HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:38:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.203727.26072@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>How can we be expected to follow guidelines in letter and spirit when the
>net.gods are violating it ?

Because the net.gods have enough common sense to know when ther spirit is
more important than the letter.
-- 
-- Peter da Silva. Taronga Park BBS.  +1 713 568 0480 2400/n/8/1.
-- `-_-'                                         1032 PEP/2400/n/8/1.
--  'U`    "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: Dividing talk.politics.misc
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Apr1.111918.16310@nntp.hut.fi>
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 21:19:30 GMT

 Jyrki> == Jyrki Kuoppala <jkp@cs.HUT.FI> 

 Jyrki> I'm not sure I agree at all on the usefulness of the usa
 Jyrki> hierarchy - I do think it might perhaps be useful for things
 Jyrki> like geographical politics or culture (usa.newyork.culture,
 Jyrki> usa.newyork.food, usa.mit.clubs) but for things for which there
 Jyrki> is significant global interest (and I think talk.politics.usa
 Jyrki> belongs here) there's no need to separate the discussion into
 Jyrki> usa-only and global parts.

There are mit.* and ny.* hierarchies already.  We even get the mit.*
groups here (as well as ba.* and uk.* ;-).

There is often sufficient "out of region" interest in regional groups to
extend their feeds well beyond the geographic boundaries of the region.
This does not mean that there should be a rec.food.new-england; we have
ne.food, and that suffices, and anyone who is interested can get the
hierarchy.

Regional issues *should be* in regional groups; the Big Seven should be
kept for subjects which are cross-regional by nature (comp.sys.*, for
example).  Just because the group is tagged 'usa.*' doesn't mean it will
never go outside the US; I know there are going to be plenty of non-US
posters and readers, and I welcome it.

The hierarchy is a tool to allow sites to filter out the groups if they
aren't interested at all; certainly there are many Japanese interested
in baseball, though fewer of them probably care about American college
baseball.  Therefore we would have rec.sport.baseball, but
usa.sport.baseball.college.

Or, in Kibo's HappyNet, bozo.sport.baseball.college (since many players
are bozos) and megabozo.sport.baseball.overpaid.players.like.roger.clemens.
who.are.late.to.spring.training (since some pro players are megabozos).
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:42:11 GMT
Organization: Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT

In article <44247@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
(Tommy Hwang) writes:
>     Voting against it??  This topic over a simple name has basically 
>dominated this group already!!!

I've got news for you: naming debates are one of the major flame
sources on news.groups.  People who ignore this simply invite trouble,
and often see a surprising collection of uninvolved people voting
against their groups.

Rule #263 of USENET: whatever you may think of a topic, be sure that
someone on the net considers it a life-or-death issue.

-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald                                           wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu
   "Blessed are the peacocks, for they shall be called sonship of God"
             -- Matt 5:9, from a faulty QuickVerse 2.0
============================================================================
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst, MA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 14:10:03 GMT

In article <frnk.702773186@cs1.bradley.edu> frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:

>   I have recieved more 'yes' mail than I have seen 'no' posts. Also, rec
>groups (as I have said before) are formally recognised. alt groups are not
>received by everyone, and don't have the status. (I want this to be a REAL
>group, not a joke.)

Even if it passes, Frnk, it will be a joke.

>And again, I wil ask for the deletion of alt.music.enya
>if rec.music.enya fails the vote.

If you want to be taken seriously, petulance like this is going to get
you nowhere.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Someone here suggested blue square badges for
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  straights.  Maybe we should try mauve
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /  heptagons?" - Damian Cugley, on soc.bi
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston)
Subject: Re: why do we have no votes?
Reply-To: gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston)
Organization: SCI Technology, Inc., Huntsville, Al.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 22:13:44 GMT

In article <Apr.13.02.34.18.1992.23615@dumas.rutgers.edu> hedrick@dumas.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:
>I notice that soc.religion.mormon has failed.  I'm worried that this
>failure is an abuse of the voting process.  

You are free to form your own network, with your own guidelines (or 
whatever you want to call them) for forming hierarchies. There are
reasons for "no" votes; that's been discussed here in the past, and 
they do include preventing groups that a significant number of people
don't want to see formed. 

A vote was held; in accordance with the guidelines, it failed; that's it.
Wait a few months, write a better charter, drum up more support, and try
again. You obviously didn't have enough support this time.

If you're too impatient, form alt.religion.mormon (and don't cry about
the propagation--part of the reason the seven major hierarchies get good
distribution is that they operate under the guidelines).

-- 
Gary Heston    SCI Systems, Inc.  gary@sci34hub.sci.com   site admin
The Chariman of the Board and the CFO speak for SCI. I'm neither.
"Always remember, that someone, somewhere, is making a product that will
make your product obselete." Georges Doriot, founder of American R & D.
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT:  soc.religion.mormon fails 135: 169
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:39:58 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <z#@byu.edu> gritton@byu.edu writes:
>
>Go ahead and propose it, but don't count on it doing any better. There's
>a fatal flaw here: in the temple/censorship issue, the two sides feel
>strongly enough to kill a proposal they don't want. It will just change who
>votes no.

I noticed many no votes from BYU, so I expect that there was more
to the "no" votes than those who thought the moderation was censorship.
Certainly some of the things the church has said recently could be
interpreted to mean that they were opposed to such forums in general.

I propose that those who are interested in discussing Mormonism
join one of the mailing lists and forget about making a usenet
group.  These are very lively, but without the usenet flaming.
I really can't see what need isn't being served by these lists.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Subject: Re: How to start a new newsgroup ?
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<9204161737.AA25569@cec1.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:43:39 GMT

In article <9204161737.AA25569@cec1.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:

	     How to start a new newsgroup ?
	  ----------------------------------
    Friends,
	We are thinking about starting a new newsgroup 
		 soc.culture.tamil
    which is intended for Tamils ( people speaking Tamil,an ancient Indian(Asia)
    language ) around the world (U.S.A., Canada, Malaysia, Singapore and U.K...)
    We would like to have a worldwide distribution for this newsgroup. However,
    we do not know the usual procedure for starting a newsgroup.
	We would appreciate your help in enlightening us how to start a new
    newsgroup. 
	Thanks,
								     S.Pandian,
							       sp2@cec1.wustl.edu

Read `How to Create a New Newsgroup', posted semi-regularly in this
group, news.admin, news.answers, and a few others.  If it's expired at
your site, you can get it via anonymous ftp from pit-manager.mit.edu.

ftp pit-manager.mit.edu
Name: anonymous
Password: yourlogin@your.host.domain
ftp> cd pub/usenet
ftp> ls news.*/*[Cc]reate*
[...]
news.admin/How_to_Create_a_New_Newsgroup
[...]
ftp> cd news.admin
ftp> get How_to_Create_a_New_Newsgroup
ftp> quit

If you don't have ftp, send the following email message to
mail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu.  Send "help" for mail-server info.

send usenet/news.admin/How_to_Create_a_New_Newsgroup


--
J Lee Jaap <jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov> {+1 804/864, or FTS 928}-2148
employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23665-5225
From: cudcv@warwick.ac.uk (Rob McMahon)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: r.a.manga vs r.a.c.manga - A Plea for Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:13:27 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK

In article <axolotl.703387227@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>Why is rec.arts.manga inconsistent?  rec.arts.manga is consistent with at
>least seven democratically determined naming precedents.
>
>If some net."god" doesn't think that democratically determined precedents
>should be respected, that opinion should be included in the newsgroup
>creation guidelines.

Just because bad names have slipped through in the past (sometimes because the
appropriate part of the hierarchy didn't exist at the time), doesn't mean that
we should sit back and let new ones be created.  Just because `sci.aquaria'
exists in many places doesn't mean I'll say okay to `sci.course-fishing'.
`rec.arts.drwho' and `rec.arts.startrek' really need moving, but inertia being
what it is they'll probably stay where they are for years.  That's why it's so
important to get the name right at the start.  With the existence of so many
groups these days, the indexing scheme is becoming more and more important for
people to find their way round.

Rob
-- 
UUCP:   ...!mcsun!uknet!warwick!cudcv	PHONE:  +44 203 523037
JANET:  cudcv@uk.ac.warwick             INET:   cudcv@warwick.ac.uk
Rob McMahon, Computing Services, Warwick University, Coventry CV4 7AL, England
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Subject: Re: RESULT:  soc.religion.mormon fails 135: 169
Lines: 11
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 12:54:20 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
	<1992Apr13.175451.4542@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> <s#@byu.edu>
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu

I said:

>   I may end up holding off anyway. I notice that the results were posted
>to soc.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc, but not news.announce.newgroups,
>news.groups. It may be that David Lawrence doesn't like that judgement
>and thus has held off posting. Hmm... I'd better talk to him about it.

   No, the results just came to news.announce.newgroups untouched.
I should be more patient. In that case, I stand by my decision.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
From: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:06:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44653
Reply-To: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Organization: Purdue Animation Club, Purdue University

In article <-+sjr1@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>
>> I just do not think that the "Mangas" should all be combined into one
>> subject. the headers WILL be based on the intended subject (ie. the
>> title of the books, or the name of its creater, etc...).  This is not
>> rudeness, I personally feel it is Fairness.
>
>It's rudeness.  People who post to rec.arts.comics are asked to keyword their
>subject lines to help people decide which articles to read and which ones to
>ignore.  Posts about manga should have MANGA: in the subject.
>

	Even you yourself are acknowledging the difference between Manga and
	comics. Elses, you would not have suggested this, would you?
	If Manga is supposed to be accepted as comics, there is no need what-	
	so-ever requiring to put specificly the word MANGA in the subject 
	line. 

	I would agree with Tommy Hwang, it's fairness, not rudeness.

	Think about it before pressing the 'F' key next time.
	
	

>If you didn't know about this guideline you could plead ignorance, but you
>can't.  Deliberately agitating people in rec.arts.comics *isn't* going to
>help your chances of getting the group you want. 
>
	You mean, agitating someone like only the one who typed this 
	above three lines?



>> Also, I think the comparasion should be more like "Mangas are comics
>> just like boxing is to Judo." (I hope you get it.) 
>
>Manga are to *western* comics as judo is to boxing.  Both manga and
>western comics are comics, and both boxing and judo are martial arts. So
>put the group where it belongs. 
>
	A question: how much different there is between 'comics' and 'western 
	comics' to you anyway? Honestly, admit to it, they were the same to you 
	until this discussion started a few days ago. If you did feel all the 
	way that there IS a difference between the two phrases even before this 
	subject comes along, go ahead and spell it out.

>--
>Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)


	Now, let's go back to the discussion of Rec.arts.Manga.

	=> Rec.arts.Manga !!!

---
  *- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -*
 /           Benjamin Wai         \\        < wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu >     \
(         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       \\        < wai@cn.ecn.purdue.edu >     )
 \ - - *   Purdue University   * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /
  * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american,soc.culture.indian
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:26:21 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School

In <axolotl.703132908@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>If anyone on news.groups remains uninformed on the nature of manga
>(ie. all manga, not the tiny subset of comic adaptations which a lot
>of mistaken people seem to be referring to), you should:

>     - post or email about specific uncertainties;
>  or - abstain from voting.

WRONG. People should vote on the group as proposed. And they should vote
any way they please. If you aren't prepared to write a CFV that appeals to
enough voters then you can't hide behind some sort of 'people should
abstain and not vote no' argument.

This discussion is intended to deal with any "specific uncertainties" and
resolve them before a vote begins. Once the vote has started it is too
late to voice concerns via email or any other way.

"No" votes are valid and appropriate no matter how much information the
voter has. I personally vote on a number of groups that I take no part in
the discussion of. I base my vote on the proposed charter in the CFV. If I
don't like the charter or the proposed name I vote NO.
Implying that anyone who is 'uninformed' does not have the right to vote
no is 100% wrong.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU  -  Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
_______________________________________________________________________________
     "Are you sure?"      |           "That's a lot of money for a head!"
 "Yeah.  Sure I'm sure."  |                        -The Ugly
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: soc.personals.ads.{male,female}.{seeking-male,seeking-female}
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 02:24:26 GMT

rawdon@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon) writes:
>Moreover, you say that you agree with me that the volume problems on
>alt.personals stem mainly from the test postings and discussion, neither of
>which will exist in the new group.  Where, then, do you believe the volume
>problems on these new groups will come from?  If, on the other hand, you
>believe that there will be no volume problems, then why do you wish to
>create more than one group?

The volume problem will come from these groups over time. Splitting it
now is much easier then splitting it in the future. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov           ames!elroy!dxh

Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that 
the person almost never uses the word.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: sander@engin.umich.edu (Scott D Anderson)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.games.mud.{tiny,diku,announce}
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 17:04:08 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <RSNYDER.92Apr16154815@nutrimat.fergie.dnet.ge.com> rsnyder@fergie.dnet.ge.com (Bob Snyder) writes:
>Scott> rgm.admin for registration concerns, network menaces, more rgm split
>Scott>           discussions, NMA, What To Do About mud.idiots, etc.
>
>I like the name, but I would think that it would be a place for mud
>administrator to talk about administrative problems (Idgitsfrom PSU
>sending mail to SysAdmins, how many resourses a mud takes up, etc)

this is what I meant... couldn't think of the example tho :)

>
>So a summury of my suggested changes to your YAP. :)
>
>rec.games.mud.announce (moderated)
>rec.games.mud.social -for discussion of social aspects of all muds
>rec.games.mud.adventure -for discussion of adventuring aspects of all muds
>rec.games.mud.admin -for discussion on admistering a mud
>rec.games.mud.lp -already exists
>rec.games.mud.tiny
>rec.games.mud.diku
>rec.games.mud.misc -for general discussion not appropriate to any one group
>rmgroup rec.games.mud
>
>Comments?

I like it, and I would support such a proposal.

>--
>Bob Snyder          rsnyder@fergie.dnet.ge.com, or rsnyder@atl.dnet.ge.com
>Computing Services  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ if it bounces, try ^^^^^^^^
>GE Aerospace, Advanced Technology Labs  (609) 866-6672 FX: (609) 866-6397

Baal@GodNet

-- 
CHOOSE          CHEAP                   Scott Anderson
  TWO:         /     \                  sander@engin.umich.edu
              /       \                 Entropy at its finest:
          FAST---------EASY            "Spam, spam, spam! Wonderful SPAM!"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: [flame] On those who run newgroup votes
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:12:48 GMT

atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Ran Atkinson) writes:
>The ongoing and increasing use of BIZARRE vote format restrictions as
>part of the voting process has gotten out of control.

>  I've run votes for a number of newsgroups (including huge votes like
>the IBM PC reorg) and there is NO GOOD REASON for people to have
>bizarre restrictions on how a vote is worded.  As long as it is clear
>that it is a vote and is not a comment AND it is clear what the vote
>is, the wording should not matter or make the vote invalid.

Well, it helps immensely with the vote counting.  We're talking
hundreds of votes here, and a way of semi-automating it is almost
necessary.   In my current CFV, most of the posts adhere to the
standard way requested in the post (I vote YES/NO on x.x.x.).  My
script catches these and automatically tallies them.  Those that don't
exactly follow the requested format take a little bit more work on my
part but are still acknowledged and counted.  So they still count.
However, the ones who do stick to the requested format do save a heck
of a lot of time, and I think it's a reasonable request.

Rejecting any vote that doesn't fit it exactly is one of your options,
but that certainly makes it harder to get your majority of 100 and is
guaranteed to upset some voters who may decide to vote the other way.
-- 
In Mexico we have a word for sushi: bait.  -- Josi Simon
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:57:46 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In <axolotl.702783389@syzygy>, axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:
> Nobody has still explained why rec.arts.comics.manga is "better".

Well, for one thing, people who don't know what manga are might have
a better chance of finding the group and getting interested if they
had some idea that "manga" are in some way related to comics. Not that
I care one way or the other.
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA ( Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:13:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr16.154128.1296@cco.caltech.edu>, tlynch@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
> 
> >Don't you think a proposer of the group which exists, should have some
> >criterion to evaluate under what circumstances a revote should be 
> > conducted ?
> 
> No.  And neither do most proposers/creators of a group.
> 
> Ask Roger Noe.  He was instrumental in the creation of rec.arts.startrek
> during the Great Renaming, but he never claimed this gave him special
> dispensation to decide how and when a split should take place.
> 
> Give it up, Alok.
> 
> Tim Lynch


Pardon me for my ignorance but I didn't quite understand what you mean here.

Do you mean to say that I should not go forward with the straw poll
to make a recommendation whether a new vote is required ?

Alok
From: joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Straw Poll: SCIA Revote or Not ?
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:42:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1992Apr14.231219.7195@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>This is a call for a straw poll ....

Sigh.  Alok, when are you going to learn that if you have no credibility,
the straw polls you run will not have any, either.  This whole mess
started because of your sleezy tactics in running a vote.   Those of
us who have listened to you yell, cry, whine, and lie for the last few
months are not going to change our minds because of a straw vote that
you manipulate.

Joshua Levy  (joshua@veritas.com)
Repeat 100 times:
    Alok can do no wrong: The net is out to get Alok.  :-)
From: eho@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Eamon  )
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:09:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <-+sjr1@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>
>Manga are to *western* comics as judo is to boxing.  Both manga and
>western comics are comics, and both boxing and judo are martial arts. So
>put the group where it belongs. 
>
>Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

With that analogy, would we place judo under boxing?  So we should place them
under Martial arts, or by analogy, rec.arts.  

Early on, alt.manga was used to replace a unwieldly mailconference which
was started because such conversations would not be appropriate in rec.comics
(nobody reads rec.comics looking for manga discussions in the past) so it
shouldn't be branched under rec.arts.comics as if it were once a large
subunit of the rec.arts.comics discussion.  
B
B
B

Eamon