From: ajs9462@zeus.tamu.edu (SIMON, ANTHONY JOE)
Subject: Re: Oswald's motions in the TSBD after the assassination.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:02:00 GMT

In article <schuck.713676646@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
Tony Simon >>
Bruce Schuck > & >>>

>>>What? If he heard Baker and Truly while on the stairs, then they would
>>>have heard him.
>
>>No.Oswald didn't want to be caught. This provided him with a reason for trying
>>to be quiet on the stairs.
>
>Do you realize how silly that sounds. Try and run down 4 flights of
>stairs 'quietly'. You either run and make noise or you walk quietly.
>Quietly is slow, real slow.
>

You assume that one has to run down the stairs to get down in a reasonable
amount of time. The Warren Commission showed that it could be done at a fast
walk. Also, quietly does not have to be "slow, real slow." I can go quickly
down several flights of stairs and hardly make a sound while I hear others who
make alot of noise. I have done it. Alot depends on whether you want to be
quiet or not and whether the people coming up the stairs want to hear something
or are more interested in going up quickly.

>>>If he didn't hear them until in the vestibule, then he was alreay home free.
>>>Walking down a corridor is not going to make much noise if any.
>>>
>
>>But Oswald might not have been sure that they didn't hear him come down the
>>stairs, therefore, he may have decided to act calm, like nothing happened.
>
>In the vestibule, waiting to be seen?

I guess you don't fully read my messages, do you? Oswald would not have waited
to be seen. He would have paused to consider what he should do next. People do
that, you know. When a person considers which direction he/she wants to take,
he/she doesn't move in one direction until they've decided. It's known as
hesitation.

>If Roffman is quoting the FBI report, then he was misinformed.
>I couldn't find her testimony in vol 6 of the Hearings, which seems to
>have all the TSBD employees in it. She was probably never interviewed
>by the WC because of what she told the FBI.
>

However, the 12:25 time that Roffman uses is from Mrs. Arnold's statement. Go
read Roffman again, will you? He even states that the statement is in her own
words. Is he lying or did he not follow up on that statement? It's not a typo
because he uses that time twice.

>Here's what she told Summers.
>
>"About a quarter of an hour before the assassination, I went into the
>lunchroom...Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right
>hand side as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be
>having lunch. I did not speak to him, but recognized him clearly. It
>was about 12:15. It may have been slightly later."
>
>Sounds pretty clear to me.

"It was about" and "it may have been later" aren't very precise statements.
How was she so sure that it was 12:15? Did she look at the clock before going
downstairs to the lunchroom? Did she look at a clock in the lunchroom and
think to herself, "it's 12:15"? I do not have access to Summer's book, so I
can't check her full story out.

>>>Jarman and Norman strolled through the lunchroom between 12:20 and
>>>12:25 on the way upstairs to watch the motorcade. Thats when Oswald
>>>saw them. He would have had to have ESP to know they did that if he
>>>really wasn't in the lunchroom as late as 12:20/12:25.
>>>
>
>>Where do you get Oswald's statement that he saw them as they were strolling
>>upstairs? Why couldn't it have been when they were walking out to the sidewalk,
>>which means that the time is earlier than 12:20/12:25? Did Jarman and Norman
>>say that they saw Oswald while on their way up to the 5th floor?
>
>The only time they strolled through the room 'together' was while
>walking upstairs. Before that, Norman had been eating lunch alone
>and Jarman had come to meet him. They went outside together, but they
>only walked through the room 'together' between 12:20/12:25.

You still didn't indicate where you get Oswald's statement. According to three
of the people who interviewed Oswald, there are varying stories as to where he
said he was. On 11/23/63, Hosty and Bookhout claimed that Oswald said he ate
lunch on the first floor lunchroom. On 11/25/63, Bookhout claimed that Oswald
had said that he had eaten lunch alone and that he saw Junior and the short
individual walking through the room (no indication of what floor or time).
Thomas Kelley said that Oswald said that he had eaten lunch with Junior and a
little short negro boy (no indication of which floor or when). H. D. Holmes (on
Dec. 17, 1963) claimed that Oswald was supposed to meet one of the Negro
employees for lunch. Before Oswald could finish what he was doing, there was a
commotion surrounding the assassination. So, we have no exact statement as to
where, when, and what was going on with Oswald.

In any case, Oswald could not have seen Norman and Jarman pass through the
lunchroom either on the second floor or first floor as neither of them passed
through the lunchroom on their way to the fifth floor (see Roffman who cites
Volume 3 page 202 of the WC Report). Roffman claims that they "got together"
near the south side of the building, so Oswald couldn't have seen them in the
luchroom before they left the building. Either Oswald was lying about seeing
them pass through the room, or he saw them at some other place. This means that
they could have been exiting the building when he saw them or see them
returning, if he indeed saw them. It does not mean that he definitely saw them
when they returned to go up to the 5th floor.

Jarman ate his lunch on the first floor alone and said that he didn't see
Oswald. Jarman went outside the building with Norman between 12:00 and 12:10.
They came back in around 12:20 and 12:25 to go to the 5th floor. According to
Roffman (who cites their testimonies), they went up by way of the west freight
elevator. In order to do this, they walked around to the back of the building
and entered on the first floor through the rear door and took the elevator up.

Now you claim that Oswald was seen by Mrs. Arnold on the first floor lunchroom.
Is this the Domino Room? If not, what room was it?

>Carolyn Arnold is the *only* person who saw Oswald *anywhere* at
>12:15. I at least have *one* witness, plus Oswalds testimony of what
>went on in the lunchroom between 12:20/12:25. You have nothing!

Carolyn Arnold is not exactly sure of the time. You haven't convinced me that
Oswald saw Jarman and Norman at 12:20 to 12:25. Produce Oswald's statement
about where he saw them strolling.

>>Maybe Brennan did see him. He saw somebody who looked like Oswald. Again, he
>>couldn't be 100% certain.
>
>His testimony is worthless and has been torn to shreds by many people.

By whom and why is it worthless (please supply any contradictory evidence)?

>> Is Carolyn Arnold 100% sure that she saw him later
>>than 12:15 pm? Especially when she said that she went downstairs at 12:25 and
>>others said it was 12:15?
>
>She said 12:15 to Summers.

How many years had passed after she made that statement? How sure was she?
What do "about 12:15" and "It may have been slightly later." mean? Is that
12:15 +/- 5 minutes? +/- 3 minutes? +/- 1/2 minute? What?

>>Do you have any witnesses that put Oswald anywhere else in the building from
>>12:15 to 12:30. Sure you've got Carolyn Arnold, but it appears to me that
>>she didn't really know what time it was if/when she saw him.
>
>She knows *exactly* when she saw him. 12:15.

Not by what you quoted above, she doesn't. Again, terms like "about 12:15"
and "may have been slightly later" do NOT mean exactly.

>>The way I see it. . . Oswald came downstairs around noon. A man named Piper said
>>he saw and talked to Oswald at that time. Oswald ate lunch quickly and saw
>>Jarman and Norman head out of the building between 12:00 and 12:10 (Norman's
>>statement). Oswald then went upstairs and was possibly seen by Carolyn Arnold
>>(I say possibly, because I am not convinced that she did see him). He reached
>>the 6th floor and made his way to the sniper's nest making careful to not be
>>seen by Williams.
>
>Ahhhhh. The old 'running quietly' trick. Williams would have had to be
>deaf not to have heard someone walking around.

Since when do assassins try to call attention to themselves. Do you think
Oswald would have been walking around singing "Hey, I'm up here" so that
anybody around would know he was there?

>>Possibly he made his way along the North and East walls.
>>According to Williams, he could only see to the west and to the back (north)
>>from where he sat. Oswald then got into the nest and waited. While there, he
>>was seen by Arnold. A few minutes later, Williams left the floor to go to the
>>5th floor. Then Oswald was seen at ~12:30 by Brennan and Euins as he fired the
>>last shot. Oswald then made his getaway.
>
>Nice fantasy. Not one scrap of evidence though.

And the best you can do is have one woman who says she saw him "about 12:15"
in the lunchroom. By the way, Oswald never claimed to have seen her. Why not?
You'd think that he would have been trying for all the support he could get.
Maybe she convinced herself over time that she did see him at 12:15 when, in
fact, she didn't. Her statement to the FBI says that she thought she saw him.
Jarman says that he didn't see Oswald, when Oswald saw him and a short negro.
Did Jarman lie? Why?

Tony Simon
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk