HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:25:19 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <cummings.714075674@milton> cummings@milton.u.washington.edu (Michael Cummings) writes:
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>
>>Is this common in other word that have the "sk" in them?  Or is the
>>reversal lexical in "ask?"  It could just be lexical.
>
>	I often hear people pronounce "asterisk" as "asteriks" or more
>commonly, "asterick."

This is true.  It may have more to do with the nature of the /s/ than
anything else; /s/ has a strange role in English as well as other
languages as far as just what it's doing in a given syllable.

Regards,
Janis C.
 

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 11:53:08 GMT




In a previous article, padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) says:

>In article <1992Aug12.104734.29915@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>>
>>Can this be right?  I grew up in the New York area, and always heard
>>"route" rhyming with "pout".  As I got older, I discovered the "root"
>>pronunciation of the word meaning a path, but the carpentry tool -always-
>>rhymes with "pout".  

>
>Where in the New York area? By me, if one said that "route" rhymed
>with "pout", you may have just as well said "pop" for "soda". We 
>don't cotton none to youse smart-alecky Midwesterners.



Mom from the Bronx, Dad from Brooklyn.  I was born in Manhattan, reared in
the Bronx and on Long Island.  I'll swear we all said "rowte."

One possible difference is time.  I was born in 1945.  That seems longer
ago than it used to.

My mom and dad still say "rowte".  I switched to "route" sometime in
adolescence or early adulthood (I wonder if it had anything to do with the
TV show "Route 66"?) and have recently switched back out of contempt for my
own pretentiousness.

Seems to me people say both here in the Cleveland area.

Oh, hey, someone on this thread mentioned "woof" and "wolf".  Where does
Dan Rather come from?  Did anyone see the news broadcast in which he had to
use the world "wolf" over and over, and said "woof" every time?  It was
amazing.  I called the family in, and we all sat unbelieving as he kept
doing it!

Not too long after that, he had another newscast with a wolf in it, and
this time, he definitely (though faintly) pronounced the "L".  Someone must
have broken it to him.


Bonita Kale
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Mandar's point
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:51:52 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <92227.124937GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> Callec Dradja <GRV101@psuvm.psu.e
du> writes:

>In a recent article, Mandar claimed that it might be possible that our
>gender prejudices exist seperate from the language. There may be
>evidence that backs him up. Farsi , which is spoken in Iran, is a genderless
>language, in fact you can talk all day about a person without revealing
>their gender. Still we should ask, does this genderless language produce
>an equal society? This sort of makes you question the Whorfian hypothesis.
>

What is the Whorfian hypothesis?  Does it boldly argue that language
structure determines social behavior and interaction?  Does this
hypothesis blame gender pronouns for gender inequities?  I used to
speak Fulaani and, as with the example of Farsi given above, it was a
genderless language.   Men ruled.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Reply-To: goer@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:51:33 GMT

cen@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>
>Marks & Sparks have changed two lanes to "Eight Items or Fewer" here. & the
>clientele of this particular store is cultured enough not only to demand
>grammatical perfection, but also to observe the ruling. Or maybe they are
>proficient in both English and Mathematics! wow!!

Actually, when I'm feeling lonely and isolated in my brilliance, I enjoy
looking down on the poor fools who aren't privy to the mysteries of the
cultured dialects of English (which are, after all, closer to that Pla-
tonic ideal of language we all know exists somewhere it the higher realms).
I vote that we just let the checkout lines be, and keep it our little
secret.

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: The 'i' vowel : Help !
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:04:16 GMT
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting

In article 18011@ready.eng.ready.com, marcl@ready.com (Marc Lasserre) writes:
>
>As I am not a native speaker in english, I would like to know if there are
>any rules on how to pronounce words with an 'i' such as:
>
>	mint [mint]
>but	mind [maind]
>
>(- I hope I do not need to learn all the words with an 'i' -)

The rule is that single vowels are usually pronounced short, like mind.
Except when they are not.

>
>If there are no rules, how can you do when you see for the very first
>time a new word (a neologism) ?

Native English speakers make many many many errors when they first 
pronounce a word.  

This seems to happen most often when you are talking with friends and
you use a word that you have read a number of times but never had the
occasion to speak.  Your 'friends' will rib you mercilessly for hours,
depending on how pronounced a gaff you make.  (Someone at lunch the other 
day pronounced 'brazier' (as in Dairy Queen, or charcoal grill) as brassiere.  
It was good for a laugh.)

One that I remember is the word albeit, which is pronounced all-be-it, 
which I guess it is derived from.  I, naturally, pronounced it all-bite.
Not terribly funny, but not terribly understandable either.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Spanish pronouns
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:19:57 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of ttw@beta.lanl.gov (Tony Warnock):

>Spanish prepositions take "yo" rather than "me." The constructions
>"conmigo" and "contigo" are special. The Spanish "yo" acts rather
>the French "moi" in this respect. "Me" is a verbal object:
>direct, indirect, or reflexive. "Mi" is a possessive adjective.
>Corrections by native Spanish speakers welcome.

You're wrong.  Verbal objects take "me", but prepositional
objects take "mi'", which is distinct from "mi":

    Right	Wrong

    para mi'	para yo
    para ti	para tu'

    por mi'	por yo
    por ti	por tu'

    de mi'	de yo
    de ti	de tu'

Purists may further note that while "mi" is a possesive adjective,
the object of the preposition, "mi'", carries a mandatory accent
mark, whereas its corresponding second person form, "ti", does not.
Likewise, the subject pronoun "tu'" takes an accent, but the 
possessive adjective, "tu", does not.

I realize it's partially my fault for letting this turn into
alt.uso.espanyol, and that I'm now compounding the error, but 
it bothers me to see false information presented as truth.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

    "It's a wise dog that scratches its own fleas."
			--Strunk and White
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:13:05 GMT
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <wcsjc.714115057@cunews> wcsjc@alfred.carleton.ca (John Coughlin) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.215050.22371@nas.nasa.gov>,
>asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov) writes:
>
>>And I often hear "et cetera" pronounced "ek cetera."  (This is 
>>mucus to my ears.)
>
>How about nookeelur energy?

Well, I don't know if the poster is referring to the same beastly
mispronunciation I am all too familiar with, but the one that gest me
is NOO-kyuh-lar.  I think it was Edwin Newman who said, "When the nuclear
age began in 1945, so did the 'nucular' age."

Besides "ek cetera," the other ones that I just can't stand are the second
month of the year being pronounced "feb-yoo-ar-ee."  And let's not forget
about "goverment."  When I was in high school, I had a calculus teacher
with otherwise pristine speech who used to call that antiderivative thing
an "in-truh-gul."   Then there are "Ma-ra-SHEE-no" cherries and the
"public liberry" and "endangered spee-seez" and probably lots more I'm
forgetting.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Use of Myself (was Re: Use of 'I' and 'me')
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:44:48 GMT

Is anyone else bugged by the phrasing that leads to "Please mail it to myself,"
or "give it to myself"?  Somehow, I see a difference between telling myself
something (maybe I am telling _my_ _self_ something?) and exhorting someone
else to do/send/tell something to "myself." 

Is it a regional difference?  Do you want people to give things to "you," or
to "yourself"?

____
Dian 

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jinglish Coffee Label
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:27:58 GMT

In article <Bt9FKF.A0u@resntl.bhp.com.au> steve@utopia.resntl.bhp.com.au (Steve Woodyatt) writes:

>Found on a recent trip to Manila (Philippines) in a tourist coffee shop.
>the following (Jinglish and Japanese) label on a jar of coffee imported 
>from Japan:

>		AGF Maxim  Freeze Dried Coffee

>	" The wood porch faced east. First sunrise burned the mist from 
>	  the hilly hollows, then dried out the webs spiders spun 
>	  overnight between leaves of grass. A distant chainsaw cut into
>	  the birdsong; the rising wind whipped blue butterflies with 
>	  stalks of goldenrod."

>I can just picture the chainsaw now........ 

Me too!  But where's the Jinglish?  This is an incredibly well-crafted
paragraph of descriptive prose, as evocative as one can be in fifty
words or less.  Subversive, too; your average consumer of Maxim will, as
far as the marketing people care, not be expecting that chainsaw in the
middle of the morning-coffee idyll.  Certainly the coffee commercials
*I* know don't emphasize the logging industry when they show you misty
mountains.   

I could use this paragraph to teach description and the figures of
speech that aid it; but I won't bore y'all here...

Roger
>-- 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------/\/\---
>Steve Woodyatt, Research Scientist, Image Analysis Grp.           / / /\
>                BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories, Australia./ / /  \
>Snail   :       P.O. Box 188, Wallsend 2287                     / / / /\ \
>Tel     :       +61 49 510695 Fax: +61 49 502126                \ \/ / / /
>Internet:       steve@resntl.bhp.com.au                          \  / / / 
>------------------------------------------------------------------\/\/\/--
From: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk (Mark Riordan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Name for Brits and Irish?
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:28:27 GMT
Distribution: eunet
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <3811@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>From article <1992Aug16.222313.14707@Princeton.EDU>, by kjcarey@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Kevin J. Carey):
>
>>"West Briton"  or "West Brit" is in fact a grevious insult in Ireland. 
>
>However I was led by a UCD graduate to believe that some old
>Anglo-Irish families, and other "right-wing" elements as he put it still use
>it as a positive term. Comments anyone?

I have never heard anyone describe themselves as a West Brit in
Ireland. It is occasionally used as an insult. Most Anglo-Irish
people living in the Republic that I have heard speaking would
at this stage consider themselves Irish although I detect some
disapointment from them that sometimes the definition of Irish gets 
a little narrow and they find themselves being squeezed out. I do 
think the Irish are getting better at coping with the diversity of
our people (although of course it is not very diverse in world terms).

Irish people get touchy about the use of British Isles, British Lions
etc. but it is a bit like the stroke city solution, if people were
known to use Britain and Ireland, British and Irish Lions occasionally
then the use of the former terms would not be a problem.

Again I would repeat that this problem mainly arises from people
who know what will cause offence deliberately and continually using
offensive terms. 

I personally would not like to live under the tyranny of never being
able to say England when I mean Britain but I would feel others could
legitimately expect me not to do it continually and certainly not
deliberately. I for one expect no more than that in relation to the 
terms relating to Ireland which have been under discussion.

MARK
-- 
| JANET:    mark@uk.ac.hw.cs   Mark Riordan, Rm G21, Computer Science Dept  |
| Internet: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk   Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton Campus,    |
|                              Edinburgh, Scotland.  (031)449-5111 x4172    |
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:57:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum):
:How could I have forgotten that one?  I hear "disk" pronounced /dIks/
:every day.  Well, ok, every weekday:  one of my co-workers
:pronounces it that way.  His first language is, I believe, Cantonese.

/dIks/ not /diks/?  Sounds Hispanic.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
They spell it "da Vinci" and pronounce it "da Vinchy".  Foreigners
always spell better than they pronounce.
                -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications (LONG)
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:00:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.224525.13872@mlacus.oz.au>, ash@mlacus.oz.au (Ash Nallawalla) writes:

> The interesting metric variant of "mileage" in our company's claim forms
> is "kilometerage".  What is the variant of mile-o-meter (unsure of
             ^
Is the superfluous 'e' pronounced?

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dks@athena.mit.edu (dks)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:22:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.174246@cs.man.ac.uk>,
aek@cs.man.ac.uk (Alan Knowles) writes:
>OK. Here's your English reply.

Ta muchly.  Just as Cleopatra had to tell Antony, however, I must tell
you that you are not the first.


>Until reading this discussion, I was under, what has now been shown to be a
>misapprehension, that you could tell an American from a Brit by the way he
>pronounced 'route'.

Well, if the responses I've collected are indicative of anything, your test
for Americanness may generate false negatives but not false positives.
Assuming, of course, that you ask the subject to say "route."  And, more
subtly, that you only ever encounter (and test) Brits and Americans.


>The algorithm for determining from where a person came seemed simple.

And that, in itself, should have been a dead giveaway, shouldn't it?
Origins are, paradoxically, one of life's last mysteries.


>I draw no conclusions. The British way, naturally, seems
>correct and logical to me.

Ra-ther!  Rule, Brittania, etc.


>PS I speak only as a Mancunian. I ain't go# a clew wot them dahn
>sarf tork like.  (Note the guttural glottal stop in "go# a clew"?)

Dully -- I mean, duly -- noted.  Thanks again for writing!


Dhanesh

[This post is dedicated to anyone who remembers Busby's Babes.]
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Taking Bush Apart
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:31:00 GMT
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard

yholbroo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Yash Holbrook) writes:
>
>It is obvious that Mr. Bush studied in the school of Mr. Language, 
>otherwise known as Dave Barry, syndicated Florida humor columnist.  

That's Mr. Language *Person*, but in this group we probably should call
him Mr. Languagetron.

>This is from last Sunday's column:
>...
>Our first grammar question today comes from concerned reader Brian
>Cameron of Elora, Ontario, who writes: ``Just what does it mean when
>someone says, `But, by the same token'?''

You misspelled Ontarioe.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: yholbroo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Yash Holbrook)
Subject: Re: Taking Bush Apart
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 15:32:50 GMT

>Now consider two celebrated Bushisms:  "People understand that Congress
>bears a greater responsibility for this -- but I'm not trying to assign
>blame"; or "All I was doing was appealing to you for an endorsement, not
>suggesting you endorse it."  Even if Mr Bush is refused a post at Yale,
>he could stay on as an object for study.
>

It is obvious that Mr. Bush studied in the school of Mr. Language, 
otherwise known as Dave Barry, syndicated Florida humor columnist.  This is
from last Sunday's column:
[this is copyrighted: (C) 1992 THE MIAMI HERALD
	DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

...
Our first grammar question today comes from concerned reader Brian
Cameron of Elora, Ontario, who writes: ``Just what does it mean when
someone says, `But, by the same token'?''
	A. In grammatical terminology, this is what is known as a
``constipating conjunction.'' It is used to separate two statements that
would sound stupid if they were right next to each other.
	EXAMPLES:
	-- ``Unemployment will definitely decrease. But, by the same token, it
could increase.''
	-- ``In 27 years of marriage, Todd never noticed Marie's tentacle.
But, by the same token, he was a fine tennis player.''
...

It's a real pity that a "world leader" can't speak his own language.

-Yash
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
Date: 15 Aug 92 09:01:49 GMT
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com's message of 13 Aug 92 12:19:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.121940.2832@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:

> I guess this will demonstrate which side of the prescriptive/descriptive
> fence I'm on, but I just hate this.

> In every grocery store in the country:

> "Express line - 12 items or less"

Well, now you've stepped in it.  I agree that it is wrong to
say "less items," but when the "less" is on the end, the
phrase could be construed to imply "12 items or less (than
12 items)," which seems acceptable to me because of its
hearkening to the mathematical usage.  So no, it's not time
to lose the distinction, but I'm not bothered by the grocery
signs.  It would not give me any pain to see them changed
to "12 items or fewer" though.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
From: system@corner.wpb.fl.us (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: test
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 12:06:05 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: The Writer's Corner, Wellington, FL US

test. please ignoew
mahesh
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Potatoe
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 10:56:47 GMT




A friend of mine, who went to (Roman Catholic, in case that makes a
difference) elementary school in the early 40's, I believe, swears up hill
and down dale that she and her husband both learned to spell potato with an
"e".  She thinks she can remember when it changed.  She also claims her
daughter was taught the same way, which seems unlikely, except that
parochial schools, being poor, may have used old textbooks.  The only old
text I have handy teaches "potatoes" but not "potato." Anybody know? 

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications (LONG)
Reply-To: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:53:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.224525.13872@mlacus.oz.au>, ash@mlacus.oz.au (Ash
Nallawalla) writes:
> Sad to say but the form I hear more often is "kiLOM-eter". My preference
> is kilo-MEter.  I didn't understand what you meant by Gough's pronunciation
> being French style because I'd expect the French to say "KI-lo-metr".
> 
> The interesting metric variant of "mileage" in our company's claim forms
> is "kilometerage".  What is the variant of mile-o-meter (unsure of
> spelling)?

This is where your lose spelling is letting you down. Being British, I
would, of course, spell the distance 'kilometre' and the instrument
'kilometer'. 

Simon.

PS Being British I also never use smileys.

  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english