From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)
Subject: Re: Iran-Iraq war 
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:36:08 GMT
Organization: LabaniyyAtee-e-Sar-e-Koocheh

In article <1992Nov9.221137.2067@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:

[stuff delted]

Thank you for your post, zafar jan.  This is more the kind of discussion I,
and I trust we all like.  I agree with you completely with a few minor
differences.  Let me clarify my view on this.

First, a brief history of the beginning of the war, so if you want, please 
skip to the next paragraph if you already know it.

Yes, Saddam invaded Iran in an unjustified and barbaric fashion, and throughout
his war, he made Hitler look like an angel.  From 1980-1982, Iran was truly
fighting a war of defense of the motherland, and for the more Islamically
inclined, maybe even a jihad of sorts.  In 1982, we liberated Khorramshahr,
and dealt the final blow to the invaders, and we were crying as we entered the
city out of the sheer emotion.  Khorramshahr was a symbol of resistance. Mehran,
which was many kilometers inside Iran, fell in the first few hours of the 
invasion. Same with Susangerd and many other towns.  Khorramshahr was ON
the border with Iraq, there was absolutely NO army (maybe 4 tanks), and the 
people with the help of lightly armed revolutionary guards resisted with
molotov cocktails and rifles in the face of one of the most advanced and
formidable arsenals in the world for 23 days.  For the next year, EVERYBODY,
whether they were pro-Shah pilots and officers, or hezbollahis or communists
or you name it, got together and stopped the Iraqis in their tracks.  Then,
in 1981-1982, the siege of Abadan was broken, at which time Banisadr was
overthrown by the fundamentalist thugs, and there was a crackdown on liberals,
and General Fallahi who was a key strategist was mysteriously killed along
with defense minister Namjoo, and Air Force commander Colonel Fakoori 
in a C-130 crash near Tehran, and to this day, we don't know what was behind 
that.  (The gov't said there was a bomb in the plane).
After that, Bostan was liberated, cutting the north off from the south. Also,
a major attack defeated the Iraqis in the Dezful area, and the final blow came
when we liberated Khorramshahr.  At this time, the Iraqi army was completely in
disarray, and in a state of defeat and withdrawal.  But up until then, Iran
still had the airpower it needed to support its counterattack.  True, many
young boys and men fought heroically, but they couldn't have done what they 
had without the air support umbrella that protected them from the Iraqi 
Air Force.  In 1982, Iran was also drained, and had taken many losses in terms
of equipment and professional trained personnel, such as pilots, specialists,
etc.  At the same time, the stance that the IRI had taken towards the outside
world by taking hostages, and openly stating their intention to export their 
revolution rallied the world behind Saddam, since everyone thought better the 
devil you know than the devil you don't.  zafar jan, there was absolutely
no way that Iran could ever ever capture Baghdad and topple Saddam, and the
military leaders knew it.  General ZahirNejad, the chief of staff of the
armed forces at that time said he had grave doubts about the effectiveness
of the Iranian soldier on the other side of the border.  At that time, they 
could have dictated a peace to Iraq on their terms, thus proving to the world
that they are not expansiponist and aggressive, not to mention prevent the
subsequent destruction that followed.  We saw- the war went on for six more 
years, and it brought nothing except death and destruction to both countries,
and defeat to Iran.  THIS COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, and they knew it from
the beginning.  They kept this war going on, enabling the very westerners
that you oppose to sell massive amounts of weapons, strengthen their foothold
in the region, keep Israel safe, destroy the leftists in Iran, get cheap
oil, and keep two extremely powerful and resourceful MUSLIM countries busy
destroying each other.  WHOM did this continuation of the war benefit?

You mentioned what it would be like if Saddam had won.  I agree, it would
be terrible.  But what would it be like if IRI had won, I mean taken over
Baghdad?  Do you think they would have been a humane gov't?  Just look at
them now,  do you want to see another country become like that too? I
don't think it was in anyone's benefit for the Ayatollah Hakim to triumphantly
march over the dead bodies of millions of young Iranians and Iraqis into
Baghdad and declare victory and establish another Islamic Republic.

Yes, the war was imposed on us, and we had little sympathy from the outside
world thanks to our leaders who decided to isolate themselves from the outside
world.  Yes, we HAD to defend ourselves and we did.  But we didn't have to,
and couldn't even if we wanted to overthrow Saddam and install a puppet.  By 
1988, our country was scarred with carpet bombing of our cities, chemical 
attacks, and mass killings of our underequipped soldiers.  For what?  For 
America, the very country the IRI claimed to "struggle" against.  Yes, Iraq was
responsible for beginning the war, but IRI was responsible for continuing the 
war despite effort after effort from various bodies (the Islamic conference,
the non-aligned movement, the United Nations, the Arab League).  This is
the direct result of mentalities like Ali joojeh's, who think they are so 
tough they can take on anyone, and believe me, if IRI had ICBM's and nuclear
weapons, they would NOT hesitate to use them.  Anything is justifiable when
the other side is kafer, right?  So, in short, I differentiate between the
war until 1982, and after 1982.  And I think that is also shown in the people's
enthusiasm to serve.  Prior to 1982, when the war was about our country's
defense, EVERYONE was going, and cutting in line to volunteer to fight/give
blood/serve some other way.  This went away to a great extent when the war
moved into Iraq, and became hopeless as well as pointless. From 1982 on,
the war was NOT about our country's defense, but rather about the IRI's 
survival.  I don't need to tell you who paid the price.

Now, regardless of the year in the war, I feel the utmost respect for
those who served, fought, and died, and I think that all Iranians should
and do feel the same way.  And I still think the least our country can do
is to commemmorate them by building a monument in their respect.  Doesn't it
tell you something when they build a gold tomb to commemorate Khomeini, but
no such thing to commemorate the fallen who died for their country?  This
should tell you where the IRI's loyalties lie.  

May their souls rest in peace, and may they be never forgotten, and may the IRI
leaders who betrayed them pay for what they have done. Let's hope they haven't
died for nothing, and that we will learn that maybe there is a better way.

Thank you zafar, for carrying on a DECENT discussion.  I hope you keep posting.



>
>zafar
>

Agha Javad

Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian