HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: papworth@pdx022 (David Papworth)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Organization: Intel Corp., Hillsboro, Oregon
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:49:17 GMT

In article <vcard+@quantum.on.ca> aboyd@quantum.on.ca (Andrew Boyd) writes:
>
>Suggestion:  world's cheapest deice:  carry a few jugs of windsheild-washer
>antifreeze in your car trunk.  For a few bucks, you can get rid of the
>ice on your wings.  Just make sure that the methyl alcohol will not cause
>any damage to your a/c.  For example, it's unlikely to harm your paint
>or aluminum, but it might bother your windscreen.  Check with Cessna to
>make sure.

I've done this a few times, and it doesn't work all that well. Windshield
washer solution is pretty weak antifreeze, and straight ethylene glycol
out of a bottle doesn't melt the ice; it just keeps water from freezing.
A slight modification works better, I've found.

Get yourself a 3 gallon plastic bucket, an old towel, and a gallon of
ethylene glycol car antifreeze. Buy the cheapest antifreeze you can find. Go
into the restroom and fill the bucket with water as hot as you can get
it. Dump in about a quart of antifreeze. Stir it up.

Walk out to your plane. Soak the towel in the bucket of hot water and
start wiping the wing down. Wring the cold water out of the towel
periodically. The hot water is much more effective at removing the
ice than the antifreeze. The antifreeze is added to keep the water
from re-freezing. If you get lazy and have good access to hot water,
you can just pour the contents of the bucket on the wings and horizontal
stabilizer. Usually you have to walk a long way and the sink fills 
the bucket slowly, so the towel method conserves your de-ice solution.
Use the towel to get as much of the water off the wing as you can.

Don't pour antifreeze on the windshield. (It might well be bad for 
the plexiglass). Don't try to use a scraper (it leaves scratches).
Pour pure (hot) water on it, and use paper towels to remove the excess.

Get the leading edge of the wing and stabilizer completely clean of
frost and snow. I try to get it all off, but I will compromise as long
as the wing is clean from the leading edge to 18 inches back, and
the rest is reasonably smooth. Inspect the control surfaces for
any possibility of refreezing. Slosh on some stronger antifreeze/water
solution if in doubt.

This seems to work OK down to about 20 degrees fahrenheit. Much
colder than that and it is really difficult to melt the ice, and
the engine will need a preheat anyway.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.misc
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: New DOT Drug/Alcohol proposed regulations announced
Followup-To: talk.politics.drugs
Keywords: dot faa fhwa uscg fra fta rspa drug alcohol nprm regulation
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 03:59:29 GMT

> The following new Proposed Rulemakings are now available on ADIC.
> The documents may be downloaded to your computer by calling 
> (1-800-225-3804), or you may request copies via facsimile transfer
> by calling the ADIC telephonic/fax system (1-800-225-3784).

Before all you rec.aviators start firing up your modems and FAX machines,
let me tell you the results of my brief use of the system.

The modem-based system wants you to type in a credit card number, and will
charge you $1/minute for the privilege of viewing documents.

The fax-transmission system will happily FAX you 10 pages of an available
document list, on which you will find the relevant FAA NPRM's.  The
available FAA documents **and their respective prices** include:

0501  FAA - Special Interest Groups				  free
0502  Most Frequently Asked Questions about the Aviation
      Industry Anti-Drug Program				  free
0900  All DOT and Administration Proposed Drug and
      Alcohol Rules				        34 pgs   $2.50
3900  FAA Proposed [Alcohol] Regulations - 14 CFR
      Parts 61, 63, 65, 121, and 135			96 pgs   $7.50
9900  ANPRM						15 pgs   $1.25
3000  All (!) of part 61, Part 65, Part 121, Part 135   91 pgs   $8.75
3001  Proposed Documents				 6 pgs   $1.25

So, not only are there proposed regulations for which we will no doubt
have to pay, but we must pay to SEE the proposed regulations.  Grumble.

						Geoff
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Reply-To: kerry@Ingres.COM (Kerry Kurasaki)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:59:25 GMT

In article <BzBC6K.AEL@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
>My question is this - what do others
>realistically do in situations where it is not feasible to remove frost 
>completely.  Am I doing something grossly unsafe?  By the way, this is in
>a 172.  I'd be very interested in the thoughtful comments of other pilots.
>Again, I am well aware that no amount of frost is good.  Is there any
>amount that can safely be considered acceptable for a safe takeoff under
>the conditions I have described?  Thanks.

A couple of simple rules that I've lived by:

    If there's any trace of snow, don't go.

      -and-

    It's so much easier to remove the frost on the ground than in the
    air.

And some hints:

    If you will be flying into warmer weather, e.g. an early morning
    flight to sunshine and stuff, you can use a garden hose to remove
    the frost.  I would NOT use this technique if I knew that the
    altitude/conditions I'm flying in are below freezing since some
    of the water could get into the flight control hinges and ice up.

    Keep a rag or two in the airplane.  Higher wing Cessnas are more
    difficult to "defrost" than a Piper, but it needs to be done anyway.
    I have not toyed with the idea of an antifreeze mix like the airlines,
    but it's a possibility if you constantly encounter frost.  Maybe
    a diluted auto formula with a spray bottle you keep in the plane?
    I have no idea what havoc it might wreak with the paint (or envi-
    ronmentalists :-( ) so use your own judgment.

    There are also wing covers available.  Yet another thought.

Kerry
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:02:34 GMT

skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild) writes:

>In article <BzBC6K.AEL@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:

>>...Again, I am well aware that no amount of frost is good.  Is there any
>>amount that can safely be considered acceptable for a safe takeoff under
>>the conditions I have described?  Thanks.

>There's a statement in FAR 91.527 which covers this situation:

>	(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has -
>            (1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, 
>                or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, 
>                rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
>            (2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control 
>                surfaces; or
>            (3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control 
>                surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it 
>                smooth.

:quibble
91.527 is actually in Subpart F, which applies only to "large and turbine-
powered multiengine airplanes".
:equibble

It's still a bad idea to take off with anything which will confuse
the airflow over the wings.  With the wings deformed by the frost (even
if it *is* polished) you are arguably outside the scope of the airworthiness
certificate because the shape of the wings has been altered, and if 
you aren't lucky all sorts of "interesting" situations could arise before
the frost melts.

To say nothing of what would happen if an FAA inspector happened to be
in the area.

Joe Morris
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: feith@VAX309.NOSC.MIL
Subject: Re: Hypoxia Altitude at Night
Reply-To: feith@VAX309.NOSC.MIL
Organization: Naval Health Research Center, San Diego, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:54:13 GMT

I will try to answer your question as best as I can, based soley on my
extremely second-hand, limited knowledge.  The scuba bottle is designed
to handle the 3000 PSI internal pressure at sea level (1 atm = 14.7psi).
When that bottle goes to altitude, the external pressure decreases as
you know, quite rapidly.  At 18,000ft the external pressure has been
reduced to 1/2 atm (7.35psi) and therefore the internal pressure exerts
effectively more force on the weakest point of the bottle.  Most of the 
time the weakest part of the container is the neck and if that were to
give way, then you have a missile..........bad juju
In the not too distant past, ox bottles in the hypobaric chambers where
required to be wire wrapped and hydrostatically tested to some higher
spec than 'surface' bottles, by Department of Transportation standards.
That spec also required some type of super deal neck on the bottle
(maybe it was a way to charge more money, I couldn't see any difference)
When my wire wrapped bottles reached the end of their service life in
1986, I tried to bur more wire wrapped and found the spec changed again.
All I know is, that any compressed gas container that goes to altitude
(probably over 8,000ft) have a DoT requirement to be of a special type.
I metioned that to you because I didn't want you to get into touble or
get hurt with a non-rated bottle.  Happy holidays and safe flying!

                           FLY NAVY
                                        S.J. Feith
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Organization: The MITRE Corp
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:03:44 GMT

In article <BzBC6K.AEL@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:

>...Again, I am well aware that no amount of frost is good.  Is there any
>amount that can safely be considered acceptable for a safe takeoff under
>the conditions I have described?  Thanks.

There's a statement in FAR 91.527 which covers this situation:

	(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has -
            (1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, 
                or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, 
                rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
            (2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control 
                surfaces; or
            (3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control 
                surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it 
                smooth.

I'm not sure how "smooth" is defined (it's not in the AIM) but that's the 
guideline I use without problem on a Piper Archer.  If it's thick enough to 
come off with a scraper, I take it off.  The rest I smooth with a brush and 
cloth and the resulting takeoffs have been nominal.  
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Organization: Data Parallel Systems, Inc
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:26:22 GMT

In <skip.215.724521824@mitre.org> skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild) writes:

>There's a statement in FAR 91.527 which covers this situation:

>	(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has -
>            (1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, 
>                or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, 

[ ... ]

Unless Jim's 172 has a substantial STC allowing for a turbojet conversion
and a gross weight increase of, about, 11,000 pounds, FAR 91.527 does not
apply.

FAR 91.527 applies only to large, turbine powered aircraft.

greg

--
Gregory Reed Travis				D  P  S  I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated   greg@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN			     greg@indiana.edu (For the others)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: feith@VAX309.NOSC.MIL
Subject: Re: Hypoxia Altitude at Night
Reply-To: feith@VAX309.NOSC.MIL
Organization: Naval Health Research Center, San Diego, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:08:25 GMT

My comments about the scuba bottle and going to altitude are from
past experience in the hypobaric chamber only.  My expertise was
exhausted when I said that I don't think that it would be a good
idea to fly over 8,000 with a scuba bottle.
  Please, if someone out there knows anything about this topic--
HELP.  Inquiring minds want to know.  Thanks

                                              S.J. Feith
From: jmmatthe@apgea.army.mil (Jeffrey M. Matthews <jmmatthe>)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Date: 18 Dec 92 18:10:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CRDEC APG

In article <BzD5BE.K0C@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> steve@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges) writes:
>
>Remember, there are bold pilots, there are old pilots, but there are no
>old, bold pilots.
>
Well, I dunno.  Jimmy Doolittle was once reprimanded for riding on the
landing gear of an Army plane, became one of the first, if not THE first
to do an outside loop, survived the Gee Bees and the Schneider Cup racers,
and wound down his career with a one-way trip into China in 42.  He's 95.

The old, bold pilots are the ones who continually push at the limits of
their experience.  But they push gently, do their homework, and know what
they're gonna do if it doesn't work.  After a while, what's commonplace to
them is death-defying to us.  

Of course, everyone is subject to the rule that feelings of immortality
make a bad end more probable.  Look at Frank Tallman and Neil Williams--
they both flew into mountains while IFR,  Bevo Howard ran outta gas.  
Same sorta things that get so many of us in trouble.

Flying is safe, as long as you remember how dangerous it is.

J. Matthews
Standard Disclaimers Apply
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Reply-To: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems. Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:00:37 GMT

In article <2549@usna.NAVY.MIL>, dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)) writes:

|> You are going to get so much mail and flames on this one that you
|> had better get out the fire hose and asbestos suit.

Actually, I have not received a single flame.  I have received approximately
five responses by e-mail.  Two of them were from people who indicated that
they have done pretty much the same thing after taking precautions, and
three who made thoughtful comments on why they wouldn't feel comfortable
taking off with any frost at all on the wings.  Actually, unlike past
experiences I've had on the net, I was quite pleased to find that there
don't seem to be as many hot-heads flaring off at the mouth on this one.
Perhaps my request that people make thoughtful comments that I and others
might benefit from was actually taken to heart.  I appreciate it, from those
who have mailed to me.  This has certainly been a lot more helpful to me
than flamage.


|> Briefly, taking-off with ANY frost, snow, ice on the aircraft
|> ANYWHERE is foolish. Basically the frost, snow, ice destroys the
|> aerodynmaic efficiency (characteristics) of the wing and adds weight
|> etc. So far you have gotten away with this but if you continue
|> you WILL have problems that could lead to loss of control and
|> a crash.

Well, that's a fairly strong statement, and I don't necessarily disagree
with the fundamental wisdom in what you are saying (despite the rather
strongly worded way of stating it).  The reason I asked the question was
because when I have done this (alone, way below max gross, thin layer of
smooth frost) I have not experienced _any_ noticable difference in the
way the airplane flew.  Granted, I did not test for changes in stall speed.
In fact, I carried a little extra speed before rotating and climbing to
compensate for such a change.  I certainly was not recommending that anyone
take off with frost on their wings.  It is not a practice anyone should
make a habit of.  Mainly, I was trying to find out just unsafe it truly
is, given the precautions and so forth.

|> 
|> Recommendation: Don't do it again. Get ALL the frost, snow, ice
|>                 off the aircraft before flying. Be picky.
|> Dave Rogers
|> Professor of Aerospace Engineering

-- 
***********************************************************************
 Jim Burke	"Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!"
 Teknekron Software Systems		... burke@tss.com
 phone:(415) 617-2432			... uunet!tekbspa!burke
From: jmmatthe@apgea.army.mil (Jeffrey M. Matthews <jmmatthe>)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:44:12 GMT
Organization: CRDEC APG

In article <BzCxKD.F6@mach1.wlu.ca> eandersn@mach1.wlu.ca (Niels Ejvind Andersen) writes:
>Jim Burke (burke@tss.com) wrote:
>: Often, when I fly out of Lampson field near Clear Lake California, there is
>: an accumulation of frost on the wings early in the morning... I don't feel
>: comfortable with any amount of frost at all.  On the other hand, I have
>: sometimes smoothed off the frost to a thin layer (not more than 1/8") with a
>: cloth and taken off...  My question is this - what do others realistically
>: do in situations where it is not feasible to remove frost completely...
>: I'd be very interested in the thoughtful comments of other pilots.
>: Again, I am well aware that no amount of frost is good.  Is there any
>: amount that can safely be considered acceptable for a safe takeoff under
>: the conditions I have described?  Thanks.
>
>In Canada, it is illegal to take off with frost on the flight surfaces.
>Personally, I wouldn't do it, even if it were legal.  If you have frost on 
>the wings, you no longer know the exact stall speed of your aircraft in its 
>various flap configurations.  As the saying goes, if you have frost on the
>wings, you are a "test pilot"!
>--
>Niels Ejvind Andersen       eandersn@mach2.wlu.ca / 70511.2302@compuserve.com
>Information Systems, Wilfrid Laurier University, Waterloo, ON  N2L 3C5 Canada
>                                                                  ... VFR NC4

Knowing the "exact" stall speed of an aircraft (in the unlikely event that
one ever does) doesn't help much if you don't know your exact airspeed
(which is usually the case).  That said, yes, you are a test pilot, and
a pretty poorly paid one at that.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence for safe flight with some frost; how-
ever, most of those anecdotes seem to involve pretty funky airfoils to be-
gin with.  Just because it works with a Cub (USA 35B), Champ (4412) or
172 (2412) doesn't mean that it will work on something built for speed.
The more or less laminar flow airfoils are a lot less tolerant of that
sort of malarkey, and most of the horror stories about frost seem to in-
volve them.

The frost doesn't melt in flight, by the way.  It sublimes without passing
through the liquid state, which can happen well below the freezing point.

J. Matthews
Standard Disclaimers Apply
From: RandyL@MCES.MsState.Edu (Randy Loper)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: GPS/LORAN information needed???
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:23:31 GMT
Organization: Mississippi Cooperative Extension Service

Let me begin by saying that I am posting this message on behalf of a
friend, and I do not entirely understand what it is that I am asking.
So, if I ask something that doesn't entirely make sense, please forgive
me, and no flames please.

Anyway, the December issue of _FLYING_ magazine in the "REPORTING POINTS"
section states that the KLN 90 GPS navigation system by Bendix/King
became avaliable in September.  The article states that this model
combines GPS positioning with a "...worldwide Jeppesen NavData database."

For someone who might have one of these units or who might know the
answers to these questions, here goes...

What information does the database contain?

Does the database show ALL restricted airspace and frequencies of
the controlling agency for such restricted airspace (i e MOA's, etc)?

Does this system contain an alert feature for restricted airspace?

How is the database updated (magnetic cards, sent back to factory,
new rom chip, etc.)?

Any other pertinent information about the KLN 90 would be appreciated.

Also, if anyone has this same type information for the latest
Northstar LORAN and/or GPS units, that information would be
appreciated also.

Due to the fact that this may not be a topic that is of great interest
to others in the newsgroup, EMAIL'ed responses can  be sent to me
at RandyL@MCES.MsState.EDU.

After December _18th_, my system will be shut down for maintenance
and MAY NOT be avaliable again until January.  Therefore, if you get
messages 'returned to sender', please email them again to me in January.

Thanks a million....
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Frost accumulation
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:48:20 GMT
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy

In article <BzBC6K.AEL@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
!Often, when I fly out of Lampson field near Clear Lake California, there is
!an accumulation of frost on the wings early in the morning.  This usually
!occurs when the overnight low has dipped to 30 degrees or so - it seldom
!gets much below the high twenties.  On some 
!occassions it has been quite thick, perhaps as much as 1/4".  I don't feel
!comfortable with any amount of frost at all.  On the other hand, I have
!sometimes smoothed off the frost to a thin layer (not more than 1/8") with a
!cloth and taken off. Invariably, the temperature at 500' AGL is high enough
!to melt the frost right off.  The airport is in a basin surrounded by
!hills.  I have not experienced any climb problems at all when I have done
!this (field elevation is 1380').  My question is this - what do others
!realistically do in situations where it is not feasible to remove frost 
!completely.  Am I doing something grossly unsafe?  By the way, this is in
!a 172.  I'd be very interested in the thoughtful comments of other pilots.
!Again, I am well aware that no amount of frost is good.  Is there any
!amount that can safely be considered acceptable for a safe takeoff under
!the conditions I have described?  Thanks.

You are going to get so much mail and flames on this one that you
had better get out the fire hose and asbestos suit.

Briefly, taking-off with ANY frost, snow, ice on the aircraft
ANYWHERE is foolish. Basically the frost, snow, ice destroys the
aerodynmaic efficiency (characteristics) of the wing and adds weight
etc. So far you have gotten away with this but if you continue
you WILL have problems that could lead to loss of control and
a crash.

Recommendation: Don't do it again. Get ALL the frost, snow, ice
                off the aircraft before flying. Be picky.
Dave Rogers
Professor of Aerospace Engineering