From: seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu (Seyyed Mahdavian)
Subject: Re: Reply to  Bahaies  gang
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 03:37:28 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.193258.12153@rdg.dec.com> hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim) writes:

> Dear Seyyed and the readership of soc.culture.iranian:
> 
> I am writing this in reply to your (i.e. Seyyed Mahdavian's) most recent 
> postings on this topic.
> 
> Seyyed, evidently you have your opinions about the Baha'i Faith and my 
> "standard answers" and "ignorant assertions" are quite ineffective to 
> attract your attention to other possibilities in this area. Your faith 
> and confidence about the Qur'an and the Hadith and their meanings appear 
> to me as if Muslims have uncovered all the secrets of the Qur'an, and 
> are rather unified in their understanding of their Scriptures. Therefore, 
> no pearls of wisdom remain in the shells of Qur'anic words and the Hadith 
> to be unveiled. 

Dear Kamran,
My intention is not to prove myself to anybody. Qur'an says: "people who
like others to praise them for adjectives which they don't possess, will not
escape from fire". I just am sad to see my brothers being fallen into the
trap dug by our enemies. Our smart enemies realized long time ago that
the best way to defeat Moslems, is as Dr. Shariati describes "religion
against religion". If I have gone through this discussion, it's because
I care about you; you are not a threat to me. There are people like
Shahrokh Mortazavi on the net, who try to compensate for their lack of
knowledge and logic, by making a clown of themselves. They are not even
worth an answer. Just the command "j(unk)" will suffice. They will pay
the price in other ways. But you are not like them. The fact that you
are so kind and full of respect, shows that you are an intellectual
man. In fact this is why you are hard to fight! It's easy to show the
falsehood of "Yazid-ibn-Mo'avieh" but not so easy to show it in the
case of "Mo'avieh" himself. This man is so smart and tricky and so
KIND (I am not making a comparison with you) with his followers. He
says: " The relationship between me and people is like a thread between
us. Whenever people pull the thread, I let it go, because if I pull it
as well, the thread will break! Whenever they cease pulling, it's my
turn to pull !!! ". Or for example, it was hard to fight the "khavArej",
because they were so sincere and religious (again no comparison). 
Ali (a) says: " It was I who suppressed the trouble. No one but I
would ever dare to do it." Indeed, who could raise sword on people who did
the prayer after midnight (namAze shab) and not tremble?

>                 It is my moral obligation as a Baha'i to respect your 
> views and my personal wish to congratulate you for such a display of 
> faith and certitude. 

I also respect the very fact that you are "thinking" and "reasoning".
But I am sorry, I cannot respect your believes. The Prophet(s) said:
"The strongest handle of faith is loving for God and hating for God"
I am a descendent of Ebrahim (a)  and Mohammad (s) who broke the Idols.
It is my duty as a Moslem to invite you to come back to Islam and help
you. The Prophet(s) said : "Help your brother, no matter he is right
or wrong". It's also my duty to fight people who deceive my brothers,
no matter defeat or victory.

> Based on the input I have received from you, I clearly know very little 
> about Islam, and it appears to me that I must study this great religion 
> in the presence of those, such as yourself, who understand it so well. 
> However, there is paradox which I need to resolve first! There is section 
> among the writings of Ali the Commander of the Faithful which I have read 
> that bothers me, when I attempt to place everything into perspective all
> of what you have written. I would appreciate it if you or someone else 
> would show me how to understand this saying: 

I am not sure whether this is a sincere question or another trick to change 
the subject of discussion. Sorry that I don't trust you. Unfortunately you
didn't show much sincerity in the first place, when you tried to mislead
us with unnecessary arguments. Anyway, if what you call a paradox is really
the reason you left Islam, I will not spare a short explanation.

> 
> "Verily, a time will come upon you wherein nothing will be more concealed 
>  than the truth, nothing more manifest than falsehood, and nothing more 
>  than lies about God and His Apostle. The people of that time will possess 
>  no commodity more difficult to sell than the Book when it is correctly 
>  recited, or one more in demand when its passages are misinterpreted. 
>  There will be throughout all lands nothing more detested than good deeds, 
>  or more renowned than evil ones. The reciters of the Qur'an will have cast 
>  it away, and those who memorize it will have deliberately erased it from  
>  their minds. The book and its disciples will, on that day, be ostracized 
>  and outcast, two friends together on the road, to whom no one will offer 
>  shelter. The Book and its disciples will be, in that age, among the people 
>  and yet neither among them nor with them. For error is incompatible with 
>  guidance.
>  Even though the Book and its disciples might come together, the people 
>  would agree to keep separate [This, in my opinion, implies that Muslims 
>  and the sects of Islam will be disunited among themselves.]. They would 
>  disperse from the community -as if they were the leaders of the Qur'an 
>  rather than it being their leader. Nothing will remain of it among them 
>  save the name; they will know nothing of it save its calligraphy and 
>  script. Before, they had not made an example of the righteous by maiming 
>  them, or called their sincerity towards God a lie, or punished good deeds 
>  with the penalties for crimes. They who preceded you perished because 
>  they went on hoping for too long and their allotted terms  expired. Then 
>  the Promised One descended, by whom excuses are rejected and upon whom 
>  repentance has no effect, and with whom are the calamity and the 
>  affliction." 
> 			Imam Ali "Nahj-ul-Balagha [The Path of Eloquence]
> 
> Please understand that I am not attempting to be sarcastic, or disrespect-
> ful to you or other Muslim friends. Far from it. That is not my style of 
> writing! 

This is correct. However I am not yet sure what your style of writing is.

>          However I feel compelled to sincerely question that if this is the
> DESTINY of Muslims, then how could they possibly realize WHEN Mihdi comes, 
> WHAT the Qur'an and the Hadith mean, WHO Baha'is are, and WHAT they stand 
> for? 

1) What you say is not a paradox, it is a question. The worst thing we can
   imagine is that Moslems CANNOT realize when Mahdi (a) comes, what Qur'an 
   and the Hadith mean, etc.. Then why is that a contradiction ? (It's not
   true, but it's not a contradiction)

2) Ali (a) is complaining about MOSLEMS not ISLAM. In fact he is praising 
   Islam and he is sorry that Moslems will not recognize it as they should.
   We believe that Mahdi (a) will come and WILL restore the true Islam.
   We believe that he will raise from Mecca (and not from Shiraz), and he
   will establish justice throughout the whole world, not just by giving
   advice, but by the "force of sword" against oppressors. We believe that
   he will make streams of blood of heretic clergy ...

3) Ali (a) is talking about SOME (I believe most) and NOT ALL Moslems, in
   a PARTICULAR TIME period. His argument does not necessarily apply to Moslems
   at this time, nor to ALL Moslems at any time. In fact Mahdi(a)'s initial
   companions will be 313, the number of Badr warriors (I am telling you this
   because you love magic numbers so much !). However according to a Hadith
   from Imam Mussa Kazem, people from Yemen and Khorassan (probably meaning
   Iran) will support him later.

>      How can I, as a non-Muslim, or any other individual for that matter, 
> place our trust in what the faithful say about Islam, Baha'i Faith, meanings 
> of the Scriptures, administration of justice, etc..., etc..., etc...

We are not suggesting that you FOLLOW BLINDLY anyone. Qur'an says:
"... and those who hear the word and accept the best."
I personally have found Morteza Motahari a sincere and thoughtful man. I 
believe if there is only 10 men in the new age who understood Islam, he
is one of them.

> Once again, no disrespect is intended. This is a paradox for me and I 
> would appreciate it if you, or one among the learned friends would shed 
> some light on this issue for me.
> 
> Please let us COMMUNICATE. What is going to be gained by unsupported
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^
> accusations?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^

I asked a question to which the answer is "yes" or "no".

> "O Son of Spirit! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and
>  radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imprishable
>  and everlasting."	[Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words #1]

  "O Father of Spirit! My first counsel is this: Be sincere and truthful.
   This is the first thing that a prophet or Imam should be. How do
   you expect me to believe Mohammad (s) if he lied even once? How do you
   expect me to believe the man who calls himself Bab, claims that he is
   a messenger of Mahdi(a), then changes his claim to Mahdi(a) himself,
   is defeated in argument, cannot fulfill the specification of Mahdi(a)
   according to Shi'a (Which he claims to believe in), and is executed?"
                               
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
> Kamran Hakim
> 

Seyyed.
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