HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King)
Subject: Women, Choice and Change
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:50:25 GMT

___________________

  I think the debate in the "Re: Repression of Women"
thread has gotten onto a misleading topic, namely
the character of communal norms and individual
obligation vis a vis those norms.
  As I suggested in an earlier posting, the existence of
a moral consensus in a given community is uncontentious,
and I think most people would admit that such consensus
is part of what defines a community.
  However, what is critical to the oppression of women
issue is the degree of institutional rigidity in a given
country; how well does a government accomodate *changes*
in values?  Does it encourage communities to resist this
change?  Does it actively enforce the communal status-quo?
If so, then I'd say that there is structural oppression
of the group in question.
  When reading recent feminist writing out of Saudi Arabia,
Iran and Lebanon (just the two examples which I can speak on,
but I assume there are others), what strikes one is how
similar their status at home is with the status of writers
on the same issues in the former Soviet Union, and Communist
China.  In all three cases, rigid institutional impediments
prevented the proliferation of their ideas in their home
countries.
  My point, as I stated explicitly in an earlier posting, is
that unchanging dogma makes for lousy government, because it
stifles change.  This is the root of the problem which women
have faced throughout history, and it is the problem which faces
many Islamic communities today: how do we structure a community
based upon religious values, but which doesn't discriminate
against people who don't share, or are critical of, those values.
  My answer?  Don't interfere with others unless they directly (i.e.
structurally, physically, or by means of economic coercion)
interfere with you.  That is, let people say and believe (and wear!)
what they want, but don't force them to toe a party-line, so to speak.
And I don't consider "espousing different values" to be a legitimate 
claim of interference!
  This means keeping religion out of government and law.  This is
an issue -- and a possible solution -- which I think the governments
of both Iran and Saudi Arabia are going to have to consider very
seriously in the near future.


______________

Loren King
Department of Political Science
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: assist@unocss.unomaha.edu ( )
Subject: Re: Recipe for Reading News of Iran
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 01:44:12 GMT

hossein@nu.Berkeley.EDU (Karbalaie Hossein) writes:
>CASE 2. The source of the news is a MKO interview/publication or otherwise
>representing the view of MKO in a matter relating to Iran. Once again, ignore
>the heading. The difficulty with digesting MKO's news is due to two balanced
>factors. 1. The report is made after the event and in absence of the 
>reporter. 2. Reporter's close associates were present at the event. Considering
>these two factors has led us to the following conclusions.
>	A. If the news is directly related to MKO's activities in Iran
>	 the percentage of truth does not exceed 5%. However, which 5%
>	 cannot be determined at this time and further research is 
>	 required.
>	
>	B. News is about internals of the MKO organizatio. If it is bad news
>	 accept its negative points. If it is good news, use the 10 to 1 ratio
>	 developed for IRI.
>	
>	C. Otherwise, consider it gossip. 

Without taking sides, here is a number of observations I
have made:

News releases from the Mojahedin about Iran has normally been
immediately confirmed/reported by the international media. Consider
for example the speedy news reports of the Mojahedin about the
protests and demonstrations in Arak, Shiraz, Mashhad, etc. They
were immediately reported in the world media. The Mojahedin's
report of mass arrests and executions were also re-echoed.
Or for example, consider the Mojahedin's first hand news about
the regime's nuclear projects, huge arms purchases, or widespread
repression of women in Iran in recent weeks. These news items were
then reflected in the world press and credits were given to the
Mojahedin.

In addition to the above, the international press as well as
bodies such as the AI, various UN Commissions, the European
Parliament, etc., quite often cite the Mojahedin's news reports.
This implies the accuracy and the reliability of the Moajhedin

And finally, to the best of my knowledge, no news item of the
Mojahedin has been shown to be false. Of course, due to
unprecedented level of repression in Iran, and lack of any
means to investigate the situation, it is difficult to prove
and/or disprove certain estimates given by the Mojahedin.
However, the Mojahedin normally use scientific statistical
methods (as well as all existing facts) for all their estimates.

And here is a challenge for you: next time you see a news item
of the Mojahedin which you can show to be incorrect, why don't
you post it.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: amoojoon@ghahveh.khooneh.mash.yadollAh (Bacheh Morshed)
Subject: rAst-o chap
Summary: why is rAst better?
Keywords: chapi, chapool,...
Organization: naghAl khooneh
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:33:19 GMT


SalAmeh garmeh amoo bar ahAliyeh SCI,

When amoo was younger things were much simpler than what they appear to be 
now. "Dasteh rAst" had only one meaning and nobody asked/cared whether or not
it was fair to prefer a right-handed person over a left-handed one. 
Amazingly enough it is a universal phenomenon, the preference for "right" 
that is. As far as I remember everything at school was designed for right-
handed people; there was no folding table attached to the left side of 
chairs, etc. 

Our vocabulary, literature, and even Islamic view also seem to 
have a preference for "right" vs. "left". Poor left hand is always assigned 
the dirtiest jobs! If there is something wrong with the eyes you become "
chapool" (never "rAstool"), and if you use your eyes to look in a certain 
way you're looking "chap chap" at someone.If you want to be honest you've 
got to say "rAst", and if you have an awful accident it is more likely to 
be "chap kardan".When situations become confusing we call it 
"chap andar gheychi". If you want to pretend you don't know something there 
is no better alley than "koocheye ali-chap", and if you're in a bad mood 
you've definitely gotten up from "dandeh chap".So amoo suddenly realized 
that there is a huge difference between the way we view everything according 
to "rAst" or "chap". It should be obvious by now why the opposition to any 
government is always labeled as "chapi"!

Well, I better go now "tA morshed bAhAm chap nayoftAdeh"!


ambidextrous bAsheed,


amoo
From: abbasa@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: repression...
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:57:14 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

In article <1992Sep13.201843.16934@sei.cmu.edu>, psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) writes:
> 12-Sep-92 19:31	abbasa@ul.ie	Re: repression of women
> 
>>Iranian women has already decided what is good for them by overwhelmingly
>>voting in favour the present islamic constitution of Iran.  I would
>>like every democratic-minded person to respect their will.
> 
> As reported in "Time" the early elections held for Imam Khomeini were
> conducted with members of the revolutionary guards at the polling stations and
> used green colored ballots for Khomeini and red ones for those who wanted to
> vote against.  To call this a "democratic" election is a joke.n

How are so sure what Times is reporting is true word by word??  It could be
a part of propaganda war launched by the jewish controlled media. Please
give us reference to a neutral source if you could. 

BTW, how come Times discoverd after 12 yeras that early elections were rigged?



>>Sir, may be you did not follow the whole thread of discussion.  The author of
>>the original article had argued that chador was imposed on women in Iran to
>>hide her from Iranian men who are very sexually aggressive towards women. 
>>I was just citing an example to make it clear that although many priests have 
>>been found involved in sex-related scandals but it does not imply that nuns 
>>cover their body because of that reason.  Similarly it is nonsense to say that
>>nature of men in Iran has some thing to do with veiling. 
> 
> I don't know whether you are being clever or not, but this is not at all what
> I was implying.  If I had implied what you are saying I said, then that would
> be a racist remark. Instead what I was saying is that all men (basically I
> believe) are typically very sexual creatures and that veils don't seem like a
> bad idea except that they ignore women's choices (a big sin in my view)
> entirely.  Also, I said that I felt that Iranian culture so stifles sexuality
> of any kind that the truly reprehensible behaviors that had been reported to
> me by *some* American women of *some* young Iranian men were explainable from
> this paradigm and were illustrations of the reality of contempt for women that
> is apparently ingrained in some of these men.  That is, nobody should be
> treated with disrespect, period.  I wasn't trying to offend anyone although I
> probably have. 
> 
> I don't think American men are better at all.  But I definitely don't think
> taking away a woman's right to choose her clothing is the correct way to fight
> this terrible male disease of hypersexuality and disrespect.  And, if I read
> my Qur'an correctly, there is no requirement for women to cover themselves
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> from head-to-toe anyway.  

Ulema of all main islamic school of thoughts hundred percent agree that
veiling is made obligatory by ALLAH.  Please, check with Koran again.


regards,

Asad.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: eshghi@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Kave Eshghi)
Subject: Re: Women, Choice and Change
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:31:35 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories Palo Alto,CA

In a generally well written and thoughtful article, <1992Sep11.205025.26916@athena.mit.edu> lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King) writes:
>___________________
>
>  As I suggested in an earlier posting, the existence of
>a moral consensus in a given community is uncontentious,
>and I think most people would admit that such consensus
>is part of what defines a community.
>  However, what is critical to the oppression of women
>issue is the degree of institutional rigidity in a given
>country; how well does a government accomodate *changes*
>in values?  Does it encourage communities to resist this
>change?  Does it actively enforce the communal status-quo?
>If so, then I'd say that there is structural oppression
>of the group in question.

I take your point, but the central issue regarding the situation of women
in Iran today (in particular the dress code) is that the values that
the government and its supporters want to impose on women are _not_ the
communal norms, or values generally held by the majority of the people.
Prior to the advent of the Islamic
Republic, women (specially in Tehran and big cities) commonly wore modest
western style dress. Those who lived in Iran in those days (as I did)
remember their mothers, school teachers, etc. in shirts, skirts and uncovered
hair. I repeat, this was absolutely common and uncotroversial, except maybe
in some very religious small towns, such as Qom. The current regime is
imposing, using brutal and repressive methods, its own values (which are
those of the Shi'ite clergy) on the majority of Iranian women. Thus you
see bank clerks, teachers, and receptionist being forced to wear headscarves
and long heavy coats in the middle of the summer, something which
they would never do voluntarily. And I am not talking about a small minority
of women who are forced to do this: in large cities,
especially Tehran, this applies to the majority of women.

The issue with regards to the dress code for women in Iran is different from
that in Saudi Arabia: in Saudi, women have always been behind the veil, and
this can be considered the cultural norm (although, 
in my opinon, this does not make it
any the less reprehensible). In Iran, it is the attempt by a minority in power,
namely the religious clergy, to impose, by force, their ideology and dogma
down to the details of dress and personal coduct, on an unwilling population.

So the real question with respect to women's dress in Iran is: does the
government have the right to impose its ideological standards on the majority
of people, mostly against their will? In my opinion, it doesn't.

Mash Bagher
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: payman@hardy.u.washington.edu (Payman Arabshahi)
Subject: Re: Persian Carpets
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:25:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.123234@trc.amoco.com> 
zars10@trc.amoco.com (Andrew R. Slagle) writes:

>Could someone recommend a good book on the subject?
>
>thanks
>Andy Slagle

Two good books, (one of them is in Persian):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AU   Hillmann, Michael C.
MT   Persian carpets.
PI   Austin : University of Texas Press, 1984.
PD   x, 98 p. : ill. (some col.)  ; 29 cm.
ED   1st ed.
NT   Includes index.  Bibliography: p. [83]-91.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AU   Sur-e Esrafil, Shirin.
MT   KetAb-e Farsh-e IrAn : sayri dar marAhel-e takmili-e farsh, tarrAhi,
     rangrazi, rufu.
PI   TehrAn : FarhangsarA, 1367 [1988 or 1989]
PD   279 p. : ill. (some col.)  ; 30 cm.
ED   2nd. ed.
NT   Title on p. [4] of cover: A survey of Persian carpets: the art of carpet
     making.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Payman

~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~




Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: farhad@Tehran.Stanford.EDU (Farhad Shakeri)
Subject: Re: Munafeghin
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University, CA   USA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:50:09 GMT

In article <19556.2ab52ab2@ul.ie> abbasa@ul.ie writes:
>May Allah protect the islamic revolution.
>

Please do not insult Allah's wisdom on the net.

-- 
         +----------------------------------------------------+
        /   Farhad  Shakeri         E-Mail:                  /
       /  Stanford   University     farhad@CS.Stanford.EDU  /
      / Computer Science Department (415) 7 2 3 - 0 0 0 9  /
     +----------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: amoojoon@ghahveh.khooneh.mash.yadollAh (Bacheh Morshed)
Subject: Grand re-opening!
Summary: we're open again
Keywords: Ghahveh Khooneh
Organization: naghAl khooneh
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:44:10 GMT


                            
                              ahAliyeh mohtaram


         Ghahveh khooneh mash Yadollah under the same old management is 
         once again open to the public. Since four weeks ago when the 
         nightly "ma'rekeh" was on a tour accross the nation the ghahveh 
         khooneh had been closed. Now that Morshed and amoo are back we are 
         ready to serve the ahAli with quality food for body and thought. 
         Please stop by and give "ronagh" to our "mahfel".

         on behalf of the management,

         Bacheh Morshed

Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: zamie@zamiepcSanDiego.NCR.com (Zamie Mehraz)
Subject: Re: Bank Milli ranked 46 in the world?
Reply-To: zamie@zamiepcSanDiego.NCR.com (Zamie Mehraz)
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing, San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:41:09 GMT


"Fortune" magazine listed the world's 500 largest service corporations
around the world lately.  Bank Milli was ranked as the 46th largest
commercial banking company in the world.  Bank Melli was shown with
assests totalling $130.1 billion and reported profits of $30 million
(where this was the 7th worst of the 100 banks rated by Fortune magazine.
From: paran_p@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pirouz Parang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: Iranian flag
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:06:00 GMT
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

In article <Bu9qzC.330@news.cso.uiuc.edu> yaser@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Ala) writes:
>8809787l@levels.unisa.edu.au writes:
>
>>Salam Doostan
>
>>I would like to know if any one out there knows the significants of the colors
>>on the IRANIAN flag ( ie. green, white and red ).
>
>>Thank you
>
>I vaguely remember something from school years
>Green for AABAADI (more trees and agriculture)
>White for SOLH (peace and tranquility) 
>Red   for Khoon (blood of martyrs killed for their country)
>
>I think these three things have always been in the minds of our people.
>
>Iran has for most parts dry climate.  Water resources exists but has to
>be discovered and managed.  Therefore, people think that more AABAADI is
>within reach by applying technology (for example Qanaat) to turn the
>Khaki landscape to a greener one.
>
>Stability and tranquility has always been the dream of Iranians.  Being
>invaded by so many different powers and nomadic tribes people laways
>looked for periods of peace.  In fact Iran has shown tremendous developments
>in the peace periods.  Unfortunately we have not seen this for quite sometimes.
>
>Iran has survived only because of the sacrifice of the people who offered
>their lives in the defense of the land and the culture.  People of Iran
>have always appreciated this fact and  have considered a special status
>for our martyrs.
>
>Green, white, red can stand for reconstruction, peace, independence.
>
>Of course there may be other meanings of the colors,
>it would be interesting to hear some more.
>
>>Yours faithfully
>>Peyam Pourbeik
>
>Ala

	I agree with you on the meaning of white and red but I think the 
green stripe stands for Islam.

Pirouz
Xref: sparky soc.culture.iranian:7773 soc.culture.arabic:3564 soc.rights.human:3318
From: farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Repression of women has been escalated in Iran
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:34:56 GMT
Organization: none

In article <1992Sep7.153907.1781@cco.caltech.edu> bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) writes:

 #Reply to anonymous posting:
 #
 #1.  A netter recently claimed that 400 women were arrested AND
 #    LASHED in a space of 2 days!
 #
 #2.  Last summer, Western media falsely misquoted a top Iranian
 #    judicial as having said that the punishment for indecent
 #    clothing is execution!!!   The official vehemently denied
 #    this fabrication.  Needless to say, the Western media completely
 #    ignored his denial.
 #
 #3.  Diane Sawyer of 60 minutes falsely claimed that Iranian women
 #    don't have property rights!!!!  She also falsely misquoted 
 #    Pres. Rafsanjani as having said that women have smaller brains
 #    and smaller hearts than men and so men should rule over women.  
 #    I referred to the original text of his speech and, of course,
 #    there was no such thing in it.
 #
 #4.  Mr. Mohatashemi was falsely misquoted by the Western media
 #    as having said that all political prisoners were executed!
 #    Of course, all international human rights organizations deny
 #    this.  Once again, Mr. Mohtashemi's vehement denials of this
 #    fabrication and slander against him were completely ignored
 #    in the Western media.

Interesting. Do you know, Behnam, if the western media pay the
same amount of attention to women's clothing in, say,
Saudi Arabia?  
  
 - Farzin
              
Xref: sparky soc.culture.iranian:7965 soc.culture.arabic:3671 soc.rights.human:3481
From: mulvihil@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Lawrence Mulvihill)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Repression of women has been escalated in Iran
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:00:16 GMT
Reply-To: mulvihil@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Lawrence Mulvihill)
Followup-To: soc.culture.iranian
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

I read that men wearing neckties were pulled from their
cars, also.

-- 
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
                    \ They discovered, one black Saturday,
       LAIR         / The mobs don't march, they run.
                    \			   - The Clash
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: bes@cco.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.arabic,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Repression of women has been escalated in Iran
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:21:31 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

In article <1992Sep8.140238.1473@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> mackenzi@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Paul Mackenzie) writes:


>Arrested or not, they are STILL being harassed for being individuals.

I don't think enforcing modest dress is harrassing people for being
individuals.   Do you also consider the following to be harrassing 
people for being individuals:

1.  Requiring people to pay taxes even though they may have moral
objections to the way it's spent.  

2.  The anti-nudity laws in the U.S.

3.  Making it unlawful for individuals to own tanks or nuclear weapons!

4.  Prohibiting jay-walking!

5.  Making polygamy illegal.

6.  The US laws that ban the use of certain obscene words in
    public broadcasts.

Etc.

You see, you may not agree with the majority's viewpoint.  But
you have to acknowledge the majority's right to enforce laws that
certain individuals may not like.  This can't be labeled opposing
individuality.  A better label is "common sense."

Jefferson said, "The law of the majority is the natural law of every
society of men."  While I would not go to the extreme of  calling
it "the natural law,"  I do agree that, within certain bounds, the
majority has the right to enforce its own laws.

>Public opinion is no excuse for ignoring individual rights.  

See above comments.

>...Those people
>who are strong in their faith should be content that they are doing what
>they think is right, and leave others alone.

If a state were to operate by this principle, then what we would have
is total anarchy.  That's why no society has ever embraced this view.

>...
>
>Paul

Behnam Sadeghi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
From: mtaghavi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Amir Taghavi)
Subject: Re: Is Iran/Iranians terrorist ?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:00:18 GMT

In article <Bu8A9x.F7x@acsu.buffalo.edu> sepehr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Ramin S.) writes:
>
>Why is it that everytime the name Iran comes up the word terrorist follows
>it? I know that Iranians are very calm people and not like some nations are
>bloodthurst. 
>
>Well we should thank our "dearest" government for leading the terrorism 
>in the world, so wherever we go we are known as terrorists.
>
>I heard that the crulest and best terrorists come from Germany, where
>Labanees are second best. But we are better known to the world than others.
>So , thank you mr. Ayatollah and mr. Rafsinjani and all others who
>contribute to this successful achievment of title " Terrorist ".
>
>Ramin S.
>  
>*****************************************************************************

 
Ramin;

I see you are a victim of Western media. Western media pretend there is an
ultimate Freedom here in U.S. of A. but don't let that fool you either. I 
don't buy a thing they say about themselves and Iranians. So don't let the
Westerners confuse you by calling you a 'terrorist'.

It is just the way they(NOT ALL, but some) think. Have a fate in yourself.


Best wishes
Amir



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