HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (Was Re: Who Is Afraid Of Patricia Schwarz?)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:12:51 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.12 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Sep15.142731.15632@fns-nc1.fns.com>  vib@fns-nc1.fns.com (Victor Bur) writes:
> In article <1992Sep14.172941.31644@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>
>
> >I do understand the pride taken in skills, knowledge or actions -
> >those are something one gets as a result of his/her efforts.
> >Something which was given to you at birth such as brown eyes or
> >your name is something you did not fight for. If a choice was
> >given to you between rotting in a concentration camp or keeping
> >your name, then it would be a different story.
>
> Oleg,
> it's a good statement, but I think you are on a thin ice here.
> For example, how would you handle such a toughy question like:
>   Are You Proud to be a Jew?
> In general case, the answer is "yes", but according to the above quote
> there is nothing to be proud about.
> Right?
>
> Best regards.
> Victor

This is a quite different case, though. If one is proud to be a Jew,
then it is because (hopefully) one fought for it, was ridiculed at,
insulted for being one and still remained one.
If someone is proud to be a Jew and is doing nothing for the Jewish cause
and is hiding his Jewish identity when it was convenient that is a cheap
pride, and I scorn at it. Note that the key here is actions - thoughts,
pride, intentions are cheap.
Feel free to substitute Jewish by Russian, Ukranian, or whatever
in the above paragraph.

Oleg
From: pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Enter: RUSSIAN PUNK ROCK
Date: 12 Sep 92 00:53:12 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

Hi!

As usual, somebody wrote something like this:

>  If sometime the book about history of ExSoviet underground
>  culture will be published, I'd like to find there a chapter
>  titled "Pank rock". In memory of one of the pioneers of
>  Soviet pank rock, M. Naumenko, whom I knew personally since
>  his visit to Novosibirsk in 1987...

If the book with _such_ a title appears, I'll regret the death
of Dr. Goebbels, who was so fond of making fires of books.

PUNK ROCK it is! I ne pereviraite bolee eto svyatoye slovo,
ibo inache zashibu.

	Po bulvaru chernyj voron
	yedet farami svetya
	yesli chem-to nedovolen
	on vozmyot tebya ditya

	Ya odelsya sel na poezd
	vyshel v pole vzyal topor
	postoyal v govne po poyas
	zaderzhal volny napor

	Grustno stalo i tosklivo
	no spokojno na dushe
	ya lezhal i kushal slivu
	vsiu v parshe i v anashe

	Tut konetz moim kupletam
	zhizn' prozhita nesprosta
	ya by zanyalsya baletom
	da nelzya ooyti s posta

Behold the power of the Russian Verse! By the way, does
anybody save me know the author? 

-- 
Thus spake Kalmoth the Vile, Slayer of the Seven Pigs of the North.
From: leonid@thyme.uchicago.edu (Leonid Andreev)
Subject: y6eu B ce6e XACAHA! ( was: Re: Russian poetry )
Organization: University of Chicago CILS
	<1992Sep7.192029.7028@cco.caltech.edu>
	<1992Sep08.141151.24896@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:10:09 GMT


Gospoda!
It sort of makes me wonder, what's going on in this group.
While all the progressive people all over the world are just
enjoing the abscence of Mr.Mutlu, some people down here 
seem not to be able to survive without having a proper Mutlu
to blame. So they spend their young lives in looking for 
new Mutlu and they obviously succeed in it. First they got
this poor old guy - I mean academician Shafarevitch. Who
has said or has written something anti-semitic, nobody 
knows for sure, what was it, nobody read this bloody book
of him, but everybody had to take part in the discussion:
how to expell him from somewhere or how to punish him in
some other way. Why do you guys care so much?.. Even if he 
really does hate jews - there's nothing to do about it. 
OK, then they found, that it is not a big fun to blame 
Shafarevich, 'cause he, unfortunately, doesn't look like
hi is a "permanent resident" of soc.culture.soviet, so
he doesn't take part in the discussion himself, so there
is no chance to catch him cheating or something like that.
But then they luckily found this poor lady - Ms. Patricia
Schwarz. For example:

bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:

>   To became really good follower of Mr. Mutlu, survivor of Armenian 
>   atrocities, Ms. Schwarz needs to acquire good and long signature,
>   as long and vague and messed and mostly meaningless as her postings (IMHO).
>
>   It's yet an open question if she can pretend to the title "Mutloid of the Year",
>   - competition is very strong - ...

Well, some of her postings are somewhat unadequate - when she
manages to find something feministic in Master&Margaret etc.
But note, that there's nothing offensive for anybody in any 
of her articles. While most of the followups are. So who is
Mutlu here? My suggestion would be, if you really need 
somebody like good old Mutlu to fight with, if you really
want your life to be a combat instead of life itself, just
look for Mutlu in yourself. And kill him.






--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Leonid S Andreev,    Center for Information and Language Studies,  |
|  (312) 955 5012        University of Chicago, Chicago IL, 60637.   |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian poetry
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:38:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep10.063849.15506
Distribution: usa
Organization: Conspiracy International
Originator: verbits1@husc9.harvard.edu

In article <1992Sep09.143832.41641@watson.ibm.com> bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy) writes:

>
>What else?
>Do not try to narrow all you read to your own bad childhood 
>experience and cut everything else. Open your eyes.
>Russia is really different from US - you should change your scales.
>Maybe you should try to forget all that shit about homo, hetero, etc -
>it only makes mess in your head.
>
>
>	-igor


You are right. All the homo/hetero stuff in Russia is very different and
much simpler. I'm not going to say anything serious, just tell a story
which was told to me by a friend of mine, Igor Zalizniak (I have his leave
to mention him).

So, Igor went one summer to a "strojak" in Sibiria. It was just when 
perestroika was starting. He was the "brigadir" of the "stroiotriad".
He was unloading something from a truck, taking his time. Some 25 meters
from him two people from this far-away village were sitting on a log
and reading "Komsomolka". Igor was amused listwening to them, since
they were reading an article about AIDS (these articles just appeared in sov.
press at that time). Then one guy (say Petr)gets up and aproaches Igor.
P.-Where is the doctor of your party? We have a scientific question for him.
I.-Well, I really don't know where he is, but maybe I can answer your question?
P.-I don't think so, it's purely medical. What is G-O-M-O-S-E-K-S-U-A-L-I-Z-M?
I.(Gets red in the face)- Well, you see, sex between a man and a woman is
normal, but there exists an abnormality, when men make sex with each other,
this is called homosexualism.
P.(Shouts back to his fellow):-Ti slishish ,Vaska, okazivaetsia, gomoseksualism
eto ochen prosto! Skazhem, ja tebia v popku ebu, tak eto ono samoe i est
gomoseksualizm. Vot vechno zhidi-vrach slova pridumaiut, prostoi chelovek
ne razberet!


This was just a story, Igor is responsible if it is not true.



AAaaaaaaaAAAAAaaAAAAaaaAAzzZZZZZzzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZzzzz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 19:31:34 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <2507@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
>in article <1992Sep08.142500.53741@watson.ibm.com>, bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy - that's me) says:
>
>[about Master & Margarita]
>
># They read it different way - one more work of fiction,
># magic realism, conflict of Pilat, very amusing, all that labels, etc.
># 
># The same as when Ms. Schwarz make referencies to Pasternak - 
># kogda Pasternakom i ne pahlo (when there is no any connection
># to real Pasternak).
># 
># They cut it "po ih merke" (according to their tastes 
># and level of understanding). It's unavoidable.
>
>[....]
>
>Oh, no!
>
>Again this shit about "enigma of the Russian soul" and that 
>the foreigners will never-never-never-never-never understand 
>the Russian culture because of its superiority.

Wrong. You put your words to my mouth.
What I tried to say (and thought  I said) was that anyone 
who tries to read Bulgakov should know a lot of information
to understand subtle and weel hidden meanings.

Where is "enigma"? Be careful with your accusations next time.

>Talking about Bulgakov, I think that he should be expelled (post factum) 
>from any honorable organization he belonged to, because it is a
>well-known fact that he was antisemitic :-)

I didn't know that, but suppose for a moment - he was. And so what?
He wrote a talented book - that's what you should worry about,
not the membership of this corpse or suppressed gaiety of another
corpse that was primery concern of other net writer-not-reader. 
Should we stop reading Bulgakov also? Knut Gamsun?
>-- 
>  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
> *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
> *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
From: muh@physics3 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Statues: Re: Cut the crap, Jarmo
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:20:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics3.berkeley.edu

In article <1285@my.sm.luth.se> medev@my12.sm.luth.se (Alexander Medvedev) writes:
>
>Talking about statues... What about that nice piece I've seen in Turku, Finland?
>It was a figure of Lenin in the center of the city (or should I say a bust).
>Now, it's time for Jarmo to course to Turku and see if they have any communism
>in Finland left!
>
>							Alexander

Was anybody in Penn State (State Colledge, PA)? U nih tam stoit znakomja do
boli figura budenovca. To est', verojatno zadumyvalos' chto-to drugoe, no
okolo 10 x i ne x-Sovetskih grazhdan edinoglasno, ne sgovarivajs' reshili:
Budenovec. Okolo nee dazhe kakaja-to rzhavaja khrenovina stoit, ves'ma 
pohozhaja na Maxim.

Predstavljaete, v serdce imperialisticheskoi Ameriki, mozhno skasat'
v gnezde: Phyladel'phii - budenovec. Zdorovo nashi rebjata rabotajut.

Yury
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:7183 talk.politics.soviet:7747
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad
Date: 7 Sep 92 12:38:59 GMT
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) writes:
: avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
: 
: >>Russians willingly blended with other nationalities in the Baltics, for
: >>example, without asking the permission of Baltic nationals.
: >
: >They did never issue yellow passports for minorities, though.
: >Blending basically means accepting alien culture by means of
: >coexisting and intermarriage. As for repressions -- need i to remind
: >that many top-level VChK officials were Baltic nationals?
: 
: Wasn't there a line in a Soviet passport in which the person's nationality
: was told? I was asked my nationality in addition to citizenship when 
: I applied for visa to the Soviet Union. So don't tell me Soviet authorities
: didn't distinguish people by their nationality.

Just of curiosity I took from my files a russian visa blank-sheet, I have many
of them and SUPRISE SUPRISE  on the first line is asked the nationality
and on the second line citizenship. So the russian authorities are very
much distinguishing people by the nationality?
 Regards,
Jarmo Ryyti
: 
: >--vadim
: 
: Janne Kivela"
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian authors & books
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:54:18 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>From: "Yury M. Mukharsky" <muh@PHYSICS.BERKELEY.EDU>

>In article <NVmyqB1w165w@halcyon.com> novost@halcyon.com writes:
>>  Does anyone know if A. Solzhenitsin's books have been published
>>in Russia?  In particular, has <A Day in the Life of Ivan
>>Denisovich> been published?

>It was not only published, it won Lenin's prise. I'm serious. It
>was after XX party congress.

It didn't win Lenin award, it was only officially suggested for it.
It was right after _XXII party congress.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Cultures and Literature
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 15:32:49 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <1992Sep11.140956.29546@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>In article <Lq2wqB1w165w@halcyon.com> novost@halcyon.com writes:

>>  1)  How many republics were in the former Soviet Union?
>>  2)  Name 5 Russian Authors.
>>  3)  What is the role of Lenin in Russian history (simply)?
>>
I asked all this questions my American coworker right now.
His answers:
1) Don't know. somewhere between 15 or 20
2) Don't know.
me: but Tolstoy? Dostoevskiy?
he: yes, this names are in the air, but to name myself - no
3) Leningrad was renamed back to St. Petersburg. Lenin was dictator - no, 
i'm not quite familiar.

>One of the most shocking experiences in my first year in US. I was going
>to play rugby here for a first time. We had pooled cars and on the way to
>game had a little chat. One of the players told me that he is from
>Argentina.  After that he asked do I know where is it. His question
>sounded like it is quite usual for people to know nothing about Argentina.

4) Argentina - somewhere under the xSU (on the place of Afghanistan and
Mongolia)

>But now I became a very accustom this situation and I guess It is quite
>understandble. Just try to decide is it right time to buy a home or it
>is wise to wait some itime until prices will reach bottom ? 
>I guess you will care little about Argentina.

Yes, but the explanation maybe slightly different. 

The same coworker is very knowledgable in world weather 
and world weather maps (no connection with his profession). But he is not
interested in politics or political map. Other person,
who is interested in world events gave very good and detailed
(especially for outsider) analysis of political situation 
in xSU (I'm not sure I'd be able to make that good analysis now myself 
after being a year abroad).

In US people don't have "dobrovol'no-obyazatel'nyi" stream of
information, and as world events have rather little and distant 
impact on the live in US (not to mention fact oriented, 
not analytical or long trends approach of mass media) they don't need 
to follow them. 

So they often are good professionals, very good in their hobby - 
and have 6th grade level of knowledge of other things.

"Uzkiy specialist podoben flusu - ego polnota odnostoronnya" 
					Kuzya

"Shirokiy specialist podoben rastekshemusya maslu - poskol'znut'sya mozhno"
					Annushka
>-- 
>Aleksey Y. Romanov
>
>DISCLAIMER: The views expressed are entirely my own and do not
>necessary reflect those of my employer or anyone else

	-igor

DISCLAIMER: All views expressed above are entirely description or
information and do not have any connection with flaming or 
other fire-hazardous activity
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: DEMOCRATIC Estonia
Date: 5 Sep 92 20:22:42 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Sep04.205410.31971@watson.ibm.com>, oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
> In  <1992Sep4.223612.1@cc.helsinki.fi>  thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:


>> But everyone that has been dwelling two (I must check that?) years in
>> Estonia can apply to citizenship. Some knowledge of Estonian is also
>> required.
> 
> They can apply, but can they get it ? Last I heard, and please correct me
> if I am wrong, those who applied did not get it. The majority of Estonian
> vote (how democratic) turned down those applications. Now, you have to
> excuse me, for I think I am relying on Erland Sommasgorg's info here. So,
> please feel free to kick it if its wrong.
> 
> Oleg

The second question posed in the Estonian referendum in the end of june was 
about whether the new (5000) applicants of citizenship of Estonia should 
- exceptionally - aqcuire right to vote in the first parlamentary elections 
of the Estonian republic. The proposal was turned down with a tiny 
majority, unfortunately.

The vast majority of applicants will be granted the citizenship (at least
90 per cent, when not 95 or more, but the process will take several
months). Excluded from the citizenship will surely be those involved
in the activities of the red army and KGB, and it goes without
saying, gangsters and such criminal elements.

With best regards,

Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Hands off Shafarevich!
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:47:54 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:16:24 GMT
>From: Alexei Stolboushkin <aps@SONIA.MATH.UCLA.EDU>

>> I have read his book ...

>which one do you mean? Many of us have read ``Algebraicheskaya teorija
>chisel'' of Borevich&Shafarevich.

I guess he meant ``Osnovy algebraicheskoj geometrii'', which is
Shafarevich's alone.

>could somebody volunteer to look the book through, and
>to publish a review, including quotations, if needed.

It's a very good idea, I second it.
I'll may be even take a time myself...

>Shafarevich was not elected a member of
>the USSR Academy of Sciences after his scientific achievements (which are
>undisputable; Golod-Shafarevich theorem is just one example).

Golod, btw, wasn't even granted the doctor's degree for it (I mean Soviet
``doktor nauk'' degree, which is next nighest after PhD).

D.
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 6 Sep 1992 07:03:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep6.055933.23562@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>
>
>Even my best Russian girlfriend has attitudes about women that
>could not be described as "feminist." Most of the problem is not her
>idea about her right to a career, she assumes it. But I think the
>attitudes about violence against women in Russia are decades behind
>what we have learned to think in America. Mostly I blame this on the

What number do you have in mind? 50%, 75%, 100% of Russian women
beaten by their husband. I may not know enough about America, but I 
know something about Russia. My worst estimate will be 20%. that is
assuming that in strata of society, I do not know about, 100% is beaten.
Assuming uniform distribution, top estimate is about 10%. Top estimate.
(As somebody pointed out I do not need to ask for correction from
dear netters :) ).

BTW, rape is either worst purnishable or second worst crime in
Russia (I'm not considering treason ..., just what is call crime in
common language).


>to have a discussion with any of my Russian friends (or European, for
>that matter) without hearing very outdated and proven false stereotypes
>about rape and spouse abuse, especially the ideas that the victims are
>to blame for the crimes against them.

Are you sure you ever spoke with Russian? If yes where you dug this
piece? I _never_ heard that victims are to blames ... (well at least
among about 100 or so of mine friends).

Yury
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Russian Culture through California sunshades
Keywords: all of the above
Date: 8 Sep 92 10:08:48 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep6.062055.23980@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>Re: what is "mainstream" vs. "underground" Russian culture.

>Please let's not forget that some things were allowed to be published
>or recorded or performed,
>while others you were sent to prison for merely possessing or witnessing
>or maybe even just praising to the wrong person.

>Our definition of "underground" includes anything in the latter
>category, which most definitely means "Dr. Zhivago"!

>-patricia@cco.caltech.edu

Your definition is very bad or you don't understand what 
Doctor Zhivago is about. There were people sent to a jail or executed
for reading Trotsky. Is Trotsky underground culture ? :):):)

Misha.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:7526 talk.politics.soviet:7890
From: GLL@fnal.fnal.gov (Gregory Landsberg)
Subject: Re: The least nationalistic nation
Organization: SUNY at Stony Brook
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:39:46 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Sep9.181643.8704@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu writes:

> To find a racist stereotype humorous is part of the self-hatred that
> comes along with being a victim of this stereotype.
> 
> I know a lot of Jews who laugh at antisemitic jokes. I couldn't
> understand that, but some of my Jewish friends said that this was part
> of Jewish self-hatred. 

I always was  admired by your  ability (or capability)  to build phrases of
ready-to-use ``stamped'' sentences,  like just cited one! Like ``History of
CPSU,''  save God! Where  did you  learn this?  By, the way,  this topic is
somewhat close to Freud's works -  have you ever read Freud or Jung or even
any  psychology  books? Why to  attribute  your own  thoughts  to the whole
nation? Just because you are ``child  abuse and rape survivor?'' Our little
brave  s.c.s hero! Do  you think that it is  really very interesting to the
rest of the world? Most  of the people here have  rights to name themselves
as  ``child abuse  and  brain rape   survivor,'' so  what? Do we  say it to
everyone on every corner? Is it a real thing which one should be proud of?

Did you ever think about the fact that the humor is also a part of Culture,
as well as the sense of  humor is a part of  cultural education? And people
tend to laugh  on the  stereotypes, just  because the  stereotype is FUNNY!
(That's why a lot of your postings  are funny, and you really don't realise
it!)  And  the  laugh at   stereotype  is one  of the  way  to  combat this
stereotype. Would you  blame Chaplin (sp?) for  laughing at fascism? Do you
blame  Soviets for  laughing at  the  idiotic system  which we  created and
supported up to recent times?

People tend to laugh at things which  are not allowed. That's why there was
so many   political jokes  in USSR,  that's  why it's a  lack of  them now.
Probably, that is the  reason why American humor  is so unfunny to the rest
of the world  (too much  allowed :)) and so  sexually  oriented (cf. recent
witty posting comparing sexual laws here and political laws there).

And  people often  make laugh  at  themselves - it's  so  natural! And your
friend which told you  about selfhatred was  either joking or fool (maybe -
both :) ).

Relax, just relax and -  laugh! And you'd see  that there is a lot of funny
things all around  which are much  more interesting  than the rape problem,
feminists' narrowmindness and Gogol's sexual orientation! Read Bulgakov and
ENJOY it  and don't  ask  questions who  was the  prototype of  Margaret or
Voland - is it really so important? Actually there was a really true phrase
in one of your recent posting - that the Russian literature is the greatest
in the world. Maybe it's not completely true, but at least it is one of the
greatest! So read, just read and don't write books! *grin*

Keep smiling,

Greg
(A Jew who laughs at antisemitic jokes)