From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:20:59 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <strobl.718461278@gmd.de>, strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:
> In <6145.2ad1dc34@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
> 
>>Except that they don't work in all cases, so you can't use them.
> 
> True. If another window has the keyboard focus, they won't work.

While it may be obvious to a PROGRAMMER when the keyboard focus changes,
it certainly isn't ovious to the USER. When I bring up a dialog box within
the same application, it may TECHNICALLY be a different window, but to me,
the user, it is the same application.

> This is just what I would expect in a system with more than a 
> single window. 

But not what you would expect in a system with a single APPLICATION. That's
my beef.

> But as long as the window which has the menu bar we are talking
> about *has* the keyboard focus, you can use all available menu navigation
> methods given by the standard menu keyboard interface. 

You can. It is quite modal, and requires a bit more cognitive effort than
using a mouse, but you can.

> That Peter couldn't remember the shortcuts doesn't surprise me -
> I'm unable to remember them, as well. I use them all the time while 
> working with Windows applications, but if you would ask me how
> to open a file in Write, I would have a hard time to come up with
> the correct answer Alt d f. Fortunately, my hands and fingers
> know it better.

Funny. As a long-time Mac user, I can recite all the standard shortcuts 
from memory. And my fingers know them quite well. 

Which is exactly the point. If you have to think about the shortcuts, then
you might as well use the mouse -- its faster. If you can't remember them
instantly, game over.

And what's the use of training your fingers to type something, if it can't
be used in all cases. I started working with Windows, and I got used to
ALT-EP for paste. I didn't like it, but I got used to it. Then I brought up
a dialog box. WHAMMO. ALT-EP didn't work. So much for saving time with
shortcuts.

And if Write has a shortcut of ALT-DF to open a file, then it proves my 
point completely. There is no consistancy between Windows applications. The
correct shortcut would be ALT-FO.

>>> They're learned automatically as you use the system... 
> 
>>NOT!
> 
> Why not? I've learned them automatically, while I used the system, and
> I know a lot of people who learned them while they used the system.

Except they don't work. So you learn them one way, then you have to go
back and learn the REAL shortcuts.

> Perhaps there *are* people unable to memorize short (i.e. one
> or two) key sequences they use all the time, but I doubt  
> very much that they are in a majority.

There's actually a large difference between a two and three key sequence. 
That's why I find Windows menu navigation to be cumbersome.

On the Mac, I don't care where the Open menu is. I just hit Command-O and
I've got it. Under Windows, I can't be sure exactly where this menu is.
Is it under the File menu, where it should be? Or perhaps I'm using 
Write, where it falls under a different menu.

>>And as soon as you try to use one of those ALT- shortcuts in a dialog,
>>WHAMMO -- all that learning goes out the window.
> 
> Wrong, plain and simply. Dialog boxes have a very nice and standard
> keyboard interface, which includes the Alt+ letter shortcuts, of
> course.

Nope. You can't do a Paste using the ALT+ shortcuts. You have to do 
<taking deep breath> Ctrl-Ins. 

Or if the application is more progressive, Ctrl-V.

> Where do you get your information about Windows?

From using it. ARGH!

>>Using the computer without a pointing device is a benefit? Oog. I disagree.
> 
> Please read what he writes. To be able to operate a computer without
> a pointing device is a benefit. To be forced to use a pointing device
> in order to use the computer isn't. 

I disagree. The pointing device is a natural extension of real-world learning.
Keyboarding is not. I do not agree that being able to use a visual interface
from the keyboard is a benefit when the mechanisms to do this get in the way 
of other interface elements through inconsistant usage.

If ALT-EP worked even from a dialog box, I'd feel better. I'd still think of
the three key shortcuts as cumbersome, but they wouldn't be so awful. They 
don't.

> 
>>No, if you don't know what they are, then you can't recall them. You are
>>back to the old remember/recall cycle that we've shown is faster with the
>>mouse.
> 
>>Second, it proves you never learned them at all, since you couldn't remember
>>them. If you can remember them in a discussion, you can't remember them
>>on the keyboard.
> 
> Do you really think that it is as simple as that? There is no reason
> to remember two letter shortcuts much longer than you actually use
> them. 

This assertion is exactly contrary to my experience as a Macintosh user.
I remember all the standard shortcuts BECAUSE I use them. Either the
longer Windows shortcuts aren't used (and hence aren't learned), or the
complexity of the cumbersome nature of the interfaces bars learning.

> Do you actually *read* the menu bars of your applications, each
> time you select a menu entry? Probably not. 

The beauty of a visual user interface is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO. You
don't have to READ just RECOGNIZE.

In a CONSISTANT visual user interface, it is even better, because recognition
is faster since you already know what to expect!

> You read it once, or twice and remember it by its various attributes 
> (mostly: position) and use it blindly, later.

Yup. And this is exactly why mousing is faster than keyboard shortcuts.

If you and Peter are actually trying to tell me that you use Windows by
pressing Alt, then thumbing through the menus by pressing the arrow keys,
or by looking at the menu items and typing the appropriate shortcut, then you
are TONS slower than users using the mouse. The comparative cognitive load
is immense.

> If you are unsure, you start to read them, again. But are you able
> to remember the position of a submenu entry (i.e. third entry, fourth
> choice) in a discussion? 

Actually, I usually can. But that's just me. 

> Of course not, and, more important, it doesn't
> prove anything whether you do it or not. 

It is important. The issue at hand was the CONSISTANCY of the user 
interface. I put for the example of Windows shortcuts as an INCONSISTANCY.
If you can't remember the shortcuts, it proves the inconsistancy.

> Menu and dialog navigation, as implemented by Windows, works in a 
> very similar way. When you start, you actually read whats written
> in the menus or on the buttons. But if you have selected an entry
> for a few times by typing the underscored letters you are looking
> at, it becomes a mechanical action, which doesn't require you
> to read the menu or the dialog box, anymore. 

Until you try that action in a dialog box. Or switch to another application
that uses different menu structure. Then -- WHAMMO. All your learning goes
down the drain. Cognitive load.

> You recognize the menu or the dialog box as a whole, and react with the 
> one or two letter sequence you have assoziated with the one or two
> word (i.e. command) sequence which describes what you intend to do.

It is faster to do this with the mouse. With the mouse, you just reach out
and grab the item you see. With the keyboard, you have to recall, then
synthesize the appropriate key, then you have to type it. By the time you've
done all this, the mouse user has already grabbed his mouse, grabbed the
item on the screen and returned to the keyboard for the next thing. Faster.

>>Except the Mac doesn't have an ALT key. It appears your learning is
>>defective.
> 
> You mean, his whole argument breaks because the Alt key is called
> Command key (or apple key? I, too, don't recall the name), on
> the Macintosh? 

It goes by various names: Command, Clover, Pretzel.

Alt is not one of the names.

The argument breaks down because your learning is defective.

>>This is also the problem with OS/2 PM and Windows. There's no consistancy
>>in the UI design. (Gee, we've come full circle)
> 
> Well, indeed. The Macintosh UI is different from PM and Windows, and
> more consistent, often by omission. This doesn't always make it 
> better, imho.

IMHO, Consistancy is lots more important than feature count.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
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Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
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