HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooters force police to bahave
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:18 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <Btn3sz.5sA@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes:
[ deletions ]
#Guns Review therefore made a formal complaint against the CC to the
#Clerk of the Police Authority to the effect that the CC was negligent in
#his duties. The outcome of this was that the Firearms Dept was given a
#god shakeup (including their ceasing to impose unlawful questionaires
#upon applications). The Dept is now much more efficient. The Police
#Authority, however, refused to accept the charge of negligence. So it
#appears that the shambles was nobody's fault, and no one is to be held
#accountable. 

Please explain a bit more about "refused to accept the charge."
Is it lawful to refuse to accept the charge?  Can the Police
Authority make its own rules?  Is there any appeal possibility?

Obviously the law applying there is different than in the US and
I am curious to find out just what is allowable and what is not.
Thanks.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 s&w questions
Date: 29 Aug 92 13:50:21 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#
#Rule #1 for gunfighting: Bring a gun.

Quite true.  But does anybody know rule #1 for KNIFE fighting?



Bring a gun!   :-)

                               -- Alane --
   /-----------------------------------------------------------------\
  /   NOBODY shares my opinions,    |    "I am a jelly doughnut"      \
 /    especially not my employer    |    -- President John F Kennedy   \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mini-14 accuracy
Date: 2 Sep 92 01:27:04 GMT


Several people recently have mentioned disappointment in the accuracy of 
the Mini-14, especially if compared with an AR-15 or clone. For their 
information, I cite an ad that has been on the front page of Shotgun News
for several issues (at least) recently:

"MINI-14 OWNERS: Our match quality heavy bbl. conversion will turn your
'Mini' into a one M.O.A. weapon. SASE for brochure to: Accuracy Rifle
Systems, PO Box 13772, Odessa, TX 79768"

I know nothing else about this; anyone out there have any experience with
this conversion? Has it been reviewed in any of the gun mags? (I don't
recall seeing any such review.)

Regards, Will
wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil OR wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil

[MODERATOR:  I saw that and wondered too.  I'll be pleased if someone
can post a summary of this.]
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CA gun laws -- in cars (waS Re: Travelling help)
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:59:25 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#jca@crash.cts.com writes:
#
##I personally just have my .357 revolver in a locked case within easy
##access with two speedloaders ready.  I'm complying with CA law and I
##know exactly which key on my keyring will open up the padlock on both of
##my gun cases (both locks are keyed alike).
#
#Excellent advice.  Also, I have a key ring that sepparates with a
#quick squeeze in the middle.  Have the ignition key on one side and
#the lock key on the other, that way you can open the case without
#shutting of your engine ... or your escape options ...

I pretty much have to drive with only my car keys on a seperate keyring in
the ignition given the weight of my keychain.  ;)  I am thinking though
about having the key to my gun cases duplicated and kept permanently
inside of my car so I don't have to fumble for the key on my keyring if
such a situation occurs.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : crash!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@crash.cts.com  |
 ** UUCP    : crash!jca          |           SIG-Sauer P228
 */
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 13mm Mauser T-gewer
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:26 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug26.203459.29120@watson.ibm.com> breslau@watson.ibm.com (Art Breslau) writes:
#I have located a 13mm Mauser T-gewer (Tank und Flieger Abwehraffe) A.K.A. "Tank
#killer". Only about 15,800 made, weighs in at 39 lbs. I'm looking for chamber
#dimensions. handbook of cartridge conversions doesn't list them. Old Western
#Scrounger doesn't have ammo. Will need to have RCBS make up dies, then try and
#find brass to make up, let alone the projectiles. Checking with BATF on its
#status. Last I saw, thought it was on curio list.


It looks like this would fall under Sect. II of the C&R list Title I Firearms
which lists "Mauser-all rifles of any caliber made prior to 1946"

This, of course, gives you no greater freedom than any other Title I rifle
-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: hancock@iex.iex.com (David Hancock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:05:31 GMT
Organization: IEX Corporation, Dallas

In article <1992Aug26.025939.6705@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#In article <1992Aug24.224445.20992@inmet.camb.inmet.com> tas@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tom Sprott) writes:
#}I'm not a rec.guns reader, but the news story of Mr. Weaver (the fugitive holed
#}up in Idaho) has made me curious about something.  His original federal weapons law
#}violation was the possession of a sawed-off shotgun.  What is the purpose of 
#}such a gun, and why is it illegal where a normal shotgun isn't?
#
#It's reasonably concealable and has a wide dispersion pattern of shot.

What length barrel is necessary to achieve a *wide dispersion pattern*?
Open choke 18" barrels don't spread that much (compared with lore) -- are
we talking about a 6" or so "snubby"? (I didn't see the news story).

-- 
David Hancock -*- IEX Corporation	       | Email: [uunet!]iex!hancock
		  1400 Preston Road, Suite 350 | Voice: (214) 612-2600
		  Plano, Texas 75093
From: Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:16 GMT

In article <17egf9INN1ec@agate.berkeley.edu# ho%helen.CS.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Kinson Ho) writes:
#I have a couple of questions for owners of the Beretta 92FS (9mm, fullsize)
#
#a. Are you happy with its performance?  Have you had problems with it? 
#   How many rounds have you put through it?  (I am interested in long
#   term reliability.)  Do you have the blued or stainless model?
#   Is rusting a problem?

I have both models (black and stainless).  Both of them were Italian
made.  I prefer the Berettas over my Sig P226 for personal reasons only
(such as pointability and feel) since both are excellent guns.

I have no rusting problems on both Berettas.  The P226, however, suffered
rusting on the slide top (where I rack).

#   Two local ranges have told me problems with the 92:
#
#   One range (which does NOT rent the 92) claimed they have seen 
#   *two* incidents of cracked frames (blew up?) at their range.  
#
#   Another range (which rents the 92) said the reliability of the 92
#   is very poor.  Both of their 92s were out of service on that day.
#   In particular, I was told that some metallurgy
#   problem with manufacturing made the US-made (blued) models 
#   prone to failure with the locking "lugs", and that they were not
#   happy with the service of Beretta-USA regarding this problem.  
#   (It's NOT the cracked frame problem.)  They said they no longer
#   stock the US-made model (tho they will order it), and suggested the
#   Italian-made (stainless) model.  This range happens to be the only
#   one in the area that rents the 92.  9mm from Sig, Glock, S&W,
#   Browning, Colt and Ruger can all be rented easily. 
#   (Strange coincidence?)
#   
#   Does anyone have similar experiences?  If there is any truth
#   in these stories, has the problem been corrected?  The local 
#   gun stores will not say anything.

I have used hot ammo through my Berettas (+P or hotter).  These
rounds were both commercial and reloads.  I have not notice any
cracks or loosening of parts on the guns.  But then again, both
of my Berettas are Italian models.  I don't think there is much
difference between the US-made or Italian-made guns.

It's hard to comment on range rental guns since any person can rent
them and shoot his/her own "newly developed super hot" reloads.
If I were to experiment with +P+ or hotter reloads, I would rather
rent a gun to try it out first if I can find a range which rents
guns.

#c. Does the 92 feed the popular hollowpoints without jamming?  

No hangups so far in over 5000 rounds in both Berettas.

#d. If you had to do it over again, would you choose the 92?

I did.  I bought the second (stainless) when it came out.

-tt
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:37:42 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <5201@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:
#
#I know this, and you know this.  I don't think it's a good idea,
#personally, but I was just repeating someone else's arguement.  It was
#one of the "expert's" reasoning, from an article I read several years
#ago.

Let me add a quick followup to this: I went through the stack of old
magazines that I had saved (I thought that the pertinent article was in
one of them).  Unfortunately for my arguement, I couldn't find it.
Since I have no way to document/verify what I said, I'm going to shut up
on this topic.  Simply put, I'm retracting my earlier statements.

(hoping that I don't look TOO much like a phule....) 

	[MODERATOR:  No more so than I look like one here on a regular basis...]

--
David "Jester" Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:09:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Aug29.220207.20498@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#In article <viking.715041392@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
##fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#### ...a reference to short-barreled shotguns used in the
####military.
## ...
##	A better source might be the Germans themselves.   ...
#
#  "The 12-gage (18.5 mm) shotgun has been a controversial weapon in the
#twentieth century.  German military authorities condemned its use by
#American troops in the trenches of the western front during the First
#World War.  During the Second World War and the Korean conflict, the
#shotgun was carried mainly by troops guarding prisoners of war, but in
#the Vietnam War and in the Israeli battles in the Middle East this
#devastating weapon has been employed for close encounters of a hostile
#kind.  Generally, these shotguns were modifications of models available
#commercially.  Among the first of these altered shotguns was the
#Winchester Model 12 pump which had a barrel jacket added that also
#allowed the standard rifle bayonet to be used.  More recently, the
#Marine Corps has used the Remington Model 870."
#
#  From SMALL ARMS of the WORLD by E. C. Ezell, pg 179 section on
#Combat Shotguns.
#
#--henry schaffer  n c state univ


The Winchester Model 12 holding 7 rounds from the factory must have
been quite a frightening prospect for a German private rushing the 
trenches in WWI!  Also, despite TV & movie hoopla glorifying the useage
of the Thompson sub-machine gun by gangsters and G-men during the 20's
and 30's, the Model 12 was the primary combat long gun in the streets.

BDW
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:14:42 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <bakc.98.714205186@giraffe.ru.ac.za>, bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN) writes:
# My dad served in the RAF in WW2 and relates that part of their basic 
# training involved being taught to fire the dreaded Sten gun.   The group of 
# rookies were taken out to the range where a series of straw dummies had been 
# set up.  One at a time, they were taken out to the front of the group by the 
# sergeant-instructor and told to let off a full magazine on automatic.
# 	Things went well until one very dim individual got to have go.  The 
# idea was to fire short bursts at each target.  Unfortunately when he took 
# his finger off the trigger to shift to the next target, a little Sten 
# gun foible surfaced -- the sear didn't engage and the thing kept firing, 
# whereupon the rookie let out a despairing cry of "Sarg!!!" and began 
# *pivoting around* from the hips towards the back of the firing line.  Never 
# have 30 blokes -- including the sergeant -- moved so fast!!!   Fortunately, 
# no one was hurt but the NCO's language was quite something!
# 	This left everyone a bit rattled, cos later on another poor chap 
# adjusted his grip during a firing sequence and forget the 2nd of the Sten's 
# idiosyncrasies -- his left forefinger got too close to the ejection port 
# and it got the tip nipped off by the bolt.   All in all a successful day?
# 
# Cheers,
# Keith 

You left out Sten idiosyncrasy #3: a friend served with the British
Army occupation forces in Germany just after WW2 -- if you dropped a
Sten on the ground, butt first, just right, it would occasionally
start firing, and continue until empty.  He only managed to do it
once, but that was enough.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:30:08 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


OK, everyone else is doing it, I guess it's my turn.  I have vague
recollections about learning how my dad's Browning HP works (guess what I shoot
now :-) ).  That was when I was under 10.  Later, when I was around 17, I
went shooting at a local dump with Dad's Browning HP and S&W .38.  Now, I
remember that the Browning had about a thousand safeties (magazine, thumb,
half-cock, when you're young, that's a lot!).  I don't think he ever taught me
much about the revolver.  I knew the revolver couldn't have a magazine
safety, and there is no thumb safety, and, guess what, there's no half cock
safety, either!!

I had it cocked, then I was going to wander, so I put the hammer down half
way (no sense needlessly rotating the cylnder).  I was holding it at my side,
finger away from the trigger, and the revolver bumped my leg.  I heard a
blast and looked down to see a lage hole in the sand about two inches to the
right of my right foot.  I remember distinctly thinking, "Hm, I guss there's
no half-cock safety, either.  Time to put away the gun and go home."

So, the moral of the story is:

Don't carry a revolver "half-cocked" (is that where the phrase "going off
half-cocked" comes from?)

If you're going to teach your children gun safety (and you should), teach
them about EVERY gun they might come in contact with!  After all, at 10 years
old, a gun is a gun is a gun....


<I do hope my dad hasn't figured out readnews yet!>
-- 
                                Edward Hefter
                   Trying To Survive the Ga Tech Experience
                         vapspgd@prism.gatech.edu
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:50 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <5018@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:
# 
# In article <9208202033.AA25010@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
# #
# #Besides, I handload because factory .357 mag ammo is "too hot" and may
# #over penetrate, whereas my handloads are lighter and are of less risk
# #to innocent bystanders. 8^)
# 
# According to Ayoob, it's not a good idea to handload if your handloads
# are either hotter than, or as hot as, comparable factory loads.
# However, if you are loading "cooler" than factory loads, this is ok,
# providing you can PROOVE that your loads are cooler.  Two reasons, for
# in a courtroom: you can say that you thought that the factory ammo was
# inhumane or too deadly*, and you can also use the reasoning that you
# are: you want to reduce the overpenetration risk to bystanders. 
# 

Where did Ayoob tell you this?  I'm not trying to be inflammatory,
but you simply cannot cover every court of every jurisdiction with
that statement.  (Nor do I think that Ayoob has ever had to deal
with issue in Arizona - not being sarcastic, just making an
observation -- Ayoob (and others who specialize in court
testimony) won't have any experience in place where you don't have
to defend yourself agains a justified shooting because no-one
will have ever called him to court in those places.)

Also, if you were preparing a training course for the whole
country, would you base it on the places where not getting 
harassed is easiest or the place where not getting harassed
is the most difficult?  (I think your students would want to
know how to "survive" the most difficult places.)

Interesting thought: I'd like to know where guys like
Ayoob go most often for self-defense testimony and where
they go least often (or never).  Anyone care to him personally?

-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:13 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Sep2.224223.23067@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
#
##In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
##my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
##me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the
#
#What kind of vel can you get out a 22 mag with one of those short
#barreled things? 

I have a vague memory of a magazine article a decade or so ago that
tested .22 Mag in pistols.  It came up with something like 50 fps
higher than .22 LR.  

#Would the .22 mag be appreciably better than .22 LR stingers out
#of the same size gun?

The Stinger has a light weight bullet to get higher velocity.

The Mag has a 55 grain bullet.  I'd go with the 50 fps higher and
the 55/40 or 55/29 heavier bullet ...  And don't forget that, when
pressed against the belly, any excess gas/energy goes into the
guts of the opponent 1/2 ;-) ...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: weba@vipunen.hut.fi (Veijo P L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Taurus 3-way safety (was Re: .40 s&w questions)
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:31 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In <1992Aug27.204044.15320@ttinews.tti.com> reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:

#In article <1992Aug25.235550.21651@nsc.nsc.com> nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:

###they have a 3-position safety-decocker.  I forget the ordering of the
###positions, but remember misgivings about hitting the safety too hard in
###a tense situation and ending up with weapon unable to fire.

#Doing the wrong thing with it will indeed render the gun unable to
#fire.

I have a Taurus PT99 with decocker. It is one of those first ones produced,
so it doens't have a spring to lift up the safety/decocker after the
use of decocker. But no matter how hard I pull down the lever from safe
to fire, it can not go straight down to decock. Well, there are a lot of
differences with different guns of the same model...

-- 
	   Two sides to all of us, with me you get 'em both
				   
			  Veijo L{nsikunnas
		       Veijo.Lansikunnas@hut.fi
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Wanted: Shotgun thread from a while back / other sg basic info
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:54:58 GMT

A few months ago we had a pretty fact-filled thread going on 
shotguns; I'm hoping somebody saved it and could mail me a copy.

Any other articles, of course, in the nature of a general intro
to the concept, would be equally welcome.

Thanks!

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: tumbler
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <59975@mimsy.umd.edu>, purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes...
#So, who knows about both rock tumblers and brass tumblers?  I already
#have a Dillon tumbler for polishing up brass.  My wife wants to do some
#project concerning rock polishing in the fourth grade class she teaches.
#Even though my colleagues assure me I have rocks in my head, I do not 
#know much about polishing stones, etc.  So what's the scoop?  Do I already
#own what my wife needs? (My guess is not, but it would be nice to find
#out otherwise before I plunk down more cash on a different unit.)  What
#different media would I need if the Dillon *is* appropriate?  Thanks 
#much ---

 Call:

  LORTONE Inc. 
  2856 NW Market St
  Seattle, WA 98107
  206-789-3100

 They sell rubber drum rotary type tumblers and media that are ideal for rock 
polishing.

 How do I know?? My first brass tumbler was a Lortone. It worked good till I 
outgrew it. And yes, I polished a few loads of rocks in it.

 Unfortunately the Dillon can't handle rock polishing as you need to tumble 
rocks in a liquid slurry media that would more than likely leak out of the 
Dillon.

[MODERATOR:  As followup .... I got a couple very nice notes from folks who
basically didn't see why the Dillon couldn't be used, and finally a note
from someone who pointed out the obvious, i.e., that I should call Dillon to
ask them.  Did so, and they observed it could be used, would probably get 
dinged up a bit (but it is, after all, a Dillon and hence guaranteed....),
but they figured it would take forever to polish rocks in a vibratory unit.
So it sounds like I may be calling the place suggested above.... Thanks one
and all for the input.]