From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: talk
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:19:53 GMT

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com#  writes:
 
# Again, it can't be emphasized too strongly that the notion that
# Jews are a race is not a malicious Nazi invention but a strident
# article of faith among many Jewish leaders throughout the ages,
# including Maimonides, Moses Hess (the ideological godfather of
# Zionism), and Ze'ev Jabotinsky (the ideological godfather of the
# branch of Zionism of which Likud is the current expression).

Only an ignorant moron or an antisemite would compare between
the racist idealogy of the Nazis and the concept of the unity
of the Jews as described by the people you mentioned. This is
your second blatantly antisemitic poster.

The Nazis considered Judaism to be, among other characteristics,
a biological phenomena which cannot be erased - that is why
they marked for execution even Jews who converted to Christianity,
or that had even one Jewish grandparent. That is totally different
from Judaism, which views being Jewish as a spiritual property,
which can be attained.

# The Torah is filled with hundreds of references to Jews as a
# racial and biological entity. Nor are these references peripheral
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bullcrap. I am used to Nazis saying things like that.

# to Judaism: on the contrary, "the seed of Abraham" constitutes
# the Torah's core myth.

What does this mean? What is the "Torah's core myth", Rabbi
Mcguire? The Torah is so complicated and multi-faceted that such
an expression like yours is meaningless.

# That these racial myths are still an active force can be seen in
# the fact that the Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard argued in a
# private letter that all Jews worldwide owe their supreme
# allegiance to "the race of Abraham." 

So Pollard is an authority on Judaism... oh, oh, Rabbi...

# Zionism defines a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother. That is a
# biological and genetic criterion. Christians, Muslims and
# Buddhists would never argue that one is a Christian, Muslim or
# Buddhist because one's mother is. 

You are out of your mind. First, Zionism has nothing to do with
determining who is Jewish. Second, Islam also determines 
religion like Judaism - by birth or by conversion. doesn't
the same go for Christianity? My parents are Jews. In order to
be regarded a Christian I would have to convert, would I not?
Buddhism is different than all these religions, I agree.

# Being a Christian, Muslim or
# Buddhist is a question of free intellectual and spiritual
# affirmation, not a matter of possessing the correct genes.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More NAZI propaganda. Everyone can convert to Judaism and it
is no different than any other religion in that sense.

# The argument that anyone in the world can convert to Judaism
# strikes me as somewhat bogus, even as a public relations gimmick
# devised with the recognition that racial notions of Jewishness
# haven't gone over very well with the non-Jewish world. 

Yeh! They have gone over so bad that Christianity and Islam are
based on them!

# In the
# real world, conversions are discouraged 

Bullcrap. Since the conversation is difficult, and since being
a Jew is difficult, would be converts are asked to consider if
they really want to go through with this.

# Jewish doctrine argues that the Messiah must be a descendant of
# David. Again, that is a biological and genetic criterion.

So does being a Jesus, ah, Rabbi?
 
# If Christianity and Islam have a more modern feel than Judaism,
# it may be because they revolted against the notion that "seed"
# and chosenness (in the sense of possessing a special connection
# to divine wisdom) are integrally linked. Free intellectual and
# personal choice may be a more viable framework for social
# organization in the nuclear age than tribalism or genetic
# determinism.

You make me laugh. Christianity began as a branch of Judaism and
modified because it could not draw any converts. Islam takes
a great deal from the Bible. We have surely seen the 
"modern feel" of the Catholic Church, which is repsonsible
to numerous bloodshed during its history. And most Islamic
based societies are certainly not closer to providing "free
intellectual and personal choice" and human rights to their
believers as you try to present the case.

As for the paragraph from Jabotinsky: first, I would like
to see the source (in Hebrew I guess). Second, he does not
speak neither for Judaism nor for most Jews.


-Danny Keren.