From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Subject: Re: Hiring Farang Again
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:46:00 GMT

In article <Bv99vG.E65@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, sdurong@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (sripen dur writes...
>From GODFREY@SSCVX1.SSC.GOV Fri Sep 25 18:30:05 1992
>Received: from sscvx1.ssc.gov by watserv1.uwaterloo.ca with SMTP
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>Date:    Fri, 25 Sep 1992 17:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
>From: GODFREY@SSCVX1.SSC.GOV
>Message-Id: <920925173001.234088cf@SSCVX1.SSC.GOV>
>Subject: Re: Hiring Farang in Thailand.
>To: sdurong@watserv1
>X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"sdurong@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca"
>Status: RO
> 	
>>>Khun Laurence,
> 
>>>Thank you for your response which you email me directly.  I think most Thai
>>>users in SCT should not miss your opinion so I post it  here.  At least we
>>>should learn what Farang really think about Thai people and Thailand when they
>>>say they love Thailand they love Thai people, they want to work in Thailand.
> 
>Let me answer some of your questions, as a farang who worked in Thailand
>(CMU).
> 
>One reason why farangs get paid more is that Thai people frequently charge
>them at least twice as much (and often 5 times as much) as they charge each 
>other for the same : housing, taxis, renting cars and motorbikes, food on
>the street etc.  Do you, for example, know of ANY 
>hotels in Thailand (other than the very smallest) that do not operate a two-tier
>price structure, charging less than half the price to Thais?  Even the airport
>hotel at Don Muang does this.
> 
>>>Do you know that when we, Thai students, first came to study here, the
>>>university that we were sent for cultural orientation programme charged 
>>>each of us Canadian $ 110 for welcoming us at the airport and put us in the
>>>residence.  The real cost of taxi fare from the airport to the residence was
>>>only Can $ 25.  What a rip off!  At the residence we were treated badly 
>>>because we were foreigners not Farang.  We came to know later that what we
>>>paid Can $ 35 for accommdation a night, we should have breakfast too.  But
>>>we were not informed by the people in charge.  When we told them they said
>>>it's the rule of the campus not to serve breakfast to us.  We were paid
>>>only a minimum allowance.  Do you people pay Thai workers who work here 
>>>twice or triple of your normal salary because they are Thai?  If there was 
>>>a case, I'm sure you guys will make a real loud noise, right?
> 

You were ripped off by the Canadians, in that case, and you have good
cause for complaint by the sound of it.  I am not going to try to
justify the behaviour of the Canadians, some of whom I know to be racist
and some of whom I know to be dishonest.  But does the fact that the
Canadians ripped you off invalidadte my complaints?  I don't think so.

>Take the universities - a farang foreign expert earns about twice as much as
>a Thai Assoc Professor, but the Thai gets free housing, a permanent job rather
>than a short-term contract, earns extra from corruption, bribes etc.  There
>is no doubt that the average Thai professopr has a far higher standard of
>living than his farang equivalent in Thailand, despite being paid half
>as much.  In addition, the family of the farang are not entitled to work
>while in Thailand.
> 
>>>If you really understand the situation in Thailand well enough or if you
>>>have enough knowledge about the country you won't say such things.  Most
>>>Thai government officers not only the university lecturers,but in general,
>>>do not get free housing or housing allowance as Farang do.   What I
>>>experienced the Farang rent houses, they paid 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a month.
>>>What kind of houses? Wow, a real big one that I will never imagine I could
>>>afford to live like that.  You also received allowance - big again for your
>>>families.  What about Thai workers?  50 Bath a month to feed a kid!
> 
I included the housing allowance (5000 B - not 50,000!!!) in my salary ratio
above.  The Thai ajans I worked with did get free housing from CMU.

>>>Khun Anand, our ex-prime minister, used to ask some American reporters that
>>>what about corruption in your own country?  Tell me Khun Laurence that you
>>>don't have corruption in your government or agencies?  Since you mentioned
>>>several times about corruption in Chula and Thailand, can you faithfully say
>>>your country is and has always been free of corruption?  By the way, we learn
>>>this word "corruption" from you, don't forget that.
> 
>>>You never heard the stories of Farang earn big extra money from corruption
>>>while working in Thailand?  I have heard many scandals about this.  Beleive
>>>it or not, I knew that one American preacher man corrupted during his work  
>>>in Chiengmai.  What kind of corruption? Drug, smuggling across the borders,
>>>cheating, cultural exploiting, ... you name it. 
> 

There is corruption in all countries, but in the UK, England and Canada
(the three I have worked in the west for the longest time) it is much less 
widespread than in Thailand.  Again I would say the same as above - does
the fact that you can point to something being wrong elsewhere too make it 
okay for it to be wrong in Thailand.


>Now I love Thailand and I am very fond of the Thai people, but I am in no
>doubt whatever that if the Thais could dispense with the services of farang
>workers they would readily do so.  The truth is that many of the farang who
>work in Thailand have expertise that is rare amonsgt the Thais, that is 
>the reason that they are paid well to work there.  I went to CMU with a 
>PhD from England and 8 years of postdoc experience in my field, and in that
>time I wrote the only international publication that the rsearch group had
>ever had (excluding one written by a Japanese), got their equipment
>working for them and did many things besides, but i still had to fight for
>more than a year after I left to get the salary I was owed by the university.
> 
>>>I've heard, read and seen how you people treat the native indian and 
>>>black people, I always ask why you people with expertise to teach the      
>>>Third World can't even apply your own expertise in your own communities.
>>>What about the garbage problems, what about the acid rain, what about
>>>the wasteful consuming behavior?  Is that true to say you can see only
>>>someone else's problems but not your own?
> 


Wait, I'm a nuclear physicist - that's the area I apply myself.  I cannot
be held resdponsible for all the wrong-doings of the western world!

>There is some truth in what you have to say about some farang workers in
>Bangkok - many of those working in commerce are not very impressive, and
>are there because they like the women or the boys.  However, the same is
>generally not true of the universities - although some may have the same
>reasons for being there, they are generally good in their fields and
>freqeuntly do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts.  Now
>those in commerce and industry are most often paid by foreign companies
>and they cost the Thai people nothing - if the companies want to employ
>drunken slobs who spend all their time in bars, that is their problem.
> 
>>>Farang do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts?  Who said
>>>so?  From Farang side only?  What I heard from my friends who were 
>>>counterparts said these Farang experts were lazy, they did not really 
>>>know what they were doing, or they did not work hard enough as what they
>>>were paid to, or they were just interested in going to Patpong only.
> 

This was my opinion from what I saw and heard at CMU and what I heard from others
working in universities elsewhere in Thailand.  I can
only speak for myself here - I have been to Patpong only once, I am not
at all lazy and work very long hours, I did solve a problem that had prevented
the research group from making their machine work for a very long time, I
do not exactly what I'm doing in my work and when I don't know something
I make sure that I work it out.

>I would take the opposite point of view to you on the whole - I don't
>believe the Thais pay higher salaries to farang because they think the
>farang are better, they pay them because they think they get more than
>their money's worth out of the farang and they frequently laugh behind the farang's backs because they are taking
>advantage of them.
> 
>>>Wow, this is really interesting!!  What we laughed behind you was because
>>>you think you are superior while your acting is not!!
> 

At this point your mail becomes a little childish/  You don't know me as
a person or as a physicist, nor do you know what I think, nor do you seem
to have understood what I said in my mails.  I think that in many ways
the Thais are superior to the English (I am English by the way), that is
one of the reasons why I keep going back there and why I like the country
so much.  In nuclear physics, I have no hesitation in saying that the
physicists in the west are in general much better than those in Thailand,
but there are good Thai physicists in Thailand and there are good Thai
physicists elsewhere in the world.  The truth is that the very good Thai
physicists do not remain in Thai universities.


>Having said all that, I still think I would encourage any farang who wanted
>to go to work in Thailand - it's a very interesting experience.  However,
>I personally would never again work for a Thai university or a Thai company,
>only a foreign-run outfit.  
> 
>>>Khun Laurence, from your previous news you posted in SCT, you said
>>>something like you WANT Thai people to be this and that...
>>>We, some Thai students here, discussed that WHO you think you are.
>>>Are you the farang who go to Thailand with the attitude that you people
>>>can dictate the Third World?
>regards Laurnce
> >>regards, Sripen
> 
> 
> 

I don't dictate to anyone.  I am who I am, and like everyone else I have
opinions about many things.  If I see something is wrong then I say so,
if I think it should be put right I say so, whether or not anyone listens
to me is up to them - I have no way to force my opinion on Thais or
anyone else.  Dictating is the imposition of policies BY FORCE (my definition).
I do not and cannot dictate to Thailand or anywhere else in the third
world.

Laurence

Newsgroups: soc.culture.thai