HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Changing letters at will  (was Re: Complete verification of Jesus)
Date: 28 Jan 1993 15:01:05 -0800
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1k9iaiINN9tj@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
>In article <1993Jan28.200813.35664@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
>>If the original says k'ari then Scripture is corrupt since it necessitates
>>us choosing our own verbs.  It must have said ka'aru originally because
>>the 72 Jews who made the LXX translated it that way.
>
>There were never any 72 Jews who translated the 
>Septuagint. This is what we call a "bubbe meisse" a "fairy tale."
>It has no historical value whatever.

It doesn't matter whether 72 Jews (or 70) did the translation in 72 days
(or 70 days), or whether the translation was done by N people (who need
not be Jews, so long as they know Hebrew and Greek) in M days, where N
and M are both finite.

The fact is that the LXX was translated about 250 BC, from Hebrew texts
of that day.  The LXX, as well as all other ancient translations of works
of antiquity, shed great light on what the older manuscripts must have
looked like.  The LXX, being much older than the Russian Hebrew texts of
the Tanach, gives us information on any possible corruption (either
purposeful or accidental) of that text.

In addition, the scrolls found at Qumran weigh heavily against Psalm 22
having k'ari, since those scrolls have ka'aru.  This is also true of a
short passage in Davarim, which is quoted by Jews of the 1st century in
the NT book of Hebrews, and which is also found in both the LXX and the
Qumran scrolls; this passage indicates that the angels will *worship*
the Messiah.

It looks to this observer that at the minimum, there has been some small
accidental corruption of texts concerning the Messiah.  At worst, there
has been purposeful corruption.  This is not too hard to accept,
considering the hostility that Rabbinic Jews have had towards
Christianity, and also considering the passages that appear to have been
so corrupted are all strongly supportive of Christianity, and strongly
against the modern Rabbinic religion.

So, stop appealing to stories as objections that don't get you off the
hook.  It doesn't matter how many Jews translated the LXX.  What matters
is what the LXX says, and you are stuck with it, no matter how
uncomfortable that may make you feel.

                                       |            
       ,--.  , , ,  --.      ,--.  -.  `--,  , , ,  
       |  |  |/ /     |      |  |   |    /   |/ /   
       `--'  `-'    --'-     `--'   '   '    `-'    

,--.  ,  , , ,  \ ,.  ,--.       , ,  -.  , , ,  ,  
|  |     |/ /    / |     |       | |   |  |/ /      
'  '     `-'    `--'  '  '     --'-'   '  `-'       

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Organization: University of Turku
	<LJMORLY.93Jan14105051@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan19160058@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan21113710@polaris.utu.fi>
	<KRULWICH.93Jan25112343@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:37:34

In article <KRULWICH.93Jan25112343@zowie.ils.nwu.edu> krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich) writes:
> Laura now replies:
> > Look yourself... You aren't taking the *whole* sentence as it is. How 
> > would you translate "veyesh potrin sheze haot shealmah haita ve'eina 
> > reuyah levaled" ? There is no mention about being barren ! 

> I said clearly above that "eina re'uya livaled" means "is not capable of
> giving birth."  According to Webster's, barren means "1: not reproducing: as
> 1a: incapable of producing offspring," which is exactly what Rashi said.
> That's why Hillel used the word "barren."

As I said, here you aren't taking the whole sentence into consideration.
There are two possible *interpretations* for "being incapable of giving 
birth",

a. being a virgin
b. being barren

but here we aren't discussing about interpretations but *a translation*.

But let's go on...

> Now, for some reason my translation above didn't count as "taking the whole
> sentence as it is," so here we go:

> veyesh potrin			and there are those who interpret
> 				[the "sign" that is mentioned in Is.]
> she'zeh ha'os			that this is the sign 
> 				["os" is the Ashkenazic pronounciation]
> she'alma hi'sa			that she was an "alma"
> v'eina re'uya li'valed		and was not capable of giving birth

> What were Hillel and I missing by not looking at the whole verse?  The point
> is that Rashi discusses the alma as being incapable of giving birth.  Not that
> she was a virgin, which is how you originally mistranslated it.

Ah, but you AREN'T TRANSLATING THE WORD 'ALMAH' ! 
Now, how would you translate it ? 'Barren' ??? 

> Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
> krulwich@ils.nwu.edu

- Laura
--
"Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
 Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
 Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
 Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
 What is his name, and the name of his son ?
 Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Still Non-existant Talmud Quotes (wa
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:10:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu

 RAL> Date: 21 Jan 93 16:44:50 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9301211644.AA05877@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> 
 RAL> OK, so we can look up the Moshe HaDarshan quotes.  Thanks, Bill.
 RAL> 
 RAL> But what about the "Oxford Scholars" passage, which Harvey Smith
 RAL> said would "once and for all" settle the virgin birth issue?

On that passage, {which I don't remember seeing earlier, as I was
responding later in the discussion}, I can only recall seeing the
middle portion of it in Rabbinic writings somewhere (on Messiah being
the branch).  So..., guess we'll just have to wait to see what Harvey
comes up with.  It may take him a little time, but he's pretty good
about sooner or later giving the requested info..

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Disproof of "Proof 2" (was *** MoJ: Proof 2: The Passover Prophecy ***)
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:35:12 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <1k1ht4INNjt7@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@walnut.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan25.160835.35787@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
>
>>Please post up a proper refutation of proof 1 which involves 
>>typing out the fulfilment not haphazard aspersions.
>
>Not all prophesy has been fulfilled.  Just because I can show that Jewish
>prophecies have not been fulfilled through Jesus does not imply that 
>they have been fulfilled otherwise.  Is is not possible that prophecy
>has not been fulfilled *yet*?
>
>Gedaliah Friedenberg
>-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
>-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
>-=-Michigan State University
>

I see! So the prophecy of Daniel 9 refers to a yet future time!
All is clear ! 

What you are saying is that History has another 490 years to run
but first Jerusalem will be destroyed then rebuilt etc. or perhaps
only 70 weeks of days after such events because you obviously
believe in the 6,000 years and there arenot 490 years left in the
plan of the 6,000 years.

GEDELIAH FRIEDENBERG - let's face it - this is no longer a question
of whether Jesus is or isnot Messiah - It's just a question of whether
or not you want him to be Messiah.

Just remember that Messiah is God's choice not yours.  The reason that
you are not getting a revelation of Jesus' Messiahship is because
you are not being objective so God is not revealing to you.

Here's a neutral prayer that we can all say together:

"Father, if Jesus is the Messiah then please reveal this to me,
but if Jesus isnot the Messiah then reveal this also. I promise to
seek until I have found the answer and will diligently read the New
Testament.  If it  is your word then let me believe it and open my
eyes - if not then let me not believe it and keep me from heresy. Amen"

Now  you can alter the above if you want as long as you keep it 
objective.  I am sure that we will have a common belief soon.

Vijay
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: friedenb@boswell.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Dov HaMoshiach
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:15:37 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@boswell.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: boswell.egr.msu.edu


Now that Dov Krulwich has revealed himself to a.m as the true
redeemer of the Jewish people (or at least he is working on it),
I think that it is time to analyze the "proofs" that he is
the Moshiach (or he is working on it).

Dov, means bear (yes, the furry mammal) in Hebrew (yes, the 
furry language).  Maybe we should consider the ramifications
of this:  it gives the Cub Scouts a whole new meaning.  ;^)

It is too bad that we were too stubborn to have seen this 
coming, and ignored the obvious prophecies.  I always wanted
to be a Cub Scout when I was a kid...

The effect is almost "chilling" that I was instilled with this
desire from such a young age.  I guess that it is not surprising
that there has been an organization of Jewish Cub Scouts (really!!)
for years now.  We were just too blinded to see the truth.

It is all so vividly clear to me know.  The "land of milk and honey" 
all makes sense.  In their youth bears drink their mothers *milk* 
and as we learned from the prophetic Winnie the Pooh (shlita), all
bears love *honey* when they get older.

;^) 

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: *Classic Testimony: Christianum Gerson*
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:35:17 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium


The following testimony is a gem for the weekend.

===============================================================
In about 1600 (exact date unknown) Christianum Gerson, a Jewish
scholar, took pity on an impoverished old Christian woman by
paying eight schillings for her New Testament in Luther's
translation.

He wanted to see how this "grave mistake" could possibly have
captured the hearts of innumerable Gentiles.

Initially, he studied it with his two brothers-in-law, but the
Gospel message shook him so much that he had to go on reading it
in secret.

He compared it's message with that of Jewish sources and through
only the Word came to faith in Jesus as his Lord and Saviour.

At first his family and friends rejected him so he wrote a 700
page treatise to prove his faith comparing the New Testament with
the Tanakh, the Talmud and the Midrash.

Eventually, some of them came to faith including his wife and
children.  Had he lived to write for alt.messianic then all the
Jewish subscribers would be Christians.
===============================================================

The above is one of my favourite classic testimonies since it
shows what can happen when anybody, Jew or Gentile, decides to
study the New Testament objectively and perhaps pray for guidance
along the way.

There can be no accusation here that he was somehow confused by
a lack of education or Orthodox influence.  The most important
point is that he was probably not aware of any fulfilled prophecy
until after his heart had already been stirred by the Gospels.

Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)

[ Apologies in advance for this and any other posting that
contains anglicized spellings such as "Saviour" and "favourite"]
From: dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Date: 28 Jan 1993 01:02:38 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.ai.mit.edu

In article <27JAN199316464711@utkvx2.utk.edu> fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixson, John Fred) writes:
#In article <1k6ig8INNdcu@life.ai.mit.edu>, dweinste@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (David Weinstein) writes...
#>In article <26JAN199323151295@utkvx2.utk.edu> fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixon, John Fred) writes:
#>#But you are correct... it doesn't *prove* it one way of the other. All we
#>#have is the Septuigint translation, and the tens of thousands of first
#>#century Jews who did in fact accept this account, as used by Matthew, that
#>#the sign was a virgin would give birth. This would also be in perfect
#>#accord with your use of almah. But the conclusion would be... naaah.
#> 
#>Tens of thousands of Jews? That means we are talking on the close order
#>of .75% of the Jewish population. So, if less than 1% of the Christians
#>were to leave Christianity, obviously Christianity would have it wrong?
#> 
#
#Ummm... the tens of thousands is a reference to the Jews in and around
#Jerusalem when Paul returned to the city (see Acts 21:20, those were Jews
#"zealous for the Torah"), not to modern populations. See "first century".

So how many Jews converted to Christianity? You listed tens of thousands
as the number who accepted Matthew's usage (and presumably became
Christian). Yet even accepting an outside bound of 100,000 Jews converting,
that is still about 1.4% of the total Jewish population. There were more
than 7 million Jews in the first century, comprising 14% of the population
of the Roman Empire. So the "tens of thousands" who liked the meaning
of Almah aren't all that impressive after all.

#As for the last sentence, I cannot parse it in a sensible way; perhaps you
#could help me out?

Sure. You listed the tens of thousands as corroborating the Septaguint
translation. But considering the vast numbers of Jews who apparently didn't
agree, it isn't that convincing. Or at least, it is no more convincing than
a small percentage of the Christian population differing with Christian
beliefs makes those beliefs "incorrect".

--Dave


-- 
Dave Weinstein
Internet: dweinste@gnu.ai.mit.edu
"Wives have no sympathy for Rugby injuries." -- Dan Smith
From: ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:24:36 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

In article <25JAN199315043504@utkvx2.utk.edu> fnixon@utkvx2.utk.edu (Nixon, John Fred) writes:
>According to recent articles, not ads, in the Jerusalem Post, the Chabad
>has officially declared Rebbe Schneerson the Moschiach. They are now
>putting up signs that say (to the best of my reading ability, I still 
>really need vowel points) baruch haba melek hamaschiach with the Rebbe's
>picture in place. Since the JP interviewed official spokesmen from Chabad
>I assume it is indeed official, and not tentative. If you like I could post
>the relevent parts of the article (it is at home).
>
>I agree that in the past the official pronouncements were that the Rebbe
>was the potential Messiah, and that some ads "jumped the gun", but I believe
>that is changed now. I'll ask one of my Chabad friends to see if the JP has
>it correct...
>
>fnixon@sol.cs.utc.edu
>fnixon@utkvx.utk.edu

I had also read that the Lubavitch first started with a PETITION to try and
get Jews to somehow 'vote' that Schneerson is the Messiah.

Could somebody please post details if they can verify this. Thanks.
Vijay
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: *** MoJ: Proof 4c: Chronology (3 of 3) ***
Date: 27 Jan 1993 21:29:50 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <1993Jan27.193759.32020@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
>Murder, Drugs, Prostitution, Child Abuse, Pornography, Pollution,
>Nuclear Dumping, Greenhouse Effect, Yugoslavia, Iraq.....

The fall of the Roman Empire, the Mongol invasion, the Crusades, the
Saracens, the Sassanids, the Black Death, Columbus, the ice ages, witch
trials, the eruption of Thera, the Hyksos, the birth of Vlad the
Impaler, King George....

By the way, where was the proof? Did I miss something?
-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Working on it
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<KRULWICH.93Jan21124427@zowie.ils.nwu.edu> <63602@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:54:06 GMT


harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes:

> krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich) writes:

> >I want to announce to everyone that I am the Moshiach.
> >
> >Granted, I'm not a leader of the Jews, but I'm working on it.

> You're a twit - but I guess you're working on it ;-)

I suppose that "twit" has a grand history of friendly and complementary usage,
just like "nudnick" ??

Dov (aka Bruce)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:24:35 CST
From: <U60829@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Bible Prophesy

Is there any group on the net which deals with Bible Prophesy concerning our
future either Jewish or Christian, which I feel, is esseintialy (sp?) the
same.  Also maybe a Islamic group.  Or is this it?

Thanks,
Jim Pacella
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: were it not for the VEIL . . .
Date: 23 Jan 93 11:37:25 GMT
	<1993Jan19.020440.18803@netcom.com> <1jfr1oINNk75@pollux.usc.edu>
	<HEM.93Jan19141902@col400.att.com>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan21105401@polaris.utu.fi>
	<HEM.93Jan21100303@col400.att.com>
Organization: University of Turku

In article <HEM.93Jan21100303@col400.att.com> hem@col400.att.com (Hillel E. Markowitz) writes:
> See the Rashi on this for the answers.  The Judaica Press edition gives
> a good explanation of this in English.  It is asking, who can replace
> Moshe Rabbeinu.

> > "Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
> Like Moshe went up to get the Torah.

> >  Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
> Like Moshe took the ashes which he threw into the air for the plague in
> Mitzrayim.

> >  Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
> Like Moshe stretching out his staff to split the Reed Sea.

> >  Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
> Like Moshe bringing the Torah to Israel which is the basis for the
> existence of the universe.

> >  What is his name, and the name of his son ?
> If such a person exists, he must have a known family and lineage like
> Moshe whose human lineage is specifically shown in the Torah.

> >  Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4

Did you also read the verses that follow ?

   "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take
    refuge in him.
    Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a
    liar."  - Mishlei 30:5,6

And also

   "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer
    that breaks a rock in pieces ?"  - Yirmeyahu 23:29
 
> ____________________________________________________
> | Hillel Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li mi li    |
> | H_Markowitz@att.com | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha |
> |_____________________|____________________________|

- Laura
--
"Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
 Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
 Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
 Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
 What is his name, and the name of his son ?
 Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Complete vilification of Jesus
Supersedes: <1993Jan22.000049.4935@netcom.com>
Organization: Castle Anthrax
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:06:41 GMT


In article <1993Jan21.174722.17913@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay Bhuchar) writes:
>To end off: The fact that Jesus didnot fulfil all the Scriptures is 
>crucial in witnessing.  I have often said to people:
>
>"Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of his first coming.  The
prophecies
>of his second coming talk about the unbelievers being judged as 
>unrighteous and thrown into Hell.... Are you willing to take the risk
>that he WONT fulfil them?"
>
>Chilling! But it seems to have an effect.

You know, I've been saying the same thing about Dov Krulwich
haMashiach for years. It has an effect, though not a chilling one...

(And "witnessing" seems like an odd term for spreading hearsay.
This is inadmissable for "witnessing" in American courts.)
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"Wait a minute! You guys are NINJAS!"
                ---The Tick
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: hem@col400.att.com (Hillel E. Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Complete verification of Jesus
Originator: news@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
Reply-To: H_Markowitz@att.com
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
	<1993Jan25.172205.13550@udel.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.93Jan25183240@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>world
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:29:40 GMT

On 25 Jan 93 18:32:40, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) said:

> In article <1993Jan25.172205.13550@udel.edu> carroll@bifur.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll) writes:
>>   (Can someone help me find the citation, I believe from Rambam, that it
>>   is better to perform Mitzvot without belief, than to have belief but
>>   not perform the Mitzvot?)

> I've heard this before too, and think that it is a fundamental
> theological mistake.  With this tenet, religion is reduced to a
> practice, learnable by machine, requiring only outward action and not
> inward understanding.  Even worse, religion can be forced on a person,
> resulting in outward practice but inward resentment.  Without belief,
> any reason for practice depends on outward pressure (peer acceptance)
> alone.  It makes for a barren religion.
> --
> =Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

I have seen the quotation mentioned but I don't remember the citation
either.  It may actually be a medrash.  However, as I recall, there is a
following sentence which changes the meaning.  This is a paraphrase from
memory though.

Because, through performing the mitzvos they will come to belief.

Thus (me speaking again) someone who has belief but doesn't perform the
mitzvos will come to lose the belief as well.

There  is also the phrase "Mitoch shelo lishma bo lishma"  from [doing a
mitzva] for ulterior motives [not for its own sake] one comes to [do a
mitzva] for its own sake.
--
____________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li mi li    |
| H_Markowitz@att.com | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha |
|_____________________|____________________________|
Newsgroups: alt.messianic