From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: On Indian Civilization being the oldest..
Keywords: aryan, dravdian, caste system
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:32:20 GMT


     My comment is a short one. I've included the whole article
     in order not to distort the context.


In article <BxoDKM.Lpn@cs.psu.edu>, narayana@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Kuram T Narayana) writes:
> In article <1992Nov13.203720.10653@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> akash@sol.berkeley.edu (Akash R. Deshpande) writes:
> >Again, only using following as an occasion for discourse:
> >
> >>Vedanta you do not need if your purpose is material; life.
> >
> >This is clear. Europe did well materially without Vedanta. However,
> >this does not imply that Vedanta ignores material well-being. For example:
> >in Taittiriya Upanishad, when the disciple commences his spiritual quest,
> >he is told "Annam na nindyaat, tad vratam" - thou shalt not ignore food,
> >this is your commandment unto action, where in Vedantic Sanskrit, food
> >means matter (annamaya kosha - material sheath, etc). Bhrigu goes on to
> >discover as Brahman, in order, the self of vastness, the self of mind,
> >the self of life and finally, the self of matter. His ultimate realisation
> >was of Brahman in matter. At the end, his teacher agains reminds him:
> >"Annam na nindyaat." In Isha Upanishad we are told to live a 100 years
> >doing verily works: "karmanyeveha karmani jijivishechchatam samaha."
> >Yagnavalkya was told to take a 100 lean cows and return
> >to the teacher when they grow to 1000. The Gita is a commandment to action
> >in the face of moral difficulties. And so on ...
> >
> 
> It is true that many aspects of vedic life have material elements to it.
> But my thought is that you can have them without drawing from vedas.
> We go to vedas for our daily life, because it gives us the necessary
> values. 
> 
> I can cite Gorbachev's visit to Vetican. From a society founded on
> Nasthika philosophy, a commie goes to a preacher and invites him to
> his country. Gorby did that for the reason that his society had
> no moral values to draw upon; people were alchoholics; no family
> life; divorce rates were high; crime and curruption were rampant.
> 
> Having said that, it is the weakness of the material system they
> had, and more importantly their assumption that the labour in a
> communist state will arrive at its own values after the overthrow
> of capitalism. If we compare why the invading aryans looked for
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> structure in thought, perhaps (in hind sight) they needed a 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> social structure.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(1)

         Please see below.

> >>                                                           But if
> >>your objective is to liberate yourself from your bondage
> >>and seek the Brahman, then that is a plausible way. It is precisely
> >>that aspect that has kept the civilization looking upto the vedas,
> >>in spite of consistent attempts to defile them.
> >
> >And it is precisely because our civilisation has kept going to the Veda
> >and Vedanta only for liberation and moksha, that we have grown weaker.
> >Here, in this world, while doing works, one has to attain such liberation
> >as possible. Moksha and nirvana are but an escape from or postponement of a
> >more complete realisation which is possible concretely only in the material.
> 
> The reason that we have four stations of life in society is to wnsure
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(2) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> that a completely satisfied material soul seeks liberation of the self
> from matter. That is particular way. But there is nothing to prevent
> a rigorous study of the brahman in the material life itself. In fact,
> Ramanuja regards achieving discrimination as part and parcel of Moksha.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(3)^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     It appears that since you say 
            [1] " the invading aryans were looking
                 for structure in thought, perhaps they needed a social 
                 structure"
                   
           [2] "the reason we have four stations of life in society.."
           [3]  "Ramanuja regards discrimination as part and parcel
                 of Moksha".
    You are supporting the caste system. If you would clarify whether
    the above statements of yours are an indirect admission that caste
    system is or was necessary and a logical developement of 'aryans' ,
    then I'll have something to say. I remember that you were also
    telling us how Hitler sent people to Kashmir to 'breed' pure
    aryan race. I'll post my view once i hear a response from you on this
    topic.  

> 
> If we only reagrd seeking Brahman is the only aspect of life, then 
> we are essentially following Buddha in whose time many youthful
> men and women took sanyansa, thereby  affecting the normal life.
> That is perhaps one of the reasons for the fall of Buddhism (atleast
> from what I have read).
> ...kt
> >
> >>...kt
> >
> 

      Regards
      Selva Selvakumar

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