From: amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind)
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:56:00 GMT

(Stephen R Lee) writes:
>(Stormwind) writes:
>>you miss the point.  the idea here is not to
>>"put the wolf in the backyard".  hybrids, like
>>a wide number of other dog breeds, are a cross
>>between animals.  many people have the misconception
>>that crossbreeds will always pick up the worst
>>attributes of the more vicious of the two being
>>crossbred.  for instance, a pit bull cross bred
>>with a golden retriever will be looked askance
>>at because it might contain "pit bull temperment".
>>this is a common public misconception stemming
>>entirely from ignorance.
>
>I was speaking figuritively, of course.  People see "White Fang" and
>decide that it would be neat to have a wolf in their backyard.  I am
>not talking about "expert WH" owner here.  I am talking about Joe public.

this is a very important distinction, and one
that needs to be stressed while talking large
animals.  the average idiot will run into problems
with ANY large animal if he thinks it would
be "neat" and stops thinking beyond that point.
hybrids are absolutely NOT unique in this instance.
this is a VERY important distinction that few 
people make.

in short, stupid and/or irresponsible people
shouldn't own pets.  i once heard of a man
who kept a saint bernard in a one bedroom 
apartment with no yard, and let it out at night
to relieve itself in the street.  THAT is cruelty.

>I agree.  I am not objecting because I think wolf hybrids
>are vicious killers.  I think they are a bad idea for *other* reasons.

would you care to elucidate on these reasons?

>>again, you miss the point.  hybrid owners 
>>are interested in more intelligent animals 
>>because they are interested in a companion
>>rather than bric-a-brac dumb pets.  why 
>>choose a dog over a hamster?  dogs are more
>>intelligent than hamsters.  why choose a hybrid
>>over a dog?  hybrids are more intelligent than
>>many dogs.  and from personal experience, 
>>hybrids are MORE than capable of thinking up
>>stuff to challenge them in the average backyard.
>
>No, I don't think I have missed the point.  You deleted the section in which
>I mention the brain size of dogs v.s. wolves.  I will repeat it again.  The
>brains in our domesticated dogs are smaller as a result of domestication.  

i am not an expert on the ratio of brain size
as it affects the ability of an animal to survive,
so i am not in any situation to address brain
size.  tyrannasaurous rex springs to mind as
a contradiction, however.

>I
>felt, and feel, that this is due to the fact that our domesticated dogs do
>not have to rely on their wits to survive.  

i DO know that i have had experience with
feral dogs who survived quite well, thank you,
and i don't believe that their brain size increased
any due to the experience.

>Does that mean that they are "dumber"
>than wolves?  I don't know.  How do you define "smart" and "dumb" in another
>species?  The point I am trying to make is that the WH might not get to use
>this "higher intelligence" in someones backyard.  How can it?  

easily.  ours figured out how to communiate with
us on a reliable basis.  there is one particular incident
involving an empty water bucket that left absolutely
zero doubt in our mind that not only did triss know
perfectly well who provided the water, but how to 
summon us to the window, and how to demonstrate
to us that her water bucket was empty and she wanted
it filled.  then there were the many times that we caught
her trying to do the same things she watched her owners
do...specifically, standing on her hind legs and wrapping
both paws around the doorknob in an effort to open the 
door and explore the inside of the house.

humans are expert at using their intelligence to 
create things to play with, things to do, and figuring
out how to get from point a to point b.  hybrids have
the exact same capability.

>We have domesticated the dog and aquired a
>variety of breeds that are remarkably good at different things.  Pulling
>sleds, retreiving game, and so on.  They certainly cannot survive as well
>(some not at all) in the wild without our help, and a WH probably could.

i beg to differ.  there are hundreds, if not 
hundreds of thousands, of examples of dogs
gone feral who survive perfectly fine in the 
wild.  a significant factor for surviving in the
wild is the *physical* attributes of the animal
rather than cranial capacity.  a dachshund,
for example, would probably have a tougher 
time surviving than would a german shepard.
short legs and short coat aren't well suited for
survival.  a pekingese would probably have
an *extremely* tough time surviving due to 
the nature of its coat.  a basenji wouldn't have
much trouble at all, provided it didn't get too 
cold.

>>all wolves are what?  nervous?  hardly.
>>i use the word "exciteable" rather than "nervous",
>
>I agree.  I was using the original authors words.  Wolves are "exciteable" by
>necessity.

any feral animal is exciteable.   two feral dogs
chased and nearly brought down a jogger at
a local college some years back.  any wild animal
appears "skittish" because it is trying to survive.
on the other hand, hybrids, german shepards,
and a variety of other animals tend to be "exciteable"
depending on the situation.  triss hated fire crackers
and the fourth of july.  she would flat refuse to come
out of the garage with all the noise going on.  on
the other hand, she could become *extremely*
boisterous while wrestling on the lawn.

>>you never know what *behavioural* traits you're
>>going to get when you breed.  it varies.  many of
>>them turn out to be learned behaviour.
>
>This is a problem, then, is'nt it?  How do you know what behavioural characteristics
>you will inherit from the wolf when you breed it to a dog?

once again, you don't.  my correspondance with
other hybrid owners indicates a long list of common
behavioural characteristics, very few of which either
myself or other hybrid owners have found to be
"dangerous" in any way.   many behaviourisms appear
to be learned; others would seem to indicate some 
sort of genetic memory.

>Indeed, the hybrid has traits of *both* species, but how "much" of which trait?

this, as with all animals, may vary from animal
to animal.  it's part of what makes up personality.
i've heard from at least two hybrid owners that
their hybrids, when left alone with no one at the 
house for the weekend, succeeded in completely
chewing up and destroying the interior of the
garage.  ours only went so far as to chew off the
corner of the garage stairs and the corner of our
shed, and even stopped digging dens after being
spayed.

>>one reason for this is that the general public
>>has this very nasty habit of, again, fixating
>>on the mistaken impression that the animal
>>is "bad" because it has "bad blood", in this case,
>>because it is "a wolf".  
>
>My point *exactly*.

that impression is incorrect. 

>>so, which breeds shall we now outlaw?  i
>>suggest instead that rather than breeding
>>MORE stupidity by restricting or outlawing
>>types of animals, that the public be EDUCATED.
>
>Breeding more stupidity?  I can't take an engine apart and put one back together
>again.  Does that make me less intelligent than my mechanic?  My mechanic does
>not understand quantum mechanics.  Does that make me smarter than my mechanic?
>No, in both cases, or a yes, when phrased "my mechanic is smarter than I am 
>when it comes to engines."  

no no no.  if you protect humans from themselves,
you cause them to lose the concept of responsibility
and you train them to be stupid and irresponsible.
that's part of the reason we have problems with
idiots who think pit bulls are macho, and raise
them to be vicious animals.

case in point: i'm waiting for the results that 
show that people who drive cars that turn off
their lights automatically have a higher rate
of draining their battery in a car not so equipped.

>Will a wolf hybrid herd sheep?  Retreive game?

if you train it to do so, yes.

>Will a cat? 

if you train it do so, yes.  i knew a cat
once that would fetch objects on command.

> Therefore, I suppose if you want an animal that would be very good
>at fending for itself and surviving in the wild, then a WH is for you.  If you
>want an animal that is very intelligent when "calculating" exactly where the
>ball will touch down so he/she can run under it and catch it, then get a retriever.

i completely and totally disagree.  you seem
to think that hybrids come "pre-programmed"
to survive in the wild.  unless they have been
raised in the wild, they are no more prepared 
to survive in the wild than any other dog.  somewhat
better equipped in terms of fur and claws, perhaps,
but certainly not trained.

>I think you have missed my point.  I am not suggesting that WH be outlawed.  I am
>saying that I think they are a bad idea, and I would hope that others will
>weigh the evidence before making a decision and decide against owning one.  

a hybrid would quite possibly be a bad idea for
you, and i know that one would be a bad idea
for a large portion of the lazy general public.

HOWEVER, saying they are a bad idea in 
general furthers the idea that hybrids are
"bad", due to their heritage.  this is blatantly 
wrong.

>I
>still think it is a matter of personal choice.  My remarks imply that
>       1. They hurt the public's perception of wild wolves

they CAN hurt the public's perception IF
the public is utterly misinformed as to the
differences vis a vis a hybrid and a wolf
and IF the hybrid in question has gotten into
some kind of trouble.

>       2. The can tarnish the reputation of some very fine working dogs

i believe this to be utter nonsense.  does the 
pit bull tarnish the name of the bulldog, whom
it vaguely resembles?  huskies and hybrids
for the most part don't look anything alike.

the whole problem with idiotic ignoramuses 
having problems with hybrids could well be
addressed by a certified training program 
required for ownership of hybrids.  this takes
a significant step towards eliminating the lazy,
the stupid, and the irresponsible people.  i would
back such a program being put into place in
order to ensure that hybrids aren't outlawed
across the board, as they already are in many
states.

				stormwind

				hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves