From: kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Europeans Stunk
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:29:46 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In <1992Jul30.054139.9457@leland.Stanford.EDU> sidirop@leland.Stanford.EDU (stefanos sidiropoulos) writes:


First of all, nobody called Greeks as part of the West. So when
we discuss about good and bad sides of the West (after 5th century on)
Greece is not really the protagonist at all.

>> >They will prove that the roots of modern civilization were in Turkey, 
>> 
>> This is not something to prove. Turkey has been the cradle of
>> many civilizations that both gave birth to western and eastern
>> cultures since the beginning of known history. 

>Yes that's true. I happen to be of Pontian-Greek origin and the fact 
>is that MY GREEK ancestors were creating the civilization in Turkey
>2800 years ago. Yours where somewhere in Asia at that time...
>And just in case you repeat the crap of your previous message about 

Nationalism avec champignon ? Now listen to this :

Like every being unsure of what he is saying, you choose the
capslock style. As a matter of fact, much before the Greek
invaders came to todays's Greece, which was populated by the
civilizations whose culture to be adopted and whose populations
to be destroyed such as Troy or the proto Minoan cities,
there have been already many Anatolian cultures and civilizations. 
At that time Sumerians, whose language has almost as many
obvious Turkic words as today's Greek language has, (see S. Kramer)
was already literate before Phonecians visited you with alphabet books.
When Greeks invaded its present homeland, Egyptian kingdom was 
already some estimated 3000 years old. Never mind the Central
Asian plains, Anau, etc. Sumers and many others came from.
That their cities are no more (even 17th century ones
are destroyed in that harsh land) does not mean Greeks were
the only people to talk and write in 2nd mill b.c. When the Romans
were busy in choosing the well-built ancient Greeks as their slaves or
pleasure party toys, Huns were dominating a region that is roughly equal to
half-Eurasia.  When the Greek nation was its peak glory in Byzantine
one-man show of 7th cent, the imperial envoy was to return back to the
palace with the news that there is a powerful empire of the Turks in
Asia whose kings glory "was only  comparable with the Byzantine". When
Seldjuk Turks were fighting with the Byzantine-loyal Kipchak, Pechenek
and Uz Turks (Armenians ran away in the first hours) in 1071, Greeks
were in deep sleep. When the Turkish royal families were in power in
Russian and Ukranian steppes, Central Asia, India, Iran, and Egypt,
leve Ottomans for a second, the Greeks were queuing to flatter the
Turkish governors to get a bit more trade permission in Turkish
lands. They were celebrating Turkish conquests , especially their
local ones, but were quick to massacre every Turk in Athens in one
night in 19th cent. You see when England and Russia are behind with a
joint navy bombing Turkisg\h coasts the Hellenic bravery reincarnated.
You can point some vanilla-ice looking statues,
and literate but corrupt ancestors, and show off,   but I assure you
when it comes to history, we don't have the slightest inferiority
complex to any nation on Earth, let alone those were obedient to us
for centuries.

>"Perikles descendants trading in Instabul" take a walk at the local 
>library and open a descent linguistics book. It will really help you. 

Trust me -  I am the linguist.

>(i)  I have never in my life been exceptionally proud of being Greek, 
>     but seeing a behavior like yours I really feel that there must be 
>     something special on my Greek ethnicity. 
>(ii) With my ancestors story I dont mean I have any claim over the
>     land of Pontus.

And I dont have any over Yunanistan although some gran'pas
did landlording there. 

>> you are reading this line mant Bosnians are being killed or driven away
>> from home. 40,000 people are massacred and 2 million moved from home
>> in the heart of Europe, just because they are Moslems. 

>Could you please inform us what is the current situation in areas of 
>Turkey with Kurdish population ?


If you say this really believing , it is not a prophecy 
there will be further wars in the region - with such blind ignorance.
You ridicule the position of tens of thousands of civilian death,
and concentration camps, to get a slight advantage in a usenet
conversation.  Just as your PM supported Milosevic's genocide, to
pressurize the Yugoslav republic of  Macedonia. Actually there is so
many to feel guilty about being a "modern Greek" especially of 1992.

>> Europe has been the cradle of wars, massacres and intolerance,
>> and this does not seem to have changed. 

>While Turkey has been the mother of civilization, peace and progress
>for the world... Get a life!!

Now the West have the political supremecy. Under similar conditions
we  would be more just, we were more just during peace time.

Civilization is not buying German cars to show off in streets,
shouting  "hass-i", and stuffing yogurtaki, sucukaki, dolmaki whatever,
in bodrumi and dolapi, while quoting some alien people from ancient past
during EC meetings. It is to understand chauvenism and conceit are
meaningless, and that other human beings in the world are not 
enemy. I hope your ambition calms down and is replaced with wisdom.

>Oboy, another guy who tries to be more 'Mutluic' than Hassan (candidate
>for the kill file).  Not every Turk I know is like that but it seems that 
>there is a significant portion sick by 'Mutlu disease'

I would neither be happy or unhappy  if you add my name.

Kutluk