HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keradwc@news.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Connery)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:22:37 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <1992Sep13.144906.13646@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>Another possible heraldry FAQ could be:
>
>"What are the heraldic tinctuures and what are they in English ?"
[...]
>Lesser used colours are
>
>PURPURE, or purple, FS37100
>ORANGE (orange), FS32473


I'd make the caveat for any such FAQ that it include known exceptions (Orange?
where /when is/was it used, even as a lesser color?

>4. Stains
>
>Unlike all other tinctures, stains are never chosen by the designer or the
>bearer of the arms. They are added to the arms as a sign of humiliation
>or punishment for an ignoble deed.

Similar to above. I've not seen evidence that these 'rules' were ever applied.
It is documented that many gentle+ families in England did choose livery colors
from these tinctures, but ...

>There is one well known rule according to the tinctures:
>
>- a coat of arms must be composed of at least two tinctures
>- one of them must be a metal
>- and a metal may not be placed next to a metal or colour next to a colour 

There are a few (obviously limited in number) single-tincture arms in English
heraldry. I'd _guess_ that they were granted _early_.

>- one of them must be a metal
>- and a metal may not be placed next to a metal or colour next to a colour 
>
>There is only one internationally accepted exception of this rule: the
>arms of the Kingdom of Jerusalem:

Actually, there are a fair-sized collection of exceptions: Hungarian heraldry,
with green (mounts) on blue, or German, with red/black, red/blue mixes, etc.
The Rule of Tincture is a good guideline for new creations, but can't be taken
as more than a mild suggestion about existing arms.
>ARGENT, a cross potent cantoned with four crosses couped (Jerusalem cross), OR

Tuomas, while it may sound as though I'm against your Tincture FAQ, I am not.
I just wanted to make sure we didn't propagate statements which were incorrect.

kdc
  kconnery@isi.com
From: steve@presoft.com (Steve Kohlenberger)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: The Augustan Society (was: Need help with family crest)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 15:56:12 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Presoft Architects

In article <1992Sep10.011409.23761@cs.tulane.edu>, eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar) says:

>In article <5652@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes...
>>Several people have already commented on the misconceptions involved in
>>talking about the "emblem of the 'craig' name", but you might also be
>>interested to know that the alleged association between particular tartans
>>and particular families is much more tenuous, and much later historically,
>>than is usually supposed.
>
>	Do you know of any good books, other then the Dictionary already
>mentioned, on Scottish geneology, tartans, arms and surnames?


You might check with the Augustan Society Library.  They do Heraldic
and Geneological research by mail.  They have more than 20,000
library items.

To quote from some of their lit they cover ... Heraldry, Vexillology,
Chivalry, Knighthood, Crusades, Imperial and Royal Geneology, Nobel
Families, Ancient History including Egypt and Rome, Medieval History
of Europe, Family Histories, Hispanic Studies, Colonial United
States; passenger and emigration lists, general world-wide research. 
The Heraldry and Chivalry Collections are some of the most extensive
on the West Coast.
 
And since they are a Federal non-profit, public benefit corp., the
research donations are tax deductable.

The Augustan Society Library
P.O. Box P
Torrance, CA 90508
Hours of operation: (310) 320-7766

I heard they will be on the internet soon...

Steve
   
 Steve Kohlenberger, PreSoft Architects      Internet: steve@presoft.com
 Novell Professional Developer                            (714) 538-6002
 Specialists in NLM and Disk/Tape Driver development for NetWare 3.X/4.X

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Medieval Castilian heraldry: help needed
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 06:16:44 GMT

One of my hobbies is wargaming and recently I bought some very nice looking
15mm knights. I usually run WRG army list #104 (Feudal Spanish 711-1350 AD)
and I would like to paint these figures into Castilian hidalgos of the era:
preferably of the era 1175 onwards.

So, as sources of Spanish heraldry are very sparse here in Finland, I would 
like to have some help according to the Castilian heraldry of the era. Any
blazons, sources etc are helpful: blazons of the contemporary hidalgos and
noble families are prefered (24 needed).

Thanks in advance,


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:41:51 GMT

Joe Ogulin asks about inheritance through females.

You're almost right. If we're talking about English laws of inheritance, an 
armiger with only female issue passes the arms to all daughters simultaneously.
This means that any sons *they* have will all inherit the arms, differencing
for birth order within each daughter's family. (The theory is that you can
tell them apart by their fathers' arms, which will be included in their
personal coats). Thus, even though your dad is the eldest son of the eldest
daughter, he is not the sole bearer of your great-grandfather's arms. Your
grand-uncle has an equal claim.

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: quasar@ctt.bellcore.com (Laurence R. Brothers)
Subject: Re: bearing [coats of] arms in America
Organization: Bellcore
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:33:12


Assuming you're not infringing on a trademark, US citizens may claim
ANY coat of arms they like -- let's say for example you want to sport
Princess Di's coat of arms differenced with a mongoose, there is no
one to stop you. Of course if you try that in the UK, I think they'll
probably draw and quarter you (pun intended :-).

Furthermore lots of Americans have received whichever that British
order of knighthood is that they give to foreigners, including Ronald
Reagan. I believe the point of US rules is that you can claim to be
anything you want, but it doesn't matter under US law, and we respect
foreign peers and royalty no more than is due any possible
governmental position (eg head of state) that they may hold. If Baron
Von Wossname of Diptheria visits Hoboken, no one has to call him "your
lordship", though it might of course be courteous to do so....

--
	         Laurence R. Brothers (quasar@bellcore.com)
      Bellcore -- Computer Technology Transfer -- Knowledge-Based Systems
       "There is no memory with less satisfaction in it than the memory
            of some temptation we resisted." -- James Branch Cabell
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Subject: Re: US Army distinctive insignia
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date: 11 SEP 92 15:12:12    

In article <BuDAus.28G@agora.rain.com>, trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes...

> 
> 
>Could you give us the names of some references on this type of military art?
> 
>(And here I always thought a "DI" was a Drill Instructor! :-)
> 
>Suze
>trifid@agora.rain.com
> 


Suze, 

I will ask my dad--he's the one with the collection!!  He has several 
volumes that contain line drawings of DI's, each book covers a 
particular branch (infantry, armor, artillery, and so on).  I will ask 
for titles for some of these, and also whether he has a ref for a 
general treatment of the subject.  Stay tuned!

Kevin
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry
Date: 13 Sep 1992 00:54:13 GMT
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: riga.docs.uu.se

In article <1992Sep10.084013.21483@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
> them. There may be ways of getting exclusive rights to a family coat of
> arms, but you will have to be creative. Forming an association that
> that accepts only your relatives as members, and registering the arms
> as a logo of that association might work.

That depends on your requirements of 'legal protection'...  Others
have suggested similar use of trademark legislation.  Note however,
that this isn't quite appropriate for heraldic coats of arms, as
their expected uniqueness comes with the verbal description of the
blazonery (sp?), not some artist's rendering of it (which may
change over time without losing its validity as a symbol for what
it represents).  If you bring your family crest to the Patent
Office (or the corresponding entity in your country), they will
register that particular image with all its detail as a logotype.
When somebody else brings another crest, it will be compared to
yours for visual similarity, but not according to heraldic rules
(unless your Patent Office has made special provisions for
heraldic registrations), and that may be insufficient to protect
against a usurper with an identical verbal blazonery but different
artistic rendering.  I could imagine the opposite problem as well.

Also, some crests are so simple (say, only some heraldic shape and
no charge of artistic significance), that they may be rejected as
logotypes due to their triviality.  However, I guess modern
heraldists want more fancy crests anyway...

The Swedish Patent Office has provisions for heraldic registration,
but only for Swedish territorial coats of arms, not for family crests.

> At least in this country, any son of a count is a count, any son of a
> baron is a baron. We don't have dukes or earls.

According to my dictionary, a "greve" is called 'earl' if English,
and 'count' when from other countries.  Is this so?  Then of course
we don't have earls in Scandinavia, as we have counts... :-)

Anyway, we used to have what we call a "jarl", which seems close to
the English word "earl", but that term disappeared from Swedish
politics hundreds of years ago I think.

As for duke or "hertig", that's now an honorary title given to
non-reigning members of the Swedish royal house at their birth,
and has so been since its introduction as such by the end of the
18th century.  Before Carl XVI Gustaf became king in 1973, his
ducal title was "Hertig av Jamtland" (Jamtland is a province in
central Sweden).  His uncle, prince Bertil, is "Hertig av Halland",
and so on.  The actual dukes who wielded political control of their
provinces were abolished around 1600.
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: frank@westford.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp.  Westford, MA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:11:30 GMT

In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:

>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?

How about two golden arches on a rectangular red field?

Frank Tredeau      Concurrent Computer Corp.
(sez me)
From: jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software Release Engr})
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Position of Helm (Was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:09:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies

Greetings to Cassie and the others here gathered
from Joseph Beckenbach!

>I once heard, long ago, that the position of the helm on the Coat of Arms
>notes something about the person who received those arms. If the helm is
>facing forward, then the arms belong to a person from Royal blood. If the
>helm is facing to the left (dexter), the arms belong to a person of
>legitmate blood of a noble. If the helm is facing right (sinister), the
>arms belong to a person of illegitmate blood of a noble.

	Arval (whoops, Josh Mittleman) should be able to expand on this.
I know little about the conventional positioning of these armorial helmets,
though many standard British heraldic references provide the recent customs.
I think that much of the writing about bastardy reflected in armory stems
from the British "decadent heraldry" of the Victorian age.  Would you trust
an heraldic writer who insists on putting skirts on the "limbs" (sic) of
his table and piano? :-)

	If there be time, I will attempt to compile a brief bibliography of
introductory heraldry books.  Meantime, those who wish to brush up or learn
some of the basics of heraldry should hit the library:  most town libraries
have at least one such book stashed away somewhere.

		Joseph 
		Joseph d'Aquitaine (in the SCA)
-- 
----
Joseph Beckenbach	jerbil@ultra.com	408-922-0600 x246
	(speaking from, but not for, Ultra Network Technologies)
Silliness forever, with a side of garlic slaw!
From: leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: marshalling (was Re: partitioned achievements)
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:15:51 GMT
Organization: Keisarillinen Aleksanterin-Yliopisto

In article <1992Sep14.212913.37219@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>
>> ...the arms of France (Azure three fleurs-de-lis or?  Or was it "Azure
>> fleury or"?  I can't recall offhand...)
>
>Both, actually.  Before the Hundred Years War, the French kings usually
>used three fleurs, but sometimes used more.  When the English kings
>started quartering that device, the French changed their arms to a semy in
>order to reduce the propaganda value of the English usage.

Hey, isn't it the other way 'round? As I recall, 'Azure, semy-de-lis Or'
is France ancient, and 'Azure, three fleurs-de-lis Or' France modern. 
Originally the English kings quartered France ancient with England
(France in the first and fourth quarters, it being the more senior of
the kingdoms).  Later the French reduced the number of the lilies to
three, and still later the English changed their version of the arms to
the modern three-lily one, too. 

-- 
Antti Leino                                     "The notion of code-switching 
University of Helsinki Computing Centre          presupposes that there are 
Antti.Leino@Helsinki.FI                          codes to switch."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:22:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.213415.14852@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>> I'm not an SCAer, myself, but it occurs to me that someone with a name or
>> nickname involving squirrels might consider using the more subtle pun of
>> a simple charge ("ordinary") in vair, rather than an actual drawing of a
>> squirrel. 
>
>That's a cute idea, but I don't know of examples of that kind of pun in
>medieval arms; they tended to be a good deal more straightforward.  It
>makes sense that they should be: They wanted to be recognized, not to be
>subtle.
>
>> "Vair" is French for a particular breed of squirrel...
>
>Are you sure?  I thought it only named the fur.

This brings up one of the more interesting mis-translations in the
histrory of fiction . . .

Vair (the fur) and ver (glass) are pronounced about the same (for that
matter the is a worm and vert--green--that sound the same way).  It is
the mistake of the ver for vair that caused Cinderella's slippers to
be made of glass.

	--Hal
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: keeshu@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Kees Huyser)
Subject: Re: The right to bear arms...
Organization: the National Institute for Nuclear Physics; the Netherlands
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:53:29 GMT

In article <DANDERSO.92Sep10152054@dante.nmsu.edu> danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson) writes:
#[...] It would seem to me that if I wished to
#represent myself with a coat of arms then that option would be open to
#me.  I am not exactly sure about how those arms would be registered so
#that my next door neighbour does not decide to represent himself with
#those same armorial bearings.  [...]

Why don't you register it as a trademark? Your neighbour can't use it then
without your permission...

Here is a free design for your coat of arms:

	---------
	|	|
	|  TM	|
	|	|
	\	/
	 \     /
	  -----

:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

--kees
-- 
* Kees Huyser   	(System Adminstrator and resident Macintosh Guru )  *
* internet: keeshu@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl		 AppleLink: HOL0397 *
* The National Institute for Nuclear Physics and High-Energy Physics, CSG/K *
* P.O.Box 4395,  1009 AJ Amsterdam,  The Netherlands,    phone:+31205922132 *
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Subject: Re: Swedish Heraldry
Keywords: Anderson Andersson Skandinavisk Vapenrulla 
Reply-To: tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:17:56 GMT

In article <18tqb3INN117@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

[ danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson) looking for his family arms ]

>However, I don't think David's phrasing above is complete, and talking
>about 'the Andersson family' is surely misleading in an 18th century
>context, as 'Andersson' was generally only a patronymic name in those
>days.  It may very well be that somebody in David's paternal line of
>ancestors had a coat of arms, but it may be difficult to find out due
>to lack of a noble name.  _Skandinavisk vapenrulla_ is the name of a
>periodical that was first issued in 1963, and which so far has published
>approximately 400 different coats of arms from the Nordic countries,
>though I believe this is for newly composed ones (I haven't checked it
>out myself, so I don't know for sure).

From a cursory glance through the 19 issues of _Skandinavisk Vapenrulla_
I own, I'd say the majority are indeed quite new, although there are
a number of arms from earlier centuries. 

ObAndersson: I found three Anders(s)ons in _Skandinavisk Vapenrulla_.
All of them quite new, quite different, and quite beautiful. Thus:
(To save bandwidth I've omitted crests and other peripherals)

ANDERSSON fraan Dalby (SVR 179/74) Per chevron <like a flight of steps>
gules and argent in base an ear of wheat gules.

ANDERSSON (SVR 309/84) Argent a cat rampant guardant vert holding in his 
mouth a rat sable.

ANDERSON (SVR 334/86) Sable two flowers of _vitsippa_(Anemone nemorosa)
argent seeded Or and in base a fess wavy also Or.

This last Anderson actually lives in Minnesota.

Share and enjoy,
tsahib.



-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

Newsgroups: rec.running
From: sch@sequent.com (Steve Hemminger)
Subject: Re: marathon first-timer seeks advice
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 20:05:31 GMT

As another first time marathoner, what I have heard is that Galloway's book
is considered too strenuous for people on a first time marathon.  Two local
authors: Patti and Warren Finke, have a book "Marathoning from Start to
Finish" that is setup for all abliities.  They also run marathon clinics
in Portland and they use a schedule similar to the original Galloway one but:

	- Beginner's do not do runs longer than 20 mi. (too many injuries)
	- Runs are at a slow pace (1-2 min per mile below race pace)
	- Long runs on trails (less traffic)
	- No interval work outs for beginners
	- Carbo loading is updated: no carbo depletion diet first

I believe other cities like LA have running clinics that have switched
away from Galloway's original plan for the same reason, too many injuries
when beginners run.  The modified plan is a trade off, you will run a
slower time than you could, but you are more likely to make it to the
starting line without injury.

A typical beginner workout starts with building phase starting at 20mi
a week, building the mileage and distance.  They add 5% more mileage per
week and build the long run up to 20mi.  With a 20mi run, a beginner will
be out a time approx. equal to the race time.  Training at a slow speed
is critical to not hitting the wall.  A 10k race is used for calibration
and instead of the long run on a weekend.

The end of this a beginner is running a schedlue like.

	S  M  T  W  Th  Fr Sa
	16 2  3  8  4   8  rest
	20 2  3  8  4   8  rest

Then they add runs at race tempo.  These are designed to get used to race
pace.
	S  M  T  W  Th  Fr Sa
	16 2  3  2T 4   8  rest
	20 2  3  8  4   8  rest
	16 2  3  4T 4   8  rest

Then taper before the race
	S  M  T  W  Th  Fr Sa
	16 2  3  2T 4   8  rest
	10 2  3  3  2   2  jog

Remember, do what works for you, and stay healthy...

-sch
-- 
  ----
 |   #|    Stephen Hemminger   <sch@sequent.com>
 |    |    Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.		
  ----
From: paulf@igloo.mips.com (Paul French)
Newsgroups: rec.running
Subject: Re: Re marathon first-timer seeks advice
Date: 10 Sep 1992 02:10:25 GMT
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: paulf@igloo.mips.com (Paul French)
NNTP-Posting-Host: igloo.mips.com

>|> 3) The marathon experiences I'm interested in, needless to say, are *first*
>|>    ones. Any posts about your first marathons and how you would have run them
>|>    differently if you had it to do over would be warmly received.

My first marathon was as a junior in high school, on about 40 miles a week,
with a longest run of 12 miles.  I started out very conservatively, with no
idea of what I was doing, sped up too much in the middle, and walked a good
portion of the last couple of miles.  If I had it to do over, I would have
had a better plan going in, some idea of a pace to run, and would have kept
it slower for the first 20 miles.

>|> 
>|> Tom
>|> New York
>
>Paul French's experience is, I feel, not relative to finishing a marathon.
>(I'm impressed). He want's a PR. Paul, was the wall for you walking?
>

My previous post was certainly for my experience in *racing* a marathon.  The
"wall" for me was slowing to 7:15 pace, a minute and a half slower than I'd
been running a couple of miles before.  Obviously any plan that calls for a
26 mile training run assumes that the act of completing 26 miles is not the
ultimate goal.  This goes back to a previous poster's question of what one
considers a "successful" marathon.  Each runner needs to define that for him
or herself.  (Despite a PR, I didn't consider my last effort successful.  I
missed both my goals; 2:30 and finishing without crashing.)

Just completing a marathon (and living to tell the tale) is a worthy definition
of success for first time marathoners.  This can be done on minimal training.
It is absolutely possible to finish a marathon with a long run of 12 miles,
though 20 a week is a bit light.  I would try to get in one long run (10+)
every week until three weeks before the race.  Getting in at least one
15 to 18 miler would help.  If the goal is to simply finish, including
stops and walking when needed, you can certainly do it.  I would recommend
going very slowly early on.  Stop at the water stations to drink.  At 10k
you should feel like you want to speed up because you are going so slowly.
(Don't do it!)  At 20k you should feel like it's no big deal to finish.  At
30k you'll start wondering if this is such a good idea; don't let it bother
you, it's normal.

Good luck to Tom.

-paulf
Newsgroups: rec.running