From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: Reason vs. Morals
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 10:53:26 GMT

Aziz Faris (faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU) wrote:
: 
: I will grant you the benefit of the doubt here on whether Islam sought to
: correct or perfect the other religions. All religions are driven by ideals
: inorder to shape their respective followings. Also all religions take into
: account the human nature, and this is where I disagree with you totally
: that Islam takes into account less of the human nature than the other
: religions. This fact is borne about and evident in some of the Islamic laws
: such as:

Thank you for letting us know your knowledge about Islam.

: 
: 1. not allowed to consume alcoholic beverages, while lots of MUslims drink
: while hiding it.

Our argument here is whether Islam takes into account human nature. You 
argue that Islam does not take into account about human nature by allowing
the drinking of alcohol.
	The fact is that alcohol is poison. It is a stimulating drug that dulls
brains. It is "addictive". 
	You may say that you are never drunk, never addicted, but I actually
saw a man, who is clearly drunk, "do not admit that he is drunk".
	Also an addict will never admit that he is an addict.

A lot of accidents are caused by drunken driving.

If it is clearly so dangerous to drink alcohol, it is "unreasonable" to
drink alcohol. If you are really a reasonable person, you will never drink,
not even a drop, because it is addictive. Just like other drugs.
	In fact those who drink are driven by "nafsu"(desire) not reason.

ISLAM uses reason not desire to set rules(moral), based on human nature.

: 2. Women must adhere to certain dress codes, while men don't.

The sexual desires for man and women are different. In fact a lot of ancient
cultures that rely on "reason" have different dress codes for men and women,
the women are more strict.
	The current western dress code is based more on "desire" rather than
reason. Men will be attracted by naked women because of "desire", not because
of reason, so that a more exposed women will look more attractive. However
this is not true because a beautiful woman is still beautiful even if she
is fully clothed, but it is a different kind of attraction.

If you refer to my previous posting, the above observation will surely be an
indication that western reason is based on "desire" especially sexual,
 rather than "human survival".

: 3. You cannnot critise your religious laws. My understanding such actions are
: punshable by death.

Do not confuse Islam with governments. Just because some Muslim governments 
implement those rules do not mean that it is Islamic. By the same reasoning,
I do not judge western philosophy(whatever they are) based on some dictators
like Nazis, Serbs etc.

: 4. If your are born unto Islam, you cannot convert to any other religion if
: you are not happy with its teachings.

I do not know of any precedence that this is the case. There was only one
case mentioned of bedouins who were executed because they become muslims,
and then suddenly become non-muslims, and even mocked Prophet Muhammad and
islam with lies, during the time of war. Their execution is similar to
execution of spies.
	This precedence is used by some to indicate that anyone who mockingly
become muslim will be executed, like that author". But then this is not war.
I do not recall the quran as saying this but it is clearly mentioned that
"there is no compulsion in religion", "the job of conversion is not up to
man", "murder is a very serious crime".
	Don't you see the contradictions?

Again this is based on reason of survival. Unlike some brands of christianity
who argue against any killing for whatever reason. Also modern western 
thought who argue against capital punishment, although  there were some
capital punishments practised with some tragic results.
	Even the execution of spies is allowed. All these executions are
allowed because of "self-preservation".

: 
: |> 	As an example, Islam allows divorce, polygamy, delicious food,
: |> sexual pleasure etc. because it knows the human nature. We just cannot pretend
: |> that a man will not be sexually aroused when he seed some parts of a woman's
: |> body. A resoning based on the fallacy that a man will not be aroused, is 
: |> called the "idealistic reasoning".
: 
: All other religions allow the things you indicate above with the exception of
You are abosolutely wrong. Only christianity(except mormon), disallow
polygamy, although the prophets in the bibble practise "polygamy". Read the
old testament.

: polygamy. I cannot tell you whether polygamy increases sexual pleasure, I only

The issue here is not to "increase", rather to allow.

: have one wife, that is all I want. However, I could see this concept introducing

That is what Islam encourages.

: more harm than good in the bonding a family that is composed of children from
: many wifes.

At least we know who the parents of the children are? It is not good so is
discouraged but knowing "human nature", it is allowed for special cases.
	Look at the results of "disallowing polygamy". You cannot even tell
who the parents of children are in western societies. Is that better to have
single parent with unknown fathers, for "family bonding"?

Results speak for itself but it is surprising that you do not see it.

: As for this "Idealistic reasoning", are you telling me that every time you see a
: woman you get sexually aroused?. This more or less indicates that you possibly
: do not have control over your sexual behaviour that is brought about from

So you have full control. You are not even aroused a single bit.

: religious customs that does not permit you to see women like the other religions
: do.
I lived in western society, Malaysia is highly westernised, with lots of
micro skirts, the new bikinis, western films. 

I'm still aroused but try to control it. 
It is not "human" not to have a slightest sexual feeling towards a naked woman.
(or semi-naked).
REmember that nudity is subjective. In the olden days, bikinis are nudes.

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet