HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex  or ?
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:54:52 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <1993Jan4.211040.29608@afit.af.mil> lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins) writes:
#In article <1993Jan2.192534.27149@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
##I made one mistake in buying my Ruger "Old Army" cap & ball revolver:
##I got blue steel rather  than stainless. Now every time I take it out
##it has to be cleaned scrupulously or severe rusting will be my reward.
#
#Sorry, but this is a fact of life when shooting blackpowder (or Pyrodex),
#whether the gun is blued or stainless.
#
##I've been shooting only Pyrodex and RWS caps and, if rust is the price
##of using Pyrodex, I'm about ready to do without. Now the manual that
##came with the gun says "Black powder only" and Ruger amended this by
##letter to include Pyrodex. I'm half-way tempted to use a few grains
##of Unique, warning or not. I'm not sure what to do.
#
#Don't even think of using smokeless powder such as Unique in a blackpowder
#gun... it's just plain dangerous.
#
#Both blackpowder and Pyrodex are corrosive, the latter a little bit
#moreso.  The RWS caps are non-corrosive and are used because you don't
#want ANY corrosion in the tiny flash hole (they're also good for making
#sure the breech is dry after cleaning).  I like RWS caps.

I think that we can accept, without proof, that RWS 1075 Sinoxid caps
do not cause rusting. This leaves with only the Pyrodex to blame.

The problem with this is that I don't understand why Pyrodex has to
cause/promote all this rusting. Pyrodex is a smokeless bulk (volumetric)
powder with some additive that causes it to smoke. Now there is nothing
new about bulk powders. In _Hatcher's_Notebook_, Gen. Hatcher discusses
powders that are loaded volume for volume the same as black powder. One
such powder was Schultze powder (p.317). In _Cartridges_of_the_World_
(Ed. 4), Barnes discusses bulk powders and mentions that DuPont made
bulk shotgun powder into the 1960s (p. 326-327). Now, I presume that
these powders did not cause or promote rusting in the way that Pyrodex
seems to. It must be possible to make a black powder substitute that
does not create rust. What is needed is for someone to market an
old fashioned volumetric equivalent of black powder without the rust.

Perhaps its time for a letter to Hodgdon.
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb                * Life only admits two states: 
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * growing and dying. So what,
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * if I've put on a little weight?
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: One more Cz52 question
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:19:10 GMT


Eric Hresko writes:
#        Also, as an aside:
#        Cz stands for (spelling) Czeska Zjobjika which is a SPECIFIC factory
#        Vz stands for vizor, which means model.
#
#So, for the military rifles and pistols, the correct nomenclature is Vz52, not
#Cz52.  The Cz stuff is for later commercial ventures by the factory.

"CZ" stands for Ceska Zbrojovka, which is a specific COMPANY. It was established
after the Great War, and had several factories. These were used by the Germans
during WW2, and were apparently state-owned for a while after WW2 before
the commercial operations were reestablished.

"Vz" stands for vzor, which means model, as Eric said, or type.

The Czechs used German-style 3-letter factory codes for some 15 years after
WW2, including on the Vz52. The "voz" or "vop" (or "vo-whatever") is a
arsenal rework marking, not to be confused with the factory code.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: mailrus!gatech!unmvax!bbx!yenta!ben@uunet.UU.NET (Ben Klausner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Extend HK-91/93 Buttstock?
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:39 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department

aeporro@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Bob Porro) writes:


#I believe that HK does make this very accessory -- a buttstock extension device
#for the 91 and 93.  I'm sure that a local HK dealer in your area can give you 
#more details.

The only thing we have been able to find from HK, is the extended sniper
stock. This item is big $$$, even for HK.

-- 
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  inet: ben@yenta.alb.nm.us     |  N5DJL       | My opinions are my own.
  CI$:  76337,1730              |              | Who else would want them?
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AK stock
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:19 GMT

TTC103@PSUVM.PSU.EDU writes:
 >I just acquired a MAK-90 which is basically an semi-auto only AKS with the
 >funky thumb hole stock.  Can anyone tell me where to get a stock with the
 >original pistol grip?  Thanks.

If a post-ban sporter rifle is converted to a pre-ban configuration, would
the BATF or some other agency be interested if it:

1) is done by a dealer

2) and individual, but not for resale

David Post  davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: weba@robocop.cs.hut.fi (Veijo Paavali L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .40S&W IPSC major loads
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:15:39 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab



Does anybody have IPSC major loads for .40S&W using
Hodgdon powders? I'd appreciate if the PF would be
about 180-185 from 5" barrel.

I would be most interested in loads for 170gr bullet.

DVC//Veijo

---
Veijo Lansikunnas               If you are going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
weba@niksula.cs.hut.fi                                       - Il Brutto
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hi-Power mag safety
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:22 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Dec28.194001.17240@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
#In article <9212240001.AA09254@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca
#(Keith de Solla) writes:
##I have a new Hi-Power that I intend to use for IPSC and I was 
##thinking about disconnecting the annoying magazine safety. 
##- how difficult is this to do? 
##- does it require a gunsmith? 
##- will it make the mags drop out easier?
##- is there any reason I should not do this?  (This is not a carry or
##  self-defence gun;  can't do that in the Great White North)

The "browning problem" for action shooting is that the magazines
don't fall out at the push of a button and must be pulled out as
the button is held down.  That can be remedied by a good smith
and the modification doesn't affect safety.  Check Handgunner et al
for smiths who specialize in the Hi-powers.  Behlert in Pennsylvania
is one who does Hi-power mods for action shooting.

BDW

#
#Everything I've ever read about guns has advised against disconnecting
#ANY safety mechanism.  If you disconnect it and some damage is done by
#the gun afterwards, your liability may be substantially increased.
#

Posting concerns IPSC gun not carry gun.  A carry gun should be "stock".
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:37 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Ben Sansing) writes:

#varmint would get dispatched with a 3" Chief's Special loaded with
#Federal Starfire .38 +Ps. This little gun "lives" in my right front
#pocket much of the time. I guess it would do the trick.

	Anyone with a chrony have some figures for .38s in a 3" barrel?
What kind of vel advantage is there over t2". 

For some reason, I like the looks of the 3" Chief's Special, but
a 2" in a six shooter.

Jim D
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:17:43 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <m0nBheG-0008QtC@liasun6.epfl.ch> baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:

## I saw an article and thought "whatta stupid gun!"  The promotion I saw
## was in the Nov 92 Hand Gunning.  The thing weighs 43 oz empty: 4 oz
## more than a 1911A1, & 20 oz more than a Glock.  Not too impressive for
## something designed to be a "compact".  For some reason, the vels
...

#I have seen an explanation for this added weight, which, IMHO, makes a
#lot of sense. .40S&W ammo are extremely fast to burn. This is why the
[explanation deleted]

Sure, that's a logical explanation for the added weight. But the original
poster's point was that the added weight didn't make sense in what is
supposed to be a compact carry gun--and I agree with him. 

Essentially, I don't think that the .40 S&W cartridge makes sense. It was
the child of the perennial search for the Holy Grail of magic
bullets--something that will make evil villains stop dead _every time_.
But what are the advantages of the 40 S&W over a hot 9mm Parabellum
cartridge? There's no evidence that it works better. (Consider that there's
some doubt whether the .45 ACP is better than the 9mm--and the 40 S&W is
supposed to be a compromise between the two!)

Despite this lack of demonstrable advantages over 9mm, and despite the fact
that the 40 S&W has significant drawbacks over this older cartridge (such
as requiring a beefier gun to make it work right, and reducing magazine
capacity) this round has become the darling of the gun mags and the
manufacturers. I can only conjecture that a new caliber is good for
business. 

In my opinion, the 40 S&W is an answer to a nonexistent question.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: pacdata!dave@uunet.UU.NET (David Ambrose)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A bit of trouble as a newbie reloader...
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:12 GMT
Organization: Steppenwolf's Magic Theater

In article <jrh.2b47eeb3-e@mustang.dell.com> jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard) writes:
#I just got an RCBS reloading press, along with the myriad of extras (deburring
#tool, primer pocket cleaner, trimmer, etc).  They didn't tell me how much I 
#was going to have to spend in order to save all this money :)
#
#Anyway, I'm attempting to load .357 and have managed all of it, except for 
#the crimping.  The seater die is supposed to handle both in one step, but
#the instructions appear to be written for someone that has done it all before,
#and I can't get the adjustment correct.  I was hoping that someone with a 
#similar setup, or experience with one, could post some pointers on how to
#make this adjustment.  

	First off,  all your cases must be the same length.  If in
doubt,  trim them.

	Setting the die is an easy process.

	1)  With the seating/crimping die left fairly far out of the
press,  put a case in the ram and run it all the way up.  Screw down the
die until it just contacts the case.  Set the locking ring on the die.

	2)  Unscrew the bullet seating plug all the way.  Withdraw the
case and place a bullet on it.  Run it into the die.  Check the seating
depth;  if it is not deep enough,  screw the seating plug further into
the die and reseat the bullet.

	3)  When the bullet is seated to the correct depth,  unscrew the
seating plug all the way again.

	4)  Unlock the die and screw in about 1/8 of a turn.  Run the
case up the ram and check the crimp.  When the crimp is adequate,  lock
the die.

	5)  Run the case back up into the die and screw the bullet
seater down until it contacts the bullet.  Set the lock ring on the
seating plug and the die is now set.

	I don't know why they don't tell you this in the little
brochure.


-- 
David Ambrose  BellNet:619/597-3426 		Internet: dave@pacdata.com

Play it cool,  play it cool,  fifty-fifty fire and ice -- Joni Mitchell
Cogito ergo zoom;    auto racing: It's not just a sport, it's an attitude.
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: guns vs. K9s
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:35 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan4.130458.7348@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
#Consider the following scenario:
#
#You are confronted with a very  unfriendly  and  rather  big  dog
#(growling,  foam  at  the mouth, suspected rabies) in your garden
#(so carry laws are not an issue).  What gun/ammo would  you  like
#to have with you?
#
	My first choice would be a 12 ga., #4 buck.  After  that, just
	about ANY shotgun.  Handguns are OK too, but I'd prefer the shotgun.
	I'd do with a rifle in a pinch, but it would be one the last
	choices.

	I agree that a .357 would do well.  I think anything from a 9mm
	on up would be OK, but of course even a .22 would be better than 
	nothing.

	Your concern for not wanting to scatter body parts all over the place
	is well founded, but must take a distant back seat to the need to
	kill the animal.  Rabid animals are incredibly dangerous, and it is
	absolutely amazing what they can do.  I have seen footage of rabid
	rabbits walking around on their hind legs like a man.  Gives me the
	willies big time just thinking about it.

	Six months ago I was chased down my street by a rabid racoon.  Scared
	the shit right out of me.  It then went into a neighbors yard and
	proceeded to shred their 200 pound Labrador, Sadie (yes, she IS a big
	girl :)).  Finally the cops arrived and blasted the `coon with a
	shotgun.  Took two shots to kill it.  

	The one thing I came away with from this experience was the distinct
	knowledge that such an animal is not like a living creature, but more
	like a biochemical machine.  Mindless and violent, it simply acts, and
	as such can be expected to do prodigious things.

	Also, FYI, do not make any contact with the creature whatsoever, dead
	or alive.  Rabies i horribly contagious.  My neighbors (Sadie's
	owners, and all four kids) had to get the shots because they all touched
	Sadie afterwards, in an attempt to give comfort.  Everyone was freaking
	out; it was a ery unpleasant scene, all in all.  Also, wash the area
	with chlorine bleach after the corpse is removed by animal control.

	-Andy V.
From: pusv1305@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Rem. 11-87 problems
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:28:42 GMT
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

I recently purchased a Remington 11-87 12 gauge.  The big selling point was
that you could shoot anything from 2 3/4 low brass field loads to 3 inch magnum
loads interchangeably.  Whell that's the hitch i've had it in the shop afte r
only 6 rounds, yes only 6 shots getting no more than two following rounds
before the bolt would lock back with the following round staring at me sitting
loose on the feed ramp.  I brought it to the shop and was told it needed to be
cleaned.  This had me burning because it was cleaned before it was brought in. 
Well it's been about two weeks and I bring it out to test fire and get three
rounds of 2 3/4 field load reload with a 2 3/4 high brass, a three inch mag.,
and a 2 3/4 field load.  Everything works fine untill I look for my last empty,
there she sits in the chamber.  Long winded I know, but has anyone had similar
problems with an 11-87?  The three Inch mag. uses a buffer, that builds up
after only a couple of rounds, could this buffer be blocking the gas vents? 
Any info apprecietated!
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10 mm autopistols
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:14:37 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <1i4m3mINNlqv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
:
:In a previous article, curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) says:
:
:#I keep hearing vaguely worded criticisms of the 10mm cartridge, but I
:#can never get any specifics.  I understand that the FBI dumped the
:#10 after having problems.  Were these problems:
:#     1)  feed problems (possibly caused by FBI-required modifications

I have never heard of this as a problem with the S&W 1076.

:#     2)  overpressure problems causing damage to the pistols

This is and was not a problem with the S&W pistols.

:#     3)  control problems caused by recoil and/or blast
:#????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Recoil was a problem with smaller/female agents when testing with the
full power loads.  This was one of the reasons for developing a
mid-power load for issue/duty use.

:#Does anyone know the real story?
:
:      4)  quality problems caused by insisting on S&W as a manufacturer.

       5)  trigger problems caused by the FBI's insistance on a
particluar trigger mechanism design.

:Jim Del Vecchio
:.40.  10mm is just a .40 with the potential to go hotter.
:
:I wonder why the FBI doesn't just let their agents pick their
:own guns, like some police departments do.

The FBI has announced(in Nov 92) that they are beginning to reissue the S&W 1076
10mm pistol to their agents.  They continue to do so at a rate of
about 2400 a year.  In addition, they are currently testing the HK MP5
in 10mm for prospective issue to replace the 9mm MP5.

Namy police agencies, especially the larger ones, insist on all
officers carrying the same weapon for several reasons.  Officer safety
is the biggest one, eveybody is trained on the same weapon and is
equally facil with with each others gun and has interchangeable
magazines/speedloaders.  Cost is another reason,  larger volume buys
give bigger discounts and greater leverage with the suppliers
(ammunition and hardware).

Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mmx19 powder choice?
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:13:53 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

rr@dymaxion.ns.ca (Rod Regier) writes:


#rr@dymaxion.ns.ca (Rod Regier) writes:
##My favorite 9mmx19 powder is HS-6 (or its almost twin Winchester 540).
##Used it with bullet weights 88gr to 158gr, excellent performance.

#n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
##	I went to the store planning to buy some 158 gr LRNs one day
##to use in my 9mm.  The point of this whim was to minimize leading
##with low vel (but high recoil) and to see what these long slugs would 
##do in front of the 4.6 gr BE that I like to use with every load in
##every caliber.  %^)
 <stuff deleted>
##
##	Later I decided that the idea was a waste of time and that
##there is nothing wrong with the 115-125 gr slugs that the gun is
##intended to work with.

#I used 158g SWC lead bullets for my "extremely heavy" projectile
#experiment in 9mm.  The pressure signs with HS-6 were acceptable,
 <stuff deleted>

#If you are looking for accurate, funtionally reliable
#loads in 9mm, stick with 115 to 124 grain projectiles.
 <stuff deleted>

For my own experiments with heavy bullets I used Accurate Arms No. 7
and lead 147g Flat Point/Truncated Cone  and 160g lead SWC.

The 160g SWC will feed and shoot in a SIG or HK P7 but not in my Browning HP.
The powder charge is _very_ compressed and the bullet deformed in the seating
process.  This is not a recipe for accuracy, reliabilty, or safety.

The 147g FP has turned out to be wonderful though.  It feeds in everything
I've tried it in except a Taurus 92.  The powder charge is lightly compressed
and the bullet seats easily.  My current load is the same as the max load
listed in the Accurate Arms guide.  BTW: AA#7 was designed for "hot" 9mm 
carbine/submachine gun loads.  It chronos at 1053fps in my Browning HP.
Recoil is greater than factory 115gr (but a lot less than hot .45 loads :-)

If the 147gr load is an answer in search of a question, the question is:

I have a 9mm and I'd like to shoot bowling pins.  What's a good load ?

  happy shooting,
    Chris
From: unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Ted Belliston)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Major 9 loading data.
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:28:27 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Salt Lake City

In article <C04sFr.BBG@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
#
#Someone posted a while back the Acurate Arms recomendataion for starting
#loads for Major 9 (Otherwise known as 9x21). If anyone has that
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                         NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#data, could you please send me a copy? thanks.
#*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
#

There is a wildcat called a Major 9, shot by a a few IPSC shooters, but it is 
not a 9x21.  The Major 9 uses a 9X19 pistol case (not a 9x21 case), and uses
a bullet weight of 162 gns.  The Major 9 load seating depth also exceeds SAAMI
specs for a 9x19 cartrige.  A Major 9 is ABSOLUTLY NOT TO BE SHOT IN A 9x19
firearm.  There are some gunsmiths who will build a custom gun for the Major 9
with an extra strong (fully supported chamber).  Sorry I don't have any data
on the major 9, but I can ask a guy I now, who shoots in our local USPSA chaper.
This is the only guy in our club who dares to shoot the Major 9.

I do have some useful data on loading the 9x21 though.  Just email me a reply.
The data I use is for a EAA 9x21 with a fully supported chamber.  Most factory
standard 9x21's still shoot under major though.  You need a stronger 9x21 to
survive the punishment a 9x21 at major pressures.  EAA makes several 9X21 
offerings that do quite nicely.
From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: What does TCSP mean?
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:09:55 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

The subject line says it all; what does "TCSP" mean? I have a box of
PMC .44Mag "240gr. TCSP" rounds, and I can't figure out what TCSP
stands for. I looked in the glossary in Hornady's reloading guide,
but no luck. 
The rounds look something like a cross between JHP and FP, but the
jacket extends beyond the lead, and curls back down to expose a circle
of lead (flat, not hollow) like so:
		    
		/\____/\<--jacket
	       / (lead) \<--jacket

I'm guessing that it means "Truncated Cone Soft Point," as the sides
are straight (rather than curved). Anyone know for certain?

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
 "..and I thought I wasn't going to get to use the "Liar, Liar, Pants
	on Fire" defense!" --Lt. Kaffey, "A Few Good Men"
From: davidst@microsoft.com (David Steckler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:52 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <01GT2YKJLIR691WNJK@vega.selu.edu> pusv1305@altair.selu.edu writes:
#I am trying to decide on an appropreate personal protection pistol and or
#shotgun?  I have looked at ballistics and energy on impack for different
#ranges.  I figure a maximum range of 30 yards, for this porpose.  I also live
#in a neighborhood where homes are close together, and thin walled.  For this
#reason I dont want something that will go through my house and the neighbors,
#ect.  I do however want one shot stopping!  A possible might be the .22 Magnum,
#the ballistics i've seen rate it up there with a .38, but I havent seen many on
#the market.  I am not in a situation to get up if the first shot misses and
#beat the perp. over the head.  I'm open to suggestions.  

Are you ever planning on carrying? If so, a shotgun is a little tough, though
not impossible :), to conceal.

	...Dave  (davidst@microsoft.com)