From: niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma)
Subject: Re: Eck Wins MVP in Horrible Voting
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 15:46:18 GMT

In <21NOV199212140657@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> doctor8@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Jason Abner Miller) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.184840.9657@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes...
>>In article <BxzrFM.9tJ@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma) writes:

    [discussion regarding MVP balloting idiocy deleted]

>>MIKE DEVEREAUX FINISHED AHEAD OF FRANK THOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!

>	Damn straight.  Played great D, and was a huge Orioles Catalyst.
>Thomas had another generic Barry Bonds season, but is virtually unknown in
>the media and is a mediocre defensive 1B - not as valuable as a great CF.

  The fact that Thomas may or may not be known to the media really should be
irrelevant shouldn't it? What kind of justification is that for sportswriters?
"Oh, yeah his numbers are great, but I never heard of him so he can't be good"
doesn't cut it. If you're a sportswriter you probably should be familiar with
Frank Thomas because he's the best hitter in baseball, or damn close to it.
  I also don't think Devereaux is that well known either. Was he on the All
Star team before (I don't know but I don't think so)? Has he won a Gold Glove
before? No. I don't think he's actually as well known as Thomas, but that's
subjective anyways.
  Certainly Devereaux beats Thomas in defensive production. But Frank Thomas
CRUSHES Devereaux in offense. I mean Devereaux clicked on base at a mere .321
OBP while Thomas was in another stratosphere at .439. Incredibly huge difference
and Frank outslugged him .536 to .464. That's a pretty big margin too. Anyone
who can't see that Thomas is a vastly superior offensive player than Devereaux
must be blind, high and drunk. So that's what the mediots do in their spare
time 8-) ?
  Compare THomas to other first baseman in the A.L. McGwire's the only one that
can even hold Thomas jock. (actually that one may actually go to McGwire after
park adjustig stats, but past McGwire no one is within an eyelash). Who's
a better CF than Devereaux? Griffey and Gonzalez for sure. Puckett also. 
Lofton wasn't but was reasonably close. 
  You seem to ignore offense in this discussion: that's because Devereaux isn't
nearly as good as an offensice player; not in the same light year. It is
true that Devereaux has more defensive value than Thomas. But then again so
does Devon White. So does Rickey Henderson. So does Pat Borders. So does
3/4 of the regulars in the league. Denfense helps but offense is much more
important.

>>Rickey Henderson got *no* votes, while GEORGE BELL got some?

>	Why should Rickey get votes?  Did nothing this year.  Then again,
>neither did George Bell, so you're about right on this one.

 Rickey Henderson did nothing this year? Yeah I guess 207 times on base is 
nothing. Of course he only ate up 295 or so outs so he couldn't have been
any good. (Deveraux was on base 224 times, but made 481 outs). Rickey only 
stole 48 bases while being caught only 11 times. That's nothing. Rickey only
hit 15 HR; that's nothing. OK, now I see your point.......

>>Jack Morris finished ahead of Roger Clemens!!!!!

  This is among the dumbest things I've ever heard of in my life.

>>Rickey Henderson got no votes?

   That's because he did nothing....(extreme sarcasm intended)

>>Shane Mack got no votes.

  It's too bad because he did better than Mike Devereaux this year.

>>Edgar Martinez came in behind Cecil Fielder!

>	Why on EARTH did Cecil get votes???  Much as I like The Fat One, he's
>useless when he doesn't hit 40 HRs, and come on?  9th in the voting?  For
>WHAT?

  I guess all of his whining the past two years gave him sympathy points;
he didn't even deserve that much last year so we shouldn't feel any sorrow.


>>Juan Gonzalez got more votes than Ken Griffey.

>	Griffey didn't have a GREAT year, while Juan Gone! captured the media
>with his 43 Deep Drives.  Another media-influenced vote, although not really
>a bad choice.

  Griffey had a MUCH better campaign than Gonzalez. Take away his 43 HR and
Gonzalez played very poorly, while Griffey excelled in most phases of the game.
Even with Gonzalez 43 HR he was still outslugged by Jr. Throw in the fact
that Griffey hit 48 points higher in BA than Gonzalez, drew more walks and
played superior defense then you've got a better player than Gonzalez.

>>John Olerud got *no* votes; MIKE BORDICK got some.

>	Olerud should have gotten as least as many as Bordick

  I will personally assasinate anyone in the media if they voted for Don
Mattingly ahead of John Olerud. Cecil ahead of John Olerud is a pretty stupid
joke as well. John's my favorite player so I naturally don't assert that he's
better than Joe Carter, but many on the net have done it. So I guess he       
should've gotten third in the MVP vote eh 8-)? 

>>Albert Belle got more votes than Lou Whitaker.
>>Mickey Tettleton didn't get any votes; Pat Listach did.

>	That's cause Listach had a good year.
        
  How exactly did Listach have a good year while Tettleton did not? This is
probably the most foolish part of the entire voting! Tettleton was on base
227 times this year while Listach was on 223 times. Tettleton had a superior
OBP (.379 to .352) so obviously he's making fewer outs. Listach, of course
was a productive base stealer though, 54 SB, 18 CS which accounts for about
6 runs of offense added because of this. Tettleton had 0 SB-6CS so he cost
Sparky about 3 runs of offense. So the stolen bases cost Tettleton about
9 runs on Listach. 
  Tettleton hit 31 more HR than Listach. He hit 6 more doubles. Listach hit
6 more 3B than Tettleton. Who do you think is the better offensive player?
  Listach was slightly above average in terms of SS in range factor (for
whatever that's worth). Tettleton had the best catcher ERA on Detroit (which
isn't too good because all of the Tigers pitchers basically are AAA pitchers)
and threw out a slightly above average percentage of runners trying to steal.
Tettleton plays a tougher defensive position than Listach. By the data we
are given Tettleton is the better defensive player. Granted, it is pretty close
and the stats aren't always the truth for defense, but Listach couldn't be  
a whole lot more valuable than Tettleton on defense, if he is at all.
  Tettleton is far and away, by miles and miles, the best catcher in the league.
For offense anyways....his defense looks good too. Tettleton is probably the
clearest selection of a player at his position in the American League last year.
Visquel, Grebeck (in limited PT) and Fryman were all comparable to Listach
last year.
  How can Listach be considered a better player in 1992 than Tettleton?

>>If Eckersley can win, where was Duane Ward in the voting?

  Probably with the Roberto Hernandez's of the world.

>>Mediot is too kind a word.  Moron would be closer, but that would be
>>insulting to morons.  These people don't have brains that large.  Maybe
>>more of the size of dead frogs.  Bowls of Jello?

>	Remember, a "Mediot" doesn't drool over OBP.  They see intangibles
>as more important to the team as RC/27.  The voting is not as accurate
>as it should have been, and many sentimental favorites (i.e. Cecil and ACK!
>Morris) did better than true stars, but as long as Rickey Henderson got
>0 votes, I consider it a year well done.

  This may be the gyst of the argument. What I am saying is that the mediots
SHOULD realize that OBP counts more than any single piece of offensive data
you can find (except maybe RC or something like that). I can certainly
understand why they voted as they did (in a nutshell, because they are really,
really stupid) but I can't see how they can justify it.
  In the case of Tettleton vs. Listach, I see absolutely NO WAY that this is
justified. Any possible angle you could take on it puts Tettleton in front.
If anyone still thinks that BA is as important as OBP, you should go back to 
watching some other sport.

						Gord Niguma
						(fav player: John Olerud)

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