HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Date: 8 Jan 93 16:47:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: sequent.1993Jan8.164758.21563
Distribution: na
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>    Magnet schools provide the kind of challenge that schools ought to
>providing, but unfortunately, do not.

BINGO!!!!!

>Part of the success is not only
>due to dedicate teachers, but much more importantly, to dedicated students,
>who have parents that are aware of the value of better education.  I recently
>read that Americans were tested in math skills and still fared just as
>poorly as ten years ago.   When asked, typical American parents were
>satisified with their children's education,

Please netters, remember you don't represent the 'typical', take some
time and socialize with the 'great masses'. It is very hard to convice
someone who drives a truck, or works on a production line, etc. that
math and science is of any use. Some where we have forgotten the idea
where we want our kids to get a better education than we had. You and
I on the net are in a way the lucky ones, but again remember we are
not the majority. WE HAVE to come up with some way of getting the idea
across to these parents that education is worth it for their kids.

>while typical Japanese parents
>were not.   While one might consider the Japanese system extreme, one advantage
>is that, for many parents, education is at a premium.   Valuing education must
>first come from the home, and then the school.

Have you been in some of these homes ? I have, and I don't just mean
typical urban such as NY City. But areas that are considered pretty well
off. We are going to have to re-educate the parents before we can
educate the kids.

>The best schools will not help people who are unwilling to learn.

I've worked with kids that have been pegged as TOTALLY unable to learn,
basically given up on, now these aren't the urban kids that are in gangs
etc, but they could be or would be if they had a chance. BUT IT is very
interesting after less than an hour how much they do learn, AND WANT to
learn. What I'm trying to say is that in most casses it is not the kids
that are unwilling to learn, but the environment (mostly
home/parent) that is the problem.

-pete
Pete Lancashire
petel@sequent.com
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman)
Subject: Re: Should I Participate?
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 05:23:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1i80agINNeo7@rave.larc.nasa.gov> rowland@zorba7.larc.nasa.gov (Michael W. Rowland) writes:
>What is the stance in the education community about
>a single, no children person going to PTA and school
>board meetings and really getting involved in the
>education choices they make?

The stance will differ from person to person, but you have every right
to be a part of the meetings, I think.  You are a taxpayer and even if
you never send a child to school, you doubtless are affected by teh
products turned out by the school.

Make sure you go in with the proper attitude.  I think this is a noble
action and I hope you have some good thoughts to lend.  However, if you
go in with the attitude of, "I'm going to change things and I don't care
whom I offend," you will never change anything.  Tread lightly for a while
and get the feel of the organization.  These people will likely be wary
of you at first, but if they see that your ideas and intentions are good
they will respect and welcome your input.  Good luck!!

Jeff          wayman@lamar.colostate.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Subject: Re: Smart kids (Was Re: Magnet schools)
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 93 06:31:02 GMT

clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin) writes:

>   I assume the only one who cared that this kid, who was potentially
>bright, was, in effect, being discouraged from doing academics.
>His peers (high school (9-12) class population of about 120) don't
>see much, the few that are doing well academically are isolated by
the majority. Esp. if the are not into sports. This boy is, nothing
special, but wants to participate. Just a kid that want to play bb.
Not that good but so what.
>Imagine
>if someone saw a good runner, or a good football player, or a good violinist.
>Such a person might be persuaded quite heavily to continue to excel in
>these activities.   Yet, it appears in this case that few people may
>be encouraging this student to work on academics.
Correct
>Of course, if the
>kid is having problems relating to other students,
Not really, he is very easy to get along with (not only my belief but
that of others in the school)
>that should be looked
>into, but it could just as easily be due to other students not liking
>the kid for not playing basketball.
Misunderstanding, see above.

>--
>Charles Lin
>clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Magnet schools
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 18:23:00 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@signal.eng.umd.edu


   I read a moderately recently issue of US News and World Reports which
discussed the issue of "magnet" schools.   Magnet schools, for those of
you who don't know it, are schools that admit highly qualified students on
the basis of examination or other similar means.   For example, New York
City has several schools like this (Stuyvesant, Bronx School of Science,
Brooklyn Tech, Hunter College, etc.).   I think the idea is that in a city
as large as New York, and with so many schools, it is difficult to maintain
a high quality education throughout since not all students are highly
motivated.   

    Therefore exams are given, and anyone getting some score is admitted
into these schools (which are free).   The distribution of various ethnic
groups is pretty good, and so some minorities like this system because
it gives a chance for qualified minorities to get the kind of education
they want.   The downside is that it may foster a bit of elitism where
top students are getting more of the resources than the rest of the
city.

    My personal opinion is that, if it is not really possible to maintain
high education throughout a city or town, either due to the lack of
high quality students or teachers,  then magnet schools are a good idea.
They make sure that those who are both willing and able are not hampered
by the location that they live in and made to go to a school where they
are not educationally challenged.   It also offers a way to emphasize education
as something to strive for.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:12:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.214632.10024@wam.umd.edu> kckbxr@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (Robin of Locksley) writes:
>Okay, it seems as though my comments earlier were taken totally  
>off-the-wall.  Well, allow me to try and explain a little clearer.  I am  
>against Magnet schools because they DO discriminate, that's it!

ANY educational system which does not greatly discriminate on the basis of
knowledge and ability cannot perform even at the D level.  You have hit on
the reason why our schools teach so little; they do not discriminate.  Even
before the present social adjustment--feel good--be one of the crowd 
philosophers took over, there was not enough discrimination, but it
was at least recognized that different children should progress at quite
different rates.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: jim@apsicc.aps.edu (frost...)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: MAGNET Schools
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:39 MST
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: apsicc.aps.edu
Keywords: MAGNET Schools
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


Hello all,
  I am attempting to obtain as much information or opinions as possible
regarding peoples thoughts on the value of MAGNET schools. Schools that
offer either highly specialized courses or courses which are for one
reason or another, such as limited enrollment at a single school but
high enrollment at a centralized district site, valuable in that context
for providing and filling an overall need within a school district.
  I have run a random in district survey of opinions and I would like
to contrast that with opinions of educators around the country. This
particular MAGNET school services the needs of eleven high schools and
provides courses for not only college bound students but also vocational
and technical training courses. As examples, everything from computer
related courses (data-entry training through business to advanced place-
ment), building trades (general construction through cabinet making),
word-processing (court reporting through advanced word-processing tech-
niques), advanced classical and modern languages (Latin to Hebrew to
Japanese to Spanish to Russian, etc.),  pre-med, A.P. calculus/fortran,
A.P. physics, A.P. chemistry, aviation science, astronomy, an LPN course
which has a high school student qualified for their Licensed Practical
Nursing Certificate upon H.S. graduation, nursing assistant and homebound
aide program, etc.
  This is an important topic for us as we would like to make the program
even better and we need input from all sources to do so. 
  Unfortunately we need to present this Friday; January 15 so any opinions
you could send my way would be appreciated and forwarded on to the appro-
priate people as soon as they are received. If you could EMail to me at
me address below it would help to save a great deal of time but I will
also followup on the conferences.
			Thank you very much for your help in advance,
							Jim Skeba
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    jim@apsicc.aps.edu
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager 
======================================================================

Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.wanted,misc.kids
From: an1060@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Early Learning Penmanship??
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: misc.education
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:42:22 GMT

X-Anon-To: misc.education

Hello,

A friend of mine is interested in the way penmanship is taught to children.
He wants to know about the method that involves printing the letters on a
grid, where each letter is confined to different areas (I vaguely recall doing
this in elementary school).  Does someone know the name for this method??
Can you suggest some references??

Thanks in advance!!

Abe

mantell@ams.sunysb.edu

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 21:40:41 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@step.eng.umd.edu


In article <C0JyC1.M43@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>
>But having children travel to schools for special work should be
>reduced; it is too costly, especially in time.  In this electronic
>age, we can provide specialized classes without physical movement.
>This can be done on an individual course basis, as well.  
>

    I had thought that one problem would be transportation, though in
places like NYC, people seem to get to such schools.   My feeling is
that student interaction can also play quite an important role in
education.   Knowing that fellow friends are working hard at some 
particular course may provide incentive to study hard.   Discussion
of ideas, though not as prevalent in high school as in college, can
sometimes be just as important as having the actual instruction
itself.   In addition, one can get better personal attention if one
is there in person.  

     For example, some people go to work, even though they might be
able to work at come because the work site is conducive to doing work
whereas one might lapse at home.   Others are perhaps suited to working
at home.

    While advances in technology may ultimately prove the wave of the
future as far as education is concerned,  these ideas need to be tested
as well because there can be drawbacks to these methods, as well as
advantages.   Even the equipment needed for this kind of education
may be costly in money.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 10:14:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.212307.6498@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>In article <38069@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:
 
>|> You don't think that American workers benefitted from having had 10
>|> percent of the population excluded from the job market?

>They probably did. I would say that that was another reason in favor of the
>"preference" if it weren't for the fact that the same people that had an
>easier time job hunting payed significantly higher taxes to finance the
>salaries of those abroad.

I completely disagree, and I think you need to take a much different view of
economics in order to see it.  The most important action of workers in
an economy with regard to individual well-being is not how many jobs are
"filled", but how much production is going on.  If 10% of the population
is not producing (or not producing as much as before) then the overall
wellbeing which can be achieved is going to be roughly 10% less.

Jobs do not exist in some static quantity in order to be doled out and 
divided up.  This view of jobs as some kind of natural resource is the
source of an awful lot of confusion in economics if you ask me.  Perhaps
of the educationists started treating production as the primary goal of
economics rather than the distribution of what has been produced, we wouldn't
see so many economically naive views being so popular in the political realm.

Remember Say's Law:  You can't consume more than you produce.

--Brian
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Magnet schools
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 05:23:27 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Distribution: na
Originator: clin@signal.eng.umd.edu


In article <1993Jan8.040433.12644@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
[comments referring to magnet schools in PG county]
>
>My first question is, how do you determine who has the ability and who
>does not?

   This is always going to be a controversial point.   One could always
test whether students can solve math problems, science problems,
write essays, etc., as a means of testing who gets in and who doesn't.
The drawback is that it may mean some minorities will fare poorly (though
in some locations like New York, if I recall, minorities are represented
in fairly large numbers) for one reason or another, and therefore people
may decide that this is inherently unfair.   Nevertheless, it may that without
magnet schools, the opportunities at local high schools may not be that 
good either, and while magnet schools do not promise great education to
everyone, there is something to strive for.
>
>Would it not be easier to allow those students to skip high school?
>It seems to me that the universities could do much more for them,
>and at the same time they would get a piece of paper that means
>something, not a useless high school diploma.
>
    I think this is unrealistic.   The most prestigious schools in the nation
assume that students entering have some background.   During the years of
high school, one can learn calculus, introductory sciences, learn a foreign
language, etc., and when they head to college, there will be other students
with similar skills.   Having these students go directly to college is,
in effect, having a magnet school.   Of course, placing 9th and 10th graders
in college would also pose interrelational problems, as someone who is
17 or 18 is likely to be more mature than someone at 15 or 16.

    Magnet schools provide the kind of challenge that schools ought to
providing, but unfortunately, do not.   Part of the success is not only
due to dedicate teachers, but much more importantly, to dedicated students,
who have parents that are aware of the value of better education.  I recently
read that Americans were tested in math skills and still fared just as
poorly as ten years ago.   When asked, typical American parents were
satisified with their children's education, while typical Japanese parents
were not.   While one might consider the Japanese system extreme, one advantage
is that, for many parents, education is at a premium.   Valuing education must
first come from the home, and then the school.   The best schools will not
help people who are unwilling to learn.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu

Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: idfriedm@hertz.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: Re: Smart kids (Was Re: Magnet schools)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 21:55:52 GMT

In article <Jan09.011315.62346@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.222319.19498@sequent.com> petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
>>
>>Or what about this kid, in a school where (s)he is put down by his, peers,
>>and in some cases by his parents, because he would not 'fit-in'. A kid
>>I was a mentor to this summer, (est IQ over 135) didn't want to get good
>>grades because he felt that he would not have any friends, and he did not
>>want to be a 'nurd and geek' ,his words, Also he had to make a choise between
>>basketball EVERYNIGHT of the week or homework, the school (big into
>>sports) and his parents felt that his basketball was more important and
>>these are direct observations and conservations with the school and his
>>parents, not my opion.
>
>I'm not entirely certain that extracurricular activities aren't as 
>important as academics in the situation of a tremendously gifted child.
>Of course, being pushed into something is another story.  A student
>like this needs balance in his life more than anything.  Athletics
>(that's what was mentioned here) can provide that along with other
>experiences that can teach him as much as any classroom ever could.  if
>the kid likes something other than academics, let him at it. 
>
 Nobody is saying that extracurriculars are not important. However, you
 must realize that in many school a strong anti-intellectual sentiment
 exists. The kids who do well in math, science or other subjects are the
 "geeks and nerds". So waht is happening is that a lot of these kids are
 suppressing their desire to seriously learn these subjects.

 It seems to me like these special schools for the gifted might remedy
 this situation.





>>His math teacher was the only one who seemed to care, but she was new,
>>and (I can't blame her) didn't want to risk loosing her job. Both his
>>history and english teachers were basketball coaches.
>
>The only one who cared about what?  
>
>I think coaches get a bad rap about only caring that kids get into sports.
>Granted, there will be those coaching zealots who only care that a kid
>can play, but I'd guess 98% of the high school coaches have the kid's
>interest in mind.  And yes, I thought about that statement!!  :-)
>
>Jeff              wayman@lamar.colostate.edu

Ishay
Xref: sparky misc.education:5773 sci.edu:1289
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.edu
From: tlai@cs.toronto.edu (Tony Wen Hsun Lai)
Subject: Re: Dumb school administrators and parents
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:55:06 GMT

In article <C0pBLz.6M2@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> lamoran@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (L.A. Moran) writes:
>Pete Lancashire gave us an example of a bright student who decided
>to play basketball rather than putting all of his effort into
>getting good grades. His school and his parents supported this
>decision. Pete writes;
>
>     "I was a mentor to this summer, (est IQ over 135) didn't want
>      to get good grades because he felt that he would not have
>      any friends, and he did not want to be a 'nurd and geek',
>      his words. Also he had to make a choice between basketball
>      EVERY NIGHT of the week or homework, the school (big into
>      sports) and his parents felt that his basketball was more
>      important.
[stuff deleted]
>
>I doubt that either the parents or the school said "to hell with
>academics". If the student had been doing poorly I'm sure that
>basketball would be dropped.

Um, I think you missed article <1993Jan9.061912.6608@sequent.com>, where
petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted]
:His academics, he is currently getting D's and F's in math, english, and
:history, sorry forgot to say this in the first post.
Newsgroups: misc.education,misc.kids
From: sva@stud.hsn.no (SVEIN MAGNE ABRAHAMSEN)
Subject: ERASMUS
Organization: Nordland College
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:28:04 GMT

I am a Norwegian student of economics.

I am going to write an essay about ERASMUS.

I would be very happy if you could provide me with some information.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: yschang@cc2.nctu.edu.tw (Chang Yen-Sen)
Subject: educational software wanted
Organization: National Chiao Tung University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:26:04 GMT

Hi!
     I am looking for some educational software for university courses,
     especially, the course of "Introduction to Computer Science".
     Any information would be appreciated.

-----------------------------------------------
yschang, Computer Center, National Chiao Tung University, Taiwan, R.O.C
email:yschang@cc2.nctu.edu.tw
Newsgroups: misc.education