Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Car Jack (kinda long)
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Date: 10 Jan 93 02:56:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


This particular topic(s) just got a good going-over in rec.guns, so 
anyone extremely interested might be best-off by trying to search for
back articles.

Now, I wasn't paying total attention to all that was said, so I'll just
try to put in a little of what I got from the thread.  If anyone from
r.g sees me making a fool out of myself, please post a followup.

drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard A. Drury) writes:
>psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
>>
>>I don't think these issues have anything to do with law.  If I were committed
>>to carrying a gun in the car, I would do so with or without the law on my
>>side.  My life (and anyone else's) is more important than the law as it
>>pertains to gun restrictions.  

This I must admit to agreeing to.  Luckily, the laws in Pennsylvania 
don't prohibit this, so I don't have to worry about legal complications, 
should I decide to carry.  Not owning a car does tend to make it a moot
point for me, though...  If the laws in your area don't allow it, make
your own decisions; I am not advising the committing of any sort of 
illegal act (and yes, this is my disclaimer).

>Well, judging from the value to put on practice (versus mere 
>babbling), I guess it is safe to assume that you not only
>advocate carrying a gun in the car as the "optimal solution" to
>the problem of carjacking--you actually carry one in your own
>car.  I forsee some practical problems with this, and am curious
>about how you handle them.
>
>For instance, where exactly do you keep the gun while you are
>driving?  I imagine you wouldn't want it right out in plain
>sight, say beside you on the front seat.  That could turn a
>routine traffic stop (a lot more likely for most of us than a
>carjacking) into a real ordeal.  But, if you stow the gun away
>in the console or glove compartment, then it is not really going
>to help you much if you need it to deploy it against a sudden,
>unexpected threat.  So, do you carry your gun on your person
>while driving?  In a holster, pocket, waistband?

One r.g poster, who lives in an area where open carry is legal, but
concealed carry illegal, fastens the passenger-side seatbelt and 
attaches his holstered pistol to it; in the event of a traffic stop, 
his plan is to place the holstered pistol on the dashboard in front of
himself on the dashboard, all the way up against the windshield.  The
cop's going to see it, so no problem.

Traffic stops also got their own thread recently, revolving around the
question of whether or not to inform the officer of the presence of a
(concealed) firearm.  That thread was pretty involved, and I'm not
going to attempt to do it justice.  So, consult back posts if interested.

As for where to carry it, last week, I borrowed a friend's car, to 
experiment.  What seemed to work best FOR ME, considering a right-handed 
individual in the driver's seat: either in a shoulder holster,
or in a cross-draw position (for righties, the gun is holstered on the 
left side, pointing more-or-less backward, and situated for 'draw'ing 
a'cross' the body).  Your mileage may vary.

>Another thing I'm curious about is what you do with the gun when
>you leave the car.  When you get out, do you leave your gun
>behind in the car, or do you conceal it on your person and carry
>it around with you at work, school, shopping, or wherever you
>were driving to in the first place?

Should I ever apply for a CCW, and subsequently carry a firearm with
me, it will be on my person at all times.  If there is enough danger
to be carrying in the first place, there is too much danger for your
gun to ever be out of your reach, IMHO.  

Leaving a gun in a car (talking about this scenario) is always a bad
idea.  Should someone break in, or even take the whole car, there 
goes a gun, and it is definitely in bad hands.  It's a sign of
poor judgement, IMHO.

>One last question, have you ever fired your gun inside a car?  I
>understand that, without hearing protection, the noise made by
>firing a typical self defense load in a confined space like a
>car is deafening.  Literally.  Have you got a workaround for
>this, or are you just figuring better hearing-impaired than
>carless?

Yes, it's own thread recently, too...  Yes, you are probably better
off firing, and risking hearing loss.  The medical profession is
getting better at treating hearing loss.  The second reason is even
better: I've heard of enough carjackings turning into homicides to 
want to trust the "street gentlemen" to let me go after having seen
their faces.

The general theory I picked up from r.g (if i've got it right) is that 
it is better slower bullets have less potential for hearing damage than
faster-moving bullets.  Anything Magnum is WAY BAD.  Basically, if 
you're in the situation, and decide you need to pull the trigger, 
get yourself out alive first, and then worry about your ears.

>>If you're faced with a car jacking, you have a
>>life/death situation on your hands.  Sure, the Gandhian approach is
>>superior--turn over the car and let them drive away.  However, this is not how
>>these events are taking place.  
>>
>>In the end, it is a struggle for control, and
>>often the perpetrators are coming to the car with weapons in hand.  
>
>Actually, in the vast majority of armed carjacking cases, this is
>exactly what is taking place.  The world isn't suddenly swarming
>with Gandhi clones or anything like that.  But most people, when
>faced with an armed assailant who wants their car, are doing the
>prudent thing.  Not liking it much, but doing it.
>
>>I say kill
>>them all before they even get to the door handle.  Just blast away and
>>hopefully don't shoot too many innocent bystanders.
>
>Well, what can I say to that.  My inclination these days is to
>think that restrictions on firearm use and ownership are
>possibly excessive.  That people might just be able to handle
>the right to keep and bear arms with a little less help from the
>legislature.  Then I read stuff like this...

I agree with your above paragraph, Richard.  Sadly, I too regret 
encountering sentiments of this nature.

--

			  David Christopher Winters

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