From: SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: re: Gay teens, suicide, and Christianity
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:32:42 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
In article <1992Apr14.180802.9353@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> writes:

(This is a small excerpt from Mr. Arromdee's article, essentially
 he feels that my characterization of the Christian Old Testament/
 Hebrew scriptures is anti-Jewish and would incite the killing
 of Jews.)

>>The Hebrew scriptures are used by the Christians as a basic component
>>of their tradition, and these writings pile book upon book as grim,
>>bloodthirsty and arrogant as the heroes of any Rambo-type flick.

>So blame the _Christians_ for that.  Not the Jews.

Indeed the Christians are responsible for incorporting this literature
into their canon and for any particularly Christian interpretations
of it, however as the scriptures of the Jews this material
antedates the beginnings of Christianity and is a part of the
the Jewish religious tradition as well as the Christian.

The content and tone are clearly the responsibilty of persons long
since dead, the fact that at this point in time that the gruesome
events, the slaughters, butchery, etc. are considered laudable
events inspired by a deity and worthy of praise is the fault of
those who _now_ in_ the_ present_ take this point of view.  As is the
application of _any_ of the brutal mentality in either the Jewish
scriptures or the Christian New Testament the responsibility of those
who apply it now.

>>Check into soc.culture.jewish and you will find recurring discussions
>>of homosexuality, plenty of homophobia and citations from the
>>Jewish scriptures galore.  Not one whit different than what goes
>>down in talk.religion.misc or soc.culture.christian.

>Apparently you have never checked out soc.culture.jewish.

I do read it, otherwise I would not have made the reference I did.

>What you actually _said_ was that since Christian parents
>nearly drove you to suicide, therefore Jews are bloodthirsty.

No, I said nothing even close to that.

I have characterized the content of the Jewish scripture, the Christian
Old Testament, in a manner that you find distasteful.  (You might
take a breath long enough to realize that it is quite clear that I
find no improvement in the Christian New Testament.)

I am not responsible for the myths, legendary histories, law codes,
tribal histories, religious songs, inspirational texts, etc.
which comprise the scriptures held used in common by the Jews and
Christians.

A considerable part of these works exalts in savage tribal gore and
glorifies it as ordained by a deity.  That this was the prevailing
mentality two or three thousand years ago does not phase me.  That
it should _still_ be exalted and passed on to the generations (of
Christians and Jews) is monstrous.  No wonder we continue to butcher
each other over manners of dress, language, religion, etc.  That
is exactly what this literature teaches.

Certainly there are parts of the common scriptures as well as part of
the New Testament which can furnish a kinder, loving guide for conduct.
But it seems that both the Christian and Jewish religions cling
lovingly to what is bestial and intolerant considering it "inspired".

Is it any wonder that what goes out comes around.

I think the blood and gore of both the shared scriptures and those
exclusively Christian stinks.  It is obscene to use this hate-filled
material as an inspiration for ethical conduct.

>>Some of us still remember the
>>last time people said Jews were bloodthirsty.

Perhaps if both the Jewish and Christian traditions would stop
venerating those parts of their heritage which are blood-thirsty
and vengeful -- throw it out of the churches and synagogues --
there might be less genocide, less racism, less bashing.

My position is that those persons -- Jewish or Christian -- who
cling these bloodthirsty, intolerant parts of ancient writings
should not be trusted to act in a compassionate, tolerant manner.
The example which began this thread was homosexuality -- this
is little more than a detail in the entire panorama of violence
which is venerated as holy by many Christians and Jews.

Jack Carroll
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc