From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: Against Our Will
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:39:52 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <92009@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> In article <11400@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >3. I have discovered, based on gay-positive textbooks and articles, 
> >that homosexuals are disproportionately involved in child molestation.
> 
> What he found was that 80% of child molestation _incidents_ are men
> abusing girls. He found that men who abuse boys molest them at a rate

You need to work on your very limited reading skills.

Here's what I posted on that subject:

@ 1. Janet Shibley Hyde, _Understanding Human Sexuality_, (McGraw-Hill,
@ New York, 1990), 422.  Hyde's book is certainly the most gay positive,
@ gay supportive, and gay encouraging textbook I've ever seen.  But
@ when you read what she has to say on the subject, even her best efforts
@ at hiding the serious nature of the problem of homosexuality and
@ child molestation fail:
@ 
@     Actually, most child molesting is done by heterosexual men to
@     little girls; 80 percent of child molesting is in that category,
@     and only 20 percent is homosexual (McCaghy, 1971).  [Hyde, 422]
@ 
@ Even accepting the 10% figure for the percentage of homosexuals
@ in the population (which is clearly too high), that means that homo-
@ sexuals are overrepresented among child molesters.  

Read it.  Hyde admitted that 20% of child molestation is homosexual.
Not 20% of a subgroup.

@ 2. I was also sent an article (by someone trying to prove that 
@ homosexuals aren't abnormally likely to be child molesters) by 
@ Gene G. Abel, M.D., with Nora Harlow, "The Child Abuser: How can 
@ you spot him?", _Redbook_, August, 1987, starting at 98, in which 
@ Abel and Harlow summarize the data collected in an eight-year national 
@ study of child molesters for the Antisocial and Violent Behavior Branch
@ of the National Institute of Mental Health.  The study covered
@ 403 molesters.  Those 403 molesters had molested more than 67,000
@ children.  
@ 
@     And not only do molesters assault boys more often than they assault 
@     girls, but men who molest boys also have an astonishingly higher 
@     number of victims--an average of 282 victims compared to an average 
@     of 23 victims among men who assault girls.[Abel and Harlow]
@ 
@ According to Abel and Harlow, "Only 21 percent of the child molesters
@ we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual.
@ Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were
@ heterosexual or bisexual..."  Think about it -- 21% were EXCLUSIVELY
@ homosexual -- and Abel and Harlow lumped bi and straight together,
@ presumably to avoid embarrassing the gay community by showing that
@ bis are a major chunk of of the remaining 79%.

Read it.  The data presented is designed to put homosexuals and
bisexuals in the best possible light, and even this admits that
homosexuals are grossly overrepresented among the number of molesters,
and among the number of incidents.

@ Let's go back to Hyde's very gay sympathetic textbook:
@ 
@     According to the _The Gay Report_, 93 percent of the male homosexuals
@     have never had sex with someone 12 or under.  The comparable
@     statistics for lesbians was 98 percent (Jay & Young, 1979).
@     [Hyde, 422]
@ 
@ Of course, that means 7% of the male homosexuals and 2% of the
@ lesbians had had sex with "someone 12 or under."  Does anyone
@ think that the numbers are equivalent for straights?  TWELVE OR UNDER!
@ No wonder NAMBLA has so much support in the gay community.
@ 
@     Further, most adolescents are initiated into homosexual activity
@     not by an adult by rather by another teenager (Sorenson, 1973).
@     [Hyde, 422]
@ 
@ Why didn't Hyde tell us what percentage were initiated by another
@ teenager?  Because the number is closer to 51% than to 99%?  
@ This looks like an attempt to hide how much of teenaged homosexual
@ initiation is done by adults -- exactly the concern that makes
@ me so nervous about NAMBLA.

I ask again -- why did a gay-positive textbook suddenly become
unable to provide a percentage on this issue?  Because it didn't
look good for the gay community?  The number of postings in soc.motss
where homosexuals describe their first homosexual experience as a
a teenager, introduced by an adult, is astonishing.

> which is 10 times higher than girls, perhaps because boys are on a
> looser parental rein than girls are, perhaps because they are more
> reluctant to report abuse. But the fact that boys collectively are the

And perhaps because homosexuals molest a lot of boys.

> victims of multiple-molesters much more than girls are, and the fact
> that man-boy abuse only accounts for 20% of all incidents of molestation,
> plus the statistic that only 21% of the men who abuse boys are exclusively
> homosexual, together show that exclusive homosexuals only represent between
> 2 and 5% of the total number of child molesters.

You are combining two different sets of results in a way not warranted.
You are conveniently leaving out the bisexuals involved in homosexual
molestation.

> And what, pray tell, is wrong with encouraging homosexuality to those
> who already self-identify?

What's wrong with encouraging heterosexuality, then?  The problem is
that teenagers are terribly confused about a lot of things.  It doesn't
take much to persuade a confused teenager to get drunk, take stupid
risks with cars, and any of a number of other peer pressure items.
So they are confused about their sexuality, what with hormones raging,
the social skills not fully developed with the opposite sex, and you
want some adult to come in and teach them that they can get instant
sexual gratification by going into gay bars.  Great.
 
> >You also don't consider the possibility that gay teen suicide might
> >be caused, not by societal pressures, but by whatever was the fundamental
> >cause of their homosexuality.  Has anyone ever studied suicide rates
> >above sexually abused kids?
> 
> Spoken just like someone who refuses to see the light. If suicidal tendencies
> are a fundamental part of homosexual orientation, as you suggest, why might
> these tendencies peak in teen years, when ALL of us experienced the greatest
> amount of social angst? Why don't you see gay elders committing suicide any
> more than straight elders? After all, they have the same orientation, what's
> preventing these "organic" suicidal tendencies from surfacing?

Perhaps for the same reason that you don't see many deaths past 80?
By the way, a lot of older homosexuals are dying of a slow form of
suicide: AIDS.

> Open your eyes, Clayton.

You opened them up.

> >When you and your wife have kids, and you start finding boys who have
> >been molested by gay men (as happened recently to a friend's nephew
> >in the East Bay), you'll start to appreciate the fear that
> >those of us with kids now have.
> 
> As the studies you've read have shown, 80% of molestation victims are
> girls; of the remaining 20 percent who are boys, 21% of their molesters

Still not reading carefully.  80% of molesters were bisexual or
heterosexual -- but not 80% of the victims, because the homosexual
molesters were molesting FAR more kids.

> are homosexuals. So there is a one in five chance that your friend's
> nephew's molester was gay.

The molester has been arrested.  He is a homosexual, and in typical
pattern, gained his position in a public school, not as a regular
teacher, but brought in from the outside to teach video production
in an extracurricular activity.  He molested more than a dozen boys
before the authorities stepped in.

> kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc