HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:05:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Oct13.133202.13651@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, edp@math.zk3.dec.com
(Eric Postpischil) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Oct12.225021.20519@engage.pko.dec.com>,
> moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:
> 
> >Besides, which of the following elections would have been be more likely for a
> >Perot-type candidate to run in 1992, assuming that the 1988 results were as
> >follows?
> 
> Your second suggestion is impossible; "blank" ballots are not reported. 
> Current voting methods provide no way to determine whether a person
> voted "blank" in the Presidential-elector election or whether they did
> not vote in that election (but were in the voting booth to vote for
> candidates in other elections and/or to vote on referenda).

Yes, there is.  When the vote count shows that 1,000,000 people voted for
senator, but 750,000 voted for president, that shows that there were
250,000 blank ballots for president.

> No, you are confusing power with authority.  If you don't vote, somebody
> does win and does exercise power, but you have in no way _authorized_
> them to do so.

You have, by default.  You gave tacit authorization by not attempting to
prevent it.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: mdiehl@triton.unm.edu (J. Michael Diehl)
Subject: Re: Perot and trust
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 21:43:23 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


|	It seems to me that this is a great example of "imperfect
|knowledge" affecting a "market", or the prisoner's dilemma game (where
|the optimal solution in the face of imperfect information is betrayal).
|	Do people think that if more people knew that people were voting
|for Perot, more people would vote for him, rather than against Bush and
|for Clinton?

|Fer God's sake, no flames! I posted this as an intellectual problem.

Flames?  Hell, I think it's an interesting point; I laughted out loud in the 
middle of the comp. lab.  Also, I think you hit the single most important
obstacle to Perrot's election....right on the nose.  Just between you and me...
I'm voting for Perrot.  Tell the world.  Defeat the game.

+-------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+
|  J. Michael Diehl  ;-]  |  I thought I was wrong once.  But, I was mistaken. |
|                         +----------------------------------------------------+
|  mdiehl@hydra.unm.edu   | "I like children.....they bounce!"                 |
|  Thunder@forum          |                                                    |
|  Thunder@Tiny*          |               +-------------------+                |
|  (505) 272-HaHa         |               |THIS SPACE FOR RENT|                |
+-------------------------+---------------+-------------------+----------------+


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Famous Mensans
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 17:58:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.084931.18162@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>And no cracks about how Illinois is not all East of the Mississippi. Must
>I forever cover my ass in this group?

Crack.  Ass.  I get it.
>
>>You're supposed to be doing my chart, here, so there's credibility at
>>stake!
>
>Huh? We've already concluded that my net worth is the sum of other's estimates
>of me. What they don't know is that I don't care.

Firstly, I don't know who "we" is, because I haven't concluded that.
Secondly, if you don't care, how can you conclude that your net worth is
the sum of other's estimates?  Some of us are just waiting to see what
you come up with before  judging your input's worth.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Geneticism
Date: 7 Oct 92 02:27:08 GMT
Reply-To: "Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA>
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd.

In article <VC0IWSL0Q@linac.fnal.gov>, crawdad@fncent (Matt Crawford) writes:
|> >From the keyboard of radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams):
|> >: By the way, I do consider homosexual relations ... a perversity.  Even 
|> >: casting religious beliefs aside, such relations are entirely unnatural, 
|> >: as they can never lead to offspring.  This does not cause me to hate such 
|> >: individuals, and indeed I have worked with and came to respect such an
|> >: individual, but the act itself I can see as nothing less than disgusting.
|> >: Why would anyone not born with such a genetic defect actually choose to 
|> >: commit such perversity?  I have even heard that some study showed that 
|> >: most people do have some homosexual experience sometime in their lives, 
|> >: but I can honestly say that I have never once had such a desire.
|> 
|> Hmmmm.  I could say much the same about watching television.  It's
|> unnatural, cannot lead to offspring, is disgusting, and most people
|> have done it.
|> 				Matt

Just don't expect me to disagree with this, although I admit that I have
actually tried watching television.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney G. Adams
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my employer.
As if you didn't already know that....
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:12:16 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct14.135936.25883@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>Let's compare the costs and effects of voting and not voting.  These
>actions are mutually exclusive, and not doing one implies doing the
>other (they exhaust the possibilities).  Further, as we have seen in
>other articles, they are independent of other actions -- one can also
>pursue litigation or not while simultaneously voting or not voting --
>all four combinations are possible; neither voting nor not voting
>interferes with the commission or omission of other acts.  So it makes
>sense to consider just voting versus not voting.
>
>Some hypothetical person is to make a choice whether to vote or not, in
>one particular election.  I will call that person the subject.  To
>start, let us consider an election in which, according to the values of
>the subject, all available candidates are repugant, indistinguishably
>so.  More than that, even the office itself is repugnant; the powers and
>responsibilities of the office include acts the subject believes to be
>unethical.  The subject wishes no person to commit those acts, so that

How does the experimenter know what the subject wishes?

>not even a write-in candidate would be an acceptable choice.
>
>What are the costs and effects of voting in this election?  One effect
>is that a repugnant candidate is elected.  Another effect is that the
>subject's vote is counted toward some candidate, and the subject is
>counted as a voter instead of a non-voter.  A cost is the time and
>travel necessary to vote.
>
>What are the costs and effects of not voting in this election?  One
The subject would be better off communicating with actions rather
than non-actions.  This experiment is poorly designed and would
not work as a double-blind version.  You here are assuming the
the message received by the experimenter will not be, "Oh, no
word from the voter -- must not care or must consent with the
expected commission of said acts."

This is the same flaw in your other arguments and, incidentally, 
your position regarding the responsibility for communication.
You have, however, remained consistent with your contention that
the message conveyed is only what the sender intended.  This is
wrong.  That's why your contention about not voting being a useful
tool (by itself, which seems to be your current position) is also
wrong.  This is not a complicated concept.
>effect is that a repugnant candidate is elected.  Another effect is that
>When a protester votes, zero information about protesting is sent.  When
>a protester does not vote, a small amount of information greater than
>non-zero is sent.  This effect of not-voting is greater than the
>corresponding effect of voting.  We have seen that the other effects of

But these effects are not predictable by the subject, and, for all intents
and purposes, random with respect to the intentions of the sender.


GMS
From: lumensa@lub001.lamar.edu (Dale Parish)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: RG Blurb
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:19:04 +1700
Distribution: world
Organization: Lamar University - Beaumont

In article <1bjnekINNs7e@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, yaros@sab57.larc.nasa.gov
(Steve Yaros) writes:

> I need a little guidance here.  Tidewater Mensa is putting on an RG in
> February 1992.  Would it be in bad form or against rec.org.mensa
> policy to put in a publicity blurb about it now and then? 
                

A well-written, detailed RG ad would be a welcome relief from some of
the quibble here.  Yes.  And regarding the comment that none of us are
close enough to attend-- some of us do get travel occasionally, and I
*never* consider remote training without consulting the RG schedule in
the Mbull.  The company's only too glad to have me willing to go up on a
Thursday or a Friday for training the following week with what they save
on airfare.  Just wish I had a bigger training budget... 	;-)


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Bumping up the old test scores
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:24:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.081751.13357@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
>How to improve math performance on the tests.
>What specific problems do you have with math? Doing it at all, or particular
>kinds of problems?

Doing it at all. I find it very difficult to concentrate on any subject
where that isn't "like shooting fish in a barrel" for me. I guess I have
performance anxiety, of some sort. 

Thanks for all the info,

Tom.
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Ad in Air & Space
Date: 8 Oct 92 07:09:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.08Oct92030917
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

akearns@cs.ulowell.edu (Adam Kearns) writes:
>
>	Hi.  I saw an ad in Air & Space magazine (and I'm sure it's in
>others) from Mensa.  It said "Take This Instant Test To See If You're A Genius."
>and had this problem
>
>	      0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   =  1
>
>You're supposed to put in + and - signs in the correct places
>so the expression is true (the sum will equal 1.)  It also states that
>"This problem stups 45% of the Mensa members who try it.  And they all
>have IQs in the top 2% nationwide."  I looked at it, and solved it in 
>less than five minutes.  I was just wondering if:

 [Reformatted for readability]

>1) Are they exaggerating the 45% figure?

I think that is the same number given on the Mensa brochure.

>2) is there supposed to be a time limit on the problem?

It's part of a 20 minute test.  There are 5 questions on the test, so I'd
guess that you get about 4 minutes to solve this question.

>3) Does this means I'm a genius.

It's real hard to judge that from your performance on this question.  BTW,
Mensa is about 2 standard deviations above the norm, "genius" is considered
to be 4 standard deviations above the norm.  Most Mensans are not near the
"genius" level.

>4) I got       0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 - 6 - 7 + 8 - 9 = 1
>   I would also be interested in other valid answers.

Check the FAQ I post here monthly.  There is a whole section discussing answers
to this problem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Re: Ad in Air & Space
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 01:03:13 GMT

Adam Kearns writes:

>	      0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   =  1
>
>You're supposed to put in + and - signs in the correct places
>so the expression is true (the sum will equal 1.) 

Here's my answer:

              0 + 1 + 2   3 + 4 - 5 + 6   7 - 8   9   =  1

Take out the spaces:   0 + 1 + 23 + 4 - 5 + 67 - 89   =  1

-sz     (Who had the guy sitting across from her  
           in elementary school do her math homework.)
     ((The new Talking Barbie says: "Math class is HARD!"))
From: akearns@cs.ulowell.edu (Adam Kearns)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Ad in Air & Space
Summary: Thought this problem was kinda easy
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:24:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: ulowell.BvrHon.D1q
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science


	Hi.  I saw an ad in Air & Space magazine (and I'm sure it's in
others) from Mensa.  It said "Take This Instant Test To See If You're A Genius."
and had this problem

	      0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   =  1

You're supposed to put in + and - signs in the correct places
so the expression is true (the sum will equal 1.)  It also states that
"This problem stups 45% of the Mensa members who try it.  And they all
have IQs in the top 2% nationwide."  I looked at it, and solved it in 
less than five minutes.  I was just wondering if 1) they're 
exaggerating the 45% figure, 2) there is supposed to be a time limit
on the problem, or 3) this means I'm a genius.  I'm not a member, but
I was just curious to know what you people thought.  I'll put my answer below
in case I made a mistake, someone can correct me (although I'm pretty sure
it's right else I wouldn't post it all over the world).  BTW, I din't think
you were supposed to start a sentence with 'AND' .  

						Adam Kearns
						akearns@cs.ulowell.edu
						akearns@ll.mit.edu

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got       0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 - 6 - 7 + 8 - 9 = 1
0 + 1 = 1 + 2 = 3 + 3 = 6 + 4 = 10 + 5 = 15 - 6 = 9 - 7 = 2 + 8 = 10 - 9 = 1
P.S.  I would also be interested in other valid answers.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Vote for the underdog?  (was Re: Perot and trust)
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:36:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bw765n.6r4
Organization: Indiana University

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>
>>Unfortunately, no matter whether Marrou or Perot or Scott Tai
>>really would make a better president or not, a vote for them 
>>is essentially a vote for Bush. (or some fraction thereof)

crossgl@infonode.ingr.com (Gordon Cross) writes:
>
>I've never really understood the logic in this reasoning.  What we have here
>is a self-fulfilling prophesy.  We need to convence people that voting for a
>third party is *not* a wasted vote.  

You're talking about an ideal system, not one skewed by the influence
of the media and by the historical failure of third candidates.
Perhaps we *do* need to convince people to vote for the person they
want the most, but this November I certainly won't vote for someone I 
know can't win under the current voting structure.  That's why I was
so taken with the idea of the approval ballot.

But, there still remains the problem of how to rationalize voting
for someone who clearly won't win under the current system.  I know
that many people who suppport third party candidates and independants
feel very strongly about showing their support for them.  I also know
that some people in America today feel very strongly about ousting
Bush but don't have specific affiliations with any other candidate.
Since my bias will eventually show through, I'll say right now that
I'm one of those people.  I know that if I vote for a more obscure
candidate, I may get screwed because Bush might win.  My only option
is to vote for Clinton.

So, how do we remove the advantage of the two major parties in two 
weeks?  I don't see it happening, so I'm going to vote for someone
for whom I don't dance with joy.  

>The evils I see coming are -
> [the beginning of a thread on platforms]

Ack.  This could go on forever (or at least until November), and it
detracts from the original question, posed as an intellectual problem.
I don't wanna talk about it, so I'll go hide now. . .

-sz  (who liked tonight's Presidential debate format muchly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: A note to Scott Tai
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:31:21 GMT

"Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA> writes:
>Scott:
>
>If you have been keeping up with the homosexuality/bisexuality discussion,
>you have seen that not one response from a Mensan criticized homosexuals,
>with many openly defending this group of individuals who are typically
>maligned even worse than ethnic and racial minorities.  Are these Mensans 
>the bigots that you make them out to be?  I think not.  Rather, they have
>shown themselves to be a socially-conscious group that willingly defends
>the rights of others.  Think about it, Scott.

Really, Rodney. You have no right to abuse this group with this sort of
attitude. Frankly, we should lock you up and shoot you, in either order.
Free speech can be abused, you know. I'm going to write a letter to my
congressman to have this group removed from the net for allowing such views
to be promulgated. Lord, my 8-year-old might read it. You should be ashamed
of yourself.

-ec "M.F.Righteous" sd
From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Boycotting the Vote
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 11:38:00 -0500

 ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) wonders:

 KSD> I just heard someone campaigning for people to boycott the vote
 KSD> in order to show people in government that we don't support them.
 KSD> He argues that this is the most effective way to "fix" this 
 KSD> country (USA, I'm sorry for my *centrism), because the government 
 KSD> will eventually come crashing down around their ears.

 KSD> Does anyone care to explain by what sort of logic this would work?

None at all.  A protest non-vote is completely indistinguishable from an apathy
non-vote.  If they want to show lack of support, they could write in "None of
the Above".


From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Is this line thing silly?
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1992 10:17:44 -0500

jimt@carson.u.washington.edu (James Thompson) writes:

 JT> Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org [...] writes:

 DA> we need silliness once in a while.  Or twice.

 JT> Ah, but does "once" in a while actually take up any time, or is it
 JT> instantaneous, and therefore dimensionless?

No, just demented.  And yes, my radio is fully wound up.

From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: t// Re: Meaning of Intelligence
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 10:09:34 -0500

mechalas@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (John P. Mechalas) writes:

 JPM> The difference is, some people may not recognize what 
 JPM> "Tai" is posting as
 JPM> *being* a loaded gun.  Let's face it...not everyone 
 JPM> knows unix.

They should certainly be able to recognize that some command containing the
string "tai sucks" is intended to at least ridicule him in a childish way.  If
they then proceed without knowing what they're doing, they deserve what they get
just as much as some fool who plays with a loaded gun.


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: dan@BofA.com (Dan Brockman)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Organization: Bank of America, Capital Products, RMTG #5906
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 01:03:17 GMT

In article <y=ppwx+@lynx.unm.edu> mdiehl@triton.unm.edu (J. Michael Diehl) writes:
>
>This will be my first time voting.  I am 24.  Untill now I haven't seen a
>candidate worth voting for.  Voting for someone implies advocacy, which I 
>wasn't prepared to give.  Then it was brought to my attention that by not
>voting, I relinquish all my rights to complain.  If I don't "go with the
>system," what gives me the right to complain about it?  So I decided to 
>vote....for myself.  I was going to write myself in on the ballot.  I
>assumed one could do this.  This was my form of protest about how this

Voting for someone does not imply advocacy.  If I have noone to vote _FOR_
then I consider it my civic responsibility to vote _AGAINST_ someone.  In 
those races where I know none of the candidates, I always vote against the
incumbent.  In those races where I think I know something, I still vote 
against somebody quite often.  Sometimes though, it is possible to vote
for the lesser of two evils.  This is not an advocacy of evil, but a 
difficult choice made under conditions of despair.  Always vote.  The vote
is the greatest political invention since gunpowder and usually makes for
a pretty good substitute.  Peace.

-- 
 --------------------------------------------------------------
 Daniel Brockman             tel 415-953-0406, fax 415-622-2892
 Bank of America, Dept 5906, 555 Calif St
 San Francisco 94104 USA    email uunet!odinba!dan dan@BofA.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:14:25 GMT

>(Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>|>
>|>I just heard someone campaigning for people to boycott the vote
>|>in order to show people in government that we don't support them.
>|>He argues that this is the most effective way to "fix" this 
>|>country (USA, I'm sorry for my *centrism), because the government 
>|>will eventually come crashing down around their ears.
>|>
>|>Does anyone care to explain by what sort of logic this would work?


sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson) writes:
>              
>I think that it's the lazy way of protesting bad government.  Rather than
>trying to understand and then trying to fix the problem, the people promoting
>this just say "Don't vote - that'll show 'em."  I'd rather try to fix the 
>system than try to recontruct one in the middle of chaos (which will what the 
>world will be if the USA's government actually collapses).  

The problem I see in the argument is that the government 
*wouldn't* collapse if we abstained from voting; it would
just make it easier for those in power to do whatever they
want.  If I didn't vote, I can see the government getting
stronger and stronger (note: not better and better), taking
away more and more of my rights.  I don't see how that kind
of a government would *ever* collapse, aside from a violent
coup d'etat.  In the meantime, life would get progressively
worse. . .nothing good on the side of not voting.

Is there no one out there who can divine this guy's logic?

-sz
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa