From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
Subject: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 29 Dec 1992 00:09 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec28.212413.5974@mercury.unt.edu>, gene@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Dr. Gene De Lisa) writes...
>In article <fWMUmqa@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <BzGp8w.J74@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> 
>>ivaliote@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Lotus ) writes:


>>>The whole point is the term 'pagan' is, I believe how Christians 
>>>charcterized non-believers. 

True.  See below.

>>>For a person to call themselves pagan is to, at best, engage in
>>>mocking Christians (not that I have any problem with that, mind you.)  

No religion should be mocked.  It is a very personal and valid path for the
practitioner.  All religions are but different paths to the same end.  Also
calling myself what I am...a non-Christian...is not engaging in mocking
anybody.  If they wish to perceive it that way, there is nothing I can
do about that.  (Hell, from my point of view they should feel honored
that I trust them enough to admit my secrets, though after alt.pagan who
knows just how secret it is anymore. 8-))


>>>I just think it is better to use, oh, I dunno, the actual NAME of your 
>>>faith system, if it has one, and if it doesn't, then why throw a 
>>>silly Christianity-derived term on there?  

First, it is not a silly Christianity-derived term.  It has come to mean
anyone one who is not Christian, which is what I am.  I am speaking the
truth.  And BTW, using that argument one could say Christian is a silly
Pagan-derived term.  Why not use the actual NAME of your faith system, like
Catholic, Baptist, etc.  All "christian" means is that they believe that
Jesus is the Messiah.  It tells us nothing of their system.  Just as "pagan"
means that they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah.  It also means that
they don't derive their religion from the Judeo-Christian-Moslem base.
Remember that neither Hindu nor Buddism are derived from the 
Judeo-Christian-Moslem base.  Technically they are pagan also.

>>>I find the word is used largely for attention-getting and 
>>>pretense.

Excuse me?....

I find that statement insulting, to me and my religion.

Perhaps you find yourself here on alt.PAGAN to get attention?  And what 
about those people "witnessing about Christ"?  I guess they do it with
no pretense and expect to not get any attention.

NOT!


>>>
>>Aren't you being Christo-centric here? There are pagan Christians by the
>>way. It is true that many Christians use the word pagan in a derogatory

It is impossible for there to be pagan christians.  However there can be
pagan-positive christians.  It means that they believe Jesus is the Messiah,
but that they do not adhere strictly to the dogma that "Christianity" is the
one true faith.  There are also those people who worship both religions.
This is what I assume you are referring to.  I have found that these
people cling to Christianity because it still holds something for them.
They are usually raised with it.  Sometimes it is hard to let go.  Because
most pagans can see elements of the god or goddess in all religious figures
it makes it easier.  

>>
>[lines deleted]
> 
>It's time for some facts.
> 
> 
>Pagan is the term that early xians used in a derogatory sense for non-xians.
>You cannot be a xian pagan any more than you can be a non-xian xian!
> 
>Being a pagan does not mean that you follow x,y,and z but that you don't
>believe in the xian, islamic or jewish god. Period.
> 
> 

Thank you.

>btw., it really doesn't matter if you agree with this definition.
>You don't even have to agree what "red" is a color either.

What I can't understand is WHY all the argument?  In order to facilitate
communication we need to agree to some basic definitions.  However
we sit here and argue over pedantic little points about words which
already have definitions!

Go study some history from a Medievalist Historian, particularly one who
specializes in the early or high middle ages.  I was lucky enough to
get one who had such a specialty, particularly in the early part, and
was studying the religious aspects of the time and the perceptions of
the people of the time and how it all fits together.  It's really
fascinating to study from a scholarly point of view. (Though I haven't
done that in quite a while...there are only so many hours in a day...)
Unfortunately when I studied it I was still searching for my path and
didn't have my current religious point of view.  Or maybe that is fortunate
for the study, it wasn't tainted by religious belief.

In any case...FACE THE FACTS....

The words "pagan" and "heathen" became associated with non-christianity
because the people in the countryside were the last to be converted, if
at all.  It was the Christians that made this association.  Once again
I wish to point people to Bede's "History of the English Church and people".
It is an excellent "photograph" of the process used to spread Christianity
in the early centuries.  

Given this, can we agree that ... When on alt.pagan... we refer to pagans as
"all those who worship a religion not founded upon the 
Judeo-Christian-Moslem base"?  How you define it outside of this news group
is up to you.


Tammy the Pagan

P.S. You never said what people should called themselves if their religious
belief doesn't have a name.  If they can't call themselves pagan without
being called pretensious and they don't have a specific name...then what
do they do.

Xtian: So what religion do you follow? (expecting answer of Xtian sect)

Me: I'm a "non-christian-with-no-name-for-what-I-believe-in-but-it-is-based-on-
the-old-nature-religions-of-europe".


Xref: sparky talk.religion.misc:24595 alt.pagan:14542