HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Islam and apostacy
Date: 25 Jan 93 03:32:51 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:

>The moment this child rejects the the Islamic faith 
>and fails to fulfill his religious obligations, he is no longer considered a
>Muslim.  
	
	A teenaged apostate was recently executed in
	Saudi Arabia after he became an adult.
	He indeed is no longer considered a Muslim, nor
	even a human being.


>To convert, you simply approach a Muslim (people 
>typically go to the 'Emam of the nearest Mosque), express your sincere 
>desire to become a Muslim, and verbally declare your solemn belief that
>``There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.''
>That's it.  It's that simple.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	
	It may be that simple to get in, but it is not  
	that simple to get out.  Be forewarned,
	if you change your mind and abandon Islam later on,
	you may pay with your life.  Here is the relevant hadith,
	kindly translated for me by an email correspondent.

"The blood of a Muslim can only be spilt legally on one of three occasions:
a married adulterer, a soul for a soul, and he who abandons his religion
and leaves the congregation (of Muslims)."
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: khater@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Issam Abu-Khater)
Subject: Boycotting American Cars
Keywords: Boycott, Cars
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:10:42 GMT

Salam to All,
I am forwarding this call by Prof. M. I. Elmasry hopping that it will
be of benefit for you:

Please circulate.........
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded message:
> From elmasry Tue Jan 26 13:46:45 1993
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 13:46:45 -0500
> From: "M.I. Elmasry" <elmasry>
> Message-Id: <9301261846.AA12582@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>
> To: khater
> Subject: Boycott American Cars 
> 
>               D O  N O T  B U Y  A M E R I C A N  C A R S
> 
>               PROTEST U.S. DOUBLE-STANDARD FOREIGN POLICY
> 
> U.S. double-standard foreign policy in dealing with international problems is 
> so unfair that it is a real threat to world peace. 
> 
> The U.S. is now the only superpower and it is manipulating the U.N. to its 
> advantage. Now there are two types of U.N. resolutions: ones which are 
> enforceable by the U.S. military (eg. regarding Iraq and Libya) and the others 
> which are not (eg regarding Serbia and Israel). 
> 
> It is the time for peace loving people to protest this dangerous U.S. 
> double-standard foreign policy by boycotting American products, especially
> big-ticket items, eg. American cars. This will send the message to Washington
> loud and clear. 
> 
> This is not a new approach to register your protest. To this day, most 
> Japanese don't buy American cars because they still remember Heroshima and
> most Jews don't buy German cars because they still remember the Holocaust. 
> 
>                   L E T  U S  N O T  F O R G E T  ! ! 
> 
>               D O  N O T  B U Y  A M E R I C A N  C A R S 
> 
> 

..........................End Forwarded Messege.........................
Issam.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: international response needed
From: mscs240@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:43:42 -0600
Organization: Mankato State University

I need someone to send me electronic mail for this computer class I am enrolled
in.  The only requirement is that the mail must be from a country outside the 
United States. So someone please write to me! My user id is mscs240. Thanks
in advance!
 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26195 soc.culture.greek:12475
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 21:15:57 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C19M9n.B6M@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>E. T. stands for Extra Terrestrial as you very well understood from the 
>content of the above posting.   

Typical "MS". Always has to stick his "palik" nose into every 
discussion with non-points. There's hiding and there's finding,
we'd say. Enjoy it.

  'Greek Atrocities in the Vilayet of Smyrna (May to July 1919), Inedited
  Documents and Evidence of English and French Officers,' Published by
  The Permanent Bureau of the Turkish Congress at Lausanne, Lausanne,
  Imprimerie Petter, Giesser & Held, Caroline, 5 (1919).

  pages 40-41:

  << VIOLATED MOSQUES

  All the mosques and religious institutions of Manissa, numbering
  about 150, have been violated by the Greek army, their doors were
  forced in and their floors torn up, their carpets stolen or soiled,
  their windows broken and their inside walls defaced. The worst
  damaged mosques of the town are the following:

    Servili mesdjid
    Tchatal djami
    Kenzi djami
    Mouradie
    Ak mesdjid
    Ayvaz Pacha djami
    The convents Kenzi, and Kabak Hadje
    Gune Djami
    Dilchikar
    Dere mesdjid
    Nifli Zade
    Hodjdja-djlar
    The school of Theology Sinan and the cemetery Thchatal Kabristan,
    are violated, defiled and deteriorated.>>

  page 53:

  << VILLAGES DESTROYED

   The following villages of Bergamo, one of the richest and most
   prosperous regions in the world, are completely burned and
   destroyed by the Greek hordes:

         Kirikly
         Kalarga
         Djame-Keuy
         Eminly
         Mouhadjir
         Baba-Keuy
         Hamzaly
         Korkally
         Eyry-Keuy
         Yenidje
         Kizil-Tchoukour
         Kodja-Oba
         Merkez-Kozak
         Aladjalar
         Achaghi-Kiriklar
         Rechadiye
         Tepeleni
         Chakran
         Eyri-Gueul
         Boz-Keuy
         Djoumali
         Tchenguelly. >>

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Summary: And I thought he was dead
Date: 22 Jan 93 00:42:30 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

In article <1993Jan18.144458.195@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In article <199316.1777.22780@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>Wayne, I have a terrific idea. Spend $10 and phone Leibowitz. His home phone
>(from the U.S.) is: +972-2-255449. His home address:
>Professor Y. Leibowitz
>Rechov Ussishkin 62
>Jerusalem, Israel
>
>But don't be so  terribly disappointed by what he tells you :-)

I don't want to appear totally ignorant here but didn't Professor Leibowitz
die in 1991? Are we talking about the same Leibowitz? The biochemist who
talks about 'JudeoNazis' or whatever. A really old guy who fled from Hitler
in 193something? Are you sure he is still alive because I am sure I heard
he died. Just don't tell me he's on the Net too (I am still getting over
the shock of Dr Timothy Leary and Noam Chomsky begining around somewhere.
It is amazing the people whom you never meet here, but are so close too)

>> Many great American leaders, including Thomas Jefferson, held
>> repulsively racist views. Pointing out these views does not erase
>> or degrade their other achievements.

Personally I think that if Jefferson was 'sleeping' with one of his
fourteen year old slaves that does, how can I put it, place his 'other
achievements' in a slightly different context. Would you disagree?


Joseph Askew


-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26272 soc.culture.europe:11411 soc.culture.greek:12520 soc.history:10964
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: BUSH BOMBS ISLAMIC CONFERENCE TODAY
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:39:03 GMT

In article <Jan20.223015.91253@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.231229.28215@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>|> In article <Jan18.204420.48993@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
>|> >In article <1993Jan18.191411.5560@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>|> >|> While I am saddened by the unneeeded death of three residents of
>|> >|> Baghdad (and the whole situation in Iraq),

>|> >Crocodile tears ??

>|> I strongly resent this allegation.  I think that the bloodshed now
>|> occuring in Iraq is worse than pointless, its counter-productive, from
>|> both the American and Iraqi point of view.

>Fine, then please allow me to offer my apologies, I wrote the post at 
>a time I was enraged at the death of innocent Iraqi civilians, I should
>not have drawn the erroneous conclusions about your motivations
>as I did.

	I understand almost exactly how you feel.  I am often angered
by posts labeling Israelis as worse than Nazis, and often respond
while angry.  (Note I am not comparing you to those people, merely
stating that I understand how one can misspeak while angry.)  Your
apologies are gladly accepted.

>|> I have seen no motivation for attacking a hotel in downtown Baghdad
>|> with a single cruise missile.  While the games Bush is playing may be
>|> juvenile, I don't think he would order a hotel attacked.

>I did not say that the Americans purposely targeted the hotel, 
>I just listed a range of possibilities, in fact in a later article 
>I stated my belief that the missile either malfunctioned on its
>own and hit the hotel by mistake, or was somehow knocked off target
>(less likely in my opinion). It is more likely that the warhead 
>malfunctioned if we are to consider the track record of US defense
>contractors, and at least one malfunction out of 45 is a pretty 
>good ratio for them. 

	Eight missiles either malfunctioned or were shot down by the Iraqis.

[I have no quarrel with the rest of what youy said, and deleted it, so
my news program will let me post.]

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:36:56 GMT

wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
 
# No I understand you very well, Danny.  With all due respect, either
# we're having a serious communication problem here or you're simply
# trying to be slippery.

First, let me sound my appreciation for the tone of your response. Unlike
McGuire, you do not try to spread Nazi-like propaganda and hatered for
Judaism, but engage in a relatively reasonable debate. However, I am
seriously deadlocked with you about the issue of Islam being transfered by
the father. I asked two Muslem guys here - one from India and one from
Turkey (both graduate students) - and they disagree with you; in their
opinion, the son of a Moslem father is considered a Moslem, and that
is that. They mentioned Rushdie, who is considered a Moslem, although
he most definitly can not be described as one "practicing Islam". I find
your definition strange. For instance, there are many estimates to the
numbers of Moslems in the world. Do these estimates bring into account
who "practices Islam" and who doesn't? Do the religious leaders of Islam
bring this into account? The political leaders of countries which have
an Islamic majority? And, even if your claim is correct, there is still
a difference berween a child of a Moslem and one who is not - the one
does not have to convert, the second does. Is this true or not?

And now, for my mention of the persecution of Jews by Moslem societies
in the past. The reason I bring this (as well as persecution of Jews
by the Christian Church) is that it is *strongly related* to the
attitude of Jews (especially in the past) to these religions. This
cannot be emphasised strongly enough; it was pointed out numerous times
during this debate; our "good Rabbi" continues to completely ignore
this crucial point, and repeat his mis-interpreted, selective quotes,
endlessly.

As to your question: yes, I have a certain political agenda which I
pursue, and I think you are, to some extent, familiar with it. I am
not, though, a political activist, so I do the little I can do within
my limitations.


-Danny Keren.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from Judea and Samaria and Gaza
Date: 21 Jan 93 11:59:39 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan20.004153.17526@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
->jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
->
->>->It became a battlefield when the Arabs living there engaged the
->>->Israelis in battle.  Unfortunately, those same Arabs don't seem to
->>->care that when they start battles in those areas, they are endangering
->>->nine year old children.
->
->>Aah - the old "blaming the victims" technique.
->
->In a sense, yes.  Sometimes the aggressor becomes the victim as well,
->and deserves the blame.
->
->The Arabs started the intifada, and continue it, preferring bloodshed
->over peace and living together as neighbors in peace.

Well look at those naughty old Arabs. They could live quietly in the rubble 
of the homes blown up by the kind Israeli soldiers, but instead they make a
fuss. How very selfish of them.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

Unauthorised access is a criminal offence under The Computer Misuse Act 1990.
If you are a British Airways employee, disconnect NOW.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: Islam and apostacy
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:14:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.084701.7846@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.225002.18958@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>>>
>>>"The blood of a Muslim can only be spilt legally on one of three occasions:
>>>a married adulterer, a soul for a soul, and he who abandons his religion
>>>and leaves the congregation (of Muslims)."
>>
>>I doubt the authenticity of this Hadith.  And, since you are such a great
>>expert on Islam, perhaps you can reconcile the alleged Hadith for me with 
>>(the authenticated) Hadith that says ``La `Ikrah fi al-Deen,'' which 
>>translates to ``There is NO Compulsion in Religion.''
>
>I beleive the above is Quran not hadith.

Indeed, it's in the Quran 2:256.  This only strengthens my argument,
because in Islam the Quran takes precedence over every thing.

Thanks, Zeyd, for the correction.

Waleed Muhanna

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: US attack on IRAQ - illegal
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 22:58:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.054236.12018@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, msilverm@nyx.cs.du.edu
(Mike Silverman) writes:

|>I don't like Bush and am glad to see him go,
|>but by comparing him to Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein, you
|>prove that you have no credibility.

Come off it, Bush supported both of them in his time. He fell out with Saddam
but he certainly ensured that the Khumer Rouge didn't lose the Cmbodian seat in
the UN, despite being wanted for genocide.

Had Saddam done what the US expected and only grabbed Kewaits northern Oil wells
Bush would still be chummy with Saddam. Bush wanted a base in the gulf, Saddam's
beligerence towards Kewait would almost guarantee one regardless of the outcome.
Hence he tells Avril Galesspie to report to Saddam that the US is going to keep
out of the Kewait/Iraq dispute.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Date: 25 Jan 1993 15:15:40 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu


In article <1jth0bINNd25@manuel.anu.edu.au>,
bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>
>I wonder how much this would change if the Irgun was seen behind all
>the whitewash.  It seems like nobody knows or cares that the Irgun
>did anything beyond blowing up the King David Hotel and organising
>illegal immigration.  The large number of acts of pure indiscriminate
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>terror, such as setting off bombs in public places frequented by Arabs,
>seem to have been largely forgotten.  The fact that such actions were


I must confess to being among those who have largely forgotten the
large number of acts of indiscrimate terror by the Irgun.

So here's a real softball question:  could you list a few that your
researches have turned up?

This is a sincere question--I am always eager to learn something
new.  (Although I have to be frank and add that the rest of your
posting about the Lechi, Irgun, Deir Yassin, etc., which I did not
quote above, is not what I would call high quality information or
thinking.  Nor, come to think of it, is any of what you usually
post.  So I'm not expecting anything either factual or astonishing.
But maybe I'll be surprised.)

Thanks,

Vic
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Be careful... The dirty plan...
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1993Jan23.152257.2030@cs.brown.edu> <C1FKEG.601@imag.fr>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:51:32 GMT

In article <C1FKEG.601@imag.fr> oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:

     Well, i never heard such a statement from Shamir, but i'm certain
    this idea exists, and it's quite supported by several religious
    guys. Asking for a proof ?.  The map of "Eretz Israel" was posted
    to soc.culture.arabic by a Jew (*), and it extended from the
    Euphrat to the Nile. I have no idea about the popularity of such
    claims, but i wonder about the mental helth of those who believe
    in it. I believe Ariel Sharon has already given such a statement.

It wasn't the Nile, but some Wadi in the northern Sinai.

     (*) The map was cross-posted from soc.culture.Jewish,
    unfortunately i didn't save it.

Neither did I, but I am pretty sure it reflected the territory under
control of King David at his death.  It reflects the largest amount of
territory ever under control of a Jewish/Israelite regime.

Note, however, that it is FAR larger than the land promised to the
Children of Israel in the Torah [Numbers 34:1-12], which is
more-or-less Mandate Palestine (sans Transjordan).

(I must have a death wish for posting this.  I'm going to be
contradicted dozens of times before I get back here.)

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26200 talk.politics.soviet:10690 soc.culture.soviet:12359
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: good luck to a fellow networker
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 21:23:38 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <9301221639.AA01055@feds46.Prime.COM> mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM (Mark Markish x2799) writes:

>Kyrgyzstan's Foreign Minister Ednan Karabaev confirmed on 21
>January the appointment of Dr.Hasan B.Mutlu the Ambassador to
>Israel. Welcomed by the Israeli officials, this appointment,
>according to sources, has caused certain discontent in Riyadh and

I am happy for him. Now any comment?

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."

            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


 "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination 
  of the Muslim population in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, 
  Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the 
  extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government 
  during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
                  (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
                 

 "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
  Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
  of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
  are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide 
  perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
  Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
  lands."         (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)