From: moller@austin.ibm.com (Chris Moller)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Clinton Policies (was: Re: Legalized Theft)
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:26:31 GMT
Reply-To: moller@austin.ibm.com
Organization: As little as I can get away with.

In article <00717533031@elgamy.sccsi.com>, elg@elgamy.sccsi.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:

[...]

Amazing!  For the first time, I actually agree with Mr Green!

> 
> That is why I advocate participation in government aid programs be made
> contingent upon either a) participating in a valid work-study program which
> leads to a job-ready degree or certification, or b) full-time work. Note
> that option b) would require some method of child care for single mothers
> -- the baby has to be SOMEWHERE when the mother is working.
> 
> The idea is not to make people dependent on welfare. Rather, the idea is to
> give people a boost to help them pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The only problem I see with this philosophy is that it seems me that
whenever a government offers any sort of tangible benefit to anyone
-- rich or poor -- vast throngs invariably line up to abuse that benefit.

> If
> people aren't willing to work and study towards making themselves a better
> and more productive member of this society, I don't advocate throwing them
> out on the street to starve (like some members of this group do). On the
> other hand, I don't advocate making their lives milk and honey, either. I
> think that many current programs are simply too extravagant and too, uhm,
> "liberal", when it comes to benefits. If someone wants to be lazy, put them
> into some sort of boot-camp style environment and make'em clean up our
> filthy roadsides and sweep up our filthy city streets. They might change
> their minds after working their tails off for eight hours a day under a
> blazing summer sun under the supervision of a stereotypical drill sergeant.
> 
> By the way, unlike what some people on this newsgroup seem to think, I am
> not a liberal. I am an operant contingent social behaviorist. Liberals hate
> many of the things I propose, like making welfare contingent upon becoming
> a productive member of society (i.e., no work towards becoming productive,
> no welfare). "demeaning", they say. "inhumane," they say. However, if the
> goal is to maximize societal wealth (and thus MY wealth :-), I think this
> is the only way to do it -- to take these currently-unproductive members of
> our society and give them the ultimatum, "do these things or starve." The
> higher the ratio of productive vs. unproductive members of this society,
> the more wealth there is for ALL of us. Such discussions, though, say the
> liberals, are "dehumanizing". I.e. the liberals say we should be helping
> the poor little darlings because it's "the right thing to do", rather than
> out of enlightened self-interest.
> 
> Conversely, I am also not a republican conservative, for the simple reason
> that I see some form of government as a necessity rather than as an evil.

The only problem I see with _this_ philosophy is that it seems me that
whenever a government is given any sort of authority over the citizenry,
it invariably abuses that authority.

> There needs to be some sort of social mechanism to insure that things like
> police protection, education, etc. are provided on a widespread basis. This
> is because the principle of enlightened self-interest assumes an
> enlightened population -- instead of a population which says "I don't care
> about any kids except my own." A well-educated workforce benefits all,
> employers and employees both, and every well-educated workforce on this
> planet has been the result of government. There does not exist a single
> country on this entire planet which has ever produced an educated workforce
> via private and charitable means. I have challenged the members of this
> network to correct me on this statement, but three years have passed and
> not a single person has ever found a counter-example.
> 
> I repeat: No country has ever educated a significant portion of its
> population via private means.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> --
>  Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.sccsi.com
>  uunet!nuchat!elgamy!elg      Houston, TX

-- 
IBM pays absolutely no attention to my	|   "Hell hath no fury like a
opinions, ergo the foregoing cannot	|   bureaucrat scorned."
possibly represent its position.	|     -- Milton Friedman

Christian H. L. Moller