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Subject: Re: Hirsch
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:35:00 GMT
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Tim, thanks for the elucidation.  Perhaps the very notion of cultural literacy
will make more sense once we dump the current regime.  It's a bit hard not
just for students but even for some of us who believe in culture to get too
worked up about the *social* importance of such literacy when the last two
presidents and their minions have so successfully embodied a blythe, even
determinedly blythe ignorance, nay repudiation, of all things that might
meaningfully resonate with the word *culture*.

mbnotnotmcdonald

p.s.  I have a number of reasons for distrusting Hirsch's motives, and his
saying something to the effect that his list is "just a sample" doesn't
help matters.  No list is a mere sample; every list bears the marks of the
lister's point-of-view and preferences, and should be so acknowledged.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:27:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Gone with the Wind

I think it's bullshit that Isabel Archer is less popular than Scarlett O'Hara
because of the readability of Mitchell's prose compared to James's.  I.A. is
a very grand, yet very troubling and problematic character, a character whose
plight requires understanding rather than identification, whereas Scarlett
can readily be identified with on the basis of the reader's acquired sense of
the perils and triumphs of conventional romantic heroines.  There had never been
a character quite like Isabel Archer in literature before her story appeared,
and that is a mark of James' greatness.

mbmnotmccoll
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Name: Christopher Mark Conn
Organization: SAS Institute Inc., Austin, Texas
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:44:34 CDT
From:         Christopher Mark Conn <sascmc@UNX.SAS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Changes at the New Yorker
Comments: To: literary <literary%ucf1vm.bitnet@unx.sas.com>
              92 7:24 am

>
> Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
> Fido-To: fscll@alaska.bitnet
>
> I'll tell you what a traditionalist I am.  Those of you who
> were raised with the New Yorker know this sense.  You will
> pick it up at the newstand, flick open one page, and read
> the contents in your left hand.  It is, if there are other
> browsers present, a signal of breeding to know where the
> contents of the New Yorker are listed.  No one should ever
> pick up a copy of New Yorker for the first time.
>
>
> I have been disappointed on rare occasions to see some
> nincompoop had moved the table of contents.  I saw the
> decline of the magazine then.
>

What are the differences between the Atlantic and the New Yorker?


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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:41:37 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: Zen

        When I referred to Watts as intellectual, I meant that his books are
intended to explain Zen; the books I had in mind were more aimed at giving
the feel of staying in a monastary.  I didn't mean that the books were cold
or aloof.  Sorry, I didn't use very appropriate language there.  I'd be
interested in the Matthiessen and Snyder books, if you can give the titles.
Thanks.  Ian
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:31:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Gone with the Wind

> (...del...)                                                      Scarlett
> can readily be identified with on the basis of the reader's acquired sense of
> the perils and triumphs of conventional romantic heroines.                   e
en
>
> mbmnotmccoll

aack!  have you ever read GWTW, let alone any books with "conventional romantic
heroines"?  my assumption is that you haven't, because perhaps then you'd
know that scarlett is an unthinking bitch and a half, with extrordinary
tunnel vision and perserverance.  in most romance novels, she would be the
heroine's main rival and enemy.  mitchell wrote GWTW as an antidote to the
typical "love under the magnolias" romance.  i think it a major feat that
mitchell makes scarlett sympathetic at all.

conventional romantic heroines don't steal their younger sister's beaux,
just for the exercise, or for money.  they don't forsake all their old
friends because they aren't high enough on the social register, and then
end up isolated and alone.  they don't lose their husbands just as they
come to love them.  they tend not to eliminate childbearing from the
agenda merely for what it does to their figures.  they also tend to get
happy endings (postumous sequels aside).

read the last bit, where rhett leaves her, before the "i don't give a
damn" speech.  she's protesting her love for him, counting on his love
for her.  but he's had it up to his eyeballs with her, and it's killed
his love for her.  he says "i'm too old to say what's broken is whole."
call it colossal bad timing, but she's just too late in recognizing that
he suits her.  he's been hurt too many times and isn't going to get into
it again.  it's more like stegner's _angle of repose_ than any conventional
romance book.

naomi seeger
(quite surprised scarlett drew that out of me)
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:09:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      science/ /fantasy

        Tim, your argument is interesting. . . I don't think I agree with you
but I need some time to think about it. . . As you suggest, this is not likely
to be of wide interest, so perhaps we can continue privately.

        New topic:  As we seem to have finished slagging science fiction,
let's try fantasy.  I find that there is much more well-written fantasy out
there than there is SF.  (Although there is also a large amount of trash in
this field as well.)  There is also a large field which, in the technical
sense, may not be fantasy (there isn't anything which directly contravenes
natural laws as we know them) but, in spirit, is closer to fantasy than to SF.
There are quite a few solid, highly competent and prolific authors: Jo
Clayton, for example.  There are also some who are much better than competent:
Stephen Brust, CJ Cherryh (although I haven't been overwhelmed by what I've
read of hers, there are enough people who I respect who like her that I'm wil-
ling to concede her status), UK LeGuin, Guy Gavriel Kay.  I wouldn't put any
fantasy writer into the great literature category, but there are a lot who
provide consistently satisfying, believable, and *fun* books.
        Anyone want to start a discussion on the above - or on their personal
favorites?
        Ian
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:27:51 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Hypertext (was Kundera)

>It's possible that hypertext is a belated reflection of rela-
>tivity theory, or perhaps quantum indeterminacy. Or perhaps I just like the
>sound of "quantum indeterminacy."
>Michael B.

  Probably the latter.

  I can't, off-hand, imagine how hypertext reflects either, except
that "hypertext" is a word similar to "hypercube" which is a
four dimensional object, and special relativity has allowed us
to envision our world as comprised of four dimensions.

                        -Tim
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:31:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      erotica (was Re: Milorad Pavi)'

> "It was as though his right hand were more sinful than the left, after all."
>
> This strikes me as a rather straightforward, and extremely humorous reference
> to masturbation, though it's still a great taboo to admit that one knows
> anything about this subject from personal experience.
>
> mbmnotmccoll

well, maybe i missed it because i use both hands...

which segues quite neatly into the query i wanted to post - which is
can anyone recommend some good erotica?  i enjoyed _herotica_ and agree
with anais nin that it's more than just body parts rubbing together.
i don't want bodice-rippers, lust in the dust, throbbing maleroots, or
that kind of stuff.  it doesn't have to be politically correct sex,
but my tastes veer away from anne rice's sleeping beauty books.  so -
can anyone recommed some hot titles that titilate, envigorate, or
generally amuse?

naomi seeger
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 11:40:27 -0500
From:         WMISHLER@UMNACVX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Zen

The names of Van der Wettering's admirable books on Zen are: The Empty
Mirror and A Glimpse of Nothingness.  Both recommended.  As are his
detective stories, subtly infused with the spirit of Zen.
W. Mishler
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:23:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Gibson/Sterling/Irving

Yes, *Difference Engine* is hugely disappointing; in fact, I'd put it down
now.  It only gets worse.  Ian, I agree that Gibson is the best of the
cyberpunkers, but have you read Sterling's *Crystal ?* (sorry, the title's
eluding me).  It's his recent collection of shorter stories, some of which
are real gems.  Also, *Islands in the Net* departs from Gibson in being
overtly political, though this one suffers from a slightly (or more than
slightly?) silly ending.

mbmnotmccoll
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:41:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kundera

        Tim: While I haven't read the science books you recommend (and I may
therefore be completely out to lunch in the following statement) I must say
that the habit of using recent scientific advances as metaphors for life
(or whatever) does nothing for me.  There are several books, for example,
which use quantum theory as a metaphor for Zen Buddhism.  As far as I'm con-
cerned, a metaphor should be either useful - in that it provides an insight
one would otherwise have missed - or else it should be capable of making
the strange familiar and the familiar strange
.  These metaphors do neither.
They can't take you any further in understanding either science, or the rest
of life.  They are usually too extended to provide that shock of recognition
a good metaphor brings.
        Also, I thought the John Cage comment was more specific than your
comment: didn't Cage  write a piece based entirely on dripping water at
various tempi?
        Ian
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:59:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      re science metaphors

        Tim, I apologize for leaping to the conclusion that the books you
referred to were trying to make extended and unhelpful metaphors.  I'm afraid
that (in a fit of pique) I erased the posting with the names of the books in
question: could you repeat them please, and I'll try to get to them at some poin
   t.
However, let me ask (in all humility, and sincerely wanting to learn) if the
books provide any useful insight.  Can you, for example, use information
theory to make predictions about music?  Does entropy really give any insight
into Joyce's Ulysses?  I guess my point here is that if there is any "real"
association then we should be able to extend our knowledge, one way or another
(my examples are only a little bit facetious.)
        I don't doubt that all the obove concepts are useful for sociology
etc:  crowd behaviour, or whatever, probably is a pretty good example of
chaos.  But you brought up the question of art. . .
        Ian
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:10:00 EDT
From:         MJOSEPH@ZODIAC.BITNET
Subject:      changes at the new yorker

Yes, Ben. And hilarious that la Brown's replacement at VF should drop from
the editorial chair of SPY magazine, don't you think?


mjoseph
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:53:21 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kundera

>... the two poles are necessity and possibility.
>Each is a form of despair if it is not leavened with the other. Necessity
>is weight and obligation and duty and responsibility and lack of possibility.
>Possibility is having everything open, no choice made which would exclude
>other choices, the exhilaration which comes from having all this possility,
>but an attenuation of being itself, which is the form of despair, though
>Kierkegaard says that this being may not even realize that s/he is in des-
>pair. Neither one nor the other can be said to be the good.
>Michael McColl

  And perhaps Kierkegaard is on to something more universal than
he realizes.  I'm speaking of entropy and information theory and
self-organization and pattern formation.

  The essential idea, as this is probably not the forum for
discussing in detail any of these concepts, is that if you
take a physical system, and toss in a few rules of behavior,
that you will find the spontaneous generation of patterns
and order.  If the system is completely restricted, there is,
of course, some pattern, but no variety.  If the system is
completely unrestricted, there will be no obvious patterns.
An interesting example is convective patterns in fluids.
Bouyancy, viscosity, thermal expansion.  That's all you
need to generate very complex patterns exhibiting some
degree of order - but without being deterministically
predictable.  These concepts have expanded from the usual
thermodynamic scope - what one normally imagines when one
thinks of entropy - to DNA, telecommunications, language,
and a variety of other realms.

  Two excellent books - science for the interested
non-scientist that don't contain gross mistatements of
fact - are Jeremy Campbell's _Grammatical Man_ (especially)
and Paul Davies book ... the title escapes me at the moment -
on ordering in the universe.

  The point is that what Kierkegaard and Kundera and various
scientists and linguists and mathematicians have stumbled
upon may be something extremely fundamental and profound.

  (I believe I mentioned, in a post on Kundera, how these ideas
have informed my own theories of music - and with the recent
death of John Cage, it is a particularly appropriate time to
be thinking of such things.)

  (And since I've mentioned John Cage, I'll tie this back into
a literary reference before I end the post.  Robertson Davies,
in one of his books from the Deptford Trilogy, describes water,
leaking from the roof into scattered pails on the floor as
"making John Cage music."  I always liked that quote.  No rules,
no patterns ... no music.  One man's opinion.)

                                    -Tim
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 07:30:36 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Faulkner, then..

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: maint2@ers.bitnet

MT> . . . but I don't find anything unsubstantial about Faulkner,
MT> as compared to his 19th century predecessors.

Faulkner has everything, fear and rage and desolation and the
impossible interstices of lust and resentment annealed to the
human condition.  Plus rape with a foreign object and grisly
castration.

Boil down the myth Bill heard as a child, squatting in his
mama's kitchen, though.  There are long discourses and papers
and semesters devoted to _Absalom, Absalom_, and the theme
if collapsed to a bumper sticker is "Would you want your
sister to marry one?"

Destiny reified goes about her business on ordinary streets...
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:17:48 PDT
From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Changes, Rooshians

UP> I agree with Sonia; congratulating the New Yorker for putting
UP> a woman at the helm (any woman) is tokenism.  When will people
UP> be judged for what they do, instead of what group (men, women,
UP> whites, blacks, Indians,...) they belong to?


Tina Brown is in place because she is able to take charge of
even a loser publication and make a winner out of it.  She
is quite simply able to sell magazines.  The publishers and
advertisers of that or any other magazine are not making a
gender statement in this or any other appointment.


My original question involved the trepidation by various
readers.  (Interesting to note the uproar over the changing
of the guard at New Yorker just previous to this one was by
the long-time writers of New Yorker; those who went back to
Ross and Thurber.) I read two parts squeamish angst due to a
record of antic celebrity-laden gloss and one part secret
silent recoiling at the term `woman editor'.


It isn't really my own formulation, you know.  Most recently,
Susan Faludi wondered about how a female hotel tycoon with
no more ego really than The Donald wound up on the cover of
the `Rhymes-With-Rich' Newsweek issue, and she catalogued some of
the really rotten cases of pop journalism lying-by-statistics in
the seventies (and still today, if you can believe!) which passed
out trends in those days like Popcorn, while near unanimous
opprobrium came down on the head of Shere Hite, whose methods
were at least as sound as Time's.



Maybe you're right, and we would all be wringing our
hands just as piteously if the honcho at Vanity Fair
had been named Tim Brown.  It could all be my imagination,
and gender never played a hand.  It may be just a
statistical freak of nature that this publication
and practically all other non-`Women' mags have
always been run by men.
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:30:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: my syllabus

That's *two* female authors, Jeremy.  I'm aware of the problem.

mm
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:17:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Trollope

Ken, I understand your quibble about every century since the 13th being
described as that of the rise of the middle class, but the 17th century
is unquestionably the one, especially if we're talking about Britain,
the conjunction of middle class prosperity and the leisure time necessary for
reading big novels, and the democratic aspirations which permit the inherent
dialogism of novels finally to triumph over the strictures of a poetry-reading
public whose tastes had been fashioned in the knowledge that poetry had been
written for them, for their privileged class (I should have said class all
along rather than "public.").

mbmnotmccoll
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:12:12 EST
From:         Entropy Warrior <AUSBROOK@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: What the Dickens

>Wilde, not Shaw.

Show me.

-Mka
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:50:00 EDT
From:         Jane L Hyde <EILDONS@UNC.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Trollope

In the discussion of Byatt's *Possession* no one so far has mentioned
what to me was one of the most delicious aspects of this engrossing
book, and that is its subtle eroticism.  She shows how erotic re-
straint can be.  The scene with our two modern lovers-to-be sitting
side by side on the lower bunk of the train compartment, NOT touching,
is much more delectable than many other scenes in other books involving
bodily contact.
    On the topic of reading speed, I will just add my opinion, though it
's not new, that one has to vary speed according to type of text and to
one's purposes.  As a child I devoured books and remembered little.
But I did become a lover of and student of literature and have pur-
posely slowed down.  In fact I reread much more often than before
(something you learn the power of when you study literature and
have to reread) -- both whole books and just parts.  I have
learned to slow down to savor wonderful passages and that poetry
should be read aloud.  On the other hand, some dense non-fiction
works can only be understood when read fast.  --Jane Hyde
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:08:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Trollope

Well, if you don't see that *Ulysses* and *To the Lighthouse* and
*Invisible Man* and 100 Years of Solitude* and *If on a Winter's Night a
Traveler* and *Beloved* and *Sula* are advanced in substance quite as much
as style that's really a darned shame, 'cause they are, and the comparison
with the vagaries of late Roman drama makes me virtually retch.

A virtual mess,
mbmnotmccoll
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:38:14 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gibson/Sterling

Rumor has it, from a good friend of mine who
is a good friend of Gibson's, that it was
Bruce Sterling who helped launch Gibson's
career.  They are buddies.

Perhaps, then, Gib was doing his friend a
favor.

                 -Tim
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