From: laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ageism and Not-Ageism
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:05:46 GMT
Reply-To: laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton)
Organization: Nebula Consultants in San Francisco

In article <1992Nov4.221937.4224@oracle.us.oracle.com> dgilly@us.oracle.com (Daniel Gilly) writes:
>In article <37876@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.UUCP (Laura Creighton) 
>recounts the unfortunate reaction to an otherwise wonderful friendship:
>
>>Only later did I discover that the real prejudice was not
>>directed towards me, but towards him.  You are 55!  You
>>must not ever spend time or make freinds with people who
>>could be your grandchildren!  Think of the scandal!
>
>I'm curious as to what type of scandal these people had in mind.  Was it:
>
>1)  "You are young and lacking in self-confidence.  He is older
>and wiser; therefore, he might 'take advantage' of you."
>
>or 2)  "Well-adjusted people are [as you said, Laura] kindred
>with those +/- 5 years in age.  If he is with you, he probably
>doesn't have any peers.  He's probably maladjusted.  He's sick.  He's
>dangerous."

The scandal I heard, when I had to get about as offensive as I
could get without picking up a stick and beating my student 
advisor, ran as follows:

You are 19.  You don't know nothing.  You are more or less
worthless.  Nobody aged 55 could be interested in your company
because of your witty repartees, your beliefs, your values,
or just that you are fun to be with.  You are 19.  You don't
have any beliefs, repartees, style, anything that could be
fun in itself.  Hell, you are an *undergraduate* and at your
age damn lucky to be one!  Nobody likes undergraduates! They
are the slime of the universe!

And you make the preposterous claim that Ted is not a freind
of the family, but somebody you have correspondeded with over 
electronic mail?  What were you promising, sweetheart?  Not
just the pleasure of your conversation!

We know that you must be lovers.  And we have to tell you
that there is something seriously ill with letting yourself
be used that way.  Sex is only fine between people of similar
ages.  All the rest is crude exploitation!

and more of this ilk....

The scandal is that somebody would accuse him of being a sex
fiend who robbed cradles to debauch innocent young students
like me.


>I can't respond to the false assumption of "something more" going
>on in a friendship.  Wrt my 3 friendships with older men, the 
>assumption would have been true.  However, I can relate to the
>reactions.  

Many years later, for one evening, we attempted a ``something
more'' -- and it didn't work.  This had a lot to do with the
cancer drugs he was taking at the time.  And a lot to do with
the fact that my lover Linda had been killed in a car accident.

Ted had met Linda.  Possibly he didn't be more forward towards
sex because he knew that my great sexual love and lust was directed
towards Linda.  But it doesn't matter for the purpose of the
discussion that he had other reasons for not trying something more.

With a curious mind, he was very interested in what the heck it
was that lesbians did in bed.  With a kind spirit, he thought
that any asking of the question would be purient, or offensive.

After knowing him as a friend for 3 years, he asked me.  Only 
after that time could he be certain that he could ask, and be
accepted as `curiosity and information seeking' rather than
some sort of perverse folk who goes home and lusts after
imagined lesbians having sex with each other.  He was most
sensitively curious, and most sensitively frightened of being 
accused of being a voyeur, at best.
>
>When my mother first spoke to Bob, over the phone, one of her
>strongest comments was, "Pick on someone your own age."  I don't
>believe she was thinking like 2) above.  At the time, she was hoping
>I was going through a phase (you know, haven't found the right girl).  
>So she was afraid that a "confirmed homosexual" (Bob) would lead me down 
>the "dark path" of homosexuality (Yes -- her response evoked the creed 
>of the Jedi knights!)  Now that she's gotten to know him, and has
>seen the positive effects of our being together, she regards him
>as highly as she does her other children's partners.

You have a decent mother.  Some day thank her for this.
>
>On the flip side, Bob's friends and relatives initially saw me as
>dysfunctional and/or a gold digger -- understandable, since Bob
>had just ended an affair with someone just like that.  I'm on
>great terms with Bob's kids, now that they've adjusted to the
>initial "weirdness" of it all.

good luck to you.  This is a very difficult path to follow.
>
>Oddly, my very progressive and PC sister-in-law has explicitly
>assured us that -- while she is completely comfortable with us
>as a gay couple, she *is* concerned about our age difference.

Some day ask her why this matters.

>I'm not sure, but I think she feels that we would be too
>idealogically or culturally different to be a viable couple.

So no Black Republicans ever marry White Democrats.
She has something else here....

>Hmmm.   Laura, you've spurred me to question her more about this.

Good.  Thank you for telling me.

>
>>But always there was this whispering about illicit sex.
>>When I turned 25, it slowed down a lot.  I guess I was not
>>cradle-bait.  But the idea that one of my best friends could
>>be more than twice my age was fundamentally unnacceptable.
>>
>>No wonder the elderly are often isolated.
>>What the hell do we do about this abomination?
>
>I wish I knew.
>
>One difference between your story and our situation is, of course,
>the gender.  Presumptions of sexual involvement are easier for the 
>average person to make when a man and a woman are involved.  For example,
>around our neighborhood, I'm sure many people assume we're father
>and son.  Our landlords don't, of course.  I have no idea if they've
>figured us out, but they treat us nicely and that's all that's important.
>
>What I find interesting is that there are two other situations in which
>people view us (presumably) as friends (certainly not as related).
>There is a friendly grocery clerk who has come to recognize us at
>our local store -- "I remember you guys!"  I guess it's unusual for
>her to see an older and younger man shopping together.  Then there's
>this sweet old lady who runs Mailboxes Etc.  We used to arrive 
>together to check our mail.  On several occasions, Bob has gone
>alone, and upon his return, has told me the lady asked him, "Where's
>your little buddy?"  We've wondered whether she figured us out.
>In any case, her phrasing always amuses us.

Keep all the joy you can get.

>
>Maybe these situations aren't good examples, since they involve
>relative strangers, but for us, they're uplifting moments.
>-- 
>Daniel Gilly                                   dgilly@us.oracle.com 

Thank you very much for your post.

Is there any chance that you can get Bob to read it and post *his*
reactions?

I come across this problem from the `younger' side, as do you.
I'm very interested in the `elder' side.

But thak you very much for replying in any case,
Good luck to you and all you hold dear.

Laura 
-- 
    Since Ryan White was buried in April 1990, his grave has been vandalized
    *more than* four times.

    (this news courtesy Phil Paxton ipwp400@indycms.bitnet)

Laura Creighton 
toad@toad.com
hoptoad!laura