From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: THE FINAL WORD ON TWISTED LOGIC!
Date: 22 Dec 1992 21:00:45 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <22DEC199210124698@summa.tamu.edu>, crr4574@summa.tamu.edu (LARUE, CHARLES L.) writes:
>
> My point is this.  If you want to convince people that homosexuality is
> not wrong you must give evidence that it is not.  Spouting off doesn't
> get it done.

And assuming that the default position of that homosexuality is bad
and that we have to prove it's not, is a very poor starting position.

When I talk to people around me, what I find is that vast majority of 
people simply don't care about sexual orientation.   They may find it
strange, but since it does not affect them personally, they don't worry
about it all that much.

And then there are a small majority of religious bigots and immature
jerks who are just looking for someone to hate, and these are the ones
who want to victimise Gays.

The way these bigots operate is to declare as a starting postion that
being Gay is "bad" and then insist that gays have to do something - 
never very clearly specified, of course - to "prove" that they are not 
bad.    That is, they try to persuade other people that Gays being bad 
is the default, and that any other position is extreme.

And that's your position, too.   Your position is that we have to
prove we are not "bad" otherwise we only have ourselves to blame.


> Picking out small parts of my posts (as several of you have done)
> without looking at the whole context accomplishes nothing.  You seem to
> have a chip on your shoulder.  You seem to have a problem with reading
> comprehension.

You need to learn to stand by what you write.    If you write so badly
that you contradict yourself, then get someone else to quickly scan
what you write before you post it, and point out places where what
you have written could be misinterpreted.


>
> Go back and read my old posts and maybe you will understand that I do
> not try to bash you but I try to understand you so that I will not
> despise you.  Believe me, people despise you, people hate you, and
> people wish you dead.

What qualifies you to speak on behalf of "people"?    A very small number
of religiously motivate people, and a small number of immature jerks
feel this way.    I know of no evidence that "people" as a whole express
such feelings.

This is a good example to think about when you complain that people
misinterpret what you write.    Here is a flat statement about "people"
that simply isn't true, and yet you state it with complete confidence,
as though it were the most obvious thing in the world.

Given a couple of days, you'll probably be claiming that you never said
such a foolish thing, and that we're all a bunch of meanies to hold
you to your own words.

>
> The only way to change the way people feel is to make them understand
> why you are this way.  If you don't care, fine.

Sure I care.    I just don't believe, based on my own experience, that
you represent anything more than a tiny and bigotted group.   It's that
tiny and unrepresentative group that I don't care about.   It's *you*
I don't care about, not people in general.

I care enough to critique what you say, lest other people be misled
by what you write, but I couldn't care less about proving anything to
you, because I think that what you are ready to understand is probably much
more a function of your own personality, and what you will allow yourself
to understand, than a function of anything I need to prove.


>
> Nobody wishes me dead because of my sexual orientation so the problem
> is yours.

"No-one wishes me dead because of my skin colour, Dr King, so the problem
is yours"   That kind of thing?


>
> So far, some people have contributed to my understanding, but you are
> not one of them.

If I can persuade you to write what you mean, and to stand by what you
write, I may teach you more than you imagine.

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.motss