From: mludwig@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Michael Scott Ludwig)
Subject: Re: Long Commutes (was Jumping the Good Ship California)
Newsgroups: ca.general
Reply-To: mludwig@ics.uci.edu (Michael Scott Ludwig)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 14 Sep 92 12:34:09 GMT
Distribution: ca

rcarter@gaudi.nas.nasa.gov (Russell L. Carter) writes:
=In article <2AA8A046.15569@ics.uci.edu> mludwig@ics.uci.edu (Michael Scott Ludwig) writes:
=>In general, mass transit is better where there are more people.  If people
=>move away, that means less people to ride the bus and rail lines, which
=>means a lower level of service....
=
=I disagree vehemently.  In general, the "utility" of mass transit is better
=when it is centrally coordinated into a single unified system.  The number
=of people involved is off in the higher order terms.  What we have here
=in the Bay Area, which isn't all that large geographically (basically
=it's a doughnut) is patchwork quilt of transit agencies whose performance
=ratings are not tied to the one metric they should be:  How to get from A
=to B (including traversals across transit system boundaries) as smoothly,
=and quickly (and inexpensively) as possible.

Okay, I think I see your point.  I see that population doesn't matter too
much in how good a system can be.  Just that I still don't see the (long
since deleted) point that Bay Area transit could become good if a lot of
people move out.

=>I think most of the mass transit systems in the Bay Area are good, but also
=>that most of them are not great - i.e. that they could use some improvement.
=
=More precisely, mass transit within particular systems is good.  But
=the connections are a pain in the ass, and render the system unusuable
=for those whose time==money, if they have to cross boundaries.  Really,
=that is one of the major reasons the penninsula corridor has so
=much traffic.

I pretty much have to agree.  I guess that few of these drivers have their
workplace close to a CalTrain station (or else it would be easy for them to
just drive down to the nearest CalTrain station and take one of the trains
directly to work).

=>Although I have recognized for a while that if a trip involves starting and
=>ending points within two different bus agencies' service areas, it can often
=>be hard if neither (a) nor (b) is true, where (a) is "neither BART nor
=>CalTrain is convenient for the trip" and (b) is "the two agencies connect in
=>San Francisco."
=
=Gee, let's see, the train is at 4th & Townsend, the transbay terminal
=is at 1st and Mission (or therabouts), BART and MUNI are at 2nd and Market,
=and the Ferry terminal is at Market and the Embarcadero.  I don't
=call those easy connections.

But CalTrain and (e.g.) the ferries do not *connect* in San Francisco.
Therefore, I don't call that an easy connection, either.  (I knew this, and
that's why I didn't make (b) "the two agencies go to S.F.")

I would consider (e.g.) a Transbay Terminal/BART connection to be an easy
connection, though, since it's only a couple blocks between the two.

=>Where was work?  What connection(s) was/is (were/are) bad?
=
=Home: Townsend&Embarcadero->walk to 4th&Townsend->CALTRAIN->Castro St.
=->SCT to Moffett Field.  Takes about an hour and half each way,
=*if* the train and bus are both on time.  Often they are not.
=I'm sorry, but that's just rotten transit.  Driving takes less
=than 45 minutes.

Okay.  I can't argue against that.

My experience in riding Bay Area mass transit is that the trains are usually
on time (for example, I think I've only once been on a CalTrain that's more
than one or two minutes late), but that busses can often be late.  A late
bus seems to be almost always (if not always) due to either bad vehicle
traffic or a mechanical problem with the bus.

=> I'd bet I could do the following trip in under one day using nothing but
=>busses and trains (unfortunately I don't have the schedules with me to prove
=>it, but I can list which routes to use if someone wants that) :  from the
=>S.F. Airport, go down the peninsula and to the S.J. Airport,
=
=You need a bus connection from the airport to CALTRAIN, and another bus
=connection to get from the train to San Jose Airport.  Trains are
=sparser than you might expect, and those connections... But then,
=there's still more buses.

I've ridden around the Bay Area a lot on mass transit, and I collect all the
bus & train schedules when I can, so I know pretty much how frequently each
line runs.

=> then go up the
=>East Bay (with a short stop at the Oakland Airport) to the Richmond BART
=>Station, then take a bus across the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, then come
=>down though Marin County and S.F. and return to SFO.
=
=I wouldn't hold my breath trying to make these connections either.  I
=wager 10 bucks that you can't complete this trip in 8 hours.

I was thinking more along the lines of a day being 12 hours when I wrote the
above.  Anyway, after seeing this last comment, I thought about this for a
while.  I concluded that it could probably be done in eight hours, but only
if one started at the right time and if all of the mass transit vehicles on
this trip were on time.  You didn't restrict starting time, but I would not
take this 8-hour bet because I know that the chance of this many
busses/trains all being close enough to on time to make the close
connections is low.  I would definitely take a 10-hour bet, though.

=>"We have not inherited the earth
=>from our ancestors, but are
=>borrowing it from our children."
=>
=> - David Brower, conservationist
=
=let me add to the quote: ...but are borrowing it from our children with our
=satisfaction with the present.

I got the (partial) quote from some literature that an environmental group
mailed to me.  Interesting to see that the group didn't use the whole quote.


"Planet Bog - pools of toxic chemicals | Michael Ludwig
bubble under a choking atmosphere      |
of poisonous gases.  But aside from    | mludwig@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
that, it's not much like Earth."       |
        - Calvin (of Calvin & Hobbes)  | UCI and I don't agree on anything.
Newsgroups: ca.general,ba.general