HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: More fogey fighting
Date: 17 Nov 1992 21:25:16 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov17.064712.15039@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
>In article robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>>But keep in mind that this discussion started when some little snotnose 
>>punk claimed 10th dans were full of shit and that he could kick butt
>>on any 70-year-old he met.

>I'm punk/jerk/whatever who started the old fogey fighting thread
>by remarking that I had never met a fighter of 70 years or more
>who stood much of a chance against a 20 or 30 year old fighter

Oh, I'm sorry.  My apologies.  You were indeed the person who started the 
discussion.  I was thinking of the other guy.

>   o   No one who actually admits to being whupped by an old 
>       fogey.

Well, if it would make you happy, I could try to find some 75-year-old T'ai
Chi teacher and have him bounce me off walls for a while....  :-)

But seriously, I think it has more to do with the relative availability of 
75-year-old martial artists who are still teaching the public.  I just can't
believe that people remain formidable fighters into their sixties and then 
all of a sudden go feeble in the span of a couple years.  I think more likely
they just retire.


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
From: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Combat effectiveness?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 08:39:42 GMT
Reply-To: parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Distribution: world
Organization: Masterful Enterprises UnLimited.

Okay, bearing with my usual contraversial threads...:

Now, in my time, I've done a few arts, and have always looked out for
combat effectiveness.

Judo I dismissed right away, and TKD shortly after.  Sumo wentdown the
pipe.

So, I was left with styles of kung fu, karate, aikido, and ju-jutisu.

Now, I want to know what you lot consider the single most effective
fighting art.  Look at it from all angles - sure, and aikidoka can grab
a karateka in an arm lock, and break his arm, but while he's doing that
(assuming equal speed on both parts), the karateka can punch him out.

And so forth.

Yes, this is designed to be flamed - go for it! ;-)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: anderson@fermi.phys.ualberta.ca (Warren G. Anderson)
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:50:54 GMT

 Richard Parry writes:

>    We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
>    something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.

Interesting attitude. I love physics and I make a (meager) living out of 
doing it. I don't really feel like I'm cheapening it. By your philosophy,
if anyone has a job doing something they love they should give up the job
so that they can get one doing something they don't love and then just 
pursue the thing they love on a hobby level. 

All the best. Hope your doing something you dislike suitably for a living.
--
########################## _`|'_ ##############################################
##  Warren G. Anderson     |o o| "... for its truth does not matter, and is  ##
##  Dept. of Physics       ( ^ )  unimaginable." -J. Ashbery, The New Spirit ##
##  University of Alberta  /\-/\      (anderson@fermi.phys.ualberta.ca)      ##
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Beginner's questions about Chi
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:19:29 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

I ask this from the standpoint of someone who has been at the cutting edge of
rock climbing for 20 years, but whose martial arts training is, er, 
informal and esoteric. 

Everyone has internal reserves, emergency power, a sort of switch in your
head, which comes into play when things get extreme. High standard climbing
,I beleive, trains you informally to access this at will, to a degree. When
the switch clicks, everything goes quiet, things seem to happen in slow motion
soo you have all the time in the world to plan and act, and you can do power
tricks which blow your mind afterwards! In the few confrontations in which
the tried and trusted method of running away very quickly has not worked, I
have found this effect more than adequate.

What are the net views (I hestitate to say wisdom) on the link between
this effect and the concept of training to access chi?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mhirsch@volkl.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Subject: Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:40:07 GMT

>>>>> On Fri, 20 Nov 92 15:06:54 GMT, schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) said:

SC> 	Well, Renie, this is one of those questions which I've often wondered
SC> myself. But, a more interesting question is this:
SC> 	Could an evil Batman defeat Superman? Even if batman were old and
SC> decrepit?

That's silly, Stephen.  Batman is only a comic character, but Superman
is _real_.  Of course the real person would win!

But it would sure be a good fight, wouldn't it?


P.S. Anyone else see Stand by Me?  Great flick.
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: hurd@fraser.sfu.ca (Peter L. Hurd)
Subject: Re: Kendo tournament report
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:08:23 GMT

>> 	When I think about it, a Kendo referee's job is incredibly
>> complex.  I'm sorry if I seemed to be complaining about the judging in
>> my match.  I really have no right to criticize anyone's ability to do
>> a job that I can't do myself.

This has been bugging me the last few days.  I have thought deeply and come
to the conclusion that we must have the ability to criticize people's ability
at things we cannot do.  I admit that my motive has something to do with the
fear that I will come to the conclusion that I cannot criticize politicians,
or superiors in the workplace.  But in context, I ask you Jonathan, have you
never seen a sensei criticize a students' kata, while admitting that he (she)
could not do it better that the student?  We cannot be perfect, we can can all
help eath other try, it's called coaching.  The ease, caution, and
sense of responsability, with which we dole out criticism are what we have
to watch, rather than the fear that the reply will be "oh yeah, well let's
see you do it smarty pants!

Pete (who knows a bad Yoko-geri keage when he sees one, but can't quite get
that propper foot angle himself).
>> --
>> jonathan byrd
>> jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
-- 
Pete Hurd, hurd@sfu.ca|
Behavioural Ecology   |
Dept.Biol.Sci., SFU.  |
Burnaby B.C., Canada  |"As miserable as ever" replied the enlightend Kyogen.
From: shulick@yankton.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: The art of head-butting!
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:38:01 GMT
Reply-To: shulick@yankton.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Vallen Software
Originator: shulick@yankton


Hello, all.
I've always wondered, how do you pull off a successful headbutt without
hurting yourself?  I've experimented/practiced a little bit (ow!), and
found that the part of the skull about three inches above the eyebrows
is a TOUGH spot in the skull.  It's ABOUT where the hairline recedes.  I
hit a wall w/ my head and it didn't hurt.. too much. :)  Call me
insane.. :)  I just would like to know how to do it correctly, as a
headbutt in a close, locked battle is a GOOD move.  Thanks.

-- 
Sam Hulick          | "You can't discover new oceans unless you have the
shulick@indiana.edu | courage to lose sight of the shore."  --Anon.
(NeXTmail welcome)  |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Question: fumikomi (foot-stamping)
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 14:38:39 GMT

In article <JON.92Nov20114048@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>Very interesting.  I have been taught not to stop, but to accelerate
>through.  In fact, I was taught that, at the time the front foot hits
>the ground, the front leg's shin bone must be at least vertical, and
>it is better if the knee is slightly forward of the ankle.

	I've kind of wondered about the method myself, but one thing about
Hamilton's Karate style was that the stances were very high, so an overcommit-
ment of your mass would tend to put your center in much more danger. That's
kind of the explanation I eventually settled on.

>  That way,
>you can continue to accelerate forward.  The reasoning is that the
>faster you charge in, the less opportunity your opponent has for a
>counterblow.

	But if you are overcommited to the first technique, then it will take
you longer to launch the second technique. And you might end up grappling with
your opponent, which is not what a Karateka wants to be doing.

>  The very last thing I'd want to do is stop right where
>my opponent has the perfect distance to hit me after parrying my
>strike.  To stop your forward momentum at the striking distance is
>like running the 100-yard dash, and trying to stop right on the finish
>line.  You'll be much faster if you try to run past the finish line.

	Actually Sensei's explanation was that you prep yourself like you're
going to do a sprint, launch yourself forward, and then plant yourself. The
lead leg goes into the ground, your hamstrings and glutes tighten up, which
straightens your legs & spine a little, and almost without any effort, your
fist shoots out and into your target (assuming you kept a loose shoulder).
	There isn't any lack of power (the heavy bag hops around quite happily)
and the recovery time is pretty quick.

	That's just the way that he taught it. And it seemed to work - I figure
he has his reasons for teaching it that way.
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: tac@cs.brown.edu (Ted A. Camus)
Subject: Aikido : jo vs. spear
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:46:46 GMT


  There is something I have always wondered about the jo.  Biographies of 
  O'Sensei note that he studied Hozoin ryu spear, but not the jo (although 
  there is mention of Daito-ryu "stick fighting").  When we study aikijo, 
  are we really imitating the movements of a spear rather than a jo, just 
  as a bokken is not a bokken but a katana?  In aikijo kata we have far 
  fewer end-reversals than in jodo kata, to the extent that one might 
  suspect that they were just thrown in at some point (of course unlike 
  the jo the spear is asymmetric, one would rarely if ever want to reverse 
  the position of the spear head).  Comments??

     -- Ted --

==========================================================
  Ted Camus                          Box 1910 CS Dept 
  tac@cs.brown.edu                   Brown University
  tac@browncs.BITNET                 Providence, RI 02912
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The art of head-butting!
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:24 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1eb1rdINN38l@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>In article <Bxu4FE.637@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, shulick@yankton.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>>
>>hurting yourself?  I've experimented/practiced a little bit (ow!), and
>>found that the part of the skull about three inches above the eyebrows
>>is a TOUGH spot in the skull.  It's ABOUT where the hairline recedes.  I
>>hit a wall w/ my head and it didn't hurt.. too much. :)  Call me
>>insane.. :)  I just would like to know how to do it correctly, as a
>>headbutt in a close, locked battle is a GOOD move.  Thanks.
>
>
>well, keep doing it for a while. experiment with different angles, striking
>areas, etc. let us know how things turn out.

Shouldn't that read:

	"Have your next-of-kin let us know how things turn out~

;-)

Steve
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: wut@acf3.NYU.EDU (Tom Wu)
Subject: Re: any dojos in the plainsboro/princeton area? (NJ)
Organization: New York University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:33:00 GMT

 
	I know some authentic Tai Chi master in the Highland Park
area. If you are interested, E-Mail me. But only if you are seriously
interested. He has about 30 years of experience in Tai Chi, and em
phesis on both philosophic and self-defensive aspect of the art.
That includes stationary and dynamic Pushing Hands.


				---Tom
.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:57:27 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <37740020@otter.hpl.hp.com> ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans) writes:
>
>How exactly do the operations in the USA work?
>
>How much do you pay?
>
>Are there commercial Judo outfits?
>
>Cheers
>
I would say some are commercialized and some are dediated to
the art.
I've met several so called teachers who know very little martial
art stuff but are great marketing guy.
My current teacher knows little about marketing and propaganda.
A while ago, he still operates at a loss.  And he has to take
out from his own pocket.  Now, I think he bearly breaks even.
I think tuition fee is usually higher in US.  Everything is expensive
here including the rent.  And I am willing to pay my Shifu.
He has to make a living too.
From: cobra@ziggys.cts.com (Ron Lee)  619/262-6384
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking with instep vs. ball
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 09:22:58 PST
Distribution: world
Organization: Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity, East of East SD CA

djulian@controls.ccd.harris.com (Danny E. Julian) writes:

} I was wondering what the general consensus was on kicking with the instep
} versus the ball of the foot when executing a round kick or a front (thrust)
} kick.  I was taught to use the ball of the foot no matter what since
} it was easy to break the bones in top of the foot.  I now notice that alot
} of people use the instep when performing such kicks.
} 
} Is one better that the other?
} 
} Which one would be better for an "actual" fight?
} 
} The reason I ask this is because alot of the people that use the instep 
} use pads to prevent injuries, but pads don't exist in "actual" fights.

Let's consider some more physiology here:

Some have mentioned the penetrability of the instep--especially in 
soft targets.  This is true.   The instep roundhouse also seems 
to allow a kick with more raw power; blasting through anything in its
way like a club or baseball bat.   However, if done too far out on the 
instep, closer to the toes; or if done with too much uncontrolled force, 
there is a risk of damage to the ankle due to a hyperextension caused by
the resistance of the target mass to the force of your kick.  The street 
pads (shoes) are really not very good for instep protection (and even 
Hi-tops, though they offer support, lend support to a flexed-foot 
position which is incompatible with an instep-exposing foot position.)

Some have mentioned the toughness of the ball.  This is also true.
Unfortunately, it is harder to learn (which certainly doesn't mean it 
shouldn't be taught) and harder to control.  I have seen many beginners 
(and upward) who tend to extend the foot at the end of the kick, thus 
delivering the kick with the end of the toe, or utilizing it as a 
maneuver to push the target radially away (as opposed to tangentally).
Unfortunately, most practitioners DO NOT understand that they are doing 
this, nor do they understand the differences in application (the one guy 
I know has control of this variation uses it very well, the others are 
easily blocked)

Let's get into physics:

Use of the ball of the foot concentrates all your energy into a spot 
roughtly 2" wide (more or less).  That's why it's so good for breaking 
boards.

Use of the instep spreads your energy out over 4" (more or less), 
allowing you to initiate with more force and feel it less coming back to 
you, but also spreading that energy over a wider target.

Use of the shin (as I've seen in only a couple posts--I'll have to try it 
next Tuesday night) will spread that energy over an even wider area.

Again, as the cliche' around her goes: "It depends on what you're trying 
to accomplish."

Best Bet:  Experiment--see what's right for YOU

Ron Lee
2nd Dan
Pacific Tang Soo Do, (Lakeside) San Diego, CA; USA [North America: 
Earth...]

              cobra@ziggys.cts.com - BBS (619)262-6384
                 Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity
From: nahilgendorf@honors.uoregon.edu (Nathan Hilgendorf)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: THE MASTER
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:12:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: honors.nahilgendorf.18
Organization: University of Oregon Honors College
NNTP-Posting-Host: lab8.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Nov20.223843.5591@oracle.us.oracle.com> glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo) writes:

>In article <axolotl.722221091@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>>fwong@bnr.ca (Frank Wong) writes:
>> >It's not too bad. Story is basically ; Jet Li comes to U.S. to visit
>> >his Sifu, has to battle bad white guy who has beat up Sifu and destroyed
>> >his herb shop (Bo Chi Lam). The fight scenes are o.k. , but there is
>> >no comparison to Once Upon A Time In China : Wong Fei Hong 1 & 2.
>>
>>I don't think many westerners will get to see Once Upon A Time in China 1 & 2,
>>since they are deliberately not subtitled.  (If I directed a film with 19th
>>century white kung fu experts called "Tiger" who spoke perfect Cantonese,
>>I'd make sure it wasn't subtitled. :-)
>>
>>Jet Li was the one using the umbrella, right?  Impressive, to say the least.
>>What styles is he best known for?
>>
>If you get the real copy, (not pirate copies from LD), it is subtitled.
>Yes, Jet Li used an umbrella in part 1, really good fighting scenes,
>you won't be interested in US martial art movies after seeing this
>quality one.


Minor quibble: Jet Li actually used an umbrella in Part II, as well.
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate Bullshit
    <1992Nov14.045400.26626@gagme.chi.il.us> 
    <Bxs2xn.AC7@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:54:15 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <Bxs2xn.AC7@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>Regarding older martial artists...
>
>
>Now if I were to get into a fight with one of these guys (why?),
>and they were stupid enough to fight me unarmed (unlikely) in
>a fair and open fight (even more unlikely and stupid), then I
>could probably beat him.  There are a few fortunate souls who
>
>Comments?
>
What is a fair fight?  

When I was 10,my family move to Tennessee from Connecticut.  My Yankee
accent and lack of size made me a target for every bully in the school.
Eventually my father figured out what was going on and asked me about it.
He suggested that I pick up a stick or a rock and use it.  When I suggested
that such a thing didn't quite seem right, he said" most of them boys
are biggerthan you - that don't seem right either."

A lot of fighting is about making sure it isn't fair, I think.

In one of Robert Parker's "Spenser" novels, there is a character who
is explaining to SPenser that he 's going to kick his ass.  In the 
middle of this, SPenser flattens the guy.  The flatterned guy looks up
and says "you hit me before I was ready", to which Spenser replies"
it's mostly about being ready".


Charles Yeomans
cyeomans@ms.uky.edu
yeomans@austin.onu.edu

P
accent and lack
From: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM (Garth)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Gunpowder & Armor
Date: 20 Nov 1992 16:17:03 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: garth@dojo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: dojo.west.sun.com

>I invite you to try this: I've seen flintlocks (more advanced technology
>than a flash pan) loaded. You can't possibly do this while jogging.

Ever been to a mountain man rendezvous?  The load flintlocks at a flat run.
In fact they do a lot of things I think would be very hard to do if you
didn't "live the life".
 
BTW, these guys that I am quoting from recognized experts in their fields
(Military History for the one, Small Arms and Artillery for the other).
I know this group like to argue with experts, so I guess I don't expect this to
change anyones mind, but I thought I would try.


	-Garth


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bud@ms.uky.edu (William K Glunt)
Subject: Re: 10th Dan & Badass Karate (belt system)
    <BOWERS.92Nov16110409@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> 
    <1e92d5INNivf@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:30:12 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1e92d5INNivf@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>
>
>we need to get this on the FAQ!
>
>as far as i know, the belt system was introduced by funakoshi. while on the
>topic of belts, did kano also use a belt system in judo? steve...bud...anyone?
>
>mukund


 As I understand it, the belt system originated in Japan in the
 late 19 th century with Kano.  It wasn't till the 1920s and on that
 karate folk started using belts.  

  The classical martial arts of Japan didn't/don't use belt ranks.
  There were various licences, but that's really a totally different
  ball of wax.


  Osu!

  Bud

-- 
Dr. William K Glunt     | Are you ABNORMAL?
APSU Dept of Math and CS| Then you are probably better than most people!
Clarksville TN          | Are alien space monsters bringing a STARTLING NEW
home phone 615 645 8938 | WORLD?  from _The book of the SubGenius_
From: rorem@lclark.edu (Eric Rorem)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Thank you
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:41:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Nov16.204103.4832
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

i hope this doesn't bother anyone, but i just wanted to thank all of the 
people who post to rec.martial-arts.  i've been on the net for 3 years now 
and rec.martial-arts is the only newsgroup i've never unsubscribed to.  there
is a consistent quality to the articles and the flame wars, if any, are 
generally constructive and some times turn into new, enjoyable threads.  i 
know that i probably shouldn't be posting this since it has no MA content, 
but i just wanted to show my appreciation.

thanks to all.

later,
eric
rorem@lclark.edu