HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wilder@nx02.mik.uky.edu (jeff wilder)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:20:27 GMT

In <1993Jan25.231928.7328@news.columbia.edu> jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:

|	Well, I think one of the primary causes and reasons for this 
|group is that gamers are not a homogenous mass. My experiences with gamers 
|at U of Chicago was considerably different than here at Columbia. Different 
|people may see very different games using the same system. 
|	The only times I have seen SR games have been good, actually. 
|Richard Garfinkle out in Chicago was running one (hi, Ron); and my friend 
|Marc ran one down in Baltimore - and they were both highly non-munchkin. I 
|don't think this is representative, however - I would probably guess that 
|most SR campaigns are very much like you describe. 

Exactly.  The gripe I have with Christian is his ridiculous and offensive
assertion that the SR system somehow attracts, or even *causes* munchkin-
ism.

Most AD&D games are munchkin.

Most SRII games are munchkin.

I certainly won't argue these statements.  Nor do I believe that they
can be successfully disputed.  But let's not stop there.

Most Hero games are munchkin.

Most GURPS games are munchkin.  I have never seen a GURPS game that was
not rules-raped to the extreme, especially during initial character
construction.  Not one.

But I would never commit the fallacy of assuming that because I have
never personally witnessed a well-run GURPS game: 1) Such games do not
exist, 2) the system actively encourages such rules-raping, or 3) the
system attracts or even causes such behavior. 

Quite frankly, Christian, such assumptions would be monumentally 
ignorant.  If you choose to take this as ad hominem, you may; but
it is not intended as such.  I must admit that I was greatly offended
by your strong implication (repeated several times) that players of
SRII and AD&D (both of which I play) can be assumed munchkin, and
the tenor of my posts have reflected my offense.  For that, I apologize.

Let me sum up...

Most RPGers are munchkins.  It is completely system independent.  Just
because you haven't been to France doesn't mean it ain't there, however.
"Good gamers" (in this case, defined as "non-munchkin") can be found in
every game, I believe in equal proportion.  It so happens that you found
yours with GURPS.  I found mine with SRII.  And AD&D.  And CP2020.  And
Amber.

--
==============================================================================
| Jeff W  uk06666@ukpr.uky.edu | Meddle not in the affairs of cats, for they |
| Wilder  & wilder@mik.uky.edu | are subtle, and will piss on your cyberdeck.|
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: Nature of CP and gaming universes (was Re: ShadowRun HEROIC???)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:41:39 GMT

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>The idea is, that cyberpunk characters in general tend to be more powerful 
>than characters in other genre's, but when you realize that applies to the 
>heavy hitters and villians as well..... 
>
>"Cinematic" style, which is what we were talking about in the first place, 
>has characters be the top-of-the-ladder. Most CP characters don't even come 
>-close- to being the 'Best'.

	OK - I think I see our difference here. I don't consider that 
"cinematic" style requires that the PC's be top-of-the-ladder. They can 
be defeated, and opponents may be better than them who they defeat just 
by luck or cheating. I don't recall anything in the SR book or rules which 
says that corp expediters are worse than the runners. 
	A good example is "Raiders of the Lost Ark", which is rather 
definitively cinematic, IMO - but hero was constantly beaten up on, 
outmaneuvered, and in the end he failed to stop his opponents. 

>
>In a one-on-one, on the streets, Molly would have been coleslaw. She knew 
>this, and took the fight to somewhere she could win, a place where the 
>assassin would have so much more than her to cope with. 

	Rather parallel to the fight with the heavily muscled pilot in 
"Raiders", whom Indy defeated only by luck. 

>
>What I got irked about was SR's extensive amount of sourse material, but lack
>of depth. There's so much in, for example, Gibson's universe that we don't 
>know anything about (does the United States even exist as a political enity?),
>but it's got that depth anyway, because we know how things work and how people
>think in this world. 

	I think the only way we get to know 'how things work' is by how 
things work in the stories. If the world and history were described solely 
as a setting (as in Shadowrun), I think it would lose alot of the depth and 
'soul' you talk about. 
	Which game-worlds do you think are better than Shadowrun's? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:49:41 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1jpb3hINN5eg@titan.ucs.umass.edu>, dunkelza@titan.ucs.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
|> >In GURPS, in *any* genre, the point costs for attributes are the same! Creating
|> >Arnold Schwarzenegger will be *difficult*! It's supposed to be that way. Just
|> >like creating somebody who is *really good* at anything is difficult (in real
|> >life or in GURPS). 
|> 
|>   You can't create Arnie in a modern earth setting.

Huh?  Why not?

Oh, you can't create him with 100 points!  So what?  I can't create
LOTS of people on 100 points.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thoughts on GURPS
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:34:26 GMT
Organization: Wharton Marketing

In article <1993Jan24.103017.9919@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
>  Why does everybody always forget the extra effort?

Why don't you work it out, and figure out what ST *would* be required to 
bench 600 lbs? It may not be 40, but it's over 20 and I think it's also over 
30.

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
     There's a thin line between TQM and Mutiny
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on GURPS
Organization: Chambers of the Archmage
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 10:32:43 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Bill Seurer (seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
: In article <2B608A00.6152@ics.uci.edu>, mmadsen@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Matt Madsen) writes:
: |> The main point I think people need to understand is that, for example,
: |> while strength is less useful in a modern setting than in a medieval one,
: |> that is not reason enough to change the price.  In a mystery campaign you
: |> _shouldn't_ have body-builders running around.  It's only when some talent
: |> is less useful, but _expected_ of the characters, that it should have its
: |> price reduced.
: 
: If it is EXPECTED that the characters are to have certain talents, shouldn't
: you just give them extra points to use?

  No. The players would never put those points to something they are expected
to have. One solution might be to give them ST 14 to begin with, if
that's expected. We could create Arnie race (ST 14, HT 14, IQ 8) and the
players would have to play members of Arnie race.
-- 
Elandal		(aka Ismo Peltonen)			| Hanuripolku 5B15
home (UUCP)	elandal@archtwr.tower.NullNet.FI	| 00420 Helsinki
Univ (internet)	ipeltone@cc.Helsinki.FI			| FINLAND
data		+358-0-5072005			voice	+358-0-537515
From: mlj44080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael Lee Jacobs)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:47:22 GMT

 [ various arguments deleted for sake of brevity ]

Okay let me speak of -one- SR game I play in...
	This is set in London where the pcs were initially brought together
for a shadowrun and were payed in the form of office space and a detective
license (dont ask its complex) since then although having benn hired twice
for really minor security things (nearly 4 months real time) the characters
have been interacting with the environment and getting hosed over on their
own.  Not one PC is even remotely good at combat (the werewolf is pretty good
but only in wolf form and he doesnt like that) we have a Troll NPC around to
handle the large arms fire when needed, but my character is trying to
off him for personal reasons.  We have shops, jobs, wives, various and
sundry contacts and radical leaders who do things like hood up the shaman
with a cortex bomb (I did something real stupid and pissed off the
wrong person)  My character, for instance, has only killed one person
in all of the runs we have had and that was an accident and I _STILL_
dont know how I made the guys head explode, but that is a concearn for 
the future (yes the shaman doesnt really know a hell of alot about what
he's doing half the time) other than that if someone sticks a gun into
my nose I do a real quick fade to black or alot of whining (he's a weasel
shaman what do you expect)  We do suffer from one disease, that being
Angst-syndrome, but it certainly isnt munchinism.

	The major problem as I see it lies in Gamers vs Role-Players
(yes Virginia there is a difference) and the lack of some SR gamers to
be the later.  The problem isnt the background or the system, its in
how you play it.  I'm quite certain any munchkin could do exactly
the same thing in CyberPunk.

-- 
******  complete writers block has ensued  *******
******  check later for a more sensible sig*******

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: Re: Burn, GURPS, BURN!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:06:37 GMT

maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc Maillet) writes:


>6) If there ever was a bad way  ( BIG IMHO ) to described combat in RPGs, it
>is with hexes. Now that's something that made me close the book at once the 
>first
>time I tried to read it ( I've tried other times since then ). I positively 
>hate
>that.

Well, a lot of games use hexes. *shrug* That doesn't mean you are stuck with 
hexes. Just convert hexes to inches and play with miniatures or some sort
of marker to indicate your character. BTW..does anyone know where you can
get miniatures for a superhero campaign?

Axly

********************************************************************************
*   Axly      *  "Is Axly tough? Yes. Talented? Yes. Brave? Oh, certainly.     *
* Red Sword   *   He is also erratic, irresponsible, accident-prone, and a     *
*   Targa     *   constant threat to public safety. The trick is to keep him   *
*             *   pointed in the right direction. "                            *
*             *         -Niki                                                  *
********************************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: silber@cs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Random Rolls
Organization: Dept. of Computer Sci - University of Illinois
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:14:11 GMT


In article <1993Jan22.220046.1900@news.vanderbilt.edu> talbert@athena.cas.vander
bilt.edu (Robert Talbert) writes:
>In article <1993Jan22.163503.7783@news.tufts.edu> gharris@jade.tufts.edu (Georg
e W. Harris) writes:
>	Yes, there has to be some effort made to improve, but character points
>are not a good way of measuring this effort.  For instance, suppose our Group of
>
>Hardy Adventurers (tm) is setting out on an Adventure (tm).  Now, one of these
>Hardy Adventurers has taken the Poor disadvantage.  When our group returns from
>their adventure, they have each gained 6 million zorkmids, and some small number
>
>of character points.  Now, while everyone else is using their character points 
to improve their skills, our poor Poor friend must use his to buy off his dis-
>advantage.  So, he can't learn any skills because he used to be poor?
>
>	Much more sensible is a method whereby skills improve through use or
>training, and if a character does something to get rid of a disadvantage, like,
>say, our poor Poor friend above, or a cripple who gives 10,000 Semolyans to a

Or, on the other hand, you could assume that "poor" also refers to a 
persons ability to hang on to money. The "poor" character ends up investing
5,999,000 zorkmids in a plan to sell fried basilisk to the trolls, and ends
up broke as before.

.
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu
From: maillet@tls-cs.cert.fr (Luc Maillet)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Price$$$...
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:35:33 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: CERT, CS Dpt. Toulouse, France

In article <1993Jan20.205132.10084@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, flindholm@mta.ca writes:
|> In article <1ji7j7INNppe@shelley.u.washington.edu>, mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
|> >I was really peeved by the layout of the Street Samurai Catalog (one 
|> >item per page, huge amounts of unnecessary decoration and white space) 
|> >and will never buy anything with that format again (FASA, are you 
|> >listening?)
|> 
|>      Another FASA supplement with that problem is the Rigger Blackbook. 
|> The art for the vehicles for the most part does not compare with the main
|> book and since most vehicles have a page to themselves there is again the
|> massive amount of wasted white space. Quality not Quantity!

  Even better : both. "Thou shalt accept no less."

								Redwing
From: thornley@milli.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Random Roll Question :-)
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:18:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: news2.C1DpyF.5r8
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <19931@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>mudge@titan.ucs.umass.edu (A Happy Otter) writes:
>
>> On a personal level though I find that it is a bit unrealistic to have a
>> group that starts out with the same potential for similar stats. In my
>> generally cynical view this seems a little bit unrealistic.
>
>I suppose it means that character groups in point-allocation systems form a
>very tiny section of groups in a world: the groups where everyone just
>happened to be more or less equal.
>
>I suppose this also means that "balanced characters" point allocation is much
>more restrictive than random generation, since it is limited to a very small
>subset of possible groups.
>
More restrictive in terms of what characters you can wind up with; less
restrictive for the players.

>Of course, point allocators could simply roll for their starting points.
>O:-)
>
SPI did that in its RPGs; you rolled a die and looked up how many points
you got and how specialized you could be with them.  Universe and Dragon-
quest both had hybrid character creation systems.

Another possibility is to enhance characters randomly once created.  Have
your GURPS players design characters 20-25 points weaker than you want
for starting characters.  Then, give them 3D6 points to spend on skills
and spells, 5/10/15 points (determined randomly) for advantages, and
raise a random attribute by 1.  Maybe give them 1D6 of points for skills
that must be entirely irrelevant to the character's chosen profession,
or select a skill or skills to receive these points randomly.  This should
leave the players with characters they can live with, that won't be all
the same point value, and will give them a few random oddities to build
a character off.

DHT
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: slip@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Doolie)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:22:06 GMT

In article <1jubsrINN4k2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>In article <C1CMt9.1q5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>>cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:

Most of article deleted.

>>>And this brings up my other gripe about Shadowrun; it's almost all $#@! combat
>>>or military-style crap. Extractions, assaults, thefts, it's all violent and
>>>it gets -OLD- fast. The character creation system is munchkin in the -extreme-,
>>>and it's flat-out impossible to integrate some character types and 
>>>personalities into an SR campaign, because the whole thing's based around 
>>>military-style operations. It's dungeon-crawling, except the dungeons are above
>>>ground and the orcs are called 'Security Guards'.....
>>Huh? The system has no bearing on what you have the characters do. If you 
>>don't like SR adventures by FASA, write your own stuff where you do things
>>that you find interesting. This sounds more like a bitch about one 
>>particular campaign than a constructive comment about a game system.
>
><ahem> This isn't the system I'm bitching about here. It's the background and
>the attitude of the game itself, an attitude which is shared by a lot of SR's
>players. 
>
>I haven't heard of an SR campaign yet that isn't seriously combat-intensive, 
>and which doesn't deal with that bastard plot device, having the characters get
>hired to go blow away someone/steal something/extract someone/etc etc. It's 
>barely an RPG in my book, closer to a &#@! tactical simulation. 
>

To be fair, I _Have_ seen Srun groups with this problem, along with ADnD, 
Gurps, Champions, Hero, Vampire, and Star Wars campaigns (I wont even BEGIN 
to talk about Twighlight 2000).  I have however also seen groups in ALL of the
above systems which de-emphasised combat and had very good roleplaying (Yes,
even ADnD). For an example in Shadowrun, I have just joined a group which,
during the entire session (I was watching while generating a character), the
group was occupied with information-gathering and roleplaying. The only combat
was a minor scuffle in the beginning (And this was due to a player's
insanely jealous ex-SO trying to off him).  And that scuffle wasnt even
taken care of by the characters - the bouncer took care of it.
 
-- 
* Gordon Emore	          *   <Place nifty quote here>      *
* slip@sage.cc.purdue.edu *   < Or maybe not >              *
From: nds@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Neil Stevenson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: SALES
Keywords: sales
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:04:11 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

the virgin megastores have a sale on at the moment. I got a book for almost half
price (Ars Magica The Pact of P(something))
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
From: elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on GURPS
Organization: Chambers of the Archmage
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:17:53 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Loren Miller (loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan24.103017.9919@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
: >  Why does everybody always forget the extra effort?
: 
: Why don't you work it out, and figure out what ST *would* be required to 
: bench 600 lbs? It may not be 40, but it's over 20 and I think it's also over 
: 30.

  OK. All rules needed are on page 89 of Basic Set (3rd ed).

Two-handed Lift : 25*ST

Extra Effort : This is a little harder. One has to roll for it..
If we say it's not every time but the chances are 50% (roll 10 or less)
it's quite little. ST 16 means 50% chance for 640 lbs (16*25=400,
400*1.6=640).
If the chances are 90% (14 or less) the ST needed is 18 (18*25=450,
450*1.4=630).

40? 30? With ST 20 one can lift 500 pounds WITHOUT extra effort..

: --
: +++++++++++++++++++++++23
: Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
:      There's a thin line between TQM and Mutiny
-- 
Elandal		(aka Ismo Peltonen)			| Hanuripolku 5B15
home (UUCP)	elandal@archtwr.tower.NullNet.FI	| 00420 Helsinki
Univ (internet)	ipeltone@cc.Helsinki.FI			| FINLAND
data		+358-0-5072005			voice	+358-0-537515
From: kogoma@triton.unm.edu (Taki Kogoma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 27 Jan 1993 01:36:58 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon
NNTP-Posting-Host: triton.unm.edu

In article <2524@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>In article <1k245tINNkdf@lynx.unm.edu> kogoma@triton.unm.edu (Taki Kogoma) writes:
>>In article <2464@blue.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:
>>>	Blame THAT one not on the system, nor on the players, but on the 
>>>GM. That kind of thing is just flat out STUPID. 
>
>>I'd like to suggest that the venomous jellyfish keep this statement in
>>mind the next time he rants about GURPS...
>
>	I do. That's why I rant about GURPS. Nothing can save the system.

That's odd.  Every time I read your tirades about GURPS (my game of
preference), I see you backing it up with the behavior of one or two
gameing groups that you've observed/participated in, and ignoring the
multitudinous voices here on the net who say that it isn't so in
their neck of the woods.

Sounds like you're judging the system by the players to me.

>	(You want REASONABLE and CONSIDERED discussion? We don't DO
>that, this is .advocacy!)

Ok, you snivelling heroic-level-only powergaming idjit! ;-)

-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  kogoma@triton.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
From: slouie@ocf.berkeley.edu (Shelley Louie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Price$$$...
Date: 21 Jan 1993 07:51:24 GMT
Organization: Bat Radar Studies, U. C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: monsoon.berkeley.edu

> JNEPHEW@CARLETON.EDU writes:
>
>What do people think of small (16, 32 page) items versus large (96+) items?  Do
>you favor the latter?  (Sales figures suggest people do.)  Why?

Why not do it both ways?  Come out with the small items and then once you get
a few of those produced, sell a bundled package of 3-4 of them together. It'll
probably cut down on your overall inventory if you still have any unsold 
copies and people who might have bypassed the "singles" might buy the "album".

Such a deal!

-Shelley Louie
"I know how we can save the cows! We'll teach them to surf!" 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy