HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: game system
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:25:55 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:06:17 GMT, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) said:

	Nick> group of gamers, _not_ all gamers.  Some of us do not
	Nick> have a type of character in mind when we start a
	Nick> campaign; we like being surprised.

Then I think you will like the all-random mode of the character
generation process (outline) that I just proposed in another post in
this newsgroup. It will create a character with a lot of background -
stats, a career path - and a lot of tags to hang Real Background onto.

-Magnus


Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - General comments
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<Nov.10.19.13.45.1992.484@thorogood.rutgers.edu>
	<1992Nov12.213244.6943@crd.ge.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 00:29:00 GMT

>>>>> On 12 Nov 92 21:32:44 GMT, (Spike) said:

	Spike> compatible with a core set of rules? As you said, it
	Spike> takes skill and talent to design a good game. Anybody
	Spike> have any?

Not me. I think the sum of all you people out there could do it,
though. I'm convinced we can - we're one hell of a creativity pool. If
we can now only control these outburts of ideas, distill a game
system. That could really be something.

I'm making a new version of the "faq" that I will post in a few days.
I'll have some of the ideas there by then.

-Magnus
From: fxmlk@acad3.alaska.edu (KIENENBERGER MIKE L)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - General comments
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:59:00 GMT

In article <Nov.10.19.13.45.1992.484@thorogood.rutgers.edu>,
morrow@thorogood.rutgers.edu (John Morrow) writes...
> 
>In my opinion, "scaled" systems are not workable beyond a small
>close-knit group of gamers.  Why?  Because no rule is neutral in its
>game effects.  If you include stamina rules, it hurts weak characters
>who could otherwise fight all day but helps strong characters have an
>advantage.  There are a lot of examples of this.  If a players
>character dies because the GM refuses to use OR insists on using
>"Special Rule X" for whatever reason, an argument is going to result.
>You can't hide all these rules from players.  They are going to know
>that "if you don't use the bleeding rules on page 35, my character
>will live" or "if you do use the clotting rules on page 26, my
>character will live", even IF the GM never used those rules before or
>always has.  You can TRY to balance off by saying "you must use benefit
>rule X with hinderance rule Y" but I don't think that is feasable.
>Ideally this would not be a problem but most groups are far from ideal.
>I personally feel that you should pick a style of play and make the 
>rules fit it.

Paranoia handles this really well.  Players never see the rules.  GMs modify
the rules as they go along.  Or just ignore them altogether.

Spike writes,
> The original Paranoia system worked this way [using skill trees which started
> general and built up to more specific skills]. When they did their
> second edition, they changed it, citing player complaints.
> Personally, I like the idea, but I don't think it's playable enough
> to use.

I thought it was an excellent idea.  It was very playable.  I refused to
use the new 2nd edition rules.  And the switch from percentile dice to a
d20 was just moronic.  Luckily, I just fell back to Paranoia Rule #1:  Ignore
the rules. 
=============================================================================
-Mike Kienenberger                       FXMLK@ALASKA           (BITNet)
 Academic Computing                      FXMLK@acad3.alaska.edu (Internet)
 University of Alaska-Fairbanks
 "I'm a computer programmer....<link><link><kludge><kludge> say-no-more!"
From: gulla@Lise.Unit.NO (Anders H}kon Gulla)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Skill and Hit Location
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:42:15 GMT
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <17127@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
> 
> [ discussion of visual hitlocation deleted ]
>
> With a visual system, the players might be likely to be more demanding of the
> precision of an image.  Then again, I haven't tried that method, so I'm just
> speculating.  Do players require more precision with a visual system?
> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca

Bringing the visual cansept into the discussion (I think) I can answer that.  
I have used the Western system in the wild west setting, and it uses the visual
only for missile veapons (throwing something, fireing a gun etc).  For that 
purose it works fine.  If there is doupt (player hits edge of rock ie) its up 
to GM's judgement as most other things in any cosen RPG.  You decide (as GM) 
wether the missile flys off to the left harming some three, hitting the man in
the shoulder (or what ever), blinding the foe with fragments from the stone,
etc.  In melee one uses a hit location table, which is reasonable, since you 
in melee will not have the same way of aiming.
One of the members of Hexagon (our gaming club) uses the Western system
in the Shadowrun world.  He has done some extentions, but all the players 
likes the system, and it works good.

The games I have GM'ed and playd have not had problems with players demanding
too high prescision (sp?), and I have played both with experienced 
'full-time' players, and total novices.

-- 
"Mane, simul atque expergefactus es, Pu" dixit postermo Porcellus,
"quid est primum, quod tecum dicis?"
"Quid mihi in ientaculum paratur? Tu autem quid dicis o Porcelle?"
"Dico: Scire avco, quid magni momenti bodie accidat," dixit Porcellus.
Pu meditabundus adnuit. "Est idem," dixit.
ex Winnie ille Pu.
AH! Gulla
gulla@lise.unit.no
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: Random vs. Point Alloc CharGen
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 06:58:49 GMT

(Spike) writes:

> ...it should be patently obvious to even the socially challenged that, like
> so many issues in the real world, there is *no* right or wrong answer on
> this.

Hey, you've just called Dave Nalle worse than "socially challenged".

I won't argue that.  :-)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:05:08 EST
From: <RDT111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg
 <1di5v4INNggc@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>  <1992Nov8.083753.5173@alf.uib.no>
 <10965@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> <1992Nov9.032158.9364@alf.uib.no>
 <10976@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>

     If we are going to create a net.rpg on this group we have to take things
one step at a time.  At the moment there are alot of mechanic ideas and
skill ideas floating arund and some of them are pretty good, but untill we
take some concrete steps towards deciding whati will be in the game it won't
form a net.rpg
     The first question is should it be multi-genre.  I think it should.
Usually I don't like the multi-genre idea, because it is more difficult to
make a system accurate for two or more genres.  However since this is
being created by many different people, I think that multi-genre will
interest the most people.  Also I don't think anything limited to genre
call itself a net.rpg  (although if some people wanted to form one it
would be a good idea)  When we form a system I think we should take
into consideration how it would work in a few basic genres like fantasy,
sci-fi, and modern.
     As far as organisation goes, here is what I would like to see in
a finished product.  A good system for creating characters and all the
mechanics for learning skills, useing skills, and a combat system,
plus a few things I couldn't think of at the moment :)   Then there
would be a few optional packages attached to deal with magic systems
and anything that would be in only a few genres.  Then there would be
be a few genres worked out to give rules for only that genre.  They
might work out things like lasers, space travel, bionic arms,
armor, and anything else that is only used in that genre.  Of course
this system will probably need some minor adjustments by whoever runs
it, but anyone of rec.games.design should be capable of that.
     Of course now all we need is someone to volunteer to organise
this project.  We can then have a small group to write this stuff up
and organise votes so that we can decide things.
     Comments? Volunteers to organise this?
     I would be willing to be on that small commitee.  :)


Robert Thompson
rdt111@psuvm.psu.edu
The above opinions are not neccesarily those of Penn State.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: net.rpg:  mechanics
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:19:23 GMT

In response to Robert Bridson's article:

Mechanic 1.)  Rolling 2d10 and multiplying the result.

First, this would not allow all probabilities to be rolled.
No prime number above a seven, and no number with prime number
above seven as a factor, may be rolled using this method.
This would mean that the probabilty distribution would be
odd and, probably, difficult to determine.  This, in turn,
would cause problems in determining the success criteria for
given actions.  All in all, I would be against this usage.

Mechanic 2.)  Using a standard 52 card deck (or multiples
	thereof).

This idea is much more interesting.  It does pose a significant
problem in the probablistic side (well in excess of my High School
statistics training), especially if the added ideas are incorporated.
It is, however, something I have never heard or thought of before
in connection with role-playing, and as such, deserves thought.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
                      | and then is heard from no more....'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
		<1992Nov10.181422.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 23:30:57 GMT

Hmmm - some folk think I was saying it won't work because of different
tastes in character generation.  This was not my point at all.
Character generation was merely a recent example of different tastes in
*gaming systems* in general.  (And I don't like *any* form of classes,
even templates or professions ...).

You will have people who disagree with *whatever* you propose, at any
step of the way.  Take skills, for example - are they necessary?  Over
the Edge has no skills and runs quite smoothly.  Yet everyone talks as
if skills are already taken for granted.  What if someone likes OTE
enough to find a skill list clumsy and old-fashioned?

I'll play Doubting Thomas if that will unite everyone just to prove me
wrong :-)  . . . I still don't think you can do it.  Two or three
games, maybe, but not one single net.rpg that will be universally
accepted.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg(s): 'dating' service
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:58:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: charnel.1duk2pINN4f5
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu

Robert J. Hall writes:
>If you want to produce something new and different, why don't you write a
>"Computer-Aided Role-Playing System" (CARPS)? The underlying mechanics would
>all have to be numerical and (probably) object-oriented, but the interface
>could allow the GM to pick and choose which features he or she prefers.
>
>CARPS would have tools for Character Design, Story Generation, Combat
>Simulation, Mapping software, etc.

Hmm, could be done fairly well.  However, then we would have the added
headache of trying to decide on some standards for a software proj.
I'd follow them but I'd not be the person to start that ball rolling.
I was more hoping for a pencil-n-paper project myself.

-- 
Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers.
		-- Leonard Brandwein
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:34:44 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

Loren writes:
>I didn't mean "how does the play group decide which modules to plug into
>the system?" I meant "how do the designers decide how to divide the
>system into modular sections?" 

Hmm, the division of labor is a critical element, but I think we're 
yelling "Break!" at the beginning of the huddle.  We first need to 
decide on the foundations of the system: number of mechanics, the
specifics of said mechanics, multi-genre or no (that seems pretty
decided, it looks to me.)  etc.

>For instance, if the magic system is the same modular system as the 
>superpowers system that will force a different feel than if they were 
>totally separate, or if there were no superpower section at all.

Agreed wholeheartedly.  This would be step two: assuming that we have
decided on the foundations, what would be the required divisions to
best implement the game we have in mind?

I can see rather hot and furious wars (Ryk vs. the World) on specific
mechanics for magic and (Tim vs. the World) Hero-style unified mechanics
(though simplier by a few notches, please!).  We could also leave it as
abstract as it looks like we are leaving the rest of the game, so it's
all up to the referee, or we can design a slew of modules that can be
used.  Here, have a unified mechanic!  Oh?  Alright, just for you, we've
a specific memorized-spell system.  Ah, a 'molding the primal energy'
system, we have one.  Etc.

-- 
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Subject: Re: game system
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:06:17 GMT

mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) writes:

> When you sit down to `roll-up` a character for a given game, you generally
> have in mind the type of character you would like to play during this
> particular session.

Hmmm, I guess you haven't been reading the "random vs allocation" thread.
The point I keep bringing up is that your statement above only applies to one
group of gamers, _not_ all gamers.  Some of us do not have a type of
character in mind when we start a campaign; we like being surprised.

When I roll up a character, I don't care if he's a scientist, a musician, an
army logistics officer, or a farmer who kept failing to enter university; I'd
equally enjoy role-playing any of them.  I'll give any of them an interesting
personality, based on their attributes, education/career history, personal
history, and anything else randomly determined or chosen at a whim.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: griffinr@ucs.orst.edu (Robert Griffin)
Subject: I'm confused
Organization: University Computing Services - OSU
Distribution: rec.games.design
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:44:35 GMT

Now all must forgive me, but you all seem to be putting a lot of
effort into a game design system.

My question is:

	Is there a newsgroup that has online games that are GM moderated?
(not to be confused with your wonderful idea...)
			--Rob (griffinr@ucs.orst.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Random vs. Point Alloc CharGen
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 02:21:18 GMT

>>>>> On 12 Nov 92 16:12:46 GMT, bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
>>>>> said:

>The better approach is dictated by what the *player* wants.

	Andrew> But the GM dictates the base system.  If he/she
	Andrew> dictates point allocation, the randomness preferrer
	Andrew> can get out his/her dice.  If the GM dictates random
	Andrew> rolling, however, and you prefer point allocation,
	Andrew> you're out of luck.

Not true. One player could create his character with point allocation
while another rolled up his.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:34:02 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

Hi Tim,

I didn't mean "how does the play group decide which modules to plug into
the system?" I meant "how do the designers decide how to divide the
system into modular sections?" For instance, if the magic system is the
same modular system as the superpowers system that will force a
different feel than if they were totally separate, or if there were no
superpower section at all.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu
From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Graphical game engine
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:17:39 GMT
Reply-To: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: cwagner@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu

I'm currently looking around for a public domain/shareware/whatever design
program for graphical adventure games. I've heard of a few that allow the
creation of games using .pcx files and the like, such as Questmaker; I also
heard of one that makes games similiar to old Sierra-OnLine 3D adventure games.

Either kind would be fine; I'm really looking for something like the latter. If
anyone has used anything like these, can you tell me how well they work and 
what the user interface is like? I've used things like AGT and was not 
impressed with the method of coding. 

Please respond on the newgroup, not through E-mail.


-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: net.rpg: A sample Design to Pick Apart
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:21:34 GMT
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.

Alright, I'll offer my version of net.rpg.  Do what you want with it.
It's for experienced gamers only, but if you're not an experienced
gamer, what are you doing reading this group?

1. Character Creation:  Create your character any way you want.  Roll
   some dice if that makes you happy, or just assemble whatever stats,
   skills, advantages, flaws, etc., you think important.  Mention all
   you need to, but no more - no sense boring the GM.
 
2. Results of Actions:  There are three possible types of actions:
   (1) Trivially easy, you automatically succeed; (2) impossibly
   hard, you automatically fail; (3) those where you might succeed
   or you might fail.  Which category a skill falls into is decided
   by the GM.  Resolution of types (1) and (2) are obvious.  To
   resolve actions in the third category, either roll some dice
   (whatever dice you want - percentiles, 3d6, 4d12, flip two coins,
   etc.) or explain to the GM why your assemblage of stats and skills,
   advantages and flaws, etc., would allow you to succeed at this
   action.  The better you roll (or fast-talk), the better the result
   of your action.  You really should either always use the same dice
   goals (low is better, high is better, heads are better, etc.) or
   announce before you roll what you would consider a good roll on
   this next action.  Those who attempt to sway the GM can smugly
   ignore this extra wasted section, of course.

3. Your health: if you get wounded, take poison, etc., the GM will
   assess how much damage, relative to your capacity, you took.  Why
   quantify it?  Just say, "You're reeling from the pain and blood loss
   - looks like you'll last another minute if you're lucky - make a
   lucky roll,"  or maybe "It's just a scratch - you could take ten
   more like that without noticing."  Likewise, if your roll (or
   fast-talk) really well on a hit against a foe, then *he's* reeling
   or even down and out in one blow - well done!

4. Character growth: when you feel the character has accomplished enough
   to warrant improving in some stat or skill you've given him/her, make
   your case to the GM.  Likewise, the GM may decide for you and say
   something like, "Raise your Vegetable Gardening attribute one level -
   you sure learned a lot about it from the old nun."
 
5. Equipment: whatever you can convince the GM your character would have.

6. Detail:  those that like more detail will please supply it.  Those
   who think this is too much are free to ignore whatever parts of it
   you don't like.
 
What have I forgotten?

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Skill trees
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:37:29 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

> 
> I don't know this system, but I think a skill system would be the way
> to go.  How about a hierarchial(sp?) skill system where 'root skills'
> cost comparatively much, and 'leaf skills' are cheaper?  Of course you
> need the right root (to a certain amount) to get the leaf.
> 
> I.e. Krank the fighter has a lot of skill in general(?) martial arts,
> this makes it easy for him to specialize in, say, the longsword.
> Perhaps he cannot raise his longsword skill to more than twice the
> M.A. skill, or perhaps his high M.A. skill makes it cheaper to
> increase his longsword skill.
> 
[gobs of stuff not relevant to this particular reply deleted]
> --
>  = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
>  = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =

The original Paranoia system worked this way. When they did their 
second edition, they changed it, citing player complaints. 
Personally, I like the idea, but I don't think it's playable enough 
to use.

Spike (Not Jones)

Opinions expressed are mine, and mine alone. My employer
has nothing to do with them (as if GE played RPGs!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design