HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:01:56 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>Polyconstanantal scarasm is another Greek trait it appears.

 Polyconstanantal stupidity and polyprostitutical idiocity
 are your traits. 

>No he wasn't
>an ignorant person, he was a clever person arguing from a certain point
>of view, just like Demosthenes. You tell us we must reject Demosthenes
>because he's biassed, but then turn round and tell us to accept
>Isocrates as if he was not biassed. Isn't it just the case that
>Isocrates' bias fits yours and Demosthenes' doesn't? Or perhaps
>Isocrates was clever enough simply to take you in with his rhetoric.

 What the heck has Demosthenes to do with ancient Macedonians?
 Is your brain functioning? (Trivial question).

>Andy

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: Chrys Pelegris <chrysp@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
X-To: A.T. FEAR
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:02:29 GMT

AF>From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
  >Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
  >Organization: Keele University, England

AF>I'm sorry you think there are dead certainties in ancient history. This
  >shows a very naive attitude towards historiography in general. All I am
  >saying is that if our ancient sources are read without any modern
  >political preconceptions as to the origins of the ancient Macedonians,
  >they most naturally suggest that Macedonian was a distinct language to
  >Greek not a dialect of Greek. Moreover modern research supports this
  >reading. Of course when you start with the prejudice that the
  >Macedonians were Greeks your perception may alter rapidly...

    You are either quite dumb or quite blind.  I recommend you take a look
    at some of the artifacts found in Macedonia and explain to me why the
    language it is written with is Koine, or ANCIENT GREEK!  Oh don't tell
    me, that was Macedonian not Greek right?

AF>And you are not? The data from antiquity we have is that Demosthenes
  >dislikes Philip, was a skilled orator, and said Philip was a barbarian.
  >I have suggested that he wouldn't use an argument that would make him
  >look foolish (after all he did want to win), you I assume that he used
  >what to you is a patently nonsensical argument. Which of those
  >interpretations seems more affected by modern prejudice?

     And just because ONE man was against Philip of Macedon, that is your
     entire argument as to why Macedonians were not Greeks..? Sigh..

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chrys Pelegris  |  ===__-+-                          WWIVNet:35@4650
    Toronto Canada  | Internet: chrysp@zooid.guild.org   FidoNet:1:250/338
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * I'm not a stranger...only a friend you haven't met.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Subject: SKOPJE'S DESPERATE TACTICS
Reply-To: branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis)
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:29:29 GMT

=========================================================================
Radio Belgrade transmitting to the U.S. on November 14, 1992, 22:00 ECT

   Publishing company "Detska radost" (translated: children joy) from
Skopje recently published a poster, a map of (as they called it):
"Whole Macedonia". On this map a border of Macedonia cuts a part of
South East Serbia, then it goes eastward into Rodopi mountains and river
Nestos, then southward to Olimpus, cutting it into half. It includes
Thessaloniki, also Halkidiki peninsula and island Thassos.
=========================================================================

I would like to thank Skopjians for this gift...
They really help to prove the Greek suspicions
about the expansionistic ambitions of recycled
communists regime in Skopje.....

Spiros
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10745 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9603 soc.culture.europe:9684
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:34:47 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <BxzArI.M8o@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
> 
>  I do not ignore different arguments.  I only ignore silly arguments, which
>  are not based on historical evidence.

Yet all the arguments presented *have* been buttressed with ancient evidence.
Read the review of Borza in AJP.

>  Speculations are by no means
>  historical evidence.

Except when the speculation is 'the ancient macedonians were Greek'
apparently, this specualtion oddly has the status of an a priori truth
before the argument begins


>  I have questioned the motives of persons who are
>  trying to make their living by benefiting from a political situation.

Of course it just might be that Prof. Borza takes interest in a
fascinating part of history, but that may be an eccentric interpretation
of the motivations of a professional ancient historian....

> 
>  The arguments that you have presented so far, are a collection of isolated
>  clues or hints.  By continuously ignoring solid historical evidence,

Where is this solid evidence I have ignored? Most of my posting have
dealt with evidence presented by the Greek side of the argument and the
erroneous interpretations put on it. 

> and > by hypothesizing on things that you want to prove, you are only
>discrediting > yourself and your profession.  >

I have suggested what I believe to be the most plausible interpretation
of the evidence we have available.  Unfortunately for the manufacturers
of slogans (though fortunately for the rest of us), black and white
proof is just not an option in historical debate.  It might be as well
for those on the other side to realise the status of their 'proof' is no
greater than what they call my 'speculations' or 'hypothesises.  The
bulk of the evidence I don't think is in question - the important
question is which interpretation seems more reasonable, and as of yet
I've seen nothing to make me think I'm wrong, though as ever I'm willing
to do so if some evidence turns up.  The only discredit in this argument
seems to lie with the Greek government which prostitutes the history of
its forefathers for modern political motives. 


>>Sad really as I would of thought that
>>one of the greatest contributions Greek philosophy made to the world was
>>to show us the need to question our prejudices and bigotries and that
>>the world is often not as simple as it seems.
> 
>  You thought correctly, but you haven't practiced it the right way.  The need
>  to question should not be a one-way process. 

Then why do most Greek posters assume it is. Slogans are supported by
bad evidence and anyone who dares to question this is denounced as
naive, mad, brainwashed, a Turk, and so on... Doesn't this perhaps seem
a little one-sided?

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:44:02 GMT


	Stuff deleted ---------

>
>Your logic puzzles me!  So, because the drawing (or a similar one) of the
>Vergina sun was used before, it is not a symbol of Macedonia.
>Therefore, anybody can use it without implying anything.  I don't know
>about you, but when I see a swastica (sp?) I think of Hitler, eventhough
>the same symbol was used in ancient India and ancient Greece (I think).

	It is an ancien Greek symbol. The verticle line symbolises
the spirit the horizontal the matter. And their union as the cross
symbolises life the extra lines are there to show the spinning ie the
union it self. The only diffrence from the ancien Greek symbol is
that it "turned" the other way.

>Also, when I see a cross I think of christianity, even though the same
>symbol was used since pre-historic times.  Despite its history, the 
>Vergina sun today is associated with the Macedonian dynasty.  And anybody
>that is using it is trying to associate themselves with ancient Macedonia.
>Anybody that can not see this is naive.  And I don't think you are, Andy.
>
>Regards,
>--
>Constantinos Varnavas
>University of Illinois

	 They have published a new map of the greater "Makedonia". It is bigger now and includes the island of Thasos !!! Could it be because there is some
oil there ? Maybe they are pushed by somebody that go as far as they can and
given the chance they will carve up North Greece with somebody.
	George

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10582 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9520 soc.culture.europe:9549
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 16 Nov 92 11:15:07 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov16.022712.27575@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD):
> 
> Here we go again. The same person, the same tape. Time and
> again I see this proposterous claim (Macedonias during the
> classic, etc times were not Greek), but no hard evidence.
> Why? Is it because none could be substansiated in the past?
> Personal reasons?
> 
> "Abyss the soul of man..."
> 
> Panayotis


Unfortunately, despite the above remarks, the ethnic status of the
ancient Macedonians has been disputed for at least 100 years and
probably longer - alas I have no access to earlier historians at the
moment, any one know what Grote said on this subject? As for hard
evidence we could think about the fact that the ancient Greeks
themselves, and not only those opposed to Macedonian expansion such as
Demosthenes, but also philoMacedonians such as Isocrates, did not regard
the Macedonians as Greek and surely they were in a better position to
know that than modern day ideologues.  We then have the ancient sources
suggesting that the Macedonian language was not Greek, something
supported by modern philological investigation.  In terms of archaeology
the Sindos burials from the late archaic period show strong Balkan
(Thracian or Paeonian?) features which again might be suggestive of the
origins of the ancient Macedonians.  I could go on, but think this is
enough to show the question is at least an open one.  In fact the only
preposterous stance on this issue is the one which unthinkingly asserts
that the ancient Macedonians were unproblematically Greek. 

I'm interested that those taking the Greek government's propaganda line
on this issue frequently seem to labour under the delusion that those
who disagree with them have personal problems. However perhaps this
tells us more about this group than their opponents. My only problem is
that as an ancient historian I dislike seeing my subject prostituted for
modern political aims especially when the outcome of this is human
misery and alas an ever increasing liklihood of war.

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos)
Subject: Re: The manipulators at M.I.L.S.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:27:18 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Bielefeld, Technische Fakultaet.

In article <1992Nov8.130149.9809@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
|> Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos (iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de) writes:
|> >Well Brian, did you ever here of weapon dealers from Germany (or any other)?
|> >Did you ever think there might be some more weapons in Macedonia than just "
|> >two tanks and 23 rifles supposedly purchased recently from Bulgaria"? There
|> >is no UN embargo against Macedonia, so there is for sure enough gas for 
|> >their tanks.
|> 
|> 
|> But it's quite understandable that Macedonia wants to arm itself.
|> I would too with such a neighbour in the north.
|> -- 
|> Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se

We can only hope, that they want to use their arms for defense and not for offense (I am afraid of Macedonia and Greece getting involved in an oncoming Balcan war...).

Panos Tsiantopoulos.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10816 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9668 soc.culture.europe:9744
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 22 Nov 92 16:57:03 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov20.201305.22558@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis):
> In article <By0Jyo.D6o@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>>
>>They were speaking Greek...
>>Which doesn't prove they were Greek at all...
>>                              ... The above argument proves nothing
>>about the racial status of the Epirotes 
>            ^^^^^^
> 
>  Here you prove the assertion about schizoid...!!!
> 
>  Didn't Prof. Errington, which I quoted, said that we can not verify
>  their racial origin and that this question is historically unprofitable???


Yes, but you quoted Hammond on the epigraphy of the Epirotes as evidence
that nomenclature could be used to determine the Macedonians' racial background.
I agree with Errington that this sort of speculation is dull in the
context of ancient history. The problem is when revisionist historians
start to use such things to back up modern politically motivated claims,
reaching in your case I think to the justification of the destruction of
an entire country.

Please be consistent. Either use evidence like this as an argument for
being able to prove racial origins, or like Errington reject it. Once
again if you persist in having your cake and eating it people will get
terribly confused about whose the schizoid and we wouldn't want that
would we?

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:40:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxwFv9.Ltq
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Andy,

Your argument revolves around the premise that the Macedonians were not
Greeks.  I believe that they were.  Gregory Dandoulakis in his article
offered ample proof.  Given our disagreement on the main premise of our
argument, the discussion is fruitless and, therefore, I see no reason
to continue it.  I can't help wonder, though, about your motives to
ALWAYS take opposite sites on ALL Greek positions.

Sincerely,
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
From: gs@doc.ic.ac.uk (G Stoikos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: A question to A. T. Fear
Date: 18 Nov 1992 14:49:55 -0000
Organization: Department of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak2.doc.ic.ac.uk


I would like to ask Dr. Fear if he could
tell us the nationality of Aristotle.
I am just curiousm to know .....


George Stoikos
Dept. of Computer Science
Imperial College, London 
England
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greece reacts sharply to Skopje map of 'Greater Macedonia'
Date: 20 Nov 92 02:03:05 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <Bxxv6v.Aqx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
 > 
 >  Here's something interesting.  
Yes, interesting indeed!

 > 	Government spokesman Vassilis Magginas said the map, published
 > Saturday in the Skopje newspaper Detoka Radost, was a provocation and
 > proved that the former Yugoslav republic had expansionist designs
 > against Greece.
In another article we find:
 >    Publishing company "Detska radost" (translated: children joy) from
 > Skopje recently published a poster, a map of (as they called it):
 > "Whole Macedonia".

Now, what is it, a newspaper or a publishing company?  And was it a poster
or part of a newspaper?  Seeing these completely different accounts from
Athens and Belgrad I distrust both.

On another track, some German groups still publish maps that have large
parts of Europe as part of Germany.  Does this mean the regime has
expansionist designs on the parts not yet covered by current Germany?
In that case Germany should be expelled from the EEC as it has designs
on parts of France, amongst others.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject: none
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:33:55 GMT

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From stairway@wam.umd.edu  Sat Nov 14 22:39:31 1992
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 23:39:25 -0500
From: Mark Louis Mathew <stairway@wam.umd.edu>
Message-Id: <199211150439.AA24907@rac1.wam.umd.edu>
To: soc-culture-greek-post
Subject: Testarw kai goustarw


Nai egw eimai, kala to katalabes...


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis)
Subject: An excerpt from Plato on "erotic agony" (in modern Greek & English)
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:24:32 GMT

Modern Greek (alphabet symbols: abgdeznqiklmvjoprc/stufxyw):
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eva apocpacma apo to "Sumpocio" (189c k.e.):

"... Allwte oi avqrwpoi dev eixav tn cnmerivn tous morfn, para ncav
oloctrogguloi, cav duo cwmata kollnmeva procwpo me procwpo, to kefali
cfairiko, teccera ta xeria kai ta podia teccera. Hcav ovta fobera ` ekavav
epidromes ctov Olumpo kai apeiloucav tous qeous. K' ekeivoi tote arxicav
va ckeftovtai pws va apallagouv ap' auta ta epikuvduva placmata. Epitelous
brnkav tn lucn: ekoyav to cwma tous cta duo, katakorufa, kai to kaqe
kommati egive avejartnto. Apo tnv wra ekeivn xrovologeitai n erwtikn agwvia.
Dev mporouv pia oi avqrwpoi va ckalfalwcouv ctov ouravo, alla dev mporouv kai
zncouv etci avapnroi ctn gn. Movn cwtnria eivai va brei o kaqevas to allo
tou mico kommati kai va evwqei mazi tou. Yaxvei loipov va to cuvavtncei kai
otav ajiwqei va to avakaluyei, cmigei mazi tou, javagivetai oloklnros kai
eivai eutuxns. Oco dev to brickei, upoferei - giati eivai kommatiacmevos,
leiyos. ..."
						- Platwv

English
~~~~~~~
An excerpt from "Symposium" (189c k.e.):

"... Once men did not have the current form, but they were round, like two
bodies glued face to face, a spherical head, four arms and four legs.
They used to be terrible creatures; they would make raids up to Olympus and
would challenge the Gods. And they, then, started to think a way to get ride
of these dangerous creatures. Finally, they found the solution: they cut their
bodies into two parts, perpendicularly, and each part became independent.
Since that moment the erotic agony is timed. Men can not climb up to the sky
anymore, nor can they live like this, invalid on earth. The only salvation
is to find each one the other half part and unite with it. Thus, one is
looking to meet that part and when one is worthy of finding it, one joins it,
becomes whole again and one is happy. While one can not find it, one suffers -
for one is broken up, incomplete. ..."

						- Plato


Translation (ancient Greek to modern Greek): Alejia Efstratiadou
Translation (modern Greek to English)      : Serafim Efstratiadis

----

Regards

Serafim..................................................a Macedon Greek
========================================================================
 ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   _____
|  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  |
| | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| |
| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____|
========================================================================
From: gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros Gavrilakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The small print
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:54:38 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

In article <102722@bu.edu>, gavras@acs.bu.edu (alexis gavras) writes:

|> It's fitting that this item was posted in soc.culture.greek, although I'm 
|> amazed Greece isn't mentioned. If a study were conducted to measure the
|> density of the drivers themselves, of course that would change. Anyone who's
|> been there knows what I mean. It would seem that a large segment of the Greek 
|> population either believe themselves to be immortal as long as they've crossed 
|> themselves before they start driving, or through a genetic defects, consumption
|> of certain foods, water impurities, or perhaps a fondness of uzo, have somehow
|> been desensitized to their own survival instincts. By the way, I don't know 
|> how it is in Switzerland, but around here I don't expect much of anything to do
|> with Greece to make headlines.
|> 
|>                                      -Alexis
|> 

If I remember well, within the EC the Dutch or the Danes have the
lowest rate of deaths due to traffic accidents. The Dutch are the most
polite road users I have come across. The worst death rate within the
EC is found, I believe, in Spain. Greece has either the second or third
worse accident-death rate in the EC.

sg
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:36:37 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <92Nov19.171458est.41965@ois.db.toronto.edu>, vassos@db.toronto.edu (
Vassos Hadzilacos) writes:

>"Us Greeks" includes at least this one Greek who hopes that Ms. Gazis-Sax
>will continue to feel proud of her ancestry, who does not find that the
>publication of her impressions constitutes betrayal of Greece, who finds
>ludicrous the notion that she has the aim of harming Greek interests, and
>who resents it when others try to appropriate patriotism in his name.

I would suggest that whoever presents the Vardaris in such a "noble" and
righteous light, only interested to tell her the "truth", while so unjustly
damning the Greek defense of the country's heritage and land, has an absolute
right to his/her opinion, but cannot just casually avoid admitting the essense
of his/her judgment against Greece by stating that "judging who is right is
far beyond her competence". That whoever propagates so blatant historical
revisionism like that the Bulgarian king Samuil was a "Macedonian" is either
totally devoid of historical knowledge or conscientiously trying to create
false impressions. And that if you, sir, have an adequate knowledge to discuss
(let alone try to refute) my statements, you can try to do so; if you don't,
then accusing me of "appropriating" patriotism in your... glorious name is not
something to pass for an argument. In that case, I'd just let you stew in your
own juice.

>
>--Vassos Hadzilacos
>

Dimitris Kouvatsos
-- 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10693 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9577 soc.culture.europe:9643