From: jsw@cray.com (Jon S. Wood)
Subject: Re: Philosophy for Gordon (Was Re: Choice for men)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:41:06 CDT

In article <1992Sep26.130832.19088@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>First, let's play a little round of knock-off points just
>to get warmed up....
>
>gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>| >The draft-registration issue is the surface of a very
>| >serious problem, which involves the belief, culturally 
>| >conveyed to many males in our society, and accepted by 
>| >almost everybody, that violence is neat and you're not 
>| >really a man if you can't deal in it.
>
>gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
>| The draft issue is, more than anything else, a question of freedom.
>
>gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>I don't know if you're aware of this, but the argument
>had assumed this and gone down the road aways.
>
Jon Wood:
  Why would you "go to the road aways" unless you refused to discuss
freedom as it relates to the draft? Of course you want to walk down
the road and blur the issue. Violance my ass.
>gf:
>| >      ...  Instead of attacking feminism, men could be 
>| >using feminist analyses to decode their own problems.  
>
>hg:
>| Your feminist analyses reminds me the following paragraph:
>
>[ someone doesn't experience being in the army ]
>| 
>| The insistence of people with no first hand experience in being drafted
>| that they understand the problem much better has no base, IMO.
>
>First of all, I'm a feminist and grew up at a time when 
>all young men, just about, were threatened with a real, 
>live draft.  I spent three years in the Army.  I hope my
>credentials are adequate for you in this area.
I'm sorry to hear you are a feminist. You remind me of those
self righteous bible thumping supporters of Mr. Swaggart, blinded
by the light created by huge guilt complexes. 
>
>Second, I'm obviously talking about using feminist
>analyses, not feminist life-experiences.  There is a
>difference, although it pains me to think I will have to
>explain it.  It's like going back to grade school.
>
>gf:
>| >One
>| >of the outcomes of such an analysis would be the formation
>| >of organizations to oppose the violence system in general
>| >and draft registration in particular.  
>
You are sexist to believe that feminists are not violent, and
you are hopelessly ignorant about violance and human nature. There
is nothing wrong with reducing violence, you would be a fool 
to expect human nature to change. 
>hg:
>| The feminists I agree with tend to be pro-freedom and not so much
>| anti-violence.  ...

   The humans I agree with tend to be pro pasta and not so 
much Mac and Don grease burgers.
>
>Freedom and violence are antithetical, millennia of
>propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding. 
>
  When will you graduate? 
>
>Well, does my "gggggeneration" get credit for the Civil
>Rights movement, the anti-Vietnam-War movement, and the
>feminist movement?  You seem to feel that the last-named
>was a powerful political thrust that changed everything
>and is to be blamed for any defects (like draft 
>registration) remaining today.  Which is it?  
>
>gf:
>| >                                       ...  Anyone with any
>| >consciousness of the Left in America is all too familiar 
>| >with this state of affairs.  
>
   Consciousness of the left.... Most quit the bullshit and got
a job, except those who were funded by Daddy. I always noticed
that those who were PC in the 70's were also funded by daddy. 
Many of the big buck PC crowd of this generation went on to
selling stuff on the road with Mr. Garcia and band.
>
>Do you want to think that one through again?  Women Strike for
>Peace made opposition to the draft a major item on their
>agenda.

 They risked so muuuuuuuuch. Then it was back to mommy and daddy
at home. 

>  They don't seem to be around any more.  NOW didn't
>seem to exist then, but they have concentrated on women's
>issues (although I believe they oppose the draft).  They are
 And I appose paper waste, BIG DEAL!
>around and thriving.  It seems that the example supports my 
>point and disproves yours.
>
>Now we've come down to the bottom, in more than one sense,
>I'm going to invite you to read my articles for meaning 
>instead of knock-off points.  There's one in soc.feminism
>and one here and of course others generally on the subject.
>Try, for once, to see something besides material for your
>anti-feminist crusade.
>
>When you've done that, maybe we can play a game of put
>up or shut up.

 Tough talk from such a antiviolent sensitive guy. 

>-- 
> )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
>( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )



Antifeminist, and proud of it.

Jon Wood 

Newsgroups: soc.men