From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Sean gets his reply (finally)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 05:56:52 GMT

Sean Hartigan writes:

>John Muehlhausen writes:
>>    I am interested to know if any of the following were a part of your
>> "Christian" life (please to not get mad at the quotes, I am not trying to be
>> obnoxious...)

[...various Q's satisfied...]

>>    Did you give your life to Him, regardless of where He might tell you to go
>>    or what He might tell you to do?
>
>I longed to give my life to him...this I think was one of the things that
>began to undermine my faith. I burned to give my life to Him..but there didn't
>seem to be anyone to take it! 

Lets see if I understand correctly... You wanted to live for God but were at
a loss as to how that could be accomplished?  There wasn't anything that you
could _do_ for God?

>>    Did you get plenty of fellowship with other people who are trying to be
>>    more Christ-like?
>
>I have tried to "fellowship" with Christians many times in my life. Of many
>denominations, including Pentecostal, Catholic, Mormon, United Church of
>Canada.  This was a bad move, I think :-) because the other Christians I met
>always repelled me strongly. They seemed so full of self-love, and so empty
>of the kind of yearning for closeness to the Divine that was my prime
>motivation in life. They seemed to have no interest in God except as a means
>for gratifying their own egos and desire for pleasure (spiritual). This was
>univerally true, everywhere I went. I have read of Christians with whom I feel
>I could "fellowship" even today: Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross, the
>early Gnostics and Thomasites. Where are the people like that now? Gone - or
>few and far between. I feel no fellowship at all with the majority of
>Christians, who want to use God the way a junkie uses heroin.  

I have noticed that once a church gets "tied down" it tends to fizzle out.  I
avoid major denominations like the plague. :-)  I am currently involved in
Great Commission ministries which has strong campus, community, and world
outreach and fellowship organizations.  The large majority of these people
are devoted 100% to God... probably because the leadership must raise their
own support and we are more "Life Group" focused than large gathering
focused.  What this means, essentially, is that the leadership gets smeared
all over the church and the close relationships keep members accountable and
"mobile" in their walk with the Lord.  What I mean by "mobile" is that they
cannot stay where they are and be comfortable with the setting.  It is
strictly "grow or go".  We manage to find plenty of opportunities to serve
God. :-)  We do not "use God" as above, but rather He uses us and we see the
results! (more later)  The Bible is very clear that fellowship is a very
important part of the Christian life - both by example and exhortation.  I
know it is hard to find believers that want to grow with you, but they do
exist!  "Some want to live within the sound of the Sunday morning bell... I
want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!"  - I forget who said that.
I like it though!

>>    The objective question to ask of this is "why should I think this is any
>> different than brainwashing oneself with any given philosophy?" 
>> I cannot
>> give an objective answer.  All I can give is that I do realize this and am
>> capable of looking at my beliefs objectively,
>
>Do you really think so?  What does that mean? It means you judge them in the
>light of your experience. What is the organizing ideology of your experience?
>Catholic-derived Christianity. So, you're going to judge Catholic-derived
>Christianity in the light of Catholic-derived Christianity. Do you think this
>is likely to lead to true understanding? If I judge Marxism in the light of
>Marxism, am I likely to find difficulties?

First of all, I am not at all sure of what you mean by "Catholic-derived
Christianity".  Do you mean catholic in the literal sense or the Catholic
church?  Either way, I am a Bible-derived Christian, period.  I cannot
over-emphasize that enough.  That doesn't mean that good ideas can't come
from other sources, but in the end they must stand up to Biblical scrutiny.
This is reflected in how our church is run, from the leadership to the
worship service.  We are not tied down by much (if any) man-made tradition.

To answer your question, I feel that I can be objective.  There is nothing
that "bugs" me about Christianity.  If I am trying to put Marxism into
practice, and things which "bug" me but do not hurt me pop up, I think I
could be objective enough to re-evaluate.  Please be careful with analogies.
This is not really like anything else you know.  Just think about that and
I'll see if I can find some words for it at a later date...

BTW, there _have_ been things that I have not liked in both individuals and
policies in GC, but in each case I have prayed about it and approached them
with the problem and in every case it has been resolved to everyone's
satisfaction.  Sometimes they change, and sometimes I change -- nobody sweeps
stuff under the rug.  Sometimes it is not comfortable, but I really feel that
God is leading our decisions as a group.

>> but there is something
>> more to this particular one.  It is real.  Assuming that you are right, what
>> have I lost by living this way? 
>
>What you will have lost (if Sean-centred solipsism is not the true state of 
>the universe) is connection with your experiential existence, having abandoned
>it in favor of an imagination-based life. Strictly speaking, you will have 
>abandoned the Divine in favor of it's shadow. However, let's not get into that
>one right now!  

Lets do get into it if you don't mind. :-)  I think you are proposing that
"God" is to be found in absolute relativism.  Before you deny this, consider
that you have already said that no one can know anything for sure.  I ask:
"Do we live in a reality of non-absolutes and confusion?"  Certainly not.
Why can't there be an absolute, knowable God behind an absolute, knowable
reality?  Your "experiential existence" is nothing new to me -- in fact I
think I accept a broader range of experiences than you do.

You have said that I cannot be as sure as I am about God, or that I am not a
butterfly.  So I ask "How do you know you are Sean?  Is not the inner
knowledge that you exist as an individual an irrefutable absolute?"  This is
true regardless of whether or not one is a dreaming butterfly, mind you.

Now listen carefully:  I claim Christ in me.  I claim that inner absolute
knowledge of God, just as you must claim an inner, absolute knowledge of
yourself.  To deny that you exist as an absolute individual is insane, don't
you think?

If you hold strictly to your original proposition, how is Sean's life (based
on physical experience - which is not knowable in an absolute way) any less 
imaginative than mine?  In fact it is much more so, because you substitute 
spiritual imagination for spiritual absolutes!

>> What would you lose by trusting in Jesus for
>> your salvation? 
>
>Nothing, really. But that is not what you want. You want me to fill my head
>24 hours a day with dogma and self-projected illusion. If all that was required
>was that I trust in Jesus for my salvation, I could do that easily. I would
>have a certain amount of doubt as to whether or not I was right to do so, 
>but I could do it. As it stands now, I think it is impossible to have 
>certainty about our lives without deception. How do you know that you 
>aren't a butterfly sleeping in a field somewhere and that your life to date
>isn't just a butterfly's sweet summer dream? How do you know that every thought
>you have isn't placed there by Satan himself? You don't...but you go on as if 
>you did. That is how I know you are deluding yourself. Certainty is always
>delusion, because certainty is impossible. 

Therefore you, as well, must be deluded, because whatever philosophy you now
have can not be considered absolute.

Now listen carefully:  You have absolutes.  You will always have absolutes.
The more you deny any the more that denial becomes one.  Oops!  Better get
rid of the stance that you can't have absolutes, because that is an
absolute stance!

I am not talking about illusions here Sean.  If you want to slip into
confused obscurity with a relative view of life, go ahead.  I am telling
you right now it is impossible for humans to hold such views in a true
fashion.  Why is that?  Because we are in the image of an absolute, personal
God.  This is where we get our absolute, personal identity.  Assuming you
now grant me that the later exists, where would such a thing come from if
not from a creator?

>> I cannot think of anything that is worth having in the first
>> place.  I know you are thinking that you would be believing a lie, and for
>> that reason it would have no meaning. 
>
>We cannot KNOW anything for sure about the ultimate nature of our lives, so
>belief in Jesus is as acceptable to me as any other belief. But belief for
>me means humility - humility that acknowledges that one really has NO IDEA
>whether or not one's belief is correct. That kind of belief is all that's
>posible for the honest man - but Christianity won't accept that. It's not
>good enough. That is how I know it's delusion. 

Don't you see now that your reasoning is hopelessly contradictory?  You say
you "know it's delusion" and yet "one really has NO IDEA"...

By your own definition you cannot know that "We cannot KNOW anything for
sure about the ultimate nature of our lives".  I am telling you that you
can know for sure, and you might as well, because it is impossible to
reject all absolutes!  In doing so you have accepted one!

>> Tell me what evidence you have (major
>> stuff here, not pidly crap) that the Christian God does not exist.  Personal
>> testimonies count extra. :-)
>
>I have no evidence. There is lots of evidence that Christianity arose 
>in the same way as any other ideology, but this does not rule out the
>possiblility of God's influence. I do not say that God does not exist (indeed,
>in a Gnostic sort of way, I would certainly agree that he does),  but
>Catholic-derived Christianity has turned Him into a comic-book figure. It is
>this comic-book figure that repels me. I cannot fill my mind with this nonsense
>any longer - God only is when the mind is not filled with images. This 
>understanding of God is in direct variance with Catholic-derived Christianity,
>which is why I am unable to join their happy ranks. 

AGREED!  God is not a comic book figure!  The word does not do Him justice -
it carries no real meaning.  When I step back and really understand who I
am dealing with in God I have no choice but to crumble in fear and humility.
This is the Biblical fear of God.  That awesome supremacy then makes the love
he has for pidly me all the more terrific!  Excuse me for a second while I
get a tissue...

I hope I am doing God's will by posting to this group.  I really am not sure
sometimes because His time to use me is so precious.  I am on the verge of
quitting it but people like you give me hope.

>> In article <1992Aug29.155355.7212@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>> 
>>>Ok, sure. Alas, looks like an old mythology to me...and my former belief in
>>>it (I see know) occurred because ANY unfalsifiable system looks true if you
>>>accept it's initial premises. Which I did, attributing feelings which have
>>>no connection to Yahweh to just such a mythological figure.
>> 
>> For me it looks true as you are saying, but more than that I know its true
>> and it is true.
>> 
>
>See? Certainty. Sorry, comrade. Certainty is always delusory. 

Your certainty MUST be delusory, then?

>>>> But that is just darkness.
>>> 
>>>So says this unfalsifiable dogma, which I used to hold also. I'm sure it seems
>>>true to you at the moment.
>> 
>> Please try and shake me - I am a sensible person.
>
>You seem like a good fellow. I could try and shake your faith, I could try
>and convince you that the atheistic world view makes more sense, and to me
>it does make more sense than Catholic-derived Christianity. However - I 
>would be serving you better if I could encourage you to take a look at 
>what you are doing in being so sure of yourself. You are worshipping an image;
>maybe God is real, but you are not worshipping Him. Only the "poor in spirit"
>can do that, and right now your spirit is very full of other people's images.
>Jesus said: "Become passers-by." That means pass by everything - even your
>images of God. Only when you have passed by everything, and there is nothing
>left, does God become apparent.  I guess I would rather get you to take a
>closer look at what Christianity IS and could be, rather than get you 
>to become a scientific materialist. 

I cringe as I read this, because it is not true!  Have you lost the God-
given ability to follow your conscious?  Jesus does not want me to pass
Him (God) by... I am passing the world by, which you are having a hard time
with (scientific materialist??).  Christianity is absolutes.  You have
absolutes.  You know for certain that you cannot know for certain that Jesus
is the way to God, or that anything else is what it seems, including this
way of thinking.  Get a grip man!  There is no honor in objectivity when you
have removed yourself so far that you lose identity and become a bumbling
idiot... (You have not done this obviously, but it is the only end of this
type of thought, if it could be carried through to completion.)

Maybe the atheistic world does make more sense than whatever "Catholic-
derived Christinaity" is.  The point is that Jesus makes sense, and the
Bible makes sense, pure and simple, and God does exist, and you know this,
even though you have told yourself you can't, and atheistic views
hold NOTHING in the way of meaning for life or validity through honest self-
appraisal.

>>>> But this is light!
>>>
>>>Yes, I know it feels good. I know it is intellectually satisfying, 
>>>(if you don't ask TOO many questions - every intellectually active Christian
>>>ends up a heretic. - Hartigan's law. )
>>>
>>>I know it makes life more bearable. I know it provides stimulation, that it
>>>provides companionship, that it allows one to make sense out of the chaos of
>>>experience.  But, if you are a human being like me, it is self-deception to
>>>be as sure about it as you are, comrade. Honest Christians are virtually
>>>indistinguishable from honest atheists. Their most noticeable quality
>>                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>is humility. 
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> Bingo.
>
>It is quite possible that you are a very virtuous person. However, if I may
>say so, intellectual humilty is not exactly radiating from your words like
>sunshine. 

My humility is a realization that I am nothing before God, but I am
everything through Christ!  I know nothing of myself, but I know everything
through Christ!

PLEASE READ 1 COR 2 _CAREFULLY_!!!  I think NASB and NIV are the best 
translations, but read as many as you can.

>> The only thing you can prove is that you
>> can't prove it.  So we have two ways of thinking that are unprovable but
>> cohesive.  One gives meaning to life and the other doesn't.
>
>Not exactly. We do have two ways of thinking here - one that acknowledges it's
>own limitations and one that doesn't. Christianity can give meaning to life,
>but if you are honest, it is a _tentative_ meaning. Your claims of certainty
>reveal that your faith is based on self-projected images, not on God.
>Although you may, in fact, have "had contact" with what I am calling "God,"
>you have idealized that experience into a false ideology, if this is the case.

God is certain!  Gosh-darned it, man - why should God have limitations?
Do you honestly think a faith in self-projected images would mean squat in
real-world application?!?  I want nothing to do with what you are calling
"God."  PLEASE consider what I am saying and respond...

>> Tips the scales,
>> don't it... :-)  Can you say that you are as certain that I am wrong as I am
>> that you are wrong? 
>
>I can say that you are currently deluded (probably not intentionally). This
>does not mean that the mythology you are using to delude yourself is false.

Don't you see that an analysis of yourself MUST come to the same conclusion?

>> I think all that you can _honestly_ say is that you don't know.
>
>With regard to the truth-claims of Catholic-derived Christianity, you are 
>correct.
>
>> From what is external that is all I can conclude as well.  I
>> have an unfair advantage though - I can (and do) claim that God has shown
>> Himself to (and come to live in) my soul.  That evidence cannot be refuted.
>
>The fact that you are so sure of yourself indicates to me that even if God
>does live in your soul, you do not worship him, but rather an image of your 
>own creation.

The fact that you are so sure that I can't be sure indicates to me that
your reasons for rejecting my assurance is contradictory in that you
are also harboring an assurance that I can't be so sure which can't be held
with any assurance as you seem to be doing... :-)

>> But having the Holy Spirit living in you is not myth.  It is now and real
>> and, like I said, undeniable. 
>
>How do you know that whatever is happening to you is the Holy Spirit? You 
>cannot be sure of this. 

Yes I can!  I will go into why in some detail in a moment.

>> I cannot reject God.  It would be like
>> rejecting the fact that I exist.  It would be a terrible lie to myself
>> because it would go against what I _know_, whether I want that knowledge or
>> not!
>
>It is possible that you cannot reject experience X which you have had/are 
>having, but the interpretation you put on it is far from undeniable. 

This is the pivotal issue, then: I claim the experience of a certaing
knowledge.  This cannot be rejected because it is beyond interpretation.
Do you have to interpret your own inner thoughts to yourself?  No - you
just have them: their meaning is quite clear.

>>>> This is incredible!  Everyone should see this!
>>>
>>>I have, comrade.  Your enthusiasm is admirable, but also a bit alarming.
>>>Remember the enthusiastic Hitlerjugend? "Sieg HEIL!" Wheee! What fun!
>> 
>> Have you?  Obviously you have not seen what I have.
>
>*laugh* I remember saying things like that. The world just keeps turning
>around...

Change is not an absolute, and neither is relativism an absolute (!).
God and his will _are_ absolute.  The human psyche _must_ have absolutes
to function (as outlined above), of which God is the ultimate measure.
You exhibit this truth yourself, you know...

>>>> But this is IT!  What you've got is nothing!
>>>
>>>What I have is what's left after you abandon an imaginative view of life.
>>>All you have is life itself. IF you call that nothing, comrade, I wish you
>>>good luck.

Could it be that your unattainable relativism is the imaginative view?

>> It is nothing.  We, of ourselves, are nothing.  80 years is nothing.  Human
>> achievement is nothing.  Read Ecclesiastes.
>
>Eccleiastes is a beautiful little book, but it is a meditation on life by one
>man in a certain mood, not the definitive description of human existence.

What in it is false in any mood?

>>>>    YOU ARROGANT CLOSED-MINDED @*#*!!
>
>[other purported "atheist" rantings deleted]
>
>>>This passage demonstrates almost total ignorance of the position of the
>>>ex-Christian.  To all Christians: you know FAR less about us than we do 
>>>about you. We were once as you are now. You have yet to join our
>>>illustrious :-) ranks - you don't know us at all. 
>> 
>> How is that?  I can honestly call myself an ex-atheist... Of course that
>> ideology _does_ make allowances for disagreement.  And here I am!
>
>Everybody is an ex-atheist. We are all born atheists (lacking belief in God
>or gods) until Mom and Dad and the local Sunday School teacher get to work.
>So movement from atheism to Christianity is something every Christian
>experiences.  However, to lose one's faith irrevocably in Catholic-derived
>Christianity is something you have not done yet, comrade, as I'm sure you
>would agree. Christianity is something I (for example) have passed through.
>You have not done this (yet?) so obviously our perspective on the faith is
>not available to you except second-hand. On the other hand, your perspective
>on the faith is something I remember very well. 

If you had my perspective you would not be where you are now. ;-)

>>>>    WOW!
>>>>    WHY DID I WAIT SO LONG!
>>>> 
>>>>    HEY!  TAKE A LOOK AT THIS!
>>>
>>>Yes, hard-headed Christianity is, strictly speaking, a "branch of the bourgeois
>>>narcotics trade," as Brecht once said of the popular theatre. I know it's
>>>lots of fun. After all, I used to play too. 
>> 
>> If it was a game, even in retrospect, then you were not a Christian.
>> 
>
>*laugh* Spoken like a True Believer. No, it wasn't a game while I played it, 
>it was life and death. I understand your seriousness. Please forgive my levity.
>All I meant was that it is an artificial situation which we embrace in
>pursuit of pleasure, i.e. a game, in one sense of the word. 

Argh!  Pursuit of pleasure?  Anything but!  Joy in the knowledge of my
salvation - yes.  Joy of Christ in me? Yes.  Day-to-day peaches and cream?
No way!  Myself alone as an individual apart from God wants nothing to do
with Christianity.

>I eagerly await your comments on the above. If you could, could you talk more
>about what it is actually like to have "Christ living in you?" 
>For example, tell me what feelings/experiences you have to which you give the
>name "Christ in you." Distinguish between those experiences and others, if you
>could. I would like to know more about this startling claim. Also "The Holy
>Spirit," "God" etc.  What experiences do you give those names to?


Ahh.  The good, hard stuff.  I'm afraid this is quite long.  Oh well.

What is it like to have "Christ living in you?"

First of all, as I try and think of how to respond I keep coming back to
"He just is".  I will try and elaborate and give examples as you requested,
but it a little like the following question: "What is it like to be you?"
See the difficulty?  It is hard (impossible) to put into words the inner
thought-patterns, feelings, convictions, and KNOWLEDGE that one has.
Communication is, by nature, flawed and cannot fully express the essence
(soul) of man.  In asking me to do this you have asked the hardest thing
possible in the realm of communication, but I will attempt to answer.  Please
realize that no matter how convincing it is (or isn't) it is still
hopelessly flawed.  I am me, and you can never know me as me.  Granted?
The state of my soul cannot be "projected" as such, which is how God
wants it.  If this were possible, every knee would willingly bow to the
name above all names.  There goes individual faith right out the window.
The only being with which this type of commune is possible is God, and
by seeking Him (not other peoples testimonies) will you come to know Him.

In light of all that I am now extremely discouraged and am going to go
and talk with God before I continue...

You asked me to relate situations/experiences where I saw (or thought I saw)
God at work.  It is not so simple.  You see, when I gave my life to God
(finally) He gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit.  "What does that mean?" you
ask.  What it means is that the best evidence of God's hand in my life is the
growth that I have experienced because of God-in-me (The Holy Spirit).  That
is not to say that there aren't external things that I think God has had a
hand in, but the inner molding towards the perfection of Christ is by far the
most obvious thing (especially to me).  It is also the hardest to relate.  We
then have two categories:  what God has done in me and what God has done
around me.

I will start with the hardest (and most exciting!).  Most (if not all) of
these changes have occured in the past year&1/2 - since I gave my life to
God.  In saying the following I boast only in my knowledge of God, who did
the rest.  It is _totally_ to His glory.

I have been changed from lazy to hard-working.  All through junior high and
high school I was quite the dreamer.  I never felt compelled to _do_
anything.  I was the kid who never had his homework done and was never very
organized.  I was a procrastinator extraordinaire.  The fact that I am smart
allowed me to BS my way through school, but the attitude was there in full
force.  Now I (miraculously, it seems) have quite the work ethic.  It doesn't
seem such a chore anymore to get down to earth and do something (i.e.
homework).  It gets even better when I do it as if for God.  Aside from that
though, I am fundamentally changed.

I have been changed from introverted to extroverted.  This is a biggie.  I
was a shy, out of the limelight, and just plain scared individual.  Now God
has given me the confidence to actually _talk_ to people and confront
uncomfortable situations head-on, etc.  You really must understand that this
is a BIG change.  I don't know exactly how it happened, but it did.  I was
the guy who would cry when yelled at but not when severely injured, if you
know what I mean.  Physical pain meant little (and I still have a high pain
tolerance) but emotional rejection and criticism was a major blow.  I now
have a stability and confidence that I don't think could have come from any
other source but the Holy Spirit.

As you are reading this please don't attribute these things to the "normal
maturing process" because it has all been quite recent and sudden and at an
amazing rate of change.  This is all post-puberty.

I have been changed from selfish to considerate.  All I ever thought about
was how a situation affected me.  Now I almost unconsciously try and look at
things from the other persons point of view, especially on the emotional
level.  I have learned to give of myself cheerfully even when it is not
convenient, and it is the source of much joy!  This has also been a fairly
big change.  My introversion didn't help me put others first either.

[Side note:  in this society it is more or less watch out for yourself.
Think of how much better it would be if people essentially neglected
themselves but were always sriving to watch out for others!  This would have
to be universal to work, but what a system!]

I seldom get angry now. I was never one to openly express my anger for reasons
previously stated.  Does that mean it wasn't there?  Nay...  In fact I was a
very angry person inside alot.  Mostly because for one reason or another I
always though I was getting shorted.  I would absolutely seeth with hatred
and anger at situations and/or persons to the point where I would make
hideous weapons and plan revenge (that never happened) and absolutely beat
the living sap out of the nearest form of vegitation.  Explosions were few
and far between, but when they happened watch out!  Now it just simply isn't
there.  This is also beyond me to explain but I just don't get mad anymore at
all.  I guess it is just a new outlook that makes every person and situation
valuable regardless of how they/it affect(s) me.  I don't make it a point to
"love my enemies", but that seems to be the result.  One interesting side
note that has a lot to do with anger is that my taste in music has changed
drastically.  Just last year I remember getting so much energy out of loud,
"angry" heavy metal music.  Now it is quite dead to me.  It just isn't the
same.  I still like R&R, but the subject matter has definitely changed. :-)

I am more patient.  I was always a perfectionist with myself and with others,
especially when I was motivated to do something.  All out or nothing was my
motto.  This was OK for me (but didn't cause me to like myself a whole lot),
but it REALLY got on other people's nerves.  I could not handle it when
someone made a stupid mistake.  Because such and so was obvious to me I
expected it to be obvious to everyone.  I think now that I try and understand
people more I am more sensitive to potential weaknesses and don't tend to get
impatient with another persons attitude or performance.  I am much more
willing to forgive and forget (goes with anger, I guess).

I am less "lusty". :-)  You know what that means!  Talk about a sex crazed
maniac!  Not more so than you average young male, but then the average young
male is quite a pervert.  Through God's grace my natural introversion kept me
from too much that I regret, and my whole outlook is now changed.  During the
course of a workday this summer a fellow employee would _constantly_ ask me
if I "saw that."  When I asked "What?" in genuine oblivion he couldn't
understand how I missed seeing the most gorgeous thing that just walked by.
This guy was very honest and he would plainly tell me "I want that."  (Yes he
is married - who knows for how long...)  I would tell him thats not the way
it works and he would ask how I stayed above it.  The answer is pretty
obvious - God has allowed me to appraise people in a more Christ-like manner
which does not include thinking about selfish fleshly gratification.  I even
amaze myself sometimes at how little I think about getting into various
womens' pants.  Along with that, (this really belongs in the next section,
but oh well) I have been praying that God would guide me to my intended wife,
which He will do and may have already done.  She is great!  Noelle is
attractive, yet I don't think of her sexually at all other than recognizing
that fact.  Her most attractive qualities are humility before God, wanting
His will for her life, wanting to put family before career, and spontenaity.
I am usually more of an ordered thinker (logical progression and planning)
and she is teaching me slowly but surely how to be "crazy for God".  I still
don't really know what that means... ;-)  We have agreed (and I suprisingly
don't mind at all) to be totally uninvolved with each other physically until 
(if) we get married.  The plan is to make sure we are on the same track
spiritually, make sure we are on the same track mentally and emotionally (or
at least compatible and complimentary), get all of the skeletons out of the
closet, pray, pray, and pray, read the Bible, read the Bible, and read that
sucker some more, and then get married (at least 4-5 years from now) and THEN
pursue a physical relationship.  This is getting off on a tangent but when
people ask how much is too much I say that any activity leading to arousal is
way to much, because that arousal is meant to be fulfilled...  So much for
Chrisitian sex and dating 101...

I have grown in my friendships. Along with Nellie I have developed VERY close
friendships with other believers and opened up to a point that would have
terrified me not too long ago.  Close friendships with non-believers still
tend to elude me, but God says not to be yoked to non-believers anyway...

My conscience is in good working order.  This is strange, but little things
that were never even given a first thought, much less a second, now come to
mind as being wrong.  I will skip treating myself to desert because "my body
is a temple."  There are many other stupid examples, but you get the idea.
This is not merely common sense kicking in - I feel as if it is _wrong_ as in
sin.  God has given me increasing power to just reject temptation, even on
such a small order.  I just plain don't have the desire to go against God's
will.  Such things no longer hold anything for me.  (Things like sex, getting
smashed, and all of the other good university things to do)

I'm sure there is much, much more and what is there is only the tip of the
iceberg, but you can get a pretty good picture of what God has been doing to
me.  It all boils down to me being able to love much more now in a genuine
sort of way.  Now for experiences.

I know that my best days will be the ones where I get time with God.  This
has been so universally true that it is almost a given (and insentive to get
that time!).  I am generally more joyful with such a mindset and am much more
in tune with what God is doing around me.  

The most striking examples have been in the social context.  I have this
mysterious way of just happening into people who want to know about God. :-)
Just today I was walking to class and had some time to spare so I stopped by
brother Jim's rantings and ravings and observed for awhile, slowly building
my case.  I then asked if I could read some verses to the croud, did, got him
upset and made the croud think, and went to class.  Guess what?  TA doesn't
show.  I get my tail back over to brother Jed's and we discuss his erring
ways with the croud some more.  The outcome?  Three people approached me
about a genuine interest in what the Bible has to say...  Things that make ya
go hmmmmm....  The funny thing is that speaking like that in front of a crowd
about controversial stuff is that _last_ thing John would do.  It is however
something that Christ would do (though much better than me) and He gave me
the power to do it.  Guess what else - I just happened to bring my Bible
_and concordance_ to math!  I had this little feeling that I might need them!
Ha!  There goes that Holy Spirit again.

I am to tired right now to think about this any more, and it is getting late,
and I have homework, and I want to finally get this posted.  If you ask I
will try and remember some more experience oriented things.  They all go
pretty much like the above (though it was a particularly good example to
relate to someone else... Hmmmm!).  Kinda funny how that just happened today.
In fact come to think of it it happened right after I wrote above that I was
going to talk with God about this!  Wowzers!  I didn't even think of that
until just now!  Can't say that I'm suprised though...



>Sean Hartigan
>hartigan@ac.dal.ca

MLIC,
John M.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism