From: tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode)
Subject: Re: How come we aren't getting it?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 06:41:31 GMT

 
stef@Apple.COM (Stef Jones) writes:
 
] tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode) writes:
]
] >This, of course, makes things much more difficult--a rather large
] >portion of the population only wants love/understanding/intimacy/etc.
] >from those who can't or won't give it to them.
]
] This is true to an extent but I think this explanation is overused. People
] are too quick to assume that there is a deep-rooted neurosis at work if they
] go for a few years without matching up with anyone. In fact, given the depth
] and breadth of compatibility people expect with their partners these days
] and the difficulty in finding someone using modern rules of dating, sometimes
] I think it's a wonder that anyone ever finds a long-term partner.
 
It may be overused, but I do think it's quite common.  I wouldn't call
it a "deep-rooted neurosis" though, as much as the 'logical' conclusion
of many of our commonly internalized cultural messages; not a mental
disorder, but a well-inculcated belief in values and assumptions that
are ill-suited to successful relationships.
 
(Indeed, in our culture, it seems difficult to find anyone who doesn't
have some serious self-esteem and intimacy issues.)
 
] I think several contradictions within the culture contribute to this. In
] other words I think the problems are in the culture and not so much in the
] individual.
]
] (1) Women are told both that a relationship is the most important thing in
] their lives, and that they are expected to be independent. It seems like a
] pretty clever solution to me to spend your time being interested in less-than-
] available men. You're in a relationship, sort of, and you also have a lot of
] independence. Some women stay unhappy about this situation and some women
] embrace it once they figure out what is going on. (I'm sure this applies to
] some men as well.)
 
Actually, this works very well--in fact I've known a few women who have
preferentially dated married men for this reason (among others).
Obsessing about "the one who got away" is another good technique for
avoiding the stresses inherent in the uncertainty of a working
relationship (as opposed to the comfortable security of a doomed one).
If the woman in question has internalized at some level our culturally
ubiquitous message that women are supposed to be subservient to the men
they are involved with--their 'property,' even--but still wants to live
as an autonomous human being, and simply going solo isn't an option,
thanks to another pervasive cultural message that a relationship is
central to a woman's value, a sort-of relationship like this may be the
best fit to her values and internalized beliefs.
 
(Though the internal dynamics are a bit different, cultural messages for
men have some analogous patterns, so they're not exempt from this sort
of thing either.)
 
] (2) People are taught to judge others on the basis of superficial
] characteristics and are much less adept at determining temperamental
] compatibility (which is more important in the long term than superficial
] characteristics or a certain number of shared interests, IMO.)
 
'Tis true; I supect that the reason is largely that superficial
characteristics are so much easier to see (and much faster to use as a
selection criterion); it's a lot like the managers/personel directors
who value a characteristic to a degree proportional to the ease with
which it may be expressed as a single number.
 
] (3) People learn that if their partner possesses certain characteristics,
] that will raise their social status. They tend to over-focus on these
] socially approved characteristics rather than asking themselves "what do
] *I* really want in a partner?" Or they try to find someone who has both
] sets of characteristics...well, the more characteristics are specified, the
] harder it is to find someone who has all of those characteristics.
 
I'd go so far to say that an awful lot of people (probably most people
for at least a significant portion of their lives) have a great deal of
difficulty separating what they want from what they think they're
supposed to want.  Whether they picked up the latter from parental
expectations, the media, dominance games among peers, or whatever, what
they think they're supposed to want is usually much closer to the
surface of one's consciousness and can do a very good job of concealing
or confusing their actual values.
 
Of course as long as your set of values are contradictory (whether
you're aware of them or not), the prospects of a happy long-term
relationship are dim indeed.
 
Trygve
--
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