HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson)
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 05:39:13 GMT

dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) writes:

>The decision was not his to make.  If his conscience is clear because
>he felt he did the right thing, this does nothing to change the fact
>that he commited treason and compromised the security of the United 
>States.  As to his punishment: in sensible countries, traitors
>are executed.
>dan

I don't know (or care) about the details of the Pollard case, but I
highly suspect that he was not convicted of treason as treason is
quite carefully specified in the US Constitution.

From the US Constitution, Article III, Section 3

	Article III
	Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist 
	only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their 
	enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be 
	convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses 
	to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Cheers,
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 23:37:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.200354.19516@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:

>It is clear that the Israel strategy to make sure no war is fought on the
>original Palestinian land and secure the water resources from South Syria
>and Lebanon.

Actually, it is Syria's strategy to ensure that Lebanon will be it's
battleground with Israel and with the PLO.  This is why attacks
against Israel are waged across the Lebanese border instead of the
Syrian border.  The Israelis can retaliate across either border.  The
Lebanese would probably prefer a Syrian withdrawal before an Israeli
one.  



-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:25:21 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov22.192135.558@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
~
~His fate was worse than that of several genuine traiotrs, like the
~Walker family, who sold secrets to the Soviets for years.

But not, of course, as bad as that meted out to Mordechai Vanunu (sp?), who
also acted according to his own conscience, and was illegally kidnapped and
imprisoned in inhumane conditions.






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

Seen on rec.arts.books "Characters and plot are the exemplar components
of mundane fiction. I do not care to see them at all"
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:40:57 GMT
	<1992Nov10.021120.25720@trl.oz.au>
	<1992Nov10.162949.16292@nysernet.org> <1992Nov13.014039.3107@trl.oz.au>
	<1992Nov13.235034.28376@dazixco.ingr.com>
	<1992Nov17.205756.27098@trl.oz.au>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu's message of 18 Nov 92 00:49:45 GMT

In article <BxvzMy.FJ6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
> Jerusalem was annexed but the rest of the West Bank wasn't.  

This is not quite accurate.  In 1968 Israel annexed East Jerusalem
together with a significant portion of the surrounding West Bank,
reaching almost to Bethlehem in the south and to Ramallah in the north.
The Israelis insist on referring to this whole area now as "Jerusalem"
so that they can continue to make their argument about "not dividing the
city".  The great majority of the annexed area was never part of any
Jerusalem municipality, either in Israel itself, or during Jordanian
rule, or at any other time.

As if this were not enough, even the Rabin government now claims very
substantial *additional* portions of the West Bank that surround what
has already been annexed.  They continue to settle Jews there in large
numbers, and insist that they will never withdraw from those areas
either.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:22251 soc.culture.arabic:4977 soc.culture.lebanon:5095
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Date: 16 Nov 92 13:12:11 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Normand Arthur Beeline (nabeel@sce.carleton.ca) wrote:
[Nabeel Ghuzlan using a new alias ]
[.........................]
: I think it is time for the eternal poem:
: 
: *norm* sha^bon i_tha .doriba l.hi_thA'o biwajhihI
:            .sara.ka l.hi_thA'o: bi'aYi _thanbin o.drabO? *norm*
: 
: [I did not make this poem, bur this is the way I sign off.]
  Nabeel, for G-D's sake, don't quote this poem again. Anisa, you, and i,
belong to this "sha^ab", whatever we do and whereever we go our hearts are
still there. People suffering in the Arab countries are not strangers or 
alien to us, those are our families, our neighbours, and our friends. We 
(and not "They", because we all have our roots THERE) are far from being 
"created to be mounted" as you suggest. Now, if you are interested in S&M,
i suggest you suscribe to alt.sex.bondage. It's the best group for a "Jealous
Muslim" (as you describe yourself) who reads penthouse.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MEQ #23: Mufti meets Fuehrer [REVISED]
Date: 22 Nov 1992 05:17:41 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 7691@midway.uchicago.edu, tb13@ellis.uchicago.edu (leon joel gross) writes:
>In article <1ei7nuINNp1n@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>>      MEQ #23.  Der Fuehrer und der Grossmufti.

>>   The Grand Mufti first thanked the Feuhrer for the great honor of
>>   a personal reception.  He further wished to take the opportunity
>>   to express his gratitude on behalf of the entire Arab world...

>>   [Excerpts from a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin
>>   Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, on 28 November 1941.
>>   The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, a translator
>>   in the Foreign Minister's Secretariat.]
>>   [lots of stuff deleted]

>Part of the discussion of this involved the transation of the German to
>English.

>Does anybody know if
>	the Mufti understood German?
>	if the translator translated for him in to English or Arabic?
>	if there are equal ambiguities in Arabic?

Danny and I were unable to find answers to these questions.  The presence
of Schmidt (the senior translator in the Foreign Ministry) may indicate
that Hitler's words were translated into another language, but there
is no way to know which.  (Personally I suspect French.)  We checked
the personal memoirs of Schmidt and Ribbentrop (who was present) but
neither even mention the meeting.  It seems the event was of minor
importance to the Nazis.
 
I have a question for the Arabic speakers amongst us.  The Mufti made
a record of Hitler's words in his personal diary, in Arabic.  The
diary was never published and is not accessible to me.  All I have
seen is an English translation prepared by a pro-Zionist organisation
called Nation Associates.  In that translation, the critical sentence
appears thus:

B:  Germany has no ambitions in this area but cares only to 
    annihilate the power which produces the Jews. 

From these words and the surrounding sentences, it is clear that this
sentence is a derivative of the sentence which Schmidt rendered (subject
to the translation problem):

A:  Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region 
    would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under 
    British protection in Arab lands

The expression "the power which produces the Jews" is rather strange in
English.  I interpret it to mean "Britain" but I'm really not sure.
Is it possible that it is a too-literal translation of some Arabic idiom?

>Leon Gross

Brendan.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hsameti@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Hossein Sameti)
Subject: TALK: Islam and the Year 2000
Keywords: Talk, Islam
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:59:37 GMT


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>									<>
<>			   University of Waterloo			<>
<>			Muslims Students Association			<>
<>			 	 ( M S A )				<>
<>									<>
<>======================================================================<>
<>									<>
<>	Presents:	ISLAM AND THE YEAR 2000 			<>
<>									<>
<>	By:		Dr. SALIM  MANSOUR				<>
<>			Professor of Political Studies			<>
<>			University of Western Ontario			<>
<>									<>
<>	DATE:	Monday November 23rd 					<>
<>	TIME:	6:30 p.m.						<>
<>	PLACE:	Room 2083,PAS Building (Psychology), U of W		<>
<>									<>
<>======================================================================<>
<>									<>
<>			     All Are Welcome				<>
<>			   Refreshments Served				<>
<>									<>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

	Muslim Students Association,
	University of Waterloo
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The Messiah of Transfer
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:52:54 GMT

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

## The hailing of the Lubavitcher as the Messiah is completely rejected
## by the majority of religious Jews and by the religious establishment
## in Israel and abroad. Most people see it as a farce.
##
## Same for Ba-Gad, who belongs to a small party (3 members). 

#You really think you can wiggle out of this so easily?  

What a stupid, childish, and obnoxious reply. Arens the great, the
shining star of western humanism, cornering Keren, the in-the-flesh
manifestation of Israeli evil.

#You know very
#well that Chabad is an organization of considerable influence in Israel
#(and in the Jewish community in the US, too, for that matter).  Its
#leaders are courted and consulted by major Israeli politicians on a
#regular basis.

Politicians are politicians and they court whoever the hell will
vote for them. And, yes, there are Israelis and US Jews who are
attracted to this kind of silly hero worship and religious
fundamentalism, just like millions of Americans are attracted
to TV evangelists, like Pat Roberston, who is also courted and
consulted by US politicians.

Look, no country is perfect. If you spend your life scanning the
media for negative reports about a country, collect them and
post them, without any relation or connotation to anything, you
will make any country in the world look bad. Bear in mind that
the apparent effectivness of this technique is hampared by its
style and generality. 

-Danny Keren
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:10:26 GMT

In article <4457@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
|> 
|> Just a small point, but Israel did not take the Golan until towards
|> the end of the Six-Day War in 1967.  (BTW why do non-Jews insist on
|> calling it just the '1967 War'?  Is it because they are afraid to
|> admit to the fact that Israel won so convincingly in such a short
|> time?)  Israel would not have scaled the Heights had it not been for
|> the fact that Syria joined in the war and Israel had no choice but to
|> open a third front (after (a) Egypt & (b) Jordan) which happenned to
|> mean that Israel took control of the Golan.  Nobody in Israel was too
|> upset at Israel's taking control as the Heights command the Gallilee
|> (go up and take a look) and the Syrians had been shelling the
|> residents of the Gallilee continuously from 1948 until 1967 when
|> Israel at last wrested control from Syria.
> rothberg@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il |     V
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Israel is the strongest country in the M.E. and every one is at its mercy.
It took the Golan heights in six days because it wanted it so bad. Where does
one go from here?.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson)
Subject: Re: The Messiah of Transfer
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 01:25:13 GMT

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>In article <1992Nov18.151823.12255@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>>
>> The hailing of the Lubavitcher as the Messiah is completely rejected
>> by the majority of religious Jews and by the religious establishment
>> in Israel and abroad. Most people see it as a farce.
>> Same for Ba-Gad, who belongs to a small party (3 members). 

>You really think you can wiggle out of this so easily?  You know very
>well that Chabad is an organization of considerable influence in Israel
>(and in the Jewish community in the US, too, for that matter).  Its
>leaders are courted and consulted by major Israeli politicians on a
>regular basis.
>Yigal Arens

Contrary to what Mr. Arens statements might indicate, Chabad is
widely considered to be a bunch of eccentrics by the UCLA Jewish
community.
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:56:22 GMT

In article <Nov20.175807.52756@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:

>	He said Hezbollah was among other Lebanese factions fighting the
>Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. ``This is a legitimate right for
>every citizen in any country,'' he said.
>	``If the French people had the right to resist the Nazi occupation,
>why it is not the right of the Lebanese to resist the Israelis?''
>Khaddam said.

	Funny, they have a right to resist Israel, which occupieds 
a small strip of Lebenon, but not to resist Syria, which Occupies the
vast majority of Lebenon.  
	Geoff
-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
From: dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 1992 06:38:57 GMT
Organization: University of California Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov23.053913.11954@cs.ucla.edu>, steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson) writes:
|> dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves) writes:
|> 
|> >The decision was not his to make.  If his conscience is clear because
|> >he felt he did the right thing, this does nothing to change the fact
|> >that he commited treason and compromised the security of the United 
|> >States.  As to his punishment: in sensible countries, traitors
|> >are executed.
|> >dan
|> 
|> I don't know (or care) about the details of the Pollard case, but I
|> highly suspect that he was not convicted of treason as treason is
|> quite carefully specified in the US Constitution.
|> 
|> From the US Constitution, Article III, Section 3
|> 
|> 	Article III
|> 	Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist 
|> 	only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their 
|> 	enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be 
|> 	convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses 
|> 	to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
|> 
|> Cheers,
|> Steve
|> -- 
|> =========================================================================
|> Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
|> steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
|> =========================================================================

I stand corrected and i appologize for posting my ignorance.

dan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Johnathan Pollard
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:10:06 GMT

In the October 31, 1992 issue of the Jerusalem Post, a former analyst at the
National Security Agency during named Bruce Brill (who isn't Jewish)  wrote
an article relating to the discussion of Pollard's passing of information
to Israel.  Here are the relevant paragraphs:

"While working at the Agency as an Arabic traffic analyst in the early 1970s, 
I learned of the planned October 6, 1973, invasion of Israel by Syria and
Egypt - 30 hours before the US notified Israel.  

Upper Echelon Agency officials knew of the planned attack hours, if not days,
prior to that.  Not passing that vital information along in time resulted in 
the unnecessary deaths and maiming of thousands of young Israelis."

I naturally assumed that Israel, America's publicly declared friend, would 
have been notified immediately through proper channels about the imminent 
attack on October 6, 1973.  Now I live haunted by the possibility that,
somehow, I could have discovered that the intelligence was not being forwarded,
got it to the Israelis and therby saved some measure of the anguish that became
known as the Yom Kippur War.

Yet I didn't, and agonize over it each Yom Kippur.  I was a loyal American 
military intelligence analyst who contributed towards Israel's planned demise.
I received my honorable discharge from the US Army and am a free man; 
Johnathan Pollard, by contrast, is still in prison."

When lives are at stake, a situation possible had Israel not been informed
of Iraq's capabilites, formalities become meaningless.  Bruce Brill, and
Johnathan Pollard, should have done the same for any country which was being
threatened and not being told of it.  However, since that country happened
to be Israel, it once again becomes a terrible crime.

Ed.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Date: 24 Nov 1992 03:30:49 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 2399@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1epoh6INN5ps@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

># In article 10417@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
 
># >To add to the humor, they also have no apparent desire to resist the
># >Arab terrorists who have destroyed their country and whos attacks on
># >Israeli civilians are the only reason Israel ever came in to begin with.

># Speaking of humour, nearly ten years after the Israeli principals 
># publically acknowledged the real purpose behind the 1982 invasion,
># some brave souls are still stoically holding on to the original
># public pronouncements.  Unbelievable, but true.

># I'm running short of time.  Practically any book on the 1982 war will
># set you straight on why Israel did it.  Try Rabinovich, Schiff, etc..

>	Brendam, you can say anything you want about "humor" or
>"unbelievable".  However, if you talk to the victims of those attacks
>you will be forced to come to the conclusion that either the original
>pronouncements were at least the major reason behind the invasion, or
>Israeli politicians were naive in not taking them into account (which
>means that Likud would have been voted out of office specifically for
>not addressing the reasons behind the original pronouncements had
>there not been an invasion for any reason).

There is only one David 'makowsky?'.  Using the force of Pure Logic
alone, he has swept aside an entire library shelf written by mere
historians.  Who needs to consult a book when the great 'makowsky?'
is nearby?

If anyone wants to take up the topic in a serious manner I will 
respond likewise (within time constraints).  Otherwise, no way.

>makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MEQ #23: Mufti meets Fuehrer (first in Berlin, now in the Hell!)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 08:09:31 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: dimebox.cs.utexas.edu

 tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
||    [*] "Vernichtung des ...Judentums" in the German original.
||    [Akten zur D. Aus. Pol. 1918-1945, Ser. D, XIII/2, p718]
||    This phrase can reasonably be translated "annihilation of the
||    Jews" as here, but weaker interpretations are possible.
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    Only a blunt antisemite and/or a nazi would have the guts to 
>    put such a theory on the net.

	Manfredo, I think your "early alarms" fired when you read "weaker
	interpretations are possible" (a poor choice of words, not reflecting
	well what the writer meant to express - from what I know having
	followed the discussion in detail)

	Your sentiments are ok, but you "missed the boat", I think.

	enough said...
-- 
  werner@cs.utexas.edu |  ..!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner | werner@UTXVM.bitnet

              "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:22209 soc.culture.german:8297
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:28:20 GMT


In article <1992Nov13.012943.2921@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>Israel is in South Lebanon to secure the waters from South Lebanon and divert
>it into Israel. Israel took the Golan Heights from Syria in the name of security
>again only to secure the waters of the Jordan river. As long as they stay there
>they wil have hostility from the Lebanese who are defending the occupation of
>their land by Israel.

Israel occupied the Golan Hieghts only after Syria joined Egypt in a war against
Israel in 1967. 



>A.Faris


Naftaly

---
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301