HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson)
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:21:41 GMT

In article   <92255.155349C05705DA@wuvmd.wustl.edu>,         C05705DA@WUVMD writes:
> If William Penn was not the conqueror, then who was?  As I have previously

Believe it or not the land was actually purchased legally from the
Native Americans in this area.  Penn's relations with the Indians
were honest and peaceful.  His descendents were less honest and
later cheated the Indians because they hired professional walkers
to survey some more territory to be purchased in the infamous
Walking Purchase.  But even later, the Indians brought the issue to
court and won back some land.

Sorry I don't have dates or details; I hope to review a little on
Penn and the Indians, but no promises.
Still, from past reading I can say that in general, regarding the
Indians, the behavior of the Quakers and Moravians, both of whom
were conscientious objectors in the old days, was above reproach.
Sadly, there were some massacres by others in later years.
From: west@mgmt3.ncsl.nist.gov (Jim West)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: William Penn
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:54:28 GMT
Organization: Syetem and Network Architecture Division, CSL, National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Sep10.183029.5093@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne) writes:
>In article <92247.074829C05705DA@wuvmd.wustl.edu> C05705DA@WUVMD writes:
>>Looking back through history, I'm having trouble with the forgotten
>>century.  I know Pennsylvania was named after William Penn.  However,

One note.  Pennsylvania was named after Penn's father (I believe he was also
a William, but not the same William who got the deed for the land).

>>where I'm running into trouble, I remember that Penn defeated the Dutch

Not likely.  William Penn was a devout Quaker.  Quakers are pacifists and
do not believe in war/fighting for _any_ reason.

>>and signed a treaty that gave him New Amsterdam, now New York City, and
>>New Netherlands, now New York state.  So, did he recieve Pennsylvania
>>charter from England after he conquered the Dutch, or was it involved in
>>conquest some way or another?  I seem to remember some how that all of this
>>also involved East and West Jersey and Deleware.  Could someone shed some
>>info on me please?  thanks.

I can fill in some parts about Delaware.  The area that is now the state of
Delaware was part of the land that the King of England deeded to William
Penn.  (Whether the King had the authority to do this is another matter) These
lower three counties of Pennsylvania broke away from the colony of Pennsylvania 
just before the revolutionary war (I don't know the date).  Penn received the
deed from the King in return for the cancalation of a dept the Crown owed
his father.  

Jim
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim West
National Institute of Standards and Technology
west@mgmt3.ncsl.nist.gov
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 3 September, 1942
Date: 5 Sep 92 15:30:10 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

rlwst8+@pitt.edu (Robert L Williamson) writes:

>I have heard lots of rummors of how General Rommel got killed.  How did he get
>killed? (I even heard one rummor he committed suicide).

It's a long story, but you're right.
fr
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Newsgroups: soc.history,bit.listserv.history
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:01:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.060049.28411@europa.lonestar.org> tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball) writes:
>>>Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it? 
>
>OK.  Its time for a geography lesson for you both.

Wish you folks had got this right the first time around.  Using the 
Associated Press Broadcast News Handbook:

North America = U.S., Canada, Mexico, AND the Danish Territory of
Greenland

South America = Everything south of Panama, but French Guiana, Guyana 
& Surinam considered themselves part of the Caribbean "politically
and psychologically."

Central America =  Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala,
Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama.

Latin America = Americas south of U.S. where Romance languages are
spoken.

Other terms defined include the Caribbean & West Indies.

Oh, and I'll put my money on Tenochtitlan (renamed Mexico City)
as the oldest city (still inhabited) in North America.  But Roanoke
and St. Augustine are not the earliest settlements:  that honor
belongs to the settlements of the Norsemen (I forget the date
for Greenland, but Vinland was around 1000 A.D. and was probably
Newfoundland).

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:53:55 CST
From:         C05705DA@WUVMD
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:         Pennsylvania
Newsgroups:   soc.history

If William Penn was not the conqueror, then who was?  As I have previously
posted, this area is very hazy to me, way back in Junior High days.
Could some please sum up the whole episode involving Penn, Dutch, England,
New Netherlands, etc.  What I found is info on Deleware and the Jerseys,
but not much on the treaties, etc.  thanks.
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: slavery
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:52:54 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Distribution: soc.history
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U


In article <1992Sep8.185336.14589@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:
>In article <visser.715972035@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:
>>In <43448@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>+>What I would love to knoe is - was slavery known much before the mass
>>+>slave trade in which millions of Africans were enslaved? The book
>>+>doesn't cover this yet ( I'm only half-way through).
>>
>>	Could feudalism be counted as a form of Slavery?  The conditions
>>were certainly not comparable to the african slave trade, but feudalism
>>did control those working the land to a considerable extent.
>>
>
>Commercial slavery requires trading networks capable of moving goods, 
>including slaves, in large quantities for long distances.  Both the 
>Europeans and the Arabs set up these types of networks for transporting
>slaves out of Africa.  War-related slavery could then dovetail with 
>commercial slavery.
>

There seems to have been a gap in Britain anyway, of some several
hundred years between the days of serfdom and the mass enslavement
of Africans. What made European nations think they could buy African
people to use as labour. This is what I don't understand? Did they
get the idea from the Arabs? Were there perhaps always a small number of
slaves in Britain? Wree they all black? Indeed was it a persons
blackness that made them eligible for slavery??

Sorry for all the questions..

M













--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
Newsgroups: soc.history,bit.listserv.history
From: tom@europa.lonestar.org (Tom Kimball)
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Organization: Moria Mining Guild (BBS) -- Dallas, Texas, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:00:49 GMT

In article <mftnfj=.garyg@netcom.com> garyg@netcom.com (Gary Greene) writes:
>fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
>
>>Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it? 
>
>Yes it is.  Central America starts at Mexico's southern border, and North
>America stops there.  Perhaps you are confusing Latin America with South
>and Central America.
>

OK.  Its time for a geography lesson for you both.

North America = everything north of the Columbia-Panama border.
South America = everything south of the Columbia-Panama border.

Central America [part of North America] = everything north of the 
	Columbia-Panama border and south of the southern Mexican border.

Latin America = South America + Central America + Mexico 
Anglo America = U.S. + Canada


Back to the original poster's question:

I know that Mexico City was the old Aztec capital.  That makes it a good 
candidate for the oldest city in North America.  I believe that 
St. Augustine, Florida is the oldest city in Anglo America.  I think it 
was founded sometime around 1542.

-- 
Tom Kimball  			tom@europa.lerctr.org    
tom@europa.lonestar.org		tom%europa@egsner.cirr.com
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: RE: CONSCRIPTS WHO CAN'T
Date: 13 Sep 92 04:03:35 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <4970.3248.uupcb@factory.com>, michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
> 
> The Advanced Racist Garbage Insult Creator (ARGIC) said:
>> Sea novices: Although famed as a maritime nation and despite being
>> surrounded by seas, a report has disclosed that only one in ten
>> conscripts called up to join the Greek navy can swim.
>>
>> Poor "paliks".

Actually, you don't need to know how to swim to be a good sailer. 
Many sailers chose not to learn how to swim during the days of the
wooden sailing ships.  If the ship sank, they'd die faster, instead of
the anger being prolonged.  === Al Sparks
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:14:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamarack.CB.92Sep4161437
	<1992Sep3.203732.26026@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
	<STEINLY.92Sep3160613@topaz.ucsc.edu>
	<JMC.92Sep3230431@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: pubs
In-reply-to: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU's message of 3 Sep 92 23:04:31

John McCarthy writes:

   From the historical point of view, grand Indian alliances against the
   whites seem obviously appropriate for them.  However, from the point
   of view of individual tribes, the main problem may have been other
   tribes rather than the whites.  Moreover, it may be that most of the
   time, most tribes were at peace ...

Actually they fought far too much among themselves.  Even to the very
end of Indian control of territory (1890), the tribes were still
fighting _one_another_ for control of the remaining Indian land, rather
than uniting against white encroachment.  My impression is that in
general they never, from Squanto to Sitting Bull, got a useful
perspective on the threat they faced.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: soc.history,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
From: sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)
Subject: Re: Mutlu renamed Argic?
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 20:00:16 GMT

In article <visser.715721375@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:
>In <4624.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
>
>
>+>Fellas, does anyone know how I get get an archive of older Newsgroup
>+>postings? Because these following paragraphy of Argic's is 99% the
>+>same as a Mutlu posting about a month ago. It looks like
>+>we are dealing with the same person (?program?) here.
>
>	Dont bother. . . .  
>       The conclusion is that this is either the "real" Multu posting 
>under a different name or one of the former "other" multus (i.e. those
>who were posting under his name like Ahmet Cosar) who has decided to 
>stop being Multu.
>

I think that Tom Baker was the best Dr. Who.  Everyone else who has played
the role over the last 25 years pales in comparison.

Similarly, Argic, the new ``mutlu'' is a really pale imitation of the old
one.  His opening insults lack zest.  He omits entirely the followup
insults, an area in which Hasan, the old ``mutlu,'' showed an, at times, 
inspired zaniness.  Perhaps Argic has a less fluent command of English, or 
perhaps he is simply a dolt.  If the former, he may grow on us (as well as 
grate).  Otherwise we are in for a long dull wait, until he steps down.  

Thanks to Lance Visser for his continued vigilance against any denigration
of the Turks.

As always:
                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)

And have a nice day!

--Stuart Sechrest


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen)
Subject: Re: US colonializing (Was: An open letter to the Emperor Akihito of Jap
Originator: mark@agnew
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 09:12:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.151925.319@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com 
Michael Goldman writes:

        My point remains, that the US had the capacity to mount
        a force sufficient to gain whatever part of China she might have
        wanted.  That she did not was due to many factors, but industrial
        incapacity (what I mean by "weakness") was not one of them.

A question about this. Michael Goldman thinks the US could have gained any
bit of china they liked on the basis of military factors. Maybe they could.
What did the US government and people think at the time. If either one or
both felt that militarily they could not (at reasonable cost) have 
"grabbed land" then surely it makes no odds how big their navy was.
In cases like this the most important thing is a countries belief in 
itself. Few offensive wars have been fought by countries who thought they
were going to loose. Except under peculiar economic circumstances. 
Was the US so economically desperate at the time (~1890) that it needed to
fight a far away war to gain a market. This is not some thing that the US
was used to doing. Britain, France and the Portuguese etc. had been fighting 
wars abroad for a long time, by then almost 300 years. These were simply 
extensions of wars of greed and expansion that stemmed directly from local
squabbles with the next door country in Europe. The US government without
this history of imperialist aggression, may simply not at that time have
been able to convince themselves, their powerful supporters or their
constituents that any type of conquest of China was necessary. What were
the thoughts of the US government towards aggression at the time.

Mark Cohen
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: slavery
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:07:47 GMT
Distribution: soc.history
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:

>Interesting question. I'd be very interested to see any answers. I'm
>presently reading "Black Ivory - A History of British Slavery"

>What I would love to knoe is - was slavery known much before the mass
>slave trade in which millions of Africans were enslaved? The book
>doesn't cover this yet ( I'm only half-way through).

Slaves (thralls) were one of the three parts (estates?) of society according
to old nordic mythology. (The other two were peasants and nobles. There is a
story of how the god Heimdal takes a trip to Midgard and becomes the fore-
father of all three estates.)

I'll let others supply examples from other parts of the world, but slavery
is propably as old as mankind. As for the first example of enslavement
because of race I don't know. Jews in Egypt?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
- "You don't like the Goths?"
-  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
-  "Persecution?"
-  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
-  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
-  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"

                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Non-Europeans in 17th-Century Britain
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 01:25:32 GMT

Does anyone have a recommendation for good sources on non-Europeans in
Britain in the 17th Century?  I mean the homeland, not the various
colonies.

Africans, Asians, Native Americans - any or all: I'm interested in
their history in Britain, especially in the 1640s and 1650s.  Numbers
and status, particularly.

All responses appreciated.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: salter_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Non-Europeans in 17th-Century Britain
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:31:16 +0900

In article <1992Sep7.012532.26965@oz.plymouth.edu>, sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
> Does anyone have a recommendation for good sources on non-Europeans in
> Britain in the 17th Century?  I mean the homeland, not the various
> colonies.
> 
> Africans, Asians, Native Americans - any or all: I'm interested in
> their history in Britain, especially in the 1640s and 1650s.  Numbers
> and status, particularly.
> 
> All responses appreciated.
[B> 
> -- 
>   - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu

Sorry I can't help with historical sources, but one of the more notable
contributions in fiction is "Nothing Like the Sun", by Anthony Burgess.
It's a fictional life of Shakespeare, & Burgess suggests that the
Dark lady of the Sonnets was a real Dark Lady, coming from Africa.           
It's a while since I read it, but one of his more interesting speculations
is that the dark lady went back to Africa, with her child by Shakespeare,
and th his descendants are still there (well, I said it was fiction).

Linden

-- 
Linden Salter-Duke		email: SALTER_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU
Northern Territory University
Darwin, Australia		Snail: Box 40146, Casuarina, NT 0811
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)
Subject: Re: slavery
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Distribution: soc.history
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:53:36 GMT

In article <visser.715972035@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:
>In <43448@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:
>
>
>
>+>What I would love to knoe is - was slavery known much before the mass
>+>slave trade in which millions of Africans were enslaved? The book
>+>doesn't cover this yet ( I'm only half-way through).
>
>	Could feudalism be counted as a form of Slavery?  The conditions
>were certainly not comparable to the african slave trade, but feudalism
>did control those working the land to a considerable extent.
>

I think that the crucial defining feature of slavery is the transportation of
people from one place to another.  Transportation guarantees that the 
slave will be dependent upon the master, and makes resistance or escape
much more difficult.

After generations, the control of slaves weakens, and the abusive aspects of
slavery are mitigated.  Systems like serfdom are in some ways like this 
mitigated slavery.  I think that in the American South, slavery on the
east coast was becoming mitigated before the civil war.  This was what
made being sold ``down the river'' to Mississippi or Alabama so frightening.
It was a ripping up of roots once again.  Sharecropping after emancipation,
were once again forms of mitigated slavery, perhaps not too different from
what would have developed ``naturally,'' without transportation.

Note that transportation can come in two forms: war-related and commercial.
There has long been war-related slavery (by the rivers of Babylon . . .).
Commercial slavery requires trading networks capable of moving goods, 
including slaves, in large quantities for long distances.  Both the 
Europeans and the Arabs set up these types of networks for transporting
slaves out of Africa.  War-related slavery could then dovetail with 
commercial slavery.

--Stuart Sechrest


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: ijk@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (ihor.j.kinal)
Subject: Re: Japanese POWs in the USSR during WW2
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:23:01 GMT
Summary: Japanese POWs in Russia after WWII

In article <715294623@amazon.cs.duke.edu>, wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:
> 
> >msirbu@next6.cs.umr.edu (Mihai Sirbu) quoted this in soc.culture.romanian:
> >> RFE/RL Daily Report No. 166, August 31, 1992
> >> The Japanese Kyodo News Service on 29 August said that Russian
> >> President Boris Yeltsin may formally apologize for the Soviet
> >> seizure of 600,000 Japanese World War II prisoners of war when he
> >> visits Japan in mid-September.
> 
> Jack Campin:
> 
> >So what's to apologize for?  Presumably these were the troops captured in
> >Manchuria after eight years of conducting the worst genocide in history?
> >For the Russians to now say *they* were in the wrong is revisionism on a
> >scale that makes Irving look tentative.  Or am I missing something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       I agree with you, Jack.  Russian self-esteem is truly at a
>       low point.  What's next?  An apology to Germany for the
>       "seizure" of Nazi prisoners-of-war?
> 
> 
> -- Eduard Wiener


I recently read [in the NY Times, I believe], that these POWS were
held for many years in slave-labor camps.  This is not considered
'acceptable' practice by international norms [and I assume the
Geneva conventions].  Of course, huge numbers of Soviet citizens
suffered the same fate, or worse ...

Anyway, I would think that an apology might be justified,
right after the Japanese apologize/compensate for their crimes,
such as their kidnapping women to use as prositutes, etc.

[And of course, what the Japanese really want from Russia
are the islands at the end of the Kuriles, taken after WWII].

Standard disclaimers apply.
Ihor Kinal
att!trumpet!ijk