HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: Lets Have A Mail Meating
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 08:26:11 GMT

In <EemO19O00Uh_E1EnYU@andrew.cmu.edu> dm0f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dave McClory) writes:

>I'm Dave I am an Acholic
	[... text deleted ...]
>Well wife's . Good Job. Good days Bad days. Life stuff. The thing I find most
>baffiling abought recovery is that, I with out fail rime or reasion get
>every thing I need when I need it. I at time's am so happy I feel 10
>years old !!!

Thank you Dave.  This is one of the best descriptions of sobriety that
I have read in many years.
-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:10:53 GMT
Organization: Research and Evaluation Dept. Portland Public Schools, Portland Oregon.

maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:

>It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?

It isn't fair.  There are days that I am angry that I don't
get to drink any more, that I can't just have a glass of wine
with my friends after work.  But, as the note on my office wall
says, "life guarantees a chance, not a fair shake."  

You probably drink for the same reasons that a lot of us do/did --
I'm an alcoholic, so was my grandfather.  I liked being able to 
take that edge off, to numb some of the pain and fear.  And I 
couldn't stop either -- not until I hit a place where I think that
I realized that I would die (or scarier yet, kill someone else) if
I didn't.  I'm convinced that the only way that I got to that place
was that my HP put the person in my life who would drive me the
craziest, the fastest.  It's not that I wasn't part of that 
equation. . . .

I don't know, maybe the way to stop is to realize that you may kill
someone if you don't -- maybe that someone is you, maybe it is 
an innocent person.  

Mark, we're with you.  This is not an easy step.


-- 
***********************************************************************
Diana Thompson				     dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com
Portland Public Schools				(usual disclaimer here)
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 18:24:22 GMT

In  <22494@venera.isi.edu>  esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) writes:
>
> needs to do.  I don't think it has anything to do with me.  I don't
> particularly like the Lord's Prayer, or saying it, but since saying it
> doesn't conflict with any of my other beliefs, I go along with the group.

Hi Elaine,

Part of my own recovery has been learning when to not "go along"; when to
express myself in restrained and appropriate ways.  That particular prayer
does belong to a specific religious denomination, and when it is said, I am
put in the position of having to decide "do I go along or not", or of having
to hold myself apart from the group activity in order to be true to myself.
This triggers, for whatever reason (no one's business but mine), a certain
degree of discomfort in me, that I occasionally need to (and do) share about.
My own way is to share about it appropriately, and then leave it at that.

> My confusion has to do with why other people seem to feel so uncomfortable
> with what makes other members of the group comfortable.  If someone were

What makes one person comfortable, might make another person uncomfortable.
"Why" doesn't matter.  There's no right or wrong to it, it just is.  (Not
that you were trying to suggest otherwise.)

A group can't possibly spend all its time worrying about what might make
certain people comfortable or uncomfortable.  That's why the usual
principles of *A programs (especially the preamble and the traditions) are
so handy.  I believe that if *A principles and traditions are advertised
clearly (and in my experience, they are), and then followed rigorously, the
number of situations where a member is made to feel uncomfortable is
automatically lessened.  The remainder of situations can then be dealt with
if/as individual members bring them up.

*In my view*, saying the Lord's Prayer typically violates an *A program's
principle/tradition of "no denominational affiliation".  I will admit that
because I truly believe it is a violation of my particular program(s) as
advertised, I feel more entitled to share my experience of discomfort in
the group than I would otherwise.

Jeff
From: schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Blue Kangaroos
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:01:29 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

If I were desperate, could not stop drinking on my own, and I ventured into
a room full of individuals who had turned their will and their lives over
to a Blue Kangaroo and had successfully stopped drinking, changed their
lives for the better, and were obviously better in all aspects for it, YES
I would also try it. I would not ask why. I would wait for the analysis of
WHY for later. 

As it turns out, I have turned my life and will over to a higher power as I
understand 'it' and no it is NOT a Blue Kangaroo, however, I am MUCH BETTER
off for it. I have refined my understanding of this higher power over the
last three years of sobriety. I still listen to and emulate winners in the
process of this refinement.

Logical thinking does not solve a non-logical problem.  
Linear analysis does not solve non-linear problems.  
If you don't know what the nature of the problem is, you have a VERY hard
time using the proper analysis, given that you even know the analysis. And
this thing doesn't even lend itself to analysis.  Thinking myself sober
didnt work. Acting on other's suggestions did.

I cannot and wil not ever be able to paint a picture of my higher power
that anyone out there can understand. What I CAN tell you all is that I
stopped trying to do it myself and started trying what people with my
problem did SUCCESSFULY. Regardless of what my higher power is in
'actuality', the operational key here is that it ain't just ME!

If it takes a Blue Kangaroo to get onesself out of ones trapped, circular
thinking, and into action toward a solution, so be it.

Herb
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Why?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 17:45:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.080042.1215@sobeco.com> alawrenc@sobeco.com writes:
>Because life is not fair.

Once, in early recovery, I was talking about something that was
happening to me that was unfair (it really was).  One of the
other people came up to me after the meeting and said that the
word "fair" should only be used after the word "county".

Once I stopped using "fair" after the words "that is/isn't",
I found myself doing a whole lot less blaming.

-Ed
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:45:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.224048.27719@sobeco.com> alawrenc@sobeco.com writes:
>In <1992Sep30.043103.2890@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>
>>Yeah, I agree.  I used to just change the words around to suit myself
>>(Our creator, who art everywhere, hallowed be thy names...), but I
>>think the Serenity Prayer would be a much better choice.  Quite a few
>>groups use that one anyway.  Why use a prayer that has so many negative
>>connotations for so many people?
>
>Perhaps because if has so many positive connotations for the majority.
>I am not a religious or church going person, but my life is now based
>upon faith in a God I rever.  Each time I say the Lord's prayer, each
>line reminds of the principles I have adopted and the values I now hold
>precious.  I will never insist the my home group _must_ use this prayer
>(the topic comes up annually) by I would sincerely regret seeing it
>abandonned.

My life is based on my Higher Power too.  But if saying the Lord's
Prayer keeps even one person away from *A, I feel that it should
not be said.  It wouldn't be that much trouble to write a prayer
which covers the same material, but which wouldn't keep people out
of the program.  Too many people have been abused (usually by their
parents, but also by others) in the name of Christianity, and while
that abuse may not be what Christianity is supposed to be about,
people have a knee-jerk reaction to any whiff of Christianity.  And 
people are not going to be able to overcome this knee-jerk reaction
before they even get through their first *A meeting.  And since *A
is not a Christian program, I don't see why they should have to.


I understand your feelings about God.  Personally, I love my Higher
Power with all my heart, and I dedicated my life to doing hir will.
But if Christianity is going to keep people from finding their God
or their Higher Power or their spiritual awakening in whatever terms
they find it, then I say out with it.

Holly

-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Organization: Hardware Maintenance, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: Thu,  1 Oct 1992 09:53:49 -0400 
From: Dave McClory <dm0f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
	<1992Oct1.115233.9667@sobeco.com>

Sobrity, Is some times what I leave behind, not what I expect to have tommrow.

Thanks Andrew!

    -Dave
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Tradition One
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 15:33:29 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Much of what's been posted lately reminds me of Tradition #1..
"Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends
upon *A unity."  I'm glad that this tradition exists as I feel
it plays an important role in minimizing infighting and keeping 
the focus on recovery..at 12 step meetings that is.  

Tradition 10 also helps here.."*A has no opinion on outside issues; hence
the *A name ought never be drawn into public controversy."  This reminds
me to live and let live.  It also reminds me to let go of REACTING and
to focus my energy on the main issue..the one in the mirror.  
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: caRty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 01:53:56 GMT

In  <1992Sep30.224048.27719@sobeco.com>  alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence) writes:
> In <1992Sep30.043103.2890@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>
> >groups use that one anyway.  Why use a prayer that has so many negative
> >connotations for so many people?
>
> Perhaps because if has so many positive connotations for the majority.
> I am not a religious or church going person, but my life is now based
> upon faith in a God I rever.  Each time I say the Lord's prayer, each
> line reminds of the principles I have adopted and the values I now hold
> precious.  I will never insist the my home group _must_ use this prayer
> (the topic comes up annually) by I would sincerely regret seeing it
> abandonned.

So now we are back to the question of the majority creating discomfort
for the minority....how far it is right to go, or should the minority
just mellow out, or when do members of the majority side with the minority
out of respect and inclusiveness, or what happens when the minority
becomes the majority (as has happened re: smoking), what rules should
there be to protect the minority, etc., etc., etc.

Not that it's anything to "bicker" about here, and not that I'd want to
spout "answers"...  it just seems to be a perennial question in our society
(even more than in *A...)        :-(

Jeff
From: ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: 'Playing the Odds'
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:19:30 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1abe8jINN6uj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka) writes:

>Go with the numbers.  More people belong to AA than any other
>group.  And theists outnumber atheists by magnitudes.
>Play the odds.

This is absurd. More people belong to AA because AA has been around
a lot longer than the newer groups. And the idea of deciding the
question of God's existence by public opinion poll is plain silly.
Not to mention that belief doesn't work like that - you can't
come to believe something by deciding to do so. I'm reminded of
the logic of "Pascal's Wager": if you believe in God and he doesn't
exist, no harm done, but if you don't believe in God and he *does*
exist, you're screwed bigtime. Therefore, believe in God. Argggh!!!

Mark
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge)
Subject: Re: Forest for the trees
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:06:38 GMT

In article <1abe8jINN6uj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka) writes:
>
>In a previous article, maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) says:
>
>>I do not expect, realistically, to find the solution to my alcohol problem by
>>reading this newsgroup.  To be honest, I have no idea where the solution lies.
>>Should I trust AA?  RR?  Should I believe in a HP?  Should I follow the 12 
>>steps?  Should I believe in God?  ..............
>
>Go with the numbers.  More people belong to AA than any other
>group.  And theists outnumber atheists by magnitudes.
>Play the odds.
>
>
Yeah, that's right.  It's better to be sober and stupid than drunk.

It was the waning of my intellectual abilities that finally convinced me i had
a problem.  Now, from AA'ers out here in netland, i get the distinct impression
that i can't recover unless i give up my intellect and bow down before the
Twelve Step altar.  It's not worth it; i won't trade one slave-master for 
another.


Mark:  USENET isn't the place to come for help.  This is where we gather to
stroke our egos.  Go to an AA meeting (AAers can't all be as, ah, unpleasant as
the ones here), or look in the yellow pages under Alcoholism.

Anyone have any phone numbers or addresses for SOS or RR?  They aren't listed
in my local phone book.

-- 
allen@well.sf.ca.us
ethridge@bnr.ca
my opinions are my own
From: rons@soul.tv.tek.com (Ron Selberg)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Today
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:02:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix TV Products
Originator: rons@soul.tv.tek.com

Recovery is a way of life for those of us who have the opportunity to begin 
again. I have been given a second chance at life and I don't want to see if I
will have a third chance. 
Today, I know I won't pick up a drink.
I don't know about tomorrow.
Lets here it for today!!!
And ask for help tomorrow.

Love,

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: WHY???
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 06:26:16 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

Haven't we all experienced some similar difficulties?  WHY the heck are people 
arguing for/against the existance of God, whether AA/RR works, etc.  Don't we
(YOU) share common ground, as recovering addicts?

Hell if I know.  I dedicate my next beer to my lack of understanding.

But really, if two programs work, why not accept each for its benefits?

Where is the solution?  Is God waiting to give it to me, or is it something
beyond my comprehension, intangible, an illusion of this life that I pretend to
be real?

I know one thing-Many AA members and one RR member have offered help and
suggestions to me, and I appreciate this.  I don't know what direction to take,
and right now, I really don't care.  I am very drunk.

Well, sorry; I feel like an idiot posting here... 

Mark
From: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Lords Prayer
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:14:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 

Dear All,
       There seems to be much discussion and bickering of late
concerning of all things The Lords Prayer, Christianity, AA, RR,...
Why I Do Not Know. But, for further clarification:
      Refference to the Lords Prayer is in Mathew 6:9. It is usually
high-lighted in red as the words are spoken by Jesus as a lesson in how
to pray. Note: Jesus was still alive and well, Christianity or the
Church did not exist. The Religion or the New Covenant with God did
not start until after Christs death and resurection. Christ was speaking
to Hebrews, Romans & Etc which were commonly refered to by Hebrews as
Pagans. In short, this is not a prayer for CHRISTIANS.
      Blasphamy! Blasphamy! Thau art a Heritic they Screem!
Reality I say. The old covenant ends with the death of Christ and the
New covenant begins with his resurection. Ergo-The first book of the NEW
Testament should be ACTS. Mathew, Mark, Luke & John are good historical
reference, the best apparently that is available. But, they belong
neither to the Old or New testaments. Unless you wish to put them at the
end of the old as they refer to times mostly concerned with the life of
Jesus, the old covent was still technecally in effect.
      So, If ya wanna bicker - go ahead. But, your bickering about
an issue that makes no sense to bicker about. Those that choose to
follow either doctrine can further fight about which translation to use,
I personally have four. Plus misc. commentarys and assorted refferences.
There must be thousands of perspectives judgeing by the number of
religions and sub-denominations. They all have there own name for God,
they all have there own Church with there own schools and there own
methods. They all offer there own PHD courses, how to be a preacher in
10 easy lessons.
      The Bottom Line-In conclusion-or-The Gospal as written by BAB.
Every man/woman goes through this crissis at one point or another during
his/her lifetime. It has been a common thread of philosiphers for a
very, very long time. It is a personal experience. While another may
offer experience or insight the final out come is usually forth-comming
after a long personnal Quest involving work or action on the part of the
one searching for answers. I personally know of no indavidual struck
sober or divinely filled with all knowing spiritual enlightenment upon
sitting ones ass down at an AA meeting or RR meeting or any other
meeting. Maybe the Pentacostals know something I don't. In short:
Give yourselves a break, easy does it, KISS and DON'T DRINK, Go to A
MEETING.
                                                            BAB

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . No, I'm not shy - just poor and unemployed.
     
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 02:45:35 GMT

In  <20755@drutx.ATT.COM>  rnt@druwa.ATT.COM (Bob Thomas) writes:
> in article <96741@bu.edu>, ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) says:
>
> [A lot of stuff about AA meetings being too religious and
> too intolerant towards those who are not.]
>
> Mark,
>
> If you find the atmosphere unacceptable by all means go
> elsewhere.  If there isn't an elsewhere, create one.  That's

Bob, Mark made the point that people in early sobriety are generally
hardly in a position to do this.  However, for those in advanced recovery,
this can be a good suggestion.

> The AA meeting rituals along with the trite truisms that are
> mouthed have a calming effect on me.  If you find this
> stuff distasteful or personally degrading, then we don't
> agree about the AA experience.  But to recite a trite truism,
> "that's okay today" I'll "Live and Let Live" and try to
> maintain an "Easy Does It" attitude; we don't have to agree.

But the report is that many AA meetings themselves do not do that, *in the
particular regard* that Mark brought up, namely, (a) constant references
to G*d and (b) Lord's Prayer.

The constant references to G*d, OK, I can rationalize that (barely) by
saying that each listener can substitute their own HP ("G*d as we understood
Him" and all that).

But, the saying of the "Lord's Prayer" is something else.  Unlikely the
Serenity Prayer (which, although authored by a Christian theologian, is
quite non-denominational if you ask me), the "Lord's Prayer" is a
*specifically Christian* prayer.  When it is said, the Christian religion
is being observed.  If all the rest of us (pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, etc.)  wanted to attend a Christian event,
we would!  12-step meetings, by their own traditions ("spiritual not
religious" etc.)  are no places for this prayer, not even by group
conscience (because even if all those present agree to it, what about the
next time a visitor or newcomer walks in).

Jeff
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Step Ten
Date: 1 Oct 92 23:47:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.

Gee, whose personal inventory do I get to take?   ;-)

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
"One can aquire everything in solitude -- except character." 
                    -- Stendhal
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 04:41:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.212110.29435@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch) writes:
>In article <22494@venera.isi.edu> esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) writes:
>>My confusion has to do with why other people seem to feel so uncomfortable  
>>with what makes other members of the group comfortable.
>
>Think about it.  Haven't you ever been a minority of one?  The only X
>in a room full of Y's?  

Heh - I'm usually* a minority or one.  However, after so many years as a
female engineer, I'm used to it.  Which is a good thing, IMHO - just 
because everyone in the room is insisting that 2 + 2 = 5, doesn't mean
I'm going to doubt myself and believe it.  I forget sometimes that it
makes other people uncomfortable - I find myself wishing that they'd
just get over it.  Oh well...

BTW, this thread reminded me of one of my favorite books:  Richard Feynman
titled one volume of his autobiography "What do *You* Care What Other
People Think?"  I think it was something his former wife said to him
or something.

Holly
     
-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.recovery