HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:19:47 EDT
From:         PJ Geraghty <JX655C@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Frustrating patients

True story...happened just a few hours ago...

MVA, arrived on the scene with an elderly woman sitting in the car complaining
of sternum pain.  Claims she hit the steering column.  Moderate damage
to vehicle, including some to the column.  Immobilization begins, starting
with head stabilization.  Medic goes to put on the c-collar, but the woman
(79 years old, native German, speaks English with a heavy accent) FREAKS.
Rips the collar and refuses repeated attempts to replace it.  Says her chest
hurts too much.  Insists that she wants to be taken to the hospital but
refuses the collar.  She also refuses to be brought onto a backboard in a
prone position.

What would you do?  We need your help...she's still sitting in the car...(just
kidding!)  Answer in the next post...

_________________________________________________________________________
|PJ Geraghty, FF2/NREMT-P             | (insert opinion disclaimer here)|
|5020 Battery Lane                    |**********CUBS in '92!!**********|
|Bethesda, MD 20814        (SnailMail)|                                 |
|301-652-0077/301-409-0648 (Telephone)|                    Tube 'em all;|
|JX655C@GWUVM                 (BitNet)|            let God sort 'em out!|
|JX655C@GWUVM.GWU.EDU       (InterNet)|        Guinness is GOOD For You!|
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From: kreisel@BRL.MIL (GWD Robert G. Kreisel)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: [JFS5986%RITVAX.BITNET: swat medics! NOT!!!]
Date: 12 Aug 92 11:45:32 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Org.:     Army Materiel Systems Analysis Activity - APG, MD. USA
Phone:    (410) 278-7291   DSN: 298-7291
Fax:      (410) 278-2778/6242
X-To:         emerg-l%marist.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu

>Good example of proper proceedures.  BUT..Do you always wait for the police?
>
>I do, as a medic I have to use my head not my adrenaline in situations
>like this.  If the medic is trained in defensive "maneuvers", you know as
>well as I do that s/he will want to use them.  I know I would want to try them.
>

>Jim Simons                                    RIT vol Ambulance


Oh of course.  Along with what you are saying, people need to learn,
WE ARE NOT POLICE.  When the scene is not safe, do not go in.  Generally
our dispatchers here in Harford Co. are very good about telling us to "stage
until police arrive and the scene is safe".  But what if you are dispatched
to what appears to be a normal scene, and something goes sour.  Remember,
often times we put ourselves in some vulnerable positions.  But agree with
you that many people will want to "try" it.  Have you ever noticed how
people who take martial arts (karate, etc...) seem to get in more fights
than those who do not.  I thought the purpose was to learn to defend
yourself, step one being to avoid fighting.  Medical personnel should be
taught how to recognize an unsafe seen, and avoid them, but if caught in
a predicament, how to get out!

Rob


==============================================================================
                           Robert G. Kreisel, Jr.
  __________        Jarrettsville Volunteer Fire Company
  |AMBULANCE|_o_       Harford County, Maryland Co. 7
  |   791   |---\_               HAZMAT 1-A
  =(*)-------(*)-'                 EMT-A
                              (kreisel@brl.mil)
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
From: af905@yfn.ysu.edu (Ed Shanks)
Subject: Re: Swat Medics! Not!!!
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:38:55 GMT


Not really a reply as such, just a commentary on the times. I'm
a firefighter in Boardman, OH. In neighboring Youngstown, before
the city fathers in their infinite wisdom (not!) did away with
Medic 55, their FD ambulance service, the medics routinely wore
flack vests when responding to calls in certain neighborhoods.
Now SWAT Medics?! It's nice to feel needed, wanted, loved, etc.

-- 
When all is said and done, I'd                          Ed
rather be remembered for what
I've done than what I've said. - - - {Said by Ed!}
From: puh@pecan.sarnoff.com (Patrick U. Hsieh   x3145)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Re: swat medics! NOT!!!
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:13:26 GMT
Organization: David Sarnoff Research Center

In article <01GNGKC6E9CY9BVGLJ@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> JFS5986@RITVAX.BITNET wrote:
[ ... ]
> I agree completely with points 1&2.  Let the police do their work.
> They do not want us in their way during the tension period.  We
> do clean-up work after the scene is secured.  All law enforcement
> officers are specially trained so non-officers should not be involved.
> 
> What does point 3 mean?  It contradicts what we are talking about.  This
> discussion started about a special team of volunteers who work with
> agressive police units.

Let's get this straightened out.  In the programs of which I am aware, SWAT
medics are sworn law enforcement officers.  They are an integral part of the
team and participate in all of its training.  And yes, they carry guns for
personal defense, not to supplement the firepower of the primary entry team.
Nobody is talking about non-police getting involved in SWAT operations.

> ________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Jim Simons                                    RIT vol Ambulance
> JFS5986@RITVAX                                Henrietta vol Ambulance
> Rochester Institute of Technology             Strykersville vol Fire and Rescue
> Electrical Engineering (4th year)             NYS certified EMT
> ________________________________________________________________________________

Patrick Hsieh, EMT-A                            puh@sarnoff.com
David Sarnoff Research Center

So many adventures couldn't happen today,       Alphaville
So many songs we forgot to play,                "Forever Young"
So many dreams swinging out of the blue,
We'll let them come true.
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
From: slosh@rdd.lmsc.lockheed.com (Jon Schlossberg)
Subject: Looking for info on emergency management software tools
Keywords: emergency management software
Reply-To: slosh@rdd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missles & Space Co., Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 22:36:53 GMT

Hi -

  I'm looking for information on computer software tools used in
emergency management.  Specifically, tools that assist emergency
personnel in planning and then responding to emergency events.  I
assume most of the tools I'll find will be, for instance, map-based
tools that assist EOC personnel in visualizing and then responding
to situations.  Any resource allocation tools or specialized tools
that do chemical plume modelling or the like would be of interest.

  I'm working on a research project here at Lockheed that's looking
at building some intelligence into human-computer interfaces and
we're using emergency planning and response as our domain.

 - Jon Schlossberg
   EMT-1A
   Lockheed Palo Alto Research Labs
   Palo Alto, CA
   schlossberg@casablanca.rdd.lmsc.lockheed.com
   (415)-354-5231
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Oakland Wildland Fire Update
From: Joe.Nicholson@f1014.n202.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Nicholson)
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:04:43 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:202/1014

Responding to criticisms from the California Office of Emergency Services,
the Oakland Fire Department has changed it SOP when responding to wildfires.
The State faulted the department for not extinguishing a grass fire last
October that rekindled into one of the costliest fires in U.S. history.

The revised SOP includes plans to move 3 to 6 more engines to hillside
stations on high-hazard days, and increasing the level of response to
alarms in brush areas on those "red flag" days.  A new mutual aid
agreement with Berkeley also calls for each city to dispatch at least
2 engines to reported brush fires on other days.




 

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Internet: Joe.Nicholson@f1014.n202.z1.fidonet.org
From: ddodell@stjhmc.fidonet.org (David Dodell)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Newsgroup as Digest?
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 21:27:59 mst
Organization: St. Joseph's Hospital/Medical Ctr, Phoenix, AZ

Is this newsgroup available as a digest by email?  If so, please let me know 
by direct email.

Thank you.
 

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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1992 16:26:31 -0400
From:         KEN <KAK6279@RITVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: nitrous oxide

        Just a quick question...
          What is nitrous oxide used for in pre-hospital care.  I've just
finished my EMT-Basic course,  and in neither the class or the three  years
that I've been in EMS have I heard of it being used.

                                                        FireMAN
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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:02:13 EDT
From:         BARBARAL@NIHRRLIB.BITNET
Subject:      test

|Date: 8-13-92  2:51pm
|From: barbaral:ncrr-lib:nih
|  To: emerg-l@marist.bitnet : bitnet
|Subj: test
------------------------------------------------------------------
test message
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
From: aq479@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul E. Sincaglia)
Subject: Re: nitrous oxide
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 16:15:05 GMT


the use of NO2 in the field is a wonder drug of sorts.  We use
it (paramedic administered) to patients with non-life threatening
injuries with extensive pain....Broken Bones etc.  

The true effect, is that the patient administers the gas to 
him/her self  and for many patients the degree of the pain 
is diminished.  Simply put...If the patient isn't screaming
bloody murder, it is easier to function performing the
necessary tasks of immobilization and moving without the
added stress of a patient in "distress"  The other good aspect is
that if one wishes to check the patients status without being
sedated, the gas wears off in minutes.

Paul Sincaglia
Chagrin Falls Fire Dept.
Chagrin Falls OH

-- 
There ought to be one day - just one - when there is open
season on Senators.
                             -Will Rogers

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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:38:00 GMT
From:         Daniel Burstein <0001964967@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject:      info on Patient RIGHTS

In response to the requests for copies of the "Patient Bill of
Rights.":  Most (perhaps all) States have adopted codes of this
sort, which basically, enumerate the following:

1) Patient has right to -EMERGENCY- care regardless of income,
insurance, race, sex, etc.

2) Patient has right for INFORMED CONSENT.  i.e., MUST be told
the course of treatment, options, hazards, and the like.
3) Patient has the right for CONFIDENTIALITY of all medical
records.

4) Patient has the right to know the names and positions of all
people rendering care.

-and-

5) Patient has the right to REFUSE TREATMENT at any time.

These are the general rules followed by the differing States.
Check with your individual Dep't of Health for exact regulations.
(I'll try to post the complete text of New York's in the next
week or so)

THEN, there are the FEDERAL regulations.  These apply through two
separate series of laws.

a) "Hill-Burton." -based on the Hill-Burton act, which provided
construction funds for hospitals. In return, the facilities
agreed to provide free or reduced charge patient care services.
(If your hospital follows the regs on this one, they'll have a
poster, usually in the ER, saying that "in accordance with Hill-
Burton, we will provide xxx.yy in reduced charges."  Typically,
there will then be a second sign, dated January 10th, saying "the
funds for this year have been exhausted."

b) COBRA - the "Comprehensive Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act"
of 1985, as amended by the "OBRA" acts of later years.  This
applies to ALL HOSPITALS receiving Federal funds (i.e. Medicaid),
which is 99.99 % of them.  (I vaguely recall there were a handful
of instituions that made it a practice to NOT accept ANY Federal
money, so as to remain immune from such regulations.)

COBRA has a lot of non-medical things in it (after all, it is
really a tax/budget bill), but it also has some VERY IMPORTANT
sections dealing with health care.

The following sample text is from the ACEP (American College of
Emergency Physicians) COBRA book, titled "Patient Transfers - how
to comply with the law." :
   .	It's the Law!
	If you have a medical emergency or are in Labor
	You have the RIGHT to receive
	An Appropriate medical SCREENING EXMAINATION
	Necessary STABILIZING TREATMENT
	and, if necessary,
	An Apprpriate TRANSFER to another facility
	even if..
	You CANNOT PAY or DO NOT HAVE MEDICAL INSURANCE
	or
	You are not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid.

The patient also has the RIGHT to REFUSE treatment.  Again, to
quote from the ACEP manual:

	Who May Consent or Refuse?

     Any competent, conscious adult may refuse treatment, even if
that refusal may result in injury or death.  (page 36)

Penalties to the hospital and the medical personell who violate
these statutes are VERY EXTENSIVE.  But that's a story for
another day.

Copies of the ACEP book are available from ACEP, 800-798-1822.

take care,
Danny
<dburstein@mcimail.com>
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Swat Medics
From: Kurt.Ullman@p0.f290.n231.z1.fidonet.org (Kurt Ullman)
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:04:59 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:231/290.0 - The RoadHouse BBS (, Indianapolis IN

JD>The Uniformed Servcices University for the Health Sciences (USUHS)
JD>has had an EMT-Tactical program in the past, and presumably will
JD>continue to do so.  I can get a contact address and phone number if
JD>there's interest.

        I'm just finishing up an artilce for Firehouse on this program.
It should appear  within the next 2-3 months.  I have talked w/ people
at USUHS, Park Police Swat and a couple of medics. It is a very
interesting program that covers quite a bit.  Any questions, I will try
to answer (or of course wait for the article and then write to FH
tellling them what a great story it was (G).)

 

--  
Internet: Kurt.Ullman@p0.f290.n231.z1.fidonet.org
From: Peter.Dahlgren@f50.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Peter Dahlgren)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Saulsbury Pumpers
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:41:46 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:272/50 - The Final Encyclope, Peekskill NY

To All:
        Our department is finalizing specs for a new pumper. At this time we a 
leaning toward a Saulsbury. If anyone has purchased or has had any dealings 
with them I would be interested in your opinion.   Thanks,
          Peter Dahlgren-Croton Fire Dept. Croton, N.Y.

 

--  
Internet: Peter.Dahlgren@f50.n272.z1.fidonet.org
From: fsdjt2@acad3.alaska.edu (Wonko the Sane)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: AK -> GA Reprocicity (sp?)
Date: 22 Aug 92 07:57:00 GMT
Organization: Alaskan Inst. For The Very, Very Nervous
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41.UAC

Does anyone know if Alaska and Georgia have a reprocicity agreement for EMT
transfer?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: Kurt.Ullman@p0.f290.n231.z1.fidonet.org (Kurt Ullman)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: Swat Medics! Not!!!
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:19:12 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:231/290.0 - The RoadHouse BBS (, Indianapolis IN

PUHX>From: puh@pecan.sarnoff.com (Patrick U. Hsieh   x3145)

PUHX>Let's get this straightened out.  In the programs of which I am aware, 
SWA
PUHX>medics are sworn law enforcement officers.  They are an integral part of 
t
PUHX>team and participate in all of its training.  And yes, they carry guns 
for
PUHX>personal defense, not to supplement the firepower of the primary entry 
tea
PUHX>Nobody is talking about non-police getting involved in SWAT operations.

        Many are not sworn, San Diego and San Fran. come to
mind as places where the regular 911 ambulance medics become SWAT
medics. Now before I get flamed, the SWAT medics are very few, carefully
chosen and then carefully trained.  You don't pull a medic at random off
the streets and place him/her in this situation anymore than you would
take a random patrolman and make him a sniper.
        Just like everything else, the jurisdictions seem to have
evolved the system that works best for them.

 

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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 04:34:00 GMT
From:         Daniel Burstein <0001964967@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Our solution to the frustrating patient
X-To:         Emergency Services Discussion List
              <EMERG-L%MARIST.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu>

Kirk Smith, EMT-P, in a thread on how to deal with a
recalcitrant patient (she refused to be c-collared after an MVA0,
said (roughly): If the patient is capable of rational thought
            and you tape them against their will, then you're guilty
            of assualt.

He adds: I'm a big advocate of patient rights.  If I refused aid
    and you forced an IV on me or duct-taped mne to a board, then
   you'd wind up in court, and likely lose your certification.

My $.02:  I, also, am a BIG patient right's advocate, and
have been known to hand patients the "patient bill of rights"
(do -you- have your copy? It, or something similar, is MANDATED
under Federal law...) so they can tell the obnoxious medical
types what to do with themselves...

  BUT, that being said, there are times when -we- know, or
suspect, that the patient should get further treatment
than they prefer.

This is a -very- sticky legal question, but I have NEVER found
a decision that went against EMERGENCY PERSONNEL for forcing
a patient to accept (moderate amounts) of treatment.

(There HAVE been cases against hospitals and others for EXTENDED
care, but that's another story).

On the OTHER HAND, there have been some trials in which crews
did -not- do full immobilizations because thepatient objected, and
there were medical consequences, and teh crews WERE held liable.

So... If anyone knows of an incident where a crew was, indeed,
found guilty of kidnapping or what have you, in a VALID EMERGENCY
situation, I'd VERY much like to hear about it.  But at this time,
I strongly suspect this a one of those legends... (Kind of
like the business cards to Craig S..)

take care,
Danny Burstein

<dburstein@mcimail.com>
From: CDUNBAR@UNTVAX.BITNET
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: The Honor is to Serve
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:04:24 GMT
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This is a little exerpt from the front page of our department's telephone
directory.  I found this paragraph most heartening and I would like to share it
with everyone.  Some of you have probably already read this, but its meaning
now remains as when you last read it, and when it was written:

                I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a
        fireman.  The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly
        one; but we who know the work which the fireman has to do believe that
        his is a noble calling.  There is an adage which says thet, "Nothing
        can be destroyed except by fire."  We strive to preserve from
        destruction the wealth of the world, which is the product of the
        industry of men, necessary for the comfort of both rich

        industry of men, necessary for the comfort of both the rich and the
        poor.  We are defenders from fires of the art which has beautified the
        world, the product of the genius of men and the means of refinement of
        mankind.  But, above all, our proudest endeavor is to save lives of men
        - the work of God Himself.  Under the impulse of such thoughts, the
        nobility of the occupation thrills us and stimulates us to deeds of
        daring, even at the supreme sacrifice.  Such considerations may not
        strike the average mind, but they are sufficient to fill to the limit
        our ambition in life and to make us serve the general purpose of human
        society.

                           Chief Edward F. Croker
                           New York City Fire Department
        ----- reprinted w/o permission from the Cypress Creek VFD

Just thought ya'all would want to have the opportunity of reading such a
touching expression of what we all feel.  Enjoy!

*******************************************************************************
Chris Dunbar                      Bitnet:  CDUNBAR@untvax
Junior                            Internet: CDUNBAR@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
University of North Texas
Computer Science Major
Cypress Creek Volunteer Fire Department and the Argyle Fire Department
Level I Certification
*******************************************************************************
From: Glenn.Matthews@f34.n371.z1.fidonet.org (Glenn Matthews)
Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Subject: NFPA Computer Research
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:41:34 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:371/34 - Diver Down BBS, Fort Myers FL

Would anyone have any information about software or telephone numbers that we 
can connect to for research of NFPA Standards?  (i.e. for report writing in 
the Fire Prevention Inspections)  We already use the Fire Research in Maryland 
every now and then.  It would be nice to have something in-house to look up 
Standards; it could be alot faster than reading everything to reference a 
violation.



 

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Newsgroups: misc.emerg-services
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:48:45 EDT
From:         Y01S000 <Y01S@SETONMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?

Brad,

I agree that all/most of us get great enjoyment out of the
volunteer activities that we do.  However, I think the point
that Brent was trying to make is that we provide a service to
the community and that our employers should recognize and
encourage/support that in big or small ways.

The other point is that the "fun" most of us have volunteering
comes with a personal price.  I greatly enjoyed being able to
help the 76 year-old women with SOB last night at 3 am, however
I am paying the personal toll of functioning on 4 hours of sleep.

I would like to see more companies become involved in supporting the
local volunteer fire/ems agencies that serve the community and also
in many cases that comapny as well.

MHP

- David

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
David J. Adinaro                     BITNET: y01s@setonmus
Assistant Director of Admissions   INTERNET: adinaro@setonvm.shu.edu
Seton Hall University                 VOICE: (201) 761-9332
South Orange, NJ 07079                  FAX: (201) 761-9452
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