From: bickis@skmath3.usask.ca ("M. Bickis")
Subject: Re: On being offended
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Keywords: Pornography, conventions, courtesy, stereotypes
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:39:17 GMT

In article <robert.727650892@labyrinth> uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.ucar.EDU
(Robert Coleman) writes:
>	I'd be surprised, however, if you were to say that homosexuals
>need to justify some benefit (other than their personal
>gratification).  Or that atheists need to justify that their beliefs
>create some good for society, or Wiccans, or Christians, or whatever.

Here's your surprise: I can't speak for homosexuals, but certainly
Christians, and most other religions *do* believe that the "offense"
they might be offering *is* more than counterbalanced by the higher
good they espouse.

>And I believe you would be hard-pressed to "demonstrate" that your
>posting on this group, or holding women on a pedestal, creates some
>social benefit

No, I can't demonstrate anything of the kind.  But the point is that I
*do* believe that my postings have value for women and society, so I
am willing to risk the offense.  I am not just posting controversial
postings for my personal amusement, and to hell with what anyone
thinks.

>you've specifically stated that it is not necessary for someone to
>justify their feelings; you've stated that merely the fact that they
>feel that way is enough).

Perhaps it wasn't clear that I meant that the feelings are in
themselves sufficient to merit consideration.  I did not mean that
they were *the* deciding factor.  My point was that one shouldn't
dismiss feelings just because they are "feelings".

>	But what meaning does it have when someone is "offended" at
>what you do by yourself/with others?  In this case, they are
>"extending" their personal space to include you; that's the only way
>they can be involved enough to be "offended".

The idea is that we are all interconnected.  If I interact with you,
then what you do in private may have ramifications on that
interaction.  Certain drugs are illegal in the U.S. and Canada, even
if they are consumed in private.  One may disagree with this strategy,
but the point is that the state considers the ramifications of such
drugs serious enough that it feels the the need to intrefere with what
is done in private.

The pornography thread that partly spawned my posting was not talking
about people enjoying pornography in private.  It was talking about
organized events at universities.  The collective "personal space" of the
people participating infused the entire campus.

>	****That means that it is a form of control, a power-play, an
>absorption of you unto them!****

That can also happen.  And we have to be wary of it.  But as you
yourself point out, even this weapon can be put to good use:

>	Yet, there are times when I *would* approve of this tool to
>modify other folks behavior.  For instance, someone who says, "Oh,
>you know women really *want* it!" offends me.  I don't mind a bit
>telling them so, if it's possible that it might prevent a date rape
>in the future.

>In fact, though I know this is debatable, I think it is necessary for
>the ethical person *not* to submit to (unjustified) emotional
>blackmail.

I agree, but "blackmail" is when you are cajoled into an *immoral*
act.  But if someone uses the "offense" weapon to *stop* you from an
immoral act, (such as your above example), it is not blackmail.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


--
Post articles to soc.feminism, or send email to feminism@ncar.ucar.edu.
Questions and comments should be sent to feminism-request@ncar.ucar.edu.  This
news group is moderated by several people, so please use the mail aliases. Your
article should be posted within several days.  Rejections notified by email.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism