From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Skopje's Swiss Dreams (was: MACEDONIA: A SWITZERLAND...)
Date: 17 Aug 92 08:46:08 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <1992Aug17.060220.19314@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>, by lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis):
> Need for update here.  Currently, Skopjeans have 6 MIG(20something) airplanes
> and about 40 tanks (given by Serbs to prevent Skopjean-Albanians
> from joining with Albanians living in Kossovo, in a case of Albanian
> uprise in that area).

Still not what you can call huge is it? As for another poster's likening
this to Germany in 1930 this really is just rampant paranoia isn't it?
Do Greeks believe that there is a clique of proto-fascists running the
Macedonian government? if so what evidence is there that this is the case.?

 
> Can you guarantee that there will be no terrorist activities against Greece
> supported by the Skopjeans? We have had enough.  We have paid enough.

Is this a statement that there has been Macedonian terrorisn directed at
greece in the past or a general statement about terrorism? If the former
could we have some examples? I can't remember this coming into the
discussion in the past and would be interested to have some data. What proof is there that such actions
were supported by the Macedonian authorities? After all no one seriously
believes here that IRA terrorism is supported by the government of the
Irsih Republic. At the moment given all the
rhetoric flying around I would fear Greek revanchist terrorism in
Macedonia as a more likely possibility.

> Can you eliminate the scenario that Skopjeans, Boulgarians, and Turks make an
> alliance and attack Greece simultaneously to free "Macedonians", "Boulgarians",
> and "Turks" from the Greek "oppression"?  (Hint: which countries support the
> Skopjeans economically and militarily?)
> 
Counter hint - which countries like to pique Greece from time to time so
would automatically recognise Macedonia anyway? Now Russia (and I think the Philippines) have recognised Macedonia are
they to be included in this doomsday scenario? Where is the evidence for
this even being thought of? Do you deny that ethnic minorities exist in
Greece at all? A recent article in the Spectator magazine talked of villagers in
Greece being forbidden to sing non-Greek folksongs, is this true?

> I would like to remind you that the EC and NATO have repeatedly refused to 
> guarantee Greece's borders against an attack from Turkey.
> In fact, the western European countries have refused to provide guarantees
> even when Greece is attached from the North.
> 

Possibly there are more important and *real* threats on their minds.

> Well, that's not what happens with Skopje.  Skopjeans claim that they are
> "Macedonians" (some of them claim that they are "patriotic descendants of
> ancient Macedonians!) but NOT Greeks.

Well that just seems to be accepted as true in the rest of the world
apart from Greece. let's not quibble about this, the lack of recognition
in the EEC is only because of worries about Greece sulking. It's
shameful, but diplomacy often is.

>  They also claim that Macedonians,
> including ancient Macedonians, were not Greeks!!!
>
Why exclamation marks this is a perfectly respectable, though debatable,
academic position.
 
> The best analogy with your example would be if French
> claimed that the Queen of England is a Frenchwoman,

Actually She's of German descent - no one seems to worry

> that there are French people in England who are oppressed,
> and that "Britain" should unite again with France (they may attempt
> to justify this version of history arguing that today's English are 
> descendants of Normands).

Some of them are. Have you any evidence at all that the Macedonian
government takes this line. I dare say some extremists there do, but
frankly I suspect Macedonia looses out to Greece in the extremist stakes
on this issue.

 
> If people of the UK feel flattered when other people use English symbols,
> why do not they suggest that the Republic of Skopje should be
> named  "England".  I guarantee that Greece will support such a
> proposition.

As a small nation fighting for its rights they seem to embody the best
of the bulldog spirit, I'd welcome them abroad. Actually part of France,
Bretagne, is called Britain, just as part of Belgium is called
Luxembourg. No one seems to be very worried about this.
> 
> BTW, how would UK people react if they saw international maps labeling
> the Falkland Islands as "Malvinas"?  Would they still feel flattered? 
> 

Actually we have to put up with it. We certainly don't go round
threatening never to talk to the Hispanophone world because they do
this. Perhaps that's because we have the confidence to know we're right.
The Falklands aren't really a good analogy. No one can deny that the
peoiple there speak English and wish to remain English, there is no
question of minorities. In that respect the analogy contributes to
Macedonia's side, Greece's claim to the name Macedonia seems as tenuous
as the Argentine's claim to the Falklands. Why shouldn't the world recognise a group who are
united in wanting to be Macedonians - especially when they speak a
language called Macedonian?


> Panos Lolonis

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek