From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re:      Re: God Is Unfair
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 07:15:11 GMT

In article <1efahaINN5qj@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> starr-daniel@yale.edu (Daniel Starr) writes:
>As a Jew myself, I think it's my turn to jump in in defense of both
>the Torah 
>AND
>the Greeks.
>
>Let's start off by noting that while the Iliad and the Odyssey make great
>literature -- and as literature (as opposed to moral text) they far outdo
>the Torah (and the New Testament, for those who are interested in that) --
>Plato condemned nearly all literature (see his _Republic_) 
>as providing bad role models and overly emotional influences on youth.
>
>So... if I were going to teach morality via the Greeks, I should use
>what the Greeks used, namely the works of Plato and Aristotle!  (and 
>Socrates, as Plato records him... and if I were really keen on this,
>I could bring in some of the other philosophers...)  
>
>You certainly can teach a complete moral system -- several such
>systems, in fact -- from the Greek philosophers.  Moreover, because
>they were directly intended as such, you can teach them with much less
>effort and need for interpretation than is required by the use of the Torah.

Exactly.  Glad you jumped in here and said what I intended to say,
and said it better than I could have myself.  It was the great works
of philosophy that I was referring to, not the mythology.  It seems
to me that if the intent is to teach from literature, the literature
ought to be as clear as possible, and not require a whole lot of
contorted interpretations or reference to magical gods and things.
If a flaw is found in the work, it ought to be rewritten rather
than "interpreted."

>Now, as for the Torah:  I think most Gentiles don't know how the Torah
>is employed among us.  It is taken to be the word of God, but that doesn't
>mean it is simply to be read literally and memorized, or worse yet to be
>treated as a unified declaration of purpose on the part of God that admits
>of immediate interpretation and application -- any such attempt, as any
>casual reader can observe, is doomed to confusion.  

But the fact that it is supposed to be the word of God gives it an
unhealthy aura of authority.  Great works of philosophy are always
wide open to question (or at least they should be) because they
were written by mere mortals.  It seems to me that the whole purpose
of calling the Torah the word of God is to cause people to treat
with a reverence that it would not deserve if it had to stand on
its own.  Otherwise, why not just call it the biased cultural record
of the Jews, and open it up wide for scrutiny?

>[...]

>I apologize to those out there who may find my reverential attitudes a bit
>cloying; but in any case I hope I have somewhat loosened any preconceptions
>about how we Jews employ the Torah.  Frankly, by far the best way really
>to understand it -- and I do recommend this, because I assure you, 
>regardless of your opinions on God you will find it fascinating! -- is to
>find a Talmud study group and sit in on one of their sessions (preferably,
>of course, one that does a fair amount of speaking in English), or
>similarly to talk to a Rabbi about Torah interpretation; or to find one of
>the occasional books on the subject.  

I do not agree that this is the best way.  What you're likely to encounter
using this approach is a sales job, or, unless you've got a lifetime to
spend at it, a superficial impression.  I think that the best way to
determine how Jews employ the Torah, and what the effect of the religion
on the people is, is to lurk on soc.culture.jewish for awhile.  I think
that's true for any religion or cult.  If I believed everything said
by the adherents of a religion, or judged a religion based on the books
written by its followers, I would be forced to concede that all religions
are wonderful things.  I'm not saying that all religious people are liars;
just that once they've been indoctrinated, it becomes almost impossible
for them to see the down side of their religion.
--
Should the human race not be extinguished by a nuclear war, it will degenerate
into a flock of stupid, dumb creatures under the tyranny of dictators who rule
them with the help of machines and electronic computers.  This is no prophecy,
just a nightmare.  -- Max Born.   **** dgraham@bnr.ca    My own opinions. ****