HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: HISTORICALLY ACCURATE FILMS
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:07:35 GMT
Followup-To: bit.listserv.history

As quoted from <HISTORY%92040604262935@FINHUTC.HUT.FI> by C581315@UMCVMB:

> 
> Among the recent films I've seen, I'd have to recommend `Glory',
> `A Bridge Too Far', and `Henry V' as some of the films that closely

I'm pretty partial to "The Wind and the Lion".  The costumes and most of the
equipment was pretty accurate, at least within the constraints of availability.
The Marines should have had 6mm Lee rifles, but then there just aren't a lot of
them left!  I've only seen one or two at gunshows.

"Cross of Iron" isn't too bad either, as I recall.  I believe it was filmed in
Yugoslavia, which still maintained and issued a lot of ex-German equipment.


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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:35:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: films & history

On Tue, 7 Apr 1992 08:09:54 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:

> Sounds like circular reasoning to me:  you read history in order to be able
> to read a novel in order to understand history in order to. . . .     ually,

It certainly is circular reasoning; or, rather, circular learning. I
read documents such as novels, parliamentary debates, reports of
government inspectors, private correspondence, newspapers, and
periodicals in order to understand the history of Victorian society.
As my understanding of Victorian society has deepened, I have a deeper
understanding of the nuances and sub-texts in the novels, parliamentary
debates, reports of gov't inspectors, &c., &c. My deeper understanding
of the nuances and sub-texts gives me a deeper understanding of the
society that produced these artefacts, &c., &c. The process comes to
an end when I die.
                                                                        k.
Denis Paz                                                               first
Department of History                                                   e
Clemson University                                                      d with
South Carolina, U.S.A.                                                  s work
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet                                                     time;
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:45:52 EST
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Grant the Incompetent

Jim, I can't resist this response to your message about Presidential loyalty:

Isn't it true that one of the central formative characteristics of our current
President is -- loyalty to old friends?
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 08:13:07 PDT
From:         bob pasker <halfdome!bob@APPLE.COM>
Subject:      films & history
Comments: To: HISTORY%rutvm1.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu

contemporary novels are wonderful ways to understand a time period or
an issue.  madame bovary, for example, never existed, but flaubert
gives a powerful image of 19th C france and gives his acount of the
problems associated with the then-emerging bourgeouis lifestyle.  you
can't teach octavian/augustus without the aeneid, and you can't teach
slavery without uncle tom's cabin.  they're untrue, but they tell us
about the times.  when reading such works we have to be able to
discern the truth from the fantasy, but if we ignore literature as
history we lose an important tool.

the problem with films is that they are modern interpretations of the
past.  we have the same problem with plutarch's biographies, like
those of agesileus and alexander, who lived hundreds of years before
him.  many of his sources are lost and we have no way to check certain
details (maybe the warren comission has had them sealed ? :-).  other
details are known to be wrong: he constantly confounds his dates.  but
that's not why we read plutarch: we read plutarch for his judgements,
his interpretations of the past.

now oliver stone is no plutarch (and the translator of plutarch writes
in his foreward "plutarch is no thucydides", so stone is no thudidices
either.  or is he?) but we have to accept that there are lessons we
are learning from both of these authors.  plutarch wrote his "parallel
lives" to instruct romans and greeks of his era about the
commonalities between greek leaders and roman leaders; each greek
leader is paired with a biography of a roman, like alexander and
caesar.  stone has his place too, as a "close mirror" (as opposed to
tuchman's distant one) of our own times where we see played out the
struggles of the people who grew up in the 60s (me!) to deal with the
authority of government and the fall of "camelot".

--
-- bob pasker: {bob@halfdome.UUCP | rbp@well.sf.ca.us | rbp@sutro.sfsu.edu}
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:50:00 +08:00
From:         S30285@BC750.BITNET
Subject:      The Papers of Robert Morrison

.mt0
.op
Dear Colleagues,

     For  several  years I have been working on a  project  which
will  culminate in the publication of a scholarly edition of  the
papers  of  Robert Morrison (the first Protestant  missionary  to
China,  1807-34;  born 1782; died 1834).  I have  secured  grants
which  have  enabled this work to continue.  I am  still  in  the
collection  stage of the project and have been a bit  overwhelmed
by the extent of the papers still in existence.  They are  widely
scattered  throughout  Asia, Europe and the  United  States  (and
perhaps a few other areas as well, such as South Africa).  I have
already  secured  the largest single collection from  the  London
Missionary  Society  Papers  at SOAS, as  well  as  the  sizable
collection at the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine.

     I  wish to obtain copies of all correspondence both  TO  and
FROM  Morrison.  While I have collected a great deal already,  it
has become painfully clear that there is still a lot "out  there"
that I have not yet seen.  I would be most grateful if you  would
send  me  a note if you know of any papers related  to  Morrison.
Thus  far,  I am finding it easier to locate  papers  written  by
Morrison rather than to him as most of the indices are indexed by
author rather than recipient.

     It also appears that there are some papers in privately-held
collections  that  I would not normally be able to  find  without
some  clue as to where to look.  If you know of  such  privately-
held collections, I would appreciate the name and address of  the
holder so that I can follow up.

     For   those  of  you  in  Europe,  I  know   that   Morrison
corresponded widely with people in France, Germany,  Switzerland,
Portugal,  Italy,  the  Netherlands,  and  several   Scandinavian
countries.   Thus  far,  I am having  a  little  more  difficulty
locating these materials.  If you have any good suggestions as to
how to proceed, please let me know.

     Finally,  does  anybody know the addresses of  any  computer
networks such as this History network which would be accessed  by
scholars  or  religion, religious history, missions  history,  or
Asian  history?   If  so,  I  would  be  most  grateful  for  the
appropriate address.

     Thank you for your time and consideration.

J. Barton Starr
Reader in History
Hong Kong Baptist College
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:38:54 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      re: films & history
              8 Apr 1992 07:25:27 PDT from <halfdome!bob@APPLE.C OM>

On Wed, 8 Apr 1992 07:25:27 PDT bob pasker said:
>
>>Actually,
>>I don't think you gain as much from this process as you'd like to think.
>>Jane Austen is a perfect example:  read all her works, written in the first
>>decade and a half of the 19th century.  You will find exactly 1 oblique
>>reference to the Napoleonic wars.  Surely the times were more concerned with
>>them than THAT.
>
>this is precisely the reasoning that lead to new social history:
>not everybody cares about the napoleanic wars, per se.  i have not
>read jane austin, so i will not try and comment about its relevancy.
>madame bovary, which i have read, was also written *in france* towards
>the middle of the 19thC.  mme.b. is imbued with the *results* of the
>napoleanic wars: the emergence of a bourgeois society.  does that not
>tell you something about that society?  do you only care who won or
>lost?
>
The point is that trying to learn about history and/or society from reading
great literature is likely to lead you to rather bizarre lacunae.  The wars
obviously were not important to what Austen wanted to write about, but they
were ENORMOUSLY important to the times.

As for =Madame Bovary=, the bourgeois society that Flaubert is writing about
emerged more from Napoleon III than I, I should opine.  Further, the book is
primarily about one individual's spirit, *not* a society, emergent or
otherwise.  Are you really serious about trying to learn about the times?
Pick up second or third rate writers.  Almost by definition their works are
firmly time-anchored, unlike the greats.  A much richer source of info.
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:44:17 EDT
From:         Lenny Abbey <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A view from CYBERSPACE
              7 Apr 1992 12:45:25 EDT from <HABOURG@BROWNVM.BITNET>

I think that those who insist on a "scholarly discussion" are either looking
for a pulpit, or looking for endorsement of their own intellectuality, which
they seriously doubt.

Lenny <Erotic Ontologist>
and

      Quincy, Erotic

           -, /|
            O.O
          =(___)=
             U

      Ontological Cat
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:33:02 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: HELP GRANT'S TOMB!!!
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

>................................................. Remembering Grant is remem-
>berring the hundred of thousands (Union and Confederate) who are a part of
>our history. Shame on you, if you call yourself an historian!

Tom,
A monument to Grant totally escapes me.  To you it seems to have the same
meaning as a Civil War memorial.  Remembering Grant to me is to be reminded
how little things have changed, which I don't need a monument to Grant for.

For the record, I am not a historian.  I am also not a fan of memorials to
bolster the image of politicians.  There are more pressing issues that need
attention.

Cheers,
  Jim
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 15:03:00 GMT
From:         "Anthony Behan, University College Galway,
              Ireland." <LAWBEHAN@ORBSEN.UCG.IE>
Subject:      Re: Phillip II of Spain....

>Date: Thu, 2 Apr 92 09:12:29 METDST
>From: George Welling <welling@GUFALET.LET.RUG.nl>
>Subject: RE: Phillip II of Spain....
>
>...
>have almost surrealistic relious visions as subject, see his little
>wheel-chair and his great collection of city-maps (some beautiful ones from
>the Netherlands, which were trying to throw his troops out). He was a very
>small man. And I believe he had some sort of skin-disease (psoriasis?). He got
>a very bad press in the Netherlands, but the spanish call him Philips the
>Great.
>I cannot remember exactly which painting it was, but from his bed he had a
>good view on one of the more "dramatic" painting of Bosch to remind him of
>what hell would be like.
>His relations with women seem to have been "problematic".
>...

Thank you for this, George; I have one or two questions,
however. Why did he have a wheel-chair? Was it for the
skin-disease? Can someone confirm that it _was_ psoriasis?
And, finally, does anybody out there know if he was known as
anything in the Netherlands like _Philip the Terrible_, or
something like that? I know of several Dutch historians who
have called him all sorts of things...Motley described him
as the 'incarnation of evil'; von Rancke called him the
'dilatory hermit of the Escorial'; but what did the people
call him?

Any and all help appreciated!

Anthony.

lawbehan@orbsen.ucg.ie
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 18:50:00 EDT
From:         PETER KERSTETTER <STUACTPK@UNCWIL.BITNET>
Subject:      American History Books

        For books relating to US History at the 300 level, I strongly
recommend W. J. Cash's _The Mind of the South_ (NY:  Knopf, 1941).  Cash's
book is a very coherent novel of the Southern experience since the Civil
War, specifically relating to the South's intellectual history.
        A good book to read about how Southerners reacted to criticisms
about their region, specifically H. L. Menhen's "Sahara of the Bozart"
(1917), is _I'll Take My Stand_, written by 12 Southern firigitive poets
from Vanderbilt University in Nashville, TN.  The book is a collection
of twelve short essays which criticize the ideas of progress and modern-
ization and work for the promotion of the Southern agrian habitation.
Even though _I'll Take My Stand_ was not a popular book when it was
published, it represents a significant literary contribution to the
Southern Renaissance.  It was published by Harper in 1930.

I hope it helps.
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:31:35 -0400
From:         Prof Norm Coombs <NRCGSH@RITVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      request for info on history lists etc.

     I have been off this list for many months and am trying to squeeze time to
keep up with it again.  I recall seeing passing info about other history lists:
histec-l and I think one on world history.  Does anyone have a comprehensive
list of history lists?
     Also, I recall noticing something about an anonymous ftp site with some
history documents.  Can anyone catch me up to speed, please?
Norman Coombs
Rochester Institute of Technology
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 92 09:45:19 METDST
Reply-To:     History <HISTORY@IRLEARN>
From:         George Welling <welling@GUFALET.LET.RUG.NL>
Subject:      Re: history & movies
              at Apr 6, 92 11:38 am
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history


I think the Italians did some good movies with historical background.
Pier Pasolini's Decamerone and his Chanterbury Tales are nice, if you can
stand the "picaresque" elements. I have never seen his "Salo", but that one
seems to have gone a bit astray.
Novecento, by Bertolucci, and The last Emperor by the same man were imho
masterpieces.
I don't know how historically acurate it was, but I liked "El Cid". And I am
very fond of the old action-movies : Spartacus, Ben Hur, Cleopatra, The charge
of the light brigade etc.
But I think it's more entertainment than history I look for in movies.
--
===============================================================================
|   __   __            || George M. Welling         ||   __   __              |
|  /  '-' (         ,, || welling@let.rug.nl        ||  /  '-' (         ,,,  |
| {  I I ||||||||||[::]|| dep. Alfa-Informatica HCI || {  I I ||||||||||[:::] |
|  \__.-._(         '' || University of Groningen   ||  \__.-._(         '''  |
| tel : +31 50 63 5474 || The Netherlands           || fax : +31 50 63 4900   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 92 08:54:16 EDT
Reply-To:     History <HISTORY@IRLEARN>
From:         Ed Haupt <haupt@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
Subject:      Re: Latin Dictionary on PC?
Comments: To: History <HISTORY@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>


This is a good question for HUMANIST, a moderated list.  Send your message
to editors@brown.edu

Ed Haupt
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:32:00 EST
From:         "PRINCEPS IMPERATOR" <MACYM%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: films & history

What does 'IMHO' mean?  I see it a lot and still haven't figured it out.

        Matt
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Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1992 19:13:00 EDT
From:         PETER KERSTETTER <STUACTPK@UNCWIL.BITNET>
Subject:      Nero in Films

Nero has often been shown inaccurately, but sometimes Hollywood has to
tone down real life.  In the movie _Quo Vadis_, we see Nero strangle his
wife, but if I am not mistaken, he beat and kicked his wife to death.

Sometimes, I don't think that people can stand to know what really happened.

Peter
STUACTPK@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 08:37:48 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Social History

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:55:00 CDT Dave Rausch said:
>
>Then again, here at the University of Oklahoma, there is a professor who
>teaches the history of Modern Europe without spending more than one week of
>a 15 week semester on armed conflict.
>
That's about right.  I remember Prof. Diehl's 20th century class back at
good ol' IU spent about a week each on WWI/II, and the rest of the time on
causes, aftermath, diplomacy, economics, and anything else happening.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 08:02:19 MST
From:         Skip Knox <DUSKNOX@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Latin Dictionary on PC?

I fetched that word list -- thanks Lynn!!!

I should remind any of you who are WordPerfect users that WP comes with
a little program called SPELL.  It's in your WP directory.  You can feed
that Latin word list to SPELL and have all the words added to your main
WP dictionary.  Refer to your manual for details -- or ask your
friendly computer center support personnel.  ;-)

Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu
PC Coordinator & Faculty Computer Lab Supervisor
Professor of History
Boise State University  Boise, Idaho
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 10:08:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Social History

On Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:55:00 CDT Dave Rausch <AA0279@UOKMVSA.BITNET> said:

> I may be showing my ignorance about history (I am a political scientist), but
> can't all history be considered "social history?"

Historians conventionally divide up the past into political history,    ho
economic history, diplomatic history, social history, cultural          ek of
history, and probably some more categories.

The popularity of these categories changes over time. At the beginning
of this century, political, economic, diplomatic, and intellectual
history were riding high, and the profession was not interested in
asking other questions of the past. The way that these categories
were written about also changes over time. Political history meant
the history of high politics. Then {sticking to my own speciality},
in the 1930s, Sir Lewis Namier came along and studied politics from
the point of view of the constituencies, of family alliances, and
looked at the backgrounds of ordinary backbenchers in the House of
Commons, rather than restricting himself to the "important" cabinet
level politicians. Similarly, diplomatic history used to be defined
as "what one clerk wrote to another." Then, diplomatic historians
began to look at the private papers of foreign secretaries.
(Now, I think, diplomatic historians are interested in the interplay
between domestic political/economic issues and the formulation of
foreign policy.)

Round about the same time as Namier, there appeared G.M. Trevelyan,
who wrote social history, which he defined as "history with the
politics left out" (not a precisely accurate quote), and G.D.H. Cole
wrote the history of the common people of Great Britain. Historians
of labour wrote history that was the history of institutions.

Now there is the new social history, which another member of this
list referred to in his or her good comments. E.P. Thompson in his
seminal work, _The Making of the English Working Class_, moved away
from the history of institutions to reconstruct the mental universe
of artisans and radicals.

It has been said that the new social history finds politics in
everything--the body, popular revels, &c.

Denis Paz
Department of History
Clemson University
South Carolina, U.S.A.
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:20:53 EDT
From:         Michael Cammer <cammer@AECOM.YU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: History and Films
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "DA_AZIZ@ACAD.FANDM.EDU" at Apr 8, 92 12:44 pm

>         I think some people may have missed my point of my original
> posting about this topic.  I would have replied sooner but I seem to
> be receiving my HISTORY mail rather weird for the past few days.  Anyway
> when I asked the question, I specifically asked about movies that make
> such HUGE errors that even non-historian type people might know. I also

What about _Bugsy_, the Academy Award winner, the true life factually
correct tale of Bugsy and his one-man (with a bit of help from his
girlfriend) creation of a desert empire?  The last scene of the film
screams, "This is history!"  Without those five or ten seconds, we
would think, oh, just another love story w/ fancy sets and costumes
(and lots of blood).  Either way, this film is neither wrong nor right.

--
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Historically Inaccurate Film/tv
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:03:44 GMT
Followup-To: bit.listserv.history

As quoted from <HISTORY%92040514142633@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> by PATODZIA@SUVM.BITNET:

>      And, they never seem to get his age right.  He was 16 when he became
> emperor, and was dead at 31.  I recall a <Dr. Who> episode where Nero
> appear much older. In one of those Warner Bros. cartoons, he is a fat, short
> old man.  He looks more like  Claudius perhaps.

That's on account of him having been played at least once by Charles Laughton,
who oddly enough, was a short(?), fattish, older man! :)

If you get a chance to see the cartoon again, I'll bet Nero looks a LOT like
Charles Laughton.  Spoofing live actors was a stock in trade of the Warner
cartoons.

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