HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: Impressions of the July NT Release
Keywords: NT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:26:26 GMT

kcurtis@inthehat.engin.umich.edu (Keith Curtis) writes:
>I'm not an expert on making operating systems, but my experience
>with Microsoft is that they have a ton to do and they won't be able to
>do it in time.  I cannot believe that they expect it to ship at the
>end of December.  I was a tester for Windows 3.1, and it was very
>stable and seemed ready to ship from the beginning (last June), yet it
>shipped 10 months later.  I cannot understand how NT which is only
>half here could be predicted to ship in 5 months.

They could do the usual and ship an extremely buggy X.0 version and
claim that they made the deadline, then release a X.0a version in a
while with most of the bug-fixes to those who bitch about the bugs,
then a year or so later release version X.1, which is what the product
should have been all along.
-- 
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in
praise of intelligence. -- Bertrand Russell
From: rolfe@w3vh.UUCP (Rolfe Tessem)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: New 586 making older machines obsolete?
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 02:36:29 GMT
Organization: 

RFowler@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov writes in article <RFowler.289@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>:
> 
> 
> The 256k roms in Mac+s will run up to system 6, for system 7 you have to 
> have a Mac II or an upgraded (new motherboard) of the older Macs.

Please don't tell that to any of the Mac Pluses in my office running
System 7.  (What is this doing in comp.os.os2.misc anyway?)

--
Rolfe Tessem               Lucky Duck Productions
rolfe@w3vh.UUCP            17 St. Luke's Place, NYC, NY 10014
rolfe@ldp.com              212-463-0029
From: sjb5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (STACY JOHN BEHRENS)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: The NT file system
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:19:43 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1682C71A7.CIVENBAH@mizzou1.missouri.edu>, CIVENBAH@mizzou1.missouri.
edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.205549.16885@njitgw.njit.edu>
>dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>
>>What will the NT file system offer that HPFS doesn't?  I believe I
>>heard something about multi-user protection, but does that make sense
>>for a non-networked computer?  And OS/2 supports file protection for
>
>Sure, it does.  For example, how about a stand-alone computer used by
>many students at a school.  Each has his homework password protected from
>all other students.....
>
>Brian.
>
Oh come on.  How many high schools have computers with enough horses to run
OS/2 or NT?  The answer is too few.  Colleges might, but then there would
have to be *lots* of them and that isn't practical either.  Besides most
colleges already have lots of money invested in Unix boxes that can do that
already.

                                                Stacy John Behrens
                                                *===)-------------
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS2 Good news and Bad news  (OS2 & a little windows too)
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:03:08 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <9207231723.AA16633@data.src.honeywell.com> bergstro@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom) writes:

>If you're comparing screen performance of the Mac Plus/SE type of
>machine to your 386 pc, there are a heck of a lot fewer pixels to
>sling around the screen.  They also are only 1 bit, rather than the
>more typical 4-8 bits on pc's.

True, OS/2 flies like lightning if you install the CGA driver.  At
monochrome, 640x200, scrolling is fast, and windows just pop up like
that * (<-- pretend I snapped my fingers here...)  But I wouldn't
really want to run anything this way!

Seriously, though, the hi-res and hi-color monitors for Macs are
usually coprocessed.  A fair comparison would be against an 8514/a,
ATI Ultra, or XGA system.

>Leaving aside the rhetorical (I assume) msdog question, app
>performance all depends on what work is being done.  If you're just
>moving a bitmap around the screen, OS/2 is plenty fast on my 20 MHz
>386dx with 8 megs.  Look at Klondike for example.  You can pick up a
>card with the mouse and wave it back and forth across the screen.
>I even have a program that moves an irregularly shaped bitmap (like a
>puzzle piece) in the same manner.  It works very well.

True.  Windows 3.0 is noticably slower when dragging Solitare cards.
And OS/2's cards are 256 colors, compared to Windows' 16-color cards.
Note here, that this is with OS/2's 16-bit graphics engine...  Don't
ask me why.  It could be as simple as Joel Armungaud's OS/2 drivers
working better than ATI's Windows drivers.  Or it could be a superior
graphics engine.  I don't know...

>Note: most Mac applications follow guidelines about how to do things
>and only deviate when it is deemed necessary.  

I've heard that Apple doesn't deal kindly with progammers who deviate
from specified guidelines.  And Apple changes hardware and software
specs enough, that if you violate a guideline, you're likely to become
incompatible with future upgrades.  This is why many apps failed when
they were first run on the Mac IIfx, and on the Quadras - they made
assumptions that they shouldn't have made.


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Windows (Re: MS grasping at straws?...)
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:36:48 GMT

Iskandar Taib writes

>> vi is a dream... Everything in vi is intuitive if you
>> are familiar with other products (like grep, awk, sed,
>> lexx, yacc, c) used in developing software for unix.
>> Once you get the hang of it, you will be able to figure
>> out what commands will get your specific task done, even
>> if you never heard of the task befor...

> Ohhh... sarcasm.. I love it!
> ...
> before someone shows em how to use emacs...

I though this was comp.os.os2.advocacy, NOT alt.editors.religion.

Scott Byer                                   NeXTMail: byer@adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: sjb5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (STACY JOHN BEHRENS)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS2 Good news and Bad news (OS2 & a little windows too)
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:09:02 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1572gsINNgs0@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, nan@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Nan Zou) write
s:
>genie@netcom.com (The Genie) writes:
>

>A couple questions I hope some knowledgable Mac folks can answer for me:
>someone told me that MacOS has memory protection, implemented by a program
>called Crash Barrier that costs $50, anyone know more about this?  If it
>truly does what it's supposed to do, why is it not more well-known?

Crash Barrier is a pretty good program.  It tries to trap errors and correct
them if it can.  Doesn't always work, but it is pretty good.  Well worth the
money in my opinion.  It isn't the first program do this though.  MacBugs
traps errors and can give some insite as to why they occured, albiet only for
the more techincal users.  It can't really recover well from them though.
Crash Barrier has been getting pretty good reviews all around (and deservedly
so) even from magazines whose speciality is not Macs.  There are recent
articles availlable about it and I could tell anyone who is interested where
to find them.

>
>Since I've only read the first two volumes of Inside Mac, I don't know how
>AppleEvents and Publish and Subscribe works.  Anyone care to explain it to
>me?  Or at least tell me which volume of Inside Mac it's covered so I can
>check it out myself?

Those are basically Apple's versions of DDE (and maybe OLE, I'm not sure)  How
they work specifically, I don't know because I'm not as familiar with System 7
as I'd like to be, and also don't use those features very often.


                                                Stacy John Behrens
                                                *===)-------------
From: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: what's wrong with ms?
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:55:34 EST
Reply-To: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

In article <1992Jul20.052537.14909@unislc.uucp>, Thayne Forbes writes:

DC>Sorry, but I'll stick with using products from TALENTED programmers,
DC>such as those at WordPerfect, Borland, and Lotus.

TF>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
TF>Pardon me whilst I pick myself up off the floor.

Well, you were more elequant than I would have been.

TF>First of all, just because Bill is a dick, does not make MS software bad.

It's amazing how few people have a grasp of this.

---
  SLMR 2.1a  Don't confuse me with facts.  Religion's easier.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: cebarton@napier.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton)
Subject: Re: Impressions of the July NT Release
Keywords: NT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:43:57 GMT

Bailey Brown writes:
>Gess Shankar writes:
>>...I, like some others on the net, subscribe to the theory
>>that one of important reasons for Win 3.1 success is '3d buttons'. In
>>this era, 'image is everything' and I think Microsoft, above all, knows this.
>
>OS/2 1.2 had 3D buttons.  The reason for Win 3.0's success was v86 mode,
>which OS/2 didn't have until 2.0.

    How about: "The reasons for Win 3.x's success are 3D buttons and a
marketing division that _isn't_ full of mindless idiots."

    IBM's marketing division could give Douglas Adam's "Sirius Cybernetics"
marketing division a run for the money, any day.
-- 
      Casey Barton (Mr.)   cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu   (519)725-6861
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: joiner@cs.umn.edu (Jay Joiner)
Subject: Re: Impressions of the July NT Release
Keywords: NT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:15:29 GMT

>In article <GTR-Vx=@engin.umich.edu> kcurtis@inthehat.engin.umich.edu (Keith Curtis) writes:
>
>I recently installed the July NT release:
>
>NT takes my 486-50 with 16 megs and turns it into
>an 8086.  It is not at all usable in a work environment, if you are

I'd say you've got bigger problems with your machine than NT.  I installed 
NT on a 386-33 with only 8 Meg, and it runs about the same as OS/2 2.0, except
for the size of the paging file.

Jay Joiner
From: mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Portable?
Date: 26 Jul 92 16:03:02 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

In article <1992Jul26.091340.8912@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>In article <k+kmwwl.xtifr@netcom.com> xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:
>>
>>If Phil has a rational explanation of why MS's porting efforts are less
>>likely to introduce bugs than IBM's, I admit I'd be interested to hear
>>it.  But all I've heard so far are comments that should apply equally to
>>OS/2 or NT.
>
>MS is not porting NT from anything.  It was designed portable from the
>beginning.

Other than the portions of OS/2 2.0 written in assembly language,
what makes OS/2 less portable?  It allows 32-bit processing,
32-bit API, flat memory model, paging, long file names, etc.

I could understand OS/2 1.x not being portable, due to 16-bit
processing, 16-bit API, segmented memory model, etc. buy not
OS/2 2.0.

>>-- 
>>Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
>>xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!
>
>petesk@microsoft.com
>My Opinions....


-- 
========= Mike Levis   mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu =========  .--.
ftp syrinx.umd.edu (128.8.2.114) for Rush lyrics and info. (OS/2)
::::: Get the Rush FAQL in directory /rush/special. ::::::  ~--~
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: What's wrong with Windows (Re: MS grasping at straws?...)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:47:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.153413.820@debet.nhh.no> si0_tb90020@debet.nhh.no writes:

>vi is a dream... Everything in vi is intuitive if you are familiar with
>other products (like grep, awk, sed, lexx, yacc, c) used in developing
>software for unix. Once you get the hang of it, you will be able to
>figure out what commands will get your specific task done, even if you
>never heard of the task befor...

Ohhh... sarcasm.. I love it!


If only they'd put a status line on the silly thing, then 
we won't have all those garbled first Usenet posts from new
users.. you know, the ones that end with:

q
:q
Bye
DAMMIT!xc^D

before someone shows em how to use emacs...


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: drxmann@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Dustin R. Christmann)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why we shouldn't attack MS Employees (and other thoughts)
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:33:05 GMT
Reply-To: drxmann@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Dustin R. Christmann)

In article <1992Jul27.181040.8305@microsoft.com>, philipla@microsoft.com
(Phil Lafornara) writes:
|>      I fail to see the relevance of this statement.  Very few, if any,
|>OS/2 supporters on this group work at IBM - I'd go so far as to say
|>that 99% of the posters here haven't seen the OS/2 2.0 source code.
|>Does this make everything that everyone is posting irrelevant?

And even when I worked at IBM, I didn't work in a group that was remotely rela-
ted to OS/2 development.  And I'll bet you that that percentage is a LOT clo-
ser to 100%... #:^)

Thanx,			|   Team OS/2	| Internet: drxmann@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Dustin R. Christmann	| (I was there) | Bitnet: DRXMANN@UTXVM
  Editor-in-chief of the ARAPOUT: All the news that is fit to print...NOT!
	Alpha Rho Chapter - Alpha Phi Omega - The University of Texas
"My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was 60.  She's 93 to-
day -- and we don't know where the hell she is."	-- Ellen DeGeneres
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell)
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:55:43 GMT

xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:

>In <1992Jul29.065821.24656@seas.gwu.edu> lai@seas.gwu.edu (William Y. Lai) writes:

>>Let's be honest here, if Microsoft's apps group does not want to lend a hand
>>to the success of OS/2, just come out and say so.  I, like most users, can
>>understand MS for not developing for a competing platform.

>I would understand it a heck of a lot better if MS implemented this
>policy consistently.  But they develop for the Mac, despite the fact
>that the presence of Excel (or whatever) for the Mac may mean less sales
>of Intel machines that might run NT.

I'm still trying to figure out WHY Microsoft is getting into the
operating system business.  They've proven time and again that they know
very little about anything other than application software.  Like we're
supposed to be worried that all of a sudden Microsoft will suddenly do
an about-face and produce a decent operating system???  Gimme a break.
Do they think they're catering to the same computer-illiterate people
that think DOS is just ducky?

Hey, if they want to blow millions on something they've never been able
to get right in the past, they've got my support. (But not my money)

 
-- 
Dan Cogswell

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: bdubbs@cs.tamu.edu (Bruce Dubbs)
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Organization: Computer Science Department, Texas A&M University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:41:51 GMT

In article <nv@byu.edu> earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>>     	Windows playform to service the OS/2-PM platform.  That's
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Am I the only one who caught this sub-conscious slip???  The Windows 'playform'
>is acurate.  That is all I ever see anyone using it for: entertainment.
>
Oh come on.  The 'y' is right next to the 't' on the keyboard.  Quit
wasting time with stuff that has no bearing on the subject.  Some
of us would actually like this forum to address real issues -
advantages/disadvantages of OS/2 and comparisons with other items
existing and in development are reasonable.  

By the way, will EVERYONE please set their news posting editors to
limit line length to 70 characters or so.  This is for two reasons:

1) It is hard to read very long lines and quickly comprehend the
thought presented, and

2) Some character mode newsreaders limit the line length to 80
characters and the wrap makes reading even harder.



--
Bruce Dubbs                   |  Oxymorons of note:
bdubbs@neuron.tamu.edu        |  Honest Politician, Political Science,
bdubbs@sadis01.sa.aflc.af.mil |  Scrupulous Lawyer
From: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: why can't ibm...
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:55:34 EST
Reply-To: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

In message <_v-m30#.garyd@netcom.com>, Gary Dietz writes:

GD>As an ex-IBMer, I can tell you that there are (or were) MANY creative
GD>people around that knew how to express information visually.
GD>They just get stifled til they quit.

GD>Let me give give you my simulated creative person / management discussion:

[standard bright engineer gets stomped by intractable management tale]

GD>And, if the creative person is married, has a house, and family, they make
GD>the economic decision to stay with IBM.

GD>If he/she is young, single, and idealistic, they say screw this and quit.
GD>They join a company that pays more, lets them be creative, and lets them
GD>help drive the product.

Boy, did you get this one right. Of course, if IBM stopped acting this way,
it would destroy the fine tradition of driving out all the aggressive,
talented people out, forcing them to form new competitive PC companies.

The more things change...
---
  SLMR 2.1a  Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were catholic.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: luke@cowan.edu.au (L.RAYNER)
Subject: Re: NT hoax or about Microsoft ethics (was Re: MS grasping at straws?...
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:47:03 GMT

Look, I like using OS/2.  Im using it now, formatting a disk and playing a game (typical serious student type stuff).

It is all very well for people to go on and on about how well nt will perform, 
but it is not out, is not expected for another 6 months, so why not shut up till then?

also, I would like to say that Microsoft has embarked on a serious disinformation in relation to windows 3.0/3.1.  In front of me now is a set of disks labelled:
	Microsoft Windows operating system
			  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I had no idea that WINDOWS was an operating system.  Operating environment, sure, but not an operating system.  In fact, it is not an operating system by Microsofts own definition of an operating system, but if another DOS comes out, they'll
change it (the definition) to match what windows does.

Somebody PROVE to me conclusively that Windows is an operating system - that it
contains files essential for the computer to work.

(this is a VERY loose definition).

By the way, I use OS/2 for more than formatting disks and playing games.
  

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Portable?
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:18:32 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul11.050428.26185@midway.uchicago.edu>, sip1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Timothy F. Sipples) writes:
[...]
> Incidently, do yourself a favor with NT: don't bother incorporating
> FAT into the MIPS and Alpha incarnations.  What's the point?
> (Actually, I'm sure someone will come up with an interesting idea as
> to why FAT should be supported on NT/Alpha, NT/MIPS.  Thoughts?)

Simple.  A common floppy format across differen workstations would be
a great idea.  Suns can read DOS-formatted disks right now.  Macs can.
Amigas can.  etc.  Heck, even Yamaha synthesizers can read
DOS-formatted disks!

Although I don't think the DOS-FAT format is the best format for
interchange, it's quickly becoming a de-facto standard in the computer
world.  Why not run with it and make it a real standard.

Personally, I think it's a waste of networking to ftp a program into
the workstation on the other side of the room when I can just slip a
floppy into it.  By that same token, I'd like to be able to ftp from
an InterNet site (like ftp-os2) into a workstation, and then just copy
it to a floppy and bring it home.  Right now, I have to zmodem-
download it from the workstation into a PC to do this.

I can get this effect with some Suns, but it'd be nice if all
workstations worked this way.

After this, all we need is a way for PC's to read Unix-standard tapes
and make that a standard on this end of the processor spectrum.




-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: portable?
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:55:34 EST
Reply-To: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

In article  <1992Jul15.223617.21359@microsoft.com>, Phil Lafornara writes:

PL>     To restate my point:  If IBM programmers are rewriting assembly
PL>code into C, they are introducing more bugs.  This is why portability
PL>is not something you do as an afterthought.

Boy, you got that right. However, from what I've seen, exactly the opposite
is happening. Our IBM rep says that they are currently rewriting a lot of
the C code to optimized assembler to nail some of the performance complaints.
---
  SLMR 2.1a  Render unto Caesar if line 54 is larger than line 62.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.advocacy:3177 comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1532 comp.sys.acorn:8011
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn,comp.sys.mac.mis
Subject: Re: New MultiTOS PC (Atari Falcon)
From: Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:14:09 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.

In article <2+y3uIj017n@khantazi.welly.gen.nz> banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
[...  lot of very good points made by Philip omitted ...]
>   Now can you two take it to email and stop crossposting to the entirety of
>Usenet?
>
>    Philip

I've had no response to email, from offending parties.  However, I've
had some positive email correspondence with someone else on this issue.

Since you and Julian have covered the issues so well, hopefully this
will be the end of the matter.


Gavin
-- 
Tomorrow's Society                              | flower_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
    Depends on                                   ----------------------------
Today's Children  - help us raise them properly! 
*******  These comments have no known correlation with dept. policy!  *******
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.advocacy:3424 comp.os.os2.programmer:3921