From: robert@informix.com (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Male bashing in other newsgroups
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:14:56 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

yali@bnrca (Yawar Ali) writes:



>In article <1992Sep10.135825.8009@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten) writes:

>|> As the person who posted the list in the first place, let me
>|> put it into perspective.
>|> 
>|> 1)  It is a one way thing.  That is what bothers me.  I really feel
>|>     that women make up lists of these things that men (all men 
>|>     supposedly) are guilty of and we are supposed to enjoy a good
>|>     laugh at our expense.  Well Try to turn it around and see how
>|>     much jolly laughter the woman have when we complain.  I
>|>     doubt that very much.
>|>

>You're missing the point: 

	Actually, no, the discussion up to now has not involved this point,
so I wasn't missing it.  The subject under conversation is whether we should
consider humor to be harmless.

>the item you posted is PRECISELY an example
>of women 'turning around' towards men the same kind of sexist and
>misogynistic characterizations that are so prevalent in society,
>the media, and, yes, on soc.men. So it is not a "one way thing".
>Your reaction seems to indicate that you don't find this very amusing.

	I'm sorry, but you'll have to give an example of a similar list posted
on soc.men.  The misogynistic characterizations in the form of "humor" that
you're referring to have been driven underground, where they still exist,
whereas this particular list can be safely passed around in public.  The
environment has changed, making passing around this list as wrong as passing
around the opposite list might have been 20 years ago.
	At my office, a woman has a sign on her office that says "Relax!
There's a *woman* on the job!"  An opposite sign at work might get me fired.
Do you somehow fail to see the "one-way"ness of this situation?

>Fine. Your arguments against this practice would have more credibility
>if they denounced ALL forms of <substitute-your-favorite-group>-bashing,
>not just put-down humor directed at men by women. 

	Oh, you misunderstand me, plus, of course, you have made some
assumptions based on what I haven't said, a kind of logic sure to foul you
up.  Let me make my feelings clear:

	Generally, an action should be permissable for both of two arbitrary
groups, or it should be permissable for neither.  Especially so, if the action
can be seen as an attack by one group upon the other (note that my argument 
with the previous poster is whether jokes should be seen as an attack; you
apparently agree with me on this, since you have forwarded the concept of the
"misogyny" of jokes about women).
	In the current environment, I would be both socially and, in some
situations, potentially legally censured for transmitting such a list about 
women, whereas there appears to be social and there definitely is legal 
support for the transmittal of this list about men.  This situation is 
inherently wrong.

	Therefore, you can put me down as supporting jokes of this sort, both
for the humorous aspects and because of my support of freedom of speech, as
long as both groups are free to use this form of humor.  You can put me down
as against both groups using this form of humor if one group is to be
prevented, by either legal or social censure, from using this form of humor.
I don't care a whit which group is being unfairly censured; if one group is
being unfairly censured I think it should stop.


	Incidentally, if I were to use the same form of logic on you that you
have used on me, I would have to say "Your arguments for this practice 
would have more credibility if they supported ALL forms of
<substitute-your-favorite-group>-bashing, not just put-down humor directed at
men by women".  You did not actually say anywhere whether you disapprove of
this list in the same way that you apparently disapprove of the "sexist and
misogynistic characterizations" etc., in the same way that I did not say I
disapprove of the "sexist etc" characterizations of women.
	If you want to know how someone feels about a topic, you should ask
them, rather than make assumptions based on what they haven't said.

Robert C.
-- 
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Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
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Xref: sparky soc.men:16076 soc.women:16260 alt.child-support:3079