HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arild@milan.philosophie.uni-stuttgart.de (Arild Hestvik)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Animal Grammar
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:29:02 GMT
	<29E640CC.8634@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
	<ARA.92Apr11000727@camelot.ai.mit.edu>
Reply-To: arild@adler.philosophie.uni-stuttgart.de
Organization: IMS, University of Stuttgart, Germany

This thread is confusing two things: Language (as in English) and
communication. Noone denies that animals communicate, and may have quite
sophisticated means of doing so. But linguistics is not about
communication. It is about a mental computational system (which has
communication as one of its uses). Whereas both animals and humans
communicate, only humans communicate using this type of system. Animal
communication (as far as is known) do for example not employ a syntax of
the *type* human language do. Therefore, most linguists don't find it
helpful to study animal "language" if they want to find out about human
language. (Although there may be other parallels between human and and
animal language development, such as the "critical period" of language
acquisition).
-Arild Hestvik
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: A thirty-letter alphabet (Re: Latin alphabet (was: Inventing a writing system?))
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:35:47 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.082549.18742@dde.dk>, ct@dde.dk (Claus Tondering) writes:
<horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
<>In article <167C112344.JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU>, JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU writes:
<
<><Let's hear it for putting the thorn back in English
<><where it has belonged for over a millenium!
<
<>And edh, wynn, and ash.
<
<I know thorn and edh, but what are wynn and ash?

You live in Denmark and don't know wynn?  That golden horn that was discovered
in Denmark decades ago bore a wynn (in runic form).  It's sort of `p'-shaped
and represents the sound [w].

Ash is an `ae' ligature, representing the vowel sound in English `cat'.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
Shao2shan1 sheng1 de tai4yang2 yong3 bu2 luo4!
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: peeters@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (bert peeters)
Subject: Re: A new pronoun?
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 07:26:58 GMT

stephen@estragon.uchicago.edu (Stephen P Spackman) writes:

>In article <peeters.702445451@tasman> peeters@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (bert peeters) writes:

>|dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>|
>|>I don't get it.  What's *new* about its?  I learned this one in first grade.
>|
>|>How old is the proverb "Every dog has its day." ?  Certainly a lot older
>|>than I am...
>|
>|What is new about "its"?  ITS novelty is that the "its" discussed here is a
>|PRONOUN, and not a possessive adjective as in David's example and in my
>|own prose.

>It's still not new. Did you never play with your friends' pets as a
>kid?

>"Don't eat that, it's its!"

>"Its is bigger than mine!"

>(In fact, "Its is bigger than ours's!"!)

Oh yes, I did play with my friends' pets as a kid, but at that time, I didn't
speak English yet, just Dutch (or Flemish). Gotcha :-) (Australian for "I
got you").

>Are you telling me this "isn't standard"?

I never entered into any discussion on whether anything in English is
standard or not. I'm not qualified.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Bert Peeters                         Tel: +61 02 202344
Department of Modern Languages               002 202344
University of Tasmania at Hobart        Fax: 002 207813
GPO Box 252C                            Bert.Peeters@modlang.utas.edu.au
Hobart TAS 7001
Australia
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: Latin alphabet
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 01:46:27 GMT

In article <29E63ABC.8482@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
<
<I don't think you can compare writing system and weights and measures.
<No one has ever been thrown out of school for "speaking" MKS or had a
<wooden shoe tied around their neck for talking in British units.

Now, *there's* an idea.  :-)  (OK, I'll admit to being a claqueur for
_Syste`me International_.)

<It's probably better for a language to work on its OWN writing system,
<though, or else they might get stuck with a lousy one that was a poor
<fit.

If all languages did this, there would be no need for linguists to do it
for them.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Latin alphabet (was: Inventing a writing system?)
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:24:31 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Apr13.193823.14562@athena.cs.uga.edu>, mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
> In article <1992Apr13.174423.5447@spss.com> markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder) writes:
> 
>>Spanish has an undeserved reputation for orthographic regularity.
>>In Latin America, at least, you have to worry about s, z, and c; g and j
>>(and occasionally x); ll and y; h; b and v; and you'll have worse problems
>>if you're one of those speakers who likes to leave out s's and d's.
> 
> In Spain, ll/y and c/z/s are perfectly predictable.  (C and Z are the same
> sound; C is used before e and i, Z elsewhere, if memory serves me right.)

For that I award you a _zero_, not a *cero grade.  But this word is
exceptional.

> G and J are no problem.  G before i or e is the same sound as J elsewhere.

Sound, sure, but that doesn't mean the spelling is consistent.
There are exceptions: por ejemplo / *egemplo, etc.  In this examples, and
others, j replaces former x.  While Me'xico is sometimes spelled
Me'jico, it's never written *Me'gico.  Similarly, the place name Xe'rez de
la Frontera (whence _sherry_) is now written Je'rez, not *Gerez.
And Xime'nez is now Jime'nez.

> ...
> B and V are a genuine problem -- not phonemically distinct in any major
> dialect as far as I know.

In initial position they're distinct in the otherwise excellent Spanish
of Chile.  (Sorry about the value judgment; but then, I teach German
anyway, not Spanish.)

--Leo Connolly			Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders.
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: Latin alphabet
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 01:29:11 GMT

In article <29E6336C.8296@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
<In article <1992Apr4.191401.5450@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
<
[In response to the allegation that the Chinese script spread through Asia
 on the back of imperialism:]
<>Not through imperialism.  Japan, Korea, the Ryu^kyu^ Islands, and Vietnam
<>gladly adopted Chinese characters, as they had no writing systems of their
<>own.  Imperialism had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
<
<I'm not being sarcastic, I just want some hard facts about this.
<Japanese is VERY ill-suited to Chinese characters; kanji just doesn't
<fit it.

I strongly agree.  In fact, I've long said that Japanese has one of the
most awkward writing systems in the world.

<Japanese structure is VERY
<different from Chinese; I can't imagine that the speakers would freely
<adopt a system of writing for a language so different structurally.

Well, they *did* adopt it freely--and that's not surprising, since they
had no writing system of their own.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Animal Grammar
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:38:27 GMT

In article <ONEIL.92Apr14005431@husc10.harvard.edu> oneil@husc10.harvard.edu (John O'Neil) writes:
>In article <22559@alice.att.com> rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin) writes:
>   In article <ONEIL.92Apr13001646@husc10.harvard.edu>, oneil@husc10.harvard.edu (John O'Neil) writes:
>   > In article <22546@alice.att.com> rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin) writes:
>   > 
>   >    My Doberman knows over a hundred words
>   >
>   >    [...]
>   >
>   >    Incidentally, I don't test her vocabulary, or set up tricks. So she's
>   >    quite motivated to listen, it's always about something interesting.
>   > 
>   > Have you ever heard of "Clever Hans", by any chance?
>
>   Why yes, I have!  The horse who could answer any question, but only,
>   it turned out, if he could see the questioner!
>
>Wrong!  Clever Hans could answer the question only if he could see
>*his owner*.  The questions were about simple arithmetic -- not only
>could Clever Hans understand German (I think it was German) but he
>could also do math!
>
>Clever Hans failed to answer correctly under two circumstances: either
>when the owner was out of sight, or when the owner didn't know the
>answer himself (i.e. "What's the square root of nine?")
>

I had thought that Clever Hans just relied on the visual cues of the
people around him.  When he was asked, "How much is 9 and 2?" people
around him would look down at his hoof -- his signal to start tapping.
When he reached 11, then people would look up, which he knew meant stop.
Nothing too amazing there.

Regards,
Janis C.
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Why are English infinitives so different?
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:28:12 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Apr5.190053.12271@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ritley@uiucmrl.bitnet () writes:
>
>It has always perplexed me that the
>infinitives in English are referred to with the word 'to',
>such as 'to be', 'to make', etc., but that the infinitives
>in some other languages are often referred to as single words
>(sein, machen; ser, hacer; etc.).
>
>Might anyone know why this is so, or whether there are
>other languages which refer to their infinitives as English does?

Hebrew comes to mind ("infinitives" begin with the preposition "l-"
which means "to" or "toward").  

The term "infinitive" comes from Latin grammar.  There's no reason to
assume that all languages even _have_ infinitives.  English doesn't
have the same kind of infinitive that Latin and Spanish do.  If you
look for the nearest English equivalent to a Latin infinitive, you get
two words ("to" followed by the verb).  This 2-word construction is called
an infinitive because it is the nearest equivalent to a Latin infinitive
-- nothing more profound than that.  The same is true of Hebrew.
-- 
==========================================================================
Michael A. Covington, Ph.D. |  mcovingt@uga.cc.uga.edu  |  ham radio N4TMI
Artificial Intelligence Programs | U of Georgia | Athens, GA 30602  U.S.A.
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: markrose@spss.com (Mark Rosenfelder)
Subject: Re: Written and Spoken Language(s)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 17:27:21 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

In article <204689@unix.cis.pitt.edu> djbpitt@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) writes:
>Last week, in a discussion of Chinese trees and forests, a contributor
>was mercilessly flamed for confusing orthography and morphology. Several
>other contributors announced in no uncertain terms that speech is
>primary and that writing is not a proper object for linguistic study.

Who said anything of the sort?  Several people stated that speech is
*primary* in linguistics, but I don't think anyone said writing is not 
to be studied, or even that it is not important.

>The reference to written Chinese as a written "language," rather than as
>the writing system used to record a spoken language, leads me to wonder
>whether the emphasis on the primacy of spoken language is appropriate.
>I realize that this emphasis has been an article of faith in linguistics
>for a good long time, 

For good reasons.  All languages are spoken, while only a minority are
written; you learn a spoken language before learning a written one;
writing loses much of what goes on in speech; more speaking is done 
than writing; writing is heavily influenced by speech; writing is
more prestigious so speech needs a little theoretical boost.

>but if spoken and written Chinese can be compared
>to a linguistic culture that combined spoken Italian, French, &c. with
>written Latin, the relationship between spoken and written Chinese does
>not seem obviously comparable to the relationship between, say, written
>and spoken modern Italian, French, &c.  

Why not?  (It's true that the Cantonese, say, are not encouraged to write
Cantonese; but the Sicilians aren't encouraged to write Sicilian, either.)

>If we can speak of morphology
>in medieval Latin (synchronically), why can we not speak of morphology
>in written Chinese?

We need to talk about morphology in spoken Chinese, so using the same term
for a different process in written Chinese would only cause confusion.
Unfortunately I don't know if there's a term for the study of the
composition of written (Chinese or other) characters... graphemics?  
glyphology?  graphotomy?
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: peeters@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (bert peeters)
Subject: Re: Why are English infinitives so different?
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 23:25:22 GMT

blehr@idt.unit.no (Anders Blehr) writes:

>That the infinitive markers are used somewhat differently in different
>languages does not necessarily imply that they're not equivalent.

I guess Anders and I have different definitions of the word *equivalent*.
I would argue that different behavior is evidence for different status
- not radically different, but different nonetheless.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Bert Peeters                         Tel: +61 02 202344
Department of Modern Languages               002 202344
University of Tasmania at Hobart        Fax: 002 207813
GPO Box 252C                            Bert.Peeters@modlang.utas.edu.au
Hobart TAS 7001
Australia
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Subject: Re: 8I8
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 23:55:03 GMT

To all the people trying to "analyse" Chinese characters by their components:
Please give up.  I don't have time to explain; go read DeFrancis's _The
Chinese Language:  Fact and fantasy_.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
From: oneil@husc10.harvard.edu (John O'Neil)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Animal Grammar
Date: 13 Apr 92 07:16:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc10.ONEIL.92Apr13001646
Organization: Harvard Arts and Sciences Computer Services, Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: rhh@alice.att.com's message of 11 Apr 92 15:07:05 GMT

In article <22546@alice.att.com> rhh@alice.att.com (r hardin) writes:

   My Doberman knows over a hundred words

   Among them names for a couple dozen toys.

   All her toys have names, chosen for my convenience, that I use
   consistently;  I always use the names in phrases.

   I notice, when she's standing amid the clutter of toys, I can
   say ``Get your tiny ball,'' and she's alert, what is it I'm saying?

   I repeat it, and then on the third time I change the verb

   ``Susie, get your tiny ball. (ears up) Get your tiny ball. (about to act,
   but undecided)  Where's your tiny ball? (grabs tiny ball and we go out)''

   I think I have probably always done this verb change trick for her.

   Incidentally, I don't test her vocabulary, or set up tricks. So she's
   quite motivated to listen, it's always about something interesting.

Have you ever heard of "Clever Hans", by any chance?
--
John O'Neil
"Occasionally I believed I had thoughts of my own --  who does not now
 and then become the victim of such delusions?"
						-- Paul Feyerabend
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: shoulson@startide.ctr.columbia.edu (Mark E. Shoulson)
Subject: Re: Latin alphabet
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 13:56:54 GMT


I'd forgotten to mention this, but perhaps you might want to consider:

I will not come down on any side with respect to the initial question of
how to make a writing system, but some stuff has been said about alphabets
wherein the shape of the letterform indicates the sound made (Devanagari
has been mentioned in this topic, for reasons I can't fathom, even knowing
the alphabet, and the Tolkienists should be talking about the F"eanorian
Tengwar, which often uses features of the letterforms to indicate features
such as voicing, nasality, and fricativeness).  I have at home a book by
Alexander Melville Bell (father of Graham Bell of telephone fame) about his
invention, the "Visible Speech".  It was intended as a teaching tool for
the deaf.

Essentially, it's a highly precise phonetic alphabet; it's been said you
can transcribe sneezes and coughs with it, and from what I recall from the
book, you can.  The letterforms indicate features of the sound, with closed
shapes indicating plosive, open shapes fricatives, wavy lines instead of
closing the consonant showing nasality, vowels represented by vertical
lines with cirves on them showing where in the mouth the vowel is.  The
basic shape of the curved consonant shows the point of articulation: let's
see if I can remember....  U shape is tongue-tip, inverted-U is top of
tongue, C-shape is back of tongue, inverted-C is lip... I could be very
wrong on these.  It's actually fairly interesting, though perhaps not so
close to perfection and neutrality as the author might have hoped.  There
are lots of modifying sounds to indicate aspiration, unaspiration, wider or
narrower sounds, I think also length and tone and stress, etc etc ad
nauseum.

I probably wouldn't recommend it as anyone's native writing system; its
granularity is too fine.  You can transcribe accents and the like.  Perhaps
a simplified form would be usable, but may not be worth it.

This is just to mention the concept, for those who are interested.  I can
find the book and write more about it; send e-mail if you're interested.

~mark

"The electric light invades the dunnest deep of Hades.
 Cries Pluto, 'twixt his snores: 'O tempora! O mores!"
               -- "Bella Peeler Silcox", quoted by Ambrose Bierce in
                  _The Devil's Dictionary_, s.v. "Leonine"
      o o     o   o             o o   o     o        o   o     o o          
              o                       o	o   o  	   o       o   	 o     	     
  o   o     o     o         o     o     o   o      o   	 o     o     N2KOT   
Mark E. Shoulson:  shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu
From: djbpitt@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Written and Spoken Language(s)
Date: 14 Apr 92 01:47:38 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <29E9FBDD.26027@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu 
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>You are adhering to the "letter of the definition" on this one.  As far
>as I'm concerned, ASL is as much a spoken language as any mouth-ear
>language is.  It is real-time, interactive, and immediate.

Fair enough.  I was concentrating on "spoken" as depending on phonation,
but the real-time, interactive, and immediate aspects certainly connect
ASL more with spoken than with written languages.

Best,

David
=======================================================================
Professor David J. Birnbaum         djbpitt@vms.cis.pitt.edu [Internet]
The Royal York Apartments, #802     djbpitt@pittvms.bitnet   [Bitnet]
3955 Bigelow Boulevard              voice: 1-412-687-4653
Pittsburgh, PA  15123  USA          fax:   1-412-624-9714
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: hlin@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (hua.t.lin)
Subject: Re: feminine as default (summary)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:42:35 GMT
Keywords: feminine generic default

> What languages use the feminine as the unmarked or generic case?
> How sexist do the speakers of these languages appear to be?
> Please reply directly to me, I may miss posted replies.  Thanks in advance!

In hakka (a dialect in southern china), it is common to refer to
`siblings' as `sisters'. A question like, "How many sisters do you have?",
actually meant "How many siblings do you have?". And "How many brothers
do you have?" is to be taken literally to include only male siblings.
Of course, an answer to "how many sisters" could be "one elder-brother,
and one younger-sister, altogether 3 sisters including myself".
It is also common for a grandmother to call a grandson "daughter",
much like a father calling his male child "son".
How sexist are people using hakka? I belive not any less (or more) than
other chinese.
From: COX@HWS.BITNET
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Japanese language houses
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:25:00 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet

Hello,
     I was wondering if anyone out there in netland has heard of, worked on,
lived in, or had anything to do with language houses. I hope so, because we
(a group of students here at Hobart and William Smith Colleges) want to
start a Japanese language house.  We need all the info that we can get,
because we need to convince the admin. adn Res. Life. So if anyone has any info
please don't hesitate to email me.  I will pass along any info that people
want.  Thanks in advance for your help,

                                       Dan
                                   COX@HWS.BITNET
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: James_E._Grigsby.ES_M7@XEROX.COM
Subject: Re:  East-West Music mixture
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:38:58 GMT

 Regarding masseyj@novavax.nova.edu 's message: ". . . Japanese who attempted
to fuse shamisen or taiko or shakuhachi with Western music could very well get
an audience here similar in size to that of an Ofra Haza or Ladysmith Black
Mombazo. . . "

Perhaps you haven't heard of groups like:  SHANG SHANG TYPHOON, SHOUKICHI KINA
& CHAMPLUSE, or TAMA.  These groups play a mixture of Japanese and Okinawan
traditional folk music together with reggae,  Western pop, and rock.  They're
considered sort of underground in Japan, although they record for well
distributed labels with relatively big budgets.   Most of the Japanese for whom
I've played this music respond with "kimochi warui !" (the same response I get
when I mention gagaku or other traditional musics).   I spoke to a lady in the
A&R department of CBS/Sony who thought that SHANG SHANG TYPHOON could play well
to Western audiences, but the suits who make these decisions would rather push
some idol singer trying in vain to pronounce English like a native.   Omoshiroi
ne. . .
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: richie@zoot.engin.umich.edu (Staney Dharmakusuma)
Subject: SEC
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 17:07:36 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: richie@zoot.engin.umich.edu


Does anybody know the Japanese equivalent of
SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission)?

Thanks.

Staney