From: prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar)
Subject: Re: More About India
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:27:03 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.072254.16233@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> usubrama@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Uma M Subramanian) writes:

>It didn't seem worthwhile to respond to an article that had nothing but
>sweeping generatlizations and didn't even pretend to offer any factual
>basis (either by way of personal expereince or statistics or female
>friends' experiences). But I guess I'm still not tired of pointing out
>on SCI the vehemence with which many men deny all sexism in Indian
>culture out of  a misguided sense of pride in anything Indian or out of
>vested interest.

I didn't generalize. My article was pointed at some people who wholesomely
concluded that a woman cannot live in India. And I sincerely appreciate
your response to my article. I would also like to point out that I didn't
deny that sexism is present in India and I don't have any vested interests.

>Even though this sounds like a rhetorical question, challenging people to
>produce something that doesn't exist, I'm going to take this question seriously
>and answer it: Yes, I can give you numerous incidents, but it's too
>painful and degrading to do so.

Fine.

>Oh, I now see your concern -- you don't want someone thinking that all Indian
>men are like 'that'. I wonder why such invalid conclusions should bother
>you, especially when you seem to be indulging in a great many of them
>yourself.

First: I don't want people(Indians in USA) critisizing India all the time
and glorifying USA, without trying earnestly to correct the very same problems.
And yes I don't want ANYONE thinking that all Indian men are like 'that'.

Second: I sincerely have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion about me.
I have seen such rash conclusions some guys reached about you sometime back
in the net(I protested that in the net). Now I see you doing the same thing.
I am wondering if any discussion can be had without personal attacks.

>You certainly didn't look around in India. Anyway, rape and sexual assaults
>are so vastly underreported in India due to the taboo associated with it.

Accepted that they are underreported.

>The worst thing in my experience is that fo rmany women, it is not
>possible to tell even family members about such cases for fear of losing
>the little freedom to move around in the city. The reaction in my
>experience has been "I told you not to go out alone" "From now on, you
>can't go out alone"    and you soon learn to never talk abou t this to
>anyone. 

Very hollow argument. I totally disagree on your conclusions.

>If this is the kind of support a woman/girl has at home, one
>can imagine why rapes and assaults are not reported. (BTW, I wonder how
>it is for married Indian women to tell their husbands about such things,
>if the reaction is often one of blaming the wife for "asking for it".)

Yeah accepted. People dig their own grave. As I have told before parents
need to raise their children so that they don't grow up with biases. And
educated people should show that they can lead others to light in such
issues. What happens ? Educated people lead the lot when it comes to
dowry etc.

>I admit I never worked in India, but my experiences in university campuses
>(both from fellow students and male professors and the ubiquitous
>"roadside romeos") has been pretty negative except for those few
>friends and teachers. I have many female friends who work in India, and
>the story is the same. 

Come on now did I say that there is no harrassment in India ? Read my article 
again.

>I hate to ask this futile question: bu twhere do
>you get your "facts" that you so confidently wave around? 

You mean the facts of sexual harrassment in the US. It is all over the place.
T.V, magazines, your University women's center....

>About men going to bars to pick up girls for the night -- yes, there are
>pick up joints, and men AND women go there to pick someone up or to be
>picked up. A woman wouldn't go to one if she doesn't want to pick someone
>up or to be picked up. 

Interesting. You seem to imply American women go to bars to get picked up.
You mean no woman goes to a bar to have a drink ? 

>And there are bars which are decent places to
>hang out at. In my experience, the attention you get from men is not
>threatening in the western context, in general. A man may walk up to
>you and try to strike up a conversation, but I feel I'm in control of
>the situation and polite indifference is enough to put an end to the
>whole business. 

I have seen dirtier scenes.

>And similarly at the workplace -- at the workplace, men
>have a lot more at stake and don't make advances rashly except whre
>there is obvious power imbalance and the infrastructure of the field
>has a lon ghistory of sexual assaults and a toleration for it, such
>as the medical fields. Of course, intimidation based on gender and
>sexual assaults are far too rampant in the workplace in *every* culture
>for women to feel anywhere near safe, but I simply fail to see your
>comparison of US and India in this respect..

Well that's exactly what I tried to say. That no country or culture is
perfect.

>The difference between India and the US is that the attention you
>get from a man is scary and you have to take cover immediately inIndia
>and a woman has to constantly send out messages that she's "a good
>girl". 

What does the term "a good girl" mean ?

>The relative absence of sexual misbehavior towards women in
>rural areas is not because the villagers are liberated when it comes
>to women's issues but because the women there are warped into a mold.

Once again a lot of people are confused. I had said that when people talk
about eve teasing they simply make balanket statements that eve teasing is
there everywhere in India based on their occurrences in the cities.

But I never said that social injustice is not present in villages.

>The pseudo-respect for women in the Indian culture is based on this
>implicit agreement: "woman, don't you create any trouble or else..."

Well Indira Gandhi created enough trouble didn't she ? Where was this
philosophy when she ruled the country ? Didn't people agree that she
was a leader ?

>The attention from men, in this culture, at least in the subculture
>that I am familiar with, is the kind that looks for signals and is
>capable of being stopped at the woman's discretion, and in this
>country, unlike India, a woman is not subjected to flagrant, bestial
>assaults that are a part of her daily life. 

Not true. Just watch the television and you will see how many women in
the USA complain that men simply don't understand the meaning of NO.

>The purpose of these
>unsolicited advances is to keep women in a subservient position by
>sexual intimidation. Ask a woman in htis country how many times she
>has encountered physical, sexual handling by strangers in public and
>compare the figure you get from an Indian woman. 

It might be slightly more in India. 

>I agree with you here (and I've written on this earlier). But,
>The implicit claim here seems to be that Indian educational system
>is not biased in favor of men. Would you care to substantiate that? Girls
>are discriminated at school *and* everywhere else in India to a degree
>that is pathetically blatant to everyone except those who try to
>glorify India at every opportunity.

Yes, I accept that and I repeat that I never said that there is no bias
in India.

>All those men who jump in to stand up for Indian culture when it comes
>to women's issues -- be it arranged marriages and ho wthey affect women,
>the treatment of women, the educational system and how it affects women --
>do us all a favor. If you can't live the life of a woman, try the next best
>thing: talk to some women and listen to what they have to say.

Well my dear friend don't assume things. I have many friends from the opposite
sex and I have talked about all these things. The overwhelming reason that I
have heard from my friends which I also think is right is that our schools 
fail to build an understanding between girls and boys. Most of them don't even
say Hi if they see a member of the opposite sex. Some grow up when they come
to college some never grow up and have their narrow perspectives. 


>I consider myself bicultural at this point, and I have to say as
>an Indian woman I've never enjoyed as much freedom and a sense of 
>equality in interactions with men as I have in this country. Not that
>this is the perfect system for women. Let someone try ot defend the
>American system as the perfect system for women and then you'll see
>what I have to say about that. Inspite of that, I say again that
>Indian culture is cruelly oppressive to women, even without any
>comparison to a system that's far better. 
>All that I've said here is with due apologies to the many male
>Indian individuals I know who're wonderful people. This discussion
>is mainly about the culture and the underlying assumptions in the
>Indian culture that permits this unspeakable phenomenon of public
>sexual assault.
>
>
>Uma Subramanian 


Sincerely yours,
M.P.Premkumar