From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Social perquisites of non-slaveholding whites
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:04:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.192205.24356@cco.caltech.edu>, morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes...
>casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:

Well, we went almost a day without hearing from Mr. Murphy.  I thought for a
moment the economic recovery was finally underway, and the investment bankers
had gotten back to gouging the third world for interest money on their food
and medicine.

Apparently not...

>> Jones, you are sounding pretty arrogant these days, and arrogance is not very
>> conducive to an exchange of views.  
>> Were I to speak to you [in the same demeaning in dismissive tone you use
>> with everyone else in this newsgroup], you would no doubt come back
>> sarcastically calling me "massa", as if I had committed an unspeakable
>> racial slur.
> 
>Nah, I'd think of some other astute putdown. I already used that one.

Putdowns indeed seem to be more your forte than reasoned argumentation, that
much is clear.  "As water to a fish and air to a bird, so is contempt to the
contemptible." - Blake

>>Your attitude, as evidenced "crystal clear" above is that you have a monopoly
>>on the truth and the rest of us are idiotic dupes of a centuries old conspiracy.
>>Given that that is the case, and that you refuse to concede even a shred of
>>validity to opinions which differ from yours, why do you waste your time on us?
> 
>I'm not sure. I guess it's the pure sadistic pleasure of doing intellectual
>battle with unarmed opponents.

I see.  Your contempt for us is equalled only by your own glowing opinion of
yourself.  Did it ever seem odd to you that no one else seems to share it?

>>>My "purpose", like yours, is to express my views.
> 
>>No, as your statement above says, your purpose is to impose your views on us.
> 
>I'm fluent in English, thanks.

True, your knowledge of English is (barely) better than your knowledge of
history.  At least you don't make up words as often as you make up facts.

>I don't need you to put words in my mouth.

No you need me to put *sensible* words in your mouth.  What you said was that
you were going to "straighten us out".  That sounds like using verbal coercion
and brow-beating to me.

>>>If you perceive an agenda on my part, speak up and identify it, as well as
>>>where it's undermining the veracity of my assertions.
> 
>>OK, how's this (from your previous post):
> 
>>>Colonialism and slavery in fact are the fundamental catalyst for everything
>>>Western Europe achieved subsequent to their commencement.
>>>Jones
> 
>>This statement:
> 
>>1) Is a complete trivialization of the history and culture of about 1/5 of the
>>world's population.
> 
>Well, they're just a minority. They just have to learn to live with that.
>"Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea."--Mahatma Gandhi

Nice quip, but it has nothing to do with your statement.  Apparently you do not
deny trivializing my history and culture.  Fortunately, I am not a racist, so
I have no wish to reciprocate on this putdown.

>>2) Is a gross and utter simplification which shows contempt for the intellect of
>>those you are having a discussion with and makes you look silly.
> 
>I would not so much as mention your intellect, much less question it.

I can see why you would not mention it...then someone might notice how it dwarfs
yours.  Look if all you want to do is trade epithets and one-liners, and make
rather hollow sounding proclamations about how clever and smart you are, why
don't you just send email to yourself?

Again, a quip rather than any engagement of the point made.  Apparently you do
not deny making a gross and utter simplification of history either.

>>3) Seems like it could only be made by someone pedalling an ethnocentric world
>>view and/or a certain political ideology.
> 
>As opposed to disinterested observers like yourself, completely free of 
>ethnicity and political orientation.

Nice try.  So now you admit that you are pushing an ideology and worrying about 
the truth later.  Now you are just accusing me of the same.

Look, your statement above would be roughly analogous to the following one:

Exposure to the white man's culture and society (one of the benefits of slavery 
and colonialism, for which blacks should be grateful) have been the fundamental
catalyst for everything achieved by Africans subsequently.

This is the kind of racist crap advanced by some lunatic fringe elements.  It
appears you are on the opposite fringe.

>>4) Is not true.  Or rather it is such a sweeping generalization, it probably
>>cannot be falsified or proven since the terms are so poorly defined.
> 
>I'll be happy to help you with any terms you're having trouble with. You just
>have to ask nicely instead of foaming at the mouth.

That's the problem with rabies...it's contagious.  You bit me and now I'm
infected too.

OK.  Please define:

1) Colonialism.  Try to differentiate it from wars of conquest and pillage which
have been practiced all over the world since the beginning of recorded history.
2) Slavery.  Do you mean all slavery, including enslavement of Africans by
Africans which predates African enslavement by Europeans?  Enslavement of
Europeans by other Europeans?
3) Western Europe.  Does this include nations like Switzerland, Sweden, Poland, 
etc. who did not amass overseas colonies?  Does it include the Slavs and Greeks 
of southern Europe who were themselves being colonized by the Turks at this
time?  Does it include the Italian merchant cities who were mainly involved with
Mediterranean trade and already quite well off?  Does it include Spain and
Portugal who were driven into obscurity by their empires?
4) Everything Western Europe achieved.  Is there any achievement which you feel
could have been made even in the absence of colonialism and slavery?  If not,
had the Europeans not practiced colonialism, would modern medicine, agricultural
techniques, etc. which have materially improved conditions around the world
not have been invented?
5) The commencement of colonialism and slavery.  See 1) and 2) above.

>>Why can't you disagree without being disagreeable?
> 
>'Cause it's no fun.

Oh I see.  Since you think this group exists purely for your enjoyment, maybe
we should change its name to alt.gratification.self.jones.murphy

Or maybe alt.love-affair.self.jones.murphy.

You know Jones, from your attitude, you probably would have made a good slave
merchant.  I'm glad to see from your .sig that at least you've found the next
closest thing...


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch