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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      War and Peace - Sonya

I would like to address the comment made about Sonya in War and Peace. Her
role in the story always puzzled me. I don't understand why Rostov was not
loyal to her and whether he really loved her or not. If she had had money,
would he have married her instead of the Princess? Was her dependence
unattractive to him? I felt sorry for her. And Natasha also seemed careless
towards her.
    This may not be relevant, but wasn't there a significant Sonya in the life
of Tolstoy? Wasn't that his wife's name? Didn't he die on the road running
away from her as an old man? Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

    By the way, I am so glad everyone is discussing these wonderful Russian boo
ks.  I have read all the Tolstoy and Dosteovsky I could find, and I have never
found anyone to discuss them with.  I work and don't have time to enroll in a c
lass.  This is great.

Has anyone read "Notes from the Underground" by Dosteovsky?

Melanie
Springfield, Illinois

Statistics & Research Consulting
782-4418
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 11:43:56 EST
From:         LBH <helfrich@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          I would also love to discuss any poetry, preferably 20th
          century British, Irish,and American--Auden, Larkin, Yeats,
          Eliot, Roethke, Lowell, Heaney, Montague, Stevens, Williams,
          Hecht, Wilbur, etc.  Would you like to start the discussion?
          The good thing is that lots of people can join in about a
          small poem because we can all go read it rather quickly--as
          opposed to a novel.

          --Dave


     **************
     Well, Dave, what'll be?  Since I have Yeats with me today, should it
     be something of his?  What about "When You Are Old"?  Too simple?  I
     like Wilbur a lot, too.  What would you life to discuss with him?
     And Williams, Eliot, and Auden, too.  Come on, Dave.  Be bold.  Make
     that first step.

     Laura
     (stuck pasting up figures...)
     helfrich@siam.org
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:40:27 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Ibsen

>As a Joycean, i thank divinity that Joyce was fond of Ibsen rather than
>Chekhov, who everyone tells me is great but bores me to tears.
>M McDonald

  I'm not a Joycean, and I do like Chekhov, but I must admit that
I much prefer Ibsen.  Of all the tragic drama I am familiar with,
I find Ibsen's the most compelling, and the most frightening.
Frightening in the sense that tragedy seems to unfold from normal
people acting in normal ways in normal situations.

                               -Tim
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:06:56 EDT
From:         steve fahringer <sbf2v@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

"Be bold. Be not too bold."
               Edmund Spenser
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:51:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Stephen Jay Gould

re Gould and the generic "man":  I'm pretty sure Gould specifically commented
on this, and that he said that he used it because the majority of the people who
did the measuring were at least subconciously trying to exclude women.  Don't
take Gould for granted:  he'll usually be ahead of you.
-Ian
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:00:00 EST
From:         ROBERT77@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: random shuffling

Well..... from what I understand, the person who gets the sentences is
*not* allowed to look at the previous sentences. If this is the case,
it would be a simple thing to do. You would simply designate an "editor"
to which to send all the sentences and he would simply keep track of the order
in which they came until he had them all and published them...
Although what the point is, I'm still not quite certain. I mean, the "story"
would be totally unstructured, names would have no meaning, it would be
madness! I've always done it where one would tell the next the sentence then he
would tell the next both sentences....

but who am I to argue?
kmr...
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Posted-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 18:28:29 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:28:29 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Subject: 'the scarlet letter
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Eric, I think that probably it is taught as you say because it has already
been taught, I mean always, and sorry to say, because it seems to be so
moral. A good way to teach it now would be to demonstrate how ambiguous
the morality is, to show how Hawthorne is aware of the value and possi-
bilities inherent in an"immoral" choice.  It is a far more feminist work
than students realize, and is far more subversive of conventional morality
than schools would like.  It's a shame they use it the way they do. Michael B.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:40:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhshu
              titoff!

shutitoffpleasejustshutitoff
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:40:00 EST
From:         ROBERT77@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: random shuffling

ok.... well let us see...

My current suggestion is thus:
1) We can do one in public.... (but how will we organize what line goes where?
I'm sure that not all mail arrives everyplace at the same time...)

2) We do one in private... I have just as many entries as the other person,
quite possibly the same ones. I don't care who does what. Just let me know...


as for those who want to jump in.... go right ahead...
I'm (at least right now) taking lines in the order in which they come but
through private mail so we can see the outcome...

kmr...
kmrobert@snybufva.cs.snybuf.edu
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:49:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ubject: Dostoyevsky

Hitler was both brilliant and anti-Semitic, so why not Dostoyevsky?  Even
so, I'm not quite ready to cede your point.  What evidence do you find in
D's *work* for some anti-Semitism which would be more marked than the
anti-Semitism which would practically be *part* of being a 19th century
Russian?

MBMcDonald
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:28:02 CST
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From:         Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject:      Levin once more

Michael B. and Tim,

I am really enjoying your discussion.  I print it out and take it home to read
every night.  Keep it up please.
Melanie

Statistics & Research Consulting
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:09:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Character of Levin.

Beautifully said, naomi, thank you.

M McDonald
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:15:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      further dead fish digressions (sounds like a Richard Brautigan
              title)

        Perhaps the resolution of the Hitler debate (was he really a brain-
dead fish? [true or not, a lovely analogy; my compliments to whoever it was
who came up with it]) lies in agreeing that intelligence is not one mono-
lithic element.  Someone can be brilliant in one or more fields but a
total whacko in other ways.  It seems pretty straightforward.
        If anyone is interested in an excellent discussion on intelligence,
"intelligence", and human nature, I strongly recommend Stephen Jay Gould's
book, _The Mismeasure of Man_.  (For that matter, I recommend all of his
other essays and collections thereof as well.)
        -Ian
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:42:56 EDT
From:         "Melissa A. Johnson" <MELISSAJ@PUCC.BITNET>
Subject:      Russian/Soviet writers

I've been enjoying reading the exchanges on Russian writers, but personally
I've always enjoyed some of the later, Soviet, writers.  High on my list is
Mikail Bulgakov.  I especially enjoyed "The Master and Margarita"...thought
that it was amazing stuff!  It was like nothing I'd ever read before--I read
it for a 20th Century Russian/Soviet literature course during my undergraduate
years.  Has anyone else read this?  Or anything else by Bulgakov?  "White Snow"
?

Melissa
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:55:48 EST
From:         LBH <helfrich@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Turgenev
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

     Someone on the list mentioned enjoying Turgenev.  Have you read _A
     Friendship in Letters:  Flaubert & Turgenev_?  It's an interesting
     look into the minds of two brilliant writers.  The letters are edited
     and translated by Barbara Beaumont.  If you enjoy reading either
     author, I think you'll enjoy the correspondence between these two.

     Laura
     helfrich@siam.org
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:21:00 -0600
From:         G_PEREZ@UTPB.BITNET
Subject:      Discussions about Literature

Unsubscribe from Discussions about literature.  The name is G_perez.
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:29:55 EDT
From:         Ross Daniels <YA794C@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: No Subject
              22 Jul 1992 10:09:47 CST from
              <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>

Theoretically, those who are the most holy decay the least quickly.  Dostoevsky
 attempted to portray the monk as the antithesis of what he was actually suppos
ed to be: pious, holy, and pure.  The fact that he decayed/ became abnormally o
diferous so quickly after his death is a testament to his lack of piety.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:03:09 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Year's End
Comments: To: helfrich@SIAM.ORG, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          He read at Bryn Mawr after he won the Pulitzer in '89.  I
          also heard him read from his translations of Moliere at
          Philadelphia's City Hall (of all places).
From: stalling@milton.u.washington.edu (Mike Stallings)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Brautigan's Hugecide
Keywords: Richard Brautigan, Suicide, Flower-Children
Date: 25 Jul 92 06:10:05 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

I felt cheated, or let down, or something, when I heard he killed himself.

I read at the time that he was in the grip of alcoholism at the time and was
terminally depressed.  Like really ugly alcoholism, the kind that drives
everyone away.

I don't think, taking the long view, that his writing was truly "great." In
fact, it might be incomprehensible to my children today. I don't know.  What
I do know is that it was magic writing at a magic time. It expressed that
beautiful and contradictory air of self-centered selflessnes that infused that
time.

.....Mike Stallings.....stalling@u.washington.edu
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:40:55 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: spoiling ...
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> From:       MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:    spoiling Ann Karenina

>   One of the defining characteristics of novels as remarkably,
> implausibly, good as _Anna Karenina_ is that their greatness does not
> lie primarily in their stories conceived as plot. You can't spoil a
> book like that by "giving away its ending".

Maybe, maybe... but about a year ago I read _Madame Bovary_, and
amazingly enough, I had never heard how it turned out (or if it did,
I forgot).  I would maintain that my suspense was a key factor in my
enjoyment of the book.
                                        --Tom

-----------------------------------------------
Tom Frenkel
Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center
161 Ft. Washington Ave.     DAP-1310
New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of
      my employer >>>
-----------------------------------------------
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:43:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: books for freshman writing

Michael, thanks for the recommendation.  I agree that freshman writing could
well do without textbooks of any sort, but will be teaching in a program that
requires a reader, at the very least.  I am, however, thinking of supplementing
the reader with a *book* or two, and thus my initial inquiry (unless someone
has a better idea, i will probably settle on Mary Catherine Bateson's most
wonderful *Composing a Life*.

M McDonald

p.s. What does your middle initial stand for?  I too am MBM (Michael Bruce)
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:58:39 -0500
From:         Eric Baum <PBR_EVB@FANDMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: worthwhile reading?

Doris,

It's been a bit since I've read _Sarum_, so take my memory with a grain of
salt. The beginning of the book is rather plodding, but it did catch my
attention and make for the cliched "good read". I particularly remember the
sections on the Dark Ages and the construction of the cathedral, which were
well written and interesting in a Michener, pop-novel fashion. I _do_ have
to admit to completely losing interest in the modern age, and don't recall
if I even finished the book.

As a side note, this seems to be Rutherfurd's style. I was given his second
book, _Russia_, which treats the history of Russia in the same fashion (I
guess Michener did leave a few places unexplored). It is exactly the same
as _Sarum_; the pre-history introduction is deadly dull and, in fact, I put
it aside before too long. Recently, I picked it up again for some unknown
reason and discovered it progressing the same way as _Sarum_: plodding
pre-history, interesting Dark Ages. It remains to be seen if it falls apart
in the modern age.

Eric
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:22:00 CDT
From:         Bernie Asher <BA01@SWTEXAS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Hitler as a Brain-Dead Fish - a digression

Yes, a digression, indeed, so I will try to be brief.

Tempting as it is, it is dangerous, IMHO, to dismiss Hitler's
cruel, insensitive, and psychotic behavior as lack of intelligence.
He adeptly used German culture to create the orderly structure
he needed to dominate the country.  I'm specifically thinking of a recent
documentary on the Arts and Entertainment cable channel which examined his
use of architecture in schools, office buildings, arenas, etc. to squelch
individuality and create a focal point for himself above all others.

Bernie
------
ba01@swtexas.bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:06:44 EDT
From:         Ahmed Farah 4883555 ext 249 <AAIT01@SAKACS00.BITNET>

subject: Fanon on anticolonialism

One of the thirdworld's outspoken critic on colonial domination is Franz Fanon.
Hailing from the Martinique, he wrote a number of outstanding books on the
subject. For instance in his 'wretched of the Earth' he trashes out the
colonial administrators' subterfuge agianst innocent civilians in Algeria and
how Young Algerian rebels are submitted under strenuous torture techniques
even banished to psychiatric hospitalssipmly because the opposed French
domination in their countries, lots of people suffered lunacy under such
nefast colonial schemes. Fanon debunks all these through his writings
In his book ' blach skin white mask' he discusses neocolonialism in newly
independent countries and the status quo ante continued even after erstwhile
colonizers' because new regimes followed courses charted out by excoloniers'
intact without any change
All told Fanon is a salient scholar dear in the heart of all oppresed people
and shall remain an idol and his books are magnum opuses ro rather reference
bibles on anticolonialism and a byword of emancipation to all peace loving
people in the world
Virtually
Ahmed Farah
BASM?KACST box 6086
Riyadh 11442
Saudi Arabia
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Posted-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:28:24 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:28:24 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Hitler
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Relax, please. I have a blood pressure problem.

Sigmund Freud.
From: helfrich@SIAM.ORG (LBH)
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Subject: Re: Hester's Murder
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:46:09 GMT
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     Not being a product of public high school, my required reading list
     may be very different from those who did attend public school.  I did
     have one year of public school, during which we read two novels.
     _Great Expectations_ and _Flowers for Algernon_.  Yes, we did spend
     two semesters on each.  We also spent time on grammar.  Lots of time
     on grammar.

     In private school, we had freshman and sophomore English.  After
     that, we were allowed to choose more specialized courses.  Required
     reading for the soph. English class was _Antigone_, _As You Like It_,
     _Hamlet_, _The Moon is Down_, and others I cannot recall.  We did a
     large section of poetry as well.

     Having the opportunity to choose during the last two years provided
     variety.  American Novelists featured _East of Eden_ and Ordinary
     People_.  The Comic View featured _Lucky Jim_, _A Midsummer's
     Night's Dream_, and _The Odyssey_.  South African Lit featured _Cry,
     the Beloved Country_ and _Too Late, the Phalarope_.  You get the
     idea.

     I agree with Susan about not teaching a book if the teacher feels all
     its subject matter cannot be adequately covered.  Just because it is
     "traditional" to read _The Scarlet Letter_ in high school doesn't
     mean that it should be done.  (It was not required reading in any of
     the classes I took in high school; I did not read it for a class
     until I was in college.)  The same can be said of other books that
     have recently appeared on this list.  _Moby Dick_ springs immediately
     to mind.  Like Susan, I had a bad experience with a teacher on that
     one, and it wasn't until a few years ago that I picked it up again.
     Reading the classics is important, but perhaps they need to be
     approach in nontraditional ways.

     IMHO
     Laura
     helfrich@siam.org
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Posted-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 13:04:08 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:04:08 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Akhmatova story
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Thanks for the information; that rings exactly true.  Michael B. What a memory.
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:13:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: further dead fish digressions (sounds like a Richard
              Brautigan title)

Does "zah-zah" mean good?

Thanks for the tip on SB Heath (and say, would *that* book be good in a
freshman writing class?  As i'm sure you've inferred, i'm desperately seeking
some new approaches for freshman writing.)

M McDonald
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Posted-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 13:02:34 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:02:34 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Melanie
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Tim, are we being mocked? Funny with email how messages possible quite innocent
can be construed by the paranoid mind as viciously sarcastic. WE KNOW WHAT
YOU REALLY MEAN, MELANIE!! WE ARE NOT TAKEN IN!! Coffee must be taking effect.
I sense we are on the verge of the discussion of poetry, which will be ex-
tremely interesting because we (especially I) won't have to rely on memory.
We'll tend to deal more with the work itself. Like a lot of you, I can think
of many good short poems which would be easy to type onto the list. Michael B.
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