HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cadesjar@descartes.waterloo.edu (Curtis Desjardins)
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:42:42 GMT

In article <kAl+TH@engin.umich.edu> positron@caen.engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas) writes:
>> In the earlier part of this century we didn't have airbrushed Playboy models
>
>Just an aside here, but I wanted to point out that Playboy does not
>airbrush or otherwise alter their photographs.

Yah...right! They don't airbrush their photographs. They just scour the 
country to find models that don't have skin pores. (Gotta wonder how
they sweat without them!)

========================= Fluffy the Wonder Bunny ============================
       Sex is not the answer, sex is the question. Yes is the answer.
==============================================================================
      The other night I was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, and
              I wondered, "Where the FUCK is my ROOF ?!?"
================== cadesjardins@descartes.waterloo.edu =======================
 Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature and join the fun!
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,misc.legal
From: degroff@tricorder.IntelliCorp.COM (Les Degroff)
Subject: Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:02:15 GMT

|> thought and action... but it's not always a *long* distance.  Sheesh.  One 
|> of those fuzzy-boundary things. 
|> 
|> > The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?
|> 
|>    On a legal level, thoughts should be sacrosanct.  My opinion.
|> 

|>      --Jesse.
   But that is part of the issue, we are expecting, contemplating
major extensions of our ability to "communicate" and record thoughts, along
with this will come (IMHO) new understanding, new semantics about
"mental trauma" and "influence"  (such how "deep"/"permanent" a memory 
trace is, or "how mind changing")  When you get to the point (still a
big maybe technically) of being able to log and analzye "thoughts" and
(even bigger maybe) to predict actions from the log/analysis?  The
legal system already is sloppy about this stuff, expert psychologic
witnesses, insanity defence..., each incremental window into minds 
will be tested and fit into the mess we call a legal "system" 
(I was a victem of the legal chaos? (i meant system :))) 
   It's awesome to consider how much the Constitution can be used here,
but also the caution of how diluted the rights when communications and
permanent media are involved.  Pictures, phone tapes, and video are
"not self incrimination"... I bet a "mind scan block" wouldn't be
protected either!! Les DeGroff
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
From: jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: Intent (was Re: Photo of minor, etc./Virtual Ethics)
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 19:22:59 GMT

In <1992Apr6.163148.27349@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> wooledge@ces.cwru.edu (Gregory Wooledge) writes:
>minotaur@labyrnth.via.mind.org (The Minotaur) writes:
>>The bruiser:  Is intent alone enough to convict?

>Certainly.  "Attempted murder", for example, is a crime.  Someone should not
>be let go just because (s)he failed in an attempt to perform a crime.  (S)he
>will probably try again.

This is confusing the issue in a big way.  In an attempted murder, there is
more than just intent.  There is also some sort of action.  The situation
we have been pondering is whether a crime done in VR (virtual reality) (namely
child pornography) is illegal.  Even the question of intent is a little
misleading.  There are lots of things people think about which are illegal,
and which they may even like to try in a virtual setting, but which they would 
never do in RL (real life).

You make it sound as though a VR crime IS indeed illegal, from the reasoning 
that someone doing so would do it again, supposedly possibly in RL.  If this
were indeed the case, then it would also likely apply to movie-makers, 
authors, video game players, and a whole bunch of other people who have
portrayed or acted illegal acts in a virtual or fictional setting.  Next
you'll probably make thinking of such things a crime.  Bring on the thought
police.

My opinion is that no, it's not illegal to do something in VR which is 
illegal in RL.  This in the sense of VR situations with just one person.
In multi-user VR situations, there are some laws such as harrassment and
the such which should probably still apply.  But let's keep the law in
RL for the most part.  A crime should involve a victim of some sort, and
any sort of virtual play-acting of a crime has no victim.

If anything it might just keep some people from commiting RL crimes.

                            Jim Lick		       
Work: University of California	| Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
      Santa Barbara		|       Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
      Dept. of Mechanical Engr. |	(805) 968-0189 voice/msg
      2311 Engr II Building     | "when you gonna make up your mind?
      (805) 893-4113            |  when you gonna love you as much
      jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu	|  as i do?" -Tori Amos
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tjk5@po.CWRU.Edu (Timothy J. Kordas)
Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:40:07 GMT

In article <rwmira01.55.703342345@vlsi.louisville.edu> rwmira01@vlsi.louisville.edu (Rob Miracle (Non-priv)) writes:

>In article <tjk5.7@po.CWRU.Edu> tjk5@po.CWRU.Edu (Timothy J. Kordas) writes:
>>Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
>>Path: vlsi!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!b62144.STUDENT.CWRU.Edu!tjk5
>>From: tjk5@po.CWRU.Edu (Timothy J. Kordas)
>>Subject: Re: Term in Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive"
>>Message-ID: <tjk5.7@po.CWRU.Edu>
>>Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
>>Nntp-Posting-Host: b62144.student.cwru.edu
>>Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
>>References: <rwmira01.53.0@vlsi.louisville.edu>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:52:47 GMT
>>Lines:       15

>>In article <rwmira01.53.0@vlsi.louisville.edu> rwmira01@vlsi.louisville.edu (Rob Miracle (Non-priv)) writes:

>>>I am reading "Mona Lisa Overdrive" and having only read "Burning Chrome" I 

>>Seeing as "Mona Lisa Overdrive" is a sequel to "Neuromancer" and especially
>>"Count Zero" You have missed something, both are wonderful books, AND the

>I got several responses via e-mail that have echoed what was posted here.  I 
>guess my next question is: Should I stop reading "Mona Lisa Overdrive" now 
>and get the first two read first?  I am about 1/2 the way thru "MLD" and 
>have to return it to the library by 4/30.  If reading "MLD" is going to 
>spoil "Neuromancer" and "Count Zero" then I want to stop, I think.

>What do you think?

>Rob

I dunno...if you're already half-way through you may as well read the rest,
reading Neuromancer and Count Zero will just make the events in MLOd much
clearer (maybe)...They're all very good books....you mentioned that you had
Burning Chrome ? read that, it's sort of a good group of Gibson stories, 
lets you get acclimated to his world.....


But don't take MY word for it...

Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:2090 alt.sex:14563 misc.legal:9308
From: csachs@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Colin Sachs)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics (Virtual Reality)
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:23:28 GMT
Organization: Ohio University Linguistics Dept, via the CS Dept,. Athens

So... In the future, we won't even need "the masses" like us.  Just the
top 10% or so of the population.  We can all be their and each other's
virtual playthings, sex toys, whatever...


-- 
Colin Sachs - csachs@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (or) an116@freenet-in-a.cwru.edu

	"This inside of my head was exploding with fireworks.  Fortunately,
	my last thought turned out the lights when it left."  - Calvin
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:2140 alt.sex:15001 misc.legal:9408
From: kim3@husc10.harvard.edu (Jason Kim)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Race is an undefined term...
Date: 17 Apr 92 17:33:58 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr16.125557.16115@sci.kun.nl> p2d@sci.kun.nl (Jeroen Huinink) writes:
>In <1992Apr14.003936.5085@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> csachs@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Colin Sachs) writes:
>
>>As far as I know, no one has ever conducted a study of the human genes of  
>>different so-called races to compare them (the human genome (pardon the
>>spelling) project would lead to this though, as long as accurate records
>>were kept as to the origin of the samples). 
>
>As far as *I* know some people are now actually studying the human genes in
>order to determine where the differences in the genetic code lay between the 
>races. 
>They haven`t come up with much upto now. But what they *did* find out
>was that the differences in genetic structure within a race are much bigger
>than the differences between races. Some scientists even claim that if the
>genetic-research is "completted" there will be a new definition of race, by
>which race is not determined by skin color any longer.
>
You are falling prey to *vicious* rumors. I happen to know that the Human
Genome project (a) is *not* set up "in order to determine where the differences
...lay between the races" and (b) is *nowhere near* conclusive evidence about
the genetic basis of human characters like skin color. In fact, my roommate
recently interviewed Dr. Walter Gilbert (as in Maxim-Gilbert sequencing) and
he reports that the Genome Project hasn't even begun on humans. They are still
attempting to devise a cheap and fast DNA sequencing method. They are also
trying to decide upon an approach to the sequencing task--whether to go from
base #1 to base #3,000,000,000,000 or to start by selecting the "interesting"
parts first.

As far as skin color goes, we have no idea what genes control it, whether there
is more than one pair of genes, whether incomplete dominance works on it, etc.
That stuff you learned about Mendelian dominance of skin or eye color in
junior high is all wrong and based on pure speculation. This is according to
Richard Lewontin and Stephen Gould.

Jason Y. Kim
Xref: sparky alt.sex:14225 alt.cyberpunk:2056 misc.legal:9194
From: rstevew@deeptht.santa-cruz.ca.us (Richard Steven Walz)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 15:28:59 GMT
Organization: The Armory

Jason:

You are right in defending Darwin from "Social Darwinism", but then
you blow it and misstate his argument so as to justify the blight
mentioned above. Selection does not mean death, it just means relative
superiority in increasing a species population, whether by cooperation
or by competition, which is the hole in the "conservatives" (what the
hell have they conserved lately) use of "Social Darwinism". It can
just as easily be used to justify communism, because you could support
more people with a carefully controlled economy, even though it hasn't
been done yet successfully because of poor development of the
principles.                        -  Steve Walz
Xref: sparky alt.sex:14187 alt.cyberpunk:2053 alt.irc:1352
From: gordon@aero.org (Kenneth J. Gordon)
Subject: Re: The Lawnmower Man
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:38:18 GMT

In article <1992Mar24.180003.14875@eff.org> peterco@eff.org (Peter A. Cohen) writes:
>In article  Captain Caveman!!, lemon@unssun.nevada.edu writes:
>
>>Oh come on guys!  All over the net i've been hearing about how much this
>>movie sucked and how blatantly misrepresentative it may or may have not
>
>I agree!  It's a science fiction movie, with an emphasis on the word
>fiction!  Shit!  It's sad that people that know better take this stuff as
>seriously as they do.  The cyber-dorks and SF nuts that decry "The
>Lawnmower Man" as inaccurate have something in common with the gay
>activists who slam "Basic Instinct" and the fundamental Christians who
>slammed "The Last Tempation of Christ."  All of them are People Without A
>Clue.
>
>Stephen King wasn't trying to make a statement on technology or V.R. with
>"The Lawnmower Man."  He was trying to tell a goddamn story- an old story
>at that.  "The Lawnmower Man" is a modernized variation of the old
>Frakenstein tale.  C'mon, V.R. freaks- don't read into it any more than
>that.  You'll look as foolish as necrophiliacs that watch "Frakenstein"
>and say "That couldn't happen!"

I don't dislike _The Lawnmower Man_ because I "disagree" with any kind
of statement he was making, or because I think "That couldn't happen."

I dislike _The Lawnmower Man_ because I was looking forward to a good
virtual reality movie, and as a movie, it SUCKED.

That is speaking for myself.  As far as "Cyber-Dorks" who complained
that it wasn't realistic enough, I can only guess that they feel as I
do, that if a high-budget VR movie is going to be made at all, it
might as well show an interesting depiction of VR.

- Ken Gordon
  gordon@aerospace.aero.org
From: fj05+@andrew.cmu.edu (Faisal Nameer Jawdat)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Virtual food
Date: 12 Apr 92 05:03:04 GMT
	<1992Apr12.043539.13051@muddcs.claremont.edu>
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

my psych prof brought this up in the first class of the semester

the fact that you cannot die in your dreams is simply not true
just a rumor

		-fiz

ps.  of course, he could be wrong, but then, he's got a phd and until
you can find me a psych phd who disagrees, i'm inclined to believe him
From: hgb@catalina.edu (Hubert Bartels)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo
Subject: Archive of the Chatsubo articles
Keywords: archive
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:37:11 GMT
Organization: Optical Sciences Center


The screen behind Ratz's head beeps. Flashes and beeps again. Letters start
to form on the screen.

>>>>>Message header. From Hubert Bartels,  10-APR-92.........
The articles in the Chatsubo newsgroup are available for.....
anonymous FTP from <catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu>............

IP number is [128.196.206.60]................................

Files can be found in pub/chatsubo...........................

Articles with 'nekoko.XX' are Nekoko's story; articles with chatsubo.XX are
collected alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo articles. chatsubo.00 contains articles
predating the formation of the chatsubo news group. Some Articles have
not been archived, articles dealing with administration and questions.

As usual, please try to restrict FTP'ing to evening and weekend hours.
Thanks.			Hubert Bartels


--
Hubert Bartels          INTERNET: hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu
Optical Sciences Center (602)-621-2032
University of Arizona   "Uchi-ra wa Buaku-do no Annapuna to Yunipuma ya!" 
Tucson, AZ, USA 85721   "Senshatai Yaburetari!!" Annapuma & Unipuma, Dominion
From: tolman%asylum.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo
Subject: Some words to live by
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:43:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: hellgate.1992Apr13.214351.18492
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept


  Myrillion flowed forward in a slow drip, cautiously intruding on Calibers
space.  There seemed to be no traps of any kind, no protection.  Caliber
had left the place bare.  Myrillion sped up.
  A tinkling of bells could be heard.  Myrillion stopped, scared now.

A thin line of blue light appeared, and expanded.  Caliber stepped out
into visibility.  "Don't look before you leap" he said, chuckling.

Myrillion stepped back, "Dammit!"  He tried to flee, but could not move.

Caliber sighed, "Do you have any final words?"

Myrillion clenched his teeth, "You asshole!"

  "Very WELL!" Caliber cried out, and the space around him distorted, a 
twisting and turning of an orange red vortex.  The continuum broke,
enveloping Myrillion.  

  Myrillion could see some sort of signal analysis chart.  He saw his
words "you asshole" drawn out, then analyzed for pitch, for meter, for
harmonics.  A 3 dimensional chart sprang into view with the analysis,
and it stretched around to form a sphere.  The sphere grew and grew,
mountains visible from the inflection of "ass" and a deep trench in the
space between the words.  He sped towards this place, this planet. 
He suddenly realized he would be living in his last words forever.

  He awoke.  Water had come from somewhere, and was flowing down the 
side of this small hill.  The landscape was no longer bare, but bits
of life seemed to swarm about- small insects and bugs flitting about
tiny plants.  He could sense they had originated from between his
clenched teeth.  In his angry "You asshole" the breath had been forced
out, forming eddies and currents with their own life.  This life now
flurried about, searching and living.

  The days flowed by quickly, and he looked out into the sky at other
planets that hung at a distance.  Other's living in their last words
in an eternity.  The animals did not die out, but seemed to thrive and
evolve, growing larger and more complex.  He would play with some of these,
and sometimes they would do new tricks, and he would laugh.

  On some days he walked to the high cliffs which stood where he had 
finished the word "asshole", and watch the bird like creatures dive
and play in air currents.  Other days he would travel to the smooth sloping
parts of the world from the exclamation of "you".

  
  Many years later, he spoke with his friend Ammad.  Ammad had flown in
from across the region of lakes.  "Caliber is dead" he said.
  Myrillion had sensed this as well.
  "Are you going to escape?  Can you?" asked Ammad.
  "No" said Myrillion, looking out across his world, at a distant waterfall.
"I could, but I will not"
  "Ah" said Ammad, "let us plant some jojo beans."

  The anger of this creation had carried on, fighting for life.  Myrillion
himself was no longer angry, and no longer fought.
From: jenkins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Kent Jenkins)
Subject: Re: Charter Ping
Organization: The Ohio State University School of Hermetic Dance
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:39:51 GMT

(*
Sorry, Phillis.  I've been lacking in doing any charter ping... I know,
I've been a bad boy.  But that's the job of deckers; to confuse the
opposition.

To the rest of you, this is what life looks like from my end of the
picture.  Everything in there explains.  If you're waiting for another
J.J. Faust or another Nekkoko (sorry, gal, me and names...) or whatver,
read Guideling #4 below.  Please!  Thanks, chumbattas.  Don't get
tranked.
*)

Lancer Stealth Deck
["The Crude Dude."]

Startup

Initiating autocommands...
cmd> visual hardcopy
cmd> load offline_off
cmd> ex offline_off
offline_off executed
  loading programs... 180 Tb loaded
  compressing programs... 180 Tb compressed -> 50 Tb
cmd> voice thenomain
Voice recognition Thenomain activated
Done autocommands...

cmd> "begin thirty second precis chatsubo input file output visual"
[visual precis chatsubo.30]

...THIRTY SECOND PRECIS: CHATSUBO...

You know, you see the once-a-month fictional and everyone tells you to go chip
the stim.  Well, hell, I don't have the stim, so I put together this little
file.  It does, in NO way replace the "demi-official once-per-month" of
Phyllis', but it does do what I like: consise, outlined information.  Hers is
much more interesting.  Read mine once.  Read hers twice.  Thanks.  Thenomain.

Guidelines:
[No Rules.  Go figure.  I guess we just like being anarchistic.]

1. Cyberpunk only.  This is open to REAL WIDE interpretation, though mine
   goes like this: Gothic Modernistic Science Fiction.  Think "Edgar Alan
   Poe meets Issac Asimov in 1999."  Any world, even your own.

2. Fiction or discussion of fiction only.  This is mostly because there are so
   many bloody newsgroups for the non-fiction aspect, even though most of
   cyberpunk is conceptual fiction to begin with.

3. Don't use anyone's character without asking.  Sounds like a pretty
   untrustworthy thing to me, too, but if you see some of the things that go
   on here, you'd understand why.  Oh, sure, for maybe a bit-part, a word or
   two, or a brief reference.  With permission, go hog wild!

4. Respond to the writings!!  Wow, two exclamation marks.  Even if you think
   it sucks, it'd be better than to sit back and grumble about it.  Hell, if
   writers didn't want opinions, why would they write?!  (I got a particularly
   nasty letter, once, telling me I sucked.  Unfortunately the idiot didn't
   explain why I was pathetic.  This, in itself, is pathetic.  Say something
   when you respond.)

That's it, really.  If you find someone's storyline particularly interesting,
mail them and ask them about it.  Some people get a kick out of haveing several
viewpoints within the same storyline.  (Anyone who has read "Theive's World"
knows how this goes.)

...END 30 SECOND PRECIS...

cmd> "send buffer alt dot cyberpunk dot chatsubo"
[send buffer to newsgroup alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo]
Connecting to Net... done
Sending... Sent
Disonnecting... no intrusions detected
cmd>
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: voodoo in Gibson yet again
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:18:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


Hmmm... Well, you know that Wintermute, such a liar!  Which raises
an interesting question--can we trust what Wintermute says!?  
Could an AI be capable of lyng?  Wintermute always acts in its
own interests and has been perfectly willing to mislead and 
decwei  deceive people to get what it wants.  

I think you're probablyright about it, though I'll still hold out
hope that Gibson is more imaginative than to just havetwo or
more machines chatting to one another across space and time. 

Wouldn't the influence of the other, or at least its messages have
been arriving on earth before Wintermute escaped?  Maybe Wintermute
suffers from hubris in thinking that it is "the whole show." More grist
for the discussion mill, I guess.
Xref: sparky alt.sex:13797 alt.cyberpunk:2005 misc.legal:9034
From: rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,alt.cyberpunk,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Virtual Ethics
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:22:33 GMT
Organization: Miami University Academic Computer Service"

In article <1992Apr7.020359.14390@reed.edu>, mehawk@reed.edu (Michael Sandy) writes:

	[stuff deleted]

> For example:  The Holodeck could accurately simulate people from history,
> enabling them to physically interact.  Further, it had access to the
> medical and psychological information in the Enterprise database.  It
> demonstrated the ability to simulate accurately, (with a crucial detail
> left out of course), a human being on fragmentary personal information,
> namely the simulation Geordi worked with and fell in love with.

	[Stuff deleted]

> Would accessing medical information to create an accurate simulation
> be ethical?  Fun?  Sex education could be interesting if the kids
> could experiment as they wished.  What about all those awkward crushes
> which you wouldn't dare tell the object of about?

     I think part of the problem here would be the authority to access a
person's medical and psychological records. In todays time, people would
not allow anybody and everybody to see their records. But in the Star
Trek "universe" things are definately different then they are in the
world today, so people might not object to other people seeing their
records.

Later.......

------======={{{{{{{{((((((Ryan 'Gozar' Collins))))))))}}}}}}}}=======--------
"You can give her the usual		     rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
things: candy, flowers, promises 	      RC1DSANU@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu
you don't intend to keep."		      rcollins@apsvax.aps.muohio.edu
  -Cogsworth	 			      R.COLLINS1 on GEnie
(Beauty and the Beast)
	------======={{{{{{{{(((((())))))))}}}}}}}}=======--------
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk