HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: reloading & lead
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug18.152100.24630@news.yale.edu> swatt@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:
#
#
#Questions:
#
#  1)	Is there something about the clad-jacket process which makes
#	it unsuitable for magnum revolvers?
#
#  2)	If answer to (1) is no, does Carroll do something wrong that
#	other makers avoid?
#
#  3)	Is there a source of reliably "hard cast" bullets that don't
#	produce a lot of lead vapor, or is this problem inherent in
#	any cast bullet.  I've read about gas-checks, but I've never
#	used them.
#

GAS CHECK BULLETS! Yes, the design is to prevent hot gas from getting
ahead of the bullet (eroding lead as it does which sticks to grooves).
A good gas check will allow two nice things with cast bullets:  (1)  
More velocity/grain of powder (less escaped gas) and (2) A fairly wide
range of bullet velocities before severe leading occurs.  For velocities
in excess of 1000 f/s consider jacketed bullets, for velocities above
1200 use them although a lot of high velocity SWC cast bullets are used
for hunting - they are effective but will tend to lead.  I know of folks
who use gas check cast bullets in semi-autos such as Desert Eagle .44 mag
with no problems assuming they clean them between sessions.

#I'd like to find a source for bullets cheaper than the $0.10 @ that
#swaged-jacketed ones will go for, but saving a few bucks is not worth
#several hours of cleaning time.
#
From: mbh@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How new is NIB (New In Box) ??  (Classified ads)
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:34 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, UCSD


I've seen some good prices in Gun List for some guns that I'm looking
at.  But, when they say "NIB" meaning New In Box, do they really mean
it?  Has anyone had experience with buying through classified ads?  How
can I tell if it has been fired?

					Perplexed,

					Matt Harrington
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:00:52 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Aug14.042158.15600@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <1992Aug12.230110.1450@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#
##But it doesn't really matter.  If the point of the reload is to match
##the factory ammo you may as well use factory.  I use Hydroshoks in 9mm
##and Silvertip in .38 Special and am happy with the choices.  Sure, I
#
#Well, there _is_ one reason to use reloads: factory ammo is so expensive
#that I simply can't afford to buy the quantity of magic Silver Hydra-Talon
#rounds that I need to practice. Thus, if I'm going to practice regularly
#with the same ammo I would use for defense, I don't see a good alternative
#to working up a good hand-load, and then using that both for defense and
#practice. Comments?

Sure, use a reload for practice, and be careful to load up to the same
recoil and velocity as the factory ammo.  Just be careful not to carry
the reload for social occasions.

I figure that my reloads (fairly hot for the most part) are close
enough to the factory ammo that I keep that the practice does me good.
I don't notice any problems those few times a year that I fire out the
magazines of factory ammo and refresh it - impact on target is pretty
close at 25 yards and perceived recoil is the same.

#On a related note, does anybody publish reloading info for plus-P 9mm
#parabellum? 

Look for a 9mm NATO load and you're in the right ballpark.  A load
that I've used to good use in a Glock (with it's very strong barrel)
is with 8.6 grains AA#7 under a 115 grain Remington FMJ.  Be careful
if you exceed this as it will compress around 9.0 grains and pressures
become erratic at that point.

I you're looking for good 9mm load data I'd suggest Ken Waters data
from Wolfe Publishing.

-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: mbh@sdphu3.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Beginner's question about caliber
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:44 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, UCSD


I've never been around guns that much, so I never learned the
terminology.  Now that I'm interested in learning to shoot, I need some
basic information.

For example, I can see that the bullet size increases from .22 to .45
But, how does one convert that number into inches or millimeters?  Where
do 9mm handguns fit in?  I mean are they larger or smaller than a .45?

Also, I've picked up a copy of the _Shooter's Bible_.  When talking
about caliber, it frequently adds suffixes like LR, ACP, Parabellum,
Magnum, Special, etc.  What do these terms mean?

One last question:  What's the difference between single action and
double action?

Thanks a lot in advance for the help!

					Regards,

					Matthew Harrington
From: grant@bluemoon.rn.com (Grant DeLorean)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:10 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:


##  Oil, like motor oil or plain gun oil (any kind) or WD40 is not recommended.
##The Moderator is correct in that WD40 can remove blueing.

#	The real reason I posted!  I use WD-40 on my Remington model 48
#12ga autoloader as both a lubricant and as an anti-moisture measure, and
#it seems to work fairly well at both functions.  The main reason I

 
 WD-40 contains chlorinated paraffins, and is highly penetrating, and
can contribute to stress corrosion cracking of stainless alloys under  
certain conditions.  Also degrades into acidic biproducts under  
exposure to ozone, say if you have an arc welder in proximity*... This
can get expensive if you have to reblue all your firearms. Both of
these discoveries came from Ed Harris (C.E. Harris in the mags). He
isn't around UseNet anymore but he is still available at
Ed.Harris@p343.f312.n109.z1.fidonet.org if you want to reach him to
clarrify.

 Use Breakfree CLP ot FP-10 or something intended for firearms from
the start and avoid the whole mess.



 * an arc welder isn't the only source of ozone... Lightning will
create it and other fairly common happenings will too...
-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.rn.com)   /

        Tested on dolphins and assorted helpless furry creatures
From: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:40 GMT

In article <19052@smoke.brl.mil>, gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

|> That's why professional ballistics work uses controlled laboratory
|> conditions to simulate what are judged to be the most important aspects
|> that determine terminal ballistic performance, e.g. ordnance gelatin.

The real problem of this method is that people won't find anything except
what they wanted to find. That's the best way to avoid to what really happens,
without any prejudice. This was clearly the case during the war between the
temporary and permanend cavity theories. Anyone just did the theories intended
to prove his theory instead of looking at what really happened.

-- 
Emmanuel Baechler.                        | Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle   | e-mail: baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne  |     or: baechler@liasun6.epfl.ch
MA-Ecublens                               | Standard Disclaimer
CH-1015 Lausanne	Switzerland

Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hollowpoints illegal in N.J. ?
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:21 GMT
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL

In article <1992Aug11.195014.9281@ttinews.tti.com> reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:
)In article <1992Aug3.232758.10856@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
)
)#)3) Hollowpoint bullets have more stopping power, without necessarily being
)#)more lethal.  A suspect is better off being shot once with a hollowpoint
)#)that stops him in his tracks than being shot repeatedly with
)#)non-hollowpoint bullets
)
)#)This makes the objection to hollowpoint bullets as "too lethal" kind of ironic
)
)#A relatively minor quibble.  As I understand it, it is recommended that
)#a person fire all the rounds in their weapon anyway - at least if it's
)#only six rounds - and then argue in court that they just kept pulling the
)#trigger until the gun was empty.
)
)Recommended by whom?  All the books I've seen on the subject say to fire
)until the attacker is stopped.  This will (in theory) take fewer shots
)if hollowpoints are used.  Shooting beyond that point is not legally
)justifiable, in most US uristictions at least.

I've gotten a fairly large number of negative comments on this.  I believe
that this was from the much touted "Armed and Dangerous" book.
From: gonzalez@bbn.com (Jim Gonzalez)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Another snapcap question.
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:09:38 GMT

dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:

# The only problem I can see, is that:  Are snapcaps' construction sturdy
# enough to take a slide's cycling?

One thing to watch for is stuck rounds.  In .45 ACP, headspace is off
the case mouth.  At least for SnapCap-brand (the ones made in Italy,
with the translucent red ogives and brass bases, blister-packed on a
white and yellow card), the case mouth is simulated by a ridge in the
plastic.  Every once in a while, the dummy round gets pushed hard
enough that the round seats too deeply, wedging that ridge into the
rifling.  The extractor can't get it, so I have to punch the dummy out
from the muzzle end.  I suppose I could try the "drop the magazine and
slam the slide home" drill, but I don't feel liking paying for a new
extractor.

Although the ridges are getting a bit chewed up, the SnapCaps have
otherwise worked just fine over the past several years.

				-Jim.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: In Quest of Quiet ... what makes a quiet gun?
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:09:36 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

#I'm hoping to find out what makes for a quiet 'report' from a gun.

#How do I get more bang with less BANG! ??

	The bang is caused by hot gases reaching the wide open
spaces once the bullet leaves the end of the barrel.  This, of
course, produces a shock wave and we get the loud bang.  Others
will go into more detail, but let's stick with simplicity here.

	First, remember F=MA, so to get a bullet going fast, or
to move a heavier one a the same speed, you need more force, hence
more and hotter gas.  Thus, look for something that doesn't shoot
the hottest load or the heaviest bullet.  You'll have to decide
for yourself, based on how much you need that bullet to do.

	So, we now have to cool those gases, or allow them to
expand in a controlled manner.  A silencer is out, but a muzzle
brake will help, and even a flash suppressor can make a good
deal of difference.  Ever see the insides of a muffler?  All you
do is provide a space for the gas to expand, it loses some heat
that way, and then let it escape through a similary-sized hole.
Can you take find a flash suppressor that will allow this?  It's
going to have to be a big one, but it will help.

	Long barrels keep that shock wave a bit further away, so
those are often a good idea too.

	I hope this gives you a few ideas.  I can't *wait* to see
what answers the others on here give.

	Notebook ready...

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: cheap 9mm bullets...
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:13 GMT

Hi folks,

I know this question has been asked before but I lost those replies.
I am looking for cheap 9mm bullets for reloading.  Right now I am
buying Remington 115-gr JHP for $49.95/1000.  Ouch!

I don't need JHP, however, they do need to be jacketed since these
rounds will be loaded pretty hot and I want to avoid leading.

Please email me, and I will post.

Thanks muchly,

-tt
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: aluminum bullets
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:39 GMT
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL

In article <9208152325.AA19519@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:

)My reference for this is Carroll Peters' book, "Defensive Handgun Ballistics", 
)a book which primarily deals with terminal ballistics.  Peters finds, through 
)curve-fitting some experimental data, that the depth of penetration of a 
)bullet in ballistic gelatin is as follows:
)
)                          Pgel = (10*m*V^0.5)/(A*i)
)
)and that the penetration of soft pine is:
)
)                          Pwood = E/(350*A*i)
)
)where m is the weight of the bullet in pounds, V is the velocity of the bullet 
)in fps, A is the cross-sectional area of the bullet in square inches (0.1 in^2 
)in our case), i is the form factor as in the previous article, and E is the 
)bullet's kinetic energy in foot-pounds.  P is the penetration in inches.  From 
)these two equations we see that the penetration is proportional to the 
)square root of the velocity in a soft target and the square of the velocity in 
)a harder target.  I wonder if soft pine is at all analogous to bone.

In "Design & Development of Fighting Vehicles", Ogorkiewicz gives the
following formula for armor penetration for tank shells (!)

m * v^2 = k * d^3 * (t/d)^n

n = exponent constant, about 1.4 or so
k = a constant dependent on projectile & plate, about 10^6 or so

m = projectile mass/weight (lb)
v = projectile velocity (ft/sec)
d = projectile diameter, in
t = thickness of armor that shell just penetrates (in)

n is argued to be between 1 (representing expanding a hole sideways) and
2 (representing pushing a plug of the target out against shear force) with
a 'typical' value of 1.4 (for tank shells, presumably).

It appears likely to me that penetration will be roughly proportional to
energy (velocity^2) for any fairly 'hard' target (actually, slightly less
than linear with energy according to this equation, but also less than linear
with mass).

This approximation breaks down even for armor eventually, though - it assumes
a cylindrical hole.  Really high velocities yields cavitation ( a conical
hole).  Shatering of the projectile is another problem at very high 
velocities.

Some actual data points - for v = 2000 ft/sec, a shell can perforate
armor 1.3x it's diameter, for v = 2600ft/sec 1.8x diameter, and for
v = 3,500 ft/sec 2.8x diameter.
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <larryd.714251633@milton> larryd@milton.u.washington.edu (Larry Desoto) writes:
  {deletia}
#forgot or gave up.  When the fellow touched off the next round, the slide
#neatly slashed two gashes right through the webbing between his thumb and
#forefinger.

I managed to slice my thumb open in a gun shop.

I was looking at a S&W M29 .44Mag (beautiful specimen, too).  My hands
are of a strange size, apparrently - I can hold the M29 w/o problems
(haven't fired one yet, tho :-( ), but my hands aren't big enough for me
to squeeze the trigger with my thumb on the hammer, to allow the hammer
to drop, nice and gently, down.

I wouldn't use this drill even if my hands were large enough.  I saw a
guy try it with a loaded revolver, and he wanted to uncock the thing.
His thumb slipped off of the hammer (luckily, it was aimed downrange).
Because of that, to uncock a gun, the thumb of my off hand is ALWAYS in
front of the hammer, between it and the firing pin, when I uncock a
pistol.

Back to my stupid trick:
I'm about to uncock the m29, when my friend trips and bumps into me as I
pull the trigger.  My thumb slips most, but not all, of the way from in
front of the hammer.  The hammer then proceeds to slice open my thumb.

On the thread in general:  I'm saving and printing every post, as a
sort-of safety manual for my reading, and my friends, but especially for
anyone I may be introducing to shooting.

--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:38 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Aug14.041513.15346@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com 
(Peter Cash) writes:

#.... The main reason I _never_ use WD40 on a gun is that it is a
#penetrating oil. If you get it on your ammo, it is very likely to get into
#the case and contaminate the primer. It will then no longer go bang. In
#fact, I use WD40 to deactivate primers in cases that I've botched up while
#reloading. 

I don't use WD40 (Water Displacer 40) on the mechanisms of guns because
it is a gumming oil - it will gum up the works if it sits in there long
enough.  If you keep adding fresh WD40, it won't gum up because the fresh
stuff will dilute the old stuff.  But it isn't a wonderful lube anyway.
Almost anything else is better as a lube.  It seems to be a pretty good
water-displacer if you refresh it often enough.  I'm trying a sort of
experiment on a crummy black powder pistol (a CVA).  I'm cleaning it
only with WD40 and nothing else - no bp cleaners, no oils, nada.  So 
far I haven't gotten any rust at all which is more than I can say for
my success with the soap-and-water approach.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:01 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <lairdb.714255004@crash> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:
}In <1992Aug19.022135.16461@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
}
}[wrt Kalifornia]
}#                                                               Remember
}#that loaded magazine == loaded gun (in fact, live ammunition touching any
}#part of a gun, including the magazine, is legally the same as a loaded
}#gun).
}
}Incidenatlly, this has come up before.  I got curious, and talked 
}(informally) to several people about it, all of whom "had never heard
}such a ridiculous interpretation" (roughly the words of a local ADA.)
}He pointed out what I had thought, that the wording of the PC section
}in question is most sensibly read to say that if the magazine is out
}of the firearm, then it's not loaded.
}
}Not to say that a rabid, conviction-hungry prosecutor couldn't read it
}any way he wanted to, but does anyone have a cite?

Interpretation and enforcement probably varies a lot by jurisdiction.  The
LAPD can be downright unreasonable these days.  Every time someone walks
into The Firing Line with a loaded magazine the staff will warn them
they're in violation.  That's also what they teach in their Basic Pistol
Course.

I'm not wealthy enough to take unnecessary chances with something I paid
as much for as my guns.  Your mileage may vary.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:38:54 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <9208181424.AA14067@ferris.cray.com> jmeredit@ferris.cray.com (James Meredith) writes:
#In article <9208172150.AA11305@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> you write:
##In article <13400008@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
##
##That last is actually quite accurate.  I was hunting moles out at the
##ranch (they were tunneling right for me!)  So, I got out my .45 with
##the 185gr Federal JHP's and blasted away.  Emptied a magazine and
##didn't hit it.  I did stun it though, and when I dug it up it was
##staggering around dazed for a little bit.  I turned it over and
##noticed a rather small exit wound.  Searching the other side produced
##and entry wound.  I quickly dispatched it with a head shot, but it
##pointed out a few things to me.  One, living things can absorb a huge
##amount of damage and continue to live and move around for a while, and
##two, overpenetration, and underexpansion is a Bad Thing (tm) when
##attempting to stop your target.  While this isn't meant to be
##extrapolated from, it did point out an extreme.
##
##
#[.sig deleted]
#
#On my last trip to my dad's ranch, I had an experience opposite of this.
#I was using 185gr Silvertips and the victim was a jackrabbit.  I too
#stunned him with misses first.  However a hit from approx 20 yards
#destroyed the hip area.  Perhaps it was because I hit bone, but I
#experienced good expansion.
#

In the first instance you had a hollow point packed with dirt, works
just like a solid point. And in the the second you had shattering bone
acting as secondry projectiles.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: high capacity magazines for Colt 7.62x39
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:45 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Aug17.162425.15003@Csli.Stanford.EDU>, cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower) writes:
# 
# If anyone sees any high capacity magazines for that Colt  rifle in
# 7.62X39, please let us know. Maybe the demand for the gun is so low
# that none of the after market magazine manufactuers want to make
# them??
# 

   I sure havn't seen any. Perhaps USA Magazines or someone will come
out with them. They'll sure never be as readily available as the GI
30 rounders!  At local shows they are still going for $5.00 New in
the plastic wrapper. 


						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Action Ears: What Do Users Think?
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: CERIS.1992Aug19.164127.29225
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9208181629.AA21997@ariel.crd.Ge.Com>, by davidsen@ariel.crd.ge.com (william E Davidsen):
# 
# In article <1992Aug12.184545.12657@ttinews.tti.com>, 
# hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
# 
# | I tried a pair at the local range.  If the range is busy your conversation
# | is going to be chopped up into unintelligible bits.  If it's not, you
# | don't need them.
# 
#   Most doctors would disagree. Even a few shots can damage hearing.
#

I think he meant that you didn't need the Action Ears, not that
you didn't need hearing protection.
 
# | The best uses I can think of for them are hunting and home defense -- if
# | you've got time to get them on.  For either case, I'd recommend the stereo
# | models (separate amp and mic for each ear).  I doubt you'll find them for
# | $60.
# 
#   I want a set for trap. I don't want to hear anything when I'm
# shooting, but it sure would be nice to hear people say "pull" when I'm
# officiating. 
#

I have some Bilsom (?) single microphone ones.  I like them a
lot, but they were discontinued.  I would like stereo ones, but
they all look pretty bulky ;-{). 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)