HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: curtis@berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,alt.activism,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:22:02 GMT
Followup-To: ba.politics,alt.activism,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.

In article <yvjndkn.adamsr@netcom.com> adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams) writes:
>
>	I have no doubt that you would have shot that woman without
>hesitation, exactly as Chew did.  I also have no doubt that a more rational,
>less violent solution may have resulted in the woman receiving therapy
>instead of a funeral.

Christ, this thread.  Such a lot of babbling I've never seen.  Look:

1) There _are_ situations in which you're being attacked with a machete
   and have no option but to shoot.

2) There _are_ situations in which you're being attacked with a machete
   and can disarm the attacker without risking your own life.

3) We have _no way of knowing_ which sort of situation it was.  The
   only people who know are the police, and they say it's the former;
   but they'd say that anyway.

So clamp it, folks.  You don't know what you're talking about,
and you probably never will.  If you have to cling to your half-
baked opinions, keep your mouths shut and leave your foolishness
a matter of ambiguity.

And take it out of talk.bizarre.

End of flame.

c
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5008 ca.politics:7400
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:43:57 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <181j5qINNb4@agate.berkeley.edu>, joan@koala.berkeley.edu writes:
> In article <12079@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> [most of post deleted]
> 
> ]>As long as liberals consider what happened to Denovo "cold-blooded
> ]>murder" as they screeched in the streets of Berkeley, I will continue
> ]>to defend it.  I refuse to make a cop put himself in risk of death
> ]>or permanent disablement just so that liberals can make political
> ]>statements with machetes in someone else's home.
> 
> 	She called herself an anarchist, as do many of the people
> who periodically break windows, set fires, etc. in Berkeley.
> 
> Joan V

Odd. Everytime I meet a person on the Left who calls him or
herself an "anarchist," I find after some questions, that they
are nothing of the sort.  They want the freedom to steal and
destroy the property of others, but they don't want the victim
to have the freedom to fight back.

You find a similar thing on the Right.  You meet libertarians
who call themselves "anarchists," but in my experience, it's
rare to find one that means it.  Most of the "anarchists" want
the government to stop taxing them (for welfare), but don't want the 
government to stop providing police and courts.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Xref: sparky ba.politics:4873 alt.activism:15637 ca.politics:7213 talk.politics.misc:42698 talk.bizarre:27904
From: adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,alt.activism,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:44:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

Thus spake jimh@pacdata.uucp (Jim Harkins): 

>Nice to know you've got an open mind on this.  If I'm holding a gun on somebody
>and they come at me I'll shoot.  Probably 15 times before stopping for 1.2
>seconds to reload.  I don't care if they're armed or not.  If they're crazy
>enough to attack then god knows what they'll do if they get my gun away.
>And if you think I'll take the chance of losing the gun to a 100 pound 
>lunatic then your elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor.
>
	What a perfect demonstration of a need for gun control!

	Anyone who would shoot down an unarmed 100 lb mentally ill woman
(which you just said you would do) needs therapy, not firearms!

	It's people who think like that (most of whom wear badges) who
justify the abject fear of the police that many inner city residents share.

>I suppose if the cop used mace and got his hand chopped off you'd bitch about
>paying him disability for life.  He's only a pig who was poorly trained, after
>all.  Some peoples kids.
>
	The woman who was shot was people's "kid," too. And there's not need
to worry about paying HER disability. A cop who had already been charged
with excessive use of force repeatedly in the past solved her emotional
problems for her permanently.

	Anyone who is incapable of facing a situation such as that one and
dealing with it with MINIMUM force has no business being in uniform. He, and
any other officer who thinks that way, gives real meaning to the word PIG!

>Lawyers Creed:  What's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable.

 Cops Creed: What's mine is mine and what's yours is subject to seizure.


-- 
    rick.adams on GEnie   /|\        You are right from your side,        
     adamsr@netcom.com  /  |  \        And I am right from mine.          
    adamsr@irie.ais.org \ /|\ /  We're both just one too many mornings,   
   adamsr@norwich.bitnet  \|/  And a thousand miles behind. (c Bob Dylan) 
Xref: sparky ba.politics:4937 ca.politics:7306 talk.politics.misc:43072
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:21:04 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <m9dnzfm.adamsr@netcom.com>, adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams) writes:
> Thus spake jimh@pacdata.uucp (Jim Harkins): 
# #Nice to know you've got an open mind on this.  If I'm holding a gun on somebody
# #and they come at me I'll shoot.  Probably 15 times before stopping for 1.2
# #seconds to reload.  I don't care if they're armed or not.  If they're crazy
# #enough to attack then god knows what they'll do if they get my gun away.
# #And if you think I'll take the chance of losing the gun to a 100 pound 
# #lunatic then your elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor.
# #
# 	What a perfect demonstration of a need for gun control!
# 
# 	Anyone who would shoot down an unarmed 100 lb mentally ill woman
# (which you just said you would do) needs therapy, not firearms!

She wasn't unarmed.  Do you have any idea the damage that a machete
can do?  Liberals -- just completely out of touch with reality.

# 	It's people who think like that (most of whom wear badges) who
# justify the abject fear of the police that many inner city residents share.

So that's why we need gun control -- so that the cops have even
MORE power.  Liberals -- just completely out touch with reality.

#     rick.adams on GEnie   /|\        You are right from your side,        
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:27:47 GMT

In article <pabhlmg@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
> 
> Okay, I guess I am not making my point well...
> 
> The problem I have with this situation is not with the details
> of this particular case, but with the police procedure which
> allowed this situation to develop.  It highlights several 
> problems:
> 
> 1.  The police are not properly trained in the use of force, either
> lethal or non-lethal.  

Probably true.  Are you willing to see your local taxes rise enough to
provide the training?

> 1A. The police do not have a problem with using lethal force in an
> unnecessary situation.  They have killed a woman in a situation
> where she did not have to die.  People then defend the police operating
> in this fashion.  

This is a questionable conjecture.  Could the whole thing have been
handled in such a way that she wasn't killed?  Probably.  There are
probalby solutions that aren't even the result of 20-20 hindsight.
What I've been defending is that--in the end part of the situation the
cop in question had very few options.  He chose the one that appears
to be the most sure way of keeping *him* alive.  I won't fault *that*
decision.  You seem willing to second guess that critical decision.

> 2.  The police staffing does not allow for proper numbers of police
> in areas where it is necessary.  This is a tougher issue than the
> first one, since I suspect that it is more of a budgetary constraint
> than any other.

Funny thing about that . . .  The question is again--are *you* willing
to pay for the additional police?  (And are you willing to convince
your neighbors to pay, too?)

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Xref: sparky ba.politics:4764 alt.activism:15401 talk.politics.misc:41814
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: How to Profit from Death
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:22:51 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Aug25.160818.2875@island.COM>, guido@island.COM (Guido Marx) writes:
> In article <l9irejINNi2@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@bari.Eng.Sun.COM (Brian Gordon) writes:
# #Just curious, but _what_ do you want done?  This virus is much more difficult
# #to chase than, say, the common cold that we have been trying to "cure" or
# #prevent since at least the turn of the century.  We already spend
# #_significantly_ more on this than on diseases that affect _many_ more people,
# #etc.
# #
# #Besides waving a magic wand, just what would you like who to do?
# 
# Well, just for starters I would like to see clean needle exchanges
# allowed.  This can be funded by private groups, all they need is for
# the government to get the hell out of the way.  This is also something
# which is specifically opposed in the Republican platform.  Right now,
# this is probably one of the easiest things we can do to slow down the
# spread of AIDS, and the Republicans oppose it.  Apparently, they feel
# that drug users deserve to die (and their lovers too).

I completely agree with you about the importance of clean needle
exchange.  (Hell, let's just make it laissez-faire -- no need for
exchange).  But I think you are making a serious mistake when you
assume that opposition to it is that "drug users deserve to die..."
The problem is that there is a perception that allowing needle
exchange will be seen as the government approving of drug use.

I don't agree, but it's at least an understandable reaction.
After all, the homosexual community seems to think that if they
don't accept NAMBLA in their parades, then they are censoring
them.  "That which is not prohibited, is required."

# Guido


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
Xref: sparky ba.politics:4877 alt.activism:15640 ca.politics:7216 talk.politics.misc:42707
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,alt.activism,ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 29 Aug 92 01:40:32 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.

In article <1992Aug28.213336.10404@oracle.us.oracle.com> rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:
    >When I heard this, I had to wonder if it was a setup, some
    >poor, confused young child wound up and pointed straight into
    >a setup situation, created precisely to escalate the war on
    >the Left, which has its HQ in Berkeley, California, in the
    >minds of many. Her death was perhaps necessary in order to
    >keep her from babbling the exact details of how she ended up
    >there.

Poor ole' confused chil' ... wonder how, with all that confusion, she
acquired that nice little arsenal she had (that was what her upcoming
court case was about). I have the video tape segment from the police
dog and pony show ... I don't think she reloaded, and I saw a 10 KG
can of Hercules Bullseye!!!

(Hercules Bullseye is a type of smokeless powder used for ammunition
reloading. I use it myself. It is about the fastest burning smokeless
powder around, and is often used for loading military frgamentation
hand grenades. It is also used to reload ammuntion, especially .38 Special.

Since .38 Special reloads use around 3.2 grains of Bullseye, and there are
7000 * 2.2 * 10 grains in what she had, that poor ole chile' was either
about reload ~50,000 round of ammuntion, OR was about to make pipe bombs.)




-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Xref: sparky ba.politics:5053 ca.politics:7464
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:44:21 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <p94l0k8@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>This argument is frustrating to me, because people seem perfectly willing
>to defend the use of deadly force by the police.  Tell me, what would
>the police have done in England, where the cops do not use guns?  They
>would have subdued the woman. 
>
>As long as people keep defending the use of deadly force by the police,
>the longer they will keep using it.

Sorry Jeff, I don't agree with you here.

I think that the police should be prevented from doing some things that
do now.  I'm completely opposed to no-knock warrants, for instance, unless
a hostage is currently being held and I'm completely against the use of
lethal force by cops on a fleeing unarmed (non-violent crime) suspect.
However, I don't think anyone should ever have moderate the force they
use in defending themselves from an armed assailant.

   don
From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:40:36 GMT
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.

In article <394@vega.iii.com> rhockins@enrico.tmc.edu (Russell Hockins) writes:
    >In article <12052@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP
    >(Clayton Cramer) writes:
    >>In article <1992Aug30.051305.1235@adobe.com>, pngai@adobe.com
    >>(Phil Ngai) writes:
    >>>In article <11973@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP
    >>>(Clayton Cramer) writes:
    >>>
    >>PR24. It's plastic, not metal.
    >>
    >It's Kevlar, not plastic.

Kevlar IS plastic -- it's essentially a mutated bylon.


-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
From: martyg@ocf.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Ask not what your country can do for you ...
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:49:17 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu

Concerning "'Family Values' taking precedence over individuality.":

  A persons individuality is best protected under the ancient institution
  of the family.
From: wje00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Warren Jay Eggly)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Over & OUT
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:17:08 GMT
Return-Path: <@juts.ccc.amdahl.com:wje00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>


In article <1992Sep3.145416.16553@pcnntp.apple.com> (Craig Webb) writes:

>QW, a weekly New York-based magazine, has "outed" high-profile Republicans

What is the phone number of QW in New York. I called information and they
didn't have a number.

eggs

Xref: sparky ba.politics:4900 ca.politics:7261
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:02:39 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <5vhnyzg.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <t7fnqb+.adamsr@netcom.com> adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams) writes:
>    >I repeat - ANYONE who would shoot down an UNARMED 100 lb
>    >mentally ill woman needs therapy, not firearms!
>
>Nice, easy, archair statement. Made by somebody who has never ever seen a
>violent ward in an insane asylum.

Easy for you to say... My lover works at SF general in psychiatric
emergency (where they get their fair share of psychotic people).  They
have yet to have to kill someone to subdue them.


This argument is frustrating to me, because people seem perfectly willing
to defend the use of deadly force by the police.  Tell me, what would
the police have done in England, where the cops do not use guns?  They
would have subdued the woman. 

As long as people keep defending the use of deadly force by the police,
the longer they will keep using it.


FWA
From: chased@rbbb.Eng.Sun.COM (David Chase)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Re: Run conservatives, run away! (Was: Re: Homophobics can't...)
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:44:26 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbbb

In article <athos-250892154800@athos.apple.com> athos@apple.com (Rick Eames) writes:
>I don't blame Wilson at all.  I DO blame Willie Brown.  Wilson has good
>points:
>
>* No tax increase.  We can't afford to lose even more business.
>* ...

I've been mystified by the juxtaposition of these two sentences for
some time now.  One tax increase that I heard of would have hiked the
marginal rate by 1% on single people earning over $100k, married
people earning over $200k.  I believe this was said to be "bad for
business".  (Not clear to me quite how much money it would have
brought in, but if you are reduced to taxing Twinkies, maybe it would
be a relative win.)  That means, for instance, that if I were lucky
enough to make $300k per year, that I would pay $1000/year in extra
taxes.

I don't see that this is enough to make me move "my business"
elsewhere.  In practice, what makes me want to move elsewhere is the
high cost of housing (what costs $20k/year to own here costs $5-10k to
own in many other parts of the country, and these costs apply to
people making a hell of a lot less than $200k/year), the apparently
declining support for public education, and the apparent inability of
the state (and to some extent, federal) government to come up with
rational solutions to problems like the allocation of water and
agreeing on budgets.  The cost of housing is doubly bad, because it
makes all other services (teaching, day care, medical care,
restaurants, you name it) more expensive.

My view on this is that we are actually moving towards a solution to
the cost-of-housing problem -- people will leave, reducing demand.
I've got no idea whether this will take the form of stable prices over
time, or if it will take the form of a Texas-style land crash (I
suspect the former case is more likely).

David Chase
Sun
From: cate3.osbu_north@XEROX.COM
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Info on Michael Iddings, California Senate District #13
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:20:42 GMT



     If you are frustrated with the current budget situation, and would like to
get involved in a campaign to remove Alfred Alquist, you can contact Michael
Iddings.  Michael won the Republican nomination in the June Primary.
     He is running a low key campaign.  He describs himself as a basically
Libertarian, and he wants government to let people run their own life.  He is
very skeptical of enhancing any part of government.
     If you are interested in helping him, his phone number is (408) 275 6498.
     Have a good day.

     Henry III
From: reza.naima@uttsbbs.uucp (Reza Naima)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: Isenberg
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:19:00 GMT
Reply-To: reza.naima@uttsbbs.uucp (Reza Naima)
Organization: The Transfer Station BBS, Danville, CA - 510-837-4610/837-5591


  I'm really peaved at AB 3593 which has to do with forcing the UC system 
to pump out general practitioners.   I saw him on TV this morning and it 
really annoyed me.  I'de like to send him a nice juicy note, but I'n not 
sure about his address.  Could someone plase email me the address of 
Assembly'man' isenberg (california assembly).  I can't believe his 
arrogance to the whole situation.  I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense, 
but I'm pissed.  

Thank you
reza.naima@uttsbbs.uucp


--- WinQwk 1.10a #0
 
Newsgroups: ba.politics
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:56:42 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.182747.11402@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>In article <pabhlmg@fido.asd.sgi.com>, dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>> 1.  The police are not properly trained in the use of force, either
>> lethal or non-lethal.  
>
>Probably true.  Are you willing to see your local taxes rise enough to
>provide the training?

It's not obvious that training is the problem.

Police know that their actions will be reviewed in a special light.
They know that DAs rely on them.

As long as that's true, it's unclear what effect training can have.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: loeb@ai.mit.edu (Eric Loeb)
Newsgroups: ba.politics
Subject: New election service: Clinton/Gore mail server
Keywords: automated volunteer, speeches, position papers
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:55:27 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

The automated Clinton/Gore mail server is available at

"clinton-wins@mail.clinton-gore.org"

This mail server recognizes requests in the "Subject:" field of
your mail message.  

The entire set of commands are organized as follows.  Indentation
means that all commands in sequence are required, as in
"info issue women" or "volunteer local Illinois".  Incomplete
commands (eg "volunteer") will result in more information about
that set of commands (eg all the categories of volunteer).


    help               volunteer             question  
                          local                 propose
                            (state name)        get
    info                  email                 vote
      issue                 create              
        (issue name)	    monitor 
      voting                flyers
      speeches              distribute       suggest
      local                 ftp                 propose
        (state name)   	    professional        get 
                            business            vote
    add/remove              teacher                 
      issue                 student       
        (issue name)        scientist
      local                 organize         bug
        (state name)
      news                  


Complete words will not be required as of 9/3/92 -- only
enough to dis-ambiguate your command from any other.
                     

The "add" commands will put you on a relevant discussion list,
while the "info" commands will simply send you the latest
broadcasts out of Little Rock (or your state HQ in the case of
"info local <state>").

The "suggest" and "question" commands allow you to make your
thoughts known to Little Rock HQ.  When enough questions/suggestions
and votes have been accumulated, the winners will be passed along to
Little Rock for comment.  We will then make the results known
via our "volunteer email distribute" network. 

Send just a top-level command (eg "volunteer", "add") to receive
more information about the sub-commands ("volunteer local", 
"add speeches").


Clinton/Gore '92
Volunteer Email Campaign