HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 01:56:47 GMT

In article <1i055cINNh36@hp-col.col.hp.com>
smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

>Well, I've said *more* than enough...if people want me out, I'll 
>hit the road.  

Bye bye.

>I've been thinking about it anyways, since I'm 

Actually, you haven't been thinking about it at all; you
only think you have.

>getting the impression the walls are so high between gays and 
>straights that any dialog (where openly different views are 
>shared) is pretty hopeless; judging by the reaction I've seen 
>myself and others get.   The things people have *assumed* 
>I think, based on other things I've said, really shocked me. 

You know, Walter, some of the people who regularly post here
are straight, and they don't run into any of what you've run
into.  The difference, reluctant as you may be to entertain
the notion, lies with your attitude.  You go away now,
there's a good boy, and you think long and hard about all
this, say for maybe ten years.  Try to meet and actually
hang out with lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.  Get to
know them as people.  Do some community work to lessen
homophobia in your workplace, in the society at large.  Get
some first-hand experience of our world.  Then maybe you
will be ready to *begin* to understand.  So far, you're just
another oppressor, and I suspect few here will be sorry to
see you go.

>Well, let's hear what people want; cast your votes.  If the
>"get outs" outnumber the "stays", or even if there is just 
>a lot of "get outs", I'm outta here.  (sound of applause 
>rises from the background)  Please keep the votes posted 
>under this subject heading, or under their own single heading, 
>so they are easy to find, and so those who just plain don't 
>want to be bothered with all this can use their kill file...

Don't tell us how to run our lives, Walter.  This newsgroup
is not for you.  It's time you ran along.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 31 Dec 92 22:11:28 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <C0530L.L7J@agora.rain.com> bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:
	>>>I'm sitting at my terminal debating on whether to post this or
	>>>abort.  I know I'm going to get flamed by morons who can't believe
	>>>that anybody would consider this to be a problem.
	>>>Fuck it.  I'm tired of remaining silent.
	>
	>>Wanna trade?
	>
	>You still don't get it, do you?  Your response is a prime example
	>of why we don't want to talk about it.

"We"?  Who are your friends?

Then don't talk about it.  When I read this, I thought "My God, self-
victimization has really reached its zenith."

	>We know that if we try to discuss 
	>our feelings somebody's going to respond with a flip remark or 
	>laugh at us for being self-conscious or accuse us of bragging.  
	>I can understand what women with very large breasts must have to 
	>endure.  They can never shake the feeling that men are only interested 
	>in them as an object of sexual gratification.  I can also understand 
	>how men with smaller penises may feel -- like they're going to be 
	>evaluated on the basis of their penis size rather than on their worth 
	>as a human being.  Well, I feel the same way!

Well, I never felt evaluated on the basis of my penis size.  Maybe it's
not small enough.  Or maybe my personhood isn't centered in my cock.

	>>How big does it have to be before you feel ashamed of it?
	>
	>I threw away my tape measure.  What difference does that make?
	>I wish I'd never posted that article now.  Every size queen on
	>the net has been pestering me for details.  None of these guys
	>ever bothered to reply to my posts before.  What kind of a message
	>do you think that conveys?  That I'm a piece of meat, that's what.

Listen pal: if you wag your meat around on an electronic forum, it's going
to get some attention.  So people are curious--if you didn't want the
questions, you'd have kept quiet about it.  Live and learn, eh?  I think
it's perfectly appropriate for someone to wonder just how big a cock has
to be before someone gets so overwrought about it.  Probably not as big
as they'd like to imagine.

	>>P.S.: You weren't at Rooster Rock, that's for sure.
	>No, and now I feel more self-conscious than ever.  I feel like if
	>I'm ever at a motss-con in a clothing-optional situation that
	>everybody's going to be staring at me, checking it out.  That 
	>makes me feel like a freak!  No thank you.

Horrors.  You know, you're as wrapped up in dick size as the so-called
size queens you're taking issue with.

Like I said before, the human mind can find anything a source of shame.
It has little to do with objective reality.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: The Melmon Method (was Dworkin)
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:00:24 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

*X*:

>embarrassing.  Again, this is all the Squirrel's fault.  I *told*
>him to use Johnny Cat.  But did he listen?  

J-o-n-n-y Cat.  If you're going to shit in it, learn to spell it.

In fact, I was in Yosemite attending the Bracebridge dinner (thank
you to Brad's parents).  So don't get your phallus in an uproar.
While at Yosemite, I read some very amusing hints on avoiding
confrontations with bears; I had briefly thought of posting them
here, and then decided against it.  Some people might have thought
that I was serious.

I saw no bears there, BTW.  A few twinks, and four squirrels: two
flat in the road and two frolicking.  Two coyotes, one raccoon, and
a storm of Steller's jays were the extent of the wildlife.

Yosemite valley in the winter makes squabbles on soc.motss, Mod Bob's
bubble-butt surfboys, and an overdue oil change for the car seem so
insignificant.

Peace to all in 1993.
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

"Sex is a filter, and it admits a certain vision."  - William S. Burroughs
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:03:05 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Dec22.172912.2724@tc.cornell.edu>,
shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) wrote:

> 
> And how do you think she arrived at her conclusions?  Andrea
> Dworkin writes that all heterosexual sex is rape...

> ...reading Dworkin could lead more men to the "Aha!" experience.

Pseudo-intellectoid crap.  

Sex is necessary for the continuation of the species. If all sex 
is rape - then rape is necessary for the continuation of the species.  
If the quack is to be taken at her word, it is only natural that 
women are to be raped, and men should think nothing of it.

Is this the "Aha!" experience pseudo-intellectoid feminists
want men to have?

*X*
(of course, feminism has *nothing* to do with men, so I suppose
the reaction of men is of no concern. but perhaps, some day,
all these barking bimbos will realize that if *everything* men
do is wrong, then *nothing* they do is wrong, and we can get 
back to a more relaxed interaction between the sexes.  until
such time, heterosexual men would be well advised to at least
consider the fringe benefits of homosexuality...)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: "cures" for homosexuality
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:49:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.170637.15042@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> 
 mudge@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (MUDGE BRIAN WAYNE) writes:
>  From THE GAY BOOK OF LISTS, 11 Alleged Cures for Homosexuality, 
>5.) The love of a good woman.

I dunno.  You really think this would cure me?

--                    __
Ellen Keyne Seebacher \/             elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 22 Dec 92 17:26:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec22.172603.21477
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1h7hkdINNeuu@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.144024.28676@tc.cornell.edu> 
>shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>> In article <1h6t87INNccf@mizar.usc.edu> 
>> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>> >There's no reason whatsoever 
>> >to listen to a single word Andrea Dworkin says.
>>
>> While I certainly disagree with Dworkin, that won't stop me
>> from disagreeing with you about her.  Her suggestion that
>> true consensuality can't exist between two people where
>> there is a gross power imbalance is a valid one. 
>
>If I thought that were her point, I would of course agree 
>with her.
>
>> She then
>> goes ahead and denies the adulthood of the less empowered
>> person, and that is her great failing.  Just because she's
>> wrong about a lot doesn't mean that she's wrong about
>> everything.
>
>Perhaps Dworkin isn't wrong about everything, but I see no
>reason why I, a gay man who has no sexual interest in
>women whatsoever, should be painted with her extremely
>broad brush.  All men's interest in women, according to 
>Dworkin, is gynocidal.  All men are potential rapists. 
>What finally convinced me that she's a complete crackpot,
>and one not worth taking seriously for even a second,
>is her claim, in _Intercourse_, that *every* act of penile-
>vaginal intercourse is actually rape.  That she steps up
>her language -- and really, how can anyone take seriously
>someone who claims that each specific act of heterosexual 
>intercourse is fully as horrific as the gas chambers at 
>Auschwitz?

I knew there was something about heterosexuality that gave me the
willies! Dworkin's put her finger right on it! Hitler! How fresh!
-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re:
Date: 1 Jan 1993 02:12:28 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> Now what reaction do you expect to get from us, Walter, to
> what amounts to massive rudeness on your part?

Like I said, there is a *large* gap...and obviously I have 
no clue on how to try and cross it. 

> Finally, let us suppose that some airborn 2x4 comes along
> and knocks a little sense into your skull at long last;
> where would we be then?  What benefit *to us* would there be
> from that?  

Real good attitude.  REAL good.

> For if there were none, then you can gaddamned
> well take your sorry fucking ass right out of here and right
> quick before the troops turn mean.  I believe it's well
> past the time when they should have done so.  

Even better...I just HATE to see negative stereotypes so boldly 
fulfilled.  If I'm insulting anyone, it is out of ignorance.  
But for people here, arrogance, bad manners, and filthy language 
almost seem a badge of honor.  And *you* have the GALL to accuse 
me?  

> As Bob Donahue
> quite calmly remarked, it's put-up or shut-up time, buddy.

What exactly do you want me to "put up"?  Nothing, from what I can 
see.  You mean either agree with you or shut up.  The longer 
I read this group, the more I understand the wall between gays 
and straights that you rail against so much.  Somebody doesn't 
take what you say at face value, without question, and you resort 
to cursing them and filthy language; and you wonder why people end
up with a bad attitude towards gays.  Maybe you need to get out 
a mirror and you'll see where the problem is coming from.  Maybe 
if people react negatively towards you it isn't because you are 
gay, it is because you are an arrogant, foul-mouthed person 
who shows little tolerance for those he asks tolerance of. 
But nah, that can't be it, can it???   Cast your vote yet? 

Count one vote (from me) for "get out".  I've had enough of 
listening to people whine for support and tolerance/acceptance, 
and then turn around and have no tolerance for others, and 
threaten, curse, etc them.  The whole thing is really pitiful. 

Walter
 
Followups to: /dev/null
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Capitalization (dubious MOTSS content)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 22:53:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec31.040815.8238@syacus.acus.oz.au>

Brent Davies writes:
>Think about this. What's the difference between these two sentences:
>
>"I'm from the city."
>"I'm from the City."
>
>In the second example, don't you immediately think of one and *only* one
>place that could possibly be being referred to?
>
>And at the risk of causing an international brawl, might I ask (out of
>curiosity) what that place is?

San Francisco, of course.

 
() Budget: A mathematical confirmation of your suspicions.
()      -- A.A. Latimer
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Roseanne and The "Faggot" Insult
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1992Dec16.155725.17407@tc.cornell.edu>
	<1992Dec16.195318.19119@exu.ericsson.se> <BzELs4.IF6@nic.umass.edu>
	<168C09F88.SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:07:10 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <168C09F88.SURGDM@mizzou1.missouri.edu> DLM writes:

   The great thing about the Tonight Show appearance is that the musical guest
   was kd lang! Roseanne and kd sat next to each other - and Roseanne put
   her arm around kd's shoulders.

Another interesting tidbit to this story:  kd lang was originally
scheduled to be on with Mel Gibson.

I think this provides a good point of perspective:  You can argue
about whether it was right or not for Roseanne to call someone a
faggot in private.  But it's all insignificant when it comes to the
*real* homophobes, like Gibson.

Roseanne is harmless, and has done a lot for the portrayal of gays on
television.
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:05:44 EST
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
 <92356.182129SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <18218@autodesk.COM>

In article <18218@autodesk.COM>, owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) says:
>In article <92356.182129SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA
>(Graydon) writes:
>> I suspect the thing that's going to get the gender neutral pronouns
>> in place for part of the population is that all the serious scholarly
>> english style guides are now gender neutral or getting there.  This
>> will get all the primary school teachers, who will get the kids who
>> end up literate.  (The kids who don't end up literate have a much
>> larger problem than their language use!)
>
>Language will reflect gender neutrality, when society is gender neutral.
>
>There will probably always be some gender identification in language
>since there are differences between the genders, and we will need some
>sort of construct to communicate those differences.
>
>It seems to me that the reason  that there are problems around the issue
>of gender identified pronouns is that our society makes value judgements
>based on those differences.
>
>For example Clinton pointed out that playing numbers games and setting
>quotas for cabinet appointments based on gender devalues the individuals
>who have been chosen so far, and relegates them to tokens in a numbers game.
>It also shows that those who are focusing on the tokenism of the past
>and extending it into the future by thinking in *quotas* are perpetuating
>the social construct that there are value differences based on gender.
>
>LUX ./. owen
>--
>D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen
>
>  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
>        Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "

I think there are two issues here; one is that there needs to be
a pronoun that means 'an instance of the folk', and maybe even a
different pronoun for 'an instance of all folk, even the ones
who aren't us'.

The other is about when gender is important.  So far as I am concerned,
gender is important if one is trying  to figure out if one can reproduce
with the person in question, or for purposes of evaluating their interest
as a sex partner.

This leads to the interesting idea that we could have pronouns that are
relative to the speaker - single words for 'someone I could have a kid
with', 'someone who inflames my lust', 'someone who would inflame my
lust if I didn't know they like to do things of a sexual nature the
thought of which makes me want to be clinging shivering to the topmost
branches of a large elm tree three and half kilometers down the road',
and so on.

Graydon
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 23 Dec 1992 16:48:06 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Dec23.225304.5907@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> 
psp@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (P.S. Powledge) writes:
> In article <1hadcfINN57a@mizar.usc.edu>
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >By starting points, what do you mean? [...] That rape-murders are bad?  
> >Sure, I go along with that too.  But I have a problem once she goes 
> >beyond that.
>
> I take her starting points to be questions like, "what are the cultural
> roots of sexual violence in our society?" Like you, I'm firmly opposed to 
> rape-murders (hey! call me a liberal!). But there are several ways to 
> analyze rape-murders. 

I was being facetious!  But yes, I do understand her to be 
starting from such questions.  In answering these questions,
though, Dworkin indulges in some sleights of hand.  She
uses the most horrifying examples of sexual violence in such
a way as to imply that they're typical.  Then she identifies
all men, gay and straight, with those men who rape, mutilate,
and kill women.  Then she argues that *all* penetrative sex
between a man and woman is sexual violence is rape-murder.
Anyway, Dworkin is far from the only person looking at these 
issues from a feminist perspective. 

[ ... ]
> While I don't subscribe to the concept of collective guilt, I do think it's
> ridiculous to believe that you can exist as a social and ethical being in
> a cultural vacuum.

I hope you don't think *I* believe that one can exist in a 
cultural vacuum.

> I was and am shaped by my culture's messages about gender,
> race, and sexual minorities, and it is a very valid exercise to think about
> how those messages play themselves out in the lives and acts of individuals.

Heavens, yes.

Arne
From: jefu@nmt.edu (Jeff Putnam)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Date: 21 Dec 92 13:56:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: nmt.1992Dec21.135655.13909
Organization: The Museum of Differential Geometry

In article <1992Dec20.231739.8064@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>How did you discover soc.motss? Did you find it at the same time you
>found Usenet, or later?

I found the usenet first.  My net.access was slow and difficult at the time,
but I do remember some of the discussion in net.singles, then suddenly
there was a net.motss.  

Oh, you said "_soc_.motss".  Well, suddenly, there was the Great Renaming
and net.motss had transmogrified into soc.motss.  


-- 
jefu <=> Jeff Putnam - New Mexico Tech <=> jefu@nmt.edu 
"Daffodils go Ping! and Oink! // They Really are alarming 
I'm scared of big geraniums // And I'm sure that Lilac's harming"
(Dr. Bertram X. Fegg)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rcrice@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (roger.w.crice)
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:17:07 GMT

In article <19DEC92.15444939@enh.nist.gov> aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>In a previous article, tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett) wrote:
>> 
>>And, if that ain't enough advertisment... rainbow coffee mugs are
>>pretty neat!
>
>It's a little too obscure for me at this point.  I've been looking for 
>something obvious, like one which says "Queer" or "Faggot."  Anyone have
>any suggestions?  One would think with all the witty t-shirts
>around, a coffee mug wouldn't be so difficult.

How about a mug that was probably inteneded for use by a
single straight female?  We have in our cupboard a nice pink
coffee mug that has the inscription "On a HUNK hunt!" on it.
When we trade our everyday mugs for the holiday ones, this
one stays out.

Just a thought,
Roger.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Subject: Re: Outed to your parents. - Advice.
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
	<1992Dec17.160821.17646@news.ysu.edu> <1992Dec18.083506.26926@reed.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:52:13 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Dec18.083506.26926@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

   Most importantly, tell him to do his best to make himself independent
   of his mother. Financial independence, emotional independence.

   It's tough to do, but it's necessary for sanity, particularly when Mom
   doesn't like that her son is queer.
		   __
Very good point.  Another point, relevant for some people, is "Move
out of the house".

Dealing with these issues while living with your parents is not a
healthy thing.  Parents exert an undue influence if the constact
spector of being thrown out of the house (or the monitoring of who may
visit you at the house) exists.
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss