HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:44:28 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0



To: Daniel Leavitt
 DL=>Thought I would interject a question for you.  Have you seen a 
 DL=>book entitled, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"?  I bought a copy 
 DL=>on a recent trip to LA and found it rather interesting.  I have 
 DL=>read the book and have not found one legitimate reason not to 
 DL=>beleive the Yeshua is the Messiah. 

Yup thats for sure.  This book was published several years ago by the 
Chabad house, Lubavitchers.  I discussed their book at length at a Chabad 
house in New Orleans during a "Ruach" National Jewish conference there.  We 
were invited to Chabad, and had an amicable conversation, and shared Yeshua 
with them.  

They were alarmed that i an orthodox jew would believe in Yeshua.  Of 
course, there was nothing in their book to change my mind thats for sure. 


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From: mannk@fshvmfk1.VNET.IBM.COM (Ken Mann)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 08:51:41 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Let's Examine our Attitudes
Reply-To: mannk@fshvmfk1.VNET.IBM.COM
Organization: IBM
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: Usenet 3.0

Bruce Tiffany writes:
> I can't believe any followers of Yeshua haMashiach ever told your son he was
> sinking in the water because he didn't believe.  And I think you undermine
> your own credibility when you assert that they did.
and...
> I won't believe him, either, if he says they told him that.

Why is this so hard to believe?  With all the crazy things televangelists
spew forth, I find it very easy to believe someone, with what they thought
were good intentions, could say something like that.  Are personal attacks
against Rob really necessary?  While Rob does not agree with the major
topic of alt.messianic (that Y'Shua is Messiah), I have not witnessed him
attacking those who do.  All he has asked for is apologies from those who
continue to attack him.

More importantly, some of the posters professing to be MJs need to examine
their attitudes in light of the writings of a very wise Jew:

Proverbs:

10:19:  When words are many, sin is not absent,
        but he who holds his tongue is wise.

11:12   A man who lacks judgement derides his neighbor,
        but a man of understanding holds his tongue.

12:16   A fool shows his annoyance at once,
        but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

12:18   Reckless words pierce like a sword,
        but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

12;23   A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself,
        but the heart of fools blurts out folly.

13:3    He who guards his lips guards his life,
        but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin.

15:1    A gentle answer turns away wrath,
        but a harsh word stirs up anger.

(this list of proverbs borrowed from rec.music.christian where it was
necessary to be posted there too)

 Shalom!   |   INTERNET: mannk@fshvmfk1.vnet.ibm.com           "He
   Ken     |   VNET:     FSHVMFK1(MANNK)                         is
           |   IBMnet:   mannk@saskatchewan.fishkill.ibm.com      Messiah"
------------------------------------------------------------       - Lamb
               You can only coast downhill!
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Doctrinal statement of the UMJC and the Messianic Jewish Computer Net.
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:01:06 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0



As Messianic Jewish believers we believe:

1. That we are a part of the universal body of Messiah comprised of both
   Jews and Gentiles and consider Biblical Christianity to be Biblical 
   Judaism.
   
2. We believe Yeshua Hamashiach, the Jewish way to say Jesus Christ, is the
   Promised Messiah, was born of the Virgin Miriam(Mary), lived in Israel
   ministered to the Jewish People, chose 12 Jewish Apostles, fulfilled
   the prophecies of the Tanach,(Old Testament), taught the precepts of
   God, died for our sins on the cursed tree (cross), shed his blood for
   everlasting atonement, and rose from the dead the third day, to be both 
   Lord and Messiah.  We believe in Him was the fulness of God in a body.
   (His diety). We express this Unity as a Tri-Unity. One God expressed
   in three personages. We believe He is coming again soon to rule over
   the nations of the world for 1,000 years after which, there will be
   a new heaven and a new earth, with its capitol city being Jerusalem,
   whose foundations will have the names of the twelve Jewish Apostles
   of Yeshua, and the gates having the names of the 12 tribes of Israel!
   
3. We believe that we are to help bring Messiah back by sharing the good
   News with the Jewish People reconciling them back to their God and
   Messiah.  
   
4. our eschatology is as fortold in Matt. 24, Revelation etc..
   Most are Pre-Millenial without dispensationalism.(overlaping
   dispensations).
5. We relate to many different denominations and fellowships, some MJ
   congregations are Baptist, some Pentecostal, some Charismatic, some
   Lutheran etc..  Being an Evangelical is the covering that we best
   relate to.

To all this is an official declaration of what we believe and stand for as 
Messianic Jewish believers...

             

 


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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: danl@col.hp.com (Daniel Lockhart)
Subject: hillel m
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:14:02 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

I don't have a way back to your node from here, so excuse the note posting.

I thank you for the info.  As the question was only two lines I didn't see
an offence, but I never know.  After reading 12 groups each day at the 
beginning of work (and all but 2 are work related), I try not to browse
other groups.

Sometimes I perfer flames to no response, I definitly enjoy your type of
answer.

Thanks

daniel
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: vacation
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:12:57 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI


In article <139750.2A8CB8AE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>To: Rob Strom
>
> RS=>I will ask my children to prepare summaries of their
> RS=>experiences with Christian missionizing, since several
> RS=>on this group have questioned my second-hand reports.
> RS=>I hope to have these ready when I return.
>
>There is no need especially since this was not christian missionizing, but 
>missionizing by a family member.  Quite a difference Rob... 

If the family member was Christian, I don't see why you think it's different.
I will agree that it was *misguided* Christian missionizing, of a sort
that no responsible Christian organization would espouse. But to say it
wasn't Christian missionizing just because it came from a family member....
Really now!

If I'm being unfair and there really is "quite a difference," perhaps
you'd like to explain what that difference is.

Bill Hamilton

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>Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:04:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


      -=> Quoting Daniel Leavitt to Bill Carlson <=-
 DL> Mr. Carlson,
 DL> Thought I would interject a question for you.  Have you seen a book
 DL> entitled, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"?  I bought a copy on a
 DL> recent trip to LA and found it rather interesting.  I have read the
 DL> book and have not found one legitimate reason not to beleive the
 DL> Yeshua is the Messiah.  
    Not that one; but I have read several anti-missionary-type books
    over the years.  Some make a better case than others; but I agree
    with your conclusion.  "Faith-Strengthened", for example, has very
    weak arguments.  The counter-anti-missionary work to 'Faith-
    Strengthened' is much better.
Shalom

... 012 Shalom Alechem ---> <--- Alechem Shalom 210      
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From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Looking For A Forum
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:13:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


    -=> Quoting J045820@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com to All <=-
 J0> From: J045820@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
 J0> Date: 18 Aug 92 19:44:53 GMT
 J0> Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
 J0> Message-ID: <92231.45508.J045820@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
 J0> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 J0> 
 J0> I am looking for a group or forum as it may be to discuss JESUS CHRIST
 J0> and the BIBLE the inerrant word of GOD. You guessed It I am a BORN
 J0> again christian.
    Well..., what this net is about is Messianic Judaism, (that is
    Belief that Y'shua/(Jesus) is the Messiah), and apologetics in this
    regard from a Messianic Biblical Judaic viewpoint.  Welcome, and
    feel free to contribute.

... 012 Shalom Alechem ---> <--- Alechem Shalom 210  
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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: introduction and questions
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:10:21 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <2453@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM> tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) writes:
                               ...
>Well, sort of.  It's hard to take the prophecy of Ezekiel "literally" since
>it also says that the "Prince" will make a "sin offering" for himself as
>well as for the people (cf. Ez. 45:22).  We know from Hebrews that unlike
>the earthly priests, Jesus was without sin and therefore did not need to
>offer up an sin offering for Himself (Heb. 7:26-28).
                               ...
First of all, who is this prince?  Are you certain that this is Messiah?
Is it possible that this is a natural human prince of Israel who is subject
to Messiah?  The prince is described in rather humble terms in this section
(with detailed regulations about what the prince may do, where he can eat,
what land is his possession, and how his sons are to inherit it from him
- see Ez. 44:3, Ex. 45:7-8 references "princes", Ez. 46:18 says "The prince
must not take any of the inheritance of the people, driving them off their
property.  He is to give his sons their inheritance out of his own property
so that none of my people will be seperated from his property).  This
does not sound to me like it is referencing Yeshua.

But if  you really think it refers to Yeshua, this does not mean that
the sin offering is inconsistent with his nature.

He also did not need to be baptized, did he?  The baptism he received
from John the Baptizer was a baptism of repentence, was it not?  Yet he
said that it must be done in order to fulfill all righteousness.  It is
not necessary for Yeshua to be "in need" spiritually in order for him to
fulfill the word of the Lord that has been given concerning him.  I have
no problem believing that he would fulfill this scripture literally for
the purpose of "all righteousness", in spite of the fact that he has no
need personally of any offering.

But I believe from reading teh scriptures in Ezekiel that these prophecies
are not relating to Yeshua, but to a subordinate prince who is administrating
the rule of Yeshua in Israel.
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Un
Date: 16 Aug 92 15:16:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    To: Robert A Levene
RA>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
RA>Date: 13 Aug 92 20:30:58 GMT
RA>Organization: Johns Hopkins University
RA>Message-ID: <9208132030.AA15591@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
RA>Newsgroups: alt.messianic

RA>I have seen no evidence of Tom's dishonesty or Jew-hatred.  Although I
RA>consider Tom's theology to be incorrect (and dangerous if
RA>misinterpreted by the masses), he always supports his statements and

    Tom's theology is not merely dangerous "IF", but it is one of the
ancient theolgical errors which provided for a great deal of Christian
anti-Semitism throughout the ages.  Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Augustine,
Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, Luther--all these theologians strayed from the
truth of the Scriptures in regard to the relationship between Israel and
the Church--all these provided the justification for future Christian
anti-semitism.  Not that they didn't have correct theology to
contribute, but where they erred, they erred in a big way creating
incredible pain and suffering for the Jewish people and stealing the
true witness of Messiah from the Gentiles who had been grafted into the
Commonwealth of Israel.
    But TA doesn't like hearing that the ancient fathers were capable of
error.  It mars the pedestal he has his heros perched on.
    What I don't understand is why *you* would choose to support the
dangerous theological stance of TA, while holding MJ's in such
contempt.  My friend, it is Messianic Jews who are laboring so hard to
rid the Church of its anti-semitic theological strongholds!  Don't be
fooled by the subtlity of anti-semitism to be found in TA's theology.
It is there and it leads only to NOT-subtle forms of anti-Semitism.
    If you care for a reference, consult Daniel Gruber's "The Church and
the Jews: The Biblical Relationship".  It is an exhaustive investigation
of the theological development of Christian anti-semitism.  Where the
"exalted" fathers departed from the teaching of the Scriptures.
    You think Messianic Jews are wrong about Yeshua's Messiahship; don't
let that cause you to side with Gentile Christians whose theological
convictions have persecuted you both without "discrimination"!
    Donna D'Iorio

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From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: introduction and questions
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:38:14 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

I wrote:
>they on earth with Jesus living as immoral men among the moral?
                                    ^^^^^^^               ^^^^^
My "t" must have been stuck.  I meant "immortal" and mortal". :-)

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Post on previous subjects:
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:41:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

PART OF A DISCUSSION FROM ANOTHER NET, THAT SOMEWHAT TOUCHES ON PRIOR
DISCUSSION ON THIS NEWS GROUP.  THOUGHT SOMEONE MIGHT IT FIND IT OF
SOME INTEREST.
     This  prophecy  refers to the great wars which shall be in
     all  the  earth  in  the times of Messiah ben Joseph:  but
     they regard the times of Messiah, the Son of David, Who is
     already come. -Aden Ezra [ref.Zech.13:7] \/\/READ IN CONTEXT\/\/
     ...At  that  time  G-d will tell Messiah all  that will happen
     to Him.   The sins of the souls of the  ones who are with Thee
     under  My  throne will in the generation of  Messiah bend Thee
     down  {...} During the week [of years]  when the Son of David,
     the Messiah comes, they will  bring iron bars and  put them on
     His neck  until His  height  is  bent  low and He cries, {...}
     At  this hour,  G-d  will  say  to  Him, Ephraim, My Righteous
     Messiah, didst Thou not agree before the creation to this? Now
     let Your sorrows be as My own sorrows....      Pesikta Rabbati
     {Piska 36:142}/Yalkut on Isaiah 60:1-2}
          As we can see, {in but two examples I had on disk; there are
          others, but I have not the time to look them up}, the terms
          interchanged in Rabbinic lit..  When one is talking about
          something that is obviously the "office" of Messiah ben-
          Yosef, [As in Pes.Rabb., etc. above], yet He is reff. to as
          Son of David.  Yet in the same portion, He is also reff. to
          Ephraim, -(Josef's son).  That is because the title: ben-
          Yosef, is NOT to be considered a title of physical descent;
          -[as in "root of Jesse"], but rather a description of "this
          Messiah's" occupation, as to "suffering", - as Yosef likewise
          suffered for his people in Egypt.  This is the type/symbol
          that the Rabbi's have used in describing the work of the
          suffering Messiah, and that is NOT out of line with
          Messianic thought as well.  The FACT that the terms are even
          seen being interchanged, would align nicely with the
          consideration that in Messianic Judaism, the two offices are
          not considered as two 'seperate' Messiah's; but rather as
          as ONE MESSIAH - who comes twice, and completes the work of
          both: Messiah ben-Yosef/the Suffering Messiah; and Messiah
          Ben-David/The Reigning Messiah.  The One dies at the hands of
          men, (still in accord with Rabbinic thought); the Other comes
          and reigns from Yerushalayim.  And we say these 'two', are
          not two, but ONE MESSIAH - and His Name is Y'shua!
... 012 Sh'ma Yisrael: HaShem - El*hienu - HaShem ECHAD! ... 210

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From: Daniel.Leavitt@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Daniel Leavitt)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 18 Aug 92 07:46:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

Mr. Carlson,
Thought I would interject a question for you.  Have you seen a book 
entitled, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"?  I bought a copy on a recent 
trip to LA and found it rather interesting.  I have read the book and 
have not found one legitimate reason not to beleive the Yeshua is the 
Messiah. 

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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Organization: University of Turku
	<2452@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM>
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:26:17

In article <2452@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM> tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Aug14113757@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> It's obvious that some of the Messianic Jews in this forum can't argue
> their position from the Scriptures alone, so they use smokescreen tactics,
> like labeling as anti-Semites other Christians who disagree with their
> theology.

Wrong. It's your turn to repent of calling MJ's like Mormons or JW's.
You are the one dealing dishonestly. And I bet you enjoyed very much 
writing about that subject "Who killed Yeshua". (NO -- please -- don't
start again !) If that isn't anti-semitic behaviour, what is ? 

> >YEAH, sure... (:-()

> Note the disingenuous response of one of the MJ sympathizers.  Mr. Levene has
> correctly noted this tactic in another message.

Levene-Albrecht -team stroke again. (:-)

> But we call ourselves Christians so as not to be religiously confused with
> Jews who have rejected Messiah Jesus.  This is both biblically and practically
> correct.

Religiously confused ? Please elaborate. Are you saying that MJ's aren't 
practising Judaism ? 

> Obviously you know that I believe this, since it is the BASIS of your change
> of anti-Semitism against me.  Let's not try to muddy the waters.

It isn't. BTW you still haven't commented on Ezekiel 36 & 37.

> Don't worry about me, hon.  I can handle myself. :-)

Don't call me "hon". YUCK.

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Levite Priest Gives Life for Sinners
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:54:23 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA


  ** Submitted for Bruce Benning by Bruce Tiffany **
  --------------------------------------------------

>Subject: Re: Levite Priest Gives Life for Sinners
>
>|>      ** Submitted for Bruce Benning by Bruce Tiffany **
>|>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>|>     The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger
>|>     of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He
>|>     must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed
>|>     with the holy oil. -- Numbers 35:25
>|>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>|>

 Rob Strom reply's:
>I'm neither Messianic nor a Rabbi, but I'll give this one a try:
  << thank you  (--: >>
>
>>I'm unaware that Christians believed Jesus to have been a High Priest,
>or to have claimed to be a High Priest.  I am aware of the Christian
>belief that Jesus' death atones for the sins of people who believe
>in him.  There's no analogy between the Jesus story and this Torah passage.

 Perhaps a reason you don't see the same analogy to Yeshua in this
 passage that I do is because you don't know the Yeshua I know.
 As you mentioned, you were not aware Yeshua was the high priest of
 the New Covenant.

>
>To the best of my understanding, the passage has the following
>meaning:  It is about the situation where Y is killed accidentally
>by the hand of X.  X is not guilty of murder.  However, because of
>human passion and old customs Y's family is tempted to try to seek out and kill>
>X for blood revenge.  To protect X, the community is required to
>set up cities of refuge.  X is, in effect, exiled to one of these
>cities, and the citizens are required to protect him.  The
>duration of exile is for the lifetime of the High Priest.
>The High Priest plays no role in this affair at all, other
>than defining, by his lifetime, the time period of the exile.
>--
>Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641

 So as you understand it, the person (X) is not required to do anything
 for the accidental taking of life. And no sin is committed to atone for.
 The term I hear, and read referencing (X) is manslaughter. In this act,
 you are saying that there is no wrong doing. No need to atone for the
 shedding of blood. Do I understand you correctly?


++ Bruce Benning_________benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: alt.messianic