From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: Genetic code != entire sum of the individual
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:23:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.235013.26456@midway.uchicago.edu>
Martin Guerrero <martyg@ocf.Berkeley.EDU> writes:
>In article <1992Aug30.170617.22907@midway.uchicago.edu>
>eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu (E. Elizabeth Bartley) writes:
>>In article <17qs7eINNqlb@agate.berkeley.edu>
>>martyg@ocf.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug30.011352.29396@midway.uchicago.edu>
>>>eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>>In article <17mtmvINNear@agate.berkeley.edu>
>>>>martyg@ocf.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:

>>>>>In addition, the ENTIRE individual is defined at conception.  The mother's 
>>>>>traits and the father's traits combine to create a new DNA structure
>>>>>which equates to a new and unique human being.  Abort the unborn and
>>>>>you will never see that combination again.

>>>>Oh, please!  Yes, the genetic code of the z/e/f is determined at
>>>>conception, and yes, if the woman has an abortion there will never be
>>>>another human with that genetic code (the chances are so low as to be
>>>>nonexistent for all practical purposes).  But the entire individual is
>>>>not, *not*, NOT defined by their genetic code.  This is why identical
>>>>twins are different people.

>>>But practically speaking, the genetic code of the unborn (whether twins
>>>or not) is UNIQUE and separate from the mother.

>>Well, yes.  So?  The genetic code of the mosquito I killed last night
>>is unique and separate from mine.  A cancer's DNA is also unique.

>Let's put that mosquito in a human mother's womb.  Let's watch it grow
>to become a screaming, crying blob of cells at birth.

That proves that a z/e/f has more *potential* than a mosquito.
Granted.  So?  I think rights are based on what one *is*, not on what
one may become.

>>And this isn't what you said above.

>>>So this, hopefully, 
>>>discounts the 'just an extension of the mother' justification.

>>Oh, a z/e/f is an entity other than the pregnant woman.  Not really a
>>separate entity, but siamese twins are two different but not separate
>>entities, and certainly not just extentions of each other.  But the
>>question is just what is the entity that is the z/e/f.  Human, yes.  A
>>person?  IMO, not until its brain is fairly well developed.

>At least we agree that a human can exist within the womb.
>Let's work together on this.

Of course a z/e/f is human: what else would it be?  So are sperm and
eggs human: what else would they be?

>How can you be a human and not a person?  

Simple.  Don't have a brain capable of functioning (or do you really,
honestly think that a baby born without a brain is a person?).

>>>Simply put, before abortion there is life.  After, there is death.

>>Hm.  Well, yes.  So?  Before a cow was killed for the steak I ate last
>>night there was life.  Afterwards, there wasn't.  What of it?  We kill
>>all of the time -- often we kill bacteria and viruses and parasites
>>inside or body without even knowing it.  Does the fact that a z/e/f
>>has human DNA demand different treatment?  Does what a z/e/f may
>>become demand different treatment?  Why?

>Earlier, you said that even the z/e/f is human.  Also, you say, so?
>I'll leave the rest up to you.

I don't think there's any special value in having human DNA.  I think
there's a great deal of value in people.  However, personhood to me
depends on intelligence, brain potential, character (not its type,
simpy the possession of one), memory, etc.; the species is irrelevant.
IMO, z/e/fs become people around the 24th week, when myelination in
the brain starts and the brain has the potential of functioning
(functioning *now, not sometime in the future).

-- 
Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                     - E. Elizabeth Bartley
            Abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare.

Cthulhu for President -- when you're tired of voting for the lesser of 2 evils.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush