HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:14:37 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>There is a difference between flooding the net with a post of binaries
>for GEEWIZ.EXE and 600 KB/Week of insults, repeated material, etc.

Obviously there is for you. There isn't for me. Could you please accept that
and base your arguments on a standard which would affect every news 
reader/admin?

>Information is defined (by me at least) as something potentially useful
>to others

Mutulu's insults are VERY useful to others. They show us how NOT to 
communicate. 

>...along with INSULTS to the users of those OS's for not using
>OS/2, how would you feel about it? 

Given that I use NN as a newsreader, I could care less. I get involved
in something by my choice. Don't you?

>extent, and at least he's off the net for now. Just because the net has
>'tolerated' abuse before it does not mean it should tolerate them again.

Who says? Who really speaks for the net?

There's lots more to tolerate than the net. Good luck in your jihad to
remove Mutulu. 

>Let me put it ONE MORE way. Forget the analogy above. Would you accept
>as part of normal Usenet life if the Neo-Nazis, or the White
>Supremacists, or the <your least-favorite-group-here> gets on the net
>(goebels@fuhrer.org) and posts drivels after drivels against, say,
>various minorities or ethnic groups often targeted by them?

They do, and I don't tend to give any of them any more time than it takes
to determine that they are such people. I can safely ignore them. After
all, they are going to feel how they feel and say what they say regardless
of any input I could proffer. Why waste energy?

>> (Actually I welcome such spirit. Makes life more interesting.)
>Me too. But there's a line somewhere. And I think the line was crossed.

Ok, look...why don't you REALLY oppose Mutulu and write an auto-canceller
for his posts? Campaign loud and strong to his newsfeeds, and oppose him
just as hard as you can! See just how hard you can oppose him...go for the
gold. 

>> So put him in your kill file, IGNORE him, and don't give him any more 
>> power than you have already given him. If he wants to waste his energy,
>> that's his business. 
>My key point, unfortunately, is that tolerating abuse will only create
>more abuse. I can ignore him all I want. It did not work before, it will
>not work again. 

Well, use what works. Obviously you are having more of an effect on him
this way, no? 

Go get him. Just don't expect ME to feel the same way.


-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    If it works...use it. If it doesn't, find out why and use THAT. 
From: Alexandros.Gougousoudis@f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org (Alexandros Gougousoudis)
Sender: postmaster@p2.f41.n2403.z2.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 01 Sep 92  22:52:00 EST

 > From: by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
 > Newsgroups: news.admin

Hi Spiro,

 >>in my opinion, inappropriate places to discuss the Armenian-Turkish
 >>debate.
 > And I am sure you will expect him to listen. Now, about that
 > bridge in

Hasan is a poor charcter, he just want that the people pay attention to him, an in several Newsgroups they really do. If the readers would ignore him, not follow-up to his Mails, he would stop posting his nonsense in a short time. Hes like a NetNazi, just ignore him, then the Netload would decrease automatically. On my system I installed a Msg-Killer by Name, so I don't have to read him, and see, some Newsgroups are *READABLE*.

 > presented earlier that anatolia.mn.org was used to send articles
 > to 10
 > or so news groups, appearing to have originated from

Is it possible to delete these Msgs with CANCEL Mails?

 > Free Speech is fine, and we support it also, but to insure an

Of cource, but he uses the Net as a propaganda machine.
I have to pay for my Mail (I am a all.all site), I don't want to support him, because I have to carry his Mails. Free opinion yes, if he thinks that the armenians are monsters, it is ok, he might write some Mails, where he can tell the people why he thnks so, but not that what he is doing now. I really ask me, what he is doing all the time, except writing Mails. Doesn't he have a job?-))

 > I also wonder if people posting from non-existing, non-traceable
 > hosts will also be 'prosecuted'.

Thats the problem in big Systems, I know all my Users personally, and if one failes, I give him a note, but such nonsense is only possible in really big Systems, or the admin is a jerk.

 > world? News.lists stats had Mutlu consistenly among the top 10
 > Usenet

Wow, thats what I say, maybe it is his job to manipulate the people.

 > posters, second only to automated weather statistics postings.

Where are these postings? I am interessted in.

 > In a Mutlu context, the use of the word respect is an oxymoron. He

He IS a NetNazi, what do you expect?


 > value, I do not appreciate the VOLUME, CROSSPOSTING, or SELF-
 > SERVING
 > NET USE that Mutlu (and the ghostposters) seems fit to practice.


Ignore him ,and he will stop, let him write what he want, he will stop if no one answers, thats is what he really want!

Greetings from Berlin,

 Alexandros (alec@krypta.in-berlin.de)

---
 * Origin: Krypta.UUCP,UseNet-Berlin,FRG.FReq: 8:00-13:00h AM! (2:2403/41)
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: news@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose)
Subject: feed wanted
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:31:10 GMT
X-Posted-From: moe.eng.temple.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I am looking for a newsfeed in the metro Philadelphia area.
If you can help, please contact jwiegand@moe.eng.temple.edu.
Thanks,
	jim wiegand
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD . . .)
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:47:58 GMT
Organization: negligable

Hi guys -- been too busy to follow this stuff much recently, but here's
something to stir the pot a little more......

Permission is granted for someone to repost to these newsgroups, which
are inaccessible to my b-news setup: comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal.computing

In article <1992Aug31.011750.7340@wolves.uucp> news@wolves.uucp (The Wolfe of the Den) writes:
>	The *law* is that copyright exists on a work fixed in a tangible
>medium. period.  Adding copyright headers or some other "quick fix" will
>not work since there is no way to enforce the adoption of the headers or
>the "sanctity" of their contents.

Has anyone yet resolved the question of whether USENET has been established
to be a "tangible medium"?

It seems to me that there was a lot of discussion earlier focussing on
the fact that there is no "USENET" that could be called to responsibility
or be sued as an entity should there be a reason for such an action ... 
doesn't it follow that "USENET" is an intangible as far as the law is
concerned?


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@uLogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Ideas are not responsible for the people who believe them."
From: news@wolves.uucp (The Wolfe of the Den)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD . . .)
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:55:54 GMT
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX
X-Md4-Signature: b7716d834d1a77ada6be906eb7139f4d

In article <252@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug31.011750.7340@wolves.uucp> news@wolves.uucp (The Wolfe of the Den) writes:
>>	The *law* is that copyright exists on a work fixed in a tangible
>>medium. period.  Adding copyright headers or some other "quick fix" will
>>not work since there is no way to enforce the adoption of the headers or
>>the "sanctity" of their contents.
>
>Has anyone yet resolved the question of whether USENET has been established
>to be a "tangible medium"?

Magnetic flux changes stored in/on electromagnetic devices have been
established legally as a "tangible medium", this includes the electronic
memory systems of a computer system, whether those memory systems be
permanent or volatile.  (I believe this was a side effect of one of the
various cases of copying computer game cartridges.  One of the Nintendo
vs. everyone else cases :-)

>It seems to me that there was a lot of discussion earlier focussing on
>the fact that there is no "USENET" that could be called to responsibility
>or be sued as an entity should there be a reason for such an action ... 
>doesn't it follow that "USENET" is an intangible as far as the law is
>concerned?

	Well, that seems to be the effective answer.  The problem seems
to be also that this vast cooperative *does exist*, but that it is a
situation that we who are involved with it don't have any previous good
model for dealing with the situation.

	I suspect that there are "artists colonies" or "informal
cooperatives" in history that operated on the casual, anarchic basis
that we use here, and that at some point, someone didn't like what was
done to them there and sued.   The question is, what was the result?
Based on very fuzzy memory, I think there have been results in "both
directions" -- the plaintiffs have won some and lost some.  Perhaps one
of the real.net.lawyers can comment on this?

-- 
Usenet Net News Administrator @ The Wolves Den  (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
news%wolves@cs.duke.edu     ...duke!wolves!news     "We don't need no
There is a real person who watches this account.   stinking disclaimers"
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
From: jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer)
Subject: Re: UCB posting service (was: Re: Hasan B)
Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing Network, Detroit, MI
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 07:58:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.140207.1574@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
"
"jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer) writes:
">It really amazes me that such a net.cornerstone like Berkeley would
">provide a facility with such few safeguards. This gateway has to have
">been abused before. They should at least put in a facility which verifies
">from-addresses and kicks out anything suspicious. I too hope that the
">loopholes are closed.
"
"Interesting observation; I have been using the service since 1985, when
"I started working and my employer did not carry soc-culture-greek. In
"all these years and all these articles I (and many many MANY other
"subscribers to the mailing list version of soc-culture-greek) never 
"got any information as to the fact that the service was in place to
"support LOCAL UC Berkeley use and not intended as a public service.
"
"I do not remember it being abused in the past to the extent it was
"abused by Hasan & Company. Maybe forged messages once in a while by
"historic figures, but not used to cross-post to eternity. And, of
"course, we were never advised that the service was not intended for
"use by the general public.
"
It should be real easy for them to configure it to dump any posts not
from domain Berkeley.EDU. Is someone from Berkeley on the net who can
comment on what is going on with this gateway and how it will be made
more secure??
Xref: sparky news.admin:7324 alt.censorship:7266
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:01:14 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <F7TI7U9@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>In article <3768@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca> clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>>I've often considered class-action libel or slander lawsuits a better
>>approach than the laws we have, but we don't have that option because
>>class-action suits in themselves aren't valid here....

>That has a certain attraction. I'd love to see some of the suits Consumer
>Reports and similar organizations would face, though.

Why?  Are they saying nasty things about "some identifiable group"?

I think CR and similar organizations are already potentially vulnerable
to ordinary lawsuits from the companies that make the products that
CR et. al. may malign.  Don't need class-action for this.

Organizations like CR produce reports that you can more-or-less trust.
When they say nasty things about something, you can be damn sure that
they're *sure* about it, otherwise, they'd be opening themselves up
to lawsuits.  Smaller organizations tend not to be particularly
critical of companies or products because they're not prepared for
the results of mistakes.  Which is why many magazine "product reviews"
are almost completely useless.  (Another common reason is that they
don't want to lose advertising revenue from blasting one of their
sponsor's products).
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
From: todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 31 Aug 92 04:04:27 GMT
Organization: the Bear Creek Tinkerer's Society and Social Club

c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>They may have removed indiscriminant posting capabilities; for example,
>aliases existed for just about all news groups BUT now they don't work;
>I have received error messages posting in ways that USED TO work before.
>(sigh :-))

Oh, it's still working all right - there's a guy who doesn't have net access
posting stuff on talk.politics.animals, all stuff straight off of a mailing
list that is availiable on Email.

How does one put a stop to this bandwidth wasting blind posting?

-- 
Todd++;
------------------
todd@refrig.dixie.com
Xref: sparky news.admin:7372 misc.legal.computing:2047
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:42:49 GMT
 <1992Aug27.191427.5384@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>   
 <1992Aug29.060506.12868@anomaly.sbs.risc.net> <1992Sep1.010318.19818@cfctech.cfc.com> <23600@alice.att.com>

In <23600@alice.att.com> jj@alice.att.com (jj,  curmudgeon and clueless old white boy) writes:

>In article <1992Sep1.010318.19818@cfctech.cfc.com> kevin@cfctech.cfc.com (Kevin Darcy) writes:

>>By the same "reasoning", **ALL** contracts are null and void, if either party
>>challenges their validity.

>Was there a meeting of the minds when the contract was established?

Well, the answer for the case of USENet seems to be no.

--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
My interaction with our news system is unstable; if you want to be sure I see a post, mail it.
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
From: kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.risc.net (Michael P. Deignan)
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
Organization: The Rhode Island Internet Systems Cooperative Network
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 17:53:46 GMT

jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap) writes:

>What I'm saying is that the fact that a .ca site receives
>Distribution: usa is not because some site ignored your specification;
>it's because you used a tool that's not applicable to the purpose, if
>you wanted to prevent this.

I can tell my system here to ignore Distributions. Your articles don't
get propagated.


>Computers are configured and used by humans, who can and do enter
>implicit and explicit agreements by using the net.

Individuals configuring computer systems may or may not have the authority
to act as the computer-owner's agent in legal representation.

>You accept the net's services when you post.

"The net" is a non-entity. It can't offer me a service. My automobile
can't offer me the opportunity to wash and wax it.


MD
-- 
--  Michael P. Deignan                      / Sex is hereditary. If your 
--  Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com            /  parents never had it, chances 
--    UUCP: ...!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /   are you won't either...
-- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /
From: woneill@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu (Bill O'Neill)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Help with cnews/nntpxmit?
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:45:40 GMT
Organization: Temple University

We're running cnews and nntp (don't know which versions off-hand) and are 
having problems with posting articles.

When a user posts an article, it creates an entry in 
/usr/spool/news/out.going/netnews.upenn.edu that looks something like this:

alt/test/##### <_msg id_>

where the #s are replaced by the message number in our news spool directory
and _msg id_ is the usual message id.

Whenever we run nntpsend to invoke nntpxmit, though, null articles are sent and
rejected. If I edit the out.going file to add in a complete path, then articles
are transmitted fine. 

Should this file have a complete path for each message or is there something 
wrong with out nntpxmit?

Please e-mail replies to woneill@picasso.ocis.temple.edu
-- 
                     
	             -------------------------------
Bill O'Neill			_is_ 		woneill@picasso.ocis.temple.edu
Temple University	Broad and Montgomery Aves.	Philadelphia, PA
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:38:38 GMT


Speaking of "those horrible victims of free expression":

clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:

[...]
>I can think of about 60 million without trying very hard.  Nazi Germany
>is an ideal example of where, long before Hitler came into power and
>could *force* his views, what this type of speech could result in.
>He didn't just appear out of thin air as Reichfuhrer - it was this
>speech that got him his power.  And once he had his power, no German
>law could contain his actions.
[...]

Hitler's rise and rule is an example of why governments shouldn't
allow violence to go unpunished and of the danger of unconstrained
government power (even democratic power). It is not an example of the
failure of free expresion.

Although, Hitler and his Brown Shirts were free to speak, his
opposition wasn't. Why? Because his Brown Shirts would beat up or kill
the opposition and the government would not stop the violence. After
his rise his government could do anything because it wasn't
constrained by the idea that some rights are so basic or important
that government should not be able to suppress them.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
From: whs70@dancer.uucp (22501-sohl)
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 13:54:36 GMT

In article <a_rubin.714853151@dn66> a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
>In <1992Aug24.225908.5989@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
>>A contract is an agreement between two parties to exchanges goods, services
>>and/or money.  The only requirements for forming a binding contract are 
>>that the parties entered into the agreement voluntarily and that the 
>>original intent of the parties has not be obstructed by outside forces.
>
>That is what I see as weak point of the contract argument; there is no
>identifiable party representing the net.  It's usually clear who the poster
>is.
>Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea

If, as you say, there is no identifiable party representing the net, then
who is jj and the others ever going to sue for copyright infringement if
they ever decide to do it?  :-)  :-)

Actually, though, the contracting party(s) constituting the net are
(IMHO) all the providers of the piece parts of the network.  You can,
as Andrew Ford points out, have a contract and it doesn't have to be
limited to just one party representing the net.

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ             email via UUCP      bcr!dancer!whs70
201-829-2879 Weekdays      email via Internet  whs70@dancer.cc.bellcore.com
From: kdenning@hq.videocart.com (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Berkeley anonymous poster test
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:04:26 GMT


Testing 1.2.3.4.5.6.

Does the UCBVAX anonymous posting service still work?

--
Karl Denninger 		Inet:  kdenning@hq.videocart.com
VideOcart Inc.		Voice: (312) 987-5022
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 14:13:54 GMT

In article <3768@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca> clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>I've often considered class-action libel or slander lawsuits a better
>approach than the laws we have, but we don't have that option because
>class-action suits in themselves aren't valid here.  (Something to do
>with you can't represent/defend/sue on behalf of someone who's not
>personally and individually part of the suit.  Instead, you have
>organizations that spring up as an umbrella group and those who choose
>to become members sue jointly - but they can only sue for their
>own "damages", and by definition, that "group" wasn't the target of the
>speech in the first place).  But this would certainly have the
>advantage of getting the government *completely* out of the business.

That has a certain attraction. I'd love to see some of the suits Consumer
Reports and similar organizations would face, though.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing