From: samsung!ulowell!harvard!generali!mbp@uunet.uu.net (Mark B Palmerino)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Free Will and Evil
Date: 8 Nov 92 05:48:08 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <Nov.5.02.24.33.1992.3003@geneva.rutgers.edu> MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>In article <Nov.4.00.30.24.1992.973@geneva.rutgers.edu>,
>DSIMON@thor.nafb.trw.com (D_SIMON) says:

As the attribution suggests above, I'm responding to Martin's response to
some of Dan's comments. I am taking them out of order, however...

>>So spend eternity in hell.  That'll teach God!

When I first read this comment I had two conflicting responses. One was a
sympathetic one to Dan for a sense of frustration that I think was part
of the motivation for the "So spend eternity in hell" statement.
Sometimes I think the emotional sub-text in many responses clouds the more
interesting aspects of the discussion.

I must say that although I don't agree with some of the arguments put
forth by Martin and Mike Noonan, I am thankful for their responses
because they have raised some difficult questions - it has been very
instructive to me to try and work through them.

Now, the other response I had to "So spend eternity in hell" was
something like: "Uh oh, this doesn't seem to be a very helpful remark." I
felt that for a couple of reasons. First, this won't sway anyone who
doesn't believe in God - it won't even sway anyone who does believe in
God but who doesn't believe in hell. I was assured it wouldn't do
anything (positive) for Martin.

Second, and I think this is more important, the only force that "So spend
eternity in hell" could have, IMHO, is a negative one. I mean, it *might*
scare someone into believing God (though surely not Martin and Mike - nor
me for that matter). But that raises two questions in my mind:

1. Does belief based on fear really work in the long run? (I personally
don't think so).
2. Aren't there many more positive reasons to believe in God? (Naturally, this 
is a rhetorical question to just about everyone who currently believes
that God exists, :-)).

>
>If god tosses me in hell for not accepting the non-evidence I've
>received thus far, and for not giving in and just blindly believing,
>I'll prefer hell! 

See, it didn't do much for Martin - :-)

>>
>>I could never rape and murder a baby.  Does that mean I don't have
>>free will?  Jesus could not sin.  Does that mean He doesn't have free will?
>
>Sheesh, try not to be too self-righteous in proclaiming that sin is
>beneath you...

Well, here it is again. I don't see that this statement will have any
positive effect on Dan and it doesn't seem, to me, to be helpful to the
argument developed by Martin.

I think my main point is this: We've had a fascinating and
thought-provoking discussion on a very difficult topic - one that has
been "hotly" debated for a long, long time. I appreciate the positions
taken by all parties and frankly just about all the arguments have
benefitted me in some way. Thanks to everyone for that. However, the
personal remarks, at times, are gratuitous and unnecessary - they just
don't help.

(And yes, I know that my comments could be construed as personal and
unhelpful. I hope they've been constructive.)
-- 
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Mark Palmerino           mbp@wjh12.harvard.edu     Voice: (617) 345-9500