HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thursday, 27 Aug 1992 04:58:25 EDT
From: John G. Spragge <SPRAGGEJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Indecence [F>E]
 <1992Aug26.172423.27687@pandora.matrox.com>

In article <1992Aug26.172423.27687@pandora.matrox.com>, thood@corvus.matrox.com
(Thomas Hood) says:
>coted@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Cote Daniel) writes (unauth. translation):

>= if you were brave and calm enough and to admit to yourself that you
>= cannot live in a French-speaking society in the way you wish.  In Quebec
>= you live with francophones and you adapt yourself to the style of life
>= that the people around you choose.  You have the right to vote for the
>= party of your choice in elections.  You have the right to vote for or
>= against independence and you have the right to stay or leave... But once
>= your choice is made you live like a man, accepting the consequences of
>= your action.

What choice or action are we talking about? Obviously, some people are
extremely unhappy with Quebecois nationalism; although I think they'd
be smarter (given the way they feel) to live outside Quebec, they have a
right to live the way they want, and they have the right to express their
opinions of the government. Chronic discontent may not make much sense,
but anyone has the right to lie on a bed of nails if they want.

>>Le Quebec c'est deja un pays francophone dans nos coeurs et ca sera bientot
>>un pays reconnu a la grandeur de la planete.  Habitues-toi tout de suite a
>>vivre en francais mon vieux sinon tu vas etre malheureux...
>=
>= Quebec is already a francophone country in our hearts and it will soon
>= be a country known around the world.  Get used to living in French
>= right now my friend, or you'll be unhappy...

The business of "our hearts" bothers me, mainly because I can easily see
such passionate nationalism leading into a very nasty morass (I have
relatives in Northern Ireland). I find the sentence "Habitues toi..."
a particularly disturbing, mainly because while I fully comprehend the
pleasure of stuffing something down the throat of obnoxious people who
refer to my culture as "nazi" or South African", I value my language and
culture a little to much to want to use it for a gag.

>>Cela etant dit, ais-je le droit de te dire que tu nous fait chier avec ton
>>attitude hautaine !?
>>Daniel Cote              /\
>=
>= Having said this, do I have the right to tell you that your haughty
>= attitude is a pain in the ass?

You have that right, but what's the point?

>
>[end of translation]
>--
>Thomas Hood
>thood@matrox.com

disclaimer: Queen's University supplies me with computer services, not
            my opinions.

John G. Spragge
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: RE: Wells
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:41:42 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <12745@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>
>I don't know if Wells himself is a red-necked bigot, although the
>frequent anti-Quebec statements he often makes leave me "perplexe". He
>probably just like creating trouble. I don't think he's intelligent
>enough to realize that a lot of his supporters (like the employee in a
>K-Mart in Ottawa who had "Clyde Wells for Prime Minister" written on
>every receipt given to customers) are real "orangistes". I was reading
>an article on the mail he receives from his supporters accross Canada,
>and a good portion of it was classified by his staff as "fanatics".
>
Quelques extraits d'un article sur Clyde Wells dans _l'Actualite'_,
numero du 1er septembre 1992, p.32 (reproduits sans permission):

"En examinant la correspondance, je trouve assez peu de ces propos
fanatiques pour demander a une secretaire s'il y a des lettres
hostiles au Quebec.  Elle me conduit dans un debarras, ou sont cachees
d'autres lettres -- environ 15 % de l'ensemble -- classees sous la
rubrique 'radicals'... Celles-ci sont genantes.  Elles viennent des
extremistes, de l'Association for the Preservation of English in Canada
ou de la Loyal Orange Association of Ontario.  Wells sait qu'une
bonne partie de son appui lui vient de cette frange du pays et s'en
dit 'tres decu'.
   "Il prend un soin meticuleux a ce qu'aucun de ses gestes ne puisse
etre interprete comme antifrancais ou antiquebecois.  Lui qui,
d'habitude, repond a ceux qui lui ecrivent, dit n'avoir jamais repondu a
un radical ou meme a un adversaire du bilinguisme...
   "On cherche en vain dans les propos de Clyde Wells de l'hostilite
a l'endroit du Quebec ou des francophones...
   "(Yves) Fortier (ancien ambassadeur du Canada aux Nations unies)
voit Wells comme un homme cultive, 'un erudit meme'."

This hardly sounds to me like someone too stupid to realise that
part of his support comes from the red-neck fringe.

How do you know that the K-Mart employee is part of the 15 % of
Wells' supporters who are anti-Quebec fanatics, and not part of
the 85 % who support him because (rightly or wrongly) they see
him as more principled and more honest than other politicians?

I think that you, like many francophones, overestimate the
importance of the Orange Lodge in the Ontario of today.  Michel
Vastel, when he was the Ottawa correspondent for le Devoir, used
to irritate me with his frequent references to "l'Ontario orangiste."
I grew up in a region of Ontario where the Orange Lodge used to
be very influential.  Today its remaining members are mostly very
old, and its bigoted views are very marginal.  I wish one could say
the same about groups such as la Societe St-Jean-Baptiste de Montreal.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Fete Nationale du Quebec
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<BttnwF.MKu@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> <1992Aug31.150508.2052@csi.uottawa.ca>
	<Btx74v.DG9@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:50:12 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Btx74v.DG9@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

   Obviously, before 1976 (1980?), I have not seen any anglophone
   fighting for the right of francophones out of Quebec.  They
   tolerated some situation, but never promoted the French.  ANd if
   some did, they were some few that they were like talking in desert.

Pierre Trudeau, perhaps?

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Xref: sparky can.politics:6199 soc.culture.canada:6105
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Tom Gray who is ra*
Date: 26 Aug 92 12:54:34 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

The day tom gray will accept the fact he is racist, maybe I will
answer to his racist postings.

In article <12671@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>A challenge went out to one  of the frequent posters to this net
>to support his constant assertions of anglo-intolerance. He was

constant?  I just pointed many historical facts.  I can't change history
for your racist pleasure.

A challenge?  Do you know what is a challenge?  Doing the best you can,
Not responding to racism based assumptions from someone eliminating
historical data to better improve his position in a debate.

>asked to support his assertions in the face of evidence in history
>of cooperation between the two groups.

Cooperation?  Before 1976, it was direct domination in many jobs.
You're kidding, don't you?

>
>Well Denis has not been able to reply so I hope we have seen the
>last of his Canada bashing posts with references to Anglo
>"Master Races" like the "NAZIs"
>

You forget, in your racist limited mind, that this was in a response
to a posting comparing the Quebec laws to South Africa's.


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Vient de paraitre : Andre Jarret et ses Ancetres
\_.-===  En vente par l'auteur                      Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English school: quotes
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:45:04 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Universite de Montreal

steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:

>From article <plante.715113702@iros1>, by plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante):

>> By quoting this, I suppose you agree with it. 

>  It is a step in the right direction.

>  Quoting somebody doesn't mean one agrees, necessarily, at all. One
>  may be testing or provoking other peoples reactions.

>  What do you think the nationalist reaction would have been to a
>  report calling for total freedom of choice?

They would have said: "They haven't learned anything!".

>> 
>> So, you insult quebecois because they support discrimination based on
>> the education of the parents on the question of accessibility of english
>> schools, 

>  I'm sorry if those people feel insulted because I don't like their
>  discriminatory attitudes.

You were using inflammatory language. 

>> yet you would support discrimination based on country of origin,

>  I am in favour of total freedom of choice.

>  I do not support discrimination.

>  I see the Chambers' Task Force recommendation as a step in the right
>  direction.

In what direction?  Less discrimination?  They do not recommand less
discrimination, but worst discrimination.

I am sure you say that this is a step in the right direction because YOU
could get YOUR children educated in english.  And I am sure you would get 
less vocal about education in Quebec once you get your children in english
school. 

>> which, IMHO, is worst (think about it, all immigrants now have the
>> same rights as the majority in Quebec; should we change the law to do
>> this, an immigrant from, say, Germany, would not have the same rights
>> as one from the U.K. or the US.).

>  Is this any different from the current law which does this: an English
>  family from, say, England, does not have the same rights as one whose
>  parents were educated in English in Canada?

>  That sounds like "discrimination based on country of origin" to me.

>  Thank you for your support! :-)

Your getting good at distorting the facts inorder to support your views
(like the comparison you made between South Africa and Quebec, which is 
totally irrelevant).

We are not talking about the same thing.  In every country in the world,
there is discrimination between immigrants and natives (like, a polish
immigrant cannot get his children educated in polish in the land of
the free, the U.S.).  What the Chambers report is proposing is 
discrimination between immigrants.  Now, in Quebec, there is no
discrimination between immigrants.

Frederic Plante
 
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: rwood@lance.carleton.ca (Richard Wood)
Subject: Re: asymmetrical federalism
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Distribution: can.politics
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:20:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.001316.17206 Gerald Olchowy writes:

>In article <1992Aug27.194008.1402  Marc Frappier writes:
>>Why is asymmetrical federalism so unacceptable to the rest of Canada?
>>Why is the devolution of powers to Quebec perceived as a "privilege"?
>>
>If there is significant asymmetrical federalism, you will have members
>of the Quebec National Assembly voting and legislating on an issue
>as it pertains to Quebec, and Quebec MP's in Ottawa voting on the same
>issue as it pertains to the rest of Canada not including Quebec.
>

Assymmetrical federalism has been operating in Canada's Parliament for
a long time now.  For example, Quebec has it's own Pension Plan and 
contributes nothing to the 'Canada Pension Plan'.  Nevertheless, Quebec 
MP's vote on issues relating to the federal plan in the Commons.  We
have even had Quebec MPs administring the plan as Ministers of Health 
and Welfare (Monique Begin for example)

We are going to see a lot more of this in the future, I'll bet.
--
Richard Wood  :  rwood@ccs.carleton.ca 
       Computing and Communications Services
               Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada K1S 5B6
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Cultural/Religious Events (was: Fete Nationale du Quebec)
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:36:47 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1502

From article <CLAMEN.92Sep2171925@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>, by clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen):

> For instance, it would be hard (some might say mutually-exclusive) to
> be a good Christian and have a religious Easter and be a good Jew
> and celebrate Passover (last year they were coincident, even!).

Just an aside:-

The Passover was an important event for both the Christian and Jewish
faith. It is possible for a good Christian to join in the celebrations
for Passover (Apart from the sombre remembrance of the Crucifixion; the
Resurrection is certainly something Christians celebrate.)
It may be a little harder for a Jew to celebrate Christ's death and
resurrection. (No racist or anti-semitic sentiments intended.)

I grew up in a Brethren/Baptist/Evangelical tradition. I had then, and
have today, many Jewish friends. I am not often invited, but I have
occasionally joined in the celebration of events in the Jewish calendar.

I have also taken part in both "halves" of an Indian marriage and a
number of other events of significance to various cultures and
religions.

Isn't the human race fascinating?

N.B. This thread doesn't belong in can.politics - it's just an
     observation.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English schools
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:08:51 GMT
Organization: Matrox Ltd.

beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

>>French-speaking) society.  Limiting the freedom of choice of immigrants
>>has been justified according to the principle of French predominance.

>And what is wrong with French predominance in Quebec?  There are 9
>other provinces and USA for an immigrant prefering English predominance.

There is nothing wrong with French predominance.  That was part of my
argument.  It is the goal of nationalists and the majority of Quebecers,
and it is valid, even if anglophones are indifferent.  It can be a valid
reason to limit individual rights.  However, the reasoning behind the
limits must be explicit; otherwise, the limitations are arbitrary.

--
Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com
Montreal
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: robinson@mdivax1.uucp (Jim Robinson)
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Reply-To: robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Robinson)
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:06:55 GMT

Francois Audet (audetf@Software.Mitel.COM) wrote:
>In article <12720@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>>Eventually the forces of toleration prevailed (as they always
>>do in Canada) and the ultramontanists and the Orangemen were
>>forgotten.
>
>... and so was french in the West.
>
>And if the orangmen are forgotten, why do we have a Reform Party?

We have a Reform Party because a significant percentage of people in
Western Canada do not believe that their part of the country has been
getting a fair shake in confederation. Sort of like how we have a PQ and a
BQ because a significant percentage of Quebecers do not believe that their
province has been getting a fair shake in confederation.

>Why is there hords of red-necked biggots supporting Clyde Wells?

Clyde Wells has a number of supporters because he articulates a particular
vision that few other mainstream politicians share. A vision whereby the
provinces are equal and none have any special status.  Only Francois can
tell us why Wells' supporters, and I would suppose Wells himself, are
"red-necked bigots".
-- 
Jim Robinson
robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com
{ubc-cs!van-bc,uunet}!mdivax1!robinson
From: mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca (Marc Frappier)
Subject: Re: asymmetrical federalism
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: can
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 18:55:08 GMT

>In article (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>]They why are you a sovereignist...Quebec's per capita provincial debt
>]is worse than Alberta, BC, and Ontario...if it were to separate, it
>]would have a worse debt burden than the rest of Canada per capita,
>]and separation would undoubtedly cause interest rates in Canada and
>]Quebec to be higher and perhaps significantly higher, making that
>]debt even more burdensome.

Anyway, you do not decide to form a country on that basis only.  Should Canada
join the US because they have a smaller debt per cap.?  An essential element in
the success of a country is a strong social conscensus.  Canada lacks it.
This is the problem we have to solve as a society.  There are two political 
visions of Canada:  a strong central government for english provinces, a strong
provincial government for Quebec.  We need a political structure reflecting
this.  Asymmetry is a solution.  It seems unacceptable politically for
english canadians.  Bourassa's strategy is to negociate "under the table"
an asymmetrical federalism through administrative agreement.  It does not
generate any emotional debate.  It is already started (Cullen-Couture in
immigration, pension plan, GST. etc).  Why not reflect in the constitution
the administrative reality?
-- 
Marc Frappier				| e-mail: mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca
Department of Computer Science          |
University of Ottawa                    | phone : (613) 564-9232
Ottawa, Canada, K1N 6N5                 | fax   : (613) 564-9486
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: A bilingual West
Date: 31 Aug 92 00:17:40 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <28AUG92.15383525.0083@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:
>
>Since the total population of the Prairie Provinces is now about
>4.5 million, I think Denis's figure of 7 million francophones in a
>bilingual West is a little on the high side, even given the legendary
>procreative powers of pre-Quiet Revolution French Canadians.
>
>
My 7 millions is the number of descendants of Quebecois of French origin
and not speaking French now as a mother language.  If half of migration
has been directed to west, west would have been francophone and migration
from Europe would have had a different effect.

>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Xref: sparky can.politics:6250 soc.culture.canada:6157
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Has Denis Been Struck Mute?was: Has Your Busy Schedule Kept You From This - Denis? was Re: How about this - Denis!?
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:44:20 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <12681@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>Remember when you said that there was no vote on Confederation in what
>was to become Quebec. Rememeber when you had to admit that there had been a vote
>in the legislature and that it passed. Remember how you said that this was
>the work of the anglo's who must have imposed this on the helpless French
>Canadian. Now that was disgusting even for you Denis.

That vote passed with a majority of ONE voice. At that time, the
Catholic Church was saying that it would be a "peche mortel" to vote
no to the Confederation.

After, there was of course the elections where the Conservatives of
G.E. Cartier (pro-Constitution) were facing the Liberals who had a
much more decentralized version of what Canada should look like.  The
Conservatives were elected in Quebec, a lot because of the Church's
infamous influence on the people at the time. Remember the "Le Ciel
est bleu, l'Enfer est rouge...".


-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
                                      Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
Xref: sparky can.politics:6440 soc.culture.canada:6284
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Canada and Boer War (was Re: History of North America)
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:59:49 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <03SEP92.18541088.0221@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:
>were Canadians volunteering to serve with the British forces in
>South Africa, but this was not what British Colonial Secretary
>Joseph Chamberlain wanted.  On October 6, 1899 he wrote Governor-
>General Lord Minto: "We do not intend to accept any offer from
>volunteers.  We do not want the men and the whole point of this offer
>would be lost unless it were endorsed by the Government of the
>Colony (sic) and applied to an organized body of the Colonial forces."

I would say the _Colony_ here is South Africa, so (sic) is irrelevant.

>Chamberlain wanted not military support, but a show of Imperial
>solidarity.
>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Quebec renouvele dans une Amerique renovee
\_.-===                                                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
Xref: sparky can.politics:6261 soc.culture.canada:6162