HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schumach@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Lee Schumacher)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Making boards?
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:13:13 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics

>In article <1992Apr14.151829.24377@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Kenneth.E.Harker@dartmouth.edu (Kenneth E. Harker) writes:
>   In article <dove.702756781@elaine14.Stanford.EDU>
>   dove@elaine14.Stanford.EDU (Dav Somebody) writes:
>
>   > anyone have any tips on making your own boards?  how about a price
>   > list on stones and bowls?  
>   > 
>   > thanx, 
>   > dav
>
[munch]

>   the board anywhere from 1/2" to 2" thick.  For putting on lines (this
>   is the part I'm still thinking about), the easiest way is probably to
>   get a straight edge, and a pen that will create the width of line that
>   you like as well as not spread with the grain of the wood (i.e. try
>   things with scraps of the wood your board is made out of) and just draw
>   them on yourself.  I have also heard of people making silkscreens, or
>   inlaying a dark wood (a little too complex for my woodworking skills,
>   personally) for the grid.  
>

There was an article in go world last year about the making of go
boards.  Maybe Anton can provide a reference for us.  My recollection
was that the lines are made by 'dipping a katana [sword!] in laquer
and laying it down in one smooth motion'.  This sounds nuts, but then
they go on to describe the modern substitute: a curve semi-circular
'blade' with a handle at each end, which is dipped in laquer and then
smoothly rolled across the board.  A local player I know used black 'tape'
of the kind electrical engineers use for laying out circuit diagrams, and then
varnishing over it.  Worked pretty well.

  Lee
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: dove@elaine14.Stanford.EDU (Dav Somebody)
Subject: Making boards?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Date:  8 Apr 92 18:13:01 GMT

anyone have any tips on making your own boards?  how about a price
list on stones and bowls?  

thanx, 
dav

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: stig@ichips.intel.com (Jonathan Stigelman)
Subject: Prices for go boards and stones?
Originator: stig@pdx200
Organization: Big business SUCKS
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 19:59:01 GMT


I was just looking at some go boards this morning and I found the prices to
be higher than I had expected...  (Of course, I'm pretty cheap.)

Are there cheap mail order sources for go boards and stones?  If not, what
are reasonable prices to pay locally?

	thanks,
	stig


-- 
Jonathan Stigelman  /  stig@ichips.intel.com  /  stig@rabbit.ece.cmu.edu
   
work/message 503-696-4343	Portland radio SUCKS,
home/message 503-224-0675	...but the weather ROCKS!
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: chen@informatics.wustl.edu (The Chenster)
Subject: Re: Life or death?
Organization: Washington University in Saint Louis, Missouri USA
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 07:07:57 GMT

stig@ichips.intel.com (Jonathan Stigelman) writes:


>. . . . . . . .
>. . . . . . . .
># # . . . . . .
>O O # . . . . .
>. O O # . . . .
>O # O O # . . .
>O # O O # . . .
>. # . O # . . .

>In a game against igo (on the PC) the situation above happenned (I was white)
>and the program decided that all of my stones were dead.  Seems to me that
>white is alive.  Black can't make any moves inside my big eye because of a
>shortage of liberties....so black cannot capture the white stones, no matter
>what...that IS the definition of life, right?  

>Am I missing something?

    Well not exactly.   If you look carefully, you will notice that 
neither side can move without being captured.  This is a situation
called "seki," where the rule is neither side can claim captured stones
or territory (including that one white "eye" on the left.)

                                                 William Chen
From: adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Go Problem 13
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:49:48 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

In <1992Apr6.142839.2465@otago.ac.nz> barryp@otago.ac.nz writes:


>The following sequence gives ko.  The same moves on the other side can be used
>as ko threats (make double ko).

>. O . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>O O . X 1 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>. . O 2 6 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . 
>. X . X . . . . . + . . . . . + . . . 
>. . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 


What happens if black 2 at 4?

. O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
O O . X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
. . O 4 3 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . 
. X . X . . . . . + . . . . . + . . . 
. . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 


(I shortened the board -- there is another stone on the left side.)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 15:01:17 CDT
From: <U31231@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Problem with Many Faces

  I just purchased Many Faces of Go but I'm having some problems with the
interface.  The arrow icon will only go as far as the middle of the screen
from the left side, this makes some moves impossible to make (on the right
side of the board).  Actually I can make moves on the right but it seems as
though every move I make is shifted many units to the right; for example if
I make a move on the far left side of the corner, the move is made somewhere
in the middle of the board.  This is making it impossible to play and I would
appreciate any help on how I can fix it.  I don't think my compatibilty is a
problem because everything else runs fine.
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Tue,  7 Apr 1992 18:12:54 -0400 
From: Victor Lin <vl11+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: empty triangle

Jon Ferro wrote:

>I have heard many times of an "empty triangle" as being a canonical
>example of bad shape.  Could the collective mind of this group please
>explain to me both what this is and why it has such a poor reputation?
>I am currently reading the Davies book "Tesuji" and he mentions it
>several times but apparently expects that I have picked up this bit of
>terminology beforehand.  Thanks.
> 
>--
>Jon Ferro		MIT Transportation Modelling Research Center (TMRC)
>jf41+@andrew.cmu.edu	"We can hack it!"
>SGNTR VRS VRSN 3.1B: Strppd nd cmprssd fr qckr trnsmssn! nfct yrs tdy!

Well, consider this.

 ...      ..
.XXX.    .XX.
 ...     .X.
          .

With three stones, the most liberties you can have is eight, shown by
the left diagram above.  The diagram on the right is the "empty triangle",
which only has seven liberties.  

Consider the case with four stones.

 ....     ...      ...      ..
.XXXX.   .XXX.    .XXX.    .XX.
 ....    .X..      .X.     .XX.
          .         .       ..

Again the best case is when you have the four stones lined up, having
ten liberties.  The second case represents another "aki-sankaku" or
"empty triangle".  It only has nine liberties.  In the third diagram we
have TWO
"empty triangle"'s, thus it only has eight liberties.  The last case
represents a "dango", a "cluster".  This is the WORST shape you can
have, therefore it is almost never seen in a professional game.  It is
almost a taboo for the pros.

Similar arguments can be made with five or more stones.

Exceptions:

......
.aXXb.                
..XOO.
......

In the above diagram black does not have an "empty triangle".  In this
case black does not have a bad shape (actually quite a good one!).  The
reason behind this is because all black stones are efficient.  They keep
pressure on the two white stones (by taking away their liberties).  In
the case where there is an additional black stone at "a", however, we
have an "empty triangle".  The extra stone does not affect any white
stone while increasing the number of liberties by only one.  Therefore,
we consider the black stone at "a" inefficient.  Having the black stone
at "b" instead is a much better move.  True, it only increases the
number of liberties by one, but it exerts a lot of pressure on the two
white stones (by reducing the number of white's liberties by one).

Any additional comments are welcome.

 

    

  

--------------------------------------------
Victor H. Lin		          "Life's Hell, especially if  
vl11+@andrew.cmu.edu      you make it that way!!" 
(412)681-3139			          -- V. L.
--------------------------------------------
From: olounela@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Olli Lounela)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Beginner seeks introductory games
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:04:03 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Apr8.122521.999@rhrk.uni-kl.de> kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>Finding out when the game is over means knowing when nothing
>profitable can be done anymore, so you can find that by looking
>for profitable moves.  That means you have to read out
>positions, that is, thinking about possible sequences of moves
>and counting territory differences.  That requires a bit of
>training.

Well, I think this inaccurate.  A better way to put it:

A game is over once the players agree it's over.  This happens when
neither sees a way to gain more points on the board. 

Of course there are lots of ways to ensure this is the case, but those
two lines essentially tell the thing.  (an example: there are rules that
require three consequtive passes to end the game)

To say this means reading, is kind of half-truth.  Yes, you need to know
what's the situation , or at least you think you know (boy, do I
remember cases whan I was *WRONG* in this).  Reading is, however, not
entirely necessary for forming an opinion.  Of course, the better you
read, the more accurate the opinion. 

	Olli, 3 dan
-- 
E-mail: olounela@cc.helsinki.fi           ! .sig still under construction.
Blame me only for any opinions expressed. !  Never you mind, I don't either.
From: giordano@irisa.fr (Jean-Yves Giordano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Problem
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:42:53 GMT
Organization: IRISA, Rennes (Fr)

How about this one ?

. O . . . . . . .
O O . . . . . . .
. . # # . . . . .
. . # # . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .

Black to kill

J-Yves.
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: About go
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:02:09 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.210252.332@vaxsar.vassar.edu>, jopollack@vaxsar.vassar.edu writes:
> What are the rules of go?  I'm told Othello is modelled on it; Othello happens
> to be one of my all-time faves.  Anyone?

Whoops, nobody answers.
You could look at the FAQ.  It's the article
"The Game Go -- Frequently Asked Questions" by Adrian Mariano.
     
-- 
-Caddy--(thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany)-----
The question of whether the electron is a wave or a particle
has a clear and definite answer:  No.
From: hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Current state of go software for PC or Atari ST?
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:52:37 GMT
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands

In <1992Apr7.152809.19011@pbhya.PacBell.COM> gdridle@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Guy D. Ridley) writes:
>Is there anything that's substantially better than Nemesis?   Is a 10-12kyu
>program still far in the future?   I'm mainly interested in what I can
>buy for home.

Mark Boon claims that his Goliath program is 10 kyu.

That means, of course, that it has a 50% chance of beating a human 10 kyu,
on the first try.  Once the human gets used to playing the program, s/he
learns its weaknesses and wins more easily.  And s/he learns to overplays
that the program cannot refute, but other humans can.

Whether you can Goliath "substantially better" than Nemesis is open for
debate.  Goliath has beaten Nemesis in every computer tournament for the
past 5 years or so.  But it isn't a major breakthrough in Go programming
technology, it's the same idea implemented slightly better.  Mark has spent
a lot of time letting Goliath play against Nemesis, finding a blunder that
cost Goliath the game, and tweaking it so it never ever makes that
particular mistake again.  It has won him the World Championship three
times, but it doesn't seem to get Goliath stronger than 10 kyu or so.

Last time I looked, Goliath was sold for DFL 99.
I don't have the address of the publisher handy, but it is in the FAQ list.

--
Hope this helps,

Hans Mulder		hansm@cs.kun.nl			1 kyu
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Wednesday, 8 Apr 1992 13:52:41 MST
From: Francis Larscheid <AOFEL@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Improving One's Game
 <MOHRI.92Apr8042445@amber.math.keio.ac.jp>

In article <1992Mar30.163240.8642@sunb10.cs.uiuc.edu>
droberts@sunc5.cs.uiuc.edu (Donald B Roberts) writes:

 >I was wondering what the best way is to improve my game. I know that playing
 >many, many games is important, but what other methods should I employ? When
 >should I study joseki? Etc.

Playing many games isn't so important.
You'd better study and appreciate good professional games.

--
Nobuyuki MOHRI
mohri@math.keio.ac.jp

I'd like to echo that...I've studied a little joseki, played a lot
of games, read tesuji, life and death, etc. but the studying I
found to improve my play the most was studying professional games
and recording my own and studying my mistakes.
From: inb@creare.COM (Ian Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Improving One's Game
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:53:44 GMT
Reply-To: inb@creare.UUCP (Ian Brown)
Organization: Creare Inc., Hanover, NH

In article <1992Apr8.152918.8925@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jfbuss@maytag.waterloo.edu (Jonathan Buss) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.114454.1719@klaava.Helsinki.FI> cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
>>In article <MOHRI.92Apr8042445@amber.math.keio.ac.jp> mohri@math.keio.ac.jp (Nobuyuki &) writes:
>>>In article <1992Mar30.163240.8642@sunb10.cs.uiuc.edu>
>>>droberts@sunc5.cs.uiuc.edu (Donald B Roberts) writes:
>>>>I was wondering what the best way is to improve my game. I know that playing
>>>>many, many games is important, but what other methods should I employ? When
>>>>should I study joseki? Etc.
>>>Playing many games isn't so important.
>>>You'd better study and appreciate good professional games.
>>That's a load of you-know-what. Of course, it depends on the level you
>>are, but I understood the original poster was about 20 kyu. You don't
>>have much to appreciate prof. games with.
>>Play a lot.
>Playing many games isn't all-important; it can even be hazardous to
>your ability.  Studying one professional game will teach you more than
>playing several games of your own.

I think that Tero made a good point, however: at 20kyu (even at 5kyu, which is
my rank), understanding a professional game, even a properly explained one, can
be difficult.  To truly understand the game, you need to be able to determine
what other moves were possible (some may be shown in the explanation, but I
doubt that all of them will be) and why they were rejected.  This may mean
playing out alternatives - something that is hard to do very well, unless you
already have a feel for the game.

I think that one should study the games, whether or not you can understand
them, but that, at such an early stage in ones development, it is better to
play the extra games than to spend the extra time studying.




-- 
Ian Brown
inb@creare.com
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: dvl@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Doug Larson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Problem with Many Faces
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:47:47 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino

> Isn't the correct move "PASS"?
> 
> suppose white were to 'fight'.
> 
>  . O . 2 . . . . .
>  O O 1 3 4 . . . .
>  7 6 # # . . . . .
>  . 5 # # . . . . .
>  . 8 . . . . . . .
>  . . . . . . . . .
>  . . . . . . . . .
>  . . . . . . . . .
>  . . . . . . . . .
> 
> 	Timothy D. Prime	(5 kyu)
> ----------
 . O . . . . . . .
 O O . . . . . . .
 . . # # . . . . .
 . . # # . . . . .
 . 1 . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .


What if white moves here for his first move instead of making a 'give up'
move like extending out or making a 1 point jump?  Then you might get 
something that is a little more difficult to read;

 . O . . . . . . .
 O O . . . . . . .
 . . # # . . . . .
 3 2 # # . . . . .
 . 1 . . . . . . .
 . 5 4 . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . .

	Moves 1-5  Etc.

 I'm not really attempting to solve the problem in this posting, just 
pointing out that white has more resources than just extending out.  Now
you can think about it some more :-)

 Doug Larson (3 dan)	 dvl@hpda
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: su@hess.geology.yale.edu (Liqiang Su)
Subject: Go Problem
Organization: Yale University
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 03:33:58 GMT

This is the first time I post something on net, and I am trying to
post some common problems ocurring frequently in real games.
 
Go Problem 1: White plays next move  
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . X . . O 1 . O . X . . . . . . . .
. . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Go Problem 2: White plays next move 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . .
. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


1's are unprompt move(black).
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith)
Subject: Re: a new type of komi
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 14:30:06 GMT

In article <10753184.8@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au> 10753184@eng2.eng.monash.edu.au (HARRY RUSLI) writes:
>>I have a suggestion . Why don't we bid for our komi points .Whoever is 
.....[].....
>>that players are responsible for the state of play and therefore there 
>>would be no dispute regarding komi. 

this reminds me of a strange thought i had about a go game variant...

a random generator places (say) 64 stones of each color over the 19x19
board.  then each player studies the position and makes a written estimate
of the outcome.  say player A says "Black by 13" and B says "Black by 9".
then player A gets Black and player B gets white.  if Black wins by 12 or
more, player A wins.  if Black wins by less than 11 or loses, then player
B wins.  if it ends with black winning by 11, then it is a tie and a new
random position is generated.

there is no fuseki/joseki to memorize in volumes of catalogued brain cells.

you could place a time limit on the predictions and do them in sealed rooms,
or allow "seconds" to help analyze.....

- nate
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith)
Subject: Re: Go Timing
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 18:44:30 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.115353.2512@otago.ac.nz> barryp@otago.ac.nz writes:
>The following article was first published in Kiwi Go ( A publication
>of the New Zealand Go Society).
>....[]
> [from article quoted]
>In New Zealand tournaments we use the system of byo-yomi 
>used in the WAGC.  Each player has a set period of time for 
>thinking and when this is used up they get a small amount of 
>time (typically 30 or 60 seconds) to make each move.  This 
>method works well and should be even easier to use now that 
>byo-yomi clocks are available.
>

i like the idea of 2 timers.  in our croquet league each player is given
40 seconds to shoot, after which their total allotted team time (160 secs)
starts to dwindle.  then if they use up all their time, they at least have
40 seconds to shoot.  in go you could do the same, setting the 2 parameters,
40 seconds and 160 seconds to something more appropriate for go.  the clock
to do it was designed by our electronics wizards from radio-shack parts, but
we still havent built it.  (sigh)  someday maybe.

- nate
From: yu@dblab.is.tsukuba.ac.jp (YU Xu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Go Problem 13
Date: 7 Apr 92 02:33:03 GMT
Organization: Inst. of Info. Sci. & Elec., Univ. of Tsukuba, Tsukuba City,
	Ibaraki, Japan

In article <1992Apr2.214116.21884@u.washington.edu> adrian@milton.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano) writes:

>>  I can't figure out this problem (and havn't seen any solutions posted):

The solution is simple.

   Go Problem 13: White plays next move   
   . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   O . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . X 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . 5 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Jeffrey X. Yu
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: stig@ichips.intel.com (Jonathan Stigelman)
Subject: Life or death?
Originator: stig@pdx200
Organization: WCDP
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 05:48:10 GMT


. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
# # . . . . . .
O O # . . . . .
. O O # . . . .
O # O O # . . .
O # O O # . . .
. # . O # . . .

In a game against igo (on the PC) the situation above happenned (I was white)
and the program decided that all of my stones were dead.  Seems to me that
white is alive.  Black can't make any moves inside my big eye because of a
shortage of liberties....so black cannot capture the white stones, no matter
what...that IS the definition of life, right?  

Am I missing something?

	stig, ~ 17k
-- 
Jonathan Stigelman  /  stig@ichips.intel.com  /  stig@rabbit.ece.cmu.edu
   
work/message 503-696-4343	Portland radio SUCKS,
home/message 503-224-0675	...but the weather ROCKS!
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: WANTED: Go game for a PC
From: grads@otago.ac.nz
Date: 13 Apr 92 12:29:34 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

I am looking for a Go game for my PC and would appreciate it if anyone
could put me on to an FTP site or mailserver where a good one could
be found. 

If replies are sent to my e-mail address I can condense them and post for
any others in a similar situation.

    thanks
 
              James Hegarty       syco508@otago.ac.nz

              Dept. of Psychology
              University of Otago,
              Dunedin.
              New Zealand.

Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: txt15@po.CWRU.Edu (Tao Tao)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Go Matches
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:01:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr9.020156.12204
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


The Sino-Japan Go Tournament (NEC sponsored?) is in process.  This annual event
ended with Japan beats China by one game, and the new round starts with the 
Japanese player winning the first game.  The pity is there is no detail about 
the games.

Could someone provide more info on these games?

Tao
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: The only professional 9-dan in the Western world
Date: 7 Apr 92 10:01:18 CDT
Reply-To: SLOANE@UKANVAX.BITNET
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <56389@cup.portal.com>, yuanp@cup.portal.com (yuan x pan) writes:
> Jujo Jiang, who played in the first Sino-Japan Super Go series and defeated
> five of the top Japanese professional in a row, has settled down in the 
> bay area, California. Jujo currently teaches lessons in San Francisco.

Does anyone have any information on the workshop Zhu Jiu Jiang is
holding in Clevland at the end of May this year?  I received the flyer
about it, but was wondering about expected attendance, what the
accomodations are like, etc.
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444