HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: lit quiz
Date: 1 Oct 92 20:13:48 GMT
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway


rbeville@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Robert E Beville) writes:

>       Why is the name of the literary? plot? style, in western
>       literature of the Holmes-Watson type of story.  Where the
>       main guy has a side-kick who asks those questions that lead
>       to  the furtherment of the plot or exposition.  These duos
>       are in the comics, showbiz, movies, TV...
>       Batman-Robin, Abbott-Costello, Rowan-Martin, Martin-Lewis,
>       Roy-Gabby, Gene-Pat, Hopalong-Cisco, LR-Tonto, Green Hornet-Cato.
>       In lit: the Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew-?, Perry-Della/Paul,
>       Ellery-Inspector Q.,
>       In TV: Andy-Barney, Cagney-Lacey
>       and so on.
 
>       What was the first piece of western lit to introduce this
>       form?  What were the names of the duo?
 
It was certainly around in Ancient Greece -- Plato gave a number of
sidekicks to his Socrates character.  Thaetetus is my favorite.
 
 
Mark
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: literature students
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Sep30.033906.27906@nevada.edu>
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:48:22

Some of us professors like students who argue.  Take my course in
"Technological Opportunities for Humanity".
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 05:21:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.123513.5235@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
}
}Quite clear. But I still do not hear Barbara saying that CP is stupid.

Hmm... you don't find the claim that one is incapable of "thinking ones' way
out of a paper bag" and that one is stupid synonymous?  I did, and do, and
will unless you or someone or something else persuades me why I shouldn't.

}Why, Camille of course. So, we are somewhat in agreement. I can imagine
}hearing The Pagger described, variously, as being neo-Conservative and 
}neo-Radical -- by persons from the Left and Right respectively. Does it
}make sense to see her wearing Germaine de Stael's cloak?

I find her somewhat libertarian, but don't know anything about Ms. de Stael,
and so am unable to evaluate your comparison.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: argument from buoyancy (was ...from gravity)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:37:43 GMT

fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes:

>     I'm going to shout some now.  I LOVE computers!  I ADORE the litle
>beasties.  I've been a computer hobbyist for fifteen years.  My present home
>computer has sixteen megabytes of memory and a six hundred megabyte hard
>disk.  It runs Unix.  Other computer jocks will please bear these credentials
>in mind when I bellow
>
>                 COMPUTERS ARE NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BOOKS!
>
>Computers are wonderful for storing and retrieving and searching text.  But
>for READING text they stink.
>
>                                                      -- jf


An interesting (and similarly structured) observation can be found in
Robert X. Cringely's new book _Accidental Empires: How the Boys of
Silicon Valley Make Their Millions, Battle Foreign Competition and
Still Can't Get a Date_. On p. 69 Cringely says:
	
	"Why are you doing this as a book?" Frankston asked me over
breakfast one morning in Newton, Massachusetts. By "this," he meant
the book you have in your hands right now, the major literary work of
my career, and, I hope, the basis of an important American fortune.
"Why not just do it as a hypertext file that people could browse
through on their computers."

	I will not be browsed through. The essence of writing books is
the author's right to tell the story in his own words and in the order
he chooses. Hypertext, which allow an instant accounting of how many
times the words *Dynamic Random-Access Memory* or *fuck* appear,
completely eliminates what I perceive as my value-added, turns this
exercise into something like the Yellow Pages,and totally eliminates
the prospect that it will help fund my retirement. 


This is from the authorial point of view of course, but it dovetails
nicely with the discussion of whether we would ever take e-books
to bed.

Keith
--
Keith Morgan		 |I've always had a secret desire to harangue
kamorgan@athena.mit.edu  |a crowd of people for 10 hours in the
		         |sweltering heat. It's the origin of my
		         |fascination with public language.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: Stormin' Norman (was: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 05:22:53 GMT

In article <28SEP92.15231889@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>Barbara Hlavin writes:

i[Heather characterizes Norman Mailer as a pompous, dick-waving 
fathead, in reponse to someone else who calls Camille Paglia a 
... a, uh, what was it?  -- "intellectual vampire bitch"? ] 

Loving Norman Mailer's writing, I said: 

>>Fine.  Camille Paglia is a pompous, dick-waving fathead.
>>
>>*Norman Mailer* is an intellectual vampire bitch.  (But at least
>>he can think his way out of a paper bag, and jesus can he write.)

Heahter replied:
>
>Well, I don't particularly admire his writing



>Norman at cocktail party, approaches Gore Vidal.
>
>        NORMAN:  You look like a dirty old Jew.
>
>        VIDAL (startled): *YOU* look like a dirty old Jew.
>
>        (Norman slugs Vidal.)

I say: 

This isn't writing. 


>Now my point, which you completely missed because you were so eager
>to fling epithets about


Why, Heather; I wasn't flinging epithets.  I merely picked up two
that had been previously flang (one of them by you) and rearranged 
them to see what they looked like in a different configuration. 

--Barbara
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof - New words!!
Date: 26 Sep 1992 09:00:36 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

James Bull-shitter pulls his knob:

	>wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) oozes:


	>> Ain't that sweet ?


>     Oh, I have a little demon, tra la la, that scans the netnoise, mmmmmm
>hmmmmm, ...

Aha, aha...


>	...and zaps articles based on *any* imbedded text, rum te tum tum, ...


Da dum da dum da dum...

...	so
>much better than a kill file, not only do I never see 'em, *nobody* does.


OOooooh yoo dont say, Jimmie Jimmie. White fella speak  with forked
tongue ...  up his demon's arse, no?


>And they don't get propagated.  

Deary deary mi.
Fucky-poo Jimmie
Fuller shit is he...


>Gets all crosspostings, including the ones
>in the junk spool.  

Ya dont say.  Fucky-poo Jimmie love talk dirty.
We wait with bated breath, oh yes.


>Embedded text, let's see, how about uniwa!wojdylo and
>(INFIDEL) and madvax and maths.uwa.oz.au and University of Westrn Australia.
>(Westrn, forsooth.)  That should flush most of it.  

Oh yes, yes it should.

If Fucky-poo Jimmie had no shit for brains, that is.


>As for the physical
>presence of the unlovely object, ah reckon Westrn Australia is just about
>far enough away.  As long as it stays there.

BTW, I'm not in Westrn Australia, Fucky-poo Jimmie. You might be surprised how
close I am to your sty. Wouldn't come closer for the stinky poo.


Tell the world what you do with your demon, Fucky-poo Jimmie, cos the
little demon that you have, tra la la, him don't listen to what you
tell 'im. Him don't care for no shit from no shit for brains, cunt-faced pricks
like Fucky-poo Jimmie.



>     Voila!  Wojdylo n'exist plus.  Actually, keeping the peons supressed
>is no trick at all...
>                                           -- jf


Fucky-poo Jimmie, him pullem his knob in my direction. 

But it blows back in his face.


I.
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: A Room of One's Own with a View to Kill
Date: 25 Sep 92 16:49:32 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Mike Morris writes:
> [cogent arguments]
> I am instantly reminded at Tolkien's
>jab at the young, calling the ``tweens'' those irresponsible years
>one goes through between being a child and an adult at 30. 

Nit-pick brigade.  That was a construct of a non-human society, the
hobbits, who specifically mature slower than humans and live longer,
average lifespan of 100.  Written when life expectancy would have been
around 60-65 (I'm sure someone has data).  It was just an expanded
scale of years.

	Larry "Nit-pick" HammeR
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \   "Hidden harmony is better than
The insane don't need disclaimers \   manifest."  -- Heraclitus, #47
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Date: 27 Sep 92 17:44:28 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Sep27.171244.10283@grebyn.com>, fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster) writes:
> Mike Godwin writes:
>>You're misreading Paglia. She's not talking about STDs.
> 
> What are STDs?  
> 
> 					--Fiona

Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
From: maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books in the time of Love
Date: 1 Oct 1992 00:10:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fir.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <9209301932.AA28340@cfdev1.shearson.com>, mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
|> 
|> And how about the lurkers out there?

I've been racking my brains trying to associate a book, any book,
with any of my various entanglements.  Given the number of books
I've read, it's surprising, but I can't.  Apparently my mind *is*
distractable from print, at least briefly.  One entanglement,
though, crossed the cusp with the gift of a book: _The Tale of
Tom Kitten_, if memory serves.  [Bought at the Foundry Bookstore
in New Haven, one I didn't see in the latest compendium.  I hope
it hasn't folded -- it was a pretty good small new-book place.] 

|> Surely some of you have been storing
|> up that one GREAT story about the time you dumped some poor guy after reading
|> a Norman Mailer novel -- deciding that you wanted to go back to your
|> dangerous "dick-waiving fathead" former boyfriend rather than continue
|> to go out with the caring sensitive man ...

Gee, and I thought I was being *sensitive* by waiving the thing!

	Vance
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature of Travel (Was Re: literature students)
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:42:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Lauren L. Crawford writes:
>
>I spent a good part of the last decade living and traveling overseas, and
>am now a confirmed wanderer.  As such, I've become very interested in the
>whole genre in literature and am auditing a course on the literature of
>travel.  The reading list includes:
>	[deleted]	
>
>Also, any books you can recommend on the whole subject that aren't listed
>above?  Why do people travel, anyway?  I include living overseas for
>periods of time here.  And why does
>the experience clarify and improve some individuals, and destroy others?

Allow me to add THE OXFORD BOOK FO TRAVEL VERSE edited by somebody, or
was it by other? -- whomever.  The experiences of the poets are
interesting, and the verse good too.  The editor takes a stab at
just your questions in the introduction, and the wide selection of
experiences reflect this.  If you want, I can go look up the 
publishing info at home.

	Larry "Still here for now" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "People ought to fight for their law as
The insane don't need disclaimers \  for a wall."  -- Heraclitus, #100
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: literature students
Date: 26 Sep 92 12:39:10 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

Have any of you literature students/professors been bothered by how many
students spout formulae instead of thinking for themselves?  It seems to be
the bright younger ones who do it and I vaguely remember having done it 
myself.  (Is it a natural phase?)  They get all kinds of attention and praise
from the teachers for doing it, too.

F'rinstance, yesterday during our discussion of _Lord Jim_, someone mentioned 
that something in the story sounded like the garden of Eden.  In the works
of an overtly religious author, i.e., Milton, that wouldn't bug me.  But when
every time a garden is mentioned in a story some student pipes up with "Eden,"
well, I get tired of it.  Our professor may have noticed my eyes rolling (and
my head snapping back); she quoted the opening sentence of an essay a student
had written for her: "It seems as if every time a character dies in a story,
some English teacher calls that character a Christ figure."  (The student was
writing about Billy Budd and went on to say that he nevertheless thought
Melville intended BB to be a Christ figure.)  

Does it take a certain level of experience and maturity for students to begin
thinking for themselves?  I think so, and I think most people aren't that
mature until they're about 25 (this from my observation of myself and other
people I've "known").  It's so much more rewarding to read books and get my
own ideas about them than to read them and wonder what will impress an
English teacher.  That seems to be a sign of being ready for graduate
school.


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
From: HISJMA@BYUVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
Date: 2 Oct 92 03:28:49 GMT
Organization: Brigham Young University

In article <137673@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>, llawson@blandings.llnl.gov (Len Lawson)
says:
>
>Unfortunately, Edward R. Hamilton doesn't accept orders outside the U.S.

I could have sworn I saw catalogs from Edward R. Hamilton when I was living
in Victoria, BC.  It is possible they were brought up from the States by a
colleague, however.

Now that I am in the U.S., of course, I needn't worry . . . .

--JMA
From: kcr@rushforth.Eng.Sun.COM (Kevin Rushforth)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Thanks (Re: QUERY: A Wrinkle In Time)
Date: 27 Sep 92 21:52:34 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: rushforth

Thanks to everyone who responded via e-mail or by posting.  My daughter
just borrowed A SWIFTLY TILTING PLANET from the library.

-- 
Kevin C. Rushforth                 | "If winning is not important,
Sun Microsystems                   |  then commander, why keep score?"
                                   |              - Lt. Worf
INET: kcr@Eng.Sun.COM              |
UUCP: <the-backbone>!sun!eng!kcr   |
From: nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (john a nickles)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: lit quiz
Keywords: duo character style
Date: 2 Oct 92 03:20:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <7150@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> rbeville@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Robert E Beville) writes:
>
>
>	Why is the name of the literary? plot? style, in western
>	literature of the Holmes-Watson type of story.  Where the
>	main guy has a side-kick who asks those questions that lead
>	to  the furtherment of the plot or exposition.  These duos
>	are in the comics, showbiz, movies, TV...
>
>	What was the first piece of western lit to introduce this
>	form?  What were the names of the duo? 
>
>	What book/author is credited as the first mystery novel?
>	( of the 'detective' solves a crime -type )
>
>	Any discussion?
>
>	best regards, rbeville@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
>	Bob Beville, Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR 97077


 In movies, these are refered to as "Buddy films" after the Jack Lemmon-
Walter Mathau film "Buddy Buddy" (though there were many films of this type
before that.)

In the mystery genre, the detective's companion is refered to as the "Watson"
though Watson himself was refered to as Holmes' "Boswell". (Johnson and
Boswell! There's your first literary duo!) :)

As for the first mystery novel, if we ignore such proto-mysteries as
the Daniel stories in the Apocrypha (not the lion's-den guy, another one)
it  is usually considered to be The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins, though
there are those who credit Bleak House by Charles Dickens. The first
mystery short stories are the Auguste Dupin stories (The Purloined Letter,
The Murders in the Rue Morge, The Mystery of Marie Roget) by Edgar Allen
Poe. These stories also contain the first "Watson", (who never tells
us his name!)

John A. Nickles
Standard Disclaimer: Purdue has their opinions, I have mine
"Louie, this looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship"
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature students
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:41:16 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

I said:

>>>>I'm not very average in anything, let alone reading (I do it),

resulting in much speculation as to my nature, to wit:

Ron Nadel:
>>>So, for the record, are you above or below the average - or are you
>>>above the average on somethings, and below the average on others so
>>>that on average you're average, or are you not average that way too?

Fiona Webster:
>>Maybe what he's saying, Ron, when he says that he's not very average,
>>is that he *is* very out of the ordinary.  Perhaps he means us to know
>>that he is an extremely discontinuous point, a freak of Nature, a wonder
>>so aberrant as to be called "monstrous," or perhaps a black swan, a
>>_lusus_naturale_, a queer fish, a _rara_avis_, a prodigy, a miracle.
>>Sometimes Mr. E-- may be, indeed, a veritable salvo of tasty strangeness!

John Farrell:
>You forgot to mention that he is a singularity, has no inverse, 
>second derivative, fixed point or canonical form, causes floating 
>point exceptions, is a lone wolf, is the black sheep of the family,
>and is like a bandicoot on a burnt ridge.

Actually, I've just your everyday, ordinary, sleep deprived physics
graduate student doing free-lance writing on the side (ObShameless-
Plug: next story "More Than Wise or Foolish" in MZBfm #17).  I'm sure,
should the emsemble set of those be assembled, I would be very close to
the expectation value.

John Farrell again:
>Gee, I gotta meet this guy.

Indeed, for he is experienced in persiflage, can snip-snap, flytes with
the best of them, flirts, flits, gossips, engages in bandiage, loves 
repartee, and can deal in repartee from now till kingdom con, or at
least until his thesaurus runs out.  An experience not to be missed.
Hint:  plying him with coffee helps.

Waitaminit.  "Bandicoot"??  ExCUSE me?

	the slightly huffy Mr. E-----
--

                           \  "Absence diminishes small loves and increases
LNH@physics.arizona.edu     \  great ones, as the wind blows out the candle 
insanity needs no disclaimer \ and blows up the bonfire." --La Rochefoucauld
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: the Novel of Ideas-- is it a good Idea?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 02:08:58 GMT

Marko Amnell says: 
l
	>Maybe Pynchon will come back out of his senses 


I certainly hope so. 


--Barbara taking leave of hers periodically 

 



Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ppetto@NCoast.ORG (Peter Petto)
Subject: Re: gold bug variations
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:20:30 GMT

Like whoever it was that started this thread, I read about _The Goldbug
Variations_ in the most recent Whole Earth Review.

Although every once and a while it gets a little boring, on the whole
I agree with their review.  It is a marvelous book, one of the best that
I have read in a long time.  The last book that had me as excited as
this one was _Vineland_, and the last one that tugged at my emotions as
deftly was _Owen Meaney_.

I highly recommend _The Goldbug Variations_ -- I'm starting in on Powers'
first book now, his second is next on my stack, and I look forward to
his future efforts.

---
Peter Petto          |       ppetto@ncoast.org
Bay Village, Ohio    |    73125.617@compuserve.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1006420@titan.ucc.umass.edu (If you want peace work for justice)
Subject: Re: literature students
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:49:35 GMT

In article <69081@hydra.gatech.EDU> barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard) writes:
>Have any of you literature students/professors been bothered by how many
>students spout formulae instead of thinking for themselves?  
>
>
>-- 
>Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
>"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
>--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_


In my opinion one shouldnt be so quick to blame the students in
everything, after all, they, like everyone else, are a product of 
their environment and life experiences. And in a setting where
they are continously expected to absorb passively 'knowledge',
well that will certainly influence the result.

Vera B.
From: acw@Apple.COM (Art Willis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Wodehouse  Question
Summary: List of pub dates for Wodehouse's Jeeves novels
Keywords: Wodehouse Jeeves Dates
Date: 1 Oct 92 05:34:07 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <WEBER-250992165453@129.197.66.236> WEBER@JEDI.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM (Kevin Weber) writes:
>Trying to find the chronological order of P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves books. If
>anybody out there could post or mail a chronological list it would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>
>Kevin Weber

According to the Penguin Wodehouse Companion by Richard Usborne,
the novels in which Jeeves appears and their dates of publication
are:

1934	Thank You, Jeeves
1934	Right Ho, Jeeves
1938	The Code of the Woosters
1947	Joy in the Morning
1949	The Mating Season
1953	Ring for Jeeves
1954	Jeeves and the Feudal Spirit
1960	Jeeves in the Offing
1963	Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves
1971	Much Obliged, Jeeves
1974	Aunts Aren't Gentlemen

There were also several books and collections of short stories
which contained one or more Jeeves stories.  There are several 
other titles for books featuring Jeeves since the American and 
British editions did not always have the same title, e.g. Right
Ho, Jeeves was also known as Brinkley Manor.  The Austrailian, New
Zealand, Canadian, etc. editions may have had still other titles.
Who knows?  As to Prof. McCarthy's point about the chronology within
the stories themselves, that's a more difficult question.  The stories
seldom (if ever) contain any dates.  Events from earlier stories 
are sometimes mentioned in later ones, so an industrious reader 
could construct at least a partial ordering; but I've never seen 
such a list.

Regards,

Art Willis
acw@apple.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books