From: eshin@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: HALLOW'EEN
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 00:58:35 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

>>lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley) writes:
: In article <Bv6yKn.6nr@ddsw1.mcs.com> eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
: 
: >[stuff about various festivals tenuously connected to November]
: 
: >Druid and Celtic tribes of Britain 
: 
: Oh? and were the druid tribes conquered by the celts, or vice-versa?


The Druid refers to: a member of a priesthood in ancient Gaul, Britain, and
Ireland who are said to have studied natural sciences, prophesied through
priestly sacrifices, and acted as judges and teachers but who later appeared
in Irish and Welsh sagas and Christian legends as magicians and wizards.

While the Celtic tribes of Britain was intended to identify the Celt from
those who were:
a member of a division of the early Indo-European peoples in Iron-Age and
pre-Roman Europe distributed from the British Isles and Spain to Asia Minor
and in part absorbed into the Roman Empire as Britons, Gauls, Boii,
Galatians or Celtiberians.

I spoke not of any Druid tribes. You obviously were not reading in any
effort to understand what was written only with an impetious prejudice to
criticize and read in what was not there to begin with.


: 
>>: Excuse me, but this is a load of old crap!<<

Precicely what traditions and superstitions are! But then again you seem to
have a problem accepting those you have not heard of or are unwilling to
accept.


Addenda on the Jack-0'-lantern:

Though originally identified with the phosphorescent light frequently moving
in the air over marshy places; and the corposant or will-o-wisp that
retreats from those who try to reach or follow it; the  jack-0'-lantern was
also often called ignis fatuus, foolish fire" the implication being that
only a fool would follow it,and that the light is foolish to flee from a
fool.
In Lancashire folk speech, [ethnocentrict enough for you?] it is called
either Jack-o'-lantern or Peg-o'-lantern, according to the local concept of
its sex. The Jack-o'-lantern of German folklore, especially in Lower Saxony,
is the *Dickepoten*. This is often the soul of someone condemned thus to
wander for having moved or disregarded a boundary mark. In Ireland the
phenomenon is variously known as *teine sionniic*,[fox fire; *teine side*,
[fairy fire]; *Sean na gealaige*,[Jack of the bright light]; *Liam na
lasoige*, [William of the little flame], etc. and it is commonly believed to
be the wandering soul of one who has been refused entrance into both heaven
and hell. He often terrifies travelers; sometimes he warns them. He is
famous for leading them astray, but has been known to direct those in
trouble.


: 
: If you want to read up the origins of the pumpkin lantern drag out
: your copy of the Silver Bough and look up :
: 
: guizing or guizers
: sowens


You also seem to have a problem with spelling as with references.

To begin with there is no "guizers" in the Golden Bough.

I quote "The Golden Bough" by Sir J.G.Frazer part vii, vol 1;pg268

"In Lerwick, the capital of the Shetland Islands, `on Christmas Eve, the
fourth of January,--for the old style is still observed--the children fo a
*guizing*, that is to say, they distinguish themselves in the most fantastic
and gaudy costumes, parade the streets, and infest the houses and shops,
begging for the wherewithal to carry on their Christmas amusements..."

There is no such word "sowens" the word which perhaps comes close is "Sower"

Again I quote The Golden Bough, part vii, vol 1; pg 107:

"In Brabant on the same Sunday, (first Sunday in Lent) down to the begining
of the nineteenth century, women and men disguised in female attire used to
go with burning torches to the fields, where they danced and sang comic
songs for the purpose, as they alloeged, of driving away "the wicked sower,"
who is mentioned in the Gospel for the day."

Now, perhaps you are only familiar with an abridged version of the thirteen
volume book by Sir James Frazer, but regardless, how dare you stand to
criticize when my reporting is no more alleged than that of Frazer's reports
and then have the audacity to give bogus references that have nothing to do
whatsoever with the subject you are making "alleged" reference to?

Perhaps you should go back to school to learn how to read the English
language or get out of a cockney enviorment to where you might find a bit more
illuminating rapport with  the language that you read so you prevent in the
future making such a stupid fool of yourself!

>>: That should do for a start. <<

Ditto!!!



>>: Now, go away and read up some sources before mixing up a similar
: mish-mash!<<

It seems obvious by your bogus references that perhaps it is you who should
go back to the library and do a little clarification in your muddled
deorganization and maybe just stay there out of sight, sparing us your
clap-trap adjectives for want to be heard.

(smile)



>>>: One last point. Look up diffusion theory. Recently (over the last
: thirty years, say) the notion that all culture came from the
: mysterious near East and diffused out to the brutish, primitive areas
: of Europe has been undergoing some setbacks. Or hadn't you noticed?<<


Unfortunately you are a very good example of barbaric presumption that
possibly needs a bit to be yet civilized....


>>: >Many more are the traditions that we have inherited from the Irish and
 Scotch
: 
: Scots. Scotch is cheap whisky consumed by foreigners ;-)<<

It seems that Sir James G. Frazer agrees with me though. In part vii, vol 1,
pg227 he states, and I quote:

"The Scotch Highlanders have a special name *Samhanach* (derived from
^^^^^^^^^^^
Samhain, "All-hallows") for the dreadful bogies that go about that night
stealing babies and committing other atrocities."


Perhaps you are too accustomed to cheap novels to really tell the difference
in spelling..or are you just a rural person trying to be sophisticated to a
foreign audience??

Eshin-Fun



: 
: --
: Chris Lilley
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
: Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
: Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
: Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan