From: davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: "Like Tom Chambers" (WAS: Re: Laettner selfish?)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 17:55:46 -0800
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu

In article <1993Jan27.141131.13938@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>In article <1k4vhdINNadf@sumax.seattleu.edu> davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat) writes:
>>
>>	I often see the comment " like Tom Chambers" made a lot (not just this
>>post, but in other posts and in the media as well.) It is often used to
>>describe tall (6'10"+) players of a certain skin tone who can score points.
>>Well, I suppose this is true to a point, but no more so that calling, say,
>>Dale Ellis a "Michael Jordan type" (both are about the same size, play guard,
>>and can score points.) 
>
>Well, instead of trying to make this a racial thing, let's look at the 
>similarities between the two players...

	That wasn't directed at you, but rather to the other people who
call every 6'10" BWG who can score a "Chambers." That's why I changed the
aubject header.


>>
>>
>>	I have heard guys like Michael Smith, Alec Kessler, etc. called
>>Tom Chambers types for this reason. But I say they are not, nor is Christian
>>Laettner,nor is Tom Gugliotta. Why? Well, the main reason is athleticism.

	I have heard every one of these guys called a "Chambers-type."
Smith and Kessler in draft previews, Gugliotta after his excellent rookie
start. That prompted my post, becase (as you well know) I don't think any
of these people are Chambersesque players.

********************* My Chambers stuff deleted *******************

>Chambers is, as you said, about 6'10 or so.  He is very athletic, can run
>the floor very well, and could handle the ball very well.  Likewise, Christian
>Laettner is about 6'10 or so, very athletic, runs the floor very well, and
>handles the ball extremely well.  For all Tom's athleticism, he was only an
>average rebounder and shot blocker, and Christian is a little better at this
>skills.  Both are pretty good passers, pretty average defenders, and are
>excellent outside shooters for big men.  Chambers is a career 30% 3pt shooter,
>and has taken over 600 of them.  I see the same skills in Laettner.  Both

	See, my previous post stresses that while Chambers is pretty good
shooting *now*, for the first five or six years of his career, he was rather
poor from outside. That was one of the things that galled the Sonic staffs
in those years- his terrible shot selection, since he was taking lots of
outside shots he wasn't able to make. You will find that Chambers' three-point
range emerged in the 86-87 season for the first time.  I don't have the
statstics with me, but I'd wager most of those 600 three pointers were shot
in the last five seasons. The whole point of this is that Chambers style and
nature of play were formed around the drive, not the jumper. He was a driver,
almost exclusively, for the first half of his career, when he developed his
style. Laettner has a jump shot *now*, as a rookie, and his style reflects
that. I daresay if Laettner could not do the things Chamber did in Chamber's
early career, if Laettners' jump shot were taken away from him. Laettner
is hitting for 48% now, I see, while he was at 50% for much of the season
to date, whereas 48% was a excellent shooting season for Chambers (realized
mainly with the Suns, with their fast breaks and KJ's passing. 

>players preferred to run and the open court, and in the half-court game,
>both preferred the wings.  I think Laettner is a little better inside than
>Chambers.  Fancy dunks do not a player make!!!   If he truly dunked 
	    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	I agree COMPLETELY. If you are saying Laettner is as good as 
Chambers, you'll have no complaint from me. I am saying stylistically
Chambers is a much different player that Laettner. I feel, though Laettner
is a fine athlete, that Chambers is simply one of the finest ever at his
size. He's in a rare class. Five years ago, when people did comparisions,
only James Worthy was considered in Chambers' class in athletic ability (for
big forwards.) At that time Karl Malone wasn't getting as much notoriety as
he does now. But even then, the only big forwards who could outrun Chambers
down the court were Worthy and Malone, and even so Worthy wasn't considered
a power forward (he was 6'9", though, so he was in Chambers' size class. And
Chambers could outleap Malone, and was stronger than Worthy.


>everything in site, his FG% would have been higher, but Chambers was more of
>a perimeter player that was forced inside, much like Laettner.  Chambers has
>only had 2 seasons were he shot over 50%, which for his position isn't so 
>great.  But, this is because of where he played.  Yes, he dunked a lot of 
>balls, but that was because he was a talented player.  Laettner isn't as
>creative a dunker as Tom, but still dunks the ball a lot.

	True. But as I said, Chambers had the habit of shooting from outside
a lot in his early career, even though he couldn't hit them, That's why his
FG% was so bad. Again, look up any Sonics team analysis from those years and
you'll see what I mean. Laettner may dunk a lot, but Chambers DUNKED. Don't
misinterpret my emphasis on dunking- I'm not saying Chambers was better because
he was an awesome dunker. I'm saying he was demonstrating a level of 
athleticism that Laettner does not have with those dunks. It's like comparing
Rolando Blackmon and Michael Jordan, or say Ron Harper. They are all good,
but you must agree that stylistically, Blackmon is much different from Jordan,
wheras Harper is much like Jordan, and the differences are meaningful. A person
might want a Blackmon-type opposed to a Harper-type (and Jordan is so awesome
they'd take him no matter what the type), but if you're not quite as great
as Jordan then your style of play does make a difference.


>>
>>	Also where it falls short- Tom Chambers, for most of his career,
>>was a lousy outside shooter. Not until his last couple of seasons with
>>Seattle, and then with the Suns, did his outside shot come around. Even now,
>>I wouldn't say Chambers is a great outside shooter, solid, but not great.
>>Chambers' offensive game is built around the drive, not the jump shot. Chambers
>>was (is?) great at driving to the hoop. He scored tons of points, indeed
>>most of his buckets in his early career, on drives to the hole. Most of those
>>above people used their jump shots to score big.
>
>Funny, I always thought he was a good outside shooter, especially in the
>latter part of his career.  He did drive a lot, because of his ball-handling
>and speed, but Laettner does a lot of the same.  

	I'll have to watch Laettner more extensively, as T-Wolves games are a
bit rare here. What I have seen is that Laettner can drive, but that's not his
strength. I'll discount the college stuff, since as Duke's big man he might
not have been allowed to display all of his ballhandling skills. It's hard to
imagine, though, that Laettner can consistently take his man 18 feet from the
hoop and drive at will on him, like Chambers could. Though I haven't watched
him that much I do read all I can on the rookies, and it seems reasonable to
me to think that such great driving ability would be mentioned by someone
in the press. It may be that people don't remember how great Chambers was at
driving to the hoop - he had one of the quickest first steps any forward as
ever had, maybe the quickest first step any 6'10-6'11" player has ever had, and
I don't hear anyone saying Laettner has that kind of skill.

	If I may say this, Jack Sikma was an outstanding outside shooter, 
was good at driving to the hoop (yes he was- ask any long-time Sonic fan,
don't go by his play in his twilight in Milwaukee) and could dunk the ball,
but by no means was he a Chambers-type.

******************** Chambers weak rebound stuff deleted ********************

>
>Part of this is because of the type of game Chambers played.  He liked the 
>wing and did drive, but didn't play a lot inside.  When you don't play inside,
>it is tough to get the rebounds.  Over his career, he has averaged about 7
>rebounds a game, which isn't terrible, considering where he played, but not
>great.  


	He didn't play a lot inside because he didn't LIKE playing inside.
It certainly wasn't because Seattle's coaches (and I daresay Cotton Fitzsimmons
too) didn't want him to. Lenny Wilkens and Bernie Bickerstaff were dying
to get some rebounds out of him, but Chambers had no interest in doing so.
They certainly didn't design a gameplan to keep Chambers outside, not until
it became apparent they had no choice. It may be forgotten now that Chambers
is on a superior team (the Suns) but for the first 7 years Chambers was
berated and criticized by Seattle fans for his lack of production on the
boards. 7 rebounds for a 6'11" guy who got big minutes is very weak, even
if he prefers the outside shot. For remember, even if he played outside a lot,
that only takes away the offensive rebounding. You can still rebound 
defensively no matter what your offensive preference (unless you are always
breaking.) Jack Sikma, who always played outside as a center, was
perenially among the leadgue leaders in rebounding, thatnks to his defensive
boardwork. 

	The impression I got on Laettner was that he is a tough guy inside-
maybe he's tailed off lately. He was averaging around 10 boards a game- I see
he's slipped to around 8 a game. But I believe Chamber's best season *ever*
rebounding was about 8.3 a game, so as a rookie Laettner is on par with
the best season Chambers ever had. Anyway, if I'm wrong about this, and 
Laettner is really an outside guy who doesn't like to go inside and wrestle
with the big guys, then I withdraw this one. But I had felt Laettner was a
so called "tough guy," whereas Chambers was always considered a softie (in
Seattle.) When Chambers moved to Phoenix, he wasn't Mr. Mean, but offered
more leadership.
	

>>
>>	My litmus test for a Tom-Chambers type is this: Can he play small
>>forward? If he can play small forward *consistently* (i.e. start for a quality
>>team at small forward) the guy might be a Chambers type. Chambers did this for
>>Phoenix, but never could at Seattle because X-Man was the small forward (a
>>strange combination- a "small" power forward in X-Man (he was a tough guy and
>>the main rebounder for Seattle) and a "big" small forward (in Chambers, who
>>would rather get out on the break and score points.) A mistake Phoenix repeated
>>in trading for X-Man. To be honest, I don't see many Tom Chambers types out
>>there at all. Maybe you call some of them *old* Tom Chambers types.....
>>
>
>No, Christian Laettner can play small forward, for the right teams.  His 
>defense is pretty bad though, so it would be harder for him.  You talk about
>your litmus test being playing small forward, yet CHambers really didn't do
>this until Phoenix, which was the last 4 years or so.  This year, he sees more
>time at Center, due to the lack of size in the Suns.  
>
>I see more of a litmus test in HOW they play the game, and what skills they 
>bring...


	I agree again. I don't think Laettner plays much like Chambers 
in his prime. I'll admit Laetter probably plays like Chambers does now
stylistically, because Chambers athletic skills have eroded with age and
injury so they are no better than Laettner's. And Laettner is pretty solid.
But if you got a 24 year old Chambers out there, no comparision. And, I think
Chambers could play small forward for virtually any team, in his prime,
unless they already had a great small forward. That might have been the
biggest tragedy in the '85 draft for Seattle- if Seattle had drafted
Karl Malone instead of X-Man, they could have paired Malone and Chambers on
the front line. Wouldn't that throw the fear of God into a rival coach.
Seattle was always hampered in that they never defined Chambers, and finally
just said, "Well, he's 6'10", so he's a power forward."

>
>Tom Chambers brought a big guy who wasn't a great rebounder or shot blocker, 
>not a real good defender, but a very good scorer.  He was best on the wings,
>either shooting from outside or driving and loved the open floor.  He was 
>a man without a position in that he was too big and slow to be an effective
>small forward (as far as defending went), and didn't like to play inside
>as a power forward.  He was athletic and fast, but didn't really have the
>quickest feet in the world.  He was a border line AllStar level player during
>his career, with a few outstanding years.  He also has shown an ability to 
>shoot the 3 pointer as well.
>
>Substitue Tom Chambers name with Christian Laettner, and it says the same 
>thing about him.

	Perhaps, if Laettner's boards slip a lot more, and his driving
ability goes up. To be honest, my impressions of Laettner were formed in
Nov-Dec, not the last 2-3 weeks. At that time, he looked to be a fine power 
forward type. 10 rebounds, played tough inside, shot jump shots. Chambers
(again) was absolutely NOT tough inside, never came close to 10 boards,
drove a lot. Substituting the name, perhaps they seem the same. But even if
you are correct in all you say, if you put helmets on the guys and put 
them in the same jersey, the difference in their on-court style would be
so great you could never mistake them, or even think they were really of
the same mold.

>-- 
>David T. Meeks            || "New shadows tugging at the corner of his eye
>VMark Software, Inc.      ||  Jostling for attention as the sunlight flares
>uvmark!davem@merk.com     ||  Through a curtains tear, shuffling its beams
>davem%uvmark@merk.com     ||  As if in nervous anticipation of another day"


				

					David L. Yee
				email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro