From: rdh@veritas.com (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Rational person standard
Date: 13 Aug 1992 23:27:09 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: anableps.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@anableps.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug11.183633.19556@access.usask.ca> bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.COM ("M. Bickis") writes:
>In article <16741aINN3vg@agate.berkeley.edu> rdh@veritas.com
>(Robert Hartman) writes:
>>As far as I'm concerned, any rational standard for evaluating the
>>degree of appropriateness or offensiveness of any given behavior is a
>>consensus among those people who are on the receiving end of that
>>behavior.
>
>This sounds rational, until you test its limits.  If there is a
>consensus among the male members of a private club that the presence
>of a woman is offensive, would you say that is a rational standard?
>If all the members of a white congregation are offended by the
>presence of a black worshipper, is that a rational standard?

This is a very good point.  However, there is an underlying
understanding that discrimination of that sort is no longer
acceptable.  The people to ask in this case are the one's against whom
the discriminatory behavior is being directed--the women and blacks who
are being arbitrarily excluded.

>>When I hear a consensus among women that uninvited comments on
>>appearance or sexual characteristics are offensive, as I have all my
>>life, that's good enough for me.  
>
>This would be true if there *were* a consensus, but evidently there is
>not.  I know there are women who *enjoy* polite comments made about
>their appearance, and I have even known women who (much to my dismay)
>seem to enjoy *lewd* comments.  A compliment to one may be interpreted
>as a sexist remark by another.  Similarly, one woman might interpret a
>touch as a friendly gesture, to another, it may be a pass.  (Note you
>said "uninvited" not "unwelcome".)

Another very good point.  And yet I would not touch a stranger or
co-worker without some clear signal, preferably verbal, from her that
my doing so would be welcome.  And prior to someone indicating her
enjoyment of lewd comments, I don't think I would make them.  To
me, "uninvited" and "unwelcome" are synonymous for all practical
purposes.

>>Oddly, while there is a consensus among feminists that posters
>>featuring "beautiful" women are offensive, I've heard otherwise from
>>many non-feminist women.

I guess I should have been more direct.  I meant sexually provocative
images of women.

>>Either there's some more consciousness
>>raisng to be done (a la Naomi Wolf) on this issue, or there's some
>>more information to be accepted, perhaps on both sides of that issue.
>
>Such as accepting the fact that there is *not* a consensus. ...

Although I suspect that there is a large majority of women who find
such posters offensive to one extent or another, I'm not sure if there
is a clear consensus on the issue outside of feminist and fundamentalist
circles.

> ... You want to "raise the conciousness" of all these people?

No, not me.  But if there _isn't_ a consensus among women, then I
would prefer to have the benefit of the doubt when I make a mistake.

>If somebody does something *intentionally* to offend me, then I see
>the offender as culpable, and deserving of correction.  But if *I* am
>offended because of an innocent action on another's part, then that is
>*my* problem.

Agreed.  It is one thing for a feminist woman to say to me, "I didn't
appreciate that," and quite another for her to label me a sexist when I
meant no harm.

Of course, if mine was the umpteenth "inadvertent" encroachment
experienced by a woman on a given day, after years and years of
enduring similar slights, due to the ongoing and apparently willful
ignorance of most men, I can understand why she might have a tendency
to react badly.

That's why I try not to start it by making wise cracks before I know
someone.  (But once they start with me, I'm completely merciless.  ;^)

-r


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