HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 13 Nov 1992 19:14:41 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: gvh@metrosoft.com's message of Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:03:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.160320.9919@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

   I operate a stand-alone system and pay (quite a lot) for my newsfeed. I  
   don't know how to change over to the new group. Could someone point me at  
   the appropriate document to read, and possibly what section so I don't  
   have to waste a lot of time? This is a sincere request for information  
   from someone that would like to be better educated and not lose contact  
   with a group of interest.


What kind of news system do you run?  What newsreader?  There are
*lots* of them out there.  If my suggestions don't help, please repost
with info that will help someone help you.

Just make sure your feed sends you r.m.m.s.  This is usually (C-news)
governed by your entry in your feed's sys file.  And subscribe to
the new group (commands are newsreader-dependent).

Good luck.

[also mailed]

--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:14:38 GMT
Organization: Xanth Watch

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <1992Nov10.214156.25752@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
>(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>> 
>> >You think all votes for all groups on the net are to be interested in?  
>How  
>> >much time DO you have on your hands?
>> 
>> You only have to read those that pops up in the groups you are reading.
>> I have no problems with that, in fact I have so much spare proposal time 
>> (it's reallly rare that I see RFDs or CFVs in my favourite groups) that
>> I have subscribed to news.announce.newgroups.
>> 

>Point 1: That wasn't the question.

Then why did you ask it?

>Point 2: Other people have said that I should read news.groups and/or  
>news.announce.newgroup. Now you tell me I only have to read what's in the  
>groups I'm reading. Which is it? Which is right? What do the guidelines  
>say? (Hint: they don't).

It's alwayes a good idea to keep an eye on news.announce.newgroup, just to
be informed of the happenings around the net. But you can do just fine
by reading those RFDs and CFVs that pops up in your own groups. And believe
me, most of those are relevant (and their numbers is so small that you'd
have trouble counting how many seconds extra newsreading a day that will
cost you).
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (St. Elmo's Fire)
Subject: Re: "BAD" music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Man in Motion
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:06:17 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov7.214311.2554@metrosoft.com>, gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> I and a number of other people have suggested (and no one responds to  
> these postitive suggestions) that the guideline should be that subject  
> lines for discussions and votes should DIRECTKY state what existing  
> newsgroups they would affect. Is this too difficult? At least it's a  
> suggestion.
> 
> I can't imagine a valid reason for a "no" response to this suggestion.

	Because it's an absurd suggestion.  Reorgs involve many groups; as Rich
has said, simply indicating four of the five votes in the rec.music.makers.*
reorg would have required a subject line of 138 characters.  Why a subject line
that long is a bad idea is an exercise left to the reader.

	Perhaps you're suggesting one CFV per vote?  Then there would have been
five CFVs posted to each affected group, and people would be screaming about
having to wade through them all.  Catch-22.

	Face it.  Choosing not to read a CFV in a group is equivalent to
choosing not to vote.  Choosing not to vote is equivalent to voluntarily giving
up any moral basis for post-vote whining.  (Your right to whine is, of course,
guaranteed; doing so with no basis, however, is justifiably ignored.)

	An alternate, workable suggestion would be to require CFVs containing
more than one proposal to contain "reorg" or "multiple votes" in the subject
line.
-- 
"We want playmates we can own."--Jules Feiffer on marriage                     
  
elmo (morrow@physics.rice.edu,morrow@fnal.fnal.gov)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Subject: Re: Group splits, killfiles...
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:49:48 GMT

In <1992Nov9.185403.2064@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <96769@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
>Kulawiec) writes:
>> add the subject to your news.groups killfile. 
>Hmmm. This would have been a great way to add the rec.music.makers  
>proposal article subjects to your killfile based on the first RFD which  
>didn't affect rec.music.synth.

Nope.  You would still have seen the 2nd RFD, 3rd RFD, 1st CFV, 2nd CFV and
3rd CFV in news.announce.newgroups.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:54:10 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov12.163612.10496@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>Are you guys getting a clue yet as to how high the hurdles are to  
>understanding this process?

An abbreviated history:

Once upon a time, there was no news.announce.newusers.  So documents
like "How to read netnews" were written and widely disseminated: they
were posted, they were sent out with the news software, and so on.

By and large, they were roundly ignored.

But a need to educate the masses on Usenet persisted, and so much effort
(and argument) was expended on writing some clear, concise articles that
explained that basic workings of Usenet to the first-time user.  It was
arranged that these articles would be posted frequently, so that they would
be available when needed.  Some newsreaders were modified to point out
the existence of this group to first-time users.  Many sites archived
these articles locally so that users would have access to them without
even running a newsreader.

By and large, they were roundly ignored.

Various kinds of newsreaders began to supplant the old readnews and vnews.
Some of these had sophisticated searching facilities; some supported
mechanisms like killfiles; some provided hooks to newsgroup descriptions;
and others provided thread-following mechanisms.  All of these were
designed to make participating in Usenet as easy as possible for any
user who ran them.  Great attention was lavished, in particular, on
extensive help facilities and copious documentation.

By and large, they were roundly ignored.

A few years ago, the class of posting known as "Frequently Asked Questions"
began to appear.  These attempted to stem the flow of repetitive discussions
by providing the basic information pertinent to a newsgroup in one
easy-to-find place.  A list of these was created in order to provide
a global index.  Eventually, a newsgroup was created to provide a common
repository for these sorts of postings.

By and large, they were roundly ignored.

After over a decade of Usenet, I think it's become clear that there are
large numbers of people who will not pay attention to important information,
no matter how much effort is put into trying to get it into their hands.
I have come to the conclusion that Usenet is a lot like Unix (which is
not surprising, given its heritage): if you take the time to read the
"manuals" -- *all* the manuals -- you will find it easy to use and will
appreciate its capabilities.  If you do not, you will be hopelessly lost.
There are alternatives, of course: folks who don't want to read Unix
manuals can probably get their work done just fine on a Mac; folks who
don't want to read Usenet manuals can probably do just fine on Compuserve.

---Rsk
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 13 Nov 92 14:51:46 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov13.091154.29970@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>But in the absence of that sort of question and its corresponding
>>answer, completely unfounded speculations (for that is what they are)
>>about each other's mental states simply detract from the discussion.
>>We should all allow everyone to speak for him or herself, and we
>>should not attempt to infer personalities from postings.
>
>Gee...this is going on all around this flamewar...from me and you and
>others. Is this what you really feel? 

Yes, it's what I really feel; I would not have written it otherwise.
I always try to be bluntly honest about exactly what's on my mind --
I don't always succeed, and sometimes when I do, it gets me into
trouble -- but I have decided that being forthright is a Good Thing.

If I have lapsed from the sentiments expressed in the quoted passage
above during this discussion, I apologize for it; it's not intentional,
and I'll try not to do it again.

---Rsk
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:16:05 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov12.110033.44675@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane) writes:
>In <97054@netnews.upenn.edu>, rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>> Someone has already stepped forward to handle the gatewaying
>> to the SYNTH-L mailing list, and has provided a pointer to another
>> person who may also be able to easily handle the job.  It would seem
>> reasonable, given this, that the link between (whatever).synth
>> and SYNTH-L can and will easily be maintained.
>
>According to Jim McIntosh at auvm, Joe McMahon (the listowner of
>SYNTH-L) has requested that the gateway between rec.music.synth and
>his list be terminated. I would not be willing to gateway the list
>without the permission of the list owner.

My goof.  I wrote the lines above after seeing Bob's posting on the
subject.  I then sent him a letter about it, and got back a reply
saying pretty much the same thing as his paragraph above -- in fact,
I posted that reply, with his permission, yesterday.  I should have
made it more clear in that followup article that "easily be maintained"
doesn't appear to be the case (at the moment); or I should have cancelled
my own article when I learned that circumstances had changed.

I'm going to take this portion of the discussion to e-mail so that
we can all "stay in sync" with one another and avoid misunderstandings.
Any confusion brought on by my statement (quoted above) is entirely
my responsibility, and I apologize for it.

---Rsk
From: stimpy+@cmu.edu (Rick)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 11 Nov 92 05:29:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: unix4.721495792.1064.0
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

First, let me say: who the hell is Alan Cabrera??
does he even play netrek? 
does ANYONE agree with what he proposes? I seriously doubt it.
I wish there were a way to press a button to just make this whole
thing go away, but there isn't. So, I've got to read news.groups
for a couple weeks now to see what happens. If this ever reaches
a CFV, it will be a total fiasco. I'd bet money you couldn't
get 10 yes votes. And I know for a fact we can easily  drum up
a couple hundred no votes. Without even trying hard.

Alan: go away. nip this thing in the bud. Don't make yourself
look more foolish than you already have.
Your whole proposal could have been handled SO much better.
When I first read it, I thought is was a joke. Then I noticed
it really *was* crossposted to news.groups! cripes, man, get
a grip. Do you seriously think we're going to allow you to
create and moderate these new groups when most of us don't
even know who you are? As Mojo would say: "Don't THINK so."

There isn't *nearly* enough traffic on r.g.n. to warrant a
split. I'd maybe go along with rec.games.netrek.programmers
but there is a mailing list for programmers already.

This whole thing would be laughable if this guy weren't actually
serious about it. and if you'll notice, we have yet to see a
post in favor of it.

--Rick
"Bronco Netrek Server. You will never find a more wretched hive of
scum and villainy." -- Admiral Kenobi (aka Terence Chang)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin.policy
From: dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 07:27:31 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>>Propose something.  If they aren't USENET, they should be properly
>>gatewayed so that the USENET name change doesn't affect them.
>
>Let's start with a revote. 

Fine.  Issue a request for discussion, then we'll formally discuss it.
Then issue a call for votes, and we'll vote on it.  I think it would be
most appropriate for you to conduct the vote, since you seem to have the
biggest problem with it.
-- 
 davE.  Making the world safe for intelligent dance music.  dave@bradley.edu.
######### David L. Vessell -- Bradley University Computing Services #########
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.misc
From: awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr)
Subject: Re: Claymores
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 02:40:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.061658.7997@bnr.ca> bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash) writes:
>|>Picture of a claymore:
>|>                             O
>|>                              \
>|>                               \           _
>|>/-------------------------------\---------/ \
>|>\-------------------------------/---------\_/
>|>                               /
>|>                              /
>|>                             O
>|>
>|>
>                                                                        
>You are both nuts!  Those pics are no more than 3" long!
>Claymores are WAY bigger than that! :^)

...you need a bigger monitor.... it's over 4" on mine... :-)
>
>On a more serious note, I think you are both specifing the
>requirements of the swords.  The claymore is any "big sword"
>(by def. of the name) and zweihaender is any 2-handed sword
>(also by def of name).  The flamberge is a zweihaender done
>with a kris-style blade.  At the time the swords were popular,
>certain styles of these swords were produced: that does
>not mean any sword not in those styles could not be classified
>as one of those swords.  (eg A claymore could be a zweihaender)
>
>Either I am right about this or I am WAY off base (as usual).

close but no cigar (it's bad for you anyway).  The claymore is
*gaelic* for "big sword", as you seem to know.  That is because it's
the sword that was developed in Scotland.  The Scottish never
developed a "zweihander" style of sword.  The zwiehander is *germanic*
for "two-hander" as you know.  It's the type of sword that was
developed in *that* area (central Europe).

Alan

-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 08:48:18 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov12.071436.5822@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu (Laird Nelson) writes:
>>Were it to pass, would you honor it?  I think not.
>Whatever the outcome of this vote I would indeed honor it. 

Why? After all, it, too, would be decided by a minority of the net.

Color me skeptical, too.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: merchant@davidsys.com (Rukhsana Merchant)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:21:35 PST
Organization: DAVID Systems Inc, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1765@frackit.UUCP>, dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> 
> Is it time for the damn vote yet? This whole discussion is getting
> nowhere.


1) There is still a discussion going on to keep the religion newsgroup
flat, so therefore, it is not time to vote yet.

2)  The RFD  has not determined a need for the group other than the same
people reiterating about what is Ahmadi Islam.

3) Is there a need for this group.  If the claim is that it is Islam,
then there exists already a newsgroup for Islam.

4) The CFV:

	a) The proposed moderator has a conflict of interest.

	b) The attitude shown of proposed moderator is not
	that of a person with integrity.

5) If there is CFV, I would like to suggest an unbaised person
take the CFV.

> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
>  frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
>  vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |


-Rukhsana Merchant
Xref: sparky news.groups:21433 news.admin.policy:345
From: plate@cdsmn.mn.org (Doug Plate)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: A question, a comment
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:40:57 GMT
Organization: Dicomed, Inc.

In article <1992Nov10.185944.28723@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
[...]
>
>Others have noted that this could all have been avoided if Dave Hayes had
>posted a message with a subject along the lines of "Upcoming vote on
>renaming rec.music.synth--read on for more info" to rec.music.synth before
>the vote. I believe he admitted that not doing so was an oversight on his
>part; so it goes. In the future, interested parties would do well to make
>sure that potentially uninformed voting blocs are made aware of the upcoming
>vote. To use John Maynard's popular presidential election analogy, you'll
>notice that the Presidential Election Committee didn't call up registered
>Democrats asking them to get out and vote--the Democratic party did. Those
>who feel strongly about a vote ought to be willing to post an article in an
>effort to raise the awareness of other concerned, but possibly uninformed,
>net denizens.
>
>Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu

As a matter of fact, someone (I can't remember who) DID post a message that
said (to paraphrase): `There's a discussion going on in news.groups about
changing the name of this group.  Look there if you care.'  I saw the message
and that's why I went to news.groups and joined the discussion.  Maybe the
person who posted that helpful pointer could come forward.

Now I feel rather foolish that I've joined this discussion.

Regards,
Doug Plate

-- 
      ()(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)*(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)()
     /                    plate@cdsmn.mn.org                           \
   /         /      Doug Plate Sr.    | "Assume no malice!"   \          \
 (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:25:16 GMT

In article <2B018780.5A49@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence):
> No, but there _is_ some (very low) minimum level of knoweldge required
> to participate in the newsgroup creation process.
> 
The hurdle is a little high, IMO. To you it isn't because you live and  
breathe this stuff.

> >You can't assume that people know things.
> 
> Of course.  And I don't assume any such thing.  All I say is, if
> people _don't_ know things, then that's _their_ fault, not mine.

Couldn't you spend *some* of your time making it easier for those people  
instead of alienating them?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky news.groups:21201 news.admin.policy:289
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:44:52 GMT
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division

In article <1992Nov10.211028.16118@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Usually people vote out of spite (which is also vote fraud IMHO) against
>the instigator.

Is it vote fraud to vote out of spite against a President who opposes
term limits?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:25:43 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab

In <1992Nov5.030317.10383@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>Apparently most of them were not aware of the vote until it was too late.

So they do not read r.m.s?  The CFV *should* have been posted there too.

>How would you like your favorite group to be renamed without the consent
>of anybody in your news group?

a) The newsgroup users are too lazy to vote - tough luck

b) Everybody voted against, but too many other people voted for:
  1. We are too few - tough, we must get others to join
  2. The others were too many - tough, there must be something wrong with
                                the old name, if so many others want it
                                changed.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
From: adc@tardis.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:59:35 GMT
Reply-To: adc@tardis.msu.edu
Organization: Michigan State University

In article 27404@reed.edu, horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde) writes:
> In article <BxIHnn.Cw@uunet.uu.net> adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) writes:
> >This is the Request For Discussion regarding the proposal to split 
> >the newsgroup rec.games.netrek, containing discussion of the game netrek.
> >
> 
> Just a quick question...who died and made you GOD?
 

My reply has been posted to news.groups per the rules specified by the
netnews gods at uunet.uu.net.

I encourage everyone to participate in the discussion!


---
Alan Cabrera				internet:  adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu
Computer Laboratory			phone:     (517) 353-3027
Michigan State University		fax:       (517) 353-9847
514 Computer Center			bitnet:    CABRERA@MSU
East Lansing, MI 48824
Xref: sparky news.groups:20422 rec.music.makers:10746