From: rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richard Carlson)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Date: 12 Oct 92 10:26:19 GMT

atovorni@engr.UVic.CA (Andreas  Tovornik) writes:

> In article 8064@ac.dal.ca, brentaa@ac.dal.ca (brent, eh?) writes:
> >In article <1b46kkINNfbo@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Bur
> >> 
> >> In article <1992Oct8.074136.7232@newstand.syr.edu>, kgatling@rodan.acs.syr
> >> |> Regarding the thread here about Diane supposedly not letting her son fi
> >> |> back (and I suspect that a lot of you read that wrong), let me add my 2
> >> |> without importing previous transcripts.
> >> |> 
> >> |> First of all, I was one of those kids who was raised to not fight back,
> >> |> at least to avoid confrontations where possible.  The result?  I got be
> >> |> on a regular basis.  
> >> 
> >> I always fought back, but I was still the favorite target for beating 
> >> up on a regular basis.
> >> 
> >> My anecdote cancels out your anecdote!
> >> 
> >> (I suppose it might have helped if I'd known how to do it better, but 
> >> I don't want to chime in on that side of the argument right now.)
> >> 
> >> Paula Burch
> >> pburch@bcm.tmc.edu

There could, and probably should, be a whole thread on this point.
Is it an old wive's tale that kids who fight back never get picked
on, or is that moderated by how well you do it or how hard you
hit?  What does "do it better" mean in this context?  Did you ever
land a punch?  Did they have any force behind them?

> >
> >O.K., since we're delving into childhood memories of bullies and being
> >bullied, let me disagree with almost everything that has been said so far
> >and prepare to be singed...
> >
> >	It has been stated many times by various people in various ways
> >that children need to learn how to defend themselves from violent
> >situations.  Before you prepare to flame me, I do not disagree with that
> >in any way.  Remember this as I continue.
> >
> >	As a child, I was always smaller than the other kids, and less
> >coordinated, and so some would think a prime target for being bullied
> >and picked on.  This didn't happen to me, and there are good reasons why.
> >The best way to get out of a violent situation is to never get in it in the
> >first place.  The second best way is to talk your way out of it.  I
> >learned in grade school that these things actually worked, and that there
> >are very few potentially violent situtions which one cannot get out of.
> >Now I realize that there was nothing Dylan could have done in his case
> >to avoid what happened, and I in no way fault his mother for getting
> >upset, I think she did the right thing.
> >My point is that fighting back can often lead to more trouble than learning
> >other means of problem solving.  Were I to fight back against any of the
> >bullies that bothered me, even if I had taken martial arts, I would
> >most likely have gotten beaten up, as they were always bigger and stronger
> >than me and tended to be in large groups.  Bullies often bully because
> >they want to start a fight or make you mad, and if they know that they can't
> >do that, they ussually won't bother.

It sounds here as if you've discovered the magic formula that
every nerd, wimp, parent and child psychologist has been searching
for like alchemists looking for the philosopher's stone.  All my
life I've heard it said that you can talk your way out of a fight,
but no one has ever said exactly how in any detail or even claimed
that they had personally done so.  And that second point, that
bullies are trying to get a rise out of you and will leave you
alone if you don't react, is one of those things that gets said
all the time but always seemed to me to be a myth.

Are you sure that there weren't other factors, like a big brother
or cousin the other kids were really afraid of?  Or maybe the
other kids' fathers worked for your father?

> >	I do agree that sometimes there is no choice but to act with 
> >physical force in self defence, but it doesn't always have to be that
> >way, and there are other options than teaching your child that the way to 
> >handle bullies is by becoming the karate kid.  
> >	I avoided all signifigant violence while growing up, from grade 
> >school through high school, by using my brains and my mouth.  There were
> >times when I was pushed around a bit, but that's part of life, not an
> >irreperable scar on the psyche of the child...

What does "pushed around" mean?  How hard did they hit you?

> >	Violence, even in self defence, is rarely the only option, 
> >and never the best option.
> >
> >					-Brontosaur who turned out just fine.
> >
> 
>   Way to go bronto!
> 
> I should have thought of that when I was ten. I still think bullies are
> bullies because they have low self esteem and have learned to be bullies
> from dysfunctional parents. 

This statement offers the potential for another entire thread.  I
don't think it says it all.  I have always thought, even when I
was a kid trying to understand the bully and wimp dynamics in a
practical sense, that bullying was at least in part a natural
instinctual behavior pattern,  kind of an expression of the
primitive primate social hierarchy based on who could lick whom. I
had a completely Darwinian or ethological view by the time I was
eleven years old, and while I observed that kids from unhappy
homes did it more, kids form happy homes often turned into bullies
if the wimp target looked temptingly easy or obnoxious enough.

> Did you get out of fights by boosting their self confidence using
> compliments?

I think this is exactly the right question to ask.  _HOW_ was it
done?  Was it compliments or was it subtle insults or something
else?  What?

--
Richard Carlson
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