HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Keeping time twice a day
Date: 4 Sep 1992 12:41:41 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <1992Sep4.064836.29028@smds.com> rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:

>The reference for this, by the by, is _Dinosaurs, Spitfires, & Sea Dragons_,
>Christopher McGowan, Harvard University Press, 1991, page 99.  [Yes, this
>is the book that Ted keeps citing.]

I thought Ted always cites a book by some "McGowen" :-)  (or did he learn
to spell while I wasn't watching?)

--
Justin M. Sanders    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance"
Dept. of Physics        --last words of Gen. John Sedgwick
Kansas State Univ.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: The rise of consciousness
Keywords: brain,evolution,consciousness
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:03:41 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)

In article <1SEP199212242334@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>, lippard@skyblu (James J. Lippard) writes:
>   Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am.
>   I lived in a world that was a no-world.  I cannot hope
>   to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious
>   time of nothingness. ... Since I had no power of thought,
>   I did not compare one mental state with another.  [Helen Keller]

>There's also some more interesting data along these lines to be found in
>Oliver Sacks' _Seeing Voices_ (1990, Harper Perennial) about the deaf
>community and those who do not learn language.

Not all pre-lingual adults are incapable of thought before learning a
language.  See Susan Schaller A MAN WITHOUT WORDS (Summit, 1991) for the
story of `Ildefonso', a deaf man who was never educated in sign-language
until his 20s.  She tells other such stories she knows about, including
one who can communicate a few signs with one person only, yet is capable
of advanced bicycle repair and disassembly.  Most interesting is her
introduction to a community of languageless deaf adults, who meet once
a week or so to mime their life stories and otherwise communicate.  New
signs are made up on the spot, and almost nothing takes hold permanently.
These people are clearly conscious.  They might barely be said to have
a language, but that's a question for further research regarding what
symbol/meaning correspondences they do have, individually or as a group.
Schaller's book is unfortunately empty on that question.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Xref: sparky talk.origins:10653 sci.skeptic:15750
From: riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Linguistics and evolution
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:27:47 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Organization: LNK Corporation, Riverdale, MD

In article <87705@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <1287@tecsun1.etl.army.mil>, riggs@descartes (Bill Riggs) writes:
>>	It would help most of all if Matt translated this blurb into
>>English. I read it through three times and still didn't understand the
>>point he was trying to make. (i.e "linguistic, dental, and genetic
>>classification...were (?) found...")
>
>If you can't even comprehend something as basic as what I wrote, and
>have no idea what I'm alluding to, you certainly are in no position to
>comment about the evidence for evolution.
>
>Is the word "dendogram" even part of your vocabulary?

	Nope.

	Bill R.

	"My opinions do not represent those of my employer or any 
government agency."

-- 
Bill R.
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: huston@access.digex.com (Herb Huston)
Subject: Re: Young earth creationist logic NOT!
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 10:48:32 GMT

In article <928@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>  In fact there is *one* site where actual cellular tissue is
>preserved!  (In this case it is plant leaves, complete with chloroplasts,
>and even DNA, and still retaining their original fall coloration, but the
>point is still there, fossils are more various than you imagine).

And the "Magnolias From Moscow" serve as the subject of Stephen Jay Gould's
column in the current (September 1992) issue of _Natural History_.

-- Herb Huston


Xref: sparky talk.origins:10084 soc.culture.african.american:9026 alt.rap:4207
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,soc.culture.african.american,alt.rap
Subject: Re: White skin-how did it develope?
Date: 24 Aug 92 19:22:32 GMT
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Originator: glp@merlin


In article <1992Aug20.223509.7577@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, KAMCHAR@ibm.cl.msu.edu writes:
|> 
|>      I have thought over the evolution of skin color, and have run into the
|> following questions:
|> 
|> 1) Following that the darker colors for humans are generally dominant vis-a-vis
|> the lighter colors

Is this true?  I had always thought this, but I was recently
told that lighter skin is dominant.  The idea that genes for
darker skin would predominate was based more in societal
definitions of "black" and "white" - anything that was
non-white was black.

-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
From: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: macroevolution
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:46:47 GMT
Organization: animal -- coelomate -- deuterostome

In article <1003@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen) writes:

>Of course they didn't all just bow down and accept Lynn Margulis ideas,
>they made her demonstrate them thoroughly first.  All quite proper.

As support for Stan's statement, you could look at the reaction of
the biological community to Margulis' current "out-there" hypothesis 
-- Gaia. 

>Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com

Chris Colby 	---	 email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu	---
"'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined,
resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'"
 	--Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos"
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: ds0007@buhao (Dale Skiba)
Subject: Re: Linguistics and evolution
Organization: Medtronic, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:56:39 GMT

mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:
: 
: ...  but of course there is massive evidence
: AGAINST the spread of all languages from any one center.  That, in
: itself, argues for language as quite an old cultural possession of our
: species.

I do not know a great deal about linguistics, so could someone please
post some of this evidence.  You know, something like the stuff posted
showing that a global flood 5000 years ago involving Noah's ark was 
pretty much an impossible scenario.

--
Dale Skiba
From: news@fedfil.UUCP (news)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: White skin-how did it develope?
Date: 25 Aug 92 15:39:29 GMT
Organization: HTE

In article <1992Aug25.014027.19210@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu*, dmjones@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David M. Jones) writes:
* In article <2872@fedfil.UUCP>, news@fedfil (Ted Holden) writes:
 
*>You've got the cart in front of the horse here.  You're assuming the cold
*>climate and then asking what would then cause white skin to develope.
*>
*>It doesn't work that way.  Somewhere in the world, due to large scale mutation
*>most likely involving natural/cosmic catastrophe and large volumes of energy
*>being released upon the world, a group of people with white skin developes.
 
*Um, someone correct me if I've missed something, but hasn't Ted
*traditionally maintained that the first humans were white and the
*"large volumes of energy" were responsible for the origins of
*dark-skinned people?

Allow me to correct you, since you have missed something.  To the best of my
knowledge, and this comes from a number of James Strickling's papers, my 
readings of the literature, and also from my readings of history, the best
theory regarding the three present races is as follows:  that the yellow
race is significantly older than the white and black, that the white and black
are VERY recent, i.e. within the last 10000 years, and that one or other of
the white and black races is almost assuredly an even more recent offshoot
of the other.  To my thinking at least, antique literature makes it fairly
clear as to which way that last detail worked.

I would figure that the lineages of the three sons of Noah probably account
for the vast bulk of Indo-European (Japhetic), Semetic (Shemetic), and dark-
skinned (Hamitic) peoples of the world.  I would figure that orientals are
descended from people who survived the flood otherwise than on the ark.

There are likelihoods also of others having survived outside the ark in a
few odd instances.  One such possibility might be the (former Soviet) 
Georgian and Basque groups, which are linguistically unrelated to anything
else around them.

)



-- 
Ted Holden
HTE
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Evol & God : CANNOT Co-exist!
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:01:17 GMT

In article <BtpIxs.7Ku@scd.hp.com>, dave@hpdstma.ptp.hp.com (Dave Waller)
writes:

|>In my view, God, if s/he does exist, is having a good laugh at the expense 
|>of the creationists, who just can't seem to see how much more miraculous
|>and wonderful a creation that runs by itself is vs. one that requires
|>constant fiat tinkering.

Interesting side point (well I find it interesting). The Greeks started out with
monatheistic worship of a female God, the tripple Goddess Hera. The three
aspects reflected the three seasons and the three ages of woman (maiden, fertile
and crone). However this was definitely a single God, not three (sound
familiar?)

The tales of Hericles describe the supression of worship of a Goddess in a
matriarchal society and its replacement with a patriarchal society. This
coincides with the suppression of human sacrifice, in particular the annual
sacrifice of the sacred King.

There are many like problems for the true Evangelic Creationist, like the fact
that the ancient rites of mythras include a banquet in which the bread and wine
turn into the blood and body of mythras, this from 400BC. The story of the birth
of Christ is also anticipated in both Roman and Egyptian mythology.

Since my church does not practice these rites (or indeed any) yet are members of
the council of churches and joined in the editing of the New English Bible one
can conclude that they are not an integral part of the faith and may be
discarded. I suspect that view is contrariwise to our Creationist brethren who
seem to have rather fixed definitions in this sphere.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
From: robd@cherry09 (Robert Derrick)
Subject: Re: Proof: God wrote the Bible
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:01:31 CDT

fllant01@uctvax.uct.ac.za wrote:
: ======================================================================
: Extract from 'Seal of God' by F.C.Payne (1974):
..
: Thanks in advance and grace be with you,
: Anthony Faull
: ===================================================================

Yes, yes, I have already heard all of this.  But what does Payne
have to say about the Templars?  This is a matter of great consequence!

rob derrick
robd@cray.com
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: CS provides confirmation of evolutionary predictions
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:45:21 GMT

In article <87528@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
}In article <1992Aug29.165306.1208@rosevax.rosemount.com>, grante@aquarius (Grant Edwards) writes:
}>: > Please name a science that does NOT evince strong evidence for an
}>: > ancient earth, and evolution by descent with modification over
}>: > deep time.
}
}>: Um, computer science.
}
}>Computer Science isn't.  Science, that is.  It's math, with a little
}>engineering thrown in when they want to actually accomplish something.
}
}You're right, but nevertheless, CS has twice this past decade provided
}striking confirmations of evolutionary based predictions: genetic algor-
}ithms (GA) and artificial life (AL).  In both cases, an algorithmic
}conclusion was conjectured based on what `belief' in evolution has
}taught us.

Personally, I view these two as:
GA: Evidence that something CAN work. (hence blowing away the creationist's
    argument that it CAN'T happen.)
AL: Evidence that another kind (and heck if I can think of a definition of
    "kind" that would include both AL and puppies in the same kind) CAN
    occur (hence blowing away the creationist "cannot form a new kind")

Counter arguments?  Note I would not use them as examples of what DID but
as evidence-by-demonstration of what CAN.


Xref: sparky talk.origins:10744 sci.skeptic:15830
From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: answer to John Ata's whining
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:47:15 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

In article <1992Sep1.042358.20900@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.013810.28124@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU>, dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.AU (Derek Abbott) writes:
>
>> If one party is polite and the other is rude (in any debate or argument)
>> then to an outside observer, the "rude party" is the one that looks
>> suspicious and insecure about its own theory.
>>
>> I know this is a cruel assumption that people make (as the real reason could
>> be that the "rude party" simply is immature & has bad communication
>> skills, but happens to have the correct theory) but that is the way things
>> are.
>
>Another reason, Derek, could be that after refuting the same tired old
>non-arguments time after time, after having the same sophistical tricks
>attempted day in and day out and after having masses of evidence presented
>but ignored over and over again, your politeness fuse burns down and you
>start switching into scorn-mode.
>

Have you tried ignore mode?

>But what are you doing here Mr Abbott?

I'm everywhere. Watch out.
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Holden numbers, powerlifting, and reality
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:22:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.002629.17003@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, tlode@nyx.cs.du.edu (trygve lode) writes:
>  
> OK, that's it--I've been reading t.o. semi-regularly again lately and
> have come to the inescapable conclusion that Ted Holden is not a
> powerlifter and, for that matter, don't seem to know anything to speak
> of about powerlifters or powerlifting. [..]

Uh oh, it seems Ted's last bastion has fallen.  In each area of expertise
touched by his theories he has been proven ignorant.  Of course this will not
keep him from being truly right and inerrantly correct...

-- 
thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: White skin-how did it develope?
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 17:13:47 GMT

In article <2872@fedfil.UUCP>, news@fedfil.UUCP (news) writes:
>Then, people being mobile as they are, some of these new honkies migrate
north,
>some south, some east, some west...
> 
>The ones who headed in certain directions made it, i.e. just by dumb luck they
>ended up in places in which the white skin and lack of jumping ability turned
>out to be favorable adaptations.  

  I take heart in the fact that Ted now seems to at least understand the
concepts behind evolution.  I think I'll save this post for future use too.

 |  __L__   *******************************
-|-  ___    * Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub   *
 |  | o |   * kv07@iastate.edu            *
 |/ `---'   * Iowa State University       *
/|   ___    * Math Department             *
 |  |___|   * 400 Carver Hall             *
 |  |___|   * Ames, IA  50011             *
 J  _____   *******************************
From: czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: White skin: how did it develop ?
Date: 29 Aug 92 04:22:29 GMT
Reply-To: czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <n0850t@ofa123.fidonet.org> Dr.Pepper@f241.n103.z1.fidonet.org writes:
>
>Huh? All those people are caucasians, the group that's traditionally called
>"white". The fact that most caucasians are dark skinned was ignored by the
>eurocentrists that made up the terminology. I personally hate the color names 
>myself. We are all colored some shade of brown.
>

Only people from the Caucuses (sp?) are Caucasian. I know they misuse
the term/label in the USA: when I first arrived here, I ticked the
box marked "other" (I am northern European) and received a lecture
on "ethnicity". The same thing happened to my colleage Alberto, from
Rome, who ticked the "Latin" box.

>
>+--------------------------+--------------------------------------+
>| 10                    2  | Garden Grove Institute of Technology |
>|        DR PEPPER         | Community Outreach Center            |
>|                       4  |                                      |
>+--------------------------+ Snail Addr: Unit #1, 7872 Trask      |

Chris Lee
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: edstrom@hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom)
Subject: Re: Linguistics and evolution
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 15:19:31 GMT
Organization: Neuroscience Division, U of Calgary School of Medicine, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

In article <73tK02X.20Ii01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>
czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee) writes: 
>Sep2.171035@
>Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
>
>In article <1992Sep2.171035@IASTATE.EDU> kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:
>>
>>  What English lacks in the complexity you refer to it more than
>>makes upfor in ...   ...couldn't write a letter that would fool a native
>>speaker into thinking he was American.
>
>
>This doesn't make sense!
>
>I am a native English speaker whom nobody would think American.
>
>Maybe that's because I'm English.

Is English English English?

It has enough degrees of freedom for my needs.


>> |  __L__   *******************************
>>-|-  ___    * Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub   *
>> |  | o |   * kv07@iastate.edu            *
>> |/ `---'   * Iowa State University       *
>>/|   ___    * Math Department             *
>> |  |___|   * 400 Carver Hall             *
>> |  |___|   * Ames, IA  50011             *
>> J  _____   *******************************
>
>Chris Lee

John Edstrom

--
 RM 2104, HSc Building,  Div. Neuroscience
 U. Calgary School of Medicine,  3330 Hospital Drive NW
 Calgary, Alberta       T2N 3Y4
 (403) 220 4493  (wk)
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: The rise of consciousness
Keywords: brain,evolution,consciousness
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:24:57 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)

In article <1992Sep1.191439.7056@cbnewsm.cb.att.com>, mls@cbnewsm (mike.siemon) writes:
>> But noise introduced into a system cannot be the cause of a sophisticated 
>> end product such as consciousness.

>Edelman would, I suspect, say that you have the whole process backwards --
>the noise is initially ALL that there is, and the "sophisticated end
>product" is explicable in precisely the same way as the "marvellous design"
>of biological species.

And there's a growing body of evidence (Freeman? at UCB, plus many others)
that chaos plays a central role in our brains, from storing memories to
controlling our level of consciousness.

Your enthusiasm, Eli, is advancing faster than your reading.  I'd catch up
on chaos theory before arguing about what noise really means.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.origins,soc.culture.african.american,alt.rap
From: rshouman@chpc.utexas.edu (Radey Shouman)
Subject: Re: White skin-how did it develope?
Organization: The University of Texas System - CHPC
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 00:23:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.180452.24728@unixg.ubc.ca> bogreen@unixg.ubc.ca writes:
>I have some problems with the hypothesis - I am thinking that specific
>locations may be important. The Inuit of northern North America do not
>have light skin. Neither did the aboriginals of Northern Eastern Europe
>(former USSR). These people did very well in the north with dark skin,
>although, I guess, it isn't "black" skin either.

>Bo Green (bo!bo!bo!)                      Internet: bogreen@unixg.ubc.ca


The Inuit eat a lot of fish -- which is rich in vitamin D (remember cod
liver oil?), hence, no pressure for lighter skin.  I don't know much
about the NE Europeans you speak of, but their diet might also be a factor.
-- 
Radey Shouman					rshouman@chpc.utexas.edu
From: cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Proof: God wrote the Bible
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:44:01 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

How is this proof of ANYTHING, except that whoever cooked up the bible
(God or otherwise) had 7 on his/her/its brain?
-- 
-Tero Sand
  EMail: cust_ts@cc.helsinki.fi     Snail mail: Auroran Sairaala os. 6-1
  (if that doesn't work, try                    Nordenskioldinkatu 20
   cust_ts@kruuna.helsinki.fi)                  00250 Helsinki 25, Finland
Newsgroups: talk.origins