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Date:         Sat, 2 Jan 1993 11:35:51 PST
From:         J Scott Berg <ALHY@SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: contributions
              31 Dec 92 20:16:36 GMT." <F4B880D340A36B9F@SCS.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

In a message of Thu, 31 Dec 92 20:16:36 GMT Fred Rump from home writes:

> I'm so glad to see this. Way back in the early seventies the pastor of Our
> Lady of Calvary church here in Phila, told me that he wanted a 10 year
> contribution history in his computer records. I asked him why. His answer was
> that if any member ever comes to him for help, he will not even ask why if he
> can see that this person helped the parish on a regular basis over time. He
> said he doesn't think he has the right to ask why the need for help when that
> person never asked him to explain what he was donating money for.
>
> That parish away back then started inculcating this philosophy of help to its
> over 3000 families. Msgr Wierzalis has gone to his reward and two pastors hav
> e
> followed him but there is still no tuition for the school of 1200 kids. The
> finance committee gets a monthly printout of parents with kids in school who
> did not meet the $13/wk avg that the parish expects from each family in order
> to meet all of its financial needs. So for 13 bucks a week you could have 5
> kids in school. Obviously not every family donates $700/yr but the concept of
> joint responsibility has been planted. Some give more some give less but as a
> group they manage just like the church of old before tuition and high diocesa
> n
> finance.
>

I personally find these sorts of practices objectionable.  It seems to
go directly against the principle that you should not give based on
the benefits/praise that you expect to get from those around you.
Jesus seems to spend a lot of time picking on the Pharasees because
they do things that are inherently good for the praise that they will
get from those who see them doing it.

I always expected that if I write a check and put it in the collection
basket, somebody just stamps that back with an endorsement and
deposits it.  I would just assume that the parish council, my pastor,
and anyone else had no idea how much I gave.  I don't want the way
they treat me to be based upon how much I donate.  I want to donate
out of love of God and concern for the Church and others, not based
upon how I am treated or what I expect to get back from the Church.

I have no idea if my parish does this sort of stuff.  If they do, I
will stop using checks as well as registering my objections...

Anyhow, just more of my opinions.  Peace and God bless

                                -Scott Berg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed here are, of course, my own and nobody else's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Scott Berg
email: ALHY@slac.stanford.edu
real mail: Varian Physics
           Stanford  CA  94305-4060
phone:  (415) 926-4732 (w)
        (415) 326-2631 (h)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Vatican II and Eng Lit
Keywords: Vatican II
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 21:34:48 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

pss@s-a.amtp.liv.ac.uk (Patrick Spencer) writes:

> My wife is doing an Eng Lit PhD on the effect of Vatican II on the Catholic N
> Anyone have any comments/thoughts on the Council, Catholic novel(ist)s, or wh
>
> Paddy and Dorothy Spencer.
>
> pss@uxb.liv.ac.uk
> dfs@uxb.lic.ac.uk

Gee, the only novelist that I can say I know for sure is Catholic is Andrew
Greeley, and I don't know if I'd want to offer him as an example... <g>.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 00:06:02 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Commandments of the Church

On Dec 26, 12:48am, noao!esler@APOLLO.HP.COM wrote:
} Subject: Commandments of the Church and mixed marriages
}
} It was the latter list that caught my eye; it included such things as
} the requirement to attend Sunday Mass, but the thing that caught my eye
} was the item which said something like "Catholics are forbidden to marry
} non-Catholics".  It was about as blunt as that.
}-- End of excerpt from noao!esler@APOLLO.HP.COM

Kevin,
        Well, the 6th Commandment of the Church is not 'Catholics
are forbidden to marry non-Catholics'; rather it is 'Catholics must
abide by the marriage laws of the Church.'

        I think the booklet is either a bit old or just plain wrong,
since as you pointed out the Church doesn't outright forbid mixed
marriages, though it certainly does discourage them.

Merry Christmas!

Gordon


--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: contributions
Keywords: money
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 22:15:47 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:

> The results of a first survey of parish data were just announced. Data is fro
> churches that have computers and pretty much back up what I've posted here
> previously. I said 20% of the people give 80% of the donations dollar wise.
> The actual survey showed that 19% gave 75%. It also indicates that the vast
> majority of Catholics give around $40 per year to their church. Less than a
> dollar per week. Presumably this is from their Christmas or Easter donation.
>
> A gentleman sitting next to me at Christmas mass proudly put a dollar bill
> into the basket. A commentary of our times?
>

Fred, my wife normally mails our check in.  I normally stick a dollar in on my
own because that's all I've got in my wallet <g>.

I'd love to see some demographics on just who is giving the money.  In parishes
that have schools, I'll bet you see increased donations in families as their
children approach school age, plateau for the eight years the kid is in school,
then the figure tapers off as the children leave the parish school for high
school.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:03:01 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92121410060220@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> DGPAZ@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.ED
U writes:
>On Fri, 4 Dec 1992 19:59:58 CST "Edward J. Branley"
><elendil@SEASHELL.MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US> said:
>
>> We had Kathleen baptized in the hospital, and followed that up with
>> a formal christening in the Church a couple of months after she got
>> out of the hospital.
>
>She was baptised twice?
No. Baptism may be conferred only once. Even if one were to pour water over a 
previously baptized person and pronounce the proper sacramental formula, this 
would not be a sacrament. What you are describing is commonly known as 
"supplying the ceremonies." That is, all the various rites normally performed 
during baptism are carried out, except for the baptism itself. This would 
include profession of faith and baptismal promises by the parents and 
godparents, anointing with the
oil of catechumens and chrism, lighting of the baptismal candle, etc.

Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders may be conferred only once.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Dec 1992 14:25:42 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 30

                    Wednesday, December 30, 1992

I John 2:12-17              Psalm 96                    Luke 2:36-40

                        CHRISTMAS OR XMAS?

"Bring gifts, and enter His courts; worship the Lord." --Psalm 96:8-9

We an have two kinds of Christmases -- one real and the other fake.  Anna had
a real Christmas.  This eighty-four year old widow "was constantly in the
temple, worshiping day and night in fasting and prayer" (Lk 2:37).  "She gave
thanks to God and talked about the Child" (Lk 2:38).  Anna met and loved
Christ.  Her Christmas and life were Christ-centered.

The fake Christmas is described as "carnal allurements, enticements for the
eye, the life of empty show" (I Jn 2:16).  This fake Christmas passes away.
It leaves its victims self-centered, empty, and unprepared to deal with the
demands of life and the new year.  This fake Christmas prevents us from
experiencing God the Father's love (I Jn 2:15).  It leaves us spiritually
bankrupt of love.

What if you've been deceived into celebrating the fake Christmas?  What if
you've still not decided which Christmas you'll celebrate?  You can repent
now.  The Lord has called you to read this for that very reason.  You don't
have to let the devil rob you of Christmas.  You can live for Him.  You can
have a real Christmas.


Prayer:  Father, may I "have no love for the world, nor the things that the
         world affords."  (I Jn 2:15)

Promise: "The man who does God's will endures forever." --I Jn 2:17

Praise:  Through faith in Jesus, Kurt stopped drinking alcohol.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Subject: "Pledges of fealty" and other points of ignorance (was Re: Asylum (sanctuary))
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:32:13 GMT

In article <9Jm6VB1w165w@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us>, elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:
 
|> Hardly, Bryan.  If a Jesuit teaching at Georgetown disobeys his superiors, he
|> could find himself a missionary in Africa within 48 hours.  When you've got
|> that much control, you've received pledges of fealty.

The Jebbies aren't a good example; over the past twenty years, they've become one
of the more liberal orders.  It takes an awful lot for a Jesuit to suffer discipline
today.  In fact, it's been more common for a conservative Jesuit to suffer at the hands of
liberal superiors than for a dissenting Jebbie to get his chain yanked.

--RC
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 26 Dec 1992 00:48:23 -0500
Reply-To:     esler@apollo.hp.com
From:         esler@APOLLO.HP.COM
Subject:      Commandments of the Church and mixed marriages

Recently I attended Mass at one of the Churches close to downtown
Boston.  I didn't realise until I had seated myself that the Mass was
to be a Latin Tridentine Mass, said with approval of the local bishop.
I hadn't been to a Latin Mass for close to 30 years, so I stayed
mostly out of curiosity.  My Latin is extremely rusty, but they had
excellent little books explaining and translating the various parts of
the Mass, so it was quite easy to follow what was going on.

After Mass, I glanced toward the back of the little mass book, where
various prayers and devotions were reproduced.  On one page were two
lists: "The Ten Commandments", and "The Six Conmmandments of the
Church".

It was the latter list that caught my eye; it included such things as
the requirement to attend Sunday Mass, but the thing that caught my eye
was the item which said something like "Catholics are forbidden to marry
non-Catholics".  It was about as blunt as that.

Now, I know that at one time, at least 40 years ago, "mixed marriages"
were frowned upon, but as far as I know, they were not forbidden by
the Church. Or were they ?  In any case, they are certainly not
forbidden now.

Can anyone shed any light on the origin of this "commandment" ?  Is it
just the anachronistic product of someone's imagination ? I don't
think this kind of thing ought to appear in such a book if it's
downright wrong.

A happy, holy Christmas to you all.
--
Kevin Esler //hewlett-packard/cso/stg/std/clo/mll (MA Language Lab)
esler@apollo.hp.com   (508) 436-5979
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Return-Path: cms@dragon.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 00:04:55 EST
From:         "Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)" <cms@DRAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Christmas

I found this in the Catholic Digest (January 1993 issue):

From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not allowed to
practice their faith openly.  During that time someone wrote a carol
as a catechism for young Catholics.  Each verse has a surface meaning
as well as a religious meaning.  Here they are:

Twelve drummers drumming -- the beliefs listed in the Creed
Eleven pipers piping -- the faithful disciples
Ten lords a-leaping -- the Ten Commandments
Nine ladies dancing -- the fruits of the Holy Spirit
Eight maids a-milking -- the Beatitudes
Seven swans a-swimming -- the gifts of the Holy Spirit
Six geese a-laying -- the days of creation
Five golden rings -- the first five books of the Bible
Four calling birds -- the Gospels
Three French hens -- faith, hope, and charity
Two turtle doves -- the Old and New Testaments
A partridge in a pear tree -- Jesus Christ

   So, now you know the real meaning behind the Twelve Days of Christmas!

In Jesus Son of Mary,

Cindy Smith
SPAWN OF A JEWISH CARPENTER
cms@dragon.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 05:42:39 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      Bread, One Body", Jan 5

                    Tuesday, January 5, 1993
                       Saint John Neumann

I John 4:7-10             Psalm 72              Mark 6:34-44

                   MULTIPLIED MULTIPLICATIONS

"Then, taking the five loaves and the two fish, Jesus raised His eyes to
 heaven, pronounced a blessing, broke the loaves, and gave them to the
 disciples to distribute." --Mark 6:41

Why did the Church select today's Gospel reading?  What does the multiplication
of the loaves and fish have to do with the Christmas season?  The point may
be that we can have a few gifts for Christmas, or we can have a miracle, the
multiplication of gifts.  The Lord is willing to multiply our resources to feed
the masses both physically and spiritually.  Jesus has the same compassion and
power today as He had yesterday (see Heb 13:8), but we must do what the little
boy in today's Gospel did.  We must give all to Jesus.  We may have received a
little money or a few presents this Christmas.  If we give them all to Jesus
in some way, we can be part of a Christmas multiplication-miracle.  Then we
can take these multiplied resources and give them all to Jesus again.  This
will result in a second multiplication miracle.  If we keep giving our "alls"
as our "alls' keep multiplying, by the end of this year we will receive more
than we can ever ask or imagine (Eph 3:20).

Give all and keep giving your multiplied "alls" to the Lord.  You will not be
disappointed.


Prayer:  Father, I can't out-give You, but I can try.  Multiply this Christmas.

Promise: "Love, then, consists of this: not that we have loved God but that He
          has loved us and has sent His Son as an Offering for our sins."
          --Jn 4:10

Praise:  John Neumann was one of the founders of the Catholic school system
         in the USA.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
               Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:00:07 CET
From:         ADAM BUDZIKOWSKI <BUDZIKAS@PLEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      Christmas wishes

Blessed Christmas to everyone. Let newborn King bring all His goodnes and peace
 to you.

Wishes you from overseas Adam Budzikowski
                         Department of Clinical and Applied Physiology
                         Warsaw's School of Medicine, Warsaw, Poland

Glory to God in the highest and peace to His people on earth.
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Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:33:17 -0500
From:         Bill J Good <billgood@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject:      Catholic Calendar Dec. 22, 1992

         +   Catholic Calendar for Tuesday, December 22, 1992   +
                         Fourth Week of Advent



 - Scripture readings from the Liturgy of the Word:

               1 Samuel 1:24-28
               1 Samuel 2:1, 4-5, 6-8
               Luke 1:46-56



Reflections on Monday's Liturgy of the Word:

In today's gospel message Mary, the Mother of God, declares to her cousin
Elizabeth, that in her, the fulfillment of God's promise for a Savior has
indeed been accomplished.

The Canticle of Mary or the Magnificat, is Mary's beautiful reply to
Elizabeth, who asked. "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me."

It is a prayer the Church repeats daily in its Evening Prayers. It reminds us
that God keeps his promises and will never forget those who love and serve
him.

With Christmas so close and with the awareness that Jesus is always present if
we will but recognize and praise him, let the humble prayer of Mary echo in
our own heart.

May we like Mary say, "Lord, I am your handmaiden, let your will in my life be
done according to what you desire. Let my soul, my life, my every action
proclaim your greatness. Let my mouth forever praise your holy Name."

 - Donna Nelson


   Reprinted with permission from:
      "The Way, The Truth, The Life" - a Catholic BBS at 315-392-2368



Let us pray...

  ...Father, may we humbly accept Your Son into our hearts, may we be
     purified by His love, and may we become as faithful to You,
     as You are to us.

  ...O Father, that your infinite power may heal our grievous illnesses,
     and that we may turn to You, repentant of our sins.

  ...for those of us who will die today, O Father, may we be shown your
     mercy, and may our grieving families be comforted in their sorrow.

  ...that we may reaffirm the lives of our relatives, friends, associates,
     and forgive those persons for whom our love is lacking.

  ...that the loving hand of God may be shown to the suffering people in the
     former Yugoslavian states, Somalia, Chile, Peru and many other troubled
     areas of the world.

  ...that all people and governments will respect every unborn life and the
     elderly.

  ...for those who live alone or feel that they are alone in the world,
     that God might enlighten them and give them comfort through His
     servants and through His Grace.



Rosary Mysteries for Tuesday: Sorrowful

 1. Agony in the Garden (Contrition)
 2. Scourging at the Pillar (Purity)
 3. Crowning with Thorns (Courage)
 4. Carrying of the Cross (Patience)
 5. The Crucifixion (Self-denial)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: baptismal rites for infants in the roman catholic church
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:59:16 GMT

In article <9212140723.AA25577@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes
:
>Jim, this sacrament is done on behalf of the infant.  The questions,
>answers, promises, and renouncing is done by the parents on behalf of
>their kid.  If they do not follow up with the promises made at the
>time of the baptism, and, therefore, if the promises made by the
>parents are not true, then I question the validity of the sacrament.
>I repeat my contention that God will provide the necessary Grace for
>the salvation of an infant, dying without sin other than Original Sin.
>And the act of dipping the kid three times and signing him with the
>cross is only a part of the sacrament.  If the promises made by the
>parents are not valid, then the sacrament is not complete.

Well, I'm not sure what purpose my response will serve, except to say: here is 
what the Catholic Church teaches, and you don't agree with it. But here goes.
First, in an emergency, a child may be baptized without the presence or consent 
of its parents. This is a valid baptism.
Second, and more important, the efficacy of the sacraments derives from the
Passion of Christ, and not from the virtue of the minister. As Augustine said, 
when anyone baptizes, it is Christ who baptizes. Whether the parents keep their 
promises after the fact of valid Baptism does not extend or cancel the 
effects of the sacrament, as it were retroactively. 
Thrid, the form and matter of baptism involve natural water and the Trinitarian 
formula. Signing the infant with the cross is an ancillary rite but not part of 
the essence of the sacrament. 
 >   I fear that you are painting yourself into a corner.

Merry Christmas.
>Shalom,                             Len Howard
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Christmas wishes
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:30:10 GMT

I want to wish all of my brothers and sisters on the net a very warm and
happy Christmas.  May God bless all of you and keep you forever in His
heart.

With my love,

Bob von Buelow


--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Walker Percy
Date: 4 Jan 93 00:59:42 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <CATHOLIC%93010201023306@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU>, esler@APOLLO.HP.COM writes:

[...]

> Ed,
>    one of the great Catholic novelists of recent years lived his life
> in your neck of the woods: Walker Percy, who resided in Covington,
> until his recent death.

[...]

If anybody has seen a retrospective on Walker Percy, please let me
know.  I liked what I read of him and would like to know more about
him.

-Ken

> Kevin Esler //hewlett-packard/cso/stg/std/clo/mll (MA Language Lab)
> esler@apollo.hp.com   (508) 436-5979
-- 
miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | Graecis ac barbaris, sapientibus et
opinions are my own      | insipientibus debitor sum
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1993 02:16:05 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      re: Pope Speaks

On Dec 31,  2:51pm, Rae Stabosz wrote:
} Subject: wanted, info on "The Pope Speaks"
} I can't seem to find a listing for the periodical "The Pope Speaks" on
} the list of Catholic periodicals that Gordon drew up.  I think it might
} be on an updated list which I've misfiled.
}
} Can anybody supply me with information on ordering it?  Thanks.
}
} Rae
}-- End of excerpt from Rae Stabosz

Rae,
        It's an Our Sunday Visitor publication.  I think the price is either
$18 or $15/year, 6 issues.  You can order from them like any of the other
OSV publications on the FAQ.

GZ


--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.