From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Styling, profiling and pretending
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 23:26:26 GMT

In article <1eejdrINN472@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>I wrote:
>>No, I'm sure you're not alone on this.  Yet, there are women who
>>would think a guy was crazy to make a proclamation like that, on day
>>one, and wouldn't want to have anything to do with the guy any more.
>Then, they are the wrong women in the first place.

What do you mean by "the wrong women?"  Maybe they aren't ready to
hear someone's proclamation yet.  Maybe they are just interested in
getting to know the other person.  I would think it's up to them to
decide what they want.

>In the case I illustrated, it was on the second date that the man
>told me where he was at.  I've also been told stuff like this on the
>first date as well.

Speaking personally, I don't make any kinds of commitments after the
first few dates.  It doesn't make sense to me.  I don't even know the
other person that well; neither do they know me.  For me, the first
few dates are a chance to get to know the other person and vice versa,
to determine if there will be anything else afterwards.  In the
situation I described, after the second date, we were still just
getting to know each other.  We weren't even a "couple" until a couple
of months after that, and she didn't say she loved me until two months
after we became a couple.

Your mileage may vary.

>>It's too bad we can't wear signs that say "The falling in love
>>type" ...
>At least women would have a clue to work on...8 )

But don't you think you should wait until you know the other person a
little better before making commitments (or holding others to
commitments)?

>>Also, a relationship where there is an unequal balance in feelings
>>is not inherently bad.  It is still possible to have fun and good
>>times with your SO, even if they do not feel for you exactly what
>>you feel for them.
>This is playacting and phony in some ways.

I still don't understand how this is playacting and phony, if I've
been honest.  I guess we just have a different definition.

>Even guys sometimes swing a number on women,
>verbal or otherwise, along the lines of:  "Well, don't take this
>outing/gift/good sex too seriously."  That pulls the plug on any
>electricity going.  You can't be yourself.

I know some guys pull some lines on women (and vice versa -- switch
genders as you will), but I never said anything like that to my ex.

>>In general, a relationship isn't inherently bad unless there is some
>>kind of deception going on (lying, sneaking behind the other's back,
>>etc.) or some kind of abuse.
>Yeah, right.  Some women might like loving a man too much, but
>I've been there and it's no party, believe me.  I think one can
>fool herself only so far.

Well, I loved a woman too much once, and I got burned.  I don't hold
her responsible for my feelings.  I was in love, she wasn't.  The
emotions coming from my direction were stronger than she wanted to
deal with.  These things happen sometimes.  I don't see how blaming
other people helps.

>Again, let me remind you of female machista and disingeniousness in
>order to hold on to someone.  If you didn't know then, that's too
>bad and I don't fault you, but you are asking for it later on if you
>repeat this.

The point is, unless someone says "I am hurting because I love you and
you don't love me", there is no way I or anyone else can *know* that
the other person is hurting.

>The truly forthright sister will say right off they are not looking
>for a commitment and also give reasons why she wouldn't want
>anything or anyone to cramp her style at the moment.

I have heard of cases where someone said they didn't want any
commitment, met the right person, and wanted a commitment with that
person.

>Did girlfriend give you any particulars at the time as to why and how
>she was able to accept her unequal relationship with you?  Or did she
>just say, well--OK.

My ex never once said "I want a commitment."

When she first told me she loved me, she also said that it was ok that
I didn't love her, because I was the nicest man she'd ever met.  (I'm
not lying or bragging.  From what she told me, I treated her better
than any of her past SOs.)

When we broke up, she wanted to know why.  When I gave her the reasons
(basically the ones you're giving -- when one loves and the other
doesn't, things don't work) she got angry at me.  "Why can't you just
let me love you?", she said.  "Why do guys always run away at the sound
of the L-word?"

So basically, I can't win.

>>You have as much power in a relationship as you are willing to
>>retain.
>Brother, this is the usual macho line.  Sharing each other also
>means sharing power within the relationship.  There are tradeoffs:
>how much you are willing to give to the other person in order to get
>something.  Too bad you can't measure intangibles, like emotions.
>Otherwise, you just don't sit there and take up knitting!

Well, the only power that applies in this case is the power to be
hurt, which lies in the individual.  I didn't set out to hurt my ex.
She was hurt because things didn't work out like she hoped they
would, that's all.  The only way she wouldn't have hurt is if we'd
never gone out, or if I'd fallen in love with her.

Surely, you've broken up with someone, and they've been hurt.  Whose
fault was that?

>Unfortunately, the way the karma of the world works, when you
>want a serious relationship, you get the players.  When you wanna
>play around, you get the serious people!  You gotta kiss a lotta
>frogs...

I hope you are not implying I'm a player.  I think I was pretty
honest, given the entire situation.  I also never did anything behind
her back.  She knew exactly what was going on.  She held as many of
the cards as I did.

I also think relationships work better if they grow on a day-by-day
basis as opposed to having people make commitments early on that they
may not be able to live up to.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american