HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 14 Dec 1992 21:40:59 GMT
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu
Summary: Nope.

In article <1992Dec14.133146.8391@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>>When someone answers one of your challenges, you respond
>>by setting unreasonable standards of proof.  The challenge
>>in response is entirely approriate.
>
>I don't think you can prove anything, myself, unless it is
>strictly mathematical.

Dave, this is a straightforward admission on your part
that you've been indulging in the sort of intellectual
dishonesty of which I've accused you.  You demand proof
of those who disagree with you, even though you admit
that satisfactory proof is not possible.

>>OK, I'll prove the assertion to the extent that it can
>>be proved.  I'll present as fact statements that have
>>been accepted by the participants in the discussion thus far.
>
>Here's the rebut...
>
>>  - The CFV was posted several times to rec.music.synth.
>
>Out of an average of 75 articles per day...assuming 4 CFV's
>were posted over 30 days that's in the fractional percentages
>of the articles there.
>
>>    The ballot (CFV article) popped up in front of their
>>    noses unless they chose to prevent it from doing so.
>
>Along with 75 other messages (asuming you read faithfully every day)
>and since CFV can mean "Controlled Frequency Voltage" and is one
>in over a hundred acronyms used on r.m.s...it's more likely to
>be missed.

The point at issue isn't whether the message was likely to
have been noticed, it's whether it was available ("popped
up in front of their noses").  Dave, even your specific
rebuttals miss the point.  And are presented with important
context removed.

>>This is the second time I've answered one of your idiotic
>>demands for Truth.  You get that from religion, not from
>>philosophy or politics and most emphatically not from
>>usenet.
>
>How do you know where I get that?

If you get it at all, that's where you get it, because
absolute truth isn't available anywhere else.

>And who's truth do you think
>I am asking for?

You don't seem to care about truth at all.  I don't
know why you say "prove it" to others and reject the same
request when others make it of your.
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:52:08 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <1992Dec12.010008.7863@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|> 
|> But he would care if all of a sudden his traffic died, and not as many
|> people were out there as he'd known in the past. When he finds out that 
|> this is due to a newsgroup split, what's he going to do? 

How about flaming *you* for splitting the group?  After all, if you had honored
the vote it *would* *not* have spli!!

You, and you alone, are responsible for the split.

Honor the newgroup and the group will be back together!

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Xref: sparky news.groups:24706 rec.autos.vw:7594
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.autos.vw
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.autos.vw reorganization
Date: 19 Dec 92 19:13:34 GMT
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


matocha@aurora.engr.latech.edu (Kevin Matocha) says:

>	rec.autos.vw.air-cooled        (un-moderated)
>	rec.autos.vw.water-cooled      (un-moderated)
>	rec.autos.vw.misc	       (un-moderated)

Is there enough traffic in rec.autos.vw to justify a
 split?  Please publish some figures, such as
 posts per day + posts per week, in the total group
 and on the subtopics you propose.

Are VWs really that popular?  I am unenlightened yet.
From: karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: what does it take to get someone to vote?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 01:40:28 GMT
Organization: Mindcraft, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu
Summary: who cares?

As for the subject line of this article, people vote on
issues they care about.  It's up to others who care to
motivate them.

In article <1992Dec17.232854.25170@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>Did that article point people to the correct article that told people
>how to vote?
>
>No...

In fact, it did.

Are these hypothetical voters, the ones who can't decipher
"CFV", also so clueless that they don't know what "Re: "
means at the beginning of a "Subject: " header?  For those
who see all the ugly headers, the "References: " header was
there with the message ID of the correct article.  Users of
threading newsreaders could have accessed that article even
more easily.
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:35:01 GMT

In article <1gjc0uINN2qa@news.UU.NET> brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) writes:
> I would like to propose a newsgroup for the patriot movement in the U.S.
> This would include discussions on rights violations by legislation, gold 
> and silver as payment for debts, freedom organizations and many other basic 
> US Constitutional topics.

I think something like talk.politics.constitution or .liberty would be better.
The word "patriot" has so long been used as a soapbox for demagogues that in
many people's minds it's come to be associated with the war on drugs, big
government, foreign intervention, and anything else some tinpot would-be
dictator finds useful to enhance and expand his own power base...
-- 
%Peter da Silva/77487-5012 USA/+1 713 274 5180/Have you hugged your wolf today?
/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def/F{0 562 moveto 180 576 324 648 396 736 C 432 736 L
482 670 518 634 612 612 C}def/G{setgray}def .75 G F 612 792 L 0 792 L fill 1 G
324 720 24 0 360 arc fill 0 G 3 setlinewidth F stroke showpage % "Peerless"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:14:15 GMT

In article <adams.723921888@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:

>StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl) writes:
>
>>Unfortunately, "Amerindian" is a misnomer.  The native people of the
>>American continents are NOT related to the people of the Indian 
>>subcontinent.
>
>True enough.  But 'native' is not good, either.  I am a native.  I was born
>here.  The same thing went round and round last time.

You are a native of this country, but not a "Native American" in the
colloquial sense.  I don't know of anyone who refers to themselves as
"Native American" who does not have a fair portion of Cherokee or
Navajo (or some such) blood in them.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rossi@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Oliver Rosenkranz)
Subject: Is there a chance to read newsgroups via FTP ?
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:56:07 GMT

I don't know if this is the right place for my posting but the problem
occured to me late at night and now I terrible tired and don't want to
think about that stuff...

Are there FTP sites out there which carry the text of the newsgroups in
public directories with all the right permissions so that ftp user (even
anonymous ones) can read them. On my site this is (I think so) impossible
because newsgroup texts are in directories unreachable by anonymous ftp
users.
Is there any chance for me...? Please tell me via email (rossi@cs.tu-berlin.de)

--==rossi==--

Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Questions about rec.games.cyber
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:25:49 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) asks:
>
>1) r.g.c evolved out of a cyber-l mailing list, correct?
> The moderator felt that traffic was sufficient to support
> a newsgroup.  Now people are saying that traffic is low.
> What gives?

Part of it is that the "auto-moderator," which is supposed to
approve all postings sometimes doesn't, and often causes the
poster to get several bounces.  People (understandably) don't
like this, and don't post because of it.  Another thing is
that there is wide disagreement on what "traffic is low" means.
I think 5-10 postings a day is great (if the are useful or 
interesting to me).  Other people think that 10 is too low
and prefer 60 or 70.

>3) There's a few other cyberpunk groups lying around
> (?.?.chatsubo, et al).  What ground do they cover, and
> what do their readers think of this?

The other cyberpunk groups, (most notably alt.cyberpunk) mostly
cover cyberpunk fiction and technology.  This group covers
cyberpunk role playing games.  Although there is some overlap,
this has not been a problem in the past.  The vast majority of
postings to rec.games.cyber would not be approapreate (sp?)
to alt.cyberpunk, or any of the other cyberpunk type news groups.

Joshua Levy  (joshua@veritas.com) pseudo-moderator rec.game.cyber
Xref: sparky news.groups:24491 alt.native:1443
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:37:06 GMT
Reply-To: hades@Dartmouth.Edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Disclaimer: Personally, I really don't care who you think I speak for.
Moderator: Rec.Arts.Comics.Info

gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>In <1992Dec13.101035.13049@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu
>(JKF) writes:
>> While I'm posting to this subject, let me ask the news.groups readership
>> at large: is anyone actually opposed to a newsgroup for indigenous
>> Americans?

>Not I, but again I ask why the newsgroup should be exclusively by and
>about indigenous Americans, when they share so much with the indigenous
>peoples of other countries.

    Well, here's one reason: because many of them already have
appropriate soc.culture.* groups. Below is a list of most of the current
soc.culture.* groups in UseNet (I've removed a few that don't apply). If
you can show that the creation of soc.culture.native[.misc] doesn't
duplicate the functions of about 80%+ of the groups listed there, then I
have no problem at all with its creation. But, instead, if these groups
already cover topics that have to do with indigenous people in these
geographical locals, or at least the charter doesn't say it doesn't,
then soc.culture.native[.misc] is a completely redundant group, with the
exception of discussion about natives of the Americas.

soc.culture.afghanistan
soc.culture.african
soc.culture.arabic
soc.culture.asian
soc.culture.australian
soc.culture.bangladesh
soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
soc.culture.brazil
soc.culture.bulgaria
soc.culture.canada
soc.culture.caribbean
soc.culture.celtic
soc.culture.china
soc.culture.czecho-slovak
soc.culture.esperanto
soc.culture.europe
soc.culture.filipino
soc.culture.french
soc.culture.german
soc.culture.greek
soc.culture.hongkong
soc.culture.indian
soc.culture.indian.telugu
soc.culture.iranian
soc.culture.italian
soc.culture.japan
soc.culture.jewish
soc.culture.korean
soc.culture.latin-america
soc.culture.lebanon
soc.culture.magyar
soc.culture.mexican
soc.culture.nepal
soc.culture.netherlands
soc.culture.new-zealand
soc.culture.nordic
soc.culture.pakistan
soc.culture.polish
soc.culture.portuguese
soc.culture.romanian
soc.culture.soviet
soc.culture.spain
soc.culture.sri-lanka
soc.culture.taiwan
soc.culture.tamil
soc.culture.thai
soc.culture.turkish
soc.culture.vietnamese
soc.culture.yugoslavia
soc.culture.croatia

--
-Brian V. Hughes
	     "If you could care less, then why don't you?"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:14:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.152045.28945@nastar.uucp> phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie) writes:
> A general query to the net admins - how often do you have trouble with 
> readers of mailing lists not reading mail, or disk filling up due to mailing
> list volume?  Does it seem to be more work than the newgroup work, and news
> volume handling?

We've got gobs of disk space here, but even so we have occasionally had a
spool partition spill over on the floor. News I pretty much let run itself:
occasionally cleaning out groups like alt.hayco.sucks. At home, mailing list
volume is a problem every time Phrack comes out, since I have 3 or 4 users
who read it and insist on their own copy even though we have a local news
group for stuff like that.

(what's this? Peter da Silva reads Phrack? Sure... and CU-digest, though the
flaming about Howard Johnson's and HoHocon is getting boring: what do they
EXPECT a conservative-leaning hotel chain to do about a bunch of self-
professed phreakers? Sure, it's unethical, but it's not exactly a surprise.)

Mailing lists to me seem to be more of a problem than newsgroups for the
net, for the people running the, and for the readers. Where this hassle
balances out the costs of an extra newsgroup isn't easy to decide, and I
think the current 100 YES votes rule is as good a guess as any and better
than most. A bigger problem is how to measure and how much credibility to
give NO votes.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: weinss@warren1a.its.rpi.edu (Stephen Andrew Weinstein)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:34:01 GMT

jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>I never have figured out why some American Indians seem to be so ashamed
>of their breed that they want to try to change their name to somehing
>politically correct but completely meaningless.  What is wrong with
>soc.culture.american.indian?

Why not soc.culture.american.siberian?
Historically/Antropologically, that would make more sense, since India
is completely unrelated.  (Actually, not since the natives there were
also exploited by English-speaking whites trying to get rich, but that's
another story.)

>I suspect the new group could be more accurately labeled 
>soc.culture.indian.how.the.evil.white.man.screwed.us or 
>soc.culture.indian.bingo or 
>soc.culture.indian.getting.more.money.from.uncle.sam
>for what I anticipate the discussion will be about.
>(Yes, this is highly cynical but it seems appropriate to what I've seen
>in the media in recent years under the "native american" moniker)
This is even more cynical but I think the group should be create 
immediately with the name
soc.culture.indian.or.Native.or.native.or.aborigine.or.aboriginial.or...
as if the group news.groups is any guide, the discussion will be
about what to call them.

How about this historical and linquistically accurate name:
soc.culture.group.that.columbus.named.wrong

Stephen Weinstein
weinss@rpi.edu

Re: my old sig line: Further investigation revealed many cases of
college students not being able to vote because their college towns
wouldn't let them and their home towns lost their absentee ballot
applications.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<adams.723921888@spssig> <Bz5MFs.z0@unix.amherst.edu>
	<gs_rx#n@dixie.com> <Bz8JJ8.84v@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <7_+rjgb@dixie.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:26:49 GMT

In article <7_+rjgb@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

   Nontheless, you will agree with me that if you walk up to just
   about any US citizen and as him/her if he knows what an American
   Indian is, you'll get an answer that points to the indians of the
   type that helped the Pilgrims.

No doubt, but:

   I suspect most people would react to "native american" with either
   puzzlement or offence at yet another newspeak PC term.

I won't try to speak for "most people" but Native American has tended
to mean American Indian without puzzlement or offence where I've
lived.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.cyber renaming and unmoderation
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:46:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.055721.2255@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
>Laura Mollett (lmollett@lunatix.uucp) wrote:
>  Cyberpunk contains elements unknown in fantasy, other scifi, historical,
>or many other genres I can think of. Cyberpunk LIVES on these elements,
>they are the cornerstones of the genre. And, as I said, they are quite
>unknown in other genres.

The combination is unique, perhaps....

>  In what genre would you expect to see deckers plugging themselves into
>the matrix,
Some sort of science fiction game?  Did you read _Earth_ by Brin, for example?
Was that cyberpunk?

>a worldwide computer network?
Did you read Vinge's latest?  A galaxy-wide USENET, and certainly not
cyberpunk.

>How about the 'on the edge'-feel of cyberpunk?
How about the 'on the edge' feel of Call of Cthulhu?

>Limbs replaced with tech quite commonly?
There's *lots* of technical limbs in non-cyberpunk stories.  In a Fantasy
Hero campaign I was in, a character had a hand replaced magically with a
demon hand; if you substitute 'tech' for 'magic', this qualifies.

>Runners (who are not part of any corp but do the dirty work for
>whichever pays them)?
Ah, *mercenaries*.  I've heard of them before.  Actually, in many of the
campaigns I've been in, the description applies pretty well to the players.

>  I can think of campaign plots that are used in cyberpunk but don't fit
>into other genres without serious rewriting. How about discussion about
>how cybernetic parts should affect the sanity? Or 'how to design a
>decent computer network which has defences against the netrunners but
>are not impenetrable'? Or AIs?
>
The GM did go into problems with the demon hand.  Players in my Call of
Cthulhu campaign had plenty of sanity problems with what they did.

Nor is the 'how to design a decent * which has defenses against the PCs
but is not impenetrable' limited to cyberpunk only.  And why are AIs
cyberpunk only?  There's lots of AI in non-cyberpunk fiction and gaming
(in the Champions game I'm in, we've got one in our HQ), and what's the
real gaming difference between AIs and demons?

>  It is for the poster to decide if it's cyberpunk specific or of
>general interest to all roleplayers. Were I to play only fantasy and
>superhero genres, I wouldn't be so interested in campaign plots
>concerning megacorps, character ideas involving cybernetic
>modifications, or discussion about smartgun links.

Depends on whether the megacorp can be changed easily to the machinations
of Dr. Doom or whether you allow magical modifications to PCs, doesn't
it?  And why would smartgun links be out of line for supervillains?

DHT


Newsgroups: news.groups
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 05:32:44 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1992Dec19.030122.20363@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>>     (b) 5 votes without names issued from non-personal accounts:
>>     vida@chop.isca.uiowa.edu (VIDA Telnet Account)

>> ... I know Vida personally.  Not that it matters, her vote ought to
>> have been counted.

>That was a No vote, so make it 730-151 if you like.  The above was all
>I had to go on and it looked to me as though VIDA was an organizational
>acronym of some kind.

VIDA is indeed an acronym.  It has nothing to do with the individual
whose ISCABBS account name is Vida -- she doesn't even work for them.
(I was wrong before.)  There, aren't we all glad to get *that* out
of the way?  <grin>

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:12:58 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley):
>Renaming a group, in and of itself, has no effect on the contents of
>that group.

I think you've oversold your case, John: renaming *has* an effect.

For example, comp.unix.sysv386 is now named comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit;
with its new name it gets new traffic related to non-SysV UNIX.

That said, I agree that Ross's carping is to no purpose.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
From: mccalld@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.security.email
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:08:29 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Sonoma State University

> PROPOSAL:
>   Create a new newsgroup: 	comp.security.email
>   Moderation status:		unmoderated
>   Charter:			Discussions of security issues in electronic
> 				mail, discussions of applications software
> 				purporting to provide additional security in
> 				electronic mail, discussions of security issues
> 				in SMTP and ESMTP.
> 
> RATIONALE:
>   There is currently a large and ongoing discussion, primarily in
> sci.crypt but also in comp.security.misc and alt.security of the PGP
> software for email security.  Although there appear to be unresolved
> patent issues relating to the use of PGP within the United States,
> there are active users of PGP in many parts of the world and there is
> active PGP development outside the US.
> 
>   There is also existing discussion of Privacy Enhanced Mail (PEM),
> which will have new RFCs appearing very shortly.  At present PEM
> discussions are less in volume than the PGP discussions, however there
> are several implementations of PEM that will appear as soon as the
> RFCs are released by the IESG.  At least one PEM implementation will
> be freely distributable within the US and Canada.  Usually reliable
> sources indicate that other implementations will exist outside of
> North America after the RFCs are published.
> 
>   The discussions of PGP are really beyond the normal scope of
> sci.crypt and reportedly have had the effect of drowning out the prior
> discussions.  There are sufficient postings on PGP and PEM in existing
> newsgroups to justify creating a separate group for discussions of
> email security.
> 
You've got my vote!
mccalld@sonoma.edu
Xref: sparky news.groups:24633 alt.config:8029 alt.folklore.computers:18079 alt.fan.john-palmer:463