From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Religious Authority
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:21:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep14.203338.8118
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

[I have spelled out in full several originally abbreviated forms of
"Universal House of Justice." --rdt]

In article <1992Sep12.035048.2042@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
Steven.Kolins@lambada.oit.unc.edu writes:

>	God certainly has the right to declare the sacrifice of
>children to all mankind.  "He doeth whatever He willeth." However to
>declare that this is something God would do is merely to tilt the
>argument with horror, even if the point is to examine cultural short
>sightedness, (the idea that God wouldn't offend MY sensibilities
>because they are correct.) God determines the form of His authority in
>the world.  And this authority carries a great burden - to joke about
>abuse and horror on this point is to poke fun at the lamed and
>afflicted.  Ethical considerations of power are just a dim reflection
>of the things needing consideration at this level.

Remember where this argument is coming from.  I'm not sure what the
first poster had in mind, but the obvious relevance is to the Baha'i
claims that homosexuality is immoral and to the Baha'i refusal to
allow women in the Universal House of Justice.  [The source of the
cited "claims" and "refusals" is the Baha'i Writings, not individual
Baha'is. --rdt]

I wasn't joking about "abuse and horror".  What _is_ "abuse and
horror"?  You call these things horrific because you firmly believe
they are wrong and you feel revulsion towards them.  But if God truly
demands them, they're _not_ wrong; your feelings of horror and
revulsion are misplaced.

I can equally well say that you're "joking about abuse and horror"
when you try to tell me that God mandates that women be banned from
the Universal House of Justice.  Suggesting God would discriminate is
far from funny.

And of course, the "fruits" test utterly fails here.  I see the Baha'i
faith as producing bad fruits: it says homosexuality is wrong and it
prohibits women in the Universal House of Justice.  Yet whenever I
point this out, Baha'is reply by saying that since they're from God,
they cannot be bad fruits.

It is important to be consistent.  If you pointed to child sacrifices
as "bad fruits" of (say) the Canaanites, you would not accept a reply
which denies that child sacrifices are bad fruits.  Indeed, such a
standard is useless; by it, no religion can be said to produce bad
fruits.  If "bad fruits" is to have any meaning at all, this standard
must not be used; and in that case, I must state that the Baha'i faith
has plenty of "bad fruits".

>	Until that determination is made, one must consider the law in
>question, and if it seems distasteful to oneself, the consequences of
>disobedience.  By this i do not mean any divine chastisement
>(lightening from the blue sky...)  I mean the undermining effect, the
>disunity ( look at Somolia.)  [Which is in fact the chastisement of
>God - our own horror upon ourselves.]

Remember that disagreement with _any_ widely accepted law will cause
disunity.  This does not depend on if the law is a good or bad law.
If I were to refuse to participate in a child-sacrificing ceremony in
a society where it was considered my duty, there would certainly be
much disunity.  My relatives might hate me.  I might find it hard to
get a job, I might find merchants refusing to sell to "that evil
religious heretic", etc.  Yet, though my refusal would result in
disunity, that disunity would be the fault of the rest of society
refusing to accept a "heretic".  It would not be my fault, and it
would certainly not mean there is anything wrong with the idea.

What disunity would result from allowing women into the Universal
House of Justice that is not caused by the refusal of other Baha'is to
accept their presence there?

--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)