From: kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 05:55:08 GMT

harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>>The USA was founded mainly by atheists, and laws were put in its
>>>charters to keep it that way.  Since then, we've moved farther away
>>>from religious influence, not closer.  Take a look at the number of
>>>judgements in the last few decades restricting things like prayer in
>>>schools, etc.

>>Greg, I have no idea where they attempted to teach you history, but
>>I don't think those NoDoze worked.  

>Cute.  Apparently you missed the chapters that even I didn't, though.

>>Not by *ANY* stretch of overblown
>>historical imagination were the founders of our country atheists.  
>>That's simply wrong.  The judgments given in the last few decades prove
>>not one thing about the founding fathers of this country - who would
>>undoubtedly be appalled at the incredible way their ideals were twisted.

>Here's a refresher course for you, taken from a post just a few days
>ago.  Thanks go to Tristan Riley (triley@weber.ucsd.edu).

>   "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian
>   doctrine"--George Washington

I did not say he was a Christian.  He was not.  He was a Deist.
Deists believe that a Supreme Being exists, but that He is remote 
from daily affairs.  That is *NOT* atheism.

>   "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are twenty
>   gods or no gods.  It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"
>   -- Thomas Jefferson

>   "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature"
>   --Jefferson again

Ditto.

>   "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by
>   the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the
>   Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of.  My own mind is
>   my own church"--Thomas Paine

Ditto.

>   and for good measure "The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is
>   not my religion.  I could never give assent to the long complicated
>   statements of Christian dogma"--Abe Lincoln

Ditto.  

>   all quotes culled from "Salvation for Sale" by Gerard Thomas Straub

>So, your statement is false.  It should have read, "Not by *ANY*
>stretch of overblown historical imagination were the founders of our
>country Christians."

>And, BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the recent judgements reflected
>the intentions of the founding fathers.  However, they would have
>undoubtedly agreed with them, as you would have known had you been
>familiar with their views before flaming me.

Try reading the Declaration of Independence sometime.  Note
the reference to "nature and Nature's God" paragraph one, 
that men "are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights"
paragraph 2, and that "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine
Providence" last paragraph.  

Read the Articles of Confederation, last paragraph "Whereas it hath 
pleased the Great Governor of the world to incline the hearts of the 
legislatures ..."  

I never said they were Christian - you just saw the words "God" and 
"religion" and assumed that I had.  You, on the other hand, took 
their remarks about Christianity and _assumed_ that they were atheists,
which they were most assuredly not.

>>>So you'd rather have a country where all individuals must prove their
>>>mental competency?  Those who can't "prove" it are SOL?  Only those
>>>with "state-approved competency" will have rights?

>>We have that now.  It's called "genetic testing".  Any unborn child 
>>which fails the test dies via abortion - at least the counselors work
>>damn hard to see that they do.

>Wow.  You can't get more tangential to the subject at hand than that.
>We'll have to remember this one when they're handing out the awards at
>the end of the year.  I'm talking about the possibility of a
>government that would assume all citizens were mentally incompetent
>until proven otherwise and you jump to the subject of diseased fetal
>tissue.  And not only do you make such an incredible leap, but you
>spout anti-abortion propaganda when you land.  Amazing.

All individuals must prove competency.  I point out a few instances.
You find that amazing.  I don't wonder.

>>Furthermore, all individuals in a court of law must prove competency.
>>Always have had to.  The simple test is age - you have to be at least
>>X years old where X used to be 21.  If you're that old or older, 
>>competency is assumed unless someone questions it, at which point proof
>>of competency has to be shown. 

>Exactly.  My opinion, and Hillary Clinton's (since that is how we got
>on this subject), is that age should not be used as the sole criterion
>when the court assumes competency.  Many of those under the "age of
>competency" are more competent than many of those over it.  Also, the
>court should never assume a lack of competency.  That's "guilty until
>proven innocent."

Fine.  I pointed out that such assumptions have certain sequelae.
So?

>>>You'd, of course, be using your own religious criteria, since you
>>>place so little weight on "secular reasoning."

>>Right now we're using _you're_ religious reasoning, only they call
>>it "science".  Science is as dependent on faith as any other form of
>>human thought.

>I disagree with that statement.  Science is the only "faith" (using
>your term here for the sake of argument) which offers _any_ proof with
>which to back it.  Most of the physical phenomena we "believe in" may
>be demonstrated.  We can view the physical results, even if you refuse
>to accept the basis.  Religion relys on absolute faith.

The proof is based on faith.  You have faith that the world is millions
of years old based on radio-isotope dating, yet we have only been studying
elemental decay rates for less than a century out of all of those 
putative millions of years, and our testing is all performed in the 
same century block out of a several million year sample.  Hardly random.
How do we know our conclusions are worth crap?  We don't.  We take it on
faith.  Ditto nearly any field of endeavor.  We assume the universe has
always been the way it is right now.  Absolutely no reason to think that
assumption is correct other than faith.  Your "proof" is as thin as
any religion's.  Scientists just happen to be better con men than some.

>>>Yes, but the Christian commandment "Honor thy mother and thy father"
>>>makes the children slaves to their parents, which is synonymous with
>>>property.  The choice is to do what mommy and daddy say or burn in
>>>Hell.  That's "religious reasoning" for you.

>>Greg, I'm really sorry you were abused as a child, but don't take it out
>>on the rest of the world, alright?  

>Oooh.  I'll be sure to print this out and mail it off to my parents,
>with a copy to their lawyer.  Lessee... They can probably get you
>_and_ UIUC for this one.  Too bad you didn't learn any more while you
>were there...

He's gone swimming and fell asleep, thus the wet dreams....

>>Your gross distortions of religion
>>do no one any service.  How you turn the word "honor" into an equivalent
>>of slavery is impressive - certainly the members of our military would
>>be glad to know that you consider them slaves for honoring our Constitution.

>Certainly, if it had been my wording in the first place.  It isn't.
>It's that of _your_ religious leaders.  Do you wish to deny the words
>of your God?  He said that you must honor your parents, and disobeying
>them is surely dishonoring them.

Greg, I am very sorry that your life is rotten, but please try to control
yourself.  I deny that you have any concept of what religion is about.
That's all I can safely say right now.  I don't want you to do yourself
an injury.

>-- 
>-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
>  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
>  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
>  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
>  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure

Steve Kellmeyer
-- 

Steve Kellmeyer 
kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu