From: matwood%bullion.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Mark Atwood)
Subject: Re: Even more Mormonism!!!!!!!!
Date: 13 Apr 92 02:47:40 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

I will have to admit that after reading this article I had to stop for
a moment and contain my laughter.  I've been watching this ongoing
discussion in its current incarnation since it's inception, but now
I'll join the fray.  Note that I've reformated some of vbaker's
paragraphs because the ">"'s pushed some lines past 80 columns.

My credentials: I've have been a Mormon all my life, and a member of
the church for 15 years.  I was born in Salt Lake City.  I am a
returned missionary.  (From Alaska, no less, which has made this all
the more fun to watch. (fsrla: I loved the place.))  My family and my
fiance's have been Mormons for generations.  I can safely say I've
been exposed to Mormon and Utah culture, Mormon religious tradition
and LDS doctrine and theology.  (The last two are different things,
btw.)  However, I am not a spokesman for the Church, or anyone else
besides myself.

In article <1992Apr12.170710.1@hamp.hampshire.edu>
vbaker@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

(deleted quote from fsrla@acad3.alaska.edu and vbaker's reply)

>It has been within the past ten years that Mormons were forbidden to
>refer to other Christians as `followers of Satan,' and it is
>fundamental to Mormon beliefs that all other religions are wrong.  Ask
>_any_ Mormon if, for instance, the Methodist church is true.  He or
>she might hem and hah, but the final answer will be some brand of
>`no.'
>Let alone non-Christian religions.

I have _never_ heard a Mormon refer to someone as a "follower of
Satan" for their religion.  Not now, not recently, not 10 years ago,
not in journals of my family, not in old church publications, never.
Period.  I can imagine some rabid xenophobic Mormon doing so, but
against doctrine, belief, policy and culture (as well as courtesy).
BTW, I have been called a `follower of Satan' for my religion and
beliefs.

All statments of offical church doctrine, programs and policy are
publicly announced and are a matter of record.  I want to see the
reference of a church General Authority saying something like "As a
policy change, members of other relgions are too be no longer refered
to as `followers of Satan'".

You are almost right in saying the LDS position is that other
religions are wrong.  A more correct statement would be that other
religions are not completely true, meaning that some of their
doctrines are not correct and that some truths are not in their
doctrines.  This should be obvious by inspection, unless you want to
argue that everyone is right.  This does not mean that we believe that
all other religions are evil, or deceptive, or that their members are
`followers of Satan'.  This includes non-Christian religions.

(some more of fsrla deleted)

>Mormons believe that Jesus was in fact Christ and was himself punished for
>our sins so that we will not have to be.

That's true.  Do you have a problem with it?  Who do you think Jesus
Christ was and what his mission was?

>Mormons believe that God is incapable of forgiving those who are truly
>penitent without first strictly and sorely punishing someone who is
>innocent and completely uninvolved.

An interesting restatement of your previous sentence.  A better
restatement would be that justice (an attribute and law of God)
demands that a penalty be paid for every law broken.

>Mormons believe that God has a physical, biological, of
>flesh-and-blood but perfected body, is male, is married (possibly
>polygamous), is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful (a
>contradiction that no one has ever sufficiently explained to me), is
>omniscient and omnipotent, `loves the sinner and hates the sin,' and
>`was once as we are now.'

Physical. Okay.
Biological. You you mean "alive", okay.
Flesh-and-blood.  Almost, "flesh and bone" is correct, but is a very
minor theological quible that's unimportant here.
Perfected. Okay.
Male. Okay.
Married. Okay.
Possibly polygamous. Maybe, but not doctrine.
Perfectly just. Okay.
Perfectly merciful. Okay.

The combination of the two is the heart of the atonment (mission of
Christ, see above), which is the heart of the gospel, which is the
heart of the Church, and is worked over VERY thorough in Talmage's
_Jesus The Christ_.  BTW, if any mortal fully and truly understands
the concept on a rational level, I want to meet them.

Omniscient. Okay.
Omnipotent. Okay.
`loves the sinner and hates the sin'. True. Hardly unique to LDS doctine
`was once as we are now.' Ah, the second statement of the deification of man.
This IS pretty much unique to LDS doctine.  It is also very poorly understood.

>Mormons believe in a Heavenly Mother, God's wife, who is not worshipped or
>prayed to at any time or in any way, and who is in fact rarely even mentioned
>because something to the effect of `God loves Her so much, and is so careful
>of Her, that He doesn't want us to know about Her because we might take Her 
>name in vain.'  (This is a direct quote from a lesson taught to fifteen-and-
>sixteen-year-old young women.)

Existance of a Heavenly Mother. True.
I want the reference to the lesson book.  I've got access to them back
farther than you want to to think.  Tell me where, and I'll look it
up.  The idea stated IS part of "Mormon mythology" but is not
doctrine.  The best and most honest answer to the lack of information
about Her is simply, "We dont know."

>She is completely without power, position or authority.

I find that unlikly in the extreame.

>Again, it is a common but not universal Mormon belief that the Celestial
>Kingdom (heaven) and the Millinium (when Christ rules the earth) will be
>polygamous, and hence, God may have more than one wife.  Polygamy is not 
>currently practiced by Mormons and has not been for a hundred and fifty 
>years.

I'm glad you are drawing the distinction between "Mormon mythology"
and LDS doctrine.  There is a significant difference.  Even IF the
statements are true, your point is?

>Mormons believe in four eternal afterlife locations:  the Celestial Kingdom,
>the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and Outer Darkness.  The 
>Celestial Kingdom is the best; God lives there, and it is the dream of every
>Mormon to go there as well.  There are degrees of glory within this kingdom;
>the highest, reserved for couples married for eternity in the temple and 
>faithful to all of their covenants, grants Godhood of worlds to the couple 
>in question (or more likely, the male in question -- compare God and
>Heavenly Mother).  The Terrestrial Kingdom is next; people who are basically
>good and keep the law of Moses -- the ten commandments -- end up there.  It
>is assumed that all good Christian non-Mormons will go there, along with
>many unfaithful Mormons.  Next is the Telestial Kingdom, where go those who
>fail to keep the ten commandments -- the murderers, adulturers, false-witness-
>bearers, pit-for-neighbor-diggers, Lord's-name-in-vain-takers, and so on;
>roughly equivalent to mainstream Christian Hell.  Finally, Outer Darkness is
>the place where Satan and his minions live, into which only those people
>who have lived Celestially and turned therefrom to do evil are thrust.  Not
>a place that most people ever have to worry about.  Also, probably, Satanists
>go there, but I don't know if that's official policy or just a widespread
>opinion.

For the most part correct.

>Mormons believe in a very real and personal Satan with a number of minions
>equal to half of the number of people who ever have, are, and ever will live
>on the earth -- i.e. one third of God's spirit children.  Mormons believe that
>these devils are here on the earth, and that their goal is our condemnation.
>Mormons believe that people -- sorry, I mean men -- who hold the priesthood
>may protect against these devils, but in practice this only very rarely
>happens.

Also for the most part correct.  "Protection" is not barred from
non-priesthood holders.  "The prayer of the righteous availeth much."

>Mormons believe that sex is only to be practiced by righteously married (male-
>female) couples when there is at least a possibility of conception occuring.
>Hence, birth-control in any form, including the rythm method, is disallowed,
>as well as masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, homosexual sex, or anything else
>that doesn't involve the sperm being discharged into the vagina.  I don't 
>know whether sex during pregnancy is allowed or not; sex after menopause seems
>to be but I don't know the rationale for it.

Mormons believe in strict chastity.  That means no pre-marital or
extra-marital sex.  The homosexually issue is being "dead horse
beaten" in a more general context on another thread.  We belive that
that sex is good, that it was created, condoned and commanded by God.
It's purpose (in not particular order) is to bind together a man and
woman, to have children and for fun.

>Mormons believe that abortion is murder and that (with minimal exceptions)
>anyone participating in an abortion will go to the Telestial Kingdom with the
>rest of the murderers.

Untrue. I'll quote to the best of my memory.  If you want references,
I'll go dig them up. "Abortion should only be performed in cases of
incest, rape or when the health or safty of the mother in is
jeopardy."  Hardly a global ban. "As far as we know, abortion is
something that it is possible to repent of."  Since we believe that
murder is an unrepentable sin, abortion != murder.

>Mormons believe that people who do not recieve Mormonism in this life will
>be able to in the time between death and the final judgement, but that it is
>better to recieve it in this life.

True.

>Mormons believe that a person's physical sex has a great deal of bearing over
>his or her emotions, reasoning ability, career choices, potential authority
>within the church, worth, and so on -- for instance, that women may not hold
>the priesthood, should not provide financially for the family, and should be
>solely or near-solely responsible for the upbringing of children -- and that 
>modes of speech, gesture, and clothing are and should be specific to each sex
>-- for instance, that males should not wear `female' clothing, nor makeup, nor
>jewelry; however, women may wear `male' clothing, though not to church, and 
>go without makeup and jewelry.  (I know, I don't understand it either.)

Mix of truth and other here.  Sex and worth have are independent.
("The worth of a soul is great in the eyes of God."  I dont see a sex
link there.)  If you meant sex and worthyness, they are also
independent.  Men and woman have equal capacities to be rightous or
sinful.  The raising of children is a partnership job.  True, alot of
men are not living up to their responsibilites, but that it too true
in all faiths.  The thing about clothing can be read out of the Bible,
and as to jewelry, I forgot to wear my bracelet today, and soon I'll
be wearing a ring.

>You may be wondering why I stated these beliefs instead of beliefs more
>specifically about the Mormon gospel.  I wanted to include some of their more
>political and social beliefs, assuming that you have access to the Articles
>of Faith and so on for the strictly religious ones.

This has been fun so far.  I'm looking forward to the responces.

---
Mark Atwood                            : Sorry, no cute quote here.
matwood@peruvian.utah.edu              :
The University has enough problems without being blamed for me.



---
Mark Atwood                            : Sorry, no cute quote here.
matwood@peruvian.utah.edu              :
The University has enough problems without being blamed for me.