From: holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu (Richard Holowczak)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.car
Subject: CAR ALARM FAQ (I think)
Date: 4 Nov 92 22:13:45 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, Piscataway NJ



I think I have enough options covered here to justify a FAQ. If some
one can tell me where to put it, I'll maintain it. Otherwise, I'll
just keep posting it from time to time as needed.


Rich Holowczak
holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu


=============================== ALARM FAQ =========================
Thanks for everyone who sent me mail and posted suggestions on car
alarms. Here is my summary of what I did. 

Disclaimer
----------
All of these statements you see below are my opinion only. I do not
profess to be a car alarm expert, a criminologist, an electrician
or a car thief.


What I got back
---------------
I posted my quandary over car alarms in alt.locksmithing and
rec.audio.cars and got many responses.  Thanks to all of you who
wrote to me.  I received responses ranging from: "Do not even
bother with an alarm. They are all useless and a waste of money."
to "Just stick a blinking LED on your dash. This will ward off all
thieves because they are stupid."  I also got a wide range of stuff
in between.  All of these responses are posted at the end of this
FAQ.


Thieves
-------
I guess I would classify car thieves in to 3 categories. One would
be your average teenager out for a joyride. He or she is probably
looking for an unlocked car or a car sitting with the keys in it or
perhaps a car sitting in a secluded area. At most they might carry
a slim jim to open up a door.

Number two would be your amateur car thief who breaks in to cars to
take out the radio or steals the car to go some place and abandon
it. Provided there are not many witnesses, he might pry open your
door with a crowbar or break a window to get in.  He probably
carries a small bag of tools with which to rip out your stereo.

Number three would be the professional car thief. He steals your
car and takes it to a strip house where any and all valuable parts
are stripped off.  This includes car alarms, stereos, wheels,
doors, quarter panels, etc. Some parts enter a sort of "black
market" for car parts and can even end up on the shelf at your
local gas station.  This thief will have an arsenal of tools with
him.  He might employ an RF scanner to scan your alarm transmitter
or might even have a friend with a tow truck to drag your car
kicking and screaming away.  He will also target cars and keep logs
on when the car is left unattended and where. 

Recently, there has been some talk of tinted windows warding off
thieves.  IMHO, I think these attract more attention rather than
ward off someone just because they can't see inside.  Besides, the
thief heard your "Boomin' System" when you pulled up so he knows
you have something decent inside. Also, some people have expresses the 
opinion that it is best to hide any evidence of your alarm and wait for
the thief to set it off and then get scared and run away.  The thinking here
is that if you put the stickers on your windows identifying your brand
of car alarm, it gives the thief an edge because he now knows what
kind of alarm he must defeat.  Along these lines, most every alarm
has a distinctive sound when it is armed and disarmed.  Also, each siren
gives off distinct sounds as well.  All a thief must do is listen to
you arming and disarming your system and he can set your car alarm off
by throwing a rock at it or something.  From these two indicators, he
probably has a very good idea of what brand of alarm you have. (as well
as the fact that you have one to begin with).

I think that most car alarms are effective at warding off numbers
one and two.  However, no amount of alarms or other theft
deterrents can stop number three.  As most people say, *NOTHING*
can stop someone from taking your car if they really want it. I
agree with this.

The whole point to an alarm or any theft deterrent is to make your
car less of a target then the next guys. I now have an alarm and I
also use a steering wheel lock bar.  I know that wherever I park,
there are at least 3 or 4 cars around me with no alarm or no
steering wheel lock so this makes my car less attractive to steal.
This is how I approached purchasing a car alarm.


What I did
----------
I went shopping for alarms in the $300 - $400 range. My car dealer
wanted $500 for a rather flimsy system. I also saw several alarms
in the $150 - $250 range which did not include some of the more
important features I was looking for.

I looked at systems from:

Viper
VSE Derringer/2
Alpine
Clifford
Code Alarm
UNGO Box


The Alpine and Code Alarm were well out of my price range (over 1K
for a complete system). Code alarm has some cheaper systems but no one
close to me had them.  The only installer near me who carried the
Clifford assumed I knew nothing about alarms and tried to rip me
off big time.  He was consequently shot down by some 30 questions
I fired at him.  I also found out the installer who does the UNGO
box was under investigation by the police for following customers
home and stealing their cars.  This brings up a good point. Try to 
get  some good recommendations from others before you go to a 
dealer.  Also, when you take your car for the install, or for
any service for that matter, take everything out of your glove
compartment which might further identify you and where you live.
Don't give them your entire set of keys. Just the ones for the
car. 

I'm sure the UNGO box and the Clifford are nice systems but I can't
travel 100 miles every time I have a little problem with my alarm.

The two that it came down to were the Derringer/2 and the Viper
systems.  The two were neck and neck but I chose the Viper system
in the end.

I just got a Viper model 300 alarm installed.  Evidently, this is
the system Mercedes and Audi install in their cars from the
factory. 

Viper also makes a model 600 which has one more output which costs
$100 more but I did not need the extra output.

I have a worksheet of questions I asked the various installers. I
also included whether or not the Viper or Derringer has these
features. I placed it at the end of this posting. 


"Standard" features
-------------------
One thing to be aware of.  In the sales brochures, the alarms are
listed with many "standard" features. For the Derringer, there is
the convenient Dome Light feature, etc. The catch is, just because
the alarm manufacturer thinks this is "standard", the alarm
installer might not do it as part of the package price.  So make
sure you find out about every last detail of the install *BEFORE*
the installer begins.  I got burned on this for my install.  I was
quoted a fairly decent price for the install, but when I picked the
car up, the lights did not flash when arming or activated as
advertised in the brochure.  The installer said that they only
install this as an option, not standard.  Oh well, live and learn.


The installation
----------------
This is the number one feature you should shop for in an alarm. A
great alarm system installed poorly will cause you grief in a great
many ways.  False alarms, no alarms, etc. are just a few.  While I
was getting mine installed, a fella came in with his Mustang which
had a "factory" installed alarm system.  The motion sensor was
mounted along a beam where water collected and shorted it out. Ask
your installer where EVERYTHING is going to be placed.  

The main alarm unit, sometimes called the "brain", should be
mounted in the most secure place you can.  I had mine placed up
inside the dashboard.  They basically took the whole dash apart,
installed the alarm, and then put the whole dash together around
it. Some places wanted to install the brain under a seat or even up
under the carpet on the passenger side ("so we can adjust it
easier").  Run, do not walk, away from these installers.

Story time: I had one fella write me that his car was broken in to.
They defeated the alarm by simply cutting a few wires.  I would
think that if the alarm is hidden properly and wires are not left
exposed, this would be slightly difficult.  As I mentioned on
my system, the brain unit is literally inside the dash up against the
fire wall.  The only wires which come out of there are to the LED and
to the valet switch.  It does not do anything to the system if these
wires are cut.  If anything, cutting the valet switch wires will set the
alarm off.

It is also important to get, up front, what the policy is if you
have problems with your system.  Some installers said I would have
to make an appointment to bring the car back in.  The installer who
I finally chose says to bring the car back in whenever I want to. 
He will stop working on a new install to take care of any problems.
Since I've had no problems yet, I don't know how much of this is
true, but it sure sounds good. He also schedules free sessions
where they go over the car every 3 to 6 mo. to make sure the alarm
is still functioning properly.

Update to this: My dash started making a rattling noise about 2 mo. after
the alarm was installed.  I called them up, they said to bring it right over.
I did and they went over the whole dash tightening up all of the screws and
fittings, etc. No charge, no hassle.


Remotes
-------
All alarm manufacturers claim they have super long range remotes
that never break, etc. This is BS.  The range is only as good as
where the installer places the RF receiver in the car.  The Viper
remote is kind of flimsy but the buttons are recessed and small so
it is almost impossible to mash down the buttons while the thing is
in your pocket (or wife/girlfriend's purse).  I have heard of
people running down the remote batteries this way. Some remotes
even have a limit on how long the transmitter will stay on. If you
press and hold a button, the transmitter might come on for about 5
seconds and then automatically cut off until you release and press
again.

Update: I was washing the car and had the alarm set in valet mode. With
keys in pocket, I bent down to scrub a door panel when the alarm
locked my doors (I have this feature).  Seems when I bent down, the
keys were in just the right spot to press the arm button.

I have also heard several people comment about the Derringer
remotes being not so good.  The guy at the alarm place sells both
Derringer and Viper and said the Derringer remotes have some
problems.

As far as range is concerned, if my car is in a full parking lot or
parking deck, I cannot arm or disarm my alarm from more than 50
feet away and only in line of sight at that.  When my car is in the
driveway, I can trigger the alarm from inside my living room. Go
figure.

Make sure you know what kind of battery the remote takes and how
long they last.  It would be a shame to end up spending an arm and
a leg on some tiny powerful battery every 3 months.


Starter Kill
------------
Basically, when the alarm is armed, the starter is electronically
disconnected so the car cannot be started or even hot wired. Again,
most alarms have this as a standard feature but be sure to ask
about it. (see Insurance below).

Valet switch
------------
This is a toggle switch you can set to keep your alarm from going
off if you have to leave it with a valet or for car repairs.  Most
of the systems I looked at have this feature.

Passive v. Active arming
------------------------
With passive arming, the alarm becomes armed after a given time
period after the last car door has closed. To disarm, you can
either get in to the car and place the key in the ignition within
a certain time period or press a button on a remote transmitter to
disarm the alarm.

With active arming, you have to press a button on a transmitter to
arm the alarm. To disarm, you press the transmitter button again.

On the Viper system, you can actively arm and disarm the alarm with
the remote.  However, if you forget to arm the alarm, 30 seconds
after the last door or trunk has closed, the alarm automatically
arms itself. This makes a difference for insurance purposes. (see
Insurance below).  I just have to make sure I never close the door
with my keys sitting on the seat! (I also have automatic locks).
Someone posted that this is a good way to get screwed if your alarm
becomes armed with they keys inside.  With my system, the alarm
"knows" when the keys are in the ignition and will not arm if they are.
I never ever ever ever leave my keys just sitting there on the seat.
Especially when I stop to make a phone call as this fella suggested.


Arming and Disarming beeps
--------------------------
Most alarms give you an audible alert when the alarm is armed or
disarmed.  This serves two purposes. One is to let you know the
alarm is working and on the job.  The other is to let others
(thieves) know you car has an alarm.  The Viper does one simple
chirp for arm and two for disarm. Some alarms have really long
annoying arming sequences that go on for ever. In a quiet
neighborhood, this is not appreciated I assure you.  

One great feature on the Viper system. Every time you arm or disarm
the system, you have the option of doing so silently.  Most other
alarms give you this choice at installation time only so you are
stuck with one or the other.

With the lights hooked up, the Viper would still flash the parking
lights to tell you the alarm is armed or disarmed.


Motion sensor
-------------
Some alarms like the UNGO box and others have a motion sensor.  In
the UNGO Box's case, it is a tube filled with mercury surrounded by
a wire coil.  When the car moves, the mercury moves within the tube
causing current to flow in the coil.  This is what sets the alarm
off.  Other have some type of spring with a weight on it so when
the car moves, the weight bobbles back and forth and makes contact
with the casing causing the circuit to be completed.  The former
method has a patent, the latter has no patent because it is
worthless.  If you have ever heard a parking lot full of alarms
going off at an airport or a parking deck, it is because of this
type of sensor.  These are prone to false alarms from passing
trucks, thunder, airplanes, etc.

The UNGO Box's sensor is highly adjustable, however, if you adjust
it to eliminate all false alarms, then you have basically disabled
its usefulness for triggering real alarms IMHO. Some people swear
by this sensor so I leave it to you to decide.

BTW, this can be added to my system as another input.


Shock sensor
------------
This is what comes standard on the Viper and most other alarms
except the Derringer.  It basically senses motion like a motion
sensor but scans a very short period of time.  I can rock my car
and push up and down on it and the shock sensor will not go off. If
I kick a tire or hit the window or door with my fist, the alarm
goes off. So far (3 months) I have had no false alarms from rain
(tropical storm Daniell), thunder, large trucks or parking deck
vibrations.  Make sure your shock sensor is adjustable and that
your installer will do adjustments free of charge with no
appointment needed.

Glass breakage sensor
---------------------
What this is supposed to do is pick up on the particular high
frequencies of glass being broken or cut and to trigger the alarm.
It is basically a microphone placed somewhere inside the car. This
is standard on the Derringer and an option on most other systems
like the UNGO, Alpine and Viper. I have heard that as a car ages,
the creaks and squeaks from plastic panels shifting and other car
noises can also set off the glass sensor.  I don't know how true
this is but I did not get a glass breakage sensor installed.  
Many people have written to me that this is THE most important
sensor for a car alarm.  Not only can it detect glass breaking, but
also glass cutting on some better sensors.  For me, this is a toss
up.  

Field motion sensor
-------------------
I have no idea what else to call this (some call it a perimeter
guard).  Basically this is the type of sensor which sets up some
type of field around the car and inside the car to detect masses
coming close to the car. I think it is a must for convertible
owners.  If you get one of these, be prepared to pay big bucks. 
There are many cheap ones you can add to any alarm, but you will
have nothing but problems with them (i.e. false alarms).  Some
Alpine systems are designed especially for this type of sensor and
have a price tag to match.

For other cars, I think these are unnecessary.  Some cheap units
are set off by anything.  There is a car parked right outside of my
classroom which is always being set off by falling rain and passers
by. Very annoying.  There are other fancy alarms which have a pre-
recorded message like "Please step away from the car . . . ".  I
think these are really stupid and a waste of money.  I once
witnessed a new BMW being tortured by a group of kids throwing
rocks at it just to hear the little voice go off.

Once again, where I have to leave my car, they are basically
animals who will not leave something like this alone so I did not
go for it.  However, it makes you look cool if you want to impress
people who are generally impressed with stuff like this.

Current sensor
--------------
This basically monitors the current drain on the battery.  If it
changes, i.e. a door is opened causing a light to come on, the
alarm is triggered.  This is how many cheap alarms are triggered.
They just monitor the current.  The doors and trunk are all
protected because they have lights which will come on when opened. 
Some of the cheaper system use this as the ONLY method of triggering
the alarm.

The problem is, most newer cars have a fan inside the engine
compartment which comes on even after the car is turned off.  The
resulting drain on the battery will trigger a current sensor.  Some
installers will have some type of bypass for this but it sounds
like more trouble than it's worth.

Seat pressure sensor
--------------------
If someone sits in the seat, the alarm is triggered.  Not very
practical unless you have a convertible or big T-tops. By the time
the thief is in your seat, your car or your stereo is history
anyway.

Backup Battery
--------------
I also got a back up battery installed.  It charges off of the car
alternator just like the car's battery. If the car's battery goes
dead or if the power cables are cut, the battery can still run the
alarm and the siren.  The alarm will remain armed.

With cheaper alarms and/or poor installations, some systems might
end up wired in to your car in a haphazard way. Most alarms flash
the car's parking lights when activated. All a thief has to do is
short out a parking light, set your alarm off and whammo, your car
and the alarm goes dead. Several people have written me to say that
this cannot happen to a properly installed alarm.  I think the key
word here is "Properly".  Enough said. Anyway, thief gets in, 
replaces the right fuses and off he goes. 
With mine, the back up battery is on a separate
circuit so it can't be fooled with at all, unless you are in the
car and have most of the dashboard apart. It cost about $60 extra.
I think it is worth it. (see Insurance below)


Automatic Door locks/Unlocks
----------------------------
Another neat feature I got is automatic door locking. This is an
option on most alarms.  It uses what they call an "output" from the
alarm which can be programmed to do various things. Most installers
set this up so that when the alarm is armed, all door lock and when
the alarm is disarmed, all doors unlock.  This is a nice feature if
you are carrying things in your arms and need to lock or unlock a
door. This is especially nice if you have groceries or are holding
an infant or something.  Also in the rain, it is nice to be able to
unlock your car from within your house so you can just run out and
get in.

I did something a bit different. When I arm the alarm (or the alarm
arms itself passively after 30 seconds), all of my doors are locked
automatically.  However, when I disarm the alarm, the doors remain
locked. I did this so if someone is approaching my car, all of my
doors won't suddenly become unlocked when I go to get in.  Also, if
a thief somehow scans my transmitter code and disarms the alarm, he
will still have to break in to the car to get it unlocked (not that
this is at all difficult).  I have heard various arguments on both
sides of this but I think my solution makes sense for me.

If you are in primarily non-threatening situations, then it is nice
to have your car doors lock and unlock automatically.  Extra cost:
$75

BTW, see my points about door locking and passive arming above in the
Active/Passive Arming section.


Pagers
------
A pager (One brand is called Autopage) is used to page your beeper
when your car alarm goes off.  This way you can run to the parking
lot and chase a potential car thief away or catch the person who
just rammed in to your car before they speed away.  I can agree
with wanting to catch someone who has vandalized my car but I can't
see warding off a thief. First of all, where I must park, if
someone is stealing my car, and I come running up, they will
probably shoot me so they can take my keys to drive the car away.
Also, I park pretty far from where I attend classes and work so
even if the pager has the range to reach me, I'd have to run 3/4 of
a mile to my car when it goes off.

Needless to say, I did not get a pager installed. I think I can at
a later time so perhaps when I move to a better place in a land
far, far away . . .

Update: Some people have written to me saying that they use the paging
system to alert them as soon as their car is broken in to.  This way,
they can call the police right away.  Also, if their car is stolen,
they can get the police to start tracking it with Lo-Jack or something
similar. 

BTW, pagers may also use up an "output" on the alarm unit. Some
hook on to the siren and are triggered off of the vibration when
the alarm goes off. Kind of hokey if you ask me but a blessing if
you have no more alarm outputs.

Insurance
---------
Most insurance companies offer a percentage discount on your
premium if you install an alarm. I have a USAA policy which gave me
something like a 15% discount. Hey, 20 buck is 20 bucks!  The
biggest discounts go to alarms with passive arming. This means that
the alarm arms itself so you don't have to remember to do so.  If
you get a backup battery or a pager, also mention that.  Also, a
starter kill feature is mandatory for most alarms.  You must have
the stickers which announce the presence of your alarm displayed in
your car windows in order to be accepted.  My advice: Call your
insurance company and ask them if you need to send something to
them proving you had the alarm installed and the features it has. 
Your installer should provide you with a letter or some type of
form to submit.

Other hints
-----------
Aside from the alarm, I also got a set of wheel locks and a
steering wheel locking bar (The Club).  Now all of you locksmiths
can now tell me how easy it is to defeat these! :)  I never leave
anything in my car at all. No books, briefcase, jackets, etc. and
I never open the trunk to put anything in unless I'm ready to drive
away.  Aside from these things, I can't think of any other measures
I can take to prevent my car from being stolen or broken in to.
(BTW, my cassette player is broken so don't bother taking it!)
One last thing.  I always carry a copy of my car key, not the original.
If someone gets my keys, they still won't know which car is mine.
It is fairly easy to tell between an American car and foreign car key
but it will still slow them down a bit. Some people even recommend
carrying the alarm transmitter on another ring or in another pocket.
This way, if a theif gets they keys, he can't disarm the alarm. If he
gets the transmitter, he still has to break in, etc.


A few more points on alarms
---------------------------

Scanning
-----------
It seems that with cheaper and/or older alarms, it is possible to
transmit all of the codes in rapid fire sequence to a car alarm. 
Eventually, you will hit upon the right code combination to disarm
the alarm.  (Evidently the Viper has 2 to the 29th codes which is
not very many). The Derringer/2 only has 4096.

Newer (and probably more expensive) alarms can sense scanning
and lock out further attempts for a given period of time.

In many cases, it might not be worth the extra money for this
feature. I have no idea which alarms support this so it goes down
on the questions sheet. 

Features in general
-------------------
Also, some people might have gotten the impression that some alarm
features are useless or a waste of money.  It may be that these
features were not important to me personally, but they might be
important to you.  You have to decide if this feature will benefit
you and how much you are willing to pay for it. The Autopage is one
such example.  It might not make sense for me, but you might work
in a office where 20 people have alarms.  It's nice to know which
car alarm is going off without everyone running into the parking
lot to find out.

=======================================================================


Anyway, on to the LIST! Remember, after each question on this list,
you should ask: "Is this included in the price or is it extra?"

I loaned my filled in sheet to a friend for her alarm hunting so I
did not include many examples where the Viper and Derringer differ.
If there is nothing in parenthesis then either I don't know or it
is dealer specific. Otherwise:

            D = VSE Derringer/2
            V = Viper 300/600
            U = UNGO Box


)     Include switch pins for all 4 doors? (D,V,U)

)     Include switch pin for trunk? (D,V,U)

)     Include switch pin for hood? (D,V,U)

)     Include ignition kill when alarm is armed (also called Starter
      disable or Starter Kill)? (D,V-option,U)

)     Include Glass breakage sensor?  (D) What is the quality of
      this sensor?  Is it prone to false alarms (i.e. from creaking
      of inner car parts)? 

)     Can the glass breakage sensor also be triggered by glass
      cutting?

)     Include a seat pressure sensor?

)     Include a high quality adjustable motion sensor (if not very
      adjustable then forget it) ? (U)

)     Include a "dual sensitivity" switch for the motion detector
      (as with the Ungo box)? (U)

)     Include a switch to de-activate just the motion sensor?

)     Include a shock sensor? (V)

)     Is the shock sensor user adjustable? (V-no)

)     Can the shock sensor be shut off or disabled? (V-no)

)     Include a "field" sensor to sense moving objects? (Some Alpine
      systems)

)     Is this field sensor an "add-on" or is the alarm specifically
      designed for this type of sensor? (Some alpine systems)

)     What is the quality of this field sensor?  Is it prone to
      false alarms (e.g. rain, dogs, cats, other cars, passers by)?

)     Is the field sensor user adjustable for distance and time
      spans?

)     Include a current sensor?

)     Does the alarm have a "silent" testing mode so I can test the
      sensors, etc. (like the Derringer/2) ? (D)

)     Can the alarm be switched between active or passive arming
      (active arming only if not) every time the alarm is armed? (V)

)     Are there multiple zones?  (i.e. All doors = zone1, 
      trunk = zone2,  Hood = zone3 . . .) (D,V)

)     Does each zone have lock out capability when armed (i.e. if I
      leave the trunk open, will the rest of the sensors still
      activate)? (D,V)

)     Main unit "brain" mounted inside the dash board behind the
      center column or inside the dashboard.

)     Two sirens, one placed in an inaccessible location under the
      hood.

)     Can you install an internal alarm to sound *inside* the car?
      (Thanks again to R. L.)

)     Is all wiring well hidden. No exposed wires at all, especially
      to sirens and batteries?

)     Is there a remote "Panic" mode or at least some type of
      "finder" mode?

)     Are there relay outputs for automatic door locks when armed?
      (D,V)

)     Is there a switch for silent (lights flash only) or audible
      chirp when arming (like the Viper)? (V)

)     Back-up battery which powers both alarm and siren (How is it
      wired? In series? parallel? re-chargeable?

)     Are there 2 separate fused power inputs to avoid disabling the
      alarm by shorting out?

)     Are the power inputs isolated and fused close to the battery
      to avoid shorting out?

)     Include 2 small remote control transmitter units with decent
      range and long battery life?

)     What type of battery?  Where can I get them?

)     Does the transmitter have good range?

)     Do you have to be in line of sight to arm/disarm?

)     Does the transmitter stop transmitting after 1 second to avoid
      draining the transmitter battery?

)     Is it difficult to press down the buttons accidentally?

)     How many codes can the transmitter use?  Is it easily
      scannable?

)     Does the main unit contain anti-scanning circuitry?

)     Include a valet switch? (D,V,U)

)     Can a paging feature can be added at a later time? (D,V,U)

)     Does the pager use an additional output?

)     Does the dome light inside the car come on when the alarm is
      disarmed (Like the Derringer/2) ?  Does this cost extra?

)     What is your (alarm dealer's) policy for repairs (if the car
      is broken in to and the alarm is damaged)?

)     What is your policy for sensor and adjustments?

)     What is your policy for alarm maintenance (i.e. check wires,
      batteries, etc.) ?


I hope this has helped some of you.  Please send me more comments and
questions, etc. So I can build this up some more.


Rich Holowczak
holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu


========================== ALARM OPINIONS ==============================

Here are a bunch of people's opinions on car alarms. I took
the most recent postings and added them in as well.
Hope this helps.

Rich Holowczak
holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu

=========================================================================


From shawn@panix.com Wed Sep  2 19:57 EDT 1992
From: shawn@panix.com (Shawn Herzinger)

Hello Rich

I have a '90 Integra.  I had a VSE Derringer 2 installed about 1 1/2 years
ago.  I have never had a problem with it.  Its got every feature that you
want.  The two primary things to be concerned with in an alarm installation
are sensor quality and install quality.  All the "brains" from UNGO, Clifford
VSE, and Alpine are essentially the same.  As long as they are installed well,
and are getting clean power, they all do the same thing.  The sensors are 
what you depend on however.  VSE's shatterguard sensor (included with the
Derringer 2) is a top-performer.  The Derringer 2 offers a handy "diagnostic"
mode where you can check the sensitivity of the sensors without sounding 
the siren.  The installation is very important to having an effective alarm.
The sensors have to be mounted in the right positions in order to detect
tampering well.  They also have to be calibrated so that the alarm will not
sound off every time a truck drives by.  Living in NJ, I'm sure you hear the
false alarms day and night from cheap-shit alarms installed by losers.

I had my system installed by Rolling Tone in Upper Saddle River.  These guys
are not cheap!  Sometimes I think that they charge over suggested retail price.
However, I was impressed by there install talent.  They also give you an 
informal "lifetime" guarantee beyond the manufacturers' warranty, ("If anything
goes wrong, just bring it in and we will take care of it.")  I also had RT 
install the Alpine 8200 paging system.  I figured, there are so many false
alarms where I live (North Bergen), that nobody would pay attention to my 
wailing siren.  The pager is cool.  It hooks on your belt.  If the alarm is
triggered, my pager beeps.  Then I can run out to the parking lot and watch the
thief drive away. :-)  My install was about $1K.  But if you just go with the
Derringer2 I think you'll get in under budget.  If you have any questions about
my experience, E-mail me.

shawn

From david_nakayama@qm.sri.com Wed Sep  2 18:55 EDT 1992
From: "David Nakayama" <david_nakayama@qm.sri.com>
          Subject:  Alarms
Rich,
I just got a VSE Derringer 2 installed for my new car.  Many of my friends
swore by that alarm and recommended it to me as well.  It pretty much comes
with all features you mentioned as standard for under $400 installed.  You can
add some other numerous goodies as well.  If you have factory power locks, the
Derringer 2 is connected to it at no additional cost.  But then again, $400.00
is nothing to sneeze at. 

But I haven't had any problems with it, and the miniature 2 button remote is
very convenient.

... my two cents ...

-Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Nakayama                                     david_nakayama@qm.sri.com
Research Engineer                                    nakayama@tiger.sri.com
Systems Development Division
SRI International                                    fax:    (415) 859-4175
Menlo Park, CA                                       voice:  (415) 859-3919
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From paulf@halcyon.halcyon.com Thu Sep  3 01:16 EDT 1992
From: Paul Forgey <paulf@halcyon.halcyon.com>

The Avital alarm is not the most famous or trusted, but I got the
cyclone model for around $150, and it works great!  Just get the NON
PASSIVE ARMING!!!  It does not have zones, but it does have a mighty
sensitive adjustable shock sensor, no motion, though.  Features include
: door locks, parking light flash, remote, trunk and door sensors, shock
sensor, starter kill

paulf@halcyon.com

From: Edward Alexander Gianos <eag9s@honi1.acc.Virginia.EDU>
 
Rich,
 
I can understand your questions about different brands of car alarms.
quite the bummer, that 10 products seem to do exactly the same thing.
 
I just finished installing a fully-featured Excalibure AL-900GTX.  So,
I feel fairly competant on answering questions about alarms.
 
The most important aspect of an alarm system is :  THE INSTALL.  Let
me say that again:  THE INSTALL.
 
These little brain units are really fairly simple devices.  Just a few
inputs, control a few outputs, and have a RF receiver.  no problem.
Your shopping problems isn't that you are trying to find a good alarm
name, but rather that there are *many* excellent alarms.
 
My advice to you:  Buy an accepted name.  you know the names.  Buy on
features.  after all, these are really the only differences among them.
I like the neat gadgets.  (I installed power door locks in my Civic
so the alarm could use them...)  The more time you spend defining
exactly what you want your alarm to do, the better a decision you will
make.  Also, make sure the install is done right.  A great alarm installed
poorly will not protect your vehicle, and it will do funny things.  An
okay alarm installed correctly will do exactly what it is supposed to.

Good luck shopping, and let the net know what you decide.
 
Oh yeah, thing of alarms simply as state changing devices.  (input from
line 1, move to this state.....input from RF channel 2, do this...)
and make sure you've got all the necessary states covered.  I like
current sensing, power door lock control, power maze, TURN 
CONFIRMATION CHIRP ON/OFF, passive arming, valet switch.
 
later,
 
ed gianos

From: erw@garnet.berkeley.edu

Rich,

  Regarding car alarms, I just had one installed in my car a few
weeks ago.  I got the same run around at various places.  I ended up
with an Alpine system (8040 if I remember correctly), which has all
the features you described.  I ended up with this unit since I own a
soft-top, and this unit sets up a some type of field both inside and
outside the car.  If anyone gets within about 3 feet of the car, and
moves around the car for more than 5 seconds, the car softly chirps
(not the full sound).  If you reach a hand inside the car, the alarm
goes off.

  Other manufactures have a similar feature as an add on, but the
Alpine unit is designed specifically for this.  I also added a code
alarm shock sensor (not standard with this unit).  The code alarm
unit was more easily adjustable than the Alpine unit, but I didn't
really see that much difference.  Total cost was $400, installed.  I
did not have the automatic door locks, however (manual locks!).  Hope
this helped.

Evan Williams

From: YYSTG@LIMS01.LERC.NASA.GOV

Around here, you can get the top of the line Alpine, w/perimeter guard (for 
t-tops, convertibles, etc.) installed for around $350.  The prices have 
come down over the past couple of years.

S. Graham

From YYSTG@LIMS01.LERC.NASA.GOV Thu Sep  3 15:12 EDT 1992

Greater Cleveland Area.  I believe it has all the bells and whistles.  I was going to go with the Clifford when I changed my mind from t tops to a regular roof.
I ended up getting neither car, but the Clifford was a bit cheaper.  It also has there neat little magnetic shock sensor which works no matter what angle the car is parked at.  It had the sensor disable feature, also.

S. Graham

From: Jeffrey Pau <jpau@us.oracle.com>

Rich,

I have been using UNGO BOX alarm for a long time.  I personally like its reliability and
easy to install (I do all my own installations) and they are not that expensive and
comes with all the features you like to have (except the ability to lock out a sensor
if it is being continually tripped, I think! But why?).  I have installed them in my
old 320i, a VW GTI and my brand new 325i.  I have used the VSE Derringer/2 before, they
are good except more costly and more complicated to install and the shock sensor does
not work as well as an UNGO Box.   Fyi, I can even get you a new UNGO box with all those
features as you describes (yes, including automatic door locking/unlocking) for less
than $180.00.  Let me know if you have any questions or if you like me to get you one!

-Jeff

From: sjg1@cec2.wustl.edu (Seth J. Golub)

We got a Clifford alarm for our Saturn and we're very pleased with it.
I belive it has all the features you mentioned, plus at least one more
I can think of:  The remote switch (the little button you put on your
keychain) has an extra button so you can program it to open your
garage door.  Obviously, this only works with the right kind of garage
door openers, but they're more than willing to sell you one.  :-)
But seriously, we've had no trouble with our Clifford and were
impressed with some of the features we would not have thought of.

Seth Golub
sjg1@cec2.wustl.edu



From: "Jeff    Sync. Release  <jpau@us.oracle.com>" <jpau@us.oracle.com>

Rich,

If $350.00 include installations of all features: flashing parking lights,
ignition kill, hook and trunk switches, power door lock/unlock, etc., it
sounds like a fair price.  Ask them are they installation the top of the
line UNGO box (forgot the model #) and how much they charge just for the
alarm.  $180.00 here can get you the top of the line UNGO BOX and tax is
even included.  Usually a simple car alarm insllation starts with $100.00,
when special features are added (like ignition kill and power door lock, etc.)
they charge addtional for those.  Other details you may want to consider,
ask them where they would place the brain (control unit) of the alarm
(I've seen shops placed them right underneath the carpet, scary!),
preferrably behind the center console where it's hard to get to (car thiefs);
ask them where they are going to mount the siren (wires of the siren
should be hidden and hard to get to (otherwise it can be cut easily);
you may also want to consider a backup battery for the alarm just in case
the battery cable is being disconnected!

I don't have the UNGO Box installation manual with me, I believe the door
locking can be done as you described.

Cheers,
Jeff 

*******************************************************************************
  Jeffrey Pau                           Synchronized Release, UNIX SBU
  Email: jpau@us.oracle.com		Oracle Corporation
  Tel: (415) 506-2492			400 Oracle Parkway, box 659407
  Fax: (415) 506-7223			Redwood Shores, CA 94065
*******************************************************************************



From: sjg1@cec1.wustl.edu (Seth J. Golub)

We do have a shock sensor, but we haven't had any false alarms.
A friend of mine lives in Miami and complains of false alarms during
heavy rains (of which there are many).

From: Mark.Lomas@cl.cam.ac.uk

Viper is the system installed by Mercedes-Benz and Audi (at least on the
cars sold in this country).  The last time I took my car in for a service
(a Mercedes-Benz built before alarms were available as an option) there
was a leaflet advertising Viper on the passenger seat when I collected it.

Although the leaflet was put there by the dealer it says that it was
published by Mercedes-Benz UK who recommend these alarms.  They offered
a substantial discount on the list price - I could get Viper installed
by an official Mercedes-Benz agent cheaper than a car-dealer friend could
buy it at trade price; presumably Mercedes got a large discount for a
bulk purchase.

When the alarm is installed you get a choice (assuming that you have
central locking already) as to whether or not the remote control will
operate the door locks.  Although this is more convenient it is less
secure so I wouldn't recommend it.  What I'd prefer, although this option
isn't available, is that the remote control could lock but not unlock
the doors; you should need a key to get into the car.

A friend drives an Audi which had Viper installed during manufacture.  He
says that he has no problems with it and finds the remote control door
locks to be very useful.

I can't comment on the other alarms.

	Mark Lomas (tmal@cl.cam.ac.uk)

  Well, I once owned an Ungo Box and really liked it. My set up
was pretty basic and had door/trunk/hood entry detection and
motion detection. The thing I liked about the Ungo is its method
of detecting motion. They wrap a coil of wire around a glass vial
of mercury and run current through the coil. Any change in the
flux of the coil is then due to the mercury moving around inside
the vial. This method allows the motion sensitivity to be 
adjusted very precisely - unlike my current alarm which has two
sensitivities: touch with a feather to activate or run over with
a tank to activate. The Ungo also provides a dash switch that allows
you to choose between two levels of motion sensitivity whenever
you want. The two levels are based on how sensitive you adjusted
the main unit (one less sensitive, one the same).

my opinion (for what it's worth),
-- Tim

P.S. I have no affiliation with Ungo Box whatsoever - just liked
     the product %\)

From: galway@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Denis McKeon)

Quick response:

I'm not a locksmith, but on this group who is? :-) (yeah, ok, a few.)

You should shop for reasonably priced alarms at a large auto parts chain
store - I found that Pep Boys was the only local chain with clearly
marked prices, and they also had a good selection, do good
installations, and had a comparision chart in the store catalog.

Detailed response:

The alarm topic comes up on rec.motorcycles fairly often.  Other potential
newsgroups for info are rec.autos, rec.audio.car, and misc.consumers.

If any one can point to an on-line FAQ, or a detailed recent published
comparision of car alarms, please e-mail to me and I'll summarize the
pointers.  If there's no response on alt.locksmithing, I'll cross-post
a request.  If an FAQ doesn't already exist, I could help create one.

[and BTW, blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) points to the July 
1992 issue of Motorcyclist magazine for a comparison review of m/c alarms.]

I recently went through selecting an alarm - and jumped to a choice
because I felt that getting any decent alarm that fit my needs was more
important than getting the mystical "perfect" alarm.  

Also, I believe that alarms/locks/whatever don't make a vehicle totally
secure - but all I want is a vehicle that is more secure than most of
the other vehicles in the area. (and let natural selection take action.)

An Audiovox TSP 700 was $170 plus $100 for installation (I could have done
it myself, but time is money and the alarm specialist at PB did a good job).

Half of the system cost was the paging function - since I live a few
hundred feet (out of sight) from where I park (on-street), and since my
car has been broken into both at my home and in a parking lot while I
was in a movie theater I felt that paging was useful for some situations.

Car alarms appear to be in the "how much do you want to pay?" category -
you can get a cheap siren-and-voltage-sensor for $40 - the kind that
just wails endlessly - or you can spend many hundreds on the TV-style
'smart car' system that senses motion *near* the car and talks to
passerby.  Around here, my neighbors would likely shoot either of those. :-)

If you have a car worth $50K, or money to burn, or just want to impress
yuppies on the cafe patio, then shop for car alarms at the high-tech
audio or high-performance car places.  Systems are probably a bit
cheaper at car dealers, but the systems you can buy at Walmart or Pep Boys
are probably enough for the rest of us.  At the very least your vehicle
will have more alarm than all the unalarmed cars out there.

Of course, the real budget setup is just a blinking dash-mounted LED and
some alarm company stickers (sold separately).  Bring your own chutzpah.

Another trick is having a slide-out radio - that you pull out of the
dash and put into the glovebox before you park the car.  Dumb, hunh?

A lot of people on the net seem to feel that appearances can deceive.
I used to believe that having an ugly old car would prevent theft.
If you want to depend on that theory, be my guest, I'm done with it.

The rest of this article is details and discussion, this is a good
time to quit if you don't like long articles.


The Pep Boys comparision chart covered 10 models of Audiovox, Whistler,
and Code-Alarm - ranging from $40 to $170.  Features included:

    count    feature
	9    siren
	8    automatic siren shutdown
	8    2 remote transmitters
	8    remote panic

	8    adjustable shock sensor
	8    voltage sensing
	3    glass breakage detector
	1    motion dectector

	8    audible arm/disarm
	6    LED warning
	6    valet switch
	3    starter disable
	2    4 watt pager
	1    silent paging
	1    portable/no-installation

I'm not going to re-create the chart because if you have a Pep Boys in
the neighborhood you can get one yourself, and if you don't you'll have
to roll your own comparision anyway.  If no FAQ exists I'll do a chart.

>The few that were recommended are:
>
>Ungo Box
>VSE Derringer/2
>Viper
>Clifford Intelligaurd 200

I believe these are medium-to-high price systems.

>The features I'm looking for are: Switch protection for Hood, Trunk,
>and doors, ignition kill, remote arm/disarm, sensor "zones" (Where,
>for example, if you have a christmas tree in your trunk and you can't
>shut it, the alarm will still arm and protect the rest of the car),
>a passive or active option and some sort of shock or shatter sensor
>for window breakage and body shock (like jacking up to steal tires,
>etc.).  This sensor should be easily adjustable to avoid false
>alarms by big trucks passing by, thunder, wind and low flying
>aircraft.  I have read about some alarms having the smarts to
>disable a sensor after being tripped a certain number of times. That
>is not super important but would be nice.

No info on zones or smart auto-disable, but here are
some comments on features and capabilities:

general

    The cheaper the system, the less you are able to adjust and tune.
    At the very least, motion and shock sensors should be adjustable
    to minimize false alarms.

siren/automatic siren shutdown

    60 seconds of siren is probably just as effective at 
    attracting attention as any longer period, and it sure 
    helps keep the neighbors happy (timed sirens are also 
    becoming mandatory in some large cities.)

2 remote transmitters

    For remote arm/disarm - second as a spare, or for spouse.
    A black box for your keychain - 2" x 1.25" x 0.5" (5cm x 3cm x 1.3cm)

remote panic

    An easy add-on to the remote circuitry - helps you find your
    car at the mall, and probably more of a self-confidence
    booster than a really useful personal security gadget -
    how many people would react to a car alarm by looking
    around for hundreds of yards for an assault in progress?

Sensors

    Sensors are a big variable - the trade-off points are cost of
    sensor, costs of installation, minimum false alarms, and maximum
    true alarms.  Using a few sensors is probably best - you can cover
    several break-in methods with lower sensitivity settings on each.

pin switches

    Existing dome light switches are usually used for doors, and similar
    pin switches for hood & trunk.  Recall that a major installation
    issue is placing all the parts of the alarm system in areas of the
    vehicle that are secured by the alarm. (To restate the obvious.)

adjustable shock sensor

    Triggered by sharp transients in the frame and body of the vehicle.
    Would detect glass breakage by the shock of the force used to break
    the glass.  Would probably not notice glass breakage by the trick
    with a spring-loaded center-punch I posted on rec.auto last month
    for claustrophobic recent Camry owners.  Whoops. (Until the door opens).

    Instructions with mine say to adjust so that two successive sharp
    slaps with both hands at once at the back bumper of the car trigger
    the sensor.  Also says to mount to firewall or solid equivalent, not
    to fender well or other easily flexible part (would insulate from shock).

ultrasonic sensor

    Emits ultrasonic signals & checks returns - detects masses
    (like people) in a volume of space (like the front seat).
    Would handle securing the passenger space of a convertible.

voltage sensing

    Senses drop in voltage caused by current drain.  Requires bypass
    for electric radiator fans that can come on while car is parked.

motion dectector

    A variation on the classic mercury switch - at least one mfg has one
    that is a tube of mercury surrounded by a coil - senses motion, not
    contact - and said to be very adjustable.

    Good for preventing jacking up, alloy wheel theft, towing, etc.

glass breakage detector

    I don't have specific info - could be glass mounted sensor,
    or could sense high frequencies of breaking glass.  Anybody?

audible arm/disarm

    Makes that annoying chirp you hear more and more often these days.
    I would prefer visual - but audible tells you that the siren works.

LED warning

    LED blinks on dash when system is armed.  Be sure it is visible
    from the curb side - perhaps place atop dash, or near radio?

valet switch

    Allows parking attendant to do job without fanfare.  
    If they don't put your vehicle in a continously attended lot,
    why pay for the risk without the service?

starter disable

    If system is triggered, cuts power to starter relay until system is
    disarmed.

4 watt pager

    Probably not worth it if you have a garage, or rarely park in risky
    areas/situations - unless you want to be able to go see what all the
    fuss is about while there's still some fuss.  You don't have to arm
    and carry the beeper all the time, so you have a choice of level of
    response to a break-in: "make noise" or "make noise & come a-running".

    In the Audiovox, the paging sensor/sender/beeper sub-system is
    clearly an add-on - in fact, you can buy it separately.  The paging
    sensor glues to the siren & senses vibration from the siren
    (which means there is no stock way to have silent paging - boo!)

    The paging sender mounts near the car antenna and uses it to send
    a signal to the beeper (and if you have auto-retracting antennas,
    it will also erect the antenna while paging you).  
    
    I haven't made an exhaustive study of the range - which would vary
    depending on what is in the way - probably okay for the movies & the
    mall, not for half-way across a university campus.  At worst should
    answer the question: "Hey, is that MY car making that awful noise?"

    The beeper is similar in size to a motorola digital beeper -
    3" x 2" x 3/4" (7.5cm x 5xm x 2cm) plus a belt clip.  I wish
    they had built an arm/disarm circuit into the beeper - it is
    a bit of a hassle to carry around 2 little black boxes.

silent paging

    Pages you without siren or alarm.  I'd wish for silent paging 
    on the first trigger, and siren on the second trigger, or if 
    not disarmed for 30 seconds or so after the first trigger.

door-lock interface

    Unlocks electric door-locks upon disarm, which seems like a nice
    convenience, but might be a bad idea in an assault situation.

portable/no-installation

    At least one system plugs into the cigarette lighter, 
    and uses an ultrasonic detector (among others).

manual over-ride (disarm) switch

    If you loose your arm/disarm transmitter, you can unlock,
    enter, and disarm the (sounding) alarm.  Should be hidden.

I'm sure that people will follow-up about any features I've missed.  
(exterior arm/dis-arm locks; 'bait' trigger switches that appear to be
dis-arm overrides but actually trigger the system; hidden dis-arm or
start methods with magnets & reed switches, or switches in series, or
overloaded functions for normal switches) [gosh - starts to sound like Ada].

Also note that systems seem to vary a lot in the small details,
and you could add a lot to a system in a do-it-yourself installation.

Summary (all IMHO):

    No alarm (or any theft deterrent) provides total security.

    Any effective alarm is better than none.
    Any in-effective alarm is worse than none.
    (over or under sensitive, so much hassle that you don't use it, etc.)

    Consider how much your time and energy is worth.
    Consider what your insurance deductibles are.

    Consider the costs of pursuing an insurance claim, of replacing
    stolen items (or car), of repair of entry and dash damage and
    under-dash wiring damage after a midnight radio-ectomy, loss
    of other items, and your reaction to an invasion of your privacy.

    Figure out how much some increased security is worth to you, and
    comparision shop.  

--
Denis  McKeon                            Good.   Fast.   Cheap.
galway@chtm.eece.unm.edu                       Pick two.

From dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com Sat Sep  5 16:37 EDT 1992
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Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 16:37:38 EDT
From: dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com (Erick Dyke)
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To: holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu (Richard Holowczak)
Subject: Re: Car Alarms. Advice Needed
Status: R

Try an Ungo box 5100.  Good stuff, US made, I own two.

Any questions, feel free to ask.

-- 
-------
Erick S. Dyke -- GE Simulation & Control Systems -- Daytona Beach, FL
EMail : dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com
"GE Aerospace -- We make the BEST video games in the world"

From dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com Sat Sep  5 16:53 EDT 1992

I have two 5100s.  You can tell they are the 5100 by the fact that the
remote has only one button.

My first one cost $400 installed with door, trunk and hood pins, ignition kill,
2 remotes, the Ungo patented shock sensor, and a space sensor (It is in
a convertable) and unlocks the doors.

The second cost $417 with door, trunk and hood pins, ignition kill,
2 remotes, the Ungo patented shock sensor, and a sound sensor.  It took a lot
longer to install since it is in a 25th Aniv. Cougar (Lots of leather trim
and stuff.)  They also wired it to the keypad for the keyless entry so if
someone pushes a button it goes off.

Did you get a quote for adding a pager?  My usually cheap shop wants about
$210 per car for the Ungo box pager.  Just wondering so I can try a work
the price here.

-------
Erick S. Dyke -- GE Simulation & Control Systems -- Daytona Beach, FL
EMail : dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com
"GE Aerospace -- We make the BEST video games in the world"


From dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com Tue Sep  8 08:10 EDT 1992
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Subject: Re: Car Alarms. Advice Needed
Status: R

Hmm, sounds a bit high.  My shop is also a high-end dealer, and guaranteed
mine for life.  (A thousand dollars is a heck of a lot to spend...)


From: dyke@sunny.dab.ge.com (Erick Dyke)
To: holowczk@njmsa.umdnj.edu

Nahh, I think that the place I go to is in the right range for the
pagers then ($500 for two cars.)

Well, good luck on your quest.  (Dont take too long, or you might not have
a car by the time your done :-)



From alva@garnet.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 22 19:02 EDT 1992
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From: alva@garnet.berkeley.edu (Vincent Lee)
To: holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu (Richard Holowczak)
Subject: Re: Car Alarms: Help needed!
Organization: U.C. Berkeley
Status: R


> 
> Place 1:	"The Ungo Box Alarm is the best on the market. I don't
>                  sell any others because I have had nothing but problems
>                  with all other brands."
> 
> Place 2:	"The Ungo Box is terrible. We used to sell them but we had
>                  so many problems with them we stopped. The VSE Derringer/2
>                  is the model you want. We also sell the Viper but it is
>                  not as good as the VSE."
> 
> Place 3:	"Given a choice between Ungo Box and VSE I would choose
>                  Clifford Intelligaurd 200. It is the best on the market.
>                  Ask anyone."
> 
> Place 4:	"The Clifford alarm used to be the best but now they have
>                  dropped down in quality. The Viper alarm is the one you want.
>                  It does the job and we have had no problems with them at all."
> 
> Place 5:	Actually a magazine article about 1 year old says: "The
>                 VSE is our choise . . . "
> 
> I am looking for something with door and trunk switches, starter kill,
> shock sensor (reliable) for broken glass and possibly motion sensor if
> the shock sensor is not tripped by jacking up the car. I would also like
> to have an intelligent alarm reset and the ability to lock out a sensor
> if it is being continually tripped.  Zones I think they're called.  
> If I have any pennies
>
>Well, it's a good thing you are posting now. I bought the Ungo 5200. It's a good alarm. most of the alarms you are looking at are good. I personally like the Derringer. The Viper is nice but I don't like the remote. The derringer is good because it has a loud siren. It's got glass sensor standard and it's got other features the UNGO doesn't have like silent arm The Viper can do that as well. If it were me get the Derringer. I like it. Of course it's your personal preference. All of the modules are expanda


nble for door, glass, etc. I put an Autopage on my alarml. That I think is an essential component of the alarm. You need it.

From Vincent@garnet.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 25 16:02 EDT 1992
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Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 13:02:51 -0700
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From: Vincent@garnet.berkeley.edu (Vincent Lee)
To: holowczk@rwja.umdnj.edu (Richard Holowczak)
Subject: Re: Car Alarms: Help needed!
Organization: WSSG Staff
Status: R

> 
> Place 1:	"The Ungo Box Alarm is the best on the market. I don't
>                  sell any others because I have had nothing but problems
>                  with all other brands."
> 
> Place 2:	"The Ungo Box is terrible. We used to sell them but we had
>                  so many problems with them we stopped. The VSE Derringer/2
>                  is the model you want. We also sell the Viper but it is
>                  not as good as the VSE."
> 
> Place 3:	"Given a choice between Ungo Box and VSE I would choose
>                  Clifford Intelligaurd 200. It is the best on the market.
>                  Ask anyone."
> 
> Place 4:	"The Clifford alarm used to be the best but now they have
>                  dropped down in quality. The Viper alarm is the one you want.
>                  It does the job and we have had no problems with them at all."
> 
> Place 5:	Actually a magazine article about 1 year old says: "The
>                 VSE is our choise . . . "
> 
Well, I've just read the mail from a gentlemen who told you to install the
Viper or Hornet. these are all agood alarms that you are looking at. I have
an UNGO 5200 in my integra. However, when I was looking at alarms I was
lookig at price as well. I installed mine for $239. That was the best deak
and still is but it was done as a favor for me. If I'd do it all over again
I'd get the Derringer or the Viper. I like the viper for several reasons:
It's silent arm, distinctive siren, light flashing etc. I don't like the
remote. It feels and looks cheap. One of the things I like about my ungo is
the remote. Very ergonomically designed. The Derringer I feel is the best
of the lot. Get it if you can afford it. All these alarms have shock,
motion, and starter kill. The Derringer gives you glass sensor standard.
This is a good feature because a thief can overirde the alarm by drillik or
prying into the glass without shatterring it so he sets off the shock
sensor. This is a good feature because the glass sensor will pick up the
sound of metal against the window automatically. The Derringer I feel is
more adavanced than the other ones. It's got great expandability, some of
the shit you waon't need but if you want it you can do it. What I liked
abut it was that it tells you what zones wer tripped if the car was
tampered or not. Great feature. The siren is real loud as well. The only
problem I've heard is the problem with the remote. It's too small. An auto
installer told me that he stopped carrying Derringers because when he was
installing 3 derringers in hsi shop the remotes wouldn't work because each
one would interfere with each other. Sio I hope this helped , my suggestion
is get the Derringer. Spend the extra money you'll be happy with it. But if
you can afford the Viper or the UNGO get those. They are excellent units as
well. One thing. When you do get the alarm get an Autopage as well. It's a
small pager that let's you know if the alarm was tripped. Remember nobody
cares about your car except you.