Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Raving a bit, aren't we?
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:49:13 EST
 <1992Oct12.001559.4705@desire.wright.edu> <1bf12tINNgec@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <1bf12tINNgec@agate.berkeley.edu>, lazarus@ocf.berkeley.edu (Andrew J. Lazarus) writes:
> In article <1992Oct12.001559.4705@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
> 
> We are rapidly approaching the point of talking past each other.

	At least we agree on something!

> I wrote
>>> Businesses had about 100 years of Industrialized America to generate
>>> safety watchdog groups before OSHA, i.e. before the government stepped
>>> in.
>  
>>> I dared you to name five such groups.
> 
>>	No, Andy, your argument is that since no pre-OSHA private groups
>>existed, that no group could possibly form to serve that function.  This is, of
>>course, faulty logic.
> 
> This is a mis-re-statement of my argument. As I understand it, you are
> claiming that under Libertarianism watchdog groups will police worker
> safety. 

	No, under Libertarianism there would be no government watchdog groups. 
The common cry is "who will take care of X", to which the Libertarian response
is "private groups are free to perform that function".

> It is impossible, logically, to refute a statement whose
> antecedent is false. If you wrote: "If the Chicago Cubs win the World
> Series, then Andre Marrou will win", I can not refute you.
> 
> Instead we are having an argumnet about PLAUSIBILITY. The fact that you
> have been unable to post a single watchdog group which existed prior to
> government regulation is, to me, a powerful blow at your claim that such
> groups will exist after government regulation is (hypothetically) abolished.

	Far from *can't* I already did.  Labor unions used to fulfill this
role.  As did individual workers by voting with their feet, so to speak.

> I am not trying to prove that it is impossible that such groups will
> exist. I don't think impossible is a meaningful word in that construct.
> Similarly, I would not try to prove that it is impossible that in the
> Communist government the State will eventually wither away
> I will say that neither
> the Libertarian nor Communist prediction seems to be grounded in any
> sort of historical evidence.

	There are examples of both forms of government, as well as most 
others.  However, any failure/success can't be shown to be absolute proof of
[un]viability.  People change.

>>	"Before" UL, there was no private group to assess the safety of
>>appliances/electronic devices.  This, of course, did not prevent UL from
>>existing, did it?
> 
>>	The market responds, it does not create.  Watchdog groups form when
>>people deem it necessary.
> 
> It might be worth noting that UL was not founded by consumers, but by
> another large industry. In any event, your statement that UL exists does
> not show that private-OSHA will exist.

	Industry contributes to UL because it helps them.  So would other
groups.  By stating UL Listed, companies are advertising a degree of safety. 
Consumers look for that.  Other industries would do the same if government
would not put up barriers to competition in the "watchdog" service.

	And your statements that no private pre-OSHA existed do not prove that
they will not exist.

Brett                                                      
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