From: minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas)
Subject: Re: Some more info on the Baha'is
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 05:42:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.221508.6638@ac.dal.ca> 01saeid@ac.dal.ca writes:
>
>
>
>Dear Farzin:
>I would briefly make some comments about your article but it is up to you
>to search for the truth.                             
>
>> are not. For example the fact that followers of Mirza Husseinali are
>> exchanging their books (for better ones!), returning some of them every
>> year (because it is not good for them!) etc. Of course they all do this
>> without any question. For example they are asked to return a certain book
>> for exchange.The new book is almost the same as the old one, but they never
>> ask the reason for the exchange. Now, this is very funny, but that is the
>> way that they are trained! (You know the reason for the exchange is nothing
>> but to fix some of God's mistkes, misreresentation and mischief! For example
>> the first printing of the "Ighan", the most important book of Mirza is not
>> available. The reason is that it contains the most obvious mischief of Mirza
>> the God. In the next publications this misquotation has been corrected.
>> However, the line of reasoning in the new edition is lost, which indicates
>> the change. This sort of change in Bahai's miracles is too many to mention)
>==========
>Bahaies do not believe in MIRACLES first of all.
>Secondly get in touch with some american Bahai's from your city and confirm
>this.

This is zafar again. I believe that what farzin said is true, i read different
version of kitab-e-eqan. I noticed that many sentences and sometimes even
paragraphs were different where they should have been the same. I thought this
was something I overlooked, but I read the books again and it could not have
been innocent errors. There were really intentional differences. In order to
make sure I took another version of the eqan and found that to have differences
from the other two, so the book has been changed. And as far as Bahai's 
believing in miracles, ask Hooshyar and Kamran if they believe in miracles, ask
them if they believe bahaullah performed miracles. Why just a few postings ago
Kamran was talking about the miracles of bahaullah.

As far as the rest of the stuff goes:

>> 
>> Some of very imprtant works of God is not available in English. The reason
>> is that there is no way to fix the cotadictory nonsenses in them. I guess
>> these books includes the book of "Badii' " by Mirza. It is in this book
>> that he calls Subh-e-azal a "Goosaleh" and a "khar" (Pages 9,12 for first
>> fact and page 174 for the latter).
>> 
>> A second book which indicates Abdolbaha's successor should be Mirza Mohamad
>> ali "Abbas afandi's brother" is "Adei'eh Mahboob, Ketab-e-A'hdi, page 218".
>> 
>Please contact your local Bahai office  and get an english copy of those
>books before posting this article. What do you think the american Bahai's
>read when commamorating the assention of Baha'u'llah or Abdulbaha.
>It is essential to read the table of visitations (VacciatNameh).
>
>> Let me quote some phrases from the book "God passes by" of Shoughi afandi
>> about how they helped british army defeating Othomon government.
>> "We learned that when the British marched into Haifa there was some difficulty
>> about the commissariat. The officer in command went to consult theMaster.
>> "I have corn" was the reply
>> "But for the army?" said the astonished soldier.
>> "I have corn for the British Army, " said Abdul-Baha
>> He truly walked the Mystic way with practical feet.
>> 
>> No wonder Abdul-Baha received the title of "Knighthood" from British
>> Government.
>======
>If you think helping people means having secret dealing with British
>I think you need to see a doctor. Why don't you talk about Abdulbaha's
>help to the local community of Haifa or you probably never heard of it.
>
>> 
>> About the most modern Bahai laws I can mention the following:
>> Page 18, line 5 of the Holy book "Aghdass" : Burn alive whomever burns a house
>> intentionally"
>======
>When you can cut the thief's hand I think you should be allowed to execute
>the civil laws with in the religious context.
>
>> The 'mahr" for urban women's marriage is 19 misghal of gold and for rural
>> women's 19 misghal of silver!
>========
>What is wrong that. I think it is giving more thoughts to the rural 
>communities than city and it is a good sign.
>
>> Women recieve nothing from residential house or clothes of the deceased.
>==========
>Not nothing and this case is only when there is no will after the death.
>
>> Seyed Bab's teaching is really noble:
>> Don't drink donkey's milk and don't carry weghts on the cowsand don't hit
>> the eggs to something before you cook it! Page 49 of Bayan-e-Arabi
>================
>I think you can find the same laws in any religion. Do not eat pork or the
>fish with no Felse is another that Moslims do.
>
>> Destroy all the books except the ones that is about this "amr"i.e."Babigary"
>> page 198 of Bayan-e-farsi
>=========
>That does not refer to the holy books. please find the correctness
>of your Ahadiths!!!!!!. Many of Babis at the time where murdered simply
>because Moslims bought their trust by having Qur'an sworded adn held
>up to get them out of their defence. 
>
>> And finally in page 298 of bayan-e-farsi, Seyed-e-Bab allows the wife of
>> a man who can not bear a child to sleep with someone else to bear him a
>> child.
>=======
>Please find the correct interprotation of your Ahadith. In the Bahai
>faith you do not even have to refer to clergy just pick up a book
>and read about it and judge it your self.
>
>
>> Of course the bahais would try to distance themselves from the Bab, but
>> accoding to their leader Mirza, none of Bab's teaching is invalid.
>=======
>This is propaganda.
>
>>                  
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>                    
>> Sir Abbas afandi in his book "Makatib" page 347 prays in Arabic whose
>> translation is "Parvardegara empratoore bozorg zhorzhe panjom (Gerorge IV)
>> ra beh towfighate rahmaanie khod moa'yad bedar wa sayehye aan keshwar ra
>> bar in mantegheh ( Palestine, where he was given the title of knighthood
>> for helping British army defeating Othoman Governor) beh yaari wa hefz wa
>> hemayate kheesh mostadaam bedar, tou(God)neeroomand wa aali wa aziz wa kareem
>> meebashi.... Abbas Abdulbaha.
>==========
>I think you should find the correctness of the romours before spreading them.
>This is simply a prayer for the well being.
>
>> Abbas Afandi was pretending to be a muslim to the last day of his life (real
>> meaning of hypocracy!). This is because of what Shoughi Afandi writes in
>> his book entitled " God passes by" and I qoute from the persian translation
>> which is called "Gharn-e- badi'e", page 318.... " .....hatta dar akhareen jome
>> tawaghofe ishaan dar jahan, ba za'fe faravan jehate adaye namze zohr dar
>> masjede jame'e shahr hazer gardeedehand...".  It is interesting to note
>> that there is no "Namaze Jamaat" in Bahaii way of life and thus he was
>> showing to the muslims that he was a muslim.
>=========
>I beleive you should read the God Passes By to understand the whole
>story behind. You are just taking a sentence and elaborating on it.
>
>> 
>> Mirza Husseinali (Bahau'llah!) Was never imprisoned for FOURTY Years. He was
>> arrested because of an attempt on the life of "Nasereddin Shah", but very
>> briefly, and with the help from foriegn ambassadors he was released.
>> There are enough in Bahaii books to prove this and I can provide the details
>> if necessary.
>=======
>Please do present the book. How come those books are available and the rest
>of the books are not available.
>
>> 
>> Seyede Bab in two instances denied that he is Bab,  Mahdi, peyghambr or
>> having any knowledge. The first denial came in Masjede Vakeel in Shiraz
>> according to pages 136-138 of "Talkheese tareekhe Nabeele Zarandee". The
>> second Toubeh nameh was written in Tabreez and it is quoted by Edward Brown
>> and also on Pages 204-205 of the book entitled "Kashfolgheta'" by Mirza
>> Aboulfazle Golpayegani, a very prominent Bahaii moballegh.
>==========
>Ther is fabricated testimony that we Bahai's are all aware of.
>
>> 
>> The story that Seyed Bab went to a toielt after the first bullet hit the rope
>> is almost correct. He actually ran into a stable and the second time was
>> shot dead. The stories that he had to go to his secretary to write the last
>> words and then turning himself etc. is only good for "Aghnam" or sheeps,
>> as the master Bahau'llah calls his followers, to believe. Indeed "bring your
>> reasons, if you are right!)
>============
>May be you should update your knowledge by reading a bit more.
>So far we have got him to the point where he got free once. Giving it
>more time we can prove that he indeed was executed for his cause.
>
>
>> When Seyede Bab was in prison in Tabreez. There was a hearing by Ulema and
>> they decided that he was mentally ill and should not be executed (page 209
>> of Brown's the Babi religion), But amir Kabeer, the sadre Azam, for the sake
>> of the country  had to order for his execution. You see, the poor people of
>> Iran was awaiting the Mahdi and they were thinking the gate to Mahdi is
>> in prison. Bab with the help of many agents or semi agents was making alot
>> of trouble at a time that Iran desparately needed calm and harmony.
>> 
>===================
>Can you please find out for yourself that how many Mullahs sign the order
>you will then see that most of clergy were behind the decision.
>

It seems that when he is providing quotes you say that it is a fabrication or
that it is a misinterpretation of what was meant. Since farsi is not my 
language I am more likely to agree with the second objection than the first 
because I have seen the wonderful scholars on this net totally murder verses
of the Quran. But when every dear Bahai has demanded to provide quotes and
references, and Farzin has, what is the deal in denying that his quotes are 
false? I only read kitab-e-eqan and found his assertion of the contradiction
of the different versions to be true. Doesn't that tell you something? God
whether he speaks through man or through angel is not supposed to contradict
himself. If he does then either the old statement is false or the new statement
is false. Either way God lied. Does God lie? A more likely and more sane and
more comfortable conclusion is that God never spoke, but it was only the voice
of a man who was not careful enough. I couldn't care less whether you believe 
in Bahai or not. I would rather believe in the Quran a book that even the most
bitter critics of Islam state unequivocally is a book that is unchanged and 
self-consistent.

sincerely

zafar minhas

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