From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:44:42 GMT

stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) says:




>We didn't spar, just exchanged some ideas about gap closing.  Once he was
>in arms reach, his gap closing was fabulous.  He just burst in with a little
>ballestra-like movement (step up rear foot, push off lunge) and slammed
>into me, pinning my hands down and hitting me.  It was effective and made me
>feel completely helpless.  I might sidestep or back off if given enough time,
>but the explosiveness of the movement was impressive.  In sparring, it probably
>could have led to a finishing combination.  

Sounds like the Wing Chun Entry Technique.  There alot more going on.
It's meant to close the gap and get you in contact.  Once there,
you feel where the opponents Chi is directed, and other structure
abnormalities.  Then you react accordingly.

The movement is done on more of a forward hop than a lunge or "bombarding"
into someone.  If that's all your friend was using it for was to 
lunge into you, then he's missing what the techniqe is all about.
It's meant to get you in contact, not lunge through the opponent.
Wing Chun deals with alot of subtleties rather than just bombarding
and hitting away.

>It seemed a poor choice if started at slightly longer range, though, where I 
>could sidestep the lunge and catch him coming past, with a hook.

From the way you described, yes you could.  If the gentleman used
it correctly instead of bombarding, then no.  The whole movement
is a forward hop.  You don't want to jump up, and you want to try
and stay on the same level.  One hand is pushed out, and the other
slightly behind it.  (I won't give out the exact details).  The leg
is brought up as you described, as part of the overall shield.  It's
supposed to retain a springy nature so that if you were to kick
it, it would absorb impact.  Anyways, you enter in a controlled
hop, so that if the person should attack you, or change direction,
you can easily adjust to both.  Again, it's meant to gain
contact.  To a person not used to it though, it might look like a 
lunge and trap.  A big reason is because an experienced Wing Chun
man/woman can read your structure/chi abnormality in a split second
so that it seems like one fluid movement.

(I had a big problem with wanting to just lunge into people, when
I started learning the entry technique)

I've seen people using the entry technique succesfully from across
a room, to a medium distance.

>It seemed 
>like he couldn't see hooks coming too well because he was so focused on the 
>linear centerline principles, and expected control of the center to keep the 
>hooks away. 

You most certainly can control it from the centerline.  That's a big principle.
My guess is that he wasn't doing a number of things correctly.  Such
as not having a proper centerline structure, or watching the wrong areas
of the body, or just plain not having experience in dealing with rounds from
a centerline idea.  Hooks come in at an odd angle, and the hand dissapears
out of range of vision pretty quick.  That's why we usually watch the
elbow's.  I've also seen alot of people in Wing Chun expect to
stop a round just because they inhabit the centerline.  (They expect
it to magicly stop because they have their hands there, and
your punch couldn't possibly do something without crossing the center.)
NOT.  The centerline is meant as an advantage and a reference/starting
point.  Not as the secret-win-all(tm) technique.

Alot of it has to do with how people train in the Kwoon also.  When
I came to the Kwoon that I'm at now, they were training against wide
Gung Fu or Wu Su rounds.  They just were not being realistic.  I've
boxed and worked with alot of boxers, so I exposed them to more
of an efficient round that they were not used to dealing with.  Alot
of them still have problems with it because it comes in on more of a 
linear arc than a wide sweep.

>He had a great short punch, but I think didn't 
>really understand the function of the boxing jab too well (I guess because it 
>is a completely different philosophy of gap closing, a rangefinder and
>dancing long range disruptor rather than a centerline blast with arm control).

Good observation.  Again, there's alot more to the WC punches than meets
the eye.  The punch uses mainly the tricept to punch, and the body
does not twist.  (To twist goes against various principles, including balance,
and centerline).  Once you have developed the punch, you should be
able to produce a force equivalent to your body weight, no more no less.
The punch comes from a forward position (similar to a boxers), not
cocked at the hips, like many systems do.  It travels up the center line
and if blocked or not doing more than one punch, remains extended
(not locked though) to attach to the person and read his intentions
(hence the sticky idea).  The multiple punches just roll out and
retaint the same sticky concept.  To someone outside of WC, it seems
like the guy is just flailing away.  And to those who say "Well I'll
just grab the punch when he leaves it extended", it's easyer said
than done.  Don't forget, I'm just describing bit by bit what happens,
with words.  It LOOKS totally different in person.


>So I guess, I'd agree, from this one experience at least, that the long range
>skills I saw were 'handled' but definitely not highly developed, and that the
>real power was definitely in the quick flurries from punching range into
>very close range.  Very aggressive and very direct.  Definitely effective.

If you ever get a chance, go to a WC seminar by someone who has been doing
it for 6 years or more.  The long range techniques ARE highly developed
as are short and middle.  It's just many people lack the "road mileage"
to use them, or even the knowlege of them.  Another principle of Wing Chun,
that also extends into Bruce's personal Jeet Kune Do, is to have a small
repetoire(sp?) of techniques rather than a full arsenal.  So many
times you will see WC people do simple techniques at the long range
rather than extravigant techniques.  This too can be seen as being
"not highly developed", but in actually the development is in the
principles being used not the techniques.

>The trick for this kind of fighter, I think, would be 
>getting from just outside punching range into punching range in a position
>where they could start their trapping and blasting, without getting caught 
>by straight punches sidestepping into hooks.  If there is no contact with the
>arms, the ability to trap to close the gap becomes eliminated somewhat.

I'm not sure, are you saying what you would do to a WC person, or what
you think a WC should be doing?

If your talking about against a WC person, it ain't gonna happen. 
Don't forget, you said your friend was using a modified WC style.
From the way you described it, it seems like he has alot of
holes in his modified style, most likely because of the modification.
Although I'm sure he's a good fighter, I wouldn't exactly use
him as an example of Wing Chun, or what to do against a person in
Wing Chun.
Contact does not need to be maintained to read a person for stopping
him within the Wing Chun system.  WC is everybit as defensive as it
is offensive.  There's alot of footwork and placement theory
involved (that I can not describe here) that makes it very
hard to "sidestep into hooks" as you described.  Nor would a WC
person just start in blindly with traps and straight punches.  There's
alot more to WC than that.
Againts your friends modified style though, it sounds like it
would work.


>I'll have to work with him a little more and see what he thinks.

Do me a favor and ask him who he studied under, and for how long. :)

>							kind regards,
>
>							todd


Marty 

Do