HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mitchf@panix.com (Mitch Feinstein)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Consulting, Contracting, and Outsourcing
Summary: request for information about subject
Keywords: consulting, contracting, outsourcing, employees
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:33:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

Hello everyone, I am doing my MBA thesis for school on the use of
computer consultants (or contract programmers) versus the use of
employees for computer projects.  I have done much of the preliminary
research necessary, but I would like to talk/type with some "real"
consultants (or employees) regarding their experiences.

The questions that are on my mind pertain
(a) to how much the difference is between the pay of a programmer
    and the pay of a consultant.
(b) The effectiveness of the consultants (any disaster stories, or
    glory stories would be nice)
(c) Companies that refuse to hire consultants (and any reasons you
    may know why).
(d) Companies that hire consultants all the time.
(e) Company policies regarding the hiring of consultants.
(f) Other places where you think I could get information regarding
    consultants (maybe other newsgroups?).
(g) I'm also throwing in the use of outsourcing to add filler to the
    document, so if there are any stories about this, I would be
    appreciative as well.

If any of you are kind enough to reply, you may either post a message
or email me directly (mitchf@panix.com).  Any information you give me
will be held with strict confidence of you wish.

Thank You.


-- 
mitchf@panix.com
Mitchell Feinstein
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: the second interview, continued
Date: 10 Nov 1992 15:54:18 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <1992Nov7.095053.18287@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris) writes:
>At one company one of the criteria was (for men) if your shoes were shined!
>The thinking was that if the person doesn't take pride in his looks he
>probably won't take pride in his work.
>...I carry a good looking leather folder with
>a couple extra copies of my resume (not xeroxes, laserjet originals),

   Tsk, tsk, tsk.  You mean you don't get them offset-printed on quality
bond paper?  Three demerits. :-)
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
From: clifto@indep1.UUCP (Cliff Sharp)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: code samples?
Date: 7 Nov 92 21:38:13 GMT
Organization: as little as possible

In article <Bx75nL.MAt@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley) writes:
>When a potential employer asks for code samples (obviously for a 
>programming or software engineering type position), what do they 
>actually want?  I have written lots and lots of code over the years 

   I usually make it a point to bring code samples which are _totally_
unrelated to the work they're doing.  If they want a communications driver
for an IBM PC, I bring them one from an IBM mainframe in BAL (ALC?) code;
there are those organizations that will slip out of the room for a sec while
they xerox your code, then tell you you're not needed, and use your code
without your being able to verify that they did so.  If informed in advance,
I will also try to ask some former clients if it's okay that this company
call them to verify that I've indeed done IBM PC comm drivers and they've
worked successfully.  But I have _never_ supplied the exact code they need
for their application, as I've been told by other consultants that the
xerox-kind-of-thing happens all the time.
   It helps that my experience goes from mainframe to mini to micro, and I'm
able to tell them that none of what they ask for has ever been a challenge,
that I'm usually able to implement what they want from scratch in days, or
I'm able to sell them something I wrote in years past for a given fee.
   Advice from my friends in the industry: DON'T EVER show them code they
can use; show them similar code you've written for an entirely different
machine, and tell them you're able to write similar code for their product
in a jiffy.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   Cliff Sharp  |      clifto@indep1.chi.il.us   OR  clifto@indep1.uucp       |
|     WA9PDM     |                 Use whichever one works                     |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: paul@mtnmath.UUCP (Paul Budnik)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: A question on legal rights of software
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:50:28 GMT
Organization: Mountain Math Software, P. O. Box 2124, Saratoga. CA 95070

In article <8266@public.BTR.COM>, rem@public.BTR.COM (Robert E. Maas  rem@btr.com) writes:
> This is just my personal opinion, but it seems unethical to get paid by
> someone to do work for them, regardless of whether W-2 or 1099, whether
> employee or contract, then claim you own that work and re-sell that
> same work to somebody else, especially if you are charging your normal
> rate for the hours you spend on it.

Of course it would be unethical to sell the same *hours* worked to two
clients. However the question of who has what rights to the code is a matter
of contract and legal conventions, not ethics. Ethics only comes into play
if you are being dishonest with either client, are selling trade secrets
or proprietary information or violating the terms of your contract in
some other way. If you own rights to code from a previous assignment you
can get use it to negotiate a higher rate or be compensated in some other
way.

Paul Budnik
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: jfr@RedBrick.COM ()
Subject: Re: Getting your own benefits...(was Re: Proud of overworking...)
Organization: Red Brick Systems, Los Gatos, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 03:22:54 GMT

In article <ATAYLOR.92Nov2094429@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
><In article <1cn1oeINN3tb@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:
>[munch]
><      Incidentally, I've worked for companies for the past 8 years which
><   provide good fringe benefits, including family leave.  I've seen none
><   of the "evil" consequences which its detractors deem certain to occur.
><   And in case you're curious, I've never taken such leave, but people
><   around me have.
>
>	Sounds to me as if family leave is a good benefit for those
>	who need it; since not everyone does, why should it be
>	mandated by the government?

  I don't get this.  Family leave is potentially valuable to everyone.
  For instance, it permits taking leave to assist your parents, your
  brothers or sisters, etc. if they become seriously ill.  It is NOT
  solely for parents.  Of course, if none of your family ever becomes
  sick, it doesn't help you.  But then the government mandates both
  Social Security, unemployment insurance and worker's comp.  In all
  three cases, if you need it its great but if you don't it is worthless.
  That is the principal behind most insurance (i.e., spread the risk
  by having each member of the pool contribute a little bit to pay for
  the few people who actually have the problem).  With family leave,
  the issue has even less impact because their is NO requirement that
  the company pay for the leave (except for continuation of benefits).
  All they must do is guarantee your job during the term of the leave.
  I agree that there are difficulties in small companies (10 or so
  employees) with respect to job skills replacement during the leave
  period.  But those problems are always possible.   People leave
  jobs all the time and companies manage until they find replacements.
  With family leave, it is unlikely that they will need a replacement
  for a short leave and likely they can find some kind of part time
  or temporary fill-in for long ones, if they need one.

  Jon Rosen
From: hamon@a.cs.okstate.edu (HAMON SHARON ANN)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: NDI
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:40:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: a.1992Nov12.044032.11428
Distribution: usa
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater


Has anyone had any experience with Network Distributors Inc.?  
Are they legitimate?
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: the second interview
Date: 13 Nov 1992 15:21:48 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <crb2.721598278@Ra.MsState.Edu> crb2@Ra.MsState.Edu (Chad R. Berthelson) writes:
>plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Oct29.173427.5099@seas.smu.edu> reddy@seas.smu.edu (N. Urimindi) writes:
>>>>2) If a company is willing to pay to fly someone in for an interview, how
>>>>likely is it that they will eventually extend an offer to that person?
>>>
>>>I would say that your chances of getting the job are 90%, because it's
>>>your 2nd interview with the same company.
>
>I just came back from a second interview (plant trip), out of state..
>BUT I know there is 1 position open and 4 people where plant tripped.
>
>that means that all things equal, I have a 25% chance of that job 
>(and that assumes that one of the four WILL get the job, which
>I am sure is probably the case).  That's a long way from 90%...
...
>Chad

   Uh, Chad, I didn't write any of the above.  In fact, I pointed out
exactly what you did.  Please be more careful with your attributions.
I don't want potential employers to think I'm an idiot. :-)
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Xref: sparky misc.jobs.misc:7578 misc.jobs.contract:4025
From: sgupta@informix.com (Shailesh Gupta)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.contract
Subject: Immediate Opening in bay area for X-Windows/Motif Programmer
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:19:49 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: InfoSoft, Inc.
Originator: sgupta@gomer


	+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	InfoSoft has immediate opening available for a software
	engineer having extensive Motif/X-Windows programming
	experience. Thorough knowledge of X-libs and color maps
	required for this position. BSCS and 3 yrs of software
	development experience desired.

	Fax your resume or Call:

	Fred Hubbard
	InfoSoft Inc.
	20573 Stevens Creek Blvd. Suite 200
	Cupertino, CA - 95014

	Tel: (408) 255-4077
	Fax: (408) 255-4078

	+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

		PLS DO NOT REPLY BY E-MAIL TO THIS ACCOUNT
		PLS DO NOT REPLY BY E-MAIL TO THIS ACCOUNT

	 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul Olson)
Subject: Re: A question on legal rights of software
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Mission Operations and Data Systems
Date:  5 Nov 1992 08:04 EST  

In article <1992Nov3.124344.4669@dmc.com>, munroe@dmc.com (Dick Munroe) writes...
> 
>Generally, the copyright belongs to the people who contract for the work.  I
>reserve the copyright of all of my work pending final payment at which point I
>transfer the copyright to the people who contracted for the work.  That way I
>have a lever in case we have a payment issue.  This can be MESSY to negotiate
>so don't do it if you're faint of heart or REALLY need the work.  You have to
>walk away from a number of apparently lucrative pieces of work in order to make
>it stick.
>-- 
>Dick Munroe				Internet: munroe@dmc.com
>Doyle Munroe Consultants, Inc.		UUCP: ...uunet!thehulk!munroe
>267 Cox St.				Office: (508) 568-1618
>Hudson, Ma.				FAX: (508) 562-1133
> 

How ethical/legal (I know, oxymoron!)  would it be to have the code disable
itself if the final payment was not received?  As long as the customer data
remains intact, is there anything illegal about doing this, similar to what
the Brigette Fonda character did in Single White Female?

       __  Paul J. Olson - VAX Systems Manager & Resident Amiga Addict 
  C=  ///  Voice -     301/286-4246, 301725-5501                       
 __  ///   DECnet-    DSTL86::OLSON                                    
 \\\///    Internet - olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov                       
  \XX/     Disclaimer: Statements in my messages are wholely my own.   
  AMIGA    "[the universe originated] as a quantum fluctuation         
            of absolutely nothing." - Guth & Steinhardt                    
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: paul@unitek.com
Subject: Macintosh Contract (N. Cal)
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: MAC, C, Application Porting
Organization: Unitek Systems
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:24:32 GMT

                 Immediate MAC Contract Opportunity

Unitek Systems, a Software Consulting House, in Nothern California, 
has a contract opportunity for a MAC/C programmer.  This is a 3+ months 
contract to work on our client's site in Santa Clara.

Requirements:  Minimum 3 Years of C Programming on MAC.  Familiarity 
with TCP/IP and/or SQL is desired, but not a must.

For immediate consideration please call, Fax or email your resume
to Paul Afshar at:

         Fax: (510) 790-2276               Unitek Systems                 
         Tel: (510) 795-2878            5845 Jarvis Ave. #150         
       Email: paul@unitek.com             Newark, CA 94560
From: fyl@ssc.com (Phil Hughes)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
Subject: troff contract work
Date: 4 Nov 92 20:31:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: ssc.1992Nov04.203137.3203
Distribution: pnw
Organization: SSC, Inc.,  Seattle, WA

The Write Stuff has a need for a person to do some troff work to complete
four manuals.  The work is underway but the current person working on it
has other commitments later this month.  What is needed is someone
familiar with troff to start working on the project in the next week or
so.  I don't have details on the amount of work involved but would expect
it to be in the range of 40-100 hours of work.

There is a system here at SSC where this work can be done (which is why I
am posting this -- we are not doing the work).  If you are interested,
call Beryl Gorbman at The Write Stuff.  Phone is (206) 524-4423.
-- 
Phil Hughes, SSC, Inc. P.O. Box 55549, Seattle, WA 98155  (206)FOR-UNIX
>>> Publishers of pocket references for UNIX, C, VI, Emacs, Ksh, MS-DOS, ... <<<
     ...!ssc!fyl or fyl@ssc.com            (206)527-3385
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: bhayden@teal.csn.org (Bruce Hayden)
Subject: Re: A question on legal rights of software
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 14:15:57 GMT

eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager) writes:

>In article 5NOV199208041521@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov, olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov (Paul Olson) writes:
>>
>>How ethical/legal (I know, oxymoron!)  would it be to have the code disable
>>itself if the final payment was not received?  As long as the customer data
>>remains intact, is there anything illegal about doing this, similar to what
>>the Brigette Fonda character did in Single White Female?

The general consenus in the computer law community in Colo. is that 
even if you can legally do it, it is very, very stupid. There are too
many ways to screw up. And if you do, the damages can be astronomical.

I seem to remember an occurance a year or so ago where a contractor
disabled code for a cosmetics mfg (Revlon?) over a dispute concerning
payment. The disabler backed down almost immediately. Why? Because
of the damages involved. Shutting down a production line for even a
day or two was extremely dangerous.

Much better to do what some companies do: inform the customer up front
that the software will be disabled automatically after a set period
of time (bearing some relation to the contract) if not periodically
updated. Thus, you only get the key to reset the disablement when you
pay. _NOTE_ this must be prominent in the contract, and even so is
still somewhat dangerous. 

NEVER NEVER disable a program if such disablement is not 
prominently disclosed in the contract.

Bruce Hayden
bhayden@csn.org
(303) 758-8400

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: steff@dxcern.cern.ch (Morten Steffensen)
Subject: contract skeleton?
Organization: CERN European Laboratory for Particle Physics
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:50:10 GMT


Hello Netters,

I'm starting as a consultant in the beginning of next year. As my 
experience is strictly limited to  solving technical problems, I've got
a request:

I would be a happy man if someone experienced in contracting, would 
send me or publish to the net, a skeleton for a contract, including 
issues as copyrights etc..


--
Morten Steffensen
Division for Accelerator Technology
European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
CH-1211 Geneve 23
Switzerland

E-Mail:  steff@dxcern.cern.ch

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Small Company Seeking Contracts and Resume.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 05:15:58 GMT

ComPro Advantage Inc. is a starting company formed by
highly motivated individuals. We are seeking computer programming 
contracts from industry and business.

The company has Ph. D.'s from prominent universities with
background in computer science, mathematics, business and
engineering.  We have worked for many large industrial and 
business programming projects. In depth understanding of 
computer architecture. Especially good in parallel processing, 
graphics, computational geometry, and file management. Excellent 
programming style and documentation. C, C++, COBOL, FORTRAN, 
relational database and network protocols. We will make your
project economical and affordable. We will satisfy all of your 
demands. We are efficient and always on time.

Interested in industrial code design, testing, and parallelization, 
business software design, database for trading and financial system,
data communication and graphical presentation.

If your company has problems but do not want to hire permanent
employee for unpredictable economic climate, contact us
at (317)-328-9842 or (317)-274-9745.

The company is also seeking resumes from motived individuals
who would like to join our team. 


email linli@bigsun.iupui.edu

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: richv@teal.csn.org (Richard Verruso)
Subject: Analyst Modler Needed
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:40:08 GMT


Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
From: croyer@atg.amex-trs.com (Chuck Royer)
Subject: UNIX/C, Database position in Colorado Springs
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:08:40 GMT
Reply-To: croyer@atg.amex-trs.com
Organization: Computer Horizons Corporation
Keywords: UNIX C Database
Followup-To: poster


-- 
IMMEDIATE position for "UNIX guru" in Colorado Springs, CO.  "C" and
database experience necessary.  Must be able to start by 11/23/92.

If interested send e-mail with phone number to:

	croyer@atg.amex-trs.com

If you have an ASCII version of your resume, please include it with the
e-mail.


P.S.  I am NOT the recruiter for this position.  I will forward all 
	information to the recruiter who will contact you and provide
	more details.



**********************************************************
Chuck Royer
Computer Horizons Corporation
On contract to: American Express Advanced Technology Group
Internet: croyer@atg.amex-trs.com
Voice: (602) 548-6020
**********************************************************
From: clifto@indep1.UUCP (Cliff Sharp)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
Subject: Re: A question on legal rights of software
Date: 7 Nov 92 21:22:28 GMT
Organization: as little as possible

In article <1992Nov5.015914.29670@eagercon.com> eager@eagercon.com writes:
>Think of it as if someone built a fence for your house.  When you pay for the
>work, it is yours.  It doesn't remain the workman's property.  Same with
>consulting.  If you do work and are paid for it, it becomes the property of
>the person paying for the work.

   The fence is a much easier-resolved question.  First off, the parts they
sold you are exclusively yours (the posts, the screening, etc.) and that's
irreconcilable.  The labor they did for you is open to question (like the
labor we do for clients), but it's a pretty sure thing that if you try to
duplicate that labor it won't be as easy as copying a floppy disk; from
what I understand of Illinois law (I am _not_ an attorney, just a person
with an interest), if they let you watch them do it and you learn enough
from watching to be able to do the job yourself (without copying their
disk files, of course), then too bad for them.  At least that's the way
it was explained to me when I was a TV serviceman, by RCA Service's legal
department.
   How to take old routines I wrote in the '70s and keep my own copyright
on them (with "shop rights" and contractual obligations out of the way) is
still a mystery to me, since most contract shops don't and won't show me
copies of their contracts with the clients.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   Cliff Sharp  |      clifto@indep1.chi.il.us   OR  clifto@indep1.uucp       |
|     WA9PDM     |                 Use whichever one works                     |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: Conrad_Geiger@NeXT.com (Conrad Geiger - Manager, International NeXT User Groups)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract
Subject: [Corrected] NeXTSTEP Development Projects (TX, OK, CA, NY, MA, D.C)
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:00:49 GMT
Reply-To: user_groups@next.com

NeXTSTEP Development Positions Open -  Will Train
(Contract and Full Time)

If you recognize as we do that NeXT will be the chosen development
platform of the 90's and are looking to ride that wave, you will want
to contact The Maddox Group in Dallas, Texas. We currently have
permanent positions in Texas that will hire OOP'S programmers with
any OOP'S experience to work on exciting NeXTSTEP Development Projects.
We have additional NeXT openings that we are trying to fill in...

Oklahoma, Connecticut, New York, California, District of Columbia,
and Massachusetts. 

In addition we have contract opening in all these
states and plan to continue Networking till we have positions
everywhere. For more information contact ...

The Maddox Group
Phone: 214-341-2554  (PLEASE NOTE CORRECTED NUMBER)
Fax your resume to 214-341-3041.

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.contract