HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:06 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, pusv1305@altair.selu.edu () says:

#I am trying to decide on an appropreate personal protection pistol and or
#shotgun?  I have looked at ballistics and energy on impack for different
#ranges.  I figure a maximum range of 30 yards, for this porpose.  I also live
#in a neighborhood where homes are close together, and thin walled.  For this
#reason I dont want something that will go through my house and the neighbors,
#ect.  I do however want one shot stopping!  

	You can't have it both ways, in fact, its hard to get it even one 
way.  Any handgun, shotgun, or rifle projectile will go through many walls,
and except for the 12 ga shotgun, nothing is a good bet for "one shot" stops.
12 ga with birdshot should reduce wall penetration though.

	There are several types of frangible pistol ammo, where the slug
is a hollow copper shell filled with birdshot and epoxy.  These are 
designed for low wall penetration.   PMC THV ammo is a hollow brass 
ring that is supposed to have the same effect.  They still add for
it, I don't know if it's available in every state.

#A possible might be the .22 Magnum,
#the ballistics i've seen rate it up there with a .38, but I havent seen many on
#the market.  I am not in a situation to get up if the first shot misses and
#beat the perp. over the head.  I'm open to suggestions.  

	I suspect .22 Mag would penetrate more walls (and people) than 
a .38.  Penetration is something like energy divided by frontal area:
.22 Mag has less energy than the better .38s, but it has only about 40% 
frontal area.  I've never fired .22 Mag in a pistol, but it's pretty
loud in rifles, and I imagine it would be louder than a .38 in a pistol


JD
From: betz%gozer@uunet.UU.NET (Andrew Betz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Buying bullets w/o loading data
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:56 GMT
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club

hi folks;

aways back i requested addresses for a source for lead 9mm bullets.
looks like the cheapest for me is master class bullets ($31/1000, ppd).
anyhow, i'm aware that seating depth is a critical factor in
reloading, but if i did buy bullets from master class, how would
i know how far to seat them (note: i'm new to reloading)?
i'd be happy to post the bullet weights and measurements.

drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
"Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer
From: sjo@sunsrvr1.cci.com (Steve Owens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:21:33 GMT
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY

In article <1993Jan7.182557.3900@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> you write:
#
#I remember reading an article about one that was in production and being
#used by police in Florida (I think).  It had a kind of drum magazine and a
#laser sight and held somewhere between 150 and 200 rounds of .22 LR.  In
#one shooting incident, the thing ate through the back of a car, the seats
#and took out the driver, I don't think they said how many rounds this
#took.  At any rate, word supposedly got around quickly and, pretty soon,
#it was sufficient to put the laser "dot" where the perps could see it to
#produce a quick surrender.

	I remember this article and the incident mentioned quite clearly
(I remember being *real* impressed with it at the time. :-)  Apparently
the crime was a bank robbery, and the officer put the laser dot on the
driver's door.  In a matter of a couple of seconds, the officer had
emptied the magazine.  When they check the bullet path, it had apparently
made a good-sized hole in the door, and put 7 bullets into the driver,
killing him.  If I remember correctly, they were using the (then new)
hyper-velocity round from CCI.

	It was a neat looking little gun, too.  Reminded me of the old
top drum mounted machine guns you always see in the gangster movies.
They were working on a civilian version of it, but I don't know what
became of it.

	Does anyone have a copy of the article, or remember what
magazine/issue it was in?

#-- 
#"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
#Though all the world betrays thee.
#One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
#One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
#


							Steve


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Read between the lines                             Steven J Owens @ CCI
 Criticize the words they're selling             (716) 482-5000 Ext 2867
 Think for yourself and feel the walls                 sjo@op632.cci.com
 Become sand beneath your feet." - Queensryche "Anybody Listening?"
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: DCM question
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:09:10 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <1993Jan11.171303.14083@ra.msstate.edu> mrr1@Ra.MsState.Edu (mark r rauschkolb) writes:
#	I just got my paperwork to "apply" for a DCM M1, and they
#require fingerprints.  I was wondering if anybody knows what happens
#to these fingerprints (or any other fingerprints that you need to 
#buy a weapon).
#	(Do they check to see if you are already on file, and then 
#discard them, or do you then end up on file with the FBI or whoever?

As  I remember once reading, the DCM sends the fingerprints in for
a "National Agency Check Request". Your prints are classified and checked
against outstanding wanted, fugitive and felon records. They are then
discarded.

I can't say what happens to prints used for firearm licenses, etc.
-- 
Donald R. Newcomb                * Oh please, Mr. Clinton, won't
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * you please just tax that other
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * guy and send his money to me?
From: x90hornbach1@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS availability
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:19:09 GMT
Organization: Western Michigan University

Just curious if anyone has found any good deals on SKS's lately.  I'm getting
ready to order two or three.  I called around a couple weeks ago but everybody
was out (gasp).  I would like to find some of the original military spec models
(with threaded barrels and milled triggers).  Anybody pick up one of these
lately?  The new shotgun news has a couple ads for them, but that doesn't mean
that there are any in stock.  Navy arms has some "good used" ones for $69.95,
but I'm kind of hesitant to buy a used gun without seeing it first.

thanks 
John Hornbach
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 18 Discussion
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:09:59 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <1993Jan11.164307.1736@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz) writes:
#was there a discussion on i missed? well, if there are any questions, my friend has one and i'll try to answer.

Oh, great, now you say something.  *After* I've left Switzerland...

-- Russ
-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 Magnum Semi-Autos?
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:38 GMT


AMT's Auto Mag II is in .22 WMR. Grendel has both a pistol and I
believe a carbine in this chambering.

Now's a good time to ask: Anybody have an address or phone number
for Grendel? Please E-mail. Thanks in advance.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:14:46 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

#Essentially, I don't think that the .40 S&W cartridge makes sense. 
#But what are the advantages of the 40 S&W over a hot 9mm Parabellum

Here's my two cents: none, that I can think of, however, my SO reloads
on my single stage.  She says that .45 is easy to do, but that 9mm is
very stubborn and nearly impossible to expand and resize with her strength.
I suspect it is the tapered 9mm case that makes the difference.

The obvious solution is for her to shoot .45, but on my .45 she has no
fun because it hurts her wrists, elbows and shoulders.  (I had a hard
time believing it, but she is half my size.  When she shoots my .45 
her hair flips up with each shot.)   The solution is that she shoots
the nine, I shoot the .45, and we reload for each other.  She wants a
gun that she can both shoot and reload, in case I ever die or something
I guess, and she likes the .40 cal firestar, so that is that.   Why .45
recoil is bad in my Astra, and .40 is ok in that little FS, I don't know. 

	Recently someone on r.g said he had a .40 FS, and the slide stop
was worn down (mushed) and had to be replaced with an aftermarket.  I
wish she liked 9mm, because then I wouldn't have to buy dies for that 
caliber which I once hated so much.   I also sure hope it is the straight
walled cases that make the difference, because I would hate to buy a .40
and find out that that it's no easier.

.40 is just a fat .380 +P+.		%^)	

Jim D
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:35 GMT


Dave Williams writes:
# The "brass" jacket on bullets is an alloy called gilding metal.  It is
#formulated specifically to prevent leaving smears in the rifling.  I'm
#not sure how it compares to more ordinary brasses, if you can use the


Gilding metal is 90 % copper and 10 % zinc. It still fouls the bore, but
perhaps less so than more typical brass compositions.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Muzzle-loading recommendations, please
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:17:36 GMT
Organization: Sun

I'm thinking about getting into shooting muzzle-loading
rifles.

I'd like recommendations regarding .32 or .36 rifles,
preferably Kentucky or Pennsylvania type.  Percussion
or flintlock.

Paper punching (and fun) is main intent, maybe some
small game later.

thanks


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:33 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

fountain@bach.udel.edu (Eric Randolp Benson) writes:

##	They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
##of more silly.  
#Not totally.  They describe the Mini-uzi pistol as having the best
#qualities of an electric drill and a pistol.  At least with .380, you
#don't have quite the recoil problem.

A friend of mine has a full auto Mac-11 in .380 complete with supressor.  
This is an imminently practical weapon.  There is essentially
no recoil and the sound of the bullets smacking a tree are louder
than the report.  The gun is steady enough that 2 and 3 round bursts
can easily be squeezed off - something almost impossible with its
big brothers.  At full chat, holding with one hand AND keeping the 
burst on target is pretty easy.  While the .380 is kinda puny shot
one at a time out of a pistol, it seems to be an ideal full auto caliber.
I've shot 9mm Macs and I owned a .45ACP one.  Neither were nearly
as fun to shoot nor as easy to control as the .380.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: pusv1305@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: INFO ON GRENDEL P-30?
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:56 GMT
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University


   Any Info on the GRENDEL P-30?

Thanks Ahead.
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:26:09 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> 1)  How does a designer retard the rate of fire in a SMG?
-> 2)  How come nobody can get 350 fps?

 Basically, you can go to a gas-operated system and various tweaks,
enormous massive recoil masses and/or springs, and so forth.  There have
been various systems employing annular grooves in the chamber, rolling
retarders, etc, but when you add all the extra doodads to slow the rate
of fire down, there's just that much more weight, expense, and things to
go wrong.  It's not that nobody *can* design a slow-rate SMG, just that
for the kind of cheap weapon an SMG is supposed to be, it's not cost
effective.


-> 3)  I assume cook offs are less of a problem for closed bolt
-> guns when a pistol caliber is used, and even less so when the
-> rate is lowered.   How slow/fast does it take to make a diff?

 I wouldn't know.  Mine shoots from open bolt.


->      They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
-> of more silly.

 Not at all.  It's roughly the same size as an M1911 .45, depending on
whether you retain the detachable stock, forestrap, and 32-round
magazine.  With my 16-round short mag, I can drop my MAC-11 into a
pocket.  Yeah, it's .380, but nobody says you have to shoot 80 grain FMJ
in it.  My normal reloads use 115gr bullets and would probably blow the
slide right off a cheap pocket pistol.

 The .380 is on the edge of controllability for accurate full-auto fire.
The M10 in 9mm isn't really a one-hand weapon in my book; it's simply
too big and heavy to point.  The .45 is a two hander, period, unless you
just like to chew up air.  (well, for me, anyway.  I realize there are
probably people here who can look down at Arnold Schwarzenegger, pat him
on the head patronizingly, and call him "skinny", but I'm fairly close
to the norm)
From: an4405@anon.penet.fi (Physics Smurf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:54:58 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service

Hello there!

I was just wondering why General Electric decided to revive the Gattling
principle when it designed the M230 Minigun. Was there any specific
military reason for its re-introduction or did they just think it a good
idea at the time?

Also, are there any US
(ex) military personnel out there who have fired a minigun? How does the
fire rate of it compare to a Hughes chain gun?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:09:53 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <9301080715.AA28636@hpfcso.HP.COM>, post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post) writes:
# Jim Heath:
#  >After our club meeting last night, one of our rifle shooters was asking
#  >about progressives for reloading .308 and .30-06.  I would be interested
# I have been checking into progressives lately and called Dillon to ask about
# the XL650.
# It can be set up to do 30-06 and 308.  According to Dillons "Blue Press",
# they have an automatic, electric case trimmer that mounts in the tool head


   I believe this would be possible but difficult. The only place the power
 trimmer would make any sense is at the resizing station. This is a problem
 for two reasons. First, you would have to lube all the cases and then
 pour them in the hopper (very messy). Second, the power trimmer doesn't
 decap for obvious reasons so you would need to manually decap your cases
 prior to putting them in the hopper. I'm not even sure the trimmer would
 physically fit on the tool head with other dies. Keep in mind it has a 
 rather large vacuum manifold for attaching a vacuum cleaner for sucking
 off the brass chips. I have my power trimmer mounted to a RL-550 tool
 head all by itself. I simply slide this tool head onto the press, trim
 and resize all my cases. Then I run them through the press again doing
 progressive reloading. During the second pass I have the normal sizing/
 decapping die backed way off to simply double check the neck and decap.
 You could, I suppose do the same thing with the RL-650. 

   I do seem to recall a picture of an older RL-1000 with a power trimmer
 mounted along with all the other dies. I'm not sure how they fit the 
 vacuum manifold though.



						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH 

Xref: sparky rec.guns:18979 talk.politics.guns:25953
From: asbestos@nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,talk.politics.guns
Subject: The Armed Citizen
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:04 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: Chaos


Folks,

I'm afraid that, even with the overwhelming response from the net (and boy
was I gratified, thank you!) I'm not going to be able to find the time this
quarter to both type in (the scanner pukes on it) The Armed Citizen from
NRA's American Rifleman, and to make enough money to pay the rent.  I have
been told that I need to spend more time at work this quarter :-), and my
other obligations are pressing.  I'm also really short on funds, so getting
an account on the NRA's bbs is out of the question.  If they have The Armed
Citizen on the bbs electronically, it should be trivial for someone with an
account on it and Usenet access to post it.

I'm sorry.

I really hope that someone else will take up where I left off, and post The
Armed Citizen to talk.politics.guns every month.



Mike
-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "I'll give you a call next time I pass
asbestos@nwu.edu       |  through your star system." 
                                        -- Cdr. William Riker
            A Libertarian and an NRA member.
From: SAPX@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Surplus Ammo
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:31 GMT

Rumors about what will happen after Clinton sez "I do" are
rampant--- A friend of mine who has been selling a couple
hundred SKS a year sez It's all over. He told me after Feb.
stuff coming in to the country is gonna slow way down. The
first thing to be cut down is the ammo imports from China.
Anyhoo,that's what I heard. Real shame with all that nice
stuff just waiting to come out of Russia---

                                           Steve
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR-15 in 7.62x39
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <9301041903.AA102262@rsv08.cslab-tgsc.amex-trs.com>, skimmel@amex-trs
.com (Steve Kimmel) writes...
#A few AR-15 questions.
#1. Can the lower receiver for the AR-15 in 7.62x39 (the model name escapes me)
#   be used with an upper receiver chambered in .223?

 Yes.


#2. Can the bolt and/or bolt carrier used in the 7.62x39 model be used in 
#   an upper with a .223 barrel?

 No. You should get a whole new bolt carrier assembly headspaced to the 223 
upper.

#3. The magazines that come with the 7.62x39 model have a 5 round capacity.
#   several people have commented that the regular 5 round .223 mags can have
#   the blocker removed.  Can the 7.62x39 mags be modified for the same result?
#   I seem to remember reading that the standard .223 mags could be used as-is
#   but that only 5 rounds should be loaded due to the effect of the case
#   taper.  Does the 7.62x39 magazine use a different follower designed for
#   that round or are they standard .223 magazines?

 Yes to the first question, you are correct on the second, the and no to the 
last one.
From: lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex  or ?
Date: 11 Jan 93 04:18:41 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

In article <1993Jan11.002206.197@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
#I wasn't quite clear about this. The supposed advantage of stainless is
#that it is easier to clean by just removing the grips and washing in
#hot, soapy water. I would not want to do this with blue steel.

I haven't had a problem with blued steel and hot soapy water (nor have
many thousand other shooter's I'd guess).  I use water as hot as it gets
from the tap (145 degrees at my house) and the metal gets so hot after
washing and rinsing that it almost dries itself immediately.  I do wipe it
off, run a couple of dry patches and a lube (T/C NaturaLube) patch through
the barrel, and fire a cap or two before putting it away.  The lockwork
and some of the brass furniture get a little BreakFree.  Bluing still looks.
-- 
Maurice               INTERNET:  lriggins@afit.af.mil
From: rpalmer@Think.COM (Ralph Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Flash light mounts and DAO for GP100?
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:28 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA


I was wondering if anyone has experience with the under barrel mount for a GP100
for a mini mag light flashlight with the pressure activated switch.  I have
one mounted on my shotgun and love it as it allows me to identify the target
and aim the weapon in the dark.  The little red H Ne lasers don't don't work
for me as I am pretty red blind.  My two options are to mount the mini mag
light under the barrel and use a two hand grip on my revolver, or get a 
bigger flashlight and use one hand for the light and the other for the 
revolver.  Are any brands of mounts better than the rest?  Does it make the
revolver so front heavy that it is difficult to shoot?

Is it possible to get a second hammer assembly for my GP100 and bob the hammer
and modify it so that it is double action only?  I would like to have the
option of swapping the hammers to retain full functionality of the weapon.

					Ralph Palmer
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:25:52 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1993Jan6.020048.19598@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#fountain@bach.udel.edu (Eric Randolp Benson) writes:
#
##	Someone else was telling me (not sure how much truth there is to it)
##tht you could either purchase or convert Calico .22's to full auto. It
##would give you a 100 round helical clip and low recoil, concealable
##package.  Don't know how true it is...
#
#	I didn't think of this, but the pistol version would be ideal
#for what I had in mind if it would be reliable.  However, I've heard
#some people say that their calico products were unreliable junk.


	CALICO came out with full auto versions a couple of years
	back. This entailed a _full_ redesign of the gun, the full
	auto internals are very different than the semi auto version.
	The review I saw claimed good controlability, but it was only
	reliable with the 50 round mags (in 9mm). 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu