HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: philz@ee.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: My suggestions (re-post)
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:30:52 GMT
Reply-To: philz@ee.umanitoba.ca
Organization: Indiana University
Comments: To: China-nt <china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu>

For those netters who support these suggestions, please save a copy of
this file and post it to this net as frequently as you want.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just realized that due to some technical problems, some netters may not
see my suggestions. Here is a re-posting for them.

Regards,

Haosheng Zhou


                       Suggestions to All Netters
     -------------------------------------------------------------

These suggestions are designed for promoting healthy discussions in this
net. You are encouraged to follow these suggestions when in discussions.
Use your common sense for interpreting the meanings of these suggestions
as there will be no official meanings for them. If you do NOT want to
follow these suggestions, it is O.K. In any case, these suggestions
should not be interpreted either as a censorship against the freedom of
speech or as a constitution for this net.

     -------------------------------------------------------------

1) try to respect, understand and tolerate your opponents;

2) be responsible to all netters;

3) stop discussions when you cannot convince your opponents after
clearly expressing your ideas;

4) try to concentrate on related topics;

5) try to be rational, not emotional; Try to be as specific as possible
in discussions; Try to give clear definitions for important concepts,
especially for those related with China, Chinese people, China's
interests etc;

6) try not to post your response immediately if you feel that you are
too emotional, rather, re-think about it and post it on the next day;

7) try to be positive, not negative; For example, instead showing how
others' are bad, try to show that you may have better ideas;

8) try to avoid using nasty words such as 'shit' in your postings.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Whose fault is it anyway?
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:00:37 GMT

In article <Bu2rDt.52K@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "Ignatius Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM> writes:
>(Forwarded message)
>===============================================================================
>
>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:52:14 PDT
>>From: plowe@falcore.synoptics.com (Patricia Lowe)
>To: ding@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com
>Subject: Re:  Whose Fault is it anyway?
>Status: RO
>
>In an ideal world, U.S. could help setup forums of overseas Chinese in the
>U.S., escaped Chinese dissidents, and Chinese government officials to hammer
>out a mutually agreeable program of social, political and economic reform.
Here is the fundermental diference between "D-fighters" and those who have
second thoughts on West(U.S.). I wish I have time to express myself more, but
I have do prepare exame. Let me throw couple of quick, brief points:
   The purpose of West democratize the world is for themself first, like
what they did in christianizing the world. indications:
   1. It is easier politically for them to influence the perspective nation
for the good of West:
   example: once Italy was about to have an election, which a party is not
U.S. favorite was about to win. CIA channel compaign money to the favorite 
opposition, the election results rewarded CIA's effort. Do you want China is
suject to this influence?
            1948(?), Nationalists government of Iran was about to nationalize
oil companies in Iran, CIA payed each protestor $50 for them to hit street.
Chaos caused overthrow the nationalistic government, replaced by a pupet 
government. Do you want CHina subject to this?
   2. Economic reasons:
West had pretty matured industries. companies are more suitable for
international competition(no long always true, but most cases). Totally free
market would turn a non-West nation in to economic bankcrupcy. Like in
E-Europe, upto 50% of industries closed door. Well publicized Aid to Ex-Soviet
$24 billion. $18 billion never left West, went ex-creditors who lent money to
Soviet. IMF used $1 billion to tease Russia, for more "free" market, while
>60% of Russians wanted more state-control(another extream).

There are plenty of good staff in West Values. We should treat them as tools,
not objectives. We should study them carfully, choose what is good for CHina.
Refuse those that are harmful to China. We should take reprocaution when When
accept the West values(e.g. strict law against foreigners involvement in
china's politics.)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: George Zhu <zhu@RISKY.ECS.UMASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re:  Clean Up CHINA-NT
Reply-To: George Zhu <zhu@RISKY.ECS.UMASS.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:43:51 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

It's so interesting to notice that, exactly one year ago, here on
this very China-nt, people were arguing/debating/urging/opposing
the then controversial China-nt rules announced by the China-nt
management committee.  And there're tremendous similarities between
then and now: some asking for censorship from "authority", some opposing
it citing freedom of speech, some ...

Looks like kind of one year anniversary for that "historic" debate. :-)

George
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Zhiping Liu <liuz@DS20.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject:      Pledon't take the thread
Reply-To: Zhiping Liu <liuz@DS20.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:12:13 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Dear Fellows,

First, please ignore William Deng's new article on Russian, PLEASE DO
NOT TAKE THE THREAD! All our netters have suffered from flood of junks
in our mail boxes due to the initial agitating post by this Deng.
We all know that this guy loves some hot-fight-lovers to take his
article seriously and keeps posting his stuff. It is really disappointing
to see so many fighter-lovers took Deng's words and fought back.
Be aware this time, neglecting is the best answer and I'm sure Mr. Deng
will feel alone and get a life from somewhere.

Secondly, to William or Gang Deng, please post your stuff to
talk.politics.china but not China-Nt. As we all know that China-Nt
is for the discussions relating to IFCSS business.  Please show some
respect to the rules, my dear fellow.


liu zhiping
Florida State University
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: eleea4f@rosie.uh.edu (Zhuang, Wei)
Subject: test
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 02:53:00 GMT

test
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re. "Bo Xiong" & "Suggestions"
Reply-To: Gu yeming <yeming@SCLERA.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 18:26:47 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

It's sad to see the unnecessary debate is still going on
and it is getting further and further away from the issue.

Once I saw a cartoon by Hua Junwu on the "People's Daily":
A desperate guy lies on a bench, with his butt exposed,
and screaming: "Beat me! Beat my butt and I will be famous."

There are people who is desperate to become "famous", to
become the "center of attention" (or more appropriate, the
center of controversy), so desperate that he dares to take
credit for almost anything he did and did (could) not do.

By now, we know whose action caused the fall of Hu
Yaobang, who is a "politically-mature" "democracy-fighter"
(God knows the rest of us are so naive, but luckily, there
are bright ones who is working hard to save us and save
China too), and many other things ...

As you know, diversity is a key for this country (US), so
I am not surprised to see someone so willing to expose his
butt, but I am surprised to see many of us did go there and
kick it (even some famous ones; as you can see, he has not
answered a trivial question for days, yet he responded to
a "CND guy" in a big way).

I thought it was unnecessary to respond when someone said
"poor Arizona state," but somehow I feel sorry for AEIC.

I fully agree with Haosheng Zhou's suggestions.  However,
freedom & democracy come with a big price.  For example,
you can not shot your neighbor's dog even if it keeps
barking during the night (so you can't sleep), and when
someone talks nonsense, you can go away but you can't
keep his mouth shut.

I hope we can put all these behind us and save some time to
do things meaningful and useful.

Y. Gu
U. of Arizona
From: heping@plasma.gatech.edu (Heping He)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: SUN Zhong-Shan...(from John Xu)
Date: 5 Sep 92 05:16:16 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep4.134213.4902@ecl.psu.edu> h1l@ecl.psu.edu writes:
|>John Xu write:
|>
|>|>  You accused ST of making the Sino-US relationship in jeopardy.  I think
|>|>  ST is lucky because you are not the Judge.  It is obvious who jeopardizes
|>|>  the Sino-US relationship.  The ball is at CCP's hand.
|>
|>FUCK!!!! You are "obviously" totaly blind! Who jeopardizes Sino-US relation?
  ^^^^^^^^
|>The fucking US want to be The God of the whole world. If somebody does not
      ^^^^^^^
|>listen to IT, IT would punish him if Uncle Sam is capable of doing so.  
|>Taiwan and other small gabbage poor or rich "free world" nations have good
|>relations with fucking US. But they have to obey their God's direvtives.
                 ^^^^^^^ 
|>US hates China because we are independent and strong. 
|>
|>You think you have the obligation to blame our Chinese government because 
|>you are eating uncle Sam's shit? You may think that is not your government.
|>Where is your "democratic" government? In your God father Mr. USA's blue-
|>prints, right?
>
>He Li  
>    

Have your mom washed your mouth before she gave your birth. Making such
swear words doesn't mean anything except reflecting your inability of
wording. Surely you don't need eating Uncle Sam's shxt but you better
speak english well to be qualified in this netland.

Heping
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Tak To <tto@aspentec.com>
Subject:      re: supporting Shen Tong
Reply-To: Tak To <tto@aspentec.com>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:07:29 GMT
Comments: To: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Gents,

I have been reading this thread for a while and it seems that some people
are confusing the following issues:

  1) Is the Chinese Government "wrong" in arresting Shen Tong?
  2) What should one do to help Shen Tong?

We do not have all the details about the circumstances under which Shen Tong
was arrested.  Nonetheless, based on the information we have at hand and my past
experience with the CG, I would guess that _most probably_ Shen did nothing
that was truely harmful to the government or China in general.  He _might_
have crossed some minor legal boundaries.  All in all I would say that his
human rights was violated and I deeply sympathize with him.

Now, #2 is a totally separated issue.  First of all, one is entitled to
decide how much of one's limited resources should be spent on helping
Shen Tong.  If one decides not to do anything, it does not necessarily mean
that one is against or indifferent to Shen; it simply means that one thinks
it is better to reserve one's resources for other causes.  Everyday all
over the world (and in China alone), there are many cases of human right
violation.  One cannot help _all_ of them.  Let's not call the non-
supporters names.  (I recall that in the student bill case, many chose to
help the Chinese [indirectly] at the expense of the Haitians.)

More important, when one is asking others to help, one should be considerate.
Try not to ask too much or too often, _even_for_the_sake_of_worthy_causes_.
Do not tire out the Congressmen (and do not overwork their fax machines and
phone lines); do not tire out the Press; and most importantly, do not tire
out the interest of the American public.

Now, when deciding how to help Shen, it is entirely reasonable to take his
his motive, his timing, etc. into consideration.  After all, one does not
want the Congressmen helping him end up thinking that they are helping a fool
(albeit a lovable fool) or a calculating extremist.  Even though a lot of
people (including myself) do not want to discuss it in the public in the fear
of hurting his case, please do not shout down those who want to discuss it.

As for Shen's interest vs China's interest etc--I have no desire to enter
the debate.

Tak To.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: utingli@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Tingli Pan)
Subject: Re: The book by Harry Wu: Comment
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:36:29 GMT

In article <BuM13v.4rA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>1. "Laogai: The Chinese Gulag" by Hongda Harry Wu ...................... 52
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Steve Haber (shaber@ccm.UManitoba.CA)
>Publisher: Westview Press; 247 pp. $34.95
>
>>....Deleted....
>>The death penalty
>>is applied for crimes as insignificant as the export of cultural relics
>
.....
>
>>One of the
>>reasons for the success of joint ventures with China is the fact that prison
>>labor is so cheap.
>
>So cheap, also so stupid and so unreliable. I haven't seen any economic
>research on this great proposition. I know there are some econmoists on
>this net. Does anyone want to pick up this topic? It will promise a
>breakthrough and a series of papers, if not another book. :-)
>
That is the trouble whenever an amature involved in politics. They tryed
to hang on with the situation, but as they are not pro, the only thing
they can do is exagerate the fact more and more until finaly they are
dumped by everybody. I've seen so many examples recently.

Tingli Pan
>
>
>William Deng
>
>(for the complete review article, please refer to 9/14/92's CND book reviews)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Re: The logic of "New World Order"
Reply-To: "Ignatius Y. Ding" <ding@HPSMTC1.CUP.HP.COM>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:35:51 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

>
> Yes, It is important for IFCSS to retain its independence on the MFN and
> other issues. Being called as a pawn is very ugly in Chinese culture.
>
> President Bush, as one of the biggest politicians on the current
> American political stage, vetoed more than once on the MFN issue. Of
> course, he has been doing this for certain group's interest. I am not
> familiar with American politics, but I am sure he's doing it for
> companies with large financial interests on this issue, not for the

   Maybe he has other reasons too....

> working class of the United States, not mention for the 6.4 victims or
> those still suffering like liu Gang and Wang Junntao.
>
> Also Bush is a big politician in the world. And he is the very leader
> who first boasts the "New World Order", of which the evil logic has been
> revealed by the author of the attached posting.
>
> Can IFCSS afford to be such bad American politican's pawn? Definitely
> no. IFCSS should be clear-minded and not be confused by his or his
> pawns' words on this issue, that is, an unconditional MFN is of the best
> interest of both nations' people.

  Don't quite agree with the UMFN point of view but the author of this piece is
  entitled to that opinion.

>
> P.S. It seems that, Chinese students are easily used as "pawns" by bad
> people. Three years ago thousands of students were used by black hands
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> in the 6.4 reactionary riot. Here we recently had another example: a
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <-------------------What is this?
  this article has been okay until this point.  CCP party line statement here?!

> student called Shen Tong was used by some American Scholars and Franch
> TV reporters. So, the elected IFCSS leaders should be very careful not
> to step too far on that dangerous road. And when someone well informed
> on America and world politics gives tips, listen or you'll get what you'd
> deserve as those previous "pawns".

Something went wrong with this article or it is ps purposely done this way
in order to slip in this reference of "the 6.4 reactionary riot" label??


Ignatius Ding
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: yunson@lpf.umd.edu (Yunson Du)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Crocodile's Tears - by Wang Ruowang
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:38:34 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

How about US? Blackhand of Isreal expansionism? Every
country does that. China is just one of them. 

Pity that even Wang becomes a running dog of US.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Ch. 8 of Shining Path on Mao
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 01:56:43 GMT

In article <9209080029.AA19239@news.cis.ohio-state.edu> SCIENCE%MITVMA.BITNET@ohstvma.acs.ohio-state.edu writes:
>
>
>Excerpt from Sendero Luminoso on Mao Zedong
>Ch. 8 from "CPP and Mao Tsetung"
>
>Central Committee
>The Communist Party of Peru, December 1987
>Reproduced by the People's Movement Peru of France.
>Distributed by the Comite Sol Peru
>Re-distributed by the Maoist Internationalist Movement on
>September 7, 1992
>
>The Maoist Internationalist Movement is proud to present these
>excerpts from the political documents of the Communist Party
>of Peru led by Comrade Gonzalo. To our knowledge, this is the
>first time these documents appear in the world of electronic
>communications. Since the original language of the translators
>is not English, we take some liberties in changing the grammar
>and idiomatic phrases of Maoism.
>
>Maoist Internationalist Movement
>PO Box 559
>Cambridge, MA 02140
For Shining Path to sucessedd, it has to adopt new technique according
to new situation. For example instead of promoting confisgation of Land
from LandLord, purchasing land from them via State Owned industries 
selling. This will face less resistance from Land Lords, if not  gain
support from them. And meet the desire of interlectuals to have less
buearacracy over industries. 
The goal should be to win, not to fight!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: echeng@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (Eddie Cheng)
Subject: Re: response to Mr. W. Dong and Mr. T. Bao's comments
Organization: The Ohio State University; Department of Phyiscs
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 20:15:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.194139.20873@cs.brown.edu> ylq@lems22lems.brown.edu (Yan Shen) writes:
>|> 
>The Constitution of United States which is more than 200 years old never states
>that any specific political organization or party is uniquely legitimate in 
>governing the country. But the Contsitution of PRC expilicitly states that. 

	No, the PRC Constitution only implicitly states that.  :-)

>So the Constitution is just a tool used to serve the CC party's governing. 
>That is to say, anyone who does not agree the CCP's policies is violating the 
>"law" or the Constitution of the PRC. This is why we see political prisoner in 
>China. 

	Not really.  At least theoretically, "not agree with CCP's
policies" does not consist of violating the Constitution, but challenging
CCP's leadership role does.  

>because that is 200 years old, and I never said it is not amendable. What I
>wanted to say there is no politician or party can enact any amendment
>to the Constitution of U.S. only by him/her/itself. 

	...which is true in both U.S. and China, although the procedures
differ.  (Deng can't change consitution single-handly either, he has to
get support from NPC.)

>
>If any so-called "law" is just the instrument of the governing party, this "law
>can not be justified as the law for every citizen to comply with. The reason is
>this kind of "law" just protect party's interests instead of citizen's basic 
>legal rights. 

	OK, so now you are talking about social disobienence, which is
fine.  But the major instrument of social disobience is to go to jail in
order to challenge the unjust law(s).  You do not cry about enemy locking
you up, but gladly accept the sentence and wish for a moral victory and/or
a big following such as a "lock-in" movement.  In this light, as in Gandi
and M. L. King case, the only way to support Shen Tong is to follow his
step and go to China to continue the challenging, instead of asking for his
release.

	But sadly, as I see it, both ST's action and the "support" here
are just for shows, not a serious disobience movement.



    Eddie
From: robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu (Henry Robertson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Question
Date: 9 Sep 1992 23:53:30 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

-Does karaoke exist in mainland China?

-Are college students required to serve in the armed forces?

-Is there a stock market in Beijing?

-Do their cars use leaded or unleaded gas?

-Do most citizens still wear Maoist suits?

I would appreciate your responses to robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu.

-
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: jjs@iedv7.acd.com ( James J. Song       )
Subject: Re:  Protest against the arresting of SHEN Tong
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:01:37 GMT

In article <Bu0sp2.LK@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
>Of course ST has the right to do what he wants. The point is should we
>support his action or not. If the action by ST which has such terrible
>damage on the sum of all Chinese' interests is acceptable even encouraged,
>how can we call Wang, Jing-wei the traitor (Han4 Jian1)? Because helping
>Japanese to control China and establishing another government in China
>is also Wang, Jinwei's basic human rights, according to some netter's logic.:-)
>
>
>William Deng

The point is "don't Zi4 Zuo4 Duo1 Qing2". Shen Tong did not ask you to 
support his action. He went back due to his own faith and conviction. 
Your cynical comments on his endeavor can only reveal your dirty mind 
and are in vain.
___