From: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Reply-To: zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:29:20 GMT

In article <69231@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>In article <1992Sep28.151949.13081@linus.mitre.org> zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell) writes:
>|In article <68990@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>|>    Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
>|>       have himself appointed king and then to return.
>|>    Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
>|>       'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'
>|>
>|>He is coming back, but this has not happened, yet.
>
>|So you're telling us that these four words buried in a parable undo all
>
>Not the four little words, but the whole parable and the whole of the
>detailed illustrations Jesus used.  Maybe I should have included the 
>whole parable, but I didn't - here is the introduction with the above
>scripture, agian:
>
>   Luke 19:11   While they were listening to this, HE WENT ON TO TELL THEM A
>     PARABLE, BECAUSE HE WAS NEAR JERUSALEM AND THE PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE
>     KINGDOM OF GOD WAS GOING TO APPEAR AT ONCE.
>   Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
>     have himself appointed king and then to return.
>   Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
>     'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'
>
>Read the rest of it, if you'd like and then comment.

I did read it before I posted.  Because I didn't read into it what you
wanted you have made a personal attack against me.  I'm stating that
the parable IN NO WAY disputes that Jesus will return within a
generation.  Where are the words in this parable that undo Jesus'
direct statements?

>|of the things that Jesus clearly and explicitly stated about his second
>|comming?  Can you tell me where I can get my secret Jesus decoder ring
>
>Read it yourself.  Christians are challenged to study and be a good 
>steward of the word (the Bible.)

I did read it.  Do you mean to say that even the most stupid Christian
knows the bible better then me?  I especially liked the way it ended:

   But those mine enemies which would not that I should
   reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (LUKE 19:27)

Rather than attempting to attack my character, wouldn't you rather
be able to slay me in person?

>|so I too can undo anything Jesus said using other unrelated parts of
>|the Bible!  I'm sorry, but this parable IN NO WAY disputes Jesus saying
>|he will return in the lifetime of some who knew him.
>
>Additionally, you can look in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and see where Jesus 
>tells of many events to happen before His return. 

If you had REALLY READ my original post, you would see I included quotes
from both Matt 24 and Luke 21.  Read the rest of it before you comment.

Really, your claims that I need to read more are unfounded and childish.

>The fall of Jerusalem,
>many dreadful signs and wonders in heavens and on earth, false prophets 
>and false christs, famines, wars, rumors of wars, etc, BEFORE the Son
>of Man returns in the clouds with great glory, with angels and the
>trumpet call of God.

All happening within the lifetime of some present.  Yes, I provided
references to this.

>In John 14, Jesus says he is going away to prepare a place for us and
>he said if he went away he would come back for us.  Again, some 
>period of time was to elapse.

John dosen't contain reference to the quick return.  Could that be
because everyone who knew Jesus was already dead by the time it was
written?  Is there some editing of Jesus' words here?

>|Jesus clearly LIED!  Your attempt to use an unrelated parable to tell
>
>Unrelated only because you obviously didn't read it.

Come on Richard!  Rather than attacking me, why don't you just tell me,
in simple English (no big words please) exactly how this parable undoes
Matthew 24:34 and the other verses I posted.

>|us what Jesus REALLY meant to say is obvious desperation!  If Jesus
>
>No there are many passages relating to the delay, as I've mentioned
>above.  Paul, in 2 Thess 2, even says don't worry about some report of
>the day already happening.  For the faith of many was shaken because
>of this false report.  

I agree it hasen't happened.  What's your point?

>Paul says the Day of the Lord and our gathering
>to Him will not occur until the rebellion occurs (see Matthew 24 and Luke 21,
>along with Daniel.)  Many events still have to take place.

I read this and provided verses from these chapters in my post.

>|were really a God, it would also be sacrilegious to deny the things he
>|said clearly and on several occasions. So, it's fortunate for you Jesus
>|is not God!  I don't have Kent's list, but I'm including my own list,
>
>I guess you threw out the first chapter of John, where Jesus was with God,
>was God, and was made flesh and dwelt among us, huh?  It seems that
>Jesus is God.  Even in the OT, the promise of the Messenger of the
>Covenant, with the forerunner John the Baptist, says that God himself
>is coming and we see this in the man Jesus the Christ. (Malachi 3)
>Even Luke 2:10-11, where the angel tells of Jesus' birth, says that
>the angel proclaims that that day the Savior was born in the city 
>of David [Jerusalem] - and that He [Jesus] is Christ, the Lord.

Yes, you've convinced me!  Because the Bible says so, it must be
true! :)  I did read it by the way!

>|just to demonstrate the number of verses you have to try to undo:
>
>I submit to you that Jesus (God in human flesh) being here on the 
>earth was and is the understanding of the kingdom of God/heaven
>being at hand, per all of the verses you cited.   
                    ^^^
This includes sun and moon darkened, stars falling from heaven, powers
of the heavens shaken, sign of Son of man in heaven, all tribes mourn,
seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, angels sounding
trumpet, and gathering of the elect (Matt 24:29-31)?  All this before
the generation passes (Matt 24:34)?  I think the Bible and the history
books missed all these events happening.

>Peter was with
>Jesus in Matthew 16-17, when Jesus said some standing here will not
>taste death before you see the son of man coming in 'his' kingdom.

So, he is the "generation" that will not pass and the "some" who will
still live?  Jesus really stretches words here.  I really would like my
Jesus decoder ring so we can both read the same hidden meanings!

>Peter tells us in 2 Peter 1:16-18 that he did see Jesus glorified on the
>mountain (Matthew 17 - the transfiguration.)  There was a change
>at that time, but the Kingdom being culminated hasn't happened, yet.

Why do you keep trying to convince me that it hasen't happened yet?
This is obvious even to Christians! :)

-- Steve
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