From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: What Problem Is Supposed To Be Solved, Here? (Was: Dressed for Rape)
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:34:12 GMT
	<1i9o21INNguh@transfer.stratus.com> <9301042000.28@rmkhome.UUCP>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <9301042000.28@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
<In article <1i9o21INNguh@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
<>In article <9301021327.48@rmkhome.UUCP>, rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
<>> In article <1hvjpgINN1o3@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
<>> >In article <9212311212.23@rmkhome.UUCP>, rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:

<>> >Or can't pass a written test, or a shooting test, or can't get letters 
<>> >of recommendation from three other citizens, or doesn't belong to a
<>> >bona-fide sporting club ($100-$200/year).
<>
<>> These requirements have changed over the last decade.

<>Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, son.  I went through the
<>entire process I described no more than THREE MONTHS ago.

< And I went through the process in the late 70's.  It was a snap.

	Which shows simply that Tavares knows what the process
	entails and Kelly does not.

	Why, then, does Kelly bother to relate the following?

<   And before that I went through the process of getting an FID card when
<   they first issued them, since I owned a couple of rifles at the time.
<   Before the FID card, you didn't need anything to buy a rifle or ammo
<   except proof that you were over 21.

	So what? 100 years ago, you wouldn't have needed any paperwork
	at all....but what was done in the past isn't the subject,
	now is it?

<>> >My wife is stalled on her permit because all of the people she's known
<>> >for any length of time in the area are anti-gun.
<>
<>> That's life.
<>
<>Maybe her life.

<   What was her reason for getting a license for the protection of life and
<   property.  Business?  A substantiated attack?

	Maybe she reads the newspapers and is aware that violent
	attack isn't as rare in Massachusetts as it was 40 years
	ago?

<   >She considered asking our next-door neighbor for a character reference.
<   >He's well known in town; selectman for two terms, minister of two local
<   >churches for over a decade.  Mack Mitchell -- maybe you've heard of him,
<   >he's been in the news.  He's now in MCI Concord for six years on two 
<   >counts of rape of a minor.  But character references are so infallible,
<   >so I guess it wouldn't be reasonable to do without them.

<   Well, you have to play the game since the state makes the rules.

	Begging the question. The point is, what is the desired
	goal of these rules? 

<   I'm actually surprised, when I saw Stratus I thought maybe you lived in
<   Marlboro, where the police are very reluctant to even issue FID cards.
<   I would have thought that your town would be an easy town to get a
<   permit in.

<   >Wow, what an incredible asshole I must be to insist that the police 
<   >assume that citizens are innocent until they are proven guilty.  What 
<   >would America be like if that were, like, a general rule or something?

<   How would you have them do this if there were no licensing procedures
<   for guns?  

	Perhaps the police could arrest persons accused of committing
	criminal acts *after* the act has occurred?

	Does this concept seem too radical for Kelly?

<How do you screen out people who already have a criminal
<record?

	From what? From purchasing a firearm in general
	or from purchasing a firearm from a licensed dealer?

	The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms interviewed
	slightly over 900 convicted felons and found that over
	90% of them obtained firearms from "other" sources than
	buying from dealers.

	So, to answer the question: you don't, because people
	with criminal records generally do not buy their firearms
	from licensed dealers, they obtain them by other means.

<   >Don't ask me.  Ask your newspaper.  And demand an answer.  And turn on
<   >your bullshit alarm first.  Then come back and tell us.

<   The Framingham edition of the Middlesex News reports extensively on
<   the comings and goings of the police.

	Oh, please, no newspaper in this country reports every single
	arrest made by the police.

<   And if you believe the recently published statistics, you wife is in
<   the greatest amount of danger from you, and my SO is in the greatest
<   amount of danger from me.

	Which statistics would those be, please, and where were they
	published?

<  It's very sobering to look at the police news in the paper, and see the
<  multiple daily arrests for Domestic Violence.  Either women are reporting
<  it more than they used to, or a lot of men are taking out their frustrations
<  at home.

	"If it's in the newspaper, it must be true!"
					----Dudley DoRight of the Mounties
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns