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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:16:39 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: women priests

Eric- I find that your last post regarding women priests to be a little hard to
take.  This post strikes me as being one of the homophobic I have read
anywhere. Why are you so afraid of the possibility of women as priests? Can't
we drop the whole subject- I, for one, am tired of the attitudes being
expressed by you and a few others toward women in the church.
Nancy
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:03:44 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              mysticism" (Sep 28,  3:43am)

Joe, you probably are right.  It is NOT a very good RC definition of
revelation.  But since he is an Episcopalian teaching in an Episcopal
Seminary, it probably does not matter too much.  And our local Bishop
thinks the definition is just great, since he was a student of
Thormas.

Shalom,                              Len Howard
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:27:56 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: RCIA Update

On Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:09:23 HST (Len Howard) said:
>Len, Hang in there, my brother.  The parable of the rich man and
>Lazarus is not one of the easiest to interpret or understand...
>     Since he wore the purple, the rich man was either a Roman or a
>Jewish high priest.  He was not a bad man, as he did not drive Lazarus
>away from his front door, so his sin is that of indifference, which is
>actually the opposite of love...
>     I see the meaning of the story as Jesus telling the Jews what was
>going to happen if they did not listen to the word of God, given by
>the Prophets and he himself...

The Holy Father uses this parable frequently when talking about the
separation between the First World and Third World nations. It is a
difficult parable for those of us in the United States to reflect on,
because we are the Rich Man.

Read the parable carefully. Note that Jesus does not say that the Rich
Man has committed any great sin. He is seemingly condemned simply because
he lived in luxury, wearing fine linens and faring sumptuously every day,
while Lazarus lies at his door, hungry and sick.

The parallels are obvious. We live comfortably while people at our
doorstep in Mexico and Central American live in poverty. While we grow
fat, people at other places in the world die of starvation and would
"desire to be fed from the crumbs which fall from our table."

We can be nice people, and avoid serious sin. We can go to church
frequently, and even kneel, but our wealth will condemn us. To quote
Thomas Jefferson, in words chiseled into the Jefferson Memorial, "I
tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: RE: Turning the Other Cheek
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 22:30:42 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, writes:

> Liz Moreau (EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU) writes:
>
> >I know what the Bible says about turning the other cheek.  It is hard
> >enough for adults to do, but I was wondering about the parents out
> >there.  How do you instruct your children?
> >
> >We know that school grounds aren't like they used to be.  If you child
> >is being taunted, do you tell him to walk away?  Does this set up the
> >child for more taunting?  How does everyone handle these things?
>
> This is a great topic of discussion, Liz!
>
> Last week, my 15 year-old daughter came home from school and told us how her
> social studies class laughed at her.  The teacher had been talking about Sadd
> Hussein and that she felt that the U.S. hadn't gone far enough in the Gulf wa
> One of the students said we should have assassinated Hussein.  The teacher sa
> that might have been a good idea, but my daughter said no.  When asked why no
> she said, it was immoral.  The class broke out in laughter.  The teacher, aft
> a while, told the class to settle down, but never said my daughter was right.
>

Brian, you're assuming that the teacher did indeed think that the idea was
immoral.  I used to teach high school, and believe me, there are a lot of
teachers out there who don't fit the liberal academic image.  There are also
teachers who would be afraid of backing your daughter for fear of losing
popularity with the class.  Then, this teacher could just be one of the ones
who doesn't care.

This may sound cynical, but I've seen examples of all three.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:13:37 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Real Presence

> It is characteristic of Anglicanism to affirm the real
> presence of Christ in the eucharist while avoiding any official
> declaration of some particular metaphysical interpretation of this
> presence.

Nicely put, and the reason I find arguments about trans- vs.
consubstantiation to be somewhat beside the point :).

>      And my thanks to Amanda for initiating this cognitive process in
> me.  I rarely spend so much time on a post, but feel this gets
> at the core of Anglican doctrine, and needed to be presented.

Many thanks in turn for such a cogent elaboration...


Peace,

Amanda Walker
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      RE: Authority on the Church...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:23:30 GMT

In article <921006094821.2880292b@beast.cs.hh.ab.com> URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>So, Cardinal Mahoney may listen and respond to our questions on this
>listserve, maybe my excommunication papers will arrive afterall:-)
>
>Anybody know anything about his views, my assumption would be that if he
>was appointed to Cardinal, he must have "played the game" rather well and
>his views would be rather conservative to allign himself with Rome.
>No offense:-) but I can look up Church Dogma in a library, I'd rather
>hear what Kim Callis feels about Church.
>
>Now, where did I put that picture of Cardinal Mahoney? Here it is.
>(rip-rip, rip-rip, tear...)
>Hey, I heard you can get people to pray for you this way:-) -J.J.
>(Note: If you find this offensive, I apologize)

   This is just gratuitous disrespect for a man who has been called by
God to be an overseer of your Christian brothers and sisters, and
about whom you admittedly know nothing else.  It's even more saddening
coming from someone who professes himself to be a Catholic.  I don't
take any offense for myself, but for me it just destroys what little
credibility you had left regarding the various Church matters that
have been discussed here.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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From: wowoc@acs.ucalgary.ca (Witold Owoc)
Subject: Re: altar girls
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 19:19:56 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, AB, Canada

Nancy M. Piatkowski <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:
>but right now my pastor and myself (as a member of the parish council)
>have more to worry about than are we defying some document from Rome as
>we try to figure out how to pay our bills, teach our children, feed the
>hungry, comfort the sick and dying, bury the dead and still have the
>energy to celebrate a joyful liturgy of Word and Eucharist for a parish
>of 3200 families- with at this point two priests.

>We are also attempting to prepare the parish for lay leadership of
>prayer and communion services without a priest because the day is
>coming when our diocese will not have enough ordained male celibates
>to staff all the parishes and the people need to be prepared

What about including in your program "encouraging vocations" ?
It seems that in a such situation it should be a number one priority ? !

Witold Owoc <wowoc@acs.ucalgary.ca>

#disclaimer "my.private.views"
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 09:41:29 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      pantheism vs panentheism

Gordon raised the question of God's omnipresence in all of creation being
pantheism-   My understanding is that is we consider creation or any part of it
as God it is pantheism but seeing the presence of God in all of creation is
panentheism.  Example- the tree is God vs the glory of the tree in autumnal
color is a reflection of the glory of God. I don't think
that saying we are in God and God is in all is saying we are God.
Nancy
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From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Fatima
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:25:25 GMT

URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

>Well, Rebecca, I guess I'm just the proverbial "doubting Thomas".
>Does anybody know what that "miracle of the sun" was that supposedly
>everybody witnessed? Or was that a typo for 'Son'?

	This is from the movie version :-) but, I believe Mary was appearing
to 1-3 girls and talking to them.  The local church told them to be quiet,
but word got out and people came.  One day the girls were waiting for Mary
to appear (only they could see her).  A huge crowd was there along with
several higher church officials.  The officials were telling everyone to
go home and they were very upset with the girls and were preparing to
punish them.  

	Mary then arrived and the "miracle of the sun" occured.  The sun
started growing larger and larger, until it filled up the whole sky.  How-
ever, despite initial screaming and panic, the temperature did not rise.
(The movie had angelic music playing but that probably didn't happen :-) )
The sun then returned to its original position and a huge church has been
built on the site.

>For me, that other prediction of Oct 28th would have made more sense if
>it had been Nov 3rd (Election Day here in the States:-) - J.J.

He He He
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:47:14 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Greeley
              30 Sep 1992 03:16:31 GMT from <kschudt@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

On Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:16:31 GMT (Karl C Schudt) said:
>                    I don't want to start a political flamewar here,
>but I would like to know if anyone knows how Greeley reconciles voting
>for pro-abortion candidates. Specifically, Clinton has said that he would
>sign the "Freedom of Choice" Act...

Well, not to continue a political flamewar, but don't you think all
political decisions are ones of trade-offs? Yes, Clinton is pro-abortion
but Mr. Bush had his army bulldoze thousands of Iraqi conscripts in their
trenches, and his air force killed thousands of fleeing troops on the
horrifying "Highway of Death". Those "smart bombs" seemed to kill an
awful lot of civilans in Bagdad who died for our unrestricted access to
someone else's oil. He has refused to halt nuclear testing, and supports
the butchers in China (going as far as to veto a bill yesterday which
would remove the "favored nation" status China enjoys if their human
rights record doesn't improve). Both of the candidates support the death
penalty.

I've thought about this question a lot: Can Christians be counted on to
govern a country? My answer is "no". Our mandate to turn the other cheek,
for example, would put a lot of people at risk. Our religion teaches us
to aborb the anger; but there are people would would be counting on us to
strike back. Could a genuine Christian (one who takes the gospels
seriously) actually start or perpetuate a nuclear war? Given that even a
retaliatory strike could result in the death of millions of innocent
civilans, I doubt it.

Consequently, I think we have to hire people like Clinton and Bush to run
our country for us. We do so KNOWING that they do not share our gospel
values. The best we can do is to pick the one who will, in our individual
opinions, show the most care for the helpless and the vulnerable... both
unborn and born.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:22:07 EDT
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From:         catholic@DRAGON.COM
Subject:      October 2 - Feast of the Guardian Angels

Tomorrow is the Feast of the Guardian Angels.  Sometimes we forget the
beautiful place the angels hold in God's plan for our salvation.  Let's
remember them on this day as we ask them to pray with us in praise and
thanksgiving to the Lord Jesus.

		St. Gertrude's Guardian Angel Prayer

	O most holy angel of God, appointed by God to be my
	guardian, I give you thanks for all the benefits which
	you have ever bestowed on me in body and in soul.  I
	praise and glorify you that you condescended to assist
	me with such patient fidelity, and to defend me against
	all the assaults of my enemies.  Blessed be the hour in
	which you were assigned me for my guardian, my defender
	and my patron.  In acknowledgment and return for all
	your loving ministries to me, I offer you the infinitely
	precious and noble heart of Jesus, and firmly purpose to
	obey you henceforth, and most faithfully to serve my God.
	Amen.

Jane Wallace Mayo
mayo@cs.utk.edu
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From: jkythe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jay K. Kythe)
Subject: Re: Women are unclean
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:28:34 GMT



Is the desire for women to become priests simply a desire for power or
truly a desire to become saints?  Doesn't Jesus call all of us to
become saints, despite the vocation?  I'd even challenge present
priests, or rather seminarians, what their true goal is: to become
powerful or to become saints.  Look at St. Catherine of Siena or St.
Teresa of Avila.  They didn't want to become altar servers or priests.
They wanted to sanctify themselves before the Lord in the context of
the Church they loved.

Jay Kythe (jkythe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu)
-- 

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

	 Jay K. Kythe                  (jkythe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu)
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:23:35 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: mysticism
              29,  4:07pm)

And his full address is ifubar@snafu.u  as far as I can tell.  Agree
totally with your interpretation.
Shalom,                              Len
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:46:37 EDT
From:         "Patrick S. Golden" <pgolden@NHGS.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Jokes

Not really a joke, but...

While I was growing up, hot on the heels of Vatican II, my
father used to frequently make the remark that "The Pope is
praying for an early death."  When questioned why he would
respond, "Because he wants to die a Catholic."

For whatever it's worth, both my dad and I were Jesuit educated
too!
--
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             |
|Virginia Space Grant Consortium|
|Hampton, VA  23666             |
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       |
|-------------------------------|
--
From: MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET (Marty Helgesen)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Obedience
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:02:57 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center


I checked with my pastor.  As has been stated previously, a diocesan
priest does not take a vow of obedience.  However, when he is or-
dained he promises to obey and reverence his bishop.

Obedience is not expected only of those who takes vows or make prom-
ises.  When St. Paul's travels brought him to the port city of Mile-
tus he sent for the clergy of the nearby city of Ephesus.  In his
address to them he said, "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole
flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the
Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts
20:28)  The bishops are to rule, and we are to obey.   "Obey your
prelates and be subject to them.  For they watch as being to render
an account of your souls:  that they my do this with joy and not with
grief."  (Hebrews 13:17)

Marty Helgesen
From: CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
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Subject: Re: fasting
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:39:38 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia Campus Computing, 314-882-2000
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              5 Oct 1992 18:08:29 LCL from
              <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>

On Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:08:29 LCL The Banshee said:
>(From the banshee   )
>
>Dear all,
>Yes it's me again.
>Does anyone out there fast on a regular basis?
>If so can you advise on how best to go about it as I find
>it hard.  Thank you in advance.

I don't know anyone who doesn't think fasting is hard. But then, its
an exercise in denial that perhaps would be of little value if it
were easy.

If you wish to begin fasting, the "ideal" is every Wednesday and
Friday ( per Medjugorje and others) on bread and water.
However, many people find it helpful to build up slowly to a strict
fast such as this. For example, only one "regular" meal, and two
of bread and water. Or you may fast from sugar if you have a sweet
tooth, or from whatever you really enjoy that is a true sacrifice.

The most important thing is to pray for strength. It is very hard to
fast "on your own". About a month ago I was musing that it would be
wonderful if *everyone* would fast twice weekly, as it really didn't
seem too difficult. Since that time it has been extremely difficult
for me to fast, so much so that I'm now only attempting once per
week. The lesson in this was that while my thoughts were well-meaning
and innocent, the implication was that *I* was the one strong enough
to fast. So God left me to do it on my own, and its terribly difficult,
after having fasted for many many months with little problem and
much joy. ( He does that kinda thing to me, makes sure I stay REAL
humble. I can't do ANYTHING without Him) O:)

In the evening I like to read and pray a great deal. It helps me to
finish the day of fasting, remind me what it is for, and there seems
to often be a very special union. God loves us so much, and He
appreciates whatever little thing we do for Him.

Don't "beat on yourself" if you fail, just pray for strength and try
again. Satan will tell you things like "it doesn't matter", "You can't
do this", "It doesn't make any difference", "You failed, you'll never
succeed, so why try", etc. Don't listen to those things if they pass
through your mind. Every sacrifice and prayer, no matter how small,
matters when it comes from the heart.

Don't fast unless you do it out of love and accept it joyfully. If
the heart isn't in it, its of no value.

God bless you!
Elizabeth
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Lay leadership of communion services
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:36:39 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:

> >This is an interesting concept. Our parish has recently gone down to one
> >priest, however we do have a parishioner who is a deacon. Is there any
> >chance that the bishop could delegate his authority to a deacon to celebrate
> >the Mass. I suppose there is some rule about transubstantiation only occurri
> >with a priest or higher, but can this be modified or waivered under special
> >circumstances? Or am I blaspheming again:-) - J.J.
>
>    It is not possible for a deacon to confect the Eucharist, because
> he does not have the power to do so.  Not even the Pope can give a
> deacon such permission, because it's not a matter of permission, but
> rather one of what is possible.  Such a deacon could be ordained a
> priest if he is not married.  If he is married, then it would take a
> dispensation from celibacy, which is not currently (i.e. this
> millenium) given in such a case.

Well, there are only 9 years left to this millenium :-).  And, given the
decline in vocations we're experiencing, something extraordinary will have to
happen if the flock is to be tended.  Perhaps that means ordaining permanent
deacons who are widowers, for example.

>
>    Perhaps a better way to "be prepared" is to encourage those who may
> have, and pray for an increase in, vocations.
>

Agreed.  I also pray that the princes of the Church will open the road to a
priestly vocation to a wider segment of the population.




>Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us<
>Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087<
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:36:21 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Deacons

Len Howard (tas@pegasus.com) writes:

>I have been hesitating making any reply, waiting for a Roman Catholic
>response.  I cannot help you with that program, but can tell you about
>the Episopal program.

Of course, Len left out one thing... the bishop can throw out just about any of
the presented requirements s/he chooses.  For example, my wife, who is an
Episcopal deacon, is on our diocese's Commission on Ministry Within the Church,
the diocese-level group that oversees the ordinational programs.  There have
been a few applicants that the commission has wished to reject but whom the
bishop has allowed in th program anyway.  Moreover, there are several candidates
who have had their year-long candidacy term shortened to six months, at the
bishop's behest.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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