From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:32:14 GMT

	Howdy. 

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>>Besides, I can create a corp character easily using the rules. The question
>>is, whether my GM will run a campaign where all those non-combat skills will
>>be needed and helpful.
>
>Well, he better not run any of the modules, or use all that -lovely- hardware
>listed in books, 90% of which is there to make one a better killing machine.

	Uh, Chris - you just argued below that one cannot use the published 
modules to judge GURPS CP. I think that saying that you can judge SR based 
on its modules is hypocritical in the extreme. 

>
>Look, one can do very interesting campaigns set in -any- universe, if one is
>willing to work at it. This is a net.axiom. But, IMHO, the ShadowRun universe
>is derivative, phony-feeling, and lacking in depth, with almost everything
>designed around the bloody 'Shadowrun' player coercion method. 
>
>Even if people like you run good adventures/campaigns/whatevers, I have never,
>myself, seen any SR game run as anything more than AD&D with guns. 

	So what's your point - games which you personally don't see are not 
valid? I have seen more bad GURPS games than good, but I don't think this 
indicates that the system encourages lack of thought. 

	The GURPS *system*, IMO, is a decent one which suffers from massive 
overcomplication. The GURPS Cyberpunk book, IMO, has a very good Netrunning 
and background ideas, but lousy cyberware and equipment. 
	The Shadowrun *system*, IMO, is awful and even playable only by 
lots of rules patches - somewhat improved in SRII, but not enough. It *is* 
'cinematic' in its handling of many things, but I don't think that is at 
all outside of genre. The SR *world* is quite good, IMO - coherent while 
still having lots of fantastic stuff and interesting ideas. 

	Actually, when I decided to run a Cyberpunk campaign, I chose 
Twilight 2k (1st Ed) as it gave me the deadly, realistic-feeling combat, 
and did not get in the way of role-playing. 

>
><sigh> The GURPS CP adventure book is irrelevant, as GURPS CP != GURPS CP 
>Adventures. 
>What I'm talking about here is how Shadowrun is wrapped around a basically 
>flawed idea, that of 'Shadowrunning', which then influences everything 
>else, and leads to a flawed background and game system. 

	'Shadowrunning' is indeed mentioned alot in the SR rules, for 
beginning players to get a handle on adventures. In a similar way, 'arche-
types' are provided for beginning players who don't want to mess with 
character creation yet. This is a minor annoyance for advanced players 
who don't want that sort of thing, but easily ignored (like the random 
reaction rolls in GURPS). 
	OTOH, I think it is extremely useful for beginning players, who - 
if given GURPS and GURPS CP - would quickly find themselves buried under a 
ton of rules just for character creation, and with no clear ideas for what 
to do. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy