HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: My Problems with GURPS
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:54:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.184010.4672@Princeton.EDU> mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>>GURPS has the problem of being overly specific or too generic when
>>it came to designing the system.  I think that the designers found a
>>nice, comfortable middle ground that's quite acceptable.  I've
>>rarely had a case where some "psych lim" or "physical lim" was so
>>obscure that either I couldn't stick it under one of the available
>>headings or I couldn't develop a point worth for it.
>
>It would be nice to find out the system they came up with for determining
>costs so I don't have to play a guessing game when I invent one of my own.

Simple.  Look at how much effect it has on the character's behavior.  The
greater the effect, the more points for it.  Examples abound in the Advantage
and Disadvantage list, with more under the Quirks.  Phobias, Social Stigma,
Addiction all give fairly detailed leveled Disads.

>>As always, if you have problems with a system, go ahead and change
>>it.  Nothing in GURPS says that you have to stick with the rules
>>presented...
>
>The problem comes in knowing that one has to tinker with a system
>heavily in order to get it to one's taste.

Is there a system (that you didn't develop) that has this?  Systemless
systems don't count.



-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:49:42 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <C19MI9.BBn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>
>That was one of the major reasons I dropped all attempt to use GURPS and
>went totally to HERO for multi-genre stuff. The weighting of attributes
>allows you to have the character you want without paying an arm and a
>leg. If you want to be the strong guy in a future campaign being played
>with normal people, it'll cost you 10 points out of a 150 point character.
>If you want to have the same DEX score, it will cost you 30 points. 
>I'd suggest something like redesigning the stat costs, but why bother
>when you can buy the HERO rule book for $20 dollars and all the GURPS books
>convert rather easily to HERO. 

Um, I hope nobody's under the impression that Hero stat costs are
balanced just cause they vary by stat.  The same argument -- that
a given stat has differing value depending on the genre -- applies
to Hero as much as it applies to GURPS.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
From: mavra@cpac.washington.edu (Peter D. Adkison)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: pricing and stuff
Date: 24 Jan 93 08:38:38 GMT
Organization: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey.cpac.washington.edu
In-reply-to: jnephew@tirith.carleton.edu's message of Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:06:00 GMT

Your prices look a little high, John, but not unreasonably so.  I
think WotC will have to start charging a bit more for its new products
than it otherwise would have, and that will bring our pricing scheme
pretty much in line with yours, although maybe not quite so high on
the upper end of your scale.

				--Mavra!
				  Peter D. Adkison
				  Janitor, Wizards of the Coast
				  mavra@wizards.com

The above internet address should be used for e-mail if it is
different from the e-mail address in the header.
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:32:27 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <1jvgr3INNeg4@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>You and I are net.gamers; we're a little bit more literate than the average
>gamer (ELITISM ALERT! ELITISM ALERT! DIVE DIVE DIVE!), and catch things like
>this. Most gamers still have -way- too much larval 'let's get that new +3 
>sword of weasel whacking' attitude, and to me, SR just reinforces that kind
>of play style. My experience tends to back that opinion up. Maybe yours 
>doesn't. <shrug>

Oh, no, the dreaded Noun of Verbing!

If ANYTHING needs to be removed from the RPG world, that's it.

BTW, I agree with you about Molly... I remember more about the person than the
hardware.

-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 21:08:11 GMT

In article <C1DEu9.7Kv@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:

 > The whole "damage is not realistic" argument is silly. RPG's don't have
 > realistic damage. GURPS cyberpunk is no more realistic than any other.
 > So you can kill someone with a 12 gauge if you are unskilled by game
 > mechanics. Big deal. Heck, if your GM can't make judgement calls, then
 > why is she GMing? Ever see anyone get nicked with a piece of shrapnel,
 > go into shock and die in GURPS cyberpunk? Doesn't happen, does it? 
 > Well, that happens in real combat... 
 
But yes, dying from shrapnel is perfectly possible in GURPS.  Well, maybe the 
game doesn't have rules for hydrostatic shock, but getting hit by a single 
fragment from a grenade could bring you into the "unconscious-and-slowly-
bleeding-to-death" category.  (Particularly if using my own house rules for
bleeding - the official bleeding rules are, admittedly, rather tame.)

-Leif Kj|nn|y
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:18:34 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1k2u9qINNhf4@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
><ahem> As said 'ranter' (isn't -all- of r.g.f.advocay ranting in one way or
>another?), I'm 'ranting' around a game background, style, and system that 
>(IMHO) encourages a play style that I think most of us here happen to find
>abhorent. 

	Actually, your rants about the background are the ones I find most
incomprehensible. You've called it derivative and flat. 

	To be honest, I haven't a clue as to how it's any MORE derivative
than most other games, and it's sure a lot LESS derivative than others.
The history is worked out in rather interesting detail and the basic 
idea and working of the Awakening seemed rather original to ME. That 
background is one of the reasons I LIKE ShadowRun.

>I'm -trying- to be relativly civil, as well. If I'm failing, let me know, 
>alright?

	That's your mistake.  This is .advocacy, remember?


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mfterman@flower.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire)
Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:57:35 GMT

In article <2314@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>	Then you aren't playing in the genre at all, and your claims
>about whether or not GURPS handles these well is at best very, very
>weak. The true SUPERHERO genre includes the nice people like Captain
>America, Superman, and Spider-man, in the days of the Comics Code.


Then all those comics put out by DC and Marvel that don't fall into
the Comic Code are of course not superhero comics, despite having many
people wearing special costumes, throwing around strange powers, and
so forth.

Have some news Seawasp, unhinge your prejudices for a little bit. There
are comics that span a whole spectrum of realism. There are very few
common elements other than usually having people performing superhuman
actions. You are not the definer of the genre. Champions itself points
out there are many types of campaigns, from bright four-color superhero
comics of the 1950's to the more shades-of-grey gritty comics that
are epitomized by Dark Knight Returns. Then there's the comic Miracleman
which did a new vantage on the superhero genre, including a battle that
destroyed London. Yes, the entire city.

>	Fine. Your opinion. In my completely godlike opinion, you're
>wrong. I've had acres of fun playing superheroes. We add SOME realism,
>but nowhere near THAT level.

In my supergodlike opinion, you are not the sole definer of genre. Besides,
everyone is familiar with the traditional superhero genre, some of us like
having a slightly more complex world. I'm hacking out a world where people
with superhuman powers are starting to appear and as time goes on the world
is going to have a serious alteration due to it.

-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
From: imeslsl@Msu.oscs.montana.edu (LEPRICAN~~~)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: NETMAP1.0 check it out in r.g.f.archives
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:42:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: Msu.00967342.EC223920
Reply-To: imeslsl@Msu.oscs.montana.edu (LEPRICAN~~~)
Organization: Montana State University

For you CP2020'ers, who have:
uudecode
PKUnzip
GWBasic
(IBM)
check out this feeble utility program by Sean Lambert....
It's all on rec.games.frp.archives for your enjoyment!
ooh, cut my .sig off the listing, too....
OOooops!
	Leprican~~~
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: mfterman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire)
Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:58:12 GMT

In article <C1F92o.8A4@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>Well, he does have a major point on the default skills. I think that the
>whole idea of default skills is one of GURPS biggest holes. High stat
>characters can do everything well, which isn't reality at all. (Ever
>ask a physics or chemistry grad student something not in her major?)
>If they want to pay points for the skills, I can deal with a high INT
>person being great at lots o' stuff, but getting it for free makes
>GURPS seem kind of bogus.

Also, I'd like to see the knowledge skill category like there is in the
HERO system. A lot of skills its not how well you can think, its merely
a matter of knowing facts. In the sciences you'd have a physics int skill
and a physics knowledge skill. High int skill, low knowledge skill and
you have a young genius who has a lot to learn. High knowledge and low
int, and you have someone who isn't very creative but can recall enough
jouranl references to solve the problem.


-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 04:25:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

In article <C1H4C7.F54@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>>The GURPS CP Adventures book is -not- hard-linked with anything in the GURPS
>>CP book. 'DNA/DOA' and company -are- hard-linked to the base SR rules. Do you
>>get what I'm trying to say here?
>>(And, for the record, I didn't like GURPS CP Adventures anyway. Felt too much
>>like SR.)
>Aha! So FASA can be indicted for crappy modules, but GURPS can't be...
>I see the logic here..NOT!

Axly, I'm dropping this discussion after a few more posts to clarify a few
things, because it appears that people are taking my criticisms of SR's 
background and style personally. That, and the fact that I appear to (GASP!)
have been wrong about SR, at least in part. I still feel that SR encourages
a play style I find disheartening, but it's obvious (from the volume of 
postings on the subject) that I'm in the minority and that there are lots of
people who play SR in a style which could hardly be called 'munchkin'. 

So, in essense, I'm summing up and dropping out. Satisfied? You've won.

-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: seawasp+@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Congratulations, Doc Kromm!
Date: 23 Jan 93 02:08:12 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


	Just LOOK at all these lovely posts! Why, we've started a genuine
WAR here. Isn't it enough to warm your heart through and through? I feel
so PROUD... Maybe we can get Dave Nalle medals!


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:04:57 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <2337@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>
>	(Followups sent to rec.games.frp.advocacy, so don't flame me here)
>In article <1993Jan21.174827.10057@news.vanderbilt.edu> talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert) writes:
>>It is hard to get an 18 in *any* attribute in GURPS. You have to spend a
>>*hell* of a lot of points, or take some god-awful disadvantage. And yes, 
>>this is realistic -- 18 on the bell curve for 3d6 would correspond to about
>>the upper 2% or something like that.
>
>	Here is where you're making a mistake. If GURPS numbers like the
>stats are on the bell curve, I'm Queen Elizabeth. 18 is 1 out of 216. That's
>a respectable intelligence but not all THAT impressive. If you use IQ scores
>at all, that would put me out around 19 or 20. And *I* can't do anything like
>all the things a GURPS *16* can do... and a 16 can be gotten fairly easily in a
>reasonable power game. Get your 16, spend a few points on skills, and there's
>virtually NOTHING you can't do, and do pretty damn well.
>
> People who are *that* smart (using IN
>>for an example) generally *can* do lots of things, that or have serious 
>>disadvantages (Stephen Hawking, for example).
>
>	Hawking isn't in the upper *2* percent. He's somewhere in the upper
>*.02* percent or better. 
>

Hey, I can agree with Sea Wasp for once!  There must be something wrong with
me.... B^)

IMHO, the breadth of the IQ curve in GURPS terms is about HALF that of a 3d6
distribution.  I'd estimate Hawking as about a 16 IQ in GURPS terms.  14
IQ and above should be less than 1% of the population, with most people in the
8-12 range.  An 18 IQ would be very rare; MAYBE there's someone out there in
the world today with such a mind.  Maybe not.

At any rate, just because it centers at 10 doesn't mean you should assume it
has a distribution that bears any resemblance to a 3d6 distribution.  Anyway,
3d6 centers at 10.5.  1/2 B^)


-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
From: nukenin@access.digex.com (R. Cliff Young)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: 28 Jan 1993 15:43:47 -0500
Organization: Talas Nukenin, courtesy of Express Access
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com
Summary: Ah, such naivete!
Keywords: flame GURPS Supers comics seawasp

In article <2292@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea
Wasp) writes:
>	And THAT is dead wrong for the genre. Especially the
>superheroes in the classic setting. Bombs go off, bullets fly,
>bystanders are HURT, but even bystanders generally don't DIE. Hell,
>if you are "realistic" with superhero combats, those brawls that
>wreck multiple city blocks should rack up four-digit death tolls.
>They don't.

Got any sources for this?  Just because the comics don't focus on
"innocent deaths" doesn't mean they don't happen.  Please, Sea Wasp,
list a few specific examples of "superheroes in the classic setting"
(by which I assume you mean comics, but PLEASE, correct me if I'm
mistaken!) in which a panel or three is spent after the "brawl that
wrecked multiple city blocks that should have racked up a four-digit
death toll" showing us that this "four-digit death toll" was indeed
NOT "racked up".

	Batman <despondent look>: <sigh> Well, the Sea Wasp is
	apprehended once again, but alas...  Gotham is no more...

	Robin <smiling, excited>: But Batman!  You reversed the
	polarity on the neutron bomb, causing it to destroy BUILDINGS
	and leave the PEOPLE unharmed!  Thanks to your TIMELY warning
	to evacuate all buildings, NO ONE was killed!  You're a hero,
	Batman!  A SUPERHERO in the CLASSIC Setting!

	Batman: Yes, Robin, but... <pained look> such a tragic loss of
	architecture!

Um, Sea Wasp, you sure you aren't thinking of Saturday morning
CARTOONS?

[lots of pointless but entertaining flaming omitted, check the
original and all its predecessors for kilobytes of mindless redundancy
;) ]

>	Read your own line. YOU balanced it. If the GM balanced it,
>the credit is the GMs. Not the system.

Sea Wasp, you seem to realize that, ultimately, it is the GM that
matters, not the system.  (After all, good GMs will either work around
what they feel is a bad system, or alter it to suit their needs and
whims.)  So I won't bother addressing your arguments against GURPS.

[begin ObAdvocacy]
Even though you're wrong.
[end ObAdvocacy]

-- 
 R. Cliff Young --/\/-- Work: cliff@sfn.ORG | Fun: nukenin@access.digex.com
 Phone: (703)573-0913 (USA) | GEnie: R.YOUNG52 | AOL: Nukenin@aol.com
 Mail: 7374 Arlington Blvd., Falls Church, VA  USA  22042-1515     /QR:RFO:SID
 "I'll teach you to laugh and to cry // They're really the same you'll see..."
From: scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Price$$$...
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 11:28:49 +1300
Organization: Barbed Wire Cat Productions

taia_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Second Genyosha) writes:

>  Here in New Zealand we face an even worse dilemma. After shipping etc and
> due to a monoploy by one company, we pay an additional 50% on the US price at
> least and in some cases 100% though this is rare. I find it cheaper to order
> direct from the States and I have one place that gives a 20% discount and thi
> enough for second class postage:) So I end up paying the US price, but have t
> wait up to six months for it :( Everytime I've gone to the States I've spent
> hundred of dollars buying stuff, as I think it's so cheap!

Even worse, all the Games Workshop products arrive in NZ via 
America and Australia (in that order), so we only get what 
those two countries don't want.  It makes it cheaper to 
order directly from the UK.  You just have to put up with 
the fact that the figures themselves only show vague 
resemble to the photos and drawings in the *expensive* 
catelogues.

Robert Singers               | Nothing I say or do should be taken as
scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz | a reflection of any form of reality or
                             | consensual hallucination.
** It's not my spelling (much) that's faulty.  It's this keyboard! **
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven Elliott Barnes)
Subject: Re: The Random Roll Question :-)
Organization: Radio Free Arcadia
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:23:50 GMT


While I am a fierce advocate of point-based systems such as 
Hero and GURPS, there are certain advantages of rolling.  My 
complaints with games such as D&D are mainly: the class system
limites your flexibility, and that the dice schemes do not
insure adequate balance.

What I hate about point allocation is that if I want my
character to be handsome, which has little influence in
most games, then I have to remove points from somewhere
else.  Admittedly, most games I play in are combat-monster
fests.  Other people have pointed out that strength is
of lower value in high-tech campaigns, but what if my
scientist / magic user / or netrunner happens to be strong?
Why should he be less effective in his chosen career?

What I'm considering for my next campaign is the basic
scheme:  describe your character in general terms, and
I'll write up the character.

-steve

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:07:32 GMT

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:


>John, by the very nature of GURPS, there is no "background" per se, or standard
>theme in GURPS CP. Thus, because the GURPS CP Adventures book is not part of
>any particular theme or background, one can't judge GURPS based on the CP Adv.
>book. 
>Since SR's modules and supplements are all linked into one (semi)coherent 
>whole, one -can- use the SR modules to judge the way that Fasa has designed 
>their universe. 

Oh, this is rich. Because FASA has placed all it's adventures in one universe
you can judge them and say "Gee, they are all special ops." However, if GURPS
CP has a bunch of special ops *but* they don't have a specific world, you 
can't judge the gaming feel that GURPS CP is trying to convey? Yeah, right.

>As for cyberware, it's not real hard to modify point costs to fit your own 
>campaign, and (this is what I like about GURPS CP) there's no artificial
>"cyberpsychosis" or "essense loss" to restrict options. You can pack as much
>cyberware in as you've got the points to pay for it; -this- is closer to the
>CP literature than the other systems. 

Well, that's a game balance thing. Get rid of the "cyberpsychosis" and
"essence loss" and the other character types will be even less capable
when compared to the cyberboys. Same thing happens in GURPS by
charging points for it.

Axly
********************************************************************************
*   Axly      *  "Is Axly tough? Yes. Talented? Yes. Brave? Oh, certainly.     *
* Red Sword   *   He is also erratic, irresponsible, accident-prone, and a     *
*   Targa     *   constant threat to public safety. The trick is to keep him   *
*             *   pointed in the right direction. "                            *
*             *         -Niki                                                  *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy