HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahansfor@hikita.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford)
Subject: Re: 020 vs 030
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1992Aug14.023015.1013@msus1.msus.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:21:00 GMT

>>>>> On 14 Aug 92 02:30:14 -0600, lkoop@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (LaMonte Koop) said:


lkoop> Indeed.  The 68030 and 68EC030 are identical parts save for the
lkoop> fact that the EC part has no working MMU.  I have not been real
lkoop> pleased with the use of EC series parts thus far.  Their
lkoop> implementation is a bit problematic in some circumstances.  It
lkoop> is a real idiotic pain to properly identify in software the
lkoop> 68EC030 from the standard 68030, and this can cause some system
lkoop> level software problems, especially should anything desire to
lkoop> use the 68030's MMU.

How about a jumper on the board. Not elegant but certainly workable.  

-- Andrew Hansford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ahansfor@coal.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford)
Subject: Need for MMU (Was: Re: JAM info on A570 & A2200/A2400 ...)
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<AHANSFOR.92Aug17235152@coal.wpi.edu>
	<1992Aug18.181748.4995@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:26:24 GMT

>>>>> On 18 Aug 92 18:17:48 GMT, gfm@Gnu.ai.mit.edu (George Francis McBay) said:

gfm> In article <AHANSFOR.92Aug17235152@coal.wpi.edu> ahansfor@coal.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford) writes:

daveh>  An '020 would make sense in a faster A500/A600 class machine.
daveh> A real (eg, full 32-bit) '020 system would be faster than the
daveh> silly 16-bit '030 Mac or '386SX systems at most things.

Andrew> But why not an EC030 so as to keep the Amiga's busses as
Andrew> similar as

gfm> Probably because the original article was talking about using
gfm> Virtual Memory.  Commodore MUST be planning on making this a part of 
gfm> the Operating System someday (even if not for 3.0, etc) so it would make
gfm> sense to release new systems with MMUs, something the EC's don't have
gfm> (or, if they have them, are untested and disabled)

I thought the article was about an interview in JAM.

It makes no difference. The 020 has no MMU either.  The specific
question was 020 vs EC030, not EC030 vs 030.

I don't see were C= MUST be planning on VM.  I hope so but I honestly
believe we can do without it and if VM is more than a year away then
it makes no difference.  Why dell a class of machines with the added
cost of an MMU when they'll will probably never use it. Especially
when many seem to want a cheap 32bit system.


If a socketed EC030 were used then a real 030 could be dropped in
later for the MMU.  020 w/68551 mmu or any other Motorola compatible
MMU would be slower and more expensive than an 030. Of course
socketing the cpu adds to cost also, so a truely low cost machine
may have a surface mounted cpu.

--Andrew Hansford
  ahansfor@wpi.wpi.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: C= Financial Results
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Distribution: comp
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:29:44 GMT

In article <torrie.714291031@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>  I guess MB hasn't read the news today; otherwise he'd be posting.
>
>  Just to summarise, Commodore's stock dropped around 25% today
>to $6.785 after reporting a loss of $21.9 million for the 
>4th quarter of 92.  Revenues were $140.7 million for the quarter, 
>and $911 million for the year (down from $1.05 billion in 1991).

I noticed this too.  And you know C= knew about this for a while.
Perhaps that spurred the A3000T'040?
.

>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
>Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.


--
Dan Stephenson das9674@usl.edu 
"Is it that Blake has a genius for leadership, or merely that *you* have a 
 genius for being led?" -Avon, from Blakes 7
From: dleland@dante.nmsu.edu (LELAND)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A3000T ad (was: Re: New A3000T ?!?
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:49:05 GMT
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM

In reference to the "dorky guy" in the Amiga A300T ad: this is precisely the
kind of "no win" complaints I seem to see more and more of on this discussion.
In the recent issues of BYTE, in which this C= ad appeared, I have seen ads
set on beaches with crazy guys with beachballs, people climbing mountains to
get to their new laptops, pictures of cartoon families going totally berzerk 
over the new such and such PC, cartoons of users having their heads bitten off
by dragons, "enemy" computers exploding, being struck by lightning, and 
devouring users. I have seen so many silly looking ads by "sensible" companies
that it really makes me wonder. 

When other companies make ads of any kind it seems to me, they get praise from
the Amiga community like this "see? they advertize!" When C= makes ads, ANY
ads, and I have yet to see ONE ad from C= that some net guy didn't complain 
about, they are damned for having bad ads. I really worry about this. I know
anybody on the net is fully entitled to their opinions, but jeez guys! At least
try to be pleased once in a while!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: e91sg@efd.lth.se (Stefan Gimeson)
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:39:47 GMT

In article <64142@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>If you doubled everyone's taxes
>
>You can't pay off the federal budget deficit (bad choice of words, I
>admit) with higher taxes.
>
>Higher taxes != Higher Revenue
>
>And if you have no idea of why that is true, then I suggest you
>just do a little reading of history of the past 20 years.
>
>Also, one last bit of thinking: You can't tax yourself out of a
>deficit of this magnitude.

Do you know what group this is ?????
This is comp.sys.amiga.advocacy....
I not very interested of what you think of Perot and I don't
think that other people reading your political bull**it are
either...
PLEASE STOP!!!

===============================================================================
Stefan Gimeson                  e91sg@efd.lth.se
Tunavagen 39 B660
223 63 Lund
Sweden

Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."

==============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:56:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.061603.2580@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>Cutting off the hand that offends you will probably have a better
>result.  But that doesn't make it right.
>
>That's all I'm trying to say.  I'm not saying that it doesn't work.
>I'm saying its immoral and it's not right.

I see now.  I'm afraid I do not subscribe to doing or advocacting
'waht's right', without any thought about other than some 'gut' feeling
about it.  I think hurting people (convicts in this case) is terrible,
but I think it helps other people more.
With regard to the 'let murderers go free so that the scarce convicted
go aren't wrongly prosecuted': I see this stuff from more of a 'desensitized,
absolute' POV.  The ends justify the means, as it were.  So I'd 

All in al, I do value your opinion.  While we both have the same goals,
we disagree on how to acheive them.  Correct?
>
>(:	gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu			Gregory R. Block         :)
--
Dan Stephenson das9674@usl.edu 
"Is it that Blake has a genius for leadership, or merely that *you* have a 
 genius for being led?" -Avon, from Blakes 7
From: cable@crs.cl.msu.edu (Dan Cable)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Falcon030 is there ..
Keywords: Falcon030
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:15:21 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University


Hear, hear! Or is it here, here!?
--
Dan Cable                            e-mail cable@crs.cl.msu.edu
Canton MI USA planet Earth           Compuserve 75266.353
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: CDTV is dead.
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:55:31 GMT

In article <34246@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
>ram loaded CDTV libraries would be one solution on a machine with
>more than a meg of ram and a hard disk.  But we were talking
>about the A570, meant to hook up to the A500 and convert it to
>a CDTV.
>
>Requiring a scsi controller, extra ram, and a hard disk would 
>add to the cost of the unit.

   True, but the A570 has already been developed, and rumored to be shipping
in Sweden.  I keep referring to the need for a method to allow A2000 and
A3000 systems (or any system that can use Zorro II cards) to run CDTV titles.
There have been three articles in AmigaWorld on a CDTV-compatible CD-ROM drive
for the A500, but no articles on one for the A2000/A3000, so it is in question
whether or not such a device or product is in development.

>As a solution to CDTV for an A2000/A3000 ?  Why ?  A Zorro II card
>with a cable to the external CDROM drive would be a lot easier.
>
>(and you wouldn't have to find or design a SCSI CDROM drive that handles
> subcode data)
>
>And, yes, of course I agree such a card should have been done a year
>ago.

    Or I have another idea.  A third-party developer could license a 2.0-
compatible version of the CDTV OS from Commodore, including the extra 256K
of OS software.  This third-party could then modify the CDTV OS slightly to
allow it to run properly on Amigas with appropriate third-party CD-ROM 
drives.  It might not run on all third-party drives (the 'subcode data' 
problem being one example), and it might have to be restricted to only 
running on systems with at least 2M of total RAM and 1M of chip RAM and an
MMU, but it would be better than nothing.  At the very least, it would 
allow all A3000 systems with an appropriate CD-ROM drive to use CDTV titles.

>andy finkel		{uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy
>
>"C++ should really have been called D."
>
>
>Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
>I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
     "Beware the ides of September..."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: No AA machines in September -- NOT!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 03:15:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.213753.6389@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>In <tempelma.713787010@durrenhorn> tempelma@prl.philips.nl (Harald Tempelman) writes:
>>But it's a *slow* interface...  Compare it to the 386/486 boards with IDE
>>interface: it's the bottleneck of these machines.
>
>IDE is not too slow except for the very new high performance disks.
>And in this case SCSI-1 won't help much either. For the standard disks
>used by most people (something in the <250MB range) IDE is fast and
>sufficient and most important: cheap.

   Yes, IDE is fast and cheap, but it is not flexible.  But do you really want
cheap unflexibility on a high-end system?  I agree that IDE would be ideal on
a hypothetical low-mid-range system with an '020, no FPU, a minimum of RAM, and
a smaller HD; but we are talking about 25Mhz '040 systems with lots of RAM and
big hard drives, and it just does not make sense to me to use IDE in such a
system.  The faster CPU and extra RAM make up the bulk of the increased cost, 
so that the extra cost of SCSI (around $50 per system) is low by comparison.

   With IDE, you can't use more than one or two devices no matter what you do,
and good luck finding compatible devices besides hard drives.  Whereas SCSI
can handle seven devices which can be anything from ethernet cards to laser
printers to frame buffers to tape drives.  And you get this extra flexibility
at a cost that is less than the cost of an extra HD floppy drive.

>Michael van Elst
>UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
>Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
>                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
    "Beware the ides of September..."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Talk about obsoletes.....
Distribution: world
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:28:36 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <Paula_Lieberman.06hq@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman) writes:
>Rick Kelly said he was thinking about a Sun-3 [used by definition. Sun
>dropped its 68xxx support, not just the manufacture of machines based on
>them, a while ago....].  Is anyone is in the business of keeping up with OS
>upgrades for them?   Sun isn't.......

True.  But their is a new BSD port for SUN 3 boxes.

Sure, the Sun 3 is obsolete, but they can serve a useful purpose if the price
is right.

I have to admit that I'm one of those people who would have 30 computers if
my SO would let me. :-)

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: chuj@horton.Colorado.EDU (CHU JEFFREY)
Subject: Re: DIR
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 02:23:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.200425.3953@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>In <1992Aug16.162748.25000@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> chuj@horton.Colorado.EDU (CHU JEFFREY) writes:
>>Yes, FP is a factor, but the last I read, 486-33 has about the same FP as the
>>040-25.
>
>I can assure you. That is definitely NOT the case.
>
>Regards,
>-- 
>Michael van Elst

Well Michael here's your chance to assure us.  Here is some articles which
came from people who had the specs and tests.  There are some Magazine pages
and which mags some of the specs came from.  And remember as well these tests
were done without the Weitek 4167 which is a Math co-processor for the 486DX
machines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rticle 19433 of comp.sys.atari.st:
From: sclayton@duck.WPI.EDU (Shawn Clayton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware
Subject: Re: Macintosh MIPS Comparison
Date: 8 Jun 92 02:59:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: wpi.1992Jun8.025911.537
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

In the FAQ's on comp.unix.aux, there is a line saying
that a Quadra 950 running AUX 3.0 does about 7 SPECmarks.

For comparison, A DECstation 5000/120 does about
14 SPECmarks (22 MIPS), A SPARCstation IPX about 25
SPECmarks (29 MIPS), and a HP-Apollo 710 about 50 SPECmarks
(58 MIPS).  Standard disclaimer about the validity of 
SPECmarks (or any benchmark) applies.  Just thought this 
might be interesting as these are all systems listed at 
under $10,000.  I beleive the MIPS ratings are for
VAX MIPS, but I could be wrong......

-Shawn



coolidge@cs.uiuc.edu (John Coolidge) writes:
: 21602MR@MSU (Mark Rosenberg) writes:
: >It's true according to the latest Business Week (June 1 92)
: >In a feature article on Intel, there is a chart comparing
                           ^^^^^ ;-)
: >cisc to risc.... it looks like this:
  [john's version:]
: >Intel 486 = 19 Specmarks                     @45-50MHz
: >Moto  040 = 11                               @25MHz
: >Sun Sparc = 25                               SparcStation 2 or IPC
: >Mips R4000= 44 - 63                          Probably a high-end SGI box?
: >HP PA Risc= 77                               The old high-end Snakes box
: >IBM Power = 89                               The old high-end RS/6000.

	cpu			MIPS		MFLOPS
	040-25 Mhz		15-18		1.6-2.4
	030-33 Mhz		7-8		NA
	030-25 Mhz		6-7		NA
	030-20 Mhz		5-6		NA
	030-16 Mhz		3-4		NA
	486-33 Mhz		15-16		1.8-2.6  (w/o Weitek)
	486-25 Mhz		11-12		.8-1.0    ""
	486SX			8-9		NA
	386-40			~9		NA
	386-33			7-8		NA
	386-25			4-5		NA
	386SX20			3-4		NA

There are numerous mags that support either ways.  One that
may be of interest to you is BYTE (MFLOPS) may 1991 page 220, and recent issue
of PC magazine may 12 1992 where they compare Quadra, NeXT, SPARC, 486-50.
But I do suggest having a glance at the PC mag may 1992 issue and the BYTE
which had the MFLOPS ratings "486DX33 faster than the 040-25 in MFLOPS".

To also get idea how 030 processors matches up with the 386 machines,
the latest Mac POWERBOOK ads stated that a 030-16Mhz = 386SX20 running
windows 3.0, and a 030-25Mhz = 486SX running windows 3.0.

Article 22223 of comp.sys.mac.hardware:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.unix.aux
From: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Subject: Quadra SPECmarks (well... kinda)
Reply-To: jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jim Jagielski)
Organization: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:19:42 GMT

A while ago there was a discussion on the benchmarking results of Mac's,
mainly the Quadras. A few people, myself included, suggested that the
Quadras were in the 10-14 SPECmark range.

Although I don't know of any true SPECmark results for the Quadra (and
just the one for the IIfx), I have seen results for other 040-based
systems... Here they are (from Unix Review, Sept '92):

============================================================================
System                 K Dhrystones     K Whetstones    MFLOPS     SPECmarks
                         (1.1/2.0)      (Sing/Dbl)     (S/D)

NextStation Turbo        32.3/30.5        5.7/7.5       2.5/2.3      14.1
  (33MHz 040)

NextStation              24.8/22.9        4.2/5.5       1.8/1.6      ??
  (25MHz 040)

HP 9000/425e             58.1/39.2        10.9/10.8     1.7/1.6      10.3
  (25MHz 040)

And For Comparison....

Sun ELC 4/25             40.5/25.1        23.1/14.7     5.1/2.6      15.2
  (33MHz Sparc)

MOBIUS P450 ICX          50.0/48.1        11.2/11.2     2.3/1.8      12.4
  (50MHz 486)

DECstation 5000/125      41.7/36.8        16.6/13.0     6.3/2.6      14.2
  (25MHz R3000)
============================================================================

I would suggest that, with the right compilier (such as gcc), the Quadras
would fall quite nicely in this catagory...

Funny how compilers can _really_ affect "standard" benchmarks yet don't
affect SPECmarks that much (as it should be)...



-- 
==============================================================================
#include <std/disclaimer.h>

                Jim Jagielski                  NASA/GSFC, Code 734.4
          jim@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov             Greenbelt, MD 20771

           "The great scallop... this tatty, scrofulous old rapist,
               is second in depravity only to the common clam."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, we already went through 486 vs. 040 just a few months ago when
some Mac guy in MAC.HARDWARE suggested that their 040 was faster than the 
fastest 486 at the time (50Mhz 486).  And to top it off, in recent BYTE mags
there was an ad put out by MOTOROLA(BIAS?) that had ratings of 040 vs. 486,
it would figure that the test was done on a 486 running windows 3.0.  Oh well.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: C= speaks!!! let's spread the words!!!
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Distribution: comp
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:57:58 GMT

In <34403@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>channels have an independent volume control.  While you can't feed the volume
>control from a DMA channel like you can the DAC, software that programs both
>the DAC and the volume control on the Amiga directly with the CPU can get better
>than 8-bit resolution on each channel.

Oops. You can use a DMA channel to feed the volume (and sample period) values.
Of course you loose a channel for the DAC at the same time.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: People, CALM DOWN!
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:58:47 GMT
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <63797@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>you're a CS who gave up on EE because the math was too intimidating

>Way back in the dark ages, CS's and EE's used to take the same
>math; in fact, CS's took more because the last two years were all
>different types of numerical analysis.

I don't think most schools have EE's and CS's taking exactly the same kind of
mathematics.  When I was in school (not exactly the dark ages, but getting
there), CS was actually taught as a mathematics tract, not as a separate major.
You can't get much more mathematical than that in your CS.  Both EE and Math
departments required at least one CS course, though to get the Math/CS degree
you needed some basic CS courses beyond that.  Math folks of all kinds needed
some of the same mathematics courses, like a few semesters of calculus, etc.
But you could get by with much different kinds of mathematics than EE's, who
went on to all the really annoying stuff that goes with field analysis,
semiconductor physics, control theory, etc.  I don't know all of the courses 
that were required for the different math tracts, my primary department was
EE, I added math as a secondary department to get "Electical Engineering and
Mathematics" written on my diploma.  But I'm pretty sure, while both types of
degrees involve lots of mathematics, you have far more latitude in the kind
of math you study under any reasonable CS or Mathematics program than for EE.
After all, the mathematics an EE needs are pretty much mandated by physics.
-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      BIX: hazy
	"Work like a horse, drink like a fish"	- Psychefunkapus