From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Living in a State of
Organisation: GOiDS "R We, Inc.
X-To: MUFFY BARKOCY
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:34:00 GMT

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes...
>In article <BzM49A.5yx@world.std.com> aep@world.std.com (Andrew E Page) writes:
>>In article <1gth7bINNcfi@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Pe
>i) writes:
>>>dgross@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>>>>     "We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision in infancy
>>>So this gives you the right to do violence unto others???
>>100%, completely off of the MARK!!

>>The issue is not the right to comit violence at all!>The issue is that
>>men are also the victims of violence.

>No, the issue is that every time someone talks about the violence that
>is practiced against women, some people here start shouting about the
>violence that happens to men.  Not only do they not seem to want us to
>work on the problem *we* are concerned about, but they further want us
>to work on *their* problems.

I still don't know why you presume to tell those of us who *do* "shout
about the violence which happens to men" what *our* motives are.  And BTW,
your wording certainly seems quite irreverent ; I doubt that you speak of
women "shouting about violence which happens to women" as though to imply
that they were whining to some degree, as I read from what you said.  At
any rate, I have said many times that I have no wish to force you or anyone
to stop working on this particular women's issue in favour of working on
violence towards men.


>No one has *denied* that men have
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>problems, those are simply not necessarily the problems that many
 ^^^^^^^^^
>feminists are concerned about.

You'd be surprised.  You ought to see the television show _Shirley_, where
a women's shelter volunteer, Shirley Morton (no coincidence <-: ), called
husband abuse "a white elephant," and Martin Dufresne, whom I especially
noted for his declaration that the Men's Movement is "male supremacists,"
commented that any men's shelter, if built, would consist of gold bathrooms
and all the trappings of male privilege...   (Oh, give it a rest, Martin...)

Indeed, especially in light of all this abuse, can you blame us for being
so defensive?  You may *think* that we are attempting to superimpose our
issues upon you, but this is not anyone's intention, least of all mine.


>It is apparently more interesting to
>advocates for men to attack anyone working on women's problems than to
>*do* anything about the problems they are supposedly so concerned about.

This is possibly the most offensive thing that I have *ever* seen you
write about the Men's Movement, and frankly, I thought that you'd be
above making insulting remarks such as these.  Indeed, how would *you*
feel if I were to declare that the Women's Movement was more interested
in attacking the Men's Movement than in solving women's problems?

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

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