From: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Probability of Evolution
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 10:53:30 EST
Reply-To: kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us
Organization: Kalki's Infoline BBS, Aiken, SC, USA

kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:

>    Put it this way - *we* were talking about science.  *You* were
> talking about Vedic philosophy.

Science without philosophy is impotent. Philosophy without science is
mere sentiment.

> > You did not state that you thought it was an obscure scientific
> > publisher, but an obscure religious publisher. Therefore our answer was
> > appropriate, since it is neither obscure nor "religious".
> 
>    Sorry, but Vedic philosophy is affiliated with religion.  And just
> because something is widely noted in some circles doesn't mean it's
> not obscure.  

By this definition of obscurity, most of the scientific literature is
also obscure.

> >> > I am not a professional scientist.
> >> 
> >> I somehow expected that. :)
> > 
> > Well, good for you.
> 
>    I don't think it took much analytical thinking to figure that one
> out.

Well, good for you, again.

> >> Heck, we don't even KNOW you need a planet to have life- you need
> >> one to get life like us, but what's so special about that? 
> > 
> > I agree with this statement. It is not necessary to have a planet to
> > have life. In fact, matter is not neccessary for life.
> 
>    Well, it helps.  Can you explain how one can have life without 
> matter?  Is energy alive?

Neither matter nor material energy is alive. Soul, or nonmaterial energy
is alive. That is what life is.

>    BTW, I and four other people are still awaiting your explanation of
> how viruses are alive and have consciousness.
> 
> > There are books about information theory, probability, statistical
> > mechanics, molecular biology, etc. I simply can't state all the
> > derivations of everything I refer to here. Some of it just has to be
> > taken for granted. You have to assume that some scientist out there will
> > scream if I do something wrong.
> 
>    They have been.  So far I don't see any admission of it though.

If we make errors in computation or misstate a definition of some widely
accepted scientific term, then there is every cause to "scream". But
objecting to our premise that life is not a material phenomenon is not
within the power of any scientist, since no scientist can account for
all the properties of life simply by postulating that they are
the result of material interactions directed by physical laws.

Although there have been some "scientists" (at least, they pretend to
be) who have raised objections to some of our statements, these have
nearly all been objections that in some way rest on our definition of
life, and not on our use of simple concepts like "information" and
"abiogenesis".

"Information content" has two main uses:

1) The self-information of an event in a probability distribution,
defined as the negative of the logarithm of the probability of the
event.

2) The information content of a theory or set of laws, which is the
length of the shortest computer program which will calculate solutions
to the equations of the theory to an arbitrary degree of accuracy.

"Abiogenesis" means the proposition that living organisms were formed
out of nonliving matter over a period of time solely by the action of
the laws of physics on the initial distribution of that matter.

"Evolution" is defined by Prigogine, Nicolis and Babloyantz (Physics
Today, Dec. 1972) as: "the result of random mutations arising from
errors in the replication of the genetic material..." etc. They go on to
say that "natural selection directs the mechanism by which an organism
can survive and increase in number and complexity."

These, as far as we know, are the standard definitions accepted by you
"scientists" (perhaps we should define that too). Of course, the word
"evolution" is used in a great variety of other ways, even by scientists
whose fields have little to do with biology, and it is given a rigorous
definition in some of those fields. (i.e. "...the time evolution of the
state of a physical system is governed by the Schrodinger equation...")

Sincerely,
Kalki "athato brahma jijnasa" Dasa


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      |   Kalki's Infoline BBS Aiken, South Carolina, USA     |
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Newsgroups: talk.origins,comp.ai.philosophy