From: chrisa@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone)
Subject: Re: Changing nature of God
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:37:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.232418.20449@bain3.bain.oz.au> callum@bain3.bain.oz.au (Callum Gibson) writes:
>You make it sound as though God has to show off his muscles to keep us in
>line.  It is far from that.  We follow God by _choice_.  The thickness is
>continuing disbelief that God is mighty (as we see in Isaiah where the
>Israelites turned to Egypt to protect them from the Assyrians rather than God
>because they didn't think he could save them) but not in a way that keeps
>them in line, rather in a way that _protects_ them.  Remember that God is
>perfectly just (as you said in your other post).  That is why He must punish
>sin.  Blatant disobedience cannot go unpunished.

Can a poor human being ask what does one mean by 'just' when referring to God?
Is this justice similar to notions of justice that are used in moral philosophy,
law or even common thought? Does this sort of justice have any correspondance to
fairness? Or have christians somehow constructed a new concept to describe God
and simply appropriated a commonly used word for rhetorical and other reasons?

Lets have a quick look at what this 'just' God has done in its time, or more
correctly in tales written about it. This god created humankind knowing full-
well that it had the ability to sin. Because this god is credited as being all-
knowing, it would follow that this god would alsoo know full-well that these
humans would sin (whatever sin is...). More than that, the christian world-view
is a teleological world-view... it is designed for a purpose. It would seem to
follow that humankind, being part of the world would also have a final cause or
purpose. If this is the case, then this god created humankind not only in the
knowledge of the potential for sin, but in the knowledge that it would sin, and
because humankind has a purpose, it would seem that this god had created human-
kind so that it would sin to achieve the god's purpose. This last step needs onem
more bit of support, it is commonly believed that this god knows what it is
doing, that it is wise and the like, so that it would seem that this god had
planned things to be the way that they are.  Lets take a closer look at the
system that we have, then. 

It would seem that this god has created humankind so that, to achieve its 
purpose, whatever that is, some elements of it would sin. Now, it is argued that
sin is going against the will of this god, but from the above it would seem that
indeed, sin is a part of the will of this god, as it is a part of a system that
this god has built with full knowledge and for a purpose. So, this god will then
punish a person for sinning, when that sin is a planned part of creation, and
eventually an act of will of god. This constitutes the 'justice' of this god?

Well, an interesting objection to all of this is that a person, john, say, 
has the freedom to choose to or not to sin. This is a very deep and it would
seem almost intractible philosophical question: the question of freedom and
determination. If we accept for the moment that there is such a thing as free
will in the world, and that human beings partake in it, it would seem that we
may just find a way out of blaming this god for the sin of john. There are a
number of responses to this, one is to ask simply for a justification of one's
belief in free will.  This will necessarily involved all concerned in a nasty
philosophical debate, unless they cop out by reverting to faith. Alternatively
one can point out that since this god is all-knowing, this god knew from the
outset that john would have just that set of dispositions, and be in just the
right set of circumstances that john would sin. If this is the case, does it not
look like that god is still responsible for john's sin, even though john did
choose to sin as such? And if this is the case, then again, how can one call this
god a just god?

Even if we weaken the response even more, by granting that somehow this god isnt
responsible for the particular sins of our unfortunate test human john, there 
still seems to be a problem. Maybe in this case, this god is correct in judging
john and finding john unworthy of eternal life, and maybe in this manner it can
be said that this particular judgement is a just judgement. But it still seems
that because this god did create a universe in the full knowledge that at least
some would sin, to achieve the purposes of this god, that the arrangement is
still somehow unjust, and as such, the god is also unjust. It says "you shall
judge a tree by its fruit" in the bible, and when one looks at the fruit of the
god of the christians, at least i am inclined to scratch my head when dealing
with questions of justice. 

chris.