From: mike@nuada.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:00:40 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@nuada.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.62

Christopher R. Dunlea writes:
>thank you for proving my case. Imperialism requires the use of military
>force, and that is what happened in Ireland, as you just admitted.

This doesn't prove any "case"; I am not disputing that imperialism
was practiced by Britain, in Ireland & elsewhere.  What remains
unproved (that is, unsubstantiated by you) is the argument that
Ireland was a testbed for imperialism.  This can only mean "testbed
for imperialist practices of some sort".  If you mean, simply,
imperialism itself, it fails -- the English were practicing
imperialists even in Britain itself long before the Tudors set out to
_reconquer_ Ireland.  If you mean, they practiced their new
imperialism in Ireland before going on to the rest of the world -- it
fails, because the British were, simultaneous with the pacification of
Ireland, setting up colonies in the New World and India. 

>The thesis of Ireland as a testing ground of British imperialism lies 
>on the premise that Ireland was the first place where British divide-    
>and conquer policies, in step with a military subjugation of the           
>population, were practiced in a systematic way. If you cannot 

Well at last a statement of what particular imperialist practices you mean.

>disprove this thesis with fact instead of "I was under the impression"
>interjections, you cannot disprove the thesis, period.

Look, it's your thesis -- you're the one with the burden of proof.  I
don't need to disprove it, which, of course, is a difficult rhetorical
state to attain. I can cast a lot of doubt on it, tho, which I think I
have managed to do.  It's fine with me if you can offer convincing
proof but "Run along litle boy & read this here book" isn't good enuf.

It is easy to say that, for example, the plantations are obviously
something the British practiced in Ireland first, & then shipped to
North America.  The problem is that once you start looking at how they
did things, who & what they were "plantating", & how they were dealing
with the native population, nothing looks similar.  It looks like the
commonality is "settlement". Isn't it also the case that the real
"settlement" of Ireland from Britain took place in the 17th century,
which is simultaneous with the initial North American colonization.
Does it help if I recommend reading the first few chapters of Foster,
including the chapter on the theory of plantations?

Now, what evidence can you offer that the "divide & conquer policies"
&al were practiced elsewere, with a model or even lessons learned from
Ireland? I am unfamiliar with the British policy towards India before
1800 but that seems like a possible candidate.  North America is
probably not, since the initial British colonists here met relatively small
Indian populations.  The later British dealings with the Iroquois
don't seem all that similar to what happened with the Irish; I don't
recall that they regranted these tribes their lands & gave their leadership
English titles, or spent a lot of effort murdering them & displacing
them from their lands.  Post-independence that was.  As a matter of
fact, after 1763, the British government paid attention to the
rights of the Indians in the conquered French territories in North America,
tried to prevent the North American colonists from moving into those
lands, one of the reasons for the war of independence.

 ...
>Again, you overlook the argument. Testbed for WHAT? Imperialism, and
>the systematic expropriation of land and labor. Nothing you 

Look, this is a definition of imperialism.  See my 1st paragraph.

>idea of where he might find citable information. Canny's argument is
>that the English did indeed develop their imperialist strategies on
>Irish soil. 

Great -- I had sorta assumed he would have said this -- can you
give us a sample of what *his* argument is based on then?