HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: cannon balls
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:37 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Aug18.140803.17224@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#
#BTW, does anyone know how explosive cannon balls (or modern
#cannon shells for that matter) worked?  It doesn't seem like they
#could have run the fuse throught the touch hole and achieved any
#speed.  Did they load the fuse against the powder charge and hope
#for the best? 

Originally, yes. Then it was discovered that it didn't matter if the fuse
was against the powder or not. The hot gases go around the ball as soon as
it leaves the muzzle, thus igniting the fuse even if it is in front.  
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sotgun or rifle for defense?
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:36 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Aug14.205443.16826@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#I was thinking that light buckshot loads in a 12 ga would be
#preferable to a 20 ga, as the 12 is more versitile, more 
#ammo available, and he can use the normal stuff when one is
#more accustomed to the 12.
#
#However, I went into the local store, and there _is no_ light
#buckshot load that I could see.  In fact most of the ammo is
#birdshot, at about $4-8 for 25 rds for either gauge, with a
#very limited selection of buck available, and all seemingly
#much more expensive than the birdshot: boxes of 5 rds only.
#
#Not good for practice, I thought.    Is this the norm?


	Not by me, and I'm in NEW JERSEY!  I use #4 buck trap load.  Low
	brass... nothing to get panicky about in terms of recoil but still
	sends 7/8 oz. of #4 out the barrel which translated into 27 pellets
	if I am not mistaken.  Real common in these parts.

	-Andy V.
From: raymond@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu (Raymond Man)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Book research: Bullets in water.
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:27 GMT


#My hero is being shot at from about 200-300 Meters with an SLR .76 caliber.
#I need to know how far he must dive if he is to be anywhere near safe.

You did not specify how high above water is the shooter. Also of
relevency is the state of the water surface. On a very calm surface,
a bullet glances at a shallow angle(shooter close to water surface)
will simply bounce off without entering water. At 200-300m range,
a 2m high shooter will yield a 1:100 (~ half a degree) angle which
IMHO will be small enough to bounce of most bullets from a calm
surface.

For penetration in water, since water is 1,000 time denser than air,
a rough guide will be 1m of water will slow the bullet like 1,000m
of air do. So look up the lethal range of the round and divide by a
thousand.

I doubt a straight answer to the question can be given without actual
experiement with the particular round, range and surface condition.

Raymond Man
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Prices????
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:13:57 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

What are the going prices for Glocks and Firestars these days?
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:25 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <viking.713756612@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
:
:	I've had a few requests to post information on Wenol, the
:magic elixer I bought at a gun show a few years ago.  
:
:	Wenol is made in W. Germany by Hohn & Hohn GmbH, D5657 Haan 1
:(I'm German-impaired, but that looks like an address).  b
:The "o"'s
:in the name above have that sideways colon sitting over them.
:
:<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>

I'm just marginally unimpaired with German, but I think I can help a
little bit.  The double dots over the "o" are called an "umlaut" and
simply change the pronunciation.  The name translates to Wen Oil, I
have no idea what Wen means but it is likely is or is derived from the
firms name.  The address looks OK but it is just Germany now, not West
Germany.

Lee

"Nothing blasts forever" -- Keats on ammo.

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.uc.edu (Bill Preuss)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: LOAD
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:09:30 GMT
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248

I have been trying to work up a load for my Rem 700 PSS .308 using
Sierra's 155 gr Palma Match bullet.  So far I have not had any good
results.  I am using H4895, Rem cases and Win primers.  Has anyone else
tried the 155 gr bullet and if you have good you share it with us?  I am
interested in powder, primer, case and OAL.  Thanks.
Bill Preuss
cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.UC.EDU (Bill Preuss)
From: cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gum Safe
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:05 GMT
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA

In article <199208181704.AA14433@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#Hello gang!
#
#I'm going to purchase a gun safe. I'll appreciate it if anyone can
#answer my questions.
#
#(1) A local gun store told me that a Browning safe is the only way
#    to go and all other brands are not worthwile to get. Is that
#    true? If not, what other brands should I consider?

A gun safe is not exactly a high-tech device;
if he says that it is the best buy, maybe he 
is right (maybe he just wants to see you what
he sells), but if he says that no other type 
of safe "is worthwhile" then he is full of it.

#(2) He wants to charge me: the whole sale price + $50 profit + tax + shipping.
#    Is that a good deal? ( Shipping is about $60 in this case. )

Just like with buying a car, you never know what
"whole sale price" means.  There are always dealer
kickbacks that are not on the sticker, maybe the 
same with safes.  I would advise that you shop 
around, do some legwork, rather than depending on
what this guy says, unless he is a friend and you 
know that the bond of trust between you would 
assure that he is giving you the straight story.

#(3) I've seen a few gun safe ads. in the Shotgun News. Anyone has had
#    experiences with them? Any disadvantages to buy a safe from them?

In a way, you are always buying things like this
"mail order" ("truck order"?) since they are rare
to buy from stock.  You can order them directly 
from the manufarturers; write them for their 
documentation and they will send you color 
glossies of what they build.

#David

Cherry!
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Holding a perp at gunpoint
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:28 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <1992Aug10.164727.11843@csd.brispoly.ac.uk>, th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates) writes:
|> If you have to hold someone at gunpoint. Make them drop their trousers
|> around their ankles (slows them down if they try to run) and
|> make them lie on the floor spread-eagled and face down. Move behind 
|> them out of their view, and away from any potential blow from hands
|> or feet. If they appear to suffer some seizure or complain of
|> feeling ill - beware, it may be a ruse to disarm you.
|> 
|> This situation assumes that you have disarmed the perp. That's
|> the difficult part. That's the part that can get you killed...
|> 
|> -- 
|> *************************************************************************
|> *  Tom Oates  (Bristol Poly, England)    *   DISCLAIMER:-               *
|> *  JANET: th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk    *   I speak only for myself.   *
|> *************************************************************************
|> 

This is *NOT* good advice.

Unless you are a peace officer with power of arrest, you are not concerned
with the perp running away.  Having his pants down around his ankles
might throw his shooting off a bit, but I wouldn't count on it.

You say "Ok, drop your pants".  Perp now has
to move his hands to his beltline and manipulate a buckle.  He then has
to insert one or both thumbs into his beltline to force his pants down
over his hips.  Either action is an excellent cover for drawing a weapon.

Perp makes sudden move you interpret as threatening so you shoot.  In
the inquiry you explain perp was fumbling with his trousers so you shot
him.  The investigator asks "why was he fumbling with his trousers?" and
you say "because I ordered him to do so at gunpoint".  You have just
volunteered to cover your attorney's boat payments for the next
year or so.

Better is "SLOWLY, raise both arms straight above your head with your
fingers fully extended".  The farther his hands are away from anything
that could contain a weapon the more time it will take him to draw one.
You eventually want to get perp on his stomach on the ground with arms
straight out to the side, palms up, legs crossed at the ankles, and
facing away from you.  Moving him from the standing, arms raised position
to the final position should be accomplished one SLOW step at a time,
always keeping his hands as far away as possible from any place he could
have a weapon.

-- 

	- Alan S. Watt
	  High Speed Networking, Yale University
	  Computing and Information Systems
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:31 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Aug12.215347.4972@megatek.uucp> zymurgy.megatek!avf@uunet.UU.NET (Andy Funk) writes:
...
#Before my gunsmith, and others in this newsgroup, strongly advised against
#the foolishness of using WD40 as a cleaner/lubricant/preservative for blued
#firearms, I used it exclusively and liberally for *years* on a blued Mauser
#HSc. This gun still has an absolutely perfect finish. 

#I'm not convinced. I believe that WD40 prevents rust, probably by preventing
#oxygen from being available. How this property might actively attack a rust
#blued firearm is unclear to me.

Me too. The main reason I _never_ use WD40 on a gun is that it is a
penetrating oil. If you get it on your ammo, it is very likely to get into
the case and contaminate the primer. It will then no longer go bang. In
fact, I use WD40 to deactivate primers in cases that I've botched up while
reloading. 






-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:13 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <9208160535.AA26847@relay2.UU.NET> m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY) writes:

#Using said training, my friend attempted to aim the 1911A1 like an
#M-16, with his eye up to the rear sight.
#My scream of "CEASE FIRE" saved his face/eye.

	My contribution: A guy out on the range had just purchased a
Remington 870 in 12ga with a rifled barrel.  He had attached a scope
to the top, and was sighting it in.  I didn't pay him much attention
until I heard a <boom!> <aaaahhhhhh!>.  The poor guy had forgotten
about the recoil and managed to make a circular cut around his eye
as the scope bashed into it.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns fired under water
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:41:04 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <1992Aug12.140253.7985@news.yale.edu> watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:
#
#The author fails to note that in the case of strafing from aircraft,
#the velocity of the bullet when striking the water will be augmented
#by the forward speed of the aircraft, and will therefore carry a
#lethal impact energy to a greater depth than the same gun fired
#while stationary.

Energy should be muzzle velocity + gravity accel. - aerodynamic drag
losses.  (Muzzle velocity includes aircraft forward speed, btw.)

At any reasonable range (from the pilots point of view, anyway :} ),
the stationary test wouldn't be too far off from combat effects.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ole@delab.sintef.no (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS v Mini-30 ammo
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:25:12 GMT
Organization: SINTEF DELAB, Trondheim, Norway.

As far as I know, it is perfectly safe to shoot military ammo in the
Mini-30, even though it has a .308 bore, whereas the SKS and the AK
has a .311 bore. This is because the Ruger Mini-30 has a throat which
is long enough to swage down the bullet without any significant
overpressure.

Anyone else having more information on this?
From: fsmar@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Handguns .. Whats best?
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:37 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks


        I like pistols that will stop anything .. .454 comes to mind.
But what is there in semi-autos with at least a 12 rnd. clip?  
Preferably at least a 9mm.

__
runion@dec1.uafcs.alaska.edu     or    fsmar@acad3.alaska.edu
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: lost or stolen during flight!
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Aug19.150312.22506
Organization: Western Washington University

JEFFD@elmer.hls.com (Dempsey, Jeff) writes:

#I decided to post this after thinking about the event that happened while I 
#was on a three week trip.  I was on the last leg of my trip from Atlanta to 
#Chicago when a bag of mine did not appear on the conveyor at my destination.
#The case contained a Glock model 21 .45 caliber pistol.  Also in the case 
#was my holster made by MinuteMan Technologies and my FFL.  I was one of the 
#first people to the baggage claim area and did not see my case
#come out on the conveyor belt the entire time I was there.  The serial number
#for my pistol is VG184US.  The likelyhood of American Airlines finding this
#case is nil.  They will process a claim and I will be reimbursed, but that is
#not as important as what or where that pistol is now.  I am having a curtesy
#report filed by the local police that will go out and id the pistol as stolen.
#I hope thay will find it, but that is a far fetched idea.

	The news said a bunch of baggage handlers and others at Ohare in 
Chicago were busted because they had been stealing guns and other things from
baggage for years.   This was a couple of months ago.  I'm sure they are
still at it, always have been, always will be. 

	If I flew to Ohare or anywhere with a gun, It would certianly be
insured for at least the retail replacement price.

#If there is any information please contact me @ Jeffd@hls.com or call me
#at (408)925-2634.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: ems@Apple.COM (Mike Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings...
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:54:56 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA



I was pondering the statement that Fiocci had non-Lead primers (and 
resolving to find them somewhere since I don't like breathing lead
fumes and would like to get some of those primer powered plastic
bullets for indoor use ... and sometimes get a pretty good whiff
of smoke in my face at the range, too) when I started thinking about
the bullets ...

After a while with the Periodic Chart, I had a fairly limited set of
candidates for a 'non-lead' bullet.

It looks to me like an 'all tin' bullet would be workable (maybe using
lead free solder?  95% tin 5% antimony.) for a light bullet.  (a 158 grain
lead bullet would be a 101 grain tin bullet).

It also looks like maybe some kind of Bismuth/Indium alloy might work
too, and still be 'heavy', but I don't have much info on the toxicity
of bismuth or indium, and less info on costs or availability.

Tin solder is running about $8/lb.  Is there anything else that would
prevent me from casting some non-toxic bullets, other than cost?  

Does anyone have a harness number for tin?  for tin solder w/5% antimony?

I know that Zinc bullets have been made, but they were VERY hard and
would be classed as body armour defeating (and, thus, Politically Incorrect
here in the Free State of California ;-)  Does anyone know if a tin/zinc
alloy bullet would be workable ( and if zinc is cheaper than tin ...)?

Is this quest for the non-toxic bullet a dead end that has already
been explored?

Last, I got a look at Thallium...  while the specific gravity at 11.85 is
good, and the melting point of 303.5 C is right, and the description 
as a 'soft, malleable' metal is right, it takes a wicked twist.

This stuff looks like a great assasins material... The description goes
on to say:  'A soft, malleable, highly toxic metallic element, used
in rodent and ant poisons '... 

Can you imagine what a bullet designed to fragment and shed mass would
do to someone?  Yikes!  I just hope the stuff is hard to come by ...
or toxic to the person doing the casting ... or something ...  I can
imagine that the CIA, ex-KGB, et. al. have already looked into it and
rejected it... I hope ...  (or maybe it isn't quite as toxic as the 
dictionary makes it sound...)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ...!sun!apple!ems

'If you can dream it, you can do it'  Walt Disney

This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything. (Including but
not limited to: typos, spelling, diction, logic, and nuclear war)
From: fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beginner's question about caliber
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:40:57 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

In article <9208112041.AA27839@network.ucsd.edu> mbh@sdphu3.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington) writes:
#For example, I can see that the bullet size increases from .22 to .45
#But, how does one convert that number into inches or millimeters?  Where
#do 9mm handguns fit in?  I mean are they larger or smaller than a .45?

The caliber is the diameter of the bullet, in inches (usually... sometimes
the number given is a little off, for example .357 and .38 are really the
same size, even though the numbers claim to be .023" off.)

A 9mm is, in English units, about .35 caliber (though the actual power
depends on the amount of powder in the round: .357 has much more than 
9mm, and, I think, .38 a little less.)

More importantly, the shape of 9mm (rimless) is better suited to an
semiautomatic firearm than to a revolver.

#Also, I've picked up a copy of the _Shooter's Bible_.  When talking
#about caliber, it frequently adds suffixes like LR, ACP, Parabellum,
#Magnum, Special, etc.  What do these terms mean?

Generally, they don't mean much more than brand names: Long Rifle, "For War"
(Latin, Para Bellum), etc. "Magnum" however, does have a specific meaning:
a larger cartridge, more powerfull than the "average" round of the same
size.

#One last question:  What's the difference between single action and
#double action?

A pistol requires two actions to be preformed before firing: The hammer
must be cocked, and then released. The terms refer to what the trigger
does: A single action pistol will only release the trigger (fire the 
gun). Pulling the trigger of a double action will both cock the hammer
and release it, though at the cost of a longer or stiffer trigger pull.

In a revolver, a single action is a disadvantage: Since the trigger does
not cock the hammer, it must be cocked by hand between each shot. There aren't
many modern single action revolvers...
In a automatic, a single action is (usually) an advantage: The action will
automatically cock the hammer, and the trigger need only release it (which
allows a lighter trigger pull, and better accuracy.)

						       Frank Crary
						       UC Berkeley
						       (will be
						       CU Boulder
						       in a week...)
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:28 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <rani.713990042@barsoom> rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen) writes:

#In a fit of thoughtlessness, I managed to abuse my friend's Browning HP
#in the above mentioned fashion at the range today, whereupon a bystander
#offered the following enlightenment:
#-'What you just did equals at least 1000 shots' worth of wear to the gun.'
#I am fully aware that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a no-no,
#but I'm curious to the REAL amount of wear it contributes.

Well, the first thing to do is to ask the bystander to cite his sources. 
This'll give him something to do.  8-)

I can't tell you if it's equivalent to 1000 rounds' worth of wear.  I know
people who do not believe this and who always drop their slides on empty
chambers.  I think they are very stupid but unfortunately none of them has
broken an underlug yet nor do I see any obvious signs of damage.  I expect
to see damage some day, though.

What happens is that the slide is not slowed by having to chamber a round.
So it hits the back of the barrel with full speed.  These two continue 
together until the underlug of the barrel runs into the axle of the slide
stop.  At this point the assembly of slide and barrel comes to a sudden
halt.  What will happen eventually is that either the underlug will break,
especially a weaker underlug like the 1911's, or the slide stop axle's
hole will be elongated.  The axle itself has some spring to it and serves
to reduce the shock of the impact.

Extra-heavy recoil springs have this very same effect because the slide has 
lots of kinetic energy left over even after chambering a fresh round. Many
reputable gunsmiths check trigger jobs by holding the gun very lightly and
letting the slide slam shut.  This represents a worst case so if the
trigger's inertia is enough to set off the gun, this test will show it.

In conclusion, I don't think this error is as serious as many people say it
is, but I still wouldn't do it as a regular practice.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: kohn%ICSI.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Philip Kohn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Calico Model 110 .22LR
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:35:51 GMT
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.

My gun book shows the Calico Model 110 as holding
100 shots in a helical magazine.
Does anyone know anything about this pistol?

Thanks