From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: what is the meaning of Genesis3, for real dough!
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:24:38 GMT

In article <laacmsINNb58@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> 
danoc@earlybird.Eng.Sun.COM (Dan O'Connell [CONTRACTOR]) writes:
> Can we see patriarchy trying to suppress matriarchy?
>It depends on how you view the story. If god is male, then
>perhaps patricarchy, if Eve were manipulating Adam or if
>the serpent were female, then perhaps matriarchy, or even
>if that were true it could be a patriarchal apology and/or
>warning against the dangers of matriarchy.

Yeah, and of course the Bible is loaded with what amounts to warnings to
men about what might happen if women were to gain control as in matriarchy. 
The movie Barton Fink is a play on this misogyny/gynaphobia and the book
of Samual and fishmongers. Maybe we'll discuss that next.

>Let's not forget that some of paganism was goddess-centered
>that women were (and sometimes are) considered more in tune
>with nature and mystery, etc.

Absolutely. ::B^}

> Was it a setup?
>Absolutely. <Surveying the room, re-lighting pipe>
>Maybe by..............the serpent.
><Stunned Silence>

Haaaaaaa. No. Ya know, I neva did like those creepy things anyway. Ever
since that cotton mouth chased me down once. Did I ever tell ya that
story, well, see it was some fo' hunded and fity tree years ago to
taday, yas sir ... well I wus jus a youngin then ... might handsome in
my youth ya know, yes sir, yes sir ...

> Did Adam and Eve have a choice?
>No. God created them the way they were, if god is omniscient,
>he knew the choice and (his) reaction in advance.

Yeah, but even we can predict the outcome, don't you think? I mean after
all, putting the tree right in the middle and telling them about it and
then sending the snake to do the dirty work.

> Where they legally competent to judge the results of their actions?
>In advance? No. After the fact? Yes.

Both are important legal concepts. Mentally competant during the crime
and mentally competant to stand trial. I guess you are saying Adam and
Eve and the snake are competant to stand trial but would get off free of
guilt because they were innocent at the time of the crime, if it was a
crime. And, a, what about that crafty snake ...

> Did the serpent know more?
>Apparently, the serpent knew more than god.

Interesting. Are we worshipping the wrong one after all these years?

> Did the serpent lie?
>He wouldn't be convicted in a 20th century court if it
>were held that Adam & Eve were "adults", if it was held
>that A&E were insufficiently capable adults, i.e., children,
>then he would be culpable.

Aiding and abeding the corruption of minors? But, the snake didn't lie,
did he? He just forgot to tell Congress the whole story, don't you
think? Was he, a CIA operative? Was he, g.bush? Biblical coverup? Single
gun theory? Cuban operatives? Nazi connections?

> Were the three punished and if so how severe were their punishments?
>They were punished in that they were estranged from god,
>not to mention the bit about farming, menustration, and oh,
>of course, death.

Oh, death, yea, a ... But, about this death thing. Is that really a
punishment? And separation from God, creation means separation, doesn't
it? Is the life of human being really a punishment? Joys and sorrows of
the world, just pass on the sorrows? Oh the evil and vile life of the
flesh, just let me live a bit longer please? Life eats life and produces
death, thus life is by nature evil?

> Is there a trinity here?
>Perhaps an artificial one.

Adam-Eve-Serpent?

> Is expulsion from Eden symbolic of expulsion from the uterus at birth?
>Absolutely.

I knew there was some way to bring Freud into this! Now, about this
serpent, hmm, vat is dis serpent, yah? Fallus, perhaps?

> Did they commit a sin?
>The result of their actions was "sin", i.e., 
>estrangement from god. The estranged themselves
>from god by listening to the serpent as an equal
>of god.

Hmm, sin = estrangement? Is it sin to be born FROM mother through the
birth and love canal? Separation from mother at birth sin? And listening
to the serpent, you yourself said they were as five year olds. How could
they know? They were just babies. Surely you can't condem? Does a baby
sin when it is born? Does a mother sin for pushing the baby out?

> Did the serpent have knowledge of good and bad?
>Absolutely. This is confimed by the serpent's careful 
>wording and urging of Eve to eat the apple. It would
>seem to show that the serpent knew beforehand what
>the consequences would be, else why try and trick
>Eve?

The serpent could have been Buddhist and was just being true to the
meaning of serpent. You haven't heard a peep from serpents since, have
you?

> If you were Adam or Eve, what would you have done?
>Eaten two apples. Actually, I would have done whatever
>god had previously ordained.

He said you should not eat the fruit because it would bring death. How
would you know what death means without knowing of good and bad? And if
a beautiful naked woman walked up to you with fruit, how could you
refuse? And should children always obey their parents? Forever?

> And what about the tree of life? Attainable or not?
>Nope, not attainable: "Well, if you had been a good
>boy/girl, I would have given you this present I've
>never get it." -- It came into existence in order
>to deny giving it.

Nice. I see you adhere to the just and fair father model. ::B^}
Do you think it was just made up to, as you say, point out what could
have been if you just behaved yourself? Children should be seen and not
heard?

> How perfect was Eden anyway if Adam and Eve had no
> knowledge of good and bad?
>It was a perfect sandbox. On a perfect day, with
>two perfect children. BUT, that was it - like
>a still-life photograph.

Kind of like life with the Quayle family? Oh you have such nice and
quiet children. Yes, we beat the fear of God into them regularly. It hurts
us more than it hurts them, but you have to teach respect and fear. It's
the only way, otherwise they grow up and join the ACLU and grow long
hair and vote libertarian and stuff like that. You wouldn't want that
now would you? I don't know what we're gonna do with the little girl
though, she's gonna be such a tease, you can tell already, always
tempting the poor boys. Well, we do our best, at least they'll remember
us.

>Here's the part I never knew before:
> Then [god] kicks them out of the garden, (symbolic of birth?),
> and says in parting, 3:22"Now that the man has become like one
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and
> ^^^^^
> take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!" (23)So the
> Lord banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which
> he was taken. (24)He drove the man out, and stationed east of the garden
>Like "one of us" ?????? Verrrrry interesting. Is god using the
>"royal we" or are there more than one of him there?

I think He's is talking to someone, it's not the first time. But who?
The serpent? Some other animal? Some other God or even Goddess? Us? Do you
suppose He has the Goddess, the mother of us all, tied up in the corner
of the Garden? After all, Yahweh is a war God, there is plenty of
evidence for that. Maybe He's just talking to His trees. I wonder what
other kinds of trees He's got?

>In any event it is interesting that the serpent seems to know
>more about what's going on than god does; it is almost as if
>god is zeus and the serpent prometheus.

Yes, a Greco/Roman connection already. Makes you wonder.