HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: White vs. Black Dragon Kung Fu
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:48:20 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, HSS
Keywords: dragon white black kung fu kimewaza

(first followup got squashed, i think...)

In article <5408@krafla.rhi.hi.is>, hhv@rhi.hi.is (Eldark) writes:
|> First I want to apologize for a serious spelling mistake in my 
|> last posting.  Although just a single letter was misspelled, this
|> caused an error of 800 years!  
|> 
|> Where it says: "Kimewaza...developed in India around 400 B.C...."
|> Should read  : "Kimewaza...developed in India around 400 A.C...."
|>                                                         ^^^ 
|> I understand that the credibility of the story diminished dramatically
|> with this error. [...]

Not really. :-)

[ Standard folklore and buzzwords assembled into amusing lineage
  deleted; more amusing than the ultra-nationalist fiction that
  Japanese/Okinawan Arts are really Korean, anyway. :-) ]

You mainly need to figure if your instructor was himself duped
by this alleged Chinese character, but otherwise has some nice
things to teach, or if he's off into his own little fantasy land.

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."




-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
From: roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: CFV: rec.sport.fencing
Date: 16 Oct 92 17:50:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: pogo.13774
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

In article <Bw7yD2.JxG@uunet.uu.net> mece25r@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>This is the first call for votes for the newsgroup rec.sport.fencing.
>Hope no one's forgotten what it was all about!
>
>The final "consensus" seems to be to call it rec.sport.fencing to
                                                  ^^^^^

     I don't like this designation if the newsgroup includes
     kendo.  The purpose for practicing kendo is not to enter
     sporting competitions.  The tournament aspect of kendo is
     a very small portion of actual training.  Many people feel
     that sports kendo is not valid.  There are no high rank
     kendoist who feel that kendo is sport.

     Change the name to rec.fencing and I will support it.  If
     it is a sports discussion group please remove your reference
     to kendo.


-- 
Robert Stroud       roberts@usa.wv.tek.com
Obukan Kendo Club
Portland Oregon USA
From: Randy_A_Winney@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Under Siege
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 10:33:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1992Oct12.214459.3365@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
  <1bfds8INN50e@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu>
  <1992Oct14.024359.5894@craycos.com>

In article <1992Oct12.214459.3365@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>In article <BvzA0x.4r8@news.iastate.edu> twh73@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>>>Has anyone seen Seagal's new movie Under Siege?  IMHO t is the best one 
>>
>>	Saw it last night.  It is by far the slickest production.  The story
>>	line is good if not really too close to plausability.
>>
>
>true, but it seems to me that all these movies are headed towards being generic
>'die hard' clones. guns and bombs, guns and missiles; i guess there are
>freudian implications there somewhere.
>
>here is a senario i would like s.s. to try for his next movie:
>set in japan after WWII. american in japan since the 1920's. american wants to
>open an aikido dojo. local yakuza want a shakedown. local martial artists don't
>want/like american. lot of tension. lot of aikido, aikijujutsu, kenjutsu, 
>karate-do. some fight scenes in slow motion. american falls in love with the
>wife/sister/daughter of yukuza boss. more tension. kind of like _shogun_ or
>_sayonara_ set in 1945.
>
>now *that* would be a fun movie.

Sounds good...and Seagal could even make it semi-autobiographical. Young
American Aikido Shodan moves to Japan, runs Aikido dojo owned by Japanese
wife's family. Lots of action as Japanese students try to take cheap shots
at him in attempts to embarass him in his own dojo...Plenty of scenes of
ukes slamming into the mat at the end of Seagal's wicked Irimi Nage... 

winney@dal.mobil.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Chinese myths
Date: 14 Oct 92 00:59:30 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <1992Oct10.030851.12077@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>Dragon, pheonix and unicorn (which I understand doesn't
>translate well, being very different from the western unicorn...)
>Does anyone have any information on these mythical animals are
>like in the Chinese tradition? 

Maybe the unicorn is the ki-rin?  I don't know anything real about it, unless
the description in the AD&D Monster Manual is accurate.

The dragon in my hsing yi style is essentially a helical spiraling idea.  It's
also the outside of a circle, turning and possibly lifting something so it can
dump it back down -- like a tornado.

Incidentally, the alligator in the hsing yi I learn has been called turtle by
someone else, and a rather noncommital "water lizard" elsewhere.  Interesting
animal, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere but in hsing yi (swallow and
horse are two others).

Al
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kimewaza - "Fact or fiction"
Date: 9 Oct 92 22:45:42 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Oct8.184721.6417@oracle.us.oracle.com> glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo) writes:
>This is a common mistake in regarding the invention of martial arts.
>You are talking about Shaolin martial arts of which is transferred
>from the Indian monk.
>But a long time before that, in the Chou dynasty, approx around
>800BC, in the time of spring and autumn, there is offical history
>of martial arts in China.  One famous one is a female sword person
>in the Yue-country.

There is even some debate among historians about whether Bodhidharma
ever existed at all, but most seem to agree that there is reasonable
cause to think that he did. Whether he taught any martial arts at
Shaolin is more debatable, although, of course, there are a
lot of stories that he did.

The I Chin Ching (at least as taught to me) looks enough like
Hatha Yoga that I wouldn't be surprised if it was brought to
Shaolin from India; at the same time, there are differences
enough to make it plausible that the two systems have been
developed independtently for some time. (For example, many
I Chin Ching postures are essentially exact reproductions of 
certain Hatha Yoga postures, but the breathing and use of muscles
and so on is quite different).

I have read that there are some similarities between Indian
fighting arts and some Shaolin material, so perhaps there
is a connection; however, everything I've read so far
has been quite nebulous and non-specific. Perhaps others
can contribute descriptions that are more specific. I
have, for instance, never heard a description of a
specific training technique or set of fighting techniques
that shows other than incidental resemblance to Shaolin
material.

My current understanding of the loose consensus of writers
on the subject is that Bodhidharma probably brought
some training material with him from India, but that
there is a good chance that Shaolin martial arts are
entirely native to China. Don't hesitate to correct
me if you have better information.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Subject: Re: (what should I carry ?)
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 15:56:00 GMT

In article <24344@sybase.sybase.com> thorick@sybase.com (Thorick Chow) writes:
>In article <MARY.92Oct1095823@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
>
>>  This is about what one would 
>>expect from some fool who never read anything but the National
>>Enquirer, but I did think better of you.  If you check your facts
>>you will find that Super Soakers are not and never have been illegal
>>to possess or carry in Boston.  
>>
>
>Well, you're right.  I didn't bother trying to check the 'facts',
>so I owe all of the offended a big apology !
>
>Asided from my own gullibility, I suppose the sad thing is that
>I would believe that a ridiculous 'law' like that could even
>be TRUE !   
>THis kind of thinking IS getting trendy...

Yo, Mr. T!  Don'cha know that a Supersoaker in the home is 43 times
as likely to squirt a member of your family than a burglar?!?

Followups to talk.politics.squirt-guns.

-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...Ch'en worked in a drugstore on the
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |second story...and at noon each day he
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |would leave for lunch in an eccentric
55428                |                |way: he would stroll out the window..."
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Summary: Thanks.
Date: 9 Oct 92 16:42:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young) writes...

[rank requirements and background]

Thanks very much, Brian.  I have several of Mr. Lau's videotapes and I can 
fairly easily find some of the movements listed, and I'm sure I can 
extrapolate most of the others to get a flavor for the system.   So your post 
was very helpful.

I appreciate you taking to the time to post that.

> I don't know if you would be able to find a list of all Daito Ryu techniques
>around, they tend to be kinda tight lipped about it. I asked Tanemura sensei,
>when he visited, about Daito Ryu he said "Come to Japan".

Not surprised.

							regards,

							todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| VAX/VMS Software Support, Blue Bell, Pa.                          |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: 3RM7HL7@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (James D. Griffith)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: ? For MA's near El Cajon, CA
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:06:15 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University

Hopefully someone from the San Diego/El Cajon area can help me out.  I need the
phone number or mailing address of a Daniel Nolan.  He is a 5th degree in Tang
Soo Do and I believe has a training facility in El Cajon, CA.  I have recently
been separated from my instructor who tested under master Nolan thus I need to
contact him in order to get some names and numbers of others who have tested
under him who now reside in the MI, OH, PA, KY, or thereabouts area in order to
test for higher ranks.  Thank you.
From: brad@SSD.CSD.HARRIS.COM (Brad Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Chung Do Kwan forms
Date: 14 Oct 1992 13:47:55 GMT
Organization: Harris Computers Systems Division, Fort Lauderdale,FL
NNTP-Posting-Host: hcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com

In article <Bw2x64.FsL@news.udel.edu> jothomas@chopin.udel.edu
(John Richard Thomas) writes:
>
> There are two books written by Duk Sung Son on the Chung Do Kwan Style
> of Tae Kwon Do.  The first book he wrote with an American who's name
> escapes me.  The title of the book is "Korean Karate:The art of Tae
> Kwon Do".  This book contains all the forms up to black belt.  The
> second book Duk Sung Son wrote contains the black belt forms.

I think the book you are referring to is by Keith Yates (or by Sihak
Henry Cho). Both have books with "Korean Karate" in the title.

Anyway - I believe that Chung Do Kwan TKD uses the WTF forms
(Tae Geuk, etc ...).  If this is indeed the case, there are many
books that have the WTF forms.

I believe there are such books by Richard Chun ("Tae Kwon Do"),
Y. K. Kim, ("Tae Kwon Do World"), Tae Eun Lee ("Mastering Tae Kwon Do"),
Yeon Hee Park ("Tae Kwon Do : The ultimate reference to the world's
most populare martial-art"), and several others that I cant remember
offhand.  Pick up just about any issue of "Tae Kwon Do Times" (if you
can find it at your bookstore) and you will see people selling tons
of books and/or videotapes with the WTF and/or ITF forms!

Hope this helps!

______________________ "And miles to go before I sleep." ______________________
 Brad Appleton           brad@ssd.csd.harris.com       Harris Computer Systems
                            uunet!travis!brad          Fort Lauderdale, FL USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Disclaimer: I said it, not my company! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: gene@max.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: *** Advice sought on Wing Chun ***
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:30:11 GMT
Organization: Institute for Theoretical Physics


	I've heard that Wing Chun style was invented by a woman and is 
specially designed for people with little physical strength. Is it true?
_______________________________________________________________________________
 Eugene  N.  Tyurin  <+>                           gene@max.physics.sunysb.edu
 Physics Department  <+>   Two wrongs do not make it right, but three lefts do.
 SUNY @ Stony Brook  <+>                           Warren Siegel (unpublished)
From: byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Date: 9 Oct 1992 23:52:13 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4


To: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Cc: 
Bcc: 

In article <memo.673220@cix.compulink.co.uk> you write:
>In-Reply-To: <1b20t4INN2qs@uwm.edu> byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young)
>
>byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young) says ........
>
>Ueshiba did say that Aikido is 95% Atemi and Irimi ..

In the practice I've had in Aikido, which is not at all universal, the attitude
was sumed up by Westbrook & O. Ratti statement along the lines of "We don't
try to damage aggressors, even pain to the opponent is avoided if possible."
(I read that after I stopped Aikido, IMHO it hit the nail on the head)
Although in Yoshinkia use of pain was more prevelent, but even there the
intructor would say things like "somebody's acting hostile to you, buy 'em a
beer or something" (although  I don't think that would be too smart).
In other words defuse the situation, somebody tries to hurt you, control 'em
don't break 'em. This philosophy of harmony seemed to go down to the very
techniques.  Instead of hyperextending the joint or hitting 'em to soften and
make them less able to resist the throwing or restraining techneques, it
seemed to be apply dicomforting pressure to a joint and use superior body
movement and foot work to take 'em down which, if you know whats coming, is
more avoidable with a clear (read: not pain overwelmed) head.

That's were, I think, the "against the joint" and "instant pain" points come
in.  I think he means against the joint--HARD,and hurt 'em right away, through
use of strikes and presure point.  Maybe a beter way of putting it would be
that during practice of a technique you would want to 'tap out' throughout
the whole thing.  

>Although I have never experienced it personally I understand that
>free practice with our club Sensei is wierd because you get hit a lot
>of times during the techniques application.
>
>Instant Pain is a strange one ..... can you elaborate please.
>
>Techniques that go against the joint ... a lot of the Nage we a re
>shown .. if applied fast would shatter the joints quite fast .. they
>are only practiced slowly because of this danger.

But, do you know when, exactly, the joint would be damaged or even break.
I don't think that that is delt with in aikido, least not that much, not
that there is all kinds of breaking going on in Aikijujutsu, dealing with
resisting techniques and pain is more emphasised.  
>
>Aurelio 

I'm not trying to say Aikido is a bad art, I like it, its just less combative
then Aikijujutsu, in my opinion.  That's not bad at all, the world could use
alot more harmony.

-Brian
From: kwp@ukc.ac.uk (K.W.Pang)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Wong Fei Hung  - Fact or Fiction?
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:57:56 GMT
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.



Since I was a young kid, I have always heard stories of WFH. Stories of his
excellence in the martial arts and his involvement in China's history.
But since I have become older I have also become more sceptical about these
"rumours".  

Does anyone out there actually know the truth of WFH. Where did he come from
(Fatsun...?), who was he, what MA did he practised (Hung Gar...?), and are 
there still living students of WFH?

If you know, maybe you can direct me to the source of your knowledge.


Kam. :-)

P.S. How much of the HK movies depicting his life is true?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Chinese myths
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:04:29 GMT

In article <8348@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou) writes:
>>Dragon, pheonix and unicorn (which I understand doesn't
>>translate well, being very different from the western unicorn...)
>>Does anyone have any information on these mythical animals are
>>like in the Chinese tradition? 

>Maybe the unicorn is the ki-rin?  I don't know anything real about it, unless
>the description in the AD&D Monster Manual is accurate.

That's the name, but unfortunately I've little idea what it is like
(other than, like the bagua palm change...)

>The dragon in my hsing yi style is essentially a helical spiraling idea.  It's
>also the outside of a circle, turning and possibly lifting something so it can
>dump it back down -- like a tornado.

That's the same sort of idea as dragon in Sun-style bagua: Reaching around,
grabbing, etc... But the Cheng-style dragon is quite different. (Which
makes me think I'm missing some underlying, common feature.)

>Incidentally, the alligator in the hsing yi I learn has been called turtle by
>someone else, and a rather noncommital "water lizard" elsewhere.  Interesting
>animal, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere but in hsing yi (swallow and
>horse are two others).

Swallow also appears in eight-animal bagua styles, but it's often called
falcon or sparrowhawk. I didn't get the reason for the name, until 
I was on a hiking trip, and saw a falcon diving at its prey: The form
has the same opening/rising and then overturning/downward striking feel,
as a bird of prey's dive. 

                                                  Frank Crary
                                                  CU Boulder
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: weigand@pecan.cns.udel.edu (Steve Weigand)
Subject: Re: Why is there little discussion of striking technique on this net?
Keywords: You figure out what to put here.
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:22:12 GMT

The question that was posed here is: Why don't all us MA'rs that use 
strikes (as opposed to grappling) discuss the techniques of striking?

For me personally, I don't ask general questions about anything really
on the net. I find that asking general questions gets many many different
answers from many people. Most of the time these people have very 
conflicting viewpoints, and consequently, the discussion will cease to
be philosophical and end up deteriorating into a childish quarrel of
"my way's better than your's." 

But don't quote me, as I do occasionally ask general questions when
I risk it.

 - Steve Weigand
  (weigand@ee.udel.edu)


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!)
Subject: Re: Mystic names (was Re: Cost Differences???)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:31:56 GMT

In article <MHIRSCH.92Oct8133920@atomic.princeton.edu> mhirsch@atomic.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch) writes:
>>>>>> On 8 Oct 92 13:12:48 GMT, cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) said:
>
>CY> I, for one, do not "hang such mystic and power" on Japanese.  I
Same with some Chinese terms. For example. "ki"/"Chi"
I can use the word "CHI" and "potato chips" in one sentence,
				   ^^ Look D.Q., I can spell!
and no one who speaks chinese would think anything strange
of the sentence.  It has as much significance as "Eating
bean will give you gas", and means about as much! ;)


>CY> also find it silly to see some master of street-ryu karate running
>CY> around barking Japanese words - it brings to mind Merton's story
>CY> about the religious significance of the bound cat.
>
>CY> But Japanese is a subtle, fluid language, in which one word can
>CY> mean many things and have shades of meaning - at least that is
>CY> what I recall (and perhaps all) from my study of the language long
>CY> ago.  So I don't think it unreasonable to believe that a word such
>CY> as "sensei", although literally meaning "teacher, may connote more
>CY> than its literal meaning.  
>
>As proof of what you rea saying, "sensei" is a perfect example.  Its
>literal meaning is not "teacher" but "born before".  As Scott
>Machaffie says in the glossary he posted:
>
>sensei: instructor. sen means ``before'' and sei means ``born''.  The
>literal meaning of the word is ``one who is born before''; thus, the
>one who is born before you is your teacher.  This refers less to
>chronological age than to the teacher's wisdom.  In spiritual terms he
>or she is my elder, and thus my teacher.
>
>Knowing this makes "sensei" have many more connotations of respect and
>wisdon than does "teacher".
 Interesting point. and a good one at that. But might I
ask, whether or not the word "teacher", had other meanings
connotations in Ancient times. What I mean is these words
came from some where , such as western name, had meaning 
too originally, like Asian names, but has since lost it,
or is largely forgotten.  Sorry to be so off the wall, but
in my opinion. Teachers should get respect, be they call
sensei, sifu or teachers.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts