From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: Male Choice Revi (1)
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 06:49:42 GMT

In article <1e8urpINNkjl@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.183247.11298@zooid.guild.org> Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:
>>regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard) writes...
>>AR>>>>>(don and me)  (AR>>> = Adrienne    AR>> = Don)
>>
>>AR>>>Uh huh.  And 'male choice' will exacerbate this problem rather than
>>AR>>>helping it.  Those men who ARE single parents will be even less accomodated
>>AR>>>by our social systems, because they "chose" their single parenthood.
>>AR>>>And they would, through the same argument of choice you mention, NOT
>>AR>>>be entitled to any support from the absent mother.
>>
>>AR>>Please explain.  In particular, please address whether our social systems
>>AR>>accomodate single fathers as they do single mothers, and why the
>>AR>>"argument of choice" implies that a mother would not have to pay.
>>
>>AR>First, you have male parents NOW who are unfairly treated by the courts
>>AR>who do not recognise their equity in parenthood.  And then you are going
>>AR>to determine that some portion of male parents (and ONLY male parents) can
>>AR>say, "See ya!" unilaterally.                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>
>>This is extremely disingenuous, Adrienne.  You make it seem as though people
>>who are Pro-Male Choice, are against women's rights, or at least only in favour
>
>I don't see it that way.  Maybe you can make it clearer for me.  What *I* see
>is that young-men-who-are-concerned-about-being-'caught'-by-some-unscrupulous-
>woman-who-lied-about-birth-control-(but-who-didn't-bother-to-use-birth-
>control-methods-themselves) want a legislated "out" of their predicament.

What you describe is fraud, Adrienne. A criminal act. The man has been misled 
into forsaking birth control, and therefore the risk has been brought upon
the woman BY HER OWN ACTIONS. Do you condone this behavior? Would you SUBSIDIZE
this behavior, if it were your wallet on the line?

As for legislated "out"s, I would argue it the other way around -- paternity
child support is a legislated "in" that has been obsolete ever since abortion
became safe and legal. Why tolerate obsolete and unjust laws?

>The predicament at hand doesn't (supposedly) address any other cases but
>when a man had casual sex and doesn't want to be hit for $$ later.  It would
>*NOT* affect men who intended to have children (and later changed their
>minds), men who intended to have children (and are fighting with their ex)
>or anybody else.  But, since the premise of the predicament itself looks
>kind of nasty and self serving, ...

(Only when grossly mischaracterized, as you have perpetrated above)

>...it gets cloaked in all kinds of feel-good
>language that seems to me to have MAJOR ramifications upon males everywhere,
>and the highly vaunted 'family values' the republicans so admire.

Who's a Republican?

>(Of course, it is also true that most of the folks who have argued in favor
>of pro-male choice have had less than positive things to say about
>women's struggle to gain economic equality in this country, but, hey,
>*I* wouldn't want to be disingenuous, now, would I?)

I would dispute "most folks", Adrienne. See below.

>>Believe me, the reason why men are asking for the right to
>>abdicate parenthood during pregnancy (and only during pregnancy), is because
>>*women already have this right*!
>
>Yah know, Will, you may believe this, but I don't.  We've just seen Steve
>Kellmeyer and Don Beaver come out of the closet on this issue:  they don't
>want women to have the right to abort.  THAT's what they are after, and too
>hell with the reason you mention, above.

Don't lie, Adrienne. You know damn well that Kellmeyer does *NOT* personally 
believe in male choice -- that's just scare tactics he's using. As for Don 
Beaver, I've never seen anything from him that indicates anti-abortion 
sentiments. And let's not forget that, besides those two, there are PLENTY of 
other high-profile proponents of male choice on this here Net:

	Hillel Gazit
	Kingsley Morse
	"Mr. EuStress"
	Kevin Darcy

and many, many, more. Are all those folks anti-abortion, do you suppose?
And what about the dozen or so admitted t.a pro-choice child-support reformer-
wannabes that Kellmeyer amassed on his list several months ago, some of whom 
were pro-choice WOMEN? Are you going to tell me that they're all "secret" 
pro-lifers? Do you think this is some big conspiracy?

So much for your inept guilt-by-association attempt, Adrienne. There is no
positive correlation between pro-life and pro-male-choice. If anything, the
correlation is exactly the opposite way.

>Now, I wouldn't want to tar you with their brush.  Maybe you are sincere in
>your efforts and they are just dishonest folk, whatdoIknow?  How 'bout you
>present an argument for male choice that makes sense, is inforceable, addresses
>a legitimate problem, and does so in a manner that functions with our 
>society, and the net can evaluate your proposal on it's own merits?

One need only look as far as Common Law principles, Adrienne. The idea that
people are responsible for their own actions, to the proportion of their
involvement and/or control over the situation. One need only comprehend the
legal notion of Last Clear Chance. The statutes you think are so "traditional"
and firmly-entrenched, are recent aberrations, and repugnant to our legal
tradition. I think the burden of proof is on you and your fellow apologists
to show why we should KEEP these unjust, incoherent laws.

>>Try asking LeVar Burton, Frank Serpico, and others who are first hand proof of
>>what kind of a problem forced fatherhood really is.
>
>Try asking all the men who have lost their parental access to children if
>they are interested in proposal that would FURTHER WEAKEN it, and see what
>they have to say.  You'd rip the rights away from one group to satisfy another
>group.  That doesn't look like a good solution to me.

Please explain how "proposal" [sic] would weaken the parental access of men.
This is far from clear to me.

								- Kevin