From: miller_jh@cubldr.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Before you reply to Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS VS DUPED CHRISTIANS
Date: 13 Nov 92 15:48:23 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder


In article <BxMnFo.A24@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v462etnn@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (David L Anderson) writes:
> In article <BxMI8B.6xB@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes...
>>Before replying to McElwaine's post, check this posting on t.r.m. out.  I
>>strongly doubt he's for real.  (Either that, or the acid just hit.) 
>> 
>>Once again, more evidence for state-sponsored Lithium handouts:
>> 
>>In:<1992Nov11.205728.2285@cnsvax.uwec.edu>
>>>                          CONTRADICTIONS about God
> 
> [much wacko stuff deleted]
> 
>>>                                   Robert E. McElwaine
>>>                                   B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
>                                      ^^^^^^^^
> Maybe they gave him the degree to get him off their campus!
> I wonder if it could be revoked for severe loss of rational
> logic.  Then again, maybe the acid did just hit.
> 
> David Anderson



//////O.K., A LOT OF GOOD SEMI-STUFF HERE, AND AT THIS POINT NOT EVEN A CLEARLY
DEFINED SET OF PARAMETERS AS TO OUR DISCUSSION/DEBATE. ON SUCH A PLATFORM OF
QUICKSAND WE CAN SURELY DANCE TILL WE DROWN!
I'M JUST VAGUELY RECALLING SOME OF YOUR POINTS SO IF I HIT OR MISS, WATCH YOUR
BATTLESHIP!
ARE YOU GRANTING AN EXISTENCE TO SPIRIT OR SOUL? IN SOME OF YOUR ARGUMENTS YOU
SEEMED TO SUGGEST IT, WHICH IS THE CRUX I THINK OF THE WHOLE 'THEIST/A-THEIST'
ARGUMENT. IF SPIRIT AND/OR EXTRA-MATERIAL MANIFESTATIONS ARE GRANTED THEN "WE"
ARE 'MERELY' ARGUING ABOUT THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF "GOD" (ADMITTEDLY AN
ARGUMENT THAT HAS SET MANY, MANY THEISTS AT ONE ANOTHER IN SENDING EACH OFF TO
THEIR RESPECTIVE HEAVENS AND "OUR" RESPECTIVE HELLS!) 
IF NOT, THEN COMES THE "FUN"....
I SUGGESTED THE NUETRINO AS AN EXAMPLE OF A 'REAL' PARTICLE THAT VIRSTUALLY
"ISN'T"! I WILL EXPAND THAT FURTHER AS AN INDICATION AS TO WHY A PHYSICAL
'PROOF' OF SPIRIT MAY BE IMPOSSIBLE, AND THAT ON THOSE GROUNDS A 'DISPROOF' IS
ULTIMATELY FUTILE. (BESIDES, "IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE"; 'DEEP
THOUGHT' MAY GIVE US GOD'S PHONE NUMBER, BUT HE CAN'T SAY "HE AIN'T SO", ONLY
THAT "I DON'T KNOW!") 
ANYWHO, THE NUETRINO WAS FAR FROM 'PROVEN' FOR ALMOST 4 DECADES. OF THE 4
KNOWN FORCES OF NATURE IT INTERACTS ONLY THROUGH THE WEAK NUCLEAR FORCE, MAKING
IT VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DETECT. (QUADRILLIONS PASS BEFORE ONE INTERACTS) MY
EXAMPLE THEREFOR IS THAT BASICALLY ONLY THINGS OF "LIKE SUBSTANCE" INTERACT
AND/OR ARE DETECTABLE. IF SPIRIT is AN ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT "ELEMENT" THEN
WHAT WE CALL "MATERIAL" (WHICH, FACE IT! IS 99.999998% 'EMPTY' SPACE!) THE
'FACT' THAT IT CAN'T BE DETECTED OR PROVEN PHYSICALLY IS LESS THEN MEANINGLESS.
E.G.; "I PUT OUT 10,000 ICE CREAM ONES AND NO NUETRINOS WERE STUCK IN THEM,
THEREFOR NUETRINOS DON'T EXIST" WOULD BE MEANINGLESS. WITH SPIRIT THERE MAY NOT
EVEN BE THE "ENERGY DEFICIT" THAT 'REQUIRED NUETRINOS TO BE INVENTED TO
EXPLAINIT. (A BIT OF CIRCULAR LOGIC ON THE PART OF FERMI AND DIRAC, BUT THEY DID
WIND UP BEING "RIGHT") 

PRESSING THIS 'POINT' FURTHER I WOULD THEREFOR POSTULATE THAT SPIRIT IS
DETECTABLE ONLY BY SPIRIT, AND THE EVIDENCE AND PROOF REQUIRED WOULD HAVE TO BE
'ANECDOTAL' SINCE ONLY EACH INDIVIDUALS SPIRIT IN HIMSELF COULD DETECT SPIRIT
AT ALL! (HERE "BELIEF" WOULD BE ALL, WOULDN'T IT? SINCE ONE CAN HARDLY ACCEPT
EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING THEY ARE CERTAIN DOESN'T EXIST EVEN IF THEY THEMSELVES
ARE THE PROOF) IN THAT VEIN IS WHY AND WHERE I POSTULATE THE "GOD INSTINCT" AS
AN INDICATOR THAT MAYHAPS THERE does EXIST A SPIRIT/GOD/SUPER-MATERIAL
MANIFESTATION IN A GREATER REALITY. I.E.; THE INSTINCT FOR HUNGER IS SUPPORTED
BY THE EXISTENCE OF REAL FOOD. THE INSTINCT FOR SEX IS SUPPORTED BY THINGS TO
FUCK. THEREFOR AN "INSTINCT FOR GOD" STRONGLY IMPLIES THAT THERE MAY BE AN
OBJECTIVE "GOD" IT ADDRESSES. THAT THERE ARE 9 BILLION NAMES FOR GOD ISN'T AS
IMPORTANT AS THE 'FACT' THAT GOD IS NAMED at all. (THERE ARE 9 BILLION THINGS
TO EAT AS WELL, SOME DELICIOUS AND SOME GROSS DEPENDING ON OUR SENSITIVITIES,
BUT ALL REAL, AND ALL 'FOOD' NONETHELESS)
THAT THIS 'INSTINCT' IN TURN EXISTS IS SUPPORTED BY THE REALITY THAT NO HUMAN
CULTURE IS WITHOUT some CONCEPT OF GOD/SPIRIT/EXTRA-MATERIAL MANIFESTATIONS OF
'REALITY'. IF SOME OTHER 'INSTINCT' OR COMBINATION OF INNATE HUMAN TRAITS WERE
OPERATING HERE THERE WOULD BE/SHOULD BE MANY CULTURES WITHOUT any SUCH
CONCEPTS, INSEAD OF all CULTURES. (WHY DEVELOP A CONCEPT INVOKING INVISIbLE,
UNVERIFIABLE ASPECTS TO 'EXPLAIN THE UNKNOWN' UNLESS THAT INVIIBLE,
UNVERIFIABLE ASPECT is THE INSTINCT? INDEED, COMFORT AND EXPLANATION ALONE
SEEM INSUFFICIENT SINCE MANY RELIGIONS ARE FAR FROM COMFORTABLE AND THEIR
EXPLANATIONS FAR FROM SIMPLE.