HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: Legal theory, Homophobia, and the Bible
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:30:52 GMT

In article <1if16iINNcnr@ARGENTINA.AI.CS.YALE.EDU> engelson-sean@cs.yale.edu writes:
> In article <1ietlqINNfeo@transfer.stratus.com>, lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann) writes:
> 
> |> To attempt to connect
> |> this thread to books, the only arguments I hear are 
> |> connected to a book----the Bible.  The arguments usually become "because the
> |> Bible said so." Leviticus also has prohibitions against eating cheeseburgers  
> |> and braiding your hair.
> 
> I'm an orthodox Jew and hence attempt to observe these prohibitions
> (note that this is very different from supporting legislation about
> same).  However, I've *never* heard about a prohibition on braiding
> hair.  Where is this, please?  I'm most curious.

I think Laurie misspoke herself here.  The prohibition on braiding hair
is in Timothy I 2:9.  Note that this is the New Testament.  This means
that all those people who claim the rest of Leviticus can be ignored
because it was superceded by the NT still have to contend with *this*
prohibition.  You, however, are off the hook. :-)

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Homeschooling (spp's response to multiple posts)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:25:01 GMT

In article <6JAN93.19582525@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>I don't see why you have the right to "strongly discourage" individuals
>from homeschooling their own children any more than fundamentalists have
>a right to harass women who want to have abortions.

I disagree on both issues. If freedom of speech in a free society means
anything, it surely means some people can try to persuade others not to
"homeschool," and it surely means that fundamentalists can try to persuade
women not to have abortions.

If by "harass" you mean something *other* than speech or publication,
I agree with you that fundamentalists don't have the right to, say,
block access to abortion clinics.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:31:15 GMT

In article <C0LGvn.G8I@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>Steve Dyer writes:
> Tell me, Morris, do you think blacks have "special privileges" because they
> are black?  I wanna hear you say it.  It'll be really, really satisfying
> to hear you say that.  John Stuart Mill, indeed!  It is to gasp with
> astonishment.

>Tell me first, Steve, whether or not you think affirmative action,
>and its legal sanction, awards special privileges to blacks because
>they are black.

Tell us first that you know what constitutes "Affirmative Action."
Most people don't.  

Roger
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: CP or not PC (is that a question?)
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:16:49 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <C0HLGB.Kpw@news.iastate.edu>, s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald) writes:
> In article <1ih5o5INNel4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel) writes:
# #  I think that Camille Paglia's greatest strength is her 
# #opposition to the so-called "risk free" society. Earlier I
# #mentioned a deconstruction of the Western by an English professor
# #at Duke. The Western, to her, was a reaction to the "humanism"
# #inherent in the social agenda of the latter half of the 19th
# #century. Perhaps now is the time for another such spin-off of
# #genre with all of the overly-protective social "agendeers" who
# #harp on total protection from any concievable mode of harm.
# #  I guess since I grew up with the draft over my head I feel that
# #the lack of institutionalized "threat" has given the younguns
# #carte blanche to develop their own institutionalized threats to
# #themselves and society.
# #  Just an observation.....
# #-- 
# #Ted....
# 
# I wonder who the proponents of a "risk free" society might *be* that
# you're thinking of . . . I frankly have never met any of the sort of
# folks you're talking about.

Handgun Control, Inc.  Motorcyle helmet law proponents.  The American
Trial Lawyers Association.  Ralph Nader.  In short, the rich and powerful,
the liberals of our society.

# michael mcdonald


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: academic settings
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:36:05 GMT

In article <30090@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan11.004646.12311@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>~This seems as good a time as any to post the obligatory monthly
>~recommendation of A.S. Byatt's POSSESSION.
>
>And to point out that, though entertaining, it's just a ponced-up copy
>of "Changing Places" ;-)

In your dreams, maybe.

But we should just require all r.a.b.id folks to read both.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Cross-Writing (was: Books I Got For Xmas)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 22:25:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan7.210448.27091@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.193331.19047@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
>>Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?
>
>In the video store, possibly. In the bakery, certainly.
>-- 
>Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution

Sigh.  I live on a block with a video store (with hand-dipped ice-cream),
a bakery (with espresso), a used bookstore with conversation pit (pit
being the operative term here) *and* a deli.  Also with espresso.  Am I
bragging or complaining.  This is the question.

Mary Loveless
____________________________________________________________________________
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.  Inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read."  Groucho Marx.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 7 Jan 93 14:53:19 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <15400005@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM> kyle@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Kyle Karnosh) writes:
>>/ hpspdla:rec.arts.books / loosemore-sandra@cs.yale.edu (Sandra Loosemore) /  2:43 pm  Dec 31, 1992 /
>>ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>>
>Do you always pack two times as many books as you will have time to read?
>How about deciding what not to pack so that you can fit all the books
>you want to take with you? The books and magazines come first, if
>there's not enough room to fit the required clothes, you get another
>suitcase. 

This can sometimes reach the heights of stupidity.  I once travelled around
Eastern Turkey for 3 weeks with all three volumes of the Penguin edition
of Proust's 'Remembrance of Things Past' in my rucksack.  Having previously
managed Swann's Way and half the next book, I only read another 50 pages.

As an example of bibliphiles who pick up and put down books partially read
(I started a lot more books in 1992 than I finished....), I would add that
if you suffer from this condition, you have to pack twice as many books
as can be read - better to make them several slim volumes rather than
tomes such as the above.

On bathtime reading, it's the only place to get some bloody peace for
some of us; I could stay in there for days with a guaranteed supply of hot
water.  Yesterday I apologised once again to the librarian for a crinkled
copy of a Naguib Mahfouz novel, hurled into the bath by a 2 year old.
Curiously, when he does this, it is always library books, and always
Naguib Mahfouz, showing precocious good taste.

This is the kind of self-indulgent drivel for which r.a.b. is famous,
isn't it?

ian

PS No replies to my requests for the author of the book with the
following quotation inside the front cover:

A bowl of kif before breakfast gives a man the strength of a hundred
camels in the courtyard.

I'll have to make it blindingly obvious: the author is an American...
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Date: 11 Jan 93 13:33:10 GMT
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 255-9121

In article <1993Jan8.212352.28996@crd.ge.com> kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.171757.5650@speedy.aero.org> nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel) writes:
>>
>>Incidentally, if you want to hear a really skilled storyteller, you can't
>>do better than getting Jay O'Callahan's tapes.  In particular, the two
>>sets of Pill Hill Stories ("Coming Home to Someplace New," which includes
>>"Glasses," "Chickie," and, my personal favorite, "Politics," and "The
>>Dance") and "Herman and Marguerite" from "Earth Stories" are wonderful to
>>listen to.
>
>I haven't heard Jay O'Callahan, but I heartily recommend Robert
>Munsch, in particular _The Paper Bag Princess_ and _Jonathan
>Cleaned Up -- And Then He Heard A Noise_, and Rosalie Sorels, who
>may or may not have published books of her stories.
>
I'd love to hear these :).  Can anybody provide information on where to get
them?  Incidentally, are they VCR tapes or cassette tapes?  In exchange, the
Kentucky Educational Television produced a small series of "storyteller
tapes" that can be purchased for your VCR.  There are 4 tapes, and the whole
set is $50.00 (I don't remember how much they were individually).  There are
2 Appalachian folk-tellers, one African, one African-American, and one
American Indian.  The two from Appalachia are wonderful, telling traditional
Jack tales, and singing songs etc. and there is some background on Adrienna
Belcher - how she learned to tell stories, and why etc.  The tapes also
really appeal to children.  Several of my friends were amazed when their
kids would sit down and watch them over and over - despite the lack of "modern"
type entertainment (the children are rather sophisticated :).  Anyway, I
recommend them, and it's nice to see and hear them told, as opposed to
reading them.
				Laura Mollett
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: ISBN information wanted
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 18:49:50 GMT

Leslie Troutman writes:
 
Well, all I know is that searching ILLINET Online (garcon.cso.uiuc.edu 620
or 128.174.5.58 620) by ISBN is very easy.
 
	Come now! I am sure you know more than that. You found your
way into this convivial forum did you not?

	Keith - whose library catlogue also allows ISBN searchs






--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Homeschooling
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 13:14:51 GMT

In article <13799@optilink.COM>, cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:

|> 1. It should NEVER have gone to court.  The school board should
|> blah, blah, blah...
|> 
|> 2. You shouldn't be too surprised at this sort of behavior in a
|> blah, blah, blah...
 
 Clayton, your preachings belong in alt.soapbox, not rec.arts.books.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bobdev@hprpcd.rose.hp.com (Bob Devereaux)
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:53:20 GMT
Organization: HP - Systems Technology Division
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

A great thread!  Now will someone PLEASE email me the true lyrics (these
CAN'T be right) to:

   Blinded by the light,
   Wrapped up like a douche
   an' like a runner in the night...

--
Bob Devereaux
bobdev@hprpcd.rose.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 16:46:05 GMT

jmc writes:

>Maybe people didn't pay attention to what they quoted of what I wrote.
>The robot was designed to obey, "Stop" provided it was said in the
>manner prescribed in the instructions.  It also was supposed to
>understand "Turn left", etc.  It was just that shouting didn't help.

  I do hope this has no implications on that little competition you
decided to sponzor, in your everlasting shining greatness.

  To quote your self:

>A $25 prize is offered for the best posting in the next week viewing
>this development with alarm, i.e. children shouting at robots.

  The robot's reluctance was mentioned, but not included under the 
conditions of the prize offering.

David Stein, streets of Westwood, 90024 (and extremely hungry now)
*
He who refuses to talk nonsense is doomed to do arithmetic.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: RE: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:04:55 GMT
Organization: Clark University

Michael Sean Rooney wrote:

>        How can knuckling under to a purported biological determinism 
>ever be empowering to anyone?  Holding that men "just can't help themselves"
>(which is precisely what Paglia's position amounts to) 

I don't think her position can be stated in such simplistic terms.  I see her
as encouraging women to take responsibility for themselves and stop thinking
of themselves as victims.  Women *have* been victimized, but to cling to
victim status is to leave all the power in the hands of the oppressors.  

As far as "purported biological determinism" is concerned: do you truly
believe that hormones have nothing at all to do with behavior?  How do you
explain male aggressiveness?  

>rather gives the lie to Heather's putative liberalism (cf. the exchange with
>Steve Dyer). 

I never claimed my philosophy to be "liberalism".  I call it common sense.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: ADDICTED READING OF COOKBOOKS ( WAS Re: LIKE WATER FOR CHOCOLATE)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 18:47:16 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1i45m6INNc9c@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel) writes:
>
>Meg W. asks if the book is *good*... I don't know... I don't
>eat cookbooks...snarf...
>(It's a good book reading wise...)
>-- 
>Ted....

I first became hooked on cookbook reading when, unable to cope with
*further* liveliness of the '60s in Inner City Detroit, my lover showed me
his copy of _The Joy of Cooking_, in which the recipe for cheese pie (as
best as I can recall) started with this startling phrase, "Our vile
tempered Swiss cook, Marguerite...."  I never did get the pie to come out
right, but I read the book from cover to cover looking for more little
tid-bits from the lives of Rombauer et al.

 Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.

"Too much of a good thing can be *wonderful*."  Mae West

"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:33:10 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan11.003723.12118@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
> In article <C0Ln7H.LDw@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
> >Mike Godwin asks:
# #  Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
# #  What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?
# #
# #I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to 
# #do this, yes.
# 
# In that case, I find it easy to imagine a reinstantiation of the 
# Nuremburg race laws.
# 
# Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution

Sure you do.  What society would instantiate such laws, and still
have antidiscrimination laws on the books?

Have you really not a clue?  If a majority is so racist that
antidiscrimination laws are necessary to avoid genocide, how in
the hell will antidiscrimination laws survive?

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:04:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan8.200412.2452
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <C0JqwG.5Hx@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>Umm, I explained I would support CO2 precisely because I think it does
>not advocate granting special privileges to heterosexuals. Perhaps
>you could explain how it in fact does grant heterosexuals such privileges?
>Again, I'm quite willing to change my mind about this. But, as
>far as I can see, the only thing CO2 does is says that a homosexual
>cannot have access to special privileges *by virtue of being
>homosexual*. It doesn't say that he can't have access to special
>privileges by reason of any other respect of his person. Nor does it
>say that heterosexuals can have access to special privileges because
>they are heterosexual.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Tell me, Morris, do you think blacks have "special privileges" because they
are black?  I wanna hear you say it.  It'll be really, really satisfying
to hear you say that.  John Stuart Mill, indeed!  It is to gasp with
astonishment.

Anyone who thinks that white heterosexual non-dead males don't enjoy
special privilege precisely because of their WHN-DM status is undoubtedly
a WHN-DM.  Some WHM-DM's manage to see beyond their blinders; others die
with their vision circumscribed, serene to the end in their assumptions.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:14:44 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <7JAN93.00315782@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>>She's no "difference feminist," 
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by "difference feminist".  She'd be classified as
>an "equality feminist" rather than a "gender feminist".

"Difference feminism" is another term for "gender feminism." See Katha
Pollitt's article in the Dec. 28 issue (I think) of THE NATION.

I think you are exactly right to call Paglia an "equality feminist."
But her focus on gender differences is similar in some ways to that
of some kinds of "gender feminism."

>>Mea culpa. But I've recanted since then. 
>
>You have?  I must have missed that.

I granted that Paglia is not a misogynist.

>I don't remember reading in any of her books, or hearing her say in any of
>her interviews, that women are incapable of succeeding at male pursuits such
>as writing.

She doesn't. But she does seem to think it's harder for women.

>I don't think she believes that, especially given her treatment
>of women writers such as Emily Bronte and Emily Dickinson.  However, if you
>can show me otherwise, I'm willing to change my opinion.

Paglia thinks Bronte and Dickinson coped with the limits of their
biological natures by adopting "male" sexual personae. But such successes,
she also says, are not common in women: e.g., "Women have never written
epic, the longest and most military of literary forms, taking in the gods
and heaven and hell."


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost