From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: Derailing the Reagan Revolution: Part zero: highlights
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:13:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.133017.3653@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.054732.23693@meteor.wisc.edu>, stvjas@meteor.wisc.edu (Stephen Jascourt) writes:
>...
>> Real socialists were saying all along, for many decades now, that those
>> countries were *not* socialist. The term socialism is filled with mythologies
>> created by both the western capitalist states and the Soviet-block state
>> capitalists. The Soviet block countries did not empower the masses nor did
>> it make decisions for their benefit and well-being. Its policies were not one
>> of socialism. An centralized economy controlled by the state is not what
>> socialism is all about. Socialism is about  determining production and modes
>> of production according to the needs of society with fair and equal input by
>> all members of that society, and in a practical sense would work best with 
>> most things determined on a highly decentralized organization so that people
>> have the most control over things that affect them most directly. But it
>> is understandable how Brett and others misunderstood socialism, because of
>> the popular mythology surrounding that term.
>
>	Sure I understand what socialism is.  It's whatever countries around
>the world aren't.  That way whenever someone points out the tragedies befalling
>socialist economies, TRUE BELIEVERS can say "but that's not socialism".
>
>	Fine, REAL CAPITALISM has never been tried.  It ensures wealth and
>prosperity to all who embrace it.  Those who accept capitalism as their saviour
>will be sent to heaven upon death.  Capitalism is utopia.
>
>	Believe, believe, believe!
>
>>>	But they called themselves socialist.  They named themselves socialist. 
>>>They followed socialist precepts.  They quacked like socialists.
>> 
>> They did not follow socialist precepts. As for quacking, I'll duck such a
>> foul remark. :) :)
>
>	The question still remains, if socialism is so good, why hasn't anyone
>tried it, and why wouldn't there be at least one socialist paradise by now?

Tried both successfully and unsuccessfully in many countries see below.
Like any system in the real world it does not bring paradise in
its pragmatic form just some new ideas, like liberalism and 
conservatism. It might frighten you to know that Three of Canadas
provinces all bordering on the USA have socialist governments
Ontario, B.C. and Saskatchewan. I hope this does not terrify you.

>>>	Oh--all this backpeddling would be just a wee bit more believable if it
>>>had been done during the heydays of the xUSSR, instead of after the coup
>>>failed.
>> 
>> It was, but nobody was listening, and the volume is proportional to what the
>> press will print, and the press didn't want to undermine the popular mythology.
>
>	Was there a single major organization that labeled itself socialist
>that rejected the xUSSR and its ilk?

The socialist international. this is a federation of all the 
social-democratic political parties of the world including the
German SPD the french socialists the British Labor Party
the Canadian NDP, the American DSA (A socialist subcaucus of
the Democratic party, congressman Ron Dellums (D-CA) is a member)
The South Korean opposition party, the Japan Socialist party
(The second largest party in the DIET), The Israeli Labor party
the Australina Labor party, the governing party in Venesuela
and many other mainstream political parties around the world
many of which have power in their respective countries. This
is a diluted form of socialism which is successfully applicable
to the real world. Its successes and failures have been found and tested
just as have the successes and failures of the two other main 
political philosophies of the democratic world today liberalism and
conservatism. Several governments in the socialist international
were involved in the cold war on the same side as the Americans.

>Brett                                                      
>_______________________________________________________________________________
>Proconsul Computer Consulting                                        CHA-CHING!
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>Disclaimer:								   NOT!

Alex
(The Social-democratic secular humanist)
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