HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SOF Review of Marshall/Sanow book
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:15:40 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Dec9.035818.18809@netcom.com> damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
#while recountings of anecdotal evidence make for delightful reading, i 
#continue to wonder why - in this one particular area - so many people 
#unapologetically dismiss what little credible scientific data is available,
#and embrace the dangerous pseudo-science of "hey, i heard about this guy
#who was hit in the hip with a 9mm +P+ and that sucker hit the ground faster'n
#you can say 'BOGUS DATA'!!"
#damn! i guess i must be wuna them facklerites!!  %^)

I guess I must have missed something: I've seen alot of debate over
Marshall's data (which looks quite questionable), but all I've seen to back 
up Fackler's position is anecdotal evidence. If someone has statistically
significant evidence in favor of heavy, slow 9mm, I'd like to see it...
(Of course, I don't personally consider any 9mm all that reliable: 
.357 and hot 10mm is about where I draw the line. 9mm can often make
up the difference by double taping, but that make the one-shot-stop issue
irrelevant.)

                                               Frank Crary
                                               CU Boulder
From: barry@godzilla.quotron.com (Barry Geipel)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Wanted - Spotting scope
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:24:05 GMT
Organization: Quotron Systems, Inc.

I am looking for a spotting scope to use in high power rifle
competitions. If you have one for sale, please send me a 
description.

-- 
==========================================================
Barry L. Geipel            || 
INTERNET:barry@quotron.com || Lacking a muse, my mauser
COMPUSERVE:710055,3726     ||  must be my  thunderbolt
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Feeding a Glock
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:35:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, kkirksey@world.std.com (Ken B Kirksey) says:

## 1. My Glock 17, like most other 9mm firearms, is designed for use
## with 115-125 gr bullets at high velocity. Changing these parameters
## runs the risk of reduced functional reliability. There is supposed to
## be a warning to this effect WRT 147 gr bullets in the 1992 Olin law
## enforcement catalog - can anyone confirm?

#I don't know about other 9mm firearms, but your Glock 17 will fire ANY 
#current 9mm factory ammo without "risk fo reduced functional reliabilty."
#At least that's what the person I talked to at Glock this afternoon
#told me.  She told me specifically that this includes even +P+ 147-grain ammo.
#Please check your facts before posting things like this.  It causes
#unnecessary confusion.

He probably did check his facts.  I have also heard of feeding problems
when using subsonic 9mm in Glock 17 and 19s.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: conley@hawk.cs.ukans.edu (Dennis R. Conley)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 1993 Lethal Force Institute schedule
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:23:11 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Computer Science Dept

LFI-I ( $600 )

	Feb 18 - 21		Miami, FL
	May  6 -  9		Sacramento, CA
	Jun 24 - 27		Dunbarton, NH
	Jul 15 - 18		Winimac, IN
	Jul 19 - 23		Dunbarton, NH
	Aug  2 -  6		Dunbarton, NH
	Aug 26 - 29		Coeur d'Alene, ID
	Sep 18 - 21		Colonial Heights, VA
	Oct 14 - 17		Dunbarton, NH
	Oct 21 - 24		San Bernardino, CA
	Nov  6 -  9		Long Beach, CA
	Mar 24 - 27    ( '94 )	Texas

LFI-II ( $700 )

	Mar  8 - 12		Gainsville, FL
	Apr 29 - May 2		Dayton, OH
	Aug  9 - 13		Dunbarton, NH
	Nov 10 - 14		Long Beach, CA
	Mar 28 - Apr 1 ( '94 )	Texas

LFI-III ( $800 )

	Aug 16 - 20		Dunbarton, NH
	Nov 15 - 19		Duarte, CA

Lethal Threat Mangagement ( $600 )

	Jan 18 - 22		Beaumount, TX
	Oct 25 - 29		San Bernardino, CA

Combat Handgun ( $150 )

	Apr 24			Winimac, IN
	Jun  5			Dunbarton, NH
	Jun 12			Long Beach, CA
	Jul 24			Dayton, OH
	Jul 27			Winimac, IN
	Sep 18			Dunbarton, NH
	Sep 18			Long Beach, CA

Shotgun ( $300 )

	Jul 17 - 18		Dunbarton, NH
	Sep 25 - 26		Winimac, IN

Emergency Rifle ( $300 )

	Jul 24 - 25		Dunbarton, NH
	Nov 20 - 21		Duarte, CA

Auto Pistol ( $300 )

	Jul 31 - Aug 1		Dunbarton, NH

Kubotan ( $75 )

	Jul 23			Dunbarton, NH
	Aug  6			Dunbarton, NH

Deadly Force ( $300 )

	Mar  6 -  7		Tampa, FL
	Sep  4 -  5		Boise, ID

Hell Week ( $800 )

	Dec  6 - 10		Concord, NH

Stressfire ( $300 )

	Mar 13 - 14		Tampa, FL
	Apr 25 - 26		Winimac, IN
	Aug  1 -  2		Winimac, IN
	Sep 11 - 12		Dunbarton, NH



contact:	Massad Ayoob
		Lethal Force Institute
		PO Box 122
		Concord, NH  03301
		(603)224-6814

-- 
|Dennis R. Conley, Computer Science Dept., University of Kansas (913)864-7372 |
|conley@hawk.cs.ukans.edu			     conley@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu|
From: DENNIS_@ncsu.edu (DGA)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Match, Wheel, Flint Locks, My defense
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:52 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


#Firing a flintlock can be a bit disconcerting.  You don't even notice the 
#cock falling on the frizzen, but that "poof!" from the primer can be pretty 
#impressive.  While it is very easy to develop a "flinch" from shooting a 
#flintlock, closing the eyes is not one of the prescribed steps.
#
#Even if a "flinch" develops, it is not as big of a problem as might be 
#assumed.  There is often enough time to correct the problem and 
#read a short novel between ignition of the primer and the actual discharge 
#of the piece.
#
#Once you become accustomed to the slow ignition time of a flintlock (or even 
#a percussion lock) very good accuracy can be had with a well made rifle.  
#
#DGA
#

Several people took offense to the above statements and expressed their 
feelings via E-Mail.

Those took the time to comment were uniformly polite in their criticism, but 
IMHO, simply incorrect in their belief that either the flintlock or 
percussion lock represent fast methods of ignition.  It is CLEARLY an 
exaggeration to say that flintlocks are as slow as the above would indicate. 
However, I was surprised to discover that there is a substantial number of 
people who took exception to the characterization of flintlocks as slow.

In an environment where a factory Remington 700 action can be characterized 
as slow relative to a finely honed custom tweeked action, it seems silly 
to defend the lock speed of flintlocks.  I stand by my general (if 
exaggerated) statement that flintlocks are slow by today's standards. 

I am still amazed that so many people argued the point.  I don't think 
anyone who regularly used a 50 Mhz, 486 would complain if someone commented 
on the slowness of a 4 Mhz, 8088 (a real screamer in its day).


No offense intended.

DGA
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: AKMs
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:23:58 GMT


#I'd like opinions as to which is more reliable:
#
#        1.) The "MAADI AK-47 RIFLE"
#
#        2.) Hungarian "SA 85M (AK47)"

I haven't used either of these myself, but I imagine that since they're
AKs, they're probably equal in reliability.  Can't really comment about
quality, however.

FWIW, one distributor is selling a folding stock AK - in other words,
it has the bottom folder AND the thumbhole stock.  You'd have to find
the pistol grip and remove the wood stock to take advantage of the folder.
It was either Hungarian or Yugoslavian manufacture.

#Anyone know if either of these take standard AK 30-rd mags?

As far as I know, you can interchange mags between all AKs.

#Also, I remember something about FFLs having to notify BATF
#if you buy more than one gun in a five-day period---is this
#true?  Just wondering.  We've got some 30 shopping days
#till "Clinton."

This is for handguns only - rifles purchases are not affected.


Rob
From: slv4b@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Enfield Questions
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:34:34 GMT
Organization: Utah State University


     I'm thinking of buying an Enfield .303 and would like any opinion
concerning this rifle.  Is ammo for it fairly assessible and reasonably priced?        
What are the strengths and drawbacks from any of you who have owned or fired
this gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Lance Robinson 
Utah State University
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More newbie questions
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:18:49 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <viking.724472619@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

...about kids & toy guns

#	It's a non-issue.  Kids are remarkably adept at determining what is
#a play toy and what is real, despite using your best Snap-On wrenches as
#drumsticks.  It seems to me that they can be taught at a very early age
#what is a real gun (do not touch) and what is a play gun (have fun).  This
#is often reinforced by the play gun being given to them and kept in their
#toybox, while the real gun stays in Daddy's closet safe.

I mostly agree--there's nothing wrong with kids having toy guns. However,
PLEASE teach them not to point these toys at strangers. Teach your kids
that while it's OK to point toy guns at their friends when they're playing
mutually agreed upon war games, it's NOT OK to point these guns at people
who don't know them and don't know for sure that the "gun" is a toy.

There have been cases of kids getting shot because they pointed a gun at
the wrong person. Also, it gives me the creeps to have some strange kid
point what I can only hope--but don't know for sure--is a toy at me. It's
sad, but these days it's just possible that the gun is for real.





-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: spf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Match, Wheel, Flint Locks
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:55:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

#From article <1992Dec13.234101.25158@netcom.com>, by tssmith@netcom.com (Tim Smith):
# (Question for flintlock experts:  what do you call the steel thingie
# that the flint strikes?  I thought it was called a "frizzen", but you
# don't find this word in any English dictionary.)

Yep, it's a frizzen.
 
# Artillery used all kinds of ignition methods, but right up until the
# end of the muzzle-loading piece (say, the American Civil War), most
# pieces used a matchlock-like firing mechanism.  From the demos I've
# seen, it worked like this:  the powder charge is loaded in one or
# more small sacks (after sponging out, of course), and the shot
# (round, shell, cannister, whatever) is loaded on top of the charge. 
# The gunner then pushes a small pointed tube (a quill) that contains
# powder through the touch hole and into a powder sack.  When ready to
# fire, the gunner touches the quill with his match (probably a
# slow-match), and away you go.

Not quite.  The slow-match was actually kept behind the gun to light
"portfires", which are basically very similar to road flares.  These burn
at about 3000F, and will fire a cannon in the rain.  Unfortunately, they're
quite hard to come by today, and dangerous to use in demonstrations, so we
almost always fire the gun with the slow match (which is why you got that
impression).    Also note that friction primers (lanyard pull) had replaced
this method in time for the American Civil War.

Steve Frysinger
From: 2ftylunar@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 1000 YD. BR QUESTION
Date: 20 Dec 92 15:33:28 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Could someone tell me what is the best cal. for 1000 meter / 1000 yd benchrest 
shooting. Would the 300-winchester magnum or 300-Weatherby magnum be
better, I'm leaning towards the 300-Weatherby mag. Which receiver would be the
best for this condition my preference is the rem-700 but I heard it is not a
very strong action.  What barrel twist and bullet weight would be the optimum.
From: CTOWNSEND@thor.nafb.trw.com (C_TOWNSEND)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Mossberg shotgun help!
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:56:20 GMT



I have a Mossberg 185D 20 Ga Shotgun. It is a bolt-action type that seems to
take a clip.  Unfortunately, I don't have a clip.  I've called around to
various gun dealers/ part wholesalers with no luck; I've been told that the gun
is _OLD_ and parts etc. are no longer available.  I am still interested in
finding the clip, however.  So I have 3 questions:

	1: Does anyone know where this clip can be found?

	2: If not, Does anyone have one they want to sell?

	3: If not, Can a currently available clip be converted (and with what
	degree of difficulty) by either myself or a gunsmith ( a price
	guesstimate would be nice too . . .)

	I suppose email is appropriate; Thanks in advance for any replies. . .



					CT
From: mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the home....
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:20:58 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group Marketing


In article <1992Dec9.161323.26021@chpc.org>, rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec7.201848.2685@phx.mcd.mot.com> mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call) writes:

[stuff deleted]
|> #steel box with a push button (Simplex type) combination lock.  These run in the
|> #$90-$120 range and are very secure, yet offer quick access.
 
|> I diasgree.
|> 
|> The are only 1083** combinations for a simplex locks (the 5 button mecahnical 
|> pushbutton combinations locks - the 5 buttons are usually in a straight line, but 
|> can be arranged in a circle as on some door units).  This 1083 reduces to an even 
|> smaller number if you leave out "unlikely" combinations (overly simple or
|> complex ones).

Rob - 

How did you arrive at this figure?  Does it take into account that multiple
buttons may be pressed at the same time?  If this is true, I will concede that
this system is less secure that I stated in the original posting.  I still don't
think you or anyone else could break the combination in an hours time other than
by dumb luck.

Glen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Call                          Technical Marketing Systems Engineer
Motorola Computer Systems, Inc.    gcall@phx.mcd.mot.com or mcdapps!gcall
DISCLAIMER: The above is strictly my opinion.  I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MOTOROLA!
From: mlh6@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael L. Haynes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger's 'crime'
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:20:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)


Oops,

	Sorry to shake those old worms, but I'd also like a copy
of anything on this.  I've been a loyal Ruger fan for 15 years and
have always been pleased w/ the service and prodects.  Please send
this info by email to save bandwidth....

		Mike
From: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .357mag vs .44mag
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:20 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

In article <1992Dec15.070103.15131@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
#...
#	hence the question does .44 offer some advantage over
#	.357 when used for defense purposes? And under what
#	set of conceivable circumstances?

Maybe shoothing someone in his/her car? Perhaps shooting someone behind
a thick wall? Or you can play "Dirty Harry"? :)

David

"Hey punk, this is a 44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world.
By now, you may be wondering if it has 5 or 6 shots. But you are wrong,
it is a Desert Eagle; it holds 8+1 rounds!"
-- 
 K. David Lin, Ph.D.              | IEEE Member, NRA Member, HAM Operator
 Communication Services Research  | U S WEST Life Safety Team
 U S WEST Advanced Technologies   | Defend your life in STEREO - Beretta & SIG 
 E-mail: kdlin@advtech.uswest.com | Disclaimer: Only personal opinions
From: edp@sneaks.kodak.com (Ed Pendzik -- Sun Consulting)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Superiour revolvers/$650 s&w 686
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:32 GMT



Please don't take this as a cut.

#I paid my 686 900 sfr. Now, it the same. A MR-93 is around 1050 sfr. A US
#dollar is around 1.4 sfr. As you can see the prices are quite close. At
#least, they are comparable.

$643 * 1.4 = 900.2 sfr.

$643! WOW! is that really what a new S&W 686 costs in Switzerland?

around here they are about $350 new for a 6" 686. I have been shopping
for one used while a friend saves up the cash. in the USA, since many
police forces are going to hi-cap autos, the revolvers are being traded
in and you can get a very good condition, used 6" 686 for between
$240 and $270, plus sales tax (7.5% in my locale), and about $20
for an FFL/dealer to do the transaction. 

This is one of the european privileges I don't covet ;-)

for $30 a good gunsmith
can lighten and smooth up the double action trigger pull. all the 
single action trigger pulls I have tried on S&W DA revolvers
have been, if anything TOO light, at least for me, since I use them
for hunting. I usually ask the smith to lighten up the DA and make
the SA a little heavier.

I'm curious. what does a Colt stainless enhanced officers model cost?
what about a springfield armory M1911A1 series 90 blued?
or a Colt AR15A2 HBAR? new prices please.


	Regards,
	Ed Pendzik
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 40-XB Questions
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:18:34 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <BzB8CB.Er8@fc.hp.com>, by scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath):
# Edward Godwin (edward@locutus.dell.com) wrote:
# : 
# : I have decided to purchase a Remington 40-XB.  I want it in a 30 cal chambering.
# 
# STUFF DELETED.
# 
# : Now, I realize how versatile .30-06 is.  Since .300 WinMag is the same bullet
# : size, it should be almost as versatile (especially with duplex loads).  Plus
#                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
#                                                           What is this?

I believe it is a load made up of 2 or more powders.  Definitely not
recommended.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: which progressive reloader to buy
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:23:54 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Dec10.204018.16140@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#I have been satisfied with my Load Master.  It seems quite strong to me.

As I said in my article, the Lee Load-Master seems to be a nice press.
When I say that understand that I feel that many of the Lee products
are designed at the minimum weight end of the engineering scale
whereas much of the other hardware seems to be designed for trailer
towing.  The Load-Master seems to be built to the same scale as other
presses on the market - at least from what I've seen (and I haven't
had the opportunity to play with one).

#Is the 650 auto-indexing?

I'm not sure, but from my experience in both the Square Deal and the
550 I'd say that a lack of auto-indexing wouldn't keep me from buying
a press for the work that I do.  Auto-indexing gets in the way when
you're setting up a load - having to constantly move a case back one
notch in the shellholder is at least annoying and sometimes helps you
to make loading mistakes.

I like the lack of auto-indexing on the 550, but enjoy the auto-index
on the SDB, mostly because I do rifle loads on the 550 and lots of
pistol rounds on the SDB - meaning that I do a higher percentage of my
setup to loading time on the 550, and many of my pistol loads on the
SDB are a "slap on the toolhead and go" sort of loading process.

I'd like the auto-indexing to be selectable.  This would allow for
convenient setup and a bit more easy loading.

#I have 2 1000s set up.  They were cheap enough that I could afford them,
#one for .32 mag and one for .38/.357.  I would recommend buying the whole
#outfit instead of just the shell plate (~$20 - $25 when I bought mine). 
#This makes everything much simpler.  My gunsmith has one press & changes
#the shell plates, I never asked, but I expect changing takes him a few
#minutes as well.  I still prefer auto-indexing.  I think it is safer.

I wouldn't fire loads from a non-autoindexing auto-powder drop press
in a Class III for the potential damage from a squib load.  (Does that
parse?)  I don't have a problem in a normal auto-loader as I don't
typically rattle off the rounds in such a way that I wouldn't notice a
primer-only load.

## I've got Dillon progressive reloaders because folks recommended them,
## and because of Dillon's support.  I've broken things by doing stupid
## things, and Dillon has sent out the repair parts with no hassle, even
## including extra parts (I guess to cover another stupid attack).
## 
#
#I haven't broken any of these presses yet ;-{).

I've seen all too many stories of folks that broke their presses, a
lot of them the Lee 1000.  I haven't heard of anyone breaking a
Load-Master from Lee yet - but a friend of mine has several (5-6) Lee
1000's for which he maintains a large spare parts inventory.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Match, Wheel, Flint Locks
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:26:39 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1992Dec13.234101.25158@netcom.com> tssmith@netcom.com (Tim Smith) writes:
#In article <Bz6n7t.LJo@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:
##Does anyone know what the difference between these
##types of actions?
##
##Jus' curious...
#
#There are two kinds of muzzle-loading hand-held weapons: those that
#use primer (fine gunpowder) in a pan, next to a touch hole, and those
#that put the primer in small copper percussion caps.
#
#There were pistols, muskets, rifles, and shotguns made with
#percussion caps, which were developed (in England, I think) around
#the beginning of the 19th century, and were in common use until
#obsoleted by breech-loading cartridge weapons in the 1860s--1870s.
#
#The first kind, with a pan containing priming powder, needed some way
#to ignite the primer.  The first solution was a match, which is a
#small rope of quick-match (like punk) that smolders for a long time. 
#You clamp the match in the cock.  When you pull the trigger, the cock
#snaps the match down into the pan, ignites the primer, and away you
#go (after maybe several seconds of lock time, in the worst case).
#
Wow! And we complain about how highly trained our combat people
have to be _today_!  Think about it- you'd have to learn how to clamp 
that burning rope, uh, like that, and then snap it down into into
a pan of black powder!  I mean, would that give you a flinch, or what?

Man, I _tried_ to walk on by this one.  I did I did I did I did I did! 
Forgive my weakness.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com