From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:15:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.015101.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift) writes:

: 
: >> I can't understand why is the Australian Government so afraid of
: >> taking a stand on 
: 
: > Because they are more clever than you are.
: 
: That wouldn't happen to be a threat?

Is that all that you can do?

: 
: >> this issue ?  It has been almost two weeks since the children's
: >> disappearance.  They could be anywhere in the world.
: 
: > They are already in Malaysia, safe and happy.
: 
: [fx: extra special sardonic and condescending speech]
: And how would you know they are happy, or safe?  I doubt it.

On what basis! Because they are in a Muslim nation. What sort of logic is that.
You condemn my judegement but you produce another judgement youself. Are you
the only one right here.

: 
: >> I can't understand why should the Malaysian court ruling have any bearing,
: 
: > They children are Malaysian citizens.  Even in many countries, citizenship is
: > decided by the Father's citizenship, not the mother's.
: 
: Wrong.  Try again.  They are Australian citizens, and of dual nationality.
: They were born in this nation which is the determinant on citizenship.  At

You are absolutely wrong. Not in Malaysia, Singapore and U.K.

: birth, the parents can decide whether to change the citizenship of the
: child under certain circumstances (e.g. when the child is born on holiday
: in Iceland, maybe!  Usually when the citizenship is not the same as either
: parent.)
: 
: > Australia must respect the sovereignty of the Malaysian government
: 
: While in Australia, no one has to respect the laws of the Malaysian Govt.
: Believe it or not, we obey our own laws thank you very much!
: [Shock, horror!]

The children are already in Malaysia. I do not see any difference in visitation
rights and travelling by plane to Malaysia. The time taken is the same. As far
as the children are concerned, they are with their father, and they would go
where their father bring them, willingly, unless they object strongly. Even
children can object to being brought to a boring place. Try that to your
9 year olds. 
	Since they come willingly, there is no basis for kidnapping. You or
the mother cannot put words in the children's mouth, especially when they are
already 9 years old. It is a different case if they are much younger but we
are talking about this particular case.

: 
: > and its citizens.
: 
: [flame on]
: 
: Well.  We may respect you as other humans, but not as arrogant egotistical
: pigs.  I know you are not the stereotypical Malaysian, and I know thousands
I have never eaten pork so I cannot be the pigs. You are the pigs.
: better than you.  You are the odd one in the bunch to blurt such utter
: jingoistic crap about Malaysia and it's laws and how Australians should be

Prove it. The other Malaysians are not as clever as I am to see through 
your devious ways.
: subservient to those laws.
: 
: [flame off]
: 
: > Rule of justice should prevail. Not biased and inconsistent rulings.
: 
: Australian justice has been mocked by the prince.  He says Australian laws
: should not apply to himself while in Australia, nor his children while in
: Australia (and who are Australian citizens).

If he has broken any law, the Australian government must take court action.
Not being judged by obviously biased people of lesser mind.

: 
: Would it be improper for me to say that I can break your laws in your country,
: because I am not a resident of your country?
: 
: Graphic Example:  I am on trial for drug trafficking in an ASEAN nation (not
: Malaysia) which has a mandatory death sentence for convicted criminals.  o
: I say, "Sorry, your laws don't apply to me"?
You would be tried according to our laws and YOU SHOULD NEVER COMPLAIN.
Do not apply double standards again.
	We put you on trial, we do not make judgement off-hand,with preconceived
ideas of something without any proff whatsover.

: 
: >> the children are Aust. citizens living in Australia and the natural father
: >> has agreed to the Aust. court's decision.
: 
: > How could you say that.
: 
: Quite easily.  It is a fact.

Your perception of fact is very strange especially when you do not even know
a lot of cases which could be changed. Is this the highest standard that you
can bear? EVen I do not claim that what I say are facts unless I have read
the documents and talk to the people concerned personally, which is rarely the
case.

: 
: > If he had agreed, he would not have taken the children out of Australia,
: > would he?
: 
: Agreements can be broken, as the prince did.

THAT was the whole point. There may be basis for breaking the aggreements and
it can be allowed by a court of law.

: 
: > What logic you use. 
: 
: "Logical" logic.
: 
: > What proff have you got that they are indeed Australian citizens, when
: > their father may not be.
: 
: Because they are Australian-born children.  The issue of the father's citizen-
: ship does not enter the matter.  Where you are born determines your citizen-
: ship.
: 
: > Does Australian immigration law provides automatic citizenship to
: > children whose father is not a citizen?
: 
: Wrong.  You are confusing "nationality" with "citizenship".  Citizenship can
: usually only be of one nation, and only of one nation at birth.  In this
: case, the children are Australian citizens.

Since you are wrong about citizenship laws in other countries, you statement
cannot be trusted.
	I would prefer to get it from other people. You are obviously biased
and not knowledgeable enough.
: 
: Nationality is passed from parents.  The children most certainly have dual
: nationality, but that is not relevant in this situation.
: 
: I know, as I have dual nationality (from my parents) and citizenship of
: Australia.
: 
: >A lot of countries do not, even when their mother are citizen.
: 
: As I said, it is the nation of birth, not the nationality of the parents.
What you imply is not universal and not true all the time. Lessons from United
Kingdom, Malaysia and Singapore.

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean