From: nasiatka@anhep3.anl.gov.bitnet (Jim Wylde)
Subject: Re: Devil CD's
Keywords: hot rails to hell
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:24:55 GMT


(Daniel Bidwa) writes:
>
>>ME memememememememe:
>Jim Wylde (nasiatka@anhep3.anl.gov.bitnet):
>|>I'll agree with you on most of that, as far as some of the
>|>content goes, but on thier last album they did break some
>|>new musical ground by getting the producer from Moley Crue
>|>in to help hone thier sound.
>
>Some (like me) would argue that this was not such a good thing.
>Sure, it sounds better than "...And Justice For All", but you still can't hear
>the bass (for the most part), and the drums still sounds terrible. Bob Rock
>(the producer in question, for those who don't follow this hoohah) gave their
>sound the gloss that probably put them onto pop radio, but, like I said, this
>is arguably not such a good thing.

Oh, I don't know about that....  I mean it's really nice to just be a
'cult' band have a small, dedicated, faithful following, but to really
make it big means that: A) more people get exposed to you, even if the 
first set of stuff they hear is pop-ish.  They dig it, do some digging
for the other stuff, and maybe get a lot of new fans.  B)  It keeps the
record companys happy, so they let you make more.  C)  You get to
make a bit more money 'cause now yer big-time.  Oh, yeah, D) you get to
stop having to play small bars/clubs 'cause you can fill a 30,000 seat
arena!

Personnally, I think it's sort of an in-genre crossover.  Not really a
sell-out, just exploring new turf.  Kinda like Bono and U2 playing with
BB King.  Did Bono sell out as some U2 purists claim?

(ps - this is coming from a musicians standpoint....)

>(Just for comparison's sake, I think that the production on the last few
>Anthrax records has been right on target; that's the way I think good 
>production should sound. I don't think that a mainstream crowd is 
>necessarily desirable, especially when it involves tailoring the band's 
>sound just to gain popularity (which, in all the interviews I've read, 
>sounds like the real reason they switched producers).

I like Anthrax's last couple too.  Especially Killer B's.  Again, kind of
a crossover with rap....  Although I'm The Man wins out!
I ain't seen the interviews your talking about, but I haven't looked for
them either.  But again, see the last paragraph for some of the reasoning
behind doing something like that.

>It's also hard to say that Metallica's recent album could've _not_ been a huge
>success no matter who produced it, considering how popular "Justice" was in
>spite of its epic-length songs and brittle production. I suspect that any
>Metallica record with sub-five-minute songs was fated to be a big deal.

Mememememe again:
>|>If you look at some of the stuff like 'Johhny Get Your Gun'
>|>(based off a VERY good film that has some really nifty
>|>social statements in it) or 'Justice for All'  You can see
>|>that they are at least well read and educated, and that
>|>they reflect it in their music.


>Nifty in comparison to what? Paula Abdul? Okay, I can buy that, but just
>because their social statements are unique to pop radio doesn't make them any
>more mature than most of the poop already there. I'm glad to see that stuff
>like "One" is getting exposure, as I think that encouraging nonconformity is
>generally a good thing (if somewhat contradictory), but I don't see it as
>demonstrative of any sort of mature political or social agenda. "One" (and the
>movie "Johnny Get Your Gun") says what, that war is stupid? Okay, Culture Club
>said the same thing, only more blatantly -- does that mean that they were well
>read and educated, and better at expressing ideas than Metallica? (Like this
>could be considered quantitatively in the first place...) Not to say that
>Metallica is stupid (young, maybe), but geez, this isn't Noam Chomsky we're
>talking about here.

Yeah, yer right, it's also not Kafka, Jefferson, Niche, or Zappa.  It's
only Rock N Roll (pardon, please).  It's supposed to get you to think
and have some emotions about a situation.  Rather than analyze "One" that
critically, think about the subtle message, FEEL the emotion that the
guy must be going through....  Let the words and images involve you and
become part of you, rather than a series of notes, chords and lyrics.

(Sorry Grasshopper, for that little Kung-Fu slip, but you get the gist?)

And from last weeks episode::
>>And the idea that either band has serious political views is ludicrous.
>
>|>Not just political views, but opinions on social issues as well.  To tell me
>|>that Dave Mustaine, Mr. ex-coke head, anti-drugs, Ross Perot supporter
>|>(initially), who covered the Dem. National Convention for MTV has no
>|>political views is ludicrous. 
>
>Okay, point taken. I guess I should've said "mature, defensible political
>views", or some such. But again, how well do those views come through in the
>music, without needing to sandbagged by stuff like the Convention coverage?
>You mention "Peace Sells" and "Hangar 501"; they're both decent tunes, but
>they aren't saying much besides "the system sucks" and "the government is a
>big conspiracy", both of which are hardly new views. (New to popular metal,
>true, but punk's been saying this stuff for ages; I suppose you could argue
>that this is just another part of the hardcore crossover to metal.) It's still
>better than that damn "Cherry Pie" songs, but it's hardly the voice of
>political maturity.

Oh, you wanted matureity???  Dave Mustaine?  Mature?  NOT!!!
But hey, at least he has his views, and encouraged others to have thier
own as well.  (So does Nugent and many others...)

I know punk/hardcore has been saying that for ages.  I broke my first bones
to the Circle Jerks and Ministry.  And I'm sure there will be some other
form of music in 10 years or so that will say it again.  Every generation
has to have that...  Plus, the system *does* suck.  you want to go even
further back, look at Jefferson Airplane, Arlo Guthrie, The WHO...  Were 
they saying anything really different?


more memeemememe:::
>|>If you really want to listen to some cool death-metal, try Testament.  You'll
>|>find that not only is the lead singer *HOT*, but he sings of such nasty stuff
>|>as Rain Forest destruction, and the like....
>
>Eh, they're okay (although I have to admit that I haven't paid much attention
>to them for the last few years -- I've heard that they've dropped most of
>their Metallica imitations; 

I don't ever remember them doing Metallica imitations...  but I've only 
been a fan for a few years.

>I do remember an Aerosmith(?) cover from a few albums back, enough to be 
>able to hum it :-). 

Kewl!!!

>I much prefer the looks of
>the lead singer for Deicide (the upside-down-cross branded on his forehead
>isn't even too bad), who also has a _deep_ speaking voice and a phenomenal
>stage presence (in a sort of Mansonesque fashion).  Boy, am I glad that beards
>have once again become acceptable metal style! Yum!

Not familiar with em...  Personally, though I'd flip my legs up in the air
for Young Mr. SAtan Spawn himself: Glen Danzig.... :)

>
>|>[Helot Revolt] is a pretty decent band, more of a stage show like
>|>early Kiss though, but with a MAJOR political message...Their album
>|>'Bigotry is Not Rebellion' is out
>
>Well, while most of the metally inclined people at the station I work at lean
>fairly heavily towards the deathlier side of metal, we'd certainly like to
>have a copy of the album if you can spare it. 

I'll pop some promo lit to ya, and I'll get in touch with Jack and get him
to send an album to ya!

>Wow, rap, punk, and now metal -- soc.motss is certainly hitting the fringes of
>queer-accepted music lately. Klezmer, anyone?

Whaddya mean fringes?  How many of your gay friends grew up with Rock?
Most of mine just ditched it because *you have to be into dance music*
to be gay.... (YEECH!!!!)

Hell, up till recently, I ran the Gay Metal Society here in Chicago.
Group of Heavy Metal Homos into all sorts of rock/metal.  We did parties,
and had metal nights at local queer bars, and were somewhat political in
interfacing with the music scene out here.  You'd be surprised how many
gays/lesbians there are on the rock scene...

Have a good weekend!

Hippie Jim

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