From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:19:41 GMT


In article 5Eu@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>In article 6IE@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>>>In article 7@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>>
>>>The argument is pathetic - compelling!  Why so?  You are however correct
>>>about when the Jews became a majority in Jerusalem.  However, recent history
>>>is important and that is what we are considering.  The only reason the Arabs 
>>>were even a majority is because foreign occupiers (like the British or the Turks)
>>>prevented free Jewish immigration.  Just look at the British White Papers, 
>>>especially the White Paper of 1939.  This is essentially what is important.  
>>>Thearabs became a majority artificially - only because the Jews were held back.
>
>>I think you are about the most ignorant poster on t.p.m for quite a while.
>>Let's see you find some figures to back up this stupid claim.  Alternatively,
>>find one professional Israeli demographer who supports you.  (You will fail,
>>because Israel is a world leader in demographic research.)
>
>You seem to rely on "figures" to answer every argument.  It doesn't take figures

Yes, figures are better than myths any day for me.

>nor a great genius to realize that a comparison between how the Arabs migrated
>to Palestine and how the Jews did is not equal.  You certainly aren't denying
>that the British White Papers restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine.  I
>certainly don't need to rent a copy of Exodus to know that Jewish ships were
>turned back from Haifa port and sent to internment camps while the Arabs
>simply had to cross the Jordan River (if you can even call the Jordan a
>river - at some points it flows more like a creek). 

Even under the restrictive conditions of the White Paper, Jewish 
immigration into Palestine exceeded Arab immigration.  That's what
the official statistics show; if you have evidence to the contrary
you should post it.

I have several times stated that I strongly disapprove of British
war-time behaviour concerning the Holocaust, so you won't be
able to get me on that one. 

>By the way, name calling is the last refuge of a non-thinker.

So stop calling your political opponents "racists".  

>>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
>>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
>>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
>>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
>>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
>>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
>>>depressed area.
>
>>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  
>
>What evidence do I need?  Where are the great provinical centers, institutions,
>or schools established by the "Palestinians" in the great amount of time 
>during which you claim they lived in the land.  You certainly know that some
>of the largest clans on the West Bank, like the Ja'abari and Masri clans,
>derive from Iraq and Syria respectively.  What evidence do you possess which
>claims that the Arabs who lived in Palestine had lived there permanently
>throughout all those years?  The facts on the ground certainly don't reflect
>that.

You have heard about a few exceptions and want to believe they
are the rule.  Here are the fractions of residents of Palestine who
were born outside Palestine at the 1931 census:  
    Moslems 2%, Christians 20%, Jews 58%.
Similar sorts of figures are available from the earlier Ottoman censuses.
If you don't believe these numbers, post your evidence against them.

>Anyway, the question is not who lived on the land, but who owned it.  If Arab
>squatters were disenfranchised, then I'm sorry - the land was not theirs 
>anyway.  Of the land now known as Israel, Jews who lived there owned a
>considerable amount more than Arabs who did. 

This is totally false.  Evidence please.

>                                               Anyway, almost 70% was owned
>by the Mandatory government and transferred to Israel when it became a state.
>If anyone disenfranchised the Palestinians, it was the the Arab states which
>invaded and occupied their land.
>
>Ed Shnekendorf.

Brendan.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast