From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: PAGAN, was You should be a Christian because (30 words max):
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 12:13:31 GMT

lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
: > 
: >There has been no documented evidence presented. All we have is claims
: >by various people. If such traditions existed, you would assume that
: >someone, somewhere, would have written something down. No such documents
: >have ever been uncovered.
: 
: Yea right!  Like someone is going to write down something that could
: get them killed.  Even today, If I go into the small towns that most of

It was done all the time - by other suppressed groups. Why would they
be any different?

: my family live in here in Texas and admit that I am Pagan, the least I
: can expect is to be spit upon.  The worst....property damage, physical 
: damage...no its not legal, but when did legality ever stop a closed 
: minded person with fear in his heart.  (I refer you to the KKK.)
: 
: Now lets step into the shoes of someone living in a time when It was
: legal.....

See above.

: Also, have you ever tried to do genealogy work?  If you did you would
: understand the difficulty of proving that someone even existed, much 
: less his/her professed religion.  And you want documented proof of
: something no one would dare profess!   SHEEZ!
: 
: Go try some genealogy and MAYBE you will understand what it is I am
: referring to.  Because it is obvious to me that you do not.

I have. We have traced eleventy-eleven of my ancestors. Some of them
back to Europe. Maybe I was just lucky that quite a few of them were
literate. There was little trouble finding documentation of their
existance - although to has taken many years of traveling. About 30
years, for an aunt and uncle of mine. They never looked for religious
affiliation - so I don't know how hard that would be to obtain.

I just want documents, from the period, by someone besides a church
official - or someone who has been under torture (or threatened
torture). Can you point me to any such document?

: >> Where the hell did the ancestors of people who have had the craft
: >> passed down get it if Gerald Gardener wasn't even born yet?
: > 
: >From all the evidence we have - they didn't get it, or have it. There
: >is a lot of old folk medicine - however, that is not Witchcraft.
: > 
: >I, among many others (such as Margo Adler), would very much appreciate
: >any documentation that would prove my above statements to be false.
: 
: Fine Bill, you cling to your evidence.  I however will cling to the
: evidence of a family with craft traditions that I know (and I know
: more than one).  You are right, there is a difference between folk
: medicine and the craft.  Do you think I don't know the difference?

No idea if you know the difference. I still will not believe the
statements of someone without some proof. It is easy to make claims,
witness those by our current President. Can you provide a document
dated to prior to about 1950 that refers to the craft? If you know
so many families with a long tradition, certainly they would have
written to each other, using disguised references that could be
understood by those in the know.

: Hell, my highly Xtian aunt knows and uses folk medicine and "old
: wives tales".  She cuts her hair by the phases of the moon "because 
: it is one of those old wives tales that works".  She doesn't know
: that what she is doing is lending credence to something she thinks
: is devil worship.  

Why does doing something "by the phases of the moon" have anything
to do with witchcraft?

: BTW, Who cares who's name you drop as supporting your point of view. If
: you want to drop names I'm sure we could all come up with some high
: falutin big wig well known and respected writer type that supports
: our point of view.  We could even come up with a serious researcher
: that does the same thing.
: 
: Tammy the geneaologist

I was hoping you could provide something new. I mentioned Adler, because
I know that she would love to receive such information. So would a number
of other researchers. I would also love to receive proof that such was
the case.  

However, I am not going to accept something on "faith" alone.

Bill
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan