From: pires@vxcern.cern.ch
Newsgroups: soc.culture.portuguese
Subject: Entrevista com o Governador de Timor, Abilio Soares
Date: 6 Nov 1992 19:33:25 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
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                   John A. MacDougall, Editor


No. 327                               November 6, 1992

This issue contains the complete text of a Forum Keadilan interview
with the new Governor of East Timor.

  (FK editorial matter) Abilio Jose Osorio Soares is described as the
Red and White (Merah Putih, Indonesian national flag) Governor.
During the integration struggle, he was one of the founders of
Apodeti in 1974, the party which from its very start chose East
Timor integration into Indonesia.  His political statements in East
Timor after the 12 November Incident led to his being considered
the most suitable "number one man" in East Timor for the 1992-
1997 term.  The 7th of 14 children in a family of Manatutu-
Portuguese stock, he was once herded by Fretilin to a mass grave.
But unlike the 100s of other pro-RI detainees together with him at
that moment, including his older brother Jose Fernando Osorio
Soares who was then Apodeti Secretary General and killed by
Fretilin, Abilio succeeded in escaping from that execution site in
Same in the southern region of East Timor.  When he met
Indonesian soldiers to seek protection, it was only with great
difficulty he convinced them he wasn't Fretilin.  A photograph of
himself with Ali Moertopo helped him persuade the soldiers he was
a Republican.  It was not only he and his brother who were anti-
Portuguese administration in East Timor.  His uncle Jose Manuel
Duarte was known as a leader of the armed rebellion against
Portugal in 1959.  But that rebellion was crushed.  His uncle was
captured and exiled to Angola, then a Portuguese colony in Africa.
It was only after East Timor integrated with Indonesia that his uncle
could come home to the land of his birth.  His uncle is still alive
and lives in Dili.  Abilio is truly known for leaning toward Jakarta.
That is why many expected that the Governor born in Manatutu, on
assuming office, would cleanse the provincial administration from
"two-headed" elements.  "Where I was born, I shepherded livestock.
As Governor, I will shepherd the good people.  I will embrace
Fretilin people who want to become conscious (sadar)," said the
son of a teacher and livestock raiser who only experienced formal
education through lower secondary school.  When in Jakarta 2
weeks ago, he received Ayu Utami, Tony Hasyim, Pracoyo, and
Baskoro in Hotel Indonesia where he was spending the night. (FK,
Oct 29)
  (Interview text begins) Q: In other regions, the Governors are flag
rank ABRI officers (perwira tinggi) or university graduates, while you
only completed lower secondary school.  How do you feel about
it?  A: It doesn't bother me even a little bit.  Why?  Because I was
placed in an area which required me to solve its problems.  There
was no one who understood the East Timorese except us native
sons who learned in the field.  Yes, those others got more formal
education, but if placed in East Timor they definitely wouldn't be
able to hack it.  Now the President has appointed me.  I have to
try, even though I know it's a heavy responsibility.  Q: What
problems does a Governor of East Timor face?  A: A lot.  Q: The
toughest?  A: They're all about the same.  Only possibly there will
be a priority on efforts to unite the East Timorese.  Q: Unite them
with Indonesians?  A: Unite them internally.  The East Timorese
must unite.  Later on we can strengthen the union with Indonesia.
Q: Are the East Timorese really so divided?  A:   We were
compartmentalized by the old parties and still feel that way even
now.  So I am appealing that everyone unite.  The UDT people can
remove their masks.  I, an Apodeti man, will remove my mask.  Let
the Fretilin, Trabalhista, and Kota people remove theirs, too.  Let's
sit down and look at East Timor's problem as our common
problem.  That's more or less what I want.  So far there has been
no such effort.  We have not been appealing to each other.
Rather, ABRI has been doing the appealing.  While we always
watch each other surreptitiously, who wants to stick out his butt.
I want to try it.  I am convinced if I am supported by all sides, I can
definitely accomplish something.  Q: What percent of the people
really agree with integration?  A: If we were pessimistic, say, 90%.
If we're going to be optimistic about it, 95%.  Q: What are the East
Timorese really demanding?  A: Everything.  Q: Is it true one
reason for the 12 November Incident was not enough jobs for the
young people?  A: There are ways of demanding that.  But you
saw for yourself that the incident was coordinated by certain
people so that when the Human Rights Commission came, when
reporters from abroad came, then these people acted.  So they
had other aims.  They weren't job-hunting. (FK, Oct 29)
  Q: Reportedly, when East Timor was opened up in 1988, the
indigenous economy was pressed by the migrants.  A: Clearly that
was the case.  Q: The meatball soup sellers and stall-holders came from
Java.  A: That's right, it's true the meatball soup sellers came from Java.
It was the Javanese who set up all the stalls.  The East Timorese
didn't want to do what others were doing.  Ha, ha, ha.  Q: So what
kind of work did the young people want?  A: Those who hadn't
completed school but could demonstrate?  They weren't the ones
who needed jobs.  But these schoolkids made disturbances.  Why?
There was no good reason.  If a demonstration were held by the
unemployed, we could accept that.  But schoolkids?  How could
we give jobs to schoolkids still in school?  Q: Their education was
at fault?  A: No.  They were manipulated.  And there were no
benefits from it.  There was no guidance of the young generation.
We developed every economic sector, but guidance of the young
generation?  A big zero.  Q: Pak Carrascalao once said he could
not use his full authority.  Do you also feel that way?  A: Authority
in what areas?  Q: As head of the provincial administration.  A: I
have full authority.  Even when I was a district head, I felt I had full
authority.  And more so as Governor.  Q: What about military
interference in the provincial administration?  A: I've never seen the
military interfere in it.  Q: In what time frame?  A: Since the very
start.  Everything was divided up.  ABRI took care of security
problems.  I don't understand.  In what area did the military
interfere?  Q: With the existence of the Operations Execution
Command (Kolakops), isn't the situation in East Timor regarded as
something less than normal?  A: How could he (apparently,
Carrascalao) assure that those in the forests would not disrupt
things?  So long as these people are still in the forests, was he in
a position to say operations should come to an end?  Did he want
that?  Did he himself offer to solve this?  The evidence is, never.
Come on now.  But there's no need to talk about that anymore.
He's a good man.  I will continue what he has already begun.  Q:
Precisely how many soldiers are needed in East Timor?  A: Now
there are 10 battalions to handle all development activities.  There
are two combat battalions (editor inserts: a battalion numbers
between 500 and a 1000 men).  But you had best ask the soldiers.
There are about 8 (apparently, battalions) engaged in territorial
operations (Opster).  I think we very much need those involved in
territorial operations.  Q: But the Opster soldiers are also armed.
Doesn't this influence the people psychologically?  A: Look,
someone is a soldier.  If a soldier isn't armed, he's not a soldier. If
you didn't have your ball-point pens and paper, you wouldn't be
journalists.  Q: Wouldn't it be better if they gave the impression
they were coming bearing hoes?  A: In the field, they do use hoes.
But they still get criticized.  People ask why soldiers have to do
that.  In fact, they are working directly on meeting the people's
needs.  Q: Many say that all development in East Timor is done by
ABRI, leaving no opportunities for the people.  A: Is that what
Bishop Belo meant?  He meant that those active in development
should not be ABRI but the people themselves.  But we know that
the capability of the people is still limited.  We don't have skilled
craftsmen.  I have experience in a district.  If I wanted to make a
new clean water supply, I just provided the pipes and ABRI
installed them right away at no further expense.  If I had told the
people to install them, it isn't certain they could do it.  And if they
could install them, they'd ask to be paid.  That's why we still need
ABRI.  (At this point, an unnamed person sitting in who is identified
as an East Timorese university student adds the following remarks:
Maybe those engaged in development still have to be military but
they should not be so demonstrative about it.  Do they really have
to wear military uniforms with their battalion numbers written on
them?  This makes it look like everywhere everything is the result
of the work of the military.  The uniforms aren't necessary.  Without
them the people will be less tense.)   (Abilio then continues his
own line of thought.)  A: I'm sure that's the elite way of looking at
it.  The fact is though that the people like it because as soon as
things are finished they get to use them.  But the elite still asks
how the people will get work if ABRI does all the jobs.  Q: Isn't this
method "spoiling" the people too much?  A: I also think there
should be limits to it.  It just can't keep going on and on this way.
If there is damage, it will be ABRI again which repairs it.  From one
angle, we have to make the people capable.  We already provide
direction for them.  If something gets damaged, they have to be
able to repair it themselves.  In other words, maybe it's now time
we give them hooks and not just the fish.  But I still believe that
territorial operations remain necessary.  All the more so now with
my programs being focused in the field of agriculture.  I need a
military force to assist me in opening up new farmland. (FK, Oct 29)
  (FK editorial matter)  Abilio was born on June 4, 1947.  "That was
the June in which people were born who later became leaders," he
said, laughing loudly.  Since he was a small child, he really knew
the poverty of the people and their suffering.  He was forced to cut
short his schooling in Dili after competing the equivalent of lower
secondary level (Ciclo de Ensino Secundario) so that the even
younger children in the family, already over-aged, could also get a
taste of school.  In 1968 he joined the Topas (Eurasian) Troops as
a draftee (wamil), an obligation for 18 year old East Timorese of
that era.  With the emergence of the effort to gain independence
from Portugal, he recognized that the East Timorese still lacked
discipline and would be unable to stand on their own.  "We needed
Indonesian aid to just exist."  When his older brother Jose founded
Apodeti (Associacio Popular Democratica Timorense), which very
clearly mentioned in its statutes a wish to integrate with Indonesia,
Abilio signed on as a member.  There is a small incident at the
start of the integration struggle he still remembers.  On the night
Apodeti was formally established, he saw a veteran from the 1959
rebellion who had been exiled to Africa appealing, on his knees, to
a priest, "Father, bless us that we might succeed."  But the priest
replied, "There is no need.  If your intent is good, you will be at
God's side."  Then the fourth Governor of East Timor said clearly,
"We won.")
  (Interview text resumes) Q: What about the position of the
Church?  Reportedly, they remain hesitant.  A: Here we need to
differentiate between the Church and individuals.  I am also the
Church.  The Church is a body formed by a community.  I belong
to that community, so I am also a member of the Church.  Q: Then
why does the Dili Diocese not want to join the Indonesian Bishops
Council (KWI)?  A: There would be no use to it,  Each Church is
independent.  Each Bishop is independent.  They are directly
dependent on the Pope.  If the Dili Diocese wants to be made a
member of KWI, that would only be meaningless progress, just
formalism.  Q: But does this not cause ambiguity in their loyalty,
whether it is to the Pope or to the President of Indonesia?  A: As
for the Church, the loyalty is to the Pope.  As for citizens, the
loyalty is to President Soeharto.  As Bishop Belo admitted, he is an
Indonesian citizen.  That means as a citizen he is loyal to the
President.  As a person, spiritually I am loyal to the Bishop and to
the Pope.  But in a worldly sense, I am loyal to the President.  Q:
What is your assessment of President Soeharto?  A: The President
was raised to Father of Development.  But for me in East Timor,
that's not the thing.  For East Timor, he is Father of Integration.  He
was the first person to accept us as part of Indonesia.  That has
great meaning.  I have taken the initiative to propose that the East
Timor People's Representative Council (DPRD), on behalf of the
East Timorese people, bestow that title on Pak Harto.  Q: Do the
people of East Timor share your view?  A: I once showed a photo
of Pak Harto and Ibu Tien to villagers.  They showed it the same
respect as they do pictures of Jesus.  This is true.  Catholics have
the custom of posting pictures of holy people in their homes.  He
is considered a holy man.  His picture is posted in every house.
My mother once got angry at everybody in a house where that
photo had fallen down.  Q: During the integration struggle, you
were reportedly one of the cadres trained at Tanah Abang.  (Editor
here inserts: The office of CSIS -- the Center for Strategic and
International Studies -- at Jalan Tanah Abang III, Jakarta.)  A: In
1975, at the founding of Apodeti (editor inserts: May 27, 1975),
there were people from Tanah Abang we invited.  We indeed had
been holding discussions with CSIS.  At that time the party had
assigned us to Jakarta to study administrative structures and the
internal political map.  We were also to look at Indonesia's foreign
relations, with ASEAN.  We also went to Kupang to get support
through Governor El Tari (editor inserts: then Governor of East
Nusa Tenggara).  Also to the Indonesian Consul in Dili, Pak
Tumodok.  At that time a Tanah Abang person was already in the
consulate.  Earlier, we hadn't known anyone else.  The Indonesians
we knew about then were only Pak Harto and Ibu Tien, Pak Ali
Moertopo, and Pak Panggabean (editor inserts: then Minister of
Defense and Security). (FK, Oct 29)
  Q: What special characteristics did you have so that you were
elected Governor?  A: Ask those who chose me.  Ha, ha, ha.  Q:
Were you not supported by someone at the center?  A: Isn't it clear
that previously the president didn't know me personally?  Q:
Reportedly you were acquainted with Prabowo (editor inserts: the
son of Professor Sumitro Djojohadikusumo who became Pak
Harto's son-in law).  A: Yes.  I knew him long before he became
the President's son-in-law.  It was when he was assigned to East
Timor in 1976.  His rank was still that of a lieutenant.  He hadn't yet
married one of the President's daughters.  Q: So what's the story?
A: It's a funny story.  I first got to know him in a restaurant.  I was
sitting near him.  After eating, because we were seated so closely,
we chatted.  I saw that he looked worn-out.  I said, you're sick, you
better get examined immediately by a doctor.  'No, I'm healthy,' he
said.  'I've just come from the border.  I'm still healthy.'  Please get
examined, you're sick, I said again.  Then we separated.  One day
my friend Pak Hendro came.  At that time he was a captain (editor
inserts: Brig. Gen. Hendro Priyono, now Director of BAIS, the
Strategic Intelligence Board).  'Hey, Abilio, let's go see a friend of
mine in the hospital.  He's an important man you should get to
know,' he said.  So we went to the hospital.  I brought along some
canned cake.  Arriving at the hospital, I thought, 'Oh, this is the
man I met in the restaurant.'  Evidently, he'd been hospitalized.  He
said something like, 'Oh, it's the man who told me to get
examined.'  But I didn't have any discussion at all with him at that
point.  After I left, he called Pak Hendro, and then I was asked to
come in again.  What's up, I said.  'You said I was sick that time.
You were clearly right,' he said.  I said to Pak Hendro that we
should get Pak Prabowo out so I could treat him.  But the doctor
forbid it.  Later Pak Hendro arranged to get him out using the
excuse that he had to make a very important report.  Then he
brought Pak Prabowo to my house.  I called someone who knew
traditional East Timorese medicine.  He drank two liters of it and
straightaway recovered.  From then on we were close friends. (FK,
Oct 29)
  Q: What were you doing at the time?  A: I had become Head of
the Public Works Service.  Later, in 1983, I was sent to Jakarta.
Then I managed the Indonesian National Sports Committee (KONI)
since back in East Timor I was Executive Chairman of KONI there.
Pak Prabowo came and picked me up.  His father was still
Research and Technology Minister then.  Since Pak Mitro was
close to Pak Sutami (editor inserts: then Public Works Minister),
Pak Mitro introduced me to Pak Sutami.  Then Pak Mitro said, this
is a good friend of my son, please help him out.  So starting from
there, I continued in Public Works and was aided by Pak Sutami.
Q: Perhaps you were chosen because you were close to the
President's family?  A: What's the connection?  There is no link
between the selection of the Governor and my friendship with Pak
Prabowo.  Moreover, if Pak Prabowo could have decided on the
gubernatorial choice, the one chosen would have been Pak Lopez
da Cruz (editor inserts: one of the candidates in the election for
East Timor Governor at the beginning of last September).  He was
Pak Prabowo's friend during the war, and he is closer to Pak
Prabowo than I am. (FK, Oct 29)
  (FK editorial matter) After integration, Abilio was appointed Head
of the East Timor Public Works Service, then served concurrently
as Head of the Public Works Department's provincial office.  Later
he became Mayor of Dili.  For the past 5 years, before becoming
Governor, he held the office of District Head of Manatutu, the place
of his birth.  This man with the thick mustache is the youngest
governor in Indonesia.  From this tall and sturdy figure is often
heard the tinkling of two gold medallions.  One has a picture of
Mother Mary, the other the initials of his name.  His voice leaps
whenever his body starts shaking.  "This is clever.  Every time this
necklace makes a sound, I am reminded of her," he says of the
pendant with Mary's picture given to him by his wife, Maria Angela
Correia de Lemos.  It's interesting that on the body of this man with
4 children there are several tattoos which he said were made when
he was jailed by Fretilin.  On the palm of his right hand is the
picture of a star on which is written, "Hope's Star."  On his chest is
the picture of a dove on which is written, "For Peace and
Freedom."  On his right arm there is an anchor with the writing,
"Everything for You" and the date this was made, "4-10-74."  He
says there are several other tattoos elsewhere on his body, but he
was too embarrassed to show them all.  "This was my work when
inside a Portuguese prison," he remarked while smiling.  (Interview
text resumes) Q: Interesting tattoos.  Very seldom do Governors
have tattoos.  A: Maybe no one yet.  People might be surprised.
They'll say, oh, the tattooed governor, was he ever in a cell.  Ha,
ha, ha.  'Everything for You.'  Who is it?  (Editor inserts: smiling
while stroking his right arm)  East Timor.  Q: What's the story about
your capture by Fretilin?  A: Actually, I was captured at home.  Very
early in the morning we were told to gather together on the pretext
that Fretilin wanted to hold a dialogue.  We were brought a place
which is the present office of the Dili Military District Command
(Kodim).  Unexpectedly, we discovered it was not for a meeting,
but to capture us.  There were 300 people, only 20 escaped.  The
rest were killed.  Q: Twenty escaped like you?  A: Some fled, some
managed to avoid getting killed.  Some were killed but not in a big
sweep.  (Editor inserts: Abilio imitates someone shooting a rifle.)
Q: How long were you jailed?  A: From October 4, 1975.  I escaped
on December 7, 1975.  Q: When did you last meet Xanana?  A: In
1975, the 4th of December.  I was then in a Fretilin jail.  I saw him
from inside the cell.  He was outside the cell. (FK, Oct 29)
  Q: What's the latest news about him?  A: There's a recent report
he entered Dili because his deputy is detained there.  But that's a
rumor.  You want to meet him?  Thanks be to God if you can
convince him to surrender.  He's a dashing man.  Like me,
dashing.  Ha, ha, ha.  I think he's a year younger than I am.  He's
the kind of person who speaks well, maybe like Roy Marten.  Q: Is
the public still experiencing disturbances by Fretilin?  A: You'd best
ask the soldiers.  Q: But you?  A: I don't feel it because I can walk
freely 24 hours a day in East Timor.  I can prove that to you.  Q:
But people say there is still a lot of interrogation.  A: Oh, the
interrogation.  That doesn't mean there's no security.  Q: What is
it which would point to someone getting interrogated?  A: Maybe
the person looked suspicious, maybe like a robber.  Q: That means
it isn't safe, doesn't it?  Q: It's that way in Jakarta, too.  There are
no interrogations in Jakarta?  Outsiders dramatize the situation in
East Timor too much.  In 1979, I went all around east Timor.  Then
there were still hundreds of Fretilin people in the forests.  But they
didn't create disturbances as was widely reported.  Much less now.
Q: Are there other limitations?  A: There are no limitations.  We are
so free that economic crimes occur.  People exploiting the money
which has come in and taking it abroad to invest in Australia -- we
don't know about that.  Q: Economic crime?  A: A lot of economic
crime.  It can't go on.  It's big-time crime.  Q: In what sectors?  A:
Commerce, construction.  Q: Who's doing it?  A: Anyone who can.
I don't want to mention names.  Q: There is a report that the East
Timorese economy has been worsened by the Denok Hatimas
business group which dominates trade and certain imports.  A: I
don't think it's because of that company.  Q: Reportedly, the price
of buying coffee from farmers here is very low and that is caused
by the coffee trade monopoly of PT Salazar (editor inserts: Denok
Group).  A: What I see and hear is that the coffee trade situation
internationally has influenced the coffee trade in East Timor.  Our
coffee can't compete with Brazilian coffee.  So the price collapsed.
This is the problem.  It's not because the trade is run by certain
people, much less because of a monopoly.  Q: You have plans for
new investment?  A: I will be open to it.  Note that because East
Timor has extensive land for estate businesses, we will provide use
rights for 10 years to attract investors.  Q: Hopefully there will not
be investors who are only 'supposed,' ('akan-akan') as Pak
Carrascalao put it?  A: I think they hold off because we ourselves
are not serious about extending our hands to invite them in.  We
should not make use of them without preparing infrastructure.
Through you, I appeal to the business world in Indonesia.  The
East Timor problem is already settled, but the world doesn't admit
it.  Everyone who wants to invest capital, who wants to extend a
hand to lift up the people of East Timor from poverty and
backwardness should come in here as a fighter, not looking purely
at the economic angle, but also looking at the social angle.  Q: But
won't businessmen always stress business calculations?  A: In my
view, if they want ten percent profit, why not just one percent?
Give back the other nine percent for the interests of the people.
Something like that.  Or if they require twenty percent profit but use
local manpower, nine percent should be enough.  I especially hope
that investors who come in ask local residents to become their
partners.  In this way, the Timorese will not only be spectators, but
also doers.  (FK, Oct 27)
  (FK editorial matter) Abilio pours coffee into his cup, offering
some to Forum reporters.  "Use sugar so it will be sweet.  I take a
lot of sugar because my life has been very bitter," he said.
According to Abilio, the wish of the East Timorese to unite with
Indonesia has existed since 1959.  During the 1959 rebellion, the
rebels fought for arms in the offices of the Portuguese
administration, attacking and carrying the Red and White flag.
Abilio, 13 years old then, still remembers three Indonesians who
assisted the revolt.  But because the attack was not done the right
way, they were finished off.  Those arrested were exiled to Angola.
"Many people were killed then by the Portuguese army," he said
softly. The people were oppressed ever since.  Abilio's and many
other families were put on the blacklist.  They were not free to sing
keroncong songs or any songs in the Indonesian language.  "We
knew Indonesian songs then, but not the meaning of the words."
Abilio then related the establishment of the political parties through
the civil war in East Timor.  His tough face suddenly became
melancholy.  In his view, there is no need for the story of the
swallowing up of hundreds of casualties to keep cropping up.  He
intended to go off the record.  "We have already buried a mound
of gold.  Let us unite and help to develop East Timor.  What is the
use of relating that bitter story?" he said. (FK, Oct 29)
  (Interview text resumes)  Q: What has been the impact of the 12
November Dili Incident on the people of East Timor?  A: There are
120,000 people in Dili.  When the incident occurred, about how
many were involved in the demonstration?  Q: A thousand.  A: A
thousand.  And how many died?  Q: A hundred.  A: A hundred,
even more.  Yes, we believe two hundred.  And what percent is
this?  Q: But can't loss of life leave a negative psychological impact
on the public?  A: This is what you outsiders think.  In my view, in
fact many more should have died.  Why only that much?  Why did
not all the thousand die?  We have to see the problem in East
Timor realistically.  Were we undemocratic there?  All the people
already wanted integration.  How come some still wanted
disruption?  Q: Every victim had family and friends.  Couldn't this
lead to the emergence of revenge?  A: Just think, if you had a child
who died, how would you feel?  Just think about that.  If my child
died, certainly I would feel a loss.  If I knew anyone who made a
life disappear, I would feel displeased forever toward that person.
But if we study the matter more deeply, we see that because they
died, maybe they could be quite meaningful.  Because the life of
many people was disturbed by their conduct.  Besides, in this
matter we hold to the principle that it was an incident.  That means
it was not something we wanted.  At a later time there will be those
who reach this conclusion, that indeed it was an incident of which
we can be understanding.  Q: Now as a result of that incident,
Portugal is constantly making an issue of East Timor in
international forums.  A: We should be making demands of
Portugal because they colonized us for 450 years.  That long we
were faithful to and defended Portuguese interests in Asia,
especially Southeast Asia.  We defended the good name of the
Portuguese nation.  And what did they do for us?  In the end, they
left us in civil war.  They left their weapons for the groups in East
Timor to kill each other.  Now they still want to disrupt us?  They
should appeal to the people of East Timor to unite.  And if they
want to retain a role, let them extend a hand to indonesia.  Accept
what Indonesia has already done for the people.  I think that is
what I want to tell the world.  As an individual, I hope that later
Indonesia and Portugal can build good and harmonious relations.
So that, for example, we people in East Timor can build a
Portuguese cultural center.  Because over those 450 years there
were good things they left behind, including the Catholic religion.
That is the best thing Portugal gave to the East Timorese people.
(FK, Oct 29)
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA