From: harris@ranger.enet.dec.com (ranger::harris)
Subject: Re: Installing Pathworks for VMS on Mac
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:00:18 GMT
X-Posted-Via: NEWS-NOTES gateway (a hack!)

    Re: "bleau@umdsp.umd.edu" -< Installing Pathworks for VMS on Mac >-

> I'm in the process of purchasing Pathworks for VMS (Macintosh) V1.1 and
> Pathworks for VMS V4.1 and have a few questions.  I hope someone ahs had
> experience in doing this and can advise me.
> 
> My university is part of DEC's TEI (The Education Initiative) and DEC's ESL
> (Educational Software Library).  This allows us to get a wide variety of
> DEC software products for free.  All we can do, though, is copy the product
> savesets and install them.  We don't get a separate media for each of us
> (DEC supplies one media set on CD-ROM) and we don't get any documentation
> (we can buy it at 30% off, though).  MSA V1.1 (the Pathworks for the Mac)
> is available through the ESL.  Something tells me, though, that you have to
> do something on the Mac side to get it to be part of the Pathworks scheme
> of things.  What is this?
> 
> Question #1: Is a separate media (diskette?) needed for the Mac to get it
> to boot or otherwise start communicating with the Pathworks s/w on the VAX? 
> If so, does anyone have a diskette I could just copy?  DEC's charging over
> $300 for media on this product.

    I don't know anything about the TEI program so I could be wrong on
    this, but I think the approx $300 dollar figure is for 
    
    	Media
    	Docs
    	and at least 1 client license (this is where I'm on thin ice
                                       because I don't know about the TEI 
                                       program)
    
    The PATHWORKS for Macintosh v1.1 kit (client) is a TK50 with over
    30,000 disk blocks on it.  Some how I don't really think you want over
    15 megabytes of data shipped to you on floppies (or maybe you do :-)
    
    This the client kit installs a the PATHWORKS for Macintosh client
    volume on your VMS system.  The Macintosh clients then connect to the
    server and run the installer script in the volume to install the bits
    over the network.  As far a I know there is no diskette needed for
    v1.1.
    
    Since the PATHWORKS for VMS (Macintosh) VAXshare file server uses
    AppleTalk as its transport and all Macintosh computers come shipped
    with AppleTalk and the AppleShare workstation client software, all
    Macnitosh systems are network ready.  All you need to supply is the
    wiring and hardware in the middle to connect things (either LocalTalk
    to Ethernet boxes or ethernet cards for your Mac, plus wiring).
    
> Currently the Mac's are running TCP/IP and doing it rather nicely.  I'd
> like my users to be able to continue to access other systems using TELNET,
> FTP, etc. after Pathworks is installed.  I'm told, however, that Pathworks
> for the Mac uses Decnet and/or Appletalk and can't use TCP/IP as a
> transport(?) layer.
>
> Question #2: Is this statement true?  That I cannot use TCP/IP to
> communicate between the Mac and the VAX Pathworks?  Even if it is, is there
> any way to use some TCP/IP package in parallel with Pathworks on the Mac to
> still provide TELNET and FTP capabilities?

    Half true.
    
    A Macintosh is not restricted to 1 network protocol.  It is more then
    happy to talk multiple protocols all at the same time (of course the
    more protocol stacks you have loaded at the same time, the more memory
    your Mac is going to consume, but the good news is that memory is cheap
    these days, and Macintosh systems know how to use additional memory
    with out hasseling the user, not like some PeeeeeCeeeee's I could
    mention :-)
    
    The transport used by PATHWORKS for Macintosh depends on what you want
    to do.
    
        The file server and print server use AppleTalk.
    
        MacX can use AppleTalk, DECnet, or TCP/IP (MacTCP included for just
        this purpose - get NCSA's TELNET package if you want to do other
        TCP/IP things).
    
        MacTerminal is suppled with CommToolBox tools to use DECnet's
        CTERM, LAT, or the Modem (with 3rd party CTB tools you can use
        other transports as well).
    
        DAL can use AppleTalk (I think it can also use DECnet, but I'm not
        positive).
    
        Mail for Macintosh can use AppleTalk or DECnet.
    
        DECnet's NetCopy uses DECnet (what else!)
    
> I don't know much about Appletalk protocols, but it appears, from reading
> the installation instructions, that I have to have the Decnet/Appletalk
> gateway running on the VAX in order to do much of anything else.

    The AppleTalk-DECnet gateway is used by several applications.  In may
    cases it is used so that Macs which can't speak anything else but
    AppleTalk (for example Macs wired on LocalTalk are more limited on the
    different protocols they can speak because of wire limitations (this is
    getting to be less and less of a problem over time because either
    fewer Macs are being put on LocalTalk, or more vendors are supplying
    LocalTalk to Ethernet routers which tunnel the desired protocol inside
    of AppleTalk when it is on the LocalTalk wire (but it is still speed
    restricted which is a fact of life for LocalTalk).
    
    Anyway, MacX will use the AppleTalk-DECnet gateway to remotely start
    sessions on VMS systems if you want it to speak AppleTalk.  This is
    because AppleTalk doesn't have a remote task invocation feature, so
    DECnet was used for this function and this function alone.  If you want
    MacX to speak DECnet, then it will use DECnet completely.  If MacX is
    using TCP/IP to a UNIX system then it will use the 'remexd' daemon to
    start the remote tasks.  To use TCP/IP on VMS you need to have the UCX
    software installed, and I'm not sure if this supports the 'remexd'
    daemon (and I know it hasn't been tested).  MacX using TCP/IP was
    intended for UNIX connections only - if you are able to get it to work
    with VMS, then more power to you.
    
> Question #3: How does Appletalk fit into the scheme of things here?  Does
> the Mac talk Appletalk, Pathworks on the VAX translates that to Decnet,
> rebroadcasts it, and is picked up by another VAX with Pathworks, where the
> disk/mail/print service is carried out?  Or does the Mac somehow send
> Decnet packets directly?  We don't have Appletalk currently running, BTW,
> so this seems like a lot of extra setup.

    The Mac talks the protocol it needs to do the job (Directly in most
    cases).  And except for the Rube Goldberg method MacX uses to start
    remote tasks over AppleTalk, protocols are generally used in a native
    mode.
    
    Some exceptions:  If you have the right LocalTalk to Ethernet router
    box (FASTPATH V, GatorBox, etc...), DECnet can be run on LocalTalk by
    tunneling over AppleTalk (DECnet packets sent to router box in an
    AppleTalk wrapper, router box strips away the wrapper and send/receives
    DECnet directly).
    
    There is a LAT gateway in v1.1 (software which will run on a Mac which
    has both LocalTalk and Ethernet connections) will do the same things
    for LAT communications over LocalTalk.
    
    Some 3rd parties will supply similar packages for TCP/IP.
    
> Last and final:
> 
> Question #4: Am I using the right product to provide these services for my
> users?  What I'd like is file and print service, mail service, an X server
> for the Mac, and some TCP/IP capability.  Pathworks is 4 out of 5, but is
> there something else that gives all of the above?
    
    Someone else will have to address this question, I don't really get out
    all that much to see what the rest of the world is doing.
    
    					Bob Harris
    					Digital Equipment Corporation