From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 00:07:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.133853.11317@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.160848.4138@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug31.080602.12256@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug29.150934.11390@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>
>>>>I didn't start out particularly sympathetic
>>>>to Kuwait, but the combination of its behavior during and just after the
>>>>war wrt Israel's decision to hold its fire in the interest of achieving
>>>>common goals, which was the most honorable behavior I've seen out of any
>>>>Arab country except Egypt, and Mr. Mohammed's articles, have made me
>>>>rather like the place. That, and keeping you from attacking someone I
>>>>respect independently of his country for his willingness to discuss
>>>>things reasonably, are my only interests in the question.
>>>
>>>I fail to see Kuwait's the honorabilty in Kuwait's behavior towards
>>>Israel in teh Gulf war. did you actualy expect them to bithe the hand
>>>that helped them get back to their throne??
>>
>>That is exactly what, based on the behavior of some other Arab countries
>>I've seen, I expected. I didn't get it. Kuwait surprised me greatly by
>>showing some degree of appreciation.
>
>Well, I think that although it was better than ever it was not even
>close to noble. I was not so surprised because the Kuwaitis were really
>in great trouble and couldn't afford to antagonize US (or even Israel).
>I think that it was fairly predictable that they wouldn't mind if Israel
>would have reacted to Iraq's provocation - that's not NOBILITY in my book.
>They sure made progress - but one should not lose one's head from joy
>these were hard times for the Gulf States and they might return to their
>old self. (I think that's just what they are doing - PLO and Syria gets
>money again as I understand it).

I don't think the PLO still gets Kuwaiti money. Syria does, but Syria
also helped out Kuwait during the war and it's only expected that Kuwait
remember that as well as remembering Israel's restraint. And I'm not
losing my head for joy; I'm saying they're doing better than most of
the area and should be encouraged so that they start doing better yet;
you have a problem with this?

>>>Kuwait did the minimum of not blatantly cursing Israel mainly for the
>>>sake of American ears.
>>
>>Their reasons are impossible to determine; I think you're wrong about
>>them. The act of refraining from blatantly cursing Israel is better than
>>we've gotten from an Arab country besides Egypt in a century. Don't argue
>>with progress, even if it's not as great as you'd like.

You didn't answer this. I don't think you had an answer. But think
about it.

>>In point of fact, Kuwait did more than that. A Kuwaiti official on a
>>CNN broadcast at the time publicly thanked Israel -- by name, which is
>>still something most Arab countries will not use -- for its restraint,
>>and recognized how difficult a thing this was to ask of a country, which
>>is a lot better than the United States did. Immediately after the war,
>>another CNN report said that Kuwait was willing to consider a peace treaty.
>
>Well, I think you are too optimistic and mistook some wartime CNN hype
>to be truth - I wish all that beautiful things they said then was close
>to reality. (Scud Launcher & Patriot Success reports/New World order etc.)

I'm not talking about what the CNN reporters said; I'm talking about
what Kuwaiti officials said on interview. 

>>>Maybe in their hearts they finally understood
>>>what we Israelis are facing all these years (financed by their oil)
>>
>>Maybe they *have* finally understood it. What their oil has to do with
>>this, I have no idea. What you think is wrong with understanding Israel's
>>point of view, I am not sure.
>
>I think understanding Israel's point of view is GREAT - I just think
>that they only got a *glimpse* of it, much too little to reform them.
>I hope I am mistaken bnd they understand it better.

And I think you're giving them no incentive to do better if you do not
encourage them when they make a beginning.

>Their oil was used in order to finance a great deal of what the PLO and
>the "Confrontation Line" States (Syria and Egypt in the past) done to
>Israel - terror, armament, propaganda. [ I think using it for helping the
>Palestinian Refugees to settle in their places or build them new homes
>were much more appropriate].

I think you're making the same mistake I blasted Anisa for a few articles
ago -- it is not her money nor your money to decide what it is appropriate
to finance. It is Kuwaiti money. They are perfectly entitled to do what-
ever they like with it. I am not happy about their spending it on the PLO,
and I can reasonably consider it an act of war if they overdo it, but I
would not presume to dictate to them what would be "more appropriate" a
way to dispose of what is theirs, lest they turn around and start telling
me what is a more appropriate place to dispose of Israeli property and I
have no answer for them.

>>>their change of attitude towads Israel is not to be hailed as nobility
>>>- if they were unilateray stop all hostility against Israel and ready
>>>to sign a peace treaty with us - that would be noble & honorable.
>>
>>They've said they were willing to discuss a peace treaty, and I have
>>not seen Kuwaiti shells over Safed recently. Nor, for that matter, have
>>I seen Kuwaiti money funneled into the PLO the way it used to be, not
>>since the Palestinians betrayed Kuwait during the war. I'll settle for
>>that as a start, gladly. Progress away from bad behavior should be
>>accepted and rewarded, and by scorning it until it is completely up
>>to your preferences, you're shooting yourself and Israel in the foot
>>and seeing to it that we'll not get any more progress.
>
>As a start it's OK, but no more than OK, I accept that they did
>progress and I do not scorn this progress - I scorn the exaggeration
>that some Isarelis and Jews (like yourself) are making of it.
>You should set your expectations realistically so you won't crash in
>disappointment. :-)) [Hope you won't]

I said that I considered them "more honorable than any Arab country
except Egypt." I don't think that's overdoing it. This has less to
do with Kuwait's being better than acceptable and more to do with there
being no other Arab country that's taken even the first steps. I'm
considering saying something similar of Jordan, which is being respec-
table at the peace talks, but we'll have to see how it comes out.

Section on the dangers of compromise with those who are out for your
blood deleted. All I was advocating was *words*, David. It will not
put Israel in the position of accepting a Trojan Horse for you and
me to say on the net that Kuwait did something rare for an Arab country
and that is a good thing.

>>>David.

>>	-Nora
	
>David.

	-Nora
-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."