From: ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir Thunarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: men's spirituality (was Re: New Pagans and Reading)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 15:59:31 CDT
Organization: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru - Elder Hof

Recently Bill Nelson writes:

> ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir Thunarsson) writes:
> : > >
> : > > >   Looks like you've gone and stuck your foot in your mouth this time
> : > > > Men created women's mysteries, just for the record, not women.
 For your information Bill I did not write this part of your posting. This was
done by Hulda  commenting on one of Ailsa's letters. 



> They did? Do you believe that all women follow Gardner or the other Wiccan
> faiths that are outshoots of the Gardnerian tradition? If so, you know little
> about women's spirituality.
> Once again, Where you are drawing your inferrence is not my wording! But, to
respond to the Gardenarian traditions influence on women in wicca...It had its
impact, but it would be foolish of anyone to claim that it was the ONLY 
influence or even had the greatest influence...so I agre with you there.


> : > > > So now you ask yourself, why? To make money of course. Remember the
> : > > > Gardner? Alexander? Ring a bell? Throw a little Golden Dawn in there
> : > > > have todays wicca. And of course let's not forget Buckland. He's get
> : > > > rich off of females like yourself. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not k
> : > > > wicca, I used to be wiccian myself. Until I decided to find the "TRU
> 

Once again Bill, not MY words but Hulda's! Watch the *flames* that you throw
around. However, I agree with much of the above statement. Each of these 
individuals have had an impact on a sizeable portion of wicca, along with
the likes of Kelly, Farrar, Vailiente, Marion Weinstein and Leland to name
a few.

> See above. Wicca, and (in particular) the versions you have been exposed to,
> do not make up Wicca - only a small subset. Neither necessarily have anything
> to do with womens mysteries or spirituality.
> 
 Granted! But again, you are using another's words to *flame* me.


> : > > > religion. Now I am a member of the Asatru community. And VERY happy.
> : > > > what I was looking for. Yes, I still worship the Lord and Lady, but
> : > > > truer form. I call them Freyr and Freyja. We also have male mysterie
> : > > > Asatru. For all you manly men out there searching. Odin was the most
> : > > > mysterious of the Gods. Through him you may find those mysteries you
> : > > > to be missing.
> 

  Still, you haven't quoted me, but Hulda. Where was your head when reading
 this? Still, the phrase used here was not meant to be inflamatory by Hulda.
It did turn out to be a colossal error and one that she deeply regrets. The
term true used here by Hulda was not used in an universal sense but in an
ancestral one with Hulda being of Germanic descent. So, I agree it was not
well stated and has led to much misunderstanding and hard feelings. We can
all still overcome such animosity and I, at least will try to do so. Anyone
wish to join me?!!!

> Ah yes, the "True" Asutra. Where have I heard that before? Odin is mysterious
> No more so than many other gods.
> 
>Here I must differ with you. He is far and away the most mysterious of any of
the Aesir or Vanir. He is also darker in aspect. He is, however, no more 
mysterious than SOME of the gods of other traditions and religions.

 
> : intended not to heal, teach or inform but only to hurt. What Hulda said may
> : have injured your pride and hurt your feelings...but she also does not live
> : by the Wiccan Rede as you profess to do. If you truly believe "...And It Ha

  Ah hah! At last you quoted me...CONGRATULATIONS!
> 
> Hah! Hulda hurt Ailsa's pride or feelings? Not bloody likely - it takes 
> someone a lot sharper witted than her, or you, to do that. 
> 
 Evidently, by her responses to me I struck a chord somewhere. But I still
think that if we can put this childish name calling and finger pointing
behind us we CAN actually learn from each other. It may be foolish, but
I still cling to that hope.

> : None..." you have violated this trust in a very "common" and mean spirited
> : manner. I hope as you read your own missive you will see the hate implied
> 
> I suggest that you do not try to apply your interpretation of the Rede to
> everyone else. Yours is far too restrictive. If a person lived by it, they
> would not be able to associate with anyone. 
> 
 Yes, you are right there ,Bill! I should not judge someone  by my inter-
pretation of their rede. They may only be judged by THEIR interpretation.
I stand corrected and I was out of line.

> Yes, Ailsa is spirited. I would be disappointed if she wasn't. However, I
> don't see where there was any hatred in her posting. Maybe a bit of intoleran
> for fools - but, many of us have that problem.
> 
 Yes, we do! Question: Is it foolish to try to right the wrongs on both our
parts? I'll work on mine...Will you and Ailsa work on yours?


> 
> : Whether Hulda was right or wrong in her posting is not at issue here. That
> 
> Oh, but it is. Any posting here is to a public forum. As such, it is open
> to any type of response that a person wishes to make.

 Not when it includes vulgarities and direct insult that borders on slander
and liable! 
> 
> : is for later discussion to determine. What is at issue is your "own"
> : lack of class and good common sense. I do not wish to *FLAME* you but you
> : have brought this reprimand upon yourself. Also, for your information, I
> 
> : am not anti-wiccan and neither is Hulda if the truth be known. Her opinions
> : on certain aspects of wicca (esp. Dianic) are formed from the personal
> : experiences she has had within these circles. Some of them I have first han
> : knowledge of since I would occassionally be a visiting "Lord" to her former
> : coven's circles. Try to understand where some of these "feelings" come from
> : before you begin to run off at the mouth. Now that I have compleated my
> : soapbox...Try not to think of Hulda or myself as an enemy. Think of us 
> : instead of people that belive differently than you do and say so. There
> : is no need for a war of words. I would much prefer to exchange information
> : about each others belief on a more friendly and constructive basis. I hope
> : you will see things the same way. If not...you have to live with that 
> : decision! BLESSED BE AND BE POSITIVE!
> 
 Good, you were able to find another quote of mine. I still stand by this one
without any reservation or hesitation!


> If you had wanted to be positive, you would have made that response by
> e-mail and not posted it to the net.  Hypocrite.
> 
 Ailsa and yourself may have followed your sage advice as well! I only 
followed within the same structure as she and you. But I do agree this sort
of dirty laundry should be kept on a more private level.

                                 Wassail!
                                 Ymir