HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open letter to NextDevelopers (long)(Flamebait)
From: scott@nic.gac.edu (Scott Hess)
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:30:11
Organization: Gustavus Adolphus College
In-reply-to: jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu's message of Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:35:03 GMTLines: 38

In article <Brrtyt.8vu@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
	jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens) writes:
>Sorry, but I don't think that that many users are that trustworthy
>and ready to spend money on software to give them fully workable
>apps, even in they are only fully workable for a limited time.  I
>think that companies who say that the NeXT isn't a good place to
>make profits are seeing a bunch of educational poor-folk who would
>rather pirate their app from their school's NeXT computer than band
>together to purchase one copy.

Here, I think, we come to the crux of the entire thread.  I, for
one, am unwilling to turn my application into a fortress in order
to force educational customers to purchase it.  If these people
are really the slimeballs that you cast them as, then such
fortification isn't going to do me much good in the end, anyhow.
They'll just rip off the fully capable version and skip the limited
demo entirely.

I have _positive_ evidence that if you give people more trust than
they deserve, some of them will register your software.  Some will
register it even when they don't have a real need for it!  I also
have positive evidence that if you trust them less than they deserve,
there are a number of people who will not purchase your software,
even if it's insanely useful to their work.  I've been heavily
involved with computers for nearly a decade, and strenuously involved
with the NeXT for more than three years, and I've yet to see evidence
that not trusting people will sell more software.

Perhaps I have a hopelessly naive and unworkable view of the world.
I also don't have any ulcers, and I enjoy my work.  I think these
things are connected.  I'll maintain my view for as long as it
keeps on working ...

Later,
--
scott hess <shess@ssesco.com>  <Who's now in a programming Berserker-frenzy>
12901 Upton Avenue South, #326  Burnsville, MN 55337 (612) 895-1208 Anytime!
<I want to become so famous that people buy tapes of me reading source code>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: schnuffi.weigele.de!martin (Martin Weigele)
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Organization: M. Weigele
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:31:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul18.044311.22753@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
marcu@leland.Stanford.EDU (Marc Albert Ullman) writes:
> I was just curious if anyone else was somewhat dismayed/alarmed by the
> fact that it now costs $225.00 to ask NeXT a technical question (by
> e-mail no less).  A recent mailing to (presumably all) registered developers
> states:
> 

In Germany, the situation is even more ridiculous. NeXT Germany has apparently
closed down their local technical support entirely. It seems NeXT is letting  
down their promoters entirely.

-- 
Martin Weigele, Kapellenweg 32, D-W-5300 Bonn 2
phone +49 228 333252 home, +49 228 9866385 office
email: martin@weigele.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lemson@fnbc.com (David Lemson)
Subject: Re: RightBrain ad in Fall '92 NeXTWORLD
Reply-To: lemson@fnbc.com
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:19:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.222227.533@Trirex.COM> mmelling @Trirex.com(Michael  
Mellinger) writes:
> They might be better off spending the money on a two page add in a  
> magazine like Publish. Everyone in the NeXT community will know about  
> PasteUp.  It's the people in the non-NeXT community that need to be  
> informed.
> 
Nah, I wouldn't make that assumption.  I know of plenty of people with  
NeXTs who don't have any source to read usenet and their sole source of  
information is the NeXT Support Bulletin and NeXTWorld magazine.  (scary  
thought, eh?)
I vote for a small ad in NeXTWorld (I mean, hey, if the magazine is going  
to give them free advertising in the form of a page review of it, why not  
just put in a smaller ad - of course, they probably only put the review in  
on the condition that they put in the huge display ad, I don't want to  
know about the politics of the magazine) and a large ad in a more widely  
read magazine for whatever target audience they're going for with PasteUp.

--
David Lemson                                           (312) 732-4741
FNBC Sys Admin (Summer) UIUC NeXT Campus Consultant(rest of the time)
E-mail to: lemson@fnbc.com                          NeXTMail accepted
From: maurices@spock.dis.cccd.edu (Maurice Shihadi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: $$$ NeXT Developer Support $$$
Date: 26 Jul 92 00:51:50 GMT
Organization: Coast Community College District, Costa Mesa, CA

In article <1992Jul19.023113.7120@leland.Stanford.EDU> marcu@leland.Stanford.EDU (Marc Albert Ullman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul18.230036.1228@digifix!uunet.ca> sanguish@digifix.com writes:
>>Nick Christopher writes
>>> I have always felt that NeXT should have a pay as you go support
>>> method for people who don't have easy access to other forms of
>>> support. However, I was shocked at the pricing - $225 per!! And I have
>>> heard MANY complaints from skilled developers as to the quality of
>>> answers NeXT gives. Several people have gotton just plain wrong
>>> answers. 
>>
>>	Perhaps someone can post the text of this notice.
>>
>>	I would hope that it is instead $225 per year.
>
>Nope! You heard right.  $225 per "incident".  Or $910 for a "Developer
>Hotline 6-pack" or for those with lots of problems, a cool $3500 for a
>one year hotline subscription for *two* designated developer contacts
>within the customer's NeXTSTEP software development team (additonal
>contacts okay at $500 each).  Similar ($225/$1300/$5000) pricing holds
>for system admin. support as well.  Looking at those prices, you sure 
>wouldn't get the impression that NeXT's are easy to program or administer
>(or maybe it's "you better hope NeXT's are easy to program and administer".)
>
>--Marc

Wait.. Wait.. Backup,
Now what was that reason we go to developer camp for?
I've been saving and waiting for instruction on 3.0;
what kind of incentive do we have now?  Heck, I could stick
to learning from tutorials in the hardcopy tech manuals.  
Am I wrong? Hope so.

maurices
From: neubert@cuphub.cup.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Cube Owners -- Are we shut out from RISC Upgrades?
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:16:41 GMT
Organization: California University of Pennsylvania, California, PA

In article <1992Jul28.135719.5412@fnbc.com>, lemson@fnbc.com (David Lemson) writes:
> In article <Bs2JFJ.J5z@atherton.com> dlw@atherton.com (Remo Williams)  
> writes:
>> This drives at the heart of existing customer base satisfaction. This is  
>> something that the minicomputer vendors understand quite well. Even SUN  
> I  
>> believe did the same thing to woo its SUN3/xxx base to the SPARC line.  
> Does  
>> NeXT have the resolve to do this sort of thing for its customer base?
> 
> But remember, Sun did this to try to ease the pain of their migration away  
> from the Sun 3 line.  They are actually dropping support for that  
> architecture in new OS releases!  That's a little different from NeXT,  
> whose new OS will run on 030 machines (no comment on the useability - the  
> important thing to note is that they haven't alienated those people with  
> old machines like Sun has)
> 
> --
> David Lemson                                           (312) 732-4741
> FNBC Sys Admin (Summer) UIUC NeXT Campus Consultant(rest of the time)
> E-mail to: lemson@fnbc.com                          NeXTMail accepted

There seems to be an assumption by some users that computer
vendors should support every architecture (h/w and s/w) they ever
produced...forever!  If so, IBM would still support 1401s and have
the latest MVS running on it; DEC would have VMS running on its
earliest PDPs, Finder/etc would be on Apple IIs, etc.  There is a
word in our lexicon called progress...some day, NeXT (*IF* it survives
that long) will have the "luxury" of obsoleting a line of h/w and/or
s/w.

John Neubert
From: alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C for other environments (long)
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:03:34 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Jul24.063330.9585@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> helz@ecn.purdue.edu (Randall A Helzerman) writes:
> Could you or someone elaborate on how late binding helps here?  I've been 
> developing applications in C++ for 3 years, and have never really ran into 
> a situation where late binding would have simplified the programming
> that much.  

heres two examples - I am sure there are others,

There is a real nice screen saver called BackSpace, it is extendable in that
people can write modules (objects really) that obey a certain protocal
(respond to specific messages). Modules typically animate the display.
Late binding lets you just drop object modules of your choice in a directory and
at init time they are recognized and listed in a menu.  at run time, they can be
sent messages.  this means the application (just a screen save here, but could be any)
can be extended by the user in his own environment.  The user doesnt need the source
to the app to write the extended module - they arent compiled at the same time.

a more serious example of the same idea is the Interface Builder (IB) itself.
you can develop your own set of reusable objects, make a pallette so people
can graphically create instances of your new class in IB, make inspectors so
they can set the (custom) attributes of those instances in IB and you have just
extended the IB to work seamlessly with your custom class - without ever seeing
the source of any part of IB.  (by the way, IB can work with any custom class
without requiring this customization which is worth it for classes you use alot)

then there is delegation, which allows objects to send notification
messages to other objects (that may not exist when the first class is written).
this way you dont have to define a subclass of window (which may not be really
appropriate to your abstraction) just to get notified before the window closes
Cuts way down on complexity and the need to use multiple inheritance.
Delegation is a powerful technique for making classes reusable under wider circumstances.

now what about remote objects?

late binding is very useful.
-- 
-------------------------------
Alex Blakemore alex@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: Open letter to NextDevelopers (long)(Flamebait)
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:31:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.112235.4683@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess  
Anderson) writes:
> Son, you have a real bad attitude.  Most people *will* pay
> for tools that help them get their jobs done.  Most people
> recognize and respect the work that goes into a good product
> and associate value with that work; they are quite willing
> and generally very conscientious about compensating a vendor
> for that work.  Your attitude, on the other hand, assumes
> that others are as venal and mean-spirited as your remarks
> suggest you might be.  I take back the Bush/Quayle remark
> and give you Brian Mulrooney.

IYHO, of course.  How would you support the claim that most
people will pay for the software?  How would you reconcile
that claim with the known history of software-pirating
in the industry?  Do you really think that many people
haven't pirated/stolen unprotected NeXT software such as
Diagram and WP?

> Coulda fooled me.  So why are you shouting?

Perhaps because you are deliberately writing in a
patronizing, insulting fashion, prodding him as much as
possible? 

--
Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
New Haven, CT
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mmelling @Trirex.com(Michael Mellinger)
Subject: Re: RightBrain ad in Fall '92 NeXTWORLD
Organization: Trirex Systems Inc.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:22:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.065854.1811@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon  
Van Huizen) writes:
> In article <1992Jul20.181430.29015@liveware.com> attila@liveware.com  
> writes:
> > 
> > Hey, at a price of around 4 thousand dollars
> > for a centerfold double page layout, I guess they have some dough
> > to toss around.  Lets hope sales for them continue to reflect
> > the advert image. ;')
> > 
> 
> It cost 'em a HELL of a lot more than $4k!

They might be better off spending the money on a two page add in a  
magazine like Publish. Everyone in the NeXT community will know about  
PasteUp.  It's the people in the non-NeXT community that need to be  
informed.

-Mike
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: OO and PS
Reply-To: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:45:26 GMT

> >> [About using PostScript for oo programming].

Isn't that what NeWS was all about?  Adding the concept (and syntax) of classes  
and instances to PostScript?  The main problem, I think, was that doing so much  
calculation inside PostScript made the bugger slow as molasses, since they made  
it the entire window system+AppKit combined.  However, would not some of the  
NeWS lessons and constructs be useful for developing an object-oriented "PS++"?
-Ernie P.

--
Ernest N. Prabhakar                  Caltech High Energy Physics
Member, League for Programming Freedom (league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
CaJUN President        NeXTMail:ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu
"...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 5:13a
#import <std/disclaimer.h>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais)
Subject: Re: X11 must die (was Re: IRIX vs. NeXTStep).
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:45:41 GMT

In article <KHERA.92Jul22103701@thneed.cs.duke.edu> khera@cs.duke.edu (Vivek  
Khera) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.022009.27347@math.ucla.edu> barry@arnold.math.ucla.edu  
(Barry Merriman) writes:
> 
>    Gee, sounds good. Future looks bright for X. Say, by the
>    way, how many _years_ was that between R4 and R5---4 or 5?
> 
> no.  it was about 2 years.
The real question is has the X development environment gotten significantly
better in that time?  NeXTSTEP has shown much improvement over the years.

pasc
--
Pascal Chesnais, Research Specialist, Electronic Publishing Group
Media Laboratory, E15-351, 20 Ames Street, Cambridge, Ma, 02139 (617) 253-0311
email: lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (NeXT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: captain@spock.cs.wisc.edu (Andrew T. Foster)
Subject: Re: RightBrain ad in Fall '92 NeXTWORLD
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 01:24:44 GMT


	Howdy,

  In this months issue of Publish, RightBrain's PasteUp program is  
featured on one of the first few pages. The article talks about the power  
of Unix Workstations, such as the NeXT, that have the tools that people in  
Publishing need. They also go on to mention Adobe Illustrator 3.1 and  
Appsoft Image. There was also a picture, similar to the one in NeXTWORLD,  
of PasteUp.
  I think that these people ARE paying attention to what is coming. I  
think it is rather a good idea of RightBrain to put a little ad in  
Publish. Certain software and hardware for the NeXT has been featured in  
Publish in past. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have some more.

	- C


--------------------------------------------------------------------
NeXT Campus Consultant - University of Wisconsin, Madison
captain@spock.cs.wisc.edu - NeXTMail Accepted
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen)
Subject: Re: Define a new platform . . 
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 23:56:07 GMT

Peer Landa writes
> 
> SGI's president & CEO Ed McCracken said this about NeXT's CEO Steve Jobs:
>
> I think the NeXT machines tend to be very low-performance machines  
> compared to what our customer want. But you admire the fact that he's doing  
> some good stuff there, and it is a new kind of platform. It's through  
> experimentation and new ideas that things happen."

Amen. I have always been impressed with SGI hardware and commitment to
scientific computing needs (graphics, multiprocessors, distributed software
architecture). Up through three years ago the weakness, IMHO, was their
software ensemble - it crashed often, development was slow, they seemed
to be unaware of productivity issues, and they were still playing with
NeWS.

NeXT has the superior software still - in the terms McCracken defines.
SGI has the superior hardware - at least what is on the market. I think
there is a marriage in there that I for one would applaud loudly and in
public. SGI's volume is the only worry.

Mark R. Thomsen
From: zenon@resonex.com (Zenon Fortuna)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT to ship128MB EO's as replacements for 3.5" drives--Nice thought?
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:54:13 GMT
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <5650@nosc.NOSC.MIL> moose@moose.nosc.mil writes:
>Does anyone invision the floppy drives that ship with NeXT's to be  
>replaced with128MB EO's(3.5")??  I know that the cost per MB is  
>cheaper than floppies, and the drives are much faster than regular  
>floppies(28ms).
>
>I think that this would be a bold and wonderful move.  I just wish that  
>some dear company would really mass market those drives.  I am  
>sure that they could put one of these in every machine at a more  
>affordable rate and set a new standard.  I would definitely run out and  
>buy one if it were priced in the a more reasonable range. (Around $650  
>would be fair.)  I have seen the inner workings, and there is not $1500  
>worth of hardware there.  
>
>The drives are really small, and are getting faster and achieving  
>higher format capacities.  In the 17 Jul MacWeek, there is an add for  
>a higher capacity 256 drive(not done with compression either).   
>NeXT's dream to use the EO technology failed because the drives  
>were too slow.  3.5" EO's could really set a new standard and  
>revitalize that earlier "vision thing" NeXT started.  I wish that NeXT  
>would embrace this idea and put that technology to work in the NeXT  
>community.  They are creating new standards in every other facet of  
>the computing environment.  Why don't they jump on this one.  Have  
>users purchase a 3.5 DOS/MAC floppy as an external.  If they have  
>to have that.  At $49.00/128MB's there would be a lot of happy users. 
>
>-Anyway it is just an idea........

IMHO it is not quite promising idea. The IMPORTANCE of the floppy is to be
a window to PC's and Mac's. In addition, the price of EO drives is still
much higher than the floppy drives. But to have the EO as external unit
is great. Pity, that one cannot power off/on the external SCSI units
on demand.

	-Z.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: samurai@uriel.cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy Brockbank)
Subject: Re: Technicolor Wait Cursor? noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!
Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:51:31 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.173022.3225@cubetech.com> andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew  
Loewenstern) writes:
> In article <1992Jul20.210500.7046@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  
jmilhoan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason T Milhoan) writes:
> >In article <1992Jul19.181746.22644@redbrick.com> jfr@redbrick.com (Jon  
Rosen) w
> >rites:
> >>   which when only the edges can be seen).  If you want to go blind reading
> >>   9 pt type in menus, go right ahead (although those of us who have  
reached
> >>   the ripe old age of 40++ may want to try and dodge the reading glasses
> >>   for a bit longer and use something like 24 pt).  All of this is so
> >>   patently obvious to me that it is amazing that anyone objects.
> >>
> >>   Jon Rosen
> >
> >So what happens if you increase the font size 300 percent?  The size of the 
> >'window' will have to increase as well.  Just imagine trying to run  
newsgrazer 
> >with  the dimensions 3 times the size.  I realize you might have been 
> >overexaggerating, but scalable fonts in menus or the GUI itself can lead to 
> >problems like this.
> 
> nahh...  I don't think it will be a problem.  I have all of my fonts
> set at obnoxiouosly large sizes and there are no problems.


I was trying a 64 point Copperplate font for my system font, and it
was surreal. The main menu, with one submenu filled the screen, and the
title bars of the windows were HUGE. The rest of the window stayed small
though.

- db

--
-------
I always thought that NeXTStep was very good in its approach to color since
the tasteless are protected from their own stupidity. -- Jason Breckenridge
(I know Jason, Jason is a close personal friend of mine, and I am not Jason!)
From: banshee@cats.ucsc.edu (Wailer at the Gates of Dawn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT Soft PC
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:57:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz; Committee for Open Access Computing
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


	Could someone mail me about Soft PC on a next?  Does it support 386
protected mode emulation?  Approx what speed (286, 386/25, etc) does it run
on an 040 based next?  What levels of graphics support are there?  Can you
run windows programs in std mode?  Enhanced mode?  Thanks.

-- 
The Wailer at the Gates of Dawn              | banshee@cats.UCSC.EDU       |
Just who ARE you calling a FROOFROO Head?    |                             |
DoD#0667  "Just a friend of the beast."      | banshee@ucscb.UCSC.EDU      |
2,3,5,7,13,17,19,31,61,89,107,127,521,607....| banshee@ucscb.BITNET        |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy