HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schultz@admin2.usask.ca
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Supplier of trigger locks required
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:10 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan


	Because of the great new Canadian legislation, a gun club I am 
associated with is looking for a supplier of trigger locks - likely to 
purchase 500 locks. We recently bought 500 cable locks from Mossberg & 
Sons at a very decent price but still require trigger locks for some 
firearms.                  

	Any information of suppliers of trigger locks would be greatly
appreciated. Please email directly to

Schultzr@sask.usask.ca 

or the address in the header.

Robert Schultz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ...
Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun."	- Gary Larson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: johno@sdd.hp.com (John Ongtooguk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:43:55 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division

In article <1992Aug19.170431.29645@CERIS.Purdue.EDU>, jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
|> #From article <9208181231.AA17760@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU>, by C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob):
|> # 
|> # I used to have a T/C Contender with a 14" .44 Magnum barrel and Pachmayr
|> # grips.  I shot fairly stout handloads, but recoil was relatively light
|> # because of the grips and barrel length......  
|> 
|> That reminds me, the very first thing I did with my 14" .44 was
|> put my hand under the butt when I fired it.  I have never done
|> that again, although I recently pinched part of my hand when I
|> miscalculated the distance a TC with a .223 barrel would recoil.

   My brother has a TC with a 45/70 Govt barrel. He mentioned that he
   worked up to stiff loads and learned to lock one arm and let the
   other flex so that the pistol would recoil over his shoulder. A
   friend of his wanted to try it out and he firmly locked both arms
   in an attempt to control the recoil...the pistol smacked him in the
   face, he ended up with stitches and still has a scar, but they both
   still laugh about it. 

   He also mentioned that he knows a guide who built a Win .458 double
   rifle with twin triggers. The barrels are cut back to about 18in
   as I recall, he placed a round grip around the barrels, and cut
   the stock down as he needed some 'good medicine' for finishing 
   wounded brown bear in heavy brush. It's evidently not uncommon for
   the browns to create 'tunnels' in the brush and when following one
   in it surprised him by jumping into the brush tunnel instead if
   coming down it....he let off not one but both barrels; the bear 
   went down hard but he also ended up with broken trigger finger. 

   John Ongtooguk (johno@sdd.hp.com)
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:05:02 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <rani.713990042@barsoom>, by rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen):
# In a fit of thoughtlessness, I managed to abuse my friends' Bowning HP
# in the above mentioned fashion at the range today, whereupon a bystander
# offered the following enlightenment:
# 
# -'What you just did equals at least 1.000 shots' worth of wear to the gun.'
# 
# I am fully aware that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a no-no,
# but I'm curoius to the REAL amount of wear itcontributes.
# 
# So, those of you who knows, is the quoted statement just gun.folklore or
# is it more or less the truth?
#

This is a new one on me.  I'm inclined to think that it does no
harm, certainly, I've done it enough to a variety of self-loaders
to have broken a gun some time or other if it did. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:02:01 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <9208202033.AA25010@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
#
#Besides, I handload because factory .357 mag ammo is "too hot" and may
#over penetrate, whereas my handloads are lighter and are of less risk
#to innocent bystanders. 8^)

According to Ayoob, it's not a good idea to handload if your handloads
are either hotter than, or as hot as, comparable factory loads.
However, if you are loading "cooler" than factory loads, this is ok,
providing you can PROOVE that your loads are cooler.  Two reasons, for
in a courtroom: you can say that you thought that the factory ammo was
inhumane or too deadly*, and you can also use the reasoning that you
are: you want to reduce the overpenetration risk to bystanders. 

*:  I don't think too much of this reason, because everyone who uses
factory loads could be in trouble in the gunbanners got someone (on our
side of the 2nd) saying that factory loads are too nasty (read: too
effective).  They'd probably try to legislate us back to lead
semi-wadcutters...

--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chronographs, pressure tape
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:09 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I tried to send you email on this posting and other questions, but
it bounced:
----------------

In article <1992Aug18.144349.23767@news.yale.edu>, you write:

#My feeling is you should have a grip with all your thumbs, fingers, and
#what-not clear of any operating levers, buttons, or other dinguses.  This
#is difficult on small-grip autos like the Firestar, where my right thumb
#has a tendency to rest on the magazine-drop button.  Sometimes I think


	Interarms has right side mag release buttons for about $30 or so.
I'm considering getting one for my firestar. I got some extended safeties
installed on my gun, so hopefully that'll cure the problem without having
to spend more money. 
------------------------------------------------------
In article <1992Aug18.153306.24988@news.yale.edu>, you write:
#
#I've been thinking for some time now my next present to myself should be
#a chronograph.  Anybody have strong opinions on any particular one?

	Oehler has a good one, Pact is a good one, the Chrony is cheap
	and accurate as the pact ones, but it's very easy to shoot a hole
	in it. I'd go with one of the first two.
#
#I also read somewhere that you can get a pretty good imitation of a
#pressure transducer by putting some special resistive-mesh tape on your
#barrel and monitoring the stretch.  I think I've also read that one of
#the Oehler (sp?) model chronographs has inputs for such tape.
#

	Strain guage. Unless you have a ocilliscope, you only
	get the peak of the pressure curve. It's basicly only for bolt
	or TC type guns. I imagine you could mount it on a Luger, but
	anything with a moving barrel will rip the leads off the strain guage.

#Anyone have experience with this?  Would I need to get something like
#a T/C Contender barrel to use this?  How accurate is it?  What's
#involved in getting a true time/pressure curve?  Is it as much fun
#as shooting?


	There is a Handloader article on it, I'll see if I can dig it up
	and send you a copy snailmail.
-c

-Chris L
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* Remember, only mere mortals need sleep!

-Chris L
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* Remember, only mere mortals need sleep!
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Magazine disconnect safety (was Re: Stupid shooter tricks)
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:23 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

syoung@pecanpi.UUCP (Stan Young) writes:
#In article <1992Aug17.135836.2398@crash> jca@crash.cts.com writes:
##Now that is stupidity.  There's always a chance that any given safety
##may malfunction.  But since you have drifted into a mild tangent
##about magazine disconnect safeties.  I wasn't aware of Browning pistols
##having a magazine disconnect safety, but only S&W pistols.  Could
##someone please elaborate if this is true or not.
#
#And while we are on the subject, not all S&W semi-auto's have magazine
#disconnectors.  I know of at least one that was factory made without one.
#On the right side of the slide, between the ejection port and the muzzle, 
#appears the legend:
#
#	CAUTION: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED
#
#It took me a LONG time to get that gun made, but it was worth it!

I bought a S&W 915 explicitly because it has a magazine disconnector on
it.  I make it a habit to check the safeties on my pistols while dry 
firing (pointed in as safe a direction as possible of course) and when I
take them to the range.  On my S&W 915, there is no rough trigger pull
with the magazine disconnector.

Also, is it possible to fix the trigger on a Browning HP while retaining
the magazine disconnector?  Some of the people who e-mailed me that yes 
the Browning HP does have a magazine disconnector did mention that it
makes for a sloppy trigger pull.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:43 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

In article <1992Aug18.140803.17224@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#
#BTW, does anyone know how explosive cannon balls (or modern
#cannon shells for that matter) worked?  It doesn't seem like they
#could have run the fuse throught the touch hole and achieved any
#speed.  Did they load the fuse against the powder charge and hope
#for the best? 

Putting the fuse down by the propelling charge seems to have
sometimes caused an problem with the shell exploding in the
bore.  (Oops...)

Some cannoneers found that the shell's fuse would light off just
as reliably if the fuse were turned away from the propelling
charge.  The flame front pops out the muzzle quicker than the
shell leaves the bore.

Sounds weird, though.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:59:47 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / dpike@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (DAN PIKE) /  6:02 pm  Aug 19, 1992 /
#I was talking to a friend the other day here at work who claims he owns a lot
#of guns.  During our conversation he said that .40cal and 10MM are the same
#thing.  I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but I think he's
#wrong.  I know there has to be a differance.  Don't they fire differant rounds?
#He says you can fire the same round through both.  I don't thinks he's too
#reliable of a source but I just wanted to know what the differances are from
#someone who knows what he/she is talking about.  I know he's not the best
#source because he told me he has an M-16.  Having been in the army I started
#asking him questions about it.  He finally admitted he has a Colt AR-15.  Any
#help that you could give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

My opinion is that your friend probably remarked the BULLET diameters
are the same. and that 10mm and .40 caliber were the same diameter.  It
is the casing that the bullet is loaded into that makes all the
difference.  Thus, if he was referring to bullets only, and not loaded
ammunition, he was correct.  The same bullets will work in either .40
caliber or 10mm ammunition.

If he was referring to the .40S&W and 10mm cartridges, then they are NOT
the same.  The .40 has a shorter case, and actually operates at higher
pressures that 'most' .40 loads.  I HAVE actually seen* .40 fired in
10mm firearms.  Since the case is shorter it will fit.  Some firearm
designs will capture the case close enough to the breach that the firing
pin will hit with enough force to fire it.

Don't get the idea that I recommend it.  This is somewhat akin to trying
to get the last bit of propane out of a bottle by heating it with a blow
torch.  :-) You might try it if you life depended on it but it is not
something you want to make a habit of.

Rick.

* For that matter I've seen 9mm fired in .40S&W and .38spl fired in a
1911 style .45!  The guy demonstrating this was none other than John
Farnum, a noted firearms authority.  As he was explaining what he was
going to do, I noticed, as I was slowly backing away, that everybody
else was doing the same, even after the first successful demo.  I would
suggest that those of us backing away from the demo had the right idea.
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Determining muzzle energy
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:13 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

sorrow@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:


#This is probably a FAQ, however I need to know what exactly is used to
#determine "muzzle energy" as per ballistics tables use...something like
#pound-feet or foot-pounds ( always get the two mixed up :-) 

#Anyway, I need to figure it out based on caliber, velocity, and mass of the
#projectile.  And I need to get a reasonable figure suitable for comparison
#against one of the aforementioned charts.

What I do is     ke = v**2 * m / 451,000.

Velocity (in fps) squared, times Mass (grains) divided by 451,000 = Kinetic
Energy in foot lbs.

JD
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:22 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug17.191230.29004@ttinews.tti.com> reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland) writes:
#In article <1992Aug12.153118.25855@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
##
##I hear lack of overpenetration being used a positive
##factor in "stopping power".  In truth, the shootee does not care if the
##bullet overpenetrates after he is stopped, nor does he care if the
##he was shot by a gun that carried nicely.  He cares only that he was
##hit by a well-place energetic bullet.  
#
#As I heard it, the theory was that a bullet which exits the body is
#wasting much of its energy compared to a bullet which comes to rest in
#the body (i.e., transfers all of its energy/momentum into the body).
#This is why the biggest calibers (such as 44 mag) which over-penetrate
#are not empirically the best stoppers.  Since I don't think Marshall
#counts misses as failures to stop, the increased difficulty of shooting
#big guns accurately doesn't seem to be a factor in those stats.
#
#Anyone want to argue?  (Dumb question, no doubt...)
#

Good point about the accuacy.  But, think about this.  A round that expends
all of its energy and comes to rest has no more potential and may be tailored
to a particular target.  The round that overpenetrates has remaining potential
that we consider dangerous.  What if you NEED that pontential BEFORE the bullet
reaches the target.  Car doors, VCR held in a defensive pose, etc.  Also,
if a 100ft/lb bullet gives up all energy but the 2000ft/lb bullet only
gives up half; which has more target effect? AKA stopping power.

Bill	burge@qdeck
"doin' the big math... it's a filthy job..."
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm Information
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:27 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

Thi_Huynh@univel.COM (Thi Huynh) writes:
#jca@crash.cts.com wrote:
##I have also heard that +P and +P+ rounds are a bear on recoil.  Since
##you'd have to handload hot rounds to get and equivalent practice round,
##I don't think it's worth it.  I have yet to see any 9mm +P or +P+
##factory reloads.
#
#I have shot many Remington 115-gr +P 9mmP cartridges through my Beretta
#92FS (with a velocity of about 1275 fps).  I couldn't tell the difference
#in recoil between this load and other non-+P 115-gr 9mmP loads.
#
#I did not notice any abnormal wear and tear on the aluminum frame.  I
#know that the Beretta is rated for +P and +P+ ammo.  Their proof loads
#in my gun far exceeded the +P+ rating set by SAAMI.

Hmm, I was under the impression that Berettas had a steel frame.  Oh well,
I never was a Beretta fan.  It does mention, however, on page 4 of the
Smith & Wesson Centerfire Pistol Manual that use of +P+ ammunition voids
the pistol's warranty.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: alanko@ruuvi.me.tut.fi (Risto Alanko)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Help identifying a P.38
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:32:08 GMT

btr!jbauman@decwrl.dec.com (Jim Bauman) writes:


#My brother just bought a P.38 and holster from a retired Canadian
#Army officer.  This gun was picked up in Germany at the end of WWII,
#and has markings on it that I've never seen, and do not appear in 
#any book I've found.  I'll describe what's on this gun, and if anyone
#can help identify the markings, I'd be most appreciative!  Here goes...
#
#        <------------barrel
#
#                P.38    6Yf     6721d  (the "d" is in a funny script)
#                        43
#
#Above the trigger is an eagle and swastika with the number 135 below it.
#
#Other small die stamps visible are another eagle/swastika with the 135
#below it, another style of eagle/swastika, and another graphic (sort of
#an eagle, with the number 135 below it.
#
#On the holster it's got the same eagle and swastika with the 135 below that
#appeared above the trigger, and also:
#                         
#                        dta
#                        42
#
#It doesn't say Walther anywhere.  Anyone have any idea what we have here,
#and what these markings mean?
#


I have a similar "Walther" P 38 here in Finland. If yours doesn't have any 
special features you didn't mention, it is a regular "war horse". German 
ordnance office distributed all weapon manufacturing to many sites.
"Pistole 38" was made by Mauser, Spreewerke (in Berlin) and Walther.

"byf 43" is a manufacturing code: Mauser,Oberndorf factory 1943. 
During the war all factories had codes, Walther factory was "ac".

"dta 42" on the holster is a similar holster manufacturers code.

6721d is serial number: repeats every 9999 with different letter to conceal 
production capacities.

eagle-swastika with number is "Waffenamt" (Army ordnance office) 
stamp. The number identifies the site of inspection: 135 is Mauser factory.
The stamp should be on all major parts, it is found in several sizes.
*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*
    Risto Alanko                          alanko@ruuvi.me.tut.fi   
    Machine Design                        P.O.Box 589
    Tampere University of Technology      33101 Tampere, FINLAND
    FINLAND                               telefax INT+358 31 162307 
*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*-=-=-*
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: reloading & lead
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:20 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / swatt@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) / 10:14 am  Aug 18, 1992 /
#
#After spending considerable effort to find a nice clean-burning powder for
#my reloads, someone at the range finally told me all that smoke was
#vaporized lead and bullet lube!  I've been buying boxes marked "hard cast",
#bullets for both .45 and .357, but none of the boxes ever gave percentages
#of lead, tin, and antimony, so I don't really know what I've been shooting.

I fire in the neighborhood of 12-15 thousand rounds a year, 99.9% lead.

Find the hardest lead bullet you can.  Locally, 3D is probably the best.  
Most of they guys in my club use them and leading is reasonable if you 
keep the velocities down.   Of course much of our shooting is competetive
where we keep the loads as light as we can without the bullet keyholing.
(Obviously this isn't IPSC :-)

I have heard the bit about 'lead vaporizing' off of the end of the bullet, 
but have also heard that it isn't real significant compared to the lead in 
the primers.  It certainly shouldn't have anything to do with your leading
problem.  You could always consider a gas checked bullet if you are really 
worried.  99.9% of all the smoke you see is bullet lube.  Some bullets 
come with a dry lube now that almost eliminates the smoke.  

By the way, in case anybody is wondering, with all that shooting
mostly at indoor ranges and reloading etc my lead was a bit elevated. 
Turned out I was EATING a lot of it.  Simply sloppy habits.  You know, 
shoot, get primer residue all over my hands, smoke a cigarette, and 
swallow it (the residue, not usually the cigarette.)   
Same thing reloading.  

I've quit smoking, and started washing my hands immmediately after 
shooting and reloading.  NEVER eat or drink anything while undertaking
either of these enjoyable passtimes.  

Rick.
From: pecanpi!syoung@emory.mathcs.emory.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying spare magazines
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:31:35 GMT
Organization: Pecan Pi, Doraville, Georgia

In article <9208102126.AA19412@netmail.microsoft.com> alane@microsoft.com (Alan Ezekiel) writes:
#I have been told several times by defensive handgun instructors
#that every person who carries a defensive firearm should have an
#extra magazine or speedloader with them.
#
#Here are some of the reasons I have been given:
#	........[omitted].......

Quite simply - your instructors are right.  Every reason they have given
you is right on the money.  Do I carry a spare magazine?  I carry at least 
three magazines, one in the gun and TWO spares.

I should point out that my current carry gun does not have high capacity
magazines; it has a single-column magazine that holds 8 rounds.  But back when
I carried a Beretta 92, I followed EXACTLY the same procedure.  Here's why:

	The single most likely point of failure in a semi-automatic pistol 
	is the magazine.  They are inherently fragile, and subject to 
	considerable stress during use.  A deflection of the feed lips of 
	just a fraction of an inch can stop the pistol from functioning.

Having a gun that won't shoot when you need it is a good way to become dead.

Do I carry OC or similar sprays?  No.  I'm not saying that they are worthless;
they have their place.  But, as you put it, you can't carry everything with
you - and I'd rather have the extra magazines.  I'm pretty good at avoiding
problems in the first place.  But if I can't avoid it, in most cases, the mere
sight of a handgun in the hands of the intended "victim" makes the bad guys 
remember pressing social engagements elsewhere.  That's non-lethal, and won't 
blow back in your face if the wind is coming from the wrong direction.
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: German Firearms Regulations
Date: 19 Aug 92 23:44:06 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory


Can someone tell me what firearms, if any, the ordinary citizen is
allowed to own in Germany?  How about tourists and/or US Military
folk assigned there?

Thanks much.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405