HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pkokkone@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Pellervo Kokkonen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedofobia in Jarmo Ryyti
Date: 17 Nov 1992 17:46:40 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

	Mr. Ryyti still fails to provide a compelling reason why
	Finnish speaking people should be priviledged over other
	minorities in Sweden. My interpretation is that Mr. Ryyti
	is a Finnish nationalist (very extreme one).

	Regarding the "evidence" he is providing, I think that kind
	of facts would be available about any country in the world.
	How about Finland's record discriminating against the gypsies
	and Saamis. To a degree both Sweden and Finland together in
	their common history and separately have had repressive 
	policies. However genocide does not mean failure to protect
	ethnic or linguistic minorities. Nobody has been physically
	destroyed by government authorities because of ethnic background
	or any other matter. Anyway, you would have to go far back
	in history to find examples, that their relevance for the
	modern situation would be questionable.

	I am sure anyone could point to some insensitivities in 
	Swedish language policies, but that should give a good
	opportunity to discuss these issues NOT to start throwing
	insults on other people. I disagree with Mr. Ryyti that
	Ruotsinsuomalainen or any immigrant publication would be
	a good source for information since their obvious bias.
	Not to say it is wrong for them to communicate their
	perspective. I do not buy a car because the salesman tells
	me it is a good car, neither do I adopt opinions because
	people representing them tell me they are right.

	Finally Mr. Ryyti is talking about peoples in collective
	terms as if they had an existence of their own apart from
	individuals and societal structures governing social
	interaction. I am sure Sweden is not just Sweden but consists
	of individuals who to various degrees are or are not supportive
	of minorities rights. Also there are administrative structures
	which formulate policies, which unlike Mr. Ryyti assumes do
	change over time, and reflect not only concerns for the
	existence of Finnish language but also need to balance between
	competing minority interests. They quite correctly do not see
	any need to single out one group (for instance Tornedal finnar)
	out of minorities in Sweden or even out of Finnish speaking
	people in Sweden.

	Pellervo Kokkonen

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Looking for a relative phone number in Stockholm
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:03:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.052953.18450@cs.tulane.edu> chavarro@cs.tulane.edu (Mauricio Chavarro) writes:

   CAN SOMEONE LOOK AT THE WHITE PAGES PHONE-BOOK IN STOCKHOLM?:

   I need to know  a phone number from a relative  living in Stockholm. His name
   is Joaquin Martinez. I have the following phone number: 0760-17637. Whenever I 
   call, the operator answers me that the number is wrong. He lives in the Marsta 
   area. Calling from USA the dialing would be (468) 0760-17637 [?? Is it true ??].

You have made two mistakes in dialling:

1) 0760 is an area code in itself. You should not put the Stockholm
   area code (0)8 before it when you dial. Actually, 0760 numbers are not
   in Stockholm, but in Marsta or Sigtuna, which are cities in the Stockholm
   region.

2) The 0760 area code has been abandoned and all numbers within that area
   have been changed and put into the 08 area. The number change (in this
   particular case) involves putting 591 in front of the number. I.e. you
   should dial 46 8 591 176 37. The reason for this change is to make all
   phones in the greater Stockholm area have the same area code, avoiding
   the kind of confusion illustrated by point (1) above.

On the other hand, the phone directory does not list any Joaquin
Martinez in the (former) 0760 area. It does list three other
Martinezes (Enrique Pompeyo, Francisco and Irene), none with the
number you have. Of course, the number could be registred on someone
else (wife with different last name?) or be unlisted.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Finnish? (WAS: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa)
Date: 22 Nov 92 15:10:50 GMT
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm

In article <ksand-211192115127@wintermute.apple.com>, ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:
>Aren't there newsfeeds that only covers the Nordic part of the net?
>Then I would agree that Swedish would be the preferred language in
>conversations over this part of the net. Most posters in Nordic
>countries understand Swedish.

There's the nordunet.* hierarchy; but there's practically zero traffic 
in those groups I subscribe to, e.g. nordunet.talk.politics and 
nordunet.talk.skandinaviska. Also, the postings I have seen, have just 
as often been in English as in Swedish/Danish/Norwegian. But in the 
swnet.* hierarchy, we discuss in Swedish. And at least the swnet.politik 
group is rather active - often a two-digit number of postings/replies 
per day.

Tomas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

"These latter-day practitioners of surface chemistry reflect a lingering of the
adventurous spirit of the Enlightment" -- Charles Tanford
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Morbus ryyti
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:55:17 GMT

I'm sure you all realize that the vast majority of Finns and Finlandswedes 
live and work together in (more or less) harmony.  But as recent threads on 
this wire have amply demonstrated, there are some whose attitudes toward the 
other group are, shall we say, unhealthy.  Let's (for obvious reasons) 
label this phenomenon 'morbus ryyti'.

Morbus ryyti comes in two varieties, as exemplified by the following case 
studies:

1.  The sycophant (m. ryyti syc.):  At an Independence Day (6 Dec) 
reception in the home of a haut bourgois finlandswedish family in 
Helsingfors, I met a female Finn who, in Swedish, gushed that "det {r s} 
fint att vara svensk" (= it is so "fint" to be Swedish; "fint folk" refers 
to a "better" kind of people; there's no good English word that would 
capture all the nuances here).  She also turned out to be a racist.

2.  The victim (m. ryyti vic.):  At a dance at K}ren in ]bo, a friend and I 
were walking down a hallway when we met a drunk being escorted out by two 
orderlies.  The drunk tore himself loose and hit my friend in the face.  
Upon being restrained, the drunk complained (in Finnish-accented Swedish)
 that he was being oppressed because he had a Finnish name.  It should be 
pointed out that he had not introduced himself to anyone, so we didn't know 
his name.  Furthermore, my friend who was hit, was named Lehtinen (a 
Finnish name if there ever was one!).

Our friend Jarmo, it would seem, falls into the second category, the 
professional victim.  Both varieties seem to be based on deep-seated 
feelings of inferiority visavis Swedes.

There is, to be sure, analogous unhealthiness on the other side.  You know, 
the people who sing Modersma}lets s}ng and eat finlandskorv (morbus 
runeberg?)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:6746 alt.sources.wanted:1777 alt.swedish.chef.bork.bork.bork:16
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,alt.sources.wanted,alt.swedish.chef.bork.bork.bork
Subject: Re: English text to Swedish accented English text program wanted
Date: 16 Nov 92 04:34:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.16Nov92003442
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

mortenk@dhhalden.no (MORTEN KNUDSEN) writes:
>In article <26446@optima.cs.arizona.edu> dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov13.161553.21202@eng.ufl.edu> ruck@zeta.ee.ufl.edu (John 
>R Ruckstuhl Jr) writes:>>I've got an immediate need for a program which I 
>believe I've seen >>posted to Usenet:
>>>It takes English text and transforms it to a English text with a Swedish
>>>accent.
>>
>>Here's a couple of lex sources I grabbed off of alt.sources last summer.
>>They both work after a fashion, but some clever-but-underworked programmer
>>could surely combine the two and come up with something superior to both...
>>
>>
>
>I get a 'Unknown symbol: _yywrap' when compiling with 'cc -ll -o'. Anybody 
>know why?

Yes:
       1) You didn't read the lex manual.
       2) You didn't define it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: The Finns of Sweden
Reply-To: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:14:14 GMT

ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:

>> Was this the Final Solution to the Finnish Problem?  How did they do it?  
>> With traps baited with Koskenkorva?  Poisoned puukkos, so that when it came 
>> to "inte sk{ra, bara rispa" they poisoned eachother?  I can't wait for the 
>> details....
>
>...maybe they wanted to become Swedes :-).

Just like the Swedish-speakers in Ostrobothnia. Some of them are more
Swedish than Swedes themselves. They are definitely very sensitive about
their language and they are more interested in what is happening on
the other side of the gulf than what's going on in Finland.

One version of the "final solution" to the Finnish problem was explained in 
Jarmo's posting.

Janne Kivel{

      "N{m{kin pusakat vain viisysiysi. Ja kaikista valtakunnan..."
                     ----- Simo vaatehuoneelta
From: walver@kielo.uta.fi (Ville V. Walveranta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Pakkoruotsi Suomen kouluissa
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:22:14 GMT
	<WALVER.92Nov14044952@kielo.uta.fi>
	<ksand-141192163235@wintermute.apple.com>
Reply-To: walver@uta.fi (Ville Walveranta)
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: University of Tampere, Finland
In-reply-to: ksand@apple.com's message of 15 Nov 92 00:33:35 GMT

ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes in soc.culture.nordic

> Are you sure, as some of us know Finnish companies bought a great many
> Swedish ones in the eighties, and the other way around. For a while
> there was a screaming need for people that spoke Finnish and Swedish for
> marketing, sales and engineering jobs concerning these companies. And
> those who could show that they spoke both languages got pretty good jobs
> and advanced in their careers.

        Maybe you're right. It's just that I've known for such a long
        time that that is _not_ what I'll be doing [working for a
        Swedish-Finnish or Finnish-Swedish company for marketing or
        technical department]. I knew it already when I was at school so
        that's why I found studying Swedish in particular pointless.

> It seems (speaking with friends in Finland) that Finland relies on EC
> as a form of a backdoor out from their current economical misery. I
> would state that start by building strong Nordic companies (style ASEA)
> before trying to conquer the whole European market.

        Well, let's hope it'll work! :-)

        -- Willy
--

 ***********************************************************************
  ***   Ville V. Walveranta      Tel/Fax.....: (510) 420-0729       ***
   ***  96 Linda Ave., Apt. #5   From Finland: 990-1-510-420-0729  ***
    *** Oakland, CA  94611, USA  (FAXes automatically recognized) ***
   ***  GET MY PGP KEY FROM MY PLAN -> Email.: walver@kielo.uta.fi ***  
  ***        "Reality is subject to change without notice"          ***
 ***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Subject: Re: The Finns of Sweden
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:22:46 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic

In article <1992Nov17.151437.13857@ericsson.se>, etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se
(Staffan Axelsson) wrote:
> In article <1992Nov6.100218.22213@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
> >
> >the Forest-Finns of Warmland whose genocide was complited 1960's
> >by the Swedish administration.
> >
> 
>  Excuse me, but if any genocide was completed, I wouldn't be alive today.
>  You see, I happen to hail from V{rmland and my (Finnish) ancestors lived 
>  in Finnskogen in Northern V{rmland. I also have relatives (although far away)
>  that are living in Finnskogen now whose ancestors also were Finnish.
>  Or would you claim that I have dreamt all this? :-)
> 
>  I find this assertion about a genocide and the comparison to the Nazis
>  very offending.

Staffan, you seem to be a far more reliable source than Jarmo. Could
you explain what actually happened with the Finnish population in
V{rmland. My guess is that it was just assimilated into the Swedish
culture, slowly but steadily, but I would like to hear the real story.

The funny thing, this happens in my own small village in Finland, more and 
more Finns have moved to this originally Swedish speaking settlement,
and mixed marriages cause the village to slowly become Finnish. But
I don't call it genocide, exactly :-).

Cheers,
Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: The krona floats...
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:54:54 GMT


...without visible means of support! As some of you will remember,
there was a great brouhaha here a couple of months ago, with the head
of the national bank sticking out a steely jaw and declaring that he
would rather see Sweden reduced to ashes and rubble than depart from
the fixed rate of exchange, and the government and the opposition
yodeling in perfect harmony about the necessity of introducing extreme
measures so as to keep the specter of a floating krona at bay. Well,
yesterday all this collapsed, and there is a blight upon the land, or
so some politicians would have us believe. My point of view is a
simple one: now we won't have to put up with another round of
interminable blathering about rates of interest and crises and
emergency meetings and that kind of thing, which is all to the good.
From: zaphod@diku.dk (Ole D. M. Lennert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Some history about AAland
Date: 20 Nov 92 15:11:29 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:

>osstlm@eua.ericsson.se writes:
>>In article 19669@cs.hut.fi, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:

>>> If I remember right it's very difficult to become a permanent resident
>>> in the Channel Islands as well. I don't think the status of Aaland is
>>
>>The Channel Islands are *not* members of the EEC !

>Channel Islands are part of UK, but I don't know exactly what their
>status in respect of the EC is. If Finland became a member of the EC, Aaland 
>could very well have similar position as Channel Islands.

>>/Tomas

>Janne Kivela"

[Various .signatures deleted]

Greenland is a part of the Danish Kingdom, with home rule. Greenland
is *not* a member of the EC. 

Ole Lennert
E-mail: zaphod@diku.dk (school)
        lennert@dina.kvl.dk (work)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: The Finns of Sweden
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:47:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.070019.256@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>: 
>:  1. Do you still claim it was a complete genocide (=folkmord) of the
>:     Finns in northern V{rmland? Did the Swedish government kill every
>:     single Finn that lived in Finnskogen?
>
>If we consider the treatment of red-indians in USA or in Amazonas
>as genocide the answer is yes, the genocide does not mean only concrete
>killing but destroying one's culture and language. Some may think
>the red-indians of America were not genocided or how you call it
>but they just did not manage to survive. For me genocide
>means destrying one's  culture &language. So my answer is YES.
>It was a genocide.

This is the entry in the Oxford English Dictionary for genocide.
I think it speaks for itself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
genocide

 . [f. Gr. ge&acu.no-j (see genus) + -cide 2.]
The deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group. 

1944 R. Lemkin Axis Rule in Occupied Europe ix. 79 By `genocide' we mean the 
     destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group. 
1945 Sunday Times 21 Oct. 7 The United Nations' indictment of the 24 Nazi 
     leaders has brought a new word into the language-genocide.  It occurs
     in Count 3, where it is stated that all the defendants `conducted
     deliberate and systematic genocide-namely, the extermination of racial
     and national groups...' 
1951 Amer. Jrnl. Psychiatry Feb. 595/1 Genocide as defined by the United
     Nations is the direct physical destruction of another racial or
     national group. 
1962 Listener 20 Sept. 452/2 One of the things the seventeenth century
     never achieved was genocide. 
1969 Peace News 13 June 4/1 The government are..conducting cultural genocide
     by destroying this Scottish (Gaidhlig) community.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Otherwise no comment.

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson)
Subject: Re: Alcoholism in Scandinavia
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 19:51:10 GMT

According to Norse Heathen tradition, ale and mead are holy sacraments.
Over the years their use has been greatly secularized. Christianity's
repressive doctrines have actually contributed to this abuse.

As O'dhinn says in Ha'vama'l 12:

Era sva' gott,   sem gott kvedha,
        o"l alda sonom;
thi'at faera veit,   er fleira drekkr,
      sins til gedhs gumi.

Ale is not so good as they say 
    for the sons of men.
The mind of a man knows less
    the more he drinks.

=-= Thorfinn Einarsson =-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-= O'dhinn er alfadhir! =-=
"En stundum vakti hann upp daudha menn o'r io"rdhu edha settisk undir hanga;
fyrir thvi' var hann kalladhr draugadro'ttinn edha hangadro'ttinn."
=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ynglinga saga ch. 7 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=
From: bjorn@ludd.luth.se (Bjorn Fahller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: The Finns of Sweden
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:44:22 GMT
Organization: Lule} Tekniska H|gskolas Datorf|rening - Ludd

In <1992Nov20.054933.14217@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>You also may explain why forest-burning was banned in W{rmland on Finnish
>areas and what followed when the Finns did not obey. You may know if
>you are an expert on the issue.

I guess you're trying to say that the forrest-burning was banned because it
was the finns who burned the forrests, not because forrest-burning itself
isn't a very clever idea? What happened when they didn't obey? To be
perfectly honest, I don't know, but a fair guess is that breaking a law
leads to some kind of punishment. I also guess it did then. I also guess
any Swede burning forrests would've received the same kind of punishment.
I'm prefectly confident it wasn't being a finn that was banned through
a law about forrest burning. It was much simpler. It was actually forrest
burning that was banned.

   _
/Bjorn.
-- 
Bjorn Fahller     Phone:              |The opinions above are not necessarily
Trollnasvagen 3A  Intl:+46 920 226870 |those of... Hey! Wait a minute. Do you
S-951 61 Lulea    Natl:0920-22 68 70  |seriously expect Me, a student, to carry
Sweden            << space for rent >>|the official voice of the University?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se (Staffan Axelsson)
Subject: Re: Keskustelua suomalaisten asemasta Ruotsissa
Organization: Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:07:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.103930.7204@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>Tor Lillqvist (tml@tik.vtt.fi) wrote:
>: 
>: Of course this is not the case. I am also quite sure that if you ask
>: immigrants in Finland and Sweden (whose mother tongue is not Swedish
>: or Finnish) to compare which country provides better education in the
>: immigrant children's mother tongue, the answer is Sweden. After all,
>: Sweden has so many more immigrants for such a long time that this
>: matter has had to been taken care of (the "home language" education).
>
>So you compare Sweden with the Third World countries and Sweden is better.
>Very interesting.

 Aww, Jarmo, you're saying Finland is a third world country!? 
 Naah, really?? Your Finland, that is so superior to evil Sweden in every
 way, is a third world country!!?? :-) :-)

 [ Re-read Tor's statement and you'll find that he was comparing Sweden's
   and *Finland's* educational systems. ]

>Why there are so many so called
>halvspr}kiga in Sweden? A result of the education policy. It is proved
>in many ways that the policy Sweden has towards the immigtants in
>education  harmful because it produces halvspr}kiga people. 

 Well, I'm sure this problem can never occur in Finland since you don't 
 accept any immigrants. 1/2 :-)

>Speaking about the educational system of Sweden , one can argue if Sweden
>has a good system, I do not think so.
>
 Big surprise, eh! :-)

>But you know I compare with Finland, with whom Tor Lillquist compares,
>he compares Swedish educational system with the Third World.
>Terveisi{,
>Jarmo Ryyti
>

 Staffan
--
 ((\\  //| Staffan Axelsson            
  \\  //|| etxonss@ufsa.ericsson.se    
\\_))//-|| contact for Swedish hockey  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang)
Subject: Re: Denmark to the Arctic Sea! (was Re: The Finns,...)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology, Trondheim, Norway
	<1992Nov13.120043.13615@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
	<1992Nov13.162743.16038@odin.diku.dk>
Date: 16 Nov 92 10:15:36

>>>>> karl@diku.dk (Karl-Christian Hansen) writes:

> Now we're at the historical rights of our beloved country, we
> shouldn't forget the Danelaw. (Brits might disagree!)

> Denmark from the Nordkap to the Seine, and from Tallinn to London!
                   ^^^^^^^
You can't even spell the name. How do you expect to rule it...?

Dans kant spel, neiter kan svids!

- Steinar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf)
Subject: Re: A question to Norway about Shetland Is.
Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic
Organization: /home/ludviga/cindy/.organization
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:28:06

Well, i'm not a (real) Norwegian, but my opinion on the matter is
basically.... "That kind of trouble we don't need."  8-)

(We get along with the UK, why rock the boat over this issue?)

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic