HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Organization: Fulcrum Communications
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:57:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.041319.16490@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> Are you going to blame a 5 year old kid for crossing the street and
> getting hit when the crossing was done on a red light?

Bad analogy.  Or do you regard Usenet users as children?

A better example:

Are you going to blame a 35 year old adult for crossing the street and
getting hit when the crossing was done on a red light?

To use a delightful Americanism, damn straight I am.

ian
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr)
Subject: Re: *
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 12:22:22 GMT

In article <1e6p5nINNf7p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
>
>Please DO NOT follow up this post.  I will delete it soon.
>
>To everyone who has been flaming Dave Hayes, Bruce Norman,
> or anybody else, STOP!  This is getting nowhere + wasting
> our time wading through all this bullshit.  

It wouldn't hurt if _Dave Hayes_ were to stop flaming everyone and seeing
conspiracies everywhere he looks, pal.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: RF(Informal)D: Standard RFD/CFV Format
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:10:35 GMT

In article <2B0718C8.7443@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >According to twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce):
> >> Perhaps, instead of two new lines, RFDs and CFVs could include three:
> >> "Groups proposed," "Groups renamed or deleted," and "Other groups
> >> affected." 
> >
> >Wow! We're making real progress here. This is great!
> 
> *sigh* This format was state-of-the-art two years ago; too bad that
> few learned from my RFD/CFV format used for comp.unix.*, to wit:
> 
> [ A posting of a RFD that Chip created in 1990 ]
> 
> Not bad, eh?

Not bad. To my eyes it did make things clearer. If it was state-of-the-art  
previously, why isn't it now? Do such things as RFD/CFV format belong in  
the guidelines?

It strikes me that the guidelines don't deal all that well with many  
issues related to reorgs. Should a separate set of guidelines be written  
for reorgs (which after all are a LOT more complicated than adding a  
single new group), or should the existing guidelines be enhanced to cover  
this territory better?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:35:53 GMT

In article <Bxv4LD.1z6@apollo.hp.com> @apollo.HP.COM (Jennifer E. Levine) writes:
>There are people who like Fantasy and not Science fiction. They may
>not realize they are welcome in rec.arts.sf.*

Quite so, but they are welcome, and there is a fair amount of
discussion of fantasy in these groups.  Welcome!

>I see the difficulty in defining the difference. I have my own definition.
>But I don't think that is the point.

Agreed.
-- 
Ian Sutherland
ian@eecs.nwu.edu

Sans Peur
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: martink@xenox.w.open.de (Martin Koall)
Subject: new group sci.med.dentistry?
Organization: SubNet - The Next Generation
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 20:52:25 GMT


Hallo everybody,

I'm a german dentist. Until now I didn't find any newsgroup for dentists.
Therefore I suppose that no dentistry newsgroup exist. If I'm wrong please
tell me. If not, I'd like to know what you'd think about creating such a
group! A dentistry newsgroup could be good for other dentists all over the
world to share and discuss their problems. It could also be a place for
people who are not dentists. They can get answers to their medical
questions. A dentistry newsgroup might be created in the following form:

	sci.med.dentistry		for international users
	de.sci.med.dentistry		for national (german) users

Please write me your answer in any case, if you like the idea or not.
If you speak german you can also answer in that language.

- Thankyou

	Martin Koall

P.S.:   Please write a copy of your answer to:

	martink@xenox.w.open.de
From: barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 15 Nov 1992 22:34:06 +0200
Organization: Dept. Elec. Eng., Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: daisy.ee.und.ac.za

In article <1992Nov14.021619.2169@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>,
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> >You have said that the readers want to keep the old name.  This
> >contradicts your point that they don't care about news admin.
> Actually, the point was that they don't care about what the admins
> want to name it. 

Whatever.  My point still stands:  Your claim that they care about keeping
the old name contradicts your claim that they don't care about the name.

> >You have said that many readers have left the group as a direct result
> >of the name change, but I cannot understand why this should be.  Could
> >you try to explain their reasons in more detail?
> I am not them. No I cannot. 

Hmm.  I thought that your were claiming to be working on their behalf.  If
so, how can you do so without knowledge of their arguments?  Furthermore,
if you do not have knowledge of their reasons for leaving the group, how
can you know that their leaving was "a direct result of the name change"?

> >You say that the vote should be invalidated.  I say NO.  It was run
> >according to the letter and the spirit of the guidelines, and it passed.
> Here we disagree. Letter, yes. Spirit, no.

Perhaps you could explain exactly what part of the spirit of the
guidelines has allegedly been broken, and in what way it has been broken?
Is it the part about giving notice to the affected groups?

I see that you chose to ignore some of the points that I thought were
important:

>> You have been saying that folk in rec.music.synth are harmed [...]
>> It seems to me that you have not provided a good explanation of
>> exactly *how* they would be harmed.

>> You say that the vote did not reflect the wishes of the affected people.
>> I claim that the entire net is affected by every vote, because every vote
>> affects the namespace that we all share.  The entire net was invited to
>> vote, and the vote reflects the wishes of the entire net.

--apb
Alan Barrett, Dept. of Electronic Eng., Univ. of Natal, Durban, South Africa
RFC822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za                    Bang: m2xenix!undeed!barrett
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD rec.games.netrpg
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:05:55 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GE Power Generation

In article <5968@balrog.ctron.com>, smith@ctron.com (Lawrence C Smith)
wrote:

> First of all, _I'm_ not seeing 40+ posts a day total, never mind just the
> net.rpg.  Second of all, rec.games.design is _for_ people to talk about
> game design, which is what they are doing.  If you have a problem with
> that, then propose breaking the group up in some generic fashion, don't
> just try kicking out the stuff you don't like.

For the last two days, at least, total new postings/day has been over
50. All signs seem to indicate that this will only increase as more
and more people get interested in the project.

Second, I agree with you - I think it *should* stay in r.g.d.
However, people who are not interested in the game's 
development disagree.

Spike

"I would shelter you, and keep you in light
 but I can only teach you
 night vision" - Suzanne Vega
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:35:40 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>You seemed pretty upset that Dave had made an assertion about your
>character.

Gordon, you obviously don't know what Dave wrote, so why did you
involve yourself?  Dave merely posted the comment of someone else,
and that someone was the object of my ire.

>>According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>>>You have many times in this debate *assumed* what the actions of
>>>people who were unaware of the vote were. I think that leaves you
>>>open to assesments of your character as well.
>
>I replied what you quoted which I think stands.

It does not stand.  But thanks for playing.  Care for a home game?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:30:07 GMT

jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes:
>	But [the users] are being oppressed by the people who let them loose on
>the network without any help. And they're also being oppressed by people
>like you, who knew enough about the workings of the net to understand
>that a rename vote was going on, but assumed you didn't have to point it
>out to anyuone in rec.music.synth because you thought they would already
>know. 

Some of us make mistakes. I've already admitted this one. I think my second
big one may have been trying to reason with news.groups. :-)

>In otherwords, you're quilty of the same arrogance and elitism you
>accuse the "news.groups cabal" of. 

Actually I was ignorant of the level of ignorance. The rest of what 
you described is rebellion...not elitism.

>>But those aren't a good sample. Those people are used to ferreting out 
>>data from obscure documentation. How many people have read them and had
>>them NOT work for them? You don't know that one...do you?
>	No, and neither do you. What's your point?  Anyone who had read
>them would at least know where to go to ask for help. Besides, the above
>description fits anyone who's used a computer.

Anyone who's used a computer is not necessarily anyone who's GOOD at using
a computer.

>	Did you take a special course in setting up straw men? 

Yeah...I've been reading news.groups for quite some time now. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

                 One only fights what one thinks is real.
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:51:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ec7ifINNn14
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov13.081117.960@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <2B0267E5.73EC@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> Oh, man, now you are going to carp on the titles of the periodic
>> postings?!  Can't you stop retreating and retrenching long enough to
>> realize that you've lost this battle?
>
>You act as if titles are inconsequential. They aren't. People don't have  
>an unlimited amount of time to read things. They decide often what to read  
>based on titles. Titles like "How To Create A New Usenet Newsgroup" hardly  
>indicate that to know how to vote you must read it.

Well, maybe that's because you don't need to read it to know how to
vote? The instructions on how to vote are posted in every CFV.

Anyone who saw the title of the document you mention should be able to
figure out that there is a process for newsgroup creation, which pretty
well shoots down the idea that people who read n.a.n wouldn't know that
there was a process.
Xref: sparky news.groups:22521 soc.culture.british:16177
From: colin@cs.uq.oz.au (Colin Millerchip)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:41:17 GMT
Reply-To: colin@cs.uq.oz.au
Followup-To: news.groups

In <1861@scax18.pki-nbg.philips.de> dok_amo@pkinbg.UUCP (Andrew Moores,OVD,) writes:
>I, too, an Englishman abroad in Europe, would welcome the opportunity to keep
>up-to-date with English (and even British) affairs, especially politics -
>how much longer will Lamont last - and football, if anyone ever sends the
>results to any of the mailboxes.

>Hope my voice adds another aye to the list.

Precisely the point of my posting now -- open up to the world, we can't
wait.

I've missed most of this discussion: what timeframe is realistic here?

C.

--
|Colin Millerchip           | "And all this science I don't understand,|
|University of Queensland,  |  It's just my job five days a week"      |
|Brisbane, Australia.       |   - "Rocketman", Elton John              |
|colin@cs.uq.oz.au          |                                          |
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:42:36 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <622@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
> Read very carefully.  He does this before asking questions, not 
> before voting.
> 
Let's see:

1. Lurk around for a month so as to not ask stupid questions.
2. Ask questions
3. Understand enough to see a vote coming your way...

> "Hey! They want to screw us over, let's not let 'em!" isn't enough,
> maybe they don't want to screw you over, maybe they just want to
> make the hierarchy a little easier to understand....  Once you know
> this, if you *still* think your being screwed over, vote no.

This all assumes that you know enough to see the issue being raised in the  
first place. Haven't we been down this road before?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:02:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ehrgnINNfni
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov18.210434.831@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <1ec7ifINNn14@talon.UCS.ORST.EDU> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
>Stanley) writes:
>> >based on titles. Titles like "How To Create A New Usenet Newsgroup" hardly  
>> >indicate that to know how to vote you must read it.
  
>> Well, maybe that's because you don't need to read it to know how to
>> vote? The instructions on how to vote are posted in every CFV.
  
>This is a circular argument. What was being discussed is how to obtain enough  
>knowledge to recognize an RFD or CFV and understand its importance. 

No, it is a direct contradiction of your implication that "How to
Create..." contains information on how to vote and that you must read
it before knowing that. "How to Create..." does NOT contain that
information, and saying that its title is bad because it does not
indicate contents that it does not contain is stupidity.

>> Anyone who saw the title of the document you mention should be able to
>> figure out that there is a process for newsgroup creation, which pretty
 
>The specific problems related to your assertion have been dealt with in other  
>posts. 

I have seen nobody deal with the fact that those who read n.a.n would
certainly know there was a process. The only "dealing" is those who
think that n.a.n isn't good enough.

>I'm not going to recapitulate them. If you don't support the overall  
>position that there are things that can be done to make documentation and  
>education better, fine. 

Fine. I think the documentation was perfectly adequate prior to the
r.m.s vote. Whether they should be changed is another matter, irrelevant
to whether the r.m.m.s name should be kept or not. 

>If you have a new point to discuss, by all means bring it up.

Please mention that to Dave Hayes.

>There are more constructive things that we can both be doing with our time.

Like shooting down a valid vote because one doesn't like the result?
From: B.Kumar@cs.ucl.ac.uk
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:19:08 GMT

> In article <1e9pb6INNm9v@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.ed
u (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>I am not from "these countries."  I have never lived in an Islamic
>country in my life.  But one thing I *was* taught is that one should
>know what one is arguing about before one attempts it.  Were you ever
>taught that Raj?  Or is common sense something that you just never
>considered important?

It only shows that Bangladesh still has some rabid jammati fundamentalists 
carrying the flags of their Arab/Paki masters. As previously said, pet Dogs 
are more faithful to the house than the masters themselves. No wonder pakistan
comfortably screwed Bangladesh 10 years ago, killing over 3 millions Bengalis,
with the help of Jamatees like your-self. Average Bangladeshi would be
very much relieved to know that your highness decided to live in non-islamic 
state of America and did not come to live in (islamic republic of) Bangladesh.
At least, you had some mercy on Islam.

bkumar
Xref: sparky news.groups:21902 soc.culture.indian:37110 soc.culture.pakistan:16712 soc.culture.bangladesh:5930
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Is Dave Hayes wasting your tax dollars?
Keywords: waste in government
Date: 24 Nov 92 02:19:16 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes:
>Exactly what was nasty about my post, suggesting that Dave had
>too much free time at work?  We should all be so lucky.
>And for the record, it is Dave Hayes who refuses to defend his
>position, not me.

When I see an article of the likes of the tone of the article you presented
to me, I choose what and where I respond to. Go figure.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

To test that which has been tested is ignorance.
      To try to test something without the means of testing is even worse
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: A new posting for voters
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:48:26 GMT

huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins) writes:
>Anyone interested in working on a "How to Participate in Newsgroup
>Creations and Renamings" document?  I don't know that I've got
>the time to manage the effort, but I'd be willing to help.

I am, but the guidelines revs should come first...otherwise the
document will just have to be rewritten.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   Enjoyment is not a goal,
      it is a feeling that accompanies important ongoing activity
From: adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Date: 22 Nov 92 16:01:24 GMT
Reply-To: adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu
Organization: Michigan State University

In article 9516@reed.edu, horde@reed.edu (Mr. Heiji Horde) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.184332.21387@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> adc@tardis.msu.edu:
>>> I for one wouldn't mind an UNmoderated rec.games.netrek.programmer.  Just
>>> one, no moderation.
>>The reason I would like to see it moderated is so that it the group would
>>stick to the topics at hand.  A moderator also goes a long way in culling
>>FAQs that are frequently posted by new readers.
>
>But I thought you were going to put the FAQs in the .announce group. Sorry,
>  but if there is going to be a .programmer group, it had better damn well
>  be unmoderated.
>Alan, we are so sorry that there are people out there who are human and
>  don't always stay on topic. My opinion...DEAL WITH IT! If you don't want
>  to deal with people going off the topic, why didn't you make the ENTIRE
>  rec.arts.netrek* heirarchy moderated???

Gee Heiji, after reading such a strong argument against moderating
.programmer, what with all those great big capital letters and triple
punctuation marks, I'm begining to wonder why have anything moderated?
Goodie, I finally have an excuse to post hundreds of RFDs with
proposals to unmoderate groups.

>>Ummm, fascist-sounding?
>
>Yes, "fascist-sounding". Might have been less so if you hadn't listed
>  yourself as moderator for those two groups. *yawn* But we've beaten
>  that to death...

I listed myself as one of the moderators, asking for others.  If I
wasn't allowed to talk about it on r.g.n, how was I supposed to solicit
moderators?


---
Alan Cabrera				internet:  adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu
Computer Laboratory			phone:     (517) 353-3027
Michigan State University		fax:       (517) 353-9847
514 Computer Center			bitnet:    CABRERA@MSU
East Lansing, MI 48824
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Newsgroups Affected by Votes (Was: Standard RFD/CFV Format)
Date: 17 Nov 1992 16:22:19 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu
Keywords: RFD CFV formats guidelines votes

In article <1992Nov17.185740.17066@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>I probably wasn't clear.  I meant *directly* affected.
>For example, if rec.music.synth is renamed to rec.music.makers.synth,
>then rec.music.synth is directly affected, and (if my
>proposal is adopted) its name must appear in the subject line.

Ah, but cannot we *also* argue over which groups are "directly"
affected?  Take the recent misc.forsale.computers split.  I would
argue that this "directly" affect misc.forale (non-computer), because,
after the split, if you want to sell computer stuff, you need to know
the "proper" group.  But if no messages are ever posted to misc.forsale,
and you don't read news.announce.newgroups (which many people don't),
then how will you know?

Now imagine 100 people saying the same thing about "their" group after
every vote.  Can you say "utter chaos"?

>People can argue until the cows come home about indirect effects.
>Perhaps the rename indirectly affects rec.music.compose, because
>people might stop posting about composing there because it's
>not a "music making" group.  

They can, and they will.  The "affected" criterion will spawn a new
and even more pointless breed of flamewars.

>I meant the more obvious effect --- e.g., if the vote passes,
>such-and-such a news group isn't going to be there any more.

But saying a group "isn't going to be there anymore" is meaningless.
It's still there!  Take misc.forsale.computers again--it was split
into (vaguely) platform based groups.  There is also m.f.c.other which
is supposed to fulfill the old role of m.f.c, but everyone keeps
posting to m.f.c anyway.  The same thing happened (is happening?) with
rec.games.frp, which doesn't really "exist" anymore after the split.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.usenet.culture