From: drew@juliet.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt)
Subject: Re: Stubborn Cyclists
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 09:33:32 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.014801.5283@sol.UVic.CA> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>In article 23268@colorado.edu, drew@kinglear.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct6.030058.11632@sol.UVic.CA> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>>>
>>>
>>Do you like driving down pot-hole covered roads, with potholes severe enough 
>>to damage your car?  Cyclists don't either.  Many bike paths are in a sad
>>state of repair, where the potholes are bad enough to at least knock a wheel
>>out of true if they don't throw you.  There are also more minor imperfections
>>in the pavement that recieve less attention than those on roads.
>>
>Hey, where I come from originally, we have potholed roads like you've
>never seen. That place is Montreal.
>>What about sand?  Bike roads don't have a shoulder, where runoff carries
>>debris like sand.  On my road bike, I have two contact patches of under 
>>..75 square inches each.  Loose traction on either of those and you'll get 
>>a nasty case of road rash at 20+ MPH.  
>That's why your bike paths have speed limits. Real roads have speed limits
>too, and I adhere to them.

The point is that bike paths are not as well maintained as roads.  

If the perfectly maintained bike path, a smooth two lane (bike width) strip of 
asphalt is analogous to a perfectly maintained two lane highway, many 
bike paths are analogous to jeep trails.  

Why suffer a rough ride, possible tire / wheel dammage, and a risk of injury
from the debris that accumlates on a bike path when a few feet away, there's 
a smooth road that's relatively clean?
 
>>Do you like driving on roads where there's a 15MPH speed limit, and 
>>traffic is doing 5?  Cyclists don't either.  In many places, there is 
>>a ridiculously low speed limit on the bike paths that is enforced 
>>by Bike Nazis (pigs on pedal patrol).  Pedestrians on dual purpose 
>>paths can slow traffic to a snails pace, ignoring separating lines
>>IF there are any.
>
>It gets that way when cyclists use the whole right lane in congested
>traffic, and that's what I'm complaining about.

My point exactly : you don't want slow traffic (in this case cyclists)
slowing you down, the same way cyclists don't want pedestrians 
slowing them down.  If you had an alternate road without this problem, 
that would get you to school faster, you'd take it.  Cyclists 
do the same thing.

Why should I put up with slow traffic on one road, when a few feet 
away (except during rush hour) I can go as fast as I want with no problems? 

>
>>How about when you get on a road, and the slower cars in front of you fill up 
>>all available lanes so you can't pass?  I've seen many pedestrians walking
>>down a bike path three and four abreast.  They get a little irritated
>>when you pass at 25, if one of them doesn't get run over when he 
>>makes a sudden move in the wrong dirrection.
>
>Pedestrians should be on sidewalks where they belong, like bikers should
>be on bike paths.

Obviously, not everybody practices this, and there are places where 
multiple use roadways (read, either roads without an 
accompanying bike path, or multiple use paths).

>>How do you feel about drivers who pull out in the middle of the road, stopping
>>all traffic while their waiting to make a turn?  Most bike paths are set back
>>from the main road, and drivers will pull into intersections between bike
>>paths and side roads so they can have a good view of the "real" road.  
>
>Fine, but don't block other traffic. 

No sane driver will block the main road, but they won't think twice about
blocking the bike path.  Cyclists dislike this just as much as you do, 
and will do things to avoid it.
 
>>At night, the lights hang over the real road, not the bike path.  
>>I like to see where I'm going.
>
>Isn't your bike equipped with a little generator and light? Those things
>exist for a purpose.

Nicad powered hallogen light, much brighter than old generator 
powered deals, and it stays on even if you stop.  It's definately an 
improvement over no light, although it doesn't cover as much are as real street 
lights.  Given the amount of refuse that covers many bike paths,
extra light doesn't hurt anything.

>It's waiting at red lights that gets me too close to bikers, when they pass
>inches from the car, just to get up to the intersection. If they waited behind 
>my car, I would treat them just like other traffic.

Some cyclists aren't very polite.

>
>>>
>>>  Am I the only one who bitches about bikers not using bike trails?
>>>
>>>  Does this happen to you, too?
>>
>>No.  Normally, I only drive my car when I'm going skiing, camping, etc,
>>or hauling something.  
>>
>>If you abused cyclists in Boulder the way you do in California, you'd
>>be chased down and pummelled by millitant bikers.  When some of these
>>guys get cut off, they'll chase down your car, pound on your glass, 
>>and...

=8^) omitted here.  People who've run into Millitant Boulder Bikers
might not see the humor in this...

>Complaining about some phenomenon and abusing people are entirely dif-
>ferent things. I have never cut a cyclist off, or caused a bicycle
>accident. Something is wrong with the status quo, and it should change
>in order to make life more amenable to motorists and cyclists.
>   Furthermore, my posts come from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada;
>NOT California. I see no reason why violence should come into the

Data point : compiler-construction induced all nighters drastically degrade
 	the accuracy and eloquence of news postings, and often
	come out with the wrong tone.  Sorry if that came off sounding too 
	abrasive...

>picture. I'm not one of those *I'm bigger than you* idiot motorists.

Unfortunately, there are many people that are.  

>Cyclists have a rough time out there. But still, I see your point
>because when I go for a walk, cyclists come flying by not inches from
>my face. They give me the willies, and this is on the sidewalk. 
>

-- 
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IBM for AIX (appropriately called Aches by those having to administer it), but 
marketing's sins don't come close to those of legal departments.
Boycott AT&T for their absurd anti-BSDI lawsuit.
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