From: hasnie@ed.ecn.purdue.edu (Rizwan Hasnie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Please reply Mr Nasir Ahmed Noor
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:41:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: noose.1992Apr8.184150.7884
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

Mr Noor the problem with you is that you accuse other persons of the
foul play but you yourself commit the same. 

In your article you write.

> Except one, no part of your letter is worth replying to. I will reply to that.

 Please Explain.
 I know why the rest of my letter is not worth replying to. It is because
 you are obviously stumped by some of the points that I raised. Why didn't 
 you acknowledge that you were lying when you accused the Islamic clergy of
 avoiding any Mubahila & plans for violence in & after Mubahila.

 Ask  any unbiased reader of SCP. You evade questions and then you accuse
 others of doing the same. 
        "Apni aankh kay shehteer par nazar rakhay,
            mayri aankh say tinka nikalnay walay."

> You have pointed out a Mubahila from the times of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed
> Qadiani and claim that Hazrat Ahmed lost that ``battle of prayers''. Well
> Sir, before I reply to that, I would like to point out that every day on
> the net, someone posts an article/allegation highly reflective of their
> ignorance of facts and history and beliefs of Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam.
> If only you had tried to find out facts from some reliable sources (not
> necessarily Ahmadi sources), this post wouldn't have resulted. Very recent
> examples would include very ridiculous posts by Mr. Jafry and some allegations
> by Mr. Marwan and other people.
> 
> Are you aware that When Ahmadis were decalred Non-Muslims by Bhutto, our
> Khalifa (Hazrat Mirza Nasir Ahmed) at that time (3rd Khalifa of Hazrat Ahmad)
> appeared in National Assembly (or was it Senate) and faced all allegations
> and arguments against Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam. No part of those sessions
> was ever released to the public. And when we were declared Non-Muslims, we
> made repeated requests to the Government that it should release the
> recording of those sessions to the public or atleast let the Ahmadis explain
> their point of view. Could you answer me, Sir, Why all these requests were
> turned down? Why justice was not done? Why it was a ``one sided'' decission
> and accused were not let to defend themselves? I know that truth is always
> bitter to swallow but the truth is when ever any of your schoars/maulvis
> has ever faced Ahmadis, they take an unforgettable beat in debates/discussions
> and always end up descending to levels of dirty tricks!!! Why, if Ahmadis
> have so unacceptable beliefs, would they not let the public hear what we
> had to say that why we believe in our beleifs????
> 
  I really didn't know this. I think the details of the discussions must be
  released. No doubt it is a political issue but the NA proceedings can be
  declared public for Ahmedi issue does not jeopardize the state security.
 
  Your questions thus must be raised by your member in NA and in the press
  of Pakistan. Moreover, if you think injustice was done, go to judicial courts
  in Pakistan seek the help of ombudsmen. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU DIVERTING THESE
  QUESTIONS TO THE READERS OF SCP?

  Yes the truth is bitter to swallow!! The public in Pakistan desperately
  want to hear your beleifs. They thought that the Minar-e-Pakistan offer 
  would be an ideal oppertunity to seek the truth. But it were *your*
  priests who declined to reveal their beleifs. Don't you think your priests
  cherish their lives more than the *truth*?
  
  How could you call yourself Muslims if you are not willing to follow
  Muhammad(PBUH) who advocated the truth despite all resistances including
  threats to his life and lives of his friends & kin? Jesus was the profit
  of peace & courage. The followers of Ghulam Ahmed show no sign of courage 
  when it comes to their lives. Do they?

  I again put the question. Why did your leaders escaped from their Holy
  Land of Punjab to England, land of Richards who was a bitter enemy of Islam?
  It cannot be Hijrat, for your leaders do not and cannot establish an Ahmedi
  regime in England. I think your leaders  are wimps. Since they had no courage
  of either Muhammad or Jesus, they escaped to land of people who were the 
  mastermind behind the Ahmedi movement.     

> Now back to your point of Hazrat Ahmad's Mubahila.
> This question was put up by someone last year too and I simply copy the
> response I gave that gentleman: (follows...)
> 
> It is claimed that Ahmad made a prophecy that Sanaullah will die in his 
> lifetime. But Sanuaullah outlived Ahmad, hence Ahmad proved wrong.
> Here is the background which the books you refer to always omit.
> Sanaullah challenged the Promised Messiah, Hazrat Ahmad to a prayer duel 
> (Mobahilah) published in Ahle Hadees March 29, 1907.  In response, Ahmad
> accepted. He stated:  "If he is sincere in his challenge that the untruthful 
> one should die before the truthful one then surely he will be the first to 
> die (Ijaz Ahmadi, p 36)."  When Sanaullah realized that Ahmad accepted the
> challenge, he made excuses.  He wrote in his book "Ilhamat Mirza" page116:
> "I regret, however, that I dare not enter into such controversy and this lack
> of courage is a source of honour for me and is not a source of humiliation."
> He went on to say in the magazine Ahle Hadees, April 19,1907:
> "The Quran says that evil doers are granted respite by God...God grants
> respite and bestows long life on liars, deceivers, disturbers of peace and
> the disobedient."
> He not only rejected the challenge of Ahmad (which was the necessary condition
> for fulfilment of the prophecy re death within a year), but put forward the 
> principle that liars and decievers are granted long lives. Thereupon, Allah
> granted him long life and he outlived Hazrat Ahmad.
> 

  There is a difference between an opinion and dua. What Maulana sahib did
  in his dua is well known to be accepted. And Allah showed it so.

  As regards his opinion, Maulana sahib never made it as a dua. The pricinple
  that you mention in your quotes refer to respite only. The long life to
  disobedients is granted by Allah only if it is not interrupted by any DUA.
  I hope you understand the significance of dua in changing the fate.

  Moreover, if you beleive that Maulana Sahib's principle was correct in
  general (that is he mentions that a disobedient person has long life but
  you have changed the direction of implication that is any person having
  a long life is a disobedient one) then what about Jesus? He has(or had  
  for you) a long life. What about Noah? Adam? We all know they all had
  long lives but  that does not question their obedience.

  Mr Noor. You keep failing to understand the significance of the prayer of
  Mubahila, WHICH IS ALWAYS ACCEPTED. 

  So here you have two choices. Either decline the prophethood of Adam, Noah,
  & Jesus (Peace be upon them) by contorting the opinion of Maulana Sahib or
  accept that Mr Ghulam Ahmed was a sham who met his fate.  

> 
> Regards
> Nasir Ahmed Noor
> umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca
> 
> Sir, I put forward a question to you. Could you tell me that why so many
> lies are written by your ``so respected'' and ``trusted'' scholars about
> Ahmadiyyat?? I can give you hundereds and hundereds of examples but why

  There could be some exaggeration by some of our scholars about Ahmadiyyat.
  But the general arguments are well authenticated and cannot be termed lies.

> go any where else, I sure you remember reading some pathetically ridiculous
> posts by Mr. Jafry and allegations made by Mr. Marwan. Also, why anti 
> Ahmadiyya writers love to pick sentces/words out of context from books and
> sayings of Hazrat Ahmed, and present them to give entirely different meanings?
  
  You commit the same SIN. Don't you? You also keep twisting the Hadiths and
  Quranic verses to prove your point. That's incorrect you know. Better
  correct your ways before you accuse others.

> Also why Ahmadis are denied the right to publicly defend themselves??
> Got any answers?

  Aren't you freely defending right now? You have been given offers to prove
  your points but be it Salhuddin case or Qadri's challenge your leaders
  makes one excuse or the other to avoid any meeting. Now you tell me given
  every oppertunity Why don't you speak publicly?
 

                          Rizwan Hasnie.