HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: Do non-Microsoft companies (legally) produce DOS5, Win3.1?
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:47:47 GMT

echuang@cco.caltech.edu (Ernest Y. Chuang) writes:

>I just bought a new computer which came with MS-DOS 5.0 and Win 3.1,
>but they weren't just preloaded on the hard drive -- they were in
>shrink-wrapped boxes complete with manual and floppies.  What confuses
>me is that they don't appear to be the genuine Microsoft products.
>(I already have the MSDOS 5.0 and Win 3.1 that I bought for my previous
>computer.)

>Although both boxes say "Microsoft" MSDOS and Windows, there are also
>other names on the boxes -- "MTD" on the DOS5 box, and "Electron" on
>the Win3.1 box.  The names are prominently displayed and the box
>designs are distinctly different from my "real" Microsoft boxes, so
>it doesn't seem like they're trying to disguise their origin, but I
>wouldn't have thought that Microsoft would license anyone else to
>produce their software.

>I haven't opened the shrink-wrap, since I was wondering if I could
>sell these, so I don't know if the manual or registration card would
>tell me anything more about them.  Anyone know if these are legit?

>- Ernest Chuang
>  echuang@cco.caltech.edu

These are probibly legal. Many companies re-sell DOS and Windows with
their hardware. They pay Microsoft a fee for each copy they sell.
The only disadvantage is that Microsoft does not cover these products
for support or upgrades. You have to go to the re-seller for this.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: ftw33616@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (.)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Stacker
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 02:56:23 GMT

millernw@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Neal Miller) writes:

>Gordon.Edwards@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Gordon Edwards) writes:

>>What are people's opinions on Stacker?

>>Are there many horror stories or is it generally pretty stable software?

>>Any comments appreciated.  
>>Please post, I'm sure others are interested.


>	Well, if you don't mind mashing each and every file on your drive
>into a single file by using an irreversible compression process with no
>"uninstall" feature, PLUS not knowing quite how much space you have left on
>your hard drive at any given time, hey, it's fine!  But I wouldn't put it 
>on *my* system.  I suppose if you have a tape backup for emergencies, it's 
>ok.  It won't save you as much space, but try PKLITE.  It only works on 
>some .EXE and .COM files, but it's 100% reversible if something goes wrong.

I've heard stacker is reversable.  Also, if you do a directory, it will tell
you how much space you have left, to an extent.  Okay, okay, zipped files,
arjed files, and other compressed files will take up twice as much space,
but on the general whole, the amount of space it gives you is accurate, since
it is updated.

			Frank Wang
From: ezachris@cochiti.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Stacker vs. SuperStor
Keywords: Data Compression
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:40:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Indiana University


I (too) am running out of diskspace and Stacker and SuperStor came to  
mind. SuperStor will give you compressed floppies, which Stacker won't.

Which is better?
Any difference in performance (compression ration/speed)?



Thanks in advance.

E. Zachrisen
ezachris@cherokee.ucs.indiana.edu
From: Steven_P._Oliver@bearsden.UUCP (Steven P. Oliver)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Opinions on Stacker
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:30:51 GMT
Organization: The Bear's Den BBS   (715) 839-7997

I run stacker off a scuzi drive and a esdi drive.  The claims that it
actually doubles your disk space are a bit far fetched because how much
space you pick up truly depends upon how many zip files you have on board,
but if you dont have a lot of zip files, stacker has proven to be quite
reliable for the people that I know that use it.  On the other hand if you
DO have a lot of zip files you will find very little use in using stacker
as it appears to double every file in size when you put them on the system.
The only problem I have found with Stacker is that when you use Emm386 in
hidos, Stacker will cause errors in certain games and or software.

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
From: bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: TrueView and TARGA files
Date: 7 Sep 1992 03:18:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Has anyone out there tried viewing .TGA files using the TrueView
program?  While it gets along with 24bit BMPs and 8but GIFs, I get no
cooperation with TGAs from either DJPEG or Image Alchemy.  The
documentation didn't give me any leads (There wasn't much..) so I'm
asking here.

If there's a volume of replies in mail, I'll be sure to summarise.
But it's probably something simple (Or, 'TGAs don't work with it..'...)
-- 
|Jeff Epler               Additions Welcome           c(-8 ;-) >{8-) |
| :) (=( =-] (-= Celebrating the variety of faces =-> :^) {-= |-) (: |
| >X^P 8-[                                       __ Lincoln, Nebraska|
|   						 \/ IRC Synger       |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Uninstalling Stacker.. grrrr...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:34:56 GMT

Thanks to all the people who wrote. Apparently it 
can't be done painlessly, and can only be done if you
can back up the stacker volume.





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: cs_jh@cox.nsac.ns.ca (Dr Jeff Hoyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: PC-Fastype location???
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:52:23 GMT
Organization: NS Agricultural College

I am looking for typing tutor called PC-Fastype.  Does anyone know where it 
can be had (ftped?).
Thanks
From: jjung@aludra.usc.edu (John Jung)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Suggestions Wanted
Date: 6 Sep 1992 16:08:46 -0700
Organization: University of $outhern California, Los Angeles, CA
Reply-To: jjung@usc.edu (John Jung)
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

In article <1992Sep6.182117.17817@news2.cis.umn.edu> mmoore@donald.cs.umn.edu ("None of ya Bizness") writes:
:Well if he wants to do any serious type computing he's gonna need at
:least a 386 or better.  He could slied with a 286 but that's gonna be
:slow as all hell.

  Okay, assuming he does get at least a 386, what size memory should he get
with it? 2 megs? 4 megs? 8 megs? What about the hard drive? I think 40 megs
should be more than enough for what he plans to do with it.

  How much space (both memory and disk) does Windows 3.x take up?

:If you wanna stick to the IBM name then at least get a PS/2.

  Well, I can tell what's an IBM clone and what isn't, but my friend can't.
That's why I'm just going to recommend something in the IBM line. He can just
go to any store and not worry if what they're buying will work with their
system. (The thing he has right now has "Packard Bell" on the thing, and he
didn't know he could run IBM stuff with it. [Heck, he didn't know the 3.5" disk
drive was a disk drive...])

						John

John Jung aka Junior         | "If you doubt a friend, you are not being a
Flt. Capt. on calvin [ret.]  |  friend."                     -- Groo #62
Nilgiri Level 20 Mage [ret.] | "Happiness isn't something you experience, it's
E-mail: jjung@aludra.usc.edu |  something you remember."     -- Oscar Levant
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: DON'T USE GATEWAY'S E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR TECH SUPPORT
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:23:08 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1992Sep13.074431.10452@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>  
ejhupper@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Eric Huppertz) writes:
> Well, fine, but GOD DAMMIT!  Why did it take them so long to get  
back to
> me with THIS SIMPLE MESSAGE?  Why did I have to mail them so many  
times
> before I got the above blow-off?  And how the HELL am I supposed to  
"call
> tech support" when they WON'T RETURN A WEEK'S WORTH OF PHONE  
CALLS?!?
> 
> I'd heard that Gateway's tech support was bad, but I didn't think  
it would
> be THAT bad.  I could handle waiting a day or two for a  
solution...but to
> get blown off for an entire week?  Unacceptable at best.
>

By and large I have been very happy with both my Gateway machine
and the support I got from them. The one problem I had was
solved reasonably quickly.  I did have trouble reaching them at
first (they were very busy and the Techs took a day or two to
get back to me) till I found out the way to do it.  I took out
a book and called their toll-free number. Then, after getting 
through, I told them I'd rather wait on hold then have them call
me back.  It took about half an hour of waiting (they were busy
and I can understand this) but I got through and got the problem
solved (and got some reading done).


--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: alumni107@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Borland C++ vs Turbo C++
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:16:33 GMT

Discussion of differences between Turbo C++ and Borland C++...

>>> BC includes more powerful, standalone tools for developing, such as the 
>>> excellent Turbo Debugger, profiler, etc.  BC is an optimizing
>>> (sp?) compiler,  TC is not. 
> 
>>I'm confused.  Maybe that only applies to the current release.  I bought
>>a used copy of Turbo C++ 1.0 which includes debugger, profiles, and
>>assembler, and I think it has optimization in the compiler.  I know
>>it's "Turbo," not "Borland," because I have to change "bcc" to "tcc"
>>in makefiles.
> 
> Yes, you are confused.  Note the use of the phrase "stand-alone"
> above.  He's not talking about debugging from inside the IDE.  Also,
> Turbo C++ does indeed have SOME optimization -- BCC++ has a lot more. 

You're all confused. Turbo C++ has indeed been sold bundled with Turbo 
Assembler, Turbo Debugger, and Turbo Profiler. This package was sold 
as 'Turbo C++ Professional'. I don't believe it is currently marketed 
in this way. 

Similar packages still exist for Turbo Pascal, however, called - yes, 
you guessed it - Turbo Pascal Professional.

Jeff Johnson; .sig agnostic
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: fox@rei.com (Fuzzy Fox)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Stacker
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:11:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Recognition Equipment, Inc.

Gordon.Edwards@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Gordon Edwards) writes:

> What are people's opinions on Stacker?

You should see a broad range of opinions.

> Are there many horror stories or is it generally pretty stable software?

You will see a lot of horror stories, and you'll see a lot of people
tell you it's very stable.  I am one of the latter.

Stacker is not like plugging in a hard disk (ie, plug it in, turn it on,
set some parameters, and forget about it).  However, it is much cheaper
than a hard disk and is fairly easy to use.

One of the reasons people get royally confused with Stacker is that the
install program will default to compressing the entire existing hard
disk and then swapping it with the uncompressed disk.  This makes the
hard disk "magically" appear twice as large, but software that tries to
manipulate the startup sequence (AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS) will
almost always get confused, and so will the user.

I recommend buying Stacker because it works very well.  I also recommend
that you read the manual thoroughly and try to figure out what Stacker
is going to do on your system, before you do anything with it.

-- 
#ifdef TRUE         | Fuzzy Fox                  fuzzy@netcom.com
#define  TRUE   0   | a.k.a. David DeSimone      an207@cleveland.freenet.edu
#define  FALSE  1   |
#endif              |         How's my posting?  Call 1-800-ALT-FLAME
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: hangfore@spf.trw.com (John Stevenson)
Subject: pc CAD software
Reply-To: hangfore@spf.trw.com (John Stevenson)
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 22:35:13 GMT

Gentlepeople -

I am seeking a CAD program for my 486DX pc. I wish to try out remodelling  
ideas on my house (like adding a second story) and see what the results  
look like from arbitrary viewpoints. I don't need any structual analysis,  
modellings, etc. Something inexpensive is prefered. Please email me with  
info and I'll post a summary. 

AdvTHANKSance

John Stevenson
hangfore@spf.trw.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Subject: Re: WINA20.386 - What is it?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:50:00 GMT

indaleci@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Laurel Indalecio) writes:

>After installing MS-DOS 5.0 on my system, I find that among a few
>other files, I find one called WINA20.386 in my root directory.  What
>is it?  It seems to be related to Windows, but I don't have Windows.
>I deleted it and it seems to have no affect on my system.  What was
>that file for?

It's a bridge interface which is needed when you run Windows 3.0 under
DOS 5.  If you are not running this combination (or not running Windows)
then there is no reason to keep the file around.

It was needed because of changes in the interface between DOS and Windows.

See section 4.3 of the README file which comes with MS-DOS 5.

Joe Morris / MITRE
From: digdug@iastate.edu (Doug V Tran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: VIDEO SOFTWARE
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:37:02 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

My former employer bought a Video Software Package last year called:
the PRODUCER by MICRODAN INCORPATED.  It's basically a Rental/Purchasing
software that automates the process.

However, he has been unsuccesful in setting it up and when he tried calling
MICRODAN for support, the # had been disconnected.  So if anyone knows anything
about this software package or anyting about MICRODAN please respond.

In addition, could anyone suggest another software package that would do the 
same thing?  Is there anything in Public/Shareware?

thanks,
later,
doug

digdug@iastate.edu or 515-292-3384
From: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Those Intel Processors (what is SX/DX)
Date: 11 Sep 1992 17:56:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: dab6@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas A. Bell)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, David.Norman@ttlg.UUCP (David Norman) says:

>Hello Mark!
>
>Answering a msg of <04 Sep 92>, from Mark Boltz to All:
>
>I would like to know what the "DX" and "SX" stand for. I know how they work in hard ware, but what dos DX really stand for ?????
>
>David



I don't think these two terms mean anything.
If it does, intel has not made the meanings very well known.


The joke for a while was that sx stood for 'sucks'.
I guess that means that dx stands for 'ducks'.
If there is any meaning in this, it is very cryptic.
From: gedwards@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Gordon Edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Upgrade 286 or Junk it.......
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:12:19 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <92255.29667.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>In <BuE01u.2q1@acsu.buffalo.edu>, Ron Hamilton writes:
:>
:>>I am pretty sure this question has been beat to death already but as a student
:>>I want to make the best decision....
:>>
:>>I am currently running a 286 (which has been outdated for some time).  I was
:>>wondering if I should upgrade it (if at all possible) or junk it completely?
:>>
:>>I am running VGA with 40 meg and two floppies (3.5 and 5.25) and they suit me
:>>fine but new softwares such as Windows doesn't like it...
:>>
:>>Any help??
:>
:>For starters, you can get a new motherboard.  I don't know how much money you
:>have to play with, but for running Windows on a fairly low budget, you could
:>perhaps get a 386-40 motherboard with 4 MB on board for under $350.  The other

I recently upgrade from a 286 to a 386-40 and got the motherboard for $199.
You'll probably need a new case, most of the 286 cases (I think) are not
built in such a way that the 386 board would fit correctly.  A new case with
power supply is abour $75.

You might also consider getting Stacker or something similair to increase 
your disk space if you're going to be running huge applications like Windows.

-- 
=============================================================================
Gordon Edwards, N4VPH              |         "Nothing Unreal Exists"
NCR Engineering & Manufacturing    |
gedwards@ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com  |  Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 15 Sep 1992 12:06:31 EDT
From: <REE700A@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: EISA Board Compatibility
 <1992Sep10.183339.18855@mksol.dseg.ti.com>
 <1992Sep11.131232.7977@scott.skidmore.edu>
 <1992Sep14.220211.24415@mksol.dseg.ti.com>

  Just to add on to Fred McCall's correct answer (almost)
EISA is 8.25 MHz x 4 bytes, and ISA is variable (by motherboard).
In the BIOS extended setup, there are settings for bus clock speed.  NTL,
assume that the ISA and EISA clock speeds are the same.  Assume a hypothetical
16 bit EISA card and compare it to an ISA card (in an EISA system).  The EISA
card will still be capable of faster transfers because ISA does not support
burst mode DMA, in which one data item (byte, word or dword) is transfered
per clock cycle!
  In ISA, there are multiple bus clock cycles per transfer which lower the
8 MHz bus clock's effective bus speed to something between 2 million to
4 million 16 bit transfers per second (2-4 bus cycles per transfer) as opposed
to 8.25 million transfers per second for the EISA card.
  Note that the presence of ISA cards does not interfere with the ability
EISA cards to acheive burst rate transfer.
  The big misconception here is between clock speed (Mega Hertz) and data
transfer rate (Mega Bytes / second).  EISA acheives a 33 MB/s transfer rate
(peak) by performing 8.25MHz transfers of 4 byte data items.
  ISA cards in EISA systems acheive (around) 8 MB/s transfer by transfering
2 bytes every other clock cycle at 8.25 MHz.
  ISA cards in an ISA system acheive around 4 MB/s transfer by transferring
2 bytes every fourth clock cycle at 8 MHz.  (Although some systems push ISA
to as much as 16 MHz --> 8 MB/s.)

  Jeff Andle   DoD#3005
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:32:52 -0400 
From: Yat-Pang Au <ya22+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: X windows on PC

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of X windows for the PC?
(I've got a 486-33 with Windows 3.1 and super VGA)

Thanks,
Yat-Pang
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: mfrazer@scott.skidmore.edu (Matthew Frazer)
Subject: Memory Question
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:01:45 GMT

I have a question, I'm plannong to upgrade my mother board soon, It is
currently populated with SIPPs I am almost certainly going to get a
m/b that supports simms, not sipps, because I can't find any that will
support sipps, is it possible to trim off the pins on sipps and use
them as simms or will I have to buy all new memory.

--

===============================================================================
"Diane..as we know from experiments  | I do not have insomnia! I just forget 
conducted on GI's during the Korean  |             to sleep.
War, sleep deprivation is a one way  | Matt Frazer, mfrazer@skidmore.edu
ticket to temporary psychosis, and   | 5 Stevens Way Durham NH 03824
I'm working on a three day jag."     | Skidmore College Saratoga Springs 
-FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper       |          New York 12866
===============================================================================
                              Be Seeing You!
===============================================================================

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: tab@tfs.com (Theresa Breckon)
Subject: Scheduling (reservation) SW suggestions wanted
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:29:28 GMT

Anyone want to give some friendly advice on some scheduling software.
I plan to have 3 reservationists taking reservations at the same time.
I would like to only have one CPU (486 probably), and 3 monitors.
I doubt this computer will be used for much more than the reservation
system, although eventually they might get some draw/write software
to do flyers, memos.
Obviously the 3 reservationists would have to have their schedules
updated simultaneously so they wouldn't be stepping on each other's
appointments.

I've had a product called Time Vision recommended to me. Anyone
else have a recommendation they'd like to offer?

Also, has anyone heard of a SW package that combines basic payroll
functions with basic scheduling (appointments)?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: b130778@hp9000.csc.cuhk.hk (MA NGAI LING)
Subject: ** Help!  Can't boot from hard disk ! **
Organization: The Chinese University of Hong Kong
Distribution: World
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 13:33:20 GMT

Dear netters,

        This is posted on behalf of my very ;-( husband.  Can someone
please help?

        The problem started when he tries to boot up his 486 PC compatible.
(1)     Power up, BIOS loaded, memory check, A:, B:, C: drives checked,
system then go back to check A: and hang.

(2)     Boot up from A: drive and able to access everything on C: drive

(3)     use scan 8.6v93  --> no virus found

(4)     used PC Tools 7.0, discovered invalid FAT entry.  Fixed.

(5)     Reboot, same result as step (1).

(6)     Reboot, and enter SETUP.  Found the following messages:

        "Diskette Drive 1 Failure"
        "System configuration invalid.  Review first page"

**  From the above observation, my husband concluded that the hard disk
configuration is incorrect/corrupted.  Current settings are:

	HDD : Type 47, cyl=1024,HD=12,PRE=-1, LZ=1024, Sec=17, size=102
	
*************************************************************************

	Can someone suggest what the setting should be for a 105MB HD?
Or what could be the problem?  Please note that he can boot from A:
and can see C: once the machine is running.

	Please email reply as I don't read this group (no flame please!).
Thanks a million in advance. 

Ida
Xref: sparky comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:12309 comp.sys.ibm.pc.programmer:382
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.programmer
Subject: Looking for better spawn function for Borland C++
From: srlncnc@gopher.dosli.govt.nz (Chris Crook)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 20:46:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Survey and Land Information, New Zealand


I am programming using Borland C++ and I am looking for a bigger and better
version of the spawn function.  What I want to be able to do is run another
program and give it nearly all the available memory, then return to my
original program more or less exactly as I left it.  Obviously I will have
to page the original out to disk, or extended memory, or somewhere, and
bring it back in again afterwards.

Can anyone point me to any advice, books, source code, or libraries that
implement this function.

The only method I can see at the moment is to write a small shell
program to sit under the main program and do this function when
activated by an interrupt call (? intercept the DOS EXEC function).

Any other suggestions would be welcome!

Thanks in advance
Chris Crook

Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc