HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:12:43 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1g85b5INNs8a@copland.crhc.uiuc.edu>, pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan) writes:
> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #AIDS is something that gay men did to themselves.
# 
# No, AIDS is something gay men saved you from.
# 
# Are you familiar with the canaries coal miners took into the mines with
# them?  More sensitive to odorless poison gas, they would die before the
# miners, giving the miners a warning and time to escape.
# 
# Well, AIDS was out there.  People had it and were dying of it.  It was
# all over the third world, and out there, it was spread primarily
# through heterosexual sex.
# 
# So, AIDS hits America.  Luckily for you, it hit gay men first.  And during
# all the years it took America to wake up and take notice, gay men were
# bearing the brunt of the epidemic, dropping like flies.  During all the
# years it took to identify the virus and come up with a test, gay men died.
# 
# Do you *really* think AIDS would never have hit America without gay men?
# WRONG.  WRONG.  WRONG.
# 
# It would have hit a few years later.  But it would have hit the blood banks
# first, spreading through hospitals and operations into the straight population,
# then infecting their lovers, spouses and children, all with that nasty
# multi-year incubation period to let it spread.  It would have cut deeper
# into the hemophiliac population, and it would have hit the young straight
# singles crowd like Hurricane Andrew.

I'm always impressed with the ignorance that Paul Ryan spouts.
AIDS was out there for many years.  There are frozen tissue samples
from the 1950s that show people were dying of AIDS.  It didn't
spread quickly, however, because most people in our society didn't
do three things that were essential to its spread:

1. engage in casual, anonymous sex with dozens of different
partners per night;

2. shoot IV drugs;

3. engage in sodomy with dozens of different partners a year.

# But did it?  Nope.  Your canary died first, and you got out of the mine 

No, the canary kept gorging itself on poison, and finally died.

# in time.  Clayton Cramer, you should get down on your knees and give thanks
# to the gay shock troops that protected your wife and your daughter from AIDS.
# Has anyone in your family ever needed blood?  In an operation?  In childbirth?
# Know why they're not dead now?  Because someone gay died in their place.

Why is AIDS a threat to people who need blood?  Because homosexuals
and IV drug abusers lack the self-control to stop engaging in 
anonymous casual sex.
# 
# Blaming gay men for AIDS is stupid.  It may make you feel better, but it's
# no brighter than hating a dead canary in a coal mine.
# 
# Paul Ryan                  (pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu)     1308 West Main St.

Only if the canary is running around setting fires.

-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:02:48 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <4848@wet.UUCP>, mhi@wet.UUCP (Philip E. Murphy) writes:
> 
> >Someone has a funny notion of "attack."  AIDS is something that
> >gay men did to themselves.
> 
> Again your anger/hatred against gay men comes through.  The facts are that
> aids is a heterosexual disease worldwide (Africa / S. America).  And it is
> becoming a hetero disease here as well.  You point to condom non-use among

A hetero disease, if you are a prostitute or IV drug user, you mean.
If you aren't in those high risk groups, your risks of getting AIDS
are tiny.

> homosexuals but does'nt that just echo society as well? Yes it does.  The
> media is only now acknowledging aids devastating Africa and South America,
> but still people like you like to blame gay men.  With a retro-virus like HIV,
> it was bound to affect any population (sexual), with multiple partners.  Most

Fortunately, most straight people are at reasonably self-controlled.
Unlike homosexuals.

> gay men and women I know would like nothing more than to find that signifi-
> cant other.  Like the strayt community, the gay community also has people

Don't read soc.motss, do you?

> Phil Murphy                                          (415) 285-2595 voice 


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Originator: mda46419@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 08:20:09 GMT

In article <13645@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
#So why are so few straights getting AIDS, except through contact with
#prostitutes and IV drug abusers?

"In Feb. 1992, the World Health Organization reported that 10-12 million
 adults and 1 million chilren worldwide had contracted H.I.V., the virus
 that causes AIDS, and that 2 million cases of AIDS had occurred since
 the disease became known in the early 1980s.  About 90 percent of
 new adult infections resulted from heterosexual intercourse.  W.H.O.
 estimated that by the year 2000, up to 40 million people would be
 infected"

		-- 1993 World Almanac, p. 177, first column

Granted, the 90% figure above isn't broken down into categories,
but I think that that implies that "so few" is an understatement.

-- 
Michael D. Adams       (aka StarOwl)	| Of all sexual aberrations, chastity
StarOwl@uiuc.edu       (NeXT mail OK)	| is the strangest. -- Anatole France
anon.46@pax.tpa.com.au (anonymously)	|------------------------------------
an692@anon.penet.fi    (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv
From: Ron.Landers@f851.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Landers)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Message Clutter
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:58:34 GMT


        I'm a new user, and this BBS program is also new to me.  One
particular thing I've noticed that I don't like is the amount of clutter the
posts contain.  I assume that part of this "problem" is unavoidable, with
respect to the initial NET information that apparently appears in every
message, regardless.

        However, one thing I've noticed that IS under the control of users
is the practice of quoting from the post one is responding to.  It seems
that virtually EVERY post contains way too much quoting.  For example, I've
seen countless messages where the user quotes a long passage from the
original post,followed by their ONE LINE comment.  Is this really
necessary?

        To exaggerate my point.  It's like quoting an entire chapter of "War
and Peace," and at the end of the passage, typing in a line that says: "I
really like this chapter..."  Couldn't you just say; "I really liked Chapter
Seven of War and Peace," and spare us the entire chapter?

        For a good majority of posts on this net, it seems that if you
SUBTRACTED OUT the lead-in NET stuff, and SUBTRACTED OUT the lengthy TAG
LINES,and also SUBTRACTED OUT the QUOTES from the original post, what you
would be left with is a few lines of actual commentary!

        When I first logged on here and began reading the posts, it seemed
like there were dozens and dozens of posts, that ALL quoted major sections
of the same ORIGINAL POST, and we're talking a screen full or two.  So, I
had to wade through the same message over and over and over again, as quoted
by all the responders to that post.  This is ridiculous.

        In my opinion, the feature which allows you to "grab" partial or
entire quotes from an original message is mostly a CRUTCH.  It comes in
handy sometimes, but some of you seem to be ABUSING the advantage, to a
point which seems to smack of intellectual LAZINESS.

        Well, that's my two cents' worth...



 * Origin: Central Computer Banks - mcws.fidonet.org (1:102/851)
From: stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins))
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:16:23 GMT
Organization: Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: orchid.ucsc.edu

In article <13606@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <4848@wet.UUCP>, mhi@wet.UUCP (Philip E. Murphy) writes:
>> 
>> Again your anger/hatred against gay men comes through.  The facts are that
>> aids is a heterosexual disease worldwide (Africa / S. America).  And it is
>> becoming a hetero disease here as well.  You point to condom non-use among
>
>A hetero disease, if you are a prostitute or IV drug user, you mean.
>If you aren't in those high risk groups, your risks of getting AIDS
>are tiny.
>

Yes- and it is this type of thinking that finally causes it to begin
spreading amongst US heterosexuals.  It may already be doing that, becuase
most people will not be tested and most will not know for a decade.  Wake
up and start thinking about possibilities.

>Fortunately, most straight people are at reasonably self-controlled.
>Unlike homosexuals.
>
And where do you get the idea that 'most' homosexuals are not self-controlled?
You have no capabilities in making correct and even remotely valid judgements
or conclusions, becuase you take a set of very limited information and try
to apply it to all cases.

Your basic fallacy lies in concept of 'mere assertion'.  You accept a position
that is not sufficient for anyone else to believe.

>> gay men and women I know would like nothing more than to find that signifi-
>> cant other.  Like the strayt community, the gay community also has people
>
>Don't read soc.motss, do you?
>
>-- 
>Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
>C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.


And you don't read alt.personals.(poly,ads,bondage,misc) or you would
see what the heterosexuals are up to on those newgroups.

Your pointing at soc.motss is at best, extremely limited in scope and info
about anything.  Using it as though it were representative shows lack of
judgement when making an analysis.  Of course that is also reflected in your
inability, I suppose, to understand C++.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Message Clutter
From: mike@batpad.lgb.ca.us (mike batchelor)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 19:51:56 PDT
Distribution: world               
Organization: The Batchelor Pad

mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>
> In article <724134655.AA04902@mcws.fidonet.org>, Ron.Landers@f851.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Landers) writes:
> >         I'm a new user, 
> 
>   No kidding.
> 
> > and this BBS program is also new to me.  One
> > particular thing I've noticed that I don't like is the amount of clutter the
> > posts contain.  I assume that part of this "problem" is unavoidable, with
> > respect to the initial NET information that apparently appears in every
> > message, regardless.
> 
>   And your messages are always posted twice. Physician heal thyself.
>  
> >         However, one thing I've noticed that IS under the control of users
> > is the practice of quoting from the post one is responding to.  It seems
> > that virtually EVERY post contains way too much quoting.  
> 
>   Sez you.
> 
> > For example, I've
> > seen countless messages where the user quotes a long passage from the
> > original post,followed by their ONE LINE comment.  Is this really
> > necessary?
> 
>   Yes.
>  
> >         To exaggerate my point.  It's like quoting an entire chapter of "War
> > and Peace," and at the end of the passage, typing in a line that says: "I
> > really like this chapter..."  Couldn't you just say; "I really liked Chapter
> > Seven of War and Peace," and spare us the entire chapter?
> 
>   No. If you are making a point about somebody's work, it is very
> applicable to quote it. Not everybody has reference to the quotable
> material.
> 
> >         When I first logged on here and began reading the posts, it seemed
> > like there were dozens and dozens of posts, that ALL quoted major sections
> > of the same ORIGINAL POST, and we're talking a screen full or two.  So, I
> > had to wade through the same message over and over and over again, as quoted
> > by all the responders to that post.  This is ridiculous.
> 
>   Get used to it. Or go away.
> > 
> >         In my opinion, the feature which allows you to "grab" partial or
> > entire quotes from an original message is mostly a CRUTCH.  It comes in
> > handy sometimes, but some of you seem to be ABUSING the advantage, to a
> > point which seems to smack of intellectual LAZINESS.
> 
>   Yawn.
> -- 
> 
> 		Michael Thomas	(mike@gordian.com)
> 	"I don't think Bambi Eyes will get you that flame thrower..."  
> 		-- Hobbes to Calvin
> 		USnail: 20361 Irvine Ave Santa Ana Heights, Ca,	92707-5637
> 		PaBell: (714) 850-0205 (714) 850-0533 (fax)

I love it when it says "Include Original Post (Y/n?) ? _" and I hit Y.

All I want to know is WHY ARE YOU READING THIS IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH?

Now I expect you to chastise me for typing all in caps.  Please.



[] ---
[] Mike Batchelor <> Long Beach, California
[] mike@batpad.lgb.ca.us <or> mikebat@qdeck.com
Xref: sparky ca.politics:10392 talk.politics.misc:64539
From: pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu (Paul Ryan)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:19:09 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: copland.crhc.uiuc.edu

cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>No question, massive [AIDS] education is needed.  But it won't solve the 
>problem of the person who is suicidal, and completely unable to
>control their sexuality (i.e. the average homosexual).

"someone who lacks the self-control to respond to facts without engaging 
in character assassination isn't worth my time; it's a sign that someone 
is so irrational as to be a waste of time to argue with" - Clayton Cramer

-- 
Paul Ryan                  (pgr@crhc.uiuc.edu)     1308 West Main St.
Center for Reliable High-Performance Computing     Urbana, IL 61801
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign         (217) 244-7179
Newsgroups: ca.politics,talk.politics.misc
From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 05:00:17 GMT

In article <13676@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# Of those 1215 new cases through Oct. 1991, 531 were
#"sex with injecting drug user", 

Well, it appears that I made a mistake. The data I had was formatted
such that it appears that the 1215 cases were seperate from the 513,
not a subgrouping. Adding all the numbers shows my mistake.

#311 were "Sex with person born in
#Pattern=II country" (which everyone knows means that the person was
#probably a prostitute there, but for political reasons, we will
#pretend otherwise).

Oh, REALLY??? How did you get that determination? Or is it just more
of your prejudice showing through?

#  Of the 1587 new cases through Sept. 1992,
#703 were "Sex with injecting drug user" and 281 were "Sex with
#person born in Pattern-II country."  Not so impressive now, is it?

Well, it shows that the number of new AIDS cases amoung homosexual
males increased by 0.08 percent, the number amoung IV drug users
increased by 32 percent (most of these being heterosexuals), the
number that Clayton claims are prosititues DECREASED by 10 percent,
and the number of people that I presume Clayton would call "innocent"
increasing BY 80 PERCENT!

If this trend keeps up, the number of AIDS cases amoung non-IV using
heterosexuals will pass the number of AIDS in *SIX YEARS*.

Consider that Clayton.

#Again, the sort of misleading crap I expect from Greg Hennessy.

Hmm, Clayton, did you claim to not engage in ad-hominem attacks? 
I plead guilty to misreading a table. At least I know that 4+7 is
greater than 10. *grin*

#Subtract out the prostitutes and those having sex with IV drug
#abusers, and it isn't 4000, and you know it.

Actually, I didn't know it. Thanks for correcting a misunderstanding
of mine. I guess you just proved the old saying, "A wise man can
always learn something from a fool". However, I do note that if the
rates keep up, in six years the number of non-IV hets with aids will
be larger than the number of homosexuals with aids, new cases I mean.




--
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
 USPS Mail:     Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
 Internet:      gsh7w@virginia.edu  
 UUCP:		...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: More AIDS absurdity - 1Billion AIDS cases
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:26:21 GMT
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <71735@cup.portal.com> Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
>He also says 85
>percent of world infections are heterosexual, a number which has absolutely
>no relavence to the epidemic as we know it in the US where non-IV het
>AIDS is almost non-existent.

Wonderful logical reasoning here.  Show that when a person is talking
about subject A, his comments do not reflect subject B, and therefore
invalid.  Back to Logic 101 for you, I'm afraid.

That aside, the number of non-IV heterosexual infections has been
shown to be increasing, so your statement that it does not apply
to the US is premature at best, and quite likely blatantly wrong.

But then, you aren't exactly well known for your responsible use
of statistics in the past.

-- 
Michael Bryan     michael@resonex.com
Xref: sparky ca.politics:10295 talk.politics.misc:63928
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Gay/Lesbian Equal Rights Needed
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:43:24 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <4858@wet.UUCP>, mhi@wet.UUCP (Philip E. Murphy) writes:
# Again Clayton you fail to realize that aside from research statistics, even
# the people on soc.motss are not representative of society.  You just do not
# know enough gays to make statements about promiscuity.  And obviously you

I've quoted from Masters, Johnson, & Kolodny's book, which does contain
statistics on homosexual promiscuity.

# do not know about strait behaviour either.   Hetero aids is picking up 
# without benefit of needles or blood passage.  Don't forget about all the 

From prostitutes, yes.  But very seldom for anyone else.  It CAN be
done.  But it isn't real common in the U.S.

# bi-sexual males out there.  But please do not use soc.motss at a window to
# reality - that window looks out on an inner courtyard.  Use society, talk to

More like a dungeon.

# people and be honest.  You will find some people with many multiple partners,

A few.

# but dont forget that they are being honest because of the severness of the
# disease or the chance of disease.  Straight people do not always tell the truth
# especially if they are in a relationship.
# 
# The disease is here and everyone is scared.  It is a retro-virus (shifting). 
# It was not caused by gays.  They were the first group to get publicity for

I never claimed that it was.  But it was certainly the big culprit in
spreading it so fast.

# it.  Look at Africa and South America - there is the culprint.  Clayton - 
# you are fighting the wrong people.  It is always a subset of the people you
# hurl epitets at.  Parade organizers and people on soc.motss are a subset.
# Do not judge by this sample.
# 
# Phil Murphy

The parades are speaking for all homosexuals.  They better tell the
parade organizers if they aren't happy about it.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: ca.politics
From: dcriswel@oracle.uucp (David Criswell)
Subject: Re: Message Clutter
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:01:20 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <jyc.724277622@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>Ron.Landers@f851.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Landers) writes:
>
>>        I'm a new user, and this BBS program is also new to me.  One
>>particular thing I've noticed that I don't like is the amount of clutter the
>>posts contain.  I assume that part of this "problem" is unavoidable, with
>>respect to the initial NET information that apparently appears in every
>>message, regardless.
>
>>        However, one thing I've noticed that IS under the control of users
>>is the practice of quoting from the post one is responding to.  It seems
>>that virtually EVERY post contains way too much quoting.  For example, I've
>>seen countless messages where the user quotes a long passage from the
>>original post,followed by their ONE LINE comment.  Is this really
>>necessary?
>
>>        To exaggerate my point.  It's like quoting an entire chapter of "War
>>and Peace," and at the end of the passage, typing in a line that says: "I
>>really like this chapter..."  Couldn't you just say; "I really liked Chapter
>>Seven of War and Peace," and spare us the entire chapter?
>
>>        For a good majority of posts on this net, it seems that if you
>>SUBTRACTED OUT the lead-in NET stuff, and SUBTRACTED OUT the lengthy TAG
>>LINES,and also SUBTRACTED OUT the QUOTES from the original post, what you
>>would be left with is a few lines of actual commentary!
>
>>        When I first logged on here and began reading the posts, it seemed
>>like there were dozens and dozens of posts, that ALL quoted major sections
>>of the same ORIGINAL POST, and we're talking a screen full or two.  So, I
>>had to wade through the same message over and over and over again, as quoted
>>by all the responders to that post.  This is ridiculous.
>
>>        In my opinion, the feature which allows you to "grab" partial or
>>entire quotes from an original message is mostly a CRUTCH.  It comes in
>>handy sometimes, but some of you seem to be ABUSING the advantage, to a
>>point which seems to smack of intellectual LAZINESS.
>
>>        Well, that's my two cents' worth...
>
>   I agree.

me too.
Newsgroups: ca.politics