HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.railroad

In rec.railroad, bill@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM (Bill Kepner) writes:

> / hpcndaw:rec.railroad / desherry@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (douglas.e.sherry) /  6:01 am  Sep 18, 1992 /
> >
> >And speaking of converted railway tunnels, a friend once told me that
> >one of the tunnels on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was once a railway
> >tunnel.  Any truth to this?
> >
> 
> My model railroad is modeled after the South Penn between Carlise and Bedford.
> There were 5 tunnels between these points, and when constuction stoped in 1885,
> none of them were completed, but I recall that the majority were at least 50%
> finished.  Technically no track was ever laid for the railroad, but all the
> right of way had been acquired.  I won't go into the details of the agreement
> between the NYC and the PRR, but had construction reached the point where
> rails were laid, things might have been very different in Central Pa.
> 
> The Huntington and Broad Top Mt, along with the East Broad Top were intending
> on connecting with the South Penn, and apparently the NYC had acquired the
> P&LE to connect with it south of Pittsburgh. 
> 
> Anybody interested in a South Penn Historical Society ?
> 
> Bill Kepner
> 
 I've been through those tunnels a few times in another (younger :-)) life,
and that's some pretty country. I do remember one time though, that we had
to wait a long time (for a little boy of five-this was back in '58 or '59)
for a wreck to be cleared in the Blue Mountain Tunnel. Seems there was a
fire associated with it, though my memory is somewhat fuzzy at this point.
 
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o                                          i---i_________________      o
o    Warren T. Brill, a.k.a.          *----|[|]|  #### #### #### |*    o
o    wbrill@hpxxx.fc.hp.com         i_|___/|___|\________________|_i   o
o    wbrill@hpfcso.fc.hp.com       =++()=()=() `========' ()=()=()++=  o
o                                  =================================== o
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ehr@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Ernest H. Robl)
Subject: Re: Trains Magazine
Summary: rail coverage
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:22:15 GMT



A few thoughts on railroad magazines in general:

I agree with previous posters' comments that both Trains and R&R
reflect the biases of their editors -- but I think that's a common
attribute of smaller magazines in general.  My real problem is
trying to figure out what these magazines are trying to do.

Both run only relatively brief news sections -- which are the most
interesting to me -- and then often devote the remainder of the
magazine to a handful of long features.  For my tastes, too many of
these features and columns are about railfan activities.

Yes, I've been known to go on fan trips and to visit museums, but, to
me, these are secondary to operating railroads.  I think that in 
past years, Trains in particular, had far better pieces on railroads
battling the environment.

On the subject of regional emphasis in the both Trains and R&R:  I
don't think either of these publications has any decent coverage of
railroad activities outside the U.S. and Canada.  Trains runs one or
two pieces a year on trips by George Drury -- but these are more
travel pieces than stories about railroading elsewhere.

I think this group is a good example of the fact that interest in
railroads manages to cross borders.  And, there's finally a lot of
cross-influence going on in current development.  Amtrak is looking
at European passenger technology; European railroads are testing
RoadRailers -- to cite just two examples.

And, though I've focused on the prototype magazines, I think the 
same things apply to their model publications.  If anything, I think
the modelers in different countries probably have more in common
than the prototype railroaders.

One thing that has always struck me as rather strange is the fact 
that a substantial portion of the Walthers catalog is devoted to
foreign prototype models -- so there must be a market for this
material in the U.S. -- yet, there's hardly every any coverage of
layouts with non-North American prototypes.

(A number of years ago, I sold a piece to Model Railroader about an
Austrian HO layout that was built by a club inside a fully operable
railroad baggage car.  The membership of the club is made up almost
entirely of working railroaders -- including a number of men who
run 1:1 scale locomotives for a living.  The club takes their layout
on tour to model railroad meets all over Europe.  Though MR paid
me for the article and photos, the piece never appeared in the 
magazine.)

I also read Railway Age, which is the leading North American trade
magazine, though I think it, too, has some major shortcomings in
news coverage and too many of its shorter pieces sound like direct
copies of manufactuers' PR pieces.

Other thoughts?  Comments?

-- Ernest

-- 

"My other computer is a Nikon N8008." -- Ernest H. Robl
Ernest H. Robl (ehr@ecsvax)  Durham, NC, USA   +1  919   286-3845
                                         FAX:  +1  919   286-1696
From: dave@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David A Rasmussen)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Chip In Express
Date: 5 Oct 92 05:15:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: UW-Milwaukee Computing Services Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: dave@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


I've been waiting for something like this to happen with all the Indian
casino stuff going on. Unfortunately, although I have little interest
in gambling, I will be out of town when I would have wanted to go on
this... as advertised in the Milwaukee Journal 10/4/92:

Nov 8,9,10 depart Oshkosh WI, arriving at the Chip-In Casino/Motel
13 miles east of Escanaba, MI. I assume this is WC (old soo) all the way.
$199 per person double occupancy, $30 rebate in form of chips and quarter
coupons. Includes rail transport in 1920's-50's cars, 2 nights lodging
either at casino or escanaba, plus transfers. Call 800-682-6040
for more info or reservations.

-- 
Dave Rasmussen - SysAdm/Hacker/Consulting Manager, UWM Computing Svcs Div.
Internet:dave@uwm.edu, Uucp:uwm!dave, Bitnet:dave%uwm.edu@INTERBIT
AT&T:414-229-5133 USmail:Box 413 EMS380,Milwaukee,WI 53201
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Subject: Re: something about tunnels
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:26:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.033108.25853@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>, ehr@ecsvax.uncecs.edu
(Ernest H. Robl) writes...

>In article <1992Sep29.012933.14247@s1.gov>, lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
>writes:

>> 	What is "tofc/cofc"?

>TOFC= trailer on flat car -- what is commonly called piggy-back;
>COFC= container on flat car -- covers both single and double-stack
>          container loading without highway chasis attached

>These are the two basic types of railroad intermodal loading.
>Trains made up entirely of COFC/TOFC  cars and/or auto racks are
>often allowed to operated at higher speeds than freights of mixed
>consists.

	I would add a third class, essentially unknown in the USA, more common
	in Europe, called "rolling motorway":  Cars, trucks, etc are driven on
	"end loading" style, with driver & passengers remaining in the vehicle.

	At the other end, drive off.  This is one mode of Chunnel operation, tho
	drivers/passengers will be able (required?) to leave the vehicle.  This
	sort of operation is in place NOW on the Alpine routes, for transit
	traffic.  Both of trucks and passenger cars are handled.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
From: kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: garbage trains, money trains, and other novelties for out of towners.
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:21:23 GMT
Reply-To: kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu (John Kolassa)
Organization: University of Rochester, Rochester NY

In article <1992Oct2.040229.23632@news.columbia.edu>, brennan@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan) writes:
>
> I'm looking at "Moving the Millions" by Ed Davis Sr, the author :
> Livingston, Montana, 1985.  He notes the existence of:
> 
> ...
> 
> alcohol cars:  to de-ice third rails.
> 
> ...
> 
> --Joe Brennan

I've ridden in one of these attached to a regular revinue train.  I can 
attest to the fact that the passengers were de-iced.  I didn't realize that
the third rail was being de-iced at the same time!   :)
-- 
Thanks, John Kolassa, kolassa@bio1.bst.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jsm@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (John Scott McCauley Jr.)
Subject: Re: Three-phase electrification (was something about tunnels
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:49:44 GMT

In article <9209251644.AA05061@hplomg.hpl.hp.com> BRANDT_JOBST/HP1900_01@HPLOMG.HPL.HP.COM writes:
>There have been many electric RR's that operated on 3-phase current,
>the largest of which was the Italian National (FS) until about 1960
>or so.... 

How does two-wire overhead handle switches (turnouts)? Like
a trolleybus switch? Did this limit high-speed operation through
switches? 

	Scott
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Subject: Re: Three-phase electrification (was something about tunnels)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:55:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.233810.29041@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:

>In article <1992Sep29.143137.4830@ee.ryerson.ca>, cal@ee.ryerson.ca
>(Calvin Henry-Cotnam) writes...
>>Has anyone ever seen a system (using a pantograph, not a trolley pole!!)
>>where there was more than one wire???

>	As noted, this was the principal standard for Electrification in Italy,
>	and in some other areas.  Using patographs.  For many years.  Check
>	any good book on European practice.  Also used (it started this thread)
>	on the Great Northern in the USA.

	Oooooops.  GN did use trolley poles on the three phase.  Apologies.
	FS, in Italy, and the others doing main line work used "neither":
		A rectangular frame, say 3 meters long, by 1.5 meters wide,
		pivoted (yes, rather like a two trolley poles) on the top of
		the unit.  At the far end two seperate, insulated, sub frames
		pivoted, carrying (pivoted, again) bow collectors (like the
		shoes on a pan, only half as wide.).  Add springs at all useful
		points.

>>But for higher speeds where a pantograph is used, how does one control
>>where the pantograph comes in contact with the catenary?

>	??  Careful design and maintenance.  Also, the voltage used is lower,
>	typically in the 6 KVAC region.

>>If you want to use AC traction motors, you are going to need 3-phase
>>operation to prevent vibration.

	Three phase induction motors have the advantage of being self starting.
	Single phase induction motors are mostly only used in smaller sizes and
	have "gimmicks" to get them started.  When dealing with hundreds of
	HP, and the need for control, and full torque at start (all of which
	traction motors need...), the gimmicks are not real practical.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
From: wbrown@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Bill Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Three-phase electrification (was something about tunnels
Date: 28 Sep 1992 15:14:07 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.243.192.17

In article <1992Sep26.090938.1547@prodok.ch> prodok@prodok.ch (prodok) writes:
>The TGV uses only one pantograph when running under DC. But, they need a
>high-voltage cable through the whole train to feed the other power car.
>This could be accepted with an articulated train (with all it's 
>disadvantages). As the ICE is not an articulated train, but has individual
>cars, it would be extremely difficult to couple a high-voltage line. So,
>the research the German industry had to do is the price for operational
>flexibility and simplicity.

Gosh - a number of railroads solved this problem years ago.  The Reading
comes to mind.  In the 30's they electrified their commutter operations
out of Philadelphia (11KV, 25 Hz).  Had gizzies, sorta looked like buffers,
sticking out from the ends of the cars that were somewhat above roof level.
Made contact with the gizzie on the next car.  I'm sure I've seen photos
of similar schemes on other roads.

Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own and have	    |
    nothing to do with the official policy or the   |  -bill
    management of L.B.L, who probably couldn't      |   wlbrown@lbl.gov
    care less about employees who play with trains. |
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Subject: Re: Three-phase electrification (was something about tunnels)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 00:30:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.143137.4830@ee.ryerson.ca>, cal@ee.ryerson.ca
(Calvin Henry-Cotnam) writes...
>Has anyone ever seen a system (using a pantograph, not a trolley pole!!)
>where there was more than one wire???

	As noted, this was the principal standard for Electrification in Italy,
	and in some other areas.  Using patographs.  For many years.  Check
	any good book on European practice.  Also used (it started this thread)
	on the Great Northern in the USA.

>But for higher speeds where a pantograph is used, how does one control
>where the pantograph comes in contact with the catenary?

	??  Careful design and maintenance.  Also, the voltage used is lower,
	typically in the 6 KVAC region.

>If you want to use AC traction motors, you are going to need 3-phase
>operation to prevent vibration.
	This would come as a heck of a shock to the NYNH&H which ran hundreds
	of MU cars off single phase, and a goodly number of locomotives, for
	60 years or so.  Also to the PRR, which ran all its electrics off single
	phase commutator motors.  Also the Grand Trunk and its tunnel motors
	under the Detroit River.  Also darn near all the electrified RRs of
	Europe.

	(whoops.  deleted references to inverters...  sorry)
>This is how 3-phase power is made available for AC traction motors when
>the power must come from a catenary.
	What KIND of AC traction motors?  AC _series_ _Commutator_ _motors
	worked just fine, as outlined above.

	AC _induction_ (called, sometimes, aysnchronous) motors require
	inverters, be they electronics (modern) or rotary (older).

	AC _synchronous_ also require inverters.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: rspeirs@javelin.sim.es.com (Ron Speirs)
Subject: Re: Salt Lake City
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 22:39:05 GMT

In article <2ei=02Kx249J01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> jaz00@diag.amdahl.com (Joe Zuk) writes:
>This is my 1st post so hopefully it will work. I will be spending some time	in Salt Lake City near the end of October. Does anyone have a good hot spot	for trains. Are there any museums in the area that deal with trains. Anything
>within 1 to 2 hours drive is ok.

In Ogden, 35 miles north, there is a nice museum in the old Union Station,
25th & Wall.  And while you're that far north, you should continue to the
Golden Spike National Historical Site.  I'm not sure if the replicas of
the U.P. and C.P. steam locomotives are out this time of year, but the
area is interesting anyway.  Be sure to take the West Tour and the East
Tour, where you drive your car along the original roadbed of the
Transcontinental Railroad.  Golden Spike is located west of Tremonton.

In Salt Lake there is the Union Pacific yards at 700 North and 500 West,
The D&RGW Roper yards at 2300 South and 600 West.  If you want to catch
some fast-moving east-west U.P. freights, go to 5600 West and 500 South.

To the south, Spanish Fork Canyon (US Highway 6) between Spanish Fork and
Price is very busy with traffic, especially coal trains between the coal
mines in Carbon County and the Geneva Steel Mill in Utah County near Provo.

Also of interest in Spanish Fork Canyon is the Thistle Slide.  In 1983 or
1984(?) a side of a mountain slid down into the canyon, burying the 
highway, railroad and damming the river.  A large lake backed up, completely
burying the old railroad town of Thistle.  The D&RGW worked feverishly to
cut two tunnels higher up on the mountain and relocate the roadbed.  The
State highway department took much longer to relocate the highway.  Today,
the town of Thistle is gone, but you can see where it was.  Since that
was the only way to the Marysvale branch, it was completely cut off, and
a large amount of that branch roadbed was washed out in the canyon to the
south.  For a few years after the flood, the twisted, hanging rails were
to be seen along US 89 between Thistle and Fairview.  The rails on that
branch have all been taken up now, but the roadbed is still identifiable.

Another place to see a lot of traffic would be Weber Canyon (Interstate 84),
also a U.P. line.  Hope this helps.

Ron Speirs, Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: SP Coast Line (San Jose-LA) may be sold
Organization: LLNL
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:39:42 GMT

In article <5216@bacon.IMSI.COM> jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes) writes:
>Peter Montgomery <pmontgom@math.orst.edu> writes:

: 	Planes serve only those individuals whose journeys both start
: 	and stop in big cities.

: You must be kidding.  California has one of the most extensive
: intrastate air transport networks in the country.  There are over
: thirty destinations inside California with at least daily service.  The
: dominant airline (in terms of takeoffs and landings) at LAX is a
: commuter airline with service focussed on California (SkyWest).

	I presume your point is: what's the need of trains when one
can have airplanes?

	Since you seem to be knowledgable in what SkyWest is like, can
you tell us some typical SkyWest fares? And what sort of reservation
backlog SkyWest typically has? And what SkyWest's on-time performance
is? And what kind of ride one gets in SkyWest's planes?

	And what kind of air-traffic delays does one typically have in
LAX?

: As an example, you can fly 9 times daily between LAX and Fresno on
: SkyWest.  San Luis Obispo has at least a dozen flights out each day.
: Connections on regional airlines are a breeze, and the flights are
: plentiful.  Taking advantage of hub and spoke operations in a
: relatively small geographic area like this is where airlines excel over
: trains.

	Not if you have a lot of tracks :-)

: That said, I'd love to see TGV-type service between San Francisco and
: Los Angeles, with *maybe* a stop in Fresno.

	I won't disagree here. Sufficiently fast train service can
make a lot of the shorter-distance airline service unnecessary, and
can relieve much of the overcrowding of our nation's airports. In
Germany, Lufthansa runs trains, and very successful ones, out of its
Frankfurt hub to several nearby cities. This would be very convenient
here, but not many American airports have good connections with
regional rail lines. Examples:

	LAX and Union Station are separated by half LA's size
(approximately), though there is a freight rail line that passes very
near LAX that _might_ be used for passenger service someday.

	SFO is near the SP line that connects San Francisco and San
Jose; though CalTrain has regular service past SFO, it has no
conveniently situated stop near it. A BART extension is currently
being built to there, though it will not be fininshed until 2000.

	OAK is a short bus ride away (~10m) from the Oakland Coliseum
BART station, which will soon be the site of a new Amtrak station
(probably just an Amshack).

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: rabin@CS.Yale.Edu (Dan Rabin)
Subject: NYC: Grand Concourse-Jerome Ave. track connection
Reply-To: rabin-dan@cs.yale.edu
Organization: Computer Science, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: rec
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 17:57:03 GMT

A few weeks ago there was some discussion speculating about the
existence and location of a track connection in the Bronx between the
Grand Concourse (IND) line and the Jerome Avenue (IRT) line. 

I have a set of contract drawings for the northern end of the IND
line.  These drawings show a third track diverging from between the
two tracks of the IND line directly under E. Mosholu Parkway and
heading west under Van Cortlandt Ave. toward Jerome Ave.  I don't have
any information as to its further course, nor do I know that the line
was built as drawn (I have not inspected the site).  

Tangential remark: The drawings explicitly allow for an extension
under Burke Ave. in a future construction phase.  The extension was
never built; the books I have read attribute this to the fact that the
Dyre Avenue line was later developed to serve the same general area.

  -- Dan Rabin (rabin-dan@cs.yale.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jbvb@vax.ftp.com  (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: Notes from recent transcontinental vacation
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Reply-To: jbvb@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:22:25

In article <1992Sep29.122956.4230@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff) writes:

    By the way, I think the trail you are thinking of goes
    near two interesting tunnels (or two ends of the same
    tunnel) near the river level...

I saw one tunnel opening in a cliff - partially submerged.

James B. VanBokkelen		2 High St., North Andover, MA  01845
FTP Software Inc.		voice: (508) 685-4000  fax: (508) 794-4488

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: cs_a206@kingston.ac.uk (Richard Smart)
Subject: NETWORK S.E. SPECIAL OFFER
Organization: Kingston University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:08:38 GMT




Did anyone else on the net go on the Rail magazine promotion ticket
last weekend for freedom of the S.E of england.

I got as far as Exeter one way and Ashford the other via a rather INDIRECT
route !!!!

-Richard Smart
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson)
Subject: Washington DC Union Station Tunnels
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:21:28 GMT

A while back the question of how far the NEC (ex PRR) electrification extended
thru the tunnel under Capitol Hill, DC.  While researching something else, I
came up with "Washington Terminal RR Electrified Zone Instructions, 1934".  It
sez, in part:

	.... and extends approximately 480 feet south from the portal of the
	First Street Tunnel...

Which is pretty much what we had come up with, anyway.

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
200 Forest St			|I am the NRA.
Marlboro, Mass		01752	pierson@cimnet.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles