HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:31:32 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <1992Nov16.212303.14944@news.acns.nwu.edu>, mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:
|> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
|> 
|> #	I remember a thing known as "Turkish Revenge."  Basically, if
|> #you shot somebody below the waist it wasn't considered attempted murder
|> #but only assault with a deadly weapon.
|> # <...>
|> #
|> #	[MODERATOR: Let's underscore right away what said jury would
|> #	 hear, then you be the judge about sympathy:  "So, Mr. Sorenson,
|> #	 you DECIDED to shoot my poor client in the kneecap, rendering
|> #	 unto him a permanently disabling wound with extensive pain and
|> #	 suffering
|> #		<...>
|> 
|> The one thing I've had drilled into me the most after basic firearms safety
|> (treat all weapons as if they are loaded, don't put your finger on the
|> trigger until you are ready to fire, never point one at something you are
|> not willing to have dead) is that you shoot to STOP.  You shoot, hopefully
|> at the center of mass, until the guy has STOPPED.
|> 
|> I really don't think that shooting below the waist is a good idea unless
|> that's your only good target.


Massad Ayoob recommends that when you are covering someone who *MIGHT*
have a weapon, your point of aim should be at the waist or the pelvic
area.  Most important reason is that your gun won't block your view of his
hands.  Additionally, it might have some extra intimidating effect.

If the perp. produces a contact weapon and charges, Ayoob recommends
you shoot for the pelvic area, the theory being that will have a
better chance of dropping him.  With a contact weapon, if perp. can't
reach you he can't hurt you.  If perp. produces a firearm, you need
to shift your aim back up to center of mass.

Note, this does not dispute anything said by OHM regarding the
defensibility of intentional wounding.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: btm@well.sf.ca.us (Brian Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning break-in
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:08:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: well.Bxtz13.JHx
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In article <9211160521.AA00824@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
#
#Ok, so I have this new Browning Hi-Power Practical (the 2-tone model)
#and it needs to be broken in.  I also have about 250 rounds of 
#reloads that worked well in my WWII Inglis, but are powerful enough
#to cycle the slide in my new gun.  (124gr bullet with 3.5gr of 
#Bullseye).  Retiring the Inglis to the safe, should I use a weaker
#recoil spring in the new Hi-Power, or pull the bullets and reload
#more powerful loads?
#
#The other interesting thing is that I made a batch of ammo with 3.8gr
#of Bullseye which seemed 'adequate' to cycle the slide & this is 
#the maximum load shown in the Speer number 11 manual.  For comparison:
#
#source		min	max load
#
#Speer		3.5	3.8
#Hornady		4.1	4.4
#Hercules		4.9
#
#(all loads for 124gr lead bullets & Bullseye powder)
#I've been told I need to produce around 1100fps for IPSC in 9mm
#which (according to the books) looks like a minimum of 4.4 grains.
#Comments?
#(I know, I know, REAL IPSC shooters use .45 or .38Super..... :-))
#

to change springs. If they do not cycle, a weaker spring may help.

As far as the loads you mention: I believe that you will have a hard

time finding data for lead bullets at over 1000 FPS. The Speer "max"
load you listed is only good for 962 FPS, while a 124 grain jacketed
bullet can take up to 5 grains of B~ullseye for 1148 FPS. These loads
are for Speer bullets - swaged lead that does not do well over 1000 FPS.
They deposit too much lead on the barrel at higher velocity.

Get some good hard lead bullets (or plated, or jacketed) and you can
get more velocity. For IPSC your 124 grain bullet will need to go at leeast
1010 FPS, plus a little more to be sure; I use a 147 grain bullet at
1050 FPS for extra help on the knock-down targets.
From: micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD.)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini 14 fires when not in battery
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: mica.micjrs.2.721907521
Organization: An Organization Name


This posting has nothing to do with the Mini 14 in particular but 
rather with the effects of guns firing without the mechanism being properly 
locked.Some 5-10 years ago there were reports in the Swedish hunting press 
concerning an accident where the little ring on the firing pin used to
engage the rest of the trigger mechanism slipped. The guy holding the gun 
was in the process of closing the bolt but unfortenately not completed the 
operation. The gun fired, the bolt flew out backwards almost tearing off 
his thumb and continued on into his upper arm fracturing the humerus ( the 
bone above the elbow). This is another good reason to be very careful in 
case of a misfire. (A friend of mine in the "Coastal Artillery" has 
witnessed a similar accident involving an AA-gun (shudder!), no 
fatalities but one soldier was scalped and had both of his hands blasted 
away)
/RS
Richard Soderberg, MD
Systems dpt.
MIC-KIBIC, Karolinska institutet
PO Box 602 01
S-104 01 Stockholm
Sweden

Talk Phone : +46 8 728 80 00
Facsimile  : +46 8  33 04 81
E-mail     : micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se
Xref: sparky rec.guns:16369 talk.politics.guns:24328
From: bellcore!bae.bae.bellcore.com!wind@uunet.UU.NET (Wind Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: carrying guns for self-defense
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:45:51 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Bell Communications Research

In article <9211172106.AA20337@gtephx.com>, forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
|> 
|> No, I don't have a license to carry.
|> No, I don't do it illegally.
|> Yes I do carry, both on my person (unconcealed) and in my vehicle
|> concealed in a storage compartment.
|> No license is needed in Arizona to carry as described.
|> No wonder we don't have enough car-jackings to worry about it!
|>              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                How true this is -- posted from garden state,
                                    the CAR-JACKING STATE.
__________________________________________________________________
Wind Y. Chen                   |      eMail: wind@bae.bellcore.com
_______________________________|__________________________________
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:18 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <9kFFuB2w164w@upchrch.UUCP>, upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
# fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
# 
# # I think that's burglary (entering private property with the intention
# # of committing a crime) not robbery (where the intention is theft.)
# 
# Not quite:
# 
# Burglary is the crime of breaking into and entering a building with the
# intention of stealing. Robbery is the unlawful taking of property by the
# use of violence or intimidation. If there is no breaking or entering or
# violence or intimidation then we are talking about simple theft. If they
# break into your house and steal from you using violence or intimidation,
# then it looks to me like they are guilty of burglary and robbery and
# maybe assault also. If they break into your house for the purpose of
# commiting another crime, then that is breaking & entering plus whatever
# other crimes they commit.

Burglary is even more broad than that.  Here in MN, you can get
charged with burglary for entering with intent other than to steal.  The
degrees are generally based on whether the building was a dwelling, whether it
was occupied, etc.  If you enter a building with intent to commit a
misdemeanor, it's still burglary.  Intent to steal isn't required.
 
Model Penal Code is a beautiful thing in this respect.  The common law burglary
was far too restrictive even with the modern modifications.
 
Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 7.62 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokarev & the CZ-52
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:33 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Nov20.202541.19606@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
...
#Hmmm...  And how do they all relate to the small Lugar round?  Was it
#a 7.62 mm also?  That is, is the '.30 cal' Lugar in any way the same
#as the 7.62 mm Mauser?

The .30 Luger (also known as the 7.65 Parabellum-Pistole and 7.65 Swiss) is
dimensionally similar to 7.65 Mauser/Tokarev, but is a lower power
cartridge. The overall length of the cartridge is 29.8 mm, as opposed to
34.7 mm for the Mauser. Velocity for the 6 gram bullet is 396 meters per
second, as opposed to 457 mps for the 5.5 gram bullet of the Mauser. (From
Ezell's _Handguns of the World_)

Interestingly, the .30 luger is the precursor of the 9mm parabellum. When
the Luger factory became cognizant of the demand for larger caliber pistols
by the world's military organizations, they necked up the case of the 7.65
parabellum to take a 9mm bullet.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: rtaraz@realsoon.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Taurus PT99 AF
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:48 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 16 Nov 92 23:09:16 GMT, amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) said:

In article <1992Nov16.052129.7821@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
mporter@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Matthew D Porter) writes:
#Hello, # # I've been reading this group for six months now
and I think I'm ready to #purchase my first handgun.  I
settled on a 9mm auto, and because of cost (I'm #still in
school) I would like to get a Browning Hi-Power or a Taurus.
Ok, an #acquaintance is selling his Taurus PT99AF and he's not
sure how much it is #worth.  I have not fired it yet (I will),
but I know it has only had 200-300 #rounds put through it and
it is missing a little blueing where the slide has #been
moving.  I checked the blue book values, and assuming it is
95% condition, #its average worth is $270.  My question is:
Are these values accurate?  I'm #concerned that these values
are under current retail.  I'd like to hear what #Taurus' sell
for in the real world.  I will probably check prices at my
local #gun stores as well, to get an idea of what to offer.

amirza> I've owned 2 PT99AFs, one blued, one nickel.

amirza> I picked up the nickel one for about $330 used a few months
amirza> ago.  My first one I put several thousand rounds through, and
amirza> I was very pleased with it.  The nickel one I've put almost
amirza> 1000 rounds through it and I'm just as happy.  It is a very
amirza> accurate gun, very reliable, and IMNSHO a very pretty one at
amirza> that.  If you can get it for under $350 it's well worth it.


I have a blue 92-AF and it is very accurate, the first time that I
took it to the range, I shot the bullseye from about 15 yards on my 6
shot. (giving that I had never shot a 9mm before)
I bought mine new for $350.  its a great gun. fits in my hand nicely
and has a great feel to it. (it sounds like I am talking about my
girlfriend's you know what!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
|\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
|\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: vtroll%triton.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Vincent Trollinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HELP !  STABILIZER INFO NEEDED !
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:03:04 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Can anyone tell me if they have heard of, or know anything about CELLINI
STABILIZERS ?
As far as I know, Cellini designed these and sold them out of California, I
believe.  They are absolutely awsome devices, (I've seen a video tape on them)
I would appreciate any help I could get on this subject, i.e. address for info.
etc. etc.
THANKS VERY MUCH!
E-mail to:  vtroll@triton.unm.edu

Vince
From: mcaldwel@netcom.com (Michael Caldwell)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1 Carbine questions
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Nov19.204833.27089@spectrum.xerox.com> matthews@xerox.com (Dave Matthews) writes:
#I have pretty much decided that my next toy is going to be a semi auto rifle.  I will be buying it before
#Slick takes the oath of office.  It will be used as a plinker/truck gun.  The choices have come down to
#the SKS and the M1 Carbine because toy budget has taken a beating lately. The carbine is winning
#because it has better sights, removable mags,and probably won't get banned as quickly thus better
#long term parts availability.   Since I reload the ammo cost difference between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine
#is on the order of 2-3 cents per round for plinkers.  I am also assuming that Chinese 7.62x39 will go 
#up in price or stop being imported if SKS/AK type rifles are banned.  
#
#I need some advice on picking out a carbine.  What to check, what normally gets screwed up, etc.

I got my M1 carbine a year ago and had to replace the bolt and most of it's
parts (extractor, extractor plunger, and ejector).  Now it works fine.

#What am I going to get if I have my friendly local FFL order one of the guns out of Shotgun News?
#
#I am a little too young to have carried one, my issued weapon was make by Mattel (well almost).
#  
#I have been told that the M1 carbine in not very accurate - but nobody has defined what not very
#accurate means.  Are they good enough to hit a woodchuck at 100 yards?  

I can hit a 2-liter pop bottle at 50 yards everytime.

#How about cast bullet loads?  I have seen hard cast .30 carbine bullets advertised for about $30/1000.

Where?  I want some.  Please email me (mcaldwel@netcom.com).

#Will I get heavy leading from these?
#
#Will 30 round mags work with the M1 carbine magazine catch or do I need to upgrade it to the M2 catch?

30 round mags work great in a M1 carbine!

#Any pet loads?  The books all seem to list about 12-14 grains of 2400 with 100-110 grain bullets.
#
#The current price seems to be about $140 + shipping + $10 for paper work.  Does anybody know of any
#better deals or want to make a private sale on a shootable carbine?  
#
#Is there any reason to go with an SKS over the M1 carbine?

Not in my opinion.

#Dave 	(Matthews@Xerox.Com will not work for incoming mail.  Please use DMatt.Henr801h@Xerox.Com)
#

Michael
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: B-Square Scope mount for M-96 Mauser
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:31:59 GMT
Organization: who knows

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes...
#I've found a B-Square scope mount advertised for the M-96 Swedish Mauser
#for $50. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience with this
#product. 
# ...
#Specifically, I'd like to know how hard it is to affix this mount, and how
#satisfied you were with it. 

I tried to use the B-Square on my 96 with unsatisfactory results.  The
main purpose of using this mount is to shoot at a local club at 600 yds and at
Camp Perry at 1000 yds in the any sight/any rifle category. First the scope is
placed so high and the comb of the issue stock is so low that you use the side
of your chin for a stock weld.  I used a Burris 10x intermediate eye relief
scope and found the field of vision extremely limited, making a good stock weld
near impossible.  Also the mount itself is not secure since it attaches to the
sight leaf allowing some perceptible rotational movement in the windage
direction around the sight leaf attachment point; I used a shim between the
leaf and the sight base to help minimize this problem.  Another problem of base
movement occurs during recoil, where the whole base and scope rotates in the
windage direction; I tried to minimize this by wrapping a plastic tie around
the base and stock.  I think that the poor stock weld can be solved by using
another stock with a higher or adjustable cheek piece. I do not have a solution
in stopping the base movement problem; maybe a call to B-Square may help.
From: news@newcastle.ac.uk (NEWS system)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Anti-terrorist rifle...?
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:16:18 GMT
Organization: Computing Laboratory, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU.

In article <1992Nov13.041025.5904@netcom.com>, douglas@netcom.com (Douglas Mason) writes:
From: n0an7@turing.newcastle.ac.uk (H.S. Doyle)
....STUFF DELETED...
#
#The other one was more interesting -- it was a .308 caliber gun in one of
#those bullpup-looking stocks, made out of some type of polymer looking
#plastic.  While at first it just looked like one of those cheap Ruger
#conversion bodies, I looked again and it actually looked like some type of
#business-only gun. 
#
#While I was there another guy asked about it and they guy said that it was
#a .308 caliber anti-terrorist gun.  With the pretty hot optics that were
#mounted on it the price was like $3500 or something like that.  They guy
#was talking about how the SWAT teams and the like that use it prefer the
#.308 over the .223 for longer distance sniper use due to it's ability to
#not fly all over the place after striking a target and it's better ability
#to fly straight with windage. (??)
#
#Anyone have any idea what the hell kind of gun this could have been?  I
#saw another one sitting in a case that looked about as radical with the 
#somewhat square body except the body seemed to be made of a wood rather than
#a polymer and the price was (with optics) $5500.  Ouch!
#
#-Doug
#
The bullpup one you're talking about has to be the Walther WA-2000 sniper rifle. It fires something like a 10.6 gram slug at 980mps and is the most advanced sniper rifle around. Not sure of the weight off the top of my head but I think it was under 15 pounds. The Walther design team picked .308 cal because it was the most powerful load widely available in that calibre range, and apparently the rifle is *extremely* accurate, and has a muzzle brake that eliminates 50% of the recoil with no reduction in accur



acy. Nice gun if you've got the cash!

 ******************************************************************************
      _L_________________++      "Neil; are you going to make the tea, or
     [_____   [__] ]]]   ]        am I going  to smash your face in?"
      ^----------+-+,   ]         Vyvyan - The Young Ones.
                 L_L| |||
                    | |||     "If only you could see what I've seen with   
                    | |||      your eyes." - Roy Baty, Bladerunner.
                     L___|       EMail: H.S.Doyle@uk.ac.newcastle     
 ******************************************************************************
From: C96@vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hungarian Model 61 .380ACP?
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:09 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany

In article <dylqbs-@lynx.unm.edu>
boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman) writes:

    I've been seeing some ads for these pistols in _SGN_ for about
  $130, and they look like quite a deal - PPK clones with alloy frame/
  steel slide, in .380 ACP instead of 9x18 Makarov.  Has anyone on the
  net had a chance to shoot one of these yet?  I'd be interested in
  impressions, opinions, whatever, from anyone who has even handled one
  of these.

I haven't handled them, but for information:
Price for the R 61 model (the PPK clone, so to speak) is 159,- Deutsche Mark
here (about US-$ 100,-) and it's being advertised only in 9mm Makarov.
   However, its elder sibling, the PA 63 (PP clone) can be had either in
9mm Makarov (169,- Deutsche Mark, including spare mag) or in 9mm kurz/.380 ACP
(for 298,- Deutsche Mark). Both are sold by Frankonia Jagd (largest mail
order house here) or other major dealers.

Greetings from Germany,
Alexander Eichener
<c96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
From: carmi@ipld01.hac.com (Aviram Carmi)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: New manufacture SKS vs 1950's millitary issue
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:13 GMT
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Company - Canoga Park, CA


I would like to know any pros/cons about the above two rifles.
Don't say buy them both, because I did :-) (each one was $129)

The millitary issued one has a blade bayonet while the new one's is round.
I was also told that the millitary issue has a milled triger group.

I would like to know more about these two rifles.

Thanks,

-- 
              ___/    _/     _/  _____/   carmi@ipld01.hac.com
             _/ _/    _/    _/    _/      Hughes Missile System Company
            _/  _/    _/   _/    _/       M/S  262/C64
______/    ______/    _/  _/    _/        P.O. Box 7928
          _/    _/    _/ _/    _/         Canoga Park, CA 91309-7928
         _/     _/    ___/  _____/        (818) 702-3179
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:32:32 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <1992Nov16.112309.1032@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:
#...
#IMHO, the best course of action is to leave  a  suspect  a  clear
#possibility  to  escape.  If I found somebody inside my flat, I'd
#yell "GET OUT  HERE  OR  I  SHOOT  YOU!  OUT  NOW!",  instead  of
#"FREEZE!" or something similar.

One more question on this one. If I do offer the bad guy an option
to leave and he does leave, what should I tell the cops after all
is over? Should I tell them the whole truth including that I've offered
the bad guy an option to leave?

Thanks.

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions