From: mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas)
Subject: Re: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Organization: Gordian; Costa Mesa, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:55:16 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.182121.29682@riacs.edu>,  David Christopher Rogers <drogers@riacs.edu> writes:
> Jess said: 
> >   Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
> >   matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
> >   the getting without doing the giving. 
> 
> The United States has a fascinating history of attempted Utopian 
> dreams, and the reason most do not turn out as expected has less to
> do with ignorance of human nature as with the breadth of human nature:
> our violence, our love, our self-interest, our altruism, our refusal
> to learn the obvious and our desire to know all, are difficult to 
> span in one philosophy.

  It almost seems that it is the basis of American culture in many
respects. The Puritans and other religious groups were certainly
trying to create their own forms of utopia, and continues even into
this century with "hippy communes" and the like. Much division and
strife can be linked to the differing views of "utopia". The constitution
in many respects was setup as a document of comprimise which allowed
the various sects to survive without giving any one of them the
power to overwhelm and conquer the other. 
  Interesting angle, btw.

> The modern world has focused on the search for economic utopias, 
> which I find rather curious, given what I see is relative physical
> wealth and spiritual poverty.  The idea that more material wealth will 
> solve our social ills is the current failing utopian dream.

  Is this really true? If one were to simplistically divide existence
into two different realms of economic (ie that pertaining to providing
for our existence on earth) and social/spiritual (ie that pertaining
to our happiness and fulfilment on this earth, and possibly beyond)
it seems clear to me that you cannot obtain the latter without the
former. Conversely, you can survive without being happy. 
  Clearly both aspects are very important and are interwoven in 
many ways. Much happiness can be gained by the very act of working
as an example. But a "utopia" cannot exclude one at the expense of
the other and be in any way viable. A productive ecomony which 
ignores the arts and other aspects of humanity which are ends
unto themselves is bound to fail. People need fulfilment in life
and not just from the act of surviving.
 To claim that we have ignored the spiritual/social side, I think,
is a bit too broad. Even under communism which is primarily an
"economic utopia" a great deal of emphasis was placed on the
arts etc. Capitalist America is certainly not a spiritual void.
Perhaps you (as am I) are not particularily pleased with the 
*content* of spiritual aspect, but to suggest that it does not
exist is or is not pursued is not true.
  As a general note, although I have sincere doubts as to whether
Jess's version of utopia could work, I do not begrudge him to
try to realize it -- so long as it is a concentual agreement
between the members who desire to participate in his dream.
It is when people start enforcing their brand of utopia and
morality on an _unwilling_ populace I draw the line. If Jess
truly meant his post in a light of concentual agreement between
all members of his society where they could dissolve their ties 
if they desired, I retract the implications that he would enforce
his society at the point of a gun.
  In a free society, I can actually envision such "cults" (for
lack of a better word) arising. This certainly parallels David's
post about America's various utopian societies. The beauty of a
free society is that it can accomidate the existence of communes,
Amish, Quakers and Rajnishies whereas, I dare say, the converse
is *not* true.
-- 

		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
		-- Hobbes to Calvin
		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)
Newsgroups: soc.motss