HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Problems with hurricane names
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:41:34 EST
Followup-To: sci.lang
 <1992Aug26.211044.2221@nosc.mil> <87197@netnews.upenn.edu>
Organization: Wright State University 


>>>At any rate, we only gender-inflect to describe sexed things: humans,
>>>animals.
>>
>>     And ships?
> 
> How about hurricanes?

Hurricanes used to have only female's names.  Then they got in touch with their
masculine sides.  We'll all be in trouble with the first "Hurricane Butch." Or
maybe something more fitting yet Biblical, like "Joshua."

-----ted hayes
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: paul@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Paul Boehm)
Subject: Re: Rechtschreibereform
Reply-To: paul@cs.tu-berlin.de
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:00:56 GMT

connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:

>Ja, so ein Bloedsinn (pardon: "bloedsinn").  Auch wenn man einige eben-
>falls unnuetze "h" entfernen wollte, wozu denn eigentlich?  Und das mit
>den "hauptwoertern" ist for allem fuer auslaender sinnlos, denn wir sind
>daran gewohnt, die hauptwoerter eben an den grossen lettern zu erkennen.

Schoen. Ich habe mir gerade mal die Muehe gemacht, ein Musterdiktat
abzutippen. Alle Befuehrworter der Gross- und Kleinschreibung sollen
sich den Text diktieren lassen und anschliessend die Fehler zaehlen.
Danach sprechen wir uns wieder.

P. Boehm

--------------------- cut here ----------------------------------------
DIKTAT ZUR GROSS- UND KLEINSCHREIBUNG

Aus dem Testament einer Mutter

Liebe Kinder! Heute nacht nahm ich mir vor, Euch diesen Morgen
einige Lehren fuers Leben des naehern niederzuschreiben. Leset
sie oftmals durch, so werdet Ihr Euch bei Gelegenheit des Naeheren
entsinnen und danach handeln. - Zwar kann ich Euch nur etwas
weniges hinterlassen; aber Euch etwas Gediegenes lernen zu lassen,
dazu habe ich mein Bestes, ja mein moeglichstes getan. Ihr seid
alle gut im Stande, so dass Ihr imstande seid, Euch redlich durch-
zuschlagen. Sollte jedoch einer von Euch je in Noeten sein, so ist
es durchaus vonnoeten, dass Ihr Euch gegenseitig helft. Seid stets wil-
lens, Euch untereinander zu Willen zu sein. Irrt einer von Euch, so 
sollen die uebrigen ihn eines anderen, und zwar eines  Besseren be-
lehren. Achtet jedermann, Vornehme und Geringe, arm und reich.
Seid keinem feind; denn jemandes Feind sein, bringt oft Unheil. Tut
niemand ein Leid an, so wird man Euch nicht leicht etwas zuleide
tun. Euer seliger Vater sagte oft zu seinen Schuelern "Tut nie Boeses,
so widerfaehrt euch nichts Boeses." Macht Euch eine bruederliche
Friedfertigkeit zu eigen, indem Ihr im Streit nach den Worten han-
delt: "Gehst du zur Rechten, so gehe ich zur Linken." Tut nie
Unrecht; seid Ihr aber im Rechte, so habt Ihr recht, ja das groesste
Recht, wenn Ihr Euer Recht sucht. Lasst nichts ausser acht, ja ausser
aller Acht, wenn Ihr Freundschaft schliesst; waehlt nicht den ersten
besten als Freund, und sorgt, dass Ihr unter Euern Mitarbeitern nie
die Letzten seid. Wollt Ihr Wichtiges zuwege bringen, so muesst Ihr
ernstlich zu Werke gehen. Sucht auf dem laufenden zu bleiben und 
zieht nie eine ernste Sache ins Laecherliche. Verachtet nie das
Leichte, so wird es Euch schliesslich ein leichtes, auch das Schwie-
rigste zu ueberwinden. Es ist aber das schwierigste, dass man sich
selbst bezwingt. Seid Ihr in einer Angelegenheit im dunkeln, so uebt
Vorsicht, denn im Dunkeln stoesst man leicht an. Seid auch im Ge-
ringsten nicht im geringsten untreu. Zum letzten rate ich Euch
folgendes: Befolgt das Vorstehende, so braucht Euch nicht angst
zu sein; ohne Angst koennt Ihr dann zu guter Letzt auf das beste
standhalten, auf das Beste hoffen und trotz aller Widerwaertigkeiten
zeit Eures Lebens dem Schicksal Trotz bieten.
From: dchung@efi.com (Daniel Chung)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: [pronunciation] the translated-name character jia1
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:08:39 GMT
Reply-To: chungdan@leland.stanford.edu
Followup-To: sci.lang
Organization: Electronics For Imaging, Inc.


     The character <sound below> for "plus" is usually used to translate
 | |  |  \ /    
 +-|  |   |     
   |  |   |     
sounds in names sounding like "ga", e.g. *Ca*-nada.  However, the original
sound is more like "ga", instead of "jia".  So, perhaps we should actually
pronounce the translated name word as <below>, e.g. Ga1 Na2 Da4.
  // \ /    
 <<   |     
  \\  |    
Of course, jia1 jian3 cheng2 chu2 remains the same.

					Zhong1 Qi3 Iao2, U.S.A.

[Replies go to "Sci.Lang".]
Xref: sparky sci.lang:6896 alt.usage.english:7064
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Problem with 'they' (etc) as 3p singular comm
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:11:19 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1992Aug31.164355.9089@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.182114.929@Princeton.EDU>, mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug31.080413.13815@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>>>Margaret Mikulska (mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU) writes:
>> 
>> As for "they" as singular, I agree that as long as this usage is not
>> taught (especially to foreigners), it may lead to misuderstandings and
>> therefore should be avoided in many texts aimed at foreign audience.
>> And the fact is that it is _not_ taught, whether some people like this
>> situation or not.  Grammar and usage are still taught in a pre- and
>> proscriptive way rather than descriptively.

True.  I was having a conversation with an Austrian fellow over a beer and
somebody else used "they" in this manner.  The Austrian was extremely
surprised.  We then had to spend several minutes explaining.  But then, he also
referred to a female painter as a "paintress," so maybe we ought not to take
this as a good representative example.

> Ethical usage aside, and I agree, as I've posted before, that the generic use
> of masculine gender forms is discriminatory and therefore to be avoided, as
> long as we are saying that people _should_ avoid generic masculines, aren't we
> being prescriptive?  We are trying change how people use language.  This
> particular topic will remain in the prescriptive realm until young children
> learn from their peers to avoid generic "he".

But they DO avoid the generic "he", since it was prescriptive in the first
place.  In a neutral context (and, unfortunately, frequently when the pronoun
should be "he" or "she" as there is a definite gender involved) people use
they" not because they are told that "he" is sexist, but because that is what
they grow up hearing others say -- and because it provides a way of being
neutral towards gender.  Not that I advocate the usage -- it grates on my ears. 
But it serves a useful purpose.

Peter Hoogenboom
phoogenb@ucs.indiana.edu
Xref: sparky sci.lang:6800 soc.culture.celtic:5673
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: [pronouns] Re: Other properties of pronoun usage
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:00:24 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

In article <7sH7PB5w164w@kryton.UUCP> ace@kryton.UUCP (Catherine Beckstead) writes:
>It is interesting that English, for the most part, dropped the
>familiar in favor of calling everyone "you", the formal address.  So,
>as the feudal system went by the wayside, the common folk, wanting
>more respect, went with the more noble address of "you".

If I remember my high school Spanish correctly, most dialects did the
same thing with the second person plural (the formal "ustedes"
supplanting the familiar "vosotros").

My last historical linguistics class was a while ago, so I'll ask
what's probably a stupid question.  How universal are these trends:

	formal replacing familiar (ustedes/vosotros, you/thou)?
	plural replacing singular (you/thou, they/he)?
	objective replacing nominative (you/ye, thee/thou)?
	plural replacing dual (?)?

Are there any I missed?   What languages/pronouns have gone the other
way?

Evan Kirshenbaum
    HP Laboratories
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U
    Palo Alto, CA  94304

    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
    (415)857-7572
From: deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu (Ben Haller)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Pierces and linguistics (!)
Date: 26 Aug 1992 17:56:01 GMT
Organization: Stick Software
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu
Originator: deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu

This was originally posted to rec.arts.bodyart, but I was told it
would also interest people here.  I don't read this group, so if
you have a reply to this that you want me to see, please e-mail me.
Thanks.  (deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu)

  A strange question occurred to me last night while trying to get to
sleep.  It is true that there are cultures that have been piercing the
same body part for at least centuries, if not longer, right?  And it is
true that certain piercings (tongue and lip spring to mind, other perhaps
too) let you make a noise, for example by clicking the barbell in your
tongue against your teeth?  So...are there any cultures that have a
consonant in the language they speak that is impossible to produce without
being pierced in the way that culture traditionally pierces?
  I asked a friend this, and he said "You think too much."  Well, maybe
so.  Hmm.  Have to think about that...

-Ben Haller (deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu)
From: R.S.Hunt@newcastle.ac.uk (R.S. Hunt)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Nasalisation
Date: 29 Aug 1992 02:37:05 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
X-Unparseable-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 11:01:46 WET DST

bhattach@dip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:

> My knowledge of European languages is very limited of course,
> but could it be that the frequency of nasalisation is a common
> characteristic of the Romance languages ? Surely nasalisation
> is quite common in French. Is it common in Spanish and Italian
> too ?

Nasalisation is a pretty common development in languages of many
families, and tends to come and go with time.    It isn't any more
prevalent in the Romance languages than any others;  Portuguese and
French have it, but Spanish and Italian don't.   There are indications
that it may (probably) have occurred in Catalan at one time.   The word
for "bread" in Catalan is "pa", cf. Spanish "pan", and a whole range
of words which end in 'n' in Spanish end in a stressed vowel in Catalan,
hinting at the disappearance of the n, probably through nasalisation
on the French model.

Another modern Eoropean language which has nasalised vowels is Polish;
they are nasalised 'o' indicated by a with a cedilla-like mark under it,
and nasalised 'e' indicated by e-cedilla.   They were once pretty general
in the Slavonic languages, and various traces of their former existence
remain.   The vowels 'u' and 'ja" in Russian mark their passage in that
language, and the diphthong 'ou' in Czech also takes the place of the
former nasalised 'o'.

I am told that nasalised vowels also occur in modern Afrikaans, and they
are not unknown in some dialects of English, though not widely recognised.
Get an Australian to say the word "sandy" and you'll probably hear one!

Richard.
-- 
Richard Hunt                                JANET : R.S.Hunt@uk.ac.newcastle
MSc Course in Computing Science
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
UK

               "Homo sum; humani nil a me alienum puto."
                     - Terence, c.190-159 B.C. -
Xref: sparky sci.lang:6779 soc.culture.celtic:5659
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: [pronouns] Re: Other properties of pronoun usage
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:55:27 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Aug25.193530.1562@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:
|
|"thee bist", not "thou bist"?  I thought that the (American) Quakers
|(and related groups) were the only ones who used "thee" in subject
|position.  (And I believe they use "thee art".)
|
It makes sense though.  It is the same change as in the plural, we all
use the old objective form, "you" instead of the old subjective form, "ye".
So why shouldn't the same change occur in the singular in dialects that
retain the singular?
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Xref: sparky sci.lang:6752 alt.usage.english:6951
From: steve@fulcrum.oz.au (Steve Taylor)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: New words for gender neutral pronouns in English
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:42:49 GMT
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group

In <1992Aug24.025341.12877@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

[.. Lots of stuff from lots of people, for and against gender neutral
    singular "they" ...]

>However, the "age" argument itself is necessary, to counteract all the
>"PC" bullshit.

It isn't for me. People on both sides of this question are arguing from 
historical usage and searching for older and more convincing precedents
to show each other. In my case I use "they" as a gender neutral singular
because....

	i) I perceive a need for some form of non sexist language, as
	I think "he" does imply maleness, even when used in a gender
	neutral context.

	ii) Other attempts at non sexist language ("hir", "he/she", use
	of "she" to include both sexes) sound horrible to me.

	iii) Using "they" sounds fine to me. It fits into my own personal
	model of how the language works. It was only a few months ago
	that I found out there was even any fuss about using it.

All of these are subjective, of course. There's no reason why you shouldn't
find (i) irrelevant, or find (ii) attractive and (iii) ugly. I guess the
point I'm trying to make is that the historical arguments don't have
any meaning to me, and I suspect that they're not very useful for convincing
people on either side of the argument.


						
							Steve
							steve@fulcrum.oz.au
Newsgroups: sci.lang,rec.travel,alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: ederveen@athena.research.ptt.nl (Ederveen D.)
Subject: Free Esperanto Course (regula posxtajxo / periodic posting)
Keywords: esperanto
Reply-To: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:14:58 GMT


Periodic posting about the                              Regula posxtajxo pri la
                             FREE ESPERANTO COURSE

What ?					Kio ?
An online Esperanto course, available	Reta Esperanto-kurso, havebla en ambaux
in both English and French. Based on	la angla kaj la franca lingvoj. Gxi
the popular Free Postal Course of the	bazigxas sur la populara Free Postal
Esperanto League for North America. We	Course de la Esperanto-Ligo de Norda
hope to add courses in other languages	Ameriko. Ni esperas aldoni kursojn en
in the future.				aliaj lingvoj estonte.

How much ?				Kiom ?
Free! 10 lessons.			Senpaga! 10 lecionojn.

How ?					Kiel ?
Tutors in netland will help you,	Instruantoj en retlando helpos vin,
correct your exercises, and send you	korektos viajn ekzercojn, kaj sendos al
subsequent lessons.			vi sekvajn lecionojn.

Why ?					Kial ?
To learn Esperanto, of course!		Por lerni Esperanton, kompreneble!

Who ?					Kiu ?
For you!				Por vi!

Where ?					Kie ?
Send e-mail to me (address: see below)	Sendu e-posxton al mi (adreso: vd.
and I will send you the first lesson,	sube) kaj mi sendos al vi la unuan
together with the network address of	lecionon, kune kun la retadreso de via
your personal tutor. Please indicate	propra instruanto. Bonvolu indiki la
English or French.			anglan aux la francan.

When ?					Kiam ?
Now, if you like.			Nun, se vi volas.

How Good ?				Kia ?
From the very first lesson you will be	Ekde la unua leciono, vi povos skribi
able to write in Esperanto, and upon	en Esperanto, kaj fininte la kurson, vi
completion, you will be able to		povos kompreni preskaux cxiun
understand almost every Esperanto-text	Esperanto-tekston, (helpe de vortaro),
(with the help of a dictionary), and to	kaj skribi simplajn tekstojn.
write simple texts.

I await your e-mail!			Mi atendas vian posxtajxon!

greetings / salutojn,
Derk Ederveen                        internet: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
                                               earn:  ederveen@hlsdnl5.bitnet
(don't use automatic reply on this message)    uucp: ..!hp4nl!dnlunx!ederveen
(ne uzu auxtomatan respondon al cxi-mesagxo)   decnet:        dnlts::ederveen
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: What for?
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:51:28 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1992Sep3.011921.13585@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:
>     Something seems to be odd with the expression "what for?"  While it
>does often mean "why, for what reason, for what cause," it seems not to
>be acceptable idiomatically in certain sentences.  We might well say, for
>example, "Why don't you write me?" but probably wouldn't say, "What don't
>you write me for?"

Um... different kinds of causality, perhaps?  "Why do you write?",
rephrasable as "What do you write for?", is a question about
goal/purpose ({ma te zukte lenu do te xatra} for the Lojbanists),
while "Why don't you write?" is more likely a question about direct
(physical) cause or reason/explanation/justification ({ma rinka/krinu
lenu do na te xatra}).

>When I thought of other instances where the what-for
>construction sounded odd, I noticed the sentences were all negative ones.

They don't have to be.  Just think of examples where "why" is not a
question about purpose.  How about "What are you so happy today for?",
"What are you limping for?"  "What are you in hospital for?" is much
better answered by "to get such and such treatment" than by "because
such and such happened to me".

Conclusion: "what for" asks about goal/purpose; "why" asks about any cause.

-- 
 `If ye hiv ears oan yer heid - then use them tae lissen.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski   (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk;  iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: dsturm@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Journal of the Klingon Language Institute
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:40:27 GMT


	No serious student of Klingon languages can go without
a subscription to the JOURNAL OF THE KLINGON LANGUAGE INSTITUTE, 
>HolQeD<!  For general information, simply send a SASE 
(self-addressed, stamped envelope) to the address near the end.
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1)  tlhingan Hol vs. Klingonaase...
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4)  A syllabus for teaching a Klingon language class...
5)  On Klingon alphabets and orthography...
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of >HolQeD<.  The Summer/June (2) issue included the topics:
1)  Linguistic jokes written into the Klingon language by M. Okrand...
2)  Subtle grammatical usage of the pronoun >'e'<...(by Krankor)
3)  An interview with Dr. Marc Okrand, creator of Klingon Hol...
4)  A detailed discussion of the morphology of Klingon nouns...
5)  Poetry in Klingon, letters from readers, artwork, and more!...
          -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Klingon Language Institute is an international organization 
dedicated to the development, use, and exploration of the Klingon 
languages.  The KLI exists to provide support to those interested 
in learning and studying Klingon languages and culture and as a
meeting ground for other Klingon-related organizations.  

For more information about the KLI, to find out how to join, or to simply
learn how to subscribe to HolQeD send a SASE to:

   ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
   ::   Dr Lawrence M Schoen, Director     ::
   ::   The Klingon Language Institute     ::
   :: PO Box 74, Lake Bluff, IL  60044 USA ::
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with the Library of Congress as ISSN: 1061-2327.  We appreciate
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We hope to hear from you!

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David E G Sturm, KLI Staff Assistant
2521 McGraw Ct
Montgomery, AL 36116-2129 USA
dsturm@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Turkel)
Subject: Is anyone interested in creating a subgroup?
Originator: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:43:40 GMT


It seems like a lot of the discussion on this group is about usage, or aspects
of language in general.  Is it worth having an RFD to discuss a subgroup for
theoretical issues in a particular framework?  For example, the header might
read GB: or GPSG: or LFG: (to use examples from syntax) or whatever the 
equivalent theories would be in phonology, morphology, semantics etc.  I am
not making any judgements of relative "worth" or anything like that; I was
drawn to linguistics by books by Mario Pei :)  If your interested in 
discussing this, e-mail me, or post here.

Bill
turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Nasalisation
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:23:15 GMT

 
Although the poster limited himself to the _major_ Romance languages in
opening the discussion of nasalization, the phenomenon is not limited to
them.  Some of the Campidanese dialects of Sard have some rather fun
phenomena in this area.  As an undergraduate, I had claimed that the
presumed universal change of Latin -ns- between vowels to -s- seemed not
to have affected that area, since the word appeared as /me~sa/.  Only
after I became a sophisticated PhD candidate did I realize that that
dialect had progressive nasalization, and that the -m- was to blame,
not the ghost of the -n- from Latin 'mensam'.  Over further east at
Orgosolo, not only does vowel nasalization occur, but then intervocalic
/n/ is replaced by glottal stop (as is intervocalic /l/),  leaving
reflexes like /bi~?u~/ and /ma~?u~/ for from Latin 'vinum' and 'manum'.
Nasalization also tends to spread in some of these dialects which makes
pleasant fun for autosegmentalists.
From: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com (Richard Wojcik,snake)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Nasalisation
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:39:14 GMT
Reply-To: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com
Organization: Research & Technology

In article 424@orion.oac.uci.edu, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Specifying nasal segments as nasalis OVER specification.  Do any
>languages other than French and Portuguese have PHONEMIC distinctions
>between nasal and nonnasal segments?

One interesting case is Breton, which goes French one better.  They have
nasal vowels phonemes for the high vowels, as well.  And, for some dialects,
they even have contingent vowel nasalization, where French dissimilates
vowels that occur before nasal consonants.  

-----
Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed above are not those of my employer.

    Rick Wojcik   (rwojcik@atc.boeing.com)   Seattle, WA
Newsgroups: sci.lang,soc.culture.celtic