HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cid@athena.mit.edu (Derek H Cedillo)
Subject: Re: FLAME! Only a Manual!
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:59:44 GMT

Just a note:

The Saturn SC2 without turbo goes from 0-60 
in 8.3 seconds with a manual transmision.

The same car with Automatic goes 0-60 in
8.35 seconds.

Not bad, only .05s slower for an automatic on your
average car.  I would imagine with the money they
put into stock cars and the like, they could
at a minimum match the transmissions.

Just my $.02


Derek
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"He lived a life of going-to-do, 
   and died with nothing done"	       
		-J. Albery	     

In other words---JUST DO IT!
From: cho@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Il Hyung Cho)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: ---> FOR SALE:  Chevy S10 Blazer <---
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:43:23 GMT
Followup-To: rec.autos
Organization: LORAL - Western Development Labs

All right since I'm new to this group and I can't seem
to find the appropriate board for this I'll post here:

1987 Chevy S10 Blazer 4x4
5 speed Manual Transmission
Air Conditioning
Power Door Locks & Windows

Asking price $3500 or B/O.

If you are interested, please email me 
and I'll give you the full info.

I'm in the Southern part of the Bay Area.


Il Hyung Cho
Macintosh Systems Support
LORAL - Western Development Labs
Internet:  cho@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: hagger@cs.umd.edu (Paul Hagger)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: highly desirable cars not sold in the US (was INFFINITI vs BMW
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:15:19 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

>let's start a new thread:  let's name highly desirable cars that didn't
>make it to the us.. my contribution:
>
>honda beat
>honda crx vtec

[..some deleted so I don't have to match lines for my stupid newsreader..]

>vauxhall lotus carlton (377 bhp)
>vw golf vr6  (SOB!!)
>
>eliot

First, I second the vote for the Nissan Skyline GT-R!

How about:

Suzuki Cappucino
Ford Sierra Cosworth (real Q-car)
Every single modern TVR (especially the S3 and its derivatives)
Ginetta G33
All homologation specials such as the : VW Golf G60 Synchro
                                        Toyota Celica AWD w/ 280hp
                                        Subaru Legacy AWD w/ 250hp
Puegeot 209GTi
Puegeot 309GTi
Porsche Carrera RS (as an alternative to the RS America)
Rocket (for variety)

-hagger
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: kimata@convex.com (Hiroki Kimata)
Subject: Re: Toyota V8 (was:..real japanees car market numbers...)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:40:21 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <92311.110202KXN2@psuvm.psu.edu> Karl Nordstrom <KXN2@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>kimata@convex.com (Hiroki Kimata) says:

>>Crown had been the most luxurious car by Toyota until Lexas LS400, which is
>>called Celsio in Japan, came out.  The latest model of Crown has the same V8,
>>4L engine as LS400, I believe.

>Which was the first Toyota with a V8?  When and where did it come out?

I believe LS400 was the first. Of course,it came out in U.S. at first.
--
----------------------------------------
   Hiroki Kimata   kimata@convex.com
   CONVEX COMPUTER CORPORATION
   Richardson, Texas  U.S.A.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: essbaum@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Alexander Essbaum)
Subject: Re: Oil-Synthetic versus Regular?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:25:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1992Nov10.132526.1@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, schludermann@sscvx1.ssc.gov writes:
|> In article <27365@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, odell@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:

|> is needed. Usually this is submicronic and a bypass system. An oil analysis
|> costs $8-$20 depending on how much data you want.

where can i get oil analysis done?  i spun a bearing in an endurance race
a coupla months ago and would like to know if the oil failed/broke down/caused
it.  would a lab be able to tell me?

axel
From: randyd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Randall Elton Ding)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: 68 impala partial restored for sale
Date: 12 Nov 1992 19:24:19 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: wi
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: randyd@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Hi
  I have a 68 Impala 2 door that is partially restored.
  I need to sell it because I no longer have the time to finish it.
  Right now it is all stripped to bare metal, doors, fenders and windows are
  removed and stripped, engine compartment and radiator support is all
  painted and finished.  I have all new trim parts, rubber, crome, including
  new ralley wheels and hubcaps with BFG 70's.

  The engine is a rebuilt 350 with a turbo 350 trans.  Holley 1850 carb
  (which is a 600 CFM) on an Edelbrock performer intake.  Engine is
  all installed and drivable.  The air conditioning is completely rebuilt.
  Front suspension is completely rebuilt, including new shocks and springs
  both front and rear.

  Dash pad and interior are perfect, except need to repair front seat rip.

  This car is from California and has minimal rust.  There are some holes
  in the window channel in the back, however it is repairable.  Since the
  car is completely stripped and all rust has been sand blasted, you can
  see everything that is wrong with it.

  I think the car is worth a lot more, but I'm only asking for $2500 obo.
  If you thing you are interisted, please Email me or call me at
  (414) 762-3383, I live in South Milwaukee, Wi.

  Thanks,   Randy
From: jleung@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (A St. Xavier alum)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Top 20 Selling Vehicles of 1992
Date: 12 Nov 92 08:34:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxLH5L.7ps
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Nov12.024341.23802@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <3930142@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> roger@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com
>>...
>>If you break the list into "cars" and "trucks", the list looks like this:
>>(Note: minivans are often classified as trucks.  But that's another story.).
>>Still, the US has more top selling vehicles than Japan, and European
>>vehicles are nowhere to be found (why is that?).
>>...
>
>Because no one wants to pay $13,000 for a car that only costs $9,000.
>For some people, the prestige of the nameplate isn't worth the extra
>4 thousand.
>
>European productivity in auto manufacturing is much worse than 
>either American or Japanese productivity.  Of course, lately, Japanese
>labels are being sold at a premium, and I'm not referring to just
>the stupid "Dealer Markup".
>
>Case in point:  Mazda Protege, MSRP = $12,100 (no air conditioning and auto)
>                Ford Escort, MSRP = $11,700 (with air conditioning and auto)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------+------------

Lest you forget, the Ford Escort comes the the crap 1.9L engine
that has been around forever, with pushrods and 8 valves,
while the base protege comes w/ an all new 1.8L 16v sohc,
and make 102hp, instead of the escort's 88hp.

>Jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka.                Sister, can you      |   \|  |`
>Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.           spare a coin?        |    | -+-
>                                                                  |   /| / \
>Copyright 1992.  Disclaimer:  1 + 1 = 3                           |
>------------------------------------------------------------------+------------
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: Honda to move HQ to US
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:12:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.124943.3877@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> dan@Grok85.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.135718.8950@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>, c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>|> In article <1992Nov11.031133.5352@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU writes:
>|> >Hey, the Vehicle Identification Number on my Civic starts with a "1" which
>|> >means the US Govt. considers my car a domestic product as it was assembled
>|> >in Ohio.
>|> >I did buy American as far as I'm concerned.
>|> 
>|> Without commentary (I drive both a Saturn SL2 and a Honda Civic (college
>|> days)) here's a little piece to help people determine domestic content.
>|> 
>|> The US dept of <whatever> accepts as 100% domestic content anything that
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>What really amazes me is the way Honda is trying to convince Americans
>that their products are American.  Not 5 years ago the biggest selling
>point of Honda was that it was Japanese.  In fact there was major concern
>of Honda-ites that the quality of American built Hondas would be lower 
>than for Japanese built.  With the poor domestic economy over the past 
>couple of years, there has been a resurgance of buy American, and 
>Honda is taking steps to try to save their slipping sales.
>
>
>Again, Honda is and has never been the best car on the market 
>BUT it remains the best MARKETED car on the market.  

	Funny how great cars _are_ made in the USA, but by foriegn companies,
when will GM Ford and Chrysler learn that the US can make the best cars with a
little help from management.
-- 
"You Poor Take Courage, You Rich Take Care, This Earth Was Made A Common Treas-
ury For Everyone To Share." <-- Billy Bragg "The World Turned Upside Down"
*******RUSH**YES**PEARLJAM**PETERGABRIEL**PAULSIMON**METALLICA**REM**U2********
The University of Illinois Go Capitals Go Illini Go Tarheels (c-amin1@uiuc.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: dye@i88.isc.com (Ken R. Dye )
Subject: Re: Formula (was Re: BETTER? 92 Camaro...)
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:19:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.005809.16894@sol.UVic.CA> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>In article 5951@zds-oem.zds.com, easton@zds-oem.zds.com (Jeff Easton) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov7.005416.1675@sol.UVic.CA> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>>>In article 1dcj7lINNpop@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer) writes:
>>
>>>>HUH??? a FORMULA w/o an auto?? never laid eyes on one..i was thinkin
>>>>that they were never actaully made...WOW..i'd love to drive this once.
>>>
>>>That's right! She's a rare one in the States, but most of the ones 
>>>that were imported to Canada came with a 5-Speed. My '87 also has the
>>>five speed with a stiff hydraulic clutch. The newer ones are easier
>>>on the left leg, but I'm used to mine. The original owner of my car also
>>>equipped it with(among other cool junk) disc brakes all around, 16" 
>>>wheels, 245/50/VR 16 Gatorbacks, 5.0 Litre TPI V8(the manual tranny was
>>>not available with the 5.7), Full analog instruments, top of the line 
>>>Delco stereo, T-tops, cruise, PWR locks and windows(no PWR mirror or
>>>seat), performance suspension, etc,etc,etc(!)
>>
>>  According to the Pontiac catalogs, the only engine not available 
>>with the stick was the 5.7L TPI (i.e. any Formula 350)
> 
>That's right. GM couldn't find a 5-speed box that would handle the 5.7's 
>torque when pushed to the limit that would fit in the transmission 
>tunnel.

	I think the cheesy rear-end had problems with the jolts
associated with manual shifting under the extra torque, as well.
The 1LE cars got the aussie-built 7.75" unit.

>
>>  Also, the 4 wheel disc's were standard on any Firebird with a TPI
>>engine (5.0L or 5.7L).  It looks like in '89 they started putting
>>bigger discs on the rear, along with dual exhaust past the cat's.
>>It was good for another 10 hp.
>
>On my build sheet rear discs are an option.
>
>Hmmm. I have seen some TPI examples with (ugh) rear drums, but this is 
>Canada. What year is your Pontiac catalog for? I thought the dual cats
>were standard on the GTA and optional on TPI FORMULAS & T/A's

	The firebird literature in (88-90? memory fade) claimed that
the 4 wheel disks were a required option on the TPI 'birds.  It
also said that 5.0 TPI 5 speeds and 5.7 cars got the dual cats.
I seem to recollect a recall on TA's or GTA's that didn't get the
dual cats....they were re-fitted with the proper setup.

	Despite what the literature says, I've seen (usually late
in the model year) TPI firebirds with the rear drums.  But the scariest
thing I saw was a 5.7 IROC with rear drums and 15", non-speed rated
GT +4's!  A car that would go 145 MPH with tires that go to mush
at 120....hope that thing had a speed limiter...

	Just for laughs, what axle ratios do your cars have, and
what are the 'G' codes on your option sticker?

--Ken
-- 
Ken R. Dye				an optimist is a guy		 |
Interactive Systems Corp., Chicago	that has never had		 | 
(800) LAI-UNIX x341			much experience			 |
dye@i88.isc.comm						archy	 |
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford Tempo + SHO engine = ?
Date: 13 Nov 1992 02:41:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, virgo@metter.fmpmis.metter.com (Paul Virgo) says:

>
>Right after the LH/Lexus fiasco, I pulled up to a light,and right next to
>me came a teal '92 Tempo with the V6 driven by a very attractive young
>woman--who kept peering at the badge on my Acclaim. Anyway, I sat there
>and thought, "Hmmmm--now wouldn't it be cool,since the Tempo/Topaz are being
>redesigned in another year, if they went ahead and made a Tempo GT and stuffed
>the SHO engine in it--made this thing maybe a limited production vehicle--and
>sell it through select dealerships?"
>
>Then again, maybe I should cut back on the hot chocolate in the morning...
>Your opinions are welcome..bat this idea around a bit...

yeah..toss the high revver into the tempo...and the high revver into the
mustangs....maybe a little extra power.....???
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Subject: Re: Is GM going bankrupt ???
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 12:45:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.140337.13238@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> rjwade@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.191832.11722@bsu-ucs> 00bndaniels@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>>I am curious to know if a rumor the GM is going bankrupt is true 
>>or not?  I live in Indiana where GM is a very big employer.  I am 
>>curious to know because if GM is going to go under, it could have 
>>a devistating effect on the state's economy.
>
>today they are issuing more stock to get some cash so i doubt they going to
>go under...however there is much speculation that a division might get 
>canned....oldsmobile is the one rumored to be on the block!

Technically GM *is* bankrupt: its debts exceed its liquid assets.  The firm 
is issuing bonds to raise cash.  BUT massive bond issues on the back of a 
weak profitability trackrecord simply serve to depress the market value of 
those bonds to the "junk" category *unless* profitability bounces back.  At 
least two things are needed to turn GM around: (1) a take-off in the US 
domestic economy, and (2) long-overdue managerial initiatives within the 
firm itself.

GM announced yesterday that it plans to reach break-even by end-1993.  How
it hopes to do this is very vague at this stage, its public statements have 
been limited to the same old "building quality vehicles" and "growing our
market share" cliches. 

To pick up the saga: (1) browse the last 12 months of Fortune magazine, then
monitor; (2) Wall Street Journal; and (3) CNN's Business Morning -- the 
latter has featured GM very strongly over the past week or so.

You've every right to be seriously concerned!

Cheers,
Keith Coman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Condemning a research report on the basis of :  Dept of Management
 invalid and unreliable methodology is the    :  Rhodes University
 cheapest shot in the book."                  :  Grahamstown, 6140
                                              :  Rep of South Africa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Subject: Re: FLAME! Only a Manual!
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:47:02 GMT

In <1992Nov10.233727.11527@syacus.acus.oz.au> steven@syacus.acus.oz.au (Steven Malikoff) writes:

>A question for those who drive automatics: Have you *ever* seen a racing
>car (F1, Indy, Stock, Rally, etc.) that has an auto transmission?

Well, I actually drive a manual (most people in Australia do), but there
have been some reasonably successful automatics in racing cars - probably
the most noted would be the McLaren-Honda of this year - which has what
they call a semi-automatic, but which, if they leave the gearstick alone
will change up for them at the most appropriate time. Going a little
further back, we had the Chapparals of the 60s with slushboxes.

But, I agree to the basic thrust here - there is nothing intrinsically
difficult about driving a manual, it really does become second nature
and also gives you an extra measure of control. By and large however,
its efficiency advantage is being eroded by electronically controlled
transmissions and lockup converters. In addition, most racing drivers
for quite a long time have maintained that if you're driving in the city
then an automatic is the way to go.

Still, I passed my test on a manual, and it was more difficult when 
I was that inexperienced.

regards,
-- 
thos cohen                  ,not a typo        |Softway Pty Ltd
"It's not so bad to be a lair but a conniving  |ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 egomaniac is not really that socially accept- |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 able."  SMH, 2 Nov 92, P. Keating vs J. Hewson|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Annoying film on windshield
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:11:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: cos.bob1.721516313
Distribution: world
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems

In <64590096@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com> knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts) writes:


>> I recently replaced my wiper blades and was distressed to find that my
>> wiper performance did not improve much.  There seems to be some sort of
>> film on the windshield which is fouling the wipers, and I don't know how to
>> get it off.

>What about that icky film that builds up on the inside of the window?
>It gets so bad that I can write my name from insude the car. How does
>one remove this film?

>Tom

As a smoker, I assumed it was from my cigarettes, but when I cleaned
it off, the cloth was black, not brown. I have come to the conclusion
that it is exhaust fume residue on both sides of the glass. Windex
seems to work resonably well, white vinegar and water does also. For
really stubborn film, a powdered cleanser is the last resort.

BTW don't use paper towels, unless you get a cheap generic brand. They
seem to be putting something in them today to improve strength or
absorbency, or something. Whatever it is they leave streaks all over
the glass.

I guess it is whatever it is in exhaust fumes that leaves that initial
slick on the road at the beginning of a rainfall - note how slick the
road is until it has been raining for about an hour.

REB
From: K.Buck@ma30.bull.com (Ken Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: got me a '90 miata - (plastic windshield problems
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:32:21 GMT
Reply-To: K.Buck@ma30.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.
Originator: buck@granite.ma30.bull.com

In article <1992Nov12.175133.14714@kpc.com> atl@kpc.com (Drew Lynch) writes:
>Meguiars plastic cleaner and plastic polish work great if you can find them.
>They cleared up  my old Jensen-Healy's milky white rear window very nicely.

you should be able to find them in better auto parts stores, or they're
also available from various other sources, including RoadShow International
and even some Mazda dealers.  there are numerous ads in the Miata Club
magazine for places that sell Meguiars products.

>They are a bit pricey also, about $8.00 a bottle.

well, compared to the cost of a new window, that's not bad at all...
:-)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: silver@xrtll.uucp (Hi Ho Silver)
Subject: Re: What causes statics?
Organization: What you won't find on my desk.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 03:04:35 GMT

Sayeth david@cerberus.bhpese.oz.au (David Masters):
$As you open the door to get out, reach up and grab the top of the
$door frame BEFORE you put your foot down on the road, and hold
$the doorframe as you get out.

   Or buy a Mazda MX-3.  On each door is a small piece of conductive
rubber with the word "TOUCH" on it.  It drains static away slowly
enough for it not to be painful (but quickly enough that you can feel
it for a fraction of a second).

   I just saw this at the Hamilton Auto Show yesterday and thought it's
one of the neatest convenience items I've seen on a car in quite some
time.
-- 
|I know that sometimes my jaw clicks when I eat.  Void where prohibited.|
|Have you seen this boy?  Lust never sleeps.  I say hurl.  Honey, I'm   |
|home. _________________________________________________________________|
|_____/ silver@bokonon.UUCP    ...!{uunet|becker|xrtll}!bokonon!silver  |
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: jpoller@novell.com (Contents may have settled during Shipping)
Subject: Diamond star mailing list Address????????
Organization: The Electoral Collage
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:41:12 GMT


Looking for the Diamond star mailing list.  Please  e-mail the
address.

Thanks

Jack Poller
________________________________________________________________________________
Jack L. Poller                Novell, Inc., 2180 Fortune Dr., San Jose, CA 95131
jpoller@novell.com                                                (408) 473-8252
=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%=%
Lex Talionis, 'To The Pain'
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: AUTOMATICS CAN BE NICE! (Was Re: FLAME! Only a Manual!)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 03:39:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, lstowell@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) says:

>In article <1dku0uINNm95@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer) writes:
>>In a previous article, mshar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mike Mshar) says:
>>>>> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>
>   I really would like to see one of these children tell a certain
>   Jim Hall, face to face, that he is a [portion of female anatomy,
>   censored] because the Chaparral used an automatic.   
>   Or maybe Daddy Don with one of his B+M modified Chrysler 
>   Torque-Flites..?  
>
>   But then some are so uncertain of their masculinity that any
>   excuse to ATTEMPT to show same with "real he-man" blatherings
>   simply can't be passed up.
read the WHOLE thread, cuz you been missin what my entire point is.
and you certainly missed the article i posted regarding the "masculinity"
of driving a manual.  You have missed the whole point of my argument.
tis a sad thing!
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Newsgroups: rec.autos