HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing rounds
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:44 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

I'm restarting this thread because I have most of the materials, and
am seeking some advise regarding same.

Ed Rudnicki was kind enough to send the armor plate (12"x12"x1/2") and
I've gotten the WWII .30-06 AP rounds.  I haven't had as much luck
with the .220 Swift as I wanted, but the "Accelerator" rounds from a
.30-06 have the same velocity with the same projectile - will folks
accept the results of this?

The plate is a bit past the "pitted" stage of rusting, so I've got a 
couple of problems there.  I can't angle up the plate to reduce the 
chance of dangerous ricochet - the danger is from pretty much any
angle.  I'm going to go to a frontal shot with a small angle (down)
from the vertical and fire from a shielded position.  I'm also going
to try to take the place to smooth metal in a couple of places for the
shots so the friction of the rusted areas doesn't improve the grip of
the bullet.  I'm not spending a lot of time on this last part as I
don't have that much time.

I've got a couple of other potential AP rounds (Chinese steel core,
etc.) and may report on their effects as well.

I'll try to take pictures with scales for later measurement and
possible GIFing.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:08:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1e9a7eINNdrf
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET () says:

#<It half-cocks.  You cannot cock the gun using only the trigger. 
#<You cannot cock the gun without moving the slide.  If you hit a dud
#<you cannot hit it again using only the trigger*.  When this is
#<the case, you know you have a sigle action gun, _a gun whose trigger
#<cannot fully cock and release the hammer_.

#Listen, this could be endless as long as your definition of single 
#action keeps changing. Before it was "the trigger cocks the gun"

"fully".   I thought you understood that.
ie. "trigger fully cocks hammer(/hammer equivalent)"
ie. "no slide movement(/manual hammer manipulation) is required
because the trigger does the whole job of both cocking and releasing
the hammer from start to finish."

The two actions in question being 1) releasing the hammer
2) fully cocking the hammer, a DA trigger is capable of 
both.
	My def has not changed.
DA: the trigger both fully cocks and releases the hammer
SA: the trigger cannot both fully cock the hammer and release it.

There is no functional distiction between "safe" action and single 
action ala 1911 with a long heavy pull.   There is nothing to distinguish 
Glock action from a 1911 modified to have a long, heavy, creepy, 
single action trigger pull.   A heavy trigger 1911 would fit your 
description of your Glock below, no less than your Glock does.

#That, the Glock _does_.  Now if you extend the definiton to "if you hit
#a dud...".   No, you are right, the Glock can't do that.  This will 
#never be clear cut.  Because the Glock has some operational features 
#typical of DA, and some of SA.   That's why you and I ought to be happy 
#with "safe action" as a description.  Now to belabor the point: since
#I hit duds very rarely, the Glock is _effectively_ double action
#most of the time, and, conceding your point, single action whenever
#I hit a dud.  Happy?

ie. 	"my sa gun is essentialy da because it has a heavy
	trigger pull that feels like the first shot on a
	da and because except when I need to rack the slide
	like I would with any other sa it is _effectively_ 
	just like da."
Fine.

   Jim "I consider my 1911 to be essentialy da because I put a 
	real heavy trigger pull on it and because except for 
	when I hit duds (which is rare) it is _effectively_ 
	just like da."   Del Vecchio
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:15:15 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <viking.721891549@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#
#	I remember a thing known as "Turkish Revenge."  Basically, if
#you shot somebody below the waist it wasn't considered attempted murder
#but only assault with a deadly weapon.  While I strongly discourage
#aiming for a knee or something like that, in these situations it might
#bear discussing whether a DA would consider it attempted murder or if
#it could be considered a method of stopping a perp and ending the threat.
#
#	[MODERATOR: Let's underscore right away what said jury would
#	 hear, then you be the judge about sympathy:  "So, Mr. Sorenson,
#	 you DECIDED to shoot my poor client in the kneecap, rendering
#	 unto him a permanently disabling wound with extensive pain and
#	 suffering.  If you had time to decide this, then did you really
#	 feel you were under threat of immediate bodily harm? In fact,
#	 sir, your own action demonstrates that at that moment you did 
#	 not feel that deadly force was warranted, contrary to what you
#	 claimed earlier.  Which is it REALLY, Mr. Sorenson?"  Let's not

IMHO the best scenario is BLAM BLAM BLAM.....BLAM BLAM click click click.
Insert the appropriate number of BLAMs for your weapon. This will almost
always be considered the terror reaction of a citizen confronted with a
deadly threat. And there's only going to be one side to this story. My
local Chief privately advises to never stop shooting until you're sure
the perp is dead, even if that means reloading. *Then* call the police. 
When the officer arrives to scrape up the body, say only "He had a crazed 
look in his eyes and advanced toward me screaming, "I'm going to kill you!""

Gary

[MODERATOR:  Hmmmm.  "Even if reloading."  Maybe we should modify the
overall advice slightly ... if said Bad Guy happens by when my wife has
the Glock 21 out, then probably she doesn't want to run through all three 
spare mags in the drawer.  There is a fine line between defense and
recreation.  But your point is well taken....]
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no relia
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:32 GMT
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <199211171713.AA28975@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com>
kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

#In article <7624CA0F00001A29@UALR.EDU> hudson@ualr.edu writes:

##BTW  They also have a choice in rifles of a Ruger Mini-14 or the Colt  AR15
##(which would you choose?).

#This is an interesting choice. I always wonder when would one pick his
#rifle for defense purpose, assuming he is a regular citizen and he has
#other choices like handguns and shotguns. ( Noting the plural nouns ;)
#
#When I took an AR15 shooting class from a cop, he told me the regular
#stuff: I wish you would never have to use it for self-defense purpose.....
#I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
#use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

I will use my laser-sighted .308 SIG AMT, loaded with 20 rounda of
frangible ammunition, unless I have no other weapon at my disposal.
The 18" barrel makes it handy around corners, the softnose ammo will
not penetrate decent drywall, and the laser makes it useful for point
shooting.  The bayonet makes for a very significant advantage in close
quarters.  Whenever overpenetration is not a concern, I will switch to
a magazine loaded with FMJ surplus, as the wide availability of
bullet-resistant clothing among certain antisocial types makes
anything other than a head shot extremely problematic in the
conclusiveness of its effects.  Otherwise I aim for the face.

Compared to a battle rifle, any other civilian small arm falls short
on accuracy, range, ergonomics, versatility, firepower, and stopping
power.  Except for upland shots, the only reason to use a shotgun is
to comply with restrictive hunting legislation.  Pistols are good for
concealment or reflex shooting; as long as I have the use of both
arms, I prefer a full-sized weapon.  Such are my opinions, for which I
claim no general validity whatsoever.

#David
#-- 
# K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
# Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
# U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
" -- I shall speak bluntly, because life is short."
From: $$$CBFI@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu (Jack Schudel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Small autos for carry
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:08:25 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, NERDC


In article <1992Nov10.062351.13270@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
 
#
#I wish they made another version of the Ladysmith.  (This may sound
#silly:) the gun design seems ok, but I think I would like it more if
#it didn't have that name etched on the side.
 
Look for the 3913NL (Non-Lady).  It is the same thing without the
etching.
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Lyman's Reloading Handbook 47th ed is out
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:45:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Nov16.025119.16273
Organization: North Carolina State University


  It really is - I have a copy of it.  It is perhaps a
bit longer - about 15 more pages, and it has new calibers
and powders, but I haven't gone through it carefully.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: U53734%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Wesley Bielinski)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: too much realoding
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:53 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <1992Nov18.191748.10358@afit.af.mil>, morlan@afit.af.mil (Bruce W.
Morlan) says:
#
#My understanding is that diesel is so hard to light off that even
#tracer rounds may not do it.  Any confirmation?
#
#--
#Bruce W. Morlan, Major, USAF             Air Force Institute of Technology
There's a movie called Deadly Weapons.  It has the guy firing into a
half full auto gas tank with military incediary tracers and it don't go
BOOM! until he places a lit torch near the tank and fires again KABOOM!
The movie also dispells a lot of fallacies about tracers, full auto
firing, bullet-proof vests, and car penetration (by bullets) Good film I
rented mine in northern NY while in the Army, sorry don't know who makes
it or where to get it. :-)

Wesley J. Bielinski                    | "I love my country,
SGT, USAR       U53734@uicvm.uic.edu   |   it's CLINTON I fear!"
12th Special Forces Group (Airborne)   |     Support RKBA
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Plastic Magazines
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:52 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <9211220431.AA14901@relay1.UU.NET> kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT) writes:
#
##In article <1992Nov18.171411.17005@netcom.com>, pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
### Does anyone have any experience, good or bad, with Ramline's 18-round (!) Sig
### P226 magazines?  I was considering ordering a couple, but would like to know
### what their reputation for reliability/durability is.  Thanks in advance...
### Paul Yoshimune
<Stuff about plastic mags surreptitiously disincluded>

I think a better idea would be to get SIG factory mags, which are
available in up to 30 round capacities (I think there's an 18-round
version, but I can't find my SIGARMS Quarterlies; I think they might
be at work....). Maybe it's just me, but I can't see putting anything
but a SIG magazine in my P226...

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	I feel lucky, I feel lucky yeah
	Hey Dwight, Hey Lyle, boys, you don't have to fight,
	Hot dog, I feel lucky tonight
			--Mary-Chapin Carpenter, "I Feel Lucky"
From: mfolenta@pica.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:23 GMT



     Hello there Jim.  Usually I just think of you as the mysterious
 'magnum@cs.umd.edu' behind the scenes of rec.guns.  Kind of nice to
 hear/see you as a person too.

     Well, to get more to the point, I think you a doing a good job
 with moderating rec.guns and don't think the newsgroup operation
 should change.  I do not want to see rec.guns become unmoderated, do
 not think an 'alt' group is needed (although who can really stop an
 alt group anyway :-} ), and as I said earlier, you are doing a good
 job with the moderation of the newsgroup, so a new moderator is
 unneeded/uncalled for.

     As for the comments/wisecracks, well that's just one of the perks
 of the job of moderator, right?  Your comments are just fine and
 acceptable as they are, neither excessive nor abusive.

     Keep up the good work as moderator.

     Thanks Jim.

       ***** These are my opinions.  Get your own. :-) *****
      Michael Folenta          | U.S. Army ARDEC
   Future Weapons Branch       | Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000
  email mfolenta@pica.army.mil | (201) 724-3880  [AV 880-3880]
From: qui@aus.intel.com (qui hoang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FN-FAL "Heavy Barrel" BELGIUM RIFLE FOR SALE
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:03:14 GMT

FN-FAL "Heavy Barrel" (FN Model 50-41 FALO) imported from BELGIUM by Steyr
Daimler Puch of America, Inc.
 
 o CONDITION:
   - 98% (about 400 rounds fired)
   - has matching numbers on receiver, bolt, and bolt carrier
   - has original FN box, FN manual
 
 o SPECIFICATIONS:
   - .308 (7.62x51 mm NATO)
   - semi-auto version of FN-FALO squad automatic rifle
   - wood handguard, plastic stock
   - milled receiver
   - adjustable gas port
   - built-in bipod, and carrying handle

 o EXTRA ACCESSORIES WITH RIFLE:
   - ten 20-rounds magazines
   - Isreal wood stock
   - your choice of ONE of the following three:
        - ARMS scope mount
        - a custom-made scope mount (same type used by Chuck Taylor in his
          "The Fighting Rifle" book.) I paid $200 alone for this mount
        - Leupold M8-4X scope

$1,500, from my FFL to your FFL. Local buyer will be given special attention.

Email or give me a call at (503)696-4368
Thank you.
From: SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Fluxing w/ sawdust???
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:00 GMT


 
  I remember reading that you could remove the dross from molten lead
  by using sawdust.  Anyone know anything about that?  I may be confused;
  is this the same thing as fluxing?  

  I know a little about fluxing with beeswax.  That sure brings up the dross!
  Could paraffin be used instead?   Sure would be a lot cheaper...

  Appreciate any advise on casting.  BTW, I bought a 100 # of lead last nite.
  $.50/lb.  Plan on doing it again in two weeks.  50-50 solder is currently
  running $7.50 #.  Better stock up before it's too late.  ;-)

  How's this for an idea?  Instead of a 50% surtax on lead, add a tax on PAINT.
  After all, it is *PAINT* that is the problem (well, the lead _in_ paint_);  
  $.05/pint, $.10/quart, and $.25/gallon.  This seems like it would focus the
  *cure* much more towards the *cause*.  If you like this idea, you know who
  to write to...  If they add a tax on lead, would this be double taxation?
  Ammo already has the 10% or 11% Pittman-Robertson tax!

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
|  Mike Wuest, Allin1, DDN, & VAX Systems Manager  SYSTEMM@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL |
|  "If it wasn't for our guns, we would be British citizens.  Think about it!"|
| Disclaimer: Opinions are like ears; everybody has a couple - these are mine!|
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
From: hacker@coos.dartmouth.edu (Fred L. Hacker)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Questions/opinion on Beretta 92
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:39:28 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

I rented a Beretta 92F(S? the full size 92) last saturday.  It seemed like a beautiful gun.  It was very accurate and I really liked the feel and ergnomics of it.  I have primarily shot with revolvers in the past but I have been wanting to get a 9mm or .380 automatic for a while now.  Needless to say the Beretta is now high on my wish list but before digging deep into my bank account for it I wanted to ask a couple questions.  First, I'd love to hear how happy anyone who has the 92 is with it.  The press I

 have seen on the 92 has been very positive. Are there any drawbacks to it I should no about.  Does it have a firing pin block safety?  Does it have a magazine safety?  Has anyone tried the compact 92?  If so how does it compare with the full size?  Finally are there any other comparable 9mm's I should try before buying (I've heard good things about the SIG but they did not have one I could rent at the range, it also seems quite a bit more expensive)?  I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone on this.  I 

w
as really impressed with the 92 at the range.

Thanks in advance,
Fred
From: craig@osf.org (Craig Peterson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:48 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation

In article <1992Nov18.193935.7695@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#When he refuses to cooperate, I cock my gun and inform him: "This gun now
#has a 2 oz. trigger pull.  It will go off if I breathe on it.  It's going
#to stay that way 'til you lie down."

This may not be the best of ideas.

If the perp gets shot you've opened yourself up to a civil suit which
could end up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If the shoot is perfectly justified from a criminal standpoint, and
the individual or his estate wants to come after you, your insurance,
and your assets they will try and show that the shooting was
accidental.  A breath-light trigger most certainly would allow them to
win.

Many highly respected sources prefer a double-action only handgun for
self defense.  It is much harder to prove that the shooting could have
been, or actually was, accidental.

How much does the perp have on the line?  How much do you have on the
line?  Given the opportunity they'll usually flee when confronted, and
given an easy escape route.



-- 
Craig Peterson, n8ino	craig@mainstream.com
PO Box 1120, Merrimack, NH  03054-1120
Unless otherwise noted opinions expressed are not those
of my employers.
From: robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Zamak = Zinc?
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:05 GMT


In article <1992Nov18.164744.29565@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)  
writes:
---------------deleted---------------
# Actually the name Zamak has been in common usage for 40 years, that I  
know of,
# and is the name of _one_ zinc alloy.  Therefore, in car parts or  
firearms,
# Zamak is synonimous with zinc alloy/junk/potmetal/sleaze, and is _not_
# a euphemism or attempt to portray a junk firearm as quality.
# 
# It's like describing a _particular_ stainless alloy as Monel. 
# 
# --------------deleted---------------
# 
# 
# Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
# 			Redmond, WA
# 			reb@amc.com

Hmmm...

Well I think I would take issue with Zamak being "in *common* usage",  
unless talking about the metallurgical community  :-)

I've been shooting for 20 years and have never heard of it (or don't  
recall having heard it).  You are clearly quite a bit more knowledgable  
than me on this topic, and I suspect more knowledgable than about 90+% of  
the others out there who read the article.  I haven't heard of Monel  
either.

Metallurgically Impaired, but shooting straight,

:-)
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357 in a 9mm
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:08 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9211181912.AA10177@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca>, by keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla):
# 
# This is probably a silly question but, is there any problem with
# reloading 9mm with .357 JSP bullets?  I tried a few rounds and
# though they are shorter & shaped differently from 9mm JSP bullets,
# they fed ok in my Hi-Power.  The Speer .357JSPs are somewhat cheaper
# (where I shop) than Speer 9mm JSPs & I would like to load a lot up
# to break in my Hi-Power.
#

Well, it's been a few years, but I remember reading an article or
2 in the gun mags (G&A?) about doing this and also about going
the other way.  If your Hi-Power is on the large side (bore), you
might notice an improvement in accuracy.  Seems like it would be
hard to get data for the heavier bullets. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:40:52 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280

#>>>> On 21 Nov 92 13:19:17 GMT, alexank@chert.cs.orst.edu (Kelly Alexander) said:


alexank> I had and experience that suggests that you won't loose your
alexank> gun if you come to the door with it.  About 2am I came home
alexank> and as I was driving up the hill, a jeep started following me
alexank> with it's lights out.  I pulled into the driveway and when he
alexank> followed, I ran into the house and dialed 911 as I grabbed
alexank> the 1911A1 out of it's hiding place.  While talking to the
alexank> operator, I heard someone trying the door out front and
alexank> chambered a round.  The operator asked what that noise was
alexank> and I told her, so she told me that she would inform the
alexank> officer that I was armed.  When he came to the door (and
alexank> called out that he was Medford PD), I answered it with the
alexank> gun in plain view.  He told me to stay inside and keep my gun
alexank> handy. 	After he searched the grounds he said to keep
alexank> everything locked up and call again if I saw anything else.
alexank> The officer never made a fuss over the gun, nor did he seem
alexank> to mind an armed citizen.

What happened to the jeep?

I am sure that if the officer didn't know from the dispatcher that you
were armed, he would be a little bit on the carefull side.  Its the
unexpected that makes people scared.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|\///\\\/\///|                rtaraz@wpi.wpi.edu                /  Is today \ |
|\\//\\//\\//|       1988 EX500 (missed dearly until spring)    | a good day| |
|\\\/\///\\\/|       DOD # 0740  ||  Taurus PT-92AF             \  to die?  / |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mbehrens@barqs.amd.com (Mikael Behrens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Remmington Mohawk & the scout concept
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:50:36 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

Yesterday I purchased a Remmington model 600 in 308 Winchester and so far I'm  
quit pleased.  It's a nice little gun.  I was interested in putting a long  
eye-relief forward-mounted scope on it to make a primitive scout rifle.  Has  
anyone done this?  If so, I'm very interested in hearing about what kind of  
scope you used, what kind of rifle, how you like the forward-mounted scope  
idea in general, etc.

Thanks

Mikael