From: rsr@SODA.BERKELEY.EDU (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Women and I: An Explanation?
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:10:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: soda.9210170210.AA03691


I recently posted some articles on here regarding some of my feelings
regarding several issues, most of them regarding women.

A very good friend of mine, whose opinion I value highly (namely Mike Lloyd)
let me know some of the stuff I said may have been interpreted to mean I'm a
sexist pig.  Since that wasn't my impression I wrote him a letter explaining
my position in full and excruciating detail to him, then asked him how he
felt about me posting my reply to soc.bi by way of explaining some of the
things I said ... He thought it was a rather OK idea.

So, here goes.

One minor warning: The following contains some discussion of sex and my
views about it.  You may not agree with it.



(the stuff in '>' are excerpts from Mike's letter, obviously)

>There certainly is an odd tone to some of your comments about women

Hmm ... possibly ... I'll have to re-explain myself, I suppose ... 

>What I mean is that you talk about not wanting to do certain things with
>women, and it's not clear *why*.  It may not be clear to you either, but

OK.  The whole discussion was about going down on people.  Now, on a certain
level, going down on a person is sort of like ... well, servicing them ...
there is a _clear_ (to me) power differential between the giver and the
receiver of a blowjob and/or the female equivalent of it, where the person
receiving the pleasure exercises power over the person giving it ... This is
how _I_ feel about it, rather than perhaps how it is.

Now, I can deal with a man going down on me ... that's fair, I don't have
any power issues that stop me from doing it ...

But when you start dealing with the concept of a woman going down on me,
that feels to me like I'm exercising power over her ... what she's doing
isn't physically pleasing her ... it's just physically pleasing me ... and
the concept of a woman doing something to exclusively physically please me
squicks me badly, probably for the same reason that the opposite, me doing
something to a woman to exclusively physically please her turns me on to no
end ...




>there is a point to watch out for:
>This is is *not* an accusation.  It is a fact about gay society.  A small
>minority of gay men are very sexist.  They talk about how they find the idea
>of sex with women to be disgusting.  

I _don't_ find the idea of sex with women disgusting.  Not _at all_.
There's nothing that I wouldn't do with a woman if she really wanted it
(within the context of sex.  BDSM is another matter).  It's just that my
attitude about a woman going down on me is something along the lines of
"Well, if you really really want to, I suppose ... <inner sigh>", where my
attitude about going down on a woman is something along the lines of
"*bounce against the walls* *goofy smile* Oh, cool, may I ?!
Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease may I ?!" (The latter is also my attitude
about going down on a man, actually, though I've tried the latter (and
enjoyed it immensly) while I haven't tried the former).

>My personal theory is that they do this in
>response to the common male idea that sodomy is somehow disgusting.
>Anyway, why they do it is not important.  The fact is they do.
>Furthermore, some of these people are very insensitive and chauvinist.
>The world is full of assholes, and they get everywhere.  Now >not< >for<
>>one< >instant< do I want you to imagine I'm saying you're in that
>group.  

*grin* Mike, come on ... I've known you well enough, long enough, to trust
that if you tell me I'm an asshole, I probably am.  If you're not telling me
I'm an asshole, you're probably not telling me ...

In other words, I've exchanged enough email with you to trust you to come
out and tell me when I'm being stupid/bitter/chauvinistic/asshole/whatever
... Thank you.  I won't presume that you imply something unless you tell me
you do ... 

>What I'm saying is that this is the background some people will
>read you against - gay male anti-women feeling.  

But ... but ... I'm not gay ...  Or at least, I don't think so.
And my general feelings regarding women are positive, I'd think ...
They also tend to be along the lines of "Women get enough
shit from men without having to deal with shit from me, so I'll crowl in the
corner and be very very quiet so as not to bother them," which tends to be
somewhat defeatist at times ... I dunno ... I just really really don't ever
want to alienate a woman (Not like I haven't already done that *sigh*), or
bother / annoy / be over-agressive / frighten a woman in any way ... That's
why I tend to get really really shy around women I don't know very well,
much more so than around men I don't know very well ... this is changing
slowly, but until then, in many senses of the word, women make me
uncomfortable, in short, because I don't want to make _them_ uncomfortable.

>In that context, it's
>necessary to make clear what youre *not* saying, as well as what you
>are.  That is, that you don't *hate* women at all (OK, so it sounds dumb
>to have to say it if you're bi, but all the same).  As I say, I'm not
>sure I see what you *are* saying - thay you're afraid?  Or that the
>power thing would bug you?  Or what?  The squick comes from somewhere,
>but if you are going to talk about it (which I believe 100% you should)
>you have to be careful to distance yourself from another squick, being
>this gay-male, anti-women thing.

OK ... did the above make any sense?

---------
Roy S. Rapoport           rsr@soda.berkeley.edu            rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu
                   The few.  The proud.  The geeks.
DISCLAIMER:  "I meant every word of it ... but nobody else did."
Newsgroups: soc.bi