From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:29:28 GMT

poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) says:



>Yes, the material I learned at this school had various medium and long
>range principles and techniques included, but unfortunately this aspect
>of training was largely ignored.

To bad.  I guess it varies from school to school.

>I think when a 10 year student is
>uncomfortable at long range, there is a problem.

Are you speaking of yourself at the time, or one of the students there?

Like I said, it probably is to bad that they didn't feel it 
important to cover all three ranges thoroughly.  Most of the
students here are pretty comfortable with long and medium range.
We go over theories and applications in all three ranges,
but the idea before was that in Wing Chun, it is not
considered proper to initiate a long range attack.


>I also tend to think
>that one should be able to operate at long range without necessarily
>using it only as an oportunity to close the gap.

Definitely true.  Again though, I was saying that it is considered
improper to initiate an attack at long range.  That doesn't mean
that there aren't theories and techniques in Wing Chun that 
deal with the long range.  Unfortunately as you have said,
they are not allways taught.  For example at the recent seminar,
we went over footwork strategy used in the longer range.  Like
one example was a sloution to dealing with an opponents circular
movement (such as a boxers) without actually being drawn into his
circular pattern (anotherwords not being forced to follow his
circle, forced to play by his rules and leads).  This was all
long range theory and application.  We also went over some theories against
long range attacks, and were able to show them against some of the
long range attacks by the Kenpo and Hung Gar people present.



>This is the pretty standard line on long range fighting in WC. However,
>I'm not sure it is entirely true, and I tend to find it rather limiting.
>There are circumstances when it might be to your advantage to stay at
>a longer range. 

Again, maybe I should have made myself more clear in the last post,
but it was meant to imply that it is considered improper to initiate
a long range attack in WC.  Long range circumstances are (or at least
should be) gone over.  I'm not exactly that thrilled myself
with infighting a guy with butterfly swords or even a longer range
weapon. :)


>I should have been more specific. I'm speaking primarily of throwing
>techniques. Trapping skills are well developed in this art, and I agree
>that point techniques and (to a lesser extent) joint-locks can be worked
>in pretty easily. 

Yah, I noticed that too.  My personal solutions are a bit different
than others at the school, and I've been in alot of private discussion
with the Sifu over various takedown ideas that would work within
the Wing Chun system.  See a main idea in Wing Chun is to keep
a good upright posture, and not give one side of the body more advantage
than the other, so all directions are equal (because as you know, if
you add to one side, you have to take away from the other).  For those
of you that don't know, if you ever look at a Wing Chun practionere
you'll notice that their pelvic area is pressed forward (like if
you were doing a John Travolta dance move and humping the air).  This
combined with the rest of the stance produces a straight line down
the back.  (As opposed to the outward/shoulders, inward/midsection,
outward/pelvic-butt curvature of a normal posture).  This is the desired
posture to be maintained in Wing Chun.  Most of the general throws
and takedowns are almost impossible to do and still keep the upright
posture.  And more than often it is not necessary to step outside
of the Wing Chun system.  What I have been contesting though is that
it is possible to do takedowns and some of the throws, and still stay
within the Wing Chun structure.  Various throws (more like pulls)
and takedowns are used in Wing Chun (with takedowns being more of
a leg sweep after a hand technique).  The throws are expressed
as a part of larp sao.  But that's where the buck stops.
If a major idea in Wing Chun is economy of motion, then I contest
in some cases the throwing/pushing/and takedowns allready in Wing
Chun can be used to a greater degree to express this.  For
example, they were going over a solution for a spinning backfist,
and all the possibilites that could happen once you stop it
(i.e. what the opponents followups could be).  The solution
being presented was more than adequate, and set you up out of range of
his counters (even thought you're right next to him) yet left
you in control to finish out with various strikes.  I then
presented a sloution that involved stopping the backfist
and a takedown that involved going with his flow of chi, all of which
stayed within the Wing Chun system, and used far less movements.
(For those of you who are wondering, it is common practice in
this Kwoon to question solutions, or to ask questions period.)
The Sifu and the senior students didn't seem to follow
what I was talking about so to be able to keep the flow
of the class going, I just dropped it and kept it as a mental
note.  Even Bruce demonstrated the ability to do takedowns
and still stay within the body structure of Wing Chun.
Take a look at Enter the Dragon for an example.  You'll see him
doing the upright structure but still flipping people and
taking them down.


>A related subject, to open this up to other folks...

>From my current perspective, it looks as if most throwing techniques are
>inherently circular in nature. Comments? Counter-examples? If so, and if
>your style tends to be rather linear in nature, what role do throwing
>techniques occupy in your system?

From my personal experience, I tend to find that throwing techniques can
be in all degrees of movement.  If you stop to think and try and take
it to a higher level of thought, throwing techniques can be thought
to follow and be dependant on the flow of chi in the confrontation.
The flow of Chi might be extended in a circular motion or 
might be more linear in nature.  Some styles and systems seek
to confront the flow, and apply a circular technique against the
flow when a linear might be called for and visa versa.  Other's
seek to confront with the flow, and then align their body's
with the flow midstream in the technique to perform it.
And still others seek to follow the flow of Chi from the beginning
and choose the technique with the correct nature to go with the
flow.

Personally, I've seen the third example to be the best, and Aikido to
demonstrate this quality to the greatest degree.  (Wing Chun deals
with the flow of Chi without flips for the most part).  Tai Chi
also, but I myself haven't seen that many flips from what I've
been exposed to. (Since we are talking about flips, and not overall
techniques).

This flow of Chi idea can also be used successfully with defenses
against joint locks and many other ideas.

>David Poore
>poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu


Marty

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