HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grisha@athena.mit.edu (Grigory Golberg)
Subject: Re: AA
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:19:36 GMT

In article
<1993Jan21.201009.29300@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
rkn3u@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Keith Norwood) writes:


>Remember though, that AA didn't appear by magic.  There are historical
>reasons for its implementation.  The white male power structure refused
>to incorporate minorities. Thus AA was an attempt to solve that.  I think
>we all agree that it isn't perfect but what should replace it. If nothing
>replaces it, won't history repeat itself.  

Of course!!!  Opressive, insensitive and politically incorrect 
dead white heterosexual male power structure refused to *incorporate*
(whatever that means) minorities.  This is why white people today should
feel guilty and give the minorities affirmative action because it would
be politically correct...

This is sad, you know... 

-- 
****************************************************
*    Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!!!    *
****************************************************
*  To err is human; to forgive is not our policy   *
****************************************************
* Grigory Golberg            grisha@athena.mit.edu *
****************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: grj1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Matrix)
Subject: Re: alt.discrimination
Reply-To: grj1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:45:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.014926.1991@samba.oit.unc.edu> Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>>>Well I can't speak for you but I have encountered alot of white people that
>>>>assume certain things about AfAms simply because of what thet have seen on the
>> 
>
>>I may have missed something but, it appears that you have misunderstood
>>what Charles was trying to say.  He didn't make a blanket statement that all
>>whites act in the above manner.  In fact he states that he has met SOME that 
>>assume certain things about blacks from the news.  This doesn't seem to be
>>an unlikely prospect.  So with that in mind...what is your objection to the 
>>above statement Terry??
>
>Silly me, not knowing that a-l-o-t spelled s-o-m-e. You seem qualified to
>make up a "study". Further, why was the racial characterization
>("alot of white people") used? I know, I know, a lot of white people
>really means some people of all races.
>
>
Dear Terry,
	You are much too high- strung for any conversation.  First, I stand
by my statement that it is not difficult to imagine whites or any other race
acting in the manner that Dowdy states.  I believe that many of the 
misunderstandings that happen between the many races of America is due to
preconceptions that individuals hold of other races.  I believe that
Dowdy specifically brought up whites in response to another poster.  
Essentially the other poster says something to the effect , "I am 
white and I don't act in that manner."  Dowdy reponds with the above quote
"(paraphrase) Well i know alot of whites that act in that manner."
You seem to constantly antagonize others with having an intellectual 
exchange of information.  

germaine
--
>   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
>     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
>        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
>           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80


Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: The swedenfinns, a discriminated minority in Sweden
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 11:57:19 GMT

The Central Organization of the Finns in Sweden has sent a letter to
prime minister Carl Bildt, where the Finns demand as soon as possible
Swedish governement to undersign The Treaty of Protecting Lingual
Minorities of Council of Europe. Singning The Treaty would guarantee
for the Finnish language a minority language status. The Central Organi-
zation reminds, that there are 320 000 Finnish speaking people living
in Sweden and a half a million Finns immigrated to Sweden during the
latest immigration wave.

jr
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5689 soc.culture.african.american:14316 misc.education:6115
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:11:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1993Jan22.022147.18352@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
|> >|   Syron and Munnell [the report presenters] stressed that the new
|> >|   study found no evidence that banks discriminate against minority
|> >|   mortgage applicants with "perfect" financial and employment
|> >|   records.
|> 
|> >And exactly *how* is this "cooking" the data?
|> 
|> A person with twenty late loan payments is supposedly unfairly denied
|> a mortage which is given to a person with only one late loan payment.
|> I would suspect that poorer people have more trouble making loan
|> payments than wealthier people so again we have poorer people
|> getting fewer loans than wealthier people being presented as racism.

Read the article again Terry. People with twently late payments were not
compared with people with one late payment at all. Amongst completelly equal
groups of whites and blacks, the whites were granted the loans with
considerably greater frequency. Income was considered, so only blacks and
whites of equal income were compared. Late payments were considered so only
blacks and whites with approximatelly equal credit records were compared.
Despite the consideration of every area that the banks felt was important,
it turned out that there was a disparity.

Why can't you read?

|> >I'll say it again.  You are asserted again and again that the govt has
|> >"cooked" data.  I have shown you a recent study showing lending bias
|> >with uncooked numbers (despite your attempt to microwave them) and
|> >you, once again, are unable to demonstrate your claim.
|> 
|> Were people with equivalent credit defects compared? No. So this data

YES! You are wrong Terry. Only people with equivalent credit records were
compared.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:30:53 GMT

>|A person with twenty late loan payments is supposedly unfairly denied
>|a mortage which is given to a person with only one late loan payment.

>Says who?  What does this have to do with the posted article?

	"Blacks and Hispanics do, for example, tend to have weaker
	credit ratings and greater debts than white applicants. That
	in turn, contributes to the higher minority
	mortgage rejection rates, the study's authors said."


>|Now, if the government wanted to find
>|actual racial bias, they could simply pick up the phone and call, say,
>|the Society of Black Engineers.

>Right.  In any case, Terry, you're wrong.

Since such "studies" never find a "minority" who was denied a mortgage
who was a better credit risk than a "majority" who received a mortgage,
but instead cook data showing poorer people receive fewer loans into
a claim that people who are "minorities" are always denied loans, I doubt it.

The difference is my position that a bank which engages in racial 
discrimination engages in racial discrimination and your position 
that a bank which doesn't engages in racial quotas engages in 
racial discrimination.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: era@csn.org
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:11:36 GMT
Reply-To: era@csn.org ()
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: era@teal.csn.org

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms.
Colorado's Amendments 1 and 2 are the extremists' most obvious successes
to date.      
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: History (was Re: alt.discrimination = alt.caucasian whining)
Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:53:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan15.053458.13671@athena.mit.edu> agoyo1@athena.mit.edu (Acee Agoyo) writes:
>In article <1993Jan15.010511.4963@panix.com> sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart) 
> writes:
>>And if you think that Europeans
>>"stole" this country from the natives, I suggest you study some pre-
>>Columbian history.  They "stole" it from the tribe who "stole" it from
>>the tribe who... who "stole" it from the first tribe to settle there.
>No, I suggest that you study some history and understand why your attempt
>to rid the American government of any of its blame in the hostile takeover
>of the land on which Native Americans lived fails.  If European explorers
>didn't "steal" the land, where did it go?

My point isn't that the Europeans didn't "steal" the land; rather,
that the people they "stole" it from were equally thieves and had no
better claim to it than the descendants and successors of those
Europeans do now.

>>As I mentioned above, many times it was other Native Americans.
>Oh, I get it.  The European explorers didn't steal any land at all!  In fact
>all of it is still owned by Native Americans as we speak!  I guess there _is_ 
>some great conspiracy occuring that I don't know about.  Yes, everybody, the
>USA is simply on rented by the American government!  And I wonder why Native
>Americans live below the poverty level?  With the government paying rent,
>there should be a great influx of money!  Damn, I must be missing something. . .

I see.  You wish to group all the Native Americans as one single
group.  They tended to group themselves by tribes.  If all land had to
be returned to its original inhabitants (aside from the fact that
almost no country on Earth would continue to exist; for instance,
there were Whites in Japan before the Orientals moved in) then the
tribes that the Europeans kicked out wouldn't own that land anyway.

Seth
From: era@csn.org
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:11:36 GMT
Reply-To: era@csn.org ()
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Originator: era@teal.csn.org

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms.
Colorado's Amendments 1 and 2 are the extremists' most obvious successes
to date.      
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:23:37 GMT

>|> 	"Blacks and Hispanics do, for example, tend to have weaker
>|> 	credit ratings and greater debts than white applicants. That
>|> 	in turn, contributes to the higher minority
>|> 	mortgage rejection rates, the study's authors said."

>That is correct. The article goes on to say that this is why the new study was
>necessary. Old studies compared people with different credit records, but the new
>study only compared people with similar records.

People with perfect credit records were compared with people with perfect
credit records and people with other than perfect credit records were
compared with people with other than perfect credit records. And people
with one late payment, having less than perfect credit records were
compared with supposedly equal people with twenty late payments, having less
than perfect credit records.

>|> >|Now, if the government wanted to find
>|> >|actual racial bias, they could simply pick up the phone and call, say,
>|> >|the Society of Black Engineers.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 03:41:29 GMT

dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:

>In article <C1BKqu.GIE@ais.org> tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler) writes:

>>>Well Tim... When was the last time you walked in a AfAm area of town ?
>>>Gone to a AfAm university ? Shopped in an area that was mostly AfAm or 
>>>even worked at a job where you were the only "white" person present ?

>>    I don't see how this is relevent, but the neighborhood I live in is 
>>probably about 70% black.  I say "probably," because the issue has never
>>really mattered to me, until *you* made the dumb implication that I live in
>>a 'white' area of town.

>Where do you live ? Well the issue might not matter to you but it sure
>matters to a whole lot of white people. Maybe you are one of the 
>exception. The statement I made above is relevant because the type of
>interaction depends on where the interaction takes place. To interact
>with someone on a job is alot different than interacting with that 
>person at home.     

Why do you consider Tim the exception?  What evidence do you have that
the situation you describe is the rule?  It isn't.  It may _seem_ that
way, because discrimination sticks out like a sort thumb (esp. since
it's often blown way out of proportion).  The "silent majority" of
folks of all races aren't so caught up on skin color or any other
notable feature.  It's the extremists on all sides that make the news
and form the stereotypes.

>     Many whites talk about how they don't mind AfAms in "their" areas but
>won't venture into a AfAm area. If color doesn't matter then whites
>should feel comfortable no matter where they are ..... Right ??

Wrong.  White folks have as much right to fear discrimination and
race-based violence as everyone else.  Using your reasoning, minority
members who feel that color doesn't matter should feel comfortable no
matter where they are, too.  Do they?

[...]

>>    My recommendation to you --for whatever it is worth-- is that you place
>>less importance on color, & more on the quality of individuals.  I think a
>>great American once had words to that effect.

>This would be nice but no matter what you do it usually comes back to
>color, gender or some other factor that makes us different that many people
>use in trying to claim superiority over another.
>Personally, I don't care what the color of the person is nor do I care 
>about the gender of a person but if someone wants to make it an issue I
>am not going to back down from my views.

I'm afraid it appears to me that you _do_ care about color.  You make
many generalizations about whites.  That's the definition of
prejudice.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------

                     Dallas Cowboys -- NFC Champions
                           The 'Boys are Back!
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5665 soc.culture.african.american:14219
From: isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Institutional racism
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:54:18 GMT
	<ISBELL.93Jan20113253@panther.ai.mit.edu>
	<C17zF8.HzM@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: panther.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu's message of 21 Jan 93 19:57:05 GMT

hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
[...]
|>How utterly and completely pathetic.  When folks have "perfect"
|>records, banks hop all over them.  When folks have a non-perfect
|>record (>80% of the applicants, btw), Whites are more likely than
|>Blacks to be approved.

|>The article makes perfectly clear that only groups of equal applicants
|>were compared.

|How do you decide that applicants are equal?  There is no way to get a
|complete list of all of the criteria involved; we have no way to codify
|the information into an intelligible form.  I have looked at far too
|many applicants for support for graduate school not to realize how 
|inadequate the information available is for the purpose.

They took the 39 attributes that banks/loaning institutes use, that's
how.  Not at all the same thing as picking a grad student, for
heaven's sake.

|The information supplied is not the person.  I suggest that if you have
|the necessary background, you look at a sound statistics book, and look
|at the notion of "regression."  It is valid here.

If I look at one more stats book, I'll scream.  I've had all the
regression I can stand after reading my advisor's papers and
references, thank you very much.

--
Peace.
"Mars is essentially in the same orbit... somewhat the same distance from the
 Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals,
 we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If
 oxygen, that means we can breathe."
                -- Vice President Dan Quayle
                                   -\--/-
    Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
          develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
                                   -/--\-
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:56:12 GMT

In article <C19KFG.LMA@ais.org> tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler) writes:
>In article <1993Jan16.014052.11184@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>>This is just what needs to be done. When someone makes a comment like the
>>one your father made, then he must be challenged. I think the problem
>>is that very few whites actually interact with AfAms. As a minority, we
>>have no choice but to interact with whites because whites control the
>>money in this country. If we want a job chances are our employer will
>>be white.
> 
>   Are you saying that (in general), whites don't interact with black, but
>blacks interact with whites?
> 
>  Oh yeah, isn't it the Jews that control $$ in this country?  And don't
>forget those 'disrespectful' Koreans...
>
>   Saying that "whites control the money in this country" is just as
>ignorant/racist as saying "Blacks control the violent crime in this
>country."
>
>
Well Tim... When was the last time you walked in a AfAm area of town ?
Gone to a AfAm university ? Shopped in an area that was mostly AfAm or 
even worked at a job where you were the only "white" person present ?

>-- 
> Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
>P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
>Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
>48197


Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: AA
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:57:16 GMT

>Remember though, that AA didn't appear by magic.

Precisely. The same flawed logic which caused the problem came up
with this "solution". The county clerk who worked at coming
up with ways to keep Blaks from voting now works as an AA administrator
coming up with ways to keep Caucasians from getting promotions.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:00:31 GMT

>|> Were people with equivalent credit defects compared? No. So this data

>YES! You are wrong Terry. Only people with equivalent credit records were
>compared.

As reported, people with perfect credit histories were compared with 
people with perfect credit histories and people with other than perfect
credit histories were compared with people with other than perfect
credit histories--people with one late payment were compared with
people with twenty late payments.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination