HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brian@socrates.umd.edu (Brian Sobus)
Subject: Arthurian Question
Keywords: Arthur, Giant
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:31:26 GMT

     Does anyone know of a scholarly book which discusses Arthur's battle with
the giant of Mount Saint Michael?  This battle occurs not only in Monmouth's
_History_, but in Malory's _Works_ and _The_Death_of_Arthur_, as well.  I'm
interested mainly in why this particular story has lasted so long in the
Arthurian Legend.  I can't seem to figure out a reason as to why this story
would last and not some other story.

-Brian
brian@socrates.umd.edu
 
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian John)
Subject: Greek Cult
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:48:54 GMT

   Does anyone know of a good reference to Greek Cults?
There was actually a Pythagorus cult which combined
mathematics and Religion (I know it sounds bizarre, but
then the Greeks went for the bizarre in life 8^). Anyway,
I'd like to find out some more regarding this cult.

					 Brian.
From: WJR@Go-Player.SCH.Symbolics.COM (Wayne J. Rasmussen)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Dugpas
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:30:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Apr9.133018.1850
Reply-To: <wjr@PHOENIX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Organization: Symbolics Tech. Support
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-15247]: go-player.sch.symbolics.com

Just want to know,

Has anyone heard of the word 'Dugpas' from any myths?
I is a term used in Twin Peaks for an evil magician. 
Please send email to me.

Thanks,
Wayne J. Rasmussen

wjr@symbolics.com
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: bcushman@gluttony.reed.edu (Ben Cushman)
Subject: Re: Who is god of the underworlds?
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:50:29 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.225239.3577@visual.spk.wa.us>  
jprevost@visual.spk.wa.us (Jack Prevost) writes:
> In article <s877rINNnkg@agate.berkeley.edu> lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Cosma  
R. Shalizi) writes:
> >In article <1992Apr11.204356.29701@acsu.buffalo.edu>  
bohm@acsu.buffalo.edu (Eric J. Bohm) writes:
> >>Hel    - Norse/Teutonic
> 
> It should also be noted that not only was Hades the name of the Hellenic
> God of the Dead, but also the underworld itself.

	We should also note that the world Hell is derived from the Norse  
goddess Hel (Hel is a goddess-- I don't think that has been mentioned yet,  
and might disqualify her as a "god of the underworld").
	Previous to the appropriation of the easy-to-say word "Hell", the  
Christian land of the damned was called all sorts of things-- Pandemonium,  
the Inferno, etc.
	The use of the word Hell, like the reverence of the Virgin Mary,  
the celebration of Christmas in December, trees on Christmas, eggs on  
Easter, etc.  is an interesting pagan carry-over in modern Christianity.   
I think that this mixture of myths might be an interesting discussion  
topic-- anyone going to bite?


					Ben Cushman
					Reed College
From: ijd@otter.hpl.hp.com (Ian_J Dickinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:00:11 GMT
Subject: References sought: Robin Hood
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology

Does anyone have any references to the Robin Hood myth: ie pointers to
folklore, historical analysis or fictional retellings?  I would also be
interested in cross-pointers to green man / Jack-in-the-Green sources as
well. 

Thanks in advance,
Ian


|Ian Dickinson    HP Labs Bristol (Knowledge Based Programming Dept)   England|
|Email: ijd@hplb.hpl.hp.com    | Enough if something from our hands have power|
|   These opinions are mine,   | To live and act and serve the future hour    |
|  and not (necessarily) HP's  |                                 - Wordsworth |
From: hb0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Heather L. Broud)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Morpheus
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:56:24 GMT
Organization: Sophomore, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


>I only know of one story, when he comes
>to a woman in her dreams, as her drowned husband.  She didn't know how or
>when he died, but she had the feeling.  It was up to Morpheus to let her know
>exactly how it happened in the form of her husband.
The woman (Halcyone) prayed to Juno for her husband's safety even after
he (Ceyx) had been drowned.  Juno sent her messenger Iris to Somnus, the
soother of care-worn hearts, and commanded that he send a dream to
Halcyone.  Somnus summonded Morpheus for this task. 

>I know (I think) that Morpheus is the son of Somnus; a brother of two, who
>are the Dream masters of animals and objects while Morpheus is the Dream
>master of humans.
Icelos is the brother who imitates beasts while Phantasos imitates objects.

--- Heather
ps- This information comes from Bulfinch's Mythology.
From: jdravk+@cs.cmu.edu (Jeanette Dravk)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:52:59 GMT
Organization: Barbie's Dream Dungeon

In article <hassink.702683684@manning> hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian John) writes:
>
>From what I recall of my mythology, one of the epics of Gilgamesh
>dealt with travelling to the land of cedars (Lebanon) where Gilgamesh
>and Enkidu encountered a Dragon who's name escapes me. This mythology
>is well over 3000 years old, but the modern translation may have 
>substituted 'dragon' for lack of a better descriptive term of the
>monster.


The dragon sounds like Tiamat, but seems unlikely.  In the Enum Elish
(c. 1500 BC) Tiamat is described as the sea (dragon) who, with Apsu her
consort (fresh water) gives birth to the new Babylonian gods.  However
later one of these children, Marduk, battles first Apsu and then Tiamat and
slays them both.  Heaven and earth are created from Tiamat's body.

I don't remember the passage you're referring to in the Epic of Gilgamesh
offhand -- perhaps they were referring to a child of Tiamat?  Then again, 
there were at least two major creation/god stories so Gilgamesh may be founded
on something else.




j-


-- 
   "Ha! Mere flesh and blood desires mean *nothing* to Destructo-Kitty!"
From: andreasa@sofus.dhhalden.no (ANDREAS ARFF)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Sejder (Medecine-mens in ancient nordic mythology)
Keywords: Info
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:35:55 GMT
Organization: Ostfold College

I'd like some info. about sejd-mens. I've heard of local clubs around 
Gothenburg and I suppose there are some around Oslo. I live in Halden,
Ostfold so if there are any Sejdmens around here, mail me!
Else, if any of you know anything I'd like to know as much as possible about 
them.




Always remember: bugs@borland.com - You never know when you need it!!
              --Andreas Arff  andreasa@sofus.dhhalden.no--
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jpatters@willamette.edu (Jane Patterson)
Subject: sought: creation stories
Keywords: lilith
Organization: Willamette University, Salem, OR
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 00:37:00 GMT

I am posting for a friend who is looking for creation stories, and the hebrew
myth of Lilith, Adam's first wife, in particular. Please e-mail to
hcrabtre@jupiter.willamette.edu.
Thanks in advance!
From: magi@polaris.utu.fi (Marko Gr|nroos)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:58:48 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Computer Science

In article <hassink.702683684@manning> hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian John) writes:
> From what I recall of my mythology, one of the epics of Gilgamesh
> dealt with travelling to the land of cedars (Lebanon) where Gilgamesh
> and Enkidu encountered a Dragon who's name escapes me. This mythology
> is well over 3000 years old, but the modern translation may have 
> substituted 'dragon' for lack of a better descriptive term of the
> monster.

The 'monster' of the Cedar Mountain is called Humbaba. In the Finnish
translation of Gilgamesh it is described as a giant, although it has
some very dragonish characteristics, like "fiery mouth and breath of
death and voice like the sound of apocalypsis" (sorry for bad translations).

If I have understood it right, the Babylonian god Marduk has been
described as some sort of dragon, having body of a snake and claws of
a bird. ..or something like that..
  Since Tiamat, the other of the two gods that gave birth to all the
other gods, was a dragon, shouldn't all the other gods be dragons
too.. Hmm, strange..

> There are also occurences of 'Great Snakes', which could be considered
> dragons, in Greek myth as well. Jason killed a great snake gaurdian of

..as well as in the Finnish myth. Louhi, the Lady of Pohjola, had some
snakes guarding something.. They were propably dragons, since an
older version of the word 'lohikaarme' (dragon, literally: salmonsnake)
was 'louhikaarme' (literally: louhisnake) , which might mean that
Louhi's snakes could have been dragons.. Or that there isn't really
any word for an European or Oriental 'dragon' in the Finnish language..
Oh well.. Antero Vipunen only knows...

> 		   Brian.
> 	           hassink@manning.cs.ulaberta.ca

--
Marko Antero Gronroos    ! Tel. +358-21-445613 ! 
Karvataskunkatu 10 H 100 !                     ! Mythologists do it
20610 Turku              !                     !   with Goddesses
Finland                  !                     !
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Who is god of the underworlds?
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:24:43 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1992Apr13.034654.3919@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>In article <s877rINNnkg@agate.berkeley.edu> lizi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Cosma R. Shalizi) writes in response to another's list of names of "any god of the
>underworld.":
>
>>>Dis    - Roman
>>>Pluto  - Grecian
>>>Hel    - Norse/Teutonic
>>>Anubis - Egyptian
>>>	Thats all I can recall without a reference.
>
>>Eeek! No, no, no!
>>Pluto - Roman, identified with
>>Hades - Greek
>>Anubis - Egyptian, assistant to
>>Osiris - Egyptian, and really in charge
>>Yama - Hindu
>>  The name of the Chinese god escapes me at the moment. Persephone
>>(L. Proserpina) was the classical _goddess_ of the dead, & Hades/Pluto's
>>wife. Dis was a Roman god of the earth/soil, who became identified with
>>death in the obvious way.
>
>
>	Cosma's post brings up some good points--  most important of which,
>I think, is that even within one group of myths, there are several deities
>affliated with the underworld.  To take classical Greco-Roman mythology, for
>instance, there is Hades/Pluto as the ruler and Persephone/Proserpine as his
>queen.  There are plenty of other divine beings associated with the under-
>world though--  the Titans, the Furies, Sleep, Death, Night, etc.  I suspect
>that the original poster was just looking for the name of just one god, but
>this does seem like an important point to keep in mind. 
>
>	But, just to add to the list of one name/mythos/one underworld, let
>us not forget the biggie of Christian myth--  Satan/Lucifer.
>

Well to be picky, Satan/Old Nick/the Devil/Himself does not have "godlike"
status in Christianity.  And he's not regarded as the ruler of the underworld,
he's regarded as the ruler of this world.

pedantically yours

alisonjw@spider.co.uk

>	--  Jim C.  jchokey@leland.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: dstalder@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Darren Stalder)
Subject: Shinto
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:16:28 GMT

David Rose (rose@acf9.nyu.edu) writes:
>the Japanese Shinto religion has someone (or ones, its a beauracracy
>apparently) but I don't know the names.

Shintoism has many many different shrines all over Japan, each to a
different kami (god/spirit).  Each of them is based on a specific spot,
focused on nature.  Kami actually is not a spirit or god but is
correctly translated as `anything that causes reverence or awe.'  Also,
Shinto is Shin (Kami) + to (way) or the Way of the Kami.

These are the things that I can remember.  The religion (actually they
call it a philosophy, not a religion) that has a beauracratic focus is
Confucianism.

Any Shinto or Confucious scholars out there, please correct me.
--
Security	Torin/Darren Stalder/Wolf
   or		Internet: dstalder@gmuvax.gmu.edu
 Freewill.	Bitnet:   dstalder@gmuvax
  Choose.	ATTnet:   1-703-845-1000
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DISCLAIMER: A society where such disclaimers are needed is saddening.
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Date: 10 Apr 92 01:40:52 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr6.140851.24807@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> grindley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Robin Grindley) writes:
>Did the Chinese originate [the dragon], and if
>so how did it get into western culture (and when). Is it possible that
>the Kimodo dragons have anything to do with the origin of the myth.

The problem with the dragon is that the dragon of the orient has about
as much to do with the dragon of europe as either of these has to do
with the dragon of modern fantasy fiction, which is to say, not much.

Even less, actually, since the dragon in modern fantasy fiction probably
derives some sentiment from both.

The oriental dragon is a creature of air and mountain.  This dragon, or
lung (in mandarin) is a rarified creature, much like a spirit of the
elements.  The lung is a patron of emperors (5 toed, imperial dragons),
and is associated with fairly benign powers.

The european dragon is a creature of earth, and generally has connotations
of evil, rapine, and suchlike.  Dragons are often portrayed as symbols
of evil incarnate, of the Serpent (of Eden).

Other than that the representation of both is that of a winged reptile,
I am not sure they have much in common.  We don't refer to quetzocoatl
(the feathered serpent of mezoamerica) as a dragon, but he has a similar
sort of representation.

The cherokee had entities which they call dragons, which seem to be 
associated as guardians of the land, and creatures of the mountains.  The
last reported sighting of a dragon in the Blue Ridge Mountains was in the
1700's.  At one point, the cherokee report, a dark skinned people--
perhaps Africans--invaded what is now the southeastern US, and the dragons
helped the humans repell the invasion.  But by the time the white men
came to these shores, many of the dragons -- all the really intelligent
ones -- had gone to another world. (Dhyani Ywahoo, [forget the name of
the book], Shambhala, recent and in print).

Problem is, when westerners came in contact with Lung, they translated
the word as Dragon, much as Dhyani Ywahoo uses the word dragon for a
creature that probably bears little resemblance to the european idea
of dragon.

I doubt that the myth travelled east to west.  I don't have any available
material that dates the origin of either myth.  

However, I guarantee that neither had their origin in the Kimodo dragon,
which only came to the attention of literate cultures within my lifetime,
I believe.  There might have been some large lizard within human times
that inspired dragon legends, but if so, it was very rare or boneless...


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Who is god of the underworlds?
From: gjg2001@andy.bgsu.edu (gjg2001@andy.bgsu.edu)
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:27:24 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: bgsu

I'm trying to figure out the god of the fucking underworld is.  Any underworld
would be fine.
From: pholland@iastate.edu (Paul J Hollander)
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:56:01 GMT

In article <trent.052q@termnet.chi.il.us> trent@termnet.chi.il.us (Brian Issleb) writes:
>In article <hassink.702683684@manning>, hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian
>John) writes:
>>>Hello all, just a quick question for some mythologist. My girlfriend and i
>>>were at the museum and saw in a display on the Orient that dragons 
>>>only started popping up in their mythology in the 7th century AD (or 
>>>some date like that). This seemed late. Did dragons sprout up earlier 
>>>anywhere else? (Some friends seem to think that ancient Celtic myth had
>>>dragons, but this is just a guess.) Did the Chinese originate it, and if
>>>so how did it get into western culture (and when). Is it possible that
>>>the Kimodo dragons have anything to do with the origin of the myth.
>>
>>From what I recall of my mythology, one of the epics of Gilgamesh
>>dealt with travelling to the land of cedars (Lebanon) where Gilgamesh
>>and Enkidu encountered a Dragon who's name escapes me. This mythology
>>is well over 3000 years old
> (Much deleted)

There are "dragons" on the Ishtar Gate of Babylon.  Don't know the age off hand
but has to be considerably pre-Christian.

L. Sprague de Camp wrote a novel (_The Dragon of the Ishtar Gate_ ???) where 
the hero had to catch a dragon for the Persian king.  The king's magician
claimed to have seen a baby kept by the Babylonian priests.  The "dragon" came
from central Africa where there are several 5-6 ft long monitor lizards.
This isn't mythology, but is a rational explanation for the origin.

China has a species of alligator in the Yangtze (spelling?) River, fairly 
rare now.  The Chinese dragon is shortlegged and big headed, quite reminiscent 
of an alligator, IMHO.

Just my $.02.

Paul Hollander    pholland@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.


Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 03:47:42 GMT

In article <hassink.702683684@manning> hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian John) writes in response to this question:

>>Hello all, just a quick question for some mythologist. My girlfriend and i
>>were at the museum and saw in a display on the Orient that dragons 
>>only started popping up in their mythology in the 7th century AD (or 
>>some date like that). This seemed late. Did dragons sprout up earlier 
>>anywhere else? (Some friends seem to think that ancient Celtic myth had
>>dragons, but this is just a guess.) Did the Chinese originate it, and if
>>so how did it get into western culture (and when). Is it possible that
>>the Kimodo dragons have anything to do with the origin of the myth.
>
>From what I recall of my mythology, one of the epics of Gilgamesh
>dealt with travelling to the land of cedars (Lebanon) where Gilgamesh
>and Enkidu encountered a Dragon who's name escapes me. This mythology
>is well over 3000 years old, but the modern translation may have 
>substituted 'dragon' for lack of a better descriptive term of the
>monster.
>
>There are also occurences of 'Great Snakes', which could be considered
>dragons, in Greek myth as well. Jason killed a great snake gaurdian of
>the golden fleece, and I think the founding of Thebes had something to
>do with the teeth of a great snake though I'm not positive on this. So
>the term 'Dragon' could aptly describe these creatures. 
> 

	Yes, I think that part of this whole question is "What do we 
consider to be a dragon?"  If one simply considers a dragon to be any
sort of large reptilian or snakelike monster, then dragons can be be
found from the very beginnings of European and Middle-eastern myth.


	To add to the list of great snakes from Greek mythology cited above:
there are also the Python slain by Apollo at the founding of Athens, the 
winged dragons carrying Medea's chariot in Euripides' play, the Lernean
hydra (one of the labors of Hercules), and probably quite a few others
as well.  You are right about the founding of Thebes being related to
the teeth of a dragon.  Cadmus fought a dragon/python/call-it-what-one-
will, took its teeth after slaying it and placed them in the ground.  These
became the future inhabitants of Thebes.  (This is told in Ovid's
Metamorphoses, but is probably a much older tale.)

	One might even want to consider the serpent from the garden of Eden
to be a dragon . . . it isn't large, but it's certain malicious and reptilian.

	-- Jim C/  <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
From: bohm@acsu.buffalo.edu (Eric J. Bohm)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Who is god of the underworlds?
Date: 11 Apr 92 20:43:56 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: UB
Originator: bohm@lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu


In article <9835@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>, gjg2001@andy.bgsu.edu (gjg2001@andy.bgsu.edu) writes:
>I'm trying to figure out the god of the fucking underworld is.  Any underworld
>would be fine.

Dis    - Roman
Pluto  - Grecian
Hel    - Norse/Teutonic
Anubis - Egyptian

	Thats all I can recall without a reference.
-- 
Gothmog AKA Eric Bohm
[ It can be shown that a neat .sig file can be created and that there exists  ]
[ a valid address for this user. (the proof is left as an exercise for the    ]
[ student)							              ]
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 03:13:27 EDT
From: ISHKATE <JAM184@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Whence the dragon?
 <hassink.702683684@manning> <1992Apr8.034742.15758@leland.Stanford.EDU>

Another addition to the list, although I'm totally uncertain of the time
frame involved, might be the Midgard Serpent (Jormungandr) of Norse
mythos...  Again, I make no claims of this being the origin of dragons,
simply a possible early example.
*************************************************************ISHKATE
From: hulsey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Diana Hulsey)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Philosophy and Myth
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:48:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

An interesting text to look at if you are interested in the distinction
between philosophy and myth in European culture is the _Protagoras_ of 
Plato.  This is a dialogue which discusses why you should study sophistry,
(Protagoras being a notable sophist.)  Plato has Protagoras express himself 
both by telling a myth, and by formal argument.  

Other, later stuff that comes to mind is Camus'_Myth of Sisiphus_ and
Nietsche.  

I am sure there is alot more than this to draw from.  

Diana
From: oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: ALCHEMY -- AND STUDENT CLUBS
Summary: Theoretical framework ?  We don't need no stinkin' ...
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:49:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.1992Apr7.165000.1637
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr6.155609.13867@PA.dec.com>, stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes...
> 
>As written in the organizaton's constitution, it sounds very worthwhile to me.
>The value, from my perspective, would hinge on what Tagi referred to as
>the 'theoretical framework.'  It has been very specifically stipulated as
>'science,' which is a cultural activity with a somewhat specific set of 
>criterion of value.  It is very easy to either; get lost in the
>content of elaborate belief systems and lose the required detached
>perspective for study; or to be unable to become involved enough to
>understand the symbols of the system within its proper context.
> 
>Typically, 'occultists' get too involved, 'skeptics' are not involved
>enough, and 'scholars' can't make up their minds about it.  :)
> 
> Tagi Mordred Nagashiva at Tagi@cup.portal.com writes...
> 
>>Not only the 'mechanics' but the theoretics from which these arts developed
>>are a necessary ingredient to understanding them.  If you don't get the
>>idea-construct within which this is considered reasonable, then you will
>>not be able to construct your own experiments accurately.

Yo Rick (or some other founding member):

Wasn't the constitution written in a particular way to ensure that it would be
approved by the university administration, in order to avoid the problems ARSA 
(Alternative Religion Student Association) experienced - thus the term 
"science?"

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.mythology