Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 23 Nov 1992 17:26:41 CST
From: <U53644@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Entry level salaries (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
 <MUFFY.92Nov9082355@remarque.berkeley.edu> <GFZSBZ9@cc.swarthmore.edu>
 <1992Nov18.003203.223@fid.morgan.com>
 <JULIE.92Nov18190943@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu>

In response to Julie's article about why an employer might give preferential
treatment to a female applicant with a PhD in Mathematics (she says that she
isn't defending the practice, though she is showing why a "reasonable" employer
might do so. I.e. she doesn't want to hear a rebuttal. Tough. Standard excuses
for reverse discrimination deleted, we've all heard them already).

Excuse 1. There are fewer female PhD's than male, so it is reasonable to
          that female applicants may have faced greater "hardships".

                I'd also point out that there are proportionately more
                Asian PhD's than Caucasian in Math (and most other technical
                fields as well). Would anyone seriously suggest that Asian
                students are discriminated IN FAVOR OF ? Or that they've faced
                fewer hardships than their white classmates ?

                Better attitudes toward study seems to be the reason for their
                greater rate of success, and it would be grossly unfair to
                them if we were to establish "affirmative action" for
                Caucasians to protect ourselves from the effects of our own
                comparatively poor study habits (averaging over the population,
                of course - individuals will vary). It would be equally unfair
                (and it is) to punish male students for typically working
                harder in school (no apology for the political incorrectness
                of this comment).

                When I graded papers at Indiana, I made a point of grading one
                problem on all of the papers at a time, and not looking at the
                first page until last, ignoring the upper right hand corner
                until done, so unconscious bias couldn't enter into my grading.
                One can't say that I gave less help to the female students,
                because, oddly enough, the overwhelming majority of my office
                time was spent on my female students (and no, I never did that)

                It didn't matter. The male students consistently outperformed
                the female students in every class I taught, contrary to my
                expectations at the time. Partially, the problem was that the
                female students were wasting a lot of time on "study groups"
                that were little more than social clubs, but in working with
                them, it just came out that >most< of them simply weren't
                willing to try that hard. The moment (during office hours)
                that they had problems with an exercise or a concept, they'd
                just give up and go on. In Mathematics, this lack of
                persistance is fatal - at upper levels, one does proofs by
                trying endless approaches until inspiration dawns, a process
                that is intrinsically frustrating. As hard as I tried to get
                my female students to develop the patience and calm needed to
                get ahead in the subject, it just never happened. And I wasn't
                alone in this failure - the other AI's (TA's) were no more
                successful (not even the female ones). By contrast, a fair
                number of my male students did push themselves hard enough to
                succeed. And they became grad students.

2. Lack of encouragement from instructors, and lack of role models, makes it
   more difficult for women to succeed in Math. Without those role models, the
   next generation won't even try.

       Too god damn bad ! Look, lady, I'm now getting my second grad degree,
       out of the MANY faculty members I have met, only one was an Irish -
       American, and none were learning disabled. (BTW, the most conservative
       estimate puts the Irish community at 7% of the general US population,
       and the LD population much larger). Only a handful were French. So, who
       are my role models ? This hasn't kept me from maintaing a Dean's list
       average at IU. Encouragement ? You have to witness the treatment of LD
       students to believe it - faculty openly encourage our classmates to
       assault us outside of class into Middle school, and then pursue
       disciplinary action against those who don't let themselves get beaten up
       . Throughout high school and college, we are given no help by our
       instructors (even when our classmates do get help), asked what makes us
       think that we have a right to go to school (until the late 60's, legally
       , we didn't), put into illegal testing situations in which our handicap
       is used to keep us from being able to get work done (e.g. I can't filter
       out background noise, and the U. Chicago physics department forced me to
       take all of my exams across a small courtyard from a belltower, right as
       the bells were being rung (during the entire test period) throughout my
       time there). Those who protest this are blacklisted openly. Even if
       their protests are listened to, papers get "misplaced" - and the
       students are arbitrarily dropped a grade or two.

   And yet graduate students of Irish and Southern European descent, and
   learning disbaled students, still manage to study, and master their subjects

   You want my heart to bleed because you didn't think that your instructor
   seemed supportive enough when you went to him for help ? Get serious !
   Grow up ! The only person responsible for your own inner motivation is you.
   What makes you think that male students get any emotional support from their
   instructors ? Ever hear the saying "take it like a man" ? Even the most
   favored male student wouldn't get what you're asking for. If you're so
   immature that you expect your professors to prop up your psyche, you don't
   belong in a professional area.


In summary, then : 1. Women are scarce in Mathematics because of their own
                      personal failings, and nothing else. (If the previous
                      poster had even the slightest sense of shame, she would
                      have noted that affirmative action has favored women in
                      Mathematics and Chemistry both for decades, so the
                      complaint that women are getting more than their share of
                      breaks is >well< substantiated). To clean the slate every
                      time women fall behind in some area is simply not justice
                      - it deprives those who have worked harder of the fruit
                      of their labor.

                   2. Discrimination is discrimination, and I, for one, am sick
                      and tired of hearing excuses for the inexcusable.
                      Feminism, at least, is being partially exposed for what
                      it really is : a totally hypocritical self-interest
                      movement aimed at grabbing everything it can for women,
                      with no concern whatsoever for whether or not any men are
                      being wronged in the process, masquerading as a push for
                      equal rights.

Don't be fooled. And don't be steamrollered. Women AREN'T entitled to special
privileges. Don't let them have them.

                                                 Joseph B. Dunphy
                                                 Politically incorrect without
                                                    apology


PS. I can already see a net battle brewing here, with every feminist on the net
    writing in to argue with the proposition that discriminating against white
    males on the basis of gender and ethnicity is wrong. I have already spoken
    my peace, and will ignore those responses, much as I would ignore any other
    self-serving hypocrite writing in on her own behalf. I have better things
    to do with my time. Discrimination is wrong. Anyone who disagrees with that
    is either intellectually or morally deficient. End of subject.

    Responses are unwelcome, and will bounce.

Newsgroups: soc.women