From: jlzhong@vision.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Change my strength?
Date: 22 Nov 1992 21:30:11 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: vision.csl.uiuc.edu

Tero,

Okey, one last time to clear my position. Before that, I suggest that you read
the whole thread and try to understand me objectively. I think my postings are
consistent and clear.

cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:

>In article <1enq8aINNlb9@roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu> jlzhong@focus.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong) writes:
>>Hi Tero,
>>
>>cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1endjmINNifl@roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu> jlzhong@uirvli.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong) writes:
>>>>While believe or not, I will never set my rank to 3.5UFO (only an example)
>>>>although UFO is some kind of standard on igs. The whole thing is not which
>>>>ranking system is better. Igs is only an informal forum for go lovers to have
>>>>a place to play. Any ranking system, even the UFO system, is not and will not
>>>>be perfect. So what is the point? As I and Youyi pointed out before, play with
>>>[cut]
>>
>>>You know, this thing cuts both ways. You say you don't understand why
>>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>some people want a ranking system, but what _I_ don't understand is why
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>some people (not you, necessarily, you might not just give a damn
>>
>>I said, if you read my posting again and carefully, that I did not understand
>>why some people were so worried about other people's ranking. I hope you
>>quote me right if you want to quote. 

>You said: "Any ranking system, even the UFO system, is not and will not
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>be perfect. So what is the point?". To me, that translates to "I don't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>understand why there should be a ranking system".

I mean no matter what system you use, it won't be perfect. There will always
be some poeple whining loadly. So what is the point to change from one system
to another. Also I made myself very clearly on this, which part, for some
reason, you did not quote in your response.

>>Be frank with you, what I mean is that
>>I don't understand why, for example, a 7kyu worries about whether a 7 dan is
>>a real 7 dan or not. Do you think the worry is necessary? 

>Depends what you mean by necessary. Okay, to a 7 kyu it might not
>(actually, doesn't) matter whether somebody is 7, 6, or 5 dan. However,
>to a 1d it might. Believe it or not, some people want to get as even a
>match (even if it is only theoretically) as possible, and some people
>like to gauge their development. Now, please don't say these people
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>should leave!
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Once again, DON'T TRY TO PUT YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I, never in any way,
has such feeling that any people should leave igs. I just pay no attention
to people that I feel uncomfortable with. I have no right to ask anyone to
leave.

As far as I know, most of the people that yell loadly about fake 6ds, 7ds
are ranked about 1kyu (no hard feeling). An 1kyu is about 6 or more handicaps 
away from the real 7ds. From my experience, I never worried about whether
a guy who can give me 6 handicaps properly ranked. I was concerned how to
really improve my game to get to h-5.

>>What I don't give
>>a damn is not which particular ranking system (I happen to have the view that
>>there is no perfect way to rank players on igs, too bad). I don't give a damn
>>to whether or not someone who I don't even know is a true 7kyu (only as an 
>>example) or not. I am more concerned about the game than how other people
>>should be properly ranked.
>>

>Yes, you are. But are you willing to allow a system that doesn't effect
>the way you can view games, but does accommodate those who feel a
>ranking system is an improvement?

I only watch games of someone whose games are interesting to me. I don't
watch game randomly, nor according to the rank. The real strength of those 
players are of concern to me, not their rankings. I know a lot of good players 
ranked NR, ???, or even as low as 30k. I would be glad to watch their games. 
However, I won't watch some 6d's even if they can win some games.

No, I won't want to block the way of any system that most of the igsers
support to implement. However, I can foresee a lot of people will start
to critisize your new more restricted system as soon as it starts. And 
the adminstrator of igs will have to deal with the complains from those 
more "serious" players of the "unmoral, unethical" way of their opponents
to win a game.

>>>(frankly)) seem to vehemently *oppose* the idea. My view: as long as you
>>>can still set the rank manually, and the server doesn't force handicaps
>>>according to rank, those that don't care about ranks can continue to do
>>>so.
>>
>>Okey, so what is the point? There still will be a mass on igs.

>Three points spring to mind.

>1. You have to ask the rank anyway when you start a game.
>2. You can gauge your development, even if only roughly.
>3. Somebody who really doesn't know his/her rank can get a rough
>   estimate.

>Again I ask: why oppose it? What are the drawbacks (except for the
>programmers)?

Okey, my point is that igs is not neighborhood go club. I would like
see it as a loose forum that people can make friends through playing go and
learn and improve yourself in the meantime. Due the unique feature of igs,
I think igs has offered all options to everyone already. What I don't
want to see is that igs becomes a serious competition place for very few
"serious" players, which, I think, is not good for anybody, including
"serious" players.

>	Tero Sand

>-- 
>	EMail: cust_ts@cc.helsinki.fi   or   custts@cc.helsinki.fi
>   "I feel most ministers who claim they've heard God's voice are eating
>too much pizza before they go to bed at night, and it's really an 
>intestinal disorder, not a revelation." - Reverend Jerry Falwell

Jialin
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