HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lacey@egr.msu.edu (Mark M. Lacey)
Subject: Re: Need help linking applications under X
Organization: Michigan State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 09:31:22 GMT

mxd8131@hertz.njit.edu (Marceline D'souza (cis)) writes:

>While building several applications that run under X, I have been
>receiving errors from the linker reporting two undefined symbols:
>	_get_wmShellWidgetClass
>	_get_applicationShellWidgetClass

>I have checked the local documentation and header files, but cannot
>determine which library contains their definitions.  I am working under
>openwindows 3.0 and linking the following libraries:
>	X11, Xaw, Xmu, Xt, Xext

>Does anyone know which library I am missing?

I had the same problem on a large application I am working on.  After
several hours of trying to find out what the problem was, I finally
mailed the sys-admins here who installed the libraries.  I don't know
if they ever figured out exactly why it was occuring, but linking with
the -static flag "solves" the problem.  If anybody has more information,
and knows exactly what the problem is (missing patch? libraries at
different versions?) I'd be interested in knowing.  As a side note,
if though the linker produced these messages, the application still
seemed to run fine all the time --- I never experienced any strangeness
from the executable (although I bet there is probably some way to cause
it to crash with absolute magnificance ;-).

Mark M. Lacey
lacey@egr.msu.edu
Xref: sparky comp.windows.x:20427 gnu.gcc.help:2789
From: tmcconne@sedona.intel.com (Tom McConnell~)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x,gnu.gcc.help
Subject: Re: X11R5 make World on SVR4.0 Intel platform. Help!
Keywords: X11R5 make Worls svr4 intel
Date: 21 Dec 92 02:33:31 GMT
Reply-To: tmcconne@sedona.intel.com
Organization: Intel Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: lightning.intel.com
Originator: tmcconne@sedona


  Platform: NCR 3350, SVR4.02
            gcc-2.3.2

In article <1h07c3INN5ge@chnews.intel.com>, tmcconne@sedona.intel.com (Tom McConnell~) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Dec16.223104.28858@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>, mjma@cbnewsj.cb.att.com
>  (michael.j.matthews) writes:
> > 
> > Help,
> > 
> > I am trying to make World X11R5 on a SVR4.0 ATT/NCR Intel machine.
> > 
> > It doesn't get far before I get this idiotic message:

  Well, I just tried to build X11R5p21 with gcc-2.3.2 on an NCR 3350, and I
cannot get it done. The last time I built X11R5 (p17) was with gcc-2.2.2, and it
had some of the same problems, but did not exhibit this one.

  The problem is currently that "htonl" is defined twice in libX11.a, once in
XConnDis.o and once in XlibInt.o. It is actually defined in <sys/byteorder.h>,
which is part of gcc-2.3.2. <sys/byteorder.h> gets included from <sys/endian.h>,
which is included from <netinet/in.h>.

  This is the error:

    gcc -fstrength-reduce -fpcc-struct-return -o phigsmon phigsmon.o -O
     ../libphigs.a ../../../.././lib/Xaw/libXaw.a
     ../../../.././lib/Xmu/libXmu.a ../../../.././lib/Xt/libXt.a
     ../../../.././extensions/lib/libXext.a  ../../../.././lib/X/libX11.a
     -L/stor/x11dev/R5/iAWS/lib  -lsocket -lnsl -lm
    ld: ../../../.././lib/X/libX11.a(XlibInt.o): fatal error: symbol `htonl`
     multiply-defined, also in file ../../../.././lib/X/libX11.a(XConnDis.o)
    gmake[5]: *** [phigsmon] Error 1
    gmake[5]: Leaving directory `/a/stor/x11dev/R5/mit/extensions/lib/PEX/cp'


  Anyone have any ideas? I don't understand why I would get an error now, since
the include file structure is basically the same. It is possible that I have a
slightly different version of the NCR operating system (SVR4.0 vs. SVR4.02). Did
this change the linker?

    Cheers,

    Tom McConnell
-- 
 Tom McConnell          |     Internet: tmcconne@sedona.intel.com
 Intel, Corp. C3-91     |     Phone: (602)-554-8229
 5000 W. Chandler Blvd. | The opinions expressed are my own. No one in 
 Chandler, AZ  85226    | their right mind would claim them.
From: werner@cs.sun.ac.za (Werner Fouche)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: Supporting Multple Window Systems.
Date: 14 Dec 92 09:27:38 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]


I am looking for a C++ toolkit for multiple window systems. The toolkit
should at least provide a common interface to MS-Windows, OS/2 PM and X11.
The only product that I know of that provide this level of functionality
is "CommonView" by Glockenspiel. What other products are available and
where can I find information about them?

Thank you very much.

Werner Fouche' (Student)
Department of Computer Science
University of Stellenbosch
Stellenbosch, 7600
Republic of South Africa
From: eldred@hare.udev.cdc.com (Doug Eldred)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: Re: Displaying a client on several servers
Date: 15 Dec 92 22:38:24 GMT

There is (or was) a program called "xmx" (for X multiplexor) which ought to do.
-- 
Doug

+------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas K. Eldred                  | E-MAIL: douglas.eldred@cdc.com      |
| Control Data Systems Inc. (ARH282) |                                     |
| 4201 Lexington Avenue North        | FAX:    (612) 482-4393 C/N 235-4393 |
| Arden Hills, MN  55126-6198  USA   | Voice:  (612) 482-4395 C/N 235-4395 |
+------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
|                   "Tradition is the enemy of progress"                   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: len@mel.dit.csiro.au (Len Makin)
Subject: Re: imake, destination override ?
Organization: CSIRO DIT (Melb.)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 03:23:59 GMT


Rainer Klute      klute@irb.informatik.uni-dortmund.de writes:
|> Imakefiles should not require modifications.
|> It is better to either put installation specific stuff into a separate file
|> and include it from all Imakefiles or to specify it on the fly when calling
|> make.
|> 
I would agree with this. To save problems with patches and me forgetting to
change, I now typically try not to change anything and use (from csh):
xmkmf -a
make MANPATH=/public/man LIBDIR=/public/lib BINDIR=/public/bin
!! install
!!.man

which seems to work most of the time, with the proviso about using imake
directly. RTFM for xmkmf and imake too. e.g. for imake:
     -Idirectory
             This option is passed directly to cpp.  It is  typi-
             cally  used  to  indicate the directory in which the
             imake template and configuration files may be found.

Len.Makin@mel.dit.csiro.au               | Senior Computer Scientist    |
CSIRO Division of Information Technology | Supercomputing Support Group |
723 Swanston Street, Carlton             | Tel: +61 3 282 2622          |
VIC 3053, Australia                      | Fax: +61 3 282 2600          |

Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps,comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.announce,comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Seyon 1.5 (X-based telecom program)
Originator: mdw@db.TC.Cornell.EDU
Keywords: Seyon X X11 telecom comm 1.5
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:17:53 GMT

Well, two things worth mentioning. First, I forgot to mention that the
name of the file is Seyon-1.5-tz. Second, there is a tiny bug in 1.5
that shows when you use 'set' in a script. The fix is the following
small diff (will be available at sipb.mit.edu as Seyon-1.5-bugfix1).

*** SeInit.c~	Sun Dec 13 13:37:07 1992
--- SeInit.c	Sun Dec 13 18:23:45 1992
***************
*** 61,66 ****
--- 61,69 ----
  	{ "newlineTranslation", "NewlineTranslation", XtRBoolean, 
  		sizeof(Boolean), offset(newlineTranslation), XtRImmediate, 
  		(XtPointer) True },
+ 	{ "backspaceTranslation", "BackspaceTranslation", XtRBoolean, 
+ 		sizeof(Boolean), offset(backspaceTranslation), XtRImmediate,
+ 		(XtPointer) False },
  	{ "metaKeyTranslation", "MetaKeyTranslation", XtRBoolean, 
  		sizeof(Boolean), offset(metaKeyTranslation), XtRImmediate,
  		(XtPointer) True },
*** SeSet.c~	Fri Dec 11 16:55:10 1992
--- SeSet.c	Sun Dec 13 18:33:55 1992
***************
*** 265,271 ****
  }
  
  set_onoff(flag)
!  int *flag;
  {
    char *strdup();
    char *ptr = strdup(word);
--- 265,271 ----
  }
  
  set_onoff(flag)
!  Boolean *flag;
  {
    char *strdup();
    char *ptr = strdup(word);
***************
*** 274,282 ****
    lc_word(word);
    
    if (strcmp(word, "on") == 0) {
! 	*flag = 1;
    } else if (strcmp(word, "off") == 0) {
! 	*flag = 0;
    } else {
  	fprintf(tfp, "Set '%s' value must be 'on' or 'off'.\r\n", ptr);
  	eof_flag++;
--- 274,282 ----
    lc_word(word);
    
    if (strcmp(word, "on") == 0) {
! 	*flag = True;
    } else if (strcmp(word, "off") == 0) {
! 	*flag = False;
    } else {
  	fprintf(tfp, "Set '%s' value must be 'on' or 'off'.\r\n", ptr);
  	eof_flag++;

--
/M. Saggaf
 alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu



-- 
Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: isc10295@nusunix1.nus.sg (QUEK KENG OEI)
Subject: XTANGO: Where to get?
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 04:17:09 GMT


	Apologies if this is a FAQ but where can I get a copy of Xtango?
I'll also like to know its licencing policy.
	Thanks in advance.


Keng Oei
P.S. I can FTP
--
                                                                       _______
 +---------------------------------------+   |   \    | | |  |  |  |  /   __  \
 |Disclaimer:   All the above comments/  |   | |\ \   | | |  |  |  |  |  |  \__|
 |opinions/views made are my own.  They  |   | | \ \  | | |  |  |  |  \   \
 |do not in any way reflect any official |   | |  \ \ | | |  |  |  |   \   \
 |policy, view or stand on any subject   |   | |   \ \| | |  |  |  |  __\   \
 |by the National University of Singapore|   | |    \   | |  |  |  | /  \\   \
 |blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc        |   | |     \  | |  |--|  | |  |_|  |
 +---------------------------------------+   |_|      \_| |________| \_______/
_____________+_________________________________+________________________________
Keng-Oei Quek| internet : quekkeng@iscs.nus.sg | BITNET:quekkeng@nusdiscs.bitnet
-------------+---------------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: dbl@visual.com (David B. Lewis)
Subject: xgrabsc information sought
Organization: Visual
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 21:58:14 GMT


Does anybody know the status of xgrabsc (currently [?] at 2.2)? I am unable
to contact the author (Bruce Schuchardt, bruce@slc.com); I sent him a diff 
which fixed reversed-color EPSF previews, but I still find that on some displays
I get no EPSF preview information at all (e.g. a block of 00). I'd like to 
know the status of this useful software before I go digging any further.

Thanks.

David B. Lewis		Temporarily at but not speaking for Visual, Inc.
day: dbl@visual.com	evening: david%craft@uunet.uu.net
-- 
David B. Lewis		Temporarily at but not speaking for Visual, Inc.
day: dbl@visual.com	evening: david%craft@uunet.uu.net
From: etxmesa@eos.ericsson.se (Michael Salmon)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: Re: Word Wrapping in XRN
Date: 17 Dec 92 11:12:10 GMT
Reply-To: etxmesa@eos.ericsson.se (Michael Salmon)
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB

In article <5903@esf.esf.de>, klaus@tat2.esf.de (Klaus Wicovsky) writes:
|> Hello ,
|> 
|> My xrn works fine except for one little problem: 
|> 
|> When I want to post an article and I write my text in the Composition window
|> the editor will nicely perform a word-wrapping. It looks ok on the screen.
|> 
|> The problem is that when xrn actually posts the article, it seems to forget the
|> CRs it had done on the screen. In other words, my articles don't contain CRs 
|> unless I insert them explicity.
|> 
|> An example for the correct behaviour would be xmh. There I get my word-wrap 
|> AND the email message does really contain the CRs.
|> 
|> I hope I didn't forget any CRs in this article. Any help is reeealy appreciated. 

xrn just uses a text widget for its composition window and that has a
parameter called autoFill that is by default false, the following
resource will fix that:

XRn.Composition.pane.text.autoFill:true

-- 

Michael Salmon

#include	<standard.disclaimer>
#include	<witty.saying>
#include	<fancy.pseudo.graphics>

Ericsson Telecom AB
Stockholm
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: rthau@qualix.com (Rick Thau)
Subject: Re: X Display Software For the Mac
Reply-To: rthau@qualix.com
Organization: QUALiX Group, Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:10:16 GMT

In article 28063@adobe.com, shansen@adobe.com (Steve Hansen) writes:
>Can anyone recommend software that lets me run a Mac as an X display
>server?  I am looking for a company name/city or phone no of the software
>developer.


We have the current version of MacX available through our company. Please contact
us at the number below to get additional commercial information.

---
- Rick Thau
	voice:	415/572-0200
	fax:	415/572-1300
	email:	rthau@qualix.com
	mail:	Qualix Group, Inc
		1900 S. Norfolk St., #224
		San Mateo, CA 94403
--------------------------------------------------------------
Qualix maintains a mailserver with information files and demo
versions of products.  If you would like more information on
the mailserver, send an email to qfacts@qualix.com (or,
uunet!qualix!qfacts).  The email body should take the following
form:
	BEGIN
	send help 
	send index
	END
	Name
	Address
	Phone
--------------------------------------------------------------
From: bane@vtx.ma.man.ac.uk (Michael!)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: Re: Application to handle talk request?
Keywords: talk, popup
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:43:08 GMT
Reply-To: bane@vtx.ma.man.ac.uk
Organization: Magic Michael's Mushroom Factory.

In article <1g5n30INN1tt@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, durian28@ecst.csuchico.edu (dl) writes:
|> Is there any X-based application that will popup as soon as
|> there is a talk request?  I know there is the 'xtalkbiff', 
|> but I am interested in an immediate popup program with a talk
|> session ready.  Thanks in advance.

how about xtalk?
From: suggs@tcville.edsg.hac.com (Brian Suggs)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: XView vs. Motif (Was Re: XVTDL 3.1 with Xview3 on DECstation)
Summary: Which do you prefer, and why?
Keywords: XView Motif
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:57:58 GMT
Reply-To: suggs@tcville.edsg.hac.com
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co.

In article JSV9E9I@math.fu-berlin.de, beck@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (Andre Beck) writes:
->In article <SHIBUYA.92Dec15202818@chute.bl.applicon.slb.com>, shibuya@bl.applicon.slb.com (Hiroto Shibuya) writes:
->

  [errors about missing fonts when running an xview application deleted]

->What you see here is a great example of incompatibility and dumbness...
->yes I hate that xview thingy...
->
  [gripes with xview deleted...]

->To learn the real Horror you should try to get XView3 compiled from
->source... you will find syntax errors, typos, and silly coded things
->en masse...

I did this when trying to compile an application which needed XView3 back
when I only had XView2 available on my Sun.  Yes, there were a few errors
I had to fix but not that many and they were easily identified from the
compiler messages.

->
->My suggestion to the sun people: come on use Xt & Motif...
->

At least with XView3 I was able to make the fixes without having to buy
the source code!  Besides, why would someone purposefully make their
interface look like a Microsoft Windows clone... Yuck! (IMHO :) )
I would like to hear what others perceive to be the advantages of either
XView or Motif.  (Perhaps another newsgroup would be a better place?
Suggestions?)

  [...]

->,------------------------+---------------------------------------------.
->| Andre' Beck (ABPSoft)  |   TCP/IP-Mail: beck@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de |
->| HG R 142               |   VMS        : hermes::beck                 |
->+------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
->|       Windows is the best placebo against MS-DOOF headaches !        |
->`----------------------------------------------------------------------'

Brian Suggs    - sorry, no fancy .sig
bsuggs@hac2arpa.hac.com
From: alex@lamarck.lif.icnet.uk (Alex Whittaker <alex@biu.icnet.uk>)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: X windows editors - AXE
Date: 14 Dec 1992 12:30:29 GMT
Organization: Imperial Cancer Research Fund
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: lamarck.lif.icnet.uk
Keywords: editor axe textedit xedit


  I require a simple stripped down text editor as an alternative to textedit and
 xedit, preferably with source code available. I have been recommended axe, but
 archie cannot see it. Does anyone have any suggestions..?

  Thanks in advance,

  ..alex
From: mjo@iao.ford.com (Mike O'Connor)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: Re: Simple App. to display text?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 03:13:03 GMT
Organization: Not an official spokesperson for Ford Motor Company
Distribution: world
Reply-To: Mike O'Connor <mjo@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost

In article <1gres5INNpj4@agate.berkeley.edu> larry@cs.Berkeley.EDU writes:

:|> I'm looking for a simple application that can sit at the end of a
:|> pipeline, collect the output and then popup a window showing the text.
:
:Take a look at the Tcl/Tk system from Berkeley.  I think you can do
:what you want with it without much trouble.

Depends on what you mean by "simple".  You may be interested in xless,
available for anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu.  It's reasonably
simple from a code standpoint, and sounds like it does what you want.

And it's another Berkeley product!  :)

						...Mike

-- 
 Michael J. O'Connor           |  Internet:  mjo@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com
 Ford Motor Company, OPEO      |  UUCP:      ...!{backbone}!fmsrl7!mjo
 20000 Rotunda, Bldg. 1-3001   |  Phone:     +1 (313) 248-1260
 Dearborn, MI  48121           |  Fax:       +1 (313) 323-6277
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: jayb@laplace.laplace.math.colostate.edu (Jay Bourland)
Subject: Re: imake, destination override ?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 15:03:09 GMT
	<GAMIN.92Dec4082851@amadeus.ireq-robot.hydro.qc.ca>
	<1fvpraINNrn8@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
	<1992Dec11.032359.20795@mel.dit.csiro.au>
Organization: /home/laplace/jayb/.organization

> I would agree with this. To save problems with patches and me forgetting to
> change, I now typically try not to change anything and use (from csh):
> xmkmf -a
> make MANPATH=/public/man LIBDIR=/public/lib BINDIR=/public/bin
> !! install
> !!.man
> 

I used to use this sort of thing all the time to install stuff in my
personal bin directory.

One thing to watch out for is that if the program feels it needs to
make directories it will try to execute $BINDIR/mkdirhier which is
usually in the wrong place for customized installs. The simplest way
around this is to make sure you symlink mkdirhier into the new BINDIR.

Another approach is to make your own site.def and have imake search it
first by using the IMAKEINCLUDE variable:
IMAKEINCLUDE=-I/dir_with_myconfig
The manual isn't too clear on this, but it should work okay.
From: durian28@ecst.csuchico.edu (dl)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
Subject: REPHRASE: Application to handle talk request?
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:25:18 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: bolger.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1g5n30INN1tt@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, durian28@ecst.csuchico.edu (dl) writes:
|> Is there any X-based application that will popup as soon as
|> there is a talk request?  I know there is the 'xtalkbiff', 
|> but I am interested in an immediate popup program with a talk
|> session ready.  Thanks in advance.

I have received a few replies to the above questions.  Unfortunately, some of the replies
are incorrect.  This is mainly due to my own mistake in incorrectly asking the question.
Let me rephrase my original question and give a scenerio:

	Assuming I am working in an Xwindow environment and suddenly, I receive a talk 
request from a user in a non-Xwindow environment.  Now, I would like a X-based program
to intercept that talk request and pops up a window.  This window will have options for me
to talk to the caller or not.  Any other options would be excellent.

Thanks in advance, and I am sorry for the inconvenience.

-dennis-
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: steve@thermal4.den.mmc (steve ring)
Subject: X spreadsheet program
Organization: mmc
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:51:40 GMT

Does anyone know of a free X spreadsheet program, and where it may be obtained.

Thanks in advance.
-- 
Steve Ring
steve@sun260.den.mmc.com
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: wessel@kub.nl (Wessel Kraaij)
Subject: Displaying a client on several servers
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:19:33 GMT
Organization: Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands


-- 

We want to show a window on several different displays simultateously, in order
to demonstrate a package for a large group of people.

We did this 2 years ago with xwatchin, but this tends to slow down our servers
enormously in our present hw/sw configuration.

I also know xmx but the version I know (1.0) is buggy. This program does a real
multiplexing of the X events which is to be preferred over simply copying a
window, like xwatchwin.

Are there any new versions of these tools available or is there something new to
help us out?

-----------------------------Wessel Kraaij---------------------------
Institute for Language Technology and Artificial Intelligence
ITK		
Tilburg-University 		E-mail: wessel@kub.nl
p.o box 90153			
5000 LE Tilburg-Netherlands 	phone: (+31) 13 663117
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky comp.windows.x.apps:1710 comp.windows.x.motif:8102
From: jeffk@cdibm.fnal.gov (Jeff Kallenbach)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps,comp.windows.x.motif
Subject: mmh?
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:31:39 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Batavia IL
NNTP-Posting-Host: cdibm.fnal.gov

Does anyone know if there is a Motif-based version of xmh?
-- 
============================================================================
Jeff Kallenbach                       |Opinions are not neccessarily shared
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory |by my employer.  In fact, they agree 
708-840-2210                          |with very little of what I say.
============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps
From: guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris)
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps,comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: XVTDL 3.1 with Xview3 on DECstation
Date: 19 Dec 92 19:32:36 GMT
Followup-To: comp.windows.x.apps
Distribution: comp
Organization: Auspex Systems, Santa Clara

>My suggestion to the sun people: come on use Xt & Motif...

They *do* use Xt (although AT&T were the ones who wrote the bulk of the
toolkit in question); see OLIT (and MoOLIT).

XView's non-Xt basis *does* serve at least one purpose; XView is, to a
first approximation, what you get when you attack the SunView source
with a chainsaw and turn it into an X toolkit, so it's somewhat familiar
to SunView programmers, and can be a reasonable toolkit to use when
converting many SunView applications to X applications.  There also
appear to be many people who prefer it to various Xt-based toolkits....
Newsgroups: comp.windows.x.apps