From: tilley@leadsb1.UUCP (Thomas Tilley)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Greetings, intolerant fascists
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:28:42 GMT
Reply-To: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: LOCKHEED, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1992Apr1.154901.24574@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.uucp (27331-bunz) writes:
>In article <MEC.92Mar27135820@cantor.math.ufl.edu>, mec@math.ufl.edu (Michael Cerrato) writes:
>>> [ Attribution lost during the thread - sorry: I didn't lose it. ]
>>>    What about political protest?  I bet a scout would be evicted for using his
>>>    freedom of expression to the point of burning a flag.
>> 
>> Regardless of what BSA would do to someone, flag burning is about the
>> stupidest way to protest in the United States that I can think of.
>> Sure, freedom of expression guarentees us the right to do it, but
>> burning the flag is disrespectful to all those who fought and died to
>> guarentee us that right.
>Not True!
>
> [ Flag retiring ceremony description deleted. ]
>
>However, I do agree with your comments relating flag burning to protests.
>The protesters SHOULD at least be smart enough to realize that the message
>they want to send is that the country is in trouble or distress, and the
>proper way to signify that is to fly the flag UPSIDE DOWN.

    - The issue is flag burning as protest, and whether the BSA should be
      able to evict someone for it: flag retiring ceremonies are not
      relevent to this issue.

    - Flying a flag upside down does not indicate that the country is
      in trouble: it indicates that you are in trouble (or at least that
      your ship is in trouble).

    - Saying that someone "should at least be smart enough to realize
      that the message they want to send is ..." is, at best, presumptuous.
      Given that it is common knowledge that flag burning (when carried
      out as protest) is considered disrespectful to the country
      represented by the flag, we should assume that the message the
      protesters want to send is one of disrespect to that country.  The
      protester is probably saying that a core value, more important than
      the country itself, is being ignored or degraded by that country:
      thus, in this view, the country has lost all claim on his respect.
      If this is his message, flag burning as protest is not stupid: it
      correctly represents what he is saying.

    - One can simultaneously accept that 1) a protester may reasonably
      burn a flag in protest and 2) that the BSA can evict any member
      for doing so if one recognizes the following: It is a core value
      of the BSA that duty to country is only exceeded by duty to God,
      and that, within some bounds, the country is entitled to respect
      even if it is wrong.  Without addressing how far the "my country
      right or wrong" view goes, or its reasonableness, membership in
      the BSA should not be viewed as a right.  If the BSA were to evict
      our hypothetical protester, the protester's right to speech would
      not be violated: he could still protest.  If the BSA were to be
      barred from evicting the protester, its rights would be violated.
      If the BSA has a set of core values that a member cannot live with,
      or that a member originally found OK and later found he could not
      live with, then that member should, for the sake of honesty,
      evaluate his own membership without being prompted by dismissal
      from the BSA.

Tom.

#--------------------------------------------------#
| Tom Tilley                                       |
| Internet : tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com   |
Newsgroups: rec.scouting