From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Guilty of ... Thoughtcrime!
X-To: C.J. SILVERIO
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1992 02:22:00 GMT

C.J. Silverio writes...
CS> In article <1992Sep3.025255.4014@zooid.guild.org>, goid@zooid.guild.org writ
CS> |kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes...
CS> |JK>  I don't think the man has a right to know if the woman feels the best
CS> |JK>  action for her situation is to abort.
CS>  [...]


CS> If she doesn't bow to your every reproductive whim...(etc)

I never asked her to.  You seem to think that I insisted upon the right to
keep her pregnant.  I didn't.  But I was *very* happy that she *did* tell me
what was going on.  I respected her, and she respected me.


CS> [Aside to Bill Overpeck: would it be out of line to recommend
CS>  that this guy talk to a professional about these feelings?]

Who is Bill Overpeck?  By the way, I *did*.  Any man or woman who has been
through something as distressing as this, *ought* to "talk to a professional".


CS>   - Try *communication*.  Try *talking* to your partner.  Let
CS>     her know how you feel.  Do this EARLY.  Do this OFTEN.

C.J., I *did*.  And every time that I told her that I was angry with her
little remarks like "this cancer inside me," etc., she started to act
just like you did, ie., to treat me like I was trying to force her to stay
pregnant.

So, yes, I *did* try communication, but it was useless.  I had no way of
discussing my feelings in an open manner, because I was kept out of the
counselling process - a regular treatment of men in this situation.  Frankly,
while a lot of men just leave when they find out about a pregnancy, it is the
men who *do* stick around, who are punished more!  That sure is real gratitude,
isn't it?

Am I at least "allowed" to say that leaving the relationship was something
that I probably *should* have thought of, given the treatment I faced,
without being called a sexist pig?


CS>   - If she doesn't agree with you, sounds like you'd better break
CS>     off the relationship.

I loved her just a little *too* much to do that, C.J.  I didn't consider it
cause to leave her, and I certainly did *not* consider it cause for violence!
ONCE AGAIN, I re-iterate that I was speaking from the perspective of over a
year and a half ago.  How would *you* react in a very stressful situation?


CS>   - If you don't trust her, don't have a relationship with her.

I did trust her, so I *did* continue with her.


CS>   - Take responsibility for your own birth control, to avoid the
CS>     situation in future.

Yes, we *did*, but we have an accident.  It *does* happen, in a small
percentage of cases, *even* when both partners are responsible, as we were.


CS> Free clue:  You don't own somebody else's body.  You won't ever
CS> own somebody else's body, even if you are married to him/her.

Strange, I never said that I did, but you are the THIRD person so far, to
imply that I wanted to control her by attempting to force her to remain
pregnant, even though I did no such thing.


CS> You have the right to make your feelings known.

True, but I was *NEVER* given the right to make my feelings known within the
professional context which *she* DID have access to.  I took her to EVERY
counselling appointment except one, and in *every* case, the nurse or doctor
called *her* name, and looked with contempt upon me, if I even *dared* to
stand up and attempt to go into the counselling session with her.  Surely, this
is very important issue for couples, so *both* partners *ought* to be given
the right to speak their feelings.

And in a context where one partner blocks out the other's attempts at
communication, professional counselling is the only viable option, other
than breaking up the relationship (notice that I did not mention any form
of violence...)


CS> Absolutely not.  I've been in a long-term relationship that
CS> ended because of an affair.  Violent impulses toward my partner
CS> would NOT have been normal.  They were NOT my reaction.  I was
CS> certainly angry, but I expressed my anger through words, and
CS> not blows aimed at my partner.

Fine, that is *your* situation, but in *my* situation, SHE threatened ME with
physical violence if I even *dared* to speak to anyone about what happened,
and over a year later, when I could no longer hold my silence, she
subsequently threatened me with death twice again.

I *never* threatened her with violence.  I ONLY tried to imagine what I *might*
have done if I were ever so unlucky as to be in a situation where a woman whom
I trusted and loved, and whom I thought loved and trusted me, kept something
as important to me (as this subject is) for over a year ....  THIS HAS NEVER
HAPPENED.

I was *only* attempting to argue that notification *should* be made, so that
it does not lead to the risk of distress caused by a perception of betrayal
which could ensue if the facts were to be held back, only to be discovered
later.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * If it MOVES so slow, why is it called Rush hour?