From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 03 Jan 93 08:59 PST
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Nf-ID: #R:1hs8brEINNfle@uni-erlangen.de:-1634168734:cdp:1678600014:000:3605
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  3 08:59:00 1993


Hi Chris!
 
ME:  In this world where the vast majority of people live in abject
     poverty, wealth beyond what one needs to take care of one's self
     and family is immoral.
 
YOU: FALSE! I could give away everything I own (which is considerably
     more than what i _need_ to take care of my self and it would not
     help the Somalis one bit (nor the homeless in NYC for that matter). 
 
For me, this is a statement of faith.  Also, I am not asking you to
"give away everything you own", but to keep what you need to take of
yourself and family and community.  My point is that there some are with
massive amounts of wealth (well beyond their needs) who maintain their
position by impoverishing others.
 
YOU: There is inequity in the world. The way to solve it is to help those
     in need, not punish those who succeed.
 
I am not suggesting punishment.  But I wonder what you mean by succeed.
Do you think that by hard honest work you will be able amass the wealth
of a Rockefeller or a Getty?  Or an Ivan Boesky, Charles Keating, or
Donald Trump?  Or an Exxon, General Electric, or Maxxim corporations?
 
YOU: The way to help those in abject poverty is to establish democratic
     capitalism and western values. 
 
What do you mean by democratic capitalism?  Surely it's not the ability
of corporations to dump toxics in minority neighborhoods, lay-off U.S.
workers and exploit third world workers, all for the benefit of the
few!
 
Don't you think establishing "western values" in nations with rich
cultural and social heritages is a little presumptious?  It seems
to me that the introduction of "western values" (or at least our
propensity to prop up petty dictators in banana republics) has been
the cause of much of the world's poverty.  By the way, what are
"western values" anyway? 
 
ME:  People find spiritual inspiration by being grounded in their
     communities, their soil, and their natural surroundings.
 
YOU: What does this mean? Grounded in their soil? Earth is electrical ground
     but I doubt that is what you mean :-).
 
Thanks for the humor!  I meant spiritually grounded.
 
YOU: [6-10 deleted] These are all nice thoughts, but are you really
     serious?
 
Yes.  Let me quote a bit from Rudolf Bahro's article on Communes
found in The Green Reader, Mercury House, 1991 (Contact the Green
Clearinghouse at 1-800-257-7336 for a copy. Price $12.00)
 
"Almost one and a half thousand years ago the Benedictines gave the
western culture emerging from the collapse of Antiquity not only a
very significant economic impulse, which at its peak involved up to
*30 percent* of the population.  Above all, they guaranteed the
cultural synthesis of the new order which was current at the time,
on a meditative basis - hence 'pray (first) and work' - upon which
the whole social tradition of their practice was dependent.
... they found their own true selves beneath the rubble and
character amour of their socialization -- the energy source of
their charismatic effort.
  We need a new Benedictine order.  It can only flourish in a
socially effective way within a commune type framework....
  The new Benedictine movement will be different from the old
in at least the following two aspects.  .... It will not be
linked to a repressive monotheistic idea of God .... and it
will not be linked to the separation of the sexes and sexual
oppression."
 
There's lots of stuff in Bahro's article, but the point I tried
to bring out is that there are options to our insane addiction
to consumption, materialism and "progress".  It has happened
before, and it can happen again.
 
Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens