HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lazarus@wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart -Laz- Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The pentagram
Date: 1 Sep 1992 23:24:49 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu


Well, MY understanding was that the Pentagram was first used by the earliest of
CHRISTIANS, with the points representing the hands, feet, and head of Jesus Christ
as he hung from the cross.  The symbol is still found, in fact, on a Christian
Church in eastern Europe, I believe.  (The source was a book researched by one of
my housemates in Wichita.  I can't remember the name off hand, but I CAN find out
and relate it later!)

Now, how it came into usage by any of the pagan sects, I DON'T know.  I'm assuming
that a decidedly anti-Christian group took it and used the upside down version
as a protest to Christianity... leading to Christians' recognition of the symbol
in ANY of its forms as a sign of Satan.  (That and their adoption of the cross as
their own symbol...)

--
Bart -Laz- Smith
Kansas State University
A survivor of the *Prodigy "network"
The 'Cats WILL rule in '92!
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mmig6535@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mark Inaba)
Subject: Re: Learning Styles
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:08:18 GMT

	Oops, you should email me directly at:
shadow@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu, i'm not sure how long i'll have this
account and I'm not sure how often I'll get to read the news.
:)

-Mark
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: The Pentagram
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 07:38:44 GMT

amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:

>The idea of the pentagram with point up being "good" and point down being 
>"evil" is a relatively recent development; as far as I can tell, it was 
>originated with Eliphas Levi and then popularized by Anton LaVey, to be then 
>picked up by fundamentalist Christian "satan-hunters."  Levi is the first 
>person I know of to draw the now-infamous "horned goat head" inside a point-
>down pentagram.

In Wicca, there are several opinions on this subject.  British Gardnerian and
Alexandrian Witches use the inverted pent as the sign for the second degree, 
only putting it upright in the third.  I've seen one or two references in
WomensCraft to using the inv. pent. for grounding.  I've been using it for
banishing for about the last year and a half.  For me, it just seems easier
to have upright bring stuff in and the inverted take stuff away.  This avoids
all the confusions with pents that dyslexic folks have been having.  However,
all the versions of Wicca which I have seen use the pent agree on it being the
five elements.  It is also the five gods in some versions of the Craft--an
interpretation I prefer.  I use the solar cross for the five elements.

Thanks for the informative post, Amanda!

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Subject: Re: AGLA
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 18:22:50 GMT

[...]

> My question still remains, however-- how could it be pronounced? If we 
> treat it as a word, just as we treat ascii as a word and pronounce it 
> ass-key, how _could_ it be pronounced within the various dialects?


Use the pronounciations that work.


hiho
-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:19:52 GMT

This whole thing is way off the original topic, so I suggest we drop
it.

I still say AC was a miserable human being who abused, exploited, 
cheated, and deceived his friends.  I will revise that opinion
in the light of better information about his life, which the
flame-masters have consistently omitted to provide.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ramsay@unixg.ubc.ca (Keith Ramsay)
Subject: Re: Learning Styles
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:48:21 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.224828.21707@samba.oit.unc.edu>
shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
[...]
>	Think -- study first, do later, integrate somewhere in the process
>	Feel -- conceptualize and integrate, then do and study
>	Do -- play with and do things, study, and then integrate
>
>Most academic types are Thinks.  These are people who find it easy to learn
>by 'reading the book/manual.'

This is only peripherally relevant, but it might be worth pointing out
that in academic research work, as opposed to student study/work, the
emphasis shifts appreciably toward the "feel" aspect. One of the most
brilliant people I've met was the sort who'd have to stop lectures,
saying, "I'm confused". As J.E.Littlewood wrote, "Most of the best
work starts in hopeless muddle and floundering, sustained on the
`smell' that something is there."

My guess is that this is true of most fields of endeavor.

Keith Ramsay
ramsay@unixg.ubc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: Crowely's Significanc
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 04:18:43 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 08-30-92 15:08

 T(> Tom:

 T(> By the way, "blitzkrieg" (the tactics Hitler used to conquer
 T(> so many nations) was invented by a disciple of Crowley (see
 T(> "Memoirs of an Unconventional Soldier" (J.F.C. Fuller) and
 T(> the "plan 1919" material.

Thank you for answering a question that had been bothering me for along time!
Not too long ago, I was in an Occult bookstore and noticed a collection by
J.F.C. Fuller. Hmmmm...I thought. It CAN'T be the same Fuller that (along
with Basil Liddel-Heart) expounded on the theories of Mechanized warfare
throughout the '20's and '30's. It seems it was!

Fuller was one of the proponents of the all arms concept of armoured warfare.
He theorized that an independent armoured division...fast moving and
powerful, could force a quick decison by long range penetration of an enemy's
front and disruption of the enemy's communications to the rear.

His theories were ignored in his own country...but...taken up with a great
deal of enthusiasm in Germany, notably by Heinz Guderian. The rest, is
history.

I found it interesting that one of the top 5 militairy theorists in this
century was also a colleague of Crowley!...amazing in fact!


... ------>|* MARK!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
---
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:44:56 GMT

friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin) writes:
: In <199208202135.AA15944@intercon.com> amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker) writes:
: > (folks at my last job dubbed me 
: >"the information vampire" :)).
: 
: 
: >Peace,
: 
: >Amanda Walker
: 
: May I address you with the honorific, "Madame Vampire?"   :-)

I know how you feel. If I don't read at least 4 books a week, I start
feeling withdrawal symptoms. :-)

Bill
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The pentagram
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:03:00 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <181fmhINNfsp@wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu>, lazarus@wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu (Bart
-Laz- Smith) writes:
>
>Well, MY understanding was that the Pentagram was first used by the earliest
>of CHRISTIANS, with the points representing the hands, feet, and head of
>Jesus Christ as he hung from the cross.  The symbol is still found, in fact,
>on a Christian Church in eastern Europe, I believe.  (The source was a book
>researched by one of my housemates in Wichita.  I can't remember the name off
>hand, but I CAN find out and relate it later!)
>
>Now, how it came into usage by any of the pagan sects, I DON'T know.  I'm
>assuming that a decidedly anti-Christian group took it and used the upside
>down version as a protest to Christianity... leading to Christians'
>recognition of the symbol in ANY of its forms as a sign of Satan.  (That and
>their adoption of the cross as their own symbol...)

Actually, you're way off base on this one, if any of my sources are correct...

The Pentagram was a Pagan symbol before Christiananity came about.  When the
Xitans started to attack the neighboring countries in a Holy War (The Dark
Ages, remember???) the Xitans stole quite a bit of the local religions and
melded it into Xitananity to make it more palateable to the locals.

The Pentagram at the time was lifted from the Pagans and adopted as a Xitan
symbol.

As the Xitans became the dominate unquestionable religion in "all parts of the
known world" (Note Quotes) they decided to try to completely destroy the
remanents of the Pagan beleifs.

(NOTE:  By this time the Xitan beleifs had already been altered to an extent
that is still seeable today.  Xmas was placed where it was because it was a
date close to the Winter Solstace.  Easter falls on a date that is decided on
the moon.  Another one was placed on the Summer Solstace.  Etc...)

It was only when the Xitans came to America, did the Pentagram take on a
Satanic meaning, and then only reversed at first...

Actually there are still a few of the old Churches still standing (and in use)
in Old Europe that still have the Penragram inscribed in the stained glass...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Xref: sparky alt.magick:4119 soc.culture.german:6112 soc.culture.jewish:14999
From: markk@sagredo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Kampe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Crowley's Significance? (Hitler)
Date: 28 Aug 1992 16:33:23 GMT
Organization: SunSoft South
NNTP-Posting-Host: sagredo.west.sun.com

Now wait just a minute.  You can bad-mouth Hitler all you want (or Reagan
for that matter) but where do you get off painting Aleister Crowley with the
same brush?  How much Crowley have you read?  Have you read his practical
books (e.g. "Liber Legis"), his metaphysical books (e.g. "The Book of Lies"),
his human potential books (e.g. "Diary of a Drug Fiend"), his ongoing
ramblings (Equinox), his scholarly works on the history of Fremasonry, 
his explorations of Egyptian mysticism from (then) recent Hieratic translations,
... have you ever read anything that he actually wrote?!

He believed strongly in personal power but he also believed very strongly 
in personal responsibility.  He was styled (in Victorian England) as "the most 
evil man on earth", but he was actually a man with very reasonable aims and 
methods.  

If he were alive in the second half of the present century noone would have 
noticed him because most of his beliefs are now "mystically main-stream".
While he might be "hedonistically" on a par with Timmothy Leary, Richard
Alpern and other '60s luminaries, he was scholastically (and in life 
achievements) an order of magnitude above those "merry prankseters".


Crowley's perpetual benediction was:

	'Do what thou wilt' shall be the whole of the law.

People who haven't read Crowley think this is a statement of hedonistic
license.  They could not be farther from the truth.  It is a very powerful
standard that few of us (certainly not I) are able to live up to.  It requires 
us to find the purpose for which we were created, and then to dedicate 
ourselves fully to the fulfillment of that purpose.  I suspect his belief 
was that if we were fullifilling that obligation

	we would be making the world a much better place

	we would be making ourselves much better people

	we would not have the time or inclination to do wrong to others

	we wouldn't need stupid laws because people wouldn't do stupid things

Crowley felt that his purpose in life was to help others find their own.
He was actually much closer to Herman Hesse than he was to Adolf Hitler.
He was a rare blend of nineteenth century discipline, scholarship and 
romanticism.  We will not see his like again soon.  

If you want to judge a teacher, judge him by his desciples ... did you ever 
hear Krishnamurti speak or read any of his work.  The "sage of Ojai" was 
selected and raised by Anne Bessant (who left London after Crowley's death) 
... and if Krishnamurti was an example of Crowley/Theosophy training, our
world could use many more like him.


Towards "the one" ...

	---mark---
From: lynx@terapin.com (Debbie Caraway)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Date: 26 Aug 92 12:07:35 PST
Organization: BBS

>This isn't a flame, and this certainly doesn't represent my point of view on
the
>
>use of magick for such ends.  If someone asks for information of this sort and
>you wish to share it with them, then please do, but I for one am tired of 
>hearing the same old speech of "With great power comes great responsibilty"
ever
>
>time this subject is raised.
>
>If you want to tell them how to do it, then fine.
>If you think that it's "morally" incorrect, then quietly ignore the post.
>

****

Nah, I disagree with you compltely.  If someone is asking for information about
doing something and is perhaps unaware of the consequenses, then it's
rather cruel not to give them the very info. they may need to make a good
decision.  For the consideration of everybody it needs to be said.  It's like
holding back crucial information.

A kid may have never seen the state driving book with those rules for the road
and consequences.  The kid may be physically capable of driving and have a
natural feel and good intentions.  Are you gonna give em the keys, cuz you're
tired of talk on consequences?  

The person who asked about the empathy thang had good intentions and was asking
for help perhaps out of frustration with people encountered.  Who knows how
many people, along with the original poster had not the experience to think
through the thought to even begin to see the consequences.  I think by sharing
that awareness otheres can appreciate and have greater respect for the
complexity of the situation.  

I was one such observer just following the disc. here philosophically.  I could
understand the frustration of the original poster with such people.  
I'm kinda the non-barrier type with an analytical attitude.  Anyways, on the
surface, the idea sounded pretty nifty.  It wasn't until others mentioned
things that boadened the awareness of what also was involved.  I think that
flip side is important to mention especially since the information here is read
by people with mixed awarenesses, experiences and referents.

From my perspective, I'd be more interested in finding out how to put those
barriers up that for whatever reason, I never did.  The flip side that I've
seemed to be aware of is that this also seems to allow me to tap int a creative
side.  Whether that's a similar port to magik, I don't know.  The difficult
part is that empathy does not imply tolerance or patience.  Understanding
helps, but the feelings need to be interpreted.  In general, I don't have much
respect for most people.  I also have a very difficult time with doctors and
dentists cuz of how I react.

Whereas addinf information may help, omitting it may do more harm.  I think
it's worth the slight inconvenience to some.  (2 cents worth)
From: IO10536@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pagan Computer Chuckle
Date: 28 Aug 92 04:49:08 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

Amanda:
  Re your sig....  *grin*
Ubi, O ubi, est meus sub-ubi?
-qvintvs
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: AGLA
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:29:39 EDT

Hello,

wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes...

> I'd like to collect some input on pronunciqations for the "godname" AGLA 
> as used in the lesser banishing.....

I hope you know it is an abbreviation ('notarikon').  The 4 letters are the
first letters of a four word phrase.  Thus, it's not a 'real' Hebrew word,
and has no set pronounciation.

BUT, I'm sure that Kaballah scholars have come around that particular
difficulty with some kind of method.  Maybe one can use the 'natural' vowels
that come after each of the 4 consonants A-G-L-A in either (1) the names of
those letters, or (2) the words that make up the phrase.

(For casual readers that don't know much about Hebrew, 'A' is used here as
a consonant, not a vowel.  It is a glottal stop.)

By the way, although I may have seen these somewhere, does anyone know the
actual words that make up this particular notarikon?

And how about ARARITA?  It's written in the notes to the G.D. 7=4 ritual as:

ACHAD RASH ACHADUTHA RASH YEYEHUDA TEMURITHA ACHAD,

but does anyone know the actual Hebrew letters?  There is some ambiguity
here.

> Any 'real' or 'would-be' hebrew scholars available for comment?

I guess I'm a 'wannabe'.  I'm currently transcribing the 1st 3 books of
Genesis into a more 'readable' form of Hebrew (i.e. Roman letters).  Why?
Who knows.  I may do the same someday with the _Enuma_Elish_, and maybe
Hesiod's _Theogony_.  Creation myths have a kind of power for me, as do
ancient languages.
____________________________________________________________________________
   "A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission!"  

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: spb0457@zeus.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Subject: Re: Unicursal Hexagram AND Thoth Tarot
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:04:00 GMT

cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes...
>Hello,
>I think there must be a difference between either...
>(a)  the Large and Small versions, or
>(b)  decks sold in different countries, or something.
>I just bought the 'small' deck a week ago in Philadelphia, PA (for about 14
>bucks - yeesh), and there is no such card.

+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
Pardon my drooling ignorance, but exactly what do you mean by "large" and
"small" decks?  As in, one deck only has 95 cards and another has 61, as in
one deck being 8x10 and another wallet size, or what?

The only Thoth Deck that I've actually used passed out of my possession
some years ago.  The cards were slightly smaller in length and width than
a paperback book.  The deck consisted of the usual seventy-eight cards;
twenty-two trumps and fifty-six minor cards.  The latter was divided into
four suits:  Wands, Cups, Swords and Discs.  Each suit consisted of four
court cards and ten numbered cards.

No blanks, no mysterious hexagrams, no baseball trading cards.





-SubG
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Shielding <was: Re: Empathic question>
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:22:06 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <83950130@otter.hpl.hp.com> cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes:
>B.A. Davis-Howe writes:
>>but I felt it important to point out that the visual methods are not the only
>>methods.  Unfortunately, they are the only ones anybody writes about.  This is
>>probably partly because they are much easier to describe, but there is an
>>unfortuante prejudice toward sight in books on magic.  Many of them, including
>>most of the books I respect most, state categorically that the skill you 
>>*have* to learn is visualisation.  I have a friend who has called down 
>>thunderstorms
>>on a number of occasions, but was unable to visualise well enough to remember
>>what her lover's face looked like.  So much for the necessity of 
>>visualisation.
>>
>That's a good point. I began to develop a real chip on my shoulder about
>visualisation until I realised I had been routinely walking around "stroking"
>things with my mind and "feeling" their texture. I don't have a third eye,
>I have a third hand.

Whereas I have a spacial, rather than kinetic, sense?  My sense of 
imagined objects has to do with force and space, rather like one might
perceive a web of forces on a chess board, or the feelings of tension
among individuals in a design meeting or over Thanksgiving dinner or
in a courtroom.  It is heavily tied in to my emotional and healing
senses.  It is not visual, but I usually describe it as such when I
describe it to others -- people deal with the idea of a cloud of light
rather than a field of [not necessarily readily characterizable] energy,
much more readily.

What other people perceive as light or heat or whathaveyou, I generally
experience as fields of energy not necessarily even tied down or 
reflecting 'physical reality.'  I have developed a translation table
from this sense into some of the traditional visualizations.  For example,
I couldn't see an aura to save my life, but I can 'look' with this sense
at a person, and *describe* their aura by translating my feeling about
their energy into the conventional imagery of aura reading.

Recently I started feeling a little left out because I was not getting
the visual stuff so many people seem to get with shamanic-related work.
My images in shamanistic work *live* in this abstract world of force and
space.  I am not visually oriented (in fact, I was supposed to be blind
by the time I was 20, so I tuned most other senses much better as a child).
So I talked to my HGA about this, and I found that I could either go
full-spectrum all senses, or live with force-shadows.  Force-shadows
are much easier to re-orient from...;)

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */