HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nukenin@access.digex.com (R. Cliff Young)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: A sample Design to Pick Apart
Organization: Talas Nukenin, courtesy of Express Access
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:18:51 GMT


Och!  You tell me this *AFTER* I have spent my life shelling out money
for products like, oh, GURPS, Bunnies and Burrows, etc.?!?!?!?

Actually, I once ran a more or less free-form game along these lines
(ages ago, when I had the time to invest in running games).  I think
the only rule specifically stated was "the GM's word is final" or
something like that.  It was played more or less for laughs, as a
breather from "real" systems.  The plot that evolved out of it had the
motley assemblage of heros (ranging from a caveman to a "Spaceman
Spiff"-type) saving the Earth from a raving madman (whose name
alternately begins with a "Q", "K", or "G", depending upon the time
and source of news) who had accidentally come into possession of some
arcane "Book of True Names" that gave him power over the denizens of
the underworld.  My only regret is that we didn't record the
session--it got pretty crazy, but never even approached collapsing
entirely--everyone was more or less "on a roll" that night.  We used
dice, but neither excessively nor consistently.  (Since it was a
rather silly session, there *was* one incident when I forced a player
to collect every single 6-sider he could find for one mammoth roll
that nowadays seems rather the norm in Shadowrun... ;)

Still, a more-or-less free-form system of the type Steffan outlines
need not be used merely for comic-relief games.  Given reasonable
players, and a reasonable-and-fair GM, it could work quite well for
the soberest of campaigns.  It really requires the GM to be more of a
storyteller, and the players to be more imaginative and innovative,
IMHO.  But there are those for whom RPG's should meet those very
requirements, and a free-form system could be the stepping-stone they
may be looking for.

-- 
 R. Cliff Young --/\/-- Work: cliff@sfn.ORG | Fun: nukenin@access.digex.com
 Phone: (703)573-0913 (USA) | GEnie: R.YOUNG52 | AOL: RogueBard@aol.com
 Mail: 7374 Arlington Blvd., Falls Church, VA  USA  22042-1515     /QR:RFO:SID
 "I'll teach you to laugh and to cry // They're really the same you'll see..."
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: jbridson@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: net.rpg:  mechanic + damage
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:43:31 GMT

Here's a few ideas for mechanics:
  d10 x d10   (everyone knows their times tables, and gives a distribution 
centred on the lower end.  The high rolls become more special?)
  cards (standard 52 card deck, each player has a hand of 5 or so.
You get a range of 1-13, plus 4 suits that each might mean something...  
The player gets to choose which card to play for each "roll", then refresh 
his hand every no and then.  Maybe Kings let you add in another card to the 
total?  I'm intrigued by this idea)

And my thoughts on damage:
  Detailed, and above all FLEXIBLE.  This means that there isn't a rule for 
everything, but that the GM can easily rule on anything.  I've yet to see a 
good hit-location system, so I much prefer using HP (or several sorts of HP 
- Stun, Body, Bleeding, etc), and the GM making wounds up on the spot.  
That's whaty I do, anmd my players appreciate it!

      Robert Bridson (using the account of JBRIDSON)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: fxmlk@acad3.alaska.edu (KIENENBERGER MIKE L)
Subject: Re: 3D map appearance in a computer game
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC
Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:46:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.154928.7162@odin.diku.dk>,
torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen) writes...

>Alternatively you can use stereo images, but this requires either
>special (e.g. red/green) glasses to see, or requires the user to cross
>his/her eyes to merge the images, which some people find very hard to
>do.

This is a topic I'd like to see some discussion on (the glasses, not the eye
crossing :-).   I was trying to create a "3-d" look, using the same
techniques used on paper -- red/blue glasses looking at a double-imposed
red/blue-green image.  However, at least on the computer screen, I wasn't able
to duplicate the effect.  I know I used the same colors (12 bit color here),
but it just didn't seem to work.  Anyone had any success with this?
=============================================================================
-Mike Kienenberger                       FXMLK@ALASKA           (BITNet)
 Academic Computing                      FXMLK@acad3.alaska.edu (Internet)
 University of Alaska-Fairbanks
 "I'm a computer programmer....<link><link><kludge><kludge> say-no-more!"
From: bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Random vs. Point Alloc CharGen
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:12:46 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1992Nov10.202253.13230@crd.ge.com> (Spike) writes:
>Posts of late seem to indicate that people in this sub are trying
>to design a unique new game system. Many of the comments 
>I've seen thus far seem to be degenerating into the same old
>"is point alloc or random generation better?"

...and falling into the same idiotic logical foolishness.  People
aren't arguing anything relevant to point allocation or not, they're
arguing selection versus randomness.  Any idiot can generate a
character randomly under a point allocation system -- although the
reverse is not true -- so why are they objecting to point allocation
systems on the grounds that they prefer randomness?

There are *other* reasons one might dislike point allocation; the need
to number-crunch and the imbalances between supposedly equal characters,
to name two.  But to object to point allocation systems on the grounds
that one likes one's creative juices inspired by a little randomness
seems specious to me.

Unfortunately, the other side -- most notably David Nalle -- have been
countering with accusations that any decent roleplayer should be able
to come up with 6 creative characters before breakfast, and thus
those who resort to dice are weenies.

The choice for the rules systems isn't selection versus randomness --
it's point-balanced versus random variance.  The two are *not* the same.

>The better approach is dictated by what the *player* wants.

But the GM dictates the base system.  If he/she dictates point allocation,
the randomness preferrer can get out his/her dice.  If the GM dictates
random rolling, however, and you prefer point allocation, you're out of
luck.

   -Andrew Bell
bell@cs.unc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:07:28 GMT

|> In principle I agree. Two points though. Firstly, in many situations
|> and particularly in combat, there are alot of things happening very
|> quickly. If as GM, I am responsible for 8-9 NPCs it becomes difficult
|> just to come up with creative combat without slowing the play down, let
|> alone make decisions about the outcomes of each of the encounters.
|> Certainly, if the GM wants to overrule, to keep a PC alive etc, thats
|> no problem, but I just don't want to have to deal with the details. I
|> want to save my imagination for the bigger issues.  Secondly, there is
|> the point of consistency. One of the most frustrating consequences of
|> developing a roleplaying system has been the adjustments to the rules.
|> For instance, to begin with, the table I developed for falling was too
|> harsh. One of the players discovered that he could do much more damage
|> by running around pushing NPCs from their mounts than he could by
|> engaging them in combat. While he acknowledged that I had to modify the
|> table he was a bit put out by the sudden "reality shift". The point
|> being that the characters would generally have a much better idea of
|> their chance of doing a certain amount of damage than the players and
|> if the tables are removed I think it would be difficult for most GM's
|> to maintain consistency. When the players are deciding what to do
|> next they rely on consistency.

Have you considered using figures/hexmaps for large NPC/player battles?
I know, I know, it sounds munchkiny like battle tech or something, but
have you ever played Dragon Quest?  I mean, you dont even have to use
little figures, just any kind of marker (like dice).  The GM can quickly
sketch the scene, place visible NPCs and player characters, and all the
players can instantly form battle plans without having to continually
pester the GM about who is doing what, where, and to whom with how large
an object.  Some simple rules like beings in adjacent hexes can engage
in melee, things can move X hexes per round, you must have LOS to fire
at someone with a missile (things like intervening trees are readilly
apparent).  It just makes the whole thing a lot more realistic at
virtually no cost to rule complexity.  In fact, it makes some other
aspects of the combat rules much simpler, as you can just say 'refer to
map'.  Once you get past the munchkin-cringe block about using a map and
markers, the advantages are readilly apparent.

Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: mathers@sibelius.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers)
Subject: Re: game system
Reply-To: s.mathers@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:53:25 GMT

|> I think I can. Characters with a multi-faceted personality often have
|> more of a lasting power. My experience is that characters created from
|> an idea 'Wow - that would be fancy!' most often are fancy for about
|> three weeks. Then all the jokes have been told, and the character just
|> doesn't have any more potential.
|> 
|> Characters created in a loose career-oriented system like I think we
|> should put in net.rpg, are more realistic, more life-like, and with a
|> number of abilities, specialities, and weaknesses, where a
|> choice-character would often be one-dimensional. 
|> 
|> Of course there should be left room for the dreams of the player, but
|> I think it is unrealistic and un-nice to assume that the life of the
|> character passed just like he wanted it to. Surprises! Problems!

This is a problem with the player, not the system.  If a player wants to
design a real-life type character, he/she can.  If the player wants to
do otherwise, then they can do that too.  The GURPS system is fairly
nice in this repect because it allows players to get more points for
taking on weaknesses, and less points for taking on special abilities/
strengths....it just doesnt fiddle around with some sort of career path
rigmarole to do it.
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 02:11:46 GMT

Our goal, or at least the goal that I will put some work into
cooperating, is to make a net.rpg that is a monster. It should work
for a lot of people, and offer a lot of options. It will not fit on
one a4, not on ten either.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<1992Nov8.083753.5173@alf.uib.no> <10965@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>
	<1992Nov9.032158.9364@alf.uib.no> <10976@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>
	<92315.090509RDT111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:36:50 GMT

Do people agree to this - we discuss the Character Generation process
and the parts involved by that (Stats, Skills) in the order they come
up? In particular, we do Combat *later*. 

I'm working on a file with an outline of what we've got on Character
Generation, so if you've got any thoughts, post them here or mail me.
I'll post it here for flaming^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion when it's
finished. I'm looking forward to it. Ha!

-Magnus
From: torbenm@diku.dk (Torben AEgidius Mogensen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Skill trees
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:22:04 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

> I don't know this system, but I think a skill system would be the way
> to go.  How about a hierarchial(sp?) skill system where 'root skills'
> cost comparatively much, and 'leaf skills' are cheaper?  Of course you
> need the right root (to a certain amount) to get the leaf.

>  = Ketil Malde

I have considered this idea, but find that you need skill DAGs
(directd acyclig graphs) instead of trees: there are skills that are
natural as specializations of several unrelated or only loosely
related skills. Classifying a complete DAG of all skills will be
cumbersome, but one can obtain much the same effect by letting some
skills be obtained cheaper if you already have related skills,
possibly not specifying exactly what these are.

	Torben Mogensen (torbenm@diku.dk)
From: magnus@apal.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:40:19 GMT
	<BxL2xB.HJt@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> <1992Nov12.004009.1@wharton.upenn.edu>
	<1du78nINN3tj@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN

>>>>> On 12 Nov 92 18:20:07 GMT, tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
>>>>> said:

I agree with everything you say, Tim.

>character background

	Tim> rolled, player determined, or gm assigned.  In truth, we
	Tim> give a series of events that may/may not have happened to
	Tim> the character, and all threee choices are now possible.

Well, I think you should also have a choice between rolling for stats
directly, or letting the lifepath rolls determine your final stats.

>character quantization

	Tim> to take the gurps stats vs. advantages arguement further,
	Tim> how about allowing each stat to be broken down into
	Tim> separate stats?  Thus, one's Mental stat is the average
	Tim> (or weighted mean, or whatever) of one's Psyche,
	Tim> Willpower, Acumen, etc....

Nice. That could possibly also make for two different stats - systems.
One could use only the 'basic' stats, f.ex 'Mental' here, or one could
use all the small ones, 'Psyche', 'Willpower' etc. plus the basic
ones.

Then, skills could show the stat they are dependent on like this:

  Psyche/Mental

which means Psyche if you use it, else Mental. 

	Tim> The only potential problem is when a player tries to
	Tim> minimax by either creating useless or redundant stats and
	Tim> lower those so s/he can raise the choice ones.

(Create stats??)

If players want to minimax or cheat in other ways - let them. They'll
probably have more fun anyway. What we shouldn't let them is ruin the
fun for the other players. Ideas here?

On the other hand, if they don't have more fun - they'll probably
create a Real Character the next time around. 

Ziip ( <- Zipper of flameproof M-82 )

	Tim> We can create an expected value table for whatever
	Tim> mechanic(s) we use and allow the player to choose that
	Tim> result instead of rolling dice.

UGH! You can put your name on that part of the manual.. :-(

	Tim> We can have combat be based on the skill system, but with extra 
	Tim> details thrown in for spice.

Yes, but still compliant with the basic skill rules. There should be
nothing *special* about the combat rules, all skills should be created equal.

>mystic abilities: magic; miracles; psychic powers. super abilities

	Tim> determine the difference between a bullet wound and Mr
	Tim> Magnet's Magneto-ocular beam.  Matter is definitely open
	Tim> to discussion.

I don't want to go into details on Magneto, but I think there are a
few fundamental differences between these two 'damages' - the damage
effect system should be made effective for all combinations of real
damage (removal of flesh), pain and restriction (like a boa would).

	Tim> under the assumption we were addressing solely the issue
	Tim> of mechanics.  BTW, WotC has a mailing list for one work

Yes! At least at the moment - in a few years, who knows..

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
From: blum@medici.ils.nwu.edu (Dan Blum)
Subject: Re: Abalone.
Reply-To: blum@ils.nwu.edu
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:20:08 GMT

Actually, you can get it at Toys-R-Us for about $10 now (the Galoob
edition, which is identical to the original).

--
_____________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum           Institute for the Learning Sciences   Room 327
blum@ils.nwu.edu   1890 Maple Ave., Evanston, IL 60201   708-467-2306

"Consider a spherical cow of uniform density..."
____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
From: caspar@sci.kun.nl (Caspar Terheggen)
Subject: Re: Awari Strategies
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:06:32 GMT

In <BxK09A.2L8@rice.edu> amitp@owlnet.rice.edu (Amit J Patel) writes:

>Oops --- I wasn't aware of other (similar) games like this.  I most
>recently played this on Quest For Glory III, so those rules are the
>ones I was using: 

>When you drop beans, you include the cups on the end as part of your
>move; if your last bean falls into your kalaha (?), you get one extra
>move.  (You can't keep getting moves -- you get at most one extra.)

Very different indeed.  Obviously there must be a lot of different
versions of this game.  As someone else mentioned; they are all
mancala (or mangala) type of games.  "My rules" are these:

(I'm using the word kalaha for all cups, is that correct?)

The kalaha on the far sides of the board are used only to collect
"prisoners"; your's is to your right.  You "deal" counter clockwise.
When your last bean lands into one of your opponent's kalaha and as
a result the number of beans becomes two or three, you capture all
the beans.  If the kalaha immediately to the right (if there is one,
of course) also contains two or three beans, you get to take them
as well, etc.  There are no bonus moves and there's no obligation
to capture (if possible).  Example:

   4 2 1 3 1 0                     4 0 0 4 2 1
 4             2        ->       4             7
   2 3 2 3 4 5                     2 3 2 3 4 0 ^
             ^                               ^

Regards,
Caspar.
--
 Caspar Terheggen  +31 80 652801  caspar@sci.kun.nl  U634008@HNYKUN11.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
From: rmurray@netcon.smc.edu (Roger Murray)
Subject: Any rules for Mau?
Organization: Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, CA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:06:22 GMT

I played Mau once at UCB a few years ago.  I normally don't like games with
tons of rules, but I enjoyed this one.  I meant to write down the rules the
next morning so I wouldn't forget them, but I never got down to it.  But then
I figured it was a UCB thing.  Who else could play this game, right?  Well,
after reading some of the articles here, it appears Mau is played all over the
place, so I'd like to try to recall as many of the rules as possible.

I realized that it's the type of game where any rule I make up is just as good
as any rule somebody else already has, but I'd like to get back some of the
crazier ones I can't remember.

Here are the ones I do remember:
- Aces change the direction of play.
- If n 2's have been played in a row, then the current player must either play
  a 2 or take 2^(n-1) cards from the pile.
- Clubs have to be announced ("two of clubs," "ten of clubs," etc.).  In
  addition, the Jack of clubs has to be announced "Jack of clubs, like a
  bicycle."
- I believe Aces had a catch phrase, but I don't recall.
- Eight work as in Crazy Eights; one calls a suit and play continues as if that
  suit had been played.

If anyone else can remember some of the rules they played with, I'd love to
hear them.  Great newsgroup, by the way...
-- 
Roger Murray (rmurray@netcon.smc.edu)
Instructional Computing, Santa Monica College

TPU / K / RAOED / TH / RBGS / UR / AEU / KORT / RORT / ER / FPLT
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
From: flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Subject: 2-d Nim (Re: anybody know this game?)
	<1992Nov12.140302.17198@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
	<MJD.92Nov12122414@saul.cis.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:47:33 GMT

The game is sometimes called 2-d Nim, and can be played with arbitrary
boards.  Draw an array of Xs, take turns crossing off a connected line
of Xs.  The last player to move wins (or loses, in the misere
version).

Like all impartial 2-player games, 2-d Nim can be analyzed with Nim
numbers.  (Well, probably not the misere version.  I don't understand
misere analysis yet.)

Computing the Nim values isn't hard, just somewhat tedious.

Finding general rules helps some.  Like:
  nim-value XX...X   = n (the number of Xs)

  nim-value XX...X   = n
            X

  nim-value XX...X   = n - 2, when n - 2 = 2 ** k
             X         n,     otherwise

Anyone want to explain nim values, nim sums, and the mex rule?
Perhaps this weekend I'll write a quick tour.
--
From: claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius (Chris Knight))
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
Subject: Re: Chess in non-euclidian space
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:24:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.1992Nov12.182420.120252
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius (Chris Knight)) says:
>Where B's left four pawns can attack A's right four, A's left can attack C's
>right, and C's left can attack B's right.  And visa-versa.  It's a very nice
>looking setup...

Correction, B's pawns FACE A's pawns etc.  Silly me.  [So going straight from
the left half of B's side takes you to A's right-hand side.]
-- 
---King Claudius---                                   claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
From: baljeual@uther.calvin.edu (Alan Baljeu)
Subject: Re: Othello
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:40:38 GMT

cmspring@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Colin Springer) writes:

>  Othello Puzzle #1:

>   . o o o . x . .
>   . . o x o x . .
>   . x x o x o x .
>   x x x x x x x .
>   x x x x o x o o
>   x x o o x o o .
>   x . x o o x . .
>   . x x x x x x . 

>White (o) to play and win decisively ...

>Where would YOU go?
I'd go here:

   . o o o . x . .
   . . o x o x . o  <--
   . x x o x o x .
   x x x x x x x .
   x x x x o x o o
   x x o o x o o .
   x . x o o x . .
   . x x x x x x . 

Am I right?
From: kanderso@reed.edu (Karl Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
Subject: Re: TRY THIS
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:18:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov10.231837.22449
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Nov10.203340.27111@news.acns.nwu.edu> jcc@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Jeremy Caplan) writes:
>Hey!  Let's make a seperate newsgroup for TRY THIS things!
>
>I've been kicked out of numerous fast food restaurants in my time.
>
>Jer (grin)

alt.shenanigans.

k
Newsgroups: rec.games.abstract
Subject: Re: Abstract games & Chess
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 17:09:09 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

Suresh Peram writes:
>Does chess come under the classification of abstract games ?  

Yes it qualifies, but it has it's own newsgroup, so such discussion
on chess should be taken to that existing one.

>Is abstract something that you think mostly and do little physical stuff ?

By the CFV, an abstract game (to the best of my feeble memory) is
one where there is no luck involved, and no secret knowledge.

-- 
You can't carve your way to success without cutting remarks.
Xref: sparky rec.games.abstract:227 sci.math:14896