From: KATHY MCCLOSKEY <KMCCLOSKEY@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: my two cents about on-line discrimination
Date: 20 Nov 1992 21:10:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

I've been struggling with some pretty harsh feelings about discussions on this 
net and others, and couldn't quite put a finger on it.  Ever since a male 
correspondent suggested he'd like to snuggle something between my breasts a 
while back (during a discussion of objectification of the male anatomy), 
something just hasn't been right with me.  My first reaction was laughter, but 
as time went on, it stuck with me.

And then, just when I thought I had no more "aha's" left in this old body, I 
received the two articles I just posted here.  The heretofore unrelated (in MY 
mind) notions of two different ways men and women investigate and interact 
with the world (male=willfulness; female=interactiveness), and the tone and 
bandwidth of the networks I'm on, came together.  I began to count the number 
of males vs females who posted on this net, as well as examine the tone of 
each poster in relation to gender and -- "AHA!"  This particular clicking-
into-place was news to me, but not to a whole host of other people:

In just the last week, feminism.soc had, of all postings, approximately 70% 
men, 20% women, and 10% undetermined by an examination of the name.

It's not surprising, then, for me to see the recent discussion of Camilia 
Paglia and rape take precedence, or other discussions along the same vein.  
Are the two simply correlated, or casual?  My contention, with no hard 
evidence whatsoever, is that they're casually related.

Savour these tidbits (some paraphrased from memory) from the net:

"Seduction is the process of turning a no into a yes."

"Rape cannot be rape without a direct physical threat."

"Paglia is without a doubt a true feminist."

"It's refreshing to have a REAL PERSON (a real woman?) agree... [with his
view of rape, whatever that was]."

"If men have traditional views about women, they're quite unlikely to harass 
them."

"I think the differences [you assert exist] between sexual harrassment and
just plain harassment are dangerously misleading."

"It is right for gender stereotypes to exist as they do."

"It would be better for people in general if woman's lives continue to be 
controlled in a different manner than men's..."

"How can you be sure he really was trying to be sexist, and just didn't know 
the effects of what he was doing?"

"Wouldn't you agree that most incidences where women feel left out of 
discussions are really their own fault?"

This last one brings me to the heart of the whole thing.  Feminism, to the 
core, is not about exclusion, but inclusion.  And while it may be frustrating 
and VERY discouraging to forever seem to be in the role of "teacher" to men 
struggling with the insights and feelings feminist thought arouses in them, we 
must continue to do so.  To sit idle and allow the airtime to be cluttered 
with abstract, non-practical tracts concerning the "morality" of rape (as just 
one example) between mostly men who have never experienced even the threat of 
such a scenario, well, it is really our (women's) fault if we allow it to 
continue without bringing the boys back to earth.

I know we're a physical minority on this net, just as we are throughout the 
"higher" levels of computer-dom.  All the more reason to get off our duffs.
Okay, I feel better now.

Kathy
kmccloskey@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil

PS     "Men" DOES NOT equal ALL men.
PPS     This was not meant to start a flame war.
PPPS    This WAS meant as a call for balance between control and emergence.


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