From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: re: Nagi's comment on dream control
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 22:12:46 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <15a0l7INNjqs@network.ucsd.edu>

9207.30 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


old Tagi:

With regard to obtaining 'control over dreams', I think this is ludicrous.
Only the mad objectivist egotist would attempt such a 'taming' of the
subconscious mind and though 'dreamwork' (i.e. infusing the
conscious mind into dreamstate via waking or sleeping processes) can be
very effective, any attempt to achieve a 'control' over
dreams is likely to result in the backlash which humans now face while
attempting to control nature.  It is silly and dangerous.


Valerie Polichar writes:

?????
What about lucid dreaming?
My sister has been practicing lucid dreaming for seven years, and 
is highly skilled at the process.  Control of all aspects of self can be a 
/very/ useful *tool*, as it allows precise concentration of all one s energies.
  
How do you define such a 'backlash' as you predict and where would it 
be coming from?


Response:

Lucid dreaming is what I was talking about when I mentioned 'infusing the
conscious mind into dreamstate' during waking consciousness.  My
understanding is that this style of 'visualization' has nothing to do
with controlling the dreams one has while asleep, but I know very little
about it.  Perhaps you could start another thread and tell us more about
this technique?

'Control of all aspects of the self' is a tricky phrase.  What I argue is
dangerous is conscious control over all aspects of the self.  It amounts
to the expansion of the conscious mind into areas of the mind/body complex
which have heretofore been the jurisdiction of the subconscious mind.  This
type of 'control' leads to undue stress, anxiety and pain.  It involves
an unhealthy repression of subconscious energies and a denial of their value.

I assume that this is not what your sister is doing.  I assume that your
sister is exploring various aspects of herself, achieving a balance of
conscious and subconscious energies, and letting this balance work toward
greater health.  

What I'm arguing is unhealthy is the 'conquering of the subconscious' by
the conscious mind.  This has a direct correlative in modern government,
where, as Big Brother, it must maintain a constant watch over all its
citizens' activities - consciousness reigns supreme.  The 'backlash' I'm
speaking of is, in this analogy, the revolutionary forces which network
together to overthrow such a government.

In an individual this would take the form of the revolt by the subconscious
mind: sickness, hallucination, nightmares, delusion.  Too much yang, and
yin will come roaring back like a monsoon.  In our society this happens
most frequently to those individuals who fear 'losing control', and by
monitoring, restricting and eventually destroying themselves they fight
to maintain such a mindstate.  

In time they suffer psychosis, the subconscious mind breaks off 
completely and fights for its 'territory'.  Many 'emotional breakdowns',
'anxiety attacks' and 'religious conversions' are forms of this process.
The healthy individual maintains a balance of said energies and steers
clear of the extremes (excepting the shaman, who is able to venture out
and return relatively unscathed).

The origin of this backlash is, of course, the Self.  Our potentially
unified psyche 'attempts to regulate' psychic balance by moving us toward
that which we lack, in terms of mental states.  To experience a certain
mindstate it is often very effective to strive toward its opposite.  If
I want to be at peace, for example, a strong dose of exercise will clear
out any built-up stress in my system and I'll move toward that peace
without having to 'will myself there'.  Other examples abound.

The whole principle may be summed up by a Taoist formula, which 
recommends that if we wish to achieve yang we must strive for yin.
Tao takes care of the rest.  It applies throughout life.  If I
wish to be rich, I can strive to become poor, and vice versa.  I'm
not sure how effective this is in all aspects of life, but it is a
mystical relation which may have transcendental results when applied.

I may find discover true freedom by seeking to be enslaved.  I may
discover the real meaning of wealth when I give away my goods.  By
giving pleasure, I may come to understand what it is to receive it.

Please let me know if this is unclear.  I'll elaborate where necessary.

 

Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Fr. Nigris
Newsgroups: alt.magick