HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vkunch@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Virginia P Kunch)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
Subject: Re: compensation
Date: 21 Jul 92 16:28:31 GMT
Distribution: alt.wolves
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

In article <Jul.20.15.26.51.1992.26939@ocean.rutgers.edu> johnb@ocean.rutgers.edu (Dog Jones) writes:
>It seems to me that the wolf 'control' programs are disturbingly illogical.
>Why does the 'eye for an eye'  ideology prevail?  Will killing a wolf
>for allegedly killing livestock solve everybody's problems?  What's the deal 
>with compensation for livestock losses?  Also, has any rancher attempted
>to protect their livestock by using guard dogs?  
>
>  
>                                    JohnnyB
>                                    johnb@ocean.rutgers.edu 

Hi! This is in reply to questions about problems with reintroduction
posted recently on the network (sheesh!  what grammar!)

As far as I know (from a fairly recent PBS special whose name escapes me), one of 
the major drawbacks of the compensation process is that ranchers have to PROVE
that their animal was killed by a/several wolf/wolves.  This, of course, entails
finding the carcass if there's even anything left and proving to the feds, once
they get out there, that it wasn't wild dogs, yotes, etc.  As we are all aware,
the government sometimes kills us with kindness in the form of red tape.  
Similarly, some of these people can't wait months for reimbursement.  (Please note,
just to be clear, that I am not defending their position, merely restating it).

Also, as far as I know, an animal that has been caught raiding livestock is 
relocated the first time, then put down if caught a second time.  Still, this
is not enough.

Regarding guard dogs, few ranchers use them and I don't really know why.  
Breeds such as maremmas and Anatolian Shepherd's have proven their weight
in gold in such matters, especially if they are only faced with a lone
wolf, as might be more likely to try the easy prey of cattle, because 
perhaps it's been run out of the pack.  In any case, they come highly 
recommended from people who have used them.

There was a great article about the ninemile wolves in October 1991 Outside
magazine.  A book about the group has subsequently been written, but I'm
not sure it's been released yet.

One other thing not related to this topic in particular:  Has anyone thought
of starting a newsgroup for hybrid owners, maybe a setting to discuss 
behavior problems, pros and cons, etc.?  Jus' askin'....

-g. kunch
vkunch@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: jegm@cody.esd.sgi.com (Jim Morris)
Subject: Wolf Art
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:56:40 GMT


I have a catalogue of art by Marquerite Fields. Some of the prints
depict some very moving Wolf/Native American motifs. One in Particular
is called "A tear for tomorrow", which shows the head of a wolf howling,
With a very faint background of a Native American, and in the mist
is the outline of a city. There is a tear in the eye of the wolf and NA.

If anyone is interested in seeing the Wolf related pictures in her
catalogue, I have had her permission to scan them and post them.
To reduce potential net bandwidth, I will E-Mail the relevant
scans to anyone who requests them. If there is too much demand I
will put them on an ftp accessible site.

Jim
--
Jim Morris, Email: jegm@esd.sgi.com  Voice: (415) 390-5136
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: amazon@annexia.esd.sgi.com (Stormwind)
Subject: Howling Animals at Lake Tahoe?
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:35:00 GMT

last october i spent a few days up at lake tahoe.
i'd never been up there before, and it's a very 
beautiful place, although it's sad to see so many
trees dying from beetle infestation.

at any rate, the second night we were up there,
about 11 pm i very, very faintly heard three howls
that reminded me a lot of my departed hybrid in
terms of tone and octave break.  i had a very hard
time believing that there would be wolves in as
popular a resort spot as lake tahoe, so i'm wondering
what else might produce a wolflike howl up there
instead?

				stormwind

				hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: goldsman@cc.gatech.edu (Michael G. Goldsman)
Subject: Re: Scandinavian wolves (& some emotion on hybrids)
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:13:54 GMT
X-Posted-From: ottawa.cc.gatech.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <CMM.0.90.2.711742817.jonnya@butleren.ifi.uio.no> Jonny Axelsson <jonnya@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>The Scandinavian wolf is not, yet, extinct. There are some 10 wolves
>left in the border area between Sweden and Norway, but they are in
>severe danger. The Norwegian sheep farmers have the stated goal to
>exterminate the race. While wolves are a totally protected species,

Boy, those marauding 10 wolves are SURE a threat to their way of life..

My sister and her husband were in Sweeden two years ago, and
they actually saw wolf pelts for sale.   They were going to buy me
one just the freak me out an totally piss me off, but luckily
the prices were too high for the joke.

I cannot imagine that the pelts were NEW.  Maybe they were imported from 
the USSR or Finland...  or maybe they weren't really wolf pelts.


Is there any organized protest against the wolf policies?
What are environmental groups doing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Goldsman              __o          o__      o__      o__      o__    
36004 Ga Tech Station    _ \<,_        _.>/ _   _.>/ _   _.>/ _   _.>/ _   
Atlanta, Georgia 30332  (_)/ (_)      (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_)
begin 600 mikeskey.pub
MF8X ZAA:*@AG;VQD<VUA;MX#Y\YJH.AUL%\6;SRX-DN*(L=DZ6B)L]FK,"W=
M=M*D*SE]!5CAMC<7T Y5ZMO CV_L/*A+P!L"CE>F4E6K1P.[)Z%6I)@$M_I<
M2-L>:-]*PXH 70_R)Z^HD:Q!1LA;$DL6\I3SJZ/%TB& )A]%NL$2UI.R;@'W
*;AEF;KPY+P4 $0_R
end
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind)
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:03:29 GMT

(william.l.millios) writes:
>All the talk about the WHs, and Joe Public/Voter, and such...
>
>I am having a devil of a time finding a place to live that permits
>dogs - people have this notion that *all* dogs bark, and chew, and
>pee on walls, and ...

...have fleas, and...

>I explain that I'm enrolling my dog in obedience classes...
>
>"Oh, she's not obedient already?  Well, I don't want a disobedient
>dog in *my* house..."
>
>How about that one, folks...

yeah?  well, when my iguana was still
alive, the apartment complex that would
let me keep him demanded a $500 pet
deposit because their "expert veterinarian"
back east claimed that "iguanas can cause
just as much damage as a medium sized
dog or cat".  nevermind the fact that 
iggy was never let out of his cage.

		stormwind

		hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: srlee@beta.lanl.gov (Stephen R Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:38:32 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <1992Jul29.215657.6960@cbfsb.cb.att.com> millios@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (william.l.millios) writes:
>
>All the talk about the WHs, and Joe Public/Voter, and such...
>
>I am having a devil of a time finding a place to live that permits
>dogs - people have this notion that *all* dogs bark, and chew, and
>pee on walls, and ...
>
>I explain that I'm enrolling my dog in obedience classes...
>
>"Oh, she's not obedient already?  Well, I don't want a disobedient
>dog in *my* house..."
>
>How about that one, folks...
>
>Bill

I had a dog throughout my university career, which involved moving
from one place to another.  I had difficulty finding places that
would permit dogs as well.  He was a little 12 lb mutt I got at
the pound (by the way, he is now 11 and doing great).  The people
I talked to typically had been through bad experiences with pets
and idiot owners.  What helped me was a letter from previous land-lords
stating that I was a good tenant, the dog was a good, clean dog, and
that he or she had no problem with me or my dog.  This helped me out.
I usually had to leave a larger deposit than a non-dog person, and
not everyone would accept me, even with my letter(s).  I remember one
place in Kansas that required me to leave *exactly* the correct ammount
of money to have the place fumagated when I leave (for fleas).  I
did wind up staying there (it was a house I rented), and I did not mind 
having the place fumagated when I left (I mean it seemed reasonable
from their stand point).

No question, it was not easy, and required more searching around than
non-dog owners had to do.  The problem here, as was pointed out by the
WH people in their posts, is moron owners that make the going tough
for the rest of us.  I run into similar things at sled dog races.  I
am always *very* careful to leave the race site and my stake out spot
*cleaner* than it was when I got there.  I travel with all equipment
needed to completely clean up after my dogs.  The same is true for
hotels I stay at with the dogs.  Why?  Well, it is the right thing to
do, naturally, and in the case of sled dog races, I want to be invited
back.  I don't want sponsors to hear from land owners "Boy, those
sled dog races sure made a mess of my property."


-- 
============================================================
Stephen R. Lee                 | 
OooWoo Racing Kennel           | I'd rather be driving sled
E-Mail: srlee@beta.lanl.gov    | dogs.
Xref: sparky alt.wolves:28 rec.pets.dogs:9154
From: hunter@work.nlm.nih.gov (Larry Hunter)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs & Renting (was: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ)
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:00:49 GMT
Organization: National Library of Medicine


Bill Millios writes:

  I am having a devil of a time finding a place to live that permits dogs -
  people have this notion that *all* dogs bark, and chew, and pee on walls, and
  ...

As a long time dog owner and renter, I can relate.  My suggestions:

1. Find a private landlord.  Corporate management types just want to CYA and
   have no detectable human feelings.

2. Get renter's insurance that covers damage to the property.  It's always nice
   to be able to tell a prospective landlord that you have insurance to cover
   anything the dog might do.  And it is a routine piece of almost all renter's
   policies.  It's a good idea to have the insurance for other purposes anyway,
   and it's relatively cheap.

3. Offer the landlord some kind of inducement; an extra security deposit,
   $10/month extra rent, anything.  We installed a good fence at one place,
   which made life easier for us, and improved the value of the property.  Did
   cost more than $1000, though.

4. Ask about the dog relatively early in the negotiation process.  You might as
   well know that a landlord is dead set against dogs before you get your heart
   set on a place.  

It is definitely a challenge.  Good luck!

					Larry
--
Lawrence Hunter, PhD.
National Library of Medicine
Bldg. 38A, MS-54
Bethesda. MD 20894
(301) 496-9300
(301) 496-0673 (fax)
hunter@nlm.nih.gov (internet)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: tpehrson@javelin.sim.es.com (tim clinkenpeel)
Subject: wolves
Reply-To: tpehrson@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:36:43 GMT

i saw one once and it was howlin'.

the end.


-- 
------+- acceptance not condemnation.  rehabilition not incarceration -+------
i exclusively represent myself.  WARNING: my messages are offensive to morons!
|`````````` for every grain of sand that is washed up on the land '''''''''''|
|_____ there's another mermaid smiling and another searching fisherman ______|
Xref: sparky alt.wolves:11 rec.pets.dogs:9006
From: jbs@korova (jacques)
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: commies, etc
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 00:49:29 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind

The US isn't quite as tolerant towards fringe groups as, say, the 
Netherlands. The price of political obnoxiousness is a swift, sharp snub.

On the other hand, most Revolutionary Workers I've run into haven't 
exactly been living advertisements for the wonderful regime to come after 
Amerika Pig Capitalism is overthrown. It's a shame that Hollywood/PTA 
nightmare scenarios are a LOT more colorful (Invasion USA, The Red 
Menace, etc) than the more likely result of a revolution. especially 
here. I guess it says something that even America's fears about life 
under the Red Yoke were more grandiose than the actual threat. BTW, I 
read a long time ago that there was a special episode (never aired) of 
"Father Knows Best," in which Buddy wakes up in post-Revolutionary 
America. Ihope I'm not confusing this one with the one in which the local 
church has been converted into a Museum of Communist Progress (did you 
know that a Russian invented the telephone?). Anyway, this special 
episode was reputedly shown only to PTA groups in the 1950s. Anyone else 
heard this one?

--Comrade Fred Jones

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: psrjd@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: RE: Education as revolution
Date: 25 Jul 92 01:20:20 GMT
Reply-To: psrjd@acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks

In article <1992Jul24.234613.1@lure.latrobe.edu.au>, socwk@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes...
>No one is an island!  This is individualist crap.
> 
>			                     Yours, Brief respite. 

In reference to?

No one may be an island, but they can be dead weight.  A person who relies
purely on the support of others without trying to improve him/herself is a
burden on society.
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
From: moncrg@iear.arts.rpi.edu (gregory d moncreaff)
Subject: Re: Ruling Class
Organization: the committee for asethetic deletions
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:03:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.172516.19940@leland.Stanford.EDU> miballar@leland.Stanford.EDU (Michael Ballard) writes:
>"The wealth of a household, or net worth, is what it owns (including stocks
>and bonds, housing and other real estate, checking and savings accounts,
>and so forth) minus what it owes in debt (including mortgage loans, credit
>card balances and business loans)."
>
>"By 1989, the top 1 percent (834,000 households with about $5.7 trillion
>of net worth) was worth more than the bottom 90 percent of Americans
>(84 million households, with about $4.8 trillion in net worth)."
>
>Information printed in the April 21, 1992 issue of the "New York Times"
>on page one as culled from the "Federal Reserve's triennial Survey of
>Consumer Finances".

do you have any mobility statistics? what percent of that top 1% was
in the top 1% last year, 5 years ago, 10 years ago?
-- 
gregory d moncreaff dorsai@iear.arts.rpi.edu dorsai@rpi.edu 
	rensselaer polytechnic institue troy ny
	chelmsford ma
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
From: ttj@doe.carleton.ca (Tomas Janacek)
Subject: Correction
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:35:19 GMT

Sorry - I naturally meant Mr. Berkman - I apologize for my mistake.

		Bye
					Thomas Janacek
From: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: Re: commies, etc
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:50:24 GMT
Reply-To: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Originator: curtis@c00127-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu




<with Communists.  The very concept denies the basic human desires of
<competition, success=reward, and individuality.


Um, "basic human desires"?  better qualify that, or at least tack on the basic
human desire to help other humans (I'm afraid it's genetic...)

Besides; even if these are the magic three or four "desires" (so quickly confusd
with "needs"),  I see no sign of capitalism achieving these.  We are the mule
following the carrot. Success?  BILL COSBY?  Is having a Mercedes a basic human
desire?

	If there ever were "basic human desires" they were based upon
environmental need -- not a side effect, but evolutionary reason.  Technology
(yes the old hack) removes the need to live in the environment -- therefore, it
should remove the desires -- but the desires remain -- the desires spin into 
themselves, unsupported by any sort of life-and death reality, unsatisfied
with that mercedes, unsatisfied _always_, because the language of satisfaction 
is dead -- we are trapped like rats in the traps we unwittingly constructed.
We will all experience some difficulty when entering the post-biological
age.  I plan on being VERY difficult myself. 

	The argument for desires also becomes interesting in that the desires
that support the propagation of the value-production system are the cherished
desires in the media of the value-production system, whereas the other desires
are moved into the area of taboo, censorship, and eventually, illegality.  Other
desires?  Well, any and all of the sexual (non-productive) desires, just as a 
start -- really, individuality has to get pulled down too, doesn't it?  
Individuality is the ultimate destroyed desire, at once cherished and condemned,
completely controlled, whatever the case.

This is no rational argument, or at least, not a good or full one like you'd
probably like.  Aint gotthe time.  I've got work to do, money to make.  
As much as I'd like to continue, I CANT.





 This is an old story in a just-like-new world of cowards.


Curtis. 
--
Newsgroups: 
Distribution: world
Followup-To: 
From: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu (Abba Jones)
Reply-To: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu (Abba Jones)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
From: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: Alan Freedman
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:37:59 MDT
Followup-To: alt.society.revolution 
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: world 

In article <ttj.711775729@kehleyr> ttj@doe.carleton.ca (Tomas Janacek) writes:
>Re ..political prisoner...
>
>I am sorry but I find it unacceptable to call Mr.Freedman a political prisoner.
>Only the person that is being arrested because of his/her IDEAS and beliefs
>may be called a political prisoner.
>
>Anyone, who commits a crime is a criminal regardless of the motivation.
>(That includes Mr. Mandela, too).

But ALL political criminals commit "crimes".  Like the "crime" of writing a
book that is critical of the government, the "crime" of participating in a
demonstration, or the "crime" of burning a flag.  There are also the cases
where the person broke no law but was either framed or arrested for a rarely
enforced law (e.g. if a typical Joe doesn't register for the draft in the U.S.,
he will not be punished.  If he publically says that he is refusing to register,
he will be punished).  Then there are the cases where some gets a stiffer
penalty because of their political motivations. (hypothetical e.g. someone 
throws a water balloon at the president and is convicted of attempted 
assassination).

>It is simply because no gov't ever may criminalize ideas (as happened many
>times). And by the same token - any violent crime is unjustifiable by any
>idea (again very commonplace).

Which means that the Boston Tea party was vandalism/riot, the American 
revolution was mass murder, and the Tiananmen Square protestors were 
tresspassers.  And everyone involved was a criminal and should have been
punished accordingly.  (not attacking this idea, just making sure that this
is what you mean)
-
sig?
-
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
From: sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold)
Subject: re: alan freedman
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:23:55 GMT
Distribution: alt.society.revolution
Reply-To: sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold)
Organization: Colorado State U. Center for Computer Assisted Engineering.

In article <OSIRIS.92Jul22114315@monk.mit.edu>, osiris@athena.mit.edu writes:
> ttj@doe.carleton.ca (Tomas Janacek) writes:
> > Anyone, who commits a crime is a criminal regardless of the motivation.
> > (That includes Mr. Mandela, too).
> 
> what about people who dodged the draft, or openly burned their draft
> cards?  When they were thrown in jail were they political prisoners or
> criminals.  I would consider them political prisoners because they
> were put in jail for following their ideas and beliefs.

	You're saying that if someone merely follows their ideas and beliefs,
they're political prisoners?  In that case, what prisoner is not a
political prisoner?
	A common theif believes (at least, often believes) that he or she is
justified in stealing.  Yet he or she deservedly goes to prison, and I
wouldn't call him or her a political prisoner.
	In the case of the draft, I oppose it because it is coercive toward
people who have not violated the rights of life, liberty or property. 
In my opinion, this is invalid coercion.  But I still wouldn't call a
draft-dodger a political prisoner.
	To me, a political prisoner is one who is imprisoned merely for
holding, and expressing, a given belief.  If you're imprisoned because
you are a Nazi or a Communist, for example, you are a political prisoner.

Steve
From: socwk@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: RE: Education as revolution
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:46:13 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

No one is an island!  This is individualist crap.

			                     Yours, Brief respite.
From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter)
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution
Subject: Futility and Flame
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:47:14 GMT
Organization: Stellar Enterprises

Okay, if you intend to flame for this, basically don't bother; I'm cynical
enough to be ammused but not very interested.

	I am a young physicist looking at the world from a very naive standpoint.
I am interested in why America is such a bad or tyranical place? I have
seen politics as close as many could ever hope to get, and just see a
bucnch of people no more burgious(sp?) than the next people, but just
lacking any logical sense. Basically from where I see it; the world will
suck for quite a while in most ways, and until our present stagnation is
eased by the conquest of space, see little moral point in not just
supporting the America, cause though misused as all good ideas are; I don't
see anybody coming up with anything better. Query: isn't America's
Government, its FBI, it everything made up of us all? comments... dann

___________________________________________________| Stellar Enterprises*	 
     	       	
"I know that one is left. And that once you        | private space explo...
figure out that, then the other hard is your right.| 	 Pres: dann Cutter
Then basically all you have to do is make a choice.|"because Space IS the 
But the question is, how do you figure out that    |   Final Frontier!"
first part." dann Cutter
dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu|
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.society.civil-disob,soc.bi,soc.motss
From: sourada@iastate.edu (Steven D Ourada)
Subject: Re: Ruling Class
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:56:51 GMT

Amount of money owned (or even stocks, bonds, land, etc.) is not the
ultimate measure of the value of a person. It's not even close.
And money doesn't even make you a ruler.

                     Steven Ourada


-- 
-----------------
Steven Ourada  Member of the Students for Electronic Freedom
Ask me how Iowa State University is censoring my Usenet access!
sourada@iastate.edu     "can't casts no shadow" -- cummings
Newsgroups: alt.society.revolution