From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Subject: Re: Mischievous Child (3 YO)
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:38:32 GMT

Well, after having read several more follow up posts, I can't resist
commenting again.  I must say I've changed my opinion of what's going on
quite a bit.  I don't think Brit is hyperactive, suffering from "oppositional
disorder", or even really all that "difficult" a child.  I think this
is basically a personality conflict problem.  It sounds like Vivienne
and Kina have very simliar, laid-back & compatible personalities, but Brit is 
a fairly typical, mischievious, bright, 3 year old.  Mostly I agree with
Judy (anyone surprised?) but I do have a few other comments that might
be helpful.

In article <1992Aug11.221809.2215213@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>In article <4310176@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> poon@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Vivienne Poon) writes:
>>> I would suggest finding a good family therapist
>>> immediately...
>>
>>I thought about it sometimes when I got really irritated. But I hate the 
>>idea of a three year old under therapy. 
>
>But that is not what a family therapist does.  In family therapy the assumption
>is not that there is a 3 YO in need of help, but that there is a FAMILY in 
>need of help.  The problem isn't that one member is the wrong fit, but that

[... some stuff deleted for brevity ...]

>I would say your pediatrician is the first stop.  Set up an appointment without
>the kids, maybe, and talk about your concern.  See what the pediatrician 
>recommends.  

Yes, indeed.  The purpose of therapy in your case would be to learn
new coping strategies & give every family member new behaviors to work
on.  Its really a learning experience.

>
>>
>>We give her plenty of rewards and praises for however tiny good effort and
>>accomplishment she makes. But sometime I notice this puts her in a stronger
>>bargaining position. She will come up and say "I put all the books back on
>>the shelf, Mom." "Good job. I am so glad that you did it." "Do I deserve
>>a reward?" "Sure, I'll take you to the park later." "No, I want a candy."
>>"No, no candy today." "How about watching mouse detective?" "No, you know
>>there's no TV on weekdays." "OK, you take me to Great America on Saturday."
>>The negotiation could go more and more ridiculous. To her good rewards 
>>like going to the park and reading her a book are not attractive enough
>>because she knows I will do them anyway. Pleasing behavior deserves something
>>off limits. 
>
>This is a very important part of your child's development.  Your child is
>SUPPOSED to act this way.  Your job is to keep the limits exactly as they are
>done" to go out and do something.  I take every "you can't do that" as a

[... stuff & examples deleted for brevity ...]

Well, I think Judy is missing a bit of the point here.  Actually, what is
happening is that you are misusing a reward system.  Praise is always in
order as long as its sincere, but rewards (candy,etc) needs to be on an
irregular schedule.  Brit is right that things you normally would do 
irregardless of her behavior are *not* rewards.  You are being dishonest
suggesting that doing something you would do anyway is a reward.  Be lavish
with the praise so there is no question Brit *knows* how pleased you are.
But when she says, "Do I deserve a reward?" & you don't think she does
(and for behavior you expect *all* the time generally you should *not*
be rewarding *everytime*).  Say something like, "No, I don't think so.
I'm very pleased you did XXX, but I really expect you to do that because
that's part of your responsibility -- just like I take you to the park
to play because that's part of being a good Momie."  

I also find your use of candy inconsistent.  On the one hand you say
its something "off limits" on the other you say you`ve used it as a
reward because Brit likes it so much.  I'm sure Brit find this attitude
confusing.  You need to decide what you will use for rewards.

You also need to develop the concept of irregular rewards.  When Sabrina
asks for things (sometimes as a reward, sometimes because she wants them)
I generally pay close attention to what she wants, & then tell her
"Maybe, we'll see -- sometime."  Then SOMETIMES I DO.  About 1 time out of
8 - 30 requests.  It makes for a lot of asking, but once Sabrina is 
convinced I've got the information, she moves on to the next topic.

[...Stuff about sugar deleted -- I basically agree with Judy ...]

The following is, I think a good example of fairly normal 3 year
(& 4 year old) behavior.  I would not think of it as anything
like "difficult" or "challenging" or even really "a battle".
Sabrina does stuff like this all the time.  There's no big deal
unless you let the situation deteriorate to a battle of wills.
(I have to remind Donovan from time to time -- "Hey, remember
you are the adult.  You are in control.")

So here's an example of what I'd do differently.
>>
>>............ She never takes instructions smoothly. It's like she is always
>>trying to outsmart you adults, parents and teachers, and push to the limit
>>to see what she can get away with. When she determines on something, she must 
>>win.  This happened yesterday. She spreaded Lego all over the floor. When it's
>>time to clean up she came up of tons of excuses. I then said "ask your sister
>>nicely and she will help you." So she did. Her sister Kina came to help.
>>After a few minutes Kina yelled "Mom, I'm not just helping her, I'm doing

Ok.  I think getting the sisters to work together is a good move.  However,
I bet Brit cannot resist hoaxing her "very good" and "very smart" (the
qualities you seem to see in Kina) and very serious (I suspect) big
sister.  You owe it to your older daughter to help her develop some
coping skills with this sort of situation.  A personality like you describe
for Kina will probably just attract all sorts of practical joker types.

So step number 1.  Ask Kina if she's told Brit of her complaint (probably
not) nicely before yelling for you -- Kina needs to complain to Brit first.  
If Brit continues taking advantage & not helping then Kina needs to tell Brit 
she *will help* but she won't do even *most* of the work & Kina should 
*stop* helping.

Basically, I think you stepped in *way* too soon.

>>all the work." I had to step in. "OK, Britt, I'll help you. I'll do one,
>>and you do one." She agreed. So I did one, she did one, and I did one.

Why did you offer to help so easily?  I'd restate that the leggos are
Brit`s problem.  Let her ask you for help.  Establishing a sense of
responsibility for the task is probably one of the most useful things
you can do to get Brit to do things like this.
 
>>She jumped up and said "Oh, I forgot something and I'll be right back."
>>She bounced off to search for a piece of perhaps nonexisting Lego all over
>>the house, leaving me sitting on the floor wondering what to do next.

Why do you let her get away with this?  You are the adult, you should
be in control here.  Why don't you say, "No, first you pick up those 
red ones right there!"  Or even, "well let me know if you want help 
picking up these leggos", and then walk away.  Or maybe you can say,
"What is it you forgot? ... "Well, if you want me to help you that 
will just have to wait until we're done."   Come on, you cannot allow
a 3 year old to out think you!  What will you do when she's a teenager?

>>When incidences like this happen multiple times a day, I am not amused.
>>

Too bad, a sense of humor about this stuff is very helpful in keeping 
your sanity & sense of perspective in place.
	
>
>Good, this indicates that she is DESPERATE to lose.  In this case, the obvious
>choice is to stop picking up the Legos.  Go do something else that doesn't

Well, I don't think Brit is all that DESPERATE.  I think she's just seeing
what she can get away with (apparently about anything she can think of).
She *will* be desparate if she keeps winning.  Finding your Mom can get
taken so easily is really frightening to a child that age.  

[...]
>picking up your Legos".  You MUST NOT PICK THEM UP WITHOUT HER.  And she must
[...]
Or, you can warn her that "Mr. Gunny Sack" will get them.  Then with 
adequate warning and her watching, put the offending leggos in a sac
(you might want to use a special sac with like a little face on it)
and put the leggos away.  Really far away.  Brit may never get to 
play with them again -- you need a penalty period of at least a month
to make this work.  Unlike Judy's method, you won't have to trip
all over leggos for weeks.

A good family therapist can help you work out methods and reward systems
that you can administer reasonably well & will work well for your family.

>
>If it is any help, my oldest sounds like your youngest.  And there were weeks
>in which every single day was one long battle.  But when I finally accepted that
>this was good and healthy and I must not let my desire for peace, rest, and all
>those things parents don't get enough of keep me from doing the job I had to
>do, I made significant progress.  Soon there would be an entire afternoon in
>which we didn't have a single battle.  Then a day would go by.  Sometimes we
>can go for 3 whole days now.  

Gee -- I never thought of those things as "battles" -- I just figured it
was a part of being a Mom & having a normal kid.  If I thought of these
episodes as Sabrina being "difficult" or "doing battle" I guess everything
would be harder.   I always associate a spat of limit testing incidents
with (a) Sabrina is extra tired, sick or growing, or (b) Sabrina is going
through a cognitive development spurt. (Read that she though of a whole
bunch of *new* things to try.)

>
>>> She is independent,
>>> self-sufficient, inventive, detirmined, and if she can discover appropriate
>>> goals, I suspect that you will see something spectacular indeed.
>>
>>That's what we keep on telling ourselves. We are waiting for the day to
>>come. We also know that she wouldn't go anywhere without patience, 
>>concentration and hardworking.
>>
>
>Don't just wait for the day.  Do the job she is asking you to do, which to
>me sounds like setting and keeping firm limits.   Make them few and make them
>firm.  That is what has helped me the most.
>

Well, yes, you shouldn't wait.  But, really, I always thought that it
was a lot more fun and a lot less work than Vivienne is making out here.
I enjoy (usually) being challenged.  I'd think there was something wrong
with a child that didn't test limits pretty consistently.  That sort
of passivity would be worrisome to me.

>
>I hope this helps.  I really feel like you are posting things that I need to
>remind myself of every day.  It is so hard.  But I've seen it work enough to
>believe it really WILL work completely.  
>
>-- 
>Judy Leedom Tyrer
>
>"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake

Also, I recommend the book  _Siblings Without Rivalry_  (sorry I cannot
think of the authors, maybe someone on the net will provide the info).
It is a very practical book with lots of good examples.

Lastly (assuming anyone actually reads this far), what kind of preschool
are you using, Vivienne?  If its a montessori school, or a program that has a
lot of structure, you could simply have Brit in the wrong school.  
Methods that require a lot of stucture simply do not work for most 
children.  When it works -- like perhaps it did for Kina -- it works
quite well.  When the structured environment isn't a good match, you've
got *big* problems.  I'd suggest a traditional pre-school environment
with lots of emphasis on social development and a lot of unstructured
play time.  

Elise.
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