HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long Range Handgun Ballistics
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:29:37 GMT


I posted earlier a request to compare 9mm and .45 ACP bullet performance
out to VERY long ranges - 900 yards; what I call the "Artillery Luger"
scenario.

I'd like to thank Breck Beatie, Brian Millin, and Don Schaefer for taking
the time to do ballistics program runs to provide the data I was
interested in. All used different programs and/or conditions; yet the
data correlated very well. The results were not what I had expected.

Not knowing much about long range handgun performance, and still being
an unrepentant .45-disliker (but no longer hater :) ), I expected to
see the 9mm sights set at some substantial angle to reach 900 yds, and
expected the .45 ACP to peter out before it got that far, like Iraqi 
tank gun projectiles in the recent war.

Instead, in all cases for both cartridges a superelevation of only 5
degrees (approx) is required to reach 900 yards. This seemed "intuitively"
wrong so I took out my Artillery Luger and sure enough at the 800 m max
setting the angle between the sights and the bore was about 5 degrees.

Retained energy may also be of interest, being circa 100 ft-lb for both
cartridges. I don't have my reference here, but the British came up with
a number for the minimum energy needed to incapacitate a man, which they
used in designing their .38 revolver. A comparison with the residual 
energy would be interesting.

So I didn't get the answer I was hoping to get; the one I got was more
interesting. And I now have firing tables in case the 200 and 300 m
highpower ranges are empty when the pistol range is full :)

Thanks again, gentlemen.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: "Puff the Magic Dragon"
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:37:09 GMT


Although this is getting far afield, a good book on the gunships is


Development and Employment of Fixed-Wing Gunships 1962-1972
Jack S. Ballard
Washington DC 1982: Office of Air Force History

It covers development and use of the gunships without the political
baggage of the Gervasi and Stockwell books. Gervasi's series, "Arsenal
of Democracy", is amusing in that the third edition contains some of
the same mistakes as the first, still uncorrected.



Re: the AC-130s:

1. The 7.62mm Miniguns are essentially useless, as one needs to get
too close to use them. The reason the "U" model has a 25mm is that the
20mm is getting marginal in terms of standoff.


Steve Bridges writes:
#In the early versions, one of the gunner's jobs was to lie on the open ramp
#to watch for SAM launches (secured to the aircraft via a "monkey" strap).
#In later versions, he got a blister to look out of.

They still like to use the open ramp. Occasionally during a sharp maneuver
or as a result of weather buffeting the observer falls out and has to be
pulled back in. I didn't believe it either, but the person who told me
has been involved with gunships for 20+ years, first 119s and now 130s.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M-98 Israeli Mausers?
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:52:50 GMT

I made the mistake recently of letting a friend of mine leaf through one
of my old copies of _Guns and Ammo_.  She found a piece where Garry James
mentioned that there has recently been "great numbers of Israeli M-98
Mausers... brought into The United States...."  These rifles have been
re-chambered by FN to 7.62 NATO, and James estimates their worth/cost to
be $85-125.  Supposedly they are in pretty good condition for surplus
rifles.  So naturally, she wants one, since she knows that there's an
extra walnut stock blank down down in the basement in my workshop that
hasn't been delegated to any other project yet.  (Ugh.  Does she realize
there are three different contours on an M-98 barrel???)
     Well, we went down to the "candy store" (the gun show in Albany this
afternoon) and found only *one* of these rifles in the whole darn show.
The chap that had it wanted $175 for it, which is quite a bit out of her
budget.  So, does anyone know a cheaper source for one of these rifles?
I don't get SGN, but borrowed an old copy (March?) from a friend and I
found no mention of any such rifles in it.
     Also, how easy is it to drill and tap one of them for a scope mount?
Can it be done in a simple home shop or are the tolerances too stringent?
Actually, stocking a multi-contour barrelled rifle sounds scary enough
by itself. :-)
     As ever, any help or pointers from any of my fellow gunners are
*greatly* appreciated.


John

******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Poll
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:01:15 GMT



TTC103@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
#If only one gun:  One of those 16 inchers off USS Iowa
#
#        [MODERATOR:  Doesn't it have to be over 18inches for ATF to
#         consider it a real rifle ... ?  Errr ... could be interesting
#         trying to convince a jury of the difference... :-) ]

Actually, it's 18" for shotguns and 16" for rifles.

I think the lands and grooves are wider than the 0.50" limit for
"destructive devices".



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm subsonic ammo
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:36:51 GMT


Paul Theodoropoulos writes:
##it has performed dismally, not much better than FMJ.
#   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#
#
#
#citations, please. otherwise, this is nothing but hot air.


Ed Sanow had a lengthy article dealing strictly with the 147 gr. 9mm
in an issue of Petersen's Handguns last year. Undoubtedly there is
similar mention in the Marshall/Sanow book.

Sorry I don't have the issue on hand Paul, but from memory I recall
Sanow saying that based on Marshall's stats the only 9mm loads worse
than the 147 gr standard load were 115 and 124 gr FMJ. +P 147 gr
is better I understand, but I don't know if it's still sunsonic. 

Marshall's empirical statistics may be flawed, but what else is there?


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Highpower Shooting Questions
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:30:45 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

I have two questions related to shooting in highpower rifle competitions:

(1) For those of you who have glass bedded rifles, do you disassemble the 
rifle to clean and oil it if it has been rained on?  I hear that frequent 
disassembly will ruin the glass bedding.

(2) Shooting the M1 Garand in a match -- how in the #$!@ does a left-handed 
shooter reload (insert a clip of ammo) the rifle with only his left hand?
For a right-handed shooter, this is a relatively trivial matter, but not so 
for a left-hander.

Thanks for any advice on these subjects.

******************************************************************************
| Bob Porro                    || (The opinions expressed here are not       |
| aeporro@venus.lerc.nasa.gov  ||  necessarily those of the management ?\*!) |
|                              ||                                            |
******************************************************************************
From: silly123@milton.u.washington.edu (Celia Nilson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser range finder
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:41:39 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


I just wondering where can i buy a reasonable Laser range fiinder for a hand
gun???  (It is a gift for my dad)
I have checked the local store, but they are quite expensiive.  

Thanks

Celia
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: revolver handling
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:01:30 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <1992Jul28.143520.23073@chpc.utexas.edu> lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley) writes:
 >In article <1992Jul27.172938.3975@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, tjohnson@xenon.stanford.edu (Ted C. Johnson) writes:
   ...
 >One hates even to consider such things, but cartridges can discharge as
 >a result of the heat, and if a round is in the chamber under the hammer,
 >it can fire through the barrel just as if the trigger had been pulled.
 >The explosion of rounds not in line with the barrel will merely blow the
      ^^^^^^^^^  ??                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 >gun apart, posing relatively little risk to firefighters and neighbours.
  ^^^^^^^^^  ??

Whatever gave you this idea?  Why should they "blow the gun apart", for
heaven's sake?  They'll just *shoot*, but out the chamber mouth instead
of into the barrel, and thus with considerably less "muzzle" velocity.
-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: smrtstr!"DONALD!PAUL"@uu.psi.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Davis Derringers
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:47 GMT

Has anybody ever shot one of those Davis Derringers?  They are small 2 shot
derringers that come in .22LR, .22Mag, .25acp and .32acp.  I was considering
getting one for camping.  I used to have an FIE .38 special derringer, and
that thing kicked like a mule with a 158gr bullet.  With the small grips
on the derringer, it was hard to hold on to when you shot it.  Does the 
Davis Derringer have a similar problem?  

Which caliber would be the best?  I have never shot a .25acp or a .32acp
before.  I question the knockdown power of a .25acp, though.  The .22Mag
sounds like a good choice, but it would loud as a mutha.  The .22LR would
be good, because the ammo is cheap and you could still shoot .22 shorts
and shotshells.  Let me know what you think.

Another question I have is the .25acp VS. the .22LR.
I saw a bunch of cheap .25acp semi autos advertised in Shotgun News for
$50-$100.  What would be the advantage of getting one of these over a
.22LR like the Jennings J-22?  The .25acp shoots a heavier bullet, about
50 gr, but it is much slower around 700fps.  It sounds pretty wimpy 
compared to 1000-1200fps from a .22LR.  Out of a 2 inch barrel, wouldn't
the .22lr be less though?  I shot a Jennings J-22 before and it was a
fairly accurate gun, and didn't jam very much.  It was loud though.  The
.25acp pistols seem like a waste, because the ammo costs more, and the
performance is about the same as a .22LR.  Let me know your opinions
about this one too.

One comment I have is about the Jennings .380acp.  It is a small gun,
almost the same size as the J-22.  This guy at the range let me shoot
his, and the .380 in that small of a gun kicked like a mule.  I couldn't
hit anything.  He had blood on his hand where the slide came back and
cut his hand.  I give the Jennings .380acp a thumbs down rating.
From: schow@sol.UVic.CA (Stirling Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 1903 Model M Colt 32
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:42:02 GMT
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA


   Hello,

      Could somebody please tell me an approximate price for a 1903 Model M
   Colt 32?  I don't know much more about this gun, I have read the article
   on them in the 1988 Gun Index, but no prices were listed.  You can 
   assume that the gun is in good to very good condition.  Thanks for the help.

   Cheers,
       Stirling
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: $5000 Shopping Spree
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:33:39 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Jul21.171200.144@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
#
##Guns magazine is currently running a contest in which the grand prize
##is a $5000 firearms shopping spree.  I thought this would be an interesting
##subject here.
#
##If you had $5000 to spend on firearms and/or accessories, what would
##you buy?
#
#Glock 20	21	23	19
#Ruger GP100 4"	Super Redhawk 7.5"	Mark II 4.75"
#Star Firestar nickel .40
#Astra A-100 nickel .45
#S&W 629 4"
#Taurus 85CH	94 3"
#Colt Gold Cup Commander stainless .45
#Charter Arms .44 Bulldog stainless, no shroud.
#SKS		Colt .223 sporter	
#
#
#At this point I'm sure I would be sick of guns entirely, give them
#all to the salvation army, etc.		;-)
#
#	Jim Del Vecchio.


With $5K I'd add a .45ACP "race"/pin gun to my collection, an FA
.22 silhouette revolver, an S&W model 629 w/ a 7 1/2" barrel (then
I'd sell my Redhawk that is excellent in all respects but not quite
as quick/smooth for DA action pistols).  Then I'd get a separate
Dillon SDB loader for every caliber: .44 spec, .44 mag., .45 ACP,
.38 spec., .357 mag. - I hate changing/readjusting die sets all 
the time. Have I spent all my money yet?   :-)

BDW
From: daveu@sco.COM (Dave Uebele)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sound levels of guns and loads, was Re: Ricochets
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:38:42 GMT
Organization: SCO Engineering, 150 Dubious St.


In article <1992Jul25.003039.24496@pacdata.uucp> pacdata!jimh@uunet.UU.NET (Jim Harkins) writes:
#They vary wildly.  Here in San Diego I suspect I could walk through
#with a steel trash can on my back, in Phoenix I have to remove my keys from

They can vary even in the same airport.  I motorcycled to the airport
(San Jose) so I had to go through one security station to get to a storage
locker (stashing motorcycle helmet, boots, and jackets) and a different
station to board the plane.  First station I walk though with no problems,
keyring, change, and belt buckle. Second station, I set off the scanner,
remove keys and change, no problem.  Leaving Seattle, I set off the scanner,
remove change and keys, still set it off, remove belt, still set it off.
Switch to hand wand, the only metal on me is on my feet (hiking shoes)
and a small earring.  Coming back to original station (SJ) to pick up
motorcycle gear, I set it off since I had slightly more change in my pocket
than when I left. Remove change and have no problem.
I was wearing/carrying approx the same items each time.  Any variation
was in luggage and that all went through the xray machine which by the
way, found an antique oil can I purchased in Washington.  The oil can
was an old style sheetmetal hemisphere with spout and flat bottom, but
thats another story.  I'll second that its a bad idea to try and carry on
a gun, you will probably be caught.

Getting back to guns. Does the Browning Buckmark have a design that
makes it louder than other .22's  My girlfriend bought one recently and 
when we took it shooting, it seemed significantly louder than a ruger
Mk2 .22 (another friends gun, going from memory of sound).  Also. I've
noticed quite a difference in report sound level when I handload 
my .45 colt with blackpowder (35 grains fff blackpowder) versus
factory .45 colt ammo.  Any ideas on why the blackpowder rounds would
be louder?  The friends who own the property where I shoot thought I
was shooting my Lee Enfield when I was firing the blackpowder rounds ;-).

dave
-- 
Dave Uebele	uunet!sco!daveu  or daveu@sco.com
From: johno@sdd.hp.com (John Ongtooguk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re:.308@1000yd
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:33:55 GMT

I received this response in a followup on the .308 @ 1000yds thread and 
thought that others might find it as interesting as I did. The gentleman 
clarified a question that I had on the conflicting claims that I've 
heard on the 30.06 vs the .308, corrected some opinions that I've nutured 
over the years, and tied everything up on the subject in one nice reply.  
  
John Ongtooguk (johno@sdd.hp.com) 

From:   bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com

Some comments.....

Most folks use a 1:11 twist in .308 match rifles. The exception is for
international Palma matches where 150 or so grain bullets are used; then the
twist is 1:13. When on the Navy Rifle Team years ago, we used 190 gr match
bullets in our 1:12 twist 7.62 Nato M1 rifles and they shot great. But that's
because the velocity was fast enough to stablize the 190-gr bullet in a 1:12
twist. A 1:12 twist in a 22-in. M14/M1A barrel is marginal for 173-gr. match
bullets; that's been known for 30 years.

The reason some M1A and M14 rifles have problems with their bullets going
subsonic at 1000 yards is the bore and groove diameters. If they are too
large, not enough pressure is built up to shoot the bullet fast enough to
keep it supersonic through 1000 yards. I've chronographed some and there is
about a 200 fps spread between the faster and slower shooting ones.

30-06 M1 match rifles did stablize the 173-gr. match bullet well as it shot
them faster than rifles using the 7.62mm Nato round. That's why most folks
use the 1:11 twist barrel these days.

Having shot highpower for 27 years at all levels of competition, including
being on the 1988 US Palma Team (I'm first alternate on the 1992 team) and
wore out a lot of barrels, I (and many others) know the 30-06 round wears
out barrels about 20% faster than the .308 Win. And magnums wear out barrels
about 300% faster than a .308. Magnums throw a wild shot once in a while;
I don't know why but many folks have observed this. The .308 is a much more
consistent cartridge for 1000 yard matches. I used to shoot a .30-.338 mag
for 1000 yard matches but have decided to use a .308 from now on.
From: les@ulysses.att.com (Leslie Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 Conversion for a Colt 45
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:34:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ, USA


In article <59181@mimsy.umd.edu> egolub@cs.umd.edu (Evan Golub) writes:
#
#    I have a nice little automatic handgun, a Colt 45, which I would
#like to buy a .22 conversion kit for.  I have not been able to track
#down a dealer who has these.  Does anyone out there have any idea as
#to where I can find one?
#
#
#					-Evan-


Cobray makes a cheapo conversion consisting of a barrel, recoil spring
and seven .45-shaped cartridge holders.  It sells for about $70
retail, and works semi-well.  The biggest problem seems to be chasing
the ejected holders and reloading them.  .22 cases often get stuck in
the holders also.  I wasn't happy with the one I tried - too tedious.

The Colt .22 conversion is no longer made, but they often show up used
for around $300.  It's a different top end (slide, barrel, extractor,
etc.) and a 10 round magazine.  I have one of these for my Springfield
Armory series 90 .45 and I'm very happy with it.  It fit right on
without any gunsmithing or problems, despite many IPSC/combat-style
modifications to the lower end.  I don't think it will fit on a Series
80 Colt unless the firing pin safety is removed.  I've heard rumors
that Springfield makes this conversion also, but for much more money.
--
  - Leslie Johnson  (les@ulysses.att.com) 1+908-582-5493
       "One Bell System - It Works"
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm subsonic ammo
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:26:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <9207201716.aa20951@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#After the FBI's FUBAR in Miami, they blamed the 9mm and pointed a finger
#at 115 gr. bullets allegedly underpenetrating. Casting about for a
#panacea, they came upon the 147 gr, JHP, and began using it in a role
#totally different from that which it was designed for. Not surprisingly
#it has performed dismally, not much better than FMJ.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


citations, please. otherwise, this is nothing but hot air.


-- 
paul theodoropoulos    hooools@well.sf.ca.us      damiel@netcom.COM
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Moving Fireworks?
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:17:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Jul28.171739.7022
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

buda@star.enet.dec.com (Mark A. Buda) writes:
: 
: In article <17360007@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, rjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Schneider) writes...
: 
: To ship Class B...  Do you want to do this legally?
: 
: Fed Ex will do it for a small fee.  Of course you must deliver and pickup
: the material from their docks.  There are only a small number of docks (Fed Ex)
: that will allow B material to be serviced.
: 
: To deliver, you must have a CDL with Hazmat, a medical certificate, a placarded
: vehical with bill of ladings etc.  I expect you will need to show a permit
: and/or a Fed permit to ship.  You will also need insurance on your vehicle
: for $5mil, if I remember correctly.

You also have to have a written route plan. If you are an interstate commercial
motor vehicle driver, then you must submit to controlled substance testing. You
must also have read/understand and follow the regs as set forth in the FMCSR.

I think you have the insurance requirements too high - I seem to recall it
being about $500,000 for interstate transport. I will try to remember to look
it up. By the way, the figures I saw were the proposed insurance requirements.
Are those in effect now or do others apply?

Bill
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Real throwdowns - Be careful!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:38:52 GMT

cpbeaure@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Beauregard) writes:
: >
: >TIGHT. This is the completed throwdown. Safety: Hold it by the end, NOT
: 
: What about using aluminum foil for this part.  Much easier to shape, and
: it probably wouldn't require nearly as much force as paper.  Or perhaps
: toilet paper, or just tape the thing together.
: 
: >Do not handle it roughly!
: 
: No shit?  It's only .5g of HMTD.  Shouldn't do much to your hand...

Hm - that is 500 mg of a primary explosive - which is far more powerful
than flash powder. How much flash powder goes in a standard firecracker -
50 mg?  I am not too sure that I would want such a quantity to explode
in my hands. I don't think that it do much harm - however, I know of no
quantitative studies where this has been tested. Remember that the old
fulminate blasting caps often contained less than 5 grams of explosive.

Now, if it were .5 grains of explosive, then I would not be nearly as
concerned.

Are you speaking from experience, Chris? If so, then it is a nice bit of
knowledge to have. Otherwise, hopefully there are one or two others out
there who have experienced such an explosion without harm. Arno, Petri?

Bill
From: pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Thermite
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:13:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

>samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) writes:
>:  
>: >If you had an explosion, it was probably due to a steam explosion due
>: >to moisture in the chemicals.  I have never used ferric oxide in the
>: >hydrated form for making thermite, so cannot make a guess at what the
>: >results would be.
>:  
>: Hydrated iron oxide = "moisture in the chemicals".  In the presence
>: of incandescent iron and aluminum a little moisture becomes a quite
>: impressive amount of hydrogen gas, which causes the explosions when
>: the thermite burns in an enclosed place -- like a crucible!  

	Another possibility is the particle size.  Either Shimizu or Ellern
	cautions that thermite can react with "explosive" speed IF THE PARTICLES
	are fine enough.  This is true of most reactants: finer & better mixed
	makes the reaction more vigorous.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
200 Forest St			|I am the NRA.
Marlboro, Mass		01752	pierson@cimnet.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics