HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: I concede (was Re: Alignments)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:35:00 GMT

O.K. guys, I concede.  Alignments suck.  

Tammy
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: spzkny@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: test
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 31 Aug 1992 08:24 EST  

In article <67276@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU
 (Christopher Michael Lawyer) writes...

>...What do you have to say about that, Mister James S. Zakany???
> 
>the manatee

Aren't manatees gawd-awful UGLY things that lurk in swamps?  Yuck!

                                                  James S. Zakany
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: Rannou@info.polymtl.ca (Patrick Rannou)
Subject: Re: Clarification (was Apology..)
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Canada
	<24AUG199214211215@rosie.uh.edu> <1992Aug24.163944.58365@cc.usu.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:00:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.163944.58365@cc.usu.edu> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:

[...]
   >>> Again, I am REALLY sorry I started this whole thing.
   >> 
   >>Apology accepted.
   > 
   > I don't think that was directed at you either asshole, but
   > I guess vanity thinks everything is for them.

   I don't think any of this even CONCERNS you, asshole, so why don't you
   take your Carly Simon LP's and butt the hell out? How can you be so self-
   important that you think you know anything about this? Maybe you need 
   some remedial reading comprehension or something, but if you'll re-read 
   the post you yourself followed up, you'll find that Burdick apologized to
   the entire net and I don't remember him excluding anybody.

   Have a good one.

Well, I won't call you an asshole but I'll ask you to move it to 
alt.flame or another equally stupid newsgroup, please. This really
doesn't belong at all in rec.frp.advocacy. I'd have tought there would
be some difference between advocacy, which include comments, criticisms,
opinions, maybe a few facts, and of course some flames; and flames, which
includes only flames.

Thank you for your comprehension.

Patrick Rannou.

--
/---------------------------\
| Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
| Rannou@info.polymtl.ca    |
\---------------------------/

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: marrou@cs.ucf.edu (Lance R. Marrou)
Subject: Re: test
Organization: University of Central Florida
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:37:24 GMT

spzkny@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY) writes:

>In article <67276@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU
> (Christopher Michael Lawyer) writes...

>>...What do you have to say about that, Mister James S. Zakany???
>> 
>>the manatee

>Aren't manatees gawd-awful UGLY things that lurk in swamps?  Yuck!

No, they are gawd-awful UGLY things that lurk in boat-infested,
water-skier-diseased coastal waterways, rivers and other such nice
places.  ;>

>                                                  James S. Zakany
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Lance R. Marrou
   Work   - Marrou@IST.UCF.edu
   School - Marrou@Eola.cs.UCF.edu
From: slp66@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Time mechanics
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:06:56 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

This last month I've been playing TONS of AD&D and GURPS.  Great games, great
DMs.  Both have vast differences, both I can compare both in one area: TIME.

In GURPS, one round (or combat period) is one second.  In that one second, you
can attack, aim, move 4 or 5 yards, ect.  In D&D a round is a minute.  You can
attack, move 120 feet (variable--based on lots of stuff, but 120 is average),
ect.  In my opinion, AD&D is better.  Here is why:

The other day, my GURPS group was attacked.  The party was asleep in a building
when the attack hit.  Now, they have to wake up, grab their stuff, put on their
armor, grab a weapon and run to the battle.  According to GURPS mechanics, this
is going to take at least 15 to 25 seconds and that being very generous.  By
that time (TL 7 weapons...guns and gernades and stuff) the fight is over. 
GURPS fights don't last that long.  In D&D, where each round is a minute, hey,
you can be there in 10 rounds...tops.  (Including waking up, putting on armor,
getting your stuff and running to battle.)  

In GURPS, you move so slow (realistic in one second) It's foolish to move. 
You've got to run 6 rounds to get clear of a grenade or morter target
area...thats six rounds which you can easily get nailed by the 5 or 6 enemy
riflemen there.  In D&D, hey, You've got a minute to clear that zone and that
isn't a problem...the bad guy gets one maybe two attacks on you.  Ok, fine,
three if he's lucky but that's a little uncommon.  

D&D is more forgiving and a more playable system.  Your players can afford to
be more realistic and not always having to duke it out for the point
position...simply because the battle will be over by the time he moves up from
the rear in GURPS.  


Matt

-- 

       **********************************************************
       ******          Stranger In A Strange Land          ******
       **********************************************************
From: lazarus@hurricane.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 29 Aug 1992 19:51:19 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hurricane.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <BtnDyL.1HM@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly) writes:
>z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>If you have bad players, find new ones.

We've never had problems with bad players... everyone I've ever played with has
a VERY fertile imagination...

>Marvel is easier to get started, but it suffers from rather lousy definition 
>of powers.

That's where the Ultimate Powers Book (and also Power Stunts) come in.  I know
that it'd be a lot easier to have ALL the knowledge needed for a RPG to come in 
its basic set, but sometimes the best stuff comes up later, and comes out in the
form of supplements.  For Marvel, the UPB is ALMOST a necessity!  Besides it's not
too terribly difficult to say "Hmmm, they never mentioned Phasing.  I'll add that
to my own list of powers."  The Marvel game itself dealt with the mechanics, but
the supplements focused on the finer points.

I can't say anything about Hero, as I've never played that particular game.

>Axly

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
A survivor of the *Prodigy "network"
The 'Cats WILL rule in '92!
Xref: sparky rec.games.frp.advocacy:2029 rec.games.frp.misc:4952
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Friday, 4 Sep 1992 07:47:46 EDT
From: <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject:    WARP WORLD

  I just recently accquired a copy of BTRC's WARP WORLD (traded my copy of
MYTHUS for it-I feel that I got the better deal). I was just wondering if any
of you out there are playing any campaigns with this, and how you like it.
                                   Allen Shock
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:06:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BtnDyL.1HM
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:


>	I put my vote for MSH. A comic RPG shouldn't be a tactical wargame using
>individual units (for some reason refered to as characters) that min-maxers
>bleed for everything they can.
>	Sorry, if this is what I see from Chumpions players, this is how I have
>to view the game.

Any system can be that way. HERO is the best system out there for simulating
superheros and their environment without major editing or modification.
If you have bad players, find new ones.

>ps. MSH is also *a lot* easier to play.

And a Ford Escort is easier to drive than a Ferrari. Get out of the fast lane.
Marvel is easier to get started, but it suffers from rather lousy definition 
of powers. Once again, HERO takes a long time to start up as far as character
generation, but once it gets going it runs as fast as any other.

Axly
From: laird@think.com (Laird Popkin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: GURPS Total Rewrite
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:59:18 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: tiffin.think.com
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
X-XXMessage-ID: <A6C3FDDFA2013590@tiffin.think.com>
X-XXDate: Fri, 28 Aug 92 20:59:27 GMT

Subject: Re: GURPS Total Rewrite
From: Dennis Heffernan, dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:21:15 GMT
In article <1992Aug18.032115.9781@tronsbox.xei.com> Dennis Heffernan,
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com writes:
>In article <14531@borg.cs.unc.edu> bell@pooh.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell)
writes:
>|And what is that measure of utility?  Usefulness in the campaign. 
Strength
>|is generally much more useful to someone in a medieval-style campaign
than
>|it is to a person in a high-tech scenario.  Thus for the equality idea
to
>|be at all meaningful, adjustments in point costs need to be made.
>|
>
>	I disagree.  I've played in (and ran) medieval fantasy campaigns
>wherein it wouldn't have been terribly useful to have been the strongest
man
>in the world, and modern games where being strong could save your life.
>
>	How useful anything is has to do mostly with what the players are
>doing, and they have at least as much say in that as the GM.

As a second disagreement, character points aren't strictly a measure of
utility, but is a combination of effort, utility, frequency of appearance
and play balance.  Stat costs are effected by all of these things.  It's
increasingly difficult to get further and further from "the norm", so the
costs increase.  The increasing costs also help control the distribution
of stats, so that not everyone takes "ST 18" for example -- this serves
the same balance as the GM in Hero who has to step in to stop all of the
players from buying their stats to the racial maximums.

>|>	If ST were COMPLETELY useless, then no one would take it no matter how
>|>cheap it was.
>|
>|Only if you're playing with mini-maxers.
>
>	Sorry, I keep forgeting that the true measure of roleplaying acumen is
>how useless your character is.

If strength truly is iseless, then in that society people wouldn't spend
too much time developing their strength.  The utility of a thing (e.g.
strength, combat reflexes) in a setting helps define how many people in
that setting will choose that thing over others.  So in a violent,
medieval setting there will be many people who work to be strong, whereas
in a peaceful, high-tech setting people won't bother working on their
muscles, but will probably have a great education compared to the
medieval thug.
From: dleland@dante.nmsu.edu (LELAND)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Champions vs Marvel
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:33:31 GMT
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM

If I might make an observation, it seems to me that RPG systems can
be viewed as being like programming languages. Games like HERO are close
to machine language or c, as they go down to the very nuts and bolts
of a game mechanic. To define IRON MAN, for example, you take him apart and
examine exactly what he does in minute detail, from the ground up. This has
the advantage of being very flexible and powerful, but has the disadvantage
of being often cumbersome. Defining a repulsor ray (a multipower with a lot
of slots) is pretty easy. Defining a sheet of ice, however, isn't. You slip
ion it, fall down, hurt yourself, etc. What is it? A DEX drain? A wierd
entangle? etc. HERO is great for defining things that can be broken down into
definitions of purpose. It is much less good at defining things that do not
do one clear thing. 

Games like Marvel, DC heros, D&D and so on, are more specialized. Hero system
makes pretenses at being able to define ANYTHING. These games do not. They are
genre specific and aimed at doing one specific thing. Since their aim is much
smaller, they often define that specific genre very well. They are more like
high level languages like APL or BASIC, where much is already defined for the
programmer (game designer). They do specific things very well that are relevant
to their narrower field. They don't work well for things that don't fit into 
their particular genre. Try to define a superguy type in D&D or Shadowrun.

Please note: this is NOT a value judgement of one or the other. It is an   
observation about the overall design philosophy of the systems.

 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jrbell@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr JR Bell)
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 05:20:12 GMT

: In article <z=g-Kh_@engin.umich.edu> jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey) writes:
: >But has anybody noticed the amount of discussion necessary to define Iron Man's
: >armor?  In virtually _every_ system but Champions, Iron Man's armor is quite
: >a simple device, just something you carry that adds to attributes and gives
: >flight, senses, and ranged attack.  In Champs, you have to debate for a _LONG_
: >time what mechanics and what ads/disads relate to the game.
: 
: True. The primary reason, of course, is that the end result is a much better
: defined set of powers than appears in the comics (the comics are often
: wildly inconsistent over time). Most of the argument is determining exactly
: how the powers work in the comics.
: 
: However, to define something that is CLOSE to Iron Man takes very little
: time : Flight, Armour, senses, ranged attack, all OIF. There, done. I could
: crank out the actual numbers in a couple of minutes.

Not quite....
I have actually played Iron Man in Champions. (I am a huge fan of his).
He can not be simply put down as having the above mentioned powers.
He has about 90% of the powers listed in the book (in one form or another).
(i.e. he has RKA/HKA/SUPPRESS/ABSORPTION/END RESERVE/etc. etc.)


Mephisto.
From: v116qhth@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (I'm not evil...I'm just good looking)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: BattleLords of the 23rd Century
Keywords: BattleLords
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:10:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


  BattleLords of the 23rd Century is the latest in scifi RPG. It has sold
2000 simce this years GenCon! It will be in stores all across the country
in the next month or two, along with Lock n' Load the BattleLords war 
manuel. This is for every BattleLord and ideal for those gamers, from 
any system, who love guns and equipment. It includes weapons, armor, armor
options, and cybernetics as well as misc equipment and info on military
procedures. If you can't find it E-mail me and I will get you a copy.
$20 for the basic book, which is all you need, and $15 for Lock n' Load.

				Shadar the Cruel(Eridani)
				  also
				Simi the ONLY Python Lizard
From: lazarus@kitty.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 27 Aug 1992 00:42:08 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kitty.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <1992Aug26.220743.696@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>	I put my vote for MSH. A comic RPG shouldn't be a tactical wargame using
>individual units (for some reason refered to as characters) that min-maxers
>bleed for everything they can.
>
>	Sorry, if this is what I see from Chumpions players, this is how I have
>to view the game.
>
>Brandon Cope
>
>ps. MSH is also *a lot* easier to play.

I'll have to agree.  One of the arguements that I got into with one guy was his
arguement that he hated having to memorize charts, something he didn't have to do
in Chumps.  I'm sorry, the last time I looked through a Chumpions RPG book, there
were enough charts to choke on!  Besides, I'd prefer to flip through my reference
material (I.E. the game RULES) and look up a chart as opposed to trying to 
memorize each and every number.

Another merit that Marvel holds over Chumps is character creation.  Yes, Marvel
can be too lax when it comes to having overly powerful characters, but I THINK
that maybe the Game Master should be able to look over a character after its
creation and tell the player to tone it down a bit.  After all it IS the GM's
responsibility!

Put me down as a vote FOR the Marvel Super Heroes RPG (Advanced edition, of
course).

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
A survivor of the *Prodigy "network"
The 'Cats WILL rule in '92!
From: spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: test
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  2 Sep 1992 11:43 EST  

In article <warnold.715361417@nomad.urich.edu>,
 warnold@gossip.urich.edu (William W. Arnold) writes...

>>>>the manatee

>>>Aren't manatees gawd-awful UGLY things that lurk in swamps?  Yuck!

>No, they're the CUTE things that make boat-infested,
>water-skier-diseased coastal waterways, rivers and other such places
>nice.

CUTE??!?  They're 'bout as cute as breaded, bearded dwarfin women!

                                                  James S. Zakany
From: millerl@wharton.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:31:08 GMT
Organization: Newt World Order

I think that DJ/M will succeed.

Not because it's a quantum leap ahead of other game systems. Not because it's
the most complicated game system out there, though it's pretty close to
Chartmaster in that vein.

Why?

Because they're cross-marketing it like crazy. The computer game is
almost ready, and includes GM support in it. They will publish books in
the world on an aggressive schedule. They will publish modules
aggressively. The DJ/M line is well financed and can afford a long
startup time. The game is also very complete, and that appeals to the
gamers who like ultra-complete games with systems for everything that
could possibly happen like AD&Dv1 and Chartmaster and Living
Steel--they're called Rules Lawyers and they like nothing more than a
mass of rules to hide in.

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Subject: Re: marvel
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481 
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:10:17 GMT

In article <c1cnhj#.akuma@netcom.com> akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) writes:
>
[Lots deleted]

>I admit that Champions combat can get a bit slow, but there are ways
>to streamline things.  I'll go into it if you want...
	Would you, please?  I'm a beginning Hero System GM (we're actually
playing a high level Fantasy Hero game, but...) and I can't seem to figure
out exactly how to speed combat up without losing anything.  I'd really
appreciate the info if ya don't mind.
>
>-steve
			Laura Mollett
From: lazarus@hurricane.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 29 Aug 1992 19:33:55 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hurricane.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <chcn3nh.akuma@netcom.com>, akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) writes:
>Are you telling me GMs in Champs can't look over characters and order
>changes?

I never said THAT... but the general gist I got from the Chumps advocate was that
the GM shouldn't HAVE to proofread a character sheet.  >;)

>Another problem with MuSH is enforced morality: "kill a man, lose your
>Karma; it's the Law."  Then there is the whole idea of spending Karma
>(permanantly) to boost a dice roll.  Bleah.

This is a good argument for "house rules", a term that should be able to be
applied to ANY RPG.  If there's a rule you don't like in the game, change it or
remove it.  However, losing Karma for killing makes sense; the player characters
are supposed to be heroes, and a hero who kills is frowned upon by all save a few.
(What makes Wolverine so special?  Beats me.)  Karma spending on rolls would also
be less prevalent if it's made clear that the Karma can also be spent (no less
permanently) to improve the FASERIP, or any Power score.  (Here's where OUR house
rules came in: we altered the mathematics of boosting scores, and made it a tad
bit easier to advance a character.)  If a player knows this, he'll be a lot less
likely to squander his Karma Points trying to turn a White FEAT into a Red...

>-steve

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
A survivor of the *Prodigy "network"
The 'Cats WILL rule in '92!
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
Date: 30 Aug 92 01:02:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: ecst.1992Aug30.010231.21804
Organization: California State University, Chico

Bart Smith writes:
>Steven E Barnes writes:
>>GMs in Champs can't look over characters and order changes?
>
>I never said THAT... but the gist I got from the Chumps advocate was that
>the GM shouldn't HAVE to proofread a character sheet.  >;)

Huh?!? I hope *I'm* not the advocate you're paraphrasing.... My opinion on
this is that the referee should always go over the character concept, then
the implementation of the design (the character writeup). Always.

We can play semantic games wrt: 'proofreading.' I don't think it means 
going over it and making sure all the "i"s are dotted and the "t"s are 
crossed. However, the character should work out to be close to the player's
concept as presented to the referee. Moreover, the concept should work out
wrt the established campaign and other players' characters.

>>Another problem with MuSH is enforced morality: 
>
>This is a good argument for "house rules", a term that should be able to be
>applied to ANY RPG.  If there's a rule you don't like in the game, change it or
>remove it.  

Amen. The only thing that is unchangable about the game is one rule: what the
referee says, goes. Anything else is fluff and chrome.

(I can see another thread starting from that statement very easily.....)

-- 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
		-- Eleanor Roosevelt
Organization: Penn $tate Univer$ity
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 09:06:28 EDT
From: Brian Panulla, MooCow <BJP108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel
 <marrou.714244942@eola.cs.ucf.edu> <17hpvgINNs2o@kitty.ksu.ksu.edu>
 <chcn3nh.akuma@netcom.com>

In article <chcn3nh.akuma@netcom.com>, akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) says:
>
(Apologies in advance if I miss-attribute a quote.)

>The problem I have with MuSH is that the mechanics are too simple.
>Foor example: a character like Spiderman is just as easy to hit
>as the Hulk, unless Spiderman spends his action dodging (and thus
>never attacking anybody).
>

Ummm...Make a Yellow Agility feat to take multiple actions...or haven't
you graduated to the advanced rules?

>
>> Another merit that Marvel holds over Chumps is character creation.  Yes,
>Marvel
>> can be too lax when it comes to having overly powerful characters, but I    K
>THIN
>> that maybe the Game Master should be able to look over a character after its
>> creation and tell the player to tone it down a bit.  After all it IS the
>GM's
>> responsibility!
>
>Are you telling me GMs in Champs can't look over characters and order
>changes?
>
>Another problem with MuSH is enforced morality: "kill a man, lose your
>Karma; it's the Law."  Then there is the whole idea of spending Karma
>(permanantly) to boost a dice roll.  Bleah.

I'm not too crazy about this either, but it keeps my players from being
unheroic.

>
>-steve
______
Brian Panulla                                              Hail Sinfonia!
bjp108 @ psuvm.psu.edu / ender @ vivaldi.psu.edu / ender @ wilbur.psu.edu
(The opinions expressed above are mine alone, and do not reflect those of)
(Penn State University, or the Center for Academic Computing, so there!  )
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy