From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 01:41:07 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <1992Aug16.231637.10955@ultb.isc.rit.edu> eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story ) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.031309.12258@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug13.165714.23880@ultb.isc.rit.edu> eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story ) writes:
>>>In article <Bsuu9G.I89@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>>>>In article <3484@faatcrl.UUCP> jprad@faatcrl.UUCP (Jack Radigan) writes:
>>>>>mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>>
>>>>>  The prison system doesn't reform criminals, parole doesn't work either.  All
>>>>>it does is prevent overcrowding.
>>>>Doesn't even do that.  We need more jails.  We need a judicial system
>>>>that cares more about you and me than the bastards that commit crimes.
>>>
>>>Sounds nice doesn't it?  Feel good doesn't it?  Too bad it works worse
>>>than our present system.

No, nothing about this situation feels good.  And there's nothing about
the present system that can be construed as "working".

>>
>>What would you propose then?
>
>*I* don't have to propose ANYTHING!

And indeed, you aren't!

>Mike is the one proposing
>violations of human rights.  There are such things as the rights of the
>accused.  (I should have been more clear with my statement above, tho,
>sorry).

I'm not proposing violating ANYONE's rights.  I'm proposing paying
attentions to VICTIM's rights AT LEAST AS MUCH as the rights of
the accused.

Actually, the situation is even worse.  It's that we pay homage to the
non-existant rights of the CONVICTED!

And if you think the current system is working... well, I really don't
know how to respond to THAT piece of trash.  It's just plain ludicrous.

>
>>
>>And it is incredible that you you are so certain it would fail when
>>the level of prosecution Mike Haas speaks of isn't implemented.  Good grief,
>>we aren't supposed to be NICE to criminals!  Fear of the consequences can
>>be an excellent deterrent, providing that the 'consequeces' are right.
>
>Oh, effective.. perhaps.. Moral?  no way.  

Immoral?  To enforce consequences for actions?  I'll tell you
what, friend...If more folks accepted responsibility for their actions,
if they acknowledged that there even COULD be consequences for THEIR
IMMORAL behavior, we wouldn't be discussing this topic.

It's the whining...boo, hoo...we just CAN'T PUNISH bad people for
doing bad things...attitude that is giving power to these animals.
Yes, we can punish people for doing bad things.  It's immoral NOT TO.

>Check out Japan's judicial
>system.  Yes, they have a 95% conviction rate, yes they have a very low
>crime rate, and yes, they are continually guilty of human rights abuses
>within this same judicial system.  

Hey, get it through you're head...I'm not talking about abusing
anyone's rights.  I'm talking about no more plea-bargaining...no
more state mandates that require early release of violent criminals...
no more ultra-light sentences for rape, murder, violent crimes.

I'm talking about enforcing the laws that are on the books now.  I'm
talking about protecting the rights of innocent people.

I'm talking about re-establishing the FACT that when you commit\
violent crime, you yield most of your rights, give them up.
You should no longher have the right to walk among free men.
We have stopped metering out justice in this country.

I say to all of you... It is the utmost abuse of YOUR RIGHT TO FEEL SAFE
as a law-abiding citizen of this country that the legal system of this
country now operates for the CONVICTED criminal, and not to protect
YOU.

>
>Do you realize that if someone accuses you of something you didn't do, you
>have about a 1% chance of beating it (in Japan)?  

That's horrible.  I'm glad I don't live there.  But it has nothing to
do with what I'm talking about.  zilch.

I'm talking about CONVICTED, REPEAT OFFENDERS OF VIOLENT CRIME.  I'm
talking about cases where there is no doubt of the perpetrators guilt.

I'm talking about the exact OPPOSITE, actually... a legal system that
isn't willing to punish and incarcerate.

>
>>
>>>>All we really need for a jail is a barbed wire fence and armed guards at the
>>>>corners.  Anything else is too good for the scum.
>>>
>>>I could give numerous examples of people who fit in a grey area that you
>>>apparently dont beleive exists.  Another feel good solution?

We have a legal system that is charged with determining innocence
or guilt.  I believe that the accused is innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
But when proven guilty... they are guilty.  Until the system is
proven wrong (via appeal, most likely)...THAT PERSON IS A CONVICTED
CRIMINAL.  PERIOD.

You want the system to operate by the rules that a person is
INNOCENT EVEN AFTER BEING PROVEN GUILTY and I can't buy that.
That's not a system, but that's what we're moving toward and
it's not working.  Period.

>>
>>You cannot be a fence-sitter.  You have to make a choice.
>
>I don't have to send people convicted of involuntary manslaughter to a 
>prison of Mike Haas's description.  I know its a cliche, but doing the
>things Mike suggests would make the Judicial system as bad as the
>criminals.

Yep.  Pretty awful.  Keep those who commit crimes in jail.  Protect
the innocent.  Naw...morally, how can we permit THAT?

>Hell, we already have cops crossing the line... Wanna take a
>guess at what will happen if WE have a conviction rate of 95% and
>prisons that treat people like dogs?  Cops and others who abuse their power
>will have even more power to blackmail ordinary citizens.

Now we're convicting the police of being the crooks!

Y'know, we already HAVE a conviction rate of over 95% in this country.
That's because in almost all cases, the innocent are weeded out by
incredible amount of legal procedures, investigations etc. that
occur before a person gets to trial.

THAT part of the system works.  We apprehend 'em, we prosecute them
(although plea-bargaining often aborts the process here), but
the judicial system is so inneffective that they are released in
no time.

Over half of the states are under state mandate to periodically release
masses of prisoners, including those convicted of violent crime, due
to overcrowding.  THIS HAS TO STOP!

A recent case back east involved a man who raped a 14-year-old girl in
his house, video-taped the event, then showed other young kids in
the neighborhood the tapes.  (This is all true, I swear.  I can provide
references if necessary...I just don't have them at hand).

He was sentenced to 6 MONTHS OF WEEKENDS IN JAIL.  WEEKENDS IN JAIL.
WEEKENDS IN JAIL.  6 MONTHS.  HE RAPED A TEENAGER...

A woman in New York shot here fiancee' because he called off the
wedding.  The judge LET HER OFF because HE UNDERSTOOD WHY SHE
WAS SO EMOTIONALLY DISTRAUGHT!

We desperately need to take back our courts.

If you agree, inquire about the NRA's CrimeStrike program.  Started about
6 months ago, it is dedicated to identifying such morally-corrupt
abuses of our legal system and calling attention to the law-enforcement
officials, judges etc. involved in each specific case.  And I can tell you,
the incidents it brings to light are spine-chilling.  They defy
imagination.

Don't believe this "human-rights abuse" trash that Ezra is peddling.
No one is advocating any such thing.  That garbage serves only
one purpose...to make people like me sound evil, as though I just
want to be mean to our poor, misunderstood, child-abused inhabitants
of PRISON.

But don't believe me... go out and talk to a few victims.  Ask our
cops how THEY feel about the courts.

But not you, Ezra.  I recommend that you go talk with some of those
really cool people in prison.