HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Re: Tae Kwan Do and the Kwans no more?
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:26:47 GMT
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA

In article <=ftzyjn@rpi.edu>, chungy2@aix.rpi.edu (Yau Felix Chung) writes:
|> Hello all!  For those out there in netland, I currently taking Tae Kwan Do
|> at my college club.  The style they teach is Chung Do Kwan.  Recently I
|> was told by a student outside our club, that there are no more kwans and
|> that there is just one "unified" TKD.  This standarizes the accepted forms
|> (hyoungs?).  Is this true?

This is basically true, although there are really a bunch of "unified" TKD
organizations.  I believe that Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan got together under
the Tang Soo Do name.  There may still be other schools that teach the styles
of the various Kwans, but I don't think that there are large organizations
for these styles like there is for TKD.

|> In addtion, what consequence does this have on a student who is not a
|> black bel and goes to another school where they do the current forms?  Would
|> the student have to start from white again?

Funny you should mention that.  I assume you are talking about the RPI TKD
club which I left when I was a 1st Gup.  (in fact, now that I think of it
are you the same RPI TKD student that I corresponded with a year or two ago?)
I didn't have to start from white again, but I *did* have to test for 1st
Gup in the new school.  I believe that this is a fairly standard practice.
I left the second school as a 1st Dan and had to re-test for 1st Dan in my
current school.  Both places accepted my at my current rank, but asked that
I test for that rank again.

I had to learn new forms both times I changed.  In both cases it was
expected that, since I wasn't a beginner, I would learn and become proficient
with the new forms more quickly than a beginner student.

I expect it differs from school to school.  For below Dan ranks, my current
instructor will sometimes give a student a white belt, but let them work out
with the advanced class until he has a feel for that person's level of skill,
then tell them to test for whatever rank that corresponds to.

|> I have also noticed that some of the forms in Chung Do Kwan are very similar
|> and maybe even identical (must be my untrained eye) to those in "Karate-Do
|> Kyohan" by Funakoshi of Shotokan.  Any connection here?

Not identical but damned similar, Yep, the Pinon forms were taken from the
Heian (sp?) forms by Choi Hong Hi (who is the head of the International Tae
Kwon Do Federation (ITF))

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Date: 10 Oct 92 05:42:11 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1b55vdINNiab@uwm.edu> byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young) writes:
>I'm not trying to say Aikido is a bad art, I like it, its just less combative
>then Aikijujutsu, in my opinion.  That's not bad at all, the world could use
>alot more harmony.

Having been personally tied into a knot by Bernie Lau-sensei, I have a 
great deal of respect for, ummmm, "instant pain" ;-). I often wonder how
*much* of the pacifism of aikido is of recent vintage. I cant help
but remember Ueshiba's description of how to apply ikkyo (ude osae):
	First, SMASH YOUR OPPONENT'S FACE...(emphasis mine).

Steve
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:56:19 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Oct8.200406.20151@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>
>>Overall Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is different then Aikido in the following ways:
>>-Techniques tie an opponent into knots with his own limbs.(hard to describe
>>on the net, but an interesting experince)

	That, it is.

>>-Hard-style breakfalls

	Daito has no soft falls at all.  When applied "properly" you do not
	roll out, you go WHUMP!

>>-Lots of Atemi (all pins end with strikes)

	Many techniques also begin with a strike (e.g. makakshi) to soften up
	the opponent by physically hurting him and disturbing the mind, i.e.,
	creating that "hair's breadth" that Takuan refers to (The Unfettered 
	Mind).

>>-Instant pain

	True, but not something to rely upon.  This is IMO, icing on the cake.

>>-Use of names instead of numbers to describe techniques
>>-Techniques that go against the joint

	Aidkido does not do these??  Hmmm...
>
>Another general thing I noticed was that the techniques tend to be smaller and
>more sharply applied.  The equivalent movements to 'Ikkyo' in Aikido, 
>for example, instead of pushing the elbow in a large circle around the 
>shoulder (as one typical variant), would cut it sharply down and toward
>the body, with the result of sudden pain and loss of balance rather than
>a smooth circular neutralization.  

	This is why so many Aikidoka (and some Jujutsuka) are technically
	weak.  The broader the circle, the bigger the doorway to escape and
	the weaker the technique even when uke does not escape.  When you
	have the same technique done to you both ways, the difference is
	immediately apparent and none too subtle.

	Of course, many Aikioka actively avoid the fiercely effective methods
	that are the true legacy of Aikido.  Whatever floats yer boat.

	-Andy V.
>
>>-Brian Young
>
>I'd be interested to see the rank requirements you were talking about if
>you wish to take the time to post them.
>
>							todd
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
>| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
>| VAX/VMS Software Support, Blue Bell, Pa.                          |
>|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Katori Shinto-ryu
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date:  7 OCT 92 08:49:30    


paananen@tuxedo.enet.dec.com (My name is...) writes...
> 
>To my meager knowledge there are no formal Katori schools outside of Japan,
>however there may be an individual or two hiding under a rock, here or there.

>- Ed P (Tether even a roasted chicken)

Meager knowledge indeed, you scoundrel.  Delighted to see you on the net,
old friend !

							roasted regards,

							todd
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273 |
| VAX/VMS Software Support, Blue Bell, Pa.                          |
|    'Reason is no substitute for Passion, nor Passion for Reason.' |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cschum@engin.umich.edu (Corey Joseph Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Tae Kwon Do and the Kwans no more?
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 09:54:01 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <92282.175632CHOI@NDSUVM1.BITNET> <CHOI@NDSUVM1.BITNET> writes:
>Mr. Dakin Burdick writes:
>
>    TKD itself is based on Shotokan Karate........
>
>First, I don't know what the Shotokan Karaete is, and maybe, there is a possi-
>billity that some forms from S.K. are incoporated in TKD, but I very doubt it,
>very much.  Would you suggest any historical facts?
>Who knows the S.K. is based on old Korean martial arts?
>Just like Judo(Yudo), as far as I know, they have historical facts that it is
>originated from Korean martial art, YuSool, art of softness, even though it
>doesn't exist anymore.  It is too bad that I don't have the facts in my hands,
>especially in North Dakota!  Maybe, you can check it with Korean martial-arts
>historians if there are such ones.
>
>Anyway, this is from what I know, heard, and read.
>I really doubt it.
>Have a nice day.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>Youngjun Choi

I don't have a lot of information on most of the above points, but
I can add this:
My TKD instructor (now president of the USTU) taught us
a form called 'Nohai' which he told us is a karate form ,
whose Japanese nse name is Rohai, I think.  So, I know of at least one 
form TKD took straight from karate (which karate style i don't know).
It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to think some of the other forms are at least 
influenced by karate.

Corey
   .
From: radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: YOU SHOULD TRY LLAP-Goch!
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:08:07 GMT
Distribution: rec.martial-arts
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article <5395@balrog.ctron.com> lawrence@olympus.ctron.com (Gary St. Lawrence) writes:
>All you sissies are wasting your time with all those Oriental martial
>arts, especially when I can teach you *LLAP-Goch: The Welsh Art of 
>Self Defense!!!*
>
>What is LLAP-Goch, you ask? It is simply the most deadly form of secret
>self-defense that has ever been devised anywhere in the world.

>You will grow up to a FOOT TALLER. You will have 35" BICEPS, and the
>women will beg to sleep with you.
>

... but what if I master LLAP-Goch, and I'm a heterosexual woman?

-Lauren
From: Simon <sb91@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: wado-ryu
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:36:02 GMT
Organization: DA : Drowner's Anonymous
X-Face: 
	 6s_8uYez>UT|Ke^YA)8\Swo8Of]x`UX]/NOs/:W$.l1llHC+<HoP'<GH>=~K+/~-0b&6?]*
	 Ex4;<F}}>wfm+j9yOX6!W{8VG<nXVm
Originator: sb91@marlowe

Sorry about this, but would you (ie Siegmann P) mail me, mail doesn't
reach you from here (uknet has rejected the idea that your site exists
in this present dimension :-)

-- 
Simon

NOTHING IS FREE

(while stocks last)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Kung Fu TV series
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 07:38:46 +0000



Frank Wong writes:
>I found this list on the net and though that other r.m-a'ers would enjoy it.
>There was an article in the March '92 issue of Black Belt about a new
>Kung Fu TV series, called Kung Fu : The Legend Continues , or something like
>that. David Carradine stars again, playing the great grandson of Kwai Chang
>Caine. The series is set in modern day times.  Shooting of the episodes
>started in June, and was by an independant production house, much like
>Star Trek The Next Generation. So it would not be dependant on the TV
>Networks for support.  Carradine was talking about syndication.
>Anyone out there know if the series got made and sold ?
>
>I haven't seen any info. out about it this fall. Maybe next year ?
>
>Frank


Good news! Although the series was really pretty naf it was what 
originally stimulated my interest in the martial arts when I was about
7 or 8 years old, I never missed it every saturday afternoon. You
could set your watch by when the action was i.e. just about 10 minutes
from the start and then five minutes before the end.


I'd be interested to know when it will be shown here in England. Anybody?


Bill Burgar.
From: connolly@sde.mdso.vf.ge.com (Connolly Sean)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: one to ten in korean
Date: 9 Oct 92 18:00:52 GMT
Reply-To: connolly@sde.mdso.vf.ge.com
Organization: GE M&DSO - VF

In article <BvpGvx.M25@apollo.hp.com>, stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave) writes:
> In article <XoF7RB2w165w@bluemoon.rn.com>, miller@bluemoon.rn.com (John
> Miller) writes:
> |> 1 = IL (ill)
> |> 2 = YI (ee as in week, no Y sound)
> |> 3 = SAM (sahm and in samba)
> |> 4 = SAH (sah as in sahm without the m)
> |> 5 = OH (long O sound)
> |> 6 = YOOK (oo as in kookie NOT cookie)
> |> 7 = CHIL (as as CH + IL from above)
> |> 8 = PAL (hard P, ahl as in all)
> |> 9 = KU (koo as in kookie)
> |> 10 = SHIP (sheep, but abrupt vowel sound)
> 
> I'm pretty sure that what you have here is first, second, third, forth, etc
> rather than one, two, three, four, etc
> 
> Joel Stave
> stave@apollo.hp.com

Perhaps.  I was taught (not sure of exact spelling):
		(pronunciation)
Hana 	1	(hun nah)
Dool 	2	(duel)
Set	3	(set)
Net	4	(net)
Tausut	5	(tah sute)
Yausut	6	(yah sute) 
Igolpe	7	(il gope)
Yaudul	8	(yah dule)
Ahap	9	(ah hop)
Yaul	10	(yowel)

But it's been a while since I've seen it written so might not look anything
like this.  But at least its close.

-Sean Connolly
GE-Aerospace
M&DSO
connolly@sde.mdso.vf.ge.com
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Katanas and other Blades
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:33:33 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Oct6.180403.7865@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>
>	"The Art of the Japanese Sword" 
	     ^^^

	AAACK!  That should read "Craft", so sorry.

	-Andy V.
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: aiki in all ma
Date: 8 Oct 1992 18:02:44 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com

In article 1b1rl5INN1ql@uwm.edu, byoung@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Brian P Young) writes:
>As far as aikijujutsu if anybody has any interest, I have a pretty long
>history of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu/aikido I'll post.  It includes a family
>tree from Takeda Sogaku, who taught not only Uyeshiba but also Cho Yong Sul
>founder of Hapkido, to present.

"Samuarai Aikijutsu" has a pretty good history, with charts & everything.

What I'm interested in is if anyone has a syllabus of Daito Ryu
Aikijutsu. That would certainly be interesting. 

It could be posted like:

Katate Tori - Single Hand Hold
Imon Tori - Chest Hold (from a push)
Momiji Hazushi - Front neck choke escape 

etc.

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: Re: Kimewaza - "Fact or fiction"
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:47:21 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Oct7.152439.5766@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>
>
>So far, the art is the root form of all other martial arts, it was started in 
>India in 400 B.C. went through China by way of monks, took on a Japanese name 
>and now is found as far as you know only in Iceland, Sweden, Paris,
>and somewhere in Eastern-Europe, still being taught as it was originally
>except that only the defensive applications are retained.  It is also known as 
This is a common mistake in regarding the invention of martial arts.
You are talking about Shaolin martial arts of which is transferred
from the Indian monk.
But a long time before that, in the Chou dynasty, approx around
800BC, in the time of spring and autumn, there is offical history
of martial arts in China.  One famous one is a female sword person
in the Yue-country.
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Radio Communications in the DOJO
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:05:18 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

>In article <1992Oct9.162643.23455@wdl.loral.com> tmr@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Tim Ryan) writes:
>
>   Does anybody elses, studio have radio communications in there Dojos?
>

Hmmm...maybe they can start correcting technique with those electric dog collars
like the one Dan Quayl(e) uses to keep his pooch away from his putting
green. You know:

one jolt	Bend your knees more
two jolts	Make a tighter fist
	...
100 jolts	Your dues are late

etc, etc...

Steve
From: farant@terapin.com (Faran Thomason)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: ma movies and books
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:58:15 PST
Organization: BBS

In terms of Martial Arts movies I really don't think your VanDammes, Seagals
and Speakmans can hold candle to the stars from Hong Kong. Check Out the films
of Jackie Chan, Samo Hung and Yuen Biao. The films these guys make run rings
around the American stars. Don't bother with the dubbed stuff just try to track
down the ones from Hong Kong they are usually subtitled in English. All three
of these guys are in tons of films ranging from the supernatural to comedy so
you are bound to find a film that you like. Once you see a Hong Kong MA flick
you will realize what a joke most American action/MA films are.
From: am68@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Ali Ackbar Ben Shamir)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: *** Advice sought on Wing Chun ***
Date: 14 Oct 92 09:55:42 GMT
Organization: University of Brighton, UK


Wing chun is the perfect style to learn whatever your age size strength
or limitations.
The art itself was developed in china around 400 years ago and has until
recently had a fairly secret history having been handed down through a
small group of practitioners. Until the advent of Yip Man and Bruce Lee
who single handedly made it into one of the most popular and fast growing
martial arts of the day.
The style itself is a curious combination of taoist philosophical principles
and hard headed physiological facts. For instance it does not try to fight
force with force and (ought to )practice the idea of avoiding confrontation
at all costs, but on the other hand it enable the user to exert extreme force
over a very short range through the practice of developing chi power (or
whatever one wishes to call it!)
The style is short range with most of the concentration being centered on the
hands. So bad eyesight ought not to affect anybodies performance! in fact
Bruce lee complained of short sightedness but was still very skillful.
The main practice method is called Chi sau which involves two opponents
simultaneously blocking their opponents attacks and attacking at the same
time. This may seem like a recipe for getting hurt but in the long run it
allows you to do different blocks and attacks with either arm without even
having time to think about what you are doing. In that sense it is an
instinctive way of learning to fight and depends a lot on your mental
attitude:- it is easy to learn if you are encouraged to think about what you
are doing but not otherwise....it is thus an informal and untraditional
style and is ideal to the typical westerner.
I would recomend that even if you don't decide to learn Wing Chun you do it
as a second style. Its great!!!!
ANDY
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aiki in Osotogari
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:51:37 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <11058@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> poore@ds13.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) writes:
>and use internal energy with only one foot on the ground.

I've seen my hsing yi teacher hold off someone pushing him while he had only
one foot on the ground.  It sure didn't look like the pusher had any sort of
advantage.

Just my two cents'....

Al
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: Nice combos with cat claws (or other combos)
Organization: just me
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 12:49:20 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts

In article <Bw0MH2.F7F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.142018.20551@srg.srg.af.mil> dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
>>In article <BvzJu6.IKr@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>>>
>>>Are there any good books that explain and depict good combinations using cat
>>>claws or sai?  I'd really appreciate it.  My cat claws are coming in the mail
>>>in a couple weeks, and I've already made up a few of my own combos which I
>>>think are excellent to use against non-MA's.
>>
>>Hmmm....Perhaps you can tell us how you developed the method which allows
>>you to tell whether your opponent is MA trained?  I think that would be
>
>Chances are, a loud, obnoxious, aggressive redneck wearing a John-Deere hat
>isn't going to know martial arts.

Chances are a loud, obnoxious, aggressive biker won't know martial arts either.
Does that mean that he knows nothing about fighting?  Nooo...

My point was, knowing whether someone is trained or not may be valuable, but
I assumed that practical experience is also training.  It comes down to whether
or not you can tell if the guy has any *ability*.  Your redneck falls dead
square in the center of my "Do Not Touch" zone, whether or not he is a 15th
degree black belt, simply because most people who fall into that category in
my area are a), drunk; b), capable of taking more than a few hits; c) more thabncapable of picking me up and throwing me at any convenient protrusion; and d)
blessed with a multitude of friends.  The optional e), knows Gun-Fu, is also
a consideration.

Using cat claws on an aware person with friends or a gun - or just the ability
to write down your license number - is not wise.  Using them on some jerk who
couldn't touch your skill level is morally bankrupt.  So the most important
ability is telling them apart.  At least then in case a, you won't get hurt, 
and in b, you avoid unnecessarily hurting someone else.  So I think my point
stands: rather than practice the cat claw moves as a primary response, learn
to detect and analyze situations to determine the proper response.

The paragraph above sort of leads to the conclusion that it is not safe to
get into fights with belligerent strangers, unless you can confidently say
you'll beat them, in which case you don't need to fight.  I think this is a
good starting point - of course, if there is no way out, the same evaluation
will get you an idea of how serious the attack will be.  Much more useful
than the claws.  Probably more difficult.

Sounds so serious :-).  I hope I'm not missing the point, but then you'll
correct me if I am, no? :-)

Hapkido really does need a partner to practice with, btw.  Otherwise, you
won't know what the throws and locks feel like on a real person.

David Pipes
robear@digex.com

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen)
Subject: Re: (what should I carry ?)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 15:37:15 GMT
Organization: hah!  we don't need no steenkin' organization!
Summary: 	-=-=-< bwahhhhahahahahahaaaawwwhhh! >-=-=-
Followup-To: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu
Distribution: usa
Keywords: 	-=-=-< humor, but take a couple of history courses! >-=-=-
Cc: CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu


In article <1992Oct12.171310.28145@morrow.stanford.edu> CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates) writes:

>Thoric writes:
><snip>
>>Now try to consider a societal attitude in which the Martial Arts

	< snip snip >

>>for killing"  "Tai Chi ?  oh yeah, that's the gentleman's MA..  but
>>get a permit first :-)"  I know such a scenario is hard to imagine)...
><snip>
>
>This happened in Japan immidiately following WWII. Martial arts were
>banned by the US occupational forces. Then specific MAs were
>'allowed' to be practiced one by one. I have spoken to several
>Japanese (who aren't Martial Artists) who feel that the MAs were
>the cause of the Japanese agression in WWII......

	bBBBWWWWWwwwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaawwwwh!!
	......
	bBBBWWWWWwwwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaawwwwh!!

	have you considered taking a history course or two?  have
you considered a career in stand-up comedy?  (do the first!  forget the 
second.....*{touch bin/smiles/#4}* (R) (<- for that thief pipes!))

>
>Fer
>

	another opinion, worth what you paid for it!
	and, as always, i am/at:

	     doug:  <doug@eng.umd.edu> : <doug@lpf.umd.edu>

	-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-< a ghost in the machine >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

	"presidential elections are planned distractions
	 to divert attention from the actions behind the scenes....
	 like a game of chess when the house is a mess, or
	 a petty money squabble when your marriage is in trouble,
	 or a football game when there's rioting in the street!

	 it's just another movie.....  another song and dance.....
	 another poor sucker who never had a chance!
	 it's just another captain goin' down with his ship.....
	 it's just another jerk, taking pride in his work!

				       greetings from timbuck three!