HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnson1@cs.uwp.edu (Christina Johnson)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Childe Roland and Charlemagne's Nephew
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:22:44 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Parkside
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]



I don't know that this is the right place to post this, but I scanned the
newsgroups, and couldn't find anyplace better.  My Professor (Of English
Poetry) says that Childe Roland from Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark
Tower Came" and Rolande of "Song of Roland" (The French Tenth century
epic) are supposed to be one in the same.  I have also read accounts that
Childe Roland is supposed to be Browning's jab at Tennyson, and is
supposed to represent a "new Galahad".  Any comments on this?  Sources are
welcome, if possible.  I'm writing a paper.  Thanks in advance.


-- 
 -Brandywine-                                  
"The quests for knowledge and wisdom 
Xref: sparky sci.classics:1154 soc.culture.greek:11516 rec.arts.poems:12899
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Newsgroups: sci.classics,soc.culture.greek,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: e: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:41:04 GMT
Followup-To: sci.classics
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

I received a couple requests for more info on tapes of
spoken ancient greek, so here it is.  Hopefully some few
in all these newsgroups will find it useful.

	The Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek: A Practical Guide
	Stephen G. Daitz
	ISBN 0-88432-125-8

	Audio Forum, a div. of Jeffrey-Norton Publishers
	On-The-Green, Guillford, CT 06437

	New York sales office:
	145 E. 49th, NY,NY 10017

	London sales
	31 Kensington Church St.
	London W8 4LL, U.K.

Other tapes in The Living Voice of Greek and Latin Lit.:

	_The Birds_
	Cicero, selections
	_Hekabe_
	Greek Poetry
	The P. & R. of Ancient Latin

The one I've heard is certainly worth a gander (even if you
are not a classics major, and just enjoy the literature and
culture, like me), and I would bet the others as well.

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: jim@vivarium.sas.upenn.edu (Jim O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Looking for the Title of a Poem
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:13:20 GMT

The notion that Lesbia's sparrow is phallic in significance was a commonplace  
in Renaissance scholarship, on which see the forthcoming volume *Catullus in  
the Renaissance* by J.H. Gaisser of Bryn Mawr College.  The idea is a silly  
over-reading, and requires no party-pooper, merely a scholar, to confute it.   
The idea that Catullus 2 or 3 refers to Lesbia's masturbation is a novel one,  
but equally far-fetched.  When Catullus wishes to write about sex, he is quite  
capable of doing it himself, without later readers doing it for him!

Jim O"Donnell
Classics, U. of Penn.
jodonnel@sas.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: Stephen Trzaskoma
Subject: Catullus & his sparrow
Organization: University of Illinois U-C Dept. of the Classics
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:01:44 GMT

While I'm of the opinion that the sparrow poems make no allusion to Lesbia's
masturbatory feats, I have no problem with the idea that they are intended to
bring to mind erotic images (specifically perhaps the male member).  The
opinion that such is overreading is merely an example of underestimating one of
the most brilliantly subtle poets who ever wrote.  The connections in antiquity
with sparrows and Aphrodite are common enough (cf. Sappho 1 where they pull
Aphrodite's chariot--not boring old doves; also see Cat. 51 for more Sappho in
Catullus) and there are several  passages in Hellenistic (and perhaps other
Roman???) poetry where the reading of sparrow=penis would make a whole lot of
sense.  For too long people have been trying to come up with interesting things
to say about Catullus 2&3:  e.g. that passer doesn't mean sparrow but some
other more glamorous bird, etc.  But to deny that the word passer has an erotic
context is Victorian prudery.  Incidentally, I'm not so sure that Catullus'
more obvious references to sex are designed to shock anybody.  To be shocked
by, for example, Catullus 16 "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" is to experience
something that I think was unintended.  The intended response was either
laughter (if you aren't Aurelius or Furius or one of their friends) or anger
(if you were).

Stephen Trzaskoma
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: e: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:17:34 GMT

 
For some reason I am reminded of a class I was teaching some years back, in
which the problem of the pronuncition of Latin in "Classical" times became a
topic.  "How," I began to ask rhetorically and pedantically, "would we go
about determining the way ancient Romans pronounced Latin?"
 
Back came the answer from a young gentleman in the front row, "Ask a priest!"
 
So much for Socrates and his method!
From: root@alba.e-burg.su (Volkov Alexander Nikolaevich)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Et in Arcadia ego
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 10:22:12 +0200
Distribution: world
Organization: Alba
Reply-To: root@alba.e-burg.su


>   > How about the last foreign minister of the USSR, Comrade
>   > Bezsmertnikh?  Bez = without; smert = death; nik = person,
        ^ I'm sure, Bessmertny(i)kh is more correct writing.
                             ^^^^ There isn't like sound in English.
>   > individual (as in sputnik, peacenik, beatnik, KZ-nik); -ikh = plural
>   > ending (which case?); Bezsmertnikh = "of/by/to the immortals"?

>   Bezsmertnykh is a common Ukrainian name, and formally means
>   exactly whay you say it does ('of the immortals'; plural, genetive).
                                                       and adjective!

I think, it's correct. But I think, that -ikh ( Bessmertnykh )
                                                         ^^^
signify Polish name. Here in CIS there are many x-Polish. The some was
repressed ( both in Soviet- period (Ural, Siberia) and in pre-Soviet period ),
some was migrants ( btw, there are many Polish migrants in West Ukraine, in
Belorussia, in Lituania), some are the migrant's descendants .

Bessmertnik, Bessmertnyuk - this word is more like the Ukrainian name ( for
example - Kravchyuk;-), but it's well-known ( here in Russia, in any way)
that -ykh ,-ikh, -iy are most frequent endings of the Polish name
( unfortunately, I don't know  why ). Also, maybe, this name was gradualy
changed, but I'm sure that first version of this name was Polish name.
It's all, in the meanwhile...
Thanks,
Alexander Wolkow (or Volkov).
ps. Excuse my poor English...

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Catullus & his sparrow
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 19:07:49 GMT

In article <BzF92w.DqA@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, Stephen Trzaskoma writes:
>But to deny that the word passer has an erotic
>context is Victorian prudery.

And not simply Victorian.  Look at Fordyce's commentary, for example.  For that
matter, simply look at which poems he left out, dismissing them with the
comment in his preface that they did not bear discussion in English.

>Incidentally, I'm not so sure that Catullus'
>more obvious references to sex are designed to shock anybody.  To be shocked
>by, for example, Catullus 16 "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" is to experience
>something that I think was unintended.  The intended response was either
>laughter (if you aren't Aurelius or Furius or one of their friends) or anger
>(if you were).

Ahh.  But Catullus ran with a fast crowd, not unlike the late Victorian
aesthetes (Beardsley, Wilde, usw.) who used language amongst themselves that
was *intentionally* shocking to the upright, prudish Republican mores by which
they were surrounded.

The same sort of thing is true in our day.  I do not remember the source of the
quote, but I long ago read a short note on such matters from which the
following has always stuck:

	Call an adult "pissbrain," and he'll ask you if you want another drink;
	call a five-year-old "pee-pee head" and you have a running, screaming
	five-year-old.

Similarly, treat some farmer or truck driver the way we often treat our
academic colleagues, and you're likely to end up chewing on a tire iron.

It is thus possible to maintain both our statements, that Catullus and his
friends used this language freely, and that the terms were obscene, shocking,
and not in *free* use among the general populace.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Subject: lesbia's labia?
Reply-To: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 17 Dec 92 10:39:57 EST

The authoritative J. ODonnell wrote:

JO>> When Catullus wishes to write about sex, he is quite
  >>capable of doing it himself, without later readers doing it for him!

Richard Anderson replied:

RA>When Catullus writes about sex in blatantly obscene terms, his intent is to
  >shock the reader.  And those words *were* obscene and shocking to the general
  >public.
RA>So I, for one, disagree that it is an over-reading.


If that is the case, let's overread Catullus' sparrow some more ... if 
she is masturbating, clearly the line `cui primum digitum dare 
appetenti/et acris solet incitare morsus' (rough translation: to whom 
she used to give her index finger to peck and to incite sharp pecks) is 
an autoerotic example of Freud's `vagina dentata' theory and as such, 
Catullus in this poem is merely expressing that well-known fear of the 
`vagina dentata' in poetic form. Now, let's consider the passer's 
reappearance in Catullus three, where the passer has died. Here the 
passer has moved from frolicking in Lesbia's bosom (in sinu, in poem 
2) to her lap (poem 3). Here Catullus is clearly marvelling at 
Lesbia's flexibility in masturbation (sed circumsiliens modo huc modo 
illuc/ad solam dominam usque pipiabat: `hopping now here, now there, 
it used to chirp to its mistress alone), but, alas, the passer died.  
Clearly, in her masturbatory fervour, Lesbia did some damage: no doubt 
she became bedridden as all our Victorian predecessors warned us. 

That's the problem with literature -- it's just too darned easy to 
take it to its illogical extreme. Lesbia masturbating? I think not.

David Meadows
Department of Classics
McMaster University
Hamilton, Ontario
CANADA 
---
  1st 1.02b #813  Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur -- Ulpian
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
Date: 13 Dec 92 03:03:58 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

Thanks to Mr Rogers for the discription of the 'VOX' tape.
Never heard of it, but I do admit that your description of it
was more than vivid!

Regards

Panayotis

--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Xref: sparky sci.classics:1148 soc.culture.greek:11405
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 23:27:12 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Followup-To: sci.classics

 pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD) writes:
>In  rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>>       You may wish to locate a copy of a set of two cassette tapes
>>       called _The Sound of Ancient Greek_, ...
>>       to provide an introduction to pronunciation of classical
>>       greek in Athens in the 4th-5th centuries B.C.

	[Mr. Fouliras notes that
	1) noone really knows what the *real* pronunciation was like,
	2) that accent marks were added later to help with the learning task,
	3) that there were various dialects of ancient Greek.]

	As my final contribution to this thread, I will note that the author
	of the above tape set spends many minutes at the beginning
	of the tapes making all of these points, and more, discussing
	why we should bother learning how to pronounce ancient Greek
	(not only for intellectual honesty, but for a complete aesthetic
	experience); how we know the way the language was pronounced
	(a specific greek Grammerian was mentioned, talking about
	the circumflex ("bending the pitch"), the grave and acute accents,
	as well as a specific example of how the borrowing of a Greek
	word into Latin (pilosopia) gives a clue to the pronunciation
	of 'p,'); and finally, that there were various dialects -- the
	Aeolic, the Attic, the Ionic -- and that the only one of these
	that we have much evidence for is the Attic of classical Athens,
	that though we have few clues how Homeric Greek might have been
	spoken, since the received texts of Homer are from the later period
	anyway, this is what is will be covered.

	The narrator fully acknowledges that although his reconstruction
	is necessarily hypothetical, nevertheless it is based on solid
	scholarship, and he references the _Vox Graeca_ that others in
	this thread have mentioned, and another work I can't recall now,
	also discussing why his reconstruction is superior to that of Erasmus.

	Included in the tape are examples of the opening lines of
	the Iliad, as spoken by a modern Greek, by a person speaking
	the Erasmeian reconstruction, and his reconstruction, including
	all of the pitch and metrical accents.  The tapes, after
	covering the pronunciation of individual letters, progresses
	to that of the various accent marks, and then to how to
	master the poetical meter of e.g. Homer, using a five step
	learning process.  The last examples given are passages
	from major authors like Aeschylus, Euripides, Plato, and
	lastly, that of the only complete extant poem of Sappho,
	with a soooo exquisite dovely cooing quality to it that my
	spine tingles now thinking of it.
	

>
>Panayotis

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
    <1992Dec18.193408.20353@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:57:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.193408.20353@leland.Stanford.EDU>
alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
 
>
>In addition to aspirates and pitches, I pronounce ETA and O MEGA as mid-low
>long vowels, E PSILON and O MIKRON as mid-high short vowels, U PSILON as high
>back rounded, and the digraphs EPSILON+IOTA and OMIKRON+UPSILON as a mid-high
>long vowels alternating with diphthongs.
>
A
Actually the evidence for upsilon as _front_ rounded vowel is mostly circum-
stantial and deductive.  That is to say, the argument goes that the formerly
_back_ round Indo-European [u] "must have been" _front_ rounded in Classical
Greek, since it ended up as front non-rounded, and thus had to go through
a stage between.  These "logical" arguments can be dangerous.  I could be
convinced by other evidence, but for the moment I'm with Alderson on this,
and against (my former student) Don Ringe, even though he knows more about
Greek than I.  Nor am I going to weaken my position by telling you his
arguments, so there!
 
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of Greek names in Homer's Odyssey
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 23:40:07 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

 jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>
>And of course, this is better than the movie version of Ulysses
>(with Kirk Douglas), where we have the Gods Zeus and Neptune.
>

	Probably derived from the Great Books xlation, where
	(unless I'm grossly misteaken, its been awhile) I
	was horrified (when quite young) to find the Roman
	god's names used.

>Jim Mann            
>Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: clcs26@ccsun.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Rape Oil as transport fuel
Keywords: biofuel rape transport Europe
Date: 12 Dec 92 16:04:15 GMT
Reply-To: clcs26@ccsun.strath.ac.uk
Organization: Strathclyde University Computer Centre.


	In Europe, there is much interest in the use of biofuels
	for transport. They offer a green and sustainable alter-
	native to fossil fuels in cars, trucks, ships, etc.

	The most promising is a form of diesel derived from rape
	seed crops. It can be burnt in a standard diesel engine
	without problem and offers no lead, no sulphur dioxide,
	and importantly, no net CO2 production.

	Leaders in Europe are Austria (much troubled by Germany-
	Italy through traffic pollution), where 40% of oil seed
	production is turned into biodiesel; and Italy where a 
	private company has begun production and are successful
	-ly exploiting the growing market.

	I would be interested to hear what is going on in the US
	with respect to biofuels.

	It seems to me that the US is often well ahead us slow 
	Europeans in terms of environmental legislation and 
	incentives, despite (because of) being the heaviest
	pollutors.

	The recent GATT talks are not trivial to this debate.

	Anyway, I would be pleased to hear what is happening
	vis a vis biofuels in the states. (or elsewhere?)
s.m.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:45:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.031731.14504@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>
>A gallon of gas is equivalent to 345.74 kWH. That assumes perfect conversion
>of heat to mechanical energy of course. Practical IC engines are about 23%
>efficient at the conversion so a gallon of gas can actually deliver about
>79.5 kWH. That's still remarkabbly better than any battery. A gallon of
>gas weighs about 7 pounds. 5 gallons of gas is equivalent to 397.5 kWH
>which at $.11 a kWH is $43.73 or about $8.75 a gallon equivalent. If the
>EV cost no more to purchase than a gas powered car, it still wouldn't
>be cost competitive unless gas was $8.75 a gallon.

Well I screwed this up royally, let's try again.

A pound of gas has 118,000 BTU and there are 7 pounds to the gallon.
So a gallon of gas has 826,000 BTU. A BTU is 293e-6 kWH, so a gallon
of gas is equivalent to 242 kWH. IC engines are about 23% efficient,
so a gallon of gas is equivalent to 55.66 kWH. At $.11 a kWH, a gallon
of gas is equivalent to $6.12 of electricity. So gas has to reach
$6.12 a gallon before electricity becomes cost competitive. And that's
if the vehicles are the same price.

Gary
From: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Notch another one up for the Greennazis
Date: 12 Dec 92 05:33:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: sugra.1992Dec12.053327.16941
Organization: Private Computer, Totowa, NJ

In article <1992Dec8.145926.19512@inel.gov: dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose) writes:
:Where is this 1 microgram/kg number coming from?  I was recently visiting
:Texas A&M University and went looking for a reference on the toxicology of
:Pu.  I found one book in the library specifically on Pu and a thick textbook
:on the general topic of toxicology in the bookstore (if anyone is interested, 
:I will post the references later, but they are not with me as I type).  

I would both references.  Going to be an interesting book to leave on
my desk now that its time for year end bonuses :-).  I would like to use
what I copied out of "Handbook on Toxicity of Inorganic Compounds" by Hans G.
Seiler and Helmut Sigel, but they use units like Bq and Sv, of which I
lack the conversion units to more familar terms like grams.

-- 
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to ken@eies2.njit.edu for now.
Apple and AT&T lawsuits: Just say NO!
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: passive solar: fact or fiction
Organization: University of Rochester
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:21:13 GMT

In article <7520009@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson) writes:

> I just read a book written by the Hawkweed Group, a solar architectural
> firm from Wisconsin.  They make a claim that a passive solar house
> can be built just as cheaply (or even cheaper) than a conventional house,
> and that over 90% of the heating requirements of the house will be provided
> by the sun.


I suspect the trick here is the 90% figure.  I bet what they actually
show is that the auxiliary heating requirements can be reduced 90%
relative to a (then) conventional house.

This isn't all that hard to do -- it's called "superinsulation".
Basically, it means fewer and better windows, thicker insulation, and
careful attention to achieving air tightness.  If the insulation is
good enough, the house does not need a central heating system (heat
from appliances and bodies does the trick); this can offset much or
all of the cost of the extra insulation.

Calling this "passive solar" is really a lie, though, since the
technique works almost as well even in total darkness.  It's just
conservation.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
From: duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:33:55 GMT
Subject: passive solar: fact or fiction
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: sci.energy


I just read a book written by the Hawkweed Group, a solar architectural
firm from Wisconsin.  They make a claim that a passive solar house
can be built just as cheaply (or even cheaper) than a conventional house,
and that over 90% of the heating requirements of the house will be provided
by the sun.

They state that contractors bid's for at least some of the buildings that
they designed were competitive with conventional construction.  They do
not, however, provide any data to support the 90%+ claim.

I believe that this book was published around 10 years ago, and there are
all sorts of predictions about solar homes becoming popular, etc., etc.
This obviously hasn't happened.  I live in an area of the country where
solar power would appear to make a great deal of sense.  However, all I
see is the occasional active solar panel, probably only used for hot
water, and probably installed back when there were generous tax incentives
for solar retrofits.

So, what's the story?

(1) - These guys are liars, and are just trying to drum up business by
      publishing this book.

(2) - Builders won't risk building solar homes because there's a good
      chance that they won't sell.

(3) - People don't want solar homes because they are ugly.

(4) - Other.  Please specify.

I left out the argument that most houses are built on small lots today
and will eventually be shaded by tall trees.  Where I live, there are
no trees in new subdivisions and it will take quite a few years before
shading is a problem.  If a passive solar house really costs the same
to build, and people could save $30-$100/month on heating bills, why
aren't they insisting on them?

I suspect that a passive solar home really does cost more, and that
item (3) is a BIG issue (hence item (2) follows as a corollary).
--
Duane Jacobson