HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brl@kopasker.is (Bjorgvin Runar Leifsson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Trinity help needed (spoilers)
Date: 19 Jan 93 23:28:12 GMT
Organization: Primary School of Kopasker, Iceland

John_R._Downing@bmug.org writes:

>You have to push the tree in the direction of the chasm after you chop it, I
>think North.  As for the icicle, that's got me too.


Do you mean you need help about the icicle?  If so...

Spoilers below:




















Take the icicle straight up to the tower with the sundial.  Then it hardens
again and you have time to take it to the crater.  I suppose you know what to
do with it there.

Bjorgvin R. Leifsson
brl@kopasker.is
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:07:06 -0500 
From: Eric Mitchell Snider <weasel+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Delta Tao!

Hi! I'm Eric from Delta Tao Software... Anyway, we just hired a person
(John Speck) to take orders, etc. So you should have no problem
placing orders now. The number to call if you want to buy something or
upgrade your Spaceward Ho! is (800) 827-9316.

The Spaceward Ho! upgrade is $15.

Thanks for all the positive comments.


-Eric
p.s. I'm working on a solitaire game...
From: shiderly@unix.ttb.dec.com (Roy Shiderly UNIX Software Marketing)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Civilization CHEATS?
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:23:13 GMT
Reply-To: shiderly@unix.ttb.dec.com (Roy Shiderly UNIX Software Marketing)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: unix.ttb.dec.com

You can find out what your world looks like.

With the world map open, after you have established a city
click on what you are producing (or "change production"), then 
when the list of items to produce comes up, click on help. This
exposes the entire world map. You can' see who is where, but it
does let you see if you are stuck on an island or on a large land
mass. This is also very useful to help guide ships to land.

I haven't tested this much, but I play with all the options on,
and have only seen this not work a couple of times.

Roy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: bob_bolt@itc.educ.ualberta.ca (Bob Bolt)
Subject: Re: Pax Imperia--going back.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:48:00 GMT

I bought Pax and I think it is great alpha stuff. Of course, one should not
be selling alpha stuff...

My beefs:
The software is not done yet. It should not have been release when it still
crashes now and then. Also, it has strange window positioning ideas. I have
a color and a monochrome monitor on my ci. Often, when I hit the zoom box,
things go into b&w because the window spills over into the next window. It
really should have had network cap.

My non-beefs:
What James perhaps does not realize is that Pax seems to do almost
everything async. This is really nifty from a developer's perspective. Of
course, this will probably account for some of the bugs we have seen but it
could provide for some pretty powerfull processing. 

I really hope that they can fix the problems quickly.


Mark
Instructional Technology Centre
University of Alberta
Mark_Morrill@itc.educ.ualberta.ca
From: seanmcd@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Street Fighter
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:03:18 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <2+p3q2a@rpi.edu>, deweeset@ptolemy3.rdrc.rpi.edu (Thomas E. DeWeese) writes:
> In article <cshotton-250193124726@oac2.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> cshotton@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Chuck Shotton) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan25.113208.10547@ac.dal.ca>, seanmcd@ac.dal.ca wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not a hardware problem? Explain how such games can be done on the genesis
>>> when it has the identical processor to a mac plus. There are certain 
>>> dedicated hardware features in such game consoles that allow you to do fast
>>> rotation, scaling, and scrolling. How much do you know about Mac 
>>> programming?
>>> I'm not an expert, but I know that page flipping ability is limited, you 
>>>can't change the pointer to video memory to get fast scrolling and there's no
>>
>>I would suggest that you spend some time learning about the Mac hardware
>>and operating system before you make such broad, generalized statements. In
>>the meantime, if you want all of the features of a SNES or Genesis, then go
>>buy one. If you want a general purpose desktop computing system, then buy
>>something like a Mac.
> 
>   Well I have spent some time learning about Mac hardware and I back up his
> statements 100% (or really close anyway).  I agree that if you want a true
> arcade game system buy a SNS of Genesis, or lynx or what ever looks good at
> the time.  BUT DON'T TAKE HIS POST OUT OF CONTEXT!!!!!!
>   His post was in reply to some one who obviously was unaware of the 
> hardware limitations of the Mac.  (It is IMPOSSIBLE to do full screen scrolls
> of a pixmap, on an LC class machine, @ 8bpp).  This would be a prerequisit
> for a game such as Street Fighter TM (whoever).  The person he Followed up 
> claimed that it was the simply the marketing types fault that there was
> no Stree Fighter for the Mac.  It also would be very difficult to animate 
> PixMaps the size that Street Fighter uses (that probably could be done 
> though).  So while a Street Fighterish game could be done on the Mac I 
> think the "look and feel" (we all know how important that is :) would be 
> very different (not nessesarily worse just not Street Fighter).
> 
Just to make a point in Chuck's defence (gosh I'm civil...) my post originated
on c.s.m.h., but somehow ended up in c.s.m.g. So reading it out of context
was somewhat understandable.

Sean
From: an780@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Travis Grundke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Kings Quest V
Date: 23 Jan 1993 19:31:37 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: an780@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Travis Grundke)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


 Am I the only one who was disappointed with Sierra's Kings Quest V for
Macintosh? I've seen the VGA/Soundblaster version and when I saw SQ-V it
just reaked of a direct "Port" from the PC version in terms of graphics.
The interface is fine by me, but the graphics reaked of being typical
blocky VGA graphics...just me or anyone else agree?

 
-- 
Travis Grundke		   |If you would like to receive a FREE Trial issue
Contributing Editor,	   |of MacGames Digest, the best source for Mac games, 
MacGames Digest	 	   |news and reviews- please reply to this e-mail 
an780@cleveland.freenet.Edu|address. 1992-1993 MacGames Digest
From: pld@soda.berkeley.edu (Paul DuBois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Civ Disk Problem (Read!)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 20:51:10 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

Sorry unrelated, but Disk First Aid really is useful -- just because it's
free doesn't mean it doesn't work.

ObGame:  does anybody know how to get past the (I think) 31st step of
the Pigramage in Heaven and Earth?  It's a card game one, where you need
to get 2400 points.  I can't seem to get beyond 2300 -- ack!

-- 
Paul DuBois				       Permanent: pld@soda.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Distribution: world
From: Ron_Hunsinger@bmug.org
Organization: BMUG, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:02:30 PST
Subject: Re: Zork bug?

>By the way, how do you kill the thief? Back on the PC I remember trying
>for a very long time. The thief is very difficult to hurt, and when I'm
>somewhat successful he keeps leaving me. Finally, I located the Zork
>random number generator and changed it so I could kill him easier.

The thief gets easier to kill as (game) time progresses.  They want you to
be able to kill him eventually, but not until he has made your life
miserable for a while.  I kept wanting to kill the troll and the thief
right off, and then get on with the "real" game.  You can't.

Besides, it turns out that you need him.  He's the only one with the
dexterity to repair one of the treasures.  (I think it's a Faberge egg.
You find it broken, and have to let him steal it.  When you finally
find his lair and kill him there (it's late in the game, so you can), you
will find the egg repaired.)

On the grander front: Mapping mazes is part of many of the adventure-
type games.  To keep it interesting, the game designer has to keep coming
up with ever more obnoxious ways to force you to learn ever more
clever ways to do it.  Like in Leather Goddesses of Phobos, the maze is
in a sewer, and anything you drop disappears into the, well, um, water.
Or in enchanter, the problem is that some of the rooms don't have floors,
and the maze is all glass, so you can't tell which ones until you fall.
And so forth.

**** From Planet BMUG, the FirstClass BBS of BMUG.  The message contained in
**** this posting does not in any way reflect BMUG's official views.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: schweda@iastate.edu (Christopher Schweda)
Subject: Civilization -- Need a HD disk drive?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 15:36:20 GMT


I'm thinking about ordering a copy of Civilization. Problem is, I only
have an SE 4/60 but w/o a High Density disk drive. The clerk at 
MacConnection said that the game needed a HD disk drive. My question
is this: I have access to a HD disk drive on a friends computer. Does
the game continually need the HD disk in the computer to run? Or can
I copy the game onto my friends computer with the HD disk drive, then
port the game from his computer to mine by loading it on my hard disk,
thereby circumventing the need for the HD.


Does this make sense? My question boils down to: if I can find a way to
get the program on my hard drive, will I *still* need the presence of
a HD drive for the game to run?

Thanks for the help.



Regards,
Chris
---
iolHDby the hardbe,dyoopeCanos40 /4v,a
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: lpoza@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Luis Poza)
Subject: Mac Civ for $39 mail order
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 09:56:04 GMT


Just in case anyone might find it useful--I bought Civ from
MacConnection (1-800-334-4444) for $39 plus $3 overnight shipping.  No
tax if out-of-state (I don't know if they're in New Hampshire or Ohio...
ask them when you call).  Great deal.  And no, I don't work there.  I
just thought someone else thought they were getting a good deal at $50,
too (they gave me that price [which includes tax & shipping] and made it
sound like I was getting a bargain at another mail-order place).  I just
can see no reason why to buy this game at a local retail shop--when for
$10-15 less you can have it delivered to your door next-day....
From: ez001834@dale.ucdavis.edu (Eric)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Prince of Persia Level 7, end
Summary: Who went through the gate???
Date: 28 Jan 93 06:21:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis

Has anyone gone through the gate at the end of level 7? If so, what do you
find? Just wondering... :)

Eric Hamilton			UCDavis
ehhamilton@ucdavis.edud
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: achilles@cheshire.oxy.edu (Gregory Jonathan Williams)
Subject: Re: Strategic Conquest strategies, cheats, hacks...
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:45:12 GMT

In article <C19JGx.qK@rice.edu> wgrd@owlnet.rice.edu (W. Gavin Robert Duncan) writes:
>If you really want to mess with the game, there's the "Strategic Conquest Cheater".  It allows you to add/remove both your and your opponents units, change any unit's fuel/strength/blast radius, alter unit type, and change opponents (ie: from computer to human).
>Unfortunately, I don't remember how I got a hold of it, so I can't give you any info on how to find one.
>

Yes, such a program exists.  I had it once, but when I got my SC 3.0 upgrade,
I found out the cheater only works with 2.0 saved games (at least the version
of the cheater I had would only work w/2.0 games.)

Well, while SC is getting so much discussion (and deservedly so!) I'd like to get opinions about the strategies the computer employs in 2.0 and 3.0.  I like
3.0 better than 2.0 except I thought it was a terrible idea to give the 
computer an island with 15 cities on level 15, 14 on 14, etc (or whatever the ratio is)...I don't think 
this challenges one to come up with innovative strategies, just makes you
stockpile for a while and go an a fairly boring blitzkrieg.  I liked 2.0's
system of increased beginning weaponry but no concentrted groups of cities.
Made you worry about where else he could be, not just confined to one
unrealistic mega-island.  Still, SC is one of the greatest mac games ever...
waiting for 4.0....

Oh yeah, if a Delta Tao person is reading this, how about leasing Pirates
from MicroProse and making it system 7 compatible?  I'm sure the rules
of big business make this almost impossible, but hey, it would be a way for two parties to make some money on a game which is currently languishing in obscurity.

-Greg

From: Matt.Voglewede@p977.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Matt Voglewede)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Wolves demo
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:13:15 -0500

    I'm not sure, but a lot of the things I have heard about Creepy Castle make
me think that Wolves in the Woods was its predecessor.  For example, Wolves is
B&W only, Creepy Castle is too.  Someone either in this conference or MAC_GAMES
asked how to get the "power of the vampire" in the fourth(?) level of Creepy
Castle.  In Wolves, you get the "jumping power of the werewolf" after
jump-kicking a werewolf to kill it.  I think the game Wolves advertizes is
"Frankie's Dungeon," which is supposed to be a commercial game, "but you can get
it for the special price of $$.$$ if you act now," etc.  I think that Creepy
Castle was just a name change and Creepy Castle IS Frankie's Dungeon.
    BTW, I think Wolves was a great demo, especially since I had a Plus when it
came out.  Why is Creepy Castle getting bad reviews if it is the full version of
Wolves?  Did anyone else notice the similarities I did?

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: mlynn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Matthew A Lynn)
Subject: Microsoft Flight Simulator
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:59:06 GMT

Would anyone mind e-mailing me about their experience with
Microsoft's Flight Simulator?  Tell me what you like and dislike
about it.  Should I bother purchasing it?  Thanks for your help!
Matt

matt@sws.mps.ohio-state.edu or mlynn@magnusug.magnus.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Software Engineering Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 15:17:29 -0500 
From: Todd Keenan Bowman <tb0o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: For Sale: Space Rogue

For Sale:

SPACE ROGUE
Role-playing space game from Origin. This game is very similar to Elite, but
with more of a storyline. B/W and color. Works fine on my IICI w/ system 7.01.
$10 (+$2 shipping in US)

todd

(my apologies to everyone who replied before. The person who originally wanted
the game is no longer interested and I deleted the list of names)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Distribution: world
From: Ron_Hunsinger@bmug.org
Organization: BMUG, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 02:51:46 PST
Subject: Re: PoP level 12 and Monkey Island???

>These two games are fustrating me!! Could some kind soul tell me how I
>can get pass my shadow on level 12? I can't kill it, I can't get pass
>it, can't push him off.....what else can I go?? 


Hint follows:









(keep going)













Answer:  None of the above.  Is there something else you can do?

More explicit hint follows:








Check page 12 of the manual to see what your combat options are.
Have you tried them all?

**** From Planet BMUG, the FirstClass BBS of BMUG.  The message contained in
**** this posting does not in any way reflect BMUG's official views.
From: chiu@mbcl.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: A-Train Construction set for Mac
Date: 23 Jan 93 07:35:53 GMT

I saw that EggHead sells the A-Train construction set for Mac at local store.
Does anyone out there ever buy this tool? What is its function? Any review?
Thanks
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: aggie@wealthy.ocean.fsu.edu (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: Street Fighter
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games
Organization: An Ol Ag surrounded by a bunch of unfriendly Seminoles
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:05:18 GMT

In article <C1JpAB.A71@world.std.com>, tfish@world.std.com (Tex Fish)
wrote:
> 
> In article <cshotton-270193161038@oac2.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> cshotton@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Chuck Shotton) writes:
> >Studies have shown that the average human eye is unable to detect flicker
> >at frame rates of 19 fps and above. Apple's studies done in conjunction
> >with QuickTime development found that frame rates as low as 8 fps are
> >acceptable for full motion video. So all of the posturing about how lame
> >the Mac is for not supporting 60 fps is ludicrous. Your eye won't see the
> >difference.
> 
> 	I would agree that 60 fps is silly, but whatever the studies say,
> I can definitely detect flicker at 19fps, and huge flicker at 8.  I think
> Apple was just dreaming.

You must hate watching animated movies, except for Disney ones. They're
about the only ones who can afford to animate at such a high frame rate.
Most people get by at 10 or 12 fps, and some at 8. Apple wasn't just
"dreaming".

Maybe you can see the flicker. That makes you unique. Unfortunately for
you, tho, the industry will go for the most bang for the buck, which is
a lower frame rate.

James
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: christer@cs.umu.se (Christer Ericson)
Subject: Re: TINIES level codes
Organization: Dep. of Info.Proc, Umea Univ., Sweden
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:55:39 GMT

In <1993Jan20.205649.8189@oakhill.sps.mot.com> rjacks@austlcm.sps.mot.com (rodney jacks) writes:
>
>Does anyone have the level codes for Inline Design's
>new puzzle game, THE TINIES?  Or at least the password
>for level 54?  I'm stuck on level 53 (password diurgasi) 
>and can't seem to complete the level in the given amount of time.
>
>BTW, this game has been a lot of fun to play (IMO) even
>if the sounds/soundtrack are annoying.

Below is a dump of the passwords for all levels:

000 - adjuaces
001 - gasiandi
002 - groidekn
003 - nebacruc
004 - restusha
005 - entrlaco
006 - botcrepa
007 - octoanva
008 - coadsupp
009 - rawbskit
010 - tangvili
011 - denajoin
012 - vambthea
013 - unpasubo
014 - landpapy
015 - preppand
016 - nifesail
017 - brocindi
018 - buskpuli
019 - logimara
020 - octoglab
021 - trisemes
022 - convjeho
023 - rendclin
024 - negapoly
025 - petracce
026 - sponencr
027 - lazyhomi
028 - hendoutk
029 - papyepip
030 - cockstum
031 - ethigang
032 - inladonc
033 - inteassa
034 - mastwood
035 - abroinst
036 - backbana
037 - eclowhip
038 - groiimpo
039 - cubacuba
040 - decldrol
041 - simpunde
042 - unhuscho
043 - legamura
044 - animcate
045 - laugmaga
046 - palsdyss
047 - brocreve
048 - porrunde
049 - uiguaper
050 - nonhmisc
051 - perusmit
052 - dyssdekn
053 - diurgasi
054 - odorcaus
055 - peasanch
056 - urordefe
057 - subbpick
058 - rulascar
059 - noduooph
060 - cobegale
061 - troltacs
062 - peasvamb
063 - xylowire
064 - sciumint
065 - eugerune
066 - erupplot
067 - mariconk
068 - nurshisp
069 - snobhomo
070 - portcaro
071 - chargeda
072 - unnepows
073 - poonroma
074 - preaprep
075 - sailzoon
076 - isosnurs
077 - hendwood
078 - agonupsn
079 - landdivu
080 - nickmast
081 - pickroll
082 - outsspot
083 - kalaacce
084 - telorula
085 - worklaud
086 - graiupla
087 - poloocto
088 - repadeta
089 - feldunfo
090 - badivell
091 - patibeef
092 - titasauc
093 - pupiunpr
094 - masterup
095 - quarfeld
096 - grifside
097 - whitunni
098 - downinsu
099 - unliisop

Christer Ericson --- Internet: christer@cs.umu.se --- tel: +46-90-166794
Department of Computer Science, University of Umea, S-90187 UMEA, SWEDEN
From: ledzian@remus.rutgers.edu (LEDZIAN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: "3 in Three" game
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:37:40 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

dobrien@sybase.com (Dave O'Brien) writes:

>In article <1993Jan15.181404.12979@pool.info.sunyit.edu> Terrance
>Stedman, gtas1@pool.info.sunyit.edu writes:
>>	I need some help solving the aforementioned game.  I've gotten
>>most of the way through it, but am now hopelessly stuck.  I'm at the 
>>"Temple of Rhyme nor Reason" and the clue is to "Spell FRIEND and enter."
>>I have no idea what to do.  Can anyone help?

Well if you go back to the earlier scenes some of them have 3 letter blurbs i 
think there are about 16 in all well you only need six (at least for this part)
If you look carefully you will find that these six each begin with one letter
of the word friend  example	fyh
				rds
				ins
				ens
				nps
				dhn  
these aren't the exact letter but it should give you a good idea what you are
looking for and what to type in.  By the way the next scene is significanly
worse (i'm stuck on this one)  if you make any progress please post.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
From: gre253@mis.csiro.au (Steven Green (+61 6 276 6813))
Subject: Maelstrom cheat mode ?
Organization: CSIRO ITS
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 07:41:21 GMT

Does anybody know if there is a CHEAT MODE in Maelstrom ?

Excellent game!

-- 
* Steve Green     *  "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outa my hat!"    *
* Comms Group     *  "That trick never works"                            *
* ITS Branch      *  "Nothin' up my sleeve - PRESTO"                     *
* CSIRO Australia *  "No doubt about it - I gotta get another hat"       *
From: robert@hccw.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games
Subject: Re: Strategic Conquest strategies, cheats, hacks...
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:01:51 PST
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.games
Distribution: world
Organization: Health Care Computer Works, Las Vegas, Nevada

In article <dcutter-210193140700@fp1-st-affairs-14.uoregon.edu>, dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) writes:
> 	Also I have been playing all sorts of strategy games for a while, 
> and am
> wondering if this thought is valid: the computer can only play as well as
> the person who programed the game... i.e. Stratcon can only play up to the
> level of the Delta Tao programer (Peter I believe) who designed the AI
> algorithm.

  In a nutshell, the answer is no (sort of).  A good example is a chess
program.  Most (if not all) programmers that write good chess programs
can't beat the program when it is really trying.
  Games like Strategic Conquest are more complicated to program.  They
don't have the simple board that chess does.  There is much more to
take into consideration.  The programmer must teach the computer the
basic strategies of the game, and then take advantage of the computer's
ability to look at all the options and make a decision.  Defining
what is important, and what is not, makes a big difference on how
the computer will play.
  If the programmer misses a major facet of game strategy, the computer
will never realize it and that will become its achiles' heel.

  I don't have 3.0 yet, is it true that it doesn't cheat?  What's
this I hear about it starting with more than the player at the higher
levels?

> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Dann Cutter  Stellar Enterprises / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu
-- 
Robert Duran Jr.                Internet: robert@hccw.com
Programmer/Analyst              Proverbs 10:9
Health Care Computer Works
Las Vegas, NV
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Thursday, 21 Jan 1993 18:08:44 MST
From: <IGMJG@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,
Subject:    *** Still for sale or trade

I still have PGA Tour Golf for sale ($25) or trade. Please reply if interested.
---
Take care,
                                         Bitnet: igmjg@asuacad.bitnet
Mike Golaszewski                       Internet: igmjg@asuvm.inre.asu.edu
Arizona State University                   (or): proterm@aol.com