HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: loucks@isrc.sandia.gov (Cliff Loucks)
Subject: Re: Celestial Seasonings Classic
Organization: Sandia National Labs, Org. 1600, Albq., NM
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:33:18 GMT

From article <1992Aug27.161420.9017@terminator.cc.umich.edu>, by ggood@css.itd.umich.edu (Gordon Good):
> That would be Laura Charameda.  I had the pleasure of seeing her race in
> the Pro/I/II race in the Lansing, MI stage of the Tour de Michigan.

Oh yea?  Well that's nothing. :-)  

I had the pleasure of riding against her last year in the Tour of
Michigan.  She was lumped in with the 35+ masters.  She did quite well,
even winning a pack sprint in one stage.  Unfortunately, Tom Schuler
was also riding with (make that against) us; he won the pickup truck
when all was said and done.

Can you imagine what the 30+ masters fields would be like if they
were pro/am events?  

Cliff
-- 

Cliff Loucks  <=>  loucks@isrc.sandia.gov
Sandia National Labs, Albuquerque, New Mexico
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: ampe@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.e.ampe)
Subject: Re: Length of Races in the U.S.:  Too Short?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:04:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.161346.29740@tamsun.tamu.edu> ks@stat.tamu.edu (Kurt F. Sauer) writes:
>Item B22a:  Amend Rules 4B1 and 4B2:
>	4B1:  Change the maximum duration of racing from 6 to 10 days
>	      except for National Tour events whose maximum length would
>	      change from 12 to 20 days.  Rest days are not included in
>	      the count of competition days.
>
>	4B2:  Prologue individual time trials, if used, are included in

Yes!  While we're at it, why not just remove these rules altogether?
I can't see any purpose in them.  If people want to get to gether and
race 200 miles a day for 30 days, why not let them?

Another problem with these rules is that they discriminate against
women.  I hear a lot of whining here on the net and in VeloNews that
the UCI won't sanction real races for women.  But if you examine the
rules under 4B3 and 4B5 pertaining to women, they are equally
pathetic.  Fortunately, the USCF at least has the good sense to ignore
its own rules.  The Ore-Ida race is in violation of almost every rule
under section 4B, yet gets sanctioned anyway.  So given that these
rules are not even followed, why not remove them?

Please also consider removing the sexual differences in section M5.
If I were a woman I would be extremely insulted that the longest
women's race allowed for the national championships is 110km, while
the shortest race permissible for the men is 160km!  Can you imagine
if women entering the Boston marathon were only allowed to run 15
miles?  Or if women competing in the Ironman were only allowed to do
half the distance?  I think it's about time the USCF entered the
1990's!

>Item B31:  A set of alternatives to amend Bylaw J, Section 6:
>	(1)  Individual road races at least 100km long for men or
>	70km long for women and minimum field size of 60 men or 25 women.

I much preferred the idea proposed a while ago of making the points
scale a function of the number of entrants in the race.

John_Ampe@att.com
From: garrick@owlnet.rice.edu (Garrick F. Mitchell)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: SCCCC: Rice Cycling Prelim. race announcement
Date: 26 Aug 1992 22:04:39 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Rice University Cycling Team


	The Rice University Cycling Team will conduct the
second ever "Short Circuit" crit / circuit race / whatever in 
Tom Bass Park south of Houston on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1992.  This
will be a timed event, with C's doing 30 minutes starting at
8:30 a.m., and so on.  Race announcements will be mailed soon...

	Unfortunately, I haven't been able to contact Kathy Volski
in order to get the mailing list.  I doubt there even IS a complete
list at the moment, anyway.

	The purpose of this announcement is to see if any other
non-Rice SCCCC people (or maybe even club presidents!) are paying
attention in Netland.  Our event is coming up mighty quick, so I'd
like to make contact with the other teams ASAP.

	If you are a member of a team in the South Central Conference,
please make contact with your team President and e-mail me an address
for your team.

	I'll re-post in a week or so...I'm not sure if the Distribution
feature of my News Admin is working just right.


Thanks in advance,

Garrick Mitchell
President, Rice U. Cycling Team
garrick@owlnet.rice.edu
From: harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Cornering tactic- legal or not ?
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:36:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

jr29@prism.gatech.EDU (ROSS,JOHN B) writes:
: I made the corner ahead of them, braked briefly, and sprinted
: out, ahead of eveyone.
: 
: Would anyone who knows care to comment on
: the legality or advisibility of my tactic ?

Your move was completely legal, and appropriate.  The other riders
should have expected someone to try it.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
From: gemmell@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Gemmell)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Races near Chicago in 9/5 - 9/7?
Date: 25 Aug 1992 17:26:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: whistle.berkeley.edu

Does anyone know of any UCSF
races taking place in the Chicago
area over the  Labor day weekend (Sept 5 - 7)?

Thanks,
From: weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver)
Subject: Re: Lance A. Wins Trittico Veneto (Details Please
Organization: SPS
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:13:00 GMT


Here's the Motorola Corporate Report (not much detail):


************************************************************
RACE:       Trittico Premundiale
 
MOTOROLA    Norm Alvis, Lance Armstrong, Thomas Bay, Ron Kiefel, Andy
RIDERS:     Hampsten, Steve Larsen, Max Sciandri, Jan Schur, Urs Zimmermann
 
DATE:       September 2, 1992
EVENT:      Trittico Premundiale
LOCATION:   Italy
DISTANCE:   kilometers
 
 
RESULTS:
 
Day 1
 
1st  Dmitri Pulnikov   Carrera    CIS
2nd  Robert Millar     TVM        GB
6th  Armstrong         MOTOROLA   USA
     12th    Larsen
 
* No other placings communicated
 

Day 2
 
1st LANCE ARMSTRONG    MOTOROLA    USA
2nd Fabio Casartalli   Gatotade    Italy
3rd Davide Cassani     Ariostea    Italy
 
* Only Motorola finisher, all other riders failed to finish
 
 
 
COMMENTS (Paul Sherwen reporting):
 
Armstrong does it again!! Motorola's newest professional,Lance Armstrong, had 
another brilliant performance yesterday in Italy after his excellent 2nd place 
in the last round of the World Cup in Zurich, Switzerland last weekend. He was 
1st over the line ahead of a star-studded group of nine riders in a race which 
had seen many riders fail to finish in the extremely hot conditions.
 
This three days of racing is used, as its title indicates, as a final
preparation for the World Championships every year by the Italian National
squad. It always provides three extremely competitive days of racing with all
the contenders having a final try out before the World title event, which
takes place next Sunday in Benidorm, Spain.
 
It is expected that Motorola will have about ten riders at the event
representing their respective nations. That is to say Australia (Anderson),
Belgium (Dernies), Denmark (Bay), Norway (Lauritzen and Stenersen), Canada
(Bauer and Walton), the United States (Hamsten, Bishop and possibly Armstrong) 
and possibly Germany (Schur). The final list of selected riders will not be 
known until the end of the week.



THESE RESULTS ARE PROVIDED BY THE CORPORATE ADVERTISING DEPT. 
************************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: jake@opus.csd.uwm.edu (Joel D. Jacobson)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Hotter'N Hell Hundred Cat 3
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:13:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: uwm.1992Sep3.161312.15714
Reply-To: jake@opus.csd.uwm.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Originator: jake@opus.csd.uwm.edu

marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:
> When you've seen enough crashes...
> 
> My motto is: 'Just Say No To Crits'. Useless bloody races. Give me a real 
> road race any day.

which leads me to the inevitable question:  how many road races do
you guys have down there?  around here (WI, IL area), we only get
about 1 a month or so, everything else is a crit...  take what you
can get, i suppose...  [this of course, doesnt include superweek,
which has EVERYTHING EVERYDAY for 2.5 weeks.  heh.  plug plug.]
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver)
Subject: Re: Tour of Holland: please post last two stages!
Originator: root@mogate.sps.mot.com
Organization: SPS
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:03:06 GMT


This report is from Motorola corporate advertising...


************************************************************
RACE:       Tour of Holland (17-22 July)
 
MOTOROLA    Andy Bishop, Norm Alvis, Dag Otto Lauritzen, Steve Larsen
RIDERS:     Bjorn Stenersen, Brian Walton, Sean Yates
 
EVENT:      Stage 5 & 6
LOCATION:   Tilburg- Heythuysen, Heythuysen-Gulpen
DISTANCE:   168 & 176 kilometers
 
COMMENTS (Paul Sherwen reporting):
 
Sean Yates began the final stage in 7th place overall. He attacked at every 
opportunity to try and take the final overall, however Jelle Nijdam's Buckler 
team controlled all the  attacks and the Dutchman who had been leader since the
first day ran out winner overall.
 

RESULTS:  Stage 5
1st Rob Harmeling   TVM       Holland       4hr 21'39"
2nd Peter Pieters   Tulip     Holland            @ 01"
3rd Johann Capiot   TVM       Belgium             s.t.
    28th    Bishop       s.t.
    30th    Alvis        s.t.
    36th    Yates        s.t.
    52nd    Lauritzen    s.t.
    55th    Stenersen    s.t.
    66th    Larsen       s.t.

Stage 6
1st Gerard Rue         Castorama    France   4hr 31'55"
2nd Andrea Ferrigato   Zg           Italy         @ 05"
3rd Marco Lietti       Ariostea     Italy          s.t.
     4th   Yates       s.t.
     9th   Lauritzen   @ 08"
    17th   Larsen      s.t.

Overall Standings
1st Jelle Nijdam       Buckler      Holland    20hr 36'31"
2nd Thierry Marie      Castorama    France           @ 43"
3rd Laurent Bezault    Z            France           @ 55"
     4th    Yates       @ 1'17"
    14th    Alvis       @ 2'21"
    18th    Lauritzen   @ 2'37"
    20th    Bishop      @ 3'06"
    23rd    Larsen      @ 3'31"
            * Only places communicated


THESE RESULTS ARE PROVIDED BY THE CORPORATE ADVERTISING DEPT.
************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: ggood@css.itd.umich.edu (Gordon Good)
Subject: Re: Celestial Seasonings Classic
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:14:20 GMT

In article <Aug25.213844.40440@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> sutton@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Rich Sutton) writes:

>The women's race had a 2 rider break for several laps. Eve Stevinson
>and the Natl. Women's criterium champ hung on til the end. The Crit
>champ jumped at the bottom of the wall and took the stage. Sorry I don't
>have the name.

That would be Laura Charameda.  I had the pleasure of seeing her race in
the Pro/I/II race in the Lansing, MI stage of the Tour de Michigan.  She
stayed in the pack (which included Roberto Gaggioli of Coors Light and
Dave McCook of Saturn, along with the whole Saturn Team) until 5 laps
from the end when she had some sort of mechaanical.  Unfortunately, the
free lap rule had expired, so she was forced to abandon.

I could post the Tour de Michigan results, if anyone's interested.  Dave
McCook won, and Jonas Carney took second.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: apas611@chpc.utexas.edu (David Boles)
Subject: How fast is fast enough???
Organization: The University of Texas System - CHPC
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 22:00:14 GMT

I was wondering how fast people ride in USCF cat 3,4,(?)5
races here in the U.S.  I know that if you can time trial
25 miles in 1 hr (I can't) that you can enter races and not
embarass yourself, but how fast do the lower end (absolutely
no offense meant since I'm sure you could all blow me away)
riders ride?

Just wondering ...

David Boles
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Hotter'N Hell Hundred Cat 3
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:08:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: slc.1992Sep3.040844.26031
Distribution: usa
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Paul Sery (cs4331at@chaco.cs.unm.edu) writes:

> Hotter 'n Hell Hundred, August 29

> Oh yeah, the criterium.  Well 80 guys started the 10 turn (!) beast.  We rolled 
> around for an hour and the first 79 guys sprinted on the last lap.  Me, 
> I'm scared of the damn things and I was the very last guy for the entire race
> and especially the field sprint.  Funny, I used to contest stuff like that
> when I was 18.  I wonder what's different now?

When you've seen enough crashes...

My motto is: 'Just Say No To Crits'. Useless bloody races. Give me a real 
road race any day.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
From: jr29@prism.gatech.EDU (ROSS,JOHN B)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Cornering tactic- legal or not ?
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:42:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Last weekend, I was in a Cat 5 Criterium in Greenvill, SC.  The course was
a 1.4 mile loop around a park with the most notable feature being a 180
degrees turn at the bottom of a steep hill.  

The race progressed in a particularly boring fashion, everyone doing as
little time at the front as possible, saving strength for a field sprint
at the end, and riding cautiously through the corners, especially the
downhill 180.  I knew that I could corner much faster on my own, and that,
on the last lap, I would be out of contention if I was not leading through
the 180 corner before the finish.              

This was a 10 lap race, and for every lap the field of 9 riders would
pull to the far left at the straight section above the hill, then
ride in through the right side of the corner.  On the last lap, I sprinted
ahead of the bunch when they pulled left on the straight section to line
up for the corner.  As we descended the hill, I was leading on the inside
with the pack in their normal position on the left, getting ready to 
cut in.  I made the corner ahead of them, braked briefly, and sprinted
out, ahead of eveyone.  Unfortunately, I sprinted too early, and was only
able to pull a 4th out of the race.

Several of the other racers were unhappy about my tactic at the corner,
although none would say that what I did was illegal.  It seems to me
that I beat them fairly through the corner by chosing a faster line,
and that it was their hard luck for not anticipating or observing such
a move.  My reading of Bicycle Road Racing by Eddie B. shows that he
endorses similar moves.  Would anyone who knows care to comment on
the legality or advisibility of my tactic ?

-John Ross
-- 
John B. Ross
Georgia Institute of Technology
jr29@prism.gatech.edu
From: ks@stat.tamu.edu (Kurt F. Sauer)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Length of Races in the U.S.:  Too Short?
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:13:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamsun.1992Sep3.161346.29740
Distribution: usa
Organization: A&M Cycling Team, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas

There are some items on the USCF Board of Directors agenda which are
quite interesting and which deal with the length of racing in the U.S.

I will extract from the agenda; I wonder what you (other racers) think.
Personally, I think that the rationale for longer races is quite correct;
a straw poll of my club and team agrees.

Item B22a:  Amend Rules 4B1 and 4B2:
	4B1:  Change the maximum duration of racing from 6 to 10 days
	      except for National Tour events whose maximum length would
	      change from 12 to 20 days.  Rest days are not included in
	      the count of competition days.

	4B2:  Prologue individual time trials, if used, are included in
	      the duration count.

	Submitted by Les Earnest.
	Comment:  "Riders must be able to go longer in order to be
	competitive internationally.  This modification includes the
	prologue in the count of race days and removes some constraints
	on the prologue.  The prohibition on more than two stages per
	day is already covered by Rule 4B4."

Item B31:  A set of alternatives to amend Bylaw J, Section 6:
	[I will skip the part about the point system for upgrading,
	although this is also worthy of discussion.]

	Part 3.  Upgrading by Performance.
	...
	[Added] (b) A qualifying race for upgrading is one of the following
	races that is not a handicap, club, collegiate, or training race
	and that is open only to riders of the applicant's category or
	higher.
	(1)  Individual road races at least 100km long for men or
	70km long for women and minimum field size of 60 men or 25 women.
	(2)  Criteriums at least 40km long for men or 32 km for women with
	minimum field size of 60 men or 25 women.
	(3)  Stage races at least two days long.  Points can be earned
	both in the qualifying stages and for overall placing at the end.

	Submitted by Legislation Committee.
	Comment:  "This provides upgrades based on a point system similar
	to the National Ranking System."

I believe that both of these items will cause races to become somewhat
longer in length (that is, at least as long as needed to allow people to
accumulate upgrade points).

One question--a vexing one--is whether collegiate racing should ever be
allowed to factor into upgrade decisions.  While it is true that some
collegiate competition is difficult to compare directly to USCF compe-
tition, it's clear that some racing, such as Collegiate Nationals, is
a very competitive race.  Maybe it's because it is a stage race...
--
Kurt F. Sauer
College Station, Texas
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing,rec.bicycles
From: harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney)
Subject: Re: World Championship Road -- Contest
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:12:29 GMT

tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
: Hmm, a flat course, well -- it looks like a sprinters race if
: the pack stays together and a green jersey type if it doesn't.

The posting I saw said there were 350 m, or over 1100 ft, of climbing in
each of 12 laps.  That makes it 4200 m, or almost 14,000 ft, of climbing
during the race.  It doesn't sound flat to me.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: How fast is fast enough???
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:06:46 GMT

David Boles (apas611@chpc.utexas.edu) writes:

> I was wondering how fast people ride in USCF cat 3,4,(?)5
> races here in the U.S.  I know that if you can time trial
> 25 miles in 1 hr (I can't) that you can enter races and not
> embarass yourself, but how fast do the lower end (absolutely
> no offense meant since I'm sure you could all blow me away)
> riders ride?

Jeepers! It's hardly that difficult. If you can time trial 25 miles in one
hour you can probably win a good number of Cat 4 races, at least. Most
races at the 4/5 level seldom involve long sustained efforts. The average
speed of most 4/5 races out here (admittedly not the most difficult
district in the US) runs between 23 and 26 MPH, depending on terrain, for 1
to 3 hours. This is average pack speed - nobody ever sits at the front and
takes the breeze for the entire duration. Anybody who could maintain 25 MPH 
average would stand a fair chance of staying in front of such a pack if the 
terrain and pack mood were right. [Right Jonathan?]

But nobody needs to do that, or seldom does, since most of the hard work in
a flat to moderate road race comes in relatively short sustained bursts.
(It is different even here in Cat 3, where the bursts can last minutes.)
The requirements for hanging in on a Cat 4 road race tend to be:

    Ability to ride 24-27 MPH in a pack for 1-3 hours

    Ability to ride 30+ MPH in a pack for a minute or so while chasing

    Ability to ride 35+ MPH in a pack for 10-15 seconds during a sprint or
    hotspot

    Ability to ride 30+ MPH alone in the breeze for 10-30 seconds to close 
    a gap

    Ability to recover from any of the last three efforts before the next 
    such effort comes along

I've never excelled at hilly races or criteriums, so I'll defer to someone 
else who can describe those races.

I've found in my own training and racing that the latter two are the most
important for beginners, since they cover the consequences of the most
typical beginner mistakes: being gapped on a corner and sucking wheel
behind someone else who gets gapped. In these cases, you've got to be able
to pick up your own pace long enough to catch back on, and then you've got
to recover before some yahoo up front decides to go for a whirl. The first
three tend to come as side effects of training for the last two.

Mind now, this isn't advice on how to win. I'm no expert at that. But I
don't ever get dropped from flat races, and I've been known to win or help
my teammates win every now and then. I manage to get by on about 70-120 
miles of riding a week - hardly ideal, but enough to remain moderately 
competitive and have a good time out there.

So don't believe people who say racing is ridiculously difficult. It's
hard, but anybody willing to suffer a bit can do it. Category 1 or 2, or
even 3 - that's another story altogether. And the pros - yeesh!

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: les@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Les Earnest)
Subject: Re: Length of Races in the U.S.:  Too Short?
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:44:41 GMT

Regarding current USCF restrictions on stage race durations and
distances that I have proposed to loosen, John Ampe writes:
>Yes!  While we're at it, why not just remove these rules altogether?
>I can't see any purpose in them.  If people want to get to gether and
>race 200 miles a day for 30 days, why not let them?

I agree, but generally propose only what I believe can plausibly be
gotten through the political process.

>[.  .  .]  Fortunately, the USCF at least has the good sense to ignore
>its own rules.  The Ore-Ida race is in violation of almost every rule
>under section 4B, yet gets sanctioned anyway.  So given that these
>rules are not even followed, why not remove them?

Actually those rules were formally waived under USCF Rule 1B1, so the
USCF did follow its rules.  If my proposal is adopted, this bit of
bureaucracy will no longer be necessary.

>Please also consider removing the sexual differences in section M5.
>If I were a woman I would be extremely insulted that the longest
>women's race allowed for the national championships is 110km, while
>the shortest race permissible for the men is 160km!

The distances were chosen to separate the top riders from the
also-rans.  Given that there are about 1/10 as many women riders
as men in the U.S., shorter distances are sufficient to decide
the women's races.  More would be boring.

>Can you imagine
>if women entering the Boston marathon were only allowed to run 15
>miles?  Or if women competing in the Ironman were only allowed to do
>half the distance?  I think it's about time the USCF entered the
>1990's!

Sheesh -- be reasonable.  We haven't gotten out of the 1800s yet!

[Regarding upgrading points:]
>I much preferred the idea proposed a while ago of making the points
>scale a function of the number of entrants in the race.

I did include that proposal in the legislative agenda and hope that it
will be adopted instead of the one proposed by USCF staff.

--
Les Earnest                                  Phone:  415 941-3984
Internet: Les@cs.Stanford.edu              USMail: 12769 Dianne Drive
UUCP: . . . decwrl!cs.Stanford.edu!Les         Los Altos Hills, CA 94022