HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: `fluency in Japanese'
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:49:21 GMT
Organization: Yokogawa Electric Corporation, Tokyo, Japan
In-reply-to: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU's message of 13 Aug 92 17:52:54 GMT

In article <MS-C.713728374.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
   mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:

 =} . Can you hold an *extended* conversation on the telephone (long enough to
 =}   run out of pattern sentences and having to compose your own) without the
 =}   other person having a clue that you aren't a native speaker?
[...]
 =} . Can you read a newspaper or technical report?

   So now fluency in the spoken language and fluency in the written language
are one...  I have met people fluent in the spoken who could not read even
simple sentences if they had too many kanzi...  And I have met some who can
read like a demon but can't even make the simplest of sentences sound like
Japanese...

 =}These are some of the things I consider to be the earmark of fluency, and
 =}what I think only a handful of people can accomplish.

   And many Japanese could possibly fail these tests also.  I have male
friends who can not read a newspaper.  I also sometimes have to play
Japanese to Japanese interpreter for some friends...

   And you also forgot to mention listening ability...  An earmark for
this would be if one could watch Shimura Ken's TV programs and hear
everything he says (hey, news is too easy)...

   But then there are my Japanese friends who sometimes ask me to
explain what a newscaster or comedian said...


 =} . Can you hold a conversation without being consciously aware of what
 =}   language you are speaking, and in particular have your partner switch the
 =}   language several times in the course of the conversation without you
 =}   being consciously aware of the switch?

   I moved this one out because it doesn't seem to apply to the situation
at hand.  If one is monolingual then the above might be possible, but for
a bilingual IMHO it is impossible.  So all those of us non-native speakers
who now speak Japanese became unfluent in our native languages?

(switching gives me no problem, but even when I speak in English I am
 glaringly aware that I am speaking in English)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: tozaki@math.keio.ac.jp (Hidekazu TOZAKI)
Subject: Re: Radicals
Organization: Faculty of Sci. and Tech., Keio Univ., Yokohama, Japan.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:50:23 GMT

In article <jwb.713746496@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au> jwb@capek.rdt.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) writes:
 >! Most kanji dictionaries have such tables. For example, Nelson has a large
 >! appendix showing most/all the radicals used in the various positions.

  For some historical reason, the radicals for some kanji's are
dictionary dependent. Nelson's radical system is not traditional but
evolutionary. (The following is what I wrote when someone had
previously asked me the related topics via E-mail.)

Hope this helps.
---

 The meaning of traditional here is to follow the categorization in
"Kouki Jiten", (whose Chinese name is Kang Xi Zidian,) which was
compiled by Kouki (Kang Xi) Emperor in 1716. Most of Japanese Kanji
standard shape and Bushu categolization has been based on this
dictionary, more exactly, had been strictly followed till the year
1946.

 As you probably know, Kanji reformation was enacted in this year, we
were obliged to change many kanji's in its shape. (The reason I use
"oblige" is that there are still some people who dislike this
new-shaped Kanji called "Shin-Jitai".) With this reformation, original
Bushu was lost in some kanji's, for instance "$@5l(J". Its original Bushu
is "$@p2(J" (name: Furutori) because its original shape (Kyuu-Jitai) is "
$@gQ(J".  (The Kyuu in Kyuu-jitai is just this kanji.) And some
dictionaries list this in "|", (*real* "|" is not in JIS standard. :-<
I also wonder how you solve the problem in such cases.) some in "$@F|(J",
even some (perhaps not a few) are in "$@p2(J". As far as I know there's no
standard Bushu for such kanji's. (I don't know how Nelson treat this
problem.)

 Next example is "$@OB(J". As I showed you previous mail, this traditional
(and official) Bushu is "$@8}(J". (Pay attention this Kanji is not changed
by 1946 reformation.) In more older era than in the period when Kouki
Jiten was made, "$@OB(J"'s left part "$@2S(J" is in right and the right part "
$@8}(J" is left, just like "$@8}2S(J". So this is historically logical but
some feel this inconvenient. Furthermore, "$@D+(J"'s Bushu is
traditionally "$@7n(J", but some suggest its Bushu should be altered to
its left part ($@==(J + $@F|(J + $@==(J). This part has not been considered as a
Bushu, but such people newly made this as a Bushu. (I forget to say
that there's no standard for Bushu's name even for traditional Bushu,
as far as I know.)
--
Hidekazu TOZAKI
Faculty of Science and Technology, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan.
E-mail: tozaki@nak.math.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: matsui@grebe.Stanford.EDU (Matsui Toshihiro)
Subject: Re: language question
Organization: Robotics Department, Stanford University, Ca. USA
Distribution: sci
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:49:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.074800.24188@tkymail.sps.mot.com> rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung) writes:
>In article <Bt3ooq.HqA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu writes:
>>>>I'm not sure, but wouldn't "kaeru jikan wo wakarimasu ka" be more
>>>			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>	If you want to use this format, "kaeru jikan GA wakari masu ka" should
>>>	be better.
>>
>>I am sure you meant "kaeru jikan WA wakari masu ka." "... ga..." is
>>as meaningless as "... wo..." (It sounds worse.)

"Kaeru jikan wo wakarimasuka?"	-- unnatural but acceptable
"Kaeru jikan ga wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
"Kaeru jikan ha wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
"Kaeru jikan mo wakarimasuka?"	-- natural
"Kaeru jikan wakarimasuka?"	-- natural but colloquial
"Kaeru jikan [e | ni | to ...] wakarimasuka?"	-- unacceptable

"ga" is the most general. "ha" is ok but differnent meaning from "ga".
"ha" emphasizes the subject among others. "I know you don't know
how to go back or how much it costs, but I hope you know at least 
the time to go back."

>Huh?  I think I missed something here.  "Wo" is clearly wrong; "wakaru"
>never takes "wo".  The normal "object"-marking particle for "wakaru" is
>"ga", as in "Nihongo ga wakarimasen."  

Wakaru can take "wo". 

"Nihon no ongaku wo (ga is acceptable) wakaru hito ha sukunai."
	Few people understand Japanese music.
"Kare ha nihon no ongaku ga (ga is better than wo) wakaru."
	He understands Japanese music.
"Kare ha nihon no ongaku wo (ga is ok) wakatte iru."

"Boku no kimochi wo (ga is unacceptable) wakatte kudasai."
	Please understand my feeling.
"Boku no kimochi ga (wo is acceptable) wakarimasuka?"
	Do you understand my feeling?


>					In this particular example, "ga"
>(to me) sounds unnatural -- "wa" sounds much better -- but is it
>incorrect?  Maybe a particle expert out there can help us out.

"Nihongo wo wakarimasen." is a bit unnatural but enough acceptable.
I guess selection of "wa", "ga", "wo", "ni", etc. for non-Japanese
natives is that of "the", "a(n)", singular, or plural for Japanese.

Toshihiro Matsui

-- 
--Toshihiro Matsui, $B>>0f(J $B=S9@!"(J JQ1QNW@7,21,28,144,430MHz
-- Computer Sci. Robotics Lab., Stanford CA
-- Visitor from Electrotechnical Lab., Tsukuba, Japan
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: rrwest01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: question about wakarimasen/shirimasen
Organization: University of Louisville
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:20:13 GMT

If I use "wakarimasen" when I don't know the answer to a question, my
Japanese interlocutor thinks I didn't understand the question and 
switches to English. Rather frustrating.
--robert westmoreland
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: santos@MICKEY.AI.KYUTECH.AC.JP (Rafael Santos)
Subject: GENJI MONOGATARI
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 09:23:37 GMT

   >>>A provokative statement:
   >>>When you learn Japanese, the worst thing you might do is starting to
   >>>read the GENJI NO MONOGATARI. Its value for the understanding of modern
 Japan
   >>>is nil. This can be likened to the complete irrelevance of HOMER for the
   >>>understanding of modern Greece. BTW: The "Genji" has been translated
   >>>to all major European languages.
   >>
   >>Hi!
   >>I dont really think too many people would read GENJI to learn about
   >>modern Japan- I'm reading it right now, and I would hardly compare it to
   >>anything I've learned about Japan!  Interesting you should mention it at
   >>this time, though.
   >>What other MONOGATARI would you recommend?

I want to read it, but just to get some feelings about OLD Japanese
literature.
If somebody have some comments, ideas, suggestions, please...

Rafael.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: kishiko@TANPOPO.INFO.COM (Kishiko Ozaki)
Subject: Re: My name in Kanji.
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:00:00 GMT

$B$3$s$K$A$o!*(B
I'm Japanese female.  I guess I have better suggestions for your name
in Kanji.  Your idea '$B9@Aa!!GO3?6n(B ' is not bad, but it still looks to
me that you're Chinese or such.  How about these;

	$B9,:n!!Kc0!Mh(B
	$B9a:i!!??0$5W(B
	$B9b:=!!Ka0!6j(B
	$B9c:i!!Kc0$5f(B
	$B9-Aa!!??0!9W(B

Anyways, there are lots of combinations.  I recomend you $B9c:i!!??0!5W(B
or $B9,:n!!??0!5f(B.  You may like to convert first name or second name
either way.  My friend has $B;}L4(B for his first name.  I've been thinking
his family name in Kanji for his birthday gift.  It's TOUGH!  His
family name is Gottlieb.  I guess you are lucky.  I'm sending you Kanji
in Jis code.  Please let me know if you would find your name in Kanji.
Sorry about my terrible English.

$B$G$O!"$G$O!#(B
Have a nice day!

$B!<!<(B
$B5.;V;R(B
--
In Japan:	kishiko@tanpopo.info.juice.or.jp
International:	kishiko@tanpopo.info.com
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: M.Kossa@FREC.BULL.FR (Marc Kossa)
Subject: My name in Kanji.
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:43:31 GMT

Hi everyone ;->
As for a change with kurai/gurai, I have a question for japanese
readers. My name being Marc Kossa, I'm trying to find a combination
of kanji to fit it phonetically, and to fit me otherwise...
I'm aware that the combination must show some harmony, at least.
So far the best I found is : $B9@Aa!!GO3?6n(J
What do you people think of it ? Any better suggestions ?

Doomo arigatoo gozaimasu.

--
          /| /|             |  /
         / |/ |  _  ._   _  |_/  _ < <   _
        /     |_(_(_/ |_(_  | \_(_)_>_>_(_(_      $B9@Aa!!GO3?6n(J
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bull SA, BP 208        | E-mail    : M.Kossa@frec.bull.fr          |
| 1 Rue de Provence      | Phone (W) : 33 76397500 ext 7421          |
| 38432 Echirolles CEDEX |       (H) : Are you kidding ?             |
| FRANCE                 | Office    : FREC B1-163                   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
"Soyez sage les enfants"                        - Robocop in "Robocop"
From: kutluk@LANGUAGE-LINGUISTICS.UMIST.AC.UK (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: kanji of the day #24
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:45:03 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

I missed your initial Kanji of the day posters [which are
very helpful for everyone], could you post me
the ones up to now if you stored them somewhere.

Thank you very very much

Kutluk
From: yoichi@milton.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:20:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Aug13.212038.22585
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:
>[good advices deleted]
>
>If the question or its response is likely to be complex, try having a
>few startup patterns at your command that you can quickly rattle off,
>such as:
>	<appropriate number>-nen nihongo wo benkyo^-shinakatta no de,
>	mada heta nan desu kedo...

I think you have the "feel" of a typical Japanese conversation just right, 
but I think what you want here is something like "X-nen shika Nihongo no 
benkyou wo shite inai no de ...". (I assume what you intended to say was
"I've studied Japanese for only X-years, so...").

>Even in simpler situations, try more indirect (adult) speech.  When
>looking for something that you suspect is in the vicinity, instead of:
>	nani-nani ha doko desu ka.
>try:
>	Ano...nani-nani wo sagash'te'ru kedo.......

Again, you have the "feel" correct, but "ru kedo" part makes it sound like
a third person is doing the looking.  Something like the following
might be better:
- X wo sagashite run' dakedo ..." (friendly)
- X wo sagashite irun' desuga ..." (a little more formal)
- X wo sagashite iru no desuga ..." (formal)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>
Subject: `fluency in Japanese'
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Organization: University of Washington
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:52:54 GMT

The problem with Mark Rowe's definition [`anyone who can converse in Japanese
with an average native Japanese person at a normal rate of speech and in a
smoothly flowing manner...where each understands what is being said would be
fluent in Japanese'] is that it is too easy to stretch that definition to
cover a multitude of individuals who are merely capable of making themselves
understood.

Someone who can speak a kind of pidgin Japanese could speak `in a smoothly
flowing manner' and `be understood' but can not be considered to be fluent in
Japanese.  Such a person is fluent in pidgin, which is a different thing
entirely.  My experience suggests that many self-proclaimed `fluent in
Japanese' individuals are in fact fluent speakers of pidgin.

Here are some of the things I consider important:
 . Can you hold an *extended* conversation on the telephone (long enough to
   run out of pattern sentences and having to compose your own) without the
   other person having a clue that you aren't a native speaker?
 . Can you hold a conversation without being consciously aware of what
   language you are speaking, and in particular have your partner switch the
   language several times in the course of the conversation without you being
   consciously aware of the switch?
 . Can you read a newspaper or technical report?

These are some of the things I consider to be the earmark of fluency, and what
I think only a handful of people can accomplish.

Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: mathias@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B. Mathias)
Subject: sumimaseeen, onegai shimaaasu
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:08:45 GMT

There have been a couple of comments about lengthening penultimate syllables
in a couple of expressions, namely `sumimasen' and `onegai shimasu.'

They have gone pretty much unchallenged, so I suppose they're all right,
but the impression I get from either `sumimaseeeen' or `onegai shimaaasu'
is of femininity and/or severe youth.  If I force myself to imagine Tora-san
saying either, I get a simpering/whimpering image.

But I get most of my spoken Japanese from TV, and I may just not watch enough
anymore.  Any comments?

Bart Mathias
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Translation please?
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:14:29 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

What is the word or phrase in Japanese for "kickstart", ie, the method
of starting a motorcycle?

Transliteration ok, please send email as I don't read this group.
(So many newsgroups, so little time).

Arigatoo...

	- Leigh Ann



Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
"They're mine!  All mine!  And what's mine is mine!" - Daffy Duck
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: yusuke@hara.cs.keio.ac.jp (Yusuke Hiwasaki)
Subject: Re: OTAKU
Organization: Keio University, Yokohama, Japan.
	<kutluk.713476637@ccl.umist.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:14:46 GMT


Hi.

>OTAK is a Turkish word meaning a large tent, or house in nomadic
>periods. (compare with the TurkoMongolian word YURT meaning home,
>house and tent) 
> ...

Very interesting indeed, but I really do not think that this is correct.
OTAKU is a formal way of saying TAKU (i.e. putting "O" in front of nouns
which you want to say in a formal way). Traditionally, written in Kanji,
it is separated as:

O(in Hiragana)-TAKU(in Kanji)

Ofcourse, TAKU is a way of reading:

                    *
          ***********************
          *                     *
             **************
                    *
           ******************
                    *
                    *          *
                    ************

And this letter alone means house.
                ^^^^^
But in the other hand, reading this Kanji as "TAKU" is ON-YOMI (Chinese
way of reading), and it is possible that the Turkish word OTAK changed
to TAKU along the way to Japan.

Sorry for my poor English.


--
============
Yusuke Hiwasaki (yusuke@hara.cs.keio.ac.jp)
Harada Lab, Dept of Instrumental Engineering, Keio University
045(536)1141 ex.3567
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: gomen nasai
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:58:06 GMT

In article <9208102258.AA04969@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:

>A story related to this. I was buying tickets for my wife and I to
>see a movie in Tokyo. I asked, in Japanese, for two unreserved seats.
>The ticket sales lady said, in Japanese, I don't speak English. I
>replied that's OK, I just want two unreserved tickets, please. She
>said again, I don't speak English. Finally I said, still in Japanese,
>neither do I, may I please have two tickets in unreserved seating.
>Again she said, I don't speak English. Finally my wife leaned over
>and made the same request using exactly the same words I had used.
>The sales girl said that will be 6000 yen please. Mind you, not a
>single word of English was used in this entire exchange.

That's a fairly common "gaijin" complaint. I had a friend (caucasian) who
speaks (what most Japanese will admit) perfect Japanese. Certainly, FAR better
than mine. Two incidents come to mind;

Once, he made reservations at a restaurant over the phone (in Japanese), 
under his name, Ken. We went to the restaurant, and the girl who had spoken 
with him over the phone started to complain (in Japanese) "Sorry, I don't
speak English". We continued like this for about 3 minutes until the manager
came out and tried to talk to us in HORRIBLE English. At this point, I answered
him in German. He gave me funny look, then I said, in Japanese, "Sorry, we're
Germans and we don't speak English. Can you speak German?" Answer of course
was "No". Then ""Well, can you speak Japanese?" I got looks of incredible 
relief from both parties, we chatted a bit in Japanese, were seated, got a 
couple of beers "sa-bisu", my friend and I looked at each other and almost fell
on the floor laughing.

Another time, we were looking for a place we were to meet some friends, and
not being able to find it, he walked up to an old man and asked for help. The
old man replied "No English, no English". He tried once or twice more, then 
asked me over (in English). I asked the man (in Japanese) and got a prompt,
polite, correct answer.

Ah, kokusaika :-)

Mike


-- 
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Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: colric@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Colin Richards)
Subject: Re: Daijobu-da!
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 06:49:11 GMT

hcheng@Auspex.COM (Howard Cheng) writes:

>In article <1992Aug20.114911.800@rkna50.riken.go.jp> mtachiba@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Masahiko Tachibana) writes:
>>
>>If you want to know who Shimura Ken is, tune Fuji TV at 8 o'clock 
>>`Daijobu-daa' on every monday evening.  You will easily find a host
>>comedian with wide front, thick eye-braw in long face.   That's him.
>>

>Is this show still on? I remember watching that show when I stayed in Japan
>two summers ago. It was one of the funniest shows I've ever seen. On other
>hand, I don't remember it that well...

>h.

All of the 6 year olds in the audience seem to enjoy it!
From: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu ("Makoto Shimojima, Univ of Tsukuba/CDF")
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:17:59 GMT
Reply-To: mako@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

You know, we, the native-speakers, never say "nihongo no shaberu gaijin"
to mean "nihongo WO shaberu gaijin" or "nihongo wo shabeREru gaijin".

						mako
PS: Add your favourite smiley or two...
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: nihongo no shaberu gaijin
Date: 13 Aug 92 04:14:10 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0

I've never been accused of speaking unaccented or non-stilted
Japanese, except perhaps by certain of my friends who have an
exaggerated opinion of my abilities.  I am all too aware of my accent
and ungrammatical speech, and work consciously to stomp it out.  It is
only recently that I have reached the point where I can spend two days
in meaningful and extended conversation with a native Japanese who is
completely unable to understand English.  I know because I recently
did just that.

However, I've observed any number of times how many self-proclaimed
`fluent in Japanese' individuals are a good deal worse.  They may have
a fair amount of grammar and even kanji down, but their pronunciation
is atrocious!

I suspect that there's only a dozen or so non-native speakers who can
be considered to be truly fluent in Japanese.

Very few native Japanese are going to make sense out of:
	Corey wuh nine diskkuh?
	Toily wuh dough-koe diskkuh?
[actually heard out of the mouths of fellow hen-na gaijin in To^kyo^]

Bad pronounciation combines with a strict usage of the sentence
pattern:
	[watakushi | anata] ha nani-nani [desu | -masu].
for every sentence, plus an inexplicable reluctance to use aizuchi, to
create a set of sounds that does not sound at all like Nihongo to the
average native Japanese.

Hint on whether or not you need pronunciation practice.  If you call a
bilingual Japanese on the phone and he immediately switches to English
upon hearing your `moshi-moshi', you need work.

I cannot understate the importance of aizuchi and the other little
meaningless words you add to your speech to make it more natural
sounding and to cover for your mistakes.  An `ano....' or `ee-to' can
open linguistic doors that `tabesaserarenakerebanaranakatta' (OK, I'm
being facetious here) will not.

If the question or its response is likely to be complex, try having a
few startup patterns at your command that you can quickly rattle off,
such as:
	<appropriate number>-nen nihongo wo benkyo^-shinakatta no de,
	mada heta nan desu kedo...
at this point your listener is probably going to respond with aizuchi,
most likely `hai', since it's pretty obvious at this point that you
have a request to make.

Even in simpler situations, try more indirect (adult) speech.  When
looking for something that you suspect is in the vicinity, instead of:
	nani-nani ha doko desu ka.
try:
	Ano...nani-nani wo sagash'te'ru kedo.......
Here the response is likely to be `nani-nani desu ka', to which you
can say something like `hai, onegai-shimasu' (sharp `hai', and stretch
out `shimasu').
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan