HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Sustainable lifestyles
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:00:42 GMT

>
>   A fierce fighter is not the same as a violence-prone person.  The point
>   is that this "lower" standard of living exists in a society more
>   peaceful and less prone to violence than the US.
>
>Didn't Nepal have severe civil riots in the last year or two
>in protest over govenrment suppression?

I never said there was a complete absence of violence.  The people did react
to violence from the monarchy.

>   >severly reduce my living standard. Is the other way better?
>
>   Obviously not for you.  The subject here is the possible correlation
>   between violence and material standards of living.  Does your last
>   statement relate to this?
>
>Did yours? Do you assert that they are not violent _because_ they
>have a low material standard of living? Or that they have
>a low standard of living because they are not violent?
>My culture is by any measure much less violent than US culture
>and has _higher_ standard of material living.

I claim no correlation either way.  I was simply responding the the claim
of McCarthy that low material standards of living _do_ correlate with
more violence.  He has now, as usual, departed from the thread.
The aspects of culture that lead to more or less
violence are highly complex and, IMHO, do not directly correlate
with standards of living.  

>
>
>*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
>*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
>*  Some people think they're really clever			*
>*  Smash your head against the wall            Specials, 1979	* 


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)
From: Alan McGowen <alanm@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:27 PDT
Subject: Re: Nature's Rights and Muddled Dietz
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1466601799:cdp:1466601805:000:2096
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!alanm    Oct 12 17:27:00 1992



Dietz:
>Let me rephrase the argument: it begs the question to equate the
>"humans are different from non-humans" position to the "whites are
>different from blacks" position.  We do not accept the latter.  This
>is not because we accept that differences are ethically suspect.
>The analogy can be accepted only if we accept that the mapping of the
>objects of the arguments (whites --> humans, blacks --> non-humans)
>are valid.  But, as I said, this begs the question.

The question which is being begged is whether "we accept (or do 
not accept) X" is sufficient reason why X should be true. If it 
is suffient reason today, why was it not sufficient reason among 
the 19th century slaveowners? Perhaps in the 21st century "we 
will accept" the moral standing of ecosystems, and that fact of 
acceptance will prove Dietz to have been wrong? Or is he simply 
saying that whatever a society accepts at the moment is right at 
the moment, and that is the end of discussion? 

>Is Alan saying that *any* statement of the form "X has moral priority
>over Y" is impermissible, because a slaveholder could have said
>"whites have moral priority over blacks"?  If so, the theory is
>vacuous.  If not, then a separate criterion for judging just which X
>and Y are allowed has been slipped in.

It has not just been "slipped in" -- it was the whole point! I 
wrote two posts about the "separate criteria" -- the "Rights for 
Rocks!" post and the basenote of this thread. It is *not* my view 
that criteria are irrelevant. Is it Dietz' view that they are? 

>So, I ask again, just why *shouldn't* I accept the "humans have
>priority over non-humans" position?  The formal similarity of this
>statement to the slaveholder's "whites have priority over blacks"
>is insufficient reason.

My argument was not based on a "formal similarity" -- which is 
merely a restatement of Sigurdsson's original "slippery-slope" 
objection. I've offered plenty of positive reasons for attaching 
moral standing to ecosystems beyond mere "formal similarity". 
Evidently Dietz didn't notice them.

------------
Alan McGowen
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Sustainable lifestyles
Date: 16 Oct 92 22:47:34 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester

In article <1992Oct16.203428.25214@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

>>Remember Ehrlich's intellectual catastrophe over metal prices.
>>Do you have in mind some material throughput that you think cannot
>>be increased without harm?  There are some, perhaps, but there are
>>also substitutes.

>especially in the "west".  Ehrlich obviously jumps the gun and is
>too spontaneous.  Once again you are trying to disprove something
>by isolating a single commodity.  I don't doubt that consumption
>of any one or two commodities could be explained away.  The
>cumulative cost of the many substitutions will grow, as will the
>cost of dealing with their pollution.  If per capita consumption
>continues to grow, the rates of substitution increase, and the
>overhead of substitution, which is a non-productive cost to
>society, grows.  This is the value of studying
>consumption with an aggregate model.

The Ehrlich bet wasn't a single commodity, it was five metals.  All
went down in price.  As did many other commodities, including
grains.

An "aggregate model" had better be consistent with existing trends.
These trends are towards lower prices and increased substitutability.
If it predicts a deviation from this trend, it had better have a good
reason for predicting it -- a reason that had better be a product of
specific information about availability of specific resources, or
effects of specific pollutants.  If not, the model is just a formulation
of unsubstantiated opinion.

Specific examination of the materials we mine shows that, with the
exception of reduced carbon (fossil fuels), the minerals we consume in
large quantities are available in almost unlimited amounts, in grades
not much lower than ore being mined today.  We consume much more
limestone, iron, and aluminum than we do copper, chromium or nickel.
We spend more money and energy for these common materials as well.
The cost of substituting for the infrequently-used materials should
not be large.  One possible exception is phosphorus -- we'll have to
recycle it more efficiently as lower grade deposits are mined.  Still,
that's not that pressing, yet.

To first order, the resource problem is an energy problem.
Fortunately, it appears that several non-fossil energy sources will be
able to take over when the point is reached that fossil fuels cannot
be used.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers)
Subject: Re: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 02:31:18 GMT

fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda) writes:

> The La Motte test kit gives me a reading of ~400 ppm CaC03 for freshly mixed 
>Instant Ocean.

Which of their test kits are you refering to?  In other words, what
does the label on the box say?

BTW, don't sweat things too much while you're learning the ropes of
"hardness".  Your tank is probably fine right now.  I went for years
without some of my kits.  It's nice to have them though so you can see
what the tank is doing and avoid problems.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
From: 01mbmccabe@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: [F] Oscars vs. Everything else!
Date: 15 Oct 92 06:33:50 GMT

Can anyone tell me the fundamental differences between Oscars adn other
Cichlids?  Why are they deservingof their own Genus Species?  Are there
distinct behavioral differences?  If so how can I make the mostof these?  If
not, what ARE the differences?


			_Matt
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda)
Subject: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Reply-To: fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University/Applied Physics Labs
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 13:15:50 GMT

I was looking at Martin Moe's Marine Reference book and I'm puzzled by
his dKH conversion (cf. p. 36) . Sea water should have ~400 ppm Ca+2 ions or 
equivalently, ~1000 ppm CaCO3. Now if I take his conversion to dKH I either 
divide ppm CaCO2 by 17.9 or multiply by 0.05 (I'll forgive his approximation 
0.05 ~1/17.9). If I follow his prescription and divide by 17.9 this means I 
would get a dKH for sea water of 

		(1000 ppm CaCO3)/17.9 ~ 56 dKH.


From his comments on p. 36 and from other sources it's clear that sea water 
should have a dKH of less than 7. So what's going on here? I suspect a typo
somewhere. I don't think that his conversion is from Ca+2 instead of CaCO3 
because this would result in 

		(400 ppm Ca+2)/17.9 ~ 22 dKH

which is still too high. Does anyone know what the correct conversion is? Or
am I just being stupid here?

Fernando Pineda (fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: glee@athena.mit.edu (Gilbert Huppert)
Subject: Re: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:37:25 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.031021.22383@javelin.sim.es.com> krogers@javelin.sim.es.com writes:
>I'm not suggesting, I'm reporting.  There are many kinds of "hardness"
>which are measured.  The term is applied to any practically any
>disolved substance in water.  Here's a micro coredump of what is
>important for aquarists as I understand it.  It may not be entirely
>correct; others are welcome to throw in their input.
>

This is the main confusion.  I believe that everything that Keith writes
is indeed accurate.  His terms are correct as far as I have been able to
establish.  Part of the confusion comes from the water analysis people 
who like to use CaCO3 equivalents because CaCO3 has a nice molecular weight (100).
This also leads to confusion since some people (especially in salt water
aquaria) will talk about Ca++ concentrations, and most test kits are calibrated
to read in CaCO3 equivalents.  This is a very frequently asked question, and
I believe that Keith's reply should be added to the FAQ file for the *.aquaria
groups (I have seen at least a dozen discussions on related issues in the 
past year).


Good Job Keith



--
Gilbert Lee Huppert (glee@athena.mit.edu)
Materials Etching Technology Laboratory
From: czap@ellis.uchicago.edu (Satan)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Address request
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:04:48 GMT
Reply-To: czap@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

Can anyone out there please send me the address for woods hole?
I had it last year but lost it over the summer, now I can't send email to my friend who does research there. Please send it to czap@ellis.uchicago.edu
					     Thank you,
						Mike

-- 
 czap@ellis.uchicago.edu  
 "Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
From: scol@scottsdale.az.stratus.com (Scott Colbath)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: [F]Question on plants.
Date: 8 Oct 92 17:20:40 GMT


I have read the FAQ on plant growing. The suggestions there are very good but  
it sounds like more trouble and expense that I want. With my 29 gallon  
freshwater tank, could I just add some pre-grown potted or non-potted healthy  
plants of a hearty variety, put a good bulb in my light fixture and expect the  
plants to survive? I don't necessarily need great growth, I just want them to  
be healthy.
--
**********************************************************
Scott Colbath
Stratus Computer
Phoenix, Az.  (602)852-3106
Internet:scott_colbath@az.stratus.com
**********************************************************
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Isoetes wanted
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:46:46 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

Esteemed aquariasts!  Perhaps you can help out a stray botanist.  I'm
looking for a source of _Isoetes_ -- any species -- to add to our
greenhouse collection.  From a botanical viewpoint it's a fairly interesting
plant -- probably the tail end of the evolutionary line from _Lepidodendron_,
a huge tree of the Carboniferous period.  

If you know of a source of these plants, please post or email, or, if
all else fails, I tend to hang out in rec.gardens.

Thanks!

Kay Klier   Biology Dept  UNI   in%"klier@iscsvax.uni.edu"
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda)
Subject: Re: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Reply-To: fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University/Applied Physics Labs
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:42:40 GMT

In my second post I said: 

> The La Motte test kit gives me a reading of ~400 ppm CaC03 for freshly mixed 
>Instant Ocean.
>

This should be:

The La Motte test kit gives me a reading of ~1000 ppm CaC03 or( ~400 ppm Ca+2) 
for freshly mixed Instant Ocean.>


krogers@javelin.sim.es.com inquires:

> Which of their test kits are you refering to?  In other words, what
> does the label on the box say?


Oh-oh --  does this mean that LaMotte has more than one hardness test kit? I 
simply ordered the Ca hardness test kit from my favorite mail order store.  
I'll check the label when I get home tonight. In the mean time if this rings a 
bell: For sea water, the instructions tell me to add 1 ml of sea water to 12.9 
ml of distilled water. After the titration the instructions tell me to multiply 
the results on the syringe by 12.9 to get ppm of CaCO3 or by 5.19 to get ppm
of Ca+2.  This is how I get 1000 ppm CaCO3 and 400 ppm Ca+2 respectively.

Anyway,  I'm satisfied with the calcium measurement I'm getting. But it bothers 
me that I still can't make sense of the dKH conversion. 

Thanks for the input -- Fernando




Fernando Pineda (fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu)
Xref: sparky sci.aquaria:1433 alt.aquaria:5283
From: birger@sdata.no (Birger A. Wathne)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria,alt.aquaria
Subject: Re: Need Help With Ick!!!
Date: 8 Oct 92 09:01:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: alf.1992Oct8.090133.17172
Reply-To: birger@sdata.no
Organization: Skrivervik Data A/S

I tried mailing you directly, but my mail bounced.

You may not have changed the temperature in the tank, but you certainly
changed both temperature, Ph and Gh for the new fish. That may be enough for them
to spread the illness to the rest of your fish.

We have had a few outbreaks. We have usually treated it with Tetra
'ContraIck' and 'General Tonic'. The last outbreak was bad.  After a
few days of treatment it got steadily worse, so we moved all the fish
from the big tank (530l) to a small one (100l) that was only half full,
and treated them with 'Ectozone' instead. It has helped.

We lost a few Tetras, but our two Heros Severus survived. They were badly
attacked, but they are big, healthy fish. We have now treated the big
tank as well, and are about to change the water in it. In a few days,
we will move most of the fish back.


---
Birger A. Wathne
Email  : birger@sdata.no        birger@ii.uib.no
Private: Fjoesangervn. 133, N-5032 Minde           Tel: +47 5 200062
Work   : Skrivervik Data A/S                       Tel: +47 5 543740
         Thormoehlensgt 55, N-5008 Bergen          Fax: +47 5 322853
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers)
Subject: Re: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:48:43 GMT

fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda) writes:

>The La Motte test kit gives me a reading of ~1000 ppm CaC03 or( ~400
>ppm Ca+2) for freshly mixed Instant Ocean.>

>Oh-oh --  does this mean that LaMotte has more than one hardness test kit? I 
>simply ordered the Ca hardness test kit from my favorite mail order store.  

I don't know what all kits they make.  I'm assuming they have all the
standard hardness ones.  Anyway, you seem sure you're measuring
calcium and the 1000 ppm is a very reasonable value for that.  In the
aquarium hobby we use ppm (or mg/l - almost identical) for calcium
measurements.  I think the boiler industry uses degrees of some kind
or, shudder, grains/gallon (now there's a great unit).

Why are you trying to convert to degrees of calcium hardness?  Moe,
Tullock and Thiel all use mg/l - ppm.  I thought you wanted to convert
to compare with what they recommend.  They recommend in mg/l, not
degrees.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Xref: sparky sci.aquaria:1431 rec.aquaria:7905
From: holly@sybase.com (Innocent Bystander)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria,rec.aquaria
Subject: (M) Kole Tang?
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:53:15 GMT
Reply-To: holly@sybase.com (Innocent Bystander)
Distribution: na
Organization: Sybase, Inc.



Hi.  What's the scientific name of the Kole Tang?

Thanks,
holly
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
holly@sybase.com 			   *Who else would want this opinion?*
Soff^H^H^HophH^H^H^Hoftwea^H^H^aer Enj^H^H^HEngn^H^H^H^H, uh, Programmer
Sybase, Inc.
From: todd.paulus%theweb@meaddata.com (Todd Paulus) 
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
Subject: Re: Resealing glass tank
Date: 11 Oct 92 22:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: todd.paulus%theweb@meaddata.com (Todd Paulus) 


BO.Newsgroups: rec.aquaria,sci.aquaria,alt.aquaria
  .From: bob@hubcap.clemson.edu (Bob)
  .Subject: Re: Resealing glass tank
  .Message-ID: <1992Oct3.214902.15086@hubcap.clemson.edu>
  .Keywords: tank
  .Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 21:49:02 GMT

BO.In article <1992Oct3.191312.7754@hubcap.clemson.edu> bob@hubcap.clemson.edu (
  .) writes:
  .>Hi all!
  .>
  .>     I just bought a 75 gallon tank from a friend and intend to set up
  .>yet another salt water tank (my third). It seems to have bubbles in the
  .>sealant on all four corners. Since all my other tanks are new and have
  .>never leaked I need some help on resealing this tank.
  .>     If anyone out there has done this before I could use some hints,
  .>tips, suggestions. Should I do it myself (I am pretty handy just never
  .>done this before) or should I take it to my local pet shop?
  .>     If I do it myself, should I take out all the sealant and redo the
  .>whole thing or can I just touch it up here and there. The tank looks
  .>like it has been resealed before and it was a lousey job. I would prefer
  .>to do the whole thing over.
BO.     I have  DOW Corning 100% Silicone Sealant. It says
  .that it is safe for food contact once cured and washed. It has a note on
  .it that says "Corrodes some metals, not recommended for underwater use.
  .I am assuming they mean that it should not be used to seal the hull of
  .your boat. Anyone know if this sealant would be ok for my tank? What
  .should I get? How is the best way to apply the sealant to get the smooth
  .and almost invisble seams that I have in my new tanks.

I just went through a similar problem.  My 90 gallon sprung a leak and I
had to take it down and repair it.  It is now sitting outside about 75%
full to see if I was successful in fixing the leak in the bottom seam.
I found out, BTW, from our local store expert (he really is!) that there
seems to be something unique about the reef tanks; that is, all three of
the reef tanks he has started up in his store over the last 4 years,
have eventually sprung leaks, but NONE of the other tanks have EVER
leaked - and that's a lot of tanks.  Hmmmmmmmm. .... Anyway, you had a
question.  I used GE Silicone Rubber, General Household Sealant, 35 year
durability, supposedly.  My local 'expert' has used it without problems,
and it does say "ideal for aquarium repair" right on the tube...."allow
48 hours to cure".  Also, I was given a very practical suggestion about
application, that you may or may not know about....use a plastic spoon
to spread the bead onto both surfaces of the tank after you lay the bead
into the corners.  It works pretty well.  Good luck!


Regards,
Todd

---
 . OLX 2.2 . Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
                                                                            
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria
From: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com (K. Rogers)
Subject: Re: dKH to ppm CaCO3 conversion
Reply-To: krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:40:47 GMT

fernando@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (Fernando Pineda) writes:

>I was looking at Martin Moe's Marine Reference book and I'm puzzled by
>his dKH conversion (cf. p. 36) . Sea water should have ~400 ppm Ca+2 ions or 
>equivalently, ~1000 ppm CaCO3. Now if I take his conversion to dKH I either 
>divide ppm CaCO2 by 17.9 or multiply by 0.05 (I'll forgive his approximation 
>0.05 ~1/17.9).

[calculations deleted]

You're confused on the various hardnesses.  You're trying to equate
calcium hardness with carbonate hardness.  Both are measured as CaCO3
by the test kits available.  The 17.9 conversion is for carbonate
hardness.  To confuse things even more, total hardness is also
expressed as equivalent amounts of CaCO3.

Generally speaking, when "hardness" is mentioned with respect to
seawater, they're refering to carbonate hardness.  That hardness is
some 7 german degrees or 3.5 meq/l in "standard" seawater.

Calcium hardness is measured to insure sufficient calcium for inverts
to use.  As you cited, a value of 1000 mg/l CaCO3 = 400 mg/l Ca ion
which is a good value to keep.  I keep my tank between 400-500 mg/l.
The Halimeda seems to do better when things are closer to 500 but I
also find more limestone deposits at those levels as well.

It took me a long time to get the hardnesses straight in my mind, and
I'm still not sure I have a complete understanding of them.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers@javelin.sim.es.com
Xref: sparky sci.aquaria:1432 alt.aquaria:5270 rec.aquaria:7906
From: zari@ee.fit.edu (Kevin Zari)
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria,alt.aquaria,rec.aquaria
Subject: stringy green algae
Summary: how to get rid of this
Date: 9 Oct 92 03:14:43 GMT
Followup-To: sci.aquaria
Organization: Florida Tech, CP/EE Dept.

i came home from a week vacation and found my tank
filled with stringy green algae (looks like hair).
I did leave the light on but gosh, there is an awefull
lot of this stuff in there (salt water 30 gal).
How can I get rid of it besides the obvious: washing
the coral decorations with high pressure water?

please e-mail rather than post because I don't get to 
get on the news server too often.
	
	Thanks in advance
		
		kz
zari@ee.fit.edu
Newsgroups: sci.aquaria