From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: haydn symphony recommendations
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:52:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.171005.42112@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts) writes:
>inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:

>> yes, it's the Haydn backlash. Sorry, Asbed Bedrossian, but
>>I agree completely with Deryck Barker - Haydn was the finer
>>symphonist than Mozart (the piano concerti are another matter).

>But what do you and Deryck mean by finer symphonist? In his time, Haydn was
>probably the more innovative in developing the form, but surely Mozart was the
>more imaginative of the two in terms of what he used the form for, as he was
>in most other genres. 

How so?  Jupiter and G minor are certainly imaginative, but so are Haydn
103, 98, 92, to name just three examples.  And there is nothing in the 
Mozart canon like the Farewell Symphony, a quite remarkable early example
of linking the four movements together thematically and in other ways.  
46 in B major is quite strange, too, in different ways.

Mozart only has a few great symphonies at all -- the two I mentioned, the
E flat, the Prague, Linz,Haffner, and Paris, plus afew of the earlier
ones that get played a lot: little G minor and Amajor, K.201.  Haydn's
imagination can be seen at work in the great variety presented in the 
twelve London symphonies alone; add to these the Paris set, 88 and 92,
and you have twenty towering masterpieces to set against Mozart's four
super works.

>I'm fond of Haydn myself, but not to the extent of going
>overboard in comparing his efforts to Mozart's.

Haydn produced more works of the highest caliber in the genres of
the symphony and the string quartet, and did so over a longer period.
His finest quartets and symphonies are at least the equal of Mozart's;
that's my opinion and that of many others.  We don't consider it
overboard at all.

>One genre where I *do* think Haydn superior to Mozart, though, is choral music.
>Haydn seems here to have been much more consistently inspired than Mozart, and
>I can't for the life of me see why the latter's masses have achieved such
>popularity. The fact that his most famous, the Requiem and C-minor, both
>remain  unfinished seems unsurprising (admittedly more so in the case of the
>Requiem!). Some of Mozart's fugal writing is positively mind-numbing and if
>anybody can explain to me why on earth the Requiem is so popular, without
>mentioning the film 'Amadeus', I might be a happier man.

Hm.  where to start?  

The mature Mozart composed very little church music for a simple reason:
it was pointless to do so.  The Emperor had forbidden florid works in
Austrian churches, preferring a more straightforward, German-language-
oriented music.  Accordingly, the period of Mozart's great successes
was not one in which one could have expected him to write any church music;
and he didn't.  

Neither did Haydn, by the way.  But when Joseph II died, both went back to
work.  Mozart composed the Ave Verum Corpus in June 1791, for the first
Corpus Christi procession in many years -- even that had been suppressed.
Haydn's greatest Masses come from his last decade of composition, and from
after Mozart's death.  

This ban is probably also the reason why the C minor mass is unfinished.
There wasn't any point in writing music that wouldn't get played.

Now, what do you mean about it being "unsurprising" that the two Viennese
Masses were unfinished?  As for the popularity of the Requiem, its romantic
story has attracted people since its first performance; movies have nothing
to do with it.  It was shrouded in myth and mystery even before its composition,
with the circumstances of its commission; its composition on the deathbed
is poignant indeed.  As for its music, many people, myself included, admire
it greatly.  Its imaginative tone colors, wide variety of textures, and
wonderful melodies (as in the Recordare) are worth another listen.

Mozart's counterpoint "numbing"?  Give an example.  I'm not sure I
know what you mean.  Also, most of Mozart's Masses haven't achieved 
much popularity at all.  The Coronation Mass and a few from the mid-70's,
perhaps; but not the bulk of them.  I haven't heard half of them.

Roger