From: jimc@cobabe.b11.ingr.com (Jim Cobabe)
Subject: Re: herd mentality
Reply-To: jimc@cobabe.b11.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 20:51:54 GMT

In article <4401.29E334B5@umagic.FIDONET.ORG>, Christian.Walters@umagic.FIDONET.ORG (Christian Walters) writes:
(stuff deleted)
|> No, I don't require perfect knowledge of anything. It's okay for you to
|> be against abortion, but when asked why, I don't think it's wrong to
|> want a better answer than "because." You can join the KKK if you want,
|> but if you're quizzed on why you hate black people,is it wrong to want
|> an answer better than "I just do"? These are the kinds of people I'm
|> talking about - the people that become Nazis because of something they
|> saw on TV, etc. NOT the people who join the Audubon Society on a mad
|> lark. (Even though I guess it COULD extend to them. "Why do you like
|> birds?" "I just do." "Don't evade the question!" :) )

Hmm...

We seem to be back to the "normative argument" requirement once
again.  You expect people to follow some critera imposed by you before
they can "reasonably" act upon their convictions.  If they don't satisfy
your requirement, you consider them a "herd".

|> >It is obviously untrue that these people don't "figure out their own
|> >personal feelings", as you state.  What _is_ true is that they have not
|> >approached the issue with the same perspective and point of view that
|> >you see it from.
|>  
|> Fair enough. Why is it wrong for me to question their point of view? I
|> don't have a problem with people who see things differently. I *do* have
|> a problem with the people who leap before they look. Remember, I am not
|> trying to criticize people who see things differently than I do. I am
|> criticizing the people who act out of peer pressure, hatred, vengeance,
|> and so on.

Well, yes.  But you seem to lump everyone who joins an activist group
(except the ones whose causes you support, I am sure) into this "herd"
category.  Everyone is free to have opinions different than yours, unless
they act upon them, whereupon they are just exhibiting "herd mentality".

|> >I am sure you are adamant about defending the rights of these people to
|> >their own personal opinions.  Why make such a derogatory
|> >characterization of the choices that so many make?
|>  
|> Which choices am I being derogatory about? The Nazis? The KKK? The poor
|> dears - I didn't know they were so sensitive.

How about the NOW?  Does a public demonstration with thousands of
participants constitute symptoms of "herd mentality"?  Or is this group
composed entirely of people who act only after carefully considered and
logical planning?
 
|> Of course people have a right to think what they wanna think. When this
|> thought transforms into actions, though, we can't afford to be quite as
|> easygoing.

So, which ones do you want to restrain?  Let me guess...
 
|> You can disagree with me about abortion if you want, but be prepared for
|> a fight when you ready the fire bomb for the abortion clinic. You can
|> not like particular books, but be ready for an argument when you try to
|> ban them or burn them.

I didn't venture an opinion on abortion.  But if you wish to characterize
proponents of one side of this controversy as a "herd", I suppose a case
could be made for labelling the other side as the same.

Ah, yes, the ever popular book-burning stigma.  Sometime this week I
heard a discussion about removal of Twain's literary classic _Huckleberry
Finn_ from the required reading list of some oh-so-politically-correct
institution of elementary education.  Have you heard about this?  Does
this qualify as "herd mentality"?

|> >People are motivated to join groups for many reasons.  Most of the time
|> >the reasons are good.  The vast majority of organizations that you
|> >characterize as "gangs" were originally formed with the best of
|> >intentions.
|>  
|> Ah, yes. Paving the road to hell with the intentions of gangs. "I had
|> the best intentions during that drive-by shooting. Honest." Besides,
|> when did I characterize gangs? Do you mean that the new youth
|> organizations in Huntsville are NOT gangs?

I was thinking more of the teen-age gangs that I associate with.
Boy scouts.  Sunday school groups.  Things like that.

|> >And if you belittle or discredit everyone that tends to associate with
|> >a group, you are pretty much putting down everyone.
|>  
|> You're right! Whew! Lucky for me I wasn't doing this!

It is lucky for you.  I was ready to summon the appropriate
thought-enforcement official to administer the proper punitive
measures.  :-)
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