HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ian@SOFTSHOE.SEAS.UPENN.EDU (Ian M Glazer)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re 2 Worlds of Climbing
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:42:28 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Newsgroups: Rec.climbing
Subject: RE 2 Worlds of Climbing
Followup-To: 
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Keywords: 

	I think I'll post my views and join everyone else.

	There have become 2 different worlds of climbing. One world is made up of climbers with Alpinist blood within them. These climbers are the traditional ones.  The ones who know what to do with TCU's and Camelots. The second world is made up of climbers with more, shall we say, Yuppie blood in them. They have taken a lot of the danger factor out of climbing.  This is not to say that they are any whimpier than the climbers in the first world.  They have replaced the danger with intensely difficult climbs.
	The basic point is that the two worlds have trouble seeing eye to eye.  The numerous flame wars here have proven that.  Though how we all climb is the same, but the attitudes surrounding climbing is different for each world.
	Moral of the story:  We are just passing through.  The rock will ALWAYS be here.

Until next time...


					Stay tuned,
					Ian

"It was real good."- Peter Croft after being asked about the solo of Astroman.

Newsgroups: Rec.climbing
Subject: RE 2 Worlds of Climbing
Followup-To: 
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Keywords: 

Newsgroups: Rec.climbing
Subject: RE 2 Worlds of Climbing
Followup-To: 
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Keywords: 

	I think I'll post my views and join everyone else.

	There have become 2 different worlds of climbing. One world is made up of climbers with Alpinist blood within them. These climbers are the traditional ones.  The ones who know what to do with TCU's and Camelots. The second world is made up of climbers with more, shall we say, Yuppie blood in them. They have taken a lot of the danger factor out of climbing.  This is not to say that they are any whimpier than the climbers in the first world.  They have replaced the danger with intensely difficult climbs.
	The basic point is that the two worlds have trouble seeing eye to eye.  The numerous flame wars here have proven that.  Though how we all climb is the same, but the attitudes surrounding climbing is different for each world.
	Moral of the story:  We are just passing through.  The rock will ALWAYS be here.

Until next time...


					Stay tuned,
					Ian

"It was real good."- Peter Croft after being asked about the solo of Astroman.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 20:18:20 GMT
Distribution: usa

You guys are reading too much into too many climbing magazines.
This is why I will never subscribe to one (well, I did once for
Mountain Gazette for a while, but that was the read the Ed Abbey, but
Mountain Gazette was special, Ascent is okay, too).

Go climbing, and leave the armchair stuff to netters.
(I'll go next weekend after fixing the truck).
Climbing engenders some ego and identity.
Frankly, I got into the climbing to get away from the jerks and the
competition: just me, my partner (who ever) and the rock [or ice].
But the jerk/jocks followed, sigh!
Do what ever, but leave the medium as you found it.  Novices with
portaledges and bolt kits don't have any idea what they're doing, and
most of you readers are.  Otherwise, we might as well nuke or knock the
cliff/peak down for a subdivision.

Some fantasic personalities in the climbing world, Jeff Lowe is one guy,
but I like his cousin George, more.  George doesn't have to appear
in some rag.  Don't take climbing so seriously.

Just go climbing.  And, may we never meet.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
























Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

In rec.climbing, scott.powell@amail.amdahl.com writes:

> I've got a large wall in the back of my garage and want to install a climbing
> wall.  The dimensions are about 18 to 20 feet high by about 25 feet
> wide.  I am planning on installing an artificial climbing wall there and was
> wondering if anyone has done anything similar?
> 
> I have seen 3 different methods.  The first is a resin and crushed rock method
> like the wall at North Carolina State.  The second is the wall at the REI here
> in Cupertino which appears to be made of panels with hexagonal holds placed
> into them.  Finally there's 4x8 sheets of plywood with artificial holds bolted
> on them.
> 

Use method 3.  Save your money and time for more/better modular holds and
creating interesting features.  It's nice to have a vertical section for
warmup and footwork, but you will get the most use out of overhanging stuff.
Build some really overhanging stuff right off the ground so you can create
hard problems and fall safely.

Mort
From: brodesky@td2cad.intel.com (Michael Brodesky)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Tao's for $75
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:11:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: intel corporation



This is not meant to be  a ad for REI. Just thought people would like
to know they have Tao's for $75.

MichaeL
--
Michael Brodesky Internet Mbrodesky@sc9.Intel.com
UUCP : {pur-ee,qanad,oliveb,decwrl,hplabs}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!brodesky
During the week I climb left to right. On weekends I climb up and down.
Rootbeer^2 = Beer ? 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: Apgar@Apple.com (Gar)
Subject: Climbing Near Napa?
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 05:32:31 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: rec.climbing

Anyone know of any decent climbing near Napa (CA)? I know about
Mickey's Beach and Mt. Diablo... Anything closer?

Apgar@Apple.com   |   Eric Apgar  alias  Gar   |   I said it, NOT Apple.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Mo
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 20:02:11 GMT
Distribution: ca

In article <BvpKA5.1zx@cup.hp.com> morrison@cup.hp.com
(Bobbie_Morrison) writes:
>As Eugene might have been trying to say in his weird way:
						^^^^^
Actually, it's very deliberate.  It's deterrence.  Worked for decades.
Designed (doesn't always work) to prevent the uncertain novice from killing
themselves due to groupies (like yourself) and faddists seeking attention
and trying to promote a populist/commercial agenda.
Trying to preserve what some call "adventure" (I call essence) of the sport
or activity. ("Adventure" is a term more for unprepared novices.)

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: climbing helmets
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:33:16 GMT

In article <5399@gold.gvg.tek.com>,
jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche) writes:
>The Joe Brown is, I guess, a rigid shell with an EPS liner, like a
>hard shell bicycling helmet.  The other choice I've seen, (Petzl) is
>like a modified construction workers hardhat: rigid plastic shell with
>a strap suspension setup to hold the helmet away from the head.  This
>latter style seems best for comfort, coolness, and protection from the
>occasional dropped biner.  It seems like for protecting your head in a
>big pendulum fall, however, anything less than the Joe Brown type
>probably won't do much in the way of shock absorption.
>
>Any comments?
A few years ago Mountain compared helmets.  They concluded that the
heavier helmets, e.g. Joe Brown,  afforded the most protection but
also was the heaviest.  I can attest to the heavy part -- mine can
be a real pain in that respect.  For mountaineering purposed the JB
is also fairly warm while some of the lighter ones have holes to let
the air in.  The light weight helmets were considered better for
light rock fall but didn't help much if things got real serious.  I
think MSR made/makes one that is a compromise lighter than the JB
but more protection than the real lightweights.  In short any
selection will be a compromise.
From: eric@milton.u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:35:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.eric.719012152
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington

rwaters@spdg.com (Rolland Waters) writes:

>of Whitehorse Ledge in New Hampshire (which is a long way from Snow Creek
>Wall in Leavenworth, WA, where a certain new route awaits people looking
>for a direct way up to Outer Limits ;-). 

Outer Space, you knucklehead!  By the way, I heard that the guy who unearthed
that route was a manly REAL CLIMBER, with a BIG STIFF wire brush.  I don't
know about the guy who put in the belay anchor, old Rolland "Chicks dig it
when I wear lycra" Waters, though.

You have to give ol' Fred Beckey a lot of credit for putting up that nice
little direct finish to the new climb way back when.  Now that's what I call
foresight!

>Rolland

Eric Hirst
eric@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: rawl@lhotse.ucar.edu ()
Subject: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Reply-To: rawl@lhotse.ucar.edu ()
Organization: National Center for Artifical Reality (NCAR) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:45:28 GMT

Otay kids.  Here is my $0.32 worth.

Let's face it.  Most of the population of climbing homosapiens belong to the 
"climbing public", as that geek Alison Osius at CLIMBING calls them.  These are
the people who climb in the gym and the safe, warm sport climbs (play climbing).
  Then there are the "climbers" of the world.  People like Charlie Fowler, 
John Bachar, Jeff Lowe, Peter Croft, etc.  People who do phenomenal things and
don't run off to get it "published".  That is, they love climbing for the beauty,
joy, fear, pleasure and suffering that it brings. 
  A "climber" is someone who is adept at all forms of climbing: from thin finger 
cracks to offwidth cracks; thin slabs to overhanging, loose faces; skilled in aid
climbing and ice climbing.  Based on this I think one can see just what the difference 
between the "climbing public" and "climbers" really is.  
  And another point: let's get CLIMBING to rename their magazine to "YUPPIE CLIMBER -
TRAVEL AND FASHION" magazine.  Maybe something similar for ROCK&ICE magazine. 
The climbing masses are destroying the "sport" for commercial gain and the entire
spirit of climbing is being smothered by the "beautiful people" as yet another chic
thing to do.  "Ooo...  I can't put pro every 5 feet and I might scratch my bracelet.
Besides, the crack is bigger than my beautiful little hands."  
  Let's face it, crack climbing is for CLIMBERS not for PEOPLE WHO CLIMB.  So all of 
you upper-class ego-driven people who climb stay away from places fragil and beautiful.  
It is too precious for you to tread upon with your latest fashional "hiking boot", 
mountain bike and suave fashional yet functional clothing!

  OK - so my head hurts, my feet stink and I don't love Jesus.  Just had to dump
this into cyberspace.

Let me put the asbestos screen cover on and you can flame me til you run out of
cpu cycles!


--Rawl Stenson 
Radical Fashion Terrorist and CLIMBER Goddamnit!
From: gauthier@ug.cs.dal.ca (Paul Gauthier)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Got a new rope -- need care advice
Date: 9 Oct 92 13:38:44 GMT
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada

Hi folks... I've been climbing since spring and just took the plunge
and bought a rope yesterday. Now that I have it, I'd really like to know
what the best way to take care of it is. I'm going to be doing a bit
more top-roping (slingshot) before the weather turns bad and then I'll
be doing all my climbing on an indoor wall which just opened up here.

The rope is a non-dry rope (Mammut Spider).

My main concern is: what kinds of falls are considered 'harmful' to the
rope? I know that with top-roping and a good belayer there is very little
stress placed on the rope. Yesterday I was doing some major dyno (for me)
moves and taking some 6-8 foot falls while top-roped on the climbing wall.
Is this even close to what would be considered a hard fall? I notice my
rope is rated for 8-9 UIAA falls. What is the definition of a UIAA fall?

Any and all other tidbits and gems for a semi-newbie climber and new rope
owner are welcome!

Thanks,
PG
-- 
===========================================================================
                             Paul Gauthier
cyclist, rock climber, skydiver, computer scientist (...in order of danger)
Electronic: gauthier@ug.cs.dal.ca  Voice: (902)423-0089  Fax: (902)420-1675
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: climbing helmets
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 16:09:21 GMT

In article <19ocmgINNq72@cascade.cs.ubc.ca> msample@cs.ubc.ca (Mike Sample) writes:
>In article <1992Sep22.165126.12470@netfs.dnd.ca> BERRYMAN@orca.drep.dnd.ca (DON BERRYMAN) writes:
>>Does any one know of the effectiveness of a helmet in preventing 
>>injury in a leader fall? Obviously there must be some advantage but you usually
>>don't fall on your head and if you fall any distance onto it you going to break
>>your neck any way (morbid but true). 
>>
>
>Good question - when I bought my helmet I looked for one with a reasonable
>lateral stability. (Didn't feel like buying a Joe Brown tho - too heavy!)
>I was glad to have it on a big pendulum fall I took.

  The 1 experience I had where I wish I had been wearing a helmet while leading
was on a route that traverses over a cave on thin holds. When I fell, I went 
over the lip of the overhang and swung into the cave, bashing my brain into 
the rock and getting cut in the process. Not fatal, but the end of that day.

************************************************************************
"Would you believe it if you     |             MY KARMA
saw it with your own eyes?"      |           JUST RAN OVER
   Asked the woman               |            YOUR DOGMA
"That depends"                   |               -Dolly Llama-
    Replied I                    |	
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully,Pathology,62699)
Subject: Re: Lubricating Cams
Reply-To: cptully@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:14:19 GMT

In article 29802@vexcel.com, dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>In article <ld6u10INNj0v@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct6.161530.23917@hellgate.utah.edu> allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson) writes:
>>>gustave@ada.seas.ucla.edu (Gustave R. Stroes) writes:
>>>>I was wondering if anyone out there has any advice on what
>>>>to use to lubricate the various moving parts on climbing
>>>>equipment (carabiners, cams etc.).
>>>
>I was told to use isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol.  Not only does it
>evaporate, so that it doesn't atract dirt, but it helps away colected
>sand and dirt, which dry lubricators probably won't.
>
>-- 
>
>		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)


only one problem with isopropyl: it washes away any oils too, leaving
nothing, except metal on metal.  Metal on metal doesn't slide very
well, so that is the whole reason for using lubricants.  Isopropyl
would be a good way to clean, but then you MUST apply some other
lubricant that will not evaporate.
---
*********************************************************************
Chris(topher) P. Tully				<cptully@med.unc.edu>
Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill		1122 Vic Charles Dr.
Department of Pathology				Raleigh, NC 27606
CB# 7525			work: (919) 966-2699
Chapel Hill, NC 27599		hone: (919) 851-8816
*********************************************************************
I get paid for my opinions, but that doesn't mean that UNC or anybody
                     else agrees with them.

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 17:17:53 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.195507.3172@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> hugh@nezsdc.icl.co.nz
(Hugh Grierson) writes:
>>>Reads more like the Who's Who list of "Park Bums with Attitude Problems".

>What's with the "Distribution: usa" stuff guys?  Do you think the
>rest of us haven't heard of these climbers too (we have), or that we don't
>get the same mags (we do), or that we don't enjoy the annual sport climber
>vs Real Alpinist tm flame war and magazine bashing (depends).
>
>[Curiously, E.N.M's followups arrived here despite the distribution, but
>not the originals.  Such is the way of the net.]

The Dist: came from the original poster's note, why he (pre-Cary) selected it
I have no idea, but I honored not changing it.  It's a legit Distribution
unlike many (i.e. Dist: rec).  It falls thru because some hosts either ignore
the Dist field (long story) or people get news.feeds from companies having
a single gateway feeding from a different geographic area (like H-P).

>So, fill me in; what's this all about?

It's another "real" climbers discussion centered on climbers in the media
(print).  The issue is appears to be between "Yuppie"/sport/whatever vs.
more "trad"/alpine/whatever, to which I say, I doubt that it's as simple as
that.  I'll repost the article for you (outside the usa) removing the
Dist field (defaulting to world) if our system hasn't expired it.  Just
email an ACK.  Let me know.  (Hey a timing test!)

I thought the initial post was a bit weak, but I especially like his use of
"social commentary" (the author gets a thumbs up for that).  While I don't
see Jeff Lowe as a Park Bum with an Attitude problem, I think I saw some
of the gist he was getting into (generations of climbers have gotten into
far more serious problems from Warren Harding (amusing reading about him in
the new Bio on Royal Robbins) to Dale Bard to other friends who not only were
thrown into jail but also got Section 8s from the military).

The only way to end this post is that oft quoted passage from Roper from
Joe Kelsey:
	On either side of the social spectrum, there lies a leisure class.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: george@windslc.seri.gov (George Scott)
Subject: Re: 2 Worlds of Climbing
Reply-To: george@windslc.nrel.gov
Organization: Colorado State Reformatory for Young Hussies and Trollops
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:13:51 GMT

ian@SOFTSHOE.SEAS.UPENN.EDU (Ian M Glazer) writes (without linefeeds):

>There have become 2 different worlds of climbing. One world is made up
>of climbers with Alpinist blood within them. These climbers are the 
>traditional ones.  The ones who know what to do with TCU's and Camelots. 

Gad, I must be getting old. 'Traditionalists' are the climbers who know what
to do with a TCU? I thought traditionalists were the ones who knew which end
of a piton hammer to use, and how to pronounce 'Dulfersitz'.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George N. Scott                         EMAIL: george@nrel.gov
Wind Research Program (formerly SERI)   VOICE: 303-231-7667
National Renewable Energy Laboratory    1617 Cole Blvd., Golden, CO  80401-3393
From: j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:09:18 GMT
Subject: Re: purity, beautiful people, etc.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.climbing

In rec.climbing, ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:

> But I've encountered more than a few ugly traditionalists too.

Yes, I think we all did the day one of them started this silly topic.

Mort
From: bruceb@roadrunner.denver.sgi.com (Bruce Bailey)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:42:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.


Or how about this:

"Everyone out there is basically a wanker except me!" (Dr. OW)

Bruce Bailey (Dr. OW)
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: A social commentary about "climbers" vs. "People who climb (or play like it)"
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:47:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <1992Oct9.160346.14969@csc.ti.com> czichon@psyche.csc.ti.com (Cary Czichon) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.144528.10271@ncar.ucar.edu>
>rawl@lhotse.ucar.edu () writes:
>
>>Then there are the "climbers" of the world.  People like Charlie Fowler, 
>>John Bachar, Jeff Lowe, Peter Croft, etc.  People who do phenomenal things and
>>don't run off to get it "published".  That is, they love climbing for the
>>beauty, joy, fear, pleasure and suffering that it brings. 
>
>Reads more like the Who's Who list of "Park Bums with Attitude Problems".
>Note Bachar's altercation at the Snowbird.  A list of truley phenomenal sport
>climbers would contain names like Lynn Hill and Jim Karn.  Of course, the
>best climbers in the world are all alpinists.

Gosh, don't contradict yourself too much.  Both Charlie Fowler and
Jeff Lowe have distinguished themselves in the alpine game on the
great faces of Europe, Patagonia and the Himalayas.

As far as undocumented great ascents, Charlie Fowler's ON-SIGHT ascent
of the difficult and devious Direct North Butress of Middle Cathedral
Rock(AKA "the DNB") in Yosemite in 1977 is very high on my list of
"Mr. Burly Dude goes climbing" spectacular achievments.

Please don't lump Charlie, Jeff and Peter Croft as "Park Bums with
Attitude Problems".  I sure wish I had their attitudes towards
climbing!!!!!

Bruce
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: sshostek@pdx.mentorg.com (Steve Shostek)
Subject: rock shoes for sale
Originator: sshostek@sshostek
Organization: engr
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:22:15 GMT

Fire Ballets are an excellent all-around shoe. Size 8 1/2 is just 
too tight for my feet, and I'm tired of my toenails turning black
and falling off after a weekend of climbing. I like the shoe so
much that I replaced them with a pair of 9's. Whudda relief.
So I'm selling my used shoes.

For Sale:
   Fire Ballets
   Size 8 1/2
   Good condition - fresh resole job
   $60 OBO

These shoes were used over a period of one year, for  weekends
at the local crags and a few alpine rock routes. They are in good 
shape and I had them resoled to get them ready for sale. I'll pay
the shipping. Last time I checked, REI wanted $140 for these shoes.

Reply by phone or email.


-- 
* steve_shostek@mentorg.com         | Harmony with land is like harmony with  *
* sshostek@mentorg.com              | a friend. You cannot cherish his right  *
* {uunet, attunix}!mntgfx!sshostek  | hand and chop off his left.             *
* (503)685-7000 x3625               |          --Aldo Leopold                 *
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.misc