HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: History of Acupuncture (was Re: TCM)
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 00:41:52 GMT

In article <BzMxJJ.KuF.1@cs.cmu.edu> cycy+@cs.cmu.edu (Cowboy) writes:

   As a start, I want to point out the accupunture is a technique of Traditional
   Chinese Medicine, not separate from it. Also included would be different types
   of massage and Chinese herbal formulae. It is a system which is in common use
   throughout Asia, including in Japan, along with western medicine, and I believe
   it is the oldest medical system in existence. It can also be very complicated.

It is *not* in common use throughout Asia. At the peak of its
popularity in China (which happened roughly 15 years ago), acupuncture
anesthesia was used in no more than 5% of the operations because it
usually doesn't work. Its use is extremely rare today.

The history of acupuncture is quite interesting, having been
re-discovered and rejected many times throughout history by Asia and
the west. Even the recent fad of electroacupuncture was used in france
in the 19th century.

Acupuncture owes its modern status in China to the good Chairman Mao.
When Mao first came to power, acupuncture was not considered valid by
the Chinese. Unable to provide decent health care to the masses, Mao
reversed a 20 year Kuomintang policy and declared acupuncture (along
with many other superstitious medical practices) to be valid. This was
purely a political/world status move - it was important to China's
status to prove that she could take care of her people by herself. By
repelling China's version of a consumer protection law, all of a
sudden there was no longer a doctor shortage!

They even went so far as to hoax visiting westerners (part of the
Nixon trip in the 1970's) by staging major surgery whose only
anesthetic was claimed to be acupuncture. The patients actually had
received local chemical pain killers or local anesthetics before the
surgery.

The Chinese herbal formulas in pill form that you can find in health
food stores and other places are illegally marketed and dangerous.
These pills contain very potent drugs in addition to the herbs, but
these drugs are not listed on the label. The FDA has found high levels
of Valium, Librium, anti inflamitories and other drugs in these pills.
One drug that has been found is Aminopyrine, which has been illegal in
the US since 1938 because it can cause agranulocytosis.

Y'all enjoy those quaint chinese remedies now...

sdb
---
sdb@ssr.com
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Monday, 21 Dec 1992 22:09:17 EST
From: Len Alshan <LMACC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject:    echinacea

Has anyone had any experiencing using echinacea.  If so, please tell me
type purchased (extract,power,pills) and dosage used.
Thanks
Len
From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: History of Acupuncture (was Re: TCM)
Date: 28 Dec 1992 18:53:16 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center and Reptile Farm
NNTP-Posting-Host: grissom.larc.nasa.gov

>The Chinese herbal formulas in pill form that you can find in health
>food stores and other places are illegally marketed and dangerous.

This is sometimes the case, unfortunately.  Because there is no mandated
purity standard for these substances in this country, they are sometimes
adulterated.  I would be more wary of substances to come out of Hong Kong
than of those coming from Taiwan and the mainland.

Now, a lot of the Chinese herbs that are used really don't do any good
at all.  Some of them may be dangerous if misused.  Most of them are
either innocuous placebos, or fairly safe compounds, however, and are
definitely not "illegally marketed and dangerous."

>The FDA has found high levels
>of Valium, Librium, anti inflamitories and other drugs in these pills.

This is a statement I would doubt.  While it's possible that this kind
of adulteration has taken place once or twice in the past, it's not routine.
After all, valium, librium, and the like are expensive.  The people who
adulterate drugs generally do so to reduce cost, not to increase it.
--scott
From: dancer@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: echinacea
Date: 26 Dec 92 19:00:24 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

In article <BSIMON.92Dec22071814@elvis.stsci.edu>, bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu 
(Bernie Simon) writes:
> Yes, I used echinacea about a year ago. I bought the tincture and used
> it during two colds. The dose I used was 30-40 drops in a glass of
> warm water, the dose recommended on the label. I took it 2 or 3 times
> a day. My experience was that it provided some relief, but did not
> eliminate the colds. In contrast, I took some homeopathic medicine for
> a cold two months ago. It provided dramatic overnight relief and the
> cold was gone 2 days later.

Would you know the name of said remedy? Did you get it from a homeopathic 
practitioner or off the counter? The strength?

Thanks in advance.

---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---
Dream Dancer                               dancer@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
aka                                        dancer@acm.rpi.edu
Martha Underwood                             Four cats and a
                                             burmese python
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:17:58 GMT

In article <BSIMON.92Dec23071932@elvis.stsci.edu> bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon) writes:
>If you read my first post, you would have seen that I listed several
>double blind studies which show the effectiveness of homeopathic
>medicines. Can you cite some studies which show that homeopathic
>medicines do not work any better than placebos?

Yes. Its called avagodro's (sp?) number :-)

The delutions I've heard of being used in homeopathic medicine don't leave
even a single molecule of the substance!

If there was some substance left then it would make sense to ask about
its effects.
-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: How far should Homeopathic medicine be followed?
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 00:40:55 GMT

In a previous article, mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu wrote:
>In a previous article, terryk@encore.com (Terence M. Kelleher) wrote:
>> 
>>I ask the question in the subject line to those who are believers in
>>homeopathic medicine.  I'm not against it, but I have reservations.  
>> 
>>A couple I know seem to be carrying it too far.  They see only a
>>chiropractor for all medical problems.  He does not prescribe any
>>non-natural medicines.  They have 2 children, one 2 years and the
>>other 4, who have never seen an MD, and have never been given vacines
>>or innoculations.
> 

Oh, one more thing, ask them what they would do if a vaccine for AIDS was
discovered.

Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
From: pettit@cs.unc.edu (Cynthia Pettit)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Amalgam & Gold & Monitor Emission
Date: 30 Dec 92 01:57:30 GMT

In article <BzxxsJ.Mn9@ssr.com>, sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne) writes:
|> In article <hans.725449378@mcshh.hanse.de> hans@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Hans Lehmann) writes:
|> 
|>    Question: Could amalgam and gold inlet in teeth in combination with monitor
|>    emission cause critical health problems?
|> 
|> No.

hmmmm.  That seemed to cut off this thread.  This issue is still
under debate.  I'm not going to try to argue this point, but I know
for a fact that this topic is *not* closed as far as alternative
health advocates go.

Studies have shown that mercury/silver fillings *do* give off mercury
gas -- sometimes in higher quantities than is acceptable by government
industry standards! and I myself have read voltages from my own
mercury fillings [before I had them removed].  This combination is
suspicious to me.

Certainly if you look at the instructions given to dentists to
dispose of the left-over amalgam, one would again be wary. (do not
handle the amalgam, seal in an air-tight container, etc.)  We keep
this stuff in our mouthes?!

If you have studies that prove or disprove the above question, please
post them.  Though, I'm wary of studies done by a biased
organization, such as, say, the ADA...

I am also wary of postings of answers with no evidence whatsoever, as
if the answers were definitive.  This is a place for *discussion*.

And another point, which should become the motto of this group: the
evidence doesn't have to be in for it to harm you.

Cynthia

-- 
"It has been suggested that watching the microwave 
	could be hazardousto your health...
should I wait until the studies are in to worry, 
	or should I worry now?"
					-- the cartoon Sylvia
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Bates method
Date: 29 Dec 92 06:35:30 GMT
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California

In <1hnj56INNfm@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> shreeved@ece.orst.edu (David
Shreeve) writes:

>     Would either of you accept as evidence that there is something to
>the Bates method the case studies of Dr. Bates detailed in his book
>"Better Eyesight Without Glasses" ? 

I can't speak to Dr. Bates cases specifically, but I've got a general rule
that I like to see independent research on alternative therapies before
seriously considering a therapy.  (There is such independent (and more
recent) research in the field of natural vision improvement.)

>     There are vision therapists out there with patients who pay to have
>training in Bates-type techniques.  Is this evidence for you that there
>is something to it?

There are people who will pay for anything.  This is not good evidence
(independent of whether the therapy works or not).

>     Unlike the mask-the-symptom quick-fix that glasses are, Bates offers a
>theory and a technique which I am convinced shows a way to correct visual
>errors permanently.

I've had some success with natural vision improvement techniques similar
to Bates'.  I've found them useful, too.

Pete
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: bsimon@elvis.stsci.edu (Bernie Simon)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: None. This saves me from writing a disclaimer.
	<schumach.725151943@convex.convex.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 12:19:21 GMT

In article <schumach.725151943@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:

   I have. It is a religion, in essence, because its adherents  
   require no evidence for its efficacy beyond the anecdotal. Name some
   double blind trials that were not conducted and sponsored by people 
   with a monetary interest in the outcome.

It the usual thing in medicine for studies of a new drug to be funded
by the company that is planning on selling the drug. If you throw out
all studies that have been funded by drug companies, you are throwing
out most of the research on allopathic medicines. I don't know who has
funded most of the research on homeopathic medicine, but absent any
evidence of fraud, I am willing to accept it just as I accept similar
research on allopathic medicines.
--
Bernie Simon	(bsimon@stsci.edu)		ad astra per aspera
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Chiropractic advice
Date: 30 Dec 92 19:05:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <1992Dec30.131424.14546@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, thagerma@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Teresa D Hagerman) writes:
> 
> 
> Since I started spending much of my workday at a desk and/or a pc, I've noticed
> an increase in neck, shoulder and upper back pain.  I've tried stretching 
> exercises at work and they do provide some short-term relief...but I still ache
> at the end of the day.
> 
> I am considering chiropractic care. A co-worker gave me a gift certificate for 
> a visit to her doctor, so there won't be any cash at stake for the first visit.
> 
> Suddenly, many well-meaning friends and family members are warning me..."it
> will cost an arm and a leg"..."it does more harm than good"..."they're a bunch 
> of quacks"..."you just need to get more exercise"...and so on.
> 
> Does anyone have any advice?  Any experiences (good or bad) to share?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Teresa Hagerman

Absolutely you should go see a chiropractor for back trouble. "Regular"
doctors don't know diddly about backs - they just give you pain pills and
tell you to rest and not overexert yourself (which is good advice as far
as it goes). But they can't actually DO anything to really help the back
heal itself. Obviously there are many causes of back pain, and the
proper treatment will depend on what the problem is. 

You may have guessed by now, I have been treated by a chiropractor off
and on for the last several years. I was reluctant at first to try an
"alternative" form of health care, but the results have been good for
me (and most of the people in my office as well). On the first visit, he
did a very thorough exam (including x-rays) of my back. I am very
fortunate that through the UC I have Blue Shield, which covers 
chiropractic care (as long as it's billed properly). I have seen 
Dr. Ross during several flare-ups in the past two years. It usually
takes several visits for things to calm down, but it always does
work. He has given me exercises for the lower back too, which is a
good preventative for future problems. I'm also a lot more conscious of
posture at work.

If you do go see a chiropractor, I'd advise you go to one who is
recommended by friends or acquaintances (if possible). Word of mouth
is the best advertisement.

Good luck!

Richard Darsie
darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: The _Practice_ of Alternative Health Care
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:07:06 GMT


One poster asked about finding a practitioner and I think this is a
critical issue in the acceptance of alternative systems.  In
reading the book, "The Science of Homeopathy", the author may
describe the current science behind homeopathy, but he also spends
a lot of time describing the _art_ of the homeopath!  He also
describes how effective TCM (oh no, a new TLA) can be _if_ you
find an experienced practitioner; a task that he says is very difficult.

My point is that the holistic nature of homeopathy makes it very
difficult to apply in many cases.  While there are some simple
remedies, the application gets very difficult for the types of
diseases that most people go to allopathic doctors for.  It may
be a simplification to decribe allopathic diagnosis as methodical,
or a cook-book, but it is more "standardizable" than is 
homeopathy.

This factor has two effects on the acceptance of non-allopathic
systems.  The first is that the quality of care may vary dramatically
since there are not a large number of well-established training
institutions.  Second, the speed-is-of-the-essence, assembly line
mentality common in the US (and presumably other developed countries)
fits more with the 5 minute allopathic doctors appointment.  The 
second part shows how truly holistic the problem is.  Even if full
scientific proof of effectiveness is provided, many alternative
systems may find acceptance difficult because they don't fit.  
Many people would still rather take a pill than make even minor
lifestyle changes.

The final point is that the effort of finding a practioner should
be taken very seriously for non-trivial concerns.  I have been 
lucky in finding excellent practitioners here in Boulder but there
is a larger-than-average supply here.  There are national boards
for both homeopathy and Chinese medicine.  Maybe someone can post
their contacts so that people can get references.
-- 
==============================================================================
A though for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 05:07:46 GMT

In <BzvM8p.3uz@ssr.com> sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne) writes:

>I wondered how long it would take before someone would post this
>comment here. Scientific discussion is supposed to be welcomed here, I
>have mail (and copies of articles posted to news.groups by yourself)
>assuring me that scientific criticism would be welcome and encouraged
>in misc.health.alternatives.

Applying the scientific method to alternative health is great, and is
specifically encouraged here.

*Please*, if you have scientific data, discussion, or even criticism
relevant to alternative health, POST IT TO MISC.HEALTH.ALTERNATIVE!

On the other hand, we're *not* interested in applying Western
medicine's tunnel vision (or, ideally, *any* tunnel vision, though
that's probably wishing for too much) to alternative health.  That's
why we're here in misc.health.alternative, and not in sci.med.

(There is, of course, much more to Western medicine than its biases,
much of which has applicability to evaluating alternative health, and
therefore, to misc.health.alternative.)

Scott writes:

>I suggest that you should be encouraging posts like Schumachers.

Richard Schumacher had written:

>Now we get to the crux of the matter. Alternative medicines are fads for 
>dilettantes, and last resorts for the desperate. What sane person with a
>choice would treat, say, ventricular insufficiency or a tetanus infection
>with alternative medicine? Alternative medicine types were getting hypnotised
>for gout in the 1700s, buying magnetic corsets for treating backaches in the 
>1880s, taking radium mud baths for abdominal cancer in the 1920s, and using 
>Eastern medicine for everything at all times. The scams and self-delusions
>change only in form, not in substance.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any science here.  Blanket prejudice, yes.
Scientific data or reasoning, no.

Please, post scientific criticism of alternative health!  But criticize
alternative health scientifically -- not just because it's unconventional.

Thanks!

Pete
From: fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Asthma, adult onset
Date: 23 Dec 1992 06:33:35 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1992Dec23.025935.5821@netcom.com> rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan) writes:
>
>
>Have you tried temporarily stopping the Vitamin C?  This 
>is the only way to know if you feel better due to 
>Vitamin C or due to the natural course of your disease.
>I bet it's the latter.
>
I have and it get's progressively worse.  My immune system has gotten
a break so it takes a little while for it to go back to where it was
but until I am able to find the real cause I prefer C to steroids and
other antihistamines.

-Kevin
fish@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

----------
Hackers do it with fewer instructions!

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:42:55 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


Bernie,

Excellent post. Thanks for the effort. I was looking for referances
to the AMA's intense repression of homeopathy but saw none.

Homeopathy never 'died out', it was politically stamped out by the AMA
in the early 1900's.

Was there a reason this was ommitted from your history? (a non-confrontational
question)

Greg


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Subject: Orthomolecular Approaches to Medicine
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:10:48 GMT

Hello,

I've seen the term "Orthomolecular" used by several medical doctors.  From
the small amount of information I've seen, Orthomolecular medicine *apparently*
focuses on the role of nutrient/micronutrient balance in the body on health,
and any imbalance can lead (or aggravate) various illnesses.

Is this a correct definition of Orthomolecular medicine?  Are medical doctors
who claim that specialty considered quacks by the orthodox medical
establishment?  Is there a diplomate in Orthomolecular medicine?

Just curious.

Jon Noring

-- 

Charter Member of the INFJ Club.

Now, if you're just dying to know what INFJ stands for, be brave, e-mail me,
and I'll send you some information.  It WILL be worth the inquiry, I think.

=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.com        | I VOTED FOR PEROT IN '92 |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   | Support UNITED WE STAND! |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 417-4101   |  caravan moves on."      |
=============================================================================
Who are you?  Read alt.psychology.personality!  That's where the action is.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: TIFN
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 02:44:08 GMT

I won't be around for the next couple of weeks. Anybody who just *has*
to flame me will have to send me mail.

Regards,
sdb
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Asthma, adult onset
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:40:10 GMT

In a previous article, fish@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kevin Haddock) wrote:
>In article <1992Dec23.025935.5821@netcom.com> rkaplan@netcom.com (Richard Kaplan) writes:
>>
>>
>>Have you tried temporarily stopping the Vitamin C?  This 
>>is the only way to know if you feel better due to 
>>Vitamin C or due to the natural course of your disease.
>>I bet it's the latter.
>>
>I have and it get's progressively worse.  My immune system has gotten
>a break so it takes a little while for it to go back to where it was
>but until I am able to find the real cause I prefer C to steroids and
>other antihistamines.

In addition to the C, you might also try the bioflivanoid Quercitin.  My
holistic MD has been recommending this for the last year or so for allergies
and Asthma as a natural antihistamine.  You should be able to find it in health
food stores.

Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: blaisec@sr.hp.com (Blaise Cirelli)
Subject: Fibromyalgia
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 23:24:46 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

Fibromyalgia


Anybody out there have this diagnosis. I do and would like to share 
information about treating this "syndrome". 

The medical community doesn't know much about it but considers it to be
very similar to CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome).

Have tried regular MD's; accupuncture; physical therapy; some homeopathy
remedies that were self prescribed; etc.

Would very much like to converse with people out there who have it and
want to have a dialogue.
  


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative