From: michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Michael)
Subject: Re: Gender differences - Sophie Germain
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:30:55 GMT

In <92351.144114RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>-From: michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Michael)
>-
>-As yet I see no reason to assume that men and women are not equal.  In
>-fact to assume they aren't seems to me to be a crime.  Therefore until
>-I see such proof, I will whole heartedly support such safe measures as
>-help bring that equality into being as soon as possible.
>-
>   The word `equal' is ambiguous.  I would say, equal in what way?  That
>they should have equal legal rights and equal opportunities to try their
>hand at something, I agree.  But you seem to be saying more - that
>there is NO statistical difference at any level other than purely

Incorrect.  I'm not saying that anyone is equal.  I'm saying that I
see no reason to assume that people aren't equal.  And I'm speaking
of potential.  Looking at the finished products of grown children in
our culture might tend to be misleading.

>reproductive.  Talents for writng, music, taking care of children,
>doing science, boxing, archery, Math, Chess,  occur with EXACTLY the
>same frequency in both sexes.  Would you say that they ALSO occur with
>the SAME frequency among women who go to Radcliffe and those who go
>to Secretarial school?  And if they do not, does it follow that these
>two groups of WOMEN are not EQUAL?   I think you are confusing two different
>notions of equality and taking a legitimate MORAL argument about ONE
>notion to argue to a highly questionable FACTUAL conclusion about
>ANOTHER notion of equality.

No, you are confused about what I was saying.

>-By the way...  what are the statistics on sinking ships these days?  Do
>-more men lose the quality of their lives in sinking ships than do women
>-in the workforce?  Even if this HAD been what we are talking about (which
>-it isn't), you have an apple in a barrel of oranges here sir.
>-
>   No, you are quite right.  The Titanic disaster led to a regulation that
>there must be lifeboat space for all passengers etc. etc.  But... that did
>not prevent several million American MEN from being sent to a foolish
>war in Vietnam, 57,000 to their deaths and many many more to destroyed
>lives.  Nor does it change the fact that the vast majority of people in
>prison are men.  I myself do not believe that the two sexes are  identical.

Well, as I said, after growing up in a culture which teaches men and women
to be different, of course a majority of men and women will be different.
But that's not what I'm talking about.

>There are significant differences, some to the advantage of men, some to
>the advantage of women.  But we currently have a state of dishonesty where
>there is an official pretense that there are no differences.   Hence we

No, many of us believe that if all children are raised in the same way
that men and women have ranges of potential ability that have large
intersections.  I.e. although women might not be as strong on the average
as most men almost any single woman can train to become stronger than most
men.  And aside from a few factors like natural strength, many of us are
not convinced that men and women are that different.  We tend to attribute
current differences to cultural training.

>must move heaven and earth whenever we find women worse off in any field.
>Whereas if men are worse off in some field, people like you may `take note
>of it', but in fact no one DOES anything much about it.  As BHV pointed
>out, Biden refused to even SEE men's groups who wanted to talk about domestic
>violence of which MEN are victims.  So much for equality.

People like me? :)  I don't have a responsibility to take note of that.
But point in fact, I have taken note of it.  Perhaps after the inequality
problem impacting women has been solved (which I consider much more
prounounced than ANY inequality men are suffering), I may do something
about that as well.  But I'm a man, and most inequalities that men
suffer in my experience are ones they themselves can easily end if they
have the strength to do so.  The rest are dwarfed by the inequality
problems women face.

    Michael Stanley (michael@glia.biostr.washington.edu)