From: anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje)
Subject: Re: The Disease is Cropping Up All Over, It Seems
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:07:56 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.063637.11999@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr7.184600.22771@cco.caltech.edu> anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr6.054559.29707@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>>Both of you, shut up. Reasons, if you want them, are over on the thread
>>>"What the Pro-Lifers Don't Tell You" in about nine different places. I'm
>>>sick of typing the damned thing out when you should know better by now.
>>>This is not an appropriate analogy to abortion, or to any non-genocidal
>>>situation.
>>>
>>>Followups to alt.nazi.nitwits, or alt.jdl.actionline.
>>
>>Wait a second. I can understand why a pro-lifer could easily blend this
>>into the abortion debate. I believe that many of the pro-lifers see
>>the abortion issue as just another case of genocide. A genocide against
>>unborn children. I don't agree with them, but I can understand this 
>>connection. The slaughtering of Jews, Gays, Protestants, and those that
>>Hitler determined to be his enemies may to them be just as bad as
>>their preceived genocide of (as they claim...millions of unborn). 
>>
>>Personally, I can't see how they could equate the abortion of fetuses
>>with the death of live, breathing, thinking people, in germany, or
>>cambodia, or wherever. But then I don't equate the value of a fetus
>>as being == to the value of a born individual.
>>
>>There feelings are valid, but misguided.
>
>You clearly didn't go and look where I've already said this eight
>times this week, so I'll repeat it here: Nobody has ever yet come up
>with any remote indication that this kind of garbage does them any
>good whatsoever in their stated cause. What it does do is, for reasons


So what? This *is* the way some pro-lifers feel about the subject. That
the human embryo/fetus is a human life with equal value to you or me or
anyone in the world. Many also believe that the aborting of these fetuses
is as bad as any genocidal event in human history. That's why they
keep quoting the 1 million+ a year or so. They see these aborted fetuses
as PEOPLE. It may be that nobody has come up with any indication that
their beliefs does them any good (whatever that means) but so what...
it's their belief and they ARE entitled to have them. I don't agree with
them but if you deny them the right to their beliefs, then that is about
as bad (if not worse IMHO) then denying me my right to have a safe legal 
abortion.

>you *will* have to go find on the other thread; I'm tired and I've
>had to say this too goddamned many times, make it slowly more and
>more likely that the next time a set of folks who are trying to
>commit genocide -- against whatever race they may choose -- appears,
>those of us trying to blow the whistle on them will have an impossible
>job and they will succeed in killing all the Jews, or all the blacks,
>or all the remotely uncloseted gays, or all the Arabs, or all the
>*whatever*, because nobody's going to listen to us -- after all,
>isn't it no worse than abortion and all those other things we don't
>care much about, so there's no need to worry? AKA people who claim

I am not sure where you are coming from here. Pro-lifers (some) believe
that the abortion of fetuses is genocide. Can you deal with that? Can you
deal with the fact that these human beings are allowed to feel sorrow
for the fetuses they "percieve" to be of equal value to you and I? 


>to be pro-life are hurting some people's chance for survival, while
>pro-life, this is being at best stupid, and at worst, as in Kellmeyer's

We already know they are hypocrits.

>case, actively and deliberately genocidal. 
>
>Add to this the fact that very few people have tried to suggest that
>what people say in arguments on the net save or destroy any more fetuses,
>whereas there *are* a number of survivors of the death camps who read
>the newsgroups (I don't know whether any of them follow this one in
>particular, and for their sake I fervently hope not), and they have
>already put up with more in one lifetime than anyone should put them

This is bizarre. People who are death camp survivors are able to 
take care of themselves. You don't need to "protect" them by telling
others they have no rights to their feelings. My great uncle was in a 
concentration camp during WWII and survived. He was also pro-life. So WHAT?
He had a compassionate belief that fetuses were as valuable as you or
I or any of his comrades who shared the camp with him. Nazi's put jews,
lutherans, catholics, gays, on and on to death. Some pro-lifers see the
abortionist as no better than those who put people to death whether in 
a gas chamber, in front of a firing squad or whatever. 
 
>through. There is no good that can come of the "they're Nazis" tirade.

Perhaps this is true. Perhaps we'll find that it pursuades no one. 

>There's only more pain, and more death, even than the pro-lifers are
>convinced already goes on. If they are truly pro-life, for those of

Personally, I believe that the suffering of living breathing beings of
genocide felt more pain than a first trimester fetus will even feel.
But...I'm not pro-life.

>us sometimes considered subhuman along with their beloved unborn babies,
>they will stop making our deaths more likely and our lives more scarred,
>to no purpose.
>

Your feelings are valid.

>>anne
>
>	-Nora
>
>
>-- 
>Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol yisrael.


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