HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gamers who Dislike Games they Don't play
Date: 6 Sep 92 07:04:17 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

sl930@cc.usu.edu writes:

> Along the lines of this same subject, ten years ago I was a die hard AD&D
> player.  To me, that was the only game out there.  Nothing else was any good,
> and I never saw any reason to leave it.  I dismissed other games as copies or
> take offs which I wouldn't touch. Then I finally had a friend convince me to
> try another game, and I had a nice surprise.

I had the same experience.  I even defended AD&D against other systems in
debates...until I actually tried another system.  :)

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 13 Sep 92 07:28:09 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

gdg019@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre) writes:

> The game has a level system. I hate it already. At least with Shadowrun elves
> you can play anything you want, rather than having an entirely
> two-dimensional race of creatures. Orion Rogue? An entire planet of thieves?

Hmmm, I didn't notice that the system had levels.  I was wondering about whole
planets of aliens sharing only one occupation, but the poster did say that it
was _possible_ to deviate from that racial occupation, so I gave him the
benefit of the doubt.

I didn't want to be _too_ mean.  :)

> Psionics is just another word for sci-fi magic. Every game seems to feel the
> need for some system where the players get to control things without actually
> touching it. Why?

I don't know, but in the long debate on psionics in SF games a while ago,
several people responded with something along the lines of "psionics is an
obligatory part of SF games", with no real justification behind it.  I
convinced the designer of Legacy to drop psionics from the rules.

> Now, where have all you LEGACY players gone?

We've been busy helping get the rules ready in order to get a small print run
off in time for a local game convention (last weekend).  The three
mini-adventures went over really well, with the players of one adventure
scrambling to try to get on the alternates list for the game the next day.  :)
I watched one adventure (scientific research beneath Ganymede's ice layer)
finish, and three of the five players went digging for money to buy a copy of
the rules (the fourth won a copy).  One of the players was quite young (ten?)
and said "It was great...though the science parts were a bit boring."  The
other players were university students (including honour's science programs)
immediately countered with "No, those parts were great!  That's what science
realy is!"  BTW, that young player, despite his complaints of "boring science",
ended up begging to buy the last copy the designer had.  All in all, Legacy
seemed to be received quite positively at the convention.

The designer is doing a few minor corrections and last minute fine-tuning
before doing a large print run.  He's hoping to have it sent to the printers at
the end of the month.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Keywords: TW2000
Date: 13 Sep 92 10:25:13 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Sep13.060829.8129@fang.att.com> bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer) writes:
>Let's say Chuck "Black
>Death" Licata walks into a building with his M1911 in hand.  Suddenly, a
>Soviet soldier enters the room.  Chuck raises his automatic pistol and
>fires off one round which strikes the Soviet in the head.  Let's  say
>this Soviet is named "Androv the Average" which means he has a constitution
>of 5 (on a scale of 1 to 10).

  Is the Russki a PC or an NPC?

>That means he has a 10 hit points for his head.

  If he is an NPC he has 20 points total, but head hits count double.

>Chuck inflicts an average amount of damage (3.5 pts per die) for a total of
>7 points.  Androv has received a "slight wound" according to the rules.

  14 (2*7) points for an NPC means serious wound aka incapacitated.

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
From: z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why TW2000 eats wormy dog turds.
Date: 15 Sep 92 05:05:10 GMT
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Sep14.203219.9748@news2.cis.umn.edu>, thornley@micro.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.120133.932@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.060829.8129@fang.att.com>, bcd@fang.att.com (Brendan Dwyer) writes:
>>> 
>>>     TW2000 has got some major flaws to it.    Next, a
>>> M1911 .45 cal pistol does 2D6 of damage per round.  
>>
>>	Actually, a .45 ACP does only 1d6, same as a 9mm P or .32 ACP.  A
>>friend of mine pointed out that with doing maximum damage, you can't kill a
>>generic character with a pistol round to the head. Um, right.
>>
> Yup, and in Car Wars you can't commit suicide with one pistol [1].  The
> question is, how relevant is this to the game?  I thought TW2000 was supposed
> to be a grim-and-gritty near-future semi-holocaust game, in which case the
> combat should be bloody, but then I never played it.

> [1] Characters have four damage levels:  fine, wounded, unconscious, and dead.
> A light pistol does one point of damage, a heavy pistol does two.  If you use
> either pistol alone, you pass through unconsciousness before death, and cannot
> finish the job.  You need to heal halfway from the first attempt with the
> heavy pistol, or use the light pistol first, or wear body armor (which absorbs
> the first three points of damage, and thus changes the parity), or something
> like that.


	Well, I can accept that in Car Wars, since its really a war gam of
vehiclular combat, where the driver/gunner isn't that important. In an RPG,
however, I find it a little more irritating.

	Also irritating in T:2000 is that a 3-round burst is just as inaccurate
as firing full-auto, when it really is a bit better.

Brandon Cope
From: v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Real Sci-Fi Games
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BuF9Dp.7x6@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes...
> 
>>v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:
> 
> 
>>      Eridani: Warriors dedicated to the perfection of the Self.
>       ^^^^^^^
> 
>       Gee, sound familiar to anyone else?
> 
> 
>Axly

	Yeah, it's a part of a name of a star system. So?

Bluerazor
From: v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Foto...Taking pictures again, and Happy for it!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Legacy, what is?
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:21:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <15120@mindlink.bc.ca>, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) 
writes...
> 
>Legacy is skill-based, and character generation takes the character through
>education and career choices.  The rules system unobtrusively defines what can
>be done, and what the results of some actions are, with other aspects of
>gaming, such as planning and character interaction being more important.  The
>rules are simple and elegant, handling most actions without needing to refer to
>special rules or to consult charts.  While the game doesn't emphasize combat,
>it doesn't ignore it; the combat rules provide for fairly detailed, deadly
>combat, handled quickly and without a lot of charts.

Sounds reminiscent of FGU's Space Opera

>I have an overview of Legacy, which I'll send to you and anyone else who
>requests it.  I've been holding off posting announcements about Legacy until it
>is actually printed in significant quantities.  There was a trial printing a
>few weeks ago, and the designer wants to do a bit more editing and fine tuning,
>and I think has decided to change the format from single-column to a more
>readable double-column.  He's hoping to send it to the printers at the end of
>this month.  I'll post in .announce as soon as it is actually available for
>ordering.
>--
> 
>Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca

Got the overview in EMail this morning.  THANKS!  Please keep me informed on
the progress of the game.  Sounds interesting!

Skeksis
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Keywords: The best
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:55:53 GMT

>		GURPS - Get real. Want to play a generic system which 
>	requires you to buy an infinite supply of supplements? I like 
>	my games specific.

Sure, there are advantages to a "specific" system (like less thought required
for the GM to set up a campaign). But think about the huge variety of science-
fictional universes out there - if you find a cool sf novel that inspires ideas
for role-playing in your mind, or if (perish the thought) you think of a neat
idea *yourself*, the only published piece of rpg material around that will give
you any help setting up the campaign that *you* want to run is GURPS/Space. (At
least, the only one I know of.) Just an example of the beauty of GURPS.

Drin

--
-----------------
Gutted - Flame NA
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Time and judgement
Date: 6 Sep 92 08:19:37 GMT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <Bu4oLr.CzJ@acsu.buffalo.edu>, 
 v054nn84@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu writes:
> I am not familiar enough with GURPS to be able to comment on the system at all,
> much less intelligently, but no matter what game I am refereeing I always try
> to moderate the combat with some sense (both common and cinemagraphic) to allow
> players to move and adjust. 

This is a great point IMO. A little GM know-how and a few house rules can 
go a long way toward fixing bugs in RPGs. If I am GMing along, going by the
rules and something perverse suddenly happens (or startes to happen), I 
look at the rules. If the rules allow something REALLY weird to happen, then
the rules are out the window and for that instance, you just well, improvise.

One thing interesting with Matt's views is that while he asserts AD&D is 
more realistic than GURPS (in one way or another), the thing that acually
keeps surfacing is that there are certain aspects of reality that both
systems have problems with. Consider:

Both GURPS and AD&D allow PCs to take more damage than real people could.

AD&D justifies this unrealistic occurance by saying that PCs have time
to recover from wounds during combat.

GURPS justifies the same thing by applying certain rules to PCs who are
wounded. 

In both cases, the games are sacrificing reality for fun, and both games
apply a glossy coat of game mechanics to justify it. Is one system more
realistic? No, both are unrealistic (in certain ways), but I would argue 
that GURPS has rules which are more ``glossy'' (i.e. believable).

Okay,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chadd VanZanten SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU + ``Charlie don't surf!'' --Big Duke in 
Francis Coppala's Apocolypse Now
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Time and judgement
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:11:03 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

In article <1992Sep10.153256.26698@news.columbia.edu>, jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
> 	Yes, there are some cases where the 5 second phase is unrealistic. 
> But I think that for the vast majority of cases, it is more realistic and 
> playable than a 1 second phase. 

I don't really agree, but if folx are bothered by combats taking too
little game time then why not change perceptions instead of adding
rules? When asked how long a X-round fight took, roll Xd6 for the
answer. Quick. Easy. Satisfies the rules-lawyers. You can still keep the
conceptual one second turn, but people no longer react at full speed.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Keywords: The best
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:51:15 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <BuC6KL.Fpw@acsu.buffalo.edu> v057qkmm@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Bluerazor) writes:
>[Much Hyperbole deleted]
>
>	So go ahead, try toget that fifty bucks. Show Me a better combat
>system. Oh and by the way it has to be a published game. 

Since 'best' is always a subjective assessment, this can be considered
a fradulent offer.  Obviously this person has decided that this game
is the 'best' and will not change his mind for any reason. ;-)

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: Time mechanics, healing and aiming
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 02:29:40 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <1992Sep11.143001.58825@cc.usu.edu> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>In article <RICHV.92Sep11121326@hpinglj.cup.hp.com>, (Rich Van Gaasbeck) writes:
>> millerl> GURPS is descended from a tactical one-on-one
>> millerl> combat boardgame.
>> 
>> Aha!  So I'm not the sole person on the planet that remembers Melee.
>
>I thought the game was Man to Man or Men on Men something like that. Any
>SJG vets out there?

The prototype for GURPS combat was _Man to Man_.  However, Steve
Jackson freely admits that the ancestor of GURPS is _The Fantasy Trip_
which is composed of _Melee_ and _Wizard_.

>Chadd VanZanten SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU + ``Gentlemen!  You can't fight in 

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
From: davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis)
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Keywords: The best, the worst
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:35:10 GMT

v057qkmm@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Bluerazor) writes:

Bluerazor's critique of Battlelords hardly leaves me wanting to go out and
pay 50 clams for it.  It has 12 races, when both Star Hero and GURPS/Aliens
offer an unlimited number.  (Note: he stated 'COOLEST' races, which hardly
makes the critique objective as he claimed...)  He praised the combat system
highly, pretty much on the basis that it was 'quick, efficient, and deadly.'
Well, he failed to support these with why.  Or, more importantly, if being
deadly is really a good thing.  If more deadly = better, and quicker = better,
then my combat system stating "any time a character attacks another, the
victim of the attack is killed" is best, right?  (Wrong!  It just proves
that just being deadly doesn't make it good.)  [Side note: paying 50 bucks
for a game hardly proves it's a good choice.  It only proves that a fool
and his money are soon parted.]  Bluerazor goes on to praise Battlelords
for having lots of equipment.  (160 pages worth)  This is pretty silly,
since equipment past a certian point is either trivial or repitive anyway.
He harps about how it doesn't have magic, and that is a good thing.  Once
again, this is an opinion, and hardly makes the critique objective.  His
post is full of praises for Battlelords, and lacking in reasons for them.
He notes how the system will get more historical development, more equipment,
more races, and a section on tactics.  I already noted the pointlessness of
all these races and all this equipment.  Historical development is fine for
some gamers, but I'd just trash it anyway.  A section on tactics is just
short of worthless in a supposed 'RPG'.  And, in closing, Bluerazor 
challenges me to match his 50 dallor investment.  Alright: 20 dallors buys
the Hero System Rulesbook.  It has infinite equipment, infinite races a
combat system that can be made quick and deadly (make a blaster do 30d6
killing at +10 OCV...).  No worthless background to mess up your gore-
fests.  (Read: no background that I would not use anyway, but I had to
appeal to Bluerazor here...)

In summary, I would like to thank Bluerazor for warning me not to waste
my money on this game.

-james
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2176 rec.games.frp:25129 rec.games.frp.misc:5288
From: v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Let's talk REAL sci-Fi systems
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:10:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep10.041944.29621@fcom.cc.utah.edu>, davis@news.ccutah.edu (mike davis) writes...
>v057qkmm@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Bluerazor) writes:
>: 
>: 	Ok, I'm going to objectively compare Battlelords to those OTHER 
>: so-called Sci-fi game systems out there. So listen up gamers, and flame
>: away!! I'm going to be brutally honest.
>: 
>	Lots of stuff deleted
> 
>: 	You like some other system? 
>: 		Rifts - Haven't looked over this, but if its anything
>: 	like Palladium's other stuff with SDC and MDC, I don't want to
>: 	have anything to do with it.
>: 		GURPS - Get real. Want to play a generic system which 
>: 	requires you to buy an infinite supply of supplements? I like 
>: 	my games specific.
>: 		Chart master?
> 
>	What????  I thought you were trying to sound like an expert on
>	space RPGS!!!   Where is:
>		Space Oprea
>		Mach
>		Travaller
>		Star Trek
>		Star Aces
>		Star Wars
>		Space Patrol
>		Living Steel
>		Mekton
>		FTL 2400
>		Aliens
>		And many more...?????
> 
>	Please tell me.  I must know.  How does Battlelords compare to
>	these games????  Enquiring minds want to know!!!

	1> Obviously I could not hope to have seen/played EVERY sci-fi system
available.
	2> Ok I left out a few major ones, because I do not know much about 
them, its true. However, If you wish to compare these other systems to 
Battlelords, describe them in some way. What are the system mechanics, etc?
If you can describe the system, then it can be compared to Battlelords, even
if I've never read the game (just like many others havent seen battlelords).

	3> So go ahead, post a comparison of your own or just describe the 
system and I'll provide the battlelords side.

	4> i don't claim that battlelords has better background development
than other games. It is still new and the background isnt as fully flushed
out as many established games, yet.

	Bluerazor
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Real Sci-Fi Games
Date: 11 Sep 92 07:22:15 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:

>    Ok, since you _asked_ about the races, I will give a quick summary:
> 
>      Chatilian Empath: Small "Asparagus Men" with mental powers.
>      Cizerack: Female cats with incredible agility.
>      Eridani: Warriors dedicated to the perfection of the Self.
>      Gen Humans: Genetically engineered humans.
>      Humans: What needs be said?
>      Mazians: Amoeba-like creatures with the ability to change shape.
>      Mutzachans: "Melon Heads" with the power to manipulate energy.
>      Orion Rogues: Seven-fingered humanoids who like to party.
>      Phentari: Bipedal squids that eat Humans.
>      Python Lizards: Aquatic huge reptilian beasts.
>      Ram Pythons: Jungle-dwelling miniature dinosaurs.
>      Zen Rigeln: Skeletal beings with the power to heal.

Hmmmm, sounds like a list from a bad B-grade sci-fi movie.  Humans with rubber
mask "gimmics".  Do the races and their quirks have serious bases--biological,
evolutionary, economical, etc--or do they only have shallow excuses as attempts
to justify what the developers thought was a "cool idea"?  In my experience,
the latter process usually results in weak products (aliens in this case).

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Subject: Re: Real Sci-Fi Games
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 00:34:34 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <1992Sep14.001710@cs.man.ac.uk> peterw@cs.man.ac.uk (Peter Wake) writes:
>In article <BuHyoD.4nG@rice.edu>, swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>>In article <BuHqCw.G72@acsu.buffalo.edu> v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:
>>>	No. Star trek had Green Orion Women.
>>There was a green orion slave womaN in "The Cage."
>>Orion pirates appear in "Journey to Babel." FASA considers them something
>>like hedonistic thieves. 
>
>The Orions are described in 'detail' in the Star Fleet Battles rules.
>SFB is a licensed Star Trek game, but nothing to do with FASA.

Actually, SFB has no liscence from P'mont.  Legally, it is based on
Franz Joseph's _Star Fleet Techinical Manual_ and, I belive, one of
the various map sets published during the 70s.

>Peter Wake


-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis)
Subject: Re: Real Sci-Fi Games
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 03:25:07 GMT

v057qkmm@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BABBLING SAGE) writes:

>In article <1992Sep12.201414.7875@honte.uleth.ca>, std_fleming@hg.uleth.ca writes...
>>   Hey!  Aren't "Orion Rogues" lifted from STAR TREK, too?
>> 
>	No. Star trek had Green Orion Women. And about Eridani: It's a real
>star. BL is not the same universe as Star Trek, so what if it uses Eridani?
>They're nothing like Vulcans anyhow. Both systems happened to use the real
>universe.

I find it to be unoriginal myself.  After all, Orions are the 'rogues' of
Star Trek, and Battlelords makes them rogues too.  Now, you can argue
cosmetic differences, but since they darn well knew Star Trek used Orions
in that light, why did they use the same star for thier rogues?  I can
only chalk this up to unoriginality.

-james
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2214 rec.games.frp.misc:5369
From: sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Time mechanics, healing and aiming
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:30:00 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <RICHV.92Sep11121326@hpinglj.cup.hp.com>, (Rich Van Gaasbeck) writes:
 
> millerl> GURPS is descended from a tactical one-on-one
> millerl> combat boardgame.
> 
> Aha!  So I'm not the sole person on the planet that remembers Melee.

I thought the game was Man to Man or Men on Men something like that. Any
SJG vets out there?

Okay,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chadd VanZanten SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU + ``Gentlemen!  You can't fight in 
here, this is the War Room!''   --Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove