From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:23:27 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BxyxoE.KC9@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
[..]
>> Polybios was
>> saying the same about Aetoleans (half-barbaric, their dialect
>> was not easy - if at all - for the rest of Greeks to
>> understand).

>Any chance of a reference, I'd like to read this.

You surprise me! Another anti-Greek "evidence" and you haven't
found it? Anyway, I do not remember the exact reference (all this
is from my personal readings during high-school and University
years). It is where the expedition of Ptolemaios Keraunos
(I am not certain here) against the "cities"
of the Aetoleans is attempted. Not decisive outcome. The cities
are mentioned as not "cities in the normal term", due to their
condition (not exactly up to the standards of the rest).

[..]
>> Plenty! However there is an important point here. I am under no
>> need to prove anything.

>I'm afraid you do, especially about your views on macedonia which are so
>extreme and ignore ancient evidence to the contrary.

>> Just to clarify and open(?) some eyes.
>> And on top of everything, there is an unexpected source: Turks
>> call Greece "Yunanistan" and Greek "Yunan"....

>Not sure this proves anything.

Figure it out for yourself. And now the *BEST* follows:

[..]
>Bits on Isocrates...

Edition: Harvard Univ Press, 1956, George Norlin.

(1) "PANEGYRICUS" 124-127 (actually 126) or p.198/9 of the book

"...
[ about Spartans]; and now they are laying siege to Olynthus
and Phlius; on the other hand, they are assisting Amyntas, king
of the Macedonians, and Dionysius, the tyrant of Sicily, and
the barbarian king who rules over Asia, to extend their
dominions far and wide.
...."

Clearly, by your own logic, Amyntas (Philip's father) and
Dionysius are Greek enough to be placed together and by name,
whereas the "barbarian king of Asia" is clearly non-Greek and
not even his name is mentioned.

(2)     "TO PHILIP" ( Your *own* source)

>Isocrates, To Philip either 106-108 or 103-104 (there are two standard
>ways of dividing the text)

>This is a huge amount of Greek and I just haven't time to write it all
>out.  What we learn is that the founder of the Argead dynasty wished to

32-33   (or pages 264-265 of the book)

[Addressing Philip of course]

".....
 Now you realize that it is not becoming in you to disregard
any of these cities if you will review their conduct in
relation to your ancestors; for you will find that each one of
them is to be credited with great friendship and important
services to your house: Argos is the land of your fathers,
                                     ********************
... [goes on about Hercules and his sons being the founders of
Macedonians, etc]"

So Philip is Greek according to Isocrates, eh? Why are you
bullshitting this network then?

(4) The SAME: 105-108 (or pages 308-310)

"..., I believe that both your own father [Amyntas II], and the
founder of your kingdom, and also the progenitor of your race -
were it lawful for Heracles and possible for the others to
appear as your councellors- would advise the very things, which
I have urged...."

The same stuff...

(5) The BEST: and realy *YOUR EXACT REFERENCE*  (just the next
couple of sentences. Come on learn how to read):

[Saying "The founder of your empire" - Perdikas I and not
Philip as you wrote]
 ...
>be a king.  Discovers that those who aim at this in their home towns
>cause civil strife, and therefore left the land of the Greeks altogether
>and aimed to become king of Macedonia.
>The reason he did it was because he knew the Greeks could not endure
>monarchy. The result being alone of kings he didn't rule over a kindred
>people (homophulon genos).
 ...

>The implication is clear. The Macedonians are not Greeks and this is the
>case whether we assume the Greeks here are a collective unity or a
>collection of city states.

"And so it came about, owing to his unique insight in this
regard, that his kingship has proved to be quite set apart from
that of the generality of kings: for because HE ALONE AMONG THE
HELLENES did not claim the right to rule over a people of
kindred race [actully "OMOFYLLOY GENOUS"], he alone was able to
escape the perils incident to one-man power...."

After this, whoever you are, there are two possibilities:

        (a) Someone gave you a stupid list to post in case you
needed arguments. Hence you are not a historian, but a clown,
since you could not read two sentences after the one you
quoted and used something out of context to create impressions.

        (b) You really are what you claim, in which case, no
hard feelings. It is only pitty I can feel now.

FINAL:  Obviously Isocrates speaks using the word "Hellenes" in
two ways:

        (a) The whole of the Greek peoples collectively.

        (b) Among Greeks to describe (roughly) the area from
the Homeric "HELLAS" southwards + the islands. E.g. The SAME 65
(or page 284/5) about Dionysius of Syracuse "...conquered all
the states of Sicily, which were of Hellenic origin, ...",
making the dual use of the term "Hellenic" obvious.

This concludes the time I have wasted in a simple "scanning" of
the speech. Isocrates is as rich as a diamond's mine! So,
back to the desk Andy. And remember, Greeks need to question a
lot about themselves (as every human being), but not their existence.
If they do it (philosophers, theologicians, etc), they only do
it as human beings; not as a group of people under orders.

>Andy

With all due respect

Panayotis

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