HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c85perwe@IDA.LiU.SE (Per Westling)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:44:28 GMT
	<Jan21.031443.34972@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Reply-To: c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se
Organization: CIS Dept, University of Linkoping, Sweden

In article <Jan21.031443.34972@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:

> Well, FYRM's creation was conceived by Stalin, in order to present
> territorial claims over northern Greece, the only western ally in the
> region, with final goal to gain access and exit to the Aegean Sea.
> Should you have an even superficial knowledge of the post WWII era
> you must understand the strategic importance of the archipelago.

Stalin has been dead for many years.  The inhabitans of that part of
the world that call themselves "Republic of Macedonia" call themselves
Macedonians.  I believe people could call themselves whatever they
like.  Would the probelm be the same if they called themselves
Ottomans?

> Today, the new consitution of the FYRM still supporting territorial
> claims over northern Greece. You understand thus, that the debate is
> not just over a name. It is much more than that.

> Greece doesn't object to the recognition of that state. Should the
> Skopje government changes the name, the state will be granded recognition
> and will be supported financially from Greece. Their (FYRM)
> persistence to the particular name should raise a few questions
> around.

By your argument I understand that it's really the constitution that
is the problem, not the name.  So make the people of the "Republic of
Macedonia" change their constitution then!  Or would you be satisfied
if they called themselves "New Macedonia", "Ottman Empire", "Zxyz", or
whatever, and still had the same constitution?

--
Per Westling              |
Mardtoprsgatan 15         |  c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se
S-582 48 LINKOPING        |  In praise of Idleness -- Bertrand Russel
SWEDEN                    |
Stuff regarding DPP may be sent to x90perwe@ida.liu.se instead.
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: Turkey vs Greece
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:33:10 GMT

Irakliotis,
the quotations (well prolonged by conspicuous repetitions) that you listed
are mostly of defensive nature. Most of them state that if disturbance
continues, confrontation will occur. In the case of Greece and Turkiye, the
expression of a possibility of confrontation may be well interpreted as
threat, too, if you want to. But the message is clear. I will try to put it
in a more digestable and easy to remember format for you:

	We'll see the peace for which we crave,
	If you work hard, if you behave.


Don't have a cow,
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: USA Governemnt SPEAK OUT !
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:45:53 GMT

irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>                                   Circular Airgram
>                                 (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

Isn't it 1993 now?

Oops, forgot that Greece is a nation is living in the past.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: DANISH FOREIGN MINISTER
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 05:02:56 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1jklv5INNjce@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu (Robert D West) writes:
|> 
|> Danish foreign minister Uffe Elleman-Jenson called on the EC
|> to press Greece into allowing recognition of the Republic of Macedonia,
|> according to the RFE/RL report.

Well, Denmark should be more careful when dealing with EC issues. These people
are not sure it they stay or withdraw from the community. And the statement of
their foreign minister was far away from the EC's policy. EC's policy about the
FYRM is the first decission of the Community regarding foreign affairs, that was
accepted unanimously and reafirmed twice. 

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 12:59:58 GMT

In article <C19Gv7.8F4@ecf.toronto.edu>, androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca> viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca writes:
|> >You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece never
|> >conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we return
|> >the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks speak
|> >Macedonian.
|> 
|> 	I agree...let's return the borders to where they were, but let's 
|> continue speaking what Phillip spoke: Greek.
|> 
Actually, Phillip spoke Greek as a second language.
|> 	

--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin)
Subject: Re: New Nat'l Geographic Atlas
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:04:44 GMT

In article <JTSILLA.93Jan25175748@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu> jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.120756.19778@husc3.harvard.edu> lublin@husc8.harvard.edu (David Lublin) writes:
>
   
>.... deleted
>
>Greece has no concern over the nationalists in Macedonia. What we are
>deeply concerned about is that Macedonia will seek to recruit the help
>of Turkey in "liberating" the rest of their "homeland". Greece has alot
>to fear from Turkey with its million-man standing army. I don't agree
>that a country has the right to name itself anything it wants when
>nationalists intend to use that name as a weapon to compromise the
>security of another country. There's alot of evidence this is the case
>(several postings have shown this evidence).
>

What makes you think that Turkiye would want to spread Turkish blood for the
"liberation" of Macedonia? I believe as a country fulfilling every
legislative requisite, Macedonia has the right to her name and most of all,
to be recognized internationally. Be that as it may, there is no reason
Turkiye should cultivate interest in their conflict with Greece.

> ...
>
>regards,
>-Jim.
> 
>--
>	***  James Tsillas  jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu   ***
>	***      Work: (508)898-2800, Home: (617)641-0513        ***
>	***        "He is after me. Jim is after him."           ***
>	***            - Hop on Pop, Dr. Seuss                   ***


--
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:14:26 EST
From: Eleftherios Hazapis <EH9174A@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: star of vergina

In a recent interview with an Athens newspaper, Mr. Grogorov, when asked about
the new flag of the "Macedonian Republic", did not give an explanation as to wh
y the symbol from the tombs of Phillip at Vergina is being used by his country
when its origins are clearly Greek.
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Historians Speak Out!
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:04:03 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C1FAo7.J0M@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
|>  Is this a correct reference? Herodotus never mentions Alexander the
|> Great in his histories.

Perhaps you should begin reading books instead of eating them.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: language questions
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:55:22 GMT

ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS (androut@ecf.toronto.edu) writes:
>>What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?
>
>	Slavic.

You need some education. "Slavic" is the name of a language group,
but not a name of a language itself.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Turkey vs Greece
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:10:44 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C1H4vC.48C@news.iastate.edu>, oyalcin@iastate.edu (Onur Yalcin) writes:
|> Irakliotis,
|> the quotations (well prolonged by conspicuous repetitions) that you listed
|> are mostly of defensive nature. Most of them state that if disturbance
|> continues, confrontation will occur.

Yalcin,
you have a strange eye for "defense". By any measurable sense Turkey
has a more powerful army that Greece. Greece has a population of 10M
Turkey is over 40M. Don't you think that Turkey should not use that
harsh language to define its commitment of defending itself from Greece?

I believe that Turkey has an eye on Western Thrace. It's hard for me
to put the following, in a "defensive" context. Would you care to explain
where is the defensive nature in the following quotes, exactly?

"The Aegean Sea belongs to us. This is something that must be understood        
by all. We do not intend to innovate in matters of foreign policy. If the       
honour and interests of the Turkish nation are threatened, we shall knock       
the enemy's block off!".                                                        
		(Premier Sadi Irmak, 18.1.75).   

Turgut Ozal, Prime Minister:
"The status that now exists between Greece and Turkey is
unsatisfactory.  Had the Turks known where the Lausanne Treaty
would lead to, they would never have signed it ...............
Journalists should use the term 'Aegean islands', not 'Greek
islands".
(Financial Times, December 6 1983).

"The group of islands situated near the Turkish coast, including the   
Dodecanese, must belong to Turkey. Among these we cite Samothrace,              
Lesbos, Chios, Samos, Kos, Rhodes and all others, small or large within a       
distance of 50 km". 
       (Vice-Premier Mr.Turkes, in "Devlet", 30 Mar 1976).

"Western Thrace is Turkish and will remain Turkish .... Western
Thrace should obtain its independence .... When the time comes
our Western Thracian compatriots will consider either autonomy
or independence"
          Diary published by the "European Association of
          Turks of Western Thrace", January 1981

"We intend to keep this district (W. Thrace) in Turkish hands
and to include her as a single territorial entity at an
appropriate time and opportinity within the borders of the mother
country."
          A pamphlet of 32 pages entitled "The Lausanne Treaty
          and the Question of Western Thrace." August 1981.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: jmg@bigbang.la.asu.edu (Jonathan Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: language questions
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:24:51 GMT
Reply-To: jmg@bigbang.la.asu.edu (Jonathan Gordon)
Organization: Arizona State University



|>
|>What language do the people of the Greek province of Macedonia speak?
|>
Greek in public, Macedonian at home.

|>What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?
Macdeonian and a few other numerous languages.
|>
|>What language do the people of western Bulgaria speak?
|>
Macedonian at home, in private.  Bulgarian mostly in public.
Apoligees if I am being too general and those who speak Macedonian are the ones
who still claim to be apart of Macedonia.
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 06:16:29 GMT



;>Alan Carter (agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca) writes:
;>|> Which raises the question... *which* Macedonia?
;>
;>Well, there aren't many choices. Macedonia is the name of the northern Greek
;>province.
;
;And the name of an ancient kingdom.
;
;And the name of the south-westernmost region of Bulgaria.
;
;And the name of an geographical area.
;
;And, if memory serves, a place somewhere in the US.

There are many "Anthens" in the world (ancient state, capital of Greece, one in 
U.S.A., etc) but when someone mentions Athens (with no other specification) he
means the capital of Greece. Make you own deductions.


;And the name of an independent state.

No, it is not.



                                                      ---  Xapa



Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: androut@ecf.toronto.edu (ANDROUTSOS DIMITRIOS)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:58:02 GMT

>
>You're WAY off. Ill give you a much better example. Its like Mexico gets 
>partitioned and the northern section of it decides to call itself Texas. 
>They call themselves Texans and they start talking of an oppressed 
>minority of Texans in the United States who are not allowed to 
>speak their native language. They issue money with pictures 
>from Dallas and Houston and they talk about one day uniting all of Texas.
>Get the picture?  

	Beautiful. Just Beautiful! Now maybe some of these uneducated
peasants can relate to a scenario which they understand instead of being
brainwashed by their power-hungry leaders.
>
>Aleck

Dimitri
 


Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: yiannis@wam.umd.edu (IOANNIS VELISSARAKOS  ATHINA-HELLAS)
Subject: Re: Ancient Macedonian Cities (was Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 04:03:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.203842.6931@cs.wisc.edu> rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer) writes:
>Maybe the new country of Macedonia could use another name, after all the name
>Byzantine Empire seems available.
>
>I refuse to recognize Greece until it changes it's name to "Snuggles".
>
	Was that funny??? Keep your humor for you         
	eXOUN BGEI OLA TA KWLOPAIDA KAI KANOUN KAI PLAKA APANW.....
	ALLA DEN FTAINE AYTOI ....DEN FTAINE.....

Apogohteymenos me thn olh katastash,
yiannis
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Macedonia should not be recognized (Re: Macedonia should be recognized)
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:23:09 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <JTSILLA.93Jan21103509@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu>, by jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas):
> 
> I think Skopje should not be recognized because there is still a
> question of it's treatment of the Serbian minority and the other
> minority groups living in the region. This is precisely the reason there
> is war in Bosnia today.


Let's not forget that the main Albanian party in Macedonia forms part of
the government there. Nor that the Badinter Commission looked at
precisely this question and recommended recognition (it suggested
Croatia shouldn't be recognised as I recall) and that the UN's special
rapporteur on human rights in ex-Yugo has also called for recognition.
That looks like a pretty good record.

> 
> My family lives very close to this region and I don't want to see war
> there.
> 
> Skopje should make every effort to first resolve all issues of minority
> rights and territorial claims as well as concerns of its neighbors of
> the country's name.

I hope we can all agree that we don't want to see war. But shouldn't the
above read 'neighbour' singular?


Andy
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: cla04@keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Organization: Keele University, England
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:09:10 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Distribution: alt
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:22:18 GMT




> You say you are talking about a name. Suppose the Republic of Macedonia
> is recognized? What policy should Greece take then?

Greeks have no objections of this country to be recognized as long as they
they don't include the term "Makedonia" in their name. 


> Where do you think the borders of Greece should lie? As under Alexis II?
> As under Basil II? Or Heraclius or Alexander?

What about where they are now?


> The answer is that I think the stand taken by Greece is absurd.
> It is equivalent to the United States of America not recognizing
> the United States of Mexico.
      ^^^^^  ^^^^^  ^^ ^^^^^^

No it is not. The term "United States" denotes the way the country is organized
i.e in states and it has nothing to do with history or geographic location. Your
example would have been correct *only* in the case that Greece didn't want this
no-name-country to include the term "Democracy" in its title (after all Democracy
was a Greek "invention" as well) but this is not the case. They are more than
welcome to be called a "Democracy" or a "Republic" (if they wish to be a 
Democracy of course :)  ). The way they want to rule their state is there 
business but our history is ours. 
Of course I assume that in your example the hypothetical objection of U.S.A is
on the "United States" part of the name since I find it unlikely that they would
(hypothetically of course) object on "United States of Mexico" but agree on
"United States of Tanzanika" :)



                                                       Enjoy,
                                                        Xapa.

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.europe,misc.headlines
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Victim of Cynical Balkan Power Play (Macedonia)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:39:20 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan25.034129.29841@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, mworden@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Mike Worden) writes:
|>  
|>                 Victim of cynical Balkan power play
|> 		by Chris Popov [...]

Thank you for posting this here. Excellent sample of the still ongoing
communistic propaganda. Similar texts were published in pro-comm papers
in the Glory days of Tito. 

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas)
Subject: Re: New Nat'l Geographic Atlas
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:57:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.120756.19778@husc3.harvard.edu> lublin@husc8.harvard.edu (David Lublin) writes:
Path: random.ccs.northeastern.edu!lynx!noc.near.net!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!biosci!agate!stanford.edu!hsdndev!burrhus!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc8.harvard.edu!lublin
   From: lublin@husc8.harvard.edu (David Lublin)
   Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
   Date: 25 Jan 93 17:07:54 GMT
   Organization: Harvard University Science Center
   Lines: 17
   Nntp-Posting-Host: husc8.harvard.edu

   National Geographic came out recently with a revised version of its
   6th Edition Atlas which shows Macedonia as well as the rest of 
   ex-Yugoslavia.  The Greeks have lost out on the map as NG has labelled
   the country "Macedonia."  BTW, you can also find the flag in the atlas.

Even though I enjoy reading NG, I am glad it is not the final authority
on delineating national boundaries. Still I think I'll give them a call
asking if they are aware of the situation. (More to follow on this).

   I'm amazed that in the process of claiming Macedonia is ethnically this
   or that, that few people have acknowledged that Macedonia has historically
   been and continues to be an ethnic polyglot.  Besides Macedonians, Bulgarians,
   Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs have all lived in Macedonia.  The ethnic lines
   between these groups haven't always been ultra-clear either.

Macedonia is a geographic region not an ethnic group. There are several
ethnic groups living in Macedonia and Macedonia is shared between the
borders of several countries. Unlike Kurdistan, where there is a an
ethnic group split among several countries, Macedonia has no such ethnic
group. 

   I might as well add my two cents on the naming controversy as well.  It
   seems to me that any country has the right to name itself anything it wants.
   Macedonia doesn't claim the Greek province by the same name so what's the 
   beef?  And the idea that Macedonia itself poses any threat to Greece is absurd.

Greece has no concern over the nationalists in Macedonia. What we are
deeply concerned about is that Macedonia will seek to recruit the help
of Turkey in "liberating" the rest of their "homeland". Greece has alot
to fear from Turkey with its million-man standing army. I don't agree
that a country has the right to name itself anything it wants when
nationalists intend to use that name as a weapon to compromise the
security of another country. There's alot of evidence this is the case
(several postings have shown this evidence).

David, I think you express the views of many people who don't know the
full story. The Balkans are an intricate web of alliances and old
grudges. The issue with the FYRM dates back quite some time and has
never been resolved. I think it is Greece's right to have a settlement
of this issue once and for all in some peaceful and justifiable way.

regards,
-Jim.
 
--
	***  James Tsillas  jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu   ***
	***      Work: (508)898-2800, Home: (617)641-0513        ***
	***        "He is after me. Jim is after him."           ***
	***            - Hop on Pop, Dr. Seuss                   ***
Xref: sparky alt.news.macedonia:45 misc.test:15582
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Date: 21 Jan 93 07:43:27 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Leo J Irakliotis (irakliot@lance.colostate.edu) writes:
>Alan Carter (agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca) writes:
>|> Which raises the question... *which* Macedonia?
>
>Well, there aren't many choices. Macedonia is the name of the northern Greek
>province.

And the name of an ancient kingdom.

And the name of the south-westernmost region of Bulgaria.

And the name of an geographical area.

And, if memory serves, a place somewhere in the US.

And the name of an independent state.


-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Historians Speak Out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:25:09 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University


o    "So, Macedonia is Greece".  [Strabo, VII Frg 39]

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia