HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu (George Ferguson)
Subject: Re: Another question....
Reply-To: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu (George Ferguson)
Organization: University of Rochester.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:50:37 GMT


In article <1992Nov19.021404.22955@en.ecn.purdue.edu> lush@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush) writes:
>>[situation = thrower hits marker]
>It seems to me that the best way to handle this situation is to treat it
>like they do in college basketball. 
>[...]
>The problem is that markers, like people taking the charge in basketball,
>always think they are stationary.

I think if you watch the replays, the people taking the charge in
bball are rarely stationary either. However, the difference is (a)
some part of them, like their feet maybe, was stationary, and (b)
there's an official to make the judgement call. So while I agree that
in principle the contact rule is the same, a judgement call in a game
without officials is necessarily different than one with them.
Therefore saying that it should be "just like basketball" is not that
helpful.

George
-- 
George Ferguson                 ARPA: ferguson@cs.rochester.edu
Dept. of Computer Science       UUCP: rutgers!rochester!ferguson
University of Rochester         VOX:  (716) 275-2527
Rochester  NY  14627-0226       FAX:  (716) 461-2018
From: ho@cs.arizona.edu (Hilarie Orman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: Women's games to 19
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:31:27 GMT

In article <74606@apple.apple.COM>, dks@Apple.COM (dk smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov20.215027.16237@mprgate.mpr.ca> haman@mpr.ca (Anja Haman) writes:
|> So would it make sense (or sound terribly sexist of me) to suggest a smaller
|> field for women. I don't mean a drastically smaller field; just a bit shorter
|> ... maybe 10%. Wouldn't this have the effect of increasing the percieved
|> pace of the women's games? Any opinions on this?

First, it's not clear why increasing the perceived pace is a goal.  In
order to have games to 21 points instead of 19?

Second, coed play constitutes well over 50% of the playing time for women
here in Arizona, and I doubt that this is atypical.  We have a muscle
memory of field width and length; a 10% smaller field just for women's games
would be confusing -- there would be lots of out-of-bounds plays.

Third, seven women occupy about as much field space as seven men, and
they need as much field space in order to manuever.  I would expect
the pace on a smaller field to slow down a bit just from clogging, and
this would offset any other gain.
From: socolow@math.rutgers.edu (Paul Socolow @ Machine Ultimate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:22:09 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I would say it's a turnover in the endzone, since the reciever clearly
did not have time to "acknowledge the goal", as the rule about
throwing it away states.
   Now, if they drop it while raising their arms in victory (or
spiking it!), that's another story ;^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RRRRRR    U      U       Paul Socolow, Rutgers Univ. Machine Ultimate
R     R   U      U       socolow@math.rutgers.edu
RRRRRR    U      U
R   R     U      Ultimate 
R    R     UUUUU  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: krajnatg@infonode.ingr.com (Tom G. Krajna)
Subject: Re: Another question....
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:46:08 GMT

rjg@doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith) writes:

>By taking up a marking position and extending my arms I claim the space 
>above and below my arms as mine. If contact occurs in this area the
>thrower is at fault.

So if the thrower intersects this "plane" with her arm while throwing,
*anything* is fair game?  The marker can hack down on the thrower's arm
and it is a foul on the thrower?  What if the thrower just reaches into
this plane without throwing?

>The marker should not be required to dodge the follow through arm of the
>thrower. The thrower is required, by the hazardous play rule, not to move
>into space occupied by the marker.

Agreed.  But seldom does the marker scurry for cover as a long throw is
unleashed.  Rather, the typical "problem" situation goes something like
this (for a backhand, anyway):

    The thrower reaches back to make a long throw.  The marker sees
    this and starts shifting sideways.  The thrower commits to the
    throw.  The marker reacts by quickly sliding further over, at the
    same time swinging downward with her arm.  Contact occurs before,
    during, or after the moment of release, and does or does not affect
    the flight of the disc.  The two players have a nice chat, often
    focusing on whether the marker was still moving when contact occurred.

I remember hearing that one tournament tried disallowing the defense from
calling follow-through fouls.  Many would argue, however, that defense
today has a tough enough time as it is.  What to do?  Get open enough so
that when you throw long, there's no one marking you... :-)

--Tom K.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: natsch@leghorn.engin.umich.edu (Nathan Schultz)
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 12:37:15 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: natsch@leghorn.engin.umich.edu


In article <daemon.92Nov19030321@is.morgan.com>, Frank Revi <71551.2461@CompuServe.COM> writes:
> OK, net readers, here's the latest question:
> 
> A player catches the disc while toeing the line, establishing both
> possession and ground contact, then drops the disc as s/he continues to
> fall.  Similar case: player catches the disc on the run, establiching
> both possession and ground contact, then hit the disc with their knee and
> it pops out.   On the playing field, these are turnovers in any case,
> because after the completion, the disc is still in play.  But in the end
> zone, it's either a turn or a goal.
> 
> which should it be? 
> 
> 
I.M.H.O, it should be a turn, in any similar case.  This prevents "possession"
arguments, and is a fitting punishment for such inexcusable clumsiness.

*********
  Nathan  Schultz the Sigless
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: glenn@cs.sfu.ca (Glenn MacDonald)
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:01:57 GMT

In article <daemon.92Nov19030321@is.morgan.com> Frank Revi <71551.2461@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>OK, net readers, here's the latest question:
>
>A player catches the disc while toeing the line, establishing both
>possession and ground contact, then drops the disc as s/he continues to
>fall.  Similar case: player catches the disc on the run, establiching
>both possession and ground contact, then hit the disc with their knee and
>it pops out.   On the playing field, these are turnovers in any case,
>because after the completion, the disc is still in play.  But in the end
>zone, it's either a turn or a goal.
>
>which should it be? 
>
>

I'd tend to interpret these as a turnover, but I'd be quite
interested in other opinions.

Consider when a player catches the disc in the end zone, doesn't 
realize that s/he is in the endzone and attempts another pass.
If this pass is incomplete, it's a turnover and play continues.

So, I believe that the disc is alive until the player indicates
in some manner that s/he has scored (which there doesn't seem to
be time for in either of your examples).

Comments???

Glenn Mac Donald

(Yes, we're still playing at this time of year in Canada.)

Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: CRAAARB@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: an Nationals Preliminary Contact
Organization: Yale University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 18:07:34 EST

Hey there, I plan to be playing on one of the Toronto teams. I didn't understan
d if you want individual players to fill out surveys. Respond if you need me.
Aaron Craig - Yale FOG Ultimate (soon to be "Team Loser")
From: thomas.taylor@aquila.com (Thomas Taylor) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: A RULES QUESTION THAT
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:40:00 GMT
Distribution: netcomsv
Organization: Aquila BBS - Aurora, IL - 820-8344
Reply-To: thomas.taylor@aquila.com (Thomas Taylor) 


 > Second, whenever anyone establishes possesion in either end zone, they
 > must carry the disk to the goal line.

I hate to be a pedant, but this statement, while true for the situation
under discussion (D blocks and catches in Zone that it's attacking), is not
true universally.  If the disc is caught or picked up after a turn or pull
in the endzone that one is defending, one has a choice of playing from that
point or bringing it to the line.  And if the O catches it's own pass in
the endzone it's defending, it has to play from where it is.

-tt

 -- SPEED 1.3f #1048: Thomas Taylor -- Internet: thomas.taylor@aquila.com
From: hausmann@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: Disc Golf Course Guide
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:53:57 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

The PDGA Disc Golf course directory is available directly from the Professional
Disc Golf Association central administrative office in Memphis TN.

The address is 
PDGA
PO BOX 240363
Memphis TN   38124

901-323-4849

Tell Darrel 'hi' for me.

There is a 1990 version of the book and a recently produced supplement. 
I think the cost is around $8

In article <1992Nov17.205656.16354@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
pcwood@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Paul Wood) writes:
> A while back spoke to a fellow dgolfer about a book of courses and their 
> locations across the country.  I havent run into him again and I am wondering
> if anyone out there knows of such a book including its title, author, number 
> etc.  Thanks muchly.
> --
> 
>                        -=( Paul Wood )=-
>               -=( pcwood@astro.ocis.temple.edu )=-

-Tom
From: hausmann@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: Re:disc on the moon
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:19:34 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <17611@mindlink.bc.ca>, Rosse_Lapper@mindlink.bc.ca (Rosse Lapper) writes:
> Just noticed you work for NASA. Could you find out if its true that a frisbie
> made it to the moon on an apollo mission? model and colour would be nice to
> know as well. I can't seem to get any conf1Z<oirmation///x
> --
> frisbie@mindlink.bc.ca
> (604)222-4180
> wiser thru hyzer

To the best of my knowlegdge there is something like a hammer, a hawk feather,
a couple golf balls, in addition to the hardware to support the missions.  I am
not aware of any disc on the moon...again, I am only working from memory.

-Tom
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: wohler@sapwdf.UUCP (Bill Wohler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Date: 23 Nov 92 12:52:48 GMT
Reply-To: Bill Wohler <wohler@sap-ag.de>
Organization: SAP AG, Walldorf, Germany

ferguson@cs.rochester.edu (George Ferguson) writes:
>What about the same scenario on an out-of-bounds: receiver touches in
>bounds with the disc then drops it as they fall OB. Is it a turnover
>to drop the disc when it's OB? Technically, I suppose that you could
>say that if the receiver had not touched OB yet, then the disc was
>still IB, and so live, and so it's a turn. But if they touched OB
>before dropping it, then it was dead and no turn. Whew! I can just see
>"discussing" that one during a game...

george,

  on a related note, this list concluded that if you dropped a disk
  while carrying an out-of-bounds pull back to the playing field, it
  was also a turnover.  personally, i think that's silly, but it just
  goes to show: never, ever, drop the disk.

Bill Wohler <wohler@sap-ag.de> <sapwdf!wohler>
Heidelberg Red Barons Ultimate Frisbee Team
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton)
Subject: Re: Paying the price for getting horizontal
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:24:41 GMT

In <lg8753INNb32@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bharat@shadow.Eng.Sun.COM (Bharat Mediratta) writes:

>I prefer to lay out with one hand to catch the disc and
>one hand to break my fall.  Since I am right handed, it is
>usually my right hand that catches the disc and I reach out
>and grab the ground with my left hand.

I do this, too, but I don't think it's as effective, since you'll always
do better when you can get two hands on the disc, landing on your stomach
or elbows or whatever.

-- 
ben
fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Do not go gentle into that good night!
Rage, rage against the dying of the light! - DT
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: karenr@geronimo.sps.mot.com (Karen Ramondetta)
Subject: Re: UPA Nationals
Reply-To: karenr@geronimo.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola, Inc.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:57:09 GMT

In article 92Nov17154414@is.morgan.com, Eric Simon <70540.1522@CompuServe.COM> () writes:
>News from Nationals:   Open Division:
>News from Nationals:  Women's Division
>
>Finals:  Maine-iacs over Lady Godiva, 19- approx 15
>Semis:   Lady Godiva over Satori, 19-17
>         Maine-iacs over Block Party, 19-11.
>
>Comments:  Four straight years, the same four semi-finalists.  The
>Maine-iacs looked very impressive, especially there offense, which
>seemed to make so few mistakes.
>     The only exciting game of the semis and finals was the Godiva-
>Satori game.  Satori was up 7-4, but Godiva took a 10-9 half-time
>lead.  It was close in the second half, with Godiva keeping a 1
>point lead, and then 2-3 point lead, until the end.  With Godiva up
>18-17, Satori got the disc within one foot of a slight upwind goal,
>but threw it away.  Godiva converted and won.
>

Well, you got the statistics right.  "The only exciting game..."???? 
Did you even bother to stay for the finals??  The women's game was hot!
Every throw was battled out.  The Maine-iacs went ho for over 50% of
the time on Defense!  Even the last throw was a dive. (OK the throw on
that one was swill, but the count was high  :) )  While during the men's final
Boston seemed to give up about 15 minutes after the half.  They seemed to
mentally loose it.  
I don't mean to flame you but women't ultimate is just as exciting a game,
and in this case even more so. 

Karen

Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton)
Subject: Re: UPA Nationals
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:18:20 GMT

In <1992Nov19.215709.19320@newsgate.sps.mot.com> karenr@geronimo.sps.mot.com (Karen Ramondetta) writes:

>Well, you got the statistics right.  "The only exciting game..."???? 
>Did you even bother to stay for the finals??  The women's game was hot!

[...]
>I don't mean to flame you but women't ultimate is just as exciting a game,
>and in this case even more so. 

Hey, relax.  The original poster didn't say anything about women's ultimate
in general, he just said he thought the games he saw were dull.  There are
dull men's and women's games, just as there are exciting men's and women's
games.

-- 
ben							*****
fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu					***
Do not go gentle into that good night!			   ****   *
Rage, rage against the dying of the light! - DT	     ****    	   **************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: apcg1102@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Anthony Paul Curtis)
Subject: ultimate on TV
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:27:49 GMT
Keywords: TV ESPN

 I heard that the mens final is going to be shown on ESPN at some point in time.Does anyone know when it's going on air?
From: thomas.taylor@aquila.com (Thomas Taylor) 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
Subject: specific rules input soug
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:07:00 GMT
Distribution: netcomsv
Organization: Aquila BBS - Aurora, IL - 820-8344
Reply-To: thomas.taylor@aquila.com (Thomas Taylor) 

Frank Revi sez:

 > A player catches the disc while toeing the line, establishing both
 > possession and ground contact, then drops the disc as s/he continues to
 > fall.  Similar case: player catches the disc on the run, establiching
 > both possession and ground contact, then hit the disc with their knee
 > and it pops out.   On the playing field, these are turnovers in any
 > case, because after the completion, the disc is still in play.  But in
 > the end zone, it's either a turn or a goal.

I really question whether it is possible for someone to fall slowly enough
so that he or she demonstrates "sustained contact with a non-spinning disc"
(XV.3.) and has time to drop the disc before hitting the ground.  As for
the knee pop-out, I'd say the same thing; I think the scenario you're
describing would also involve losing contact before the "sustained contact"
barrier is crossed.  I think that this is a vague wording of the rules that
should perhaps be corrected, maybe to give a better sense of what
"sustained" means.

PS: how are you posting to the Usenet from CI$?

-tt
---
 . SPEED 1.3f #1048 . Thomas Taylor -- Internet: thomas.taylor@aquila.com
                                                                                                                    
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: CRAAARB@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: les input sought
Organization: Yale University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 01:06:43 EST

At first, I would say Goal, but when you think about the rule that says if you
throw it away while you're in the endzone right after a completion, it's a turn
 makes me think that possession isn't enough for a goal.
I've always wondered why that latter rule is. Hmmm. If latter=turn, so does
this situation. My vote is turn.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: CRAAARB@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: levance of Frisbee
Organization: Yale University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 01:02:41 EST

My answers to your survey, though brief 1)Most people see frisbee as a beach to
y or picnic diversion, IMHO. 2)Perfection Incarnate. 3)Playing Frisbee is seen
as a non-aeroabic nonstressful fun leisure activity 4)No. Ultimate players have
 learned to transcend the General Public asumptions. Maybe there are more gratu
itous hos to show off and prove we're atheletes. 5) No. 6) No effect 7)No effec
t 8) Peer pressure (I'm serious) 9) No.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: mds@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Mark Schultz)
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:52:30 GMT

In article <daemon.92Nov19030321@is.morgan.com> Frank Revi <71551.2461@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>OK, net readers, here's the latest question:
>
>A player catches the disc while toeing the line, establishing both
>possession and ground contact, then drops the disc as s/he continues to
>fall.  Similar case: player catches the disc on the run, establiching
>both possession and ground contact, then hit the disc with their knee and
>it pops out.   On the playing field, these are turnovers in any case,
>because after the completion, the disc is still in play.  But in the end
>zone, it's either a turn or a goal.
>which should it be? 

There are two relevant considerations here.  

1.  Possession in the end zone is a goal.  Contact with the ground and
control of the disc constitute possession.  Thus, goal.   However.

2.  The scoring of a goal must be acknowledged.  A throwaway prior to such
an acknowledgement is a turnover.  Odds are slim that acknowledgement took
place in this case, but the spirit of this particular rule is not targeted
to this case.

My personal opinion is.  Goal.  For example.  Suppose you catch the disc
in bounds in the endzone then fall out of bounds and drop the disc out of
bounds.  Clearly the determination of a score occured before you went out of
bounds, as if you had not dropped the disc there would be no issue.

Just MHO

Mark



Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: todd@chester.cms.udel.edu (Todd Sanders)
Subject: Re: specific rules input sought
Reply-To: todd@chester.cms.udel.edu
Organization: Marine Studies, University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:21:35 GMT

In article 92Nov19030321@is.morgan.com, Frank Revi <71551.2461@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>OK, net readers, here's the latest question:
>
>A player catches the disc while toeing the line, establishing both
>possession and ground contact, then drops the disc as s/he continues to
>fall.  Similar case: player catches the disc on the run, establiching
>both possession and ground contact, then hit the disc with their knee and
>it pops out.  
 On the playing field, these are turnovers in any case,

>because after the completion, the disc is still in play.  But in the end
>zone, it's either a turn or a goal.

	Once the disc has been received by an offensive player (as a completion is defined by the rules), in bounds and with ground contact established, the play is dead and a goal is scored.  What happens after this moment is inmaterial. 




Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton)
Subject: Re: Men's masters results
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:12:21 GMT

In <1ege3fINNja@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> cbrunson@vermont.East.Sun.COM (Chuck Brunson - Sun BOS Corporate Software Engineering) writes:

>  3.  Rude Boys (NE)

What was the deal with the Rude Boys?  I thought they were DQ'd for not
having enough players from one region.

-- 
ben							*****
fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu					***
Do not go gentle into that good night!			   ****   *
Rage, rage against the dying of the light! - DT	     ****    	   **************
Newsgroups: rec.sport.disc
From: rjg@doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith)
Subject: Re: Another question....
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:58:45 GMT

In <1992Nov19.021404.22955@en.ecn.purdue.edu> lush@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush) writes:
>>In article <BxKMqB.5y3@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> cmparris@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (Chris Michael Parrish) writes:
>>>Well, I have anther question already.... If a thrower makes a toss
>>>that results in his hand or arm contacting the stationary limb or body
>>>of a marker is it a foul? Also to carry it one step further, what if
>>>the thrower attempts to reach around the marker(who is not moving his
>>>blocking arm towards the thrower, but instead downward) and the marker
>>>hits the hand/arm of the thrower? Is it still a foul even though the
>>>thrower moved into the marker "space"?
>>

[Gregory suggests Basketball type rule]
>I really think that is simple.
>The problem is that markers, like people taking the charge in basketball,
>always think they are stationary.

The marker is not supposed to remain stationary. The marker is allowed to
move around to cover the offense as the offense pivots. Movement by the marker
should maintain the required distance. I find this is best done by limiting
my movements to a plane. Even then there are times when a good fake and
quick return pivot mean I cannot move back to where I started as the thrower
as pivoted into place.

By taking up a marking position and extending my arms I claim the space 
above and below my arms as mine. If contact occurs in this area the
thrower is at fault.
Why:
	If the thrower moves any part of their body through the space
	established by the marker (even on a follow through) it is
	hazardous play and the marker can call a foul. The marker should
	be able to move into the established space without a collision.
	The thrower has their own space and a disc width.

	By establishing a legal marking position the marker is claiming
	some of the space around the thrower. Once established the
	marker is entitled to this space and should be able to       
        move their arms up and down and their body laterally 
        without expecting a collision.

The marker should not be required to dodge the follow through arm of the
thrower. The thrower is required, by the hazardous play rule, not to move
into space occupied by the marker.

On rereading that I seem to have repeated myself a lot. I hope it is still
understandable.