From: M18611@MBVM.Mitre.Org (Kathy Wilk)
Subject: Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:15:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.230645.29990@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>
dsc@gemini.tmc.edu (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) writes:
>
>In what way is this illogical?  There are many, many things that children
>are not allowed to do, which adults are.  Children are quite capable of
>grasping this concept.
>
>>                                              I don't think the child
>>had the least notion of what he had done wrong. The punishment didn't
>>make him less cranky and tired.
>
>Of course not!  The purpose of the punishment was not to make him less
>cranky and tired, as you well know.  Did he hit your daughter again?
>If not, I daresay that he knew what he had done wrong.  Was slapping his
>hand appropriate?  I don't know.  But I have seen cranky and tired children
>that if spoken to sincerely or scolded, immediately retaliate by repeating
>the offense.  (In this case it would mean hitting your daughter again).
>Perhaps this parent had learned from experience that this was how her child
>would respond.
>
 
  This is truly giving the parent a lot of credit where I don't think it is
due.  The child did not hit again not because he necessarily knew it was
wrong but because he knew HE would get hit again.  This is the likeliest
reason for the punishment 'working'.  If a child is cranky or tired, the
wait is long, and he is acting up, let's throw in another alternative -
that the parent get the child out of that environment and give him a rest
or something to eat, or some comfort because the child does not have the
tolerance that an adult does for waiting in line.  Or is the point that
slapping the child is the way the parent teaches the child to like waiting
in line? (Get real, please)
  The parent may have learned from experience that for her child, the least
work for her and the most gratifying action for her (because she was tired
and cranky, too) was to smack.
 
>Please note also, that spanking is a subset of hitting.  People who respond
>to the idea of spanking by relating stories about children being slapped in
>the face, or beaten with belts, are equating apples with oranges.  Spanking
>is a means of inflicting pain with minimal (not the same as noexistent) risk
>of serious injury to the child.  If I were to post about scolding a child,
>would you think it inappropriate to equate that with a story about someone
>screaming and cursing at a child?  (Oh Oh, here comes another thread.)
>
>>                                  The child cried for about 15 mins after
>>the slap. the whole time he was crying the mother was saying how
>>sorry she was that she had "HAD to hit him."
>>
>
>I agree that this kind of behaviour, (the profuse appologizing) is confusing
>to the child.
>
 
  You seem to be saying that smacking a tired and cranky child is THE solu-
tion (not the best solution, for either the short or the long run) for that
mother.
 
>>                                                   Maybe when he hit my
>>daughter the child also felt that he "HAD" to hit?
>>
>
>As a child, I had no problem whatsoever with learning to distinguish be-
>tween hitting without provocation, fighting back, and being punished by the
>time I was four.
>
>I am not suggesting that it would be impossible for a child raised without
>corporal punishment to learn these distinctions.  Just that corporal punish-
>ment does not, by itself, present such a confusion either.  Many children
>have pain inflicted on them because of the mood their parents are in, rather
>than as a consequence for their misbehaviour.  This is not punishment, this
>is abuse.  This is what confuses and harms the child.   Pain, physical or
>behaviour is clearly harmful, and is just as clearly not punishment.
>
>I am astounded, that in the 50 or so posts that I've read so far, no one has
>suggested this.
 
  Abuse is often inflicted by parents who are trying to 'teach a lesson'.
They don't have to be in a bad mood.  The most horrendous abuse that I read
about is not done in anger - it is the kind of punishment in which the parent
uses physical force and then explains away the punishment in the most rational
of arguments.
  What is pathetic is the repetetive way that parents will administer slaps
or whacks, or even pinches, for truly trivial things, and yes, I do think
they should apologize that they have so little control over themselves,
angry or not.
 
                        K. Wilk
                        M18611@MBVM.MITRE.ORG
 
            <--********************************-->
 'Thrusting my nose firmly between his teeth, I threw him to the ground
  on top of me.' - Mark Twain
            <--********************************-->
From: janeth@hpcuhc.cup.hp.com (Janet Helmbolt)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 21:22:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Does Anyone draw their own blood?
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino