From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Observations
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:51:40 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In talk.abortion, stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>In article <24559@oasys.dt.navy.mil> bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense) wri
>tes:
>>In talk.abortion, stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep01.191402.16457@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com wri

>>Could you post a verifiable reference for this please. Murder is not
>>given any kind of "moral" definition in anything I have available. Just
>>legalities and slang.

>Try any bible.  Really, any one!  :-)

I take it this is sarcasm? :) After all, I asked for a 'verifiable'
reference.

>>It is not your child until it is born.

>I disagree.  Or, if this is the case, then how come I'm not allowed to deny
>it?

I'm not so sure that you are not. After all, don't many single mothers
get faced with just that? Denial? You also are not required to give
up body samples for DNA comparison unless you are also under allegation
of doing some crime, as my understanding of that goes. So, in effect,
you can simply deny it, unless you are married of course, and then you
can deny it if you think it isn't your child.

>>How do you feel if your "child" with
>>a woman you don't really care for (pretend a moment of weakness/confusion/
>>changing attitudes) miscarried? Do you weep for your "child"?

>I wouldn't know, as I've never been in such a situation.  Ask somebody
>who has.

It was a hypothetical situation, and I asked you to place yourself in
it. (Implicitly)

>>Sorry bub. Nothing is being done to the "father" as half the time the
>>"father" isn't around or aware of what he imposed on the woman.

>I see.  So damage that you receive that you are UNAWARE of at the time,
>is not damage?

All depends on whether you consider it damage. I personally don't see
how it could be considered as such for a man, although it is very easy
to see how it could be considered such for a woman. Tell me, John, are
you afraid that the woman you sleep with might make up her own mind
without consulting you on this type of issue? Is this fear the basis
for your rather bizarre (imo) stance? There is help for insecurity,
if this is the basis for your stance. Otherwise I'd like to see you
rationalize why a woman should have threats on her health placed against
your wishes because you desire the child.

>>You weren't a father to begin with.

>Yes, I was.  You state your beliefs as if they were facts.  They are not.

I'm stating them from definitions. You were describing a father-to-be,
not a father. Father indicates having fathered a child, which does not
exist before birth. As proof, you might want to consider a still born
child. Neither prospective parent really was a parent, as there was
no child to parent.

>Damn sick.  Which is why I always use some form of contraception that
>is designed to prevent conception.

Good for you. I heartily approve of this responsible action.

>Ask any couple who has been trying to get pregnant (and keep the baby)
>for a protracted period of time about how they feel.

You might be surprised. A few months ago, I had an in-depth discussion
with a woman friend who has had a hysterectomy, and can't conceive.
She had an abortion a while back because she and her husband were not
ready at all for a child at the time. Unbeknownst to her, she had a
condition where her fallopian tubes were problematic, and were slowly
becoming clogged and less hospitable to the fertilization process. As
stated above, they finally had to be removed. She's agonized over the
abortion, as it appears now that she will likely never have children,
yet she is still pro-choice, as she believes it was her choice, and
she has to live with it. She's had several implantations done, and all
have miscarried to date. It really hurts her deeply, yet she still hopes
to one day have a child. She is now 35. I think I know how at least
this couple feels, and I don't believe others would be much different
under similar circumstances. The difference here is that they want children.

>>As for the rest, what if the woman wanted your testicles
>>so that she could produce an offspring since none resulted from your
>>copulation, and she feels that she's been wronged and you didn't want
>>any?

>If I understand you correctly, I believe that she has not right to
>require just my testicles. :-)  It's all or nothing, babe.

The realtion being that you cannot require her womb. The all or nothing
has nothing to do with it. Good bit of humor though. :)

>>(Note, I know that this is ludicrous,

>Then why bring it up?

I believe that was explained in the part you gratuitously deleted.

Ron

Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion