HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jon@b-tech.ann-arbor.mi.us (Jon Zeeff)
Subject: Re: Cruise control for ski boat
Organization: UMCC, Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:08:37 GMT

>|> Can I get a cruise control for my ski boat (inboard)?  If not, it there any
>
>I would certainly hope that these do not exist!!!  It would be extremely
>dangerous - I can see drivers putting on cruise and ignoring the water ahead
>of them while they watch the skier (or whatever).  NO BOAT should be able to
>cruise without a driver managing the controls (steering, throttle, etc.)

I've yet to see a ski boat that didn't keep cruising right along if I 
quit managing the controls.  All drivers pay some attention to the 
speedo, distracting them from important things like the water ahead 
and the skier.  With an adequate override, I maintain that it would be 
SAFER.  

>In driving for events such as tricks and slalom, I find that the accuracy of
>any type of cruise control system would be worthless.  Judging by the systems
>that are on automobiles that I own, they allow too much fluctuation.  The

Yes, typical automobile ones aren't very good.  Having worked on automotive
control systems, I know that it can be done well.

>tolerance in a tournament is minimal (and even when "free" skiing or
>practicing skiers like a consistent speed) and the pull of the skier is often
>times strong enough to drastically change the speed of the boat.  Any cruise
>system would not respond with the same intuition as a human driver, nor with
>the proper subtleties required to provide a smooth and consistent pull.  I

"a machine can't do this" has been said so many times and been proven wrong
that I tend to discount it unless someone has actually tried it.  It might
be true that waiting for the boat to slow down (a tiny bit) before adding
throttle might be too late a response.  But there are solutions for this.

-- 
Jon Zeeff   NIC handle JZ   jon@ais.org  zeeff@b-tech.ann-arbor.mi.us
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: The Freedom 21
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:05:30 GMT

I took Dudley Gaman's advice and went down to Pete's Landing, stood
between Spinnaker Sailing and the Grease Pit, stared out at the Salt
Pile (which is not visible, being hidden behind Howard Hughes' CIA
monstrosity) and looked to my left about 3/4 the way up. Well, I could
not see anything, so I walked out there (Pete's is an open marina). Yep,
there it was, Belezza, a Freedom 21 and, most interestingly, with all
the spinnaker gear mounted. The pole swivels from the pulpit and there's
a long, giant condom thing that stretches from the pulpit back to the
cockpit and from which the spinnaker can be sucked back in or shot out.
Wow! A neat idea -- if it works. There are some differences between
Belezza and The Green Machine. Belezza looks newer. No port=holes, but
dark Lexan covering very long cut-out side openings. So, no air or spray,
but lots of light. I guess this is why there is the small square opening
deck port forward. The GM has conventional rectangular opening portholes,
so less smooth but more air -- and spray. On Belezza the rails come
down to deck level at eithwer side of the transom, whereas GM has rails
the whole way round. Also, Belezza has a small port for the anchor chain
where GM does not. All in all very illuminating. I'd prefer B, but I'll
take GM IF it has the spinnaker gear. The Freedom 21 certainly looks like
our boat -- if the draught is not too much for my side tie ($4 a boat foot)
at the Port. Anyone know the draught? Does 4' sound right?

Gybe Ho!

francis@sep.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: legacy@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (wayne.m.simpson)
Subject: Re: Looking around
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:23:51 GMT
Summary: difference between Freedoms

In article <1992Jul24.200955.24740@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Wayne Simpson writes:
>
>	Back in the old Garry Hoyt days at Freedom, there was a Freedom 21.
>	This was a cat sloop design with very small self tending jib (Hoyt 
>	called it and "accelerator/energizer", anything to keep from calling 
>	it a jib.), a fin keel, a gun mount spinnaker and some heavy duty 
>	advertising. There was a magazine ad picturing one of these little 
>	boats working to windward on Naragansett Bay in about 40 knots of 
>	wind and a steep chop. Very impressive...
>
>	The Freedom 20 is, I think, a Gary Mull design as are most of the 
>	newer Freedoms. I expect it, too, has a fin or wing keel. The 
>	Freedom Independance is a Freedom 20 modified for disabled sailors. 
>	There are two swiveling chairs for the helm and crew positions. 
>	Wheelchair bound sailors strap themselves into the chairs and go 
>	sailing with the help of a single able bodied crew member, who put 
>	up the sails and does the other jobs requiring one to get up.
>
>Now I am thoroughly confused. My broker says it is a Freedom 20 with the
>funny seats, and Dudley Gaman says it is a Freedom 21 -- and he should
>know, his brother has one. This is definitely a cat boat, but with a lot
>of go-fast Harken hardware, and everything, reefing and all, leads back
>to the cockpit. Oh yes, lazy jacks. Free-standing mast (that MUST be Hoyt).
>and a fitting on the pulpit that looks like it has something to do with
>a spinnaker (pole hole? gun carriage?). The baoat is called the Green
>Machine and looks ominously fast. So, which is it? Who designed it. If its
>a 20, I save $4 on dock fees... Yes, it does have a spinnaker halyard.
>

   The old Freedom 21 was a Garry Hoyt design. It is distinguished by
its having no windows on the cabin house. All Freedoms, whether designed
by Garry Hoyt or Gary Mull, have free standing carbon fiber spars. That
is the concept on which the Freedom line is based.
   The new Freedom 20 (or maybe it is a 21, also) was designed most likely
by Gary Mull and has windows on the cabin house. The Freedom Independance
(boat for the handicapped) is based on this newer design. The gun mount
spinnaker is a Gary Hoyt invention, and no doubt Freedom retained the 
rights to produce it when Hoyt bailed out of his interest in Freedom 
Yachts.

Wayne Simpson (no fancy .sig this time)

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: bennett@erich.triumf.ca (P.Bennett)
Subject: Re: Olympics Sailing News/Results
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 05:05:00 GMT

In article <l7googINN51q@west.west.sun.com>, chandler@tabasco.West.Sun.COM writes...
>In article 712525306@ogre, will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler) writes:
>>In <l7gag1INNscm@west.west.sun.com> chandler@tabasco.West.Sun.COM (Don Chandler) writes:
>>
>>>Also, what is "the black flag rule"?  As far as I know, we never used such a
>>>rule in SF Bay.
>>
>>With the black flag up anyone who is over the line within the 1 minute
>>timespan before the start is automatically DSQed.  Sometimes race committees
>>will fly this flag if the fleet has several general recalls.  The one-minute
>>rule (requiring that you sail around the ends if over within one minute)
>>also helps prevent general recalls.
> 
>Interesting.  The "Round-the-ends" rule, according to the Rules, is
>signaled by the "I" flag (square yellow flag, with black circle in the
>middle).    The general practice here (SF Bay) has been to not have the
>round-the-ends rule in effect, and then, when a fleet does have a
>general recall, put it into effect for their second start sequence, for
>exactly the reason you cite: prevent yet another general recall.  
> 
>I know that the various YRA's have their own standing rules, but,
>still, I've never seen a black flag used here nor have we run races
>where a yacht was automatically DSQ'd for being over early.  It
>certainly isn't part of the suggested USSA Championship Sailing
>Instructions or the USSA Rules.  What is the rationale behind having
>this provision?
> 
The Canadian Yachting Association Race Management Manual sez:
"Death Flag"
...
Sailing instructions providing for disqualification of PMS yachts have come
into being in the past few years as the result of frustration on the part of
race committees trying to deal with fleets of fity or one hundreds of small, 
highly manoeverable boats...

Typically, invocation of the disqualification rule is signalled with either
code flag "D", or a black flag... Any boat (over the line) one minute (or
sometimes 5 min.) prior to the start is disqualified from that race or any
subsequent restarts of that race.  When the "death flag" is being used there
will be no individual recalls."

The manual states that there is, at present, no standard phrasing for sailing
instructions to cover this, but that the IYRR Rules Committee is working on it.

Peter Bennett VE7CEI                | Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight
Internet: bennett@erich.triumf.ca   | of one another only when one can be
Bitnet:   bennett@triumfer          | observed visually from the other
TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., Canada     |                          ColRegs 3(k)

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: wwalker@qualcomm.com (Bill Walker)
Subject: Re: Want info on C-15 and JY-15
Followup-To: rec.boats
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:53:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.022835.23039@reed.edu>, tim@reed.edu (Timothy R.
Flanagan) wrote:
> 
> I am considering the purchase of a small one-design day-sailer. 
> I am currently considering two designs in particular:  The Coronado 15
> (or C-15), and the newer JY-15.  I am seeking recommendations from 
> sailors with experience on either boat.
> 
> I am almost positive that I would enjoy owning the Rod Johnstone-designed 
> JY-15 more than the C-15, but it will also cost me almost twice as much.  A 
> new C-15 runs around $2500, while the JY runs around $4500.  Added to this 
> is the fact that there are plenty of used C-15s around, while the JY-15 was
> only introduced in 1989.  The upshot of this is that I can save lots of 
> money by buying a used C-15, but this option does not exist for the JY-15.
> 
[stuff deleted]
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Timothy R. Flanagan

Tim, I asked JY for a JY15 brochure, and a couple weeks after I got the
brochure, I got a discounted price offer from them because they wanted to
establish a fleet in my area.  Perhaps this would also be true in your
area.  The price, as I recall, was $4K for one boat, and lower prices if
you could get friends or a club to buy boats together.

I can't comment on the boat itself.

----------
Bill Walker - WWalker@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA
All opinions expressed are mine, and do not reflect those of my employer.
"First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Olympics Sailing News/Results
From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:51:19 GMT
Organization: C.C.S.O.

In article <16833A52A.EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>
EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans) writes:
 
>Clari.sports.olympic occasionally contains sailing related articles.  Maybe
>others don't have access to this news group.  Or, maybe they do, but this is
>not the sort of "results" you are looking for.  Assuming the former, I am
>posting the sailing articles currently on clari.sports.olympic.  If you would   ris MacDonald) writes:
>later of the above two hypotheses hold.
>
 
The last two lines of this got garbled.  It should have read: "If you would
like for me to continue this, please send me a message (email), otherwise I
will assume that the latter of the above two hypotheses hold (and will stop
wasting resources.)
>
>Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans          Those who can, teach;
>                                     those who can't, don't;
>eplus17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu             and too many who think they
>or EPLUS17@UIUCVMD                   can teach neither can nor do.
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: joel@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark)
Subject: Re: What can rip a mainsail?
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:45:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.213710.98258@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> bwb1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRENT W. BENSON) writes:
}In less than 20 knots of wind, what can rip out a mainsail if it is in any
}reasonable condition?
}The question comes up because a 43' Beneteau we chartered in the BVI last week
}had a very questionable main...i.e. half torn batten pockets, worn off
}stitching, lots of previous repairs, oldish yellow color...and it ripped out
}while beating in 15-20kt with one reef.  The charterer's representative said
}that we had contributed to the abuse of the sail, and intended to tell the
}owner that we should pay half of the repair cost.  We had seen the overall
}poor condition of the sail early in the trip and were being quite careful with
}it not wanting to have a glitch in the cruise.  But, the charterer does not
}necessarily have a reason to believe this.  Hence the question.

I own a 42' sailboat in charter with a charter agent in the Pacific NW.
My experiences indicate that if you make a big enough stink, complain,
threaten to write to SAIL or Cruising World, etc and the charter agent
will stick the owner for all of it.

joel clark
From: chandler@tabasco.West.Sun.COM (Don Chandler)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Olympics Sailing News/Results
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:42:25 GMT
Reply-To: chandler@tabasco.West.Sun.COM
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: tabasco.west.sun.com

In article 1778@panix.com, spencer@panix.com (David Spencer) writes:
>On the mass PMS:
>
>1. Why didn't people re-round? Are all races under the black flag
>rule? Aren't they calling sail numbers?
>
>2. Hasn't the committee heard of a general recall? If half the fleet
>(including the past two world champs) is over, I'd sure call 'em
>back.... Even if all classes sailing in the same start area (a
>supremely dumb idea), it's not _that_ big a deal.
>
>Can anybody get a copy of the instructions?
>
>dhs   spencer@panix.com   Sonar 404

I don't have my Rule book handy, so can only paraphrase.  The Rules clearly put
the onus of making a proper start on the skipper, NOT the Race Committee.  The
Rule goes something like: "...nothing shall relieve the yacht from starting 
correctly...".  I've done lots of racing and lots of RC work, and it never ceases
to amaze me how many people really believe that if the "X" flag goes up (Individual
Recall), and the RC hasn't hailed your sail number, you started OK.  NOT!
The Rules allow the RC to hail you, but don't require it.

It's sort of like another fairly subtle point: many racers believe that the "gun" 
denotes the warning/prep/start.  Again, NOT!  The rules clearly state the sound
signals are made only to call attention to the visual signals,  and the visual
signals prevail.

Also, what is "the black flag rule"?  As far as I know, we never used such a
rule in SF Bay.

	Don
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: dwl@watson.ibm.com (David W. Levine)
Subject: Re: Anybody know anything about Evelyn boats???
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:59:44 GMT
Reply-To: dwl@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center

Hmm. Looking at this spring's scratch sheets, the Evelyn 32 we normally
see is down at PHRF 96. That's a YRA of LIS rating, which, if anything
run 3-6 seconds a mail higher than other places.

David W. Levine      -- IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center
dwl@watson.ibm.com   -- (914) 784-7427 

My Opinions, IBM's hardware. --
From: greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Frostbiting (Was: Man Overboard, again)
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:51:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1682D112CC.EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu> EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans) writes:
>problem is self limiting...when its below freezing, the water also freezes on
>the deck of the board, making footing a real problem.  (If anyone knows of a
>way to get around this, please let me know.)
> 
Spiked shoes?
 
Crampons?
 
Greg
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: steph@cs.uchicago.edu (Stephen Wilson Bailey)
Subject: Re: Recursion Racing Report 7/18,7/19
Organization: University of Chicago Computer Science
	<1992Jul21.201827.5003@watson.ibm.com>
	<1992Jul22.020112.16478@phri.nyu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:37:47 GMT

I've noticed similar anomalies in our club's time-on-time
computations.

Particularly, different boats, with the same handicap having their TOT
factors carried to different precisions.  Of course, this never really
matters, since the club races aren't that close anyway :^)

I've also seen boats with one PHRF handicap on the result printout,
and another one used to compute their corrected time.

Anybody want to write a scoring package that uses exact rational
arithmetic, and dontate it to the USSA?  You'd probably have to write
it in BASIC :^)

Steph
From: drmsr+@pitt.edu (Marc S Rosenthal)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Sailing in Seattle, WA.  Info Needed.
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:09:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


	I am thinking about moving to the Seattle area later this year.
I would like to know, from current or former sailors in the area, what
sailing clubs have significant Laser fleets and potentially 470 fleets
and space available for both.  I am interested in clubs on either
Puget Sound or Lake Washington.
	I need to be able to rent space for my Laser and 470.  In addition
I would like to join a club that has an active racing program for
both.  Finally, I would like to know the costs for club membership and 
dry space rental fees for both boats.
	A final question, where can one find, without waiting years, a 
dock space for a 30ft sailboat and what are the current mooring costs
in Seattle for such a space. (I know I am asking a lot)
	I appreciate any response the this request.  Thanks in advance.
Please email me direct on this.

Marc Rosenthal
drmsr@unix.cis.pitt.edu

Laser 90393
470 US1448
(412)242-7442
WB2FGV
From: axm@genrad.com (Aldo Mastrocola)
Newsgroups: rec.,rec.boats
Subject: Inflatable Boat for Sale
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:40:11 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: GenRad, Inc.


	1985 Zodiac Inflatable boat Model MKII.
	13 feet 9 inches long, gray with wooden floor. 
	Excellent shape.
	Mercury 25XD motor.
	Trailer, anchor, and many other accessories.
	$3000.00
	Call Hans at (508) 448-2504
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: legacy@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (wayne.m.simpson)
Subject: Re: What about Seidelmann 25's?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:01:49 GMT
Summary: thumbnail sketch of Seidelmann 25

In article <26100016@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> ben@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Benjamin Ellsworth) writes:
>
>Do any of you have opinions about Seidleman 25's?  On paper it looks
>like a very good match, but I'd like some more information before I
>embark on a 1000mi drive.

   Since Seidelmann was a New Jersey boatbuilder (maybe they had other plants
as well) I guess I chime in here. I wintered next to a Seidelmann 25 a few
years ago and got to know her owner that spring. He was a dullard, but that
isn't the boat's fault.
   The S-25 is heavily influenced by the IOR rule, and looks the part of
the racer it's supposed to be. Very fine entry and a severely pinched 
stern. It also has a very unusual hull form, with sharply vee'd sections
all the way from bow to stern. It has a relatively narrow beam at the water-
line with a lot of flare to the hull and a wide beam at the deck. Maximum
fairbody draft is a lot deeper than you will normally see. The  hull almost
looks like it was generated by taking sections off a solid cone.
   I don't know what effect this hull shape has on the boat's performance
or stability, but I can tell you that it is unusual. This particular
boat also had a sail drive. From everything I've heard, sail drives belong
in fresh water only, due to corrosion problems. A sail drive gives you
all of the problems associated with outboards coupled with the hardships
associated with inboards. To make matters worse, they require a 6 inch 
hole in the bottom that gets sealed with a rubber boot.
   A week or two after the guy with the Seidelmann launched, he was back.
Seems he had trouble with the sail drive. I think he junked it and went 
with a conventional outboard on a bracket. His bout was maybe 5 years 
old at the time and meticulously maintained.
   I'm afraid thats all I know about the Seidelmann 25, except that the
company went out of business last year (along with the rest of New Jersey's
boatbuilders) and you may have a hard time with parts and service.

>(The Catalina 25 is still in the running, but it's a swing keel version
>and swing keels on that are not getting rave reviews.  Any opinions on
>the swing keels on C25's?)

   Too heavy for a movable appendage. Consistent problems with cable
breakage. The fixed keel version is a better boat, but if you need 
trailerability you might be willing to make this compromise.

***************************************************************************
                                      Wayne Simpson, Technical Editor
(insert standard                      National Catalina 27 Association
        disclaimer here)              wms@spin.ho.att.com
                                      (908) 949-0482
***************************************************************************
From: dudley@treefort.Corp.Sun.COM (Dudley Gaman)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Cruise control for ski boat
Date: 30 Jul 1992 20:02:43 GMT
Organization: The Treefort
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: treefort.corp.sun.com

In article <1992Jul30.175948.6328@sei.cmu.edu> jwh@sei.cmu.edu (John Huber) writes:

>NO BOAT should be able to
>cruise without a driver managing the controls (steering, throttle, etc.)

I hope you mean no SKI boat.  It is quite common for sail boats to cruise
with an auto-pilot or wind vane.  

Dudley
.
From: webby@reg.triumf.ca (David Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Looking for (not expensive) Wrist-Watch for Sailing
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:21:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <5011@transfer.stratus.com>, kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner) writes...
>... 
>Anyone have any recommendation or experience with cheap watches with
>techno-goodies?
> 
The only watch that I know of that has a barometer/altimeter on it is made by Casio and 
can be had in Vancouver for $90 (CDN) plus taxes from the Mountain Equipment Co-op.  It
has an analog clock and an independently setable digital clock, but no light!  Only the
minute hand is luminous.  The digital portion also has a depth meter (watch rated to 
100M), alarm, stop watch, and countdown timer.  The timer is very easy to set to any 1
minute interval, but is not adjustable while it's running (like most "yatching" watches
are).  The timer's only audible signal occurs at 0 sec (no intervals).

DW
Newsgroups: rec.boats