HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: teener@apple.com (Michael Teener)
Subject: Re: Lorans on leaseback
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:15:32 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer
Followup-To: rec.aviation.owning

In article <11NOV199221585739@tgv.com>, adelman@tgv.com (Kenneth Adelman)
wrote:
> 
>     Does anyone have any experience with lorans in a leaseback?  We're
> planning on adding a cheap VFR loran to a leaseback Cessna 150 and the
> current choice seems to Flybuddy, but we're concerned that the
> database card may not stay with the plane.  Comments?  Ideas on how to
> secure the card?

Hi, Ken ...

The Flybuddy has an internal database that includes all of North America,
but only VORs and airports, with only the locations programmed. The
database cards add heliports and lots of airport info (runway, freqs,
etc.). I'm not certain whether it has NDBs or intersections, though. I've
been using the internal database on my Flybuddy with reasonable success for
the last year and a half and don't really feel the need for the extra
information.

>     Also, I remember reading raves about some avionics shop in San
> Jose, CA; anyone remember the name of it?

I had the FlyBuddy installed by Advanced Aircraft Services at SJC. They
seemed like competent types ... and I've had no problems with the Flybuddy
(or the clock they also installed).

> 							Ken

===== Michael Teener, Plumbing Architect, Apple Computer, Inc. =====
================ teener@apple.com == 408-974-3521 ==================
======== Cheetah N9900U (the one with the crazy paint job) =========
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: ege@max.fiu.edu (Dr. Raimund K. Ege)
Subject: Re: Aerospatiale Aircraft
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 19:15:47 GMT

In article <5758@rosie.NeXT.COM>, amm@NeXT.COM (Alan M. Marcum) writes:
|> Jeffrey Dunkle writes
   ... opinions on the plane are mixed to good.  Also, one of
   ...

Recently, I got checked out in a new Aerospatiale TB-9 Tampico and
was not very impressed. For example: my instructor wanted to
demonstrate that the plane would just drop like an autumn leaf
after a complete stall - not true, we went into a scary dive,
almost inverted. Another observation: when approaching to land,
we had to keep the speed up, otherwise the descent speed increased
dramatically (short wings?). And the topper: while practicing
a soft field landing (keeping the nose off the ground) the tail
cone scraped the runway, which was very unnerving, indeed.
And, there was some wind noise from the doors, which
seemed to come and go for no reason.
And, after reading a lot about the interior of the Aerospatiale,
I was disappointed: yes, the panel is nice, but the seats are
barely adjustable (just back and forth, the seat back angle is fixed);
also, the flap switch was the old Cessna-type where you have to
watch an indicator for the correct position.

-- 
Raimund K. Ege                             School of Computer Science
                                             Florida Int'l University
ege@scs.fiu.edu           (305) 348-3381              University Park
ege@servax.bitnet     FAX (305) 348-3549              Miami, FL 33199
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: looking for handheld
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:59:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

RF> .    Be warned, I have a Garmin AVD55 handheld that I am going to return
  > .becuase it will not function with my King DME operating.

RF> .    Soon as the DME starts transponding, all sats are lost.

RF> .   I,d much rather use my DME in IFR than the GPS !!!

You're the exception to the rule.  I know several people with Garmin 55
and 100s, and they all swear by them.  None of them have experienced any
interference between DME (or anything else) and GPS.

If I were you, I'd check the DME installation.  You might have a bad
installation on the DME, dumping excessive levels of RF into the
cockpit, near the antenna.  Or possibly a defective cable on the Garmin.

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
             
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggest
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 21:36:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.171903.26279@netnews.synoptics.com> franks@synoptics.com writes:
>Oooooo!  I knew I was going to start something when I jumped in here!
>
>I guess maybe we did get lucky.  We bought our baby 3 years ago
>next March in Lodi, CA.   As far as 172s go, she is not amazing
>(1960 'A' model, non-IFR, ~2500 on the airframe and ~1200 on
>the engine).  The Tri-Pacer that we almost bought was certainly
>in excellent shape and in general I'd have to agree that for $14K
>you have a much better chance in finding a Tri-Pacer than a 172.

Yep, you got lucky. A friend of mine just sold his 172 with 1500 total
hours since new, original everything, and the infamous fresh annual for
$24,000. Even with no damage history, that's a nearly run-out engine in
a VFR plane that needs modern radio gear and a new paint job. Knowing
Shaggy's opinion of the FAA, it probably also needs some AD work.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | The origin of the English slang term "boffin"
                    | for scientist is not known; however, it has been
George Patterson -  | pointed out that the eggs of the Puffin are perfect
                    | obloids which always return to the same position
                    | if pushed and that this is also true of the ideas
                    | expressed by boffins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: fraser@mdd.comm.mot.com (Cameron Fraser)
Subject: future of 100LL avgas
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:01:45 GMT


i read an article recently referring to the phasing out of 100LL avgas over
the next few years & it implied this was an issue but only for the larger 
and/or supercharged engines. being in the middle of buying an 77 warrior 
(O-320, 150hp) that is currently running on (and placarded for) 100LL 
i'm wondering what my options are for that engine? 
Was this engine originally running 80 and thus eligible for autogas or
equivalent?

thanks in advance...
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cameron Fraser          fraser@mdd.comm.mot.com
Mobile Data Division    (604) 241-6092        (604) 241-6030 FAX
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA  (800)-999-8279 CDN    (800) 678-7634 USA
From: dls@freedom.genrad.com (Diana L. Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggest
Date: 12 Nov 1992 07:34:12 -0500
Organization: GenRad, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: freedom.genrad.com

In article <1992Nov11.213629.24812@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.171903.26279@netnews.synoptics.com> franks@synoptics.com writes:
>>Oooooo!  I knew I was going to start something when I jumped in here!
>
>Yep, you got lucky. A friend of mine just sold his 172 with 1500 total
>hours since new, original everything, and the infamous fresh annual for
>$24,000. Even with no damage history, that's a nearly run-out engine in
>a VFR plane that needs modern radio gear and a new paint job. Knowing
>Shaggy's opinion of the FAA, it probably also needs some AD work.

We just had to "buy out" our partners in the airplane that my husband was
part-owner in.  The plane is fully IFR rated with a new Loran, intercom and
DME in it.  The quoted price for this 1979 C172P was $33,000.  Luckily, since
we were part owners in it, we didn't have to pay that much :-).

Diana

-- 
->Diana L. (Syriac) Carlson dls@genrad.com	Ham: KC1SP (Sweet Pea)      <-
->I'D RATHER BE FLYING!	P-ASEL, INST		CAP: CPT, Freedom 690 Mobile<-
->AD ASTRA, PER ASPERA				Airplane: C-172 N6513E	    <-
->GenRad, MS/6, 300 Baker Ave, Concord, Mass.  01742  (508)369-4400 x2459   <-
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggest
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:43:14 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1992Nov11.171903.26279@netnews.synoptics.com>, 
franks@synoptics.com (Frank Stutzman) writes:
> Hey, can some Cessnoids help me out here?  I'm being beseiged
> by the Piper contingent!   Mr. Hernandon, where are you when I
> need you?  ;-)

I find it hard to imagine a Tri-Pacer out cruising a late model 172.

BTW my first ride in a light airplane (any airplane at all for that
matter) was in a 135 HP Flying Milk-stool.  Neat airplane.

Go get yourself a Stinson 108-3 or -2 and get the speed of a 172, with
a big useful load and the best harmonized controls this side of
Alexandria, Mn...

Make that close to the speed of a late model 172..., but faster than
a C-170 or TriPacer, or Pacer for that matter.


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com
SHO  GOZE
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: franks@synoptics.com (Frank Stutzman)
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggesti
Reply-To: franks@synoptics.com
Organization: Synoptics Inc. Santa Clara, California.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:59:31 GMT


OK, now a word from Cessna camp ;-)

In article 3NOV199213344047@mars.lerc.nasa.gov, fskevin@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Kevin R. Kirtley (SVER)) writes:
>How Cheap?  The cheapest is by far the Piper TriPacer. It will outperform
>a C-172 slightly but leg room in the back is lacking. $14,000 will get you a
>nice one and don't be afraid of fabric airplanes; they don't disintegrate.

Before we bought 70T (which, BTW, we got for $13,500), we were looking
at a beautifully maintained TriPacer.  I've got to confess that the few trips around 
the patch in this plane is the limit of my TriPacer, but I've got to doubt your 
statements on the comparative performance, Kevin.   I'd say that the an 
older 172 has about the same or slightly better performance than a simular
vintage TriPacer.  Maybe we should get togather and race ;-)

I can get four normal sized people into the plane fairly confortably (although
with full fuel, luggage is limited to a picnic lunch).  

The statement about fabric planes is a perfectly correct, but I would hesitate
about owning a fabric plane that I couldn't keep in a hanger.  No, parking a
fabric plane outside in the sun won't cause it to disintegrate any more than 
any other plane.  However, repainting aluminum is probably cheaper and 
easier than recovering fabric.

> Expenses:
>...
Roughly the same.  

> Panel space is tight for lots-O-gizmo IFR but workable.

Panel space is a bit better and IFR is certainly possible, but will certainly
drive the price of the plane up.  Of course, this is true for either P brand
or C brand plane.

> These are noisy airplanes but with Peltors and a Telex intercom I have no
>complaints.

Not just Pacers.  I find that headsets and intercoms required equipement
in all the small planes I've flown.

>All of the above is based on actual experience because, you see, I already
>got one (a Pacer that is)

Ditto.  (Cessna, that is).  The real differances are probably only in the
eye of the owner.

Frank Stutzman          
SynOptics Communcations    |    Eagles soar, but weasels never
Santa Clara, Ca            |    get sucked into jet engines.
franks@synoptics.com       |              -- Elf Sternberg
Cessna N7770T @ PAO
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Handheld GPS receivers
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:44:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Nov10.164424.8752
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

From article <kezlGHm00WB=5JCVJV@andrew.cmu.edu>, by Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu>:
> In his Nov. 5 post, Bart Miller asked about a summary regarding hand
> held GPS receivers. 
> 
> Plane & Pilot, November 1992 published a good summary article on all
> lorans and GPSs, including a detailed chart of all units currently
> available with features, functions and mfgr. suggested prices.  

I think the first major surge of purchase of handheld GPS receivers will
be when they have a large graphics LCD panel on the one (entire) face of
the unit, with buttons to the side.  It should display graphics in realtime,
like the Lap-Map setup with the HP95X, and cost below $1000.  Who can
say no to that.  I bet even ATP pilots may just carry those in their
bags just in case.

If nobody is working on it, then somebody with some money might wanna... 
(I bet you will be selling them to aviators like they sell radios to
the average Joe's back in those good ol' days) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (patterson,george r)
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggest
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 21:39:41 GMT

In article <15432@auspex-gw.auspex.com> tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett) writes:

>Go get yourself a Stinson 108-3 or -2 and get the speed of a 172, with
>a big useful load and the best harmonized controls this side of
>Alexandria, Mn...

I know two Stinson owners and both claim the aircraft consumes 15 gallons
or more per hour. You also have to be careful with the purchase. Don't
touch one with a "light case" Franklin engine. They can't be rebuilt.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | The origin of the English slang term "boffin"
                    | for scientist is not known; however, it has been
George Patterson -  | pointed out that the eggs of the Puffin are perfect
                    | obloids which always return to the same position
                    | if pushed and that this is also true of the ideas
                    | expressed by boffins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rod@sadtler.com (Rod Farlee)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Marvel Mystery Oil (was: What's TCP)
Keywords: engine synthetic oil
Date: 6 Nov 92 05:36:12 GMT
Organization: Sadtler Research Laboratories

acampane@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Angelo Campanella) asks:
> Anyone know what's in "Marvel Mystery Oil"

"Marvel Mystery Oil is a light viscosity naphthenic oil (roughly
equivalent to an SAE 3W), with about 20 percent solvent (probably 
mineral spirits), dye, wintergreen for smell, and 790 ppm of 
phosphorous additive... 
MMO contains no dispersant to hold dirt in suspension... therefore 
dilutes the dispersant in the oil.  MMO dilutes the viscosity index
of a multi-viscosity oil, thereby making it less resistant to 
temperature [changes]...

"Mystery History.
"Marvel Mystery Oil was formulated shortly after World War I by
an automotive engineer named Burt Pierce, the man who invented
the Marvel carburetor, the standard automobile carburetor of its
time...  GM bought up the rights to the carb and hired Pierce as a
consultant.
"The Marvel carbs were susceptible to clogging by lead and contam-
inants, so Pierce cooked up a mixture of light oil and various
chemicals to clean out the carbs...  In 1923, Pierce went out on
his own and incorporated as Marvel Oil.  He began selling his
'mystery oil'... claimed to be a universal lubricant and cleaner,
'one for all, and all for one.'"
Joe Howard (v-p, Marvel Oil) is quoted "'The basic formula hasn't 
changed since 1917.'
"Marvel has never done any real engineering tests to document
Mystery Oil's claimed benefits...
"...the stuff is illegal in certificated production aircraft [but]
we see no evidence that it can do any harm if used as directed."

Several anecdotal "miracle-cure" endorsements follow this article.
- Dave Noland, Aviation Consumer "1989 Pilot's Buying Guide", p. 9.


"Do not use Marvel Mystery Oil or other solvents to unstick a
valve.  Solvents may un-stick the valve in time, but not 
immediately.  Eventually the valve may unstick, but not before
your camshaft lobes have been damaged.  Solvent treatments
dissolve the outer deposit layers and temporarily un-stick the
valve.  The remaining deposits push the valve over to the opposite
side of the valve guide and cause rapid, uneven wear.  The valve
stem may stick or it may cause rapid guide wear where the stem is
forced against the guide opposite of the deposit buildup."

- John Schwaner, "Sky Ranch Engineering Manual: Aircraft Piston
  Engines: Operation, Failure, Repair", 2nd edition, 1991, p. 83. 

Opinion on: 
MMO is scam, but has tradition, a pretty can and smells nice.
Microlon is simply a scam, with none of these extra benefits.
But BD-10 does have... okay, okay, opinion off!
-- 
Rod Farlee, rod@sadtler.com, (215) 382-7800
Bio-Rad, Sadtler Div., 3316 Spring Garden St., Philadelphia PA 19104
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: Lorans on leaseback
Keywords: lorans leaseback
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:19:25 GMT

When my C-172 was in leaseback an odd list of things were removed. Some of
those things were not useful anywhere else, and things that would be of use
remained in the plane. There is no way to guess what people will decide to
walk away with.

I would look for a Loran with out a removeable database card, or install
it in such a way that YOU take it home with you. A pain and a pity, but the 
reality of a plane in leaseback.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: adelman@tgv.com (Kenneth Adelman)
Subject: Lorans on leaseback
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: lorans leaseback
Organization: TGV, Incorporated (Santa Cruz, CA, USA)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 04:58:00 GMT

    Does anyone have any experience with lorans in a leaseback?  We're
planning on adding a cheap VFR loran to a leaseback Cessna 150 and the
current choice seems to Flybuddy, but we're concerned that the
database card may not stay with the plane.  Comments?  Ideas on how to
secure the card?

    Also, I remember reading raves about some avionics shop in San
Jose, CA; anyone remember the name of it?

							Ken
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggesti
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:08:59 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <10NOV199211015799@mars.lerc.nasa.gov>, fskevin@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Kevin R. Kirtley (SVER)) writes:
> 
> My hangar mate is a 172M with the same O-320 engine as my Pacer.  I outclimb
> and out cruise him by "a bit".  I'll agree that performance is very close
> but if you believe POHs then the edge goes to the TriPacer. 

You missed one important test. When that O-320 stops, the Pacer won't out
glide the 172M. 

There's a price to be paid for higher wing loading....

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

From: leed@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Lee Devlin)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:44:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Getting my feet wet (first plane suggestions).
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Wilmington, DE
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning

In rec.aviation.owning, franks@synoptics.com (Frank Stutzman) writes:

>OK, now a word from Cessna camp ;-)

Ok, well now another word from the Short Wing Piper Camp :-)

>Before we bought 70T (which, BTW, we got for $13,500), we were looking

Well, getting a decent C-172 for less than $20K these days is near
impossible.  I don't know when you got your plane, but if was more than
5 years ago, you can probably add about $7K to the figure that you paid
to buy it now.  The $14K Tri-Pacer figure Kevin was quoting was for an
excellent specimen with plenty of time left until TBO and recent
covering, etc.

>However, repainting aluminum is probably cheaper and 
>easier than recovering fabric.

Yes perhaps, but stripping, a very necessary step in refinishing, will
be *much* more labor intensive with an aluminum plane.  Damage or
corrosion is also a whole lot cheaper and easier to fix on a tube and
fabric plane than with aluminum monocoque construction.  Another advantage
is that a rag-wing worth $14K will likely have spent most of its life in
a hangar so you're getting a much nicer plane than you would with a
weather-ravaged bargain spam can.

I also like the idea of a tube and fabric plane's independence from
manufacturer's parts price extorsion and parts shortages.  The fabric
and tubing are available from many sources and are relatively
inexpensive.  These planes are eminently rebuildable.  They are the
last true bargains in aviation.

Lee Devlin             |    HP Little Falls Site  | phone: (302) 663-8697 
Piper Colt N4986Z      |    2850 Centerville Rd.  | email:
Spirit of rec.aviation |    Wilmington, DE 19808  | devlin@lf.hp.com

p.s.  How's that Kevin?  Enough evangelical fervor? :-) :-)
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 1992 20:46:59 -0500 
From: Jeffrey Dunkle <jd5f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Handheld GPS receivers

In his Nov. 5 post, Bart Miller asked about a summary regarding hand
held GPS receivers. 

Plane & Pilot, November 1992 published a good summary article on all
lorans and GPSs, including a detailed chart of all units currently
available with features, functions and mfgr. suggested prices.  

Jeff Dunkle
From: lee@deneb.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Overhauling an O-470R
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:35:05 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: deneb.sw.stratus.com

A while back I announced that Skylane "Wiley" was down for the big one, and
asked about information about overhaul shops.  My engine is now down at Penn
Yan receiving inspiration.  Since this happens rather rarely, I thought folks
might like the data point.

The O-470 is a normally aspirated 6-cylinder 230-hp Continental engine.

I'm having my local mechanic do the installation and minor parts.  He also
negotiated the price with various shops.  He has done a lot of business with
Penn Yan, and got a 10% discount over list (perhaps all A&P's do).

	Overhaul of my engine at Penn Yan (less 10%)		$9,877
	Surcharge for cermichrome lining of cylinders		   300
	Engine mounts, hoses, oil, miscellaneous parts		   475
	Labor by local mechanic (incl first oil change)		   900
	Shipping						   300
			Total				       $11,850

I actually have brand new mags and harnesses, so Penn Yan will not supply
those and will knock $500 off the price above; this wouldn't apply to most
people.
-- 
Lee W. Cooprider				PP-ASEL/IA
Lee_Cooprider@vos.stratus.com			Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
From: marquis@ll.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Seeking Aircraft: Arrow or TArrow
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:13:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: LL.9211101813.AA28525
X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA27449; Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:16:30 -0800
X-Received: by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com; id AA10930; Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:16:27 -0800
X-Received: by ll.mit.edu (4.1/LL-1.3) id AA28057; Tue, 10 Nov 92 18:13:22 EST
X-To: rec.aviation.owning.usenet

I am part of a group seeking an aircraft.  My charge is the investigate
Piper Arrow.

We'd want an IFR aircraft in the $50,000 range.  We'd also consider Turbo
Arrows.

If you know of anyone selling such an aircraft (USA only), please call Doug
Marquis @ (508) 820-1192 (EST 7:00 am - 10:00 pm), or email.  Thanks.
                                    -*- Doug -*-
                                    marquis@ll.mit.edu