From: RUBAN@hartford.bitnet ("Timur Y. Ruban")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: RE: Re: Some Thoughts On Culture (was  Re: Re: RENAME ?!!)
Date: 22 Dec 92 12:28:00 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

From:         Sergei Borodin <sergei@UPENN5.HEP.UPENN.EDU>

)In article <SCS-L%92121913333521@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU> "soc.culture.soviet via
) ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
)>From:         Sergei Borodin <sergei@UPENN5.HEP.UPENN.EDU>
)
)>>  So, why don't you go ahead and show us, individuals with "soc" and
)>>  "soviet" backgrounds only, some examples of "culture". A to pizdet'
)                                                               ^^^^^^^
)>>  to vse gorazdy.
)
)>I have just shown one, Serez'a.  Thank you - I did not have to go and for
)>examples.
)
)  "This is not an answer". I asked you to show us examples of culture,
)  confirming my "soc" and "soviet" backgrounds.
)  Anyway, I kinda apologize if the tone of my article was, let's say,
)  rude.

Appologies accepted, no prob.  Actually (believe it or not) I was not talking
particularly about you in my first post - in my turn, appologies that did not
underlined the word "some" - though I thought I mentioned that "There are people
"
and did not say "all".)

      Once again, you are asking me to show you examples of 'culture,
confirming your 'soc' and 'soviet' backgrounds".
     You see, the point is that even that we are talking about such things is
already a sign of culture (though the tone and language we use sometimes may
damage its reputation).
      In my first post I was talking actually about absence of culture,
By meaning 'absolute zero'.  BTW, I consider (my personal opinion) usage of
'mat' in public places as one of signs that one is moving in that
direction (a good 'hot' word sometimes does not hurt, but in certain quantities
and not in public discussions).  There are certain standards and values and
ethics, which indicates other signs (like don't eat with your legs, for instan-
ce :-) and don't chew during conversation - disclaimer: it's not about you,
but in general :-) .
     And definitely (this how it's started) I was talking about the way some
of discussions are handled in this forum - rude, vulgar from time to time,
with no respect to opponent (I mean one does not have to respect, but showing
it all over the place is really way out of hands).
  Regarding 'soc' and 'soviet' culture - I think that there is more than one.
Sovok raised a lot of different subcultures.  Many of them are completely
opposite (look at the people at this network, their styles and ways of
conversations, their topics) and at the same time have some similarities -
I think we were discussing in the beginning of the year "characteristics of
real Sovok",so you could, if you want, check some of archives on listserv.
  I cannot give the full names, characteristics and indicators of such
subcultures, as I do not have enough knowledge, yet, to analyze the sociology
of x-USSR.  Yet, it does not mean that they do not exist - once again one can
clearly see it on the distribution of people in this forum.
  On any 'sign' of culture I'll say one can always give me an example of
subculture in Soyuz that did not have this 'characteristic' and our discussion
may transform into sophistics instead of useful dialog.
  I would be glad, actually, if in this net we all could sit and try to figure
out what makes us the way we are. Even more, we each could give an image of what
is our Sovok looks like (our foreign friends are welcomed to participate, too)
and in the end combine these images into one "The Great Average Sovok".  What
do you say, let's try?
  For instance, someone said that Sovoks are always ignorant to how surrounding
will look at them.  Are too straight forward.  Too impolite.  Too loud.  I mean,
there are many 'prejudices', but the point is that all these characteristics
I can find in myself, and sometimes not!  Even more, I can find completely
opposite.
  I am Sovok.  Maybe not in a sense as some people in this forum.  Maybe soc.
soviet and culture for me mean completely different things then for somebody
who is just reading my post.  My speach, way of conversation, topics I discuss,
values, ethics, way of life - this what my culture consists of.  The same way
as your consists of yours.  And definitely they do not have to be the same
(another prejudice - Sovok always is trying to convert surrounding into his/her
beliefs and ideas, make them agree with what he/she thinks and knows, to pre-
vail).
  Anyway, I would prefer to have a consensus and discussion on the topic about
culture (as long as we are in soc. culture.soviet anyway), so that it won't
be just a monologue of one individuum.

)>          * Development of software and users activities in x-USSR.
) Particular-
)>ly appearance of hacker's ideology as one of the main "commendments" of averag
e
)>Sovok-user.  Just out of curiousity - what happened to DVKs, Agats and
) Microsha?
)
) Hacker ideology is not particulary soviet "commendment". Hackers exist all
)  over the world. In "soviet" case it also involves the fact that a stupid game
 ) (average $30) costs more than the work of qualified programmer. And if we
 ) take into an account the price of a good CAD package - an absolute necessaty
 ) to make any modern design - we'll see that a bunch of programmers, needed to
 ) remove a copyright protection from that package, will still be uncomparable
 ) less.

Indeed, 'hacker' and 'cracker' are international concepts.  But somehow it
have hapened that it became a part of mentality of Soviet average user.
There are so many people here, in US, for instance, who will be surprised
and even shocked at the offer to give or take a copy of software package.
Well, for my 7 years of being in Soviet computer world (both school, work and
hobby) I did not find anybody who'd even think about buying of software.  I
mean literally, they just never had this thought.  I know people who were
going into cybernetics without knowledge that their work can be marketable (and
by the way it is the same thing in many other areas of science in USSR).
  You write a program or package - you give it to people to use.  Otherwise
what's use from it?  And the same way you get things.  After getting dozens
of homemade programs no one would ask : "Wait, is this a commercial program
you are giving me?  You, .... Hey, call the Interpol - you are busted!" :-)
  Software is knowledge.  Selling software means keeping monopoly on knowledge.
Means preventing somebody from knowing things.  And it is despite the fact
that a person who created software, for instance, received his/her knowledge
for free or at much lower cost (Did anybody sell that 2+2=4 ?) BTW, another
interesting observation about culture of soviet hackers - the authors rights
on the hacked program are always kept - usually the name of hacker added to
the list, and that's it.  Ethics is Ethics.

  And still, does anybody in the nets know what happened to old soviet/e.euro-
pean computers?  Some of them had pretty good potential.

Well, gotta go now - the last paper due and I am as free as a bird.  Break has
started so I'll be able to participate in discussions more and reply at all
posts directed to me (I did not do it sometimes - here is another sign of
'bezkul'tur'ya', Serez'a, but just one my side, now).

S privetom,
Timur