HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: melby@DOVE.YK.FUJITSU.CO.JP ("John B. Melby")
Subject: Re: street, street and more streets ...
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 02:33:48 GMT

>I've come across 5 separate kanji in the "Kanji and Kana"
>book and "edict" that represent "street".  Unfortunately,
>I can't currently write JIS/EUC code on my xterm, so I'll
>give as much info as possible to help find them.

I haven't seen much of a response to this yet, so here goes....

>Nelson No.    Kanji & Kana No.  Kunyomi   Onyomi     Meaning
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>2995          182               machi     CHO^       town, street

In most cases, this means "town," not "street" (although it may in some
cases be interchangeable with GAI/KAI).  Note that the word "yokocho^"
(narrow shopping street) only uses the right side of this kanji (which
is a unit of length).

>4724          149               michi     DO^ (TO^)  street, way, path
>  (gives kokudo^ (kanji for country + this) = national highway)

The word "michi" refers to anything from a path to a road.  An additional
kanji (KEI, michi as in "keiro" and "komichi") refers specifically to a small
path.

>1626          186               machi     GAI, KAI   street
>  (gives gairo (this + next kanji ) = street)
>  (gives kaido^ (this + previous kanji) = street, highway)

This tends to be a major thoroughfare or a shopping street.

>4561          151                -ji      RO         street, way
>  (gives do^ro (this + nelson 4724 above) == street, road)

This is generally close to the English word "road."

>                                 tsuji               street
>  (sorry, got this off edict but can't find the kanji
>   its radical 162 - 3 strokes, to the left of radical 24)

I think this means something along the line of "road branching out from a
junction" (correct me if I'm wrong).

-----
John B. Melby
Fujitsu Limited, Yokohama
melby%yk.fujitsu.co.jp@fai.com
From: jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Fluency?  Do You Have Native Fluency or are you just Reading fluent?
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:25:46 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Most people I know often make distinctions between 'fluent' speakers
saying this person has _native fluency_ this person is _verbally
fluent_, etc.  Perhaps we're drawing too constrictive a standard for
fluency?
-- 
jamiller@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
James Miller

_chicchai .sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka_
             Life Happens?
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: language question
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:29:21 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <w27gPB2w165w@tsoft.sf-bay.org> bbs.lar@tsoft.sf-bay.org (Larry Greenfield) writes:
>I think my mind is going, especially during thesis-writing. 
>Anyway, is "...shite imasu" right for "knowing"?

	You should write "shitte imasu."

>What I'm trying to say, is... 
>If I want to say "do you know what time he will return", would
>"kaeru jikan wo shite imasu ka" be ok? (do you know the return time)? For 
>some reason, this doesn't look right now, but I thought that was how it 
>was said.

	You should say "kare wa itsu kaeri masu ka" or "kare wa naNji ni kaeri
	masu ka."  "Laeru jikan wo..." sounds very foreign to me though it's
	GRAMMATICALLY OK.


>  Also, what is the word for "everybody"?  (subete no hito?  Hmm, isn't 
>there a single word?)  As in "everybody drives fast", or "almost 
>everybody likes to go to the beach", etc.
>  Pleas, what is the expression for "everybody" and "almost everybody". 
>Thaks1@
>:::::Larry:::::
>
	everybody . . . miNna
		everybody drives fast
		= miNna hayaku uNteN suru
		  (still saounds odd to me and I would say:
		   miNna sugoi supi^do de uNteN suru.)

	almost everybody . . . hotoNdo miNna, hotoNdo no hito, taitei no hito,
			       taitei, hotoNdo, etc.

		in the case of "almost everybody likes to go to the beach,"
		I would say;
			"taitei no hito wa umi e iku no ga suki desu."
		because "hotoNdo" sounds too strong, at least to me.


	Hope this helps.

						Tetsuya Nishimura
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mtachiba@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Masahiko Tachibana)
Subject: Re: `fluency in Japanese'
Organization: Institute of Physical & Chemical Research (RIKEN) Saitama,Japan
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:49:11 GMT

In article <DAVE.92Aug20181834@pipi.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp> dave@pipi.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp (David Wuertele) writes:
>harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) writes: 
>>    And you also forgot to mention listening ability...  An earmark for
>> this would be if one could watch Shimura Ken's TV programs and hear
>> everything he says (hey, news is too easy)...
>
>Is Shimura Ken the dude on TV Asahi with punch perm hair?  I think he
>talks fast, but very clearly.  I find some of the other casters who talk
>more slowly harder to understand.  For example, the regular guys on TV
>Tokyo's "Business Sattellite."  (Of course, they'd probably be easier to
>understand if they weren't so F**KING BORING!)

No, no, the tall guy with look-like punch perm hair is Kume Hiroshi, the
main caster of News Station on TV Asahi.

If you want to know who Shimura Ken is, tune Fuji TV at 8 o'clock 
`Daijobu-daa' on every monday evening.  You will easily find a host
comedian with wide front, thick eye-braw in long face.   That's him.


>The hardest guys for me to follow are people like Beat (SP?) Takeshi, who
>mumble and slur and whine all in the same utterance.  This is so hard, but
>it seems that, at least to my Japanese friends, his speech is clear as a
>bell.

Clear as a bell?   No, I don't think so, I can hear him speaking, though. 

>-----
>  $B%o%F%k(B $B%G%#%S%C%H!w0BED8&(B. $BEE;R9)3X@l96(B. $B9)3X7O8&5f2J(B. $BEl5~Bg3X(B. $B=$;N(B1$BG/(B.
>David Wuertele, Yasuda Lab, Electronic Engineering, Institute of Industrial Science,
>University of Tokyo.				dave@windsor.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp

Did you give up the bike-race?  >David    :-< 

--
$B5L(B  $B2mI'(B (Tachibana Masahiko)			mtachiba@rkna50.riken.go.jp
$BM}2=3X8&5f=jM-5!6bB02=3X8&5f<<(B			Tel. 048-462-1111 ext.3513
Inst.Phys.Chem.Res.,Lab.Organometal.Chem. 	Fax  048-462-4665
From: craig@ariel.earth.nwu.edu (Craig R. Bina)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen usage
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:20:58 GMT
Organization: Geological Sciences Department, Northwestern University


  Here are a few technical observations on wakaru/shiru usage which
may or may not be useful.

  Wakarimasu might be literally translated as "understanding exists".
It is an intransitive verb (requiring no object) used in the patterns:
  Watakushi wa SOMETHING ga wakarimasu (wakarimashita).
  Watakushi wa SOMETHING ga wakarimasen (wakarimasen deshita).
Here, SOMETHING is the subject that is understood by watakushi.
This usage impies that SOMETHING is (has been) successfully or
unsuccessfully processed by one's mental faculties.
  Note that wakarimasu is used in the (imperfect or perfect) indicative
in both the affirmative and negative.  It describes a mental process
which does or does not occur.

  Shirimasu might be literally translated as "come to know".
It is an transitive verb (requiring a direct object) used in the patterns:
  Watakushi wa SOMETHING o shitte imasu (shitte imashita).
  Watakushi wa SOMETHING o shirimasen (shirimasen deshita).
Here, SOMETHING is the object that has come to be known by watakushi.
This usage implies that SOMETHING has been received as information or
knowledge from outside oneself.  (Hence, if someone asks you where you
are going for your vacation and you haven't yet decided, you must use
wakarimasen; shirimasen would imply that you hadn't yet been told where
to go.)
  Note that shirimasu can only be used in the (imperfect or perfect) stative
(i.e., shitte iru) in the affirmative; on the other hand, shirimasu can only
be used in the (imperfect or perfect) indicative in the negative.  This is
because once you have come to know something, you are then in the state of
having come to know it, hence the stative (cf. progressive).  On the other
hand, if you haven't come to know something, you are not yet in the
state of having come to know it, hence the indicative.

-- 
_______
Craig R. Bina, Asst. Prof.
Dept. of Geological Sci., Northwestern Univ.
Evanston, Illinois, craig@earth.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: cmr@WORLD.STD.COM ("Charles Richmond, I.I.S. Corp.,              723-7695", 617)
Subject: Re: Japanese texts (on-line) wanted.
X-Unparsable-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11: 02:56 TZONE
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:03:02 GMT

Great Idea!!!  Could you email to me also!!

Charlie
$B$*Hh$lMM(J


*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
*  One Longfellow Place Suite 3309 , Boston , Ma. USA 02114-2431            *
*  (617) 723 7695	FAX (617) 723 6861                                  *
*****************************************************************************




On Fri, 21 Aug 1992, Marc Kossa wrote:

> Hi !
> I'm looking for some texts in electronic form in order to improve my
> japanese reading. If you have a short or long text somewhere on your
> disk, can you mail it to me ?
> Doomo arigatoo gozaimasu.
> --
>           /| /|             |  /
>          / |/ |  _  ._   _  |_/  _ < <   _
>         /     |_(_(_/ |_(_  | \_(_)_>_>_(_(_      $B9C:4!!GO3?6n(J
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Bull SA, BP 208        | E-mail    : M.Kossa@frec.bull.fr          |
> | 1 Rue de Provence      | Phone (W) : 33 76397500 ext 7421          |
> | 38432 Echirolles CEDEX |       (H) : Are you kidding ?             |
> | FRANCE                 | Office    : FREC B1-163                   |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> "Soyez sage les enfants"                        - Robocop in "Robocop"
From: mgn@cup.portal.com (Mike G Newman)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Mac - Shizuoka Font Set
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 17:03:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Can someone post, mail or otherwise point me to English
language instructions for installing the Shizuoka Font
Set for the Mac?

Thanks

+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
|   Mike G Newman               |  mgn@cup.portal.com            |
|   BX 1510                     |  MCI:   mnewman (333-1196)     |
|   Saipan MP 96950             |  Phone: 670-234-7726           |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mathias@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B. Mathias)
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen usage
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:27:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.162058.16535@news.acns.nwu.edu> craig@ariel.earth.nwu.edu (Craig R. Bina) writes:
>
>  Here are a few technical observations on wakaru/shiru usage which
>may or may not be useful.
>
>  Wakarimasu might be literally translated as "understanding exists".

Well, I wonder what you mean by "literal"?  Since there is no part of the
word `wakarimasu' which means "understanding" and no part of the word which
means "exists," I find it difficult to accept "understanding exists" as a
literal translation of it.
     Think was a stupid question `wakarimasu ka' would be if it really meant
"Does understanding exist?"  We all know without asking that understanding
does indeed exist, if not in the same measure as misunderstanding.  :-)
     Your statement reads like Eleanor Jorden at her worst; she says some-
thing analogous about `ikimasu.'  (Of course going exists--always has and
always will!)

>It is an intransitive verb (requiring no object) used in the patterns:

You'll get a lot of argument out of some linguists about that "intransitive."
I won't take sides until someone comes up with a satisfactory definition
definition of "transitive."  What counts is your next point:  `wakar-' is a
verb for which one must understand two arguments, an understander and some-
thing to be understood.  Whether they're subjects or objects or what is
a deep theoretical question of real concern only to scientific linguists
(but note that only the "understandee" can ever be marked with `-o').

>  Watakushi wa SOMETHING ga wakarimasu (wakarimashita).
>  Watakushi wa SOMETHING ga wakarimasen (wakarimasen deshita).
>Here, SOMETHING is the subject that is understood by watakushi.
>which does or does not occur.

Bart Mathias

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold)
Subject: Re: kanji of the day #29
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:21:50 GMT

In article <9208111243.AA03808@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>KANJI OF THE DAY # 29
[deleted]

Does anyone have a table/book/reference to the radicals used as building
blocks for kanji.  I remember some postings saying that it was easier to
figure out new kanji and remember old with a thourough understanding of
radicals, and anyway I'm often curious when I learn a new kanji what the
radicals (or elements) mean.

A posting similar to Kanji of the day (Daily radical???) would also be
nice.  Any takers...?

>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Kurt Stueber
>e-mail: stueber@vax.mpiz-koeln.mpg.dbp.de
>Tel:  +49-221-5062537
>Fax:  +49-221-5062513
>
>This is Nr. 0029
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaa mata,
Thor
edmtl@fiol.uib.no
From: ebender@ocf.berkeley.edu (Emily Bender)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: more on fluency
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:40:59 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: lightning.berkeley.edu

To belabor an old topic a little bit more...

It seems to me that the more important side of fluency is
comprehension.  I once heard a quote to the effect of 
"reading something in translation is like examining the
back of a piece of tapestry."  Similarly, it is only 
through good comprehension of a language that one can
learn about the culture it comes from.  Asking a bunch
of questions about Japanese culture in Japan, but in
English won't lead to a full appreciation.  Subtle things
like connotation are easily lost in translation.

The most important results of speaking well are that 
through using word, phrases, sentence structure, etc.
we may gain a better understanding of them, and that
you can make a conversation go deeper and longer if you
speak well (it is easier on the other person).
"Perfect" Japanese and being mistook for a native over
the phone are just perks, although fun to strive for.

Emily
ebender@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Mourinng customs
Date: 16 Aug 92 03:44:00 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <9208152217.AA07101@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>I am doing some research on mourning across cultures. I was wondering if anyone
> out there knows about the different Japanese funeral customs. My wife is a "ni
>honjin" so she has filled me in some, but she does not practice a religion. I w
>as particularly interested in the differences (if any) between the Bhuddists an
>d Shinto. All information will be really appreciated.

	You might want to take a look at a video, titled "Oso^shiki", directed
	by Juzo^ Itami.  I think it's available in the States under the title of
	"Funeral."  That's funny and interesting though, at the same time it's 
	very informative even to many Japanese.

	Hope this helps.

						Tetsuya Nishimura
From: toho@parc.xerox.com (Masato Toho)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: sumimasen vs arigatou?
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:08:13 GMT
Reply-To: toho@parc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox PARC, Palo Alto, CA

I'm a Japanese living in the USA for 3 years.

>   It raised a puzzling question for me:
> in what case is better to say arigatou (thank you) and in what case -
> sumimasen (thank you)? Can it be that they are used both simultaneously
> in one situation? :-)

I personally don't like to use "sumimasen" for the meaning of "thank
you" in any situation, since "sumimasen" means "execuse me" basically.
You can, however, use "sumimasen" to express little thanks.

For example:
    If in a crowded place, someone moved a little to let you go thorough,
    or on a train someone moved a little to make a room for you to sit down,
    or someone picked up a pen you dropped,
	you could say "sumimasen" (or "arigatou").

    When your boy friend give you a diamond ring,
	say "Arigaou!!" (do NOT say "sumimasen").

When you are not sure, use "arigatou". It's safer choise.

And, for fairness, I should mention that Japanese use "sumimasen"
instead of "arigatou" or "gomennasai" more often in those days than
before. So, you hear more and more "sumimasen", and less "arigatou" or
"gomennasai" now.

>   Also I've noticed that japanese often says last phrase on the
> phone - "sumimaseeeen". Is it something like "good bye" or really
> apologize?

I havn't noticed this (well, maybe because I'm away from Japan for 3 year.).
Isn't it "shitsurei shimasu" or "sumimasen, shitsurei shimasu"?

--
Masato Toho, Fuji Xerox Co.,Ltd. (at Xerox PARC)
toho@parc.xerox.com (preferred)
toho@rst.fujixerox.co.jp
"It takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place"
From: rick@rahul.net (John D'Elia)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Cannon Wordtank ID-8000 specs?
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:34:26 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SDF-Macross

I'm looking for a good electronic E-J, J-E, Kanji dictionary and I came across 
the Cannon Wordtank ID-7000.  I hear there is an ID-8000 which has more entries.  Can someone give me specs on this unit?  Are there any better electronic E-J, J-E, Kanji dictionaries?  Thanks for any help!



--
 Internet: rick@bolero.rahul.net   | Best    Gato: You! have they loaded the
 SnailMail: Why bother?            | 0083          bazooka with the warhead? 
 *Nihongo o hanaseba, hanashiyou!* | Scene   Fedies: Y-yes sir! 
         ** Zieg Jion! **          | !!!!!   Gato: Good, then I'll test it!  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: tozaki@math.keio.ac.jp (Hidekazu TOZAKI)
Subject: Re: what happen with 'wo'?
Organization: Faculty of Sci. and Tech., Keio Univ., Yokohama, Japan.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:44:53 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.174349.10@iris-dcp.es> mcastro@iris-dcp.es writes:
 >! translations as 'o':
 >! 	   Are o misete kudasai
 >! so, 
 >! 	    what hapen with 'wo'?

  Hello.

  Of cource there still remains 'wo' notation. When you write the
above entence with kana (with kanji), write 'wo' (JIS: $@$r(J).

  As for the pronunciation, however, those who pronouce as 'wo' have
been decreasing, now many pronounce just 'o'.

  And there are at least 3 major Romaji systems. Some uses 'wo', some
'o' for the kana 'wo'. That all depend on the book which systems to use.

Regards,
--
Hidekazu TOZAKI
Faculty of Science and Technology, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan.
E-mail: tozaki@nak.math.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen)
Subject: Radicals (Was: kanji of the day #29)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:54:56 GMT

edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold) writes:

>Does anyone have a table/book/reference to the radicals used as building
>blocks for kanji.  I remember some postings saying that it was easier to
>figure out new kanji and remember old with a thourough understanding of
>radicals, and anyway I'm often curious when I learn a new kanji what the
>radicals (or elements) mean.

>A posting similar to Kanji of the day (Daily radical???) would also be
>nice.  Any takers...?

Most kanji dictionaries have such tables. For example, Nelson has a large
appendix showing most/all the radicals used in the various positions.

The body of Nelson gives the name and nickname of each radical. The Canon
Wordtank in "kanwa" mode gives the name of the indexing radical
for each character.

The XJDIC distribution includes a file "radicals.tm", which contains
all the radicals used in Nelson, along with their sequence numbers.

-- 
Jim Breen                           JIS:$B%8%`!!%V%j!<%s(J
Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. 
PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 
(fax) +61 3 573 2345  AARNet/Internet:jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen usage
From: Peter.Weekes@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 06:12:08 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange


Use wakarimasen when someone asks you a question which you don't know the
answer to. 

Use shirimasen when you are in a social situation demanding a super polite
response. 

-- 
Peter Weekes          PARADOX Consultant             |
Box 7163              Parasitologist                 | 
Wellington South      Epidemiologist                 |   
New Zealand           Peter.Weekes@bbs.actrix.gen.nz |           
From: mzw_t@hpjsdo.kobe.hp.com (Takashi Matsuzawa)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 01:52:26 GMT
Subject: Re: OTAKU is Chinese, not Altaic
Organization: Yokogawa Hewlett-Packard, Ltd.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan

In sci.lang.japan, yusuke@hara.cs.keio.ac.jp (Yusuke Hiwasaki) writes:

> Very interesting indeed, but I really do not think that this is correct.
> OTAKU is a formal way of saying TAKU (i.e. putting "O" in front of nouns
> which you want to say in a formal way). Traditionally, written in Kanji,
> it is separated as:
> 

Here is what I have knew as the origin of the word "otaku."  At the SF
conventions' or markets for Manga-fans there gather long-haird young
boys who usually wear dirty T-shirt and jeans.  They go everywhere with
this style and have no manners.  (They are not wild but too shy.)

They do not know to speak to another person: They always call others
"otaku."  Please think of "otaku" as the inpolite version of "you."
Many Japanese feel bad being called "otaku" from others.

So, the original meaning of "otaku" was "the boys who are mannerless
and do not know how to call others but Otaku."  Using "anata" whould
be better, but as many of you know in Japanese language not using "you"
is more polite and acceptable.

They are mannerless because they are not able to speak polite in
Japanese.

---
Takashi Matsuzawa
Japan SDO, APPO, Hewlett-Packard Company
TEL: +81 3-3335-8220, HP-Telnet: 800-5847 (Japan), 364-5847 (HP-Wide)
FAX: +81 3-3335-6454, Internet: mzw_t@yhp.co.jp (Japan), mzw_t@yhp.hp.com (Others)
From: rick@rahul.net (John D'Elia)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Using JIS with a Mac (HELP!)
Summary: Configuring a Mac for JIS usage
Date: 22 Aug 92 22:10:09 GMT
Organization: SDF-Macross

Hello.  I'm trying to view kanji on my macintosh (over the modem)...  I'm running Kanjitalk 6.0.7 (patched with Gomtalk to make it 7.0.1).  I'm also 
running Ninjaterm, which seems to have options for using JIS codes.  The
problem is that I still don't see the Kanji.  Is there some trick?  
Kanjitalk runs fine.  I can do word processing, etc with Japanese.  Can
someone help me configure my system so I can see JIS Kanji?  

Thanks in advanced.

--
 Internet: rick@bolero.rahul.net   | Best    Gato: You! have they loaded the
 SnailMail: Why bother?            | 0083          bazooka with the warhead? 
 *Nihongo o hanaseba, hanashiyou!* | Scene   Fedies: Y-yes sir! 
         ** Zieg Jion! **          | !!!!!   Gato: Good, then I'll test it!  
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan