HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: etxtdi@exu.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:42:38 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article <1992Nov2.144733.4850@midway.uchicago.edu> pab1@midway.uchicago.edu
Paul Braier writes:
>
>
>More proof is on the way. I am still compiling 'the Book of Yaakov' in which
>I chronicle all the miracles which (by next century or so) will be attributed
>to him. The book is called 'the Book of Yaakov' after my Hebrew name. I am
>told that 'the Book of Paul' is already taken (oh, well!). Some of his
>(Howard L.'s) miracles are truly astounding, but I won't give any sneak
>previews!
>
>As for the seeming discrepency with the name 'Levene', its all explained in
>the book how that came about, how the cover-up was necessary in order to
>ensure H.L.'s survival. It was even prophesied in the book of Bereshis
>(Genesis), but details can wait until the book is released.
>
>
>

I expect an explosive growth of the Howard Church the following century and
for the coming 2000 years continusly growing Howard Churches around the globe.
What Howard stands for and what the claims he is said to have made will never
cease to challenge the minds of both his sceptics as well as his followers.
Healings in Howards name will continue to take place everywhere.

/Tord I.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Humanism Is A Religion
Organization: University of Turku
Distribution: alt
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:15:18

Humanism has been declared a religion in the Humanist Manifestos
I (p.3&7) and II (p.13&24) and in the Supreme Court case Torcaso
v. Watkins 1961.

- Laura
--
"They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and
strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and
be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."       Yeshaya 45:24-25

"Achen Ata El mistater Elohei Israel Moshia."  Yeshaya 45:15
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: NCS--JOHN 2:1-25
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 8:27:22 -0500 (EST)

                     --- JOHN 2:1-25 ---
 

  JESUS CHANGES WATER TO WINE
  ===========================

John 2:1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee.
Jesus' mother was there,

John 2:2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the
wedding.

John 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have
no more wine."

John 2:4 "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time
has not yet come."

John 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

John 2:6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews
for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

John 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so
they filled them to the brim.

John 2:8 Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the
master of the banquet." They did so,

John 2:9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been
turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though
the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the
bridegroom aside

John 2:10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and
then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but
you have saved the best till now."

John 2:11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at
Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put
their faith in him.


  JESUS CLEARS THE TEMPLE
  =======================

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and
brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

John 2:13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went
up to Jerusalem.

John 2:14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and
doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

John 2:15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the
temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the
money changers and overturned their tables.

John 2:16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How
dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your
house will consume me."

John 2:18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you
show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise
it again in three days."

John 2:20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build
this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?"

John 2:21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

John 2:22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled
what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that
Jesus had spoken.

John 2:23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many
people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

John 2:24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all
men.

John 2:25 He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what
was in a man.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Baruchu et Adonai Hamavorach
From: dnicol@cstp.umkc.edu
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 16:39:11 GMT
Organization: UM - Kansas City, Computer Science

Hello, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this posting --

I've come up with a blessing to say before logging on to the system:


Blessed are you O lord our God ruler of the universe who enables us to
make wonders out of sand.

My Hebrew isn't very good, but I imagine it should be something like
"...marvelous sandcastles"  because the idea of a computer being a sandcastle,
on the beach, between tides, is I think a powerful image.






The other thing is, I realized that I would read weekly torah portions if
there was a distribution list which sent them e-mail.  I don't know
how to go about getting registered for such a list, if there is one.
If there isn't one, to whom should the idea be suggested?  Who might think
the chore of typing Torah into e-mail a Mitzvah enough to do it?  Are there
on-line bibles already which could be accessed?  A program to access the 
correct portion every week, perhaps? Easy-to-read weekly installments are
definately the way to go, and it would be a fun way to read it.


Sort of a cyber-gogue.




     I don't get to news much, so please respond to these ideas via e-mail.


B'Shalom,

David Nicol, "cyber-rabbi" (non-ordained)

Dnicol@vax2.cstp.umkc.edu
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:19:50 GMT

In article <9211061154.AA13990@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>Laura Manninen asserted:
>
>>  And there were different opinions about it. R. Hillel accepted
>> a ger without the "Oral Torah", whereas R. Shammai didn't. 
>
>Source?
>

This seems to be the standard misinterpretation of the story of the
nonJew who came to be taught the entire torah while standing on one
foot.  Both realized that he was mocking them and came to make fun
of the Torah.  Shammai felt that the proper response was to reject
this mockery and uphold the honor of the Torah.

Hillel took a different approach.  He quoted the pasuk "veahavta
leraiacha kamocha" (You shall love your neighbor as yourself).  He
then said, "This is the basis for all the Torah, the rest is
commentary.  *NOW GO AND STUDY*".

He didn't accept the ger "without the oral Torah" he took a
different approach to teaching him the entire Torah.  He felt that
once the person began to study he would understand the meaning and
the necessity of the entire torah (both oral and written).  THe
operative words are in the last sentence which most retellings of
this story leave out.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Subject: Re: Messianic Prophecy.
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:12:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.160108.1@vax1.umkc.edu> tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>> Isaiah went around with buttocks bared to show what would happen
>> to Egypt.

>	Can you give me a scriptural reference for this? Could this possibly
>be the firrst human instance of mooning?

More like flashing.  It's in Isaiah 20 at the beginning of the chapter.
Also look for something similar at the beggining of Micah.

Link Hudson.

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:46:24 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <9211060339.AA12234@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>
>Steve Warren writes:
>
>> Well, technically he was Saul when he was a Pharisee, but it was
>> the same man.  Do you deny that he was a Pharisee?
>
>Yes.

You argue that he does not hold to Pharisean conventions, but Paul
himself stated that he considered his education as a Pharisee to
be dung.  He once was a Pharisee, but he was most definitely not a
Pharisee when he wrote the epistles.  Demonstrating that he did not
act like a Pharisee is simply proof that the change he was declaring
in Yeshua was genuine and effective in himself.  No one who trusts
in Yeshua remains the same.

As far as being a henchman for the High Priest, far from it; Saul
was motivated by an intense zeal such that he was willing to use
whatever authority existed in the land in order to have permission
to root out the followers of the way.  He was not acting on behalf
of the Priests; he was acting on behalf of his own zeal and concern
for the nation.  If this happened to coincide with the desires of
the Priesthood then so be it.  He was not alone among the Pharisees
of that day, although you may wish to distance the Pharisees from
that outbreak of persecution.  If other Pharisees participated in
the same way then your argument is shown to be fallacious.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Conspiracy
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:35:02 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Nov4.070916.6775@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> 21010JIS@MSU writes:
>------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
           [... good article deleted...]
>
>Joe Scully
>(A Jack Kemp Republican, bleeding heart conservative)

Me too, Joe.

Grace and Peace,
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Date: 6 Nov 1992 05:54:40 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Laura Manninen asserted:

LM> It's no "conspiracy theory" but a simple fact that the *Pharisaic* sect
|> of Judaism rejected Yeshua and then formed the principles that are in
|>                                   ^^^^
|> contradiction with Messianic Judaism.
|> 

Rob Strom challenged:
| To substantiate this you have to show the sequence you stated above.
| That is, you have to show that:
| 1. Originally the Pharisees accepted your (Christian) definition
|    of Messiah.
| 2. They rejected Jesus as Messiah for some *other* reason.
| 3. They subsequently hid their real reason for rejecting
|    Jesus and manufactured new definitions of Messiah so
|    that they would be appear to be rejecting Jesus on
|    the basis of religious principles.

Laura parries:

> Aw don't be so picky. You've been told the story many times already,
> so what's the use of coming up with questions like the above ?

Because answering those questions would substantiate your charges.


> By the time of Yeshua, the system of works-righteousness has already
> started to develop, and the "Oral Torah" was quite important (although
> its compilation probably included many things that hadn't yet been
> invented).

More charges...

4.  That the oral Torah included many things that hadn't yet been
    invented).


>  And there were different opinions about it. R. Hillel accepted
> a ger without the "Oral Torah", whereas R. Shammai didn't. 

Source?


... 
> The reason to reject Yeshua was and always is the same: people think they
> don't need any Saviour from outside, but think they can trust they own
> "good works"...

Jews pray to G-d to forgive our transgressions and save us from our enemies.
The concept of "save us from original sin" is a Christian idea.

R
From: GREERED@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (*Ed Greer            )
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Date: 6 Nov 1992 13:35:14 GMT
Organization: APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: alf.appstate.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <9211061154.AA13990@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu writes:

> Laura Manninen asserted:
> 
> LM> It's no "conspiracy theory" but a simple fact that the *Pharisaic* sect
> |> of Judaism rejected Yeshua and then formed the principles that are in
> |>                                   ^^^^
> |> contradiction with Messianic Judaism.
> |> 
> 
> Rob Strom challenged:
> | To substantiate this you have to show the sequence you stated above.
> | That is, you have to show that:
> | 1. Originally the Pharisees accepted your (Christian) definition
> |    of Messiah.
> | 2. They rejected Jesus as Messiah for some *other* reason.
> | 3. They subsequently hid their real reason for rejecting
> |    Jesus and manufactured new definitions of Messiah so
> |    that they would be appear to be rejecting Jesus on
> |    the basis of religious principles.
> 
> Laura parries:
> 
> > Aw don't be so picky. You've been told the story many times already,
> > so what's the use of coming up with questions like the above ?
> 
> Because answering those questions would substantiate your charges.
> 
> 
> > By the time of Yeshua, the system of works-righteousness has already
> > started to develop, and the "Oral Torah" was quite important (although
> > its compilation probably included many things that hadn't yet been
> > invented).
> 
> More charges...
> 
> 4.  That the oral Torah included many things that hadn't yet been
>     invented).
> 
> 
> >  And there were different opinions about it. R. Hillel accepted
> > a ger without the "Oral Torah", whereas R. Shammai didn't. 
> 
> Source?
> 
> 
> ... 
> > The reason to reject Yeshua was and always is the same: people think they
> > don't need any Saviour from outside, but think they can trust they own
> > "good works"...
> 
> Jews pray to G-d to forgive our transgressions and save us from our enemies.
> The concept of "save us from original sin" is a Christian idea.
> 
> R
> 
> Are these issues of the heart or strictly an intellectual dual?   
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: pab1@quads.uchicago.edu (paul andrew braier)
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Reply-To: pab1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:20:12 GMT

> pab1@midway.uchicago.edu >Paul Braier writes:
>
> More proof is on the way. I am still compiling 'the Book of Yaakov' in which
> I chronicle all the miracles which (by next century or so) will be attributed
> to him.
> [rest deleted]

> etxtdi@exu.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson) writes:
>
> I expect an explosive growth of the Howard Church the following century and
> for the coming 2000 years continusly growing Howard Churches around the globe.
> What Howard stands for and what the claims he is said to have made will never
> cease to challenge the minds of both his sceptics as well as his followers.
> Healings in Howards name will continue to take place everywhere.

Exactly true. When someone comes across a weird rock formation or tree bole,
they will say it looks like Howard (or his mother), and pray to it. When
humidity condenses on cool stone statues of him, they will say he is crying
and pray to the statue. When people heal (as people do) they will attribute
it to Howard. 'Miracles' to be attributed to him will never cease, because
these things do, in fact, happen...independent of Howard, Jesus, or Ra.

As for 'the Book of Yaakov,' it will only be intellectually challenging
to the Believers in the True Howard, other will see as the fraud it 
will really be. Exactly the same as the so-called 'New Testament.'

-----------------------
Paul A. Braier
pab1@quads.uchicago.edu
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: An Old Question For Robert A. Levene
Date: 5 Nov 1992 21:39:51 -0600
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Steve Warren writes:

> Well, technically he was Saul when he was a Pharisee, but it was
> the same man.  Do you deny that he was a Pharisee?

Yes.

> If so, this is the first time I have seen you make that claim here.

I guess the issue never came up.


> I've never seen anyone deny this.

The Ebionites, for one.  For more info, see Maccoby's _The Mythmaker:
Paul and the Invention of Christianity_.

>  There is no reason to believe
> that he was anything other than what he claimed to be; a Pharisee
> who repented of his hard heart and put his faith in Yeshua after
> a divine encounter with the risen Messiah.

No reason?  

* Employment as a henchman for the quisling Sadducee High Priest
* Citation of the Septuagint in place of the Hebrew Torah
* Much of Romans 7, which starts with fuzzy reasoning and ends
    with the principles of Christianity
* Other examples of a poor grasp of Rabbinic logic
* Espousing Gnostic principles, i.e. cosmic good/evil conflict
* A Gnostic/Hellenistic view of celibacy as a "gift"
* Deification of Jesus as spiritual savior, as per
     standard Tarsian mystery-cults, i.e. Attis.
* The Ebionite view of Paul as a converted Greek
* Paul's own willingness to be "all things to all people"

Were he alive today, I think he's feel right at home
among other Hebrew-Christian posters.

R
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Prophecy.
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:01:08 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

> Isaiah went around with buttocks bared to show what would happen
> to Egypt.
> 
> Link

	Can you give me a scriptural reference for this? Could this possibly
be the firrst human instance of mooning?


Thomas Beaudoin
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Very Old Question For Rob Levene
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:00:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: swarren@convex.com

 SW> Date: 2 Nov 92 20:08:35 GMT
 SW> Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
 SW> Message-ID: <1992Nov2.200835.2677@news.eng.convex.com>
 SW> Newsgroups: alt.messianic

          -=> Quoting Steve Warren to Bill Carlson <=-

 BC>   Ah hum... I hate to be the one to point out the obvious; but
 BC>   Judaism has held that Eliyahu has remained alive for about 3,000
 BC>   years.  That being the case, why is it so hard for you to
 BC>   conceive that Messiah has lived for aprox 2,000?!

 SW> That's right.
 SW> But then you can't test this empirically, can you?  Scripture
 SW> says, concerning Messiah, "I make you a priest forever after the
 SW> order of Melchizadek."  Therefore anyone who does not possess an
 SW> indestructable life *cannot* be Messiah.  For one can hardly be a
 SW> priest forever who is spending his "forever"s in the grave.

     Yes, and what is also interesting, is that the Melektzedek
     Dead Sea Scroll, one finds of this Priest being said that His
     Father is El*him, and that He will judge creation.  Usually,
     one in Judaism sees this referred to as one of Noah's sons.

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Yeshaya 53
Organization: University of Turku
Distribution: alt
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:45:39

There's a quip in translation in Yeshaya 53:2; the word translated as
'beauty' is 'toar' in Hebrew, and when used of a person it always 
means 'title' or 'degree'. The sentence 'Lo toar lo v'lo hadar' should 
thus be translated 'He had no degree and no glory'.

1:  Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD 
    been revealed ?

2:  He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of
    dry ground. ==> He had no degree or glory <== to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
 
3:  He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar 
    with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was 
    despised, and we esteemed him not. 

4:  Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we 
    considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 

5:  But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our 
    iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and
    by his wounds we are healed. 

6:  We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his 
    own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7:  He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he
    was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her 
    shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

8:  By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of
    his descendants ? For he was cut off from the land of living; for
    the transgressions of my people he was stricken.

9:  He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his
    death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his
    mouth.

10: Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and
    though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his 
    offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper
    in his hand.

11: After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be
    satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities. 

12: Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will 
    devide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life
    unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore 
    the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 

- Laura
--
"They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and
strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and
be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."       Yeshaya 45:24-25

"Achen Ata El mistater Elohei Israel Moshia."  Yeshaya 45:15
Newsgroups: alt.messianic