HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgotobed@lpl.arizona.edu (Joe Gotobed x4549)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Inquiry for facts on Horstooth Accident
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:28:50 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.

In article <106480250@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> byrnes@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Byrnes) writes:
>The only death this year was some college student who was "a good athlete".
>He was climbing Arthurs Rock (a disgusting, rotting piece of granite that's 
>not worth climbing) on the west side of Horsetooth Reservoir.  He fell (or 
>more likely a hold broke), his piece pulled (or the rock broke) and hit his 
>head and died a short time later.

I think I read about this in the Breckenridge newspaper (~Aug 30??). As
I recall the story, his belay reported *five* peices zippered out in
this incident.  More info would be useful.

Joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Gotobed                        Internet       (joe@arizona.edu)
Network & Systems Manager          SPAN                 LOONEY::JSG
Lunar and Planetary Laboratory     University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721  (602) 621-4549
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
From: marks@ssdevo.enet.dec.com (Randy Marks)
Subject: Re: Bivvy Sacs
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Colorado Springs
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:43:48 GMT


In article <1992Aug11.154115.6231@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, bohack@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (edward.e.harstead) writes...
>The REI bivy sac is the zip-up sleeping bag type (not a tent).  I
>did use it on a warm July night last summer.  It was a bit
>uncomfortable inside, but bearable.  But I rarely backpack in the
>hot bug season.  On cooler nights it is just fine.  
> 
>After the rain soaked my Therma-rest one night, I've thought about
>squeezing it inside the bivy sac.  Has anyone tried this, and does
>it work?

Indeed, pads work great inside the REI bivy bag.
I use this arrangement exclusively.
	Randy Marks
(UUCP)	                {decvax,ucbvax,allegra}!decwrl!ssdevo.enet!marks
(INTERNET)              marks@ssdevo.enet.dec.com
(domain-based INTERNET) marks%ssdevo.enet@decwrl.dec.com
..........................................................................
	"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe
	while the legislature is in session."
..........................................................................
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Attention read this: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 04:47:30 GMT

The Rescue Ranger in Yosemite (yes Hal, John, but we were discussing
summit register business) has asked for any information regarding
this accident.  If YOU have any direct information (and I have sent email
to the one post which directly referred to this), please send email.
The Ranger is planning a 3-wk vacation in a day, and any later referals
will be referred to a subordinate.  He would like info Before he leaves.

I have other details of this accident, but we do not wish to bias any
witnesses about this accident which is still under investigation.
A backcountry Ranger was present shortly before and shortly after
the accident, but critical details are lacking.

If you are a witness, send email, now.  I will send you a phone number.

Following this post will be a Subject line "Known Details" do not read
this post if you think you have witnessed said accident.  Skip that article,
it can bias critical memories.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: mlord@bmers63.bnr.ca (Mark Lord)
Subject: Re: CNN has brief segment of Brewer's Ledge Treadwall
Organization: BNR, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 19:39:22 GMT

In article <eric.713814654@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) writes:
>
>...  Here in Seattle, all the hardcore mountaineers work out in their
>new patented Scree Tumblers (tm), which are basically big refrigerated
>revolving drums full of tumbling talus and ice chunklets.  Deluxe models
>douse the climber with wind-driven rain and snow and are pressure regulated
>to simulate the effects of altitude.  I should add that cairn-kicking is
>strictly prohibited inside these devices.

Just the thing to warm up on for those overhanging Scottish Grade VI gullies.
From: kbittner@.oracle.com (Kurt Bittner)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Flashbulbs (was: Public Perceptions)
Keywords: disposable camera
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:03:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: oracle.1992Aug14.150351.19804
Organization: Oracle Corp., Redwood Shores CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <14033@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>In article <1992Aug11.125914.25284@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> nelsonm@erc1.ecn.purdue.edu (Mark J Nelson) writes:
>|>
>|Regarding single-use cameras:
>|>
>|>There are three (I think) models:  a normal "damn I forgot the camera
>|>but still want to take pictures of the kids" version, a panoramic
>|>version that shoots 3x10's instead of 3x5's, and one that is encased
>|>in plastic and is weather and waterproof to a certain (shallow) depth.
>
>I'm curious about the third variety.  [text deleted] How's the 
>quality of these cameras.

Quite good.  I've used them on several river and sea kayaking trips and have
been very satisfied with the results.  They won't win you any photo contests,
but are nice for recording details of the trip.  I have a dry bag for my SLR,
but don't plan on using it anymore - the waterproof disposables are good
enough.

Kurt Bittner       ]"It is not Nature-as-Chaos which threatens us, but the 
kbittner@oracle.com] State's presumption that it has created order."-Gary Snyder
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey)
Subject: Re: questions on other grade systems
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:55:08 GMT

Mort Sez:

|> 
|> 4) PG, R, X, S, VS - I think these have gotten more popular than you realize.
|>            Erickson back in 1980 used " ", "R", "X" to define good pro, 
|>            chance of injury, likely serious injury / death, respectively.
|>            More recently Rossiter (and Van Horn at Shelf Rd.) have used S
|>            and VS to mean Serious and Very Serious (I think).  All of these
|>            are "protection" or "danger" ratings.  They have nothing to do
|>            with difficulty.  I like this system.
|> 

Me too, especially it forces parental superivision for more "adult" routes...

Bruce Bailey (Dr. OW)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: markd@cup.hp.com (Mark_Donohoe)
Subject: Re: shasta
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 19:16:08 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

rogerl@Ingres.COM (Roger Leuthner) writes:
: In article <170to2INN927@agate.berkeley.edu> stanford@spark (Adam Stanford) writes:
: >I'm interested in climbing Mt. Shasta, sometime next month.  My
: >experience is limited to a lot of trail backpacking trips, and
: >recommend a route to the top which is (relatively) easy, or an
: >organization which guides trips to the top?
: 
: I've personally only been on the north/east slope of the mountain, and the
: snow/ice climbing itself is not difficult or particularly dangerous.  I
: DON'T recommend doing the north side, though.  It is an extremely trying
: approach, with some of the most rugged landscape I've ever seen.  Huge
: volcanic (duh) boulders jumbled together with knarly tree/bushes growing
: in any space dirt has accumulated.  I can't overemphasize the difficulty here.
I suppose, it doesn't seem any harder than many of the Sierra routes that
entail an hour or more of scree/boulder hopping.  But, neither are cake
walks and I suppose would qualify as difficult hiking.

: However, while I was doing this route my brother was doing the standard
: route, which is on the south.  Crampons and at least a single ice tool
: are required.  It's apparently a very popular route, so you should be able
: to find it with no problem.

The standard route is called avalanche gulch.  I has the only snow on
the S. side at this time....and is really a finger of snow...get there
fast!  Look for a feature called the red banks...the route goes up to
them, then through them or around the right side.  The local report
mentioned rockfall in the afternoon...So I would suggest a early start
(4am?).  The standard thing to do is to get to helen lake (not really
a lake, more like a depression) on the 1st day.  With an early start,
you can make the summit and get back down by about noon, (to the
lake).  YOU WILL NEED an ICE AXE, Crampons AND a HELMET.  Expect a real slog
on the upper mountain, as there may be no snow...and volcanic pumice is like
walking through sand.

I was at the mountain a few weeks ago and that was the scoop...we were
on the N.  Side on a glacier.

: He told me that there is at least one spot where the exposure is 
: pretty serious.  

I suppose....wasn't when I did that route about 5 years ago.

: There's a shop where you can rent
: ice gear and probably pick up a map and some pointers nearby (it is on the
: way to the ski area).

The shop is called the 5th Season, a great shop and people.  They can provide
guide services if you think you need them.  They also have a 24hr number
(sorry don't have it handy) for conditions on the moutain.  There is also a
great book out, which I'm sure the shop has...have seen it at other mtn.
stores as well.  The book covers the whole mtn. with hiking, skiing and 
climbing routes and a great map.

Watch for the wind it can be REALLY bad on the mountain (I mean strong
enough to lift you up!).

Hope this helps and that you have a good safe trip...hope you summit!


-- 
Mark Donohoe (markd@cup.hp.com)
From: bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us (Bob Pasker)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: emergency techniques
Date: 22 Aug 92 09:40:11 PDT
Organization: Disorganized Organization

In article <BtE2pu.Iz8.2@cs.cmu.edu>, cline+@cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline) writes:
> In article <1992Aug21.213427.6180@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> bobh@minaret.hwr.arizona.edu (Bob Harrington) writes:
>>IMHO, I think hip belays should go the way of Goldline ropes. Sure, they
>>were the safest thing going, but belay devices are in general much more
>>reliable....
> Where do you get the information that body belays are less reliable
> than device belays?  

good question: bobh's probably providing a subjective answer.

there are some people who i would not trust to belay me with a ratcheted
winch off a grand piano, let alone with a sticht plate and body weight.  
there are others whose attention to detail is so great that if they said 
they were going to belay me with their bare hands, i would think that 
they knew what they're doing.

the point is that the success of a belay (i.e. not dying) is based upon
many more factors besides what technology (or lack thereof) is used to
provide friction on the rope.  for example, if i were teaching a 15 year
old to belay, i would have him use a friction device; with royal robbins, 
i figure he'd probably done a few hip belays in his time and let him do 
his thing.

the other question, of course, is one of time.  a hip belay is easy and 
quick to set up/tear down and speed counts, especially on a long climb
or with 500 feet to go before nightfall. 

its not the technology being used, necessarily, but who is using it and how.

-- 
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us 
--
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: steve@neopath.wa.com (Steve Faull)
Subject: Winki-dinki wall
Keywords: Winki-dinki Index,WA
Organization: NeoPath
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:41:14 GMT


Any Index, Washington climbers out there?  Here's one for you.  I was
up at Index last weekend and came across a new (new to me) wall that
someone had scrubed and bolted.  I would best describe its location by
saying it was above the Great Northern Slab (in the trees) and just
left of the Dihedral Wall.  My buddy and I checked it out and found
a couple of nice routes in the 9ish range.  I asked around to find
some information about the area, but could only find a guy who said
he thought it was called the Winki-dinki wall.  If someone out there
has some info. (ratings, FAs, personal opinions) I would like to hear
from you.

Steve Faull
NeoPath Inc.
steve@venus.neopath.wa.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Flashbulbs (was: Public Perceptions)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:37:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.180917.1283@hpcvca.cv.hp.com>,
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>teshima@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (A. Lani Teshima) writes:
>:
>: If you would like to take panoramic photos on your hike, but feel
>: uneasy about using single-use cameras, I would suggest the RE-USABLE
>: panoramic cameras.
>
>What is reusable about these cameras?  Do you mean that you (personally/
>easily) can replace the film?
>
>Scott Linn
>scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com

It has been reported that the film developer ships the empties back
to Kodak which then either reloads them or salvages as many of the
parts as they can.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Known details of Cathedral accident (additions/changes) to Morton
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 18:13:07 GMT







If you have first hand knowledge of this accident,

	DO NOT READ THIS POST.

Send email immediately for a phone # in Yosemite.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya










This control char is intentional.


What is known.
The party in question ("experienced" man and "inexperienced" woman)
were questioned just before the accident by a backcountry ranger (GC, a
good climber in his own right) who just happened to near Budd Lake.
The ranger spoke soon after to a party for descended from the route and
found their bodies.

It is known that the man had previously climbed the route.

"Experienced:" the man had stated he could climb 5.11 to the ranger.

The Anchor consisted of a Friend (probably a #2) and a TCU (size not
mentioned in conversation).  Both pieces were intact.
The anchor was equalized.

The follower had two pieces of pro removed (cleaned) but no other pieces
on the 40-50 ft. of rope between climber and belayer.
This is about the only detailed thing different from John [Morton]'s
forwarded account.  I think they said the two removed pieces were active type
pro.

It is assumed that not much additional rope was paid out during fall.

It is suspected that they fell around the 3-4 pitch "chimney" pitch.
It did not occur on the first pitch.

I don't think I've forgotten anything (didn't take notes, but I had to remember
to add the equalization.

So question: would YOU call this equipment failure or human error?

This investigation is still pending.  If you have other questions, you can
send them.  I cannot guarantee an answer.  If you have any knowledge,
Yosemite SAR wants to talk to you about this.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ted@nmsu.edu (Ted Dunning)
Subject: Re: emergency techniques (was Re: Cathedral Pk. Accident, Yosemite)
Reply-To: ted@nmsu.edu
Organization: Computing Research Lab
	<LIZB.92Aug19111201@klosters.ai.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug19.181901.29163@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:55:38 GMT


In article <1992Aug19.181901.29163@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt) writes:


   >Yes.  And speaking of which, the munter hitch - which I would always
   >choose over a hip belay - has been significantly absent from this
   >thread of discussion.  Any comments about the relative merits of these
   >two techniques?
   >
   >Liz Bradley 
   >MIT AI Lab
   >

   This has been pretty well hashed over in the past. 
   Two words: rope twist. Munter has it, hip don't.


most rope twist can be avoided with the munter hitch if you take the
effort and know how.

--

There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.
	Larry Wall
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Re: What happened to REI?
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:28:11 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Aug11.234112.24870@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <Aug10.161314.51024@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>>In article <106480248@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM
>(Duane Jacobson) writes:
>>>In a way, these managers are just covering their hind ends.
>>>they worked at REI for 5 or 10 years and were content with no growth
>>>and flat sales?
>>
>>Well, given the current economic climate, no growth and flat sales
>>represents a stellar performance -- everyone else is downsizing
>>and suffering falling sales.
>>
>>Isn't it funny how equilibrium gets no respect in our culture?  What's
>>wrong with no growth and flat sales?
>
>Well turn the question around.
>How many companies are you willing to invest a sizeable portion of your
>money (let's say $10K) and be willing to accept no-growth?  (I except the
>old Bell System).  Probably very few.

Well, if I can get a good steady dividend based on profits, without
growth, I'm content.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: ahdlm@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Bozeman info wanted
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:20:38 GMT
Reply-To: ahdlm@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University

In article <revillot-100892145550@mm-mac19.mse.uiuc.edu>, revillot@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Judy Tolliver) writes:
>Last Spring, I requested this same sort of information about Placerville,
>California and got some very helpful responses.  The result was that I did
>go out there to check it out and decided that it was not the place for me.
>
>In a nutshell, my husband has a bookstore on the campus of U Illinois in
>Urbana.  After 15+ years of living among corn and beans, we would like to
>relocate somewhere closer to some wilderness "out west," yet not starve to
>death.  Unfortunately, most towns we'd like to live in (Ouray, Durango,
>Madison, etc.) either already have good bookstores or do not have the
>business climate that would support one.  Looking for another place has now
>become something of a hobby.   For reference, we'd like to run a bookstore
>along the lines of Tattered Cover (Denver), Cody's (Berkeley), Elliot Bay
>(Seattle), but on a much smaller scale.  The current town we're looking
>into is Bozeman, Montana.
>
>I'd appreciate any comments on Bozeman or suggestions of other "good" towns
>that could use another bookstore.
>
>Thanks!
>
>               Judy Tolliver


Judy,

	Hello!  I saw your post and will try to help.  The Sports Cove is an
excellent place to contact for information about climbing in the area.  I live
in Bozeman and rent from an avid climber and he recommended this store for
information.  Their address is 407 W. Main, Bozeman, MT  59715  or if you
prefer to call - (406) 585-9926.  If you would care for more information, you
may write Curt Shirer, P.O. Box 274 Gallatin Gateway, MT  59730-0274.  Curt
will help you find what you are looking for.  I work in the p.e. dept. and
there is access to a climbing wall for off season training.  Curt could help
with information that as well.  Hope this helps!  Laurel
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: clv2m@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Charles Viles)
Subject: Re: glacier goggles with glasses 
Organization: University of Virginia Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:26:09 GMT

In article <Bsrn1p.Jrr@news.larc.nasa.gov>, wawood@ab29.larc.nasa.gov (William A. Wood) writes:
> A question for the climbers with lug-soled boots:
> What type of eye protection (UV etc.) do most people wear
> who also wear prescription glasses while on glaciers/snow
> at moderate altitudes ( <15 000 ft.) ?
> 
> Are prescription glacier glasses (expensive) the only option?

On Denali in '88 I simply taped my glacier goggles and my prescription
glasses together at the bridge, goggles on the inside, glasses on the 
outside. It took me a little while to get used to the slightly lengthened
distance between eyes and glasses, but it worked very well. Best of all,
it was cheap. 

This is not to say that I wouldn't have preferred prescription goggles, 
but if you don't get out on a glacier that often, it is certainly viable

Charlie
From: Paul.Williams@brunel.ac.uk (Paul M Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Climbing, Indoor/Outdoor/Bouldering Near London
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:01:30 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

martyg@Ingres.COM (Marty Garrison) writes:
: 
: I'm soon transfering to London for an extended stay. While having
: climbed in Briton in the late 70's I really can't remember specifics
: of nearby locations to London. Any references? I remember climbing
: indoors at a sport center? and some local places called high rocks
: or some such. Any help appreciated.
: 
: Marty
 
 High Rocks, Harrisons and Boules, are sandstone outcrops near Tunbridge Wells in Kent or East Sussex (can't remember which). Top ropping or soloing only here, the rock is too soft to use leader gear and theres nothing over 40 ft anyway.

Theres no other outdoor climbing around the London area. Nearest is Swanage (1-1.5 Hr away), Avon Gorge (2Hr)(and new guide just published), Wye Valley (2.5Hr), or the Peak 
Distrct (2.5Hr).

As for clinbing walls:
Brunel University - Very good
Mile End - Very Good
Picketts Lock - Ok
Sobell Sports Centre - Ok (only real leading wall in London)
Phazels Wood (s?) - Alright, outdoors, bit limited, good for beginners

And if you fancy a bit of a drive St Warbergs in Bristol is well worth a visit, IMO better than the foundry in Sheffield (bet that gets some flames).

I hope this has been usefull, I may see you at Brunel Marty.

Paul
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: marginal pro
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:27:49 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

>...The marginal piece popped out... In the mean time my belayer had moved off to
>one side so that he could take a picture of me climbing. When the bottom
>marginal piece popped out, that gave the rope a considerable amount of 
>slack. As a consequence I fell about 10-15 feet and managed to place a huge 
>bruise on my right thigh. (I couldnt sleep on that side for several days)
>
>So much for my experience with marginal protection... 
>What does everyone else think? 

I value marginal pro ever since, when I was a beginning leader, on my first
leader fall, the two pieces that I thought were 'bomber' pulled, while the
#2 chouinard stopper that was half in/half out of a piton scar, held, and
saved me from a probable ground fall.

However, today I would probably (hopefully!) not consider the two pieces that 
pulled "bomber". Nevertheless, I would probably today still consider the
stopper to be virtually useless, had it not been for the fall that taught me
that such pieces can sometimes be better than they seem.

greg
Newsgroups: rec.climbing