HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ianr@ee.mu.OZ.AU (Ian Rowlands)
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Organization: Electronic and Electrical Engineering - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 12:54:06 GMT

In article <6549@otc.otca.oz> brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones) writes:
>You're all forgetting one VERY important thing in this debate.  Reality.

	But Canberra's a fantasy land, not reality! Whatever happens there
isn't the real world.

>All your arguments for and against GST may come to naught, because even if
>Dr. J is elected, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that he will control the Senate,
>and the Democrats have indicated that they will not support a GST, al least
>not one that taxes "the necessities of life" (whatever they are).

	It's not only unlikely, it won't happen. Especially if there is a
double dissolution instead of a half-senate election. When there is a
half-senate election, the Democrats and other parties will struggle to get
anybody elected. Luckily for them, Our Former Beloved Leader (sorry, I read
the Herald-Sun) never called them.

>So, if legistlation to abolish wholesale sales tax and replace it with a GST
>cannot be passed by the Senate, the entire Fightback! package falls apart at
>the seams because the entire premise of Fightback! is that all the other so
>called "goodies" are funded, mostly, by the 15% GST.
>
>In which case, we need to ask ourselves:  what policies do the Liberals have
>besides Fightback!?  They've put all their eggs in one basket - we really need
>to consider whether we may be faced with a policy vacuum only one month in
>to a Hewson Government.

	He seems to have one more policy that the current government...

>Politics is all about compromise, pragmatism, and hastening slowly.  It is
>also more than economics and extremely narrow definitions of social
>responsibilities.  It worries me that Dr. J seems to understand none of these
>(or maybe its just his posturing).
>
>IMHO Hewson has adopted a very risky and ultimately politically naive set of
>policies.  He knows that there is very little chance of a GST becoming law,
>and yet he has not offered us any inkling of what might happen when Fightback!
>stalls on the starter's grid.

	If it stalls in the Senate (which I don't think will happen if it
comes to the crunch), there is a way around it - another election straight
after it is rejected by the senate. Then you push it through a joint sitting of
parliament. The pressure on the people in the senate will be so great if they
force another election (along with the waste of money) will make one of the
parties back down. If Hewson wins and backs down on the GST, he might as well
move out of the Lodge the next day.

					Ian


Ian Rowlands, former student in  | Uni  : ianr@ee.mu.oz.au 
Dept. of Electrical Engineering, | Home : ianr@gpark.apana.org.au
 (including Computer Science)    | 
University of Melbourne          |  [This space for rent]
From: Gary.Woodman@anu.edu.au (Gary Woodman)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Australia's "foreign" debt...
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:29:53 GMT
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.5.23

In article <1992Oct14.070515.1923@cs.su.oz.au> mrj@cs.su.oz.au (Mark James) writes:

>Does anyone have workable ideas to encourage savings?  The GST has
>the potential, but inequitable compensation rules out Hewson's model
>(in my eyes at least).  Will superannuation do the job?

You're a funny guy, Mark. What do you think are the chances that the 
projected massive super funds will be frittered away by the same or similar 
dickheads that stuffed us up good and proper in the 80s, or stolen by legal 
or moral criminals?

I think they're pretty good. I'm confident that when I retire, my super will 
be gone altogether, or worth about the price of a loaf of bread and a bottle 
of milk. I'll be depending on a vege garden, not hollow promises and 
worthless scraps of paper.

--
Gary.Woodman@anu.edu.au         This post made from 100% recycled electrons.
From: cm@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Charles Meo)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Date: 8 Oct 92 10:33:04 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Solbourne Computer Australia

In <1992Oct8.044523.705@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>terms to the other parties. I admit that I'm just guessing, but
>I think it likely that up to 30% of their revenue is wasted on servicing the
>debt and on paying those lease agreements - it not just
>the size of the debt itself! 

I get a bit fed up when people who are 'just guessing' start mouthing off about
government debt.

One fact you might consider is that 65% of the external debt is in PRIVATE
hands, and has nothing to do with the government. This is the fruit of another
'binge'--the stupid takeovers of the eighties, and now we see bankruptcies 
where they should be, with the scumbags who did all that stuff. 

In addition, MUCH (not all) of government debt is backed by assets whose 
lifetime exceeds that of the debt. For instance, consider the water supply
and sewerage facilities of a medium small town in the country. You might 
be looking at $3m for a water treament plant and $5m for Stage 3 sewerage
treatment (1985) so you BORROW because a community of a few thousand 
doesn't have that kind of scratch lying around in cash. In fact, you`d be
an idiot if you did. This will typically be a 15-20 mortgage over the rates
of the community--but unless the town dries up and blows away this debt is
solid as a rock AND the plant has a life of 40-50 years. In fact, people
who suggest all government debt should be liquidated are stupid, because
you are asking the present generation to pay for facilities which will
extend far into the future. 

What is lacking (from both sides) in the debt discussion is some analysis
of how much of the government debt is 'OK' like capital assets above, and
how much is money down the toilet e.g. lent to sharp operators by
Tricontinental.

But for heaven's sake, to suggest that capital creation by government
should be paid for entirely in cash is RIDICULOUS! Government finance
is not like household finance, and the sooner people get this
through their thick skulls the better off we will all be. In fact, it should
be engraved on a six inch nail and banged in--that might do it.

Let's get a bit sophisticated here...:-)

Chuck
-- 
Chuck Meo
Solbourne Computer Australia
cm@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
'SYS5R4: I am Your Density'
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c9036991@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (THE TIME HAS COME, THE WALRUS SAID, TO TALK OF MANY THINGS. OF SAILING BOATS AND SEALING WAX, OF CABBAGES AND KINGS)
Subject: GST and other stuff...
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:21:34 GMT


	Now maybe because I have only just started to read this group 
I might hae missed out on a lot of stuff. But what I would like to know 
I where I can get a copy the the 'Fightback Package' that the liberals 
have produced. I know that it exists, and its about the size of a book.

	I'd also like to get my hands on a copy of the present governments
reply to this package.

	There was also, in Tuesdays Sydney Morning Herald, an article
denouncing the GST. It was claimed that the information the article was
based on was obtained through the Freedom of Infromation Act. Does anyone
know what the article might have been or where I can get a copy?

	The reason I'm asking is because at the moment I'm rather 
disallusioned with both the major political parties, and with examples
of Briton, Canada and New Zealand having GST's that DONT work, I want
to make sure as hell I know what the liberal party's version of the GST
will do to the country, and what its' implications on me are.


						Mathew.
				[ stupid .sig following]
-- 



	Wayne's World, Wayne's World, Party Time, Excellent!
        Party on Dudes.


		C9036991@wombat.newcastle.edu.au
		
			      OR

		C9036991@cc.newcastle.edu.au
                (Not any more .. out of time)
	
		Just call me Mathew or BG
	
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: ajw@squid.mel.dit.CSIRO.AU (Andrew Waugh)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: CSIRO, Division of Information Technology, Melbourne
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 03:19:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.014415.27294@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1beovqINNiep@werple.apana.org.au> speednut@werple.apana.org.au
>(Mark Jose) writes:
>>Original Message From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
>>>What difference do you think a Liberal government would have made to
>>>Tricontinental's actions?
>>Who knows, maybe they would have placed stricter controls on them.
>With the emphasis on "maybe".  LIke the new ANZ board members might have
>exercised stricter control than the ones who have resigned.

Surely you mean 'Westpac'?

>Another point:  Privatising Tricontinental would have removed the risk the
>Government incurred but such privatisation by state Governments, even the
>N.S.W. Government, is a fairly recent phenomenon and would probably not have
>been done soon enough by a Liberal Victorian Government.

The State Bank wanted desperately to privatise (sell off) Trico. In fact it
was a very reluctant owner in the first place. My memory is vague on the 
details now, but Trico was originally a joint venture. The other partner
pulled out and the State Bank had to take over (or lose its money). The
State Bank then tried for several years to sell off Trico, but the deals
kept falling through. It appears this was mainly due to the State Bank wanting
too much money for Trico. The deals would have resulted in a small loss to
the Bank. It always seemed better to keep Trico and try to work out a better
deal.

This, of course, was certainly a large and important danger sign. However, it
was not clear that the State Bank ever realised this, let alone bothered to
inform the Government about what was happening.

>>Perhaps a little attention to the auditing would not have gone astray.

Trico was being audited. Indeed, it should have been audited by at least two
separate groups of auditors: internal, external. External auditors are paid
very large sums of money to identify exactly the sort of problems Trico was
having. And to identify them early so that the situation can be rectified
before too much money is lost. The failure of the auditors (both at Trico
and at other Australian collapses) is interesting; particularly as potential
purchasers seemed to have no problem in very quickly identifying the problems.

andrew waugh
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:39:06 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.021737.20279@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.002656.27681@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris
O'Neill) writes:
>>By the way the State government's debt relative to State GDP is less than it
>>was during some of Bolte's years.  Short memories...
>And who said that he was a great premier in the first place. Certainly not
>I. Could it be that the debt was too high in both cases?

Maybe, but there wasn't such a big deal about the debt then as there is now.

>Furthermore, the debt was reduced. That's what I am saying now, what Kirner
>refused to do,

What do you think all the sell-offs are for?  Of course, the sensible time for
debt reduction was during the boom years, not now during recession. 
Unfortunately we live in a society that believes you should spend and borrow up
big during boom times and then in recessions should cut back wherever possible
and throw vast numbers of people out of work.

> and what Kennet promises. He now has his four years
>to start delivering.

Chris O'Neill
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: Private censorship, here now
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:07:49 GMT

In article <farrell.718443403@coral>, farrell@coral.cs.jcu.edu.au (John Farrell) writes:
> In <1992Oct6.225721.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi) writes:
>>situation as herself. the reply was " only an ex Graylands nutcase in West-
>>Lederville..." ( for non Perth readers, Graylands mental hospital is the main
> 
>>I have seen all the corespondence in this matter, and the signed statment
>>of Jenny Roper, and can post copies if any one wants them.
> 
>   But what's the big deal?
> 
Would YOU consider it a big deal if it was your medical record being brordcst
to all and sundrary? And when you made a fuss about it no one cared?
How would you react if you said to me that a DSS officer was revealing in
inteviews with others that you were an ex-psychiatric patent, and got a barage
of "...so what..."?

BTW, this happened 2 days after he recieved a letter from the commenwealth
Privacy commisioner telling him how the staff involved had had special training
for the TFN data...

~Paul
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Okay! Victorians didnt vote stupid again!(is that good?)
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 04:31:59 GMT

In article <9228615.22349@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU
(Wayne Schuller) writes:
>
>
>Ah yes, i realise that, but surely the vic election is even just a remote
>indication of what will happen in a federal election?.....
>I believe the tide is turning......

You might be able to change the political party at the head of Government, but
you're not likely to change the bureaucrats in charge of Federal economic
management.

Chris O'Neill
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander)
Subject: Re: Okay! Victorians didnt vote stupid again!(is that good?)
Keywords: man woman jeff joan love hate war peace and the gst!
Organization: Monash University, Australia.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 12:50:20 GMT

In article <9228121.9078@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller) writes:

>All you liberal haters can crap on all you like about how the gst and the 
>liberals are going to stuff us up badly, but lets just wait and see, and 
>finish this discussion in 4 years.. And we will see just how well the liberals
>have done.... Thats is of course unless they close down Melb Uni and then I
>wont have an account to read the news anywhere!.  

Wayne, you appear to be confusing state with federal politics.  The Libs
got elected in Victoria.  GST is a federal issue.

Dey


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:44:15 GMT

In article <1beovqINNiep@werple.apana.org.au> speednut@werple.apana.org.au
(Mark Jose) writes:
>Original Message From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
>Original Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
> 
>>:-)  What difference do you think a Liberal government would have made to
>>Tricontinental's actions?
>>
>Who knows, maybe they would have placed stricter controls on them.

With the emphasis on "maybe".  LIke the new ANZ board members might have
exercised stricter control than the ones who have resigned.

Another point:  Privatising Tricontinental would have removed the risk the
Government incurred but such privatisation by state Governments, even the
N.S.W. Government, is a fairly recent phenomenon and would probably not have
been done soon enough by a Liberal Victorian Government.

> Perhaps
>a little attention to the auditing would not have gone astray.

Auditors.  Ha.  Just tell the auditors "Alan Bond is a very reputable
businessman.  His credit rating is excellent."

>>By the way the State government's debt relative to State GDP is less
>than it
>>was during some of Bolte's years.  Short memories...
> 
>Maybe so, I will not argue your statement, but let me add that we had a better
>chance of paying off the debt than we do now.

Why?  Do you think this recession will last forever?

Chris O'Neill
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: c9112151@cc.newcastle.edu.au (Paul A Watters)
Subject: Australian Republican Movement
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 06:37:50 GMT

*** Attention ***

If there are any members of the Australian Republican Movement
reading this, or if anyone is interested in finding out about
the aims and objectives of the movement, could they please
mail me at the following address:

c9112151@frey.newcastle.edu.au

Thank you.

Paul Watters., "Libertas", Australian Republican Movement
		Universoty of Newcastle
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:25:37 GMT

In article <chris.719035479@suite.sw.oz.au>, chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) writes:
...
> He will threaten the Democrats with this option.
> He still has to convince the people that they should vote for him a second
> time, after they've had a taste of the medicine. Ideology will take a back
> seat then, if not now. Such is reality as I see it.

H will have to temper this with the smaller quota in the senate, hence better
chances for the independents and small parties.

~Paul
From: taso@munnari.OZ.AU (Taso Hatzi)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: implication of GST
Date: 13 Oct 1992 21:49:27 +1000
Organization: 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Brendan Jones (brendan@otc.otca.oz) wrote:
: 
: IMHO Hewson has adopted a very risky and ultimately politically naive set of
: policies.  He knows that there is very little chance of a GST becoming law,
:
I would argue that the Opposition has made a monumentally stupid mistake
in publishing any policy document whatsoever. Well nigh any reform will
have its critics, so a package of reforms is bound to generate a lot
of invective which the media will latch on to and amplify.

There's a saying in politics that Oppositions don't win elections,
Governments lose them. This was demonstrated once again in the recent
Victorian election in which the Libs+Nats successfully withstood all Labour
and media attempts to extract policy statements from them and picked up
a huge majority.
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams)
Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:08:26 GMT

speednut@werple.apana.org.au (Mark Jose) writes:

>Original Message From: miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams)
>Original Subject: Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?
> 
>>I really don't know why people think Australia was hit so hard by the
>>recession. Australia's economic figures have been consistantly better
>>than most of the rest of the OECD.
> 
>Try telling that to the 1,000,000 registered unemployed. I am sure they
>are real pleased to know that "economically" they are well off.

This is a nice emotive political statement, but it contributes very
little to the debate. Unemployment is only one of a number of indicators
of the economic health of a country. Australia's unemployment has peaked
at a rather high 11%, but a number of other countries are headed for the
same heights and worse. A sampling of recent economic indicators for the
"big 13" OECD countries.

Unemployment:
-------------

Japan 		2.2% and rising
Switzerland	3.1%
Holland		3.8% and rising
Sweden		5.8% and rising
USA		7.6%
Belgium		8.3%
UK		9.9%
France		10.2%
Italy		10.6%
Germany		10-11% (est)
Australia	10.9% and falling
Canada		11.6%
Spain		14.1% 

These figures have to be taken with a spoonful of salt, since some
countries (like Australia) count their long-term unemployed, while
others (like the USA and Germany) don't. In some countries, the spouse
of somebody who is employed can claim the dole while in some they can't, 
etc.

GDP
--- (most recent quarter, at annual rate)

Italy		 2.4%
Spain		 2.4%
Australia	 2.0%
USA		 1.4%
Canada		 0.7%
Japan		 0.7%
Sweden		 0.6%
France		 0.4%
Switzerland	-0.3%
UK		-0.7%
Germany		-1.1% (western Germany only)
Holland		-1.7%
Belgium		(?)

CPI  (latest 12 months)
-----------------------

Australia	1.2%
Canada		1.4%
Japan		1.7%
Sweden		2.0%
Belgium		2.3%
France		2.7%
USA		3.2%
Holland		3.5%
Germany		3.6% (western Germany only)
Switzerland	3.6%
UK		3.6%
Italy		5.2%
Spain		5.7%


Industrial Production (latest 12 months)
-------------------------------------

Holland		+1.2%
USA		+0.6%
Australia	+0.2%
Belgium		-0.2%
France		-0.5%
Switzerland	-0.8%
Spain		-1.3%
UK		-1.4%
Canada 		-1.8%
Germany		-2.5%
Italy		-3.3%
Japan		-7.6%
Sweden		-8.4%

Next week: Taxation as a proportion of GDP.

From these figures, you can see that, although things aren't the best in
Oz, in most countries they are worse. What's more, in the
non-English-speaking countries, the worst is yet to come.

cheers,



--
Mark Williams         The University of Queensland       miw@cc.uq.edu.au
+61 7 36 54012   (w)  Prentice Centre
+61 7 36 54477  (fax) Qld 4072  Australia
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.  -- Seneca
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller)
Subject: Okay! Victorians didnt vote stupid again!(is that good?)
Keywords: man woman jeff joan love hate war peace and the gst!
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 11:27:11 GMT

Well, it looks like labor is out. I am not saying that it is particularly good
that liberal are in, but i am very happy there is a change after ten years, of
vict going down and down.
All you liberal haters can crap on all you like about how the gst and the 
liberals are going to stuff us up badly, but lets just wait and see, and 
finish this discussion in 4 years.. And we will see just how well the liberals
have done.... Thats is of course unless they close down Melb Uni and then I
wont have an account to read the news anywhere!.  

So lets stop the 'liberals are going to stuff us up badly' comments, i dont 
care how smart you or your comments are, i just want to sit back and watch
how well they do. I know how well labor did in its office (and its not alot to
brag about..)
Yours in love.

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Newsgroups: aus.politics