HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: frank@maxwell.concordia.ca ( Frank Maselli )
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Message from Concordia University
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:20:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal Quebec

On behalf of the Rector and Vice-Chancellor of Concordia University
I am posting the following message:


=================================================================

Subject:        Message from Dr. Patrick Kenniff, Rector and Vice-
                Chancellor  of Concordia University in response to
                queries with regard to Dr. Fabrikant


I  am  taking  the unusual step of posting a message on this medium
because  it  has  come  to  my  attention that the  allegations  of
scientific  misconduct  raised  by V.I. Fabrikant  continue  to  be
addressed  on  this  system and because I wish to inform you of the
tragic events of 24 August 1992 at our University.

V.I. Fabrikant, an Associate Professor at Concordia University, has
been  charged  with three counts of first-degree murder, two counts
of  attempted  murder, two  counts  of  hostage-taking  as  well as
uttering  death  threats and using a firearm in the commission of a
crime.  Three  of  our  colleagues are dead, one remains in serious
condition  and  the fifth is recovering from a gunshot wound to the
leg. The  families  of  the deceased and the injured as well as the
entire University community are in a  state of  shock and mourning.

The   Vice-Rector,  Academic   conducted   an   inquiry   into  the
numerous  allegations  he  raised  and  reported  to  the  Board of
Governors  in  March  1992  that  they  were  unfounded.   However,
with the continuance of Dr. Fabrikant's allegations, the University
will undertake a further review with dispatch. Let us not, however,
lose  sight of who the victims are in this tragedy. There can be no
excuse nor justification for the brutal and senseless actions of 24
August 1992.

Patrick Kenniff
Rector & Vice-Chancellor
Concordia University

==================================================================
-- 
Frank Maselli
Assistant Director, Customer Relations
Computing Services
Concordia University
From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Stigma was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:07:00 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep15.164555.29984@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, yjj@janus.ctr.columbia.edu (Yuan Jiang) writes...
>> 
>There is no reason to use current wrongs to compensate the past wrongs,
>and there is no reason to commit this wrong in order to correct other wrongs.



Well, I guess that this is what this discussion is all about.  Some of us
don't believe that this is a wrong.  (See multitudes of prvious posts).
Others do feel it is wrong.  Beyond this, though, many people have used the
phrase "to compensate past wrongs."  That is not the goal of affirmative
action as espoused by numerous people and institutions.  It's goal is to
instill in an instituion an awareness of the problem of racial and gender
discrimination and to make some attempt at giving underrepresented groups
a chance that they normally would not have.  As I said, this has been
lengthily stated in many of my posts, in many of Jay Schieber's posts, and
the posts of others.  

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:48:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.173403.4132@Princeton.EDU>, lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer) writes:
> 
> But please remember that women suffer stresses that men don't experience
> which affect the perceptions of their ability.  
> 
> A woman enters graduate school with training in area X.  She takes
> the seminar from a professor in that field.  The professor invites
> her to his house to borrow a book, and he answers the door wearing
> nothing but a bathrobe. 

  This is not something that is unique to women, though I'm sure that
women suffer it more often.  Hint: the professor and the student do not 
have to be of differing sexes for sex to make an appearance.  I know of 
more than one case.

> Another example.  It happens often that, in order to avoid scenes like
> the one described above, women students will gravitate to a professor
> who is very traditional and follows the rules, 
> 
> Last, I think that it affects a woman's performance when she goes
> to graduate school and doesn't feel accepted and supported.  
>  
> ability.  When I went to Caltech there were groups of men in
> my department who were cheating on take-home exams, i.e. they
> were collaborating.  On the surface it looked as though I was
> achieving less, but in reality I refused to participate in what
> they were doing. 

  All of these issues are problems for lots of people, they don't divide 
down the line of men and women.  Professors have favorites, students seek 
safety and thus attain obscurity, students generally don't feel accepted 
and supported at graduate school (and hence their performance suffers), 
marks do not reflect capability, etc.   In my limited experience, 
a student's ability to withstand these stresses is largely a personal 
thing.  I don't know of any women that have dropped out of CS here at
Waterloo, but I certainly know of several men that did.

  Would you say that there are some positive benefits accruing from being 
a woman in graduate school?

-Darrell.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.canada
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: RFD: soc.intense.study.of.fabrikant
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:36:29 GMT


He has had more traffic than most other groups on the net. He deserves
his own group. Not bitching mind you.


-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:27:27 GMT

In article <4866@daily-planet.concordia.ca> mjassels@cs.concordia.ca (Michael Assels) writes:
>Perhaps I'm just too optimistic about human nature, but I'm still ready to
>hope that there are some disgruntled academics out there who will pursue
>their grievances to a satisfactory conclusion without resorting to bloody
>murder.  Surely there are some civilized victims of corruption out there
>whose cases deserve attention.  Can't we redirect our sympathy their way?

In Fabrikan't case, the lack of grievance resolution led to a horrible
conclusion.  In most cases, the causes of grievances and their lack
of resolution results in many disgruntled, depressed, unproductive
people and unpleasant feuding.  From what I have seen, this occurs
more often than not in academic departments, although less in
engineering than in the humanities.  

One problem is that there seem to be no means for grievances to
be resolved.  It's often hopeless to complain because the person
who files the complaint will only be the target of revenge later
outside the domain of the grievance.  Second, filing a complaint
can only escalate a bad situation.  By forcing people to publicly
take sides, the person with the grievance can cause abandonment
by those who are trying privately to be sympathetic.

I really don't have answers.  I'm looking for answers.  I wish
there were constructive things people could do to lessen any
tensions and hostilites.  I wonder whether there are techniques to
create less fighting.  Often it is possible for two people to
be mature enough to defuse a situation in the interest of maintaining
a better climate.  However, there are some people in academia who
are compulsive trouble-starters, who have a need to beat up on
their colleagues, and to attack their morale.  It's very hard,
if not impossible, to defeat them when such people get together in
a group to carry out their games.  In industry, the company
has to make a profit or else the company will fail, so that
places a limit on such things.  There are people in academia
who don't care if the productivity of a whole department or
program goes down.  


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 00:26:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep12.165259.26019@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.155055.22185@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>
>>Of course, they are usually
>>very enthusiastic about exceptional candidates, but they may be even more
>>enthusiastic in the case of women.
>
>This sentence is typical of the attitude that I find so disturbing
>in senior faculty members. They dont say: we would like to be 
>gender-neutral in our hiring practices, but unfortunately 
>affirmative-action directives instruct us otherwise. Rather, they
>sound so excited and enthusiastic, that  you cannt miss their social
>agenda.


Hold on.  The mission of the universities is not to provide equal
employment opportunities to the population with a Ph.D.

It's only right that when university administrators look at recruitment
policies, they keep in mind what the primary mission of the university
is.

When only 15 or 20% of our output (at the undergrad level) is female,
as it it typical in engineering, there is surely something
wrong.  If we were adequately tapping into the potential that's
out there, both male and female, we presumably would produce
graduates of a better quality (or in larger numbers).

Thus it clearly makes sense to try and make the institution more
hospitable to women.  And one of the most obvious things we can
do is to provide our female students with female role models in
the faculty.

Luc B
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:29:19 GMT

From article <5507@dove.nist.gov>, by gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan
):
[...]
>
> Let's add to the list.
>
> Why should young people today in the US have to pay for a national
> debt that was incurred by their elders in Congress and the White
> House? I say, let's default on it rather than pay it.

Many other countries have done this.  Why don't we?  Because it would probably
end us costing the US more at this time.

>
> Why should children of poor people have to grow up in poverty just
> because their parents failed to get rich? (And why should the children
> of the middle class have to grow up less than spectacularly wealthy?)

That's the basis for Socialism or Communism, isn't it?

A 100% inheritance tax would also solve the problem, few want this.

>
> Why should young people today have any interest in cleaning up the
> pollution that their elders released into the environment?

Because cleaning it up brings in more benefits than it costs?  If it doesn't,
you can bet it won't get cleaned up.

In these three examples the young are doing things in their own interest.
They aren't (just) being good samaritans.

>
> (etc.)
>
> In other words, can we ask the question differently? I like to think
> in these terms: would it be nice to have more women in science? My
> answer: yes. Then there is a question of the best means to get more
> women into scientific careers.

It might be nice to have more women, but this comes in far, far, below
bringing in the most competant.

SEH
Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.
Date: Saturday, 12 Sep 1992 20:55:50 IST
From: <CERLPDR@TECHNION.BITNET>
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Affirmative action does not mean quotas

    The apparent definition of affirmative action as people seem to be using it
is incorrect. Affirmative action does not mandate quotas, rather it sets
goals. This distinction is important. A quota is a mandatory allocation based
on given criteria. A goal is simply a non-binding target that may or not be
met.

    The intention is that all other things being equal, race or gender may
be a factor in a hiring decision. In other words, given two equally qualified
candidates, race or gender may be used to make a final selection. It certainly
doesn't mean that an unqualified applicant should be hired.

    If a department is mandating quotas your beef is with the particular
university not with affirmative action guidelines.


                                 John Tolman
From: slim@tazdevil.llnl.gov (Scott Whitman)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: New Topic
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:54:07 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Massively Parallel Computing Initiative, LLNL


Well, I accepted a post-doc position here at LLNL in 1990 and started
in early 1991.  At the time, I had never heard of anyone doing a
post-doc in CS but now it seems to be a trend.  I originally had 3
offers (one of which was this post-doc) but I turned down the other
two since I thought I would be able to do more research in this position.
I have seen several recent postings for post-doc positions.  Actually,
I beleive there is a parallel programming post-doc position here at
the lab, you might want to give personnel a call (510) 422-0808.
Also, ICASE at NASA Langley is a good place (don't have the phone
number at the moment) and I've heard IBM TJ Watson may have positions.
Salary for industry post-docs is better than academia, by the way.
But, these positions really are just a way station until you find a
full time position.  Because of the glut, I think the only academic
positions available are to those who have published alot and the
school really wants *you* for your particular skills.  The job market
has definitely gotten worse in my opinion since 1989.  But, by
networking, you can still find jobs out there.  I've even seen Ph.D.
positions posted on misc.jobs.offered.
--------------------------------------------------------
Scott R. Whitman, Ph.D.		slim@llnl.gov
LLNL, L-416, P.O. Box 808	(510) 294-4109
Livermore, CA 94550		
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:04:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.165734.11038@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, me@csri.toronto.edu (Daniel R. Simon) writes...
>In article <10SEP199219073072@jetson.uh.edu> schieber@jetson.uh.edu (Schieber, Jay D.) writes:
>>Finally, given the dubious criteria that are often used to 
>>hire candidates, and the very large number of complicated
>>criteria that are valid (filling "holes" in research area
>>or "teaching", exciting new collaborations, etc), using the
>>two above-mentioned criteria in addition to the others seems
>>perfectly valid to me.  In fact, I would say if you wish to
>>minimize criteria which you feel are "poor", I would 
>>suggest looking at all of them first.  I suspect that by
>>the time you do away with those which are worse, this last
>>one will pretty much take care of itself.
>>
>>Note that I have not even referred to the help such a criterion
>>has in reducing the power of the "old boys network".
> 
>Naturally.  After all, if the hiring process is such a messy, fuzzy
>business, full of "poor" and "dubious criteria", then why should
>favoritism towards members of the "old boys network" be of any
>particular concern?  Perhaps some women and minorities might get
>shortchanged--but, then, isn't it all, as one poster put it, just a
>"crap shoot", anyway?  True, the "old boys network" might occasionally
>prefer a well-connected white male or two--but if the alternative
>selection process is so full of "complicated" and "dubious" criteria
>that a bit of extra racism and sexism isn't even worth complaining
>about, then it's hard to see why the criteria used by the Guardians of
>the White Male Power Structure (ability to fraternize with "the boys",
>and so on) are any less "valid".  So why not just let them *keep*
>their "power", instead of going to such infernal trouble to "reduce"
>it?
> 
> 
>Thus does the logic of "remedial" preferential treatment defeat
>itself.

Frankly, I find the above argument to fall of its own weight without
refutation.  The point is simple: the current system is flawed, and
can be improved.  If you do not wish to work on it, do not.  I find
AA to be a perfectly reasonable attempt to improve the situation.

For the record, I am not referring to "remedial preferential treatment".





> 
> 
>"There *is* confusion worse than death"		Daniel R. Simon
>			     -Tennyson		(me@theory.toronto.edu)
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions (Repost #2)
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:03:39 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization

In article <12SEP199215310242@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.165259.26019@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes...
>>In article <1992Sep12.155055.22185@news.acns.nwu.edu> len@schur.math.nwu.edu (Len Evens) writes:
>>>In article <11SEP199209542037@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>> 
>>>Of course, they are usually
>>>very enthusiastic about exceptional candidates, but they may be even more
>>>enthusiastic in the case of women.
>> 
>>This sentence is typical of the attitude that I find so disturbing
>>in senior faculty members. They dont say: we would like to be 
>>gender-neutral in our hiring practices, but unfortunately 
>>affirmative-action directives instruct us otherwise. Rather, they
>>sound so excited and enthusiastic, that  you cannt miss their social
>>agenda.
>> 
>
>What evidence are you using?  Have you seen
>the dossiers?  Have you read the recommendation letters?
>Have you interviewed the candidates?  Until you do, it seems
>that you are assuming that they are less qualified because
>they are a woman (or a black).  This says that we have a 
>long way to go before we can drop everything and assume
>that things will be conducted in a race or gender neutral
>manner.  
>

If you read carefully the posting you are responding to, you
could save large part of what you said. I was responding to
the wording of a poster who used the word _enthusiastc_ in
reference to a candidate, where excessive enthusiasm was based on
the genes of the candidate rather then her qualifications.
What do you want me to bring evidence for ? It was a description
by a member of a search committee. 

Incidentally, your assertion that preference in faculty hiring would
bring gender-blind hiring in general is far from being uncontested. There
were many books and studies, some of them by members of the "protected"
minorities which claim the opposite. I will be glad to provide
you references if you so wish.

Since your asserstion is far from being universally accepted,
the enthusiasm of senior faculty members for complying 
with affirmative action directives is based on their political
convictions rather than on professional grounds. University
professors were elected to do a professional job and not political.
If you like to influence political decisions than explain your
position to the taxpayer and get elected to a political office.
What I dont like is that members of a professional organisation
are using their jobs to promote political convictions.

>Joseph S. Merola
>Department of Chemistry
>Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU) 
>

Dov
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,soc.culture.asian.american
From: lseltzer@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Linda A. Seltzer)
Subject: Re: Asian-American success (was Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:14:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.031350.11885@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>Jews were either prohibited from or allowed in restricted number from 
>univeristies in Europe. Some Ivy Leage banned them in the US (e.g. Yale). 

It's clear that the people who have benefited most from the civil
rights laws are the white men who came from backgrounds that were not
Anglo-Saxon.  It used to be that men who were Jewish, Italian-American,
Polish-American, or Irish could not break into the Anglo Saxon grip
on the best positions in academia and industry, and the civil rights
laws changed that tremendously.  The comment about an unusual name,
which was described here a few days ago by a man with an Italian
surname, was a remnant of the old type of discrimination.  For example,
it certainly represented a big change in the 1970's when Martin
Meyerson became the president of Penn.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP (Sean Edward Hillyard,F7 Clark,50649,)
Subject: Re: Hiring quotas and faculty positions
Originator: hillyard@msc2.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:22:52 GMT

From article <11SEP199216150518@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu>, by merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (J
OSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU):
[...]
>
> The other funny thing here is the concept that you are being screwed
> for the sins of your ancestors.  I guess that is one way of looking at
> it, but then you are getting screwed for lots of sins of your
> ancestors.  Maybe you would have gotten that job if your parents had
> been richer and you could have afforde to go to Harvard instead of
> X State. To me, the concept of affirmative action is not to punish
> the majority for the sins of their ancestors, but to help those who
> have not had access to all of the opportunities that the majority
> had.  There was an excellent post here today that spoke to that issue.
>
> Joseph S. Merola
> Department of Chemistry
> Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)
>


The big difference is that affirmative action discriminates on the basis
of sex or race, something that is supposed to be a bad thing.  If I don't
win the lottery, or am not born rich, well, them's the breaks.  Being white
instead of black is not supposed to make a difference according to the US
government.  So its quite expected, and not especially 'funny' that people
take exception to it.  If it was affirmative action for the poor, or veterans,
or various other things there would be fewer objections.

SEH
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers