HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mysti@sierra.sybase.com (Mysti Rubert)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Competing Defense Agencies
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:14:27 GMT

In article <1gbg02INN84n@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cb926@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Edmund Joseph Ryan) writes:
|>  Mr. Henley's examples were the situations
|> ("disastrous") in Somalia and Lebanon. .
|> 
|> The problem with these arguments is that it assumes that only a
|> defense agency that is publically owned--such as the U.S. army--
|> is the only one capable of protecting property rights and will
|> more than half of the time act in the interests of society.

It's not that they'll protect our property rights, it's that we can
hold them accountable (in often limited fashion, admittedly) if they
don't.  Soldiers and police men do what they are told, and what they
can get away with, they never "protect rights".

|> The best way to rectify this situation is to embrace the idea
|> of competition. 

I live in a neighborhood where private armies are competing fiercly.
Many of the people in this area sleep in bathtubs at night for protection
from flying bullets, because the competition is so keen.

|> 
|> The situations in Somalia and Lebanon are far from   
|> undesirable, 

I hope you mean far from desirable...
 
|> 
|> I suggest that the U.S. government and other governments
|> allow for the creation of private profit-making armies.
|> Ideally, an army of this type will look at the situation
|> in Somalia, and most likely find a profit making venture.  

There are private armies down their now, and they have found
the only profit making venture--stealing aid packages.  How would
your private army be any different?
 
|> 
|> If there is no profitable ventures in protecting Somalian
|> citizens, then there must be one in bringing Somalians
|> out of Somalia. In Somalia, there are profit making 
|> ventures to be made. The tragedy is ignoring this while
|> the opportunity is at hand. 

The tragedy is valuing profit over the alieviation of human 
suffering.  Absolute capitalism corrupts absolutely, as they (might
as well have) said...
-- 
========================
Mysti Rubert, Oaktown, California

"It's not the men in my life, but the life in my men."  Mae West
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: N-C abortion
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 11 Dec 92 16:50:50 EST
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

rbeckham@bnr.ca (Rick Beckham) writes:
>
>   For the sake of argument, let's examine a hypothetical situation.
>   Suppose that at some future point some scientist (or group of
>   scientists) comes to the realization that 20 years down the road
>   there will only be enough food to feed the standing population.
>   This is considering that all available farmland will be used.
>   Now if all alternatives were examined and rejected, let's suppose
>   the conclusion is reached that either a.) all unborn babies will
>   be terminated, or b.) a segment of the population over 60 will be
>   put to sleep. Now, if the unborns are terminated there exists
>   little hope for any future generation, mankind may die out.

that's it. ignore the point and bring in another false analogy. whee!

ok, i'm game. suppose that did happen. (it's just another variation 
on the relativist "Lifeboat" game, but what the hell.) first off,
there are alternatives to killing people off. there usually are. i 
kinda wonder why the hell the people in your example aren't using 
their tremendous manpower to get into space, but it's your game, i'll
play along. secondly, even if such extreme measures are necessary in
times of -serious- problems, that should not be a reflection on the
worth of certain individuals the rest of the time. and be wary of
people who claim "These are terrible times! We have to kill ____
group to make things better!" they're rarely justified by history.

a guy who thinks Logan's Run was a bad enough TV show, we don't need
to turn it into real life,
jason

--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,`  "I'd explain it to you, but your head would blow up." - S. Wright  `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden)
Subject: Re: Views? :
Organization: University of North Carolina
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 13:41:48 GMT

In article <a0R=Lv_@engin.umich.edu> positron@engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.022756.3194@samba.oit.unc.edu> bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:
>>
>[why gold-backed currency?]
>>
>>	Well on that you and I agree completly.  I think the gold standard
>>is really not worth much.  It was useful in ancient times, because gold
>>was relativly rare and highly prized.  In modern times, who really needs
>>gold for anything.  The best thing we could do is sell of all that
>>worthless garbage in Fort Knox.
>>	Givin all this though can you think of a good commidity for the
>>modern world?
>>
>
>Look at the free market, pal, look at the free market. It doesn't really
>matter what gold is *used* for, what matters is that there is a demand
>for it, and that there is a supply of it. The most useless thing in the
>world has value if people want it and people can supply it. Gold is a
>good store of value because it's durable, doesn't rot, decay, or dissolve,
>and is relatively rare. If you can come up with something else on which
>to base currency, sounds good to me. As long as it's *something* concrete.
>I want a guarantee from the government along the lines of, "We're giving
>you these green pieces of paper to use as currency, and we assure you that
>you can always exchange five hundred of them for an ounce of gold" or
>something like that. Without any backing, the government can just print
>more currency, causing inflation.
>

	I think your discription of gold is slightly off.  The demand for
gold is relativly small.  The supply is huge, the major holders of gold
and the major suppliers, are the people who maintain the high price by
chocking off supply.  The natural supply of is very big.  As for golds
physical properties that's true. What I would tend to think might be a
good medium for exchange that does have an intrinsic value is oil.
	Sort of like in early America where we used tabacco.



Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Why not feudalism?
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 06:00:39 GMT

In article <77890@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
}In <1992Dec18.111459.18901@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}
}>In article <77760@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
}|}Low marginal productivity may have been inherited from feudalism, but it
}|}wasn't caused by feudalism.  It was caused by a lack of technology.
}|}
}|}For example, a man with a mule will never be able to haul as much as a man
}|}with a tractor.
}
}|Then why did the standard of living decrease when Rome fell?
}
}Two reasons.  Loss of technology and loss of trade.  Technology requires
}urban centers to develop and maintain it.  Trade allows each area to
}specialize, loss of trade requires each area to make do with only what it
}can produce itself.

And what effect does specialization have on the marginal productivity of
labor?  It increases it.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden)
Subject: Re: Gold v. Oil: Backed Currency
Organization: University of North Carolina
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 03:24:31 GMT

In article <BzH7wF.C7F@encore.com> rcollins@encore.com writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.215336.4430@samba.oit.unc.edu>, bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:
>|> >circulation should not change (in theory).  A better analogy to what the
>|> >Fed does would be to have the board of directors print up extra stock and keep 
>|> >it for themselves.
>|> >
>|> >Mr. Grinch
>|> 
>|> 	They can do this too.  that's what happens in a typical stock split.
>|> 
>|> --JMB
>|> 
>
>Bzzzt -- thanks for playing.  In a typical stock split, the owners of
>record get the new shares, not the board of directors.
>
>A slightly better analogy to what the fed does is: the board of
>directors prints extra stock and lends it to their friends with
>very favorable rates -- the federal reserve lends it to the banks.

	Oh but at the last minute the judges over rule Bob Barker's call
remembering that the board of directors is composed of the major
shareholders, and thus Bob was just knit picking.  Your right about the
lending vs. keeping, but were gettin way off track.

--JMB
Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Jobless
Keywords: mimimum wage
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:00:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.161657@gracie.IntelliCorp.COM> treitel@gracie.IntelliCorp.COM (Richard Treitel) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.222532.11415@cheshire.oxy.edu>, leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:
>|> Excuse me, Mark, but how many manufacturing jobs exist at less than $6 an
>|> hour that are legal?  Our economy isn't depressed to that point...
>|> furthermore, a $1.75 an hour increase won't prompt any more moves
>
>I'd expect the illegal jobs to pay more, not less {:-)
>
>There'd be a knock-on effect.  Someone who now makes $6.25 would not be
>content to make fractionally over the minimum while doing a definitely
>non-minimal job.  Result: rapid inflation, which leads to unemployment.
>
>Also, a job that can be done by *either* two minimal workers or one worker
>and a machine that costs $5 an hour would change to the latter alternative.
>I expect there are many jobs where, by upgrading the machinery a bit, you
>can reduce the number of workers needed, but it isn't *quite* worth doing
>so at present wage levels.
>
>In general, though, if you seriously think that by raising the price of
>anything you can cause the supply of it to shrink, you are unlikely to
>believe anything I say.
>				- Richard

Knock on effect is arguable... there are many people doing minimal jobs
at $6.00 an hour and non-minimal at $7.50 right now... your some skills
jobs generally command $7-11 an hour... in 99% of employment cases, the
$4.25 a hour min wage is irrelevant... I'd bet that if we dropped it
to $3.25 an hour for six months training, and raised it to $6, there'd
be no practical effect.

I think you're arguing for a more productive economy... long term,
it'd probably be in the best interests of everyone for those machines
to come on line... create more jobs by inducing capital spending on
machinery, free up more labor for other purposes...

As for the last paragraph, you confuse the issue... by raising the
price, you reduce the supply of jobs provided... and, undeniably,
increase the supply of labor by inducing others to enter the market...
however, the conditions outlined mean the excess labor will fail to
become employed, and have an incentive to increase its marketability.

Thom
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Jobless
Date: 19 Dec 1992 23:52:09 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: skorpio.usask.ca

In article <1992Dec10.121216.7831@stiatl.salestech.com>, ges@stiatl.salestech.com (Gerald Sullivan) writes:
|> Anybody heard the saying: "If you lined up all economists end to end they
|> would point all directions."?

This means economists are running in circles or conic sections.

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Jobless
Keywords: mimimum wage
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 13:17:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.110021.2367@cheshire.oxy.edu> leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt) writes:
}I think you're arguing for a more productive economy... long term,
}it'd probably be in the best interests of everyone for those machines
}to come on line... create more jobs by inducing capital spending on
}machinery, free up more labor for other purposes...

Only after the capital has been employed elsewhere, and the human capital
of the laborers has risen.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics
From: ges@stiatl.salestech.com (Gerald Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Jobless
Organization: Sales Technologies, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 12:12:16 GMT

rlglende@netcom.com (Robert Lewis Glendenning) writes:

> (deleted)

>Just because someone is correct doesn't mean they have a theory which
>is valid, or even marginally useful.  Most of the theories in economics
>are not generally accepted.  None allow making predictions sufficient
>to govern actions, at least not actions beyond "Physician, first do no Harm".
> (deleted)

>Lew

Yes, I have been thinking about starting a business publishing investment
newsletters predicting future developments in the economyi :-). I would 
need a few hunderd "forcasters" that would predict economic performance
for the next year. Half of them would predict an upturn, half a downturn
in the economy. After a few years, I would have some forcasters that were
perfect. I could advertise the fact and become rich as people flock to hear
the advice of such a wise forcaster.

Anybody heard the saying: "If you lined up all economists end to end they
would point all directions."?

-- 
___________________________________________________________________
Jerry Sullivan, Sales Technologies, Inc.  Atlanta,GA 
ges@salestech.com,...uupsi!stiatl!ges I don't speak for my employer.
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics
Subject: Most things done by the government are expensive.
Date: 17 Dec 1992 18:20:00 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: skorpio.usask.ca

People in the government do not pay enough attention to the details.
There is far too much information to permit good decisions and to permit
enough decisions. For instance, even the local computer management keep
some beastly old Sun 3/50 monitors running 24 hrs a day even though no one
uses them. There's heaps of junky old mag tape lying around. It's too
hard to administer things.

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:88 alt.politics.usa.misc:649 alt.activism:19548
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: CLINTON: Season's Greetings & Best Wishes for a Happy New Year
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 03:15:40 GMT

In article <1h0kfdINNkcp@life.ai.mit.edu> Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92) writes:
:   The U. S. Mail address for the Clinton/Gore Transition Team is:

Transition Team?  Jeez, you guys *still* not in?  You really ought to think
about changing that system you know.  In Britain, the removal truck is round
at no. 10 the next morning...

meanwhile, no one is taking you seriously on the international stage and
the excumbents are shredding all the dirt...

G
Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:84 alt.politics.usa.misc:643 alt.activism:19515
From: Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism
Subject: CLINTON: Statement on the NAFTA Agreement
Date: 17 Dec 1992 20:57:35 -0500
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: life.ai.mit.edu


Posted by: The Office of teh President-Elect
date:      December 17, 1992

SUBJECT: Statement on Nafta

     Statement by President-elect Clinton on the Signing of NAFTA

  Today, the leaders of the United States, Canada and Mexico take
an important step toward the economic integration of North America.

  In signing the North American Free Trade Agreement President
Bush, President Salinas and Prime Minister Mulroney bring our nations
closer to the goal of free trade and economic prosperity.

  I want to reaffirm my support for this agreement and underscore
my commitment to work with the American people and our neighbors to
the north and south to ensure NAFTA is properly implemented.  The goal
of free trade is one I support but NAFTA is only one piece of the
strategy necessary to ensure that we move wisely toward an integrated
region.

  If implemented as part of a comprehensive economic growth strategy,
NAFTA will create the largest market in the world, spur more American
jobs and promote growth in Mexico and Canada.  Our economy will benefit
from eliminating Mexico's higher tariffs, from reducing barriers to
trade in services and by better protecting intellectual property rights.

  A successful NAFTA, however, must be coupled with a plan to protect
our environment and to prepare our entire workforce to compete in the
global economy.  During the campaign, I laid out in detail the three
supplemental agreements we must have before proceeding with the 
implementing legislation, involving the environment, workers and
special safeguards for unexpected surges in imports.  I also indicated
five areas the United States can address unilaterally as we move to
implement NAFTA. These areas include worker assistance, the environment, farmers, greater public participation
and closing loopholes for foreign workers.  I believe these steps do
not require renegotiation of NAFTA.

  I intend to work closely with the governments of Mexico and
Canada as well as with the leadership in Congress to ensure these
important goals are met.  I believe they are achievable and essential
to advancing our common goal of prosperity for all the people of our 
nations.  I look forward to early meetings with President Salinas and 
with Prime Minister Mulroney to move this process forward.
 
			-30-30-30



Distribution:
  Clinton Foreign >internet:c-foreign-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton News >internet:c-news-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton Economy >internet:clinton-economy-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton Volunteers >internet:clinton-volunteers@campaign92.org

Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:91 alt.politics.usa.misc:658 alt.activism:19674
From: Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism
Subject: CLINTON: Statement on the NAFTA Agreement
Date: 17 Dec 1992 20:28:10 -0500
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: life.ai.mit.edu


Posted by: The Office of teh President-Elect
date:      December 17, 1992

SUBJECT: Statement on Nafta

     Statement by President-elect Clinton on the Signing of NAFTA

  Today, the leaders of the United States, Canada and Mexico take
an important step toward the economic integration of North America.

  In signing the North American Free Trade Agreement President
Bush, President Salinas and Prime Minister Mulroney bring our nations
closer to the goal of free trade and economic prosperity.

  I want to reaffirm my support for this agreement and underscore
my commitment to work with the American people and our neighbors to
the north and south to ensure NAFTA is properly implemented.  The goal
of free trade is one I support but NAFTA is only one piece of the
strategy necessary to ensure that we move wisely toward an integrated
region.

  If implemented as part of a comprehensive economic growth strategy,
NAFTA will create the largest market in the world, spur more American
jobs and promote growth in Mexico and Canada.  Our economy will benefit
from eliminating Mexico's higher tariffs, from reducing barriers to
trade in services and by better protecting intellectual property rights.

  A successful NAFTA, however, must be coupled with a plan to protect
our environment and to prepare our entire workforce to compete in the
global economy.  During the campaign, I laid out in detail the three
supplemental agreements we must have before proceeding with the 
implementing legislation, involving the environment, workers and
special safeguards for unexpected surges in imports.  I also indicated
five areas the United States can address unilaterally as we move to
implement NAFTA. These areas include worker assistance, the environment, farmers, greater public participation
and closing loopholes for foreign workers.  I believe these steps do
not require renegotiation of NAFTA.

  I intend to work closely with the governments of Mexico and
Canada as well as with the leadership in Congress to ensure these
important goals are met.  I believe they are achievable and essential
to advancing our common goal of prosperity for all the people of our 
nations.  I look forward to early meetings with President Salinas and 
with Prime Minister Mulroney to move this process forward.
 
			-30-30-30



Distribution:
  Clinton Foreign >internet:c-foreign-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton News >internet:c-news-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton Economy >internet:clinton-economy-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton Volunteers >internet:clinton-volunteers@campaign92.org

Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:89 alt.politics.usa.misc:650 alt.activism:19549
From: Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism
Subject: CLINTON: Gifts press release
Date: 12 Dec 1992 14:29:41 -0500
Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation,
    675 Mass. Ave., Cambridge, MA  02139, USA +1 (617) 876-3296
NNTP-Posting-Host: life.ai.mit.edu


 SUBJECT: Gifts press release
 Posted by: The Office of the President-Elect
 Date: December 12, 1992

      Many friends and supporters have contacted the Clintons asking
 about the appropriateness of sending Christmas gifts to them this
 holiday season.  The Clintons greatly appreciate this expression of
 caring for their family but ask that those who wish to remember them
 this holiday season make gifts to local charities of their choice to
 make Christmas a little brighter for those in need.  The Clintons
 plan to donate gifts they receive to charities and individuals in
 Arkansas.

                               -30-



Distribution:
  Clinton News >internet:c-news-distr@campaign92.org
  Clinton Volunteers >internet:clinton-volunteers@campaign92.org

Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:96 alt.politics.usa.misc:674 alt.activism:19725
From: Clinton-HQ@Campaign92.Org (Clinton/Gore '92)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism
Subject: CLINTON: Season's Greetings and Best Wishes for a Happy New Year!
Date: 20 Dec 1992 11:07:16 -0500
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: life.ai.mit.edu



Season's Greetings and Best Wishes for a Happy New Year!

Thank you for your messages to the Office of the President-elect.
This mailbox will be unattended from December 22, 1992 until January 4th,
1993.  Please try again after January 4th.  If you prefer, you may send
hardcopy messages to the address below:

   The U. S. Mail address for the Clinton/Gore Transition Team is:

	Office of the President-Elect
	Atkins Building
	105 West Capital Street,  Suite 400
	Little Rock,  Arkansas   72201

	Telephone: (501) 374-3322


Regards,
Jock Gill
Public Access Email
Office of the President-Elect
75300.3115@compuserve.com



Xref: sparky alt.politics.reform:94 alt.politics.usa.misc:669 alt.activism:19717