From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: Just how much smarter are atheists?
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:30:49 GMT

You have some good points, but you fall short on some others...

910773f@ace.acadiau.ca (HEATHER LEE FYFFE) writes:
>
>Religion is not just a way of dealing with life.  Sure, that does come into 
>play.  But it is also a belief in a certain truth, and if you believe in 
>that truth, then what others believe to be true must be wrong, because there 
>can only be one Truth.  So EVERYBODY goes through life trying to convince 
>everybody else that they're wrong.  Christians by evangelizing, atheists by 
>arguing with Christians, even apathetics who say `whatever works'.  Some try 
>more forcibly, some don't really _try_, but just stating your own opinion 
>forces others to consider it.  But if you don't believe in your truth 
>strongly enough to consider it the big-T Truth, then why do you believe in 
>it at all?  

The world isn't black-and-white.  I believe that my truth is the
correct one, of course -- but I'm not above admitting that I may very
well have perceived "absolute truth" incorrectly, so I'm not against
admitting that Christians might be right.  If a Christian comes to me
and tries to defend his religion by harping on fantastic leaps of
faith that fly in the face of what we already empirically know to be
true about the universe, then I'll explain to him why I think he's
spouting hogwash; if he resolves his beliefs so that he can also
suitably deal with my arguments, then good for him, I won't bother him
any more.  If a Christian is quite happy being Christian and does not
actively offend anyone by being one, then I have no business trying to
"convert" that person.  And there are some people in the world who
honestly don't care _what_ anybody else thinks.

>And yes, there are many Christians who believe because they were told to and 
>didn't bother to think about it.  But there are people like that in any 
>religion (or non-religion).  I myself grew up being told that Christianity 
>was wrong, and so I believed it, until I started to learn about it.  Then I 
>clued in.

WHat did you learn about it that "clued you in"?  What empirical
observations did you make that specifically support the Christian
notion of a god, and not just the idea of a non-sentient "prime mover"?

>Everyone, whether they will admit it or not, knows that they have 
>a soul.  Noone can possibly believe that `I', what makes me `me', my 
>thoughts, my feelings, my personality, is merely a product of atoms jumping 
>around in the brain.  You all know that there is something intangible that 
>is `you'.

I cannot possibly believe that "I" am some sort of magical spiritual
entity; there is no reason for me to believe that I am anything other
than a sophisticated analog state machine.  I am merely a product of
atoms interacting in incomprehensibly intricate patterns.

Besides, even if you believe in a "soul", why do you have to believe
in the Christian god?  It's possible to come up with a much more
general notion of 'god' that would still make "souls" possible.

>This is spirituality - not believing in ghosts, but believing in 
>people.  All people also wonder, at least a little bit, `why'.  This is the 
>God-shaped hole.  The longing for a purpose, the human condition.

I have a purpose: myself.  I exist to live, and I do what I enjoy
doing, taking into consideration the benefits and consequences of my
actions.  If you believe some higher authority gives us "purpose" in
life, then why do you think it's the Christian god and not some other?

>How else can you explain the intense happiness and joy that new Christians 
>experience?  We finally feel fulfilled, yes, this is what I've been waiting 
>for.

... similar to what a child feels when you tuck him in at night and
give him his teddy bear: Now I am safe, now this thing that I have
will protect me from anything that wants to hurt me.

>Now I have something to strive for.

And I, an atheist, don't?

>How many ex-Christians can say they felt that when they left the faith?

I can!  I felt a tremendous rush of sheer bliss -- almost religious,
in a way -- when I finally gathered the courage to renounce my faith.

>Most often they left because of 
>disillusionment, disappointment, and disgust with the Church and its 
>operations.  And I must say, in most cases I can't blame them.  The Church 
>as an organization is materialistic, egotistical, and uncaring about its 
>members.

I agree.  But what is Christianity without Christians?  How can you
say that the Christian Church is materialistic, egotistical, and
uncaring, but that Christians aren't?  After you deal with enough
close-minded people from that faith, you begin to really wonder about
it...

>But can those who left truly say that they have found happiness 
>since?  Sure, you may say it easily, and you probably will.  But I challenge 
>you to question whether you really, truly mean it, or is it just another 
>mask?

I really, truly mean it.  I am FREE!  If I want to buy myself a CD, I
can do it without feeling the least bit guilty that I'm not putting
that money into some collection plate!  And if I actually do want to
donate my money instead to a good cause, then I can take pride in what
I am doing.  No longer will I give some unseen ghost praise for all
the good things I do, while I take all the blame -- now I will reap my
own rewards as _well_ as my own punishments!

>I have to wonder about those who can do nothing but flame, flame, flame we 
>Christians.  Any attempt at serious discussion is countered with sarcasm and 
>vicious attacks.

Try reading talk.abortion sometime.  There are Christians there who
haughtily assume some kind of morally superior ground, and counter all
my arguments with "but you're wrong."  Those are the Christians I
despise; I rather enjoy people who open up and try to understand my
viewpoints, but these are few and far between.

I have one last question for you: Why do you believe in the Christian
god?  How do you know that some deity didn't create the universe some
millions of years ago, and then die?

-- 
_/_/_/  Brian Kendig                             Je ne suis fait comme aucun
/_/_/  bskendig@netcom.com                de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire
_/_/                            n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent.
  /  Nolite te bastardes     Si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre.
 /  carborundorum.                                               -- Rousseau
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