From: enigma@halcyon.com (Matt Luders)
Subject: Re: Could you guys give a girl some advice...
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:15:24 GMT

Greg Orman (Tigger) writes:

>There are times when I have been very hesitant to ask out a woman who is a
>friend.  Not just because I am shy in that situation (which is part of it),
>but also in large part because I don't want to destroy the friendship.  It
>never has in hindsight, but at the time it sure worried me.  If I had known
>that she thought of me as maybe more than a friend, even at some time in
>the past, the situation would have been easier to deal with.

Completely understandable.  If you're not sure whether she thinks you have
the potential to become more than just a friend, then you're taking a risk
by asking her out, because you're revealing you have feelings toward her that
go beyond friendship.  If she doesn't feel the same, then it could hurt your
friendship because she will no longer think of you in quite the same way.

That's why I think the best approach is to get to know the other person as
much as possible in a casual, non-romantic setting.  The idea is to see if
there is enough mutual interest *before* the question is even asked.  If
there is, it will become apparent (provided you're not completely dense)
and the actual asking out becomes more of a formality rather than a
do-or-die event.


>>Does she smile when she sees you?  Does she compliment you?  Does she
>>laugh when she's with you?  Does she flirt with you?  Does she refrain
>>from mentioning a boyfriend? 
>
>Absolutely none of those things are a clear positive, although some of them
>are fairly clear negatives.

True, but taken together, they send a pretty strong message that she likes
your company, is attracted to you, and wouldn't mind going out with you.
It's kind of hard to put into words, really.  There's a certain look in
the eye, a certain tone of voice...it's hard to explain.


>Yes, there are ways to send a message without coming right out and saying
>it, but being as subtle as these examples is not necessarily going to do
>the trick.

Those were the only examples I could think of at the moment.  You're right
that there are other ways as well.  However, if a woman did all of the things
I mentioned, I'd be willing to bet that she'd say "yes" if you asked her out.
Whether she agrees to a second date depends on what happens on the first.

But we're drifting into a separate topic here.  At the moment, *she's*
the one who wants to go out, he apparently does not.  According to her first
post, she already knows this, so there's really no need for her to guess.


>> Any change she makes should be one that she wants to make *anyway*,
>>regardless of anyone else's opinion.
>
>Isn't this just a little strong?
....
>There is a gray area in between of things that you probably wouldn't bother
>to change for yourself, but that you wouldn't mind changing for someone else.

(laundry basket example deleted)

Yes, it was a little strong, partly to keep the point clear, and partly to
reassure Crystal that I wasn't recommending "Sassy" abdicate her identity
just to please some guy.

You raise a good point, and I agree with you.  It all depends on the kind
and degree of the change you're contemplating.  Minor changes in behavior to
better accommodate living under the same roof with someone are probably okay
(the example of leaving the toilet seat down comes to mind).  Major changes
to your looks or personality are not okay (and are usually impossible to
make anyway). 


>A man's best friends:  a Harley, a Beretta and a Gund.

Actually, I'd take a Kawasaki over a Harley and a Glock over a Beretta.
But Gund really does make the best teddy bears. :-)   Actually, I think
a (heterosexual) man's best friend is the right woman.


Matt

Newsgroups: alt.personals