From: silver@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (silver)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Crusades?  Again??
Date: 25 Jul 92 23:31:03 GMT
Organization: The Tally Ho

[people claiming that Christians were involved in the Crusades, then they
 were called 'not real' Christians, then someone said that Christians tend to
 take responsibility for good stuff, but deny bad stuff]

>When I read this my first impulse was to blow off your comments as those
>of an idiot.  But, then I thought there may be those out there that would
>take you seriously.

We can only hope that, in the spirit of civilized discussion, everyone would
take everyone seriously.

>I could ask you the same question.  Why are you, Graham, willing to take
>credit for all the "good things" that atheists have done (if you can mention
>one), but where are you when we speak of the 20 million people massacred by
>Stalin, which *more* than outweighs the suffering caused in the Crusades?

Graham never claimed to take credit for anything good any atheists have done,
nor did he say or imply that he would. In fact, I find it unlikely Graham
would take credit for anything anyone besides Graham ever did. (good or bad).

>This atheistic barbarian killed more people during his Reign of Terror than
>even Hitler could have hoped to accomplish.  Yet, you are surprisingly silent
>when it comes to taking credit for the tyrannical monster that your
>philosophy helped to spawn.
>
>In fact, Stalin was acting more in line with the precepts of atheism and the
>ideas of "social evolution" than the Crusaders were acting in line with the
>precepts of Christianity (Jesus' teachings).

No, he was acting in line with the precepts of some philosophy I don't have
a cool 'ism' name for... atheism begins and ends with the non-acceptance of
god. whether or not atheists believe in evolution, social evolution,
communism, capitalism, or even cheese is up to each individual atheist after
that.

>If I suddenly went berserk and started shooting people from atop a building
>"in the name of Buddha", would this make me a Buddhist?  No, for I would not
>be acting in accord with the teachings of that faith.  It takes more to be
>a "Christian" than merely calling yourself one.  You must take the teachings
>of Jesus and the apostles to heart.  One thing that is definitely *not*
>taught in the NT is genocide, or "war in the name of God".  War may be
>necessary to defend one's home, but wars of conquest are definitely *not*
>sanctioned.  That's why no *rational* person could come to the conclusion
>that the Crusaders were acting in accord with orthodox Christian teachings 
>and beliefs.  Since their actions belie their claim of being "Christian", 
>it is their "being Christian" that I seriously doubt.  No doubt they 
>*thought* that they were "Christians", but as Matthew 7:23 says "In that
>Day there will be those who will say to Me 'Lord! Lord! Didn't we do many
>wonderful works in Thy Name?' and I will say to them 'Away from Me, you
>workers of iniquity, for I never knew you!'"  (paraphrased)
>
>The Crusaders, for all their "good" intentions, were "workers of iniquity"
>from my point of view.  Since Jesus specifically denounces those who do
>evil in His name, I cannot see how these so-called "Christians" could ever
>seriously be held up as an example of Christianity by any rational person.

Every last one of them pointed to some other part of the Bible which did,
in fact, seem to allow, nay to encourage or even mandate, their actions.
It's common for 'Christians' (real or otherwise) to use a subset of the Bible
which suits their purposes... everyone who honestly believes their life to be
guided by the scriptures and who strives to follow the word is a Christian 
(or so I thought), it's just that many take someone else's authority on what
the word says or else use the subset of the word that they seem to understand
or accept most... 
Stalin did not act under some 'atheist Bible,' there is no such thing.
Christians claim that their lives are guided by some word or another, but
atheists do not. I am not guided by the same book as Stalin...
I do not take responsibility for his actions. I do not take responsibility for
anyones actions but my own, and then I take responsibility for the good along
with the bad. You have chosen to take responsibility for the actions of those
who follow the word of the Bible (i.e. the nice folks who build hospitals,
do charity), but fail to take responsibility for the actions of those who
follow the word of the Bible (hey, Torqemada, what do you say?)... at least
I'm consistent.
Not that consistency is a property of atheism, either, it's something I 
personally wish from myself. 

>please send replies & follow-ups to:  Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com
sent, as well as posted.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism