From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:09:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.190827.3551@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.173202.3975@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep5.032105.10942@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>>>In <1992Sep4.174435.3715@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>>
>>>>>We have reached agreement!  The point of disagreement is that you 
>>>>>contend that Fielder is substantially responsible for the runs, and
>>>>>thf (with lots of agreement by daves and dave-wanna-bes) says
>>>>>that Tettleton, Fryman, Phillips and Whitaker on the whole contributed
>>>>		 ^^^^^^
>>>>>more.  Fielder just got more of the accounting entries called RBIs.
>>>
>>>>How did a guy with lower OBP *AND* lower SLG contribute MORE to his team's 
>>>>offense? In the BTW category, in 1990, Fielder had the highest SLG and OBP
>>>>on the team. In '91, he had the highest SLG. This year, he STILL has the highest
>>>>SLG of anyone who hasn't missed more than ~30 games (as of Aug 30).
>
>>>Mike, you're missing an important distinction here:
>
>>>1) Over the past year and 3/4, Cecil Fielder has produced more offense
>>>than Travis Fryman.
>
>>>2) Over the past year and 3/4, Travis Fryman has been a more valuable
>>>offensive player.  He has contributed more though he has produced less.
>> 		    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I'm sure you don't really mean this.
>
>>>The key to the difference in contributions is that the difference between
>>>Fryman and a replacement level shortstop/third baseman is larger than the
>>>difference between Fielder and a replacement level first baseman.
>
>>No, YOU miss the point. The OFFENSE does NOT care what position those hits
>>come from. NOBODY bats as a 2nd baseman, or catcher, or whatever. The hits,
>
>Wrong.  EVERYBODY bats as a 2B, or a DH, or whatever.  

So tell me, how many hits does Travis get with that big glove on his hand?

>>outs, doubles, runs, stolen bases, etc, are INDEPENDENT of defensive postion.
>
>True.  But...
>
>>Unless, of course, you are aware of some new rule that has eluded the rest of
>>us.
>
>It's an old rule.  You may have exactly one player from each position in
>your lineup.  
>
>That is, no matter how good your nine best hitters are, your lineup
>must contain a shortstop, a catcher, a first baseman, etc.  
>
>Now we move from rules to observations of real baseball: anybody who
>can play in the majors can play first base without hurting the team.  
>90% of major leaguers can't play catcher, though, and most can't play 
>middle infield either.  Although a homer is a homer is a homer, getting
>20 homers out of your shortstop improves your offense far more than 
>getting 20 homers out of your first baseman, because it's very easy
>to replace a first baseman with a better hitting one.  REplaceability
>is a component of value in baseball;  shortstops are not as replaceable
>as first basemen.  If Fielder went down, the Tigers could trade for any
>of about 30 players in the league and not lose much offense or defense;
>if Whitaker or Fryman or Tettleton went down, they;d have to sacrifice 
>some offense to fill the defense they absolutely need.  As Casey Stengel
>said, if you don't have a catcher, you're going to have a lot of passed
>balls.

Or plug in Phillips, or Trammell next year (how much offense did Detroit lose
when Alan went down the last 2 years? How much did they lose when Whitaker 
missed about 30 games each of the past 2 years?)

>> You MAY choose to say that a shortstop with a certain amount of hitting
>>is more valuable than a first baseman with a certain amount more, to his team.
>>However, you may not say he is a better offensive player. See Bill James if
>>this point needs further clarification.
>
>Further clarification: is Fryman gets hurt, he can become a first baseman.
>If Fielder gets hurt, he can become a coach.  Fryman's offensive *potential*
>is greater than Fielder's because his defensive utility/disutility will
>not force him out of baseball as soon.

??? Why would Fryman play first if Fielder is a better hitter?

>>As for the "replacement level" stuff, that's only relevant if you have such a
>>player ready to play. This is not always the case. Ask the Red Sox.
>
>No.  Don't ask the Red Sox.  That would be like asking Dan QUayle about
>farm parity.

I thought you were saying we should discuss "the observations of real baseball"

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - I'm only doing what the little voices tell me to do.