HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Chetniks are Cowards!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 06:45:02 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

<U15231@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

> One among many lies chetniks, serbian fascists, are spreading is how
> they are "tough fighters", "the best gerilla in the world" and other
> nonsence. Certainly, they have proven record of child and women rape,
> thievery, and monstrous cruelty on unarmed civilians. But when faced
> with minimum equiped enemy they forget about grater serbia,
> pig-keeper's grand-gradnson - their king, and show the real face of
> chetniks, the face of lowest military misery.
> 
> 
> This is how chetniks react under pressure:
> 
> 
> FOREIGN PRESS BUREAU, December 10, 1992
> 
> SARAJEVO, B-H - Bosnian Army headquarters in Sarajevo reports that Serbs
> utilized  chemical  weapons  in  their  bombardment  of  the  quarter of
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Velesica.  Five such shells struck the area.  The same source says  that
> a  cloud  of poisonous gas has begun to spread towards the center of the
> city and residents are being warned to take  protective  measures.
> 
>      ...         Local  defense  forces  have  captured Mt. Zuc. Serbian
> forces have since been pounding  the  positions  of  the  local  defense
> forces.  Infantry battles have been reported in the Rajlovac and Vogosca
> areas as well as Grbavica and the Vrbanja bridge.  Serbian  forces  have
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> threatened  to  use Croatians and Muslims as human shields if the offen-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> sive on Grbavica is not stopped.    ...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> -------
> 
> The only thing that can stop this war is to LIFT THE ARMS EMBARGO
> imposed on Bosnia and Hercegovina and Croatia. Only military victory
> against Serbia will bring peace to the Balkans.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zlatko Sijercic
> 
> Long live united front of Bosnia and Hercegovina, Croatia, Kosovo,
> Macedonia, Sandzak and Vojvodina against fascist Serbia!!!
> 



  Za Dom !


Damir


--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: jovanovic-nick@cs.yale.edu (Nick Jovanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: INTERVENTION (was: Re: Let them play.)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 18:02:47 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: zoo-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <BzDIpG.EpM@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.183432.6988@gw.wmich.edu> x89olarte1@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>>Just an opinion....
>>  International forces shouldn't intercept the war. Their only task should
>>be protect and evacuate women and children. Away from that, none of their
>>business. A war is a war. If they decided that's the way they want to
>>confront the situation , let them.
>
>In the case of ex-Yugoslavia, I'd like to point out one thing: there has
>been and continues to be a very strong intervention in the region in the form
>of an arms embargo.  As long as there is a huge imbalance of military
>power, why should one side (in this case the Serbs) stop?  They have
>huge stockpiles of heavy weaponry, and none of their opponents do nor
>are they allowed to obtain any.
>

There has also been a huge intervention by the world community in giving
Slovenia and then Croatia and B-H the green light for secession, then
followed by reluctant recognition.  The world should have stood by its
principles and pressured all of the republics of ex-Yugoslavia to negotiate
the breakup of the country instead of encouraging secessionist treason and
acts of war against the federal army. 

-Nick
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams and _Croatian_ Catholic church
Date: 12 Dec 92 22:49:22 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <Bz2LHF.qB@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>
>> This is taken from "Katolicki Tjednik"  (Catholic Weekly),
>>Christmas 1941.  The complete text in Croatian could be found 
>>in "Magnum Crimen" by Victor Novak.  It consists of 26 verses
>>of praises to Pavelitch, for he is killing Jews and Serbs.
>>Following translation was given by Hubert Butler in his
>>"The Subperfect Should Have Held His Tongue." The author was
>>one of the highest officers of the Croatian Catholic church:
>
>
>>Ode to Pavelitch
>
>... stuff deleted

If you haven't deleted the author,

-Archbishop Sharitch of Bosnia-

>
>What does this have to do with Bosnia Herzegovina?
>Please post it on soc.c. yu and soc.c.croatia.

You would have had an answer.


>For the present situation in B-H, the above excerpts
>have nothing to do.

It has, very much.

>
>>Regards,
>
>>Milan N.  Stojanovic
>
>Senad H. Arnautovic


You are only a little bit dishonest, aren't you?

Milan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: jevremov@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (JEVREMOVIC VLADAN)
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams and _Croatian_ Catholic church
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:38:55 GMT

arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:


>> This is taken from "Katolicki Tjednik"  (Catholic Weekly),
>>Christmas 1941.  The complete text in Croatian could be found 
>>in "Magnum Crimen" by Victor Novak.  It consists of 26 verses
>>of praises to Pavelitch, for he is killing Jews and Serbs.
>>Following translation was given by Hubert Butler in his
>>"The Subperfect Should Have Held His Tongue." The author was
>>one of the highest officers of the Croatian Catholic church:


>>Ode to Pavelitch

>... stuff deleted

>What does this have to do with Bosnia Herzegovina?

 For all those forgetful people out there: Bosnia was a part of Independant
 State of Croatia during WWII. Therefore, the article Mr Stojanovic posted, 
 is related to the history of Bosnia Herzegovina.


>>Regards,

>>Milan N.  Stojanovic

>Senad H. Arnautovic

  Vladan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Vreme, the Chetnik paper
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:01:21 GMT

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>But, I suppose since Vreme at some page somewhere said something
>critical about Bosnia-Hercegovina it is by definition Chetnik.

Erland, again you are exaggerating.
>Boy, I got news for you: the world is full of Chetniks.

Let's be serious, what do you blame the B-H government. What mistakes
did you believe it make? To my opinion, at first it tried by constructive
proposal to defuse the breakup of Yugoslavia. Later, it tried to work out
any deal that will prevent the war between Croatia and Serbia from
spilling over to B-H. At the end, when faced between staying in a rump
Yugoslavia with a prospect of becoming a province Kosovo-style, and
going independent, it chose independence believing it is in the interest
of the the majority of the population that voted for the government
(all three ethnic groups). When the newly-reborn country was attacked
by the Serbians with some help of the local nationalistic Serbs (that
did not support the government anyway), poorely armed B-H government
(in power for only 16 months) asked international community for help,
looked how the world reacted: after months of closing the eyes about
killing fields, it sent some U.N. bureacrats attempting to bring
 the aggressor and the victim to the negotiating table in a hope
 its top official will get a Nobel price for peace. 
How come that the world media downgraded the official B-H government
to "one of the warring factions"?

So, maybe you are right, in the decision-making bodies and media there
may be a lot of Chetniks. Otherwise, the media would not use the adjective
"Muslim-led B-H government". Case in point, today it was reported
that a new "accord" in B-H is signed by a B-H representative Col. Stjepan
Siber, a Bosnian catholic.

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Senad H. Arnautovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: little lies... (was: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:36:09 GMT

pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

>Regards,
>Milan
>===============================================================================
>		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
>===============================================================================

About this Macedonia=Hellas, this reminds me of a Serbian who in
a chat with an Italian mentioned to the Italian that now when
Croatia is independent Italy should take back parts of Adriatic Croatian
coast that sometime ago were under Italian jurisdiction. The Serb was clearily
falsifying history by implying that they (the Serbians) have liberated
all parts of former Yugoslavia.
With this smear Serbian policy, I would not be suprised to see history
repeat itself by bringing the following banner into  reality:
=============================================================================
           S E R B I A  =  B E L G R A D E   P A S H A D O M
=============================================================================

For those of you who do not know about Balkan history, that is
historical Serbian state
B. pashadom = current Serbia - Vojvodina - Kosovo - current southern Serbia

Senad H. Arnautovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Labudova pjesma (Re: REPETITIO MATER STUDIORUM EST
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:01:45 EST
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <724630459@locust.cs.duke.edu> wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
>
>   
>   If my guess is correct, this means that the Moslems have
>   allowed themselves to be massacred by the Serbs three
>   times in recent history:  1914-1922, 1941-1945, 1992.

	Yes.
>
>   Did Serbs really massacre Moslems in the years 1941-45?
>   Note to Vic Wick, Cro, and Matanic:  This is a serious
>   question, in no way intended as sarcasm.
>

	Basically some Muslims joined Ustashes in killing
	Serbs.  Especially bad were Prijedor region, Bijeljina
	region, Herzegovina and Sandjak ( Rascia ). 
	This caused reaction by Chetnick movement.  Many Muslim villages 
	were burned, and there was a great massacre in Foca.
	Story goes that Muslims from Foca sent a roasted baby 
	to the local Serb leader.  His response was quick 
	and harsh.  Muslims claim that tens of thousands of Muslims
	were killed, Serbian fighters that took part complained that
	they caught "only"two thousand. Evil and terrible, revenge
	is not an excuse.   
	Muslims denied this baby story.  Some Muslims claimed 
	that Croats dressed as Muslims massacred Serbs to provoke
	the war between them. There is a document where local 
	Muslim leaders from Mostar complained to the German authorities 
	about this.  

>   If anyone can provided information and references, I
>   will be most grateful.

	The best book is Dedijer Vladimir " Genocide on Muslims
	during the WWII"  I am not quite sure whether the book 
	is translated.  It gives detailed descriptions of almost
	every torture used.  
	There is also a big document saying that unloyal Muslims would, 
	after the  war be removed from that area, for their collaboration 
	with Croats and Germans.  It is important to note that document
	does not endorse blind revenge, but establishment of the courts.

	There is one difficulty with all this.  It is impossible to 
	see what is the exact position of the Serbian Royalist 
	movement leadership in this, because of the communist
	forgeries after the war ended. There were attempts to establish
	false symmetry in everything after the war, so the history was 
	represented like some Croats and Muslims planned to kill all Serbs,
	some Serbs wanted to kill all Croats and Muslims, so everyone
	is even.  In the heads of Muslims Foca massacre got the proportions 
	of the Jasenovac camp. 
	
>-- Eduard

		

	Regards, 

	Milan

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE
Date: 12 Dec 92 22:57:58 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Dec10.083346.18343@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.012635.29283@bnr.ca> faruk@bnr.ca writes:
>>|> 
>>|> In ex-Yugoslavia there were six _nations_ and many national minorities.
>>|> IL allows self-determination for nations, not minorities.  Constitution
>>|> of SFR of Yugoslavia allowed for self-determination of nations, not 
>>|> republics or provinces. 
>>
>>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
	  ~~~~~~~~
>>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
>>provinces.

A friend of mine sent me the following:


THE CONSTITUTION OF THE SOCIALIST FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA

                   Introductory Part

                    BASIC PRINCIPLES

                            I

The nations of Yugoslavia, proceeding from the right of every nation to self-
							~~~~~~~~~~~~~
							      |
							Not Republics!
							Not minorities!
			
determination, including right to secession, on the basis of their will freely
expressed in the common struggle of all nations and nationalities in the Nation
al Liberation War and Socialist Revolution, and in confirmity with their histor
ic aspirations, aware that further consolidation of their brotherhood and unity
 is in the common interest, have, together with nationalities with which they l
ive, united in a federal republic of free and equal nations and nationalities..
(Page 13).

Part One

ArtiCle 3

The Socialist Republics are states based on the sovereignity of the people and
								~~~~~~~~~~
								    |
								Not nations!
							
the power of and self-management by the working class and all working people.
They are socialist, self-managing democratic communities of the working people
and citizens and of nations and nationalities having equal rights. (page 28).

The Costitution of the SFRY, Cross-Cultural Communications, Merrick, NY 1976

*****************************************************************************

So until you find something better, I'll assume that you have 
just been mislead by propaganda?
And no mention of "referendum."  Oh, yes, Serbs are not people. I understand
that.  Nothing changed from Ali-pasha's time.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Bosnian mistakes
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 00:46:05 GMT

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Senad Arnautovic (arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca) writes:
>>Let's be serious, what do you blame the B-H government. What mistakes
>>did you believe it make?

>Went on the road to independence when they knew it would lead
>to bloodshed. At best this can be described as folliness.

From today's perspective you may be right. However, an international
recognition and membership into the U.N. was supposed to defuse
the tension since the U.N. and the international community
was supposed to help its newly-admitted member against Serbian
aggression, especially when its government clearily asked for
the assistance. How did the West swallow a Sebian propaganda
that this is a civil war and therefore UN charter does not apply?

How come the B-H government is treated as one of the three
"warring fractions" when it represents proportionally
all three ethnic groups. The Bosnian Serbs and Croats are represented
in the B-H government by their moderate politicians, not extreme
ultra-nationalists who seek to join parts of B-H to their respective
proper neighbours.

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Senad H. Arnautovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Let them play.
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:39:56 GMT

x89olarte1@gw.wmich.edu writes:

>Just an opinion....

>  International forces shouldn't intercept the war. Their only task should
>be protect and evacuate women and children. Away from that, none of their
>business. A war is a war. If they decided that's the way they want to
>confront the situation , let them.

For the war you have to have two sides. If both sides were equally
well armed, a solution would be easily found politically. The thing
is the Serbs are over-armed while internationally recognised
B-H government is not. Furthermore, an arms-embargo prevents
B-H government to arm itself to protect its citizens against
Serbian aggression. So lift the arm-embargo and have a fair game
if not the world does not think the U.N. laws should protect
its member country from aggression.

>(What would the americans think if they would have tried to stop their indepen-
>dence war and leave nothing solved...)

During the Independence War (that is more accurate comparison),
French troops under the leadership of Marquise Lafayette helped
the Americans fight the British. Other nations (say Poles, remember
gen. Pulaski) helped too. There were no U.N. at that time
but human consciousness and the sense what is right and wrong had
not changed since then.

>I don't support war, but sometimes i think there ain't no better way.

Sometimes when both sides are equally well-armed a "warm" war
does not occur; the conflict stays as a "cold" war end eventually
gets resolved politically. See my point?
 
>Enrique
Senad H. Arnautovic
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: little lies... (was: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE)
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:09:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec14.110952.18472
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <Bz8Mvr.2vA@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.111639.18451@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>In article <Bz46Eo.AA9@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>>Milan, you have a terrible habit of submitting useless information.
>>>What is "the official cencus"?  It is difficult to take your information
>>>on faith.
>>
>>1991, 1998, 1971 census data.
>
>Thanks for nothing!  How about a reference/source?

You are waisting our time, Joeseph.  There was something called 
"Savezni Zavod za Statistiku."  It was publishing yearly book on SFRJ
and results of every census.  You should go to library and 
check whether your university ordered such books.

The same source was used by Croats as an official one, so I am not
quite sure why are you complaining.  

>/Joe Blazic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.greek
From: faruk@bcars6f5.BNR.CA (Faruk od Bosne)
Subject: Re: little lies...
Reply-To: faruk@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 01:02:34 GMT


In article <1992Dec20.220255.3292@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland
Sommarskog) writes:
|> Faruk od Bosne (faruk@bnr.ca) writes:
|> >(not others, although serbs would like to see the fight between Croats and
|> >Muslims in Bosnia - fat chance),
|> 
|> Not only the chance is fat, the sad thing is that it has already
|> happened. Even worse is that we have had Croats fighting Croats.
|> 
|> >Albanians from Kosovo are fighting only serbs (not Croats or Muslims ...)
|> 
|> If things get messy in Macedonia, who do you think the Albanians
|> will fight?
|> 
|> >Therefore the conclusions of those facts are that serbs are fighting
|> >non-serb peoples of ex-Yu, and no other ex-Yu peoples have been thrown 
|> >against each other.
|> 
|> A lie, a myth, a piece of propaganda, make your pick. Truth it ain't.

No sir. What you refer to were single incidents, while the fight against
serbs is permanently going on. There is a plenty of evidence that those
wars are liberation wars against serbian oppression. Therefore, the Mace-
donian Albanians will fight for a simple freedom, when it comes.

|> -- 
|> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

Faruk.
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Yu Constitution
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:55:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec15.155535.18531
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Dec15.023821.24962@bmerh85.bnr.ca> faruk@bnr.ca writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec12.175759.18441@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>|> In article <1992Dec10.083346.18343@husc3.harvard.edu>
>stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>|> >In article <1992Dec9.012635.29283@bnr.ca> faruk@bnr.ca writes:


Faruk should re-read the following chapter he wrote:


>|> >>This is not true. The Constitution of ex-Yugoslavia allowed separation
>|> 	  ~~~~~~~~
>|> >>of provinces. By the referendum. Precisely as it was done in the separated
>|> >>provinces.
>|> 


This is of course not true.  I have quoted the relevant chapter of the
Constitution, but nothing happened.  He started with:

O>
>This might be found in Yugoslavia Constitutional Chronology 1986 - 1991
>published in: Constitutions of the countries of the world, Editors:
>Albert Blaustein & Gisbert Flanz (Yugoslavia supplement), May 1991 Oceana
>Publishing Inc., Dobbs Ferry, New York.
>
>On Dec. 23, [1990] Slovenia held a referendum on its right to secession 
>                                   ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>which was overwhelmingly approved. 94.6% of the voters supported the 
>principle that the Republic of Slovenia should declare itself "an independent 
>and sovereign state" ...              
>
>1991 Jan 14 .... this did not discourage the Macedonian Assembly to proclaim
>the sovereignty of Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian peoples's right
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to self-determination. It did not call for an and of the Yu federation but
>it reserved the right of secession.
>
>A new Constitution of Croatia was promulgated by the Croatian Assembly on
>Dec 21. It affirmed its sovereignty and its right to secede from Yugoslavia.
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Faruk.

So where is the quote of the Constitution of ex- SFR Yugoslavia?  
Dear Faruk of ex-Bosnia, you should read again carefully 
what you wrote and you might see that there is no connection 
between what you have just posted and what you have claimed
earlier. 

So, you have tried to mislead the audience, if there is any, which I 
doubt.  Whether on purpose or not, I do not know. 


Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R)
Subject: Re: little lies... (was: Re: CANADIAN UN GEN. McKENZIE)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:51:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.110952.18472@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>You are waisting our time, Joeseph.  There was something called 
>"Savezni Zavod za Statistiku."  It was publishing yearly book on SFRJ
>and results of every census.  You should go to library and 
>check whether your university ordered such books.
>
>The same source was used by Croats as an official one, so I am not
>quite sure why are you complaining.  

Stunning logic Milan.  How could I have been 'complaining' about a
source which you just _now_ revealed to me?

And BTW, I was _questioning_.

/Joe Blazic