HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmacvean@willamette.edu (Jennifer MacVean)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: OCA initiative...Reasons to worry?
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:16:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: willamet.C188Mw.Ey1
Followup-To: or.politics
Organization: Willamette University, Salem OR

In article <1jiv91INN25m@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> eggertc@ucs.orst.edu 
(Christopher Eggert) writes:
>I've been watching the debate over the new OCA initiatives, and I just have a
>couple of questions:
>
>1) Is there any "scientific" way to tell what sexual orientation a person has,
>   like there are ways to tell a person's race or sex?

I didn't know there was a "scientific" way to tell what a person's race was.
My, that Norwegian person over there with slanted small eyes looks like
they have Japanese blood to me, and that Australian Aborigini with flaring
nostrils looks mighty African to me, when I don't know...
It's maybe as scientific as who that person is attracted to...when you ask
them...which is generally rude unless you know them really well.

>2) If not, then what are the conservatives worried about?  If anyone could
>   claim homosexuality but there's no way to prove it, there would be a lot
>   of problems getting "special rights" or "minority status" for them.

Good point, except that one could say an employer couldn't fire on the
basis of suspicion, or harass on the basis of suspicion, or bash on the
basis of suspicion of homosexuality.  The only protection is against
a perpetrator's "excuse" that the victim was a "fag."

>Just my $0.02 worth, and DO NOT send me any e-mail about this, no matter how
>irate you might be about my questions.

I didn't, and thanks for you two cents.  That's what makes America go round.

>eggertc@ucs.orst.edu

jmacvean@willamette.edu		

-- 
{ J. Lynne Mac Vean  } { Telnet: jmacvean@willamette.edu }     ____
{ whyte tyger / poet } { Snailmail: 900 State St. - G254 }     \ _/__
{ Standard Disclaimer: Willamette University has no idea }      \\  /
{ what I say, nor less does it agree, or care.           }        \/
Newsgroups: or.politics
From: robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed)
Subject: Re: educational system (was: Re: new initiative)
Reply-To: robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed)
Organization: Home Animation Ltd.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:52:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.230305.6532@fasttech.com> zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:
|In <C17CCL.HwB@slipknot.rain.com> robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
|
|>Our society has gotten too complex for the educational system to stop after
|>teaching "the three Rs."  It certainly should do a good job in teaching these
|>basics, but it needs to do much more to prepare children to deal with the
|>problems they may expect to face in their lifetimes.
|
|First, fix the school system so that it DOES teach the three Rs. Then, and
|only then, talk to us about everything else you want the school system,
|instead of parents, to do.

You'll get no argument from me about insisting on the basics where they are not
adequately covered.  But that does NOT discount my point that in modern times,
providing that is just not enough.

|>Inner city youth suffer primarily from living on the small
|>end of the economic system, where it is easy to see how rage, despair and
|>criminality can fester.
|
|This is pure liberal bullshit. It's completely wrong.
|
|I grew up as lower-middle-class in the 60's in New York. All around me were
|kids much poorer than me, most of whom did NOT have any "rage, despair, or
|criminality".
|
|My parents and these other parents were very hard working. Many managed
|to move their families out of the city and achieve a better life for
|themselves and their children. Even those parents that couldn't move made
|sure their kids got an education that would let them lead a better life.

Your experience does not contradict my statements.  You had the good fortune of
having a strong family, and I agree with your assessment of a family based
support system as key to surviving that environment.  But not all families are
so fortunate, and I am no more pleased than you with an insane welfare system
that tends to pull families apart rather than hold them together.  

Still, none of this runs counter to my statements about the role of schools and
families in preparing youth to participate in society.  And this has drifted a
long way from the original topic, which regarded the new OCA initiative.
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert Reed			Home Animation Ltd.		503-656-8414
robert@slipknot.rain.com	5686 First Court, West Linn, OR 97068

I've been put on jury duty for a rather insane case.  6000 ants dressed up
as rice had robbed a chinese grocery.  I don't think they did it.  I know
a few of them and they wouldn't do anything like that
--Steve Wright
________________________________________________________________________________
From: downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: educational system (was: Re: new initiative)
Date: 22 Jan 93 11:08:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1jokjsINNgi6
Organization: spherical domain of death and darkness
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <C17CCL.HwB@slipknot.rain.com>,
	robert@slipknot.rain.com.UUCP (Robert Reed) writes:
>It's very simple.  Prejudicial treatment stems mostly from fear, and fear from
>ignorance.  Eliminate the ignorance by revealing cultural accomplishments and
>history, and you can simultaneously build self-confidence and trust between the
>categories of people you define.  It's a lot easier to be nonjudgemental about
>someone you trust.  It's a lot harder to be prejudiced against someone you know
>and understand.

the same thing would accomplished, and manage to cause many more "good"
things to happen, if different ethnic cultures were _not_ focused upon. rather,
american culture should be taught. that, far more generalized, background
would not point out the differences between races, but rather how all races
have contributed a single culture within this country... and that would in
the end make the subjects of such education feel much more equal - they'd
be americans, not jewish-americans, not african-americans, not whatever.

the country, and in turn, the society within the coutry would be become
stronger, not increasingly fragmented.

-- 
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
 \           - jason downs -           /\   - downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU -  /
 / zeppelin/amiga release 2/insane guy \/ led/vasudeva/lord of fear of death \
/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: educational system (was: Re: new initiative)
Date: 22 Jan 93 00:49:36 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1993Jan21.230305.6532@fasttech.com> zeke@fasttech.com (Bohdan Tashchuk) writes:
>In <C17CCL.HwB@slipknot.rain.com> robert@slipknot.rain.com (Robert Reed) writes:
>
>>Our society has gotten too complex for the educational system to stop after
>>teaching "the three Rs."  It certainly should do a good job in teaching these
>>basics, but it needs to do much more to prepare children to deal with the
>>problems they may expect to face in their lifetimes.
>
>First, fix the school system so that it DOES teach the three Rs. Then, and
>only then, talk to us about everything else you want the school system,
>instead of parents, to do.

  Well now you've got my ire up, too.  

  It ain't the schools that aren't teaching the three R's, bub.  It's
  lazy, unmotivated children with equally lazy, unmotivated parents
  setting a lazy, unmotivated example.

  My wife has been an educator in this state for seven years now,
  both in the private and public sector.  I was amazed at the lack
  of parental involvement and concern for students.  One of the
  single most common complaints coming from parents was that Johnny
  was stuck with too much homework every night.  Evidentally,
  Johnny is much more capable of setting an appropriate work load,
  even though he's only in the fourth grade.

  Seems to me that many of us got a pretty good education when we
  were growing up, and everyone was making the same damn complaints
  then as they are now.  You're such a champion of personal
  integrity and motivation I'm surprised you've forgotten that
  you only get as much out of an education as you put into it.  And
  many kids aren't putting squat into theirs.  How the hell
  is a teacher supposed to compete for attention with Super Mario
  Brothers?  What's a teacher supposed to do when mom and pop come
  banging on the door of the principal accusing the teacher of being
  too hard on the students academically?  

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
From: jmacvean@willamette.edu (Jennifer MacVean)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: new initiative
Date: 24 Jan 93 19:16:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: willamet.C1DHJJ.DCt
Organization: Willamette University, Salem OR

In article <1jojerINNfsp@leela.CS.ORST.EDU> downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU 
(jason downs) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.051232.4426@qiclab.scn.rain.com>,
>	Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>>Your religion analogy has a problem in that it *assumes* that sexual
>>orientation is a choice. 
>
>actually, it doesn't matter if it's a choice, or not. homosexuality is
>a type of _behaviour_, and cannot be treated as the basis for a minority
>class because of that fact.

I beg to differ.  Homosexuality is not "behavior," it is more of a
personality trait...whether or not it's genetic, environmentally
caused, from lead poisoning...no one has yet agreed (scientifically)
how it is caused.  In any case, "homosexual sex" is a behavior, 
a "homosexual" is a person (noun), and "homosexuality" reflects
a personality trait.  It happens quite often that a homosexual is
celibate for a length of time...or a bisexual finds members of the
same sex attractive but is not able to find someone to date.  Have 
they ceased to be homosexual and bisexual, temporarily, even though
they still find members of the same sex equally attractive, yet 
difficult to meet with the knowledge that attraction will not be
repulsed or reacted violently to?  Please do respond.

On the other hand, I agreed with what you said about teaching against
racism: 

>why, yes it is wrong to teach that black kids, specifically, are just as
>good as anyone else. it should be taught that everyone is equal, without
>using african-americans (or anyone else) as an example.
>\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
> \           - jason downs -           /\   - downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU -  /
> / zeppelin/amiga release 2/insane guy \/ led/vasudeva/lord of fear of death \
>/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\

Lynne MacVean.

-- 
{ J. Lynne Mac Vean  } { Telnet: jmacvean@willamette.edu }     ____
{ whyte tyger / poet } { Snailmail: 900 State St. - G254 }     \ _/__
{ Standard Disclaimer: Willamette University has no idea }      \\  /
{ what I say, nor less does it agree, or care.           }        \/
Newsgroups: or.politics
From: stever@crosstalk.tv.tek.com (Steven E. Rice  P.E.)
Subject: Re: educational system (was: Re: new initiative)
Organization: Tektronix TV Products
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 06:25:00 GMT

In a series of previous articles (see the "References:" line), Robert
Reed, Bohdan Tashchuk, and Robert Beauchaine debated the current state
and future direction of the public education system.

Robert Reed wrote that "[o]ur society has gotten too complex for the
educational system to stop after teaching 'the three Rs.'"  Bohdan
wanted the system fixed so it actually teaches the three Rs.  And
Robert Beauchaine was bent out of shape by the implication that the
schools were completely responsible.

Robert Reed is correct that we have to go beyond the three Rs.  But it
isn't clear that the primary and secondary schools are the place for
greatly advanced education.

My father once worked for a man who had dropped out of school after the
third grade.  Eddy O'Connell was a self-made man, and a millionaire.
But it is far less likely that he could be as successful today as he
was when he went to work in the early 1900s at the ripe old age of nine.

In the mid-1800s, eight years of school was unattainable for many.
Even at the turn of the century, eight years of education was considered
adequate preparation for most jobs.  By the 1960s, a high school diploma
became very important.  It may be that a year or two beyond high school
will become the minimum before long.

Bohdan has reason for concern, though not all public schools are equally
broken.  If you want to give your children the best possible chance,
consider private school.  We pay about $2,000 per year per child.  This
is the reason I drive a 1977 Plymouth Fury with 150,000 miles on it.  (If
you are really flush, there are always Catlin Gabel and Oregon Episcopal
School, both near $10,000 per child per year. . .)

Even if you can't afford private school, you can do much to help your
children.  Read to them from an early age.  Keep the TV set off and
play games with them.  Work puzzles with them.  Talk to them.  Answer
their questions.

When they get into school, keep in close contact with their teachers.
Attend parent-teacher conferences.  Help your children with their
homework.  Praise their successes.  Be involved.

Robert Beauchaine has reason to be upset about lazy, unmotivated
children and parents who complain about too much homework being assigned.
But none of us can control those parents.  Our job as parents is to
ensure that our children get the education they need, no matter how much
effort we have to expend.

					Steve Rice

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! *
stever@tv.tv.Tek.com                                   [phone (503) 627-1320]
From: downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: new initiative
Date: 23 Jan 93 07:42:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1jqsshINNmit
Organization: spherical domain of death and darkness
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <1993Jan22.163904.10387@hpcvca.cv.hp.com>,
	scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>Then, why don't I see you heavily lobbying to get religion removed from
>being a "protected" class?  It is surely a choice, and definitely a
>behavior.

sounds like a fine idea to me. i'd just rather spend my time arguing over
more important issues.

-- 
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
 \           - jason downs -           /\   - downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU -  /
 / zeppelin/amiga release 2/insane guy \/ led/vasudeva/lord of fear of death \
/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: new initiative
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:39:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvca.1993Jan22.163904.10387
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
: 
: actually, it doesn't matter if it's a choice, or not. homosexuality is
: a type of _behaviour_, and cannot be treated as the basis for a minority
: class because of that fact.

Then, why don't I see you heavily lobbying to get religion removed from
being a "protected" class?  It is surely a choice, and definitely a
behavior.

--

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: new initiative
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:44:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvca.1993Jan25.194456.16450
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
: 
: sounds like a fine idea to me. i'd just rather spend my time arguing over
: more important issues.

Like putting down homosexuals and supporting an anti-homosexual agenda, eh?

Measure 9 and amendment 2 in colorado had absolutely *nothing* to do with
removing or preventing special rights; they were and are *anti-homosexual*
changes to the constitutions.

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: or.politics
From: bud@kentrox.uucp (Bud Couch)
Subject: Congressional E-mail
Organization: ADC Kentrox, Portland OR
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 01:03:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan13.183829.1865@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>
>It'd be great to have this stuff online, especially the ability to 
>email to congresspeople, legislators, etc., but we *ALL* know that
>they'd not answer us directly just as they do in public.  Still,
>it'd be great to fire off question after question after question
>over email and grill 'em!  Seriously though, it would be good,
>although I don't see it happening.
>
>allen

Just read over in comp.dcom.telecom that they are planning an Internet connection
to the US House of Represtatives. The Senate is not included. No real details were
available, but it seems that a member would have to "sign up" to get an address.

If your rep does, you *can* inundate him with e-mail (although it would still be some
staff schmuck calling up the right form letter to zip right back to you).
-- 
  Bud Couch - ADC/Kentrox    | That which does not kill me makes me strong.  |
 If my employer only knew... |                              -Nietzsche       |
   standard BS applies	     | ... but why risk it?  - me                    |
From: dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: He's back in town...
Date: 28 Jan 1993 11:06 PST
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: or
NNTP-Posting-Host: oregon.uoregon.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <4282@master.CNA.TEK.COM>, mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM writes...
>Thing is, what good is he? If he can't show his face
>in public without getting hooted off the podium!
> 
>Pack it in, Bob.

OK.  Who wants to really piss Packwood off?  Send him gold coins.  (Or even
Gold Coin condoms, to add insult to injury.)

Explanation available to anyone who doesn't get the joke.  Just request it by
e-mail to keep the board clear, please.

							Dan, ad nauseum
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: new initiative
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:46:46 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1993Jan22.163904.10387@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>
>Then, why don't I see you heavily lobbying to get religion removed from
>being a "protected" class?  It is surely a choice, and definitely a
>behavior.
>

  I've wondered why I don't see this argument more often.  It's
  short, succinct, accurate, and so blatantly obvious.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
doing something wrong?"
			James Nicoll

Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
From: stever@crosstalk.tv.tek.com (Steven E. Rice  P.E.)
Subject: Sex education (was "Re: new initiative")
Organization: Tektronix TV Products
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:52:24 GMT

In article <C15uE4.84B@agora.rain.com>, Alan Batie (batie@agora.rain.com)
responded to a comment by Jason Downs:

> downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
>> public schools shouldn't be involved in sex at all, it simply
>> attributes to more teens having sex, and thus more teenage
>> pregnancies
> 
> sex education in school is in *response* to teenage pregnancies,
> not the other way around...

Both Jason and Alan are right. . .

Sex education in the public schools is an attempt to reduce the high
incidence of teenage pregnancy.  Unfortunately, sex education as taught
in most school districts has the unintentional side-effect of
encouraging teens to have sex, thereby increasing the pregnancy rate.

You don't believe it, you say?  Why would you argue with the Alan
Guttmacher Institute, a research organization affiliated with Planned
Parenthood?

I forsee a very difficult period ahead for the United States.  Sex
education (at least as currently practiced) is a failure.  Condoms are
inadequate protection against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), AIDS
included.  Nor is AIDS the only deadly STD.  Last year alone, 6,000
women died of cervical cancer caused by human papiloma virus (HPV),
another STD.

Ultimately, though (perhaps over two or three generations), the message
will get through that promiscuity means death.  Those who model
faithfulness for their children, teach them to avoid sexual encounters
before marriage, and impress upon them the importance of remaining
completely faithful after marriage will live to see their grandchildren
grow up.  Those who are promiscuous will have neither long life nor
grandchildren.

					Steve Rice

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! *
stever@tv.tv.Tek.com                                   [phone (503) 627-1320]
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Newsgroups: or.politics
Subject: Re: educational system (was: Re: new initiative)
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:48:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvca.1993Jan25.194824.16578
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
: i've found the intense hatred for the religious right by the liberal sector
: to be quite interesting. and how they always assume that if someone believes
: in ultra-conservative politics, that someone must be some kind of christian
: fundamentalist. and that if someone believes that homosexuality should not
: be a basis for minority status, that person must be heterosexual.
: 
: funny how i've not seen conservatives make those kinds of assumptions.

I have.  I stood with a "No on 9" sign (in Corvallis).  I got yelled at from
quite a few cars, calling me a "Homo", saying "Homosexuals out of Corvallis",
"fag", etc.

It was quite amusing to my wife who was standing next to me.


Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: or.politics