From: akash@sol.berkeley.edu (Akash R. Deshpande)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: On Indian Civilization being the oldest...
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:45:07 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL

Using following extracts only as a starting-point for a rough theory:

>                                                The Aryan upon their
>arrival into the continent went upon discovering the nature of the Self.
>Their initial thoughts were purely speculative and wonderful. They
>recorded their personal experiences as hymns. These hymns which are just
>poetic aspects were refined to beutiful pieces. These are what we call
>the vedic hymns. 

It is extremely unreasonable to suggest that an invading tribe went
about discovering "the nature of the self." If at all there was an
"Aryan arrival" into the continent, it was more than likely attended
by more vital matters such as survival, warfare, settling the land,
organising communities, townships, kingdoms, societies, etc, (and not the
least :-), learning Tamil). So let us give them about a 1000 odd years
to accomplish that. It is reasonable to say, however, that when society 
was reasonably prosperous and stable, a systematic attempt developed 
for discovering "the nature of the self." We know this since there 
was an elaborate mechanism of preserving knowledge through an oral 
tradition, which drew upon the teacher-disciple set up. An agrarian
society that can spare young individuals for non-agrarian tasks is
a clear sign of prosperity. I must note that the teachers in this society
were not world-denying ascetics, but in fact had substantial land
and other resources, and disciples were expected to perform worldly 
tasks in addition to academic/philosophical ones.

Coming to the Rig Veda, we see a remarkably systematic terminology 
which is consistent across all the hymns, and across all composers spanning
several generations. Hence, one may believe that in fact the Rig Veda
was a summary compendium composed towards the end of a major cycle
of "research". Its terminology is symbolic and draws upon a rural as well
as a martial mind-set to refer to (psychological) phenomena. Irrespective
of the subject of the Rig Veda, the consistent terminology with its rural
and martial source and the system of oral tradition for preserving it
suggest that a substantial stable culture and society that for some
reason valued the Rig Veda already existed. Hence, it would be an error
to classify it as purely personal experiences. Further, they were not
refined to beautiful poetry after composition. The oral tradition was
very rigid. In case alternate versions appeared due to later correction
or corruption, then both versions were preserved.

>Very soon they felt that their ritual component is the one
>that relates their self to the Brahman. They systamatized the rituals
>as Brahmanas; an appedage to Vedas. But their thought processes 
>developed further than the rituals; there came the philosophical
>aspects of the aryan civilization which are the Upanishads. Each
>veda (by now four) has hymns, the brahmanas and a set of Upanishads.
>This totality of work is attributable to a single person. There were
>a lot of people (basically the rishis) who were responsible for
>developing the volume of thought.

I don't know what you mean by "very soon", or by "they." Clearly,
society at large did not directly participate in the psychological
experiments recorded in the Rig Veda, but received the results through
disciples returning home, wandering minstrels, etc. More than likely,
these results were transmitted not directly as psychological experiences,
but rather as myths, stories, rituals, doctrine, philosophy, etc,
until their original symbolism was totally lost to society at large,
and only empty shells of formulae and rituals remained. This occured
alongside a further development of society into kingdoms, professions,
cultures, etc. with a more intellectual bent to the mind of the people.
This clearly doesn't happen "very soon," and accounting for production
of the other three Vedas, several Puranas, Ramayan, Mahabharat,
systematisation of the music system, language system, etc let us give
it (guessing) 1000-2000 years.

However, there remained a core of people who retained the thread of the
original quest, and through a second wave of "research" produced a
compendium of Upanishads which addressed the fundamental psychological
quest of the Rig Veda in a more philosophical setting. We must note that
again, the teacher-disciple set up persisted, that teachers were
generally well off, and thrust on this-worldly approach was emphasised.
All Upanishads essentially deal with immortality for man in this life
here on earth. In general, the teacher starts off by sermonising that
the disciple shall not neglect practical life while on the inner quest.
After the disciple reaches inner knowledge, the teacher ends by
sermonising that the disciple should use this knowledge in practical life.
In passing I note that that while social organisation was much more cast
in the times of the Upanishads, there was still quite a large commonality
and mobility.

Of course, now the same process repeated until the deep knowledge was
lost in empty formulae, shastras, codes, rituals; society became
more and more rigid, cultures diverged, professions became immobile,
etc, and life became more "tough" in general. Due to all the newfangled
languages, no one really had access to even the texts of the Vedas and
Upanishads.  Time was ripe for Jainism, Buddhism, etc. Certainly, Jain and
Buddha were themselves realised, however, the development of society by their
time gave an impossible picture of perfectible life on earth. Hence,
we got into Nirvana, moksha, other worldly attitude, fatalism, etc. This
sapped the life-force out of Indian society. There were strident
attempts by "Hindus" to incorporate Buddhism into itself. But we are
already discussing middle Indian history.


So, all in all, give me the following:

    >1000 years to settle the land, etc.
    1000 years to develop a stable prosperous society
    1000 years upto composition of Rig Veda
    2000 years upto end of Vedic Period
    1000 years upto composition of Upanishads
    1000 years upto end of Vedantic Period
    last 2500 years.

Of course, all of above are very approximate give/take few centuries in each.
Even then we need to push back "Aryan invasion" if at all there was one
to 5000BC-8000BC. In which case, of course, why do we need it at all?

-Akash
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.indian.telugu