From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Shunning and Psy-war
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:15:30 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

           ** Submitted for Bruce Benning by Bruce Tiffany **
           --------------------------------------------------

>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
>Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:30:19 -0500
>Subject: Shunning and Psy-war
>
>Bruce Benning writes:
>
>BB> Now Rob, do you want to talk about emotional/psychological warfare of
>BB> this nature? [disowning, shunning, and threats thereof - RL]
>BB> It does exist. How would you respond to it?
>
>It depends on the situation and the people involved.  Sometimes
>the threat of alienation is strong enough to dissuade a person
>from self-destructive activity, such as conversion to Christianity
>from Judaism, or intermarriage.  Sometimes the threat backfires.
>
  Self-destructive activity? Having one's heart circumcised by the
  Lord to the Lord?  Self-destructive? Lord have mercy!
  - How is this action self-destructive?
>
>>RL> Psychological warfare is one more front on which enemies do battle.
>>
>>  So you do believe that the use of emotional/psychological warfare of
>>  this nature is proper for Jewish parents against their children. Is that
>>  what your comment means?
>
>No, it means that I don't oppose the practice.

 You mean like Aaron didn't oppose the practice of casting an idol, and
 allowing the people to sacrifice to it and in general run wild?
 Do you mean like old king Saul didn't oppose his men taking the spoil
 of the Amalekites? Are you aware that by not opposing sin, you support
 the sin you claim not to oppose? Do you mean like Eli not opposing
 his sons from sinful behavior.

> If disowning is a sufficient shock to bring back one's child,
> then I support it, i.e. the "Tough Love" approach.

 Sorry Rob. This sounds more like the "I haven't got a clue what LOVE is"
 approach to me.
 I suspect that the shunning of a child, and dramatizing their death, though
 they still live is a Diaspora facilitation of the commands to stone a
 child who strikes or curses his parent(s). Am I correct?

>Intentionally portraying parents as enemies is a rather standard
>technique.  I wonder if such people get their mandate from Luke 12:51-3 ?

  This was actually the case for the early followers of Yeshua. Family
  members would turn in the believing mom's, dad's, brother's and sister's
  to the Roman authorities. The "mandate" you suggest in Luke 12 has been
  misused by many of the cults in the world to separate families. This
  is NOT the case in Messianic Judaism. We would love an invitation to
  come over for bagels and coffee. :--)

>>  By your comment "enemies do battle", are you
>>  inferring that the child of Jewish parents becomes their enemy when
>>  the child believes in Messiah Yeshua?
>
>Only if the child works to convert Jews to other religions.

  So the child who is now a "Jew for Jesus" is not an enemy of the
  parent(s) unless they seek to bring Messiah Yeshua to other Jews.
  Is that what you mean?

>However, the possibility of bringing one's child back to
>Judaism often justifies continued contact.

  Rob, you make it sound like Judaism is more important than a
  relationship with God. You also make Judaism sound like it is
  just a culture, and not a community of priests. No insult intended
  by the comments, but just an observation.
>
>>  Does this mean it is a valid
>>  action for the children to use upon the parents in return?
>
>If the threat "If you convert, you'll never see your grandchildren"
>needs to be used as a last resort, it should be used.  'Shmad'
>[spiritual destruction, conversion out of Judaism] is not
>a matter to be taken lightly.

  Sounds like a curse toward the parent(s). Isn't there a law against
  that?


     Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

       -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
       ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------

     Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do
     what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what
     it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and,
     after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what
     he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect
     law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting
     what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he
     does. -James 1:22-25