From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Lifdot & L'chaper (was: Re: Paradise
Date: 27 Sep 1992 11:16:08 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bill Carlson writes:

> RAL> There are no Jewish views requiring man-god sacrifice.  There are
> RAL> plenty of Christian views which suggest this, which is fine with
> RAL> me, as long as you call it Christianity.

>     There are plenty of Rabbinic quotes that state that HaShem shall
>     send Messiah to give His life as an attonement for the sins of
>     the entire house of Israel - and that those who reject it, will
>     suffer for them themselves.

We learn that the death of a righteous man is "mechaper" - in the
sense that when seeing how his life went, people will come to 
repent and seek atonement.

>  ...  There are plenty of Rabbinic quotes
>     that state that Messiah will have the Divine Nature of HaShem.
>     Do you know anyone, EVER, besides HaShem who is given the Name
>     of HaShem? 

*I* have it.  "Refoel" ==> "G-d has healed."

Others include Daniel, Nathaniel, Samuel, Elchanan, Eliezer, Michael... 


>  DO YOU agree that Messiah is given the Name of HaShem?
>     He IS, several times in Scripture, and not a FORM of the Name of
>     HaShem, the Tetragrammaton!  Wake up!  No mere "only-created"
>     being can ever have the Name of HaShem!

"Yehuda," from which "Jew" is derived, has the tetragrammaton in it.

Other names based on the tetragrammaton include
  Jonathan, John, Joshua, Basya, Zachary, Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah, etc...


> MIDRASH MISHLE[10:21];Rab Huna counted amongst the seven Names of
> Messiah also:  HaShem Zidkenu, [Referring to Jer.23:6].
> [Midrash Echa (1:51):]...What is the Name of King Messiah?    To this
> answered Rabbi Abba bar Kahana: HaShem is His Name, for it is written:
> 'This is the Name whereby He shall be called: HaShem Zidkenu'.

Why is this so unusual?  King Zedekiah had that name.

(Tzidkiyahu = "G-d is righteous")


>     Messiah IS a manifestation of El*him, not the totality, but a
>     manifestation of the Davar/Word/Memra of El*him!

These are your words, not taken from those passages you quoted.

> Who was it that ascended into heaven, and came down again? Who gathered
> the wind in His fists? Who bound the waters in a garment?Who set up all
> the ends of the earth?  What is His Name,  and what is His  Son's Name,
> if thou knowest it?  [Proverbs 30:4/Lesser's translation].

We learn His son's name in Exodus 4:22.  His first-born, nonetheless.

>     His mother was a "virgin", as even writings of the sames attest
>     to, as does the LXX which is written by 70 Rabbi's, and was the
>     official diaspora version for several hundred years, using the
>     specific Greek word for virgin; and acknowledging that a almah was
>     to likewise have been virgin according to Torah:
>     Therefore will the Lord  Himself  give  you  a  sign; behold
>     this almah/young woman,  [in  LXX trans.  done  by  70 Rabbi's
>     it  is  the  Greek  word  for  virgin],  shall  conceive,  and
>     bare a Son and she shall call His Name Immanuel,(G-d with us).

The Seputagint is not an authoritative translation.  It has
many intentional mistranslations, some of which are recorded
in the Talmud, Megillah 9.  The Targum Onkelos is much
more authoritative.  Besides, Jesus wasn't even named Immanuel,
but that's beside the point.


>     -Isaiah 7:14 Lesser's.
>     'Behold a virgin shall conceive', There are some who say
>     that  this  was  made a sign, because a virgin 'fuit non
>     apta generationi. -Jarchi.
>     R. Huni in the name of R. Ide and R. Joshua said,  that
>     this man is the King Messiah of Whom it is said, Psalms
>     2:7, 'This day have I begotten Thee.'
>     -Talmud Bab.
>     Jarchi refutes the  above by observing that Hezekiah was
>     nine years  old when his father Ahaz began to reign, and
>     he must be at this time, at least thirteen years of age.
>     In  like  manner Kimchi, and  Ibn Ezra object to it; and
>     besides his mother could not be called a virgin.   -Gill

Who is Gill, who is Jarchi, and where is this Talmudic passage?


> And various times the Rabbi's translate Zech. with the SAME IDEA of
> PIERCED:
> Rabbi Moshe el-Sheikh/[AlSheikh], a leading Rabbi of Safed...
> "I will do yet a third thing,  and that is, that  'they shall look unto
> Me,'  for they  shall lift up their eyes unto Me in perfect repentance,
> when they see Him Whom they pierced, that is Messiah,the Son of Joseph;
>     You will continue to be told the same, and we will continue to
>     believe the same.  The only thing that will change, is if you
>     choose to believe - where now you choose to reject.

It's not the "same" idea of "pierced" at all.  

  Zecharia 12:10            Psalm 22:17
 _ __  ___ ____           _ __  \ | ___ 
.|   | , /  . |           |   | |\|  . |
 |   | |      |               | | \ ___|
        T    T               .   -:  T
               
 "thrust through"          "like a lion"


Completely different words and different meanings.  Zech.
12:10 refers to how the messiah ben Yosef will be killed 
in battle against the enemies of the Jews.


Rob

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Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
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