HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s902211@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Zoran Kalenic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: WHO'S THE BIGGER NAZI?
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:07:56 GMT


dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic) writes:

[...]

>You make me puke!  The only debatable thing right now is how are Serbs going
>to pull themselves out of the shit they got themselves into and regain the
>trust and respect of the international comunity.  Probably the frist step is 

"One of Hitler's generals, Lothar Rendilic, who was in the area where the crimes
were committed, estimated that in the first year of the existence of the puppet
state of Croatia at least a half million Orthodox Serbs were massacred, and
that many others were killed in subsequent years." Gekaempft Gesiegt Geschlagen
(Heidelberg, 1952), pp. 161-62.

Mr Matic, if you can really compare such a holocaust with those events in
ex-yu, then you are one sick person.. that explains the puke.  My initial point
was that there is no comparison.

[...]

>Reagrds,
>--- Davor

Zoran Kalenic.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8387 soc.culture.europe:7971 soc.culture.turkish:9561
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: newgroup Yugoslavia???!@!@$?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 18:00:54 CDT
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

  Yugoslavia is dead, as should be this newgroup.  I say that a Croatian 
newgroup should be setup, and that the Yugoslav or Serbo-
Slav newgroup should be dismantled. If people wish to discuss matter 
conserning the former Yugoslavia or the Balkans in general, then a 
"Balkans" newgroups should be created.  The name, "Yugoslavia" is a 
insult to every Croatian, Albanian, Muslim, etc.. Such a country does not 
exist anymore, nor should this newgroup.  If the Serbians fascists 
complain, well, huh, let them put together a Serbian newsgroup.  They 
should stop hiding behind the skirt of their  Yugoslav "Kurva". I forgot, 
they'd rather be called Yugoslavs instead of Serbians.  I pitty you.  
No, I take that back.  I have no pitty.  Instead, I curse you and your 
leaders, from Milosevic to Draskovic and Seslj.  You shall eventualy pay 
for your crimes, by diging the graves that will be filled with the bodies 
of your people.  For you have done this to Croatia, and 
Bosna-Hercegovina.  

Usveta ce biti nasa!!!!!!

Zivjela Hrvatska 
       i
Za Dom Spremni !


--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Master Untrue Totally Lying Unit: Take a course in Math
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 02:55:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Panos Tamamidis asks why other Turks don't condemn Mutlu's behavior.
Many have in e-mail to me. When I asked one why he didn't condemn
Mutlu publicly, he replied that Mutlu had threatened him and others,
and that many Turks are afraid of their immigration status.

Since Mutlu is on my kill list because of his behavior, I won't read
any responses he may make to this post, nor reply to them.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8371 soc.culture.greek:8254
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:43:20 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep1.154536.1915@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras) writes:
>In <BtwM9I.EB6@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>  All of this is completely immaterial.   The only relevant question
>>  is this:  If a nontrivial number of people (i.e., "nation sized"
>>  whatever that means, but let's say a million or so since there
>>  are other countries with such populations) in some locale feel
>>  that they represent a distinct enough culture to want to form
>>  their own nation, why shouldn't they have the right to do so?
>>  And why shouldn't they have the right to call it whatever they
>>  want?
>
>Greece is opposed to the use of the name "Macedonia", not
>because of the name, but of what this implies. Bulgaria
>recognizes a coutry under this name, but no Macedonian nation,
>etc.
>
>Perhaps somebody can explain, why Germany is opposed to the use
>of the word ECU for the EEC currency or even why Copywright
>Laws, etc  exist (e.g. why can't I set up a company in the USA called
>"Microsoft"). Think of the implications.

  Ok, I'll bite:  what *are* the implications?

  Actually there are plenty of companies with the same name; in
  the US the courts typically only object if it appears that 
  there will be confusion or if one company appears to be
  deliberately trying to gain commercial advantage by exploiting
  the reputation of another company.

  And even this doesn't apply to place names.  I'm posting from
  Chelmsford, Massachusetts, a place *deliberately* named after
  a town in England.  In fact on a recent visit to England I was
  struck by the great many towns there with the same names as 
  towns around where I live: Bristol, Portsmouth, Essex, Plymouth,
  etc.   This part of the US is known as "New England" and we've
  never received a complaint from the British Consulate.   The majority
  of US states have Springfields.   The state of Maine was formerly
  part of the state of Massachusetts.  If they get fed up with
  the way things are going in the US and decide to secede from
  the Union, and adopt the historical name "Massachusetts" why
  should I care?   Maybe there would be confusion, but we'd probably
  learn to live with it, and maybe we could even work it to our
  advantage with cutesy advertising slogans to bring in tourists.
  Certainly not worth fighting over. 

  How about New Macedonia (as in New Mexico) or North Macedonia (as
  in North Korea, North Dakota, West Virginia)?


---peter

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: The New Greek Phobia (phobos): [ Part 2 from 5 ]
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:44:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep1.070133.20865@sunbim.be> sk@sunbim.be () writes:
>
>The Greek ideology is busy printing luxurious leaflets
>on the topic "falsification of the historical truth",
>in which, with a careful selection of
>historical facts, each time they want to prove two
>things - that Alexander The Great was a Greek and that
>the Macedonian Nation was "Tito's invention", and as
>well the language.

  The larger question about this rather tiresome little topic is
  this:  What difference does it make what Alexander the Great's 
  nationality was or who invented either the region or the name?
  All of this is completely immaterial.   The only relevant question
  is this:  If a nontrivial number of people (i.e., "nation sized"
  whatever that means, but let's say a million or so since there 
  are other countries with such populations) in some locale feel
  that they represent a distinct enough culture to want to form
  their own nation, why shouldn't they have the right to do so?
  And why shouldn't they have the right to call it whatever they
  want?
 
  If the people in Macedonia/Skopjie (or the people in Quebec or
  Scotland or Vermont) want to be independent why shouldn't they 
  have that right?

  This is not the 19th century when it was considered cool to 
  either rule vast tracts of land and diverse peoples who didn't
  want to be ruled by others (e.g., the British Empire), or to 
  fight wars to try to prevent people who wanted to rule themselves
  from doing so (e.g., The American Revolution or Civil War).  A
  huge percentage of the conflicts around the world today are the
  result of people trying to rule other people who want to rule
  themselves (e.g., in the Balkans, the Kurds, the Palestinians,
  various conflicts on the Indian subcontinent, etc.)   In every
  one of these places the only civilized thing to do is for the
  UN to sponsor a plebiscite and for all parties to agree to
  abide by the result.

  Why would any rational person or nation WANT to rule some group
  of people who don't want to be ruled by them?   Not only is it 
  mean-spirited, but it's generally more trouble than it's worth.  

  (I'm reading a *great* book just now: _Queen Victoria's Little Wars_
  by Byron Farwell -- I'll review it when I'm done)

 
---peter


Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
From: mirsip@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Ivan Popstefanija)
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was:  Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 01:25:55 GMT

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8433 soc.culture.greek:8344
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 2 Sep 92 09:00:00 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <5980@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, by lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov):
> In article <3891@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:
>  
>>>         MACEDONIA: HISTORY AND REALITY
> 
>>In the meantime, it would be a pity to let the group get clogged up with
>>emotional denunciations of someone's fantasies!
> 
> Well, a free forum needs to hear all points of views. Maybe such views will
> help the readers understand what was taught as a Macedonian history ...

That's not my point. We all have our lunatics, in every nation, and we
treat them as lunatics. What I needed to know is whether this is a set
of views which other Macedonians regard as nutty. If so, fine, the
proper thing to do is pass it over in silence - we are all vulnerable to
misunderstandings generated by loudmouthed idiots on our own side. But
if this garbage is seriously the basis of the Macedonian case, then my
reaction is that we can forget it - the case isn't even worth thinking
about.

I am still waiting for a response from other supporters of the
Macedonian case. Before long, I will begin to draw conclusions from the
deafening silence.

Richard Wallace. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: ARK/Zagreb Address
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:19:07 GMT

For those who wish to respond to the earlier
message describing Croatian War Relief
Needs, please contact Wam at the
 Anti War Campaign in Zagreb

You can reach him via e-mail WamKat@gn.apc.org 
or ARK@gn.apc.org

or via fax: +38-41-271143
or if your are lucky per phone +38-41-422495
or by snailmail: ARK, Tkalciceva 38/II, Zagreb, Croatia


He may have a new e-mail address.  If you try and
fail to reach him by e-mail, please contact me
by e-mail and I will search for the new address
for you.   susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8219 soc.culture.bulgaria:1199 soc.culture.greek:7970
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:43:53 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: buis@buengc.bu.edu

In article <BtLxnt.Mw0@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
(Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:
>>
>>When Noel Malcolm a journalist from "The Spectator" was in 
>>North Greece he wrote the following:
>
>>  Sitting at a cafe in a Slav village near
>>  Florina [Lerin], in northern Greece,
>>  surrounded by people talking in the Slav
>>  Macedonian language, I pondered this minor
>>  miracle. "They say we don't exist," said
>>  one of them; "but tell me, do I look like a
>>  ghost?"
>
>   Then, ask Mr. Malcom to visit the University of Illinois.  I could ask
>   my friends in the chinize student association to bring their members,
>   about 4,000 , and who knows, Mr. Malcolm may get the impression that he
>   is in China...
>


	I don't know whether Mr. Malcom will get the impression that he is 
	in China, but, for sure, he will get the impression that there 
	are a lot of Chinese people arround (or, as Mr. Lalonis would say, 
        "several bilinguals who speak Chinese languages but consider themselves
	to be American").


	Regards,

		Lou








Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8222 soc.culture.turkish:9314 soc.culture.greek:7973 soc.culture.europe:7690
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Conflict could lay foundations for Islamic state in Europe.
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:18:40 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Milan Pavlovic (pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU) writes:
>Judging by your reply, it seems you didn't read the article I posted with
>much care. The article is from "The Daily Telegraph" , not the "Guardian".

Actually, I - yawn - read it, but I didn't find it very relevant.
Some thin soup boiled on that Alija Izbetgovic wrote something in
1970, and then spiced with unfounded allegations. I asked about real
fundamentalists, like those in Serbia who with a knee-jerk reaction
say "Serbian cradle" when you suggest that Kosovo belongs to those 
who live there.

>Tell me, Erland, are you of Albanian descent?

No. Are you?

>And if you are not, why don't
>you show me, the Skopjans, and the Greeks just how much you care about the
>Albanians, by for example adopting an Albanian, instead of continuosly
>criticizing the Serbs, Skopjans, and Greeks for their treatment of the
>Albanian minority. Then when you actually see what it's like living next to
>an Albanian come back to us and tell us how it felt...

You are an ugly racist. I am convinced that there good Albanians and
there are bad Albanians. I am convinced that there are bad Serbs (like
you) and good Serbs (thanks to among other Vreme). Are you?

If you accept racial discussions as part of civilized discourse, Milan,
you should be very very quiet, because today few of peoples in the world
has come out as so bad and so evil it is the Serbs for what they have
done in Kosovo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia and other places (e.g. Hrtkovci).

Now, I clearly want to stress that in difference to Milan Pavlovic
I don't subscribe to generalizing statements about persons of a
certain people, and that the paragraph above does not represent
my opinion on the Serbian people. (But well some of the Serbian leaders
and "soldiers".)
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8412 soc.culture.greek:8305 soc.culture.bulgaria:1287
From: armagan@sassafras (Armagan Ozdinc)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 23,455 from 2,767,344 ]
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:58:23 GMT
Reply-To: armagan@prc.unisys.com
Organization: Paramax Systems

In article <522.2116.uupcb@factory.com>, michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
|> 
|> SK>today it is Turkey that is emerging as the strategic power-
|> SK>base of the whole region...Hence, ..a Greek government
|>    Why do you feel so? US interest in SE Europe has diminished since the
|>    end of the cold war. If the cold war was still on, would there be
|>    such an apathy about Bosnia today? What's new that Turkey has to offer
|>    the west now that the USSR is gone?

Do not look at the current situation just from the military perspective.
Turkiye today is the gate for the Western world to access to the markets
of the former USSR Turkic republics. The Gulf War also showed us the
ongoing strategic importance of Turkiye in the Middle East. Stop your
cheap shots on Turkiye.

|>    Many Greek and albanian officials are advocating the creation of a Greek-
|>    Albanian free trade zone, and others are looking towards Albania
|>    joining the EEC. 

I cannot imagine close relations between Albania and Greece in the near
future. Albania's current warm relations with Turkiye and their appeal
for economic and military assistance from Turkiye disproves what you
said above. Albanian officials made it public in their various statements
that they were located in a very hostile environment, and the only country
in the region they can trust is Turkiye.

How are you going to justify Albania's, the poorest country in Europe,
entry into the EEC while you guys are denying the entry for the other
countries much better qualified than Albania? Stop your cheap politics.

|> Michael.
|> 

Macedonia is for Macedonians!! Greece get your hands off from the
independent Macedonia and her free people.

----------------------------------------------------------------
 ARMAGAN A. OZDINC
________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Biomed Dept I.S.L.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: 3 Sep 92 11:50:41 GMT
Reply-To: buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis)
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: College of Engineering, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <BtzDus.J2L@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
(Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>mirsip@risky.ecs.umass.edu (Ivan Popstefanija) writes:
>
>>  A state with garanteed individual rights  and  NOT garanteed rights
>>for nations is, IMO, solution for multi ethnic society, but that is not
>>the way the Serbs, Croats or Slovenians see it. What can one do?  
>
> Leave them alone.  They were living without such problems in the past.


	No, that was the CAUSE of most of the problems in the past! 

	IMO, national states are, by definition, unjust, unfair
	solution for a multiethnic society. 

	Or, another approach is to create a single-ethnic society by 
	"ethical cleansings". And then you will have 95% clean Bosnia,
	98% clean Greece ... and other nonsences.

	Point is, that all the newly create "clean" states will again,
	(by definition) be confronted with their different approach to 
	the recent history (even to the ancient - look at the example 
	of the Macedonian case), and peace will not be found for many,
	many years. The idea of EC, if it works, will be an excellent 
	example for the opposite.

	If you have time, read (again) the posting, Ivan Mihailov 
	"Macedonia: The Switzerland of the Balkans", and you will be 
	able to see what kind of federation was in minds of the 
	people in Macedonia in the first half of this century. 

	Once when that was not allowed, once when every neighboring nation
	decided to take a part that was able to take of Macedonia at the 
	time, and once they started the "excange of population" combined
	with other forms of ethnical cleansing, it lead to the creation
	of "pure" and new nations.
	
	That was directly fuel for the the irrational nationalism on both 
	sides in the Greeco-Macedonian problem. And that caused the 
	Greek side to write about "slavophonos", "slavic Macedonians"
	"Slavs", "bilingual Hellens" or who-knows-what name was invented,
	and the Macedonian side, like Mr. Apoleski, to talk about the same 
	words and letters used by the Alexander the Great and the 
	new-Macedonian alphabet created by Blazhe Koneski, and the nine-member
	commettee in 1945, ofcourse under the flag with the Star of Vergina.
	


	Regards,

		Lou
From: pigic@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Petar G. Igic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Test (ignore)
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:23:10 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Please ignore, this is just a test

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8319 soc.culture.greek:8187 soc.culture.europe:7890 eunet.politics:1143 talk.politics.misc:42762
From: yvent@ntua.gr (Yiannis Ventikos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: STOP BULLYING AND INTIMIDATING MACEDONIAN PEOPLE
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:02:06 GMT
Organization: National Technical University of Athens

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>In article <1992Aug24.052146.25453@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> on
>Mon, 24 Aug 1992 05:21:46 GMT 
>lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis) writes:

>>There is no slavic minority in Greece.  There are several bilinguals who
>>speak Slavic languages but they consider themselves to be Greeks.

>The biggest joke of the week!!!!

>When Noel Malcolm a journalist from "The Spectator" was in 
>North Greece he wrote the following:

>  Sitting at a cafe in a Slav village near
>  Florina [Lerin], in northern Greece,
>  surrounded by people talking in the Slav
>  Macedonian language, I pondered this minor
>  miracle. "They say we don't exist," said
>  one of them; "but tell me, do I look like a
>  ghost?"


>Sasa.

The well known, Pull. prize winner journalist Mr. Fictitious was on the
Greek colony on Mars the other day. All around him there were native
Greek speaking Greeks complaining about the bullying of the red planets'
goverment towards them. "Dont we use space suits and live in the domes like
everybody else? Therefore we exist" said one of them to the famous journalist.
...
A... I give up. Sasa's story is far far better. I'll grand you this my
*Scopian friend* you got imagination.


 
-------

******************************************************************************
* Yiannis Ventikos                              *        DISCLAIMER          *
* Viscous Flows Group,                          * Any and all opinions that  *
* Dept. of Naval Arch. & Marine Eng.,           * I have  expressed  so far  *
* National Technical University of Athens,      * reflect  thoughts of mine  *
* P.O. Box 64070, GR-15710, Zografos, GREECE    * and  mine alone and  have  *
* Voice: (301) 7700405                          * nothing  to do  with  the  *
* Fax:   (301) 7774478                          * policy of the  Department  *
* e-mail: yvent@areti.marinentua.ariadne-t.gr   * I currently belong to.     *
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: bucukov@bisco.kodak.com (Ilija Bucukovski (6-0998))
Subject: Makedonija
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 11:52:51 GMT

I am again in is shock as to why people continue to be so ignorant on the Macedonian issue.

to win. The bottom line is that Macedonija 

s are

 people exhibit, writing propaganda information about Macedonija. The

ny use of the Macedonian language can only

ong
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8270 soc.culture.europe:7802 soc.culture.turkish:9402
From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Time to Get Rid of the Nation-State? (was: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS [ Part 4 from 4 ])
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:38:21 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>As it appears that we are not ready for anarchy yet, and must
>have some form of government, how about utilizing the United
>Nations to take over some of the work? 

Should I assume that by UN you mean the security counsil or
more precisely USA? 

					Yannis.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia