HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beede@sctc.com (Mike Beede)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Moat around God's Eye
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:54:06 GMT
Organization: SCTC

tmyoung@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Thomas M. Young) writes:

>In any case, the thing that I found more far-fetched was the culture that
>the Moties developed.  They could have ended their cycles by just adopting 
>the same strategy as a lot of early human cultures: kill the unwanted 
>children.  The first Motie society to do that would swiftly control the 
>planet, as they would be able to devote less energy to supporting their huge 
>population.  

Urk.  That sounds supremely reasonable.  However, what happens when
the more-efficient less-numerous Tribe O' Moties meets their
unfriendly neighbors?  Don't they get stomped and the logical social
organization get lost?   I'd really like to buy this one, since it
has parallels in human history.

	Mike


-- 
Mike Beede         Secure Computing
beede@sctc.com     1210 W. County Rd E, Suite 100           
------------------ Arden Hills, MN  55112
                       (612) 482-7420
From: aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock's Swords Trilogy
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:31:45 GMT
Reply-To: aaron@space.ualberta.ca
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
: Hello Netters,
: 
:   Some Questions:
:   ---------------
: 
:   1. How is Vadhagh and Nadhragh supposed to be pronounced? and how
:      does Kwll (the ultimate Deus Ex Machina IMHO :-)?
:      I think Moorcock throws in to many h's and w's into his names
:      it does the effect of seeming more "fantastic" but it's a little
:      disturbing when you don't know how to pronounce them :-)

Well, a lot of people have that problem with foreign languages.  In Welsh,
'w' is used as a vowel, pronounced something like 'oo'.  I seem to recall that
Welsh 'u' is pronounced 'ee', but this may just be from the few words I know.

As somebody mentioned, dh is probable the "soft" th, like in "there"...this
isn't Welsh, since the Welsh spell that "dd".  And gh was rather common in
Old English...witness all the words ending in gh in Modern English.  It was
probably pronounced like the Germanic "ch" or "kh".

But he's not making them up.  He's borrowing them from Germanic and Celtic
languages, and possible even specific myths.  If you want more fantastic
made-up names, try M.A. Foster or Jack Vance.

--
---Alfvaen(a.k.a. Aaron V. Humphrey, Page of Newts)
Canadian Network For Space Research, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
"And now only one things remains--the brute will to survive."
Current Album--The Waterboys:A Pagan Place
Current Read--Eileen Kernaghan:Journey To Aprilioth
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: darknite@camelot.bradley.edu (John S. Novak III)
Subject: Re: Motie threads --- a note of appreciation
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:19:20 GMT

Eric S. Raymond writes:

>I'd like to take a moment and congratulate everyone involved on the high
>quality of the postings dealing with the Motie problem.

>These threads have been going on for weeks.  They've supported intelligent
>discussions of ethics, population biology, speculative physics, and several
>other subjects bearing on the Niven/Pournelle universe.  There have been
>some spirited arguments but I have yet to see a flame.

>Over the last couple of days, I've been reading these postings and thinking,
>"by Ghod, this is what the net *ought* to be like" but too often is not.
>This note is intended as positive reinforcement.  Thank you, all.

Someone ought to go tell Niven and Pournelle.
It occurs to me that, in an environment such as this, this is one
of the highest compliments that can be paid to a pair of authors.

"Hey, by the way, I think you two should know that you got
several dozen highly argumentative people engaged in a great big
huge _peaceful_ discussion about everything from ethics to
physics.  Just thought you might to know."

--
"Look at Every Lit-tle Symbol."
          -Shrijay Dalal, 11-03-91
John S. Novak, III		darknite@camelot.bradley.edu
From: valhert@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (valhert)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.book,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: **WANTED: Fantasy Book Club Info**
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:25:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept.

Hi Everyone,

I am interested in Fantasy Hardback books.  So I would like
to join a club that offer it.  I am especially interested in
buying books by Raymond Feist.

Thanks,
Valery
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: Re: Dick bio
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:28:43 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.023308.25503@cs.uow.edu.au> u9161910@cs.uow.edu.au (Gareth William Omeara) writes:
>Can anybody recommend a good biography of Philip K. Dick.I read in the
>afterword to my copy of Clans of the Alphane Moon that he believed
>in later years there was a cosmic force centred on his apartment
>guiding his career and I would like to know more about the life of
>this obviously totally fucked up guy who wrote such great novels.
>
>


_Divine Invasions_.  Sorry, I can't remember the author's name.
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Second Genesis (spoilers)
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:19:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

I have a problem with Moffitt's premises in "Second Genesis".  Not so
much the killing fields of whatever (magnetism? radiation?) at regular
intervals -- that's a legitimate premise.  The 26-million-year cycle
of evolution, however, is too pat.  All it would take would be for one
of the species to evolve 5% faster, and instead of having a few centuries
before being struck by celestial doom, it would have over a million
years -- plenty of time to discover the problem and solve it.  The
pattern which is needed to make the story works requires each intelligent
species to have achieved space flight just a few centuries or millenia
before the next 26-million-year zap, and that's too finicky a timing,
given that there is no process enforcing it.

It also seems improbable that this trap *would* have rendered a space
faring civilization such as humanity extinct.  There would, after all,
have been thousands of years' warning from the time the arm first reached
the edge of human space till it reached the other end.  Recall that it
is moving far more slowly than light.  If nothing else, humanity could
have given itself a few million more years by evacuating as many people
as it could about 20 degrees spinward.  Or to the Magellanic Clouds.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part,
    to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Restricted breeding (was Re: The Moat around God's Eye)
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:01:51 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <726@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.181215.24700@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>|Stanley, you seem to be unable to distinguish between the following
>|two goals.

>|1.  Don't have kids when we're crowded so that my species doesn't have
>|a boom and bust. 

>|2.  Don't have kids when we're crowded because I can more relibably
>|propagate my genes if I wait until we have more room.

>|Do you understnad the difference between these goals?

>Yes, but I maintain that in the long run they amount to the same thing.
>To achieve 2 effectively requires or entails achieving 1.

Not at all.  The degree of crowding necessary to make having children
a bad idea may be greater than the degree of crowding necessary to
have a bust.  The smaller the investment per child the more likely
this is to be true.

>If there is a crash, then *everyones* offspring are at risk, and no
>lineage is exempt for elimination, so a population that is prone to
>periodic major crashes is bad for *each* *individual*.

You miss two major points.  Your mechanism - reason 1 - has not
sanction for cheaters.  Mine, reason 2, does.

Your mechanism can't work because once reason 2 comes into play busts
can't happen any more.  If an event never happens how can it put
evolutionary pressure on a species?

>[r-strategists get around this by dispursing a significant portion of thier
>offspring out of the immediate area, and hopefully out of the range of
>the inevitable population crash, that is what makes them "weeds"].

True for some, but not others.  Look, for example, at a predator-prey
system.  Because it is so tough to predict future populations
predators oftne can't tell when breeding is a bad idea and starvation
and population busts are common.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: elwin@hubcap.clemson.edu (lawrence brown)
Subject: Re: Just read _Hyperion_/_Fall of...
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:21:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.131519.8224@athena.mit.edu> rcharbon@athena.mit.edu (Ray Charbonneau) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.102601.1@skcla.monsanto.com>, jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>|> In article <694@tdat.teradata.COM>, swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>|> Regarding Hyperion/Fall of...
>|> 
>|> > How one writer could manage all of those different styles so well ...
>|> 
>|> That's nothing.  Simmons seems to take on writing styles and genres like I do
>|> shoes.  Summer of Night is VERY Stephen King.  Carrion Comfort is much like a
>|> Dean Koontz horror/thriller.
>|> 
>
>If I were Dan Simmons, I'd be very insulted by the preceding comment.
>
And you'd deserve it.  


Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Larry


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: "Understand" by Ted Chiang
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:22:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.101158.20390@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>Now, why did I keep thinking of small mice running maces and
>flowers floating on the water while reading this story?

Yeah, I got that at first, too, however he took to the story in quite a
different direction after those initial similarities.   Their endings
are vastly different.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: Re: "Buffalo" is SF?  /Hugo nominated/ SF?!
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:22:17 GMT

"Buffalo" is more a story about SF than it is an SFnal story.  And so
it can be labelled SF, in contrast to the way an adventure story with
SF trappings can be labelled SF.  The adventure story has surface SF;
"Buffalo" has deep SF.

(I'm using "surface" and "deep" in a value-neutral sense.)
--
From: rod@cats.ucsc.edu (Rodrick Su)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Jack Vance: Madouc
Date: 26 Jul 1992 04:45:53 GMT
Organization: Tigana Restoration Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <!_kmyxg.dani@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Let me be the far-from-first to note that "Madouc" is an excellent
>work of fantasy.  In style, it is very similar to much of Vance's
>better science fiction:  Almost all of the characters are urbane
>and well-spoken, many implausibly so, but the pleasure which good
>dialogue brings far outweighs the loss in characterization.  (The
>characters are distinguished by what they have to say, rather than
>by how they say it.)  
>
>The book stands alone, so not having read the other Lyonesse
>books is not a problem.  


	My impression of the Lyonesse Trilogy is this:

	it is quite possibly the most erratic writing that I have ever
	encounter in reading fantasy.  Switching between Medival
	Romance, and fare-out-there fairy tale are done quite without warning.
	This is not to say that I didn't not enjoy the books, I just know that
	there are readers outthere who cannot stand this kind of switching.
-- 
[ Rodrick Su           ]-----------------------------------------------------] 
[----------------------[ A bomb lives only as it is falling.		     ] 
[ rod@cats.ucsc.edu    ]------------------------[ ``Use of Weapons''         ] 
[ rod@ucscb.ucsc.edu   ]------------------------[   Iain M. Banks            ]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: Restricted breeding (was Re: The Moat around God's Eye)
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:12:15 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <689@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>In article <IeNlpMe00VsGM7525q@andrew.cmu.edu> ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>|Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 17-Jul-92 Re: Restricted
>|breeding (wa.. Michael Friedman@uucp (2340)
>|> Alternative Hypothesis:  Rabbits that avoid breeding during bad times
>|> are more likely to survive a year or two until they can bree
>|> successfuly than rabbits that breed indiscrimminately.  Therefore,
>|> rabbits have evolved a mechanism to avoid breeding when conditions are
>|> bad.

>|Feh, semantic arguments. 

>|It is common (and easily-understood) shorthand to say "animal X does Y
>|in order to avoid Z" when what is really meant is "behavior Y has
>|evolved in X because it tends to prevent maladaptive result Z."

>Couldn't agree more.  Maybe Michael should read some of Ernst Mayr's
>essays on teleonomic systems.  Use of 'end-oriented' language does
>*not* necessarily imply *intent*, just purpose.  (Try "Towards a New
>Philosophy of Biology", at least I think that's the title).

However you seem to be unable to distinguish between two different goals.

>|The statement you originally challenged was:

>|>>This is, in gross aproximation, why most life forms on Earth do not go
>|>>in for unlimited fecundity.  It may make for a good *short* term strategy,
>|>>but the more conservative strategy tends to win in the long run, simply by
>|>>avoiding the crashes.

>|> [....] please name a single species that restrains its population
>|> growth for this reason.

>|and the rabbits and mice were given as examples. I think they're still
>|good examples, although it's true that when there's plenty of free food
>|and empty space they go over to "as many babies as you can turn out."

>Or, to put it in Ernst Mayr's terms, teleological language does not
>require *intentionality*, only goal-directed behavior.

>As Mr. Plotkin said, I stand by my original presentation, it is correct
>as it stands.

Stanley, you seem to be unable to distinguish between the following
two goals.

1.  Don't have kids when we're crowded so that my species doesn't have
a boom and bust. 

2.  Don't have kids when we're crowded because I can more relibably
propagate my genes if I wait until we have more room.

Do you understnad the difference between these goals?

I contend that goal 2 is common and that goal 1 is nonexistent except
possible among humans.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: charless@sco.COM (charles stross)
Subject: Re: space opera:  definition
Organization: The Somewhat Contagious Operation, Inc.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 11:07:41 GMT


In article <1992Jul22.163554.21575@u.washington.edu> kellmer@u.washington.edu writes:
>I know this may sound like a silly question, but here goes:
>
>I've seen references to the term "SPACE OPERA"  as opposed to such things
>as hard sf, and even other types of sf.  What exactly defines something as
>"Space Opera?"  Obviously there isn't a hard and fast rule, but I'd like
>to see what other people consider space opera.  Examples would help as
>well.  Thanks a lot.

Things that Go Fast and Explode. The bigger the better. A Galactic
Empire or Federation is a dead give-away, but it's not a necessary
pre-condition. Big space battleships and a galactic conflict is also
a pretty good sign. Anything that involves protagonists (preferably
of diametrically opposed political alignment) hauling ass all over
the galaxy and shooting at one another is also probably part of the
package.

The most prototypical space operas involve protagonists, representing
rival galactic empires in conflict, hauling ass all over the galaxy in
big space battleships, and shooting at one another a lot.

There are exceptions. Take Back Plenty by Colin Greenland is restricted
(for the most part) to the solar system, but makes it. Schismatrix
by Bruce Sterling is well worth a look, although it doesn't fit the
traditional mould (it's a claustrophobic, very high-tech future in
which economic conflict between rapidly evolving factions generates
a near-permanent state of crisis throughout the solar system). Never-
theless, both these books have been described as space opera.

-- 
Charlie Stross aka charless@scol.sco.com ..... UNIX oriented text mangler
WARNING: The opinions voiced in the preceding electronic document are the
product of a warped mind. Take two before meals.
From: Joel.Rosenberg@f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Gibson's _agrippa_: Not A Hoax
Date: 18 Jul 92 04:17:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: tdkt.711701461.F00004

In a message to All <13 Jul 92 15:21> Clemens Misch writes in and says:

 >> >For everyone who claimed it was an April Fools joke, I have
 >> >some interesting news.  The June issue of _Science Fiction
 >> >Eye_ contains a full-page ad for _AGRIPPA A Book of the Dead_,
 >> >by William Gibson and Dennis Ashbaugh.
 >> >
 >> >The description is just like was mentioned earlier: text on
 >> >a computer disk which erases itself as it scrolls by the screen,
 >> >artwork which vanishes on exposure to air/light, only to
 >> >be replaced by a second set of artwork.
 >>
 >> Somebody's going to hack it.  You _know_ somebody's going to hack it.

 CM> This could be the cause for the "book" in first place. He is after all
 CM> the 'inventor' of cyberpunk (or ma I wrong? ).


You're wrong; the term was invented by Bruce Bethke for the story of the 
same name, which appeared in print before anybody applied it to Gibson and 
his coterie -- a fact which irritates the cyberminorpunkies to no end.

 * Origin: The Terraboard, Minneapolis MN (1:282/341.0)
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administr., Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:15:15 -0400 
From: Bill Thomas <bt16+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Book Club

>Just to save a little volume around here, eveyone who's been asking/answering
>about the SF Book Club should read  rec.arts.sf.misc message #2386 which
>explains why the discussion is a waste of our time.

Does anyone else really hate this kind of obnoxious message? As someone
who's not lifeless enough to camp out on the net, reading every message
for the past few years, I'd like to thank the people who have posted
items concerning the Science Fiction Book Club. I've often wondered if
it was any good, and now I have a clear idea of its good/bad points.

Also, I don't know how you search for messages but I use MacMail on a
Macintosh. Having "message #2386" as a reference is pretty useless. Why
don't you not waste our time and post a copy of the message?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cracicot@us.oracle.com
Subject: Gerrold
Organization: Oracle Corporation, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:09:32 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

Does anybody know when/if the final book of the
Rage For Revenge / Matter for Men / Day for Damnation
series will be published.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: t88_lars_e@maja.teknikum.uu.se (Lars-Erik Hillberg)
Subject: Re: Brain size (was Re: the "cause" of homosexuality)
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:35:28 GMT


>Fully recognizing the irony in the original post, it should be noted that
>while Carter was not a very good President, he was by no means a moron.  The
>Navy is not in the habit of handing nuclear submarines over to morons.
>
>David Hungerford  AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET  Opinions?  Mine, all mine!!!
>

Isn't that a little bit like saying that the toilet doesn't take shit from
anyone? :-)
From: wolter@cs.tamu.edu (Jan Wolter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: List of voters in ESF award so far
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:49:01 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University

In article <1992Jul30.233705.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Jor-Elmo) writes:
>	It occurs to me that the astronaut might have been able to save
>herself about half the walk by jogging to one of the poles.  Don't recall
>the moon's axial tilt, so perhaps no "Midnight Sun" effect, but at the very
>least a circumnav is a lot shorter at high latitudes.

This seems to occur to almost everyone, and it is a fault in the story that
the author didn't at least address the idea enough to put it to rest.
Since the terminator (word has a good double meaning here) was close to
her at the start, she had little choice but to run straight away from it.
Going straight to the pole would obviously be impossible.

However, she should have been taking the biggest angle she could get off
of the equator.  She can tell by the height of the sun how much of a lead
she has.  Any time she is reasonably far ahead, she should angle a bit
toward the pole, trying to shorten the great circle.

However, even this is risky.  As she completes the circle, she will have to
angle back to the crash site, which means that at the end of the trip,
when she is most exhausted, she has to be moving faster to stay ahead of
the terminator.  It's not clear where the best trade-off between shortening
the trip and moving faster is.  I'd want to do some analysis of this, and
I wouldn't want to do it while running for my life.

				- jan
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Dealing with Jump shock (Re: The Moat around God's Eye)
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:18:58 GMT

In article <104770002@otter.hpl.hp.com>, tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner) writes:
|> 
|> i.e. would you force the photons to go through a forest of "wires" to
|> reach the photoreceptors, or would you bring the wires out the back of
|> the eye. 
|> 
|> Right. Obvious isn't it. At least to any competent engineer. But God got it
|> wrong in the human eye. This is a superb way of demonstrating either the
|> non-existence of God or that God is fundamentally incompetant. Take your
|> choice.
 
 How about that God doesn't think like an engineer?
 
   -Jim, who's not fond of religion but even less fond of bad logic.