HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jdymond@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Jason Dymond)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: HELP: Ontology of the Internet
Date: 25 Jul 92 07:30:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul26.074721.9064
Organization: University of Western Australia
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu


I am working on the ontology of the Internet in the philosophy dept
here, and am interested in hearing from other users as to exactly where
they conceive of the interchange of communication on the net as
taking place.

By this I don't mean the physical location of files etc. on the
hardware, but rather the notional location in terms of the "space"
being accessed on the virtual network.

Thanx

Jason.
From: thinman@netcom.com (Technically Sweet)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: A discussion update for newcomers: distributed worlds
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:17:55 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



On mip-maps: they are successively condensed versions of a pixmap.
Simple version: a coarse-grain version that's an average of (say) four
pixels, and a larger pixmap that has the rest of each pixel.  To build
higher and higher res versions of an image, you add in the successive
deltas.  Since deltas have lower ranges than the full pixel, you can
store deltas in smaller units, say 8 bits for an 24-bit pixel.

This gives a small representation of a coarse version of a pixmap, but
takes more and more work to get a larger version.  Real-time texture
mapping requires a fixed amount of time per pixel.  As a target
surface gets larger the mip-map technique requires an escalating
number of operations per pixel.

I'm against it; you should just sample the original at larger
intervals to get real-time texture mapping.  When the surface is
moving, the inaccuracy of bad sampling will be less noticeable.  When
a surface stops, you can build a better version in background as a 2D
polygon and use that for the surface since you don't have to do any
sampling in the refresh, just a 2d->2d polygon copy.  This is needed
now for doing text.

Lance
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendelton)
Subject: Re: TECH: A discussion update for newcomers: distributed worlds
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:33:38 GMT



From article <1992Jul24.051008.17131@u.washington.edu>, by
thinman@netcom.com (Technically Sweet):

> Real-time texture
> mapping requires a fixed amount of time per pixel.  As a target
> surface gets larger the mip-map technique requires an escalating
> number of operations per pixel.

You build the mulitple levels of the mip-map from the pixmap once, and
use them as often as you want. The technique is used in real time
flight simulators. It's used because it can be done in real time, and
because is gives good visual quality without the distortion caused
that results from sampling fixed texture maps.

Like I said, I don't really UNDERSTAND it. But I can see the value in
it and I've seen it's application. 

Mip-maps, and for that matter all forms or texture maps, are memory
intensive. So, I don't expect to see much use of them on small
machines.

Just to comment on the scope of the job required to define a 3D
rendering interface:

I just printed out the PEXlib draft standard. This describes and Xlib
level 3D rendering interface. The document is 462 pages of terse text.
Not far from I have a copy of Tom Gaskins' "PHIGS Programming Manual."
It is 908 pages long.

Pick something simple or be prepared to deal with this level of
complexity.

                                Bob P.

-- 
Bob Pendleton             | As an engineer I hate to hear:
bobp@hal.com              |   1) You've earned an "I told you so."
Speaking only for myself. |   2) Our customers don't do that.
                   <<< Odin, after the well of Mimir. >>>
From: spencer@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au (Greg Spencer)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: CL's VR Equipment
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:45:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul24.051354.17307
Organization: Elec Eng, Univ of Western Australia
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



Hello out there!

Does anyone have any specs on creative Labs new VR equipment, I know
that it is un-annouced but does anyone out their have any inside info
except that it exists.
From: Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: Text interfaces
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:09:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul24.050746.16915
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



In article <1992Jul22.142256.5790@cis.ohio-state.edu>
bar-zeev@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (avi bar-zeev) writes:

> As for input, when we have fast update, tactile feedback, and two
> gloves per person, a virtual keyboard with realistic action (in any
> style - manual, electric, computer, etc) might be possible, although
> it might not be practical.

There is also the possibility of a 2-d fiber keyboard (as in
Speak-n-Spell). This would require very little processor time, as the
computer would only be drawing 1 big rectangle, 128 round rectangles
and about 140 characters.

As for controling VR through text, which I think was the original point
of this thread, I think that is impossible, as much of the point of VR
is displaying more information than can possibly be assimilated using
other methods.

jeremiah
jerbl@dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: broehl@sunee.waterloo.edu (Bernie Roehl)
Subject: Re: TECH: My standard is better than your standard.
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:58:05 GMT


In article <1992Jul23.024117.11690@u.washington.edu> bobp@hal.com (Bob
Pendelton) writes:

>There are at least 3 different flavors of time involved. There is real
>time, the time that you and I experience. There is process time. The
>time that it takes to get next frame up. And there is model time. The
>time unit used in the world we are simulating.

I like this; I was wrestling a bit with the issue of time, and that
sums it up pretty clearly.

>I very well might want to require the system to present a new frame 60
>times/second and map 1 nanosecond of model time to 1 second or real
>time.

Exactly.  Just as we have a (physical) "world scale", we should have
a "world time scale".  ("In this world, one unit is one angstrom and
one time unit is one nanosecond").

>Allow the object to decide how to scale itself to the world. How else
>am I going to put a representation of myself into the insides of a
>virtual single celled animal?

Right.

        Bernie Roehl, University of Waterloo Electrical Engineering Dept
        Mail: broehl@sunee.waterloo.edu OR broehl@sunee.UWaterloo.ca
        BangPath: uunet!watmath!sunee!broehl
        Voice:  (519) 885-1211 x 2607 [work]
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: Ke-Wei Ma <km4c+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: INFO: FAQ??
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:27:13 GMT



Is there a FAQ for this bboard and if so where can I find it?  I've
been looking for schematics for a Power glove interface but was unable
to.  Exactly which issue of Byte was it posted in?

Thanks in advance.
Ke-Wei


[MODERATOR'S NOTE:  FAQ is in the archives:

        milton.u.washington.edu, public/virtual-worlds/...

The date of the powerglove stuff escapes me, it may have been Aug 91.
-- Bob Jacobson]
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendelton)
Subject: Re: TECH: My standard is better than your standard.
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:42:44 GMT



From article <1992Jul26.075023.9336@u.washington.edu>, by
s047@sand.sics.bu.oz.au (Jeremy Lee):

> Er, problem. What if I go straight from a world in which I had scaled
> myself up to galaxy size, then I zap over to another world that it at,
> as you say, the size of single cell. I've got to be able to see what I
> am doing before I re-scale myself, and before that I'm going to have all
> sorts of overflow problems due to not fitting in the world. Answer: Use
> 128 bit numbers, and "actual size" scaling. Accept no substitutions!
> ;-)

Nope, not a problem.

How do you directly to a new world? In you model of the Virtual
Universe there is no such thing anyway, just objects that chose to
associate with each other. :-)

Before you can "associate" with a group of objects you need to find
out what the group norms are. To operate with those objects you pretty
much have to accept their group norms.

So, as you step through that virtual door a flurry of protocol
messages flys back and forth as you query the local natural laws and
adapt to them. No need for you to have even be aware of the rescaling.

It all comes down to a few entries in one transformation matrix
anyway...

                        Bob P.

-- 
Bob Pendleton             | As an engineer I hate to hear:
bobp@hal.com              |   1) You've earned an "I told you so."
Speaking only for myself. |   2) Our customers don't do that.
                   <<< Odin, after the well of Mimir. >>>
From: dstamp@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Dave Stampe-Psy+Eng)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: Projecting LCD panels
Date: 19 Jul 92 13:55:15 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu


vicorp!ron@uunet.UU.NET (Ron Peterson) writes:

>>I have heard that it is possible to project the
>>image from a LCD panel (such as that found in a pocket TV) by integrating
>>it with a slide projector and adding a cooling fan. Has anyone tried this?

> Heat is a problem because some lcds are sensitive to it.  Mine tended
>    to fade to blank after about half an hour, after which I had to let
>    it cool for a few minutes to get the image to reappear.

Commercial models usually have an infrared filter between the lamp and
the panel, and a carefully designed airflow cooling system for the panel.
Even with this, it's hard to keep the contrast high.  LCDs have a VERY
narrow operating temperature range.

>You can buy B&W lcd panels made to sit on top of overhead projectors.

Also color ones.  The problem with the color panels is that they tend
to be VERY dark: the TFT technology, while fast, block a lot of light.
I've used TFT panels which need a 15 W flourescent backlight: enough
to light a small room, but the image is only fairly well lit.

>Also, some (all? the ones Radio Shack sells anyway) of the lcd tv's 
>today seem to use a different type of lcd and so are constructed
>without a backlight.  If they can be backlit it means cutting a hole
>in the case of the tv (at the least) or rearranging its internal
>components when removed from the case (at worst.)

Non-backlit panels (with mirrors) CANNOT be made transmissive with 
good results.  Problem is the way the optics (mirrors and polarizers)
are set up.  Of course, if you really want to wreck a couple experimenting
and add your own polarizers...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| My life is Hardware,                    |                              | 
| my destiny is Software,                 |         Dave Stampe          |
| my CPU is Wetware...                    |                              | 
| Anybody got a SDB I can borrow?         | dstamp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca |
__________________________________________________________________________
From: snoswell@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Snoswell)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: Text interfaces
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:56:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul26.074258.8480
Organization: Information Technology Division, The University of Adelaide, AUSTR
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



bar-zeev@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (avi bar-zeev) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>There may be a better way, though. I don't remember if it was this
>group or comp.human-factors which was talking about using Sign
>language in VR.  I don't know the current state of gesture
>recognition, though.

This reminds me of the city in Eon and Infinity by Greg Bear where
many people existed as virtual entities within the central computer.
Most communication was done using coloured glyphs projected into space
between two discussing parties. But I think it comes down to being
able to convey alot of information by a simple symbol, ie data
compression, which in this type of case depends on a great deal of
shared knowledge. A few simple symbols could be very handy though, in
much the same way as we use icons in a traditional GUI. Here however,
the icons are used structurally to convey information, rather than
being discrete static items. But is this much easier than using words,
maybe with a global library for the 256 most common words?


>Then again, there's always speech recognition...

>Avi

Cheers
        Michael Snoswell
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Snoswell                         snoswell@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au  
  Vision Systems Limited                   +61 8 343 0462  
  South Australia                          "Profound quote"
From: hawkwind@foretune.co.jp
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: ADMIN: (1) The new newsgroup and (2) 4 days of quiet!
Date: 27 Jul 92 01:32:56 GMT
Organization: Foretune Co., Ltd.
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



>SCI.VIRTUAL-WORLDS.APPS
>-----------------------
>
>This is a Request for Discussion concerning a proposed newsgroup,
>
>                    sci.virtual-worlds.apps
>
>for the discussion of pending and actual applications of virtual
>worlds technology in industrial, commercial, educational, and
>entertainment settings.

Great Idea, Bob!

until again,
Roe Adams
Tokyo
From: billc@Apple.COM (Bill Cockayne)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: TECH: Macintosh VR clearinghouse
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:26:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul23.180605.26042
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



Many of you may remember that I asked for ALL info on Macintosh VR
about 6 months ago...well I lost everything that was sent to me.

I am again collecting ANY AND ALL info that people have on programs,
interfaces, papers, et al done on vr on the Macintosh.

I am have volunteered to do Mac work on the CyberTerm project and am
looking around to see what I may be able to integrate into a 1.x
release of the Mac terminal.

As I screwed up last time and lost all the data (not all but all the
good stuff) I am going to keep it all in a public site on
ftp.apple.com.

PLEASE send me anything you or someone you know has done or wants to
do with VR and I will make sure to archive it. If it seems like
something that would be useful in the public knowledge I will contact
you to see if I can put it on ftp.apple.com.

thanx

bill cockayne
Apple Computer, Inc.
net: billc@apple.com

disclaimer: I am not speaking for or as a representative of Apple Computer. This
information is not being collected for any projects occurring at the
aforementioned company.
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: asklingl@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Andreas Klingler)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: SEGA light guns
Date: 27 Jul 92 12:29:07 GMT
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen, Germany
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz) writes:

>In article <dZR-rLB@engin.umich.edu>
>bovine@engin.umich.edu (Mitchell Rohde) writes:

>>   Sega light "phasers" : are they good for anything?
>>   What is in them?  How did they work?
>> 
>>   I can buy one surplus here for about $10.....

>My thoughts:
>I think that the photo-thingie is a photo-resistor. It either acts
>differently when exposed to different frequencies or amplitudes of
>light. The controlles sends the gun various colors/brightnesses of
>light to watch for. When you pull the trigger, the gun opens the circut
>that goes through the photo-resistor, and the resistor sends back a
>signal to the gun board. If the amprege is the one associated with one
>of the colors/brightnesses that the deck requested, the gun sends a
>signal to the deck.

Well, usually it's much easier (for the gun :-) ).

Due to the lens the gun 'sees' only a few pixels from the screen.
Whenever the electronbeam in the monitor makes these pixels light up
the gun sends a trigger signal to the computer. Since the video
controller in the computer knows which position on the screen it was
currently writing it knows now also where you are pointing the gun at.

Of course the computers hardware must support reading out the beam
position to use this (the Amiga does). If it does not, there is still
a way: Glue a photo-whatever to the upper left corner of the monitor.
You can then measure the time between the corner-trigger and the
light-gun trigger to find where you are pointing at. But I doubt this
is very accurate.

Andreas Klingler
asklingl@informatik.uni-erlangen.de
       I'd love to help you out... Which way did you come in?
From: billc@Apple.COM (Bill Cockayne)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: TECH: VR CAD systems
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:54:29 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



Can anyone please send me a list of all existing VR CAD systems at 
universities or companies?

I am especially interested in anyone who is doing this as an experiment in
CAD systems as opposed to an experiment in VR systems.

thanx
bill cockayne
billc@apple.com

[MODERATOR'S NOTE:  To my knowledge there is no such list.  If Bill and
those who work with him wouldn't mind, if you do compile such a list from
email sent here, please share it with sci.virtual-worlds.  Thanks. --
Bob Jacobson]
From: jwt!bbs-airwick@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Eric Van Hensbergen)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: TECH: Text interfaces
Date: 19 Jul 92 15:21:37 GMT
Organization: The Matrix
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



Not to diminish any of the great discussions on graphics and hardware,
but I have a question to purpose.  In my own research and study of VR,
I have yet to come across proposals for "nice" text interfaces with
the environment.  That is to say, that even though primary interaction
with VR environments will be pointer related (tracking systsmes, mice,
joysticks, gloves, etc), there will undoubtably be the need for some
text input.  How does everone propose to accomodate for this in their
designs??

Certainly a nice text window system that overlays itself on the
environment would do the trick, but it seems to me that this would
play nasty tricks on both speed and on the shutter glasses.

Effectively, it would seem we would need to shut down the environment
(at least from the users' perspective) whenever he needed to give
input from the keyboard (I believe this is how REND386 handles text
i/o).  Is there any way around this????

(Of course there is always Gibson's method of unmarked keyboards and perfect
typists, but that would restrict alot of us from the VR interface. :)

-------------------------
Eric Van Hensbergen
airwick@nick.csh.rit.edu
VR Learning Systems Development
Computer Science House
Rochester Institute of Technology
-------------------------
From: plains!kmagel@uunet.UU.NET (ken magel)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: BOOK: Consciousness Explained
Date: 25 Jul 92 21:07:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Jul26.074851.9150
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



  In Daniel Dennett's book COnsciousness Explained, he claims that human beings
will never be fooled by computers, no matter how powerful those computers
eventually become.  This seems unrealistic?  Therefore, if we assume that
eventually computers will be capable of providing virtual worlds which can 
include interactions which fool the human beings interacting in the world, 
what would be the ethics involved in such a situation?  Under what circumstances
should a virtual world be established which provides incorrect experiences 
to human beings who use it when those humans cannot determine that the experienc
es
 are incorrect?  Further, if the virtual world is sufficiently detailed, how 
will humans be able to distinguish what they do in that world from what they 
do in the "real"  world?  
Will it matter that they cannot?
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
From: bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendelton)
Subject: Re: BOOK: Consciousness Explained
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 21:23:48 GMT



From article <1992Jul26.074851.9150@u.washington.edu>, by
plains!kmagel@uunet.UU.NET (ken magel):

>   In Daniel Dennett's book COnsciousness Explained, he claims that human 
> beings
> will never be fooled by computers, no matter how powerful those computers
> eventually become.  This seems unrealistic?  Therefore, if we assume that
> eventually computers will be capable of providing virtual worlds which can 
> include interactions which fool the human beings interacting in the world, 
> what would be the ethics involved in such a situation?  Under what 
> circumstances
> should a virtual world be established which provides incorrect experiences 
> to human beings who use it when those humans cannot determine that the 
> experiences
> are incorrect?  Further, if the virtual world is sufficiently detailed, how 
> will humans be able to distinguish what they do in that world from what they 
> do in the "real"  world?  
> Will it matter that they cannot?

This all assumes that there is an either/or relationship between
virtual reality and real reality. I can see the possibility of a
blurring of that distinction. Imagine a head mounted display that
includes a pair (at least) a pair of video cameras mounted toward the
front of the display and microphones to pick up the local sound
background. Add in the ability to use video cameras scattered about in
real space to track the location and movement of real world objects.

(Admittedly, this requires lots of bandwidth and compute power,
but...)

You then have the possibility of the mixing virtual input
with real input. You even have the possibiility of mapping real things
into virtual things. 

You make make your boss look like a little green troll, or a giant
dragon. You could also accept his version of his appearance (God like,
of course:-) or see him as he really is.

Would you know which is real and which is virtual? Sometimes. But not
always.

Virtual reality/real reality, is not an either or sort of thing.

                                Bob P.



-- 
Bob Pendleton             | As an engineer I hate to hear:
bobp@hal.com              |   1) You've earned an "I told you so."
Speaking only for myself. |   2) Our customers don't do that.
                   <<< Odin, after the well of Mimir. >>>
From: dstamp@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Dave Stampe-Psy+Eng)
Newsgroups: sci.virtual-worlds
Subject: Re: TECH: SEGA light guns
Date: 23 Jul 92 04:15:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: watserv1.BrtqI8.DFy
Organization: University of Waterloo
Originator: hlab@milton.u.washington.edu



bovine@engin.umich.edu (Mitchell Rohde) writes:

>  Sega light "phasers" : are they good for anything?
>  What is in them?  How did they work?
>
>  I can buy one surplus here for about $10.....

Unfortunately, they're pretty useless.  They have a lens, a switch, a
phototransistor, and an AC amplifier and detector.  Basically, they
simply look to see if they're pointed at a bright, dark, or flickering
spot on the screen.  Not the new "light bazookas" (well, that's what
they look like) can use the timing of the spot to really locate where
on the screen they're pointed.  But I haven't dissected one yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| My life is Hardware,                    |                              | 
| my destiny is Software,                 |         Dave Stampe          |
| my CPU is Wetware...                    |                              | 
| Anybody got a SDB I can borrow?         | dstamp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca |
__________________________________________________________________________