From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 30 Sep 1992 21:52:50 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bruce Tiffany:

> It seems to me the analogy is alike if one accepts your assertion that
> acceptance of Yeshua is tantamount to rejecting Judaism (!), since accepting
> Roe v. Wade is tantamount to accepting abortion.

Well?  Is it intellectually honest to call such a person
"pro-life" or not?  Please answer.

>  So if accepting Yeshua is
> to Judaism what accepting abortion is to being pro-life, then just as
> rejection of abortion characterizes the pro-life movement ...
> so rejection of Yeshua characterizes Rabbinic Judaism.

However, rejection of Roe v. Wade does *not* characterize
the pro-life movement; any abortion bill would meet their opposition.
Opposition to RvW is an effect of their fundamental
opposition to abortion.  Similarly, rejection of Jesus is an
effect of Jewish principles, as is rejection of Marx and Muhammad.

>RL>No, it's an effect of rejecting principles of Judaism and accepting
>RL>principles of Christianity.
>
> You mean rejecting one principle of Rabbinism (i.e., rejection of Yeshua
> as Messiah), and accepting Biblical Christianity/Judaism.

You have not shown that it is a principle rather than an effect
of other principles.  I've posted principles and derived rejection
of Jesus from them, just as I said.

>RL>Neither is opposition to Roe. v. Wade *THE* characteristic of the
>RL>pro-life movement.
>
> But rejection of abortion *is* THE characteristic, and Roe v. Wade means
> complete acceptance of abortion.
>
> And rejection of Yeshua is THE characteristic of Rabbinic Judaism, and
> trusting Him as Messiah means accepting Him.

The analogy is Jesus-to-Roe v. Wade not Jesus-to-abortion.  The
analogy to abortion would be "tenets of other religions."

RL>  They oppose other abortion bills as well, it's
RL> just that Roe v. Wade is the best known, just as Jesus was one of the
RL> best known false messiahs (with regard to Judaism).  Furthermore,
RL> opposition to pro-abortion bills is an *effect* of beliefs such as "life
RL> beings at conception so abortion is murder" and "murder is morally
RL> wrong."

> It's not merely rejection of Yeshua, it's rejection of those Jews who accept
> Him.  If what you're saying were true, then you would accept Jews who accept
> Yeshua just as you accept Jews who accept Schneerson, who quite obviously
> is no Messiah at all (nor ever will be).  It's not as if Rabbinic Judaism
> rejects false Messiahs, and Yeshua happens to be one of those.

No comparison.  Jesus is dead, having failed to bring about the
messianic redemption.  Rabbi Schneerson is alive, and still can
accomplish what the messiah has to do.

> Which of those false messiahs ever was "honored" with a curse,

Bar Kochba, who earned the appelation "Bar Kozeva."

>  and which
> followers of false messiahs were likewise banned from the synagogues and
> officially cursed as part of the liturgy?

Followers of Shabbetai Tzvi, Essenes, Boethusians, etc.

>  No, this honor is reserved only for the *real* Messiah!

Sez who?

>RL>However, accepting RvW indicates a rejection of pro-life tenets, just
>RL>as accepting Jesus as a 'man-god vicarious sacrificial messiah to
>RL>atone for original sin' indicates a rejection of Jewish tenets
>RL>and acceptance of Christian tenets.
>
>[Rabbinic Jewish tenets, not Jewish tenets.  You should try to be more
>accurate!]

Use of the term Judaism to denote what I believe is more accurate,
since placing Christianity within "Judaism" makes the
term "Judaism" meaningless.


> In the same way, accepting Yeshua means rejecting many of the tenets of
> Rabbinism regarding the Messiah, which were developed in opposition to
> Messianic Judaism long ago.

I'm beginning to think that "Messianic Judaism[sic]" is characterized
by a belief that Judaism is characterized by rejection of Jesus, since
you continually assert it without proof.


> Of course, you're trying to cast the whole analogy as if it were "tenets
> of Judaism" vs. "tenets of Christianity".  

It is.

How would you react to the following statement: "The only good
Jew is a Christian Jew."  That's the impression I get from here.


>RL>So I ask,
>RL>  Can a person fully support Roe v. Wade and call himself officially
>RL>  "pro-life?"  If so, why?  If not, why not?
>
> Trick question.  My reply is that RABBINIC JUDAISM IS NOT BIBLICAL JUDAISM,
> so we don't care what the rabbinic tradition -- which post-dates Biblical /
> Messianic Judaism -- says about Messiah Yeshua.

Please don't avoid my question by shouting your faith tenets.  An
answer would suffice.  At least explain why you consider it a
trick.


> Rabbinic Judaism (which you incorrectly insist is defacto Judaism) is
> characterized by rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.  This is not merely
> *a* characteristic, it is an overriding characteristic, as evidenced
> by the fact that any Jew who accepts Yeshua is rejected by the
> Rabbinic Jewish community, because the RJ's reject Yeshua.  This
> rejection is characteristic of Rabbinic Judaism.

To prove your assertion, you would have to demonstrate that
rejection of Jesus is unique.  The reality is that Judaism
rejects all the other religions, too.


> You can talk all you want about analogies and false messiahs, but the
> proof is in the actions.  Actions speak louder than words.  If
> Rabbinism is not characterized by rejection of Yeshua, then I expect
> you to welcome all Messianic Jews into your synagogue and renounce the
> curse against Yeshua and all His talmidim.  If you will not do this,
> then don't go telling me Rabbinic Judaism is not characterized by
> rejection not only of Yeshua but of all those who belong to Him.


I meant "Judaism is *not* *characterized* by rejection of Jesus."

You misread it is "Judaism is not characterized by *rejection* of Jesus."


R