HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scoggin@opus.ee.udel.edu (John K Scoggin)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: How do you end an interview?
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:15:23 GMT
Organization: Delmarva Power & Light Company

In article <30JUL199208481420@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> nadsap@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Beacon) writes:
>I had an interview yesterday that became rather uncomfortable for me.  In the
>middle of the interview, one of the interviewers told me what the salary 
>range was (and it was way below anything I would consider).  At that point
>I knew that I wasn't interested in the position any longer, but I wasn't
>sure how to end the interview.
>
>The interview continued for another 10-15 minutes and they finally asked if
>I had any questions or comments.  I basically said the scope of the job was
>not what I was looking for.  Should I have mentioned the low pay? Should I
>have stopped the interview as soon as I knew I was no longer interested?
>If so, how would you do that?
>
>Thanks
>Mike
>NADSAP@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU

I would never call an interview to a halt - you never know, they may have
another opening you might be interested in.  When it comes to pay, I
believe that honesty is best - tell them what your expectations are.  The
HR weenies have very little idea what talented people cost, but the tech
people doing the interview (hopefully) should ...

	- John

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John K. Scoggin, Jr.			Email:   scoggin@udel.edu
Supervisor, Network Operations			 scoggin@delmarva.com
Delmarva Power & Light Co.		Voice:	 302-451-5200
P.O. Box 6066				Fax:	 302-451-5321
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Your milage may vary.  Void where prohibited by law (or common sense).
From: rem@public.BTR.COM (Robert E. Maas  rem@btr.com)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: TEN INVALUABLE RULES FOR THE SUCCESSFUL CONTRACTOR
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:43:12 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

Oops, I was sleepy last night when I wrote this:

<<A contractor is supposed to be an expert, so if he/she doesn't give
any advice he/she is not doing his/her job, he/she is more like an
entry-level employee than a programmer.>>

The last words should be "than an expert" or "than a contractor",
rather than "like a programmer".

P.S. Many years ago I decided that "heesh" was a wonderful word to
replace "he/she", but I got so many complaints (use "co" instead of
inventing your own word; just use "he" and everybody knows you mean "he
or she"; "heesh" puts the man first, better to use "shee" to put the
woman first; better just intermix "he" and "she" randomly or
alternately; better always say "she" to balance centuries of always
saying "he"; etc.) so I gave up and switched to "he/she", although last
night I overdid it a little in my sleepy state.
Xref: sparky misc.jobs.misc:5340 misc.jobs.offered:9057 ne.jobs:635
From: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com (Buzz McDermott)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,ne.jobs
Subject: Re: Observations at software firms
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:33:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NEC America, Radio Software Dept

In article <1992Jul22.210440.15681@mv.mv.com>, kgg@mv.mv.com (Kenn Goutal) writes:
|> One of the original questions was "Where do programmers go after they
|> turn 35?".  One of the first answers was that they fall prey to "programmer
|> burnout".  While true, I think this is slightly misleading.
|> 
|> ...stuff deleted...
|>
|> Bottom line:  *On average*, somewhere between 30 and 40 your brain turns
|> to mush, to put it baldly.  More specifically, it doesn't work as creatively,
|> nor does it have the stamina it once had;  single-bit and multi-bit failures
|> become more common as brain cells die and are not replaced.  The muscles and
|> joints of an athlete have a slight advantage in that the cells to get 
|> replaced, but in general the body doesn't work so well after a while, either.
|> 
|> Of course, there are exceptions.  But they are not the rule.
|> The problem is not specific to programmers.
|> 
|> ...<more verbage deleted>...

This is not a 'FLAME', but I have to disagree strongly with the contention that 
your brain turns to 'mush' between 30 & 40.  I also disagree with the notion
that you lose ceativity.  I don't believe my brain has turned to mush.  I still
learn new things every day at work.  I'm still learning new systems.  For
example, I am now moving from plain C programming to C++ and OO programming.
Learning new things is still as much fun as it ever was.  I'm sure that I'm
not quite as mentally 'quick' as I used to be, but I still get by.

I contract, now.  So do a lot of other "over 35" programmers I know that 
didn't want to go into management.  Many went fully independent and formed
their own small consulting companies.

Of course, I'm only 38, so I still have two more years to 'mush out' :-).

============================================================================
Buzz McDermott                   Internet: buzz@rsd.dl.nec.com
On contract to:                  NEC America Radio Systems Division
                                 Richardson, Texas
============================================================================
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: drudetb@infonode.ingr.com (Ted B. Drude)
Subject: Re: Technical Writer:  What is the current market like?
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:15:11 GMT

In article <527@oodis01.af.mil> marcusen@oodis01.af.mil (Contractor Chad
Marcusen) writes: 
>
>	A friend of mine has a chance to interview for a Technical Writing 
>	position and asked me what the current market is paying.  Here are her
>	qualifications:
>
>		BA in English
>		Masters in Literature
>		7 years teaching Jr. High English
>		Editor of 2 published technical manuals
>		Editor of a college magazine
>


Depending on who's doing the hiring,  the most important qualification
listed is likely to be # 4 above - previous editing experience with tech
literature. Interviewers will want to see a portfolio that includes excerpts
from those manuals and the person's own writing samples as well.

>	How much might she expect as a technical writer? 
>	How much might she expect as an editor?

According to the professional association's (STC - Society for
Technical Communication) latest salary profile information for salaried
members: 

Median technical writer/editor salary in the US - $37,000.
Medial technical writer/editor salary in Canada - $34,000.

That is for a writer/editor with 7 years experience, working in the
computer industry,  having at least a BA in English or technical
communcation, working in a major metropolitan area,  who is about 39
years old.  Overall salaries vary, of course, depending on sex,  region,
years of experience, education level (MAs make more than BAs and PHDs), and
industry (computer industry pays more).

Consultants/independent contractors do a much bigger gross, as you would
expect. 

Median gross income for tech writing consultant/contractors is $48,000
in the US. 

For all the details of the survey,  contact:

William C. Stolgitis
Executive Director
Society for Technical Communication
901 N. Stuart St.,  Suite 304
Arlington,  VA  22203-1822
(703) 522-4114

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: hnoble@polari.online.com
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix (206) 328-4944
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:07:23 GMT

I'm an old programmer who's still programming after 30 years.  I enjoyed
IBM 650's & 360's and am still having fun in unix and c on workstations
and a cray ymp.  Over the years I had to do a few dances to keep out of
management, but its been worth it.  I just want to keep working in a
technical area and I've been able to.  From reading previous postings
on this thread, I assume I've been lucky in not encountering a
management that's hostile because of my age (yet), although I've had
a number of fights because of my radical politics and tendency to
organize unions.

In my group at, as the say, a major airplane manufacturer in Seattle, there
are a number of other grey hairs & beards..

-henry
hnoble@polaris.online.com

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: TEN INVALUABLE RULES FOR THE SUCCESSFUL CONTRACTOR
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 06:42:14 GMT

In article <18656@bunny.GTE.COM> rc05@gte.com (Ramesh Chandak) writes:
>3. Don't give advice

I find this one rather strange, I haven't contracted directly before,
but I consulted for numerous customers while working for a small
consulting company. 
I can't remember any cases where a customer was upset about a
suggestion. Customer asks for X, you realize that you can generalize
the code to do X as well as doing W Y and Z with little extra effort,
you suggest this to the customer, they are very happy for getting
more and call you the next time they need something.

>10. Look the part
>    A contractor is a farily expensive purchased commodity, so do your
>    best to dress in an appropriate professional manner at all times.

In my experience no "real" companies care about dress codes, most
professional programmers I've met make my style of dress look conservative.
Although I guess they might have alot of IBM/Cobol type clients who
expect programmers to look like used car salesmen :)

-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: wxu@spock.ecs.umass.edu (Wei Xu)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: EasyResume(TM) Resume Writing Outline/Sample
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:05:16 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

This is a testing.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: vrajanik@ccad.uiowa.edu (Rajanikanth Vemulapalli)
Subject:  Salaries in Canada
Organization: CAD-Research, University of Iowa, Iowa City
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:06:04 GMT

hi,
I would like to know the salaries for MSCS with 2 years
experience in Canada.  I would also like to know the salaries
for a MSCS without any experience (entry level).

Thank you in advance
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: jswitzer@afit.af.mil (Chip Switzer)
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:04:45 GMT

They branch to a new address?



Chip Switzer                            "A witty saying proves nothing." 
jswitzer@afit.af.mil                              -- Voltaire
From: davis@ee.rochester.edu (Al Davis)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Job hunting: Playing it smart
Date: 21 Jul 92 14:26:51 GMT
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science

In article <Brq4tK.A1v@acsu.buffalo.edu> diachun@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU (Justin D Diachun) writes:
>The big loser for trying to get a job seems to be to pick some
>company that you really, really want, not checking if they are
>known to be hiring now, spending a lot of time writing a great
>cover letter to that company, sending it off with your resume to
>the Human Resources Director, and waiting for a response.  .........

It worked for me in '72.  (Things were bad then, too.)


>maybe a card saying "thank you, we will put you on file and let
>you know" meaning you are going to be ignored.

I had one of these, too.  "No openings now, but...."
A little over a year later they called me.  They made an offer I couldn't
refuse.

al.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: aalis@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (A. Alisson)
Subject: Salary for Veterenarian 
Organization: San Francisco State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:30:46 GMT


Sorry if this is the wrong group, but how much can you expect a
UC Davis school of veterenary graduate (Master) to earn ?



Thanks in advance

- Ali -

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 23:00:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa

ccoprbm@prism.gatech.EDU (bruce mccullough) writes:

>MY .02 gOTTA BE A FREAKIN NUT NOT TO WEAR A SUIT TO AN INTERVIEW.
>DAMN SURE WOULD EXSPECT MORE FROM PEOPLE IN OUR LINE OF WORK OR JUST ABOUT
>ANY JOB RELATED TO PEOPLE WHO POST TO THE NET. sOMEONE FLAMED ABOUT US
>NOT LETTING POOR PEOPLE HAVE THE CHANCE-(not) IT'S UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL
>TO MAKE IT IN LIFE(ALTHOUGH HELPING THE WEAK SHOULD SOMETHING WE ALL DO).
>tHIS IS AMERICA YA KNOW YOU CAN DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING YOU WANT.

Candidate A...

    wears a suit
    cannot formulate proper sentences in English
    gets the keyboard shift key mixed up

Candidate B...

    wear tie-dyed shirt and jeans with knee holes
    writes well in English
    can type properly

If the job does NOT require any need to wear a suit as a part of the
nature of the job (i.e. is not meeting customers) then Candidate B
will get the job.

If the job DOES require a need to wear a suit as a part of the nature
of the job (sales, marketing, etc.) then NEITHER of the above candidates
will get the job.


I do agree that the individual should be responsible for their own
well being.  As long as the world (mis-)judges people based on what
they wear instead of their qualifications, then people do have to
deal with that.  But the people who, in their positions as those
making such judgements of other, choose to consider irrelevant
attributes are the ones who keep on making the world a place that
is really rotten.

The problem not whether the job seeker is wearing the suit.
The problem is the manager that inappropriately judges someone
on the basis of the suit or lack thereof.
-- 
/***********************************************************************\
| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
\***********************************************************************/
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dibruno@vu-vlsi.vill.edu (Rich Rauscher)
Subject: KPMG Peat Marwick?
Organization: Center for Discrete Math. and Theor. Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:13:33 GMT

A friend of mine will shortly be interviewing with KPMG Peat Marwick.
Does anybody have any information or opinions on the firm ?

-Joe

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: oneil@odin.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Re: Need suit and tie for a job interview ??
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:07:15 GMT

kgg@mv.mv.com (Kenn Goutal) writes:

>In article <1992Jul12.001823.1215@disk.uucp> tony@disk.uucp (tony) writes:
>>	Good points!    Appearing for an interview where you are the only one
>>present who is overdressed could put the hiring personnel on guard.  As some-
>>one suggested earlier in this thread, your potential employer might expect
>>you to have done enough research about the company to know how they dress.  If
>>you don't know they may feel you haven't done the basic groundwork anyone has
>>to do before they go look for a new job.  If you dress any old way you feel
>>like, it could jeopardize your chances of getting hired because they'll take
>>one look at you and "know" you're not going to fit in (whether that is true
>>or not).

>Okay, so how do you suggest doing this "research".  Going to the site,
>crawl to the top of a nearby hill in cammies with high-powered field
>glasses, and watch while everyone arrives and departs?  How do you tell
>which ones are in the group with which you are applying for a job?
>E.g.  How do you pick the right dress code from among S&M, MIS, SW/Eng,
>and electronic technicians?  In a given organization, the latter might
>dress alike, or they might not.  In any case, a rather resource-consuming
>task for not-very-conclusive results.  Or is there a better way?


Here's a novel idea!  Most employers want you to be FOCUSED when you apply
for a job.  It makes you look more mature if you narrow your focus.  So,
what you do is decide, "I want to apply to be a software engineer in Company
X."  Then you do your research by finding out what SW/Eng in Company X is
responsible for.  You might even visit the Company X SW/Eng department in 
order to find out how these folks dress.  You network if you can't get in.
Find someone at Company X who will clue you in on how those folks dress.

When in doubt, ASK!  If anything, it makes you at least look interested.

>-- Kenn Goutal
>kenn@mv.mv.com
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mrose@kali.stsci.edu (Mike Rose)
Subject: Re: Pet Peeve "No E-mail" Was (Re: Software Engineers - Applications Programming (MA/AZ) CIS (Recruiter))
Reply-To: mrose@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
	<MROSE.92Jul20101211@kali.stsci.edu>
	<1992Jul20.150320.28529@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:04:05 GMT

On Mon, 20 Jul 1992 15:03:20 GMT, lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) said:
>In article <MROSE.92Jul20101211@kali.stsci.edu> mrose@stsci.edu writes:

>>When I post openings, I accepts email resumes because I want to make
>>it as easy as possible for anyone to send me a resume.  But it's
>>whiners like this that tempt me to put "no email" so that I won't get
>>their resumes.

>Its amazing how cocky a recession can make employeers.

I have no problem with employers that don't accept email resumes.
From the perspective of a job-seeker, it reduces the competition for
the job since apparently sending a letter is too much trouble for many
people, so those who do send the letter are a much smaller pool.  From
the viewpoint of an employer who does accept email, it means those
other companies may bypass a person who we may then be able to hire.

Finding *good* people is always hard, recession or no.  That's why I
encourage email resumes, even though it means my mailbox will be
filled with resumes that don't meet the requirements from people who
would probably not go to the trouble of snail-mailing me a resume.  


>Suit and tie required because we feel like it, no e-mail accepted because
>we will get enough via snail mail anyways, what next requiring potential
>employees to work several months for free :)

The hiring process is not a race, and resumes that arrive via the net
5 minutes after I post an ad are put in the same pile as those that
the postman drops off a week later.  Nice idea about the work without
pay, I'll pass it on.

Mike
--
Mike Rose, mrose@stsci.edu, 410-338-4949
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Re: How do you end an interview?
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:36:18 GMT

In article <30JUL199208481420@violet.ccit.arizona.edu> nadsap@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Beacon) writes:
>I had an interview yesterday that became rather uncomfortable for me.  In the
>middle of the interview, one of the interviewers told me what the salary 
>range was (and it was way below anything I would consider).  At that point
>I knew that I wasn't interested in the position any longer, but I wasn't
>sure how to end the interview.

For future interviews, I would suggest that you make sure that (before
you are interviewed) there is some mention of your current salary.
Frequently you may hear that your salary is already out of the range
that can be offered. If you don't have a current salary (ie you are
currently a student) then your problem is made more difficult, since
companies seldom offer to tell you salary ranges before you interview.

>The interview continued for another 10-15 minutes and they finally asked if
>I had any questions or comments.  I basically said the scope of the job was
>not what I was looking for.  Should I have mentioned the low pay? Should I
>have stopped the interview as soon as I knew I was no longer interested?
>If so, how would you do that?

The thing that I usually say is something along the lines of...

"Oh, I'm sorry, but that is less than I was expecting. The minimum
salary that I would be able to accept is $$$$$$."

Sometimes they will raise their offer, and sometimes they just can't,
but in either case it's best to be open and up front as soon as you
hear the bad news.

Lynda
-- 
Of course I don't SPEAK for TRW; they pay me to THINK for them.

shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Where do old programmers go?
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:02:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CompuData Inc.

hnoble@polari.online.com writes:

>management that's hostile because of my age (yet), although I've had
>a number of fights because of my radical politics and tendency to
>organize unions.

Unions? For programmers? Isn't that taking the art of programming down to the 
level of steering a truck across the country? How any real programmer would 
ever want to hide behind the power of mediocrity is beyond my comprehension. I 
doubt if it's possible.
Fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: 50zhouh@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu
Subject: Salary for programmer
Reply-To: 93wang@cua.bitnet
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Distribution: misc.job.misc
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:54:29 GMT

Anybody knows the salary for a programmer who has a Master degree
in Computer Science?  I am in the Washington DC area.
Thanks in advance.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: Re: No tie
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:26:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

helwig@epx.cis.umn.edu writes:

>OK, so what about those of us who cannot wear a tie. Should I tell
>the interviewer outright, or just assume that if it matters, they will
>ask? I have a condition (similar to claustrophobia) which prevents
>me from wearing one. What do you think?

I have a similar condition, although it is not much of one.  I can wear
a tie, but it does make me extremely uncomfortable in the sense that I
constantly feel a need to tear it off just to get a breath of air.
I cannot wear string tied coat hoods for the same reason.  Velcro (tm)
attached ones work fine.

Clip on ties are nearly as bad and don't look as good as real ties.

I did find a new product called the Zipper Tie (tm?).  It fits around
your neck like a regular tie, but the preformed knot is slid into place
using a zipper strap that fits under the tie.  This works a lot better
for me because I can readily adjust it as needed.  I tuck the zipper tail
into my shirt to make sure it doesn't slip out from under the tie.

It might work for you, at least on rare special occaisions like an interview
for a "must have" job which won't require a tie once working (or at least
not very often).
-- 
/***********************************************************************\
| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
\***********************************************************************/
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc