From: johnsd2@vccsouth07.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac (Again) was "Need to convin
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccsouth07.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:32:08 GMT

In article p3bbb@rpi.edu, gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>> >johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>> >> wrob@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert Wong) writes:

[deletia- PS level 2]
>> What I meant was "a PostScript  printer".
>> 
>> That is a printer that understands postscript, rather than having
>> the computer do it for it. Would this be upgraded?
>
>As noted later in my comments, you can't very well to postscript level 2  
>stuff to a postscript printer which does not understand postscript level 2  
>(or at least, NeXT can't cause that to happen...).  The NeXT still does  
>postscript level 1 to printers which don't understand level 2.  NeXT users  
>do this at RPI for instance.

Let me phrase it this way: I have a level 2 EPS file. Can I print
it to a level 1 Postscript based printer with a NeXT?

[deletia- localization support]
>> Then what IS the point?
>> 
>> You can USE any language you want on any Mac (so long as its Roman
>> character set based, :/ ). But the menus, buttons, etc, are handled
>> by the apps; Thus you need a a language-specific version of the
>> app. (this goes for the Finder too, as you have noticed)
>
>When a NeXT user tells you that the NeXT supports multiple languages, the  
>point *they* are making is that a single system can let different users  
>select the language of their choice.  Ie, you don't have to install the  
>"german system" if you're prefer to have menu items in german.  There's one  
>system, plus language packages that you install.

I hashed this out with someone via email.

The way it now looks, what the NeXT gives you is the ability to switch
on the fly (if your apps were written in the approrpiate languages of
course); this is something the Mac can't really do, but its not very
important on a single-user system. (good fer demos tho)

>That is the point the *NeXT* user is trying to make.  The point you are  
>countering with is really nothing more exciting than the news that the Mac  
>system includes support for different fonts.  However, any one system from  
>Apple came as a single language.

Right. More or less. Actually, there is more to it than that
on the Mac but that's not very important.

>> System 7.1 added the ability to do this same trick with non-roman
>> langauges too.
>
>There were non-Roman languages in the Mac world before system 7.1 (and  
>before system 7, for that matter).  The difference is that it was a system  
>geared for that language, as opposed to a user-settable preference for a  
>single (multi-language) system.

We are not talking about the same neat trick. I meant mixing them
up all higgledy piggledy. Sticking english text into Arabic text
for instance.

[deletia- Not switching on the fly]
>> I do not see how it is usefull to be able to do this. Nor do I see
>> how you can justify discounting the support on this thing alone.
>
>Perhaps I'm phrasing my argument poorly.  It's not that I claim that no  
>version of Macintosh system software could print an "a" with an umlaut over  
>it before system 7.1.

That's what it sounded like origionally. I have since been enlightened,
as they say.

>The point being made is that NeXT 3.0 supports multiple languages in a  
>single system, as a user-settable preference item.  This does not discount  
>the kind of multi-language support that the Mac has had for many years, it's  
>just saying that NeXT has this added feature.  My understanding is that  
>System 7.1 (with worldscript) is supposed to have the very same feature, so  
>again I'm not saying that NeXT is doing something stunning that Apple has  
>never thought of.

System 7.1 does not have this feature.

It can let you USE multiple script systems, but it does not  translate
menus or anything liek that. ONLY the USER uses them, not the apps.

The NeXT is doing something the Mac can't do. It's just not a very big
something (unless you are multi-user, like the NeXT say..)

>It's just a neat capability, and one that did not exist on the official  
>Apple system software until recently.  While *you* may not see how this is  
>useful, for some people it is very desirable.  There are people at RPI who  
>have three different system folders on their Mac, for instance, because they  
>want to do things in English, Chinese, and Japanese.  If you don't, that's  
>fine.  For people who do, things like NS3.0 and (what I understand of)  
>WorldScript are very welcome developments.

Do they actually want their menus and buttons translated? That's what the
NeXT is doing (among other things);  THAT'S the thing which seems minor to me.

>(in my case I'd actually be more interested in English, German, and Hebrew,  
>but that's just my interests...  Maybe Spanish too, if I could remember my  
>high-school spanish).

Ah, but do you wish to read your app buttons, etc in those languages?
Or just the one your most proficient in?

[deletia- more stuff I learned in email anyway]

>> >Both NeXTSTEP 3.0 and WorldScript Mac System 7.1 support multiple
>> >languages, in the sense that it can be a user preference instead
>> >of being a decision which is made only at installation time.
>> 
>> Where is this information from? I never heard this about 7.1. Thought
>> it did this part the same way 7.0 did (one main langauge system, plus
>> many secondary systems)
>
>Hmm, when worldscript was explained to me, the above is pretty much exactly  
>how it was described.  I don't have worldscript to say for sure though (even  
>though I do have system 7.1 installed, it seems that the worldscript stuff  
>doesn't come on the regular system 7.1 installation floppies).

It doesn't. There are good technical reasons (concerning resource forks)
why Mac apps can't be easily updated to have MULTIPLE languages
SIMULTANEOUSLY present. So I think I cen be pretty confident that
WorldScript doesn't do what you seem to be thinking.

>Maybe someone who has Worldscript could jump into this and tell us if I'm  
>all confused about how that works.

That would be a real good idea.

>In any case, when a NeXT user says the system now supports multiple  
>languages, they are refering to this ability to switch languages as a  
>preference item.  What you are countering with is certainly an important  
>feature, but it's not the same one that they (we, I guess) are refering to.   
>The support *you* are refering to was also available in earlier versions of  
>NeXTSTEP, it isn't the feature added in NS3.0.

I know that... now.

I still dont see how the NeXT supports non-Roman scripts tho. Like,
Chinese (writing backwards is fun) or Japanes (multi-byte character
sets) or Arabic (context-dependant fonts! fun fun!)

My email coversation led me to believe the NeXT didn't cover
this things. Is this so?

These things WorldScript is supposed to handle somehow, so you can
use them together.

At least that's my understanding.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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