From: narayana@oracorp.com (K. T. Narayana)
Subject: Re: Seetham's Blasphemy or Cheap Tickets To VaikunTam
Organization: ORA Corporation, Ithaca, New York
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:53:53 GMT

In article <17740@umd5.umd.edu> gopals@astro.umd.edu (N. Gopalswamy) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.160800.351@oracorp.com> narayana@oracorp.com (K. T. Narayana) writes:
>>In article <9212220022.AA11205@ece7.NIS.ece7> seetam@hub.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Uday Bhaskar Sarma) writes:
>>
>>
>>The center piece of Hindu thought is intellectualism; in the prehistoric
>>period, it offered one of the finest intellectual freedoms that societies
>>could offer to thinking individuals. No stone was left untouched in the
>>pursuit of the intellect. The variety of sects, within and outside the
>>pale of Hindu thought, and their philosophies, are a testement to this 
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Some of them like chaarvaak's were destroyed by the supporters
>of your intellectualism!
>

Have you got a substantive evidence of any of such destructions?

>>freedom. In all this period, thought played the fundamental role
>>to Brahmanical hold on the society (rather the Kshatriya rebellion)
>>is debatable. This is because the concept of the Self and the Identity
>>of the Self and the Brahman is Kshatriya in origin; actually Kshatriyas
>>held this knowledge as a secret. Brahmanas became disciples of Kshatriyas,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>In TN, the name for vedas is maRai (=the concealed)! 
>
>>learnt the Brahma-vidya from them, and then systematized the same in
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>You mean keeping knowledge as secret?
>

That is not what I read from Maxmuller's account of the Knowledge of
the Self and the Brahman. Try reading Upanishads by Maxmuller. Reading
helps. Knowledge is dispells darkness of mind.

>>
>>This view of intellectual diversity supported by the ritualistic component
>>of Hinduism was current even in the times of Adi Sankara. This in spite
>>of the rampant Krishna Bhaagavatism, particularly in the south (means TN)
>>of the Alvar variety. It is not true that the Vedantic society of that day 
>>accepted Bhaagavatism as main stream religion. In deed Bhaagavatism offered
>>the worst form of worship; brahmanas who used to pursue Bhaagavatism were
>>consisdered lower (not socially but intellectually). Indeed Adi Sankara
>>dismisses Bhaagavatism as outside the pale of Vedanta. 
>
>The first and last lines of this paragraph are contradictory. You
>sound really strange.

Not really! Think about it! The last line and the first line are
consistent. Think, it helps.

> What kind of intellectual was adi sankara
>who said that if a sudra listens to veda, molten lead should
>be poured into his years? Not only Alwars, but also Naayanmaars
>(many of them were intellectually lower brahmanas according to
>your definition) were in bakthi movement. Bakti movement directly
>related an individual to god without middle men. Your dogmatic
>views of society and intellectualism does not let you
>accepts the positive step the society in dealing with god and religion.
> 

Actaully the Upanishadic thought does not deal with middlemen.
Isvara is indeed a personal god. It requires people to think.

>>
>>
>>Ramanuja's cheif social contribution was to bring into the fold the idol
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>IMO, raamaanujaa's contribution was the realization that
>everyone is equal in front of god. While the intellectual
>prehistoric brains of the sankaraachaarys can not tolerate
>a harijan going into a hindu temple, ramaanuja converted harijans
>to bramanas. He accepted a sudra as his guru. I am sure
>treating humans as equals is not in your realm of intellectualism.
>

Ramanuja may have done many things! But how does it matter to the
idol worship under the subject of my notes!

>>of total prapatthi of AndaaL (admirable that AndaaL is), there is a
>>total absense of any intellectualism. In other words, the religion
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>When you can not come out of yajur vedic age, you can not
>appreciate a sudra Alwar lady like andal.

This is interesting! Thank you for letting me know that Andaal
is a Sudra! Sometimes people like you can only think of the caste first
and the intellect later. The question not whether Andaal is
intellectual. The question is the mode of worship (namely
prapatti) has intellectual content to it. From what I read,
prapatti is total surrender. Indeed it is pricisely on the
notion of parapatti and Bhakthi that the vaisnavite movement
split into Vadakalai and Thengalai sects. 

Try reading a little bit more; it helps dispell the darkness
in your mind.

>
>>of the south immensely damaged the intellectualism and the secularism
>>of the Hinduism.
>
>Ha! are you refering to the peaceful south during the 
>babri masjit madness?

Was Babri Masjid mentioned in the notes! Or your blind hatred of
North indians and Hindi speaking people coming forth.

>> 
>>Thus the decline of Hinduism in the north, and the recent revival
>>of the brahminical vedantic tradition, along with the yagnas and
>>the yagas, is perhaps the best that we should hope for.
>>If it takes of, we will have more thinking Hindus than chest-beating
>>Hindus chanting "Ayappo-Swamyne-Ayappo" variety. Intellectualism
>>is the fulcrum of Hindu thought. It offered diversity, freedom thought,
>>and liberation of mind. More importantly, it offered individuality
>>of thought and action without the abiding structure.
>>

>When a cat closesd its eyes, it thinks the world is dark. You simply
>do not have the yard stick to measure the development of human
>intellectualism when you can not come out of your prehistoric
>notions of human thought.  

By all accounts of the philosophers that I read, the time
of consolidation of Upanishadic thought is the most fertile
time for the indian mind. Indeed it is during that and 
subsequent periods, Buddhism and Jainism and other forms
including Bhaagavatism came to the fore. I don't know why
prehistoric thought and achievements (which every knowledgeable
philosopher regards as outstanding achievements) are in any
way less than intellectual. 
>
>This is one other master piece in your south-bashing epics. But
>many on the net know that these throw-ups are due to your
>total ignorance about the thought process of the south. 
>Do you know about sidhdhars? They are not idol worshippers.
>These sudra thinkers asked people to search inside them for
>god and not out side or in idols. Read some lingaayat kannada
>poetry. 

Yes! I did! We have in Telugu a writer called Palkurkhi Samanatha!
He wrote what is called the Basava Sathakam! Read about lingayat
movement in footnote by Radhakrishan. That tells you a lot. 
We not only read their poetry but the criticism of their work too.
>>...kt
>
>
>N. Gopalswamy

There are some language bigots who simply hate north indians
because they speak Hindi, and hate them simply because they
are north indians.

...kt
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