HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bu571@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wes Perkhiser)
Subject: Re: So, why don't big places do this? (was: Re: SSN as loan account number)
Reply-To: bu571@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wes Perkhiser)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 12:31:16 GMT


In a previous article, jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens) says:

>However, in large corporations and schools (where ID numbers might be
>needed a lot and each person should have a unique one), there is no
>reason why sequential numbers cannot be given to people.

Actually, a lot of companies do.  The one I work for uses sequential
numbers for all it's security badges.

>These numbers could be given sequentially to whomever's name came out
>of the computer first (randomly choosing someone's record).  This has
>the advantages obvious to the alt.privacy crowd, and I'm curious to
>know why big places like businesses and universities don't do this.

The main reason this is not feasible is because the people who 
work for corporation XYZ have some turnover.  Assuming you need to 
keep the records for a while, you can't re-issue the old numbers.  
You could randomize it when you first start using the numbers, 
but anyone hired after that will have to be given the next
available number (unless you want to really complicate the 
human factors aspects.)

>I realize that making an ID number based on such things may make it
>easier for people to remember, but asking people to remember one lousy
>ID number isn't a lot.

And, for those who have trouble remembering a lot of numbers, there is
always the pen&paper memory enhancement system.  :)

Wes
From: froh@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Robert Frohwerk)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: belated reference
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:55:02 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID

More references to add to Larry's...

The LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit) was the subject of Project 
Censored's item #6 from The 10 Best Censored Stories of 1988.  That item 
refered to the following:

_LA Times_, 6/24/88, "Intelligence Units Across U.S. Probe Alleged LAPD Leak," 
by William K. Knoedelseder Jr., Kim Murphy and Ronald L. Soble. 

(Background source:  _Penthouse_, Dec. 1976, "America's Secret Police 
Network," by George O'Toole). 
 
Bob       
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: bobc@allink.com (robert ciforelli)
Subject: Re: SSN as loan account number
Organization: NYNEX ALLINK Company
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:29:59 GMT

Stop filling out credit card applications and volunteering
the info.  
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: SSN as loan account number
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:13:19 GMT

In article <Bss4px.4rC@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>I hear from former students that here they went from using non-SSN
>based sequential or random numbers to the SSN scheme.  What could they
>have been thinking?

I took a graduate database course last spring, and the professor pointed
out that SSNs are really useful as unique keys....  A little later we had
a 20-minute free block where we discussed moral and ethical issues 
associated with databases, but with the other topics it wasn't possible
to say much more than "see the Usenet groups alt.privacy, comp.risks, etc."

>It's incredible how laziness and lack of thought for one's privacy
>prevails even when this University agrees to uphold certain privacy
>rules and says that they treat students fairly.

Most people simply aren't aware of the possible abuses, or don't believe
that it really happens.  Besides, nobody else complained....

I'll be registering for a class again in a few weeks at CU (which uses
SSNs as student IDs).  I think I'll give the system a little bit of
exercise: I've taken classes before, using by own SSN, but a while back
I got a letter saying that they lost the form I signed stating I did not
wish to be listed in "directory information."

I think I'll resign that form, and ask for a non-SSN student number
as well.  I'm sure they'll tell me all of the horrible risks of losing
transcript records... but I don't care (and neither do they) since I've
never been enrolled in a degree program -- I've been taking classes on
a space-available basis for fun.  I will care if I get admitted to a
degree program (I have an application in for the CS department), so it's
time to get this taken care of! :-)

I'll let people know how it goes.


Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov
From: visbrown@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: A naive question about SSN
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:23:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug15.184258.8175@news.acns.nwu.edu>, phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes...
>I heard about this often.  The danger of letting someone know my SSN.  But
>what can they do?  Can an ordinary citizen without any authority inflict
>any damage to the other ordinary citizen just by knowing his/her SSN?
> 
>James Choi

Wanna have some fun???  Call up the social Security office and them them 
that an individual is dead.   From cases that I've read about (ie. wrong 
number being entered, etc) it can take a couple of years to convince 
them that the living, breathing human being standing right in front of 
them is not dead.

This information provided for illustrative purposes only!!  I hearby 
disclaim everything.
Xref: sparky alt.privacy:1703 misc.consumers:15113
From: howard@hasse.hal.com (Howard Gayle)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy,misc.consumers
Subject: New trick from Equifax Credit Information Services
Summary: Security, data collection, or flow control?
Keywords: credit bureau, privacy
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:50:23 GMT
Reply-To: howard@hal.com (Howard Gayle)
Followup-To: alt.privacy
Distribution: na
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc., Campbell, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: hasse.hal.com

I just ordered copies of my credit report from the 3 major U.S.
credit bureaus, TRW, Trans Union, and Equifax.  I provided only
my name, address, and taxpayer identification number (T.I.N.).
TRW and Trans Union sent back reports, but Equifax sent a form
letter:

   Your request for a copy of your Equifax credit report has
   been received, and we look forward to serving you....To
   protect the confidentiality of your credit report, we
   request a *photocopy* of the following items...
   Social Security Card, driver's license, telephone or utility bill...

If they were genuinely worried that my report might fall into
the wrong hands, they could send it by registered mail, and I'd
have to go to a post office, show ID, and sign for it.  So I
suspect they're simply trying to obtain data for free that they
can then sell to their business customers.  Consider some of the
data available from these documents:

* Name verified by two government documents.
* T.I.N. verified by at least one government document.
* Address verified by government document and utility.
* Driver license number (different from T.I.N. in many states).
* Sex.
* Date of birth.
* Hair color, eye color, and appearance (from photograph on
  driver license).  This would allow at least a guess about
  ethnic group.
* Height and weight.
* Class of driver license, e.g. commercial, motorcycle.
* Signature verified by two government documents.
* Amount of monthly utility or phone bill.
* Phone number (from phone bill).

Or maybe this is simply a way to discourage people from
obtaining copies of their own credit reports.
--
Howard Gayle
HAL Computer Systems, Inc.
1315 Dell Avenue
Campbell, California 95008
USA
howard@hal.com
Phone: +1 408 379 7000 extension 1080
FAX  : +1 408 379 5022
From: gold@imp.sim.es.com (Bruce Gold)
Subject: Re: Help Needed to Find PGPv2
Reply-To: gold@imp.sim.es.com (Bruce Gold)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:25:59 GMT

Joel and other interested parties,

I just checked with kauri.vuw.ac.nz  Here is its README file.  Perhaps we should
respect the wishes of the system manager.  Are there other sites available for
PGPv2?
				Bruce Gold
				   Utah

________________________README for kauri.vuw.ac.nz_____________________________
Welcome to the VUW Kauri Archive

Micro-computer software :
  If you are from out of NZ please *DO NOT* use this archive. Instead
  try archives in your country, they will be both faster and easier to use.

Astrophysics :
  Global access and contributions welcome.
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: edp@math.zko.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: SSN as loan account number
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:57:54 GMT
Reply-To: edp@math.zko.dec.com (Eric Postpischil)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <1992Aug14.031319.8828@colorado.edu>,
bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:

>I took a graduate database course last spring, and the professor pointed
>out that SSNs are really useful as unique keys.... 

SSNs are NOT unique!  The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare
OPPOSED using SSNs as a universal identifier 20 years ago in _Records,
Computers, and the Rights of Citizens_.  The very first reason they give
against such use is:

"UNIQUENESS.  The SSN is not a unique label.  More than 4.2 million
people, by the Social Security Administration's own estimates, have two
or more SSNs.  More serious, although much less prevalent, are the
instances in which more than one person has been issued or uses the same
SSN."

They also recommend against it because of:

"RELIABILITY.  The SSN has no check-feature, and most randomly chosen
nine-digit numbers cannot be distinguished from valid SSNs.  It is thus
particularly prone to undetectable errors of transcription and oral
reporting."

"By our definition, the SSN cannot fully qualify as an SUI; it only
approximates one."


                                -- edp (Eric Postpischil)
                                "Always mount a scratch monkey."
                                edp@alien.enet.dec.com
From: marlow@egr.msu.edu (PUT YOUR NAME HERE)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: SSN as loan account number
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:05:07 GMT
Reply-To: marlow@egr.msu.edu (PUT YOUR NAME HERE)
Organization: Michigan State University
Originator: marlow@frith.egr.msu.edu

From msuinfo!frith.egr.msu.edu!marlow Mon Aug 17 12:52:23 EDT 1992
Article: 201 of alt.books.reviews
Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews
From: marlow@egr.msu.edu (Michael J. Marlow Jr.)
Subject: Privacy For Sale, Abusive Data Bases, etc... 
Originator: marlow@frith.egr.msu.edu
Keywords: Credit Reporting Agencies, Privacy, Civile Rights, etc... 
Reply-To: marlow@egr.msu.edu (Michael J. Marlow Jr.)
Organization: Michigan State University
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 16:45:54 GMT

This is a request for Books, Magazine, Newspapaer Articles, etc...
regarding Credit Reporting Agencies, & other related bussiness
which collect & sale informatio on people.

The Sunday 8-16-92 New York Times Book Review's had an article on
"Privacy For Sale, How Computerization Has Made Everyone's Private Life an Open
Secret." by Jeffrey Rothfeder .

Has anybody read that book?

Also, the Detroit News Sunday 8-9-92 had an article on how criminals
can assume your identity with only a name and Social Security #,  and
then proceed to ruin your life with fraudlent activity.  This article
was scary, because the author's credit history was destroyed, and arrest warrants
were issued for his "name & SS #" which was an alias of the criminal who 
assumed his identity fraudulently.  Fortunately the criminal was caught,
but the whole idea of companies selling private data on peole scares the
shit out of me.  Basically, you can be denied: Health Inssurance, Credit,
Loans, Housing, Employment, etc... because of wrongfull or inaccurate info
collected & stored in a data base used by a credit agency or bussines.

I'm pissed off about this because some one stole my VISA #,  and I
had a real problem because like many broke college students, I 
use credit cards to pay tuition, rent, food, gas, & textbook bills untill I
find a full time engineering position.  Basically, the issue was resolved after 50 days, but I was seriously financially inconvenienced.

What dusturbs me most, is that companies can collect & sell WITH OUT YOUR 
KNOWLEDGE & CONSENT private info on you like income, financial assets,
health history, etc... that Police Agencies can't even know without a
Search Warrant! 

How do we protect ourselves from these corporate "Big Brothers"
and criminals which may abuse the info of legitamite credit reporting agencies?

Any and all info would be most appreciated, since a friend of  mine and I are
seriously interested in this issue. ( I'm thinking about wrriting something
about it possibly)

Thanks,

Michael Marlow
Michigan State University
marlow@frith.egr.msu.edu

P.S. Please post to the net any info which other people should know too.
     I feel that this is an issue that is as important as a Civil Liberty.
From: volpe@bart.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Christopher R Volpe)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: Dean Witter invents a "second wife" for me
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:41:18 GMT
Reply-To: volpe@ausable.crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development

In article <1992Aug15.133802.11677@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher) writes:
|> # BTW, I'm not sure Smith is really the MOST common name EVERYWHERE --
|> 
|> ISTM that the most common name in the world is:
|> 	Wang

According to "Trivial Pursuit", the most common surname is "Chang".

-- 
==================
Chris Volpe
G.E. Corporate R&D
volpecr@crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: close@lunch.wpd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close)
Subject: Re: New trick from Equifax Credit Information Services
Originator: close@lunch.wpd.sgi.com
Reply-To: close@lunch.wpd.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close)
Organization: Self employed, eh.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:17:38 GMT

howard@hal.com (Howard Gayle) writes:
>   protect the confidentiality of your credit report, we
>   request a *photocopy* of the following items...
>   Social Security Card, driver's license, telephone or utility bill...

Well I don't think that they actually *use* any of this data, despite
requesting it for "proof of id".  When my husband had his SSN# usurped
recently, we were asked to provide a copy of his SSN card and driver's
license to prove he was *the* Paul Close.  When the report arrived it
still had the "crook's" address on it, as well as the crook's date of
birth and other false information.

Heck they *had* a copy of my husband's ID, why didn't they use it to
correct the form before sending it out?  Thus I don't think they
actually even look at this stuff.  :-)  When we challenged the
validity of the false data and pointed out that we had sent the a copy
of his driver's license which *does* have his correct address on it,
they responded with "well we only use that to verify who you are for
receipt of a copy of your credit report, we don't use any of that
data".

Now of course you don't have to believe what they say, but they sure
haven't use any of the data we provided for identification on any of
the profiles we've received (even ones we asked for much later to
check on whether the bad data has stayed off the report).

>Or maybe this is simply a way to discourage people from
>obtaining copies of their own credit reports.

So far I think that this is the more likely reason.  :-)

Now what I wonder is what do they *do* with these photocopies of ID,
if they don't use them for updating their files?  Just throw them
away?  I'd hate to see the crook who discovers their garbage!  What a
field day!  I hope they, at least, shred the stuff.

-- 
Diane Barlow Close
	close@lunch.wpd.sgi.com 
	I'm at lunch today.  :-)
From: rpatel@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Rachana D Patel)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: SIMPLE QUESTION
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:08:24 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug17.155922.1@woods.ulowell.edu> safarii@woods.ulowell.edu writes:

>That is how toproduce a taped evidence in court. Is it legal even if one of the
>other guys knows about it.
>


Well I know that on my answering machine there is a function '2-way'
which allows you to tape the conversation, however, there is a beep 
function (which could very well be reduced to silence) that lets the 
other party know the conversation is being taped. Further, the manual
explicitly stated that it is was illegal to tape a conversation without
consent from the other party. So, I assume you could not use that as
evidence in court since it was illegal. That is how I always interpreted it.
I mean anyone could very easily tape a conversation and the other party
wouldn't know as long as the beep was silenced. 



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rachana D. Patel                             rpatel@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
University of Pennsylvania                   Management and Technology Program 

Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)
Subject: Re: Dean Witter invents a "second wife" for me
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 12:58:05 GMT

Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu writes:
>>After checking the hard copy of the account application ( at my 
>>insistence ) the teller said, "Oh... <nervous laugh>  I know
>>what happened.  We confused your account with someone else's because
>>there are so many people with the last name of 'Ortega' with
>>accounts here."

>The ultimate revenge:  everyone changes their name to "Smith".
Well, thanks a great big heap, Joe, and may all your Social
Security benefits go to Frances Joseph.  :-)

I don't know who experiences more irritation/minor discrimination
/risks of major screwups: those of us with COMMON names, or those
of us with UNUSUAL names.

BTW, I'm not sure Smith is really the MOST common name EVERYWHERE --
there's a lot of regional variation.  I'm always intrigued that
"Jones" and "Robinson" are usually the next two metasyntactic
variables, even though "Jones" is not especially common in the
United States.

I have a question I'd like to pose, but I'm not sure of the right
way to frame it.  I maintain that "Myers" is the most easily confused
surname because it has the largest number of reasonably common,
not-alphabetically-adjacent variants. I include both the singular
and plural versions, of course. Anyway: a) How should one define the
"most easily confused surname," and b) once defined, is Mayer the
name meeting the definition?

So, the ultimate revenge is for us all to change our name to some
random variant of Meier!

-- 
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbsmith@world.std.com
From: visbrown@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: Re: So, why don't big places do this? (was: Re: SSN as loan account number)
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:14:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Bt05B6.M8H@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu writes...
>bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles) writes:

..  Stuff about using SSN as keys deleted

>For instance, at UIUC, there's no reason why each student ID number
>couldn't consist of some zeros and then a number--0000000435 (I don't
>think the leading zeroes are necessary if records are kept with modern
>computers, as most records are here, but for some reason ID numbers
>for a given thing are almost always the same length).  This number
>could signify that this student was the 435'th to get a number, but
>there's no way to determine that the 435'th person (as listed
>alphabetically by last name) is the person that corresponds to that
>number.
> 
>These numbers could be given sequentially to whomever's name came out
>of the computer first (randomly choosing someone's record).  This has
>the advantages obvious to the alt.privacy crowd, and I'm curious to
>know why big places like businesses and universities don't do this.

When I attened Michigan State, the ID #s WERE sequentially assigned to 
each accepted student. 

See, it can be done at a large institution!

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: safarii@woods.ulowell.edu
Subject: SIMPLE QUESTION
Organization: University of Lowell
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:59:22 GMT

Hi 

     Just a simple question -- 
                              I was watching a Japanese movie the other 
day and it concerned a court case. As  evidence a taped conversation was
produced. But it was not taken into consideration as it was recorded by a third
person without the knowledge of the other two. I was under the impression
this was legal. But many of my law friends say it is not. Canany one 
give the exact details of how this works in United states.
That is how toproduce a taped evidence in court. Is it legal even if one of the
other guys knows about it.

  Thanx.
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Subject: A naive question about SSN
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:42:58 GMT

I heard about this often.  The danger of letting someone know my SSN.  But
what can they do?  Can an ordinary citizen without any authority inflict
any damage to the other ordinary citizen just by knowing his/her SSN?

James Choi
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
From: bear@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: SSN as loan account number
Organization: National Oceanic & Atmospheric Adminstration / Boulder Labs
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:05:14 GMT

SSNs are supposed to be unique.  In practice they are not always unique,
but in most situations people will catch a uniqueness violation _very_
quickly.

For instance, how long do you think a student will wait before reporting
bad grades lowering his GPA, or a person will wait before informing a
credit-card company that he has never had an account with them and please
stop sending me dunning letters?

On the other hand, SSNs are universal.  There may be a rich son of a
newspaper publisher somewhere (:-) who has never worked a day in his life,
but most people now get a SSN by the time they are 2.  The only exception
is foreign students, but that constitutes a small fraction of all users.

SSNs don't have check digits, but on an online system it doesn't matter.
For billing purposes it's easy to make your account number 123-45-6789-x
where x is a standard check digit.

And so forth.  Granted, SSNs are not perfect, but they are close to a
national ID number and in _many_ cases can be used as such.  Since this
was a survey course it wasn't appropriate to dwell in the details of
the possible abuses.

(BTW, this was in the context of a discussion of how to find unique
identifiers.  There are many Bill Smiths, so name alone is not enough.
Bill Smith at 1313 Mockingbird Lane isn't enough, since Mr Smith has
a son named Bill Jr.  Toss in birthday and you're getting closer, as long
as you don't have Bill & Bob Smith, twins, both going by B. Smith.  Etc).

Bear Giles
bear@fsl.noaa.gov