HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Break-up Etiquette?
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:21:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

Hi everyone!

This is my first post to this group, so before I dig into the subject at
hand, I thought I ought to introduce myself.  My name is Gretchen and I'm
from Portland OR.  I work at Lewis & Clark College (database trainer and
technical writer), right across the river from Nelson at Reed!  I didn't
attend the motss.con for several reasons, mainly that I'm a newbie to this
group and haven't developed electronic rel'ps with anyone yet, so it
seemed a bit premature to introduce myself in person...  [Those of you who
have complained about the teensy clouds and rain we got during motss.con
(*very* uncharacteristic for this time of year) ought to be happy you're
not here now.  101F yesterday - whew!]

Especial hellos to annemarie and ailsa (who is becoming my net.crush :-),
who(m?) I already know well from the other newsgroups we have in common.

I know it's bad form to post a follow-up when e-mail replies have been
requested, but I wanted to let a wider audience know about some wonderful
books.  Please forgive me... and let me know what you think of the books!

Kerry -

I would echo everything Don said in his post, and add a few things
explicitly.  Be honest; provide support only as you feel you can, not from
any sense of obligation to (or protection of) either party involved. 
Provide depth of support that makes you feel comfortable.  (I.e., if you
don't want to receive lots of calls at midnight, say so.)  Hold them,
listen to them, comfort them (one at a time, of course!).  If you find
yourself taking sides or trashing the absent one, either shut up or
acknowledge that you do have a primary loyalty and go with it.

Give them their own copies of the following books (recommended in this order):

_The_Woman's_Comfort_Book:_A_Self-Nurturing_Guide_for_Restoring_Balance_in_
Your_Life_, by Jennifer Louden, (C) 1992.  Little rituals to acknowledge
anger, pain, sadness, and to provide comfort to yourself.

_Unbroken_Ties:_Lesbian_Ex-Lovers_, by Carol S. Becker, Ph.D., (C) 1988. 
The classic.  Not a good thing right after the breakup, but chock full of
examples of the myriad ways we dykes deal with loss of lovers.  Good for
when they're ready to start developing an "ex-lover relationship."

_Write_From_the_Heart:_Lesbians_Healing_from_Heartache_, an anthology
edited by Anita L. Pace, (C) 1992.  I haven't started this one, but from
the blurbs it seemed a good follow-up to _Unbroken_Ties_.

_The_Two_Step:_The_Dance_Toward_Intimacy_, written by Eileen McCann and
illustrated by Douglas Shannon, (C) 1985.  This is a wonderful book, good
for when they're ready to start processing what happened on a deeper
level.  It's all about the Seeker and the Sought, power, distance,
intimacy, needs, fears, and only takes ~45 minutes to read.  Best of all,
it is gay/lesbian inclusive!


Hope this helps!

Blessed Be,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell)
Subject: Re: Results from the Con Part I
Organization: Youngstown State University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:18:18 GMT

elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:
: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
: 
:  >OK --- let's start up the commemorative motss.con quote file...
: 
: "...I like a moose..."  -- 30-odd people embracing in downtown Portland.
: No, make that 30-very-odd people.
: 

How about "I can't eat those [chicken's feet] - it's cannibalism"
by John Dorrance, at the dim sum.

And both Ellen and John are quite different - in a positive way - from
what I expected.
--
Doug Sewell, Tech Support, Computer Center, Youngstown State University
doug@cc.ysu.edu	   doug@ysub.bitnet	<internet>!cc.ysu.edu!doug
"Recession: your friend loses his job.  Depression: you lose your job.
Recovery: Bush loses his job" - Bill Davidsen
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: baskin@watson.ibm.com
Subject: Calvin and Hobbes quote
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:11:48 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Did anyone catch the quote from C & H yesterday, July 29?
Calvin says to Hobbes, "The problem is your big, hot, furry body".

Had to call up my lover right away and use it on him.  He asked
if he should come home right away.

Mat Baskin
From: booter@Autodesk.COM (Elaine Richards)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the b-word
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:06:29 GMT
Organization: Autodesk, Inc., Sausalito, CA

In article <nhum02k@fido.asd.sgi.com> dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
>
>I tend to use breeder to describe a particular type of heterosexual.  These
>are the "baby" people who tell you everything about their child, their
>children's baseball stats, the baby shower, how wonderful babies are, etc.
>
>I guess I nicer term would be "baby-centric heterosexual".


I use the expression "slide show bore".

They belong in the same hell as straight women who obsess about their
boyfriends, their biological clock, why they cannot meet men (they are
boring obsessives!), and their girlfriends' boyfriends.

ER
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know when it was that I scratched Fate's car door, but I should have
left a note. --Tim Mefford

Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,talk.politics.misc,rec.arts.tv.uk,alt.individualism,rec.arts.tv.soaps,alt.activism
From: ginger@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.gallagher)
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Followup-To: soc.motss, rec.arts.tv, talk.politics.misc., rec.arts.tv.uk, rec.arts.tv.soaps
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:27:41 GMT

In article <l76kmjINN2gt@mizar.usc.edu>, adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> In article <2A733D51.5586@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
> cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) blathers about
> something that I decided to delete.
> 
> Drop dead, asshole.
> 
> Arne

            I could not have said it better myself Arne!!!!!!!
            Thanks.  Wonder where we inherit some of these
            characters from???????
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: cz@wssh.cc.univie.ac.at (Curd Zechmeister)
Subject: Wir sind eine Gruppe
Organization: Vienna University Computer Center
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:04:18 GMT


Wir sind eine Gruppe v. Gay-Jungs im Alter  v. 18-24 J.,
die sich allwoechentlich treffen u. hier eine gute Freundschaft
pflegen. An weiteren Freunden sind wir interessiert. 

Wenn ihr kommen moechtet schreibt an PA 1011 WIEN Postfach 904.
Accountinhaber und Postfachinhaber sind nicht ident. Keine falschen
Rueckschluesse !!

Servus

C.S.Z.
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Fiction (was Re: Spanish spelling)
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:38:55 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <32590298@hpmwfab2.sr.hp.com> mdrayton@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:
>
> Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank - Swilling) writes:
>>My CDs might be smaller than your records, but they're harder and
>>they last just about forever.
>
>----------
>My 78s are larger than your CDs, thicker, heavier, stiffer,
>and have _already_ lasted decades.  And they make great white
>noise generators, too.

If only they made great *pink* noise generators, we'd have some
motss relevance :-)

--
       David R. Preston  drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
          We're here, we're bored, but we won't be ignored!
   B4 f+ t- k+ s-/+ r P8/4 S6 b+/- g- l-/+ y- z/! n o+/++ x a+ u v-- j++
          D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: "Rational" Humans vs ?? (was Re: On Banning Private Discrimination)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 00:40:30 GMT


In article <1992Jul23.000320.27396@gordian.com>
mike@gordian.com (Michael A.  Thomas) writes:

>There is nothing utopian (in the sense of we would have a
>perfectly harmonious society) about this, it would just be
>_optimal_ given the way human beings behave.  Problems would
>still exist, but there would be less problem when considered
>on whole.

And that's not utopian, eh?  The notion of "optimal" wrt to
human beings is absurd on its face.

You're wasting our time.  Come back when you actually *have*
an argument.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.tv.uk,rec.arts.tv.soaps,soc.bi,alt.politics.homos
Subject: Re: Do You Remember any Gay/Lesbian Characters on TV Series?
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:33:06 GMT

glb3833@sjfc.UUCP (Gidget Bowden) writes:

> I'm not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but on the soap AT the
> World Turns, there was a gay character Hank.  They never showed his lover,
> who was living in another city, but his lover had AIDS, and eventually
> died, I think.
> 
        question- does a gay (spec. male) character who dies (on TV) ever die
        of anything BESIDES AIDS??

have just noticed an odd occurance in this intersting thread that GAY characters
seems to somehow involve AIDS....(maybe this is a bit of an oversimplification,
but has anyone else noticed?)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: Gore Vidal's New Book
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:05:49 GMT

*Faaaaabulous* news from the world of publishing, according
to "Book Notes" in today's (7/29/92) New York Times:

Gore Vidal's soon-to-be-published novel, "Live From
Golgotha," is being withheld, by Random House, from
reviewers and other folks who normally get advance
peeks at books, at Gore's insistence.

The book is "an iconoclastic look at the life of Jesus
that includes network coverage of the crucifixion and
a visit by, naturally, Shirley MacLaine."  Gore describes
it as similar "in its wild and crazy feeling" to his
masterpiece, "Myra Breckenridge."

OK, here's the good part:

"Mr. Vidal did allow one exception to the embargo.  He
asked that one copy be sent to The Advocate, the gay and
lesbian magazine.  The magazine will have a review in its
August 25 issue, which will be available on August 11, a
couple of weeks before the book is scheduled to be in
bookstores.

"Mark Thompson, the magazine's senior editor for the arts,
said the review exclusive 'came with no strings attached'
and was the result of 'a long history between the magazine
and Vidal, whom we've interviewed and put on the cover
several times over the years.'"

Also, look for a feature on Gore in September's "Vanity
Fair", and he'll also co-star in Tim Robbins's new movie,
"Bob Roberts."
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Editor-in-Chief of THE ADVOCATE Resigns!
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:10:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Jul28.221009.26615
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Jul28.142822.18973@news.ysu.edu> doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:
>I'm seriously considering alternatives [to the Advocate] (but not
>sure what).  The "real news" generally tends to hit soc.motss long
>before it shows up in print.

It's really too bad that Outweek is gone. Are there no replacements?

Oh, I saw my first issue of Monk yesterday (I got to read a copy that
John Dorrance had read. *squeal*). My god, is this drek or what? Why
is it popular?
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                  Where do you conceal the gun in a bikini?
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@odin.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: Breeders and kikes
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:37:41 GMT

IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>what do you mean, there aren't good jews and bad jews?  guess they
>really ARE the chosen people...

>there are good dykes and bad dykes, good black people and bad black
>people, good pagans and bad pagans, good straights and bad straights,
>good christians and bad christians, good men and bad men, and on and on...
>no group has the corner on goodness, and no one group has the corner on
>badness.  i know a very nice devoutly feminist muslim man, for instance.

Well, yeah. You know what I meant (eep!). It's just that it's not fair to
assume that Jews are good/bad/whatever, whereas it's self-preservation
to assume that straights are 'bad' until they prove that they have a
grip.

John, who'd really better get off his butt and start getting ready
for his flight (oboyoboyoboyoboyoboy!!!!!).

--
John Dorrance    ** Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico **    thaaang@odin.unomaha.edu

		I always thought of you as my brick wall
		   Built like an angel, six feet tall.
From: mdrayton@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:24:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Noun Sex (wasRe: Family Values (Clinton/Gore))
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD)
Newsgroups: soc.motss

 katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
>mdrayton@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton) writes:
>:  katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
>: 
>: > Rep. Joseph Kennedy III ... talking about how the Republikans
>: > have white, country club values that in no way represent most
>: > of our families' values. 

>: So what color country club values do the Kennedys have?
>: (Yes, I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I can't let this slip by.)

>Well, at least some of them seem to have values that include ideas
>like public service. 

>Holy shit, I'm defending rich white boyz!  8^) 
----------
That's OK, you're having this conversation with a middle-class
white boy -- ideologically just as bad, and without the leisure to
do public service!

Mike Drayton
mdrayton@sr.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Gay Myths and Jeep Codes
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:37:43 GMT

foster@convex.COM (Harry Foster) wrote: 
->	.... That was when I 
->	found out he harbored the misconception that gay men are 
->	attracted to all other males.  

they all seem to think this.  is this information part of the early-on
programming for heterosexuals or something?

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Subject: Re: Gay Staffer leaves Bush Campaign
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyle, Inc.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:03:32 GMT

Suzanne Chiles (schiles@martini.us.oracle.com) wrote:
 
> Time of broadcast aside, I would imagine most thinking folk to have much
> higher regard for Ted Koppel's Nightline than whatever their prime-time
> news magazine aka National Enquirer show is.  I, for one, am much
> happier to see the story broadcast when and where it was.

I actually have a higher regard for the MacNeil/Leherer Newshour,
but I missed that I only caught the tail end of the story
on All Things Considered [National Public Radio].

It sounded "fair" and "objective" to me [I would even say
favorable, but these are Fundamentalist Lifestyle codewords,
although I'm sure they'd be rabid with self-righteous
indignation at the "biased" and "immoral" reporting, had 
they heard it, since they probably didn't, since it *is*
Radio for the Cultural Elite].

Anyway, is this going to become a significant story?  Are the
Democrats bold enough to use it?

What I thought made the report on NPR noteworthy is that
it contained a sound-bite of BirdBrain Quale, just the
night before, giving a speech in which he defended the
administration's "vigorous anti-discrimination policy".  
Our reporter sounded skeptical....

--jns
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: new hankie codes?
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:07:08 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:

>While at GaylactiCon IV in Philly, I saw something I found very interesting.
>I was sitting in a fastfood joint wolfing down a burger when two young (18 or
>younger) types came in.  What caused me to notice them wasn't their age or
>their looks but their hankies.
>One hand a grey hankie hanging from him left rear pocket.  The other had a
>purple hankie hanging from his left rear also.
>I'm fairly sure they had no idea what they were signalling since the hankies
>changed sides as they went digging for change in their pockets.  
>Has anyone out there run into this situation before?  Is this some sort of
>signal for club/gang affiliation?

1. Used to combat excessive discharge of mucus.
2. Prepared for that naughty knotted handkerchief trick at any given moment.
3. Major part of Bruce Weber disguise.
4. They were fuel service attendants.  Those boring red rags are passe.
5. Being young means never having to say "I'm top" or "I'm bottom".
6. They were English; the rags are used to filter tea (loose leaf, merci).
7. They were Mugwumps in disguise -- flagging for available jissom.
8. Rags are used to combat precum from Pat Sajak fantasies.

Just remember: they are twinks.  Freshness never tasted so good.
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

i'm your girl            friend
i'm your squirrel        friend
i'm your round the world friend
From: rcw@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Robert White)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 22 Jul 92 06:37:59 GMT
Organization: The WhiteStar Corporation

In article <1992Jul21.211216.23641@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>Are businesses owners not allowed 
>to have a conscience about whom they provide their wares to or not?

I think it's critical to have this right for the following two practical
reasons:  1) I'm too busy and I can't take on additional work and 2) I 
have reason not to trust the buyer.  I am in the database business,
and it's in my interest to not sell to individuals who might distribute
the data across the countryside for free.  My point is that there are
legitimate reasons to discriminate.

In the same breath, I personally would never turn down a buyer
on account of race, color, creed, national origin, sexual preference, gender. 
Legislation that tried to mandate this would, unfortunately, be uneforcable
for obvious reasons.


>  If a business sells chemicals which could be dangerous in the wrong
>hands and deranged person came in the door should the business be 
>_required_ to sell it anyway? 

Straw man.  EPA regulations prohibit scenarios like this.
Those companies which have done things similar to this in the past are
simply outlaw.  All the legislation and regulation in the world won't
change that.

>  Where does this end?  Is there some sort of guideline which we could
>follow when making these sorts of proscriptions or is it essentially
>arbitrary and dependent on the whim of the moment? If there is I'd
>be glad to hear it.

Ethics.

>We seemingly cannot even agree upon what
>a *business* is.

Hey, we don't have to.  The IRS has it nicely defined for us.

>  Unquestionably some do. People use freedom of speach to justify saying
>hateful things as well. Shall we restrict that as well? Allowing people
>freedom is not tantamount to supporting any abuse that can come from
>that freedom. The other side of the coin is the forced censorship of
>the state -- which is better?

Somewhere in the middle.  Better the devil you know.


-- 
  [   Robert Carleton White, Jr.                                          ]
  [                                If not you, who?  If not now, when?    ]
  [   rcw@scicom.alphacdc.com                                             ]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: akbar@cs.mcgill.ca (Alain BOUCHARD)
Subject: Basket Weaving Engineering (was Re: Engineer bashing)
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:56:08 GMT

[Comparison of schools, programs, curriculum, etc... deleted]

I have attended a school that is quoted one of the best in the country, but
no matter what faculty you attend, what courses you take, I don't think
school will prepare you for life.  You get methods, training, develop
interest, maybe...   

The drop-out rate in the present school system is a good indication of its 
failure.  If I would rely on school only to provide me with all the knowledge
I need to succeed or be happy, I'd be in one for the rest of my life.

I think the division between the scientists and the humanists is artificial 
and futile.  People who insist on making one should remember that the great
minds of our time are multi-disciplinary. 

Major advancements in modern science were often by-products of novelties,
pranks, jokes and gadgets industry.  We all know of Galileo's work on the
Pocket Spy Telescope; Marconi's Secret Pocket Pen Radio; and Newton's Rear
View Glasses.  You may have heard the rumours that Tesla's towering 
lightning-producing coils were working models of the Hand-held Joy-Buzzer 
awaiting miniaturization. =8)



Alain (paper machine clothing designer)<-- Futur occupationnal upset in the
                                           book of gay cliche'

--------------------

"The Whoopie Cushion is a very accurate model of the expanding universe.  
Of course, it raises more questions than it answers.  Who is blowing it up?  
For whose seat is it destined?  Will the world end with neither bang nor 
whimper but with a bbrrrrrpppppppp!?  And why do we find flatulence funny 
anyway?"
                      Dr. Danny Boystein
                       -- Strange Bedfellows, Weird Playthings
                     (or Nose Glasses, Foaming Sugar, and the Ascent of Man)
              
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32758 talk.politics.misc:36277 rec.arts.tv:15492 alt.individualism:4673 rec.arts.tv.uk:4549 alt.activism:13633 rec.arts.tv.soaps:26857
From: neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,rec.arts.tv,alt.individualism,rec.arts.tv.uk,alt.activism,rec.arts.tv.soaps
Subject: Re: Gayspace (was Re: Do You Remember... and Re: On Banning Private Discrimination)
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:40:19 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <l76cdcINN1l6@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>
>Last night I had dinner at my (West Hollywood) neighborhood
>hangout.  It's a large, noisy, cruisy, gay Mexican restaurant
>whose food is mediocre, but whose margaritas are *faaabulous*. 
>As I stood at the bar waiting for a table, I noticed 4 young and

Do you want to stop cross-posting this shit to sewsgroups that it doesn't
concern.

Seriously, get a life punk.

Neil
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: British Pronounciation
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:54:13 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Jul21.231444.3167@macc.wisc.edu>
anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>Then there's the famous Dallasites, sisters named Hogg: Ima
>and Yura (truth, I swear; I was even introduced to Ima
>once).

Houstonians, I believe; at least that's where I met IH after
a concert she sponsored.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32726 talk.politics.misc:36252 alt.individualism:4661 alt.activism:13618