From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com (Itzhak Kremer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 5 Jan 93 10:47:09 GMT
Reply-To: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com (Itzhak Kremer)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

>>	Where do YOU think the Jewish historical claim originated? Maybe
>>	you've got some secret document? Even those Jews who do not
>>	accept the Bible as a holy book still accept it as part of their
>>	heritage.
>
>If the Jews do not accept their own bible as their holy book (obviously
>they must thing that it is very week), then how do you expect the Moslems
>(or the world) to accept it as a historical document.

	I couldn't care less what the Moslems accept or  do not accept.
	I mentioned the Bible as a source for JEWISH opinion on the
	"historical" right to the Land. 
	
	I accept the works of Josephus as historical documents but I
	don't consider them holy. Likewise, someone can consider the
	Bible as a cultural, historical and/or philosophical document
	without considering it holy. What's your problem with that?

>>	Again read closely - ZIONIST DO HAVE AN HISTORICAL
>>	CLAIM BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY WERE THE FIRST TO INHABIT THE
>>	LAND. Abraham (father of the Moslems as well) purchased part of
>>	the land from the original natives. And yes we did later conquer
>>	the land from the Caananites and the other pagan nations that
>>	inhabited the land before us.
>>
>Are the Moslems pagans ?!!! ... Are the christians also pagans ??!!!

	Huh? I'm talking about the Zionist historical claims as based on
	Biblical history and you bring me the Moslems and Christians!?

>>>Allowing those 1-meter-beard-long people to teach us about the history
>>>is not understandable nor credible.
>>
>>	Oops your anti-Semitism is showing again.
>
>Insisting that I am anti-Semitic when I SAID several times that I am
>a Semite is really stupid and foolish on your part. You are very much
>like the Zionist government who has been chewing the juice out of this
>gum for 50 years and they think that the juice is still there.

	And now your ignorance is showing. Anti-Semitism is a term
	coined in the late 1800's to refer specifically to anti-JEWISH
	hostility. You can be, and are, an anti-Semitic Semite - sorry,
	but that's a fact.
	
>>	What does
>>	1-meter-beard-long people have to do with this discussion unless
>>	you are referring to the Hamas leaders?
>
>Not really ... I was referring to the Israeli-Hamas ... The Rabbis ...

	"Israeli-Hamas ... The Rabbis"? Coming from you, I'm not sure if
	it's meant as a compliment or insult.
	
>>	Are you disputing the Bible's claim that the Jews were NOT the
>>	first to inhabit the Land?  If so, then you're contradicting
>>	yourself.
>
>The government of Israel has always alluded the world by not mentioning
>the fact that the Israelis (the Hebrew slaves) were not the first to be
>in Palestine. If you ask an average person who knows about israel and
>the middle east you would notice that he knows that the Israelis were
>in Palestine ORIGINALLY but you would rarely find someone who knows the
>truth that there were people in Palestine even before the Hebrew slaves came.

	Pure bull. The world doesn't need the Israeli government to give
	them lessons on the history of the Holy land. I suppose that the
	Israeli government also bribes all of the school teachers and
	university lecturers and controls the mass media. Do you have
	even one source to back up all this crap?

>>>Does you bible preaches its followers to:
>>>
>>>  1) Hunt down 10 year olds in the streets with machine guns.
>>
>>	No.
>
>That is what the Israeli police are doing ...
>
>>>  2) Continuous oppressing the other people living along side the Jews
>>>     with fire and iron.
>>
>>	No.
>
>That is what the Israeli police are doing ...
>
>>>  3) allowing only people whose mother (not father or one's self) is
>>>     Jewish to illegally immigrate to Palestine and deport the
>>>     righteous owners.
>>
>>	No.
>
>That is what the Israeli government is doing ...
>
>>	These are all part of your BIG lie. Show me your Biblical sources
>>	for these if you have any?
>
>Biblical sources ... Is this a typo or what ... what did you mean by
>biblical sources. I am saying that the Israeli police is hunting down
>10 year old principle-filled children fighting the ugly oppressor with
>stones.

	You asked about what the BIBLE preaches and I answered you. If
	you think it preaches otherwise then show me your sources.

	Talking about ugliness, have you seen Arafat lately?
	
>>>And by the way please post from your bible the International borders
>>>of EREST YETSRAEL as promised by your bible, so that every one can see
>>>and judge for themselves.
>>
>> 	No doubt about it - the borders of the 'historical' Land of
>> 	Israel extends from Wadi El-Arish in the south to the Euphrates
>> 	in the North.  So what?
>
>What do you mean "So what" ... That means that means that the Zionist
>claim in not only in Palestine but also Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon
>and parts of Saudi arabia.

	And the American Indians claim "historical rights" to all of
	America. So what? BTW, 
>
>Second, the Euphrates though it comes from the north but it seems logical
>that you should say the Euphrates from the east (or north and east). Anyway
>these international borders as sated explicitly in the bible (I doubt this
>very much) do not seem to be conciseness because they did not also define the
>borders from the west ?

	Here's our great Bible scholar speaking!
	
>P.S. You did not provide us with a biblical quote ... If you never read
>the bible from which all your proofs and your rhetoric came from then it
>is all-right. But please note that you have to let us know so that we will
>take your posting and post them in the garbage where they really belong.

	Suddenly the Bible has become so important to you that you need
	exact quotes?  OK I'll give it to you if you want it so badly.
	Look in the Book of Numbers, Chapter 34. You'll find the borders
	in all the directions. If you have trouble understanding the
	Biblical terminology and references, go to the library and look
	up the commentators. (I can give you references to them as well).

>> 	We never claimed that we have an
>> 	obligation to conquer all of the Land which historically is ours.
>
>Not really ... You accepted the UN resolution in 1947 knowing that the arab
>side would not accept such an unjust resolution, then you swallowed

	Now that was smart of us, wasn't it?
	
>a lot more than what you agreed upon in 1947 in 1948 war. I am sure that
>there were voices back in 1948 saying that "We will never swallow more than
>what the we already swallowed" ... However the result turned out to be the

	Any sources?
	
>opposite.  Because in 1967 After the second white hearted claim was settled
>for 20 years another white hearted claim saying that we will never claim
>more than what we have just swallowed came about ... The Zionist ambitions
>in the middle east go far beyond what is already present as demonstrated
>by your big mouth. Your claim as well as criminals like Shamir, Beigen,
>Golda-Maier do not stand credible and history proved that already

	Yes, and this great Zionist conspiracy is out to conquer the
	world. 
		
>> 	NO RABBI ADVOCATES (PRIVATELY OR PUBLICLY) THE CONQUEST OF THE
>> 	ENTIRE LAND OF ISRAEL.
>
>How the hell did you know what those 1-meter-beard-long Rabbis hide in
>their hearts. Please stop posting such garbage.

	What a clever way out! You can't provide sources so you tell us
	what the Rabbis are hiding in their hearts. (BTW how long are the 
        Hamas leaders' beards?)
	
>>	22 states isn't enough for you - you need it all. What right do
>>	you have to preach moderation to us?
>
>Actually one large and powerful state is enough ... but several week
>states can never be able to do anything.

>	
>>>Taking the bible to be the only source by which the "legality" of the
>>>foundation of the illegal state of Israel is deducted is not only
>>>very week but it is also untrue ... I am sure that most of the Zionists
>>>on this net do not agree with you. The Zionist claim in Palestine had
>>>always been historical and if you look into several of those heroic
>>>documentaries about the creation of this illegal state you would
>>>know beyond any doubt that you do not know what you are talking about.
>>>
>>>	I never said that the Bible is the ONLY source for claiming
>>>	legality of the State of Israel. Maybe it's easier for you to
>>	think that. I don't need to prove legality. We're here - like it
>>	or not.
>>
>
>Ok let me post what you have said and explain the difference between the
>words only and most ...
>
>YOU WROTE:
>
>   Whether you believe in it or not, the
>   Bible is the most authoritative book on what the Jews' claim is their
>   right to the Land of Israel. Before you put your foot in your mouth
>
>It is hilarious that in that article which you wrote using your toes and
>tongue, that you repeatedly mentioned that the Zionist claim in Palestine was
>related to the bible (how week). Then you jumped from your needle bed
>and asked us to believe that the bible is not "the ONLY source for
>claiming legality of the State of Israel". Well if it is not then for
>the sake conciseness at least mention that other thing in your post
>believe that this thing is as comparable in significance (or slightly
>less) to the bible.

	Read what you wrote. Does it make sense to you? Did you explain 
	the difference between the words only and most?
	
	MOST does NOT mean ONLY.
	I said the Bible is the MOST authoritative source for determining
	the JEWISH point of view as to their "historic" claim to the Land
	of Israel.  I did not even bring up the subject of the legality of
	the State of Israel.  Frankly I don't care who thinks we are legal
	or not. The Nazis said that the JEWS' existence was illegal. You
	say that Israel's existence is illegal. I'm unimpressed equally
	by both statements.
	

>>>>3) I'd like to know what Jewish source you've got that claims we are a
>>>>   "race". I've heard Jews claim that we are a nation, culture, ethnic
>>>>   group and even religion but only the anti-Semites call us a "race".
>>>
>>>Arabs are Semite ... They cannot be Anti-Semite.
>
>>	English lesson:
>>
>>	anti-Semite n. A person hostile toward Jews
>>	(The American Heritage Dictionary)
>>
>>	What does your dictionary say????
>
>Yow Stupid take this in your face ...
>
>Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th Ed., Copyright 1991 Oxford Univ. Press
>
>/Semite/ <<"si:maIt>>, <<"sem->> n.[People] a member of any of the peoples
>supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.), including
>esp. the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, and Phoenicians{adj. omitted Mar 88}.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^

	You just can't stop displaying your uneducated, ignorant baseness.
	OK lets do this step by step.
	1) Open the dictionary to the words beginning with 'A' (near the
	beginning).
	2) Look for the entry "anti-". In my dictionary it comes just
	after the word 'anthropomorphic'.
	3) Now go down the list until you find 'anti-Semite'. Got it?
	What does that entry say? Surprise!! Could you please post that
	entry.
	
	Now get this. Semite refers to a member of a certain group of
	peoples which includes both Jews and Arabs, but 'Anti-Semite'
	is a word coined to refer specifically to JEW haters. 

>Are you satisfied ... Over and Over again ... I say that the arabs are semites
>and that it is really foolish to use this term that was produced by the
>Zionist GUM factories in europe and chew it over to the middle east where
>everyone is a Semite.

	Don't you sound a bit foolish now that you checked it out in the
	dictionary.

>>	If you think that a 10-year-old knows what a
>>	righteous principle is or is not, then you obviously don't have
>>	children of your own.  I feel sorry that these kids have cowardly
>>	parents that are willing to endanger the lives of their own
>>	children rather than fight themselves for their beliefs.
>
>You are a damned liar ... How did you know that the parents of those
>children ordered them to through stones ... All the circumstances leads
>us to believe that even though they are only 10 year old but they have
>a high principle that they are fighting for. From what I know, the parents
>always tell there children to keep away for trouble and throwing stones
>but due to the high spirit of these 10 year old children they disobey
>their parents for the sake of the high principle they are living for.

	And your a damned fool if you believe this hogwash. What
	experience do you have in raising children that you can be an
	expert in the ability of 10-year-olds to determine for themselves
	what is a "high principle"?  Any parent who cannot control the
	behavior of a 10-year child needs guidance in parenthood.

-Itzhak
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast