HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Russian Coup Books
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:04:37 GMT


I recently re-posted my "Coup Book and Video List" and made
statements about two Russian coup books listed in James
Billington's book.  I thought I'd post the names of these books
for reference (and to ask if anyone knew how to get them in the
US):

Sidorenko, Yuri,  _Tri dnia, kotorye oprokinuli bolshevizm:  Ispoved
	svidetelia, pokazaniia ochevidtsa_, 
	Rostov-na-Donu: Periodika Dona, 1991.

	Early account of the coup by a deputy of the Russian supreme
	soviet.

_Avgust-91_, Moscow:Politizdat, 1991
	
	Compilation of Soviet press reports.

There is another book recently written by Valentin Stepankov who is
the chief investigator of the coup.  Excerpts have been published 
in _Newsweek_.

Stepankov, Valentin and Yevgeny Lisov, _The Kremlin Plot: The
	Investigator's Version_, (to be published by Ogonyok)

_____________________________________

A couple of questions:
	(1) Are any of these books available in the US?
	(2) I'll be (hopefully) going to Russia soon.  Will
	    it be easy to find these books there?

Thanks,

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
From: mitrache@gringo.usc.edu (Traian Mitrache)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re:
Date: 5 Sep 1992 18:46:01 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gringo.usc.edu


In article <01GOFQ9FCU4W8ZE0DW@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>, VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (SERGEI VIZNYUK) writes:
|> > From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
|> >
|> > Sergei Viznyuk writes:
|> >>As you noted yourself, the question in "TransDniester" republic is
|> >>HOW to teach Moldavian language, while in "democratic" Estonia the
|> >>question is "to teach or not to teach Russian at all".
|> >
|> >At least no one has even discussed the possibility of using a Latin
|> >script for Russian.
|> 
|>   As you may know, the ORIGINAL script of MOLDAVIAN
|> language was Cyrrilic, except for the time, Moldova was
|> occupied by Romania, i.e. during 20 years. Therefore,
|> the question is WHY Moldavians were FORCED to change
|> their script to Latin ? It doesn't mean, though,


	Could you please be more specific and tell us exactly which were 
the ONLY 20 years when you think that the script for the Moldavian(Romanian)
language was Cyrrilic?
	Thanx,

Traian
-- 


mitrache@gringo.usc.edu
From: vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (Vadim S. Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Mengele( was: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:22:12 GMT

In article <Bu2GpF.57s@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)  
writes:
>
>     Dr.Mengele was a scientist who conducted his experiments on humans,
>     (though some at the time claimed those were not humans).  In 
>     particular, he did a lot of genetic research on identical twins.
>
Dr. Mengele was a mass murderer PRETENDING to be a scientist.  Even if
we were to put his experiments in a totally amoral context, their scientific
value is still shit.  Or, more precisely, shit point zero.

BTW, he did not do any genetic research.  He used twins as a control:
for example, castrate one of the two twins and see what difference it
would make.  Or inject them with two different kinds of poison...-(.


---
Vadim S. Kaplunovsky               | vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (internet)
Assistant Professor of Physics,    | VADIM AT UTAPHY (bitnet)
University of Texas at Austin.     | UTSPAN::UTAPHY::VADIM (SPAN/HEPnet Decnet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 4 Sep 1992 22:18:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep3.223428.8538@erg.sri.com> vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad) writes:

>for illnesses? I say, it is time that the Academy stopped both its
aantisemitic policies and its meddling in its members' private lives.

Sorry, it looks like you missed the begining of the thread, the
Academy in question is American Nasional Academy of sciences.

Yury

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:35:00 GMT


>>How do you think it feels for me to look in the newspapers every day and
>>read about another five year old girl found raped and dead in a garbage
>>can? What about when my mother called the police when my father was

>Sorry, but I can not help being sarcastic here. Do you really mean
>that every day at least one youngster is raped and killed. Am I 
>really that bad informed? Or you just keep reading one newspaper
>all the time?

>Yury

Unfortunately, you are badly informed. Every day many more than one youngster
is raped, I'm not sure exactly how many are killed. But we are surrounded
by a sea of such violence, even though we can't see it. If you get a lot
of major urban newspapers, and read them thouroughly and keep count, you
will get sick rather than sarcastic.

If you are sincerely curious, try contacting the FBI's National Center
for Information on Violent Crime (? not sure about exact title).

Many people still can't believe that 6 million Jews were murdered, either.
And I can't tell you how many left-wing Stalin apologists I meet who think
they are rational, liberal champions of human rights who
nonetheless refuse to believe that Stalin perpetrated the atrocities
attributed to him, and they refuse to believe that anyone really suffered
under Soviet rule.

And, of course, they blame the "exaggerations" on Jews, but they are
liberal and can't afford to be called antisemitic, so they use the
code word "Zionists" for those insane malcontents who fell out of love
with the Communist Party.

-patricia
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: what to do with Kurils?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:40:48 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

your opinions, pls
	
	-igor
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.romania
From: mihai@sep.Stanford.EDU (Alexander Mihai Popovici)
Subject: Re: Moldova and another Russian Nationalistic Ignorant  
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 04:58:18 GMT

In article <01GOFQ9FCU4W8ZE0DW@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>, VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (SERGEI VIZNYUK) writes:
|> >
|> > Sergei Viznyuk writes:
|> >>As you noted yourself, the question in "TransDniester" republic is
|> >>HOW to teach Moldavian language, while in "democratic" Estonia the
|> >>question is "to teach or not to teach Russian at all".
|> >
|> >At least no one has even discussed the possibility of using a Latin
|> >script for Russian.
|> 
|>   As you may know, the ORIGINAL script of MOLDAVIAN
|> language was Cyrrilic, except for the time, Moldova was
|> occupied by Romania, i.e. during 20 years. Therefore,
|> the question is WHY Moldavians were FORCED to change
|> their script to Latin ? 

Boy, amazing what some people can post.
In the same sentence this guy claims that Moldova was 
occupied by Romania for 20 years AND that the Cyrillic (note the spelling)
^^^^^^^^
alphabet was used for the rest of the time.

I can only say that the part of Romania which is generally
refered to as Basarabia (Bessarabia) became
the Socialist Republic of Moldavia after it was occupied by Russia in 1940.

It is true there are some finer points to this
region's history, mainly related to the invasion of
the Principate of Moldova by Russia during numerous
wars against Turkey.
I am willing to post some more details only because
a gentleman like Erland was involved in the beginning
of this thread, meaning there is some hope.
Otherwise such appalling ignorance can utterly disarm.

Cheers
MIhai
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: linnan@niksula.hut.fi (Matti Linnanvuori)
Subject: Re: Visa and border control
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:05:43

   Finland had (has?) agreement with SU, and was routinely 
   returning refugees,
   whom they found on their territory. The only way was to cross 
   Finland and get to Sweden.

  Finland did have a border agreement with the SU. Since late 80's,
hundreds of Soviets have arrived to apply for a political asylum,
and their applications are properly investigated. At the moment,
Finland officially thinks ex-Soviet authorities don't persecute
their citizens, and, consequently, doesn't usually grant political
asylums for them, mostly Russians or Estonians.
  A unique event happened a couple of days ago: a major from the
Russian Border Guard "defected", applied for a political asylum.
Moscow sent high-ranking officers to get informed. The Finnish
authorities are expected to make a decision next week.
  As another sidenote, the Russian ambassador Juri Derjabin accused
Finnish border guards of violence towards Russians. The Finnish
Minister of the Interior denied the existence of such violence.
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:50:49 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:00:13 GMT
>From: Alex Goykhman <goykhman_a@APOLLO.HP.COM>


>    Every civilized society develops certain moral criterias and applies them
>    to its members.  For example, our society (hopefully) rejects anti-semitism
>    as being morally unacceptable.

>    I have no problems with Shafarevich joing the Yugoslavian or Iraqi
>    Academy of Sciences, but he should be expelled from the NAS.


What do you mean by "anti-semitism" here?

I would say, it is unjust opinions, feeling or actions, concerning a
person of Jewish origin, ancestry, ethnical background and/or religion,
based just on the fact (real or alleged) of said origin etc. of this
person, expressed explicitly _or_ implicitly _or_ _unexpressed_ (it
does not matter for the fact of _presence_ of antisemitsm itself).

Of course, to be in right to accuse somebody of antisemitism, you have
to provide sufficient evidence of either his explicit expression of this,
_or_ sufficient facts of its _implicit_ expression by him, _together_
with _reasonable_ proof of why do you think those implicit expressions
provide sufficient evidence to think they _are_ expressions of
antisemitism.

Can you provide such an evidence for Shafarevich's case? I'm not sure.
He is nearly paranoidal in chasing (real and/or alleged) russophobia,
seeing it where it is hardly presented - that's right. He accuses numerous
Jewish activists/circles in it - that's true also. Does he express injust/
agressive opinions toward Jewish individuals or Jewish nation as a whole?
I think the answer is yes. So, that's his personal problem. His flaws are
in fact quite obvious for nearly everybody, except him, of course. He does
not defend his cause well. (In last interviews he does it slightly better,
still far from perfect.) Let's think he would start blaming Turks for main
Russian problems. Would he be right? I don't think so. He would say Turks
must be jerks, because they are Moslems. Would he be right? Probably:-).
Still, would you demand his expell from Academy so strongly? Or promote
him to Yugoslavian Academy? I actually doubt it.


D.L.
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: DEMOCRATIC Estonia
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:18:04 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki




In article <1992Aug29.153408.3294@physics.ucla.edu>, viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu
 (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:

>             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   You are misinformed. Russian parlament was worried
> not with that Russians in Estonia were denied "precious"
> Estonian citizenship, but with human rights violations
> in Estonia, whether they concern citizens or non-citizens.
> Ditto: as you may know, from several hundred thousand
> Russians or Russian-speaking non-Russians, living in Estonia,
> only 5,000 have stated their desire to become Estonian
> citizens so far. Do you really think that just every
> Russian, even in Estonia, is dreaming about Estonian
> citizenship ? The problem is with human rights, first
> of all.
> 


Well, I have a hunch that here we are getting somewhere! When reading the
discussion above I couldn't avoid the impression that the problem of
treatment of the Russian-speaking population in Estonia concerned
mainly the citizenship question.

The standard Estonian standpoint on the citizenship question 
has been cleared above in the very same manner as the Estonians 
residing permanently in Estonia usually do. I think there is not much 
to add to the question of citizenship - could we skip it for a moment 
and really concentrate us on the question of human rights in Estonia 
and the new constitution, which deserves our attention, as I think?

But first, my unknown Russian friend, I would like you to be more
precise:
What are the alleged human rights violations in Estonia (I am not
referring to time of Soviet occupation but of Estonian independency)?

We should be more precise, I think! I am personally getting 
little tired of listening Russian diplomats (like in July 1992 
in Helsinki CSCE) with unprecise accusations! 

If we could have some matter-of-fact cases then we might examine them
and prove whether the young Estonian republic is truly democratic 
and on the road towards the mainstream of civilization!

                  ******************

Our common aim: peace, democracy, mutual trust and prosperity
around the Gulf of Finland!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki (50km from the Estonian border)
From: stojanov@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:05:23 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

I missed the answer.  Would you mind sending it to me,
that is if you saved it.
Thanks,

Milan N. Stojanovic
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7802 soc.culture.soviet:7340
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: A GDE ZH NASH DOROGOI TOVARISHCH ???
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:29:57 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet

in article <1992Sep9.032106.987@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, phvas@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Vsevolod A Sukhanovsky) says:
# Xref: cronos talk.politics.soviet:11648 soc.culture.soviet:8665
# 
# Vernuvshis' iz otpuska, ya s glubokim priskorbiem obnaruzhil polnoe 
# otsutstvie nashikh turetskikh tovarishchei (mutla & co., ltd) v efire.
# Chto sluchilos'? Libo zarabotal moi kill-file (kotoryi ran'she
# Mutlu ne bral), libo... Strashno dazhe dumat' ob etom...
# 
# Tak chto zhe s nimi stalo?   

V otpuske. Ty dumajesh', esli mutlak, tak emu i otpusk ne polozhen?

-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 21:10:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.035408.17528@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Vadim Antonov (avg@rodan.UU.NET) writes:
>>I see no
>>difference between Communist forceful introduction of Russian language
>>and the present forceful introduction of Estionian language by the
>>"democratic" government. Again, even under communism nobody ever got
>>expelled for knowing no Russian.
>
>And no one gets expelled for not knowing Estonian. How about
>checking up a few facts before you open your mouth? Not
>getting citizenship does not mean "be expelled".

  Only for the last year more than 13,000 people fled Estonia
for Russia. Unfortunately I don't have exact fugure for this year,
but by all accounts it should be even more. So far for your
"no one gets expelled", dear Erland.

>
>>The Estonian government seems to not recognize permanent residence
>>criteria and base its citizenship law solely on ethnicity which is
>>universally considered a kind of racism.
>
>Please quote relevant parts of the Estonian citizenship law which
>says that citizenship is based on ethnicity. Hint: you will have
>severe problems with finding any.

 Not really. By projecting the Estonian citizehship
only to those who were citizens of Estonia before 1940
and their descendants, Estonian regime effectively
outlawed all non-Estonians. If it would not suffice
for them, they, no doubt, would invent other criteria,
let's say, form of sculp.

>
>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>There are three sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian and Macedonian
>

S.V.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7710 soc.culture.soviet:7114
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:03:25 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet

in article <Bu0FsM.7A7@apollo.hp.com>, goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) says:
> 
>     Should then Dr.Mengele become an Honorary Member of NAS
>     because of the unique medical experiments he conducted
>     in the Nazi concentration camps?

If X is already a member of NAS, and then he turns out to be a 
killer/rapist/scam/racist/idiot,  he still should NOT be expelled from
NAS because of that.

Otherwise NAS will turn itself into a court.

> 
>     You seems to be confusing one's private and public 
>     behaviour.  Shafarevich is an outspoken anti-semit,
>     and as such does not belong to NAS.
> 

Za nedostojnoje povedenije, iskljuchit' tovarishcha Shafarevicha iz
rjadov nashej slavnoj NASticheskoj partii!

BTW, NAS is not EXPELLING him.
They only ASK him to leave NAS "po sobstvennomu zhelaniju".

So, NAS is much smarter, though I think that they should not do even this;
probably, best of all would be if such a request came from some
"private" NAS persons instead of "oficial" ones.


-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 7 Sep 92 06:29:18 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

>While rape can be viewed as a grotesque form of expressing one's perceived
>"machismo", it is a very narrow view.

It is not an expression of "machismo" any more than torturing a political
prisoner is an expression of politics. That's not what I meant.

The political climate allows such crimes to flourish, beacuse the victims
are stigmatized, being marginal and less powerful members of societt than
the offenders.

But the universal aspect of this type of crime is the desire to express
total power over another human being, or a person regarded as less of
a human being.

"Machismo" is something completely different, a side issue.

And you are absolutely right about homosexual (and lesbian!) rape.
They are in general very brutal, when they occur. But really, there's
no such thing as kind, gentle rape - the loss of identity that a person
experiences, the feeling of being reduced to absolutely nothing with
no more self-determination or self-esteem - this type of damage is far
worse than any physical damage to the body.

I know, I've been there many times when I was growing up.

Control and power - those are the issues. The social and poltical
attitudes towards women which are encoded by the word "machismo"
make this crime more possible, and more hidden, and more likely,
but "machismo" is certainly not the reason or motivation for rape.

I hope that helped clarify things for you.

-patricia
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: democratic Estonia
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:46:19 GMT

"talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:

>  So now, at long last, Jarmo understood that Estonia & Latvia
>have taken a honorable place not among the more or less
>civilized european nations but rather among such thriving "democracies"
>as Uzbekistan and Azerbajdzhan. That was also my point, Jarmo.

We hear a lot of complaints about 'human rights violations' in Estonia
and Latvia when there is little evidence of any 'ethnic cleansing'.
At the same time nobody is paying attention to what is happening
to human rights in other ex-Soviet republics.

There has been a lot of 'sympathy' for the 'poor suffering Russians'
in the Baltics, but the same people who criticize Balts seldom have
anything to say about Tadjiks or Kazakhs.
 
In fact, Russia has been very cautious in criticizing some of 
the CIS members though it has declared to protect the rights of
Russians in other countries. 

>outright fascistic citizenship laws.

Didn't the Soviets use the word 'fascist' a lot in their propaganda?
Not that it's a convenient label though.

>  Serega & Co

Janne Kivela"

^L

With all the single quotes my posting looks like a real S.V. posting.
Frightening.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 22:21:06 GMT

In article <188nc0INN8jj@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.223428.8538@erg.sri.com> vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad) writes:
>
>>for illnesses? I say, it is time that the Academy stopped both its
>aantisemitic policies and its meddling in its members' private lives.
>
>Sorry, it looks like you missed the begining of the thread, the
>Academy in question is American Nasional Academy of sciences.
>
>Yury

Apologies!

Looks like I did mistake it for the Russian academy of science. 

That changes a lot. I believe that since Shafarevich's membership in the
Russian academy of Sciences is vital for his profession and his livelihood,
he should never be expelled from it.

However, his membership in the American Academy is an honorary one with
little influence on Shafarevich's livelihood. Thus, his non-scientific
activities can be relevant. So, given the fact that Shafarevich is engages
in dissemenation of misanthropic, hateful ideas, that his recent political
statements exhibit total ignorance, demagogy, and lack of elementary logic,
given that his "arguments" are insulting in their stupidity and ani-science
stance, I see no reason why the US Academy of science cannot expel this
proponent of fascism from its ranks. Especially since Shafarevich is openly
hostile towards the United states of America and its values and politics.

Vlad

Employer disagrees



Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7807 rec.arts.startrek.current:12860