HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:42:51 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   There has been much talk about the deportations in the context
of their political significance.  I wonder why terrorist activity
and murders on the part of Arab terrorists aimed at Israelis, are
not regarded as politically significant?  There seems to be a bit
of a double standard here.

   A man is kidnapped.  A short time later, his body is found out
on the side of some road, dumped like a bag of garbage.  The body
indicates that he was bound and repeatedly stabbed to death.  The
murder was carried out by an organization sworn to kill Jews.  It
is a terrorist organization with hundreds of members.  They swear
an oath to try to kill Israelis whenever and however they can.

   They are rounded up and booted out of the area.  They received
money and clothing, and then were shown the door.  This eviction,
this kicking out of terrorists is being proclaimed as cruel.  But
there has been not one word of protest from a single humanitarian
or human rights group about kidnapping an innocent man, tying him
up, and repeatedly stabbing him to death.  Why does the world say
nothing about this act, but moans about the eviction of those who
have sworn themselves to perform such acts?

  Have you 'humanitarians' no standards?  Are you so biased as to
give tacit approval to such a torturous and sadistic murder?  Why
do you care more about the murderers than you do the victim?  Are
you indifferent to bloodshed if the blood being shed is Jewish?

   Jews are also human beings.  Many of you may not think so, but
we are.  Is it acceptable to kidnap someone, bind him, and murder
him by repeatedly stabbing him, if he is a Jew?  Mr. Toledano did
not ever kill anyone.  He was not a murderer.  But he was killed.
He was butchered like a piece of cattle.  And yet you who yell at
the world about the eviction of people sworn to commit such acts,
you say nothing about this man's death.

   The concept of human rights is one that should apply to people
universally.  Furthermore, if one considers deporting a person to
be worse than murdering a person, one has a distorted view of the
severity of these to actions.  Would YOU rather be given clothing
and money, and be kicked out.., or would you rather be kidnapped,
tied in rope from head to toe, and be knifed to death?
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jihad
Date: 19 Dec 92 10:11:06 GMT

<nabeel.724715036@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo):

Jihad is waged upon them if the Islamic spread was obstructed by them, e.g. if
Muslims were expanding and wanted that island to surrender to Islamic rule
(different than embracing Islam) and they refused to embrace Islam, pay tax
(tribute), then there is only war.

	Charles Martel halted the advance of Islam in the battle
	of Tours, in 732.  What happened to the Jihad in Europe?

	
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23446 soc.culture.arabic:5656
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Islam
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:18:50 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <nabeel.724199557@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
>
>    The punishment in Islam ranges from that of adultery to stoning them
>to death, and then burning their bodies. The Iranian system's punishment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is moderate. If I were a head of an Islamic state, I would feed them to
>lions (alive) until I can think of an appropriately severe punishment.


Oh Son Of Woman:

You don't know the FIRST thing about Islam.

It would be VERY wise of you to keep your mouth shut before you
know what the hell you are talking about.

I'm tired of reading your filth and lies ... thank GOD you don't
represent anyone except the little distorted voice inside your
mind.

Anisa
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Practicing what is preached, Part II
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:25:38 GMT


 <Bz93D5.96r@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>Faurisson on the basis of the evidence I have seen may well be an
>anti-Semite. I wouldn't cut him down by calling him an
>anti-Semite, however; ...


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Deporting "Agitators"
Date: 14 Dec 92 05:07:54 GMT


The American media have failed
to call Netanyahu on his ugly racism, ...
                         ^^^^^^^^^^

From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Pollard & Neo-Nazis
Date: 12 Dec 92 15:47:51 GMT

It is remarkable that the American media haven't grilled
Netanyahu on the subject of his views about deportation with the
same intensity they interrogate other racists around the world.
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23278 soc.culture.arabic:5607
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Date: 12 Dec 92 07:18:15 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast


>       What a cruel fate.
>       Allah creates millions of Muslim homosexuals and then
>       punishes them for acting on urges that are natural
>       to them.  

<nabeel.724114388@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo):

That's His business. I, for one, believe that it is His right to
punish whomever He likes regardless of what they did right or wrong.
But He does not do that. He gave you this urge to fight it. How about
someone who has the urge to steal, kill, or whatever?


	Irrelevant: stealing and killing are not victimless crimes.
	Yes, a lesbian could fight her sexual urges, but why
	should she have to?  Similarly, a white woman could fight  
	her urge to marry a black man, but why should she have to?   
        Just because racists find miscegenation indecent?



> 	I don't believe it is acceptable to kill people for
>       reasons of religious bigotry. 

That's your own problem, if you live somewhere, you are bound to
accept the law of that where. If you don't, have fun!


	One can work to overturn bigoted laws.  Witness the
        US Civil Rights movement.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Palestinian collaborators
Date: 12 Dec 92 13:19:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1483500306:000:1217
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!cpr    Dec 12 05:19:00 1992


From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Palestinian collaborators

/* Written  9:00 am  Dec 11, 1992 by bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca in igc:talk.politics. */
/* ---------- "Palestinian collaborators" ---------- */
In article <1728700003@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
> 
> Palestinian collaborators A Report by Jerusalem Post  of August
> 29, 1992 (excerpts)

Why is this here? If I want to read talk.jewish.politics , I can go find
a newsgroup. Stop wasting our time.

Same for next 3 postings. Who the hell is the Center for Policy Research
and how can we prevent these postings in the future?

|-------------------------------------|--------------------------------|
| If we had an index file, we could   | In fact, except for protecting |
| look it up in the index file under  | individual rights, no valid    |
| "Index File".                       | reason for government exists." |
|           -- Tegan in "Castrovalva" |      ... Dr. Frank Wallace     |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bill Garland = bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca |Commercial : Send me your money.|
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23608 soc.culture.arabic:5718
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Shamir says ( Re: Opposites and yet so alike
Date: 17 Dec 1992 18:35:34 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <BzEsy9.ILK@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec17.010144.6869@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
|> >
|> >	I'm not justifying the mass killing of either group, but the two
|> >	examples you have picked are somewhat different.  The Hamas posting
|> >	is an example of a creed to live by.  The Jewish youths' chant was
|> >	an angry reaction to a murder, which will probably subside.
|> >
|> >	Geoff
|> Maybe you did not hear about the recent Shamir quote:
|> 
|> 	``We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the closest
|> of contacts. We know that these people have no respect for human life,''
|> Shamir said.
|> 	``They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''
|> 
|> He was your prime minister, you know!

Far be it from me to defend Shamir, a man who holds views that I find
abominable.  However, this is not a call to murder Arabs.  Yes, it is
a gross generalization.  Had he said "We can kill them because...."
then you would be correct to make this comparison.  He did not make this
statement in the context of justifying violent retribution or acts,
did he?


-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 20 Dec 92 18:35:33 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Dec15.171854.14797@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) writes:
> Apparently Brad/Ali:
> 
> >>Please note that there is a difference between a police officer who is
> >>trying to maintain peace and order and a soldier who is trying to
> >>maintain a military occupation. I feel sorry for the soldiers who are
> >>made to go abroad and oppress people by command of their government but
> >>I applaud the action of the Palestinians. Soldiers engaged in military
> >>duty on foreign soil (the Occupied Gaza Strip) must expect to die. I
> 
> Too bad for those Imperialist U.S. Marines in Somlia, huh?  
> Yankees out of Africa? 
> 
> >>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
> 
> -- 
> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George
Bush will
> American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy
Carter as the
> My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.

Without going into my views about the U.S. operations in Somalia I think
it is worth pointing out a few things regarding your comment:

1. The U.S. has announced its intentions to remain in Somalia for only a
short period of time. Israel has expressed no desire to withdraw from
Palestinian land (It is also U.S. policy not to support a Palestinian
state, BTW).

2. U.S. troops are ostensibly in Somalia to facilitate the feeding of
starving people. Israeli troops are not in Palestinian land to help the
Palestinians but to maintain a military presence over the territory and
protect Israelis who have moved onto Palestinian land.

3. It is my belief that it is a fundamental right of people to resist
the forced occupation of their land by a foreign army. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Jews denounce Israeli racism
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:58:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.173947.14971@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>In article <1483500308@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

>>We,  entitled to the privileges accorded under the Israeli Law of Return

>>Rabbi Elmer Berger, Sarasota

>>Lenni Brenner, New York

>>Steve Goldfield, San Francisco
>
>This name is well-known on the net, and to say he doesn't have much
>credibility would be an understatement.
>
>I think that after this posting we see the true nature of the "Center
>for Policy Research."  

The name Albert Langer from Melbourne rings a bell.  I seem to recall
that he was a Communist kook who opposed everything that ever existed.
Sounds like a friend of Goldfield's...

I hate it when people who have no understanding of or interest in
Judaism proclaim themselves spokesmen for it.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:11:37 GMT

--------------------------------------------------
Later on, we also see the names:

[....]
>Lenni Brenner, New York

Talk about a writer who has no respect in Jewish circles!  Once again,
this lowers, rather than raises, my respect for the statement.

[....]
>Steve Goldfield, San Francisco

This name is well-known on the net, and to say he doesn't have much
credibility would be an understatement.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, I was wondering where that shit Steve Goldfield is. He
once posted that "Israeli settlers are fair game to assassination". 
Makes you wonder about these great humanists, like Goldfield
and the other person quoted so often in this kind of
propaganda, the Israeli who says that "extermination
of settlers is not murder".

As if finding some crackpot Jews who suppport a theory is enough.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Israel/ Theocracy? (was Re: Antisemitism)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:28:16 GMT

In article <42489@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
><Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
> 
> [much deleted for brevity - ESP]
>>The problem becomes even more severe when you have a
>>significant number of Israelis claiming that they are the chosen
>>people, a nation of priests called upon to define moral standards
>>for the rest of the benighted world. 
>
>	I'm already beginning to feel the pressure.
>	The benighted world had better do something about these
>	Israeli priests before it is too late.
>
>
>>Nor if Israel increasingly becomes a Jewish theocratic
>>state does it have much ground to stand on in objecting to the
>>U.S. becoming a Christian theocratic state.
>
>
>	Is Israel increasingly becoming a Jewish theocratic
>	state, or is this more innuendo?

I don't think Israel is increasingly becoming a Jewish theocratic
state; however, as a Jew and a staunch supporter of Israel I won't balk
at the statement that religious groups do have influence in the Israeli
government which is not proportional to their representation among the
Israeli population.  There have always been representatives from
religious parties in the Israeli Knesset; the number is usually between
15 and 20 (this time around there are 18 - 8 from Shas, 6 from the
National Religious Party, 4 from Agudat Yisrael) and doesn't vary much.
But because of Israel's electoral system where one votes for lists
rather than individual candidates, and because no one party has *ever*
won a majority in the Knesset, these parties very often hold the balance
of power, and are critical coalition elements in just about every
Israeli government.  This despite the fact that the vast majority of
Israelis are either or at the very least do not support the idea of an
Israel where religion is a defining characteristic of life.  

It should be noted that this strain of Zionism has existed for a long
time, and is not going away.  However, neither does it seem to be
significantly gaining in popularity, as the # of Knesset seats
controlled by the religious parties appears quite stable over the last
20 years.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Nobel prize for Rabin
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:30:27 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

Brendan recently foresaw (presumably after detailed perusal of MEQ 15(?))
the possibility of Rabin being awarded a Nobel peace prize. I would like
to second this nomination, which would place Rabin in the Pantheon of
Peacemakers along with such worthies as Henry Kissinger, who, as we all
recall, made peace in Vietnam.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:15:53 GMT

In article <1ghfbrINN5b1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>I can't seem to interpret this in any other way than that Palestinian
>violence against Palestinians somehow justifies Israeli violence
>against Palestinians.  Despite seeing this presented as an argument
>quite a lot of times, I am still at a loss about its logic.
>Perhaps you can explain it?

[...]

>Some are certain to be collaborators, but I'm sure many are not.
>I would be 99% certain that this corruption of the focus of the
>intifada had more than a little Israeli help.  No, I'm not talking
>about death squads necessarily; there are many subtler ways to go
>about it.  On the other hand, as I've said before, the killing of
>collaborators is an unfortunate invariant of "resistance movements",
>especially at similar stages.

I can't seem to interpret this in any other way than that Palestinian
violence against Palestinians is somehow justified.  Despite seeing
this presented as an argument quite a lot of times, I am still at a
loss about its logic. Perhaps you can explain it?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: jewish racism     2/2
Date: 17 Dec 92 04:17:51 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

(Continued from previous message)

     remain Jewish."

     The adoption of chauvinist doctrines of racial purity and
     the logic of the blood were not confined to Jabotinsky or to
     the revisionists. The liberal philosopher, Martin Buber,
     located his Zionism equally within the framework of European
     racist doctrine:

     "The deepest layers of our being are determined by blood;
     our innermost thinking and our will are colored by it."

<excerpt pages>26

</o>
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  messianists: will blow up the world if laughed at
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:45:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.045041.15114@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>In article <4698@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>>In article <BzBAHI.4vs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>
>>>They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
>>>Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
>>>Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.
>>
>>His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
>>for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
>>very humanitarian on Israel's part).
>	Of course he was convicted of organizing the assisinations of
>	Palestinians, not Israelis, so I guess killing Palestinians
>	is ok?  Is this part of the intifada?

I don't know what you're saying.  You know the Intifada rose by the native 
to fight occupation of Israel to the his land.  Ahmad Yaseen is an
fighter against occupation.  Sympathizers to him and his health situation,
found no other solution but to take an Israeli soldier as a better
card in hand. JUST LIKE ISKHAK RABEEN JUST SAID on 60 Minutes, they
took Sheikh Obeid as a better card in hand to have a better negotiation
position when it boils down to trading arabs with the israeli Pilot
shut down by PLO.  The exact same thing applies.  The diff is: Hamas
doesn't have a state, nor a battling ground, IDF narrowed down
on them and came close, I guess they found no other solution but to
execute him.  Now Hizbullah can advance towards the Jail of Sheikh Obeid,
Israel would execute him before his comrads can free him.  I  hope you agree.

jle
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 15 Dec 1992 09:17:54 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article <1992Dec14.181022.14513@colorado.edu> Eric Perlman writes:
>In article <1ghfbrINN5b1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>>Some are certain to be collaborators, but I'm sure many are not.
>>I would be 99% certain that this corruption of the focus of the
>>intifada had more than a little Israeli help.  No, I'm not talking
>>about death squads necessarily; there are many subtler ways to go
>>about it.  On the other hand, as I've said before, the killing of
>>collaborators is an unfortunate invariant of "resistance movements",
>>especially at similar stages.

>Not sure what you're trying to say here, Brendan.  Does the IDF try to
>recruit Palestinians to help in the security situation?  Of course it
>does - that's just plain common sense.  But the vast majority of those
>assaulted by the Death Squads aren't guilty in the slightest.  Even PLO
>activists realize this yet make no attempt to rein in the squads. 

I bet your "make no attempt" comment is just plain wrong, but I don't
have time to argue it.  The point I was trying to make is this:

In addition to the usual stuff like random detentions, beatings,
shootings and so on, it is to be expected that Israeli agencies
(read Shabak) are working to corrupt the intifada from within.  The
sort of thing I mean is recruiting more "informers" than necessary,
possible deliberate exposure of collaborators, funding activities 
of anti-PLO persons, speading rumours, many other things.  The 
result of such a campaign is that is fuels the paranoia of 
Palestinians, who start becoming suspicious of one another and
basically start seeing an Israeli agent under every bed.  Resistance
movements at this stage of development always suffer from an
increase of infighting.  It would happen even without outside help,
but a good security service (which Shabak is) can help this process
along dramatically.  I think that if this is not the case they 
would be ashamed of themselves.

I'm leaving.  Please e-mail a copy of any reply.  

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast