From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: = Opportunity etc. (Re: So whats in a constitution.......?
Date: 29 Dec 92 20:02:38 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1992Dec28.221436.11514@athena.mit.edu>, tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:
|> From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)

 [I write]
|> >one thing, but for a child that is given no oppty to learn is another.
|> >Not every child is as independent as you might seem to think, IMO.

[TY writes]
|>  But then, not every child is as "dependent" as you might seem to think.
|>  My arguments are based on the premiss: 
|>    Children (or adults) have the potential to be independent and 
|>    the best way to let them be productive is to nurture, support
|>    and encourage independence (or self dependence in other words).

Well, this seems to come down to a nature vs. nurture argument; i.e.,
how much each factors into one's development. 

|>  As far as oppurtunity goes, its there - if one is willing to work for it.
|>  Please note that I am not saying "there is no lack of opportunity, there
|>  is no discrimination, there are no unnecessary hurdles.....;" After all
|>  we live amongst a wide variety of souls. Problems, difficulties exist.
|>  But they can be overcome. And the best way to overcome all that is for
|>  the individual to take care of hisself/herself. To think. To persevere.
|>  To exist. I do believe in the exceptional power of the individual to
|>  build his or her destiny/life/happiness. Your claim: "Not every child 
|>  is as independent as you might seem to think, IMO" is an assumption on
|>  your part, of human nature. Thats perhaps where we disagree: what is the 
|>  fundamental nature/ability of a human (child). 

That is part of what we disagree on. How does an individual "gain" the 
exception power to build his or her destiny? Is this something that is
learned? 
The major point that we disagree on is your almost complete dismissal of
environmental influences on how one thinks/behaves. Most of the 
'successful' people who I've observed have come from strong families
with at least a reasonable means. Now we might debate on what successful 
means, but I think you catch my drift. There are always exceptions, but
most of the kids that grow up in urban areas have to fight a helluvalot
more adversity than kids in the 'burbs, and most of them don't make it.
What is your explanation of this phenomenon?
I've helped tutor some kids from SouthEast Wash. DC (a pretty bad area 
of the Murder Capital), and have heard some gruesome and graphic stories
from *2nd* graders, and they ain't tall tales either.
 
|>  I think the other way around; I believe:
|>    Your thoughts affect a lot of what you experience.
|>    A human is potentially rational being and an original thinker.
|>    A human chooses what he or she experiences.

Again, this is where we disagree on how one's environment affects hisself
or herself, and how one can affect his or her environment. The fact that 
my skin is brown affects the way people perceive me and the way I perceive
them. The fact that I'm 5'11" affects how people react to me. The fact 
that I'm an engineer results in certain effects. Some of these things I 
have control over, others I do not. 

|>  It is not important to have background material. In fact, it is better not
|>  to have personal details, because it tends to make many explain things
|>  away to circumstances/environment. I can claim, quite easily, that there
|>  isn't much substance/truth behind all that you say; that all you say has
|>  been affected by your past, your experiences;....blah blah blah
|>  But, IMO, your thoughts matter. And I don't write off anyone. 

I take into account one's bkgd, because it enlightens me on their 
perspective. What I try not to do is write off their perceptions as 
completely due to their bkgd. If I did, I would not have discourse with 
anyone, and that would be no fun. :-) 

As an example, I don't believe in a color blind society. When I meet
someone who is white, it affects my initial reactions to that person,
just as much as if they're Indian. What I try to do is recognize my 
inherent prejudices and keep an open mind that people almost never 
fit stereotypes. This sometimes works, sometimes it does not, but at
least I make a conscious effort to recognize this shortcoming. I tell
my white friends that they'll never fully understand the minority 
experience in America, just like I'll never fully comprehend life
as an African American. 

|>  This is very important issue: "experiences affecting one's thinking..."
|>  Because if we admit that to be truth, then no one should complain about
|>  racism, prejudice, discrimination etc. etc. No one should complain because
|>  the racist/discriminating person is being true to experiences. Furthermore,
|>  lets extend this argument to reflect about following questions:

Now hold up a second, you seem to try to take these experience arguments
to an extreme. I would say that ignorance (lack of experience) is a 
driving reason for racism, etc. I think that most people are not born
as murderers, klansmen, lawyers, etc. Much of that is learned.

|> >Is there but one way to reason? Is there one truth?
|> 
|>  What is your answer then? Why?

Well, I asked the question of you first, but I'll shoot first anyway.

No, there is not one truth, or one way to reason. Human beings act in
strange ways that psychologists and economists cannot quantify. Issues
and answers are not yes/no, black/white. There is a lot of gray out
there. 
Why? Haven't thought about that much, and am not sure if I really care 
to. I care more about driving those prejudices away.

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian