HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr))
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environmentalists
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:41:46 GMT

In an amazing post against the environmental movement (presumably)

mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) writes:
: 
: The religious aspects of these movements can not be overlooked; although
: allegedly they reject the Judeo-Christian ``man have dominance over all of
: nature'' ethic, they have not replaced it with an Atheistic viewpoint (which
: would be one of strict scientific rationality).  Rather, these movements
: adhere to New Age mysticism, and are determined to sweep aside all infidels.

Hmmm. It always seemed odd to me that those with a traditional christian
outlook interpreted the "dominance over nature" thing as an invitation to do
whetever the f***k they liked to nature. Dominion might also imply
responsiblity, husbandry, nurturance etc.

As for the rest of this post, I was utterly amazed by it's narrowmindedness.
I thought such views were only held by stereotypic characters on American
TV. You mean they DO exist? Wow! The tax man's here maw, where's ma shotgun.
Sorry, but I'm laughing too much to type anymore.

Perry Morrison


Xref: sparky misc.rural:2870 ba.mountain-folk:368
From: kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,ba.mountain-folk
Subject: Re: Road Maintenance
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:26:37 GMT
Followup-To: misc.rural
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

>
>Get some "rip rap", "rip rock", or whatever your local quarries call
>the roughly football sized crushed stone they sell.  Around here the
>stuff goes for about $20 a ton delivered.  Get a few tons and build in
>where the erosion is happening.  Put down one layer of rocks, then
>shovel in some smaller gravel liberally.  Then build up a few more
>layers of rock.  This should end your erosion problems in that area.

Our neighbors tried the smaller sized 2" rock, it washed away. Is the 
rock you describe about 6"? if so, Andolini's in Soquel sells it for 
quite a bit more per ton ($150 or so). 

>
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: enenkel@cs.toronto.edu (Robert Frederick Enenkel)
Subject: Re: Strange Idea
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:17:44 GMT

camelsho@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (   James A Seymour) writes:

>I'm sure that this is a strange question, but.....
>What would it take to breed swine into a longer
>limbed, and consequently taller, bigger breed?

Not all that strange.  I know there are papers on breeding Carp for
reduced number of intramuscular bones.  If I remember correctly, all
they did there was to select the most favourable individuals and breed 
them together, then do the same with their offspring, etc.  This is
also the process that produced Koi (Japanese Coloured Carp) from common
carp, the occasional natural mutation of which had some colouration.

Isn't that the only way to produce desired traits in any animal? 
(Except, I suppose, by doing strange things to the DNA using radiation...)

Robert Enenkel
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Advice needed on farm/general use truck 
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 12:52:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.233909.26964@sj.ate.slb.com> jones@sj.ate.slb.com (Clark Jones) writes:
>Victor W. Lovejoy (lovejoy@cantor.math.purdue.edu) wrote:
>: Logic tells me that a Chevy 1/2 ton will haul 1/2 ton of stuff in it's bed
>: just the way it comes off the showroom floor - no optional coolers or shocks
>: needed. Am I right? We have a few months to decide on the vehicle we want
>: and the place we want to buy it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

>
>Since I weigh about 200 lbs fully dressed, and carry maybe 10 lbs in the
>glove box, and maybe another 30 lbs of stuff behind the seat, and allowing
>another 20 lbs for dirt, the 2M Ham radio antenna, etc., that leaves about
>600 lbs for stuff in the bed of my S-10.


If you'll note the sticker on your S-10, it gives you a total vehicle
payload capacity of about 1800 lbs (yes, I have an S-10).  Two
passengers plus all the junk you mentioned should leave 1200-1400lbs
payload.  That's why the 1/2 ton rating.

BTW, my S-10 regularly carries 1000 lbs of payload in the bed no
problems.  On the rare occasion I've put more (up to 1 ton) it's
handled it.  It sure as hell didn't like it, but it handled it.  Made
for interesting highway driving.

-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Road Maintenance
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:25:33 GMT

In article <77244@apple.apple.COM> kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver) writes:
>>
>>Get some "rip rap", "rip rock", or whatever your local quarries call
>>the roughly football sized crushed stone they sell.  Around here the
>>stuff goes for about $20 a ton delivered.  Get a few tons and build in
>>where the erosion is happening.  Put down one layer of rocks, then
>>shovel in some smaller gravel liberally.  Then build up a few more
>>layers of rock.  This should end your erosion problems in that area.
>
>Our neighbors tried the smaller sized 2" rock, it washed away. Is the 
>rock you describe about 6"? if so, Andolini's in Soquel sells it for 
>quite a bit more per ton ($150 or so). 

This stuff can be anywhere from 6" to 1'.  Of course, around here it's
limestone, in California (I believe that's where you are) it might be
different.  Don't pay $150 a ton for any crushed stone!  Even given
regional differences that's way too much.  At that price it's worth
your while to pick it up along road cuts.  Call up your county highway
dept. and aske them to make recommendations as to who might have the
cheapest stone.  

Around here I can pick up #8 stone (small stuff, 1") for $8 a ton, $12
delivered.  Rip rap only costs me $14 a ton if I pick it up, but at
that price it's almost just as easy to pick it up for free along road
cuts.  The time I had 10 tons delivered made paying the extra $6 a ton
worth it :-)


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: spf@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environmentalists
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:56:54 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

From article <MS-C.727816491.1103527590.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>, by Mark Crispin <mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>:

(Long diatribe deleted)

Mark:

1. I farm.
2. I hunt.
3. I am an environmentalist.

As a farmer, I practice low-input sustainable methods, and I see to the
comfort of my animals during their life (though I may then be responsible
for their death and consumption).

As a hunter, I only take shots which offer the great likelihood of a clean
kill, and we eat what I kill.  I also volunteer my time to help enforce
wildlife laws so that the activity of the many concientious hunters is
not threatened by the actions of the few slobs.

As an environmentalist, I work to protect surface and groundwater supplies,
protect vital wildlife habitat, discourage reckless development, and
encourage thoughtful land use practices.

Am I your friend or your enemy?

I submit that there is a middle ground, that these issues are complicated,
and that they will not be solved to anyone's satisfaction by an "us vs them"
approach.

I encourage you to consider the possibility that the issues you cite are
not black and white.

Steve Frysinger
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
From: <JCLEWIN@MTUS5.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 22 Jan 1993 08:29:41 EST
Organization: Computing Technology Services, Michigan Technological Univ.

In article <1993Jan21.000320.3921@informix.com>, lynns@informix.com (Lynn
Schneider) says:
>>What's the difference between neglecting sheep and torturing animals
>>in lab experiments or factory-farming, for that matter? It's just
>>as disgusting, but you won't find the D.A. pressing charges. I'm
>>not suggesting he shouldn't be prosecuted. It's just that there is
>>a lot of terrible animal abuse that goes on every day that people
>>just don't want to look at.
>>--
>
>True, Robert, but that doesn't make it any less horrible. Perhaps one
>day we humans will discover that torturing animals for ANY purposes,
>intentional or unintentional, must be stopped.
>
>And please, no long flaming threads about this subject. Those belong on
>other newsgroups, IMHO.
Sorry my friend, but if you don't want flames then be carefull about what
you support.

As noted by an earlier poster, the use of animals in lab experiments provides
many purposes.  Not the least of which is to save human lives.  Or for that
matter to save the lives of other animals.  Or to educate students on how
animals work.   It would take to much space to list all the diseases     for
   which animal research was (or is) a factor.

What I find most "interesting" is that we humans            often apply
_human_ wants and needs on animals.  Is my pet dog happy?  Most people
would say yes.  It has a nice home to sleep in.  It has a nice dog house to
protect her from the the elements.  I feed her.  I give her water.  I probably
don't walk her enough, but she seems to be happy.  Yet.... her natural instinct
s        have been supressed.  Isn't domestication the ultimate "abuse?"
Then there's forced sterilization.  Hey, if we forced humans of mixed races
to get "fixed" we would (reasonably) throw a fit.  Yet we do it for dogs,
FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.  Who decides -  the dog? or us?

I can go on: where is the cut off, do we treat all animals the same or just
vertebrates?  Is hunting and fishing less human than letting someone else raise
and kill my food?  Is that cow _really_ happier than the buck that lives in
its natural enivironment before being shot?   Is the use of animal products
bad, even though using a renewable resorce may reduce the amount of petro
chemicals used, and hence the amount of environmental disturbance??

In closing:  My comments are directed at those who wish to eliminate all
use of animals.  I do not condone the sheep farmer that was the subject of
the original post.  Nor do I condone malicious torture of animals.  We use
live animals for many aspects of biology.  They need to be weighted on
an indivual basis.

Okay, off my soap box.

JCLEWIN@MTUS5.BITNET
Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Better put that disclaimer,  my comments may or may not represent Tech, or
members of the Dept.
From: psmith@alfred.carleton.ca (Peter Smith)
Subject: Re: Advice needed on farm/general use truck 
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:23:17 GMT

In <C180q6.2FI@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> lovejoy@cantor.math.purdue.edu (Victor W. Lovejoy) writes:

>Hi, everyone, this is Vic. My fiance, Jodi, and I are going to be married in
>May and live in Greencastle, IN. She will graduate in May and start working 
>as a Veterinarian there.  I will be commuting to Purdue (~75 miles) three days  per week to finish my degree. She and I have two horses that reside on her 
>Mother's farm about 10 miles away from Greencastle. We have decided to buy
>a pickup for me when she graduates so we will both have transportation and 
>we'll have some way to haul hay and feed to the horses. 

>We don't have a horse trailer so there will be no trailering done on the
>truck. We figure that by the time we are ready buy our own land and move
>the horses to it, several years will have passed and we can rent or buy a
>truck and trailer then for that purpose. 

>So our situation is: we need a truck (A Chevy) that can be used for driving
>everyday and gets used like a car, and then has the capability to haul a 
>bed full of hay or maybe a few sacks of grain. We have looked at a 1500 that
>had a bunch of options (used) and it seemed nice. The cruise/air/stereo/power
>features would make my drive to Purdue easy to take, but will a  Chevy 1500 be
>strong enough to haul hay and feed?  I've heard that in order to haul the 1/2
>ton the truck is rated for, special coolers and suspension will be needed. 
>That seems crazy. If the truck will only haul 300 pounds in it's stock conditionwhy don't they call it a Chevy 300 pound truck?

>Logic tells me that a Chevy 1/2 ton will haul 1/2 ton of stuff in it's bed
>just the way it comes off the showroom floor - no optional coolers or shocks
>needed. Am I right? We have a few months to decide on the vehicle we want
>and the place we want to buy it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


I am also starting to look for a truck or maybe a van.  The problems I
find looking at pickups are:

* they don't have seating/locking/sheltered space like a van
 
* pickups have become a status symbol at the expense of functionality
on a farm (as in your example of basic 300lb capacity, which is
nothing)

Nonetheless, I will continue to assess them, and I'll pass on anything
I find out.

On the positive side, the increased use as a liesure vehicle has meant
increased mileage ratings.

One thing that is interesting is that consumer reports' tests suggest
that pickup covers and caps do not improve fuel efficiency.  I thought
it would through reduced wind drag.

good luck
From: barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM (Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Raised Beds on leach lines.
Date: 27 Jan 1993 14:06:43 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: scout.east.sun.com

/tmp/rrn5482.5168
>In article <C1F5nH.Mq3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, jefftb@sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown) writes:
>|>   
>|>   Does anyone out there see problem with putting raise beds for gardening
>|>   on the septic sysem leach lines? I'm not covering the tank or any dist-
>|>   ribution boxes. The lines are fairly deep.
>|> 
>|>   Thanks 
>|>   Jeff Brown
>
>I do.  From my nieve understanding: your leach lines are buried at a
>particular depth depending on your perc.  If you put more material
>on top of your leach lines, you'll be changing your perc.  The tank's
>actually the best thing to cover, all you really need access to is
>"the lid".
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong...
>
>brucej@mentorg.com

Perc is not the ability for moisture to rise to the surface, it is the
ability for it to soak into the earth.  To determine this 2 things are
done, you do a 'perc' test (dig a hole and watch the rate some applied
water drops), and you determine the 'deep hole' properties of the 
soil.  The perc determines how much area the field requires, but the
depth of a leach field is determined by the frost line in the area 
and the high water point of the soil (i.e. you want to be between
these) that is found in the deep hole test.  Adding more soil would
only increase the range between these two points (by raising the frost
line).  This is exactly what is done with more expensive septic
systems where soil is brought in to raise the frost line thus
providing the necessary space between it and a high water table.  The
only potential problem with planting over a leach field is the
potential root invasion, but this can be avoided by sticking to annual
crops that have short root systems.
-barry andreasen
------------- standard disclaimer -----------------------
From: agnew@gems.vcu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:49:43 -0400
Organization: Medical College of Virginia

In connection with this thread on animal rights...  I think about the
(*^&%&  lady who ran my wife, me and my son off the road so she could
avoid a squirrel.  DON'T BRAKE FOR ANIMALS!!!!!   

         /^^^\   \ /   Jim Agnew         | AGNEW@RUBY.VCU.EDU  (Internet)
        /      >  ||   Neurosurgery,     | AGNEW@VCUVAX        (Bitnet)
   /\_/     '   \  /   MCV-VCU           | This disc will self destruct in
 /________________>    Richmond, VA, USA | five seconds.  Good luck, Jim..."

Xref: sparky misc.rural:2862 ba.general:5728 talk.politics.animals:11400 ba.mountain-folk:366
From: lynns@informix.com (Lynn Schneider)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,ba.general,talk.politics.animals,ba.mountain-folk
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
Date: 21 Jan 93 00:03:20 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan19.163302.2127@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.065859.23884@leland.Stanford.EDU> shedevil@gw.home.vix.com (Anne P. Mitchell, J.D.) writes:
>>
>>
>>I just saw the piece on the news about the *300*+ sheep that were
>>taken in by the Marin Humane Society.  It was tragic, and disgusting.
>> (stuff deleted)

>>What do others think about this?
>
>What's the difference between neglecting sheep and torturing animals
>in lab experiments or factory-farming, for that matter? It's just
>as disgusting, but you won't find the D.A. pressing charges. I'm 
>not suggesting he shouldn't be prosecuted. It's just that there is
>a lot of terrible animal abuse that goes on every day that people
>just don't want to look at.
>-- 

True, Robert, but that doesn't make it any less horrible. Perhaps one
day we humans will discover that torturing animals for ANY purposes,
intentional or unintentional, must be stopped. 

And please, no long flaming threads about this subject. Those belong on
other newsgroups, IMHO.
From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environmentalists
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:36:45 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu
To: Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm <spf@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Steve -

     You say that you are ``responsible for the death and consumption'' of
your animals, and that you hunt and eat your kills.  It seems that you have
defined yourself as *not* being an animal-rights activist.  Animal-rights
activists seek to ban all hunting, all animal husbandry, and all consumption
of meat.

     As for your environmentalism, you haven't said enough to define yourself.
A great many sins can be covered under ``discourage reckless development'' and
``encourage thoughtful land use practices.''  It's all a matter of degree.

     The 1989 definition of an ``environmentally-sensitive wetland'' is any
area where water is present for 7 days at a depth of 18 inches below the soil
surface.  Millions of acres of land that serve none of the functions of a
wetland -- presumably preserving water quality and providing habitat -- have
been effectively stolen from property owners using this overly-generous
definition, with no compensation.

     Other sins exist as well.  Where I live, we have huge numbers of the
tribal hippie-dippies singing insipid songs about ``working with the soil''
and preserving the farming lifestyle, but these same individuals -- through
their seizure of power in the local government -- are responsible for a
plethora of regulations which are driving farmers to extinction.  The hippie
dippies have as their allies in land seizure the Yuppies, whose idea of a
``rural area'' is one of ``piece and quiet'' with no farm machinery and
critters making noise and certainly no farm smells.

     So, where do you sit?  Is your idea of ``environmentalism'' one of using
natural resources in a responsible manner?  Or, is it the ``environmentalism''
of the extremists, who seek to create a plastic fantasy of a world untouched
by man?

-- Mark --
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Unusual
From: Stafford@Vax2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (John Stafford)
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:48:30 -0600
Followup-To: misc.rural
Distribution: na
Organization: MSUS

In article <7etY02B333aJ01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, dfs30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com
(Denise Solis) wrote:
> 
> I have an unusual question to pose to those of you out in the country.
> Have any of you seen UFOs or unidentified lights in the sky? How about
> crop  circles?

I live alone on the top of a 2,400 acre hill and yes, there were
strange things up here but I haven't seen many since we quit
using farm chemicals.
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: jefftb@sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown)
Subject: Raised Beds on leach lines. 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:54:53 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

  
  Does anyone out there see problem with putting raise beds for gardening
  on the septic sysem leach lines? I'm not covering the tank or any dist-
  ribution boxes. The lines are fairly deep.

  Thanks 
  Jeff Brown
From: csb@jax.org (Carolyn Blake)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Raised Beds on leach lines.
Date: 27 Jan 93 18:03:28 GMT
Organization: The Jackson Laboratory

In article <1k64tjINN3c6@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> you write:
>/tmp/rrn5482.5168
>>In article <C1F5nH.Mq3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, jefftb@sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown) writes:
>>|>   
>>|>   Does anyone out there see problem with putting raise beds for gardening
>>|>   on the septic sysem leach lines? I'm not covering the tank or any dist-
>>|>   ribution boxes. The lines are fairly deep.
>>|> 
>>|>   Thanks 
>>|>   Jeff Brown
>>

[perc stuff deleted]

I thought I'd read somewhere that gardening on top of your septic system
was a bad idea 'cause the septic leaves concentrated amounts of trace
elements/minerals that, in large doses,  are not good for human consumption -
and that's what your garden will 'suck up'.
I have no actual reference, so if I'm wrong please say so - my leach
field would be the best gardenable spot on my lot...

cb
Newsgroups: misc.rural