HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tpd1@cec2.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:24:41 GMT

In article <1ar9poINN924@agate.berkeley.edu> sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut) writes:
>
> How about Enosis?  Isn't it based on Megali Idea? Although, today people

	I don't think so. "Enosis" was the desire of 82% of the population of 
the island to unify with Greece and not vice versa (which is "Megali Idea").

>do not talk much about it, it didn't disappear yet. During Papandreu's
>visit, lots of 'Enosis' slogans were heard. Also, what does 'pan-Hellenic'
>mean? And why 'Hellen-ism' frequently means 'Greeks'?
>
	Well, that's an easy one. Because 'Hellenism' does not "frequently"
means 'Greeks'; it is the SAME thing. From Webster's dictionary:
	Hel-len-ic: of or relating to Greece, its people or its language.
	Hel-len-ism : Greek civilization.
>
> Sadi Turgut
>
Regards,
Theodore David
****************************************************************************
* Washington University in St. Louis, School of Engineering, CS/EE         *
* E-mail : tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu,  cyprus@maria.wustl.edu                    *
* Phone #: (314) - 935 - 1221                                              *
****************************************************************************
* * * * * * * *   CYPRUS IN THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY  * * * * * * * * 
****************************************************************************
From: teoman@carson.u.washington.edu (Teoman Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: A German in Greece
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:53:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct6.005328.29128
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Sep28.100018.11218@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras) writes:
>In <9209271820.AA17479@sungate.icsmac.com> gunther.neuberger@icsmac4.icsmac.COM (GUNTHER NEUBERGER) writes:
>
>
>
>>I was in Greece two months ago.Me and my girlfriend visited some Greek
>>islands which were wonderful but one thing really bothered me.
>>The sentence,"Macedonia is Greek" was written on almost everything I saw.
>>They had even written this sentence on the walls of public restrooms,
>>on the closets and doors of these restrooms.
>>It seemed as if whomever I met in Greece was more than eager to say
>>something bad about Macedonia and Turkey.
>>I have also visited Turkey.Before we flew to Istanbul,many Greeks warned
>>me to be careful about my girlfriend!.After being in Istanbul we realized
>>how silly and wrong this warning was.I really don't know why Greeks
>>behave like this?
>
>Simple. Greeks live there. Tourists don't. It is quite normal
>that you don't remember/know what has happened in the area
>during the last 100 years. Quite natural. It is like a Greek not knowing
>of any Chech fear about the old Sudettenland. So my friend, why bother?
>Have fun, while it lasts!
>

so a place and the people's attitudes don't change in your eyes... 
what happened in the past will always occur.. Is that how your logic
works? :)

Teo

>_____________________________________________________________________________
>>|  Gunther Neuberger                         |  
>Regards
>
>Panayotis
>
>--
>UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
>Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
>JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
>Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
>FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
>Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
From: sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic (was Re: Understanding...)
Date: 6 Oct 1992 05:56:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <schoinas.717913772@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:
>Well, don't compare apples with oranges. If you want to understand
>the evolvement of "Megalh Idea" and it's role in the politics of the
>Greek state, you can find quite enough material. But for start I could
>point out, that there was a numerous greek population in Asia minor
>while there was never any significant turkish population in Dodekanhssa.
>The exchange of populations in 1922 was the end of the role of "Megalh Idea" 
>in greek politics.

 How about Enosis?  Isn't it based on Megali Idea? Although, today people
do not talk much about it, it didn't disappear yet. During Papandreu's
visit, lots of 'Enosis' slogans were heard. Also, what does 'pan-Hellenic'
mean? And why 'Hellen-ism' frequently means 'Greeks'?

 I don't know how wide-spread the territorial dreams toward Asia Minor
is, but it exists. And it certainly has roots in Megali Idea. And, if
one wants to evaluate 'Turkish Claims', it should be seen in an equivalent
light with the 'Greek Claims.'

>						Yannis.

 Sadi Turgut

-- 
  The Greeks have survived in spite of all the world could
do against them, and all they could do against themselves.
              --Sir Winston Churchill
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The Balkan Wars
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:05:49 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.


In article <vassil.717087635@cs.wisc.edu> vassil@mary-ann.cs.wisc.edu
(Vassil Peytchev) writes:

>No one denies that it was Bulgaria who started BW2, and that it was a
grave
>mistake. However, I have a question here (maybe to Milan): Did Bulgaria
>before May-June 1913 fulfill her obligations as an ally to Greece and Serbia?

There was an obligation that Bulgaria and Serbia (probably the same with
Greece) should help each other when the 'other' side wants help. I don't
know if and what Serbia wanted and Bulgaria didn't do. However, when Bulgaria
required some help and troops from Serbia for the siege of Odrin, such were
provided. Later, because of the unexpected gains in Thrace and the gain of
Odrin by the Bulgarians (this wasn't in the initial plans of the war), Serbia
asked for compensation - can't remember exatly but it was the contested
zone and maybe even more. The point is that the spheres of interests
between Serbia and Greece in Macedonia didn't go into conflict, which made
the partition of Macedonia between them without any problem. It's a pity
that the self-confidence of the Bulgarian rulers preveiled over the far
better option for some diplomatic negotiations. It's useless to say that
had Roumania not enter BW2, it's outcome wasn't certain at all.

>Regards,
>
>Vassil

Likewise

Luben
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9495 soc.culture.bulgaria:1475
From: af501@city.ac.uk (CONSTANTINIDES C A)
Subject: Zavarakatranemia
Organization: The City University
Distribution: soc.culture.greek
Date:  5 Oct 92 13:38:55 GMT

'Zavarakatranemia'    '..oti den katafere na pei mexri shmera
                       o an0rwpos'  -Nikos 3ulourhs


Kwnstantinos A. Kwnstantinidhs

[yg]
Mia pou'sai panremenos me Kupria, kala einai na 3ereis oti
kai oi Kuprioi Ellhnes einai, epomenws to 'Ellhnwn kai Kupriwn'
einai nohmatika la0os.

[yg2]
Gia des kairo pou diale3an na mas baloun sto UseNet...twra pou
feugw...
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 26 Sep 92 20:41:27 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <schoinas.717444176@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

[deleted]

>>True. I was amazed that in Greece there are Trotskuites but if their fight
>>is an ideological one only - that should be OK. 
>
>I can't see why. You will find in Greece supporters of every leftist
>deviation that you can think of.

My point was that the 'Communist world' had 'exposed' Trotskuites as 'bad'
and there were almost no of them in that world. And in the West, from what
I know, communist ideas declined rapidly after 1956. Nothing wrong - just
curiosity.

>						Yannis.

Luben
Newsgroups: soc.human.rights,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
From: sebr@iro.umontreal.CA (Sebastien Racine *Rocker*)
Subject: Greek justice towards a Jehovah Witness.
Keywords: Human rights,Greece, religious discrimination
Organization: Universite de Montreal
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:01:11 GMT


     Hi,

     I heard that public advocation of religions in 
     Greece was strictly prohibited according to a 
     law (1939). Greek Orthodox church is allowed to 
     make propoganda of any kind, on the other hand 
     any public activity of other religious branches 
     is strictly prohibited. Yesterday I have learned 
     that a friend of mine working for our organization 
     in Greece was prosecuted because of his religious 
     beliefs. We, Jehovahs' Witnesses strongly protest this 
     behaviour of the Greek government. While allowing TV 
     programs and prayers for orthodox church but 
     prohibiting other religious TV programs, talking 
     about democracy is useless.

     We strongly protest such a law in an EC country 
     which must be assumed to be democratic. 
     Why was Greece accepted to the EC, anyway?

     My best regards,
     ---
     SR
From: dimitri@cui.unige.ch (Dimitri Konstantas)
Subject: Wanted: Easter algorithms
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 22:37:46 GMT

Some time ago the Orthodox Easter algorithm was posted in the newsgroup.
Does anybody has the Catholic Easter algorithm?

Please send any reply directly to me and I will forward it to anybody who
might ask.

Thanks for the help :-)
dimitri

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dimitri Konstantas                      | 
Centre Universitaire d' Informatique	| EARN   : dimitri@cgeuge51.bitnet
University of Geneva 			| e-mail : dimitri@cui.unige.ch
24 rue du General-Dufour		| Teleph.: +41 (22) 705 7647
CH-1211 Geneva 4, SWITZERLAND 		| Fax	 : +41 (22) 320 2927
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re:  REQUEST:  Hippocratic Oath in Greek
Keywords: Hippocrates, Asklepios, Hygiene
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:11:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

In article <BvMt7y.100@cs.columbia.edu>, ji@cs.columbia.edu
(John Ioannidis) writes:
>In article <1992Oct4.101541.28350@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>>>
>>>Ou dwsw de oude farmakon oudeni aith8eis 8avasimon oude ufhfhsomai
>>>3umboulihn toihnde. Omoiws de oude gunaiki pesson f8orion dwsw.
>>>Agnws de kai osiws diathrhsw bion emon kai texnhn emhn.
>>>
>>>(I will never give a deadly medicine, even if I asked to,
>>>neither will I give advice for such a medicine.
>>>Similarly, I will never give an abortive medicine to a woman.
>>>I will keep my life and art pure and holy.)
>>
>>	Of the whole oath the above impressed me most. They seem timeless
>>and very applicable for today !!!
>
>Please keep your reactionary politics to yourself. It's bad enough
>that we have the bible-thumpers trying to impose on us their
>(mis)interpretation of a book written in a totally different world
>to today's realities. What's next, neo-pythagoreans trying to ban
>computers for profaning integer numbers?

If a doctor performed an abortion to a woman against her will (say,
because her boyfriend paid the doctor to do so so that the boyfriend
avoids a possible paternity suit) wouldn't the doctor be guilty of
murder? Perhaps abortion should be legal to women who want it (after
all the "misinterpreted" book says that sin punishment is wrong), but
do we have to label it morally correct because of "today's realities"?

I find no problem in terminating pregnancies that are the result of
an act of hate (rape), or when the unborn has a serious defect. Even
our church calls those abortions "necessary evils". And, there is no
question about therapeutic abortions.

In all other cases, we have people hating the result of an act of love.
Is that right?

By the way, I said "perhaps abortion should be legal" earlier because
while the punishment of a sin is wrong, the society has the right to
defend its members. The question the society faces is whether to include
the unborn to its members. I'm not sure if it should. For sure, the
society must teach its members not to hate...
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: OSE: A troskyist fringe group
Date: 29 Sep 92 07:06:32 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <BvApKE.ErF@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
writes:
>>
>>          I wonder if Andy would change his position if he finds out (if he
>> didn't know already) that the OSE gives unconditional critical support
>
>What is 'unconditional critical support' - sounds like a bit of a
>contradiction in terms to me, but then this could be a subtle aspect of
>Greek philosophy I've missed (BUT WAIT! to indulge in that would be
>national chauvinism on OSE's part and hence against their
>internationalist creed, so I suppose it must be  straightforward
>incoherence after all)

Observe here that it was an Australian who wrote the two first lines, not a
Greek - yet Mr. Andy T. Fear promptly snatches the opportunity to sneer and
deride, who else? The Greeks again, with his most thoughtful comment on Greek
philosophy! How touching of him...

It further appears here that Mr. Andy T. Fear, that illustrious bastion of
supreme knowledge, is having trouble with his own mother tongue. A short
lesson in English 101 is therefore in order. The word "critical" is not
necessarily associated with the connotations he thinks of, does not
necessarily mean "with thought, with reservations". More often than not, it
means "of great importance" - which is the meaning implied here. Ergo, no
contradiction in terms exists. Now, I don't know how the Australian writer
might ascribe such importance to OSE and of course I don't agree with that
assessment; however, he is a loony lefty of similar to OSE persuasion and
might thus well be inclined to exaggerate OSE's significance. English 101
concluded.

>Andy
>
-- 
------------------------    "Avnr Ellnv basileus Makedovwv"
+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=    "[I am] Greek man king of the Macedonians"
<dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
------------------------                    -- Alexander III the Great
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greece's 10 Mistakes
Date: 26 Sep 92 22:38:29 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <MACRAKIS.92Sep25122042@lakatos.osf.org>, macrakis@osf.org (Stavros M
acrakis) writes:
>In article <1992Sep24.023532.138681@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (
DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS) writes:
>
>   ...in any case the ancient Macedonians were inseparably intertwined
>   with the Greek world, while having absolutely nothing to do with
>   the Slavs, mostly Bulgarians, of Vardar...
>
>Could we please put this straw man to rest?
>
>All reasonable people agree that the Ancient Macedonians were not
>Slavs, and their culture and language have nothing to do with the
>modern "Slavo-Macedonians".
>
>All reasonable people also agree that the ancient Macedonians formed
>part of the larger Greek culture area.  To what _extent_ they were
>considered or considered themselves "Greek" is disputed on the net, as
>among serious scholars.
>
>As A.T. Fear points out, neither point is relevant to the current fate
>of the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia...

For the other readers, and not for "s", I point out that of course both points
are absolutely relevant to the cultural piracy the Bulgarians of Skopjie
attempt to perform. Every educated and rational person now knows that ancient
Macedonia was Greek, even though some only agree to it in the cultural sense
and have reservations or doubts about it in the ethnic sense (and as I said,
the evidence at least strongly suggests that the Macedonians were even
ethnically Greek) - that no distinct from the Greeks and the Bulgarians
"Macedonian" nation ever existed until its artificial political fabrication in
the 20th century. But many people already confuse those impostors of Skopjie
as inheritors of the Macedonian heritage which in reality is Greek. In a few
decades, if the piracy of the Greek name of Macedonia were allowed to stand,
most people would associate everything that Macedonia ever was to the state
that would so unjustly bear that name - almost nobody would remember that
"Macedonia is something Greekish", as a non-Greek netter once described to be
his historical feeling. And to say nothing about what territorial claims would
be raised against Greece then, if they are even raised now that the Greekness
of Macedonian history is still remembered...

>
>       -s
>

Dimitris Kouvatsos


-- 
------------------------    "This is the greatest planet on the face of
+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=     the earth"
<dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
------------------------           -- Vice President J. Danforth Quayle
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: MACEDONIA
Date: 27 Sep 92 14:49:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>> 1974. (Helliniki Demokratia Vs. Vassilion Tis Ellados).
>
>>Erland, you keep making somewhat of a fool out of yourself.
>
>And I will continue. The first name seems to mean something
>Democratic Greece, but I have to admit being about the second.
>However, it seems that the main word is actually the same in both,
>though differently spelled and affixed. Was there any proposal
>which did not contain "(H)ellas" or any form thereof? Would anyone
>propose such a name and be taken seriously?

  Actually, the name "Hellenes" was chosen over "Graeki" and "Romii" by
one of the councils of elders in the 1820's. In any case, if Greece was
to agree to a referendum on it's name, would the Skopjie govmnt agree on
a referendum for their name? I doubt it, as evidence suggests that more
than 50% of Vardaris oppose the name "Macedonia".

>> You have claimed that American Indians do not protest the misuse of
>>their names in today's America.
>
>No, I didn't. I only pointed out that several of the states in
>the US have their names of Indian origin. Rest of the ideas of
>what I "claimed" was invented by your and your fellow countrymen.

 OK, so Indian names and symbols are being mis-used. This is an
injustice, and American Indians are protesting vigorouly. Should:

 a) The injustice be removed.
 b) The injustice remain.

I suggest "A". Same for Macedonia. What do you think.

Michael
                 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Proselytism
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:25:39 GMT
Keywords: religion, Greece

cla02@keele (R. Wallace) writes:


>There is a report this morning in the Independent newspaper of an
>individual (a Jehovah's Witness) being prosecuted in Greece under a law
>dating back to 1938 prohibiting proselytisation by any religious group
>in Greece except the Greek Orthodox Church.

 Partially correct.  The Greek Orthodox church is included in the law.

>Richard Wallace.


-- 
 *> Panos Tamamidis
From: gunther.neuberger@icsmac4.icsmac.COM (GUNTHER NEUBERGER)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: A German in Greece
Date: 27 Sep 92 18:20:52 GMT
Organization: ICS - Intelligent Computer Solutions for MAC


Hello everybody,
I am new in this newsgroup.For the last three weeks I have read hundreds of
articles on the Macedonia issue and I think it's the funniest thing
in the last century.As I got deeper and deeper into the discussions 
I realized that Greek opinions carry some sort of paranoia which can
be best summarized as the territorial claims on Greece by Macedonia,
where some organizations at the extreme right in Macedonia are held
responsible.That's really funny.How can such a small country claim land
from Greece? Aggressive policies of the greek government have made the
situation impossible to solve.
I was in Greece two months ago.Me and my girlfriend visited some Greek
islands which were wonderful but one thing really bothered me.
The sentence,"Macedonia is Greek" was written on almost everything I saw.
They had even written this sentence on the walls of public restrooms,
on the closets and doors of these restrooms.
It seemed as if whomever I met in Greece was more than eager to say
something bad about Macedonia and Turkey.
I have also visited Turkey.Before we flew to Istanbul,many Greeks warned
me to be careful about my girlfriend!.After being in Istanbul we realized
how silly and wrong this warning was.I really don't know why Greeks 
behave like this?

 _____________________________________________________________________________
|  Gunther Neuberger                         |  gunther.neuberger@icsmac.com  |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  ICS      I n t e l l i g e n t   C o m p u t e r   S o l u t i o n s       |
 \___________________________________________________________________________/
From: cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Turkish Logic
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:16:41 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

In article <1adtqdINNoq7@agate.berkeley.edu>, sadi@physics1 (Sadi Turgut)
writes:
>In article <Oct01.020521.90900@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>>
>>Interesting logic. Then, can you explain why Greeks visit Turkey and spend 
>>money there?
>
> Simple. There are Greeks that do not believe in this propaganda. I think
>this is what you call "Turkish Logic." But, what I want to understand is the
>"Greek Logic." Why is there a concerted effort to prevent tourists from
>visiting Turkey?

There is no such effort. If there were, a lot less Greeks would visit
Turkey. I wish there was though because visitors to Turkey help finance
the Turkish occupation of Cyprus.

>>Didn't your president say last year that the Dodecanese Islands should be
>>Turkish?
>
> My friend. When Germans were retreating in all fronts and it became evident
>that they are going to lose the war, the German soldiers in Dodecanese
>applied to the then Turkish president Ismet Inonu. They openly invited
>the Turks to invade the islands by saying "don't leave us to the British
>and Greeks."
> Inonu refused. Do you think, Turkey who refused to invade
>at that time, will invade in the future?

Turkey was considered a friend of Germany at the time. The allies would
not consider a Turkish move on the islands a hostile act to the Germans,
but a friendly one. Inonu knew that the allies would not let him keep
the islands.
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Gia ta paidia sto \*Toronto\*
Date: 29 Sep 92 05:26:09 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Tha eimai sto Toronto, Ontario, Canada (plhres specification, e?) gia ena
synedrio stis 12-18 Oktwbriou. Eksi oloklhres meres den mporw na asxoloumai
mono me papers... kai exw akousei gia akmazousa ellhnikh paroikia ekei :-).
An kapoios/a sto Toronto tha hthele na ta poume kapoia mera tote as mou
steilei e-mail sto dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu - the more the merrier!

Euxaristw,
Dhmhtrhs

P.S. A, nai. Kserei kaneis an xreiazomai kanadikh visa? Dyo fores exw paei
Kanada prin 3-4 xronia, thn prwth phra visa sta synora (me autokinhto kai tis
dyo fores), thn deuterh den thymamai na mou zhthse kaneis... :-) Twra
prosgeiwnomai me aeroplano, zhtane visa sto aerodromio?



-- 
------------------------    "Avnr Ellnv basileus Makedovwv"
+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=    "[I am] Greek man king of the Macedonians"
<dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
------------------------                    -- Alexander III the Great
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe