HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: Wednesday, 22 Jul 1992 08:17:35 EDT
From: James Justice <JAY@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: ESA 4.2 JES2 Routing Restriction

In article <IBM-MAIN%92072119203733@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>, Leonard D Woren
<LDW@USCMVSA.BITNET> says:
>
>IBM is really quite anal retentive regarding special characters in
>names.  I seem to recall a note somewhere (JCL manual?) mentioning
>that dsnames with dashes can't be protected with discrete RACF
>profiles.  And you've probably seen my ranting about arbitrary
>restrictions on MVS dsnames.  I believe that VM RACF doesn't allow
>userids with dashes.  As far as fixing JES2 to allow it, I suspect
>that it would be less work if you instead change the VM ids so they
>don't contain dashes.  Remember that many JES2 commands take ranges,
>which is indicated by xxx-yyy.  So the dash being special is deeply
>ingrained in JES2.

Yeah, right!  There are thousands of LISTSERV lists like our CANCER-L
list.  Each of these lists have hundreds and in some cases thousands of
people subscribed to them!  Many of these lists are cross posted into
the Usenet feeds.  To rename all of these lists is a giant task.  To get
the word to all of the subscribers and get their names files fixed and
etc is task I don't even want to think about.  (Each list is supported
via a VM userid of the same name!)

The simple fact is that it is time that IBM should stop and think about
changes that effect so many people.  It is fine to change things
to be less restrictive but the other direction must be done with care.
IBM has already said that the same naming restriction is true for VM.
They are not enforcing it yet!

As long as it is not enforced in VM, you can create mail with a userid
containing a dashed name and send it to a VM mailer who will redirect
to the right place.  I guess in the long run we will just have to build
a user friendly system on top of the IBM system and not let the IBM
code have any idea what is really going on in the world.  It seems a
shame that you have to run a *TRAIN* this way!

I sometimes dream of an IBM world in which NJE nodes and userids have
flexable naming conventions like in the TCP/IP world (not that it
doesn't have some problems).  Not likely!
Date: Tuesday, 28 Jul 1992 13:07:11 EDT
From: Jerry Bryan <BRYAN@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: Esoteric Device Message in ESA 4.2

Leonard's explanation is complete and accurate.  I thought I would
just add a bit of a historical note.

My best recollection is that there was a time when esoteric names
were cataloged "funny" even when the cataloging was DISP=(,CATLG)
from JCL.  Note that the "funny" cataloging applies equally to
tape and disk data sets, and lots of shops use esoteric tape names
to direct tape mounts to pools of tape drives.

I think the cataloging for JCL was fixed either in the last few
releases of MVT or in the first few releases of MVS.  In any case,
it was a long time ago.

Prior to the fix, most systems programmers were well aware of this
quirk.  Since the cataloging was "wrong" for esoteric names, even when
the cataloging was done from JCL, you could not help but have many
"incorrectly" cataloged data sets if you supported esoteric names at
all.  Furthermore, in this type of environment it was not reasonable
to declare user error and put the onus of fixing it back on the users.
It didn't have to be fixed unless you did a sysgen, but then fixing it
was critical.  By hook or by crook (or by handy dandy utility program
that you wrote at 3:00 in the morning), you had to recatalog a lot
of data sets.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:41:38 EST
From:         John Eiszner <IJWE400@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Starting VTAM on MVS

Thanks to all those who offered suggestions on starting VTAM on
MVS with an alternate start list.  The simplest solution seems
to be creating an alternate VTAM proc pointing to a separate
VTAMLST library, which has the desired start list in its member
ATCSTR00.  That's what I did and it works fine.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: IBM-MAIN@RICEVM1.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:44:33 -0400
From:         Doug Fraser <dfraser@MCMAIL.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: MVS Allocation Recovery

We do not have any mountable disk.  If it isn't there, it isn't there.
The operators handle the situation.  When this problem does occur, it is
almost always to do with the system pack (name change) or the database
people scrounging for free space and using old jcl.

Doug Fraser                         email: dfraser@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca
System Support Manager              phone: (416) 525-9140 ext 3868
Computing and Information Services  fax:   (416) 528-3773
McMaster University
Hamilton, Ontario
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:00:46 EDT
From:         Zoltan Forray <SSTSZXF@VCUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: "Multi-volume" SYSRES?

We too use the dual sysres process. And we have everything that is absolutely
required to be on the sysres, on the single density 3380 sysres with space
left over.

There are only so many datasets that *must* be on the volume you IPLed from.
Therefore, we trimmed down to the minimum with space left over. We put only
those SMP/E maintained d/s that are part of the core system, onto the
sysres/systst combination with SMP/E pointing to the SYSTST volume when
applying maintenance. Everything else is on other volumes we call "DL" volumes.

Also, if cataloging is a problem, you can use the VOLUMES('******') parameter
of the DEFINE NONVSAM process to always point to the sysres, no matter what you
call it.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 11:48:49 CDT
From:         Bobby Brake <SPTS001@UABDPO.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PROG476 (DFT buffer error)
              23 Jul 1992 12:06:55 EDT from <PWILKIN@TRAPPER.BGSU.EDU>

On Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:06:55 EDT Phil Wilkin said:
>                          ...
>          ...  A particularly "big" CICS transaction causes a PROG476 on
>the 2 PC 3270s but works on the 3179s.  (Other smaller CICS transactions
>work fine on both types of terminals.)  The explanation for PROG476 in
>the 3274 CU Desc and Prog's Guide says the DFT's buffer overflowed.
>
>I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS BUFFER PROBLEM.
>
>buffer sizes.  Can anyone tell me where I should be looking?  Thanks.

 Do you have MAXDATA=4096 in your NCP definition on the PCCU statement?
 Does your UNITSZ = your IOBUF size in your VTAM definition?  Is your
 MAXBFRU * UNITSZ - BFRPAD greater than or equal to 1296?

 I have found that when I use UNITSZ=384 with MAXBFRU=12 and BFRPAD=0 on
 the HOST statement in my NCP definition and set IOBUF=384 in VTAM, I have
 less problems.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:56:35 EDT
From: Peter M. Weiss <PMW1@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: Starting VTAM under MVS

In article <IBM-MAIN%92072910220382@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU>, John Eiszner
<IJWE400@INDYCMS.BITNET> says:

>Is there a way to specify an alternate start list (ATCSTRxx) in
>the VTAM PROC itself, in order to avoid using the rather clumsy syntax
>START VTAM,,,(LIST=xx) in the console start command?  I would
>like to set up separate VTAM procs for my test and production
>MVS environments.

>I tried EXEC PGM=ISTINM01,PARM='LIST=xx' but that didn't work.
>I've also looked through most of our VTAM documentation (_Innumerable
>_Bulky _Manuals!) but found nothing helpful.

John:

As I recall, there is no way BUT instead, create an extra VTAMLST
library or two, copy/edit in an appropriate ATCSTR00 list, create
your new NET Proc with liberal use of Symbolic Parameters.  Don't
forget any appropriate cataloging and acf2/RACF rules updates.
Backup liberally, say your prayers. then bounce VTAM.

/Pete
--
Peter M. Weiss                     | not affiliated with psuvm.psu.edu|psuvm
31 Shields Bldg -- Penn State Univ.| "Connectivity is more than a Connection"
University Park, PA USA 16802-1202 | E. Michael Staman, _The Circuit_, Apr 92
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: pgilmart@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Gilmartin)
Subject: Re: ESA 4.2 JES2 Routing Restriction
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 08:05:38 GMT


> As far as fixing JES2 to allow it, I suspect
> that it would be less work if you instead change the VM ids so they
> don't contain dashes.  Remember that many JES2 commands take ranges,

Can you say 'quotation marks'?  JCL is particularly "anal retentive" in
not allowing arbitrary quoted strings in all non-keyword contexts.  Cases
in point (if I remember):  Room number on JOB card; Forms id on DD
statement; User ID on DEST/ROUTE parameter.  

MVS should eschew chauvinism and not enforce syntactic restrictions on
values whose semantics are (potentially) realized on non-MVS hosts.

BTW, how can one meaningfully use a range of userids?  Is there some
operator command which takes all jobs are in the range of (e.g)
Gilmartin-Woren (oops. typo) as the userid and purges them?

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: <TOM@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:51:14 EST
From:         "Thomas D. Denier" <TOM@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      JES2 shutdown problem
Comments: To: IBM-MAIN%RICEVM1.BITNET@NOC2.DCCS.UPENN.EDU

We are a new MVS site, and are having problems shutting down JES2. We
are following the procedure IBM suggests in the JES2 command reference.
We issue a '$p' command, shut down started tasks, and issue a '$p jes2'
command. We do not get the '$HASP099 ALL AVAILABLE FUNCTIONS COMPLETE'
message when we finish shutting down the started tasks, and get message
'$HASP607 JES2 NOT DORMANT - SYSTEM DRAINING' if we try issue the '$p
jes2' command at that point. A '$d a,job' commands reports that there
are no batch jobs running. A '$d a,stc' reports that 'SYSLOG' and five
batch initiators are still running. We can get rid of the batch
initiators by issuing '$p i...' commands, but this does not allow the
shutdown to complete.

Our JES2 is Version 4 Release 2. We have five batch initiators. We have
a non-SNA NJE line connected to a VM system by a 3088. We have two SNA
RJE lines, which are really connections to JES/328X. We have both
LOGON(1) and LOGON(2) definitions, but only the second is actually
started. We have no channel-attached unit record equipment.

What are we doing wrong?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:15:13 EST
From:         SOMITCW@VCCSCENT.BITNET
Subject:      Zeroing out tapes

 On Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:53:00 EDT, JMQ@NCCIBM1 said:
>In October 1989, John Schulien <U21187@UICVM.BITNET> posted CMS source
>for a program to "zero out" a tape using the data security erase CCW.
>Does anyone have a version to share that runs under MVS/ESA?

    I modified DEBE from the CBT tape to have an 'ET' command.
 The 'ET' command uses the Data Security Erase CCW command.
 You're welcome to a copy if you like.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:17:00 PDT
From:         Leonard D Woren <LDW@USCMVSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ESA 4.2 JES2 Routing Restriction

IBM is really quite anal retentive regarding special characters in
names.  I seem to recall a note somewhere (JCL manual?) mentioning
that dsnames with dashes can't be protected with discrete RACF
profiles.  And you've probably seen my ranting about arbitrary
restrictions on MVS dsnames.  I believe that VM RACF doesn't allow
userids with dashes.  As far as fixing JES2 to allow it, I suspect
that it would be less work if you instead change the VM ids so they
don't contain dashes.  Remember that many JES2 commands take ranges,
which is indicated by xxx-yyy.  So the dash being special is deeply
ingrained in JES2.

/Leonard
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:53:00 EDT
From:         Jim Mollmann <JMQ@NCCIBM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Zeroing out tapes

In October 1989, John Schulien <U21187@UICVM.BITNET> posted CMS source
for a program to "zero out" a tape using the data security erase CCW.
Does anyone have a version to share that runs under MVS/ESA?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:32:00 PDT
From:         Leonard D Woren <LDW@USCMVSA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: JCL formatters/checkers/converters

If you have to make single changes to large numbers of JCL members
which are stored in a small number of PDSs, the REPLACE subcommand of
PDS can be convenient.  Since PDS is an interactive tool, it can only
do one change at a time, so multiple changes will read all the data
for each change, which is probably too inefficient for you.  If you
have installed MVS from CBIPO, you can use the IPOUPDTE program to do
the mass updates.   IBM supplies documentation for IPOUPDTE in the
RIM materials received with the CBIPO.  Of course, IPOUPDTE will
refuse to run on your libraries, complaining that they're not
eligible.  So, what to do?  I hope IBM doesn't get too upset at me for
spilling the beans on this one...  Add a $$$COIBM member to the
library to be updated, run IPOUPDTE, then (if you wish) delete the
member.  I have libraries containing a $$$COIBM with one record with
the text "Dummy member to fool IPOUPDTE".  Your mileage may vary, use
at your own risk, etc.

PDS 8.4 is available on the CBT tape.

/Leonard
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lawsch-l
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:12:30 -0700
From:         JCJANES@UCDAVIS.BITNET
Subject: Re: Enquiry reply

> Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:48:33 +0500
> From: "u911469@postoffice.utas.edu.au" <Carl.Moller@DIEMEN.UTAS.EDU.AU>
> Subject:      Enquiry
> To: Judy Janes <JCJANES@aggie.ucdavis.edu>
>
> Very sorry if this is incorrect procedure, but could someone, preferably
> the server administrator (if one exists) send me subscription instructions?
>
>
> Thanks, and sorry for any inconvenience.
>
> Carl Moller                            _--_|\
> u911469@postoffice.utas.edu.au        /      \
> University of Tasmania                \_.--._/
> Australia                                   * Tasmania - the Holiday Isle
>
> "I'm _not_ paranoid...you're just all against me!"
>

Carol,

        To subscribe to Law-lib send request to:

        LAW-LIB-REQ@ucdavis.edu

        Be sure to include your e-mail address, your name
        and the institution you are affiliated with.
Judy Janes
Law Library
University of California
Davis, CA  95616-5203
Phone  (916) 752-3328
INTERNET   jcjanes@ucdavis.edu
BITNET     jcjanes@ucdavis.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.lawsch-l
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:48:33 +0500
From:         "u911469@postoffice.utas.edu.au" <Carl.Moller@DIEMEN.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Enquiry

Very sorry if this is incorrect procedure, but could someone, preferably
the server administrator (if one exists) send me subscription instructions?


Thanks, and sorry for any inconvenience.

Carl Moller                            _--_|\
u911469@postoffice.utas.edu.au        /      \
University of Tasmania                \_.--._/
Australia                                   * Tasmania - the Holiday Isle

"I'm _not_ paranoid...you're just all against me!"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: (no subject given)
X-Envelope-to: ingrafx@PSUVM.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN"ingrafx@psuvm"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ingrafx
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:40:00 EST
From:         OBRAND%OPUS@MCOIARC.BITNET

Does anyone know of a shareware or free dos based or windows program that will
convert .tiff files to .bmp files?  I have windows 3.1 and I am finally getting
into some graphics at work and I would like to take some home to work on.  I
run a macintosh IIcx at work.  Also, are there any good shareware graphics
programs for ibm availble?  Or, does anyone recommend a specific graphic
program which is not shareware.

Thanks in advance,
                Owen Brand
obrand@opus.iarc.mco.edu
obrand@jcvaxa.jcu.edu
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ingrafx
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 11:50:24 CST
From:         Fred Detwiler <ST8330@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Graph Comprehension

Info.  request:  Does anyone have or know of theories about HOW
people process graphs (particularly, x-y relational graphs) in relation
to text (s) about them?
Fred Detwiler
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ingrafx
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:44:37 CDT
From:         James E Levin <JLEVIN@UMNHCS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Graph Comprehension

I would be interested if you could post a summary of
what you learn to the group, or to me by e-mail.
I have seen a few things about how quickly/efficiently/
accurately people interpret epidemiologic results
presented as text, charts, or icons.

-- Jim

---------------------------------------------------
James E. Levin, MD, PhD
Fellow, Health Informatics
University of Minnesota
Pediatric Infectious Diseases
UMHC Box 296, 420 Delaware St, SE
Minneapolis, MN  55455

Fax (612) 624-8927, or (612) 624-4102
E-Mail jlevin@umnhcs.bitnet
Internet jlevin@simvax.labmed.umn.edu
---------------------------------------------------
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ingrafx
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1992 08:43:00 CET
From:         "CRI/CD/OS; Rene de Bie" <CRISRB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>

>
> Does anyone know of a shareware or free dos based or windows program that will
> convert .tiff files to .bmp files?  I have windows 3.1 and I am finally gettin
> into some graphics at work and I would like to take some home to work on.  I
> run a macintosh IIcx at work.  Also, are there any good shareware graphics
> programs for ibm availble?  Or, does anyone recommend a specific graphic
> program which is not shareware.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>                 Owen Brand
> obrand@opus.iarc.mco.edu
> obrand@jcvaxa.jcu.edu

Hello, try:
wingif - gwswin - alchemy
all on ftp.cica.indiana.edu pub/pc/win3
Greetings,

Rene de Bie - CRI - University Leiden - Holland
Mail   :P.O.Box 9512 - 2300 RA Leiden - The Netherlands
Phone  :+31 71 277028/276921
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
P1-Message-Id: DE*DBP*TU-DRESDEN;dfnserv-tud1003920722112813-FLs
X400-Trace:   DE*DBP*TU-DRESDEN; arrival Wed,
              22 Jul 92 09:28+0000 action Relayed
X400-Trace:   de*dbp*gmd; arrival Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:41+0200 action Relayed
X400-Trace:   de*dbp*GMD; arrival Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:41+0200 action Relayed
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ingrafx
Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 05:43:40 -0400
From:         hoffmann@URZDFN.KARTOGRAPHIE.TU-DRESDEN.DBP.DE
Subject:      RE: AutoCarto & GIS & ISSDH

Of course, this are problems from the broad US scenario in this field.
It's my personal feeling that
- AC should be connected to tasks of cartomatics (auto-carto-system production)
- GIS should focus on geomatics (auto-geo-analysis and geosystem modelling)
- ISSDH should concentrate on spatial informatics (geo-spatial processing).
All these directions have their overlapping and special R&D directions where
the application field is determinated by generalized or specialized folks
(interdisciplinary or disciplinary)...
A good timing schedule from ICA, IGU and CGS? would be nice for making
coincidence with other regional conference events. That's the way of
cooperation but sometimes I got the feeling of competition between these
different event (with thematic overlapping or redundancy).

Frank Hoffmann, TUD (just now very busy with CAC lab training)... 11-30 CET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS (408)252-1005 Silicon Valley, Ca
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xtropy-l
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:03:00 PDT
              <XTROPY-L@UBVM.BITNET>
Comments:     Liberty!
From:         "Edgar W. Swank" <edgar@SPECTRX.SAIGON.COM>
Subject:      Where is extropians digest?
X-To:         "New Extropians-at-large" <XTROPY-L%UBVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I haven't received any copies of Hal's Extropians Digest (or anything
else) from XTROPY-L since

Hal's Extropians Digest      Fri, 19 Jun 1992       Volume 92 : Issue   0011

Hal, are you still there?  Is anyone there?

--
edgar@spectrx.saigon.com (Edgar W. Swank)
SPECTROX SYSTEMS +1.408.252.1005  Silicon Valley, Ca
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Envelope-to: xtropy-l@ubvm.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xtropy-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:35:14 EDT
              <XTROPY-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         "The Caterpillar Cannot Understand The Butterfly"
              <salsbury@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:      4 TRILLION DOLLARS!
X-To:         extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu, xtropy-l@ubvm.BITNET

We just kicked over the $4 Trillion mark on the national debt! WOOOOO!

Each person now owes $15,681, and the total is rising about $15,000/second.


Thank you, xdebt! :)

Pat

   Patrick G. Salsbury                    State University of NY @ Buffalo, USA
SALSBURY@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU                       Disclaimers are silly. ;^)

                          "All bound for Mu Mu Land!"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xtropy-l
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 10:05:48 PDT
Reply-To:     thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com
              <XTROPY-L@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         "Tony Hamilton - FES~" <thamilto@PCOCD2.INTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 4 TRILLION DOLLARS!
X-To:         XTROPY-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              Cannot Understand The Butterfly" at Jul 28, 92 12:35 pm

Actually, I've never bought that conclusion - that each of us somehow shares
part of that debt. There is no law (setting aside obvious common-sense
conclusions outside of the law) which requires that a country's citizens be
held accountable for the debts of its government. I see the government much as
a big company. Neither the employees nor the shareholders of a corporation are
responsible for financial distress in a company. Further, government does not
equal country. If, somehow, you were to convince me that the country is made
up of the individuals occupying it (as an objectivist, I do not believe in
such social constructs), it would not matter, since our country is not in
debt - our government is. As an individual, you are in debt only if you
personally have borrowed money, or spent more than you have. The idea that,
because of geography, you are born with some sort of debt on your shoulders
is absurd. Fortunately, despite the concept being silly and non-sensical,
it doesn't hold up legally, either. If it did, the law, local or international,
would have to support slavery, which it doesn't.

No, when a government really goes broke, its debts are ususally just forgiven.
Ironically, however, at 4 trillion, we`re hardly broke! I don't pretend to
understand it or even care, but I do know that I, my wife, and my child do
_not_ owe $15,000+ a piece to _anyone_.

Not a flame, just a commentary...

Tony Hamilton
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