From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: European Social democracy vs. American Capitalism
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:32:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.211653.19643@ncar.ucar.edu> gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
>ab> Alex Bunker
>gs> Gary Strand
>
>gs> In any case, all the countries which have your style of socialism have 
>gs> other parties of lesser or greater socialistic orientation, those parties 
>gs> with a decidedly less leftist bent being ascendant for several years now, 
>gs> at least. 
>
>ab> The last european parliamentary elections say the Eurosocialists take
>ab> power away from the Christian Demos. CDU in germany is in BIG trouble
>ab> and the SDP is gaining popularity etc..
>
>  The EP's future isn't as rosy as it used to be, is it? Anyway, the heyday
>  of Eurosocialism was 1980-1984, when you folks had all those peace marches
>  and unilateral disarmament (for the US) discussions, and you promoted the
>  idea that the US and the USSR were morally equivalent, ie, both were equal-
>  ly legitimate governments, and so on. They've finally wised up, to a de-
>  gree. It remains to be seen if Europe will shake off its fascination with
>  socialism before it has no choice but to do so.

You are mixing up the Wacko Green party movement with the social democrats.
The likes of Helmut Schmidt Mitterand etc.. never sided with those wackos

>ab> There are more NEO-NAZIs in the USA than Germany.
>
>gs> Can you prove this? In any case, US Nazis have never gotten significant
>gs> political power, which can't be said for German Nazis.
>
>ab> I am talking about NOW mr stuck in history.
>
>  So am I. Prove that (per capita) there are more neo-Nazis in the US than
>  there are in Germany. No, Jesse Helms is not a neo-Nazi.
>
>gs> The US is declining, as are all other countries, in direct proportion to 
>gs> the amount of State control over the economy.
>
>ab> The child poverty rate in the us is 30X that of sweden. and 20X that of
>ab> germany. Oh gee you think this is some coincidence? NOT! these governments
>ab> have waged a WAR ON POVERTY instead of a war on drugs.
>
>  So has the US since 1965 or so. We've spent *trillions* of dollars on social
>  welfare programs. This year alone the cost of these "entitlement" programs 
>  will be in excess of 400 *billion* dollars. That's $400,000,000,000. In-
>  deed, those areas that receive the greatest welfare assistance (like Wash-
>  ington, DC) tend to have the worst poverty and the worst crime. How do
>  these facts fit into your equation?
>

still why 30X the child poverty rate of sweden?
why lowest in developed world in medical coverage?
have you read the "Comparing America to other countries
statistics.

>gs> "Wise and well thought out government intervention" is oxymoronic.
>
>ab> Germany and Japan both do it.
>
>  So why is Germany running budget deficits, and why has the Nikkei stock av-
>  erage dropped from 39,000 to ~14,600, the greatest single erasure of wealth
>  in human history? Hmmm?
>
>ab> Kinnock made one of the biggest seat gains for a political party in a
>ab> single election in British history. The cons. just had too strong an
>ab> incumbency factor.
>
>  That simple, eh? Tell me, was Kinnock running on the same far-left Labour
>  platform as was used in the 1970s, or has all the really bizarre leftist
>  stuff been dropped?

OF course that bizarre left stuff HAD to be dropped it was not social
democracy it was marxist lunacy. It became so bad that the 
real social democrats in Labor (ME type people) had to leave
and form thier own party. (The social democratic party) that is
passed and Labor has return to the mainstream eurosocialist fold.

>ab> She is angry because they LIED on radio free America in order to encourage
>ab> 100s of hungarians to needlessly lose their lives in order to be a small
>ab> thorn in the USSR side to help the US with geopolitical interests elsewhere
>ab> in the world.
>
>  That's realpolitik for you. Anyway, what could the US have done besides of-
>  fer token words of encouragement? Ignored the Hungarians? Tell them that
>  they had no chance and might as well give up? What?

YES not lied to them in order to encourage them to give up their lives
in a futile battle by convincing them it was not futile.

>ab> OH WOW THANKYOU USA FOR NOT ENSLAVING US!!!!!!!!!!
>
>  You're welcome. Most other countries haven't been as generous.
>
>gs> Again, your narrow view prevents you from understanding that when you say
>gs> "most countries", you mean "most Western European countries".
>
>ab> Japan, NZ, Australia, Brazil , Chile, Venezuela, Namibia are of course 
>ab> ALL european countries. OH my Europe is BIG!
>
>gs> Your last four are rather odd additions to the list. Brazil's Collor is
>gs> in *deep* trouble, Chile managed to do quite well under Pinochet, com-
>gs> pared to other South American countries run by the military, and Venez-
>gs> uela is currently in a decidedly non-democratic state, courtesy Fujimoro.
>gs> And why do you include Namibia? Why not include Cuba, Angola, Somalia?
>
>ab> HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH HA HA HA HA!!!!!! Fujimori President of Vene-
>ab> suela HOH!HO!HO!HO! HA HA AH! Fujimori is President of PERU! Are you by
>ab> any chance Dan Quayle posting under a pseudonym?
>
>  My mistake. I forgot to revive with Vivarin. Anyway, no need to get snotty.
>  Your own posts could use some heavy proofreading.
>
>ab> I was referring to the socialist OPPOSITION in Brazil whose presidential 
>ab> candidate Lula de Silva got 49% in the presidential election, and with
>ab> Collars troubles is set to take power next time.
>
>  The case is really that the socialists are prepared to step in because Col-
>  lor has screwed up and pissed off the Brazilians, not that Brazil wants a
>  heavy dose of socialism, right? Indeed, the Brazilians are so angry that
>  they're about ready to take anyone over Collor.
>
>ab> In Chile the left is ascendant.
>
>  BFD.
>
>ab> Namibia has recently got its independence and has had a UN sponsored el
>ab> election which the left won by a landslide.(SWAPO)
>
>  BFD.
>
>ab> The Social Democrats also won the first free election in Nigeria, Africa's
>ab> most populous nation.
>
>  BFD.
>
>  Quite frankly, what Chile, Namibia and Nigeria do to themselves is of no
>  concern to me. They're free to screw themselves all they want. When you're
>  reduced to touting ex-and-current-3rd-world countries to make your point,
>  you've dropped pretty far.

But you are missing my point My point is that this political norm
that I am discussing is not a Europena political norm but A GLOBAL ONE
I know these are meaningless countries geopolitically that is not the
point. You made the argument that blue collar workers being socialists
was a Europen thing and I am showing that you are wrong by citting 
examples from around the world.

>--
>Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
>strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF


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