From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas betray?
Reply-To: ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO)
Organization: HFSI, McLean VA.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:59:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.235003.4413@rosevax.rosemount.com> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes:
>tke@shep.att.com (Tom Epstein [415]) writes:
>:
>: I would almost expect it to be taken as axiomatic that persons who
>: ferverently behave in a manner which Jesus (based upon what
>: Christians themselves believe were his teachings) would condemn
>: should not be assumed to be Christians, barring any evidence other
>: than their claims.
>
>That's the problem!  Christians can't agree on jesus' teachings, and
>therefore can't agree on what Jesus would condemn.  If they could
>agree, then they wouldn't have spent all that time killing and
>torturing each other for not being good christians.  Thankfully,
>secular law prevents that today, but they still claim that those other
>people aren't "real" christians.

You can make the same point about most groups and reach the same
conclusion.  Are Reagan Democrats "real" Democrats?  Are Clinton
Republican "real" Republicans?  In the end, the only definition
that counts of a Republican or Democrat is one who is registered
as such regardless of their belief.  So a Klu-Klux Clan president
can legally say that he is Republican, but since his beliefs are
diametrically opposed to what Republicans normally think, his
opinions are not generally researched for the core beliefs of the
Republican Party.  And I would suggest that a Christian is one who
thinks that they are following Christ regardless if some of their
beliefs are in variance with other Christian beliefs. However, if
someone claims to be a Christian and then ignores the core beliefs
of Jesus, although they may be called a Christian in name, their
actions are there for everyone to see and discriminate.

>
>: Of course Jesus is reported to have said it better:
>: 
>: 	"... by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matt. Chap. 7: Vs. 20)
>:
>
>Then the operational definition of christianity seems to become "that
>which produces good fruits."
>
>So, somebody who is kind, generous, etc. is now a christian?  That
>will be a shock to a lot of buddhists, muslims, hindus, wiccans,
>shamanists, samaritans (you remember that one don't you?  And yes,
>there are still a few samaritans around), jainists, pantheists,
>naturalists, humanists, and so on.  Some of the kindest, gentlest,
>most generous people I know are devout atheists.

This is of course faulty logic.  If I say that holy Christians
always yield good fruit, I cannot make the statement that all
people who yield good fruit are holy Christians.  What I can say
quite logically, however, is that if I do not yield good fruit,
than I am not a holy Christian.  And that is how people can
disriminate between someone who falsely claims to be a holy
Christian and one who truly is one. 

>Christians seem to spend a great deal of time acusing each other of
>not being christians.  Who should I believe?  Father MacGuiness told

Perhaps you should reflect upon it and form your own opinion as to
what being a Christian means.  Should you really let the
conflicting viewpoints of other people to discourage you from
doing so?

>
>People have accused me of being hostile towards christianity, but how
>am I supposed to react when christian groups declare a holy war on me
>and talk about fighting battles against me until they win (and I
>lose)?

I would advise you to start forming your opinion of Christianity
from reading Jesus's teaching themselves just as I would advise
someone to form their opinion of say the Moslem faith by reading
the Koran, not the newspaper accounts of what some governments and
people who are Moslems in the world are doing.

>Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Place me on a BUFFER


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