From: perry@apollo.hp.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Humanism
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:36:18 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Aug31.183510.29615@newsgate.sps.mot.com> weaver@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Dave Weaver) writes:
>
>Two comments on the original post: 
>
>perry@apollo.hp.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>People do evil things, humans are not entirely good...
>>A relatively small number of misguided people can
>>produce considerable misery.  Nevertheless, that vast majority of
>>people throughout history have been basically good.  It is a vast leap
>>from "some people do evil" or "humanity is imperfect" to "humanity is
>>evil".  I find the latter a very negative and unfortunate attitude.
>
>and 
><SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET> Jack Carroll writes:
>>Evil is, of course, to be found in the actions of humankind, but 
>>then so is good...
>>That man may be inclined to ignorance and tend to be more or less
>>greedy and aggressive would be difficult to deny, but that he is
>>inherently evil is too facile a misanthropy.
>
>
>Does not the frequency and severity of mankinds mistreatment of his 
>fellow man cause you to consider that there may, in fact, be something
>inherently wrong with the character of humankind?

No.  Or rather, yes, I have heard this proposed (it's hard to miss,
living in a Christian-derived society), and have rejected it as not
being in accordance with the facts as I observe them.  This attitude
presupposes that humankind *ought* to be perfect, flawless, and that
any deviation from perfection is "wrong" or "flawed".  I don't see any
reason to expect perfection, whatever that might be, and instead see
social goodness (morality, enlightened altruism, call it what you
will) triumphing over individual selfishness most of the time (while
not denying the existence of selfishness; I consider achieving a
balance between altruism and selfishness the essence of morality).

>The fact that there are many who devote time, energy, and resources for the
>service of those less fortunate does not necessarily lead to the conclusion
>that corruption of character is not present. Were the Carnegie libraries 
>an example of altruism or of an old man's attempt to justify the profits from 
>years of labor exploitation?

Probably some of each, without knowing more of the details of
Carnegie's biography.  There were many who exploited labor or
otherwise thrived as capitalist robber barons, not all of whom were as
generous in return.

>That mankind naturally tends toward selfishness, greed, jealousy, physical 
>and verbal violence (visiting any preschool should provide sufficient empirical
>evidence) leads me to conclude that there is an inherent character deficiency
>in humankind. Do not misunderstand, I am not saying that people are as corrupt
>as they can possibly be, just that we are all sufficiently corrupt in our 
>natures that the above characteristics are rather inevitable. 

It depends on what your expectations are; if you expect perfection
(according to whatever standard), you will inevitably be disappointed
by reality.  I observe rather that humans as individuals naturally
tend to selfishness, and that through socialization we can learn to be
more socially conscious (moral).  In the same preschool where you see
character deficiency and imperfection, I see teachers imparting such
attitudes as "how would you like it if your friends treated you that
way", and "how would it be if everyone behaved like that", and small
children learning to share and behave socially.  Clearly (to me; I am
wary of that word in this forum) the process is more successful in
some cases than in others.  Again, perhaps it's just personal
preference, but I find the idea of seeing corruption in the cheerful
anarchy of a room full of toddlers rather sad and unfortunate.

>Dave Weaver

-- 
Jim Perry   	    	    	    Distributed Object Computing Program
perry@apollo.hp.com	    	    Hewlett-Packard Co., Chelmsford MA
This is the way the breakfast ends, not with a wimp but a banger.
Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:15406 alt.atheism:16363