From: mayne@creat.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Is belief in Jesus Necessary for a moral society?
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:32:30 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Dept. of Computer Science

In article <3APR199221043285@elroy.uh.edu> cosc143u@elroy.uh.edu (91F9774) writes:
>I have seen people state, "So... I cease to exist when I die.  So what?"
>This leads me to the following two cases:
>
>No punishment after death: If death ends it, then I can do what I want until
>I'm caught.  Maybe I don't care if I only get two years of looting, killing,
>and raping because at least it'll be more fun that grinding under the heel
>of the powers that be for my entire life.  Better to burn out than to fade away.

Has this in fact happened in more cases than theists gone bad?

>Punishment after death by a/the "god/s": Sure, I could kill him and rape her 
>now but I'll burn in hellfire for eternity.  Guess I'll keep working in the
>system so I'll get the big reward after death.

But if being a decent responsible person depends on this belief and some
people find the theology they have been taught unsupportable this should
should lead to the abandonment of principles. Theists are building an
ethical house on sand.

>My honest opinion is that we need to lay the moral systems into our young before
>they begin thinking and then when they are ready for rational thought then we
>give them both barrels.  How do other (non "God" (big G)) religions around the
>world pass on moral values to their kids?

On the odd chance that this is a sincere question, I'll point out:

(1) The existence of punishment and reward, or more properly pleasant or
unpleasant consequences of our deeds, if not in this life then after death,
is not strictly dependent on the existence of God. Buddhists traditionally
believe in rebirth, but no God in charge of the wheel of existence. This
is just one example. 

(2) Judaism traditionally has no specific doctrine of life after death,
but Jews don't seem to have any unusual difficulties instilling a sense
of ethics in their children.

Taken together these examples show the independence of reward/punishment,
belief in God, and ethical values.

Now let me ask a rhetorical question. Suppose that your religion has no
specific prohibition against destroying a work of art or some other great
cultural treasure unless this violates the property rights of others or
civil law. Suppose further that you find such a treasure, say an
ancient manuscript (but not a religious text), the only copy in existence.
Under the law it is your property. No law, secular or religious, says that
you can't destroy it, but for some reason you can't convert it into any
material advantage. Perhaps you are fleeing an oppressor and will have to
leave all your pocessions, including this manuscript. Exactly this kind of
thing happened to many Jews in Europe as recently as the 1930s and 1940s.
(At the hands of a group of people many of whom professed belief in God
and an afterlife, and who were willing to sacrifice themselves for perceived
duty, by the way.) Would you destroy such a manuscript for some trivial
momentary advantage, like using it to help start a fire just for pleasure?
If not, why not? You can't justify your decision on any expected reward or
punishment. Attempts to wiggle out by coming up with some advantage to
yourself for passing up a moment's warmth will not be considered a valid
answer.

>It seems to me that many children are not given any moral foundation these days.

I agree. However it does not seem that children of atheists who have
thought deeply about it (as opposed to atheists by default, i.e. those
who have no opinion, which some insist on calling atheists) are given
any less moral foundation than the average church goer. Whatever makes
the difference, it doesn't seem to be being taught belief in God.

I'd say the boys who stand by their beliefs and get excluded from or
kicked out of the Boy Scouts, or denied their Eagle award, and stood
up to ridicule because they won't falsely profess belief in God show
quite a strong moral foundation.

Bill Mayne