HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:00:38 -0600
From:         guthery@SLCS.SLB.COM
Subject:      Robert Morris
Comments: To: ETHICS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
Comments: cc: ETHICS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              5 Nov 1992 15:50:12 EST <9211061558.AA05862@leo.asc.slb.com>

>From serge@imag.fr Sun Oct 18 12:30 EDT 1992
From: Serge Rouveyrol <serge@imag.fr>
take on our computer (imag.imag.fr ) the postscript of a student  rapport
~ftp/pub/DOC.UNIX/INTERNET/securite.ps.Z

>From peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com Mon Oct 19 08:59 EDT 1992
From: Peter Desnoyers <peterd@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com>
Two papers that I have in my files are:

%A Eugene H. Spafford - Purdue
%T The Internet Worm Program: An Analysis
%B Purdue Technical Report CSD-TR-823
%D 1988
%X Report on the Internet worm, along with reverse-engineered source.
Available (with other Purdue TRs) by FTP from  Purdue.

%A Mark W. Eichin
%A Jon A. Rochlis
%T With Microscope and Tweezers: An Analysis of the Internet Virus of
November 1988
%J (tech report retrieved via FTP from athena-dist. To be presented at 1989
IEEE Symposium on Research in Security and Privacy.)
%D February 9, 1989

                                Peter Desnoyers
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 09:57:00 EST
From:         BM2762%ALBNYVMS.bitnet@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU
Subject:      guthery's condemnation
Comments: To: ethics-l@uga.cc.uga.EDU

        Hey, there, mister.  I'm a product of puyblic school education.
While I may not have any health insurance, and I may be poor as dirt,
I am still pretty well educated.  Just becuase you have a few rotten
apples in the lot which make a bad name for all children doesn't mean
that you can paint all p.s. graduates with your wide brush strokes
of prejudice.  There is more to intelligence than standardized test
scores.  Geniuses are still being produced.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:22:55 EDT
From:         Wolfgang Pelz <R1PELZ@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Robert Morris
              4 Nov 1992 14:37:39 -0600 from <guthery@SLCS.SLB.COM>

In reference to the case of leaving my car unlocked and running in front
of the 7-11, I agree with guthery that I have some responsibility.  I
will pay for my negligence when my insurance company refuses to cover my
loss.

However, and this is the key point here, all of this is not relevant to
the issue of the car thief's culpability.  The thief has still committed a
crime and is responsible for his actions.

The discussion about computers and schools brings up the same arguments
that were made when calculators first became easily available.  My
concern (and that of many others) is the dependence on a particular tool
to accomplish specific tasks.  When the tool is removed, the student can
not revert to slower manual methods because the underlying skills have
not been taught or practiced.  The tool has not only removed the drudgery
from the task, it has also become too intimately bound to the task.  The
student believes that multiplication is impossible when the batteries run
out.  How can one check spelling without a spelling checker?

If the computer (or calculator) is used to enhance the learning process,
then it has a place in the schools.  If it is only a crutch, then we are
not being fair to the students.

Yes, I'm probably a traditionalist.  I am also a computer science
professor who has seen too many students lacking many of the basic skills
in mathematics, oral and written communications, and other areas. I feel
that computer skills are important (possibly essential) in today's world,
but these skills should be in addition to, not in place of, other skills.

Wolfgang Pelz
Department of Mathematical Sciences
The University of Akron
r1pelz@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:29:00 EST
From:         BM2762%ALBNYVMS.bitnet@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU
Subject:      It is unethical behavior to act as the RTM victims did
Comments: To: ethics-l@uga.cc.uga.EDU

        Guthery was talking about (I believe) sysadmins who simply
failed to do the simple things, for ewxample:

When DEC comes over to your place to install a shiny new VAX, it
comes complete with standard fatory p[asswords like ROOT accounts,
etc.  RTM new about this kinda stuff.  Well, the sysadmins did, too.
I'm sure that when they got the sheet that says, "CHANGE YOUR ROOT
PASSWORDS OR ELSE" they simply shrugged and decided it wasn't worth
the effort.  Much like it isn't worth the trouble of locking your car
`to duck into the 7-11 for a grape Welch's.
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Original_cc:  DAVE
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:04:00 MDT
From:         "David D. Grisham" <DAVE@UNMB.BITNET>
Subject:      Ethics syliabi

I was unable to find the posting from anyone who had a collection
of ethics sylabi.  I also checked many archives and other Internet news
groups.  I'm posting this, since I had many requests for the ftp
address from across the net.  If anyone finds the site housing ethics
sylabi, please post.  If you want to see ethics documents, ftp to ariel.unm.edu
directory is ethics.  I will soon have the ethics listserver up, which
contains the same files.  --grish
  Dave Grisham, Security Admin., CIRT     BITNET DAVE@UNMB.UNM.EDU
  Univ. of New Mexico, Albq, NM  87131    Internet dave@ariel.unm.edu
  Phone #'s w (505) 277-8032   FAX (505) 277-8101
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:27:00 EST
From:         YO LARRY <GM1116@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The erroneous perspective on hackers

>The escape clause is of course that agents authorized by the profession to
>act in some fashion that protects privacy of systems to an appropriate
>degree but also acts to detect and prevent unauthorized access is the
>ethical course.  We don't need vigilantee's.

I must disagree.  IF there are appropriate agents authorized, than it
would be unethical, IF said agents performed their job.
HOWEVER, when these agents do not perfomr their jobs, it is ETHICAL to
take it upon yourself to perform these actions.  Case in point,
WATERGATE!  Many actions of the reporters were illegal, however,
without them the affair would not of been uncovered.  There are times
when the ends justify the means.

-Gary A Mort
GM1116@albnyvms
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:12:17 PST
From:         "(Woody Weaver)" <woody@STMARYS-CA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Robert Morris
Comments: To: ETHICS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

PRogers@Albion.BITNet asks
>i have heard sketchy rumors about who robert morris was.  would someone please
>email me more information.  as i understand his "worm" programs were extremely
>inventive as well as unethical and damaging.

Robert T. Morris (sometimes you see references to RTM) is interesting for
several reasons.  He is the son of Robert Morris Sr, an expert in Unix
security.

RTM launched the Internet Worm.  A Worm is a program that replicates itself
using network services.  They can be quite useful to make good use of unused
network resources, and one of the ideas for next-generation supercomputing
is to use NSFnet to link supercomputers to produce a beast with even higher
computational power.

RTM's worm used a known bug in Sendmail, plus breaking through accounts with
weak password protection to enter foreign systems.  His actions were
especially repugnant because the betrayed the trust system managers have set
up with the Internet.

His program was not "extremely inventive".  No new ideas were developed, and
I am told the code was not inspiring.  (I have not seen a decompilation.)
The code was certainly buggy.  RTM's intent was to have one copy of the worm
at each site, and so had a "don't transmit if I'm already there" sequence;
unfortunately, he assumed that sysadmins might not want the worm in their
system, and might use a false message to the effect that the site was
already compromised.  Consequently, he assigned a small probability that the
worm would re-enter the system anyway.  He badly misunderstood the speed of
network communications, and so his job clogged the Internet, preventing
sites from doing useful work and accepting communications.

Damage is difficult to assess; the program did not destroy information, but
it did cause denial of service, and caused thousands of manhours of work.
RTM's worm in any sense was A Bad Thing.

Afterwards, there were a flurry of articles about the worm.  The most
comprehensive was by Gene Spafford; you might look around for it -- I'm sure
its on an ftp site somewhere.  One comment remains with me -- William
Murrays statement to the effect of "RTM was not an evil man.  He merely lost
his moral compass."  Ethical standards in computing are not immediately
obvious, and even in a household such as the Morris', may not be easily
transmitted.  Thus this list has importance.

Robert Weaver                         office: 510-631-4416
Department of Mathematical Sciences     home: 510-680-1986
St. Mary's College of California         fax: 510-376-4027
Moraga, CA 94575                        data: 510-376-1554
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:09:26 EST
From:         Stacy B Veeder <SBVEEDER@SUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Here We Go Again...

Leave it to Scott Guthery to get a good argument going...  So far, we've
managed to stay on the topic of ethics and computers, but I anticipate
that his most recent post is going to send us hurtling down the path of
digression...

We all know (!!) how you feel about today's schools, Scott.  One can argue
(not here, I hope!) about the alleged "moral bankruptcy" of educators, but
I think we all can agree that whatever problems exist are more complex than
that.  You don't want computers in YOUR children's classroom (so put them
into private schools or, if your state permits it, educate them at home),
and you don't want to support computers in other children's classrooms (but
we ALL pay taxes to support programs that may benefit only other people).
And, like it or not, teachers teach kids values and ethics every day.  So do
strangers on the street.  Unless you plan to lock your kids up, you aren't
going to be the only arbiter of their development--the best you can hope
for is to be one of the most influential.
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 15:05:12 -0500
From:         "(Michael K. Jacobs)" <MKJACOBS@GSVMS2.CC.GASOU.EDU>
Subject:      In support of Stacy B. Veeder
Comments: To: ETHICS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU

I just want to go on record as supporting the recent posting from
  Stacy B Veeder.  Before you can begin to teach ethics (at any level I
  might add), you must first teach students on how to think logically
  and rationally for themselves.  (In addition to teaching the basic
  courses in Math and English).  Why not teach a logic and philosophy
  class.

     Remember, "With training you can get a job, with an education-
                you can do anything."

  Michael Jacobs, Programmer II
  Georgia Southern University
  Statesboro Georgia

  MKJACOBS@GSMVS2.CC.GASOU.EDU

    "The Universe is only as big as you make it." - Unknown.

                               * * * * *
From: BA24@UTEP.BITNET (Marshall Adams)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Subject: Re: Children and Computers,
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:11:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Concerning the skill of extracting a square root, a skill one rarely
needs to use:

There have always been advances in ways of doing things.  And there
have probably always been people who thought an easier way would be
detrimental to learning.  Consider Pythagoras' leap of logic when he
discovered the relationship between the square roots of the sides of
his triangle.  It was taught but largely simply accepted  until the
Arabs gave us a number system that made the extraction of a square
root reasonable.  Then it could be demonstrated.  To demonstrate the
previous difficultly, consider:
                 sqrt(XXV) = sqrt(IX + XVI)
With arabic numbers, surveyed measurements could be demonstrated.
The special case might be easy to understand, but just think of the
poor math student sweating blood the extract a square root before
arabic numbers.  I don't think it built character any better than the
use of the new tool the Arabs gave us.  And I don't think avoiding
the use of any more modern tool has ever built character since.
I agree that the brain, like a muscle, grows with use.  But spending
more than a History semester on teaching archaic numerical methods
is likely to turn a potential math wizard to other disciplines.
--Marshall Adams
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:04:51 -0600
From:         guthery@SLCS.SLB.COM
Comments: To: ETHICS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
Comments: cc: ETHICS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              5 Nov 1992 18:05:04 EST <9211052309.AA03855@leo.asc.slb.com>

In response to Irv Tyler:

What the last 20 years have taught everyone that isn't a member of the NEA is
that parents are the best available keepers of the responsibility for
education the nation's children.  This works out nicely because, of course, it
was the parents that had the kids in the first place.

Thus, I agree that I am and should be required by the members of the community
to educate my issue.  It follows that the responsibilty to educate the issue
of others is theirs not mine.  Further, how I educate my issue is my choice
(by the doctrine of "my body, my choice" if nothing else :-)).  I am only
required to educate them.

I agree with Irv and take the argument one step further.  Give the $300
billion back to the parents ... i.e. "re- empower" them to educate their
childern ... and they will become more involved in the process and we will as
a result have better educated children ... never mind that however they choose
to actually educate them will be better than what they have currently.

It really is that easy ... just give back the money you took.  But watch the
NEA and the educrats fight it tooth and nail.  They've got their snoots in a
$300 billion trough and don't want to be told that feeding time is over.

In case you're wondering how low they'll stoop to save their gravy train, in
California the NEA organized teachers to make bogus entries on petitions for
school choice thus thwarting democrary to preserve their free ride. Do you
really want these people in front of a classroom teaching your kids?  Do
you want them teaching your kids these values and (computer) ethics?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:37:17 MET
From:         "James A. Lundon DTN 822-415 06-Nov-1992 1335"
              <"xstacy::xstacy::xstacy::jlundon"@XSTACY.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject: Re: Robert Morris
Comments: To: ethics-l@uga.cc.uga.edu@xstacy.enet.dec.com
Comments: cc: jlundon@xstacy.enet.dec.com

> Afterwards, there were a flurry of articles about the worm.  The most
> comprehensive was by Gene Spafford; you might look around for it -- I'm sure
> its on an ftp site somewhere.

Any one got an idea where the report is on the net. It would make interesting
reading.

                          James.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James A. Lundon,|    jlundon@xstacy.enet.dec.com      "What we obtain too
 Digital,        |                                      cheaply, we esteem too
 Ballybrit,      |       Phone  353 + 91  54715         lightly; it is dearness
 Galway,         |       FAX    353 + 91  54899         only that gives
 Ireland.        |                                      everything its value"
                 |                                                Anon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: PB94018@UTKVM1.BITNET (Vince DeHart)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Subject: Re: give the money back
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:25:06 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

To this argument, I'll add the difference in quality of schooling that
children will continue to get. If I get back the full $2000, I'll use
all of it for my child's education. But what about Joe down the road,
who didn't do too well in school himself, doesn't put that much stock
in education, expects his boy to learn his trade from him, and has had
his eye on that new bass boat? And suppose he hears about the new
discount "Schools'R'Us" franchise that caters to people like him? My
point is, we'll still have ample opportunity for bad school systems,
bad teachers, and unequal educational opportunity. Such a "solution"
won't solve any of the existing problems.
--
Vince DeHart (speaking only for myself)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:28:34 EST
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      RE: ethics and morals

Rich-

We don't disagree; I did not mean to suggest that breaking and entering (or
lying, killing, etc) are never wrong.  They almost always are, but only
"almost".  What the police officer and I did are, viewed one way the same,
but as the circumstances differ, so might the ethicality.

John
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:45:19 EST
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Teching ethics at elementary levels

Having read Guthery's latest post, I am still curious: HOW many years did
you spend teaching kindergarten?  Or is your knowledge about what little kids
need educationally "pure", i.e., unsullied by any contact with actual kids in
real classes.   Most teachers I know and have worked with are good people
doing their best at a hard job with kids who have new needs in schools that
have been abandoned by the society that they serve.  You do them an injustice.
And their children.



****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 07:56:50 EST
From:         Charles Elliott <CEE@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Teching ethics at elementary levels

In response to SeaDog's suggestion that we not include parts of previous
postings - Hey, SeaDog - this is *not* a normal conversation, but EMail,
and there may be several threads, new folks may come on in the middle of
discussions, regular readers may miss a thread...and there is a real need
for showing what the context of a comment is. Some mail systems allow for
easy reposting with editing...if that is not possible on some systems, the
more awkward downloading-editing-uploading and reposting may be the answer.

What I don't like is the sort of ad hominem remarks you have made about
Guthrie. There is no place for snide personal attacks on any list. --Charles
Elliott

----------------------------------------------------------------|
Charles Elliott                                                 |
cee @ cornellc                                                  |
cee@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu                                    |
----------------------------------------------------------------|
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ethics-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:02:54 EST
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Robert Morris

Was Morris the Cornell grad student who was hacking out of curiosity,
but whose worm turned virus and infeceted a whole bunch of neyworked
systems, including (if I am not mistaken) some BIG financial databases
and even a DOD computer?


****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:36:00 EST
From:         YO LARRY <GM1116@ALBNYVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: kids 'n 'puters

I'm confused by these comments about the problems with the education
system.  It seems that people wish to generalize THEIR experience to
EVERYONE.  *MY* high school was very good at teaching science,
english, history, and had a few computer courses(coming from beamertown
the computers were, for the most part, free.  So shut your mouth about paying
for it).  I'm tired of others telling me what "the situation" is.  If you have
problems with the education system in your area, work to change IT.  Try to make
   it better, but don't close *MY* school because of your schools problems.
If your too lazy to try to change it, why don't you send your kids to
private school?????

I'm sorry if I sound a bit aggressive, but I'm an independent sort and
don't like being told what to do.

-Gary
GM1116@albnyvms
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