From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM)
Subject: Re: Religious Freedom (Re: Gays in the Military..what nobody is talking about:)Summary:
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:45:11 GMT

In article <daj20.724117788@junkers>, daj20@amdahl.com (Daniel A Jatnieks) writes...
>graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) writes:
> 
>> [...]
> 
>>Let me clarify...
>>One of the arguments against voluntary prayer that I hear over and over
>>from the left is that those who do not participate may feel "left out"
>>and therefore feel "ostracized" or somehow "inferior".  Poor babies.
>>This is pure CRAP and as hypocritical as you can get.
> 
>	just because there is a stupid argument, as i agree this
>	is, doesn't mean there aren't other better ones or that
>	your viewpoint is therefore the best.

Of course.  I agree.

> 
> 
> 
>>Bullcrap.  This whole prayer thing has little or nothing to do with
>>separation of church and state, and everything to do with the fact that
>>the left is _afraid_ of anything which even hints of "values".
> 
> 
>	well i do think the prayer thing has everything to do with
>	the seperation of church and state.

So do I.

> 
>	but i wonder if we are talking about the same thing.  just
>	what is your understanding of what this prayer thing is?
>	my understanding is that there is a movement to legislate
>	a law *requiring* a moment of silence in schools, the purpose
>	being for children to make a silent prayer.  to me this is
>	clearly violating the seperation of church and state.  i also
>	believe that any child who wishes can currently say a silent
>	prayer whenever they choose - there is no law preventing this
>	(although there may be some ignorant adults hampering it).

I'm talking only about _voluntary_ prayer.  Perhaps there is a
misunderstanding on my part what "voluntary prayer" as mentioned in 
the media has really meant.  

I agree, there should never be a _requirement_ that anyone participate
in something that is affiliated with religious practices, but I also
think that if a student desires to pray during school hours, they should
not be prevented from doing so.

Why?  Because to many people, religion, like eating, sleeping, having
sex, etc. is not just a _practice_, but a _way of life_.  Why deny
to them what they may consider fundamental, essential, daily functions
_IF_ it is totally and truely voluntary and will not disrupt the rest
of the school?

That is possible, but unfortunately, this is where the "left out"
argument is usually brought up.  It's a straw-man as far as I'm
concerned, _because_ of similar situations such as cheerleading, 
ballplaying, etc.

> 
>	as far as arguments in favor of prayer in school, i certainly
>	*do not* buy these:
> 
>		* but my child lacks the self-discipline to say a silent
>		  prayer in school like i want them too.  therefore it
>		  needs to be required so the teacher will ensure that
>		  my child does it.
> 
>		  i don't think so.

Neither do I.

> 
>		* but my child feels ostracized, left out, or inferior
>		  because no other students are taking a moment of
>		  silence to pray.  therefore it should be required
>		  so my child won't feel left out.
> 
>		  definitely not.

If it's a way of life to that student, then I must disagree.  Otherwise,
you're right.

Except, the student who wishes to pray should not be prevented from doing
so, even if it means going elsewhere to do it.

AND, it should never be "required" of anyone.

>>>| 
>>>|You apparently believe that this is true.  Let me attempt to convince you 
>>>|that it is not.  A blind, grade-school girl was quietly praying her rosary 
>>>|beads on the school bus.  The bus driver took them away and the school 
>>>|forbade her from praying the rosary (even quietly) in public.
>>> 
>>>	Unfortunate.  And as far as I am concerned, the girl should not 
>>>have been prevented from doing her chants.
>>> 
>>Sounds to me like that bus-driver needs a little "sensitivity training".
>>Jim Graham 
> 
> 
>	i agree.
> 
>dan jatnieks.                      i'll take these opinions if no-one else will.
>daj20@ruts.ccc.amdahl.com

Jim Graham 

        -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
                          Neither do they speak for me.
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