From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Why I think Kach's policies are racist (AND DANGEROUS)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:27:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.052946.29120@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:

# makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)

# warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)

#       DM writes:

# ># >	That is not the point, although G-d has made certain promises
# ># >that if X happens he will do Y.  Unless you are willing to call G-d a
# ># >liar, we can force Y by seeing to it that X occurs.

#       WB writes:

# ># I would be interested in knowing what promises God has made.  Has he
# ># promised, for example, that if Israel adopts a particular policy (if
# ># so, which?) that a particular result is guaranteed?

#        DM writes:

# >	I did not want to get specific.  I do not think that we should eve
# >try to force G-d's hand unless someone who has a lot more knowledge in
# >these things than us (or at least me) tells us how to.  I was merely
# >talking about a hypothetical which is possible.  It is unfortunate
# >that the orignal claim I made this reply to is not around.  That
# >implicitly makes me look like some sort of "weirdo" since the correct
# >context is not being given.

#    I had written that to undertake a course of action that, in the
#    natural order of things, would lead to massive Jewish destruction
#    unless an unnatural occurence (a miracle) occurs is an unjewish
#    concept. I cited the incident of sdeh plishtim in support. 

	I would agree with the above statement absent any explicit
directive (that is halachically acceptable - something which I do not
want to go into here) to take the course of action, and unless not
taking the course of action would yield similar or worse results.

#    The relevance to the discussion is that the Kach platform, if
#    implemented, would in the natural order of things turn the
#    possibility of the world "ganging up" on Israel into a
#    certainty. Therefore, advocating the Kach platform is an
#    attempt to force the hand of God.

	I disagree with the premise.  For one thing, other countries this
century have done worse, and not only has the world let it go by, but
in some cases (population transfers after World War 2) the world actually
encouraged it because it made sense.

	Now, I have no doubt that the world might yell a lot and take
certain actions.  However, a nuclear arsenal goes a long way to
deterring other actions.

	Many of those sate to Israel already have, and are currently in
the process, of giving it their best shot anyway.

#    You (DM) replied that God has made promises that if Jews do
#    X, then God will do Y, and you asked whether I denied
#    this. I responded that accepting
#    this principle says nothing as to whether a
#    specific action (an X) is one of these divine promises.
#    I invite you to state explicitly what the divine promise
#    is, the X and the Y, that covers the Kach platform.

	I will state that the bible claims certain things like the
population being "thorns in your side" if they are not dealt with.
Now maybe the interpretation and applicability to today is wrong.
However, if it is not, then you havea case.

#    In another posting, I stated that the Kach platform was to
#    offer the resident Arabs (Israeli and non-Israeli) a status
#    where they would have no political input into government.
#    Those who would not accept this arrangement would be expelled.
#    The acceptance/expulsion would be on an indivdual basis.

#    You did not object to this description of a Kach policy,
#    but I would like to confirm that you agree that this is
#    their policy. If you don't, but you recognise what I'm
#    referring to, please post the accurate statement. If you
#    deny that there is any Kach policy that is even remotely
	[ line accidently deleted -dlm]

	To the best of my knowledge, that is a good summary of Kach's
platform.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu