From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 14:56:59 GMT

In article <3647@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <BtMH14.FMo.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>>In article <3636@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>>
>>>Does those 'constitutionally mandated elections' include opponents of
>the monarchial regime?  Is the 'Press' allowed 'to freely discuss issues
>related' to criticism of the corruption of the monarchial, non-Islamic,
>and authoritative regime?
>>
>>Not entirely, but, it provides a damn sight more freedom than you'll find in 
>>any other Arab state.
>
>Really?  On what comparison and/or basis?  Freedom of what?

Kuwait's press has had a reputation for freedom in the past that will
hopefully be restored.  Freedom to advocate positions which may not be 
necessarily held in the mainstream of opinion in Kuwait.

>
>>>Are the majority of people just content with the newest in Mercedes Benz,
>and Cadillacs?  Shopping for the latest style in 28 carat gold?  Counting
>their interest in the bank?  Or of the tragedies and extremities of poverty
>in the Arab and Muslim world?  Or supporting a government that calls on
>world?  Of supporting a government that calls on another nation to defend
>it?  
>>
>>Yes, when their "brothers and sisters" who they have supported morally and
>>financially for decades respond to their calls for help with jeers against
>>them and cheers for the man who is brutally raping, pillaging, and massacring
>>the state of Kuwait and its people.
>
>Can you prove this?

Please.  You, Marwan, et al. are evidence enough, but to be fair I will 
also point out the mass demonstrations in Jordan and the West Bank, the 
newspaper opinions published in Jordan (which consistenly echo public
opinion, as far as Hussein allows), and the various resolutions by the 
Jordanian parliament in support of Iraq's position.

>
>>  Yes, when they are coldly betrayed by the 
>>people they helped the most. Yes, whenthey have spent billions more on poverty 
>>and development in the Arab and Muslim world (as I and others have documented 
>>extensively here
>
>Kuwait gave financial aid towards their own political agenda and interests.
>And according to a few sources, Kuwait extends *loans* - KFAED - to Arab,
>African, and Asian governments, mainly for power, transportation, and
>agriculture.

Anisa, this clearly points out where you are *WRONG*.  You haven't researched this
well enough.  Here are some numbers, from the proverbial "horse's mouth":

This comes from the Central Bank of Kuwait.  


          Official Foreign Assistance by Kuwait
                 to Third World Countries


                      1984     1985     1986     1987     1988
                      ----     ----     ----     ----     ----
Official Foreign
Assistance            862      868      983      337      534
(Million KD)

GDP                   6424.6   6151.0   6675.9   6406.1   6633.1
(Million KD)

Aid as % of GDP       13.4%    14.1%    14.7%    5.3%     8.1%


----------------------------------------------------------------

Aid as % of GDP (average for 5 years): 11.12%

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*** This does *not* include soft loans for project financing in
*** third world countries by the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic 
*** Development (KFAED).
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Kuwait's overall level of aid (not loans) as a percentate of 
GDP was among the highest of all the industrialized nations of 
the _world_!  So, exactly what was the basis for your statement?

 

>
>
>>With friends like this, !YES!, Kuwait sought outside help.
>
>We shouldn't be surprised given that they have always kowtowed to the
>West.  They were just too weak and soft to do anything for themselves.
>While they paid off America and individual American soldiers, the other
>Arab countries that came to Kuwait's rescue, like Syria and Egypt, the
>men didn't recieve a thank you or a single cent to be forced in the
>middle of the conflict.

Syria and Egypt are receiving billions of dollars in aid.  Syrians and
(unfortunately, to a lesser degree) Egyptians are also being given 
job opportunities in Kuwait.  More evidence that you haven't researched 
very well.

> 
>>You are a liar, Anisa.  Until you provide some proof or evidence or 
>>documentation of your claims that Kuwaitis are all greedy and haven't 
>>given anything to the Arab or Muslim world, you will remain a liar.
>
>Anwar, I never said that *all* Kuwaitis are greedy.  I am not a bigot
>and do not blatanly hate anyone out of pure anger or hatred.  I just
>dispise their actions, double standards, and pseudeness of being an
>Islamic government.  I hope that they will change and be an example to
>the Arab world not because of their wealth index, but their humanity
>and decency, which, at this point is lacking very severely.  And it
>would be very presumtuous for me to judge everyone - after all I
>know that there are *still* some good Muslims there.  I never stated
>that Kuwait never gave any money to the Arab leaders, and that did not
>benefit their political interests and advantage.  I have generally
>criticized the Kuwaiti government first, for being so corrupt and in
>NOT distributing the wealth to benefit Muslim *people* around the
>world.  

The one aid source (of many from Kuwait) you managed to find independently, 
KFAED, was founded to do just this.  To cut throught the Beaureaucratic red 
tape and corruption in  aid receiving countries (ie. Jordan) and build hospitals, 
educational institutions directly.

>They haven't and if you can prove with documentation otherwise,
>*you* stand corrected.  BTW, who ever said that the oil and revenues of
>such - being Kuwait's only natural resource - are EXCLUSIVELY Kuwait's
>and the Al-Sabah family's?  I criticize the people - from what we see
>and hear from the media and from individual experiences - because of
>their shallowness and non-sensitivity to Muslim people around the
>world who are suffering while they indulge themselves in cars, jewelry,
>and other luxuries while people in Egypt are homeless and cannot even
>afford to eat.  That is the fact and that is what I, and others, are
>enfuriated by - not because we are jealous.

The table above points to unprecedented levels of aid on Kuwait's
behalf.

>
>But how do we measure the above?  Would you like to make a comparison
>based on GNP level?  Well, I did a little research on the matter and
>came up with the following facts.  You then tell me what I am saying
>is a lie:
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>COUNTRY		POPULATION 		GNP		INFLATION RATE
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Qatar		   328,000	$17,070 / $ 5.4 B.		9%
>
>U.A.E.		 1,980,000	$11,900 / $22.0 B.		N/A
>
>** Kuwait	 1,938,000	$ 9,040 / $16.9 B.		1%
>
>Bahrain		   480,900	$ 8,110 / $ 4.6 B.		2.8%
>
>Saudi Arabia	15,452,000	$ 6,030 / $85   B.		10%
>
>Oman		 1,265,000	$ 5,900 / $ 7.5 B.		N/A
>
>Yemen		 2,425,000	$   500 / $ 1.1 B.		16%
>
>
>** GNP dropped from $25,000 in 1983 to $9,000 in 1988.  Has a 
>reserve fund of $80 Billion.
>
>
>Now lets look at the other Arab countries:
>
>
>Algeria		25,063,000	$ 2,570 / $57   B.		11%
> 
>Iraq		17,600,000	$ 2,400 / $40   B.		25%
>
>Jordan		 2,850,000	$ 2,070 / $ 5.5 B.		1%
>
>Syria		11,570,000	$ 1,970 / $20.3 B.		17.4%
>
>Egypt		51,205,000	$ 1,260 / $30   B.		22.6%
>
>Tunis		 7,738,000	$ 1,230 / $ 9.3 B.		3.5%
>
>Lebanon		 2,674,000	$ 1,150 / $ 3   B.		400%
>
>Morocco		24,976,000	$   510 / $11.9 B.		8.7%
>
>Sudan		24,188,000	$   361 / $ 7.3 B.		80%
>
>
>Also non-Arab countries:
>
>Israel		 4,929,000	$ 7,900 / $21   B.		48%
>
>Iran		51,924,000	$ 1,667 / $75   B.		20-25%
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This was from 1990, obviously the figures have increased and/or
>decreased a lot.  I also wanted you to know that if you judge
>Kuwait on the basis of being democratic because it is a constitutional
>monarchy, and thus better than the other countries in the Arab world,
>I would remind you that Morocco is also a constitutional monarchy.

These figures prove nothing other than Kuwait is a relatively prosperous
country.  It doesn't say anything about Kuwait's efforts to alleviate the
suffering of its brothers and sisters in other Muslim and Arab countries.
The simple fact is, as evidenced by the numbers I have presented, 
Kuwait was proportionally one of the largest donors of aid in the world,
and all that aid went to Muslim and Arab countries.

>
>If you want to judge democracy on the standards of suffrage, the
>following figures might also surprise you:
>

I think the proper measure is political freedom.  Suffrage is a new
invention in all these countries, and probably will be in Kuwait soon.
Let's discuss political freedom:

>
>No suffrage in:  Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and U.A.E. (prohibits
>		 political parties, like Kuwait and Bahrain).
>
>Suffrage in:
>
>		Lebanon - 21+  Males and females

I have no idea what the current situation in Lebanon is.

>		Syria   - 18+  UniversaL

HA. 

>		Jordan	- 20+  Universal

Arguable political freedom.   Only as much as King Hussein allows, and even
that is being restricted as the Muslim Brotherhood wins more seats in
Jordan's legistlative body.  I'm sure that you, as a Palestinian, realize
the limits of political freedom in Jordan.

>		Iraq	-      Universal for all adults

HAHA.  (You can vote, but your husband can legally kill you for whatever reason
he likes.)

>
>		Egypt	- 18+  Universal

One political party has a lock on political control, similiar to  Kuwait's 
monarchy.  

>		Algeria - 18   Universal

One political party has a lock on political control, similiar to  Kuwait's 
monarchy.

>		Morocco - 20+  Universal

A constitutional monarchy with even less power invested in legistlative
branches.

>		Tunis	- 21+  Universal

HAHAHAHA.

>		Libya	-      Universal for all adults
>

HAHAHAHAHA.

>		Yemen	- 18+  All citizens
>		Iran	- 15+  Universal

One ideology has a lock on the legistlative body and executive
body.  Secular ideology is virtually nonexistent.

>	
>
>>I haven't made *any* comment on the Middle East Peace talks since your
>>ridiculous tirades against Kuwaitis.  From then on, I have had no interest 
>>in the Peace talks other than to assure a guarantee of peace for Kuwait 
>>from its foes (and 'friends'), just as you have no interest in anyone
>>else's well being but your own.
>
>That isn't true.  I care very much for Palestinians foremost, but
>with all Muslims in general despite their nationality.  It is just
>that the Palestinians are, and should be, at the heart of the matter
>first, given their situation.
>
>You are just making excuses for your lack of caring towards anyone
>except yourself and to justify your government's actions.  What's
>the matter, can't take a little criticism and honesty?  You have
>to fight back with insults, and a superlative attitude?  The facts
>don't change until *you* do, Anwar.  Live by the words you are
>so famous for - change what is in your own backyard first.

This is hilarious.  Anisa, after devoting at least three postings 
to Kuwait, is telling me to "change what is in my backyard first."
There is no hint of self-criticism.  No hint of accountability.
Why are you afraid to point what is wrong in your own community?
Is it really so pristine?

>
>Anisa
>
>	"Men have been eluded by the female psyche
>	 since the beginning of time."
>				The Butcher's Wife


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast