From: jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff)
Subject: Re: That garden of eden "thang"
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 20:32:42 GMT

Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) writes:
: 
: 1)  The bible is a wonderful example of what the punishments will be and
: for what things a person will get punished.  It is written by people with
: finite minds who also had finite comprehension, FOR people with finite
: minds and finite comprehension.  It seems to me that God is perfectly fair
: in giving out punishment for what deserves it.

I disagree that God would be perfectly fair to punish based strictly 
on an admittedly imperfect decree.  I have a thousand doubts about
Christianity the answers to which I am sure are well within my ability 
to comprehend.  For example, why is credulity a necessary requirement for
salvation, yet credulity isn't a virtue in any other context.  If the 
answers aren't within my ability to comprehend, God has no business 
sending me to hell over them.

: 
: 2)  No act is finite, in my opinion.  Everything you do will be accounted
: for when you go to the judgement.  I should say we there.  Whether or not
: we go to the judgement seat of Christ which will be merciful and kind, or
: to the Great White Throne Judgement, we will be accountable for everything
: that we do or in that case, did.

What is the purpose of judgement?  Does God sit on the bench, point out
all the terrible things you did while being a Christian, then allow 
you to enter heaven without reparation simply because you are a Christian?  
I have never understood the purpose of judgement.  Christians sin 
just as much as us non-believers.  Imagine if our justice system worked 
this way, where Republican murders were freed after being convicted,
while Democratic shoplifters were sent to be executed in the most 
torturous manner possible.  The US would rightly be considered the
most barbarous nation that ever existed!

: 
: Conclusion)  God gave us the instruments we needed to follow his rules. 
: We understood completely those rules.  God punishes us if we don't follow
: those rules.  Simple.  There really is no question about our "finite"
: capabilities.  It is put forth so we can understand it, but some of us
: jost don't choose to.

Why do the most important of these rules have to be so arbitrary?
Love one another is a great rule.  Belief in God without evidence
is absurd.

: 
: 
: ---- As I'm sure yo know, Christianity is based on a certain ammount of
: faith.  

Could you provide some evidence for the Christian God which doesn't
require any faith?

:  Since when does any religion not ask you to have at least a LITTLE
: faith in what it teaches?  Even Atheists have to have a little faith in
: the fact that God does not exist.  Same with agnostics, cultists, etc...
: 
: My poin is this.  Without faith, there can be no true belief.  Since when
: can a man or woman who HAS TO KNOW every answer before he/she believes,
: ever achieve faith, and thus religion of any sort?  As I said, even
: Atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc...  Have some small ammount of faith
: in the fact that what they are saying is true.

I would give up my "faith" in a second if I were given some reasonable
evidence.  I don't have to "KNOW every answer" to change my mind.
Just the smallest scrap of unequivocal evidence and I would gladly
join the nearest fundamentalist church and start persecuting homosexuals
and liberals if it made him happy. ;-)
-- 
Jeff Young

Opinions expressed are mine alone.