From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:57:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: mr.1992Nov16.185735.25510
Distribution: usa
Organization: Nowhere
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Rich Payne (payner@netcom.com) wrote:
> In article <1992Nov12.171018.4931@mr.med.ge.com> wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
> >
> >I just thought I would say that I find this whole thread interesting. Being a
> >Transexual on her way to transition, I can understand both sides. Most men,
> >being members of the White Male System, have no idea of what women go through.
> 
> We know, and most women know exactly what men go through, and what it means
> in all ways from the mans viewpoint on up. Obviously men are not only deaf,
> dumb (?) and blind, but insensitive and stupid.
> 
> Men have no clue. Men just don't get it. We know, we've been told.

I think the problem is that women and men view the world from two different
perspectives. It's very hard for one side to see the others point of view. Both
sides accuse the other of being insensitive and stupid......

> 
> >They cannot remotely see how women are inherently treated as inferior in this
> >culture. It sure was a learning experience for me, I can tell you that!!!!!
> 
> Why don't you. That is, a few details if you please.
>  

A number of people have asked me to post my experiences. I will be doing that
in the near future. As I am just starting my transition, I am just starting to
see the difference and it is depressing. However, I have a friend who has been 
living as a woman for 14 years and she has alot of examples. I will post as much
of it as I feel comfortable doing by the end of the week.

> >I suggest that before you men spoute off about how women are not treated as
> >inherently inferior, you become better informed. 
> 
> Why do I think that it would be sexist to say the same thing to women
> spouting off about men? (you know, that they had better become better
> informed)
> 

I think both sides should be better informed and a little more understanding.
What I find upsetting is that so many men dismiss women's complaints with a
"well it's bad for men too". I can say I know that it is, but that doesn't
mean that women don't understand that when they complain about a particular
problem their having. Most men seem to think dualistically. That is, if a 
woman says "Women are wonderful", most men will say "Why don't you like men".
What I am finding is that most women don't seem to think in those terms. It
appears to be more like "Women are wonderful and men are wonderful too". I
think this is where most of the friction comes in.

> >                                           Try the book "Women's Reality"
> >by Ann Schaef. It might enlighten you. It did me. 
> 
> Did you have a clue -before- reading the book?

Yes, I had heard alot of comments from women I know both on and off of
the net.

> 
> >                                                  Helped me understand why
> >women sometimes think of themselves as second class citizens. And why I'll
> >be treated the same way as I go out into society as a women. Hasn't changed
> >my mind what-so-ever, but has prepared me somewhat to cope with it.
>  
> Since you made a public anouncement, I hope you won't mind my asking why?
> (The sex change that is)
>  

Why???? Because I am a woman. I just happened to get stuck inside of a man's
body. While I have surpressed these emotions for many years, and tried to
act as a man, I've always known I was female. The internal conflict is almost
too much to bear. I doubt that you would understand. Most people don't, although
more women seem to then men. 

> 
> Rich
> 

Wendy