From: esper@cs35b.cs.umn.edu (Dave Sherohman)
Subject: Re: Yet another request for advice...
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:06:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.225736.28390@jetsun.weitek.COM> weaver@jetsun.weitek.COM (Michael Gordon Weaver) writes:
>People break up all the time, and then get back together. There is no
>guarantee that you two will get back together, but I wouldn't write her
>off, either.

Trust me - I haven't even come close to writing her off.  As she pointed out
when we talked last night (Tuesday), all of our feelings are still the same.
I'm more concerned with how to keep being each others' closest friends and keep
dancing together without sliding back into our old relationship.  (Yes, I agree
with her that dating probably isn't the best idea right now.)  I've seen too
many couples where both members were my friends and they got into a pattern of
breaking up and getting back together repeatedly, and it's just not worth it -
I don't want to start dating her again until we both (at least semi-rationally)
agree that it's a good idea for her to be dating.
>
>I'd say you owe her an apology. It sounds like from your point of view,
>she has been getting involved with you while pretend that she isn't,
>and you fault her for it.

No, actually, she faults herself for it.  I didn't want to go into a full
description of all that transpired, so it may have come off sounding like I
was a bit hard on her.  In reality, it was all very 'gentle' and it was also
clear that I was commenting on her not taking responsibility for her actions
out of concern, not anger.  There were/are no hard feelings on either side, we
just knew what had to be done and went through on it, even though neither of
us wanted to.

>I hope you understand that you made some tactical errors. I don't mean
>this as a criticism of you. I know it is easy to get caught up in the
>heat of the moment. But I think it might help you, especially if you
>want to apologize.

Tactical errors?  This wasn't a military exercise (yes, I'm a big wargamer, and
that's the first thing the phrase suggested...), not was it a gambit to get her
to make a decision in my favor.  It was a case of me trying to help a friend
with a perceived problem.  And I wasn't caught up in the heat of the moment, as
there was no heat, just concern.  As for apologizing, she and I agree that there
is no need.
>
>First, by pointing out her hypocrisy, you made her become unhypocritical
>-- unfortunately the wrong way from your point of view. People are
>afraid of being dependent, and most anything you do which makes them
>more conscious of the degree of their dependence on you will make them
>pull away.

Quite the opposite, actually - by pointing out that she wasn't taking
responsibility for her actions, I got her to consciously take charge of at
least on aspect of her life.  True, I don't like the direction she chose to
go with it, but the fact of the matter is, the only surprise in that was how
difficult the decision was.  With the number and magnitude of conflicts between
us dating and the rest of her life, I almost expected to be dismissed out of
hand.
>
>Second, you say she got defensive.

I was unclear again - she didn't this time (I have no clue why this is), I was
just commenting that it had been her usual response in the past.

>Third, you gave her an ultimatum ('all she can do is take
>responsibility). There was no threat, but it was still an ultimatum.

What else could I have told her?  Again, maybe I was unclear, but the entire
message was 'You can't hide from our relationship - it's a part of reality.
All you can do is decide what you're going to do about it.'

Sorry about the ambiguities...  Actually, the whole incident was so calm and
bad-feelings-free that I don't really like to refer to it as 'breaking up',
I just can't think of a better term for the cessation of a romantic involvement.

Dave Sherohman
esper@ima.umn.edu