From: ko@cns.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Kurdish Autonimous Region
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:31:23 GMT
Organization: UMIST, Manchester, England.

madjdsad@phakt.usc.edu (Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi) writes:

>In soc.culture.turkish KA506@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Kadir AYDIN) writes:

>>Zagros Madja-Sadjani writes;

>>>The Kurdish Population is 26,000,000+

>>>Kurds/Turkey: 12,000,000+

>>Totally wrong. Can you give me referances for this number? Acording to
>>PCGLOBE INC, 1991, USA, the Kurdish population in Turkiye is 11%. The
>>population of Turkiye is 57,000,000 and according to this source the
>>number of Kurds in Turkiye is 6,270,000. It is half of your number.

>>Regards,

>>Kadir AYDIN
>>University of Liverpool,
>>ENGLAND/UK

>Dear Sir, don't say I am totally wrong unless you read a number of sources.
>Here are some more for you to chew your brains out on:


>(1) The Economist, June 24, 1989, p. 68 "The State that Never Was"
>    Kurds in Turkey -- 10 million

>(2) New York Times International November 3, 1989 "For Turkey and Kurds,
>    Fragile Reconciliation"  
>    Kurds in Turkey number 8 to 10 million

>(3) Humanitas, number 1 (1989) "A Divided and Endangered People" 
>    Kurds in Turkey number 11 million

>(4) San Francisco Examiner, September 7, 1988 "Kurds link illness to poison
>    gas" -- 10 million Kurds

>(5) The New York Times September 7, 1988."Turkey Moves out 2,000 Iraqi Kurds:
>    Transfer to Iran Puts Fate of Other Refugees in Doubt"  
>    The Kurds in Turkey number 8 million

>(6) New Statesman and Society, October 20, 1989. "Torch of Freedom" 
>    Kurds number about 19% of the population of Turkey. i.e. about 11.5 million.

>(7) The Times of London, June 16, 1989 "KURDISH SOLUTIONS" Kurds in Turkey 
>    number 10 million

>(8) Sanity, November 1988 "Halabja and after" Kurds in Turkey, 8 million

>Now if we throw in the 1 to 2 MILLION Kurds who have fled across the border
>to Turkey from Iraq in the last two years, plus figure in a minor rise in
>population we will come to the following figures : 9.2 - 13.8 million Kurds.

>Now show me eight more sources to back up YOUR claims.

If you know *anything* about what is going on this planet, 
I'll write my programs in COBOL from now on. 

If there were 1-2 m Kurds still in this side of the border
then Kurds in Iraq would be less then halved. But it is not,
in your figure. Because, while you were in Jupiter, there
have been some hundreds of UN resolutions, "operation provide 
comfort"s, and many many other things, and that they returned back.
By they I mean the majority, and still tens of thousands of
Iraqi citizens are in  Turkiye. (but virtually none in the West)

So even though we take the Western sourses we have an altogether 
9 million Kurds in Turkey. Most of these do not even speak
Kurdish, and a great many consider themselves Turkish before
anything.

Now subtract some more millions from your list, because half of
this 9 million does not live in "Kurdistan", but in the regions
that you considered them diasphora, i.e. western towns of Turkiye.

Also the western sources have already made their population growth
extrapolations in determining those already exagerated numbers.

So the substraction from the Turkish data is
       3m the number of Kurds that you counted twice in Iraq and Turkiye
     4.5m the number of Kurds that you counted twice in "Kurdsitan" and outside
    -------
     7.5m the-Zagros-ignorance factor *for Turkiye only*

That is what I can see at first moment. Maybe similar errors for other countries.
So the number of Kurds, including those who do not consider themselves Kurds
but considered by pro-Kurdish sources to be, is much less than 20m in general.


                            * * * * *


Please discuss the 60m Turks without their country that are perhaps to be 
united in a "Turan" together with the 100+m rest of the 
Turks, as opposed to 20m Kurds in a
"Kurdistan". Please do not use the "but you are evil we are good - see 
The Economist, der Spiegel, etc" arguments in doing so. 

Also do not use the "but we are oppressed" argument, you do 
not know what is to be *really* oppressed in the
hands of muslim-hating, anti-Turkish, massacre-happy, chauvenisms from 
Ivan to Stalin, from Antranik to Mao, from Sampson to Zhivkov, from Adriatic
Sea to the Wall of China, for hundreds of years of non-Turkish rule.

>"The Kurds have no friends."

Those who respect other ideas and use basic reasoning have plenty.

>Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi
>Azadi Kurdistan

Kutluk
Azadi "Turan"


ps: I am curious how many western media sources have
mentioned the 60m oppressed Turks as a whole, while
everyday they chew the greater Kurdistan story ?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet