HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:42:50 GMT

In article <3833@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> silverm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Jeff Silverman) writes:
>bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>
>>In article <CFMRBYYR@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Melanie Wertz) writes:
>>>
>>>I was born Jewish and I had an Orthodox Jewish education.  I have abandoned
>>>Judaism because I came to recognize that it is sexist to the core.  The
>>>Tanach is a patriarchal body of literature which completely invalidates the
>>>history, experience, and contribution of women.  Jewish law, at least
>>>Orthodox Jewish law, is degrading to women.  Is there anyone out there who
>>>feels the same way?
>
>>Let me try to understand: If you believed that the Bible
>>is the word of God, how could God's words be degrading in any way ? I
>>understand that you have felt a contradiction  between modern Western
>>value system and the Bible, but if the Bible is the word of God why did 
>>you choose the Western values over the Bible's ?
>
>>>
>>>Melanie 
>>>
>
>>Dov
>
>Let me try to understand.  Here is a woman, obviously well educated and
>intelligent, and she has developed some negative feelings about a value system
>which she has grown up.  Now, you come along and try to argue with her
>rationally.  I understand why you would do that, because that's the way you
>and I have been trained and inculturated (inculturated is a fancy word for
>absorbing what your culture tells you).  Well, you aren't going to address
>her feelings if you deny them or try to deal with them logically!

Please elaborate on your statements. I assmued that an intelligent woman
could benefit from  rational thinking to sort out difficulties in her 
belief-system, even if her feelings indicate otherwise. Under what 
conditions do you suggest that an intelligent person should abandon 
rational thinking ? What would that person rely on in such cases ? 


Dov
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * Yeshu ? *
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:48:37 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University

In <9210141733.AA22568@ptms_dev.sbi.com> gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:

>emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>> But many Jews DID see enough in [Yeshu] to proclaim him
>> Messiah in the first century.

>Well, going by that standard, I guess the trinity will have to
>fight it out with Sun Myung Moon and L. Ron Hubbard.

That Jews followed Jesus does not make it right, but it is simply
a statement of fact.  History is there for us to learn from. 
So those that would deny these simply facts,  that Jesus was a Jew 
attacked the standard religious practices of his day, and had
a following among Jews, are bound to miss out on the lesson.
By the way, that description fits well with the leaders of the
Hassidic movement.  The big difference with Jesus is that his
teachings became a basis for something completely different that
he seems not to have intentioned -- a worldwide religious movement.
 
>It is a tragedy that so many Jews get involved in these cults,
>but it is more a testament to their ignorance of our rich
>tradition.  Most of those joining cults have not had particularly
>"Jewish" upbringings.  They are generally not well educated in
>Jewish ideas and texts.  J4J, for example, preys on this type of
>Jew.  They know their arguments can be easily refuted by someone
>with a strong Jewish education, so they usually shy away from them.

Many Jews that follow fundamentalist movement have little or no
awareness of Judaism.  However, to make that a blanket statement
is, in my opinion, a bit too simplistic.  There are several Jews
who, although well versed in Jewish thought, chose varying religious
beliefs including Buddhism or Christianity (in one of its various
manifestations) or even atheism.  Lack of Jewish education is not 
always the main motivation in these cases.  

>even in earlier days many Jews thought they knew who the
>Mashiach was.  But when the potential Mashiach died without
>the necessary signs appearing, they knew it was over.  Get
>the job done right the first time or your contract will not
>be extended.  There is no n+1 "coming" for n not equal to zero.

You ignore what suffering will do to people.  It is not always
a purely intellectual/rational decision to choose a Messiah.
Messianic movement have always flourish in times of greatest
uncertainty and stress.

>Those who remained were either fooled or they consciously rejected
>Jewish tradition.  Either way, they can in no way support their
>rebellious decision via Judaism, at least not honestly.

After the Holocaust, many became atheists.  Not out of "rebellion"
but out of suffering.  The same happened in Messianic movements,
whether Jesus, or Bar Kokhba, or Shabtai Zvi.

>-Don Gertler
--
Eli Chiprout
Dept. of Electronics
Carleton University	
emc@doe.carleton.ca	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: The Holocaust (was Please!  I need your help etc.)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:37:34 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.131411.10933@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>
>The Holocaust shattered the belief of many Jews; it strengthened
>the belief of many others.  It left no Jew untouched.
>
>My objection to AAP's statement was not that his beliefs may (or may
>not) have been shattered by the Holocaust, but by his trivializing
>the Holocaust to a quick one-line response.  Note the difference
>between your response and his.  Your response suggests you felt
>(and continue to feel) the pain.  His response was "Gotcha!"
>

I did not trivialized anything. Sometimes, you do not need more than one
line to express yourself. Sometimes, more than one line makes it ridiculous.
I needed just one line to say all I needed: The Holocaust has shown me that 
there is no god. Moreover, everytime I read something like Saal said, I think:
How can they say something like that, when in just one line I can see that 
they are wrong.
You want to have a god, be my guest.
But, it it clear to me that your objection did not come from my one-liner,
or that you have a problem with comprenhension. After all, what Michael has saidwas no more than expanding what I said in just one line.



>As you know, I disagree with your conclusions about what the Holocaust
>implies about G-d and our beliefs in G-d.  But your response is
>reasoned, informed, and compassionate, not a one-liner.  And that
>makes all the difference.
>

You might try next time to read what is meant, and not how many lines it takes
to say it.


>
>
>
>-- 
>Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
>   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
>Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
>Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.

AAP
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: * jesus ? *
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:54:55 GMT

In <92120@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:

>In article <emc.718412200@noonian>, emc@doe (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>>All of this shows that there was never a clear picture of who the 
>>Messiah should be in Judaism.  The picture becomes even more cloudy
>>if we analyze the differences in Messianic concepts among 
>>Pharisees, Saducees, Karaites, Jewish Rationalists, Maimonides,
>>Jewish Mysticists, Conservatives, Orthodox, or Reformers.

>Which is no doubt why one of the key criteria is universal recognition!

"Universal" criteria?  And how is this universe defined?  I assume
to begin with, it excludes Christians.  So a large part of the
Universe is excluded.  Then I assume it excludes Jews who do not
accept any sort of Messianic speculation.  There's another part of
the Universe gone. Then it surely excludes any Messianic believing
Jew that does not agree with the majority of modern day Messianic 
beliefs.  Oops, there goes another part of the Universe, especially
now-dead Jews. Etc. etc. etc.  

If you sat down to define your terms more clearly you would not
issue such vague statements.  Your "no doubt" leaves me with
much to doubt.  I have to therefore agree with the Israeli 
government keeping Messianic fanatics at bay when it comes 
to the Temple Mount.

>-- 
>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
--
Eli Chiprout
Dept. of Electronics
Carleton University	
emc@doe.carleton.ca
From: lmk2@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 15 Oct 1992 00:35:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu


I did not post my name, because I ended the file without
putting a carriage return after my name, so the last line
was not included

Leslie


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: grstate@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Gavriel State)
Subject: URGENT: Need info about David Irving
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:54:12 GMT

Fellow Netters:

The local Neo-Nazi contingent has invited the notorious revisionist
"historian" David Irving to come to speak in our city sometime in
november.  The Canadian Jewish Congress, the local Jewish community, 
and a number of other groups are helping to organize protests, etc., 
so things are under control in that respect...

I have been given the oppertunity to write an article about the situation
in the Engineering Society newspaper, and am looking for any kind 
of precise information about Irving's exploits that I can.  If anyone 
on the net could provide me with any such information (along with info
in the "Institute for Historical Review" (?)), it would be very much 
appreciated.  I am asking here primarily because I have seen several 
extremely well done rebuttals of the neo-Nazi trash that seems to 
infect the Net on a fairly regular basis...

Oh - the reason 'URGENT' is printed in large, friendly letters in the
subject header is that the deadline for the article is tuesday.

Thanks in advance!


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: On "standard" books
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:05:18 GMT

[I have been trying to post this stuff last night, apparently
unsuccessfully. My apologies if you get it twice.]

In the last few weeks, I became engaged in a serious discussion over
Jewish/Polish relations. I think it was beneficial to al involved.
Now the news: my opponents (or should I say "discussion partners")
constantly refer to books by "Celia Heller" and "Lucy Dawidowicz" (the
latter must be some relative of mine, based on name :-)).
Tonight, I went to my public library, and guess what?
You guessed it: Celia Heller is not listed at all; ther are some scholarly
works by D., unrelated to antisemitism (like something about Mexico, etc.)
as we discussed here.
What gives? I wonder! I hear that in the USA, Heller is mandatory reading,
so its absence here is most puzzling. Any explanation, folks?

As a background: Edmonton is the capital of the province of Alberta and
has a population of 650,00 plus suburbs, totalling some 3/4 million
people. Not New York, but not a village, either.

W. Dobosiewicz

P.S. To Adam: I am working on it: as soon as I get something more than a
claim "Heller said so" I will oblige.

P.S.2. Heller is not highly regarded for credibility, as pointed out by
Mendelson:
[...]
malkodet. Yehude Polin 1935-1939" (1982). The most influential work 
of this kind is Celia Heller's "On the Edge of Destruction" (1977), now 
available in paperback and required reading in many courses on Jewish 
history in the United States. The title of this book expresses very 
clearly the author's belief that interwar Poland was a disaster area for 
the Jews. She believes, and so do other adherents of this camp, that the 
years 1919 - 39 were a rehearsal for the Holocaust period. The Poles 
pushed the Jews to the `edge of destruction', and the Nazis (with 
Polish help) destroyed them.

[...]

The basic attitudes expressed by Heller and other members of the 
Jewish camp have recently been challenged by a number of scholars. 
An example is the recently published book by Joseph Marcus, a Polish 
Jew, which is certainly the best single-volume treatment of Jewish 
history in interwar Poland [2]. Marcus's book is, among other things, a 
[...]

These quotes were extracted from a recent posting of an article writtem by
Mendelson some time ago. (Posted under my name)
[To Roger: you asked where to start; how about Marcus?]
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 10 Oct 92 21:30:22 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization

In article <CFMRBYYR@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Melanie Wertz) writes:
>
>I was born Jewish and I had an Orthodox Jewish education.  I have abandoned
>Judaism because I came to recognize that it is sexist to the core.  The
>Tanach is a patriarchal body of literature which completely invalidates the
>history, experience, and contribution of women.  Jewish law, at least
>Orthodox Jewish law, is degrading to women.  Is there anyone out there who
>feels the same way?

Let me try to understand: If you believed that the Bible
is the word of God, how could God's words be degrading in any way ? I
understand that you have felt a contradiction  between modern Western
value system and the Bible, but if the Bible is the word of God why did 
you choose the Western values over the Bible's ?

>
>Melanie 
>

Dov
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Perot Halts Engagement
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:44:02 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Oct13.214414.27894@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>Perhaps we should all try and find out his real reason.  First of all,
>>I have no idea if this rumor is true, and I don't think anyone else
>>here has any facts on the matter.  Second of all, it doesn't
>>necessarilly mean anything anti-semetic.  I know of plenty of Catholic
>>families that would rather die than see their children marry
>>non-Catholics, etc.  I don't consider that to be anti-semetic, and
>>neither should you.
>
>True enough, but how many of them hire private detectives to interfere?

I know of a few that would if they could afford to.

>I might also add that the whole panic about the survival of Judaism
>seems ludicrous to me.  Forcing people to be Jewish is not a good
>idea; that's how you make anti-Semites real quick.  My mother-in-law
>gave up Judaism and married a (lapsed) Lutheran; but her daughter,
>whom I married, is Jewish and says so and acts so.

Well, if you don't want to encourage conversion and you don't want to
discourage intermarriage, then you must resign yourself to be among a
dying nation.  I, for one don't want this to happen.  I'm proud of my
heritage and I would like to keep my family in it.  If that's evil to
you, oh well.

>>Let's not start badmouthing people without any facts, OK?


-- 
David Charlap         |"there aren't 50,000 things for which it's worth writing
dic5340@hertz.njit.edu| software; and the computer industry doesn't have enough
----------------------+ programmers to create that much good software.
Therefore, most of it must be worthless" -- Boris Beizer "The Frozen Keyboard"
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Adopted children
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:24:44 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio

In article <1992Oct15.164731.22793@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>> 
>> No one today can be 100% sure that they are Cohanim.  It would be a
>> great mistake for someone to assume that he is a Cohen based on his
>> last name, and any Rabbi would be sure to point this out.  There is a
>> family named Cohen in my shul who don't claim to be Cohanim.
>
>There are lots of reasons why a Cohen may not be a Kohan, depending
>on how far back one wants to go.  Some of the more recent ones:

>2) Getting the name at Ellis Island.  Lots of variants on this one.

My wife's grandfather(a"h), was given the name "Jacob Cohen."  And my
wife's mother was Sara Cohen.

However, Sara's brother, Sol, did some investigating and discovered
the family name was Kalton --  and so changed his name to Colton.
One reason is my wife's grandfather insisted he was not a Kohen.

Perhaps the immigration folks misheard Colton as Cohen.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: de@moscom.com (David Esan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 16 Oct 92 15:12:37 GMT
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford NY

In article <2677@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>People who defend O
>M/F = 9/0
>    David Esan

I object to my name being included here.  I did not defend Orthodoxy.  It
is sexist, and I can understand why many women object to many aspects of
Orthodox practice.  And yet I continue to go to an Orthodox shule, and follow
traditional practices.  Why?

I am a conservative.  Please note the small c.  I think change is acceptable
when done slowly, and after careful thought.  Judaism was created in a time
of intolerable practices against women by the other nations, and managed to
create a cultural system that allowed women more freedom than they were 
allowed under secular law until the 1950's.  You can't change a 3000 year
old system, that provided a positive force, overnight.  You need to examine
the changes, and make them in accordance with tradition and halacha.

Take the case of divorce.  Clearly a sexist regulation.  A man can give a
divorce to his wife, but a wife can't divorce a husband.  A wife can attempt
to force a divorce, but the man can obstinate.  A wife can get a civil 
divorce, and the man can require a lot of money for the get.  Is the solution
to allow the woman to give a get?  Is the solution to ignore the get altogether
and allow a civil divorce to stand in its place?  I think the solution was
proposed by the Rambam 900 years ago in his pre-nuptial agreement, and is
available today through a pre-nuptial agreement.  The solution is for both
sides to sign an agreement as a matter of course.

I did defend Orthodox practices from many of Melanie's original complaints.  I
find them repeated over and over.  "They say "shelo asani isha"" has been 
repeated from the 1960's without any understanding of why it is said. 
(Personally, I think that it is a reverse bracha like "dayan ha-emet", praising
God in spite of the fact that he made us men. :-) ).  While I have a traditional
household, with my wife staying home and minding the house and children, this
was our choice, and I am aware of what she does and what she gave up to do it.
Orthodox Jews do enumerate this each Friday night.  "She opens her mouth with
wisdom."

Chag Sameach.
-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17493 soc.culture.polish:3118
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:24:47 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia

roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>No, no, it is not one statement or mistake, lets be honest.
>>It is action that is well known in Canada, people over there
>>were fighting with that distortion for long time through
>>all accessible means. But there is apparent stubborn feedback
>>about that and we had voices from s.c.j. saying that entire
>>problem is closeed because it is proper to call those camps Polish.

>ONly on grounds of geography -- I don't think anyone argued that
>Poles built or operated them.

I know PERSONALLY people who agrued with ME that POLES BUILT AND
OPERATED DEATH CAMPS.


MB
From: 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (corrigible)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Perot Halts Engagement
Date: 11 Oct 92 17:07:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: QUCDN.92285.1307582893684
 <1992Oct5.124812.15752@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston


In article <1992Oct5.124812.15752@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
(samuel.saal) says:
>In article <1992Oct4.224749.17906@news.ysu.edu> aa324@yfn.ysu.edu
>(Marlene Miller) writes:
>
>>There was a discussion at our Sunday morning minyan that H. Ross Perot's
>>daughter was dating a guy. H. Ross found out he's Jewish.. and put a stop
>>to it before it got 'serious'.
>
>_IF_ this is true, is it a positive comment about Perot?  I'd say so.
>After all, protecting individual traditions, and helping prevent an
>intermarriage is positive as far as I'm concerned.
>
You can't possibly be as naive as you let on. If Perot called off a
relationship between his daughter and a Jew, it's not because of his respect
for the Jewish ban on intermarriage but because of anti-Semitism.

By your argument, Hitler was a great semitophile for banning sexual and
marital relations between Aryans and Jews.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein)
Subject: Re: Tanya and Secular Knowledge
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:57:55 GMT

In article <2946@ceylon.gte.com> sgutfreund@gte.com writes:
#Evolution: It is well known within biological circles that a major
#problem is the lack of a mechanism for evolution
#and mutation is a major weakness in Darwin's theory. In most of 
#the other sciences a theory based on observation evidence alone
#is viewed as significantly weaker than one that has well understood
#mechanism that lends itself to reproduction by others researchers.
#While mechanisms for evolution have been suggested, their has not
#been any observed instances of naturally occuring creation of
#viable new species in nature, nor is their a way to reproduce
#such results in the laboratory.

You are quite wrong. We have a number of observed cases of speciation
in the wild, in the past century, including the case of the Wallabies
in Hawaii, which is a classic example of speciation due to geographical
isolation.

I invite you to post to talk.origins, and request the various talk.origins
FAQs before posting further misinformation on this subject. Be forewarned
that there is quite a lot of text in the various files; not surprising
when the subject is one of the best supported, if not the best supported
theories in Science.

--Dave


-- 
Dave Weinstein
Internet: dweinste@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism (Take 2)
Keywords: Invectives
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:57:27 GMT

d89-mor@nada.kth.se (Monika Orski) writes:

>Leaving the Big Issues - like who is an idiot and why doesn't everybody learn to
>read and how are palestinians treated in Poland - to those who have the time to
>deal whith them, I would like to know your opinions on a topic releated to this
>header :

>For many years, the word "jew" has been considered an invective in Poland. It also
>have in Russia and in many other counties. In most countries/languages (eg
>english, french and swedish) it is no longer considered an invective, as racist
>ideologies has been widely rejected. As far as I know, this has not happened in
>polish (despite the fact that there are very few jews left in Poland or maybe
>in connection whith this fact?).

>Is this part of a Polish anti-semitism? I think it is.

>	m

I think so too. But, Monika, do explain how "a Polish anti-semitism"
differs from other antisemitisms, since it apparently deserves a
special name to set it apart.


MB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish