From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Stereotyping
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:31:35 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <11790@optilink.UUCP>, manley@optilink.UUCP (Dave Manley) writes:
> In article <11785@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >In article <193241@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
> >> In article <11727@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >> > In article <193135@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>, pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
# ## # "They insist that they don't support molestation, and yet a large
# ## # fraction of the group will engage in semantic games to show that 
# ## # adults having sex with kids as young as eight isn't 'molestation' 
# ## # but 'love.'
# 
# ## Interestingly, in all of the public debates I've seen with you, *you* are
# ## the one who keeps tossing ages like "eight" and "three" around.  The others,
# ## including Jeff Dauber, talk about adolescents who have gone through puberty.
# ## You, of course, refuse to even discuss the issue in any rational manner,
# ## resorting instead to the "child molesters" straw man.
# 
# #Here's a statement from Ry Schwark:
# 
# #$ What do you think?  I mean you couldn't possible survive the guilt unless
# #$ everybody said it was ok, could you?  I mean I fornicated with my 
# #$ upstairs neighbor at 8, so like I *know* people can't possibly do it
# #$ when people have awful ideas about it.  I mean look at me, I'm a quivering
# #$ blob of EVIL SEX-GUILT! stop me before I sin again!
# #$ 
# #$ 
# #$ Ry Schwark
# 
# I read this to say that Ry Schwark had sex with his upstairs neighbor
# when he (Schwark) was 8.  It doesn't say how old the neighbor was.
# Was the neighbor an adult, a teen or another 8 year old?  Is Ry
# Schwark male or female? Was the neighbor male or female?  Was this a
# hetero- or homo- sexual act? You have know way of knowing.  This post
# says nothing definitive about child molestation by adults. 
# 
# I give you 0 points for this post.

It was in the middle of a discussion of child molestation.  Ry Schwark
is a male homosexual.

# #Here's a posting that ought to convey what they are after pretty
# #well:
# 
# #$ In <62364@cup.portal.com# Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank - Swilling) writes:
# #$ 
# #$ #Don't bother posting any notices to anyone from NAMBLA today.
# #$ #They've all gone out to see that new movie, "Honey, I Blew the Kid".
# #$ 
# #$ Now that's a mouthful.  :-)
# #$ 
# #$ Yours in Liberation,
# 
# #$ Roy Radow		roy@panix.com         ...rutgers!cmcl2!panix!roy
# 
# This is an child molestation/incest joke in tremendously bad taste.  
# Bad jokes are made about all subjects practically all the time.  The
# joke does not necessarily imply the joke teller believes or supports
# the underlying subject of the joke.  
# 
# While this is not a direct hit I agree the subject is disturbing
# and give you half a point.

You seem to have cut out Mr. Radow's organization line -- the 
North American Man-Boy Love Association.  Or maybe they just mean
something Platonic. :-)

# #And of course, memorable postings from Jeff Dauber about how 12
# #year olds should be open season, though he agrees that younger might
# #be a problem:
# 
# #$ Fuck you.  Don't you fucking dare tell me that I am doing a disservice
# #$ to homosexuality.  Get the fuck out of my sex life.  I have not taken
# #$ any shit about what I have done sexually since I became sexually active
# #$ at age 12.  Just because you do not approve of children having sex
# #$ does not make it wrong.  Get over your hang-ups, I know of many
# #$ situations where boys were involved in man-boy relationships which
# #$ were wonderful.
# 
# Jeff is talking here about a relationship he initiated when he was 12.

Or thinks he initiated.  Child molesters frequently insist that the
child was "coming on" to them.  Why?  Because it absolves them of
responsibility (in their eyes) for what happened.  Why do I suspect
that Jeff has turned the nature of initiation around?

# (The implication is the relationship was homosexual in nature, but it
# is not explicitly stated.) He has not explicitly advocated adults
# pursuing children.  In another posting I question Jeff whether it is

He did explicitly advocate that adults having sex with children is
perfectly OK.

# appropriate for adults to respond to sexual advances from children - I
# don't think it is - but it Jeff thinks he knew what he was doing and
# doesn't think it was molestation. 
# 
# Was this child molestation? 

By the current definitions of the law, yes.  In fact, I doubt that
you'll find very many people anywhere (outside the gay community,
and some prisons) that don't think an adult engaging in sex with a 
child of 12 isn't "child molestation."

# You have presented three postings involving five individuals none of
# which clearly and explicitly support child molestation, I think you
# need better evidence to support your assertion that large numbers of
# homosexuals support child molestation. 
# 
# dave
# manley@optilink.com

I have posted a SMALL sample of the garbage I have received, and
that which was most concise.  I have since told Dave where to
find the rest of #200K of similar postings, many of which dance
around the subject, usually along the lines of, "If 16 is OK,
then 12 is OK, in which case, no law at all."



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.