HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kbest@doc.novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Thanks!
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:41:17 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1992Aug26.052532.16588@midway.uchicago.edu> gc14@ellis.uchicago.edu  
(Grace Putao Chang) writes:
> I'd just like to thanks all those who replied to my question, I got a lot of
> solid info.  I'd also like to apologize if any toes were stepped on in the
> ensuing discussions of Mormonism - That wasn't my purpose!!!

I've got big feet. I'm used to having my toes stepped on. :-}

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@npd.novell.com                  -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:43:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.mythology
Organization: NASA/GSFC

In article <1992Aug24.41719.3619@ms.uky.edu>, bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth
Gilliam) wrote:
> 
> I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
> for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
> movement in Germany after World War I.
> 
> I would appreciate any references to books, magazines, or
> just stuff you read somewhere.
> -- 
> elizabeth a. gilliam: bee@ms.uky.edu
> If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Of course, the first work you should consult would be Jacob Grimm's
"Deutsche Mythologie", available in an English translation from (I think,
but may be wrong) Dover press.
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1703 rec.games.frp.misc:4427 rec.arts.sf.misc:2683
From: broitman@buchmf.bu.edu (Jeff Broitman)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:49:41 GMT
Followup-To: alt.mythology
Organization: Boston University Chemistry Department

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
>Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
>the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
>Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
>point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.

Have you tried  _Faries_ by Lion Rampant for the Ars-Magica FRPG.  This goes
into some depth of the Sidhe (not sure I'm pronouncing it correctly either).

-Jeff

********************
broitman@chem.bu.edu
********************

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: kbest@doc.novell.com (Karl Best)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Organization: Novell, Inc.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:32:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.41719.3619@ms.uky.edu> bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam)  
writes:
> I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
> for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
> movement in Germany after World War I.
> 
> I would appreciate any references to books, magazines, or
> just stuff you read somewhere.
> -- 
> elizabeth a. gilliam: bee@ms.uky.edu
> If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

See the last issue of Archaeology magazine for an article on the Nazi's  
creative interpretation of Germanic myth and archaeology to build up national  
pride between the wars.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@npd.novell.com                  -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1731 rec.games.frp.misc:4614 rec.arts.sf.misc:2738
From: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:22:19 GMT
Reply-To: dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann)
Followup-To: alt.mythology
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona

In article <1992Aug28.172701.22567@alw.nih.gov>, singley@helix (Erick D. Singley) writes:
>Ah, you see (as I reciently have) whe I go into my VI editor, and don't leave
>a space between the 
>
>"Distribution: usa
>Organization: (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD)
>Keywords:"
>
> and anything else I write, my first paragraph evaporates.
>
>So I don't do that anymore ;-)
>
>Sorry for the wierdness.
>Erick

You know, if you don't feed your Line-Eater, it'll get hungry and go
looking for eats on your news feed.  Better cat a couple of nice big
files (/etc/hosts, gnuemacs, etc) to /dev/null before it gets really
hungry!

Ever post an article, or send some mail, and just have it disappear?
This was no glitch in the code.  It was a hungry Line Eater on the
prowl!  See, as most people know, Un*x isn't really practical unless
it's  operating in the presence of the manna given off by a well-fed
Line Eater.

(why do you think they call it comp.unix.wizards?)
                                         ^^^^^^^

-- 
Dave Schaumann			dave@cs.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.games.frp.misc
From: droe@cs.tcd.ie (David Roe)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin (Astrobiology)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:23:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.210939.24798@unislc.uucp> stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer) writes:
>Matthew D. Goldman (goldman@orac.CRAY.COM) wrote:
>: In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
>: >Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
>: >the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
>: >Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
>: >point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.
>: 
	Surprisingly, nobody on this thread mentioned Lyonesse, I, II,
and III. I think its the second book that has most information on the
Celtic faerie types of the land, but all three are rich in reworkings of
celtic myth and legend and have an excellent sylvan "feel"
>: 
>: >Oh, just for the record, exactly what is the correct pronounciation of "Sidhe"?
>: 
>: I think it is spoken as "She".

	On this, I think we've seen as many pronouncements as posters on
this thread, and I suspect there is no "correct" pronounciation.
However, my tuppence is that if you are pronouncing the word "Sidhe"
(note lack of accents or "fadas") then this would be pronounced "She-huh"
with the "huh" as the "he" in "heard". This would also be correct for
"Sithe"  which spelling  looks a bit dubious from an Irish-language point of
view. Id be inclined to use the first spelling over the second, and
either over the terrible "Si" (with fada) which smacks of
standardisation and tampering. The point of all this is that, if you're
looking for true authentic spelling then the english alphabet just doesnt
cut it, you may have to go back to earlier writings.

	Dave "Yes I did pass Irish in my final exams" Roe
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: (Celtic myths)
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:44:31 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1992Sep3.231942.25371@ichips.intel.com> smintz@sedona.intel.com (Stephen Mintz exp 11/92~) writes:
>
>Morrighu was goddess of War, I believe, and Brigid was goddess of love and
>death...
>Stephen

When speaking about the Celts, is it really accurate to say
XYZ was god/des of xyz ?  I thought they didn't really have this sort
of neat 1 to 1 mapping.  

Would anyone more knowledgeable care to comment ?

Alison
From: rlwinter@rosarita.engr.ucdavis.edu (Richard Lee Winterstein)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: What languages do you know?
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:43:08 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering - University of California - Davis


  I am curious to know what different languages people in this group
understand, particularly as used in the reading of mythology.  To avoid
numerous postings, I am requesting information be e-mailed to me, from
which I can compile the results to post later.  I would also appreciate
it if you can indcate your 'level of fluency', according to the following
numerical code:

  0 - no or limited knowledge (e.g., familiar with a few Chinese characters,
      but no real reading ability).  Obviously, do not send any '0'-class
      responses!
  1 - basic knowledge of introductory grammar, limited vocabulary.  At this
      stage, you would be unable to efficiently read most original works but
      can appreciate the use of, say, an interlinear translation or possibly
      facing translation.
  2 - good knowledge of grammar, working vocabulary.  Capable of reading most
      original documents with good degree of accuracy, but still benefit from
      an available translation.
  3 - fluent or near-fluent.  Most people would regard their ability with
      their native tongue as being at this level (whether or not they are
      aware of the precise rules of grammar).
  4 - excellent knowledge--familiar with dialectical variations, advanced
      knowledge of syntax and vocabulary.  At this level one could capably
      teach the language (assuming 'average' level of pedagogical ability!)

  This is an informal poll, so please keep things as simple as possible;
something like 'Latin - 3', for example.  Please round your proficiency to
the nearest whole number, if you feel you rate an intermediate value (i.e.,
if you would regard your ability in German as somewhere between 2 or 3, try
and choose one rather than something like '2.7').  Although I realize the
international nature of USENET, please use the most commonly recognized English
name for the language, e.g. 'Welsh' instead of, say, 'Cymric'.  Also, it would
be of assistance if you identify extremely rare languages by a short 
explanatory remark.  
  I will accept responses until the level of response begins to trail off; say
until next week?  Then I will post statistics summarizing the results.
  Apart from all this, follow whatever 'rules' you wish.  Thank you very much!

Rick
From: melchert@visual.spk.wa.us (john melchert)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Joining newsgroups.
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:08:28 GMT
Organization: Visual Market Public Access Usenet Site

Please leave me a memo regarding what I need to do to join and read
newsgroups.  Thanks.     -- John Melchert
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message are those of an
	      individual at SRI International, and do not necessarily
	      reflect those of the company.
Reply-To: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:53:15 GMT

Ancient Germanic myths:

Beowulf - okay, Danish/Swedish (Geatish) in origin, and written in England,
but still very much part of the Aryan tradition.

Parzival - the German addition to the Arthurian cycle.

Sigfreid - THE Germanic hero tale.
From: lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: TEST: PLEASE IGNORE
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:23:51 GMT



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Status: R

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
Connected to ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU:
>>> RCPT To:<alt-folklore-mythology@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>
<<< 550 <alt-folklore-mythology@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>... User unknown
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From: lpb@stratus.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas)
Message-Id: <9209042059.AA15227@echidna.swdc.stratus.com>
To: alt-folklore-mythology@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
Subject: Testing

This is a test..please ignore
Len


----- End Included Message -----

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: paul@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Paul Boehm)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Reply-To: paul@cs.tu-berlin.de
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:50:55 GMT

bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam) writes:

>I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
>for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
>movement in Germany after World War I.

Basically all Anglo-Saxon, Swedish, Icelandic, Danish, and Norwegian
ancient myths are Germanic. You should try to get a translation of the
Icelandic "Edda". That's one of the standard references to ancient
Germanic poetry.  Then don't forget the "Nibelungenlied".

Are you interested in the last days and defeat of the Ostrogoths and
the Vandals? Or in Tacitus' accounts? There are nice Latin books
available.

P Boehm 

Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: cc@cs.wm.edu (Chris Michael)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Organization: The College of William and Mary
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:58:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.41719.3619@ms.uky.edu> bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam) writes:
>I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
>for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
>movement in Germany after World War I.

	I just picked up a book called _Meisterbuch Deutscher
Goetter- und Heldensagen_ by Gustav Schalk. It's pedagogical
and I dunno if there's an English translation, but I thought
I'd mention it because it's from 1921 and it seems to have a
noticable nationalistic tone, from what i've read so far....

	-cc


Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:57:57 GMT

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
>Oh, just for the record, exactly what is the correct pronounciation of "Sidhe"?

It is pronounced 'Shee,' roughly.

And the correct spelling is 'Si' (with a "'" accent on the `i'):  Irish
Gaelic, at least, went through a reformation a couple of decades ago, and a
lot of the spellings were cleaned up.

-- 
Sean Eric Fagan  | "You can't get lost in one room, no matter how
sef@kithrup.COM  |  little effort you make to learn your way around."
-----------------+    -- William E Davidsen (william@crd.GE.COM)
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam)
Subject: ancient germanic myths
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 08:17:19 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
movement in Germany after World War I.

I would appreciate any references to books, magazines, or
just stuff you read somewhere.
-- 
elizabeth a. gilliam: bee@ms.uky.edu
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1705 rec.games.frp.misc:4436 rec.arts.sf.misc:2685
From: sprackle@rel8.ncsa.uiuc.edu (David Spracklen)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:40:09 GMT
Organization: ncsa

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu>, bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
|> Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
|> the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
|> Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
|> point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.
|> 
|> Oh, just for the record, exactly what is the correct pronounciation of "Sidhe"?
|> 
|> Thanks for any help.


Sidhe is pronounced 'she.'
I have been picking up the legends as I go.  Tom Deitz has a series
out set in Georgia; it involves a boy discovering the Sidhe.  There are several
books in this series -- "Windmaster's Bane"  "Fireshaper's Doom" "Sunshaker's War"
and "Darkthunder's Way" -- in order.

Dave
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Bahamut the Dragon
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 04:02:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <1992Sep2.214741.20181@muddcs.claremont.edu>, jpark@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jae H. Park) writes:
>   Hello there, I was wondering if anyone could provide me with some 
>   detailed information about the dragon Bahamut( origins, references, etc..)
>   The name sounds Sumerian/Babylonian, but I've never found out for sure.
>   In fact, the most detailed description so far has been from D&D's
>   "Dragon Manual"! I would like some REAL information.
>  
>                                                   Thank you in advance.

Actually, I have *never* heard the name outside a D&D context, and have always
suspected it to be a stylization of "Baphomet." I am curious as to where *you*
have encountered Bahamut!

--Semhaza
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Friday, 28 Aug 1992 16:46:40 MST
From: <IDJDE@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Recommended books?
Distribution: na

with respect to classical scholarship, i would like to recommend the works of
one of the greatest scholars of the twentieth century, namely, karl kerenyi.
he is of hungarian origin, and most of his books have been translated from the
german originals into english, the principal works of which are as follows:
1.the gods of the greeks
2.the heroes of the greeks
3.dionysus
4.zeus and hera
5.asklepios
6.prometheus
7.prolegomena--(with carl jung)--to essays on a science of mythology
8.hermes
9.apollo
10.athene
these are excellent books, some of which are unfortunately out of print, but
they can easily be obtained from your campus library. some of them, however,
such as the gods of the greeks, and the prolegomena are available in just about
any decent bookstore. also, for anyone interested, his correspondence with
thomas mann is very good. (in fact, for anyone interested in the relevance
of myth to modern life at all, i would highly recommend thomas mann's two
great masterpieces, the magic mountain, and joseph and his brothers.)
---jde, mesa az
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: culley@sc.intel.com (robert culley)
Subject: The Burning Man
Organization: Intel Corp.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:23:31 GMT

  As someone who's about to go out in a desert and burn a giant man made of wood,
I thought I'd ask what alt.mythology can tell me about  traditions  connected with
this activity. I've heard of three, apparently independent traditions, which do this:
(1) the relatively uninteresting secular tradition of burning political figures 
 "in effigy"
(2) the Hindu celebration Dussehra, in which the Burning Man represents
Ravana, who had kidnapped Rama's wife, Sita. Burning Ravana symbolizes
Rama's defeat of Ravana, and more broadly the triumph of Good over Evil.
(3) a Celtic tradition depicted in a movie, "The Wicker Man".  In the film,
a human sacrifice is caged within the Wicker Man before he's lit. I don't
trust a 'film adaption' of a ritual very much, so who knows what the
Celts really did? What did it  mean ?

Anything to add?

Bob Culley
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:05:49 GMT

In article <BtLE5t.7Ar@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> cpshelle@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (cameron shelley) writes:
>bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam) writes:
>> I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
>> for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
>> movement in Germany after World War I.
>
>If you're really interested in the nationalist perception of Germanic
>myth in Germany at that time, perhaps you should start with the
>romantic revisionists of the previous century.  Say, for example,
>Wagner and the brothers Grimm.

If you want a more accurate English translation of the Grimms' Tales (and by
accurate, I mean not "sanitized" by the translator), I recommend the one made
by Ralph Manheim.  It is titled, "Grimms' Tales For Young And Old".

For the purposes of review/comparison, look at his translation of tale 117,
"The Naughty Child":

"Once there was a naughty child who didn't do what his mother told him.  God
was displeased with him and made him fall sick.  No doctor could help him and
soon he lay on his deathbed.  After he was lowered into the grave and covered
over with earth, his arm suddenly came out and stood upright.  They pushed it
down and shoveled fresh earth over it, but that didn't help; it kept coming
out again.  The child's mother had to go to the grave and whip the arm with a
switch.  When she had done that, the child pulled in his arm and at last he
had peace under the ground."

I compared this with another translation on the shelf of the bookstore, which
had the child being female, and used passive tense in the second sentence,
i.e. God let the child fall sick.  After that, I stopped comparison, since it
was obvious which version had been toned down.  The competing version was much
milder in tone, which really didn't make sense for such a grisly cautionary
tale.  After all, the tales are sprinkled liberally with accounts of death and
dismemberment.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: kgroves@cix.compulink.co.uk (Kevin Groves)
Subject: No subject 
Reply-To: kgroves@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:28:02 +0000

Hello. Anyone out there know anything about Selket the Egyptain
scorpion goddess?

Any details would be greatfully received also any good books about
her as well.

Thanks,

Kev,
--
Kevin The Gerbil strikes again... :-)

*****************************

Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:35:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.180940.22783@alw.nih.gov>, postman@alw.nih.gov (AMDS Postmaster) writes...
>This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.

???huh???


Newsgroups: alt.mythology