HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Gary Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Organization: Brute Force Productions
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:32:07 GMT

oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>(stuff deleted - point being that the Masons started as the Knights
  Templar and that the Templars were...
>>1) a monastic order; and
>>2) an order of knights.
>>Hence, from the outset they have restricted the membership to women.
>>It doesn't reflect blatant, modern sexism as much as a historical
>>tradition with which few present-day Masons wish to tamper. I have
>>taken this point up with Mason friends, by the way, and they agree
>>that tradition guides their hands much more so than reason.
>> 
>Reminds me of the Catholic Church which says that only men can be priests 
>since all the apostles were men.
>
That's the exact reason for it. I'm not supporting it, but it's there
to deal with, and one must first understand it before one deals with it.
>
>Why don't these Masons dress up in armor and go clunking around, if they're 
>so interested in tradition?
>
They do, in a sense... the apron dates back to the Templars, although it
was originally something else which I can't seem to recall at first.
Since the Knights Templar were outlawed by the Roman Catholic Church,
armor would have been a dead giveaway. Only the less-obvious vestiges
of the Templars, then, exist in Freemasonry.

Besides, there's no reason to believe that they will always restrict
women in the ranks... once they restricted from membership men who were
not of sound limb or health, (the reason for which also goes back to the
Templars... what good is an ill or crippled knight?) but that does not
hold today. As society slowly loosens up, and the Masons are taken more
and more at fault for the restriction, I'm sure that they will begin
considering women for membership.

Gary Mitchell - mitchell@star0.seas.smu.edu
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Santeria
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:31:35 GMT

Luis Sanchez <LSANCHE@auvm.american.edu> writes:

>Esta alguno interesado en discutir Santeria?

absolutemente, pero en ingeles por favor.

josh
From: nsj@Apple.COM (Neal Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Crowley's Soul and Annata
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:28:03 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Apr7.230921.15767@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> iew21308@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Ian E. Wickram) writes:
>
>	I don't know how found any of you are of Crowley's auto-hagiography
>but in it I have come to notice a large inconsistency (heavens no!). Normally
>these sort of things rarely bothered me about Crowley but as I am currently
>exploring Buddhism, it does.  As most of you are aware I'm sure, Frater      
>Perdurabo was want to borrow or absorb many ideas from Buddhist teachings, yet
>it seems to me like many Western sholars of the time he never trully absorbed
>the truth of Annata into practice which is a central doctrine of the Dharma.  
>Annata if you are unfamiliar with Buddhist Dharma is a rather puzzling doctrine
>to Westerners as it basically states that humans have no permanent self, or
>soul.  Yet I find Crowley constantly suggesting or expressedly stating a  
>permanence of self even though one can of course find exceptions, and even
>n accurate description of Annata in the Confessions.  I find this point highly
>troubling personally as I approach Buddhism and look back to what I've revered
>before.

Crowley's Buddhism was changed through his experience of Liber AL. If you
remember, he found a lot of Liber AL distasteful becaus of his basic
Buddhist stance. This changed over time as his Buddhism was modifed
through his "acceptance" of Liber AL.

"... there is that which remains..." Liber AL



============================================================================
name: Neal Johnson         "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
mail: nsj@apple.COM        "Love is the law, love under will." 
phone: (408) 974-6246
disclaimer: Everything stated here is disclaimed by all.
============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mayor@ic14.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Subject: Re: Where to start. Reply to questions.
Reply-To: mayor@ic14.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:08:42 GMT

In article 1232@lysator.liu.se, ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:
>
>Do you call eating the first spring grass because I felt so, magick?
>Or wearing a stone I got from my mother? The thoughts I get when I put
>on the anorack I have made myself?
>

 I would.  But that's just me.

:) cam

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:47:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr14.100434.19108@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>In article <1992Apr13.141531.16016@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr13.123402.913@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>>>In article <1992Apr12.230126.28846@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Apr12.210932.10514@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>>>>>In article <Gerald_Del_Campo.0031@sorinc.UUCP> Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:
>>>>>>In a message dated Sat 11 Apr 92 06:35, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
>>>>> 
>
>On the contrary, I've absorbed a lot.  Why is it assumed that because I 
>attack people's unwillingness to explain their magick that I know 
>nothing about it and don't understand it.  I have been practising it for
>years and have recieved useful benefits from it.
 >>
>>I'm glad you found someone to relate to.  What did they tell you that you 
>>consider to be useful information?  Not trying to be nosy here, just want to 
>>find out what reached you.
>>
> 
>Tagi was communicating with me, but has stopped since the flamewar began.
>I was also starting to get some useful info from Michael Glosson (sp?).

I didn't ask *who* you spoke with.  (I'd never ask that.)  I asked *what* 
they told you than you found useful.

> 
>What was impolite about my original questionaire?  How was it unapparent
>that I wanted to know about people's experience with magick.
> 
>Here were my questions?
  [questions deleted...]

I do not choose to answer these questions, which is why I didn't answer them 
the first time around.  

Instead, here's some advice (whether you want it or not):

1.) Maybe your lack of results has something to do with your method.  "I 
attack people's unwillingness to explain their magick" only seems to bring 
you unpleasant mail.  A different approach might work better.

2.) What's wrong with discussing magick in a way you consider to be 
irrational?

If you don't find any value in these suggestion, then I must conclude that 
any further conversations would be a waste of time.

- Peggy -
From: joshua@wiretap.wiretap.Spies.COM (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: straight A's/occult ftp/telnet
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:09:27 GMT
	<92081.115319REGHC@CUNYVM.BITNET><bahn.60@edit.mndly.umn.edu>
	<wdsJyui00VpDQOiFt1@andrew.cmu.edu>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
In-reply-to: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu's message of 7 Apr 92 08:39:22 GMT


there is some stuff on anonymous ftp at slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com

/pub/magick/*

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Ouija
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 04:10:24 GMT

phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) writes:

[Phantoms questions are responses to things I had written; since I provoked
the questions, I thought I ought to give *my* best answers.]

>I have not had this luck.  BTW, what is involved in making a Ouija board, and
>consecrating it?

For making a board:  Woodburn the letters and any symbols you wish (including
symbols of the group and/or the Diety/ies of the group) onto a piece of wood.
For consecration, use the consecration the group normally uses for ritual
objects.

>Oh, has anyone ever burned one of those puppies?  A freind of mine did, and it
>screamed...   Wierd..  Why did it do that?

I have no idea, whatsoever. :-)

>Question:  How does one prevent possesion?  How does one stay safe when
>           attempting something of this sort?

If you are not already magically experienced, then you might want to try
learning magic from the ground up--then worry about spirits.  See my note
about sex magic for my opinions about practicing magic in a *context*

IMO: magic should not be a game; it should always occur within a context--
starting with basics (self-awareness is the most basic) and gradually
working ones way up.  If there is someone who is already experienced, and is
not foolhardy or power-tripping, then it is possible to attempt more
experimental things earlier.  However, if you have someone like this, make
sure that this person is getting good support from you and the others--not
carrying everything on hir shoulders.  If they are giving to you--give back.
This might involve helping them move, taking them out to dinner, making it
clear that you will listen (without judging and keeping confidenciality) to
them when they need someone to bounce things off of, or just to blow off
steam.  This person is a *resource*, don't waste their energies on things
you can handle yourself.

End of sermon.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
               --Pug and Bran
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Distribution: world
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:08:22 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Sun 12 Apr 92 06:11, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (joshua Ge
wrote:

>In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Tim@hoptoad.uucp (tim Maroney)
>wrote:

>>Besides, would you trust an initiation you had to pay for -- with
>>money?

> TM> Many people do.  They are called "O.T.O. members".

>Do you know of any organizations that have enough money to absorb the cost
>of initiations and initiate for free?

 JG> I question the need for formal organizations of this kind. what
 JG> purpose
 JG> does the OTO serve? If it's just a social club, why the Oath of
 JG> Secrecy?
 JG> If it is more than just a social club, what exactly is it? these are
 JG> not
 JG> rhetorical questions; I'd actually like answers to them.

It is an initiatory body of men and women who share a thrist for freedom
and knowledge.  It provides a social atmosphere where one can be who they
truly are (unless one is trully an asshole) and a forum for sharing idea
around a concept called Thelema.  (You probably already knew this, but
wanted to clear it up for those that didn't).

The secrecy has alot to do with throwing pearls before swine.  By
maintaining silence regardin a specific thing or philosophy it become
sacred.  To Know, To Dare, To Will and TO KEEP SILENCE.  

 JG> josh

Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:33:31 GMT

Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:

>In a message dated Sat 11 Apr 92 06:35, Joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (
>joshua Gller wrote:

> JG[my comments about the rule of silence omitted]

>There is also the fact that can "cahrge" and idea or symbol by keeping it
>secret.  Something about thorowing your pearls before swine :)

gerald has a point here; an analogy might be the custom (found in
'primitive' peoples) of having a 'true name' which very few people 
know and a public name for general consumption. gods also have secret
names, generally (the most famous being the jewish gofd (IHVH is a code
for that name (cipher actually, I guess))). these names fo have actual
power....

josh
From: mayor@ic10.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: cam shifts perspective on chaos
Date: 13 Apr 92 22:19:49 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic10.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems


  I *did* say that chaos theory does not lead to free will because
of its deterministic (although unobservable) nature.  Thank you
mr.scientist.  I would also like to add that because of chaos,
macroscopic events are determined by microscopic events (.ie 1E-99).
This makes it a lot easier to influence macroscopic events by
influencing the microscopic.  If any of you remember what it's like
to be in the physical world with no body...it takes a lot less 
energy to move the microscopic.  Anyway...this leads to magick and
free will somehow, but I'm hungry.  If this didn't make sense, I'll
just step into my asbestos suit. :)

smile, for life is grand. ;)
cam
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mayor@ic16.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Reply-To: mayor@ic16.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 21:36:27 GMT

In article 797@PA.dec.com, dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio) writes:
>
>In article <1992Apr13.214511.20817@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, mayor@ic10.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor) writes:
>|>
>|>  I want to have free will, but chaos theory is not the way to it.  Chaos
>|>is a relative term...we do not see order, but it is not random!  
>
>I don't see the problem. Chaos theory pertains to systems that are
>extremely sensitive to initial conditions and IMO, the brain is one

I like to think so, also. :)

>such system. Can you tell me the difference between a system that
>isn't deterministic and one that is, but so sensitive to initial
>conditions that you cannot predict it's behaviour beyond a few
>minutes?

  I can't give you (I really wish I could) an example of a system that
I know is not deterministic.  Chaos gives the appearance of randomness,
but is still deterministic if you *know* the seeds.  ie. If you had a
value of k=1.23 and plugged that into a chaotic system, you would get
the SAME response every time, but if you plugged in k=1.230000000000000
00000000000000001, it would appear the same for quite a while, but would
start to diverge from the 1.23 case, eventually snowballing into 
something totally different.  If you ran the case again with the value
of k=1.230000...001 again, the outcome would be the same as the last
time you ran it.

>Besides, although we talk of Free Will, I submit that few of us do
>things "randomly" but that Free Will is actually sorta deterministic
>in that placed in the same situation again, most of us would do the
>same thing. The "Free" in Free Will usually doesn't mean random, it
>means unpredictable from the outside...Kinda like chaotic! :-)

  Yeah, I know what you mean.  I think that (more or less) everything
I do could be predicted, given intimate knowledge of my internal 
workings...BUT I have felt quite complimented when people have told
me (they didn't know it was a compliment) that "Cam, I have tried to
understand why you do things, and as far as I can see, everything you
do is totally random".  It's all perspective in this case.

cam

Disclaimer: Booga Booga!

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Science, Magic, and 'results' (Re: "real" = physical ?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:50:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: PA.1992Apr13.151107.2417
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


David Pautler (pautler@ils.nwu.edu) writes ...

>I'd still like to pursue the discussion on the role of metaphor in science
>and magick.  Winston Edmond says that magick is science because they both
>"try, observe, and learn" (no argument there) but this doesn't seem to be
>enough to me.  What about reproducibility of your results?  If magicians
>can reproduce each other's results, why can't mainstream scientists?

Three thoughts I had in response to this question ...

1.  They define results differently, and possibly incompatibly (?)

2.  The magical notion of results appears to me particularly slippery - in 
	general - 'but those are UTILITARIAN criteria !', someone said to me 
	in this newsgroup recently, in response to my definition of science 
	from some of C.G. Hempel's criteria.

3.  Their 'canons of evidence' are of a very different sort, if not truly
	incompatible.

4.  The above notions of results and evidence shift with the changing
	cognitive worldview of the practitioner as a result of their
	practice.  This is a weaker argument, I think, since the same
	effect should theoretically occur with the scientific specialist
	as with the magical specialist.

5.  An interpretive shift (in criteria of value) which the detached observer 
	will deliberately avoid is an essential part of the process of
	obtaining results in magic.   Therefore, without involvement, the
	observer cannot duplicate the results.  This last possibility could
	be tied to the well-known phenomena in parascyhology that most
	of the really interesting psi evidence comes from people in
	'altered states' of some sort, rather than a condition more
	resembling waking consciousness.

							todd
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Girl with a problem
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date:  6 Apr 92 15:56:56 GMT

890780m@ace.acadiau.ca (DARRELL IAN MANTHORNE) writes:


>	I am posting about a friend of a friend. She was apparently playing 
>with some Tarrot Cards alone in her room in residence and since then she has 
>had a few problems. Such as flickering lights, curtins opening and closing 
>by themselves, shot glasses flying across the room at her, her room being 10 
>degrees cooler than the rest of the house (starting at the door), and one 
>night she was awoken by something touching her and she had some wetness 
>across her neck. Some of these incidences have been witnessed by other 
>people. Anyone have any ideas about a solution before she has to go through 
>exams with her "problems"?

does she have a name? have you met her?

josh
From: mayor@ic15.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Girl with a problem
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:25:35 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic15.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 42@ace.acadiau.ca, 890780m@ace.acadiau.ca (DARRELL IAN MANTHORNE) writes:
>
>	I am posting about a friend of a friend. She was apparently playing 
>with some Tarrot Cards alone in her room in residence and since then she has 
>had a few problems. Such as flickering lights, curtins opening and closing 
>by themselves, shot glasses flying across the room at her, her room being 10 
>degrees cooler than the rest of the house (starting at the door), and one 
>night she was awoken by something touching her and she had some wetness 
>across her neck. Some of these incidences have been witnessed by other 
>people. Anyone have any ideas about a solution before she has to go through 
>exams with her "problems"?


	Once when I was near Stonehenge, I bent a coat hanger into the
shape of an ancient symbol...when I pointed it at the rocks, I received
a great electrical shock.
	My mother one time while thinking about her daughter felt a great
searing pain on her arm, so she called her.  At the same time, her daughter
had just burnt herself on a flaming copy of "The New Age and what it means to YOU".

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------"Don't mind me, I'm just bitter."---------------------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Gary Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Gender Differences (was Re: masonic morals & dogma)
Organization: Brute Force Productions
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 15:31:47 GMT

Still debating about the reasons women aren't allowed in Freemasonry...

Here's my two cents' worth.

There is reason to believe that the historical basis of Freemasonry is
in the Knights Templar. Now, I know a lot of garbage has been written
about the connection. But after reading the book "Born in Blood" (which,
by the way, is as close to sympathetic as an objective book can be,
despite the gory title), I have come to believe in this theory. Whether
the Knights Templar actually worshipped Baphomet has nothing to do with
it. However, keep in mind that the Knights Templar were:
1) a monastic order; and
2) an order of knights.
Hence, from the outset they have restricted the membership to women.
It doesn't reflect blatant, modern sexism as much as a historical
tradition with which few present-day Masons wish to tamper. I have
taken this point up with Mason friends, by the way, and they agree
that tradition guides their hands much more so than reason.

Gary Mitchell - mitchell@star0.seas.smu.edu
From: mayor@ic14.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:56:16 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic14.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 0031@sorinc.UUCP, Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:
>
>There is also the fact that can "cahrge" and idea or symbol by keeping it
>secret.  Something about thorowing your pearls before swine :)
>
>Gerald
>
>-- Via DLG Pro v0.991

  Yeah, I'll admit that I can be a grumpy old bastard sometimes, so thank you
everybody for not biting my head off.  I think that what Gerald wrote here
is fairly accurate.  Also, as Josh wrote (in another followup) something about
'true names', which are secret.  Once other peoples expectations, assumptions
and beliefs can attach to your 'magick', the power may be degraded, or lost.

cam
---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"It's about time to change that tired old .sig, cam."---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------