Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: some gods are _not_ creaters of all things, apparently
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:03:04 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.


gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:

><adams.713716004@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>><adams.713105930@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>In the second example I can see the possiblity of a setup, yes I agree.
>>>But not in the first example.  Also, can you tell me who god was talking
>>>to when Adam and Eve heard him coming?  
>>The NIV says that they 'heard the sound of the Lord'...not heard him
>>talking.  I suspect God would have heavy footsteps...;-)
>I'd expect so, but my translation says "voice of god".
NRSV says 'sound', also, and it tends to be a good literal translation.
So, the quesiton is, who speaks Hebrew and can tell us? ;-)

>>Anyhow, my own personal opinion differs massively.  It has to do with my
>>own understanding of Gen 1:1-2:4 and Gen 2:5ff.  Basically, on day 6 of
>>creation (Gen 1:27ff) God creates man and woman.  THEN He rests on day 7.
>>Then, in Gen 2:4 He plants a garden and creates Adam.  God brings all of
>>the animals to Adam in search for a 'helper', and they are all rejected.
>>After this, God creates Eve, etc.
>>
>>Basically, when Cain is banished from the area around Eden, he marries one
>>of the 'Day 6' people...
>Doesn't follow - Gen 2:5 says that "there was no man to cultivate the
>ground".  So much for your theory. ;-)
Well, of course, since we're talking about the area where Eden was, there
were no people specifically there...;-)

>>God's goal, in my opinion, (and if I can speak to this, which is quite an
>>presumption on my part) was freely given love and freely ordained worship.

>If it was freely given and freely ordained (how can you really have "free
>worship"?) then why were there rules and regulations?  And penalties for
>breaking them?
There was but one rule...and that had nothing to do with worship of God,
IMHO, but was set out so as to show that God was sovereign.

>>God, in order to gain this, had to allow for the possibility of evil.  

>"had to"?  You mean an omnipotent being was incapable of creating free
>will without evil?

Poor choice of words...in order to acheive his goal, he set his parameters,
which included the creation of evil.

>>>This doesn't explain why Jesus is apparently unware of the reasons behind
>>>his death.

>>Jesus gave up some of his divine powers so that He could truly suffer as a
>>man.

>It doesn't follow that he wouldn't kow *why* it was done?  And when did he
>give up these powers?  Just before he was nailed to a tree?  I ask this
>because up to that time he was walking on water and killing fig trees
>without any problem.

No, it was before then.  Although he had retained some of the divine
powers, he did not retain all of them.  Specifically, he could, as a man,
suffer pain, injury and death.

I do believe that he knew what the point was...

>>>>>Also, your god seems surprised by the amount of evil in the world just
>>>>>before he floods the entire globe.
>>>>
>>>>Not at all.  He was grieved that men were doing the amount of evil that
>>>>they were.  Even though God knew in advance, that doesn't mean he wasn't
>>>>saddened and offedned.
>>
>>>It seems to me that he should get it right the second time, but he didn't.
>>
>>One of the unavoidable aspects of creation was evil.  

>This doesn't jive with the concept of a truly omnipotent being.  Nothing
>should be unavoidable for him.

'Unavoidable' from the standpoint the the parameters God set forth when he
decided to create.

>>                                                      Basically, the one
>>and only thing that God (cannot/will not) do is create another god.  Thus,
>>whatever He creates is slightly less perfect and slightly less good than
>>He.  Or, to look at it another way, God being the 'best', the created being
>>is the 'worst'...God being the most 'good', the created being is the most
>>'evil' thing in existence.  Not evil per se, but more so than God.

>I've seen these examples of yours before where "your love for god is so
>great that your love for other must appear as hate" and now this one.  I
>don't believe that this is a reasonable premise.  For example, my love for
>my wife is the greatest love I could possibly have for a woman.  That
>doesn't mean that I hate my mother, or that I hate other women.

No, but if you look at the scale :

|----------+----------|
^                     ^
|                     |
+-Absolute Hate       +-Absolute Love

Then your emotion towards Jesus is to be so close to Absolute that any
other 'love' on the continuum seems like hate...


>>>I see no evidence to support the contentions of the bible.  With all the
>>>errors in the bible it hardly qualifies as reliable.
>>
>>That's perfectly valid opinion.  We disagree on the topic, and it is
>>unlikely that I will convince you to change, or vice-versa.  I'll respect
>>your opinion, if you'll respect mine....course that means ya gotta listen
>>to me...;-)...or ignore me...you chose!  Ya never know, someday you might
>>just change your opinoin.

>I doubt that I'd ever change my opinion, unless some pretty impressive
>evidence was found.  But I do respect your opinions.  It's just that
>sometimes you voice your opinions like they are accepted *fact*.

Hey, for me they are..:-)  After all, I read the manual! ;-)

>>>It's tough to keep up on this thread though.  This damn work-stuff gets in
>>>the way. ;-)
>>
>>That is true...;-)  Gotta do SOMETHING to get paid...hmm, I wonder if I
>>could get a job that paid for posting to the net? ;-)
>
>If you find one, please let me know.

Sure...but by private email...there'd be some ROUGH competition! :-)

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
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