HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric Marsh)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: being a pagan can be fun...
Date: 5 Jan 1993 18:10:36 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: hernes-sun

In article <1993Jan5.063920.17168@wixer.cactus.org> thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson) writes:
>Let's work together. Each of us is a shining star in the darkness!

>>Iluinn Dreamdance #30 @9950 WWIVnet writes:
>>I tried to explain to him that I was a Pagan, not a Satanist...but he'd have

>I am very glad that the state did not take away the child, and I think that
>we pagans should try to help each other when dealing with non-pagans.
>But, I disagree with the statement, that Satanists and Pagans are mutually
>exclusive. Good Luck!

I don't think that this should even be an issue, when the state
determines the fitness of parents to raise their kids. Pagan, Satanist,
Christian, Hindu or whatever: it is not the job of the state to make
decisions as to what beliefs systems are appropiate, and what belief
systems are not. When the state starts to exert control of this nature
then we have taken a very large step down the road toward Orwell's
'1984.' 

I agree that we need to work together on these things. That is one
of the reasons the Bay Area Pagan Assemblies was formed. We have
tried to maintain a very positive relationship with both the police
and the press, and when these things come up (and they do) we have
found those relationships to be very benifical.

If BAPA can be of service, especially in the San Francisco Bay area,
please contact us at (510) 656-GAIA.

>=-= Thorfinn Einarsson =-=-=-= Break On Thru to the Other Side =-=-=-=-=
>"Guilt. Although the most acute judges of the witches, and even the
>witches themselves, were convinced of the guilt of witchery, the guilt
>was non-existent. It is thus with all guilt." ---Nietzsche
>=-= From *The Gay Science* [250] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=
>

Eric

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15061 talk.religion.misc:25438
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Critique of Gimbutas "Idyllic Goddess" Claims
Date: 7 Jan 1993 18:12:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1993Jan7.011122.27059@netcom.com>, sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
> 
>         The   feminist/New  Age  "Idyllic  Goddess"  theory  is  not   an
>         intellectually-respectable   hypothesis.  It  was   invented   by
>         conjecturing far beyond what available facts will permit,  guided
>         by  a  political agenda, and "validated" by  intuition.  While  a
>         belief in a universal Goddess of the Neolithic was widely-held by
>         scholars  several  decades ago, recent scholarly  critiques  have
>         exposed serious difficulties with this view, and it is now  quite
>         discredited   within  academe.  The  overwhelming   majority   of
>         anthropologists  and archaeologists reject Gimbutas'  interpreta-
>         tions and conjectures on "the Goddess"; however, most of them are
>         reluctant  to speak out too strongly, out of sympathy  for  their
>         ailing colleague, and for her feminist goals.
> 
>         Yet  in spite of its rejection by scholars, the  Idyllic  Goddess
>         theory  has found enormous support among certain segments of  the
>         general public, because it appeals to their preconceived beliefs.
>         Thus Gimbutas' Goddess theories should be placed alongside  those
>         of  Velikovsky  and  Von  Daniken:  belief-systems  which,  while
>         enjoying  a cult-like popularity among certain groups of  laymen,
>         are  rejected virtually _in toto_ by scholars who have worked  in
>         the field. They are classic examples of pseudo-science.



Thanks for posting those critiques.  It was informative and very interesting.

That said, where did you get that the theory wasn't "intellectually
respectable", whatever the hell that means.  When I read those critiques,
I got the picture that she went out on a limb with her conclusions and
that there is a lot of valid doubt and that her conclusions shouldn't
be taken too literally.  But it didn't look like they thought her work
was worthless or bullshit.

It sounds to me like you decided to say it's not "respectable" because
that appeals to YOUR preconceived beliefs.  Just because there are problems
with a theory doesn't mean it's pseudo-science, especially not in the
soft science fields.  Controversy != bullshit.

Dawn
"What if I had PMS all my life, and told you you looked just like Barney Fife,
What if I twisted it in like a knife, Until it made you cry? Until it made
you lie? Would you still love me?"
"What If..." by Bongwater
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 04:11:02 GMT

When I saw Starhawk speak, she led a spiral dance and we chanted one you
mentioned -- "She changes everything she touches, and all she touches changes."

She also sang another little song:
          "Who were the witches? Where did they come from?
           Maybe your great-great-great-grandma was one.
           Witches are wild wise women, they say,
           And there's a little witch in every woman today."

:->

Marty



=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Seems like there ought to be a way we could look each other in the eye
To see we're all in this together, and put all thoughts of victory aside.
Seems like there ought to be a way we could turn this fear into trust;
No matter what you say, there has to be a way --
Every living thing is counting on us."      

Marty Hale-Evans                                 M   @   *   O   %   8   U
89 Mass. Ave., Ste. 199, Boston, MA 02115       \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/ \|/



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: csg155@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Leviathan)
Subject: Re: A new song from Stayka...
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:12:42 GMT

>
>> Maus Duisburg 1 & 2    Numbers:   +49-2841-536777
>> ????????  +49-2841-55275
>

Does anyone know how I can access this bbs via PAD or telnet?

Please reply by mail.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: claebaur@shell.portal.com (Tony S Annese)
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 05:34:08 GMT

In article <C0MEL4.IyI@world.std.com> marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:
>Let me also mention a store called Abyss here in MA that has a *great* 
>mailorder catalog for music, books, etc. for pagans of most stripes. Again,


Another very good mail order place for all types of Pagan(With emphasis on 
wiccan items as it is run by a wiccan coven) items is a shop called 
Enchantments which is located in New York City. I dont have the address handy
but I will look for their catalog and post the address.
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Tony Annese                                            claebaur@shell.portal.com
                                                  -or- claebaur@cup.portal.com
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 7 Jan 93 22:15:24 GMT

In article <1357@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>
>In article <1igre5INNj4c@unidui.uni-duisburg.de>, hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke) writes...

[deleted]

>>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes about Amazons:
>>JMC>
>>JMC> I've always held in my mind the image of an Amazon as being a woman 
>>JMC> who says, "This is what I am, and it's not changing to suit anyone 
>>JMC> else but me.  If you don't like it, look the other way."  Someone who 
>>JMC> knows what she is and will defend her self to the death, someone who 
>>JMC> won't hide any portion of her self, of alter it to "fit in."
>> 
>>Yeah, that would be a small part of that which I consider an Amazon,
>>because you don't consider any duties coming with the right to call
>>yourself Amazon.  Those duties would imply giving any other woman help
>>when you are asked for it, and several others I don't seem to recall. 
>>But I must note, that I DO adher to the Darkovan way, which does not
>>have to be yours. 
>
>	The Amazons I know would own that statement too, and just as 
>fiercely. They don't have a duty to defend all women, but they do have 
>a loyalty to the members of their tribe/coven and the line of women who 
>initiated them (there's a word for that, don't know it). They battle 
>wherever the Goddess puts them, from clinics under siege to getting 
>President Bill elected, and view their trials and conflicts as a testing 
>and purifying experience. They are some of the most loyal, noble and 
>trustworthy people I have ever met.  

Well, isn't helping out your friends kind of assumed?  I don't feel the
need to call myself an Amazon to give any aid at all to my special
amiga-hermana.

Blessings,
Janis
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 5 Jan 93 05:43:40 GMT

In article <C0D4Hs.A11@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Jan4.020504.1435@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>>I think the question being asked here, and I would also like to see it
>>>answered, is if there is any evidence of Wicca existing before Gardner.
>>>Family traditions are a separate issue, unless these traditions appear
>>>to be related to Wicca.
>
>>Are we also talking about religions with similar traditions and beliefs
>>or something called Wicca(tm)?  Certainly, belief systems that use a
>>triune Goddess with an annually dying consort are legion, as are
>>religions that mark the solar and lunar points of the year with rituals
>>and revere natural elements.  Must it be called Wicca?
>
>Janis, my love,
>We are trying to address GBG's claims that he inherited an ancient tradition.

I understand that, but these discussions seem so often to go off on a
tanent as to whether or not ANY Pagan recovered religion is "real" or
not that I thought I'd address what would have become a topic in the
conversation at some point.

Blessings,
Janis
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 15:37:49 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
> 	Of course I'm speculating about most of this, because I'm not an Amazon 
> myself.....
> 
> 		Sea blessings......
> 				- Ashley

I suggest that you encourage some of your Amazon friends with Internet
access to tell us themselves about what they're into. Why speculate
when you don't have to, and this should also GUARANTEE them opportunites
for constructive dialogue and the odd confrontation or two.

Blessings,,, A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
[path]!pacbell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup) alizard@Blue.Kludge.com (if all else fails)
PGP2.0 public key available on request.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 05:40:45 GMT


I applaude the eforts of those who seek to sholastically document the
'pagan' faiths and practices of re-  pre- christian europe.
I had a norse mythology proffessor who drove into my head the need 
to properly document things...
Perhaps one day I may join thier ranks.
Yet I do  not think that the scholastiic view must nessecarily be at
odds with those who 'make it up as they go along'
I think the two need to be merged to make a viable religion. Lest we
fall into the same trap the fundamentalists have, and thake outr
'holy texts' literally, and allow no other interpetation.
To my knowledge, there are great gaps in you knowlegde of the pre-christian
faiths. Much of what we have are versions of oral traditions which were
recorded by christian monks who did not understand the archaic material
they were writing down. Or worse yet, were using it for propaganda.
For a religion to be viable, it must be able to adapt to the times.
Our scientific knowlege gives us a different world view than that
of our ancestors. The myths of the neo-pagan faiths must be able to
adress the problems faced by man toaday.
To my mind, using the scholastic evidence of the past as the base, and
then incorperationg the 'new' traditions , perhaps glacing at the surviving
native traditions around the world as a guide (like the native american 
religions) may be the best way to go about it.
I find it regrettable that such a war as you describe ocurred.
Pagans need to work with each other.
Debate if fine and proper, but such actions as you describe....
Grrr...
Jaguar
collecting her kittens again
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dlg1@ellis.uchicago.edu (deborah lynn gillaspie)
Subject: Re: Herbs for torn tendon?
Reply-To: dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:32:32 GMT

Janet,
I personally use Kneipp's Juniper bath for soaking and the shower gel
in my morning shower, I find it helps a lot. But that's only personal,
and theirs is a commercial product. I don't think there are any dosages
on the products, just "a capful" for the bath and a squeeze on the 
washcloth for shower gel. I would guess that means it's pretty innocuous
stuff, unless you happen to have an allergy. Their rosemary stuff is
good too, but I've found the juniper to be better for sore muscles. Look
for Kneipp products in high-end pharmacies and in some health food stores.
Here in Chicago we have a cosmetics chain called Ulta3 that carries them
at discount. You can also mail order direct, if you can't find it let me
know and I'll e-mail you the address. --Debbie
 


-- 
Internet:         dlg1@midway.uchicago.edu
Bitnet:           dlg1%midway@uchicago
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: In need of phone number, and Runes...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:21:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.224544.16695@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kditto@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto) writes:
>
>Hi there!

Hi back atcha.

>Also, Janis - 40-50$ sounds about right for the runes, and I would buy a
>set ( the nice ones made out of the branch:)).  That's the apporx. price I
>have seen them at in the local Ren. festivals.
>
>Thank you very much for any information proferred.

If you aren't kidding, I'd be glad to make you a set and send them to
you for $45.  Do you have a favorite color (for the pouch)?

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: czarbock@cltr.uq.oz.au (Carol Zarbock)
Subject: Re: Amazons and the Labrys - was: Re: Question/symbol
Organization: Centre for Language Teaching and Research, Uni of Queensland, AUSTRALIA.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 11:32:05 GMT


I too, have a question about the symbol of the labrys.  Actually, I got
mine on the island of Crete where they were, during the time of the
Minoans, a religious symbol similar to the bull horns.

Now, what is the connection to Amazon or lesbian?  I've never been able to
figure this out.

BB,
Athena
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:05:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.021711.9762@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>: 
>: The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is 
>: "Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because of
>: the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  Therefore
>: you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before Gardener.
>: 
>: Does everyone else see the circle that I do?
>
>That was not the intended impression. Witchcraft is a religion. Folk magic
>is not. What we want is documentation of a folk religion (similar to
>Witchcraft) prior to the introduction by Gerald Gardener - in the US. In

Define religion; this is not a nitpicking question.  How are you using
the term?  I am not asking this to take you to task for your definition
of religion; I just want to know how YOU are defining the term here.  

Sorry if this has already been asked.

Blessings,
Janis
From: pat@Autodesk.COM (Pat Huey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Celtic/Druid Marriage Rituals
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:37:11 GMT
Organization: Autodesk Inc., Sausalito CA, USA
Cc: christinad@autodesk.com pat@autodesk.com

Hi,

A lesbian couple I know wants to have a marriage/commitment ceremony
based on early Celtic/Druid rituals. Does anyone know anything about
this type of ceremony, or have suggestions about where they can find
what they need to know? 

If anyone has any suggestions, you can email christinad@autodesk.com
(she's not on this news group).

Thanks,
Pat

pat@autodesk.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

	"Many religious people are deeply suspicious. They
	seem--for purely religious purposes, of course--
	to know more about iniquity than the unregenerate."

				--Rudyard Kipling,
				  Plain Tales from the Hills


Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15260 talk.religion.misc:25869 alt.atheism:25690 alt.slack:3666
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:11:17 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1isnv3INNadt@network.ucsd.edu> spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont) writes:
>>Of course, you need an infinite amount of time to have Him tell you...
>
>Much easier to ask the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.
>That only takes 7.5 million years.

  And the answer only has two significant digits with no decimal
  point.  Even the Hebrews could have gotten that one right.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15104 talk.religion.misc:25555
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:32:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) says:

>ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield) writes:
>>In a previous article, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) says:
>>
>>>*DISCLAIMER* The opinions and thoughts which I present here on this thread
>>>and in this post are not necessarily my own.  They are reactions, both past
>>>and projected, by Christian fundamentalists to the arguments presented.  I
>>>deliberately take this position to further understand the reasoning behind
>>>it and educate myself on some aspects of apologetics.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know this because God has promised this in his Holy Scriptures, and
>>>God cannot lie.
>>
>>If this is true, then how come his book says that pi = 3.0?
>
>It doesn't.  The verses you are talking about describe a basin, and give
>measurements.  The context does not specify pi=3.0, and the data given are
>correct to within percentage points...
>
Oh, but it does.  It states that the basin in question is "circular" it
also gives the diameter as ten cubits and the circumference as 30 cubits.

ANy fifth grader can divide this and get pi = 3.0

-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: something irritating in Ms. Magazine
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:58:46 GMT

Vossdavi@student.msu.edu (Lisa  Ann) writes:

>happens I'm bolting the door from the inside! Anyone likely to believe that
>drivel isn't going to know the difference between a wiccan and a satin
>worshipper!

Oh that's easy...a wiccan is a person who believes in the harmony of the
universe and the cycle of the seasons and such, while a satin worshipper
just believes in the Moody Blues and sits around listening to them all day.

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:29:39 GMT

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
: >
: >Oh, come now.  "I am the way, the truth, and the life?"  You can't do 
: >anything *but* interpret it symbolically.  It has no concrete denotational 
: >meaning whatsoever.
: 
: I was referring more to the second part: NO MAN cometh to the Father BUT
: BY ME.  Jesus refers to himself as the way; the way to what?  The way to
: the Father.

So? Does he state that you must believe in the "Father", or not have any
religious beliefs at all?

... delided ...

: Context again!  Read the verses following John 16:12 to understand.  I do
: believe that the unregenerate mind cannot understand spiritual things; but
: when it is blessed by the Holy Spirit, it can.

Ah, we have our answer. Since when do your beliefs have anything to do with
actuality? How do you know that your mind has been "blessed by the Holy
Spirit"? Maybe you are just fooling yourself. Given your appearing lack of
tolerance for those who do not believe exactly as you do, I would hazard
that this is the case. Just my personal belief, mind you. I may, or may not,
have been "blessed by the Holy Spirit". However, I believe that the tolerance
I practice is much closer to the reputed teachings of Jesus than what you
seem to practice.

Bill
From: troyce@pro-haven.cts.com (Troyce Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: something irritating in Ms. Magazine
Date: 10 Jan 1993 19:26:27 -0600
Organization: ProLine [pro-haven] - Pariahs' Haven BBS, 409/846-3177, 9600-300
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Did you see Prime Time Live this past week?  They did a story about
psychologists that specialize in convincing people they were ritually
abused as children by their "Satanic" parents.  It did a good job of
showing that these so-called counsellors were projecting their own beliefs
on their patients, and that there has NEVER been any evidence to prove that
any of this has ever happened.
---
Internet: troyce@pro-haven.cts.com
UUCP:     crash!pro-haven!troyce
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: wdavis@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Bill Davis)
Subject:  Any Pagan/Wicca in Montgomery Ala?
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:37:16 GMT
Reply-To: wdavis@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Bill Davis)
Organization: Harris Semiconductor, Melbourne  FL

I know someone who is moving to Montgomery, Alabama
in a few weeks and wants to know how to get in contact
with Pagan or Wiccan folk there.   She said that her drive
around town to check it out led her feel there was a
church on every corner.   So, she is concerned that the
Pagan/Wiccan community there will be hard to find.

Email responses preferred.
--
Bill Davis
wdavis@dw3f.ess.harris.com