HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: George RR Martin
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:35:08 GMT
Organization: DB and ES Subdivision, TU Vienna

From article <1993Jan7.165935.13580@julian.uwo.ca>, by jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll):
> In article <JOHN.93Jan6183958@sekrit.WPI.EDU> john@sekrit.WPI.EDU (John Stoffel) writes:
>>I'm sure everyone else has noticed the amazing growth
>>of the "Think of a Universe and invite others to write in it"
>>syndrome.

> Industrially-produced  fiction is  clearly a better  investment for
> publishers  than fiction  produced  with the  same  pre-industrial
> techniques  obsolete  writers  like Dumas  or  Poe used.

Actually, Dumas is a bad counterexample, since I recall reading
somewhere that he really did produce his fiction in industrial
fashion, having relatives and others cooperating to flesh out his
books.
-- 
Markus Stumptner                                mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at
University of Technology Vienna                 vexpert!mst@relay.eu.net
Paniglg. 16, A-1040 Vienna, Austria             ...mcsun!vexpert!mst
From: jet@boxer.nas.nasa.gov (J. Eric Townsend)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: sf writers on tv
Date: 5 Jan 93 21:56:57 GMT
	<1993Jan5.191300.16725@netcom.com>
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation, NASA Ames

"solovay" == Andrew Solovay <solovay@netcom.com> writes:

solovay> Did [Butler] say if she was working on anything now? When is the
solovay> next Butler book coming out? Tell me! Tell me! TELL ME!  --
solovay> Andrew Solovay

Nope.  The authors were talking more about the history of SF than
"what I'm working on now".
--
J. Eric Townsend --  jet@nas.nasa.gov -- 415.604.4311 (DoD# 0378)
"It is the cunning of form to veil itself continually in the evidence
of content.  It is the cunning of the code to veil itself and to produce
itself in the obviousness of value." -- Baudrillard
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:47:07 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1604@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
|> >You want to fix the bookstores? you want better, literary books in the
|> >stores instead of TSR, Gor and etc? Fix the schools, and bring up readers
|> >instead of folks who spend their money on TV, Beer, and Video games.
|> 
|> 	Chuq, get off your high horse. I've read more than 99% of the 
|> people out there, and I don't drink beer, find Video games at best to be
|> temporary entertainment. And I happen to like a lot of the stuff you 
|> try to say could only be liked by a completely uneducated underclass.

Besides which, beer consumption (and alcohol in general) is WAY down in the
USA.

For what it's worth...
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: michelle@theloop.Central.Sun.COM (Michelle Donat SE Chicago Loop )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:25:05 GMT
Reply-To: michelle@theloop.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: theloop.central.sun.com

I would really like to know from the fans who have kids (2-6) years old whether these kids have
taken up reading -assuming that their parents still have time to do so.  This can be the 
difficult part in the modern world.  fortunately, my 4 1/2 year old has shown none of this, as
about 1/2 of the toys, etc that she has are books of all kinds.  No SF yet!, but in about a year or
two, I will move the "juveniles" down from where they are alphabetically, and put them in easy
of reach of her, and see what happens.  The rule "if your parents read, then you probably will" 
does seem to work, at least over 3 generations of my family. Mine read incessentally, for themselves, and for me before I could read.  We read to our daughter every chance we get, and do
not discourage her to "read" one of her books and make up a story.  That's how you get another
very important thing in this world, one which, outside of fandom, seems to be lacking...
Imagination!.  Seeing your kids read, and reading to them, is probably the most important thing
that you can do as a parent, (and it will keep my friends who are authors in business a while longer!)
---

Michelle Donat
SE Chicago Loop
michelle@sunloop.Central
312-855-9530
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ahill@boi.hp.com (Andy Hill)
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:38:22 GMT
Reply-To: ahill@boi.hp.com
Organization: LaserJets by Bill & Dave
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

J. P. Robertson (jroberts@morpheus.UWaterloo.ca) wrote:
> The Kzinti evolved with both species sentient, however the males of
> the species chose to breed in such a fashion that the females became
> unintelligent.  [I can't recall where this tidbit came from, though
> it might be from Man-Kzin Wars, which might not be canon.]
>
Ringworld Engineers.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17321 rec.arts.sf.science:4022 sci.physics:22399 sci.skeptic:22245
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Subject: A Good Cause (was Re: Red electrons)
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:46:06 GMT


I wrote:
>>Well, of *course* electrons are red.  What did you expect?  They're all
>>atheists (have you ever heard of a good Christian electron?), and they
>>hold their nuclei in common.  They'll swap orbits at a moment's notice.

>>I understand that the Government has been investigating electrons for
>>many years now.

>>Neutrons are . . . shall we say . . . a bit pink also.  But protons are
>>good American particles.


And Klaus O.K. wrote in response:

>Actually neutrons and protons are made up of quarks, which come in
>different colors.


Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to announce the creation of the newest,
latest fannish charity -- HA!.  The purpose of HA! is to raise $6,125.00 to
buy Klaus a sense of humor.

Donations may be sent to /dev/null.


			I'm your only friend.  I'm not your only friend,
			but I'm your little glowing friend, but actually
			I'm not your friend.  But I am
				--TMBG

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
From: dayne@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Acronyms in _Hyperion_
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:01:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1isjnbINNg0i
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In Dan Simmons' books _Hyperion_ and _Fall of Hyperion_, what do the acronyms
FORCE and ARN stand for? I may have just missed the reference, or Simmons may
just not have ever said. If there aren't any definitive answers, how about some
reasonable speculation?

(For those of you unfamiliar with the books, FORCE is the military of Hegemony
space, and includes FORCE:space, FORCE:ground, FORCE:sea, and FORCE:Marines.
ARN refers to a technique of genetic sculpting; ARNists gave one character,
Martin Silenus, the appearance of a satyr, and several references were made
to extinct species that have of have not been ARNied back into existance.)

Just wondering...

   -price
      (dayne@byron.u.washington.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:18:24 GMT

In article <".7-Jan-93.14:54:54.EST".*.Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@Xerox.com> Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@XEROX.COM writes:
> I'm afraid I don't understand the reference to "Heinleinesque speeches about
> sex and morality" and "1950's sexual mores" in the same breath.

By "Heinleinesque," I meant "in the style of Heinlein," not "matching
in content the speeches in Heinlein's novels."  In other words,
characters spend a lot of time lecturing each other about their beliefs
on sex and morality (which may or may not be the author's) while the
story sort of stands around in the corner waiting for its turn to do
something.  This is the equivalent of the scientist in many old pulp
stories lecturing his companions on how his latest invention works.
I no not think this is the optimal way to inform the reader of the
science (in the later) or of the beliefs of the characters (in the
latter).

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
From: Rob Vickery
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels?
Date: 12 Jan 93 12:25:42 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

Kurt Schumacher writes:
>
>If you would like to see some real parallels, try comparing LotR to the
>great Norse saga The Niebelungenlied (apologies if it's misspelled).
>Tolkien was clear heaily influenced by the Norse sagas.  (As were many
>others.  I did a paper in high school comparing LotR with the libretto
>from Wagner's Ring Cycle.  Got an A+ on it; wish I'd kept a copy.)
>My feeling is that you have to go back a *long* way to find a truly
>original story.
>
>	Kurt

which is the one thing that really irritates me about Michael Scott Rohan's
trilogy (Anvil of the Ice, Forge of the Forest, Hammer of the Sun). I don't
particularly mind authors retelling old legends, it's probably the only way
the stories can stay alive, but to rip off a whole trilogy from the legends
of Weyland Smith so blatantly and without any acknowledgement whatsoever
really pisses me off. After all, apart from that the books are really not
too bad (IMHO).
	-rob
 

 #########################################################################
 Rob Vickery           rmv@uk.ac.ed.dcs             robinv@uk.ac.ed.castle
          -  M U R P H Y   W A S   A N   O P T I M I S T  -
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A sort-of apology to Mr. Stein
Date: 10 Jan 93 05:56:26 GMT
Distribution: world

In <1993Jan7.224832.17491@math.ucla.edu> David Stein wrote:
>   All in all, I must say I would much rather see you going back to 
> _Raymond's Reviews_ then playing a High Priest of SF.  Both the net
> and you would gain, in my opinion.

Part of the reason my reviews work is because I've studied the field in some
depth and understand its history and development fairly well.  There is nothing
"priestly" about either this or my defense of John Campbell --- a grasp of
facts and evidence obtainable through sources I have cited repeatedly here
would equip you for a debate I'd find really interesting.

I'm disappointed in you, actually.  I thought you'd pick up the challenge.
Instead, I'm hearing the typical academic forensic ploy of affecting
"amusement" at one's opponent, and a bunch of petty sniping.  Screw it.  I have
neither time nor interest in getting into what we native English speakers call
a "pissing match" with you.  If that's your attitude, you can join Bret Jolly
in my kill file.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17567 rec.arts.books:24780
From: faunt@netcom.Netcom.COM (Doug Faunt N6TQS 510-655-8604)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
Subject: Needed: Postal Book Service
Date: 13 Jan 93 01:30:16 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: at home, in Oakland

There was a request for a mail order service for SF books, with a
catalog.  At the time I replied that the OCOH used to have a monthly
mailing, but didn't currently.  I was wrong.

I was just over there, and they are again publishing the monthly list
of new books, which comes with comments.  You could call them at
+1-510-848-0413 to be added to the list, or write them at The Other
Change of Hobbit, 2433 Channing Way, Berkeley CA 94704, USA.

These people are all close and long-time friends of mine, so I am not
unbiased.
doug  <faunt@netcom.com>
From: rible@vorpal.dell.com (Max "Risque Warlocks" Rible)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Ending of Tigana question *spoilers*
Keywords: tigana
Date: 4 Jan 93 22:23:19 GMT

swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>In article <Bz9vrF.99s@javelin.sim.es.com>, krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers) writes:
>|> I have a question about the very last paragraph of the book.  Sandre,
>|> Baerd and Devin see a Riselka (sp?) at the same time.  I knew three
>|> men meeting one at the same time had some significance but I forgot
>|> what it was and couldn't find it again in the book.  It went something
>|> like: "One will find his path, one will die,...".  Can anyone tell me
>|> what three things happen?

>Blast, I can't remember the third either.
>Of course the meaning is obvious, the old duke/prince is going to die,
>our vacillating hero is going to figure out what he really wants,
>and ????

No, no, no, Baerd (having lost his sister) dies to join her, Devin
is blessed--- going off to marry Alais--- and Sandre's life forks
between retiring and taking up rulership again.

I like the whole thing having left off at a place where it's clear
that there are many more tales to tell, even if we never see them;
the threads aren't simply tied up in the end with "and they all
lived happily ever after".
--
/-----------------------v-----------------------------------------\
| Max Rible             | "Animals *like* earthquakes, tornadoes, |
| rible@vorpal.ucsb.edu | and natural disasters." - Talking Heads |
\-----------------------^-----------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: The Gripping Hand
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:02:17 GMT

In article <9301080721.AA18439@rutgers.edu>, BECKS@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Sara Beck) writes:
|> 
|> The appearance of the sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye" rouses me to
|> comment on the original. Since I don't want to ruin anyone's reading
|> pleasure nor to attract needless flames, I will start by saying that
|> loyal fans of Niven and Pournelle may not want to read this.  OK?
 
 I consider myself warned.

|> "The Mote.." was a thoroughly mean-spirited book.
 
 Oh my. Let's see how well you can back up this accusation.
 
|> It was a good example of
|> anti-semitism according to the strictly linguistic, or Bobby Fischer,
|> definition, namely it was offensive and demeaning to Jews and Arabs
|> alike.

 Oh, give me a break. Unless my memory fails me, there weren't any 
Jewish characters in the book who were developed thoroughly enough 
to paint any sort of offensive picture. Unless you're saying that 
that in itself is anti-semetic?
 
 Horace Hussein Bury was a slimy individual who just happened to be
an Arab. Hey, welcome to the world of multiculturalism! If he'd been
Greek, would you argue that the book was offensive and demeaning to
Greeks?

|> It also had yet another example of Niven's quite extraordinary
|> misogyny, which I don't think has been mentioned on the net.
 
 You must not have been here for very long. 
|> If a writer comes up with ONE alien species in which the females are
|> non-sentient or non-intelligent, or in which the process of
|> reproduction is fraught with catastrophic threats and dangers, one
|> can say that it doesn't make sense scientifically but hey, neither
|> does FTL travel, and this is what SF does.
 
 Or you can say that it DOES make sense scientifically, because it 
happens quite often in the real world. Read a book on reproductive 
biology and look at how many species have non-politically-correct
methods of reproduction. Really, someone should do something about 
those spiders. A clear case of feminism taken much too far. And I'm
sure you don't want to hear about the male walruses and their harems.

|> But if EVERY alien species this writer can find in his imagination
|> has either profoundly defective females, great threats in child-bearing,
|> or both, phrases like "deep-seated authorial neurosis" begin to come to
|> mind.
 
 Hm, phrases like "good extrapolation from terrestrial biology" come to
_my_ mind. I don't know about Niven's psychological state, but if I were
somewhat mean-spirited myself, I might wonder about why _you_ are so 
profoundly offended by species which don't reproduce in the same manner
as humans. Not that I would ever do this, mind you.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: phatch@solstice.slc.mentorg.com (Phill Hatch (CONTRACTOR Documentation))
Subject: Dilvish: Zelazny's other Fantasy
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp.,  Murray, Utah
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:14:53 GMT

I have read the Amber thread, Views of Mt. Fuji, and other
works/threads as well.

Still, my favorite works by Zelazny haven't been touched 
since I have been on the net.  A short story about Dilvish
was the first Zelazny I remember reading.  It was in a hard
bound anthology back in the seventies.  The book talked of
other Dilvish stories from Zelazny but I never found any 
others for some time.  Then, "The Tower of Ice" (?) was pub-
lished in an anthology with a great cover in the early eighties.

So now I had read two of the Dilvish stories.

Finally, I went to college in '82 and _The Changing Land_
was published.  I excitedly devoured it.  Shortly after that,
_Dilvish the Damned_ was published and I got to read all of the
short stories about Dilvish.

Now his Dilvish stories don't develop the images and other
literary objects that Zelazny's other stories do, but they offer a 
perspective of Zelazny's style across most of his career,
have an engaging character, a good supporting cast, and 
do have some things to say about single minded obsessions
on people.

Between Amber and Dilvish's world, I find Dilvish's world
more interesting.  This might be because of less explicit
fleshing out, or just Zelazny's presentation of relics, 
events and sites that show the character's innate knowledge
of and how the character belongs in the world, without 
dragging the reader through a guided tour of the world (a la Eddings).

Anyway, what do the rest of you think about Dilvish?  How
does he compare to other Zelazny or other similar heroes?

I felt that Dilvish and Elric share many traits:
Both are separate from the cultures they operate in; they 
both have access to extreme extraplanar powers, though limited
control of them; both are driven towards a final confrontation
creating a world neither belongs in.  Though similar, Dilvish
is somehow more than Elric.

ObCommon Universe: Is the Castle Timeless in Dilvish analogous
to the Keep in the later Amber stories where Merlin battles
the two magicians?  Sorry I can't remember the names from the 
Amber books...

Phil
From: scst74@csc.liv.ac.uk (Mr. D.W.F. Liu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The "Death Gate" Cycle
Date: 12 Jan 93 10:09:20 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

In article <1993Jan11.095405.28316@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, jonathan@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Mr J J Trevor) writes:
> In article <30010@castle.ed.ac.uk> emeu09@castle.ed.ac.uk (Mech Eng Student) writes:
> >
> >   I was wondering if there was anyone else out there who is reading the Death
> >Gate cycle by the most variable of authors Weiss and Hickman.  If so could you
> >add your opinions to these questions.  Thanks in advance.
> >
> >1)  What is the dog?  The only person who doesn't know seems to be Haplo.
> >   My guess is that it is a representation of Haplo's "soft" emotions.
> >
> 
> Dunno yet. Maybe.

In Serpent Mage I vaguely remember at the start that dog ended up with Alfred
and when queried about the animal and its owner, he said something about the
dog being lost which had something to do with his "soft" emotions I guess.
 
> >2)  Who is Zifnab (Fizban, Paladine, whatever) REALLY and what's he doing here?
> >
I think Zifnab _is_ supposed to be Paladine(Fizban), as to why here's in the
book, your guess is as good as mine.

> >3)  Where did the dragons come from?
> >
Which Dragons?

> >4)  Is Alfred really the Serpent Mage?

>I think that questions two and four are related. Please bear in mind Ive
>only read upto and including Firesea and not Serpent Mage. However, at
>the end of the second book it turns out that Zifnab (Fizban as stated
>above hahaha) was the FAMILIAR to the dragon and not the other way
>around as you may have expected. Im which case surely the Serpent mage
>is the dragon (a kind of "serpent") who performs magic through Zifnab.
>
>Anyway, this may be completely turned on its head by Serpent Mage!!!
>
>Jonathan

Nope. I think it is Alfred who is the Serpent Mage.

				Seeya.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                        From The Dude called Denby.                       +
+          In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities        +
+                 scst74@uk.ac.liverpool.compsci is just one.              +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams)
Subject: Who killed SF???
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:14:15 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

I go to book stores.  I go to the library, and only rarely do I find anything
worth buying and reading.  What is all this crap that clogs the shelves???

Here is my list of suspects:

All those nitwits who write endless fantasy series.

Star Trek Crap.  Enough already!  They've made a frigging
cult from a second rate space opera on TV.

Fantasy Body Snatchers.  Roger Zelazny and U K Leguin used
to write great books before they got into the fantasy dodge.  Wake up!

Assembly line writers.  Especially the journeymen who they
hire to produce more product in the style and universe of
a famous author.

Publishers who pay the big bucks for this crap.  How do they sleep at night?

L. Ron Hubbard.  Excuse me, Mr. Fat Boy Cult leader, but who asked you to
write Science Fiction again?  And isn't he DEAD??? WHY DO THEY KEEP PRINTING
BOOKS???

All of the Unicorn and fake medievalist readers who have an insatiable appetite
for the STOOPIDIST POSSIBLE Trash.

It is sad.  I can actually remember being able to WAIT IN ANTICIPATION FOR THE
NEXT Philip K Dick to come out.  Can any claim now to be waiting for anything
that momentous?
--
Kent Williams -- williams@cs.uiowa.edu Work(335-4496) Home(338-6053)
"You, Varlet! Why so blithe?" -- from "Shreck" by William Steig


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written