From: dsh@odin.uucp (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Larry Margolis calls the Alan Guttmacher Institute a pack of liars 
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:49:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov06.212456.123893@watson.ibm.com> 
margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:

>hatcher@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU writes:

>> Now I have to ask the critical question before we go wild here talking
>> about whether it is "right" to allow the broad definition of health
>> (Doug seemed to be implying that allowing exemptions for pyschological
>> health was somehow a "bad" thing):

> Doug is trying
> to get people to believe that this means that a woman in her ninth
> month could be bummed out because of a bad hair day and decide to
> get an abortion, and this would be allowed under the same exception.

I never said anything like this.  I've told you before that I've  
never made this argument.  For the last time, STOP assigning this 
argument to me.

>>  Could someone please cite some statistics on the frequency and/or
>>  absolute number of cases where a post-viable abortion is granted
>>  for (1) any reason (2) reasons outside strict physical health?

> There's about 100 third-trimester abortions performed *per year* in
> the US, and these are *only* done for serious health reasons.

There are several thousand abortions performed per year past
the 21st week of pregnancy.  Viability starts around the
22nd to 23rd week of pregnancy.  Many of these children are
killed because they're handicapped or because they're mentally 
retarded.  

>        Only three or four doctors perform late-stage abortions,
>        said Patricia Anderson with the National Abortion Federation.

The National Abortion Federation is a coalition of abortion
providers. 

>        "There are a handful of third-trimester abortions that are
>        done in instances of serious fetal anomalies or in the case
>        of a pregnancy threatening a woman's life.  And only under
>        those conditions," she said.

What's your definition of third trimester? 24 weeks? That's a little
past the point of viability. 

>> If there aren't any (or many) cases then PLEASE let's not have some
>> great big debate.

> There's no "great big debate"; Doug knows what the truth is, but he
> still tries to scare people with his lies.

I've quoted from the same source which you've used above -- the
Alan Guttmacher Institute.  Here's what they have to say about
Roe and Doe:

   "Summary and Analysis of State Laws Relating to Abortion",
   Barbara Kaiser, Harriet F. Pilpel, and Eve W. Paul,
   in Family Planning, Contraception, Voluntary Sterilization
   and Abortion: An Analysis of Laws and Policies in the United
   States, Each State and Jurisdiction.

   A Report of the Office for Family Planning
   Health Services Administration
   U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare
   1978

   Prepared by the Alan Guttmacher Institute

  "The landmark events in establishing the basic law governing abortion
   in the United States were the January 1973 decisions of the United 
   States Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade[1] and Doe v. Bolton[2]. [...]

   The Roe and Doe decisions have these results:  [...]

   (3) After the fetus is viable, a State may regulate in its interest,
   even to the extent of prohibiting abortion unless to save the life
   or health (including the mental health) of the woman. [...]

   Roe and Doe held the right to abortion to be a fundamental right,
   but the decisions also involved the medical profession in the
   decision-making process. A corollary is that a woman's decision
   to exercise her rights is in part dependent on the availability
   of health institutions and professionals willing to perform 
   abortions."


I guess this means you think the Alan Guttmacher Institute is a pack 
of liars. 


>Larry Margolis


Doug Holtsinger

Newsgroups: talk.abortion