From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Subject: Repost of Explanation of N vs. S and J vs P Scales for MBTI
Summary: From Joe Butt and Frank Silberman
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:54:54 GMT

Hello,

During a particular thread on this newsgroup, Joe Butt and Frank Silberman
gave informative insights into the somewhat difficult to understand N vs. S
and J vs. P scales for the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.  I've reproduced
them below in the same order they appeared on this newsgroup.

Jon

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Subject: Re: Confused about N/S and J/P
From: jabutt@sacam.OREN.ORTN.EDU (Joe Butt)

Doug McBride (mcbride@owlnet.rice.edu) wrote:
: 
: Would someone mind posting a little information clarifying the N/S and
: J/P elements of the M-B type system?  The other two are fairly
: self-explanatory.  I find it interesting that in the recent poll of
: newsgroup readers, the only big split was between J and P.  My friend
: and I, who are rather similar, got split along the same element.
: 
: Doug McBride                                   mcbride@owlnet.rice.edu


The major distinction between Sensing and iNtuition is a question of where
we get our data.  Sensors get it from their five senses.  N's get it
through our intellect -- we analyze, theorize and philosophize data.  

Sensors themselves are difficult to talk about as a group.  Many SP's will
identify themselves as N's because of the down-to-earth description of the
Sensor.  S's deal first with facts.  The SJ's do this in an orderly
fashion --step one, followed by step two, then three ...
SP's sometimes think and/or talk in more of a spider-web approach.  One of
my ESFP friends (who has a hard time thinking of herself as an S) jumps
from thought to thought in mid-sentence, touching here or there in a
manner that's almost incoherent to me, but will eventually cover the
waterfront by skipping impulsively from one piece of information to
another.  It's quite fascinating.

NF's pull information into a relational framework in order to understand
where it fits.  They examine the emotions through sympathy and empathy,
working out the intricacies of the interpersonal consequences of
thoughts and actions.

We NT's often think of ourselves as very serious and down-to-earth.  The
description 'head-in-the-clouds' may fit us in the eyes of a practical,
no-nonsense SJ, but is at odds with the very serious nature of our
thoughts and principals.  

I often am at a loss as to how to process data until I get its *context*. 
Then there is a system or structure with which to compare and contrast
information.  My SJ wife sometimes accuses me of making unfounded
statements because I cannot remember the facts from which I have drawn my
conclusion.  As far as I am concerned, the fact can be forgotten if it
meets the logic of the patterns I see.  (It's the errant fact which defies
my logic that keeps me awake at night.)

Now about J and P...

J and P are so colored by the other three aspects that a separate
description is difficult at best.  In general, they are the difference
between a tendency to move quickly from information to a decision (J), and
wanting (or unwillingly tending) to get just a little more information be
fore deciding.  

For a sensing person, judging is about more tangible, real world issues. 
The organization that J's are known for is seen in the physical
surroundings of the SJ's and usually absent in the informal lives of the
SP's. 

NFJ's are organized in the arena of interpersonal affairs.  Their offices
may or may not be cluttered.  But their opinions about people and their
motives are drawn much more quickly than those of their NFP counterparts. 
NFP's are prone to take information about a person and examine it,
postulate about it, and be perfectly willing not to decide.  Because of
this, NFP's make excellent storytellers (e.g., James Herriot) in which the
similarities and differences of personalities are (usually eloquently)
described and rarely judged.

NTJ's demonstrate their J orientation by organizing and putting into
action logical information.  NTP's are more satisfied to know and
understand and less internally motivated to operationalize their
knowledge.  The Wright Brothers were an excellent example.  Wilbur (INTJ)
was the driving force of the pair.  After Wilbur's death, Orville (INTP)
let the business fall apart while working on his automatic pilot
invention.  My experience has been that INTP's and INTJ's work well
together.  The INTJ's take our systems and find uses for them.  Without
them our theories often get buried on library shelves or in our
unpublished manuscripts.

--JAB


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joe Butt, INTP                 |"Let's see...is it 'Feed an obsession,     |
|School Psychologist            |starve a compulsion'...?"                  |
|Tennessee School for the Deaf  |"I used to think my mind was a wonderful   |
|@Oak Ridge Educational Network |thing until I realized who was telling me."|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

=============================================================================

Subject: Re: Recognizing temperments
From: fs@cs.tulane.edu (Frank Silbermann)


Peter Smidt:
>>Why do these four groups always come up (NT, NF, SJ or SP) when one
>>talks about some limited class of personalities. Why don't
>>SF for example show up. Are the above four types of some great
>>significans to anything or doesn't you get something out of
>>other partial types (SF, NP and so on) in the MB-test?

Frank Fujita:
> Because ... the four above have theoretical basis in Jung's
> 'personality types'.


Both thoughts and feelings are abstractions,
and an S tends to minimize use of abstraction,
preferring to deal on as concrete a level as possible,
so it's not so important whether an S is T or F.

Intuitives use abstraction constantly, so it makes
a big difference whether their abstractions deal with thought
(e.g. scientific, mathematical and logical principles)
or feelings (trust, loyalty, sympathy, fairness).

J versus P has to do with one's tendency to stick with decisions.
Rules and laws represent decisions, so and SJ would tend
to observe society's laws and customs rather strictly,
whereas an SP is more apt to disregard them.
This difference makes a big impact on other people.

An iNtuitive tends not to notice the details of custom and etiquette,
and rather thinks up his own rules for behavior from first principles.
It seems to make less difference to other people whether an iNtuitive
keeps to his rules (J) or modifies them as he goes along (P),
since they are his own rules anyway.

fs@cs.tulane.edu

==========================================================================

Subject: Re: Confused about N/S and J/P
From: jabutt@sacam.OREN.ORTN.EDU (Joe Butt)


Bob, 

	You've caused me to pull out Jung -- I owe you!  

	In re-thinking my statements about sensing and intuition, I concur
that your statement of the theory is very close to Jung's.  And my
statement that intuitives gather information through their intellect is
technically incorrect.  According to Jung, intuition is the unconscious
process of perception, while sensing is the conscious process of
perception.  Agreed, Jung spends many pages describing the difference in
extroverted sensing and introverted sensing.

	In terms of how these processes appear when they arre the primary
or secondary process, I think my description holds.  Your description of
introverted sensing parallels introverted *thinking* from an inner
perspective, in my own experience.  

	A recent example of thinking versus intuition in introverts
involved a brain teaser, to wit:

"Name two English words which are pronounced the same way but have no
letters in common."

	My primary process (thinking) started comparing words which have
homonyms.  But it was intuition that jumped to the correct answer in just
a few seconds.  It suddenly and inexplicably appeared from the unconscious.
An ISTP who was present wanted to know if I'd heard it before and could
not comprehend the process (intuition) that produced the answer.  

	In my experience (and according to theory), INTJ's and ENTP's, whose
primary process is intuition, start the process in reverse.  Their
intuition is augmented by *thinking*, which is defined as bringing "the
contents of ideation into conceptual connection with one another."

	Back to my description of sensing vs. intuition, it is this
propensity to incorporate unconscious perception that makes us intuitives
appear "head in the clouds" or "out of touch with reality" to sensors,
who, whether extroverted or introverted, are more in touch with
information gained through the senses and more directly in contact with
the real world.  The IST's have much moe patience with the bits and bytes
of information (ISTJ's faithfully accomplishing repetitive tasks and
examining their accuracy, ISTP's going over and over their golf swing or
jump shot or hammer swing and getting sensory feedback about their
performance) than INT's, who come briefly into the real world to test out
their theories (if they bother to do so), and fall back into the comfort
of analysis and hypothesis.  



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joe Butt, INTP                 |"Let's see...is it 'Feed an obsession,     |
|School Psychologist            |starve a compulsion'...?"                  |
|Tennessee School for the Deaf  |"I used to think my mind was a wonderful   |
|@Oak Ridge Educational Network |thing until I realized who was telling me."|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

=============================================================================

-- 

Charter Member of the INFJ Club.

Now, if you're just dying to know what INFJ stands for, be brave, e-mail me,
and I'll send you some information.  It WILL be worth the inquiry, I think.

=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.com        | I VOTED FOR PEROT IN '92 |
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