From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 15 Oct 1992 16:08:15 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <5PHNsB1w163w@peewee>, peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer) writes:
|> In article <1bh8deINN2a7@early-bird.think.com>, shaig@think.com (Shai Guday) writes:
|> 
|>         >First of all, the Mossad does not operate within Israel, so get your
|>         >facts straight before your post rubbish.
|> 
|> I know this.  But if I said the "IDF" or "Arab task force", you'd complain about
|> the Mossad anyway.  This saves me from having to read more of your lies.

First of all, what specifically do you claim I lied about?
Please feel free to point out a single false statement I made.

|>         >As to their capture, one of my gripes with the system is that they
|>         >are not allowed to be confronted with the material against them
|>         >nor is their counsel given adequate time or facilities to prepare
|>         >their defence.
|>
|> Can you say "Ron Arad"?  I *knew* you could.  Personally, I'm *GLAD* that the
|> Israelis do NOT use a U.S.-style Constitution right now.  They'd get taken ad-
|> vantage of by the Arabs, and by the leftist "intellectuals" such as Shai.

Ron Arad has nothing to do with this, and waving this is little more
than a red herring.  To forestall your upcoming remarks, his treatment
has been reprehensible and can not be condoned.

On the other hand, I for one do not feel that "two wrongs make a right".
If by waving this you seek justification, well I have news for you -
even Israeli law condemns that notion.

As to being a leftist "intellectuals" (sic), for your information
I served 3 years with the IDF, one of which was in Lebanon.  I have
served reserve duty for one month each year up to this year.

I am not a "leftist", though coming from the far right it seems
that everyone you disagree with must be, and I am honored to be
termed an intellectual.

In contrast to others here however, I am not an armchair warrior
espousing policies for which other will have to bear the burden.
I have been there, and I know.

If you lived in Israel for any period of time and knew anything
about the legal system you would know that the lack of a
consititution poses difficult problems for civil legislature
as well as the judicial system.  You would also know that it is
irrelevant as the palestinians are tried before military
courts which and such a constitution would not neccesarily
apply there.

Of course, if you wish to continue cutting your nose to spite
your face go ahead.  Oh, I forgot, you don't live there anyway.

|> If you wanna talk about gripes with the system, which Arab country should we
|> start with?  Israel's system shines like a BRIGHT LIGHT compared to the legal
|> system in every Arab country.

Yeah, and its a glow-worm compared to the west.  There is room for
major improvement, and putting it off by saying that there are other
systems worse off is the epitome of failure to deal with it.

|>               From me:
|>               Doesn't stopping the settlements in the territories count at all?
|>               How about their lifting of the ban on contact with the PLO?  What
|>               about allowing foreigners to represent the Palestinians in the
|>               peace negotiations?  These are all tangible, relevant steps
|>               toward peace that Israel has taken in the past few months.
|> 
|>         From Shai:
|>         Yes, these are steps that are tangible and go towards peace, the
|>         only hope I have is that they are not "too little, too late".
|> 
|> Well, well.  You admitted that Israel has taken STEPS TOWARD PEACE.  Now tell me
|> what steps the other sides have taken?  The Gulf Cooperation Council and Egypt ex-
|> cepted, since they're all ignoring the boycott, soon to publicly announce so.
|> Come to think of it...the hell with the rest.  If they wanna hate Israel and the
|> West and every "filthy capitalist pig" nation, let 'em live on dirt floors with no
|> running water, if that's what they really want.

I have no problem admitting that Israel has taken steps towards peace,
I only say that it should do its utmost to gain peace, not merely
pay lip service as the previous gov't did.  Israel could have gained
much more if the same concessions were made in time.  Of course,
I am not holding my breath expecting you to understand that.