HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum)
Subject: Re: The Difference Injure..
Reply-To: rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov
Organization: Boeing Computer Support Services
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:31:57 GMT

Violence, of course, has its plusses and minuses--but the few times the
troll has used it, it has worked--

I had an interesting childhood (assuming you can believe the troll was
ever a child).  I grew up in a fairly small town in the south, where there
was a great deal of interest in physical sports, like football and baseball,
and participation in these were expected of largish persons of the male
gender.  The troll, of course, was more interested in anything but that--I
preferred hard science, books, and music instead of hard knock sports.  Yep, 
I was a class "A" misfit, who was an obvious wierdo to boot.  It didn't
help that having the name "Krum" lead to a great many cruel comments and
jibes--crummmy this n' that jokes, etc--fill in the blanks as desired.

Fortunately, I was well aware that this was basically BS and jealousy
being put out buy small minds, of no interest to me.  So, I did my own
thing, and my family supported me.  BTW, the Krum name is not really
Germanic--it came down the Norwegian side of the family, and I am most like
the "Black Vikings"--dark-haired, dark-eyed--of the old Norwegian stock,
although my father and brother were blonde, blue-eyed types.  The "Black
Vikings," as I am told by my Grandfather, were the real berserker types--
quiet, moody, and strange (boy, he got that one right!).  Based on this
knowledge, I refused to respond to the silliness.  When I was forced to,
the other guy lost, BIG time, and that generated a great deal of space for
me.

Violence, of course, never solves anything--let's ask the former inhabitants
of places like Sodom and Gommorah and other biblical/historical places that
have survived (?) violence :>)!  I tend to have a Heinlienesque (is that a
word) attitude--i.e. your rights end where mine begin.  

Whew--sounds like this wandered off into the weeds--CUT!  Philosophy tends
to tire the troll's thinker--it's all an exercise that means little anyway.

"To Philosophy and philosophers, long may they disagree, it's the last REAL
choice we all have!"

<Crash>   <WHooof>     <Tinkle>

--Troll  

---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinions are my own, and my employer (Boeing Computer Support Services)
 denies any responsibility for me, all opinions in general, and anything 
 I may say, do, or be otherwise associated with outside of work for them.
 -- Use at your own risk, your mileage may vary, no news is good news."

 E-MAIL REPLY TO:  rich@troll1.msfc.nasa.gov     PLEASE KEEP IT "G" RATED
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ajm@wag.caltech.edu (Abner J. Mintz)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Date: 23 Nov 1992 05:58:05 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: degas.wag.caltech.edu

P'relan writes:
>>>No, even one violation of the physical laws invalidates science.  Extremely
>>>limited intervention does not prevent science from being *useful* though it
>>>remove any chance of it being correct which may be what you meant by not
>>>invalidating science.
 
>> Hmmm.  Depends.  Maybe you can expand science to cover the violations.  In
>> other words, if the rules as known are being violated, start studying when
>> the violations occur.  Then classify them, and start theorizing how such
>> violations could occur.

>> The only reason we can't study the rules outside the universe ('outside the
>> pinball machine') is lack of access to this outside.  By studying the actions
>> of a being outside the machine, could we get some idea of the being's nature
>> and thus the nature of the outside?

>I think from Michael's description of the pinball universe, there wasn't
>way of systemizing the violations, certainly there isn't from an omnipotent
>being who could do anything, in order to incorporate them into the laws
>of physics.  Now if you could come up with metalaws valid for Fred and the
>pinball universe then you wouldn't have a problem.
 
Essentially, the existance of a being that can violate the laws of nature as
we know them splits science into two disciplines: the study of nature when
that being is not around, and the study of the being itself.  If the being
can do *anything* from our perspective, maybe physics wouldn't have much of
a shot at getting any productive conclusions ... so let's see if any sane
psychologists can figure out why the deity does what he does!

Hmmm.  Maybe science gets split into science and psychotheology?

>> The next time Jesus Christ shows up, I say we draft him and send him to 
>> Caltech to be studied!    ;)

>Hey!  Keep those Chemists away from any deities - Physics is more fundamental
>so we should get to study them first!  (-:

Yes, but you can't put a deity in an accelerator and see what energy it takes
to split him into demigods ...  Meanwhile, we chemists have a long history of
dealing with deities!  Mercury, for example ...
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: keulen@possum.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Mike van Keulen)
Subject: Re: puns and cons
Organization: Murdoch University
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:27:17 GMT

s903040@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Christopher Francis Anderson) writes:

>olson@husc8.harvard.edu (Chip Olson@somewhere.out.there) writes:


>>"I'm going to be there... anyone else? RealSpace, anyone?"

>Only if you pay for my plane tickets.

>;-)

>-- 
>ThunderKat (a.k.a. Chris Anderson)    s903040@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

Ditto, plus another $.5k to get over from the other side of Oz  :-) :-)

Splash!

--
***************************** Michael van Keulen *************************** 
* Snail: School of BES - Biology         e-mail: keulen@murdoch.edu.au     *
*        Murdoch University              phone:  ++ 61 (09) 360-2843 (work)*
*        Murdoch WA 6150  AUSTRALIA              ++ 61 (09) 417-3902 (home)*
*************************** "To Love is to _LIVE_!" ************************
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: No subject 
From: olson@husc9.Harvard.EDU (Charles Olson)
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:15:31 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Spam-On-A-Rope Inc.

>Mary wanders over to the bar from where she's been sitting quitely 
>near CD.

[absolutely marvelous philosophical ramble deleted]

>"To people, people. To life and growth and pain and endings and 
>beginnings and realising and remembering it's a journey - we don't 
>stay static - and to reaching the next wonderful place on the road, 
>just when you thought you were stuck in roadworks for the foreseeable 
>future! To the pasts and the places and the people and the 
>happenstances that make futures for us. To us and the Place.
>Allez-oooop!"
>She hurls the glass into the fireplace and the crash-tinkly is 
>followed by a gentle 'whoosh' and a very pretty coloured ball of 
>flame.
>"Aaah. Nice. Mike, a mango tea to relax with please."
>and Mary heads off around the place, a smile of real happiness on her 
>face, looking for some friends to hug and maybe a cat to stroke.

Castellan puts himself in Mary's line of wandering and gives her a warm hug.
"Thank you... that post really did something to improve a rather obnoxious
day I'd been having."


-- 
-Chip Olson. | olson@husc.harvard.edu | ceo@{gnu.ai,silver.lcs}.mit.edu 
"These are the days you might fill with laughter until you break. These days
you might feel a shaft of light make its way across your face... And when you 
do you'll know how it was meant to be..." -10,000 Maniacs, "These Are Days"
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: God and Science:  The Ramblings of The Nightstalker
Date: 17 Nov 1992 05:34:51 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov17.012155.27920@news.Hawaii.Edu>, mwasson@minnie.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael Wasson) writes:
=>actions.  But, I consider the idea that, say, genocide or torture is
=>merely a matter of different but equally valid moral standards to be
=>an absurdity.  Many people find it possible not to find it absurd, but
=>since that's the crux of why _I'm_ not a relativist (and therefore why I
=>think there is a universal moral meaning in human actions)
=>disagreements here don't seem to be able to go any further."
=
="Hmm.  One argument I've heard against moral relativism goes like this:
=
=If I say, 'I believe the world is flat,' that's a *claim* that the
=world is, in fact, flat.  You wouldn't say 'I believe the world is
=flat but I'm wrong.'  Moral relativists seem to be saying something
=quite like that in the realm of normative truths.  'I personally 
=believe that X is wrong, though it may not be wrong for somebody else'
=is just like saying 'I believe the world is flat but it may not be
=flat for somebody else'.  By this argument, moral relativism is not
=distinct from moral nihilism -- itself a consistent enough position if
=you care to adopt it, but one most moral relativists would (I think)
=shy away from."

Well, if we're going to argue by analogy without presenting arguments as to why
the analogies might be valid, try this one:
	I believe injecting 22 units of insulin every morning is good, but it
	might not be good for somebody else.
OK, now we've got one analogy proving that moral relativism is silly, and one
analogy proving that moral relativism is well-grounded.

Either that or we've got an example of why arguing by analogy doesn't work.

=Gecko-boy sips contemplatively from his Dos Equis.
=
="The scary thing is, I got this argument from my *mom*, who just
=did her master's work in philosophy.  I myself switched out of
=that major while the going was good.... ;-)"

Well, would you ask her how she'd handle MY analogy?
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: pope@physics.su.OZ.AU (The Nightstalker)
Subject: Re: I'm Published!!!
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:03:07 GMT

>In article <1992Nov11.141245.23962@openage.openage.com>,
>gryphon@openage.openage.com (The Golden Gryphon) wrote:
>>   The Golden
>> Gryphon heads over to the bulletin board, and pins up several copies of a
>> magazine, and then heads for the bar.
>> 
>> "Mike,  I would like a Long Island Iced Tea for me, and a round for the house."
>> TGG plunks down several bills on the bar, and heads to the chalk line.
>> 
>> "My friends.  A lifelong dream of mine has just come true.  Through luck and
>> lots of hard work I have finally gotten published!!  The first copies of my
>> work have already been shipped, and the reviews look good.  Don't look in your

The Nightstalker looks on and grins.  He waves his glass in the Golden
Gryphon's direction.

"Congratulations!  It is a good feeling to have your name on something.
Mike, his next drink is on me (yes I know the tired old pun, my clothes
are also waterproof, ah the joys of VR)."

<crash>




--

Mick Pope,                                          I      "On Christ the
Sir Frank Packer Dept of Theoretical Physics,   ----+----   solid rock I
School of Physics, University of Sydney,            I       stand, all other
Sydney, Australia, 2006.  (02) 692 3241             I       ground is sinking
                                                    I       sand." - C. Wesley
                                                    I 

And the comment for today is:  

          
"There is a fine line between clever and stupid."  -  Spinal Tap

Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: OOOOPS - Forgot
Date: 19 Nov 1992 13:17:35 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov19.112504.2677@bradford.ac.uk>, S.S.B.Glover@bradford.ac.uk (SSB GLOVER) writes:

>Do we have any other chemists in the house? X-ray crystallographers?

Well, Abner's a chemist.
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: God and Science: The Ramblings of The Nightstalker
Date: 21 Nov 1992 03:34:22 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <STEVE.92Nov20164310@styx.crc.ricoh.COM>, steve@crc.ricoh.COM (Stephen R. Savitzky) writes:
>"The true meaning of 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom of religion' is
>that the U.S. Constitution specifically defines speech and religious
>practices as being non-injurious (with a few exceptions, though IMHO
>not few enough)."

StM once again looks confused.  "I don't know whether  I  agree  with  you  or
disagree  with  you.   Your  statement  is  somewhat  ambiguous.  If you meant
`defines speech and religions practices as not being intrinsically injurious,'
I agree with you.  If you mean it precisely as stated, I disagree with you.  I
agree with Justice Holmes, I think it was:  Freedom of speech does NOT  extend
to  yelling `FIRE!' in a crowded theater (unless, of course, there IS a fire).
Such exercises of speech  are,  in  most  places,  illegal,  and  rightly  so.
Furthermore,  slander  and  libel can be injurious, though these are civil and
not criminal offenses.  Remember:  The Bill  of  Rights  does  NOT  limit  the
rights  of private citizens (or, as the Constitution puts it `The People'); it
limits the power of the government to restrict the rights of the  people.   Or
at  least  that's  what it meant when it was written.  Part of it says that it
means whatever the Supreme Court decides  it  means,  and  in  the  last  half
century,  they  decided  that  the  9th  (I think it's the ninth; the one that
explicitly states that any powers not explicitly granted to the government are
reserved for the people) doesn't count."
From: S.S.B.Glover@bradford.ac.uk (SSB GLOVER)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: OOOOPS - Forgot
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:25:04 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92909131@ccw301
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Niles E. VanDenburg (nev@Turing.ORG) wrote:
: 
: Awwww shucks - just when you got my hopes up that another bio/bot
: person had walked in - oh well - I guess the astro people still have
: us outnumbered.
 
For what it's worth, I spent almost seven years working in a biophysics 
(later "biochemistry and molecular biology") department, but I'm a chemist
by training (honest!) and now retraining in computer science...

Do we have any other chemists in the house? X-ray crystallographers?

Philosophy
Math = Applied Philosophy
Physics = Applied Math
Chemistry = Applied Physics
Biology = Applied Chemistry
Sociology = Applied Biology
Arts = Applied Sociology

(NB '=' in this context merely means 'is a subset of' or similar)

To Classifications! (and does ontology recapitulate philology?)

Flying through the air
the not quite empty glass
misses the grate and rolls.

((come on! Are we all such good shots that we NEVER miss the fireplace?))
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re:  Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Date: 19 Nov 1992 13:11:45 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov19.052510.5347@midway.uchicago.edu>, mss2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
>>Abner blinks, looking startled.  "Wait a minute ...  If sex not directed
=>towards procreation is sinful, then does the Catholic Church officially
=>oppose sex after the wife hits menopause?"  After considering a bit, Abner
=>is sure that he would have heard about any belief that silly.  Still, that
=>means there must be a flaw in the logic chain somewhere.  "If the Catholic
=>Church *doesn't* oppose sex after the woman hits menopause, how would they
=>make that consistant with sex being sinful if not aimed at procreation?"
=
=	Michael smiles and shrugs.  "Search me.  As noted in another
=article, I can't understand how they reconcile Natural Family Planning
=(i.e. timing intercourse to avoid fertile periods) with their primary
=stance, which seems an even greater problem.  As for sex after
=menopause, I suspect that it is discouraged, at least if anyone asks,
=but I'll grant I haven't seen any big campaigns against it either.

Why should it be discouraged?  There's precedent for it in the Bible, isn't
there?  I'd've thought that the story of Abraham would be considered sufficient
reason to permit it.
From: JBrandt@AAA.UOregon.EDU (Jay Brandt (Jason))
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Rejoice, and Velvet reels
Followup-To: alt.callahans
Date: 20 Nov 1992 21:31:15 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Architecture
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aaa.uoregon.edu

In article <memo.761041@cix.compulink.co.uk>, maryb@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Mary Branscombe) wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <1992Nov18.171704.14309@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> mfbertke@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Mary Bertke....Gwen MacThaidhg)
> 
> Hi Velvet. I wouldn't normally say that I'm that keen on Celtic music 
> although my tasts vary from eclectic to catholic depending on the 
> time of day. But I went to a *superb* gig by Robin Williamson from 
> the Incredible String Band last tuesday... mostly harp and truly 
> beautiful music....real songs, real stories, real music (real good 
> evening)
> Jason - do you know a harp piece called the blackbird, whihc can be 
> played fast or slow (or both to show you can do it!!)?

"I believe I've heard it before, yes. Unfortunately my musical performing
skills are all vocal, unless you count what I can coax out of my
cyberdeck."

He pauses a moment and laughs. "Well, maybe not completely vocal. <heh heh>
There's a piece called 'Lannigan's Ball' that's a favorite of a friend of
mine in the SCA who, like myself, is also inclined to be a bard. But he's
far better than I with guitar or with bagpipes. At a tourney one fine day
he sat down in the front of my pavillion with his guitar, where I was
making furniture, and started playing that piece. I started a rythim with
my coping saw to match him, and we started off into seeing just how fast he
could sing and play while I kept up a merry counterpoint with the saw. All
the while doing functional cuts to form the trestle table leg that I was
making, mind you. We gathered quite a crowd to listen to this bizarre duet
for guitar, voice and coping saw. It was quite fun, for both of us."

Jason
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: An Introduction
Date: 23 Nov 1992 20:45:58 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov23.172844.2355@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>Dan'l leans over Liralen's post with a blue markup pencil in his hand,
>and adds
>
>and class.
>         ^ and a social Scurve

StM ponders this a bit, then comments, "Y'know, while the Bay Area might have
the most Callahanians in current residence, it's starting to look like maybe
Caltech is the place where more Callahanians have done, er, served, er no, I
mean SPENT time than anywhere else."

Then he asks Dan'l, "At the L.A. realspace I told Deadrunner about `The Song of
the Men of Crud Alley,' with it's refrain of `Away, away with Oxy girls...' but
couldn't remember any of the words.  Would you by any chance happen to remember
them?"  Then he comments, "Yeah, after 19 years at Tech, I've *FINALLY* met an
Oxy girl!  Based on a sample size of 1, they're every bit as charming and
lovely as tradition would have it."
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: edotto@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ed Otto)
Subject: A Rhyme in Time Saves Nine
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:33:14 GMT

Swaggering to the bar, I grab the 5th of Tullimore Dew, pull the cork,
and drink about half of the bottle, and assume the poetry position...


Here I sit, earning my pay,
doing nothing, for $83 a day;
My boss' idea, she seems to know,
that if this keeps up I'll pick up and blow.

She's got something coming, it happens this noon -
I've called in my union, they're bring their goons
there'll be a discussion, a black-tinted row,
and before it's all over, they'll be taking their bows

For taking her down a large notch or two! See
What's been happening is naught but a political stew.
I had a job audit, and won that battle, but
the results have been nothing but hassle.

Rules subverted, edicts ignored,
"Straighten her out, boys - our member's bored!"
the goons will be yelling, with law books drawn
the yelling and screaming will run on 'till dawn!

The blood will run under the conference room door,
from off of the table, and onto the floor
as she finds out today that that position is mine,
along with 2 years back wages, a $40,000 fine!

See, she corrupted someone who knew
that what she was doing was wrong, but too
easy to cover their tracks from
employees who didn't bother to cover their backs.

Another feature that I'm sure you'll all like,
is when she decides to just take a hike,
when she discovers that a tape recorder I've brought
to make all of her lies come to naught.

Notes of these meetings are so easily misplaced,
that the thoughts of all involved end up in space,
to on media magnetic I'll keep
the evidence of what's said by the lying creep.

I sit here, this rhyme is done,
and sharing it with you has been such fun.
I'll write another when the battle is through,
but until then I'll bit you adieu.


Edward C. Otto III			* e-otto@uiuc.edu
Ex-systems Manager			* edotto@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois			* Voice: 217/333-9250
Printing Services Office		* Fax:   217/244-7277
54A. E Gregory  Chanpaign Il  61820     *

%MYBOSS-F-ISABIGDIP, Your boss is a total failure as a supervisor.  Dump and
reload as soon as possible.  You have been warned!

-- 
Edward C. Otto III			* e-otto@uiuc.edu
Ex-systems Manager			* edotto@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois			* Voice: 217/333-9250
Printing Services Office		* Fax:   217/244-7277
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: wyang@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (William D Yang)
Subject: Re: God and Science: The Ramblings of The Nightstalker
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:38:26 GMT

For shame, StM.  You've fallen prey to the fallacy of the excluded middle!

In article <1ej8hiINNh45@gap.caltech.edu> lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:

> >    If killing a person is wrong, it is  wrong, regardless of who does it.
> >Whether the PERSON is evil or not depends on their motivation.
> 
> How about WHY the person does it?  Please answer the following two questions. 
> If your answers aren't "No" and "Yes" respectively, please explain your
> rationale for the answers:
> 
> 	Is it evil to kill somebody who's about to take an action that would
> 	kill dozens of innocent people in order to prevent those murders, if
> 	that's the only way to stop him?

You're talking about the "lesser of two evils."  Take as a given that
MURDER is wrong.  Murder is the premeditated act of ending another
person's life for the framework of this argument.  Our killer (the one
about to kill dozens of innocent people) is planning murder, and our
only solution is to kill him.  Is it wrong?  Yes.  But it would be
MORE wrong to not take the only action available, thus it is the only
allowable solution within the framework of the ethics we're discussing.

> 	Would it have been evil to kill the same person because you didn't like
> 	the way he was dressed, and preventing the mass murder was an
> 	unanticipated consequence?

Having already stated it was wrong in the first case, I see this
question being pointless as there's no relevant difference between the
two.

> Now, tell me how you reconcile that with absolute morality.

I think I just did, StM.  Watch the logic -- not everything is quite
so black and white.
 
	-Bill