From: michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Info on pre-Columbian North American native writing systems wanted
Date: 9 Oct 92 03:29:24 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA

In article <1992Oct9.020701.4814@u.washington.edu> twarner@carson.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:
>michaelb@cse.fau.edu (Michael Rogero Brown) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Oct8.053736.24785@u.washington.edu> twarner@carson.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:
>>>	I am looking for sources of information on native North American
>>>writing systems, particularly the Micmac pictographic/symbolic system and
>>>the Cree syllabary. I have Barry Fell's "America B.C." where I was stunned
>>>to read that these writing systems are widely known and were, according to
>>>prevailing academic opinion, invented by European missionaries and then
>>>taught to the native people. (supposedly because the systems were easier
>>>for native people to use and not because the native people were already using
>>>them.)
>>WHAT prevailing academic opionion??  Any book on the Cherokee or on the 
>>Southeastern Indians give credit to Sequoyah for creating the syllabary.
>>Which is the first time in recorded history of a writing system being
>>created by a non-literate people.
>
>Ummm, I believe the Cree and Cherokee writing systems are not the same.
>I was referring to the Cree system, not the Cherokee, in this paragraph.
>
Well, I had never heard that the Crees had a writing system.  I had
know of the Cherokee and thought maybe you had possibly gotten them confused
somehow.  I know someone who got the Cree and Creeks confused.  Had to work
real hard to straighten them out.

>>>	Fell, by the way, has rather convincing comparisons showing the
>>>similarities of the Micmac system to Egyptian Hieratic writing and the Cree
>>>syllabary to medieval Basque. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or
>>>have any opinions about this? Or know where I can find out more?
>>>	Although Fell does not discuss it, this makes me wonder also about
>>>the credibility of the historical theory that the Cherokee syllabary was
>>>invented by a Western-educated Cherokee and then taught to his people,
>>>also supposedly because the syllabary was easier for Cherokee speakers
>>>to use and not because the Cherokee were already using it. Does anyone
>>>know more about this topic or where to go for more info?
>>>	
>>>	I'm working on an essay for the student newspaper here along the
>>>lines that Columbus Day should be a day to think about the pervasiveness
>>>of dogma, even (especially?) in academia. I would also welcome any thoughts
>>>on this subject in general.
>>>A
>>>Tom Warner
>>>twarner@u.washington.edu
>>>	E
>>I can't believe anyone with any bit of intelligence would believe Barry Fell.
>
>You're the one that mocked me for my question about Cree when you didn't know
>the difference between Cree and Cherokee.
>
Wasn't my intention to mock you.  My apologies.
I should have reworded this before posting it.  Its just that Fell is one
of those authors who has some very wrong ideas that he presents and many
people accept.  The only problem is such ideas are usually totally incorrect.
 
>I don't "believe Fell." I read his book, I look at the evidence he presents,
>and I try to figure it out as best I can. I think he's right sometimes and
>wrong other times, but I'm open to a fuller understanding.
>
I wasn't sure if you had accepted Fell.  Some of what he writes (ie of pre-
Columbian contact by whites in NA) is possible, but alot is nonsense

>>Fell is not accepted by anyone who knows these matters.  The Cherokee sylabary
>>(not Cree) was created by Sequoyah, NOT some white missionary.  The problem
>>with Fell and people like him is that anything original that the Native 
>>Americans created, ie stuff like the mounds, the Cherokee syllabary, anything
>>advanced like this is instead attriputed to whites.  Either whites who came
>>over before Columbus, or white settlers.  Personnally I think that is 
>>insulting of the creativity of Native Americans (and I'm white).  Fell is 
>>only a few motches above Eric Von Danniken.  I wouldn't be suprised that people 
>>back in the 1800's believed the Cherokee syllabary was created by whites.
>>Back then they believed the mounds were built by a pre-contact advanced white
>>race.  Indians were too lazy in their opionion to create them.  There existed
>>a myth of the Mound Builders, that was disproven in the mid-1800's, but 
>>some people probably still believe in.
>
>I have received similar responses by e-mail. I think it's an interesting and
>complicated topic and I thank you for noting that you, like me, are white,
>which I do think is an important aspect of our understanding.
>
>I'm going to post a more general discussion-item on this subject because
>I'd like to see what people think. I, obviously, don't think that it's
>insulting to Native Americans to suggest that there may have been visits
>by Europeans and North Africans prior to 1492. I don't think that's the 
>equivalent of suggesting Native American culture is Old-World derived either.
>But I'll say more on this in my post.
>
Well there is the possiblity of pre-Columbian white contact in NA.  What I
find insulting to the Native Americans is the idea presented that THESE people
(or ancient astronauts or white survivors of Atlantis or whatever) are the
cause of the advance cultures that had existed in NA.

>>If you want to do an article on the pervasiveness of dogma, with a great tie-in
>>with Columbus Day, read _Inventing the Flat Earth_.  Don't recall the author,
>>but it show that the idea that Columbus proved the earth was round when every
>>one else thougth it was flat was accually an idea that orginated in the early
>>1800's.
>
>I'm looking more at ideas that are widely accepted without skepticism,
>not obviously wrong ideas like the one you describe.
>
The ideas presented by Fell and others like him aren't widely accepted without
skepticism.  There do exist refutations of such ideas as him.  The just have
the problem of many skeptical works of getting little wide acceptance.  There
is a good 1hr tv segment called "Myth America" which examines many of the
things that Fell and others put forth.  You can see it occasionaly on the
The Learning Channel, or as part of the "Terra X" series on The Discovery 
Channel.  That was my first exposure to Fell.

Since I am also interested in Southeastern Indian cultures, I am familiar with
the various ideas of the "Mound Builders", including the myths created by the
whites to explain them, as well as the real stoty behind them.

I look forward to you posting.


-- 
<<                                                               >>
<< Michael R. Brown    CS Graduate Student-Florida Atlantic Univ >>
<< Internet: michaelb@sol.cse.fau.edu                            >>
<< BitNet: m_brown@fauvax                                        >>
From: kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:35:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Please Help
Organization: HP Western Response Center