HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Superstition
Date: 6 Apr 1992 15:04:51 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <22426@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>I think it's interesting to note that we who don't believe in ancient
>nomad-based superstition including deamons, spirits, original sins 

Be careful Kent.  Yeshua believed in demons.  He was always casting them
out of people while He was here in the flesh.  Yeshua believed in
spirits--angels and demons.

And, as far as original sin, this has *always* been the doctrine of the
orthodox (small o) Christian church from the beginning.  Pelagius was
thrown out as a heretic for denying it.  The reformation happened
because the Roman Catholic Church went back to a semi-Pelagian theology
about 500 years after throwing out his ideas.  One of the greatest minds
ever, in the Church or out of it, Augustine, clearly repeated what Paul
said about man's nature--that we are born in a state of sin, and
corrupted from the beginning.  Paul got it (the idea) from Isaiah and
Jeremiah, "There is none who seeks after God, no not even one.", and
"The human heart is deceitfully wicked and evil, who can know it?"  If
you deny original sin (the doctrine that says all men are born with a
corrupted moral nature, and naturally evil from the start), then you
place yourself in the camp of the heretics.

>and so on, we have a far better way of living our lives, compared with
>people that have to worry about deamons, the devil, sinning, the hell,
>and so on.

Be careful again Kent.  If Yeshua talked about demons and the devil as
if they were real, who are we to question Him?  And if Yeshua told us
that many would go to hell for their sins--that the way to life was
narrow and few would find it but the way to destruction was broad and
most would go that way--then who are we to question Yeshua?  On what
authority can you, as a creature, question the Creator?

>If you would like to live a rich and worryless life, give up on 
>superstition! 

If you would like to live the way God intended for you to live, stop
trying to be righteous by your own efforts, and cast all your hope and
trust in Him who died for you to take your sin upon Himself, and lived
the perfectly righteous live in order to give His righteousness to you
as a free gift.  However, it won't be easy!  You'll be confronted with
your sin at every turn, and you'll experience more trial and tribulation
than you could ever imagine.  After all, the way that leads to death
*is* broad, and much easier, than the way that leads to life, which *is*
narrow.

>Cheers,
>Kent
>who don't believe in astrology, deamons or elves

It's good not to mess with astrology, since God commanded against it.
Elves are a pagan fairy tale, and you're smart not to believe in them.
Demons are real, however, and you want nothing to do with them.

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Pesach and Easter
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:29:31 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Apr6.130123.1@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au> b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
>Looking at the calendar last night, I noticed that the Passover falls on Easter
>this year (i.e. they coincide). In my previous experience, I have never known
>the two festivals to coincide. In fact, I thought I read somewhere that the
>early Church deliberately took the decision to adjust the formula for Easter so
>that it would *never* coincide with Passover (maybe it's been discussed on this
>group).
>
>Can anyone shed any light on this? Do they sometimes coincide? How often?

I was not aware that the early church tried to always keep Easter from
falling on Passover.  Passover rotates around the days of the week, I think,
because it falls on a certain day of the month on the Jewish calendar.
If it happens to fall on the right Sunday, it will be on Easter, as far
as I know.  I don't even know what the pattern for Easter is for sure.

But what you might be thinking of is the contraversy in the early church,
(or maybe primitive church is a better word) over when the day should be
celebrated.  In the Eastern Church, it was celebrated according to the
Jewish day of the month on the Jewish calendar.  In Rome, and other western
churches, it was celebrated on Sunday according to the Western calendar.
Victor, bishop of Rome, for example opposed keeping this holiday according
to the Jewish calendar.   
Link Hudson.
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Free will (was Re: Armageddon NOW!)
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:16:42 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <81734@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
>I don't have a Westminster Confession here at work, but the Westminster 
>Confession does say some things about free will and has scripture references 
>to back them up. The one that seems applicable here is that when people come
>to Christ it says something like "They come freely. They are not coerced."

                      Westminster Confession of Faith
                         Chapter IX - Of Free-Will

I.  God has endued the will of man with that natural ability, that it is
neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to
good, or evil.

II.  Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to
do that which was good and well pleasing to God, but yet, mutably, so that
he might fall from it.

III.  Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of
will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man,
being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by
his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV.  When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of
grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace
alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;
yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not
perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but does also will that which
is evil.

V.  The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone
in the state of glory only.

Bill,

You will note from the teaching of the Confession that what we think of as
"free will" only existed before the fall of man in Genesis.  (I personally
think this chapter of the Confession should be titled "Of Human Will".) 
Adam and Eve were absolutely free to obey God; to do good works.  But after
the fall man's nature was changed.  He became a sinner, and every area of
his being, including his will, was infected by sin.  He was no longer free
to do good towards God.  The Confession goes on to explain that the Holy
Spirit needs to change the heart of man through the process of regeneration
so that he is able to respond to God.  Without this vital work of the
Spirit, no man can, of his own "free will," turn to Christ.

That's why the concept of "free will" in the context of an unsaved person
is meaningless.  No unsaved person has "free will" to accept or reject
Christ.  As Luther taught, man's will is in bondage to his sin nature. 
Without the regenerating act of the Spirit, no one will choose Christ.  The
only people who "choose Christ" are those who have been chosen by Him, and
made alive by His Spirit.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: proper wording of ?
Date: 10 Apr 1992 03:24:05 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

To my very simple mind, Dan 9:24-27 tells us when the Messiah will
arrive, and also says that He will have arrived *before* Yerushalayim
and the Temple are destroyed.  This points to Yeshua.  So I think He's
the Messiah.

I want to have a *Rabbinic* *Jewish* interpretation of this passage from
the Tanach.  So, I'm going to ask several prominent rabbis here in Los
Angeles.  But, before I ask, I would like some of the Rabbinic Jews here
to provide me with the "proper" wording for the question.  As long as
you really ask the question "What does Dan 9:25-26 mean, and why doesn't
it refer to Yeshua?", I'll use your wording.  So, provide your desired
wording to be presented to Los Angeles Jewry.

By the way, Rob and Rob, I'm still waiting to hear what *you* think this
passage means.  I await both your interpretation, and your desired
wording of the question.

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Saved while vulnerable
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 23:30:15 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <ku1hbsINNalj@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:


|> You can't be saved until you realize how absolutely retched you are, how
|> sinful you are, and how *HOLY* God is.  When you realize that you'll
|> never reach God's perfect *HOLY* standard (following the Torah
|> perfectly, both in letter and in spirit, your whole life), then you just
|> might cry out to Yeshua and ask Him to give you the salvation that He
|> promised to all the prophets of olden days.  As long as you hold on to
|> the idea that you can make God happy with you by your own efforts,
|> you'll never be saved, nor will you ever appease God.  God is *HOLY*,
|> and He is pissed off at our sin.  (I used those words purposely--not to
|> be flippant, but to make the point as strongly as I can.)  God is
|> *HOLY*, and He is enraged at us.  We all deserve to go to hell, and some
|> of us will make it there.
|> 

[obbligato speeches deleted]

I don't want Christian missionaries telling *toddlers* how
absolutely wretched they are, and that they deserve to
go to hell.  Especially *my* toddlers.  Ask yourself
whether you'd like me preaching to your toddlers and
then apply the Golden Rule.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Ark of the Covenant
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:40:09 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <kt3q6eINNs9j@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J.
Hendrickson) writes:
>> At the turn of the year King Nebuchadnezzar summoned him [Jehoiachin]
> and took him to Babylon, with the *costly* articles from the house of
> the LORD, and made Zedekiah, Jehoiakim's brother, king over Judah and
> Jerusalem.
> 
> And *all* the articles from the house of God, *great* and small, the
> *treasures* of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and
> of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon.
> 
> So, Nebuchadnezzar is our villian, and the Ark has gone to Babylon.
> Will it come back to Eretz Yisrael???

:-). Yet another prime example how people twist and tweak words
so they mean something different. I could as well interpret that
the costly articles from the house of Lord was just the costly ones,
and not the *holy* ones, i.e. no ark.

I think Van Impe, Cerullo, Lindsay and similar crankpots are
busy creating similar mis-match theories, and Van Impe is especially
good at twisting the word of God. No wonder people are skeptical
today concerning religion and politics.

Cheers,
Kent
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Messianic Front [NOT!]
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:25:05 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Apr16.133333.19474@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <9204151801.AA03849@abvax.icd.ab.com> benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com.mu.edu writes:
>>
>> 2) Messianic Judaism, the movement, doesn't convert Gentile Christians.
>>            [ sorry if I clouded the issue. ]
>
>This is an odd statement.  Perhaps one of the MJs can clarify.  Is Bruce
>claiming that MJs do not share the gospel with non-Jews?  Or is he saying
                             [...]
It seems pretty clear to me.  They are not trying to "sheep-steal" from
congregations of Christians that do not have the Messianic Jewish focus.
They are seeking to reach out to the lost sheep of Israel, rather than
trying to convert other Christians to their own perspectives.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Yehudim for Yeshu
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:12:50 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <9204151256.AA01156@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
                           [...]
>Being a descendant of Abraham does not make a person Jewish.  I
>thought I explained that weeks ago.
                           [...]
Of course not.  Jewish parents does the trick, though.  I suppose
one could renounce his Jewishness?  Short of that, how does one who
is born Jewish and circumcised according to the law become Unjewish?
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:30:58 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1828

>Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 1 Apr 92 20:16:51 GMT

>The future for Israel revolves around their coming to faith in Messiah
>Jesus, not in rebuilding the old covenant sacrificial system as typified by
>the Temple.  Jews need to realize that Jesus came to earth and died for
>them so THEY could become the Temple of God by the indwelling power of the
>Holy Spirit.  When this happens, then they will know true peace ... a peace
>that can come only from the Prince of peace.

You actually said something I agree with!  Hear!  Hear!

#1830

>Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
>From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
>Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 01:48:07 GMT

>Just as Abraham erred when he tried to produce an heir through his
>handmaiden, I believe Christians err when we try to force prophecy
>to be fulfilled.  As it is we are remiss in doing those things
>that Christ specifically instructed us to do.  It is foolish to
>spend our resources in other areas where we have no direction from
>God to do so.

Amen!

>As you may have noticed in this group, most Jews today have
>forgotten about the blood that was sprayed onto everything in the
>temple to cleanse it.  The sight must have been distressing.
>Perhaps the Lord desires to jog their memories before He appears.
>As far as any inherent spiritual value, I don't believe it (the
>temple) would have any.  It is the blood of Jesus alone that saves
>anyone and everyone who puts their faith in him.

I agree with this.  As such, the Temple may play an important role in
bringing Jews to salvation.  It would also appear that the Temple will
continue to play such a "witness" role during the Millennium.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:19:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Apr6.221929.12339
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <81734@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:
>                ...            I am a Christian who has more sympathy
>with Calvinism than the other isms, but I submit that the people who
>cause the most trouble for the Body of Christ are the ones who take the
>extreme positions on issues theologians have been unable to agree on.

Amen.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Those Vulnerable Victim's
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 03:38:56 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <9204081255.AA05697@abvax.icd.ab.com>, "20583, BENNING, BRUCE" <abvax!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!BENNING> writes:

|> 
|>  Your brother-in-law and sister are the son's who said they would
                           [ sister-in-law ]
|>  not work in the vineyard, but changed their minds. They have now
|>  entered the kingdom of G-d. I suspect they don't share your grief
|>  over their new citizenship. They probably thank G-d that someone
|>  cared enough to tell them about Yeshua, when they were vulnerable
|>  and in need of His mercy and grace.
|> 
Those of you who have heard me tell this before will please
forgive the repetition.

My brother-in-law was 20 when he converted to Christianity.
At that time, his older brother and older sister (who
became my wife) were not living at home, but he was
still living at home with his little sister, who
was then 12 years old.  Over a period of several
months, he kept telling his little sister that
she would burn in hell forever unless she promised
to believe in Jesus.  After several months of that,
she promised.  Some caring.

When my wife's brother and sister grew up and married
(non-Jews), and my wife and children met them at family
gatherings, my wife's brother and sister and their
spouses would seek opportunities to find my children
(then of toddler age) and when they were alone
with them would tell them that Jesus was watching
them all the time and could read their thoughts
and that they would burn in hell if they didn't
believe.  Some caring.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Paul (was Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1992 04:11:10 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr7.193130.19145@portland.mdc.unisys.com>, tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

|> But perhaps the most important contribution of the apostles are the letters
|> written specifically to the newly founded "synagogues" of the followers of
|> Messiah.  Many of these Christian synagogues were started by a former
|> Jewish Pharisee named Saul (Paul) of Tarsus.  It was his task, in the
|> economy of God, to establish Christ's church as a community, not based
|> strictly on racial relationships, but on the common faith of Jesus Christ. 
|> His letters to the Churches, and to his associates, provided the early
|> believers with an invaluable foundation on which to construct the Church of
|> Jesus Christ.
|> 
|> It was this additional revelation that was given to the people of God by
|> the apostle Paul which gives the Church is distinctive universal character.
|> In fact in the earliest creeds of Christianity, we are corporately
|> referred to as the "one holy catholic and apostolic church."  The creed
|> teach us that our faith is universally founded on the teachings of the
|> apostles of Jesus Christ.
|> 
|> I believe the early success of the gospel in penetrating the whole world is
|> due to the universal appeal.  No longer was the religion of Yahweh limited
|> in scope to a small, insignificant nation in Judea.  For the first time it
|> could reach out into all the world, as promised in the writings of the
|> prophets.  Because of the apostles of Jesus, "the earth would be full of
|> the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the seas."
|> 

Many Jews believe that the teachings of Paul, more so than the
teachings of Jesus, contributed to the separation of Christianity
from Judaism.

What was the basis for assuming that the letters of Paul
were "revelation"?  Suppose they were just "letters" ---
wouldn't Christianity be vastly different?  Paul certainly
doesn't qualify as a prophet by any criterion.

Incidentally, speaking as a member of that "small, insignificant nation",
I believe that we Jews have reached out into all the world, as promised
in the writings of the prophets.  All the world has been touched
by our deeds.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Pesach and Easter
Date: 6 Apr 1992 14:43:30 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Apr6.130123.1@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au> b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
>Looking at the calendar last night, I noticed that the Passover falls on Easter
>this year (i.e. they coincide).

Shouldn't they *always* coincide?

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: The purpose and meaning of circumcision
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:52:23 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Apr7.092721.15746@pbs.org> btiffany@pbs.org writes:
>
>You didn't answer the question.  WHERE did Jesus say the nation of Israel
>would be "punished by God" for rejecting the Messiah?

Bruce,

Get real.  I quoted sections of Matthew 23 and 24 and Matthew 27:25.  Now
you have the gall to ignore the quotes, no comment - no nothing, and then
come back and ask your question AGAIN.  How many times do I have to answer,
and how many time will you ignore me?

>>The blood of the prophets, and the blood of the Messiah, was paid for by
>>that generation.
>
>This is really a strange mutation of "Christianity".  ...

Pay attention to the Bible, Bruce.  I offered texts; Matthew 23:33-24-2;
Matthew 27:25 (please comment on that one ... don't ignore it again).  It's
all there in black and white.  Comment on the passages for a change.  Give
us the benefit of your extensive MJ background and theology.  Or are we
dealing with a problem of too much "minute detail" again?

Please how us that you really believe the Bible by dealing with the texts
now and then, and that you just don't rely on your MJ traditions.

-- 
Tom Albrecht