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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:43:25 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject:      Who owns the text
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Steve--

There is a distinction to be made -- when discussing who owns the text once
it is published -- between the text itself and a printed example of it.
Mostly, our discussion has centered on the latter.  Of course there are no
laws against the defacement, disfigurement, or destruction of books that are
one's "property."  But there are plenty of legal sanctions against publishers
who sell an author's words without consulting her, receiving permission, and
agreeing on a share of the profit.  Perhaps there are legal sanctions against
a publisher altering the text as the author wrote it, "once it has been
written," before publishing it under his name.

Writing in the margins does not alter the author's text a whit.  I just don't
like it.

David Loftus
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:57:05 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject: Re: Marginalia
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Fanatic Crusaders, hell.  Letters to the editor in the smaller rural
newspapers here in Oregon, whether inveighing against abortion or in support
of the recent Measure 9, sometimes say the Good Book is all you need, why
own any others?
From: STU_DEMAGILL@JMUVAX.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: HEROINES
Date: 6 Nov 92 03:15:41 GMT
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From the genre of American Naturalism a possible example is _Mcteague_ by
Frank Norris, although I don't know if Trina can be called a heroine in every
sense of the word.  However she dies quite nicely.
David Magill
James Madison University
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:00:00 EDT
From:         MJOSEPH@ZODIAC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Italo Calvino

I thought cosmicomics and t-zero were works of great ingenuity and delicacy
and I've known other readers, scientists among them, who did too. Nonetheless,
the Calvino titles I admire most are the two he completed last, Mr. Palomar,
and Marcovaldo. I don't think the conventional comparison with Borges ought
to imply Calvino was a lesser Borges. I believe Calvino was possible without
Borges. I think he's more consistently lucid (for which William Weaver, his
translator, deserves some credit), more effortlessly comical and a better
story teller. Each cultivated his own kind of magical realism and at a greater
remove, each from the other, than the comparison points out. The Lem comparison
intrigues me. Does it hold up for the later Calvino also?


MJoseph
Rutgers
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Posted-Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 16:46:12 EST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:46:12 EST
From:         "(MM)" <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      thousands upon thousands
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I don't want to get us back onto speedreading, but I fiddled with pen and paper
for a minute and I just don't get it: 21,500?
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:09:33 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      The Lost Ones, Installment 5 (or thereabouts)

        _The Lost Ones_ has been on hold for a while (too busy here to type
it in) but here's a little more, so it doesn't get forgotten altogether.

(p. 14)  Fourthly those who do not search or non-serarchers sitting against the
wall in the attitude which wrung from Dante one of his rare wan smiles.  By
non-searchers and despite the abyss to which this leads it is finally impos-
sible to understand other than ex-searchers.  To rid this notion of some of its
virulence one has only to suppose the need to search no less resurrectable than
that of the ladder and those eyes to all appearances forever cast down or closed
possessed of the strange power suddenly to kindle again before passing face and
body.  But enough will always subsist to spell for this little people the ex-
tinction soon or late of its last remaining fires.  A languishing happily unper-
ceived because of its slowness and the resurgences that make up for it in part
and the inattention of those concerned dazed by the passion preying upon them
still or by the state of languor into which they are imperceptibly fallen.  And
far from being able to imagine their last state when every body will be still
and every eye vacant they will come to it unwitting and be so unawares.  Then
light and climate will be changed in a way impossible to foretell.  But the
former may be imagined extinguished as purposeless and the latter fixed not
far from freezing point.  In cold darkness motionless flesh.  So much roughly
speaking for these bodies seen from a certain angle and for this notion and
its consequences if it is maintained.


        A rather biblical passage, with its references to Dante, the abyss,
resurrection, and Beckett's version of an apocalypse:  Not a bang, or even
with a whimper, but with total apathy.  No one will even notice the end.
        What was the attitude which wrung from Dante one of his rare wan smiles?
I'll dig out my _Inferno_ and see if I can find it (but forget it if it's in
_Paradiso_).
        For the first time Beckett is considering the passage of time.  Earlier
his descriptions were essentially timeless: this is what it's like now.  Here
he discusses what it might be like.  I think this is also the first time there
is evidence that the abode is actually responsive to the inhabitants, which has
interesting implications.  If the lights will turn off, and the temperature
cease fluctuating, when people stop searching, then presumably the search is
responsible for the fluctuations described earlier.

        I hope everybody hasn't completely lost interest in Beckett by now.
If so let me know, I'll drop this thread (perhaps with one or two sarcastic
comments about attention spans).
        Ian
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:22:07 EST
From:         "(Robert F. O'Connor)" <ocoreng@FAC.ANU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: long books...
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

YAY PENGUINS . . . I have toooo many, esp Classics.  The worst thing about read-
ing undergrad notes, tho', is having to admit to yourself that you were once
that naive!
ROC
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Posted-Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 12:54:31 EST
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 12:54:31 EST
From:         "(MM)" <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      heroines
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I have been wondering why the solution could not be simply to use "hero"
for both male and female characters. I notice that one definition of Hero
is a priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos.. If there is nothing in the derivation
of the word that ties it to one sex, why not simply drop the usage of heroine
and begin using hero in both cases. No need at all to say female hero. Seems
to me like a usage which might fairly easily take over. Only repeated usage
will do the trick, but what's inherently to keep hero from references to
females? Maybe I'm overlooking something, but the best solution seems here
to be the simplest one.

Have you read "To Room 19?"  I asked if anyone had read this story a couple
of weeks ago when we were talking about women's achievement in literature
being qualified by traditional domestic arrangements. I have always enjoyed
the story because I have never been able to solve its ambiguities.

Michael McColl
From: FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU (Tom Frenkel)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Spoilers (was: Heroines)
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:55:14 GMT
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Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Regarding the recent request for heroines who expire at the end
of their novels...

Shouldn't there be some way to protect people who don't want
their enjoyment of a book spoiled by knowing the ending?  I've
already had one major novel compromised by finding out too much
about it on this list.

If I may suggest, how about putting *** SPOILERS AHEAD *** on
the first screen of one's message, and putting the "spoiling"
material on the second screen, which might be scrolled to if one
so desires?

    Tom Frenkel (frenkel@cpmail-am.cis.columbia.edu)
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:50:14 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Canadian Authors - A Summary

        . . .if it's not too late to post an adendum to te list of Canadian
books - Michael Ondaatje's latest (_The English Patient_) has aroused wde-
spread admiration; as has Janet Turner Hospital's latest (_The Last Magician_).
Although I have not read either of these, I recently heard anauthor's reading f
   them and they arenow very high on my to-read list.
        Ian
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:34:22 CST
From:         RBLEILER@PRIME.MHSL.UAB.EDU
Subject:      Number of books owned
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.bitnet

I suspect I have between 3,000 and 3,500 books in my personal accumulation.  The
majority of these are science fiction, fantasy, and mysteries; and I collect
the histories, bibliographies, and critiques of these genres.  A lot of the
sf and f are signed:  I don't consider an author's signature as a defacement
but, rather, as an enhancement of its sentimental and actual value.  It is
proof that the author _saw_ and _handled_ the book, if only for a brief
while.  And if you have presented the book to the author for his/her auto-
graph (as I have done many times), the autograph is a tangible reminder of
the meeting.

Richard Bleiler
RBleiler@prime.mhsl.uab.edu
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:01:07 CST
From:         steve harris <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>

Anybody care to discuss hypertext?  I don't have much time at the moment
but anyways: in it's current state I don't think much of hypertext.  I
can't imagine actually sitting at a computer terminal reading WAR AND PEACE.
And downloading and printing defeats the purpose, doesn't it?  Computers
and computer graphics will have to at least approach the esthetics of
fine printing before I'll be converted.

steve harris
spam@tamvm1
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:16:10 -0600
From:         "(GALLAGHER, PATRICIA E.)" <PGALLAGH@LIFE.JSC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      HEROINES
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Some heroines that die at the end:

	Tess of the D'Urbervilles (Hardy)
	Cordelia (King Lear)
	Madame Bovary (Flaubert)
	Hedda Gabler (Ibsen)

Those are just off the top of my head. If you would like me to look further,
please feel free to ask

Pat Gallagher
PGALLAGH@life.jsc.nasa.gov
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 10:15:04 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject:      Re: Re[2]: taking notes
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

This question of how large a collection of books one has is more complicated
for me.  When I lived in Boston, I had hundreds upon hundreds, feeding
constantly at the incredible array of used and new book stores.  (Ian, how
do you get "new" copies of old, out-of-print gems so you can be "the first
to handle it"?)  When I decided to cross the continent back to Oregon I had
to figure out how to get rid of many of them, because I didn't relish the
cost of moving or storage.  But I did it.  Now I'm more cautious about what
I buy (though voracious in what I read out of various libraries), because
I still feel wary about having my flexibility, my potential for responding
quickly to new, unforeseen opportunities, to be narrowed by the weight of
possessions -- books among them.  When it comes down to choosing between
lots of cheap books that would be easy to find again in a bookstore or
library, versus the life I want to live, bibliomania must give way.  I don't
live just to read.

David Loftus
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:25:26 EST
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From:         "Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD" <VIAEM105@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: oh, yes, Galileo

From:    Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD
I don't know about the other scientists, but I do know that Galileo had some
of the clergy convinced, in particular a young cardinal named Orsini. Galileo
wrote a letter to Orsini explaining his theory of the tides, which was
supposed to prove the movement of the earth. But when Orsini brought the
matter u p with the Pope, it was the last straw, because the Pope had been
hearing too much of the other side of the debate. I think the trial was the
next day. The funniest thing about all of this for us is that Galileo's claim
that the earth moves was absolutely correct, but his means of proving (which
is actually what was banned) really was wrong. His theory was that the earth's
movement around the sun could be discerned by the tides, which were actually a
great "sloshing", like water in a glass moved back and forth. His rhetoric and
his logic weresound, but the evidence sounds really funny to us now.One of
Galileo's contemp oraries had the moon theory of the tides right, but for
astrological reasons, not scientific ones. I think this was Campenalla. sp?
Anybody read his book--City of the Sun?
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:54:50 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject:      Re: Bleak House
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Other big fat books off the top of my head, ROC....  What about Barth?
Does "Giles Goat Boy," "The Sot-Weed Factor," or "Letters" qualify -- either
in size or interest?
From: tempress@astro.ocis.temple.edu (TEMPLE UNIV PRESS)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: how do i subscribe to this list?
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:48:07 GMT
Organization: Temple University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

please reply for the way to subscribe to your list literary.


n
n
					Thank you
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: Derrida
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:07:44 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <01GQWYLXL1LU94E66N@ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU>, S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET writes:
> I didn't have the chance to respond to everyone who commented on Derrida,
> but was impressed with the fact that several folks said that they admired
> Derrida as a writer *despite* the fact that they had been prejudiced against
> him before reading his work.  The thing that alarms me is that such a
> prejudicial mechanism would be so firmly in place.  When I began studying
> Derrida in '85, most professors at my school (U of Oregon) seemed to
> regard him as a minor annoyance rather than as a threat to Western civ.
> I was also lucky to study with several very able profs who were
> sympathetic to his work.  If anyone is interested in relating precisely how
> they were prejudiced against Derrida before actually reading him, I would
> be very interested in hearing about it.

I'm a linguist and looked into Derrida about 1985 also; I expected to
find him unknowledgable about linguistics (the Deconstructionists
constantly mention linguistics and Saussure but nothing they say about
either is remotely comprehensible to people in linguistics--the
discipline that Saussure founded (in its modern guise)).

So I mainly looked at _Grammatology_ and found that he did his
homework very well, except for a habit of citing nearly all French
writers on the subject.  I learn also now that (generally speaking)
the whole conception of deconstruction can be approached via the
speech act theory of Austin & Searle, an area which *is* part of
current linguistics (in fact I teach it).

Baffling to linguists was his claim that writing is basic.  However,
my interpretation of what he is saying in G about writing is that
language is *as an object of inquiry* always writing.  This one cannot
disagree with (with the possible exception of the Indic tradition of
analyzing Sanskrit orally, but even that may ultimately be based on
writing; that is, on script).  I suspect my fellow linguists would see
this interpretation as unduly generous.

You might be interested to know that early on I also had the notion
(which I have since seen in print) that Deconstructionism would make a
fine tool with which orthodox religions might demolish "secular
humanism" leaving the way open for a religious renaissance.  (There is
a lot of talk about God in _Margins_ and elsewhere; who knows what he
means?  I don't... as long as he talks about language I think I can
interpret him, but...)
-- 
-Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> {Sometimes you have to look reality straight
 OPINIONS ARE MY OWN            {in the eye, and deny it. - G. Keillor
From: djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Quote of the Day
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:35:09 GMT
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I remember whenever unexpected company would ring our doorbell, my mother just
became a BLUR, she just ... all of us just raced from room to room, just
shoveling up stuff and hurling it into closets and slamming the door, pushing
things under beds.  We'd shove the dog down the basement stairs -- always
smelled bad -- and close the door to all the bedrooms.  Bedrooms were like
SWAMPS.  Go to the door, and we'd open it and we would feign pleasure at their
being there:  "Oh!  Come on in!  Great to see you!"  And this was in Minnesota,
they would say, "We just drove by, we can't really stop;  we should have called
but we didn't, we just sort of stopped in, see if you were here, we can't
really stay, just a coupla minutes."  So they would come in for two or three
hours, and we would guide them carefully through this route of closed doors.
They would take off their coats, we'd say, "Not there in that closet, don't
... we'll take those."  Bring 'em into the living room and feel down behind
the cushion on the sofa, pick up a couple banana peels and some old socks,
some old celery back in there.  They would sit down and my mother would say,
"Can I get you some coffee?"  They'd say, "Nah, don't go to any trouble for
us."  So she'd go in to make a pot of coffee.  And as she passed me there in
the hall, she'd whisper, "Go up and clean the bathroom!"

That's the sort of philosophy I believe in.  It's what I grew up with.  I look
back on it now and I realize that we were artists.  We were putting on a show
for people.  We were trying to show them a neat home.  I believe in that.  I
believe in pretense.  I believe in elegance and glamour.  And I believe that
sometimes you just have to look reality in the eye and DENY IT.
                                                     -- Garrison Keillor
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:08:25 -0800
From:         djl@MAILHOST.PP.PDX.EDU
Subject:      Quote of the Day
Comments: To: WRITERS@NDSUVM1.BITNET

Psychology doesn't interest me.  It claims to reveal the flow of our thoughts
and emotions;  its efforts are contrary to what I know;  it tries to explain a
mystery.  The only mystery is the world.  Psychology concerns itself with false
mysteries.                                    -- Rene Magritte
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:39:00 EDT
From:         TURZYNSKI@ZODIAC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Italo Calvino

David,

I have enjoyed everything I have read by Calvino, including *Castle.*
Try *Cosmic Comics*--see if that one will give you a better grip on
*Castle.*  Can't think of any criticism offhand.

Linda
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:57:39 CST
From:         steve <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: hypertext

RE: Hypertext

Exactly what Naomi says.
From: PRIMATE@BROWNVM.BITNET (Judith E. Schrier)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: Meals in Literature
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:38:06 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>From:         MW <GS0383@SPRINGB.BITNET>
>
>Ever since I was a kid and read _Heidi_ I have loved to eat plain cheese on a
>piece of bread. Heidi's grandfather got me started.

And drink milk from a bowl!

judith
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:35:18 -0500
From:         STU_CDHERBER@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Italo Calvino

Another vote for Cosmicomics.  I read it in a fiction class as an undergraduate
and enjoyed it immensely.  -Deming
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 14:16:20 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      heroines, heros, and protagonists

        Protagonist would e better word than hero or heroine - agreed, it
doesn't have same moral overtones, but that is probably a bonus:  It's rare
in modern fcton (short of Westerns and the lower quality fantasies) to have
an unambiguous hero/ine, so I suspect that most people would have at least
implied quotation marks around the word.  Unfortunate that (again
) the new-and-improved word has more syllables. . . it's hard enough to
avoid jargon as it is.
        Ian
p.s. I second the vote of thanks to the quotes of the day
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