HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:39:12 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga: Replies to Lazlo Nibble
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
 >And of *course* you're going to see discussion of a video game based on a
 >manga (in this case U.N. SQUADRON, which is the US version of a game based
 >on the comic AREA 88) in rec.games.video.arcade.

The point is that manga traffic originates everywhere except rec.arts.comics,
except when it applies to the small number of comic-ised manga. This
is more testimony to the very different nature of the media.

(The combined manga-related traffic on rec.games.video and r.g.v.arcade
is about substantially more than Area 88, though many might not recognise
it as such...)

 >I NEVER WROTE THIS.  You have a hell of a nerve writing something that I
 >completely disagree with and then attributing it to me, Sinclair!  

To anyone following the whole discussion, it'd be obvious that I
changed your diagram.  The intention was not to mislead, but to
correct.  The message-ID was left intact, if anyone wanted to check.

Nobody's trying to pull a swifty to get rec.arts.manga happening; it's
just not necessary.  Any implications to the contrary are just desperate
fabrications.


 >rec.arts.comics
 >rec.arts.comics.strips    .... comic strips are subordinate to comic books.
 >                          .... comic strips are a subset of comic books.

I didn't put "books" on the end in the original comparison.  Changes
the meaning a bit, don't you think?


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: [flame] On those who run newgroup votes
Date: 14 Apr 1992 00:02:27 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <2016@ra.nrl.navy.mil> atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Ran Atkinson) writes:
>  I've run votes for a number of newsgroups (including huge votes like
>the IBM PC reorg) and there is NO GOOD REASON for people to have
>bizarre restrictions on how a vote is worded.  As long as it is clear
>that it is a vote and is not a comment AND it is clear what the vote
>is, the wording should not matter or make the vote invalid.

You're effectively trying to do away with the use of vote counting software.
Is that really reasonable, especially in the face of votes that draw a
thousand ballots? I think we need to go the other way: publish a standard set
of vote-counting tools and encourage their use. In particular, that then makes
allegations of deliberate vote fraud much harder to support, since the votes
need not be touched by human hands.

>I request a formal change to the guidelines to insert text to this effect.

I will vigorously oppose such a proposal, and urge that others do so as well.

-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
         "Grow up children. Purchase lives." -- Geoff Collyer
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 14 Apr 1992 20:16:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <1992Apr13.181615.16879@uunet.uu.net> root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
>REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered
>
>CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
>        misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
>        misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents

   Bad idea.  It won't solve any of the current problems (perceived or
otherwise) with the newsgroups.  I believe moderating both the .offered
and the .resumes groups would be sufficient to make the groups more
usable.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
plutchak@porter.geo.brown.edu -or- PGGIPL::PLUTCHAK (VMS: Just say NO!)
Favorite sci.geo.meteorology quote: "Joel dissipated over China on 7 September."
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:18:07 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <1992Apr9.172342.25010@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>
>>Now, in this light, one can see that comics and manga are two different
>>points of view of the same thing.
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    We are going to take a second and focus in on this particular
>statement. If you agree that comics and manga are essentially the same
>form/medium/genre, how can you not see the logic behind placing them
>into the same newsgroup sub-hierarchy? Ignore for the moment all of the
>perceived notions about a 4 level group somehow being less important
>than a 3 level group, and tell me why they don't belong together.
>

A couple of things to note are the words "different" in my previous post,
as well as my "autos" vs "cars" analogy from one of my posts.

Wouldn't net.cars.autos  sound funny?  Well, I think they do.



--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jefft@athena.mit.edu (Jeff Tang)
Subject: rec.games.frp reorg
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: news
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:41:54 GMT


I've only been sketchily following this discussion, but it strikes me that
the most practical solution would be to simply vote for the  creation of
rec.games.frp.dnd   or  rec.games.dnd

and worry about  cyber  in a separate vote or at a later time.
--
Jeff Tang
jefft@athena.mit.edu
From: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 21:03:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44495
Reply-To: wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai)
Organization: Purdue Animation Club, Purdue University

In article <1992Apr8.172632.2715@tc.fluke.COM> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime) writes:
>I would recommend against it at this time; I have seen almost no spill-over
>of manga discussions into rec.arts.comics, which is where this would be
>discussed in the usual Usenet heirarchy -- and this makes me suspicious of
>the popularity of such a newsgroup.  I think you need to run a test on 
>a fully-propogated rec. group first to see what amount of traffic you're
>actually going to get.
>

	As strange it may seen, but all Manga discussion originated from the
	Rec.arts.anime newsgroup, and later, also in the Alt.manga after its
	creation. In very rare instants have I seen people talked about Manga
 	in r.a.c..
	This is a fact, Manga discussions does not mix with comics'.

	Also, you said you are in doubt of the popularity of Mangas,
	Of course they are not popular in r.a.c.! Because people normally
	do not associate Comic book with Manga!!
	That's why we are trying to creat r.a.m.. - Got it?
	
>Suggestion: try posting in rec.arts.comics with the keyword "MANGA: " at the
>beginning of the subject line for a month or two, and we'll see how the
>traffic stacks up to everything else there.
>

	Can try. No objection. People in r.a.c. would tend to 'refer' you
	to either Rec.arts.anime or Alt.manga anyway.  8)
	(A fact - Don't deny this!)


>---
>                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
>INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
>Manual UUCP:  {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty
>CREDO:        You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
>                 **>> Keep circulating the tapes <<**


	Now, let's get back to the discussion...

	=>  Rec.arts.Manga!!!


---
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 /           Benjamin Wai         \\        < wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu >     \
(         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       \\        < wai@cn.ecn.purdue.edu >     )
 \ - - *   Purdue University   * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /
  * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:49:58 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>The people who will post to the new group want it to be rec.arts.manga;
>the people who won't want it to be rec.arts.comics.manga.   I think
>it's more productive to heed the wishes of the former group.

    Well, since everyone on the net is entitled to a vote and the right
to post to the group, I don't see why this distinction has any real
weight. 

>There is another significant objection:  even with low propagation,
>traffic in alt.manga has been increasing steadily, to the point where
>it will overtake rec.arts.comics' volume in a few months.  There is
>already talk of splitting the existing low-propagation group!

    Ah, ok, lets talk about numbers for a second here then. For the
month of March alt.manga had an estimated readership 12000, the % of
sites that get the group was 47, the total number of articles posted to
the group was 427, the size of said articles in Mbytes was 993.3 and the
group ranks 927 based of readership percentage. Now for rec.arts.comics,
the same numbers are: 48000, 78%, 2508 articles, 4416.0 Mbytes, rank
172. Now it doesn't take a statistician (although I am one just incase
the need arises ;) it is clear to see that alt.manga for all its recent
"growth" is nowhere near the size of rec.arts.comics. And with barely
over 100 articles per week, why are you even thinking about splitting
alt.manga? Rec.arts.comics averaged better than 80 articles per day, and
we haven't been able to split it for a number of years.

>A rec.arts.comics.manga would inhibit any such split -- more than four
>or five levels of hierarchy is totally undesirable.

    Undesireable to whom. Your news reading software couldn't care less
about how many nodes deep a group is, as long as no single node name is
longer than 14 characters.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:21:11 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane) writes:
 >Well, for one thing, people who don't know what manga are might have
 >a better chance of finding the group and getting interested if they
 >had some idea that "manga" are in some way related to comics.

It's expected that people who know what manga are, or even what
the word means, will be the people who are posting there.  Anyone
who comes there expecting "comics" will just be wasting their time.

 >Not that I care one way or the other.

Why post, then? :-)


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: freedman@bellman.lanl.gov (Keith S. Freedman)
Subject: News Articles via E-Mail
Reply-To: freedman@bellman.lanl.gov
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:26:53 GMT

are there any sites where one can request indexes and, subsiquently, articles from
ANY newsgroup.

Or are there any public NNTP servers that have most newsgroups available??

Thanks,
---
Keith Freedman
Los Alamos National Laboratory
freedman@ilmen.lanl.gov
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:59:39 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

albertw@netcom.com (Albert Wong) writes:

>lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>> deny the uniqueness of the genre, but for organization's sake if you have
>> an existing subhierarchy that's appropriate, you should use it.  Manga
>> are comics, so they should be under rec.arts.comics.
>> 

>Perhaps, it should be something like rec.arts.comics.us for the
>domestic stuff, and rec.arts.comic.manga for the manga stuff.  That
>way both topics are on the same 'level' of the hierarchy and no one
>complains that "your newsgroup is higher than my newsgroup".

    Who cares!?

    You know, this is one of the biggest reasons why splitting
rec.games.frp hasn't worked in the past. People seem to think that the
name has some intrinsic value that is passed onto the group, when it is
just a name. It should be chosen in such a manner that is logical and
efficient. rec.arts.manga isn't efficient IMHO.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | "When you get right down do it there is only
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   |  one thing that matters here...
 Mac Database Developer     |                       I Have Mob Ties!"
 Dartmouth Medical School   |      -Mario Cuomo (played by Phil Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
From: bill@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:15:13 GMT

In article <1284@hydra.bucknell.edu> norbeck@mira.bucknell.edu (nancy norbeck `93) writes:


>I still think the problem lies not in the "cd" part of the name but in
>the "music" p6rt.  Havingmusic in the name implies that the group
>exists primarily to disucss music--from what I've seen this is not the
>case at all.  The group exists (as far as I can tell) to discuss ONLY
>that music which is exclusively on cd, (unrealistic as that is) and to
>discuss technical things like CD players and other audio stuff that
>has *nothing* at all to do with the actual *music*.  

When rec.music.cd started a vast majority of the people did not
even know what a CD was.

rec.audio handled the hardware side, and rec.music.cd handled
what was available on CD.

When I got my CD player there were NO CD's on sale in music
stores.  The audio stores that sold the players had 50 or so
titles, and they would order what you wanted from their list of
about 2-3 thousand titles.

That is why it started.    Now that CD's have taken the world
by storm the category really is  1) not needed, 2) too broad,
or 3) needs to be subdivided into a more hierarchical order as
many groups have done that have this much traffic.


-- 
Bill Vermillion - bill@bilver.uucp 
                - ..!{peora|ge-dab|tous|tarpit}!bilver!bill
Xref: sparky news.groups:9921 news.admin:3507
From: entropy@joseph (Lawrence C Foard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Date: 10 Apr 92 01:22:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: wpi.1992Apr10.012212.30990
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute

In article <92100.105855JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>
>
> The RFD on soc.personals.* has said that two of the
>proposed groups may not passed due to the so called
>"homophobic" voters on the net; so in order to prevent
>this alledged problem, the proposer of the RFD suggested
>suspending the requirement that each group be considered as
>a separate vote.

What is the purpose of allowing a group to be voted down if there is
sufficient interest in it? This seems like a hazard in the creation of
any news group that could be controversial.

Personally I don't think it is a danger in this case, homophobes tend to
post alot and all in caps giving the impression that there are more than
there are, but fortunitly these people only get to vote once unless they
resort to forging votes.  

-- 
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are 99.44% true.            ------  0<p<1  
Hackers do it for fun.  |  Being Bisexual squares your         \    / therefore
"Profesionals" do it for money. |  probability of not getting   \  / p^2<p and
Managers have others do it for them. |  laid on a saturday night.\/ 1-p^2>1-p 
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
From: kenk@sdc.com (Ken Konecki)
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Organization: Systems Development Corporation
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:43:42 GMT

In article <92100.105855JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>
>
> The RFD on soc.personals.* has said that two of the
>proposed groups may not passed due to the so called
>"homophobic" voters on the net...

It shouldn't matter why a 'no' vote is received.  No is no, period.
The rules shouldn't change simply because a newsgroup may not be created
as a result of valid no votes.

Cheers,
    -Ken K
-- 
Ken Konecki
e-mail:kenk@sdc.com    -or-    ...!uunet!uupsi2!sdc!kenk
"The amount of education you have determines your loot in life"
From: dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 12 Apr 92 02:13:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: zia.1992Apr12.021331.3355
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM

In article <1992Apr11.225613.18007@udel.edu> gallo@sol.cis.udel.edu
 (Andy Gallo) writes:
>>  2) Select a name for the group.
>
>	comp.graphics.imageproc or something similar.  It should 
>definitately be someplace in the comp.graphics tree.

I have to disagree, Andy.  My first suggestion would be sci.image-process
or sci.image-proc, or even sci.image.processing.  (sci.image-processing
would exceed the limit on some systems, but would otherwise be my first
choice.)  I would reluctantly support comp.image-proc, if pressed.
However, I emphatically do *not* support comp.graphics.image-proc.  I think
that image processing is a wider field that you might realize.  There are a
number of us hanging out in sci.astro, and likely a number of the other
sci.* groups who would probably be frequent posters.  While what I do is
certainly image processing, it really doesn't have that much in common
with computer graphics.

Hmmm, now that I think of it, how about two groups?  sci.imaging, which
would encompass the entirety of imaging science, including all the gory
details of the indirect imaging fields.  Interferometry in all its
incarnations (phased, phaseless, intensity, speckle...), medical imaging
(tomography, ultrasound, shadowgrams), geophysical imaging, coded mask
imaging.  There are lots more!  This would have a broader charter than
strict image processing.  (In my case, I worry a lot about self calibration
of interferometric arrays.  Not really image processing, but certainly
imaging.)  I also work with deconvolution algorithms, which would fit under
either charter.  We'd also have a different group, perhaps
comp.graphics.image-proc for the "traditional" image processing techniques.
I think this could work out quite nicely, though there would doubtless be
a fairly high degree of crossposting.  But if we only get one group, I
refuse to be lumped into computer graphics!

Comments, anyone?

(And in reality, no matter what the group is called, I'll post to it.  :)

>>  4) Decide whether the group should be moderated and, if so, select a
>>     moderator.
>
>	I would be in support of an UNMODERATED newsgroup.

Likewise.  Unmoderated, please.

-- 
| Daniel Briggs  (dbriggs@nrao.edu)                      |        USPA B-14993
| New Mexico Tech / National Radio Astronomy Observatory |            DoD #387
| P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM 87801   (505) 835-7391        |
Support the League for Programming Freedom  (info from league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gallo@sol.cis.udel.edu (Andy Gallo)
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 22:56:13 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.045029.17668@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> newberry@astro.as.arizona.edu (Mike Newberry) writes:
>			 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
>		       on creating a newsgroup for
>                            IMAGE PROCESSING
>
>  1) Determine if there is sufficient interest to warrant calling for a
>     vote to create the proposed group.

	I would say there is interest in such a group.  I currently find
image processing related postings on a number of groups (comp.graphics, 
alt.graphics, comp.dsp, comp.ai.vision, etc).  It would be most useful
to find all of these relevant articles in one place.  

>  2) Select a name for the group.

	comp.graphics.imageproc or something similar.  It should 
definitately be someplace in the comp.graphics tree.

>  4) Decide whether the group should be moderated and, if so, select a
>     moderator.

	I would be in support of an UNMODERATED newsgroup.  A
moderated group can tend to increase the propagation delay of
messages.  Besides, let me be the one to decide if a particular
posting is relevant.  Comp.graphics has a very good signal-to-noise
ratio - I would hope users of comp.graphics.imageproc would behave
similarly.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
> Andy Gallo   | gallo@asel.udel.edu  | Applied Science and Engineering Labs  <
> 302-651-6830 | gallo@cis.udel.edu   | U. of Delaware Computer Science Dept. <
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
>      Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free...             <
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.music.enya
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  8 Apr 92 22:46:26 GMT

In <1992Apr8.222514.12179@bradley.bradley.edu> pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:

>Would a call for rec.music.artists.enya actually require a restructuring
>vote?
   Good question. Any net gurus have any input on this? I'm going to have to
hold up on the CFV as there may be a possible name change.
   I think it would take a restructuring vote, as sever other groups would be 
changed. (elvis, beatles... etc.)

>>   For those of you who love or hate me... 
>What you don't seem to be seeing is that it has nothing to do with YOU
>personally.
   That was just a joke. I forgot the smiley.

>I think it's pretty clear from the discussion that an enya group does NOT
>have nearly as much support.  Not only that, it's just plain a bad idea.
>And of course, we DO have alt.music.enya, and yes, it's even here at
>our site.
   I have recieved more 'yes' mail than I have seen 'no' posts. Also, rec
groups (as I have said before) are formally recognised. alt groups are not
received by everyone, and don't have the status. (I want this to be a REAL
group, not a joke.) And again, I wil ask for the deletion of alt.music.enya
if rec.music.enya fails the vote.

	 frnk! :>
--
_____________________________________________________________________________.
!________Paul Ondercin, owner of "THE MACHINE", a 486 of epic power!__________!
|frnk@bucs1.bradley.edu   frnk@buhub.bradley.edu   frnk@camelot.bradley.edu   |
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!_________ponder@heartland.bradley.edu_____________ae198@yfn.ysu.edu__________!
!___Frnkfrnkfrnkfrnkfrnk!!!___|_Just a little penguin that can only say Frnk!_!
!_*YOU* think you've got problems?_Ever worry about being eaten by a walrus?__!