HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:02:59 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <75209@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:
#
#What if the perp is armed with a knife and starts walking very deliberately
#towards you from 20 feet away.
# ....
#So, if
#you were in this situation, why not shoot for the legs (assuming you have a
#big enough gun and are a good enough shot)?
#

 Several reasons why not:

 1) Just because he is moving slowly now doesn't mean he will keep on
 moving slowly. If a normally agile person rushes you from 20 ft away, he
 can stab you in under 1.5 seconds (or so says Massad Ayoob). Conversely,
 even shooting him in the heart is not guaranteed to put him down for 15
 seconds. So you do not have any time to spare on less effective shots.

 2) Most people aren't good enough marksmen to get reliable incapacitation
 from leg shots. You would have to hit the bones, which are less than one
 inch wide along most of the leg. How many practice on moving targets at
 all? I don't have any easy way to do so.

 3) Shooting at legs can also play against you in court. It could be
 argued that you did not believe lethal force to be necessary or justified
 at the time you used it, and that this is proven by your decision to
 shoot only at non-lethal areas. But shooting a gun at someone is always
 "lethal force" in the eyes of the law.

						Matt Moore
						John Fluke Mfg. Co.
						standard disclaimers apply
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: American Rifleman = Consumer Reports?
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:18 GMT

-> # Raven and Bryco?   It's not like AR gets paid for positive reviews or 
-> # something, is it?
-> # 

[ CUT ]

-> Yeah, I was disappointed too.  I've never heard of Zamak before reading  
-> the article.  I was also surprised they just didn't come right out and say  
-> the Windicator pretty much stank, rather than beating about the bush.  I,  
-> too, assume they probably don't have as much pressure from advertisers as  
-> the other mags do [but maybe I'm wrong].
-> 
-> I would *really* like to see AR become the "Consumer Reports" of Firearms  
-> (since to my knowledge CR never "stoops" to firearms review), complete  
-> with ratings, reviews, and such...  Sorely needed!

AR probably has to be careful what they say or the manufacturers will
stop sending guns to them for review.

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ.
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What to buy....
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:26 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Nov19.133422.11770@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#Incidently, I don't expect the SKS to necessarily be directly banned,
#but I do expect some stiff import tariffs on Chinese goods in
#general next year (or maybe certain categories of Chinese
#imports will be banned).

They may not be banned at all.  Possibly, they'll just call SKSs with
detachable magazines Salt Weapons (as they currently do here in California).
True, a detachable magazine is best but Phil Ronzone tells me they can
be loaded with stripper clips quickly...

    don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Just once, I'd like to see all the runners in a race suddenly
        stop and look at each other.  And then they would come together
        and join hands.  And they would say to each other, "Hey!  Let's
        stop this silliness and one-upsmanship and win-lose approach!
        Hey!  Can't we just all be brothers?  Let's think, 'Win-Win'!"
        And they'd all march, arm in arm, side-by-side, and cross
        that darn finish tape Together!
          - sarcasm from rec.org.mensa
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Baldwin  -  Software Engineer  - e-mail to:  donb@tamri.com
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:15:47 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <199211171713.AA28975@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
#
#When I took an AR15 shooting class from a cop, he told me the regular
#stuff: I wish you would never have to use it for self-defense purpose.....
#I'm wondering if you guys can give me a scenario in which I might want to
#use a rifle instead of other weapons. Thanks.

You're taking heavy incoming fire, the bad guys are coming through the
wire, and your Claymores are exhausted. Fixing the bayonet might be
a good idea about now too.

Gary
From: jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Weapon for defense from cows
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:19:56 GMT
Organization: Lotus Development Ireland


	My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into
	the nastier one's far from our vehicle? So far the recommendations are:

Umm, I you won't like this, but I think you're over-reacting just a
tad..

Yes, I've been around plenty of cattle on the family ranch in colorado
and I've carried various sorts of weaponry for various purposes (so
I'm not on general principle opposed to carrying guns around), it's
just that I feel your average steer/cow isn't something that requires
shooting to discourage it, 12 gauge slugs notwithstanding.  I also
presume these are your cattle you're talking about - Animal control
codes are very nice and all that but I can tell you for a fact that
you're going to generate an EXTREME amount of bad feeling between
yourself and your neighbors if you blast one of their bovines!  I can
just sort of picture the extreme scorn (to say nothing of anger) on
the rancher's face as you tell him you felt really threatened by his
bull and felt compelled to put 15 rounds into it!  He'll probably also
comment on your city origins at that point and strongly suggest you
return there..

NOW.  You're probably feeling a little unfairly attacked at this point
and I want to assure you that this isn't my intention.  As you spend
more time around the ferocious bovies, I think you and your wife will
find they're more bluster than anything else (at the heart of even the
fiercest beef lurks a desperate fear of all on two legs) and can be
discouraged by a loud shout and a couple of aggressive stamps of the
foot.  I KNOW this advice sounds exceedingly thin in the face of an
aggressive bull, so I'll make another suggestion to set your mind at
ease - buy you and your wife a couple of .357 magnums with 4in.
barrels.  S&W and Ruger produce models that are very good value for
money.

The guns will be small and handy enough to carry around, yet capable
of producing a substantial report (and, should the very very unlikely
need to actually use it arise, good stopping power).  When faced with
a recalcitrant bull that a shout and aggressive stance will just NOT
dissuade, walk up to it and fire a shot into the ground near its feet
(do NOT fire at a glancing angle from a distance, the bullet may
ricochet and kill someone - don't fire into the air for the same
reason). I can guarantee you that said bull (or cow) will come very
close to breaking the speed of sound at sea level.  Should this not
work, and I'm willing to bet that you and your wife will be pushing up
the daisies from old age before cattle mutate to the stage where it
doesn't, THEN you can feel fully justified in firing the next 5 rounds
into its head.  The rancher will probably thank you for killing a cow
with BSE! ("mad cow disease").

			Jordan Hubbard (ex-moderator of rec.guns)
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info. on CZ 9mm pistol
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:03:22 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, mvjh3@mvuas.att.com (James M Hajjar) says:

#Does anyone out there have any information on CZ pistols.  I have an
#opportunity to purchase a CZ model 99 9mm pistol.  I have heard some good
#things about the Czechoslovakian firearms, but I'm concerned over the issue
#of reliability and getting parts.  I looked in Gun Digest, but the model 99
#was not listed.  Any comments will be greatle appreciated.

That's becacause it's made by Zastiva, and they now call it the Z-9,
so people don't think it is affiliated with the CZ pistols.  
It looks ok, but I've never fired one.  It is more or less a SIG 226
clone with a steel frame, ~4.25", 35 oz.   I guess it should be nice,
but I might just be tempted to go one way or the other instead:
either just pay the extra $100 and get a _real_ SIG, or get the Astra 
SIGster and save even more money. 

AR gave it a good review last year.
JD
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Browning break-in
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:45:43 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation


Ok, so I have this new Browning Hi-Power Practical (the 2-tone model)
and it needs to be broken in.  I also have about 250 rounds of 
reloads that worked well in my WWII Inglis, but are powerful enough
to cycle the slide in my new gun.  (124gr bullet with 3.5gr of 
Bullseye).  Retiring the Inglis to the safe, should I use a weaker
recoil spring in the new Hi-Power, or pull the bullets and reload
more powerful loads?

The other interesting thing is that I made a batch of ammo with 3.8gr
of Bullseye which seemed 'adequate' to cycle the slide & this is 
the maximum load shown in the Speer number 11 manual.  For comparison:

source		min	max load

Speer		3.5	3.8
Hornady		4.1	4.4
Hercules		4.9

(all loads for 124gr lead bullets & Bullseye powder)
I've been told I need to produce around 1100fps for IPSC in 9mm
which (according to the books) looks like a minimum of 4.4 grains.
Comments?
(I know, I know, REAL IPSC shooters use .45 or .38Super..... :-))

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla        |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: jimf@iwtdr.att.com (James R Fehrenbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mossberg semiauto experience
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:05:41 GMT
Organization: AT&T


I bought a Mossberg 5500MKII a while back. Did some trap shooting and had
quite a jamming problem with cheap Federal dove loads - never had a problem
with cheap Remington loads. While rabbit hunting this weekend, had lots of
jamming problems (using Winchester ammo).  It was damp but not real cold -
in the 30s and 40s. That was enough for me. Cleaned the gun up and took it 
back to Kmart - they took it back - love that store.

Last night bought a new Remington 11-87 Premier with the light contour 28"
barrel and choke tubes - a very nice handling gun. Comes in a nice hardshell
case. Gonna try it out on some pheasants this week. Hope I don't have any 
jamming problems.
From: davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com (David Post)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: $1000 Blues Wish List
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:12 GMT

We've all seen wishlists here before ( Only three guns, etc. ).

I wonder if now it might actually be helpful to do a different kind?  Maybe
it will help spur us into action.

If you had $1000 ( AFTER YOUR DONATION TO THE ILA ) , what would you buy,
for personal possesion, before the new administration takes office?
Consider the platform of the new guys, statements made by the candidates,
and likely legislation?

[ Moderator: is that sufficiently apolitical enough??? :-)  ]
	[MODERATOR: Must be, its getting posted.....]

For me:
Colt Comp HBAR and a bunch of GI magazines         $650

3 Factory nickel  Magazines for a SIG                90

6 8 round stainless factory Magazines for a 1911     90

3 20 or 30 round factory Magazines for Mini-14      120

4 factory magazines for a MKII                       50

David Post    davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com  hplabs!hpfcla!post
From: reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Lloyd D Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: follow up to shotgun question i raised earlier....
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:06:37 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility

In article <62119@mimsy.umd.edu> purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes:
#   ...[deleted]...
#3.  The December 1992 issue of Soldier of Fortune has a very interesting
#review of Scattergun Technologies mods to the Rem 870 police model.  I want
#one!    But for home brew, I have the following observation and question:
#
#---   The other sight system I was looking at via Brownell's is from the
#      same company!  It also looks good, though I have had no report on
#      them.
#
#---   The Scattergun product is described as using a "Laser Products SUREFIRE
#      tactical light, model 318".  The picture of this looks *very* appealing,
#      but no reference is given for how to find this company directly.  Does
#      anyone out there know how to track them down???
#

My Practical Shotgun instructor has a Scattergun Technologies 'baby' (our
club's term for the 14" bbl Remington 870).  It has ghost ring tritium
sights.  At our last shotgun weekend, he was running through the course
fairly late in the day, and commmented that the nighsight was very dim,
basically useless.  He contrasted this to the night sights he has used for
pistols (our club occasionally has nighttime IPSC pistol matches, whenever
weather, organization, and lack of moonlight coincide); while he considers
the tritium pistol sights useful, the shotgun sights seemed too dim.

(Side note: In Canada, shotguns with barrels under 18" are legal for
nonsemiautomatic centerfire guns, provided that they came from the
manufacturer this way, and the overall length exceeds some minimum.
I understand that the 14" 870 is an NFA weapon in the US; here, it is
classified the same as any other pump gun.  This must be one of the
rare cases where Canadian gun laws are more permissive than US law!)


-- 
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Daniel Chisholm)
reidld@ecf.toronto.edu (Daniel Chisholm)

Xref: sparky rec.guns:16557 talk.politics.guns:24380
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: International Gun Laws - Informational Posting
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:25:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.guns
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

This is a reminder about an FTP archive with articles  describing
the   gun   legislation   of  various countries.  I would like to
thank all the authors for their contributions.

The articles are available via anonymous FTP from out  local  FTP
site  ftp.vmars.tuwien.ac.at  (128.130.39.16)  in  the  directory
/pub/misc/guns/gunlaw.  The README file there contains additional
information.

The gun laws of the following countries have  been  described  so
far   ('->'  marks  signify  information that is new,  changed or
extended since my last post, that is, usually, since last week):

	Australia
	Austria
	Finland
	Germany
	The Netherlands
    ->	Sweden
	Switzerland
    ->	United Kingdom
	USA

If you are versed in the gun laws of any country but  these  men-
tioned above (or if you find some important points not covered in
the  overviews)  please  send  me  mail  (I  can  be  reached  as
holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at).   Thanks in advance for your coopera-
tion.

Please contact me BY MAIL.  I am not able to monitor Usenet  news
on a regular basis.  Some articles might get purged before I read
them.

Note: From now on, I *WILL* cover US gun laws.  Just  don't  send
me  the  special  regulations of each county, please.  Let's keep
this on a state-or-above level.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: Dave.Maycon@EBay.Sun.COM (Dave Maycon)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need Accessories for Galil AR  .223
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: male.1e8qjqINNl8f
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.

Since most assault guns and accessories have been banned in Ca., it has been
nearly impossible to purchase "stuff."  Does anybody know where I can get
a scope mount, cheek rest and a AR-15 Magazine adapter.  I need possibly
toll-free numbers or addresses of catalogs where I can get my hands on these
products.

Thanx
Dave
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <Uf2KLsm00iUyQ673A3@andrew.cmu.edu> kb13+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ken Burner) writes:
#    Here's what my gunshop friend recommends.  A stock Springfield
#Armory (tm) .45 and a Heinie (sp?) drop-in compensated barrel.  Barrels
#are remarkably interchangeable.  I can shoot the std barrel in
#IPSC/USPSA competition as a beginner, which I am, and use the comp
#barrel for bowling pins.  Later, whenever I want to compete in unlimited
#class, I can use the comp barrel in combat competition.  Essentially,
#I'd have two guns in one.  Neat.  In the meantime, I can add goodies,
#modifications, etc to the gun as I get the need.  He says that even if I
#become a serious competitor, it'll be years before my skills outgrow the
#gun (and I'm sure he meant no offense :) ).  Total cost $615.
#    I've been reading this newsgroup for the past 6 months or so and I
#haven't heard anyone mention this strategy.  It seems pretty sound to me
#-- two guns for the price of one.  You could even apply the same theme
#to the carry/combat situation -- carry your Colt Officer's with a stock
#barrel, drop in a compensated barrel to compete.
#    I'd like to hear pros/cons of this approach (I already realize that
#a gun with interchangeable barrels will not have as much inherent
#accuracy as one with a permanent barrel, but since the stock barrel is
#removable anyway, I don't think this is a major problem). 

This is a sound idea.  However, you could go one step further, and use the
same barrel, but just alternate bushings.  Use a standard match grade bushing
for Limited Class, and then use something like a B.A.T. Comp-Bushing for pins
and Open Class...

-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (V)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:08:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: cherokee.199211161829.AA08130
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

Back in northern MN we used to have access to a farmers private land fill. 
 It was filled with thousands of potential targets and we didn't have to 
clean up.

My personal favorite is to used glass jars or jugs.  Just fill them and 
screw the cap on under water so there is no air present.  I shot an apple 
cider jug at 150 yards with a .223 FMJ.  The glass powdered completely.  
All we found was about an inch of the thick handle.  The cap flew out of 
sight.

I also like to put cardboard in an old tire and prop it on a hill.  
Someone with a scoped rifle shoots out the prop and the tire rolls down 
hill bouncing like a deer.  Another action oriented target is balloons 
(not helium) on a windy day.

Have fun,

Craig
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks and Lead Bullets?
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:25:07 GMT
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

In article <By52EA.663@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
#In article <1992Nov22.043754.5571@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:
#>That "improved" barrels for the Glocks are being manufactured is
#>rather amusing; I've also read of "improved" bullet designs for
#>the Glock.
#
#	Hu? Why is it amusing? I've seen a glock shot sub-2" groups 
#	with a BarSto barrel installed. I've never (out of about
#	10 or so) seen another glock that would do better than about
#	3.5-4". 

Okay, that rated a 10 for obtuseness ...  It's amusing because Glock
uses the word "Perfection" in all their ads for all their guns.  If
it was perfect would there be a need for BarSto barrels, special bullet
designs, an "upgrade" of internal parts going on, and so on.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Case
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:50:55 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <659@bongo.UUCP>, julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey) writes:
# 	Some people wrap their guns in blankets and pretend they are
# curtain rods. Others use various gun cases. Many people sell "Nylon
# Assault Rifle Cases". These are made to fit an AR-15 and have pouches
# for magazines. They come in black or cammo. These are soft cases and
# offer little protection. They look like they contain an AR-15 - They
# usually do. Then there are nifty hard aluminium cases about 40
# Ins long, just the job, but they cost $150.00 and up. Then there are
# the plastic Doskocil (SP?) cases ($40.00). These are long enough for 
# a pair of double barreled wildfowl shotguns. They are unwieldy, hardly 
# fit in most trunks and have some some godawful ugly moulded carvings 
# of animals in the plastic. Ugly, tasteless and unwieldy all in one case.

It is possible to order them without the cute little creatures in
the side.  There are at least two lengths of these cases -- I
have the shorter model.

# 	But the big problem with these cases is they say "Rifle Case"
# to anyone who sees you sauntering down Melrose Avenue carrying it.
# Seeing as having a rifle is not politically correct, this can cause
# unwanted grief.
# 
# 	So,  while visiting musician friends I noticed they had 
# these cool guitar shaped cases that fit an AR-15 with a few inches 
# to spare. So I bought a guitar case at my local guitar store. These 
# cost between $50-75 new. Less used with Van Halen stickers on them. 
# They need some surgery to remove the guitar neck supports etc. But they 
# make a damn fine case. Someone with some skill could add elastic grips 
# for spare mags etc and have a very nice setup.

# Julian Macassey, julian@bongo.info.com  N6ARE@WA6FWI.#SOCA.CA.USA.NA

Very true.  But if you buy one of the pins that allows an AR-15
to use a push pin at the front, instead of the two screws, you
will discover that a perfectly ordinary suitcase will hold the
two halves of an AR-15 or clone without any problems at all.
Even less noticeable than a guitar case.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
We could say that Congress spends money like drunken sailors.  But that would
be unfair -- to the sailors.  They, at least, are spending their own money.