From: darius@starbird.WPI.EDU (Christopher J Scanlon)
Subject: Re: Hack'n'slash not for me
Summary: Some damn good stuff here :)
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:37:07 GMT

In article <!2-nx+.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>Boy, this is funny, really.  Who would think that the following
>scenerio could possible be boring:
> Wait for a monster in its usual spot.
> Kill the monster.
> Gets its stuff.
> Go sell its stuff.
> Wait for monster...
>
Hrmmm... well, if you want to play an LPmud like that, you can, but...
What's the point?  I mean, there's also another 35 people on the mud so
sitting around is a waste of time.  Get out and meet people, usually there
are about 10 who are like "level, money, xp, gold, etc;" but there's a lot
who will just sit down and talk about stuff ranging from the new monster in
whoeverthehell's area to current world events.

>sheesh.  youd think the guys who write these muds know nothing
>about game design, balance, and implementation.  And they
>dont.  Most seem to get their ideas from neat coding ideas
>and other muds..  There is so little originality and depth
>in muds, that when it pops up, its amazing.
>
Never stereotype.  There's a few out there that are amazing, and most that
i've grown to love have had nothing to do with the writers of the muds
rather than the people who played them.

>Ive been playing roleplaying games, as player and master, for
>many years, and have found that only a small percentage
>know what the hell they are doing.  Only a tenth of the
>games do things click and as master or player the participants
>begin to work together, and weave a tale worth telling.
>
True, hack and slash, gain levels, get gold... *snore*  Areas on muds, like
campaigns in role playing are REAL good when there's continuity either in
the areas, or at least in some wizards areas.

>I love laughing at idiots who start talking about +5 swords,
>all these high levels, and powerful monsters or gods they
>killed.  Its a joke.  The best games I have ever been in
>were as 1st level, in over my head, and running like hell
>from the authorities/guild/monsters.  And my friends were
>in exactly the same spot.
>
Yep, ever try Valhalla?  fighting in a room with 4 other newbies to get
stuff, helping each other out because you had to?  Mudding at it's best.
(Ok, I feel enough pity for newbies, and most people on Val did that they
would help them out, but back when I first played the mud this is what
happened, had 5 newbies fighting for our lives, and not really knowing if we
(the party) had a causulity or if the monsters did with the battle's scroll.)

>Fact is, even the quests are the same in muds.  They just regenerate,
>and all they are are is guessing games or special monsters
>or rooms or stuff.  No life, no depth.
>
This *CAN* be changed, the easiest way I could think of it is to do it
manually every few days or every time you see a few mortals completing
the quest, which was what I planned on doing with one of my areas.

>When I played, and the bunch of us players finally, after all
>that mess and damn near dead ourselves, killed that evil priest
>who had been tormenting the city..  he was *dead*.  The city
>was different.
>
Takes some nifty code to do that, but there's a village I made that changes
upon the death of a main character [ok.. so he does come back, but I could
just move some code and make it permanent.]

>And you know, all this shallow work is pretty predictable.  Hell,
>most of the mud designers think that adding a few new races or
>guilds will make it more interesting, when the ad&d ideas were
>never really meant for text adventure in the first place..  of
>course things are gonna be simple and fake..  of course things
>never change.
>
Put in a "for the most part" in there, and I'll have to agree with you.
And if it wasn't for Genocide, I could think that the "of course things 
never change." line might be universal, but since you're fighting
other humans it's ALWAYS different, even with the same stuff.

>As a master and player, we worked with the world, it changed,
>and we changed along with it.  Muds dont have that..  the
>worlds are fixed, and you folks just wander in and see the
>sights and leave.  You dont even get to keep that broadsword
>when you go to sleep for gods sake.  Every day you have to 
>sneak to the those damn generation areas to get new equipment
>and money..  over and over.  beat the same monsters.
>
Well, that's what makes a LP a LPmud and not a Dikumud.  Struggle to start
off (or have friends in high places).  But the world being fixed?  That has
to be the biggest joke I've ever heard.  Give a mud great wizards, and
the mud is NEVER fixed, it is always expanding as the wizards continue
unless diskspace becomes a problem [The one limit which if fixed, is how
much you can throw down.]

>And even if the monsters are different, they are still the
>same, they still generate, you still have to sell their stuff,
>you have to worry about alignment, and everything is just
>numbers.
Oh... there are some wizards who would give you a nice SHOCK if you
believed that on their mud.  Trying being a Guardian or Slayer on Valhalla
and saying that, or try walking through one of the Goddesses areas on
Demon World with that attitude, certain monsters will chew you up before
you know what's happening.

>
>And yes, I do have solutions to these problems.  Not that
>I have any machine to run a mud on.
>
A few people have these solutions too, it's a matter of if they're not lazy
enough to impliment them.

>What I find so funny here is that you make the people who
>sit for hours figuring out the silly quests, and beating
>monster after monster the ones to build the damn things.
>So why would you expect anything but repetition?
>
Because you have fresh ideas?  What would you like to see on a mud?  Find
someone who can teach you how to do it.  (Disclaimer, I'm still learning
about the MudOS system and I'm mainly a 2.4.5 coder, but go to a god, or
someone who's area you thought was REALLY incredible if you can and talk
to them, if people did this, you'd see a lot less of the hack and slash
repetition but people starting to code some puzzles, and brainbuster
quests.

>I know of only one mud that even tries to do its own thing.
>And I dont mean stupid story ideas.  I mean a whole depth,
>game rules, environment, etiquette, and world..  but even
>that has limitations.
>
Unfortunately those limiations are usually diskspace. :(

>cummon folks.  go pick up a copy of ShadowRun or RuneQuest
>or Gurps, and play it.  Find out how the story works, and
>how the players work with it.   Work out ways to work together,
>to make the story more interesting.  Make the goal to be
>a bigger part of the world, instead of levels and experience.
>(my story teller Gilthe in DragonGate was more known and loved
>than characters with 3 times my levels and money, and all I did
>was sit and tell stories about the world).
>
Gee, and Cynosure still has to give me a rundown of the RuneQuest system so
I can start working on getting LPmud out of AD&D and into that kind of
system.  (Or I have to store away enough money to start picking up manuals)
But you're right, a lot of muds stick to D&D because it's the most popular
system right now, but different muds on a CyberPunk, ShadowRun, or RuneQuest
system may pop up, since i've heard all three discussed just at my college
alone.

>
>.....jeff

Wouldn't it be nice if.... 
These are the questions which unique muds are made of.  And probably the
best questions to go down in this newsgroup.

Christopher Scanlon : darius@wpi.wpi.edu : Darius @ Aegolous Acadicus
Daroki @ Paradox, Valhalla, Ancient Anguish, PhoenixMUD, and Demon World