Newsgroups: sci.physics
Subject: Re: Religion and Physics
From: seth@physc1.byu.edu
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:22:55 -0700
Distribution: world
Organization: Brigham Young University

I would just like to add my $.02 here to this thread. I have followed it for
several weeks, and have found it to be very interesting. To those who will not
allow themselves to believe in God, you have your freedom of choice, and I 
recognize that none of us who do believe in God will be able to convince you
otherwise. I personally do believe in God, and I also "believe" in Physics. I
will say right up front that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints. I attend Brigham Young University, and know just about
every faculty member in the physics department. I am constantly amazed at the
brilliance of most of these professors, and also am constantly comforted in
the strength of conviction and faith in God that they live by every day. To
say that God definitely does not exist and that faith in God and practice of
scientific reason are definitely not compatible is to say that you believe
that you are a god unto yourself. You people who claim that it is impossible
that there is a God because one cannot devise an experiment that "proves" that
there is a God are funny, because you cannot devise an experiment or "proof"
that there is NOT a God. You can state your disbelief in God, and you can
list a thousand reasons for it, and you can talk about it for years if you so
desire, but not a single one of you will EVER prove that God does not exist. I
have one question now. Does this knowledge threaten any of you? Do any of you
feel some sort of anger or resentment that you CANNOT "prove" that there is
not God? 
	Now, instead of trying to "prove" God's existence to you, I will relate
and instance that occurred earlier in my life. I was in High School, and I
had a conversation one afternoon after school with a girl who I quite liked
about religion. She asked me to prove the existence of God. I thought I was
sufficiently versed in reason and philosophy that I could prove it to her, so
I tried. She successfully countered all the "arguments" I made, and after a
while I was quite bewildered. While riding my bike home afterwards I started
crying, because my faith had been threatened. I had accepted as fact that God
existed, but now I couldn't prove it. I couldn't prove it to this girl, and I
now realised that I couldn't prove it to myself. I was scared. I thought about
this all the way home, and tried to remember all the things I had learned from
my church experiences and chiefly from my studies of the scriptures. I knew
that I had seen many good things in my church and in my family. I had had 
many experiences that had stregthened my faith. I had seen how much good was
done by believing in certain religious principles. I also remembered a verse
in the Book of Mormon that went like this " ... wherefore, dispute not because
ye see not, for ye recieve no witness until after the trial of your faith."
(Ether 12:6) I decided that I would have faith on God and continue to believe
in the things which I had been taught. I would continue to believe in Jesus
Christ, that He suffered to cleanse me from sin, and that his Atonement was
neccesary for me and the whole world. I knew I could not argue it rationally,
but I made THE CONSCIOUS DECISION to not give up on God just because I could
not argue on His behalf. I decided to try and let GOD PROVE HIMSELF TO ME. I
decided that He has told the world time and time again that He will reveal 
Himself to us through the manifestations of the Holy Spirit AFTER we excercised
some FAITH in him. You cannot have the attitude that says "Well, if someone
will prove that God exists, then I will believe and do His will", because God
will only reveal himself to those who excercise faith in Him. John wrote this
most poignantly in John 7:17 
	"If any man will do His will, he shall know of the
	doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself"

And again this point is taught by John in John 14: 21
	"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is
	that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of
	my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself
	to him."

I know that there are many poeple who have posted here about this thread who
believe in God who can attest as to the truth of this. I would guess that there
are many different denominations represented by the people who have written
in "support" of God in this thread, but most will probably agree that a 
"witness" as to the truth of God's existence comes AFTER one has obeyed the
commandments of the Lord and excercised faith in Him.
	Ever since the day I made my decision, I have recieved a witness from
God through the Holy Spirit many many times that He does in fact exist. I have
had my faith strengthened in so many ways. I have been rewarded for my faith
by the sweet knowledge of my Redeemer Jesus Christ. I can not scientifically 
expound on the mechanism for these witnesses, but I can testify to you that
they did occur. You may not believe this, and if so, that is your choice.  
	Some of you may say that I am being close-minded because I decided to
trust in God even though I was confused because I could not "prove" that he
existed, even to myself. I don't believe so. I knew that I could either choose
to stop believing in Him on the basis that I knew of no rational proof of His
existence, or I could continue to believe in Him and do my best to live
according to His will, and see if He would manifest Himself unto me as was
promised in the scriptures. I knew full well both of the options. I made the
personal choice to continue in my faith. It must be a personal choice for
every one. That is precisely why I know I cannot prove Him to any of you who
don't believe. I know that you will not believe in Him until you quit trying to
convince yourself that he definitely does NOT exist, and do what it takes to
find out whether he does exist or not; namely, obeying His will and excercising
even a particle of faith in Him. One thing I can promise though; If you DO
excercise faith in Him and do your best to obey His will, and keep His
commandments, you WILL recieve this witness. I submit this without "proof", 
however it is an experiment that IS duplicatable by every one of you, if you
will but make the decision to try.
	Some of you will say that I "suggest" to myself that God exists, and
thereby "convince" myself. What are YOU suggesting to YOURSELF by saying this
about me? This is a rhetorical question. 
	If any of you are offended by such "blatant" expressions of faith in
God on a Physics usegroup, then you have every right to simply type "dir"
anytime you want and go on to the next article. This usegroup is a physics
usegroup, but I think that this means that if physicists want to talk about
their faith and their science and how they relate, then I feel that it is
entirely appropriate.
	One last thing. I have done LOTS of thinking about my religion and 
LOTS of thinking about physics, and I personally have to confess that I see
absolutely no conflict. I see no contradiction. I see how my faith and my
religion complement each other perfectly. Sure, there are some questions that
I can not answer, and I know that I will learn many things for the first time
when I die and meet God face to face, but that does not mean I see
contradictions. On the contrary, my faith allows me to understand many aspects
of physics and science better than I otherwise would, and believe it or not my
understanding of science actually allows me to understand aspects of my faith
that I otherwise wouldn't. I love to read the writings of Paul. I love to study
and see the concepts he taught manifest themselves in my life and the lives of
others who believe. I love James, and Hebrews, Romans, Corinthians, etc. I
love to try to glean the truths of my existence from these pages and the pages
of the Book of Mormon. I have learned so much through study of God's written 
revelations, and can attest to you that although I love physics and science in
general, there is more more truth in just about any one page of the holy
scriptures than in all the proofs, dissertations, hypotheses, etc. in the whole 
scientific world, from the beginning right on down through this very second.
	If any of you would like to talk more about this with me in private
 please feel free to drop me an email message. I also expect to be "flamed"
 severely by the
self-proclaimed athiests here on the net. By submitting this article I have
opened myself up for public criticism, but I don't care. If you agree with
what I have said, please feel free to post it on the net. Or, if you do not
agree with what I said, please feel free to disagree openly or even flame me
on the net.

Seth Leigh
BYU Physics Dept.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)