HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu (Ted Krueger)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Original sin
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:55:35 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson AZ

In article <Nov.6.01.22.40.1992.5216@geneva.rutgers.edu> I2LY@cornella.cit.cornell.edu writes:

>(The command to multiply and fill the earth may be the only one we
>have unquestionably obeyed, perhaps taken a bit too literally!)
>     Fiona

Actually, this is not at all true.  If all of the people in the earth 
were given 2000 sq ft to live on, in one-half of the state of Texas, 
and the other half of the state given to businesses, factories, schools 
and entertainment (everyone would fit, run the numbers) we would have 
the entire rest of the surface of the earth to grow food upon.  The 
earth is nearly empty of humans!

Ted
-- 
            

krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Spousal Abuse
Date: 20 Nov 92 07:05:04 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha


 I have gone over the subject of spousal abuse with a great many
people. I have been told that a person is never to leave their
spouse no matter what. I have been told you may leave any time and
Jesus will just forgive you.
Jesus did not intend for anyone to be anyones punching bag. God said
that one may leave a marriage in the case of immorality. 
I have been lectured that the latter statement meant in cases if
adultery. I disagree. I believe that immorality reaches into beatings
(unless you feel beating your spouse is moral)
Biblical scripture aside Jesus wants us to grow in him and produce the
fruits of salvation. I do not believe this is likely when someone gets
beaten regularly.
What about the devistation in the life of the young child? It is not
a good witness to let this child go through the trauma of seeing his
mother/father(it does happen) get beaten.
Jesus's grace is not a rug to walk on carelessly but if it is a sin
to seperate yourself from such a situation,Jesus WILL forgive you.

-- 
 "Is doggie heaven kitty hell?" Stephanie phoenix(age 6)
 "God is the oldest person around and has no age" Me
 "How does teflon stick to a skillet when nothing sticks to teflon?"
 "Let God instruct them on what a christian really is..."Mike Warnke

[We've had discussions about this a number of times in the past.  I
believe most of our readers believe that some sort of separation is
justified, if not mandatory, for a range of abuse.  The primary issue
is with divorce, and even there there are many people who believe that
abuse of all kinds can be a basis for divorce.  It sounds to me like
what you are hearing is not typical of opinion here.  --clh]
From: Deon.Strydom@f1.n7104.z5.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Liberal/New Age Religion (Was: Santeria and animal-sacrifice)
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:56:46 GMT

In a message of <Nov 12 07:48>, Murray Altheim (5:7104/2) wrote to All:

 MA> I find it ironic that such a reasonable and well-thought out 
 MA> response falls into the same trap I see in many of the posts on this 
 MA> board, and in the Christian community in general.

 MA> In expressing the fear that "Catholics, liberals, or (heaven 
 MA> forbid) Moslems" take over the "Department of Religious Political 
 MA> Correctness" you assume rightly that no department of its kind COULD exist 
 MA> in a country that purports religious freedom. 

Hi Murray, 
Here in South Africa there is at the moment much discussion on freedom
and a bill of rights.  One of the ideas is to have a section on
religious freedom in the proposed bill of rights.  Unfortunately, in
the first draft that went public just such a department as you suggest
is impossible, was put forward!

The actual wording of the particular point sounded quite innocent:
=========================================================================
3  A formal link should exist between religions and the state
3.1 To facilitate the implementation of this declaration and to
    act as a formal link between religions and the state, an in-
    dependent interfaith advisory body should be established
3.2 Members of this body shall enjoy good standing within their
    own religions, and be commited to the interfaith movement
3.3 The body shall be appointed by the Human Rights Commission in
    consultation with the major religions of South Africa
=========================================================================

BUT, one of the tasks of this proposed commision was to formally
recognize religions.  A religion couldn't operate under the religious
freedom part of the bill of rights without being recognised.  Other
things that were put forward (over which such a commision would keep
an eye) is that there should be no discrimina tion between sexes - how
would this influence religions (like Judaism, much of christianity,
Islam) where the women doesn't play the same roll as men?

There's much more in the document than this, but the fact is that such
a commission/department isn't as IMPOSSIBLE as we'd like to think.

This story at least have a happy ending on this subject.  After much
comment, the body busy with the proposed religious freedom document
dropped this clause in the last draft that's circulated!

Groetnis (=cheers)
Deon
From: gslade@nowhere.uucp (Greg Slade)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Need Christian Jokes...
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:49:03 GMT
Organization: Godcorp

In article <Nov.10.02.10.21.1992.12496@geneva.rutgers.edu> rphroy!hydra!hamilton@uunet.uu.net (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50) writes:

>There's also a magazine called The Wittenburg Door which publishes Christian
>Humor, but I don't know how to make contact with them. Anyone else know?


The Door (formerly the Wittenburg Door) is funny -- at least sometimes --
but it's not really a "joke" magazine.  It's more satire.  And, like a lot
of jokers on usenet, they think they're a lot funnier than they really are.
There are occasionally very funny bits, but there are also a lot of nasty
digs which can get pretty small-minded at times.  The publishers are called
Youth Specialties (the same people who publish the IDEAS books), and as I
recall, they used to be in El Cajon, CA.  (I dropped my subscription a while
back when the laugh/dig ration dropped too low for me.)
From: conan@wish-bone.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Taize query
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:16:11 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In article <Nov.17.03.19.14.1992.26202@geneva.rutgers.edu> S.Courtenage@cs.ucl.ac.uk (SA Courtenage) writes:

>I would like to know how I can apply to go to this Christian retreat
>in France. Does anyone have an address for Taize that I can write to?

In 1984 I went to Taize and literally just showed up.  They did not seem
to mind and had procedures in place to deal with people who dropped in.
(However, this was in late November--they are much busier in the summer.)

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
From: A10035@email.mot.com (Scott Lindsey)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Nudity - Why be ashamed?
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:55:51 GMT
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector

In article <Nov.13.02.11.37.1992.19184@geneva.rutgers.edu>, 
mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com (Wanda L McCrae) writes:
>.... 
> If our bodies were sinful, Christ would have been sinful.  Since
> Christ was without sin and he was human, I don't know if we can say that 
> our bodies are sinful.

Wanda, you have missed a fundamental point. We are sinful and were born
sinful because we have the seed of Adam in us. Jesus did not. 

* My opinions do not reflect those of my wife, kids, company, or country.

                                               |\/\/\/|
* Scott Lindsey                                |      |
* A10035@email.mot.com                         |      |
* Corporate Manufacturing Research Center      | (o) (o)
* Staff Scientist                              C      _)   ...Hey Dude!
* Motorola                                      |  `__|
* Schaumburg, IL 60110                           |   /
                                               /    \
                                              / ---- \
From: norris@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Latin Mass Directory, slightly revised September edition
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:08:25 GMT

[This is a revision of a list that has previously been posted here.
The current copy is available via anonymous FTP on info.rutgers.edu,
in /pub/soc.religion.christian/faq/latin-mass-dir.  I have truncated
this posting after the first entry, since I doubt that it makes
sense to post the whole 55 Kbytes regularly.  If you don't have
access to FTP, I'll be happy to send you the whole thing via email.
--clh]

The Latin Mass Directory
of the
Latin Liturgy Association

revised September 1992

     This Directory is a catalogue of all Latin Masses licitly celebrated in
the United States and Canada.  If the Mass is said according to the Revised
Roman Missal of Pope Paul VI, no special mention is made: if it is said
according to the Roman Missal of 1962 under the Papal Indult, the annotation
"1962 Missal" is added to the listing.

(June 1992:)
     The Chairman asks that the members write to him about any corrections or
additions that should be made in the Directory.  Unlike the sun in Homer, he
does not see all and hear all.  Sometimes years go by without his being
informed, so negligent are the members involved.  Even in these times of
recession, the cost of a 19" postcard would not put anyone under the bridge. 
It is of particular importance to inform the Chairman if any of the entries
below should be removed from the list.


                                  ALABAMA

                           Diocese of Birmingham
St. Theresa's Church
P.O.B. 525
Leeds, AL 35904 
1-205-699-8534
Every other Sunday at 3 PM 
1962 Missal
Celebrant: Fr.  Peter T. MacCarthy (LLA)
From: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Scott Aaron)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Iraq and love
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:28:18 GMT
Reply-To: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

During a discussion of politics in church recently, I came across 

  "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a
   drink."  Romans 12:20 [NASB]

which is a quote of Proverbs 25:21.  Jesus also tells us to

  "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse
   you..."  Luke 6:27,28 [NASB]

Would these verses disallow our support for sanctions against nations like
Iraq?  Due to the UN sanctions, many in Iraq are hungry and thirsty.  I
support the sanctions but I think the Bible challenges us on this.  Comments?

  -- Scott @Brandeis

	"But God demonstrates His	"I tell you that in the same way,
	 own love for us, in that	 there will be more joy in heaven
	 while we were yet sinners,	 over one sinner who repents, than
	 Christ died for us."		 over ninety-nine righteous persons
					 who need no repentance." 
		-- Romans 5:8 [NASB]		-- Luke 15:7 [NASB]
From: root@candle.uucp (Bruce Momjian)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Need Christian Jokes...
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:27:27 GMT
Organization: a consultant's basement

Here's a Christian Joke, good for humbling someone:

Last night I had a dream that I had died and gone to heaven.  I was
standing at the Pearly Gates, and Saint Peter was interviewing me about
my life.  As he was asking me questions, I saw Jim through the Pearly
Gates, and he was with this very ugly woman.  So I asked Saint Peter, 
"Why is Jim with that woman?"  Saint Peter said, "Well, when Jim was a
little boy, he threw a stone and killed a bird, and that's his
punishment."  I said, "Oh", and was thankful I never threw stones at
birds.
 

Later on, I saw Ernie through the gates, and he was with this really
ugly woman, the ugliest woman I ever saw, so I said to Saint Peter, "Why
is Ernie with that really ugly woman?"  Saint Peter said, "Well, when
Ernie was a little boy, he threw a stone and killed a bird, and that's
his punishment." 

The interview was just finishing up, and I saw Bob, and Bob was with Dolly
Parton, so I asked, "Saint Peter, how come Bob is with Dolly Parton.", and
Saint Peter said, "Well, when Dolly was a little girl ..."

 * * * 

This is a great joke to tell with a group of guys.  The look on the last
guy's face when he hears he is with Dolly Parton, and then when he hears
why, is great.

-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
root%candle.uucp@bts.com               |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (215) 353-9879(w) 
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (215) 853-3000(h)
From: dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Is heaven really desirable?
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:47:56 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

Assuming for the moment that we are lucky enough to go to heaven:
What will we do there in all that time?  Let's say we start with all
of our most favorite things: swimming, baseball, knitting, math,
chatting, etc.  Now the problem is after a 1000, 10,000 etc. years
will we still get any significant enjoyment out of the thousands of
activities we have time for?  After all what's new or interesting
in baseball after thousands of years.  Same for all the other activities.
Next problem after the world ends there will be no more new souls
comming to heaven.  We will probably know everyone on the most intimate
basis after a short billion years or so.  Even helping others won't be
possible since only saints and angles and God interact with the natural
world/universe.  I doubt if anyone wants/rembers me after a couple hundred
years from now (on earth).  So the only souls I'll be in contact with
are the righteous (read as having very similar viewpoints).  Not much
challange there.  Will we all go stale after a few eons.  We won't 
even pray since God is right there and being infinite can always respond
at once.  Will we become lazy, there is always tomorrow, the concept 
of lazy may be irrellevant as there is no work to do.  We don't need
or want money.  Even if there were souls to save, people to help, how
many millions of years could we do basically the same thing over and
over again. The situtations and people involved change, but the rest
is the same.  Could you do it for even a 1000 years, or how about 
10,000 years, or a million years.  Will we be so jaded that any change 
will start to look good:  Hell,  non-existance.  And do we even have
that option or will heaven turn into eternal torture will no pain, no
challanges, nothing to strive for since we already are in heaven.

Sorry about the long post,:(

[I'm not yet convinced that there is no challenge in heaven.  --clh]
From: jfb@macsch.com (John Baskette)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity
Date: 16 Nov 92 03:12:03 GMT
Organization: MacNeal-Schwendler Corp.

In article <Nov.13.02.17.43.1992.19268@geneva.rutgers.edu> dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:
>Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 

The Scriptures describe the eternal state in the following terms:

"God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall
be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there
be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." 

We will be with Him, serve Him, and reign with Him forever.  

No one will be bored, because boredom as a kind of pain will not 
exist.

When we enter into life everlasting, we will enter into the joy
of the Lord which never ends.  Eternal joy cannot be lost since
it is eternal.

Another thought: 

Time is an abstraction that refers to the possibility of relationships
in durational sequence.  When we measure time, we measure the
relation of objects in duration.  Duration is our experience of 
events in sequence with a before and after.

Now God is said to be eternal, meaning in part that he is outside
of time.  He is changeless and does not have a beginning or an
end.  He is simultaneously a whole without any succession of 
before or after.

It is possible that our eternal state in heaven will consist of 
a participation in the eternity of God.  We may not experience
"duration" in the sense of any sequence of events, because our
participation in the eternity of God may make us in some sense
changeless also.  

If this is the case, then the eternal state is an end to time
as we know it and there is no "doing" in the eternal state.

John
From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: New Age paranoia
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:45:36 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <Nov.17.03.37.33.1992.26564@geneva.rutgers.edu> massengale_m@cubldr.colorado.edu writes:
>With due respect for Mr. Farell's patriotism, I would suggest that this
>country is founded on Greco-Roman systems of government, as well as our
>Judeo-Christian heritage.  Intolerance such as he proposes has already
>brought many people to shores to become Americans.  Our country would be
>less great without them.  Should we invite them to leave now?

I have not said that at all. What I DID say is that there is good reason
for concern at the rise of many very bizarre neo-pagan and occultic practices
whose practitioners are trying to find validity for their indefensible and
despicable practices (such as human sacrifice, kidnapping, mutilation, 
theft, vandalism, extortion, terrorism, drug smuggling, murder, etc.) in
the Constitutional protection of freedom of religion.

I also said that the Constitution was NOT written to protect this
kind of behavior under ANY guise, religious or otherwise.

Nowhere did I express intolerance for anything but ideas and deeds
which are manifestly against the very notions that made our country
possible. This sense of this is so self-evident it should not need
defense or explanation.  That it has (three times, already) is 
more evidence in support of my position that pluralism has run wild,
both in American popular culture and even in many churches.
-- 
Peter Farrell			| "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, 
ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil 	| shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he
				| who does the will of my Father in heaven."

[It was not clear from your original posting that when you referred to
the Constitution not being used to protect bizarre cults, you had in
mind only activities such as human sacrifice, theft, etc.  As far as I
know, no one has asserted here that religious freedom should cover any
of these activities, nor do I think such claims are common.  I suspect
many readers read your posting as opposing use of freedom of religion
to cover unpopular non-Christian religions of all sorts, i.e. the
vast majority of "pagan" and "new age" groups, Eastern religions, etc.
--clh]
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is heaven really desirable?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:31:41 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

I think there is a fundamental error in making assumptions about what
we will be like in heaven.  Looking at ourselves in our current form,
it is easy to deduce that if things remained exactly the same, a few
thousand years will get pretty dull after awhile.  However, I don't
believe we will remain exactly the same, and won't be subject to the
human foible of boredom.  The things we like to do now may seem
incredibly trivial (if they don't already).  

After that, assuming somehow you did get bored or discouraged after
a million years, I'm sure you could always just "forget" everything
that happened and start over :-)  It is silly to think of heaven
as a place where you will be miserable for eternity (a la an eternal
version of a hospital life support system), because in that case
it wouldn't be heaven.  It's almost as silly an excuse as the
old rejoinder "why should I want to go to heaven when all my
fun friends will be in hell".



-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    Macintosh - you can buy better, but you can't pay more!
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Ends justify the means?
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:08:37 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <Nov.12.02.49.57.1992.17069@geneva.rutgers.edu> DSIMON@thor.nafb.trw.com (D_SIMON) writes:
[fear of hell might lead someone into returning to Christianity]
>Now you may argue about the existence of hell, but that's not the point.
>The point is that I believe hell exists, and as such I have a responsibility
>to inform people (or "terrorize" people, as you would say) about hell
>so that they can make better informed decisions.

...just a data point based on my own experience...

Many times in my teens and early twenties I wished that I could just
forget about heaven and hell and God and Christ and live my life and
be okay on my own.

But then I wouldn't be a 'good Christian'.
And I wouldn't be a 'good person'. 
And I wouldn't be acceptable.
And I would eventually go to hell, which is what I deserved anyway,
because I was obviously totally, complete, and utter slime.

So I continued to follow the rules and go to church and try to 'be 
perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect'.

So that God would accept me.
So that I would be 'okay'.
So that I might get to go to heaven.

Oh, of course Christ died for my sins. But now I had to stay in Him.
And that was SUPPOSED to be a lot of work.

Besides, it seemed nobody wanted to hear about doubts anyway.

                           ----------

Was I a Christian then?  No.
Did I think I was? Yes.

Did fear of hell keep me in the Church?  Yes, for a time.
Did fear of hell make, or keep me, a Christian? No - in fact, I think it
helped to keep me from BECOMING a Christian. I was too afraid
to admit that what I was doing WASN'T working and that I truly did
not trust Christ and that I did not KNOW that I was saved (because
I WASN'T saved).

I submit that the point of being a Christian is not heaven or hell.
I submit that the point of being a Christian is to have a relationship
with God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit) and to 
glorify Him.

Heaven and hell are sidelines; those who want to know God, who choose
to seek Him, will find Him. That is what we call heaven. Those who do
not want to know God, those who do not choose to seek Him, will not 
find Him. That we call Hell. As CS Lewis said, "In the end there are
two types of people; those that say to God, 'Thy will be done', and
those to whom God says, 'THY will be done'."

Please note that I'm not saying that heaven and hell don't exist, or
that Christians don't have a responsibility to share the truth. Someone
who may be dying soon may naturally find the concepts of heaven and
hell helpful.  But...will someone who doesn't want to know God find
heaven so 'heavenly' as they think?  

-jen