From: blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: What is culture? (was: Brainwashied
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:30:47 GMT
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.


=> In article <7577@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@hri.com 
=> (Bill Lambert - that's me) writes:
=> >Now I know you revile the religious practices of the ancient Mayans,
=> >but they sacrificed some so that the Gods would not take the many.
=> >In fact, when the conquistadors forced them to cease this barbaric
=> >practice, shortly thereafter the european viral strains wiped out
=> >their entire population. Had they continued the sacrifices (and
=> >managed to rips the hearts out of quite a few of the Spanish soldiers
=> >as well) the Gods may have treated them quite more favorably.

In article <2599@usna.NAVY.MIL>, wdw@math2.sma.usna.navy.MIL 
(Wm. Douglas Withers -- math  FACULTY <wdw@sma.usna.navy.mil>) writes:
=> Is this supposed to be a joke or not?  I have the uneasy feeling that if
=> I take issue with you here, you'll accuse me of having no sense of humor.
=> On the other hand I don't see any smileys here.

Partially a joke, and partially not. The point I was trying to make
is that no matter how vehement one may be in their definitions
of relative morality, it is quite another trick to convince someone
with a different morality base as to the veracity of your claim.
I stated this in the paragraphs below. How would you convince the
last Mayan - lying on his deathbed gasping for air in the throes
of viral pneumonia - that it was correct to stop human sacrifice.
I was interested in how the writer was going to make his claim
that human sacrifice should be abandoned.

=> >Well... we think this is stupid, of course, but who is to say that
=> >the ancient Mayans aren't sitting in Mayan heaven right now laughing
=> >because the World Wars were caused by the Gods because of the lack
=> >of an outlet for our bloodlust.
=> >
=> >Stupid again, of course, but I'm just taking on the Mayan cultural
=> >biases, to argue points that can't be argued by any common means.

=> I'm not sure what your point is here.  This reminds me of those folks who
=> say:  "Why should I learn your white-male-dominated trigonometry, when I
=> know that crystals hold all the secrets of the universe?"  Are you in fact
=> denying the existence of objective reality, denying for example that the
=> link between human sacrifice and disease is testable by experiment?
=> 
=> If you claim that it is impossible to judge human sacrifice as wrong, then
=> surely it is impossible to judge the act of criticizing other cultures as
=> wrong.

I never denied the existance of objective reality. I merely asked for
the objects that define that reality. OK... if we practice "safe-
sacrifice", will it then be OK to have human sacrifice as long as
it doesn't make other people sick? I don't claim that it is impossible
to judge human sacrifice as wrong... I just haven't seen anything other 
than what might be termed as expressed personal likes or dislikes....
just statements that human sacrifice, female circumcision, infanticide,
Nazis, etc., are wrong, but no justification at all as to *why* they
are wrong.

To return to the original thread, "if you can't justify cultural or
human reasons why something even as barbaric as human sacrifice 
should be outlawed by other than stating it in the format of personal
preference, then how are you going to convince someone who may be
racist some basis why that racism may be undesirable?"

=> >I believe American culture
=> >is in the process of redefining itself, and it needs it. The dream
=> >of America is in the process of being fulfilled for everybody,
=> >not just white males. We've come a long way, and still have a long
=> >way to go... but still moving in the right general direction.

=> I expect that those people (for example, some Japanese government officials)
=> who think that America is being held back by minorities will be much less
=> smug fifty years from now.

I agree. If nothing else, racism and sexism have wasted much energy
and much human potential... an answer that will get you partial
credit on the above quiz :-)

These are weighty philosophical questions, surely, and as such will
defy definitive answers that might satisfy everyone. But in my view,
some attempt at that answer must be made in order to cross cultural
lines and eons of seperated history and cultural artifact. Without
out such explanations or justifications, you'd might as well be
pissing in the wind, or your only recourse is a form counter racism
as espoused by some netters responding to this thread, particularly
the person who started it. I don't believe that that will really work
either, and in the long run is counter productive. The last thing
anyone will swallow is their own faults being rammed down their
throats. They have to eat them by themselves.

- Bill Lambert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan