HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:49:41 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

>	POSTED FOR BRUCE BENNING
>
>
>>  Jesus said NOTHING going into a man can defile him.  
>>  Does NOTHING mean nothing?
>
>  The "nothing" Yeshua is talking about (IMHO) is what tradition said 
>  would defile you if you didn't perform the special union hand washing.
>  Things like Gentile germs and such. 

Bruce,

I appreciate what you're saying, and the way you've arrived at your
conclusions.

Let me say, though, that I'm still puzzled.  Many commentators suggest that
Mark was writing to a Gentile audience.  The reason for this position is
the way he seems to explain Jewish words and customs to his audience.  For
instance, in Mark 7:11 he parenthetically interprets "korban" as a gift. 
Now, if Mark were writing to non-Jews, it seems odd that he would make a
apparently blanket statement like "thus he declared all foods clean"
without further explaining that he really didn't mean "all foods" in a
literal sense just "all ritually unclean food according to the common
Jewish tradition of the day."  You may be right in your analysis, but I
still not convinced.

But, let me get this straight, is it your contention that a person today
can still put something into his mouth that will defile him, i.e., make him
ritually unclean for a time?  In other words, you wouldn't be made unclean
by eating with a Gentile, but you would be make unclean if you ate Gentile
food?  If so, what does such a person do to become ritually clean again?

Keep up the good work.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Knowing HaShem
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:02:37 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <l790pcINNc88@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.171056.18041@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
|> >I too was a little disturbed by Kenneth's mention that "positive relations"
|> >are not a worthy goal of themselves.  If everything we do is only aimed at
|> >getting a conversion, . . .
|> 
..
|> Let me quote a friend of mine, Michael Scott Horton, speaking about
|> "felt needs":
|> 	If I, as a minister of the gospel, don't make my listeners
|> 	experience a "felt need" of deliverance and forgiveness of sin
|> 	from the face of the God who is an Holy all-consuming fire,
|> 	then I've failed as a communicator of the gospel.
|> 
|> Rob Strom, please read the above paragraph again.  The Christian message
|> is an offense! 

I know.  At least your version is.

Why is it that Steve Warren asks Kenneth Hendrickson a question
and Kenneth answers by making a holy rollers speech to me?

|> So Rob, here's the message one more time:  Both you and your young
|> children have evil sinful natures.  

So Kenneth, here's the message one more time:  Stay away from my children.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Jesus Declares All Foods Clean
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:33:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 -=> Quoting Spawn Of A Jewish Carpenter (cindy  to All <=-
Oh; I get it.  Basically; you are saying that the "scholars" you are
quoting are saying that the Jewish Messiah is saying that when one
poops in the toilet, it suddenly makes all the foods clean to eat that
previously G-d had declared unclean; since He's now changing His
mind.
     Thanks but no thanks!

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean and unclean under the new covenant
Date: 20 Jul 92 18:49:06 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <LJMORLY.92Jul17115517@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>> [I'm posting this for Bill Hamilton who seems to be experiencing trouble
>> with his connection to alt.messianic.]
>[The rest of the stuff deleted]
>
>To Bill and others as well: Be carefull ! TA is not wanting us to know
>the truth, he's just trying to "convert" us to think exactly as he does.
>He accepts *nothing* we say, if it goes against what he thinks. 
                      ^^

Who is the phantom "we" you're referring to?

"Not wanting us to know the truth."  I have repeatedly quoted the Bible to
support my statements in this forum.  I am hiding nothing from no one. 
What is their for me to hide?  Am I that all powerful that I can hide the
truth from you?

Laura, your paranoia is showing.  Get a grip on yourself.

>BTW Tom, why do you think you are right and everyone else is wrong ?
>Some inner voice, maybe ?

"Everyone else?"  Laura, do you speak for everyone in this forum?  I
haven't noticed "everyone" agreeing with either you or Bruce T. or Rob or
me on every single subject.  I think you're are deceived to think that
everyone is "against" me and "for" you.

Besides, I don't want anyone to agree with me.  I want them to be like the
noble Bereans of the book of Acts.  I want them to read and study God's
word for themselves and come to conclusions based on it.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: danl@col.hp.com (Daniel Lockhart)
Subject: Re: knowing HaShem
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:04:54 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> In article <l6p1pdINN5er@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
> |> In article <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> |> >Such an effort would be considerably more
> |> >productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
> |> >attempts.
> |> 
> |> Rob,
> |> 	We (believers in Yeshua) are not interested in having "positive
> |> relations" with you, as an end in itself.  What we are interested in is
> |> having you come to know HaShem, and be saved from your sins.  Everything
> |> else is secondary, and pales in importance to your eternal destiny.  But,
> |> if having "positive relations" will be a means to further this important
> |> end, then we're all for it.
> |> 
> I think that the above very frankly states what Messianic "Judaism" and all
> similar evangelical movements are about.  You have only one goal ---
> to convert us to Christianity.  Anything else you do is only
> a means to that end.
> 
> That's why it's important for me to know who you all are
> so that my children are safe from you until they reach
> an age when they understand who you are and what you
> are trying to do.  It's why my 7-year-old child is not allowed
> to take a walk alone with her aunt and uncle.
> -- 
Just an outsider's point of view Rob, I see it as someone trying to let you
know that the bridge is out up ahead.  If you want to drive off the end, that's
your decision.  

Daniel
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:53:23 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Jul22.182930.12600@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>hand of the Nazis.  Therefore, anyone who suggests that the Nazis were
>special divine punishment are way off base.

It is a common error for men to assume that affliction is proof of
God's judgement.  This is refuted by many experiences recorded in
scripture, including Job, Jeremiah, and others.  These men were
friends of God, and therefore those who hated God and His ways
attacked them.  Their affliction was not an indication of failure,
but of righteousness.  In this world people who do what is right are
often made to suffer grieveously for their determination to serve
God.  It is not God who makes them suffer, but His enemies.

In addition to this, many times bad things happen to people as a
result of the curse that is upon the whole earth.  As Yeshua said
when the people wanted to know why a tower fell and killed some men
in another town, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish."

To perish is the common destiny of every human being, unless God
explicitely intervenes to prevent it.  Therefore when people perish
at the hands of cruel and sadistic men, this is not out of character
with the world that we live in, or the kind of people that we have
become since we rebelled against God and sided with His enemy, Satan.

That is why we urge men everywhere to become reconciled to God
through God's only intermediary with men, Yeshua HaMashiach, who has
made the way of escape through the torn curtain of his own body.  God
demonstrated that Yeshua was the approved One when God raised him
from the dead.

Everyone who avoids The Door, who is Yeshua, will remain remain in
this dark place of judgement, and will perish.  I urge you to enter
into the place of shelter through The Door and receive God's mercy,
instead of remaining under the cloud of His anger.  For God has
appointed a Day when the whole world will be judged by the man He has
annointed and given the Name above every other name.  In that Day,
everyone who is approved by Yeshua will enter into honor in the
presense of the Lord.

Yeshua said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to
the Father except by me."  Today is the day of God's favor; today is
the day of salvation.  Put your trust in Him today while it is still
the day of mercy.  In the day of wrath it will be too late.

-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V  
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Knowing Hashem
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:56:20 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <139310.2A6F777B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
|> 
|>  -=> Quoting Rob Strom to All <=-
|> 
|>  RS> From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
|>  RS> Date: 22 Jul 92 15:41:17 GMT
|>  RS> Organization: IBM Research
|>  RS> Message-ID: <1992Jul22.154117.22108@watson.ibm.com>
|>  RS> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
|>  RS> 
|>  RS> In article <l6p1pdINN5er@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu
|>  RS> (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes: |> In article
|>  RS> <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
|>  RS> (Robert I think that the above very frankly states what Messianic
|>  RS> "Judaism" and all similar evangelical movements are about.  You
|>  RS> have only one goal --- to convert us to Christianity.  Anything
|>  RS> else you do is only a means to that end.
|>       Rob; I have to agree with you on one thing.  You are totally
|>       confused as to what Messianic Judaism is all about; if you could
|>       even think of putting that lable on the same box with Tom A. and
|>       Kenneth H..  But, one thing is a puzzle to me?  Why did you state
|>       this as: (Robert I think the above...)   Aren't you Robert
|>       talking TO Kenneth?
|> 
Your editor mangled the article.

The original post read:
|> In article <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
          ======here is where you truncated it.....................................^
|> >Such an effort would be considerably more
|> >productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
|> >attempts.
[followed by Kenneth's response], followed by my response, beginning "I think..."].

And I don't label Tom A. and Kenneth H. as Messianics.  But I believe
what I actually wrote, namely that although Kenneth is not Messianic,
his words, namely these:
|> 	We (believers in Yeshua) are not interested in having "positive
|> relations" with you, as an end in itself.  What we are interested in is
|> having you come to know HaShem, and be saved from your sins.  Everything
|> else is secondary, and pales in importance to your eternal destiny.  But,
|> if having "positive relations" will be a means to further this important
|> end, then we're all for it.
aptly characterize the views of evangelic Christians like Kenneth and Messianics.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: It's the same Judaism
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:14:16 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Jul22.182930.12600@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>Of course the one BIG distinction between the Assyrians/Babylonians/Romans
>and the Nazis is that God NEVER predicted the punishment of Jews at the
>hand of the Nazis.  Therefore, anyone who suggests that the Nazis were
>special divine punishment are way off base.

Yes, I believe that I made the same point in course of the discussion
in this thread.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Subject: Re: Dan.9 (was: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: alt.messianic
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:18:23 GMT

In regards to Ruben's post, I must say I couldn't have said it better myself.

Maybe we could look to tie the Daniel 9 prophecy in with the rest of what
Daniel had to say.

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: A question about Timothy
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:44:50 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Timothy, the disciple of Paul, had a Jewish mother and a Gentile father. 
In Acts 16 Paul has Timothy circumcised so as to not offend the Jews among
whom they were ministering.

My questions:

At that point in Jewish history, prior to his circumcision would Timothy
have been considered a Jew?  In other words at that time was Judaism
matriarchal or patriarchal?

What about after?  Did circumcision make him a Jew?

What was it that would have offended the Jews?  The fact that as a Jew he
had not been circumcised?  Or the fact that Paul was taking a non-Jew among
the Jews?

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:10:18 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 TA=>The historic fact is that the vast majority of the Jewish 
 TA=>disciples of
 TA=>Jesus went hand-in-hand with their Gentile brethren into the 
 TA=>early Church. 

Again intellectual voodoo.  Come on Tom, you well know that during the days 
of the apostles there was only the Jewish Church, and the few gentiles that 
Paul had reached during his day, and the great question was: What do we do 
with these gentiles who believe in our Messiah  CF Acts 10,11,15....

While the Jewish Church dominated the Kehillah of both Jews and Non Jews it 
was in the 3rd century when the scism took place between MJ's and Non 
Jewish christians... 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:14:38 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Bill Carlson
Suj: Tom Albrecht

Shalom Bill, Since tom is totally anti semitic, and intellectually 
dishonest, it is better not to even dialogue with him, but just correct his 
statements to others.

He is certainly scattering folks away from the Messiah, and not gathering 
into the barns.

One of his latest posts is insinuation that because Jews are once again 
embracing their Messiah, that somehow that makes him second class.

This is a feeling amongst a lot of Christians, that if God returns to the 
apple of his eye then what will happen to us.  Their position seems unclear 
to them, because they have espoused replacement theology so long that now 
they are unsettled.

While we near the closing of the gentile age, it by no means is an end to 
the Church, just the age.  Those who believe and are converted from amongst 
the gentiles remain joint heirs with Messiah,as we Jews who are grafted 
back in.  When Yeshua comes back, they will be caught up to meet the L-rd 
in the air, just as we shall.  I Thess 4....

It is best not to argue with such as Tom, for his entire theology is 
shaken.  And he is lashing out... Not in Love, but out of despite, and 
anger.

Do you know his denominational affiliation? 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Dan. 9 (was: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:36:11 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <LJMORLY.92Jul29125025@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
|> I got some problems with my mainframe, and I thought I didn't get through
|> my msg:s concerning Dan. 9 so I posted it 3 times... Hope you got them.
|> Enjoy! :-)
|> 
|> - Laura

But they weren't your messages!

You reposted some material that Ruben Gonzales and Bruce
Tiffany had posted some time ago, much of which has
already been further responded to.

You didn't raise the level of the discussion at all,
and you sidestepped the original subject of the
post you were responding to, namely:  Missionizing
to 2-year-olds.  Perhaps we can hear some original
views from you on that subject.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:54:56 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <139234.2A672EC0@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>
>BH> ...which include it are the Amplified, the New American Standard...
> 
>You'll also note that it is given in []'s.  The reason for this; is
>the entire 1st half of the statement isn't even in the Greek.  ...

Not in the NASB.  There are no brackets, no marginal comments regarding the
text, nothing.  In other words the translators of the NASB had no reason to
identify the text as questionable.  Last evening I happened to be in a
Christian bookstore and consulted a number of commentaries on Mark.  None
of them hinted at questionable text in Mark 7:19.

As to context, that's quite plain.  Jesus said NOTHING going into a man can
defile him.  Does NOTHING mean nothing?  It would seem to in this instance.
The text and context is plain.  Food cannot defile.

The reason, according to I Timothy, the Word of God has come and "purified"
all that God created.  We are no longer to call unclean what Almighty God,
Jesus Christ, has declared clean.

Suppose a Jewish convert to Messiah came to my congregation and he asked me
to disciple him in the law of God, and he asked me the following
questions:

Objectively speaking, is it sin today for a Jewish believer in Messiah
Jesus to fail to circumcise his male child on the 8th day?

Objectively speaking, is it sin today for a Jewish believer in Messiah
Jesus to fail to celebrate Yom Kippur?

Why or why not?

How should I disciple this convert to Messiah?

I would be interested in anyone's answers, not just Bill.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:42:58 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <LJMORLY.92Jul28163549@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.144841.24701@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
|> > I am Jewish, but support religious pluralism.  While
|> > it may be intellectually interesting to discuss and
|> > debate with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, or atheists,
|> > ultimately I am more interested in understanding
|> > others' views on religion than in changing them.
|> 
|> Thus, you believe that truth is relative. God is the Truth and He says:
|> Shma Israel, Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem echad !
|> 
No.  I don't believe that truth is relative.
You have just made an incredible leap of logic ---
equating tolerance of other religions with
belief in the relativity of truth.  How in the
world can you defend making such a jump?

I believe that the truth is that it is impossible
at best and counterproductive at worst
to try to change other people's religious views by
arguing on the network.  Especially when you don't
understand these views.

I believe that the truth is that it is wrong to
frighten 2-year-olds into agreeing with your religious
belief.

I believe that the truth is God doesn't cast people into hell
for having the "wrong" religious belief.

You think you know more of the truth then you actually do.
You're still struggling to figure out what one verse
in Daniel or one phrase in Psalm 110 means, and to
defend it publically --- you think you know enough
to tell my baby daughter that she's going to burn
in hell unless she rejects her parents' religion?

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598