HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga GRn V1.29 4/10/92 (Beta) by Mike Schwartz
Date: 16 Apr 92 10:03:42 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

In article <1992Apr16.035238.25148@seas.gwu.edu> gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>>gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>>> Of course I read the whole post.  Of course a 486 system is cheaper than an
>>> equivalent A3000.  If you cannot afford an A3000, then don't buy one.  If you
>>> do not like the Amiga, then ignore it.  Simple.
>>> 
>>	Why is the A3000 so expensive though?  I wanted to upgrade to it from
>>  my A500 but the 486 was just to good of a deal.  Commodore has the low end
>>  priced very well, why isn't the high end a better deal?  
>
>Yes, that is a good question.  It is one I cannot answer without using some
>less than complementary remarks about Commodore's management.  I would love
>to able to afford an A3000 with 28MHz 040, 24-bit graphics, and a 16-bit
>audio board.  I cannot, so I may well get a 50MHz 486.  Intel PC prices are
>dropping too fast to resist.  Too bad, though; I want an Amiga.
>

Since CBM is the only supplier of the Amiga, they will sell the machine for
what the market will bear.  When their machines don't sell, they drop the price
until it does sell.  (Hence my suggestion of a boycott).

It started with the C64.  I paid $800 for my first one.  When it wasn't selling,
CBM had a fire sale to get rid of their inventory so they could move on to their
next product (the plus 4).  When they cut the price to 25%, the C64 sold like
hotcakes.

The same thing was true of the A3000.  It wasn't selling until CBM did their
powerup program.  Amazing what cutting the price by $1500 did.

Once CBM finds a pricepoint that sells their products, they then diddle with
the same technology a bunch.  Hence the C64C and the C128 and the A3000T.

As to getting a 486 or the A3000...   You really have to look at what you
are getting.  In the case of the A3000, your machine will be useful to you
for years.  In the case of the 486, it will be obsolete as soon as the 586
comes out.  Sorry, OS/2 v3 doesn't work on anything less than the 586.  Sorry,
windows NT doesn't work on anything less than the 586.  Then you end up spending
more for your Intel stuff than for your Amiga.

--
Author of Amiga GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle,
and Genesis Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 22:00:39 GMT

bleys@tronsbox.UUCP (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:

>In article <dano.702926807@nasa08.cacs.usl.edu> dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson) writes:
>>
>>And, I think it is encouraging that it is assumed OS/2 2.0 will run ifne
>>with a 386SX CPU. BUt I am not sure what Mhz the PS/1 runs at.
>>
>>_Dan

>OS/2 1.<whatever> runs fine on a six-year-old PS-70 with four megs.

SO? What in the hell does that have to do with PS/1's??
Note: you posted not understanding the original conversation.
 
-Dan
.

>-- 
> *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@tronsbox.xei.com          *
> *                                                              *
>           "Thought and affliction, passion, hell itself,
>           She turns to favor and to prettiness."
>                   Laertes (speaking of Ophelia)        XY + XX = :-)
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson dano@nasa15.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu 
"I'm a staunch Independant.  Every time I think I am a Republican, they
 do something greedy, and every time I think I am a Democrat, to go and
do someting stupid." - Jay Leno from _60 Minutes_ interview 3/15/1992

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: masten@beta.lanl.gov (David A. Masten)
Subject: Re: Considering switching to IBM
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:13:54 GMT

In article <92105.233745MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.232536.13609@nic.unh.edu>, ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G
>Greene) says:
>>
>> [Well, for only $250 I can get the Super 586 UltraVGA with SOUNDMONGER
>>  sound board, a 1.21 gigabyte hard drive AND a free washer and dryer
>>  thrown into the bargain!]

Referring to his real price of about $3050 for a 486/33 with all the
goodies from Gateway:  You can also save about $500 on this price if
you want to get a no-name clone from one of many Bay Area small 
computer stores.  And all this talk of incompatability is over-hyped.
I've had only minor problems, less hassle than you Amiga users
judging from all the "super Gazonga brothers wont work with my A2000
with Huckleberry accelerator"  or "help installing Death Pilot on HD".

>And it would still be a junky old Intel-powered MessyDOS-crippled clone.
>I wouldn't pay $10 for one. (Well, maybe to play Jetfighter II, but
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OK, here's a serious question.  I found Jetfighter to have excellent
graphics (at least in terms of frame rate) on the PC.  But to be
horrible in terms of flight model.  A short demo of JF II seemed to
indicate it was similar.  Is this the type of  game that Amiga users
prefer?  I'm only partially generalizing from one post.  It seems
there is a lot more raves in this group about super mario type
games than sims and RPGs.
Just addressing the above comment, I wouldn't even consider buying JFII.
Now Falcon 3.0, or maybe the yet to be released Aces of the Pacific,
could get me to buy (actually upgrade) a PC.

>Followups to c.s.a.advocacy already, OKAY?

Sorry, I figured I get one post, everyone else has!
From: mcarp@sun75.uucp (Michael Carpenter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Room" for Windows
Keywords: Xerox brings multitasking to Windows
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:04:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Microtec Research Inc., Santa Clara, CA

In article <1992Apr6.144908.27235@clipper.ingr.com> kontos@clipper.ingr.com (Thorne Kontos) writes:
>
[Stuff deleted...]
>
>Peanut #2: If Commodore has any patents/copyrights to multitasking
>           then perhaps now is the time to fire up the big
>           lawyers, and go for the jugular vein. (Or at least
>           license it out for an enormously fat fee. Perhaps
>           then we will see all those things the posters on
>           .advocacy dream about come true.)
> 

AARRRGGHH!!!!  No, please!  In the first place, Commodore did NOT invent 
multitasking!  Far from it!  In the second, this is not the way to get
ahead of your competitors.
From: 01ksdavis@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Re: Commodore fanatic
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:51:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: bsu-ucs.1992Apr8.155120.5889


	This is an Amiga advocacy net, so don't be surprised or offended by
what you ST readers or MAC or even IBM readers might find.  
	I have yet to find a computer owner who won't brutally defend his or
her computer if it is being threatened.  
	Besides, if he is a kid, then should you be cussing to him when you
don't even know him?  Is that how you impress younger generations?  Seems
pathetic to me.
	The Amiga has its strengths, the Mac has its strengths, the IBM (gulp)
has its strengths (mostly in numbers), and the ST has a few strengths of its
own, too.  The point is that all of these aforementioned systems have their
weaknesses also, it's just up to the consumer to decide which one has the least
of these and which one fits not only his or her pocketbook, but also his or her
lifestyle and expectations.
	Come on, man this is the nineteen-nineties, not the eighteen-nineties! 
Time to live to live in harmony with other people you might not agree with on
everything with.  If this flaming stuff keeps on perpetuating itself, soon it
will be impolite to discuss not only sex, politics, or religion in public, but
also computers!

			Lighten up,
				:-)Kyle
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Wild rumor, potential for massive sea change in Amiga world
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:18:34 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

dtiberio@csws17.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
>	A500 = $399
>	A2000= $1600?
>	A3000= $1900 - $2500
>
>	Why is there such a large gap between the A500 and the A2000?
>Why doesn't CBM release an $800 machine? 

I dunno why, but it seems like ever since the dawn of micros, there's
been a computer sales death gap between $600-$994.  It's like asking
for trouble to stick a machine within that MSRP range.  I'm sure this
isn't an ironclad Murphy's Law, but does anyone know of such a machine
which survived in it?

spooky :-)  kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
From: peterk@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel)
Subject: Re: Apple problems "Home computer"
Organization: Public News & Mailserver, Commodore Germany PM UNIX, Frankfurt
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 14:57:55 GMT

tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (Kenneth Jamieson) writes:

>	I realize that C= can't commit to a delivery date, but I think
>many of us need some info on what is ON IT'S WAY - and what is
>POSSIBLY on the way etc so we can decide on out future plans.

Well, but when a product is on its way, there can happen soooo much until
you can really buy it. It can even die away, as happened to already some
devices also in recent history. You see, we have some very concrete, very
bad experiences (can you say A2286?) where all went wrong what was at all
possible, and the presumed delivery date was a whole two years later.

Murphy's law: As long as you don't announce a product, all works flawlessly.
The minute you tell the world a single word about it, everything fails
miserably.

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to  \\  Only my personal opinions... 
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
From: tam@furry.lonestar.org (Todd A. Murray)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  EISA vs. ZorroIII
Summary: Technical information and truth goes out the window.
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Distribution: world
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:57:07 CST
Organization: Small Furry Animals Unlimited, Plano TX

In article <1992Apr11.053448.3751@cs.mcgill.ca> costin@cs.mcgill.ca (Costin RIZAN) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.152819.27777@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>>sctconno@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Dave Connors) writes:
>>>
>>>>Nish Patel   nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>>>
>>>It's very rarely that I meet someone who insights so my damned anoyance in
>>>me. NiSHITh, unless you've got something productive to so, go away and play
>>>wordprocessors on your IBM.
>>>
>>
>>All right, Dave.  I've resisted flaming you for your abusive articles full
>>of bullshit generalizations, but I can't stand for this.  Trying to degrade
>>someone by vandalizing his name makes you, in my book, a lower form of life
>>than the excrement of Asian fruit bats.
>>
>>If you've got nothing better to do than post articles insulting people in
>>this way, without so much as a mention of the things they said with which you
>>disagreed, I urge you to get a life as soon as possible.
>>
>
>	Careful! You might be accused  of child abuse. Judging by Dave's
>recent posts he's probably under 14! I wouldn't be surprised if Daddy
>gave him a Usenet account for his birthday. 
>
Apparently, any attempts at posting truth have gone out the window in this
discussion.  In fact, any sort of technical information at all has gone out the
window -- it's just a bunch of name calling now.  That's not rare for this
newsgroup, but it's hit a new low now.

Why don't ALL of you do the following:
  1.  Read the newsgroup "news.announce.newusers".
  2.  Try posting articles without namecalling, generalizations, and stupid
flames.
  3.  Back up your OPINIONS with FACTS.  Opinions are nice, but without facts
to back them up, those opinions have no merit.
  4.  If you still must flame obnoxiously, use another newsgroup dedicated to
that purpose.

Note the Followup-To: line.  RESPECT the Followup-To line.

--
Todd A. Murray - tam@furry.lonestar.org
"We're just musicians, here to thin the thickness of your skin..." --Max Webster
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486_ (bunch O' Kaka anyway)
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:25:21 GMT

mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>
>This is a fallacy in your thinking.  Anyone who knows assembly for any machine
>can do the benchmark coding.  If you know assembly language, you know assembly
>language.  You may have to refer to the 80486 or 68040 manual to choose the
>most optimal instructions.  I maintain that the assembly coder will do 
>equally well on both CPUs.
>

You're saying that if someone knows 040 AL really well and never programmed
the 486 before, all he needs to program the 486 like an expert is a reference
manual?  What bullshit!  So much for your boastful claims of expertise.

>
>However, to make you happy, Intel and Motorola have had their own engineers
>optimize the benchmarks and the 040 wins every time.  And that's Intel
>experts vs. Motorola experts.  Both coding to optimize cache hits, etc.
>

(Sigh) Some proof, Mike?

>
>>Or, use the same compiler, exactly the same. All options should be the same.
>
>If you use EXACTLY the same compiler, you are going to get code for one of
>the two cpus.  Code generators have to be different (thus making the compilers
>not exactly the same) for different CPU families.  Which compiler would you
>prefer to use?The one that Intel masochists have spent 1,000,000 hours working
>on the code generator or the one that Motorola guys have spent 1,000?
>

I ask you again, what's wrong with using GNU C?  It was designed *not* to be
tied to any particular architecture.  While the code it produces may not be
the best code possible on each machine, I would think that it produces code
of similar quality on all machines.

>
>Even GNU will have different code generators for the two cpus.
>

Not really.  GNU C uses the basically the same code generator for all CPUs.
It gets information about the CPU's programming model (registers, addressing
modes, instructions) from a single MD (machine description) file.

>
>Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
>
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Nishith A. Patel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: EISA vs. ZorroIII
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:01:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: ux1.1992Apr7.030106.14814
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

mhw42412@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael Hwa Wu) writes:

>Hi,
>	If I'm not mistaken, EISA runs at about 8 Mhz.  MCA (IBM's 32 bit
>architecture) runs at about 1/2 the speed of the cpu.  So a 33 Mhz 486
>would have 16.5 Mhz slots ( I could be completely and utterly wrong ).
>	So the only way a PC could get 33 Mhz, 32-bit wide busses is to
>get an actual IBM PS/2 with a 66 Mhz processor.
>.

You are mistaken.
Where did you get these numbers?

Nish Patel   nap42487@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sunday, 5 Apr 1992 10:52:35 EDT
From: <LEEK@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS just sucks -- "ease of use" = "lack of freedom"
 <1992Apr3.140051.6076@ms.uky.edu>

In article <1992Apr3.140051.6076@ms.uky.edu>, justin@mik.uky.edu (Justin
Sullivan) says:
>
>I haven't heard of any licensing agreements between Commodore and Adobe. That
>doesn't mean there isn't one of course, but if there isn't, you will not see
>PostScript on any Commodore machine.

Not the Postscript(TM)...  There is a non-commerically freely
redistributable program called Post that sits on the HD on my Amiga.
There are also some PD fonts there too. :)  This package is written
and copyrighted by Adrian Aylward.  There is a share post.library and
an interpreter program along with C source code.  I have been printing
Spice3 document in Postscript for the last while.

K. C. Lee
Elec. Eng. Grad. Student
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon (wasn't: Amiga Falcon)
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:24:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: srl05.dano.702581072
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana

kentd@FtCollins.NCR.com (Kent Dalton) writes:

>>>>>> On 27 Mar 92 22:18:23 GMT, jerry@cs.mcgill.ca (Gerald (Jerry) KUCH) said:

>Gerald> In article <1992Mar27.140353.25236@wam.umd.edu> cmedley@wam.umd.edu (ENiGMA Software) writes:
>>In article <mykes.1675@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:

>>>as a game machine.  And the A500 blows away NES and SNES.
>>I'd have to disagree about the SNES... I think the sound and graphics on
>>the SNES are superior to a stock A500 hands down, mainly because of the
>>superior 3D-scaling and rotation capabilities.  On top of that, the 8 bit
>>video simply beats the 32 or 64 color displays on the A500.
>>
>>(not to say the A500 isn't good for games, but just that I think that a
>>SNES is just a better game machine... now if only it had a keyboard)
>Gerald> Yeah, if it had a keyboard you might be able to get some good
>Gerald> laughs out of that, what is it, a 65816?  Whooopeee....Long live
>Gerald> the 6502.  NOT!
>Every review I've read of the SNES has panned it for that very reason.
>They can all be summarized as: "The built in hardware scaling graphics
>capabilities of the SNES are extremely cool, but in practice, the system
>is inferior to the Genesis because of the exceedingly lame CPU (which is
>both weaker than the 68K and running at *half* the speed of Genesis's
>68K)." 

Hmm. I thought the 65816 in the SNES ran at *2* Mhz.

-Dan
.

>--
>/**************************************************************************/
>/* Kent Dalton                   * EMail: Kent.Dalton@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM */
>/* NCR Microelectronics          *                                        */
>/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A      *                                        */
>/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525  * (303) 223-5100 X-319                   */
>/**************************************************************************/
>Well, here I am in AMERICA..  I LIKE it.  I HATE it.  
>I LIKE it.  I HATE it.  I LIKE it.  I HATE it.  I LIKE it.
>I HATE it.  I LIKE..  EMOTIONS are SWEEPING over me!!
--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson dano@nasa15.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu 
"I'm a staunch Independant.  Every time I think I am a Republican, they
 do something greedy, and every time I think I am a Democrat, to go and
do someting stupid." - Jay Leno from _60 Minutes_ interview 3/15/1992
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: 040 and 486 and nap42487 knows nothing about CPUs.
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:03:25 GMT

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>>[Intel is a kludge]
>>
>>When you ever have programmed
>>Intel and Motorola (or MOS) processors both in assembler and don't get
>>this strong impression, then you must come from another planet.
>
>Wow.  For a man of your education, a PhD, your attitude sure is arrogant.

This seems quite common in the advocacy group.  Perhaps Dr. Kittel was
responding to a poster with a similar attitude, and the above quote was
taken out of context.

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:   C= policy (Re: Apple problems "Home computer")
Distribution: world
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:40:29 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <3520@tronsbox.UUCP> tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (Kenneth Jamieson) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.101235.26481@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au> davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn) writes:
>>
>>I think that the 586 will cause all the lower cpus to shuffle down one level,
>>with the 286 dropping out completely.  This happened when the 486 came in - can
>>you buy a new XT now?  Many companies already don't sell 286 systems.  So, I
>>doubt that anyone will end up paying less money - they'll just be getting more
>>powerful systems for the same amount.
>
>	
>	Heh. With the var prices on SX motherboards under 200$ I would
>say 286's are effectively dead.

I took a look in the back of some old magazines (1988-1991), yesterday.
Effectively, when the price of an XT reached $500, it was a goner. You
couldn't sell them any cheaper and still make a profit.  I would say that
the 286 is down there now.  They're still around $1000 in packages, because
of the VGA card and monitor, but the prices of those peripherals are dropping
rapidly.  The way prices are falling, a 386SX/16 box may soon be too cheap
to make a profit.  It will probably hang around a while, as it is a 32 bit
processor.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root
From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: *** ULTIMATE BASHING for PeeCee Users
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:55:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1992Apr7.185517.21585
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
: OS/2 has message-passing *and* MP (message passing is part of the
: Presentation Manager's windowing API).  What is the difference between
: the Amiga's and OS/2's message-passing mechanisms?  Just curious...

Most systems message-pass by copying the message.  The Amiga passes
pointers between tasks.  See why MP wouldn't work well?  It's highly
illegal.  But it's lightning-fast.

: 
: Well, like I said, OS/2 contains more functionality in every OS component
: than does AmigaDOS (kernel, graphics, GUI, etc).  Plus, it has kernel support

I'm not going to even touch that--I'm not qualified to argue.

: for two API's (16- and 32-bit), DOS emulation, and Windows support.  I fully

Those aren't features.  It sounds nice, but those aren't features.

: realize that this stuff is "baggage", but in the PC world, where compatibilit
: is everything, it's necessary baggage, and it does add to the memory
: requirements.

Right--It adds the baggage.  And that what makes it a large OS.  And
inefficient, unless you run those.  My point is that its an OS
replacement, not the end-all be-all OS, like it's trying to be.  OS/2
is a pig.  It's a pig because of the things it has to do to run all 3
systems... Whether you consider it a feature or not, that's going to
make it bigger than the Amiga with VM and MP...

Greg
-- 
 __________________________________________________________________________
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