From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: WELL anonymity policy
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:50:22 GMT

In article <1haqotINNjdk@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

>Mike, I was only taking your words at face value --
>When you said "the system I know" I assumed by this you meant
>"the WELL".  Therefore I thought you were saying that
>the substance of my posts was not connected to the
>WELL, which I felt compelled to point out is false.

I wish you had taken *all* my words at face value--the words "doesn't
seem," for example.

>You're skating on thin ice here.  All the evidence points to it being 
>fairly restrictive, including what I've been able to
>learn from WELL admins thus far.

All the evidence points to no such thing. You are dismissing evidence that
doesn't support your point, such as when I point out that no one who has
seriously wanted an anonymous account has failed to get one.

>And I don't think
>any contributors to this thread have denied that
>pseudonymity is discouraged at the WELL.

So's bad language. But that doesn't mean people can't curse on the WELL.
You seem to elide the distinction between "discouraged" and "forbidden."

>>Could we have a number of the *actual* WELL users who are complaining
>>about this? 
>
>An aside, perceiving something as a disadvantage is not the same
>as "complaining".  
>
>As for your question, how many users do *not* see it as a 
>disadvantage??  Could we have a number for them?

Oh, about 5000 have never said anything about the issue. Now, please answer the question.

>Why do you believe the users I've talked to are not representative?

Because I know that those who want anonymity can get it. And because
you've only alluded to one WELL user. Tell me: are you being coy about the
number of WELL users because you haven't spoken to that many?

>Mike, here you are being ludicrous.  If someone does not wish
>to use the system other than anonymously, they're not in
>much of a position to "experience the system a bit" before
>forming an opinion, are they?

Sure they are. Ever heard of lurking?

>And you keep using the word "speculating" inappropriately.

On the contrary: "speculation" means going beyond what you know to be a
fact. You clearly have done this a lot.

>>As the user of countless online forums, I think I'm fairly familiar with
>>the range of ways in which systems can be run. 
>
>This alleged familiarity is certainly not showing through in
>your posts here.  Hence my comment above.

Really? What makes you think I'm not familiar with other online systems?
The fact that I, who use the WELL, disagree with the perception of you,
a person who never has used it? There is no logical connection between
these two propositions.

>So far as I can tell the WELL is doing fine.  That doesn't
>mean their policies on privacy matters are perfect however.

Who said their policies are perfect? Anyone in this forum?

>Mike, you have repeatedly misstated what I've posted here to make my
>concerns sems more extreme than I've actually expressed, so that you
>can then attack me for things I've never said.  You are using
>a "strawman" approach to the debate, in other words.

This is a fairly ironic comment, coming from a person who implies I've
said the WELL's policies are "perfect," and from someone who jumps from my
disagreement with him to the conclusion that I have no experience on other
systems.

>Don't you think 
>the readers of comp.org.eff.talk are a little too savvy to be 
>impressed by this tactic?

I suspect you learned about "strawman arguments" when someone got on your
case for using one.

I'm sure that even if I *had* used a strawman argument (I didn't), those
who would be impressed by such a tactic on my part would be equally
impressed by your ad hominem implication that I'm ignorant of other online
systems because I disagree with you.

So, it probably balances out.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost