From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:00:09 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson TX

In article <BsGCJq.CwB@newcastle.ac.uk> w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk writes:
>From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
>Date: 4 Aug 92 09:19:02 GMT

>gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:

>>What I finf truly amazing is that people that I consider to be quite
>>intelligent get so completely bent out of shape and ignore all of
>>their skeptical training when some one mentions the g word.  Gun that
>>it, not god.

>>My earlier post was responded to by Leonard Norrgard, from Finland.  I
>>will not quote from the past articles, but simply make the following
>>comments:
>>1-The crime in this country occurs disproportionately in the large,
>>poor cities, such as NYC, Washington and Detroit. This has nothing to

>  This is probably the case in all poor cities.  The different
>crime rates in different countries might be mainly due to cultural
>differences (eg the disparity between the rich and poor in that city,
>how easy it is for criminals to get away with their crime etc)

>>do with guns because these cities have the strictest gun control laws
>>in the country.  In NYC, for instance, you simply can not buy hand
>>guns legally.  The problem is one of economics, and the symptom is
>>crime, some times perpetrated with guns.

>Are you claiming the robbery rate would be just as high if people
>had to use knives.

>>2-The comment about a person getting a gun and becoming a criminal,
>>thereby being able to get the gun legally, is pure bullshit.  This
>>simply does not happen (with any statistical significance).  There are

>Yes but a criminal would be more likely to rob if they have a gun 
>rather than a knife or a stick (IMHO).

>>3-Anyone who believe that the police and military are there to protect
>>and serve is not living in the same world I am.  But, then again,

> The police are there to maintain some degree of order, protect 
>property of the better off from damage, etc.  So they are there
>to protect.  I live on Earth what world do you live on?

>>  Hint: Would Tienamen Square have happened if the
>>Chinese had the RKBA?  

>Why not?  Only a fool would believe possession of guns alone would
>prevent that GIVEN the fact that governments have tanks, missiles,
>flame throwers, napalm, etc.

>>Too many people have been brainwashed into believing that guns are bad
>>and that guns cause ccrime.  This simply isn't true.  As scientists,

>Give a criminal a knife and they might use it.
>Give a criminal a gun and they might use it.
>Give a criminal a nuclear bomb and they might use it.

>>we are obligated to seek the truth, not the propaganda spread by
>>certain groups.  Personally, the fact that I own firearms for the
>>my protection does not make me happy.  I would rather live in a
>>utopian society where everyone's needs and wants are met, thereby
>>eliminating the cause of crime.  However, the world today is not
>>utopian and to survive, we must each look out for ourselves.  And to
>>do this effectively, it means owning guns.

>Then why do most wealthy countries EXCEPT the USA get by without
>massive gun ownership AND lower crime rates than the US.  Are
>you claiming that if the UK was to allow everyone to own guns
>that crime would not increase as a result of this,   as criminals
>used guns to commit more robberies etc.

Probably because their penal systems are better than ours.
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Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
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