HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 08:55:10 GMT

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
: 
: > >sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock) writes:
: > >: > : The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
: > >: > : practices is "Warlock".  The more gender nuetral term would be
: > 
: > Actually this isn't true.  (I know, I know, .... flame away)
: > 
: > I don't remember the word that it comes from, but the original latin that
: > the word "Warlock" comes from means "betrayer".  A warlock is someone in
: > the occult that betrayes his/her own.
: > 
: > The reason I know this is because one of my teachers was accused of being
: > a warlock.  It was a vast misunderstanding, but then again emotions were
: > running high.
: 
: not sure of my spelling, but the word was Norse, not Latin, and the word 
: is hvaardlocke or something like that. It originally described a special 
: kind of priest or holy man that dressed in womens clothing. This was part 
: of their magic, stealing the womens mysteries. The term was applied to 
: the male witch in much the same context, a man in a role considered 
: feminine.

I am redoing this post - with my name removed from the attributions. I did
not write ANY of the above. I think I got the rest right.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:13:33 GMT

lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

>In article <C07KIM.LwE@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes...
>> 
>>George Papp makes some interesting comments about oral tradition and evidence.
>> 
>>I, personally, am perfectly willing to accept oral tradition from someone who
>>doesn't seem to be working straight out of Gardner's BoS.  However, both 
>>Fam-Trads I know are incredibly unlike modern Wicca.  (They are also incredibly
>>unlike each other, as the two people who I know, and who know each other, will
>>agree.)  One is a tradition of some simple folk magic and some talents for 
>>Healing.  The other is more a tradition of mysticism than magic, though every
>>generation has had its share of magical practitioners.  *Neither* of them are
>>religions, and both are unwritten.  I acknowledge that this sort of Fam-Trad
>>exists, but I've seen no evidence of Wicca, or an ancestor religion of Wicca,
>>existing before Gardner.  If anyone has some, I'd love to hear more about it.
>> 

>I started not to reply to this thread and I did say that I wouldn't, but I
>noticed something earlier and my big mouth just won't let me stay shut up..:)

>The way it seems to be comming out is that only Gardenarian Wicca is 
>"Witchcraft" and only it is a witch religion.  Fam Trads are not because of
>the fact that they are not Gardenerian, but only folk magic.  Therefore
>you have no documented evidence of Wicca existing before Gardener.

>Does everyone else see the circle that I do?

Well, I certainly am NOT Gardnerian, but it is the oldest source I can trace.
Because of that seniority, I refer back to it a lot.  As for the distinction
between folk-magic and religion, I do think that it is meaningful.  I am
responding to people's claims that there has been a structured initiatory
religion kept hidden during the Burning Times.  What my two Fam-Trad friends
have inherited is neither initiatory, or a religion.  Neither one is ritual
based.  If I can find anything that isn't obviously Gardnerian that is a
religion, I will be thrilled.  Does this still seem to be a circle?

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Holly and the Ivy, and other Yule songs
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:38:26 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <1992Dec23.140710.9752@ac.dal.ca> jblain@ac.dal.ca writes:
>Yule greetings --
>
>A number of us were trying to sing at the solstice. We wanted to sing "The 
>Holly and the Ivy" but found that nobody knew the words! I know six lines
>but after that i only know the Xtian version which was drilled into me
>in school (and which always seemed to be not quite right . . .)
>
>Help please! Can anyone forward me the words?
>
>I'd also be interested in "The Holly King" and "Lord of the Dance" --
>and anything else you see fit to send along!
>
>Thanks in anticipation!
>Yule blessings -- 
>
>	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
>
Yes, please post, anyone who has them!  Or, even if you know of new
words to them...  I've been stuck on the refrain of "Lord of the Dance"
for a month now, and basically, changing the X-tian words as I go along
the other songs.  Then again, I should be able to sing them without too
much trouble, because it's just one myth among many...  I wouldn't have any
problem singing songs from other religions (such as a song about Isis &
Osiris, or Channukah songs, or a song I sang once in a choir that was from
the Rig Veda), so why should I have a problem with the X-tian ones?

Nonetheless, I'd still like to know more pagan solstice songs and/or
the pagan versions of the ones that got X-tianized...

Blessings!
Angela

-- 
**************************  angelai@wam.umd.edu  ****************************
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 10:01:24 GMT

bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White ) writes:

>Let's assume you're accelerating at 8000 meters/second, which is easily
>within range of railguns.  This takes, of course, 1 second to get up to
>speed; in that second we travel 8000 meters (simply enough).  Now this is

8000 meters/second is NOT an acceleration.  It is a speed.  This is not a
nitpick-- someone who does not understand the meaning of the terms 
"acceleration", "velocity", and "speed" is not qualified to talk about
the feasablility of  various launch techniques.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mlr21@cas.org (Mary Lee)
Subject: Re: The meaning of Pagan
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:15:31 GMT

In article <29DEC199200262402@jane.uh.edu>, lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec28.235958.3326@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes...
|> 
|> ..discussion of meaning of paganism deleted....
|> 
|> > 
|> >This is, in my mind, a convienient 
|> >compromise; otherwise, we'd have to 
|> >call this 
|> >
|> >alt.wicca.druids.asatru.women's-spirituality.Gaia-Theorists.Faerie-
|> Spirituality.Taoism.Hinduism.Lamaism.Shinto.Shamanism.Native- 
|> Spirituality.New-Age.magic.magick.magik.ritual-magic.natural-magic.
|> Ceremonial-magic.etc-etc-etc
|> 
|> BRAVO!
|> 
|> Tell you what, all those who don't like the term pagan as a non-christian
|> can go to the above group and gripe about pedantic points of words
|> already defined.
|> 
|> 
|> Tammy 
|> 

Speaking of meanings of words, I hope this is the right place to ask
the following questions (bear with me, much descriptive text before
the actual questions follows):

During a recent episode of Northern Exposure, Joel (who is Jewish)
gets his first xmas tree after talking to Ed and Dave.  Ed kind of
talks Joel into getting a tree.  Joel protests that he's Jewish,
not Christian.  Dave (or Ed) says not to worry, Dave has a tree,
and he's not a Christian, he's an animist.

Joel goes to the local store and asks to buy ornaments for the tree.
Unsure what to get, he asks Ruth Anne (the proprietor) what she
puts on her tree.  Ruth Anne says she doesn't put up a tree because
she doesn't believe in cutting them down and then letting them get
all brown and die.  "Besides," she says, "I'm an atheist."

Joel smiles, and replies that he is impressed because he's always
thought that it "must take a lot of faith, er, conviction, 
not to believe in a supreme being."

To which Ruth Anne replies, "Oh, I believe in a supreme being, all right.
It's just that she doesn't take human form."

Okay, now for my questions regarding definitions:

I had assumed (like Joel) that an atheist did not believe in a supreme
being or perhaps that an atheist did not believe in any deity.  
However, after looking the word "atheist" up in three dictionaries,
I get varying definitions, and it appears that "atheist" may be limited
to "one who doesn't believe in the Judaeo-Christian God".

Given that as a definition, is an animist an atheist?
Is a pantheist an atheist?
Can one be both a theist and an atheist as long as one doesn't believe
in Yahweh?

Anyway, I don't mean to start a long-winded argument, debate, etc., I'm
just interested in the meanings of words.

Thanks

Mary Lee
From: hz225wu@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Micaela Pantke)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Making contact via Circles - Was: A Darkover type circle
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Date: 29 Dec 1992 10:24:49 +0100
Organization: University of Duisburg
Reply-To: hz225wu@unidui.UUCP (Micaela "Stayka" Pantke)
NNTP-Posting-Host: unidui.uni-duisburg.de
Keywords: Circles, Contact over far distances

Hello Corun - Stayka is here!

Again apologies for answering via Internet... 

First: Is there anybody out there who already has tried to make a
contact of minds over a BIG distance?! I know there should be no more
problems than contacting someone in the next room, but I don't think
it's too easy to convince oneself of the fact...

The other problem (quite correctly stated from you, Corun) is the 
fact that there are at least nine hours difference between Germany 
and whichever timezone in the USA you're living in (I must admit 
utter ignorance...  Germany is one hour behind (east) of Greenwich 
Mean Time.)

I think it could be a problem because of the different 'energy levels'
in the atmosphere.  When it's night there are few energetic disturbances
(at least it's how *I* perceive it) than during the daytime. 

Help of others who have experiences in this matter would be graciously
accepted.

The next problem is - when you haven't had contact before (either on the
spiritual or physical plane) there could be the difficulty of 'finding'
the person in question... 

Considering that, I would say a photo as focus could work even better
than a rough description of the exterior appearance (my snail mail
address is always at the end of every of my postings...) Which leads me
to the further question, if the photo also describes the image someone
has of hirself in hir mind?!  I suppose not.  If a drawing or painting
of the 'mind-image' might help? 

By the way... Maybe one could try to exchange a tuned crystal as focus?! 

Any input from others recommended!


Adelandeyo -- and Avarra bless you!
                                     Stayka deyAvemta

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Micaela "Stayka" Pantke  | "Long roads test the horse
Westhoffstrasse 111      |  long dealings test the friend"
W-4200 Oberhausen 11     |  (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
Germany                  | 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: 3 Jan 93 04:14:09 GMT
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <2B46509C.11023@news.service.uci.edu>,
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan2.072222.6330@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
|> >alizard@pil writes:
|> >: 
|> >: If these alleged rocket scientists have NUMBERS that demostrate
that scaling
|> >: railguns up to the 1 metric ton range with output velocities in
the 5
|> >: mi/second range are impossible,
|> >
|> >There would be little problem, in space. It cannot be done here on
Earth,
|> >due to atmospheric drag.
|> 
|> Uh -- how do you keep the launching station from soaking up momentum
by
|> shooting off in the opposite direction?  You'd have to build a
PRETTY
|> BIG FUCKING STATION.
|> 
|> Blessings,
|> Janis 

Well, if you are launching from an asteroid or the moon, you
automatically
have a fucking big station.  If you are launching from a man-made
station, 
you could simply have two guns and fire them in opposite directions to
cancel
out the effect.

Another possible way of way of shooting objects into space is to use a
gas-gun.
It's a piece of SDI technology that is just recently being declassified.
In a
gas-gun a large chamber is filled with explosive gases and ingnited. 
The 
expanding gas is funneled into a constricting tube which increases the
pressure
of the explosion.  At the end of the tube you have the payload which is
shot
into space by the expanding gas.  This technique holds a lot of
promise.

					Paul Wayner
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Yule experience
From: lares@gumby.mgi.com
Date: 28 Dec 92 17:18:51 CST
Organization: Management Graphics, Inc.

	I was wondering what kind of Yule experiences some other alt.pagan
	people had? I would also like to share my experience it was very
	cool.
		The group I met with is not "my circle" as I am a 
	        solitary practitioner. We started the evening very
		informally talking,eating, drinking tea ect... before
		we started a woman slipped out back and rattled around
		the house ( a planned surprise for me) and came to the 
		door dressed as the winter goddess or crane. She came in 
		heavely burdened with child. ( the to be born god) We
		welcomed her(winter) in. She told of the old traditions
		of preparing for winter and of the new hope of life
		spring would bring. Then she proceeded to have the 
		new child (which were gifts we had all brought that
		were supposed to be symbols of winter to each of us).

		After enjoying this bit of acting and mood setting we
		drew quarters. The quarters and words that represent 
		alot of there meanings ie...south,fire....were spoken in 
		gailec. I had no clue to the words were but somehow it fit.
		

		During the ritual another interesting twist was added.
		each "regular" member of this circle brought a different
		herb. Each spoke of the properties of the herb and why 
		they had decieded to bring it. Then it was mixed into 
		hot water which was on the alter to make a group tea.
		It actually tasted pretty good considering the different
		types of herbs that could have ended up in it.  

		Upon closing the circle we all talked more and really 
		felt close and tuned to each other. I was surprised 
		at this because I do not belong to this circle. Although
		the members are all friends. This is one the most 
		casual yet bonding to god/goddess experiences I have 
		had with a group.

		
		Well I just had to share this with all of you who 
		I read regularly. Please feel free to share your 
		Yule experience with me. I know I'm posting late
		but I have been on vacation.
		
		hope you all had as fun a yule as I.

			_Rob
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 18:21:06 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <Z1TiwB4w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
>markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>
>> In article <Po5awB2w165w@freeside.com> popec@freeside.com (PopeC) writes:
>> <MUNCH!>
>> >Call it the 'Solstice' and be done with it.  Actually I have seen 
>> >Solctice used more and more.  I have even heard rumors of Solstice Cards 
>> >being available here and there.  This term is more accurate, anyway, of 
>> 
>> Here & there? Rumors? I send mine out every year; this year, it was even
>> printed on the front of the card, along with the design (ok, ok, so I
>> did the linoleum block myself; you could, too, if you wanted, or design
>> them on your machine, print them out & copy them; why put up with the
>> garbage on commercial cards?).
>> 
>Well, yes..   But what I really had in mind when I posted that was that 
>it was not just an 'inside' thing that people in a little clique did, but 
>that "Solstice" seems to becoming used by members of the general public.
>  I really would like to see Solstice cards available on the Hallmark(tm) 
>racks with the Xmas, (secular), Xmas, (religous), and Hanakhah cards.

Umm, not sure that would be an improvement, but I suppose....

>I hope we have a new way of seeing things here in good ol' Amurrica, and 
>that it isn't just a fad.
>
>Solstice lives, Xmas sucks.  (My own personal opinion).

No, no nO, you're supposed to *hang* the Xmas socks over the fireplace:
a) it allows the aroma to escape up the chimney, and so keeps the Wild
Hunt from your door, and b) lets the person who *cares* for you show their
care by braving said aroma & putting stuff in aforementioned sucks...(B-)}

	mark
>
>Happy new year ever'one.  
>
	and from me
From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why the Cross?
Date: 1 Jan 93 04:03:15 GMT
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia


 >> In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
|> >>  bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
|> >> >In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
|> >>  lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
|> >> >>
|> >> >>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
|> >> >>today.
|> >> >
|> >> >Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad
one might
|> >> >be amusing.  :-)

Well, one possible explanation is that most (if not all) of the original
apostles
were fishermen, and Jesus said to them (paraphrasing)
	
	Follow me and I shall make you fishers of men's souls

						Paul Wayner
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: CUUP
Date: 1 Jan 1993 04:34:21 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: phylo.genetics.washington.edu

knighton@world.std.com (Gwen Knighton) writes:

>I'm interested in finding out more about the Circle of Unitarian Universalist
>Pagans. Any information would be appreciated.

>Gwen Knighton          knighton@world.std.com         (harpist for hire)

CUUPs (Covenant of Unitarian Univeralist Pagans) is a loose affiliation 
of Wiccan and other pagan groups within the UU church.  There is a national
organization which publishes a (theoretically quarterly) newsletter, and
individual chapters associated with various UU congregations.  (There
are other congregations who will pretend they've never heard of CUUPs...
UU churches vary a good deal.)

The chapters I know of firsthand function as open worship circles,
sponsoring public full moon and Sabbat rituals, plus some workshops and
discussion groups.  The chapter I belong to also gives one church
service per year at the UU church (at Lammas).  Our 'tradition' is an
eclectic Wicca with borrowings from everything that doesn't run away
quickly enough.

CUUPs doesn't require that you be UU, only that you be able to get along
with Unitarians (only a problem if organized religion of any kind gives
you the heebie-jeebies).  It's a good place for a newcomer to get a
taste of the Craft and meet people in the pagan community.

Contact address for National CUUPs:

CUUPs
PO Box 640
Cambridge, MA 02140

Hope this helps!
Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
From: ailsa@wonky.UUCP (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: anyone going to Arisia?
Date: 31 Dec 92 05:51:51 GMT

In article <ljuga7INN9g2@news.bbn.com>, dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>
> Is anyone going to be at Arisia (a Boston area con Jan 15-17)?  If so,
> can we manage some kind of get together or lunch or something?  Seems
> like there's a lot of Boston area folks on the newsgroup lately.
>
well, we decided that we WON'T be going to arisia *sigh*  it's too pricey,
and i need what little money i have for &^%^%$#^&&%$#$@^%*^&T&*(*&%^&%$*(&
INTERVIEW clothes *huge exasperated sigh*  being a grownup is definitely
a bitch at times.  BUT - we ARE going to be at the Man Ray fantasy night
that friday night, so if anyone was happening over there, you might find
us.  keep your eyes out for a tall darkharied man in a grey collar.  he's
easier to spot that i am...  of course, the orange leash helps *evil grin*
i'll be at the other end of same.

                                                -ailsa
                                                 hoping to see y'all
                                                 there!  B)
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Great Debate (was Space, the Final Frontier)
Date: 22 Dec 1992 18:59:57 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com
Keywords: flames, space, recycling

In article <1992Dec18.184432.7778@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>Janis, ALizard, & supporters on both sides:
>
>   Why is this flamewar going on? Could y'all answer the following questions,
>*please*?
>
>	1) Is this an argument+ to try to convince the other side that
>		we need to recycle?  Is *anyone* actually arguing that 
>		we don't need to recycle?

	No. This is more a discussion on the methods employed and whether
	they are cost effective form a cash and environment p.o.v. Nobody
	is arguing about the need to recycle. In fact, it's the one thing
	we seem to be agreeing on. There is also a sideline debate on the
	polite way to educate someone you think needs education. ;-)

>	2) Is this an argument inteded to convince those of us that have 
>		dreamed, our whole lives, of going into space, to give
>		up our dreams, that have given some of the meaning to
>		our lives?

	From the p.o.v. of some, yes, or at least that it's infeasible for
	the moment. It's certainly been said that we shouldn't be looking
	for someone (or thing) to reach down and give us a magic wand that,
	when properly waved, will cure all our woes and elevate us magically
	to the next level of consciousness. I secretly believe that even
	the detracters of the move to space have a deep seated urge to be
	out among the stars themselves, but then I'm saving my pennies for
	a week's vacation in Huntsville, AL, knowing that's the closest that
	*I'll* ever get to space. ;-)

>	3) Is the anti-space (if I may label it that, for convenience)
>		side that we should wait until this world is perfect
>		before we go into space? Is that reasonable in the 
>		real world, or is it just a polite way to say "never"?

	This is what actually started things, the pros and cons of furthering
	our space program. Some of us are against it, some of us are for it,
	and some of us want to see a happy medium between going into space,
	and staying here to clean up our home. The main concern seems to be
	centered on cleaning the home, since it's a sure bet that if we don't,
	and we *do* manage to make it to space, we'll have only succeeded in
	proving Hemingway right, and we won't be *able* to go home again.


>+ argument: "A series of statements intended to prove a proposition",
>		Monty Python Dictionary Definition

"No it isn't." "Yes it is." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "Look, I came here
for a good argument." "No you didn't, you came here for an *argument*."


Bb,
Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |    My opinions *are* those of my boss, because
  Dark Horde by birth  |   he is me, and I am he, and we are all together.
    Moritu by choice   |                 Coo coo cachoob.