From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Negotiated behavior as weapon?
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:20:43 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <2699@cronos.metaphor.com> falcao@felix.metaphor.COM (Ronnie Falcao) writes:

>I hope I've misunderstood what you meant.
>
>	- Ronnie

Yes, I think you have.

>>Although one cannot compare this with the trauma of rape, it is also
>>true that when women use the conditional rationing of sexual favors as
>>a means to control the behavior of men--as our "glorious" culture
>>prescribes--female sexuality is also being used as a weapon.  To me,
>>this is one of the legitimate grievances men do have.  But please note
>>clearly that I am talking about _behavior_ sanctioned by _conventional_
>>_women's_culture,_ not _women._
>
>Weapons are used to injure people or threaten them with injury
>so as to force them to do things involuntarily.

This is the key.  Unless you've been taken advantage of or emotionally
abused by a woman, the above paragraph would be easy to misunderstand.
But there are women out there who make false promises, and who take
advantage of men by rewarding self-destructive or other-destructive
behavior with sex.  Just as when a woman falls in love, sex with the
beloved is precious.  So it is with men.  And just as men can abuse the
preciousness of womens' feelings to compromize or humiliate, women
can do the same to men.  And some do.

>Controlling how and when someone expresses their own sexuality
>does not seem like using a weapon to me.  As far as I can tell,
>you're talking about a negotiated relationship.  Would you also
>call the male side of the negotiation (conditional rationing of
>certain behaviors to control the sexual behavior of women)
>using a weapon?

It depends on how it's done--the attitude behind it.  When it's done
to protect oneself, that's fair.  When it's done to create pain,
humiliate, or harm another, that's not fair.

>Although I can understand that normally socialized males
>may be frustrated that normally socialized females aren't as
>sexually available as they'd like them to be, is this so
>very different from the frustration that normally socialized
>females feel about the emotional unavailability of normally
>socialized males?

I guess my feeling on this is that we need to work on both sources of
frustration.  This isn't good for either women or men.  But it is good
that you are drawing the clear distinction between normal frustration
and criminal behavior that I failed to make.  I didn't mean to suggest
that men were entitled to rape, only that men were entitled to go off
by themselves and discuss their frustrations and gripes.

Insofar as you classify this frustration men feel as "normal," and
place it in the same class as that of women's normal frustration with
men, I don't have a problem with what you are saying.  Pehaps I worded
my point a bit too strongly, but I couldn't think of a better way to
put it at the time.

>Although you claim not to be comparing rape with "normal"
>behavior, I find the quoted paragraph very disturbing.
>After all, if it's true that a woman is using a weapon in
>declining to participate in sex, and a man is legitimately
>grieved by this, then maybe it's fair play for him to use
>his weapon and rape her.

Perhaps the difference between "rape" and "date rape" is that in rape,
it is clear that the perpetrator's intent is to create pain and to
humiliate, whereas in "date rape" it may be just a simple disregard--
not that I'm condoning date rape.  Just as there is such a thing as
criminal negligence, I beleive there is such a thing as criminal
disregard.  Just as there are rapists who use sex to hurt women, there
are women who use sex to hurt men.  Sometimes men need to go off by
themselves to compare notes on how to protect themselves from such
women, and how to tell the difference between those who are
intentionally dangerous, those who are dangerously indifferent, and
those who care enough about us to tell us the bad news.  Since all
three varieties bring us pain, it can sometimes be hard for men to tell
the difference.

The same is true for women, and that's why I support single-sex events
for both women and men.

-r


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