From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.d,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Walking down to the student center last night
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:12:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom San Jose

stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce) writes ...
>In article <1992Sep27.161223.24601@ugle.unit.no> leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO
>(Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) writes:
>
>[I realized after I started this that Leif is probably not a native english
>speaker, and as such I compliment his efforts and I don't want to unduly
>criticize him.  However, several others, who don't have the same excuse
>have made the same mistake, so I think this needs to be said.]

At least HE has an excuse.

>>In article <1992Sep27.093834.5371@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>,
>>sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth) writes:
>> > I think instead of "pro-choice" or pro-abortion" we should use a term
>> > that is more accurate.  The term "pro-infanticide", or more simply,
>> > "Pro-Murder" is the correct term that should be used, since after all,
>> > abortion is the outright killing of children.
>...
>>That's your opinions.  If there has turned up any solid evidence that a
>>partially developed fetus (like 12 weeks or less) is conscious and aware,
>>then I would agree that it is indeed a child.  Otherwise, my fine friend,
>>your posting is a prime example of fascist bullshit.
>>
>>Personally, I don't believe a fetus should be called a child, not until it
>>is developed enough to survive outside the womb.
>
>If you are going to argue about words, you ought to at least look them
>up.
>
>A fertilized egg is a child.  A zygote and a fetus are children. 
>Abortion unambiguously kills a child.  Abortion is in most cases a
>woman hiring a doctor to kill her child.  These are verifiable facts. 
>If you have a problem with this, then you don't just have a problem
>with me, you have a problem with english, with the truth, with reality.

Little of this is fact; it is mostly Mr. Fordyce's opinion stated as fact
(bigots always believe they're right).

A zygote is quite clearly not a child.  Ask 100 people on the street if
arms, legs, torso, heart, brain, stomach, lungs, and/or eyes & mouth
are requirements for a child, pretyy much all of them will say that yes,
at least some of these attributes are requirements for a child.  Note,
however, that a zygote has none of these.

It is possible that Mr. Fordyce is confused because since a zygote is too
small to see, he has never noticed that all these characteristic, common
among children, are wholly missing in the zygote.

As for his assertions that he is the soul repository or the truth, I'll
add that this claim has been made with equal validity by despotes, murderers,
and dictators throughout history.

>To say that a fetus is not a child is to redefine the word "child".  If
>this is not done out of ignorance, it is done to blunt the emotional
>impact of the language, because the language itself is biased against
>abortion rights in this case.  Be honest.

Paranoid too.

>Before I am attacked for my position on abortion, none of the above is to
>say that abortion is wrong or that it should be outlawed.  Having said that

Bullshit.  

>however, why is it that some people who are for abortion rights gets so mad
>when abortion is simply described in plain english or pictures of it are
>shown?

Because telling the truth selectively is still lying.

>Statements like this are exactly why I am against abortion: "Getting born
>means you're only halfway there [to being human]."  I've heard it seriously
>proposed that we allow "abortions" up to two years of age.  Abortion
>cheapens human life.

Seriously proposed?  By who?  When?  Or is this another lie?

>What evidence do you have that legal abortion cuts down on the number of
>unwanted children?  It may seem self-evident to you that it does, but it
>isn't.  The availability of cheap, legal abortions changes people's behavior
>(you have to at least concede that it might).  What actual data do you
>have?

Forcing women to undergo pregnancy & birth changes people's behavior
(you have to at least concede that it might).  What actual data do _you_
have?  And why do you think force is going to produce a better society?

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Every improvement in communication
ray@netcom.com                 makes the bore more terrible"  Frank Moore Colby
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