From: mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin)
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Summary: to arrest.  Subject: to intense scrutiny.  Subject: to change...
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:47:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.112356.15216@agora.uucp>, trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
> 
> 
> Since we can *prove* that the pentacle is really a *Christian* symbol in period,
> wouldn't it be more useful to explain to pagan submitters that it doesn't
> represent what they want anyway? It seems to me that a pagan using a pentacle
> is in violation of the Rules of Submission in regards to use of *modern*
> symbolism if it isn't  pagan within period. 
	
	Milord doth have a valid point, even though it is a sneaky way of getting
around the salt of this matter.  Okay, so a pentagram was a period Gnostic
or Judaic symbol.  The modern connotation -and likely the intended
inferrence of the charge- is one of non-Judeo-Xtianity.  C'mon milord,
I've seen the TEXACO logo pass, and we all know that had only modern
connotations as a driving force.
> 
> If I were pagan, I would be quite distressed to find out I was carrying a 
> Judeo-Christian mystic symbol around... And surely there are other symbols that
	Hey, no problem here.  I'm sure that upon that EARTH-SHATTERING
revelation :) the Pagans in the sca are *not* going to run to the jewelry
box and trash all their pentagrams.   It is a matter of personal
inferrence, not one of public meaning.
	
	I have a friend, Iskander Incarnidine, who is a devout Xtian.  He's a
major Born-again with a vast knowledge of the whole Jesus trip.  He's SCA,
and he wears 8-that's eight silver dragon rings on his fingers (hence his
nickname "Dragonfists".
	
	To modern Xtianity, the dragon has a really nasty connotation.  The
Devil, and all that noise.  But to Iskander, it means something different.
 Dragons to him are symbols of the fire of Jesus that burns within him and
all that jazz.  And more power to him.  (And coincidentally, he's a polite
Xtian - he doesn't run around trying to fill some convert quota  :>)
	
	I'm getting at the point that, no matter what your philosophy, your
symbol set is what you make of it.  So, to the Neo-Pagans, a pentacle
represents them, to a Neo-Nazi a swastika is their rallying banner, and to
the common Xtian, a torture device becomes a symbol of love and eternal
life (never was able to figure that one out).  So, the argument of
connotation should never even make an appearance.
	
> pagans can use beside Thor's hammer. There are any number of pagan legends that
> the early Christians "hijacked" that convey important religious ideas that
> were bowdlerized for Christian ends. I would think they could be "rehabilitated"
> for use by non-Christians. 
	
	Sure, but I don't know how tough your shield would look with an Easter
Bunny as a charge  :) :) :) :)
	Or should we try a Xmas tree?
	
	Seriously, there is a Pagan symbol that flies rampant (heralds please
excuse the pun) within the SCA -The Moon.  In my unscientific observation,
the Moon seems one of the most widely used inanimate charges.  Even in
group names, the Moon is all over the place  (My household is Moonblade,
there's another one called Moonshadow, a persona named Moonfeather etc,
etc, etc...)
		
			J U S T   F O R   T H E    F U N 
			O F   D O I N G   T H I S . . . .
	
	Let's take an informal survey:  I want to know about EVERY single person,
place, thing, or event within the SCA that has a moon in it somehow.
Heck, I myself wear a Moon & Star pendant instead of a Pentagram (no one
is safe from the moon).  Plus, it's probably the most period of modern
Pagan symbols.  
	
> 
> Maybe we just need to be more creative?
> 
	Okay, how about a Cornucopia, the Horn of plenty?  Or maybe the double
flute of Pan?  Or perhaps  just a silhouette of a human body?  Or an
acorn.  or grapes or berries.  Or the Sun.  These are, after all, Pagan
symbols.  
	But the Sun, the grapes&berries, the cornucopia, those are also Gnostic
and the berries, Moon, and Sun are Moorish, etc...  Again, a symbol is,
ultimately, what you infer it to symbolize.
	
	Just thinking aloud.
	A su servicio,
	Marcos Maria Montenegro del Diablo,
	Swarthy Spanish Type,
	Who's trying to pass a dragon AND a moon by the College of Heralds :)
	Barony of Stargate, in joyous Ansteorra.
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