HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Re: MFN
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:06:25 GMT

In article <1eg84qINNabd@frigate.doc.ic.ac.uk> rap@doc.ic.ac.uk writes:
>From article <1992Nov19.125940.11065@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha):
>> Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be), but wasn't the whole idea of Most
>> Favored Nation status developed in the first place so that the U.S. could
>> use the US market as a lever to force other nations to meet certain
>> human rights conditions? In other words, I think the whole reason for
>> MFN is to tie trade to human rights.
>
>I thought that withholding MFN (i.e. imposing extra trade barriers) was a
>means of punishing nations the US was cross with.  There are fewer than a
>dozen nations that come in for this treatment, aren't there?  Several off
>the list have human rights records as bad or worse, they just haven't
>defeated the US in a war, occupied a US embassy, etc, or asked the US
>not to bring nuclear weapons into their ports.  I don't think you'd
>suggest that MFN was withdrawn from New Zealand for human rights reasons.

Yes, my characterization of human rights only was incorrect. But the larger
point I was making still holds: MFN was designed to put pressure on 
governments to force them to bend to the wishes of the US; it wasn't created
to promote trade with other nations.

>
>But back on the point, I'd suggest that free trade, with the consequent
>enrichment of China, is also the quickest way of destroying the CCP's
>bureaucratic/totalitarian state.  It's also a lot safer and cheaper
>all round than Cold War.  Certainly try for any improvements to human
>rights you can get on the way, by making them think you might withdraw
>MFN, but actually doing it would be disastrous.

Disastrous is too strong a word in my opinion. And remember that we know
that the (as you point out very expensive) Cold War tactics did help to 
cause the totalitarian regime in the USSR to crumble. We know that ruining
the economy of a nation forces a bad government out. What makes you so sure
that helping to improve the economy of such a nation will destroy its
totalitarian government. (I would like it to be true, I just want to know what
you base your conjecture on.)

Mark

>
>Ross


Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: yu@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Fan Yu)
Subject: Re: dating a guy from China
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:58:25 GMT

In article <1erhpjINNdoo@roche.csl.sri.com> kzhang@cisco.com (Kui Zhang) writes:
>Someone wrote:
>|> Hi, there:
>|> I am a student from Taiwan and I was dating a guy from China before.
>|> It seemed he liked me but he was afraid of falling in love with me.
>|> I was lost.
>|> would anyone give me a hint or any suggestions?
>|> Thanks!
>
>There's no catagorical difference between mainland Chinese and Chinese else where.
>First, all can speak (or read/write) the same language.
>Second, all have black hair/eye.
>Third, all are human beings.
>
>You got to do the analysis on individual bases.
>After all you know more about him because you have dated him.
>
>
>.kui

In the same fashion, I'll tell my students who come to me for a calculus
question:

	First, it's no different from the examples in the book.
	Second, all were printed with black ink on white paper.
	Third, all were expressed in English.
	
	A specific problem is unique in its own way.
	After all, you are the one who come up with the question, you know more
	about it than I do.

	So, get out of my office and think about it on your own.

Am I not the greatest TA on the planet earth?

My 2 cents to the girl with the problem:

	Forget about this guy and look for someone else. Someone like me.


Fan
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: DXP_ZLH_CCP@Central.china. (Deng Xiaoping, Jr.)
Subject: test from china
Organization: Chinese Politobeuro
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:01:22 GMT

HI there, IS the destination of this message America ?
If so, congratulate me please.  dxp Jr.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: What pride to take in being a Chinese?
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:29:19 GMT

The fact of asking this question implys that ours should be good and theirs
should be worse, at least there is a wish for it!
In real world ours are not necessarily good theirs are  not necessarily bad,
though we need to make ours better if there is room for improvement.
I am neither proud nor disgusted about the fact that I am a Chinese. Chinese
do have a lot of achievements and good charactors and flaws too. The important
aspects that all Chiese should bear in mind that we should not allow our flaws
become the reasons to have China or Chinese condemned to ruin, become the excuse
for others to abuse us in the name of helping us.
From: H.Wang@bradford.ac.uk (H WANG)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists  ?
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:53:10 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 90908648@ccw209


>        Let me ask you a question. Imagine someone in your family, maybe
                                    ^^^^^^^
>your father or mother, goes into business in China. After some initial
>success this relative finds himself in competition with some government
>official, and is winning the competition. The government official, in 
>fear of going out of business, arrests your relative and puts him in
>jail for 10 years on some trumped up charges. For example, your relative
>is accused of being a "counterrevolutionary". 
>
>       Now, in this situation, would you support CMFN? Or rather, wouldn't
>you support *anything* that might help eliminate such injustices?

IMHO, to have justice done in China, you need more than just pure 
groundless imagination.

In this case, could you post the name of at least one such person
who has been accused of being a counter-revolutionary solely due
to his/her bussiness activity? Then we can start some serious 
disccusion. 

Or your posting could be regarded as a perfect example of on what
ridiculous bases people pushing forward CMFN with a blind haste.

>       (Yes, I'm an American, and yes, America has injustices, too. That's
>not the point.)

I am a Chinese and I would like to see that you point be more
clear and responsible.

H.






 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.taiwan
From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists  ? 
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:37:40 GMT

In article <By0wAt.1x4@cs.psu.edu> echeng@phys.psu.edu (Eddie Cheng) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.154208.7485@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha) writes:
>>
>>	The loss of MFN (which I am NOT advocating) is not the catastrophic
>>disaster that many are making it out to be. No one is starving in China.
>>Most people have a decent place to live. The standard of living is quite
>>low, yes, but if it stays where it is, very few people will suffer the
>>loss of health or life because of it.
>
>	Well, if it is not going to cause disaster and people's living
>is not going to suffer, according to the logic in your earlier posts,
>how is it going to help forcing "bad" government out?  So won't it
>be all for nothing then?
>
>	As we have seen in Russia and South Africa, "bad" government 
>can be forced to out or change when the economy is ruined or collapsed.
>But unfortunately, we don't see any "good" government or social order
>can be built on such collapsed economy.
>
>>	The real suffering in China is due to the corrupt and authoritarian
>>government as it effects individuals who oppose it.
>
>	Well, Mark, I am sorry but I have to say that you don't know
>enough about the life in China.
>

Eddie, how can you say this??? I'm absolutely crushed.

Mark

>
>
>    Eddie


Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists ?
Supersedes: <92325.154302XXX100@psuvm.psu.edu>
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:53:19 EST
From: <XXX100@psuvm.psu.edu>

 >From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
 >Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists ?
 >Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:24:05 GMT
 >
 >In article <102663@bu.edu> lix@thames.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
 >
 >>I suggest a compromise between concerned UCMFN and CMFN'ers:
 >>
 >>1) Push China to release more 6-4 related prisoners; IFCSS should send
 >>a few GaoGans to China for this purpose, not for propoganda only.
 >>
 >>2) GaoGan JH Li told us, there will be a CMFN bill, no matter we CSS
 >>take what stands. I doubt this, but let us accept this as a compromise:
 >>No Chinese should push for a CMFN bill this year without knowing what
 >>will be the final version. And we all stop debating.
 >>
 >>3) If nonetheless, a CMFN bill is proposed, we all support IFCSS to
 >>lobby for making the conditions "well measured" as defined above.
 >
 >I think Lix's suggestion make sense. I think both blindly pushing
 >CMFN and blindly defending the UCMFN will cause China lossing MFN
 >eventually.

            Interesting point.

 >
 >We still upholding human right and insist that 6/4 Massacre was
 >wrong and should be corrected. We can show our sinceriry toward
 >the goals of both human right and fair trading status. If we the
                                    ********************

           US never says fair trade to other countries which are
           in debts.


 >people have tried our best while there is still no positive response
 >from the government, history will blame them.

            Another interesting point.
            Give everything to history.

            Sounds like watching it down the hill and saying
            I just pushed a hand at the tophill.
            Why cannot it stop by itself?

            Hard to believe that making more unemployment
            can improve Human Right in China.
            Hard to believe that worsening economy can improve
            HR.
            Hard to believe that the price of 6/4 needs more people
            to pay more.
            Hard to believe CMFN or NMFN can promote china market
            orionted reform.
            Hard to believe CMFN or NMFN is the best interest of chinese
            people & american people.
            Also hard to believe CG will accept the conditions imposed.


            Seems the MFN is the only killing weapon left to promote
            releasing political prisioners.
            This weapon may not be right on the target,
            even though you wish so.

            If you believed history, you might know how human right
            has been improved.
            The abuse of human right  can  hurt human right terriblely as well.


            X Xu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.china
From: gang@ms.uky.edu (Gang Li)
Subject: Re: What do we Chinese celebrate? (Re: Chinese, Are You Jealous?)
    <1992Nov19.144014.12003@ms.uky.edu> 
    <1992Nov20.020714.10474@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:52:17 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

yu@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Fan Yu) writes:

>If Xiao-lin really thinks what he wrote, he is well qualified to be a US
>citizen(whether he is is not up to me). I did not see anywhere that he showed
>contempt toward the working class people. What he meant to say was getting
>paid for what you have done is your right and you should exercise your right.
>Leaving your kids with your grandparents is not good for their development
>and you should try your best to spare some time from your work to stay with
>them. Going to extreme does not help convining people because working people do
>not go to the middle east to fight wars.

Not many people work 20 hours a day, and are willing to send their children
to their grandparents. But, if they have this kind of problem, that might be
that this is the only way they can do the best for their children. The contempt
I sensed was that "you plain people have no way to get a better life", and you
have the very reason to shame on them every day.
You know what they got when they ask for apology from Japan.

>One thing that I can infer from xiao-lin's post is that he thinks working
>for one's country is just a hollow slogan. My guess is that you are not 
>comfortable with this thought. No comment on my part.

This thought is too good for me to handle, I am just working for living and
I have no problem with those who label me as working for the country, this
makes me feel like a presedent. Of cause, I work for money.

>Of course what I have just reiterated is what ordinary Americans think.
>So please don't drag me into a war on whether ASian hard-working mentality
>is better for human race than good old American family values.:-)

If this is good, it should be kept as secret. I don't want to talk
about it either.

>Fan
Thanks for the cool air.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: echeng@phys.psu.edu (Eddie Cheng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: [ answer ] How is IFCSS's president elected?
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:37:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bxtnpu.6H2
Organization: Penn State, Department of Physics

In article <5c58ea52.1b2f0@digital.sps.mot.com> chen@digital.sps.mot.com (Jinfu Chen) writes:
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong.  In IFCSS election, I don't believe students have
>choice of electors who have pledged to vote for certain candidates.  Rather,
>they just pick someone to represent their school, and let the so-called
>electors vote for whoever IFCSS presidential candidate is.  Under this

	In almost all schools, they don't get to pick at all.

	Some may argue that the president of a school's LYH (CSSA) can
represent their school automatically.  But in most cases these presidents
were elected/chosen based on the understanding that they will serve
the local community, such as organizing dance parties, movies, so on.
Rarely did it have anything to do with deciding who will be IFCSS'
president or China's MFN status, etc.

>The US electoral system is fairly old and is based on the assumption that
>populace can not be trust.  The IFCSS election system, though established in
>modern time, is even worst than the US electoral system.

	But it may be based on the same assumption, though.  :-)


    Eddie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Foreign Teachers in China
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:57:39 GMT

In 1983 my wife and I taught at the Guangzhou Institute of Foreign Languages.
The experience is still vivid, and taught us a great deal about our own
culture and education system as well as those of China.

I'm curious to know whether some of the participants in this newsgroup might
want to discuss their experiences with foreign teachers during their years as
students in China. I don't want to direct the discussion, but it would be
interesting to know what your first impressions were, how you interacted with
foreign teachers as opposed to Chinese teachers, how the foreign teachers
responded to conditions in your school, and so on.

Of course I'd also love to hear the experiences of other foreign teachers in
China, but that's been heavily covered in a whole new genre--books about
teaching in China keep coming out. Maybe some former foreign teachers might
want to comment on some of those books...

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: wing@pegasus.com (Wing Ng)
Subject: PRC wants to abrogate Joint Declaration on HK
Organization: OSU Physics Dept.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:37:56 GMT

Copyright 1992 The New York Times
November 18, 1992  Late Edition  A1 and A11
China Threatens Hong Kong Treaty by Nicholas D. Kristof
 
>         Beijing,  Nov.  17  -- China  has sharply  escalated  its
> dispute with the British and Hong Kong authorities by threatening
> to  scrap  the 1984 agreement that promised Hong  Kong  continued
> political  and  economic  freedom for 50 years after  the  colony
> returns to Chinese control in 1997.
>
>         The  threat  was  made on Monday night  by  Deputy  Prime
> Minister  Zhu Rongji,  who was in London for talks  with  British
> officials.
 
In Black Society, they always want new joiners to prove their
toughness and demonstrate their "loyalty" by going out and murder
someone in a particularly grisly manner.  Now they want
soft-and-liberal ZRJ to demonstrate his "loyalty" to CCP's heinous
cause by performing this hatchet job.
 
Even back in 1983, during the PRC-U.K. negotiation on HK's future,
people were quoting this Bible metaphor:
 
Two women both claim a baby belongs to them, and the case went to
King Solomon.  The King took out a sword, and proceeded to cut the
baby in two, so that each woman can have 1/2.  One of the women
cried: "stop".  The King said, "you must be the true mother, you
care about the baby's well-being."
 
Sorry, the foreigner U.K. cares about our well-being (to some extent),
whereas the gangster group that now controls our motherland does
not.  It would rather let HK go down the drain than let it have
more democracy.
 
Of course, more proof is really not needed, that gangster group
perpetrated 6.4, right in its own capital.
 
Wing
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: achen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (positron)
Subject: Re: questions of the Korean WAr
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 08:19:15 GMT

In article <By3D1F.F55@acsu.buffalo.edu> dtwei@acsu.buffalo.edu (Danielle T Wei) writes:
>
>Well, although McArthur did indeed crush the Japanese, he used a tactic
>that could not be used against the Chinese. During WWII, he used ships to
>trap Japanese on island-forts and flattened them. But during the Korean War,
>the Chinese were mostly Light Infantries that could not be trapped very easily
>
>
>Yes, the Amerricans fought very hard (Hamburger/Pork Chop Hills)
>But the conditions were very bad. Korea during winter times is pretty cold :)
>Also, the Americans carried too many things to make them mobile, and thus
>did not fight very well on the Korean plains/hills. (I think the average
>American soldier carried 50 pounds to the Chinese soldier's 10 pounds)
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Yes, mostly Chinese Light Infantry.
>Yes partly by numbers (as the Americans want you to believe), but mostly
>by mobility. The Chinese army dumped its artillery at the Yalu river, and
>carried enough food for only a week when they entered the war.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Many American regiments were caught off guard during the confusion of the
>nights.. I recall a story in which an American soldier tells about how
>the Chinese appeared like ghosts, and were suddenly attacking them from
>every direction, even from the directions they expected to find friendly
>American regiments..
>
>


A question for those with more knowledge on military tactics.
Since the Chinese infantry did not carry much food, could this
be one reason why they pushed onward to Seoul, ... , to sack
the city for its food?

During the American civil war, General Sherman of the Union army
used a similiar tactic in his push through Georgia into Atlanta.
Sherman's army also did not carry much food and basically lived
off the land it invaded by plundering occupied cities of its
foods.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:38:48 EST
From: <XXX100@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Yang Baibing and China After Deng.
 <1992Nov16.174846.10199@news.acns.nwu.edu>

 >From: carl_@nwu.edu
 >Subject: Re: Yang Baibing and China After Deng.
 >Date: 16 Nov 92 17:48:46 GMT
 >
 >In article <BxtJz5.Go2@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
 >(xiao-lin li) writes:
 >> (deleted)
 >>
 >
 >Among the leaders in CG, I like Deng Xiaoping best. It seems to me that he is
a
 >non-communist among the CCP leaders. Compare to Mao, he is an angel while Mao
 >is a devil. I like him because he is practical and puts emphasis on economics.
 >I still remember his good economic policy in early 1970s that brought many
 >Chinese relatively better lives then. I hope he can live longer and thus give
 >China a period of time of stability and economic growth. It's more healthy to
 >pursue democracy and freedom based on the relatively developed economy.
 >
 >Carl

                  I don't like Mr. Deng very much,
                  because he doesn't like black
                  cat as much as white cat,even though
                  the black is more skillful to catch
                  rats while the white is much tamer.

                  X Xu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.china:30739 soc.culture.asian.american:10151
From: georgew@hspice.portal.com (George Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: mail-order bride
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:15:07 GMT
Organization: Meta - Software

In article <1992Nov18.043138.3802@jho.com> john@jho.com (John Ho) writes:
>kao@cae.wisc.edu (Chengheng Kao) writes:

>>On the other hand, many people gave up more just to come to american. In the
>>early day, a lot of taiwanese college girls will marry black american 
>>soilders (no racial discrimination or what so ever intended here) in order to 
>>come to american. Nowday, there are still many asian woman will marry old
>>american men for the same favor. It is sad but it is also reality.

>That reminds me of those mail-order bride ads on some newspapers.  I
>am so mad everytime I see those ads.  It is a major shame to all Asians. 

     Did anyone see the short skit aired on PBS recently?  I saw it
immediately following "1000 Pieces of Gold."  It was a direct attack on the
type of man who considers a mail order bride from Asia.

							George



-- 
----
George J Wu,  georgew@hspice.portal.com or georgew@metasw.com
Meta-Software,  1300 White Oaks Road,  Campbell, CA 95008,  (408) 369-5400
Never be the first to believe.  Never be the last to deceive.  ---  Chess
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Patriotism sucks (Re:  What the HK governor is doing?  Why?)
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 03:43:41 GMT

In article <By32sy.89H@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> xiong@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Bo Xiong) writes:
You have done a good work in denouncing patriotism. I consider you as some
what a spokesman for "D-fighters". There might be none-iedeal elements among
"patiotic"(I would not even call them patriotic, what those group are
advocating is just "please do not do harm to China"!) groups, 
as during Sino-Japanese War, anti-Japanese guearilla force
were disproptionally from wealthier Chinese, because there had more 
spare time and energy to join in. If you "D-fighters" denounce patriatism,
please do it oopenly, please do not tell the world that your anti-China
activities are only ment for CCP, not China. Please do not use China as
step-stone to advance your status in U.S., Please!
This is my least request for you, a Chinese once before. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china