HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:48:53 GMT
Organization: Black Oak Coven

I've read several people now, recommending MISTS OF AVALON as Pagan
fiction.  I can make no such recommendation.  Almost all of Marion's
fiction consists of soapbox oratory disguised as novels.  Around about
a third of the way into the "Guenevere" section, I flung the book across
the room with great force, exclaiming as I did so (and as I inevitably
end up doing when reading Marion's stuff): "Dammit, Marion, get off your
fucking soapbox and tell the fucking story I paid for!"  Guenevere is
such a cardboard villainess that I can't take the book seriously at all.

Now if you want Arthurian and other sorts of historical Pagan fiction
with a story (though these books have their own problems, which I won't
get into here), including some really fine ritual and nice language, I
recommend the books of Diana Paxson: THE WHITE RAVEN, and SERPENT'S
TOOTH (the former is Tristan & Isolde, the latter King Lear).  She's
also written two occult-oriented books set in Berkeley, which are my
absolute favorites of her stuff: BRISINGAMEN, and THE PARADISE TREE.

But I think my all-time favorite Pagan books have to be Charles DeLint's
MOONHEART and GREENMANTLE.  For the anthropology-minded, there's also
Jane Yolen's SISTER LIGHT, SISTER DARK and WHITE JENNA (both young adult
books), and Ursula LeGuin's ALWAYS COMING HOME.  Neither the Yolen nor
the LeGuin books are dogmatically neo-Pagan, but they are thoroughly
Pagan in spirit.  The Yolen books, particularly, have some fine magic
and interesting Goddess mythology.


B*B
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: That Virgin Mary really gets around
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Aug14.160846.14765@csus.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:53:26 GMT

On a related issue, I was reminded of a creation story I have heard
before by Paul Rodrigues on the PBS MacNeil/Lehrer Newshour. He said
that the original name for that big city in southern California was
Reina de los Angeles, now this is not so easy to translate. Literally,
it would be Queen or Lady of the angels. However, remember we are
talking about Mexican culture here. From a strict Christian translation,
this would be Mary, however it does not take a lot to perhaps realize that
what is really being praised here is the Earth Goddess. This, of course,
is my interpretation of what is going on. The Goddess is returning after
getting suppressed. The idea of Eve being born from Adam is not
sustainable.
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: OOOPS!
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 03:10:58 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

OOOPS! I just realized that I made a slight error in my last post. The Heinlein
book with the Wicca stuff in it is "Job", not "Friday" <blush>

Guess that's what happens when you try to answer mail when you'e been up for 36
hours!
Sorry folks.



' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours!  
 
Hawk
 
Circle of Ashtoreth, 
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
From: cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: paganism a religion.. <rant warning>
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:45:07 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

no rant here.

religion is a political, realworld term.  It has special protection
under the laws of the USA.

I dont know what problem YOU (all of you!!<--that was my rant:)
have with the word religion, but as the trainer in my first est
training said etbj (<-decode this as z>a,a>b,b>c...) should be
like spagetti.  (Now just try that one in bed!:)

If it includes the word holy, it is a religion.

HOLY holy HOLY.  I open my arms and feel the rain.
I lover them and I feel it too.

Maybe you (who oppose this) have been missing something.
(correction 2 lines above, that was I lower my arms.. then I
feel the energy from below. What a nice thot.)

Harmony

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us
Citizen of the World.
                            "All is my own Dream."         (TKR)
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Tell me yours. . . . . . . . . . .
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Numbers
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:21:06 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <BsuMv5.DGA@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) writes:
>smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:

>>Don't be silly. There is a good reason he could not have been Christian.
>>He did not profess Jesus as his Lord and Saviour. That's about the only
>>working definition of a Christian I've ever seen. It rules Hitler out.

>This is not the definition of Christian which most Christians use.  This is
>the standard fundie definition.

Excuse me while I plau extremely dense for a moment...  If this isn't the
definition of Christianity, WHAT IS???  (From the Lutheran ministers who I have
spoken with (read: non-fundie) that is the BASIC definition of all
Christianity...  (Hmmm... Raise your hand if you were raised by a Preachers
Kid....  Okay, so I'm alone on this one, but I got it as bad as the average
P.K....)

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:25:22 GMT

Many thanks to the people who gave me sources for runes; I printed
radzy's stuff.

Thanks!

Janis
  

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: draft of Taxonomy of Magic
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 18:46:48 GMT

Krikket writes (just an out-take, not meant to imply context);

>"On many levels any two practicioners are going to be VERY
>different.  But on many other levels two practicioners are going
>to have a LOT in common."

  I've always felt that the Catholic transubstantiation was
remarkably similar to many drawings down of the Moon that I've
participated in.  

  The Catholics have a much different interpretation of what's
going on than the Pagans, of course, but the mystical
underpinnings of it all seem quite similar to me.

  In many of the same ways, theatre, and especially, street
theatre, share essential elements with ritual in all of its
forms.  Many people who I've talked to refuse to consider this
or even discuss it, but having done both I can say that my
performance of each was enriched by practicing the other.

  Again, hammer and saw.  We all prefer different kinds and
wieghts of hammers, and can talk for hours about how MY hammer
is better and entirely different than THEIR hammer.

  But we're all sticking pieces of wood together.

  Even if some of us are hammering screws  ;)

  (Oooh -- there's so many ways to misinterpret that, aren't
there?  What did I _REALLY_ mean by that ???  Only de Goddess
knows, heh, heh, heh.)

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:14:42 GMT
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN

>"Since I'm straight and male, I have to be an oppressor based on
>the logic you two (and others) were using.
>
>Wassail,
>Grendel"

  Seems more to me like your conclusion is based on an
application of YOUR logic to their statements, rather than
any representation of THEIR logic.  Their statements are,
unfortunately, merely that.  Just statements.  When you try to
glean someone's thought processes out of written statements,
then assume that you understand someone's "logic", and apply
it to other cases, you're walking yourself out on a limb of
your own construction.

  Don't blame others for your own extrapolations and conclusions.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: P/pagan bashi how to stop it
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 13:17:44 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

        It seems to me that law suits are all well and good, as far as 
getting even or trying to stop these groups from doing what they are. But 
it seems that they are acting out of a misguided  belief that our 
(society's) souls are in need of saving brought on by the ignorance and 
fear that is caused by hundreds of years of brain washing. This is not to 
say that they are wrong...merely  misguided.  This has spilled over into 
main stream society in the form of the "traditional" stereotypes that 
witches and pagans are placed into.
        Instead of going out and suing the pants off of our enemies, let 
us combat hate and ignorance through education and love.  To do this why 
not become more openly active in the community through things like food 
and clothing drives, tree planting, cleaning up our parks and 
neiborhoods, and other such service projects. Also we can hold folk 
festivals at major holidays in order to aid in creating an understanding 
of ouselves and oureliefs.  These tactics have worked for other religions 
why not us?  This is not to say that we should go out and try to convert 
people or to compromise our individual secrecy but to let the public know 
th we are here and that we are not what they think. I realize that this 
post is probably going to attract a serious "flame fest" but think it 
over anyway.... thank you.
                                Blessed Be,
                                         Liam

------------------
liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam)  or  liam%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: jet
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:40:28 GMT

In article <5729@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley) writes:
>
>There are a couple of craftpeople in Whitby working jet jewelry still.

ha! then i might just find some for me necklace after all - i'm coming
'ome for a visit in september. thanks for the info chris!
sally
>
>--
>Chris Lilley
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
>Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
>Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
>Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pierson@kukri.mps.mlo.dec.com (dan pierson)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:57:19 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 18 Aug 92 13:14:00 CDT, donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) said:

> Actually,that's _Worm Ouroborous_ and I loved it, although it took me 

Opps, watch those fingers...

> YEARS to read it! I out it down two or three times. If you like that kind 
> of read, try Mervyn Peake's _The Gormenghast Trilogy_

Seconded, an all time great, not all that pagan though.  On the other
hand, I bought "Moonwise" (my first pagan book recommendation) because
of hearing the author speak in a panel on Gormenghast... 

                                            dan

--
Dan L. Pierson          Digital Equipment Corporation
pierson@crl.dec.com     Massively Parallel Systems Group
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amber...Jet.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 13:35:12 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley) writes:

> "jet (lignite) a black mineral and type of coal formed from carbonized
> wood. it has been revered as a protector against illness and personal
> attack by many ancient civilizations, espec. those of the european
> continent. people were buried with it to protect them in the
> afterlife. it was used specifically by the greeks for toothache".
> [crystalline communion - the earthlight series]
>

what a concidence!  when katy was just little, just becoming toilet-trained, i
bought her a carved jet water-buffalo bead, about three inchesa long, to make
her her first necklace (i was pretty gardnerian in those days, still being new
and that having been about all i had read) for her initiation into childhood
from babyhood.  i tied the water buffalo so she would be facing toward her,
with the idea of it being a protector for her.  never knew i was repeating a
pattern of my ancestors!

i love amber, always have.  i have a box of non-gem-quality amber in front of
the goddess figurine fo the day on my altar, and i always pick it up to breathe
deeply from it as i go into meditative trances.  now i think i want to acquire
some jet too, and the heck with the gardnerian priestesses!  i want an amber
and jet beaded necklace too!!!

do carved amber beads smell nice when worn like the amber chunks i have do?
the amber necklaces i haev seen look too much like plastic...

                                             -ailsa

p.s. i haven't responded to janis' original post because i responded to it in
email a couple of sweeks ago.  it looks reworked slightly, and it is STILL
beautiful!  i want to marry janis...  B)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
        I don't need a hero                Silence \      / Action
        I don't need a soldier                =     \    /    =
        I did when i was younger            Death    \  /    Life
        But now i'm so much older.                    \/
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:8039 soc.motss:35813 rec.games.frp:24750 alt.atheism:15415 talk.religion.misc:14243 talk.religion.newage:3840 sci.physics:13057
From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,soc.motss,rec.games.frp,alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:07:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: zephyr.36099
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <Bt8JGq.76D@news.larc.nasa.gov> kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov ( Scott Dorsey) writes:
>In article <16tkkmINN9gu@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s21.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
>>In article <920818174711_70253.2621_CHC74-1@CompuServe.COM>, 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes:
>>|> When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is not a valid answer)
>>
>>When you burn your computer, where will the bits go?
>
>To the DEC Field Service office, of course!


  I here I always thought that they just went into a big bit bucket. 


-david
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:09:32 GMT
Organization: Black Oak Coven

In article <1992Aug18.050514.15121@u.washington.edu> rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
>Now that Alan Garner's name has been mentioned, I'd like to mention
>his _The Owl Service_, based around a famous incident in the _Mabinogion_
>but played out in the modern world.
>
>--LeGrand

Actually, I was dissatisfied with THE OWL SERVICE.  Seemed to me that
Garner missed the point.  I much preferred his THE WIERDSTONE OF
BRISINGAMEN and its sequel (whose name I can't remember).  I was peeved
that he never got around to writing the third book of that trilogy.

A treatment of the Mabinogi that I really like (not set in the modern
world) is the four books by Evangeline Walton, which I see someone
mentioned at least one of.  They are: PRINCE OF ANNWN, THE SONG OF
RHIANNON, THE CHILDREN OF LLYR, and THE ISLAND OF THE MIGHTY.

B*B
	- Leigh Ann


Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:30:14 GMT

A definition of what (roughly) constitutes pagan fiction would help, but
anyway...

'The way of Wyrd' by Brian Bates(?) 

The story of a christian missionary in pagan britain and of his
conversion...

'The dragon waiting' by John Ford(?) 

An alternative history...renaissance europe, byzantium flourishes,
christianity is a fringe religion, paganism is alive and well, magic
works but costs.

Ollie...
'I still dream, of Organon, I wake up crying...'
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: a gods resoning?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 23 Aug 92 16:18:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.140606.13918@news.iastate.edu> txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>if i were a god i might ask/have another ask a question about ones worth
>as a test. it seems to me that mytology's tend to refer to gods testing
>people. Does a god have to be omnepotint/all knowing/in total controle?
>cant a god simply be an extremly powerful non-physical entity?
>
>ELF-KIN	What would a cave dweller think of us now?

The idea still makes my feet itch.  Does that mean that, even if I lead
an exemplary life, if I get to the "Pearly Gates" or whatever and say,
"What the hell do you mean 'should I het you in'!" I would get sent to
hell?  If yes, then it would seem that life matters less than the test.
If no, then what good is asking the question?  I would hope that LIFE
itself would be more than enough of a test to see who merits what.

Asking this question makes G/god/dess (whatever) sound like the traffic
cop who pulls you over and asks, "Do you know how fast you were going?"
He HAS a radar gun and knows better than you, but just asks to see you
squirm a little.

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Subject: Re: That Virgin Mary really gets around
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 14:55:50 GMT

What I wonder about is why she is called the VIRGIN Mary. Does it
really say in the Bible that she did never have sexual intercourse
with any person? Granted that she was a virgin when getting pregnant,
why would she stay so for the rest of her life? Surely one-child
families were extremely rare at these times, weren't they? Poor woman.


This should really go to soc.religion.christian, I suppose. Personally
I have no idea as to where inthe Bible to look for a clue about The
Virgin Mary. Could someone with more knowledge tell me?

--Ceci

--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
"Words of more than one syllable, not stressed on the last syllable,
do not double the final consonant, unless it is l, when a suffix
beginning with a vowel is added,..." From The Oxford Guide to English Usage
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Surveyors Drive a White Pickup [was Re: Survey]
Keywords: Stupid Waste of Time	
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:57:40 GMT

>In article (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes...
>}When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is not a valid answer)
>
>}What is my "agenda" for asking these questions?  Just curious.

I have to agree with Janis. I distinctly remember seeing a bunch of fundies
roaaaring through here in a white pickup truck, yelling out their support 
for the Republican platform and the New World Order. I think it's time I 
*finally* figured out how to get a /kill file working, as this kind of inane
drivel reinforces my belief in just how mindless some belief systems can be.

For example, these people assume that none of us have ever considered 
Christianity as a faith; that we all reject it; that their third-grade
level questions actually merit discussion; that they "disrupt" our 
discussions (when we just ignore the thread); that we CAN'T retaliate by
disrupting "their" newsgroups; etc. Basically JUVENILE behaviour.

As for the Traditional Values Coalition, they're influential nationally,
not just in California. Did anybody see the photo of Dan Quayle, Jesse
Helms and Pat Robertson all holding each other, smiling big and waving to
a crowd of ultra-right wingers? If you missed it, you probably digested 
your dinner that night a little better. Now we all can rejoice in the
fact that Rush Limbaugh, the snarling bigot, can soon be viewed in all his
fat glory on television. Don't e-mail me for the TV schedule; I stopped 
watching TV a long time ago.

BTW, I don't have a problem with Christian worship.  Really.  I just 
find it completely intolerable that some people can be so fucking arrogant
that they not only assume they know what's best for me (that I'm not 
capable of making an informed decision), but go so far as 
to try to limit my freedom to practice MY RELIGION.

And one more thing, has anybody tried buying a bible lately? Damn, but almost
everybody I've talked to is a born-again, and what _I'd_ consider a scholarly
bible is considered "liberal" and untouchable. Like having a "liberal" bible
in the store or on your person was a crime of Yahweh. Way-Yechh. You should
have heard the sound of the guy's voice on the phone; like he could picture
me with a set of Pan-horns and fuzzy thighs (well ok, I'm almost fuzzy) on 
the other end of the line. For the few evangelical Christians who read alt.
pagan, can you recommend a good "liberal" bible? One that Protestant and
Catholic scholars wouldn't laugh at? If interested, please e-mail me.

Blessings to those who might accept them,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."