HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: akerr@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Austin Kerr)
Subject: Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:16:07 GMT

In corporate American, I suspect secrecy was very common well before WWII.  In 
writing the history of BFGoodrich (the current logo), Blackford and I have 
learned that even in the earliest days, when the firm was the only rubber 
manufacturer west of the Appalachians, Dr. B.F. Goodrich (he was an M.D.) kept 
a careful record of research done in his small laboratory by himself in a code.
 Rubber manufacturing is very much a chemical business, among other matters, 
and the compounding of rubber was (and is) something that can give a company a 
competitive edge.

Austin Kerr  Ohio State University
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:26:00 CST
From:         CAMPBELL-JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Churchill's Plot to Get the U.S into WWII

    There is no evidence that Churchill knew about the Japanese
    plans for attacking Pearl Harbor. Or for attacking Singapore,
    where Churchill's own fleet was sunk a few days later.
    --Historians have long agreed that FDR definitely wanted the US
    into the war against Germany.  The puzzle is why FDR took a hard
    line against Japan at the same time he was building what he
    called an "arsenal of democracy" & using it to defeat Germany
    (by aiding the British all-out). Waldo Heinrich recently has
    given the best explanation. [Threshold of War, 1988] Washington
    was convinced that Japan was about to attack the USSR, via
    Siberia. [not true, as Stalin knew from his spy Sorge in Tokyo.]
    With the Germans rolling toward Moscow, FDR panicked and decided
    that USSR [and global anti-fascism] would fall if Japan
    attacked. Solution: cut off Japan's oil so they could not wage a
    land war. Expectation: Japan could not wage a naval war either
    and would bend to US-British-Dutch terms. Surprise: Japan
    instead decided (after bitter debate) to attack south, against
    US-Britain-Dutch.
    --Churchill was flooded with rumors (as was everyone else),
    99.99% of which were false; no good ways to detect the "true"
    rumors (which became "true" only after the predictions happened,
    sometime in the future.)  FDR got the rumors too.  Rumors all
    predicted war somewhere, somehow, with somebody. (which is
    indeed what happened.)
    Richard Jensen,  CAMPBELLD@apsu
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 14:01:47 EST
From:         JDICHTL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU
Subject:      I would like to unsubscribe from the list
Comments: To: history%rutvm1.bitnet@pucc.Princeton.edu

I, JDICHTL, would like to have my name/address removed from "HISTORY."
Thanks.
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 16:00:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

>..This is what I mean when I claim that war needs to be seen as an option
>of diplomacy,not a failure of it.

>No, I stand by my earlier post:any time a war breaks out,one or more of the
belligerents has made a grave mistake...gallows pun fully intended.
>>
I see, I have a question: who do you define as the  belligerents in a war?
Let us say the U.S had nothing to do with the start of the war (of course some
would say that the U.S is behind every foreign occurance), when I say "the" war
I mean a hypothetical situation, the war is between to opposing countries who
I can understand you might call belligerents. Now let's say we granted you
your statement that any wat is a grave mistake, therefore shouldn't the war be
finished as soon as possible and stop the mistake before it goes out of hand.
Therefore couldn't we justify U.S intervention in the internal affairs of other
countries.
War is a world-wide tradition since the begining of time. Whether it is wrong
or right it has existed and most probably will exist until universal utopia is
reached. Therefore, if U.S intervention to stop a war, or help a certain side
which supports our country's interests win the war, can't we justify it?
hanks
yoni
(I meant that thanks up above.)
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:39:54 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Lenny, the story of the chronometers is told in an epic poem by
an Australian poet, A. D. Hope,

	Two chronometers the Captain [Cook] had,
	One by Harrison that ran like mad,
	One by Kendall in a walnut case,
	Poor demented creature with a hangdog face...

And so, on, for innumerable stanzas - I learned large chunks of it
at school, and it used to be burnedinto the brains of numerous
Australian children!
Marion
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:52:00 CST
From:         CAMPBELL-JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?

    I was chatting with some historians yesterday and the question
    of the quality of the University of Arkansas came up.  It was
    suggested that the academic standing of that university-- and
    higher education generally in Clinton's state-- is quite poor,
    and notably worse than in neighboring states. Does anyone have
    any information on what impact Clinton has had on higher
    education?
    Richard Jensen, U of Illinois Chicago
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:19:15 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      The advent of "technological secrecy"

Hello, Allan;

I should think that the tank of WWI would make a good example of technological
secrecy, since the cover that the workers were manufacturing water-tanks is
enshrined in the name of the weapon system itself.

More to the point, the answer to your question might in some measure depend
upon what one considered technology. In the Roman and Medieval worlds, magic
was considered a "technology." The date and times of ruler's births were kept
a close a secret as possible because they provided the data for casting a
horoscope of the ruler. In Roman times, casting such a horoscope was
punishable by death -- but only after torture to try to determine who had
"leaked" the critical data.

The secrecy was so pervasive that monarchs usually celebrated their birthdays
on officially set days, so court ritual and public rejoicing took place at a
time that everyone knew was false. The custom survives in England in the
official Queen's birthday.

Is that too far out?

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
From: welling@LET.RUG.NL (George Welling)
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Subject: ahc-workgroup
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:33:54 GMT
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On the general AHC-meeting in Bologna Manfred Thaller announced that I would
be organizing a workgroup on standards for spreading algorithmic knowledge for
the historical disciplines (not a good name). Since then I have been looking
into our possiblities here in Groningen and it seems that there can be funding
for this activity. I would like to know if there are people who would want to
take part in this workgroup.
The idea is that there are two groups in the historical disciplines using
computers: one is the group of intelligent end-users, the other a small, but
growing group of software developers for the historical disciplines. Most
members of the first group are hardly interested in algorithmic aspect of the
software they use, but the second group is. In computational linguistics there
is a tradition of making algorithms public, alas not in our discipline. To
bring historical-computing on a higher level, it would be nice if some
standards for publication of algorithms could be developed.
Workgroups consist of a small group of experts on the subject, usually
somewhere around 10 persons, and these should come from different countries.
If there are people interested in joining this group, I would ask them to get
in touch with me.
--
                =
             ___|_____               George M. Welling
            /        __|____           phone : +31 50 63 54 74
       _|__         /      /             fax : +31 50 63 49 00
      /    /_______/______/                History and Computing  HCI
     /____/    | ______|__                 depart. ALFA-INFORMATICA
 _______|______|_\  o o o |              University of Groningen
      \  o o o o o o o o  |            welling@let.rug.nl
        \                 /
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:05:51 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2
From:         Allan Needell <NASSH100@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      The advent of "technological secrecy"

From: Allan Needell

Jim, Lynn, et. al,

I think Jim has made a good point and it relates to Lynn's "far out" one. It
concerns the claim of a qualitative shift in the context of the American
(maybe Western political economy). While secrecy and the control of
information may not have conflicted with the monarchy, and while the control
of information about a specific new weapon (tank, etc.) in a military arsenal
may have not been disruptive to general economic and political discourse, the
1930's attempt to control a major aspect of the development of radio
technology was a qualitatively larger disruption to the "system" (political
economic industrial) than we have seen before. Another aspect of the
qualitative shift is that soon (by 1941) the control over radio technology and
theory extended beyond the shop floor and military laboratory (NRL and Fort
Monmoth) to the university classroom and laboratory.

Allan Needell
National Air & Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution
Washington, DC 20560  (BITNET: NASSH100@SIVM)
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From: hiscrp@nuscc.nus.sg (C R Pennell)
Subject: ship types
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 04:42:36 GMT

I've been watching this group for a while, without participating, and
I'd really like to ask for some xpert opinion. Please could anyone help
with this:

I am working on piracy/privateering in early 19th century (definition
arguments for another occasion!) and I keep getting references to people
flying the flags of S.American republics (Rio de la Plata and Colombia,
mainly) and that of France raiding shipping in the Atlantic using boats
described as "hermaphrodite brigs" has anyone any idea what a
hermaphrodite brig IS, and how it differs from an ordinary brig, and
why/whether it would be particularly useful for piracy/privateering? I'd
appreciate answers to the group, as I suspect there may be a number of
explanations, and one posting prompts another and also because I'm
pretty incompetent with this network thing using Internet and I'm not
sure how I'd pick up any mail that was sent to me direct.

Thanks a lot (I hope)

Richard Pennell, History Dept, NUS
From: c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK (Christopher Currie)
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Subject: Re: Reply to bob pasker
Date: 10 Sep 92 09:51:22 GMT
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>
>
> Well, no, Proust represents one of the numerous huge gaps in my erudition. If
> your allusion is to the superfluity of autobiographical drivel,

I suspect Bob's allusion was to syntactical complexity and inordinate sentence
length. But Dan could have learned those from other admired authors, e.g.
H. James and Thucydides ;-)


> there are all kinds of studies of competitive advantages enjoyed by reason of
> height, looks (your face not your race), and other occupationally irrelevan,
> or are they, factors.
>
>
Have there been any serious studies of alphabetism?

Christopher
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:21:29 EDT
From:         phil <SPINELLI@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Corn Laws, UK vs. Japan

Ken - all the Japanese experts are in Japan right now - Bill Coyle, Larry Deato
n, and John Dyke.  The other one - Lois Caplan - is on vacation.  They, I am su
re, would put a significantly different spin on the points raised here.  You'll
 have to wait. Sorry.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:53:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?

Let me reiterate that I do not wish to offend anyone,
that it perhaps makes most sense to evaluate institutions
field by field rather than overall, and that one must
keep separate an institution's graduate and undergraduate
programs. Nevertheless, one must be realistic. While I
have no doubt that all Doctoral I institutions are major
research universities, I suspect that some are more major
than others.
Denis Paz
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:06:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?

On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:32:17 EDT Cal <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> said:
> Denis make an overbroad statement about the lure of the South.         the

We have had some problems luring faculty here at Clemson, problems
having to do with location more than anything else.
(1) Rural v. urban -- Some people are willing to come to the
South from the East and Midwest, but they would rather live in
the South of Atlanta, Charlotte, Asheville, than the South of
Clemson.
(2) The lack of subcultures -- Some people have turned us down
because of the lack of a big Jewish community.

Cal mentioned the great contribution of North Carolina to higher
education. I don't know what he had in mind -- but in ambience
Chapel Hill is closer to Ann Arbor than to Fayetteville (or Clemson).

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 09:02:11 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: ship types
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Richard,
I'm interested in your work on piracy/privateering in the early 19C
generally - can you tell us any more about it?  In particular, have
you com e across any British/Australian ships privateering in the Pacific -
I've been trying to trace references to Australian whalers off South
America during the Napoleonic wars, which seem to have been more interested
in prize ships than in catching whales.  Send to me direct, if you can,
and we can go _private_, to the greater convenience of the rest of the
list.
Cheers,
Marion Diamond,
History Department
University of Queensland
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:03:12 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	Seems that someone else made a comparative statement about the
relative strengths of universities in the South.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:51:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?

On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:31:00 EDT JOSE said:
>
> All well and good.  But, then, how do you explain Clemson's
> "distinguished History faculty"?
>
> One distinguished colleague to another!
>
> JLA

Why, the opportunity to be a member of the Clemson
Family, of course.

Denis
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:50:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: World's oldest tourist trap in North America?

On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:16:39 EDT "Daniel A. Foss"
<DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU> said:

> This would all depend very greatly on what you meant by City, would it not? If
> you wanted to badly enough, you could always call Catal Huyuk, . . .  , Lerna
> a City.                                                               s joined

Ah, but did Catal Huyuk have a bishop? As a well known scholar once
said, "No bishop, no city."

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:32:17 EDT
From:         Cal <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?
Comments: To: History <HISTORY%RUTVM1.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
              14 Sep 1992 13:31:00 EDT from
              <JOSE%CLEMSON.BitNet@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>

Denis make an overbroad statement about the lure of the South.  One of the
attractions of the University at Chapel Hill is precisely its climate, and
its isolation.  For many years they've been able to keep salaries low
because of the general attraction of what the locals call "The Southern
Part of Heaven."

A long history of achievement helps.  As does a generally distinguished
faculty, tremendously strong is some disciplines but with at least one
or two national and international figure in just about every department,
even those that are generally weak, service departments.

More: North Carolina has been a relatively poor state, but it has been
making a relatively large contribution to higher education.

Yet, Denis is right in summary: There's little that a governor can do in
the face of an institution's history and a state's economy.

[Don't be fooled by my current mailing address.  I spent a decade down
there and would still be there except that by moving I was able to
increase my salary by 50% with a stronger pension plan.]

Cal Pryluck                               <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Dept of Radio-Television-Film             <PRYLUCK@TEMPLEVM>
Temple University
Philadelphia, PA 19122                    voice (215) 247-9663
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:48:27 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?
              10 Sep 1992 09:19:36 +1000 from <phs172m@VAXC.CC.M ONASH.EDU.AU>

On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 09:19:36 +1000 Stephen Harker said:
>In article <1992Sep8.184158.16049@compu.com>, fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from
>home) writes:
>> yeonwook@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
>>
>> Mexico City is not exactly considered North American now, is it?
>
>	Yes, where else is it but North America?  The Americas consist of
>two continents North America and South America.  When you look at a map it
>is clear that Mexico and Mexico city are in North America.  It becomes even
>clearer when you look at a map of the continental plates.
>
My latest issue of =Science= calls it "mesoamerica."  I think a good many
people would call it "Central America."  Certainly the history of the area
pre-Columbus has more to do with Central America than with North America.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:45:21 -0400
From:         ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"

 *** Reply to note of 09/11/92 14:12
 Greetings and Salutations
 Funny thing about the Norden bombsight: "The Japanese managed to obtain their
 own copy of the bombsight in 1942, when they found it aboard some B-17s
 abandoned in Java. To their surprise, the Japanese discovered that the vaunted
 American technology was not very impressive; their own bombsight was
 superior." taken fromVolkman, Ernest and Blaine Baggett's _Secret
 Intelligence_. New York:Doubleday, 1989. pg 51. Hmmmmmm.

 |---------------|  I slept and dreamed that life was beauty;
 |Jim Emmons     |  I woke and found that life was duty.
 |<icjme@asuacad>|                   Ellen Sturgis Hooper
 |---------------|
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 15:44:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

I found Mitch Hagmaier's response interesting. While on one side I read
Austin Kerr's calling war a failure of diplomacy I see Hagmaier calling it
an option of diplomacy as he states:
>conversely, are you willing to see the Bosnian Muslem culture a community
destroyed and the bits blown to the four corners of the world? Any half-way
response or partial involvement*will* deepen the mess ans possibly create a
holacaust. This is what I mean when I claim that war needs to be seen as
an option of diplomacy,not a failure of it>

What I ask is whether it is fair to use historical examples to prove that
U.S military intervention is justified or not. WHen we use historical examples
aren't we just using hindsight? How can we use historical examples to come up
with a conclusion that U.S intervention is justified,unjustified, or justified
at times? Or can we possibly come up with a general principle using historical
examples? Can we say that U.S intervention is justified because if in the past
we had nor intervened millions of people would have died,human rights violated,
our interests threatened and so on.

Can we say that U.S intervention is justified using historical examples of when
we did not intervene and atrocities came about therefore the U.S should have
acted?
Thanks
Yoni
From: c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK (Christopher Currie)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: re: Clinton Administration?
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:14:03 GMT
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>Why wouldn't you buy a used car from Tricky Dick Nixon? Just his face. That
>messed up his entire life, almost feel sorry for him.

The 'used car factor' is why I don't believe in the Clinton etc. The one
poll where Bush has come out top lately is the one where people were
asked which candidate was more trustworthy.  On this rating Kinnochio
consistently did worse in the polls than that nice Mr. Major, despite
his party's lead on almost everything else. (That nice Mr. M's record
showed him even more devious than Kinnochio made no difference.)
To win, clinton needs not only to wear his heart on his sleeve,
 but his underpants outside his pants, IMHO.



C.
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:08:58 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: The food supply of Tenochtitlan.

Glenn, I'm glad you raised the point about American megafauna and llamas.
The North American megafauna had included horses, cameloids etc. but was
rendered extinct in the Palaeolitthic  by climatic changes, human activity,
or both. (I read an account a year or two ago of a case for climatic
change on its own ; can anyone remember who wrote it?)

Llamas can certainly pull wheeled carts, but not in mountainous Andean
conditions.

Please excuse the spelling - my bolshy terminal won't let me correct it.
Christopher
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