HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:51:48 GMT

In article <92349.074218DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
}In article <1992Dec13.125454.10756@genie.slhs.udel.edu>,
}starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) says:
}
}>Here we have the great welfare-statist contradiction: no one can afford
}>the free market, so we must have statism.  How statism will make us able
}>to afford the same costs is left unexplainable.
}
}We also have the free-marketeers blind faith that markets always cost less
}than or equal to public solutions.

When you can show me where I made this claim, I'll gladly qualify it with
considerations for transaction costs.  Until then, please refrain from
putting straw men in my place, attacking them, and pretending you've
defeated my claims.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: tcox@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Tony Cox - (415)926-3105)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
Date: 15 Dec 92 11:18:15 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <92350.115323DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>, <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> 
> Tony wants me to define "private market" and you [Tim] want me to define
> "work". Who am I, Mr. Webster? :)
> 

   Dennis! You are awful!
   I havn't kept copies of all your responses, so I cannot pull
   references out to tease you with. But you have asked me on several
   occasions why I think a private market can work. The only reason
   why I would like you to define the term is so that I can answer the
   question.

   Dear Mr Webster was probably too excited when he wrote his entry
   for "private parts" that his shaking hands upset the card tray and
   "private market" didn't make it in.

   In any case, if you are unfamiliar with the term yourself, perhaps
   you would like to define exactly what you think constitutes a
   `market breakdown', and then Tim and I can try to convince you how
   a free market solution would mitigate these effects.

Tony Cox, Stanford, CA
Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:343 sci.med:22471 sci.med.physics:509
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:32:08 EST
From: <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
 <92347.091708DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> <1992Dec13.125157.10613@genie.slhs.udel.edu>

In article <1992Dec13.125157.10613@genie.slhs.udel.edu>,
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) says:
>
>In article <92347.091708DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>}>   o - Medical Licensing.
>}
>}I don't want to get into this mess again.  How does this prevent
>}insurers from offering a profitable product?
>
>It doesn't.  It prevents them from purchasing a free-market product.

The focus of this thread (at least the last time I checked) is why
private insurance is not working very well in the U.S.


>}>   o - Legal framework preventing disclaiming liability for injury,
>}>   forcing participants to play the medical malpractice lottery when
>}>   all they want is health care.
>}
>}Studies of the malpractice market show that out of 100 actionable incidents
>}that occur in the hospital, only 10 will ever result in a suit and 80 percent
>}of those will be settled.  People voluntarily are disclaiming liability for
>}injury.
>
>Then why should contractual limitation of liability be disallowed by the
>Supreme Court?

Maybe because there is a real difference between a person undergoing a
treatment while retaining the option to sue but deciding not to do so after
the fact, and signing your right to sue away at a time when much of the
negotiating power is in the hands of the physician (sign this or I don't
do it).

>}>   o - Drug licensing, FDA, etc. etc.
>}
>}Less than 10 percent of national health expenditures
>
>Including opportunity costs?

You have the complete data on all costs including opp. costs for all
aspects of health care?  If not, then you are just playing games.


>}Tony, I know the history of American health insurance.  Go back before
>}Medicare.  Go back before the IRS ruling on tax deduction.  When have
>}private health insurers ever shown themselves able to provide a product
>}which provides significant risk reduction to a large portion of
>}the population at reasonable cost?
>
>Definitions of "significant," "large," and "reasonable," please?  Their
>justifications?

The thread is discussing whether or not private health insurance can
and does work.


>}I wasn't aware I was talking straw men.  I was describing the current
>}conditions in the private health insurance market.  I am curious why you
>}think a private market will work in health insurance.
>}
>}When and where has a free market in health insurance ever worked well?
>
>When in doubt for an example of laissez-faire, try Hong Kong: I don't even
>know if Hong Kong has laissez-faire in health insurance, does anyone else?

Hong Kong, I believe has an NHS type system, but I am not sure of that.

Dennis G. Shea, Penn State
<<DISCLAIMER>>
Ain't nobody's bizness but my own. I'll be happy to accept all
the credit for anything I've written.  It's funny, however, how
employers only acknowledge the profitable ideas.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: dac@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (David A Cooke)
Subject: Re: Jews denounce Israeli racism
Organization: City College of New York - Science Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:02:44 GMT

	Regarding the last few posts from "The Center for Policy
Research":
	
	Would the anti-Zionists/anti-Semites kindly take it to a
group more appropriate for your selective reporting, like talk.politics.
middleeast or perhaps sci.skeptic?  Thank you.

		-David Cooke


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 David Aaron Cooke  | (The Usual Disclaimers) |  dac@sci.ccny.cuny.edu 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tcox@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Tony Cox - (415)926-3105)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:13:35 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec16.112839.27039@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
> In article <1992Dec15.185954.19681@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
> }starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
> }>
> }>Yep.  And I hear it's SOP for these foreigners to be moved to the head 
> }>of the line to provide good word-of-mouth for statist medicine when they
> }>return home.
> }
> }Most Canadians are glad that their insurance will cover them when they
> }have to come to the more-populous United States for highly specialized
> }treatment.
> 
> Am I the only one who can't figure out the relevance of this?

   No.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Objections to National Health Plan (Was: HIAA and Reform)
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:08:26 GMT

rjv@a2.cim.cdc.com (Rene Valdes) writes:
>tcox@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Tony Cox - (415)926-3105) writes:
>|>
>|>    What makes you think that federal health insurance will work...?
>
>The fact that it works rather well in Canada, in France, in Germany,
>in Great Britain, in Sweden, etc.  In fact, all industrialized countries
>except the USA and South Africa enjoy some form of national health
>care system.

Canada, France and Germany have health insurance; Britain, Sweden and
Italy have socialized medicine which is like American HMO's that we
Canadians, French and Germans turn up our noses at ...

South Africans do have a de facto universal health insurance for the
whites, as most white males have been involved with the military and
are in the militia through their lives.

>As Perot put it, if these countries have a health care system that
>works better than ours, that yields better results at lower cost,
>why don't we just copy their system?  Sure, we need to adapt some
>details to specific American conditions, but the gist of his thought
>was that we should stop pretending that we can find our own better
>way of doing everything when good solutions are staring us in the eye.

In Canada, France and Germany, our health insurance is geographically
sensitive.  We're divided by province in Canada, and we have far fewer
people than California (but a lot more territory).  In France, it's
in-Paris and out-of-Paris (you gotta know France to understand that).
In Germany, it's federal but rates vary by district ... there are
other differences between America and the three next-richest G7
nations.  You've got to figure them out ... learn about our systems,
repeating propoganda (not you Rene) is not productive.  Then go figure.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Support NAFTA
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			 Eat Mexican  (El Teddy's ad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 12:51:57 GMT

In article <92347.091708DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> <DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
}>   o - Medical Licensing.
}
}I don't want to get into this mess again.  How does this prevent
}insurers from offering a profitable product?

It doesn't.  It prevents them from purchasing a free-market product.

}>   o - Legal framework preventing disclaiming liability for injury,
}>   forcing participants to play the medical malpractice lottery when
}>   all they want is health care.
}
}Studies of the malpractice market show that out of 100 actionable incidents
}that occur in the hospital, only 10 will ever result in a suit and 80 percent
}of those will be settled.  People voluntarily are disclaiming liability for
}injury.

Then why should contractual limitation of liability be disallowed by the
Supreme Court?

}>   o - Drug licensing, FDA, etc. etc.
}
}Less than 10 percent of national health expenditures

Including opportunity costs?

}Tony, I know the history of American health insurance.  Go back before
}Medicare.  Go back before the IRS ruling on tax deduction.  When have
}private health insurers ever shown themselves able to provide a product
}which provides significant risk reduction to a large portion of
}the population at reasonable cost?

Definitions of "significant," "large," and "reasonable," please?  Their
justifications?

}I wasn't aware I was talking straw men.  I was describing the current
}conditions in the private health insurance market.  I am curious why you
}think a private market will work in health insurance.
}
}When and where has a free market in health insurance ever worked well?

When in doubt for an example of laissez-faire, try Hong Kong: I don't even
know if Hong Kong has laissez-faire in health insurance, does anyone else?

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Marc Gabriel)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Lyme Disease E-mail Network...
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:11:15 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

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Unfortunately, many in the medical and political arenas have not given this
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However, as the number of cases rise, doctors on the front lines are
discovering that LD is more serious that previously suspected, requiring longer
treatment therapies and more complex combinations of medicines.  The battle
lines have been drawn.

And the battles continue at LD conferences, and in the various State
legislatures where insurance companies, terrified at the high cost of LD, are
attempting to short change patients.  Estimates show that the average cost of
treatment for chronic LD patients ranges from $60,000 to $100,000 per patient.

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-- 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
             Marc C. Gabriel '93    -  U.C. Box 545  -
               (215) 882-0138        Lehigh University
              mcg2@Lehigh.EDU       Bethlehem, PA 18015
                Compu$erve: >internet:mcg2@Lehigh.edu
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I'm still thinking about the witty one-liner I'm supposed to put here.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: HIAA and Reform
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:31:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.184737.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> tcox@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (Tony Cox - (415)926-3105) writes:
}   I think to start my reply, I should point out that there are two
}   distinct pieces of `information' we are considering here.
}
}   First, there is the information which _I_ am using to select my HC
}   provider.
}
}   Second, there is the product which my HC provider is returning me
}   after selection. Part of this is material (an inoculation, say);
}   part informational ("You'll die soon if you don't stop smoking").
}
}   I think that the information _you_ are referring to is the latter.
}   (..the provider has an informational advantage over me...)

If this is true (I've been unable to decrypt "information asymmetry," either!),
then this, to be colloquial, is why God invented second opinions.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Subject: veg/abortion
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:23:50 GMT

lydia@tarsal.dsg.ti.com (lydia middendorf ) writes:

>Exchange between Rosemary, Tod and Jenny deleted  (artical 10054)

>Jenny says:

>Dripping sarcasm aside, I must say if men could get pregnant things would be a 
>lot
>different.		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^


>I say: This is very true. If men could get pregnant, not only would abortions
>be legal....they would also be FREE!!!!!!!


Yeah, and if women had male genetalia, maybe they'd quit bitching about it when
you leave the toilet seat up. :-)

But if men got pregnant, then one thing is also probably true; at least then men
would have some input with regards to whether or not their children were
killed in the womb.  (No smileys here, I'm afraid...)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: PETA in hot water
Organization: WP Group
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 04:41:58 GMT

From article <1992Dec18.203251.875@samba.oit.unc.edu>, by itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken):
Russell Lawrence writes:
>>Your pretense that nutritionists ought to have a monopoly on the 
>>discussion of the medical impact of dietary regimes doesn't make 
>>much sense to me.  
> 
> Russell, Ill ask you again. (though I doubt I will recieve an answer.). 
> If you needed legal advise on criminal law would you consult a divorce
> attorney?
> If you we're concerned about the stability of a mutual fund would you
> preffer the advice of a mana that directs mutual funds for a living or of
> a tax accountant?
> 
> If you were interested in matters of nutrition would you consult a
> nutrition expert or a psychiatrist?

You're assuming that expertise is compartmentalized.  I know at 
least one psychiatrist who could give you superb advice on 
mutual funds.  And I know at least two dentists who've invested 
significant time and energy mastering the scientific literature 
related to nutrition, primarily for the purpose of debunking 
quack theories.  

Do you really believe that medical doctors are incapable of 
reading the literature and hence, incapable of commenting 
intelligently on its significance?  

>>And Dr. Benjamin Spock offered his opinion.  And Dr. Frank Oski offered
>>his opinion.  And Dr. Neil Barnard offered his opinion.  
> 
> What opinions are you refering to?  As I recall Dr. Spock emphisized that
> his opinion on the safety of milk consumption only applied to infants.
> I am unaware of Dr. Oski's opinion.  
> However, Dr. Barnard extrapolated recommendation for infants to adults.

Who says?  Let's assume that it's inadvisable to feed cow's milk 
to infants because of colic, intestinal bleeding, iron deficiencies, 
BSA's role as a trigger of diabetes, etc.  Would this imply 
that milk consumption is safe for adults?  If I'm not mistaken, 
Barnard focuses on the fat and protein content of milk (as well 
as allergies and lactose intolerance) when advising adults to cut 
back or eliminate milk consumption.  Given the available 
evidence, it doesn't seem reasonable to describe his 
recommendations as an extrapolation.    BTW, Dean Ornish makes similar
recommendations in his books on nutrition... all based on studies
involving adult subjects.

>>Having affiliations with groups like PETA and PCRM doesn't belie a man's 
>>claim to have interests in scientific research.   You yourself have
>>admitted that Henry Heimlich is a scientist of significant repute, yet
>>he has strong ties with PCRM.
> 
> Does he?

So I've heard.   On the whole, it's a mistake to assume that a person
who's opposed to some animal research is necessarily opposed to all
animal research.

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young)
Subject: Re: Human motivation and true altruism 
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:50:43 GMT

In article <BzBC1s.L9w@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:
>Rich Young writes:
>ry> When you answer my question, I'll consider addressing yours.  
>
>Russell Lawrence writes:
>rl> I already did.  If all behavior is selfishly motivated, how do you
>rl> explain the initial development of taboos?
>
>From article <1992Dec15.133412.16980@pixel.kodak.com>, by young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young):
>ry> You didn't answer my question, you asked another one.  I asked for
>ry> specific information: one example of a human activity that CANNOT be
>ry> explained by the two numbered principles above.
>ry> 
>ry> A series of questions and pronouncements concerning "guilt" do not
>ry> meet the criteria.  The answer needed is a specific human activity,
>ry> not a discussion of "guilt."  Quit dancing around the campfire.
>
>Amazing.  Please explain why you refuse to consider ethical thinking
>to be a form of human activity?   [...]

	Another question?  Which is it to be: development of taboos, or
	ethical thinking...or something else?  A simple declarative sentence
	will suffice for your answer.


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken)
Subject: Re: ALF policy on violence
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:39:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.171436.16828@zooid.guild.org> rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>
>From _New_Internationalist_, January 1991, "Terrorists or altruists?",
>p13.
>
>"...The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) newsletters explained quite clearly that
>there were no leaders, there was no structure to refer back to.  You just did
>what seemed right - providing you kept to the ALF guidelines.  That was - and
>still is - that you did no harm to humans or animals. ... I don't approve of
>using bombs, though.  They are too dangerous and innacurate.  I think the
>people who carried out the bomb attacks in Bristol ... may have been ex-ALF
>activists.  But by causing harm to humans they strayed from the guidelines -
>and so they would not be part of the ALF now.  Or perhaps they were people who
>had nothing to do with the ALF.  Who knows? ..."


What's your point Rosemary?
-- 
The opinions expressed here are my own.  **   Knowledge goes on forever! 
Which is to say they belong to me.       **   Spelling stops at the 
And these opinions, which belong to me,  **   end of the page.
are mine.                                *******************************
From: linan@argon.berkeley.edu (Mike Linan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: ALF policy on violence
Date: 15 Dec 1992 22:38:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: argon.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec15.145233.14695@zooid.guild.org> rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
In article <1992Dec13.203951.11903@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken) writes:

>>What's your point Rosemary?

>Just that contrary to the impression a lot of posts have given, ALF has a
>policy against violence.


Yeah right.  And politicians like Reagan and Bush and all those who bounced 
checks on taxpayers money are public servants.  What a joke.  Next you'll be
claiming that while Dahmer was dismembering and eating his guests, he really
had a policy against cannibalism.

Mike Linan









Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals

>/ hpcss01:talk.politics.animals / harrison@adm.csc.ncsu.edu (Lou Harrison) /  3:52 am  Dec 11, 1992 /
>I'm reposting this to the rec.pet.* and talk.politics.animals since it

3 pages of drivel mercifully expunged...
 
>Thanks in advance for your support.  Act now before there are any more
>like sunny and hoppy.
>
>						Lou Harrison

For a moment there I thought you might be carrying on about your kid rather
than a bird.  You really ought to give serious consideration to realigning
your priorities. This is a bird your talking about here.  A creature with
a brain the size of a BB and arguably not even aware of its own existance.
Moreover, anyone who lavishes a $20 vet visit on a $2 bird is dumber than
a sack of hammers.  

Terry
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals