From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Russian Speakers in Estonia
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:20:11 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <Sorokin.37.725931368@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at> Sorokin@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at (Sorokin Zhenya) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.125715.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
[Stuff deleted]
>>The non-citizens in Estonia 
>>have all the rights of citizens except the right to vote in Riigikogu 
>>elections 
>
>They have no right to be sure about their future. No guarantee is given that 
>whenever political feelings of citizens (or simply power balance in 
>Riigikogu {is it Parliament in english? My estonian is very poor} ) change, 
>then they'd be subject to much stronger discrimination (which would be also 
>legal, since they are not citizens). Being in Austria I know it very good. 

Theoretically, anything is possible (in and out of Austria). 
Practically, do not forget the superpower around the corner,
who would react in a violent manner to any discrimination of Slavs.
She barely tolerates the case that immigrants do not get an automatic
citizenship.

Now, to get the guarantee through domestic politics, immigrants
can and should apply for the citizenship. Obvious, isn't it?

>About relations:
>*All* balts whom I knew (mostly before the independence, of course) were 
>common in 

I am sorry you do not know me. I am estonian, and according to
my experience, my views on the following three points are 
pretty standard among estonians.

>1. When _these_ get away, we'll start a new life (cultural, economic, etc.).

If _these_ is annexation (now gone), I agree. If _these_ is Soviet
Army (now Russian), I agree that a new life in the presence of Russian
Army is badly nervous and hinders economic development and domestic
politics (economy due to the feeling of instability hindering
investment). If _these_ is immigrants (colonists), their presence
is no obstacle to a "new life", though it makes it more
complicated and the economical development slightly slower (at all
costs the goverment must avoid bankruptcies of most mainly-immigrant
companies)

>2. We will inevitably retreive _them_.

If _them_ is immigrants (colonists), we will NOT retrieve them.
We would be happy if some, or many of them would migrate
back to where they came from, BUT IN NO CASE will we tolerate
forcing them to leave, not by any means.

The historical experince of estonians makes any ideas of
any deportation of anybody EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR.

>Concrete definition of _them_ depended upon cultural level, from "all of 
>you" to very polite "lumpen elements from industrial townships".

I mean "immigrants" or more exactly, colonists (immigrants who
came after tanks instead of after asking for visas). I am 
sorry that some immigrants whom I know and like very much
were FORCED to be colonists by USSR. It was not their fault.
On the other hand, feeling and acting like an active, principal colonist
was too common for a large part of immigrants.

Unfortunately, if the citizenship issue is to be treated in the sensible, LEGAL
way, there is just no way to give anyone automatic citizenship,
even to a best, nice good-willing independence-supporting immigrant. 
The closest to that would be giving citizenship for "special
services", but even then one has to apply. 

>3. All russians tend to communism and dictatorship, it is genetic (remember 
>the discussion about "russian guilt" on this forum?).

I do not agree at all. 

I do suppose though, that the russian culture (not genes) is fairly
expansionistic. Look on the map, investigate the mood of people, etc.
If the government decides to expand the territory, most citizens
have no objections. This specialty of russian culture started
after they were conquered by tartars and survived, integrating
the conquerors (now this last sentence is just my favourite
hypotheses).

>About revenge:
>In *all* discussions, a certain argument inevitably arrives: "And what did  
>soviets (russians) do with us in 1940!?!" (look old Tanel's postings here,
>for example). Using this argument today to back somethimg exactly means the 
>revenge. This idea sits very deep in common sense and should be taken into 
>account.

Nay, it is not like that at all. People I know in Estonia (and I know
pretty many! :-) do not wish or imagine revenge. They wish to be left in
peace. The argumentation I use for claiming that it is moral to
require that all immigrants and colonists should APPLY for the 
estonian citizenship to get it is based on their status and history
(also recent history, not only 50 years old). It is NOT meant for
proposing revenge. The citizenship issue is not a revenge.

When thinking about what happened 50 years ago and 50 years
after that, it is true that I do not have specially warm feelings
towards Russia. I am sceptical and afraid. I wish that Russia will
not become a "real" superpower any more.

But I do not wish revenge to Russia or russians. I do not think that God
should perform any revenge.
 
>There are different levels of policy:
>1. The arguments said by politicians.
>2. Their real intentions.
>3. Understanding by common sense.
>4. The results.
>
>I do not need to comment 1. after Tanel's postings.
>It seems that 2. had changed in Estonia recently to more positive towards 
>russian-speakers, maybe first results helped.
>This produced some difference between 2. and common sense which definitely 
>considers all measures through the prism of retrieval of _those_ (do not try 
>to convince me of opposite, I've spoken to enough balts in Latvia, Estonia 
>and Moscow).

I have spoken with more estonians than you ever will :-)
See my views above. Certainly you can find estonians with
fairly nonstandard views, but in my understanding the viewpoints
above are most common.

>>Elaborate the question. In this form it sounds like: what will happen in
>>Estonia in next years?
>>
>>The shortest answer: if let alone, without chauvinist Russian intrusion,
>>Estonia will resemble of Finland after one generation. Russia would
>>have another Finland as it's neighbour. Nothing more and nothing less.
>>
>
>Agree and hope, but don't you think that estonian policy can influence the 
>process in both positive and negative way? 

I am afraid that estonian politics has very little influence on
russian.

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet