From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Date: 25 Sep 92 04:43:22 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 TA=>Can you demonstrate, from the Bible of course, that the current 
 TA=>plight of
 TA=>the Jews is considered by God to be an "exile?"

Ezekiel 36, 37, 38, 39., And Amos 9 for starters...

>        While the Jewish people will tell you that the race is hebrew, and
> that the religion is Jewish, there are indeed the direct descendants of 
> Abraham on the earth...

 TA=>No doubt there are.  But can you tell me who are the direct 
 TA=>descendents and
 TA=>who are descended from converts to Judaism?  Where are the 
 TA=>records?

AS i said before it is not popular to be Jewish, so while as you know the 
genealogies were burned up with Jerusalem, or have not been uncovered as 
yet, many families kept their heritage, tribal name and family names in tact 
by passing them down to their children.  For instance.  My hebrew name is
Tzvi Eli.... Why?  Glad you asked for our family tradition which we trace 
from the beginning of the exile thus.  My Mothers family Moti ben Israel, 
left the holyland and ended up in Turkey for many generations.  From the 
expulsion there went to the German steppes, where they picked up the name 
Holtzman, when those steppes became part of Russia, they went to the Ukraine 
to Bilardrudka, from which another pogram, and my mothers family was killed 
except for my mother, and her sister, who made their way to the USA...

My fathers family was Meier ben Morash, who left Israel went to Russia, and 
then to Germany, where they lived for many generations.  It is not clear 
whether they accompanied the Rushkies, from the Caucasus to to Russia and 
then to Germany.  But they ended up in Poland, where Meier ben Morash became 
Meier Smith,  Morash in hebrew means Smith...  From there to England, to the 
USA.  However, they gave their children levitical names with their hebrew 
names.  mine is Eli after Eli the priest before the exile...

So you see Tom, it is possible to trace those who are Hebrews from before 
the exile even without the genealogical records...

> For one God promised that Abraham would be the father of many nations, and 
> not just Israel.  ...

 TA=>Amen!  That's why we have the Church --  the commonwealth made up 
 TA=>of Jew and
 TA=>Gentile (cf. Eph 2:12).

I agree.  Revelation 21:23 to the end of chapter, that the nations walk 
there and the kings of those nations bring the glory of those nations there.
Hence, Abraham is the father of all the faithful and the father of many 
nations including Israel.

However, if you look closely, you will see, that the gates of the city have 
the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, and the foundations the 12 hebrew 
names of the Apostles of the Lamb, and the capitol of the world is 
Jerusalem, and not Washington DC or Salt Lake City, or another gentile city.

>                   So we have Direct descendants of Abraham in the Arab
> peoples, as well as Israel.  There are no more direct genealogical proofs 
> for either, but can trace historically their lineage and ethnicity back to 
> Abraham, as we all can trace our lineage back to Adam and Eve...

Of course via Ishmael and Esau.  Of course it is also noted that the Rabbis 
have since antiquity, kept track of the nations of the world created at 
Babel, which they number as 70...

 TA=>Please restate that last sentence.  Are you saying there is no 
 TA=>way a person
 TA=>can know for sure they are descended from Abraham physically?  
 TA=>Does it
 TA=>matter?

I think i answered this above, and i am sure we can tell who is Jewish or 
not, by our naming method of children... And the arabs certainly can lay 
claim to either ishmael or Esau...

 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG