From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:18:58 GMT

In <1if3bdINNpjp@shelley.u.washington.edu> sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu 
(Eric Sieferman) writes:

>In article <1993Jan5.223146.29327@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca 
(Malcolm Lee) writes:
>>
>>But we can have eternal life and the knowledge of good and evil.

>I already have knowledge of good and evil, but I have never had
>a clear explanation what xtians mean by "eternal life", other
>than a circular description of "being with god".  If you are
>looking for a career in religious salesmanship, try to
>offer items of value to prospective customers.

>>Sure, when God placed the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the Garden, 
HE
>>knew that the people would partake of it and be condemned to death as well 
as 
>>all the generations that followed them.  GOD knew this!  

>According to the tale, God not only knew it, he could have stopped
>it, but chose not to.  The resulting death and suffering is on
>his hands, or would be if he really existed.

>>   That is why He provided a plan for salvation through His one and only Son,
>>Jesus Christ.

>Fine.  First, he creates imperfect beings and punishes them
>for being imperfect.  Then, he arranges to have a Jewish carpenter
>executed, and claims that this cancels his original error.
>What a jerk!

>>We are living in the age of grace whereby we may be saved IF we
>>choose to follow Jesus.

>I chose to follow Jesus several years ago, so I guess that 
>I am saved.  

>>There's nothing more to it than that.  

>Before he was hanged, Westley Allen Dodd claimed to have 
>accepted Jesus as his savior, so we can assume that he
>will have eternal life.  His young victims, murdered at
>age 4 or so, never had the chance to accept Jesus,
>so they probably don't have eternal life.

>>    Maybe I'm being too simplistic.

>You are.

>>I don't post too often but I am a firm
>>believer and I just couldn't stand by silent in admidst this debate.

>There is no debate.  You are posting the same old tired 
>xtian drivel in alt.atheist, a serious breach of manners.

>>I don't
>>mean to flame anyone.

>Right.  You're just telling us that we are going to suffer
>eternal torment if we don't accept your interpretation
>of an ancient fairy tale.

>>After all, Jesus came into this world to save not to
>>condemn.

>Your NT must be different than mine.  In mine, J and his gang
>did quite a bit of condemning.

>>And in His likeness, I would not do the same.
>>    I welcome your response.

>Somehow I think that you will not like the responses you get ...

>-- 
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Hi!  I'm .Siggy, the National .Sig Foundation poster child.
>---------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus was not just a Jewish Carpenter, He was God incarnate.  So, God did not 
just pick some poor Jew to kill, God became man to pay the penalty for man's 
wrongdoing.  God is not the one to blame for what we do wrong.  Was He supposed
to create mental and physical robots with no free will or choice?  Yes, He did
know before time began that man would do wrong, and that because God is just, 
wrong does not go unpunished in heaven, as it often does here on earth.  But, 
since God is also a God of love He decided to pay the penalty for us, if we 
choose to accept it.  You are right in realizing that it all depends on who we
see Jesus of Nazareth as.  Was He just another Jewish carpenter or was He the 
Son of God?