From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Hamas
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:31:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.224957.23342@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>Eric S. Perlman writes:
>>Mazen Mokhtar writes:
>>>>  a) "Israel will exist until it is eliminated by Islam."
>>>  I don't see the problem so far.
>>I see a big problem.  Jews have a homeland too.  We're a nation.  Israel
>>is our homeland. 
>
>  You are welcome to live in Palestine in peace, without killing and without
>stealing the land and property of others.

Just not have a state there?  Come on.  We didn't start the war in
1948 - for us it was a war of survival.  In no way was it a war of
agression, and there was certainly no intent to steal land and property.

>>>>  b) The introduction also contains a call for *jihad* (holy war) to
>>>>"liberate Palestine"
>>>  Which is something long overdue. After all, Israel was established by 
>>>people who only understand the language of violence. 
>>In a word, pure, unadulterated hogwash.  Israel has had to fight for its
>>life since before it was established.
>
>  So, does Hitler have the right to fight for his life? Does Germany have
>the right to fight to remain Nazi? Even before Nazi Germany became
>established? How about South Africa?

Israel is neither Nazi Germany nor is it South Africa.  The comparisons
are inapplicable and just plain wrong.  

>>>>  g) Palestine is an Islamic land. 
>>>  A statement of fact.
>>No, it's not.  Israel contains the sites most holy to Judaism.  How
>>would you, as a Muslim, like it if you didn't have Mecca?  That's the
>>way it was for Jews for two *thousand* years.  And it should be
>>mentioned that it *is* the Jewish homeland, historically.  To say the
>>above, you must be willing to utterly ignore history. 
>
>  This is childlish. Jerusalem also contains the Aqsa Masjid. It also
>contains the birthplace of Jesus (Peace be Upon him.)

Of course it does.  No one denies that either.  But Christians and
Muslims control their holiest sites, and their people have homelands -
is it not only fair that Jews also have control over their holiest city,
Jerusalem, and have our traditional homeland?

>  No one is denying that there are sites which Jews consider holy in Plalestine,
>it is only when these sites become an excuse to kill and plunder that we
>object. You want to be allowed to visit the sites? You are welcome. You want
>to gain citizenship? Apply like everyone else.

In other words, to you we don't have a right of return to our homeland.  

The sites are not and never have been an excuse to kill and plunder.  That
is not what Israel is about.  Nor is it what Zionism is about.  Zionism
is about a people - a *NATION* - returning to their homeland.  No
fighting would have been necessary if the partition resolution of 1947
had been accepted - and it was a fair partition.  

>  It is because of the insistence of some zionists that Israel is their
>property that I personally don't expect a peaceful resolution to the problem
>of Israel. I wish I would make a happier prediction. Another sad prediction
>is that I expect Israel to be victorious if it engages in a military conflict
>with its neighbours if the current governments are still in place.

If you think that is what I was saying, then you're completely
misinterpreting me.  But it's not just that there are "sites which Jews
consider holy in Palestinians," it's that it is our homeland.  I don't
oppose peace at all.  I understand how people feel about their homes,
can you understand, perhaps, how a people unable to return to ours for
2000 years feels?  That's not meant to be an excuse for brutality, just
the facts of history.  History has treated Jews harder than any other
people.  We know what it is to face extinction because we've been there
- and just escaped.  

Besides, you use language above about "some zionists" insisting that
Israel is their property...and you don't see that you're using exactly
that language, in reverse!  That's what I call hypocrisy. 

I have no problem living in peace with the Palestinians.  But I do have
a problem with not having a homeland.

>Mazen Mokhtar


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast