From: robinson@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: New Subscriber and a look on hunting
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:41:27 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <+-4t-al@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
> In article <1992Apr6.122808.4817@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>In article <s0ttz8q@rpi.edu>, schwae@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Eric A. Schwartz) writes:
>>> In article <dirk.701805434@vincent1.iastate.edu> dirk@iastate.edu (Sleepy) writes:
>>>>In <1992Mar27.082727.5985@rtf.bt.co.uk> traub@rtf.bt.co.uk (Michael Traub) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <1992Mar26.101119.4553@ac.dal.ca> robinson@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hint #3: It is a well known fact among hunters that deer who have 
>>>>>>survived prior hunting seasons catch on to the begining of one very quickly 
>>>>>>and become almost totally nocturnal.  Those who refuse to learn, and adapt, 
>>>>>>end up on the supper table.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>That  doesn't  sound  particularly nice to me. This implies that hunters do
>>>>>far  more  damage  than  just  kill  a  few  deer, they actually change the
>>>>>living habits of the animal.
>>>>
>>>>The hunting season forces the deer to become more defensive, if not, they die.
>>>> 
>>>>  In Iowa, hunters annually bag about 25% of the deer population. And each
>>>>year, the total deer population grows. It's not as if hunters are wiping
>>>>out the population.
>>>>
>>> But they may be damaging the quality of that population.  Besides, if you 
>>> are mainly catching the young, inexperienced animals, then the damage
>>> would not show up for a few years, until the old ones die off and you 
>>> are left with smaller, weaker, less able breeders to propagate the species.
>>> It's happened with Blue whales.  They are much smaller than they used to
>>> be.
>>
>>Really?  How exactly is the population damaged?  You think hunters kill off 
>>all the really strong, smart deer, leaving the sick and weak behind?  Lets 
>>assume this is so for a moment.  Now, what happens right after hunting 
>>season?  Winter.  Winter is a time of harsh weather and little food.  Only 
>>the strongest survive it, and they're usually not in great shape at the 
>>end.
>>
> No, I don't think hunters take only the strong.  The argument is 
> hypothetical.  But it did happen with Blue whales.  Going by your
> argument, however, assuming only the strong are taken and only the
> strong can survive winter, that would lead to extinction of deer in
> a generation or two.

I suspect that the entire population is relatively healthy, undoubtedly 
there are a few exceptions, during hunting season.  I think the case of the 
blue whales is sufficiently different from that of the whitetail (or other 
land mamals) that comparisons are not especially valid.

>   
>>>>   Otherwise, even though that deer has walked down that trail every
>>>>morning for the last year, s/he will smell human, maybe hear human, or
>>>>see human, and simply go the other way. I've seen it, I have heard about
>>>>it numerous times, I have read about it numerous times.
>>> 
>>> The reason that there are "Deer Crossing" signs on highways is that
>>> they do not stop using ancestral  trails.  Even with noisy, smelly
>>> cars running over them.  And they never seem to learn not to get hit
>>> by those.  IMO, it is more likely that it is specifically your behavior
>>> that scares the deer off.  You sit there like a sloppy predator, making
>>> an obvious effort to conceal yoursellf, but not doing a good job at it.
>>> Deer don't seem to fear cars.  IMO that is because cars are clearly not
>>> predators.  They move whether or  not they are seen, they take no 
>>> action to keep the deer upwind, they don't try to be quiet, they don't
>>> try to hide.  
>>
>>Funny thing but deer usually aren't afraid of cars at all.  Stop the car 
>>and get out and *walk* however and they take off like someone hit them with 
>>lightning.
>>
> Because they recognize you as human or because one animal burrowing out
> of another is frightening?  Or because the noise of the door opening
> scares them, or you tend to open the door quickly and the jerky movement
> scares them?  Or because the car stopping to investigate the deer does
> seem predatory for a change, or.....
>   

Well, *I think* it is because people don't shoot deer from cars as they 
drive down the highway.  Even though one is not supposed to do it, it does 
happen sometimes on our backroads.  I rarely see deer when travelling 
backroads by car.

Along the highway, I think it is because they recognize you as human, and 
recognize cars as being associated with humans. 

>>> When I used to go horseback riding,  the stablemaster said he often
>>> saw deer, but only when on a horse.  The horse didn't act predatory,
>>> either, so the deer weren't afraid.  I've seen lots of wildlife, 
>>> some far more shy than deer, by not moving like a predator.  I go
>>> slowly, and avoid loud noises, but I don't make any effort to conceal
>>> myself or my presence.  In fact, I deliberately give it away.  That
>>> way, they know I'm not trying to attack them, and they don't run.
>>
>>I'll have to try this next time I go hunting. :-)  During hunting season 
>>deer are usually ultra paranoid.  They will assume that falling leaf is 
>>predatory under some circumstances. :-)
>>
> Do so.  It should work, unless you get impatient with it.  It is not
> as quick and easy as stealth.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Stealth, at least around here and from 
what I've read this applies to other areas as well, is neither quick nor 
easy.  One must usually be very stealthy indeed.

> 
>>>>   Or, try hunting a deer on the ground. This is high near impossible.
>>>>A deer will probably see you long, long before you see it, hear you long
>>>>before you hear it... The only way to groundhunt deer is to move
>>>>_slowly_ (1/2 hour for 100 yards movement) around an area that is
>>>>usually active with deer, and hope that a deer comes wandering by, running
>>>>from other hunters.
>>> 
>>> Or sit by any highway.
>>
>>Or use a light.  Around here one isn't allowed to do either.  Not allowed 
>>to shoot within several hundred yards of highways, buildings, etc.
>>
> It may not be legal, but it would work.  So that is not the only way
> to groundhunt.  And if there is a second method, why wouldn't there
> be others?

There are others.  When I said there were no other ways to ground hunt 
them, I should have qualified that with no other *legal* ways.  Of course, 
the above not withstanding, if you can *spot* them, you can *stalk* them.  
I've gotten remarkably close to deer doing this, but I still haven't gotten 
a shot.

In general, groundhunting requires one to move quietly and try to either 
run into a deer that is up and around for some reason (eating, running from 
other hunters, checking its scrapes) or to find their beds and try to 
quietly work close enough to jump them.  The latter is very hard work.  Both 
involve much walking, few sightings, and even fewer shots.

> 
> E.S.
-- 
John Robinson                  Only criminals, tyrants, and cowards have
robinson@ac.dal.ca                 reason to fear the armed, honest citizen.
DOD #0069
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals