HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dancing; post-period sources...
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 12:58:10

 RW>  Somehow, Strip the Willow doesn't 'feel' early enough to me.  I 
 RW> think it's  the idea of chaining down the entire 
 RW> set of dancers and back up that feels  late - most of the early 
 RW> English Country Dances, even those for "as many as  
 
 BA>  Well, you're judging it based on your knowledge of *English* Country 
 BA>  Dances.  It's a Scots Reel.  Would you base the accuracy of the Italian 
 BA>  dances you know on what you know about English Country?  Apples and 
 BA>  oranges.....

 True, but what do any of us know about Reels in the 15th and 16th c.????

 And no, wouldn't judge Italian Elizabethan against English Country, two  different time periods and attitudes towards dance. However, most of the  figures I've seen in current English/Irish/Scottish folk dances are far more  similar than different.  (Can't count the Irish step dances here, as they're  an aberation caused by suppression of Irish folk dance by the English.)  The  figures in StW just seem later -- as I said, it's a feeling, based on many  years of dance, and some exposure to Irish & Scottish

 dance and also  Regency dance outside the  Society, and not completely something that I can  put a finger on.  Similarly, there a spot in Peppers Black, where the  couples do that diagonal swing (barn  doors) double to the side couples to  honor that dates the dance as later than 1650 to me.  It 'feels' late.

 My real abivalence towards the dance StW probably comes from its absolute  lack of any dancing ability -- you need no grace to dance it, merely good  wind.  *feh*  I'd rather dance something fun, as dancing only to cause  exhaustion is NOT my idea of fun.  What's the point when you're moving too  fast to flirt??

 As I've said tho, if the group wishes to do the bally thing, I'll go  camp in the hall with a good book until you're done.

 --- Vashti of the Flaming Tresses 
 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nomad@castle.org (Lee Damon)
Subject: Re: Unescorted Minors at Events
Keywords: minors releases
Organization: The Castle, not-yet-Public Access Un*x Systems; Mahopac, NY
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 02:37:10 GMT

In article <k9LLsB2w164w@cellar.org> tsa@cellar.org (The Silent Assassin) writes:
>"Welcome to the event."
>Sorry, but I see all this waiver this, and release form that in the SCA as a
>very bad thing.  It is merely a reflection of the society which we are in,
>but I have always thought of the SCA as a place where you don't need release
>forms.

Sadly, it isn't the SCA that wants the forms. We'd LOVE to get rid of
all that paperwork and mumbojumbo, believe me!

The problem is the scourge of society, the lawyer. (Ya, Shakespeare was
right!) If anything happens at an sca event, some lawyer (usually
for an Insurance Company (the other scourge of society)) will sue
someone else - even if the people involved don't want to.

As I understand it (mind you, this is third or fourth hand information)
a child drowned at an event some years ago. The parents took responsibility
because they weren't watching the tyke, but their Insurance company
sued the SCA for neglagence - even though the parents didn't want to.

We can't stop the bastards. We try to protect ourselves as best
we can. Many of us are of the opinion that wavors are worthless,
but they are the best we can do.

Don't blame us, we're just the messengers.

Christopher Thomas                             mka Lee Damon
Constable (very much) at large, An Tir
(surviving in Northpass, EK)                   Mahopac, NY

nomad
-- 
play: castle!nomad or nomad@castle.org                                 \
work: nomad@watson.ibm.com                  - Lee "nomad" Damon -       \
Seneschal; The Castle, Public Access Un*x Systems.                     / \
  - Unashamed -                                                       /   \
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dancing; post-period sources...
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 19:02:16

 The Honorable Lady Gwenllian says to Master Justin de Couer:
 BA>  .... On the subject of dances accepted from pos-period sources, like ]
 BA>  the English Country Dances, I'd like to inquire as to your opinion on 
 BA>  the Scottish reels.  In specific, Strip the Willow.  I know that we 
 BA>  don't find instructions for reels until past any reasonable "slop-date" 
 BA>  but I do know that they are mentioned in period, very late, but 159? 
 BA>  (1593 is what has stuck in my memory).
 BA>      Based on that mention, and the very simple nature and lack of 
 BA>  known post-period elements, I would think Strip the Willow would be 
 BA>  acceptable as a dance ..... words fail me.  Certainly not good enough 
 BA>  for entry in an Arts & Sciences competition.... Acceptable to my 
 BA>  feeling of "authenticity", which Korobuska isn't.  Your opinion?

 My 2 cents worth.....

 Somehow, Strip the Willow doesn't 'feel' early enough to me.  I think it's  the idea of chaining down the entire set of dancers and back up that feels  late - most of the early English Country Dances, even those for "as many as  will" tend to form small units of four or six dancers within the set that  you dance the measure with.  It feels later than Fandango, a set for 6  that has a weave that could loosely be called chainging down the set (or as  easily a hey with arming for 6).  Most dances also come w




ith a beginning  and an end.  StW just goes on and on until you fall down dead  or mortally  exhausted.  You may gather that this is not my favorite dance.  You would be  right.

 Still, if you and the rest of the Thursday night group want to dance it,  just warn me in advance of the time, so it gets included in the program --  I'll leave and come back once it's over.

 --- Vashti


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Voting for Board members (was Re: On Barons and Membership)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 19:21:17 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Hal wrote:

> ...if the BoD wants to have some privelege that means something, they
> could allow members to vote on BoD members.

I asked the Chairman about this possibility, and she gave me an explanation
that I'd never heard before.  The SCA, Inc. is incorporated in California
as a non-membership corporation; the directors are the only legal members
of the corporation.  According to the Chairman, Calif. law forbids the
corporation from holding elections of the dues-paying members to select
directors or to settle any other issue.  She says that we could
re-incorporate as a membership corporation, but that would require that
virtually any substantive decisions be put to a vote of the dues-paying
membership.  She told me that she believes that the law allows no
intermediate possibility.

It seems strange to me that California law offers us such an all-or-nothing
proposition; I'd love to hear a qualified opinion on the subject.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Peer Fear (was Re: Perceptions of BoD)
Date: 16 Oct 1992 22:08:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1bnaerINN1a1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes: >
>....
>5)  Rank intimidation is a reality.  Very few of us "middle class" folks,
>and certainly no newbie, would every consider approaching senior peers to
>start a conversation about the current "hot" Kingdom political topic, let
>alone some of the stuff the Board is considering.  Heck, I'm not
>comfortable with broaching some of these topics with peers I've known on a
>first name basis for 10 years (particularly when I know the topic is a "hot
>button").
>
And then of course there's the West, where with any kind of luck you will
rub elbows with good old Fred in his grungy faded old T-tunic for six months
to a year, talking to him about ANYthing, before the day he unexpectedly
(probably at Twelfth Night) puts on his good clothes and you find out he's
a triple peer and a megaduke.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: USERSX81@um.cc.umich.EDU
Subject: Buckskinners/black powder?
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:02:50 GMT

Hi, 
 
Does anyone here know of an e-mail contact for those Buckskinner/Black 
Powder folks? 
 
Please e-mail me DIRECTLY, I DO NOT read the Rialto. 
 
Thanks, 
 
Winifred de Schyppewallebotham          Lee Katman 
Cynnabar, Midrealm                      U. Michigan,  Ann Arbor 
                                        Lee_Katman@um.cc.umich.edu
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: ... "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waivers
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:41:30 GMT
Distribution: na, usa, world
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

In article <BvtryF.K4D@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <718495270.F00004@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>
>>So tell us, Aryk, why ARE the women dressed like mushrooms???
>
>I'm buggered if I know.  I think some Western woman once saw a picture of
>a 16th century German woman with her skirts hiked up over a belt, and so
>they all do it with their 16th century German dresses.  And it makes them
>look like mushrooms.

My Dear Lady Wife does a LOT of recreation at Rennaisance Faires and Festivals,
in the Sealed Knot, etc...    She plays a 16'th C washerwoman.   I beleive
they found evidence for this practice in Breughel for working women.
Because she wears a shift, a under skirt, a skirt, an over skirt and an
apron, the large amount of fabric can get in the way when you are feeding
the pigs (we had one last year at Arizona Renn Fest), washing clothes,
cooking, etc...    Hiking one corner of the skirts up under the belt
removes a lot of this fabric from being in the way.   When cooking it is
very important to reduce the chance the stray cloth will wander into the
fire...  this tuck helps prevent that.    So far we have only had 1 skirt
fire in 5 years of 6 weekend/year, 6 hours/day cooking.   This young
girl didn't tuck up her skirt.  (The fire was quickly and efficiently put 
out by other cooking people.   And what was marvelous is that NOBODY
broke character!)

One of her constant comments about recreation (as opposed to dressing up
occasionally) is that it leads to an understanding of WHY they did things.
In her opinion this act of tucking up one corner makes a lot of sense
when you have tried to work for 6 hours in 5 layers of skirt and apron.

This is a little different than what you describe,  but it might be
regional differences (German versus Nederlandisch) on the same idea.

Tom
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 18:10:36 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Alan Fairfax wrote:

>   The last time this came up in the Midrealm, people commonly said,
> "Baron is a title, not an office."  This is true.

Interesting; in the SCA, "a title" is usually something that carries no
formal responsibilities.  Is that how you view landed baroncy?  If so, then
we disagree completely.  

> There is not one, but many, objective criteria for deciding what a baron
> should do--each barony has one.

If that were true, there would be no problem.  I think our history shows
quite clearly that it is not.  If each barony had objective criteria for
judging their baron, then it would be obvious whether someone is a good or
bad baron.  It would be obvious when it is time for a baron to step down
and let someone else have a turn.  Our history and the horror with which
many people contemplate a baron election clearly demonstrate that neither
of these judgements is easily made.  I don't suggest that any barony can
actually write down criteria that are so precise as to eliminate all
subjectivity, but I do think that every barony would do well to try to
clarify what it expects of its baron so that there is some basis for making
these decisions.

My point is that each barony needs to have a well-defined way to choose,
remove, and replace its baron.  Most baronies don't.  Does yours?  We are
in agreement that no single standard is appropriate for the entire Society,
and that the Board should not try to legislate any single solution.  I
believe that we should strongly encourage each barony (or each kingdom,
depending on local custom) to adopt clear procedures for dealing with these
difficult situtations.  I think the Board could reasonably draft guidelines
to achieve that goal.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:50:52 GMT

Aryk misunderstands me.  When I listed the two benefits of having a
Corporation (tax-free checking accounts, and insurance) I was merely
contrasting that with the case of having no corporation at all.
We could, of course, have a dozen kingdom corporations, or 50 state
corporations, or whatever, with no restriction.  But, without *any*
corporation at all, I don't see how we can get those two benefits.

Aryk also corrects my previous post:
  And in a previous post, Mark mentioned that the corporate officer insurance
  would pay for officers who are "found guilty".  You might want to check that
  term -- I've been covered by that sort of insurance before, and while it did
  indeed cover me for civil actions, it would not pay my fines if I were found
  guilty of a crime connected with my actions as a corporate officer.

Indeed, in my attempt to be brief, I glossed the distinction between civil
and criminal prosecution.  In fact, it goes further than that: I believe
that if the SCA were to sue an officer in Civil court for theft, that the
insurance wouldn't cover it.  We may be about to find out....

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Multi-Multi-Dukes
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:21:20 GMT

In article <61041@mimsy.umd.edu> kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) writes:
>Regarding multiple reigns, in Atlantia ....
>
>Of the fairer sex, there are two ladies who have sat the throne more
>than twice:
>Seonaid nic Feion: 3 (as Michael's consort)	(last name misspelled)
>Aslinn Shattemwald: 3 (as Olaf's consort)	(last name misspelled)

I don't even want to think about locating all the Duchesses of more
than two reigns in the West, save that Verena of Laurelyn (now living
in An Tir, but all the reigns were in the West) holds the record.
Whiule I was fairly sure that the figure for James and Verena was 8,
some of my friends are of the opinion that it's 9....

For the lovely attribution--be careful.  Due to the failure to
anticipate events, and a young herald who wasn't too quick on her
verbal feet, the young man who was consort for the first Lady to win
the West Kingdom Children's Tourney is now sometimes known as Old
Graceful and Beautiful.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: jim@woodowl.UUCP (jim klessig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Multi-Multi-Dukes
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:56:40 GMT
Organization: Woodowl, Livermore CA

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

> In East history, four men have reigned three times, and no one more than
> three: Akbar ibn Murad al-ben Muhammed ibn Hakim, Siegfried von Halstern,
> Morgunn Sheridan, and Randal of the Dark.  Two women have reigned three
> times: Khadijah of House Hakim and Wanda von Halstern.  Siegfriend is
> widely favored as the most likely to be the first four-time Eastern ruler.
> 
> ===========================================================================
> Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

What about Gavin? If Sedalia is a Duchess ( Am I wrong about this?) then 
hasent Gavin sat the throne three times? Once with Tamara, and twice with 
Sedalia?

Chandra

--
jim@woodowl.UUCP  (jim klessig)
Woodowl BBS, Livermore, CA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Citrons (was Re: Linen and wool)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 20:31:40 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

William asked:

>What is the difference between a citron and a lemon in English?

citron n pronunciation 'si-tr*n etymology ME, fr. MF, fr. OProv, modif. of
L {citrus} citron tree DEF 1a n the fruit of a tree ({Citrus medica}) like
the lemon in appearance and structure but larger; {also} this tree DEF 1b n
the preserved rind of the citron used esp. in fruitcake DEF 2 n a small
hard-fleshed watermelon used esp. in pickles and preserves

lemon 1 n pronunciation 'lem-*n etymology ME {lymon}, fr. MF {limon} , fr.
ML {limon-}, {limo}, fr. Ar {Xlaymu-n} DEF 1a n an acid fruit that is
botanically a many-seeded pale yellow oblong berry DEF 1b n the stout
thorny tree ({Citrus limon}) that bears this fruit DEF 2 n {DUD}, {FAILURE}
lemon 2 aj DEF 1a aj containing lemon DEF 1b aj having the flavor or scent
of lemon DEF 2 aj of the color lemon yellow

Text copyright (C) 1967 G&C Merriam Company.


I suspect that Citrus medica is native to the Middle East.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Subject: Perceptions of BoD
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 22:40:34 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Lothar writeth:

>I get the sense that people feel that the BoD is unresponsive to
>their wishes. How might we get them to change.

Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke replieth:

> Having worked for 3 years as Corp. Chronicler, lived about 2 miles
> from Joe Radding for a number of years, having known Tim Moran and George
> Johnson and Cecelia Weisenberger for more than 10 years now, I *cannot* 
> let this "sense" go unchallenged.
>  
> People who serve on the Board *care* very much what people think. They 

I have never, to the best of my knowledge, met any Board members in
person.  I do not doubt that they are very compassionate, personable
and honourable, when dealt with in person.

My dealings with the Board have all been by mail, so I only know how
the Board members present themselves in writing to people whom they
have never met.

On most occasions, when I have written to Board members, I have
received replies that suggested that those members would take my
concerns into consideration.

The exception was Tim Moran, whose responses indicated that he knew
what was best for the membership, and we shouldn't worry our little
heads with matters that he had already decided how to deal with.  He
did suggest that it was nice of us to express a concern in the matter,
but that, since he had already made up his mind, our comments wouldn't
make any difference.

He then sent a second response, after the Board meeting, asking me not
to hold him responsible for the way he had voted at the Board meeting!

A friend of mine received similar responses from him, but discovered,
six months after the fact, that he had received her letter when he
RETURNED from the Board meeting, where he had already voted the other
way.  He did not mention this in his letter to her.

As long as Board members send letters like these, it is hardly
surprising that they should be perceived as uncaring.
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, good looking armor
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:34:46 GMT

oh, Twcs.
I am truly sorry.



Judith L. Tabron		Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu
Dept. of English Lit.		Yasun Bogeleku
Brandeis University		Household of the Great Dark Horde
Waltham, MA			(currently scouti-- LIVING in Carolingia)
	SAXON MONGOLS UNITE!
Darwin's Law -- If you're Dumb, you Die!
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Handicapping Crown List
Date: 13 Oct 92 12:32:20 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Lothar writes:
> 	My question is how WOULD you go about predicting the odds on a
> given fighter in a tourney (for recreational purposes only ;}). I'm sure
> that somebody has done it before.

Here in the East and AEthelmearc, My knight, Sir Andreas Hak publishes
_The Betting Man's Guide to [Crown/Coronet] Tourney [Roman Numerals apropo]_.
It's a dollar a copy, he takes just enough to defray publishing costs and
the rest is donated to the winner to help pay for stamps and phone calls.

The fighters are ranked into "The Favorites" (<20:1), "The Long Shots" (20:1-
40:1), and "The Dark Horses" (>40:1).  The latter are usually divided up into
halves or thirds and labelled "DH of the 1st Order", "... of the 2nd", etc.

As for *how* he ranks them, he just thinks about it for awhile and then puts
down whatever odds he feels are appropriate.  He says when you've been fighting
as long as he has (15+ yrs) you just get a feel for it.  It has nothing to do
with precedence (well, a little), he has put knights in Long Shots and 
unbelteds in Favorites.  He claims about 80% accuracy (finalists in Favorite)
in East and 90% in AEthelmearc.

To finish the story, come tourney day, "Guido"'s bookie, Bookie, is set up at
a card table within sight of the list table.  (Adult) Spectators are allowed
to bet $1 on the fighter of their choice.  When the list table is closed, so
is Bookie.  Den dey fights.  In court, "Guido","Bookie", Guido's Moll (any
convienent female with enough cleavage showing to satisfy Guido), and Guido's
Enforcer (read Teddy Bear) pays a visit ta da new tin hat.  Guido has a violin
case with the hilt of a rattan sword sticking out and a red carnation in the
label of his pin-striped tunic (Yes, you read that correctly!) Guido gives 
Da Hat his "percentage o' da take" (50%).  Winning gamblers have to collect 
their share (50%/# winners) from Bookie during dinner.  When the Great Helm 
gets passed for contributions, all uncollected money goes in.  For appropriate
dialog and accents watch the Star Trek episode, _A Piece of the Action_.

CAVET: I haven't attended Crown Tourney in a while so I don't know if they
still do this.  It has been done in the past.  Also, what we do is legal
in the locality it's in _OR IT ISN'T DONE!_  Your milage (& laws) may vary.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Pirates of the Carribean Event - Dec 12 - Rhydderich Hael - Write for details.