HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pcp2g@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Gilligan)
Subject: Re: _Fire Upon the Deep_ jokes? (PUN SPOILERS)
Reply-To: pcp2g@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Gilligan)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:32:45 GMT


In article <QegrD8m00VpNRGcVkw@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Andrew C. Plotkin"
<ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> Just finished Vinge's _Fire Upon the Deep_, a most entertaining and
|> fascinating book....
|> 
|> 
|> This led me to look for other awful jokes. 
|> Was there some famous ruler of our history named Whittler?)

Gee, I can't think of any mid 20th century German dictators with that
name. How about you? 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)  8-)8-)  8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

* Phil Plait                  PCP2G@astsun.acc.virginia.EDU
'Oh yes, that nice Mr. Bimmler, and his friend Hilter.' 
				-Monty Python
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: ss1@kepler.unh.edu (The Rink)
Subject: Re: Terry Brooks (was Re: Piers Anthony)
Organization: Turkey Hall
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:25:44 GMT

>Terry Brooks, by contrast, is a very clever plagiarist, having discerned the
>bare minimum of serial-filing-off required to avoid his theft becoming actually
>actionable:  as _viz_ THE SWORD OF SHA-NA-NA, from which a charcter-to-character
>and damn near incident-to-incident correspondence can be drawn two its original,
>THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

Besides the undeniable parallel, he added quite a bit of new stuff as well.
For one thing, The Sword of Shannara was his first book -- if you saw most
author's first books (most don't get published) you'd lose a lot of respect
for them as well.

Secondly, you stated you hadn't read any of the sequels or his other books.
You said you neither knew nor care whether they were original or not or even
good or not.  Well, they ARE good, and they are *incredibly* original.
If you found one bad egg in a carton, you wouldn't throw away the whole
carton, would you?

The point is, I think you are overreacting a little.  And besides -- just
how alike were Gandalf and Allanon, anyway??  And Boromir is the *worst*
parallel for Balinor I've ever heard.

But laying parallels (which I really don't deny) aside, he's one of the best
writers out there.

A judgment which you are *not* informed enough to make.  Obviously.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                              The Rink                              |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
   it is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                          Ephesians  2:8-9                          |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Fourth Giants book out
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:22:42 EST
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <q9tnk4a.dani@netcom.com>, dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> "Entoverse" is by far the worst of the four 'Giants' novels.  Hogan
> has developed a model of how life and intelligence could evolve within
> a computer (not to be confused with the computer itself developing life
> or intelligence!) and the centerpiece of the book is the long, dull, and
> not-very-convincing exposition of this model.  The rest of the book is
> either the setup for this exposition or the wrapping up of loose ends.

	I take it the is Hogan's entry in the virtual worlds genre?

Brett                                                      
_______________________________________________________________________________
Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
Better, Cheaper, Faster					       (Pick any two :)
Disclaimer:								   NOT!
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:11791 rec.arts.sf.science:2828 sci.bio:3102
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: RIP Fritz Leiber
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 15:22:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.042428.18330@galileo.physics.arizona.edu>, lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat) writes:
 > 
 >    Fritz Leiber
 > Requiescat in pace
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > --
 > 
 > LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "One like a wombat prowled obtuse
 > The insane don't need disclaimers \  and furry"  --Christina Rossetti

Sigh.  Since I started reading News a couple of weeks ago, Bad News have come my
way twice.  First I hear that the Good Doctor, Isaac Asimov, is no more.  Now,
Fritz Leiber?  Well, of course, that's the way the world works, but....:-(

Rest in peace, both of you.  Your creations will outlive us all.

Leif, who has no .sig, no opinions, no employer.
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Good writing (was Re: Piers Anthony)
Summary: So long - and thanks for all the fish.
Date: 15 Sep 92 23:47:36 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep15.201416.27868@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:
|I wrote:
|
|>>How about:  "Good writing (in fiction) is writing which communicates 
|>>effectively, entertains, and does not insult the reader's intelligence."
|
|And returning challenger Curtis Yarvin responded:
|
|>Well, before we stumble into a standard, perhaps we should excavate
|>at a lower level.  What do we want in a definition?
|
|Clarity?

Precisamente.  But see below.

|>If we see those clouds of bombast and innuendo lurking on the
|>horizon and pray for rain, then, by all means, that definition is a
|>fine one.  It'll make for wonderfully silly debates - the best kind.
|>
|>On the other hand, if we're looking to settle this hash quick and
|>get the corpse in the grave before it starts to stink - if, in
|>other words, we're looking for a _useful_ definition - your breed of
|>beast need not apply.  It hath fish to fry; and different fish do
|>not always fry alike.
|
|What fish, pray, do you suspect me of frying?

You're right; I should be clearer.  This definition of yours is a
subspecies of my Type #1 - that is, it actually tries to classify
books on their literary merit.  In addition, it's quite noticeably
biased in favor of "intelligent" fiction.  Thus the fish.

Forgetting icthyology for a moment, let me repeat and clarify my
objections to Type #1 definitions.  As you point out, what we're
looking for is clarity.  Clarity, in a definition, means that two
reasonable people will always evaluate said definition in the same
way; that is, it should be objectively applicable.

Now, do you really think your definition is objectively applicable?

c
From: mcjunkin@hpspkla.spk.hp.com (Bart L. McJunkin)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:37:42 GMT
Subject: The Doomsday Book
Organization: Hewlett Packard Company, Spokane, Wa.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written

###########################################################################

I just finished _The Doomsday Book_ by Connie Willis.  It
was the best novel I have read this year.  This book has got
to be a front runner for an award.

I hadn't read anything by the author until Brad had made the
Hugo nominee short stories available.  But, after reading
"In the Late Cretaceous", I had to pick up two of her
novels:  Doomsday and _Lincoln's Dreams_.  I haven't read
_Lincoln's Dreams_, but it has moved to the top of my list.

I'm not normally a short story reader, but, if she has
published any collections, I would definitely purchase a
copy.  I understand that she has published several shorts
stories that were well received.

Get this book.  Put the author on your must buy list.

Bart.

###########################################################################
mcjunkin@hpspkla.spk.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: Gold
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 19:15:40 GMT

In article <88337@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
|> In article <2X8PBR5J@cc.swarthmore.edu>, jhildeb1@cc (Jeff Hildebrand) writes:
|> >Better believe it. Ever since the nominations came out people were
|> >saying that this would happen. This is actually the only winner I
|> >haven't read, but virtually every comment I've seen was "It was ok,
|> >but not Asimov's best." Sounds like a tribute win to me.
|> 
|> Actually, "Gold" was a surprisingly good story.  It was a tribute win,
|> though, since it's level of goodness was one the fen have rarely shown
                                                    ^^^


Okay.  It's happened twice today.  First it was "Fithp," and now it's
"fen."   I overlooked Fithp, figuring that sooner or later someone would
inadvertantly [ :-) ] define it for me.  But now there's fen.  (fans?)


What's a fen?

What's a Fithp?  Is that what you do when you have a hair in your mouth?



Mike
From: seawasp@vms.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dreamer Fithp
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:13:17 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@pmax1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <8b9yvd+@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.003859.24015@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep7.202236.29238@u.washington.edu>, daynem@byron (Dayne Miller) writes:
>|> >Niven and Pournelle, in FOOTFALL, mention a Threat Team (the "Dreamer Fithp")
>|> >that's composed of several writers of SF that advise the federal gov't. in 
>|> >times of unusual crisis.

	Not "in times of unusual crisis"; the Dreamer Fithp was created
specifically to advise and think on the problems presented by  a specific
problem -- i.e., alien assault. It wasn't some kind of general advisement
group, but one designed for that specific ocurrence.

>|> IMHO, this was one of the lamest parts of FOOTFALL, because it's basically
>|> self-indulgant aggrandizement to suppose that the only ones that can deal
>|> with the alien-invaders scenario are SF writers.

> I agree with this. I'm a long-time fan of Niven's, but this was the one 
>part of _Footfall_ that made me do a double-take and say "Whaaat!?"

	Come on, people. First of all, it was meant as an in joke, and it
was a pretty good one, too. Heinlein did it himself in the finale of
his "Expanded Universe" collection; the old advisor to the president
who talked about dealing with nuclear waste was supposed to be Bob H 
himself. It's a perfectly acceptable procedure, and indicates that the
authors have a sense of humor.

	Second, the Dreamer Fithp was in no way represented as a be-all
and end-all of our Earthly defense. They were gathered together 
as a group intended to examine the problems from a DIFFERENT ANGLE
than the ordinary threat teams would. In the case of extraterrestrial
invasion, I have to say that it might not be a bad idea at all to 
have such a group in an advisory capacity. A standard military
threat team might simply  be UNABLE to see certain indications or
solutions that imaginative writers might perceive.

				
					Sea Wasp
					  /^\
					  ;;;

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: Lovecraft question
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 21:30:32 GMT

HISC9016351D@LUST2.LATROBE.EDU.AU (MAMMONE,Robert) writes:

>In <16858C8C2.ADELEKTA@kentvm.kent.edu> adelekta@kentvm.kent.edu writes:

>>  
>>  While noticing the influence of H.P. Lovecraft in modern science fiction,
>> someone pointed out to me that Lovecraft was in turn influenced by an early
>> 20th century writer, whom I believe wrote a book called something like The
>> King in Yellow, and who was responsible for many places/concepts generally
>> attributed to Lovecraft.
>>
> The King in Yellow was written around the turn of the century, if memory
>serves me well.  There are four stories revolving around a legendary
>book, the King in Yellow, a bit like Lovecraft's Necronomicon.  Anyway,
>the people who come to possess, or read it, all tend to die.  In some 
>editions of Chamber's book, like mine, there are a further set of stories
>which are actually romance short stories.(Why there included, I'm not sure)

Interesting!  I have the 1895 "King in Yellow" and was unaware it had ever
been reprinted, or even much heard of.  It's really not a novel, simply
a collection of stories; a few are linked by the above-mentioned book "The
King in Yellow," which is supposed to be a _play_, but so "decadent" that
it leads its readers into a "world of horror."  Very 'Nineties.  Many of
the other stories revolve around Americans in France, set in the past (one
story involves a man who stumbles back into medieval Brittany), the present
or the future (the last long story describes a crumbling love set among the
equally crumbling streets of Paris on the eve of invasion).  Most of Chambers'
books (and he wrote many) are cliche'd romances which quickly grow stale.

The mythical book "The King in Yellow" is really nothing like the
"Necronomicon".  Lovecraft's book is a _grimoire_, a book of black magic
and secrets -- not an uncommon staple of Gothic horror!  Only well after
"The Call of Cthulhu" did he start to turn it into a description of the
"elder beings" who once lived on the Earth.  Chambers' "King in Yellow,"
as mentioned above, is a play, set in an imaginary kingdom, but -- at least
in the excerpts we're given -- not a repository of arcane secrets.

The idea of Evil as a palapable force, of a book or picture or story as
so "decadent" and "foul" that it actually manifests a cosmic negativity,
was a popular theme in the "Yellow Book" literature of the time that seemed
to vanish as quickly as it arrived ... probably with the arrest of Oscar
Wilde.  But you see the "King in Yellow" idea in Aubrey Beardsley's drawings,
in many of Arthur Machen's short stories, and even in some of Wilde's work.
It tends to weaken the stories from a modern point of view -- we no longer
believe in EVIL (usually manifested, if at all, as hints of sexual perversity)
as a motivating force in the world; the scientific mind needs a new source
for fear.  That's what Lovecraft did.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.edu
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Good writing (was Re: Piers Anthony)
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:14:16 GMT
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

I wrote:

>>How about:  "Good writing (in fiction) is writing which communicates 
>>effectively, entertains, and does not insult the reader's intelligence."

And returning challenger Curtis Yarvin responded:

>Well, before we stumble into a standard, perhaps we should excavate
>at a lower level.  What do we want in a definition?

Clarity?


>If we see those clouds of bombast and innuendo lurking on the
>horizon and pray for rain, then, by all means, that definition is a
>fine one.  It'll make for wonderfully silly debates - the best kind.
>
>On the other hand, if we're looking to settle this hash quick and
>get the corpse in the grave before it starts to stink - if, in
>other words, we're looking for a _useful_ definition - your breed of
>beast need not apply.  It hath fish to fry; and different fish do
>not always fry alike.

Oh, golly, your "detect food" spell caught me.

What fish, pray, do you suspect me of frying?  And what -- if anything
-- has this to do with my proposed definition?

Either strike it down on sound theoretical grounds, or give a solid
counter-example:  an acknowledged piece of "good writing" that fails
to meet those three criteria.

Otherwise admit defeat.


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: wimcdaid@nmsu.edu (Liam McDaid)
Subject: Ya can't keep 'em down!
Originator: wimcdaid@dante
Keywords: Heinlein, Conspiracies, JFK, Armenians, Atlantis
Reply-To: wimcdaid@nmsu.edu (Liam)
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:01:29 GMT

	

	I would like to know what the opinions are on 
Heinlein's (oh, Jesus, not again!) short stories.  To preempt the
Heinlein (is God/is scum) flamefest, I'd like to attempt to lay 
down some ground rules:

	I'm only interested in his stuff BEFORE Stranger.  Now I
don't know if he wrote any shorts after Stranger, but I want to
be clear.

	Any members of the First Glorious Church of Heinlein need
not reply.

	An emphasis on his "Future History" stuff would be
appreciated.


					Thanks (he says as he ducks),

						Liam
From: rhamilt@husc8.harvard.edu (Rowan Hamilton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Iain Banks...
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:20:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc8.rhamilt.716401220


	I remember hearing discussion of a new Iain Banks Culture book
called (I think) "State of the Art". Any word on when it will be available
in the US?
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rowan T. Hamilton                      |   "To dig this is to groove on
hamilton@huhepl.harvard.edu            |       hella shit."
hamilton@fnald.fnal.gov                |   - Some random skate-punk.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rowan T. Hamilton                      |   "To dig this is to groove on
hamilton@huhepl.harvard.edu            |       hella shit."
hamilton@fnald.fnal.gov                |   - Some random skate-punk.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: clc@bofur.unh.edu (Christian L Claiborn)
Subject: Re: morbid thoughts (was Re: RIP Fritz Leiber)
Organization: University of New Hampshire  -  Durham, NH
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 05:20:03 GMT

In article <BuC8n6.JuL@math.uwaterloo.ca> gamiddle@math.uwaterloo.ca (Guy Middleton) writes:
>In article <Bu8342.5K3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison) writes:
>> Now Asimov, Heinlein and Leiber are gone.  Who will be next of
>> the old greats to go?  Clarke?
>
>I'm going to be *really* upset when it's Jack Vance's turn.

Or, <gulp> Harlan Ellison's.
Picked up 'The Essential Ellison' the other day.  Jesus, that man can write.

					clc

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Christian Longshore Claiborn | clc@kepler.unh.edu | Friend of the Great     |
| Chuck Woolery's Protege      | clc@gloin.unh.edu  | Eater of Souls          |
| Future UNH Sysadmin          | clc@bifur.unh.edu  | Ask about group rates!  |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"It was all very well to say 'Drink Me,' but the wise little Alice wasn't    |
| going to do THAT in a hurry."  -- The Reverend Charles Dodgson              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Fritz.Niespodziany@p4.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org (Fritz Niespodziany)
Sender: postmaster@p2.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:56:21 GMT
Reply-To: djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <1992Sep14.215034.17448@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> aaron@space.ualberta.ca writes:

>Dan'l concedes that many people don't want a book that makes them think, but
>merely a "good read".  He then claims that Anthony is not a "good read".  Well,
>then, why do people keep buying and reading Anthony?  >Why< does he keep
>selling books?  I can't imagine that however many millions of people look at
>Anthony books on the rack and say, "His last one was shit, but I'm going to buy
>this one anyway."  So somebody must consider them a "good read" despite the
>flaws you mention(which I partially agree with).


Why?

Why did the American people re-elect Reagan -- and *then* elect Shrub?

Simply:  most people are deep-down _ignorant_.  That isn't smug, or
superior, or condescending:  there are plenty of things I'm ignorant about,
too.  And ignorance in literature is nowhere near as disastrous as ignorance
in politics invariably turns out to be.  (Hint: the people elected themselves
bread and circuses until the Republic crumbled.  In the 20th century, it was
free cheese and "stunning" military victories over the underfed, unmotivated
soldiers of third-world countries.)

Ignorance isn't a crime, and it's curable.  What _is_ a crime is saying that
ignorance is as good as knowledge, which is (essentially) what "he sells well
so he must be good" amounts to.


		The Pavlov dog and the Schroedinger cat
		Side by side in my forebrain sat
		With Shakespeare's monkeys crowding in behind. . .
		. . . it's all in your mind.
			-- Visual Purple

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, Net.Roach
My opinions do NOT represent Pacific Bell,
Professional Development, or anyone else.
But I'm willing to share.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:12108 rec.arts.sf.science:2894 sci.bio:3217
From: smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Are the Moties us?
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:39:19 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Sep11.060130.20003@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, ins894r@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley [Wigs]) writes:

>The Wigs of Oz

Hmmmmmmmmm.  Is that L. Frank Baum, or Ruth Plumly Thompson?

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
How about we all do something reasonable?  I bet that'll confuse 'em!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rlw@IDA.ORG (Richard Wexelblat)
Subject: Re: Iain Banks...
Organization: IDA, Alexandria, VA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 12:59:20 GMT

rhamilt@husc8.harvard.edu (Rowan Hamilton) writes:
: 
: 	I remember hearing discussion of a new Iain Banks Culture book
: called (I think) "State of the Art". Any word on when it will be available

I'm giving up on Banks.  His novels seem to me gratuitously depressing.
-- 
--Dick Wexelblat  (rlw@ida.org) 703 845 6601
  This message is not copyright.  Please feel free to use it
  in any context, at any time, with or without attribution.
  Quotes out of context and parodies are encouraged.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: looking for a book by C.J. Cherryh(?)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 07:58:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

fscem1@acad3.alaska.edu:
>The main character - or one of them - was this terribly warped wizard-type 
>who had, in exchange for eternal life and ultimate power (or things along 
>those lines), killed his beloved family in a gory arcane mess.  He's become 
>a legend and lives in the middle of a Deep Dark Forest...

"Black Sun Rising", by CS Friedman.