From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:27:39 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 11 Oct 1992 04:06:16 -0500


>Bruce Tiffany writes:
> 
>RL >>OK, let's rephrase.  The term "good" is too vague:
>>>    "The only authentic Jew is a Christian Jew."  Well?
>>
>> I'd still say you sound like Tom Albrecht, and I'd still disagree.
> 
>Great.  Since you disagree, please tell me who are
>the authentic Jews who reject Christianity?

Rob Levene, Rob Strom, Howard Levene, Dan Levene, Sam Saal, Yaakov Kayman,
and a host of others I know, and of course millions I don't know.  They
are all authentic, bonafide Jews who thus far have rejected the Messiah
of Israel.

>> How about this one: "The only authentic Jew is a Rabbinic Jew."  Well?
> 
>Accurate.

As I said, only one of the two Jewish factions is claiming the other isn't
Jewish.

>>> If the later is a "strictly a Jewish question" then why is it that all
>>> the "ayes" are Christian and all the "nays" are Jewish?  It's only
>>> "strictly Jewish" if you call Christianity a form of Judaism, in which
>>> case we would be discussing the former question of the line of distinction.
> 
>> The "ayes" are Messianic, and the "nays" are Rabbinic.  So these two
>> factions within Judaism disagree about who Messiah is.  But only the
>> Rabbinic faction is saying you can't be Jewish unless you agree with
>> them.

>Then why the amazing coincidence that all these "Messianics"
>happen to be Christians?

It really does not become a smart fellow like you to feign such intense
stupidity.  It's getting old, Rob, and I wish you'd cut it out.

It is no coincidence that Messianics (Christians) are Christians
(Messianics)!  Don't you know what "Christ" means??

>  If they are, then it is a matter of
>distinction between Christianty and Judaism.  If they're not,
>then please tell me which Messianics are not Christians.

Your conclusion simply does not follow from the above statement.

Now, there is a distinction between Messianic and Rabbinic Judaism.  And even
as there are differences within Rabbinic Judaism, there are differences
within Messianic Judaism and between Jewish and Gentile Messianics (you
don't have to be a Jew to be Messianic, after all!).

>Please answer, or point out the flaw in my logic.  I try
>to keep it as tight as possible.

I think you've wrapped it just a little *too* tight, Rob.

>>> Does acceptance of Jesus automatically make one a Christian?  If yes,
>>> then the follow-up is "Is Christianity a different religion from
>>> Judaism."
>>
>> YOUR followup.  But you are wrong.
> 
>My first premise is the assertion that accepting Jesus makes one a
>Christian, therefore "Messianic Jews" are Christians.  Is this wrong?

It is right.

>( Don't answer with "they're completed/fulfilled Jews."

I don't believe I ever have, although that's a good way to put it.

>  The question is "Are they Christians?" )

Yes.

>My second premise is that assuming that accepting Jesus makes one
>a Christian, then the legitimacy of using "Judaism" to encompass
>Christianity hinges upon their being or not being different religions.
>Is this wrong?

No.

>>  Biblical Christianity is not a different
>> religion from Biblical Judaism.  But it certainly is a different religion
>> from Rabbinic Judaism, and RJ's want us to believe that Rabbinic Judaism
>> is the only Judaism.
> 
>Please clarify your terminology:
> 
>1. What forms of Judaism exist apart from "Rabbinic Judaism" today?

Messianic Judaism.

>2. What forms of non-Christian "Biblical Judaism" exist today?

None.

>3. Are there any forms of non-Christian, yet still legitimate Judaism today?

It depends on what you mean by "legitimate".  You don't have to be
Messianic to be a legitimate Jew.  And although Rabbinic Judaism is wrong
about a lot of things, it isn't wrong about everything.  I would not say
Rabbinic Judaism is not legitimate, although much of it (including its core
belief that Yeshua is not Messiah and that man is basically good and
perfectable and thus able to save himself apart from HaShem) is.

>4. What forms of Christianity exist apart from "Biblical Christianity" today?

Technically none.  But since the term is generally used to encompass people
who merely have some loose affiliation with a Christian heritage, then
a lot of what goes under the name is not Biblical.  Also, a lot of church
tradition is not Biblical.

>5. Are any of these "non-Biblical" forms of Christianty legitimate?

You're coming from such a different frame of reference that you're still
not going to comprehend what I'm saying.

Generally "unbiblical" and "non-Biblical" mean illegitimate.  However,
there are good church traditions which, although they aren't necessarily
Biblical (that is, they're not in the Bible), are still good and legitimate.

Hanukkah is technically not Biblical (although there may be reference to
it in the NT), but certainly is good and legitimate.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany