From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu)
Subject: Re: "Caucasian" vs "White" (was Re: Caucasians don't understand)
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 13:15:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.195127.24454@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@manute.sps.mot.com writes:
>In article <4896@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira) writes:
>>In article <MDAY.92Aug17105442@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu> mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:
>>> [Ron writes:]
>>>>My grounds for "correct" usage are simple. Using the word "caucasian" as 
>>>>a synonym for white is AMBIGUOUS. Why use an ambiguous term?
>>>>Maybe you like ambiguous terms? Maybe you like to cloud simple issues?
>>>>
>
  Perhaps this is WHY Ron is the ONLY Desi that is posting here.  This lack
  of respect for how Desi people want to be identified can explain why
  we hardly see any Desi people posting except on articles that are
  cross-posted to alt.....indian-american.

  I don't think Ron is a one-man crusade.  I think Ron is pointing out
  that Caucasians include Whites and people on the Indian Subcontinent,
  as well as Arabs, Semetics, Persians, Afghans, etc.  That there is
  a whole land mass stretching from the Iberian Peninsula to Western
  Tibet to the Bengali coast that contains Caucasians, as well as parts
  of Northern Africa.  To use Caucasians as a generic term when you really
  mean White Americans is like using Dogs when you mean Chihuahua.  Try
  this: Dogs are small and weigh under 3 lbs.  Dogs can fit inside a hat,
  and are very nervous.  Dogs frequently shiver and have pointy ears that
  stick up.  I have a feeling that your average Lab would be quite insulted
  at this!

>
>How are we excluding people of South Asian descent by using the terms
>"Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms?  If I say CM or CF, that means nobody
>of South Asian descent is welcome here?

  No, but it sure makes them feel that they're not important enough
  to be distinguished from generic Caucasians.  Let's pretend that Desi
  Americans make up a term (popcorn) and (caramel).  Popcorn includes
  White Americans and "Oriental" Americans (i.e. those whose skin color
  is included in popcorn color.  Caramel includes Desi Americans, Mexicans,
  and Puerto Ricans.  Say a gang of KKK members beat up a Desi.  Then
  a bunch of them say, "Those popcorn people are real racist, prejudiced
  thugs."  Or let's say, some Desis are discussing how popcorn guys have
  big beer bellys, belch and stink, and go around thinking they're superior
  because their skin is light like popcorn.  How would you as a "Oriental"
  American feel being lumped into this group of racist, beer-guzzling,
  belchers?  This is what Ron is complaining about.  When we go around
  saying Caucasians just don't understand.  We're automatically including
  Desis, and all the other people living in that huge land mass.  We
  really mean White Americans just don't understand.
>

[  Jim says that White==Caucasian is general north american usage]

[  Stuff about being upset at the use of "oriental" in this newsgroup s.c.a.a.)
>
>used *here* (scaa) rather than in the outside world.  Because *in this
>newsgroup*, the term "Asian" has greater usage and consensus than in the
>outside world.

  In this group: s.c.asian.american, we should use terms that Asian
  Americans agree on and prefer.  If Ron as an Asian American prefers
  that we do not use Caucasian as synonymous with White, then we should
  take it into more consideration thatn GENERAL North American usage.

  You are not counting Ron and his people in as part of the consensus.
  You're including as consensus "Oriental" Americans and White Americans.

>  [using White may piss off people] 
>
>"white" because saying "white" over and over sounds repetitive and even
>sometimes impolite.  Caucasian seems like a slightly more generic and neutral-
>connonation term.  I sure don't do it to piss you or other IAs off.
>
>OK, but then realize that using the term "White" exclusively may also piss
>off some other newcomer then.  So what are we supposed to do?  What if *I*

  Look this newsgroup is for Asian Americans.  I would much rather piss off
  White people than other Asian Americans.  I'm sorry, but why are we so
  fricken concerned about what White people think about us, that we would
  rather piss off someone else.  Anything as long as we don't get those
  all-mighty White people upset.  Yesssirrr   Masssaa  !!!

  I checked in soc.culture.african.america they use White and not Caucasian.
  We really got a lot to learn from African Americans.  They've tried that
  assimilation and accomodation route and they failed miserably.  They've
  learned that the only way to survive is to stand on your own two feet
  and support your own community.  We're still trying to be the lucky
  few who can hope for the crumbs as tokens than in truly creating a
  just society.
>
>Ron, yours are the only posts stating with so much emphasis and VOLUME that
>the use of the terms "Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms is WRONG, WRONG,
>WRONG.  You're the only one.  Sorry, but it takes more than one to sway me.

  Okay, I'll stand with Ron on this one.  Ron doesn't call us Orientals.
  Why should we include him into our Caucasian discussions when we clearly
  don't mean IndianAmerican?  Besides in the alt....indian-american group
  they use Whites.  Look, if Whites want to come up with a better term for
  themselves, let them worry about it.  I don't use Anglos because JJ
  and others object to it (he's a Celt).  So there!
>
>>>>No, I haven't been reading scaa very long. I'm just finding out
>>>>that people don't like to be called orientals, which I will stop doing
>>>>from now on. 
>
>Until you started complaining about it, the consensus usage IN THIS NEWSGROUP
>was to use "Caucasian" as a synonym for "white," hence terms like CM, CF, etc.
>There have been hundreds upon hundreds of posts where people have used terms
>like AF/CM, AM/CF, BM/CF, etc etc.  There's a long history in this newsgroup
>of using those terms (CM and CF) synonymously with white men and women.  So
>it's awkward as hell now to ask everybody to stop using those terms we're all
>so familar with just to suit you.  I think you're being overbearing here.

  Well hell, then we're so familiar with Oriental.  Why should be change
  to Asian?  Why don't we just rename this group soc.culture.oriental.american
  and get rid of those pesky Desis?  Geez...
>
>No, your input is fine.  But I don't see why *you alone* should have veto
>power over the use of "Caucasian" and "White" as synonyms.
>
>You're just one person.  What if you're wrong?  Then we went through all this
>hassle just to accomodate a person who turned out to be wrong in the end?

  He's not wrong.  Whites should not monopolize the term Caucasian.
  It's like they think they're the most important people in the world.
  What about all the people in the Middle East and Subcontinent and
  Northern Africa???
>
>Now, the use of the term "Oriental" IN THIS NEWSGROUP as a synonym for
>"Asian" is not quite comparable because there's a greater consensus here
>(although certainly not 100%) for the usage of the term "Asian."  In other
>words, it's not just one person who'll get miffed if you start using
>"Oriental" instead of "Asian" here.  Try it if you don't believe me; go count
>the number of responses to the last guy who started the ORIENTALS???? thread.
>
>But if it *were* just one person, why should the rest of the group stop using
>terms they've used all along just to suit that one person?

  There are 800,000 Desis out there.  Mostly they haven't posted to
  this group.  They've tried to start a group soc.culture.indian.america
  which failed because people thought it was for Native Americans.
  This group should not be monopolized by "Orientals" and their sympathetic
  Whites.  This group should (IMHO) share the Desi viewpoint also.
  Otherwise why call it Asian American???
>
>I really hate having to give up the terms CM and CF, which I've used ten
>million times in the past to zero objection from anybody.  But we'll see
>how this works out.  If I still see you as the lone objector later (i.e.
>you've built no consensus), I will not give up those terms.  If there's a
>consensus against it, I'll oblige.  But I don't see why I should accept
>ONE person's views as THE WAY.

  I've used it a million times too, but I'm giving it up.  When Ron pointed
  it out to me, I could see how INSENSTIVE we have all been.  We expect
  others to stop using Oriental because we don't like its negative connotations.
  Yet we cannot respect that we are misusing a term and mis-representing
  more than 1 billion people just because we really mean White Americans.
  Do you seriously think White Americans represent all the people in that
  huge land mass???
>
>Jim


Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american