Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:36:07 -0500 
From: Thomas Omar Smith <ts2a+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: lead toy ban 1/2
Distribution: rec


Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.frp.misc: 14-Dec-92 lead toy ban 1/2
"jeff zeitlin"@execnet.c (4947)

> DC::>I just got a call from Paul "Crazy Egor" Meyer, the game dealer.

> DC::>He has just found out that the New York State Dept of Health has
>   ::>just issued a regulation banning the sale of lead figures in
>   ::>NY state.  (Please forgive me if this is not the _exact_ story.
>   ::>I am just passing along what I heard).

>   Crazy Egor is living up to his name.  The ban was not on lead
>   FIGURINES, it was on TOYS containing lead, and then only in contexts
>   where the lead has a large likelihood of being propagated into the
>   body.  This does not automatically mean that lead figurines are
>   banned, although they _may_ be covered.

The following is text from the actual order, which was posted a week ago:

1) Pursuant to Public Health Law Section 16, the following 
Respondents, manufacturers of the figurine products containing
lead specified at paragraph 3 below shall immediately cease the
sale and/or distribution of asid products in New York State:

       <I have removed the addresses from below, for space 
reasons>

       Citadel Miniatures
       GHQ
       Grenadier Models
       Lance & Laser Models, Inc.
       Miniature Figurines, Ltd. <MiniFigs>
       Rafm Company, Inc.
       Ral Partha
       West End Games

   2) Pursuant to Public Health Law Section 16, all distributors 
and retail establishments in the State of New York, which sell 
and/or distribute the figurine products containing lead specified 
below, shall immediately cease the sale and/or distribution  of 
said products within New York State.

   3) The lead figurine products prohibited from sale and/or 
distribution under this Order for Summary Action shall include but 
not be limited to the following:

      Figurine                          Manufacturer
      Eldar Guardians                    Citadel Miniatures
      Micro Armor Ural 375-d             GHQ
         Med. supply truck
      Dragon of the Emerald Idol         Grenadier Models
      Ars Magica AM-008 Vulcris          Lance & Laser Models Inc
      By J. Johnson
      Britain N-281 Foot Artillerymen    Miniature Figurines, Ltd.
      Rafm Fantasy 3056-The Defenders    Rafm  Company, Inc.
      31-018, Screaming Ogre with        Ral Partha
          Tree Stump
      Torg Ravagon                       West End Games
>  
It seems very clear that gaming miniatures are targetted by this ban, as
they are specifically mentioned in the document.

>  In case you didn't know, lead _is_ toxic.  This is why lead-based
>   paints were removed from the market, and why gasoline containing
>   lead has also been removed from the market.

Incorrect.  Leaded gasoline has not been removed from the market. 
However, you cannot use leaded gasoline in a car with a catalytic
> converter, since the lead will destroy the converter.

> DC::>Note: This is a Health Department unilateral decision.  This
>   ::>is not legislation that was debated before passage.

>   And it doesn't have to be.  The DoH has the power, and OBLIGATION,
>   to act if there is a confirmed (or strongly suspected) heath hazard.
>   Lead qualifies, and has done so for years.

Only if the lead is in a form in which transmission into a human body is
likely.  Otherwise, lead bullets could also be outlawed under these
> rules.

> DC::>He asked me to keep my eyes open for any newspaper or
>   ::>magazine articles, etc.  He would like to collect each and
>   ::>every word printed about this new regulation.

>   He should call up the DoH and get a copy of the exact text of the
>   regulation.  What he's trying to collect is not considered credible
>   testimony in a court of law.

He has copies of the rules, and they were posted.  You should watch what
is being said.

Also, keep in mind that what they are preparing for is a public hearing,
not a trial.  Petitions are admissable, and indeed desirable in that
> context.

> DC::>I would like to pass along this request to all of you
>   ::>in net-land.  Sorry to those of you not here in NY, but
>   ::>I figured that such a blow to our hobby would at least
>   ::>be of interest to you.

>   "Blow to our hobby"?  C'mon, you're _both_ blowing this out of
>   proportion.  This is not directed at gamers or miniaturists; it's
>   directed at the public health.  There is no certainty that it even
>   applies to "collectable" figurines; even if it does, the regulation
>   may be worded in such a way that the sale is _controlled_, not
>   _prohibited_.

Again, the text of the rules state:

   1) Pursuant to Public Health Law Section 16, the following 
Respondents, manufacturers of the figurine products containing
lead specified at paragraph 3 below shall immediately cease the
sale and/or distribution of asid products in New York State:

> The rules say cease sale or distribution, not control.

>   Furthermore, there are other substances that are/can be used to make
>   miniatures; these have been coming into use anyway, so there will
>   probably not be major dislocation.  One of the major hobby stores in
>   NYC (Compleat Strategist) sells a metal for making figurines, which
>   isn't lead - I think the brand name is "Magic Metal".

Maybe, but most non lead miniatures I've seen were inappropriate for
> gaming or of inferior quality. 

>  The regulation does not ban the sale of lead; it will still be
>   possible to make your own figures, if you _must_ have lead.  Any
>   gun/ammo shop that handles reloaders will be able to supply you with
>   lead by the pound.

Making your own figures takes lots of time and work.  That's the whole
> point of being able to buy figures.

> DC::>If you really are concerned, you might even want to jot
>   ::>down any references from television or radio.  Date, time, channel,
>   ::>brief summary of content, people interviewed, whatever else
>   ::>you think might be valuable.

>   If _you_ or _Egor_ are really concerned, and not just interested 
>   in rumor-mongering, you'd call up the DoH yourselves and get the 
>   whole story, and post _that_ instead of these wild, unsubstantiated
>   accusations.

> The entire script of the ruling was posted.  Its you who missed it.

> CW::>[note: if you live in NY, this is the time to FLOOD your STATE GOVERNMENT
>   ::>       this kind of blind idiocy.  The FED regards lead mini's as COLLECTA
>   ::>       not TOYS.  Ask HOW MANY LEAD POISONINGS can be attributed to these
>   ::>       in the last year.   - MOD, r.g.frp.announce]

>   ::>Approved: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

>   Oh, give me a break!  Based on that logic, then the automobile
>   should be banned nationally, and especially in New York, New 
>   Jersey, and California, as it is probably the single item that 
>   stands out as being involved in the majority of deaths reported in 
>   any given year since World War II.  You're as bad as David and Crazy 
>   Egor when it comes to rumor-mongering.  I'll concede that New York 
>   State does some stupid things every once in a while, but I do not 
>   think that this necessarily qualifies (I will be doing _my_ homework 
>   later this week - and I strongly advise _all three_ of you to do 
>   the same), and I have learned that there are always a bunch of 
>   idiots like you that will try to cause trouble based on wild 
>   accusations and incomplete information.  I hear this every year when 
>   someone hears about the annually proposed "modem tax" here.  NOTHING 
>   ever comes of it; the idea dies, and the discussion dies, usually 
>   within a month.  I hope you and David both will cease this 
>   rumor-mongering and rabble rousing, and CHECK YOUR FACTS _BEFORE_ 
>   posting to an internationally distributed newsgroup.

>   I had originally thought to send this private to David; I've changed
>   my mind.  I will be posting this to rec.games.frp.misc instead, 
>   since there are enough people who will swallow any bilge before 
>   getting all of the facts.


> (Continued to next message)
> ---
>  ~ QMPro 1.0 41-4533 ~ My reality check just bounced.
> --
> Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
> International ILink Host

We'd appreciate it if you would get the facts, like the fact that the
rules were posted in full, and that they do in fact ban all lead gaming
miniatures in the state of New York.

For more information about the efforts to overturn the ruling of 
the DEPT OF HEALTH,

CALL OR WRITE TO:



Crazy Egor's Discount Game Warehouse

3047 West Henrietta Road
Rochester, NY 14623
(716) 427 - 2190
FAX : (716) 427 -8182


Or AT  America On Line:
Izzy Lobos
Internet:  Izzy Lobos@AOL

Or Internet:
SIMCON@cc.rochester.edu

					Tom the non hacker
					Kemp in 96!
					"If patriotism is the last refuge
					of scoundrels,  Then environmentalism
					is the current refuge of totalitarians."
					Bob Jackson
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc