HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:09:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov16.212303.14944
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

#	I remember a thing known as "Turkish Revenge."  Basically, if
#you shot somebody below the waist it wasn't considered attempted murder
#but only assault with a deadly weapon.  While I strongly discourage
#aiming for a knee or something like that, in these situations it might
#bear discussing whether a DA would consider it attempted murder or if
#it could be considered a method of stopping a perp and ending the threat.
#I assume you will need to prove that it was an intentional shot and not
#accidental, and the DA will try to smear you handily, but would it be an
#option that the jury would be sypathetic to?  There is the real question.
#
#	[MODERATOR: Let's underscore right away what said jury would
#	 hear, then you be the judge about sympathy:  "So, Mr. Sorenson,
#	 you DECIDED to shoot my poor client in the kneecap, rendering
#	 unto him a permanently disabling wound with extensive pain and
#	 suffering.  If you had time to decide this, then did you really
#	 feel you were under threat of immediate bodily harm? In fact,
#	 sir, your own action demonstrates that at that moment you did 
#	 not feel that deadly force was warranted, contrary to what you
#	 claimed earlier.  Which is it REALLY, Mr. Sorenson?"  Let's not
#	 even speculate about the electronic-age nightmare of "Does this
#	 printout look familiar to you, Mr. Sorenson?  Will you read aloud
#	 to the jury the part where you describe something called ``Turkish
#	 Revenge'' in which you describe how it might be desirable to wound
#	 someone just like you did to my client."]

The one thing I've had drilled into me the most after basic firearms safety
(treat all weapons as if they are loaded, don't put your finger on the
trigger until you are ready to fire, never point one at something you are
not willing to have dead) is that you shoot to STOP.  You shoot, hopefully
at the center of mass, until the guy has STOPPED.

I really don't think that shooting below the waist is a good idea unless
that's your only good target.

My earlier point, about shooting if the guy refused commands, was based on
the premise that I would be in immediate fear of my life.

Mike

-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "...I was quite an asshole at times."
asbestos@nwu.edu       |         - sybok@Athena.MIT.EDU

            A Libertarian and an NRA member.
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 7.62 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokarev & the CZ-52
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: ra.1992Nov16.143105.4033
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

I'm thinking of adding a CZ-52 pistol to my collection. This piece, as I
understand, fires a high-power version of the 7.62 Tokarev round. I am 
not exactly clear on what is required to reload for this gun. "Cartridges
of the World" seems to indicate that the Tokarev is just a different
loading of the 7.62 Mauser. Would I just use 7.62 Mauser dies and brass
to load for the CZ-52?
-- 

Donald R. Newcomb                * The one who dies with the most toys
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * has accomplished nothing beyond
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * enslaving himself to his possessions.
From: kirk@deneb.ico.isc.com (Kirk Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Eye injuries from telescopic sights
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:45:46 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak CD Imaging, Boulder CO

The NRA training counselor teaching my Basic Pistol Instructor's course
last night said that a sharp blow to the eye socket can cause a detached
retina.  That would be pretty serious.  Has anyone heard of this actually
happening?

Kirk Webb
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle Case
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:24 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <1ems2qINNf2q@transfer.stratus.com> tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) writes:
#In article <659@bongo.UUCP>, julian%bongo.UUCP@nosc.mil (Julian Macassey) writes:
## [...]
## 	So,  while visiting musician friends I noticed they had 
## these cool guitar shaped cases that fit an AR-15 with a few inches 
## to spare. So I bought a guitar case at my local guitar store. These 
## cost between $50-75 new. Less used with Van Halen stickers on them. 
## They need some surgery to remove the guitar neck supports etc. But they 
## make a damn fine case. Someone with some skill could add elastic grips 
## for spare mags etc and have a very nice setup.
#
#This is getting almighty close to "concealed carry" (exactly your intent,
#but unfortunatley not appreciated by lawmaking types in some areas).

I happened to mention this subject (guns in gun cases) to a police
officer who I know well and he indicated that a gun case creates
the presumption of a gun and that therefore the gun is not concealed.
Obviously, anything not originally intended as a gun case would not
create the presumption unless extraordinary measures were taken.

Different departments and different governmental agencies may have
different ideas.  What applies here may not apply where you are.

As always, if you plan to depend on these principles you should
consult an experienced attorney; don't take my word for it.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Plastic Magazines
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:07 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater


#In article <1992Nov18.171411.17005@netcom.com>, pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
## Does anyone have any experience, good or bad, with Ramline's 18-round (!) Sig
## P226 magazines?  I was considering ordering a couple, but would like to know
## what their reputation for reliability/durability is.  Thanks in advance...
## 
## Paul Yoshimune
#
Clayton E. Cramer writes:
#I used to think highly of Ramline's pistol magazines.  I won't buy them
#any more.  They don't seem to last long enough to trust my life on.

Every Ramline magazine I have ever seen has broken, usually the feed lips.
True Story: 
	I bought a AR-7 .22 rifle.  It came with a ramline magazine.
I bought a spare ramline magazine for it.  Took it out, shot it, and
within 3-4 magazines full the feed lips broke.  I opened the other
magazine, it worked for a couple of months (at least 30 full loads)
and then broke.  I never left it loaded, but the feed lips cracked
and snapped off.  Which caused all the .22 shells to spray out at once.
Now, I was totally out of magazines, and couldn't find an original steel
one, so I bought a third ramline.  Broke within 2 clips full.
	The 10/22 magazines seem to be a little more sturdy...  but they
have the same feed lip wear problem, and you can't take them apart to
clean them.  I can't really recommend them.
	I guess I should have learned my lesson, but I recently bought
some Zytel M-16 mags (made in Canada).  I've had way too many misfeeds
with these to trust them, but I haven't worn out the feed lips... yet.

In short, plastic magazines have given me nothing but problems.  Platic
is ok for stocks, or followers in magazines, but I don't think it's
adequate for magazines.
 
--- Scott
kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Defense/Combat Questions
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:14:08 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <199211160438.AA22652@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:
}I noticed that I'd posted quite a few questions these days. Guess I'm
}still in a curious mood. So two more questions come:
}
}(1) I've read quite a few defense/combat articles wherein the good guys
}    mount flash lights on their weapons and go searching for the bad guys.
}    I understand that it is very important to see the objects before you
}    shoot. However, using a flash light just reveals your position, IMO.
}    Even though some gun writers recommend that you put the flash lights
}    on  the right side of your body to fool the bad guys. But unless you
}    use the flash lights directly on them, they can still see you moving
}    around. It seems to me that using a flash light can get you killed
}    DEAD. Nevertheless, most combat authority still use flash lights.
}    So what am I missing here?

Falling down a flight of stairs you didn't see in the dark can kill you,
too.  So can a bad guy you didn't see hiding in the shadows.  Everything's
a trade off.  The experts seem to think that using a flashlight is better
than not using one.

Note that the same experts recommend _against_ using a weapon mounted
flashlight for searching purposes.  Those are intended for target
identification only.

}(2) In one of Ayoob's articles, "Be Roll-out Ready for Home Defense", he
}    suggests a few things handy for home defense. They include: a 
}    bullet-proof vest, flash light, sound magnifier/ear protector, and a
}    loaded nylon duty belt ( carrying a gun, mags, cordless phone, etc ).
}    In one of the pictures in that article, he looks like a member of the
}    police swat team, all out ready for combat/defense. My questions is how 
}    far can/do you go? How about tear gas? stink bombs? night vision?
}    home-made grenade? Full auto rifle? ( assuming you legally own one )

The answer depends on the situation, I think.  If there's a full scale
riot going on and you've got time to get all that gear arranged, I say go
for it.  On the other hand, for dealing with prowlers and burglars, other
questions arise:

Will you have time to get into a vest?  Do you want the cops to find you
wearing/carrying when they arrive? (Most civilian combat courses emphasize
_reholstering_ your gun so it's not in your hand when the police walk in).
How's it going to look in court?  How much use is a gun on a duty belt
when you wake up and see someone standing over you?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: arm-alloy (on SIGS)
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:41:33 GMT


I've heard that Sigs tend to rust, so that K-kote is recommended.  A
place I called didn't have any K-koted ones in stock, but they DO have
Arm-alloy (sp?).  The Slide and grip screws are arm-alloyed, it costs
$40 extra, and it's guaranted against rust.  

Does anybody know anything about this arm-alloy stuff?

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"We... have no use for adventures.  Nasty disturbing uncomfortable
things!  Make you late for dinner!"  -- B. Baggins 

Seth Eliot,            Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                       Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu            --------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb        
---------------------------------
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:19 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <1992Nov19.225827.25705@news.acns.nwu.edu> chaos@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:
#
#vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
#
#[big snip here]
#
## Assuming that a person does NOT possess a firearm, what it the best
## approach for dealing with a stranger at the door at 11PM?
#...
#To my embarassment, he was my little sister's friend's father.  I let him
#in :-). ...

This one is easy. Install a peep hole, intercom, and/or some devices
that allow you to open the door slightly and yet still prevent the door
to open further. When the "stranger" shows up at 11PM, use the peep hole
to indentify who he/she is. Then use intercom or louder voice and yell:

"Who is it?"
"What do you want?"
"Why don't you come back tomorrow?"

That should take care of most situation. If he/she is smart enough to fool
you, the third device will allow you to open the door slightly to talk to
that person and yet give you some time to react when he/she wants to force
into the door. At this moment, a pocket pistol can be very useful.

David
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com  
 Communication Services Research  | Defend your life with style! -- Beretta
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:09:40 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


One thing I wonder about...

What if the perp is armed with a knife and starts walking very deliberately
towards you from 20 feet away.  I know many anti-gun types who have said about
cops in similar situations "he had a gun, why couldn't he just shoot him in
the leg or something?".  In fact, cops have had to undergo a lot of invest-
igation on that point here in Atlanta, although as far as I know they have
all been (eventually) exonerated.  Still, if you get a civil jury trial this
point can be made to sound very convincing by the plaintiffs lawyers.  So, if
you were in this situation, why not shoot for the legs (assuming you have a
big enough gun and are a good enough shot)?

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need Accessories for Galil AR  .223
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:15:39 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1e8qjqINNl8f@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, Dave.Maycon@EBay.Sun.COM (Dave Maycon) writes:
# Since most assault guns and accessories have been banned in Ca., it has been
# nearly impossible to purchase "stuff."  Does anybody know where I can get
# a scope mount, cheek rest and a AR-15 Magazine adapter.  I need possibly
# toll-free numbers or addresses of catalogs where I can get my hands on these
# products.
# 

    L.L. Baston sells accessories for just about every military-style
semi-auto rifle around. They can be reached at:

	L.L. Baston Co., Inc.
	P.O. Box 1995
	El Dorado, AR 71731
	1-800-643-1564



-- John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chinese 7.62 x39 Rounds
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:05 GMT


Eric T Horne writes:
#What exactly is the difference between corrosive and non-corrosive ammo?
#And why would someone use one over the other?

As others have posted, corrosive ammo uses potassium chlorate primers,
while noncorrosive ammo uses lead styphnate. Typically.

Corrosive/noncorrosive is not always a matter of choice. Virtually all 
ammo made in the West is noncorrosive, including all sporting ammunition.

One typically runs into corrosive ammo in obsolete or Eastern military
surplus ammo; better make that more generic - foreign surplus military
ammo.

In some obsolete military calibers one has a choice of using corrosive
surplus ammo on the one hand and reloading (if lucky) or not shooting
on the other.

I choose to use corrosive ammo because I am willing to take the time to
clean my firearms properly, and I am definitely willing to save
substantial amounts of money as well :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Browning Hi-Powers
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:05 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

In <9211172100.AA27598@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:

#I've been thinking about what to buy before Dec 31., and really wasn't
#sure what to get.  Today I walked into a Country_General store which
#just opened in town.  They had a fairly good selection including
#Mini-14 Ranch rifles for $350 and Browning Hi-Powers for $400.

Geez, $400 for hi-power, they run around $750 up here, I think
the canadian distributor must be making some serious margins.
The $400 (and the $350 mini-14s) sound like good prices.

#A while back on the net, people were talking about NOT using +p
#ammo in Hi-Powers.  There were conflicting opinions.  Was this
#ever resolved?

The Canadian Armed forces have been using 9mm NATO in their
hi-powers for decades. They don't break, they apparently do
loosen up quite a bit (soft steels). As 9mm NATO is +p,
I don't think there will be a problem.

#What is the diff between the Mini-14 and the Mini-14 Ranch rifle? 

The ranch rifle is set up for a scope, the rear site folds down.
The mini-14 has a much more substantial rear sight.



-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com cgb003@email.comm.mot.com
From: barry@uts.amdahl.com (Barry Needham)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 21 Nov 92 02:16:02 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


#-> #Jammed. (guy insisted on using lead reloads in violation of Mfgr's
#-> #warning)

# Is it possible to get a feed job done on a Glock to let it run lead bullets??

My Glock 20s have over 25,000 rounds of 175 grain lead SWC at 1100 FPS through
them with no problems that were not related to my reloading.

No modifications to the Glocks feed mechanism was required.

Regards,
  Barry.

-- 
Barry Needham          barry@uts.amdahl.com          USA (408) 992-2527
From: mjalava@lk-hp-17.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: distance a .22 lr travels
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:16:30 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <1992Nov16.220548.10244@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#Well, I don't believe I've ever heard of or seen anyone try to
#wingshoot birds with a rifle.  The shotgun won't carry far (200
#yds? for birdshot).

In Finland many hunters shoot game birds sitting in trees. As .22
rimfire isn't even legal to hunt with, the birds are shot with
anything from .22 Hornet to .30-06 (I have met a guy who uses a 9.3x74
rifle for this purpose - of course the trajectory is bad but at short
ranges it works OK). The fact that Finland is not very populated helps
a lot and I haven't heard of any accidents where bullets shot at birds
have landed at an unwanted place. 

Many hunting accidents happen every year but most of them in elk
hunting. Sometimes someone shoots a person as an animal, but that's a
completely different problem. Of course you must be very careful and
think where you shoot, but at least here it is not considered
completely irresponsible to shoot at birds with a high power rifle.

	Mika
From: SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Scope injuries
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:06:32 GMT


   This is a _recent_ story that I got first hand.  ;-)

   Good friend was sighting his new black powder rifle in for the first 
   time.  Had a high-mount scope with the see-thru rings.  First shot was
   using the original iron sights using the see-thru feature.  Load was
   90gr Pryodex behind a 415gr  Hunter bullet.   For those not familiar,
   that is a heavy-duty load...    BANG!  WHAM!  OUCH!!!

   Whoooops!   Should have noticed that the eye relief using the scope was
   *mucho different* than the iron sights.  One _more_ reason why I think 
   see-thru sights are a useless (and dangerous!) gimmick.  Let alone you
   can't possibly get a good cheek weld-to-the-stock with them for scoped
   shooting.  Always have felt make up your mind; iron sights or scope.

   SET END/SOAPBOX      (VMS MAIL command :-)

   Mike  (Coyote)   (Pronounced Ci'ute, not Ci-yoh'-tee)
   SYSTEMM@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL
From: rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:32 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Bob Hale (btree!hale@UCSD.EDU) writes:
#Michael A. Atkinson (mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu) writes:
##
##I really don't think that shooting below the waist is a good idea unless
##that's your only good target.
#
#What if the perpetrator is wearing a ballistic vest?

Then just aim for center of mass -- the force of impact will easily throw
the perp back 10-12 feet.  ;^)

--Rob Cuthbertson, rob@spot.Colorado.EDU
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Enfield p14 Remingtion actions for sale
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:08 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I have 2 p-14 Remington actions for sale, both in good condition. $75 OBO

Make an offer, if you are even slightly interested....
-c
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Trijicon vs Meprolite -----> results
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:40:09 GMT
Organization: College of Business, University of Florida

A few weeks ago I inquired as to which of these two night sights are 
preferred.  The overwhelming response was Trijicon (Armson), but some people 
did claim that Meprolite has a new generation of night sights that is equal 
to the Trijicon sights.  I was unable to verify this.

I ordered the Trijicon sights from Glock for my model 20, and it took two 
and a half weeks to get back.  I sent the whole gun in via UPS so that 
they could install the upgraded trigger assemble, also.  Additionally, they 
test fired the gun and made sure everything works fine.

I am very impressed with the definition of the Trijicon sights.  There are 
NOT bright; one of the concerns someone had previously mentioned is that the 
reflected glow from the face of the shooter would be seen by the shootee.  
That cannot happen.  The sights are a clearly defined dim green.  In 
daylight the white ring around the sealed cannisters makes them usable.

Another concern about nights sights was the possibility of misaligned 
sights; not putting the blade portion of the sight between the two rear 
sights.  Specifically, putting the blade to the left or right of the rear 
sights, thus giving an inaccurate three-dot setup.  This could not happen.  
I put myself in a totally dark room and played around with this idea, and 
the sight picture is so glaringly off as to make missing it next to 
impossible.

An unrelated question (I posted earlier, but got no reply yet):

What subsonic full/total metal jacket 10mm amm exists out there?  Is there a 
preferred brand?  Is there a relatively inexpensive brand?






Joe

****************************************************************
**                 GLOCK@chip.cba.ufl.edu                     **
**                                                            **
**     "When the going gets tough, the tough get a GLOCK."    **
****************************************************************