X-Envelope-to: nettrain@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.nettrain
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 11:08:00 CST
From:         NETTRAIN <MILLESJG@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Tips on ftp training (combined posting)

----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:09:00 PST
From: drobison@library.Berkeley.EDU (David Robison)

I like to offer a number of ftp sites to class attendees. This
way, the load on one site is reduced, and also, the users can
choose a site that interests them.

David F.W. Robison                      - Because a day without vi
drobison@library.berkeley.edu                   is like a day without coffee.


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:10:06 -0700
From: pope%teetot.acusd.edu%Sdsc.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Ellis "Skip" Knox       dusknox@idbsu.idbsu.edu says

>I'm looking for guides and advice on training users to use anonymous
>FTP.  I have an outline and such, and plenty of experience, so mostly
>I'm looking for ideas and perspectives more than a place to begin.
>
>But I do also have one specific problem.  I'll be in a room with 20
>users at 20 machines.  If everyone tries to FTP to the same place, we'll
>have problems.  How have trainers dealt with this?  Every approach I
>can think of seems to present its own difficulties.  I could give each
>person a different place to go.  I could use a projector and just have
>them watch me do it.  I could try to find a place that would accept
>20 simultaneous logins (!).  Or I could cancel class.  :-)
>
>Any ideas?
>

Some thoughts...for what they are worth.

I don't know your exact set up.  However, assuming you have projection of
computer screen, I would do one example very slowly emphasizing

1) connection and login
2) moving around on remote system
3) escape to local shell for directory, etc
4) "getting" and "putting" files; file types (binary, ascii)
5) exit

As for what the hands on should be, do not have them all ftp to the same
place!
Give them two options and divide the class (ten and ten -- you said about
twenty).  Most places will accommodate ten ftps.  If you wanna be safe, use
three options.

I'd also recommend a nic like nic.cerf.net, nis.nsf.net, or nic.sura.net
and have them obtain some useful but small in size docs like Arlene
Rinaldi's
"netiquette" document.

netiquette.txt in /pub/nic/internet.literature at ftp.sura.net (~16k)
net-etiquette-sample.txt in /internet/readings at nic.cerf.net (~16k)
fyi_04.txt in /documents/fyi at nis.nsf.net ?? {New Internet User Doc}
(~90k)

The general idea is not to have 20 people downloading some huge doc like
the
"Internet Resource Guide" in its entirety (~850k) down a 56 kb (or T1 even)
pipe.

Also, spend a bit of time on these arcane suffixes .Z, .arc, .zip, .hqx,
etc
and what they mean.  I would beware, however, of doing a live download of a

xxx.tar.Z file and uncompressing and "untarring" in real time...Just
capture such a session before hand and show what happens...Along these
lines, try and
find out if you're dealing with UNIX, DOS, or MAC types and customize
presentation accordingly.  'Course when I do this, I almost never know what

sort of user environment they come from!

Also, be aware of the class room set up.  Let's say you're using Macs.  20
Macs
all connected via Appletalk to a single gator box is NOT going to give you
the
same throughput as twenty macs each with direct ethertalk connection.

Oh...one final suggestion.  A nice gopher transfer (at least of straight
text)
is a painless way to get started!

Good Luck.



Jackwpope
pope@teetot.acusd.edu

"Hank and Lefty Raised My Country Soul"
                             -- Stoney Edwards


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 20:40:05 CST
From: rjs4808@usl.edu (Smith Richard J)

In my classes of 20 students with 20 machines, I would send them to 5 different
machines to get differnet documents.  Then switch 4 times.  Directions can
be placed on 3x5 cards to pass around.  That also works well with library
catalog demos--just asking who wants to go to Texas, Austrailia, Harvard,
Mexico, Louisiana, etc.

I never had trouble with  that would go to a major machine.  Time seemed
more of a problem.  Afternoon classes were bad compared to morning or
evening clases.  Because of both local and national usage.

Richard J. Smith
rs@usl.e


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:52 EDT
From: Gordon Dohle <DOHLE@Vax2.Concordia.CA>

re: Or I could cancel class.  :-)

Probably the best idea. Have them do it on their own and mail
you a one page summary. Be open to anguished cries for help
from your office terminal. Think virtually!

Gordon
Dohle@vax2.Concordia.ca


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:12:42 EST
From: "Andrew Brennan, LRC Manager" <brennan@hal.hahnemann.edu>

      Two quick ideas ... one might present a better solution than
   the other, tho - really depends on your site, etc.

      1.  Get the anonymous FTP site list - I don't know that it's
          still being maintained, but even the old info would be of
          general use for training purposes.

   (oops - ftp.list from pilot.njin.net /i/cant/remember  :^)

      2.  Alternately, (this might be fast, might be slow) have the
          local site set up for anonymous FTP access, put some dummy
          files there for your class to "get" and have them all FTP
          to the loopback (127.0.0.1) site.  People often joke about
          it being the fastest site around, but I don't know what the
          effect of 20+ users simultaneously accessing might have with
          the FTP daemon.

   andrew.  (brennan@hal.hahnemann.edu)


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:13:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeff Linder <jeff@picasso.ocis.temple.edu>

Someone asked how people handled a class with 20 users all FTPing at one
time.  What I did for a seminar was snagged permission to load up an
isolated UNIX machine on campus, put a sample file on it, set up an FTP
demon, and let everyone connecte to there..  Since it was all campus
traffic, the speed problem was negligible, and so was the load.  A better
solution would be to locate the UNIX machine (or whatever type you
choose), along the same end of the network where your students are...

Also, for some basic FTP info, there are a number of documents available
from Temple, either via anon ftp (ftp.temple.edu) or from the LISTSERV
(send the command INDEX HELP-NET to LISTSERV at TEMPLEVM).  There is a
standalone Macintosh document I wrote that covers several netbasics (and
is slowly being updated), and many other files of interest...

Hope this helps.


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:12:38 EST
From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)

>From: Skip <DUSKNOX%IDBSU.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>But I do also have one specific problem.  I'll be in a room with 20
>users at 20 machines.  If everyone tries to FTP to the same place, we'll
>have problems.  How have trainers dealt with this?
>
>Any ideas?
>

Why not let them FTP to their own machine?  Create some dummy account
called "ftpdemo", and let them all ftp "to themselves" and snarf a few
files around.  Once they understand the basic operations, you can ex-
plain the differences between regular FTP and anonymous FTP.

This will have a few benefits:
        - It won't hurt anything if they screw up
        - It won't flood some remote FTP server with requests
        - You won't have to worry about usage limits

As an alternative, you could set up some local machine (a Sun workstation,
perhaps, or a 386 running Unix) for anonymous FTP.  It's fairly trivial
and well-documented; I used an AT&T 3B2/310 as the FTP server for my class;
I believe that you can set up anonymous FTP on a PC running NCSA telnet
(look in the documentation under "server mode".

--Wes


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:29:16 ECT
From: Martin Raish <MRAISH%BINGVMB.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

To get around this problem of having 20 people all trying to
ftp to the same site at the same time, I provide a list of
about 8 - 10 sites that I *KNOW* will work well, and ask
each participant to go to one that his/her neighbor is not
trying to reach.  It always works well.  Everyone has fun
comparing what they found, then they switch addresses.  I do
the same for telnet exercises -- select a half-dozen libraries
and ask everyone to select something different.

The key is to be absolutely certain that the sites are suitable
for beginners.  No strange files structures; reliable connections;
etc.  I test them all the day before just to make sure.  (Not that
things can't/don't change over night, but any site I haven't tried
in more than 30 days is always risky.)

-- Martin

Martin Raish                        "Computers are useless.
Main Library, Box 6012               They only give you answers."
Binghamton University                -- Pablo Picasso
Binghamton  NY  13902-6012


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 14:19:39 GMT
From: victor riefkohl <vitin@bitboa.mednet.af.mil>

Skip;

   I don't what kind of computer you have, but I use a small
program called "snoop" that allows the other terminals to
look at the console. Like I said I don't know what kind of
equipment you have. We have an AT&T 3B2/600G using Unix System
V Ver 3.2.3.

    I hope it helps.

Victor M. Riekfohl
Medical Information Systems Manager
36 Medical Group
Bitburg Germany

Internet: riefkohl@bitboa.mednet.af.mil
   or     riefkohl%bitboa.mednet.af.mil@nic.ddn.mil


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:51:46 GMT-0500
From: Sue Davidsen <davidsen@vienna.hh.lib.umich.edu>

>But I do also have one specific problem.  I'll be in a room with 20
>users at 20 machines.  If everyone tries to FTP to the same place,
>we'll have problems.


This will also happen when you teach gophering since most gophers are
on fairly small machines. What I do is have them watch me do it first
on the projector, then give each row a different place to ftp from.
That way their neighbor has the same exercise and they can help each
other. Make sure their instructions are very detailed so when they
get home they can duplicate the exercise.


Sue Davidsen
The M-Link Project
The University of Michigan Library
davidsen@umich.edu


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:55:26 GMT
From: harmo@valt.Helsinki.FI (TIMO HARMO)

>I'm looking for guides and advice on training users to use anonymous
>FTP.  I have an outline and such, and plenty of experience, so mostly

We have used gopher as a first step before getting to the dirty details
of ftp. You can use gopher first to search files of interest in ftp-servers.
If you have access to gopher, you could set up (ask your gopher maintanence
people to set up) links. We have to links, the first to WAIS-database
that has indexed readme-files from several places:

Name=Search ftp-readme's
Type=7
Port=70
Path=waissrc:/WAISes/byletter/F/ftpable-readmes.src
Host=mudhoney.micro.umn.edu
Numb=5

If you can not set up direct links, you will find the link
in minnesota under:
 Other gopher and information servers - Wais-based information
  - byletter - F - ftpable readmes
Or you can telnet to think.quake.com and use wais directly (or set
up a wais client to your site and use it)

The other link we set up was to a finnish ftp-site at nic.funet.fi:

Name=Ftp nic.funet.fi archives
Type=1
Numb=6
Port=70
Path=ftp:nic.funet.fi@/pub/
Host=nic.funet.fi

Probably there are lots of other ftp-sites linked to gopher-space.
(I hope, since it sounds quite foolish to direct 20 americans
to look at a finnish ftp-site)

It is much easier to use gopher to roam in the public directories
and look for read.me-files than to use ftp for the same purpose.
Archie is quite useless for novices IMHO, since you cannot really
discover anything new using archie.


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:49:19 -0800 (PST)
From: "David W. Tindall" <dtindall@paul.spu.edu>

I used both the "overhead projector" approach and the having all class
participants logon to remote sites. I think a combination of both worked
the best. I did a single FTP session (I used the same technique for telnet
and gopher) for one small file which took 2-3 minutes, and then handed out
a list of 5 or 6 sites they they could try themselves. If you give them
an explanation of why everyone shouldn't login to the same site -- we had
no problems in people spreading themselves out by themselves.

============================================================
*  David W. Tindall                                        *
*  Seattle Pacific University                              *
*  Computer & Information Systems                          *
*  Internet:   dtindall@paul.spu.edu                       *
*  Telephone & Voice Mail   206-281-2239                   *
============================================================


----------- Original message below forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ------------

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:23:11 PST
From: rtennant@library.Berkeley.EDU (Roy Tennant)

Actually, I've had up to 30 persons FTPing to the same location
during a training session. My advice is to pick a major site (such
as nis.nsf.net or nic.ddn.mil) that is likely to be able to handle the
load. You can use a site such as that to do a directed exercise that
you want all students to do. Then you can follow it up with some
selections of sites and files that they can retrieve. My experience
is that given a selection of locations, they will generally spread
themselves out naturally. The key is to give them a range of
interesting selections to choose from.
Roy Tennant
The Library
UC Berkeley
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU