HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:22:10 GMT

From article <1992Dec22.090541.29021@news.cs.indiana.edu>, by mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires):
> In article <1gted3INN8md@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>>
>>I wonder, however, whether handguns may have been very _uncommon_, even
> 
> One of the Medici is alleged to have saved his life in the 15th century
> by using a multi-barrelled pistol of some type (probably multiple
> muzzle loading barrels with a single lock mechanism).
> 

As a fledgling gunsmith I would like to throw out some approximate
dates for certain types of weapons.  Cannon are first mentioned
as being used by the 1200's.  Leonardo Di VInci drew the first
known wheelllock mechanism.  The matchlock preceeded the wheellock.
The snaphaunce lock came out in the late 1500's.  The miquelet
lock came out as early as 1570.  The dog lock came out between
1610 and 1620.  The last three locks I mention are types of flintlocks.
Multi-barrel pistols and hand connons were quite prevalent.  

Until the flintlock came out, the only pistols of note were wheellocks.
Being an expensive and finicky device, they were limited to those that
could afford them.

I fanyone is interested, I will be hosting a period shoot in Ered
Sul (Flagstaff, AZ) in May or June.  The contests will include
matchlock musket, early style flintlock pistol, wheellock and
a general catagory for flintlock muskets.  Also, I will be selling
plans and parts for hand making a 16th century matchlock musket.
The plans will be ready for sale by the end of January (if all
goes well).  I will also be carrying rapiers and other odds-and-ends.
Send a SASE to:

C.R. Designs
Box 1215
Flagstaff, AZ 86001

If you are interested.
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 20:12:50

 G> > I recommend to your attention a very good (and thick) book, *La
 G> > Tradition et Les Traditions" by Yves Congar, OP (available in English
                                                   ^^
 G> > translation for the culturally challenged). Ignore the theological
 G> > essay if you wish (although it would profit much to read it); the
 G> > historical essay alone is well worth digesting.

 G> I've read a collection of essays edited by Martin Redfern (?),
 G> but not this.  Is Congar still alive, incidentally?  She must be in
 G> her eighties or nineties by now...

 "He" (last time I looked, the Dominicans didn't ordain women...)

 G> >  G> Does that mean you think the SCA should intentionally steer its own 
 G> >  G> heraldic style to be like this, or that's just where your
 G> >  G> aesthetic ideals lie?
 G> >
 G> >  Both. As anyone in the College of Arms can tell you, the congruence
 G> >  between my aesthetic ideals and how God intended things to be
 G> >  asymptotically approaches identity. 8-)

 G> ...and I'm sure I don't need to mention that the society is far too
 G> full of the rugged individualist type for this kind of forced
 G> restriction to ever gain widespread support ...

    Even though I keep pointing out that rugged individualism isn't very
    Period, either...

 G> I am impressed that you credit God with such good aesthetics, though...
 G> :-)

    Oh, I have plenty of problems with God's aesthetics - look at any ten
    Laurels picked at random - but His *intentions* are good...

Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Organization: Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:53:25 -0500 
From: "Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz" <ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
	<0Nw1VB2w165w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca>

Worshipful sir, I recommend me to you. In your recent missive you write:
>                                I find heralry great fun and If I was 
>ever to get involved formally with a group that professes anacronism and 
>at the same time beats on people for being OOP, I'd certainly ignore 
>their CoA.  I consider it quite "in Period" to play the 'black Knight' 
>and ignore authorities I felt had no claim to my respect and/OR 
>obediance.

The second part of your statement makes sense to me. However, the first 
does not. The CoA has no power to beat on people. Therefore, why rail 
against it? Also, the CoA has been given the task of encouraging medieval
and Renaissance European heraldry. It falls short on many occasions, however,
it doesn't make sense to condemn the CoA for their non-support of 20th
century heraldry just because it's 'good heraldry.' It doesn't bear a
resemblance to
medieval heraldry.

>  I have a gorgeous set of arms with an astronauts helmet for a helm and 
>a nova in a starfield, set in a hexagonal shield.  Nothing 'bad' about 
>that. Coa would hate it though.   
> 
>  As far as I'm concerned a peice of good heraldic art is one that serves 
>the function to which it was designed for; namely to identify the bearer 

Are you actually speaking of heraldic art or heraldry? Do you see a difference
between the two?

It seems to me, from the few examples I've seen, that modern heraldry is more
picturesque than medieval heraldry (to the modern eye). Is this what
your talking about when you say heraldic art?

I have no doubt that the arms you've designed are beautiful. What do they
have to do with the Middle Ages? When a person writes a freeform poem with
no meter, rhyme or alliteration, what does it have to do with the middle 
ages? It may be a lovely little poem, just as your device is lovely, but 
what does it add to the SCA. 

It seems to me, from your few comments, that you feel any anachronism should
be acceptable in an anachronistic organization. If this is your position, I
disagree. It took me a while to enjoy doing research. And some people never
do enjoy research. But not doing research, and actively doing things which
you know to be WAY out of period are different. Many people join the SCA to
remove themselves from the 20th century. I think the least we can all do is
try to not be obtrusively modern.

This does not mean that I don't think the device you've designed is 'good
heraldry.' I don't know enough about modern heraldry to even attempt to make
any judgement of it. Is it your intent is to display it at an SCA event? If
so, why? What makes you feel that it is appropriate?

Written Monday before the celebration of the birth of Our Lord, from my home
in the Debatable Lands.

Su segura servidora,
                Esmeralda

P.S. I can see it now, people coming up to me with *plenty* of examples
of freeform period poetry. 8-)  *Oh* the shame.

From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 16:02:48

    Jeremy de Merstone wrote:
 P> Reply-To: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU

 P> >     I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part
 P> >     of the western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I
 P> >     suggest that a substantial case could be made. This means
 P> >     Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy, and I even look askance at most
 P> >     of Germany....

 P> I suppose that saying "A includes B" does not necessarily imply that
 P> "A does not include C", but the comment about Germany didn't sound like a
 P> "A DOES include C" to me (where A=="western culture" and C=="Germany", in
 P> this case).

 Well, which are you concerned with? "What it sounds like" or "what it
 *says*"? If you want my opinion, it's there for anyone to see; if you
 merely want to ascribe an opinion to me that you suspect I might hold, I
 guess you could pull that out of it if it's really important to you.

 Nor does "look askance at Germany" imply "cut Germany out altogether",
 which is how you appear to be interpreting it.

 The western Roman Empire (and my "preferred core") includes Germany (et
 al.) up to the Rhine; certainly Germany was never part of the *eastern*
 Roman Empire. Your mileage may vary.

 P> But I *do* contend that "I define..." represents a "definition".

 Pish and tush. "I define X to include Y" is not a definition, it is at
 most merely part of a definition. (*sigh* I blame the schools....)


    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 19:28:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec21.163849.14938@advtech.uswest.com> guyw@advtech.uswest.com (Guy Wells) writes:
>The newest Knight of the Northern Outlands is Sir Titus Claudius
>Severus, although he doesn't use the "Sir" title, he uses a roman
>equivalent which I have conveniently forgotten at this time (darn it!).

Miles?  Eques?

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: Re-joining the SCA as a Bandit
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:48:50 GMT


Greetings, good gentles!

The Barony of the Lonely Tower has had a bit of a bad reputation for a while.
However, especially in the past year, things have changed dramatically.  There
have been changes made, and there are more changes being made, which have
allowed the Barony to once again become an active and vital part of Calontir,
and which have allowed its citizens to again devote themselves less to internal
politics and more to "playing the game" of the SCA.

It bothered me when I heard this "Axel Rose" deriding the Barony, stating that
we were the reason he had not been active in the SCA of late, and that he would
rather play "as a bandit" than be part of the Barony.  I was particularly
upset that he would make such statements when it was evident from his posts
that he had not been active in some while, and was probably unaware of the many
local changes for the better.

I decided to try to find out who he was, with the intention of contacting him
and trying to get him to give us "another chance".  I found through the UNO
system that his real name is John Sheibeler.  And, with the help of an old
baronial phone list, I found out just who John Sheibeler is in the SCA.

He goes by the name "Andre du Giant".  He has never been more than peripherally
active in the Society.  I have only met him on two or three occasions myself,
but the impression he gave me of himself has been supported by everything I 
have heard of him from any other source.

I have no wish to "air our dirty laundry" here.  Suffice it to say that his
problems with the Barony have not all been the Barony's fault.  In fact, the
members of the Barony several years ago, when he first made his presence
known, took great pains to "bring him into the fold"; however, it was to no
avail, as his desire was clearly to play his own game, with little concern for
what the Society at large or the Barony expected.

I am sorry to bring this information to a public forum such as the Rialto, but
felt that it was important that those reading his statements about the Barony
be aware that there is another side to the story.


In service to the Barony of the Lonely Tower and to the Kingdom of Calontir,
	I am,

		Ld Elwyn of Thornbury


(Darryl Burgdorf; dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu)
From: ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rialto History
Date: 3 Jan 93 04:25:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.wfFjR1q00WB381hYgs
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Good gentles,

I greatly enjoyed Yaakov's "Rialto Geek" quiz...  I certainly qualify
as one even though I've only been around for a little over two years.
BECAUSE I've only been around on the net for a relatively short time
I'd really appreciate it if some of the old timers would share some
of the _history_ of the Rialto with the rest of us, things like:

  o When the SCA newsgroup first started
 
  o What it was originally called

  o How many original participants were there (and who?)

  o The time-frame of the name debate (ditto the 'bit of net' "badge")

  o Any "famous" folk who used to be Rialtans but are not now

You get the idea...  Enlighten those of us who weren't around from the
very beginning about how things got started.

Many thanks, good friends -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: period firearms
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 18:02:00 GMT


A paramount concern over the introduction of firearms into the SCA
would safety.  Period cannon, for example, were about as dangerous to
their users as they were to the target.  Guns slowly became more
reliable and less dangerous, but even as late as the Civil War (US)
you still had user casualties.

Also, what would the purpose be of introducing them?  Demos are one
thing, but if they were to become another martial art, like archery,
the safety issue would be extremely important; also, I would imagine
that there would have to be extremely high standards for
authorization; many burst barrels were the results of putting too much
gunpowder into the gun.

One more factor: where are we going to get functional period firearms?
I do not know of any company that manufactures them, although I'm sure
they exist for the appropriate price.  If SCA smiths took to making
them, they would have to worry about the legal implications of
manufacturing a possibly dangerous product, etc.  

Tio dell'abaco
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Non-European Personas
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
	<1992Dec20.123134.18716@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:46:55 GMT

Cariadoc writes:

> "Malek," I believe, literally means "King" (I donUt speak
>Arabic, unfortunately), but I think it is usually used as one of the
>terms for God.

and Fiametta answers:

>The Moslem chroniclers of the third crusade refered to Richard the Lion
>Hearted as "Malik" with sone frequency, so it is a term which can be used
>for an earthly king.

Perhaps it is only used for non-Moslems (who have not submitted to Allah,
the supreme king....)?

			---Simon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 17:03:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.094830.5935@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron) writes:
|> Greetings to Aryk Nusbacher and those who read these lines!
|> 
|> 	First of all, I said nothing of winning Crown, just fighting there.
|> It is, IMHO, the single most challenging tournament of the year/half-year.  It
|> is because of the calibre of fighters and the will to win that the challenge
|> is greatest.  It is the CHALLENGE, the striving toward perfection, which I 
|> hope for.  It is the striving toward perfection (again IMHO) that is the
|> pinnacle of chivalry.
|> 
|> 	Besides, IF I ever get to Crown and IF I get to, say, the semi-finals,
|> I'll either yield or die putting up a good fight.  I wouldn't wish to skew the
|> contest too much (actually, the quarter-finals may be a good stopping-point as
|> well...).
|> 
|> -> Shandler
|> 
|> SCA: Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre
|> MKA: Aaron Pavao
|> NET: pavao@cae.wisc.edu
|> "The computer doesn't hate you, it's just out to get you."
|> 


The choice is yours, but think of those entering the tournament who
very much want to win with the intent of reigning.  Think of how someone
would feel if you eliminated them from the tournament and proceeded to
throw the next round.  Think of how the winner will feel if he finds out
that you threw the bout or yielded.  They will always wonder if they would
have won had the bout not been 'rigged'.  Do you really want to spoil
someone else's moment of triumph in this way?  The desire to test your
mettle is certainly a valid consideration, but anyone fighting that day 
can be approached and fought (or met in a different tournament) on any other 
day.  Think of the Crown tournament as 'A tournament of those who wish to be Sovereign' and decline graciously.  This would take you closer to the pinnacle of
chivalry than accepting the invitation under false pretences. (assuming your
Kingdom's Crown tournament is invitational)  If, some day,  you do decide 
to follow the course of action you describe, I recommend that you tell noone
of your intent to eliminate yourself.  There are those who may take a very
dim view of it.

I've been invited to several crown tournaments.  While I've never been a
serious contender, I stopped accepting the invitations when mundane
considerations made reigning as King impractical.  Though I felt
honoured to have been considered worthy of invitation, I was saddened to
have to decline.  While I could have quite easily fought in the 
tournaments, secure in the knowledge that my chances of reaching the
finals would have been vanishingly small, I would have felt dishonest in
doing so.  You must of course follow your own conscience.

Cheers,
Balderik
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin)
Subject: You know you're in the SCA when:
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 25 Dec 92 17:48:58 GMT


   You know you're in the SCA when:

    You catch yourself mentally criticising the garb used by the children
during the Christmas Pagent before the Midnight Mass.


	 Frnk! ( Metal Garland Edging!??!!? )

	Pawel Ptasznik, House of the Moss Rose, Barony of Illiton, The Middle
--
frnk@bucs1.bradley.edu, frnk@camelot.bradley.edu, am417@cleveland.freenet.Edu

   Stress- That confusion that results when the mind overrides the body's
          desire to choke the snot out of some idiot who desperately
         needs it.
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spinning
Date: 2 Jan 93 18:59:12 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Kasia writes:
> Ilaine mentions "The care and feeding of Spinning Wheels" by Karen Pauli. 
> A nice bonus about that book, (so I've been told, anyway) is that Karen 
> Pauli is a sca person!

She is!  I had my copy autographed by her at Pennsic about five years ago.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: 4 On Fealty
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:51:11 GMT

Tadhg wrote:
  Technically, in period a "fee" was a source of income, typically land.
  Also qualifying in later times were fees and perquisites from an office,
  the "livery and maintenance" given to knights standing castle-guard, and
  the money fief or "fief-rente" (what we would call a pension or annuity).
  I don't think lump-sum payments qualify....

So, what's the problem?  Why can't any and all of these take place?  More
to the point, in my experience, they do take place.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:07:30 GMT

Mikjal Annarbjorn makes a few suggestions for Drachenwald Kingdom Law.

I'm not a member of Drachenwald, and I have not seen the current version
of the laws, but I have seen a draft version.  I thought I'd respond.
I will point out that it is MUCH TOO LATE to change the laws of
Drachenwald. If things are meeting the schedules I think they are,
the packet for consideration by the Board is already on its way
(or will be soonest), and the laws have to be part of that packet.

------
  1)  Don't succumb to the "Award/Grant/Patent" of arms nonsense for
  kingdom honors. [ . . . ] Treat the above as an "naked" AoA, to make the
  Corpora lawyers happy.

Their law doesn't specify anything about Awards/Grants/Patents. except that
former monarchs may be granted a Patent when they step down. I did point out
three things to them, when I reviewed the laws.  For one, Corpora allows them
to bestow Grants, but they didn't mention anything about them.  Two, they
intended to award membership in the Order of the Rose with an Award of Arms:
Corpora requires a Patent or nothing.  Three, they did not include an order
of precedence in their laws.

This means that, if they listened to my advice, they may have addressed the
issues since I wrote my letter.  I dunno if they did.

------
  2)  Don't hold elimination Crown Tourneys.  Have a challenge tourney,
  or a round robin format, or a series of "days" a la Bjornsborgs's
  Tournement of Lions.

Their preliminary Kingdom Law makes no mention of this.  For that matter,
neither does Corpora, nor East Kingdom Law. (Well, EK Law specifies a
double elim sort of list if the Seneschal is forced to supervise a Crown
Tourney when the Crown is held in regency).

------
  3)  Replace the inauthentic fealty and homage oaths us Americans foisted
  on you with versions of authentic medieval oaths.  (Unfortunately, you
  will have to remove the religious references, but swearing on relics can
  be replaced with swearing on the sword of state or the crowns or some
  such.)

The East Kingdom does not have standard oaths, so our former Principality
has never been burdened by them.  Hey, while your at it Mikjal, throw
off *your* yoke...

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism