HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kubey@sgi.com (Ken Kubey)
Subject: Re: Bonds "choke"?
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:55:00 GMT

In article <Oct.6.08.52.39.1992.20019@pilot.njin.net> gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky) writes:
>someone said :if bonds hit 245, he'd ride the bench.

That someone was me.

>excuse me????
>
>he had 34 homers, 127 walks, 36 doubles, 39 steals, and you'd have
> him ride the bench???

At .245, it would be more like 26 homers, 92 walks, 30 steals.
Okay, you're right, he can stay in the lineup.

What I meant to say, was that if Bonds had Gene Tenace's career stats,
he would probably play a role more like McClendon or Espy.

A catcher who hits .245 with some power is valuable player.
An outfielder who hits .245 with some power can stay in the majors
but might not start.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:       Ken Kubey  or  QB   |  Reading, editing or printing of this text
Address:    kubey@sgi.com       |  without the express written consent of
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: Re: Randy Johnson
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:21:12 GMT

In article <1a7fr4INN5ik@bigboote.WPI.EDU>, mmartin@wpi.WPI.EDU (Matthew Wayne Martin) writes:
|> 	While watching the Red Sox game yesterday, Sean McDonough mentioned,
|> as they were going off the air, that Randy Johnson had 18 K's through 7
|> innings.  How many did he end up with?  Did he break Clemens' record?

Johnson ended up with 18 in 8 IP. I think that it's a crime that he didn't get
to finish the game and get a shot at the record. I heard later on ESPN that 
he had thrown something like 160 pitches to that point.

Do any of you Seattlites know the story? Did Plummer just decide to pull him,
or did Johnson ask to come out, or what? Considering that Nelson came in to
start the 9th, and proceded to blow the game, what harm could it have done
to give Johnson a chance? Considering where the Mariners are finishing this
year, it seems like a possible record would mean more to the Mariners than
one more potential last-place win.

Gammons made an interesting comment on BBTN last (Sunday) evening. He said that
Gene Clines (Mariner batting coach?) arranged for Randy to spend a couple of
hours with Nolan Ryan back in August sometime. Since that point RJ has had
something like 115 strikeouts in 79 IP, with an ERA around 2. Has the tall-one
finally found himself?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Baerga
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:24:01 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <Ahn-051092154301@branford-college-node.net.yale.edu> Ahn@pop.cis.yale.edu (Eugene R. Ahn) writes:
>Well, the Baerga debate was fun, because he's not the first player most
>people would consider. But for the record, anyone who thinks Baerga is the
>MVP is wrong. What are you? Maad!? He had a phenomenal year, and the debate
>served him well: there's the end of the story.

>By the way, who was he traded for? I know he's not an all-time Indian. I
>bet it was some stinky team in the NL. Was it the Braves? 

Baerga was a throw in on the Joe Carter for Sandy Alomar and Chris James
trade with San Diego.  One of Trader Jack's finest...




-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Lead off walks....
Organization: NSSL
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:24:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.233148.1297@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> z_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>In article <GRABINER.92Sep30183837@germain.harvard.edu>, grabiner@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep30.153621.1287@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, z writes:
>> 
>>> 	Okay, time for bad-but-possible-explaination-time:
>> 
>>> 	The avergae pitcher gives up a hit an inning. If a pitcher gives
>>> up a single to lead off the inning, there is a good chance there won't
>>> be another hit that inning. OTOH, if the pitcher leads off yeilding a
>>> walk, the batting team still has that hit they are likely to pick up
>>> later in the inning.
>> 
>> This is the gambler's fallacy.  The chance that a coin will land heads
>> does not depend on the previous flip.  Likewise, the chance that a team
>> will get a hit in the current inning does not depend on what happened in
>> the earlier part of the inning.
>
>	No, it is not gambler's fallacy; the chance of a team getting two hits
>in an inning is less than the chance of them getting one hit in an inning.

That's not the real question.  You're saying that the probability of a team
getting a hit in an inning is greater than the probability of a team getting
a hit in an inning which begins with a man on first (who happened to get 
there with a hit).  Since Major League batting averages go up with men on 
base, that seems unlikely.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory/CIMMS (Norman, OK)
Cal Ripken   April-August   .248 BA  .354 SLG  .328 OBA
Cal Ripken (1 Sep.-30 Sep.) .245 BA  .336 SLG  .278 OBA
From: mcwillia@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Charlie)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Playoffs
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:14:43 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

>In article <1992Sep22.160159.2733@mtroyal.ab.ca>, caldwell8102@mtroyal.ab.ca writes:
>Three of the four pennant races are all but over. Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and
>Oakland have all but won theirs. Looks like Toronto will probably hang onto
>the AL East although it's far from over. So, that creates the likely playoffs
>of Toronto vs Oakland and Pittsburgh vs Atlanta (again).
>
>Who does everybody think will win those series's, and who will win the
>World Series?
>
>                                                               Alan
>
Blue Jays and Pirates......Pirates in 7...

-- 
Charlie McWilliams
"Go Reds!"
mcwillia@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
From: km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: If you thought last year was bad
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:35:03 GMT
Reply-To: km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <2295@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu> hobbs@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Gerald R Hobbs) writes:

>The Bucs have decided that some 
>of last year's reserved seats should now be GA's 
>(500 level in the outfield). Tickets have been on sale
>for some time now and I got GA tickets in the 500 level
>of centerfield (for game 2 of the series) yesterday. 

Two points:

1) The way the seats were classified last year was ridiculous. As a
season ticket holder of two seats, I bought playoff/WS tickets for
both my own seats (on the field) and the additional two the Pirates
allowed. The additional tickets were on the fifth level (yellow seats)!
I could not believe that these were sold FOR THE SAME PRICE as my
tickets on the field. Luckily, I was able to sell these to other
people, but I learned my lesson. This year, I bought my seats on
the field, period. 

2) We have had a newspaper strike here and have been without both
local papers for over four months. If anybody doubts the impact this
has on baseball, believe me it has impact. One of the great things
about baseball is not only going to or listening to games, but
reading about the team every day. As someone mentioned recently in
a New York Times story on the strike here, baseball is essentially
a soap-opera, and without the newspaper, you miss the plot. The
Pirates are really afraid that attendance at the playoffs will be
worse than last year.

There really is a good core of baseball fans here, but no one outside
of Pittsburgh knows it. I was at the game yesterday (the "clincher")
and you couldn't ask for a better crowd. It was only 35,000 though,
so I'm sure the New York announcers reamed us.

 -Ken Mitchum
 km@cs.pitt.edu
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Can of corn?
Date: 2 Oct 92 17:08:51 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Distribution: na

In article <olt.718040143@elwood.isgs.uiuc.edu>  
olt@elwood.isgs.uiuc.edu (Scott Olt) writes:
> Does anyone know the origin of the phrase 'can of corn',
> used to describe an easily-caught fly ball?
> 

I don't know if he originated it, but ex-Pirate broadcaster
Bob Prince certainly made it famous.  In one game, he called
a fly ball by an opponent a can of corn. The fielder (it may
have been Matty Alou, but this was a LONG time ago so my
memory is a bit shaky here) dropped it.  Folks from all around 
begain mailing cans of corn to Prince.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Re: AL ROY - Cal Eldred?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  1 Oct 1992 16:07 EST  

In article <joeb.717873107@cserver>, joeb@cserver.plexus.com 
     (Joe Brotz) writes...

>The debate the last few weeks over the AL Rookie of the Year has 
>centered on Pat Listach and Kenny Lofton, who are of course deserving
>candidates. 
>How about Cal Eldred? Currently he's 11-1, ~1.5 ERA, and
>has a 10 game winning streak. Without a doubt, the basic argument 
>against Eldred is that he's put up his numbers for only half a year
>(he was called up right after the All-Star break). I don't think anyone
>can argue that, in the time that Eldred has been in Milwaukee, his 
>level of play is vastly superior to Listach and Lofton (the 1.5 ERA
>is incredible). 

It sure is.  Now let me tell you why he won't win the ROY.  There are
a lot of guys out there that win a ton of games the first time through
the league, or in the first half of the season, that fade in the second
half, or that get injured.  (I'm talking about pitchers, here.)  The
folks who do the voting will remember this, and Eldred will be outscored
by both Lofton and Listach, although Eldred has been very good.  As for
whether his level of play is "vastly superior" to Listach and Lofton, I
will admit he has been better than either of them - over that portion of
the season in which he has pitched.  I also would want a few more starts
out of him.

Examples: start with Dave Fleming, who had to be considered a candidate
for the ROY in his own right going into the All-Star break, but who has
been mortal in the second half.  Even Jack Armstrong (!) went 11-3 in
half a season.  You can be certain that a number of people, when looking
at Eldred, will remember Armstrong.  (Before the statheads start producing
the numbers that indicate they should not do this, let me point out that
I am not saying anything about what the sportswriters *should* do, only 
what they *will* do.)

>If you could extrapolate his numbers to an entire year,
>he'd have the AL Cy Young Award wrapped up too (I know you can't 
>extrapolate those numbers with any certainty, but it's fun!!) . 

By the same token, you could make a case for Juan Guzman winning the Cy.
But he won't, and such an example is something these guys remember.  They
want to see performance over the entire season, and they want this even 
more so in the case of pitchers, who can stretch a hot streak over half
a season.

RG

"I'm the luckiest guy in Callahooga County."  -  Dennis Cook
From: traven+@pitt.edu (Neal Traven)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 100 run/rbi seasons on a team
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:15:22 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Oct5.224309.3544@infonode.ingr.com> kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com writes:
>
>What ML team had the most players with 100+ runs and 100+ RBIs
>for a season?
>
>(I ask this not because I think these are good measures of ability, but
>because "my" PTP card game team looks like it will have 3 players with (100+
>runs and 100+ RBIs), with another player having (100+ runs) and still
>another with (100+ RBIs), over a 162 game season.  I was wondering if
>this would be any sort of record if it occurred in "real life".)
>(100+ is 100 or more.)


I happen to have looked into this particular question a bit recently.  Without
an exhaustive search, I found two teams which had FOUR players who scored 100+
and knocked in 100+ in the same season.  I don't have the info right at hand,
but I believe they were the 1934 Tigers (Gehringer, Greenberg, Goslin, Rogell?)
and a either a Yankee team of the 20s-30s or the Bosox around 1950.

Three such players on a team was not at all uncommon in the early 'lively ball'
period, though I don't think it's happened for 30-40 years.  Some clubs have 
come *that* close, though -- the mid-70s Bosox had guys miss in one category or
the other by one or two, and Harvey's Wallbangers had two 100/100 men plus two
others who went 100/90 or 90/100 or better.

As for having two 100/100 men, look no further back than 1990 -- Bonds and 
Bonilla.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal	traven+@pitt.edu	      You're only young once, but you can be
	traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu	       immature forever.   -- Larry Andersen
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: gregh@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (G. Hurtault)
Subject: Re: Alfredo Griffin
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:10:38 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.110506.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> chead@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> I cannot understand why so many people are dumping on Alfredo Griffin.
> Sure he had his bad moments when he first started filling in for Manny
> Lee but he sure has held his ground lately.  Defensively, I think he
> has adequately handled the shortstop position after getting used to 
> day to day playing. Offensively, he has been better than a lot of people 
> think lately.  Coming into last night's game he was BATTING .393 in the
> last ten games.  Pretty good for a number 9 hitter.
>
>
> Avid Blue Jays Fan!!

   It really doesn't matter too much anymore because I read in a Toronto
   paper that Manuel Lee will be starting tomorrow night's game!!  He says
   his leg is still a bit sore but he thinks he can play on it effectively.

   Alfredo Griffen did a very good job filling in for him!  It could have
   been Eddie Zosky instead! 


   An Average Blue Jays Fan...
-- 
      -----    |                   Greg Hurtault
     /     \   |            gregh@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
     | reg___  |                 
     \______/  |  Is that a wiggle or a struggle?" "Macho King" Randy Savage 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ehlerswm@hackney.ecn.purdue.edu (William Mark Ehlers)
Subject: Re: Torre!  Torre!  Torre!
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:41:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.224250.7263@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <56369@olivea.atc.olivetti.com> rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
>>Realistically the season comes down to one thing, not being able to beat
>>the Pirates head to head. they beat us 15 out of 18. If we played .500
>>against them, we would be right there in the race.
>
>Not to pick on Russ, but I hear this sort of thing regularly: "If only they
>had won more games against Team Y, who beat them 15 of 18" or "If only they
>had played better against their own division (or the other division)".  I
>don't really think this makes any sense.  I mean, teams are going to lose
>50-100 games a season; it'd be unusual if those losses were evenly
>distributed among all their opponents.   
>
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com

	I read someplace that each major league team can count on winning
	50 games and losing 50 games.  It is what they do with the other 62
	that seperates the winning teams and losing teams.  So breaking that
	down, a team that can go 42-20 has a great shot of being in contention.
	
					---Mark
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Grebeck, Guillen, Beltre, Knee Injuries...
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:13:18 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake jds23971@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Neff):

[Skipping over points one and two, which others have already responed to...]

>Third, you missed my point completely.  Everybody on a team has a role.

You hear this a lot, but I don't buy it.  What is Rickey Henderson's "role"?
Stealing bases?  If so, does that mean that his home runs don't have any 
value?  That he'd be just as good if he didn't hit them.  That he *shouldn't*
worry about them, and should be content to just steal bases?  Conversely, if
Henderson's role *isn't* "stealing bases", then why should he bother?

This bizarre notion of "role" is an afterthought; it's a rationalization of
a player's shortcomings.  I can't hear a mediot say "Joe's job is to _____"
without automatically translating that in my mind as "Joe stinks at everything
except _____".  No great player has ever had a "role"; only bad ones, one-
dimensional ones, and part-timers.  "Rance's role is to get the big pinch-hit
against right-handed pitching" is another way of saying "Rance can't hit
lefties, and isn't good enough in the field to justify playing him full-time."

What everybody on a team has is a duty to help the team win in every way
possible.  It's up to the manager to then sort out who has which abilities,
and best to group, place, and sequence these abilities in order to win games.
"George's job is to drive in runs" is a kind way of saying "George's massive
shortcomings as hitter hurt us the least when he gets lots of at bats with
men in scoring position, and doesn't have any good hitters behind him.  His
slugging average is high enough that he'll drive in quite a few even while
having a bad year.  Of course, the offense then stops with him."

Similarly, when somebody says "Jose Lind's job is to play great defense", 
they really mean "We knew when we put Lind in the lineup that he was going
to be putrid offensively, but we figured it was worth it anyway to get his
great defense.  We're willing to live with that tradeoff."  Whether the
Pirates *should*, in fact, be willing to live with that tradeoff is another
question, and open to debate.  Just by claiming that offense isn't Lind's 
"job" doesn't reduce by an iota the number of runs that he costs you on
offense.  Ditto for George Bell; just claiming that avoiding outs isn't
his job doesn't reduce the cost of those outs that he makes, any more than
claiming "being tall isn't my job" makes me a better volleyball player.



-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: PIRATES AGIAIN!!!
Date: 29 Sep 92 17:26:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Sep29.172634.12867
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853

In article <kelrH_S00WBOQ6ZH4o@andrew.cmu.edu> Eric Alva Dunmire <ed19+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>CLINCHED 3rd STRAIGHT !!!!
>
>ANY QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!

Yeah.  Are they going to ever beat the NL West?

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Lead off walks....
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:52:07 GMT

In article <lcifu4INNh9c@cronkite> andy@misha.Central.Sun.COM writes:
>Watching the Sox/Twins game last night,  Hawk & Wimpy (the Sox Commentators/homers)
>made a comment that a leadoff walk tends to score more often than say a leadoff
>hit. Probably not as often as a leadoff homerun... :-)
>
>I assume that their comment was statistically baseless,  except for the 
>inning where the leadoff walk happend to score in this game, however,
>does a stat hound out in net.land have any info on this ?  

I don't have exactly what they were talking about, though I assume they
*really* meant that a leadoff walk tends to score more often than a leadoff
*single*, not hit.  There's a very, very slight effect in the difference
between a leadoff walk and a leadoff single.

Effect of first event in inning, both leagues, 1984-1991


Leadoff		Prob of >= 1 run	Avg. number of runs
-------------------------------------------------------------
single		.428			.855
walk		.432			.865
error		.441			.867
out		.156			.255
other		.742		       1.215

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
From: valentin@midnight-blue.cis.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RC/27 for LFs
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:50:57 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Sep26.071515.5781@leland.Stanford.EDU>, claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> 
> 				RC/27	VALUE
> Barry Bonds, Pittsburgh	12.66	97.1
> Rickey Henderson, Oakland	8.08	41.8	; notice difference

Ouch!! I knew Bonds was having a very good season, but jeeeez. 
Does anyone else so dominate their position? 

Shawn

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u)
Subject: Re: Morris Season begins Wednesday
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:25:50 GMT

In article <BvLuws.E1F@cs.dal.ca> niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma) writes:
>  Now that the Jays have clinched they will turn their eyes to Jack Morris to 
>duplicate his heroics as he did in last year's playoffs. Although I believe his
>contribution was minimal to this year's Jays (although he did contribute) the
>five million dollars is now on the line......this is what Gillick and Beeston
>and the Jays brass signed him for.
>
Ah, here we go again. Are you trying to say that A pitcher who went 21-6 on
the year had a "minimal contribution"? Geez, how many wins do you need to
really help your team?
-- 
Ken Breadner	brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (the BREADbox)  ...
Wilfrid Laurier Day Care Centre--oops, University, Waterloo, Ontario
Opinions are probably mine, but if they aren't, well, they aren't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Bonds "choke"?
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:51:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: adobe.1992Oct2.155144.18940
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <92275.012838RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>however, it seems to me that a lot of people are going beyond this, and
>saying, "there is no such thing as a choke or a clutch player.  you're
>an idiot if you think there is."

Thank you for calling me an idiot.

>i just can't see how you can deny any of the following statements:
>
>   1) ballplayers are humans, not robots.

I don't deny this, but that is merely evidence that ballplayers have
variations in performace.

>   2) different humans react differently to pressure.  some react well,
>      some react poorly.

What exactly do we know about how pressure affects human performance?  Is
the effect of pressure on human performance distinguishable from the
natural random variations in performance due to (1) above?  And further,
even if it is for the general population, does that tell us anything about
how a group of humans who've been selected all along the way because they
performed better than everybody around them responds to pressure
situations?  

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com