From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: The Finality of Allah's Apostle (SAW)
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:58:26 GMT

[ Article crossposted from soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh ]
[ Author was Nadeem Malik ]
[ Posted on Sun, 22 Nov 1992 17:38:53 GMT ]

ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:
: In <1992Nov20.173356.27837@bernina.ethz.ch> nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik) writes:
: 
: >merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant) writes:
: >: 
: >: 
: >: 	The Finality of Allah's Apostle (SAW).
: >: 
: >: 
: >: 	Abu Haraira report Allah's Messenger (SAW) as saying:
: >: 	The similitude of mine and that of the Apostles
: >: 	before me is that of a person who built a house
: >        ^^^^^^
: >: 	quite imposing and bueatiful, but for one
: >: 	brick in one of its corners.   People would
: >: 	go around it, appreciating the building, but
: >: 	saying: Why has the brick not been fixed here?  He
: >: 	said:  I am that brick and I am the last of the 
: >: 	Apostles.
: >: 
: >: 		Sahih Muslim.
: >: 
: 
: >Answer: Note the word "before". If the Holy Prophet (SAW) was absolutely
: >the last prophet, then the inclusion of this word is illogical. Why not
: >just say "The similitude of mine and the that of the Apostles is that ..
: >.." ? Clearly there is a meaning in this conditional term "before".
: >It is saying that sure enough Muhammad (SAW) has completed the pinnacle
: >of Prophethood and none may come to advance it. But this says nothing
: >against possible Messengers afterwards who may come to revive Muslims
: >after decay. Sure, it dosn't actually say that such Messengers will
: >actually come, but it leaves open the possibility that may they do so in
: >the future. This is clear and logical I think.
: 
: Sorry, it is not logical. 

Sorry, but it IS perfectly logical. 

: 
: The Hadeeth says: the Prophets can be compared to a building. In that
			^^^^^^^^
sorry, but only Prophets BEFORE Holy Prophet -- that is the point!

: building there is one missing brick, which is Mohammed(saw). The
: building became complete and there is no room for any other bricks after
: Mohammed (saw).
: 
: Reviving Muslims does not need prophets. The full message of Islam is
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: there. Only it needs people to carry that message and deliver it in its
: clean and original form. 


With respect, this is your opinion. I believe that the Quran supports the
concept that Prophets were in the past and can in the futute be sent for
reviving Muslims. This is clear even from the non-Ahmadi point view 
that Jesus will come again to revive Muslims. Now whether or not this
breaks the finality of prophethood is, to my mind, secondary to the point
that ALL MUSLIMS AGREE THAT THE NEED OF THE HOUR IS FOR A MESSENGER OF
ALLAH TO BE SENT BY HIM TO REVIVE MUSLIMS. This is unquestionably the 
substantial issue --- whether Jesus is an old or new prophet is quite 
immaterial to the needs of the time.

: The Hadeeth of the Prophet should not be taken as a mystry. It is a
: simple talk from a prophet who wants to teach his simple, almost
: illiterate companions. So when he says that there is no prophet after
: him then he only means that, and when he refers to himself as the final
: brick in the house of prophethood, then he means that. He means that the
: house is complete now, and there is no place for other prophets.
: 
I cannot agree that the statements of the Holy Prophet (SAW) are for
simple minded, illerate types only. If this were the case then it would
make all scholars that have come in Islam redundant. The fact is that the
Holy Prophet (SAW) as a Messenger of Allah spoke simple words indeed, but
well chosen by the Grace of Allah so that his sayings are like oceans in
which people can relate at their own level -- a man with a samll cup will
be as satisfied as a man with a bucket to drink from the ocean of his
knowledge. There is off course a danger in both directions -- too much
over-intellectualism and too simplictic an approach are both mis-leading.
The golden mean is to study these hadith with correct definitions and
with honesty and prayers.

: 
: >: --
: >: 31. Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you
: >: and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
: >: 
: >: 32. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then
: >: surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
: >: 
: >: The Holy Quran: The Family of Imran.
: >: 
: >: --
: >: 
: >: May Allah (swt) guide us. Amin.
: >: 
: >: -Rukhsana Merchant
: 
: >Miss Rukhsana has on several occassions put great emphasis on sunna, and
: >particularly on the need to look at *ALL* Sunna. It is obvious, therefore,
: >that she cannot be aware of the many hadith which clearly talk about
: >Messengers to come in the future. I am preparing a series of articles
: >in response to one Raheel Khan's postings some time ago. Since I have
: >prepared one on the importance of sunnat and hadith, I will am posting
: >that one early because it is relevant to this item by Miss Rukhsana. 
: >Fir the moment I will give just one hadith to ilustrate the point of
: >looking at *ALL* hadith:
: 
: >On the death of Ibrahim, son of the Holy Prophet (SAW), he said:
: >	"If Ibrahim had lived, he would have been a true Prophet."
: >	(A very authentic hadith from Ibn-e-Majah, Kitabul Janaiz)
: 
: This what you say as Hadeeth contradicts with the Hadeeth that teaches
: us how to behave; that we shouldn't say if so had happened then that would
: have happened, because IFF opens the Door for Satan."
: So how do you expect the prophet to say something in the way you
: presented it?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here?

: 
: >There are plenty other like this. So I request Miss Rukhsana, and
: >others, to please look at *ALL* hadith before making a decision on
: >such an important matter. Most of the hadith that apparently speak
: >of termination of Prophethood can be quite well explained either
: >as referring to a limited category of Prophets (like "before" in
: >the hadith above quoted by Miss Rukhsana), or they contain some
: >other reasonable meaning. These things I am preparing, so please
: >watch out for them. Thank you.
: 
: Even what you consider as Hadeeth doesn't tell any thing. " If Ibrahim
: had lived then he would have been a true Prophet "
: 
: It could mean that there will be false prophets, because the baby who
: could be a true prophet had died.
: 
: It could mean also that Ibrahim has the qualities of Prophets, but he
: died.

I don't understand how these interpretations can be put into the hadith?

Also, the last point that you make has an interesting corrolary; what is
the difference between being a prophet and having the qualities of a 
prophet? If you have all the qualities of prophethood then you must by
definition be a prophet because all things are in reality defined by
their qualities.

I am bound to ask, with sincerity, that is there not in what you are saying
a direct contradiction in what you proposed earlier, i.e. about not taking
hadith as mysteries and taking the simple and straightforward
meaning of anything that the Holt Prophet (SAW) said? If your method is applied
here the there is only one meaning to the above hadith ... Ibrahim would
have been a prophet had he grown up, and as a direct implication it 
proves that prophets from within the Muslim umma can certainly come.
 
: 
: >By the way there are also about 4 or 5 verses of the Holy Quran
: >that talk of future prophets ... that I am preparing also. These are,
: >to say the least, totally decisiev on the issue.
: 
: 
: >In the mean time, let us pray for Allah's guidence. Amen
: 
: >Nadeem Malik, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
: Ahmed
: 
: -- 
: Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College,
: Dublin 2, Ireland.
: Tel: office: +353-1-7021524
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan