HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pdorman@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Peter Dorman)
Subject: Re: REI backpacks
Summary: All it needs is a little adjustment 
Organization: Hamilton College - Clinton, NY
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:53:12 GMT

The suspension system on the REI backpack that I own is *complicated*.
Let me tell you how complicated.  Shortly after I bought my pack I made
arrangements for a 5-day trip through the Sierras.  Since I was living
in Massachusetts at the time, I conscientiously removed the rigging from
the pack and stuffed it inside for air shipment.  By the time I arrived
in San Francisco I (naturally) had forgotten how to put the thing back
together, so I headed down to the REI store in San Jose to get some
help.  No one there was quite sure what to do.  There was no
documentation.  True, there were packs sitting in the store already
assembled, but damned if they could figure out where all those straps
and pins were supposed to go.  Then, after much tinkering, they told me
they had it worked out.  I thanked them and headed up to the mountains.

Most of you can imagine what happened next.  No sooner was I out on the
trail under a full load then the whole contraption started coming
unglued.  With each step the pack was swinging like a punching bag,
landing painful body blows to my shoulders and back.  So I took it off
and tried to figure out the missing adjustment.  Then I put it back on
for an hour or so until it had become unbearable again.  So it
continued: off and on, a brutal trial and error process that lasted
until the final day, when, a few miles from the trail head, I finally
had everything just right.

Since then it's been great.  Incidentally, after BACKPACKER magazine
panned the REI pack in a review, someone (I think from REI) wrote in and
said, Of course it didn't perform well--you just hadn't made the proper
adjustments...

By the way, in spite of my pack horrors, I had a wonderful trip.  I will
never forget the sight of the upper reaches of Yosemite Valley, seen
from 20 or so miles to the south, totally unexpected, coming around a
turn in the trail.

Peter Dorman
pdorman@hamilton.edu 
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:10508 rec.climbing:5391
From: bh419@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ted B Samsel)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Bull Riding (was Re: Bull Fighting (was A-word))
Date: 26 Jan 1993 11:58:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Rodeo riders have to be more than a bit crazy. I recall Slappy
Gilstrap's song that goes:
"I'm a rodeo-deo-deo rider,
Borederin' on the insane."

My sister used to date a bull rider in college until he became
an instant quadrepligiac (sp?). A tuff life, cierto.
-- 
Ted....
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,su.etc
From: wbm@freedom.stanford.edu (Wally Mann)
Subject: Victims Wanted for First Aid Simulation
Originator: wbm@freedom.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: su
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:20:57 GMT

Want to refresh your first aid skills?
Want to have fun and an incredibly surreal experience at the same time?

Be a victim!

I'm looking for volunteers to play act injured people on Saturday, 
January 30th.  You get to have catsup poured all over you, scream
and moan a lot, and have participants rescue you from your predicament.
Our simulations are very intense ... I don't want to describe it more
because someone reading this may be in the program.  (The simulation
is being run for the REDWOOD leadership training class.)

I need help with 2 simulations ... one from noon to 3pm and the other
from roughly 3pm to 6pm.

Contact me if you'd like to help.
Wally Mann
wbm@freedom
494-8442
From: dickman@ecst.csuchico.edu (Bob Dickman)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: REI backpacks
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:38:52 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <1993Jan26.053138.4383@fcom.cc.utah.edu> jensen@peruvian.cs.utah.edu (travis jensen) writes:
>A quick question regarding REI backpacks:  I heard that
>REI buys them from another company (either Camp Trails
>or Kelty) and then puts their name on them.  Can anyone
>confirm or deny this?  Also, does anyone have any reasons
>why I should not buy an REI backpack?
>

I *love* REI, but I'm afraid my NewStar backpack has had stitching failure\
twice in less than a year now.  I had minor failure on a side seam due to
heavy tension used to tighten it up.  Also, the shoulder strap anchor point
in the middle pulled out when lifting the pack to put it on.  

Both cases involved more than normal use, but it seems to me that the pack
should handle it.  Both times I returned the pack and got a new one.  Maybe
I should have let them repair it and I would have ended up with a stronger
overall pack.

-- 
Bob Dickman                 --------- __o       __o       __o       __o
dickman@ecst.csuchico.edu   ------- _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_
California State University ------ (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)
Chico, CA                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: nichael@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Edward Abbey Quote in JFK
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:52:38 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@bbn.com
Organization: BBN, Interzone Office
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov's message of 27 Jan 93 12:20:13 GMT

eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
   From: [l/m 1/21/93] Film/Cinema		Distilled wisdom (27/28) XYZ

   From the ever popular Edward Abbey is book The Brave Cowboy, the film
   Lonely are the Brave -- with K. Douglas, sleeper written by E. Abbey
   [...]

Concerning Abbey and film-references:

Did anyone else notice this curious bit in Oliver Stone's "JFK".
During the courtroom scene the Jim Garrison character quotes the
famous Abbey line "The patriot must always be ready to defend his
country from its government".

However he attributes it merely to "an American naturalist..."

Does anyone know anything about this?  Why were they (apparently)
specifically avoiding mentioning/naming Abbey?  (Maybe couldn't get a
release from Abbey's family?)

(A thousand pardons if this has already been discussed to death.  I
only saw the movie for the first time recently.)

[BTW, does anyone know the exact source of this quote?]

Nichael
ncramer@bbn.com                   -- "Pull Down/Tear Up" - D Martin
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bbarkey@lark.utah.edu (Brian Barkey)
Subject: Re: Avoid Lyme Disease: Go naked?
Organization: University of Utah
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 03:50:02 GMT

In article <11224@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1993Jan28.024945.77342@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> mcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Marc Gabriel) writes:
>>Peter Silsbee (psilsbee@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <1993Jan27.160725.18432@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (
>>Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
>
>>: >deer tics do not tend to bite people at
>>: >nudist camps but do bite the same people when not at the camp. 
>
>>I would not bet my health on this *theory*.  Has this theory been put to the
>>test?  Has the researcher visited nudest camps and inspected the bodies?
>
>>Sounds like a feeble theory to me.
>
>
>Sounds to me more like somebody trying to get into a really
>interesting research project.  Will NSF fund this?  
>

Well, this sounds like a great idea! Paid for inspecting naked bodies!
But I'll need someone else to inspect the bodies I don't want to 
inspect, a grad student maybe. Wait! I am the grad student! 
Nope, Nix this idea...

>(Of course the researcher might get the "Golden Fleece" award.)

Brian "hopeless" Barkey
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: marks@ssdevo.enet.dec.com (Randy Marks)
Subject: Re: Feathered Friends?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Colorado Springs
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:12:15 GMT


In article <1j1v73INN1or@hp-col.col.hp.com>, chrism@col.hp.com (Chris Magnuson) writes...
>	Does anyone have any experience with products from Feathered Friends of
>	Seattle?  I'm looking at getting an expedition parka and down pants.

Yes.  This past summer they proved to be VERY slow at fulfilling orders.
Allow a month more than what they tell you for delivery.

	Randy Marks
(UUCP)	                {decvax,ucbvax,allegra}!decwrl!ssdevo.enet!marks
(INTERNET)              marks@ssdevo.enet.dec.com
(domain-based INTERNET) marks%ssdevo.enet@decwrl.dec.com
..........................................................................
	"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe
	while the legislature is in session."
..........................................................................
From: x90watz@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Red River Gorge Area, Kentucky ??
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:52:05 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Hola netters!

I'm now planning a trip to the Kentcky wilderness -- specifically the Daniel
Boone National Forest in the region of Red River Gorge.........  Just want to
know if there is anyplace I can get detail maps of the area.....so I can
purchase topo's later.......

Plan on going at the end of April -- should be warm, no?  Any
advice/experiences/good places to go would be very much appreciated......

Thanks,

-Mike-
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel)
Subject: Re: how do you feel about a group of 1!
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY, 12866
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:21:14 GMT

On the flip side... how about a group of 1?  I started backpacking
last year (after a 10 year interruption), and enjoy going by myself.
Now I get flack from aunts, friends, even wife, about how dangerous
this is.. I *should* go with at least one other.  So,... how many
people backpack by themselves?  What's the advice on this?


-- 
Pierre von Kaenel  |  Math & CS Dept | Skidmore College | pvonk@skidmore.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ads from premier issue of PC Tech Journal (Jul 83): 20MB Hard disk from
QCS - Cost: $2999.   Davong 5 MB int. hard disk... only $1465!
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Light Weight Back Packing?
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:19:26 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <Jan26.205738.26003@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>I ran into Charlie Fowler one evening at the base of the Longs Peak north
>face (about 13000 ft).  He had no pack and was on his way up while the
>rest of us were on our way down... said he was going to just "crawl
>under a rock and sleep."  He also said he had a snowmobile suit he wears
>on colder nights.
>
I once camped near a climb with an immense Dane (a great Dane? :-))
in our party named Olaf.  He forgot to bring his sleeping bag.
As the temperature droped into the high thirties he stayed warm by
jogging up and down the nearby road singing something in german that
sounded like: "Ya, wir sind alles lustiges Bergsteigern."  His voice
was pitched a octave lower than Pavaroti and the decibels probably
violated OSHA regs.  It was more like an earthquake than a voice.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Edward Abbey Quote in JFK
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:06:53 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <NICHAEL.93Jan27105238@kariba.bbn.com> ncramer@bbn.com writes:
>
>Concerning Abbey and film-references:
>
>Did anyone else notice this curious bit in Oliver Stone's "JFK".
>During the courtroom scene the Jim Garrison character quotes the
>famous Abbey line "The patriot must always be ready to defend his
>country from its government".
>
>However he attributes it merely to "an American naturalist..."
>
>Does anyone know anything about this?  Why were they (apparently)
>specifically avoiding mentioning/naming Abbey?  (Maybe couldn't get a
>release from Abbey's family?)

Probably because to the average American, "an American naturalist"
is more meaningful than the name Edward Abbey. 

You know the average American: the one feeding a Snickers bar to the
Grizzly in Yellowstone Park.

Edward who?


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,news.groups
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: do you want a new group -- rec.camping?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:55:01 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <C16ro1.IoA@ms.uky.edu> miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant) writes:
>
>I agree with the proposed new group format!
> rec.outdoors.splunking and rec.outdoors.repelling might be choices.

Right, and rec.outdoors.camping.3persontent.groundcloths.  In fact we
can do away with the Subject field alltogether.  Every time you want
to start a new thread of discussion, just start a new newsgroup.







-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
From: timsc@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Tim Schneider)
Subject: Bull Riding (was Re: Bull Fighting (was A-word))
	<11175@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> <Jan25.194427.24992@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:47:05 GMT
Reply-To: timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com
X-Posted-From: aspen.hwcae.az.honeywell.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


I would agree, I had a friend in high school that rode bulls (he had
his face stomped on by one... his jaw was wired shut for 6 months!) 
Also, having been bucked off of and kicked by several species of large
farm animals (horses and cattle respectively) I would take a 20'
runout anyday.  I remember seeing another friend of mine warming up
before his ride, pretty limber fellow, could do greater than a full
splits (ala J.C. Van Dame between the two chair backs)  Not that they
were the best atheletes by any means, but certainly one of the
"toughest?"

most injurious?  what was that one fellows name... the motorcycle jump
specialist...Evil Kinevel..??




--
            tim schneider

    timsc@hwcae.honeywell.com  OR
  uunet!asuvax!hwcae.honeywell.com!timsc
           (602) 436-3078
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Light Weight Back Packing?
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:12:14 GMT
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science

>In article <1jvm1aINN7r3@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, as376@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Stephen C. Ferguson) writes:
>> 
>> Does anyone know anything about very! light weight back
>> packing? I mean going into the woods for 1-2 nights with just
>> 20 lbs or so.  I am not talking survival tactics quite, I would 
>> still wnat to use a small stove of some kind with  other light
>> weight gear and a minimum of the basics.  I have a slight back 
>> problem and figure I cane still continue back packing if 
>> I go very lite weight and carry it very low on my back 
>> (belt pack of some kind?)

I just lay everything out on the floor and say do I really need this ? If
the answer is not an immediate yes then it stays.  Most of the time the
heaviest single item in my pack is my (1.5 L) water bottle.  My food is
always the heaviest combined item.

Cheers,

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah


"Great spirits have always encounter violent opposition from
mediocre minds."
	- Albert Einstein
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mike.federchuk@rose.com (mike federchuk)
Subject: Whisper Lite Tip
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:49:20 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-21-93 15:44
In <1993Jan16.065226.1@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu>, drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis
Chamberlin) makes a good point:

D>I have only had to do this once in two years. I filter all my fuel going
D>into the bottle with a Coleman filter funnel.

Now, for those of you with out your handy-dandy Coleman fuel filter/funnel
thingy....  A paper coffee filter and ordinary funnel also works great as a
"crud-trap" when transferring fuel from any container to an MSR fuel bottle.

Just remember not to re-use the paper filter to make coffee!  Not that anyone
would really enjoy a good cup of coffee in the back country....(Oh boy! Here we
go again! :-)

Regards,
Mike

Mike Federchuk              | 
Burlington, Ontario, Canada | 
Mike.Federchuk@rose.com     | 
---
   QMPro 1.0 42-0589   "Suicide Hotline...please hold."
   RoseMail 2.00 : Usenet: Rose Media - Hamilton (416) 575-5363
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Heavy Weight Backpacking (was Re: Light We
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 22:21:59 GMT

>>>What are the unusual (and RARELY USED) items people carry when they
>>>go *heavy* weight backpacking?  
>>
>>Steaks and Champagne (i.e., deluxe non-dehydrated fully-certified food!).
>
>Here's a list of some not-so-fond memories of silly things I've carried
>at least several miles in the backcountry.
>
>  - 50lbs of climbing gear

Ditto. I remember one trip, we had these 4-inch bongs (pitons),
fortunately (or not) we left one in at the retreat when we started rapping
down.

>  - fresh food
>  - cans of beer

Heavy weight isn't the right word.  These are nice conveniences.
I can think of a share of neat stories (skiing into the Ostrander Lake hut
with fresh food to the amazement of some hypothermic novices to so
stupid snow survey trips and cans of beer).

>  - a bycicle (with a flat tire)

I am planning a trip next summer where I will cache a mtn bike, drive to a
trail head, hike two days, ride a shuttle bus to the bike and cycle back
to the truck.  This gets done once or twice a year.

>  - four or five books, of which I didn't read one

See ... The film Platoon.

>  - a pair of donhill skis boots and poles (on my back)

Yes, but that's a normal ski mountaineering trip.  You have to know
when it's best to ski and when best to walk.

Let's see my list:
	- Landsat radiometers: fragile
	- pyrogeometers: fragile
	- DEC LSI-11 based computers: fragile
	- 15 lb batteries to power said computers and lasers
		these I felt worse about: dense
	- laser ranger finders, heavy out cases
	- theodolites: heavy out cases
	- SIPRE augers
	- tripods for the above: heavy ones
	- chain saws and fuel: 24 and 36 inch.
	- 75 lbs of lumber (5 boards) -- work party trip
	- tape recorders and big film gear
	- occasionally I use several small cast iron skillets (distributes
		the heat better)
	- occasional thick hard bound book

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:10562 rec.climbing:5418
From: Ralph.C.Lindenfeld@dartmouth.edu (Ralph C. Lindenfeld)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Bull Fighting (was A-word)
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:55:32 GMT
 <1993Jan26.221612.24457@nas.nasa.gov> 
 <Jan26.234207.55670@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>  
 <1993Jan27.181428.28066@news.arc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b3@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1993Jan27.181428.28066@news.arc.nasa.gov>
watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:

> As I see it, skiing is more likely to injure you (because of the velocity)
> >whereas climbing is more likely to kill you (because of the velocity).
> 
> Actually it's not velocities you've got to beware of, 
> it's the sudden negative accelerations (especially the ones cause by 
> large immovable objects).

At last count there have been two deaths this year in VT due to folks
skiing into trees. (There's a lot more people skiing down the slopes
than climbing up them, of course)

Ralph Lindenfeld
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: larryk@sr.hp.com (Larry Kubo)
Subject: Re: Request for info on Mt. Shasta
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:41:25 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]


Two  friends and I went up Shasta last September.
We had to get a permit at the ranger station in Mt Shasta City,just across
the railroad tracks from the Fifth Season. The Fifth Season also publishes
a 2-sided folio on various routes up Shasta, available at many outdoor
equipment establishments.

None in my group had done Shasta, so we choose Av.Gulch.  There is a very
good spring at the Horse Camp, which is the Sierra Club hut. We hauled our
water up to Helen Lake. We stayed at Helen for the night.

We got up at 6am, and started up around 7am. We took the right side of the
Heart, using crampons.  This stretch up to Red Banks is the steepest
portion of the hike. The snow petered out, so I just slogged up to Red Banks.
Nothing technical, but rockfall (from others above) was worrisome.

Misery Hill is aptly named. At 13,000', you're feeling a bit tired. It starts
out pretty easy, but it steepens the last third or so. You come out to a
plateau, and the actual spire seemed anti-climatic to me.

We walked across this snow field, and came upon the Sulfur Springs. A digital
thermometer measured 154 degrees F. You could smell the H2S half a mile away.

The last 200 feet was a bit icy, but negotiable. Do you know to do a self-
arrest? I can imagine in colder and inclement weather more problems. We
took 4.5 hours from Helen Lake.

I would heed advice about respecting the variable weather. Mt Shasta is
almost by itself at 14,000', so wind and weather can quickly move in. I
remember feeling a bit hypothermic at the summit, while we ate lunch and
sat still.

 I recollect, walking back, looking at the Whitney Glacier near Shastina
below. The immense crevasses there should remind everyone that this
mountain can kill. With all the recent precipitation, Mt Shasta won't be
safe to climb without some ice-snow knowledge and experience.
<include std disclaimers>

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Subject: Re: Altimeter watches
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:45:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.211820.1622@cypress.com> wl@cypress.com (Wilbur Luo/COMM) writes:
>
>In article 1k3tgjINNp2n@mojo.eng.umd.edu, moo@king.eng.umd.edu (Deac Moo of the UGC) writes:
>>In article <23287@venera.isi.edu>, jdeifik@isi.edu (Jeff Deifik) writes:
>>
>> Wait two years, and you can get the GPS watch.
>
> The unit with SA turned off had excellent accuracy (i.e., the width 
> of a medium sized trail). So if you were to grid up a topo map you can 
> get pretty much nail down your location. The altitude was iffy at times 
> - especially with SA on.

Still, without a topo map, how to you know where you are?
If your little GPS box says you're at 
118 degrees 47 minutes N, and 36 degrees 54 minutes W
and at 4155 feet.  Do you know much without a topo map?

Back to the Subject, a few months ago I baught one of the 
new casio altimeter watches. It is most useful when I 
remember to set it at the start of a hike.  Then using
a topo map, I can  more easily find how far along the trail 
I've gone (assuming there is some change in altitude).
The drawback is I'm alway pullng out the map now  and 
checking my position.  Hopefully the novelty will wear off.

I also like the "sample every  15 minutes" function.
It can hold up to 50 samples.  So if I set it at the start 
of the hike,  at the end I can go back and look at the hike 
in profile on the bar graph display.

The accurray it's the greatest ... 20 ft increments.
And on a typical day hike loop, it is usually 100 ft off
from the start to the finish.


John S. Watson               watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov
#include <stddsclm.h> 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry