From: rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Do you have any children?
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:43:21 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech CERL/EE, Atlanta, Ga

In article <1993Jan21.140826.9766@sei.cmu.edu> dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood) writes:
>rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu (Richard.Pitts) writes:
>>Before, I respond let me let you in on my view point.  
>>I live my life daily with the help of God through the Holy Spirit's
>>power and motivation.  The Word of God, the Bible, is a source of
>>strength and insight to me, for I do believe it is God's word to
>>us and that it is profitable for study and daily living.
>
>But of course, I know this, no need to point it out.  I'm happy for
>you that you are happy with your belief system.  I mean that
>sincerely.  However, surely you must realize, as I have tried to point
>out repeatedly, that such a belief system is entirely closed and the
>reasoning contained therein is circular.  In other words, the
>reasoning is self-supported only.  I have summarized this belief
>system previously by pointing out that all of the arguments amount to:
>
>1. The Bible is true because it says it is true.

Yet, you seemed to delete my comments about the Apostles being 
eye-witnesses and the recording of their thoughts.  If the persons are 
dead, as happens today in court cases that need to be revisited, why 
are the testimonies of those involved with Jesus discarded???

You aren't denying Jesus lived, but just denying that anything or most
things recorded about him is inaccurate, correct?  Some say that
Jesus was just one of many messiahs of that time.  Why did his
followers seem so convienced and so his name and acts live on today?
Could it be that He was THE Messiah, THE Christ?

Assuming for the discussion that the events did occur as recorded in 
the Bible, how would you have wanted the people (the eye-witnesses) to
have transmitted to others the information (the Truth) they encountered?

>2. My beliefs are correct because I know they are correct
>   (i.e., my personal "testimony" of faith).    

Oh, I guess the effect something has had on my life cannot be
submitted as evidence, correct?  

I believe the power that changed my life is evidence of the gospel,
probably even more so than you believe your experiences point
out the validity of your belief system.

>Now, this is perfectly fine if you want to live your life based on
>such premises, however this is grossly insufficient evidence to
>convince someone like me to forgo my own belief system, with which it
>is incompatible.

In what ways is your system imcompatible?  Is it the great teachings
of Jesus on how to live with God and man or what?  What is your
world view?  Don't give me something about it being above my
ability to comprehend, for some think we evangelicals are too
slow or something.

There are several belief systems prevalent today (e.g., a Creator
God who is involved with His creation, a Creator God who created
and left his creation alone, a God who became the creation, a
creation where everything is God, a system where things evolved
on their own into what we see today, etc.)

I understand that all people don't believe the way I do, but as
the Apostle Paul did in his day, I proclaim the Creator God who
is involved in his creation.  People scoffed then and people
do now.

The following best describes this:

Intro:
    Acts 17:17-21 (NIV)   So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the 
    Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace 
    day by day with those who happened to be there. {18} A group of 
    Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some 
    of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others 
    remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said 
    this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and 
    the resurrection. {19} Then they took him and brought him to a 
    meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know 
    what this new teaching is that you are presenting? {20} You are 
    bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know 
    what they mean." {21} (All the Athenians and the foreigners who 
    lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and 
    listening to the latest ideas.) 

Message and reaction:
    Acts 17:22-32 (NIV)   Paul then stood up in the meeting of the 
    Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you 
    are very religious. {23} For as I walked around and looked 
    carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with 
    this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as 
    something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. {24} "The God 
    who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven 
    and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. {25} And 
    he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, 
    because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything 
    else. {26} From one man he made every nation of men, that they 
    should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set 
    for them and the exact places where they should live. {27} God 
    did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for 
    him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 
    {28} 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some 
    of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 
    {29} "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not 
    think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an 
    image made by man's design and skill. {30} In the past God 
    overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people 
    everywhere to repent. {31} For he has set a day when he will 
    judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has 
    given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 
    {32} When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of 
    them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on 
    this subject." 

Some will believe.

>[On childbirth:]
>
>>|>|>Do you really think 
>>|>|>that this event has nothing to do with the design of the Creator?  
>>|>|
>>|>|I really have no way of knowing, and neither do you.

Here is where I think we started.  Should you have said "I don't 
know and I really don't think you do either", instead of stating
that neither of us has NO WAY of knowing?

...
>I would argue that the Bible is not a direct communication from God.
>Clearly it was written by human hands, indicating at the very least
>one step of indirection, and of course we all know there have been
>many, many more steps of indirection than that.  On top of this is the
>baseless assumption that the original inspiration was God in the first
>place.

Have you every wonder where the Bible came from - why do we have it?
Especially the Old Testament?  If a man had have created a system of
believes and someone to worship, surely he would have made himself
the object of that system.  The OT worships the Creator God and
He sent Jesus the Christ (Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary and Joseph)
to be the man in whom the fullness of God dwelt.  This Jesus was
and is understood to be the Creator himself and not just a man.  Jesus 
is the fulfillment of the OT and not just a guy who wanted to be
worshipped as God.  Even the Apostle Paul, a Jew of Jews, a learned
man, stated this - he said he worshipped God as his forefathers
and he believed Jesus fulfilled what they were looking forward to.
Why do you think this man zealous for Judaism turned and preached
Jesus?  What reason did he have?  He even stated that he did this
not for human reasons, but for God.

>If you are to claim otherwise and expect heathens like me to buy into
>it, the burden of proof is on your side.  And again, saying that the
>Bible is God's word because the Bible says so is not sufficient by a
>long shot for heathens like me.  If your mission is to convert us, you
>cannot succeed in this fashion.

Arguments from design and from the world around us are part of the
reasons we believe.  See Acts 17 above.  It is statistically amazing 
that we exist.  Even non-christians know or believe some things are
constant (e.g. the laws of nature - physics.)  Some would argue we
exist by virtue of how these laws work, yet, couldn't there be
a force behind these laws?   Why are these things our only absolutes?

>>God has given us knowledge and it is available to all who believe.
>
>"You must believe in order to believe" is merely a variant on the two
>themes that I pointed out earlier.  It is circular and not even the
>tiniest bit convincing to heathens like me.

I'd agree that God responds to those who call on him and they must
believe he exists.

>>|The first possibility is certainly true, presuming the existence of
>>|god, unless he is really stupid.  The second possibility would be
>>|remarkable, except I already know where your special knowledge comes
>>|from: your closed, circular belief system.  
>> 
>>Yes, I guess an All Powerful God telling one something is just and 
>>argument from authority.  Because He JUST SAID something which 
>>doesn't support one's own belief system, then one can throw it out, 
>>even though he is the reason for our existence, correct?
>
>If God "JUST SAID" something contrary to my beliefs, and said it to me
>directly, I would certainly not "throw it out".  Of course, this has
>not happened.

Into what areas do your beliefs extent? (i.e., do your beliefs only
pertain to the natural physical world, such as laws of physics
try to model?  Or do they also define what can happen, does happen,
or doesn't happen in the spiritual or emotional world?)

>Is it possible for you to acknowledge the circular nature of your
>argument?  Can you just admit: "yes, I acknowledge that my proof for
>the veracity of the Bible as God's Word is the Bible itself, not from
>a direct communication that I have with Him."

The Bible is part of it, but the creation you and I live in is also
part of it.  The fact that we even exist is part of it.

>[Some more deleted.]
>>Here I believe you misunderstand the power of God's Word in my life.
>No, I have not.  I understand it perfectly.

It doesn't seem that you understand it "perfectly".  Maybe I have
trouble with your use of words that are extreme, especially,
when you apply them to my knowledge and your understanding of
my knowlegde.

...
>>How could you know this without being everywhere at the same
>>time and so from your omnipresence or omnipotence be able to say God
>>does not exit?
>
>Sorry, never said it.

You never used those words, but to tell someone that there is NO WAY
(another example of extreme words applied to me) seems to be a claim
of omnipresence and omnipotence.  Why?  How can you tell me there
is no way, if you don't know all about me NOR do you know that
God does not reveal himself more completely to us who call on him,
who love him and obey him? That is unless you yourself know all things.

>[Banal discussion over Richard's motivations deleted.]

Sorry for boring you, but I pray it was not in vain.

>I am guilty only of a little bit of sarcasm, however you most
>certainly did imply the connection of:
>
>	childbirth ->
>	wonderment of our existence ->
>	designer, creator God ->
>	Jesus = God
>
>Let's review what you said up above:
>
>"It [childbirth] points to a Creator God and Jesus is understood to be
>the Creator, God, Himself."
>
>"It is one and the same, if Jesus is God, the Creator, and that is
>the way we know Him."
>
>Surely I must conclude that if you are correct, it is necessary that I
>buy into the Christian Jesus myth: born of a virgin, God in the flesh,
>crucified, resurrected, corporeal ascention, etc., which is exactly
>what my tongue-in-cheek statement was explicitly referring to.  Or are

Understood, but I didn't say that these were necessarily automatically
nor that they all happened upon your viewing the birth of your child,
which is what you stated, correct?

>you suggesting that I need not believe in all of these incredible
>events?  If so, apparently I may pick and choose by arbitrary
>standards which parts of the Book to believe.

Coming to God, the Father, is only through Jesus the Son.  If we
don't believe in Him (his eternal nature from long before his
incarnation, his physical life, death, resurrection, and ascension)
we would have no hope.  For if there is no resurrection, we have
no hope and this requires a death and this requires a life and this
requires a birth, which for Jesus was a virgin birth.

>Well, I have news for you: I have done so.  I find parts of the book
>at least plausable, parts questionable, parts outright absurd.  I've

I can understand this.

>used my (presumably) God-given sense of reason to make personal
>judgements on the matter, based on my own sense as well as on
>scholarly and scientific evidence, and I'm at peace with the decisions
>I've made.  If I'm to be toasted in the afterlife for using the brain
>that God gave me, well, then I guess there's not much I can do about
>that.

Part of the afterlife has to do with one's deeds, but part has to
do with one's response to God's once and for all sacrifice for us,
Jesus the Christ.  Only those who are righteous (justified) can
be with God and man cannot merit this on his own, but only by
Jesus death - only by Jesus' blood covering our deeds.

>>|You haven't even begun to make the case for birth pointing to a
>>|Creator God, much less the more remarkable jump to Jesus=God and
>>|Bible=Truth. 
>>
>>The Jesus=God and Bible=Truth all are the same to me.  
>
>It is refreshing to see such honesty, even when accompanied by the
>failure to acknowledge the logical leaps involved.

As you point out you own self, I believe, you aren't the one who can 
give all the reasons for why the Bible is supposedly riddled with
problems, and neither am I completely able to give you all
the logical reasons for faith in Christ.  Part of the work of
God is our/my telling what I know - the big part is the Holy
Spirit of God doing the work.  God gives the increase - not man.

...
>I am not above any absolutes that I am aware of.  The only absolutes
>that God has revealed to me are those of physics, and we're not even
>too sure of what all of those are yet.

Why do absolutes not exist in Spritual and moral matters, or do they?

...
>On the correctness of my beliefs: they are correct only for me, and I
>am content with them.  I'm also happy for you that you are content
>with yours.  I think Jesus would have encouraged such tolerance, don't
>you?

Why can't there be some absolutes with respect to what is right
in this area.  Or are you saying everything is right?  I doubt that.

...
>>If a miracle does happen one says
>>"Oh that can't happen" and so one will deny or ignore it, for it 
>>contradicts one's own assumptions.  Don't we rule out the Creator
>>God's intervention into mankind by saying that miracles cannot occur?
>
>No.  My belief system is open.  I never said miracles CANNOT occur,
>hence your assumptions are invalid.  In contrast, you believe that
>miracles DID happen, and on a regular basis.  The burden of proof is
>on you, not me.

Sorry, I got the impression that you discounted some events recorded
in the Bible, because the violated the understood laws of physics.

I believe that miracles did happen, but not at a high rate.  Jesus
even pointed out from an OT example that there were many lepers 
at a given time even in Israel, but only one, Namman, a Samrian,
was healed of leperosy by the prophet.  Miracles were not every
day things, but they did occur and most times, if not always, they
were used to point to God and confirm who Jesus was and not for man's
enjoyment.

Did I misunderstand?

>I presume your followup post will proceed to tell how the Bible
>contains ample proof (i.e., testimony) that the miracles described
>therein actually happened.  To which I will have to point out the
>circularity of the argument, and thus the dance will continue...

Well what do you think?

>--Dave Wood

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu  |    Love and Worship God the Father and His Son, 
                      --|--            the Creator of the Earth. 
Pro-Life!          -|-  |  -|-  Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility! |   |   |   before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc