From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Calvinism and Hell (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:37:25 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

While I am not specifically refuting Publius' form of Calvinism, I must
strongly disagree with Publius' statement that eternal hell in is the
antithesis of the Calvinistic thought, and is mutually exclusive to Calvinism:

> The term "hell", in its Calvinistic sense, simply means the state
> of separation from God.  And in this sense, everyone who is not
> living in God's will is in "hell".  As I have shown in the past,
> in this newsgroup, that this interpretation of "hell" is crucial
> to Calvin's entire theological system.  Take away this interpretation
> of "hell" and replace it with the literal "hell fire", as preferred by
> some, and you would crush Calvin's entire theological system.

Calvin and most of the most articulate defenders of Calvinism (eg: Jonathan
Edwards) disagree with Publius.  Calvinism is quite compatible with eternal
damnation, and Calvin himself viewed the damned as undergoing eternal
punishment.  In fact Calvin sets aside the conclusion of his third book of
"Institutes" for the discussion of the eternal torture of the damned:

    Moreover, as language cannot describe the severity of the divine
    vengeance on the reprobate, their pains and torments are figured to us by
    corporeal things, such as darkness, wailing and gnashing of teeth,
    unextinguishable fire, the ever-gnawing worm.  It is certain that by such
    modes of expression the Holy Spirit designed to impress all our senses with
    dread, as when it is said, "Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it
    is prepared: he hath made it deep and large; the pile thereof is fire and
    much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle
    it".  As we thus require to be assisted to conceive the miserable doom of 
    the reprobate, so the consideration on which we ought chiefly to dwell is 
    the fearful consequence of being estranged from all fellowship with God, 
    and not only so, but of feeling that his majesty is adverse to us, while 
    we cannot possibly escape it.  For first his indignation is like a raging 
    fire, by whose touch all things are devoured and annihilated.  Next, all 
    the creatures are the instruments of his judgement, so that those to whom 
    the Lord will thus publicly manifest his anger will feel that heaven and 
    earth and sea, all beings animate and inanimate, are, as it were, inflamed 
    with dire indignation against them, and armed for their destruction.  
    Wherefore the Apostle made no trivial declaration, when he said that 
    unbelievers shall be "punished with everlasting destruction from the 
    presense of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".  And whenever the
    prophets strike terror by means of corporeal figures, although in respect
    of our dull understanding there is no extravagance in their language, yet 
    they give preludes of the future judgment in the sun and the moon and the 
    whole fabric of the world.  Hence unhappy consciences find no rest, but are
    vexed and driven about by a dire whirlwind, feeling as if torn by an angry
    God, pierced through with deadly darts, terrified by his thunderbolt, and 
    crushed by the weight of his hand; so that it were easier to plunge into 
    abysses and whirlpools than endure these terrors for a moment.  How 
    fearful, then, must it be to be thus beset throughout eternity! ^^^
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thus I conclude that Calvin himself did not view Calvinism as being "crushed"
by eternal damnation.  So, while I would agree with Publius that Calvin saw the
interpretation of "hell" as being crucial, I would not agree that Publius'
interpretation of hell matches Calvin's.  Further, I think it likely that
Calvin would have labeled Publius' a heretic for expressing public
disagreement on the subject (Calvin was not tolerant of heterodoxy or
disagreement). 
  
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    The sight of hell's torments will exalt the happiness of the saints 
    forever.
				Jonathan Edwards
				Calvinist apologist

   "The goodness as well as the happiness of the blessed will be confirmed and
    advanced by reflections naturally arising from this view of the misery 
    which some shall undergo, which seems to be a good reason for the
    creation of those being who shall be finally miserable, and for the 
    continuation of them in their miserable existence."
				The Calvinist William King
				"De Origine Mali" 

   "God shall not pity them, but laugh at their calamity, The righteous
    company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, 
    and shall sing while the smoke rises up forever."
				Sermon from
				Scot Calvinist Preacher 
				Thomas Boston. 

    ... when does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so 
    many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death 
    unless because it so pleased God?
				Calvin
				Institutes