From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 9 Oct 92 01:02:03 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Oct7.182128.18902@linus.mitre.org> zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell) writes:
|In article <70217@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>
|>Some have been presented on the net and I presented some from a book
|>summary of Dr. D. James Kennedy's book _Why I Believe_ and here they are:
|>
|>[8] Why I believe in Christ
|>
|>Dr. Kennedy states that the evidence for Christ is 
|>overwhelming.  For those who honest seek the truth there is 
|>abundant evidence.
|>
|>Some say Jesus never really existed - he was a myth.  
|>Consider this - Historian J. Gilchrist Lawson says: "The 
|>legendary, or mythical, theory of Christ's existence is not 
|>held by any one worthy of the name scholar.  The evidences 
|>of Christ existence are more than for any other event in 
|>ancient history."  
|
|I've said before, there are several historical figures from the first
|century and before for whom overwhelming evidence exists, particularly
|compared to the trickle of evidence for a historical Christ.  It is
|absurd that a "historian" could make this statement.  To quote
|Professor Martin Noth from his _History of Israel_: "World history at
|the time took no notice of him [Jesus of Nazareth]".

The encyclopedia I looked at this afternoon had 10 pages on Jesus Christ,
but it only had about 2 pages on Julius Caesar and associated Juliuses.

At that time Jesus and his followers were not touching the world,
but look at them soon after (Paul in Rome) and today.  He surely touches
world history today.   On the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) there
were 3,000 converts to Christianity and soon after there were a
total of 5,000 (Acts 4:4.)

|>One reason we know this is that the Bible 
|>tells us, but more than that we have support from the 
|>following secular historians and writers of antiquity:
|
|I don't think Dr. Kennedy or J. Lawson checked out thier sources very
|well nor did they expect anyone to do so.  Let's take a look at their
|list of "secular historians and writers of antiquity":

Generally you don't controvert any of the following, for Dr.  Kennedy 
said that these men gave cursory evidence that was generally in line 
with the Bible's account.  If you'd like, I'll send you the 
mailing address for Dr. Kennedy's ministry.  I quoted Dr. Kenndy's
list and I, myself, cannot readily comment on these men.

|>Tacitus, the Roman historian; 
|
|Explains the word "Christians" in his _Annals_ (written AD 115-117):
|"Christ, from whom they derive their name, was condemned to death by 
|the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of the Emperor Tiberius."

Not bad for supporting the Bible's claim.

|>Suetonius; [AD 65-135] 
|
|Says in his account of the life of Claudius (emperor from AD 41-54) "He
|drove the Jews out of Rome who were rioting because of Chrestus." It is
|not at all clear he refers to Christ by name since he is more likely to
|mean "christos" - The Anointed One - Greek translation of the Hebrew
|"messias".

Who does the Bible proclaim Jesus to be?  Is it not The Christ, The Messiah?

|>Pliny the younger; [AD 61-113]
|
|Documents his witness to the practice of Christianity while on
|appointment in Asia Minor.

A pretty early notice of the spread of Christianity - similar to 
what is record about Paul's missionary trips.

|From here on, the list looks like a random list of writers with
|Roman sounding names!

They are - so as to give some Roman input to the situation.

|>Epictetus; [AD 55-135]
|
|Stoic philosopher.  I don't think he wrote about Christ or
|Christianity, but his works greatly influenced early Christians and
|were read by Origen, St. Augustine, and St. Gregory of Nazianus.

I agree with your statement of "I don't think", not that I don't
know that Epictetus wrote of Christ, but neither do you know he
didn't.

|>Lucian; [AD 120-180+]
|
|Rhetorician.  Satirized foibles and parodied myths and even ventured
|into Science Fiction.  Don't know of anything he said about Christ,
|but he would be a very appropriate spokesman for Christianity!

Same.

|>Aristides; [BC 530-468]
|
|You may want to check if there is another Aristides after Christ!
|
|>Galenus; Lampridius; 
|
|Can't find anything about them.
|
|>DioCassius; [AD 163-229+]
|
|Started his history of Rome in AD 229.  Only Volumes 36-54 covering
|68-10BC survive (doubtful any references to Christ here).
|
|>Hinnerius; Libanius; 
|
|Can't find anything about them.
|
|>Ammianus; [330-398AD]
|
|Wrote history of Rome.  Only surviving volumes cover 353-378AD.

The above comments neither support or denounce.

|>Marcellinus; 
|
|You need to be more specific here.  I assume we can eliminate Gaius
|Claudias Marcellinus (consul in 50BC) and the two Marcus Claudius
|Marcellinus (BC 270-208 and BC 43-23).  You are left with the Pope St.
|Marcellinus (Died AD 304), Pope Marcellinus I (Died AD 309) and other
|popes.  Odd that popes are included in your list of secular historians
|documenting Jesus!
|
|>Eunapius; 
|
|Can't find anything about him.
|
|>Zosimus. [died AD 418]
|
|Pope and Saint.  Unbiased historical proof of Jesus from a fifth
|century pope?
|
|Now starts a list of writers who specifically wrote against
|Christianity:
|
|>Lucian,
|
|Be more specific.  The satirist and sophist (AD 120-200) or St.
|Lucian of Antioch (AD 240-312).
|
|>Celsus, [first century AD]
|
|Aulus Cornelius Celsus wrote on Agriculture, Philosophy, Military
|Science, Medicine, and Jurisprudence.  Only his works on medicine
|survive.  Is this where the reference to Christ and Christians is?
|
|>Porphyry, [AD 234-305]
|
|A Neoplatist philosopher and student of Plotinus.
|
|>Hierocles, 
|
|Can't find anything about him.
|
|>and Julian the Apostate [AD 332-363]
|
|Roman Emperor who attempted to redirect the recently Christianized
|empire towards its Pagan heritage.  Called "the Apostate" for his
|rejection of Christianity.
|
|>have written whole books against Christianity.  

I'd have to refer you to Dr. Kenndy for the above references,
if you'd like.

|This is the ultimate in irony that someones writings against
|Christianity are turned into more proof that Jesus existed!  Some day,
|Christians may turn my words here into further proof of Jesus!

Not likely.  Writings against are enough if they give evidence to
confirm the events, but deny the reasons given for them.

|Dr. Kennedy's long list of ancient "secular" writers providing proof of
|Jesus comes down to a couple of historical statements about Christians
|but almost nothing about Jesus.

As was the purpose.

|>Pontius Pilate wrote of his activities with 
|>Jesus - "he described Christ's miracles - he tells of Herod 
|>delivering Jesus over to him and the crowd making a great 
|>uproar to have Christ tried and so he [Pilate] ordered him 
|>crucified, but first had him scourged, although he found 
|>nothing against him.  Much less he records that that day the 
|>sun went dark and the moon turned as if to blood." [The 
|>Ante-Nicene Fathers vol 8]  
|
|I've told you before that these are blatantly falsified letters.  They
|are only traced back to the sixth or seventh century. They contradict
|each other and known history.  I included a long description of what is
|in those letters that you should have read!  No thoughtful Christian
|historian will attempt to attach any validity to them.

I read your comments.  Again, you said they agreed with the
Bible, correct, or at least sounded like the Bible's account.
The purpose was to show that other non-Christians (i.e., the
Roman leaders) had comments on the trial (evidence) of Jesus.

|>Another writer, Thallus, wrote about the sun failure to give 
|>light. 
|
|So, I've seen this too during a storm or when there is smoke or
|particles in the air.  Was there another Mesiah being killed? 

Again, true, but the event that could have been observed was
documented.  He would have had to be at the crucifixion to see it.

|>A Syrian writer, Mara bar-Serapion, in about A.D. 
|>73, wrote to his son warning not to do evil like killing 
|>godly men and he also "What advantage did the Jews gain from 
|>executing their wise King?..." 
|
|This man may have encountered early Christians.  I assume he did
|not claim to be an eye witness?

Correct.

|>Julian the Apostate's book 
|>aimed at destroying Christianity confirms that Jesus was 
|>born in the reign of Augustus at the taxing time of 
|>Chrenius.  He even affirms the authenticity of the four 
|>gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.) 
|
|This I cannot believe.  If Julian confirms that Jesus lived and that
|the gospels are authentic, how can he write against Christianity?  Dr.
|Kenedy is putting pro-Christian words into a dead non-Christian's
|mouth!  It's more likely that Julian gave a background of 
|Christian beliefs in his book but did not affirm its authenticity.

He can write against Christianity by denying the power by which Jesus
did things and the fact that Jesus rose from the dead.  
 
|>The Old Testament contains some 2,000 predictive prophecies 
|>- not a few lucky guesses.  These prophecies are detailed.  
|>They often predict things that were not likely to come to 
|>pass - the very opposite of human expectations.  In many 
|>cases the writer had already died and even the writings had 
|>been translated into Greek before some of the prophecies 
|>came to fulfillment.
|>
|>Examples: The cities of Tyre and Sidon, two great cities on 
|>the Mediterranean Sea.  Exekiel prophesied that Tyre would 
|>be destroyed and never be rebuilt nor inhabited.  Sidon was 
|>to be brought down, but continue to be inhabited.  Sidon was 
|>attacked and many killed, but still exists to this day.
|
|Predicting that a city at that time will eventually be distoryed is
|like predicting that if you leave your laundry out on the cloths line
|it will eventually get wet again!

Is it like predicting one of either Los Angeles and San Fransico 
would be destroyed and not rebuilt, but the other one destoryed
and rebuilt.  

|>Tyre on the other hand was at its height at the time of the 
|>prophecy.  It was to be destroyed, made like a rock, have 
|>its building stones thrown into the sea, and be built no 
|>more.  Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon fought against the city for 
|>thirteen years and took it.  Many former inhabitants fled 
|>for an island and made a new city of Tyre.  Two hundred and 
|>fifty years later the city walls still stood, but Alexander 
|>the Great came and took the old buildings and dumped them 
|>into the sea to build a bridge to the new Tyre, in order to 
|>take it.  He did - the old city was stripped.  Today the old 
|>Tyre is like a rock and a place to spread fishing nets to 
|>dry.
|
|If the only thing you believe is the Bible, you may note that somebody
|named Jesus passed through Tyre (Matt 15:21).  At that time Tyre had a
|larger population than Jerusalem and would have been the largest city
|Jesus is said to have visited.  Tyre prospers long after that and is
|still inhabited today.

Tyre's population today is about 23,000 (1980), but was about
40,000 at its destruction by Alexander the Great.  10,000 were
killed and 30,000 sold as slaves.  Is Tyre the same city or does
it hold the same name and sit down the coast?

|>The two cities of Samaria and Jerusalem were spoke about and 
|>Jerusalem was to be attacked, destroyed, have its people 
|>carried away captive, and have its walls destroyed, but then 
|>it was to have its walls rebuilt.  
|
|Safe bet at that time in history.

True, but to distinguish between the two (Tyre and Sidon) is a
very good pick, wouldn't you say?

|If any of these cities had never been destroyed, you could just
|say "hasn't happened yet, but it will".  This prophecy stuff is
|fun, let's all join in!  I predict a new and equally absurd religion
|will arise and gain thousands of former Christian converts!

Oh.

|Nearly all of Dr. D. James Kennedy's statements you've given from _Why
|I Believe_ can easily be proven false by anyone with an encyclopedia!

I looked in the encyclopedia today.  It confirmed all of the 
prophesy, except the fact that it would not be rebuilt.  Again,
I ask is town with the same name the same as the original town?

|I advise you to throw his book in the trash!  I would have advised you
|to go to a used book store and see if you can use his book as a down
|payment on a real history book, but I would not want anyone else to buy
|Dr. Kennedy's book and read his false witness!

Researchers testify to the fact that the Tyre of today is not the same
as the Tyre of old.  Why is your historian more infallible than these?

Sincerely,
Richard Pitts


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rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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