Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:53:12 EST
From:         "Michael H. Bloom" <MHB@MITVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      The deluge part 2: gurls in bands

From:         Dave <USTS060@RUST1.DPO.UAB.EDU>

>     Why is it that even today female bands do not receive the same
> level of interest as male bands?  Essentially what is the sexism of
> the music industry and why is it so prevalent?  Female singers, i.e.
> Shitney Houston (oops, that's Whitney), Madolla, and Sinead are seen
> as okay.  Bands with female lead singers are accepted, many times
> she's even allowed to play bass.  But bands which consist solely of
> women, do not recieve nearly as much recognition.  The same can even
> be said for this list.  How many times have we discussed the merits
> of an all-women band?

The female bass player tradition is relatively recent; we have Talking Heads
and Tina Weymouth to thank (although Sara Lee, who's played with Gang of Four
and League of Gentlemen among others, has her fans, myself not included). Bass
is still a supporting-- dare I say nurturing?-- instrument. There are a couple
of stories about Weymouth, one (from one of the large format Talking Heads bio
books) that when they first met Lou Reed, they told him they had a female bass
player, figuring he'd be into it (since the Velvet Underground had had a woman
playing drums). He shocked them all by saying something like "Yeah, it's great
to have a chick in the band, you can make her do whatever you want, unlike a
typical bass player!" :-(

More recently, Tina and Chris's son was of age to start playing an instrument,
and they asked him what he was interested in. So they asked him if he'd like a
bass guitar, and he is alleged to have answered, "Nah, bass is for girls!" :-)

>     Why is this so?  Are there fewer female bands?  If so why?  Is
> there a general lack of interest?  Or is it that they are just not as
> encouraged as males are.  (I know that's weird, musicians rarely
> receive any early encouragement, but do women receive even less?)  I
> feel like I'm witnessing something akin to the Elizebethan attitude
> toward actors -- Women are not allowed.  If they are then they must
> be harlots.  Why else would they live on the road and parade
> themselves on stage before a public?
>     I'd really like some discourse on this.

Can you say "double standard?" Thought you could.

Actually, typical of the "encouragement" (male) musicians receive is the
time-honored benediction "Don't give up your day job!" We as a society still
haven't grasped the full ramifications of working women, never mind that it's
a practical necessity for well over half of the households in America :-(

From:         David Malbuff <SPGDAM@UCCVMA.BITNET>

> First of all, I don't believe the music industry is sexist. The people who

I believe it is. The casting couch is just as prevalent in our branch of the
entertainment industry as in the movies. And notice how many women in rock--
even putatively strong ones-- have men attached to them: consider Pat Benatar
and Neil, uh, whatzisname, Geraldo? Or Suzi Quatro, whose music was entirely
dictated by Chapman & Chinn, pop Svengalis even Sweet didn't wanna deal with
any more. The Svengali paradigm is in fact real prevalent.

> own the record companies and radio stations could care less who makes the
> music, so long as they make a profit. If there were hordes of all-female
> groups out there with commercial potential, they'd be signed and in the
> studios right now. The only prejudice in the biz is against those who
> don't sell.

I don't think this is true either. The industry doesn't like to admit to
themselves what whores they are, so they blow a lot of smoke about musical
quality whenever they have the chance (consider the Columbia exec numbly
reading the teleprompter at the Dylan tribute). They despised heavy metal
for decades until it became painfully obvious that it still outsold their
new wave or fusion pets eight ways from Wednesday.

> There have been a few all-female bands that have been signed to major labels.
> Many of us can remember the Go-Gos and the Bangles (even if we'd rather not).
> I can assure you that if those bands had continued to make commercially
> successful music, there would have been more such bands.

Correct; see below.

> Right now, the prejudice is against bands, period. The industry is
> biased in favor of solo acts playing dance music. Rock and roll bands are

Always has been-- which is stupid, because I think a good, tight band is the
essence of rock'n'roll. But the execs in their wisdom would rather have stars
they can manipulate in cults of personality. Clive Davis pried Janis Joplin
out of Big Brother-- and it made her music more professional but more generic,
and I would argue that it killed her. Note how many of the Bangles, the Go-Gos,
and the Runaways launched solo careers-- of course not all were successful, but
that's part of the major label philosophy too, inundate the marketplace with
interchangeable commodities and see which ones the consumer will swallow...

> "out" (excepting metal). One reason R.E.M.'s _Out Of Time_ album was so
> phenomenally successful, I believe, is because it had been so long since a
> rock & roll band with a conventional lineup had even charted. But that
> commercial success was a fluke, at least by industry standards. The trend is

Without getting into how much I despise REM, let me say that consumers don't
like being dictated to any more than anybody else, and the whole "alternative"
concept that REM gets marketed as is a kind of reverse psychology that makes
the consumer feel autonomous (without actually giving him any real choices).

> away from bands, and toward solo performers whose music is made by
> semi-anonymous musical conglomerations. Or can anyone here name the members
> of C&C Music Factory?

That's not even a solo performer, that's the sound of a data center getting
down. The trend you're talking about, rewarding choreographers by giving them
their own shot at the brass ring, is totally despicable, and doesn't belong in
a musical discussion :-)

Remember Toni Basil? Robert Christgau called her (correctly) "the only woman
to offer to take it up the ass on top 40 radio."

> The best all-female band I ever heard was the Slits. They weren't technically
> impressive, but so what. They were still great. Of course, that was 15 years
> ago.

Right, and they were also thoroughly indie, if I recall correctly.

> hardly revolutionary. Artists in the past have overcome obstacles far steeper
> than anything you'll find in 20th-century America. If the music is good, it
> will, eventually, be heard. The mainstream may ignore it, but the mainstream
> won't silence it. If it's there, it will be heard.

No, I think this is hogwash too. See above re "alternative"-- they make you
think you're getting all the information there is by this choice of words,
and they still keep you from hearing anything really innovative-- if only by
drowning it out in a barrage of competing (but more generic) information.

This was one of the reasons for that whole Negativland _U2_ debacle, the
notion that the industry has grown powerful enough to prescribe the music
for an entire culture-- and then claim ownership of it at the same time!
It's like how you now have to stick a goddam (tm) in front of an "Uh huh!"
Our very language has been franchised :-(

From:         mjferzig@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU

> One reason is that in order to have an "all-girl" band, you need to find
> women who play all the instruments you need. Of the traditional rock band
> instruments, the only ones that women are encouraged to master from an
> early age are voice and piano. In our school systems, little girls are
> encouraged to learn the violin, the flute, the clarinet. Very few are
> encouraged to learn percussion or sax. Also, since guitar isn't usually
> taught in schools, since it isn't "part of the orchestra", kids who want to
> learn guitar have to do so on their own.

And this, I would contend, has a lot to do with why the guitar has been the
source of so much innovation in the last 30 years, since they've tamed the
saxophone after Ornette :-)

Parenthetically, I remember being impressed, and not a little intimidated,
by a girl who played trumpet in the 5th grade...

>              ... Piano is often forced on girls at an early age, so many
> little girls hate it before they ever have the chance to love it. As for
> voice, it's been the subject of multiple studies that women are more
> naturally inclined to be "able to sing". Any high school chorus director
> knows that! Women are taught very early on that unless you're incredible or
> extremely unusual in some way, that female singers are a dime-a-dozen, and
> that women singers shouldn't try to make it their career. So I think a lot
> of it is societal. But If any of you women out there wanna jam with a
> mediocre singer...I'm available...

There's a lot of actual folk precedent for things like the Voix Bulgares--
the actual Bulgarian traditions not least. Marsha, I should have told you
before about a group around here called Libana, a women's music group that
researches a lot of these traditions, and sings a lot of a capella (although
certainly not exclusively-- they play a number of instruments, both folk and
conventional Western stuff like clarinets. Among the things I've heard them
sing are "waulking" songs, rhythmic tunes sung by a group of women treading
on a bolt of felt; similarly, they do a good herring-cleaning song :-) Lots
of these work songs, from cultures all over the world. Among menfolk, the
parallels include sea chanteys and cotton-picking spirituals, but it doesn't
seem like the collective work group sing is as prevalent with Y chromosomes.

From:         Mike <MASUDA@SJSUVM1.BITNET>

> True, but it shouldn't stop women from jamming on these instruments!
> I think it would be refreshing to hear a voice, piano, violin and
> flute ensemble doing a new thang with what they got.  Heck, it may
> even start a new genre of women's music.  A liitle jazz influence,
> a little bit of folk-rock, and you got a cool hybrid!

Gag me with a genre. I don't think I've heard anything interesting out of the
bin labeled "womyn's music" yet. I had high hopes for a tape by a flute player
who'd just come back from the Amazon rainforest with a pack full of location
recordings, which she then took into the studio and played along with while
her chakras were still energized by the trip-- it was twaddle, and even the
source tapes were markedly inferior to, for example, the Ryko series.

From:         crispen <crispen@EFFTOO.BOEING.COM>

> Sorry, Marsha, I intended to reply yesterday.  One cure for the
> feminine instrument syndrome is female band directors.

Carla Bley was my dream date for years. (But I'm not gonna attempt to compete
with Steve Swallow-- besides, her new music sucks.) Curiously, she doesn't hire
many women-- other than the violinist on _Tropic Appetites_, I can only think
of singers-- and "personalities," like Viva on _Escalator Over the Hill_.

Toshio Akiyoshi (sp?) is pretty decent too.

I find Robin Holcomb rather boring. woj will pillory me for this.

> Now, what I'd really like to know is why so many female rock bands
> break up.  Runaways, Heart, Bangles, and now I hear Babes In Toyland
> is about to break up.  I am praying that this trend doesn't stop until
> Wilson Phillips bites the dust, but that's probably too much to
> hope for.

See above.

> that can do all manner of evil Egyptian things and I'll forgive them.

Did you ever hear the parody version "Walk With an Erection," by Boston's
own Swinging Erudites? Crude but effective :-)

From:         MCINTYRE@MSUPA.BITNET

> Well, the Runaways were a manufactured band ala the Monkees, so the real
> wonder is how they stayed together as long as they did.

What else were they gonna do? Although I do think every one of them except
the drummer got to do a solo album afterward, setting a standard even the
Go-Gos couldn't quite match (3 out of 5).

> As for Heart, were they ever more than 40% female (two out of five band
> members?)  If Ann and Nancy Wilson are splitting up, hey, they're siblings.
> Precedents include the Everly Brothers and the Kinks who were known to
> indulge in physical violence on stage.

I remember back in those fabulous '60s, reading something to the effect that
the most successful integrated bands (i.e. across color lines) were the ones
where the blacks were in charge: the Jimi Hendrix Experience, of course, and
Love and Sly and the Family Stone were the ones mentioned. I'm not sure I buy
that theory, but it's interesting to speculate what the Byrds, say, might've
been like if McGuinn had hired a good gospel crooner :-) Anyway, if you do
think this is a plausible notion, then Heart should obviously stand as the
primo working example of the mixed-gender equivalent-- Ann Wilson calls all
the shots.

My favorite band, Henry Cow, was at one point 50/50: female singer (typical),
bass player (before the trend; she'd been a cellist first) and bassoonist;
male drummer, organist/clarinetist, and guitarist (my hero Fred Frith). The
band's last album, _Western Culture_, was half composed by the organist and
half by the bassoonist. They're all still working; the bassoonist, Lindsay
Cooper, came out with a peculiar political revue a couple years ago called
_Oh, Moscow!_ She performed it in Boston with another mixed-gender band:
male and female singers, male saxophonist and bass player, female pianist
and drummer (a woman named Marilyn Mazur, who was a monster-- although she
took just as dorky and self-indulgent a solo as a guy).

From:         mjferzig@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU

> Look hon, you know damn well i agree with you. I'd like nothing more than
> to see a music industry which wasn't run by people with marketing degrees.
> Then people would get exposed to all sorts of neat stuff and everyone would
> feel that they could make great music whether or not it was commercially
> useful.... I would love to hear the band you describe above - when they
> manage to get enough money together to make a record, please send me a
> copy....

Hear hear!

> P.S. Congratulate me - I've just completed my very first law school final!

Congratulations!

From:         jc-s <GE777009@BROWNVM.BITNET>

> All girl bands don't last for many reasons.
>
> one:  no one ever takes them seriously. not even other girls.

It is widely believed that girls don't relate to the same features of music
that boys do. One common notion is that girls are likelier to go for the sex
symbol appropriate to their orientation-- your Frank Sinatras, your Elvises,
your Paul McCartneys, your Chris Isaaks, your k.d. lang's :-) Barring that
last example, what is there about a girl group that should appeal to other
girls, by this theory? Being a boy myself, I don't have a clue what women
really think, except a prejudice to doubt the conventional wisdom :-)

> two:  too quickly exploited for the "sex pot" factor

Well, that's the entertainment industry for you. It's true, girl groups are
damned if they do and damned if they don't. I remember Fanny trying to make
it as a rock'n'roll band that just happened to be women, and the publicists
from Warner Bros. practically hanging a red light over them :-( Which is not
to say they were all that good a band...

> three:  bosoms get in the way of playing guitar

Yeah, women should emulate the ancient Amazons and cut off the breast on
their guitar-strummin' side.

> four: too catty, too much infighting between members over boys

Somehow this does not have the ring of truth.

> five: spending tour $$ on new clothes

Story I heard from a friend of Jon Landau (now Springsteen's manager): when
he produced the second MC5 album, the group took their huge recording advance
and blew it all on expensive cameras. Then they got arrested for apparently
trying to shoplift some guitars :-)

> six:  all they really want to do is get married and have babies

Well, that *was* what happened to: Grace Slick, Tina Weymouth, Pat Benatar...

Sisterhood is less powerful if Jenna's your sister, I think :-)

From:         Thumper <watson@HG.ULETH.CA>

> I'm not sure if there are any Joni Mitchell fans out here in Allmusicland or
> not... I'm hoping a couple of old farts may find this of minimal interest. :)

Now she's a great writer, although her taste in sidemen leaves something to
be desired...

> I picked up _Back to the Garden, A Tribute to Joni Mitchell_ which is a
> follow-up to Burce Cockburn's tribute _Kick at the Darkness_.  There are 17 up
> and coming Canadian artists but the stand-out interpretations come from Sara
> Craig's "This Flight Tonight" (made popular by Scotland's Nazareth), Hugh

One of the most uproariously inappropriate cover versions ever!

> Marsh's "River", Spirit of the West's "Coyote" and W.O.W.'s "Woodstock".  Sara
> Craig was joined by guitarist Kris Abbot of Pursuit of Happiness and Hugh
Marsh
> enlists the help of Rheostatic's Martin Tielli on vox.  Spirit of the West's
> version of "Coyote" is one of the best things I've heard from them in some
> time...  Other bands on this compilation include Universal Honey, Martha and
> the Muffins, and Big Faith.

I am much interested. I started to give up on Mitchell when she started using
those pasteurized process jazz food players on _Court and Spark_, and stopped
listening to her altogether because of how _Mingus_ sounded as apposed to real
Mingus. But I certainly owe her another listen after ten years... Her video
with Peter Gabriel was overly artsy, I thought.

> And... Bob Tee... have you picked up Northern Pikes latest, _Neptune_... word
> is that it's not bad, but it sounds more like 15 singles than an album.

Does this mean 15 real strong songs, or 15 cookie-cutter songs?

From:         crispen <crispen@EFFTOO.BOEING.COM>

> That's a real shocker!  At least Peter Tork and Mickey Dolenz didn't
> last as long as Lita Ford and Joan Jett did (or have I got *that*
> wrong, too).

Yup, you're wrong. Dolenz had a new album this year, a recording of bedtime
stories and songs called _Micky Dolenz Puts You to Sleep_. As Dave Barry
would say, I am not making this up.

> Paul Heroy <HEROY%LSUVM.BITNET@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> corrected me on
> my assumption that Heart broke up -- I just hadn't heard anything
> from them lately.

The Wilsons did some kinda semi-unplugged pickup band gig for charity
in Seattle recently-- saw it mentioned in Tower's _Pulse_ throwaway.

> Or possibly (this was allegedly on a greeting card I searched for
> unsuccessfully last year): Wreck the Malls with Cows on Harleys"

Yeah, I wanna see this too!