From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 11 Apr 92 10:48:59 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

I'll reply shortly. Sorry - I spent a long time trying to figure out an
answer to all your questions and accusations, but it simply didn't manage.
I didn't mean to insult you or anything like that.  
Agav, lakach li kama zman la'avor et haka'as :-)
Check Bruce Tiffany's reply also.

 >*** EOOH ***
 >From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
 >Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 >Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
 >Date: 6 Apr 92 21:35:28 GMT
 >Reply-To: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
 >Distribution: alt
 >Organization: Swarthmore College
 >Nntp-Posting-Host: hemlock
 
- about Jews and Judaism

We must make a difference between the two meanings of, say, Jewishness
1. the nation, 'Am Israel' (in a literal, physical sence)
2. religion

The reason why Jews have survived, is that they are God's chosen people/
nation, as I mentioned already. It has nothing to do with the religion.
the reason why all forms of present-day Judaism (excluding messianics) are
called 'Judaism' is anti-semitism (which is the direct result of hating God;
although I don't understand Christian anti-semites at all). Not all Jews
even practise "post-temple" Judaism, e.g. seculars, messianics and those 
who have become Hindus or whatever. Still they all are called Jews (by 
nationality), except messianics (at least in the Ministry of Interior in
Israel).

- About Teshuvah and Atonement

I checked these words from a couple of large dictionaries.
Here are the basic meanings:
Teshuvah = answer, reply; return; repentance
Atonement = Kapparah, Kippur, Kippurim (shoresh CAF-PE-RESH)
Day of Atonement = Yom haKippurim

 >  Especially in cases of sins committed against another person, hte
 >person must ask forgiveness from the wronged party, and make amends.  that
 >is the payment for the sin.
  
What about against God?

 >About the "current system" I mentioned:  Yes, when the era of the Temple
 >came to an end, Judasim had to deal with the fact that the Temple was no
 >longer available as a focus for ritual and observance.  So a new system of
 >practice had to be adopted, so there was a new system for atoning for sins,
 >among other things.

This stuff is contradictory with Tanach. God doesn't change. His Word 
doesn't change. If you believe in something that is contradictory with
Tanach, you've been cheated.


 >> Don't forget that the first three commandments (Deut. 5:6-15) deal with
 >> direct responcibility to God, not to other people. You can't get your
 >> sins against God forgiven without a sacrifice. What you say above, is 
 >> not based on Tanach.

 >That's true; it's not based _entirely_ upon the Tanach.  But Judasim is not
 >based entirely on the Tanach.  there are many layers of interpretations
 >(Mishnah, Gemarah, Shulchan 'Aruch, commentaries, Shu"t =questions and
 >answers, and so on and so forth. . .) that have aquired the weight of law,
 >and sometimes supersede or reinterpret the Tanach.  

Supersede? beTanach Torah shevichtav !!!!

- About the Messiah

Is. 53:4-5 'Surely he took up our infermities and carried our sorrows,
    yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
    But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our
    iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and
    by his wounds we are healed.'

John 10:24-25 'The Jews (in this context Pharisees; a lot of Jews *did*
    believe Jesus) gathered round him, saying, "How long will you keep 
    us in suspence? If you are Christ (Mashiach), tell us plainly."
    Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles
    I do in my Father's name speak for me..."


 >And "Ad Bo Hamashiach" (until the coming of the messiah) is a
 >figure of speech in modern, secular Israeli Hebrew, which basically means
 >"for a long time" or "forever and ever".
 
I'll write for you the whole song of Nurit Galron, so you can decide 
yourself what means 'ad bo hamashiach' in this context. (I guess I don't
need to translate it.)

Gever lo gever, isha lo isha
Osim ahava, chosfim shadaim
Bli partsuf, min, ufanim, kmo beKabbala
Bemagia shchora, hapnim nosher
Meabdim et hapanim...

Gever lo gever, isha lo isha
Bapanim regesh met
Be'evreihem hatchusha, hamoach male
Veratson tov, aval yoter befachad
Meabdim et hapanim...

Ve'efshar lishmor et habtuliyut harigshit ad bo haMashiach
Vehu yavo, haisha tihye isha, hagever gever.

- About crucifixion

 >Come on, it was the Romans who crucified him.  Crucifixion was a Roman form
 >of execution of criminals, not a Jewish one.  The Jews would have had him
 >stoned, has they wanted to kill him.

You are right. In a technical sense it was Romans. And that the Jewish 
style was to stone. And also that the nails were in his wrists.

In fact, the Pharisees tried on several occasions to stone him, and also at
least once to push him down from a cliff. (E.g. John 8:59, 10:31)
But they didn't manage, because Jesus was to die in a different way, so 
that his blood would be poured out. That was needed to the atonement of
sins. 

About that, who killed him, I would say *we all*. Jews wanted to get him
crucified instead of Barabbas, when Pilate gave them the opportunity to
choose. And Pilate, representing the Gentile world, had an opportunity
to let him go when he noticed Jesus was innocent, but he didn't do that.
You see, the whole point, why Jesus came to earth, was to die.

- About love and hatred

 >> When Jews don't have a true relationship with the living God, which
 >> can only be achieved through Jesus, they can never forget and forgive
 >> Holocaust, Inquisition, Crusades etc. So, they have hatred in there
 >> hearts (I admit I overdid a bit when saying that there hearts are filled
 >> with it.) Hatred towards Germans, Arabs, English (from the time of the
 >> mandate)...you can choose. In general, hatred towards all others but 
 >> Jews, i.e. towards "Christians". Only God himself can take it away
 >> totally. And through Jesus He gives us love instead.

 >You will find that everyone hates someone.  Why should we forget the
 >Holocaust?  if we forget, then we cannot fight to ensure that it never
 >happens again.  Even so, I think you are overdoing this hate business just a
 >bit.  Not all Jews, or even all Israelis, hate all Germans, Arabs, British,
 >etc.  Christians do not have a monopoly on love.

I meant we must forgive, but not forget. And that's impossible without God.
We must *never* forget! (BTW do you know that there are thousands of 
neo-nazis in Germany and France; I don't know the situation in USA.)

Let's see what Yochanan haShaliach writes to believers about love:
1 John 4:7-21 "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes 
    from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
      Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
      This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and
    only Son into the world that we might live through him.
      This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and
    sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
      Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one
    another.
      No-one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives 
    in us and his love is made complete in us.
      We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given
    us of his Spirit.
      And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to
    be the Saviour of the world.
      If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in 
    him and he in God.
      And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love.
    Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
      In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have
    confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like
    him.
      There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because 
    fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect
    in love.
      We love because he first loved us.
      If anyone says, "I love God", yet hates his brother, he is a liar.
    For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love
    God, whom he has not seen.
      And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love
    his brother." 

 >-->Daniel Pedersen  -  Keren's Daddy
 >
 >	dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu	pedersen@engin.swarthmore.edu
 >======================================================================
 >Highway sign on I-10, AZ: "Federal Prison - Do Not Pick Up Hitch-Hikers"
 >	50 yards later: "Campground	Next Right"
 >
 >"Why do you kill people?"   -   "I am a terminator."  [Terminator 2]
 >======================================================================
 >

Ohevet otcha. Da"sh leKeren.

- Laura
--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
                                                                 
Newsgroups: alt.messianic