HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J. Meltsner)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: episode list
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:50:57 GMT
Reply-To: meltsner@crd.ge.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: GE Research and Development Center



As an aside, the TV version of _The Disappearance of Lady Carfax_ was
the most impressive rewrite of Doyle to date -- the original was a
real stinker, with the only saving grace of being short as well.  The
TV version, while only loosely based on the original, was a good show.

And although it'll probably start a new thread of discussion, what's
your least favorite story in the Canon?  Having recently read _Carfax_
for the last Altamont's Agents meeting, its badness blocks out the
other weak stories we've had to read for the meetings.  Sort of makes
me wish I had been a member back when they were reading the *good*
part of the Canon.  [Although the bad stories lend themselves to the
truly vicious autopsies favored by some of the Agents.]

And yes, I know Strict Holmesians don't call them stories, or
differentiate between them on the basis of quality.  I'm just a member
of the Spousal Contingent of the Agents, after all.

===============================================================================
Ken Meltsner                        | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391
GE Research and Development Center  | Fax:  (518) 387-6474
P.O. Box 8, Room KWD270		    | Nothing I say should be attributed
Schenectady, NY 12301               | to my employer, and probably vice-versa
"It's probable, just not very likely." -- Fire Maidens From Outer Space.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: credmond@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond)
Subject: Re: The New, Improved, F.A.Q. List!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:18:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.084349.6599@netcom.com> ewadams@netcom.com (Ernest Adams) writes:
>The new FAQ says that the Irregulars did not admit women "until very
>recently." Have they definitely changed this deplorable policy? When
>did it happen? Who was the first female Irregular?

There actually was one female Irregular as early as the 1950's --
Lee Offord -- who may have been admitted either by mistake or as
a joke.  Then in the early 1980's (I will look up specific date
if anyone wishes) Lisa McGaw, proprietor of the William Gillette
Memorial Luncheon, was also invested, again as an anomaly.

But the BSI were truly opened to women in January 1991, with the
investitures of Dame Jean Conan Doyle, Julia Carlson Rosenblatt,
Evelyn Herzog, and Susan Rice.

There were four more women admitted in 1992, and another one this month.

CAR

Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: emeinfel@sadira.gb.nrao.edu (Edmond L. Meinfelder)
Subject: Re: Holmes Game
Keywords: holmes, games
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:30:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.223454.8251@nrao.edu>, emeinfel@quadra.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Edmond L. Meinfelder) writes:
|> It is an interactive network game.  Imagine an infocom game that could have
|> other people roaming about.  Right now, it has just begun.  This means it
|> is empty and rather boring.  The theme is Sherlock Holmes, and there will
|> be a crimes to solve etc.  Stop by and look around, to get there just type:
|> 
|> 'telnet 192.33.116.108'  

Actually that is wrong.  The correct command is: 'telnet 192.33.116.108 9000'
Actually any TCP client that can handle ports will work.  My apologies to those
whom I have conused.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: misrael@csi.uottawa.ca (Mark Israel)
Subject: Watson's intelligence
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:55:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.024726.5616@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge) writes:

> Q:        How about Watson?  Was he really a[s] big a fool as he's often made out 
> to be in movies?
> A:        Not even close.  The real Watson (as revealed in the Canon) was a 
> solid, dependable, middle-class Englishman.  Not overly imaginative, of 
> average intelligence [...]

   Below average, I fear.  See the last paragraph of Conan Doyle's preface to
_The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes_, and Holmes's comment on Watson in "The Lion's
Mane".

   Not *quite* as stupid as Nigel Bruce's portrayal, of course.  (One of Nigel
Bruce's favourite jokes was to say in a thick Watson voice:  "People sometimes
ask me if I'm, er, English.  Well, the truth is, if I were any more English,
I couldn't talk!")

   And I never guessed the solution to any of the stories before it was 
presented.  Did anyone else here manage to do that (if you can even *remember*
the first time you read the Canon)?

misrael@csi.uottawa.ca			Mark Israel
Sunbeams brightly play, where Fancy's fair pavilion once is pight.
From: ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Object of our desires
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:57:18 GMT
Organization: University of Scranton


	What's all this Sherlock stuff...isn't this the John newsgroup?

	(i'm serious about this)
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave D. Cawley		   |	Where a social revolution is pending and,
University Of Scranton	   |	for whatever reason, is not accomplished,
ddc1@jaguar.uofs.edu	   |	reaction is the alternative.
ddc1@SCRANTON		   |				-Daniel De Leon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Peter Monks<P.D.MONKS@UK.AC.BHAM>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Granada TV - New Series!
Date: 28 Jan 93 10:00:47 GMT
Organization: The University of Birmingham, United Kingdom
NNTP-Posting-Host: ibm3090.bham.ac.uk

==============================================================================
Being new to the group - here's my first posting.

Last evening Granada TV began showing its new series of Sherlock Holmes with
a two hour film entitled "The Last Vampyre" starring Jeremy Brett, Edward
Hardwicke as Holmes and Watson.  The story was based on the canon's "The
Sussex Vampire" albeit somewhat loosly based.

I thought that Brett and Hardwicke were again superb in their portrayal of the
greatest fictional characters of all time (my opinion).  The story was
obviously enlarged greatly to spread it out to two hours worth of prime TV.

As regards comments in this group about Brett's portrayal of Holmes I must
agree with his supporters as to him being my perfect idea of Holmes.  Having
met the man on two occasions when he toured the UK with a Jeremy Paul
adaptation of the life of Sherlock Holmes I can only say that his manner was
charming and he was more than eager to meet and chat with Sherlockian fans
after the show - I can say he is truly interested in Holmes and not just
"playing a part".  Jeremy Paul, by the way, adapted last night's story.

Next week we are being treated to "The Eligible Batchelor", presumably
another slight title change.  I assume we are back to an hour length
episode.  Can I also assume that Granada change the name slightly so as
not to imply that the storyline sticks to the canon implicitly?

Whilst I'm here I can point out to my knowledge that there is no
Sherlock Holmes museum on Baker St (at least not when I last visited) but I
could be (and hope I am) wrong.  Can I suggest that any visitors from the
US undertake the Holmes guided walks provided by several reputable London
Walks agencies which usually begin from Baker St Underground Station - call
into any London Tourist Information Office for details.  If you can't
find Baker St either use the underground (on their map it's easy to find) or
look for Marylebone Road which intersects Baker St at Madame Tussauds
waxworks and the London Planetarium.

Thanks for reading - any comments?   (I am open to e-mail from Sherlockians)

Pete.

P.S. Holmes must be rated highly over here to replace the excellent
Inspector Morse on Wednesday evenings - we had the last ever Morse series
finish last week.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Peter Monks                           Tel:       (UK) 021-414 4601    |
| High Resolution Spectroscopy          Fax:       (UK) 021-414 4577    |
| School of Physics & Space Research    Janet:     P.D.Monks@UK.AC.BHAM |
| The University of Birmingham          Internet:  P.D.Monks@bham.ac.uk |
| Edgbaston                             Starlink:  BHVAD::PDM           |
| Birmingham B15 2TT                                                    |
| UK                                                                    |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Where exactly is Baker St.?
From: g00023@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Eric Hedlund)
Date: 28 Jan 93 12:27:49 -0600
Reply-To: g00023@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
 <1993Jan27.141850.2219@msus1.msus.edu>,<1993Jan28.133350.3334@src.honeywell.com>
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <1993Jan28.133350.3334@src.honeywell.com>,
jkimball@src.honeywell.com (John Kimball) writes:

>I was in London in September and decided to walk to the only address there
>I know by heart; I was pleasantly surprised to find that 221B now
>actually exists -- sort of -- and more or less at the right location.  You
>shouldn't have much trouble finding it, it's in the right block.  It's a
>fairly small facility, but it has a re-creation of the sitting room and
>Holmes' and Watson's bedrooms.  The entrance fee is a bit steep -- 5
>pounds.  I did enjoy the visit, but I'd be interested in how it compares to
>other re-creations of the sitting room.  (There is also a memorabilia shop
>across the street from it.)
>

So there is actually something there!  Fantastic; it looks like I have
yet another thing to see when I'm in London... The list is getting
rather long... :)



(((()   "The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun."    ())))
(() Eric Hedlund           Internet: G00023@Tigger.StCloud.MSUS.edu ())
(() St. Cloud State University  IRC: Morentis   DragonMUD: Morentis ())
(((()      ------------------------------------------------       ())))
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
From: lambert@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Doug Lambert)
Subject: Re: Watson's intelligence
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:48:55 GMT

In article <watson.727981707@mariner.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:
>Memory fails me on specifics here, but it seems to me that the Granada
>TV scripts frequently place in Watson's mouth, lines which are either
>not in the Canon, or were spoken (in the Canon) by others (even Holmes
>himself), thus more than rehabilitating him from the slander of Nigel
>Bruce's Bumbling Fool.
>
>One example from _The_Blue_Carbuncle_: in the scene where Holmes is
>attempting to get Breckenridge to tell him where the goose came from,
>the Canon puts all the dialog as being between Holmes and the
>goose-broker.  But in the Granada version, Holmes indicates that
>Watson is his opponent in the wager.  Watson, after some brief initial
>confusion as to what Holmes wants of him, joins in the deception most
>capably (being a *little* slow on the uptake is, alas, a family trait
>;-).  Can anyone think of more examples of this kind of thing?

In Granada's _The_Norwood_Builder_, Holmes says to his new client
something to the effect that ". . . other than the fact that you are a
solicitor, you are a batchelor, you are a Freemason, and you are an asthmatic
I know nothing about you."  The man then looks around in confusion, and
WATSON explains, after a brief pause to work it out for himself, "From
your large sheaf of papers, your unkempt appearance, your watch fob, and
your labored, irregular breathing."  These may not be the exact quotes--
I don't have my VCR handy, but they're close enough.

I think that translating Sherlock Holmes from print to screen REQUIRES
that Watson be portrayed as fairly intelligent, simply because the
character is less transparent to the audience--that is, in the books
Watson is the lens through which we view Holmes, while on the screen
he is more of an adjunct to Holmes, although he still asks the important
questions.  Having a stupid Watson on the screen distracts from the plot
and from the character Holmes.


===============================================================================
||  Doug Lambert, Purdue University         ||  "God is dead."  --Nietzsche  ||
||  lambert@sage.cc.purdue.edu              ||  "Nietzsche is dead."  --God  ||
===============================================================================
From: axon@synoptics.com (Alan Chamberlain)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Watson's intelligence
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:27:34 GMT
Reply-To: axon@synoptics.com
Organization: SynOptics Communications, Santa Clara CA

re: brett as holmes

for the longest time, i simply assumed that the dramatic scope of the character was 
quite beyond the interpretive range of all actors.  the first time i really felt
i was actually watching Holmes on screen was in the seven-per-cent solution, 
written and directed by nicholas meyer.  of oucrse, this wasn't canon, although 
i did enjoy the treatment.  but nicol williamson was uncanny as a coke-addicted
holmes.  the whole movie was beuatifully staged, incidentally.

but i took this for an anomaly, and continued to believe that *no* actor could
do *doyle's* holmes justice.  when the granada series first came to PBS, i avoided
it, wouldn't watch it, refused to look at it.

somehow about a year ago i was bored, and A&E had the series on, so i left it on.
i was enthralled.  i have become an avid fan of the series, and i am obsessively
(sort of redundant in this group, eh? :-)) taping them for my own future
enjoyment.

my wife and i were discussing this last night.  she believes that brett may
have been born to play homes and would be useless in any other role.  she also
speculates that during shooting, the director directs everyone else, and that 
brett just manifests holmes out of his being without direction.  his interpretation
of the character is just awesome.  

i'm sure there are purists who disdain even brett's interpretation, but for me,
i am just thankful that brett has given real, warm-blooded life to this 
magnificent character.  easily the very best thing on television.
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: "Lady Frances Carfax" on TV
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 19:28:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.155057.3203@crd.ge.com> meltsner@crd.ge.com writes:
>
>
>As an aside, the TV version of _The Disappearance of Lady Carfax_ was
>the most impressive rewrite of Doyle to date -- the original was a
>real stinker, with the only saving grace of being short as well.  The
>TV version, while only loosely based on the original, was a good show.
>
	Boyoboyoboy!  Do we ever disagree on *this* one!  >:-)>  In my opinion,
the adaptation of "Carfax" was the worst one I've ever seen from Grenada.  I'll
agree that the original is not the best story in the Canon (Holmes is
appallingly dim in it, and Watson doesn't fare much better), but the adaptation
of it did nothing to improve on the original.  It even added a gratuitous
downbeat ending.
	I don't object that strongly to Grenada changing the original for the
better (as they did with "The Greek Interpreter", in my view), but when the
result is un-Canonical *and* less viable dramatically, I have no use for it.

>And although it'll probably start a new thread of discussion, what's
>your least favorite story in the Canon?  Having recently read _Carfax_
>for the last Altamont's Agents meeting, its badness blocks out the
>other weak stories we've had to read for the meetings.  Sort of makes
>me wish I had been a member back when they were reading the *good*
>part of the Canon.  [Although the bad stories lend themselves to the
>truly vicious autopsies favored by some of the Agents.]
>
	Probably the aforementioned "Greek Interpreter" or "The Three Gables",
as far as I'm concerned.

The_Doge
From: g00023@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Eric Hedlund)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.holmes
Subject: Re: Where exactly is Baker St.?
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:18:50 GMT
Reply-To: g00023@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <C1IM3u.ELs@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, credmond@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) writes:
>In article <106731@netnews.upenn.edu> batzel@work.seas.upenn.edu (John B. Batzel) writes:
>
>>none of my maps make mention of Baker Street.  Perhaps it doesn't
>>really exist?  
>
>Baker Street certainly exists.  It is today a business district; in
>Holmes's time it was a respectable middle-class area, becoming well
>known because of the construction of Baker Street Station, a busy
>stop for commuter trains.

[directions deleted]

>In Holmes's day the thoroughfare now called Baker Street had several
>names -- Baker Street, Upper Baker Street, York Place -- but the geography
>hasn't changed much.  A further point of interest is that Madame Tussaud's

Isn't it also true that there is a Holmes museum of sorts on Baker
Street under the fictional address of "221b?"  Someone mentioned this
to me a while ago.  Is there any truth to it?  I'll be in Great
Britain in June, and I would like to visit the museum when during my
stay in London..




(((()   "The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun."    ())))
(() Eric Hedlund           Internet: G00023@Tigger.StCloud.MSUS.edu ())
(() St. Cloud State University  IRC: Morentis   DragonMUD: Morentis ())
(((()      ------------------------------------------------       ())))
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Language Origins
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:13:26 GMT

erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier) writes:
>Larry Salomon Jr. writes,
>>Does anyone know from where the Elven and Dwarven languages are derived?
[...]
>I believe Elven languages were mostly influenced by Finnish and Spanish
>(I read this in the biography of Tolkien quite some time ago, so I might not 
>be completely right!), and I assume all languages Tolkien ever created were
>influenced by Welsh because he `fell in love' with that language when he
>read the Welsh names on cargotrains he saw. (correct me if I'm wrong)

He was at pains to point out that it is only the _phonology_ of the
Elvish languages that owe any debt to Finnish/Welsh (Q./S. resp., or
do I have it reversed) and not the structure (_Letters_, passim).

OTOH, the few words of the speech of the Rohirrim in LOTR that are not
translated into the Westron are perfectly good Anglo-Saxon (OTTOMH:
"_Westhu Theoden hal_!" (Hale be thou, Theoden ~ Hail, Theoden)).  The
proper names of course are not attested AS names, but have a distinct
AS flavor.

-- Craig Presson
_Elen si'la lu'menn omentilmo_, a star shines upon the hour of our meeting
OTTOMH == "Off the top of my head"
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:43:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan26.185313.7719@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>
>As I read it, if you have the Ring, it sort of mummifies you-- you
>don't age, and become all stretched out. These effect persist, to an
>extent, even after you lose the Ring (in LOTR, Gollum had been without
>the ring for 80 years, but didn't seem aged). But when the Ring was
>destroyed, all of this was undone.

Gollum would have lived somewhere around 90-100 years without the ring.
I think he could have been a biological 100 year old hobbit in LOTR.  So 
I'm not sure that this example helps.

As another example, Bilbo in the Many Meetings chapter (after Frodo 
first reaches Rivendell) strikes me as a 90-100 year old hobbit, which
is roughly the number of years that he has lived without the ring.

In summary, I don't think that having owned the ring for a short period
confers immortality on you.  I think that ownership of the ring makes
the years in which you own it not count against your age.
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Date: 27 Jan 1993 01:28:00 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

Jeff Liss writes (about The Silmarillion):
>The events in the book really don't get much more than a cursory
>treatment, inspiring though it is.  Do all those other books (The
>Books of Lost Tales, The Last Days of Beleriand) elaborate on these
                        [ ^^^^^^^^^you mean the Lays of Beleriand, eh? ]
>selfsame stories?

I would say yes, but this may be misleading, depending on what you mean by
elaboration.

The "History of Middle-Earth" series, starting from the Book of Lost Tales,
traces the development of JRRT's world through (real) time. So, for example,
the Book of Lost Tales gives the original version (1920's) of what eventually
became The Silmarillion. 

The book published as "The Silmarillion" gives the latest version of those
stories, so naturally it's pretty much consistent with TLotR.

So if you want further details about the late version which you now have read,
the "History of M-E" series won't give them to you.

You might want to check out the "Unfinished Tales" (published soon after the
Sil., before the BoLT). This gives other late writings, consistent (mostly)
with the Silmarillion/LotR. Much of the material in the U.T. is Third Age stuff
related to TLotR (if the Appendices weren't enough for you), but there are
things related to the Silmarillion as well. One of the best parts is a big
elaboration of the story of Turin Turambar.

I hope this helps....

(Does anyone other than me think the story of Turin would make a cool movie?)

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 26 Jan 1993 03:45:33 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

>       'In the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair.  Then Gollum,
>        the evil one, crept up and swept away with her.'

... which takes us back to the beginning of this thread.

I hope this doesn't turn into an endless loop.

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell)
Subject: Gift of Men (was Free Will)
Organization: NCR Corp., Columbia SC
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 18:10:49 GMT

In article <16JAN199302241398@juliet.caltech.edu> waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy) writes:
>One thing that I am surprised nobody seems to have mentioned yet on this
>thread is the gift to Men, the Freedom of Iluvatar.  This section of the

OK...let us begin a new thread...what exactly is the Gift of Men?

I used to think that the Gift of Men was the chance to die *or* the 
ability to leave the Circles of the World after death.

Now, I am thinking that the Gift of Men also includes the free will
to choose between good and evil. Note that elves, orcs, and the like
are portrayed as being totally good or evil. They are not capable of
being otherwise (no flames regarding Feanor please...).

Of course, elves can be deceived into doing evil things, a la Feanor,
but had Feanor understood Melkor's intentions and meddlings, he
may have acted differently.

Other thoughts on this topic?

Feadin