From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Education (Re: Questions about the TEN POINT PARTY PROGRAM.)
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:04:50 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <ISBELL.92Sep29135346@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:

>Maybe I'm not asking the questions right.  One of the things that
>worries me is that some of the "choice"  proponents haven't really
>thought this thru:  evaluate, if you don't mind, how these various
>choices and approaches to the problems above will actually change the
>current distribution beyond "the Free Market(tm) will just make it
>work".  After ten years, will we basically have the same set of school
>options with the kids who have it worse now having it worse then?
>What are the short term costs?  The long term benefits?

I'm not really sure I understand the question, but I'll give a shot anyway.
There will be a short period of turmoil.  How great the turmoil is and
how long it lasts will depend on the type of program and the phase in
period.
The system I favor would be to give each child (or the child's parent) a
voucher that is equal to about 1/2 to 2/3's the amount the school
district currently pays to school each child.  I pick this amount because
I estimate that 1/2 to 1/3 of education dollars are currently being
wasted. (Others will probably disagree.)  Another method might be to
survey the local private schools and use their current tuitions as
a guide.
The problem arises that there will not be enough private schools
for all of the students who will bail out of the public schools.
I have enough faith in the market that I believe that if there is
a demand, the schools will be built.

Options after 10 years.  Well since the current options are private for
those who can afford it and public for those who can't, I don't see
how we can do much worse then this.

Short term costs.  The public school buildings will have to be disposed of,
but maybe they can be sold to people who want to start a private school.
That would help to speed up the transition.  The teachers could also be
hired by the new schools.  I don't believe it is the teachers who are
at fault, I believe it is the system that can destroy the creativity in
even the best mind.

Long term benefits.  A better education for all.  I believe the cost will
ultimately go down, but it may not.

>What are the *REAL* problems with our education system.  From where do
>they come?  Do vouchers, choice or whatever address all of these?
>None of these? Some of these?  Does it provide us with the same system
>at lower cost?  A better system for more money?  Will it in all
>likelihood increase the average but widen the range?

One of the real problems with our current system is the one size fits all
methodology that has been adopted by the education establishment.
Vouchers will definitely help this problem.
Another problem is a beaurocracy whose main goal has become self preservation
rather than the childrens education.
Vouchers will help this problem by giving parents the option to refuse to
help fund this beast.
I believe the odds are in favor of a better education for less money, but I
also believe that a better education for the same money is the worst that
could happen.

Increase the average but widen the range. (?) Are you talking about the
quality of education for individual students?
I believe that the quality of education that each child gets will still
depend largely on the motivation of the parents.  Children with motivated
parents will still be better of than the rest.  But access to enough
money to afford private schools will no longer be as great a factor.

>If the end result will be a more "moral" system that isn't much better
>than what we have now, then what's the point?  What is our real goal?

I believe the result will be a moral system that is much better than what
we have now.  That is the real goal.

>This is, after all, alt.politics.liberterian, not
>talk.politics.theory.  As such, proponents must provide at least a
>sketch of the transition plan and the likely short & long term costs.

>What are they?  In the real world, why would I care to vote
>libertarian if they are mroe concerned with the theory than the
>practice?  Ready to accept in free market approach as an end unto
>itself without worry of the impact or the methods for phasing the new
>systems in?

If you believe that government can make better decisions about how to
run your life than you can, I would not expect you to vote libertarian.
If on the other hand you believe that you are the best arbiter of your
own fate ...

I believe that most voucher plans have some kind of phase in mechanism.
I personally don't feel that the phase in will be all that painfull,
except to those who have gotten used to living at the public trough.
Currently most of the debate has been about whether a voucher system
is a good idea or not.  Once the idea of vouchers has been accepted
then we will argue about which one is best and phase in plans.

>|Under a market system those schools that do the best job of teaching
>|kids will attract more kids and become more profitable.  Other
>|schools will begin to adopt portions of the successfull schools
>|program.

>This is an assertion.  I don't mind it, but surely you have a more to
>support it?

Experience.  The free market has successfully provided many other
quality products.  The mechanism has played itself out many times
previously, I see no reason to assume that education as a product is
any different.

I'd argue that for rural America this whole system will
>have no effect anyway--many areas only have one school and there's no
>real profit reason to start a new one.

This is a problem, but what percentage of students would fall in this
category.  I don't see any reason to prevent the vast majority of
students who could benefit from vouchers from doing just because a small
percentage will not be able to.  But I believe that even in this case
competition will still help.  The school system will be able to watch
the rest of the country, and be able to pick and choose from those
programs that appear to be doing well.  Also the mere fact that
somebody *could* start an alternate school if they wanted to will force
the administrators to stay on their toes.
Small towns often have only one grocery store, gas station, hardware
store, etc.

In the case of some inner city
>neighborhoods, unless you provide for transportation costs, etc, some
>of the inhabitants are "trapped" in their immediate areas.

I would have no problem with the city providing funds for transportation.
BTW, high population density actually makes it easier to start up
alternative schools.

Why would
>the schools that are there be forced to improve (to take an earlier
>analogy, the curent supermarkets don't bother to improve service/lower
>prices because they have a captive market)?

Why would the schools improve?  Because if they didn't they no longer
would have any students.

Why would an enterprising
>school-maker want to set up shop for the presumbably high short-term
>costs when they can snuggle away in suburbia and charge prices above
>the vouchers and have to deal with less problems?

Because someone already beat him to the suburbia market.  Once the
suburbia market reaches saturation point with schools, excess supply
will drive down the cost of education.  Someone who wants to start
a new school can go to an area with already sufficient supply and
try to muscle out one of the established players, or he can find
a new, under served part of the market.  If an inner city school
can *DEMONSTRATE* that their costs are substantially higher,
(taxes, security etc.) I have no problem with allowing a higher
voucher payment to students who go to these schools.  They
would also have to demonstrate that this market is underserved
because of these problems.

>|Those programs that work will be propogated, those that don't will
>|be abandoned.
>|This is how quality of all involved will go up.

>I dunno, man.

It's worked everywhere else, I see no evidence to assume that education
as a product will be any different.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian