HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna)
Subject: Re: Books review- "Free the Animals" By Ingrid Newkirk
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:11:40 GMT

itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken) writes:

>In article Alka Chandna  writes:

>>	To keep readers from dismissing Valerie's efforts as being "irrelevant",Newkirk has weaved a crash course in the philosophy of animal rights into the
>>storyline.  In an incredibly believable manner, Newkirk slips in quotations 
>>by everyone from Mahatma Gandhi ("The greatness of a nation and its moral 
>>progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals") to Jeremy Bentham
>>("The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they speak? But, can they
>>suffer?") to Leonardo daVinci ("The day will come when we will look upon the
>>murder of beasts as we now look upon the murder of men") to Martin Luther 
>>King ("An unjust law is no law at all").  Peter Singer's utilitarian argument
>>finds its way into the pages of the novel, as does Tom Regan's rights and
>>responsibilities spiel.

>Did she mention Hitler?  The Nazis introduced some sweeping
>antivivisection laws in the 30's.

Let's try to remember some basic principles of logic.  If the Nazis introduced
some "sweeping antivivisections laws", does it follow that antivivisectionists
in general are Nazis?  In fact, Nobel laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer, himself
a survivor of a Polish concentration camp, noted in one of his books that to
the animals of the world, "all humans were Nazis".  The link between the 
manner in which animal experimenters have chosen to carve up the habitants of 
this planet is much closer to what the Nazis stood for than *anything* that
Gandhi, Bentham, daVinci, Schweitzer, Singer or Regan proclaimed/proclaim
to be saying about our relationship with animals.

The sort of thinking that allows for the existence of exploiters and 
populations to be exploited is exactly what Nazism is all about, exactly 
what the notion of a Master Race is all about, exactly what the notion of
a Master Species (or "crown of creation") is all about. 

alka
From: jjohnson@convex.com (Jennifer L. Johnson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Feedback to ARFs
Date: 28 Jan 93 00:03:40 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Originator: jjohnson@muse.convex.com
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Mary Rita Otto writes:

>I would like to relate the following story, which was told to me by
>someone who has no knowledge of my involvement in any debates surrounding
>the animal "rights" issues.
>
>Last November, on the day after Thanksgiving, a family vacationing in
>the SF area traveled in the city to do some site seeing.  In the center
>of a shopping area, in a public square, they encountered an Anti-Fur
>protest.  They saw a group of people dressed up as different animals
>and with fake blood dripping at various points.  They blocked movement
>and were laying down over the cable car tracks.
>
>The woman's son, 4 years old, asked what was going on.  Her mother
>told her, "It's kind of like Halloween.  Aren't they funny looking?"
>They laughed at the "ridiculous" costumes.  When they and other tourists
>boarded the cable car to resume their sight seeing, many exchanged jokes
>about the "protest".
>
>Another man I know, who, again, does not know of my opinions on the
>subject, showed me a picture in a newspaper of protesters with an
>oversized plush rabbit with red paint splashed on it by protesters
>against animal testing.  He said that the animal rights people were
>"really funny. ... good for a laugh ... what a bunch of loonies".
>
>All this was before the expose' on 60 minutes.
>
>So, just a sampling of what middle America thinks of the ARFs.

And a very small sampling, too.

People often laugh at what they don't understand.  "Hey, this guy
says the world is round!  What a moron!  Ha Ha Ha!"

I've been participating in anti-fur protests for 8 or so years.  At one
time, it was common for the public to laugh, shout obscenities, etc.,
but things have changed.  We get many more shows of support than of
derision. 

If middle American thinks we're so ridiculous, how do you explain our
increasing numbers?



-- 
Jennifer L. Johnson | "The animals of this world exist for their own reasons.
jjohnson@convex.com |  They were not made for humans, just as women were not
		    |  made for men and blacks were not made for whites." 
						--Alice Walker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Combine'd' laziness
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:41:39 GMT

In <C1DsLr.46q@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>Perhaps you weren't following the thread closely.  We were discussing
>the impact that livestock agriculture was having on California water
>supplies.

	And I've already mentioned that California is no place to
grow anything, much less cattle, especially in the southern end.

>How about methane emissions, nitrate pollution, acid rain, etc, 
>etc?  And, how about water shortages, desertification, use of 
>(non-renewable) petrochemicals in livestock agriculture, etc, 
>etc?  If you don't wish to discuss these issues, why don't you simply 
>bow-out of the conversation instead of preaching to us about what 
>we need to discuss or don't need to discuss at the present time.  

	For the same reason I don't use a killfile, Russ -- it is
much more fun and enlightening to read what others post and make
corrections when my experience has shown the facts cited to be in
error.  I've backed up my assertations with years in the field.

	In addition, the problems you mention with regards to
cattle are hardly worth bothering with compared to the other
methods presently being used to exaberate these problems.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<     USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines.  Meet exciting,      >
<                 unusual people.  And flame them.                   >
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.activism,rec.food.veg
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Book Review - "Free the Animals!" by Ingrid Newkirk
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:58:21 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

`The pheasants were run over or sucked into
`the guts of the combine, the deer were killed by the sickle blades of the
`bean head as it rolled over the field while they lay, motionless, hoping
`to escape predation by hiding.

How is about the animals that thrive during the months the crops are planted
and suddenly are faced with a lack of food when the crops are harvested
for vegan consumption?



-- 
 All Month  Rabbit and Crow are legal to hunt all month in Michigan
  Current   Michigan Canada Goose special late season still open
      (Southern Michigan Game Management unit only w/stamp)
         <<<<<<  Only nine months until bow season!!! >>>>>>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Martin Hulsey)
Subject: Re: Speechless Ingrid
Followup-To: talk.politics.animals
Organization: Dept. Foods & Nutrition, Univ. of GA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:53:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.205954.1831@cs.mun.ca>, ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka
Chandna) wrote:
> 
>[...]
> Yeah, well maybe she was trying to supress a yawn.

Or maybe she was truly speechless.  You must admit that this happens
infrequently.  Have you seen her speak?

>[...]
>Surely, if he'd taken the time to read
> one of the Putting People First propaganda items, he'd have come across enough
> of Ingrid's supposedly shocking quotations to realize that her difficulty with
> animal experimentation has nothing, zero, nada to do with what may or may not
> result from said experimentation for human patients.

That's the problem with Ingrid's position Alka.  She equates animal
research with pain and suffering, but ignores the pain and suffering of
humans that can and do benefit from animal experimentation.  

>Her concern is the 
> tyranny which is exercised as a result against other forms of animal life.

For your information, all successful species exploit one another to enhance
their own survival.  Look around you.  Only by adopting the speciesist
behavor that is maligned by the animal "rights" movement may we ensure our
survival.  All successful species are speciesist.

The conservationist Richard Conniff suggested "... the animal rights
movement has elevated ignorance about the natural world almost to the level
of a philosophical principle" (Conniff, R.  1990.  Fuzzy-wuzzy thinking
about animal rights.  Audobon 92(6):120-133).

> BTW, I'm aware that you've posted some articles to which I am required to re-
> spond.

Your response is not required, but would be appreciated.  I am behind on my
responses as well, and am too busy to catch up.

> 
> alka
> 
> animal rights group do intend to do such must 

Huh?

--
mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Martin G. Hulsey)
Neuroscience, NRA-ILA, SSIB, NAASO, IASO
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Combine'd' laziness
Organization: WP Group
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:30:09 GMT

From article <lmc0pnINNq0p@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, by banta@abingdon.Eng.Sun.COM (242 lbs before cooking):
> In article <C19zGG.99u@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
> [ on soybeans being complete, amino acid-wise ]
> 
>>still, I think we can see that your claim is false.
>>                     mg/100 grams
>>                   Medium    Boiled
>>                  Hamburger Soybeans
>>Tryptophan          284        242
>>Threonine           965        723
>>Isoleucine          987        807
>>Leucine            1845       1355
>>Lysine              538       1108
>>Phenylalanine       873        869
>>Tyrosine            718        630
>>Valine             1116        831
>>Methionine          538        224
> 
> Taking your numbers as accurate (I had a Bio professor at Sierra
> College in Sacramento jokingly conjecture the soybeans were boiled
> in chicken broth),  ...

Yep, he was joking all right.

> you still need to put away 600 grams of boiled
> soybeans to get the 1500 mg of Methionine/day that's recommended for
> adults. (Ref. National Research Council, "Recommended daily
> allowances" 1986, page 44)

If this were true, you'd have to put away about 300 grams of cooked
hamburger each day, which would weigh roughly one pound before 
cooking.  And these 300 grams of meat would contain approximately 
63 grams of fat, about 200 mgs of cholesterol, and no fiber 
whatsoever.  Do you know a good cardiologist, Andy?  

> I'll gladly boil you up 17 oz. of soybeans if you'll eat them in one
> sitting.

Super.  If you add another pound of rice and some seasonings, it'll
be a great meal.   On the whole, however, I prefer to eat a half/dozen
small meals each day, rather than one big one.   

> Or, cutting to the chase: No.  It isn't the same 4 grams of protein
> from beef as it is from soy.  Although your miracle soy above is
> closer than I expected.

I agree with you that hamburger isn't the same as grains and beans.  
Would you like for me to post or email a copy of the American Dietetic
Association's paper on vegetarian diets?

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
From: romingk@alleg.edu (Karl Rominger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Book Review - "Free the Animals!" by Ingrid Newkirk
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:38:34 GMT
Reply-To: romingk@alleg.edu
Organization: Allegheny College

In article <swood.727927101@vela> swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood -  
EVENSONG) writes:
> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
> 
> `The pheasants were run over or sucked into
> `the guts of the combine, the deer were killed by the sickle blades of  
the
> `bean head as it rolled over the field while they lay, motionless,  
hoping
> `to escape predation by hiding.
> 
> How is about the animals that thrive during the months the crops are  
planted
> and suddenly are faced with a lack of food when the crops are harvested
> for vegan consumption?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  All Month  Rabbit and Crow are legal to hunt all month in Michigan
>   Current   Michigan Canada Goose special late season still open
>       (Southern Michigan Game Management unit only w/stamp)
>          <<<<<<  Only nine months until bow season!!! >>>>>>

We might as well abandon this line of reasoning.  AR people don't follow  
linear logic well.  They seem to like circular logic, especially if it is  
based on fancy and emotion, rather than fact and reality.  We won't  
convince these people, unless we can teach them how to rationalize.  This  
String may have pricked a few AR minds, but I'm sure their emotional  
overdrive kicked in and unreasoned reason.  After all ever talk to one of  
these people.  They got more pseudo science than Carter's got liver pills.  
So while I enjoy this thread, I fear those among us who do not know or  
want to know the truth behind life (that's death.  Sorry someone had to  
say it out loud.)  never will understand our point of view.

Karl Rominger           I make Methane, and legumes are the problem.
romingk@alleg.edu
From: ac@riemann.math.mun.ca (Alka Chandna)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Who is forcing Idealism? (Was: Re: Quote from Clinton?)
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:34:18 GMT
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland

alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace) writes:


>How would Clinton feel about those who's ideological bent would seek to
>limit America's *choice* to eat whatever it wants.

>alex the omnivore


Look omnivore, who's "limiting your choice" to eat whatever (shit) you want?
Is someone pointing a gun to your head saying, "if you put that piece of cow
in your mouth instead of this tofu I'll blow your fucking head off"?
I didn't think so.  Get it straight:  a suggestion isn't an order.  Stop your
petty whining.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Re: La Cat Shooting Experiments
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:00:20 GMT

In article <C1FG81.EyF@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>
>I'm hoping the Times-Picayune will get involved at this point,
>and pressure some of the "anonymous" folks at LSUMC to make
>public statements.
>
>--
>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
>russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ


Russell, I certainly hope that you would never be present outside
of my door on those occasions I am tempting my cat into her cage
for a trip to the vet.  You might assume I was a cat torturer.







:
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.peeves
From: Blair.Haworth@launchpad.unc.edu (Blair Haworth)
Subject: Re: "... man tends to be lazy"
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:53:45 GMT

In article <1jn7jhINN9lm@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM writes:

>Given the above, it's easy to understand how the relatively few men in
>the animal rights movement are often looked upon as wimps and sissies.
>As children, most of them were probably the sort of kids who often got
>pantsed by the schoolyard bully during recess.  

Actually, I was that kind of kid - clueless, trusting, nearsighted,
uncoordinated - and it turned me into a weapons freak rather than a
bunnyhugger.  Nothing to make the little thugs back off like being able to
discuss all kinds of dismemberment technology with That Certain Gleam in
your eye.  Jesus Perforated Christ, I'm probably is some bonehead
counselor's file as a borderline psycho.

Peeve: junior high school ("The lowest pit of Hell" -- Matt Groening)

!peeve:  Now I'm 6'2" and 240#.  No one gets to pants me except my
dissertation committee.  And my wife, I guess.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Hypothetical case (was Re: Silver Spring monkeys)
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:41:51 GMT
Organization: WP Group

From article <1993Jan26.230142.23075@samba.oit.unc.edu>, by itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken):
>>How often do these visits occur?  And, can we assume that they're
>>conducted with greater diligence than the USDA's daily, on-site 
>>inspections of US packing plants?
>>
> The facilities recieved an unanounced visit from the feds once a year. 
> The review committee visits the facilities any number of times a year, as
> they are on the premisis.  Committees that review particular grants often
> request to see the facilities when they are here.  This does not mention
> workers and vets that are on the premisis daily.
> 
> What's with the packing plants.  Another ploy to divert the topic?

Why should we assume that a once-a-year visit from a USDA employee
would be effective in enforcing the requirements set forth in the
AWA?   Has the USDA been effective in enforcing the requirements
imposed on packing plants?  

If you were working at LSUMC and voiced complaints about the care
and conditions of animals used in experiments, do you really think your
complaints would be heeded?

>>> This committee, composed of scientist vets and laymen
>>> have no reason not to report violations.
>>
>>Yes, they do.  If you were an employee of LSU Medical School, your
>>butt would be in a sling if you caused waves that might inconvenience
>>a researcher with political connections.
>>
> Well LSU has problems, if it is as you say.  Though I find that hard to
> believe.  And am curious were you get the information.

Good question.  I'm hoping that I'll be able to make my information
public within a few weeks, thanks to Sixty Minutes.   

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
From: jpoller@novell.com (Contents may have settled during Shipping)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Combine'd' laziness
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:34:10 GMT
Organization: The Electoral Collage

(Russell Lawrence) writes:
=> According to the sources I mentioned in the previous article, it 
=> takes 17,000 kilocalories to produce one kilo of raw, trimmed 
=> beef in the US.  According to the USDA's Handbook-8 data, 1.43 
=> kilos of raw hamburger, after cooking to a medium state, weighs 1 
=> kilo and contains 2870 calories.  According to my quick calculations, 
=> it takes 24,310 calories of input to produce an output of 2870
=> calories, which works out to a ratio of 8.47.   Gee, Rob was right.
=> That's not very efficient, is it?

Efficient Compared to What.  Cite Sources Now.  You've lots of data on
beef.  How much energy does it take to create a 1 kilo  soy burger.
How much energy and water does it take to turn wheat into bread.  

=> Incidently, it's worth mentioned that all of the calories in
=> the hamburger come from fats and proteins

Incidently, I get a lot more from a hamburger than energy.  I get
protien, fat, iron, and various other goodly little niggly bits.

---
Jack Noze -- jpoller@novell.com

	"Its not the size, its the sensitivity that counts" -- JennyG
	
	"Your battery is dead.  I couldn't have come up with a more suitable
	    analogy, myself." -- andy banta@abingdon.sun.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Combine'd' laziness
Organization: WP Group
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:15:27 GMT

From article <viking.727866518@vincent2.iastate.edu>, by viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson):
> In <C1A0Hr.9Gz@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
> 
>>Which one of these "single use categories" [your terminology] is
>>indispensable?    "livestock agriculture" or "non-livestock 
>>agriculture" ?
> 
> 	Why does either "need" to be dispensed with, given that we're
> already feeding everybody and their pet cow already?

Perhaps you weren't following the thread closely.  We were discussing
the impact that livestock agriculture was having on California water
supplies.

> There has not been a single reason posted, save the emotional
> qualms about slaughter, that cites any need at present.

How about methane emissions, nitrate pollution, acid rain, etc, 
etc?  And, how about water shortages, desertification, use of 
(non-renewable) petrochemicals in livestock agriculture, etc, 
etc?  If you don't wish to discuss these issues, why don't you simply 
bow-out of the conversation instead of preaching to us about what 
we need to discuss or don't need to discuss at the present time.  

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
From: alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Cattle Issue
Date: 28 Jan 1993 11:18:34 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: donald.cc.utexas.edu


In article <C1H4JD.1w0@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>From article <1k2ff1INNdnf@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, by alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace):
>> Did it ever occur to any of you cattle doomsdayers that this country was
>> once blanketed in cattle, buffalo!  Hundreds of millions of buffalo, which
>> are bigger than modern cows, ate, drank, and farted all over this land for
>> thousands and thousands of years!  Boom!
>> 
>> We have nothing to fear from the cattle industry.
>
>Did those buffalo live in feedlots?  And hence, did their manure 
>collect in oxygen-free ponds where it might decay anaerobically?

It is false to assume that the manure of modern cows is not spread
sporatically around their grazing land.  Cattle do not use a latrine so
there is no chance of their manure collecting in a pond.  No matter where
the manure is dropped, it will decay anaerobically in the bellies of
nitrogen fixing microbes.

>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000

alex the omnivore



Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Re: La Cat Shooting Experiments
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:55:26 GMT

In article <C1H47y.1u6@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>From article <1993Jan25.220020.17190@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by jhoskins@m
agnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins):
>> In article <C1FG81.EyF@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>>>
>>>I'm hoping the Times-Picayune will get involved at this point,
>>>and pressure some of the "anonymous" folks at LSUMC to make
>>>public statements.
>>
>> Russell, I certainly hope that you would never be present outside
>> of my door on those occasions I am tempting my cat into her cage
>> for a trip to the vet.  You might assume I was a cat torturer.
>
>Are you suggesting that I can't tell the difference between the
>act of shooting cats and the act of taking a reluctant cat to the
>vet?

"Fact" and "reason" suggest to me that if you are behind a closed
door you may not be able to tell if I am torturing my cat or
trying to put her into a cage for her own benefit.  Would you allow
this possibility?  After all, your're a dog person.

>
>If/when Carey's funding is reinstated, would you be willing to
>donate your cat to his project?
>
>--
>Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
>russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ


No.  If and when funding is reinstated would you be willing to
donate your dog?

I am interested in your position on use of pound animals in
those animal research projects which meet your approval.  Care to
comment?




: