HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: contradictions ( was Re: Alt.Atheism Frequently Asked Questions
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 11:46:10 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

skinner@sp14.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) writes:
> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> >So, what does that make you when you advocate the Bible without being able t
> >answer a similar question?
> 
> Before I can answer this, I must know what you mean by "when you
> advocate the Bible."

Presumably you do advocate the teachings of the Bible, and suggest that it
represents God's word?

> >Right, but given that position I want to know what the conflicting wants are
> >and why they conflict.  Otherwise it's just vague guesswork.
> 
> Even vague guesswork is enough refute the assertion "surely God
> wanting an accurate Bible and our not having one says something about
> God's omnipotence."

Indeed it is.  Is this relevant?

> I am not one who can satisfy your want.

Fair enough.


mathew
-- 
"Even the most bizarre of the unions (probably that between a cat's gall
 stone and a single note 'G' from CNN's ident theme) managed to convey a
 sense of rampant impropriety."  -- 'Fortran Five', Simon G. Lawrence Leonard

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
Subject: Re: 02/alt.atheism fre <cont>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:49:43 GMT

Sorry to 'jump in' on a thread like this, but this really gets my
goat:

In article <1992Jul23.035909.15984@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>I suspect it will turn out that Einstein was largely correct. Quantum
>mechanics is seriously flawed. Unfortunitly most quantum people brush off
>the problems with a theory of the universe where each particle requires
>absurd amounts of computing power. I see no reason to believe that
>the universe contains some monstrously huge hidden computer, by monstrously
>huge I mean each particle requires trillions of trillions of ... more
>computing power than that available "inside" the universe.

As one of those 'quantum people', I have to say that this paragraph
makes no sense to me whatsoever. Computing power? What? I know that a
lot of people have philosophical objections to the mathematical
formalism of quantum and high-energy physics, and some of those
objections (e.g. those of Roger Penrose) are quite well-formulated.

On the other hand, your objections sound like voodoo.

>I expect to see a theory that makes the same predictions as quantum 
>mechanics, but does so with only the computing power available to the
>system in question, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if its deterministic
>(but maybe so chaotic that determinism is meaningless).

What's really relevant here is that QM describes behaviour which is
totally alien to the normal human experience. Does a human doing sit
ups find him/herself restricted to n positions? Do billard balls
collide and turn into different billiard balls? No. But subatomic
particles are subject to this very strange behaviour, and very few
people are willing to accept (at least outside of the knowledgeable
science community) that things on the order of 10^-10 meters in size
actually behave differently than things in the macroscopic world. I
can't figure out why; the physical evidence is abundant.

>>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
>Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
>in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
>       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
-- 
# Rick Russell    | TAMU Meteorology   | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Internet) #
# "If you can't have fun with a dozen inflated rubber hands,                #
# then you're not trying."  - Carla LeBec                                   #
From: mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Existence of a god.
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:38:06 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <39654@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> ss@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Scott Stuart) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.162708.3126@ducvax.auburn.edu> rezkmah@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>
>>intervening at that point.I can see the extremely high order and organization
>>from the atomic level to that of the galaxy as pure and clearcut evidence for
>>the existance of a creator.  They certainly do not suggest habhazardness, or
>>do they ?!
>
>There is not really a great deal of complexity on most levels.
[...stuff deleted about atoms, etc...]
>The real complexity comes into
>play in living organisms.  It is certainly too much complexity to be
>explained by randomness, or haphazardness.  It is not, however, to much
>complexity to be accounted for by natural selection working for something
>like 3 billion years.

Following multiple suggestions on this group to read _The Blind Watchmaker_
by Richard Dawkins, I came away suitable impressed by the way he backed
up his thesis which is that there is no need to invent a "creator" to
explain life as we know it. I would highly recommend to the original poster
that he read it also.

Mathew, perhaps you could add a pointer to this book to #19 of your FAQ?

-- 
Michael Wang
mmwang@adobe.com
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim E. Guncer )
Subject: Re: Solar Worship
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:25:38 GMT

In article <n05d6t@ofa123.fidonet.org>, David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
> Tag1: USMAN QAZI (qazi@nevada.edu (USMAN QAZI))
>  
> >> (Ridha Souissi)
> >> In the 7th Heaven, a number of Angels are
> >> continously circulating around the Throne of God,
> >> and this act of going around the Kaaba...
>  
> UQ> "What for? And what happens on the eighth heaven?"
>  
> Seventh heaven: refers to this plane of existance,
> as there were seven known planets / luminaries. The
> quote above describes the planets circlating the Sun.
> It is the same "reason" why there are five times for
> prayers; it is based upon the apparent motion of the
> five visible planets around the Sun; the sun is the
> symbol for what musslems call God. Ra, Ya, Yah, Allah,
> are all sun Gods.
> 
> --- Maximus 2.00

This is interesting. 

I recall reading a similar reason for "fasting" (during Ramadan). During 
daylight you are not allowed to eat,drink or engage in any pleasureful
activity. Once the sun sets you break your fast.  "Ra" shouldn't
see us enjoying ourselves :-). 

Selim Guncer

--
Selim E. Guncer               | Jaca negra, luna grande,
CSSER-ASU                     | y aceitunas en mi alforja.
(602)-965-4096                | Aunque sepa los caminos
guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu     | yo nunca llegare a Cordoba.. (FGL)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: Praying to Mecca?... and Evangelists
Reply-To: bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:11:57 GMT

> This has nothing to do with Isla, rather this is a limitation of English.
> Sometimes I find myself irritated with this thing.
> Can anybody give me a pronoun which addreses both men and women alike.
>
>
> Zafar Kazmi 

How about "it".  The best part is, "it" offends everyone:-)

Brian /-|-\
=====================================
It is not an opinion: it is faith; therefore, it is fact.
It follows logically that you must now do everything I say.
Send money.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Subject: Re: Free Will and responsibility
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 16:25:03 GMT


	It's interesting....



	If I do it right, it's god's will


	If I fuck up.....

	It's my sinfull nature




	Hmmmmmmmm...


	
-- 
"Speak to me in many voices, make them all sound like one.
 Let me see your sacred mysteries, reveal to me the unknown tounge."--B.O.C.
A. Trent Phillips     |personal E-mail:bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu
alias: White Rook     |   NWROC E-mail:aphillip@heartland.bradley.edu
From: young@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (young.u.huh)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Atheists--born or made?
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:37:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Atheists are both born and made in the following sense:

Everybody was born as an atheist or a non-theist.  (In other words,
nobody was born "pre-programmed" with theistic beliefs.)  Many are 
introduced to the concept of God in one form or another and become 
theists.  Some of the theists later become atheists once again 
from their own choosing.  

How about that -- "Born Again" Atheists?  :-)

Young Huh
yhuh@ihlpe.att.com
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: lighten up, people
Keywords: faith 
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 09:55:48 GMT

(Mr. Mensa ) writes:
>	5) finally, LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!! Geez. I mean, as if. People, people
>	people.....there is one and only one way to prove the existence of
>	God......

Interesting - is there any way to disprove the existence of God?

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
From: nht@cs.bham.ac.uk (Neville H. Thomas)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Praying to Mecca?
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:27:29 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, University of Birmingham, UK


Also Genies.
There are 22 references to them in Al-Quran.
-- 
Email: N.H.Thomas@cs.bham.ac.uk   Fax: +44 21 414 4281     Tel: +44 21 414 3736
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: Free will -answer to your questions jarek.
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:36:36 GMT

Tony:
>>What you are after is a way to allow God be able to know all future free
>>actions (thus not limiting his omnipotence) yet retaining human free will.
Jarek:
>Right.

This sounds to me like reverse engineering a specification for God.
ie: well we have to solve logical problems X, Y, and Z with respect
to God, so we better have a God with attributes A, B, and C ...

graham

--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Sneezing
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:10:08 BST
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi) writes:
> In article <o189NB3w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
> >souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi) writes:
> >> No doubt about it.  Wanna bet? even an insect is much more complex
> >> than a jumbo jet.  Man is able to construct an airplane, bute
> >> he cannot create a bird. He would fail miserably to do so.
> >
> >We can't create an everlasting $10 bill, but we can create a Cray XMP
> >supercomputer.  That doesn't mean a $10 bill is more complex than a Cray XMP
> 
> Is the supercomputer everlasting?  probably 10 or 20 years from now
> the Cray XMP design will be outdated and you will make fun of it.
> But a bird or an insect are wonderful creatures that continue
> to amaze man and continue to be studied by him.

I'm certainly amazed that birds still haven't learnt about windows.  Nor have
insects, but then their brains are much smaller.  Aircraft seem to do a
better job of not flying into solid objects, even when on autopilot.  Then
again, they tend to be further away from the ground.

Has this thread got silly enough yet?


mathew
-- 
Civilization is just a temporary failure of entropy.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: slick@netcom.com (Martin Veneroso)
Subject: Re: DOES ANYONE KNOW...?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 21:51:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

aa758@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jordan Fields) writes:

>I'm looking for any information on how one can become an
>officially recognized (that is, by the state--in my case, Ohio)
>minister of one of those non-denominational churches that only
>seem to require $3 and a stamp. Thanks.

-----        From Universal Life Church materials:

  There are many ways for one to become a minister.  The Universal
Life Church is interested in only one way.  We believe exactly what
the Bible says about becoming a minister.  In the 15th chapter of
St. John, Verse 16, it says:

    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained
    you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your
    fruit should remain;  that whatsoever ye shall ask of the
    Father in my name, he may give it to you."

  We do not question the scripture.  If anyone requests a Minister's
Credential, from ULC, we will ordain him, for life, without any
questions, and without any price.  We do not have degrees of 
ordination, anyone who is ordained by the ULC has the same rights
and privileges as any other minister, ordained in the Universal
Life Church.

-----        End of quoted material

  While the ULC is a very heterogeneous group, many parts of which
assign no special authority to the Christian Bible, the founder
Kirby Hensley is basically Christian and thus the appeal to
biblical authority above.

  The address to which to write to request ordination as explained
above is:
            Universal Life Church
            601 Third Street
            Modesto, CA  95351

  I have been an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church
since 1980 (that is when Carter re-instituted draft registration,
right? :-), and have been an atheist almost as long and have never
felt any conflict between those two facts.

  By the way, check with the clerk of the probate court in your
county as regards registration of credentials to perform marriages
in Ohio, if that is what you have in mind.

                       Yours in ... well, whatever
                       (Rev.) Martin Veneroso
-- 
Martin Veneroso
slick@netcom.com
Jung'f vg gb ln?
jneybeqf fhpx fjbeqf
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: ury@humus.cs.huji.ac.il (My Friend Of Misery)
Subject: Re: Existence of a god.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 07:44:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.175947.21159@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com>, timpson@nntpd2.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Jul20.135600.19367@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, ury@humus.cs.huji.ac.il (My Friend Of Misery) writes...
|> >Why is it so difficult for ppl to understand that There is no god?
|> > 
|> > 
|> >-- 
|> >Ury Segal          | "I'm God, and so is my wife"
|> >ury@cs.huji.ac.il  | I swear I'm gonna live forever. Tell my maker It can wait.
|> >Phone: 02-971187   | DISCLAIMER: I Don't spell and I don't care
|> 
|> 
|>         Why is it so difficult for you to understand thaty There is a god?
|> 
Because I don't have any proof. Now, can YOU answer MY question or you still want
to keep waisting everybody's time?
|> 
|>         Steve With_his_devils_advocate_hat_on        
|> 

-- 
Ury Segal          | The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the 
ury@cs.huji.ac.il  | University or IBM, Digital, Apple, HP or anyone else.
Phone: 02-971187   | They are mine, LO MIN HAHEFKER, as Bialik once said.
From: frazier@maxwell (Greg Frazier)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Oh no, not again
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:38:36 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

atdhb@acad2.alaska.edu writes:
:     Now, I believe that I can walk out my office door right now and freely
:     choose to turn either left or right.  God knows already, say, that I
:     will turn left.  Under what circumstances can I exercise my free will
:     and turn right?

I don't by this one at all.  Just because God knows which
way you'll choose doesn't mean that you didn't fundamentally
make the choice.  Yes, God knows right now what you will
choose 10 minutes from now, but you still don't make the
decision until 10 minutes from now, and when you do, it will
be completely of your own volition.  Remember, the cat isn't
dead 'til you open the box.

--


Greg Frazier	frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU	!{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Bob Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Judgement
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:51:25 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <graham.711862376@galois> graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews) writes:
>PS: can anyone tell me how to put Khan into my kill file (I
>don't have one at present but ... )
>--


  What? Knan getting into your kill file before Jarek?  C'mon,
  Graham, you're slipping!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"If I have to resurrect you, then I'll resurrect you, whether you
like it or not!"
     Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_

"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
learn, eventually."

  --Robert Heinlein
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: etheridg@duncan.cs.utk.edu (Jennifer Etheridge)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Woman Hating Women
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:21:12 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - Department of Computer Science
Distribution: world
Reply-To: etheridg@duncan.cs.utk.edu (Jennifer Etheridge)
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu

In article <1992Jul31.180502.805@dsg.cs.tcd.ie>, ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:
|> In <n062ft@ofa123.fidonet.org> David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
|> 
|> >Tag: Bev Beasly (unknown address)
|> > 
|> >BB> "And where do you get off using that tone?"
|> 
|> I remeber reading this thread of talk about two weeks ago, I found it 
|> completely irrational, and unfair.
|> 
|> There was one women BB, and about five men. These five men are all
|> against the only woman in the discussion. 
|> The problem is that, all these men are talking on behalf of women, while
|> at the same time going against the only woman in the discussion.
|> 
|> Who appointed you to speak for the women, or is this the freedom you are
|> seeking for the women.
|> 
Just for the record, as a woman, I felt that the people (who cares if they
were all men?) saying that when a man rapes a woman it is completely and
absolutely the man's fault were speaking for me. I am totally shocked that
any woman would consider it her responsability to keep men from wanting to
rape her. No matter what I wear or do, if I say no that means no. If the
man forces me to have sex with him anyway it is absolutely his fault.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Equality of human beings (was Re: Poll)
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:52:39 GMT

This post is only a request for clarification.  No refutation is
intended.

stoesser@i31s21.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:

>What can I say?  I'm sure most psychologists would agree that telling children
>nasty punishment-stories (flood, paradise, hell, etc.) _will_ influence them.

>But I must admit that, maybe, all the witch-burners were atheist, camouflaging
>as theists. Most Popes were atheists, of course (why else should Innocence III
>have ordered death penalty for laymen reading the Bible?). 

>The conflict in India on the building of a temple, where on Sunday 35 persons
>were hurt in Trivandrum, 40 in Maharashtra, one person was killed -- well,
>atheists of course, pretending to be Moslems and Hindus.

>Same holds for Shiites and Sunnites in Afghanistan, two brands of Christians 
>(pardon, atheist who say that they are Christians) in former Yugoslavia and
>Northern Ireland. 

>Yes, of course, if I murdered someone and the police caught me, it would be easy
>to say, "God told me so."  But if I had a temporal lobe syndrome and I really
>believed that a god told me so, it would be easy for theist to say, "he's just
>pretending."

>Let's try it this way:  My five-year-old cousin acts like a Ninja[sp?]. Of
>course this has nothing to do with the animations he's seen in TV. 

Does this relate somehow to your claim that started this thread?
Specifically, your claim was,

>The majority of religious people
>stand against equality of human beings and are part of the problem.

Do you still claim this?

If so, are you now willing to offer support for it?
--
Gregg Skinner  g-skinner@uiuc.edu   I do not speak for any organization.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,sci.skeptic
From: skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner)
Subject: Re: contradictions ( was Re: Alt.Atheism Frequently Asked Questions
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Reply-To: g-skinner@uiuc.edu
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 17:56:02 GMT

mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Gregg Skinner) writes:
>> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>> >Ah, so now you're saying that God has to do things which he doesn't want to
>> >do -- that, given that we are to have free will, he has to allow the book to
>> >be transcribed inaccurately even if he doesn't want to.

[Rest deleted.]

I need to back up to this point.  I'm not saying that God has to do
things he doesn't want to do.  I'm saying that God cannot fulfill
conflicting wants.  To allow the book to be transcribed inaccurately
is not doing anything.

You might say that this means God wanted the book to be transcribed
inaccurately.  In my opinion this does not say the same thing.
--
Gregg Skinner  g-skinner@uiuc.edu   I do not speak for any organization.
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:14669 soc.culture.pakistan:12928 soc.culture.arabic:2954
From: stoesser@i31s21.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Words Feminists find Demeaning!
Date: 31 Jul 1992 11:53:23 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, FRG
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: i31s21.ira.uka.de

Yesterday in the news: Several hundred women have been publicly whipped 
in five Iranian cities for not wearing proper clothing.

To protect them from being raped, I guess?

By the way, what is the correct dress for being whipped? 
 							        Achim
_____________________________________________________________________

I'm an anarchist, atheist, pacifist, and vegetarian.  This does _not_
mean that I'd bomb kings, worship Satan, let soldiers bleed to death,
or eat fish.
From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Existence of a god.
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:59:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England

In article <exukjb.17.712264926@exu.ericsson.se> exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
>
> I would like to suggest that there is an argument, one very interesting 
> argument in particular, which might be called the The Argument From the 
> World's Intelligibility, that may be able to prove God's existence to any 
> reasonable person [...]
>
> If anyone's interested in this seeing this argument laid out, let me know. 

How about posting it, Ken?

> Kenneth Bell                                    Welcome to Mind Wars

Cheers

Simon
-- 
Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.            or 0203 etc. if you're in the sunny UK