From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Gay teens, suicide, Christianity, and Judaism
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 03:05:33 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.003144.2006@gboro.glassboro.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dust In The Wind) writes:
>
>Jack Carroll, in an article recounting his own life story and his several
>attempts at suicide, wrote this:
>
>> These are religions of intolerance and power, and they are obsessed with
>> punishment, bloodshed and death.  Anyone who claims to be a Christian or a
>> Jew and cannot or will not demonstrate that he has repudiated the power-
>> lusting part of his heritage is an assassin poised to rip your throat open
>> as a sacrifice to his blood-drinking god.
>
>And Ken Arromdee has posted several articles claiming that Mr Carroll is a
>`Jew-hater'.
>
>Firstly, the conclusion does not follow.  Mr Carroll specifically exempts
>Jews/Christians from his description if they are not in favor of mistreating
>homosexuals.  If he was a Jew-hater, he'd hate _all_ Jews, instead of those
>who exhibit particular attitudes or behaviour.  The better conclusion is that
>he dislikes homophobes, and he believes (rightly or wrongly) that Judaism &
>Christianity are often correlated with homophobia.

Sorry, but the quote says "anybody who claims to be a Christian or a Jew",
and the quote "rip your throat open as a sacrifice to his blood-drinking
god" is offensive and insulting to Jewish people, and Christian people,
and misrepresents and ridicules the Jewish and Christian conceptions
of G-d.  There simply is no other way to read this, except as hostility and
hatred towards all Jews and Christians, and their beliefs.

>Secondly, while I find a literal reading of this pretty gross, it's pretty
>clearly metaphorical (it's been some time since Christians killed anybody for
>heresy, and even longer since the Jews invaded Caanan).  As a metaphor, the
>quoted section works well to illustrate Mr Carroll's perspective.

Sorry, but this doesn't work.  Some Americans have committed terrible
crimes, but if someone said that all Americans xxxx, that would indicate
hatred and hostility towards all Americans.

>And finally, what I find interesting about Mr Arromdee's reply is that he
>claims Mr Carroll is a `Jew-hater' -- but everything said about Jews was also
>said about Christians, and Mr Arromdee apparently doesn't mind that one bit.
>So far as I can make out, Mr Arromdee thinks that saying unpleasant things
>about Christians doesn't make one a Christian-hater, but saying unpleasant
>things about Jews makes one a Jew-hater.  Speaking badly about Jews is
>bigotry, but speaking the same things about Christians is just criticism, I
>suppose.

No, the cases are different.  The Catholic church throughout many centuries
was very powerful and coercive, and frequently used violence in the name 
of religion. (e.g. crusades, inquisition, etc.)  
This simply isn't true for Jews in the same period.  

>(For the record, I'm a Christian and I do not believe that Mr Carroll is a
> Christian-hater.  While I think he may have gotten carried away with his
> rhetoric, it's not hard to understand why.)

Well, I certainly could 'get carried away with my rhetoric' and people
could 'understand why' if I were to generalize from experiences I've been
through to a whole class of people as well.  But if I were to behave that
way, then if I were called a X-hater, the term would be appropriate, and
I would certainly owe an apology to any X who was offended.

>Darren F Provine (kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu)

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc