From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Pro-choicers must condone infanticide
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: What's that?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 16:32:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.101123.21250@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.025558.14813@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec25.042943.4640@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec22.061712.28416@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Dec21.003824.21422@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>>>>>In article <1992Dec20.044415.25283@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>>>>>>In article <BzEy8s.7x8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cburian@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher J Burian) writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It is kind of funny how it's "okay" to yank a baby out of the womb piece
>>>>>>>by piece, yet it's "wrong" to let a newborn die a gentle death from
>>>>>>>hypothermia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The subject begs further reflection and dialogue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>And it would be nice if you tried to find some facts before the next
>>>>>>time you post.
>>>>>>Anybody who describes hypothermia as a gentle death is doing a fine
>>>>>>job of displaying a severe case of ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>>Then enlighten us, O Great One. Is the pain and gruesome violence of being
>>>>>hacked to bits comparable to slipping away into permanent hypothermic 
>>>>>unconsciousness? We thirst for knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>Hypothermia is not a gentle way to die. Ask anybody who has seen it
>>>>happen. 
>>>
>>>RELATIVELY speaking, though, compared to being "hacked to bits", is it not
>>>a gentle way to die?
>>>
>>That would depend entirely on the circumstances Kebbin.
>>If you're talking about a real, alive, sentient being being "hacked to
>>bits" then perhaps so. 
>
>Mark, you made a general statement about hypothermia being a non-gentle way
>to die. My only point is that death-by-hypothermia is NEVER less "gentle"
>than death-by-being-hacked-to-bits, which is the original context in which
>the word "gentle" was used. Do you or do you not agree with this point?
>
>In the case of an unconcious or non-sentient "victim", we can say that
Kebbie, I was responding to a general statement which claimed that
hypothermia is gentle death. It is not. The statement to which I
resonded did not claim it was relatively gentle, it claimed it was
gentle, period. Do try to learn the difference.

>both forms of killing are EQUALLY "gentle", of course. This observation
>is not inconsistent with my point.
>
>>If you are (and I must assume you are, since
>>this is talk.abortion...) talking about hypothermia vs some method of
>>abortion, then I would say the "hacked to bits" is gentler. For the
>>simple reason that the fetus is dead before it is "hacked to bits". It
>>can't feel anything Kebbin. Not true of the person who is freezing to
>>death.
>
>How is the fetus killed prior to the "hacking", Mark?
>
Can you say drugs Kebbin? I knew you could...

>>>>As for the "pain and gruesome violence" bit , can you show me
>>>>any people who have been so killed? I mean, other the Jeff Dalhmers
>>>>victims. 
>>>
>>>I decline to quibble over "personhood", Cochran. It is true, however, that 
>>>some abortion methods (D&C? D&E?) involve, in layperson's terms,
>>>"hacking to bits", do they not? That is my only point here.
>>>
>>Given that the fetus is neither alive at that point, nor capable of
>>feeling, what is your problem with this method?
>
>Who said I had a problem with it? I just simply disagreed with your 
>statement that hypothermia was a non-gentle way to die. It may be non-gentle
>compared to, say, dying in one's sleep, but in the original context in which
>"gentle" was used -- being hacked to bits -- I'd say hypothermia was 
>undeniably "gentle"...
>
Then feel free to go sleep in the snow. The original context had
nothign to do with relative gentleness Kebbie. Looks like your brain
is in melt down again.

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc