HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.romania
Subject: The revival of the "Moldavian" language
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:52:07 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

In today's RFE/RL report we find:
)"DNIESTER REPUBLIC" TO REIMPOSE RUSSIAN SCRIPT ON "MOLDOVAN
)LANGUAGE." A draft "law on languages," currently before the
)"Dniester Republic Supreme Soviet," would reimpose the Russian
)alphabet for the "Moldovan language" (i.e.  Romanian) in schools
)there, Radio Rossii reported on 24 August.  Moldovan schools in
)that area switched to the Latin script following its
)reinstatement in Moldova in 1989, and have since resisted the
)"Dniester" authorities' orders to return the "Moldovan language"
)to the Russian alphabet.  The proposed measure would give the
)"Dniester" Russian authorities a pseudo-legal basis for enforcing
)compliance.  (Vladimir Socor, RFE/RL Inc.)

Well, those Transdniestr guys never looked like any nice guys to me,
rather old-timers who are fighting to preserve their power. OK,
Vinzyuk we're know you're sensitive about language laws, can we
hear you scream "fascism" once more? Or is it OK when Russians are
playing such games?

(Introduction notice from RFE/RL, included for copyright reasons.)
)The RFE/RL Daily Report is a digest of lastest developments
)in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. It is published
)Monday through Friday (except German holidays) by the
)RFE/RL Research Institute (a division of Radio Free Europe/
)Radio Liberty, Inc.). Copyright 1992 RFE/RL, Inc.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Democratic Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:11:56 GMT

boris@cashew.ctr.columbia.edu (Boris Varshavsky) writes:
: Recently somebody here (Mark Hubey?) mentioned 1809-1917 as a period
: of colonization of Finland by Russia. It provoced me to the question:
: 
: For more than a century it might be some Russian population in Finland
: (and even not in a one generation), as a result of metropolia's "activity".
: 
There were not. The predominant group were the army, the cossacks
and administration who represented StPb administration in Finland.

: Do you, gentlemen, have any information regarding those people after
: 1917?  It could be interesting to know...
: 
:  
1809-1917 Finland had a status of a Grand Duchy of Russia.
Finland's independent war was around 1917. The Russian army was 
dearmed, Finnish so called White Army took away the arms from
the russian troops. There were not any major battles between the
Russian army but between Finnis so called White Army and The Reds.
It was a "brother war". The russian administration returned
away and the army as I told. My grandmother for instance was at 
that time a servant in Russian officer's family. That family
just left the town for Russia. 
So in generally Russian administration returned back to Russia.
There were not many russian civilians in Finland. 
In stead after the Russian Revolution from Russian came  may
be 30 000 refugees , "white" russians who mostly continued
their way more to the west. During Russian era 1809-1917 the
largest groups which which came to Finland and stayed after
the Russian Revolution were the jews from Russia (few hundreds)
and tatars (c. 1000).
Finland has never had even furing Zharist time any large
russian minority. Today there are c. 7000 russian citizens 
in Finland and they are mostly ethnic Finns from Russia who
have now returned when it is possible.

What was the destiny of those Russian army members who returned 
around 1917 in Russia I have never heard anything. May be
they were involved into the war over there

Jarmo Ryyti
: 
: -- 
: ---------------------------------------------------------------
:  Boris Varshavsky	boris@ctr.columbia.edu	|  Let        |
:  Software Engineer	 Columbia University	|      it     |
:  voice: 212-854-8928	  fax: 212-316-9068     |         be! |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Lev Gumilev, was "democratic" Estonia
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:49:50 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <17ju0pINN139@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.211621.29618@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:

>>I can recommend only books by Lev Gumilev.

>For those who will follow the advice: if you forgot your high-school
>physics and math, belive me: when you see some natural-science-like
>statement it is either wrong or have nothing to do with the subject.
>Examples: basis of Gumilevs theory: energy conservation has nothing
>to do with the physics, maybe there is some UBSOLUTELY SEPARATE law
>of ethnic energy conservation, but it is not proven. Author just refers
>to low of energy conservation in physics, using it in absolutely wrong
>way. Terms like "alrebraic sum of vectors" also kind of strange.
>From my point of view Gumilev's theory can be boiled down to:
>"there is some force of unknown origin which governs ethnogenes and
>is not studied well."

>Also his books, however simple written they are, are hard to understand.
>I spendsome time trying figure out was Parphiane calling their country
>Iran or Turan. That was supposed to be explained on two pages. I gave up.
>There are couple of places like that.

>Yury

I am almost sure Yury watch too much Leningrad TV :)
where Lev Gumilev recently (2-3 years ago) read a course
of lections of history. He was 70+ this time, and what
he told was painful to hear: biological fields, cosmic
rays transforming one nation into other etc. Luckily,
he (almost) never wrote these theories down. In his books,
he is very empiric and (almost) never explains instances
of enthogenesis by unknown physic laws. Empirically,
his ethnogenesis theory is quite well explained; he
wrote down a lot of factical material (mostly
about Great Desert of Mongols) and make out a lot of
correllations between history of disparate regions
(which are quite well proven, in themselves).
He is very weak in physics, I have to admit; 
anyway, historical part of his works is scientifically
sound.

His books contain a lot of material and are well (up
to scientific standards) written. They are not simple 
written, though. I am sure that if you want to found
some great revelation in his books you'll fail.
Anyway, if you wish to read a book which contains
a lot of unknown material, reference and historical
considerations, that's one great place too find.

Basis of Gumilev theory is not some ethnic energy conservation
law (which appeared quite recently), but a lot of
data, which are very interesting.

Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Baltic boshevicks)
Organization: GTECH Corporation, West Greenwich RI
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:00:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.083308.24296@nntp.hut.fi> f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
>Why isn't there any concern about
>treatment of Russians in Tadzhikistan or Kazakhstan? Is it because 
>ethnic Russians are treated so much better in these countries? Or is it
>because the media never tell us how's life in Turkmenistan?
>

It is my personal opinion: I do not expect anything reasonable from Tadzikistn
and Turkmenistan. However, I do expect it from Baltic states.




-- 
Aleksey Y. Romanov

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed are entirely my own and do not
necessary reflect those of my employer or anyone else
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:45:01 GMT

in article <1992Sep1.105420.26385@nntp.hut.fi>, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) says:
[....]
> 
> The situation can be dangerous only if the Baltic states really start to deport
> people or if there's a coup in Russia.
> 
> Janne Kivela"

The situation is dangerous ALREADY.
Don't Baltic goverments realize that by discriminating minorities
they go in direction of the Yugoslavian variant?

Or do the do it intentionally, in order to distract attention from
their inability to solve the economic problems?

But the Russian goverment is unable to solve their economic problems either,
so they need a scapegoat, too. In fact, some Russians are just waiting for
a convinient case to start shooting.

Shit! I think, L.I.Breznev was, indeed, a great political figure!
Everything was so quite and peaceful in his times. And they even
had the "friendship of peoples"...

-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 29 Aug 1992 03:33:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.191145.3976@client72.comlab.ox.ac.uk> gecas@comlab.ox.ac.uk (Kastytis Gecas) writes:
>
>While reading this mess I was always wondering why there is such a strong
>concern about a democracy in Baltic countries among these ex-Soviet guys. 
>Read all the postings in t.p.s. posted in June-August and you'll find 
>almost no postings about a democracy in CIS or Russia. Subjects on Lithuania, 

The answer is simple, although not where you are looking for it. Just post
any example of non-democratic decision of Russian goverement, and most
of these "Russian shauvinists will agree." We are used to idea, that not
everything :) our goverment decides is so democratic, you are probably
not. Train youself, it helps. :)

Should we make a discussion of the x-Soviet type: "I think Soviet
troops should be removed from Baltics, and you?" "Me too", "Wot
i discussia, wot i scepilis'"


>the law of citizenship in what they call "democratic" Lithuania. Neither,
>what the law is in democratic (?) Russia itself, if any. 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can you give me example of problems with this? Somebody posted
Finland as example of country which accepts all etnic Finns to it.
I do not think Russia is different in this respect.

>In what follows I would like to return to the origin of the discussion--
>the issue of citizenship and, in particular, to a test
>of *official language* comprehension.

Did it ever occured to you that there can be more than one: ideology,
or point of view, or official language, or nation in the country?

>
>  First,  a political one. There may be a lot of languages used in a society
>but the official language is state's attribute (like flag or national anthem)
> and everybody must respect it. The examples might be  an alphabet, syntax,
>a correct writing, an official use of geographical names (the case in Lithuania),
>etc.
> Second, a social aspect. The language is intended for a communication. 

Don't you think that Russian is far better candidate in this respect,
at least.

> think the importance of fluent communication is understandable 
>to everybody if he or she wants to live in society and do his/her carrier. 
>Not to mention, opportunities to realize the other rights and to fulfil the duties.
>  
Yury
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Visa and border control
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:47:26 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:16:11 GMT
>From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <MUH%PHYSICS1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>

>my Finnish friend. His wife is in border control in Turku. He told
>me, that only way to stop illegal emigrees (mostly Vietnameese) from
>_living_ in Finland is at the border. Once they are in country it is
>almost impossible to expell them. It is just considered unhuman.

Oh, of course. Probably your friend just meant: "considered unhuman,
if they had not, of course, come from USSR".
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:33:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.181213.13855@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.163846.7128@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.161955.12605@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug25.145608.5546@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>>>BOOKS
>>>>-----
>>>>Pozner, Vladimir, _Eyewitness_ 1991
>>>>	Account of the coup from Pozner.  Has a good deal
>>>>	of background on the plotters and the political scene
>>>>	before the coup.
>>>Posner is a professional (and he is very good in this profession) lyer.
>>
>>How is he a liar?  I really am curious about this.
>>
>
>For years he was a political commentator of Moscow foreign bradcast providing
>foreign listeners with all sorts of lies about real situation in xUSSR.
>Since the perestroika time he became one of major soviet propagandist of
>soviet democracy, socialist values etc. I saw him on soviet TV. His a really
>talented man. He did not look as idiot either. So, it is evident:  he himself
>hardly believed in stuff he is talking about.  So, his profission was a lie
>propagation, so he is a professional lier.

This is interesting.  In _Eyewitness_ he comes across as very 
sincere in his dislike of the system.  He was very against
the coup and very against Gorby.  He makes scathing attacks on
just about everyone.  I believe that Yeltsin gets off pretty easy 
though.

I can't remember exactly, but he does talk about changing all his beliefs. 
So, maybe he's had a change of heart or maybe he is still a liar.
I guess a professional liar would easily know what opinions he
should spout based on the political circumstances and write his
books accordingly.

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 06:01:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.222828.8358@erg.sri.com>, vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
also understandably does not realize I am talking about the *American*
NAS, but also misunderstands me:
>>If we think a scientific professional organization should be deeply
>>concerned with morality, then I say - lets open up EVERY ONE of them
>>for inspection.
>
>Well, the idea of expelling Shafarevich seems outrageous to me. However,
your suggestion of doing a systematic witchhunt scares me to death.
I don't actually propose a systematic witch hunt. It was a hypothetical
suggestion meant to be provocative, but I don't condone totalitarianism.

Maybe I should just say that to me, the constant level of violent crime
against women in the world feels like a slow and silent Holocaust.

When I was a child I had to listen every night to the sounds of my father
beating up my mother and torturing her. She tried to leave many times,
but he hunted us down relentlessly and then would kidnap one of us
children and threaten to hurt us if she didn't return.

What could she do? Back then it wasn't even a crime, the police told
her it was a matter for civil court.

What does this have to do with Russian antisemitism? I think it
has everything to do with all forms of abuse against everyone. To me
they are all the same on some level. One group of people decides that
a less powerful group is made of less-than-human-beings, and gives
themselves permission to treat them as such.

It was very good for me personally to see the statue of Dzerzhinsky
be toppled from the front of Lubianka. So one of the bigger forms
of abuse in the world was officially dissolved through the actions
and words of a lot of good people.

I want Russia to heal, I want Jews to heal, and I want myself to
heal also. But how can we do it, really, unless we do it together?

Just from known statistics, it is very probable that the great NAS
harbors not only private antisemites, but private child abusers,
private racists, private abusers of assorted varieties, maybe even
Stalinists in some ideological sense.

So there big stand against Shafarevich doesn't impress me as much
as it might if I had not seen for myself the uglier sides of
life in America.

It's a complicated question. I am trying to express emotions here.
I don't really have a specific plan for them that is "correct."

Nor do I have one for Russia. But I can quote Pasternak:

"I v pol'noch smolknut tvar i plot'
zaslyshav slux vecenni,
shto tol'ko-tol'ko raspogod'
smert' mozhno budet poborot'
usiliem voskresenia."

(And no religious intentions here, concept alone, please.)

-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re:  A Strategic Retreat
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:49:39 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

|Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:05:14 GMT
|From: Michael Zeleny <zeleny@HUSC9.HARVARD.EDU>


|As I am about to depart for Paris, until September 17th, I shall be unable
|to participate in further consequences of my numerous provocations.  Kindly
|address all messages intended for my attention to the email address below.

Nichego ponyat' nel'zya, erunda kakaya-to.

|Je suis pr\^et \`a partir pour Paris jusqu'a 17 septembre; par
|cons\'equent, il me sera impossible de tenir mes propos provocants.
|Veuillez envoyer vos messages concernant mes defauts personnels \`a ma
|adresse not\'ee ci-dessous.

A tut voobshche nichego ne razberesh'.

|Ya uezzhaiu v Parizh do 17 sentiabria; proshu posylat' vse stat'i
|kasaiuschiesya menia na moj adres ukazannyj nizhe.

A, vot teper' nakonets ponyatno; pozvol'te, a gde zhe naschet
"provokatsij"?

|cordially,
|mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
|872 Massachusetts Avenue, Apt. 707
|Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139
|(617) 661-8151
|"Un de mes plus grands plaisirs est de jurer Dieu quand je bande."


Da uzh; nu ladno, pridetsya poslat', nichego ne podelaesh'.

Posylayu.

Idi...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:23:56 GMT

muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: 
: Do not try to convince people that Soviet and Russian is same. It is not.
: I doubt very very much that amount of "Soviets" among different nations
: were so much different. After some initial kicking, which happens to
: Russia in 1917 and to Estonia in 1940, locals can screw up their country
: without any intervention. Did Estonia made a huge progress during past
: couple years. It shold be much easier for small country to get out of
: economic trouble, espessially considering that "Soviets", both local
: and All-Uninon really had less time to screw it. 
: 
: 
1939 the standard of living of Estonia and Finland were about the same,
after 50 years of occupation (mostly russians) every one can see by the
own eyes (and statistics) how big is the gap now between Finland
(non occupied by SU) and Estonia (occupied by Su).

: 
: We are not talking about moving of citizens, too, you missed something,
: we are talking about expelling them, aren't we?
: 
It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
to live in a colony. Let us taken an example: 1960's when Algeria got
freedom, all the Frenchmen were expelled from Algeria, millions of people,
born in Algeria. Their property were confiscated and given for the locals.
There was no international voice about that and France took all coming
Frenchpeople from Algeria back. So had Russia and Ukraina to do for the
all returning russians and ukrainians from Estonia. It is normal.
Okay, Estonia is alone when Algeria had international support. Estonia
needs similar support now.

: 
: When I read passages like this I reaaly becoming Russian nationalist
: (which, me beeing Ukrainian, is not the case in fundamental state).
: When you call some nation occupants, colonists and so on, you really 
: risking that they really will became ones. What do you think will 
: happen then?
: 
I do not think it is not wrong beeing a russian/ukrainian nationalist at all.
It is correct. The best way to show up nationalistic feelings is to
arrange homes for the home coming russians/ukrainians from Estonia. So did
France, a much smaller country, for the home coming Frenchpeople 
from Algeria 1960's.
Jarmo
: 
: They are guests no more. Why don't you clean this land from your
: presense in favor of Indians? You have home, go their, who invited you?
: 
: Yury

Yury, compare Algeria. Compare Libya, the Italians had to come back to
Italy from LIbya when Libya became independent. It is normal international
praxis. Ok. Arab countries got support from everywhere. Estonia should
get similar support.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: boris@cashew.ctr.columbia.edu (Boris Varshavsky)
Subject: Democratic Estonia
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:36:21 GMT
X-Posted-From: cashew.ctr.columbia.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Recently somebody here (Mark Hubey?) mentioned 1809-1917 as a period
of colonization of Finland by Russia. It provoced me to the question:

For more than a century it might be some Russian population in Finland
(and even not in a one generation), as a result of metropolia's "activity".

Do you, gentlemen, have any information regarding those people after
1917?  It could be interesting to know...

 

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
 Boris Varshavsky	boris@ctr.columbia.edu	|  Let        |
 Software Engineer	 Columbia University	|      it     |
 voice: 212-854-8928	  fax: 212-316-9068     |         be! |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Lev Gumilev, was "democratic" Estonia
Date: 28 Aug 1992 19:02:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug28.014950.15175@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>
>I am almost sure Yury watch too much Leningrad TV :)
>where Lev Gumilev recently (2-3 years ago) read a course

Sorry, you missed this one. I watched none. In fact I read
his book 

9. Gumilev, L. N. (Lev Nikolaevich), 1912-
     Geografiia etnosa v istoricheskii period / L.N. Gumilev.  Leningrad :
   Nauka, 1990.

(is not it great to have library database on-line :) ).

>he (almost) never wrote these theories down. In his books,
>he is very empiric and (almost) never explains instances

I now that he has many more books, some of them are probably
historical, not etnographical. The book I red is written badly.
Fact are _not_ clearly stated. It is certanly not historical book
and is not claimed to be. It is claimed to be etnographical book,
one of couple, founding new approach in etnology. I can believe
that other books are good, but this one vivdly reminded me 
"pis'ma is naroda" addressed to physical institutes back in Moscow,
which I used to answer being grad student there.

>of enthogenesis by unknown physic laws. Empirically,
>his ethnogenesis theory is quite well explained; he

I really would like to understand what is the main idea, can you
send your boil-down? No sarcasm intended, but I reaaly can not
find anything, except there is something, which fuels etnogenesis.
He calles this something passionarnost', but it is just alias
for something.

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet