HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgl7@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Andrew T. Kim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Sleazy Countries (was Re: The Six-Year National...)
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:38:10 GMT
Reply-To: jgl7@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Andrew T. Kim)
Distribution: na
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1992Apr8.225426.1071@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.190605.15000@dlb.com>, steven@dlb.com (Steven Tsowen Chiang) writes:
>
><>What "friends around the world" does the so-called "ROC" have?  Good ole
><>South Africa and south Korea--that's about all.  And I certainly wouldn't want
><>to call those sleazes my only friends.
><
><Certainly they are not sleazy.
>
>South Africa isn't sleazy?!?!  South Korea isn't sleazy?!?!  I guess an
>"ROC"-backer would think so.
>
>					--Scott
>

Mr. Horne, could you elaborate on that please?  

As a Korean, I found your remark extremely interesting.  As one of the
countries who is a beginner in modern democracy, we do have our problems,
but not because of lack of effort.  Our government and politicians are
certainly sleazy, about as sleazy as any other government.  Unless you have
a way to determine the "degree of sleaziness" of the politicians (for what
it is worth), I find your remark unjustifiable.  I do not know of any
government having decided to have relationship with other government based
on its counterpart's sleaziness/goodness.  If you think otherwise, please
forward your follow-up to soc.culture.korean, since that's where it belongs
and I am sure there are lots of people who will *love* to discuss it with
you.  

I will not post this on s.c.k just to start the worthless flame war.
Please do reply only if you have an apology or any other *productive*
opinions.  Otherwise, it doesn't really belong anywhere.

I don't normally read s.c.c because I don't really know what is going on in
China, nor I understand any Chinese frequently used in many articles.  The
sheer amount of article also drove me away, although I recently found out
the flame war between Scott Horne and A Lot of Others (tm) consists roughly
half of the traffic.  He also has his share of traffic in s.c.k., although
I haven't followed his recent ones because he became a charter member of my
KILL file there.  

I do respect his knowledge and his stamina(!), but I find it hard to
believe that a man of his knowledge and intelligence cannot write a well
composed article and lack the patience and sensitivity not to provoke the
mindless flame wars.  I have egos too, but I would think again about what I
did, if so many people went nuts because of me.  Wouldn't you?

My apology is to s.c.c. netters who feel this article is out of place.

Andy Kim
jgl7@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee)
Subject: Guys, that's it for me! (Was Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...))
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 04:49:25 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.094220.2941@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.015753.21771@leland.Stanford.EDU>, infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:
>> 
>> 	There are tons of facts in the Pravda, too. And in the People's Daily.
>> And in the National Enquirer.
>> 	Of course the KMT Central Daily supports whatever the KMT wants it to
>> say.
>
>
>	** The original post requests some facts and evidences.
>	   I said the Central Daily has tons of them.
>	   It has nothing to do with other newspapers.
>	   

	I thought my point was extremely clear-- just as you won't believe the 
Pravda too much... and I don't think you should... you shouldn't believe the
Central Daily either; of course they would support whatever KMT wants them to
say, just as the Pravda would say that the Communists are really great. My
point was, their "tons of facts and evidences" are not credible.

	Man... I didn't even think I would have to clearify my point. Please
don't avoid my arguments. Gee, discussions on this net don't seem to get any-
where when all these people just cover their ears, say what they want to say,
and not responding to your opinions at all. Everybody seems to still believe
in whatever opinion they came in with. That's it... guess I'm gonna "u" this
group for now. It has been, uh, interesting to have the "intellectual discu-
ssion" with you guys. *NOT.* Flame one another to death! Hard!

	Don't even think about personalized e-mail flames. If it's not good
enough to be posted, it's not good enough for me. Although since I'm quitting,
you can do whatever you want on the post behind my back now. *grin*

	Au revoir-- Messieurs.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: scc53091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (TAIWAN!!! 5/18/92 )
Subject: >>>>The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, R.O.C.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 05:48:29 GMT

*Raises his hand to Scott's question*
I think so...well, put it this way...face the reality or stay with the thought
that says "Hmmm...they (ROC gov't) have done a pretty good job telling the 
whole world about its great achievements...even an 18 year-old like me knows
it...hmmm......"  Are you still living in the 50s??!  Huh?

Steve Chen
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: hung@ee.tamu.edu (Tzu-Chien Hung)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:28:03 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University

In article <92105.114406U53298@uicvm.uic.edu* U53298@uicvm.uic.edu (Sandy Yeh) writes:
*In my opinion, Taipei First Girl's High is *THE* best high school in Taiwan.
*I don't think we should be humble in this matter. :-)

What do you mean by best? By the percentage of the students pass 
the college entrance exam? If this is the case, it is unfare to the 
other high school, especially boy's high.
We all know that most of the boys go for engineering and
college of engineering is hard to get in.
Some of my friends felt they cannot get in a engineering 
departments in some good univ. then transfer to group of social 
(group b or d) in the last year of their high school.
With one year preparation, they went in some public univ.
I bet if all the TFGH students go for college of engineering,
their percentage of the students go to univ. will go down
ignifacantly.
From: hsiang@sbhsiang.cs.sunysb.edu (J. Hsiang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Date: 17 Apr 92 20:17:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: sbcs.1992Apr17.201703.3440
Distribution: na
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook

In article <1992Apr17.141320.2975@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu writes:
>
>	   If I think Iko is a female, some of my followups toward
>	   "her" would be quite different (ooops, how phony I am).

Some people may find male chauvinism amusing, I find it rather an
indication of poor taste.

Although you may not be phony, your behaviour is certainly shallow.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: Most Ridiculous ? (Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C")
Keywords: No
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 08:33:52 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.185959.9672@news.iastate.edu> zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:
>>>  3. How much of the gold reserve was transfered to Taiwan through warships ? 
Would you please tell me how much?  Well, the KMT state just carried
their properties with them even if they lost the real estate and slaves.
KMT also stole a lot in Taiwan from poors and riches.  Together with the
state of ROC, KMT owns half of Taiwan in the business sense.  It is
really hard to say whether Taiwan has been benefitted by the fact that
KMT moved their booty to Taiwan.  After all, Taiwan is just one of KMT's
booty.

Tze-yau Huang
From: tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: CHINESE STUDENT ASSOCIATION
Keywords: CSA
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:59:23 GMT
Reply-To: tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com ()
Organization: IBM Austin Advanced Workstation Division

My sister is going to New Mexico State University this summer.
Please tell me the contact, address and telephone number of
the Chinese Student Association (or similar organization).

Best Regards,

/* ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 * The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.
 *
 * Take care and have a nice day.
 *
 * Ter-Yuan Lee
 * ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 */
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: steven@dlb.com (Steven Tsowen Chiang)
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Organization: D.L.Buck & Associates, Inc.; San Jose, Calif.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 03:50:03 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.225426.1071@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.190605.15000@dlb.com>, steven@dlb.com (Steven Tsowen Chiang) writes:
><In article <1992Apr8.003446.16021@cs.yale.edu> horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne) writes:
><>Wrong.  The Republic of China lasted for almost forty years, not just five.
><
><In fact, ROC has been founded for more than eighty years, 
><not just forty.
>
>Correction:  It *was* founded eighty years ago.  It isn't correct to say that
>the Xia dynasty "has been founded" for several millennia.
>
No matter what you say, ROC won't change a bit.
Go ahead to play the words game, if this is all you can do.

><>What "economic achievements" has the GOVERNMENT of the so-called "ROC"
><>in Taiwan made?!  I can't think of one.
><
><You can't think of one becaues you are not familiar with Taiwan, ROC.
>
>Answer the question, please.
>
Anyone from Taiwan can easily pick one, such as high GNP or export volume
among developing countries.  These are resulted from the hard working
ROC government and citizens.

>South Africa isn't sleazy?!?!  South Korea isn't sleazy?!?!  I guess an
>"ROC"-backer would think so.
>
Though people still criticize the politics of these two countries,
they are moving toward democracy.  Recently, South Africa has decided
to terminate the apartheid.  This is a significant movement.

You have your right to call them sleazy.  But they won't become sleazy
just because you call them so.  Since I am not an expert on this issue,
I won't be able to discuss with you throughly.  If you like, you can
redirect your article to soc.culture.korean and soc.culture.african.
I believe there are more qualified people who are willing to discuss
this with you.

-- 
       Steven T. Chiang || steven@dlb.com || {netcomsv, zygot}!dlb!steven
       DISCLAIMER: Views presented herein are mine exclusively and do not 
      necessarily represent anyone else's, including those of my employer.
From: hhwu@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (eric.wu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Some thoughts about Huang Shun Xin
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:55:11 GMT
Organization: AT&T


Thanks to two netters.  Now I know that Huang Shun Xin is not 
related to Huang Xin Jei and he is a sincere idealist, leaning 
toward socialism.

Some random thoughts on this incident:

1. When Huang failed to get reelected in 1983, he fired his voters
   and moved to a different customer base.  I cannot agree with
   that.  If he was really catering to the people he should modify
   his ideal to meet people's need, not the other way around.

2. Huang's recent protest seems to have popular support.  For the
   same reason, I usually don't feel ridiculed when somebody does 
   something dramatic in Legislative Yuan.

3. I wander what Chinese people would think about HSX.  To them,
   he should be just like the overseas representatives in Taiwan.    
   Somehow I don't see him as Don Quixote.  He is more like Yoko 
   Ono, the Yoko Ono who apologized to mankind because mankind 
   had to suffer the reality in the cruel world.  It is a very 
   noble gesture that I cannot understand.

Eric
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: hsiang@sbhsiang.cs.sunysb.edu (J. Hsiang)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:29:28 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.3716.3716@Eng.Sun.COM> peter@Eng.Sun.COM (Peter Liu) writes:
>A few proud ROC citizens still don't understand what I mean.
>So let me make an example:
>
>I guess a lot of people have watched the very famous movie
>"The sound of music". 
>
>betrays his friendship/love with the captain's family
>and reports the captain's  escape to NAZI.
>
> ...
>
>I think even a child can see that the boy's wrong.
>But why can't these proud citizens understand what's wrong with their pride?  
>Need a mirror?

Wouldn't it be nice if the world is so clear cut like in a movie?
If every "good" guy has a "good" mark on their forehead and every bad
guy has one that says "bad", there wouldn't be any problems in the
world then, would it?

>
>A country is worth of loving only if 
>the country is established on the basis of justice and love.

Why isn't the country of ROC estalished on the basis of justice and love?
Sanming Juyi is out of dated, yes, but it was a good idea.  Where in
there was injustice and hatred advocated?

>When a government consistently cheats its people, prevails unjust, 
>and commits crimes by promoting the belief of nationalism (or blind loyalty),
>the country/nation under its ruling becomes a machine, a tool
>for that crime committing government.

Name one government that doesn't do what you just described.  Just one.

>The KMT government intentionally did evil things in the past,
>and is still intentionally doing evil things now.

So does the Bush government and the Republican Party.

>Since there is no sign showing that KMT want to stop blinding people in Taiwan,
>I don't think there is a good chance for KMT to become less evil in the future.

There's no chance for the Republican party to become less evil in
the future either.

>To render loyalty to this kind of country is blind and meaningless.

Your mean to render loyalty to this kind of GOVERNMENT is blind and
meaningless.  Clearly you are confusing GOVERNMENT with COUNTRY.

>
>Need a mirror, proud citizens?
>When a person from Mainland said
>"I am proud of Chinese culture." or
>"I am proud of being a Chinese (in ethical/non-political sense).",
>there is no objection in my mind.
>But when a person from Mainland said
>"I am proud of People Republic of China."
>"I am proud of the Chinese Communist Government/Party."
>I feel the person is as guilty as Li-Peng.
>
>So, proud citizens, see the difference?
>

You are the one who's confused.  You are equating KMT with ROC.
Do you also equate the Bush regime with the U.S.A.?  Who gave KMT
the exclusive right to be the only possible government of ROC? 
Suppose tomorrow KMT gets vote out of the office, does that mean
ROC ceases to exist?  Is it stated in the constitution of ROC that KMT
must be the ruling party of ROC??  What kind of mentality is this?  
If the Republicans got vote out of the office in November, does the
United States disappear?

So, Peter, see the difference?



Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear))
Subject: Re: Control?! (The Six-Year...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:38:59 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.015328.21159@leland.Stanford.EDU> infiniti@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Chung-Yih Lee) writes:
>	You seem to suggest, too, that since the guy does not support your
>political view, he is "bad" and the people beating him up is "good." And then
>"bad" guys deserve to be beaten into a pulp by "righteous citizens."
>	Come on, man. Please realize that "good" and "bad" are not absolute;
>especially when judged by political opinions. Moreover, anybody has their human
>rights. I know that citizens have rights to initiate their own arrest when they
>see a crime happen; but I have never heard of citizens' right to assault people
>with different opinions. And to label them "BAD." "BAD GUYS."
>	An average cop is supposed to protect the citizens. Even if a citizen 
>does not support the government or recognize the country, if the cop regards 
>himself as one of the ROC police force(and getting paid for it) he has to 
>protect the citizen. And you want to say, "hey, the guy doesn't even recognize
>the ROC! Why should the government he hates protect him?"
>Heck, he doesn't recognize the ROC but the government is collecting his tax 
>money all right, I suppose.
	
	The mistake here you made is that you mixed ROC with KMT.
	As I said, ROC is our country and KMT is a party. You can
	dislike anything KMT did, You can support DPP's political
	statements, you can hate those thousand-year Congressmen
	(as I do too), you can...., because that's your freedom.
	But as I said ROC is our country and most of us are proud
	of being ROC's citizen, anyone is not allow to insult our
	country. Another example, I can dislike you, Mr. Lee, and 
	you can dislike me too, but I can't say all LEEs are
	SOB, because LEE is a fame, a family name, a symbol of
	Lee families. And I am pretty sure that if I say this on purpose
	I will be flamed or beaten by lots Lees, but I am sure that
	policemen would still rescue me if I were in Taiwan even 
	though they might have a Lee last name....
>
>	Don't even think about sending personal e-mail flames. If it's not good
>enough to be posted, it's not good enough for me to care.
>
>							Richard Lee
>Hong2 Lou2 Tsai2 Zi3 Gai4 Tien1 Hsia4!
>Go Card! There's no place like here.

	Paul
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 15 Apr 92 21:42:32 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <12420@tamsun.tamu.edu>, hung@ee.tamu.edu (Tzu-Chien Hung) writes:
> In article <1992Apr14.100425.2943@vax.muskingum.edu+ ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu writes:
> +In article <1992Apr13.202045.22500@watserv1.waterloo.edu+, ptyshih@watnow.waterloo.edu (Paul T.Y. Shih (Taku or Pear)) writes:
> ++ 
> ++ 	Greeting for the big day! And thanks, HSNU (the senior high
> ++ 	school of National Taiwan Normal University), for giving me
> ++ 	the best high school life I could get in Taiwan.....
> ++ 
> ++ 	Paul T.Y. Shih (H472)
> +
> +
> +	** Hay, I think Jian Guo Zhon Hsieh is better than HSNU.
> +	   People from Jian Zhon should have a better high school
> +	   life. Shouldn't it? 
> 
> Eric, you are absolutely right.
> 


	** Hay, when is the birthday of Jian Zhon? How come
	   I never know there is one?  Ooops!

	   Too bad, I can't even remember the tune of the "School Anthem"
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: HSNU needs you!
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:49:10 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <92107.151538U49110@uicvm.uic.edu>, U49110@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>      Second, almost everyday when I took the bus Lin2-Don1 ? (zero-east ?)
>      anyway, some bus routing throug Tsong2-Ching4-South Road,  there
>      were always some (I'm talking about 2 or 3) Bei3-Yau1-ers didn't
>      get off the bus at Taipei FGHS stop where they were supposed to get off.
>      Instead, they waited for two more stops and got off the bus at Jain4-Zon1
>      stop with "me". Well, intresting finding -- 8-)  How observant I was !!


	** What a chance ! What did you do? 
	   You lose *all* the face of Jian Zhon students if you 
	   did *nothing*.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: aamir@IASTATE.EDU (Mohammad Asif)
Subject: Re: State vs. Nation (Was Re: advice to Mr. Joe Wang)
Reply-To: aamir@IASTATE.EDU (Mohammad Asif)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 01:16:35 GMT
From: lko@math.rutgers.edu (lko)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: "Epidemic" (Re: Most Ridiculous ?...)
Date: 17 Apr 92 20:10:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: math.Apr.17.16.10.22.1992.21422
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Apr17.152202.17450@acsu.buffalo.edu>, chchang@acsu.buffalo.edu (Chun-Shi Chang) writes:
> [Sigh... S/He just won't let go. Is s/he?]

   So the purpose is to shut me up? |-)

   You won, by following up with nonsense. 


lehhun
Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:7207 soc.culture.china:12466
From: horne-scott@CS.YALE.EDU (Scott Horne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan, "R.O.C"
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:34:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Apr8.003446.16021
Organization: Computer "Science" Dept, Yale University

I don't think I can post to `tw.misc', so I'm dropping it from the `Newsgroups'
line.

In article <92098.175400WSCHEN@twnmoe10.edu.tw>, Wen-Sung Chen <WSCHEN@twnmoe10.edu.tw> writes:
<
<      The Six-Year National Development Plan for Taiwan
<              Republic of China (1991-1996)

Wrong.  The Republic of China lasted for almost forty years, not just five.

<The outstanding economic achievements won by the government of the
<Republic of China on Taiwan over the past 40 years

What "economic achievements" has the GOVERNMENT of the so-called "ROC"
in Taiwan made?!  I can't think of one.

<have been
<termed an "economic miracle" by people all over the world,

Not by me.  But I approve of the quotation marks.

<and the
<"Taiwan experience" is widely admired and emulated by other
<developing countries.

Name one.

<Along with our rapid economic growth,
<however, have come a number of imbalances and disjunctions which
<are reflected with particular severity as defects in the areas of
<transportation, environment, social order, culture, and leisure
<activities.

Indeed.

<We have compiled this little booklet to help our own people and
<our friends around the world

What "friends around the world" does the so-called "ROC" have?  Good ole
South Africa and south Korea--that's about all.  And I certainly wouldn't want
to call those sleazes my only friends.

					--Scott

-- 
Scott Horne                               ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne
horne@cs.Yale.edu      SnailMail:  Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT   06520
203 436-1848                Residence:  Rm 1848 Silliman College, New Haven, CT
ZANG4 HAN4 YI4 JIA1 / GONG4 JIAN4 ZHONG1HUA2!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: thuang@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Tze-yau Huang)
Subject: Re: to proud citizens
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 11:01:32 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.003526.15554@medsys.rn.com> bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System) writes:
>A while ago, some people were so excited about the direct presidential
>election thinking that it would give Taiwan a better future. Exemplified
>by your example here, isn't it clear that direct election may not give
>what those people expect?

Direct election implemented in the DPP way will generate a sense of
participation among the population who are discouraged by the
inaccessiblity of the top offices of the government.  The KMT prepared a
different version of direct election which gives president the same
mandate through a much more complex scheme in which a National Assembly
Rep. is voted on the same ballot.  I agree that system does not matter
that much, but the government should be easily accessed by people
through simple routines.

> In other word, Hitler, who was elected by people,
>led Germany to you-know-what. Thus, president generated by direct election
>doesn't necessary lead Taiwan to a better future, right? To broaden even
>further, democracy doesn't necessary lead to a better future, right? 
> 
I disagree, it only means that representative government through free
election does not necessary lead to a better future.  It does not mean
that democracy does not guarrantee a better future.  Democracy is the
participation of MANY people in the decision making process of their
life-chances.

>Chou1

Tze-yau Huang

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan