HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steppe@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Top Changwatchai)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: More on scoring in text adventures (Zork I SPOILER)
Date: 21 Aug 92 07:32:02 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.int-fiction
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Aug18.180241.14988@news.uit.no> roarf@stud.cs.uit.no (Roar Foshaug) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.155932.26491@wam.umd.edu>, dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:
>|> The theory that having multiple solutions to a single problem makes the
>|> game more realistic is interesting.  I don't think it's been really
>|> tested to date.  Can anyone think of a text adventure where many
>|> puzzles can be solved in several ways?
>
>Well, simply by allowing different tools to be used for the same things, the
>player will can choose between different routes though the game collecting
>different tools. Mostly, such multi-solutions to puzzles will only be spotted
>by the player afterhand, when the game has been played over again with
>different choices (ignoring the fact that most players will work on a
>number of saved versions of the game, trying new solutions to earlier saved
>ones and so on)...
>
>Roar
>
>-- 
>Roar Foshaug                                      (roarf@stud.cs.uit.no)
>Department of Computer Science
>University of Tromsoe                             'oe' is '\o{}' in Tex
>N-9000 TROMSOE, NORWAY                            'OE' is '\O{}' in Tex

Well, Infocom always claimed to have multiple solutions to puzzles, although
their adventures weren't loaded with this kind of thing.  One example that
springs to mind is from Zork I:  at one point, you need to cross a dammed [sic]
lake, which you can do by touching a mirror on one side.  This zaps you over to
another mirror on the other side, where you can continue exploring.  However,
there is also a treasure buried beneath the lake, so you actually have to
drain the lake to get the treasure (which, incidentally, also allows you to
cross the lake without using the mirrors at all).

This is a fair example of a puzzle that has more than one solution, although
only one is ultimately correct.  I sort of like this idea, at least from a
puzzle-solver's perspective:  not only do you have to find a solution, but
you must find the best one.

This kinda ties in with the idea of giving hints to the player to indicate
progress (as opposed to a point system).  Finding a non-optimal solution to
a puzzle can allow the player to discover clues to find the best solution.
In the above puzzle, for instance, a book found across the lake may hint that
a treasure is buried beneath the lake (Zork I didn't do this, of course).
Thus using the mirrors can provide clues about draining the lake.

Top




-- 
steppe@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
"I'm gonna live forever or die trying."
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventures
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:19:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In an earlier article, I write:
>dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) starts us thinking:
>>  [ . . . . ]
>>	3. Make sure that all information given at the ends of information
>>	   puzzles is randomly generated.
>>  [ . . . . ]
>
>To adress your particular concern - I think (3) is the optimum solution.
>I am pretty sure some of the later Infocom games took this approach -
>in fact I know HHGTTG did (geting the right tool to open the hatch).

On re-reading the origininal article, it occurs to me that what you mean
by "randomly generated" is not what I mean - my interpretation is rather
more like "randomly selected from amongst several pre-generated answers".
-- 
John Francis                                johnf@apollo.hp.com
The world can be divided into two classes :-
 those who divide people into two classes, and those who don't.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: aph@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Al Hunt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Original idea? Was Alternatives to scoring in...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 09:20:53 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Netters,
 
I just got what I think is an original idea that would solve this scoring 
problem.  It is a technique used in film and tv.
 
How about having the adventurer filling out a diary or log book.  This 
could be controlled by the player (ie "Update the Diary" command), or 
done at a scheduled time (ie Just before the adventurer goes to sleep).
 
Example:
>Sleep
 
You find a comfortable spot, and begin to fill out your diary prior to a 
much needed rest.
 
Dear Diary,
I am really pleased with myself today!  Not only did I find the golden 
fleece, but managed to solve a puzzle written on the side of a well!  If 
I can keep progressing at this rate, I will have the Crown in my grasp in 
no time!
 
---
 
This sort of idea does not distract from the game.  The feeling of the 
adventurer doing the solving is there.  Subtle hints could be given:
 
Dear Diary,
I finally got the golden fleece.  I am feeling a little uneasy about 
throwing in that pit.  I think I should have kept it after all.
 
---

Well, that is a little blatent, but you get the idea.

Speling is my fort, eh?
Al Hunt

Al Hunt              aph@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.int-fiction:638 rec.games.programmer:3425
From: luit1@wsinfo11.info.win.tue.nl (Wim Jansen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: More on scoring in text adventures
Date: 14 Aug 92 12:26:31 GMT
Reply-To: luit1@info.win.tue.nl
Followup-To: rec.arts.int-fiction

Really, this thread is getting way long. Ah, what the hell...

Scoring is not that difficult, provided we view the game as a directed
graph, ie. no going back (in time). Each arc represents a road (not) taken
or a puzzle (un)solved. The score for taking that road/solving that puzzle
is the 'weight' of the arc. The hiscore is reached by choosing the the
'optimal' path in the graph. Some choices may lead to death or disaster,
some to completing the game but not necessarily a glorious victory...

I think this can be applied to all sorts of games, though the 'length' of
an arc (ie. playtime) may vary considerably throughout different gametypes.

Designing a program to fit this scoring mechanism, would lead to a
'programmed instruction' type of game in case of (text)adventures. As a
result most of the program would not be played in a single session.
This has a certain appeal, right ?
Consequently, developing game would be more tedious, so a game migth end up
costing more... But, hey, it would be worth money !

Just a thought, Wim.
-- 
======================================================================
=         -- Another Key-bored Genius gets Mouse-trapped --          =
=        luit1@info.win.tue.nl ( in real life: W.M. Jansen )         =
======================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventures
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 20:39:29 GMT

dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:

>Making the game scored creates quite a few subtle problems.  One is the
>question of whether or not you should be able to finish the game
>without getting the maximum possible score.  Interestingly enough,
>Adventure did *not* reqiure you to get all the points to win.  Did 
>Zork?  Did most Infocoms?  I really don't remember.

Depends on what you call *win*. Do you win when you meet the friendly
elves in Adventure? Or do you win when you get that last, blasted point,
the one that drove you to your wit's end? The latter is winning to some folk -
it shows they've *completely* plumbed the sordid depths of the game, and
the programmer's grungy soul. For that sort of player, score is everything.
--
"I forsee that you will meet a king, the father of the beautiful Princess
 Plote DeVice; and he will insist that you rescue her from the keep of the
 infamous Duke, Cared Bored Vilan."   "Can we kill the DM now?"   "No."
smayo@wang.com
Xref: sparky rec.arts.int-fiction:644 rec.games.programmer:3454
From: steppe@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Top Changwatchai)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Victory conditions (was: Alternatives to score in text adventures)
Date: 16 Aug 92 11:54:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.int-fiction

Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Keywords: 

In article <1992Aug13.184137.7579@newshost.lanl.gov> jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
>In article <BsxDH9.Mvn@rice.edu>, amitp@owlnet.rice.edu (Amit Jayant Patel) writes:
>|> [...]
>|> In a game, though, it's nice to explore everything --- if you were trying to
>|> encourage people _not_ to explore everything, then why spend time writing
>|> those "side dishes"?
>
>Well, I don't.  As I said, I like strategic games rather than puzzles.
>I find those "side dishes" irritating - in my own games or someone
>else's.  This is not a criticism, different people have different
>tastes and mine aren't drawn by arbitrary puzzle games (I've never
>been patient enough to win conventional Zork-type adventure games,
>for example, their arbitrary puzzles don't interest me).
>
>-- 
>J. Giles

I'm not sure I understand you.  What do you mean by "strategic games"?  I've
always viewed adventure games ("interactive fiction" as Infocom calls it) as
being based on puzzles, as opposed to computer role-playing games (like
Ultima or Wizardry) or war games.

When I refer to "puzzles," though, I don't mean sterile puzzles like the
12-ball problem (which is very interesting in its own right); I refer to
puzzles that take advantage of the adventure game setting:  you have a bunch
of stuff to pick up and use, a bunch of people to talk to, a bunch of skills
to exploit, and goals that may or may not be clearly defined.  Take Zork III,
for example.  While in some ways it was aesthetically pleasing, there simply
wasn't as much atmosphere as, for example, Planetfall.  The puzzles were set
up in linear order (you had to solve one before moving on to the next), which
made them easy and which gave the sense that the player was solving the
puzzles, rather than the adventurer solving them (if that makes any sense).

Top


Xref: sparky rec.arts.int-fiction:634 rec.games.programmer:3405
From: dmaustin@bonk.sun.com (Darren Austin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventures
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:37:16
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
	<1992Aug13.164321.28499@wam.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bonk
In-reply-to: dmb@wam.umd.edu's message of Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:43:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.164321.28499@wam.umd.edu> dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:

} adam@owlnet.rice.edu (Adam Justin Thornton) writes:
} >I don't see why it would be terribly hard to have flags indicating
} >whether or not you've solved the puzzle for each given puzzle; you're 
} >probably going to have less than 300 such puzzles even in a very large
} >game; if each flag is set as a bit in a long status string, I don't see
} >why this is a problem.

} It's not that it's hard or an implementation problem, it's just that
} it's tedious and a pain.  Also it seems like the time required to come
} up with creative excuses (IMHO "You're just guessing the password!" is
} too lame) could be better spent on other things.

I think the best solution to this problem is the one that Meretzky used in
most of his later games.  That was to have a random choice out of a given
set.  For example the password would be randomly picked out of a set, say
"xyzzy", "plugh", "yoho", "zot".  If the player has never seen the password
in this session, then no matter what he tries for the password it will
fail.  This forces the player to go through the path that reveals the
password.  This falls into the category of trying to hide the "scoring"
problem from the player.  Plus it adds a little variety to the game.  It is
more work to code, but I think it works pretty well.

--Darren

--
Darren Austin          | Enough with safe and sane,
SunTech		       | it's time for dumb and dangerous!
darren.austin@sun.com  |  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: amitp@owlnet.rice.edu (Amit Jayant Patel)
Subject: Re: Victory conditions (was: Alternatives to score in text adventures)
Reply-To: amitp@owlnet.rice.edu
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 13:58:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.233804.1119@newshost.lanl.gov>, jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
|> 
|> The victory condition of the game is up to the programmer.  I prefer 
|> games where the victory condition is the achievement of some objective 
|> - you return to town alive and in possession of "The Lost Widget" for
|> example.  Expertise is demonstrated by achieving this objective with 
|> the _least_ possible score.  This is more natural to the real world 
|> where the important thing is the achievement, not the irrelevant 
|> side-information you pick up along the way (of course, you don't 
|> know what's irrelevant until you've solved the puzzle).

In a game, though, it's nice to explore everything --- if you were trying to
encourage people _not_ to explore everything, then why spend time writing
those "side dishes"?

	Just my opinions,

	Amit

-- 
/\\ Amit J Patel, amitp@owlnet.rice.edu
\\/ I think I'm at Rice University 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games
From: dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett)
Subject: We want *YOU* to beta-test Unnkulia Zero for DOS!
Keywords: text adventures unnkulian unventure acme cheez netnooz powst
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:35:10 GMT

We're looking for *one or two* people to beta-test the *DOS* version
of _Unnkulia Zero: The Search For Amanda_ for us.  If you're willing
to try to break the game in all sorts of bizarre ways *and* are
willing to write down copious notes about game bugs/typos/annoying
misfeatures, we'd like to give you a free advance copy of our
latest text adventure.

Since there may be more volunteers than we need, we ask that you only
respond if you've got a good hunk of time to put into to this process
in the next few weeks and can make testing the game a priority.
Beta-testing a text adventure well is tough, tedious, and
time-consuming.

We're particularly interested in people who have beta-tested adventure
games before.  Lots of experience playing these kinds of games is
required; you'll need to be able to solve a difficult game farly
quickly without many (preferably any) hints.

Drop me an email note if you're interested -- do NOT post replies to
the net (you will be royally flamed).  Also please remember:  DOS
version only.  We have enough beta-testers for the Mac version
already.

Thanks all!

Dave Baggett
ADVENTIONS
Internet: dmb@wam.umd.edu
Compu$erve: 76440.2671
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: adam@owlnet.rice.edu (Adam Justin Thornton)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventures
Organization: Milo's Meadow
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:22:56 GMT

I always kind of liked scores, although back when I was writing
games for my Apple II (Applesoft BASIC, btw, is _not_ a recommended
adventure development platform.  6502 assembler is even worse.),
they usually were of the "Pick up Object X for Y Points" variety.

I don't see why it would be terribly hard to have flags indicating
whether or not you've solved the puzzle for each given puzzle; you're 
probably going to have less than 300 such puzzles even in a very large
game; if each flag is set as a bit in a long status string, I don't see
why this is a problem.

One of the better implementations of this I have seen is Infocom's
_Bureaucracy_.  If you give the paranoid the password before legitimately
learning it, he snarls "You're just guessing", you can't see the pillar
(though you can climb it) in the airport before getting the ticket,
and so on.

Adam
-- 
"Man is conceived in sin and born in corruption and he passeth from the
 stink of the didie to the stench of the shroud.  There is _always_
 something." -- Robert Penn Warren | Vote Cthulhu in '92! | adam@rice.edu
If Rice shared my opinions I wouldn't have this disclaimer | 64,928
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.programmer
From: johnf@apollo.hp.com (John Francis)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventures
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:04:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) starts us thinking:
>I've been working on _The Legend Lives!_, a science fiction text
>adventure set in the Unnkulian Universe, and I've come to believe that
>score may not be such a great thing to have in a text adventure.  I'm
>looking for some input regarding how people think having a score
>affects gameplay.
>
>Making the game scored creates quite a few subtle problems.  One is the
>question of whether or not you should be able to finish the game
>without getting the maximum possible score.  Should information puzzles
>just not award points since they can be skipped?  (This would ensure
>that you couldn't win the game without the maximum possible score.)
>
>I can see several ways of dealing with this issue:
>
>	1. Don't award points for information puzzles . .
>	2. Code in clever restrictions that force the player to solve
>	   information puzzles even if they already know the information.
>	3. Make sure that all information given at the ends of information
>	   puzzles is randomly generated.
>	4. Eliminate scoring.
>	5. Make information puzzles scored, and allow them to be skipped,
>	   but award points as soon as the information is *used*.


At a general level - awarding score points is a handy way of letting the
player know he has done something right,  or that he has started down the
path towards solving a puzzle.  If you eliminate scores then you will have
to come up with some other form of reward system.

To adress your particular concern - I think (3) is the optimum solution.
I am pretty sure some of the later Infocom games took this approach -
in fact I know HHGTTG did (geting the right tool to open the hatch).

If you feel that is too much work, then you need solution (6) - keep
scores for information puzzles, but allow the puzzles to be bypassed.
This allows completion with less than a full score - so what?
The obsessive completists among us would still do a complete run-through
so we could finish the game with maximum score.  Those who don't care
about maximum points wouldn't bother.  (Did you get the point for the
dwarven magazine in Adventure?  How about the Don Woods stamp in Zork?)

My feelings about the other proposed solutions:
    1.  I like reward systems. If I do something right, I want praise.
    2.  As you say, hard to do in an unobtrusive fashion.
    4.  I like reward systems. If I do something right, I want praise.
    5.  Aargh!!  Reward *cheating*?
-- 
John Francis                                johnf@apollo.hp.com
The world can be divided into two classes :-
 those who divide people into two classes, and those who don't.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventure
From: gnat@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Nathan Torkington)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:45:57 GMT
Organization: Contract to CSC, Victoria Uni, Wellington, New Zealand

In article <1992Aug17.140003.19879@wam.umd.edu> dmb@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:

   Actually one of the biggest criticisms of UU2 has been that it's *not*
   totally linear, and hence is much harder.  If you have one puzzle right
   after another your "solution space" is much smaller, and on top of that
   you alway know exactly which puzzle to work on when.  If you've got
   10 puzzles still unsolved, how do you know which to work on next?  Unless
   the puzzles are totally independent of one another, there will be some
   required solution order.  (Of course, a completely strict ordering
   makes the game linear.  Linear but hard.)

Didn't Wonderland work this way?  There was almost always lots and
lots of cute little puzzles to explore.  It definitely didn't seem
linear from the little bit I played.

Nat
(gnat@kauri.vuw.ac.nz -- Nathan Torkington -- is the electronic text and
 MS-DOS archivist for the Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand)
From: jamesc@cs.concordia.ca (SCHIDLOWSKY james c.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Points  & Alternatives to scoring...
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:56:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

In article <BszLq4.Dv8.2@cs.cmu.edu> pww+@A.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Peter Weyhrauch) writes:
>As a counter position, I consider points unnecessary.  When I watch
>a movie, I don't keep track of the "score," I just enjoy what actually
>happens.  Similarly, I would hope that a well designed game would give
>me joy to play, not joy to watch my point tally go up.

Although this thread is long, I find it interesting, but the above reminded
me of something, and that is: how often I forgot to look at the score whilst
playing a game.  I enjoy playing it, seeing what happens and exploring.

Awarding points for puzzle solving can be redundant, since it's often very 
obvious when you've solved one.  e.g. HHGTTG: when you get that Babel Fish
in your ear.

However, I just thought of a variation on scoring:
   How about multiple scores:  Wealth Score,  Exploration Score,
   Puzzle-Solving Score... There would be even more fun in the "You have
   X points, you are a Y..".

_-_
</+\:=-- James.                 /\                                          <\
^\:-(jamesc@.cs.concordia.ca)   \/  "These are the dark ages." -- NoMeansNo </
From: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Alternatives to score in text adventure
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:13:47 GMT
Reply-To: exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Richardson, TX

Top Changwatchai writes:
>
>Incidentally, the less linear the game (I feel) the more challenging and fun
>it is to play, as well as design.

As do most people reading this group, I would assume.  Unfortunately, linearity
seems to be rather popular these days and the buying public doesn't have many
complaints.  (IMO linearity replaces fun with frustration--get to a puzzle, get
stuck, hit computer, sleep on it, continue.)

It is at least worth considering that there is somewhat of a backlash against
games which require too much thought and don't hold the players' hand every
step of the way.  Witness all the people in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games and rec.games.
video who get frustrated and ask for "cheats" after playing a game for two
days.  Then you also have people complaining because they solved a game in only
one...

--
James Hague   
exuhag@exu.ericsson.se
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction