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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:33:11 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: F-16's to Taiwan

Chelgoi,

Nice to hear from you again, hope you had a good summer.

Regarding the F-16 issue, Taiwan and China......

The potential for any old conflict anywhere makes the defense industries
salivate..... they find ways and arrangements for both sides to be supplied
arms....  During the Iraq/Iran 8 year war, the U.S. was providing weapons
and arranging for money (credit for the Iraqi's thru Saudi Arabia and the
Emirates) so they could pay for those while at the same time we were assisting
Israel which in turn provided (sold) arms and weapons to Iran....

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:20:45 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: F16s to Taiwan

Gretchen:

I don't know that we can do anything about the system....and the
Militiary Industrial complex....  These things evolve over generations..

Its nice to think that if more people had talked about peace instead of
war...particularly the Gulf war.....   That particular one was a set up,
in my opinion, all the way...  Some really bright minds play war (and now,
economic and political) games in the Pentagon and the White House and their
different games probably showed that if Iraq did this (or could be encoraged
to do this), it could be a bonanza in many ways to the U.S....and there it went!

In any case, most "aid" situations are also political pay offs of some sort,
whether its to the Russians (we give "credit" so the Russians get wheat while
the money immediately goes from our treasury to the Agricorps and the Russians
may, unlikely, repay in cash or by voting along with the U.S. in some UN
action that the U.S. will take for which the loan is forgiven) or to the
Kurds ....the "aid" is ten million which goes to a U.S. corporation that
provides blankets and foods to the Kurds for which it bills the U.S. treasury
....$10 for a $3 blanket..... the kurds are not going to complain anyway....

Gretchen, its nice that you have hope and are doing something.....I am
trying very hard to catch some of it....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:10:52 -0400
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE: Note

Hi people

I am doing computer information systems.....If anyone knows about Data
 processing management Association...please send me information..

Dilshad Ahmed
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 01:39:42 -0500
From:         JCWEST@INDYVAX.BITNET
Subject:      salutations...

greetings...!

     i wanted to send a message to say hello to those people active in this
service, and introduce myself to you (being a newcomer to this system and
all).   my name is joseph, i am currently attending iupui, and hope to find
a great deal of stimulating discourse about world topics.  here's hoping to
hear from you...
                                                  Joseph...
From: ptahbildar@ROSEDALE.ORG
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: F16s to Taiwan
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:47:52 GMT
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>In article <199209041730.AA08663@gateway.rosedale.org> ptahbildar@ROSEDALE.
>ORG writes:

>I'm not an expert on political analysis, but I can't help be skeptical at
>the true motive in the sale of the F16s to Taiwan, considering Taiwan's
>realationship with China and Dear George's "vision" on arms proliferation
>and his pushing China to halt transfer of arms to other third world countries.
>
>Probal

>I think it's quite obvious the the jet fighter sale is primarily a political
>move in an election year.  With thus sale, President Bush can only score
>more political points and have nothing to lose.  In this bad economic time,
>do you say no to someone who wants to spend millions of dollars on your
>products.  Besides, how can it hurt when selling arms to Taiwan?  Is Taiwan
>going to use those jet fighters to conquer America?  No.  Mainland China may
>be angry at this sale and may threaten to do something about it.  What are
>they going to do, nuke Washington D.C.?  If I was in President Bush's
>shoes, my re-election is my primary goal now and who cares about that those
>communist Chinese will say.
>Just my 2 cents.
>David


David,

I hope you were being sarcastic when you stated the obvious. If you weren't,
perhaps you will agree then that all of the recent American interventions
in foriegn countries have been based on economic reason and that Bush's
lectures on peace, etc have been just rhetoric.

Bush, by agreeing to sell the F16s to Taiwan, has broken the 1982 agreement
he himself signed with China which specifically limits the sale of military
aircraft to Taiwan. And he talks about other countries, including China,
being responsible for arms proliferation! Case in point - sale of nuclear
technology to Iran, Pakistan and Syria.

And if China were to carry out it's threat to stop buying wheat from America,
I'll really be interested in finding out how many jobs Bush in fact saved.
You will definitely agree that the USA desperately needs to sell wheat to
China.

This is another example of how George views the world - short term beneift
to him alone, a second term.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 11:54:07 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: F16s to Taiwan

This is in response to whoever it was that responded to David regarding the
political decision to sell F-16's to Taiwan...

Partcularly those who seem to blame President Bush....  Changing presidents
is not likely to make a difference...  With the possible exception of
Jimmy Carter (Going all the way back to 1960) everybody else who has been
president would likely make the same decision if it mattered as far as
saving their job was concerned....  I think Bill Clinton would do it too...

As far as rheoteric goes....(some newcomers to the U.S. get overly excited
by it)... few Americans bother to watch it...its why the ratings for
news shows is so low..  be it McNeil Lehrer's so called "in depth interviews"
or Ted Koppel or those "Meet the Press" shows whose audience dwindles as
we watch the more realistic football games PRESHOWS now that football is
finally here....

Perhaps the Chinese and the Russians never got the truth, we get so many
versions of the truth, that it hardly matters anymore.....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:22:26 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Death Penalty

Dilshad, Marc

Dilshad,

You gave an example of someone who would want another hanged for murder of
his brother.....  there probably are others who would want to see the man
rot in jail for the rest of his life.......  From an economic point of
view I would probably see the man dead (it costs some $20,000 + to keep
a man in jail at taxpayers expense)....but then again, since so few are
rehabilitated and most get out and commit crimes all over again, perhaps
we should execute for most crimes involving bodily harm including
premeditated assaults, rape and so on....

zahir
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:22:23 -0400
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      RE:

Hello ...

Joseph...we all welcome you and hope that you enjoy the freindly discussions..

Dilshad Ahmed
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:43:24 CDT
From:         Mustafa AlAbsi <u717@REX.UOKHSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: salutations...

Welcome Joseph.
What is IUPUI?
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:30:16 -0600
From:         "Janet C. Constantinides" <CONSTANT@CORRAL.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Death Penalty

Just an observation on the "conversation" between Dilshad and Zahir on the
death penalty:
	The assumptions each brings to the discussion is a direct reflection
of the differences in the cultures involved.  If a culture puts a premium
on the group good, then public execution is reasonable.  But if a culture
puts a premium on the good of the individual, then execution, whether
public or not, is a debatable action.
	The US falls into the latter category (No flames, please; even if
we don't always act in ways that would support that, it's part of the
cultural given for this culture).  That's why there are stays of
execution and debates about the humane (!) way to execute a person, etc.

I just found "listening in" on this conversation that I was witnessing
a wonderful example of cross-cultural communication  :-)

Janet
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:28:38 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: F16s to Taiwan

Chelgoi,

Yes, we may be defined as some sort of organization.....and we might
make a difference...in terms of private help to the Somali's...
but Government help ?  The Somali's do not have a vote in the U.S. we might
be able to buy..... and they do not have a lobby either....

Yes, to some extent, public pressure does occassionally result in
some sort of action.....and maybe some help will be provided to the
Somali's...

If it was up to the American people and the government belonged to them,
help would have been on the way a long time ago.......

I am sorry for painting such a depressing picture...

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:07:46 -0400
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject: Re: Death Penalty

Hello Janet..

nice to hear from you ...I don't get the meaning of analogy...

Dilshad Ahmed....
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 01:46:28 EST
From:         Gretchen Schirmer <IQZK100@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: salutations...

Joseph -- Welcome.  So nice to see another XCULT-L member from IUPUI.  What
are you studying?  What are your international interests?

Peace,
Gretchen Schirmer
IUPUI
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:06:15 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: RE:

Sam,

I would love to see an end to the conflict and some peace to the
Palestinians....

I don't believe it will happen.......or last... Agreements made under
duress rarely last....  The Palestinians have been battered into submission
after years and years...of lands confiscated, beatings administered and
people killed.....

Some have had enough.....  They MAY come out with an agreement of some
sort that some palestinians may agree with......

I hope you are right and peace does come out of it.....

Zahir
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 08:52:00 CST
From:         CHELAGOI <CHOWNING@ACUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Somali Emergency Action

From:   BITNET%"AFRICA-L@VTVM2.BITNET"      "FORUM PAN-AFRICA " 11-SEP-1992 19:3
2:54.37
To:     ANDY WILSON <AJW17733@ACUVAX.BITNET>, Richard Chowning <CHOWNING@ACUVAX.
BITNET>, Rod Calder <RMC73288@ACUVAX.BITNET>, sherry bennett <SLB78833@ACUVAX.BI
TNET>
CC:
Subj:   SOMALIA: new action appeal

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          for CHOWNING@ACUVAX; Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:32 CST
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Comments:     Resent-From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Comments:     Originally-From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
From:         Dorothy Morse <dmorse@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject:      SOMALIA: new action appeal
Comments: To: "Moderator of conference bitl.africa" <AFRICA-L@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
To:           ANDY WILSON <AJW17733@ACUVAX.BITNET>,
              Richard Chowning <CHOWNING@ACUVAX.BITNET>,
              Rod Calder <RMC73288@ACUVAX.BITNET>,
              sherry bennett <SLB78833@ACUVAX.BITNET>

/* Written  7:13 pm  Sep 10, 1992 by dmorse in cdp:soc.cult.afric */
/* ---------- "SOMALIA: new action appeal" ---------- */
Please call the House Select Committee on Hunger at 202-226-5470.
Or fax them at 202-226-0034.

The members of the International Task Force of this committee are
Vic Fazio, California
Peter H. Kostmayer, Pennsylvania
Byron L. Dorgan, North Dakota
Bob Carr, Michigan
Timothy J. Penny, Minnesota
Albert G. Bustamente, Texas
Eni F.H. Faleomavaega,
        American Samoa
Alan Wheat, Missouri
(the above are Democrats)

Benjamin A. Gilman, New York


Robert F. (Bob Smith), Oregon
Doug Bereuter, Nebraska
Duncan L. Hunter, California
Frank R. Wolf, Virginia
Christopher H. Smith, New Jersey

(the above are Republicans)

If any of the above are your representative, it would be quite effective
to phone that representative personally, or fax him.


Please phone or fax the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Subcommittee
on African Affairs

Phone: 202-224-4651
Fax:  202-224-5011


Ali Mohamed of the Save Somalia Project also strongly advises continuing
to fax and phone Boutros-Ghali, Secretary General of the UN.

That fax number again is 212-963-4879

For Internet users, you may fax for free using the number
Boutros_Ghali@f00912129634879.fax.sunet.se

IGC (peacenet, etc.) may also fax with this free SUNET number. Do
as you do for email.  At the "To:" prompt, simply type in the free
number "Boutros_Ghali@f00912129634879.fax.sunet.se" (don't use
the quotes and don't use the prefix "Fax:").  This is treated
as email by IGC and there is no charge.  However, it generates afax
a fax at SUNET and comes out the UN fax machine.


Thank you for helping.  Let's give it all we've got and perhaps we will
save many innocent lives.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:52:03 -0400
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject: RE:

Sam,

Thanks for the xplanation...and yes I admire the organization and
commitment of the Jewish people in America.....  my comments were regarding
the assumption that what is good for Israel is good for America...and Israel's
desire for peace in the Middle East...

I think that by and large, the organization of and the strength of the Jewish
lobby has been good for America....  I disagree with them on that particular
issue...Israel...

I am glad you pointed out the aid to Egypt and other poor countries....and
also the forgiving of loans to support the Gulf war (basically its bribery
for a vote and troops)....  As I pointed out on other issues too, we are
always contributing to war machines whether selling Jets to Taiwan or
supporting Israel "defend itself" or arranging arms transfer to Iran or
Iraq....

zahir In the current atmosphere, without the USSR, Israel 'enemies cannot afford
tangling with the U.S. and Israel has no real ouside th
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:27:00 CST
From:         CHELAGOI <CHOWNING@ACUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: F-16's to Taiwan

While I was in Niger this summer the Niger interum government accepted
a gift from the Tiawan government which it, in turn, used to pay
troops who were about to "walk off the job."  Of course, China, a
large donor to Niger began to pull out of the country.

This makes me wonder what Tiawan is up to right now.  I wonder if
a move is underway which might brings some confrontation between
Tiawan and China.

--- Chelagoi
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 22:07:00 PDT
From:         "Sam Edelman, Ph.D." <SEDELMAN@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU>
Subject: RE:

Zahir,
I am just getting around to reading my e-mail, so my response to you is a bit
tardy.  But my answer is that while it is true that Israel spends more for its
defense than most nations per capita, that the reason for this expenditure is
that without it the Arab nations surrounding it would have subjugated it long
ago.  It is only because of its superiority in military affairs that Israel has
survived the last 40+ years.  The Israelis are tired of this burden and would
welcome the relief of peace.  They would have to spend less per capita and put
more into developing their standard of living.

While you also talk about $$$ going to prop Israel up you are also forgetting
that more dollars go to Egypt every year to maintain the peace and that $$$ go
to Jordan to prop up the little king and tyo a host of other Arab nations.
Egypt alone gets 4 billion $'s per year and after the Gulf war had 7billion of
its debt forgiven. Israel gets 3 billion per year and has paid off its debt in
full.  The 10billion in loan guarantees is to help Israel get favorable loan
rates only.

If there were peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors it would life quite
nicely thank you without the level of American aid now.

And yes Zahir, American Jews would still continue to push congress and the
president and the state legislatures on Jewish issues.  We learned a big
lession in the late 1930's and early 40's that if the Jewish community had had
the political clout it has now 6 million Jews might not have been murdered by
the Nazis.  At least the US would have opened its doors to immigration.
Because we were meek and politically weak we saw our coreligionists
slaughtered.  It was a hard lesson we will not easily forget.  So yes even if
there were no Middle East conflict today between Arabs and Jews the Jewish
community will remain a force in American politics. This lesson is being taught
by us to Latinos and Asians and the African American communities that voting
and political clout mean something.

Sorry for the long statement Zahir and others but I wanted you all to
understand that in many ways in America it is not enough to maintain your
cultural heritage unless you fight hard to protect your heritages growth by
protecting it from the trials and tribulations of the political structure.  If
more ethnic and cultural groups voted and joined in the democratic process they
too might have a chance to effect the legislature.  Without voting and support
activities you can easily be ignored.
Prof. Sam Edelman, CSU-Chico
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:25:00 PDT
From:         "Sam Edelman, Ph.D." <SEDELMAN@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU>
Subject: RE:

Zahir,
Its their only hope.  Their leadership has time and again pushed them away from
any chance for a lasting peace.  The Israelis offered to deal in 1947, 1967,
1979 and now.  Each time they rejected the proposals because they did not get
it all back.  They now need to act like the Israelis did in 1947, accept a
portion of what they desire.  If the Arabs had agreed in 1947 to the original
partition then the Middle East would be a different place today.  The
Palestinains now dream of a deal which no longer exists.  In world politics to
late to the game means that you are out.  The Palestinians should take what
they can get now.
Sam
From: AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: F16s to Taiwan
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:29:23 GMT
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Chelgoi,

I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I do not think that
public opinion and outcry can occur and if it does, that it will have
much effect...atleast in the U.S.....  Somalia has been on and off the
news for years now....

Outcries and generating media coverage is difficult ..... I remember
attending a huge anti-war rally in Los Angeles regarding the Gulf war and
there were over 50 groups and some 75,000 people downtown who were against
the Gulf war....and some 5000 people supporting Bush present... but on the
evening mews on all the TV channels, they gave equal time (about 30 seconds!)
and the shots seemed to indicate that the pro-war crowd was as large (camera
angles) as the anti-war.  It also was distressing to see shots of
groups such as Queer Nation (men in drag) and the Socialists as those who
were anti-war.

All the major TV companies in America are now parts of huge corporations
who deal with the government in a lot of areas...NBC is part of RCA which
is in defense and other industries, ABC also is in the entertainment
business with huge entertainment theme parks all around the country and
dependent on various state and federal regulations, GE owns a lot of stations
and so on.....

I don't think we censor so much as slant what gets on TV... When the average
man tries to complain, his letter is opened by a clerk or his call answered
by a receptionist... when someone at the whitehouse or a CEO calls to complain,
(unless its on the golf course) their call reaches the top.... and the
reporters and anchors know who they do not want complaining....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:51:00 GMT-0200
From:         EDUARDO CHAVES -- UNICAMP <CHAVES@CCVAX.UNICAMP.BR>
Subject:      Re: Note

Debra:

I am in Information Systems Management -- but in Brazil! ANd
I would also love do have the information you requested. So,
if anybody replies to your personal address, could you be so
kind and forward the information to me?

Eduardo CHAVES (CHAVES@CCVAX.UNICAMP.BR)
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