From: dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Originator: dml@rabbit
Organization: Autonomous Systems, Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:57:39 GMT


In article <llro7kINNnal@news.bbn.com>, mbrennan@bbn.com (Maeve Brennan) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan20.173334.16767@philabs.philips.com> dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
|> >
|> >An the US is dealing with Native Rights issues today. The British government
|> >is not, as I have argued at length before.
|> >
|> >Damian.
|> >
|> >
|> 
|> Hi Damian - I knew you in Trinity.
|> 

Maeve, what a nice suprise! I just sent you some email.


|> While you have touched on the subject of Native Rights, you haven't 
|> really explained in detail how it could be applied to the nationalist 
|> community of NI.  In one posting you mentioned the Hopi tribe of Arizona, 
|> but didn't give any details.  For instance, one of the Hopi's biggest 
|> grievances is a land dispute with their Navajo neighbours.  How successful
|>....

The crucial point is that the US is dealing with this as a native rights
issue. I think the native rights issue in NI has become hidden
over the years. The problem is now usually defined as a civil rights
issue. I suspect that trying to solve it as purely a civil rights
issue is not likely to succeed.

|> has the US government been in mediating the dispute between these
|> two tribes?  As with the Unionist community in NI, the Navajo have
|> only been in the area of northern Arizona for about 500 years.
|> Can the British government benefit from the US experience
|> in bridging the gap between the nationalist and unionist communities
|> of NI?
|> 

One lesson is: don`t ignore the issue and let it fester. But on that score
its too late for both the US and NI.

I don't think the US has done a great job in addressing native rights,
but that wasn`t my point.


|> In one of your earlier postings you said that Native Rights was
|> quite distinct from civil rights.  Currently in NI, it is unlawful
|> to discriminate against someone on the basis of their religion.
|> Wouldn't this law need changing if Native Rights were introduced,
|> since Native Rights would be synonymous with Catholic rights?

Hmm, I don't advocate a global substitution of the string 'native rights' for
the string `civil rights' in all legislation. Treating the issue as a 
native rights problem changes the emphasis from Britain getting a democratic
solution from the embittered Unionist population -- which I suspect the
whole setup of NI prohibits -- to developing a unilateral initiative
that recasts the fractured political mechanisms of NI in such a fashion
that the moderates (instead of the radicals) on both sides have the 
power to hold the government together.

|> 
|> Another point you have made in other postings, is that some reparations 
|> should be made to the minority people of NI to make up for the fact 
|> that they were forced into a unionist dominated NI.  Well then, what
|> about the unionist/protestant people of the 26 county Ireland
|> which were forced into that independent state against their will?
|> Aren't there still Protestant people in the Republic with
|> Unionist sympathies?  Aren't there Orange day parades in some of 
|> the border counties of the Republic?  (Donegal, Monaghan?)
|> If a united Ireland was ever to come about, would there be
|> a need for Settler Rights?
|> 

Good point and one on which I don't want to be misunderstood. 
The total extent of the `reparation' I mentioned would be just
to justify a unilateral action by Britain. Such an action could
not easily be justified as a response to civil rights violations.
You see, I am suggesting a `gerrymandering' of sorts, to restabalize
NI. Such a non-democratic action is hard to justify unless you can argue
that the very concept of NI is inherently `unfair'. 

Were NI a peaceful, (reasonably) stable state, the whole issue would not come
up. This is how I see the situation south of the border. 


|> As I say, you haven't explained in detail how Native Rights
|> would be effective in NI.  You have only said that it is
|> being employed in the US, specifically mentioning the Hopi
|> tribe, but again giving no details.
|> 

I hope I have clarified that here.  I can go further and suggest 
that one way to go would be a two-equipotent house of government
system, set up to empower nationalist areas in one house and
unionist areas in the other. There is precident for this in the
US where states are represented independent of their actual size
and population (in the electoral vote perhaps? I don't recall.)

|> I don't believe the US provides an exemplary model in its treatment
|> of indigenous peoples.  The long walk and the battle of Wounded Knee
|> in South Dakota was only 100 years ago.  In this century, Indian
|>...........
|> While the US may be addressing Native Rights today, it has come far
|> far too late.

I agree wholeheartedly, as I have reported above.

|> 
|> Can you find a better example of where indigenous peoples have
|> fared well under colonial/foreign rule?  Can you find an example
|> where bitter civil conflict has resolved in a mutually satisfactory
|> way, which might be applicable to NI?
|> 

Hmmmm, no. Can you? I think the problem here may be the words
`mutually satisfactory'. If it means just that people aren't killing
each other, then yes I can think of examples. If it means that all
parties got their national aspirations.....

|> Matthew is right.  If Britain had followed the US example, then
|> most of the indigenous people of Ireland would have been wiped out,
|> leaving only a handful of powerless malcontents today, and a 
|> United Kingdom of Britain and the whole island of Ireland.

Good heavens. I didn't realize that Matthew had suggested the British
should have `ethnically cleansed' Ireland! 

The only connection I have drawn between the US and Britain is that
the US admits to a native rights problem (hard for it not to I'd say)
while Britain does not yeat (to my mind) realize thats what it has in NI.

Damian.
-- 
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         Damian M. Lyons | x6444 | dml@philabs.philips.com       
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