From: ae553@yfn.ysu.edu (David Jameson)
Subject: Re: Near Death Experiences
Reply-To: ae553@yfn.ysu.edu (David Jameson)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 12:34:06 GMT


In a previous article, mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath) says:

>In article <1992Oct13.135608.19568@news.ysu.edu>, ae553@yfn.ysu.edu (David Jameson) writes in part:
>|> and saw what was happening.
>In these cases, it is possible that the ND person could have picked up
>information from their senses, even though they were in a coma.  That
>is, she might have heard the events, and then could visualize them.
>This is simply to say that care must be taken in assessing what the
>person "could not possibly have known".

This is true.  When sleeping, the senses aren't shut off -- they are
just routed through the subconscious.  The same could apply to people
in a coma.  That's why I chose the heart-attack victim as an
example (although there were about four other "out-of-body" NDEs in
the actual programme) -- the woman's heart had stopped beating for
a few minutes so it's doubtful that her brain would have been able
to get _any_ information from the outside world.


>|>   The woman was a bit sceptical and just thought that the patient had been
>|> hallucinating.  The patient then told her that, while out of her body, she
>|> had been up to the third floor of the building and had seen an old
>|> tennis shoe there, and asked the woman to go and get it.  Knowing that she
>|> wouldn't find anything, the woman went to look for the shoe.  After
>|> looking for a while she noticed a blue tennis shoe sitting outside on a
>|> windowsill.  She took it down to the patient, holding it behind her back,
>|> and asked the patient what color it was.  The patient said blue.
>This story is typical of many such wonders--unverifiable.

True, but that is also the case for most experiences like this.

>|> It is impossible to say this experience was a simple hallucination or dream,
>|> the only other "scientific" explanation being that both people are lying.
>Which experience?  The blue shoe? 

Yes.

>There are many posisbilities: the person telling it might believe it, but
>be mistaken.  The person telling it might have heard it from someone who
>believed it, but was mistaken.  The story may have been distorted or
>improved in the telling.
>
>Perhaps the patient put the shoe on the ledge herself to back up what
>she "knew" she saw.  Perhaps somebody else put the shoe there to 
>"reconstruct" what they "knew" has happened.
>
>Note also that seh said there was an old tennis shoe on the third floor.
>If the building is a hospital, there are tennis shoes on EVERY floor
>on the staff, and in thelocker rooms.   And, notice that the shoe
>was not on the third foor but OUTSIDE the third floor.  So a guess that
>could hardly fail to be wrong was, in fact, WRONG.  Amazing.
>
>All I'm driving at is that there are PLENTY of hypotheses besides
>the ones you consider.
>

I think she might have said "on the roof of the third floor" but I'm not
sure.  Anyway, like you say, it's impossible to verify what really
happened.

>|>   Some people might say "these people weren't _really_ out of their
>|> bodies -- they were just using some kind of telepathy/clairvoyance/etc. to
>|> get information that wouldn't be possible using the normal five senses".
>|> Would this be possible whenever a person's heart has stopped beating
>|> (i.e. no oxygen being transported to the brain)?  Is it possible for
>|> neurons to keep firing even after being deprived of oxygen for a few
>|> minutes?  This would apply for all the NDEs i.e. if the "light at the
>|> end of the tunnel" is purely a result of brain activity then obviously
>|> a lot of neurons will need to be firing -- would this be possible when
>|> the oxygen supply to the brain has been shut off?
>Yes, definitely.  In fact, this is a very likely physiological model of
>the NDE.  And from what is know of comas, people can receive information
>from their ordinary senses, even though they are apparently unconscious
>for a long time.  So, you don't have to invoke ESP to account for people
>hearing conversations when they are unconscious, this is know to
>happen through the ears.  (This is why well trained nurses are very
>polite, kind, and positive to folks in comas--they know that if and
>when the patient wakes up they might well remember.)

Are you sure about this?  In a coma this wouldn't be any problem but
are you sure that the brain can function for extended periods without oxygen?
e.g. after a heart-attack.  In the programme, one surgeon said it was
impossible.  I don't know whether this is true or not as I'm not a
neurobiologist.

Dave. 
-- 
 ------------------------------------------
| David Jameson, Email : ae553@yfn.ysu.edu |
 ------------------------------------------