HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Distribution: world
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:37:51 CDT
Subject: Re: Learning App Frameworks (was Re: THINK Class Library learning..)

In article <1992Dec29.213057.14290@news.mentorg.com>,
bcohen@scherzo.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Bruce Cohen) writes:
> Damn! He hit one of my hot buttons!

You too!

> In fact, you can (or at least should be able to) understand a framework
> without knowing the details of the implementation, or even the syntax of
> the implementing language.  

You are correct. At least, in theory. Unfortunately....

> A framework is an organization of parts and
> a description of how they work together; 

Indeed. And, in the case of MacApp and the TCL, the developers of these
frameworks have only shipped half of the product. They have shipped the parts,
but when it comes to delivering the description -- what little they have
shipped is woefully inadequate. 

Take for example the TCL. The shipped a significant number of classes with
the TCL 1.1 for which there is next to no documentation. Sure, there's a
little read.me file that has a brief description of the classes. But no one
at Symantec has bothered to write a description equal to the other classes
that appear in the manual.

Part of the problem is the character of the implementation languages used 
for these frameworks -- it isn't entirely the fault of the developers.

Until documentation and languages appear that are conducive to producing
concise frameworks, we'll have to continue to struggle along with wading
through the source code.

> In many situations all
> you really *need* (as opoposed to what you might want to have) to write
> an overriding method in a subclass is the signature of the method and
> a set of assertions which describe the pre- and post-conditions for the
> method.  Sure it's easier if you have some code to look at and maybe
> reuse, but you could do without that.

Sounds like you are suggesting people build frameworks in Eiffel, which
has formal mechanisms for defining pre and post conditions for all routines.

Too bad there isn't such an Eiffel implementation for the Mac.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve
Hackett.


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From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Learning App Frameworks (was Re: THINK Class Library learning..)
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:13:35 GMT
<1992Dec3.064131.23364@reed.edu>
<Dec.3.13.57.31.1992.18090@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
<1992Dec4.081456.13906@reed.edu> <1992Dec29.213057.14290@news.mentorg.com>
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA
From: d88-sli@dront.nada.kth.se (Stefan Lindmark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: OOPC
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:21:31 GMT
	<1992Dec18.180725.10917@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Dec18.180725.10917@vax.oxford.ac.uk> vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:

   This sounded really interesting. I have asked for a demo too, but I am not
   sure they will send one to England. Could people who try it out be kind
   enough to report back their experience of it to the net?
   Thanks,

I got the impression that the info was to be sent on a disk. Maybe it would
be a good idea to make it available through anonymous ftp (with permission
from Electronic Mining).

	Stefan
--
Stefan Lindmark, Mambootor Datakonsult
Smedbyvagen 40, 184 32 Akersberga, Sweden. Phone: +46 (0)8 540 63864
-- Macintosh based software solutions --
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Distribution: world
From: soubyran@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Soubyran Richard)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 02:56:32 CDT
Subject: Performance tests...


Hello!

We are December 25th... and here I am on my computer... forgetting
about wife and kids... but I think it is important for me!!!

I have read in the THINK Pascal oop Manual (page 24) that oop is
not really suited for highly algorithmic applications... It is not
suited for computational programs... Is there anyone that could
post performance tests comparing oop pascal and procedural pascal
for a (moderated) highly computational program? What about C
compared to Pascal? What about oop C compared to oop Pascal?

I thank you all in advance for the answers and I wish you ALL a
Merry XMas and a great new Year with alll the best you want!

Richard Soubyran
soubyran@alize.ere.umontreal.ca


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From: soubyran@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Soubyran Richard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Performance tests...
Date: 25 Dec 92 18:02:42 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal


Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:172 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20603
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Distribution: world
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:54:53 CDT
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!

In article <1h7sdqINNr0p@calvin.NYU.EDU>, roy@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy
Smith) wrote:
> 
> state the "you may not [...] create derivative works based upon the Software
> in whole or in part".  If writing an application based on MacAPP isn't a
> derivitive work, I'd like to know what is.

It seems to me that the same would be true of using the MPW libraries.  As
Kent pointed out, Apple puts a general statement on its CD-ROMs, but there
are exceptions such as Snippets. 

I think that if you ship a MacApp program you need to get a separate
license, which I suspect is not included in the ETO subscription.  So
perhaps that would satisfy any legal concerns one my have.

Anyone who has concerns should contact the Apple Software Licensing
Department.

Larry Rosenstein
Taligent, Inc.

lsr@taligent.com


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From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
<lsr-221292105437@lsr.taligent.com> <1h7sdqINNr0p@calvin.NYU.EDU>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 02:00:33 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Distribution: world
From: cent@u.washington.edu (Bob Cent)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:20:46 CDT
Subject: ViewEdit question

I would like to copy one of several resources I have in a ViewEdit file
into a different ViewEdit file.  It sounds simple, but there seems to be
no provision to do this.  Does anyone know how to work around this?

Bob Cent  (cent@u.washington.edu)
University of Washington, SJ-50
Seattle, WA  98195


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From: Bob Cent <cent@u.washington.edu>
Subject: ViewEdit question
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From: bcohen@scherzo.mentorg.com (Speaker-to-Managers)
Subject: Re: Learning App Frameworks (was Re: THINK Class Library learning..)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:48:47 GMT
<Dec.3.13.57.31.1992.18090@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
<1992Dec4.081456.13906@reed.edu> <1992Dec29.213057.14290@news.mentorg.com>
<6606.2b41845f@hayes.com>
Organization: ElectroPolitical Engineering Enterprises
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:158 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20598
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Distribution: world
From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:33:44 CDT
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!

In article <keithley-181292171536@kip2-37.apple.com>, keithley@apple.com
(Craig Keithley) wrote:
> 
> Tools can have command line options and so forth. 
> Custom tools (cross compilers & assemblers), scripts, and projector are the
> reasons why I don't use Think C.  I build a software pack
> 

And I seem to have trailed off.  I guess I posted the wrong file.  Here's
what I was trying to say:  The result of the build process is a single file
(binary or S-record) that contains object code for 680xx and non-680xx
processors.  One file, two or three different processors.

Sorry about that fade-out.

In article <BzHqzF.D7w@acsu.buffalo.edu>, okeefe@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Paul
O'Keefe) wrote:
> 
> 
> So, I suspect that it's Apple's conservative legal policy and not the
copyleft
> that prevents Craig from using GCC.
> 

Its very important that you don't take my non-use of the GNU tools as an
indication that you shouldn't use said tools.  I've heard really good
things about the GNU suite of tools, and under different circumstances, I'd
probably use them myself.  

But I stand by my suggestion that you carefully read the GNU documents
(especially for GCC & Bison) before using or porting GNU tools.  This
suggestion  holds true for any software development tool.  These days, with
run-time licenses, copyrights, copylefts, and so forth, its very important
that the software developer understand her or his rights, responsibilities,
and liabilities.


Craig Keithley
Apple Computer, Inc.
keithley@apple.com
"I have absolutely no responsibility in this matter, what-so-ever"


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:53:40 GMT
<1992Dec11.155851.14862@walter.cray.com>
<1gb6n9INNpmk@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
<1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk> <lsr-181292122440@lsr.taligent.com>
<1992Dec19.000239.11451@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
<keithley-181292171536@kip2-37.apple.com>
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer


Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:183 comp.sys.mac.programmer:20610
From: d88-jwa@dront.nada.kth.se (Jon Wtte)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:55:28 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In <1992Dec22.124107.2807872867@ultramac.uucp> nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) writes:

>says contains sample code) comes with the statement "The Software and Manuals
>contain copyrighted material, trade secrets and other proprietary material
>and in order to protect them you may not decompile, reverse engineer, 

Not _ALL_ the material is under the copyright; it just says
that SOME of the material on the CD is copyrighted.

I would have no qualms about the sample code; especially since I
use the Pascal versions for inspiration and then code my own in
C.

>language attached.  And destroying the CD, as required to terminate the
>agreement under Paragraph 3 of its licence agreement, is a real pain.
>Trying to break a CD in half by hand is dangerous.  I finally had to use
>a heavy-duty paper punch.

Using a sharp metal object and putting a good scratch through the
inner part is quite sufficient.

Cheers,

							/ h+

-- 
 -- Jon W{tte, h+@nada.kth.se, Mac Hacker Deluxe --
  "You NEVER hide the menu bar. You might go about and change the color
  of it to the background color, but you never HIDE the menu bar."
                      -- Tog
From: vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Alun ap Rhisiart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: OOPC
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:45:30 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <D88-SLI.93Jan4092131@dront.nada.kth.se>, d88-sli@dront.nada.kth.se (Stefan Lindmark) writes:
> 	<1992Dec18.180725.10917@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
> Sender: usenet@kth.se (Usenet)
> Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
> Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
> Lines: 16
> In-Reply-To: vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk's message of 18 Dec 92 18:07:25 GMT
> Nntp-Posting-Host: dront.nada.kth.se
> 
> In article <1992Dec18.180725.10917@vax.oxford.ac.uk> vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
> 
>    This sounded really interesting. I have asked for a demo too, but I am not
>    sure they will send one to England. Could people who try it out be kind
>    enough to report back their experience of it to the net?
>    Thanks,
> 
> I got the impression that the info was to be sent on a disk. Maybe it would
> be a good idea to make it available through anonymous ftp (with permission
> from Electronic Mining).
> 
> 	Stefan
> --
> Stefan Lindmark, Mambootor Datakonsult
> Smedbyvagen 40, 184 32 Akersberga, Sweden. Phone: +46 (0)8 540 63864
> -- Macintosh based software solutions --
-- 

It is on a disk, and they did send it. There is a demo drawing program
and the files used to make the demo (but not the base files). I'm looking
at it. My first reaction is that the demo is a little slow (certainly for
what I expect of a C program), and not entirely stable.  I am well aware
that something always goes wrong when you give someone a demo, so I'll
spend some time on the files first.


Alun ap Rhisiart
From: sw@network-analysis-ltd.co.uk (Sak Wathanasin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Date: 6 Jan 93 14:45:03 GMT
Reply-To: sw@network-analysis-ltd.co.uk
Organization: Network Analysis Ltd
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <tal691.726304495@huxley> (comp.sys.mac.oop.misc), tal691@huxley.anu.edu.au (Tonio Loewald) writes:

> The most onerous part of the MacApp licence agreement is that Apple
> reserves the right to say "your MacApp program is not compatible,
> fix it with such and such a period or take it off the market" as
> part of the agreement. (This is my wording and interpretation, okay?)

"unless expressly authorized in writing by Apple, such authorization not to
be unreasonably withheld." (clause 1.B.3)

Also clause 1.A.2 says

    "Compatible" shall mean capable of executing on an Apple Macintosh computer
    under the Macintosh operating system.


What is so onerous about that? It doesn't even say "latest version of the
operating system". You can even run it under an emulator on a Unix system,
and still not be "incompatible".

And the licence fee is US$100 per year regardless of the number of applications
that you write with MacApp, not $100 per appl as someone said on c.s.m.p.

Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
178 Wainbody Ave South, Coventry CV3 6BX, UK

uucp:      ...!uknet!nan!sw  Phone: (+44) 203 419996
AppleLink: NAN.LTD           Internet: sw@network-analysis-ltd.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Distribution: world
From: vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:47:11 CDT
Subject: Re: OOPC

In article <Nigel.Williams-171292085801@geryon.admin.utas.edu
Nigel.Williams@admin.utas.edu.au (Nigel Williams) writes:
> This was posted to OODL.SIG recently; I await the demo disk with eager
> anticipation. Posted with emine's permission.
> 
> Nigel.

This sounded really interesting. I have asked for a demo too, but I am not
sure they will send one to England. Could people who try it out be kind
enough to report back their experience of it to the net?
Thanks,

Alun ap Rhisiart
Animal Behaviour Research Group
Oxford University


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From: vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: OOPC
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:07:25 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
From: kempkec@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Christopher Kempke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Performance tests...
Date: 26 Dec 92 12:03:07 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.
NNTP-Posting-Host: mist.cs.orst.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Distribution: world
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:44:26 CDT
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!

In article <1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk>, agauld@gssec.bt.co.uk
(Alan Gauld) wrote:
> 
> around)... Since Apple are thus hindering development of quality software he
> doesn't believe they should be able to use "his" (ie GNU) software. I'm not

We're both putting words into his mouth, but I think he objects to
supporting Apple hardware and he also encourages people not to purchase
Apple products, not to work for Apple, etc.  

> sure I agree with him but I do respect his views and ponder the morality of
> porting GNU stuff to Apple platforms when the authors would rather it wasn't
> done... Shouldn't the "porter" just go out and write his own?

Perhaps that's true.  But there's a conflict in that his approach is that
the software should be unencumbered so that anyone can do anything s/he
wants with it and that all changes should be equally unencumbered.  So by
that philosophy, it's perfectly reasonable for people to port it to the
Mac.

Even if there wasn't a boycott against Apple the GNU software (especially
GCC) wouldn't be ported to the Mac OS as a matter of course simply because
their focus is Unix-like machines and it's relatively hard to port some of
the software to the Mac.

Larry Rosenstein
Taligent, Inc.

lsr@taligent.com


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: Summary: I'm faint! I just saw the price for MPW!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
<1992Dec11.155851.14862@walter.cray.com>
<1gb6n9INNpmk@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
<1992Dec16.132756.20642@gssec.bt.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:29:39 GMT
From: GRAFF <pier@reze-1.rz.rwth-aachen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: TCL Q: enableCmd ??
Date: 12 Jan 1993 10:30:12 GMT
Organization: RWTH-Aachen
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: diana.rz.rwth-aachen.de
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d13
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7785C5B39014677@diana.rz.rwth-aachen.de>
X-XXDate: Tue, 12 Jan 93 16:30:35 GMT

Hi !

I've got a big problem using TCL: I create a new Menu Item via
ResEdit. Then, I add the menu Command after the Name of the Menu,
like this:   Show Highscores#4711   (Also in ResEdit :)
In my MyDoc - Class I call after the call of inherited::setupMenus()
the Bartender:   gBartender->enableCmd(4711);

BUT IT DOESN'T WORK. I tried this call ^^^^^ almoust everywhere, but
it didn't worked as well. 

Now, does anybody knows how to enable this (d*mm) menu item?? Where
does I have to put the call? And where can I disable it again?

	Thanks
	
			Jochen
			
P.S: English is not my native Language, Stig Hemmer ;)
P.P.S: Heard about the new Apple products? And the prices? Wow!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: lsr@taligent.com (Larry Rosenstein)
Subject: Re: OOPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Organization: Taligent, Inc.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:20:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.184530.11042@vax.oxford.ac.uk>,
vollrath@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Alun ap Rhisiart) wrote:
> 
> at it. My first reaction is that the demo is a little slow (certainly for
> what I expect of a C program), and not entirely stable.  I am well aware
> that something always goes wrong when you give someone a demo, so I'll
> spend some time on the files first.

That was my impression as well.  The program took longer to startup than I
expected.  Also, it crashed when I tried to stress it by saving to a full
volume or locked file.  

I also noticed that my PowerBook speaker clicks on startup, which I traced
to a call to _KillIO on the sound driver.  I don't know if this is in their
framework, but I don't see a reason for it.  (It's also a compatibility
risk because the sound driver isn't really supported.)

The startup time might not be a problem, but since the file saving code is
part of their framework, I would expect that problem to appear in every app
built with the same framework.  But the package does come with source code
so you can always fix the problem yourself.

Another point is that while OOPC works with a straight C compiler, it
really implements its own language.  There's a certain way you define
classes and methods, that you have to learn.  (It feels similar that what I
read in the Dylan manual, which should be closely related to the Lisp-based
object systems.)  Their "language" supports more dynamic features than C++,
which gives you a lot of power at the price of giving up some of the
compile-time checking.

The documentation file that comes with the demo includes reprints of 3
articles from Frameworks magazine (published by MADA), which include a
review of OOPC, and discussions of memory management and object systems in
general.


Larry Rosenstein
Taligent, Inc.

lsr@taligent.com
From: dent@DIALix.oz.au (Andrew Dent)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: OOPC
Date: 4 Jan 1993 21:18:08 +0800
Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.dialix.oz.au
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19 #1

My demo just arrived in AUSTRALIA!

These guys are VERY serious about getting their product out to the people.

The demo product looks like any other Mac mini drawing app.

The demo source looks clean and is certainly a lot simpler than a TCL
equivalent would be (how much of that is due to judicious choice of example
I don't know!).

There is a self-displaying document included with a full review of OOPC and
a number of further explanations of the product.

In addition, I have had two responses direct from emine, in the past month,
as a result of posting to them. The product sounds VERY interesting. The
choices in dispatching and class design seem to parallel a lot of the
decisions that Apple have made with Dylan (which I take as a big positive
that emine have got it right).

My big reservation is, they do NOT have a class browser for the source - just
an add-on object-browser for the Think Debugger. I have made this point
forcibly to emine but it would help to have some further comments forwarded to
them from the net.

I don't know about the general opinion, but I think it is ESSENTIAL to have
a class browser for source, particularly for:
- maintenance
- incremental development involving adding methods to several classes
- integrating and understanding other people's class libs.

OOPC could be the poor man's way of getting oo cross-platform (given the
suggested $10k price tags for Bedrock mentioned recently).

Andy Dent (A.D. Software - Mac & VAX programming)
94 Bermuda Dve, BALLAJURA  Western Australia  6066
Phone/Fax: 09 249 2719 (local)  +619 249 2719 (International)
       Internet: dent@DIALix.oz.au    Compuserve: 100033,3241