From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Date: 16 Nov 1992 13:43:06 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov16.072039.3429@midway.uchicago.edu>, mss2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
=In article <1e3lqaINNadv@gap.caltech.edu> lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
=>    The Christian god, on the other hand, may pose some problems.
=>        The god of those who interpret the Bible metaphorically and who  allow
=>        that  their  god  is  no  longer  in  the  miracle  business is not in
=>        conflict, as far as I can see, with science.
=
=>        The god of  the  Pentecostal  religions  who  is  omnipotent  and  who
=>        intervenes  on  almost  a  daily  basis  in  the affairs of the world,
=>        however,  is  another  matter.   Such  a  god  renders  the   universe
=>        unpredictable.    Given  such  an  all-powerful  kibbitzer,  the  only
=>        possible explanation for anything is "It's god's will."
=
=	"I'd think there's a middle ground between `no longer in the
=miracle business' and `intervenes [implicitly `intervenes by
=detectably suspending natural law'] on almost a daily basis.

Certainly there is.  Though with the ominpotent Christian god, it's difficult
to tell where you are in the spectrum.

=Consider a simple universe: a pinball machine.  From observations of the
=universe beneath the glass, one might be able to develop a
=sophisticated science of mechanics.  But while one could develop some
=hypotheses as to when the flippers would flip, it would be impossible
=to reduce it to a science.  Too many factors intervene.  (We presume
=that the player is unknowable except in his manifestations as flipper
=movements; for this thought experiment we are limited only to the
=world of bumpers, lights, balls, flippers, etc. which exist within the
=limits of the pinball playfield.)  The vast majority of the balls' motions is
=perfectly lawful (and almost perfectly Newtonian)-- but every so often
=an unpredictable factor is introduced into it, at intervals which are
=not known to the inhabitants (a ball can pass a flipper with no
=action, or a player could nervously work the flipper when no ball is
=nearby).  Is science possible within the pinball universe?"

I thought I'd covered this case when I said that the gods of many other
religions, who weren't omnipotent and had to obey at least SOME rules, didn't
necessarily conflict with science.  You see, by constraining the god to act
only via the flippers, you've removed his omnipotence.  In the pinball
universe, science can work everywhere except in the vicinity of the flippers.
Indeed, since the ball is influenced only by the physical interaction with the
flippers, science can work in the vicinity of the flippers.  It can even work
on the flippers to some extent, in that it can describe the range of motions
allowable to the flippers, and so forth.  It just can't deal with the question
of when the flippers will be activated.  It's similar to the situation we face
in quantum mechanics:  QM can describe the amplitude of a wave function, but it
can't predict just where a particle will choose to manifest.  All it can do is
assigne probabilities.