From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom
Subject: Re: Police And Conventions
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:09:26 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Aug19.081230.111730@zeus.calpoly.edu>  
kwang@zeus.calpoly.edu (Kevin Wang aka The Scarecrow) writes:
> Additional con rules that go into effect starting July 24, 1991
> for the Time-Con Convention:

Later in the post Kevin says this, had the following paragraph,
which I move up front just to make commenting on the rules
a bit easier:

> As you can see, the majority of these rules fall under the simple
> category of "safe and sane common sense".  However, items 1, 2, 3,
> 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 12 could be construed in ways that limit  
"normal"
> con activity.  Moreover, the tone of the letter is rather offensive
> and insulting, made worse by the numerous syntactical and semantic
> errors in it.

> 
> 1.     All room parties are to be ended and vacated by all non-
> registered guest by 2:00AM.  Violation of this rule will be subject
> to automatic eviction from guest room and the remaining guest in
> the room will be escorted off property for the rest of the
> convention.

Sounds a tad harsh, unless "room party" means "open, loud room
party."  I have no problem with the hotel saying that a 2am they
want the doors closed and the noise toned down so that their other
guests can sleep.

> 
> 2.     On the first complaint of a party room, the room will be
> evicted and all the occupants will be escorted off property.

Agreed, this is too harsh. However, if you replace first with
second, I don't have too much of a problem with it.
> 
> 3.     At anytime that any guest rooms (Other than suites) have  
more
> than four occupants, the room will be evicted to prevent fire and
> safety violations.  Maximum occupancy in a guest room is four.

I don't think this rule means visitors as in folks dropping
by during parties.  This means that their biggest room is a quad,
and they don't want 10 people crashing there. This is a rule
at all hotels. Yes, fans break this rule once in a while (I did
myself a few times), but I see nothing wrong with the hotel
saying: "If you pay for a quad, 4 people can sleep in the room, not
10."

> 
> 4.     After 2AM, any room found having more occupants in the room
> than it is actually registered to have will be forced to pay for
> the additional guest or be evicted from the hotel.

This seems like an elaboration on number 3.
> 
> 5.     Any persons found sleeping anywhere in the hotel other then  
a
> guest room will be escorted off preperty and not be allowed back 
> for the rest of the Con.

Why is this unreasonable?  I used to get annoyed at Disclaves where
you couldn't even go sit in the lobby in the morning because fans
were sleeping on the couches.  The hotel makes money selling 
sleeping rooms. It is not at all unreasonable for them to say:
"you want to sleep here?  Then buy a room, don't sleep in the halls."

> 
> 6.     No physical contact other then holding hands, a quick hug or
> kiss will be tolerated.  Any further actions will result in the 
> subjects being asked to leave the property for the remaining time
> of the Con.

Sounds like an overreaction.  However, they need to replace it
with a rule that does rule out sex or sexual foreplay in the
halls.   It's a shame they any rule like this, but some folks 
don't have common sense and thus need to be told that screwing
in the halls is bad manners.  But certainly trying to forbid 
hugging is nonsense.

> 
> 7.     All non registered guest in the hotel will be asked to leave
> the property between the hours of 2AM-5AM.
> 
> 8.     A full dress code will go into effect requiring shoes and
> shirts in all public areas except the pool.  All violators will be
> escorted off property for the remaining time of the con.  Costumes
> will be permitted.

All public areas is too much, but I'd have no problem with this
rule applying to restaurants and lobby.

> 
> 9.     No pranfanity gestures will be allowed on any part of the
> clothing.  Violators will be escorted off property for the
> remainder of the Con.

Sounds like they were saying they didn't want the "Fuck you"
t-shirts in their hotel.  Again, this sounds reasonable to
me.  It offends a number of their guests. (But then again,
I've never understood why someone would want to wear something
whose main purpose is to try to offend someone else.)

> 
> 10.    There is to be absolutely nothing sold out of any guest  
room.
> Violators will escorted off property for the remainder of the
> Con.
> 11.    The pool, jacuzzi and weight room are for registered hotel
> guest only.  Violators found using our guest facilities will be
> escorted off property for the rest of the Con.
> 
> 12.    No beer kegs or home stereo systems will be allowed in any
> guest rooms.  This is to assure that a party will not take place
> in the room that might disturb other guest.
> 

Most hotels don't allow alcohol of any sort to be brought to the
rooms.  Most look the other way when what's involved is a few
six packs of beer or a bottle or two.  Kegs seem rather
excessive.  Also, I have a button that says "Boom Boxes Are
Weapons" so I can sympathize with the latter rule, though
think it should just say "stereo systems played loudly (and
we will define what we think is loud) are not permitted."

> 13.    Objects thrown from balconies:    Intentionally dropping,
> throwing or projecting objects from room balconies is automatic
> room eviction and escort off-property with No Refund.
> 
> 14.    Safety violations:  Jumping or hopping from room balconies  
or
> any other serious safety violation will result in removal from
> hotel property and possible room eviction with NO REFUND.
> 
> 15.    Alcohol:   Any minors consuming alcohol will be escorted  
off-
> property.  If minors are observed consuming alcohol in the guest
> rooms, the guest will be evicted from the room and escorted off-
> property with NO REFUND.
> 
> 16.    Vandalism:   Any guest who vandalizes the hotel property or
> other guest property will be held responsible for the damages.
> Outside police may be involved depending on the severity of
> damages.  In all circumstance, the violator will be escorted off
> property.
> 
> When I saw this, my initial reaction, based primarily on rule 6,  
was
> that it had to be a joke.  However, it *was* on Red Lion  
letterhead,
> and I decided that it had to be checked out.

Given that you mentioned that they were reacting to people screwing
in the hallways, I don't know why you were surprised. Granted it's
an overreaction, but most people (hotels included) have a bad
habit of overreacting to try to fix problems.  

> 
> Looking back, I see a couple of important points:
> 
> 1)  The concom for any particular con needs to find out (and  
possibly
> negotiate) the hotel rules and communicate them to the attendees.   
We fen
> need to expend some effort at self-policing -- don't just let Flare
> handle things.
> 
> 2)  If you see something you don't like, react to it, but don't
> *over*react.  Most of the people at Timecon made a point of overtly
> breaking as many of the rules as they could, while still staying  
within
> the boundaries of good taste and common sense.

What the concom needs to do in a case like this is review a letter
like this with the hotel before the hotel gives it out (if they
can).  Then they can ask questions like "Why rule 6?"  and respond
with things like  "We can see what you're getting at, but people
will react poorly to the phrasing. How about _______."  

> 
> For those of you who attended Timecon and still feel somewhat  
outraged,
> I suggest you write a letter to the Red Lion management, and send a
> copy to Conventions of Time (whatever their address is).
> 
> I've deliberately avoided turning this into an emotional report, 
> restricting myself mostly to the facts.  I think it's more  
important
> to look to the future, and see what can be done to prevent similar
> incidents from occurring.
> 

Easy.   If people would, by and large, act with courtesy
and common sense (which means not having sex in the halls,
not blasting boom boxes in public areas or late at night,
not sleeping in the hallways, etc.), the hotels MOST OF THE
TIME will respond with courtesy.  I say "most of the time"
because some hotels are nasty no matter what you do. The only
solution in such cases is to find a better hotel.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom