HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:51:54 GMT

James Meritt writes:
#Out of curiosity, do you think there was a gun mounted on top of the
#bomb with wheels that took out the barracks in Beruit?

Does this matter? Or do you just think it is better to kill innocent
civilians rather than having volenteer soldiers risk being killed? The
soldiers accepted the risk of being shot. When did the Somalies
travelling on a bus accept this risk?




--
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
 USPS Mail:     Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
 Internet:      gsh7w@virginia.edu  
 UUCP:		...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: The collapse of communism and the role of the U.S.
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:55:33 GMT

In <1992Dec16.022405.11219@Princeton.EDU> pswanson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Paul Swanson) writes:

>In article <1992Dec14.145234.12980@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>[most of discussion deleted]
>>
>>No, you seem to be missing the gist of my opinion, which is that what
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^
>>we would have gotten would NOT have been a Soviet collapse, and
>>certainly not this early.  What we would have got is a somewhat more
>>benign (but only somewhat) Soviet Empire which would have been much
>>more robust than what we've seen and which would be hurting us
>>severely in international affairs (since most third-party countries
>>will throw their support with where the strength is.   See any good
>>book on geo-politics under 'Finlandization'.
>>
>This point pretty much sums up the discussion.  Since we can't go back
>and change history we'll never know what the results of a different
>course of action would have been starting after Stalin died.  Its really
>a matter of opinion and if its Fred McCall's opinion versus George
>Kennan's opinion I don't think there is any doubt whose carries more
>weight.  This is why I presented Mr. Kennan's opinion since my own
>personal opinion is probably worth less than Fred's.

Well, first, let me say that I'm not sure that I buy either one of
those positions (that Mr. Kennan's opinion is better than mine or that
mine is better than yours).  Personally, I find that Mr. Kennan does
not logically connect up his premises with his conclusions, given what
I know about events.  Oh, of course everyone who has set policy since
WWII has some 'responsibility' for the eventual collapse, but in
recent history actions suggested by the more liberal of the political
spectrum would have put that collapse off.  As would Mr. Kennan's
suggestions (if I am reading the article correctly) for how we should
have acted.  We would, under his suggestions, have gotten a more
benevolent Soviet Union over the short term, but it would have taken
much longer to fail (if it did).

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.Hongkong,talk.politics.china
From: dh5m@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Donghai  Huangfu)
Subject: Re: outline of a fantacy novel (Re: DATA: largest world economies)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:06:13 GMT


Time 2050.

After 1.5 year of bloody conflict, in the first direct election of Taiwan
supervised under UN, the Liberal Democratic Prograssive Party (LDPP) beat  
down KMT, and the Reunion Party (Chinese running dog, CRD).

The media of whole world transmit the independent celebration, the new 
President Chen Heng-sin declares foundation of ROT in TaiZhong (Taibei 
becomes the ruins because of the battles). National day is set up to
be Dec. 25. Christianty is advocated to be national religion.

President Chen failed to get support in the Congress for the Bill of
Taking over Private Arms. The physical battles in Congress between
LDPP and KMT becomes more serious, and it hurts the reputation of the
new country.

CRD goes into undergroud, declaring armed struggle. This is a big headache
of President Chen.

Under the press of president of USA, Marian George, the General Secretary
of CCP, Jiang Xiaoming makes a promiss to give diplomatic recognition
to ROT, but raises a demand compensation of $300 billion for the China
property transfered from China mainland to Taiwan 100 years ago by KMT.
This unacceptable demand is supported by Vatican and Hague World Court.

The young country has many problems, but all problems will be settled
by time. A lovely country are building on the ruins. The future is bright.
From: yhe1@cc.swarthmore.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Hongkong
Date: 19 Dec 92 02:41:12 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College



So far I haven't found anything concerning the controversy about the
pro-democracy reform in HongKong suggested by Patten.  It is well worth
discussing and I personally hold that what Patten has been trying to do is
no different from what Britain had done to China when it took away HongKong
from China.  It is no longer a matter of democracy, rather, it's like
"political imperilism".
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yawei@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (~{QG9p~})
Subject: Re: D & P fighters
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:25:00 GMT

In article <~~{5K~~}.92Dec10194636@owl.bunny.rhic.bnl.gov> ~~{5K~~}@bunny.rhic.bnl.gov (~~{5K6,F=~~}) writes:

>D-fighters: fight FOR democracy, whatever that is in their minds.
>P-fighters: fight AGAINST patriotism, whatever that is in their minds. 
                   ^^^^^^^

Hmmm, I thought "P-fighters" stands for "Patriotic fighters",
which would probably fight FOR patriotism. :-)



Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Ignatius Ding <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Too Late To Write?  Never!
Reply-To: Ignatius Ding <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:43:47 GMT

Dear friends,


The attached message is one of many replies and/or comments I have received in
the last few days.  The response to the call for support is extremely well.  It
tells us that anything can be done if the will is there.  Now, comes to the
reality that the time is short.  Some of you might not have 'nouf time left
to send a Christmas card or two.  Don't worry about the timing.  The point is
to go with the tidal wave of this campaign.  Keep sending letters and greeting
cards for the Chinese New Year, as Janet suggested below, or for the Lunar
calendar January 15 (Song Yuan Jie).  As Morey said in his message, the more
letters the merrier...

"WRITE ON!!" Morey also said.  For those who do not know Morey, let me introduce
him in thirty seconds.  He is an individual of many talents and energy.  We have
to wait for other occasion to formally introduce him and the movement he has
been associated with.  In a nutshell, Morey is, let me proudly say, a member of
SVDC and the former president of the Soviet Jewish Movement, an organization
based in Sunnyvale,CA with more than 100,000 members worldwide.  They has been
in operation for nearly thirty year now.  Started by a Jewish-American returning
from a visit to the Soviet Union.  It began with a membership of about twenty-
five people.  The rest of the story of Morey's leadership and the incredible
work his organization did has been known by many - they lobbied both the U.S.
government/Congress and the Soviet Government/Congress resulting in the releases
of many many prisoners of conscience and the migration of more than 100,000
Soviet Jews to Israel, the United States, and many European countries.

One of SVDC's unwritten goals is to become as successful as the Soviet Jewish
Movement one day.  I believe that all SVDC members on or off this net would
agree with me.


Ignatius ding
SVDC Communications
===============================================================================

Subject: Re: Encouraging Info.
To: ding@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com
Status: RO

Dear Ignatius,
        Since Christmas is coming soon and it takes time for letters/cards to
reach wherever you're sending.  I think it would be more meaningful to do
the letter/cards for prisoners for Chinese New year -- January 23, 1993 is
the first day of the Chinese New Year.  What do you think?
                                                        Janie
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Ningping Fan <fan@TAMMY.CATH.PUH.UPMC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Patriotism
Reply-To: Ningping Fan <fan@TAMMY.CATH.PUH.UPMC.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:37:21 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu, library@sunspot.sunspot.noao.edu

John Cornett <library@sunspot.sunspot.noao.edu> writes
>
>       It seems possible that the concepts of patriotism and world citizenship
could
>       co-exist. For example, I am a member of my family, I am a resident of Su
nspot,
>       I am a "New Mexico" person, and also a citizen of the United States.
>       I hold loyalty to all of these.
>
>       While I love my family, I do not hold grudge or suspicion against others
 in
>       Sunspot, and in fact my "family pride" tells me otherwise.  While I love
 my
>       commmunity, I do not hold grudge against others in my state.... and so o
n.
>
>       If a member of my family, community, or state, does wrong thing to other
s,
>       I should be upset, because it reflects on me and on the concepts of tole
rance
>       and fairness, which family and society stress as important values.
>
>       It could be only one more short step to be world citizen, it seems to me
, and
>       this may be a natural progression of humanity.
>
>       This simply means that we have a stake in the future of the earth as a w
hole,
>       including our family and other; and that the greatest patriotism of all
may be
>       to underlying concepts and principles which are supported by family,
 community,
>       province, country, and all of society.
>
>       In traditional Chinese society, I believe these include mutual respect a
nd
>       tolerance, an internal honor, honesty, fairness, patience, and hard work
,
>       among others. If one is patriotic to such principles, I believe he will
be
>       a great world citizen as well as a great citizen of his home country.
>
>       John Cornett
>

Dear Friend:

You know a lot about the positive side of the Chinese traditions. But purely
 based
on these may not be able to make a person successful or even the world peaceful.
 E.g.
Kuwait would be occupied by Iraq if U.S. and the rest of the world would not
 standup
with the aggression, no matter how Kuwaiteses are honesty and hard worked. The
 bottom
line in many world affairs or similar things inside an institute is the power
 struggle.
The strong wins the weak.  Even in the traditional China, the people who against
 the
emperor will be killed with his/her entire family and nine-relatives.

- Ningping Fan, U.P.
From: canand
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: fddsdsfadsdsfsaf
Date: 21 Dec 92 02:51:45 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: starfish.cps.msu.edu

dfsff
fdsfsfdfas
sdfsafffdsfa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: John Cornett <library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU>
Subject:      Re:  Clinton's New Move
Reply-To: John Cornett <library@SUNSPOT.SUNSPOT.NOAO.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:11:09 GMT
Comments: To: C0370%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu, CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

In previous post, Diane writes:

>It seems to me that American leaders always prioritize their national
>interests on the top when they come to handle the international affair.
>Mr. Clinton is no exception. His line of Chinese affair was revised
>a few times in less than two months. It's obvious that he is more
>flexible and pragmatic than many people thought while less integral
>and consistent than some people expected.

(parts deleted)
--------------

My guess is, Governor Clinton is trying to feel out the CCP leadership,
to try to gauge intentions.

The signals from CCP seem very mixed to me, much economic opening with
political repression. It looks somewhat like Pinochet regime of Chile,
though with an ultra-leftist wing leaning to Abidael Guzman of Peru.

They are Marxist-Leninists, Marx taunts and ridicules us in Manifesto
while Lenin says he will bury us with our own greed. Yet they seem
amiable to us, especially to the bourgeouise, who they are supposed
to despise, and who in former days might be killed.

While democratic principles are precious to us, much like freedom from
foreign domination, to the Party they seem like trivial nuisances, or
"ploys" to cause trouble. In the old days, it was the U.S. Imperialists
they despised, now it is Chinese people who value democratic principles.

I have tried very hard, but cannot understand how Party leaders think,
and Governor Clinton is surely trying to understand this, too.

John Cornett
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: JQIN@KENTVM.BITNET
Subject:      help
Reply-To: JQIN@KENTVM.BITNET
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:34:29 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.bitnet

Hi friends,

Does anybody know the current address of Yao Yun-Da, who came from East
China Normal University in later 1991, and now is a graduate student of
Geography (?) at Oregan State University ?  He is a old friend of mine but
we have lost contact since 1991. Anyone who know his address please forward
it to Jqin@kentvm.kent.edu

Thank you very much.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china,soc.culture.hongkong
From: leung@DSG.Tandem.COM (Steven Leung)
Subject: Re: My dismay (was: Re: What do you think of Chris Patten)
Originator: leung@bittemple
Organization: Tandem Computers
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:34:15 GMT


cw@orion.uucp (C.W. Chung) writes:

|> ... IMHO, the democracy of
|> HK is really linked to the democratic process in China, and you are
|> going to have a lot of resistance from the Chinese leaders if HK
|> moves way in front of China.                               ooooo
   ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

HAHaha. Are Chinese leaders really so narrow-minded as you said? HK
already "moves way in front of China" in many aspects such as econ.
dev., living standard, political openness, ... So what other areas
HK must not "move way in front of China"? Could you give us a list
once and for all so that we won't make such stupid mistakes?

|> The economic development and the loosening of political grip in China
                            ???oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|> is nothing short of astounding. ...

I don't question about the econ. dev. part, but I wonder how you derive
this "loosening of political grip" dev. from, say, the recent 14th CCP
congress. There are indeed reports about improvement of the conditions
of some dissidents' sprouses, but they are exactly the signs that outside
pressure does work. Of course, you opt for another interpretation.

|> ... If the trend could be upkept, I think the political process in China
|> is going to be less and less opaque as well.

HAHaha, yeah, they already said that they prepare to setup a shadow govt.
in ShenZheng, and there is no shortage of people like Lo Tak Sheng in HK,
and even overseas. I just don't understand why they are so afraid of letting
people participating in the political process if "the trend" is to make the
process "less and less opaque."

|> ... Even in the case of Tai Ah Bay Nuclear Reactor, I think China has
|> been careful to try to consult and explain the situation (probably not
                   ooooooo???????
|> to the satisfaction of most people of HK though).  I do think China do

HAHaha, (just can't stop laughing), yeah, they obviously try hard. They
manipulated thru some Legco member to make a so-called investigation trip
to Europe and cooked up with a report to support the decision. (Some ugly
lady, unfortunately, has been sacrificed in the process.) Is this what
you called "consult"?

|> want to have the support of public opinion to the extent feasible, but
|> they just don't know how.  (They probably could use the service of
|> some marketing and advertising agencies to present their case :)

Yeah. I'd say you are much capable in providing more valuable service.
But you need more GaoGan connections, not just connections to senior/
very_very_senior HK govt. officials, because they are to be dumped
no matter what after 97. Without very_very_senior CCP GaoGan backings,
you could be sacrificed just as easy as Tam Wei Chu.

Steven
-- 
328. Seek opportunity, not security. ...
        - Life's Little Instruction Book by H. J. Brown, Jr.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Real thing rather cheap talk
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:54:05 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Shizhong Chen wrote:
>(than what?). Did lix care if the wives and kids of the political prisoners
>think so? The wife and daughter of Ren Wanding are living on the streets
>of Beijing, did lix care if they think so?

>4. "Shame on you, who love China FROM ABROAD ONLY!" I conclude with quoting
>Xiong Bo.

>Shizhong Chen

According to long experience on China-nt, especially the latest hot debate
around Xiaowen Li, some netters such as Shizhong Chen, Xiong Bo,
Zhang Yun Fei and Li Jinghong always sound like that they "trully" and
"most" care human rights in China, especially the family of political
prisoners suggested in the above post.

And I, as charged by Shizhong Chen in his e-mail to Mr.Wing, am a
extremist who support CCP rather than HR.

Today, no more cheap talk. I am a poor student, but I will match any amount
of money any of the four netters I mention above will claim to donate
to the family of Ren Wanding, as long as he is also a student. (I cannot
match the amount donated by someone who has a full-time job until I get my
own job). If you four D-fighters cannot accept my challenge, better think
it over before accusing me and others whether you take human rights and
democracy as serious as I am.

I suggest that we all donate $100 each person (then total is $500!) to the
family of Ren Wanding. Or you could raise it and I will match. I have the
channel to send the money to them and give you receipt. Or we all deposit
the money to IFCSS, after I send my own money and get the receipt IFCSS
reimburse me. Or even I could send the money to you if you also have a
safe way to send the donation back.

This is the real thing rather than just cheap talk. I suggest all those
who think they love human rights and democracy than I do match my
proposed donation. How about Mr.Wing and Mr. Gu of my campus? But remember
this $100 need to be out of your own pocket rather than from a fund or
organisation.

It's also a test to see who really care about HR in China. I hope we all
can pass the test.


William Deng
From: lwang@MARINER.AMC.EDU.AU (Luo Wang)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: What A Similarity Between CCP and FDC!
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:58:31 GMT
Reply-To: Luo Wang <lwang@MARINER.AMC.EDU.AU>
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: China Net <CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu>

The correct title should be: An Example of Similarity Between CCP and FDC.

I have noticed a great similarity between CCP and FDC in their dealing with
the HongKong Issue and FDC Australia Issue respectively.

Issues:

In HongKong

The plan for expanding democracy in hongKong, revealed by Governor Chris
Patten in October, has been endosed by the Legislative Council in HongKong
in November.

In Australia

The issue of distribution quota for the delegates from FDC Aust. to attend
the Jan. FDC and CAD meeting has been solved by a ballot in the round-table
meeting in July in Canberra, Australia.

The development after the meetings

In HongKong

The CCP, through its unofficial embassy in Hong Kong, the New China News
Agency, is mounting its campaign to force the members of the Legislative
Council to have Patten's proposals scrapped.

It is reported that there are up to 12 members of LegCou are now believed to
be undecided in the face of hostility and threats from China.

In Australia

After Canb. meeting, an unauthorized or UNofficially authorized figure, Mr.
Li Ke Wei, somehow has collected a list of signatures from the people who
attended the Canb. meeting to scrap the agreement reached at the meeting.

The more astonishing thing is that, the Supervisory Committee of FDC,
especially its Chairman, Mr. Qian DA, has confirmed Mr. Li's unauthorized
proposal without asking the validity of Li' underground activity.

However, despite the similarity in these two cases, I somehow feel at least
CCP has showed some respect to LegCou because it has to be decided in next
ballot held in LegCou. And lobbying the members of the LegCou indicates
that, at least, CCP is playing the game with Petten abiding by the rules of
the game.

But in FDC, without a further discussion and an authorized ballot among FDC
Chapters in Australia, our Supervisory Committee has accepted Li's
unauthorized list of signatures as the solution. I mean, the Supervisory
Committee of FDC has not showed any respect to the FDC Canberra meeting and its
formal democratic procedure.

It seems to me it would be just like that Beijing can declare that
without another ballot in Legislative Coucil, the Patten's proposals are
invalid, simply because Beijing has already worked out enough votes to
reverse LegCou's early endosement.
But I just don't believe Beijing would say so. However, the Supervisory
Committee of FDC has done so without saying so!

Is the CCP behaving more decently than FDC?

We may all agree that politics is dirty, but, is it still far too early for
FDC to play dirty at its early stage and within FDC itself?

If you are not going to offer the Chinese people a better alternative, Why
FDC?

Luo Wang

Australia
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china