HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Understanding (was Attack of the ...)
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:05:01 GMT

In article <iw.724556720@tosser> 
 iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth) writes:
>>That because we are men, there is no way
>>that we can truly understand.  You are in part doing to us, what
>>you claim we are doing to you.  How can you claim to know us so 
>>well, yet turn around and tell us that we can't understand what
>>it's like to be female.
>I do think that because mens experiences growing up in soceity are
>very different to womens, that men cannot fully appreciate the depth
>of hurt women are caused.  So I will continue to claim that you
>can not truly understand.  However I would never claim to understand
>what it is like to be male.  I believe society causes men a very
>great deal of pain as well - the pressure to be strong, to succeed,
>to be non-emotional.  I guess in an evaluation the material results
>are better for men than for women - and I can`t claim to understand
>the emotional impacts.

I would like to distingush my position on these matters from what I
see as some contrasting alternatives. (which may or may not
represent other parties.)

Roughly, I would say that I think it is *possible* for men to understand
women and women to understand men, and that it is a lot *easier*
for women to understand men than vis-versa. (Because of the 
assymetry of oppression.)

I would contrast this with saying that men can't understand women
or that men and women can't understand each other.

I would rather be told that I don't understand than I can't understand.

I think that as a man with aspirations to feminism I have a particular
responsibility to listen to what women have to say.

I am pretty familiar with the arguments on behalf of saying that group
X can't understand group Y, and I have some sympathy with them.

Perhaps I don't completely buy in to this program because I feel 
that it undersells the power of human empathy. Perhaps, it is because I
feel some urge to try to understand; to not just treat feminism
and/or women as ineffable facts of nature.

I'm not confident the above expresses the role this might take 
in discussion. I don't want to come across to the women
of the world saying "educate me" or "convince me with logic of
your experience".  

At the same time, as I engage the subject of feminism I am not 
just a passive receipient. I'm not convinced that assuming I *can't*
(as opposed to *don't*) understand is a productive attitude for
me to adopt. 

I am trying to pay attention.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Pins
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:34:01 GMT

In article <1g8s1pINNccm@cuda.add.itg.ti.com>
 winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
>In article <1992Dec7.190253.10877@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>,
 dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells) writes:
>|>
>|> If so, let's all give the silent ones a big round of *hugs*.
>|> (Maybe they'll come out of hiding if we make them feel safe *grin*)
>PleaseOplease!
>I'm friendly!  and so is Darren.  We don't BITE! (often enough..)

At least, not without permission.  (as long as I am well fed.)
>
>|>
>|> Darren
>|> (needing a Serious Backrub after his Stats final *yik*)
>Well, first drive about 200 miles and then I'll oblige.
>
>On second thought, we could meet halfway and reciprocate.

The second one sounds like a winner . . .

>js

Darren

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (The Assasin's Guild)
Subject: Re: Hi!
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:40:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.162937.27360@news.columbia.edu> jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.065556.6457@microunity.com> 
>qua@microunity.com (Henry Massalin) writes:
>>jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
>>Hey!  I know you...
>>
>
>Hi, Henry! Glad you're settled. Having fun?
>
>>	*jumps up and down happily; searches the net for a piggy-back ride*
>
>Everyone, meet Henry. Henry is *the* most energetic person I have ever met
>in my life. You can take him out and feed him all the sushi he can eat (which
>is not an insignificant amount) and he'll *still* bounce several feet into the
>air and offer everyone a piggy-back ride upon leaving the restaurant.
>
>-jenneke

Hey, I've got to meet this guy then... The only problem is the sushi.  I can't
afford to feed _me_ all the sushi I can eat, much less me and him...
Hugs and welcome, Henry.  I'm assuming that jenneke's introductory paragraph
means you haven't been here before.  (So, do you read news here often? :))

				*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*
				Steve
-- 
| The Assasin's Guild           |  No matter how subtle the wizard...     |
| c/o Stephen C. Litterst       |   A knife between the shoulder blades   |
| kyraan@bach.udel.edu           \   will always cramp his style.         |
|_litterst@freezer.cns.udel.edu___\_____________Stephen Brust_____________|
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca (Nigel M Burnett)
Subject: Re: Australians (was Re: accidently out)
Organization: as little as possible
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:35:28 GMT

Nick Nicholas (nsn@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU) wrote:
: (And what is it with
: bisexuals liking Mahler? Tim, me, Zoe, Kay... ok, ok, small sample size,

Add another one.  When I bought a CD player, I thought it might be necessary
to get a new amp (any excuse :-)}) but after playing Mahler's First at
as loud a volume as I'd EVER want to, the old amp was just fine thank you
very much, the speakers too, but sorry about the cracks in the plaster.

Cheers
Nigel
-- 
The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of
a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.  His own
good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.   John Stuart Mill

Nigel Burnett: 78 Normandy Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M4L 3K3, 416-690-1834
Send e-mail to nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca or try uunet.ca!kink!kathunk!nigel
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:22:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.000518.3111@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells) writes:
>In article <Bz0992.3vK@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec8.204828.28725@athena.cs.uga.edu>
> wells@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Wells) writes:
>>>4. When do I get my Special Rights Discount Card (and certificate,
>>>suitable for framing) ?
>>I'll do you one.  Promise.
>You will?  Can you do one for me, too?  :)

Yeah.  I hope you can print PostScript?  'cos that's how I'm doing
them...

>>6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
>Okay . . . everytime I read this, I get curiouser and curioser.  You
>don't happen to be planning on seeing Texas anytime soon, do you?

Welll..... I *could* be... I think there's someone in Austin I may
want to see...

>*grin*

*grin* back.

>Darren
>(6'3", dark short hair, green eyes, bisexual and horny as ....)

Oh, that clinches it!  I'll be coming.

				Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: yal@cltr.uq.oz.au (Yvette Lian)
Subject: Re: Singing Queers
Organization: Centre for Language Teaching and Research, Uni of Queensland, AUSTRALIA.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:21:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.061924.4761@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> yal@cltr.uq.oz.au (Yvette Lian) writes:
>Umm... Elton John?  Is he queer, or just queer-friendly?  

Oh yeh, his mate, Bernie Taupin (sp?).

Enough from me today - I've posted more today than I have in the past few
months... :)


--
Yvette Lian
yal@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au 
FIDO: 3:640/352 
IRC nick: Maxine2
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: This word 'understand'
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:52:39 GMT

In article <92355.223822SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>I've got a semantics question - what Under the Tree do you people
>mean by 'understand'?
>
>I can't understand *anyone* in the same sense as I understand myself,
>because I'm already in here and there isn't room in my head for all
>of them.  (Never mind the I/O problem!)
>
Well, in this context, we've been comparing understanding between groups vs.
understanding within groups.

So I would suggest that "understand" be read "understand as well
as I can understand anyone else", which sidesteps your question.

I would suggest my understanding of people may be inversely
related to the likelihood of their behavior surprising me.
  
I especially get the feeling of "being on the same wavelength" 
with someone else when we are both able to successfully
anticipate each other or fill one in the gaps in what the other is
saying.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:52:45 GMT

In article <BzDEoK.IH@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca> nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca (Nigel M Burnett) writes:
>the Crisco Kid (idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk) wrote:
>: >>Darren
>: >>(6'3", dark short hair, green eyes, bisexual and horny as ....)
>: >swoon.  Omy you aren't coming up The northeastern direction are you?
>: >Green eyes? swoon again.
>: 
>: 6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
>
>and me 6'1.75", rather unkempt greying hair, hazel eyes, bisexual, and
>horny as ... (the rest of youse guys!)  :-)}
>					   ^<-- that's the beard
>
>Doesn't anyone (other than the odd Ausie) want to visit Toronto?
>
>eh?
>
>Nigel
>-- 
>The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of
>a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.  His own
>good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.   John Stuart Mill
>
>Nigel Burnett: 78 Normandy Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M4L 3K3, 416-690-1834
>Send e-mail to nigel@kathunk.phaedrav.on.ca or try uunet.ca!kink!kathunk!nigel


-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
   Deconstruct your Gender          Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
Give me life, Give me pain,         It just means use your imagination. 
Give me myself again.  Tori Amos.            Billy Bragg 
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Subject: Re: Umm, hello!                             
Reply-To: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Glad to be Sad
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:40:34 GMT

In article <Bz2F62.63A@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.163837.28509@infodev.cam.ac.uk> SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk writes:
>>(Er, aside: wonder why the Computer Lab dominates postings to soc.bi from
>>  Cambridge?  A friend told me that less than half the computer scientists
>>  she knew were straight, but I don't buy that....)
>
>Because other depts in Cambridge mostly don't have news-posting rights.
>
But some do -- Engineering, for one -- and there's the sparkly new Central
Unix Service, which they're going to let selected undergraduates at next
term.  It just surprises me that none of these others actually show up,
given the comparatively large numbers from the lab....

--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk  | There's nowt |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
(and elsewhere)  ___ | so queer as  |"When my self-esteem is sinking,
                 \X/ | folk....     |"I like to be liked" -- Peter Gabriel
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:23:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.004820.27444@udel.edu>
 litterst@pecan.cns.udel.edu (The Assasin's Guild) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.000518.3111@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
 dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells) writes:
>>In article <Bz0992.3vK@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
>> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>
>>>6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
>>
>>Okay . . . everytime I read this, I get curiouser and curioser.  You
>>don't happen to be planning on seeing Texas anytime soon, do you?
>
>But only after you come through Del. right?  Then we all can go to Texas.

Darren scratches his head as he considers the prospect of several
bi people from Delaware, et. al.  trying to fit in his little
apartment.

Hmm.

Maybe this would be a good time to come out to my mom, since she has
a couple of spare bedrooms.

>>Darren
>>(6'3", dark short hair, green eyes, bisexual and horny as ....)
>
>Steve
>(6'5", long blonde hair, blue-green eyes, unknown and probably not as horny
>  as either of you.)

But you still sound *quite* interesting.  ;)

>    *HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*HUG*
>    *SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEZE*SMOOOOOOOOOCH*

Hugs, squeezes and smooch returned with ferver.  :)

Darren

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: TXK025@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Eddie Chandler)
Subject: Aren't people amazing!!?????
Organization: Motorola
Date: 15 Dec 1992 03:31:30 CST

As the title says, Aren't people amazing??

I mean, there you are sitting chatting with a couple
of close friends (and ones ex) - people who you've known
for about 5 years. You know most things about each other
and have had enough time to realise what they are
like (characterwise). Then all of a sudden, something
comes out into the open and *quite frighteningly* they become
phobic and disgusted.

I won't go into any real detail as it doesn't really have any
real impetous on the group, but I thought I'd post as it just
goes to show that even people who you *think* you know.......
be they gay, lesbian or straight that *they* can still be
moralistic and narrow-minded (to the point of phobia)

The situation, if anyone is interested, is that I had received
a phone call from someone that I had contacted re an ad in a
'personals' magazine.
My ex answered the phone, and while I was speaking to the caller,
he realised that he knew the person who was.
After the call, my ex burst out laughing and told me he knew
the caller (Barry) and to ask the friends that were due round that
night about him.

That evening, the friends came round, I socialized and then went to
do my own thing. I got called downstairs, and found that my ex had
told them about Barry calling but hadn't said anything else.

Well, these friends wanted to know absolutely *everthing*
(the advert, what Barry had said etc etc etc).

When I told had told them about the advert they looked at me in
disgust and said that this particular interest wasn't normal
and that "*I* had a problem that should be *cured*"
(Now does this sound like a hetty preaching or what
 - and these friends are gay! - thats what *I* found
   REALLY frightening!!)

WE, the friends and I, then had a heated debate about
what *IS* normal
i.e. that being gay is, yet having a different sexual interest
     is a "problem that should be cured" (their words)

As a result, there was a big stand-off and I walked out
calling them hypocritical bigotted assholes (excuse the language)
*AND* I now have two less friends as they now view me as some
kind of sick/'diseased' pervert.


As I said before, this doesn't really aplly to this group, but after
reading the letter from the originator of :
"Oooh, am I miffed"
describing the comments and intolerance they received about
wearing a bi-badge, I thought that *some* might want to hear
about gay 'friends' slagging off just because they are narrow-minded.


If anyone wants to flame, then do so - I'm prepared for it anyway!


Eddie Chandler
 "So I'm not normal, BIG DEAL! *I'M* not the one with a problem about it
From: winsor@geek.teng.ppd.ti.com (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Oooh, am I miffed!
Date: 14 Dec 1992 18:11:56 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com

In article <MlR=7x#@engin.umich.edu>, rowe@engin.umich.edu (Steven Rowe) writes:
|> Growf!  I just got back home from a night out at a local disco (it's
|> gay night 2-nite).  I almost had a wonderful time, but...
|> 
|> I just posted recently about the cute little pin (button) I bought.
|> Pretty inocuous, 1.5 cm diameter, interlocking mars/venus signs.
|> So, I'm walking along, I pass a group of folks, and pull up a stool.
|> Then I hear them saying stuff like "Did you see that pin?  Imagine
|> walking around saying 'I'm bisexual.'  Yuck!  What audacity!"
|> So I look over, and yes, they were talking about ME.  I smiled
|> demurel, got up, and found a much more bi-friendly environment...
|> Here.  Hug me?
There was a thread a while back about *just* this sort of thing.

I understand COMPLETELY.

HUGS <-- really supportive ones
js
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:22:01 GMT

In article <BzInI2.7Bn@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>Not in my experience, she doesn't.  However, she has observed that the
>most clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical suggestions are proposed
>almost exclusively by men.

And she finds smug, patronizing attitudes wrapped around
these suggestions particularly tiresome, especially when
they come from nitwits who admit that the entire issue is
not a priority from them.

Not that I intend to continue this thread - it's the
holidays, after all, and I find it too, too difficult to
resist calling, uh, people (phew!) like this, uh, person
from ibm (made it through that one, too!) rude names.

Best wishes of the season, uh, guy!
--
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:16:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.023945.2526@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> 
 dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.174056.1527@athena.cs.uga.edu>
> wells@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Wells) writes:
>>But is 5'10" really tall ?
>>
>>Consider the the Scott (6'3") Wells Height-o-meter:
>>
>>Short:  up to 6'
>>Average: 6'1" to 6'5"
>>Mutant: over 6'5"
>
>So I guess I am average, at least when the Scott Wells Height-o-meter
>is invoked.  :)  It's nice to be an average height for a change.

Well, I guess I am another average person.  Though, just for the record,
I am very *adjustible* when it comes to hugging people of various
heights.

My friends could testify that I am willing and able to hug people
going down to, say, 3' feet tall (usually rather young), up to as
large as I can find.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Subject: Those silly fortune cookies and life
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:11:11 GMT

Here is my "destiny"(ming:)

"Versatility is one of your outstanding traits."  "in bed."

O I just love it. :+)
O the biness of it all.

This is probably my last post before I roll on out of this poor little town
home for the break.  I would like to say a couple things about this net and 
about my current state of mind.  
This semester I began to investigate my sexuality.  This campus, (I *won't*
say, "We have this group on campus...." ;), is politically charged.  It is
difficult to separate the life of the activist from the life of the individual
I needed a relatively politically-neutral zone, or at least one where I could
avoid it if I needed to or contribute without fear of exposure.  I needed
a queer positive space.  My Dormatory is not the place for this.  I have
many anti-queer friends (or are they:|) and I have always been razzled for 
being a little unnormal.  I needed somewhere to sift things out, to distill
my own views and perceptions.  I found this place.  It has proven to be 
one of the most fulfilling experiences of my life.  I come here for release.
I come here to laugh.  I come here to meet people and talk and hear new
thoughts.  I was not able to do that here.  I used to whisper to myself,
"You're bisexual."  I used to laugh.  Then I used to smile.  Then I used to
sweat.  Then I used to nod.  And now I say it proudly,  I am bisexual. 
You all have provided me with the oppurtunity to do this.  By being here you
made my life a far more plearsurable experience.  It has taught me the meaning
of queer pride.  Of queer identity.  When I first saw people with the 
word bisexual or triangles in their sigs, I felt a stirring in my breast.
Just a recognition of others who were here.  Who were feeling this way, who
had gone through it.  
I just wanted to thank you all.  Thank you everyone who has made this a worth
while experience.

I loved it.  It was better than Cats.  I'll read it again and again.
I laughed I cried It became a part of me.

:)

Off I go to smile at the world. 
have a good break
 

 


-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
   Deconstruct your Gender          Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
Give me life, Give me pain,         It just means use your imagination. 
Give me myself again.  Tori Amos.            Billy Bragg
From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Is personality visible through email
Date: 18 Dec 1992 15:11:33 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) writes:
>
>When I met some soc.bi folk at the London Pride march and then up in
>Edinburgh, several people were surprised that I was not much like I
>appeared on the net. It appears that I come across as being 40+ years of
>age and have no sense of humour. I was amused when I met Kay Dekker and
>after chatting to him for about 5 minutes he proclaimed "You're nothing
>like what I expected. You're *smiling*!"

*laugh*  Well, if it makes it any better, I had you in mind, Ciaran, as
the clearest exception to my thesis on e-personality.  Far as I can tell
(on the basis of a chat in Edinburgh once upon a time, and your
more-than-miniscule reputation) you're *nothing* like your e-persona at
all.  Not a pool-cue in sight ;-)

Makes me wonder why ... but I suppose one can generate speculative
theories easily enough.

hugs
Mike
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss