HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kim@techbook.com (Kim Larsen)
Subject: Re: *Burning*Albums* (Anti-Secularism)
Keywords: LONG
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 644-8135
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 06:11:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.202652.23711@chili.cc.lehigh.edu> learnd@lafcol.lafayette.edu (Dave Learn) writes:
>[reader response criticism] amounts to
>the individual reader/viewer/listener's arriving at her own interpretation
>of the material without considering the author's intent.  This is generally
>irresponsible and can end up with us supporting the ministry of people we
>do not want to support.

What "ministry" are you referring to?  And why is it irresponsible to
interpret a song for oneself without requiring the author to pass a litmus
test?

>I have heard people talk about Madonna in very
>glowing terms as they reinterpret songs like "Like a Virgin" as a powerful
>message of the renewal Christ brings to us.  But if we listen to this
>song responsibly, we soon realize that many of Madonna's other songs
>glorify sex (and not just her songs--watch some of her videos some time)
>and attack Christ and the Church. 

I never thought I'd find myself defending Madonna, :-) but ...
If that's the message they get, who are you to say they're
wrong?  A song is not the singer.  My relationship to a song is not
anyone else's relationship to that song.  Renewal can be found in some
odd places, if you will open yourself to look for it.  

>artist believes, familiarize yourself with her other works.  I don't know
>the song referred to above, but there are plenty like it in Phil Collins,
>Billy Joel, and countless other musicians' repertoire.  Listen to music,
>use it as a springboard to evangelize, but for God's sake, do it
>RESPONSIBLY.  KNOW what you're listening to.  KNOW what the artist
>intended it for, KNOW what she believes and KNOW how she lives.
>
Could any of us really pass a test like that?  God uses some very
imperfect vessels to impart truths to the rest of us.  I'm not talking
about Madonna, Phil Collins, or anyone else specifically--and this
discussion doesn't have to be limited to pop music.  Why "listen to
music...as a springboard to evangelize"?  Can't one simply listen
to music?  Must one go digging into the lives of every artist to see
if she or he is living just the way we think she or he ought to live?

(Is 1 divorce OK?  What about 2?  What if he didn't thank Jesus on his
last album--is it still OK for me to have around when my non-Christian
friends come over?)

  --Kim

-- 
kim@techbook.COM    Not affiliated with TECHbooks
----------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: nab4574@summa.tamu.edu (The Lord Reigns)
Subject: RE: Mike Warnke Controversy in Cornerstone magasine
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:17:00 GMT

In article <22JUL92.08483739.0013@lafibm.lafayette.edu>, HJ46@lafibm.lafayette.edu (Baboo (Holton, Jeffrey)) writes...
>In article <1992Jul20.142448.10094@cs.rose-hulman.edu> pearsodc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Douglas C. Pearson) writes:
>I can't vouch for the rumours about multiple wives, though I've never
>heard it before.  However, as far as the "accusations" about Warnke
>being involved with the Satanic church...heck yes.  He was a high
>priest in the church.  I don't think that's an "accusation" when you
>consider the fact that that is the whole sum of his testimony, that
>God can work through even the most committed sinner.
> 
>Now he's totally committed to something else, praise God!  Listen to
>his album "Alive" to find out more of his testimony.
> 
>--baboo

The point of the Cornerstone article is that this suppposed testimony
is a LIE. Not that he was in the Satanic church but that his claims
to have been were not true.


+------------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Neil Burleson   Texas A&M Univerity,  College Station, Texas  USA   |
+------------------------|     neilb@tamu.edu     |  nab4574@tamzeus  |
                         +------------------------+-------------------+
"Taste and see that the LORD is good;
       blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him."  -- Psalm 34:8
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: Mike Warnke
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:33:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.011732.16988@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante) writes:
 
>  Is there something else we should learn from this? Certainly accountability
> _is_ a big lesson. It's a hard lesson to learn for some of us, which makes
> the lesson even more sobering. I just wonder what other lessons we should
> learn from this. It might be a fruitful topic for further discussion. Perhaps
> another lesson is the need to be _thinking_ Christians, not just grasping
> to something just because it is labeled as "christian." (of course, that
> would not have helped most of us on the net -- how were we to know the
> things brought up in the cornerstone article?)

I'm very, very saddened by this whole episode.  If the Cornerstone article 
is true (and I'm withholding judgment until I read it and Mike Warnke's 
response), then it would seem that a well-known and well-respected Christian 
leader has invented a sordid past and "made up" a testimony.  And I find 
myself wondering why someone would do this.

Perhaps one lesson we can learn from this is to search our hearts to 
understand why we, as Christians, often pay particular attention to
other Christians who have experienced dramatic conversions.  I don't know 
why this is.  But I know that I do it too.  I deplore tabloid sensationalism.  
I don't care whether Elvis' Martian love twins actually exist or not.  But 
I'm the first to prick up my ears when a brother or sister comes along and 
tells me, "I used to be an axe-wielding, drug-addicted, sex-crazed psychopath 
who killed my mama but then I found Jesus and, praise God, now I'm a normal 
accountant."  

This is tabloid Christianity, and it's part of Mike Warnke's appeal.  
People don't flock to see Christian accountants.  But reformed, 
neatly manicured ex-Satanists - ah, that's another story.  Please
understand that if I'm pointing fingers here, I'm pointing them at
myself as well.  It just saddens me that there's something about
the Christian culture and, alas, something about myself that 
finds the freak show appealing.  If I deplore what Mike Warnke
allegedly did, and I do, then I had better reserve a little time
to deplore the side of me that seeks out the sensational and the
bizarre, and that creates a ready audience for those who want to
concoct sensational, bizarre lies.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>john r la plante                    calling from the Ohio State University
>jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  political analysis done while you wait

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
From: schouten@sp17.csrd.uiuc.edu (Dale Schouten)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: U2 uses padding?! Horrors!
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:41:12 GMT
Organization: Center for Supercomputing R & D

In article <63966@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray) writes:
> In article <63929@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6851a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian King) writes:
>>I always find it amusing, as a guitarist, when non-musicians ask me to "play
> something by U2!"  One guy with an acoustic guitar? Impossible.  They use 3 
> or 4 guitars at once, plus sometimes string/key/weird sounds.
> Their whole gimmick is the "wall of sound/textured" approach, which
> cannot be duplicated by 4 live musicians, no matter how talented.  

This `wall of sound' stuff is a relatively recent phenomenon in the
life of U2.  Listen to the their good (read `older' (IMHO) :-) stuff and
you often find simple guitar bass and drums, with minimal effects on
the guitar.  For example, `I will follow', `Celebration', `Gloria',
and even stuff up through War and `Live under a blood red sky' is
straightforward.  On the video for `live ...' you see the Edge playing
both the Guitar (harmonics) and keyboard, but that's about as
complicated as it gets.  Even the live version of `A sort of
homecoming' was pretty basic as I remember.

If you want something that works with just an acoustic guitar, try
`Party Girl', `Sunday bloody Sunday', `40', `A sort of homecoming', `I
still haven't found what I'm looking for', `When love came to town'
(that one works surprisingly well with just an acoustic), and even
stuff like `Second' & `All I want is you' might work.  Of course, this
sounds best if you've got a voice like Bono's (i.e. rough,  screechy
and a little bit off :-).

Dale Schouten
schouten@uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: johnt@meaddata.com (John Townsend)
Subject: Re: *Burning*Albums* (Anti-Secularism)
Keywords: Amy Grant - Antichrist or not?
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:15:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.140447.13364@rice.edu>, mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller) writes:
|> I don't mean to nitpick, but...
|> 
|> >If you will note, it was GOD who made the loincloths for them to cover
|> >their nakedness. 
|> 
|> Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they
|>              were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings
|>              for themselves." (NIV) 
|> 
|> Anyone can say something which is Biblically Incorrect.
|> Does this mean that Noel does not have a high view of Scriptural authority?
|> 
|> If not, do not condemn another on similar grounds.

I'm sure Noel was referring to the ones made of animal skins, a wonderful
picture of God's future provision for man's sin through a blood sacrifice,
in lieu of the hopeless works of man.

--
John Townsend                     Internet:   johnt@meaddata.com
Mead Data Central                 UUCP:       ...!uunet!meaddata!johnt
8891 Gander Creek Dr.             GEnie:      J.E.Townsend
Miamisburg, OH  45342             Telephone:  (513) 865-7250 
                                  Telefax:    (513) 865-1755
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: *Burning*Albums* (Anti-Secularism)
Keywords: Amy Grant - Antichrist or not?
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:14:48 GMT
Organization: Rice University


>>>If you will note, it was GOD who made the loincloths for them to cover
>>>their nakedness. 

>>Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized
>>             they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made 
>>             coverings for themselves." (NIV) 

>Genesis 3:21
>The LORD God made garments of skin Adam and his wife and clothed them.
>NIV

Right, but this all started when someone claimed Adam and Eve clothed 
themselves when they saw their nakedness.  Then Noel said "No, it was 
God who did it."  I am noting that he was not correct.  God made the 
garments of skin *after* the fact.  The original poster's comment was 
100% correct.

Ernest
From: HJ46@lafibm.lafayette.edu (Baboo (Holton, Jeffrey))
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Randy Stonehill Question
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:39:57 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University
Originator: news@lafcol

In article <geOYCha00WB7892G8g@andrew.cmu.edu> st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes:
>The song "Shut De Do" also appears in a live version on Randy Stonehill's
>recent half-live album "Until We Have Wings."  This album, unlike the
>aforementioned "Equator" is still in print.
>
>Steve Timm
>.
>.

It's still possible to find a few copies of Equator running around,
especially at Stonehill concerts, but as far as I know, it was
very recently released on disc.  At least, that's what the album notes
for "UWHW" says.

--Jeffrey
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jazz@jazz.b11.ingr.com (Jeff Roberts)
Subject: Re: 77's releases?
Reply-To: jazz@jazz.b11.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:50:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.121757.5870@iscsvax.uni.edu>, clopton5107@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
|> 
|>         Yes.  The new album has the working title of "Pray Naked."  Mike says
|> that "pray naked!" is to be the Christian youth slogan of the 90's, taking the
|> place of "God Rules!"

Gee Whiz, it's hard enough debating back and forth about whether rock music is
an appropriate medium for Christian music without titles and slogans like that.
Regardless of my personal views/biases, that's just tacky. :-)
==============================================================================
J. Jeff Roberts              jazz@jazz.b11.ingr.com             (205) 730-6155
	For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the 
	power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...    Rom 1:16
==============================================================================
From: djn20624@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Danielson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: And I thought this was a MUSIC news group!
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:08:35 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


	Why is there so many articles about non-MUSIC Christian stuff or
Non-Christian Music stuff????????

	Is Kings-X a "christian" group?
	Does Mike Warnke sing?
	Does being a Baptist have some musical connatations with it?
	Is everyone posting here because S.R.C is too tightly moderated?

	Some of this is meant to be sarcastic, but then again some isn't.

Dan.
From: meo@pencom.com (Jaime Retief, IV)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: CCM Industry Pressure
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:46:57 GMT
Organization: Roadkills-R-Us

Out of the mouth of mugsy@winton.uucp (<<In Stereo>>):
>I have repeatedly read of artists like Sam Philips, et. all, leaving CCM
>because of problems/pressures with the CCM Industry.  I've accepted this 
>until now, but started wondering just what were the problems encountered?

At the time Leslie became Sam, what I read was partly (a)
that the music industry wanted her to write/perform stuff
that wasn't really her/what she wanted to say/how she would
say it (a common complaint - ask Mark Heard, or Gene and Janny)
and (b) she was tired of the pressures to be perfect (something
anyone in the spotlight, especially that of Christianity, must
constantly deal with.  (Note that such pressures come from
a variety of people with differing, often conflicting, views
of the Godhood they demand another attain.)

Also, I have a friend who wanted to be in the Christian Music
Industry (not as a ministry, per se, but she is a Christian,
and that's where she looked first to perform).  She gave up
on that after nearly being ripped off by some producers, at
least one of whom is well-known.  Basically, she was to take
all the risks, sign her life and rights away to them for
ridiculous periods of time, and give up creative control,
for which she got very little back unless she became the
next Amy Grant.

She has since moved into pop & country, where she can be
herself, and maintain control over both her life and music.
This is not an indictment of the whole industry; it is one
case.  But I have other friends who are doing it the hard
way (their own labels) because the industry only wants
certain types of music and certain types of lyrics.

NOTE - there are noticable exceptions to this - look at
the alternative and metal labels, for instance.  But also
look at how hard Mark Heard and others have struggled to
maintain artistic control.

On the flip side, my mind still boggles at certain things
that have happened - Keith Green had pretty much total
artistic license, AND got to give away his records!  Barry
McGuire had nothing to say, and saw no point in doing another
album until he did; his producer agreed, so he wasn't
pressured to do one just to satisfy a contract (no, I don't
believe in breaking promises - obviously they agreed to
modify the contract - which is the whole point here).

-Miles
meo@pencom.com
From: HJ46@lafibm.lafayette.edu (Baboo (Holton, Jeffrey))
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Michael W. Smith
Date: 22 Jul 92 12:44:42 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University
Originator: news@lafcol

In article <1992Jul20.130324.19157@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
>I guess that what "bugged" me most about "Go West..." is that it
>seemed to be targeted at a younger audience than myself.  The bits of
>"almost rap" in the "Love Crusade" were certainly a concession to what
>teenagers seem to like to listen to on the radio.  I don't enjoy
>listening to rap/rap-like music, and dislike the tendancy of other
>musical genres to copy it.  (And it's now been 6 years since I was a
>"teenager".)
>
>--
>Christopher Browne
>cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
>University of Ottawa
>Master of System Science Program
>.
>.

Have you heard Steven Curtis Chapman's "Got 2 B Tru" from his latest
album _The_Great_Adventure_?  I'm not much into rap either, but I
was ready to roll on the floor after hearing this one.  Granted,
maybe it's because I liked "Wayne's World" too.  :)  Trust me; you have
to hear it to understand.  :)

--Baboo
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: harling@pictel.com (Dan Harling)
Subject: Re: U2 uses padding?! Horrors!
Organization: PictureTel Corporation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:44:12 GMT

In article <63929@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt6851a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian King) writes:
[From an unattributed article:]
>>>I saw U2, who supposedly only played stuff that the
>four of them could reproduce in concert.  However, the drummer had on 
>a set of headphones, presumably for the express purpose of being able to hear
>the click tracks on the musical 'padding' they were using.

Rush does the same thing.  That's because they use sequencers to play
repetitive keyboard riffs and other things, since there are only three
of them.  There are only so many things you can play at once with only
six hands and six feet!


>I always find it amusing, as a guitarist, when non-musicians ask me to "play
>something by U2!"  One guy with an acoustic guitar? Impossible.  They use 3 
>or 4 guitars at once, plus sometimes string/key/weird sounds.
>Their whole gimmick is the "wall of sound/textured" approach, which
>cannot be duplicated by 4 live musicians, no matter how talented.  

U2 uses surprisingly simple guitar techniques.  I suspect distortion,
delay, and maybe an octave pedal would be all you need for leads, at
least on their earlier songs like "Sunday Bloody Sunday".
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                 PictureTel, but they ought to be!
From: thomas@mvac23.UUCP (Thomas Lapp)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: FTP posting of WARNKE article ===================
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 16:37:41 EDT
Organization: MultiVac23, Newark, DE, U.S.A.

>  I have posted the Warnke articles from Cornerstone at
> wuarchive.wustl.edu (in the /pub directory- warnke.zip).

Rats.  I hate when I want something and don't have FTP
available.  If someone who has the .zip would be willing
to UUENCODE and send to me, I'd be real appreciative.

My only FTP is anonymous mail server and it is iffy at
best (due to load, I think).
                         - tom
--
internet     : mvac23!thomas@udel.edu  or  thomas%mvac23@udel.edu (home)
             : 4398613@mcimail.com (work)
OSI          : C=US/A=MCI/S=LAPP/D=ID=4398613
uucp         : {ucbvax,mcvax,uunet}!udel!mvac23!thomas
Location     : Newark, DE, USA
From: alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (The WILD Samoan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Denominationalism
Keywords: AMEN!
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:57:22 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Jul31.181654.1179@wdl.loral.com> trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.115304.5897@iscsvax.uni.edu>, marshall1198@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>|> In article <keS198i00Uh_Q33otQ@andrew.cmu.edu>, Meg Alison Veily <mv0t+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>|> > 	<1992Jul29.195954.18746@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
>|> > Distribution: usa
>|> > Lines: 22
>|> > 
[Encouraging prophetic message about divisions in the Church deleted.]
>|> > In Christ,
>|> >  
>|> > -Meg
>|> 
>|> AMEN to that!
>
>And AMEN!
>
>|> Love,
>|> Evan
>
>-- Tim

And all God's children said AMEN!

Kinda relating this to another thread, I have recently had discussions with 
members of two at least quasi-Christian groups who claim to be the only
Way and that the church as we know it means very little. One of the evidences
they use to disprove that the church teaches the right way is that there is
an awful lot of dissension and denominationalism in the church. This is also
a big reason non-Christians reject Christianity is the fruit they see is
schism and division. Relating this to the other thread about listening
to non-Christian artists, when they are rightfully criticizing the church
it might be helpful to us to listen to such songs as a much-needed rebuke.
Just as listening to these quasi-Christians motivates me to pray and strive
for unity. (Gee, a sentence fragment. Just not perfect, I guess. :-)

Remember, we aren't the only ones praying for unity. Jesus himself prayed
for it. We need only echo his prayer (and perhaps elaborate on it now and
then for specifics I guess). Acappella has a song on _Rescue_ (I think)
about this. "The Lord is praying for his church, that they may all be one."
Taken from John 17:21 and the surrounding passage. Check it y'all!

Well, I've taken care of my obCCM so I'll sign off now.

Grace and Peace,
Titi
The B.I.C.


--
    /~/         |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
 /~~  ~/ MARANA |Titiimaea "The WILD Samoan" \ President, founder, and sole   |
 ~/ /~~   THA!  |Alailima@Eniac.SEAS.UPenn.Edu\ member of the Penn Samoan Club|
 /_/            |______________________________\______________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: rjd4507@zeus.tamu.edu (Ray De Frese)
Subject: Re: Is there anybody here that's not a Baptist?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:55:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.185955.18494@news.stolaf.edu>, waltner@acc.stolaf.edu (Wallace J. Waltner ) writes...
> 
>Well, I happen to be Mennonite (General Conference).  Admittedly, I'm still
>conservative, but to answer your question, I'm not Baptist.
> 
>As long as we're on the subject, Any other Mennonites read r.m.c??
> 
>--Wally Waltner
>	 "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord!"
> 
>P.S.  It's more important to be a Christian than a (insert your denomination
>      here).  

	I agree with your post script, Wally. I'm sick and tired of 
	the inter-denominational squabbles which only divide Christianity
	and provide fodder for its detractors. 

	For the record, I attend a small, non-denominational church which
	breaks down into smaller "home-churches" that meet once (or more)
	during the week. I don't know of any other church in my town 
	which has a tighter fellowship than ours (of course I'm boasting
	here :-)). It is meeting my needs splendidly. 

	En agape,

	Ray De Frese
	Texas A&M University
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian