Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 17 Jul 92 17:04:07 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Jul7.234932.7689@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>Scott Gibson seems to have missed the point that I was making, that
>Israel has been criticized in recent years remarkably out of proportion
>to what Israel is actually accused of having done.

I missed no point at all.  I understand, first, that Israel has been 
subjected to more criticism than Israel's neighbors; and second, that
you believe this is an unfair treatment of Israel.  I agree, in 
general, that this does not show a balanced treatment of Israel and
her neighbors.

This isn't where we have a dispute, Jake.  Where we part ways, is that
_you_ believe that any criticism of Israel can be waved away by referring
to these facts, while _I_ believe that it is dishonest to reject valid
criticism in this fashion.

>Yes.  The alternative punishments, like public hanging, beheading
>and death by firing squad are not available in Israel though they 
>are all common events in surrounding Arab countries.

The issue is not the type of punishment involved (though that serves
to either mitigate or enhance the moral outrage, depending upon which
example you examine).  The issue is that the punishment is meted out
without regard to guilt, and without regard to due process.

>Yes.  While "Intifada" gives this uprising a slightly exotic and 
>romantic air, it is actually a civil war in which part of the population
>has resorted to frequent bombings, shootings and barbaric axe-hackings
>of civilians on city streets and country roads.

The issue is not that Israeli forces have killed Arabs actually in
the act of performing such heinous deeds, but rather that Israeli
forces have, from time to time, wantonly rained destruction down on
third parties, some of whom cannot be considered anything but
innocent of the crimes you mention.

>Yes.  If you truly have a problem with imprisoning people for rioting,
>then there is no point in debating with you any longer.  I sincerely
>hope this isn't the case.

Nope.  I have a problem with your definition of "riot."  While I
would freely admit that some of those jailed were, in fact, rioting,
it is equally clear that many have been jailed because someone thought
they had been, or would be, rioting.  Due process, again.

>I have done so because the criticism of Israel in recent years has 
>been hysterically hyocritical.  Obviously, Israel is not perfect,
>but both the criticism and the critics of Israel have been without
>credibility.

Hysterical?  I?

>I disapprove strongly with Israel's socialist economic policies
>which the Bush administration seems intent on preserving.  Moving
>to a more market-oriented economy, like the East-bloc is now doing,
>is vital.  Continued kowtowing to union demands cripples the Israeli
>economy making it dependent on continued US aid - which is the way 
>Bush wants it.

Nice try.  How about choosing one example of Israely behaviour toward
Palestinians with which you disagree?

>Secondly, I have now responded to all of your comments.  What is your 
>next problem?

That you haven't responded to any of them with any integrity.



-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.