HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Subject: RE: god, i'm immature
Organization: Fordham University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:09:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <30SEP92.17510458@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes.
.

[stuff deleted]
> 
>The palindromic last names are: Harrah, Salas, and Otto.  Now if we
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>can only convince Dave Otto to name his kid Otto B. Otto, or something
>like that,  we'll be on the right track.
> 
>Heather
>HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

Also: Nen

Dick Nen, 1B (Richard LeRoy Nen, 1963 Dodgers, also Cubs and Senators later) 
He hit a crucial 9th-inning pinch-hit home run against the Cardinals in a 
late season game; the Dodgers and Cardinals were in a pennant race that year.
His HR tied the game, and the Dodgers went on to win in extra innings, and 
win the World Series eventually.  

P.S. Dick Nen came to Old Timer's Day this July 5 in Dodger Stadium.  I was 
one of few people there who remembered him (judging from the applause). 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Sheffield is NL MVP
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:02:10 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.211553.24079@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.151212.2535@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>>It might be pointed out that Detroit's lineup is not exactly ideal. The 
>>numbers 3 and 4 hitters have relatively low OBPs (in fact, Detroit's #3 slot
>>has the #11 overall OPS production in the league), yet they still have the 
>>best offense. And no, the OPS of the leadoff slot is not that high; about 4th
>>or 5th in the league. #2 and #5 are very high, both actually and in comparison
>>to the league. How smart does THAT look?

>Well, for #1 and #2, you are supposed to have high *OBPs* and not necessarily
>high *OPS'*.  (If you put a big slugger #1, you are making a big mistake.)
>And no one can argue with Tony Phillips' .391 OBP and Lou Whitaker's .391 OBP.

And Fryman's OBP and SLG are relatively low, and certainly lower than Whitaker's
and Tettleton's in both areas. And as for the mentioned Milwaukee team, 
THEIR OBP and SLG's don't look that clever compared to Baltimore's lineup.

>>Actually, the way Mr Thornley explained it is correct; ROUGHLY, SLG and OBP
>>are approximately of equal importance to scoring. The "fact" that 1 pt of
>>OBP is "worth more" than 1 pt of SLG is an aritfact of the way they are 
>>measured, and not due to any intrinisic value beyond that. As it happens now,

>The problem here is, SLG left out a part that OBP does have that *should* have
>*some* slugging value; the walk.  Walks moves some runners, and RC gives walks
>.26 of a single in that component, which sounds about right.

?? This doesn't address the statement at all. And if you're looking at 
"problems", it might be pointed out that OBP gives exactly the same weight
to HR as to walks.

>>Then why don't you use it properly? None of these are hard-coded numbers, and
>>there is a LOT of room to manuever. SLG apparantly CAN make up for lower 
>>(relative to another team) OBP, as can speed, etc.
>
>Of course it can.  But if two players have the same OPS but different OBP and
>SLG, you should take the higher OBP, unless it's an extreme case like a taller
>version of Eddie Gaedel.

Nope. Way too many exceptions (even at the team level) to make a statement like
that. I'd take a guy that matched my team's needs the best.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:15:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.173858.3022@unixg.ubc.ca> stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis) writes:
>In Sunday's game, Morris pitched 4+ innings and then had to sit 2 hours
>for a rain delay.  He had a 9-run lead at the time (but why penalize him
>for this??).  He returned to finish the 5th and then pitched the 6th, giving
>up 0 runs, 0 ERs, 3 hits and 1 walk.  Morris wins his 20th and he did it in
>New York.  His ERA is now 3.99.

Another perfect example of how Morris "pitches to the score".  He gets
a nine run lead, and so throws six shutout innings.  (In other words,
he no more pitches to the score than any other pitcher in baseball.
He just gets a lot more runs to work with.)

>Has anyone noticed that Morris has only been allowing a BA of .204 at home?
>The Skydome is a hitters ballpark and he is allowing only .204!!

Yeah, this *is* a bit weird.  He did something like this in the
Twinkiedome too, which is also a hitter's park.  Maybe he doesn't
weather the road trips well.  Because his overall Opp.BA, while
decent, is *nowhere* *near* that good.  (197 hits in 211.2 IP through
9/13).

>Jack is in the top ten in BA against against righty hitting.

Again, while he hasn't been bad overall, he hasn't been particularly
great either.  He must have trouble against lefties.

>Should the Jays make the playoffs, Morris is candidate #1 to be
>starting Game 1 at the Skydome.

Morris has already been announced as the game-1 starter.  Cito is
fiddling with his pitching schedule to get Morris in.  We'll see how
it works out.

>Morris is not a very hittable pitcher and this is
>what makes him one of the best pitchers.  

He doesn't give up a lot of hits, but he *does* give up a lot of HRs,
a lot of BBs, has fairly few Ks (at this point in his career), and
serves up a fair number of runs.  You don't normally consider pitchers
with a ~4.00 ERA for the Cy Young.

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: daveshao@leland.stanford.edu (David Shao)
Subject: Why bother to watch the World Series?
Originator: daveshao@leland.Stanford.EDU
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 17:52:40 GMT

Of all the major sports in the United States, major league baseball
has the most illogical and capricious system of determining home
field advantage in the playoffs.  Since 1987, starting with the
Twins, the team with both the home field advantage in the LCS and
the World Series has won the championship.  

The home field advantage is assigned in the following fixed order:

This year
LCS                       World Series
American League   East
National League   West    NL West

Next year
LCS
American League   West    AL West
National League   East
 
etc...

Without even noticing what the teams did this season, all I have to
know is that the Braves won their division in order for me to predict
with confidence that they will win the World Series.  

In fact, under the current system, at the beginning of the season
I can dismiss three-quarters of the teams from consideration.  And
one half of major league baseball teams (the eastern divisions) have
no realistic expectation of ever winning another World Series.

How was the decision made to implement the current rotation?  I find
it hard to believe that at least one of the owners of an eastern
division team didn't notice the disparity and alert the others.

I'm also surprised that teams don't seem to be taking the rotation
into consideration  when making decisions such as whether to pursue
expensive free agents or whether to rebuild with youth.  One
example is the A's trade with the Cardinals two years ago of
Felix Jose for Willie McGee.  Since the National League West had
the home field advantage that year in the World Series, the A's
should have given up on the season and played Jose, hoping that
he could contribute the NEXT season when they had a chance.
Another example is the A's trade this year of Canseco for Sierra.
Since the A's will not be able to both retain McGwire and Sierra,
in effect they will enter next season with one less superstar. 

As next season can be predicted to be the year of the AL West,
it would be very foolish for the Twins to let Puckett go.  I
think they should pay him some astronomical amount for one season,
say $7-8 million, and then make a decision whether the current team
can win in 1995 or whether they should dump the older players and
rebuild.  Similarly, next year is the year for the White Sox to
pursue through free agency a player who can put them over the top.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 07:48:42 EDT
From: <KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Which team is most improved???
Distribution: usa
 <mlbruce.718003804@husc8>

  One huge vote for the Orioles being the most improved.  They are going to
finish with at least 87 wins (after only winning 67 last season) and they
did it without appreciable contribution from their 3 and 4 hitters, Ripken
and Davis.  To those who said the O's won't improve much, I beg to differ.
If Ripken and Davis have average years next season (and let me be the first
to predict that Cal will be back stronger next year, he spent the entire winter
last year on the banquet circuit, a problem he won't have this year, so he will
rest and work on his game) and Devereaux continues to improve (which he has
done every season since wearing the Orange and Black) then the O's will be
playing in mid-October.  But this season they have to get the most improved
team in the American League with Montreal getting it in the National league.
Kevin
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1992's MLB Award Winners
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:56:43 GMT
Organization: Wayne State University Math Department, Detroit

In article <rfd2001-041092224649@m248-104.bgsu.edu> rfd2001@andy.bgsu.edu (Ryan Dickey) writes:
>
>My thoughts:
>
>AL MVP: Dennis Eckersley
>AL CY YOUNG: Dennis Eckersley

I'm really getting sick of this.  I don't care how good he is, the guy
has only pitched ~70 innings.  He has saved his team about 25 runs,
which just doesn't compare with Thomas, etc.

>AL Rookie :Kenny Lofton

Pat Listach has had pretty much the same season, but plays a more
demanding defensive position.

>AL Comeback:Mark McGwire

No arguments here.

>NL MVP:Barry Bonds

Fine.

>NL CY Young:Tom Glavine

Madduz is much more deserving.  I've discussed that before, and so have
many others so I won't repeat it here.

>MLB best hitter:Gary Sheffield

If Sheffield is the best hitter, how the heck is he not MVP?  Sure
Bonds has some base-stealing value, but Sheffield has much more defnsive
value than Bonds.  Bonds is far and away the best hitter, and although I
would pick him for MVP it isn't as clear.

>MLB overrated player:Eric Davis

Cecil Fielder.

>MLB underrated player:Edgar Martinez

Agreed.

>Who would you hire for a franchise player:Barry Bonds

Why Bonds?  Griffey Jr. and Thomas are almost at his level right now,
and they're 5-6 years younger.  Alomar also deserves consideration for
this award.


--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Better than Runs
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:28:40 GMT
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-24180]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu

In article <1992Sep28.165426.929@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes...
>In article <92272.091051IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>  Bunched runs are not worth _quite_ as much as single runs,
>>because they _intrinsically_ tend to come in games you'll
>>win anyway.  This is less important in the higher-scoring
>>Apostatic League, but still an important effect.
> 
>I'm not sure I understand this statement.  Are you really saying that
>scoring a single run in an inning is more valuable than scoring three runs
>in the inning?

	I read it as saying that scoring 1 run in each of three different
innings is worth more then scoring 3 runs in one inning.  I'm not sure
I'd support that statement, but, it is how I read it.

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________
From: rlopez@loanstar.tamu.edu (Robert Lopez)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cal Eldred: what does the future hold?
Keywords: eat more rookie moose
Date: 30 Sep 92 21:30:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: tamsun.1992Sep30.213051.14775
Organization: The Hosequarium South

In article <1992Sep30.193516.16705@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, franjion@spot.Colorado.EDU (John Franjione) writes:
|> Well, Cal Eldred won his 10th game in a row last night against the
|> Mariners.  Eldred is now 11-1 with an ERA of about 1.40 or so.
|> 
|> What is the historical precedent for such a performance?  What other
|> pitchers have come up in mid-season and pitched this well?  Based on
|> these pitchers, what can we expect from Cal in the future?
|> 
|> The last pitcher coming up and appearing this god-like that I can
|> remember is Calvin Schiraldi 1986.  And we all know what happened to
|> him.
|> 

The problem is that Cal only went around the league once.  He might
get shelled when some of these players see him again.  Of course, 
since we are talking about next year, it might be his second cycle
NEXT year before it happens, but it probably WILL happen.  

Oh, let's see what happens to Tim Wakefield next year...I'm more interested
in that - I HATE the way he pitches.  What I mean is, I like his
record, but I don't like watching him.  His motion is very blah.
Guess it helps his knuckler.

I want to go on record as being completely and totally WRONG about
Glavine locking up the CY last month.  Nope.  Maddux has a hell of a
shot.  Tewk won't get it, but I like him.

The American League is jumbled too.  By the Mark Davis rule (hard to
see a single standout starter), Eck will probably take it.  I want him
as MVP.  Sure will be a boring offseason if he takes both.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert E. L\'{o}pez       |       Internet:
Texas LoanSTAR Program    |       rlopez@loanstar.tamu.edu
The Hosequarium South     |       rlopez@cs.tamu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------
                 Texas A&M University 
                   boohoo.onyou.edu
----------------------------------------------------------
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lighten up!(and Cy Young)
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:29:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: pegasus.steph.718324194
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

In <25943@oasys.dt.navy.mil> kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat) writes:
[snip]
>Now for the baseball commentary:
>Mussina for Cy Young....18-5......5 leads blown by relief pitching...
>3 of those were in the ninth inning.  Also his team rarely scored more
>than three runs. He had a few 2-1 3-2 losses. If someone has his run
>support stat, I'd be interested.  

McWeekly (9/30) has his run support at 4.85 R/9, which is a lot closer to
Morris than Abbot.  (Clemens is at 4.23)

>Morris.....ya kiddin' me ERA above
>4.5......

Somebody is kidding you. It was at 3.99, so unless he was really shelled
in his last start...

>Eckersley only pitched in 80 or so innings...Give Eck the MVP
>not the Cy Young

80 innings of effort is valuable enough for an MVP, but not good enough
for a Cy Young.  I have a hard time understanding this thinking.

>.....Clemens....well...He's a Red Sox and I'm an O's
>fan....(What is the singular of Red Sox...Red Sock?).....

Red Sok, of course :->.
--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Lead off walks....
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:00:14 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Sep30.233148.1297@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>In article <GRABINER.92Sep30183837@germain.harvard.edu>, grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep30.153621.1287@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z writes:

>>> 	Okay, time for bad-but-possible-explaination-time:

>>> 	The avergae pitcher gives up a hit an inning. If a pitcher gives
>>> up a single to lead off the inning, there is a good chance there won't
>>> be another hit that inning. OTOH, if the pitcher leads off yeilding a
>>> walk, the batting team still has that hit they are likely to pick up
>>> later in the inning.

>> This is the gambler's fallacy.  The chance that a coin will land heads
>> does not depend on the previous flip.  Likewise, the chance that a team
>> will get a hit in the current inning does not depend on what happened in
>> the earlier part of the inning.

>	No, it is not gambler's fallacy; the chance of a team getting two hits
>in an inning is less than the chance of them getting one hit in an inning.

Exactly -- this is the gambler's fallacy in its pure form.  Yes, the
chance of getting two hits is smaller -- but the team doesn't NEED two hits!
It only needs one, because it already HAS one.   The conditional probability
of two hits total, GIVEN that there's already been one, is HIGHER than
the raw probability of getting one, as we know from split-stats.

See the example with the bomb in the suitcase.


Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (Joe "Almost a dad" Lundy)
Subject: Re: Expos logo
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:44:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.220550.26845@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep28.181906.861@mala.bc.ca> epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) writes:
|> >In article <CB.92Sep28173954@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris  Brewster"'s millions") writes:

|> It's in fact a capital M, with a lower case "e" and then a lower case "b",
|> for Montreal Expos baseball.

This is incorrect.  The "ELB" on the Montreal Expos' cap stands for (and
pardon my French) "Exposition Le Beau", in celebration of Expo '67 in Montreal.

I stated before on this thread that it does not stand for "Elvis Loves 
Baseball", "Everyone Likes Bateman" (Expansion Expos' catcher), "ELBow
macaroni", or "Expos: Lousy Baseball"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Lundy           Encore Computer Corporation, 6901 W. Sunrise Blvd.    |
| jlundy@encore.com   Mail Stop 811, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  33313-4499         |
| "Marlins.  Not just a fish, a silvery teal mascot"			    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AL ROY: More Fuel for Debate
Date: 28 Sep 92 05:24:48 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Sep28.041820.11018@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>Same as the NL post.

>Pat Listach, Milwaukee		36.1
>Kenny Lofton, Cleveland	22.5

Given that Cal Eldred has pitched 86 1/3 innings with 13 RA,
he has been just about 30 runs better than an average
pitcher (average starter runs against is just over 4.5/game
in the AL this year; (86 1/3 IP / 9)  * 4.5 R/game = 43;
43 runs expected - 13 runs allowed = 30 runs).

I think he should get a lot of consideration.  I'd
rank him #2 behind Listach.  Listach is a good offensive SS
who is decent defensively, playing full-time for a contender.
He's been more valuable than the part-time Eldred, but not by much.



-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Morris: more fuel for this debate
Date: 4 Oct 92 15:18:56 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

i think that a simple study could be done...

determine the number of times that morris pitched, was BEHIND in the score,
 and came back to get a W.  and then do that for  each of the teams
 who have roughly the same winning percentage as the jays (brewers,
 pirates, a's, braves).

although it's a small sample size, it will give a rough idea if jack  gets
 some sort of lucky breaks.  also, a different way to approach the
 same topic...

what was the average difference in runs scored when morris pitched?  
 and in other comparable teams?  if, for instance, morris' games were
 all 1 run differences, and the average was 2.5 (i mean when he won,
 not when he lost - you'd have to do that seaparetly), then we could
 conclude something.  it won't show up that way, i'm sure, but
 maybe it would keep peopole quieter.

on a final note, who made the last out yesterday for the tigers?
 bases loaded, pressure situation?  oh yeah, mr. clutch.  dan gladden.

- bob gaj
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Sheffield is NL MVP
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:47:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.171110.20018@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>In <17596@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> fzchen@othello.ucdavis.edu writes:
>
>>In article <1992Sep25.021254.29808@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep24.185443.6675@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>And, since OBP is more valuable than SLG, Caminiti's higher OBP wins out.
>
>>This is why I quit sabremetrics.
>
>You quit sabermetrics?  I don't think you can do that.  My guess is that
>you were fired, and you just don't want to admit it.  

You might want to take a look at this year's AL, before you flame this guy.

>  Who says OBP is more important than 
>>SLG???!!!

>Oh, about 100 years of baseball teams who increase their run production
>more by gaining 5 points of OBP than by gaining 5 points of SLG.  

For confirmation, see this year's Detroit and Baltimore teams.

>But I guess 100 years of baseball isn't more important than your
>preconceived ideas.

(through Sept 21)
Baltimore .342 OBP, .402 SLG, 651 runs
Detroit   .336 OBP, .407 SLG, 724 runs

Who exactly has "preconceived" ideas here? (though I will admit, technically
you are correct; it wasn't 5 points of OBP, it was 6)

>  I think Caminiti vs. Pendleton is simple.  Poll the GM's and
>>managers of both leagues and ask who they would want on their team if
>>either could be had at the same salary...Caminiti.  Not!

>That's good.  If the GMs actually picked Caminiti, I might want Pendleton.
>But seeing that these are the same group of GMs that pursued Storm Davis
>because of his W-L record and include at least one GM that traded Ken Hill
>for Andres Galaragga, it assures me that my pick of Caminiti (for 1992) 
>would be right.

Not to mention that at least one GM awarded a mutli-year, multi-million $$
contract to a 28 year-old, injury-prone catcher with a career OPS of ~.670
(Daulton). Or picked up a 29 year-old journeyman pitcher and decided to hand 
him the ball every 4th or 5th game (Stewart). Yep, really stupid, those GMs.

Mike

-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball