From: kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.fi     (Kimmo Saarinen)
Subject: Re: Are you incapable ... (provocative)
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT/SAI)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:40:54 GMT

Hmm, one thing that annoys me on this forum (meaning the News-system),
that it forces the ideas here into a stereotype form.

To be explicit : I'm not defending Jarmo's behaviour. Lately I have
just skipped his articles. He should think his own motivations and
then his output or contribution. I'm one that say he has discredited
himself.

But before I go on (and before I forget) I raise the question :
how many of e.g. swedes (swedish as mother language) studies
finnish, and if very small number, why so few?

This has very close conncetion to the nordic cooperation : 
usually swedish is required and used in the nordic cooperation, 
but from courtesy reasons one could expect that close contacts in 
Finland having persons would study finnish.

To be explicit : from this point of view I don't feel _equality_
with the citizens of other Nordic countries.


In article <1992Nov12.141624.26653@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> 
qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
]me[
>>This Jarmo's case is an example.
>>Even though Jarmo don't put his words nicely, raves quite much, he
>>still have some points there behind his words.
>
>I am sure he does. He just manages to hide them real well.
>A counter-example: if I were to write an article about you, in which
>I would insult your ancestry, call you an oppressor, ask you when you
>stopped beating your wife, make allusions to some secret agenda of
>yours and continue with various other insinuations, and in between
>mention that you once stepped me on the toes, you would find that
>alright? I mean, I might have a point. You just might have stepped
>me on the toes, but I for one don't think that that excuses the amount
>of insults and abuse I heaped on you.

But if you clearly see that it is insane raving why don't you
rely on the intelligence of the other readers of this group and
let it go, skip, no reaction, let him talk to himself alone ?
If there is no solid grounds for the accusations etc. why
bother to defend ?

>>                                              If you try to get
>>them out. So eventhough Jarmo discredits his sayings with too much
>>raving, it doesn't give you freedom to rave yourself (and discredit
>>your own output) _if_you_really_are_as_civilized_as_you_want_to_show_out.
>>
>>Real test of your level of civilization.
>>
>>I can't say that I'm perfect in this kind of behaviour, I'm just human,
>>but I try.
>
>Right. We are all just human, and we all should try. This by no means
>gives Jarmo license to ignore that aspect.

Yes, it can applied to the Jarmo, too.

>>           These previous postings referring Jarmo as Mutlu was from
>>the most discusting ones I have ever seen here when thinking of
>>respectfullness and tactfullness towards a person.
>
>Yes? Really? So you think that Jarmo's comparison between Nazi-Germany
>and Sweden was just OK? You think something like that should be tolerated
>just because he *might* have a point in something else he said? You might
>even think it was justified? I don't think so - your post on the whole
>seems rather reasonable. But you see, *anybody* who makes a comparison
>between Nazi-Germany and something else had better have some exceptionally
>good reasons for it or be prepared to take some heat.

Heck, it wasn't justified action. And by this Jarmo did spoil the
whole thing. I did find the sarcastic and self irony loaded
responses like "Min Kamp"-thread etc. funny and well established,
and this kind of responses I would have expected more. If you are
serious, show it up, and if you are not serious, it should come up
somehow.

One thing that I learned from my own dogfight with Hasan B. Mutlu
was, that you can't compete with insanity by being reasonable 
yourself.

>>                                                   Usually these
>>characteristics are associated to the Nordic high idea of correct
>>behaviour and civilization, am I right ?
>
>Yes, and Jarmo gets trounced because he *doesn't* adhere to them
>himself.

I think that he will find it out himself after a period with
no responses to his articles.

>>To be expilicit : If you expect some respect towards you and your
>>ideas you should show some respect yourself. Otherwise you are not
>>better than your opponent what comes to the behaviour.
>
>Of course. This is the very principle Jarmo violates in the first
>place. That in itself doesn't really excuse the replies he get, but
>it helps explain them.

It helps explain, but it is on everyone's own decision accept
or not the same kind of behaviour from one oneself as from 
the opponent.

>first time. It isn't the second time either, and I should be real
>surprised if it was the third. In other words, HE KEEPS DOING IT!
>In the exact same insulting and raving way every time. If there is
>one thing that is sure besides death and taxes, then it is the Swedish-
>Finnish language war in soc.culture.nordic, and Jarmo instigates it
>every time!

Then ignore him. Be patient.

>All in all, I would say that you have some valid points, and to a certain
>degree you describe an ideal situation, but you might want to turn it 
>around and try to understand the people who again and again are insulted
>by Jarmo's ravings.

I do understand, at least I try. But my understandment doesn't 
help to keep the flame wars about the language question out of 
this group. So I merely count on you more reasonable persons out 
of there not to be provocated too easily to these flame wars 
(serious ones, the humorous ones I find entertaining).

Greetings,
		k@	(kcat)
-- 
========================================================================
Kimmo Saarinen                         ! e-mail  kissa@cortex.sai.vtt.FI
Technical Research Centre of Finland   ! ... here ... and there ...
Medical Engineering Laboratory         !       ... usually nowhere ...