HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fullerto@eggplant.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton)
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 20:35:58 GMT


>In <97348@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:
>
>>Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
>>God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
>>your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
>>read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
>>if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
>>do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
>>actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).
>

	Actually, you just undid your own argument. Yes, AA uses brainwashing
techniques. No one, to my knowledge, has ever disputed it, and no one has ever
expressed a belief to me that it is anything but a wonderful thing. Are you
suggesting that they are less effective when ingrained into a sixty year old
organization than when performed by an individual?

	The mere act of pretending that you believe something that you don't
or behaving as though you do IS frequently enough to effect that change of
attitude after some period of time.*  For me it came about that I did things
that I had previously not been capable of, things turned out in my favor
coincidentally with prayer to an imaginary God, and I achieved an affective
and cognitive state that I could only describe as conscious contact with God.
In short, ultimately it felt right, and my life was working out much better 
than it had been before.

	MOST of my AA friends entered the program as devout Atheists. One
of them still is. Would it be an outlandish guess, then, to say that something
is powerful enough to evangalize 199 out of 200 or so acquaintances?

	Best Wishes

		Tim

*look up Cognitive Dissonance theory 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: warton@ssd.intel.com (Peter Warton)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:20:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.024535.13602@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty) writes:
>
>But, the saying of the "Lord's Prayer" is something else.  Unlikely the
>Serenity Prayer (which, although authored by a Christian theologian, is
>quite non-denominational if you ask me), the "Lord's Prayer" is a
>*specifically Christian* prayer.  When it is said, the Christian religion
>is being observed.  If all the rest of us (pagans, Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
>Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, etc.)  wanted to attend a Christian event,
>we would!  12-step meetings, by their own traditions ("spiritual not
>religious" etc.)  are no places for this prayer, not even by group
>conscience (because even if all those present agree to it, what about the
>next time a visitor or newcomer walks in).
>
>Jeff


Thank you Jeff!


-- 
_____________________________________________________________________________
Peter Warton  (the h was dropped    | Against my better judgement (not to
over 800 years ago) 		    | mention the advice of my friends) I
warton@ssd.intel.com		    | speak for myself.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 04:31:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.182422.17583@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty) writes:
>*In my view*, saying the Lord's Prayer typically violates an *A program's
>principle/tradition of "no denominational affiliation".  I will admit that
>because I truly believe it is a violation of my particular program(s) as
>advertised, I feel more entitled to share my experience of discomfort in
>the group than I would otherwise.
>

Yeah, I agree.  I used to just change the words around to suit myself
(Our creator, who art everywhere, hallowed be thy names...), but I
think the Serenity Prayer would be a much better choice.  Quite a few
groups use that one anyway.  Why use a prayer that has so many negative
connotations for so many people?

Holly


-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Subject: Proofs of God (was Re: 'Playing the Odds')
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 17:02:58 GMT

enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:

>Of course, you're assuming that there *is* no god.  

I would encourage those wanting to discuss the proofs pro/con the
existence of a Supreme Being to move to talk.religion.misc - where
there is an ongoing discussion.

Just a suggestion.

later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
"One can aquire everything in solitude -- except character." 
                    -- Stendhal
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt)
Subject: Re: ANY A vs. Anything ?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:42:05 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1110.779.uupcb@factory.com> bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) writes:
>To All,
>.......lots deleted......................., to give a sense of
>balance to an issue that has gone way out of control. It is not unusual
>for a group to argue. It is healthy to do so. Different oppinions
>stimulate the brain and promote growth. Arguing with yourself serves no
>useful purpose. But, on the other hand I see no guidence of any kind
>here. Does this group have no moderator of any kind ? How long will
>he/she let this go on? It has (IN MY OPINION) gone well past being
>productive and should be put to an abrupt end.  Thank-you
>                                                      BAB
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

....'should be put to an abrupt end?'..........you mean because its not
productive or because YOU simply want it to end? NO there is no moderator,
at least none that I am aware of, but I'm sure that you would be more than
willing to elect one to your liking.. one who agrees with your perception
of when things should 'be brought to an abrupt end'..one who doesn't like
to allow differences of opinion,....one who espouses a 'party line' all in
the name of 'unity'. There are also book-burning techniques and torture.

Well (in MY opinion), recovery requires ideas and techniques other than the
same old ones that are (were) so palatable in 'non-recovery' and, I may
add, that were so futile. Recovery requires a lot of talk, ideas, action,
and exposure to that which was missing in the manner of living which
brought us to *A, *R, this newsgroup, or whatever recovery forum(s) we may
be involved with.

I may ask that if any of you don't like the tone of this group, that you
ask yourself what it is that you are REALLY afraid of? Is really the tone,
or is it fear of the solution?

I also implore everyone to continue to discuss recovery from ALL angles,
not just the ones meeting one's logical standards. You ARE reading this
group because YOU dont have the answers...right?


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com (Holly Hendricks)
Subject: Re: Serenity Prayer Replacement
Reply-To: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com
Organization: DEC
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:11:41 GMT


I like what you posted, but I'm curious about one thing...

why strength instead of courage?

In my opinion it takes both...and to me, neither
word has particular religious overtones.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Holly Hendricks
   Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 29 Sep 92 08:00:42 GMT
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.

In <Sep29.060152.61135@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:

>It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?

Because life is not fair.
-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Subject: Untitled
Originator: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com
Reply-To: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Organization: TRW Space & Defense
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:45:01 GMT


=====Begin post for Adria=====
To the -r person who responded to Richard C.---

     I am referring to 1 sentence and 1 sentence ONLY that you said.
In this Area of AA and NA (and in the neighboring area of NA) all
of which consist of Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton, and all the
little towns in between including this here Ithaca NY............
*A DOES label the people as losers who don't stay with THEIR 12-
step recovery program.  *A DOES label themselves as winners for
staying with their 12-step recovery program even if it is because
they always return to it after every relapse.
     NO ONE in these areas who regularly goes to *A and considers
him/herself as an active member feels *lucky to be alive* because
EGOISM is so fostered that they expect it as a RIGHT rather than
a privilege.  I guess they don't realize that something is not
quite right or they wouldn't keep having the relapses, eh?
     In the Ithaca Area, there are NO alternative recovery systems.
*A exploded in numbers here in the mid-late 80's when, for some
strange reason, it was the IN thing to belong to a *A program.  As
a result *A members control ALL the rehabs & other treatment
facilities.  2 rehabs have been shut down because they REFUSED to
run THEIR programs based on the 12-step recovery methods of *A.
A third which does, is told that they can't call their 12-step
meetings AA meetings because they don't use AA-approved lingo.
Hell, I was in AA here for YEARS and I don't know what the hell
they mean by AA-approved lingo--I thought that the only requirement
to joining AA was not wanting to drink.
     When I've been to the AA meetings at that rehab, I thought they
were fine.  They were using AA *Conference* approved lit, and they
were talking about recovering from alcoholism and how to alter
behavior to change from centering life around drinking to centering
life around working the steps.  I don't know what is wrong with
this, but they are being blackballed for it.
     I just called someone after I wrote this.  This person knows
a bit more than I do about this.  Apparently AA, as a whole in this
area, wants the rehab meetings to focus on talking about alcohol
and not touch recovery.

     ...I'm sorry....I have to end this....this doesn't make sense to me.
=====End post for Adria=======
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: enigma@netcom.com (Enigma)
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:37:12 GMT

In article <97348@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.153047.13158@news.eng.convex.com> schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) writes:
>>So please dont tell me that 'one can't come to believe
>>something by deciding to do so'. What you can do is try something that,
>>EVEN IF IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU, has worked for others. Then based on
>>the results, maybe come to understand. 
>
>Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
>God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
>your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
>read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
>if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
>do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
>actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).
>
>An example I sometimes give to make this point is: were I to offer you
>a million dollars if you could believe there was a blue kangaroo in the
>room with us, could you do it?
>

Of course, you're assuming that there *is* no god.  I offer a counter-
example: Prove to me that there is no blue kangaroo in the house next
door (which is locked, curtains drawn, you have no key, etc.).

-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RR vs. AA, or RR + AA?
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:36:20 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

Richard Carnes:
|I would have no objection to the creation of an "alt.recovery.aa" or
|"alt.recovery.12step", which would be intended only for people who are
|working AA or other 12-step programs, and in which criticisms of these
|programs would be strongly discouraged.  Nor would I object to an
|"alt.recovery.theory", which would be intended for discussions of the
|principles underlying various recovery methods, their pros and cons,
|scientific research on addiction, etc.

I think we should just have alt.recovery.advocacy and be done with it.
("MY recovery program is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR to yours and I can
PROVE IT OBJECTIVELY." "Well, MY RECOVERY PROGRAM has a 68040 and
onboard DSP.") (insert smileys if you don't get the sarcasm)

I can only speak for myself, and I do realize the hypocrisy of
criticizing cross-talk by cross-talking, but I do want to say that IF
someone wants to tell me all about their program, what worked for
them, how they got better, I WANT TO HEAR ALL ABOUT IT.

If they want to tell me that ANY recovery program is bad, wrong,
stupid, etc, I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

I do agree with you, Richard, when you say that 12-step programs are
not for everyone. They are not the "perfect fit" for me, for example,
which is why I'm reading here and asking people for their experiences.

Indeed, just about everyone I know in any recovery program has
personalized some program to make it right for them. Isn't there an AA
slogan that says "recovery is a personal affair"?

You could, however, couch your prose a little more diplomatically. Not
everyone WANTS an 800-lb gorilla for a pet. If you advertise your
"alternative pets," so to speak, people will hear you. You needn't
fight the gorilla.

Why don't you tell us all about RR? I, for one, want to know about it.
Maybe some aspects of it can be added to my personal recovery program.
Anyway, what the hell is the name of the "small book"? I want to buy
it.

bill coderre
From: ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:41:16 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Oct5.170531.27859@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com.UUCP (Mark Sawyer) writes:
>>The Lord's Prayer is a *SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN* prayer.
>>I can assure you that when it is said, the Christian religion is being
>>observed, whether or not people choose to be in denial about it.
>
>    Speak for yourself, Jeff, because you do not speak for me.  I
>can assure you that *I* am not observing the Christian religion when
>I say the Lord's Prayer.  I was raised Protestant so I know what it
>means to "observe" the Christian religion and I am anything *but* a
>practicing Christian today.  It may seem that way to you but that is
>not the way it is for me.

Look, the fact that you may be able to perform this feat of mental
gymnastics doesn't change the fact of the matter, viz., that
"The Lord's Prayer is a *SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN* prayer."
Let's check it out, shall we?

	Our Father, Who art in Heaven
	Hallowed by Thy Name

(reference to the "Father" member of the Christian Trinity,
and to the Christian post-mortem paradise)

	Thy Kingdom come

(reference to the "Second Coming" at the end of the world)

	Thy will be done
	On Earth as it is in Heaven
	Give us this day our daily bread
	And forgive us our trespasses
	As we forgive those who trespass against us
	And lead us not into temptation
	But deliver us from evil
	For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever
	Amen

(references to a eternal humanoid divinity who controls nature
and dispenses moral penalties and/or refrains from doing so)

'Nuff said?

One life at a time,

Mark
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Subject: Untitled
Originator: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com
Reply-To: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Organization: TRW Space & Defense
Distribution: alt
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 21:08:56 GMT


=====Begin post for Adria=====
Mark:
     Just goes to show ya.  No matter what we do and say and argue
about around here, the most important thing to remember is that the
person who asks for help gets it.  The person who asks for help is
the most important person around.  We care about you.  When you
tell us how badly you are suffering, we remember either how it
was for us, or what we were told when WE were suffering and
pass it on to you.
     That's what the spirituality of the 12-steps is all about.
Helping another person just because they want help; and without
asking for something in return.  The first 11 steps enable us
to have enough behind and inside to offer to someone else.

Dave:
     How about something for us cross-eyed, left-handed,
buck-toothed, club-footed, hump-backed truckdrivers?
     This is just a joke -- no offense intended.

Tim:
     I never saw Al Franke's portrayal of Stuart Smalley.  Can
you tell me about it?  Humor is the best cure for an angry head.

---Adria (dog@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu)
=====End post for Adria=======
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com (Holly Hendricks)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Reply-To: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com
Organization: DEC
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 02:08:27 GMT


What I've never understood is why most *A'ers wouldn't
*prefer* to end the meeting with the serenity prayer, 
as opposed to the Lord's Prayer.

I thought the program was about serenity and sobriety ;-)

The serenity prayer is inclusive, covers all the bases,
and comes from no single religous tradition.  A few
meetings do use it this way.  After having made proposals
at a few business meetings to substitute the SP for the LP
at the end, though, I realized quite a few people were extremely
attached to the LP!

Holly
who stares at her shoes and sqirms during the L'sP and 
remembers the pain of trying to sit still as a child in church!


--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Holly Hendricks
   Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: millman@indigo.bear.com (Phillip Millman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: AA working in peoples lifes
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:50:19 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

joni.dunlap (joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com) wrote:
: Hi everyone,
: 
: I would like to share with you a great feeling of gratitude that I experienced
: on the 26th. Every year in Sept. the Chicago area has one big open meeting
: called the 52 ond All Chicago Open. The first year that I went to it was 2
: years ago when I was just three days in treatment. They gathered us all up in
: a couple of vans and brought us down to the UIC pavilion and let us loose.
: I walked into this statium and could not believe that their were so many
: recovering alcoholics in the Chicago area (16,000 that year). Well this was
: my first ever AA meeting ( been to one closed NA meeting the night before).  one.
: I was moved. I truly felt for the first time that maybe there was hope for 
: me. The extra added bonus was that I ran into a old friend of mine that I
: used to party with and he all ready had two years in the program.
: 
: So this year was the third time I have been to the open. The number of 
: recovering people that attend this meeting is growing this year they moved
: it to the Rosemont Horizion (which is much bigger than UIC pavilion)
: and the aprox head count was 20,000. I don't know about anyone else but
: but that is more than enough proof for this alcoholic/addict to see that AA
: is working.
: 
: Joni :)


Boy do I ever know that feeling.  One of the things I miss most about chitown
is the OPEN.


--
Phillip Millman					millman@bear.com
The opinions expressed are those of Phillip Millman and not that of 
Bear Stearns & Co. Inc.  I think it is better that way.
Newsgroups: la.general,grads,ca.general
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: New in LA?  Look here.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 18:34:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


In addition to this week's LA Reader, this week's LA Weekly has its
annual "Best of LA" issue. Get several copies of each for friends.
From: jleon@usc.edu (Juan Carlos Leon)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: 386SX MB & 387 for sale!
Date: 26 Sep 1992 11:25:03 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: la
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

For Sale:

- 386SX-16 motherboard, Baby size, on board: 2 serial, 1 paralel port,
  IDE 2FD/2HD controller. 8 Megs max. with SIMMs (0K on board), 
  Phoenix BIOS, C&T NEAT chip set.
  1 year old, with manual & cables for I/O ports.
  $100+S/H.

- Cyrix 387S-16, with diagnostic disk.
  3 months old.
  $60+S/H.

I want to upgrade my system so please make me an offer.

Both: $150+S/H.

Juan Leon
jleon@usc.edu