From: baresson@cbnewsi.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Beast and Double-Fulfillment
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:23:34 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <Jul.28.02.53.19.1992.24747@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> portland!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>                             An Earnest Inquiry
>
>One letter that I recently received from a dispensationalist was an earnest
>concern as to whether double-fulfillment might account for Nero's
>"similarities" to the end times Beast of Revelation.  

The similarities I can think of are:
1.CAESAR OF THE ROMANS = 666
(Is there anything specific to Nero himself?)
2.Emperors demanded worship as Lord, which led to Christian martyrdom.
3.Nero can be regarded as a man of sin, an antichrist.
(Are there others, and who is the restrainer in 2Thess?)

>
>Dispensationalists have a number of ploys designed to escape the demands of
>biblical eschatology.  

Hmm, don't like the implications. I think this involves a difference
of understanding. For example, later in the article Gentry cites the 
individual emperors - whereas my understanding involved the 7 anti-
semitic world empires - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece
(the 5 fallen), Rome (the one that is) and the future Empire - call it 
the revived Roman empire if you like.

>The most absurd ploy is the insertion of convenient
>gaps into the biblical record. 

I am not sure why this should be regarded as a frustrating ploy, rather
an UNDERSTANDING of how the Bible was written, juxaposing near and far 
events together to build up faith, when the near events come to pass,
and hope, as we look to the yet unfulfilled events. Since God is an
extratemporal God, and can see the end from the beginning he can write
'future history' as if it happened yesterday - this is the basis of
prophecy. And there are gaps in prophecy which was future when it was
written and has since been fulfilled: take for example the progressive
destruction of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 27 and 28, which describes
both Nebuchanazzar and Alexander the Great's attacks, or Jeremiah's
description of the future expansion of Jerusalem, which has happened
over the centuries (Jer 31.38-40). It is just because the prophets looking 
forward didn't only see one event, they could see a series of events happening
which they put together in one oracle.

Jesus' use of Isaiah 61.1-2 is a better example of double fulfillment,
where he breaks off after "proclaim the acceptable year of the 
Lord" (Luke 4.18-19) rather than include the following verse about the 
day of judgement.

>A frustratingly simplistic ploy is the
>"literal except when I want it to be figurative" maneuver.  

Well I agree. The approach should be consistant. It is notable that 
there are disagreements between all schools of thought as to the exact
interpretation - amillenialism has been criticised for lacking ground rules
for interpretation (if things can be interpreted spiritually then who decides 
what the interpretation should be?) - I think that where literalists
have gone against their own rules this should be pointed out.
(For me this is humbling - and I would hold that love should abide
and not dogmatism)

I give some ground rules that should be followed (courtesy of Dake)
regarding the understanding of prophecy.
1. Understand prophecy as history writtem beforehand.
2. Give the same meaning to words of prophecy as you do to the words of
history.
3. Do not seek hidden meanings.
4. Do not think prophecy must be fulfilled before it can be understood.
5. Do not interpret God's own interpretation of anything in prophecy.
6. Take all prophecy literally unless it is clear that it cannot have
a literal meaning. Then get the literal truth conveyed by the
figurative language.
7. Let the Bible be its own interpretor.

>
>I hope you can see why I put no stock in the double-fulfillment theory.

The problem I have when I read Scripture is that certain events do 
NOT seem to have come to pass. Ezekiel's Temple with all its
measurements (Ezek 40-48) is a good instance, after all when
God gave measurements for the ark Noah built it, instructions
for the tabernacle Moses built it - why not the Temple also ?

In Daniel we have a number of yet future events: the
prophecies listed below as follows -

DANIEL				INTERPRETATION		FUTURE
2.31	Neb's forgotten dream	2.36			2.44-5
4.10	Neb's frightening dream 4.19			 -
5.5,25	Handwriting on wall	5.26			 -
7.2-14	4 beasts		7.16ff 			7.20-27
8	Ram & He-goat		8.16ff			8.23ff
9.24-27 Seventy weeks		 -			9.27
10	Vision of last days	11.2 			11.36ff

>I hope that
>you will see the futility of the futurist approach in light of the perfect
>fit of the historical events of the first century.  

I would like answers to the following 2 specific questions:

1. In Rev 17.11-12 we read of 10 kings who have not yet
received royal power. Who are they ?

2. How do the judgement patterns fit into the first century?

Barney Resson
"Many shall run to and fro, & knowledge shall increase" (Daniel)