From: kriz@skat.usc.edu (KRIZ)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Cath. Christianity 101 - comments about JP II's "On the Family"
Date: 21 Jul 1992 19:29:57 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu


With regards to some of the comments concerning my recent posting
of JP II's apostolic exhortation "On the Family".

Loren: asking sarcastically if there is "anything non-trivial" in the 
       document

DK response: probably bulk of the readership has never seen anything
	like this document -- on family values.

Paul Maloney: asking, what's "new about it"

DK response: that wasn't my point.  My point was simply, that most
	people are never exposed to a coherent presentation of 
	"traditional family values."  Our society does feel an
	anxiety, that "traditional family values" are seemingly
	falling apart.  And yet, it has made itself virtually	
	incapable of discussing let alone teaching them coherently.

	This document, like virtually nothing else like it, defines
	what this term means.  One can reject it ... but one should
	be happy that it exists ... because without a coherent
	presentation of model of what a family is supposed to be,
	its impossible to discuss deviating from it or not.

	One of the true strengths of the Catholic Church is that it
	can produce such documents.

	Again, I think the document could be extremely useful, for
	Christians and non.  Without something like this, we simply
	can't as a society even discuss the issue coherently.

Loren: It's too long.

DK response:  Not really.  It's about 80 pages total.  If one is
	serious about discussing such issues, one should be willing
	to read something of such length.  But then, most of what
	passes for "discussion" on t.r.m. would be denounced elsewhere
	as "soundbites" and "one-liners"

	I honestly am hoping to over-time raise the level of discussion
	on this group.

Loren: These teachings have "nothing to do with the Bible"

DK response:  Look at the footnoting of the documents I post.  
	Again one plus of Catholic teaching is that it builds on
	itself, so one does not constantly rebuild the wheel.

	Sometimes I think that rabid foaming at the mouth atheists
	practically need the strawman of "Bible only" Christians in 
	order to bash.

	The Bible is referenced nearly 200 times in the Vatican II
	document Lumen Gentium, which serves as the Council's 
	Constitution on the Church.  This is the foundational document
	of practically everything else that follows.

	The other widely quoted Vatican II document in the Church
	documents that have followed is Gaudium et Spes, the Council's
	Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.  Where
	does it begin, with the defending the dignity of the human person.
	Because God created man, male and female in his image [Gen. 1:28].
	The Church defends its second proposition of the vision of the
	"Community of Mankind" on basis of the Jesus prayer "that they 
	may be one" (Jn. 17:21).

	As for the specific issues addressed by the recent documents
	that I have posted: the U.S. bishops' letter "Economic Justice
	for All" and JP II's apost. exhort. "On the Family" --

	Issues of justice have been considered relevant by the Biblical
	authors/editors since the time Cain and Abel (Am I my brother's
	keeper?" (Gn. 4:9) [the answer was yes]).  As for marriage, as
	both the OT and NT are loaded with references to marriage, and
	most significantly the very covenant relationships between God
	and the Hebrews and Christ and the Church were understood by
	both the OT and NT Biblical authors with the language of
	marriage (On the Family, Part II, paragraphs 12,13 and the
	relavent biblical footnotes referenced therein).  Both subjects
	are **clearly** within the legimate sphere of the Church.

	While it may be a "good try" to try pit the Catholic against 
	the "Bible only" Christian ... it would behoove *everyone* 
	concerned to read the documents ... before resorting to 
	blind emotional unknowing bigotry.

	I can't stop anyone from resorting to that.  But I can post
	the relavent Church teachings AS THEY ARE, **NOT** as someone
	says they are, and educate everyone in the process.

Loren: What do "aged celibate males" know about "family values" anyway?

DK response:
	Well they **HAVE** families.  They weren't "hatched"  They have
	mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, relatives, and friends of
	all thereof.  They marry off thousands of couples in a lifetime.
	In non-disfunctional societies they have intimate contact with
	thousands families in their parishes.  Further, they are learned
	in a church tradition/teaching that has *worked* for nearly 2000
	years.  Whatever changes or refinements are needed on occasion 
	are frankly small ... not justifying the wholesale amnesia that
	really is being forced on our society by rendering our society
	unable to teach the values it needs to know in order to survive.

Anyway...

dennis
kriz@skat.usc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc