HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Cathode ray memory
Date: 29 Jul 92 10:48:21 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <9207282234.AA23821@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, C491153@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU (John Schultz) writes:
> Some people have mentioned using cathode ray tubes for memory.  Just how
> was this trick accomplished?

Quoting from "High Speed Computing" by S. H. Hollingdale, M.A., Ph.D.
published by The English Universities Press Ltd. (1960 edition) (pictures
omitted, of course):

"7.4 Electrostatic Storage

A number of storage devices have been developed in which digital 
information is represented by distributions of electric charge on the 
inside surface of a vacuum tube. We shall describe on such system that was 
invented in 1944 by Professor F. C. Williams and Dr. T. Kilburn of the 
University of Manchester.

...A beam of electrons is directed at the fluorescent screen of an ordinary
cathode-ray tube which is fitted with a collector plate immediately in 
front of the screen. Suppose we bombard a spot A on the screen with a beam 
of electrons, the accelerating potential being chosen, as it can be, so 
that the coefficient of secondary electron emission is greater than unity; 
that is to say, more electrons are emitted by the spot being bombarded than 
fall on it from the primary beam. The spot will thus become positively 
charged and most of the secondary electrons will be attracted to 
neighbouring parts of the conducting inside surface of the cathode-ray 
tube. The distribution of charge in the neighbourhood of A will be as shown 
in [illustration omitted]; we may say that a 'well' of potential has been 
'dug' by the bombardment. Since there is a small capacity between the spot 
on the screen and the collector plate, the result of bombarding an 
uncharged spot will be produce a small positive pulse on the collecto 
plate. If now we bombard A again (before there has been any leakage of 
charge), the spot will still be in equilibrium potential and so no signal 
will be obtained from the collector plate. In this way it is possible to 
'write' binary information as a pattern of charged spots on the screen and 
to 'read' the information off again."

There's more discussion about refresh and how to overcome destructive 
readout and refreshing the display. Basically, a Williams Tube is a large, 
randomly addressable capacitor.

By the way, "High Speed Computing" has good information on EDSAC and DEUCE. 
Highly recommended, if you can find it.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was: 9 track data storage?)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:44:40 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.193708.21077@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>In article <norm.712496846@glsdev> norm@modcomp.uucp (Norm Brake) writes:

Sorry for the post to the net, but I am having trouble with e-mail to Norm's
site.  Norm, if you are out there, please e-mail to me to try that way.

cjl

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Unix Roots of DOS?
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:26:46 GMT

In article <ua9LoB1w165w@mantis.co.uk> Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>Just because there is a byte count in the file doesn't make it take any
>>less time to load into memory or take up any less space when in a normal
>>executable form.  (When archived, it will take up one byte though.)
>
>Or less if compressed. :-)

What compression utility stores individual files in less than one byte?
Most I have seen start each file on a new byte boundary at least, so the
file still has to occupy one byte.

cjl
From: marques@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long...
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:01:19 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Library Automation Team

In article <PRENER.92Jul24031055@prener.watson.ibm.com>, prener@watson.ibm.com (Dan Prener) writes:
> 	<1992Jul23.152757.1506@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
> Sender: news@watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster)
> Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, Hawthorne, New York
> Lines: 8
> In-Reply-To: gudjm@uniwa.uwa.edu.au's message of Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:27:57 GMT
> Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
> Nntp-Posting-Host: prener.watson.ibm.com
> 
> In article <1992Jul23.152757.1506@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> gudjm@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (D John McKenna) writes:
> 
>>Just out of curiosity... out of all of you hackers who wear a digital
>>watch, how many have it in 24 hour mode?
> 
> Real hackers keep their watches in 32 (or 0x20) hour mode.
> --
>                                    Dan Prener (prener@watson.ibm.com)

I thought real hackers only used analog watches, because they don't use 
anything they don't have the source for (ie. a digital watches micro-code).

-- 
Jose Marques, Systems Programmer
 %INCLUDE STDDIS; /* Standard Disclaimer */
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: aduell@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was: 9 track data storage?)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 19:27:41 GMT


Well, My Philips P850 has 2 K words of Core Memory, and boots from paper
tape. (One day at Cambridge, after carrying the CPU back from a friend's
room, where I had been demonstrating it, one of the 4 Core memory units
fell out, and bounced about 4 times on the concrete path. Not only di it
still work, but the data was still there)
My PDP11/10's have core memory, and last year at the Bristol University
Socieies fair, I booted one of them from paper tape (I borrowed the bord
from my 11/45)
My 11/45 has paper tape, a card reader (I don't have a computer-controlled
punch - I have one of those hand things, 12 buttons - 1 for each row) ,
and could have core memory if I could be bothered to fit it in (I have
loads of DEC core in my spares box). It also has a couple of 9-track
magtapes, which is where we started.

Talking of old storage, how many still use 8" floppies (I have them on my
PDP11/45 (DEC RX02), CASU super C CP/M machine, FTS-88 CPM/86 machine, and
I have a couple linked up to my IBM XT - I intend to link a paper tape
reader to that box soon - ever seen a PC with 6 floppies and paper tape
?!?!?)

-tony 'PDP11 Hacker' Duell
ard@siva.bris.ac.uk

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: What does UNIX mean?
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:08:33 GMT

vargish@sura.net (Nick Vargish) writes:

>magnus@THEP.LU.SE (Magnus Olsson) writes:

>[computer-illiterate journo stories deleted]

>Jerry Pournelle writes a column for a Swedish regional newspaper?

>p.s. Well, okay, Jerry probably would have gotten the assembly
>language stuff right. It's just that his columns have become continual
>whines about his Intel-based compatibility problems. (Wait 'til Jerry
>writes about installing OS/2!)

My personal favourite was when Jerry got a Unix-PC (AT&T 3b2?), and
complained that every now and then the disk would spin when he wasn't doing
anything!  Duh - what's multi-tasking?  Duh - what's a daemon?

I still read his columns, but I'm no longer sure why...

-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com or {uunet,cognos,revcan}!geovision!pt
(This is not an official opinion of GeoVision Systems Inc.)
"I just posted from babbage.museum.london.uk, and BOY ARE MY ARMS TIRED!!"
   - Rolf Wilson in alt.folklore.computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: prener@watson.ibm.com (Dan Prener)
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long...
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:10:55 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
	<1992Jul23.152757.1506@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, Hawthorne, New York

In article <1992Jul23.152757.1506@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> gudjm@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (D John McKenna) writes:

>Just out of curiosity... out of all of you hackers who wear a digital
>watch, how many have it in 24 hour mode?

Real hackers keep their watches in 32 (or 0x20) hour mode.
--
                                   Dan Prener (prener@watson.ibm.com)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: panisset@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (Jean-Francois Panisset)
Subject: Re: More license places
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 03:14:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.190939.16346@javelin.sim.es.com> gfowler@javelin.sim.es.com (Gary Fowler) writes:
>lemson@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David Lemson) writes:
>
>>While I was visiting suburban St. Louis this past weekend, I saw one
>>of my favorites on a Volvo that is often parked outside of a neighborhood
>>grocery store -
>>LUV-VM
>>Obviously a deranged individual...I'd steer clear of that one on the
>>road... :-)

Almost as bad (or worse? You be the judge)...

Just seen tonight: the

I <Heart> DOS

bumber sticker.

What's next: the "I Do COBOL, and Damn Proud of It" bumber sticker.
Still, not all is lost: the sticker was on a red Firefly convertible, so
if one assumes that the owner has the same taste in computers as in cars,
things are probably not so hopeless (flames to rec.autos...).

JF


-- 
Jean-Francois Panisset                    
INET: panisset@mcrcim.mcgill.ca            
      panisset@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
UUCP: ...!mcgill-vision!panisset
From: bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: DECtape (was: Worst tape drives)
Date: 27 Jul 92 07:12:36 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

In article <1992Jul23.194619.5451@wobble.uucp>, dlu@wobble.uucp (Doug Urner) writes:
> ian@unipalm.co.uk (Ian Phillipps) writes:
> 
>>peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> 
>>>You don't want to know what a TK50 is. Probably the worst cartridge
>>>design for tape transport ever.
> 
>>I agree, but worst ever - there's hot competition! I remember the
>>old-style DEC tapes. 3" diameter open-reel jobs; no capstan motors.
> 
> DECtapes!  I've still got one around here somewhere, found memories of
> the PDP-10 return every time I stumble across it.

Our PDP-10 (DEC10.PSU.Edu) has 8 DECtape drives.  They've had no maintenance
whatsoever since we dropped our contract 10+ years ago.  Three still
work.  Recently, I read 40+ tapes which were written 20 years ago on
some other system.  One or two were unreadable.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was: 9 track data storage?)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:54:50 GMT

In article <1640@hsdndev.UUCP> dsands@binoc.bih.harvard.edu (Daniel Zev Sands) writes:
>Paper tape.  Ahh the sweet memories.  I remember programming in BASIC
>on a Teletype connected to my high school's PDP-8.  There was no
>storage available so you HAD to store your program on paper tape.  I
>remember arguing about whether it was better to FOLD the tape (so you
>could store it in a notebook) or to ROLL it (so you could rubber band
>it or TRY to stuff it into a film canister).  The tape was encoded
>with holes--seven or eight across, I believe--each row representing
>one character.  If the tape ripped (go forbid) you'd lose only a few
>characters but it could really screw up the program you were trying to
>load.  Just to make things even riskier, the electromechanical reader
>frequently misread.  But the din of that noisy reader and the puncher
>was nothing compared with the racket of the teletypes themselves.
> 
>All things considered, I'll take my PC any day.

I use my PDP-8 (and my PC) a lot.  The PDP-8 has a PC04 high-speed reader
which I rarely use, and also a CR8E punched card reader which I virtually
never use.  (And now have disconnected and in a closet to save space.)

This machine did indeed have a teletype on it at one time.  The console
device for it has changed many time, and is currently a DECmate III running
Kermit-12.  (Yes, I have a PDP-8 on my PDP-8 :-).)

BTW, my PC has been used as the console terminal for the PDP-8, but the
DECmate has a better keyboard.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Subject: Re: 9 track data storage???????????????READ/NEW/FOLLOWUP
Reply-To: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Organization: Snake Island Research Inc, Toronto
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 16:36:22 GMT

In article <3897202@zl2tnm.gen.nz> don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (Don Stokes) writes:
>> In article <83871@netnews.upenn.edu>, blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes:
>> And it's a hell of a lot less likely to eat the tape the way a TK50 would.
>
>I dunno.  I saw a lot of imaginatively munched tapes in 9-track drives.
The old 729 and 2400 style IBM 9-track drives were a bit scary to watch
in high-speed rewind: There was this ~~one-horsepower motor making this 
several kilogram (sorry for mixing units...) reel of tape spin at VERY
High Speed. 

One day, I was in the machine room when I heard a crash at the same
time a reel of tape went tearing past my head at warp speed.

The hub grabber had broken during high-speed rewind, and the tape
reel had somehow smashed through the glass door of the tape drive
and headed across the room at a very healthy clip. Luckily,
nobody was in its trajectory, as it did considerable damage to the
wall it eventually hit...



Robert Bernecky      rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com  bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca 
Snake Island Research Inc  (416) 368-6944   FAX: (416) 360-4694 
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 
Canada
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: draz@tochna.technion.ac.il (David Raz)
Subject: Re: MS-LOSS Stupidity (Wasn't: Computer Button Sayings)
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:43:43 GMT

In article <Br6wFC.F3@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, dagbrown@leibniz.waterloo.edu (Dave Brown) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul10.163133.21603@exu.ericsson.se> exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague) writes:
|> >

[stuff deleted]

|> This thread brings back many fond memories...anyone remember Mr.
|> Robot on the Commodore 64?  Every now and then I pull out a Sinclair
|> Spectrum emulator on my Amiga and play a game or two of Jet Set Willy
|> (but I wanna _real_ Spectrum!!! Waah!)

Hey, I have two of those just sitting there in my clothes cupboard doing
nothing.. And in an almost working position they are. Just don't have the time
for it now. I gave about 40 90mins cassetes full of software for them to someone
a year ago. Sold my ZX81 to get the spectrum thingy...

[ more stuff deleted ]

|> 				Dave Brown
|> 				dagbrown@napier.uwaterloo.ca
|> --
|> Dave Brown
|> dagbrown@napier.uwaterloo.ca

From the holy land...

David Raz
draz@ee.technion.ac.il
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Worst tape drives. Was Re: 9 track data storage
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 16:06:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.194619.5451@wobble.uucp> dlu@wobble.uucp (Doug Urner) writes:
>ian@unipalm.co.uk (Ian Phillipps) writes:
>
>>peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>
>>>You don't want to know what a TK50 is. Probably the worst cartridge
>>>design for tape transport ever.
>
>>I agree, but worst ever - there's hot competition! I remember the
>>old-style DEC tapes. 3" diameter open-reel jobs; no capstan motors.
>
>DECtapes!  I've still got one around here somewhere, found memories of
>the PDP-10 return every time I stumble across it.

Doesn't address the issue: the DECtape is an elegant device.  The issue is
flakey design, and the DECtape design is far from flakey: it eliminates the
need for capstan motors and in the process adds additional reliability over
every fore-runner device that depended on capstan motors as part of its
overall operation.  Your fond memories will still be available to you virtually
as long as you need them if they are stored on DECtape.  This is not a
media that will flake old either because it was used for a few thousand
passes or is lying around for years; pressing into service a DECtape that
was formatted 15 years ago with no special considerations is a normal
operation.

>
>But a DECtape can't hold a candle to the TU58.  I think they retired
>the award after the DEC released the 750 with the console TU58
>(otherwise the award would belong to Colorado Memory Systems for their
>Jumbo drives -- after all you only used the console TU58 ocassionally,
>CMS expects you to do *backups* on the Jumbo).

I don't know what specific gripe you have against the CMS tapes, but all of
these cartridge tape systems wear out and rather quickly.  Used expressly
as backup devices, the user is willing to have to throw the media away
after several thousand passes.  That's about 5-10 years of daily backups,
and well worth the cost of time saved in the process.  But this *is*
disposable media, unlike DECtape.  In any case, the CMS DJ-20 properly
configured is a reasonable compromise for a PC environment to cheaply
backup a hundred megs or so at a reasonable rate for a reasonable price.

Perhaps your experience with the CMS drive isn't a current typical norm.
One problem with them is that so many are configured in the rock-bottom
cost mode.  For a list price of $95 (usually discounted anywhere other
than catalog operations) the 1 MHz interface board eliminates the
floppy controller kludge for the DJ-20 and ups the speed.  On a typical
386 system the tape usually streams.  I can backup a 45 Meg SyQuest
removable cartridge onto a DJ-20 tape in about 7 minutes.

cjl
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Today's Games Destined to be Classics
Date: 29 Jul 92 11:14:15 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <Bs5nsL.4wH@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, dagbrown@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Brown) writes:
> CLUELESS!!!!!  The CoCo is the Radio Shack Color Computer, one of the
> neater beasts to come from the guts of Tandy...it ran OS/9 and did other
> neat things.

When I got the technical manual for CoCo, I discovered that the schematic
was essentially identical to one of the application notes for the 6809 in
the Motorola data books. Are you sure it didn't come from the guts of
Motorola?

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Subject: Re: IBM vs. world terminology (was: What does dd stand for?)
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:42:51 GMT

valdis@vttcf.cc.vt.edu (Valdis Kletnieks) writes:
>The IBM S/360 models 65 and 95 (and maybe others) had a bizzare
>creature called an "imprecise interrupt".  This basically meant that
>your 'STORE' opcode hit a protection or addressing error, and the
>CPU didn't find out about it till 2-3 instructions later. (It doesn't
>take much if you consider that 2361 Large Core Storage modules had
>a 7000 ns cycle time.  Yes - this is core storage that's slower than
>some disks available now.  Anyhow, I seem to remember that it was
>possible to belly-up the machine by doing a stray store into non-
>existent memory, then doing an SVC - and then the opsys would die
>because it would take an unexpected interrupt *after* the SVC switched
>to the kernel context...

Yea, imprecise interrupts were the result of pipelining the processor
(gee, RISC is finally getting back to the '60's :-).  The idea didn't
last long because it was a bear to program reliably.  At least one
modern RISC architecture, Alpha, provides "trap barriers" which
guarantee that all interrupts generated by previous instructions will
have been generated by the time the next instruction issues.  This
makes it possible to heavily pipeline the processor and still write
reliable programs.  Even without such things better compilers are
making it easier for programmers to deal with this kind of
strangeness.

I'd never heard of the trap-before-SVC trick, but I'm amused.
Somebody will have to try that on an Alpha.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
From: Mother Nature <gaea@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Dusty Machines
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:13:53 GMT

jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge) writes:
>In <7YJHCBG@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>The coathangers are actually the larval form of bicycles.
>
>Or shopping trollies, depending on the tide levels.  If the tides are
>high, then the coathangers migrate to just off shore and do their
>metamorphsis into shopping trollies.  The larval stage is very dangerous -

Aren't subway trains made up from mature streetcars that are mating?

Gaea
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Cathode ray memory
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:08:03 GMT

From article <9207282234.AA23821@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>,
by C491153@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU (John Schultz):

> Some people have mentioned using cathode ray tubes for memory.  Just how
> was this trick accomplished?

It was vacuum tube DRAM, to use modern solid state terminology.

When you draw a pattern on the face of a CRT, it deposits a bit of charge
on each place you want bright.  This charge leaks out through the glass,
but if you can figure out how to read the charge pattern and use it to
refresy the image, you've got a dynamic memory.

In a Williams tube memory, this was done by a capacative readout.  The
front of the CRT was covered with a layer of glued on copper window
screen that served as one plate of the readout capacitor.  The other plate
was the phosphor on the inside of the tube.  To test to see if a spot on
the screen was charged, they'd send a low energy pulse of electrons at
that spot.  If it was charged, the charge on that spot would repel the
electrons and only a small pulse would be observed on the readout screen.
If the spot wasn't charged, the new electrons would all arrive at that spot
and a significant pulse would be seen on the readout screen.

If a charge was observed, the normal drive electronics would slam a high
energy packet of electrons at the spot to recharge it.  If no charge was
observed, the spot wouldn't be refreshed.

Williams tube memories typically stored between 1K and 4K bits per CRT,
with respectably fast random access to any spot on the screen.  Some
fraction of the memory accesses were consumed by the refresh logic, but,
as with modern DRAM, this didn't lead to a major performance
degradation.  ILLIAC I, the IBM 701, and many other first generation
machines used Williams tubes.
					Doug Jones
					jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was:
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:37:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

TF> .Lets make it more challenging.  Who still has any of these on a system
  > .running today.  How about any two?  Anybody want to go for three?  I
  > .have 9-track and paper tape concurrently as late as 1982 (although I
  > .will concede that this use was infrequent).  I have never used core
  > .memory, but Sperry used to give away little PCBs containing about 1K
  > .of memory to 'Visiting Dignitaries (tm)'.

Core memory and paper tape.  Both a PDP-8S and LSI-11.  (I _think_
they're still running.  Haven't used either one in many months, but
they're still set up and ostensibly functioning.)

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com