From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: military occupation
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:40:03 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Dec17.1777.21187@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> To: Josh Backon
>
> First things first: did you receive my message in which I
> requested you to post the precise words in which Avraham Burg
> retracted his comparison of Israeli to German racism? I would
> really like to see the quote, if you can find it. It would also
> serve as a useful correction to the clip I posted here.

Unfortunately, I missed your posting. However, Burg's retraction was on radio,
TV and in all the papers. I'm sure with a little legwork you'll find the quote
from the Jerusalem Post.




>
> With regard to your quibbling about the details of the Defense
> Emergency Regulations: I really think you are failing to see the
> forest for the trees. The details in 1992 may vary somewhat from
> those presented Schoenman's book in 1988, but the overall picture
> is quite clear: the human and civil rights of the Palestinians in
> the occupied territories are being massively violated by Israel.

Massively violated ??  Wayne, order your plane tickets for a REAL fact-finding
mission to Israel. No holds bared. The raw, naked truth. You'll be pleasantly
surprised. The only thing that really bugs me is the sewage problem in the Gaza
Strip. When the Israeli administration over the years offered to build a modern
sewage treatment plant, the inhabitants flatly refused. Ditto regarding the
Israeli offer to build thousands of new homes.



> We could go through the exercise of listing all the violations,
> case by case, but I think everyone here is familiar with the
> problem. The situation is untenable: no human being would
> tolerate this state of affairs for very long without engaging in
> strong resistance.
>

Wayne, please be specific. What human rights violations ?  Law-abiding
Palestinians in the West Bank live better than I do.


 Do you  think the Israelis should do what the Americans did ?

1) 10 years ago when 3 armed Blacks took over a deserted building in
Philadelphia, the mayor called in the Air National Guard who BOMBED a whole
city block.

2) the U.S. Supreme Court rules that it's OK to have a RETARDED 15 year old
Black youth convicted of murder to be executed;

3) a 10 year old boy who at age 9 took his father's gun and angrily shot and
killed a friend in an argument can be found by an American court to be liable
for a LIFE imprisonment.


Wayne, do yourself a favor and make a trip here. You don't have to fly with the
Nazi fascists from EL AL; there's always your favorite airline: LUFTHANSA.



> If most Israelis fail to appreciate this point, then I truly do
> think that Israel is a lost cause and that the Western democratic
> world will before long cut any meaningful ties with her.

I'm sure they'll cut their meaningful ties with Israel when Israel comes up
with a petroleum substitute :-) Hint, wink, grin. By the way, what's the latest
price on buckminsterfullerene ??  (I'm sure you're dying to know why I asked
that).


>
> I just noticed in a post from Schmidling that John Anderson will
> be heading up an organization dedicated to taking on the Israeli
> lobby in the U.S. If I were an emotional pro-Israel supporter, I
> would see that as an ominous sign indeed, and as an indicator of
> the extraordinary degree to which the behavior and rhetoric of
> Israel and its American lobby is beginning to turn off and
> alienate mainstream America.

Well, I suppose the Japanese would *love* to get their hands on what the
Israelis have developed. THe developers were: a professor of ** engineering at
***, a professor of chemical physics at Hebrew University, a physician from
Florida, and other sundry folk :-)


>
> What, btw, do you propose to do about the nearly 2 million
> Palestinians in the occupied territories? Keep them under the
> boot of the Israeli military occupation for another two decades?
> Make them Israeli citizens with full democratic rights? Expel
> them? Give them their own state?
>

As I stated before: **IF** they follow the same rules that are applied to get
American citizenship (5 year waiting  period with no criminal record, passing
a citizenship  exam, swearing an oath of allegiance, serving in the Israeli
Army), I and many other Israelis see no problem with Palestinians getting
Israeli citizenship. Sure, I'd want some Jewish symbolism (kosher food in
army, etc) but nothing more than that. The other option is to boot out King
Hussein and appoint Yasser Arafat to be president of Palestine (in what's now
the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which in any case is 80% Palestinian).

>  JB> Wayne McGuire's obsession with Israel leads me to ask one
>  JB> question:
>
>  JB> HOW MANY TIMES have you made a fact-finding tour of Israel
>  JB> and WHICH PLACES did you visit ?
>
>  JB> Until I get an answer Wayne, I'll be your Cato ("Ceterum
>  JB> censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"). I'll repeat my question
>  JB> until you're blue in the face. Until then Wayne, put up or
>  JB> shut up
>
> If I understand your logic correctly, Josh, any American Jew who
> hadn't personally visited and inspected the Soviet Union in the
> seventies and early eighties had no right to speak out about
> human rights abuses against Jews there, right? And any American
> who hasn't visited South Africa has no right to speak out about
> human rights abuses in that country, correct? Sorry, but I don't
> buy your premise, but feel free to turn blue in the face if it
> makes you happy.

Thank you for not answering my question.

Wayne, simple yes or no. Have you EVER visited Israel ? If so, HOW MANY times
and WHEN and WHERE did you visit ?

After you come here (I'll give you a personal guided tour) you then have the
right to state your opinion. Unfortunately, the media is way too slanted
against Israel and it's unfair to be a Monday-morning quarterback from 10,000
miles away.

My offer holds for ANYONE who can legally enter Israel. I'll give you a
personal guided tour.

>
>  JB> My query extends to all those non-Arabs who are obsessed
>  JB> with Israel. Ask yourself why Israel is on your agenda.
>
> I am always surprised that so many pro-Israelists can't grasp the
> fundamental point here: non-Arab Americans have taken a strong
> interest in the Mideast and Israel because we have had these
> issues shoved in our faces and down our throats by the Israeli
> lobby. Israel receives the lion's share of American foreign aid,
> nearly $1,000 per Israeli per annum. Because of our close
> connections to Israel, Israeli actions rebound on the U.S. in
> often unpleasant ways.

Oh so NOW it's due to the financial aid Israel gets ?

>
> If Israel stops demanding that the U.S. be so deeply involved in
> her affairs, and gives up U.S. foreign aid, I think most
> Americans would not give much thought or attention to Israel at
> all. That would be a much healthier situation all around, I
> think.


NO PROBLEM ! As soon as buckminsterfullerene drops in price. :-)
Of course, then it will be America's turn to ask for aid.

Incidentally, until 1973, Israel got a VERY small amount of foreign aid from
the U.S. Isn't it strange that the Arabists from the State Department were so
anti-Israel from 1948 onwards ??  Isn't it awfully strange that the Palestinian
Liberation Organization (you know: the organization to *liberate* Palestine)
was in operation in 1964, THREE YEARS before the Israeli *occupation* of the
West Bank and Gaza in the Six-Day War of 1967 ??

Food for thought.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL


> ---

>  ~ OLX 3.0 31-2557 ~ Policy wonks do not create wealth.
> --
> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast