HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:29:39 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Panagiotis Lolonis (lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) writes:

>>The closest precedence that I can think of is that of
>>China and Taiwan.  In that case, the Chinese objections were accepted
>>by the international community and the term "China" does not appear
>>on the international label of Taiwan.

>Which as Stavros Macrakis explained is a very different case, since
>the Taiwan regime claimed to the legal government of the entire China.
>Macedonia doesn't claim to be the legal government of Greece, or even
>Greek Macedonia.

 According to many Taiwanize friends of mine, Macrakis's comment is incorrect.
 In fact, this is a very similar case.
 Note also, that Taiwan will be part of China in a few years...
 
>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic)
Subject: Re: CampsIII
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:56:54 GMT

	Errol Craig writes:

>>>
  (Zoran Draskovic) writes:
  >
  > BANJA LUKA, Bosnia-Hercegovina (UPI) -- A British opposition party
  >leader Tuesday ended a private inquiry into alleged human rights
  >violations at Serb-run detention camps, saying that he found poor
  >conditions but NO evidence of systematic torture and killing at the
  >locations he visited.

 And at home, I always make sure our bathroom is clean before we
 have company over.

 Errol

<<<
 	I understand. But, what should they do to convince you? Why do
 you think that they will not keep from now on their "bathroom clean"?

 	Remember, camp story are so far allegations by Serbian enemyes in
 Bosnia. As the response, Bosnian Serbs opened all their camps to inspection
 (am I right here?) I hope they will keep it open. Media loves the story,
 but so far all they showed (from the *worst* camp, Omraska) are some
 pictures of underfead man behind the fence. We have also seen picture (ABC)
 of a Serb being butchered in Muslim/Croat camp, but these story remained
 unfollowed. Why?

 	This days we have some more reports of what these outside inspectors
 found, such as the UPI report you comented. There will be more to come.
 Well-minded people like you should also hope that Serbian allegations of
 attrocities against them in Croatian and Muslim camps will be seriously
 investigated. Especially given the history of the region.

	And, if you think that you figured out all about who is to blaim for
 the civil war in Bosnia and Hercegovina, aren't you provoked to think
 twice when you hear gen. McKenzie warnings that "some" are bombing
 their own people to exploite it for propaganda purposes (McNeil-L), or when he
 claims that he dealt on a dayly basis (sometimes twice a day) with both sides,
 and that he did not have impression that Bosnian Serb side asks for approval
 from Belgrade. Or when he reports that it is Bosnian (rump) presidency which
 so far rejected to negotiate with Serbs, hoping that by ignoring them they
 will maintain the image of the other side being an "outside agressor"
 and not their own citizens (Bosnian Serbs). Or when dr.Kisinger warns that
 Bosnia and Hercegovina is not and never was unified country, but made of
 three different people who just  do not like each other (anymore), and that
 no millitary solution seems possible. Or when US general who studied the
 overall problem in some depth, testifies that the problem is not to destroy
 4,000 tenks, but the "hate of the *three people* " (who do not want to live
 with each other). What do you think these people, who know bit more than
 the hysteric bosons from mass-media and the blood-thursty "ladies of the
 right" (J. Kirkpatric and M. Tacher), are persistently hinting to? 

	-----------------------------

	Uhh. I don't know why I tell you all this things, your short coment
 didn't call for it. Anyway.

	Regards,
	Petar. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:11:39

Panagiotis Lolonis (lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu) wrote:

   Arguments stating that those people live in part of the region Macedonia
   are not very convincing because geographical space does not entitle
   rights to its inhabitants -I cannot declare that I am an American and
   expect everybody else to accept my declaration simply because I live in
   the United States.

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) said:

   >And the Macedonians have lived for a much longer time in Macedonia
   >that most of the Americans have lived in the US.

In article <1992Aug12.062236.2655@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) replies:

   This is a diversion from the discussion.  The question was:  Can I
   declare that I am an American, simply because I have lived in the U.S. for
   several years, and insist that my declaration should be accepted?
   (Replace U.S. with Sweden or even better with Germany if you wish).

As a matter of fact, if you are born in the US, you are automatically a US
citizen, yes.  This principle is valid in many (but not all) countries.

    >many of the Macedonians have lived in Macedonia for a long time.
    >(Although their Macedonian identity is more recent.)

   I am still waiting for the definition of "Macedonian" identity and why
   it should be called "Macedonian" and not something else.  I am curious to
   see what are the unique characteristics of the people that you call
   "Macedonians".

Probably the same definition as any other ethnic group in the world: they
consider themselves a group, others consider them distinct.  Of course,
some Bulgarians consider the Slavo-Macedonians to be Bulgarian.  But then,
some Italians consider the Corsicans to be Italian.  There are no objective
criteria in these matters.  After all, to an outside observer, the
differences between Croats and Serbs or Dutch and Flemish or Catalan and
Spanish also seem minimal.

   ...In the Greek-Skopjean conflict, Greece has objections, and that is
   the difference.  The closest precedence that I can think of is that of
   China and Taiwan.  In that case, the Chinese objections were accepted by
   the international community and the term "China" does not appear on the
   international label of Taiwan.

There is a big difference.  The former government of Taiwan explicitly
claimed to be the legitimate government of all of China.

	-s
From: pnmideast@igc.apc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:29 PDT
Subject: Balkans Peace Boat sails Friday
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300363:000:2866
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Aug 18 23:29:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Balkans Peace Boat sails Friday

/* Written  9:56 am  Aug 18, 1992 by gn:warresisters in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Balkans Peace Boat sails Friday" ---------- */
A PEACE BOAT FOR BALKANS
Balkan Network for Peace and Solidarity

After the collapse of Eastern Europe, the process of unification of
our continent is being accomplished under unequal and unbalanced
conditions.  So, on the one hand, a process of unification, centred in
the western part of our Continent, is pushed forwards -- not always
under the best conditions and without the active participation of
European peoples; on the other hand, Eastern Europe and the
Balkans is being torn to pieces.  Forgotten nationalism, unhistoric
conflicts and foreign interference combine to lead into a crisis
without precedent and the Lebanonisation of our region.

The Balkans -- instead of forming a pole of peace, cooperation and
solidarity that could enable the peoples of the Balkans to participate
actively in the process of European unification -- are transformed
into an area of destruction and dissolution.

This process of decomposition leads to the direct intervention of
foreign forces in our area which undertakes to "to put our place in
order" and for us.

Faced by this situation, we think that civil society must react as
energetically as possible.  We propose the creation of a Balkan
Network for Peace and Solidarity which will include people from
all the Balkan countries.  As a first step, we will send a peace boat
in the Yugoslavian coasts, a boat against the logic of the war and
the military blockade.

On Friday, 21 August, this boat with an international crew will
start its journey from Piraeus.

Saturday, 22/8/92:  Reach the port of Patras, reception and press
                    conference
Sunday, 23/8/92:    Preveza (near the NATO AWACS base),
                    demonstration with the participation of the city
                    mayor
Monday, 24/8/92:    Corfu, meeting with local authorities; departure
                    for Ag Saranta, Albania
Tuesday, 25/8/92:   Ag Saranta (Albania)
Weds, 26/8/92:      Durres (Albania)
Tues, 27/8/92:      Arrival to Bar (port of Montenegro), reception
Friday, 28/8/92:    Departure for Dubrovnik
Arrival in Corfu on Sunday 30/8/92 or Monday 31/8/92

PEACE NOW IN YUGOSLAVIA -- BALKANS S.O.S

For more information and participation in this campaign, contact:
Balkans SOS Network
Federation of Ecological and Alternative Organisations
Themistokleous 56
Athens
tel: +30 1 36 25 319, +30 1 36 02 644, +30 1 36 43 972
fax: +30 1 36 39 930, +30 1 36 44 476

or
Alternative Bookshop "Praxis"
Armenopoulou 24
Thessaloniki
tel +30 31 20 23 49 or +30 31 28 60 42

Bank account: National Bank of Greece, 151/617615-13

Posted by War Resisters' International who know nothing about
this except what appears above.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8056 soc.culture.turkish:9044 soc.culture.greek:7672 soc.culture.europe:7449
From: rdavis@convex.com (Ray Davis)
Subject: Re: More Sarajevo notes
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:54:31 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

>Sarajevo, by contrast, is such an audacious tease that
>it's worth going there to see, because the newspaper photos

If I take care of travel arrangements for you, would you be willing
to go there for a few weeks and find out?  Perhaps while you're there
you could speak to a few Convex prospects, since the Balkan is in my
office's territory.  We do have customers in Ljubljana and Belgrade,
but I'm sure the thriving industry in Sarajevo have a new supercomputer
topmost in their agendas.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8172 soc.culture.greek:7803
From: stelios@ra.cs.umb.edu (Stelios Evgeniou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:47:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Aug20.224715.26712
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Dept of Math and CS

In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug19132750@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>It seem to me that it is in Greece's interest to have an independent,
>peaceful, and prosperous Slavo-Macedonia on its northern border.  Of
>course, there need to be clear treaties about borders.  As for the
>small number of Slavs in Northern Greece, I see nothing wrong with
>Slavo-Macedonia keeping in contact with them, just as Greece's
>consular corps keeps in contact with Greek emigrants abroad and
>Israel's consular corps keeps in contact with Jews abroad (even if
>they've never been to Israel).  If any Greek thinks this is a threat,
>perhaps there is a larger Slavic population in Northern Greece than I
>thought, and some better solution needs to be found for them.  If
>there is not a large Slavic population there, what's the problem?
>
>	-s

 Amen!!! Slavo-Macedonia Yes. Macedonia No.


				- nikos -
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7974 soc.culture.greek:7546 soc.culture.europe:7329 eunet.politics:1059 soc.culture.australian:3908
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALLY RECOGNISES THE INDEPENDENCE OF MACEDONIA
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:10:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BszJsy.2L1
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>in article <1992Aug12.072213.29909@sunbim.be> on Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:58:52 GMT
>George writes:


> George> 	Ahah ha ha ha ha. During the last minour
> George> (What they called major) demonstration, the
> George> Skopjiens FAILED to get any important political
> George> leaders to address their demonstration. The only
> George> one they got is an Aboriginal leader ie. the
> George> equivalent of an American Indian for the US. So
> George> were is the joke.  Well if they came up and said
> George> The Indian goverment of US recognises whattever
> George> ... ie. one fake goverment recognising another.
> George> A note to make is that Given a name of Makedonia
> George> to your future country neither of us will ever
> George> rest. ie. tensions till kingdom come. and not
> George> two the true g overment of Australia supports
> George> Greece on all fronts :-) 	George


>All that your writing shows is your rasist ideas. You
>talk about the Aborigins in Australia, and Indians in 
>America  like that they are
>some lower species. It reminds me of the way the 
>rasist white people in South Arfica talk about the 
>native inhabitansts. It is with the same respect
>that you talk about Macedonians, and the Macedonian
>goverment.

>I hope that this is not the general spirit within Greek 
>people.

 Nope, it's not. But still laughing about the aboriginal goverment 
 of Australia.  Shouldn't we?

>Sasa.

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: ck@cs.tulane.edu (Cris Koutsougeras)
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 07:52:40 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-22561]: saturn


In article <MACRAKIS.92Aug12141139@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:

>   This is a diversion from the discussion.  The question was:  Can I
>   declare that I am an American, simply because I have lived in the U.S. for
>   several years, and insist that my declaration should be accepted?
>   (Replace U.S. with Sweden or even better with Germany if you wish).
>
>As a matter of fact, if you are born in the US, you are automatically a US
>citizen, yes.  This principle is valid in many (but not all) countries.

Ohhhh here is Mr. Macrakis, the man of iron integrity to straighten once
again everything to the letter and to not let a fly go by the rules...

Citizen is not declarative of ethnicity sir. I wonder how you missed
that.  Or maybe you didn't but nevertheless the idea of making this
totally irrelevant point was kind of reinforcing this good idea about
this absolute integrity of yours...

And what Mr. Lolonis meant was exactly the claim on ethnicity or share
in the kind of values and conciousness and self awareness which are
characteristic and identifying an ethnic group.  Do you consider
yourself (ethnic) French ? 

What is more, yes by virtue of birthplace one is considered American
citizen, but if you see goverment forms they have a list of ethnic
backgrounds to check on: Hispanic, Indian, etc etc.  And do you know
what exactly the term "ethnic American" identifies?  Or have you
wondered about the variations "American-Indian", "Chinese-American" etc?

-ck
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: SEMINAR: MACEDONIA IN TRANSITION
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 16:29:31 GMT

SEMINAR: MACEDONIA IN TRANSITION

   On Friday August 28th the  Macedonian  Studies  Foundation,  a
part  of  Macquarie  University, will hold a major seminar titled
Macedonia in Transition.

   The seminar features four prominent Macedonians:  an  academic
economist,  a  publisher,  a  journalist, and a human rights cam-
paigner, each of international stature in their field.

   The first speaker, Professor Bobek Suklev, will speak  on  the
topic:  Privatization  in  the  Republic of Macedonia.  Professor
Suklev is an academic economist on exchange at Macquarie  Univer-
sity.

   The second speaker, Mr Ivan Capovski, will discuss the  topic:
Aegean  Macedonia  and the 1948 Diaspora: a Literary Perspective.
In 1948 over 20,000 Macedonian children were evacuated  from  the
Greek  part  of Macedonia during the Greek Civil War. Mr Capovski
was one of those children.  He is now a novelist and  editor  for
Makedonska Kniga, one of Macedonia's major publishing houses.

   The third speaker, Mr Zlatko Blajer, will speak on the  topic:
The politics of Information: Macedonia and Europe.  Now Melbourne
based, Mr Blajer is a noted journalist who has worked as  foreign
correspondent  for  a number of leading Macedonian newspapers and
was based in Athens for many years.  He now runs Makpress.

   The fourth speaker, Mr Peter Kotevski, is a member of the Aus-
tralian Macedonian Human Rights Committee of NSW. His subject is:
A chronology: Towards recognition of Macedonia.

   Professor Di Yerbury, Vice Chancellor of Macquarie University,
will officiate the seminar, which will be in English.

   Macedonia In Transition will be held from 7.30 to  10.30pm  on
August  28th  at C5C Building, Macquarie University, Epping, Syd-
ney.  As organizer, the Macedonian Studies  Foundation  Committee
would like to invite you to attend this major seminar and to meet
the speakers.


Sasa.                                         
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


















Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni)
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Reply-To: sk@sunbim.be ()
Organization: BIM Everberg Belgium
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 13:18:31 GMT

in article <1992Aug20.005426.6859@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> on
Thu, 20 Aug 1992 00:54:26 GMT, George I Ithink because he did
not sign) writes:

George>        I agree. I am makedonien.

  I think you found the soulution to the problem George.

  You are a     M A K E D O N I E N  

  and I am a    M A C E D O N I A N .


Will this satisfy the both sides and
we can live together as friends.

Sasa.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =
= BIM   sa/nv                      tel:    +32 (2) 759.59.25      =
= Research & Development           fax:    +32 (2) 759.47.95      =
= Kwikstraat 4,   B-3078 Everberg,    Belgium                     =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: OMEDEI SUPPORTS MACEDONIA
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:16:47 GMT

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>In article <1643ulINNhna@agate.berkeley.edu> on 9 Aug 1992 21:50:13 GMT
>tsatsaro@emily4.Berkeley.EDU (Konstantinos Tsatsaronis) writes:


> >> Mr. Sasa Konecni,

> >> You cited an article from a Canadian newspaper as an answer to the 
> >> question of why should the Southermost ex-Yugoslav Republic should
> >> be called "Macedonia" .  

> >> Costas Tsatsaronis

>Please tell me which article precisely you have in mind. I have posted
>few articles lately. However, I mostly agree with the articles I post.

 Now we know. He can't even remember what he posts! 

 Hint: How many articles from Canandian newspapers have you posted?

>= Sasa Konecni                     e-mail: sk@sunbim.be           =

---> Panos Tamamidis
^^^^^---------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Attention !!!!!!!  Be aware of the following new viruses:            ^
^ Konecni     virus: Similar symptoms with Mutlu virus                 ^
^ Shopov      virus: Repeats himself, and at the end says "No Regards" ^
^ Sommarskong virus: Doesn't do anything, but you can't get rid of it  ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:33:03 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Aug19.190556.14914@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.214145.7420@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>Mr. Stojanovic has moved this debate from facts to attacks on my person.  He 
>>has apparently run out of arguments...  my response could be long and boring, 
>>because defense against personal attacks usually is, but for the record I'm 
>>obliged to respond.  Sigh...
>
>Pure you.  Excuse to avoid admitting that you tried to 
>lie and got caught.

Actually I wanted to write poor him.  But this might have some
meaning which is correct.  Mr. Loncaric is the one not telling
truth whenever he is out of arguments.  Here, he is claiming 
the personal attack, pretending to be innocent in any wrongdoing
that caused me to claim he is not telling the truth. 

Milan
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7972 soc.culture.greek:7544 soc.culture.europe:7327 eunet.politics:1057 soc.culture.australian:3906
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:45:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BszIo0.28A
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>Macedonia did not have yet a flag at that time. 

 It has now. And do you know what the flag is?  It's Great Alexander's
 emblem, i.e. Vergina's star.  This star has been found in recent (10-15 
 years) excavations of Prof. Andronikos.  These excavations proved
 BEYOND ANY DOUBT the Greekness of Macedonia.

 Now what symbol have Skopjia chosen for their flag? The very same star!!
 This gesture of Skopia prove BEYOND ANY DOUBT their intensions against
 Greek history and land.  If they recognized with the name "Macedonia",
 they will keep falsifying history.

 GREECE HAS TO STOP THEM NOW !!! 

>Sasa.
-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8106 soc.culture.greek:7736 soc.culture.europe:7510 eunet.politics:1079 soc.culture.australian:3963