HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: urf@sluss.ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Gear door/speed brake question
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:32:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Apr14.003227.22798
Organization: AT&T


From urf@sluss.ki.icl.se (Urban Fredriksson)

I happen to be a model builder, at the moment working on a
Grumman Panther and a Cougar. First I thought "Rats! the kit
maker hasn't made the main landing gear doors openable". On most
aircraft, when the engine is stopped, hydraulic pressure
disappears, and speed brakes, doors and whatnot just drop open.

Then I checked my references, and found that indeed parked
Panthers and Cougars actually had the gear doors closed, and most
had closed speedbrakes too. Does this mean they were operated by
an electric motor that turned gears or something?

If the kit maker is to be believed, Panther pilots had their
parachutes strapped to their backs before they entered, but the
Cougar ejection seat had an integral parachute. Is this right?
Where was the survival pack?

As a sidenote: In Draken and Viggen aircraft, the parachute is
the backrest, and you sit on the survival pack.
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson   urf@icl.se 'Reply' may not work.   I'm _not_ a spokesman!
 If you plan to read just one book this year...
 ...you read far too few books.
From: hakoskinen@tne01.tele.nokia.fi (Harri Koskinen)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Su-29?
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:54:12 GMT
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.


From hakoskinen@tne01.tele.nokia.fi (Harri Koskinen)

In article <1992Apr8.234328.24125@cbnews.cb.att.com>, ratinox@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
>>>>>> On 8 Apr 92 00:41:04 GMT, danmcd@cs.arizona.edu (Daniel L. McDonald) said:
> danmcd> Su-29?!?  What is this.  I've heard of the Su-27, but an Su-29?
> danmcd> Could someone please either post of mail information on this plane?
> 
> It's definitely the Su-27. Possibly there is some confusion with the
> MiG-29.
> 
        There is really an Su-29, but it is not a fighter aircraft. It is 
        a two-seat acrobatic trainer that is developed from the single-seat 
        Su-26. Su-29 was for the first time on display at Paris Air Show in
        June 1991. I think that the first Su-29 has already been delivered
        to US.

     --------
        Harri Koskinen
        freelance aviation writer
        Siivet Magazine
        Finland
From: Steven.Schultz@mixcom.mixcom.com (Steven.Schultz)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Any good books on the Gulf War?
Keywords: gulf war, books
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:41:15 GMT
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.


From Steven.Schultz <Steven.Schultz@mixcom.mixcom.com>

I haven't read or bought any, but Norman Friedman, a defense analyst, wrote a
book called "Desert Victory:The War for Kuwait." It is supposed to be one
of the best, and from previous work, I believe it. It's $25.95 Hardcover,
$18.95 paperback. 416 pages, Maps, charts, 75 photos. 5 1/2 X 8 1/4.
Available from USNI. )I can give you more information on purchasing it.) As
for a Flaklands War book, Admiral Sandy Woodward with Patrick Robinson,
foreword by the Rt. Hon. Margaret Thatcher, has written a book called
"One Hundred Days:The Memoirs of the Falklands Battle Group Commander." It is
coming in July, and is supposed to be like Tom Clancy, but real. It's
$24.95 for non-members of USNI. It's 384 pages, 12 pages of photos, and 18
drawings. I can get you more information on where to buy them if you want.
Hope this helps.

Steven.Schultz@mixcom.com
Leader, Military and Arms topic, Hobbies Conference, Exec-PC BBS (414)789-4210

"Eternal peace lasts only until the next war."-Old Russian Proverb
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: SORENSD@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU
Subject: Re: sci.military Digest   V9 #69
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:21:58 GMT


From SORENSD@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU


... on the Cobra technique ...

When would that actually be to their advantage?  It seems that dogfighting
has lost its importance in today's Air to Air mission.


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: douglas@netcom.com (Doug - MIS x7889)
Subject: Re: US Navy's request for Beretta M9 cancellation...
Organization: Approach Software Corp.  Redwood City, CA  94063
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 03:40:56 GMT


From douglas@netcom.com (Doug - MIS x7889)

In article <1992Apr11.001159.17992@cbnews.cb.att.com> upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  ) writes:
>
>This isn't quite correct. The 147 grain 9mm is sub-sonic. That is what
>the SEALs use it in their silenced Berettas, as I recall.

Actually I have heard that they use the Glock series 9mm pistols for
two reasons - the finish is Tennifer, supposedly wears well to water
and other things the SEALs encounter, and they can also be OEMed with
some special springs or something that give them the ability to shoot
underwater.

I can't imagine the shock wave that hits your ears when shooting underwater!

-DM


-- 
Douglas Mason                                    douglas@netcom.COM
Network administration / software development    douglas@netcom.UUCP
Approach Software Corporation                    +1 415.306.7889


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: yuqian@bvc.edu (Suicidal Freshman)
Subject: Re:  Low Altitude Training
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 23:42:13 GMT


From yuqian@bvc.edu (Suicidal Freshman)

In article <1992Apr15.044615.12230@cbnews.cb.att.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:


> But it's no fun if you're on the ground.

No kidding.  I was on my college tour two years ago in the summer.  There was
this college in the velleys in Nevada.  My family was just looking around,
suddenly I saw a F-15 going N-S about 60 meters off the ground.  No sound. 
The first thing I did was cover my ears and yelled at my parents to do the same
thing.  I swear I heard the sound boom.

SF
bvc
--
******************************************************************************
* #$!#$^%!^&%#%$^@#^#!$%%$#%$!^$&@*^#(&$()%&*%%&$^$#@$@#$#@^&$&^$&$^^%$#$%%# *
*----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*                yuqian.bvc.edu		    the Suicidal Freshman            *
******************************************************************************
From: quest!curt@cs.umn.edu (Curtis Gibson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: accidental nuclear detonation
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:36:43 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From quest!curt@cs.umn.edu (Curtis Gibson)


In article <1992Apr3.013157.2415@cbnews.cb.att.com>,
dif@bhpcpd.kembla.oz.au (David Faulkner) writes:

> Didn't a Titan ICBM blow up in it's silo a few years ago. As I (vaguely)
> remember, the missile exploded and blew the warhead out the top of the
> silo and it landed about a mile away, without detonating. I think they
> make ICBM warheads pretty tough, since they may have to withstand close
> proximity explosions from defending ABMs.
> The story I heard of why the Titan blew up was that a technician dropped
> a spanner down the silo and it punctured the missile's fuel tank. This
> seemed a bit unlikely to me, since it would be falling down parallel to
> the side of the missile. Does anyone remember or know anything about
> this event.

The Titan has very thin fuel/lox tank walls.  I think the tech term is
"stressed skin", where much of the strength of the tank walls comes the
load being spread over the whole tank.  The Titan that blew up was at 
Little Rock, AR in late 1980 or early 1981.  The socket wrench was a 
"BIG MOTHER" of a wrench, for a 2 to 3 inch wide nut, (can't remember
the exact size), weight 3-4 lbs.  It fell from the top of the missile
to just above the engines.  I think it was about 60-70 feet.  It hit a
strut or support and bounced into the side of the missile.  I don't
believe my car could take such a socket hitting it like that.  Hopes
this helps.

Curtis S. Gibson   curt%quest.UUCP@cs.umn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military,soc.history
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Friday, 10 April, 1942
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:58:28 GMT


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Friday, 10 April, 1942

Japan begins marching the Filipino and American troops captured on Bataan
100 miles to San Fernando.  

Japanese troops land on Billiton Island in the East Indies and Cebu in the
Philippines.  Filipino and American troops on Cebu retire to the island's
interior.

India's Congress Party and Muslim League both reject Britain's proposal for
Indian self-rule.

Norwegian Bishop Berggrav is imprisoned in the Bredvedt concentration camp
outside Oslo; Quisling threatens to have him executed.

RAF Bomber Command drops the first 2-ton bomb during a raid on the 
city of Essen.

Reporter: George Patterson (dasher!patter@uunet.UU.NET)

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker			            military@att.att.com
Send submissions for "50 Years Ago" to military-request@att.att.com

"The Bataan force went out as it would have wished, fighting to the end of
its flickering, forlorn hope.  No army has ever done so much with so
little." - General Douglas MacArthur
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: benson@colorado.med.ge.com (Mark Benson 5-4228)
Subject: Re: How smart are U.S./Russian Sonobuoys?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:42:38 GMT


From benson@colorado.med.ge.com (Mark Benson 5-4228)

uunet!rosevax.rosemount.com!tom (Tom Brennan) writes:


>I read something several millennium ago that a fisherman had caught a Russian
>version of a sonobuoy in his net.  When they took it apart they found that
>it was a direct copy of a U.S. version.  They had even copied in the bugs with
>that particular version.  You would think that if they can reverse engineer 
>something like an intergrated circuit from a sonobuoy that they would find 
>the bugs and correct them.  Oh well, I guess thats the difference between 
>reverse engineering and copying something.

Back in 1984, in my tenure with TI, the story went that the Soviets had
reverse engineered by exactly duplicating the masks from the chips.  This
must have been by some photographic process.  The 'bugs' you refer to are
actually the little Texas Instruments logo on the chip - referred to by
employees as the 'TI bug'.  Don't believe any copyright / patent enforcement
action could be taken at the time...

--
Mark Benson		benson@med.ge.com
GE Medical Systems
--> Opinions expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employers,
--> past or present.
From: randy@ms.uky.edu (Randy Appleton)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: MIL STD Data Busses
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:03:58 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences


From randy@ms.uky.edu (Randy Appleton)

Can anyone tell me about the MIL STD Data busses that military
airplanes use?  Is it somnething like an ethernet that I can go attach
devices to?  Do most airplanes have one?

-Thanks
-Randy
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: "Mike Cancellier" <cvalj000@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: RE: Accidental ICBM Launch
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:01:39 GMT


From "Mike Cancellier" <cvalj000@CSUPomona.Edu>

In article <1992Apr10.012952.7820@cbnews.cb.att.com>, <AGM106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> 
> From <AGM106@psuvm.psu.edu>
> 
> I doubt it's true, but a friend in SAC said that he heard a roumer that in
> 1979, an ICBM (Minitueman ?) was accidently launched and hit it's target in
> Russia.  He said that the missile only had a practice warhead, and that the
> USAF and USSR kept it quiet, for obvious reasons.  Did anyone here ever hear
> that one?
> 
>   -- Andy Meyer (agm106@psuvm.psu.edu)
>   All opinions are my own.
> 


Missiles in SAC do not carry practice warheads, unless they are
practice missiles or are FOOT (Follow-On Operational Test) shots.
The missile have rather elaborate safeguards to prevent firing
at any time, not just an accidental firing.  Because of these 
safeguards, it just isn't possible to launch without really 
wanting to.  Interesting story, but there is almost no way
it can be true. Sorry

Mike Cancellier
CVALJ000@csupomona.edu
Cal Poly, Pomona Geography Dept.
SAC Missileer in training
				My opinions are my own.
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Offensive applications of SDI
Date: 15 Apr 92 04:37:03 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University


From jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)

Exploding a kilogram of TNT produces 5.5 x 10^6 joules of energy.  A
kilogram of anything re-entering at the orbital velocity of
8000 m/sec according to the formula  E = 1/2 m v^2 has
32 x 10^6 joules, almost 6 times as much.  Therefore to match
16 tons of TNT, the crowbar would have to weigh a bit less than
3 tons.  If it could re-enter at escape velocity the kinetic
energy would be twice as much, so to match 16 tons it would have
to weigh a bit less than 1 1/2 tons.

Conversion of mass to energy in the nuclear sense is not involved.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Subject: Re: US Navy's request for Beretta M9 cancellation...
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 00:11:59 GMT


From upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )

booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth) writes:

> The problem is that 9mm is supersonic (i.e. loud) and thus difficult
> to silence, where the 45 delivers slightly better stopping power, and
> can be easily muffled because of its low sub-sonic velocity.
> 
> Navy SEALs etc, LIKE silenced weapons.

This isn't quite correct. The 147 grain 9mm is sub-sonic. That is what
the SEALs use it in their silenced Berettas, as I recall.

Actually a 9mm handgun would make a lot more sense, if we also had
a general issue 9mm SMG, like most of the NATO forces have. The last
time I looked 9mm SMGs were only used by special forces and such.
It seems to me that a SMG would be handier than a M16 in a lot of
situations. I've heard that the HK MP5 is especially nice.

(If your mail bounces use the address below. My map entry is new.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: brims@bnkl01.astro.ucla.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re:  Low Altitude Training
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:47:59 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From brims@bnkl01.astro.ucla.edu

>From craig.patten@f824.n680.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Craig Patten)
>hh> from flying at 200 feet that it takes considerable training
>hh> for pilots to fly effectively at the lower altitude, yet only two air
>hh> forces in the world train for it [the USAF not among them].
>
>Which air forces are these?

Sounds like we're collecting more than two. My father-in-law and I were
driving along Loch Ness in Scotland and he said "Look at that Jaguar".
I knew he meant a plane not a car, so I looked out the window on his
side, ducking my head to get a better view of the sky. "No not up
there, down there!" he said. The road at that point must be 50 feet
above the water, and we were looking down on the Jaguar as it passed.
I've seen a BBC documentary where a Tornado pilot took a reporter down
to 12 feet along the same stretch of water. A posting on this list last
year also mentioned a Buccaneer picking up bits of tree, so the Royal
NAvy obviously fly as low as the RAF.

George Brims
From: gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: F-117 Air-to-Air
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:20:06 GMT
Organization: Clark College, Vancouver, Wa.  USA


From gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow)

In article <1992Apr4.011342.8908@cbnews.cb.att.com> roten@cuba.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Roten) writes:
>
>   Which brings up a possible new missile type. Since your main task is
>   to remove the AWACS capability, you could either destroy the AWACS
>   plane or cause them to stop emiting. Possibly a high subsonic cruise
>   type missile designed to loiter at very high altitude and use both
>   passive detection with self-contained radar terminal homing or
>   selective home on jam.

Sorry Charles for replying to this message as if it were yours, but I
couldn't find the original.

Anyway, doesn't TACTIC Rainbow provide this capability, or am I wrong, and
this is just one of those proposed weapons that got scrapped, its so hard
to keep them all straight these days.

Gary
-- 
-----
Gary Snow
uunet!clark!gsnow  or  gsnow@clark.edu
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Low Altitude Training
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:06:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Apr8.010613.16967
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From craig.patten@f824.n680.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Craig Patten)
>hh> from flying at 200 feet that it takes considerable training
>hh> for pilots to fly effectively at the lower altitude, yet only two air
>hh> forces in the world train for it [the USAF not among them].
>
>Which air forces are these?

The ones I know of are Israel and South Africa, i.e. the ones that have
actually been shot at quite a bit in recent decades.  I'm told that
Sweden may be another, which surprises me slightly.

There is a tradeoff involved, because flying at realistic combat heights
involves significantly more civilian complaints in places like Germany,
and significantly more training-mission crashes no matter where you are.
Air forces that don't get shot at much are always under pressure to make
training safer and cheaper by compromising realism.
-- 
GCC 2.0 is to C as SVR4 is to Unix.     | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                             -Dick Dunn |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Coastal defense
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:27:11 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From Jeffrey Casterline <jlc@u.washington.edu>
>...vis-a-vis a "poor-man's cruise missile", does the US actually
>maintain an adequate air-based coastal defense to shoot down
>some kind of sea-launched weapon like this?

Basically, no, unless you assume advance warning from intelligence or
at least a little bit of luck.  The US has been letting its air defences
run down for thirty years now, ever since ICBMs superseded bombers as
the primary Soviet threat.
-- 
GCC 2.0 is to C as SVR4 is to Unix.     | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                             -Dick Dunn |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Xref: sparky sci.military:5129 soc.history:3489
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Newsgroups: sci.military,soc.history
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 8 April, 1942
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:10:29 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Wednesday, 8 April, 1942

The Japanese Navy has sunk 28 merchant ships in the Bay of Bengal over the
last five days; the vessels total over 144,000 tons displacement.

The U-252 lands several German agents on Iceland.

The German and Italian air forces pound Malta, delivering the heaviest
attacks the island has seen in the war.

Resistance on Bataan collapses; US and Filipino troops there begin
destroying their equipment.  Some 2000 have been withdrawn to Corregidor;
76,000 remain on the peninsula.

The US Air Ferry Command makes an experimental flight to China over the
Himalayas.  Regular transport flights over "The Hump" are planned beginning
later in the month.

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker			            military@att.att.com
Send submissions for "50 Years Ago" to military-request@att.att.com

"In this war, where speed and air power count so much, the cruiser is
developing into one of the most valuable types.  With speed and long range,
it can perform tasks not readily assigned to other craft.  It can be turned
out faster than the battleship.  In the process of building, it may be
converted to an aircraft carrier..." - Admiral William V. Pratt, USN, Ret.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Rutan: PondRacer and MudFighter
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:43:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Apr13.034321.6142
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA


From viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)


>From dasher!patter@uunet.UU.NET (24224-guthrie)

>The number of P-51s decreases by about 10 each year. Although few of them
>actually get destroyed racing, the racers use lots of parts which are
>cannibalized from others. The last set of Rolls-Royce merlin pistons in
>the world went into a racer last year.

	Just as a point of interest, several aftermarket automotive parts
companies are capable of forging pistons to order, and I've no doubt that
a good machine shop can re-create virtually anything you care to spend
the money on.  We have, last I heard, only 6 flying F4U Corsairs, and
these were even in use in Vietnam (though not often) and fairly common in
Korea.  That's not so long ago.

	The technology exists; we just have to find the will and money
to convince somebody to do it.

<Daniel R. Sorenson   Dod #1066  |If Iowa State University agreed with me >
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu <- work |I'd make $90K/yr.  They don't, I don't. >
<viking@iastate.edu      <- play |"I am *not* goofing off.  I am driving  >
< myself mercilessly in the pursuit of relaxation." -- T. Weeds           >
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: Gene Mullen <gmullen@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>
Subject: Grumman F9F Panther/Couger
Organization: Worldwide Network Planning - Dayton, OH
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:59:48 GMT
Keywords: F9 Panther


From Gene Mullen <gmullen@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>


For the person who raised the questions re hydraulics and parachute
systems, I have some remaining knowledge of those aircraft. During
the 1950s I flew the F9F2 & 5 Panthers and the F9F6 & 8 Cougers.
The gear and dive breakes were hydraulic - perhaps up-locks. The
chute was a seat pack. Survival gear (?) the raft was between the
chute and you. You set directly on the raft. Lovely, lovely little
blue aircraft. They don't make them like that anymore.
From: EACZ02XE%GRTHEUN1.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: miniguns HOT!!!!!new video on them
Date: 17 Apr 92 01:29:33 GMT
Organization: AT&T


From EACZ02XE%GRTHEUN1.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu

hi all you miniguns addicts!
just had a look at the april issue of Soldier of Fortune.it reviews a videotape
the tape is about machine guns.and the 7.62 minigun and a chain gun get the bes
t of coverage.
the tape is made by MIKE DILLON of DILLON PRODUCTIONS, 7442 E. BUTHERUS DRIVE,
AZ 85260.it must be about an hour long and it costs $20
i saw the magazine in a newsstand and that's all i can remember(they wouldn't l
let me take a note of course)the telephone of DILLON PRODUCTS is 800-421-(7432)
i plcaed the 7432 in parentheses because i'm not sure of it.in case it is wrong
do not drive the real owner of the number crazy.
maybe there's another guy out there that has an april issue of S.O.F. handy,to
tell you all about it.(i'll be away from the newsgroup for a while)
kostas papakotas, the "sniper" (relay nick)
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: frank@toadflax.ucdavis.edu (Jeremy Frank)
Subject: Re: Argentine A-4s (was: A-4s in active service)
Organization: UC Davis, EECS Division of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:54:31 GMT


From frank@toadflax.ucdavis.edu (Jeremy Frank)


I did some extensive reading on the Falklands/Malvinas war
some time ago and remember that the Argentines had good success
with U.S. made drag bombs.  I also remember reading that British
naval officers were happy that the Argentines had so few of these
weapons, since they were the most effective given the attack profile
used by the A-4 drivers.  Many of the other attacks using normal 
dumb bombs had the weapons smashing through the decks of British
ships simply because they did not have adequate time to arm themselves.
(I sure wish I could remember which book this came from.)
						Jeremy Frank
"There is no dark side of the moon really.  As a matter of fact it's
all dark."
--Pink Floyd

Newsgroups: sci.military