HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Matti, Madayan, ... Was: On achcham, madam, naaNam and payirppu
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:49:50 GMT
Organization: U of Mn

In article <Bw83J8.B76@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) writes:

>After an all masculin discussion of the qualities of a women in
>ancient Indian society, 
>perhaps the masculin qualities, of
>matti, madayan, moodan, muttaaL, pEdhai, milEchchan
>could now be discussed.

>KS

Not a bad idea.

Starter: what (who) is milEchchan ?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.)
Subject: Re: Another question to netters.
Organization: U of Mn
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:13:07 GMT

In article <kat.718553240@sybok> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:

>In <1992Oct7.184029.1065@b30.ingr.com> shiva@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:

>>In article <durai.55@ORTTA> durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.) writes:
>>>
>>>> achcham  - bayam  (I am not sure if it's plain fear)
>>>  madam    - aRindhum aRiyaadhadhu pOl iruththal 
>>>> naanam   - vetkam
>>>  payirppu - ???    (I think some type of virtue..kaRpu related)
>>>

>>I have heard payirppu means the sense of 'uneasiness', 'koocham' that a
>>karpudai mangai feels when by accident a man's (other than her thuNaivan)
>>body touches hers. You cannot travel in Pallavan if you have payirppu !

>>Jagadisan Shivakumar

> It is nNaaNam-.

>        achcham-fear of losing chastity.

I think NaaNam is like vetkam (not shame), but more than that... an 
expression (?) or feeling that a woman is supposed to convey when she wants 
it and the same time feels it is unbecoming of her to express her want..  
that is not payiRpu... i think Jagadisan is correct... payiRpu is the mild 
indignation when dealing with "other" mens' advances..

I remember a song (i think it's film song)

  NaaNam sellenRathu   (go ahead)
  Achcham nillenRathu  (stop)

Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
From: venkatap@cis.uab.edu (Chandrasekaran Venkatapathy)
Subject: Re: Distortion in Meenan Vishnu Opposed
Organization: Comp. Science Dept, University of Alabama at Birmingham
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 01:48:46 GMT

In article <EeqVfsW00WB_0l12ZX@andrew.cmu.edu> Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh <rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Wait a minute. Mr. Thiagarajan says that Jeyalalitha is a Tamil.
>Mmmm......  I thought that she was a guinea pig that crawled out of slime.
>Anybody read 'Animal Farm?' She would be the perfect character from that book.
>Shrewdness, wickedness and sycophancy are just some of many traits
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	These are characteristics of all Dravidian parties.  U can also add
	Dr. MGR, DR. M Karunanidhi also in the list.  But u conveniently
	choose to ignore these people for the sole reason that they
	supported LTTE.  If u guys are people who upholds morals and
	ethics then condemn everyone.
	
	(Note: I am not a supporter of Jayalalitha).  
>of 'Madam Jeya.' This particular sycopant even has a cult following. Its a utterthat disgrace that this wicked witch enjoys the title 'Chief Minister.'
>
>anbudan,
>ungal thambi
From: viswanath@draco.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Bharathiyar Song
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:41:57 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.tamil
Organization: Rutgers University RUCS-Newark


> In article <92Oct14.140410.22898@acs.ucalgary.ca> nvenkate@acs.ucalgary.ca (Natarajan Venkateswaran) writes:
   and enquires about why Krishna is described as being dark coloured;
the very word Krishna in Sanskrit means 'black' or 'dark' as in
krishna paksha, the "black" phase of the moon.
P.V. Viswanath
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: raghu@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Raghu B)
Subject: Re: On achcham, madam, naaNam and payirppu
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 22:46:54 GMT

In <9210092325.AA15850@cec1.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>quality  . That `madam' was considered as a feminine quality

         A lot of stuff deleted........

>indicates the primitiveness of the Sangam culture.

> 4. payirppu : This word is not in usage and I don't know of
>any  common  meaning  of  this  Tamil word. This word really
>means `a state of uneasiness at the sight  or  hearing  any-
>thing  offensive - abhorrent feelings'. We take this to mean
>`delicacy' or `high chastity' or  `shrinking  from  what  is
>mean or vile' as the fourth feminine quality.

>                                         Thanks for reading,
>                                          - Sundara Pandian.
>                                     [  sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu ]
	Has "payirppu" got anything to do with
an excitement. In the sense, an excitement over hearing new things or 
passing on a feel of excitement. Sharing news or spreading 
news.  I find this quality in most of the modern women. May be.
I hope I am not mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong.

	"Achcham" basically refers to indecisiveness. I doubt whether
in olden days Women were given authority to take decisions. It refers
to the lack of courageness or boldness to take decisions. No one
could blame them because they were trained so by men.

	"Naanam" . Of course everyone knows that is "shyness".
It could be to strangers or to elders. It is basically out of respect
or out of excitement.

	I can never completely agree calling "madami" as  complete
"ignorance.". You can find from olden literature, that great kings
consult their wife too before taking major decisions. They would
consult each and every step they take on major political crisis.
In most of the court hearings , the Queen sits next to king.
And one can say that most of his decisions are influenced by
her.

	Expecting your comments on this.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Subject: Beneficiaries of caste divisions, past present and future
Originator: srini@acr
Reply-To: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (K.Srinivasan)
Organization: IREQ, Hydro-Quebec, QC, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:03:33 GMT

rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh) writes:

> Disliking Brahminism doesn't translate into hating Brahmins. Its pure
> and simple.

Brahmins and Brahminism mean different things to different people.
So when one expresses his like or dislike, it should go with
his perception of the term. It is not that pure and simple.
The following are a few.

1. Those who follow certain set of rules and regulation laid out in
certain ancient texts. (Very few of today's Brahmins qualify under this).

2. From TirukkuraL's definition: andhaNar enbOr .... (Many Brahmins
might qualify under this. In fact, many others will also qualify)

3. Those who stick on to some rituals, without the faintest idea, what it
means. There is nothing wrong in that, if it gives them some mental
satisfaction, and has no bad effect on the other people around them.
A good percentage of TN Brahmins might qualify under this.

4. Those who claim to have racial purity. (In my opinion, 0% of
Brahmins, for that matter any other group in Tamil region, qualify under this)

5. Those whose parents were Brahmin. (100% qualify under this).

> Brahminism has divided Tamils along caste lines. What it has
> contributed to the culture, it has been undone by the divisive nature.

But about dividing Tamils along caste lines, one should point the finger
at those, for whom it was designed to benefit.

Dividing Tamils along caste lines in ancient times:--
Some Brahmins AS WELL AS some others could have been the beneficiaries.
It is easy to see there is not much evidence today among the Brahmins of
any such large economic benefit to the group as a whole, in spite of a
higher education level.

Dividing Tamils along caste lines in today's times:--
Nobody would name them as the beneficiaries.

In my opinion, those responsible for the caste based divisions, are those
who stand to benefit from it, in the past, present and future.

K. Srinivasan at Hydro Quebec.   srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.)
Subject: Re: On achcham, madam, naaNam and payirppu
Organization: U of Mn
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:18:51 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.203243.12490@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> raghu@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Raghu B) writes:

>       I agree to the fact that Madamai is not complete ignorance.
>But the meaning you have said is not right too. One will try to
>denounce women like this. I hope honorable lady members of the
>net will respond right to the above statement by Appadurai.

>	
>                               - Unmai virumbi,

>                                       Raghu, B


Well, I never expected flames for that posting.  I never intended any "
mattam thattudhal" on my posting.  I was only expressing my confidence over 
my views on what "madam" meant.

As I said, I am not able to immediately recollect appropriate references to 
support my views.

"aRindhum aRiyaadhadhu pOl iruththal" is not bad quality.  What it means is 
a strategic way of thinking, which in my opinion will be useful to "aadavar" 
as well.  It is not even fiegning ignorance.  Its subtler than that.  (how 
confusing can I get ?!)  

It means that women with tons of "madam" in them , usually know when to 
remain silent and when not to.   (This is not demeaning at all!)

(should i flame here .. nah...)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: Re: Another question to netters.
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:07:20 GMT

In <1992Oct7.184029.1065@b30.ingr.com> shiva@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:

>In article <durai.55@ORTTA> durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.) writes:
>>
>>> achcham  - bayam  (I am not sure if it's plain fear)
>>  madam    - aRindhum aRiyaadhadhu pOl iruththal 
>>> naanam   - vetkam
>>  payirppu - ???    (I think some type of virtue..kaRpu related)
>>

>I have heard payirppu means the sense of 'uneasiness', 'koocham' that a
>karpudai mangai feels when by accident a man's (other than her thuNaivan)
>body touches hers. You cannot travel in Pallavan if you have payirppu !

>Jagadisan Shivakumar

 It is nNaaNam-.

        achcham-fear of losing chastity.
From: udhi@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Udayan Subramanian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: padi ......
Date: 9 Oct 1992 10:29:42 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Keywords: padi

The poet should be either Bharadhidhasan or Pattukkottai Kalyanasundharam 

(I wish I followed whatever is said in the poem!)

- Udayan
Organization: Senior, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 01:56:50 -0400 
From: Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh <rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Few Jokes

Great jokes. Post more please.

-thambi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.sri-lanka
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: Re: Bharathiyar Song
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:30:34 GMT

In <Bw7wwF.3nA@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:

>In article <1992Oct14.174157.1@draco.rutgers.edu>, viswanath@draco.rutgers.edu writes:
>> 
>> > In article <92Oct14.140410.22898@acs.ucalgary.ca> nvenkate@acs.ucalgary.ca (Natarajan Venkateswaran) writes:
>>    and enquires about why Krishna is described as being dark coloured;
>> the very word Krishna in Sanskrit means 'black' or 'dark' as in
>> krishna paksha, the "black" phase of the moon.
>> P.V. Viswanath

>Yes Krishna means black in Skt. but it comes from Tamil root "karu or kari".
>In the Vedas ( as per Vedic Index) there is no mention of Lord Krishna
>( understandably, since Krishna is supposed to be a later arrival) but
>there is one occurence of Krsna meaning a black bird in Veda and it is
>most probably the bird referred in Tamil as kari-kuruvi.

                    
    krishnaa is from kaNNaa. kaNNan is referred to as mayOn in
sangam literature. Prakrit kaNNa is kaNhaa. (I read somewhere)
Even vishnu is really "vinhu" referring to the sky-blue. vin-sky in
tamizh.

anban
kathiravan 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:2762 soc.culture.indian:33680
From: rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Distortion in Meenan Vishnu Opposed
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:40:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EeqVfsW00WB_0l12ZX
Organization: Senior, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Wait a minute. Mr. Thiagarajan says that Jeyalalitha is a Tamil.
Mmmm......  I thought that she was a guinea pig that crawled out of slime.
Anybody read 'Animal Farm?' She would be the perfect character from that book.
Shrewdness, wickedness and sycophancy are just some of many traits
of 'Madam Jeya.' This particular sycopant even has a cult following. Its a utterthat disgrace that this wicked witch enjoys the title 'Chief Minister.'

anbudan,
ungal thambi
From: partha@mse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: ANY MUTHU COMICS FANS AROUND?
Date: 17 Oct 92 00:12:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44251
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering

Any Muthu Comics fans out there?

It used to be my favorite comics when I was a kid.

I lived in Sivakasi for a couple of years when these comics were
published from there.

Do these characters ring a bell?
Irumbuk kai maayaavi, Lawrence-David, Johny Nero

The sketches in these comics were perfect. The stories were
entertaining too. 

My favorite Maayaavi story was "Paadaala Nagaram" where a Sultan
kidnaps scientists to an underground city to build weapons and
take over the world. He comes to know about Maayaavi and gets
him kidnapped there. But Maayaavi has the ability to vanish when
brought into contact with electricity. Finally the whole city
is destroyed. Maayaavi resembled Roger Moore a lot.

My favorite Lawrence-Davidstory was "Kaattril Karaintha Kappalgal".

The best one of Johny Nero was "Kolaikkaram"

I as well as many of my friends used to read these comics regularly.
I even used to have a collection once.

Partha sarathy
From: partha@mse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: On HATE "POEMS" on Brahmins
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:54:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44237
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering


	One of the greatest things in this country is freedom
of expression. This net was formed as a forum for literary
discussions. Unfortunately it has become a page for hatemail.
This is in response to the two "poems" that Kathiravan and
Meenan Vishnu have posted on "Pappaans". It is unfortunate
that freedom of expression is being abused in this fashion.

	If education hasn't opened your eyes, then it is a big
waste. If education can only accumulate hatred in your hearts
then I wish someone else had the chance to education instead
of you people.

	I am amazed by the vehemence in their attitude.

Partha sarathy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
From: thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT)
Subject: Re: Distortion in Meenan Vishnu Opposed
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:17:16 GMT



In article <geqOccS00WBOQ2pWxH@andrew.cmu.edu>, Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh <rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes...
>>Let me ask you this. Let us assume that all brahmins are aryans, came from a
>>foreign country and settled in TN. If a sri-lankan tamil refugee can seek
>>asylum in Canada and have equal rights as a canadian citizen why not all the
>>immigrants to TN who came hundreds of years ago be given equal rights?
> 
>I don't like Brahmanis and the anyone who upholds it. That category of

upholds what? you do not agree with the above?

>people include some Brahamans and upper-caste Tamils. I despise them
>all. It is because of people like these Tamils are divided. You my

Oh I did not know that. Anything else from LTTE official ref guide?

>friend has all the distintions of a 'spoiler and a divider.' Where would
>you 'fit in'?

Atleast I will not fit in 'terrorist' category.

> 
>thambi
> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: shiva@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar)
Subject: Re: Another question to netters.
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:40:29 GMT

In article <durai.55@ORTTA> durai@ORTTA (Appadurai V.) writes:
>
>> achcham  - bayam  (I am not sure if it's plain fear)
>  madam    - aRindhum aRiyaadhadhu pOl iruththal 
>> naanam   - vetkam
>  payirppu - ???    (I think some type of virtue..kaRpu related)
>

I have heard payirppu means the sense of 'uneasiness', 'koocham' that a
karpudai mangai feels when by accident a man's (other than her thuNaivan)
body touches hers. You cannot travel in Pallavan if you have payirppu !

Jagadisan Shivakumar


Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Tamil literature
Date: 14 Oct 92 22:54:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.8erFKhC00WB_4Tio9Q
Organization: Senior, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Taken from Encylopedia Brittannica. The older edition.
Pg. 648.

Tamil is perhaps the best-known of the Dravidian languages spoken in South India. Apart from Sanskrit, its literature is the oldest in India and, if epigraphical sources are included, may be said to commence in the 3rd century B.C with some fragmentary cave graffiti found near Madurai.

Period of the "Sangam"

The earliest Tamils writings that may properly be termed literatute are those of the sangam, or "literary acadamy." Traditio, much of it doubtless fanciful,
tells of a sangam at Madurai which grew up during the middle ages, where a number of anthologies of secular court poetry were compliled-the Eight Anthologies,
Ettuttokai, and the Ten Songs, Pattupattu. Possibly unique in early Indian literature, which is almost entirely religios, these poems are concerned with two main topcs, love and and the praise of kings and their deeds. Many, especially on the latter subject, display great freshness and vigor and are singularly free fro, the literary conceits of much of the early and medieval liertatures of India.

Since they are secular, these peoms are also free from the complex mythical allusions  which are such an outstanding feature of most Indian art forms. Sangam poetry seems to be at least partly based on personal experience; in this respect it is curiously modern and unlike anything else to be found in India before     ;the late 19th century. From references to trade with the west and other internalevidence, it seems likely that these peoms belong to the first four centuries A.D., when trade with Rome via th




e middle eats was still active.
Paripatal, possibly the last of these anthologies, marks the transition to the next, more formal, stereotyped style, for it includes both religious poetry, abounding in the usual allusions,a nd still in the older vein, some fine descriptive poetry, which depicts the course of the Vaigai river, on which Madurai stands.


.....next material under 'Sixth to Ninth Centuries.'

thambi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kumar@syd.dit.CSIRO.AU (V.R.Kumar)
Subject: Re: Marriages
Keywords: soc.culture.tamil
Organization: CSIRO Division of Info Tech, Sydney, Australia
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 22:48:50 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.144728.5297@b30.ingr.com> shiva@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:
>In article <Bvv7JF.556@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) writes:
>>In article <2145@grivel.une.edu.au> gseshadr@neumann.une.edu.au (Govind) writes:
>
>
>When we take any issue such as dowry problem, we unfortunately have to bring
>in the caste system. I know most of us would like to see castes disappear but
>it is going to be tough. Lifestyles, cusines, customs have evolved around caste
>divisions and each caste in Tamilnadu today represents a sub-culture. If you
>asked me to comment on dowry trends in Tamilnadu, I can only talk about brahmins. I am quite ignorant of practices in other communities. The definition of dowry
>itself is hazy. In brahmin context, that refers to the cash paid by bride's family to groom's family. I would like to add to this the demands made by groom's

[stuff deleted .........]

>
>The increase in 'love marriages' (do to some reason, I do not like that term,
>any suggestions nettors?) is also contributing to eradication of dowry.
>
>Jagadisan Shivakumar


Agreed Jagadisan. Love or intercase marriage is one way of preventing
dowry. Things have become so bad that even if the groom's family refuse
to accept any dowry, the society start suspecting the groom by 
commenting that there should be some problem wiith the groom and hence
the groom's family, inorder to hide it, are not asking for any dowry !!!
The bride's family also think atleast 10 times before agreeing in this
case. 

Anpudan,

V R Kumar
 
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------
   V.R.KUMAR, Knowledge-Based Systems Program
   CSIRO Division of Information Technology                         
   6 Giffnock Avenue, North Ryde, NSW 2113, Australia
From: nish@cv4.chem.purdue.edu (Nishantha I.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Accord of 1987 : - Repost [re: memoirs of Jayawardane]
Date: 12 Oct 92 02:20:45 GMT
Organization: My own

In article <1992Oct8.151826.24374@cis.uab.edu> venkatap@cis.uab.edu (Chandrasekaran Venkatapathy) writes:
>In article <ceovBIK00Uh_87lI1L@andrew.cmu.edu> rs6x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ranjith Ravindiran Suresh) writes:
>>>This shows the serious under-estimation of LTTE's strength by India, which
>		 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>was one reason why it could not defeat it later.  It is said that the RAW
>>
>>They did it again after the anti-LTTE crackdown in Tamil Nadu. Even the
>>SL defense minister went along the enthusiasm by promising to solve the
>>probem in 2 months by a 'secret plan.' India Today concocted a scenario
>					^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of LTTE's demise.
>>
>>Well, its been more than an year.
>>
>>-thambi 
>
>	Guy!! What are u up to?  U just want to brag that LTTE is
>	the supreme force and most idealistic force.  I dont want
>	to comment on that. But dont make falst claims on other
>	issues.  Guess u are living in a world of fantasy.  Wake up!!!
>
>- chandra V.
	>>
		Chandra I don't mean to chide you or anything but since 
	when did you hear anything bad about the third reich from 
	Gobbels?
		Like wise don't expect the truth from the LTTE Gobbels !!
		sincerely
		Nish.    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: venkatap@cis.uab.edu (Chandrasekaran Venkatapathy)
Subject: Re: padi ......
Keywords: padi
Organization: Comp. Science Dept, University of Alabama at Birmingham
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 06:05:15 GMT

In article <thai.718599101@aries> thai@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Sankaran Thayumanavan) writes:
>
>my dad sent me this cutting recently.    
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>noolaipadi - muraipadi 
>noolaipadi
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>could you guys guess who might have possibly written this?       
>

	Just a wild guess!!  Is it Solomon Pappiah? (Prof, American
	College, Madurai)

	- Chandrasekaran  V.