HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and "wimmin"
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:13:45 GMT

O2NY000 <O2NY@UNB.CA> writes:

>In article <1992Dec11.195651.24178@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>>In article <11DEC92.15625014.0172@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> O2NY <O2NY@UNB.CA> writes:
>>>>.
>> Technological  innovation is one obvious example. 

I agree absolutely, but it doesn't have to be technological. I've long
said that the (probably anonymous, maybe committee) person who
decided that safety belts in the back seats of cars, to be used 
primarily by children, thus made more children survive to child-
bearing age than he could have done by just reproducing.

Another famous non-technological innovation was Semmelweis' conclusion
that it's a good idea to have clean hands when delivering children.
Hopefully someone else would have thought of it later, but considering
the opposition he met, I don't think we should count on it happening
in his time, without him.

A technological example is Dunlop. He wasn't an engineer, he was a 
doctor who wanted to be able to visit more patients per day.

>I don't really see how this is an obvious example. If perhaps this
>engineer did not develope the advances of which you speak, is it not
>probable that someone else would make these advances eventually?

This is something we by definition have no way knowing. It's all
very well to say "When it's steam engine time, steam engines will
be built". Even if it is so, which I don't think you can prove,
time is a factor: How many lives do you think Heimlich saved by
inventing his manouever when he did, instead of 10 years later?

--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Subject: Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:29:22 GMT

cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows) writes:

>The first Rama book was BORING. [...]
>  There's no conflict [...]

It's alright if you think it was boring, that's a matter of opinion.
But if you don't think there was any conflict in it, your copy must
be missing some chapters. Or maybe you belong to a generation that
don't see any conflict if there's no violence.

One example: If one group wants to set off a giant fusion device at
a time and place, and another don't want them to, I see a conflict;
you don't.
--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  
 I wonder if there is a universe where washing machines give away socks?
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: New Ace SF Specials (was Re: Literary SF)
Keywords: Literary SF
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:10:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Dec20.173451.4864@eff.org> write@eff.org (Glen Cox) writes:
> After Terry died, a few that he had bought and had been working on were
> released:
>    ... 
>    Claudia O'Keefe, (Something about Ice)

BLACK SNOW DAYS

>    ...
>    Michael Kandel, STRANGE INVASIONS

No, this was a Bantam Spectra Special Edition.

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"God does not play dice with the universe."  --Albert Einstein
"Albert, stop telling God what to do."  --Niels Bohr
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@operators.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Heinlein and "wimmin"
Keywords: silly me 
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:55:15 GMT

Some time ago, I wrote:

>> Friday is female, extremely competent, and very much her own boss in
>> most ways...
> Yes. And what does she ultimately end up doing with her life? Settling
>down, getting married and making babies. She sees this as the culmination
>of her life; it's implied that this is what she _really_ wanted to do all
>along.  It's a bit of a slap in the face to show a strong, self-sufficient
>woman and then turn her into a housewife.
 
 And now people are starting to flame me for it. 
 
 Folks, if you're going to quote me, make sure you do so in context. 
I was responding to someone who asked what some feminists would find
offensive about _Friday_. That argument was one I had heard from the 
self-professed feminist camp, and wasn't original with me. I even 
provided my own rebuttal to the argument in my original post, which 
many of the people who flamed me seem to have forgotten.
 
 Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman wanting
to settle down and raise kids. 
 
 There, now the feminists can flame me too.
 
 (I've been on this group long enough that I really should have seen
this coming. There's even a warning about it in the FAQ list. I wish
I could promise not to get involved in any more Heinlein debates, but
knowing me as I do, I probably will anyway.)
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
     \_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu
From: SteveWall@aol.com (Steve Wall)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Eco-Catastrophe Novel Request
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:30:52 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: Anhedonics Anonymous

> 
> Also what about _Fallen Angels_ by Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and
> Michael Flynn.  Concerns global warming.
> 
Perhaps an even better idea would be to couple _Fallen Angels_ with
_Earth_ by David Brin.  Earth describes the near future, extrapolating
ozone depletion, global warming, overpopulation, and maybe most 
interestingly, the Internet/Usenet itself.  Fallen Angels 
seems to have been written as an opposing view, saying the future isn't
so bleak, the environmentalists are all overreacting, etc.  Fallen Angels 
was dashed off in hurry during a SF fan convention, and includes lots of
cutesy-poo SF fan insider jokes.

Steve Wall
From: matt@physics.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:17:46
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group)
	<MATT.92Dec16164612@physics2.berkeley.edu>
	<dpn2.217.724563762@po.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: matt@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:42:42 GMT

In article <dpn2.217.724563762@po.CWRU.Edu> dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:


> One thing that Clarke has always been good at (which he loses in the 
> later Ramas) is creating aliens that feel truly _alien_.

I think I would agree with this, but with a caveat: Clarke is superb
at creating aliens that are alien for a particular reason, which is
that they are so far beyond us that we can't hope to comprehend them,
any more than a cockroach could hope to comprehend them.

_Rendevous with Rama_ is hardly the only Clarke book that has this
kind of alien; in a sense, the last part of _Rama_ is very similar to
the last part of _The City and the Stars_, which is similar to the
last part of _2001_,...  Clarke does repeat himself there.  Still,
it's not necessarily unreasonable to repeat something that you do
well.
--
Matthew Austern                   Just keep yelling until you attract a
(510) 644-2618                    crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a
austern@lbl.bitnet                faction, an army!  If you don't have any
matt@physics.berkeley.edu         solutions, become a part of the problem!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Re: Rama Reveiled by A.C. Clarke
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:35:32 GMT


Hey, now...I actually *LIKED* the later Rama books.  Each one,
in my opinion, is better than the last.

The first Rama book was BORING.  People land, people gawk at the
scenery without really finding anything out, people kill monkeys, 
people leave.  There's no conflict (except for that last part about
the monkeys), it's just they look around and leave.  They don't
even find much out about the aliens--just that they're THERE.

The next two are MUCH better.  There's conflict, mystery, suspense,
memorable characterization, and anticipation of doom building to a
climax that was reached at the end of the last novel.  If I don't 
get to read the next one, I think I'll go insane...

--
Chris Meadows // CHM173S@SMSVMA // CMEADOWS@NYX.CS.DU.EDU
   "If blood be the price of admiralty, then I've just bought me 
    a naval commission."  -- Corwin, SIGN OF THE UNICORN, Roger Zelazny

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: novak@spider.wri.com (John Novak)
Subject: Re: LENSMAN: Masters of the Vortex
Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:16:46 GMT

In <1992Dec10.164926.4503@wri.com> novak@wri.com (John M. Novak) writes:
>Agreed.  There is a line around page 32 in my copy (I don't have it in front of
>me, and forgot to write down the page) that explicitly mentions that
>(paraphrasing) organized piracy was not found since the fall of the Council of
>Boskone  (I think) which would place it at least after "Gray Lensman" possibly
>after "Second Stage Lensmen" (depending on which fall they are counting.)  If
>memory serves, the events of "Children of the Lens" were not considered to be
>against Boskone, but (unknown to most everybody) the Eich.
                                                      ^^^^
'Scuse me, meant "Eddorians", of course.  Sorry, Gharlane!  Also, the page
reference is p.36 of the Berkley paperback of Aug. 83.

>We do have one comment that will allow us to place this before "Children of the
>Lens"; the fusion of the type 5 masters that rated Cloud as a type 6 indicated
>that no Lensman past or present was of higher than type 5. 
>...
Page reference here is p.176 of the same edition.

--John Novak
novak@wri.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Subject: re: literary SF
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: UiO
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:21:14 GMT



I suspect that "literary SF" here means "SF written after or confirming to
mainstream literary standards". 

A lot of good stuff could well receive this label, but here in Norway this 
term also has a distinct negative denotation, due to the phenomena of 
mainstream writers choosing standard SF motives (often being totally
ignorant
of genre conventions and previous use of the motives ) and writing very
dull books [at least for the people who, like fans, have "read them before"
 - you get to know your "after the nuclear war" scenarios after a
while...], sometimes even without mainstream plus'es, like more perspective
on human characterization, added human interest and so on.

One example here is the notorious "public pleaser" Knut Faldbakken, who
started 
in the early 70'ies with a very competent and disturbing book about the
summer holiday of a boy beginning puberty, _Insect Summer_ (now published
in English, incidentally, and praised by Doris Lessing in _The Guardian_),
which had an
intriguing, ambient atmosphere.

Afterwards he's become a very "topical" writer, writing about themes that
are currently being discussed by large parts of the book-buying public
(radical 40-year-olds, among others), being a _bit_ daring, a _bit_ novel,
but always mostly delivering the expected...

Faldbakken wrote two novels about the "Fall-of-Western-Civilization". I've
heard that they are very dull and awful, and they became a bad and boring
movie.

Anyone out there feeling the same way about mainstream authors ventures
into
the fantastic?

I myself found the _Shikasta_ books stupefying...


PC
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  Forward to Foundation (Asimov) will it be released?
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 12 Dec 92 18:20:40 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <391@blue.cis.pitt.edu> pjhst10+@pitt.edu (Peter   J Hill) writes:
>>What do you mean by this? IA don't write stories any more?
>>(Excuse my ignorance; germany is sometimes far away from the rest of
>>the world).
>>
> True, IA does not write stories anymore, since he is now fertilizing
>the grass by his tombstone. [my deepest sympathies to Janet Asimov]
>In my original post I said that he was working on Forward to Foundation,
>and it's release date was supposed to be last January.  So my question
>still stands, Will the book be released?

Something I've often wondered about : Does anyone know if any SF writers
have been frozen after their deaths? It sounds like the sort of thing an
SF writer would want, but I've never heard of any examples.

(Or maybe I'm just wishfully thinking that we may yet see some new
Asimov or Heinlein yarns in a few centuries ... :-)

--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......
   Mine is the ship bound for Alpha Centauri
   We must be out of our minds
   For though we are shipmates bound for tomorrow
   Everyone here's flying blind                          (Crystal Gayle)
--

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone)
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Keywords: Literary SF
Organization: Unisys Defense Systems, Great Valley Labs, Paoli, Pa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:37:20 GMT

In article <1gime7INNrnp@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.163037.17375@gvl.unisys.com> rafem@gvlf7-e.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone) writes:
>
>_Palimpsest_ is the worst sf novel I have ever read, by at least two
>orders of magnitude.  It is appalling - amazingly appalling.  Anyone
>who reads it will come away with a great new respect for John Norman.
>It is simply the _magnum opus abominati_.
>
>In fact, I have proven rigorously that it represents the theoretical
>asymptote of awful fiction in the English language.
>
>c
>but the proof won't fit in the margins


Since I was the culprit who induced "c" to abreact his worst reading
experience, I'm going to steal his descriptive phrase and apply it
to two books I loathe.  IMHO, two novels are tied for the ultimate
in representing "the theoretical asymptote of awful fiction in the
English language."  (God I love that phrase.  Thanks "c.")  They are 
Norman Spinrad's _A World Between_ (utter dreck) and _Little Hereos_ 
(more utter dreck).


ralph marrone
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gjschmid@laplace.uwaterloo.ca (Greg Schmidt)
Subject: Anyone interested in Amateur SF?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 03:58:20 GMT

I have just completed a SF Literature course here at university.  One of
the course requirements is an essay or creative project.  About 85% of the
class chose the creative project route.  Some of the stories (and poetry
and artwork) were quite good, and we (the prof and a few students) are
considering putting together a small booklet of some of the best stories
etc.  It would probably contain around half-a-dozen stories, a few poems,
and maybe a comic strip.

What I am wondering is if anyone out there would be interested in this.
Obviously, it would be much easier to go ahead with this if I had a list
of 1000 people who would put down cash to support the project.  The cost
would likely be in the $5-$7 range, plus shipping, which I realize is
about the cost of a paperback.  Another (very remote) possibility would
be to try to print the comic strip in full colour.  This would raise the
price quite substantially (probably into the $15 range).

Please reply by email if you are interested, or have any comments to make.
 _________________________________________________________________
/ _ \     Greg Schmidt (gjschmidt@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)    \
\__) \                                                             \
     |"The world is such a stupid place." -Tom Cochrane & Red Rider|   __
      \  "If you're optimistic, you're forgetting something." -me   \ (_ \
       \_____________________________________________________________\___/
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Why Heinlein's folk want babies
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 03:34:35 GMT

mike@maths.tcd.ie (Mike Rogers) writes:

>Here we have a classic failure of vision. Ask yourself this, if you're the
>product of a totally advanced civilisation that can afford the massive 
>and sundry investments, and is possessed of the willpower, to "colonize"
>planets, then why the hell do you have to wait *nine* months for your
>'workers' to emerge. I'm sure vatgrown would be faster, cheper and altogether
>cleaner. Not to mention the greater social control allowed.

>In fact, if you're that advanced, why will you actually *need* human workers
>in vast numbers?

If producing a product is what you want to do, you could probably do it
with an entirely mechanized staff.  You could probably do it in the
asteroid belt, and need never leave the solar system.  We are talking about
starting a colony for the sake of starting a colony; a viable human
population is the goal, not the means.  If you could bring vats, and the
machines used to make the vats, and the machines used to make the machine
used to make the machines used to make the vats, and the entire service
division of Acme Vats, Inc., and so forth, I suppose you could do it that
way.  But I suspect this would be a very luxurious expedition with a
ridiculously high payload-- not very practical.
From: wigs@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Aaron Wigley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Is The _wing Commander_ Book For Real?
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:03:28 GMT
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Bryant Durrell (durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: There's gotta be a certain aspect of consumerism in writing; I
: understand that and I know why.  

In Julian May's _Pliocene_Companion_, she goes on to say how she waited
for several decades for the right market for her science fiction/fantasy
novels (esp. The Saga of the Exiles). She could have started work on
them in the 50's and 60's, but she waited it out, in the mean time
earning money writing Encyclopaedia entries.

: Consumerism is consumerism.
: Bryant Durrell				  durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu

The Wigs of Oz,
Aaron Wigley

Merry Christmas to all, and Good Fortunes in the new year :)
From: MBLANK@utcvm.BITNET (Michael Blank)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dragonlance
Date: 19 Dec 92 04:18:52 GMT


      Those that have only read the Chronicles are missing out on some
of the better fantasy books I have seen.  I love the kender.  They may
not be original but they are funny in an innocent way.  IMHO, I don't
think that the AD&D *game* is the best in the world but I don't see why
being based on a game system should affect the enjoyability of a book.
      If you want some good short stories try the Tales II trilogy,
there are several different writers so you get a good background of the
world from different authors.  The Hero's series is also good.  It is
a series of novels set in the past of Krynn, the Dragonlance world,
which tell stories of their greatest heros.  If you have only read the
Chronicles, don't knockit till you've really tried it.

PS- _The_Knight_of_the_Black_Rose_ is an excelent book about the Death
Knight, Lord Soth. It is not set in the Dragonlance world but develops
one of the most mysterious characters of the series, a cursed knight
which could have saved the planet from the "Cataclysm".  Don't miss this
book if you love a good villian.

 /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
|  /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\  |
| | Grabbit Wileucan               |*| "Ready to leave port, Capn'." | |
| | Captain of the GSS Overthere   |*| "All ahead full!"             | |
| | <mblank@utvvm.bitnet>          |*| "CRASH! CRUNCH! CRUMBLE!"     | |
| | <s206@utcmusic.bitnet>         |*| "...er...make that reverse."  | |
| | (Darkdreamer on Vampyres)      |*|   -The Log of the Overthere   | |
|  \________________________________________________________________/  |
 \____________________________________________________________________/
Organization: Sophomore, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:50:25 -0500 
From: Michael P Collins <mc7f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Friedman opinions??

Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 13-Dec-92 Friedman opinions??
by w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu 
>  
> I've just seen there's a new novel out - _Black Sun Rising_,
> or something like that.  Opinions, anyone??
>  

IMNSHO, Friedman's writing is workmanlike, but her ideas are Really,
Really Neato, if sometimes not well thought out.  I kinda think of
Friedman as a fun author, but not one I'm going to have deep literary
discussions about.
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Literary SF
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:21:58 GMT
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.berkeley.edu

For some newer work (in no particular order):

Lucius Shepard, Paul Park, Richard Grant, Ian McDonald, Pat Murphy,
Elizabeth Hand, Michael Kandel, John Crowley, Robert Charles Wilson.

A list by no means complete.

c
From: colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu (Colin Roald)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: linguistics in science fiction
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:30:12 GMT
Organization: U(r) AstroTheory Group

swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>Remember, we humans show so much cultural variation amoung ourselves that I
>cannot see how a viable alien culture could fall far enough out of the range
>of human cultures to be beyond our understanding.

By definition.



colin roald rational |  he opened up his mind and popped out of the groove
   romantic mystic   |  he saw both sides of everything and found he could
  cynical idealist   |    not move.                    -- james mcmurtry
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: fscem1@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Last of the Renshai (?)
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:12:11 GMT



	Regarding _Last of the Renshai_ and _The Western Wizard_ -
	I bought the second one first, being desperate enough for
	something to read to get them out of order, and liked it
	so much that I went and ordered the first one...and spent
	five minutes arguing with the bookseller, who insisted _LotR_
	wasn't out yet, even though it was the first book...but
	anyway.  I thought they were both good books - well worth
	reading.  I understand that Reichart (sp? don't have the books
	with me) has written a number of short stories - has she
	written any other books?

						-bright the hour		
							catie
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gsmith@lauren.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith)
Subject: Re:    The Most Influential and "the Best" Fantasy
Organization: IWR, University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 18:48:03 GMT

In article <9DEC199215054260@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov> kayser@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Susan E. Kayser NSSDC/STX (301)513-1673) writes:

>Try to find all of Charles Williams' books. These are hard to find
>these days, but are excellent.  They are much like C. S. Lewis's
>Perelandra trilogy. (The two men belonged to a club of literary
>religious figures; I think there were some other members who published
>books in this category.)

Some guy called J. R. R. Tolkien, whom nobody has ever heard of, for one.

-- 
     Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University 
               gsmith@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books