HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:52:21 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <BxxJEz.3u9@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
> 
>  The arguments of Prof. Borza are simply laughable.  The only way that this
>  person can receive some credit is by trying to prove that the ancient
>  Macedonians were not Greek.  There is little novelty in proving that
>  they were Greek. 
>  This is how prof. Borza makes his living.  He has not made a single 
>  contribution to anything related to ancient Macedonians. 

Basically the above seems to saying the following: I hold the following
statement 'The Ancient Macedonians were Greek' as an item of faith.  I
will not engage in any argument about this, any 'contribution' to the
subject must be one which confirms my prior prejudices.  If someone
presents the opposite point of view I shall ignore it, especially if he
argues from a complex position.  Sad really as I would of thought that
one of the greatest contributions Greek philosophy made to the world was
to show us the need to question our prejudices and bigotries and that
the world is often not as simple as it seems.  Socrates would be very
disappointed in some modern Greeks.... 

Andy
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Date: 22 Nov 92 21:43:33 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


In article <92Nov20.182832est.42053@ois.db.toronto.edu>, vassos@db.toronto.edu (
Vassos Hadzilacos) writes:

>and "conscientiously [sic] trying to create false impressions") on the

I am not interested in any discussion with you. I will only point out, since
you apparently question my use of the word "conscientiously" by typing "[sic]"
(probably indicating incredulousness or irony on your part), that yes, this is
an absolutely correct word of the English language exactly as spelled. And its
meaning is perfectly applicable in the context used. And you've really got a
lot to learn before you can even think of teaching me English.

>
>--Vassos Hadzilacos
>

Dimitris Kouvatsos
-- 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10741 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9602 soc.culture.europe:9683
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 20 Nov 92 12:33:33 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BxvLH7.AIt@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
[..]
>> 2) Isocrates could well mean that collectively Greeks would not
>> tolerate a king easily, since full (local) independence and
>> many times Democracy was the norm.

>This just isn't true.  Not only are there more oligarchies in the Greek
>world at this time than democracies for a start.  According to Isocrates
>Philip wished to be a king and left the land of the Hellenes to do so
>and became king of the Macedonians.  Reading the text without bias the
>meaning is clear.  As far as Isocrates is concerned the Macedonians
                    ************************************************
>aren't Greek.  Remember this is a speech written by one of Philip's
 ***********
>supporters and it is surely imporatant that even such a man feels he
                        ********************************************
>can't present Philip as a Greek despite knowing of the Argead dynasties
                **********************************************************
>pretensions.


Now Andy, once you claim the above and after shown what
missunderstandings(?) you have made, you still insist? Have you
finally been taught that Isocrates beleived that Philip was
Greek (since he say so about Philip's father)?

Tsk, tsk. And then? What is the difference between Sicilian
Greeks and Hellenes according to Isocrates? What of Greeks of
Ionia? Cypriots? Even today in Greece, there are people called
"Russian", "Cypriots", "Chechs", etc. Among us (Isocrates was
a Greek writing to another Greek), these mean a Greek from
Russia, Cyprus, Chechoslovakia, etc.

Wishful thinking is not enough. You have to understand the
context of things - especially when a continuity exists.
If anyone wishes to put arguments about the present situation,
I may not agree with him/her, but I welcome them if well
motivated. Cheap propaganda which tries to find "evidence"
against Greeks' identity (be it ancient,medieval or modern) to
support a case, is simply unacceptable.

[..]

>Andy

With all due respect

Panayotis
--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
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Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
From: Lynn Gazis-Sax <lgsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:17 PST
Subject: re: travel in Greece
Nf-ID: #R:9211161528.AA23382@kocrsw06.delc:1617280717:cdp:1473100069:000:1098
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!lgsax    Nov 16 19:17:00 1992


Actually, the bus ride was rather fun.  The bus ran
consistently a little behind schedule, but nearly as
much as the train, and the fellow passengers were
friendly, and there were plenty of stops for refreshment
and so on so I didn't feel cooped up.

The subway system in Athens (not affected by the strike)
was just fine, and I wouldn't be surprised if the city
bus system is better than where I live when it isn't
on strike.  Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it's
better even when it is on strike (as you can see, I'm
not too happy with some of the scheduling of the buses
here in Palo Alto - things like having a bus arrive at
the Palo Alto train station the very minute the train
arrives on the opposite track, and leave before anyone
but an Olympic athlete could get down the stairs, under
the bridge, and up the stairs on the other side - but
since this is soc.culture.greek and not soc.culture.usa
I won't go on).

Getting back to Greece, I noticed a lot of cats in the
towns around Volos.  Is this general in Greece?  Or
was this just the particular places where I was?

Lynn Gazis-Sax

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10697 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9580 soc.culture.europe:9649
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 19 Nov 92 16:25:37 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1992Nov18.185105.7075@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, by gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis):
 
>   5. The clear cultural scheme is the following:
> 
> 
> Proto-Greek
> |
> |
> --------------
> |            |
> Greek        Macedonian
> |            |
> --------------
> |
> |
> Hellenistic


Let's see what Borza says here 'Despite the efforts of Philip II and
Alexander the Great to bridge the gap between the two cultures, Greeks
and Macedonians remained steadfastly antipathetic to one another (with a
dislike of a different quality then the mutual long-term hostility
shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenistic
period, when both the culmination of Hellenic acculturation in the North
and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took
precedence over their historical enmities.'

Little reason for the converging arrow unless we think of other parts of
the Hellenistic world as in some sense Greek. This is only ture if we
accept that a culture which has *some* Greek elements and some native
elements is Greek. Was Mithridates a Greek? He was after all the only
semi-successful leader of resistance to Rome in the East so no doubt
some Greek fascist will claim him as such. But most of us would prefer
to see him as a semi-hellenised barbarian - like the Macedonians.
> |
> |
> ---------------
> |             |
> Late-Greeks   Proto-Buzantines
> |             |
		The mind boggles as to what a proto-byzantine is.
> ---------------
> |
> |
> Byzantines

		Don't the Romans, not to mention certain famous
Illyrians need to come in here?
> |
> |
> Modern Greeks
> 
> 
> Who has the right to claim the ancient Macedonian heritage,
> the modern Greeks or the Slavs of the 6th century AD?

Neither as a line of direct descent, both as they both live in a land
where these things took place
> 
> Gr
> 
> PS: I stop the arguments with airheads.

I think this means 'I've run out of arguments'

Andy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10579 soc.culture.bulgaria:1659
From: pateraki@dewey.udel.edu (Michael Paterakis)
Subject: 0eseis EDTP sto tmhma Hlektron.& Mhx. Ypologistwn tou Polut. Krhths
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:04:33 GMT

To tmhma Hlektronikwn & Mhx. Ypologistwn tou Polutexneiou Krhths 
sta Xania exei prokurhksei 0eseis Eidikou Dioikhtikou kai Texnikou 
Prosopikou (EDTP). Oi 0eseis einai gia upeu0unous ergasthriwn tou
tmhmatos. Ta aparaithta prosonta einai: apofoitos sxolhs Hlektrologwn 
& Mhxanikwn Ypologistwn, h Ypologistwn (dhladh, Metsobeio, Patra, h 
Hrakleio). H pro0esmia upobolhs aithsewn lhgei stis 30 Noembriou. 
Xreiazetai na upoblh0oun: aithsh, viografiko, kai titloi spoudwn. 
Gia perissoteres plhrofories oi endiaferomenoi mboroun na epikoinwnhsoun
me ton ka0. Stavro Christodoulakh (stavros@ced.tuc.gr, h sta thlefwna 
+30-821-64846 h +30-821-64803).
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10815 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9667 soc.culture.europe:9743
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: The Skopjean flag
Date: 22 Nov 92 16:45:12 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <By15sr.Hyz@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):
>>of the motivations of a professional ancient historian....
> 
>  The person wants some credit.  His scientific value is in the neighborhood
>  of zero.

I think this means I disagree violently with this individual but can't
find any evidence for this position.
> 
> 
>  You have been continuously ignoring solid historical evidence, and thus
>  keep prostituting your profession, and ridiculing yourself and the
>  title you have earned.

Now what solid evidence would that be? I'm afraid as far as I'm
concerned slogans devised by the Greek government don't come into that
category, but I am always ready to consider fact. 

Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:51:05 GMT

In article <Bxwo7w.1oC@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>Of course what you fail to mention is that this quotation comes in the
>context of denying the Macedonians are Greek thesis, saying that the
>best that we can do on this line is to say perhaps the Macedonians were
>proto-Greeks and spoke a Greek language. Being a proto-Greek isn't being
>a Greek any way of course, we were all proto-Europeans or indeed
>proto-humans at one time (perhaps that thought might cast some light on
>present-day Greek selfishness). Try page 95 (my ed) which seems a fair
>summation 'It would appear that there is much in Macedonian society that
>is assimilated from Greece; but there is also a great deal that seems to
>be indigenous and non-Hellenic'. That's to say that the Macedonians were
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>semi-hellenised - I agree, but that's very different from saying they
>were Greeks, especially in the simplistic way that is all too frequently
>presented here, where they seem to be thought of as Athenians who just
>spoke a different accent.

 1. I mentioned that he doesn't consider that the ancient Macedonians
    were Classical Greeks

 2. I mentioned that he defines this separation between 7th and 4th (about)
    century, because they developed separately.

 3. The term proto-Greek is not like proto-European because there is no
    other group of people who came out of the proto-greeks except of
    macedonian and greek, certainly NO SLAVS. The proto-europeans gave
    birth to a multitude of cultures which were never again converged
    like macedonian and greek culture reemerged in the Hellenistic culture.

 4. Borza is a respected historian who sees the terms "macedonia" and
    "classical greece" under the need to devise distinct description
    of two cultures around the 7th and 3rd century. Even then, the
    interconnections were very strong (what is called "Hellenization").

  5. The clear cultural scheme is the following:


Proto-Greek
|
|
--------------
|            |
Greek        Macedonian
|            |
--------------
|
|
Hellenistic
|
|
---------------
|             |
Late-Greeks   Proto-Buzantines
|             |
---------------
|
|
Byzantines
|
|
Modern Greeks


Who has the right to claim the ancient Macedonian heritage,
the modern Greeks or the Slavs of the 6th century AD?


Gr

PS: I stop the arguments with airheads.
From: eeet255@csc.liv.ac.uk (Mr. M. Miliarakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: SE OLOYS TOYS ELLINES THS AGGLIAS
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:31:40 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

To Hellenic Society toy Panepisimioy toy Liverpool sxediazei ena demonstration sto Edinbourgo stis 11-12 December. Einai i diaskepsi korifis tis EOK kai tha pame gia na dosoume to paron gia to thema ton Skopion.

Diadoste to se oso perisoteroys Ellines mporeite.

An thelete na erthete se epafi mazi moy: 
Mixalis Miliarakis,
TEL: 051-726 1500
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10809 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9660 soc.culture.europe:9738
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 22 Nov 92 11:30:21 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Gregory  Dandulakis (gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU) writes:
>Enough is Enough! The Balkans had their share of bloody history.
>This CANCEROUS GROWTH should be immediately REMOVED.

So you want to make the history even more bloody? Because
of a name and a star? Nuthead.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: This is enough!
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:54:25 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos (iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de) writes:
I said:
))But it's quite understandable that Macedonia wants to arm itself.
))I would too with such a neighbour in the north.
)
)Do you remember when NAZI-Germany announced:
)"From 6.00 this morning we 're shooting back"
)when they fell over Poland??? They only wanted to "defend" themselves, too.

Why does Greece has an army? Not to defend itself, I presume.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Greece reacts sharply to Skopje map of 'Greater Macedonia'
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 01:08:54 GMT

 Here's something interesting.  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	ATHENS, Greece (UPI) -- Greece reacted sharply Tuesday to a map
published in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia that showed Greek
territory as part of a ``Greater Macedonia.''
	Government spokesman Vassilis Magginas said the map, published
Saturday in the Skopje newspaper Detoka Radost, was a provocation and
proved that the former Yugoslav republic had expansionist designs
against Greece.
	Athens has blocked European Community recognition of Macedonia after
it broke away from the Yugoslav federation.
	Greece says the use of the name ``Macedonia'' by the republic implies
that it has claims on Greek territory. Greece has a province of the same
name, and the dispute extends back several years.
	The map published in Detoka Radost shows the regions of Mount Athos
and Mount Olympus to be part of ``Greater Macedonia,'' along with areas
around Florina, Kastoria, Imathia, Pella, Serres and Pieria.
	It shows Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city, to be part of 
``Greater Macedonia,'' and includes the Aegean island of Thassos. Parts
of Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania are also included.
	Magginas said the map, along with other actions taken recently by
Skopje, ``serves to illustrate the correctness of the Greek position.''
He called on the European Community to ``draw correct conclusions from
these actions.''
	Foreign Minister Michalis Papaconstantinou has sent a letter to
Greece's EC partners and several international organizations drawing
attention to the map, officials said.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: mike.kozovski@rose.com (mike kozovski)
Subject: e: DON'T RECOGNIZE SK
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 22:25:43 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 11-21-92 17:21

> >3- It is not proper for a country which is part of a region to degine its
> >in an official manner as representing the whole region. Macedonia, like t
> >Americas, Europe, Scandanavia, and the Balkans, is a region. Just as in
> >no country in North and South America would call itself the [c/r added]
> "American Republic," and no European country would call itself the "Republ
>  ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> No offence, but what do you think the 'A' in 'USA' stands for?
>
>
> >Europe," the Skopje regime in naming itself cannot assume the mantle of a
> >Macedonia.
> >
>
>
>
> >Serafim.
>
> >P.S. And one more reason:
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >    M A C E D O N I A   I S   T H E   H E A R T   O F   H E L L A S
> >========================================================================

                      TIME, FOR OPEN HEART SURGERY.
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

         WE THE HEART (MACEDONIANS) REJECT THE BODY (HELL-AS)


           From the ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA 1899 Volume XV


    " MACEDONIA,
     when that name is taken in its widest signification, is the country
     between Thrace on the east and Illyria on the west, bounded on the S.
     by Thessaly and the Aegean Sea, and on the N. by the lands which belong
     to the basin of the Danube.

     The people of this country were not Hellenic, though its rulers
     ultimately succeeded in claiming that title for themselves, at the
     time when Alexander I. was admitted as a competitor at the Olympic
     games. The same thing may be said of the land itself, the appearance
     of which presents many points of contrast to that of Greece proper.
     Instead of the delicate, bright, and varied scenery of that country,
     with its clear atmosphere and sharp outlines, we find in Macedonia
     broad masses of mountains, extensive sweeps of lowland, and uniformity
     of colour."


     Rev. H.F.Tozer. M.A., author of "Lectures on the Geography of Greece."

---
   NFX V0.61b [103] MAKEDONSKO ZNAME VECNO KE SE VEE...
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Skopjian Recognition after US elections.
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:15:38 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Nov20.071047.6428@informix.com> rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia) writes:
[deleted]
>	Greece is trying to solve the issue by negotations and
>    political/economic pressure only. I do explain in another posting,
>    however, why Greece too, could be drawn into a war and carving of
>    the ex Yu rep of M, that is almost mathematically bound to happen.
>    And Greece can do nothing to avoid it. Those that believe that
>    Serbs will not move into their ex republic if this is recognized
>    by the UN are laughable.

That will be very sad. So - what do you think Greek reaction will be?
Approve/disapprove/intervene/watch/...?

> And Bulgaria is bound to follow, since

I doubt this very much. At present the ethnic ties between Bulgaria and
Macedonia are very much different than 70 years ago. No doubt that in few
years time, Macedonians will learn the truth about their past - this is
inevitable. Books here - in the West exist (and they are a lot) and
Macedonians will open them one day and will be amazed when they see the
difference from what they were taught in Skopie.

>    they do not recognize the inhabitants of the republic as a
>    different Macedonian nation,

I'm not quite sure on that point. No scholar disputes that 70 - 100 years
ago (and before that time) the Slav inhabitants of Vardar Macedonia were
Bulgarians and the language spoken there - Bulgarian, but it is also hard
to be disputed that nowadays matters are different. Change of nationality
is not such an unique event in world history. I think that few Bulgarians
don't recognize this fact.

> but as their Bulgarian brothers.

Maybe better words to say are 'brothers from the past' or the grandparents
were ethnic brothers.


>	Georgios


Luben


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let us not allow splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a
pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one
common disease"
				Gotse Delchev
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: fylakte@alleg.edu (Eleftherios Fylaktos)
Subject: SKOPJIA N   FLAG
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:36:12 GMT

I am a college student here at the states, from  
thessaloniki GREECE.
All I know about the subject is that Macedonians were  
Macedonians and not Greeks for the same reasons the  
Spartans were Spartans and not Greek. 
However, Macedonians as well as the rest of the "tribes"  
inhibiting what we now call Greece: spoke variations of  
the same language which was greek,
and in addition, all of them (plus Macedonians) were  
invited to the olympic games. What I am trying to say is,  
that one may have the right to say that macedonians were  
not greek, but absolutely cannot isolate and  
differenciate them from greece because of the bonds that  
existed and still exist.
But anyway, what is the point of arguing about somethings  
that happened 2000 years ago.We have to look at today. Of  
course you may say that you are being provoked by  
eachother, but can't you, grown up men with Ph.D's and  
all kinds of degrees, realize that all that is happening  
is a game of politics and power and you and me are the  
ones who are gonna loose anyway?
Right now ther are few "pure" greeks, or turks or  
anything at the balkans. We have all been fucked over by  
eachother. I have a best friend from Turkey that went to  
school here with me, and people thought we were brothers  
cause we looked the same. My housemate is from northern  
cyprus! and we get along fine! My best friend here is  
from Sarajevo! and I love him too. 
So if anyone wants to use the sun of vergina we might as  
well let them, cause it is just a symbol after all, and  
moreover history belongs to everyone.  The people are  
brainwashed to believe that they are greeks above  
anything else, or turks, or "macedonians" than anything  
else, and if they were not brainwashed, not only we  
wouldn't mind the slavs using the sun of vergina, but  
also there would be NO NEED TO USE IT ANYWAY because they  
wouln't need to have a fucking flag.
So please snap out of your brainwashing machines and stop  
doing that to other people too. Cause I swear, even I who  
is saying all that idealistic stuff, was ready to kill  
A.T.Fear and that guy Serdar Argic for what they were  
saying.
 Please, DON"T IGNORE THIS MESSAGE AND SAY SOMETHING BACK  
TO ME. IF I AM WRONG I NEED TO LEARN, BUT IF I AM RIGHT  
YOU NEED TO WAKE UP.

                PEACE 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek