HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: xerxes@netcom.com (MICHAEL A. BRENNAN)
Subject: Re: HIMMEL MOTOR INFO
Keywords: Himmel Field Current Regulator Board
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:55:10 GMT

  Hi,
    we're looking for any information concerning the testing and repairing of 
    the little circuit board inside the case of the Himmel Three Phase Asyn-
    chronous Converter(motor generator). The generator and its circuit board 
    are both made in Germany and the board has a few unidentifiable parts. 
    We're told that these parts are no longer available since the company 
    that made them went out of business. Himmel, in Germany, is of no help. 
    They hold firm to the idea of not repairing the board, but instead, mak-
    ing us buy a new one for $500. The board only measures 3"*4.5" and has 
    about 40 components- 3/4 of those are recognizeable resistors, diodes,
    and capacitors. The only logic chip is fortunately made by RCA. The board 
    in question resides in the larger case on the right side of the generator 
    where the power lines and motor coils are connected. We have a schematic 
    from Thermwood, the company that sold us the generator some years ago. 
    The model numbers on the schematic match those on the board, but the lay-
    out and number of parts are different.
         Is there anyone out there that has worked on these boards? or has 
    anyone made a replacement board at a substantial discount? 

    Here are the specs on our particular model:

    HP:28                      OUTPUT:       there are two type numbers 
    RPM:3530                   KVA:22        listed on the ratings plate:
    CYCLES:60                  300 CYCLES    10JPG160/270 & 2GL160/230
    PHASE:3                    380 VOLTS
    VOLTS:230/460
    AMP:65/325

The title of the schematic is "Feldstromregler" which apparently means "field 
current regulator".The parts on the board that we're really curious about are:

1) a little black box labeled VAC  ZBK409/001-03-PF 288 . It has six leads.

2) A canister (we think it is a scr) labeled TAG 676 800 3879. Two leads, 
grounded case.

3) a package shaped like a 7805 5V regulator labeled PTD PD TAG 69. It has 
two leads. The label is also not very distinct, and could be different.

4) two small three lead canisters, one labeled BCY58V11 7L, the other  
BCY78V111.

                         Thanks in advance,
                            Michael Brennan.
 

 P.S. This is my first post on the net. Any comments are appreciated!



Newsgroups: alt.industrial
From: pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft)
Subject: Re: Industrial music, hey!
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 23:09:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.213008.12219@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dskimish@nyx.cs.d
.edu (David Skimishara) writes:
>
>hey, the only time I like to hear NIN is when it's being crushed under a
>steam roller (believe me, I've done this, and the sound was great)  I'm
>glad we can use this group as a discussion about the direction of
>industrial
>(oops) music, and culture in general
>Dave (no .sig, bit I'm working on it)
>

Now That's Industrial Music!
 Now THAT's industrial music
28>(ps. did you do this with PHM or their new one, Broken - the latter is
29>even more dangerous as crushing it will release even more flaming gobs
30>of cheeze as they come spurting out)
31>
32>I just can't see either why people take NIN seriously.  All the songs
are
33>about Trent's relationship problems. All of them on PHM are constructed
34>around basic rock melodies, with stupid distorted sequencers going off.
35>Now he's all gone metal - more girl trouble, more rock chords/melodies
with
36>a touch of hardcore. PLEASE TELL ME, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH
37>INDUSTRIAL MUSIC!!!!!  Maybe he should join Bon Jovi or something.
38>
39>The only way NIN can ever be industrial is through large-scale
40>hammering on their CD's, maybe involving power tools.
41>
42>I just can't see it.
43>P H I L  B A N C R O F T
44>
45>TRENT REZNOR?
46>ON THE DATING GAME?
47>
48>Have a grating experimental ambient day.
Newsgroups: alt.industrial
From: pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft)
Subject: Industrial music, hey!
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 05:20:02 GMT


Hey, I guess this _is_ a new group, so...
Hey - any of you into other stuff besided gristle?
No, and I don't mean poseur shite like new Ministry or NIN...

Like anybody into Hafler Trio, Nurse With Wound, Current 93?
Cheers
THA BANK-MEISTER
P H I L B A N C R O F T
-Matrix Processing is my LIFE MAN!
have an industrial day

Newsgroups: alt.industrial,alt.postmodern
From: pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft)
Subject: Nova Serial Killer Special Tue Oct 13 1992
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 01:19:58 GMT


Did anybody see the special on Nova Tue. night? (Mind of the Serial Killer)

Well it was great but a little commercialized.  I could have used some
interviews, but at least they showed ample pictures of the victims!!!!!!!

The main focii were:
        1) Characterization of serial killers:
           They were described as on the surface "functional" - keeping a
           low profile, doing things for survival mostly.  Most were abused
           by parents and/or others at an early age.  Otherwise, quite nice
           and personable people.

        2) Why do serial killers kill: They enjoy the "hunt": i.e. finding
a
           "vulnerable" victim.  The actual kill is secondary (although
           essential to completing the "project").  They work themselves up
           from small children to adults - each poses a greater challenge
           and provides a greater thrill.  Also, many murders involve some
           sort of sexual/ necro gratification.

        3) However, most acts are not "planned" or plotted out, only
           specific techniques are applied.  Spontenaity is part of the
           "thrill".


Have you hugged your serial killer today?

P H I L B A N C R O F T
_&^_&%_&^&%&^_%_&^_&%&^_&%

KILL MOTHER-FUCKING DEPECHE MODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newsgroups: alt.industrial
From: dskimish@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Skimishara)
Subject: Re: NIN + Ministry poseurs: Not! (was: Re: Industrial Music, hey
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 04:35:53 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.014224.19655@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> dnakamur@nyx.cs.d
.edu (Damo Nakamura) writes:
>
>Let me ask you this Phil:
>If Ministry and NIN are not "true industrial" how could Skinny Puppy
>could be considered any different?
>
>Granted, we probably both think SP is of better quality
>but come on: by your standards "Rabies" and "Too Dark Park"
>are sort of "clicheed" and "Last Rights" could easily serve as the
>new soundtrack to "Blade Runner".  Plus they're sort of popular.

oh, god forbid anyone should listen to anything that is popular, or not
listen to something just because it is popular.

>
>You see, with your ranting about "pop" vs. "real" industrial
>you back yourself into a corner of endless classifications.
>(which then lead to contradictions).
>
>Just lighten up and listen to the music!  Granted, I know you despise
>NIN and Ministry, I _still_ don't understand what makes them "not
>industrial".  Ministry uses and has used guitars to express their own
>version of industrial terror.  Quite effectively on their middle albums,
I
>might add. They also use drum machines, etc.  But who cares what they
>use!!?!?! Just _listen_ before talking next time OK Phil?
>
>P.S. Phil's insistent, oh-so -alternative behavior is exactly the same o

>those "poseur-types" he slags on so much :>
>
>DAMO LA DANCING FLATWURM
>:>
>W
y
yo damo, bite me ok pal.  phil just tried to express his opinion that this
group should be for the discussion of "less popular" groups. so if you
want to discuss NIN, then go to rec.music.industrial where they discuss
that stuff.
Dave -in search of a cool .sig
From: EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: Rave?
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:42:07 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.144417.27003@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft) writes:
 
<much deleted, mercifully>
>
>The way I see it, industrial culture is occupied with the problems of the
>present and the immediate future.
>Cyberpunk is occupied with the problems of the future.
>Rave tends to ignore all problems.
 
Lets not forget Techno culture! (True, Techno is the main type of music played
at raves, but it is not the only kind of music played at raves, nor is
Techno consistently played at all raves).
 
Rather than characterizing Techno by concern or lack of concern for problems,
a better way to look at it is to say Techno is *interested* in the future.
The Techno wave arrives at the expense of the Industrial wave and
is viewed by Industrial culture with the same suspicion as the Industrial
wave was viewed by Agri-culture (which it eventually superceded).
The "crop" of ravers who view rave and Techno as a return to hippy idealism
of the '60s are a profound embarrasment to this Techno fan.
 
>Ergo rave is not compatible with cyberpunk/industrial culture.
 
And for the reasons cited above, I'd say Techno is very compatible with
cyberpunk culture. And just as the agriultural wave and industrial wave
have co-existed, so can Techno and Industrial culture be somewhat compatible.
 
>It's just that some magazines like oh, I don't know, Mondo 2000, lump
>all these things together _w/o thinking_
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>M2000 should be required reading for the rave generation. Let them
>suffer.....
 
Yes, they should suffer. For further reading on the basis of the Techno
philosophy I allude to here, read Toffler's _The Third Wave_.
 
>P*H*I*L  B*A*N*C*R*O*F*T*
>JAMES BROWN IS ALIVE
 
--Eric
 
eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu
Detroit, Michigan  USA     "Pancakes in Detroit!" --Not David Bowie
Newsgroups: alt.industrial
From: dnakamur@nyx.cs.du.edu (Damo Nakamura)
Subject: Industrial Culture (was Re: Now that I think about it)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 03:13:36 GMT


I have received several mail messages enticing me to check out
alt.cyberpunk as a source for dark, futuristic culture.  Great
stuff!  Some of the people on there are so delightfully weird! We have
students, real authors, etc. on there.

So if any of you indcul ppl want, check this out!  If you have
any "cyberpunk" posts here, make sure also to post them to alt.cyberpunk
as well so more people will see them.  That will hopefully facilitate
discussion on both groups.

Although alt.cyberpunk is somewhat devoted to "industrial culture", it's
mostly geared to theories concerning the "Information Age" rather than
the "Industrial Age".  Computers, VR, and the "Net" dominate - it's
a really happening discussion.  But it doesn't seem to include stuff like
SRL, TOPY, Re:search, etc.  That's ok as I hope we can continue to
talk about that stuff here.

(anti-industrial statements for PHIL)
Smile!
Have a nice day!
Peace, Love, and Kisses,
DAMO LA CLAUN
From: jpennell@axion.bt.co.uk (John Pennell)
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: Vera Lynn's
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:17:51 GMT
Reply-To: jpennell@axion.bt.co.uk (John Pennell)
Organization: British Telecom Research Labs



Okay, let's stop the confusion for transatlantic (and other) friends!

For many years, "cockney" rhyming slang has been in use in London.  There are many
examples of this,

Apples and Pears - Stairs
Hampton Heath - Teeth

The use of "Veras" and "Salmon" is exactly the same,

Vera Lynn - Skin
Salmon & Trout - Snout

It is quite permissible in the slang to use just the first word of each
slang phrase to convey your intention.

i.e. 'Scuse us, jus' goin' for a jimmy.

Would roughly translate as

Oh, pardon me, old chap, I'm just leaving your presence to urinate,

Jimmy-riddle - piddle, piss, urinate etc.

<GRIN>


Jon

PS - I feel this thread is becoming "Pony & Trap" - let's drop it ..... ACIEEED!
Newsgroups: alt.rave
From: trailmix@cs.montana.edu (Foster)
Subject: Re: New York Raves/clubs requested
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, MSU, Bozeman Mt 59717
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 02:23:23 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.142724.18643@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> laural@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (laura.l.la gassa) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.092600.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kzimmerman@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Oct8.062957.17320@Princeton.EDU>, ramirez.Princeton.EDU!penrose (Christopher Penrose) writes:
>>> 
>>> Limelight on Tuesday is  
>>> techno/industrial, but I guess you have to be screened by a panel to get in.  
>>> Worthless.
>>
>>Since when? I can't think of a time people weren't let into Communion. I mean
>>on a Tuesday night, most of the people are college kids and Westchester brats
>>and it gets might empty after 2.30 AM or so. There's no selectivity though.
>
>I personally have never had any problem with getting into the the Limelight,
>but I know Bob and other male friends of his have had "experiences" with
>the doorman.  This was a long while ago, if I remember correctly.
>
>Laura

Not to be a PIG Laura, but unless you have one eye, no legs, and 
a big hairy mole on your nose, you're going to get in anywhere
cuz you're a female.  Ask anyone that's ever worked the door
somewhere before.  The standing rule is let the women in.
-- 

Slade Foster   Montana State Univ.   trailmix@fubar.cs.montana.edu
From: cssnet@vms1.iscs.nus.sg (Postmaster)
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: The Nighttripper / Tonal Experiment
Date: 13 Oct 92 08:21:00 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore Dept. of Computer Sc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct12.144949.14318@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, laural@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (laura.l.la gassa) writes...
>There is a 12", very acidy trancy, that drives me totally insane.  At three
>different raves now I've heard this, each time at around 5.00 in the morning,
                      :
>the name of this track is called "The Nighttripper" (or that's the band's
>name and the track is called "Tonal Experiment").  It's dated 1992.  The

out on ESP Records in assoc. with GoBang! cat. no. ESP 9114-1
it shd be a Holland 12"
>Laura

If i am not wrong , it shd be The Nighttripper's Tone Exploitation
Newsgroups: alt.rave
From: karty@cs.washington.edu (Richard Karty)
Subject: Orbital (Was: MBM dumps live poseurs 808 off tour?
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 23:19:44 GMT


Damn I meant to post this last week:

In case anyone cares and didn't see...there was an interview with
ORbital in MM (or was it NME) just recently. There's your favorite and
mine Madonna on the cover.

It actually was one of those short-answer things, like "favorite
drink? first record you ever bought? Quote a line of poetry if you
can..." (no joke!)

It was not all that enlightening to me personally. I learned that one
of them has a wife and offspring. More importantly, I didn't even
remotely recognize the records they mentioned as favorites, or most
recently listened to or what have you. I think they may have all been
obscure American seventies jazz-funk (not plain seventies funk, which
I do know and love) that is deified in the UK and ignored here in the
US. Maybe Gil Scott Heron, I don't know. Maybe they were all childrens
nursery-rhyme records.

.
.Richard
.
.
From: janvirta@sara.cc.utu.fi
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: Brothers in Rhythm
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:57:10 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Finland

In article <1992Oct7.213329.22177@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, karty@cs.washington.edu (Richard Karty) writes:
> Who are Brothers in Rhythm? What are their best records?
> 
> I know them only from their remix of the Pet Shop Boys "how Can You
> Expect to be Taken Seriously" (called "perfect attitude mix") which I
> think is fantastic. Expecially the squeaky ping-y dripping noises
> going continuously in the background. And the minimalist piano.
> 
> thanks much
> 
> 
> Richard
> 
> .
> .
> .

Brothers in Rhythm: Steve Anderson and Dave Seaman
Their first single was "Peace & Harmony", the next one was called "Such a Good
Feeling". They are also responsible for the remix of the Pet Shop Boys
"Seriously" and under the guise of the Creative Thieves "Nasty Rhythm". They
also produced "Was it worth it?" with PSB. That is all I know.

---JABDAH---
Newsgroups: alt.rave,alt.is.too
From: EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: Song structure
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:20:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.205531.1808@pei.com>
fred_s@earwax.pei.com (Fred Scott) writes:
 
>In article <16879141F4.EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu> EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Oct7.151000.14945@aston.ac.uk>
>>heneganj@cs.aston.ac.uk (Jason Henegan) writes:
>>>
>>>Haven't you yet realised that rave music follows the same old four-beat
>>>structure with the same old instruments?
>>No, it does not.
>Does TOO!
 
Let's assume for the moment that it does, and that there might be something
wrong with that...
 
What praytell is wrong with it, and what should we *really* be listening to?
 
And why did Jason even bother to make his statement in the first place?
Did he think we'd suddenly change our collective musical taste?
Does he picture himself as the saviour of alt.rave?
 
What gives?
--Eric
 
PS: Does anybody know what kind of music Jason listens to?
From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf (Vitamin B))
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Yet ANOTHER Orb post - Oldfield Vs. the Orb
Date: 8 Oct 1992 05:32:41 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu


	And today I just got the Oldfield vs. the Orb CD:

Sentinel (Total Overhaul) - YZ698CDX - WEA records

	1. sentinel nobel prize mix	14:25
	2. sentinel orbular bells	12:25
	3. seven inch mix		 4:01

The nobel prize mix has a STRONG beat, a very regular thump-thump-thump - 
and it's pretty fast, much faster than any other Orb release (~135 or so?)
Very rave-ready.  The other two mixes are very ambient, no beat (but still
some sense of rhythm?  hmm..) and wonderful.  Orbular Bells ends with an
airline flying low overhead, a perfect ending.

The sleeve looks similar to the line-and-curves of the Blue Room single,
but it's in a full-size jewel case.

	Brian
From: mei172@cch.coventry.ac.uk (guru)
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: orbital
Date: 16 Oct 92 14:59:29 GMT
Organization: Coventry University

In article <1992Oct14.235039.6633@sbcs.sunysb.edu> rojohnso@libws2.ic.sunysb.edu () writes:
>
>Hey..I was just wondering if someone would describe the sound of the Orb?    
>Ive heard of them, and have been tempted to buy them, but never heard any 
>music from them...Are they anything like Orbital? To give you an idea of my
>musical tastes, I found Orbital to be dead and repetitive, and the only two 
>tracks that stood out to me were Belfast and Chime...On 808 State's Ex-EL, my
>favorite track was Lift, and on the first album, Pacific...as you can see, Im
>more into the dreamy melodic type of ambience/house...Would Orb be my cup of
>tea?? :)

guru sez:
	okay, kids, let's get this straight once and for all, we do *NOT*
	mention Orbital in the same breath as the Orb. Everyone got that?

	Judging from the posted favourites, the Orb will suit you down to 
	the ground, if you can handle half-hour long tracks...

	As for Orbital being dead and repetitive, *you ain't listening to it*.

	Their ideas tend to be wrapped around longer time-frames, but I've
	heard fewer tracks more lively than "Open Mind" and "Choice", and the
	sheer power of "Omen" is really scary.

	I think that "Orbital" was a really bad album, from the point of view
	or letting people know what Orbital are about, since it tended to keep
	their best stuff ("Satan","Omen","Choice") out of the picture. Other
	than that, it was simply excellent.
-- 
      /~~~) /   / /~~~) /   /  
     (___/ (___/ /     (___/   These mind-expanding drugs have given me so much
        /                      imagination, I'm hallucinating grey vividly....
   (___/ mei172@cch.cov.ac.uk                       Victor Lewis-Smith
Newsgroups: alt.rave
Subject: Re: another song/artist inquiry
From: djperry@husc11.harvard.edu (Lord of deXness)
Date: 16 Oct 92 11:52:59 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Keywords: answer  

In article <1992Oct16.065520.17966@wam.umd.edu> pjaffe@next06cville.wam.umd.edu (Paul I. Jaffe) writes:
>	Does Anyone know the name and/or artist of a song that has a kind  
>of cat-meowing sound followed by a young British girl saying "Always tell  
>your mummy before you go off somewhere"
>

CHARLY by THE PRODIGY.  Great song, great group. 

deX!


-- 
Hate is a fuzzy puppy.

Newsgroups: alt.rave
From: EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: Chicago Rave Scene/Milw Rave
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:14:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.025653.23939@midway.uchicago.edu>
disc@quads.uchicago.edu (Little Fluffy Cloud) writes:
 
>Word 'em up, Mike.  **THAT** was a constructive post.
>
>The problem is that I really designed the post to reply to those who had al-
>ready been to a Chicago rave party, not realizing that people outside this
>sphere would be reading the post and drawing different conclusions.  I just
>really RESENT it when TOYS second-guess what I'm saying rather than asking
>me to clarify my thoughts for those not familiar first-hand with the scene.
>
>=Jerry Dischler=|Little Fluffy Cloud|=disc@quads.uchicago.edu=
 
No one second-guessed you. I provided what I termed "possible translations"
and I explicitly wrote that I did *not* think you were a racist.
I also *asked* that you clarify your terminology, which you have now done.
 
Thank you.
 
If you didn't delete my entire post from your reply, it would be apparent
to anyone that I am telling the truth now. From reading your posts, it
seems that you don't share the Unity/Brotherhood/lack-of-concern-for-looks/
come-one-come-all ideals of some ravers in this group. If this is not true,
feel free to clarify.
 
Without second-guessing you, will you kindly explain what "TOYS" are?
 
And yeah, I'm about 25% Italian and I'm wearing some Z Cavarricci's
but I don't fit the rest of your description of a "guido" *at* *all*. :)
Don't worry, when I go to Chi-town, I promise not to go to any raves.
 
 
--Eric
 
thelookthefeelthesoundofmyvoicethelookthefeelthesoundofmyvoicethelookthe
feelthesoundofmyvoice   eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu  thelookthefeelthesound
ofmyvoice    Detroit, Michigan  USA   thelookthefellthesoundofmyvoicethe
Newsgroups: alt.rave
From: b102smi@utarlg.uta.edu (George M. Smiley)
Subject: Re: Guerilla
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:55:00 GMT

archive@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes...
>> Has anyone heard D.O.P.?  It's also on
>> Guerrilla and sounds promising.
>> 
>> 	Brian
> 
>  If you're interested in this then look out for a Guerilla compilation
>which was released in the UK ac ouple of months ago. It's called DUB
>HOUSE DISCO (in big letters on a yellow background)
> 
If you are really interesting in what you hear, buy the D.O.P 
CD released about 2 monts ago entitled _Musicians_of_the_Mind_.
It is pretty good house music with a few techno elements 
thrown in. 12 tracks at 73:41 for $15.00 - a bargain.

George
Newsgroups: alt.rave