HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:48:48 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

I think the discussion on this thread illuminates an issue
that underlies this group. Some people are training for speed
and racing and others are training for conditioning. Also,
some training methods that are appropriate for 18-year-olds
are inappropriate for 50-year-olds. All of that is fine,
there's plenty of room for diversity, but it means that
people are preaching at each other without understanding
these different circumstances and different needs. For
instance, I would never use a pull buoy because I am
45 and a pull buoy just makes it easier for me to work
out. But since my aim is conditioning, I don't want to make
it easier. If I were 20, I certainly would work out with a
pull buoy (and I did when I was 20). Whether to use fins
or paddles is also related to your age, condition, and objectives.
I see people using these devices whom I am sure are not benefitting
from them; that doesn't mean that some other people won't. I
sometimes kick without a kickboard, but usually only when I
am in very good condition. Mostly I kick with a kickboard so
I can finish that part of my workout. If I were still competing
in Master's swimming, I'd do more sprints on short intervals.
Since I'm not, I try to repeat longer distances.

The important point is to understand your objectives and
your limitations and to design a workout program that
maximizes your objectives without violating your limitations.

Steve Goldfield
From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Physics of Drafting
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:30:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: miser.STEVEV.92Sep13123044
Organization: University of Oregon Chemistry Stores

Although there may be net movement of water backwards, the water
that is being forced backwards is not generally in the same plane
as the wake.  Since most power comes from the arm stroke, and the
power from the arm stroke is mostly applied away from the body,
there can still be a region behind the swimmer's feet where water
is effectively being dragged behind the swimmer.  You seem to be
treating a swimmer like a speedboat, where the thrust is being
generated directly behind the boat; a swimmer is more like a
rowboat where thrust is being generated away from the body of the
boat.

I don't have any experience, though, whether it is any better to
ride someone's bow wave than to draft directly behind them.
--
Steve VanDevender 	stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
"Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: watanabe@milton.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe)
Subject: bibliography
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: 'usa'
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:50:10 GMT

Is there a faq list for this group?

Also, I have looked at the library and there is an 
overwhelming number of books on swimming. Would someone
be able to post a list of "recommended" books on
training for fitness?

Thank you.

-Larry Watanabe watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu
From: rchun@banting.bio.uci.edu (Rene Chun)
Subject: Summer Sanders Medals
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Reply-To: rchun@banting.bio.uci.edu (Rene Chun)
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Distribution: usa
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:44:01 GMT

If my memory serves me correctly, Sanders won her gold in the 200m
butterfly, silver in 200m IM and bronze in the 400m IM.  Yet, I read
that she won 4 medals.  Did I get the events mixed up?


Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
From: tomas@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas J. Monica)
Subject: Re: Summer Sanders Medals
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 19:18:44 GMT

In article <2AA81EF1.15200@news.service.uci.edu> rchun@banting.bio.uci.edu (Rene Chun) writes:
>If my memory serves me correctly, Sanders won her gold in the 200m
>butterfly, silver in 200m IM and bronze in the 400m IM.  Yet, I read
>that she won 4 medals.  Did I get the events mixed up?
>
>
You forgot the medley relay (200 I think)

tom


-- 
Porpise: run, bike, swim, make cookies


"long distance runner, what you holding out for?"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Aquajogging - Bogus or Legit ??
From: rule@kenyon.edu
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:22:23 -0500
Organization: Kenyon College

In article <1244@tekgen.bv.tek.com>, brucec@tekgen.bv.tek.com (Bruce Cheney) writes:
> I am a dedicated Master's swimmer, triathlete, and
> runner, just to give you my perspective. I currently
> have an eye injury which isn't serious, but means I
> don't want to get my eyes wet. I still wanted to
> get in the water, so at first I thought I would just
> kick.  But then I thought: "Why not TRY Aquajogging?"
> 
> I've always sneered (privately) at Aquajoggers. Publicly,
> I've tried to gently get them to swim with the Master's
> team.  I figure you can't legitimately criticize something
> if you haven't tried it, so I strapped on a belt, jumped in,
> and started jogging.  Here's my impression:
> 
> I could not get my heart rate up to my training zone. I feel
> like I get a good workout at 170 or so beats/min.  The best
> I could do with Aquajogging was 120 no matter how much I
> tried.
> 
> My legs COULD feel the workout. I haven't been running lately so
> I'm not in the best running shape, but I did feel that I was
> exercising my legs some.
> 
> I felt more 'waterlogged' than I do swimming. Particularly my hands
> and fingers were very wrinkly.
> 
> Conclusion:  It's OK for a remedial exercise. Bogus - NOT, but intense - NOT
> too. I will probably try it again for variety, but I won't become
> an Aquajogger fanatic.  You might like to try it for grins.
> 
> Bruce Cheney


Bruce,
	Our Cross country team does aqua jogging as a warmdown, as well as a
set workout.  It's definetely NOT bogus.  Seriously, if you do not want to get
your eyes wet, put on a life preserver and jog in the deep end.  Also the
football players use it in combination with a power rack to help build up speed
when they aren't able to run on the field due to injuries.  You might try that
if you are able to get a hold of a power rack
	John
From: lawson@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (thomas.lawson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:32:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <18onvgINNob5@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) writes:
>> He, therefore,
>> concluded that it was pointless to use a pull buoy if you
>> are over 30 or so.
>
>Am I allowed to disagree with the great Doc? ;-)
>
>Maybe it's pointless in his book, but I think it has value if only
>for variety.  It can get mighty boring out there...

You know, whenever I need a lot of variety, I use all the toys at the
same time!!  Even if you don't have fins or gloves, you can have fun using
the kickboard AND pull-buoy  :)

Tom Lawson 1986 USMS All American
Masters Coach 5 of last 10 years.
From: schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Various discussions on swimming/group
Date: 11 Sep 1992 00:13:41 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Santa Clara Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsceo.scd.hp.com

luebke5317@iscsvax.uni.edu (Phil Luebke) writes:
> 3) A question pertaining to "Swimming World" : 
> Is it just me, or does anyone else feel unsatisfied when they get done with
> each issue?  Granted, there's not a WHOLE lot you can write about swimming, but
> for the subscription price, I want more.

I didn't catch the name of it (I'm hoping someone else out there can
help), but somebody from the Olympic Club (a San Francisco based
club - unaffiliated with the Olympics) is putting out a newsletter
on swimming.  The issue from the Olympics seemed pretty good.  Lots
of records and stats, comparisons between personal bests and trial
and Olympic times, notes on warmups and amazing sets (how about 10 X
200 M on 2:45 holding 2:00 - guess who did that?).  Nothing on
technique that I saw.
From: fog@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Larry Fogelquist)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:27:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming

Thank you Peder and finally, thank you Tom.  

I, for one, appreciated your comments.  First, I think I'll try to 
get back in the water using the fins.  I've always been a little
embarrassed to swim with fins even when recovering from injuries.
Maybe, it's time to reevaluate that.

A few comments on your responses...

Regarding fins:

I too, get thrashed when I swim hard with fins however, I can't
seem to translate that into a speed improvement when I take the fins off.
I've pretty much given up on fins because they seem to erode any
mental toughness that I've developed.

Regarding pull bouys:

I definitely go faster with a bouy on.  Because of that,
I'm convinced that I have a stroke or kick defect.  However, except
for a little crossover with my right arm, no one has been able to 
see it.  I'm beginning to think that it's just because I'm old.

Regarding the importance of the kick:

I feel compelled to point out that Ernie Maglisco in his book 
'Swimming Faster' doesn't seem impressed with the propulsive
input of the kick.  If I'm interpreting the text correctly, it
seems that he believes that the kick is primarily important in 
counter balancing the stroke and keeping a proper body orientation
in the water.  He, of course, agrees that the kick is important
in the sprint and the last bit of a distance race.

And Peder, 25 seconds for a 50 kick!  Wow!  That's pretty damn
impressive.  I've never been able to break 35.  And that was for
50 yards with a flip turn at the wall (double asterisk).

Regarding paddles:

I would love to use them.  The only improvement that I can trace
to using a training aid (apparently my use of the term 'swim toy'
has offended some people) came from using paddles.  However, I'm also
sure that this is what started this injury cycle that I'm in.  For
that reason, I've stopped using them.  Again, this is probably 
because I'm old.  Incidently, I always remove the wrist strap from
my paddles as you guys had suggested.

I also use paddles for stroke correction.  When I think that my stroke
pattern is going South, I'll put the paddles on for a little while, 
then take them off and try to pull like I did when I had them on.  
This seems to help especially on the Catch which I often neglect.

Finally, I must say that I've been getting a lot of mail recently.  
It's getting kind of scary to look into my incoming mail.
Everyone (with one exception - thanks mom) thinks that I'm a real 
bonehead.  Well, I probably am.  But I am harmless.  I don't 
understand why almost everyone has been so hostile.  It's like I've
violated some sacred taboo or something.  Please forgive me for I
knew not what I was saying.  I won't ever, ever say anything bad about
any "training aid" again.  I'm sorry.


Larry Fogelquist
wanna-be
etc.
From: schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming
Subject: Re: Paddles, Pull-bouys, Fins and Gloves
Date: 11 Sep 92 00:07:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Santa Clara Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsceo.scd.hp.com

> He, therefore,
> concluded that it was pointless to use a pull buoy if you
> are over 30 or so.

Am I allowed to disagree with the great Doc? ;-)

Maybe it's pointless in his book, but I think it has value if only
for variety.  It can get mighty boring out there...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
From: 890491g@dragon.acadiau.ca (Don Graves)
Subject: Re: Fickle Edmonton Fans(Was Re: Damphouse)
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:17:05 GMT

Cory Houston writes:

>If this stubble jumper from Toon-town new anything about what was going on in
>Edmonton, he would realize that the people are not boycotting the Oilers, but
>rather their selfish, egotistical owner Peter Pocklington. He lost a lot of
>popularity when he traded away Gretzky (it all started when he traded away Paul
>Coffey, but the ignorant fans blamed Coffey), but in the last few years the
>problem has compounded by letting other players go because he is too *cheap* to
>pay their salaries.Trading Messier for a whiner in Nicholls was the final

	Also, the fact that Pete was too cheap to buy all of the players
real rings didn't help matters either.  He is extremely selfish - the next
Harold Ballard.

>straw, and now the Oiler dressing room is starting to sound like the Leafs
>(with one exception: they still win!!!)

	Hey, now,  Ballard is gone and good things are happening in TO
(finally).
-- 
--
Don Graves
Acadia University, Wolfville, N.S. Canada
don.graves@dragon.acadiau.ca || 890491g@ace.acadiau.ca
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
From: dao@d62iggy.mitre.org (David A. Ondzes)
Subject: Re: Bruins and fighting
Reply-To: picasso@bass.bu.edu
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:01:57 GMT


>So when did Harry change his stripes? Why? Is this just a pile of 
>bullshit to win over the officials and/or league?

	I think Harry realizes that times are changing and that league
need a big TV contract to prosper and feels that they have a better
chance at getting it when fighting is out of the game.
	Some else also mentioned they can't imagine the Bruins playing
without "intimidating" the other team ? Intimidation and fight can
be two different things. You can intimidate someone by playing the
body and finishing your check without fighting. This is what the
Bruins new coach Brian Sutter will try to do this year. He wants the
Bruins top play a real physical game so team will not look forward
to coming to the cozy little Garden.

David
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Monday, 14 Sep 1992 19:02:47 EDT
From: <IO20866@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
Subject:    Caps schedule needed

  I would like a copy of the Wasington Capitals schedule, would you please post
it here, or send it to me through E-mail. Any response would greatly be
appreciated
From: pl16+@andrew.cmu.edu (Peter Stephen Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
Subject: Question about players
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:37:16 GMT
Organization: Junior, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Does anyone know the status of:

Jari Kurri
Tomas Sandstrom
Joe Nieuwendyk
John MacLean


Thanks,
Pete
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:37:32 -0400 
From: Gary James Patalsky <gp2f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re:Lindros


I don't know about a broken jaw, but every goon in the NHL will be
looking to take a shot at Lindros.  Expect many players to test Lindros
with both physical and emotional abuse in attempt to get him off of his
game or out of the game.  Although he probably can withstand such abuse
(and give his fair share out), he will be the a target of many players. 
It will be interesting to see how he handles the situation.  
Organization: H&SS Dean's Office, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 08:18:32 -0400 
From: Anna Matyas <am2x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Penguins' training camp


The Pens held their first of three public practices yesterday with
their usual training camp tournament.  The roster is split into four
teams.  I won't give the entire rosters but here's how the veterans
were distributed:

Game One:
*Lemieux, Tocchet, Barrasso, K. Samuelsson
*Errey, McEachern, Jennings, Priestlay, Stanton, Wregget
Game Two:
*Stevens, Francis, Leach, Chychrun
*Loney, Tippett, Jagr, Paek, Murphy

I stayed for the entire seven hours.  My intention was just to watch 
Game One but Francis was playing in the second game and I wanted to
see him.  It was a lot of fun, with the 2 one-hour drills pretty
interesting to watch.  And the games were quite competitive.  Both
games ended 6-2 (Lemieux's and Jagr's teams losing).

I also wanted to see Martin Straka who played on a line with Jagr.
Unfortunately, he was usually on the ice against Francis' line and
when Ronnie's on the ice I have trouble focusing on anything but him,
but I did check Straka out a bit.  He *is* small (and I'd be willing
to bet he's got the smallest feet in the NHL -- they look really tiny)
and he's a very fast, smooth skater.  (During the 10-men shootout after
Game Two, he was the only one who scored.  I was impressed.  I was also
impressed with defenseman Ron Melanson.  Kind of reminded me of Jimmy
Johnson (Johnson as a North Star, not Johnson as a Penguin).  He was
dishing out some good checks and making things happen.  He received the
only penalty of that game and was paired with Paul Laus.  I'd rather see
either of them make the team rather than Chychrun, I think.

Other notes:  Ulfie-baby received the biggest welcome (well, other than
the scores of teenage girls swooning over Jaro).  He didn't play in either
game but participated in the drills.  He and Tocchet were good-naturedly
in each other's faces a lot (you could actually hear them giggling). 
And during
the segment where they all pepper the goalies with shots, Ulf scored a
goal and place went wild.

Craig Patrick and Scotty Bowman were together for a while.  And I swear
John Davidson was sitting across from me.  If that wasn't him, he has a
twin brother in Pittsburgh.

For you arena goers, save your pennies.  I noticed in passing that
concession prices have increased.  No kidding. :)

Ok. So I have a complaint.  I arrived at the arena at 8:55am and got in
at 9:40am, which means I missed a good part of Game One.  They had ONE
ticket seller and ONE turnstile open for hundreds of people (which they
had to expect.  Frankly, I expected a bigger turnout; but the lack of
newspapers could have had an effect on that.).

The tournament continues tomorrow and Wednesday (9:00am-4:00pm -- too bad
they don't have evening hours like they used to for us working stiffs).
The $2 admission is going to the Florida hurricane relief fund.

Mom.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
From: kslate@MtHolyoke.edu (Kevin D. Slate)
Subject: Bruins vs Whalers
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:15:19 GMT



I feel sorry for all the Whaler fans out there...How can you take going
to a game in your home arena only to find more Bruins fans than Whaler
fans? It does make a great rivalry and a great game to see.


A Bruins fan to close to Hartford!


Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
From: etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se (Staffan Axelsson)
Subject: Re: Rangers imports
Keywords: Andersson, Zubov facts, please
Organization: Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 07:09:43 GMT

moakler@romulus.rutgers.edu (bam!) writes:
>
>	Could anyone tell me anything about soon-to-be Rangers
>defensemen Mikael Andersson of Sweden and Sergei Zubov(?) of the CIS.

That would be Peter Andersson (Mikael Andersson is a TB Lightning wing).

>I know that Andersson is 24 and played for Malmo last season, where he
>scored a decent amount of points, but other info would be appreciated.

He's born 8-29-65 and played last season with Malmo in the Swedish elite
league scoring 12 G, 20 A, 32 P, 18 PIM in 40 GP.

Sergei Zubov is born 7-22-70 and scored 6 G, 5 A, 11 P, 12 PIM in 41 GP with
CSKA (Moscow) last season. He is 6'0" and 187 lbs.
All according to 'The sporting news Hockey'.

>I am especially interested in the size, handedness, speed, and

From the same source of info, Peter Andersson is listed as 6'0", 187 lbs.
He is mostly known for his offensive skills. He's a good skater with
a great eye for the game. As one of Sweden's best defensemen last
season, 'Sweden's Brian Leetch' is a comparison that comes to my mind.
His defensive defense could improve though.

>defensive ability of these two players and would also appreciate any
>comments or evaluations that you might send (Such as, is Andersson
>better than, say, Per Djoos?)

Andersson is IMO better than Djoos, yes.

>	It's just that, with all the signings that the Rangers have
>done this year, I have no idea who is going to make this team after
>the stars and the key role players.
>

I'd think that Andersson has a fair chance of making the team, but then
again I'm not a NHL coach.

>---
>Bill Moakler				  |        LPO 10280  PO Box 5064     
>rutgers!remus.rutgers.edu!moakler (UUCP)  |       New Brunswick, NJ 08903
>moakler@remus.rutgers.edu (arpa)          |    	     [!RUTGERS ANIME!]   
>	                      	!ALLERGIC TO J-POP!

Staffan Axelsson
etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se
contact for Swedish hockey
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey
Subject: Re: Pro Sports Again Shows Death Wish
Date: 12 Sep 92 21:54:22 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department

In article <BuBEIM.vD@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> parker@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Jim Parker) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.135451.28255@ccu.umanitoba.ca> kdc@ccu.umanitoba.ca () writes:
>>
>>Scott Taylor's column in Sunday's Winnipeg Free Press:
>
>>difficult to do business, pro sports proprietors are magnificent.
>>  Has the idiots in Calgary not offered Selanne $1.5 million to sign, the Jets
>>could have inked the speedy Finn for $400,000 a year - period.
>>However, Selanne got the big buck and his fortune won't go unnoticed by other
>>players and agents.
>>  THE BONEHEADED FLAMES have set an ugly precedent by offering a huge amount of
>>moneyto an unproven European rookie.  The Jets HAD to sign Selanne, but as a
>>result the entire market place has been given a kick in the jock.
>
>	I'm willing to believe that King knows a little more about the
>European players that you or I - or likely any coach in the NHL. Calgary
>does not often pay out that kind of money, so King must have been convinced
>that he was making a good deal. A player is worth what someone will pay.
>
>	So why did the Jets HAVE to  sign Selanne? Why didn't they sign him 
>before? If he's not worth it, don't pay it.
>

Selanne obviously is a smart cookie...not quite Lindros...but wiser
in the ways of the world than a lot of naive Canadian and Russian
hockey players.

Selanne was a free agent without compensation...the Jets only had the
right to match...but Calgary, being nasty, put a huge signing bonus
up front, which meant the Jets couldn't escape paying the signing
bonus even if they matched and then traded Selanne...and it looks
as if it had the secondary effect of pissing Zhamnov off. 

The Flames saw a chance to create cause trouble for the Jets...
draining their bank account of a million bucks, and creating 
dissension among the ranks.

Olzcyk and Essensa no doubt noted that the Jets found the million
bucks to pay Selanne's signing bonus.

Gerald
Newsgroups: rec.sport.hockey