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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:18:48 -0500
From:         Doris Smith <dorisann@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: random shuffling
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list LITERARY <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

This is absolutely uncanny. I was wondering of the possibilities of doing
this only this morning.  I wonder if it is possible to do what you have
described here.
Doris
dorisann@tenet.edu


On Sat, 25 Jul 1992, MM wrote:
>
> I have noticed that some bulletin boards include instructions for setting
> things up for interactive messages.  I have no idea what sort of thing is
> possible or how, but conceivably, people could send lines taken from any-
> where, including their own heads, send them (with a command to conceal),
> and you would receive this concealed message, add your own line, then mail
> this combined message to the next address; at some predetermined time the
> contgents would be opened and published to the group. An e-mail version
> of the game many of you have probably played, maybe in a classroom, in which
> you write you line, then fold down the paper so that the next person can't
> read what you have written, and it goes around the room until you are out of
> paper. Seems like it should be feasible to do a version of that on a board.
> Michael B.
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:47:50 CDT
From:         A575CCR <A575CCR@SEMOVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Herman Melville

Glad to see you actually enjoyed _Moby Dick_.  It seems to be
one of those books whereupon either the reader, being forced
to gorge himself upon it, simply regurgitates it back out again or
relishes it like some delectable exotic food.  Supposedly, it and
the KingJames Bible are the two books found in the most households.
Like dogs, I suppose, some people like to eat, regurgitate, and then
eat again.
   Anyway, I ran across an article last summer which I think can be
applied to _Moby Dick_.  The article was out of 'The Texas Journal
of Literature' and it was by Donald Kartiganer, a professor of English
Lit. at the U. of Washington in Seatle.  It centrally deals with
Kierkegarrds _Fear & Trembling_ and Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_, yet
I've found that it applies to a number of other works; works which I've
always privately considered to be the best accomplishments in literature
ever (which I will refrain from mentioning here).  The topic of the
article deals with the divided protaganists in the aforementioned books,
but this criticism can also be moved over to the divided protaganist
in _Moby Dick_; the Ahab/Ishmael thing.  It's primarily a type of
reader-response or reception criticism, but Kartiganer himself considers
it to embody some of the concepts of Deconstructionism.
    It's an interesting theory about the divided protaganists though,
discussing the confusion of identities between thetwo and the eventual
movement of these two identies over into one; the ultimate point of
understanding and the crux of the entire work. It's when Ishmael
actually becomes Ahab; when Marlow actually becomes Kurtz, when
Jack Burden becomes Willie Stark, etc.
    The name of the article was simply 'The Divided Protaganist'. I
believe the journal was pretty recent, either 1987 or 89.  It's an
interesting theory and quite useful, though I'm not saying you should
apply it like some multi-purpose hammer to every literary work you
should come across.
   Kartiganer, the last I heard, had accepted a teaching position at
the U. of Miss., Oxford.  He is also a Faulkner scholar.

Ken Keesee
Philosophy & English
Southeast Mo. U.
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Posted-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:33:54 EDT
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:33:54 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Anna again
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Tim, you make a good point about sexual freedom in society, because in the
society of that day, men almost universally indulged in premarital sex
usually but not always with prostitutes. This was completely accepted by
society--but of course the double standard was firmly in place.  A married
man was almost expected to have a mistress, but society was ready with
the scarlet A if a woman should dare to behave in the same way.
	This reminds me of the theme of Tolstoy's Resurrection, which is
not his greatest book but is well worth reading if you like Tolstoy.  It
has to do with a man's feelings toward his romantic/sexual past--I'll say
no more than that.
Michael B.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:45:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: poetry

so start already!  what is this, Differance in action?

"And Mm."  *Finnegans Wake*, 115.
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:02:00 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: suspense
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Date:       Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:14:26 EDT
> From:       MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>

> Tom, it occurs to me that on first reading, suspense would inevitably be
> a big part of the reading experience. How could it not be, since as readers
> we always wonder what will happen.

Indeed... but why then, do publishers seem to try so hard to
undermine the impact of their books?  I have to make a conscious,
deliberate effort *not* to read material on the dust jacket (or the
back cover of a paperback); I find that in almost all cases, too much
is given away to suit me.  For similar reasons, I always put off
reading the Introduction to something until after I have finished
that something.
                                        --Tom
-----------------------------------------------
Tom Frenkel
Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center
161 Ft. Washington Ave.     DAP-1310
New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of
      my employer >>>
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:12:58 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      The Reeking Monk Mystery

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: gs0383%springb.bitnet@siucvmb.siu.e

GE> What really puzzled me is the part where the elder's body
GE> begins to reek prematurely.  I don't understand what Dosteovsky
GE> is trying to show -


Well, it shows why there is a tremendous effort by spin doctors
today to lower expectations about mere mortal (and lesser)
politicians.  I think it was not premature, but perfectly
normal, that decomposure should proceed as it did in the cell
on a warm day.  The political enemies of the deceased jumped
on the occasion of normalcy to discredit him, as a miracle
was to be expected if indeed he were holy.  Perhaps the
crucifixion proceeded under like circumstances, with Judas
expecting the leader to be able to free himself from hordes
of Romans if indeed he was the Messiah.  If not, well -
--- eecp 1.45 LM2
 * Origin: Fort Knox  (1:216/509)
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:11:20 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      re: Jeremy Irons as Kafka
Comments: To: finkelst@SIAM.ORG, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Sue,

          I think you're underestimating the genius of Welles simply
          because he worked in the time of "starry-eyed Hollywood."
          Older films (like classic novels) can be surprisingly on the
          mark when it comes to the human condition.  Orson Welles
          interpreting Kafka with one old movie camera could probably
          do a better job than Zefferelli with state of the art
          equipment.  Like reading an Austen or Hardy novel, an old
          movie may require that we strain a little more to suspend
          disbelief due to antiquated language or techniques.  We
          should both watch the film and compare reactions when we've
          both seen it.  I agree with you, however, regarding
          Olivier's _Hamlet_.  It did seem melodramatic to me and
          almost comic at times, although his _Henry V_ is just as
          good (though totally different) as Branagh's version.

          Has anyone seen Olivier's BBC production of _King Lear_?
          It was filmed at Stonehenge a few years before his death.
          It is too powerful to watch often, but I still felt the need
          to buy a copy.  It's the best production of the play I've
          ever seen.

          Dave L.
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:47:20 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Herman Melville
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

On Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:49:23 CST
Melanie Willis <GS0383%SPRINGB.bitnet@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
said:
> Has anyone there read Moby Dick?  I read this last year, mainly because I
 didn'
> t have anything else to read at the time, and I was surprised to find how much
> I enjoyed it.  I started having dreams about being on a whaling ship.  I did
 fi
> nd parts of it tedious, such as when he went on and on explaining the
 different
>  kinds of whales and the killing and cleaning process.  But I'll never forget
 t
> he thrill I felt when at the end they finally came upon the great whale, and
 Ca
> ptain Ahab calls out, "Are you feeling brave, boys?"  (Or was it "lads"?) I am
> truly shocked that this book was not appreciated during Melville's lifetime.
 I
>  don't understand it.  How sad for him.  Please respond if you also enjoyed
 thi
> s book.

I've read _MD_ several times, with memories of being enthralled by
it, but also, I must admit, of feeling the allegory too heavy-handed
(kind of hazy now, but like when Ishmael, as he's embarking on the
_Pequod_, meets a prophet-like figure named Elijah (get it? get
it?)...

I remember chapters like "The Town-Ho's Story", an absolutely
marvelous (IMHO) tale set amidst the novel, but with no real
relationship to it!  As if _MD_, being a whole universe unto itself,
can contain just about anything...

If you want to read more Melville, I would recommend _Benito Cereno_,
which I think the greatest short novel (long short story? novella??)
ever written by man (or woman).
                                                --Tom
-----------------------------------------------
Tom Frenkel
Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center
161 Ft. Washington Ave.     DAP-1310
New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of
      my employer >>>
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Name: Christopher Mark Conn
Organization: SAS Institute Inc., Austin, Texas
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:11:01 CDT
From:         Christopher Mark Conn <sascmc@UNX.SAS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Richard Brautigan
Comments: To: literary <literary%ucf1vm.bitnet@unx.sas.com>
              92 8:45 pm

>
> Tom: re Brautigan's suicide:  he shot himself, but I don't know the details.
> The paper just said he was found after several weeks, so presumably he was
> alone at the time.  That would have been maybe 5-8 years ago.
> -Ian
>

I was sad to hear about his death too... I think he was my first favorite
author (Harold Robbins doesn't count). My favorite book was _The Abortion:
An Historical Romance, 1966_... I read it over and over again, there was
something about it that just absorbed me. I read almost all of his other
works, which were mostly poetry.

But it seemed like he started losing ground when the 60's were over...
the last book I read of his (can't remember the name) was a real downer
and I lost track of him until I heard about his suicide. In later years
Tom Robbins took his place as my favorite author... Robbins had some of
the same sense of whimsy but he was (and is) a lot more positive.

  ___                          ___
//               ||\  /|     //
||               || \/ |     ||
\\___ hristopher ||    | ark \\___ onn                       sascmc@unx.sas.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dead Runners Society
PO Box 202292 Austin, Texas 78720-2292 (512) 258-5171 X3369 FAX: (512) 258-3906
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:44:02 -0500
From:         Eric Baum <PBR_EVB@FANDMA.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Gould

>Thanks, Ian; the Gould book sounds exactly like what i need right now . . .
>do you think it might work in a writing class (to fuel discussion, at least?).
>
>MMcDonald

Absolutely. Plus the benefit of demonstrating that science can be written
with grace, eloquence and humor without being watered down. An excellent
argument for writing across the curriculum if we can foster another Gould.

Eric
*************************************************************************
E. V. Baum
Production Coordinator
Franklin & Marshall College
Lancaster, PA
PBR_EVB@ADMIN.FANDM.EDU
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:33:02 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject: re: Random shuffling
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          There's actually a poetry form (Japanese, I think) called
          "renga," where a group of ideally three people alternate
          writing lines of verse, and where only the last line written
          is visible to the prospective writer.  This way, there is
          some thread (albeit tenuous) of a story to follow, but the
          effects can be interesting as not all of the story is
          available at any one time.

          Susan Finkelstein (who forgot to sign her last message
          titled "Contemporary opinions")
          -----------------
          finkelst@siam.org
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Posted-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 23:28:03 EDT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:28:03 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      it would be madness
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

but kmr has quickly solved the main obstacle; we need not wait until a compli-
cated technical question is resolved. Yes, quite true.  The point? Well, in
theory, and there's quite a bit of theory, language gets used in the same
way and phrasing gets stale, the same meanings get made, time after time.
Ramdom (?) restructurings produce striking re-combinations of words. Some
practitioners believe that new meanings can be derived from chance combi-
nations; some even believe that the future can be predicted.  My own ex-
perience with this game is that it has often seemed, uncannily, like the
writers of the separate lines had to be sharing info, even though they
were certainly not. Theoretically we end up with a poem--I guess poem in-
stead of story so there's that much more freedom. No one needs to be con-
cerned with advancing the plot.  The sentence, or line, need not resemble
poetry in any way, neither old style nor new, but then again it can if you
want it to.  The line need not be original. You can take it off the wall,
or off the top of your head.  The more spontaneous the better.  The result
is usually fun to read, if nothing else. After all that, I can hardly do
less than volunteer to be editor.  Thirty lines per poem? Let's try that.
The first thirty lines will compose the poem.  I will be alerted by the
subject "Surrealism," that an entry has arrived, and I will store them in
the order that they arrive. Then I will publish under "Results".  If your
line is late for the cut, I guess I'll have to do a shorter follow-up.
It is 11:30:56, or was, PM. Thank-you kmr. Oh yes, please send your spon-
taneous entries to :    mbm@pacscl.uarc.upenn.edu
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Posted-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 12:12:20 EDT
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:12:20 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Their Eyes Were Watching God
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	Right up there with the other masterpieces!

Michael B.
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 02:15:48 CDT
From:         "Mark Banaszak (s946573.umslvma)" <S946573@UMSLVMA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Hester's Murder

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I certainly profited from my
first, superficial, high school readings, because not only did I read those
same things a second, and often third and fourth time, but if I'd never read
them I'd be more of an idiot and even more unexplicably dissatisfied with our
existence.
mb
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:25:37 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Jeremy Irons as Kafka
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          After reading _The Trial_, I was really excited to find out
          that the movie "Kafka" (yep, starring Jeremy Irons) was
          playing in one of the art theaters in town.  A definite
          must-see.  The film incorporates many of the novels and
          short stories, along with nonfictional aspects of Kafka's
          life.  It is not a documentary, however.  It is sharp and
          disturbing and bleak.  Typical.  Anyway,  it might be in the
          video stores by now.  Run out and rent it!

          Susan Finkelstein
          finkelst@siam.org
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:09:00 PDT
From:         Michael Bruce McDonald <MCDONALD@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Richard Brautigan

VMS, i rather doubt that Brautigan's suicide can be reduced to a matter of
being in his mid-forties and fearful to be seen as a "lightweight hippie."

There have been several times in my life where mental anguish has filled me
with so much despair that life no longer seemed worth it, and while there
were always several dramatic forces shaping that anguish, i know that there
was also much more to it than i could ever relate, or know; haven't most of
us experienced crises in which suicide seemed one of the better options, and
then *subsequently* wondered precisely what we were so distressed about, and
why?  I prefer to think that the forces shaping any suicide are a bit too
complex to reduce to a sentence, or even many pages; look how many pages
Tolstoy takes to prepare the ground for Anna's suicide, and doesn't a certain
mystery linger still over *her* deed of self-destruction?

M McDonald
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:40:30 CDT
From:         steve <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>

Texts about writing:

ASPECTS OF THE NOVEL by E.M. Forster has always been good.  State of the
art?  I don't know.

Steve Harris
spam@tamvm1
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Posted-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:30:31 EDT
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:30:31 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      books for freshman writing
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I missed whether you were looking for writing texts or simply books to read
and talk about, or both. It just came into my mind how a work like Jim
Carrol's Basketball Diaries shows how both personal experience and the
language of adolescence and the street can be crafted into excellent
prose. Of course it could get you into trouble with your school or your
students, nowadays hard to say which, and would need to be balanced, obviously
with a different kind of prose. My personal view is that freshman writers
should not be subjected to any kind of textbook. Writing is not school or
a textbook thing ultimately, so why let these books drag a great thing down?
But I missed the beginning of the discussion, so briefly fill me in?
Michael.
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