From: masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda)
Subject: Re: SEXISM IN JAPANESE WORKPLACE!!!!
Organization: Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:35:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.012201.16509@leland.Stanford.EDU> harumi@leland.Stanford.EDU (harumi ito) writes:

>For some reason, I feel like fish taking bait......

  I knew you would... 8-)

>In article <Bzq7wG.6D@ncifcrf.gov> masuda@fcs280b.ncifcrf.gov (Michiaki Masuda) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Dec22.050751.8476@leland.Stanford.EDU> harumi@leland.Stanford.EDU (harumi ito) writes:

>>>Being a wife and a mother involve heavier responsiblities
>>>and deeper committment in Japan than it does in the U.S.  

>>   I don't mean to be nit-picky, but "responsibility" and "commitment" are 
>>rather associated with an inner feeling. We may not be able to conclude 
>>easily that American wives and mothers are less responsible and less 
>>committed than the Japanese counterpart.

>I meant time commitment and responsibility to fulfill household duties. 
>I just did not want to use the word "obligation." I thought it is too
>impersonal a word to describe family matters.  I did not mean to offend
>any American wives and mothers.  

   If what you are trying to say is that in Japan, there is a stronger
expectation than in the US that women are committed to and responsible
for the family matters, that might be true (although there are many 
exceptions). However, it IS possible to reduce time commitments and 
responsibilities for housekeeping jobs in Japan to almost the same level
as in the US. Therefore, I still doubt that being a wife and a mother
requires more in Japan than in the US.
 
>I have this stereotyped idea that many, if not most, Japanese husbands
>expect to wake up in the morning smelling misoshiru from the kitchen
>and to have nice and hot dinner prepared when they go back home from
>work.  I admit that it is a streotype.  Sorry if I am wrong.  But, you
>get my idea.

   This is not a stereotyped idea at all. Since the time when misoshiru
was invented, its nice smell has been waking up numerous Japanese husbands.  
And their children, who look at what their mother do to their father,
learn that that is THE way it goes. It's just a perception or expectation
based on history and tradition.

>  If I went to an "omiai" and told the other party that (1)
>I will be in school next couple of years, (2) I have no idea where in 
>the world I will be working after getting my degree ( my fingers are 
>crossed ), and (3) I usually go back home sometime between 8 pm and 3 am, 
>what would the chance that this "endan" would go forward.  If I were male, 
>things might be different.

   Uh-uh. I'm afraid that this is another counter-sexism. All the three
points are negative factors for men as well. 

> So, please just don't give me "oh, situations 
>are changing in modern Japan" kind of crap.  

   Open your eyes, and get real! Situations ARE changing in Japan, and this
is NOT a crap.

>I do pay respect to women who proudly take the "flexible career paths" 
>for family reasons.  I have no trouble with that as long as the society
>has given them full chance to develop their potentials and they have 
>considred their options carefully.

   In the society where most men are not given "full chance to develop
their potentials", why should women be treated differently?

>But, has the society given them fair
>chance to develop their potentials?  I have met many obasantachi with
>great vitalities.  When my mother talks about them, she often says "she
>could have made big in business if she were a man."

   There are not so many ojisantachi who can make big in business. If
all those obasantachi could have made big ONLY if they were men, that
would mean that obasan are inherently superior to ojisan. 

>Some people find their "ikigai" in their work.  Others find their "ikigai"
>in their family lives.  ( And, I should admit that there are some people 
>who strike good balance between them. )  Probably, one's character and 
>ability, etc. will determine where she/he can find her/his "ikigai".  
>I just do not believe that gender determines where one can find their
>"ikigai". 

  Good point. It is difficult for most men to persue "ikigai" in their
family lives.
 
>My mother has been a housewife since she got married at age 21.  When
>I was growing up, she often said, "Don't be like me.  Get some career."
>Well, it was not totally a right attitude.  But, there must have been 
>something which made her say that.  

   I don't know if you have a brother, but I'd be interested to know 
what your mother would say to her son. Would she say, "Don't hold on to
your career when it causes a conflict with your wife's career"?

>>  In order for a Japanese husband to be able to share a burden at home with
>>his wife, a rather drastic change in the general mentality (e.g., men have to
>>support the household, men have to work till the last minute, men's value
>>is determined according to their rank in the hierarchy, etc.) would be 
>>prerequisite. 

>I agree. They are not necessarily bad changes, are they.  I also realize 
>that these changes might place heavier burden on Japanese women, too 
>( such as they have to become more independent ).

   You are not looking for a good way to only reduce a burden of Japanese
women and to transfer it to Japanese men, are you?
If men shrare a part of burden that women has been carrying, women share
men's burden. The thing is so simple.

>  But, any societies which
>do not give individuals chances to develop their full potentials deserve 
>some changes, don't they? 

   If the change is expected to bring more good consequences than bad ones,
the society should consider going for it.

>I have no intention of comparing an average HANAKO and an able and 
>ambitious TARO.  I would shut up immediately if somebody assures me
>that equally able and ambitous TARO and HANAKO are getting equal chances
>in Japanese workplace.

   If you are trying to speak for HANAKO in general, you should not shut up
until you see that average HANAKO can get an opportunity equal to that of
average TARO, too.

>>>If we look around, there are not so many Japanese women climbing
>>>corporate ladders or whatever smoothly.

>>  If you think that being a man is an almighty certificate for climbing
>>up SMOOTHLY, that's a counter-sexism. (Ojisan datte ganbatte irunda!)

>You are twisting my argument, Masuda-san.  I have never said that anybody
>is having easier time.

   Then, "smoothly" was probably not the best choice of the word.

>  Are equally able and ambitious TARO and HANAKO
>climbing up with the equal difficulties?  That is my question.  

   Since I personally have never seen equally able and ambitious TARO and 
HANAKO in a competitive situation, I don't have the answer. Of course,
I know the fact that there are less female CEOs, female university
professors, female cabinet members, and so on, and I'd assume that
there is a reason for this.
 
>Somebody else also mentioned that what Doi-san meant was that most Japanese
>women do not want to have equal responsibility as "ojisan salarii man". But, 
>I think that "responsibility" is not the right word neither.  It almost 
>sounds like Japanese women are having easier time choosing family oriented 
>lifestyle.

   It sounded to me that many Japanese women have picked up a responsibility
different from the ones which ojisan salarymen are tied up with.

>When I read Doi-san's article, I was pulling 10am to 3am work hours to get
>some work done for my boss.  And, something in his statement really hit
>my nerve.  I thought I should say someting for all the sweat and tears of
>many of my female highschool classmates who are still unmarried and working
>in Japan at age of 28.  

   [Nit-picking mode on.]
   
   You don't care about all the sweat and tears of married classmates?

   [Off.]

>I will be leaving town tomorrow, and will not have access to the net until
>I come back on Dec 31.  So, Happy Holidays to everybody. Yoiotoshio.  

   Wish you a happy new year, too.

--Michiaki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan