From: mlibucha@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark A Libucha)
Subject: Re: Political Prostitutes or Democractic Activitists  ?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:22:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.095310.17907@bradford.ac.uk> H.Wang@bradford.ac.uk (H WANG) writes:
>
>>        Let me ask you a question. Imagine someone in your family, maybe
>                                    ^^^^^^^
>>your father or mother, goes into business in China. After some initial
>>success this relative finds himself in competition with some government
>>official, and is winning the competition. The government official, in 
>>fear of going out of business, arrests your relative and puts him in
>>jail for 10 years on some trumped up charges. For example, your relative
>>is accused of being a "counterrevolutionary". 
>>
>>       Now, in this situation, would you support CMFN? Or rather, wouldn't
>>you support *anything* that might help eliminate such injustices?
>

I used the word "imagine" because I wanted to bring up a hypothetical
situation. I stressed that point because I *don't* know of a specific
example of such a thing happening. BUT, I do know that the corruption
of government officials in China is a serious problem, and that it will
continue to be a problem in the new market system.

Furthermore, I predict that such corruption will be one of the more
serious problems China's booming economy will have to face once the
initial "gold rush" comes to an end.

>IMHO, to have justice done in China, you need more than just pure 
>groundless imagination.

Come on, hypothetical situations are not out of bounds in civilized and
polite discussions. If you don't think such a situation is likely to
occur, feel free to say so. (I think you are incredibly naive, but that's
just my opinion.) 

>
>In this case, could you post the name of at least one such person
>who has been accused of being a counter-revolutionary solely due
>to his/her bussiness activity? Then we can start some serious 
>disccusion. 

No, I can't, as I stated above. But (given time) I could compile a list
of "counterrevolutionaries" who were engaged in just about any other
activity. I would include Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi on this list
for attempting to implement capitalist reforms prior to the CR. And if you
think "China has changed", think again. Weren't the citizens in TAM on 6/4
"counterrevolutionaries"? Don't you think there will be more counter-
revolutionaries is the future? Anyone who threatens the power of the CCP
(or some CCP official) can be brought down most easily with this label. And
who in the near future is going to become powerful? Successful business
people, that's who.

The point I'm trying to make is that economic opportunity is not the end
all. Human rights must play a role in China development as well.


>
>Or your posting could be regarded as a perfect example of on what
>ridiculous bases people pushing forward CMFN with a blind haste.

Perfectly ridiculous. I have a memory. I haven't forgotten that power is
abused by government officials in China. Excuse me, I need to get my
head checked.

>
>>       (Yes, I'm an American, and yes, America has injustices, too. That's
>>not the point.)
>
>I am a Chinese and I would like to see that you point be more
>clear and responsible.

I'm sorry that you inferred that I was implying that such abuses of power 
had already happened in exactly the way as I had described them. My intention
was to imply that such abuses can (and probably will) occur in a system
of government where government officials have authoritarian power. And 
while it is nice to see the Chinese people's standard of living improving 
because of the new economic reforms, once the arbitrary powers of corrupt 
officials affect one's life personally, CMFN may not appear to be so 
detrimental to China.

Many people like me want CMFN to go thru. That is, we want China to have MFN
status, but we want human rights in China, too. Do those sentiments make
one a "political prostitute"?  It seems the implicit assumption of many is 
that if CMFN is granted, China will not make human rights concessions, and 
MFN status will be dropped. I don't agree.

Mark

>
>H.
>

From: ding@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Ignatius Ding)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 22:59:18 GMT
Subject: Involved in Mainstream Politics
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino