HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows == OS (NOT!)
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:50:54 GMT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <15882@mindlink.bc.ca> Bob_Daye@mindlink.bc.ca (Bob Daye) writes:
>If everyone here has to try and justify Windows as an OS then it's not an OS.
>Just because someone says it is don't make it so. If I said that (I heard
>this somewhere) if I tell you that we are now going to call a dogs tail a leg
>and then ask you how many legs does a dog have: the people who say Windows is
>an operating system would say 5: the people who don't think Windows is an
>operating system would say 4.
>Windows NT WILL be an operating system - until then Windows is a marketing
>tool.
>
>--BOB
>

OS/2 2.0 is not an operating system either. 

....

Yes, I knoW the above statement is fallacious.  But consider, if I had
posted this in it's tone of "seriousness"--everybody and his kid
brother would justify it as an OS (and flame me to hades while doing it).

Nobody here ever seems to look at what the definition of an "OS" is.  Some
say that Windows is not an OS because it lacks a filesystem... but there
are OS's out there that don't have a "disk" at all!  

The *only* post I've seen that I could readily agree with is that, by
its "definition" (the papers and textbooks "define" an os by the services
it provides--without really qualifying those services... e.g. "managing
resources"): saying a piece of software is an "OS" is like saying a
particular color is "Yellow"... things can be more "yellow" or less "yellow"
but unless it's definitely "blue" you really can't say it isn't "yellow."
What color is the sun?  "Yellow"?  What color are some people?  "Yellow"?

Likewise, Windows is an operating system.  But, albeit, it is "less" of
an operating system than say, "OS/2."  So why can't we leave it at that?
Continuing on would be like saying Christi Binkley's hair isn't yellow.

-> Joe <-
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: danaf@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Frank R. Dana Jr.)
Subject: Re: Essence of flame
Reply-To: danaf@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 03:50:15 GMT

In article <Bvps6t.HGz@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
|> OK Lets see how many derogatory terms I've come across (mostly in
|> comp.sys.amiga.advocacy):
|> 

You haven't been listening....

|> Macintosh               MacinTrash,MacinToss

those are the best, but "9-inch-blacknwhite-overpriced-piece'o'sh*t" describes
it better.

|> PC                      PeeCee

Big Blue Blunder, International Business Mistake, Eye-Bee-Emm, and, worst of
all, "clone"   AUUUUGHH!  8)

|> OS/2                    NoS/2,SloS/2, Half-an-operating-system

Hmm.. I haven't even heard all of THOSE!

|> Windows                 Windoze

I think, as with the MAC, "go-buy-a-586-a-gig-of-ram-and-a-super-duper-AOOGA-
card-you-poor-bastard-then-maybe-I'll-run-but-don't-bet-on-it" says it all.

|> Microsoft               (Too many to list. MicroSucks and such..)
|> Sytos                   SyToss (tape backup software)

?????? SYTOS? Who gives a clone?

|> (Radio Shack) TRS-80    Trash 80
|> TRS-DOS                 TrashDOS
|> Amiga                   Amigo, Amigone

NOTHING derogatory has ever been said about the Amiga! And don't you forget it,
you Amigoid!

|> Amiga users             Amigoids
|> WordPerfect             Word Imperfect

Or just plain "pain-in-the-a$$"

|> -- 
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
|> Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
|> Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !


8B

-- 
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======     
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
	   living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: jackson@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce Jackson)
Subject: Re: Windows == OS
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 22:47:20 GMT

In article <nx#pfjp.timbol@netcom.com> timbol@netcom.com (Mike Timbol) writes:

[stuff about MSDOS not being a real operating system deleted]

>Does that mean that tens of millions of people are using PCs without an
>operating system?

More or less true.  MSDOS has very few features so MSDOS applications
make up for this by doing more of the work themselves.  In other words
since MSDOS is pretty stupid MSDOS applications have to be pretty smart.

There is nothing inherently wrong with just supplying a file system and
program loader and making the applications do more of the traditional
operating system functions.  This works quite well for machines that
are purchased mainly to run certain applications.

Bruce  -  jackson@cs.unt.edu
From: mattair@sun44.synercom.hounix.org (Charles Mattair)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows == OS (NOT!)
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:55:50 GMT
Organization: Synercom Technology, Inc., Houston, TX

In article <92273.195130MBT3@psuvm.psu.edu> Mike Tierney <MBT3@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>     The only thing MacOS truly revolutionized was a whole new way to
>usurp other's ideas (aka Xerox PARC), and call them your own.  Probably
>the only favorable quality about the Macintosh is that the hardware is
>all one standard (thanks to Apple's closely-guarded monopoly), and

And if I contact Gates, he will jump at the oportunity to sell me a source
license and manufacturing rights to Windows.  Caveat: for a sum less than
the national debt of the CIS.

non-standard disclaimer: I use windows, I just dislike arguments where its a
good thing if I do it but bad if you do.

-- 
Charles Mattair		 			mattair@synercom.hounix.org
Any opinions offered are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
Never try to teach a pig to sing - you waste your time
		and it annoys the pig.  (West Texas saying)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: cantor@triton.cis.ohio-state.edu (scott eric cantor)
Subject: Re: Uh....
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 22:43:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.151050.4942@cs.mcgill.ca> storm@cs.mcgill.ca (Marc WANDSCHNEIDER) writes:
>In article <1992Sep26.035240.7913@sequent.com> furballs@sequent.com (Paul Penrod) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep25.185625.13951@ncsu.edu> dspascha@eos.ncsu.edu (DAVID SCOTT PASCHAL) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <1992Sep25.161726.21828@cs.mcgill.ca>, storm@cs.mcgill.ca (Marc WANDSCHNEIDER) writes:
>>>
>>>> WINDOZE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>etc...
>>>
>>>
>>>hmmmm -- looks like some hacker hasn't been getting enough homework to keep
>>>him busy!  :-)  Let's hope Marc WANDSCHNEIDER just forgot to log out...
>>
>>It's fall again...
>>
>>I agree, looks like the freshmen are not getting enough homework to
>>keep them busy. No wonder, Professors do not believe in teaching
>>any more. Something about it not being in vogue...
>
>	Jesus Christ!
>
>	It would appear that everybody's sense of humor has mysteriously
>disappeared.
>
>	This group has been so dead of late, I thought it would be kinda fun
>to post something typical of most advocacy groups.
>
>	However, it might appear that I would have been better off to just
>post some interesting figures about the migration paths of Swedish Elk.
>
>	Christ.
>
>
>Toodlepip!
>Marc 'em.
>

	Actually, I'd guess most of the grad students on the net are just
looking for an excuse to bad mouth people younger and more inexperienced on
the net than themselves 6^)

	 _______________________________________________________
	|							|
	|	Shine on.........				|
	|			Scott <Crazy Diamond> Cantor	|
	|							|
	|	[<<<<<< cantor@cis.ohio-state.edu >>>>>>]	|
	|_______________________________________________________|
From: slo@otter.hpl.hp.com (Steve Loughran)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:47:40 GMT
Subject: Windows UI guidelines?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
From: mbk@lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows UI guidelines?
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:27:21 GMT
Organization: Institute For Nonlinear Science, UCSD
NNTP-Posting-Host: lyapunov.ucsd.edu
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
: Steve Loughran writes
: > 
: > Isn't it about time MS came out with some UI guidelines?
: 
: [many well-thought out comments deleted]
: 
: Hear hear.  Take a look at NeXT and how the interface is consistent  
: across apps, not just in menu structure and command-key combinations,  
: but visual look and feel.  All buttons look like buttons.  Sliders  
: are sliders.  Pop-up lists are pop-up lists.  Even toolbars are often  
: very similar across apps (eg in graphics programs, the tools palettes  
: have very similar icons; no need to look at the manual to see what  
: they do).  And not only is the interface consistent, but it is also,  
: IMHO, the most beautiful around (no flames, please, just a subjective  
: opinion).

In visual beauty, I agree.  It's true Star Trek.

I think that perhaps openlook might be slightly
superior in mechanical functioning.  Mac is good but not as good as these.
Motif, and especially Windows suck.

: Stefano Pagiola
: Food Research Institute, Stanford University
: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)

--
-Matt Kennel  		mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu
-Institute for Nonlinear Science, University of California, San Diego
-*** AD: Archive for nonlinear dynamics papers & programs: FTP to
-***     lyapunov.ucsd.edu, username "anonymous".
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: jhenshaw@microsoft.com (Jeff Henshaw)
Subject: FCC certification levels (was: Considering an SGI...)
Date: 05 Oct 92 00:24:05 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article 20939 of comp.sys.next.misc,
begonia@hardy.u.washington.edu (Rubricant Horticulturist) writes,

| In article <1992Oct4.163636.12643@u.washington.edu> 
| tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>jhenshaw@microsoft.com (Jeff Henshaw) writes:
>>In article 2043 of comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,
>>| use at home, which rules out NeXT.  NeXT (at least, the ones that they
>>| sell here at UW) only are FCC certified for office use.
>>
>>To the best of my knowledge, the *entire* NeXT product
>>line is FCC certified as FCC class 'A.'
>>I have several friends who have purchased, quite legally,
>>NeXT boxes from the UW campus store for home use.  The
>
>Class 'B' is what is required for home use, isn't it?  Anyway, there is a
>sign right above the NeXT on display at the UW store that says that they
>aren't to be used at home due to lack of FCC class 'B' certification.
>
>--Tim Smith
| 
| This "sign" at the University (of Washington) bookstore has been
| placed there fairly recently.  We were the first people to buy a NeXT
| through them and that certainly was never mentioned (yes, we have it
| at home).  So we asked a bookstore employee about it and he said that
| NeXT was in the process of getting its certification for home use.
| Also, the sign was placed there because of complaints from competitors
| who want the U Bookstores student customers or something.  No, these
| competitors wouldn't give the educational discount.  Not that the
| University Bookstore gives you the best discount.  So, in a nutshell,
| I was told to ignore the sign as it was there to placate the
| opposition.

My mistake...it is class 'B' FCC certification that is required
for home use (my post which contained NeXT's regulations snip
mentioned that  NeXT boxes are class 'A' certified).

Out of curiosity, since the University of Washington is apparently
being required to post a notice that such machines (class 'A',  in
this case NeXT boxes) are not intended for home use, I'm wondering
what the requirements of computer vendors are in this case?  I
notice that none of the other computer vendors who carry NeXT
hardware display a sign like this (at least that I've seen).

As long as my hair doesn't start falling out, I'm not too
worried.  HEY, WAIT A MINUTE...what are these clumps of stuff
on the floor ?!?  My dog must be shedding...yeah...thats what
it is   :-)

-Jeff 
jhenshaw@microsoft.com
not a microsoft spokeshuman.
"The only thing to fear is fearlessness"  -M. Stipe

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: Considering getting an SGI indigo
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 00:08:11 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.191654.8035@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> audley@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Christopher D Audley) writes:

[ ]
>
>Here's what the "Setup and Tutorial" says:
>
>"Warning: NeXT computer systems generate, use, and can radiate radio frequency
>energy, and if not installed and used in accordance with the instruction manual,
>may cause interference with radio communications.  The systems have been tested
>and found to comply with the limits for a Class A computing device pursuant to
>Subpart J of Part 15 of FCC Rules, which are designed to provide reasonable
>protection against such interference when operated in a commercial environment.
>Operation of a NeXT system in a residential area is likely to cause inter-
>ference, in which case the user at his or her own expense will be required to
>take whatever measures may be required to correct the interference."

FCC B is a requirement for home use. NeXT does not accept any responsibility
for costs or whatever which a home user may suffer in order to correct that
interference. What if the interference happens to result in something
serious happening?
 
I use a Cube at home. I am extremely concerned at this time re the lack of
FCCB (and the equivalent up here) status of my equipment. It is unclear to me
just how liable I would be for some serious mishap.
 
If NeXT does not want to get their equipment certified for home use (and their
whole approach seems to be that people should be in work groups, networked
together, programming mission critical apps) then it would not be a minor
thing to even suggest that they should be used at home.
 
Mine will move to work shortly unless more information is provided regarding
the extent of liability. 
>
>So it looks like your OK as long as it doesn't cause a problem.  Its funny,
>my roommate has a Mac right on the other side of the wall from my NeXTstation
>and my monitor jinks a bit everytime he turns his machine on.  My machine
>has never affected his.  I wonder if Mac's are Class B.

Mac's, and all Apple equipment, are Class B. I can't conclude that it's OK.
It's in fact very disconcerting.
 
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
From: ketil@spurv.ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Oberon
Date: 5 Oct 92 19:36:40 GMT
	<KETIL.92Sep30150509@linerle.ii.uib.no>
	<1992Oct1.121356.6497@cam-orl.co.uk>
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of computer science at the University of Bergen, Norway

In article <1992Oct1.121356.6497@cam-orl.co.uk> thg@cam-orl.co.uk (Tim Glauert) writes:

   |> Is there really any reason for me to change to, say NT or OS/2, or
   [...]
   |> Now, what can OS/2 or NT offer? 

   Applications.

Yep.  What applications?  Or were we talking about OS/2? 
The point is, I don't really feel the need for WP, Excel or whatever.
I do need a decent programming environment, some text processing,
mathematical programs, and of course a powerful environment to tie it
all together.  Unix provides me with all this, at least as well as any
other OS I have looked at.

I'm not saying nobody should buy NT (or OS/2) just that I won't.

   |> Anybody actually run NT yet? 

   Yes. I am one of the 20,000 people who have the Preliminary Software
   Development Kit. The Beta will be out in a month or so and will probably have
   even wider coverage.

I am one of the 4,999,980,000 people who don't :-)  This is only for
developers, isn't it?

   Anybody actually *use* Linux yet? :-)

Estimates are in the range from 10,000 to 100,000.  When I get hold of
a computer, it will be between 10,001 and 100,001.


--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: eps@futon.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott)
Subject: Re: FCC Class A (was Considering getting an SGI indigo)
Reply-To: eps@cs.sfsu.edu
Organization: San Francisco State University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:09:40 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.210440.12621@netcom.com> abell@netcom.com
	(Steven T. Abell) writes:
>The difference between Class A and Class B is that the guvmint boys think
>a Class B device *might* cause TV interference under certain circumstances,
>while a Class A device *will* cause TV interference under those circumstances,

WRONG!

Read the regs--they're not about *TV* interference.  They're
about *RF* interference, with specific limits in various
frequency ranges.  If a device radiates next to nothing in TV
bands but pollutes like crazy above or below, it can't be
certified Class B.

NeXT's current hardware is verified Class A.  The only announced
product what will run on Class B hardware is NeXTSTEP 486.

Ob. reference: [U.S.] Code of Federal Regulations, Chapter 47
(Telecommunications), sections pertaining to "unintentional
radiators"--better libraries will have copies.  (Note that 47 CFR
is published annually--and is now a year out of date.  If you
need to be certain you have the most up-to-date information,
check the Federal Register.)

					-=EPS=-
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: lockhart@eecom.gatech.edu (John B. Lockhart)
Subject: Built-In 3.0 Drivers for Non-PS Printers??
Summary: Really!
Organization: Computer Engineering Group, Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0250
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:27:53 GMT


I was snooping about the freshly installed 3.0 release on my hard drive,
and had made my way down to /usr/lib/NextPrinter, when I noticed a new
directory:  Drivers.

Upon investigation of the files therein and cross-referencing them with
/NextLibrary/Printers/..., I gather NeXT added general dot matrix printer
support to NeXTSTEP, and didn't bother to tell anyone.

Searching through the Digital Librarian Developer docs, I could find no
references to this stuff, so:  Am I dreaming?  Would it be possible for
me to gid rid of my bastardized 5th generation hack of EPS' original iwf
kludge?  Can I, with a little work, make a color version for my DeskJet
500C, and not purchase Dots Color (which costs about as much as the
printer itself)?

At first glance, the only dot matrix printers included are the IBM ProPrinter,
and an Epson, but I guess that there are more and I'm just missing them.

Some of this smacks of NS486:  there's a directory in there called
"NXParallelComm" (right before, logically, "NXSerialComm").


Could someone please comment on all this and tell me where I can find docs
on it, so that I can start work on a 500C description file, instead of a
machportdevice-using C program?  EPS, are you there??


--John


PS:  Skeptics, check out the file:

  /usr/lib/NextPrinter/Drivers/NXDotMtxDriver/IBM_ProPrinter_24P_%_NeXT.pmdb

-- 
::|  Hudson: God, this floor is cold.                                       |::
::|  Sarge: Whatcha want me to do, Hudson, fetch yer slippers for ya?       |::
::|  Hudson: Gee, would you, sir?  I'd like that.                           |::
::|  Sarge: Look into my eye!                                               |::
::|                                                               --Aliens  |::
::::::::::| John B. Lockhart |::::::::::| lockhart@eecom.gatech.edu |::::::::::
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
From: jhenshaw@microsoft.com (Jeff Henshaw)
Subject: Re: Considering getting an SGI indigo
Date: 04 Oct 92 08:57:31 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article 2043 of comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,
tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes

| spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu writes:
| >Have you considered either getting a NeXT or waiting till early next
|
| I was under the impression that he was considering getting something for
| use at home, which rules out NeXT.  NeXT (at least, the ones that they
| sell here at UW) only are FCC certified for office use.
|
| --Tim Smith

To the best of my knowledge, the *entire* NeXT product
line is FCC certified as FCC class 'A.'
I have several friends who have purchased, quite legally,
NeXT boxes from the UW campus store for home use.  The
same applies to OSU's (Oregon State U) campus bookstore.
At MIT, NeXT machines are the #2 sellers to students for
home use, following the Mac at #1.

A few area computer stores also sell NeXTs into the private
sector.  I have never heard of any problems with the legality
of using them at home.

This is what the 1993 NeXT product catalog has to say on
the subject:

	"REGULATIONS

	 - UL478, CSA 220, and IEC950
	   (EN60950) product safety
	   requirements

	 - FCC Class A, VCCI Class 1, CISPR-22
	   Class A (EN550022) EMI
	   requirements"
      
What does all of this mean?  I'm not exactly sure, but it
applies to the NeXT Cube, NeXTstation, NeXTstation color,
and NeXTstation turbo models (ie - all of them).  I hope
this provides more information...

                              '       |
                                      |/\
_____________________________/| eff__/| / enshaw_______
                              |/        \/
                             /|
jhenshaw@microsoft.com       \|

not a microsoft spokesperson.

"...the question of why it is that we and the universe exist.
 If we can find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate
 truimph of human reason -- for then we would know the mind
 of God."
                                          -Stephen W. Hawking

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: jbone@splat.dell.com (Jeff Bone)
Subject: Re: Windows == OS (NOT!)
Organization: Dell Computer Co
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:56:53 GMT

ketil@linerle.ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde) writes:
>
>>   There's no innovation here, no revolution, only capitalism, which is
>>   fine in its own right but not worth remarking on.  You want innovation
>>   and revolution, you have *got* to look beyond MicroScrap.  It's 
>>   practically axiomatic.  
>
> Yes, yes.  Byt *what* a marketing department they must have!  And the
> bean counters seems to swallow anything they [MS] produce, and
> actually believe an (unbelievable) kludge like Win is *great*
>
> Sigh

Yes!  That's exactly it.  They have enough monetary mass and marketing
chutzpah to create whatever artificial market reality they want.  You
ever see the movie "They Live"?  Put on your damn sunglasses, everyone;
NT is not Salvation, the Company from Redmond is a pit of fiends, and
Billy is the Devil himself! ;) :)  (how's that for metaphor mixing? ;)

Skate UNIX or Die!  :)  Standard disclaimers.


jb





--
-- Jeff Bone ------------------------------------------------------------
        NT...  Just say N0T.   Skate UN*X!   Standard disclaimer. 
------------------------------------------------------- jbone@dell.com --
                                                                       --
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc