HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: magore@icr2.uwaterloo.ca (Mike Gore)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mary and the Moderns
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:05:21 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo


	So far in this discussion of the Virgin birth I have not seen
much talk about the importance of OT prophesy where it was first mentioned 
that this manner of birth would be a sign to us - the place of birth would be 
a sign, etc.  I feel other scriptures suggest such prophesy was intended to 
be important to us. Many things were fortold about Christ life and death 
that were rejected by those who heard it at the time - I recall the lement 
"who has believed our message?..". Perhaps there is a lesson for us in 
the scriptures when we also read of those who did not believe ? 
Perhaps we should really be asking a larger question then that of the VB, 
that is, do we believe prophesy and if so which ones - why or why not???


# Mike Gore, 
# Internet: magore@icr2.uwaterloo.ca
# UUCP:     uunet!math!icr2!magore
# These ideas/concepts do *not* imply views held by the University of Waterloo.
From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mary and the Moderns
Date: 16 Dec 92 06:35:19 GMT

Michael Seimon writes:

>When I mention sperm and chromosomes, I virtually ask for the comment
>Charley Wingate supplies:

>+ I guess I've just become post-modern then; this [ the biological
>+ details game ] sees to me to be a low-grade "how many angels.."
>+ sort of speculation.

>But you see, that is precisely what calling Mary a Virgin seems to
>me to imply -- a concern for low-grade speculation that has nothing
>to do with the case.  It is like requiring transubstantiation for
>the Real Presence of Christ in the eucharist.  What has "virginity"
>got to do with Incarnation, any more than "essence & accident" have
>to do with eucharistic bread and wine?

It's right there in scripture, that's what.  I see your point about how
"divine sperm cells raises a issue if you want to pursue it; my response is,
don't pursue it.

When one starts chipping at the texts in this manner, however, one gets into
the precarious position of trying to judge the texts way too far after the
fact.  I'm not going to suggest that any doubt in any part of the texts is
fatal to belief; obviously it is not, and furthermore, I think that kind of
inerrantism runs into serious problems in the OT.  But, as I suggested at
the beginning of this, doubting portions of the gospels leads one to the
issue of why they wrote something "doubtful".  From there, speculation
breeds on speculation, and one becomes, very easliy, judge of the universe.

I am uncomfortable with Michael's position here.  At the very least it is
something which ought to be said as carefully as Michael says it, rather
than (for example) having the Bishop of Durham speaking forth in a newspaper
article.  I personnally will hew to the text and let the doubtful areas--
Holy Sperm and such-- remain doubtful.


-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."
From: eng10459@nusunix1.nus.sg (TAN CHEE LEONG)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Does God intervene?
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:10:39 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

Sungho Kim (sungho@crhc.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Hello,
: I would like to hear from Christians on the following problem.
: I see innocent victims suffer and die all over the world and see that 
: God does not do anything about it.  So I conclude he does not intervene 
: and therefore does not respond to prayers either.  What I am saying is
: he is aware of everything but decided leave everything to us.
: So, I see no point in asking God for mercy when one is sick.
: Does anybody disagree with me?
: 
First, I want to say that I will try my best to answer that question.
But if it still does not satisfy you, it is only due to my inability,
because I believe God, being sovereign, does not allow something to
happen for no reason.

God is not some cosmic kill-joy who sits in His heavenly throne awaiting
to watch the next violent movie.  He had always wanted to communicate
His love for us.  And the best way to do so was to send His Son, Jesus
Christ to dwell among us as a man.  Christ lived as a total man from
birth to death, and even death on the cross.  This leaves us no excuse
that God does not understand us.

You may still ask, "His life on earth did not make any difference to the
sufferings we see today?"  Allow me to share a passage from the Bible
with  you:

Matthew 13:24-30

Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man
who sowed good seed in his field.  But while everyone was sleeping, his
enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.  When the
wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir didn't you sow good seed
in your field?  Where then did the weeds come from?'

'An enemy did this', he replied.

The servants asked him'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may
root up the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest.
At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie
them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my
barn.'

And so while the weeds (i.e. the ills of this world) are pulled out, the
wheat (the intended good) may also be rooted up with them.  God does not
want us to suffer even more.

As to how in the world will we suffer more when the ills are eradicated
NOW, I really don't know.  But God is all knowing and He must have
evaluated before allowing things to happen

For a period of time I have been giving tuition.  Usually, the first
lesson I will ask my student, 'What do you think is the largest number
in the world?'  Quite often, they will reply with an emphatic
'infinity'.  Infinity is but an excuse of human being who is not able to
conceive the infinite world.  Hence it is really unfair to size up God,
who is infinite, with our finite mind.   Don't you think so?

In His Love,
Chee Leong

National University of Singapore
Faculty of Engineering.
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wedding Scripture Verses.
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:01:23 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Dec.11.01.48.08.1992.12789@athos.rutgers.edu> buckc@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Carolyn Buck-Gengler) writes:
_In article <Dec.6.01.57.17.1992.1706@athos.rutgers.edu> ss6349@csc.albany.edu (Steven H. Schimmrich) writes:
_>
_>   I am getting married next year and my fiancee and I would like to insert
_>some appropriate scripture readings into the ceremony (generic protestant).
_>   The minister recommended, as possibilities, Genesis 2:18-24, Corinthians
_>12:31-13:8, or John 17:20-23.
_>   Can anyone recommend any other verses they think might be appropriate for
_>a wedding? (I'm looking but it's a big book :)
_
_We used the following two verses in our wedding, Eccl. 4:9-12, and

We used the traditional scriptures a lot.  Additionally, as part of the
openning section, I (the groom) read to my bride from Song of Songs
(Song of Solomon) 2.  It is the section that goes 

    Song of Songs 2:10-13 (NIV)   ... 
    "Arise, my darling, my beautiful one, and come with me. 
    {11} See! The winter is past; the rains are over and gone. 
    {12} Flowers appear on the earth; the season of singing has 
    come, the cooing of doves is heard in our land. {13} The fig 
    tree forms its early fruit; the blossoming vines spread their 
    fragrance. Arise, come, my darling; my beautiful one, come with 
    me." 

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu      |  Love and Worship God, the Creator of the Earth. 
                          --|--   
Pro-Life!              -|-  |  -|-    Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility!     |   |   |     before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6
From: christian@geneva.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Homosexual Exegesis
Date: 13 Dec 92 07:08:25 GMT

Louie Crew is concerned that one of REXLEX' postings may have left an
incorrect impression:

REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov writes:

>Having now looked at the posting on Luti, and having now scanned ....

I believe REXLEX meant that he had looked at the postings in this
group triggered by mention of LUTI.  LUTI is a controlled mailing
list, which he is not on.  Louie does not suggest that REXLEX intended
to mislead anyone, but wanted to make sure that no one thought he was
commenting on the contents of LUTI itself.
From: EMW107@psuvm.psu.edu (Young Indy)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Seeking Advice: Friends and self
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:27:35 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


      Recently I had a rather in depth conversation with a couple of friends
in which we were discussing the feasibility of God. Now, my one friend is a
non believer in God or Jesus, and the other was at one time a Christian but
now basically is shoving it on the back burner, and doubts existance of God
and Christ. But to say the least, we had a good conversation, everyone
seemed to respect the other's opinion, and sort of agree, or at least see
the other's point of view.
      Soon after, this one friend of mine, who was all attentive while in
our little discussion group, gets on this "I have the right to do what ever
I want" trip, and it really annoys me. I guess my point is, you finally
reach someone on a common  level, then they pull that stuff. What do you
tell someone who has this attitude that I speak of above? These attitudes
are so selfish and immature, but how does one combat them?
      Also, has anyone ever doubted their faith somewhat? I know recently
I have had trying times, with all the non Christians around me, but I know
I must push on, but it is rough. I guess I just need a spiritual renewing,
or something similiar.
      Has anyone else fell into this faith rut as I have? I'm sure it's just
a test I must pass, but it seems so frustrating sometimes. Any help?



                                     -Ed

   ====================================================================
               Edwin 'Big Ed' Weiland - EMW107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
              Architectural Engineering; Penn State University
   "Oh, His children smile because they know He loves them." -King's X
   ====================================================================
From: Amy.L.Cavender.1@pop.nd.edu (Amy Cavender)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Latin Vulgate
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:08:22 GMT

I sure hope this gets through.  I haven't yet figured out how to post from
my UNIX system, our Mac version of NewsWatcher isn't working, and neither is
TurboGopher.  So I can't even go back to the original post to get an e-mail
adress so that I can respond to the poster's question that way.

Anyhow, someone asked a week or so ago about good editions of the Latin
Vulgate.  There is a good one out: BIBLIA SACRA VULGATA (BIBLIA SACRA: IUXTA
VULGATAM VERSIONEM).  It's published by the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft in
Stuttgart.  The original copyright was 1969, and it was reprinted in 1983.
For those who don't read German--not to worry, only the publication info is
in German.  Everything else is in Latin.  This edition is a bit pricey, I'm
afraid--just ubder $50.  But it's a nice hardcover edition.

I don't know how widespread the availability is in the U.S.  I do know that
it's available at our bookstore here at Notre Dame, and I'm sure they could
assist anyone who might want a copy.  Their address is:

              The Hammes Notre Dame Bookstore
              University of Notre Dame
              Notre Dame, IN 46556
Amy Cavender
INTERNET: Amy.L.Cavender.1@nd.edu
From: s37755c@taltta.hut.fi (Jochen Grandell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: "Quakers" ? what are they ?
Date: 16 Dec 92 08:19:37 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland


	
	
	Could someone give me a brief description over Quakers or
	members of "Society of friends" ?  I've found only skin deep 
	information in my encyclopedia and don't know anything e.g.
	about their current status. Some insight information 
	would be great.

	Outsiders could comment on whether they consider Quakers
	christians or not, and why.

	Jochen




Jochen.Grandell@hut.fi
From: david-s@hsr.no (David A. Sjoen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Addresses + bibliography wanted
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:01:10 GMT
Organization: Rogaland University Centre

I would like to have the addresses to the following Christian publishers:

	Loizeaux Brothers (USA)

	Bible Truth Publishers (USA)

	Zondervan (USA)

	Scripture Gift Mission (UK)

I would also like a bibliography of the writings of George Mueller
and his associates, Henry Craik and F. Wilbur(?) Chapman (including
biographies).

Answers in email, please.

Thanks in advance,

:)avid

-- 
 __________________ ___________________________________________________
| David A. Sjoen   |"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they |
| Gulaksveien 4    | follow me; and I give them life eternal; and they |
| N-4017 STAVANGER | shall never perish, and no one shall seize them   |
| Norway           | out of my hand." John 10:27-29                    |
`------------------'---------------------------------------------------'
    E-MAIL: david-s@ifi.hsr.no  (Rogaland University Centre, Norway)
From: nichael@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Latin Bibles (and CBD Plug)
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:55:06 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@bbn.com
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA

To whoever was looking for the Vulgate, the CBD catalogue includes the
following:

Biblia Sacra Vulgat, GBS Stuuttgart, 1990.
4th Edition.  American Bible Society, 1990.
1980pp.
Stock #04209    $44.95.

Novum Testamentum Latine, GBS Stuttgart,
American Bible Society, 1984, 680pp, paper.
Stock #04213   $18.95.


To anyone else who doesn't know about CBD (Christian Book
Distributors), check them out.  They're a _great_ source for books of
this nature.  They do phone/credit card orders.  I've never got
anything but excellent service from them.

Call and ask for a catalogue today.  They have two, their general
catalogue and their special "Academic" catalogue.

Phone Orders: (508)997-5000
Customer Service: (508)977-5050

Good luck
Nichael
From: christian@cs.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Re- Exegesis of NT & Hom
Date: 17 Dec 92 04:36:31 GMT

REXLEX submitted his promised treatment of exegetical issues in the
NT.  It's a useful summary of the conservative position, but is along
the line of discussions that have already occured.  So I'm not
persuaded that it makes sense to restart the discussion.  However
those who are interested will find it in my FAQ collection.  On
info.rutgers.edu, in /pub/soc.religion.christian/others/homosexuality,
you'll find it immediately following a treatment of exegetical issues
I had previously saved from the other direction.  (Frankly, I had
forgotten I even had this -- it contains answers to some OT exegetical
claims that were made here during the discussion.)
From: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Atheism -> Christianity
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:06:11 GMT
Reply-To: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Without going into all the details about how I went from being a
contented atheist to a believer, I will try to give you some idea
of what happened to me.  (Just as a base of reference, I'm 41 and
had been atheist most of my adult life after growing up in a loving,
church-going family.)

After suffering a major tragedy in my immediate family, I had a moment
when I nearly cried out (to the God I didn't believe in) for help.
I stifled that with the firm thought that, for me, any attempt to make
contact with a higher authority during time of trouble would be rather
like making up a secret friend on whom I could lean.  When the bad times
were over, I'd realize this was bogus (merely a psychological tactic
to survive) and would revert to my original condition.  I did, however,
recognize the value, whether based on reality or not, of having a faith
to see one through difficulties.  (I also had serious misgivings about
the practice of ignoring someone until one had need of them.)

As it turned out, I survived and thrived with the great assistance of
some wonderful family and friends, not to mention what I believed to
be my own inner strengths.  I was to learn later from where this help
really came.

Later, after everything was going fine, I had a significant experience
in a setting which was very meaningful to me, personally, which made
me instantly aware that I was being communicated with by God, that He
knew my unspoken thoughts, and which changed me inside in ways I could
clearly recognize.

As for ending up believing in Christ, once my eyes were opened, I was
gradually led to the Bible and, ultimately, Jesus.  I have also found
that, because of our human tendency to try to control our own lives, God
often must reduce us to ruins before we realize we can't do it alone.
In my case, because of my attitude, He used a different approach,
appropriate for me, as He does for others.

The only other thing I can say is I hope this happens to you.
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Does God intervene?
Date: 13 Dec 92 05:12:22 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha


 Asking me this today is a bit of a strain because I have had
a rotten day, but the character of God doesnt change no matter
how bad of a day Ive had!
God does help with certain situations. His wisdom coupled with our prayers
causes great works to happen. He WILL NOT ALWAYS answer our prayers with
a "yes". Sometimes it just wouldnt be good for our prayers to be answered.
If ,during the last part of World WarII someone had prayed that Hitler be
killed, nobody probably could have thought of a reason why not to have
him just drop dead by the will of God. If we examine such a prayer now
we would see that if Hitler had just "droppped dead" a mmore competent
person might have taken his place and conquered the world!
I realize this is a streach but it is an example of how the wisdom of
God might have been greater than our reasoning.
It is wrong to say God doesnt answer prayers(I did once in this article)
he does answer them,sometimes the answer is no. I will NEVER understand
why some prayers cant be granted, but I will trust that God has a plan.

-- 
 MR Shannon Saltzman
 "Is doggie heaven kitty hell?" Stephanie phoenix(age 6)
 "How does teflon stick to a skillet when nothing sticks to teflon?"
 The words of Mike Warnke.
From: pkk36438@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Polygon)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God answer my prayer, again!
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:41:42 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

ummak027@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Anson Sen Sau Mak) writes:

>	Just want to share what God did to me last few week. I was praying
>for all my term paper, readings, tests, exams which all needed to be done
>in 1 week time. it's a very heavy workload for me since I need to complete
>one book before I can start writing my paper. (also, English is my second
>language) I pray for His arrangment on my timetable, and He answered my
>prayer again! I done everything and still had time left! I know if He is
>not with me, I can't finish even 1 of the 4 assignments! praise to the Lord

	Hope you don't take it as a flame artical.  My argument that I am
going to present follows from my previous artical posted in s.r.c.

	Why did you believe it is God's intention to let you finish your
paper? If it is not God but you who made it possible to finish the paper,
then it doesn't make sense to thank God for something He didn't do for you.
It does seem to me that you assume you can decide which should be God's
wish and which shouldn't be.  How can you do that?

	I am just puzzled. 

						Peter.
From: michael@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Michael George Williams)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Is Christianity the only way?
Date: 17 Dec 92 05:11:04 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina

I am by all means a Christian, and I am not about to attempt to undermine
Christianity in any way, but I have a point to raise about the debate over
whether Christianity is the only true way to salvation and eternal life. 
My question is this:  What about persons who were never exposed to
Christianity and never even had the opportunity to be?  What about the
Native Americans who lived here for thousands of years and were never
exposed to the conventional idea of Christianity?  They were no less
spiritual than any Christian--by far, they led deeply spiritual lives and
had a true appreciation of the force which had brought them and their world 
into being.  They managed to incorporate spirituality into every aspect of
normal, everyday life, a feat which many Christians struggle with (myself
included).  The point is, I don't see how anyone can propose that they
will never be received into the Kingdom of God on the basis of not having
been a Christian if they never had the opportunity in the first place.  In
my opinion, Heaven and God are big enough to include a lot of different
people and ideas, even if they do not completely fit our idea of what is
"right" or the only way.  There have been countless generations of people
all over the world that never were introduced to Christianity because they
were totally isolated from it, and still I think they have as good a
chance as any of us as being welcomed into eternal life.  Any responses?

Michael
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Disclaimer:  I don't tell the University of North Carolina what to think,
             and they sure don't tell me.
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-- 
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"Shoot low, boys, they're riding Shetland Ponies." --- Lewis Grizzard
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