HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: bear vs. twink
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:38:40 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA 94065
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <46140@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>In article <14728.2b0b3de6@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Michael S. Pettersen) writes:
>>I am very disturbed by the fact that in all this discussion of bear
>>vs. twink, that no one has presented the viewpoint of those of us who
>>are admirers both of Jacob, who was a smooth man, and Esau, his brother,
>>who was an hairy man. I'm tired of people saying that it's just a phase,
>>that I'm really one or the other, but don't have the courage to come out
>>completely.
>
>I subscribe to the "wine" theory of attraction:
>
>  I don't care what it says on the label, 

As long as it has a penis, right?

>  I'll judge by what's
>  on the inside, thank you very much.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Gilly                                 Oracle Corporation
dgilly@us.oracle.com                         Redwood Shores, CA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: md@sco.COM (Michael Davidson)
Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me about this TV show?
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 00:43:37 GMT
Keywords: Are You Being Served?


In article <1992Nov10.130725.22886@lloyd.Camex.COM> ma@lloyd.Camex.COM (Mary Ann Purcell) writes:
>  I have been watching a British comedy from the early to mid '70s
>called "Are You Being Served?".  It's playing here in Boston on 
>channel 2 (PBS) at 11:00 pm.  One of the characters is a gay man.
>No one seems to care he's gay.  And he doesn't try to hide it.  It
>seems so strange to watch a show on TV that treats it's gay character
>just like any other.  Can anyone tell me about the man who plays the
>character, John Innman?  Is this still playing in the UK?  Are gays
>portraied better on British TV than here in the states?  

I have to admit to being a little confused by your remarks - this could
have something to do with the fact that I think that "Are You Being Served"
is one of the *worst* programs ever produced by the BBC. The character
played by John Inman is certainly not that of an openly gay man who is
out of the closet - it is at best a caricature of a sterotype .... (but
then so are all of the other characters in the program so perhaps it isn't
*quite* so bad).

Actually the portrayal of gays on British TV is a lot better now than
it was 5 or 6 years ago - when I was in the UK a few months ago I saw
several gay themed programs on Channel 4. In addition, the British
soap-opera, "Eastenders" has had gay characters for some time now and
has also dealt with the issues of AIDS and HIV in a way that I have not seen
in American popular entertainment. (btw Eastenders is carried by several
PBS stations in the US)

Britain is also way ahead of the US in it's use of television in 
AIDS education and awareness - something that continues to amaze me.

So, yes, British television isn't too bad in it's treatment of gays
but *please* don't hold up "Are You Being Served" as an example ....
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings)
Subject: Re: Food for thought, was : Bear Crap
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 21:01:07 GMT

In article <14757.2b0f6a7f@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Michael S. Pettersen) writes:
>In article <74560@apple.apple.COM>, richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>> Dave Kerlick writes:
>> 
>>>>GDM:
>>>>I realize we're probably not going to do away with the prejudice
>>>>against "overweight" any time soon; but there is no reason
>> 
>>>To put it in another light, how would tall people feel if they were
>>>referred to in the media and by others as "overheight?"
>> 
>Choice or no choice, discrimination on the basis of height also exists.
>It's well known, I think, that the taller candidate for president is more
>likely to win; it may not be as widely known that there is a correlation 
>between height and wages (tall=$$$).

Height isn't always a plus.  Everyone please shed a tear for attractive 
men 6'4" and over who are told they are too tall to model professionally.
Yup.  It happens.  Males have pretty much gotta be between 5'11" and
6'3" to walk that runway.
Gosh, sort of tugs the ol' heartstrings, don't it?
-paul

-- 
Aunt Em,
     Hate you.  Hate Kansas.
     Taking the dog.
                        Dot.
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me about this TV show?
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:23:55 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

Nelson Minar writes:

>Goodness, you do know how to give me goosebumps. Will you give me all
>of Dead City Radio? 

>   Life in all its rich variety, do not falter
>   Let your love enter unto him and penetrate him with a divine lubricant
>   Makes KY and lanolin feel like sandpaper.

Thanks for the counter-goosebumps, kid.  Tell me where to send the discs
to.  Or should I deliver them via Air Squirrel?

And speaking of flying, a very special thanks to occasional poster Mary
Shafer for the fa-a-a-a-a-bulous tour of Edwards AFB last week.  Besides
being a good excuse to go flying, we saw all sorts of techno-goodies that
gave me an EE_erection.  We vowed to get Fruitbat down there someday...
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

i'm your girl            friend
i'm your squirrel        friend
i'm your round the world friend

"In America, we can't even get corruption right."  - my CFII.
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: FAMOUS GAYS from GAYNET (fwd)
Date: 17 Nov 92 06:24:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov17.062444.28771
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <69672@cup.portal.com> Minotaur@cup.portal.com (A Frank Swilling) writes:
>Tom Selleck has said time and time again that he not gay.  Anyway,
>the man says he is straight, and I don't know a soul who has any
>reason to disbelieve him.  Isn't it time we took him off our "Queer
>and in the Closet" lists?

I've never has sex with Tom Selleck, and probably wouldn't even if I
got the chance to. I don't know if he's gay or not (even with that
moustache..). I have a hard time feeling nice towards him though since
his lawsuit on the basis that being labelled gay is libelous.

>And put Arnold Schwarzenegger on them?

On the queer list? Bleah. He did pose for Honcho, though..
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   Finger nelson@reed.edu for my public key
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyarman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Donald L Yarman)
Subject: Re: Rap (Yes, you're still in soc.motss) (Re: Marky Mark
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:43:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.090324.12540@ads.com> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes
:
>lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Donald Andrew Agarrat) wrote:
>->...  It's a Black thing and most Gay White men can't relate to
>->it and don't understand it.
>
>what an ignorant thing to say.>

Actually, no, it wasn't.  Rap is very much a "black thing."  It
is rooted in very old patterns of African and African-American
communicative styles, and is tied intimately with the realities
of Black existence.  Rap is linked to the communicative phenomenon
of "signifying," something that those individuals raised outside
of Black culture cannot easily understand.

Donald wasn't being racist when he said that white, gay men
couldn't understand; but he was, I think, overstating his case
a bit.  I think "camping" in gay culture (or "cultchah," if you
prefer) provides an analogy to signifying.  It will take some
work, but I think white people _can_ (eventually) come to
some sort of understanding.

--Don (who tries)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:54:13 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <17036@umd5.umd.edu>, jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer) wrote:

> > (Who was Rosane, Rosanna Danna?  I thought that was Gilda...)
> 
> Yes....  What?  As though Gilda wasn't talented
> enough for *two* roles?

No, no, no.  Just checking to see if I could still remember at
least *one* of the skits (well, there's Belushi as the samurai deli 
dude and Chevy Chase as the news anchor - did Tomlin have one
where she was a little girl and sat in a high chair and said
"That's the twuth, pthhhhptht"?  I *know* Tomlin did something
with slurred R's!!!)

*X*
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:03:51 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) who clearly hasn't spent
enough time in the *Big* (red?) Apple, writes (of the queue waiting
for Greg's face): 

 >Squirrel: Stand in line, boys, stand in line.  Hey, no shoving!
Er, welcome to NY, Richard.  That's how things are done here.

 >Many thanks to the throngs that were brave enough to (a) meet me, (b)
 >enter the West Village, (c) enter a Caribbean restaurant, (d) ask me
 >about Matthew.  I had a great time.

So did I.  It made a nice change from Chinese food, too.  (But
they're not as laid back about letting us sit down while the crowd
convenes.)

And Tovah's soup really didn't have pods in it, did it?

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.sex
From: pmcdermo@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Patrick F. McDermott)
Subject: Re: hazing (posted for an anonymous contributor)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:00:50 GMT
Organization: Washington & Lee University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Well I must say I'm glad to hear that someone outthere has noticed this
interesting phenomenon! Here at Washington and Lee University we have 17
fraternities for a male population of approximately 900. Stories of
repressed homosexual hazing activities abound. Psychologists I have spoken
to feel that hazing offers many frat men an opportunity to play out their
wildest fantasies without risk of damage to their reputation because
everything is confidential. A very interesting and potentially dangerous
problem!
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalists and the clitoris
Organization: Smiley Abolition Front
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:13:34 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.002547.2196@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>whee, feeling stressed? Engage in an ad hoc argument about evolution!
>
>In article <1992Nov16.212806.4163@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:
>>the clitoris is an evolutionary accident; it is a non-functional
>>counterpart of a functional male organ, the penis.
>
>define function.
>
>>It is very much like male nipples in this respect; again, nipples are
>>functional on women, and men have them because of evolutionary inertia.
>
>my nipples don't function? Tell that to anyone who's sucked on them.

I say this because in almost every mammal species, male nipples
and clitorises are *entirely* nonfunctional, since they are not
stimulated by sexual contact. I thought I made that adequately
clear in my posting... in this sense, it's valid to talk about
their pleasure function in humans being an evolutionary accident.
(I don't see how the term "accident" is perjorative in this
context, either, but I'm notoriously insensitive.)

>>It turns out that both of these organs are Good Things to have,
>>since they're fun to play with... but this was not a factor in
>>their evolution.
>...
>>In this sense, female orgasm is also an evolutionary accident
>
>thanks for telling me how evolution works! Gee, it's so simple.
>There's no *purpose* at all to clitorises, or girlies having orgasms.
>It's all an accident, a byproduct of a system that developed the True
>Significant Organs - the almighty penis and the vagina into which the
>penis fits.

What did I say that was inaccurate? In any event, I never said
there was no purpose to nipples on men, or to clitorises. I said
there was no *evolutionary* purpose; by which I meant, when they
arose, they had no adaptive value. That was all I meant by
"evolutionary purpose". Again, I don't see how this could be
taken as a perjorative statement.

>
>>I hasten to say that evolution is not a moral arbiter.
>
>Even though every sentence you've written makes evolution *sound* like
>a moral arbiter, by using such perjorative terms as "non-fuctional" to
>describe fundamental parts of sexual anatomy.
>
>I don't know particularly how you feel about the function of the
>clitoris in women's existence. You threw in a couple of disclaimers
>that made you sound inclusive and PC. But you just *can't* talk about
>evolution this way, about "purposes" and "accidents". 

This is the first time anyone's accused me of being PC... (I'm not
PC, but I use one at work)

>In this particular case, you come off sounding like a misogynist and
>an idiot.

Strange how quickly soc.motss degrades into ad hominem comments
and attacks. The other newsgroups I follow are a little more
civil.

You pays your access fees and you takes your chances...
-- 
Andrew Michael Solovay    

"We know that Solovay is a misogynist and an idiot..."
                --Melinda Shore
From: jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Inconsistency re CO boycott
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:27:56 GMT
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyles, Inc.


Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) wrote:
 
> You mean I'm about to become an official Yahweh cult now?

Jahowl!

--jns
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
From: corydin@wam.umd.edu (Tim Lachine)
Subject: CO-2
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:14:38 GMT

I don't get it, what does carbon dioxide have to do with being gay?
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Cheese-Louise
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:47:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.46047
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <46046@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>
>I have had the carefully aged (whatever that means - what would
>uncarefully aged cheese taste like?) wine dandelion wine and concur
>with Jess about its beauty with extra sharp cheddar.  

You'd think I'd get that stutter fixed!

The above sentence is supposed to read (and does read given enough
1987 Chateau Benoit Pinot Noir):

"I have had the carefully aged (whatever that means - what would
uncarefully aged cheese taste like?) extra sharp cheddar with 
dandelion wine and concur with Jess about the beauty of this
combination."

We now return to our regularly scheduled chaos.

--mark

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Anti-Leftist Epithets (was Re: A Strand of Bigotry)
Organization: Smiley Abolition Front
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:41:58 GMT

In article <19921121013659ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
>You've totally mischaracterized what Gary Strand actually wrote, which
>is actually fairly typical of totalitarian tinkerbell thinking. 

"Totalitarian tinkerbell" has a certain alliterative charm, but I
think it's had its day. My suggestion: Henceforth we should talk
about people who want to turn soc.motss into a "fascist Faerie".

Any takers?
-- 
Andrew Michael Solovay    

"When angry, count four. When very angry, swear."
                --Mark Twain
From: markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Marky Mark and Calvin Klein (was Re: Scott Masden)
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:52:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45986
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Nov16.181210.1358@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> gsmith@clio.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith) writes:
>In article <45907@ogicse.ogi.edu> markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:
>
>>I was at a total loss until I made a discovery which clarified it all:
>>I was running Kinsey UNIX version 6.
>
>Sheesh.  Madonna will run under version 6 but only in a van Dyke.  I
>thought everyone knew that.

Protocol encapsulation!  How could I have been so stupid as to miss that.
Morrissey, you're slipping.

The paper may yet be saved!

hmmm.  The encapsulation may prove tricky, however, as Kinsey UNIX
Version 6 has hard interfaces.

--mark
--
Mark Morrissey           One Hatred to rule them all.  One Hatred to find them.
markm@cse.ogi.edu        One Hatred to bring them all and in the darkness bind
                         them.  In the land of Bigotry where the Shadows lie.

Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality,co.politics,co.general,talk.politics.misc,co.politics.amend2.discuss,boulder.general,csu.general
From: jmacvean@willamette.edu (Jennifer MacVean)
Subject: Re: Support the boycott (was Re: Don't boycott all of Colorado)
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Willamette University, Salem OR
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 00:43:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.033529.13886@csrd.uiuc.edu> g-skinner@uiuc.edu writes:
>Most (all?) current English translations of Paul's letters contain
>references to homosexuality.  Once instance is in 1 Corinthians:
>
>   Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
>   prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives, ..., will inherit
>   the kingdom of God.
>
>I would be remiss if I did not mention that in some circles there is
>debate as to whether the Greek words have been translated correctly.
>--
>Gregg Skinner       I do not speak for any organization.
>

Not to mention that all of the references in the New Testament to
homosexuality are made by Paul except, I believe, an epistle (letter)
by Peter, which several bible scholars have said appears to have been
rewritten.  

While I do consider myself a Christian of sorts, I vehemently disagree
with *nearly all* of the letters of Paul, a raving fanatic against
everything you can imagine right down to women's rights not to be
treated as lousy, dangerous property.                   ____
						        \bi/
Lynne Mac Vean  (jmacvean@willamette.edu)  Salem, OR     \/
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Men Not Getting It (was Re: Twice Fucked)
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:00:10 GMT
	<1992Nov14.150859.8271@panix.com> <1992Nov15.160349.4486@macc.wisc.edu>
	<1992Nov15.165152.23276@tc.cornell.edu>
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Nov15.165152.23276@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

   Good question.  I'm coming to believe that the people (not
   just men) who do get it are ones who have had some direct
   experience with institutionalized oppression.

Hmm.  I like to think that I 'get it', but I don't really fit into
this mold.  I'm a white male who hasn't experienced unusual direct
oppression (other than the standard lack of insurance
benefits/marriage rights/etc).

Perhaps it's more a factor of how self-confident the individual is.
If you're confident of your own sexuality, you're less likely to be
bothered by others.  If you're confident of your place in male/female
interactions, you're less likely to have a problem with women.  And
further, you're more likely to be sympathetic to the plight of others
if you're confident of your place in the world.

Just a theory.


--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Bear Crap
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 23:52:09 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Nov16.041138.8829@tc.cornell.edu>
  <michaelh.721908229@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
  <1992Nov16.163852.19134@spdcc.com> <michaelh.721963181@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>

Mike Hennahane whines:
>the point of my
>posting (and melinda's i think) is that i get crabby sometimes reading
>yet another GDM whiny evangelical hell-fire bears uber alles posting.
>he really alienates me

Awwww... POOR **BABY**!  I'm only buried under disillusioning,
disenfranchising images of nothing but an *exceedingly* narrow
band of physical type in the gay media, absolutely NONE of which
I can identify with in the slightest.  Forgive the FUCK out of me 
for being pissed off that our supposedly more "enlightened"
community is as fucking bigoted against Persons of Fur as a lot
of WASP society is against Persons of Color or QueerFolk.

What the hell does it SAY when it's many times over easier for me
to find images I can identify with in the STRAIGHT media? _Al_ on
"Home Improvement"? Jeff Smith, the Frugal Gourmet? Wolf Blitzer
on CNN, for Gaia's sake!

I realize we're probably not going to do away with the prejudice
against "overweight" any time soon; but there is no reason
whatsoever -- bullshit aside -- that the much-vaunted (by others)
_International Male_ catalogue couldn't have a handsome,
muscular, 40ish Daddy type with a furry chest and a thick, salt
and pepper moustache -- or a late 20s Bear Cub with a nice beard and
a "torso-t" of fur to emphasize his pecs and abs.  

And this is just one example.... It goes on *much* further.
 
() >How do the hypothalamuses of bears and twinks compare?
() Before we examine that question you first need to
() establish that twinks indeed have brains.
()      -- Rob Bernardo
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly)
Subject: Re: Bear Crap
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA 94065
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:57:15 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Nov18.061506.3573@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <1992Nov17.212900.24865@oracle.us.oracle.com> 
   dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly) writes:

>>however, I think
>>a lot of people harbor either ignorance or cautious sensitivity 
>>when it comes to the purpose of the codes.  Maybe someone 
>>could shed some light on this.
>
>If you consider it just a bit of silliness, and take it in that light,
>you'll have caught the gist of it.

I have often thought of it that way, but then I started wondering 
about the negative reactions Bob Donahue reported getting.  I thought,
"There must be a *reason* that these people get so huffy."  
They would do well to heed your advice.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Gilly                                 Oracle Corporation
dgilly@us.oracle.com                         Redwood Shores, CA
Newsgroups: soc.motss