter nyikos) writes:
>fkissling@igc.org (Frances Kissling) writes:

>>Nancy Felipe Russo  Interestingly, we can agree to turn off the
>>machines when adults are "brain dead."  Why can't we agree on
>>access to abortion before the developing human becomes "brain
>>alive?"
>
>For once, a serious question.  And the answer is that the situations
>are not symmetrical.  Even with life support systems, a brain-dead
>person dies without ever [re]gaining consciousness.  On the other

In one of the most glaring offensive examples of completely ignoring
the humanity of the female person carrying said fetus we have:

>hand, an embryo comes with a life-support system that puts 
>artificial ones to shame, and left to itself [...] will become
>conscious in a few months. 

Nice to know that in Mr. Nyikos' world women are no more than
complicated life support systems and that a fetus in the womb
is "left to itself".  I guess that life support system that surrounds
it is just along for the ride since it obviously is not a person
in her own right.

>[Discussion of fetal brain development deleted.  Mr. Nyikos' reference
>is a 1951 article.  Would someone please give him some more recent 
>information on brain development and myelination?]
>
>
>>     When the "difference" is this--fetus same as infant/fetus
>>different from infant--both sides are appropriately horrified by
>>claims or arguments of the other.
>
>The author's true colors begin to show more clearly.  The pro-life
>belief mentioned in the preceding paragraph is something about which
>the other side is "appropriately horrified."

How do you translate "both sides are appropriately horrified by claims 
or arguments of the other" as "pro-choice side is appropriately 
horrified by claims or arguments of the pro-life, but the 
reverse is not true"?  Tell me now if English is not your native language 
and I will stop attacking your reading abilities as comparable to that of a 
third grader.  (Of course I won't stop pointing out your egregious errors.)

>[arguments comparing abortion to infanticide deleted]
>>, I am equally horrified at the thought
>>that there are people who think women are murdering their babies,
>>that they are committing, albeit unconsciously, child abuse and
>>that they should be compelled to continue a pregnancy against
>>their will.  These people scare me....
>
>As long as there is no inclination to punish the women, only the
>abortionists, as happened all through what NARAL calls the 
>dark years, why is this woman scared?

So you support not punishing people who contract murder for hire?
What about the woman who self aborts, is she treated as an
abortionist?  Oh that's right, complicated life support systems
do not have the capability to make conscious decisions and therefore
cannot be held accountable for their actions.

>[the discussion diverges to the question of personhood]
>
>>     I had a premature infant many years ago, and it was clear
>>when he was born that the technology available could not save him
>>beyond a few hours, but I had the strongest sense of his
>>personhood, gave him a name (which I would not recycle in that
>>generation), baptism, a private funeral.  I think that's rather
>>common--but you don't hear of people baptizing early miscarriages
>>even if they are indeed very sad.
>
>How can you baptize someone you can't find?  If all you see is the
>chorionic sac [See my post, THE REAL LOWDOWN ON "CLOT," "CLUMP OF
>CELLS," AND "FETUS"] and have no idea that there is a fetus within,
>you are stuck.

Excuse me?  You have a miscarriage, expel a chorionic sac (or
lump or stuff as we lay persons call it) and you have no idea
that there is a z/e/f in there?  How stupid do you think women,
I mean complicated life support systems, are???  Wait, strike
that, I think we have ample evidence of your opinion of the
capabilities of women already.  No need to insult us further.

>Peter Nyikos

Sarah McCabe
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc