HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clint@matia.Stanford.EDU (Jennifer Dole)
Subject: Re: Who did OBE research? (was Re: Statistics.)
Organization: Psychology Dept, Stanford Univ.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:55:51 GMT

Original-Sender: clint@matia.Stanford.EDU (Jennifer Dole)

[ I'm copying this article from alt.dreams, since it seems relevant to our
  discussions in alt.out-of-body.  I hope we can get folks in alt.dreams
  who want to talk about OBEs to cross-post.  --Gary (gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us) ]

In article <031936.18496@tcsi.com> miket@hermes.tcs.com
	(Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.) activated:

>LaBerge has done some fairly extensive OOBE experiments.  He had people "leave
>their bodies" and go look at things hidden away at specified destinations,
>and return to report on what they'd seen.  Despite getting statistically
>valid amounts of sample data, there was no significant correlation of the
>reports: everybody saw different things.  Many of the test subjects believed
>implicitly in OOBE, and many of these people *still* do.  None are so blind as
>those who will not see -- or see that they CAN'T see, I guess.  LaBerge was
>disappointed in these results, but seemed resigned to them, at least from
>what I read.

>Michael Turner

Hold up there! You must have misinterpreted a part of the book
_Lucid_Dreaming_. Stephen LaBerge did NOT do the "fairly extensive
OOBE experiments" that you describe. I believe you are thinking
of the OBE investigations of Karlis Osis, to which LaBerge only
refers, in his book, _Lucid_Dreaming_. I quote from chapter nine,
page 245:

"First of all we have the summary of Karlis Osis, Director of
Research at the American Society for Psychical Research. This
society, in an effort to produce evidence for survival after
death, undertook an extensive investigation of OBE perception.
In the course of the study, approximately a hundred subjects,
all of whom believed they were proficient in inducing OBEs and
possessed paranormal perceptual abilities during OBEs, were
tested under controlled conditions. While confined to one room,
the subjects induced OBEs and "visited" a distant target room,
attempting afterward to describe in detail what they had "seen"
while there. A comparison of their reports with the actual
contents of the target room revealed, in all but a few cases,
absolutely no indication of any correspondence whatsoever. In
other words, in the great majority of these cases, there was no
evidence supporting acurate OBE perception or the validity of
the subjects' convictions that they had actually left their bodies.
Moreover, these subjects were described by Osis as being "the
creme of the claimants" of OBEs. I believe the results of this
study strongly support my "OBE as misinterpreted lucid dream"
theory."

From: Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D., _Lucid_Dreaming_, Ballantine, 1985.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Excerpt from Babaji - The Divine Himalayan Yogi
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:32:10 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Nov4.192456.6799@nrtpa038.bnr.ca>, Tarzan writes:
> 
> Ahem,  or should I say IMHO,  if I may try to offer some of the realizations
> that I have had maybe I can help bring some understanding as to why this
> particular post does fit into the OOB group.  First of all to bring the first
> quote down;
> 
> 
> >*******realizing the perfect state of pure Consciousness*******.
> 

This was regarding the post on Babaji. I read a number of newsgroups
that it is 'relevant' to, so I have seen it many times now. I think if
someone wants to read about such things it would be more appropriate
to go read soc.religion.eastern, or talk.religion.newage. 

It appears to me that the purpose of this group is the discussion of
experiences and techniques of oob experiences. The post you refer to,
on the other hand, was more of a religious commercial. I do agree that
spiritual and consciousness issues, and out-of-body are related. But
it seems that if you start broadening the scope of discussion to the
point of including material like that as relevant, you wash out the
initial purpose of having this newsgroup, as opposed to just bringing
it up on, say, alt.magick, or talk.religion.newage.

I like the idea of having a focused newsgroup that doesn't run off to
far distant tangents. 
Now, if you want to talk about what various spiritual traditions have
to say about direct experiences someone is curious about here, I think
then that it is germaine.

		-Lorenzo

P.S. Before you get defensive about this, I just wanted to play
devil's advocate a bit.
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Silver cord
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:07:29 GMT

In article <hawleylm-111192170558@hawley.apple.com>, hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley) writes in part:
|> 
|> The people I was referring to include Raymond Moody and Melvin Morse, who
|> are M.D.'s, and Kenneth Ring, a PhD psychologist. Then there's also
|> Kubler-Ross. Not that their degrees necessarily correlate to better
|> empirical methods and objectivity than Blackmore, a very respected
|> scientist. Moody and Morse (and Kubler-Ross), drawing from their
|> experiences interviewing NDE survivors, have been swayed to the belief that
|> there is a "something" that leaves the body and survives physical death. 

A very nice phrasing.  They have been "swayed to the belief".  This
is not a "scientific" position.  It is perfectly reasonable for
"scientists" to have and express convictions, but their convictions
are no more "valid" than anyone else's unless it is backed by 
"scientific" argument.

Psychologists are well aware of the pitfalls of anecdotal evidence, 
no matter how massive.  There are lots of methodological problems with 
the work of these folks, including, unfortunately, possible problems of 
'leading the witness' to agree with the beliefs of the researchers.
Thus, this body of "testimony" must be treated with extreme caution,
and one may reserve judgement on claims made about it.

|> Even if
|> these experiences are ultimately explanable by currently understood
|> physiological processes, it would certainly be of scientific interest to
|> understand those mechanisms!

Of course it is, and I never said it wasn't.  The case is still open,
but I still maintain that a careful examine of the evidence will lead
to the conclusion that there is little or no evidence that anything
leaves the body during an NDE.  Even if this is true, NDEs are still
very interesting.  In fact, they are even MORE difficult to explain
if nothing leaves the body, which makes them REALLY interesting.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: Tarzan
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there?
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:40:35 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research

In article <1992Nov5.182847.17960@gnosys.svle.ma.us> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
(Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
>[ Apologies to readers of alt.out-of-body, but our 'TARZAN' does not have an
>  email address shown in the RFC 1036 headers of his articles.  Sigh. ]
>
>In <1992Nov4.205845.7429@nrtpa038.bnr.ca> Tarzan writes:
>
>[ Big hairy graphic deleted. ]
>
>> Nice Drawing.                            Tarzan
>
>Dear Tarzan,
>
>Would you PLEASE:
>
>    1. Stop quoting the entire message you're responding to,
>       especially when you only want to post a one line response
>       (and I think it would be best if you could resist the
>       temptation to avoid responses like this one that have
>       nothing to do with the subject matter of the newsgroup,
>       since I and I'm sure many others find them distracting).
>and
>    2. Do your best to figure out an electronic mail address for
>       yourself and find out how to use email so that people can
>       communicate with you privately.  You'll really need to do
>       so anyway in order to be of any use on the FAQ project.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Gary
>--
>    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
>Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
>


Gary, gary, gary.    Loosen up.   Thanks for the E-mail advice and personnally
I get a lot out of reading personal responses to questions posted in the group.
 All Eyes Can See!  I have no need to be re-butted personally through E-mail. 
Nor do I wish it.  And as to the pre-previous post;  the person wanted to know
if they were getting through to anybody.  I replied.  Gary, gary, gary.  

						Yours truly,     Tarzan
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: message to "TARZAN"
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:53:00 GMT

Our "TARZAN" writes:

> Gary, gary, gary.  Loosen up.  Thanks for the E-mail advice...

You're welcome.  I hope you'll take it.  I've written to your system
administrator in hope that s/he can help you determine your email
address and learn how to use email.

> ...I have no need to be re-butted personally through E-mail. Nor do I wish it.

There are other reasons for wanting your address.  You had indicated an
interest in working on the FAQ.  To be able to use your help, we will
need your address.

Thanks for anything you can do at your end.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: lionhart@netlink.cts.com (Jackie Zucconi)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Does this happen to you?
Date: 9 Nov 92 06:24:39 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

This type of situation has happened to me, not just when I watch 
television but when I stare at any object in a semi dark room. I've also 
noticed that when this happens my blinking reflex stops...Being a contact 
lens wearer the lack of blinking regularly is noticable and interesting.
What about the rest of you?
                           Lionheart

--                    
INTERNET:  lionhart@netlink.cts.com (Jackie Zucconi)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!lionhart
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: message...
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:53:42 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

This is to give another perspective on OOBE's, in the light of the
debate of what is valid to posit and discuss.

That there is something happening, there is no doubt. And both sides
of the debate agree on this. 

IMHO, you cannot divorce oobe's from paranormal events. Based on the
many anecdotes I have heard and read about oobe's and paranormal
events, and my own experiences, they very often go hand in hand. And
if you are really going out of body, how much more paranormal can you
really get.

I think one possibility of what is happening is literally
none-of-the-above. Typically, people seem to be able to change the
parameters of their experience, and induce the sort of experience they
want, to some degree, with a little practice, through the use of
visualization and will. The same seems to hold true for certain forms
of meditative, shamanistic, and ritual magick practice. I think what
is most likely happening is that, in that we are primarily bound to
our physical experience, we create a mental metaphor for what is
really happening. Hence, the experience of an awareness not localized
to the physical body is sometimes experienced as being out-of-body.
It seems like we need to apply some familiar physical metaphor to all
our experiences, to bring them down to a size our reason can
encompass. 

I think the point I am trying to make here is that the whole question
of whether something is leaving the body may be in fact moot, as at
that level of awareness it perhaps doesn't even really make sense to
talk about in-body or out-of-body.

			Yours in speculative theorizing,
				Lorenzo
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: FAQ volunteers needed
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:38:03 GMT
Expires: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:00:00 GMT

This article announces a new mailing list for the purpose of coordinating
the FAQ list.  Anyone who would like to help with this FAQ (frequently-asked
questions) list can get in touch with me to have your name added to the list
and to be given instructions on how to post articles to it.

In <92310.184232SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu> Senthil Ramas Kumar
	<SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

> Hi pple, I would like to help with the FAQ.  I have the time and the
> interest, and really wish that this newsgroup would establish itself on a
> solid basis...

As would I.  I think this is potentially a very important topic, and our
ability to investigate it as a world community on a real-time basis is a
first in history.  Having relegated those societies in which these kinds
of things may have been (and may still be) a regular part of life, and an
important one at that, to a marginalized status, we have to try to piece
together what we can using our own experience and what little has been
written about the subject.

I have established the FAQ mailing list for those who want to work on the
FAQ, and have added the names of those who have posted articles on the
subject or who have gotten in touch with me personally to volunteer.  I
have sent out a message to the new list as a test.  If you *do not* receive
this test message and want to volunteer, please drop me a note *as soon as
possible*.  For those who join later, I plan to make available a facility
that will permit them to retrieve previously-posted articles from the
archive of that discussion I will maintain.  I'll send instructions on using
that facility when new volunteers emerge.  However, I suppose it's probably
best to not have too many people working on the project, on the theory that
"too many cooks spoil the soup," so I encourage anyone who is interested to
get in "on the ground floor" if possible.

However, recognizing that some people who really feel they have something
important to contribute may come along later, and that some who are active
now may not be able to stay with the project over the long term, I would
like to encourage anyone who reads this article later on and who wants to
help out to contact me.  I will give this article a long expiration time
in order that it stays around in the news spool queues for a while.

Thanks again to everyone who has already volunteered for the OBE FAQ project,
and to those who would like to join us in putting this document together and
maintaining it over the long haul.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: dcs.qmw.ac.uk!mel
Subject: Reading List
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:01:15 GMT

Original-Sender: dcs.qmw.ac.uk!mel

Does anyone know of any research papers in the area of OBEs?
I started having such experiences several years ago, and read many
the "popular" books, but haven't come across any papers in refereed
journals.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: How To?
Date: 13 Nov 92 10:29:54 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Nov12.235223.6659@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, Dr.Death@kip-sn-73.dartmouth.edu (Dr. Death) writes:
>   Most of the books I've seen are oriented to women. Does this mean that
> OBE's are sex related? Are they only for women?

What books are those? Based on the postings I have seen to this group,
there is no gender bias in obe's. If anything, men are making the most
noise about it here.
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Silver cord
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:10:27 GMT

In article <hawleylm-101192161624@hawley.apple.com>, hawleylm@apple.com (Lorin Hawley) writes in part:
|> 
|> Susan Blackmore is also one of the more outspoken proponents of the view
|> that 
|> oobe's result from events in brain physiology, i.e. aberrations in the
|> functioning of the visual cortex and in memory. Despite her own oobe, she 
|> has written a number of papers against the "parapsychological" view, i.e.,
|> against the view that "something" leaves the body. Not being that
|> knowledgeable about brain physiology I can't really evaluate her arguments.
|> There are a number of medically-trained near-death-experience researchers
|> who still hold that "something" leaves the body and, in the case of
|> near-death-experiences, has an existence independent of the physical body.
|> 
|> Anyone care to comment?
|> 
|> - Lorin Hawley

Blackmore is one of the few people that has systemaically examined the
evidence about OBEs and has concluded that there is no evidence that
anything leaves the body during an OBE.  I believe that she would
also conclude that there is no evidence that ESP occurs during OBEs,
that is, there is no evidence that distant events are percieved.
(There are also very difficult logical problems in "astral
body" theories, which SB has considered in detail.)

She is a well trained and careful investigator, and leans to a
psychological and physiological explanation of OBEs.  She has
done some interesting research that offers support for the view
that OBEs are produced by unusual behavior of normal psychological
functions.

See "Beyond the Body," by Susan Blackmore, Chicago Academy Press,
Chicago, 1992, for SB's views.  In my opinion, one should pay
careful attention to anything SB says.

It is far from clear that NDEs are related to OBEs, but they may be.
I'm not aware of any good evidence that anything leaves the body during 
an NDE, so the "medically-trained" researchers' beliefs are basically
weakly supported hypotheses.  Since there is no adequate physiological
explanantion for NDEs, the question must remain open.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath,  founder, president and only member of 
     The Central Illinois Susan Blackmore Fan Club
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: math.concord.wvnet.edu!JONESCL
Subject: help
Organization: Math Department, Concord College
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:55:02 GMT

Original-Sender: math.concord.wvnet.edu!JONESCL

LIONEL HAS TOLD ME IT IS POSSIBLE THROUGH HYPNOSIS.  ANYONE KNOW HOW
TO GET THE SUBJECT TO DO IT AFTER YOU GET THEM UNDER?  ANY
SUGGESTIONS?
                    THANKS
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: kaminl@rpi.edu (Matt Garretson)
Subject: Re: Does this happen to you?
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:06:03 GMT

In article <sZkyTB10w165w@netlink.cts.com> lionhart@netlink.cts.com (Jackie Zucconi) writes:
>noticed that when this happens my blinking reflex stops...Being a contact 
>lens wearer the lack of blinking regularly is noticable and interesting.

Yes, I've noticed this too. Someone suggested that I try an exercise in
which I stare into a mirror at my "third eye". I have trouble doing this
because my contacts make me blink often, breaking my concentration. But
when I get entranced by the TV as I described in my original post, I
don't blink for several minutes. Strange.
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Is there anybody out there?
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:28:47 GMT

[ Apologies to readers of alt.out-of-body, but our 'TARZAN' does not have an
  email address shown in the RFC 1036 headers of his articles.  Sigh. ]

In <1992Nov4.205845.7429@nrtpa038.bnr.ca> Tarzan writes:

[ Big hairy graphic deleted. ]

> Nice Drawing.                            Tarzan

Dear Tarzan,

Would you PLEASE:

    1. Stop quoting the entire message you're responding to,
       especially when you only want to post a one line response
       (and I think it would be best if you could resist the
       temptation to avoid responses like this one that have
       nothing to do with the subject matter of the newsgroup,
       since I and I'm sure many others find them distracting).
and
    2. Do your best to figure out an electronic mail address for
       yourself and find out how to use email so that people can
       communicate with you privately.  You'll really need to do
       so anyway in order to be of any use on the FAQ project.

Thanks!

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: "something" leaving the body (was Re: message...)
Date: 13 Nov 92 09:53:09 GMT

In <Nov.12.09.53.42.1992.22590@ruhets.rutgers.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu
	(Lorenzo Farris) writes:

> That there is something happening, there is no doubt. And both sides
> of the debate agree on this...

> I think the point I am trying to make here is that the whole question
> of whether something is leaving the body may be in fact moot, as at
> that level of awareness it perhaps doesn't even really make sense to
> talk about in-body or out-of-body.

YES!!  This is a point I attempted to make (probably not succeeding very
well) in a recent posting.  I don't really care to debate the question of
whether "something" leaves the body, since I don't know enough about the
physical (or non-physical) structure of the Universe to speak meaningfully
about the subject, and it's not really important for the kinds of investi-
gations I most want to do, which are more personally experiential in nature.

I hope we can avoid getting drawn into a purely analytical debate, such as
the ones I've gotten sucked into recently.  For my own part, I've resolved
not to take part in any major way in those discussions that don't somehow
relate to a personal curiosity having to do with wanting to use the exper-
ience or the fact of people being able to have such experiences as a means
of greater self-understanding.

I'd like to encourage more anecdotal accounts, and speculations from those
who have had the experience as to what it's all about for you.

Thanks.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: nc313060@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Help me I am in hell.....
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:13:54 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

This may sound stupid, but whenever I manage to get out of this mound of 
flesh that humans have deemed "a body", I end up back in before I can 
explore. Also, when it happens, I do it by accident - usually when I am
very tired. The last time I did in, I started to float up, so I kept
"grabbing" onto things around me to keep me near the floor. Just then, my 
mom walked past me and went into the bathroom. I don't know what happened
next, but when I sat up in bed, I heard the toilet flush, and heard my mom
headed back to her room.

Astral Projection makes you feel so free. It's like you don't have a problem in
the world.

I need to learn how to do it, so when I would like to, it won't be such a 
chore. Can anyone help me?

Electronic mail would be appreciated.

Thanx,
Stephani Nichelle

"....Hats, lots and lots of hats....."
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body