From: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM (Frank Farkas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus
Date: 18 Nov 1992 15:49:20 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: qual




Paul Harvey responded to my posting regarding the issue of Jesus dying.

>>Yes, Jesus as God did experience mortal death. 

>Jesus as God experienced mortal death but did not die? How is that
>possible? How can someone experience death and not die? Is that like
>seeing a video or something?

The death which Jesus experienced is the same death which you and I will
experience. Mortal death is the death of the physical body and the separation
of the spirit from the physical body. I believe that we have living witneses 
to this process. We have countless stories of "near death" experiences where
the spirit did separate from the body, at least for temporarily.

>>To say that Jesus the man experienced mortal death, but Jesus the God didn't 
>>is a double talk unless one believes in a split Jesus.

>But that is exactly what you are saying. Or, to be more precise, you are
>saying that Jesus the man died but Jesus the god didn't. And this isn't
>a split Jesus? 

Read above what I wrote. I never said that Jesus the man died, but Jesus 
the God didn't. I made exactly the opposite point, that Jesus did die a
mortal death.

>If Jesus is not split and Jesus is man and god at the
>same time and Jesus the man dies, then Jesus the god must also die.

I agree, Jesus as man and God did suffer a mortal death. However, once again,
mortal death doesn't mean the death of the spirit.

>>To me Jesus was more 
>>together then any other being I have a knowledge of. Jesus *is* one.

>Makes sense if Jesus was a prophet. If Jesus was a god and a man at the
>same time, then Jesus as god and man died on the cross. Is there a
>problem with this logic?

Not in my logic. Of course you need to understand that we are speaking about
mortal death. That is, the death of the physical body. The spirit doesn't die.
This is true for us as well as for Jesus.

>>Peter also gave a strong warning about the difficulties associated with Paul's
>>teaching, and that many has "wrested" Paul's writing for their destruction.
>>2 Peter 3:16
>>"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are 
>>somethings hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable 
>>wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
>>I believe that the same problem exist today. Many teach a theology after the
>>misunderstood teachings of Paul.

>That's what I've been saying. And that's why I have problems with Paul's
>"official" history of Jesus.

Paul writings are not autobiographical. His writings are theological in nature, 
which he wrote from a particular perspective. Paul`s letters were addressed to
specific people, for specific reasons. Without understanding what Paul is
responding to, his writings can't be understood. In a teaching situation,
under ideal conditions, we take into consideration where the person is whom
we try to teach, and accordingly we structure our lessons. In the process I
may find that I need to emphasize different things with different people.

The problem is not that Paul taught wrong things, but that we try to understand
everything which he said in an absolute terms. This is what Peter referred to
when he said that there are some who wrest his writings to their own destruction.
There are Christians today who focuse so narrowly on the misunderstood teachings of
Paul that they not only ignor, but actually deny the teachings of Jesus, and the 
other writers of the Bible. They are engaged in rationalization, because as in 
Peter's time, out of their ignorance, they wrest the scriptures to their own
destruction. For example, many will quote Paul's passages regarding faith, but ignor 
those which deals with the requirement to do good works. 

I hope that this clarified somewhat what I was trying to say.

With brotherly love,

		Frank