From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.polyamory
Subject: Re: Implied sexual obligations of monogamy
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:10:45 GMT
	<l90cmuINN5p3@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
	<1992Aug18.150437.2667@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<l9l9lmINNl27@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Followup-To: alt.polyamory
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In-reply-to: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM's message of 25 Aug 92 21:31:34 GMT

In article <l9l9lmINNl27@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.150437.2667@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
>>In article <l90cmuINN5p3@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums) writes:
>>
>>>If I want
>>>to have sex with a living, breathing human being, and my monogamous
>>>partner refuses to put out, I believe a problem exists.
>>yeah, but the only problem is in your head. learn how to masturbate
>>and stop coercing people.
>If masturbation was equivalent to sex, men would not be chasing
>after women.  Men and women could just do it themselves and just have
>friends -- screw this intercourse thing...(*straight face*).

Indeed, masturbation and sex with a partner are different, both
physically and emotionally.  However, I believe the point is that sex
with a *coerced* partner is essentially masturbation with someone else's
body.  I certainly feel this way, because the difference (at least for
me) that makes sex with a partner worthwhile is the communication and
caring, and if the other person is just having sex because they feel
obligated rather than because they want to, then I'm not getting that.

>There is no coercion involved.  If I am in a monogamous relation, and
>sex gets interrupted for some period of time, unless there are
>extenuating circumstances, I will consider the relationship as open or
>ending.  This is a black and white -- not coercion.

It depends on how you define "coercion."  Actually, I would not use
"coercion" myself, since that implies a lack of choice.  However, I
would say that the person is not being given *much* choice - if you say
"have sex with me or I'll leave you" and they don't want you to leave,
then they don't have any other choice, since you have only given them
those two.  Under those circumstances, I would certainly find it
difficult to generate much actual desire for sex, and I would definitely
regard it as my partner masturbating with my body.

>If someone, however is in a polyamorous relation, and 1 person
>in the group opts for no sex, it only immediately has to affect the one
>person -- in the sexual dimension. 

This suggests that there will always be someone who *will* have sex with
you, in a polyamorous relationship.  As has already been pointed out,
that is not true at all, and, indeed, possibly not all that likely.  In
fact, this is a problem with the whole argument - there seems to be an
assumption that if you had NOT promised monogamy and you wanted sex and
your partner didn't that you could just walk out and get some sex.  From
all I hear, it doesn't work that way at all.

In addition, please note that the monogamy agreement (as I understand
it) is NOT that A agrees to monogamy in return for B giving sex.  The
agreement is that A agrees to monogamy in return for B agreeing to
monogamy.  Again, a premise of this argument (monogamous partners must
provide sex) seems to be that one person wants monogamy and the other
wants sex, so they agree on some sort of sex-for-monogamy deal.  I don't
think that is what really happens, though.  I would suggest that if
anyone here would agree to be monogamous in return for sex whenever they
want it, they should state that explicitly at the beginning of the
relationship.  Of course, you might have a little trouble finding
partners, but at least everyone will understand the "ground rules."

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn