Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:01:19 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: homosexuality
X-To:         christia%asuacad.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

Subject: Re: homosexuality


MAKS> I'm hoping nothing I've commented on sounds like a flame, it was
      not my intention to do so.

Carol A Long ----------------------------------------------------------->
31 AUG 92  U1A9A@EDU.VT.CC.VTVM2
> The bottom line is : you cannot continue with your boyfriend..... God
> hates homosexual sin............

flame mode on
I have heard a lot of this out right condemnation on this list.
I grow tired of ivory towers and those who cast stones from the top of them.
flame mode off
^ - By the way, this comes out like a "Y" on my machine with a little
accent over it. Not sure what it was supposed to be. Interesting, now that
I've pulled it into PROFS, it's an broken up and down line, "".

God hates sin ... agreed regardless of sexual orientation.
The rest of the comment appears as a tirade of prejudice.
Perhaps those who condemn so strongly should walk the way of
those they condemn - the way of being subjected to such tirades
for being as you believe God has made you.

MAKS> I feel I need to speak up here. I have never known a member to be
      more loving, or showing the love of Christ more than Bernice. When
      she mentioned that God did not love the sin of homosexuality, she
      also listed about 3-5 of her own.

      If she was throwing a stone "your" way, she threw about 3-5 back
      at herself and yet we "flame" and throw a couple more back at her.

      Wasn't it Kerry that said to the effect "One side says God has
      said things are wrong and the other says nothing is wrong?" This
      is not really about homosexuality, but more on "If something is
      wrong, is it really wrong? If God says "NO", does He really mean
      sometimes?"

      The posts from Francis Schaefer have talked about this. What comes
      to mind here is a couple of things, some of which have already
      been posted, some more to come.

         One thing mentioned was that there is no difference between
         the liberal Christian and the humanist, that the liberal
         Christian is merely a humanist using Christian terms instead
         of secular. How many actually took the time to say, "Is this
         what I'm really doing instead of "BULLS***".

         Another thing brought up, I think still not posted was that
         when God lays aside some "Thou shalt NOT", then these get
         "set to the side" as "DON'Ts", and EVERYTHING ELSE is
         spiritual. I really loved this part. ALL OF LIFE IS SPIRITUAL,
         NOT JUST WHAT IS MENTIONED. Thou shall not lie with a man as
         with a woman is not a spiritual concept, but something to
         stay away from so that the rest of your life can be spiritual.

      Okay, I've thrown a stone. Now one back at me. I get angry, and
      sometimes quite when someone speeds to pass me and I have to
      hit the brakes to avoid hitting them as they get around me and
      then make me stop so they can do a left hand turn. This really
      galls me. This is wrong.

      Now we have some out there who may be homosexual, we have some
      who get angry. BOTH ARE JUST AS WRONG, TRUE. However, I keep
      praying and turning my life over to God and asking him to
      change me. Does the Homosexual, or does s/he simply say I was
      born this way? Does this mean I can say "Hey, I was born angry
      and continue to get mad, cuss, and grumble about other drivers?"
      No, I don't think so.


>Let Jesus help you to know the way.....

I know may people who are close to God and gay.  I know may who
conform to the given view who show no signs of the Spirit in their
life.

Being gay **does not** equate to not knowing God.

MAKS> I believe God is merciful. I have heard stories of city kids
      the Lord and then finding a "cheat sheet" for the next test and
      saying "Praise the Lord, He is so good to me!" Is this student
      in danger of hell fire? I really doubt it. But sometime down
      the road the student will learn that cheat sheets are wrong and
      when he finds one, may turn it over to the teacher or destroy it.

      Many gays may find themselves in the same boat. Given time, God
      will change them. Given time, God will change my anger, and He
      is working on it. I've had a good many arguments with him. "But,
      God, you saw what He did...." "Michael..." "God, you saw, he should
      have known better." "Michael..." "What?!?!?" "Didn't I die for
      you?" "Don't be silly, of course you did?" "Didn't I die for
      this driver who up set you?" "..... Well.... Yea.... You did."
      "If I loved you and died for you and died for him, can't you too
      love the person I died for?" "...mumble...mumble... Yes... I'm
      sorry. Please help me to change. I love You and I'm sorry I got
      angry..." and so it goes... Be ye beING saved, a constant process.


> ..repent ....

Repent for being the way you feel God made you and God intended
for you to be is a strange thing to be asked to do.

MAKS> "intended you to be" is a bit presumptuous. How do you know?
      You've just said how can we know what God says, you you seem
      positive that God made you this way. The Bible calls it sin.

      Bernice, in this example, was hooked on booze and cigarettes.
      God changed her, but she may well have been born with the
      desire for both. I've seem many smokers who simply "couldn't"
      quit. The Bible is full of messages to repent.

Please can we get away from the dogma and condemnations (especially
those in the name of love) and, CASTING NO STONES, discuss this subject
that is obviously so important to some of us.

MAKS> This reminds me of what one of my CARIS tapes said.

      "If you simply share the love of Jesus, and talk about peace, and
      love, and things like that, people will say 'What a wonderful
      person, so loving, so caring, so much like Jesus.' but if you
      start talking about 'Why do you call Me Lord and not do the
      things I say...'   ....Suddenly you are a narrow minded bigot."

      The "discussion" as it were is to accept the perverting of
      scripture and "study" it in ways not consistent with context
      and the like. We love you all, even though we feel "you" may
      be in sin. We also are in sin, but we are trying to change.

The older "Rock Music" postings also address this a bit. It's the second
paragraph that points out the changes.

    More and more, however, veiled illusions have given way to an
explicitness that is almost unbelievable. (Motley Crue, "Girls, Girls,
Girls") Decency prevents from playing some of the worst examples. As a
sample, however, consider one of several songs of this best selling album
(Van Halen, "OU812") by Van Halen. (Boy I hate to print this, but like the
others, hiding from it don't make it go away...) "Slip and slide, push it
in. Bitch sure got the rhythm. I'm holding back, Yeah, I got control.
Hooked into her system..." ("Black and Blue").
    Satanic sex is never content with what we might call every day
perversion. (Bojangles, "In Your Room") Things like masturbation and sexual
activity between two unmarried people with some form of relationship. These
are excellent first steps, gradually getting the participant used to being
degraded and enslaved to lust. Once they're introduced to the fleeting
pleasures of sin, an important law kicks in. "The deceptiveness of sin
hardens our hearts." (Heb 3:13, paraphrase).


    As our hearts become hard, 3 things begin to happen, both individually
and collectively. 1)We begin to justify our sin. 2)We become more blind and
resistant to God's truth and salvation concerning our sin. 3)We become more
susceptible to the next stage of sin. This is perhaps, Satan's most useful
ploy, not only for the power it gives him over the individual lives, and
the toll it takes on society, (album, Blast, "Take the Manic Ride", a
cartoon, but good looking woman devil is giving the "come here" with her
finger. The back of the album shows she has a knife behind her back) but
for the demonic poignancy of it. How satisfying it must be for him to see
the pinnacle of creation(Billy Idol, Michael Jackson, Prince, David Lee
Roth, shown doing "things" on stage), people made in the image of God,
performing acts not worthy of animals. ("Satanism condones any type of
sexual activity. The prevalence of deviant behavior in our society would
stagger the imagination of the sexually naive.", The Satanic Bible, P67,
"Satanic Sex")

MAKS> The main point here is that we should always stop and pause if
      some new way of thinking, some new way of looking at the scriptures
      is suddenly just what we need to justify our sin. For instance, if
      I could find a "good" story about being angry to say what I am
      doing is not all that bad, I think I may well find myself in
      danger of not wanting to repent. If God says anger is a sin,
      then I need to consider it such.

      I pray this was not considered flaming, that was not my intention.
      My intention is to say God is right, no matter what. Even if I
      think I was born to be angry, it doesn't make it any more right
      when I blow my top.

Maks
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