From: yohan@cutlass.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The "God Does Not Exist" Proof
Date: 7 Apr 1992 18:24:32 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: cutlass.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <5APR199221430456@rosie.uh.edu>, cosc143u@rosie.uh.edu (91F9774) writes:
>In article <4APR199209370640@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes...
>>In article <3APR199213560273@rosie.uh.edu>, cosc143u@rosie.uh.edu (91F9774) writes...
>>>My child reaches for the hot stove.  I say, "That's hot you better not 
>>>touch it."  My child then touches the hot stove.  I could have chosen to
>>>turn off the stove or to remove the child from the area but I didn't.
>>> 
>>>Am I evil or am I acting in the childs best interests?  This viewpoint
>>>does not require a religious belief to hold it (I'm not noted for being 
>>>religious).  
>> 
>>I'm not so sure you're acting in the child's best interests here, but
>>let's assume for the sake of argument that you are.  If you are, this
>>is because this is the best way you have of getting the child to learn.
>>If, however, you were an omnipotent being, you could pass the relevant
>>information to the child directly, without the necessity of letting
>>the child get burned.  (In fact, you could have created your child with
>>all the knowledge he or she needs to get along in life in the first
>>place, and not needed to teach anything.)
>> 
>My point was... you cannot teach responsibility.  I can tell my child:
>"That stove is hot.  If you touch it, you will be burned."  I can put
>a piece of paper on the stove and show my child that it begins to smoke
>and then bursts into flame.  My child now has all the information needed
>to know that if they touch the stove that they will be burned.  But some
>children *still* touch the stove.
>
>It could be that (speaking from the argument now) free will and the 
>existance of evil is necessary to find out who is truly good.  The crux
>of the argument is that being omnipotent (etc) god would know in advance
>who would turn out good or evil and could stop them.  But, even if you 
>can predict the future with 100% accuracy, that future must take place
>for your prediction to hold.  It could be that the this God of your 
>argument is aware of all of the problems that will happen during the 
>umpteen odd billion years the universe will exist but cannot change them
>because he/she/it already saw that they *would* happen.
>
>This is of course a version of the "greater good" argument.  God allows the
>evil in the universe for the greater good of creating a large amount of 
>"good" people.  
>
>As an aside, from what I have read of the Bible and in my discussions of
>the bible with more religious friends, my comment about "sycophants for
>God" is harsh but accurate.  The view the well read one's held was of an
>eternity of worshipping and being with god.  No fishing.  No movies.
>No pop corn.
>---
>Stephen McLeod
>The Eternal Student


First of all, it is very possible to teach responsibility.  I'll use a simple
example like yours:

Dr. Chemistry says, "Do not pour Sulfuric Acid on your skin."
Student says, "Why not, oh wise and great one?"  <sucking up never hurts>
Dr. Chemistry says, "Well, infintessimal peon, this is why...."
Dr. Chemistry pours some concentrated sulfuric acid on several layers of
cardboard which shortly after have black ringed holes in them.
Student says, "Fantastic, oh Great one, you are truly a wonderful teacher."
Dr. Chemistry says, "Thank you, oh insignificant boot-licker.  Now keep in mind,
that cardboard is an organic compound, cellelose (spelling bites), and your skin
is also an organic compound.  The effects will be similarly disasterous to your
skin."
Student says, "Thank you, oh Great one, I shall never stray from your advice."

And I have essentially, never strayed from his true intent.  I have never put
sulfuric on living tissue.  I did once put a dilute mixture on a callous
<spelling>, and went about it very carefully.  Now before you get down on me, I
treated the chemical with respect, and didn't get hurt.  Yes, me, free will and
all, was given knowledge, used that knowledge effectively, and am today better
for it.  I have never purposefully hurt myself or anyone else with sulfuric acid.
Most importantly, no evil came of it.

After you're done crying over this beautiful little tale, you might want to give
mankind a little credit, and stop likening them to children.

As an aside, has anyone ever noticed how Christianity preaches how low,
worthless, and insignificant mankind is, but then turns around and has the
arrogance think that something as vast and infinite as a God would care about man.
I'm sure this is going to make alot of people angry.  I honestly don't mean for
it to; it isn't a slam, just an observation.  Yes, I've heard a number of
responses for this one too.

Jon Newton - Sophomore in Biochemistry - Agnostic