HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mvw@anywhere.umd.edu (Martin V. Walser)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: VOTE NOW!
Summary: Net Police
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:39:34 GMT
Organization: Maryversity of Uniland

In article <batemanc.713805671@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) writes:
>Todays 'phone poll question is:
>
>HAVE YOU BEEN ANNOYED BY LOREN YET?
>
>If 'yes', dial 0898 345 456
>If 'no',  dial 0898 435 457
>
>--
>
>Mad Chris, donning large, flame proof suit...

   As the keeper of the FAQ, and general rgf.* heirachy answer person, Loren
is entitled to try to steer conversations toward the appropriate areas in the
heirarchy just as we are entitled to post noise all over and ignore those
steerings if we wish.  No need to publicly try to make fun of Loren's efforts
which are always, at least, polite and meant for the good of rgf.*.  If one
doesn't agree with Loren's position, one can always press 'n'.

Mart  (mvw@anywher.umd.edu)
From: sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Clarification (was Apology..)
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:13:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: cc.1992Aug19.151300.58258
Organization: Utah State University

In article <Bt8Dpp.F9C@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, 
 burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:

> Sorry folks, about the recent flame war between Chris L. VanZenten
> and myself.  

Sheesh at least get my name right if you are going to apologize for 
me. Flame war? You call this a flame war?

> Chris has now taken to bouncing my email messages to
> him and reproducing PRIVATE email onto the net. 

Well first, I have no way of bouncing your email message back to you,
Burdick. I just told you that so you would quit sending me mail. Looks
like it worked. Second, I have not reproduced any email on the net. In 
a post I made about netiquette, I mentioned that fact that you made a 
really lame and unprovoked attack on me in email.
 
> I realize both of us look like assholes and are eating up bandwidth, 
> so this is my last post on the subject. 

Well, that's good. But speak for yourself. Everyone looks like an ass
hole to someone, but what does your holy cannon of netiquette say about
apologizing for someone else?

> Again, I am REALLY sorry I started this whole thing.

Apology accepted.

Okay, 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chadd VanZanten SL9B4@CC.USU.EDU  ``You know, I thought this was a
good idea but this is one weird mama-jama.''  -- TV's Frank, MST3K
From: ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Richard Pieri/Stainless Steel Rat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: SR: Holes wanted
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:13:20 GMT
	<11AUG199213593951@jane.uh.edu> <Bsu530.7yI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
	<12AUG199213003197@jane.uh.edu>
Reply-To: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
In-reply-to: chem7l@jane.uh.edu's message of 12 Aug 92 18:00:00 GMT
X-Get-A-Clue: Have two, they're small.
X-Signature-Virus-Protection: Version 1.51
X-Posting-Software: GNUS 3.14.1 [ NNTP-based News Reader for GNU Emacs ]

[armor cuts power of attack... "new system"]

SRII will use this method, but with revised firearms tables. For example,
all handguns are rated M2, with a Power ranging from 4 (holdouts) to 10
(heavy). Armor drops the Power of the attack by its rating, then you resist
what's left with your Body. Even armored, a hit from a .44 Magnum (10M2) is
gonna *HURT*.

Then, there are the "extra deadly" combat rules: double the Power of all
weapons. Can even a Troll with 10 points of armor stage down 10M2 (20M2
for a heavy pistol, less 10 points of armor for 10M2) much? :-)

--Rat

||||| | | | |  |  |  |   |   |    |    |    |   |   |  |  |  |  | | | | | |||||
                                                   __        ___ 
Richard Pieri, Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat/   | /| / /   | The Worlds
Internet: ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu   /__  |/ |/ / /| | Welfare Works
    UUCP: ...!northeastern.edu!meceng!ratinox  /   | /| / / / | | Association:
  BITNET: UA_RLP@NUHUB{.BITNET}               /__  |/ |/ / /  | | I will solve
  USNail: 14 Westdale RD  Holbrook, MA 02343 /   | /| / / /___| | any problem
 ICBMnet: 42 deg 1 min N, 71 deg 0 min W    /    |/ |/ /_//_____| for you.
From: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. gaming, was Re: Diceless or Senseless?
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:51:27 GMT
Reply-To: doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Organization: Department of Chemistry, UCLA

In article <1992Aug10.232813.1@wharton.upenn.edu>, millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>Ah, but a game, which is just a way of making another noun out of "to
>play", doesn't always have to involve dice rolling. If you want to roll
>dice you have craps, diplomacy, or parcheesi (your fave).

Sorry, Loren, but there just aren't any dice in Diplomacy.

B^)


-Doug Gibson
 doug@abby.chem.ucla.edu

Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.

"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: Forkless or Senseless (Winging It)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: just a joke
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Distribution: na
Date: 13 Aug 1992 08:24 EST  

In article <65742@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7219a@prism.gatech.EDU
 (Christopher Michael Lawyer) writes...

>While I will readily admit that CHILI can become expensive
>to run...I mean eat,  I have found that house rules..er I
>mean spices and flavors are just as good as the official
>supliments and are quite cheep.

I still say that the makers of CHILI are money-grubbers!!!
Why, in Cincinnati, they have put out a multitude of versions (which are 
all just variations on a theme...one could effectively argue that the food 
they call CHILI really isn't CHILI...).

>>Well, WINGS is, perhaps, the only food designed especially for forkless 
>>eating.  Forkless eating just doesn't work with that archaic CHILI food.  
>>But CHILI doesn't represent REAL eating anyway.  I mean, if you let an 
>>implement do all the manipulating of the food, all you're doing is the 
>>chewing.  That's not REAL eating!  Eating is getting into the act, touching 
>>the food, and not being overly concerned about table manners and napkin 
>>placements.  You damn munchkin salad fork users, anyway!
> 
>And that's what takes away from the REAL eating effect.  Oh sure,
>you get to touch the food and all, but where is the random element 
>of chance????  When you use forks, you never are sure just what
>combination of food will wind up on the fork.  Each time you chew,
>you never know exactly what is going in your mouth.  That is REAL
>eating.  I mean, when you use your hands, you always get exactly 
>what you grab.  And let's suppose your hands are no longer a fair
>arbitrator of the type of food that should be eaten.  Suppose your
>mouth wants more food, but your hands seem hell bent towards grabbing
>for your drink.  I tell you eating with just your hands could lead
>to bad meals if your hands are dictators.

Well, you could have the same problem using forks is your hands are hell 
bent on determining exactly what you eat.  A good hand will shake off 
objects on a fork that don't go together.  I mean, if a random fork grab 
produces three beans and a little green pepper, why a GOOD hand would 
ignore that fork grab and try again (hopefully getting some meat on the 
second try).  But if you really trust your hands, there's no real reason to 
use a fork.  The beauty of WINGS is that there's meat in every bite!  For 
those who can't quite handle the heat, there's blue cheese sauce to dip 
into (particularly demonic hands will ignore the sauce altogether).  If you 
can't trust your hands, they'll ruin the meal whether or not you're using a 
fork.  And if you haven't tried WINGS (the Buffalo version) then all your 
opinions are baseless and you're a snot.  So there!

                                                  James S. Zakany
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chili Wars
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 15:41:50 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <4812@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>In article <14997@umd5.umd.edu> mvw@anywhere.umd.edu (Martin V. Walser) writes:
>>In article <4741@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> 
>>    I was going to stay out of this mindless food system war, but I MUST take 
>>exception to that last statement.  You've OBVIOUSLY never partaken of a 
>>quality homebrew
>
>	Obvious, perhaps. Wrong, certainly. I've not only tried homebrew
>(in 7 different forms) but american, german, etc., because people tried to
>claim there was a difference. 
>
>	There isn't. Aside from the lack or presence of bubbles, and the
>bite or lack of the stronger alcohol contents, all alcoholic beverages past
>1% taste precisely the same. Like the rotted organic matter that they are.

	Sir, I must take exception.  I myself was never a great fan of the
BEER system until I began researching its possibilities.  On the other hand
I have found that many people liked my MEAD system with its sweet taste and
sunny honey tones (that is, good storytelling potential!).
	Nevertheless as one who is hated the commerical BEER systems like
CoC (Call of Coors - *shudder*) I find that house rules greatly improve the
system.

>	Stick to real, nonharmful beverages. Or at least something with
>pleasurable taste, even Kool-Aid. 

	Sir, I cannot account for your taste or mine, but perhaps you are
unaware of the health _benefits_ of house rule BEER systems and related
games.  It is well known that several short sessions per day significantly
reduce the risk of heart diesease (though it is well known that too many
sessions can lead to severe problems with your character - too much of a
good thing ...).  Furthermore, in the house rules systems of this kind,
there are many vitamins and minerals (er, optional rules) which elevate
these games far and above their commericial look-alikes as far as health
goes.
	My BEER system requires none of the fancy chemicals (er, game-aids)
that KOOLAID does, it contains nothing but barley, hops, yeast and water.
My MEAD systems needs only honey, yeast, and water.  Fine natural wholesome
ingrediants.  

Skaal,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Axly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:05:05 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey) writes:

>Villains and Vigilantes has less definition than Marvel, and is for those
>gaming groups who have a well-defined world they want to create within a
>system.  That's another reflection of my problem with Champs:  no real esta-
>blished history.  They've tried, and they've got some decent progress with
>VIPER and some of the supplements (I particularly enjoy CLOWNS), but if you
>look at the points for Mechanon, you get this very incongruous 442-point
>"Villain Bonus" that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Champs simply can't
>deal well with established characters.

In generating one character who can take on an entire superteam, you are
required to spend a rather large number of points. Since Ultron..I mean
Mechanon :) is intended to do exactly that, he has the Villian Bonus.
He also has disadvantages, quite a few in fact. Villian Bonus is merely
an accounting feature and GM's who are designing their own supervillians
for Champions seldom bother balancing their points. They assign the
appropriate powers and disads. The point system is there to let him/her
know just how tough a villian he's made.

Axly
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Why the hell does anyone ever play anything at all?
Reply-To: sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 00:51:01 GMT

ericg@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Eric Chris Garrison) writes:
>
>Sure.  That's what rec.games.frp.advocacy if FOR, Bryan, it is the alt.flame
>of the gaming Net.  

I would have to disagree with this.  Read the definition of "Advocacy."
It refers to supporting what you believe in.  There is nothing in the
definition that says such discussion has to cut down what someone else
believes in.

That is, I can be an advocate of Brand X without flaming Brand Y.  Try
it - you might enjoy it, and I'll read your posts with increased
respect.

-- 
  - Steffan O'Sullivan		         sos@oz.plymouth.edu
From: hall@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Robert J. Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Pompous
Keywords: Pompous
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:47:02 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle


 > Tim Dunn writes:
 > Me? I'm so pompous that I demand my own category, a 7!

Such a rating is a medical impossibility. No human skull is capable of housing
such a pompous ego. Your head would explode. You will have to settle for being
a complete and total git.

 > mperry@waikato.ac.nz writes:

 > I feel that I am more of:
 > willing to listen to reason; ready to ask opinions of others.
 > will argue with any disagreement and agreements; Always ready to question.

Since you didn't even sign your name, I couldn't possibly rate you any higher
than a '1'. Eek, eek, a mouse! :-)

 > I take it that Bob classes himself as Mr Average or Mr Humble, and everyone
 > else is pompous, a doormat, a git, etc. This action in itself may make Bob
 > fall into his own catergory #6.

You may presume no such thing! Average is by definition 'Average', and the
highest portion of people will fall into this category. As for my pomposity
rating, well that all depends on how I feel that particular day. At the
moment, I'm feeling like a 3 on the pomposity scale.

One final comment: negative pomposity is clearly an impossibility. A zero
pomposity would indicate a lack of self-awareness, placing the individual
among the ranks of the lesser beasts.

For all of you pompous jigaboos who disagree with the pomposity scale, I say
to go to heck! (Oops, my pomposity suffered a sudden sharp setback there... ;)

-- 
 Bob Hall,                 | "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
 Workstation Peripheral    | Then give up. No use being a damn fool about it."
 Boeing Computer Services  |                                     -Groucho Marx
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jlb@engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Lawrence Bailey)
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:12:30 EDT
Organization: The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor

Please read the last part of my last post for my real evaluation of the
situation -- to wit, experienced and cooperative players can play and work
well with _ANY_ system.  These players can modify poor rules and make better
calls to cover for poorly written rules.

But has anybody noticed the amount of discussion necessary to define Iron Man's
armor?  In virtually _every_ system but Champions, Iron Man's armor is quite
a simple device, just something you carry that adds to attributes and gives
flight, senses, and ranged attack.  In Champs, you have to debate for a _LONG_
time what mechanics and what ads/disads relate to the game.  This is exactly
the kind of problem that makes Champs not only a bad system for newbies, but
a lesser system for middling players as well.  Marvel retains the simplicity
and freedom that lie in defining powers separately.  What further makes this
kind of design bad is that the way you specify the power actually matters in
how the power interacts with others.  Dr. Strange uses lots of powers, but
they're all magic.  Yet Leech, a mutant with the ability to suppress mutant
powers, has a good chance of Draining Dr. Strange as long as the powers have
not been expressed _exactly_ right.  Now while this is _NOT_ a problem for
experienced and good players, it is a problem for groups working up to this
exalted status.  The rules don't matter so much for experienced groups, so
their experiences of good play are pretty much irrelevant to the specific
system.  The middle and beginning groups are the ones that need a good rule
system, and Champions isn't it for them.  Virtually every other supers system
out there doesn't confuse like Champs, because nobody else defined powers as
abstract effects.  This is at the hub of Champions' problems.
-- 
Jeff Bailey, jlb@ccs.itd.umich.edu (Open 24 Hours a Day!)
Standard disclaimer - If you wanted U/M's views, you came to the wrong place. 
"The owner of the game deals and plays first." -- Nuclear War/Escalation
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pomposity
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:34:05 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center



Sir, your scale is quite off the mark.  First, it is based entirely wrongly.
Any proper scale which includes an "average human" value is MUCH better
made if that value be set to zero, and all other values accordingly.


I'm sorry, but I refuse to even look further at your system, since it is
so inherently flawed.
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: PCHEM14@Zeus.unomaha.edu (FALL88)
Subject: Re: sprinters revisited (was Re: GURPS Total Rewrite)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:36:37 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <2A88A43E.12501@ics.uci.edu> mmadsen@bonnie.ics.uci.edu writes:

> Why does dexterity add to running speed?  Nobody questions this.  Reflexes
> should help when dodging (certainly) and getting off the blocks, but
> musculature is _far_ more important than dexterity when it comes to running.
> Also, health does _not_ matter until about forty yards or so (or after
> fighting, etc.).
> 
> Has everyone here neglected to run in the past few years?

From what I understand, running speed is a balance of power against mass,
and long-distance running is a balance of energy required for power against
endurance.

Power would seem to indicate ST, which is entirely neglected.  Long term
endurance would seem to indicate HT, which is already there.  You are right,
DX has noting to do with it.  Using HT directly in your running speed looks
like a simple approach solution to figuring in the above dynamics.

Therefore, substitute ST for DX.  There is no mention of weight in the formula,
but I think that this would be getting too detailed.  (Assume ST is already
proportional to weight, perhaps?)

How is this in terms of modeling atheletes.  In the Olympics, this year, we
put forward a football player as a sprinter.  Sure, he was heavy, but hugely
strong.  He had the same type of acceleration and top speed of most of the
others.  Don't think he won, but he is proof that you can get Olympic times
out of sheer strength...

So, does (ST + HT)/4 do it?  I'm no expert on running, but it does make more
sense.  Also, it makes ST more worthwhile in the upper-tech games too, and
DX a little less, which may be a good idea.  

-james
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: bingcros@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Crosby)
Subject: Re: GURPS Total Rewrite
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 21:49:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.051422.2204@tronsbox.xei.com>
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) writes:
>	If someone claims that they want something "for the sake of character",
>then my answer is that they won't care how much it costs if it's THAT
>important to their character conception.

The most useless point sink that is usually "just for the sake of the
character" is Military Rank.  5 points per rank and the points go
quick.  Almost always useless, too.  Might be useful in a modern game
set in a country run by a military dictatorship, but it's never useful
in a game where you are separated from your military organization.
Kind of like paying for the advantage "Contact: NY police chief" when
the game is set in Egypt.

>	If you let people have stuff on the cheap because it LOOKS useless, you
>deserve to get your head handed to you when (not if) they find a use
>for it.

I've seen GMs reduce the cost of Military Rank to 3 points per level,
and it was still utterly useless.  I guess you can put that "if" back
in there.

>dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com   ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis     GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1

Rich
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: goodwin@orionsci.uucp (Ben Goodwin)
Subject: Paranoia (GM being Unfair)
Organization: Orion Scientific, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:53:48 GMT

Hum, this is a hard one to put down in words but I'll try.

Background:  Our group consists of 7 people, and relations between one
or two of them is not what I would call good. :)

The person who is going to GM Amber does not like Jeff.  As a matter
of fact he's tried to wage a campaign of having Jeff removed from
the group, unsucessfully I might add.

The problem, Amber gives the GM a lot of latitude to screw players,
more so than dice games IMHO.

My question is sort of vague, but how can you detect this, and keep this
abuse under control?

It seems to me that if Jeff calls the GM out alot because he feels like
he is being treated unfairly, then he's gonna look like a whiner?  And
its also possible that when things go wrong for Jeff its just bad luck
or some such.  Questioning the GM alot is a no no IMO.  But seeing as
we're playing Amber soon, I could see some problems arising.

Any comments?

PS: This is not hypothetical and I am not Jeff.  But this could present
a serious problem to our group.
-- 

-Ben
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: marvel vs. Champions
Date: 21 Aug 92 06:33:26 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <1992Aug20.173009.1544@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>	Well - yes and no. Iron Man's armor is clearly an "Only in Hero ID" 
>limitation, ...

Here I think there _is_ a hole.  If the armor is Only In Hero ID, it's
impossible for someone else to put on the armor and use it even once without
ugly kludges like Usable By Others with the limitation "Not used by others very
often, in fact no more often than people use someone else's focus".
--
I am of course experienced in teaching and have read the writings of Socrates.
    -- Ed Nilges

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Amber Super Heroes (No longer Re: Marvel)
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 07:29:39 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Gray Jones writes:
>If want to experiment with super human characters, I would recommend Amber. 
>The world and setting is very specific, but the game mechanics (especially the
>attribute auction) would make a very cool Supers game.

I would doubt that. The attribute auction is something that has long since
bothered me, and I don't know if the mechanics as they currently stand (4
stats, free skills, etc.) would be suited for superheroing.

There was some thread before about Amber == Everything, but the general
consensus that I recall was that it would work marginally, but not well. It
is a very genre-specific game, and many of the mechanics work only in its
setting (especially the auction and the diceless combat.) Well, then again,
that may be me mis-recalling the discussion, as that is the side I favored.

Of course I'm going to remember it clearer. =)

>IMHO, of course.

Of course, as is everything else in this big pool....er oops, I mean bboard.

=)

-- 
Stay away from flying saucers today.