HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vleppert@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Valerie Leppert)
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:36:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.152950.11282@ncar.ucar.edu> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
>I would rather see a single (marked), well used trail, with pristine wilds
>to each side, than dozens of use-trails and paths criss-crossing a delicate
>environment.  Your mileage may vary.
>
>-- 
>/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
>  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
>      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.


On my last trip I ran into a guy using a guide to the backcountry that
avoided established trails.  It supposedly was put out by the Sierra Club.
I found it hard to believe that they would put out such a guide.  Does
anyone know anything about this? It seems unethical to me.

What if everyone declined to use trails?  What impact would this have on
alpine meadows, for example?  Is it okay just for some people and not for
others?  Can you really assume that you can travel in such a way as to have
no impact at all?

Keeping to established trails seems to follow the same logic as using
existing firerings only. It seems sound.  When trails are overused the park
service discourages use or reroutes them for a time.

Of course the reality of the situation is that most people will probably
continue to use established trails while some will go off the beaten path.
Those few who do should thank the rest of us because without our
cooperation (staying ON the trails) you wouldn't experience the pristine
wilderness you're seeking.

Valerie
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2609 rec.backcountry:5643
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bad Maps
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:12:19 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Jul24.215016.2446@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>The things you must realize when you use USGS topographic maps:
...
>4) Check all ancillary notes of scale and resolution.

Right.  The error that always gets me, looking at two adjacent
7.5 minute maps, is oft-times the contour interval is 40 ft on one
and 80 feet on the other.  "Let's go over there, where the terrain
is half as steep."

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: bungee
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:31:17 GMT

Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???

>Maybe bungee was invented by an incompetent climber....     :-)

i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
(mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?

greg
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Animal Friendly Climbing Boots
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 06:32:44 GMT

Reminds me of a song.....

	"And maybe we'll do in a squirrel or two
	"While we're poisoning pigeons in the park.
		--Tom Lehrer

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timtow@timtow.b1.ingr.com (Tim Tow)
Subject: Re: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Reply-To: timtow@timtow.b1.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corp, Huntsville, Alabama
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:11:26 GMT

In article <Bs5356.487@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, bmaraldo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Commander Brett Maraldo) writes:
|> 
|> 	I have an awful lot of people ask me if and when I am going to go
|> bungee jumping, in light of the fact that I rock climb.  I found this to
|> be an unusual question and can't see why people relate the two.  Other

Actually, I thought my first big lead fall ( 20' a couple of months ago, ok
so it wasn't a 50 meter whipper but I feel comfortable starting small ) was
kind of like a mini non-inverted bungee...  

Maybe bungee was invented by an incompetent climber....     :-)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Tim Tow                              |                                      
 Intergraph Corporation               | "Injustice anywhere is a             
 Huntsville, AL                       |      threat to justice everywhere"    
 Mailpath:..timtow@timtow.b1.ingr.com |                                      
 Voice:                  205-730-2117 |         - Dr Martin Luther King, Jr
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Re: gear question (Big Dudes and Camalots)
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
	<12653@pignut.rl.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:11:52 GMT


(I also replied via email but thought this might be of general interest)

re: General question about "Big Dudes" and "Camalots"



Camalots are Black Diamond Equipment's (used to be Chouinard) SLCD. 

They are similar to an HB Quadcam, in that they have 4 cams with two
flexible cable stems, and a single finger trigger between the stem.

I hate flexible friends because I have problems with them rotating
when trying to place etc:  Seems that the trigger is kinda flimsy and
the whole thing seems to collapse when you're trying to get them in
using one hand.  (does this happen to you?)

My favorite camming devices are the HB (wales) Quadcams.  I like the
trigger setup even better than the camalots.

Camalots seem to have a bit wider expansion range however, I love my
#2 and will probably buy another one in the future.  The other nice
thing about the Camalots is that they can be placed as a "chockstone"
if needed?  I have never done this in any actual climbing situation, 
but Black Diamond touts that as a feature.  The number 4 camalot is a
pretty good size for large cracks, and fits in a suprising amount of
places.  Invariably though, when I haul it up a climb I sometimes dont
need it, but when I leave it at home, or on the ground... (you know
the story!)



Heres the dope from the montain tools catalog (1991 so the prices (US
dollars) have probably increased)


CAMALOT SPECS

No.	Size Range	Weight	Width	Color	Price
	  inches	grams	inches
******************************************************
.5	.77-1.37	89	2.0	magenta	$58.50
.75	.95-1.60	105	2.0	green	$58.50
1	1.10-2.0	125	2.37	red	$47.50
2	1.45-2.65	165	2.37	gold	$48.50
3	2.00-3.65	241	2.75	blue	$53.50
4	2.75-5.00	369	3.00	black	$62.50


YATES BIG DUDE SPECS
******************************************************
No.	Range		Strength	Weight	Price
6	4.4-6.0		3500 lbs	450 gm	$105
7	5.4-7.0		3500 lbs	509 gm	$110


Mail Order Houses..... (I have used Mountain High several times....)
call the number below for a free catalog.  I think Mountain Tools
charges for their catalog, so I havent ordered from them... (I usually
pick up last years when it's free.  I wont PAY for a catalog!)

Mountain High Ltd.
(619) 375-2612
123 Diamond Peak Ave.
Ridgecrest, CA 93555
1-800-255-3182 (Toll free ORDERS ONLY)


Mountain Tools
(408) 625-6222
PO Box 222295
Carmel, CA 93922



good luck...!


--
tim schneider                       honeywell air transport systems division
ph: 602.436.3078 fax: 602.436.2252   po box 21111 ms k26e2 phoenix, az 85036
email: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  or  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: cairns
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:42:02 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

I have been amazed that so many people are offended by cairns. I have never
thought twice about them before this discussion, except to note that they
sometimes look cool on a foggy day. It's just a pile of rocks! To all you people
who feel compelled to knock them over (and, for that matter, to rebuild them):
I can't help but think you have chosen a particularly petty way to ruin a good 
outdoors experience for yourselves - it must be hard work, griping and grumbling
along the trail, constantly on the lookout for rockpiles to destroy. Personally,
I much prefer to look at the scenery. I think from now on, whenever I see a cairn,
I am going to have a good laugh, thinking about all the horrible things others see
in what to me has always been, and always will be, scarcely worth a second thought.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Don Whillans books?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:21:13 GMT

I just saw a copy (paperback in Bill's library).


Why not use a public library?


You do know how to use a public library?


I'm not talking about walking in and checking out.  I mean things like
interlibrary loan (unless of course you insist on owning a copy).

Do you think I brought all those climbing books I've read?
Sure glad I didn't have to pay for most of them.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: bmaraldo@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Commander Brett Maraldo)
Subject: Rock Climbing... bungee jumping???
Organization: Unit 36 Research
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:22:17 GMT


	I have an awful lot of people ask me if and when I am going to go
bungee jumping, in light of the fact that I rock climb.  I found this to
be an unusual question and can't see why people relate the two.  Other
climbers I know are also pestered with this question.  As far as I can
tell, the object of climbing is to climb up and *not* fall, where-as
falling is the goal in bungee jumping.  Also, I see bunjee jumping as more
of a thrill sport and climbing more of an endurance/technical sport.  How
many knots do you need to know when bungee jumping?  Is falling really
that hard? :-)  

Brett Maraldo


-- 
               --------     Unit 36 Research     ---------
	                "Alien Technology Today"
  	 	      bmaraldo@watserv1.UWaterloo.ca
  	           {uunet!clyde!utai}!watserv1!bmaraldo
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 01:20:25 GMT

In article <eric.712000270@milton> eric@milton.u.washington.edu
(Eric Hirst) writes:
>A couple other sport climbing terms:
>
>Low-angle - Anything less than 95 degrees.
>
>Run-out - The bolts are more than 5 feet apart.
>
>Alpine route - Anything out of earshot of the car radio.
>
>Committing - Used to describe a climb with the rap anchor more than 80 feet
>off the ground, or one which does not have quickdraws already in place.
>
>But seriously, what does "aggro" mean?  Or am I a cooler person for not
>knowing?

If I add these to cron, I think I might as well add all of Patey's terminology
from One Man's Mountain like:
"Vertical: steep.
Overlanging: Merely vertical.
Bong: One hit
Bong Bong: Two hits
Solo:
Roped party: ...

I doubt he would mind.

I'll get to this on Sunday when I get back from climbing.
Sorry, don't know the name of the route, we haven't named it yet.....

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: parilis@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Gary Parilis)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: bungee
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:47:24 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.163117.27250@colorado.edu> ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:

> i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
> hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
> anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
> long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
> the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
> (mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?

I don't know aboiut the origin of the word "bungee", but I do remember
seeing films of people doing that when I was a kid.  

I don't even remember what continent they were on, but I remember
seeing it and thinking they were crazy!

So your source might not be perfectly accurate (I don't think it was
in N. America... I think it was in the jungle somewhere), but your leg
wasn't being pulled... Or at least not as hard as the jumpers'.

 Gary
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: jc@optimla.aimla.com (John VanHoozer)
Subject: Re: climb sport lingo
Reply-To: jc@optimla.aimla.com (John VanHoozer)
Organization: OptImage Interactive Services Co., L.P.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 14:45:48 GMT

In article <106480230@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, j_elison@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jeff Elison) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> I saved this from the last time this question was asked.  Most of these
|> terms deal with climbing style.

              <other definitions deleted>
 
|> Redpoint - Climb from bottom to top without falls or hangs.  Redpoint implies
|>        that you have tried it before and fell or had to hang.  Redpoint used
|>        to imply that you placed any natural gear/quickdraws as you climbed.
|>        This is usually ignored these days.
|>        Redpoint has become the "ideal" ascent for people who like to climb
|>        above their flash ability.  They don't feel like they have "done" a
|>        route until they have redpointed it.  Involves a little integrity. 

No flames:)

(I believe that it was at a lecture that John Bachar was giving in Ca.)

I've heard that "redpoint" started with the practice of placing a little 
dot at the the bottom of the route with red nail polish when you've 
completed the climb in the style defined above.  The climber would also
initial the dot.  Sort of a "Hey,  I may or may not have had the first
ascent but I did it (in what I consider) the right way" statement.

Is this more or less the case?

___________________________________________________________________________
John C. VanHoozer				jc@optimage.com
OptImage Interactive Services Company, L.P.	jc@aimla.com
11040 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite #300		uunet!{optimage,aimla}!jc
Los Angeles, Ca. 90025				(310) 445-5721
___________________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer:
   Opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect
   those of any other sane and sentient being or organization.
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill)
Subject: cairns
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:43:53 GMT

 Greg Jahn writes (i guess in response to some of my earlier comments):

>To respond to some of the other comments, I actually ENJOY the cairns,
>it provides entertainment for me when I knock them over ... 
 
I still prefer to look at the scenery. We do all live in different worlds,
I guess. 

In response to a recent comment by Peter (?), I have also been a little
surprised (but not too much) by the threats of violence over this. 

greg

-- 
Overheard conversation between 6 year old girl | Favorite question while flailing
and winnebago warrior father at Devil's Tower: | on 5.11: "Is it thin up there"?
        				       |
"Daddy, I want to climb it!"                   | ("No, there's jugs right
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Route Info (Tahquitz/Suicide)
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Distribution: rec
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:14:14 GMT


Posted for a friend of mine

Dale is interested in any comments (good/bad/otherwise) on the
follwoing routes at Tahquitz and Suicide.  If you have any info, or
have done some of these routes, any comments would be appreciated.

Tahquitz

Sahara Terror 5.7
Whodunit      5.9-
The Swallow   5.8
The Step      5.9
The Jam Crack 5.7
Fred          5.10d
Traitor Horn  5.8

Suicide

Season's End  5.11b


thanks in advance,
tims


--
tim schneider                       honeywell air transport systems division
ph: 602.436.3078 fax: 602.436.2252   po box 21111 ms k26e2 phoenix, az 85036
email: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  or  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc

Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: bungee
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:23:09 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Jul29.163117.27250@colorado.edu> ghill@dot.cs.colorado.edu (Gregory Hill) writes:

>i heard bungee jumping actually has an interesting history of several
>hundred (thousand?) years (although perhaps someone was pulling my leg).
>anyway, what i heard is that in the pacific northwest, it has been a 
>long-standing native american adolescent initiation rite to tie vines around
>the ankles, and jump from trees ... does anyone else hve any similar
>(mis)information? how about the origin of the word "bungee"?

Time for a trip to library to look at the old National Geographics.

I have heard and seen the same except that it was not developed by native
americans, (pacific northwest as mentioned above).  But by aborigines
in the pacific southeast and in africa.  They, however, did not have any
stretch in the vines and typically landed only inches above the ground
junpimg head first.

I have also seen something similar were two warring tribes would take
their prisoneers and tie each leg to the top of a tree that had been
bent down to the ground (ie one leg on one tree and the other leg on
another tree).  They would release both trees which would hurdle the
person into the air and pull one or both legs off ;-).

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Pucky lads, a wee bit over their heads"

	Doug Scott after encountering two climbers
	on Denali suffering from exposure.
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Wednesday, 29 Jul 1992 10:24:32 MST
From: <IADGLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Cairns, Flags, and Fixed Wands
 <1992Jul27.232724.4873@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> <4793@calmasd.Prime.COM>

All the debate about cairns reminds me of when I hiked the Appalachian Trail
through the Presidentials in N.H. in 82. My hiking partner at the time never
said very much, but when he talked he made it worthwhile. As we hopped from
rock to rock across the mountains (I remember not walking at all from Mt.
Eisenhower to beyond Madison, just rock hopping the whole way), we passed one
of those eight-foot high cairns, when Tony deadpanned in his Georgia drawl:

"I wonder where they got all the rocks to build these here markers."

He kept walking while I struggled to keep from falling off the ridgeline
from laughing.

gc
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
From: andrzej.taramina@rose.com (andrzej taramina)
Subject: Public perceptions
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 05:27:05 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 07-31-92 00:19

R(>  One of my favorites was after coming off of Mt. Ranier after days of
R(>climbing. We did a 180 degree traverse and came done on the Paradise
R(>station side. The most common question was "Can we make it to the top
R(>today ?" This was usually asked by tourist wearing shorts. They didn't
R(>seem to notice the layers of warm clothing, the sun burn, the ice
R(>tools, nor the large packs.

I would be sorely tempted to answer their question with a "Yes!"...
and then just sit back and watch evolution work it's miracles.
Now what was it that Heinlein said about stupidity being the only
crime with a death sentence and no appeal?   <wide grin>

From the 'broidery 'droid........Andrzej
---
   DeLuxe  1.12 #168   .357 Magnum:  Leaded Fuel Only!
   RoseMail 1.70: RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Xref: sparky rec.climbing:2604 rec.backcountry:5629
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing,rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bad Maps (was Re: Trip Report: Yosemite's )
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:20:07 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Jul22.180215.26499@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> cantor@spot.Colorado.EDU (Evan Cantor) writes:
> So, the USGS map proved very useful; the terrain had remained the same,
> only the trails had changed!

I was up in Idaho last weekend where the VEGETATION did not concur with
the map.  We arrived at our destination, marked in lush green on the
map, to discover a charred wasteland of mud, black stubby poles, and soot.
Once we overcame our initial aversion to getting soot all over everthing,
it actually made a novel and interesting place to camp.  As per the great
rec.backcountry "are campfires evil" debate, in this setting one
could build a campfire, even a fire ring, with no guilt whatsoever.
The logs were all charred and the rocks all blackened.  The nagging campfire
argument here seemed as trivial and fleeting as the age of humanity in the
face of geologic time.  (I'm not advocating a sweeping pro-camp-fire stance,
by the way.)  In place of the usual back and forth chirping of birds in the
morning, we awakened to the conversations of creaking and squawking logs,
on the verge of collapse.  After several excursions from camp, those
logs became like old friends, still there, each betraying its individual
personality with its own unique sound.

Surprisingly to me, the cutthroat trout in the lakes still went about their
business in a world of oblivious submersion, apparently unaware of the recent
great calamity outside, though some appeared to be suffering malnutrition.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: jjk@astro.umd.edu (Jim Klavetter)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: sole unstuck from bottom of climbing shoe
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:19:33 GMT
Organization: U. of Maryland @ College Park, Astronomy

Hypothetically--just hypothetically, mind you--IF you were silly
enough to leave your climbing shoes in your trunk in the summer and
the sole came undone from the bottom of the shoe, what are your
options?  Is it glueable (if so, what glue)?  Should the shoe be able
to take the abuse and should we go back to the place of sale and
demand another pair (send it back to the manufacturer)?

Hypothetically.

I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to actually do this, so
email is probably best but post if you think someone might actually be
helped by the info.  Thanks.

jjk@astro.umd.edu also for Athabasca and Reudi
Jim Klavetter
Astronomy
UMD
College Park, MD  20742