HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:15:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan7.122941.17857@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
> In article <1993Jan7.073501.4999@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
# #I didn't take Johnson's thesis therein to be that at all.  For one thing,
# #the sample was hardly representative of the great shapers of modern thought
# #(e.g., only one of the great state-of-nature political philosophers, Rousseau,
# #was included, neither Hobbes, who had chronological priority, nor Locke,
# #who arguably has had greater influence).  It seemed to me much more that
# #Johnson wished to expose some corruption in Western intelligentsia on the
# #theory that sunlight is the best disinfectant.
# 
# Oh, this is nonsense, Tim. The scandals of Bertrand Russell's life give us
# absolutely nothing useful in evaluating his work. Ditto for everyone else
# Paul Johnson sets out to trash. 
# 
# Johnson makes clear that he hopes to diminish the influence of his
# subjects by exposing their personal lives. It is an unprincipled tactic.
# 
# Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution

You mean, by pointing out that someone like Karl Marx, concerned
about capitalist exploitation of the workers, hungry children,
etc., treated an employee (his maid) badly, got her pregnant, and 
wouldn't support the resulting child?

Does this invalidate Marx's ideas?  Not necessarily -- but it
gives you reason to wonder why we hold this exploitive, unconcerned
father up as some sort of intellectual exemplar in the schools.

Oh that's right, because he IS an intellectual exemplar -- that is
to say, a hypocrite.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: cjd@dublwyde.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Dean)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 5 Jan 93 06:06:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.

I read 111 1/2 books in '92 (a personal record for me). All this talk about
book reading reminded me about something that happened in High School.
It was at the beginning of 11th grade, and my English teacher gave everyone a
3x5 index card and asked us to write down the titles of all the books we had
read in the last few years. I couldn't help laughing and making the comment 
that their were just too many to remember. That's when I started keeping track
of what I read and started competing with myself by trying to top my yearly
total each year (anyone else do this?)

--Kevin
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Homeschooling
Date: 6 Jan 1993 14:56:47 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

John Scott writes:

	Making such generalizations about homeschoolers is as ludicrous 
	as claiming that all Oregonians are homophobes because some of
	them supported Measure 9.

Which is itself as ludicrous as claiming that all those Oregonians who 
supported Measure 9 are homophobes.

							RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 19:32:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.173115.21728@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>Tell me first, Steve, whether or not you think affirmative action,
>>and its legal sanction, awards special privileges to blacks because
>>they are black.
>
>Tell us first that you know what constitutes "Affirmative Action."
>Most people don't.  

Oh, I'm sure Morris has some concocted fantasy from his armchair
of what affirmative action is.  Something equally imaginary as his
reading of CO:2 and its implications.

For the record, I do not think that blacks enjoy _any_ special privileges
whatsoever in our society, either from AA or from any other civil rights
legislation or court rulings.  How bizarre it is to even have to state
something so obvious.  I guess it's the white man's burden to be led along
by the hand in these matters.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 13 Jan 93 05:51:22 GMT
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.

In article <12JAN93.04491379@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>Elena A Christofides writes: 
>
>>The one major reason I agree with much of Paglia's sentiments center around
>>her treatment of the "empowerment of women" and how modern day feminists
>>have done more to degrade and diminish the power of the woman. 
>>I'm more offended by a woman who upon incurring some terrible (verbal)
>>assault (I DON'T MEAN RAPE!) by a member of the opposite sex, 
>>say in the workplace, like "Hey baby, come over here and show off your hot 
>>legs!" Runs off to some authority crying "BooHooHoo, he said BAD things to 
>>me!" Instead of just kicking him in the shins and telling him to go to
>>hell! 
>
>Michael Sean Rooney writes: 
>
>>        This is all well and good, but who are these "crybaby" feminists? 
>
>Were you paying any attention a while back when Clarence Thomas was going
>through his confirmation hearings?

	Yup.  Seemed to me a bunch of fierce (who knows, maybe even
Italian) women asserted they weren't going to roll over and let a harasser
who exploited and dominated women rule over the constitutional law
of the United States.  They failed, but I'd like you to tell Professor 
Hill that she was a weak-kneed crybaby in facing down the Senate
Judiciary Committee and global media.

Cordially,

Michael S. Rooney
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:36:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.213239.9674@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>Scorn for the attitude of most white het boys as typified by Morris
>and those who are less verbose (I refuse to use the word "eloquent")
>when it comes to the topic of civil rights and (in)justice.  But I'm
>sorry: calling someone a heterosexual might be scornful in the right
>context (here), but it isn't typically an insult.

What about calling someone a "boy"?

I seem to recall another group that has found the term "boy" to represent
contempt.

I note that you criticize the attitude of "most white het boys." This
suggests that even those white male heterosexuals who agree with you are
still only "white het boys."


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:25:16 GMT

In article <1iqo8vINNr2@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Mike Godwin writes:
>
>	I confess to having read George Macdonald Fraser's Flashman 
>	books without having gotten through TOM BROWN'S SCHOOL DAYS. 
>	Fortunately, the latter is not necessary to enjoy the former.
>
>TB'sSD is not that difficult a read, and gives a fair picture of Arnold's
>Rugby. Obviously Mike cannot judge the value added that reading Tom
>Brown's Schooldays would bring to the Flashman series.

Nor would I claim to. All I was saying was that one can enjoy the Fraser books
without having their earnest predecessor. 

This should not be taken as argument against reading TOM BROWN'S SCHOOL
DAYS.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Het Boys
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 12:42:17 GMT

In article <C0pun4.Mv@panix.com>, mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
|> 
|> patk@sr.hp.com (Patrick Kearney) writes:) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> > What's all this buffoonery got to do with books & literature, I am
|> > moved to enquire. All very interesting in its place I'm sure, but
|> > in rec.arts.books?
|> 
|> As near as I can tell, r.a.b works like this:
|> 
|> 
|> 	 1.  Someone mentions a book.
|> 	 2.  Others comment on the book.
|> 	 3.  Someone talks about an idea related to the book.
|> 	 4.  A lively discussion about ideas follows.
|> 	 5.  Someone desides that someone is an asshole, and calls him a name.
|> 	 6.  Heather tells that person off.
|> 	 7.  That person tells Heather off.
|> 	 8.  A new discussion starts about the name that was called.
|> 	 9.  Godwin's Rule is invoked.
|> 	10.  Someone says "what does this have to do with books?"
|> 	11.  I explain the sequence of events.
|> 	12.  Either someone calls me an asshole (where we either jump back
|> 	     to step 6 or 7, depending on whether it is Heather or someone
|> 	     else who calls me an asshole), or the thread dies.
|> 
|> Even r.a.b has its 12 step plan.
 
 Mark, do you have to be such an asshole about it?
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Paglia
Organization: Clark University
Date: 8 JAN 93 14:44:20 GMT

Michael McDonald writes:

>Having seen her on several
>TV programs, I must say that I find her less than impressive.
>Her public discourse is so intractably narcissistic that the only *subject*
>she strikes me as being in any way articulate about is that of  . . .
>Camille Paglia.

I continually find it interesting to see terms like "narcissistic" applied
to Paglia.  Also, words like "boastful", "arrogant", and "egomaniacal".
She is, of course.  But so what?  Male writers, critics, and academics
have been narcissistic, boastful, arrogant, and egomaniacal for ages.
Why is it a constant source of comment in Paglia's case?  Ask yourself if
you'd be so quick to characterize her that way if she were a man.

In the excellent book _The Warrior Queens_, Antonia Fraser examines the
subject of male (and female) reaction to strong, loud, aggressive women.
The chapter on Margaret Thatcher is of special interest; Fraser discusses
how many of Thatcher's (liberal) foes called her "fishwife" because of
her "strident" speeches in the House of Commons, something a male politician
would never be called.

>As someone having difficulty gaining a foothold in
>academia, I can understand her frustration with the manner in which her
>career was sabotaged (in her view), but to blame the initial career problems
>she experienced on a conspiracy of arch-feminists strikes me as both
>irresponsible and immature.

I haven't heard her blame the "disaster" of her career (as she puts it)
on arch-feminists.  I always had the impression that she thought it was
due to her abrasive personality and her unwillingness to suck up to those
in power, as well as her involvement in certain "rowdy incidents" (a phrase
used in _Sex, Art, and American Culture_ which leaves me wanting more
details).  Of course, her iconoclastic beliefs must have had a lot to
do with it.  But again, I've never heard her blame it on a conspiracy of
arch-feminists.

>Moreover, given the fact that she has *now*
>achieved a rare level of success and notoriety, her constant whining is
>undignified.

Camille Paglia is about the last person I would accuse of "whining".
Bitching, maybe, but not whining.  In any case, I've only heard her
refer to the disaster of her career as the thing that gave her the
freedom to do and say what she wants, and do an "end-run" around the
academic establishment.  I think she considers it a turning point in
her life.

Your use of the word "undignified" is interesting too.  Paglia goes
to great lengths to be undignified.  It's part of her persona.

>(She'd probably say, trotting out one of her pet
>stereotypes, that Italians don't care about having a dignity defined in
>that way . . .)

Would she?

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: donz@uiunix.ui.org (Don Zirilli)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Date: 6 Jan 93 04:55:01 GMT
Organization: UNIX International, Parsippany, NJ  07054

In article <1993Jan5.191537.16029@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
<In article <401@uiunix.ui.org> donz@uiunix.ui.org (Don Zirilli) writes:
<
<>>The statistics on use of the opposite gender's point of view wouldn't
<>>really tell us how well the writers' efforts were received.
<>
<>note above that HH said "canon".  This is not a term of "use" but precisely
<>a term of "well...received" work.  You can dispute her facts here, but not
<>her logic.
<
<On the contrary, I was disputing the connection between the question as
<phrased and the research as suggested. Heather recognized the validity of
<my distinction when she wrote, in response, that the data wouldn't address
<the question as she phrased it. (It certainly would be useful in settling
<the question as she rephrased it.)

Regardless of what you and Heather are talking about, I still think your
statement about statistics does not make sense unless you were not 
equating "statistics" with the canon, which is what it seemed you were 
doing, since you put one statement right after the other.

Not that I care.  I'd just like to say that in my books, I've tried both
male and female points of view and am unconvincing at both--to my credit.
And no you can't read my books until someone gets me a publisher.
<
<I would not dream of disputing that the Canon "accepts" more male authors
<than female ones. (And thank you for your kind explanation of what the
<word "canon" means.) But this thread originated in a discussion of the
<issue of whether it is difficult for an author of one gender to convey the
<point of view of a character of the other. Representation in the Canon
<is irrelevant to this issue.
<
ouch.  Was that a parenthetical dig I felt?  Do you feel I was patronizing
you?  Have you already forgotten that I have gazed upon thy features and
thus could never understimate the grandeur of your mind?  I would sooner
patronize Elijah or William F. Buckley.  Gee whiz.


Yours, still and ever,

Posthumous O'Toole

-- 
Chucklehead awaits the return of his .sig

Aaron Radomski, where are you???
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: c_mcdon@pavo.concordia.ca (MCDONNELL, CATHERINE)
Subject: Re: academic settings
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Concordia University
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:00:00 GMT

Francis Muir writes:
>One of Evelyn Waugh's funniest tales involved a public school 
>teacher who ends up in gaol (?). I have a vague memory of a scene
>in the Scrubbs (Wormwood Scrubbs for the incog.) chapel the evening
>before a hanging where the words of the hymn "Og God, our help in ages 
>past" are altered to suit. But enough. Early Waugh is very, very good.

That's _Decline and Fall_, in which the mild-mannered hero ends up
in jail due to a comedy of errors. On brooding about the situation,
he says to himself: "...anyone who has been to an English public
school will always feel comparatively at home in prison. It is the
people brought up in the gay imtimacy of the slums, Paul learned,
who find prison so soul-destroying."

Great stuff, yes.


Kate
From: delatizk@bbn.com (Jonathan Delatizky)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: academic settings
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:12:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

And, of course, there's Frank Parkin's _The Mind and Body Shop_.

Also moderately dystopian, and at times excessively heavy-handed, but an
entertaining quick read.



--
Jonathan Delatizky  *  Bolt Beranek & Newman  * If you mention Rimbaud in Bel
delatizky@bbn.com   *    10 Moulton Street    *  Air it is assumed you're
{...}!bbn!delatizky *   Cambridge MA 02138    *  talking about Sylvester
+1 617 873 3366     *  FAX: +1 617 873 2205   *  Stallone  -  Peter Mayle
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: pamela@sscux1.ssc.gov (pamela gurd)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:17:42 GMT

In article <scottj-060193084433@iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu> scottj@magic.dml.georgetown.edu (John L. Scott) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.035212.19318@cheshire.oxy.edu>,
>athena@cheshire.oxy.edu (Staci Ann Waldroop) wrote:
>> You say that the educational system is bad.  I ask you...WHAT ARE YOU DOING 
>> ABOUT IT???
>
>Okay, I'll tell you what I do.  I advocate and support a school voucher
>system which would allow parents to spend their vouchers on public, private
>or home schools, with no restrictions on who may run or teach in a private
>school or on how such schools may be run.  I can think of no better way to
>improve the schools than letting the free market work.
>
>--John L. Scott

I hesitate to respond, because I haven't been following much so I don't
know what's already been said, but I must say this.  I believe strongly
in the rights of all children to a chance at education.  I cannot
understand how a voucher system will help the ones who need the most
help: those whose parents are not involved or who do not have the
resources to choose a school other than the closest one.  I don't
have an answer; but it seems obvious to me that a voucher system
condemns the children of the ghetto to a substandard education.
Even worse than now - the parents who would have cared enough to
try to work on the neighborhood school will send their children
elsewhere.  A voucher system also spends money on private schools
for rich kids.

A voucher system is a solution for middle-class kids, with parents
with resources - but it makes the problem worse where it is worst
now.

Pam.
From: wdw@sybase.com (Wayne Wong)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:46:39 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.


Since talk has turned to this, early last year a Northern
California was discovered to have literally thousands of
overdue library books in her apartment. She'd apparently
checked them out (as well as stolen them) from many libraries 
in the area over a few years. Don't know what her story
was (she gave no statement to press or police) or her
fate, I'm afraid. If, indeed, her intent was to read them,
I guess it could qualify as an addiction.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Books I Got For Xmas
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:44:45 GMT

In article <C0D0s3.G4w@panix.com> mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:
>
>People have generally given up the practice of buying me books
>(or recordings) for Christmas, unless I have carefully prepped
>them with a shopping list (and this tends to inhibit the joy

Whenever one of the RABble recommends something interesting, I paste the
posting to a file.  This file has grown to several _hundred_ titles, and
I circulate it to the family on Christmas and birthdays.  Thanks to all
of you who have unwittingly contributed.  The selection is so huge and 
varied that I doubt gift shoppers feel much limited.

			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Books I Got For Xmas
Organization: Clark University
Date: 4 JAN 93 19:26:16 GMT


I wrote:

>>To connect this with a recent r.a.b. thread: would Anne Rice's
>>skill (or lack thereof) at writing from a male point of view excite
>>any comment at all if she had published under a male pseudonym?

Mike Godwin wrote:

>No, but her skill at writing from a female point of view might, if it were
>not known that the male pseudonym concealed a female author.

Maybe.  I'm not so sure.  I think people are more demanding of a female
writer writing from a male point of view.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: c_mcdon@pavo.concordia.ca (MCDONNELL, CATHERINE)
Subject: Re: Celebrating McGonagall
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Concordia University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 04:24:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.223131.15522@ecrc.de>, sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes...
>Um, excuse the ignorance, but is McGonagall the poet that a Certain British
>TV Program once did a feature on?  The Scots poet who wrote such masterpieces
>as  "If ye lend me fiyve bob till Thursdae..." ?

No, that was Ewan McTeagle, whose greatest work was titled "Can I have
fifty pounds to mend the shed?" - a work much more _vers libre_ than
anything of McGonagall's.



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:36:04 GMT

Conjure Wife by Fritz Lieber
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:21:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan9.173115.21728@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> In article <C0LGvn.G8I@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
> >Steve Dyer writes:
# # Tell me, Morris, do you think blacks have "special privileges" because they
# # are black?  I wanna hear you say it.  It'll be really, really satisfying
# # to hear you say that.  John Stuart Mill, indeed!  It is to gasp with
# # astonishment.
# 
# #Tell me first, Steve, whether or not you think affirmative action,
# #and its legal sanction, awards special privileges to blacks because
# #they are black.
# 
# Tell us first that you know what constitutes "Affirmative Action."
# Most people don't.  
# 
# Roger

AA in theory is just fine.  In practice, it is implemented as a racial
and sexual quota system.  In my experience.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: GE.GMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Greg Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 11 Jan 1993 11:07:53 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Johnson's book should have been called Ideologues.  But of course
he couldn't use that title, because then he would have had to admit
that he was an ideologue of the Right doing a job on ideologues of
the Left.

I must say that my Anglophilia suffered a blow when I found out that
Johnson was a Brit and not one of our domestic Moseses.

Greg
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 7 Jan 93 04:18:48 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <C0G10r.IuI@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>It may help you to understand that, though the law has been sliding
>into trying to establish such a right, *I* do not believe that
>employment, say, ought to be considered a human right.

The law, in its majestic impartiality, forbids the rich as well as the poor    
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
                                --Anatole France

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer