From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Past Civilizations
Keywords: Spinning, Marcab, space opera
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:39:59 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab


Thanks for answering my questions.

wakeman@crchh7ce.BNR.CA (John Wakeman) writes:

>In article <schaf.726565952@cgl.ucsf.edu>, schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu
>(Chris Schafmeister) writes:

> . . . buncha stuff deleted previous in this thread . . .

>|>I'm going to assume that you believe in past-lives, I have
>|>a few questions that are open to anyone.
>|>
>|>Why do you believe in reincarnation and past-lives?
>|>What kind of machinery could possibly exist in the universe 
>|>to constantly cycle thetans from one body to the next?
>|>Where did the thetans come from?
>|>How can they interact with our physical bodies to
>|>control our muscles?
>|>What is the structure of a soul that it is able to store
>|>memories between bodies?
>|>What is the function of our complex brains if our thetans
>|>can do all of our remembering and thinking?
>|>Why has the universe been constructed as a play-ground for thetans?
>|>Who constructed this whole thing?
>|>If it is our own 'thetans' that run this whole show then
>|>why do we cripple ourselves by wiping out all of our past
>|>lives whenever we step into a new body?
>|>If our thetans consciously decide to forget everything
>|>and assume new bodies then why should people
>|>remember 'past-lives'.
>|>What is the situation with mentally-handicapped people?
>|>Are they handicapped thetans?  Or have they crippled themselves
>|>by entering crippled bodies?
>|>What happens to thetans in bodies that undergo brain damage?
>|>It goes on and on...
>|>

>Whoa, lotta questions there with alot of meat. 
> 

> [text deleted to save bandwidth]


>If it is our own 'thetans' that run this whole show then why do we cripple
>ourselves by wiping out all of our past lives whenever we step into a new body?
>I'll give you a Scientology based answer here for lack of better... The past is
>so painful, it is better to have it buried than to have it right out
>front in the
>memory system.  Of course, how this occurs I don't know.   I can echo
>your question
>and query why is it most folks don't remember conception up through the
>first four
>or five years of life?

Thats actually a good question to turn back at you.
One has to wonder why a fully functioning thetan
would not be able to record and remember eperiences from conception
on.

Since you asked me I'd say that NO
memory can be developed until the fetus
developes a BRAIN. I'd say that higher memory,
the kind that we use when we remember and relate
experiences to other people, does not develop until
a child develops linguistic abilities.
Why do I think that?  Well, because I don't think people
have the concepts of 'me', 'you', 'that', 'here', 'there' ...
until they start to communicate.  I get this from some
studies I've heard that were done on sensory deprived children.
I'm quite certian that NO personality can develop in a vacuum,
without any contact with other people.

To store higher memory, you need a brain and a personality.
To learn from experience, eg: don't put your hand in a fire,
you only need a working brain.


>What is the situation with mentally-handicapped people?
>Are they handicapped thetans?  Or have they crippled themselves
>by entering crippled bodies?
>What happens to thetans in bodies that undergo brain damage?
>It goes on and on...
>I'll go with my Eastern philosoophy here,  ever heard of karma?

>|>Why do you believe that in a physical universe that isn't supposed
>|>to be real at all, but a fantasy constructed by the collective
>|>aggreement of many thetans that there should be any objective
>|>evidence for past-lives?


>|>Why do you believe that you can find any hint of a spiritual reality
>|>within our physical universe?
>|>Why do you give money to listen to people who probably
>|>don't know the answers to your questions anyway?
>|>
>|>Why don't you just be patient, live life as best you can, 
>|>and see what happens when you die?
>|>
>|>.Chris.
>  
>Chris, do you pay to go to school?  Yes, of course.  Do you agree with
>everything you learn there?   Hopefully not!  That is one of the greatest
>facets of mankind, that we are entreated with the ability to challenge 
>existing schools of thought and create new versions of reality.  i.e. to 
>reference a favorite in this group "GEB-EGB" because people questioned
>Euclid's fifth thereom, we have non-euclidean geometry.   I only seek to
>know, not claim to have the answers.  So, even though I can formulate answers
>to your questions, I really think, I should question to you why is it so
>important to find potoential fault with what you assume to be my beliefs rather
>than to pursue the answers to the questions that you have yourself.

It is not that I want to find fault in these beliefs.
I don't mean this is a bad way, but in my opinion,
any single belief made on such scanty evidence
that creates hundreds of un-answerable questions is
crippled to begin with.  In order to accept the
belief in life-after-death, you have to eat your
brain and avoid any rational thought on the matter.

People have been wondering about life/death
since they began wondering.  Where has it gotten us?
People have been wondering/learning about nature for about
400 years, look where it has gotten us.

I think that, in general, belief in any form of the
here-after has done nothing but cause devastation
throughout human history.
It gives people a few warm fuzzy feelings but
at the cost of rational thought.

It lowers the value placed on life.

I wonder WHY people believe in it.

>john
>============================================================================
>I don't know what's going on, I just work here.
>BNR doesn't endorse anything I say....    ANYTHING!

>wakeman@bnr.ca
>============================================================================
>                                       

.Chris.

-- 
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Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu