HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eerbl@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Subject: Re: Kosher Slaughter
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:56:45 GMT
X-Posted-From: cc.newcastle.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


Ted Altar writes:  (He steals half my thunder as usuall)
> Maybe so, but what about the profound distress of the poor
> creature as it is shipped and herded into the abattoir?  The
> smells of distress and death are something non-hman animals
> are more sensitive to and reactive of, than humans.  The
> intelligence and sentience of these beings has all too often
> been self-servingly dismissed.  Russel, who kepts a "pet" herd
> of cows can give ample witness concerning their remarkable capacities
> and intelligence.  Russel, are you still there?  Help us out.

Oh, I'm still here. I just had to wait until I could get to the Library 
before I would contribute to this thread. (btw my normal newsfeed is a day or
two behind sites on the US backbone).

I don't normally get involved in debates about how painfull or distressing
slaughter is, since the thing which is really wrong is the destruction of a
conscious individual. A subject-of-a-life as Regan would put it. From my
perspective, what seems to be lacking in such arguments as this one is an 
understanding of and empathy for cattle as complex, thinking, feeling
individuals. Cattle are social creatures, who empathise with and learn from 
observing their peers. They form strong bonds of attachment, not only with
their young, but with other members of their herd. 

I know many cattle personally. They are quintessentially peacfull, often
playfull and always profoundly curious about their world. They feel more than
just hunger and thirst. They feel driven by the need to make sense of their
world on their own terms just as you and I do. They do not just live in the
present. They remember events past. Even many years as is often the case when
they have been traumatised at human hands. Cows can feel hope and confusion.
Most importantly, their world is as important to them as yours is to you.

In short, to kill a cow, is a far greater act of vandalism than most would
imagine. And it is about time that people stopped pretending that they are
dealing with barely sensate lumps of flesh and realise that they are dealing
with the most highly evolved mammals aside from the cetaceans and apes.


Yes, I do have a herd of cattle. The oldest two are 13 years old; the youngest
just over 2. They are free to live as they wish. They are more or less my
children. I have been priviledged to witness how cattle behave when they are
not treated with contempt. Have you ever seen a cow roll over on her side to
have her belly itched? There are several people who have met my cows who are
now vegetarian. They stared the truth, quite literally, in the face.

I am going to continue this thread at my leisure. It's almost Christmas and I
intend to spend some time on Christmas day lying under the shade of a tree with
a cow asleep beside me, her head pillowed in my lap.


Goodwill to all.


- Russel
From: red_trek@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: complete list of plant foods!
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:24:25 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Does somebody out there have a complete listing of all legumes,
fruits, vegetables and grains available to vegans (and even
omnivores) for consumption?  It'd be a great list to show
omnivores who think a vegan diet is monotonous and restricted.

I know of the following:

navy (white) beans
brown lentils
black-eye beans
black beans
red beans
green split peas
yellow split peas
kidney beans
garbanzo (chick) peas
northern beans
white kidney beans
red lentils
green lentils
mung beans
ansaki beans
adzuki beans
black lentils
--------------------
pasta
bread -- bagels, pita, etc
cereals
rice (gourmet basmati, brown rice, white rice, short medium and long
	grain etc)
potatoes
couscous
quinoa
millet
barley
oats
teff
-----------
pears
oranges
apples
plums
peaches
melons (cantelopes, honeydew, watermelon, wintermelon, etc)
etc
--------
corn (white and yellow)
peas
carrots
green beans
zuchinni
yellow squash
acron squash
spaghetti squash
lima beans (or list as legume??)
artichokes (and artichoke hearts)
heart of palm
etc etc

Help me complete this list!!  Many thanks!

--Andrea Shettle
From: abulsari@abo.fi (Abhay Bulsari VT)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Artifical Fur Manufacturers - Request for Info.
Date: 25 Dec 92 08:39:44 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University

In article <18876@mindlink.bc.ca> Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca (Jack Webb) writes:
>> Abhay Bulsari VT writes:
>>
>> Similarly why fur, even if artificial ? Fur is not socially acceptable
>> in many places.
>>
>> Abhay
>>
>> Tell me what this post has to do with vegetarian food and why it
>> should be in alt.shit instead. Thanks.
>
>
>Abhay, I agree with your opinions on why fur and meat in the first place, but
>I think that anything that someone who is vegetarian has to say is valid in
>the veg. area... as I said before, it's a lifestyle, not just a matter of
>what you eat.  You don't seem to be very tolerant of the opinions of others
>and of issues that matter to other vegetarians... we are not all alike, and
>should be glad of it!!

I  somehow don't  understand  this. Is it the last statement which you
have misinterpreted which makes you write this ?

>
>Stop being so negative... Your "alt.shit" comment belongs in some other
>forum!!

Am I being negative ? That "alt.shit" comment is to myself in sarcasm.
Someone (or  more than one) will  post  a followup  saying that what I
posted had no  vegetarian  food  in  it  and I should  go  post  it to
alt.shit  instead.  (If I  meant this remark  to the  original poster,
which I did not,  it would have read: Tell me what this post has to do
with vegetarian food  and  why it should  NOT be in  alt.shit instead.
Thanks.)

Abhay

>
>*j*
>--
>WE SAIL TONIGHT FOR SINGAPORE - WE'RE ALL AS MAD AS HATTERS HERE!!
>
>*******************Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca***********************
>****VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA...HOME OF THE NEUROTIC****
From: amacdona@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Comfort foods for colds
Date: 2 Jan 93 13:23:18 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1993Jan2.032900.1604@voodoo.ca.boeing.com>, das@emmapeel.ca.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes:
> Happy New Year, everyone.  I'm celebrating by having a whopping cold.
> So, does anyone have a good vegetarian equivalent for Mom's chicken
> soup?  Also, what do y'all like to eat when you're feeling rotten?
> 
> Will type in the recipe for the awesome stuffed squash I made for
> Christmas dinner when I'm feeling better.
> ------
> Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // ....uw-beaver!bcsaic!voodoo!das


-	Happy New Year!  This is a recipe for the soup I make at the
very first hint of a possible sniffle - usually it stops the cold from
growing.

Cold Remedy Soup
	Heat about 2-3 tblsp oil and 3-4 birds'-eye chilies in the 
soup pot for about 3-4 minutes.  Keep an eye on it, because it's easy
to burn the chilies.  When they turn dark, take them out.  Then add
3-4 cloves of chopped garlic and some chopped fresh ginger.  Saute
briefly, then add whatever chopped vegetables appeal.  I usually add
red or green pepper and zuchinni, onion, and mushrooms, all slivered to
make them easier for a sore throat.  Then add water, to make a thin
soup, and heat.  Midway between cold and boiling, take out a cup 
or two of the water and dissolve about 1/2 cup of miso in it. Stir it
back into the soup, add some tamari and sliced green onions, and heat
to eating temperature.  If you don't have birds'-eye chilies, try
adding cayenne pepper or other dried pepper - the hotness really
opens up the sinuses.

-  Allison MacDonald 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: young@clpd.kodak.com (Rich Young)
Subject: Re: Organically grown foods (was Re: What's the Best Juicer)
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@clpd.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 00:22:10 GMT

In article <c188-am.724895419@po.berkeley.edu> c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi) writes:

[...]

>"'Look at the mess we've gotten ourselves into,' Colnel Aureliano Buendia
>  said at that time, 'just because we invited a gringo to eat some bananas.'"
>			--Gabriel Garcia Marquez,
>			One Hundred Years of Solitude
>
>
>In Harper's Style:
>
>Total Volume, in pounds, of bananas imported by the
>United States from 1983 to 1985		17,620,058,245
>
>Total number of imported bananas tested for pesticide
>residues during the same period		160
>
>Percentage of pesticides used on bananas that can
>be detected				less than 50

[...]

	A relevant factoid from a report on CNN this morning: 33 acres of
	rainforest a day are being cleared....

	....for bananas.


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
From: jaj@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Jill A. Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: yet more questions
Date: 2 Jan 1993 13:50:28 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu








Can someone please send out a glossary to the list or to me personally telling
what exactly all these terms such as OCTO-Vegetarian and LACTO-OCTO and 
whatever else I'm missing.  :)  I figured out the LACTO, but the others I'm
having trouble with. Thanks.

Jill
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: vivianm@src.dec.com (Vivian Manganello)
Subject: Re: Medicine and The Mall
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:23:56 GMT



>From: avi@seal.imagen.com
>Subject: Re: Medicine and The Mall
>Date: 16 Dec 92 23:13:17 GMT


>1. Yes, I am a (lacto) vegetarian.

>2. Where do you draw the line ? That's EXACTLY my point !
>Why is killing cows and chickens unjustified but killing micro-organisms and
>plants, both of which are undoubtely ALIVE, is justified ?

>My point in all the previous posts, is to underline the fact that while
>vegetarianism is a great diet choice, one which I personally support and
>follow, NOT ALL reasons/causes for such a choice are logically justifiable.

>If one is a vegetarian for health reasons, that's fine and it makes sense,
>too. If one abstains from Meat consumption because "I love animals and I 
>don't like them dead" then one is unfortunately either an ignorant or a
>hypocrite.  

>It is not the vegetarian diet choice that is in question here but the 
>educated and logical motivation behind it.

I have to disagree with you.  You cannot place plants and animals in the same
category. Yes plants are living and there have been tests to determine they are
sensitive.  I don't see however that they are as sensitive as animals. I would
like to see documentation that plants bleed when wounded and cry out in pain. 
When I see that, I will be a fruitarian.  
Am I correct in assuming that you are a vegetarian only for health reasons?  I
don't see how you can call someones beliefs ignorant or hypocritical. That in
itself is very narrow minded. 
I even read the excerpt from the "Secret Life of Plants" that was posted.  The
only conclusion that I could make was that the plant seemed to react to what he
did to himself from miles away. I felt the excerpt was inconclusive. It was
actually comical. He writes "hair was difficult to kill"  hair is already dead,
what is he talking about? 
And you did not fully address my issue of the micro-organisms and while we are at
it bugs.  I have a question for you. If your house just happened to be infested
with ants, what would you think the proper thing to do?  Let them crawl all over
and live with you, or kill them?  (Not you in particular, obviously you think
that people that are vegetarians for moral reasons are fools)
From: srm@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Simon Monk)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Limited vegetarianism of India
Date: 22 Dec 92 12:04:28 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing at Lancaster University, UK.

In article <1992Dec21.205127.1242@hou.amoco.com> zkym02@hou.amoco.com writes:
>
>
>Typically religious people do not have really gruelling work... they don't need
> meat, vegetables and beans and cereals can provide them with enough energy.
>
>Warriors need lots of meat in order to have the strength to protect the country.. they
>eat meat to make the strong and powerful.
>
>Merchants and farmers have physically demanding jobs but not so much as the waririor so
>they eat fish and poultry to help them sustain jobs.
>
>

I think perhaps cause and effect are confused here, I think that warriors
(aggressive and strong people) eat a lot of meat because to get meat, you have
to be stong and aggressive to the point of being able to kill animals. To hunt
them if you like.

The farmer takes a more pragmatic view. They have animals readily available so
its easly for them to be killed and eaten (ignoring the morals for now) they
enjoy the taste.

Religious people are gernerally of a sensitive nature and therefore probably
have a natuarl disinclination for killing.

There is no medical reason, (at least with a Western Vegitarian diet) why
you should not achieve a strong body without eating any meat. Its more your
lifestyle that affects your strength. If you train with weights, or work
in the fields, you WILL become strong whatever you eat (within sensible
limits). You only have to look at two famous vegitarians  Ed Moses and
Carl Lewis (If I recall correctly) to know this is true.

Simon Monk - If you love animals please try not to eat them, they dont like it.
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: yumei@wam.umd.edu (yumei)
Subject: Re: Looking for a good meatless cookbook
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:17:58 GMT


     I am not sure how others feel about it, but I really like the Moosewood
Cookbook.  My only problem with this book is that the recipes tend to produce
meals that can feed ten people each time (I mean they are huge in quantity.)

                                                 Yumei

-- 

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com
Subject: Re: Dick Gregory and Vegetarian Pets
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:48:02 GMT

In article <altar.724704726@sfu.ca>, altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:
> 
> Dick Gregory, the well-known comedian turn pacifist wrote:
>                              ^^^^^^^^
>      People are funny about their pets and their pets' diet.
>      When you suggest to some folks that they ought to try
>      putting their dogs and cats on a meatless diet, they will
>      respond as though their little pets had never been
>      domesticated!  They will say, "Dogs and cats are supposed to
>      eat meat.  After all, they're descended from tigers and
>      wolves!"  Of course, if there was any real practicing line
>      of descent, the chances are the pets would already have
>      consumed their owners and their owners' kids!

[snip]

Ah, so in the process of domestication, these animals have evolved
a different physiology from their wild cousins?  SUUUUURRRRE!
Remember, this comes from a *COMEDIAN* not a *VETERNARIAN*.  I have
an enormous amount of respect for Dick Gregory as an activist, but
he has no background that makes him an authority on animal nutrition 
and physiology.

As far as all this vegan cat stuff is concerned, STOP DOING CRUEL
EXPERIMENTS ON YOUR LOVING PET!!!!!  IF YOU SCREW UP (and you will)
YOUR CAT WILL GO BLIND OR SUFFER FROM HEART DISEASE!!!!!  IT TAKES
YEARS BUT THE DAMAGE WILL BE IRREVERSABLE BEFORE SYMPTOMS SHOW UP.  

Ted Feuerbach - Scientific Systems Consultant 
Biologist, Medical Technologist and rescuer of dozens of starving,
malnurished, injured and/or abandoned cats and kittens over the years. 
Disclaimer:     Monsanto didn't say this, I did!
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: young@clpd.kodak.com (Rich Young)
Subject: Re: aspartame
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@clpd.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 22:23:47 GMT

In article <19008@mindlink.bc.ca> Jack_Webb@mindlink.bc.ca (Jack Webb) writes:

[...]

>unsure of what the source of it is, but thought you might be interested to
>know that a lot of people are sensitive to it... migraines, etc.

	The following information may be useful and informative.  There is
	no credible evidence that aspartame causes migraines.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Article 19869 of sci.med:
Newsgroups: alt.support.diet,sci.med
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Nutrasweet, phenylaline and brain shrinkage
Keywords: nutrasweet, sweeteners, phenylaline, aspartame, health, diet,
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1992 18:15:50 GMT

[...much of original article deleted...]

There are people who report headaches or migraines or other untoward
effects after ingesting foods containing aspartame.  Double-blind
controlled studies which have challenged individuals from this population
with aspartame or placebo have shown that aspartame appears to be no more
or less prone to elicit these effects than the placebo.  The bottom line
there is that it's unlikely that aspartame is a contributing factor,
but as always, if doing something makes you feel bad, don't do it.
This holds true for foods containing aspartame as well.

[...]

Article 14467 of rec.food.veg:
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: drew@cs.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Immune system
Date: 21 Dec 1992 15:42:14 +1100
Organization: Computer Science Department, ANU, Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.anu.edu.au
Keywords: FAQ

hagop@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Hagop D. Janoyan) writes:
>Did eating sausage actually hurt my immune system?

Doubt it. You're concern and mental agitation had almost certainly the
greatest impact on your health. (It is possible to worry yourself sick,
you know.)

Dr John Tickell, a well known Australian speaker on the subject of health
likes to point out the following factors in strengthening one's immune 
system:
  eat vegetables at least 5-6 times/week
  eat meat no more than 2 times/week
  laugh, tell/listen/read jokes
  hug family members
  sex with one's spouse :-)
  take time to "smell the roses"
  engage in moderate exercise at least 3 times per/week

Of course as a vegetarian you can score bonus points on item 2.

Drew.
From: feathers@eskimo.com (Cheryl)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Vegetarians or not vegetarians?
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:45:56 GMT
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>


   Claudia, I agree with you about the prejudicial effects of everyone
announcing their dietary "category."  I've read this newsgroup long
enough to see enough examples of what you referred to, as I'm sure have
others.  My friend Jeff has rules he uses to deal with what he calls the
"True Believer" mentality.  You find it with abortion, with various
religious beliefs, and here on rec.food.veg.  There's nothing whatever
wrong about having strongly held beliefs, but a lot of us just don't
want to fight about them or engage in debates with True Believers when
we've seen that there's likely to be more heat generated than light. 
I'm here to learn and enjoy and share, not to hold my diet and beliefs
up for general scrutiny because some people would like to be able to
sort people into nice, neat categories.  
-- 
     Cheryl
     feathers@eskimo.com
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Kosher slaughter (was Re: Medicine & the Mall)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:13:28 GMT


Sean Engelson writes:
>I am most sensitive to your concerns (indeed, I too am a vegetarian),
>but your comments address all slaughter; please keep in mind that the
>subject at hand is Kosher vs.  non-Kosher slaughter.  The point made
>above is that the act of slaughter itself is painless, being done by a
>single swift cut with a razor-sharp knife.  Far better than a bullet
>or three to the head.  There is no doubt, of course, that the cows
>would be far better off were they not to be killed---that is not
>disputed by anyone.

I guess my understanding is that Kosher slaughter, which originally
was indeed an human advancement over what was then the more
cruel practices of those times, is today somewhat an anachronism at 
least with respect to the issue of minimizing the pain and suffering
of animal slaughter.  Yes, there is the Jewish mystical element about
ingesting the spirit of animal blood likewise affects the human
spirt, but it has been argued by good people within the faith
itself that logically this would entail eating no meat at all 
since one cannot physically remove all blood from meat products.

But you're right.  The issue, as unplatable as it is for us,
is that of which method of animal slaughter produces the
least amount of pain and suffering.  From my readings on the
matter, it would seem that Kosher killing is "today" the less
humane.  Conventional slaughter would use electical stunning
and then a gunpowder driven bolt through the brain.  Of course
the actual practice may be quite different, but from first hand
accounts of the two methods of slaughter by people whose
interests is for the most merciful killing of the animal,
Kosher killing is today the LESS merciful.

					ted
From: mbevan@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Mark Bevan)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: The Christian Argument for Vegetarianism
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 12:22:32 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Wow, now that was comedy at its best, My friends and I laugh for a hour
on that, please do a follow-up!! 
Well, I'm taking my friend hunting tommorrow (I don't hunt.. I enjoy 
the outdoors, He hunts... he also enjoys the outdoors), I also like 
moose meat and deer meat (My friend so far this year has got 6 deer
and 2 moose).
BTW We are Christians (Not the bleeding heart liberal type):)

Mark Bevan              mbevan@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: VEGAN:  Bill's NYE Dinner, the recipes, part 1
From: mad4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Maddex)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:38:56 GMT
Reply-To: mad4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Pranksters for Peace

Arame Bread, from Friendly Foods by Brother Ron Pickarski, Berkeley, Ten Speed
1991.  Buy this book.  

1/4 C dried arame
2T Sucanat
2T yeast
2 1/2 C warm water
2 1/4 C whole wheat flour
2 3/4 C unbleached flour
1t salt
1T ginger powder
1T garlic powder
2T oil


Mix yeat, Sucanat, arame and 1C water and let sit 5 mins to activate yeast.
Combine flours, salt and seasonings.  Add oil and yeast and mix well.  Add
remaining water and mix to medium stiff.  Roll out air pockets, divide into
two rolls, put into 9" loaf pans and let rise until doubled.  Punch down, let
double again, and bake @375 30-40 minutes.

Wheat Berry Caviar, from Yamuna's Table (forget the publisher but it came out
this past fall) The author of the monumental Art of Indian Vegetarian Cooking
gives an Indian spin to European gourmet stuff w/very exciting results.  
Check it out.

3/4 C wheat berries
1t coarsely greated fresh ginger
1/2T coarsely chopped jalapeno
1/4t mustard seed (we went w/yellow)
1/4t fennel seed
1 1/4C pitted black olives (we went 1/2 Kalamat 1/2 California mild)
2T olive oil
2T tomato veg juice

Put wheat berries into a saucepan w/5C water and bring to a boil.  Boil 2 
minutes, then let sit an hour.  Bring to a rapid simmer and cook another hour,
being sure there's enough water.  (this is time consuming, but it gives them
a perfect tooth)

W/food processor on, add all spices.  When spices are minced, add olives, oile,
salt and juice.  Process until nearly purreed.  Stir in wheat berries and serve
garnished w/cilantro.


Billy Magic


	"So A.J. arrives with six Bolivian Indians who chew coca leaves between
courses.  And when Robert, in all his gourmet majesty, bears down on the table,
A.J. looks up and yells:  'Hey, Boy!  Bring me some ketchup.'
	"(Alternative:  A.J. whips out a bottle of ketchup and douses the 
haute cuisne.)



Newsgroups: rec.food.veg