From: towfiq@FTP.COM (Mark Towfiq)
Subject: Re: Reply to  Bahaies  gang
Reply-To: towfiq@FTP.COM
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
	<1992Apr4.173818.10900@wuecl.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:15:07 GMT

  I will keep this short, since it doesn't really belong in SCI...

kh = Kamran Hakim
sm = Seyyed Mahdavian

sm> [discussion of the term "Seal of the Prophets"]

  Muhammad was the "Seal of the Prophets".  This means that He was the
last one to tell of the Day of Judgement in the future--the next One
to come from God would begin the Day of Judgement.  That is what the
Bab did.  As always, no one should accept this without investigating
it for themselves.

sm> I ask YOU, how can Baha-u-llah be the son of Mariam?

  Baha'u'llah is the Return of Isa ibn-i Mariam, that is, He is the
*spiritual* return of Jesus.  Or did you think that when Jesus
returns, His mother must return too?

kh> Baha'is do not even participate in politics.
sm> Like the famous Bahai: Hoveyda ?!!!

  Hoveyda was not a Baha'i--one of his parents was, but during
Hoveyda's lifetime he completely denied being a Baha'i.  In any case,
being a Baha'i is constituted not on birth, but belief and practice.

sm> Anyway, I think the politicians are making the best use (abuse) of
sm> this party. I have heard that there is a book which has disclosed
sm> documents about the transactions of Bab and the English empire.  I
sm> also have heard that Bahaies have nice relationship with zionists.
sm> For people who are confused about the origin of bahaism (England,
sm> Russia, Israel, ... which one?!), the answer is simple. Nowadays
sm> it is very customary to steal ideas, patents, etc. . At first
sm> England did the innovation. But then others found the idea very
sm> neat and useful. So they "borrowed" it (with the permission of
sm> England of course), and they began to invest on it.

  Anyone may investigate the origins of the Baha'i Faith for
themselves--there are many sources, both Baha'i and non-Baha'i, which
document its origins.  The origins of the Baha'i Faith are in the
Person of Baha'u'llah.  Many of Baha'u'llah's most vociferous enemies
at the time, who imprisoned and exiled him, acknowledged His
greatness.  If you believe in a human source of the Baha'i Faith, feel
free to try and document that.  Otherwise, I think I can speak for
other SCI'ers when I say it looks silly to make unfounded accusations.

sm> By the way, Jews are rich because they say Moses said "don't waste
sm> your money". Somebody said it is the last "command" of the famous
sm> "10 commands" of Moses.  (I am not sure whether they remember the
sm> first commands !). Now could you please explain why Bahaies are so
sm> rich ?

  If you have some sort of report documenting the economic level of
the worldwide Baha'i community please forward that to me, and we can
take the discussion from there.  Most of the Baha'is I have met are
not rich at all.

sm> I am not sure that I have the patience to continue a confusing
sm> discussion like this anymore. A discussion of this kind can have
sm> three purposes:

sm> 1) To learn something and be conducted to the truth.
sm> 2) To conduct the opposite side to the truth.
sm> 3) To show to others who is sincere and who is confusing and misleading.

sm> About part 1) I am already done.

  You are saying you have reached "the truth"?

sm> About part 2) I don't think you are going to change after a year
sm> of discussion.

  I think a good way to "conduct the opposite side to the truth" is to
offer statements backed up by verifiable facts--otherwise, how can the
other person reasonably accept what you are saying?

sm> About part 3) I hope that I haven't given too many people the
sm> wrong impression.

  I leave that to them to decide.

sm> If you really want to practice discussion about Bahaism, you
sm> better find a Glib-tongued (charb-zabaan) guy from "Anjoman
sm> Hojjatiyyeh" who has standard answers to your standard arguments,
sm> and you will be in business !!!

  N.B. the correct term for the Religion of Baha'u'llah is "the Baha'i
Faith".
--
Mark Towfiq, FTP Software, towfiq@FTP.COM, W:+1 617 224 6275, H:+1 617 488 2818

O SON OF MY HANDMAID!  Be not troubled in poverty nor confident in riches, for
poverty is followed by riches, and riches are followed by poverty.  Yet to be
poor in all save God is a wondrous gift, belittle not the value thereof, for in
the end it will make thee rich in God, and thus thou shalt know the meaning of
the utterance, "In truth ye are the poor," and the holy words, "God is the
all-possessing," shall even as the true morn break forth gloriously resplendent
upon the horizon of the lover's heart, and abide secure on the throne of
wealth.
		-- The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah