HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ted@nmsu.edu (Ted Dunning)
Subject: Re: An Insight
Reply-To: ted@nmsu.edu
Organization: Computing Research Lab
	<1992Sep29.203714.17086@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:43:08 GMT


In article <1992Sep29.203714.17086@nas.nasa.gov>
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:

   In article <Sep28.174436.58657@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
   trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

   >Lying staring at the stars last weekend I had an insight.  It was
   >one of those clear, moonless, wilderness nights and the stars were
   >uncountably many.

   Not to burst your romantic bubble, there are approx. 4K stars
   visible to the human eye (both hemispheres, not all at one time).
   Even the best cosmological models make for countable & finite
   numbers and ..... ;^)

well, aside from the mathematical definition, there are some of us who
have trouble counting much beyond 10.

   (Down to the +5 apparent magnitude. [I wanted to be an astronomer when I was
   younger, science, remember 8^)])

i know that i can see beyond +5 magnitude in the mountains.  there
have been times when i have counted 10 or so pleiades on cold clear
winter nights.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: redd@mpx2.lampf.lanl.gov (Dale Redd -- MP-6 Operations)
Subject: Re: Encountering contraband in the backcountry
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: LAMPF Data Analysis Center, Los Alamos, New Mexico
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 20:33:00 GMT

In article <1aj76hINNp3o@moe.ksu.ksu.edu>, diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson) writes...
>In <1992Oct2.233521.26251@newshost.lanl.gov> mwj@beta.lanl.gov (William Johnson) writes: 
>Hey, this really got me thinking.  From prime-time news shows, news-paper
>articles, jungian group conciousness or whatever, I've got this weird
>impression of backcountry marijuana patches, coca plantations, etc... that
>supposedly litter the American backcountry that are defended by booby-traps,
>men with machine-guns, etc...
> 
>So, has anybody on this network ever had such an encounter?  Do you know of
>any friends who have died 'mysterious deaths' in the backcountry?
> 
>I'm sure that any average grower would avoid touristy areas, but then again,
>so do we.  I've done some bushwhacking in decidedly non-scenic areas and
>I've never seen anything. 
> 
>A related phenomenon would be Covert Government listening posts, transmitter
>stations.  But they're pretty well documented.  And I've actually run across
>one or two antenna's coming out of small concrete buildings, surrounded by
>high fences and razor-wire.  Could be Forest Service or CIA, who knows.  But
>what about this drug thing?
> 
>-David
> 
>--
>diverson@phys.ksu.edu

First, would you recognize a pot patch if you stumbled upon one?  This is not
meant to be insulting.  Pot growers have learned to be very good at tucking 
their plants away in similar foliage or using camoflage.

Second, if you are doing most of your stomping in Kansas (Hint:  ksu.edu), then
I don't think you will run much risk of running across marijuana growing on
public lands.  New Mexico, for instance, has better growing conditions.  Also
Northern California.  The plants are also much easier to hide in mountainous
areas.

Third, there are no coca plantations in North America.  Coca is not indiginous
to the USA.

As far as the electronic listening posts, or whatever, I used to run across
devices as you decribed near the periphery of the Savannah River Plant back
when I was growing up in South Carolina.  Never saw anyone nearby, never 
bothered any of 'em, don't have a clue as to what they were.

--Dale

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Wolves
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:38:20 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

Hi all,

A sad note, I heard this through a friend so I would wait and see if it
makes the papers.  Over the weekend a wolf was shot and killed outside
of Yellowstone.  From what he heard the person who shot it knew it was
a wolf.  In Wyoming the wolf is still considered a preditor and can be
shot without question.  However, I believe the Endangered Species
Act would override any state law.  In someways all this is good and bad
news, maybe there are more wolves in the area than people think but we can
not afford to lose one to some SOB shooting it.

Also it seems that a female grizly killed a Wisconsin man over the
weekend in Glacier National Park.  They believe he came upon and
probably startled the female who had cubs.  Naturally the mother was
pissed and did what comes naturally, protect her cubs.  The man was
reported to have claw marks from head to toe.  This is rather sad but
it is an exspected part of nature.

So I guess the score is even with these two events but in the long run
man is ahead ?? (No being that some are very selfish we are behind).

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: heycke@sumex-aim.stanford.edu (Torsten Heycke)
Subject: Southern Utah: Where to Go?
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Organization: Stanford U. Knowledge Systems Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:22:43 GMT

My wife, 6mo old daughter and I are traveling for 8 days down to southern
Utah (btw, the three of us are flying for $198rt SF to Las Vegas (Lost
Wages) on SW Airline--good deal). We plan on going to Bryce and Zion and
maybe the north rim of the Grand Canyon. We have no particular itinerary,
however, and would like to explore "special" spots--possibly more remote,
less frequently accessed. We'll have our backpacking gear with us. 

Any suggestions or special places we absolutely shouldn't miss?

Thanks,

Torsten

PS Did you know that there are at least 5 Nat'l Parks in So. Utah?


"A horse may walk to water, but a pencil must be led."
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 01:15:06 GMT
Subject: Re: MISSING PERSON LOCATOR
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

> I think I would put more trust in a good fire if below timberline,
> smokey by day and bright at night.

Maybe.  I recall hearing of a Civil Air Patrol informal study where the
single best signal turned out to be a bright orange square.  Flares were
notably ineffective, at least at getting the attention of an airplane.
A fire would have to be big and smoky to do the job.

I know from personal experience practicing airborne observing that there
is a *lot* of ground to cover and it goes by *fast*.  Once I spent a
couple hours looking for a particular *vehicle* and didn't find it --
turned out to be a couple miles west of one area we searched.  Lots of
close but false hits.
From: jeffs@almaden.ibm.com (Jeff Schneiter)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: PEAK 1 pack by Coleman
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:10:40 GMT
Reply-To: jeffs@almaden.ibm.com (Jeff Schneiter)
Organization: IBM Almaden Research Center

I have just received a hand-me-down from my dad, the PEAK 1 by Coleman.
Never been used. Standard frame.

Has anyone had experience with this one? How much have you been able to
carry? For how long of a trip? How well does it wear? etc...

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   Jeff Schneiter   |   jeffs@almaden.ibm.com    |   (408) 927 - 1498     |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|   "But I don't feel like feeling        |  Standard Disclaimer.          |
|    Feeling like you                     |  Big Blue allows me to think   |
|    Now I'm in the mirror                |  for myself (so far).          |
|    Now it's getting clear               ----------------------------------
|    I fear that I'm in you"   Soundgarden  _Badmotorfinger_               |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:50:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: vice.10464
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Sep30.053810.9113@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> hugh@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:

>Ok, I'll be an oppossum -- one of those flat creatures that live
>on our roads.   Hmmm, on second thoughts...

Q.  Why did the possum cross the road?

A.  Nobody knows, none of them have made yet.


Q.  Why did the chicken cross the road?

A.  To show the possum it could be done.

(Around here possums are otherwise known as "road pizzas."
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 23:22:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep27.013709.4821@nezsdc.icl.co.nz>
derek@nezsdc.icl.co.nz (Derek Tearne) writes:
>but a couple of nit picks and a couple of questions with the classification.
>
>>SO far we have readers who would be:
>>Birds:
>>	Bat   - is a mammal - and a very succesful one at that - the birds
>		may well be replaced by these come the next mass extinction.

Section renamed.

>>NA ground species  
>
>If NA stands for North America some of the following have wider ranges.
>
>>	Bunny rabbit - where these introduced to North America or indiginous?
>>	Oryx         - This is African/Middle eastern (a most elegant beast)
>>	Poodle       - French hunting dog.

No accounting for people's tastes, but I am moving them around.
Other people's permutations are welcome.  Consider all species, but
keep the Tag line before the sig for reference.

>>Amph:
>>	Tuatara lizard  - Is a reptile - albeit a very primitive one.

An editing error.

	Electronic Ranger.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
From: rog@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Roger Haaheim)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 13:27:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Altitude Sickness
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Many years ago, MSR did a study about altitude sickness,
headaches, et al.  As I recall (may not be accurate :^)
the cure was drink lots of water, eat lots of carbohydrates,
and pop antacids regularly.  Seems the problem was acidosis
or some such, and the above helped.  Problem is, I can't
recall whether it was "lots of carbohydrates" or the
opposite...  Perhaps writing to MSR would elicit the
proper remedy.
From: damouth@wrc.xerox.com (David E. Damouth)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: PEAK 1 pack by Coleman
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:04:11 GMT
Reply-To: damouth@wrc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Webster Research Center

The molded plastic frame?  I have an old one.  The bag is skimpy in size, has inadequate closures, and is thin fragile material.  The frame can permanently warp if you cram it under stress into the back of a hot car.  The straps aren't well enough padded to be comfortable.  Other than that, it's fine.  

I used it originally for my children, for whom it worked fine, since they carried very light loads, and the frame is light and has quite a wide adjustment range.

I now use it as a spare, to loan to novice friends for short lightly loaded trips, generally canoe trips where there is only a few miles of walking involved.

---
/Dave
David E. Damouth
Xerox Webster Research Center
damouth@wrc.xerox.com
voice: 716-422-3186
fax: 716-265-7133
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: An Insight
Date: 1 Oct 92 00:44:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep30.221219.3745@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>
>This exchange reminds me of Ray Bradbury's introduction to his "Complete
>Book of Ray Bradbury Poetry", or something to that effect (pub. early
>1980's).  He related that he had a line about how "the birds have not
>seen the stars", and was informed by Carl Sagan (who was on a boat with
>him at the time) that there are birds that migrate by the stars.  He
>came up with "maybe some bird has felt Orion's rise, but see .. but really
>see and know?".

I'd argue that the birds probably see, feel, and know the stars on levels
we can't even comprehend.  I'd argue further that this is also true of
our anscestors.  We have the dubious honor of being the generation most
ever detached from the stars (and the birds too).  When was the last time
you (the reader) looked at the stars?  A week ago?  A month ago?  

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to strip mining
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:59:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

I suspect that it is quite fair to pay the mining companies for the mineral
rights to land where mining is forbidden and they happen to own the rights.
On the other hand, the value of these rights seems to be quite inflated!

The "fair" value of such rights should take into account not only the value
of the minerals we are camping on with our parks, but also the cost of
extraction, including the cost of environmental restoration.

Strip mining, in particular, essentially destroys the surface rights to the
land which is mined.  When the mining laws were enacted, strip mining was
rare, and the result, for the past century, has been a preposterous
situation where people sell the mineral rights to their land for a fraction
of the property value, only to have a strip mine come through and completely
destroy the property.

It seems clear to me that a fair approach to real-estate law would require
strip miners to buy the land they intend to mine lock stock and barrel, then
resell it (typically at a substantial loss) after they've done their best to
restore it after stripping the coal (or gold, or copper, or whatever).

With the law framed that way, I'd bet that strip mining would be far less
popular, and I'd bet that the miners would take far more care to fix up the
mess they make before they leave.
					Doug Jones
					jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: kgg@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Kees Goossens)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Animals (summary)
Date: 30 Sep 92 10:53:55 GMT
Reply-To: kgg@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Kees Goossens)
Organization: The Lavatory for the Foundations of Computer Science


Count me in as a Ptarmigan.  Scottish preferably, somewhere in Knoydart.

Kees
--
Kees Goossens                       Keep in Touch with the Dutch:
LFCS, Dept. of Computer Science     JANET: kgg@dcs.ed.ac.uk
University of Edinburgh, Scotland   UUCP:  ..!mcsun!uknet!dcs!kgg
Wiskunde is bouwen in de geest.	--- Luitzen Egbertus Jan Brouwer.
From: nancy@wilbur.coyote.trw.com (Nancy Jensen)
Subject: Re: Gender questions (was Re: No alcohol, etc in NP.)
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:27:27 GMT

JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com> writes:

>Safety?  I would be very uncomfortable hiking alone or with one other
>woman, although I have some women friends that I would love to hike with.
> Even with the dog I would feel uneasy.  Could be paranoia on my part;
>does anyone have any GOOD women only backcountry experiences??
>JB

I never had a bad women-only backcountry experience.  (Actually, no
bad backcountry experiences come to mind, period.  Even epics have
fond memories to go with them.)

I go into the backcountry prepared for whatever "problems" nature may
present.  People-related problems might be harder to deal with, but
the people likely to cause problems are usually left behind within a
few miles of the trailhead.  The worst we encounter in the backcountry
is an occasional "Are-you-girls-alone?" attitude (and there are at
least two of us).  No, actually, we rarely hear that in the
backcountry.  We hear it at rockclimbing areas that have easy
approaches.

-Nancy Jensen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Gender questions
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:39:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.205035.14493@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
reed@cs.washington.edu (Renee Reed) writes:
>	(Recently a female friend of mine had to find her way out of the
>	wilderness, alone, and off trail, decending 4,000 ft, after witnessing
>	her climbing partner's death.) 

This reminds me of Laurin Elder's book "And I Alone Survived" about
surviving a plane crash near Independence at 13K+ ft then hiking
down only to have people run away from her thinking she was a Manson
follower.  But she descended 9K ft. in her city clothes.  I believe we
have discussed her situation before.

Survival value.

Are you a spotted owl, too? (not to bias you, Say Hi to Richard).

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			Imhof, Cartographic Relief Presentation
			Books on or by Benjamin Whorf
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Fear and Social Conditioning
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 21:24:52 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Thu, 01 Oct 1992 12:45:26 GMT
>FROM:   JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com>
[material deleted]
> Am I taught, conditioned,
>encouraged to fear?  Are all these tacky tabloid shows and news shows
>designed to keep me behind locked doors, with the only contact with
>"civilization" the television?  Is the real message behind "this one
>horrible thing happened to Mr or Ms Average":  this can happen to you, so
>live in fear, our show (and it's helpful sponsors) can keep you safe?

In a word: yes. I'm not trying to be flippant: I just think you've put 
it exactly right.

>The question: If your significant other (female) were to trek alone or in
>an all female group, what would be your degree of concern for her safety?
> I'm talking primarily about the threat of danger from other humans.

Approach it by asking what is essentially a numbers question: 
are the odds of something happening to her in such a situation higher or 
lower than in some reference situation -- walking to work, driving five 
miles at rush hour, or whatever. I don't have any numbers at hand, but 
my strong hunch is that the risk from other humans is considerably less 
on a hike than in a shopping-mall parking lot. 

Does anybody disagree and think it's higher? 

It's a pretty well-known psychological phenomenon that high risks are 
often undervalued -- in part because of their familiarity -- and low 
ones often overvalued because they tap into some phobic component of the 
psyche. E.g. cancer vs. heart disease, because cancer is creepy. So the 
backwoods rapist is scarier than the (far more common?) shopping-mall 
rapist because of... fear of the dark? Of solitude? Of critters?

But there sure is something in the culture. Look at all those slasher 
movies. Group of teenagers goes off into the woods and either has or 
threatens to have sex. You *know* they're doomed. 

--Michael Smith
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: North Face Bullfrog
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:32:58 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep25.130545.26885@walter.cray.com> hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens) writes:
>
>In article <717271794snx@kaijen.ka.sub.org>, kai@kaijen.ka.sub.org (Kai Jendrian) writes:
>> 
>Although I do not have a Bullfrog, I do own a North Face tent, a VE24.  This tent has performed wonderfully for me.  I have never taken it to Mount Everest or anything, but I have winter camped in it and been in some nasty storms.  As I understand it, the shape of a bullfrog is not that condusive to storms, is it?  My ve24 is a geodesic, which stands up pretty well in the wind.

My VE24 stands up fairly well in the winds, but I think the back as to face
the wind.  With the side facing the wind, I've had to pile stuff against the
windward wall to keep it from collapsing.  (We're talking strong winds).

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: donehoo@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Doyle Donehoo)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Where to find fall colors in the Sierra?
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:15:54 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>Yosemite Valley has a tents-only campground called Sunnyside near
>Yosemite Lodge and the Chevron gas station.
>It is low price and first-come-first-serve.  Could be filled by Saturday
>afternoon.

Could be?? How about you may be lucky to find a spot during the week??
There was a time if you got there early enough on a friday, you might
find a spot. Now, even during the week it is a crap shoot. It has been
crowded in January. In a heavy winter it may be different.
Good luck.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Bully! Bully!" - T. Roosevelt with John Muir at Glacier Point       |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The mountains are calling me, and I must go."   John Muir           |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|"Man has got astray out of his orbit, or away from the ends for which |
| he was created." John Muir.                                          |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow
into you as sunshone flows into trees. The winds will blow their own
freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off
like autumn leaves."    JOHN MUIR

"I only went out for a walk, but resolved to stay till sunset, for going
out, I found, was really going in."  John Muir

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The winner is...
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:14:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: inews.BvI54y.E5n
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Oct1.203039.16989@guinness.idbsu.edu>, jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn) writes:

> Well, I've never heard the song on a boom box, but, what about
> the other end of the spectrum of group noise behaviour?

>     I'm not sure how to spell it, nor care, but, nothing 
> is more offending to me personally than the church groups that
> endlessly sing my least favorite song of all time - it sort-of
> sounds somehting like Kumbaya, or Koombaya, or something ....

Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya.
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya.
Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya.
Oh, lord, kumbaya.

I can imagine worse.  Picture a handful of aging, overweight Star
Fleet types huddling around a campfire, attempting to harmonize
"Row, row, row your boat".  Now picture paying $7.00 to go watch
them do it.  (The net warned me, so I didn't).

-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman
From: ecologycntr@igc.apc.org (Ecology Center)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: National parks to be opened to stri
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:40:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep28.191216.27259@midway.uc:1597775713:cdp:1449600040:000:186
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ecologycntr    Sep 28 17:40:00 1992


The National Wildlife Federation has taken on the Bush plan to open
N.Parklands to mining as a key issue to fight. They have an office in
DC... should be in the (202) phone book.

chris