From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty, for or against?
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:01:56 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <HANS.92Oct6120249@ravn.iesd.auc.dk> by hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel):

> 
> In <Bvo0wq.Hz1@NCoast.ORG> cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) writes:
> > In <HANS.92Oct5155640@ravn.iesd.auc.dk> by hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans
> Huttel) wrote: 
> >> I would urge anyone in favour of the death penalty to think of the
> >> British cases of the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six. As we all
> >> know now, these 10 people were innocent and had been framed by police
> >> officers seeking promotion. After the appalling IRA pub bombings in
> >> 1974 there was widespread support for the idea of reintroducing the
> >> death penalty in the UK. If the death penalty had been reintroduced,
> >> ten innocent people would have lost their lives. It was only because
> >> of British TV that the truth was eventually accepted.
> >> 
> >> Is that really the sort of risk we are willing to take ?
> >
> > Yes.  Of course why are YOU willing to take the risk of imprisoning an 
> > innocent man?  After all, he could be raped or even murdered in prison.  
> 
> I have heard quite a few horror stories about U.S. prisons. Even
> though Danish prisons can be very brutal places, people do not get
> murdered there. I have a feeling that there is something horribly
> wrong with the U.S. prison system. The death penalty only serves to
> brutalize this already brutal system even more.

The death penalty has nothing to do with racists and drug gangs killing each 
other in prison, or rather, they don't do it BECAUSE there's a death penalty.

> Let me repeat my rhetorical question: Why shouldn't all criminals in
> the U.S. be executed ? Surely crime should be punished, and (by the
> quoted argument) killing a criminal will certainly prevent him/her
> from being raped or murdered in prison.

For the same reason that you don't amputate to treat a paper cut.  It's a
complete nonsequitor.  Do you equate mass murder and check forgery?  Do you
consider Charles Manson and a homeless person who steals a pack of pimento
loaf moral equals?

> > What keeps them from doing it regarding imprisonment?  What prevents an Alton
> > Coleman from continuing to kill in prison?  Termination of his icecream 
> > ration?  What if he promises to kill one inmate or guard for each serving of
> > rocky road he misses?  Will you kill him then?  Or will you impose life in
> > solitary confinement?  Wouldn't some people consider THAT cruel too?
> 
> Serial killers are almost without exception mentally ill. Is the best
> thing that the system can do really to kill mentally ill people, no
> matter how repulsive and dangerous we may find their acts ?

Says who?  Quite a few of them, in fact a large percentage are judged 
competant to stand trial.  To whit:  Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne
Gacy, Alton Coleman, Henry Lee Lucas....

> (An aside: Denmark has a maximum security mental hospital for
> extremely dangerous criminal patients. Such people are kept in
> solitary confinement.)

Isn't that cruel and unusual?  I'll bet the ACLU thinks so.

> I have a strong feeling that the U.S. penal system is unable to (or
> does not want to) deal with mentally ill people who commit crimes.

I suspect that your definition of "mentally ill" is not clinically valid.  Just
because somebody kills, doesn't make them "insane".  I suspect that you don't
know the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath.

> There are a number of mentally retarded people on death row in the
> U.S., some of them African-American. I would urge all netters to read
> the Amnesty International report on capital punishment in the U.S. for
> more details on this.

And did they kill people in cold blood?

> > All of the above aside, what about when there is NO doubt?
> 
> But how do we know ? What constitutes absence of doubt ? For several
> years, virtually nobody in Britain had any doubts that the Guildford
> Four and the Birmingham Six were IRA terrorists. 

Numerous eye witnesses?  Is there ANY doubt that Hennard shot up the Luby's
cafeteria in Killeen, Texas?  There's NO doubt that Alton Coleman went on a 
killing and child molestation spree across the midwest.  In fact there was
CONSIDERABLE doubt regarding the actions of the British police.

> The death penalty can be used for political ends. Think of South
> Africa or China, just to name two modern-day examples. Of course this
> is almost always denied by the regimes who use this practice - the
> people on death row are... criminals.

So can imprisonment.  Do you want to abolish that too?  What should the fines
for rape and murder be?

> To sum up: The death penalty is a quick fix that solves no problems.

Wrong.  The death penalty is a PERMANENT fix to the problem of recidivism by
murderers.  Can you name an excuted murderer who has subsequently killed?

> If the penal system isn't fair and unprejudiced, innocent people will
> lose their lives. In a country with social inequalities, the death
> penalty will affect some groups of people disproportionately. It can
> be used _against_ these groups of people. Finally, the death penalty
> is irreversible. What good is aquittal once you are dead?

So, it's ok to have a biased justice system so long as you don't have a death
penalty?

What good is 20 life sentences to somebody who continues to kill?

> A much better solution would be also to do something serious to reduce
> the crime rate but that would involve improving society and analyses
> of the causes of crime. However, for some reason that doesn't seem to
> be an important issue these days.

Another good solution would be to recognize that some people are just BAD.
Sometimes they do things that deserve death.


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