HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: The goal of an intervention
Date: 6 Sep 92 10:17:33 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Sharon Machlis Gartenberg (sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us) writes:
>However, given the fact that Bush felt it was worthwhile to go to war
>in that case <Kuwait>, I am puzzled by his sudden burst of pacifism with
>regards to the dismemberment of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Either there is a
>principle involved in maintaining international borders -- and the U.S.
>government recognizes Bosnia-Herzegovina as a separate, independent
>nation -- or there isn't, and the U.S. and its allies went to war over 
>oil. I suspect the latter.

According to an article from Vreme, George Bush said the following
a while ago: "Before I send our forces into battle, I want to know
what the beginning, goal and end will be. I don't see any answers
to my questions." I think that very much coincides with own sentiments.

One may claim that the goal for an armed action in B-H is to
resurrect B-H as an independent state, but can someone tell me
what kind of B-H we are to resurrect?
a) A Muslim-Croat state with the Serbs driven out of B-H?
b) A Muslim state with the Serbs and Croats driven out of B-H,
   possibly with some parts sliced off to Croatia?
c) A Muslim-Serb-Croat state, that is like B-H was a Yugoslav
   republic, but now as an independent state.
d) Something else.

I would expect most people find a) and b) unacceptable, but can anyone
say how c) can be enforced with a military intervention? We are probably
able to realize a), as that is a clearly-defined militarily goal. Would
Muslims and Croats start to clash (not unlikely) we can go for b)
instead. But how do we enforce c)? Of course, if we accept that we
more or less permanently have troops in B-H, we could maybe keep
up peace, but would also have failed to reach the goal, since B-H
then hardly would be fully independent.

And d)? Whatever it is it is nothing to go to war with, before we
know what it is.

Some may claim that a) and b) above are just variants of what's
happening today, but at least we are not actively taking part in
it as the alternatives a) or b) would mean.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
"Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
IEEE Std 1042/1987
From: souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Yu
Date: 13 Sep 92 15:17:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: noose.1992Sep13.151738.20128
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <18pqpeINNa6k@aludra.usc.edu> draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic) writes:
>
>7. 19. December 1991: 60 vehicles arrived in the port of
>   Rijeka from Germany.
>

What kind of vehicles? Mercedez Benz or BMW? Maybe Volkswagon? :)
Could be Audi too.  I like Audi.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ohrd!rdowlati@cs.toronto.edu (Ramin Dowlati)
Subject: Re: Canada's voice in Bosnia Conflict (General Lewis MacKenzie)
Organization: Ontario Hydro - Research Division
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 15:08:01 GMT

In article <20135@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.) writes:
>NO! What is needed is political solution. On the other hand we know who is
>even refusing to talk........[stuff deleted]                ^^ ^^^^ 
>
>Nik
>--
Actually, Nik it seems as if only you know who is refusing to talk. Apparently
everyone is talking, but they just can't agree on anything to bring a stop
to the destruction and killings. So we fight on!

-Cheers
-Ramin
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Greece and democracy
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:45:47 GMT

naumoski@cs.ruu.nl (Goce Naumoski) writes:

>Yesterday evening (8 September) from 20.25 to 21.00 (7.25-8pm GMT) 
>on the Dutch television channel one, in "TIJDSEIN", there was
>a story about the Thrace and the Turkish population living there.
>They are called "Greek Muslims" by the Greeks, they have no right to
>call themselves Turks.

You are wrong... The Greeks call them Muslims according to the terms of the
Lauzanne Treaty, signed between Greece and Turkey in 1923, which settled 
the problems of the Christian minority in Turkey and the Muslim minority 
in Thrace.

--r.
PS : Do you think that the Pomaks are Turks?
From: wam@zamir-zg.comlink.de (Wam Kat)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Chrisis
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 12:37:00 MET
Organization: ComLink-Network Germany - For Peace Zagreb
X-Z-Path: ZAMIR-ZG!LINK-ATU!LINK-HH!SHLINK
X-Gateway: US SHLINK [shgate V1.91]

Message forwarded from sarajevo, brought to us by Equil Libre

Chrisis
Conscience of Human Race

International Peace Center
Dobrovoljacka 3 Sarajevo
Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina
tel/fax +38 71 663 730, 38 71 663626

Dear Friends,

As we have informed you, we are on the way of initiating a World
Campaign CHRISIS (Conscience of Human Race - I LOVE SARAJEVO - 
International Support) of interdisciplinary, multi-dimensional and multi-
media character. Since we are not in position to organise large 
manifestations in Sarajevo, neither to communicate by post, phone, e-mail
or fax, we would like to be replaced by synchronisation and coordination
of all international actions of help and support to Sarajevo and Bosnia and 
Herzegovina. Your help and initiative in cooperation with other organisations,
assiociations and inviduals would be invaluable.

We would like your organisational help in:

- Organising simultaneous art, music and theathre events dedicated to the
strugle of Sarajevo and BiH against aggression

- Infostands, workshops, media attention on Sarajevo and BiH's historic
tradition of joint multidimensional living, now being annihilated phsically
by fascist aggression

- Dialogues, workshops on global integrative ethnics being base of human
behaviour in all fields, individual and social

- International help in setting up plans for repatriation of exiles and
refugees (particulary children) now being violently tossed over Europe

- Pressurising governments and European and International organisations
and bodies for setting up air and land corridors to Sarajevo, Gorazde,
Tuzla, Stolac and other cities in BiH, which are now under threat of 
annihilation, along with strong efficient and immediate protection by 
international community

- synchonisation of open letters of different cultural, economic,
educational, social, ecumenic, etc, institutions, along with 
individual letters of support to survival and revivication of
BiH

Either Sarajevo and BiH will die quickly in terrible agony
watched indifferentently through false three-partite spectacles 
or it will become a positive blueprint of global world
conscience at work, a dawn,

faithfully yours,

               International Peace Center

                President Ibrahim Spahic


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Love from ZA-mir-GREB                 tel  : +38-(0)41-214507 (Nights)
Wam                                   email: Wam.Kat@ZaMir-Zg.Comlink.De
Buzanova 23                           tel  : +38-(0)41-422495
41000 Zagreb                          tel  : +38-(0)41-214507 (Prive)
Croatia                               fax  : +38-(0)41-271143
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8535 rec.travel:12971 rec.misc:216
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,rec.travel,rec.misc
Subject: Question about use of Cyrillic alphabet
Date: 6 Sep 92 02:44:00 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Independence
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

I was at the Yugoslavia embassy here in Washington getting
a visa stamp in my passport and I noticed Yugoslavian newspapers
on the table in the lobby. They used the Cyrillic alphabet. Is
this typical? Should I not bother to learn to read
Serbo-Croatian in the Roman alphabet? I'm having enough trouble
memorizing how to =say= commonplace phrases. I wouldn't want to
waste time learning to =read= them in Roman if they don't even
use Roman. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 21:38:39 GMT


dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:

Being Nazi is is not determined by how many poeple you have massacred, but
your philosophy, attitudes and actions towards people, especially your
minorities.  If you had the military power that Nazis had in WWII, there 
is no doubt in my mind that you would have liquidated more than 2 milion
people, and you would'n stop even there, in order to establish youg "Great 
Serbia" as depicted by sick minds of Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts,
with the current president of Yugo, Cosic, as one of the participants.  So 
that is why I compare Serbs to Nazis, and that's why you make me puke.

Zoran Kalenic writes:

> Mr Matic, the above is only a hypothetical, Serbia for one does not have such
> a military power so it is totally irrelevent.

Serbian reason for starting this war is alledged persecution of Serbian 
people outside of Serbia.  The numbers show that most of the persecution
is happening in Serbian areas against non-Serebian people.  So this whole
war that your people are fighting is based on a hypothetical situation 
where Serbs would be persecuted if they didn't defend themselves.  You
don't seem to have a problem with that hypothetical setup, or do you?
All I can say is that I see some hypocricy comming in the way of your
arguments...

Regards,
--- Davor
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Subject: Re: Vera offers thoughts on Macedonia crisis
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:36:03 GMT

sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:


>Vera offers thoughts on Macedonia crisis

> - One of the many interesting people in Bendigo for the recent
>meeting of exchange teachers was Vera Capovska from Skopje in
>Macedonia.

>   Vera is teaching Macedonian to children at Thomastown 
>Secondary College and Preston South Primary School.

(text deleted)

>- Greame Topp, (Bendigo Advertiser)

>Abstralisko Makedonski Nedelnik, 1 Sep 92.

Really, who cares what "Vera" says!  You keep posting ridiculous articles
from a local ethnic paper, as if it were the NY Times!  Do you think this
proves anything?  I won't bother to rebattle to the points raised by "Vera"
as those have been proven wrong several times by different netters.  Please,
stop polluting the network!
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
From: THEO@licra.dn.mu.oz.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Ancient and modern Macedonians
Date: 7 Sep 92 10:10:56 GMT
Organization: Ludwig Institute for Cancer Research

In article <1992Sep6.084805.3141@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
> Goce Naumoski (naumoski@cs.ruu.nl) writes:
>>PS. Ancient Macedonians were no Greeks, but simply Macedonians...DELETED
> 
> I don't care very much whether the ancient Macedonians were Greeks
> or not;

This is a classic understatement. Why don't you read some (since all would 
be impossible with all the volume...) of your postings Erland. You aren't 
exactly the epitomy of an unbiased observer. Yes I know that you do laugh 
at some ridiculous postings in an attempt to appear fair, but you shouldn't 
write things like this (above sentence) - it's pathetic.

> it bears little relevance to the issue of present-day
> Macedonia, but I would like you to clarify your position. Do you
> suggest that the modern Macedonians are related to the ancient
> Macedonians more than any other people in that area?
> 
> -- 
> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
> "Recreation of source code from design documentation can be costly"
> IEEE Std 1042/1987

Theo Mandamadiotis
From: draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Yu2
Date: 7 Sep 1992 01:20:26 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

                    Tanjug agency news on 3rd of September


         YUGOSLAVIA CANNOT BE HOSTAGE TO BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA WAR

    Belgrade, Sept. 3rd (TANJUG) - John Kennedy, a conservative parliamentary
candidate at the last British election, says that the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia cannot be held hostage to the war in the former Yugoslav republic of
Bosnia-Herzegovina, "because it has very little direct influence on it." In an
intervview, published by the Belgrade daily Politika, on thursday, Kennedy said
Yugoslav Premier Milan Panic had made major concessions to the West at the
London Conference. Now is the time to insist on the acceptance of this fact, he
added. If the London Conference truly wishes to achieve success, said Kennedy,
then the West must realize that more should be given to the Government of Prime
Minister Milan Panic, because Panic was right when he said that the Yugoslav
public would simply not allow him to make concessions at the expense of the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Serbs if he got nothing in return. The
delegates of the countries which attended the London conference now realize that
unrealistic solutions which simply reject the legitimate rights of the Serbs
outside Serbia or downgrade them to the status of unprotected minority 'cannot
be accepted', he explained. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the blame
for the conflict cannot be pinned on one ethnic group alone, and pressure must
be exerted on all sides in Bosnia-Herzegovina, including Bosnian Moslim leader
Alija Izetbegovic, which have the power to influence the fighting, said
Kennedy.
From: shi6@chaos.uchicago.edu (Sheldon Shi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong
Subject: Re: News readers from ROT(Re: Hello from news reader in China)
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:52:30 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1992Sep8.171226.19219@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> ghe@nyx.cs.du.edu (George He) writes:
>In article <liqiang.715967803@kramden> liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li) writes:
>>ghe@nyx.cs.du.edu (George He) writes:
>>
>>>I hope CCP crash without bringing China  major dissorder as soon as possible.
>>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>
>>My opinion: it doesn't seem likely. I think China is on the right track now.
>>No form of democracy is going to sustain without the support of a middle
>>class. This middle class is being produced by economic growth.
>
>I have some questions in mind.
>
>To my knowledge, the constitution of PRC states clearly that
>"the People's Representative Assembly, UNDER the guidance of CCP,
>is the highest ruling power of PRC." --- 
>logically self-conflicing, isn't it?
>In other words, CCP is bounded to rule PRC according to this rediculous 
>constitution chapter.
>
>I believe the forming of middle class will certainly change PRC to
>a certain degree. My question is - "How far could this keep on going
>without confronting CCP's interests?"
>
>Sooner or later, CCP will become the road block 
>for mainlanders to become better off.
>In my opinion, the confliction between the CCP and mainlanders who
>want more freedom is inevitable in the future. 
>How could CCP be brought down peacefully?
>
>And at appropriate time, "Will a strong second party be formed 
>to challenge CCP and protect the middle class?"
>
>"Is it possible to modify/abolish PRC's current constitution
>without bring down CCP?"
>
The question should be: How far can (ordinary) CCP members resist
the temptation of becoming a member of middle class?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: ping@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Shiping Zhang)
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's Showdown
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:39:44 GMT

In article <BtyKnw.932@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> I990002@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU (T. Bao) writes:
>
>It is really interesting that Shen Tong's timing to trigger the most
>sensitive nerve between China and US coincided with several big things.

  If the news is true, then it's the CCP who controled the timing.

>His wisdom and calculation was used to the best. Very impressive.
>His sacrifice will definitely trade off: passage of greencard bill,
>endorsement of congresspersons and Democrat's precident candidate.

  Your wisdom could be even more impressive if not with a wrong
  calculation.

>No, he won't sacrifice that much because the US will take care of him
>very well. That's for sure. Masters always take care of their running
>dogs.

  To be able to show your wisdom, you seem have been well taken care of.

>Shen is giving Bush a pair of small, yes, very small, shoes to wear. The
>shoes are so small that Bush is in real miserable situation.

  Probably you should lend him your wisdom to handle the situation.

>                                                             I feel sorry
>for George that even with his well established political skill he may
>still lose his career in the hands of a young democrat from China.

  Seems he just lacks that bit of wisdom of yours.  BTW, why do you
  feel sorry for him?  Why are you afraid he may lose his career?

>                                                                   Who says
>that Chinese Americans are not very good at politics?! Look at the
>new immigrants from China and you will get encouraged.

  You yourself are very encouraging.

>                                                       Some of them
>may get into Clinton's cabinet. If I were Clinton, I would promote Shen
>to be the embassador to Beijing. The reason: Yellow can only be beat
>by Yellow ( Yi3 Huang2 Zhi4 Huang2). ;0

  Unfortunately, to Shen, you are no Clinton.

>Well, it may be a good idea to change my major to political science so that
>I can get some leftover in time. Oh, I should cover up my political
>ambition.

  Want to be the embassador to Beijing?

>          Yes, I am gonna fight for democracy and human rights in China.

  No kidding.

>The most glorious job ever existing in this confusing world.

  Certainly not confusing someone who can identify the most glorious job.

>Democracy fighter, what a beautiful name!

  To someone being well taken care of, it's probably a beautiful name.
  But to people like Shen, it's life, suffering, or death.

>T. Bao

-ping

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: yang-allan@CS.YALE.EDU (J. Allan Yang)
Subject: Let Taiwan alone and develop China first. (Was: F-16's fear?)
Organization: Dept of CS, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:24:29 GMT

 > From: yshuang@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Yongshan Huang)
 > Date: 9 Sep 92 21:21:44 GMT
 > 
 > Why fear F-16 ? One hundred and fifty F-16 surely can not 
 > defend Taiwan. And Taiwanese do not like war.  But I just 
 > don't understand why the govenment in Taiwan want to spend
 > so much money to help Bush's election. So stupit !

Taiwan wants to buy those fighters, no matter who the President of
US is. Taiwan is going to buy Mirage 2000 and possibly Mig-29, too.
Advanced weaponry is needed to protect people in Taiwan from any
force against their will.

People in Taiwan do not want a forced unification with China against
their will. It's just like overseas Chinese students do not want
forced return to China against their will. Do you agree that US
should return any Chinese student back to China by force on the
demand of Chinese government? If no, why do you think Chinese
government has the right to force Taiwanese to unite with her?

If China had a truly democratic government that takes good care of
her people, no Taiwanese is going to fight against uniting with such
a great nation.

 > I think these F-16 can only invoke counter effect to the 
 > piece of the world. We will see.

Taiwan is no aggressive force in the region. China, which refuses to
exclude using force on the unification issue, is a serious threat to
Taiwan's prosperity and new found democracy.

I visited some parts of Guangdong in the winter of 1990. I saw many
positive signs of strong economic growth there. Chinese, Hong
Kongnese, and Taiwanese are helping each other and all are thriving.
This is a good model for cooperation. Let's be patient on the matter
of unification and help each other grow first.

- Allan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: s9874194@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194, YANG, Changqing)
Subject: Re: Chinese culture
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:35:00 GMT

In article <95895@bu.edu>, lix@murray.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes...
>In article <1992Sep13.223119.5922@tamsun.tamu.edu> x0y3510@tamuts.tamu.edu (Xuejun Yang) writes:
>>(deleted)
>>get real, be realistic and objective. Don't apply rich people's 
>>way of thinking on poor people, that's so-called Chinese reality but
>>I doubt if poor is equal to bad culture.      
> 
>Not equal, but being poor itself suggests something wrong in Chinese
>culture. We, especially young people, are responsible to learn from
>western cultures, and find out exactly what is wrong in Chinese one.
> 
>It is not easy, but in 80,000 CSS, there must be someones.
>-- 

China's being poor today is not necessarily the result of Chinese
culture. Look at the history of past two hundred years we should
know that. One of the reason for China's being poor is those
people with so-called superio culture. 
c.q.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: ping@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Shiping Zhang)
Subject: Re: [News] PRC Announces Further Loosened Policies on Overseas Students
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:48:23 GMT

In article <2SEP199217082292@phobos.ucc.umass.edu> s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194) writes:
>
>Hello, everybody:
>
>The following hasnothing to do with politics. It is just a folk story
>that my wife's grandma told her when she was young and not my wife
>and she told me when she became my wife. Now I am telling you even my
>wife is still my wife. Again, it is just for fun, nothing politics!!
>
>========================================================================
>Cat was tiger's master (SHI1 FU4). He taught tiger everything, how to
>eat, how to grab a thing etc. One day, tiger asked cat:
>	
>	"Have you taught me everything you know?"
>
>	"Yes, of course." Cat answers.
>
>Then, the tiger opened his huge mouth and trying to eat the cat. The cat
>quickly climbed to a tree nearby and the tiger could not catch it. So the
>tiger shouted to the cat under the tree:
>
>	"Hey, you big liar, you have not taught me everything! You
>never told my how to climb a tree."
>
>	"No, of course not. Otherwise, you would have eaten me!" The cat 
>answered.
>
>=======================================================================
>Well, that is it. I am not a good tale teller. But I hope you enjoy it.
>
>c.q.

  I heard such story when I was young.  But if the cat really had taught
  the tiger everything else, the tiger would know that he could just
  simply sit and wait under the tree.

-ping

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: bbs@medsys.rn.com (Public BBS System)
Subject: Re: Economical Statistics about Taiwan, S. Korea, China
Reply-To: bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System)
Organization: Med-Systems, Kingsport, Tennessee
Date: 06 Sep 1992 12:09:26 GMT

In article <65500084@acf3.NYU.EDU> yangze@acf3.NYU.EDU (Ze Yang, , , ) writes:
>
>Does taiwan deserve too much pride on the economic development?
>The USA feeded them up.
>

Would you please show some numbers to back up your claim? Thanks.

Chou1

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: gang@ms.uky.edu (Gang Li)
Subject: Re: F-16's fear?
    <1992Sep11.181755.4623@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:30:11 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang) writes:

>Do you imply that a small and weak country should stay weaker and a
>strong country should become stronger, so that the world peace can be
>maintained because the strong country can do whatever it wants to do and no
>other countries can stand to against it.

>Yi-Chieh

Yea, sell some A-bombs to both Iraq and Kuwait.
And Iran, Leebia(?), Kuba, (not Vietnam now), ....... you name it.