HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Subject: Re: Scapular
Organization: UW Computing
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:42:22 GMT

scapulars (cloth with strings - worn over shoulder hence name based on the scapula bone) are "badges"of affiliation either with a religious order (often 3rd order) or of some other religious association.

First question would be what affiliation is signified by the scapular you have? Said question might best be answered by asking yourself how it came into your possession.

Use also varies in that there are "scapular" prayers i.e. the scapular becomes a physical prayer tool just as the rosary does (not implying the counting function of the rosary); it could also be simply a physical reminder of membership not unlike wearing a medal on a chain.

I realize that it is a fact of human existence that we're all dying but I do hope your curiosity re: the scapular is not hastening your death ("dying to know more about it) but if it is, I hope this scanty information slows the death process.
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From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Subject: Re: When will the new RC catechism be released in English?
Organization: UW Computing
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:45:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.211531.6830@erenj.com>, bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
|> [stuff deleted]
|> Which, in itself should be interesting, considering the usual hatchet 
|> job most translator types do...
|> 
|> In the line of supposedly "correcting" the translation of prayers and
|> texts, I wonder if they are retranslating the Confitior to make up for
|> the absolutely horrid chop job they did on it in the 1969 missal...???
|> 
|> Betcha not...
|> 

Come on ... no need to take potshots at translators nor to stereotype them.  There are several different styles of translation which are used to preserve different aspects of the text - literal, intentional, poetic.  There is never a one-for-one relationship between the original text and the translation ... an extreme example is Exercises in Style where the translator wrote entirely new chapters to mimic the word-play of the French (much to the delight of the original author).  Where the catechism is relat


ively straight-forward prose there should be relatively little problem giving a good/accurate translation once the English translation of technical terms is determined.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:55:36 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
              92 1:16 pm

Len,

    Sorry, I had unintentionally skipped over this one.

>
...stuff deleted
> I think we are getting away from the original question which was "Do
> the parents have to be married to get the child baptized."   And I
> think we all agree that the answer to that question is "NO".   Now we

agreed

> are discussing the pastoral aspects of the sacrament.  And here is
> where I think the intentionality and commitment of the parents of the
> child is important.
>
> Shalom,                                   Len Howard   -
> tas@pegasus.com
>

Important in what regard?  Not in the validity of the sacrament.

-Don
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:33:56 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)

Steve Creps <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU> writes:
>   J.J., the point has already been made in this discussion that the
>unborn baby is _not_ "part of the mother's biological system."

If I said, 'part of a biological system which includes the mother', would
it make more sense to you? -J.J.
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Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 19:15:15 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Operation Rescue

On Dec 7,  7:17pm, "Edward J. Branley" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Operation Rescue
} On the same subject, 20 or so OR protestors were arrested at the same clinic
} today.  They were trying for some holiday publicity, so they all marched on
 the
} clinic in Santa suits.  Six of the group arrested were charged with aggravated
} battery because they physically charged the clinic security guard with a
} makeship sleigh made up to match the outfits.

        The newspaper account I saw of this said specifically that they did
not affiliate themselves with a group.  Do you have different information,
or did you assume they were part of OR?
}
} aggravated battery means that they really committed a serious violent crime.
} In LA (as I'm sure in other states), simple battery is the crime that would
} result from a fistfight or pushing match.  An aggravated crime involves a
} weapon and injuries that result from the use of that weapon.  This means that
} the clinic guard was seriously injured by the actions of these protestors.  So
} much for your 'anecdotes,' Gordon.  These people are dangerous and violent.
} There is no other way to categorize this movement.

        The account I read was that they basically blocked him from coming
after them by surrounding them with their sleighs.  While admittedly
illegal, I seriously doubt they were 'dangerous and violent'.

        As for film footage, I have seen film footage of a policeman
BREAKING AN OR PERSON'S ARM.  How's that for violence?  I have also
seen reports of female OR protestors being strip-searched and harrassed
by jail guards.  A woman whose husband I met lost her baby after being
punched and kicked by a policeman in LA (she was 6 months pregnant, I
think).

        I can probably get you a copy of the video if you really want
it.

        By the way, you say 'the clinic guard was seriously injured', but
that is your conjecture, not fact (unless you have more information than
I've seen, which is certainly quite possible).  Considering the outrageous
charges I've seen levied against OR protestors before, I wouldn't make
such assumptions.

        For example, Randall Terry was sued under the RICO statutes in
an attempt to confiscate all his personal possessions.  This is a gross
abuse of power.

GZ
}-- End of excerpt from "Edward J. Branley"

PS there's an excellent book out from Our Sunday Visitor Press about
OR.  Recommended reading!  I don't have the title handy, sorry...

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:15:52 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
              "Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church"
              (Dec  4, 7:59pm)

Ed, there is a quantum difference between emergency baptism of
prematures (which I have done multiple times in 34 years of OB
practice) and the routine 'sprinkling' of a child of parents who have
not taken the trouble to solemnize their relationship before God.
I really believe that God will provide the grace for the salvation of
an innocent child that dies, regardless of the status of his parents.
We are now talking about the propriety of baptizing the child of an
unknown set of parents, who just walk in off the street and want their
child baptized.  We are not talking about life and death situations,
as that falls into the 'extraordinary' situation.  We are in the
ordinary.  And I repeat that there is more to baptism that the initial
sacrament.  If the parents are members of the church, and after
counseling by the priest, are able to indicate that they are really
believers, and are intending to lead a new life, and are waiting fro a
secular situation to resolve itself......[name your own reason]...
then I might see the priest being willing to baptize the infant.  But
as for some private, clandestine sacrament to avoid embarassment,
forget it.  Baptism is a part of a total life in Christ.  And the
parents have a responsiblity to demostrate their own commitment, THEN
expect the priest to be willing to accept their intentionality.

Shalom,                           Len Howard
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From: met48546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marc E. Talbot)
Subject: Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:02:12 GMT

jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:

>Do we or do we not have laws prohibiting murder, theft, and rape, all of
>which seem to be matters of morality and values.  How do laws designed to
>prohibit abortion differ significantly in intention from these laws?
>Peace and Happy Advent.
>John\

They differ significantly.  Go take a poll somewhere in your town.  Ask how
many people feel there should be laws prohibiting murder, theft, and rape.
Then ask about abortion.  I think that you'll find a massive agreement
about the first bunch, and something close to an even split for abortion
(or maybe a little lopsided, depending where you live).  Most anyone,
regardless of religious affiliation, will have some set of guidelines of
things which they feel are right and wrong.  When enough people agree on
one of these issues, it becomes law.  The reason it needs to become law is
that some small fraction of the population will not agree to it.
In the case of abortion, a majority of the people in the US believe that
it should be legal.  That's why its different from the above-mentioned
crimes.

Marc

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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:42:09 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)
              (Dec 17,  4:09pm)

Don, I must clearify my prior post.  What I intended to say was when
the Episcopal Church of the United States was established, the 1779
Book of Common Prayer contained no prayers or allegience to the King
or Queen of England.  The Anglican communion is a broad term for all
the similar churchs that exist in various parts of the world, tracing
their origin to the Church of England under Henry the 8th.  The
Scottish Episcopal Church varies widely in doctrine from the Church of
England, for example, which was why the initial bishop sent to the US
was ordaine in Scotland, and many of the parts of the BCP in the US
came from the Scottish rite.  [When I posted the answer the first time
I referred to the NEW BCP which has been misunderstood to be referring
to the 1979 prayer book, so I wish to present the information in a
more literal sense so context will not be so important.]
    With regard to your point, no Episcopal clergy in the ECUSA have
any allegience to a foreign power.

Shalom,                           Len Howard
                                  tas@pegasus.com
From: elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Asylum
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 92 23:31:06 CST
Organization: Seashell Software

jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:

> In article <L44cVB4w165w@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us> elendil@seashell.
> >More to the point, if 25 million Catholics, along with all of the Protestant
> >and Jews who claim to believe that abortion is wrong would instill that valu
> >strongly in their children and families, the clinics would close down due to
> >lack of business.  There are entirely too many wafflers in this country when
> >comes to abortion.  It's ok to speak of it in abstract terms, but all too of
> >things change when it's a family member involved.  At that point, lots of
> >exceptions to the belief tend to pop up.
>
> Everything you have said applies equally well to every sin, many of which are
> subject to government prohibition, e.g. murder, theft, rape.  The question is
> when a government decides no longer to protect persons against those who seek
> to harm them in these ways, what should a populace do, despite the fact
> that if they brought up their children better, they would not be murderers,
> thieves, and rapists?
>

You're making the assumption that all of those folks do indeed view abortion as
a sin, such as murder, theft or rape.  I submit that many do not agree with
that viewpoint.  That's why there is so much debate on this issue.  The women
who have abortions don't see themselves as murderers.  Perhaps if they did,
then there would be fewer abortions.  The laws in many states are not going to
change until attitudes change, and if you can change the attitudes, the change
in the law will be less important.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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From: jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco)
Subject: Re: Feminine language referring to God
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:01:22 GMT

75furlong@cua.edu writes:

>In article <92Dec8.203752est.12089@roll.db.toronto.edu>, jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes:

>> God is warrior, God is lover. Jesus calls God "Father, Abba (i.e. Daddy)",

>I'm confused - can women not be warriors or lovers? This does not seem to me to
>be uniquely "masculine" imagery....

Oops, sorry. I should have made that more clear. I certainly don't mean
to suggest that women cannot be warriors or lovers, only that God is depicted
as a male warrior/lover. My apologies.

Regards,

John
--
John DiMarco                                              jdd@cdf.toronto.edu
Computing Disciplines Facility Systems Manager            jdd@cdf.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto                                     EA201B,(416)978-1928
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:39:03 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
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jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
> I believe 
> it was the Donatist heresy of the fourth century (?) that suggested that 
> the moral character of the minister of the sacrmament could 
> undermine its efficacy. 

I read Len's criticism as not of the minister but of those speaking for the 
recipient.  Now, there is certainly nothing unorthodox about the idea that 
the intent and character of the recipient affects the efficacy of the 
sacrament, although baptism is an interesting special case of this, since an 
infant recipient per se is obviously not at fault, and there's only so far 
that one person can speak for another, no matter what that person's condition.

My own initial reaction to the question is that in absolute terms, the 
efficacy of the sacrament is not removed, but that its tangible effects upon 
the life and faith of the recipient may be undermined by the actions of the 
parents and godparents.  That is to say, that the issue is more of a pastoral 
nature than a matter of a valid or invalid sacrament.


Peace,

Amanda Walker


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation


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From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:04:03 GMT

In article <01GSDZVQMXDU8WWA33@umassd.edu> EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU (Liz Moreau) writes:
>>  Here is where the paradoxical, enigma wrapped in a mystery, thing
>>comes into play.  A fetus does have a tenuous, at best, "legal"
>>position.  An example of this would be the mother who is prosecuted
>>for child endangerment due to drug use while pregnant.
>
>Or how about a drunk driver who smashes into a car driven by a
>pregnant person, the baby is killed but the mom is okay.  I have read
>about cases like this where the drunk is charge with manslaughter for
>killing the baby.
>
This is a good example of situational ethics-where an amorphous "right"
such as abortion is based on one consideration of the foetus, and the
other where if you harm the foetus through an act not intended to
directly cause its abortion, it is manslaughter.  What a corrupt
way of looking at life.



-- 
Bryan D. Boyle     |Exxon doesn't pay me to voice their opinions...
Senior Engineer    |Semper ubi sub ubi.
bdboyle@erenj.com  |On a clear day, you can see forever on the Net...
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:41:00 EST
From:         Dick Corrigan <dickc@HPWAISVR.WAL.HP.COM>
Subject:      Aslyum (Sanctury)

>}  On Dec 15,  7:38am, Richard A Chonak wrote:
>} Subject: Re: Asylum (sanctuary)
>}
>} A few days ago, Fr Tom Carleton was sentenced to 2 1/2 years imprisonment,
>} with 2 years suspended.  Since he will not promise to stop protecting unborn
>} children, he is likely to serve the whole sentence.  A fellow defendant (a
>} layman whose name I forget), was acquitted.

>Richard, do you have an address where we can write to him in jail?

  Gordon,
       I dont know where Fr. Carleton will be going but I will find out.
  The following prisoners were arrested at a Rescue on June 20, 1992 in
  Hartford Ct. where two babies were saved. They were jailed on Oct 28th
  and have sentences of up to 6 months.

  Womens CCIN
  199 Main St.
  Niantic, CT. 06357
  Naomi Green #183467, Amy Boissenault #201489, Kay Trudell #201488,
  Lauri Hurley #183463, Sherry Lockerby #183440, Delores Teleski #183439,
  Audrey Mondello #218427

  Other prisoners for Christ in Massachusetts are;

  John McCarthy                      Mary Kelliher          Richard Cormier
  Essex Country                      Framingham M.C.I.      McGrath House
  Correctional Facility              P.O. Box 9007          699 Mass. Ave
  P.O. Box 807                       Framingham, Ma. 01701  Boston, Ma. 02118
  Middleton, Ma. 01949
  Unable to receive visitors

  Joseph Brennick                    Bill Cotter             Robert Filos
  Billerica House of Correction      Worcester House of      NE Pre-Release
  P.O.Box 565 G6                     Correction              Center
  Billerica MA. 01821                5 Hospital Rd.          251 Middle
                                                                 Turnpike
                                     West Boylston, MA 01853 Storrs CT 06269

  24-hour Information Line: (617) 849-6026 Office Telephone: (617) 849-6026
    Operation Rescue Office Hours: Monday - Friday, 12:00 noon - 4:00 pm

  God Bless

  Dick Corrigan
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From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Subject: Re: Asylum (sanctuary)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:33:15 GMT

In article <0yZBVB5w165w@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us>, 
elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:
|> "John R. Covert 14-Dec-1992 1127" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:
|> 
|> > It is my opinion that violence at clinics goes too far -- that civil
|> > disobedience in the form of chaining oneself in front of clinics is
|> > courageous -- but that praying the rosary in front of clinics is
|> > about as far as I'm personally willing to go.  Now, if DEC lays me
|> > off (not currently likely, I think), then I might be more willing
|> > to go to jail.
|> 
|> Wow, that entire case sounds like a mess.
|> 
|> John, I agree that violence at clinics goes way too far.  I'm saddened to see
|> that our Church is so involved in such extremism in Boston. 


Dear Ed,

Now, hold on!  Just to clarify:

Please note that John (above) doesn't accuse Op Rescue of doing violence; if I
read him right, he's only speaking in general terms about what type of "direct
action" he approves of / disapproves of.  

Speaking for what I've seen on numerous occasions, OR Boston has a solid record of
following Operation Rescue's principles of non-violent action.  

|> To Steve Barr:  Based on John's recounting of this event, it looks like the 
|> Church in Boston is very much participating in political activity.  Granted the
|> cause is good *this time*, but a prohibition should be a prohibition, lest the 
|> Church be viewed as hypocritical.

First, church law forbids priests from holding public or party office.  That's all
that's prohibited.  Other kinds of political activity (e.g., leading a
demonstration or heading a lobbying group) are open to Catholic priests.  

Second, I hope you're not suggesting that we Catholics (including bishops and
priests) don't have a right to protest when we have a grievance against some
public official!

Finally, was John even -reporting- anything that the Church *did*?  It sounds like
he's just relating what people (e.g., the pro-abort Attorney General) *claimed*
the Church was going to do.  

[Sorry to use up bandwidth with this topic, but I felt it's not right to let such
 a misleading statement about OR pass.]

-_RC
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From: tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Harry Connick Jr. )
Subject: electronic bible
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:36:18 GMT

Hi there everybody:

   First of all, let me say that it is nice to find that there is a group on
religion (my religion) that is not filled with flames. How do you all do it?
Anyway, I have a question for eveyone: Has anyone ever seen an electronic
edition of the New American Bible (or other "acceptable" Catholic Bibles) 
anywhere? You see, I talk a lot with my Protestant friends about religion and
one of their complaints about Catholics is that in general, we do not read the
Bible on our own. I am very guilty of this, but I can't find it in my to sit
down and read my Bible all the time. An electronic (ie, searching software)
would make my life easier.
   Also, I am wondering if any of you know of a good study guide/subject guide
for the Bible for Catholics. What I am looking for is something that could 
direct me towards how to go about reading the Bible and what I should be looking
for in it. It just doesn't keep my attention to sit and read parts when I 
really don't know where to look for things.
	I would appreciate any comments or answers to my questions.


		In His name,
		thomas ehardt
		tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Myth exposed!!!
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:58:30 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
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In article <BzBBoJ.DyL@news.udel.edu>
15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr) writes:

> "Gregory XVI was an austere, learned monk who was hostile
>      to modern trends (he refused to have railways in his
>      domains, calling them 'chemins d'enfer')."  
> 'His domains' means the Papal States. I do not know French,
> but it appears that 'chemins d'enfer' is a pun. Railroads
> were called 'chemins de fer' meaning 'roads of iron'. I
> suspect 'enfer' is related to the English 'infernal'

Actually, 'enfer' means 'Hell' -- since railroads were called 'chemins
de fer', meaning 'roads of iron', 'chemins d'enfer' literally means
'roads of Hell'.


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"Den Glaubenden gehoert die Ewigkeit."
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