From: tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 7 Oct 92 06:04:20 GMT
	<6092.2ac9c038@hayes.com> <1992Oct03.035244.20191@NeoSoft.com>
	<6143.2ad1d8e4@hayes.com>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bcoleman@hayes.com's message of 6 Oct 92 18:20:20 EDT

In article <6143.2ad1d8e4@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

   In article <1992Oct03.035244.20191@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
   > In article <6092.2ac9c038@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
   >> Easier to learn? GACK! No way. There's little consistancy between
   >> applications.
   > 
   > There is. It's a different kind of consistency. 

   Oh, I see. INCONSISTANT consistency. I should have known.

   > And you get better feedback.

   How the heck does Windows offer "better feedback"?

   >> Heck, applications can't even decide on a consistant way to stop a program,
   >> at least all Mac applications have File / Quit.
   > 
   > ALT<SPACE> pulls up a standard menu that includes quit.

   Nope. It contains CLOSE. Not Quit. Wrong again, Peter.

Bill, dear, I ask you again:  "WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLOSE, QUIT, AND
EXIT ???!!!???

THERE IS NONE.

THEY ARE (listen closely now) S-Y-N-O-N-Y-M-S.  THEY MEAN THEY SAME THING TO
ALL OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING WORLD.

If you are saying that most users don't understand the meaning of 'close'
or 'exit' I'd have to say you are quite disillusioned.

Quit splitting this anal-retentive hair, please.

Sorry about the caps ...

   > None of that is part of the GUI, except the multiple monitors bit. I'm not
   > talking about the underlying OS (DOS sucks, badly), but the user interface.

   What EXACTLY do you find "more powerful"? 

   >> Less surprising. NOT! Windows lacks consistancy between applications. Quick!
   >> What do the middle and right buttons do on the Windows mouse?
   > 
   > What do they do on the Mac mouse? Oh, they don't have physical buttons there,

   Right. So there's less confusion about what button to press.

Again.  If you want to pretend you have only one button, *use* only the left
button.  The other button(s) are not necessary.  They do, however, make 
certain tasks go easier.

   > Both the Mac and Windows use a single-button mouse model with modifiers
   > left up to the application.

   Except in the Mac environment, the modifiers are defined. See the Apple HIG.

See the Microsoft CUA.  Left-button mousing is very well defined.

   >> Better Feedback? In what way?
   > 
   > More consistent and reliable reaction to user command actions. 

   I find the MacOS tons more consistant. 

   > Closer ties between keyboard and mouse actions.

   I don't see what you mean here. Perhaps you could provide an example.

Well, lets start with the menus.  Alt-<E> is the Edit menu.  All the items
within the menu have an Alt-<> equivalent.  By selecting these with your
mouse you start learing the structure of the menus.  You are constantly
exposed to the keyboard shortcuts for *every* menu item, not just the select
few the programmer thought you might actually use frequently.

Secondly, everything you can do with the mouse you can do with the keyboard.
This doesn't mean it is easier (I would hate to have to resize windows without
a mouse), but the functionality is there.

   >> On a Mac you can jam a diskette in the drive and the OS knows
   >> you've done this.
   > 
   > Not a GUI issue. If you want me to defend DOS you're picking the wrong guy.

   It is a user interface issue, since it is one of the actions the user can
   take. You can't limit user actions to just typing and clicking.

   > What arguments? I'm *suggesting* that you look at how the Windows *user
   > interface* works and see how the Mac interface can be improved.

   I've looked at Windows. I see very little, if anything that works better
   than the Mac. I keep asking you for specific examples, but you keep
   talking in vague generalities.

   >> Wrong. You bring up a dialog window, and ALT <ET>, ALT <EC> and ALT <EP>
   >> (Cut, Copy, and Paste, respectively) won't work.
   > 
   > Good point.

   Ha! Gotcha.

I still don't get this.  When do you need the menus while within a dialog box?

   >> Note that your message didn't even have these correct, or perhaps there's 
   >> even more variance between apps than I thought.
   > 
   > I don't know. I'm not discussing the applications. I'm discussing the user
   > interface.

   Applications are very much part of the user interface.

Except many are written by different programmers, few come with the interface
(meaning not everyone has the same ones), and they all do at least *some*thing
different than all the others.

   >> No, to use shortcuts consistantly, you can't reply on ALT menu activation.
   >> You have to use Shift-DEL, Control-Ins and Shift-Ins for Cut, Copy and Paste,
   >> respectively. These will actually work in the dialog box.
   > 
   > Well, they're pretty mnemonic.

   HA! 

   Acutally, it's worse. MS Changed the standards. Now they are saying to use
   Control-X, Control-C and Control-V. I wonder where they got the idea for
   these?

Macintosh, if I read the other posts correctly.

   >> > Quick, on the Mac, what's the keyboard shortcut for "Print Draft"?
   > 
   >> There's no such shortcut. You print by pressing Command-P. You select 
   >> draft mode in the subsequent job dialog.
   > 
   > I don't want a job dialog. I just want to print something and get on with
   > it (here we get back to GUI versus CLI, actually).

   Then do command-P, and hit return in the Job dialog.

   Windows doesn't have a "Print Draft" keyboard shortcut. The only one defined
   is File / Print (gee, I wonder where they got that from?)

But there *is* a hotkey to select the draft option within the dialog ...

   >> I picked a generic example -- Cut, Copy and Paste. Things that you use all
   >> the time in every application (practically). Notice that you picked an 
   >> obscure example. 
   > 
   > Well, I don't ever use cut myself, just copy and paste. So why should I
   > bother remembering what the Cut mnemonic is.

   You still have to remember copy and paste, and you didn't even do that.
   You're trying to weasel out.

Well, you change operating systems and see how well you remember the Mac's
cut & paste shortcuts four years from now.

   > I do a lot of "select italic font" though.

   OK, what's the shortcut under Windows? (Hint: character styles are done in
   a dialog)

   For the Mac, it is command-I.

   >> I disagree. Come back in 5 years when there's some modicum of consistancy.
   > 
   > That's an application issue. Seriously. 

   Applications are part of the user interface. An important part, I might add.

Applications, their breadth and consistency, change *much* faster than os's.

   >> > In any case, the two suits cover basically the same ground. Xerox invented
   >> > most of the items Apple claimed rights to.
   > 
   >> If you believe that, then you believe that Apple should win the MS/HP suit.
   > 
   > No, I believe that neither of these suits should stand. Apple did have a
   > couple of minor points that were valid but the rest of the
   > Windows interface is no closer to Apple's than it is to Xeroxes. 

   If you support Xerox's claim, then you have to support Apple's. There is no
   middle ground.

Huh?

   --
   Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
   Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
   Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
   POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
   Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
   Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

		---- tomster@wpi.wpi.edu

--
/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
|  The bleeding hearts and the artists  \ /  Words of Wisdom, Inc.            |
|  make their stand.  And when they've  / \  Thomas R. Dibble, esquire, C.E.O.|
|  given you their all, some stagger &  \ /  aka, The Tomster, Tomahawk, etc. |
|  fall,  after  all,  it's not  easy,  / \  send mail/ money to:             |
|  banging your heart against some mad  \ /  tomster@wpi.wpi.edu              |
|  bugger's wall. ---R. Waters, _Wall_  / \  (or don't send it at all)        |
\vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy