From: hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: /What is a Pagan?
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 15 Dec 1992 10:30:49 +0100
Organization: University of Duisburg
Reply-To: hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke)
NNTP-Posting-Host: unidui.uni-duisburg.de

Hi there - Stayka is here!

(I hope I sorted out correctly who of you wrote what - I always seem to 
 loose track of the number of '>'s when I'm trying to read a dialog that
 is a little bit more complex... I just tried to get it a bit better 
 readable - at least in my humble eyes...) 

In article <fWvYkG5@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) 
writes:
PH> In article <1992Dec12.160457.6276@athena.cs.uga.edu> 
PH> tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
 TK> In <fWk3agN@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) 
 TK> writes:
  PH> A'ight. I'll buy that too. But, I think you have to proceed with
  PH> caution, because if you put the field of opposites together, there 
  PH> is no guarantee that you can reverse it. So, if you take the two
  PH> opposites of you and me and are able to perceive the ONE, then there 
  PH> is no more *you*. By Hindu dogma, *you* vanish in a puff of light, 
  PH> into the transcendent.
 TK> And is "vanishing" something we should strive for?  (or "simply realize 
 TK> in the satori sense).
 TK> I would think that all pagans would completely reject
 TK> the idea of a monistic universe, where everything is really illusion 
 TK> and no particular gods exists anyway.
 TK> Wouldn't ya'll agree?
PH> Why would you think that? Wouldn't that be dogmatic? I am aware of no
PH> such rules of paganism, perhaps others will care to comment. I think if
PH> you look around you will even find atheistic pagans. Hinduism, the
PH> collected beliefs of the pre-Islamic Indian subcontinent, is clearly
PH> pagan,

Well, actually *I* am one of those weird 'pagans' who toy with the thought
that everything is a big illusion... I'm a most strange mix out of a dream
reality philosopher (or how one might name it), and still I believe in 
something I'd like to call everything-that-is (I'm not sure the back 
translation from German renders the term as it was in the original book -
just see Jane Roberts' Seth-Books), which may manifest in the eyes of 
other people in the form of various God/dess/e/s. Sometimes I can best 
relate to that power (or what else) beyond in the image of the Goddess,
on other times I just think of it as an abstract 'force'.

As *I* think that there is NO TRUE REALITY that WE could grasp with our
limited mind, I think EVERYTHING we believe in is valid, because it's 
an IMAGE of the abstract 'power' behind our views. 

I am always sad that there are followers of religions who think
themselves as the ultimate solution and want to wipe out everything
alien to them. It's such a terrible waste of lives and thoughts - and
ways that all should be gone to find the Last Answer. 

In my eyes the Universe is a perpetual game which starts with a 
Beginning and goes on until someone finds the Last Answer to The
Question of the momentary turn. Then the cards will be shuffled anew,
the dice thrown, to set the environment for the next Game.

But don't ask me who's the Player, or what is The Answer - if I knew
I wouldn't be here anymore! |-) 

Ah, as I mentioned my beliefs so nebulously... Here is something
I give anyone who askes me what they are about. This is ONE LITTLE
PIECE that BELONGS to my strange thoughts, and I have written it in
German, but I put the translation behind it. 

I had to replace the original German umlauts (ts, it looks strange to
see it in English...) with ae, oe, ue and the sharp s with ss. I hope
you don't mind. 

----------------------------- CUT HERE -------------------------------

AMYSHICA!
---------
by Stayka deyAvemta
(c) 1989

Schliesse die Augen und sieh!
Hebe die Arme und beruehre das All!
Stehe auf dem Boden und sei eins mit der Welt!
Fuehle die Unendlichkeit und sei!

Wisse dies:

Wir sind die Kinder des Ersten Prinzips, und wir halten den Traum.
Wir sehen die Pfade, und wir kennen Zeit und Raum.
Wir sind die Kinder des Ursprungs, unser ist die Alte Macht.
Wir kennen den Realitraum jenseits von Tag und Nacht.
Wir sind nicht gut, nicht boese, sondern blosse Energie.
Wir dienen keinen Goettern, sie sind eure Phantasie.
Wir fuehren nicht, noch lassen wir uns leiten.
Wir leben nicht nur hier, sondern in allen Wahrscheinlichkeiten.
Wir verurteilen niemals, weil wir nur sehen.
Wir sind die, die jenseits von allem stehen.
Wir kennen keine Grenzen, nicht von Ebene, von Zeit, von Ort.
Wir sind Ewige Sucher nach der Letzten Antwort.
Wir tun, was wir wollen, doch nur, was nichts verletzt.
Wir leben zwischen Wirklichkeit und Traum und Jetzt.

Du kannst nicht wie wir werden, aber du kannst es sein.
Doch dafuer musst du dich erst von dir selbst befreien.
Hast du deine Fesseln geloest und weisst du, wer du bist -
Dann seist auch du in unserer Mitte gegruesst.

Und dann wirst du verstehen, wenn ich sage:
Amyshica! - Ich traeume das Universum...

----------------------------- CUT HERE -------------------------------

The translation may sound a little rough, but it's due to the fact
that I try to stick as close to the German version as possible!

AMYSHICA! 
 (This belongs to the bunch of esoteric-science-fantasy stories I'm 
  writing. There it is a version of the name of the First Principle of 
  the Universe, the-one-who-dreamt-it-all. In the stories it's also 
  the name of the Dreamer's Children, the ones who watch the universe.)

Close your eyes and see!
Lift your arms and touch the sky! 
 (originally it would be 'space' but I think, 'sky' fits better in English)
Stand on the ground and be one with the world!
Feel infinity and be!

Know that:

We are the Children of the First Principle, and we hold the dream.
We see the paths, and we know time and space.
We are the Children of the Beginning, ours is the Old Wisdom. 
 (Wisdom fits even better than the expression I used in German - that would
  be 'force' or 'power' - well, that was to get the rhyme straight... )
We know the realidream beyond day and night.
 (realidream is the same word construction as Realitraum in the German 
  version - a combination of reality+dream)
We are neither good nor evil, but pure energy.
We don't serve any Gods, they are your fantasy.
We do not lead, nor do we let someone else led us.
We don't live only here but in all probabilities.
We do not judge because we only watch.
We are the ones who stand beyond of everything.
We know no frontiers, neither of plane nor time nor space.
We are Eternal Searchers for the Last Answer.
We do what we want to, but only actions that do not hurt anything or -one.
 (I explicitly didn't write WILL instead of want. In German it's all 
  the same - 'will' and 'want' translate the same in that context.)
We live between reality and dream and now.

You cannot become like us, but you can BE it.
But to achieve this you have to free your mind from your self.
 (It's a little bit more explicit in English than in German, I think.)
When you have shook of your chains and when you know who you are -
Then we will greet you in our midst.

And then you will understand when I say:
Amyshica! - I dream the universe...

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Micaela "Stayka" Pantke  |      See, what happened to mankind
Westhoffstrasse 111      |      The grandeur of the past
W-4200 Oberhausen 11     |      So hopelessly declined
Germany                  |      Just vanished to dust!
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Newsgroups: alt.pagan