HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:54:09 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dep't., U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
In-reply-to: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu's message of 17 Nov 92 14:38:45 -0400

In article <1992Nov17.183845.15975@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes (quoting me):
>>I'm sure you can find counterexamples (maybe you *are* a
>>counterexample), but it seems to me that there is a pretty broad
>>USENET consensus (among the knowledgeable) that one should read the
>>appropriate documents and take a little time familiarizing oneself
>>with the conventions and procedures of USENET before posting,
>>particularly to administrative groups concerned with the net's
>>configuration.

>There is a difference between "one should read..." meaning that it's
>a good idea to read, and "one should read..." meaning that people who
>don't read should not be taken seriously when they speak.

Very true and a good point besides.  However, this would be most relevant
if I had discounted someone's ideas about physics, posted in sci.physics,
on the basis that he hadn't formatted his text for 80 columns.  What I
did was defend a tiny flame against someone who posted the question
"What's a CFV?"  The question was inappropriate, and the insult the
poster received was well-deserved.  (Whether it should have been
public is another matter.)

>The former does indeed have a broad consensus to it.  The latter,
>perhaps less so.  Appealing to a "broad consensus" for the latter,
>when the consensus supports only the former, is equivocation.

If that is what I had done, you'd be correct to say I equivocated (I
note that you sidestepped doing so directly).  However, if someone is
discussing the configuration of the USENET group hierarchy and
individual newsgroup charters (isn't that what news.groups is for?)
without having familiarized himself with really basic terminology,
then I would say a broad consensus that he "shouldn't be taken
seriously" on the subject *does* exist, at least among the
knowledgeable.

And, in the glass houses department (my own, that is), I note that
this has probably ceased to belong in news.groups.  Anyone for a
redirect?
--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky news.groups:22513 news.admin.policy:498
From: andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Andrew Hackard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Voting process
Date: 20 Nov 92 02:58:57 GMT
     <1992Nov14.182026.1314@metrosoft.com>
Followup-To: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>Sridhar.Venkataraman@launchpad.unc.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:

>> And to repeat what has been said over and over again... "Ignore RFDs and
>> CFVs at your own peril".
 
>This point has been made time and time again. Too bad that advice isn't  
>actually written anywhere that a new user is guaranteed to see it.

I want to state that I applaud Mr. Van Huizen's motives, though I
disagree with his solutions.  However, I'd like to point out some facts
about the net which make ANY guarantee a risky proposition.

The net is not a coherent whole.

What we loosely refer to as "the net", as though it were a single entity,
actually consists of umpty-ump sites worldwide, running UN*X, VMS,
MS-DOS, and a slew of other operating systems.  These sites run the gamut
from Cray-2's all the way down to a C-64 with a 10-meg hard drive.

Given all this, it's nigh onto impossible to set one standard for all
admins to uphold, since they may very well have policies set from On High
which tell them what to tell users.  There's no way to force all admins
to do anything -- you're talking about making everyone from Dave Lawrence
all the way down to the greenest FidoNet sysop adhere to precisely the
same rules.  It ain't a-gonna happen.

I firmly believe that most admins carry out their duties to the best of
their abilities, and are more than happy to answer every question that
comes their way.  I equally firmly believe that you can't make every
admin hand every user a gilt-edged annotated copy of the Guidelines.  By
and large, most users simply won't care, and the ones who do, by and
large, know to ask for help if they need it.  There ARE admins out there
who don't do a good job of helping their users -- but, conversely, there
are users who don't do everything within their own power to figure out
what is going on.

To summarize: You can't force admins to do anything.  Every admin is the
czar at his own site.  However, *most* (as in virtually all, IMO) admins
do everything they can to ease the way for their users.  The users have
to do their part, though; there are too many users per admin for the
admin to hold all of their hands.

(No, I'm not an admin, and if anyone cares to correct this, feel free.)

--
--Andrew Hackard                                 If I spoke for UT, this post
  andy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu                        would make even less sense.

"If we keep alienating those who are ignorant or meek, what are we
     becoming?"  
"Informed and assertive?"  -- Dave Hayes and Chip Salzenberg, in news.groups
Newsgroups: news.groups,misc.consumers.house
From: dave@dlb.com (Dave Buck)
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.home.automation
Followup-To: misc.consumers.house
Reply-To: dave@dlb.com (Dave Buck)
Organization: D.L.Buck & Associates, Inc.; San Jose, Calif.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:20:27 GMT

In article <BxnGHr.F9p@uunet.uu.net> CNTS12@email.mot.com (Mike Stevens) writes:
>I am inquiry regarding setting up a home automation user group.  I 
>periodically see information in consumers.house; however, that group takes 
>all issues as it relates to homes.
>
>Topics that relate to home automation:
>In home sound systems-nutone or other
>X-10 controlled homes
>In-home theater
>Home security
>Home automation in general
>Intergration of above systems in new and exsiting homes
>CEBus technology
>Smart House Technology
>Electronic House magazine exists for the current home automation user.
>I am interested in the above topics, any others.
>-- 
>| Mike Stevens                         | Internet: cnts12@email.comm.mot.com |
>| Motorola Central Systems Engineering | Voice:    708-576-8249              |
>| 1301 E. Algonquin Road-IL02 RM 0436  | FAX:      708-576-5640              |
>| Schaumburg, Illinois  60196  USA     |                                     |

I run a mailing list for these same topics, and presently have barely
over 200 subscribers. I don't believe there's sufficient interest to
justify a new news group, based on those numbers.

Those interested in subscribing should send mail to intelhouse-request@dlb.com,
with a single-line message:
subscribe

Many topics are archived; mail archive-server@dlb.com the single line:
help
(you can also do another line: send index)
-- 
Dave Buck   dave@dlb.com   {amdahl,ames,daver,netcomsv,sun,zygot}!dlb!dave
D. L. Buck and Associates, Inc.;   San Jose, California;    (408) 972-2825
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:20:16 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>I help, instruct and support the users _at_my_site_ (and no one else,
>unless I happen to feel generous).  But I _serve_ no one.

That is your problem.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful
than the sun."  "Why?", he was asked.  "Because at night we need the
light more."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:21:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.181240.13165@zip.eecs.umich.edu>  
huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) writes:
> I don't know how you could reasonably
> put together a coherent explanation of which groups ought to be
> included in the cross-posted RFD/CFV.

Well it seems at a minimum, that the groups that are absolutely affected  
need to be cross-posted to. The guidelines aren't specific about this. It  
appears that vote-takers do 'the right thing' here on their own, but there  
is no mechanism to ensure that they do. 

Chip Salzenberg's example RFD from 2 years back hilighted an interesting  
point. The format of it was quite clear. He referred to it as  
"state-of-the-art" two years ago and expressed that no one learned from  
his example. If the positive aspects of his format had been adopted  
directly into the guidelines, those aspects wouldn't have been dropped  
over time for lack of 'learning'.

> The main issue in this
> discussion (i.e. rec.music.synth) doesn't center around whether
> or not the RFDs/CFVs were posted to rec.music.synth -- the records
> show that they did indeed appear there.

Correct, but it was an interesting point that surfaced along the way. In  
general the guidelines seem a little loose for compicated votes. A  
vote-taker could argue that he/she followed the letter of the guidelines  
without even having cross-posted the article to the absolutely-affected  
groups. That didn't happen in this case, but it could.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Would you ALL like a demonstration? (was Re: Dave Hayes may be right)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:46:56 GMT

twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>Really? If I posted that "people in news.groups feel that if you see
>>a message of this form...that you should read it or risk losing your 
>>group name", that's deception?
>Yes.  About on the same level as pulling a malicious fire alarm.

I dunno. No one would be hurt or killed in the stampede. 

>Really?  What would really happen?  I think that people would flurry
>in a panic over to news.groups for a couple of days, and then calm
>down shortly and get back to business.

I don't know about that calm down part.

>Oh, and your name would take up more disk space in KILL files around
>the world than anyone else's.

Horrors! I'd better not do this or...(gasp) i'd be IGNORED!! :-)

You know, when I continually see people flaming about things that they
SHOULD have ignored (e.g. Bathroom Monitor Re-Dux), somehow KILL files
have lost any meaning they could have had. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   When you have been your own teacher for a time, you may be ready
                                   to find someone else who can teach you.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 06:05:26 GMT

In article <15013.9211211300@csparc2.scs.leeds.ac.uk> ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk writes:
>
>The attitude expressed by Ric K. makes me glad that I don't work at his
>site. There may be repetition in your job, but this is the fault of your
>job, not the people asking questions. If you don't like your job.....

"job"?  What do you mean, "job"?  Most of the people who have created
the current Usenet and the groups you so love to read and consider
sacred, aren't doing it as part of a "job".  They're not getting paid
for it, and certainly not by you.  So to talk about how they should or
should not do their "job" is absurd.

Oh, please note the "they" above.  While I am news administrator for one
site, I am first and foremost a user.  (I only took on the administrator
role because I was afraid no one else would and I'd lose my access.)
So, am I part of the news.groups cabal, or just a user who bothered
to learn something of the system in his own interest?

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Xref: sparky news.groups:22248 soc.culture.indian:37364 soc.culture.pakistan:16828 soc.culture.bangladesh:6033
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: Islam/sects (wasRe:CFV:soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya)
Followup-To: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
Date: 17 Nov 1992 20:50:09 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

Thank you for changing the title; I am directing followups to groups outside
of news.groups since this has no relavence to news.groups.


-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
From: news@griffin.itc.gu.edu.au
Subject: Test
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 04:54:13 GMT

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Hack job (humor) newz quiz
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 02:11:15 GMT

Comments to email on this hack job.

The CA DMV News posting quiz

Test your news skills (answer T or F).

Beginner (reader)
	Can deliberately (not accidentally) invoke mail, news, bbs, or notes.
	Can get out of said system cleanly (without issuing an interrupt).
	Might be able to read news.  Can't post or send mail
		(probably because it invokes a foreign editor).
	Blown away when .newsrc (or .notesrc) starts up with 2245 lines (e.g.).
	Can't understand strange symbols.
	Strictly a lurker.

Intermediate (user)
	Beyond the beginner stage.
	Can read news groups sequentially.
	Can post follow-ups.
	Capable of invoking the system help command.
	Incapable of skipping articles.
	Not necessarily capable of article or group searching.
	Selectively reads news groups.  Ignores the rest.
	Expects others to post and generate articles like a magazine.
	Does not understand flame wars.
	Recognizes smilies 8^) [I have glasses.], maybe makes ASCII graphics.
	Lurker, sometime poster.

Advanced (poster)
	Beyond the intermediate stage.
	Can read news groups or posts in any order (random access).
	Can skip news articles.
	Can search a news article or new group.
	Can unsubscribe/subscribe from news.groups at will.
	Understands the differences in terminology (e.g., doesn't freak out
		when seeing the words notesfile, BBS, or discussion group).
	Knows how to use Followup lines.
	Can use Kill files.
	Can understands and edits .newsrc, .notesrc, .signature, etc. files.
	May understand the news.hierarchy.
	Can set up FAQs.
	Understands flame wars.

System Admin ()
	Beyond the advanced poster stage.
	Can set up a news system.
	Can decipher UUCP Paths.
	Can clean a news system when the file system gets full.
	Understands (read and edit) headers.
	Knows where articles actually sit.
	Understands or can set up news gateways.
	Understands accounts like root, system, postmaster, etc.
	Can control flame wars. ( rm -r /usr/spool/news/fav.news.path 8^)
	Not without a sense of humor.
	Able to piece together and understand deliberately obscure FAQ postings.
	May know how to forge postings.
	May moderate a news.group.

Explain the initials DMV in this context?

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Getting information
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:21:25 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>>>My point is that if a LOT of other people tell you "you should have asked  
>>>someonse else", most people will stop being inquisitive after awhile.
>>No one who I'd respect would do so.
>[lame UNIX joke]

Obviously I was too terse.  What I meant was:

 No who I'd respect would stop being inquisitive just because some
 people say "you should have asked someone else."  Inquisitiveness
 is a vital part of the personality of any person I'd respect.

-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: RF(Informal)D: Standard RFD/CFV Format
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: HMC Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:19:31 GMT

In a prior article, Rob Strom (strom@watson.ibm.com) writes:

> But I don't accept the implication that improving the documentation is a
> fruitless endeavor because even something as flawless as the current
> documentation will always be misunderstood by some idiot.

I think the point was more that idiots will find a way to misunderstand
anything, and so we shouldn't let our decisions be guided by idiots. That
doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to reduce the level of idiocy on the net,
but it does mean that we shouldn't toss out the r.m.m.s vote because of
idiots. And that we shouldn't expect that we can revise the guidelines such
that there will be no need to worry about idiots in the future, since idiots
will always find a way.

Again: The important point is that ignorance (idiocy, if you like) shouldn't
be an excuse for invalidating properly executed procedures. The needs of the
ignorant (or the idiots) should perhaps be addressed, but the ignorant
should not be allowed to sabotage the decision-making process.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
several of us died of tuberculosis." -Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:37:46 GMT

peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>>                  One only fights what one thinks is real.
>There you go. Usenet isn't real in any sense that you can fight against.

Oh it can be made to be real. 

Besides, isn't that a clue that I think the elitism is real?

>To quote William Shattner: GET A LIFE.

I have one, thank you very much. :-)
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 18 Nov 92 02:05:46 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1992Nov12.000342.7207@metrosoft.com>, gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
 >In article <2B0003E2.32D3@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
 >> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
 >> >Please move on.
 >> 
 >> What a joke.  Move on, yourself.
 > 
 > It's difficult to so when people fall back on the same simple argument  
 > without supporting it with anything other than bullish retorts. 

Tell that to Dave Hayes who taken specious arguments to a new high. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:53:34 GMT

stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
>>I'm not here to force you to listen to me. If you don't think I have anything
>>to say, then don't listen. 8)
>Which is it Dave? With one face you claim we aren't listening to you,
>then with the other you tell us to stop listening.

Well, I use the face that asks people to listen to people who say that
there was nothing wrong whatsoever with the vote. The other face is
for people who have to make character judgments and personal attacks,
all in the name of getting me to shut up.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

           If you regret your gift - take it back.
Xref: sparky news.groups:22155 news.admin:8564
From: hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 23 Nov 92 08:47:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.By5v2y.1xJ.2
Reply-To: hill@norman.vi.ri.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Tom Holub writes

> This is incorrect.  All discussion related to new newsgroup creation
> should take place in news.groups.  Alan was posting a--let's spell it

> I'm sorry you don't like the Usenet guidelines, Rob, but they are the
> way they are for a reason.  If you have something to say about the
> content of Alan's proposal, you should speak up, but lay off the
> comments about his procedures; they are proper.
>  -Tom

Yep..I guess they are.  I don't have to agree with them.  The question is  
: does following proper procedure help or hurt most readers of  
rec.games.netrek?  I'll let you figure it out...

Rob
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.fantasy
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:31:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.150945.21494@eecs.nwu.edu> ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.040052.20420@u.washington.edu> hachiman@stein.u.washington.edu (matt) writes:
>>that kind of clumps around the Tolkein-Eddison-Howard-Eddings kind of stuff?  
>
>My reaction to the grouping of these names was close to nausea.
>Howard, with Tolkein?

As an aside, both are soundly on the fantasy side of SpecFic, just at different
corners of the genre.

Nonetheless, I agree that rec.arts.sf.* covers the fantasy genre quite well,
and any attempt to split fantasy out will generate far too much flaming to
be effective.


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |