From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Caucasians don't understand
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:37:46 GMT

In article <25713@dog.ee.lbl.gov> yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.185102.5036@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>>I'm sure there are bound to be horror stories with the number of 
>>>Americans travelling and working in all parts of the world. I've

>>Which you will trivialize later.

>>>also looked down the barrel of a gun in Pakistan and got tear-gassed
>>>in South Korea, but I blame my own curiosity for those incidents.
>>
>>Hmm. That happened to me here in the US. Not that my experience is relevant,
>>after all, I *AM* white.

>Looks like you're trivializing. Why are you implying that I disagree 
>with you simply because you're white??   You are exhibiting the same 
>persecution complex that you are accusing others of.

??

>>Uh, 2 were children of the "flower children" as you put it. Another one's 
>>father has set foot in the US twice in the last 25 years. So, if you'd've
>>put money on your bet, you would have lost.

>Well, it's hard to argue with phanthoms. Why are you come out with
>details in bits and dribbles?

Because you keep bringing up possible (yet irrelevant) objections to "show" that
their experiences conform to what you say about their privileges.

>  Let us know, did they naturalize ?

Nope.

>Did they speak the language of that country at home ?  Did the 

Uh, as most of sub-Sahara Africa has either English or French as a national
language, yes. 

>children see themselves as  hyphenated citizens of that country?  

Skin color, remember?

>Where was their income come, and how much was it compared to the
>locals ?  

Uh, what is the income of Asians in the US viz ather racial groups. I thought
most people agreed that having higher incomes doesn't preclude being a 
victim of racism; obviously, this doesn't apply to whites.

>>Again, this is rather the "Discrimination against ME is by definition worse than
>>discrimination against YOU" school of understanding.

>You're the one saying this, not I or any other Asian American.
>My point is that the mindset of the expatriate is different from 
>that of the immigrant or minority American.  Seeing your house
>on fire is diffeerent from seeeing your hotel room on fire, and
>is separate from the size of the fire.

Actually, they lived in houses.

>>It may surprise you to know that there are white citizens of Japan, and they
>>get quite a bit MORE than AA here, in most cases. There is no legal recourse
>>for discrimination in Japan.

>After telling me how bad it is do so, you proceed to use the same
>"Discrimination against ME is by definition worse than discrimination 
>against YOU" charge (Fester trademark), but against Japan, of course
>it's okay, right? 

Excuse me? I HAVE pointed out that there is discrimination against whites 
in other countries, that whites DO endure it, etc. How do you get from that
to "but against Japan, of course it's okay, right?"

>I always find it hypocritical when white Americans talk about Japanese 
>racism, as if they are free of racism.  When whites talk about American 

Hmm. Should WE find it hypocritical when Asians talk about being discriminated
against, as is they never discriminated against anyone?

>racism, it's always in the context of a unfortunate legacy from the 
>past that will eventually go away, but when they talk about Japanese 
>(Korean, Chinese, etc.) racism, it's seen as immutable.  American has 

Hmm, again, I don't see that I've ever said that. No doubt, you can point ot
one of my posts and show me where I did say that.

>been a nation for 200 years, but how long have we had these "legal 
>recourses" for racial discrimination, 25 years ?  and more importantly,
>how effective have they been (did you follow the Vincent Chin case)? 

Uh, yes.

>Who's to say where Japan would be in the future ? Compare the two most 
>persecuted groups in the two nations, Koreans in Japan to Blacks in 
>America, and I won't make any bets on which group would first achieve 
>equality.

And how long have Koreans been in Japan?

>>And those that do tend to pass immigration laws rather quickly. (Those that 
>>don't already have strict laws)

>You seem to have ignored the fact that the U.S. is a nation of 
>immigrants. I'm sure you know that Germany, a white European nation,

Uh, no, in fact I haven't.

>has very strict immmigration laws... and what about the UK, they
>are still hemming and hawing on granting "residency" to their 
>Chinese subjects from Hong Kong. 

Which is rather the point, isn't it? It *IS* better here.

>>>idea that it's common sense to expect "rednecks"  when travelling
>>>through many parts of the U.S., and an undertone from some white 

>>My wife has been treated rather well by "red-necks".

>Maybe because she was travelling with a white man :-) 

She was travelling alone. (Is this going to be where you jump in and say"Come 
on, don't let it out in dribs and drabs again"?). And BTW, why would that 
make any difference to a racist?

>>Right. After all, Italy is not at this time considering passing anti-Asian
>>immigration laws, and most likely you care very little about anti-Turkish
>>laws, assuming you are aware of them.

>Thanks for reveiling your condescension.  How do you know that I 
>don't care about anti-Turkish laws in Italy ? I'm Chinese, ergo, my 
>horizons can only extend to Asia, while yours, being white, span 
>the globe?  Especially after I've stated that I've lived in Italy,
>such a comment seems rather.....racist. (This annoying tendency to 
>pigeonhole Asians is something I will address on scaa in the future...)

No, I pigeon-holed YOU. YOU were mentioning how well YOU were treated in Italy.
You were saying that the situation there is not bad. This is true IF you ignore
their (and France's, and much of Europe's) increasing antipathy to Moslem
immigrants. As you mentioned that the stiuation was not at all bad there, I 
assumed you didn't know about those laws.

>Now, let me ask you, how much do YOU care about Italian "anti-Turkish"
>immigration laws ? Did you just read about it in Time or the Christian 
>Science Monitor like I did, or does your background give you some 

You mean you have a good Turkish friend and you just NOW read about this? The
situation has been around for about 2 -3 decades. It has been on the front
page (from time to time) of every paper I've ever read.

>special interest and insight ?  As for me, it just so happens that 

"Special insight"? No. I seem to hvae been aware of the problem a BIT longer
than you, though.

>I have a good Turkish friend with whom we talk about Turkey's growing 
>contacts in the former Soviet Asian republics, the Armenian/Azerbaijan 
>conflict, and now, the plight of the Bosnians.  I may not react as
>vicerally as Ozman to this topics, but to infer that I "most likely
>care very little" about such things is awfully patronizing and,
>shall I say it, a tad racist?

Right. First accuse someone of racism. All arguments will follow logically from
that.

Strange, then, that you didn't mention that in your discription of Italy. As
for how I know about it, anyone who has followed the European situation for
the last couple of decades is aware of the growing friction among Europeans
and Turks; in the late 60s, many of the nations were very smug about the
US's racial problems. In the early 70s, many of thsoe same nations were
experiencing anti-Turkish riots.

Mike
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