HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Discussion request: Keeping soc.religion.* flat
Summary: Let's end the debate and call for voting
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:58:47 GMT
Organization: Biology Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <SUOPANKI.92Nov12004434@zombie.oulu.fi> heikki.suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi writes:
>>>>>> On 11 Nov 92 18:26:34 GMT, rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana) said:
>
>Nabeel> no solution at all. One can then say to keep the rec.sport.* 
>Nabeel> hierarchy flat. Since there might be controversy whether a sport has
>Nabeel> a sub-sport or not? For another example there two newsgroups called:
>Nabeel> rec.sport.hockey
>Nabeel> rec.sport.hockey.field
>Nabeel> Now, I may suggest that the rec.sport.hockey.* heirarchy should be
>Nabeel> kept flat. Because I personally don't consider ice hockey as hockey
>Nabeel> at all. To me the only true hockey is field hockey and I can debate
>Nabeel> on that for lenths. (Remember this is my persanal view).
>
>Those groups should be rec.sport.field-hockey and rec.sport.ice-hockey.

I absolutely agree; a point well made.  In earlier articles, I have
advocated the settling of this Ahmadiyya vs. non-Ahmadiyya debate,
which seems to be going nowhere by the following suggestion.  You might
have missed them, so here is a summary:

1.	Both groups claim to belong to Islam

2.	Both groups can't get along well at all in the same newsgroup.

3.	Neither group seems to have a problem seeing the other with a
	newsgroup of its own.

4.	Hence there should be two newsgroups:
	a) soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya
	b) soc.religion.islam.non-ahmadiyya

5.	soc.religion.islam, therefore, should cease to exist as such, since
	it does not include all those who profess Islam as their faith.

	But I think what is important is that every school of thought
be represented on the net in as much fairness as possible.  The issue
of name should not stand in the way of the smooth running of the net.
And the parties involved should know that there's a maxim:

	A ROSE, CALLED BY ANY NAME, SMELLS JUST THE SAME

Regards,
Rasheed.

P.S. However, I think that when the CFV is announced, I intend to vote
YES for soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya, since I think it is a fair name,
Xref: sparky news.groups:21451 comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives:4833
From: jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J J Farrell)
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives
Subject: Re: CFV: comp.archives.msdos.announce and comp.archives.msdos.d
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:05:04 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: ICL, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 4SN, UK

In article <1992Nov12.100843.13310@uwasa.fi> ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) writes:
>In article <BxIos3.4po@uunet.uu.net> vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil writes:
>>This is the official Call For Votes regarding the creation of the
>>comp.archives.msdos.announce and comp.archives.msdos.d newsgroups.
>:
>
>Please note the following fact.  This call for votes dated Tue, 10
>Nov 1992 20:26:26 GMT is valid, and if you wish to vote, you should
>respond to it. 
>
>But if you already voted based on the draft that was sent out about
>a week ago because of a misunderstanding, your earlier vote is not a
>valid vote!  (Our apologies for the mixup).
>
>...

This vote is getting a bit beyond a joke. I voted in response
to the original invalid CFV a week or so ago. I read that that was
invalid, so watched out for the valid CFV.

I saw the new CFV (10 Nov 20:26 GMT) a few hours ago, and voted in
response to that. This time I get

> Your message was not delivered to   vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil
>         for the following reason:
>         Unknown Address
>         MTA 'tacom-emh1.army.mil' gives error message 
>         <vote@tacom-emh1.army.mil>... User unknown 

Anyone know when I'll be able to send a vote that WILL be accepted?!

I realise that organising a vote is non-trivial, but this sort of
thing doesn't exactly encourage participation. About the only thing
which most people agree on in the current Great Synth Debate is that
participation in votes should be encouraged.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 00:39:00 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

> Many people have expressed confusion over this process and have
> questioned it.  Are they all "ignorant" in your eyes? 

Anyone who doesn't know what the letters "RFD" or "CFV" mean is ignorant
of the meanings of those acronyms.  It is up to each individual person to
reduce their level of ignorance about how the net works . . . and all that
would have required in this case would have been for them to either a) ask
someone or b) *read the damned message*.

When someone gets pulled over for running a red light, it's very hard to
take them seriously when they insist that not only should they be let go
because they didn't know what the red light meant, but also that all red
lights should immediately be replaced with big neon signs that say STOP
YOUR CAR HERE RIGHT NOW OR SOMEBODY COULD GET HURT!

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RENAME: Those against name change PLEASE READ!
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:40:21 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

This article had its "Followup-to:" set to "rec.music.makers.synth".
I find it difficult to understand why this was done; it seems to me
that this belongs in news.groups, so I have followed up there and
set the "Followup-to:" to point there as well.

In article <1992Nov14.012953.1615@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>I have no such urges; why speculate on my motives when you only have
>>to ask and then you will know?
>
>Ok...he may not but now *I'm* asking. 

Fine...but *what* are you asking?  (There's no question directed at me
in your article, and I'd rather not waste time answering until I have
a clue what the question is.)

>>A lot of your fellow network readers feel that the new name is more
>>appropriate (they voted for it); some of them feel that it is not (they
>>voted against it).
>
>Unfounded...however you can say that "a lot of your fellow network 
>readers that keep up with news.groups...".

I said "network readers", and I stand by it.  I do not know which voters
read which newsgroups, so I cannot say whether they are people who keep
up with news.groups, news.announce.newgroups, alt.guitar, or any other
group.  This is why I used the general term "network readers".  If you
have hard, verifiable data which establishes your point, please provide it.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.equestrian.racing
Organization: Vanderbilt University 
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:26:04 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21

I would suggest that if this is done, there should also be
rec.equestrian.misc
for other "horse" sports.  Also, should it have its own subhierarchy, or should
it be under sport or gambling?
A final suggestion: the existing DERBY mailing list should be gatewayed to it.

I support the idea.


Andy Lipscomb
lipscoja@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Bitnet: lipscoja@vuctrvax)
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
Xref: sparky news.groups:20433 rec.music.synth:17832
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored20663
Date: 6 Nov 1992 18:49:48 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov5.234929.13183@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>
	<1992Nov6.014628.8460@iscsvax.uni.edu>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: gingeric9178@iscsvax.uni.edu's message of 6 Nov 92 01:46:28 -0600

In article <1992Nov6.014628.8460@iscsvax.uni.edu> gingeric9178@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:

   I'd like to say that this is the first time I have posted about the renaming of
   r.m.s. and I wish to have a revote if that is at all possible.  Thank you...

   Robert Williams, driller killer, ripping holes..

On what basis?  Operator error?  "I ignored the CFV and I want a
second chance."

--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:12:51 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>I'm attempting to match your tone of voice.

Just be yourself, Gordon.

>Should someone uninterested in creating a news group HAVE to read 'How to  
>Create a New Usenet Newsgroup'?

If he's interested in the process, he _will_ read "How to Create" and
the other new user documents.  There's no "have to" about it.

>So, upon reading  these you feel it should be clear to anyone what RFD
>and CFV stand for and that there presence in a newsgroup means that they
>are for that group and  can't be there for any other reason (such as
>informational)? 

Gordon, you forget who you're talking to.  I already support the
proposal for supplemental articles along the lines of "Your group may
be renamed, here's how to vote".

My separate point is that anyone who cares how these things work will
be a regular reader of n.a.newgroups, and will therefore be familiar
with the terms involved.  I have little sympathy for people who have
"too little time" to read n.a.newgroups but who then have lots of time
to complain after a vote goes against their expectations.

I think we agree on what to do, just not on why to do it.

>IMO, the above documents DON'T "well describe the process" in and of  
>themselves if the process used terms that aren't defined therein.

Well, that's your opinion; I happen to disagree.

>You're missing the point. Your contention was that users should read  
>news.announce.newgroups if they care enough. My point is that the spirit  
>of the guidlines SEEMS to be that people should be informed in a more  
>direct fashion.

And they were ... but you, also, are missing a point: the reason for
the existence of n.a.newusers.  It was created specifically because
RFDs and CFVs can easily go unnoticed in the flow of a high-volume
newsgroup (such as news.groups!).  Failure to take advantage of this
specific provision is, to me, sufficient evidence of disinterest in
the group creation process.

>I don't think news.announce.newgroups is enough.

Well, that's your prerogative.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tomh@wes.on.ca (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Organization: Waterloo Engineering Software
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:51:01 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> A lot of people dropped away from r.m.s when they heard about the name 
> change...

Out of curiosity, I went and looked at the spool directories on our system
for rec.music.synth and rec.music.makers.synth.  Very interesting!  Even
with the lower propagation new newsgroups always have, there is a *LOT* of
synth traffic in the new newsgroup, which appears to disprove Dave's claims
about (1) people dropping out, and (2) about the synth readers not being
willing to switch to the new newsgroup.

For the last 24 hours (which is as long as we've had r.m.m.s here):

    Group			rec.music.synth	  rec.music.maker.synth
    # of articles		79		  45
    # of newsgroup flames	35		   1
    # of "real" synth articles	44		  44

And just to prove that it's not just a single person trying to flood the 
new newsgroup to prove Dave wrong (as if that's needed), here are the
names of the posters to rec.music.makers.synth in the last 24 hours:

Adam Arviola     BJORN KLEVEN        Canton Becker Chris Williams
Craig DeForest   Dan Harkless        Dan Keldsen   Darrin P Cardani
Dave Cuddihy     Dave Hayes          David Charlap David Jacobowitz
Erika Blumberg   Esa-Pekka P{lvim{ki Frank Breier  gingeric9178@iscsvax.uni.edu
J. Kintscher     jay millar          Jay Tobias    Jeffrey Seymour
Josh             larsen@meena.cc.uregina.ca        Marc T. Kaufman
Mason Wong       Maud Hickey         Mike Brown    Nicholas Velharticky
palamino         Pete Lyall          Pete Turner   Randy Jones
Rich Kulawiec    Sarcastic Man       Sean Hogarty  seh003@acad.drake.edu
Stephen Harrison The Piano Man       Thomas Stiemerling

Doesn't look quite dead, does it?

Give up, Dave -- even the synth readers have accepted r.m.m.s!

[ \tom haapanen    "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
[ tomh@wes.on.ca                   "trust the programmer" -- ansi c standard ]
[ waterloo engineering software      "to thine own self be true" -- polonius ]
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:53:16 GMT

mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>If you don't read the instructions you can't expect sympathy.

This is not necessarily a good policy. It is for admins who don't have
time to be bothered with mere users. 

>Well I never.  You use Waffle, just like us.

I didn't say it was impossible. 

>If you don't have AWK, get it from SIMTEL or somewhere, or I can mail it to
>you.  If you don't have 4DOS I can send you that as well.  Now STOP WHINING!

I have these things, I'm not impressed by the negativism attached to
whining, and the damage is already done. I'll continue to respond to
the clueless, the elitist, and the flamers as I chose...it's a free net.

The next thing I *originate* will be some changes to the guidelines. I'm
sorry that you folks feel that it's an unholy thing to try and save a 
newsgroup...but tough tiddy. I did.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

        Envy devours good deeds, as a fire devours fuel.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:42:59 GMT

In article <1762@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
> Maybe in your world. ANYTHING outside of the alt.* hierarchy is a promotion.

Nonsense. What about talk.* (AKA flame.*)?
-- 
% Peter da Silva % 77487-5012 % +1 713 274 5180 %
true(<<VV$@\\$'&O 9$O%'$LT$&$"V6"$&$<4$?'&$ #I&&?$=$<<@)24 24 scale 3 21 moveto
{dup 36 eq{pop not}{dup 7 and 4 sub exch 56 and 8 div 4 sub 2 index{rlineto}{
rmoveto}ifelse}ifelse}forall stroke pop showpage % Har du kramat din varg idag?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: EPW@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (E Wong)
Subject: RFD rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: CUNY Grad Center, NY
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:38:52 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

    I have been following the proposed addition to the rec.games.frp
hierarchy with some interest as I have been a long time (though silent)
reader of rec.games.frp.* I can even recall the days before the split
when it was just rec.games.frp, and I was going through 100+ messages
per day.
 
    I am also a reader and contributor to cbnorman's Fidonet AD&D echo
and I am familiar with the campaign games that go on over there.
Although some of the material is very well written, I largely skip over
those messages on the Fidonet because I have little or no interest in
those games. (I have also petitioned cbnorman to make it easier for me
to FILTER out those game posts when I download my messages). When I am
neither a player nor the judge, my interest wanes.
 
    It is from this perspective that I write. I agree with those who
oppose the creation of this newsgroup because I too feel that the cost
outweighs the benefit of such a group. It would attract low readership
and generate little interest to those not actually participating in the
games.
 
    As for the discussion of campaigns and the development of campaigns,
I feel that this has already gone on in existing newsgroups,
particularly .advocacy, .misc, and .dnd. Let me also add that the ADND-L
Listserv Mailing List and GMAST-L Mailing List also have had some good
discussion about campaigns. To split r.g.f.* yet again would be
redundant and ultimately unproductive.
 
    Finally, as I finalize negotiations with PSI to become an Internet
Site, I am beginning to realize that there is a great cost associated
with posting on the news as opposed to e-mail. And as I weigh the cost,
I do not believe the perceived benefits will outweigh the costs.
 
 
Elliott Wong
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: srogers@teenwolf.mcc.com (Steve Rogers)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.philosophy.objectivism
Organization: MCC
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:33:19 GMT

In article <Bx9w7v.997@uunet.uu.net> amc@cics.wustl.edu (Adam M. Costello) writes:
>I propose the unmoderated group
>
>talk.philosophy.objectivism
>
>as a more appropriate forum for the discussions of Objectivism currently
>going on in alt.politics.libertarian.

I'll second that.

| Steven Rogers  MCC/ESL  3500 West Balcones Drive
| Austin, Texas 78759-6509  (512) 338-3691 srogers@mcc.com
| Everything is disclaimed -
| Contents have spontaneously generated and posted themselves
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu (have clue, will travel)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Reply-To: jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu
Organization: The Ghost Of Christmas Past Society
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 19:08:14 GMT


adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) writes:
>horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde) writes:
>> adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) writes:
>> >This is the Request For Discussion regarding the proposal to split 
>> >the newsgroup rec.games.netrek, containing discussion of the game netrek.
>> >
>> 
>> Just a quick question...who died and made you GOD?
 
>My reply has been posted to news.groups per the rules specified by the
>netnews gods at uunet.uu.net.

>I encourage everyone to participate in the discussion!

Read as:  "If I encourage the whole net to discuss my proposal, the law of
averages states that, sooner or later, SOMEONE will be discovered who agrees
with what I want."

Also known as the "Infinite Number of Monkeys typing Hamlet" theorem.

You wanna take this out to all 15 rounds?  Fine.  You've got the right, by the
letter of the law, to waste everyone's time with this malarkey, according to
"the rules specified by the netnews gods".  All Horde (and others) were 
marveling at was the sheer chutzpah of a LURKER trying to dictate what the
format of the group should be.

Chuckle.  Can't WAIT for this to go down in purplish-red flames.

I'm waiting for alt.fan.alan-cabrera to pop up on my news server any minute 
now.  Some other enterprising soul must have had the idea by now...

				--Commodore Video Sex Pope, NCSU [retired]
				--"Coming Soon:  The Alan Cabrera Doll,
				--  just in time for the holidays!  Pull the 
				--  string and it looks around for support." 
--
                         jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu 
          ---------     have clue, will travel.    ---------
  "I am a penis. Worship me."--lead singer of rock band Bicycle Face,
vainly attempting to gain attention of the crowd at the Cat's Cradle
in Chapel Hill, while opening for Mojo Nixon & The Toad Liquors
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Stuff that has nothing to do with the campaign debate
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:38:16 GMT

In article <1dp325INN8t5@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:
>In article <BxI95n.n0p@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>>"I swing my longsword at the orc" is role playing
>>(hey, it's a role-playing game, I'm playing it, so I must be role playing!)
>>I don't think so....
>
>"cbnorman" (and boy, I'm getting tired of calling you by your login
>name, do you think you could bless us with your real name?), this
>post, more than any other, shows your complete lack of experience.  In
>fact, it calls into question your honesty.
>
I just recently did say my real name, though it was given in a rather
sarcastic sense.  I'll repeat it again for you Josh, my name is Bruce.
You can blame my login on my system administrator....

>Because...this very subject (i.e. "what is true role-playing") comes
>up time and again on r.g.f.dnd (and probably also .advocacy).  Had you
>actually been reading it for the last two months, you would have seen
>it.  Also had you actually been reading it, you would have seen the
>FAQ (which is posted quite regularly and is very detailed and
>well-written, I might add) which addresses this issue.
>
Josh...you question my honesty, I honestly question your intelligence.  I
in no way was trying do define what *was* role playing, I gave an example
of what was not.

And before you start strutting arround crowing "but how can you define whta
is not role playing if you haven't defined what it is", let me give you a
contrary example.

Define true love.  You can't, can you.

But if someone asked you if swallowing live goldfish was true love, you could
obviously say they were wrong.  Even though the question of exactly what is
role playing has not been answered, we know enough about it to recognize
what doesn't even come close.

Go to rec.games.frp yourself and ask everyone if "I swing my longsword at
the orc" is true role playing.  Come on Josh, embarass yourself there as
well as here.

>I think that cbnorman should receive about a hundred copies of the FAQ
>via e-mail.  This will probably flooed his mailbox, and he'll be so
>busy wading through it, he won't be able to bring this idiotic group
>up to a vote.
>
Thank you for once again demonstrating your intelligence and logic to the net

I am glad to have you as an oposer of .campaign.

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:24:40 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>If you scan  
>>several hundred messages a day would YOU notice a CFV if it didn't look  
>>like it was for your group?
>I would and I do.

So would you volunteer to inform each and every netter that it is his
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

      A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance 
                when the need for illusion is deep
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:59:54 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>I'm not posturing...I'm defending YOUR group from someone who would break it.

BAN-DINI. 

>I'll discuss your proposal to change the Guidelines as soon as you and Dave
>accept that the vote was properly conducted and accept the results.

In other words, you win or you are going to take your toys and go home.
What was that you said about kindergarten? 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Going to church does not make a person religious, nor does going to
school make a person educated, any more than going to a garage makes a
person a car.
Newsgroups: news.groups