HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zeylim@rpi.edu (nobody in particular)
Subject: Re: Fencing at RPI
Reply-To: zeylim@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Pyrotechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:27:34 GMT


In article <1992Dec11.214311.24901@crd.ge.com>, sprattli@azores.crd.ge.com (Rod Sprattling) writes:
|> RPI Fencers: is your salle open only to RPI students?  If
|> not, whom should I contact for more information on instruction
|> and club events?

no, the club is open to anybody who's willing to show up.
for more information, you should e-mail one of the following people:

Bill Johnson (tres) johnsw3@rpi.edu
Bill Glass (vp) glassw@rpi.edu
Andreas Faber (pres) fabera@rpi.edu


-me

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Mike Zeylikman | "Vital papers will demonstrate their vitality by         |
|    "Z-man"     | spontaneously moving from where you left them to where   |
| zeylim@rpi.edu | you can't find them."                                    |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: tournament software
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:21:45 GMT
Organization: FAA / Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center

Ok, we're a bunch of fencing type people and, apparently, computer
folks as well.  What's the best tournament scheduling software out
there, is there any that is free, and is anyone currently working on a
new system?  At times I've had friends tell me they were either
working on or looking for a Mac hypercard stack for managing
tournaments, and I've seen the software used at nationals and a few
sectionals.  In the grand tradition of the internet, anyone interested
in banning together to come up with something flexible and free?


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: guth@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G.Guth)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:08:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.135824.7170@dutrun2.tudelft.nl> edwin@dutlru.tudelft.nl (Edwin Wisse) writes:
>
>There already *is* an sca group! (So why don't the swordfighters go there?)
>
Because we sca dancers won't let them back!  :-)

For the record, I'm in the SCA, and I've done modern competitive fencing off
and on as well.  So far the broadsword fighting hasn't interested me, but
who's to say that something I read here won't spark an interest in some other
aspect of swordfighting besides modern foil/sabre/epee?

The worst that can happen is that you'll get a big kill file...

Geoff.
From: nyden@wdl30.wdl.loral.com (William Nyden)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Off the strip
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:59:31 GMT
Organization: Space Systems/Loral

In article <BzD3n3.1Cx@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
>Ok, here goes.  Here's something that I've found to have various
>interpretations depending on who you ask, though the rules are *fairly*
>clear on this issue.  I was directing in this situation and got in an
>argument with a very upset fencer and two fairly well respected
>members of the bout committee over this one (one fencer came away
>happy though :-).
>
>In a semi-final bout, score tied at 4-4.  Fencer A finds him/her self
>at the rear limit of the strip.  Fencer B advances, causing Fencer A
>to retreat with haste, landing his back foot well behind the rear
>limit, front foot in the air.  This fencer (A) then thrusts and lands,
>with Fencer B counter thrusting and also landing, no blade contact
>between them.  A halt is called while Fencer A's front foot is in the
>air, and then Fencer A's front foot comes down on the rear limit line
>after the halt.  What's the call?
>
>  a) Fencer A loses because he/she was off the strip and the attack is
>     invalid, or
>
>  b) Fencer A wins because the attack was valid since both feet
>     were not off the strip.
>
>  c) some other interpretation...
>
The rules are very clear:  if the fencer is off the strip with both feet,
he/she cannot score, but can be scored upon.  The question is, what 
constitutes off the strip with both feet?  As a director, my interpretation
has always been that there is a vertical plane defined at the edge (end) of
the piste.  If the entire foot is beyond that plane, whether on or off the
ground, the fencer is off the strip.

The only person who can make the call, however, is the director.  And the
call cannot be questioned.

-- 
 Bill Nyden                          |    I do not officially represent anyone
  ( nyden@orca.ssd.loral.com )       |    other than myself on this network...
   SSI DiveCon 0006DC                |    ...and sometimes not even me.
   Nullum prandium gratuitum         | 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 20:20:32 GMT

In article <1gberfINN3lq@smurf.sti.com>, alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
|> In article <10DEC199216242161@rosie.uh.edu>, mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman) writes:
|> ] 
|> ] Anybody out there know how to clean leather gloves, particularly the really
|> ] soft foil varieties? How about lames? I've tried cleaning mine with a soft
|> ] cloth and the mildest dishwashing soap around, then drying it in the sun on
|> ] a deck-chair or something flat. Doesn't work for the really big stains, though
|> 
|> In a word (OK, three words):
|> 
|> 	Try saddle soap.
|> 
|> (Trust me.  I'm a saddler, among other things.)
|> 
|> For the gloves, my recommended technique is:
|> 	(1)	Put the gloves on.
|> 	(2)	Wearing the gloves, wash your hands with saddle soap.
|> 		(Use warm water, but NOT hot.)
|> 	(3)	Keep the gloves on until they're completely dry.
|> 
|> 
|> -- 
|>       "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
|>     ......................................................................
|>     Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
|>       PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
|>            Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key


An oil soap like 'Murphie's' might also do a good job (diluted of course).
Rubbing small amounts (I assume you don't want your fencing gloves getting
too slick) of neatsfoot or mink oil will help to keep the leather supple
despite the repeated washings.

Rick C.
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: A fencing life (was Re: Drop Outs)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 03:32:28 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com
Keywords: fencers

In article <1992Dec14.005312.21145@rtsg.mot.com>, svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
] And has anyone ever found themselves:
] 
] 	[...]
] 
] (Any more? :)

How about visualizing and 'trying out' an attack, in the air, that has
just popped into one's mind....

	....in the middle of the office?


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda)
Subject: Re: The "Yahoo" factor (was Re: French Grips)
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:10:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.035259.19479@rock.concert.net> alight@rock.concert.net (Alan R Light -- Personal Account) writes:
|In article <8707.11791@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM> jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman) writes:
|
|>Seriously, though, if you're ever doing informal fencing,
|>beware of the Yahoo Factor. 
|
|Amen to that!  I've learned not to even let somebody hold a foil.
|It's unbelievable how they want to go around, and nearly poke out
|some eyes -- even a foil is dangerous without ANY protection.
|
|If someone wants to hold the foil now, I first show them how to
|hold it, what not to do, and most importanly keep a mask and foil
|handy so I can disarm them if they get reckless.  Sure, they have
|complete control of the blade -- most of the time, except when
|they misjudge by an inch when they were going to stop 1/2 an inch
|away from someone's face.

You folks maybe have antisocial friends?  I have fencing equipment
lying around my livingroom quite often (and a golf ball hung by a
string from the ceiling), and while people are often interested,
none EVER have tried to "play fencer" and become dangerous.  I do
instruct a person how to hold the blade, etc, if he or she wants
to poke at the ball for a while, but I rarely make it a safety
lesson.  Never saw the need.  

A foil is a peice of safety equipment, just like a hockey stick 
is.  If a guest of mine picks up my hockey stick and starts 
body-checking other guests, well, I wouldn't be shy about 
escorting him or her out the door.  But I've never had a guest
do anything like that.

(Actually, with the golf ball hanging from the ceiling, I usually
hit it five or six times, full lunge, with an epee, then hand a 
foil to them and let them get frustrated for the next five 
minutes. :-)

		Dave Svoboda
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: quigley@boston.sinet.slb.com (Joe Quigley)
Subject: Re: crosstraining and weight training
Reply-To: quigley@boston.sinet.slb.com (Joe Quigley)
Organization: Schlumberger Technologies CAD/CAM Division
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:35:49 GMT


In recent years I have found that fencing alone is not good enough for
continued development in my fencing.  I had a sports trainer explain that
even cross-traning with the same activity like biking or rowing is not
enough.  The more you mix it up, the better in the long run and faster your
development in your main sport.  In my case, I am 38 years old and emphasis MANAGEMENT of old fencing injuries in my cross-training as well as cardiovascular DEVELOPMENT.  I set target rates and final goals in terms of c

The subject of weight training was once a boring subject, but now boring is
the farthest thing from my mind.  The benfits I see is given a stronger body implies more control, less injuries, i.e., you can take an acidental harder hit and not be bother, greater stability, greater endurance and greater flexibility.
My caveat being, if you of course you have a good weight training program.
And from my view, weight training programs are different for each persons needs.
I my case, I use a mix Nautilus and a few free weights.  The Nautilus machines
let me develop long-flexible muscle and endurance at the same time.  I emphasis
for each station a warm-up set at 50-60% of my maximum weight and then two sets
that I call my working sets.  For explosiveness, I complete two more sets each for quads and ham-strings that progressively increase.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:37:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <BzB5G0.12w@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu> ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:
>Funny, I thought this was rec.sport.fencing, not rec.sport.fighting.
>After all, does anyone *really* consider SCA fighting fencing?

Yes, I do. I also consider kendo and SCA rapier combat to be
fencing. I am not a modern sport fencer, or a kendo student.
I do fight both broadsword and rapier (occasionally) however.

>I am very disappointed by what I've seen in this newsgroup so far.  I
>was looking forward to discussions on competitive fencing, but a
>mental guesstimate says the discussions are 50/50 fencing vs.
>broadsword fighting.

You are upset because not every posting to the group is what
you want to read...Use the N key, or start a mailing list
or moderated group.

>I missed the first few days of the newsgroup, I think, so I'm not sure
>of what the charter is here.  So as not to go on and on about my
>personal preferences, perhaps I can spark some discussion on what this
>newsgroup is all about.

Laudable, but if 50% of the postings have to do with broadswords,
you can bet that broadswords is what this group is "all about"
or at least what it's partly about.

>How 'bout (pun intended) a straw poll:  
>    a) How many competitive fencers don't want to see SCA related
>       discussions, 
>
>    b) How many SCA'ists don't want to see competitive fencing related
>       discussion, 

I want to see *all* discussion that relates to the fine art of 
stabbing/slashing/cutting someone with a sword...I learn new
things about my art (sca broadsword and shield) from the
competitive foil threads...

>    c) how many want both to continue in the same group.

I do, absolutely. I'm being exposed to fascinating new viewpoints
on technique and tactics. Being told to go away would irk me
enormously.

I realise that you are attempting to be reasonable and
considerate.

I wish to point out, however, that you come dangerously close
to playing net.cop on this, and that is seldom a good idea.

Charles Parr
Carolus Malvoix

-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Fencing IS a sport (was: Re: French grips suck!)
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:25:29 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

[draw cuts, sport aspects, comparisons to Attila the Hun...]

Funny thing, but I always actually appreciated the really
rough fencers.  The guy who tried to put his foil through my
back from the front, "Mr. DoubleTouch" (who always added a
shuffle and *second* touch right after the first, just to
assure himself it was good), and various other Nasty
Customers.  Why?  They gave me *motivation* to get good.
Folks always said I fenced my best, when I was up against one
of these guys.  If you think you might suffer an Unpleasant
Consequence, it gives you the extra motivation to parry, to
make sure you get *your* attack in before then start their
advance...  Pain is an especially good motivator.  It
certainly taught me the value of parrying, of keeping my guard
up in Chinese boxing, etc.  

If you eliminate all the aspects along this line, do you get a
bunch of ho-hum fencers?  I've always wondered, because I
always accelerated my skill level when I was fencing against a
somewhat menacing opponent.  (I didn't say I *liked* it, but
it certainly kept me on my toes!  And I liked the results.)
--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stuart M Castergine)
Subject: Re: Fencing equipment (was: Re: Fencing is here? Incredible!!)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:25:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.184202.4332@cbnewse.cb.att.com> dvarney@cbnewse.cb.att.com (doug.w.varney) writes:
>
>It is interesting how fast the FIE equipment (Jackets and
>Knickers) have caught on.  At the NAC in Louisville practically
>everyone in the Mens Epee event had FIE equipment (as compared 
>to only those fencing in Europe a couple years ago).
>
>Does anyone have info on the effective lifetime of FIE Jackets?
>

I'm sure it is all very protective and all, but unless you have some
reason to think you are going to be competing in international
competition (and most of us don't) I don't see any reason to pay the
exorbitant prices for FIE equipment.

Add the care and longevity problems of Kevlar in, and it is just a
loser unless you are a serious fencer. FIE equipment may be safer, but
the old standard was perfectly safe, if you had well-maintained
equipment. I can afford to have well-maintained conventional
equipment, but I think I would actually be less safe in FIE equipment
in the long term, because it is so expensive I would be tempted to
stretch it beyond its useful life.




-- 
scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu -- Stuart M. Castergine
Fiver: "Oh, Hazel, look! The field! It's covered with blood!"
Hazel: "Don't be silly, it's only the light of the sunset." -- Watership Down
From: barbeau@io.eecs.umich.edu (Chris Barbeau)
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:25:29 GMT

In article <37839@cbmvax.commodore.com> jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes:
>
>	Most blades are made to flex parallel to the flat (or at least flex
>the best there), while resisting flex when hit on edge, for fairly obvious
>reasons.  Also, think about force/area of a hit on the edge versus a hit
>on the flat - you _never_ want to parry with the edge unless you plan on
>sawing your opponent to death... :-)  Another point you may have missed in
>the above passage: you don't want to meet the attack dead-on, you want to
>meet it at an angle, so it hits and slides or bounces up or down the
>blade - i.e. deflect it, not stop it with brute force (very different that
>most stage broadsword fencing I've seen).  This uses the momentum of the
>attack to open the attacker up to a riposte (cut or thrust).  Certain types
>of parries can lead to a single (circular) motion that is both a parry and
>a riposte.

Most stage combat involves parrys that are as square as possible for two
reasons.  1)  Actors are not trained combatants and are often less than
athletically inclined, so it is safest for maintaining control of the blade
(especially in heavy weapons) to simply have the blades come to a stop.  2)
Wider weapons are subject to considerable rotational torque when meeting 
a slice such that the flat is at an angle (with respect to the cutting plane)
of the attacking weapon.  This rotational torque is transmitted directly 
to the tang (focused at the meeting point of the threads and the pommel) and
repeated impacts simply cause the blade to fatigue and break.  Edge on edge
impacts (which are deliberately broadened on stage weapons) minimize this
degredation of the blade (which must last us for considerable lengths of time
when they are $250-$600 a pop and we all hate wooden ones!!!!!)

A perfect parry with the flat at an angle such that
the cutting weapons is merely deflected is very difficult to accomplish, again
harkening back to actors usually being less than practiced with weaponry.

As an additional note, we do deflective parries ("Hanging parries") in 
theatrical combat, just not as frequently given the material (actor) that 
we are working with...

-- 

ccb@um.cc.umich.edu        . o        c ,  The illusion of free will is useful  
barbeau@io.eecs.umich.edu  `'#+--  --+#`'  to the politicians, but too bad it
73210,3722@compuserve       /'>      <`\   doesn't really exist.
From: jane@soave.swdc.stratus.com (Jane Beckman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: apologies (was thrust vs. cut)
Date: 15 Dec 92 01:53:07 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

A heavy
>weapon swung at arm's length is going to have a hell of a lot more 
>momentum than one that is simply thust with the arm.  
Momentum, yes, but not necessarily force.  Often, force at a
distance can be incorrectly applied due to lack of control.
This is why tight moves are favored in most martial arts.
Full extention is not recommended.  Actually, what you want is
keeping the elbows fairly close to the body, but putting a
full body swing in.  
>
>Secondly, a good thrust is done with the legs, not the arm.  If you
>are into Cavalry sabre, the power probably comes from your horse.  Try 
>stiff-arming the bowling ball on the run, or on a lunge.  

This assumes you have your body behind your hand/arm,
something not possible on a horse.  (Jousting is a special
case, involving a long, fixed lance in a harness.) 

An observation on Cavalry sabre: there's more to it.  I've
done cuts on large winter squash with a sabre, and if you were
to purely use the horse's momentum, you can wreck your body
and possibly unseat yourself.  Especially stiff-arming.
However, yes, force and momentum are your friends.  As you
approach the target, your arm should be slightly bent,
sabre shoulder slightly back.  As the sword moves out, the
elbow should be kept bent and near to the body.  This may
necessitate leaning a ways out from the shoulder.  As the
target nears, the body should "uncoil" so that the primary
shearing force comes from the shoulder and twist of the upper
torso, connecting with the target as your shoulder twists to
"point" to front.  Do it right, and the top of the squash
flies off.  Do it wrong (stiff arm, no twist, reach too long),
and you will at least hurt yourself, if you don't dislocate
your shoulder.  (Trust me on this one, I've had personal
experience with both right and wrong technique.)

(I know some of you folks have seen sabre battles on horseback
in the movies, or possibly at Civil War battles and the like.
This is called "staging."  This high-reaching clatter of
blades is to assure no one gets hurt, and please the audience.
When folks in our Civil War group forget and do it right, we
have had real injuries.  They try very hard, now, not to put
any real force or momentum into these "sabre battles.")


--
  Jilara   [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

"The field of pseudo-science hasn't progressed much in ten
years, except to gain access to the net." --from ca.earthquakes
From: GE.DWS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Drew W. Saunders)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 11 Dec 1992 16:28:53 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1g33jdINN6j8@smurf.sti.com>,
alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
>To me, by the way, a "real sword" means something like my claymore...
>or my 1725-pattern Scots basket-hilted broadsword...  or my Italian
>Renaissance-style swept-hilt rapier (which is almost more an estoc)...
>or my wife's 1845 British artillery sword...  or (drool, drool) a
>*real* katana (not the trashy mass-produced WWII-era junk).
>And none of these has anything even close to a French hilt.
>

Yes, the real Katana is better than the WW II mass produced variety,
I have one of each.  The real one is much heavier and razor sharp.
It even has what appears to be blood stains (distinctive rust
patterns) from previous use (I can't afford a proper clean and
sharpen, it did only cost me $75, man was I happy to find someone
who didn't know what he had.)  It is a very plain one, however, but
the blade is nice, and one can see the fine grain of the steel in it
(apparently it was never very well polished, perhaps is was an
apprentice's first or second real blade, or made in haste, don't
know.)

For the pistol grip.  Think of how one might hold a pistol, and how
one would hold a french grip (thumb and index finger only) and
combine these in your mind.  Better yet, try to find one to inspect
first hand.

Drew