HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mesm@netcom.com (Mary E. S. Morris)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: What Exactly is ENTRY LEVEL ?
Date: 22 Aug 92 00:39:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

kumar@ra.csc.ti.com (Sundeep Kumar) writes:
: What is the criteria by which Headhunters/Employers Judge wether
: a resume is "ENTRY LEVEL" or not ? Is the following a hard and fast rule :
: 
: 	been in school for the past two years ---> Entry Level  ???

Sorry to say, but yes fresh out of school is entry level. 
: 
: If this is true I know more entry level persons that have very comfortable
: jobs than "experienced ones" ! Most people doing jobs are enrolled
: in some school in some program. ( At least Computer Science BS's).
: Also is the following Combo. Entry level :
: 
: 	4 Years BS + 3 Years Job( After BS) + MS (2 Years) + Co-OPs in MS ??

This job would not be entry level IF the 3 years job is directly related
to the job that the person is applying for. In general, recruiters want
to know how much experience you have doing exactly the same thing as the
the job that they are placing you in.
For example, if you have been a System Admin on a Novell network,
you are still entry level for a System Admin on a Banyan network.
Unfortunatly, I get bored really easy, so I just barely make it out
of entry-level status before I go for an even heftier job.

Also, usually the following is true for most computer positions:
1 year or less OJE (on the job experience) = entry-level or junior
1-3 years is a regular person
3-5 years would be a Lead or Senior person

After 6 years or so, you had either be a guru, or go into management...

Mary
--
Mary E. S. Morris    |  The future exists first in imagination, then
mesm@netcom.COM      |  in will, then in reality. -- Galivan Burwell
=====================================================================
Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA
From: commike@lgc.com (Alan Commike)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Help!
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:24:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: lgc.1992Aug12.172448.18451
Organization: Landmark Graphics Corporation

In article <1992Aug7.160557.3943@tc.fluke.COM> kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes:
>commike@lgc.com (Alan Commike) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug4.141714.29792@eskimo.celestial.com> mann@eskimo.celestial.com (Tom Mann) writes:
>>>... have it
>>>printed on GOOD paper.
>>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>why do you care what kind of paper stuff is printed on!?
>>
>>isn't it the content that you're interested in? most places that i've been 
>>it's the secretary or HR that does the screening and sends copies of resumes 
>>off to hiring managers. i've always told people not to waste their time or
>>money on fancy paper. 
>
>Let's see, 500 resumes in a pile.  One entry-level programming job.
>How many have four years of college? 499.
>How many have a CSci degree?         492.  Jeez, they're all identical.
>How many have relevant job experience?  Oops, 2, let's not use that criterion.
>492 resumes.  I need a hard worker who does good work.  All I have is
>resumes.  Do any of these resumes qualify as "good work"?  Wait, here's
>one, two, three typeset and on beige paper.  They look really sharp.
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...and here we see why america is falling behind in the global market-place.


i still say don't bother with fancy paper. would you want to work for 
someone that hires people on their choice of colored paper??

	...alan


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Commike                                     Landmark Graphics, Houston Tx.
commike@lgc.com                                  (713) 579-4673 

The ultimate error correcting compiler would generate a Database
Management System out of ... nothing!
	- Josef Moellers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: saarinen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sirpa Saarinen)
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 18:17:59 GMT

nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

[stuff about vacation time deleted]

>   While I hate to be a trouble-maker (right, Peter, whatever you say)
>   I just have to ask:  why is vacation time an issue?  TANSTAAFL, and
			 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   all that --  SOMEONE has to pay for that European employee's wages
>   when he's partying on the coast of Spain or fishing in some lake
>   in Sweden or painting his house in a suburb of Munich.  More
>   vacation time translates directly into higher labor costs or less
>   productivity.  Look at Europe's cost-of-living sometime or their
>   share of the world market in any of the a number of major in-
>   dustrial sectors.   Personally I'd rather have fewer vacation days 
>   and a stronger economy or more profitable company, than lots of
>   vacation time and watch my nation's economy or my company's 
>   fade to harder-working competitors.


Vacation time can be counted towards "quality of life". Quality
of life does not always include money or a strong economy.

Another thing to point out is that maybe some Americans cannot have long
vacations, since they might not be able to afford them (wages have
gone down in real value) or they might not know what to do during
30 days without work (there are many bored people here in the USA).
These are completely different issues of course.
From: infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew  Infante)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: need advice
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:12:22 GMT
Distribution: misc.jobs.misc
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <50@cnmhnet.UUCP> keithg@cnmhnet.UUCP (keith garrard) writes:
>In article <ZHAO.92Aug4214413@mykene.nmsu.edu> zhao@nmsu.edu writes:
>>I prefer the position in company B, what I am going to do?
>>Thanks,
>>ZiZi
>
>It continuously amazes me when people claim to have this dilemma.
>What should they do?  THEY SHOULD TAKE THE JOB BEING OFFERED!  
>I mean, don't these people know how hard it is out there to even
>get ONE job offer?  Take the job, and if the second job offer comes 
>through, take it!  The old days of loyalty to the company are gone.
>People have to watch out for number one nowadays.  Sure, the first 
>company will be upset, but another aspect to this is that you could
>tell the first company that you got a call from the second company
>with an offer that is hard to refuse.  By being honest with them, you
>could possibly get a raise or a promotion out of it, because they 
>will then realize what a "prize" they have if another company wants
>to have your services.    --Keith

Geez, it really amazes me that you have a job in the first place.  
Obviously Keith, you have no personal integrity whatsoever.

People hiring employees _do_ read these newsgroups and if you ever
decide that Methodist Home Selling is for you anymore, the only place you'll
find a job is in _hell_.

Why do you give advice on something you obviuosly have no experience with - 
is it just you're personal charm and charisma that exudes from every 
orifice in your pesitlent body?

Disclaimer:  To anyone else reading this post - sorry.
I just keep seeing this guys' thread and while I should use K to get
rid of him altogether, I've also noticed that others are not in
any sort of agreement with him either - so blah. 

andy

-- 
........................................................................
: Andrew J Infante, programmer extraordinaire, aka Schnookie the God :) :
: email aji@dukgeri.geri.duke.edu or infante@acpub.duke.edu             :
:.......................................................................:  
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: carol@ee.uts.edu.au (Carol Gibson)
Subject: Advice sought for working in England
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:06:12 GMT

	I'm planning on going overseas to work next April. I have
an honours degree in Mathematics with a double major in Computer
Science, and by then will have 2 years experience setting up and
maintaining Novell networks, and supporting a range of DOS and 
MS Windows applications on IBM type PC's. 

	What I'd really like to do is go to England and get some
contract work so I can save and travel further. What are my chances?
Does anyone know of any agencies I could contact?

	Any advice would be much appreciated. 


	Carol Gibson




%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/
Carol Gibson, Research Assistant and Programmer / "And now",  
Department of Electrical Engineering		/     said Max,
University of Technology, Sydney, Australia	/  "Let the Wild 
carol@ee.uts.edu.au				/     Rumpus start!"    
%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: SW Engineers needed, Maxor-San Jose, CA
From: dfriedman@misvax.mis.arizona.edu (D R Friedman)
Date: 15 Aug 1992 13:54 MST  
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona MIS Department
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <Bt1HCw.2GG@cs.dal.ca>, dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) writes...
>In article <Bsu8nH.4Kv@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Amos.Omondi@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug11.192148.20648@tcsi.com> gwu@nujoizey.tcs.com (George Wu) writes:
>>>In article <BssIyM.My5@comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Amos.Omondi@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
>>>> In article <63782@cup.portal.com> greatscott@cup.portal.com (Scott Alan Miller) writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >You must show proof of ability to work in the United States. 
>>>> 
>>>> What sort of proof did you have in mind?  Will I be paid if I work to 
>>>> provide this proof?
>>>
>>>     You need to show an American birth certificate, American passport, or
>>>other proof of American citizenship, or proper work permits (green card) if
>>>you are not an American citizen.  This is for the Immigration and
>>>Naturalization Service, which will levy fines against employers employing
>>>illegal immigrants.  Without such proof, I doubt you'd even be allowed to
>>>begin work.
>>>*********************************Replied to Section******************
> 
>In my case, I have no American Passport, no American birth certificate, or
>any other form of American I.D.  I do however have an American Social Security
>card but no Green Card.  (Interesting story behind that :)
> 
>I would think that this is enough to allow me to work down there even
>though I don't have permanent residency status (although I am considered
>a citizen) (I am Native and have dual citizenship)
> 
>Colin DeWolfe
>dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca
>

Sorry colin, but you are just plain SOL.  In order for you to fill out
W-4 forms, you need to show that you are eligible to work in this country
The I-9 form lists the valid proofs you will need to show.

The SSN card is not a valid form of identification for anything in this
country mainly because it is so easy to get and because some people have
more than one.

Denny 
-------------------------------------
Imagination is the beginning of creation.  You imagine what you desire, you 
will what you imagine, and at last you create what you will.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mmf@evolving.com (Mark Frazier)
Subject: Re: Working for free
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:52:32 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home) writes:
: uekenned@mcs.drexel.edu (Eric Kennedy) writes:
: 
: >People don't "pay all kinds of money to go to school to learn very little of
: >practical use"; they pay all kinds of money to learn something practical but
: >colleges lie to us and tell us that what they teach IS practical.
: 
: I disagree. Practical knowledge is to be had at a vocational school. A 
: university is to teach you how to learn and give you the basics to learn with. 
: The rest is really up to you.

It's also to prove that you have so much perseverance to put up with any
hoops that teachers make you jump through, that work is a trivial exercise.

MMF
From: gheim@eng.auburn.edu (Greg Heim)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Working for free
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:07:14 GMT
Organization: Auburn University, AL

rsemenof@ee.ubc.ca (SEMENOFF ROBERT) writes:
=> 
=> Does anyone have any comments on this ?
=> 
=> Of course it would be hard on me because I'd have to
=> work part time at a paying job to sustain myself.
=> Also, what would a potential employer's response be?
=> (This guy must be a real loser if he'll work for free) ?

With all the horror stories I had heard from recent grads, that idea 
(of working for free to get the foot in the door) had entered my mind 
too.  But, as far as them writing you off as a loser, I figured if you 
just show an employer the attitude "Wait til you see what I can do!" 
then they would not tend to write you off as a loser so quickly.  And
besides, it's not like they can _lose_ money on you.

Greg
 

Will Hack For Food    | Graduating in August.  Looking for job in Atlanta area.
                      | 3+ Years _real_ experience in... UNIX administration,
Greg Heim             | Relational database design, PC Hardware/Software Support
gheim@eng.auburn.edu  | Shell programming. Resourceful problem solver. Hire me!
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: pas@anchor.unh.edu (Paul A Sand)
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: University of New Hampshire
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:20:06 GMT

[followups to talk.politics.misc]

gf> == Gordon Fitch

gf> [...] The real median wage has been falling steadily in the United
    States for the last 20 years or so. [...]

Gordon, I think, has a programmed key that spits that assertion into
his articles on a periodic basis. Many moons ago, we did some back and
forth on this; I will, in the ecologically-correct spirit of recycling,
summarize two areas in which the assertion is, at best, unacceptably
vague:

(1) What--precisely--is the number referred to as ``wage''?  Hourly
wage? Weekly? Yearly? Before or after taxes?

(2) Over what population--precisely--is the median statistic gathered?
Over jobs? Workers?  Families, or households?  Or over some other
population?  If workers, are we considering just fulltime workers
(whatever that may precisely mean) or just everyone that's worked at
some point during a year?

I know that when one makes at least one set of reasonable answers to
the above questions, Gordon's assertion is simply false: real median
yearly pretax household income is bigger than in 1972, according to the
latest numbers from the Census Bureau. (You can look this up in a
half-decent library, and I have.)

Other sets of answers can give misleading, if not perverse, indications
of economic health: for example, if all workers making less than $30K a
year lost their jobs overnight, the median statistic wage for (the
remaining) workers would skyrocket, even if nobody was actually making
any more money. 

Finally, being more specific can give some useful indications for
policy, although this is often lost in the forgettories of policy
makers:  consider the (only slightly hypothetical) spectacle of Joe
Congresscritter (D-Confusion) who (a) votes for hefty increases in the
FICA tax, and then a few years later (b) points with horror to the
declining (after-tax) income of his constituents.

gf> This has many effects, one of them being that Americans are
    increasingly working harder and longer than they used to in an
    attempt to keep up their standard of living. And there is little
    pressure on employers to offer longer vacations when so many people
    are unemployed. Europe, while it is not devoid of problems, seems to
    be faring better that the United States in this area.

Such grand and sweeping conclusions can't be derived from that one
next-to-meaningless assertion.
-- 
-- Paul A. Sand           | A fool and his money are soon...
-- Univ. of New Hampshire | Hey, where's my wallet?
-- pas@kepler.unh.edu     | 
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: krauss@oktext.sbc.com (M S Krauss)
Subject: Re: Why do Americans get so little vacation time?
Reply-To: krauss@oktext.UUCP (M S Krauss)
Organization: Southwestern Bell
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 04:31:05 GMT

In article <BsvrJ5.4Fu@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug12.145254.25386@osf.org> bhaim@osf.org (Bruce Haimowitz) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug12.023342.7625@panix.com>, gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>>
>>> The real median wage has been falling steadily in
>>> the United States for the last 20 years or so.  This has many
>>> effects, one of them being that Americans are increasingly
>>> working harder and longer than they used to in an attempt to
>>> keep up their standard of living.  And there is little pressure
>>> on employers to offer longer vacations when so many people
>>> are unemployed.  Europe, while it is not devoid of problems,
>>> seems to be faring better that the United States in this
>>> area.
>>
>>I think an additional factor to consider is: European unions
>>are strong and are constantly fighting for additional
>>vacation time for their members.  Whereas in the U.S.,
>>unions are relatively weak and their membership is an ever
>>declining percentage of the workforce.  U.S. employees
>>have no collective bargaining power to fight for longer vacations.

I don't remember what magazine it was (Time or US News & World Report)
but it said in there that americans already don't take all of the 
vacation time they are already due.

>   While I hate to be a trouble-maker (right, Peter, whatever you say)
>   I just have to ask:  why is vacation time an issue?  TANSTAAFL, and
>   all that --  SOMEONE has to pay for that European employee's wages
>   when he's partying on the coast of Spain or fishing in some lake
>   in Sweden or painting his house in a suburb of Munich.  More
>   vacation time translates directly into higher labor costs or less
>   productivity.  Look at Europe's cost-of-living sometime or their
>   share of the world market in any of the a number of major in-
>   dustrial sectors.   Personally I'd rather have fewer vacation days 
>   and a stronger economy or more profitable company, than lots of
>   vacation time and watch my nation's economy or my company's 
>   fade to harder-working competitors.
>
>---peter
>

Having few vacation days and more profitable company lines are left
overs from the Reagan era.  I think it is the duty of every loyal
blooded american to use up all of the vacation time he or she is due
and in the year that it is for.  I have had my share of pro bono work
and do not intend to do any more.  All it got me was bags under my eyes
(which my health care plan will not pay for anymore) while the guys at
the top got richer and richer. Well screw them.

-Mike
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: berger@atropa (Mike Berger)
Subject: Re: Need Advice/CS major w/ bad grades
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:37:41 GMT
Keywords: grades,jobs,grad school

agarcia@remus.rutgers.edu (Anthony Garcia) writes:
>	I just completed my computer science degree at Rutgers but my
>gpa is only about 2.65. I will finish a degree in English in December
>and my gpa there is much better. Can anyone offer some constructive
>advice as I look for a full time job in the coming months? Is there
>a grad school in the country that will take a mediocre student?

>	I am thinking of becoming a technical writter. Are there any
>of you out there who have some insight on this? Is anyone out there in
>the field with mediocre grades working and making a good living?
*----
I went through school on the "extended study plan" (hey, four years
goes by way too fast) and worked full-time as well.  My grades were
pretty mediocre, and I graduated with a degree in History and
Philosophy of Science.  Since I had been working with electronics
since I was 12, and computers since I was 14, I already had a
track record (including a job at an engineering firm while in
high school), and I never found grades to be an issue.  The
degree (ANY degree from an accredited institution) makes it much
easier for large firms and academic institutions to hire you
and therefore makes you more competitive in the job market.  But
grades are only an issue while they're the only criterion available.
Experience is the most crucial issue.

So for your first job, they'll ask you about your courses and
grades.  The next time, they'll ask what you did in your last
job.

Of course, I'm assuming your bad grades are due to being a poor
student (not meant in a derogatory way - everybody can't 
regurgitate on command as is required in some courses), and
not because of laziness, bad attitudes, alcoholism, etc.

Even grad colleges eventually relent on grades and consider
your employment history, so you'll have a chance eventually.
Applications typically increase during a recession, so this may
not be a good time to go for the masters degree, despite what
Bush says.

--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
From: judy@technology.com (Judy McMillin)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Achievement Based Resumes
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:35:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

o: cnmhnet!keithg
Subject: Re: Achievement based resumes
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,soc.women
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas
Cc: 

I'm 48 and have been working since a teenager; I know what you mean about
job requirements becoming more and more stringent.  I believe 2 things 
account for this.  The first is that we are becoming much more technical or
maybe specialized is a better word in the workplace.  But second, and I
think probably the biggest reason, is screening.  These days, it seems there
are far more applicants for most jobs than employers want to bother sorting
through; so they up the requirements in order to reduce the number of
applicants.  I think technically that's not legal, but that it's pretty
common anyway.

My personal "solution" is that it's time for the 32-hour work week.  This
would give everyone more time off and would probably reduce unemployment
quite a bit too.

Funny, we all either desperately want a job or are desperately trying to
figure out ways to get away from one!

		Bye, Judy.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: Re: Beards & Jobs
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 04:43:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

>Some requirements are for the entire site, regardless of your specific job.
>I've had a beard for the past ten+ years, with few exceptions, but when
>I worked at a Dupont plant near New Orleans, I shaved it off.  The reason
>being that if I had to wear a gas mask, then the company would prefer (as I
>would) that I had a good air tight seal between my face and the mask.

That's why *I* would just not work there.
-- 
/***********************************************************************\
| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
\***********************************************************************/
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.usa