From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Western Boxing, how 'imprecise' is it ?
Summary: Karate more _precise_ than boxing  --  how so ?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 27 AUG 92 09:15:31    


hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes...
> 
ts>>punches a day, that's almost all they do in a day.  Do you really think they 
ts>>can't anticipate and pinpoint a moving target precisely and need to throw 
ts>>to the chest to hit the head ?   That advice might be used in certain 
ts>>situations, but using it to show the imprecision of the art isn't fair,
ts>>I think.
>>
ph>I'd also thought that this was pretty much the advice Holyfield's corner
ph>(Lou Duva, wasn't it?) gave him in his fight against Buster Douglas.  The
ph>particular context in which the technique was to be thrown was when Buster
ph>threw a lead uppercut.  I saw Duva, or whoever it was, talking about this
ph>on TV.  But again, I may have misinterpreted what was said.

Sigh.  I tried twice to make a distinction between specific corner advice for 
a particular situation, and generalizations about the entire art and science
behind boxing in general, to help discuss the notion of imprecision, at it
applies to boxing.

Maybe it's too subtle a point to be useful or interesting, but that's what
my intention was.   Let me try a different tack, before bowing out.

"Western Pro Boxing training develops as much precision or
more, as far as being able to consistently and repeatedly hit targets with 
speed and power, as any martial art system ever devised."

That is my contention, and my definition of precision.

>Anyway, 'imprecise' was ill-chosen, and probably came across as a lot
>snottier than I had intended.  But, no, I don't think that boxers can,
>in any situation this side of a gross mismatch "anticipate and pinpoint
>a moving target precisely", at least with any regularity.  

Clearly, above you're talking about one person's skill to target vs. another
one's skill to evade, more than an intrinsic characteristic of techniques.
I'm talking about comparing the inherent 'precision' cultivated by the art
to any other training you'd like to name.   If it is imprecise, then you
must have a relative measure, something more precise to compare it with ?

What I'd really like to hear, is your idea of a martial artist who is
MORE precise than, say, a middleweight or welterweight pro contender.
Then, I'd like to see your impressions after that artist works a few
minutes with the contender.  I'd want to know if you felt any differently
about their relative ability to hit a target.  A good boxing evasion 
working against a good boxing punch doesn't prove that the art or training
system is imprecise.  We may be using imprecise differently, of course,
so I've defined my meaning more rigorously above.

Overall, it's just really odd to hear someone tell me that they think a pug 
can't hit what they aim for !  I guess we come from very different worlds.

>If they
>could, fights would never reach the second round.  Half the time, they
>don't even land the jab to the head, right?  

Assuming that were the case, is that worse than some other martial arts
technique's landing rate ?  How are you using this to support your argument
that boxing is _imprecise_ ?

>At any rate, the apparent similarity of between the advice given by boxing
>coaches and by karate teachers struck me.  And I certainly wouldn't
>call karate imprecise.

Ok, so I've pinned you down to 'boxing is imprecise and karate is more
precise.'  At least we have a comparator or standard now.

There have been a few karate folks who worked against pro boxers.
A few who didn't think they were 'too deadly' to step into the ring and
actually try to hit something with power besides a standing post or a 
heavy bag or an air shield, and have it actually hitting back with power.

I'd be interested to hear any quotes from any of them about how imprecisely
they think their opponents targeted them.   Every such match I've seen left
the karate guys looking foolish and awkward.   Not more precise, at all.
Even those where they had some real skill and gave the boxer a decent fight,
they certainly didn't seem to walk away unscathed from the imprecision
of the pugilist.

Or maybe we've just reached a point of impasse and comparing subjective 
impressions ?

						kind regards,

							todd