From: aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Islamic stories...
Date: 1 Sep 1992 15:23:56 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

->Article 68194 of talk.religion.misc:
->From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson)


->
->In article <l9q6soINNfur@pollux.usc.edu> aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed  
->Abd-Allah) writes:
->> >From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
->>  
->> >	The earth was made in 2 days (41:9)
->> >	all things in it      4 days (41:10)
->> >	the heavens in        2 days (41:12)
->>                 ---------------------------
->> >		total =       8 days	  
->> 
->> Mr. Johnson posted the verses which you have again paraphrased.  He also
->> noted that this is one set of verses which he could not understand  
->except
->> as a contradiction.  These verses, taken by themselves may or may not  
->mean
->> a total of eight days certainly.  Just as the verses mentioned above,  
->when
->> taken separately, can be confusing.  Here is a simple analogy which  
->might
->> make you smile :-), and yet I hope you see my point - I am interested in
->> what Mr. Johnson will say.
->> 
->> 	Ahmed takes 5 minutes to take his shower.
->> 	Ahmed takes 7 minutes to boil his eggs.
->> 	Ahmed takes 10 minutes to eat his eggs.
->> 
->> You and Mr. Johnson would conclude that these three sentences MUST  
->describe
->> a total of 22 minutes of poor Ahmed's life.  Well.  As it turns out,  
->Ahmed
->> put the eggs on the stove and then immediately went to the shower - thus
->> wisely saving time.  The actual time spent is 17 minutes, mmmmm?
->>
->     Actually, I did think of your analogy, but I don't think that it  
->applies very well to these passages. Firstly, since you didn't post Asad's  
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here we must then disagree: this analogy holds quite well.

->translation of these verses, I'm going to assume that Dawood and Asad are  
->in agreement as to what the text _says_ (if there is a serious  

They do, more or less.  And incidentally, I bought a copy of Dawood's 
translation.

->disagreement here as to the _text_, please post how Asad translates it).  
->Also, since Dawood's translation numbers every third or fourth verse only,  
->I may occasionally not get the break between verses quite right, but as  
->long as we read the whole set of passages through, we shouldn't lose any  
->context. Now, verse 41:9 [Dawood] reads as follows:
-> 
->    [41:9]
->    Say: 'Do you indeed disbelieve in Him who created
->    the earth in two days? And do you make other gods
->    his equals? The Lord of the Universe is He.'
->
->     IMO, this verse asserts that the earth was created by God in two  
->days. Straightforward. Verse 41:10 [Dawood] then reads:

Correct - or to be precise, I agree :-)

->    [41:10]
->    He set upon the earth mountains towering high above
->    it. He pronounced his blessing upon it, and in four
->    days provided it with sustenance for all alike.
->
->     IMO, this verse is a continuation of 41:9, i.e. after God creates the  
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First, you are relying here strictly on your opinion, by your own admission.
Second, later on in your article, you point to the word 'then' in [41:11]
as indicative of a sequence of actions.  Here, in verse [41:10], this
word is missing.  There is nothing in [41:9-10] which conclusively ties
the two verses as serial events.  Muslim scholars understand verse [41:10]
to be a more 'detailed' exposition of the earth's formation, and include
the two days of verse [41:9] as part of the four in [41:10].  That is their
understanding.

Let me tell you what I honestly feel: these three verses do not give a strict
sequence of actions - explicitly at least.  However, implicitly, it would be
easy for someone to come along and link all three as you have.  I myself once
did.  But the bottom line is that this is not what the verses say.  How then,
to resolve the possible confusion or the 'ambiguity' (though I believe there
is a reason why God placed these verses the way they are)?  The answer lies
in what I've posted before: the Qur'an is its own best commentary.  Since it
is elsewhere stated that six days is the total, then so be it.

->earth, He sets toweringly high mountains upon it, blesses it, and in four  
->days provides it with sustenance for all. First the earth is created  
->(taking two days), and then the mountains are set upon it, etc. The earth  
->exists prior to the mountains, the blessing, and the sustenance. There  
->does not appear to be any sense of the earth and the mountains being  
->created simultaneously; rather, the earth is a separate thing from the  
->mountains (which are set _on_ the earth, and tower high _above_ the  
->earth), and appear only _after_ the earth is created. The "four days"  
->refers to the amount of time that it took to provide the earth with  
->sustenance. Again, there is no sense that the earth is being created _and_  
->being provided with sustenance for all simultaneously; rather, the  
->provisioning appears to be taking place _after_ earth's creation.
->I still agree with Robert here. Two days to create the earth, and then  
->four days to set mountains upon it and provision it. Verses 41:11-12  
->[Dawood] then say:
->
->    [41:11-12]
->    Then, turning to the sky, which was but a cloud of
      ^^^^

One last note: the arabic word "thumma" has two meanings - "then" and
"moreover" (Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary).  The second meaning
was chosen in Asad's and Ali's translation - they understood this verse
to be in parallel with the above two (ie heavens and earth creation
sequences occuring in parallel).

->    vapor, He said to it and to the earth: 'Come forward
->    both, willingly or perforce.'
->    'We will come willingly,' they answered. In two days
->    He formed the sky into seven heavens, and to each
->    heaven He assigned its task. We decked the lowest
->    heaven with brilliant stars and guardian comets. Such
->    is the design of the Mighty One, the All-knowing.
->
->     IMO, the use of the word "then" implies a clear break here, in order  
->to bring the earth and the sky (the sky not yet being complete) together.  
->Two more days are required to complete the sky, and this work on the sky  
->is performed _after_ the creation, mountain-setting, and provisioning of  
->the earth. So, two plus four plus two still makes eight.
->        
->> Ok, I hope the analogy made its point.  However, in order for it to be
->> applicable to this situation, there should be something in the Qur'an
->> telling us the total time.  As you and Mr. Johnson have noted, there
->> are many verses describing the total as six days.  For me, that is  
->enough:
->> verses [41:9-12] speak of a sequence but no total - one can get the  
->wrong
->> total by simple addition of the days described here.
->>
->     I understand, but as I read 41:9-12, I see a sequence of events, one  
->following the other, rather than several events occurring simultaneously.  

But to read them as simultaneous actions is certainly possible.  And since
these verses are not the sum and total of the Qur'an, you must look 
elsewhere to settle the possible confusion.

->I agree that verses 10:3, 11:7, and 7:54 say that the creation occurred in  
->six days, but I also think that that differs from verses 41:9-12.
->
->> But I don't want to
->> squirm out of this as someone might squirm out of an equivalent  
->situation
->> like, say, with the Bible and its problems.  So let us ask an even  
->stronger
->> question to settle this once and for all:  Does Allah imply anywhere in
->> the Qur'an of SIMULTANEITY between various actions during creation?
->> Consult your copy of the Qur'an:
->> 
->> 	[79:27-30]
->> 	Are you the more difficult to create or is it the
->> 	sky above?  Allah has built it: On high has He raised
->> 	its canopy, and He has given it order and perfection;
->> 	He did make dark its night, and He brought out its light.
->> 	And earth, after that, did He spread out.
->> 
->> The earth was in existence as the sky was being formed according to
->> this verse.  Only after the actions described above had taken place
->> did God 'spread out' or extend the surface of the earth.  The 
->> implication is that certain stages of creation of the earth and
->> the heavens took place concurrently.
->
->     OK, Dawood's translation of 79:27-30 reads as follows:
->
->     [79:27-30]
->     Are you harder to create than the heaven which He has
->     built? He raised it high and fashioned it, giving 
->     darkness to its night and brightness to its day. After
->     that He spread the earth,
->
->     The wording is a little different, but I don't think that the meaning  
->has been lost. However, in order to understand the context, one must  
->continue a little further.
->
->     [79:31-34?]
->     and, drawing water from its depth, brought forth its
->     pastures. He set down the mountains, for you and for
->     your cattle to delight in.
->
->     I don't think that your conclusions follow from the text, Ahmed. IMO,  
->verses 79:27-29 discuss the formation of the heaven. Since these verses  
->speak of night and day, I think that it's safe to assume that this is the  
->"lowest" heaven described in 41:12. After this heaven is finished, verse  

Actually, I would strongly disagree there: I am in the midst of my own research
into the distinctions made between 'heavens', 'lowest heaven' and 'seven 
heavens'.  The context in this verse does not indicate whether it is the 
lowest heaven in question - my guess is no.

->79:30 then says that God "spread the earth". I agree that this could mean  
->that earth was first created, then the "lowest" heaven was built and  
->completed, and then the earth was spread out (sort of like a blanket,  
->which must exist before it can be spread out). But I don't get any sense  
->from these verses that the building of the "lowest" heaven and the  
->spreading out of the earth are occurring concurrently. Perhaps you are  

Look at verse [79:30] carefully.  God used the words "and after that" or
in Arabic "ba'da dhalik".  This has only one meaning, unlike "thumma".
This most certainly does strongly imply a concurrency between the
formation of the earth and the 'heavens' since as you note above, one
spreads out something which is already there.

->thinking that the spreading out of the earth and the building of the  
->_other_ six "higher" heavens are what is occurring concurrently? Of  
->course, that is possible, but these verses are completely silent on that  
->issue, and so offer no proof as to the truth or falsehood of that  
->possibility. 
->     What seems far more serious, however, are the implications of verses  
->79:31-34?. It appears from these verses that at least some of the  
->provisioning, as well as the setting down of the mountains upon the earth,  
->are performed _after_ the building of the "lowest" heaven. This appears to  
->_reverse_ the order laid out in 41:9-12. Another contradiction, perhaps?

Actually, that would seem to be strong evidence that "thumma" in verse
[41:11] means "moreover" and not "then".  Otherwise, Dawood's translation
creates a contradiction which does not exist.

[stuff deleted]

->johnson@offroad.chem.wisc.edu

What I have tried to say here may not be acceptable to you - most especially
if you do not speak Arabic.  However, I believe that an understanding of 
Arabic is not necessary to understand these three verses - just someone to
remind you that this is one case where more than one translation/interpretation
helps.  If one reads these verses your way, a contradiction arises in at least
two places by your analysis.  Your way involves some assumptions, however,
which are NOT borne out conclusively by the Arabic text (it helps to have more
then one translation, by the way).  I believe one Mr. William Hamblin posted
a few days ago saying that he saw no contradiction - and then he cited some
of the Arabic.  Perhaps he and other nonMuslims who know Arabic can post a
critique of these verses.

As to reading it the way Muslim scholars have read it, note that they justify
their interpretation with other parts of the Qur'an.  You see the
other verses saying "six days" presenting a contradiction IF you make
certain assumptions about [41:9-12]; they see these other verses ("six days")
as clarifying [41:9-12] - with no assumptions.

Ahmed Abd-Allah