From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice)
Subject: Re: Believers: What Would Make You Not Believe In GOD?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:08:00 GMT

Gee, Ray, so few people on the net seem to mean it when they sign a
posting. I get a kick out of your "Sincerely." I think you actually
mean it.

In article <fWf=m-A@engin.umich.edu>, 
ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes...

>In article <9JAN199303004506@utarlg.uta.edu> 
>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes:
>>>house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house) writes:
>>>>"Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>Also, since a fair number of god believers also read this newsgroup, 
>>>>>I am curious what would make them no longer believe that god existed.

>>Speaking as a believer, it's easy. Just simply chose not to believe.
>>GOD won't stop you. GOD will help if you chose to believe though.
> 
> One might perhaps 'choose' to abandon an opinion, but most theists claim
>that they are a lot more certain than that about 'God's' existence. Could
>you 'choose' not to believe that you yourself exist? Could you 'choose'
>not to believe that 2+2=4?

Sorry, chose, choose, lose, loose -- give me trouble. I'd change English
if I could figure out how. :)

In the long run, my self is least likely to exist. As to 2+2=4, that 
depends on the type arithmetic being used. Other geometries condidered. 

>[Atheist say, "show x, y, or z & I'll believe"]

Which is like saying, Skeptics doubt till shown a plausible system??

>>Such as? I'm not sure there is anything anyone could show me including 
>>miracles, irrefutable proof, or heaven that would make me believe. I
>>don't think there is anyone but GOD who could make me believe, either.
>>And GOD won't if I don't want to.
> 
> Well, if someone walked up to me, put their hand on my forehead, and
>cried, "In the name of __________ you now have 20/20 vision without
>glasses!" and had it come true, I would be inclined to pay them some
>attention, at least about whatever they used to fill in the _________.
 ^^^^^^^^^
Heck of a way to break the ice, I reckon. They'd probably get my 
attention to. That's hardly sufficient reason to even suspect _________
is GOD or the Messiah, or some agent come at their bidding.

>>I'd have to trust my mind or my self for some x, y and z to be 
>>sufficient. And I don't trust my self or anything but trivial matters.
                                        ^^-- "on" 
> Well, I guess some of us have different estimations of our own
>abilities. Even then, I don't see where I have any choice but to
>make do with whatever abilities I have.

Choice to me seems to be different than ability or mind. For instance
one can simply choose to be. In the instant, such a choice is experienced.

"Making do with only one's own abilities" makes it kinda hard for
others to care for you, yes??

>>>Theists say, "It is impossible to conceive that God does not exist.  
>>
>>It's easy -- get drunk. Go to sleep. Have a stroke. etc.
>>Merely a mental thing.
> 
> Ah, but what would make you think that this conception was *true*,
>if anything?

Not "what," rather "who."  I've related my own experience. The stroke
was minor, but enough to allow me to realize that I could easily lose
my mind. Make that "loose." Or vice versa. No big deal. We do so every day.

(I was right the first time.)

>[deletions]
>>Everything human falls apart, since it's part of nature (*).
>>
>>(* -- Isn't that the second law of thermodynamics or something?)
> 
> Get a good book on Thermodynamics. The 2nd law of thermo is perhaps
>the most misunderstood scientific concept ever.

My personal library includes:

	_Fundamentals of Classical Thermodynamics_ (3rd ed.)
	by Wylen and Sonntag (c) '86  and
	
	_The Second Law_
	Henry A. Bent (c) '65

I like the picture facing the title page of the second book,
which shows a little guy running up a hill with a round boulder
bounding upward after him.  That other hill must've been bigger.
	
>>The easiest way to be a believer is just do it like a kid.
>>Unbelief for a child is harder, but still just a matter of doubting.
> 
> Little kids also believe in Santa Claus if they're told to.

Which influences their actions greatly. In some sense, (without 
reflecting on GOD), their belief influences their actions.

Purely a mental thing. Been hard to prove. Or is that proove?

>[deletions]
>>And even Judas repented (Matthew 27:3). So maybe even Hitler did before
>>he blew his brains out. (Or however he commited suicide, if you can
>>believe the historical propaganda.) And maybe despite his twisted brain, 
>>Jeffrey Dahmer believes as well. Imagine that, Dahmer and Hitler saved, 
>>while all the disbelievers damn themselves. 
> 
> I don't see any reasonable option but not to believe. I am quite honest
>about this, though many theists insist that I must be mistaken about my
>own thoughts. 

 ^^^--- Imagine that too.

>If God chooses to damn me because of that, then so be it.
>I wouldn't want to hang out with someone like that, frankly.

Ok. Fair warning. I think this will considered "preachy."

My belief is that GOD loves everyone, each and individually,
and that the only way anyone can be damned, is to turn away
from GOD, which they do themself. I think some people do that
so committedly that, they never would even try to reach out
to GOD, ever again -- "true" damnation. Even when GOD tries
to get their attention. 

To me that would either be like; Placing my own judgement above all
else. Or never being willing to risk anything. Or simply not caring
enough to try. 

End of "preachy." Though I don't me it to be. It's how I see it.

>>Your choice. Just simply turn away from GOD if you don't want to 
>>believe. It's even easier to turn back.
> 
> I don't think there's anything to turn away *from*, don't you see?

What I see is that beyond this screen, and all the intervening distance,
on the other side of the words, and the energy impulses, and the light,
not only in the machines and systems in between, but also those things
in my brain... you are there Ray. And I here. I hope.

When I turn off the computer, I'll still believe in you. To me all of 
"it" is merely that which separates us. We share it, nature and flesh. 
But we, you and I, (I and Thou), are present as are so many others, in 
a continuum of "It." And One totally present, not us. Even losing one's
mind, or body, or will, can't change that -- we are. 

Reasonably, perhaps not. My faith is otherwise.

Reasonably, I could be just a bunch of hackers, pretending to be one
person. Personality-wise, I'm not sure that's not close to true.

I don't have to see it only.

Preachy warning. Which is why GOD is present with me through Bible,
Nature, and even the precense of a child. Others aren't in the way.
End preachy. { I'm guessing, about what is and isn't preachy. %-}

>Sincerely,
> 
>Ray Ingles

   |
-- J --
   |
   |  Stephen   "I believe and maybe"
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