From: callum@bain3.bain.oz.au (Callum Gibson)
Subject: Re: Changing nature of God
Organization: Bain & Company, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:29:02 GMT

C. G. Albone (chrisa@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU) wrote:
> >Sin exists because of choice and free-will.  Yes, if there was no sin then
> >there would be no free will but what fun would that be?  You'd be back to the
> >old robot situation again.  I guess the reason I believe in free-will is
> >because I believe in sin.
>  There exists sin, hence there exists free will. But it would appear that in
> accepting any notion of sin, you commit yourself to a belief in free will. The
> result of this is effectively that you believe in free will because you do.

No, I didn't say that.  I said I believe in free-will because I believe in sin.
I believe in sin because I believe in the bible (apart from being able to
see and experience it).

> Does God need to be told how great God is? At times i wonder whether this God
> suffers from insecurity problems. But then, I guess i should not confuse what

I suppose you are free to draw whatever conclusions you like about why God
created the world and mankind.  You may think it egotistical to create beings
so that they will worship you.  I think He created us because of the joy
that is possible (for us) by knowing Him.  Our life is a gift from God and
we should be thankful for it.  Maybe people would like to comment on why they
think God created the world?

> >Yes.  You said He was all-knowing didn't you?
> So, while there is free will, God knows how we are going to act anyway? In which
> case how free are we? In which case it would seem that your God has defeated his
> own purpose in that he already knows that joe smith will worship him and that
> freddy will not.

As I already said, knowing something and wanting something are two different
things.  I don't know what you think "my God's purpose" is that he has
supposedly defeated by allowing free-will.  God _wants_ all people to be saved
but he knows otherwise.  These two things are not mutually exclusive.  I may
want to fly but I know if I jump out of this building I'll break my neck (or
at least several other major and vital parts of my body).  Like I say, there
is no way to have free-will and not have sin (at least not now after the fall
and not until we are perfected in Christ when He returns (this will get us
into another sticky discussion which hasn't arisen for a while)).  You may
ask whether it was worthwhile for God to create us if not everyone would
follow Him - an all-or-nothing type situation.  Well, from the point of a
believer it is.  Let's remember that everyone has a choice and will be
judged fairly.  It's much better for me and other believers having made the
right decision.  It's a bit like why couples (usually) have babies.  Why do
they?  They are going to be able to give that child a perfect life (does such
a thing exist) so maybe they shouldn't bother having it.  There are other
factors like love that come into it.  God has heaps of love to give to people
so why not make some so that He can love them and have a relationship with
them?  Just so its even, He gives them free-will so they can love Him freely
in return.  If they choose not love Him back, what's He going to do?  Force
them to spend eternity with Him anyway?  No, give them want they wanted and
chose - eternity without Him.  It seems simple to me.

regards,
    Callum
-- 
Callum Gibson                           callum@bain3.bain.oz.au
Eyeball Temporary Analyst/Programmer    BH : +61 2 258 1620
Fixed Income Division                   Fax: +61 2 258 1128
Bain & CO, Sydney, Australia.           AH : :-)