From: roberts@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Don Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Is NASA really planning to Terraform Mars?
Date: 11 Sep 92 06:47:53 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <1992Sep11.043320.23725@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:
>roberts@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Don Roberts) writes:
>>knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp) writes:

>>unless you're planning to move to Antarctica,
>>I wouldn't get in a tizzy about the "ozone hole." [see Physics Today, Dec
>>'91 for a discussion of the polar stratospheric cloud mechanism for ozone
>>depletion by CFC's].

>Yep. How did PSCs get there... What are they *made* of...

According to the article I mentioned, the PSC's are nitric acid (type I)
or water ice (type II). They serve as nucleation sites for the
ozone-depleting catalysis involving reactive chlorine. Since the ozone
depletion seems to be intimately tied to physical processes that occur
only at the poles, it's not clear (to me) that CFC's can deplete the ozone
anyplace else. Ozone's a very unstable molecule, created and destroyed
locally in the upper stratosphere. So what happens at the South Pole
really doesn't affect us. That was my previous point.

>Also see Science
>about six issues ago where ozone loss and resulting uv increases are killing
>phytoplankton in the antarctic ocean affecting the food chain there. Probably
>funded by chicken littles. George must also be a Chicken Little because
>he's getting a little sweaty there and rushing the CFC ban date. I never saw
>him as a bunny hugger before.

Ah, a rebuttal which cites George Bush as an expert on CFC chemistry. How can
I defend myself against *that*?!...:)

>>As for the "increasing risk of nuclear war" due to nuclear proliferation,
>>Nonsense. The threat of all-out thermonuclear war *is gone* (huzzah!).

>Hmm, might want to inform Hussein about that. You must have personally
>inspected every third world country for nuclear weapons research.

No, but the guy in the office next to me has...Actually, he's only been to
Iraq. Twice. Anyway, since I directly addressed this point in the sentence
right after the one you quote above (see below), I'll just leave this one
alone.

>> The
>>threat of despotic countries seeking to develop nuclear weapons *is* real,
>>and requires more stringent efforts in UN inspections, non-proliferation
>>research, and development of both a defense against limited strikes and
>>the abililty to disable a "terrorist bomb."  Complaining about the "global
>>threat" won't make it go away.

>Nope, neither will ignoring it.

Here, at least, we agree. I even listed four things we can do to address the
problem rather than ignoring it.

>I suprised to hear that you think the present state of apparent nuclear threat
>is permanent.

Where'd you hear that?? Not in anything I wrote. I just got done saying
that the character of the threat had fundamentally changed. Those nasty
little despots you mention, like Sadaam, will ensure that we won't get rid
of *all* of our nukes (are you willing to bet your life on the efficacy of
the IAEA non-proliferation inspection regime? I'm not), but we can
certainly get by with less.

>>Haven't we had about enough of this [Malthusianism--ed.]in the last 200
>>years?? Ever since Malthus first came up with the idea, we've been in
>>Imminent Peril of choking the planet with people. Fortunately, there have
>>been enough people (!) cleverer than ol' Tom that we've managed well enough.
>>Try telling the people in Singapore, Japan, or Taiwan that high population
>>densities guarantee abject poverty and starvation. Ever stop to think there
>>might be more to it than that?

>Hmm. You're right. I feel better now. What's another 5 billion people anyway.
>I'm sure everything will be allllll right.

Good. I'm glad you've come to your senses...:)
--
 Dr. Donald W. Roberts
   University of California                                      Physicist
   Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory         Recreational Bodybuilder
   dwr@llnl.gov                                           Renaissance Dude
Newsgroups: sci.space