HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:52:58 GMT

whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl) writes:

[...]
> If as you claim it is that clearcut, then why
>does UW continue its funding of BSA?
[...]

From the Chicago Tribune, Midwest Edition, Sept. 30, 1990, section 1, p. 16:

"The Genoa-Kinstong United Way announced Saturday it has reversed an
earlier 'premature' decision and will fund the local Boy Scouts, evne
though athiests charge religious discrimination.

Though refusing to address the issue directly, Jim Ferris, chairman of
the local board, hinted that the United Way had come under pressure
from pro-Scout donors at a time it could least afford such controversy
-- the start of the charity's annual champaign.  ..."

I think the reason that this did not come up before is that before
1990 many people (even many scoutmasters) did not understand BSA
policy.

Now we are in a situation where the UW would rather violate its
principles than offend. And the BSA keeps asking for money that it is
not entitled to. Perhaps the BSA should replace "honest" with
"expedient".

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
From: steph@cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 23:39:00 GMT

In <1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129) writes:

>[...]
>>1.  Does BSA policy require you to swear to God (or a god)?  Or, is this 
>>an infered interpretation?
>[...]

>==================================
>Chicago Tribune (Sept 25, 1990) says:

>"'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and
>  my country,' goes the Boy Scout oath. The Boy Scout law
>  also invokes the deity. A Scout, it says, is 'reverent'
>  toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and he
>  respects the beliefs of others.'

"...also invokes the deity"?????  God is not "invoked" in the scout oath.
It is not "By God" or "On God's Life" or any such variant.  What is invoked
is the scouts Honor.  What the scout promises is his Duty to God, Duty to
Country, Duty to Others, and Duty to Self.

Likewise, the scout law simply says "A scout is reverent."  An agnostic,
a pantheist, or a humanist can certainly be "faithful in his religious
duties and respect the belief of others."  Even an atheist can be reverent.



>  'If a boy does not subscribe to these precepts, he cannot
>   be a Scout," a spokeswoman at the Boy Scouts' national
>   headquarters in Dallas explained."


>- Carl
>--
>Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Gigabit Study Group 

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
From: berger@atropa (Mike Berger)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:50:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: ux1.1992Apr11.195019.9221
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:
>When will people stop taking the exact wording the the BSA handbook as writing
>in stone?  The handbook is distibuted to a population with a majority of 
>Christians.  The word God is therefore used in a Christian sense.  Again, I
>am a recent Eagle scout and I was not asked to prefess a belief in God.  When
>the scout oath was written, it was for a primarily Christain population.  So,
>when you see the word God in scouting it is appropriate to replace it with 
>what is appropriate to your beliefs.  If you belive God = {} then, that 
>particular part of the scout oath is meaningless.

>When I attended our council JLT camp, there was a non-denomination chruch 
>service which, for lack of anything else to do, I attended.  The speaker
>said something which I think sums up a good compromise for this whole arguement

>"It isn't what you believe; it is that you know what you believe, and that you
>live your life accordingly".
*----
Thanks for clearing that up!  Uhh, just one thing I don't understand.
If that's all true, then WHY do the Boy Scouts reject kids who profess
to be atheists even to the extent that they have to fight in court?
--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA & United Way funding (was Boy, wouldn't THAT be a shame?)
Date: 15 Apr 92 00:17:28 GMT
Organization: IBM Research
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

In article <82311@rphroy.ph.gmr.com>, rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar) writes:

|> 
|> Personal comment -  Although I have doubts about BSA's policies
|> regarding gender and sexual orientation, I do believe that
|> religious belief is a significant part of scouting.  If BSA had
|> to choose, I would prefer that BSA gave up all U.W. funding rather
|> than drop the religious requirements.
|> 

I disagree that religious belief is a significant part of scouting.
My son's scout pack included Jews, Catholics, Protestants,
and Indians (didn't ask about religion, but could be Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Muslim).  

I can't think of any religious message which could be taught
in scouting which would be both consistent with all of the above
religions and inconsistent with atheism.  

My son can't recall any religious instruction during scout
meetings.

I don't think it would make an atom of difference to the
actual content of scouting programs in our town if
the religious requirement were dropped.  Why do you
think it would?
-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Proposal? (girls, atheists, sexuality)
Date: 7 Apr 92 11:54:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: bronze.1992Apr7.065507.9474
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Apr7.001923.15700@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rcashman@cs.ulowell.edu (The Jester) writes:

[Most of Mr. Cashman's self-righteous raving about the one true way
deleted.]
>
>I went to a gay bar with a homosexual friend of mine just recently, to make
>sure that I had my facts straight.  I was not-so-politely asked to leave.  I
>asked why, and the gentleman at the door responded that I was not welcome
>because I was "obviously" straight.  So much for the self-righteous attitude
>of the detractors of the BSA: its a two way street, folks.

Your homophobia may have been showing.  I'm straight but I've taken
dates to gay bars to dance several times.  I never had a problem and
always had fun.

>As a previous poster said, nobody is born with the God-given right to belong
>to every organization in the world.  Nobody said life is fair, and, to quote
>that previous poster, "we are not here to make it so."  As I have said time
>and time again, if you cannot or will not conform to the ideals of an organ-
>ization, that organization has the right to deny you membership.  End of
>lecture.

You sound like somebody trying to keep blacks out of a country club.
The only reason gays (and in my case, atheists) seek entry to the
Scouts is that they feel they have something to contribute to the
community.  We all love the idea of the Scouts, we just want to let
more people in it without having to lie.  We can and do enter the
Scouts whenever we want, by telling a white lie or two.  The point is
that we prefer to be honest.

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mpb@troy.uucp (27331-bunz)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 13:33:47 GMT

In article <2044@compnect.UUCP>, daveh@compnect.UUCP (Dave Hultberg) writes:
> In article <1992Apr09.132548.7059@digibd.com>, merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes:
> 
> >   The BSA did not honestly comply with the United Way
> > requirements to not religiously discriminate when they (the BSA)
> > accepted funding.  Do you support the BSA taking money under false
> > pretenses?  Is it OK for the BSA to lie to get funded?  Don't you
> > find the BSA's actions reprehensible & hypocritical?
> 
> I fail to see where BSA lied to the United Way.  I have seen Chief Scout
> Executive Ben Love's video tape address to the United Way.  BSA has
> never lied about or denied the requirement for duty to ones god(s).  It
> is clearly stated on both boy and adult application forms.  I would be
> interested in documentary proof that BSA ever told United Way that they
> would admit atheists.  If United Way doesn't like BSA's clearly stated
> membership requirements, requirements that BSA has repeatedly defended
> in court, then they are free to withhold funding from BSA.  However,
> they would be wise to consider the repercusions of doing so.  Should
> this become United policy, quite a few contributors, myself included,
> would withhold donations from United Way.  
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Hultberg Snail Mail: 1407 Concord Rd., Mechanicsburg, PA 17055-1955
> Packet: KA3UZR @ K3WKK.PA.USA.NA Fidonet: 1:270/101.28 Usenet: daveh@ka3uzr.UUCP
> daveh@compnect.UUCP or Dave_Hultberg@p28.f101.n270.z1.fidonet.org 

Well, it looks like the United Way in San Fransisco has given their
local Councils the boot.  Is it time to put some pressure on them by
withholding donations to other United Way Chapters, and giving directly
to your local council, to see if they can change the San Fransisco Chapter's
mind?

This on top of the other United Way scandals of late has me giving my
contribution some thought.

Marc
From: mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: What is Spanish for "Boy Scout"?
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:39:47 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Dept. of Computer Science

There must be scouts in many Spanish speaking countries.
How is "boy scout", the scout oath, law, etc. given in Spanish?
I assume that it is probably fairly consistent from one country
to the next, though there are some linguistic differences in
the Spanish speaking world.

Does the BSA have any bilingual materials, or troops which use
primarily Spanish or some other language (e.g. in south Florida
or the southwest)?

While on the subject it might be interesting if scouters from
around the world would post these things in their own languages,
possibly with explanations on the nuances of translation.

Bill Mayne
From: ba06103@bingsunp (ba06103)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Request for information
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:32:37 GMT
Distribution: rec.scouting
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton


  To all Bayern Staff past and present,
     This year I was offered a job at camp Bayern. Unfortunaltly I couldn't
attend because the program was running for to short a time ( 3 weeks! ) I was
wondering if anybody could tell me if 93 will be so short a season. I would
love to work there oney year.

              -Abel Sussman
From: kdc5072@cs.rit.edu (Kevin D Colagio)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 12 Apr 92 16:09:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.3107
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY


  johnh@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (John Holeman) writes:
  
  >When will people stop taking the exact wording the the BSA handbook as writing
  >in stone?

My thoughts are this.  If someone is going to tell me exactly what the book
says, then they are using it to tell me what THEY think it says (as it reads).
At that point, I have posted definitions to define the wor that are relevant
(sp?).  If the words are wrong (in the book), maybe someone will tell National
and have the correct words put in place.

After all, if you are going to follow the words to the letter, they should be
the right words.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-  Kevin Colagio...student at large -  I am looking   - In Gods we trust,      =
=               aka                 =  for something  - All others pay cash.   -
-         KDC5072@cs.rit.edu        -   to put here.  -      -Vladimir Taltos  =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:923 alt.atheism:8449
From: ckennedy@sleepy.helios.nd.edu (chris kennedy)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement (and UW)
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:04:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Apr15.190413.5726
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame

In article <1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>hayes@ddemo3.aero.org (Brian Hayes 74-35 x65129) writes:
>
>[...]
>>1.  Does BSA policy require you to swear to God (or a god)?  Or, is this 
>>an infered interpretation?
>[...]
>
>==================================
>Chicago Tribune (Sept 25, 1990) says:
>
>"'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and
>  my country,' goes the Boy Scout oath. The Boy Scout law
>  also invokes the deity. A Scout, it says, is 'reverent'
>  toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and he
>  respects the beliefs of others.'
>
>  'If a boy does not subscribe to these precepts, he cannot
>   be a Scout," a spokeswoman at the Boy Scouts' national
>   headquarters in Dallas explained."
>
The Boy Scouts also tend to want their boys to (gasp) say the pledge of 
allegiance.  The pledge of allegiance says (gaps), one nation under 
		>>>>>>>>>>>>>GOD <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
, indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.

I think that the main issue in the Chicago case was that the Father refused 
to sign the standard form because it said that he agreed with the scout oath
and law.  He said that he would not sign it because he did not agree with it 
and was told that if he did not agree with the oath and law his son could not 
join.  If a father said that he would not sign because he did not think that 
his son should be Trustworthy, or loyal, or helpful, or friendly ( the one I 
have problems with), or that they don't feel that they have a duty to their 
contry they don't have to sign, and they can't join, no difference.

As far as the United Way goes, I think all of this is rather interesting
because I believe that the United Way was formed because all of these
organizations like the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Red Cross, Orphanges,
Homes for Unwed mothers, Soup Kitchens, etc.  were all spending a lot of time 
and effort trying to hold their own fund drives so is was assumed that the
organizations should get together in their fund raising, and that all funds 
would be put into a pot to be split as the organization saw fit.  I may be
wrong, but I was always under the impression that the Boy Scouts did not go 
with hat in hand to the UW, but that they were either one of the prime movers
or were recruited by the prime movers very early on because it was felt that 
they were needed to give legitamacy to the organization.

chris
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: berger@atropa (Mike Berger)
Subject: Re: Homosexuals in BSA
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:26:12 GMT

uab1018@dircon.co.uk (Frank Leonhardt) writes:

>I would hope that a scoutmaster holding views which may not 
>be approved of by the parents of the scouts would refrain from 
>communicating such views to the scouts; let alone encouraging 
>them to follow such a lifestyle. Surely this principle
>allows people to be scoutmasters who hold any views at all
>on the basis that the scouts only receive the prescribed wisdom. 
>(Parents who do not approve of the prescribed wisdom should 
>keep their children away).
*----
Somebody e-mailed me last week indicating that he took offense
when I noted the similarities between the Boy Scouts of America
and the Hitler Youth.  But whenever I see comments like this,
how only "approved" viewpoints should be taught, the similarities
are greater and greater.

Who is going to dictate the "prescribed wisdom", and what makes
them the authority?
--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
From: ss@panix.com (Steve Steinberg)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA Webelos camping
Date: 8 Apr 92 05:29:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <870@ast.dsd.northrop.com> salerno@ast.dsd.northrop.com (Peter Salerno) writes:

>   I have been a Webelos leader for a few years and each time I took the
>den camping (about twice a year), I would request a 1 to 1 ratio but
>would accept 5 to 2.  Now at the last rountable we were informed that
>without 1-1 Webelos camping would not be allowed.
>   - What is the National view of boy - parental unit ratios ?
>   - What does your district / council follow ?
>   - Will we eliminate those boys who need the experience the most ?

Queens Council (maybe all of Greater NY Councils) is running an 
experiment.  Tiger Cubs must have a 1-1 ratio, Cub Scouts must have a
5-1 ratio.  My guess is that it's due to a severe leader shortage
in socio-economically disadvantaged packs.

>      pete salerno
>      eagle 


Yours in Scouting,

Steve Steinberg
Assistant Cubmaster, Pack 139
Howard Beach, NY
Tomahawk District, Queens Council
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Call the Stone Mountain BBS, The world's first BBS dedicated to
Scouting.  (718) 641-1351, HST DS, 300->14,400 bps V.32, V.42
-- 
=====================================================================
=== Steve Steinberg   ==  ss@panix.com  == {cmcl2,apple}!panix!ss ===

              (The space below intentionally left blank)           
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:749 alt.atheism:7919 soc.motss:19255
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Letter from BSA National Office about discrimination
From: mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 92 21:50:04 PDT
Organization: The Batchelor Pad

kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
> I don't have a copy of my postcard, but the gist was:
> ====================
> Mr. Love:
> 
> I support the BSA's right to discriminate on the basis of religion.
> It should not, however, ask the United Way to violate the United Way
> charter by asking for money for programs that discriminate.
> 
> ==================
> 
> Judging from Mr. Love's response, I guess this position is just to
> complicated for Mr. Love to understand. For the record, I *DO NOT*
> support the BSA's bigoted policy. But I do support the BSA's *right*
> to have a bigoted policy.

Looks to me like you got a form letter, Mr. Kadle [sic] (hehe :).
I doubt Mr. Hate (Love, whatever) read it at all.

Ummm, in the future, a lot of people in soc.motss would appreciate it
if you'd refrain from cross-posts to rec.scouting and this group
(guess which one I mean).  I realize you meant well, but really:

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism,soc.motss

Just add alt.sex.bestiality and you'd have the cross-post from hell, eh?
:)



[] ---
[] Mike Batchelor -- mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US -- cerritos.edu!batpad!mike
[] Long Beach, California
[] Send me lawyers, guns, and money - QUICK!  The shit has hit the fan!
From: fjb@druwa.ATT.COM (Jeff Bogart)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Wood Badge Ceremonies Wanted - (Worldwide)
Date: 6 Apr 92 16:57:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: drutx.15120

in article <1992Apr4.082619.23093@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann) says:
> I would like to collect as many ceremonies as possible before that time so
> that I may choose the proper ceremony for the parties involved.

I've never used a formal ceremony script for bead presentations but feel like
you do that it needs to be tailored to the occasion.  Normally, I use the
following format:

 1.  Describe what Wood Badge is and mention any upcoming opportunities.

 2.  Call upon all Wood Badgers in the audience to come up to help in the
     awarding process - I'll give each item to someone to present.  Often
     the beads to the person's ticket counselor.  This leaves my hands and
     mind free to tell the stories.

 3.  Remove the green training neckerchief and present the mauve one.
     I tell the audience what the green one is all about and a brief story of
     the giving of the Gilwell property to the Scouts by McClaren - thus the
     swatch of tartan.

 4.  Present the beads.  I tell a brief story of how B-P got (stole?) the
     beads, his choice for the award after his early training, and the followup
     of the descendents of Dinizulu asking for them back but pleased with their
     disposition.

 5.  And of course BSA gives a certificate for everything.

 6.  Then we all sing one verse of the Gilwell song, inserting our own patrol
     name and sit down.

Have fun, use lots of humor, and don't worry about "doing it right".

Cheers,

A "Stumpy Bob White", Jeff, from Philmont 383.
--
                               ~               *******    
    Jeff Bogart         ~                    ***********    
    (303) 538-4268     __      _   _!__     *************   
    att!druwa!fjb _   /  \_  _/ \  |::| ___ *************     ~
From: mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement
Date: 3 Apr 92 15:09:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: mailer.1992Apr3.100931.20522
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Florida State University Dept. of Computer Science

In article <1992Apr3.004013.17386@pony.Ingres.COM> jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger) writes:
>...  Scouting explicitly has nothing to say
>about how the individual sees God, the merits of any particular belief,
>whether it's a traditional belief or not, or whether it's in connection
>with any mainstream religion or not.  All faiths are respected.  "I have
>no theology you can put a name to but I know what I believe" is respected.
>"I can't put my faith into words" is respected.

As long as one of the words you are willing to but your faith into is
"God", it seems. Why be so hung up on that?

I can assure you that requiring that word of Buddhists (and I'm told the
BSA accepts Buddhists and still has a Buddhist religious award) is actually
working against right understanding of their faith.

How would Christians like it if their children were required to swear to
do their duty to "Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha", but were reassured that
they could interpret these any way they wanted to?

Sometimes it is true that non-mainstream beliefs are accepted. It has been
interesting to read some scouters saying "In my troop we never made an
issue of religion." And some atheists and agnostics who have become
Eagle scouts, without facing the Inquisition at their board of review.
Sometimes, unfortunately, it is not. The defenders of the BSA like to point
to instances where the stated national policy is not followed. Those
criticizing are looking at other, well publicized cases, in which national
policy has been asserted.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scouting