HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beatles and the canon
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:57:33 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <CB.92Oct14183424@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk
(Chris Brewster) wrote:

[Roger Lustig]
>    White Christmas or the Sixth: which one has better recognition?  8-)
> 
> Well, I was talking more about permanence than current recognition.  My
> hunch is still that older popular styles will just gradually disappear,
> though you make interesting points.  And some old pop stuff really does
> seem to be getting some Beethoven-style permanence, such as ragtime.

Songs that are really popular tend to pass over into other idioms.  Many
popular standards show up a generation or two later as "folk music," as in
the case of many blues masterpieces.  Others pass into "classical music,"
either literally or transformed.  Some of the best songs go from one idiom
to another several times; for example, the most famous themes of
Beethoven's 9th are essentially German folksongs, and after being in the
9th they have been lifted into jazz, ragtime, and commercial folk music.

As I wrote the paragraph above, I heard the Turtle Island String Quartet,
on the radio, playing a composition that ended up with a very literal
quotation of "I Heard the News Today, Oh Boy" from Sergeant Pepper.

So there are different kinds of permanence.  We think of "classical" music
as immutable in its content, because the score tries to specify the
entirety of the performance.  But pop music scores are outlines --
typically a chord progression and the melody line, both subject to heavy
revision in each and every performance.  Even lyrics are altered by
performers.  So the permanence of such music has to be measured in a
different way, I think.  I agree with Roger that the Beatles' songs are a
good example of pop music becoming canonical; I predict that in a hundred
years, the basic material of these songs will still be around in
recognizable form, even if people don't remember the Beatles any more than
most people today recognize Stephen Foster and Henry Clay Work.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: leiwo@phoenix (Jussi Leiwo)
Subject: Re: Dr. Faustus
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 10:32:04 GMT

Roger Lustig (roger@crux.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
: In article <1992Oct14.070743.11478@ousrvr.oulu.fi> leiwo@phoenix (Jussi Leiwo) writes:
: >Well, the person who had translated the book into finnish wrote in the
: >introduction that the ideas for that 'new music' come from Mr. Schonberg's
: >compositions.
: 
: Correct -- but, more precisely, Adorno's descriptions of Schoenberg.
: 
: >I guess the music composed by Mahler isn't so new and revolutionary, he
: >wasn't even interested in what was behind his music. 
: 
: Huh?  Schoenberg, for one, would disagree!  Lots of people consider
: Mahler, even today, to be a revolutionary musical figure.  As for
: "not interested in what was behind his music," could you elaborate?
: I don't know what you mean.
:
	< cutted > 
: 
: Roger

	
	Well, what I thought was that Mahler tried to compose somehow
	absolute music, that means the music gets all its ideas from
	musical perfecteness. All kind of things coming from the surrounding
	world (that means real world) are not worth putting into form of
	music. I thought that he as a composer tried to fill his music
	with things that can only be understood via the music.

	So, I don't know how things really are, but that was what I thought.
	I'll go home and listen to Mahler some more and return if I find
	something new (from the booklet coming with the record :-))

	--Jussi

	P.S. (one more) That is quite good a question to think about: Can
	     music (or any other form of art) be understood without the
	     knowledge about what is behind the piece analysed.

		







Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:50:09 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.211359.7117@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.145821.9242@Princeton.EDU>
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> >Well we certainly have put our foot in our mouth tonight haven't we? No
>> >well recognized hits well then you probably haven't heard "La Donne e
>> >mobile" "Va pensiero" the entire soundtrack to Pretty Woman The
>> >overture to La Traviata The triumphal March in Aida? Haven't heard
>> >these???? Now let me think of ONE Glass "Tune" that matches his "rival"
>> >in this category. Please tell me how much a gazillion is? THis is an
>> >insult to compare one of the worlds greats to Glass.

>> Call us in 125 years, OK?

>No other artist needed 125 years (exc. Bach et al) to become popular
>and, Verdi's tunes where equally popular in his day and age as they are
>now.

Now how do you know that?  I suspect that Verdi's music was far better
known in his day than it is now; and that's probably true in Italy,
too.  Verdi was also a composer of pop hits in his day, after all;
that's the effect some of his music had.  As for becoming popular, 
very few composers in this century have become popular at all if they
wrote concert music or opera; and, given the distribution of pop music
today, it would be *impossible* for them to become popular in the way
Verdi was.  Verdi today wouldn't make it either, and boneheaded 
comparisons (sorry, but I mean this: without comparing the circumstances
under which music was made, saying "verdi was more popular faster" is
just useless) won't help.

Roger
From: jlhui@neumann.uwaterloo.ca (Victor Hui)
Subject: Re: Orchestras/conductors
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:08:09 GMT

> Toronto             Davis

The music director for Toronto Symphony Orchestra is Gunther Herbig.

From: rms@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Rick Scherer)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:43:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Orchestras/conductors -- corrections
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical


>N. Y. Philharmonic	Boulez

Oops!  Masur is the new conductor of the N.Y. Phil.


>---
>Rick Scherer
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Brendel's Beethoven on Vox Box CDs
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:20:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.080210.2767@netcom.com> bryan@netcom.com (Bryan Higgins) writes:

>Can anyone tell me when the ultra-cheap (each "Vox Box" volume is two discs for
>$8 at Tower Classics in Berkeley) Brendel recordings of the Beethoven piano
>sonatas on Vox were recorded?

Around 1960, I think.  I find them useful mainly for comparison, though
some ofthe performances are very good.  Also, you get the *complete*
Beethoven piano music, which is a lot.

Roger
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach's sixth cello suite.  What happened?
Date: 10 Oct 92 14:00:02
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu's message of Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:48:27 GMT

In article <MURRAY.92Oct10094827@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu> murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Thomas Murray) writes:

   Speaking of Bach's cello suites, I've been doing some fairly intense
   listening lately.  The sixth suite (D major) really stands out. The
   movements, especially the Prelude and Allemande have gotten much
   longer than previous suites (with the exception of the Prelude of the
   fifth suite in C minor), much more dramatically intense, and the range
   just exploded.  The Prelude goes up to a high E (I believe)!!  And it
   stays up there much of the time, before suddenly plunging down to the
   depths. 

High D, but who counts...

   What happened?  Was Bach just maturing?  Did something traumatic
   happen about this time?  

From what I've read (i. e. liner notes) the 6th suite was composed for a
five-stringed instrument, probably a cello with a high E string
(violoncello piccolo?).  That would account for the high range (the high
D is third position on an E string, and the other suites generally use
notes that are played in first and third positions).
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write league@prep.ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gerritse@sci.kun.nl (Bart Gerritse)
Subject: Re: Brahms 3rd Symphony (Repost)
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:17:00 GMT

In <1992Oct13.020233.27468@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>In article <Bw0320.Ex2@sci.kun.nl>
>gerritse@sci.kun.nl (Bart Gerritse) writes:

>of All these I prefer the Abbado with the tragic ouverture coupled with
>it. His interpretation is the most satisfying

I never wrote this. I couldn't, since I never heard Abbado's Brahms 3.
Please, be careful with citations.

Bart Gerritse
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rpt@edscom.demon.co.uk (Richard Tomlinson)
Subject: Re: Why switch to CD?
Organization: EDS-Scicon, Milton Keynes, UK
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:09:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.014327.9871@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> ttak@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tim Takahashi) writes:
>Excuse me! But I must hold the analog flame high up on my soap-box.
>
>To answer some questions :
>
>Case 1 : LP sound quality is better than CD sound quality -
>   comparing $500 clas playback equipment, the difference is moderate but
>   noticable. The CD player does not have as well defined imaging or
>   as smooth a treble when playing near identical recordings.
>
>   I prefer analog recordings to digital. This is largely moot given the
>   current state of the industry, but mint used records are inexpensive!
>
>   "Digital Remastering" does not necessarily mean better. Usually it
>   turns a muddy analog recording into an equalized muddy digital remastering.
>
>   Post 1950 recording technology is pretty good, surely all microphones
>   are coloured and some more than others. But less processing is usually
>   better - digital "remastering" is processing, just as "electronically
>   enhanced for stereo".
>

My experience is that analogue recordings are generally far inferior to almost
all digital recordings. Even the most recent AAD CDs in my collection give
their analogue origins away by containing enormous amounts of hiss. The whole
sound is often very muddy and unclear. Yet digital recordings sound so
incredibly good. If I close my eyes while listening to classical DDD CDs, I
really feel as if the orchestra is in the same room.

Richard.
-- 
Richard Tomlinson, EDS Scicon, Wavendon Tower, Milton Keynes, UK MK17 8LX
rpt@edscom.demon.co.uk   Tel:  +44 908 284539          Amateur radio: G4TGJ
All opinions expressed are mine, and are not necessarily those of my employer.
From: jboor@mote.cs.umb.edu (Joan Boorstein)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bach Cello Suites on Period Instrument: Rec. Wanted
Keywords: Bach, Cello Suites
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:45:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Oct8.164533.9425
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Dept of Math and CS

In article <BvqH0q.Kuq@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> mvburke@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mary virginia burke) writes:
>In <1992Oct6.210317.23962@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Oct6.065125.8678@midway.uchicago.edu> pkbockus@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Keith Bockus) writes:
>>>I'm looking for a recording of the Bach Cello suites
>>>on a period instrument, but haven't found any 
>>>recommended recordings.  Any suggestions 
>>>(or reasons why I should not be looking for
>>>such a thing)?
>
>>Peter Wispelway's recording of the suites on Channel Classics
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pieter Wispelwey, isn't it?
>>is stunning on all counts.  Go for it.
>
>Hmm, haven't gotten to this one yet, but it's on my Christmas list.
>
>But until the jury comes back on Mr. Wispelwey, I staunchly maintain that
>Anner Bylsma's recording is the best one around, and that's including the
>modern-instrument performances.....Problem is, it's next to impossible to 
>lay hands on it any more.  I have the whole set on vinyl, but so far have only
>been able to locate the CD with suites 4, 5, & 6 (on Pro Arte, I think it is).
>The good news is that he's allegedly going to re-record the set sometime in 
>the near future (at least, that's what the concert flyer said).  'Tis a 
>consummation devoutly to be wish'd.

I have only heard Wispelwey's recording (in part) on the radio -- my 
reaction at the time was that it was not as good as my cherished Bylsma -- 
confirmed by listening to my Bylsma LPs again -- I wish I could remember
what I specifically preferred about the Bylsma --- the lilting rhythms maybe?

I have also recently heard part of a recording of Wispelwey doing the 
Beethoven Sonatas for Cello & Piano -- I want to hear this again -- 
has Bylsma done these? if so, who plays the fortepiano?

Joan Boorstein (jboor@cs.umb.edu)
From: gray@rz-berlin.mpg.de (Struan Gray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Berlin Opera Houses
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:10:23 GMT
Organization: Rechenzentrum MPG Berlin


  Someone asked about opera houses in Berlin.  Delighted to be able
to give something back to r.m.c after so much good advice I list the
three main venues below.

  As a general note,let me point out that if you can get hold of a copy
of "Opera Now" it lists the adresses and telephone numbers of all the
major european houses and what they are playing in the next month.

Deutsche Oper (was the Opera for W. Berlin)
  Bismarckstrasse 34-37
  D-1000 Berlin 10
  Germany

Tel: +39 30 3438 230
Fax: +39 30 3438 232


Deutsche Staatsoper (was the Opera for E. Berlin)
  Unter den Linden 7
  O-1080 Berlin
  Germany

Tel: +39 30 2035 40
     +39 30 2035 4494 (visitor's service)
     +39 30 2082 861  (what's playing)


Komische Oper (what the name implies, also in the old east)
  Behrenstrasse 55-57
  O-1086 Berlin
  Germany

Tel: +39 30 2292 555
     +39 30 2292 603 (visitor's service)

(You must add your country's international code in front of the 39)

  Please don't think that I am trying to make a political point by
mentioning the old east and west.  Some of the productions from both
sides are dreadful (well, bad anyway) but the most stultifying *I*
have sat through have been in the ex-east (just don't remind me of
a Figaro from '74, still going in '92).

  Often it is possible to buy tickets from outside Berlin earlier
than you can get them here.  So if there is something you must see,
book early by mail order - you'll beat the natives to it.  All three
houses give a 50% reduction to holders of international student
cards on tickets sold one hour or less before the performance.

  If anyone wants information about a specific date, feel free to
ask.  E-mail is more likely to elicit a response from me than a
posting to r.m.c or soc.culture.german.

Struan
From: hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:43:50 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I was wondering if anyone has yet compiled a short list of the most abused
pieces of classical music, i.e. music used in stupid commercials, etc...

Personally, I can't think of anything that gets picked on as badly as "The Ride
of the Valkyries" from Wagner's Die Walkure.







_______________________________________________________________________________
			     "The noble soul has reverence for itself."
 Michael Hurben                                                  -Nietzsche
 Dept. of Physics         "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."
 Colorado State University                                       -Quayle
 hurben@lamar.colostate.edu  "See how I love to clean filthy catboxes!"
								   -Hoek
________________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kldawkin@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Kiwi)
Subject: Re: Alkan trivia
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 01:47:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.204929.13641@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>In article <1992Oct8.014446.9566@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu>, kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky) writes:
>|> 
>|> For those who may find this enigmatic, the story of Alkan's death is that
>|> he was supposedly crushed by a falling bookself or bookcase while reaching
>|> for a volume of the Talmud.
>|> 
>|> A recent article (maybe 2 years ago or so) from the Musical Times revealed
>|> this story to be totally apocryphal, that contemporary newspapers correctly
>|> reported that he died mysteriously (apparently a heart attack or something
>
>The way I heard it was that he pulled the book off the shelf, turned
>around and started walking away, only to have the bookcase assault him
>from behind. A fanciful addendum to this was that as the bookcase fell,
>a certain individual who had been hiding behind it triumphantly shook
>his fist, namely, Franz Lizst.

	Couldn't disagree more... although initially Alkan did not
	like Liszt, they became fast friends and all the time while
	Alkan lived his hermit's life, Liszt would apparently drop
	in and visit him whenever he was in Paris. Somehow,
	I doubt Liszt would have killed the man of whom he said
	"He possesses the finest technique I have ever known".

	Actually, Ronald Smith's two books about Alkan are fascinating,
	although I have to admit, reading them is often like
	reading the Newman books about Wagner... a little on
	the sycophantic, "if-he-were-alive-I'd-marry-him" side.

	Cheers!

	Kyle.

   ,------------------------------.,---------------------------------.   \._,
  /   7   ,7  o             o     / kldawkins@cayley.waterloo.edu    /   < /
 /   /--<'   /   /  ,  /   /     / kldawkins@descartes.waterloo.edu /     ' 
/  -'    `--'`--'`-'`-'`--'`-   / kldawkins@orchid.waterloo.edu    /    /7 
`------------------------------'`---------------------------------'    //  NZ!
"Don't call me God. Call me Pope so I have something to aspire to."    '
From: hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The Abuse of Classical Music
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:26:06 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Oct13.023341.29133@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>there is a decidedly anti-Verdi bias in your reporting of the worlds
>most overused songs. What about "La donne e mobile" "Va
>pensiero"(briefly mentioned) "Anvil chorus" Any march in Aida. 

My apologies...One of the most disgusting things I have ever witnessed was
that horrible little glove with a face that sells Hamburger Helper singing
a twisted, tormented version of "La donne e mobile."


  -Mike Hurben
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:28:44 GMT
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Oct13.075353.11199@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>It's sad that you confuse novelty for originality. 

OK, since you're so smart, what's the difference?

>Every period was
>accepted within 80 years but this modern and atonal music gets more
>detractors every day.

What makes you think so? Not on this newsgroup it doesn't. And Glass, Adams,
etc. seem to be quite popular where I live.

>Its a music of snobs and the musically well
>educated get back to basics get back to Verdi

Verdi wrote some hot stuff; Otello and Falstaff come to mind; but what's
so basic about it?

Let's see, a few lines back you were putting someone down for their
supposed stupidity; here you're putting people down because of their
intelligence. Do you have a pathologically sensitive ego or are you
just confused?

							Jeff Winslow
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Opinions of _Classic CD_ Magazine?
From: <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 9 Oct 1992 13:43:20 EDT
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

In article <Bvu9vo.A5p@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cec35848@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Chuck
Carroll) says:
>
>Anyway, in the latest "Musical Heritage Review" (read: catalog)
>there is an ad for _Classic CD_ magazine.  Once a month the
>magazine comes, and with it a CD.  According to the ad, the magazine
>has (among aother things) "reviews of all significant new classical
>CD's" and "Special features linked to the cover CD [which] enhance
>understanding and appreciation."  The CD plays for 70 (or more)
>minutes and has "highlights from 12-16 of the month's best new releases"
>and "Each excerpt is usually 5 to 10 minutes long."
>
>So my question is, is there anyone out there who subscribes to
>this magazine now, or who has ever subscribed to it?  If so, what
>do you think of it?  If nothing else, I'm hoping it will expose
>me to a wide variety of classical music so that I know what I like,
>rather than me going out and buying random CD's.
 
I subscribe, and find Classic CD to be a fine publication.  If you are
looking for a relatively inexpensive way to sample lots of different music,
the cover CD sampler is about the best way that I can think of doing it.
However, note that the cover CD is almost never exclusively new CD excerpts.
There are some older titles that get cuts on the cover disc.
 
The magazine also features a piece of music each month and does comparisons
of the strengths and weaknesses of several recorded versions of the work,
and makes a *collector's choice* selection for the best version.  This
month is Ravel's *Tombeau de Couperin*.
 
I think for $5 a month, that it's a great magazine.  It also reviews discs
in varoius classical genres that other magazines (like Gramophone) seem to
neglect.  Particularly, I'm a fan of organ music and they have *round-ups* of
reviews of organ music, historical reissues, budget CDs, etc, on a monthly
basis.   The fact that you get a CD with it makes it all the more worth your
consideration for the money.
 
Incidentally, $5/month is the yearly subscription rate.   Also, keep in mind
that the magazine is actually produced in UK which makes it a bit biased
toward European readers.
 
Mike Hughes
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: debrown@athena.mit.edu
Subject: Pachelbel Canon(s)?
Keywords: Canon, Pachelbel
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 01:02:17 GMT

Hello. Can someone tell me if Pachelbel wrote any Canons other than the famous
Canon in D which have been recorded (on CD) by instruments other than solo organ?
I'm sure I remember hearing some played a while back on a classical radio station.
 
 
If anyone still has a Commodore computer, there was a program called Music 
Construction Set by Electronic Arts which included a Canon by Pachelbel which
WASN'T the Canon in D. Anyone know the name of that one??!! I'd love to know.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Dave.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical