HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rray@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Randy J. Ray)
Subject: HUMVEEs in Grenada
Organization: US WEST Communications, Inc. -- Denver, CO
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:59:52 GMT


From rray@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Randy J. Ray)

I am preparing to start work on a 1/35 scale HUMVEE, the weapons-carrier
variant. I would like to do one that was in Grenada, since I am trying not
to get caught up in Desert Storm hysteria (but still want to do one that
was in a combat environment). I have some questions:

1) Con someone name some good general references? Photos, etc.

2) Did the HUMVEEs have the general 4-color scheme that European-based HUMVEEs
have (two greens, brown, and black, I think are the 4 colors).

3) What armaments were carried? I would like to put a Mk19 40mm automatic
grenade launcher on mine, but were they used there? Other choices are an M2
caliber .50 or an M60 7.62mm. I would rather not get wrapped up in trying to
accurize the TOW launchers on the kit market, as most are greatly lacking
in detail.

4) What unit markings can I use? Preferable to see a photo or two of a vehicle
that qualifies, with the armament I want. But absolutely a MUST that I get the
correct unit markings on it.

Us modelers are know to be retentive about these fine details. I will be
sinking a bit if extra money on this project. I could just get the kit and 
build it as-is, but I am willing to get the Mk 19, dry transfers for any
markings I need, and any references I need. The only references I have are
geared more towards modeling than what specific vehicles were in Grenada:

On Target No. 13: M998 HUMVEE (Verlinden Publications)
Various articles in modeling magazines (6 in all, ask me for a list)

I do not know of a modeling-oriented publication available for the Grenada
action.

Randy
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST IT/CSD         rray@{lookout,uswat}.it.uswc.uswest.com
I'd rather talk religion with Charles Manson than discuss ethics with Congress.
     -me                                                   Phone: (303)595-2852
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Tracers
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:46:14 GMT


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
>>	The material is depleted uranium, one of the densent metals known.
>>It is _not_ radioactive to any extent...
>
>I'd be surprised indeed if DU wasn't radioactive, but my guess is
>that the DU forms a core within a lead projectile... The lead would form a 
>radiation shield. 

It's not necessary.  All uranium is radioactive to some degree.  However,
note that Dan didn't say DU wasn't radioactive, he said it wasn't radioactive
enough to worry about for most purposes.  Which is true.  You might not want
to build a house out of the stuff, but there is no significant radiation
hazard in handling it occasionally.  The half-life is billions of years;
the radiation is extremely feeble.
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: wdr@world.std.com (William D Ricker)
Subject: Weird Revolvers (was Re: some civil war firsts.)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:19:35 GMT


From wdr@world.std.com (William D Ricker)

Iskandar Taib (ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) writes:
>>The Le Mat was invented by ...

>Did some of these have up to ten rounds? I also recall some
>Confederate revolvers having two barrels: ...
>from the rotating cylinder, and another one for a lone central 
>chamber. Weird looking guns.. I recall seeing these in some gun
>magazine years ago on a grocer's shelf...

During the range wars of the old american west after the "civil" war,
there were many oddities for squad-level fire-power superiority.  Many
different numbers of chambers were tried in revolvers.  My favorite,
and possibly the largest such that could still be argueably a sidearm,
was the two-barrel, 27-chamber revolver carbine.  The chambers were in
two concentric circles, and would alternate between top and bottom
barrel so each could cool during rapid fire.  It had a (?removable?)
shoulderstock and a barrel which I thought was longer than the
extended luger, but I don't recall how long.
     I beleive there are pictures in some of the "Historical Weapons
Coffeetable BOoks" that you can buy from mail-order book liquidators,
but my source is the Texas State Museum, in the heart of the
University at Austin TX, a short walk from the capitol.  Some cattle
or oil magnate who liked strange guns bought Peter The Great of
Russia's collection -- who was *really* into *wierd* guns, like a
three-barrelled blunderbus, looks like a three-note horn for
Clarabelle the clown -- from Lenin or Stalin when the young USSR
needed money during/after WWI, and donated the entire collection
posthumously to the state museum.
   with a codicile: That the entire collection must be displayed or
returned to his heirs.  The curators have relegated the display to the
basement and posted an apology for the disorder, they hate having any
unlabelled artifacts on display, but to display the few they like and
label, they must leave the rest look like a yardsale-under-glass.
YES!!!!  I loved it.  It is worth a side trip if you're withing a
day-trip of Austin. 
  They have quite a few multi-barrel and multi-chamber weapons, 
including pepperbox derrigners and deringer-knuckle-daggers and
sundry walking-stick-pistols.  The sword-cane with a firable pistol grip
is quite dastardly.  The duck-foot blunderbus, however, seems rather
desparate, but I suppose if the highway men started ranging in large
groups it would be worthwhile?

-- bill


-- 
Bill Ricker wdr@world.std.com      "The freedom of the press belongs 
(formerly wdr@wang.com)             to those who own one."

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)
Subject: Re: some civil war firsts.
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:04:48 GMT


From silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)

ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:

>|During the American revolution, the British assault on Breed's Hill (e.g.
>|the battle of Bunker Hill) took 1064 casualties out of a force of about 
>|2000. I think this was fairly typical for the period, since the big 
>|supprise to the British wasn't the high causualties, so much as the fact that
>|colonial militias had held up and fought well against a professional army.
>This is interesting because back in my Napoleonic Wargaming days it was
>made abundantly clear that at the time of Napoleon most units would be-
>come disordered, break and run way before casualties became significant. 

The British army during the American revolution was still pretty much the
same as during the seven years war. Its a big mistake to confuse Napoleonic
tactics and battles with those of the middle part of the century. Unfortunately,
most miniatures games for the seven years war are essentially Napoleonics
games. Differences between the two periods were:
a) No squares
b) Infantry deployed into line, often by deploying and countermarching to
place the #1 company on the right.
c) Attack column for infantry, only used to assault fixed positions, consisted
of pairs of companies in line like 
					XXXX    XXXX


					XXXX	XXXX


					XXXX	XXXX
	

					XXXX	XXXX

March column was similar, but with the companies themselves in column.
d) Cavalry charges were almost always in line. (There were a few Prussian
units trained in column.
e) Artillery was not massed.
d) Units that actually routed tended not to come back for the rest of the
campaign. (Allthough they were often reformed, and the soldiers often
rejoined, for another signing bonus.)
e) Casualties among the better units could be incredible. At Torgau one of
the Prussian regiments took 97% casualties.
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Lee Short <short@asf.com>
Subject: Re: Mac's return as Vicksburg.
Organization: ASF
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:07:21 GMT


From Lee Short <short@asf.com>


In article <1992Jul20.132317.24885@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> (Henry J.
Cobb) writes: >
>
>	MacArthur's reconquest of the Phillipines offered the same result as
>Grant's capture of Vicksburg.  The enemy was split into two weaker pieces that
>could not easily recombine.
>

This same result could have been achieved more easily by taking two
other objectives:  Iwo Jima and Okinawa.  These two objectives had the
decided advantage of representing a much more direct road to Tokyo.  

>	The reestablishment of the oil embargo upon the Japanese doomed their
>fleet to immobility, and so the heavy assets that had been carefully horded
>since Midway were exposed at last to the iron rain of American air power.

The "reestablishment of the oil embargo" upon Japan was primarily
achieved by American submarine warfare.  *Prior* to the battle of
Leyte Gulf, the Japanese fleet was kept at Lingga Roads (near
Singapore) so as to have a sufficient supply of fuel.  

>
>	At last the US Navy would have a free hand (in the Pacific as on the
>Mississippi) and the US armed forces could move forwards to a tight seige of
>the enemy capitol, which (with heavy bombardment) would prove decisive.

As of October 1944 (the time of the Leyte landings), the US Navy *did*
have a free hand in the Pacific.  "Moving forward to a tight seige of
the enemy capitol" meant taking Iwo Jima and Okinawa, as I point out
above.  

Lee

>	Henry J. Cobb	hcobb@fly2.berkeley.edu	SFB Tyrant

short@asf.com        I'll believe in Virtual Reality when they create 
Lee Short            the first virtual beer.  
Hughes Training, Inc.  |  I speak for none of the many steps in the food 
                      chain between myself and General Motors corporation.  

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: M16A1 ammunition vs M16A2 ammunition
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:10:25 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul22.170715.20852@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Eugene Heiss (GWD) <heiss@brl.mil> writes:

|This is not true.  The M855 Ball cartridge was designed to be compatible
|with the M16A1 Rifle.  The pressure vs time curves are the same for the
|M855 SAW cartridge and the M193 M16A1 cartridge.  The internal components
|of the M16A1 were not changed in the conversion to the M16A2.  The gas system
|of the M16A1 is the same as the M16A2.  In the Sierra Bullets Reloading
|Manual, the maximum advisable loading for their 55 grain bullets (same
|weight as the M193 projectile) would give a velocity of 3200 fps while 
|that for a 63 grain bullet (the M855 bullet weighs 62 grains) is 3100 fps.

Hmmmm.... 

I'd think that to launch a heavier bullet at almost the same velocity
one would need more area under that time-pressure curve. If this is
the case then it would stand to reason that the pressure would be 
higher when the bullet passes the gas port. What powders were used 
in these loads? Is the 63 grain bullet load using a slower powder?
The slower twist of the A1 will not stabilize the heavier bullet.

Then again you're probably right  9-)




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Re:  (Pre-)WW2 unit insignia id
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:52:10 GMT


From ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

In article <1992Jul28.130839.25773@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
> 
> From     Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL>
> 
> Hi!
> I have a little book from 1942 that illustrates US military insignia
> and it lists a "36th Infantry Division", both in WWI and the
> then-current WWII. However, the insignia it depicts for that unit, in
> both wars, is a down-pointing arrowhead (with an irregular outline,
> indicating a chipped-flint arrowhead), colored bright blue, with a
> yellow "T" in the middle of it. [I have no idea what the "T" means;
> the book gives no explanations, just pictures with unit designtions.]
> 

The 'T' stood for Texas since the 36th Div. was allocated to the Texas
NG when the US entered WWII. According to the book I have; "The design
of the shoulder patch worn by the 36th Division was approved by the AEF
on Nov. 12, 1918. The letter 'T' for 'Texas' appears on a flint arrow-
head which suggests the Indian Territory as the former name for Oklahoma
(WWI elements of the Division were from both Texas & Oklahoma)."

PHIL


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: pshyvers@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Peter Shyvers)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Keywords: bizarreness
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:16:25 GMT


From pshyvers@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Peter Shyvers)


In article <1992Jul22.171941.22578@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates) writes:
>
>From th2_oate@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
>
>In article <1992Jul16.201006.2463@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> sun330!ur-guh.com!smith@uunet.UU.NET (Russ Smith) writes:
>>
>>From sun330!ur-guh.com!smith@uunet.UU.NET(Russ Smith)
>>
>>Why is there a "tradition" of executing spies caught during
>>wartime? What makes a spy sufficiently different from any other
>>soldier that the spy should be killed?
>
>I think that the incident you're referring to took place during the
>Battle of the Bulge in 1944. At the court martial, defence lawyers

>From Otto Skorzeny's 150th PzBrigade. Several companies of troops were equipped
with US uniforms and soft-skinned vehicles; Panther (I believe) tanks were
disguised as (I believe) M18 Hellcats.  The idea, of course, was rapid
penetration of the US lines and seizure of key points in the road net.

In addition there were small groups of US-uniformed men (ES, or Einheit Steilau,
if I remember correctly) in Jeeps who were to (a) penetrate the lines, and
(b) cause confusion - by cutting telephone wires, changing road signs,
ambushing small units, etc.  I think the aforementioned soldiers were from
one of these units. Or at least purported to be.



Newsgroups: sci.military
From: wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)
Subject: Phalanx ammo (was Re:Tracers)
Organization: Cornell University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:04:04 GMT


From wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)

In article <1992Jul23.183516.19133@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>,
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes: 
> Yes true but the concept is the same, except that there 
> isn't a human being in the loop and the radar that does 
> the aiming doesn't need anything other than the metal in
> the projectile. Do they use lead or is it some exotic 
> metal in the Phalanx projectiles? 
For US ships the standard round is a depleted uranium round for the maximum
possible cross-sectional density and thus energy retention.  The idea is to
either wreck the guidance package or detonate the incoming warhead.  I don't
imagine that we export the DU round to all of the countries which have bought
Phalanx.  These users probably fire tungsten rounds as the best alternative.

-- 
Tom Schoene
wwo@cornella.cit.cornell.edu  -or- wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever you're holding all the cards why does everyone else turn
out to be playing chess?"
From: mchinni@PICA.ARMY.MIL (Michael J. Chinni, (SMCAR-CCS-W)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: call for papers
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:55:47 GMT
Organization: CCAC W/A


From "Michael J. Chinni, (SMCAR-CCS-W" <mchinni@PICA.ARMY.MIL>

Abstract Due Date:			October 17, 1992
Notification Accepted/Rejected sent by:	October 24, 1992
Papers Due:				December 31, 1992

                       ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS

           2ND ANNUAL CONFERENCE ON MILITARY & GOVERNMENT SIMULATION
          Supported by Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division

                        1993 Simulation Multiconference
                            March 29 - April 1, 1993
                               Arlington, Virginia

            Sponsored by The Society for Computer Simulation [SCS]

	Military & Government Simulation will feature technical sessions
dedicated to to applications from a wide array of technical disciplines within
the arena of military & government simulation. Technical papers, presentations
and proposals for tutorials, panels, workshop and other special formats are
solicited in (but not limited to) the following areas:

 - Ballistics and Propellant Simulation      - Credibility Assessment
 - C3I Simulation                            - Visualization & Virtual Reality
 - Lethality, Vulnerability & Survivability  - Decision Support Systems
 - Weapons Systems Simulation for Design     - Battlefield Communications
 - Non Real-Time Flight Dynamics Simulation  - Applications of Optimization and
 - Directed-Energy Weapons Simulation          Multi-Body Dynamics (MBD)

	Engineering personnel, Modelers, researchers, developers, and
experimentalists from industry, academia, DOD, DOE, and other government
installations are invited to contribute and participate in this conference.
Send three copies of original previously unpublished papers or abstracts to the
address below by October 17, 1992. Notification of acceptance or rejection will
be made by October 24, 1991.  Author kits should be received by accepted
authors by November 1, 1991.  Responsibility for all clearances associated with
full papers - which will be published in the conference proceedings - rests
with the author. The due date for camera-ready copy is December 31, 1992.

	Submit papers, abstracts, presentations and proposals for tutorials,
panels, workshops and other special formats to:
                               Michael J. Chinni
                                12 Windbeam Rd.
                              Riverdale, NJ 07457

	Include full names, affiliations, addresses and phone numbers (office
and home) for each participant. Attach, or copy business cards if available.
Indicate on the page that this is for the 1993 Simulation Multiconference -
Military & Government Simulation.  Participants are expected to register early,
at a reduced rate and to attend the conference at their own expense.

Anyone wishing further information can contact Mr. Chinni at the above address
or at: (201)724-4140/(DSN)880-4140     <mchinni@pica.army.mil>
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Altered history of warfare
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:41:19 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul22.170140.20249@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Mike.Hoffmann@sniap.mchp.sni.de (Mike Hoffmann) writes:

>This is tough. Agincourt might have been the same, even if the French had been
>unmounted - the British long-bow men would still have made mincemeat of them.
>Waterloo, on the other hand might have gone differently had the Scots Greys
>not attacked again and again until the Prussians arrived. (hmmm, yes, I have
>to look up the battle again - pretty dim there)

Someone else posted that at Agincourt the French knights attacked on 
foot anyhow to spare the horses. 

Can someone post what the Scots Greys actually did at Waterloo? Some
wargaming friend told me that what actually happened was they charged
the French, then lost control and kept going. When this happens you 
have effectively lost the unit until they can rally and reorganize. 
The Scots Greys were supposedly a Dragoons regiment that wore strange 
uniforms. In the movie "Waterloo" they were slaughtered by Napoleon's 
lancers. 





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: kmwheeler@ualr.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Rocket Propelled Grenades
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:02:36 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock


From kmwheeler@ualr.edu

Does anyone know of an informative book on the Soviet RPG?
I am looking for something that gives history, dimensions, charge,
type of propellant, etc... Also interested in sources of information
on similar types of weapons (Panzerfaust, M72A2...)

Thank you,

Keith Wheeler

kmwheeler@ualr.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu
Subject: Re: depleted uranium
Organization: CSU, DOMINGUEZ HILLS
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:39:36 GMT


From rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu

In article <1992Jul28.130025.24034@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, arw4@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Aaron R Wininger) writes:
> 
> From arw4@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Aaron R Wininger)
> 
> Question:what are the advantages to using depleted uranium in ammunition?

Militaries make sabots out of depleted Uranium because it is a very dense 
substance i.e. it weighs a lot for a given volume. A sabot is the part
of a tank round that accutually penetrates the enemy tank. Most tank rounds
are composed of a shell and the sabot. The two seperate after firing 
thereby giving the sabot a higher velocity.
 
> How long until succesfully destroyed targets can be scrapped or cannalbalized?
There is little radiation left in depleted uranium rounds and targets can
be scrapped as soon as is handy.

Rod Holmes
rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu

Newsgroups: sci.military