From: af664@yfn.ysu.edu (Frank DeCenso, Jr.)
Subject: Re: JESUS DIED AND IS RISEN (Re: Jesus Has Died)
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:22:15 GMT


Tim O'Neil writes (#28741)
"I've already read the gospels many times".
 
My reply...
Based on your understanding of the Gospels (Synoptics and John) I have to
question that. Let's look closer at your comments.
 
T.O....
MATTHEW 28:1-10 "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week
began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
 
Hey! Where's Salome? Did she get lost on the way? But Mark says
she was there. And what about Joanna? Luke says she was there
too. Who *was* there? Your sources seem strangely confused.
 
My reply...
One of the most basic principles in understanding the Gospels (Esp.
Resurrection accounts) is that the reporters, under the inspiration of
the Holy Spirit, commented on different aspects of the events. These
differences ultimately confirm the accounts themselves. If all the
Gospels gave EXACTLY the same story, in EXACTLY the same order, with
EXACTLY the same details, then we would have to become suspicious.
 
It's quite clear that all of the gospels relate their portraits of Jesus
differently. This should be expected. No four witnesses (or news
reporters), all of whom witness a series of events, will write them up in
exactly the same way, detail for detail. If they did, there would be
something fishy about it! The salient points are agreed upon by every
witness. It should be noted further that none of the details necessarily
contradict any others, but rather, together they supply a full story.
 
Wilbur Smith (in _The Supernaturalness of Christ_, pg.205) said,
"In...fundemental truths, there are absolutely no contradictions. The so-
called variations in the narratives are only the details which were most
vividly impressed on one mind or another of the witnesses of our Lord's
resurrection...."
 
Let's look at your points closer.
 
T.O. quotes...
"And behold, there was a great earthquake"
 
That's strange, Mark, Luke and John don't mention any earthquake.
I've never been in one myself, but apparently they are a little hard
to miss.
 
My reply...
Who said they missed it? Did they ALL have to report that event? Mark,
Luke, and John didn't say the earthquake didn't happen.
 
T.O....
"for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled
back the stone from the door, and sat on it."
 
Wait a minute, Luke and Mark don't mention angels descending and rolling
back the stone. They say it was already rolled back and they mention
young men in white robes (one in Mark, two in Luke) This is the most
significant event in human history and not the sort of thing the
witnesses would forget, isn't odd that the details differ so markedly.
 
My reply...
Did Luke and Mark have to report that event? Do you know they forgot it,
or is it possible that the Holy Spirit led them to record different
events, knowing that one day all the accounts would be available? The
details may be `different', but not contradictory.
 
T.O.
"His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men."
 
Guards? The other guys don't mention any guards. What's going on here?
This story sounds very suspicious.
 
My reply...
Did they all have to mention the guards? Wouldn't it be more suspicious
if all the details were exactly the same in every repect? Then we might
be able to conclude some kind of collusion.
 
T.O.
"But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I
know that you seek Jesus who  was crucified. "He is not here; for He is
risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. "And go
quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed
He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I
have told you."
 
Assuming that Luke's two young men and this spectacular angel of
matthew's are somehow the same why does Luke neglect to mention anything
about going to Galilee?
 
My reply...
What mekes you think the men and the angel are the same? Did Luke have to
report the Galilee excursion?
 
T.O....
"So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran
to bring His disciples word."
 
Hang on, Mark tells us that they were too scared to tell anyone. More
confusion. I'm beginning to wonder if any of this stuff happened at all.
 
My reply...
Read those accounts again VERY closely!
 
T.O....
MATTHEW 28:16-20 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to
the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they
worshiped Him; but some doubted."
 
The man has just risen from the dead and is standing in front of
their own eyes and SOME OF HIS OWN FOLLOWERS STILL DOUBT!!!
If that's the case can you really blame us for doubting when all the
evidence we have is some suspect and contradictory accounts written
first century peasants.
 
My reply...
Some will doubt Jesus no matter what He does. That doesn't negate the
fact that He is alive! They all saw Him...some were amazed to the point
of questioning the possibilty that He was REALLY alive and that it was
really Him in their midst. When Jesus walked on the water, some in the
boat thought He was a ghost! But on the Day of Pentecost, they were all
there, as well as many others. And thousands came to Christ on that day.
If there was so much contradictory evidence, why would all these people
believe? Why wouldn't the Jews produce evidence to contradict the
resurrection? Why didn't the Roman guards produce the body...after all,
they were an elite fighting force assigned to protect the tomb He was in.
If they failed in their missions as soldiers, they would have been
killed. Yet, we have no historical record of them ever producing the body
after Christianity grew and eventually was persecuted.
 
T.O....
MARK 16:1-20 "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the
mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and
anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they
came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves,
"Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?"
 
If they couldn't roll away the stone why were they going at all?
Again, this story sounds like bullshit already.
 
My reply...
Come on. The answer to your question is in the text. They even couldn't
give a reason why they went to the tomb, and you want me to? Could it be
God led them to do it, so that they would see the empty tomb?
 
T.O....
"But when they  looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away--
for it was very large."
 
Hey! Where's Matthew's angel? Did Mark forget about him? And what about
the earthquake? Didn't they notice it?
 
My reply...
Did they have to report it? Do you expect reporters on T.V. news to
report every single event down to the minutest detail? Do all reporters
report exactly the same details?
 
T.O....
I don't know about you Frank, but people in the first century believed
a lot of very strange things. When I read about such things, even in
reliable historians like Tacitus and Seutonius, I tend not to believe
them. So when you present me with some jumbled and confused stories
about people rising from the dead which seem to have developed amongst
some Galilean peasants who thought the world was about to end, I'm afraid
I can't get too excited about it.
 
My reply...
Maybe you should write a book so all the world will FINALLY know that the
Gospels are fairy tales! Present ALL the evidence you have to PROVE the
events did not occur, and I'm sure no one will argue with you, if you
have enough evidence. If you don't, oh, well...at least you can try.
 
T.O....
Incidently, John the Baptist's followers believed he'd risen from the
dead.
 
My reply...
That's news to me. Show me evidence. I'd like to study it for myself.
 
T.O....
If they were right, why don't you worship him as a God?
 
My reply...
I'm glad you qualified that statement with `if'.
 
T.O....
If they were wrong, doesn't this seem to indicate that the social and
religious climate of the time was right for people to delude themselves
about this sort of thing?
 
My reply...
Did they discover they were wrong, or is there still some religious
movement somewhere in the world that worships John the Baptist as a risen
man...without a head!
 
Keep studying!
-- 
Frank
....
"Forever, O LORD, your word is settled in heaven."  PSALM 119:89
"The entirety of Your word is truth."  PSALM 119:160
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