HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yoo@netcom.com (Young-Kyu Yoo)
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: "world"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:38:56 GMT

mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
>
>> 1.  Occam's razor is not a LOGICAL necessity.  Its use is convention, as much
>> as the assumption of innocence in American courts and the assumption of
>> guilt in Britain.  
>
>No, it is not a necessity; however, it is a principle that hasn't failed me yet.

Good for you.  (Perhaps you have hit upon the first unfailing principle in the 
history of philosophy.)  Of course, using Occam's razor, I conclude that either 
your statement is hyperbole or that you have applied Occam's razor to 
very few real-life situations.  

It's double-edged, Occam's razor.

> I think that the original point was that you could have been fooling even
> yourself, and that you are a very good reader of personalities.

A point I first raised.  In fact, in the article to which you originally responded, I told
Matt Crawford:

>>If you mean to imply that folks can be fooled by psychological profiles, I've 
>>addressed that point in another posting.  

Caveat lector should be the rule with respect to psychological 
profiles.  But I believe that astrological personality profiles have as much or
as little validity as professional psychiatric personality profiles.  
My father is a clinical psychiatrist and a believer in astrology. 
When I knew nothing of astrology or psychology I used to belittle
my father's belief.  Needless to say I no longer do so.

Robert Wiegand writes:
>The problem is that the are too many "degrees of freedom". Once you know
>the "correct answers" from the person you can find anything you want
>by just reading the chart the right way. You are finding whet you expect
>to find, and overlooking what you don't expect to find.

The real issue is whether the final product is as good as the product
sold by psychiatrists at much higher prices.  If the "correct answers" help
an astrologer make a reading as accurate as say the results of the MMPI,
more power to the astrologer.
.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t-- t// Re: T/ Re: T% Thought for the Day
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:14:47 GMT


gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:

|> >MENSA is simply one more dangerous way in which one group of people 
|> >attempt to set themselves apart -- and by 'apart' one invariably finds 
|> >'superior', since few people desire to join an organization which claims 
|> >its members are 'inferior' -- from the rest of the populace.  Of such 
|> >'harmless' little groups are born the divisive philosophies which feed 
|> >nationalism, racism, and separate us from each other.
|> 
|> You may be right about that.  It's a colossal generalization on your
|> part, but it may be right in this particular instance.  I guess I
|> don't really care, tho', since I find it positive for me.  

Me me me.

|> Kind of like the separatism and inequality in women having separate, 
|> cleaner restrooms.

This brings up a not wholly unrelated issue.  Our friends at UNC-Chapel
Hill are demanding a Black Cultural Center.  Critics insist the center
will constitute a return to the "separate but equal" days.  Whaddya think?

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t-- Re: t// t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:32:10 GMT


radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:
|> |> |> >"Eric":
|> |> |> >
|> |> |> >You're not more intelligent; you simply scored higher on a test
|> |> |> >whose validity is questionable.
|> 
|> In an earlier post, you implied that talk.philosophy.misc would be an 
|> appropriate forum for your posts.  Are you not aware that logic is an 
|> important part of philosophy?  If you think your above statement is logically
|> valid, you should SERIOUSLY consider taking a course in logic.  If you do
|> research for an AI lab, as your .signature would imply, logic should also
|> prove a valuable skill to acquire.

"Rodney":

Well, I agree it was phrased in a very poor manner.  The truth be told, it
was not the reply I had intended to post.  The intended reply was much more 
matter-of-fact, and stated "You're not *necessarily* more intelligent..."
Once I realized my mistake, there was no turning back, and I decided that I
should stand by the post.

|> Now, if IQ, as you assert, shows the potential for achievement (those with
|> high IQ have the potential to succeed; those with low IQ do not), then why
|> do you also insist that the validity of standardized tests is so questionable?

No one can deny that minority groups in this country do poorly on standardized 
intelligence tests, particularly on the SAT and PSAT.  Schools, universities, 
and Old Guard fans everywhere use this to uphold their own racial stereotypes, 
to label minority groups as "ineducable."  Personally, I have absolutely NO 
doubt that blacks, hispanics, and other minorities are of EQUAL intelligence, 
on average, to the average white.  I do not want to accuse MENSA of racism 
here, but HOW THE HELL do you explain these testing differences?

I do not believe that there *IS* a reasonable measure of intelligence.  
But I do believe that success-in-life and overcoming adversity is a much 
better "measure" than a test of dubious validity.

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: t-- t// Re: REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:49:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.225822.432@ncsu.edu> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>
>mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>|> > Now if only it could keep you off the net... *sigh*
>|> 
>|> The net would be better off if *you* would keep off it.
>
>"Mike":
>
>Tell me why this group was BEGGING me to return, then :)

Sorry, folks.  That was me in one of my frequent smartassed moments
being sarcastic about having Scott's random post files scattered
about.  Some folks don't pick up on sarcasm well, and usually I
just say, "tough".  But in this instance, I think Scott will think
about this a bit more and we might see him type in some new responses
or original articles.

GMS
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY - 09/28/92
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:36:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: claris.15226

In article <1992Sep29.003539.28070@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
> 
> |> In article <1992Sep23.153523.26157@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> |> > 
> |> > Heh... I'd say that the readers of rec.org.mensa are the ones who have
> |> > undergone their own form of self-therapy.  *I* knew when I left what
> |> > sort of lifeless, useless newsgroup this would become.  *You* didn't.
> |> 
> |> Hey, I knew that too, and I bet even Mensans knew it would happen.
> |> All you had to do was remove all articles related to you, and you
> |> get a pile of lifeless mush (for the most part (at least Tai
> |> articles are mush with life)).
> 
> Hey, I really don't think the MENSA members were smart enough to know it 
> would happen :)
> 
> |> > Anyways, I'm back, and I'm even ready for Mike Steiner's pathological
> |> > outbursts of hate :)
> |> 
> |> You like the hatred, don't you?
> 
> Actually, no.  When I'm writing an article, I know that the MENSA gang
> (led by Mike "Yo momma is a ...." Steiner, "Mr Kill File" Hollombe,
> and others who joined for ego reasons) will seize any possible opportunity 
> they can to criticize, insult, attack, put-down, and flat-out flame any 
> part of the articles (not to mention their author) that dare to question 
> any policy of MENSA or intelligence testing in general.

Wrong.  I criticize, insult, attack, put-down, and flat-out flame only those
people who have insulted, attacked, put-down, and flat-out flamed first.
What you are ignoring is that you are the one who initiated the flames and
attacks.  You are reaping what you sowed (to wax Biblical for a moment).  If
you are so thin-skinned and insecure that you can not take your own medicine
(to mix metaphors), you shouldn't have started it in the first place.  You
are merely getting what you deserve.  Oh yes, there is another difference; we
post under our own names, whereas you are too much of a coward to post under
your own name.
 
> This is no definitive study here, but I have known enough people over enough 
> time from enough places that a pattern is quite clear: MENSA is considered 
> insignificant and ridiculous. Why should this be so?

Because those who consider Mensa insignificant and ridiculous are themselves
insignificant and ridiculous, and feel the need to vent their frustration
about this fact, rather than seek the help they so obviously need.

You are a pathetic representative of the human race, Tai.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: t-- t// Re: T/ Re: T% Thought for the Day
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:28:49 GMT

uh-oh. Do we have a wolf in sheep's clothing? Or has the man *reformed* -
gasp - not that - I just waxed poetic on the virtues of his negative side.

tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
>This brings up a not wholly unrelated issue.  Our friends at UNC-Chapel
>Hill are demanding a Black Cultural Center.  Critics insist the center
>will constitute a return to the "separate but equal" days.  Whaddya think?

Well, I think it's important to know who you are and are not.
So I don't think it hurts to have such a group - the people there
will be able to assess if they have more identification into the
group, and are reinforced there - versus deciding there may not be
"special" values in being identified with the group. Also depends
on the group, if it's good, or bad. That has to be left to the members
to work out.

Answer: Is Good.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: yoo@netcom.com (Young-Kyu Yoo)
Subject: Re: Geneticism
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 00:49:06 GMT

econd, I realized after I had posted the article that "defect" was perhaps
> more "loaded" of a word than I had intended.  "Abnormality" would have been
> more appropriate.  However, it could be considered a defect in the sense that
> homosexuals are inclined to forbear reproduction, thus preventing society 
> from the genetic benefits that would accrue from the other traits these 
> individuals might have.

Intelligence is "abnormal."  As for "defects" in the Darwinian sense, I can think of
ugliness; obesity; nerdiness; tendency to drink, smoke, or inject; and monogamy.

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford)
Subject: Re: Doubters Of Astrology
Organization: FERMILAB, Batavia, IL
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 23:43:18 GMT

>crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford) writes:
>>...  This, and many similar studies, shows
>>that letting the recipient of a reading rate its accuracy cannot give
>>any support to the hypothesis that astrology is valid.
>>
>>Suppose recipients of astrological readings were presented with a
>>number of readings derived from different brithdates, ... Ask each
>>to choose which reading most accurately describes him or her.  ...

Eric C. S. Dynamic:
>Unfortunately, Crawdad, you were scooped on this point, as - uh - I
>hope you will recall in private mail. I proposed this very thing many
>hours ago - shall I post my incoming/outgoing mail?

Unless you left some details out which are important to me, then what
you suggested in email is not equivalent.  

>But I no longer care about this sort of test either.

It seemed fair, simple, and little or no extra work for you, if you're
going to do a handful of readings or more.  If you won't go along
with it, the closing sentence of my previous post is oprative:

>>If ECSD finds this test unacceptable, then I will believe (but not
>>claim to have proven) that either he is hostile to scientific inquiry
>>or has no faith in astrology.


>I don't recall was yours amongst the info I have received; for if
>not, no time like now to be discouraged or encouraged around
>astrology. I have strong things to say about the remaining parties .
>. . including you, when I have your chart.

I would have no objection to sending my date and place of birth (time
too, if it's on my certificate), if it were to be part of a test I
considered valid.  If you won't do the "post all readings with dates
attached and let each subject state which fits him or her best" test,
I can only offer you the "I provide one true date and nine false
ones, then tell you which of the ten readings fits best" test, and
that one *would* be a lot of wasted work for you.


>{signed - Lamont Cranston.}

But the shadow would *know*!
					Matt
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz)
Subject: Re: T% Thought for the Day
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 23:27:25 GMT

skh@draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:

>MIT addes 50 points to the combined SAT score of female applicants.
>As I understand it, this is not an affirmative action policy, in the
>sense that they use the SAT (plus grades, of course) to predict
>academic performance, and past MIT data shows that adding 50 points
>results in a more accurate prediction, for whatever reason (that's
>another interesting discussion, and it does *not* necessarily mean
>the SAT is flawed).

>So, is it really the standardized test that's the barrier, or
>the unsophisticated use of it?

Well, most top-level schools are not going to be guilty of unsophisticated
use.  The admissions game is just too competitive these days.  Very few
top-level schools use a minimum SAT as a make-or-break first check.  The
admissions process is a very human process, not something done by auto-
matons.

The trend is to use SATs as an error-check against the rest of the application.
A wide disparity (in either direction) between the SAT and the expectations
of the admissions officers (based on the experience of reading hundreds of
applications per year from students of similar background, from similar
schools, with similar transcripts, with similar applications...) means that
the application needs a more intensive review to find a reason, positive
or negative, that explains the disparity.  E.g., great essays on the
application + poor verbal score... had help from Mom on the essay -- reject;
mediocre grades + 800 math... unrealized potential -- reject, but make 
personal call and suggest student apply for transfer next year; excellent
grades, except sr. year + excellent recommendations + mediocre school + poor 
SATs, but ong-hours of after school work and too many extra-curriculars 
sr. year... admit; etc.

-rich

-- 
             Richard H. Schwartz, Scheduling Systems Inc.,
            1000 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA  02138
                  (617) 864 8330; FAX (617) 864 8377
                          rhs@world.std.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Subject: t-- Re: t// Re: T/T: Statistics - rec.org.mensa most prolific posters!
Originator: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai)
Organization: NCSU Artificial Intelligence Systems Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:18:28 GMT


shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum) writes:
|> Scott,
|> 
|> Well, at least I see your speech patterns are improving!
|> Nah, dissing you ain't my personal crusade; more like a
|> hobby. Actually, I am genuinly (sp? - I'm no MENSAN!)
|> interested in why you hate MENSA so. No BS; really. Why?
|> And why do you carry in on for so long? I care.
|> Get MIKE STEINER to quit posting? No way, I enjoy a good
|> Steiner Liner ( ;^]   to MS ).
|> Assphinctersayswhat?
|> 
|> YEE-HAWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!

MENSA is an organization whose membership is contingent upon 
scoring high on standardized tests of dubious merit, and this 
is why I am here.  I hold nothing against the formation of 
elitist organizations, but I have more respect for those which 
base their membership on more solid ground, such as technical, 
professional, or even financial success.  I am not trying to say 
that an organization of intelligent people should not exist; I 
merely state that MENSA is not necessarily an organization of 
intelligent people.  I do not believe such an organization exists.

YEE-HAWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Scott Tai -- tai@ailab.ncsu.edu
NCSU Artificial Intelligence Lab
Centennial Campus
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: The Providence of Astrology
Date: 6 Oct 92 04:58:19 GMT
Organization: TRW Financial Systems

>>>ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>>>>Dave Casper. ...

GMS:
>>>I knew it!  I knew it!  What have I been telling you, Dave?!?  :-)

ecsd:
>>Oh, fuck. Like you you you have the faintest, freaking idea who I'm
>>talking about. Tell me you know I am talking about Mr. Cern, the arch-
>>heckler of alt.astrology??
>>Pfui, GMS. Send me yer chart info so yew cain be part this hyere cnspircy.
>>Eyuh. Nyewp. You jist gotta send the info, Tuff Shitskis. Ohhmmmmmmm . . .

GMS:
>Shame, Eric!  You know I'm psychic!  Casper should be getting mighty
>nervous right now, since now that HE knows that I'm psychic, he's getting
>pretty nervous about that little slush fund deal with Rev. Moon
>and those Vegas Weekends!  

>And no, I'm not going to decode this for anyone except "Deep Pockets".
>And I don't have to for Eric, since he's in the Omniscient club
>as well.

>GM("Using This Identity to Protect my Loved Ones During My Crusade for
>Truth, Justice and the American Way")S
>BTW, you should have the information you requested by now, Eric.
>(As if I had to SEND it!)

Argh, GMS, get a grip. I knew I should've fed you some carbs when I woke
you up this morning - now you sound like you're on your 7th cup of coffee
for breakfast. Eeek!

Dave Casper (I guess that's his name) is one of two persistent hecklers
in alt.astrology - he's bashing them out of his Jupiter in Aries. He's
actually a nice guy, but I'm having more fun here, and I'm already doing
chart readings here, so I told him to tune in over here. I think I picked
up on his chart first because of the large cluster of things in Virgo.

I'll have to post there in case he's asleep.

K. Davis up next, a day or two. After I get rid of my current hangover,
I have to make some money to buy more booze. No - actually, after 37.5
bottles of Ouzo, I think it's time to give my liver a *long* rest, I got
what I went there for.

Jist Sunshahn, Chickenshit & Fresh Water. A cool breeze, an ocean, a woman.

I missed some earlier mail, have to go back and look - GMS wanted to know
what happened in soc.bi - I'll get to that. rec.nude is getting testy too,
so I will bring my "New General Theory of Humans and Social Relations"
here instead. The short version of this theory says that if people will have
more sex, we'll all feel better about almost everything and the world will
become a nice place to live, but that's *just a tad* simplified. It's the
polemic I mentioned in a note to Rodney Adams.

Now, now, let's all be nice . . .
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t// Re: T/ Re: T% Thought for the Day
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:29:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: claris.15235

In article <1992Sep29.222538.10743@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz) writes:
> |> tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> |> 
> |> >People whose
> |> >intelligence is expressed in other ways that the ability to pass tests
> |> >need not apply -- even if accepted, 
> |> 
> |> Nonsense as written, and nonsense by any reasonable interpretation.
> |> 
> |> Some people (not you obviously) value the idea of a group that attempts
> |> as best as it can to select members from the segment of society that 
> |> is considered "intelligent".  That testing is an imperfect criterion for
> |> such selection is unfortunate, but being willing to live with that known
> |> imperfection says nothing about us as members.  Nor does it imply
> |> anything about our attitude to those whom we individually recognize as 
> |> intelligent despite scores that fall short of the statistical norms.
> 
> "Richard":
> 
> MENSA is simply one more dangerous way in which one group of people 
> attempt to set themselves apart -- and by 'apart' one invariably finds 
> 'superior', since few people desire to join an organization which claims 
> its members are 'inferior' -- from the rest of the populace.  Of such 
> 'harmless' little groups are born the divisive philosophies which feed 
> nationalism, racism, and separate us from each other.

There is only one word that adequately describes what you wrote.  That
word is "bullshit."
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: t-- Re: t// t// REC.ORG.MENSA TODAY - 09/28/92
Date: 1 Oct 92 21:00:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.230430.729@ncsu.edu>, tai@ailab.ncsu.edu (Scott A Tai) writes:
> 
> 
> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> 
> |> > Bullshit.  You criticize anyone who questions any aspect of MENSA.
> |> 
> |> That is a lie; what is more, you know that it is a lie.
> 
> You're doing it again! :)

Yup, and I'll continue to do it--whenever you lie, I'll point it out.

> |> > Methinks you're the insecure one.  Where specifically did I initiate
> |> > these "flames and attacks"?  
> |> 
> |> In your very first messages--and in the vast majority of your continued messages,
> |> when you flamed Mensa and Mensans.  You continued lies, your continued hiding
> |> behind numerous false identities, and your continued flames all invited flames
> |> in return.
> 
> Wrong.  I do not hold any ill-feelings toward the MENSA organization itself, 
> or any of its members.  My "fight," for lack of a better word, is against 
> the practice of intelligence testing and the artificial hierarchies it creates.

Again you lie; from the very first, you have labasted Mensa the organization,
and Mensans in general.

> |> > Let me guess:  you don't like Ben Franklin, Samuel Clemens, or Stephen King,
> |> > do you?
> |> 
> |> The didn't hide their names, and they didn't lie about it.  You, on the other
> |> hand, are a coward and a liar.
> 
> They DID write under pseudonyms.  But that's not the issue at all, and
> you know it.

If it's not the issue, why did you bring it up?  Yes, they did use pseudonyms,
but their identies were an "open secret."
 
> |> Well, for one thing, perhaps I'd like to send you email.  For another, if you
> |> can't even take the responsibility for your own messages, that invalidates
> |> their content.
> 
> No it doesn't.  Why can't you judge an article by its content, rather than
> its author?   

I first did judge them by their content, and found them to be lacking in anything
meaningful.  Then I found out that their authors were all aliases of the same
person, who was attempting, among other things, to use multiple identities to
support "one another," and to give a false impression of a consensus in favor of
his views.  This, then, makes me look at anything further written by anyone using
any of those names as being highly suspicious.  When a person lies in almost
every message he posts here, and lies about his identities, that person ceases to
be trusted about anything he says.

You have labelled yourself, by your actions, to be a sanctimonious, hypocritical,
liar--it is something that you have done all by yourself, and you have only
yourself to blame for it.  If you didn't want to be flamed, you shouldn't have
doused yourself with gasoline and then struck a match.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa