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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:09:08 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      The weather around here

> The point is that the "chaff to wheat" ratio around here
> seems to be a little high, the volume is too large to sift through it
> all, and what little of value there is here is not worth the time it
> takes to find it.

Some of this is recent (not to say that there wasn't chaff before, though :)).
Until the last week or so, I'd been very much enjoying this mailing list,
despite occasional strong disagreements with other participants, because the
quality of the dialogue was much higher than is available in public forums.
Now, yes, it was perhaps not as free an exchange of ideas as, say,
talk.religion.misc, but that's not all bad--my vegetable garden is not as
free as a wild meadow, either, but it's still worth the effort.

In the last couple of weeks, the quality has started to take a dip.  Fred
Rump has gone from one of the more provocative members to pretty middle-of-
the-road.  People have started throwing insults around much more freely, and
debate has shifted from particular theological and spiritual issues to the
merits of Catholicism and Christianity themselves.  Arguments have gotten
both more polarized and less substantial.

While I do read a number of Usenet groups, I'm not too interested in a
"talk.religion.catholic."  I am still very interested in exploring
Catholicism and the things I both do and do not accept in it, but I am not
optimistic about this being a place to do that much longer.

Several people recently have dismissed the need for courtesy.  Well,
personally, I find courtesy rather useful.  If what I wanted to do was argue
for its own sake, I'd be reading talk.religion.misc.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:05:06 -0400
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Not about women priests, it's about changing rules

Steve,
Isn't the priest as a bridegroom just an analogy also? A marriage represents
a vow of love between two people. This love does not have to be sexual in
nature, and a woman could represent God's love towards man just as easily
as a man. God is God, humans is humans:-) Saying that a woman as a priest
would be a lesbian marriage is a cheap shot worthy of me:-)

Eric,
The issue of grape juice has been dicussed in our parish as an alternative
to the useof wine for our children and recovering AA's:-) There are some
in our parish that are as adamant about alcohol as you are of ordaining
women:-) I think we get around that "It just isn't" issue since everyone
does recieve a consecrated Host, so even if you don't drink the "real"
wine (blood) you have received communion. As for me, I don't like the
taste of wine anyway:-) Yeah, I know, no class:-)

Steve Creps,
Sorry guy, but then you've probably wanted to say that to me for some
time now anyway:-) my humor and writing style are perhaps lacking some
social graces:-) - J.J.
From: v5875bza@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Fatima:  warning or prediction
Date: 3 Oct 92 23:58:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

If I say simply, "Your house will burn down", then I am making
a prediction.  If I say, "Your house will burn down unless you
do such-and-such", I am not making a prediction, I am issuing
a warning.

Suppose that we are bound to accept what this Fatima text says.
We are not automatically bound to believe that a big war will happen
within the next ten years.  Why not?  Because pretty clearly it
is not a prediction but rather a warning.  If we are bound to
believe what the text says, then we are bound to believe that
a big war, etc. will happen _unless_ people repent.  But for all
we know, they will repent, or even have already repented.

Michael Gorman
Dept. of Philosophy
SUNY-Buffalo
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:16:38 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Miracle of the sun

(From Becka Sutton   )

I have never seen the miricle of the sun but while we were in Medjugorje a group
 of my friends spent the night on top of Krisevac (if you don't know that's a
 big hill
with a cross on top.
When the sun rose they say it turned from pink to white and moved around the
sky for approx. 10 minutes and then went back to exactly the same position and
turned back to the normal shade of the just risen sun.

God bless
Rebecca

ps.  It shocked one of the girls into returning to the church after six years
of being lapsed.
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:03:51 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      kneeling

On Sep 25, 12:20pm, "(Edward J. Branley)" wrote:
}
} Well, this position puts you at odds with the designers of almost every gothic
} cathedral in Europe.  What you call 'denial of kneelers' is not a denial.
}
} If you want to 'just DO,' that's fine.  So long as you realize that there is
} ample precedent for 'just doing it' different ways, I don't think anyone is
} going to take issue with you.  If you were to happen to live in a parish where
} the church doesn't have kneelers, then I don't think anyone would have a
} problem with you leading an effort to have them installed.  Making sweeping
} judgements about the builders of churches, or the congretations that frequent
} those churches, is indeed pointless.
}
} Obedience.  Ok, obedience to what?  Medieval churches didn't even have seats
 in
} many cases, much less kneelers.  Were all of those folks disobedient?
} Doubtful.  We've seen references here to religious communities who remain
} standing throughout the Mass.  I'm quite sure that the members of that
} community see themselves as obedient to their church and to their order.
} Obedience is hardly the issue here, and it is hardly your place to say that
} someone is 'disobedient,' IMHO.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Edward J. Branley)"

	[I would have cut down the above a bit but I think it's all pretty
relevant]

	As I think I pointed out in an earlier post, the requirement to
kneel during the Eucharistic prayer is an American requirement, not a
general one, since it is in the NCCB's appendix to the GIRM.  The GIRM
only requires kneeling duringthe consecration, which should be feasible
without kneelers for most people (except those in bad health, frail,
or just bad knees, that sort of thing).

	Secondly, *I* am not at odds with all these folks (or at least,
my possibly beingat odds isn't the issue).  The point is that they
are (to some extent depending on American/European) at odds with Church
teaching.

	It's important to remember that the Church doesn't teach
'thou shalt have kneelers' but rather, 'thou shalt kneel'.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
He was so narrow-minded he could see through a keyhole with both eyes.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 10:21:59 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: difference between vows & promises (was Re: Obedience;
              Paris

"(Raymond Lang)" <rex!lang> writes:

> In article <1992Sep27.155508.856@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel) writes:
>
> > they took such vows.  Maybe diocesan priests are not making vows but some
> other
> > kind of commitment that is not a vow?
>
> Exactly.  Diocesan (also called "secular") priests make _promises_, which
> is a commitment from which they can be released.  "Religious" priests
> (those belonging to an order) make _vows_, which are a lot harder to get
> out of should the need arise.
>
> Ray Lang
> lang@cs.tulane.edu

I always got the impression that the relationship between a parish
priest and his bishop was more along the lines of employer/employee,
where a religous had a much tighter relationship with his superior(s).
If a secular priest has a problem with something his bishop has told him
to do and decides to disobey, it's more like insubordination.  If a
religious decides to be insubordinate, he's also violating his vows.

In reality, the bishop's ways of bringing an insubordinate priest into
line normally don't extend beyond the diocese.  A religious could find
himself in a Haitian mission if he keeps annoying his superiors too
much...



|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
|Seashell Software                                UUCP:  rex!mintir!elendil|
|3508 North Woodlawn Avenue                          Compu$erve: 71237,2227|
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 10:25:42 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> "Re: Women are unclean" (Oct  3,
              3:03pm)

Jesus chose Peter as an Apostle.  Peter was married (Luke 4:38-39).
Therefore anyone not married is unqualified to be a priest, as Peter
was the rock on which the church was built.   B^)

Shalom,                         Len Howard
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Women are unclean
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:34:27 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco) writes:

> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>
> >What I saw was a lot of circumstantial evidence like 'so and so said this
> >and what it means is', 'Genesis is literal blah, blah, blah', 'it's a
> >tradition and life as we know it will end if we change tradition', 'Jesus
> >had a penis and so did the twelve apostles so it must be important', etc.
>
> >>    The Church says women can't be priests or altar servers. Period.
>
> >Oh, I see, it's the period thing, women are unclean. They obviously represen
> >what is dirty and icky in the world like menstruation, childbirth and sex.
>
> Hardly. The Church does not use this line of reasoning to defend its position
> that only men may be priests. Rather, the Church is merely adhering to the
> instructions laid out in Corinthians regarding women. The Church's present po
> you certainly have that choice.
>
> -ACF

Andrew, as Mister Rogers would say, "Can you say sarcasm?  Sure, I knew you
could."



>Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us<
>Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087<
From: gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Anne-Marie K. Gorman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: sex
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:32:00 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <BvGKv7.Ayo@acsu.buffalo.edu> v5875bza@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr) writes:

>words, I'd say that many young people in the Church today, at least in
>N America, have  n o  p r o b l e m  ignoring Church teachings on sexual
>ethics.  They aren't trying and failing, they aren't trying.  And this hard/so
>business makes it worse.  
>
>Am I being too cranky to suggest that we need stricter discipline?  If we

Maybe not, but stricter discipline is only a small part of the solution.
Imposing strict discipline now on sexual matters would be like imposing
strict toilet discipline on a 6-month-old.  OK, that's an exaggeration,
but still, most young people in N. America have never been seriously
expected to adhere to Church teaching on sexual morality.  Many of
their parents openly disregard it, losing your virginity is seen as a
sign of maturity, modesty is a hang-up instead of a virtue, etc. etc.

Simply to clamp down on them now would be unfair--they haven't had
the chance to develop the habit of chastity, and they can't be expected 
to do so overnight under threat of excommunication.  If they had been 
brought up in a family and a community and a society that held, or at
least upheld as the norm, Christian standards of behavior, and explained 
the reasons for them, then discipline now would seem more appropriate.

Obviously I think that parents have the huge responsibility to educate
their children on this (and other) matters, and to provide as much as
possible a community to support them.  I don't pretend to know what 
to do about people whose bringing up is essentially finished.

>Michael Gorman
>Benedictan Educated and doing just fine, thank you  8-)
         ^^
         Don't they teach spelling in Benedictine schools?  :-)

Anne-Marie Gorman



















-- 
===============================================================================
Anne-Marie K. Gorman          Sophie and Teresa (9 months old) are standing and
Human factors/ergonomics      cruising!  Time flies twice as fast when you're
University at Buffalo         having twice as much fun.
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From: dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu (Idbil Fubar)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: mysticism
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:49:29 GMT
Organization: UB

bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow) writes:

>>
>>Idbil Fubar

>This is the price we pay for having an open group.  Look at the name,
>for heaven's sake.  I Do Believe I Lie    Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition,
>would be my guess/interpretation.  I guess we could check with the sys-admin
>and find out who dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu really is.  dewind -- right.

You could of course ASK me too...

Patrick T DeWind
dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu
V077PW3W@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
ACSOPTD@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

Trust me...I exist.

(Fubar comes from my unfortunate alcoholic streak (I should work on that one of these days) and Idbil comes from a Queensryche song)
I have had many nicknames...This one will be as Ephemerial as the last.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:58:37 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Women are unclean

Gordan writes:
>	Well, I thought we had argued this pretty thoroughly before
>and I'm really too tired of it to start all over....

What I saw was a lot of circumstantial evidence like 'so and so said this
and what it means is', 'Genesis is literal blah, blah, blah', 'it's a
tradition and life as we know it will end if we change tradition', 'Jesus
had a penis and so did the twelve apostles so it must be important', etc.

>	The Church says women can't be priests or altar servers. Period.

Oh, I see, it's the period thing, women are unclean. They obviously represent
what is dirty and icky in the world like menstruation, childbirth and sex.

> GZ

- J.J. (don't take this as a personal flame, Gordon, some of us Catholics will
never grow tired of arguing for equality)
Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 09:09:15 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: mysticism

On Sun, 27 Sep 1992 06:51:49 GMT (Steven Otlowski) said:
>Chanting mantras
>Hmm
>That's always how the Rosary seemed to me.
>and I've been brought up Catholic.

Ah! Is that the secret?

I've never really understood the rosary. I've thought that repeating the
same prayer over and over again would make it hard to keep track of the
words of each prayer, and the leaders always want to rush right through
the prayers as if it were a race ("Hailmaryfullofgrace..."). I always
thought people were either being disrespectful by not considering the
words they were praying, or were treating the prayers as some kind of
magical tool. It seemed that their actions were implying that the number
of times a prayer was said was more important than the meaning someone
put into those prayers.

If, on the other hand, the rosary is similar to a mantra and serves to
clear the mind, then it makes more sense to me.

Is there anyone on the list who prays the rosary? If so, can you explain
what you're doing? Do you consider each word of the prayers you are
saying, or do you use the rosary as a tool for mediatation?

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Deacons
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 17:58:58 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:

>    On the call, I would have no problems discussing how the call might
> come to individuals, since this is a central part of our application
> letters, and I have told the story to many people.  I think it would
> help to ask specific questions....  Good topic for a thread.
>

BTW, thanks for the info.  Very helpful.  It does indeed appear that Deacons in
both Churches perform similar functions.

I think this is an interesting topic, since the more I think about it, the more
I think I'd make a good Deacon.  If there is indeed an age requirement in the
RCC, I've got some more time to think about it (I'm 33).

The one problem I have with determining whether or not this is a call to a
vocation is reconciling the concept of 'having my cake and eating it too.'  By
that I mean that I'm married and have a son.  I didn't want to become a priest
or brother (another possibility I considered strongly during college) because I
really saw myself as the type of person who would make a good parent.  I've
also always believed that a religious vocation and being a parent should not be
mutually exclusive.  I don't know how I would answer the charge that I just
want it both ways.

Since the RCC is experiencing a serious shortage of priests, particularly in
America, maybe I'm just part of the problem.  Maybe the Church is by excluding
me from a priestly vocation.  I'm not quite sure...





|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 11:19:32 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: A power vocation?

On Oct 1,  4:00pm, noao!URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM wrote:
} Subject: Re: A power vocation?
} Ed, I would like a specific example of what responsibility a woman priest
} could not perform (assuming they could be ordained). Your examples of
} sexism dealt with specific sexual organs and sexual feelings. I don't
} think you mean to imply that the vocation of a priest Requires these:-)
}-- End of excerpt from noao!URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM

	While this isn't addressed to me, I'll respond.  Steve Creps
wrote a while back (perhaps you missed it) that we believe a woman
cannot validly (i.e., actually) be ordained a priest.  Therefore it's
not a question of 'what responsibilities a woman priest could not
perform' at all, but of the fact that all the handwaving and speechwriting
in the world could not make a woman a priest in fact, regardless of
what we choose to call her.  Begging the question by asking us to
assume a woman could be ordained just won't do when that IS the
question.  Or, to put it another way, it's pretty pointless to argue
about what a woman could or couldn't do if she could be a priest since
we say it's not possible and you say it is.

	By the way, what's your scriptural basis for believing women
can validly be ordained as priests?

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Concentrate on security.
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:44:44 EDT
From:         "Patrick S. Golden" <pgolden@NHGS.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II/Rosary/Talbot
              "CATHOLIC@auvm.american.edu" at Sep 28, 92 6:16 pm

A single reply to several recent threads:

According to CATHOLIC@auvm.american.edu:
>
> the Catholic Church in the U.S. experienced its greatest period of growth,
> relative to the entire population, during the 1950's, the very decade
> preceding the changes of Vatican II.
> -ACF
>
I just finished a book called "Voices of Silence" (I forgot the
author's name...I'm better with titles than names), who
presents a compelling portrait of modern-day Trappists.  In
profiling many of those in the monastery, the author (and the
monks) credit the Second World War with creating a spiritual
crisis that led to an explosion of "vocations."  Unfortunately,
many of them were looking for something else.  Merton also
suggests the influence of WWII on the upsurge of Catholic
attendance.

On Rosaries:  Pax Christi in Erie, Pa. recently published a
meditation guide to the rosary written by Joan Chittister that
I would recommend.  Those who like their meditation to focus on
Catholic responses to current social ills will find it
particularly to their liking. (Where is Fred anyway?)

Finally, I want to thank this group for introducing me to the
music of John Michael Talbot.  Like a recent posting, I find
his music to reflect a deeply spiritual dimension of our
Catholic Christian tradition.

--
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             |
|Virginia Space Grant Consortium|
|Hampton, VA  23666             |
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       |
|-------------------------------|
--
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:18:31 -0400
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Must we talk about women priests?

Becka,
You are absolutely right. We shouldn't be talking about women priests,
we should be talking TO them:-) -J.J.
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:05:26 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Lay leadership of communion services

Nancy writes:
>We are also attempting to prepare the parish for lay leadership of prayer and
>communion services without a priest because the day is coming when our
>diocese will not have enough ordained male celibates to staff all the
>parishes and the people need to be prepared-

This is an interesting concept. Our parish has recently gone down to one
priest, however we do have a parishioner who is a deacon. Is there any
chance that the bishop could delegate his authority to a deacon to celebrate
the Mass. I suppose there is some rule about transubstantiation only occurring
with a priest or higher, but can this be modified or waivered under special
circumstances? Or am I blaspheming again:-) - J.J.