Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,alt.birthright
Subject: Re: Don't just whine about media bias. Do something!
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 13:12:18 GMT
 <adams.717777688@spssig> <1992Sep29.182233.2770@spectrum.xerox.com>
Organization: SPSS Inc.



Ron, please word-wrap your stuff at 75 or so characters....makes life a LOT
easier...thanx.

rgoers@gumdrop.Xerox.COM (Ron Goers) writes:

>In article <adams.717777688@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>rgoers@gumdrop.Xerox.COM (Ron Goers) writes:
>>
>>>In article <adams.717438740@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>>chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <syl.717230669@bcserv> syl@bcserv.wustl.edu (Syl the Wallydraigle) writes:
>>>>>>chaneysa@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Official Astro Boy Virus expert)  writes:
>>>
>>
>>>True! I'm pro-choice. Yes, I agree that a woman should have a choice, and 
>>>she DOES!  She can choose to get pregnant, or not to.  Her so-called right 
>>>to choice, should however, disappear as soon as it involves another human 
>>>being.
>>"Sex" == "consent to prgnancy" eh?  Sorry, but that doesn't work.  What
>>about cases of rape and/or incest?  That woman has NO choice as to whether
>>or not she becomes preganant.
>
>Would you support a ban on abortion for ALL cases which do NOT involve rape or
>incest?
No.  There are other reasons...saving the life of the mother is one...

>(Don't cry rape/incest to me, that is a favorite of pro-aborts, when in fact 
>less than 1% of abortions performed are done for these reasons.)
1. I'm not pro-abortion
2. I don't care if it's 1 in a million, it's still necessary as an option
   for that one victim.  Just as saving a woman's life.

>>And for that matter, assume for a moment that a woman is on the pill, uses
>>a diaphragm, spermicide and the man uses a condom with nonoxyl-9.  She
>>gets pregant.  I hardly think she CONSENTED to pregancy...(Granted this is
>>perhaps a stretch, but I wanted to make the point).
>
>... stretch it a little further, have her use a know effective method ...
>
>This may seem foreign to you, but it falls under the choice category.  
>"A woman does not have sex, and so she doesn't get pregnant!"  
Guess what?  You can have sex without a chance of conceiving!  Sex is NOT
'penis enters vagina'.  That is ONE kind of sex...(with multiple options on
position, etc).  

>Let's face it, the ONLY fail-safe birth control known is abstainence.  
>If 'she' chooses to use a form which is less reliable, that's her fault.
So you wish to punish women for having sex?  How wonderful.  Why do you
feel the need to insist that sex only happen when procreation is desired or
acceptable?  Hmm?

>If you want to hear music, you've got to pay the piper!  
Not so.  Again, your definition of sex is a bit warped, and certainly
doesn't apply to non-coital sex.  And why does a woman have to consent to
the possiblity of pregnancy, and agree to carry to term in order to have
sex?  Sex has OTHER uses than simple conception.  Pleasure, expression of
love, etc.

>It is sad that abortion (in 98% of reported cases) is used as birth control 
>because the woman did not want to use an effective method of birth control.
No, not so.  The pill is very effective.  You just don't want any women to
have sex unless they agree to carry to term.

>Why should the baby suffer for her stupid decision?  
Nothing 'stupid' about it.  She wanted to engage in sex.  She did NOT want
to conceieve.

>Many babies could live at the age they are aborted.
Now many 22+ week gestation abortions?  I'll give you the benefit of 22
weeks instead of the more usual 24...

>That's sad, and there is no excuse, since there is a method of birth control 
>available which is 100% effective.
Sure.  But again, you insist that women agree to the possibility of
conception every time they have coital sex.  That's pretty fascistic....

>In regard to fetus/baby;

>I see our views on life and death differ greatly.  When my youngest was 
>born (over six weeks early), I got a first-hand look at a neo-natal intensive 
>care unit.  It's real hard to look at all the premature babies and realize 
>that they are safe only because they are outside their mother's bodies.  I 
>can't support killing any living baby for any reason!  I'll leave it at that, 
>and "agree to disagree" with you.
I am NOT supporting killing any living baby.  In fact, I don't like the
idea of abortion at all, I just don't think I should impose my views on
this issue on women who are in a position I can never, ever be in...
I will certainly give advice, support, and any help I could to convince the
woman to carry to term...but in the end, it's HER decision.

>I enjoy sex as much as the next person!  And no, I don't confuse it with 
>intent to reproduce.  You see, after I had my third child (well, not me, but 
>my wife had her) not wanting to have any more, I sought out a reliable source 
>of birth control to be sure there weren't any more little monsters added to my
>immediate family.  I visited Dr. chop-it-and-tie-knots-in-it an presto! ... 
>it's been over two years of worry-free and wonderful sex.  So, do you still 
>think I confuse sex with the intent to reproduce?
Yep.  You are saying that the choices are as follows:

1. No sex
2. Sterilization (which can fail!)
3. Agreement to carry to term any conception.

Option 2 is unacceptable to anyone who in the future wants children.

Option 1 is unacceptable to a young married couple that cannot yet afford
to have children.

Option 3 is not my (nor your) decision to make, nor should it be forced on
anyone.

>Responsible adults make responsible decisions!  Why should I condone an "easy 
>way out" for the irresponsible ones?
In at least some instances, abortion *IS* a responsible decision.  And
having seen the effects of abortion (mental/emotional) on someone who was very 
close to me, I'd hardly say that she took the 'easy way out.'

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.abortion