From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Fund for Animals' true agenda revealed?
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:47:09 GMT

unglenie@ford.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:

`Scott Wood writes:
`>(ie liberating animals to starvation and little or no care)

`Explain to me how someone liberates a wild animal to starve to death?
`Granted, a hunter would do this, but the animal ends up dead anyway!

But these are not wild animals.  They are domesticated.  Or at least thats
is what the rest of us were talking about....

`>People who's license dollars and club dues and hands-on efforts attribute
`>to more feeding, 

`which increases the population they are trying to control.....

Duh?!?!?  No it doesn't.  What have I been saying over and over.  The increase
in population decreases food.  Increasing food helps support existing
populations and hasn't near the effect on numbers as lack of food does.
Good food supplies produce healthy deer.  Perhaps you are getting confused
with the fact that as a result, healthy deer produce healthier - more
resilient off spring.  Thus can help influence positive population growth.
And I personally would like to see a well 'managed' healthy deer population
with hunting than an uncontrolled abundance of diseased deer and destroyed
plant and animal life.

`> and actual good for wild animals (not just game animals) 

`except for the game animals since they end up dead

I suppose you cry for them when a coyote does manage to catch up with one?
Or when a car hits one?  Or how about when lack of food leads them to starve?
Predators are a natural part of the world.  Just because man uses tools that
make him able to get it over with faster (guns/bows) that does not remove
him from the scheme.  And I should point out, that legal hunting sets limits
on the animals taken - mother nature doesn't.  Nor does she care about
present populations when she kills more animals off (by disease, predators,
starvations, etc)

`>than any other group - AR or otherwise - anywhere.

`What of the groups that own non-hunting habitat sanctuaries?

That are funded by federal and state moneys and grants you mean?  One of
my favorite hunting areas for water fowl is essentially restricted to
hunting but is funded by state money.  Every year, migratory birds stop
on their way south in an estuary off of Saginaw Bay.  They come by the
thousands.
But they do take a small section of land to the south and plant it and later
flood it so they can control excess populations of ducks, geese and pheasant.
And it is all state funded (the main portion of which comes from hunting
proceeds, and a large number of the fowl in the reserves are protected
species anyway)
I can also think of a good many animal and bird reserves in the country that
have been at least partially funded by hunting revenues.  (ie that is what
I meant by "non-game animals" benefit as well)

`>I know for a fact that without
`>the revenues from hunting in my state, there would be probably one
`>tenth of the state recreation areas in this state.

`What of the boat licensing fees, park use fees, tax dollars?

Well, if you are saying that non-hunting non-fishing uses of these areas
are helpful for them, I beg to differ.  The state areas in the state of
Michigan are closed to all forms of hunting between April 1 (day after close
of rabbit season) until September 14 (day before small game opens) with
the exception of areas that participate in early goose season.
I spend a great deal of time (3-5 days a week) in these areas between Sept 15
and March 31.  I always carry a small garbage bag with me when I hunt.  Every
year I pick up and fill about 20-40 bags of trash in the areas I frequent.
This is mostly in the first few weeks, after which I see no more accumulation
of debris.
By the following year, after all the "normal folks" have been through, I have
to start all over again.  As I commented, I do not find much trash and in
fact have encouraged other hunters to pick-up by giving away bags and talking
to people after season begins.  The majority of the trash is from the non
hunting/fishing use of the land.
As for boat licensing, there are six very large lakes in central Oakland
county that have been closed to swimming due to the high levels of petroleum
spillage from recreation (non-fishing) boat use.  There is also an epidemic
of spreading of a Korean aquatic plant that is killing off entire lake
ecosystems that is mainly spread by recreation boat use (our lake is one
of them) the plant rapidly spreads when chopped up by propellers as the
pieces can re-root.  That and even a small chunk stuck in a prop or on a
boat hull can start a new population in another lake in a reasonably short
span of time.
I, once again, prefer to leave it up to hunters - who for the most part are
both responsible, and self-policing (ie I go after the bad hunters)

`>And how in the hell do you intend to decrease breeding of wild animals?
`>That is preposterous.  I suppose you are going to spay and nueter them too?

`How about injecting them with anti-bodies that weaken the cell walls of the
`unfertilized egg, thus sterilizing them?  How about having hunters ONLY
`target females until the population is below the capacity of the land?

What is a doe permit?  Hmm, I thought maybe it was just for men that hated
females so they could take it out on a deer instead of a dear.  And how
ethical would it be to inject deer - I mean the drug would have had to
have been tested on lab animals to be sure it was safe for the deer....
                               (gotcha!)

`So, the reason that there are too many deer is because human intervention has
`has altered nature's balance?  Seems we can't do a good job of management.

We have improved environmental conditions to support larger populations,
but at the same time introduced an efficient and discerning predator to
provide a balance.  What's wronge with that?  I suppose your solution would
be to let the mature forests take over again, and we can all go back to
living in tee pees like the indians did before we got here?  Then again,
a tee pee was made out of deer hide - sorry!

`And what of the state's where natural predator reintroduction is being
`blocked, even though naturalists say it should be done? 

Examples...  If you're going to ask me for them, I will ask you for the
same.

`>`Question:  Does the club encourage/discourage killing of the females?
`>
`>What difference does it make?  

`If only females are taken, there are fewer offspring the next season making
`for more available habitat for the remaining animals.  This is population
`management and not hunting resource management.

Well, as I stated, the state controls the permits, and yes, the state
offers more female permits than males.  We just let permit holders in, and
I do think that in fact they limit the numbers on the male permit holders
allowed to hunt.

`>I have witnessed elk and elk damage first hand.  Until you have spent as
`>much time in the woods with them as I have, I would not question their
`>interaction with their environments ecology.
`>swood

`Why do you assume that I have not spent most of my early years in the great
`outdoors of the UP?

Well, you just proved my assumption.  There are no Elk in the U.P. STUPID!
The Elk populations in Michigan are centered in the north west portion in
about a 20 mile radius approximately around the city of Atlanta, Michigan.
Once again I suggest that you do not open your mouth on subjects when
you do not know what the HELL you are talking about.

`Why do you assume that I do not spend my weekends
`exploring many of the State and National Parks and Forests in the area 
`observing the wildlife, their habitat, and mans rape of the wilderness?

I did not assume that.  I stated that you have not witnessed the destruction
of ecology caused by Elk.  If you had, you would be a little less critical
of their management - believe me.

swood
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