HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant)
Subject: Re: Single Apps vs. Ensembles (Future of GEOS, revisited)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:12:19 GMT

From article <Sep.13.16.26.34.1992.2575@pilot.njin.net>, by birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag):
> mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant) writes:
> 
>>But for my money, I'd rather have a single app that meets my needs
>>than an "ensemble" of things that don't.  That's irrelevant to the
>>theory of why GEOS is what it is, but it's very relevant to the fact
>>that I personally don't want GEOS.
> 
> This again touches on what I believe will be a very major turning point in 
> the existence of GEOS.  Geoworks [and Berkeley Softworks before it] is *not*
> really an application development company, in my opinion.  They have for
> some years specialized in creating low-overhead, high-performance graphical
> environment operating systems [hence GEOS] for various platforms...
> ...  That, in my opinion, makes them an operating systems vendor.

I once read a definition of an operating system that listed all the
things a system had to have to be an OS.  One of these was a compiler:
that is, a development kit, an application development capability.
GEOS apparently didn't have that component for a long time.

> .... when v2.0 comes out and we've suddenly got third-party apps
> from a hundred developers or so, it's not going to be just another packaged
> deal.  Anyone who's been thinking of GEOS as a "closed" environment - like
> one of the Works packages, which isn't going to get any new things added - 
> is going to be in for a major "Toto, I don't think we're in Kanasa anymore."

No doubt true.  But unless GEOS tries what Windows dared, it can't
compete, as far as I'm concerned.  That is, it has to be compatible
with concurrent DOS apps.  Is that in v2.0?  Of course, that's going
beyond being an OS, and trying to emulate another OS.  But's that what
users need today.

							Marty
marty@hoqaa.att.com		hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant		(Winnertech Corporation)
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 92 23:28:00 +0200
From: Rudi_Ferrari@con.fido.de (Rudi Ferrari)
Subject: Yay!  I got the "goodies" disk from Rudi!
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
X-Comment-To: pat@berry.Cary.NC.US (Pat Berry)
Organization: Magic Point of C.O.N. Project Cologne  *FRG* 


 > Of course, it's a little inconvenient for you to dial up PKWare from
 > Germany.  But if you register PKZip, they'll send you a trojan-free copy
 > on disk.

Ok. But until now, there is still (by what I know) nothing official of
the PKZIP 1.98 (or something like that). There are only ALFA version
at this moment, and this already a few months.
And this new version exists already as several trojans everywhere.
Ok, I could have the correct version directly from PKWare, but as long
the new version is not released???
Arj is much better in packing and speed as PKZip 1.1, so I decided for
arj. (I played around with both, also with that ALFA Version of PKzip.
And this ALFA version didn`t work fine)

 > Besides, how do you know ARJ hasn't been trojan-horsed?

Probably there are trojan-horsed ARJ archiver, but I could order the
official version with key and security envelope here in Germany.
Maybe, if PKWare release their new verion official, I will see for
the security packet for PKZIP, but until then, I have to do it with
ARJ.

But this become OFFTOPIC now, for further discussions, please write
me a (NET)Mail.

see `ya
      ____
Lambo/Rudi                     >>> internet: Rudi_Ferrari@con.fido.de <<<
~~~~~

---
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 92 17:45:00 +0200
From: Rudi_Ferrari@con.fido.de (Rudi Ferrari)
Subject: Is Launchmaker useful for anything?
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
X-Comment-To: jeff@eng.umd.edu (Jeffrey Frey)
Organization: Magic Point of C.O.N. Project Cologne  *FRG* 


Hi Jeff!

 > In short, other than saving me going to the DOS programs screen rather
 > than GeoManager, does LaunchMaker do anything useful?

In fact you are right.
I find it useful, cause now, in Welcome only the professional room exist
(I `ve set the other off). So I don`t have to leave the professional room,
to launch my dosprograms I want. I can start them directly from the
World directory (like the other applications) and I can start them
from within the startup menu.
It just saves me some clicks around.
Oh yes, and I can give them any icom I want ;-)

It is useful, but you can live without it :-)

see `ya
      ____
Lambo/Rudi
~~~~~

---
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
From: johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU (John D. Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Annoying problem with Lights Out
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:39:28 GMT

In article <tjcall.716135900@epx.cis.umn.edu> tjcall@epx.cis.umn.edu (Thom) writes:
>I had the same problem but under different circumstances.  I am
>using Geoworks Pro.  If I remember correctly, the problem occurred
>when I double clicked (instead of single clicking) on the "ok"
>(whatever it's labelled) button in the Lights Out window.  Whenever
>I when back to that window, the hourglass was the mouse pointer.
>I reported the problem to John Mitchell.  I never got a response
>back.  (Which brings up the question John, what is the best way
>to report problems?  Is there another more generic e-mail user 
>name to use?)  I also asked if when you minimized the Lights Out
>window, couldn't the name just appear on the Express Menu rather
>than the icon displaying on the screen.  This would be the same
>thing that happens with the clock application.

Problems/bugs/defects/etc. reports should be posted on America On-Line
(AOL) as that is GeoWorks official on-line support forum.  Of course, you
can also call GeoWorks Customer Service (or your local
republisher/distributor if your not in the USA :-).  I've forwarded a good
number of problems that have been brought up in this newsgroup but I don't
have all that much time to spend following up on these things because I'm
busy working on v2.0.  :-)

Regarding the Lights Out problem, I've passed it on to the screen saver
guru...  :-)

Regarding new feature requests, the best place for voicing your desires and
having GeoWorks hear them, is (you guessed it :-) on AOL.

Thanks,
	John
	johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU

P.S.	I speak for my self.  GeoWorks speaks for itself.
From: birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Re: What type of multitasking is Geos?
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:55:43 GMT
Organization: Screaming in Digital, the Queensryche Net Digest

shadow@r-node.gts.org (Jay Chu) writes:

>What type of multitasking is Geos?  Pre-emptive?  Non-pre-emptive?

GEOS is a pre-emptive multitasking, multithreading object-oriented OS.

-sh
-- 

     Freedom belongs to only those without video screens for eyes and mouth.
		- Queensryche
From: birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Single Apps vs. Ensembles (Future of GEOS, revisited)
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:26:35 GMT
Organization: Screaming in Digital, the Queensryche Net Digest

mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant) writes:

>But for my money, I'd rather have a single app that meets my needs
>than an "ensemble" of things that don't.  That's irrelevant to the
>theory of why GEOS is what it is, but it's very relevant to the fact
>that I personally don't want GEOS.

This again touches on what I believe will be a very major turning point in 
the existence of GEOS.  Geoworks [and Berkeley Softworks before it] is *not*
really an application development company, in my opinion.  They have for
some years specialized in creating low-overhead, high-performance graphical
environment operating systems [hence GEOS] for various platforms. [C-64, C-128,
Apple II, PC].  That, in my opinion, makes them an operating systems vendor.

The catch, of course, is that you can't just pop up with an operating system
if no one's going to support it.  If you look at other platforms and operating
systems, it becomes painfully apparent.  Unix has taken forever to catch on,
because for a long time, hardly any applications were available for it.  DOS
didn't take long, since IBM can say "hey, develop for this" and people will.
Windows took a while to really get rolling, since there wasn't a lot of app
support right off.  OS/2 is just beginning to pick up speed now.

Not being one of the "giants," GEOS couldn't exactly order the entire market
around, so far as development went.  So, as they did with the 8-bit GEOSes, 
Geoworks developed a few apps, and presented it all [deceptive people they
are] as a packaged ensemble.  As such, it competes with 8-in-1, LotusWorks,
Microsoft Works, and all those.

What they didn't tell us then [and what a lot of people just don't seem to
grasp] is that when v2.0 comes out and we've suddenly got third-party apps
from a hundred developers or so, it's not going to be just another packaged
deal.  Anyone who's been thinking of GEOS as a "closed" environment - like
one of the Works packages, which isn't going to get any new things added - 
is going to be in for a major "Toto, I don't think we're in Kanasa anymore."

For now, I think it's a safe idea to think of GEOS as _basically_ a packaged
environment, since there just aren't a whole lot of apps out there.  The fact
that it's got a different OS underneath, and isn't behaving like a "normal"
DOS package, is nice, since it does seem to make it more efficient.  But, out
in California, there are probably some software engineers having the nervous
fits over what's going to happen when GEOS suddenly _stops_ competing with 
the integrated packages, and turns into a "real" operating system with third
party support.

Incidentally, I hope there are nervous people in Armonk and Redmond, too. ;)

-Shag
-- 

     Freedom belongs to only those without video screens for eyes and mouth.
		- Queensryche
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
From: johnlee@crash.cts.com (John Wiley)
Subject: Future of GeoWorks
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 04 Sep 92 14:56:54 PDT


I'm interested in your ideas on the following (my comments indented):
     There has been much discussion here about what capabilities GW needs.
     GW CEO Brian Dougherty sees a need for inexpensive products, which
     are easy to learn and use.  Steve Jobs identified a similar need for
     his first Apple computer, which served a market then ignored by IBM.
     Perhaps history is repeating itself.
 
     Following are some relevant excerpts from computer trade magazines
     (quoted without permission):
 
 
*Info World 8/24/92, pg.29
"Vadem will introduce this week a single-chip PC engine designed to
allow manufacturers to create hand-held, DOS-based computers for less
than $500. 
...
"...DOS application developers will provide ROM-based versions of their
software to run on the systems, with a new class of software emerging
specifically for the hand-held market.  Vadem is negotiating with
GeoWorks to include the Pen-Geos operating system on pen-based devices
using the VG-230 chip ... competes with Chips & Technologies Inc.'s
PC/Chip, but runs faster, at 16 MHz.  It also has built-in support for
pen and keyboard input, unlike PC/Chip."
 
     The article mentions ink support for faster pen input, and on-chip
     LCD video support.  Devices built with the chip are predicted to
     appear next year.
 
 
*PC Week 8/17/92, pg.51
"After failing to persuade major PC manufacturers to offer DR DOS,
Novell Inc. hopes to lure them - and consumer electronics vendors - to
a new offering aimed at portable and handheld computers.  Netware
PalmDOS 1.0 is a compact version of DR DOS with a built-in NetWare
client. ...runs entirely in ROM. ...runs all DOS applications. ...said
they are getting interest primarily from Asian hardware manufacturers.
... Despite the lack of OEM support for DR DOS, analyst William
Bluestein said that by being targeted at the computers he refers to as
'PC mutants,' PalmDOS could be more readily accepted despite its lack
of a Microsoft label.  'This market is wide open,' said Bluestein, of
market-research firm Forrester Research..."
 
     The article claims that the portable computing marketplace is one
     in which OS vendors can effectively compete with Microsoft.
 
"Both GRID Systems Corp. and GeoWorks Inc. have a considerable presence
in this market, he noted.  Even Tandy Corp., which works closely with
Microsoft on areas such as multimedia, has decided to use GeoWorks for
a small computer it is developing."
 
 
*PC Magazine 6/30/92, pg.93
[Microsoft is] "at the mercy of a skittish retail machine...  Retailers
are also fad-oriented, and some unknown entity might come along, like
GeoWorks, and become the rage overnight."
 
 
     A small golden Apple rolled unnoticed past the eye of giant IBM a
     decade back, until Big Blue got "Personal."  Perhaps a little gem
     from Shattuck Ave. will perform a similar downsizing feat, by
     personalizing low-end desktop and hand-held computers.
 
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
From: dtaylor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Douglas A Taylor)
Subject: What is an OS? (was Re: Shutting down Geocomm}
Reply-To: doug-taylor+@osu.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:31:18 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.230344.24073@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant) writes:
>Maybe we need to meet in the middle.  An app is anything that can be
>loaded by an OS.  An OS is anything that can load an app.  Therefore
>GEOS is an app to DOS, but an OS to its own apps.  OK?

Feh.  I think you need to go back to school and learn about OS's.
The definition you give here leaves much to be desired.  For example,
a guy down the hall from me can load OS/2 from a DOS prompt.  Does
this make OS/2 a DOS app?  Hardly.

Every definition I've ever seen of an operating system indicates that
it is software that manages the computer's resources -- memory, CPU
time, disk space, printers, etc., and provides those services to other
programs, called applications.  DOS does this to a very minimal
degree, forcing most DOS apps to bypass the operating system in order
to get anything done.  (Actually, I've heard it said that DOS isn't
really an OS, just a program launcher, but that's another argument.
:-)

PC/GEOS is much better at providing resource management services to
its apps than DOS is.  As Shag has said repeatedly, the only resource
it doesn't manage without any help from DOS is the file system.  (I
assume the reason for this is so that I won't have to make a special
GEOS partition on my hard disk, but I really don't know.)  In my book,
that's enough to qualify it as an operating system.  I know it manages
my computer's resources better than DOS ever did!
-- 
   Doug Taylor                         |   Nothing real can be threatened.
   The Ohio State University           |   Nothing unreal exists.
   doug-taylor+@osu.edu                |            - A Course in Miracles
From: tyen@cs.utexas.edu (Anthony Yen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: TECH:  Help Subsystem
Date: 14 Sep 1992 00:22:42 -0500
Organization: Coffee R Us
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ai.cs.utexas.edu


There was some previous discussion of a help system.  Glancing
through the Concepts/1 of the SDK, there is mention made of a
sort of Help class.  There does not seem to be a sample imple-
mentation given in terms of a pointer to something in the currently
shipping GeoWorks Pro.

If anyone has any idea of how this works, please let us know.  I'm
currently behind on my reading of the human interface area, and
don't know if System 7-like balloon help or OpenWindows-like
popup help is considered passe now.  I have some nits to pick
with both of those help styles, but could live with them as long
as hooks are provided for context sensitive help of some sort.


-- 
 ____     tyen@cs.utexas.edu.....Kowabunga!...
  /ony -- Claimer: Views expressed here == mine && only mine.  Sail tough.
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Re: Shutting down Geocomm - WHY????
From: CHEESE%ETDAI2.decnet@etd88a.mdc.com (CHEESE B-})
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:30:25 GMT

From: mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Shutting down Geocomm
Message-Id: <1992Sep11.033142.20983@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Date: 11 Sep 92 03:31:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I am not enthusiastic about Geoworks.

One of the first things I did with it was set up GeoComm instead of my
usual terminal emulator, dial up a remote system, and look for files
to download.  Having found one, I decided I ought to jump to DOS to
see whether I already had it in any directory on any of my three hard
drives, or cataloged on a floppy disk.  Cheerfully I expressed to the
Welcome screen, picked Dos Programs, hit the Enter DOS button, and in
utter dismay watched Geos shut down and hang up my connection to the
remote system.

If that's the way it's supposed to work, I don't want it.

							Marty
marty@hoqaa.att.com		hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant		(Winnertech Corporation)	
*----- End of Attached Message -----*

Marty,

Why did you jump to DOS to check your files?  GeoManager is by definition a
file system manager.  The way it's suppposed to work is that you resize the
GeoComm screen or jump directly to the GeoManager screen using the Express
menu.  At that point you can use the A: B: C: buttons to pull up whatever
directory you feel is needed.  There are multiple views of directories and due
to the multi-tasking nature of GWE, I have on occasion watched a file fill up
during a download.  I only have one hard drive but am reasonably certain that
GeoManager can address all the drives you have installed (John M. can correct
me if I'm wrong on this point).  Try this next time so you don't break your
GeoComm connection.  

Have a Day!

Chee Woo Leong	America Online : Echthelion (@aol.com)
		Internet : cheese%etdai2.decnet@etd88a.mdc.com 
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
|  New Comment in Work - Stay Tuned to this Spot                             |
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
From: mbb@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.brilliant)
Subject: Re: Shutting down Geocomm
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:27:15 GMT

I think the following dialogue supports my guess that when GeoComm is
running, GeoWorks will swap out if (and only if) you use the download
button on the TaskMax interface:

From article <MHIRSCH.92Sep15114246@algorithms.princeton.edu>, by mhirsch@algorithms.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch):
>>>>>> On 14 Sep 92 18:17:53 GMT, birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag) said:
> 
> Shag> mhirsch@algorithms.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch) writes:
> 
>>But you can't use the TaskMAX swapper while your modem is active.  At
>>least, I can't.  When I try it tells me that my com port is active....
> 
> Shag> I don't know if what you're doing is the same as what I'm doing...
> 
> I haven't tried that exactly, I  just try to swap to a dos job
> (generally command).

Michael does NOT use the download button.

> Shag> As I've mentioned tons of times, I've got DTR recognition turned
> Shag> off on my modem.  
> 
> Yeah, I've tried that, I think.  That's AT &D0, right?  ....

And they've both got the modem not recognizing DTR.

> ....  The problem
> isn't with my modem hanging up, but that DRDOS won't let me swap cause
> my COM port is busy.  It doesn't give me that error when DRDOS swaps
> out my DOS Comm job, so it must have something to do with an
> interaction between geoworks and drdos.

That was what I thought.  They interact in that download button.  But
nobody will believe me because I don't like GeoWorks.  :-)

Actually, it must be GeoWorks that won't allow the swap, not DR-DOS,
because I don't have DR-DOS, and I got the same message when I tried
to swap out using the task swapper in MS-DOS 5.0.

							Marty
marty@hoqaa.att.com		hoqaa!marty
Martin B. Brilliant		(Winnertech Corporation)
From: birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Sound support under v2.0??
Date: 5 Sep 92 02:46:18 GMT
Organization: Screaming in Digital, the Queensryche Net Digest

Anyone have any theories on whether v2.0 will/might/should include...

	* support for playing digital [mac] sounds through the speaker
	* support for playing digital [mac/voc] sounds on a SoundBlaster
	* support for playing musical sounds [non-voice] on an AdLib

The only thing I really like about Macs over my GEOS-equipped PC is that they
make cute little noises.  :)

If GEOS had more sound abilities [the "sound" part of Preferences is, after 
all, pretty sparse] then my computer could make those noises. 

[It already says "What IS it, man?" in the voice of Ren [from Ren&Stimpy] 
right after it displays the "Loading GEOS" message...]

-Shag 
-- 

     Freedom belongs to only those without video screens for eyes and mouth.
		- Queensryche
From: birchall@pilot.njin.net (Shag)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: GUI/character-based app size (was Re: Shutting down Geocomm)
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:05:38 GMT
Organization: Screaming in Digital, the Queensryche Net Digest

mamason@mbunix.mitre.org (Mason) writes:

>I'm really not knocking any of the other GUI's btw, I'm merely
>pointing out that a Graphical User Interface is by it's nature going
>to use up more space than comparable character-based applications.

Actually, most of the Geos _applications_ are considerably smaller than their
DOS-based contemporaries, from what I've seen.  For example, GeoWrite is 72k.
How many DOS-based [or _anything_-based] WYSIWYG word processors are smaller
than that?  Solitaire and Tetris are both under 25k, also. 

Of course, if DOS programs were coded in assembler, they'd probably be a lot
smaller too.

Come to think of it... I seem to recall DOS itself coming on more disks than
GEOS...

-Shag
-- 

     Freedom belongs to only those without video screens for eyes and mouth.
		- Queensryche
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
From: batchelor@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dave Batchelor, NSSDC, 301-286-2988)
Subject: Clock
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  clock
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:01:00 GMT

Jay Chu (shadow@r-node.gts.org) wrote:

> With all the good stuff Geos has, how come it doesn't have a clock?

It is very easy to have an on-screen clock with PC/GEOS.  The time is 
displayed at the top of the GeoPlanner window.  Just leave a 
GeoPlanner window open, with its top peeping over above all of the 
other windows on your screen.  The time is updated to stay current.
(If you want to handle the file My Schedule, you may have to close it 
and leave the GeoPlanner window open with No File)

])ave

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dave Batchelor   Space Science Data Operations Office   Mail Code 632
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center  Greenbelt  MD  20771  USA
batchelor@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
From: eclipse@netcom.com (Brian McCullough)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos
Subject: Pun re GWE 2.0
Date: 9 Sep 92 09:45:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


... Ever get the feeling you're waiting for Geodot?



-- 
Brian C. McCullough                                eclipse@netcom.com
Opinions ventured here are those of myself only.

"No tangled skein of stars can ward, I trow,
Who first hath set his tryst with Tristero."  (from memory; apologies to
M. Pynchon if it is misworded)
Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.pcgeos