HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Not Just For The Dead Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: All right, let's settle Stathead vs. Intangiblehead FOR GOOD.
Summary: The OLD-FASHIONED way.
Keywords: Duel, Honor, Hot Fudge Lundy, NuKid [tm]. Steerific...
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:09:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Lance Smith Tastee Freezes, Inc.

Well, I've managed to stay out of the "Value of Stats" thread for a
long time, despite the last goading attempt of Roger Maynard, who
apparently is my biggest fan. (Smooches your way, Rog!)

At any rate...

I didn't enter this because I figured no one would listen, and
anything I would say would probably be better phrased by Lustig, Tate,
and Nichols, with varying degrees of heat applied.  Close enough.

Anyway...  I have a way to resolve the ever-present stats debate, in a
fashion that we all can support.

How about a stathead softball game?  Pro-Stat versus anti-stat, nine
innings of slow pitch, losers shut up forever on the topic.  

With this in mind, I propose the following lineup:

		    Ft. Lauderdale Steamrolling Statheads
		    -------------------------------------
		    C   Ted "Pudge" Fischer/Valentine (platoon)
		    1B  Harold "Le Grande Chat" Brooks
		    2B  David "Maz" Tate
		    3B  "Carney" Kirsch
		    SS  Mann 'E' Spira
		    LF  "Barry" Grabiner
		    CF  Kurt Bose "Junior"
		    RF  "Huggy" Huckabay
		    DH  "Jorge" Nichols (Under protest)

		    SP  "Rocket" Roger Lustig
		    SP  Lance "Looks Like Zane" Smith
		    SP  Nelson "Kiss My Purple Ass" Lu

		    RP  Joe "Ted" Lundy
		    RP  Dennis "Eckersley" Cleary

		    Legal Counsel: Ted "Shyster" Frank

That's our team, lads.  Ok, D. Johnson and Crew - let's see who you
have to face THIS bunch.  Our team mascot shall be Paul Andresen,
dressed in Newtonian Garb.  (Caps for a reason.)

Our manager, because of compromising photos, shall be Mr. SDCN
himself, David "The Lip" Thornley.

Phftwahf.

(Sound of gauntlet hitting floor.)

-- 
*    Gary Huckabay    * "But I worked so hard just to keep...             *
*                     *  This Treasure Chest of trash." - J. Gaskill.     *
*    "Lundy, Mate!"   * "For *YOU*, I'd recommend Sony." - G. Huckabay.   *
*                     * "You didn't used to be able to aim." - R. Brown.  *
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mattel@auto-trol.com (Matt Telles)
Subject: Re: Another 'Fundamental' Loss the NYM
Organization: Auto-trol
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:23:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.152424.15933@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> dick1@hera.uucp (25443-vaughn) writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.040927.26075@afit.af.mil>, cscott@csc.afit.af.mil writes:
>
>> What's the real story in New York?  Are there any moves being discussed? Is 
>> the team up for sale?  (Who knows, maybe new ownership could help!)  Is 
>> Torborg's job in danger yet?  
>
>There have been small adjustments: Mackey Sasser's playing more,

You can call this what you like.  I think Sasser could happily be traded for a
used water-cooler..  Of course, if he ever learns how to throw the ball back
again, I retract that statement.

>Willie Randolph's playing less, HoJo played left for awhile,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 This is mostly due to injury and age, but I'm not sure it's that good a thing.
Whenever Randolph is *not* playing, they put Chico (gag) Walker in a second.  I
have nothing against Walker specifically, but the man is an OUTFIELDER!

>but the sentiment (with which I agree) seems to be that (more)
>major moves is not what this team needs.

I agree as well.

>
>The Gooden re-injury didn't help, but Saberhagen's due back tonight,

Yeah.  People seem to be downplaying this, but I think it may very well be the
thing to get them started.  If Bret pitches well tonight, you may see the
Metsies really start playing again.

>and Coleman (whose return could be huge) is due back soon.

No doubt about that either.  Coleman may not be stealing bases, but he *is*
getting on base.  Although I don't see the Mets resigning him when his contract
runs out (if for no other reason than the injuries) I would like to see him in
there this year...

>And the Pirates *are* only six games ahead.  Although, with the way the
>Mets are hitting, it might as well be sixty.

I don't think so.  Let's wait and see....


>
>As ever: We Shall See.
>
>

Hey!  That's *my* line! :)

Matt

-- 
==============================================================================
Matt Telles 	                 mattel@auto-trol.COM
                                 {...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!mattel
Auto-trol Technology 12500 N Washington Denver, CO 80241-2404 (303)252-2874
From: jm0i@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSEPH ALOYSIUS MCVEIGH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cone threw how many pitches?
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:48:11 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <3488@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>,
rrmst3+@pitt.edu (Roberto R Molinari) writes:
>While watching some of the Dodgers/Mets game tonite I remembered something
>I heard a day or so ago, but I just can't believe is true.  According to the
>some announcers (I can't remember who since I don't remember which game I was
>watching at the time), David Cone threw *166* pitches in his start last week.
>Can anyone confirm/deny this?

Confirmed by the New York Times, Tuesday edition. Give him the Charles "Old
Hoss" Radbourne Award for 1992. And Mets fans everywhere are quaking; one bad
rotator cuff is enough.
                                                    - JAM
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Aloysius McVeigh  | "The winning vision - it won three presidential
       "N.I.N.A."        |  elections in a row - still lies in...the classical
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=|  formula for economic growth: low taxes, sound
"Wall St. Journal", 7/22 |  money, and deregulation."      - Robert L. Bartley
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: brian@meaddata.com (Brian Curran)
Subject: Re: Astros' schedule
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:42:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.164749.15410@dale.ksc.nasa.gov>, jmarin@hobbes (Jose A. Marin) writes:
|> Does anyone know if the Astros will be playing at home on Sunday July 26?
|> I will be in Houston that day and I would like to watch a game if
|> possible.

The Astros are at home against the Chicago Cubs on Sunday afternoon, July 26.
This will be the last Astros home game before THE ROAD TRIP ends on August
25th.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Curran                 Mead Data Central              brian@meaddata.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot.
 Show me a sportsman and I'll show you a player I'm looking to trade."
                                  - Leo Durocher, manager
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: AMATEUR: Miskatonic Pods Update....The Host with the Most is back!
Keywords: Schlage, Master, American, Yale.
Date: 24 Jul 92 05:24:02 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <15452@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Electric Pancreas Huckabay) writes:

>Next game is a sure loss, as we'll be facing
>former major league pitcher Bob Owchinko, I assume.  (The pitcher is
>listed as B. Owchinko, and how many of those can there be?)

>And even though Bob Owchinko was a lousy major league pitcher, he's
>more than enough to dust a power and walks based offense in the SVBL.

Yowch.  Let's see, Owchinko would be 37 years old now.  Lifetime ERA in the
majors of 4.29, batting average of .135.  That gives him SVBL equivalencies
of, say, 0.88 ERA and .672 batting average, right? :-)

(But, of course, that was 6 years ago.  By now he's probably no better than
 1.50, .450 ... )


-- 
        David Tate         |  "Complacencies of the fungo, and late 
  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   Infield and B.P. in a sunny field
     "Sunday Afternoon"    |   [...]         mingle to dissipate
  Wallace "Vern" Stevens   |   The holy hush of Pastime National..."
From: boell@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Donald P Boell)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:40:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Braves Fans (No Flames)
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

The only flames are the ones on all the smokes the Reds owner (Marge?) has
consumed over the last couple weeks.  Must be up to a carton a day at this
point.  Go Braves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: vaps0de@prism.gatech.EDU (Dustin Emhart)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: minor leage info
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:58:26 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <1992Jul21.223054.8692@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

>There have been instances of the owner of a major league team also owning a
>minor league team (I don't think any currently do, though I believe the
>Tribune Company is trying to buy the Orlando team).  Basically, though, a
>minor league owner signs a Player Development Contract with a major league
>team.  The major league team provides the players, managers, and coaches,
>and pays their salaries.  The major league team also pays the minor league
>team a certain amount of money. 

I thought there were a fair amount of minor league teams owned by major league
teams, at least as of a few years ago. I haven't bought a _Green Book_ since
I've been at college, but the list of minor-league teams was split fairly
evenly between teams owned by the major league club and teams who had signed
a PDC when I last checked.
-- 
Dustin Emhart                       |  CS Majors: We do more after 11 pm than
Georgia Institute of Technology     |  most people do all day.
Internet: vaps0de@prism.gatech.edu  |        -- me
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Re: Carry-isms (was Re: Shoot Harry)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:32:20 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.061114.4175@menudo.uh.edu> st1ge@Elroy.UH.EDU writes:
>        When I lived in Indiana I used to watch Cubs games quite often,
>though I'm not a Cub fan.  What bothers me the most is that every time
>an opposing pitcher pitch just a little bit inside to a Cub batter,
>Harry will say "almost hit him!".  It's so ridiculous.  I'm glad that
>my cable company does not offer me WGN now.


	To Harry, looking through those goggles of his, those pitches
	probably look like they almost hit the batter...

	What's worse is listening to Ron Santo claim that "the pitch
	was 6 inches outside" every single time a Cub batter is called
	out on strikes...

-- 
-------------------------------
| Randy Peppler               |
| Illinois State Water Survey |
| peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu    |
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Any info on Tim Salmon?
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:20:13 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of New Mexico

In article <1992Jul25.052357.11653@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>> So what can we expect from Salmon? Can he become a super player, or
>>will he end up as a Randy Ready?
>
>His MLEs from Midland last year come out to .200/.278/.358.
>
>So far this year, he is hitting .367/.475/.682 in the PCL in 318 AB.
>
I used those numbers and fiddled with the MLE system, and got the following
line, pro-rated to 600 PA:
AB  R   H  D  T HR RBI W BA   OBP  SLG
528 87 163 46 4 22 96 72 .309 .392 .536

My estimate for wat a "typical" year would be is .265/.346/.465, for a .811 OPS.
This reflects not only the super year he's having now, but the rotten season he had last year.  And he's only 23.  He looks good...


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) - kbos@carina.unm.edu - I'm not the AntiChrist
I AM a Junior Stathead.  Flame me; it's fun!  I'm a shutmouthed, selfless idiot!
Latest Attempted Compiler of the R.S.BB FAQ - Now Accepting Submissions...(hint)
Have you hugged a Dan Gladden fan today? - Dave Rossing : .456/39/132 at Denver!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca (Phill St. Louis)
Subject: Jay mailing list?
Originator: stlouis@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:14:42 GMT

Has anyone set up a Blue Jays mailing list?  I am looking at Kurt Bose's
FAQ work and have seen this question asked many times and I have not yet
seen an answer.  If one does not exist, I will have no problem setting one
up here.  Just send me your request to join.

Phill
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hymowitz@whatever.cs.jhu.edu (Hymie!)
Subject: Re: More quiz questions
Organization: Creative Sensualities dept, Jacquie's House of Underwear
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 06:14:09 GMT

magyar@hss.caltech.edu (Ted Turo'cy) writes:
[from a post with some trivia questions]
>2.  Bases loaded, batter hits ball over CF fence, but no runs score.
>
>Assume two are out.  If the runner on 2nd overtakes the runner on 3rd
>before the runner on 3rd crosses the plate, the runner on 2nd is declared
>out.  Since this is the third out, and it took place before the runner on
>3rd crossed the plate, no runs count.

interesting scenario, tho perhaps a bit forced - you would pretty much need
vince coleman on second and the deceased ferdinand marcos on third to pull
this one off.

i believe the original question said that no *men* score.  it was a women's
game.

--hymie
hymowitz@cs.jhu.edu                                         hymie@jhuvms.bitnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't care what others say.  They say we don't listen anyway.
--Chambers Brothers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: AL MLV leaders through 7/26
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:07:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

Here are the current AL leaders in Total Marginal Runs.  For a description
of TMR and marginal lineup values in general, see the accompanying article
on national league leaders.

   Player		MR/G	 TMR

1. Frank Thomas		.343	33.74
2. Edgar Martinez	.325	29.98
3. Kirby Puckett	.284	27.87
4. Mark McGwire		.292	27.46
5. Dave Winfield	.242	23.28
6. Paul Molitor		.227	21.50
7. Brady Anderson	.202	21.23
8. Ken Griffey, Jr.	.261	21.28
9. Roberto Alomar	.225	20.63
10. Shane Mack		.204	19.83
11. Carlos Baerga	.169	16.54
12. Tony Phillips	.146	14.84
13. John Olerud		.175	13.65
14. Lou Whitaker	.181	13.45
15. Kent Hrbek		.170	12.85
16. Danny Tartabull	.163	12.41
17. Chili Davis		.154	12.16
18. Mickey Tettleton	.125	12.13
19. Kevin Reimer!?	.143	11.82
20. Joe Carter		.118	11.45
.
.
.
45. Cecil Fielder	.018	 1.70
.
.
.
50. Wally Joyner	.003	 0.23
51. Jay Buhner	       -.007	-0.64
.
.
.
76. Gary DiSarcina     -.168	-12.6
77. Milt Cuyler	       -.190	-13.7
78. Gary Gaetti	       -.185	-14.0
79. Steve Sax	       -.182	-15.8
80. Brian McRae	       -.171	-15.8

Comments:

Brian Downing, had he but time enough, and PA's, would be high on the list.

Kevin Reimer???

Cecil Fielder ranks fifth on the Tigers, behind Phillips, Whitaker, Tettleton,
and Fryman.  Given that all four of those players play tougher defensive
positions and run the bases better, I don't see how anyone could possibly
think that Cecil is the Tigers' MVP, or an all-star.

John Olerud is doing just fine, thank you.

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 22:25:03 GMT


In article <3814@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> rrmst3+@pitt.edu (Roberto R  
Molinari) writes: 
> Okay, so maybe the Bonds thing was a bad example, but what about my earlier
> scenario where Frank Thomas breaks Jack McDowell's arm?  Youd didn't  
address

How do we know that it wasn't Jack's fault?
Maybe Frank was just defending himself.

Even so, how extreme do we need to go before a difference is made?
This scenario seems a little rare. 
If we're going to worry about these we might also worry about the fact
that some players play in crime-ridden areas and are more likely to get shot.  
Are we going to have to worry about this too?
Or have I just missed the point?

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
John Jaha thru 7/19:  BA .240   OPS .462 (argh!!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: RC/27 for CFs
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:41:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.031352.19852@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>Mike, give us a break.  Puckett has clearly been one of the top offensive
>performers in the game this year (even after park effects are taken into
>account).  But you can't judge how good an offensive player Puckett is
>based just on how he has performed this year.  You have to take his performance
>over the last few years into account (including this year), and use that to
>judge exactly what kind of player Puckett is.  And, under those guidelines,
>there is no way that Puckett is one of the best offensive performers in the 
>game.        

He has had 3 other years on a par with (or slightly better than) this year,
so I'd have to say he ain't bad at all.

>And once again, no one in the Bonilla thread really claimed that Bonilla
>was on of the top offensive players in the game.  All that was said is that
>his offensive performance in the first half was on of the top 5 offensive
>performances by NL outfielders in the first half.  But I would certainly
>argue that he's a better offensive player than Puckett, even though Puckett
>has outperformed him so far this year (though when you take into account
>park effects, its pretty close).

It's close after parks effects? Their OBP is about the same, and Bonilla's
SLG is 100 points below Puckett's. Elias lists the 'Dome effect as +5% and Shea
as -5%. Close? If Puckett goes into a prolonged slump and Bonilla goes on a 
tear, yeah, it'll BE close. Right now, it ain't.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:06:12 GMT

In article <BrspAJ.9rF@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:
>In article <BrrqEL.3K7@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>[Discussion about (R+RBI)/(Team runs scored) as measure of player deleted]
>> 
>>In most lineups a player is going to be used where he can best help his
>>team score runs.  Whether this is at the start of the lineup if the play has
>>high on base percentage or in the middle of the order if he has some power.
>>This stat shows how effective the player was in helping the team produce
>>runs.  If you wish this may be more effective to compare leadoff hitters
>>with others leadoff hitters and cleanup hitters with other cleanup hitters
>>etc. and i never said it was the perfect stat but RBI's and Runs depend
>>too much on the players hitting around him.  If you have improvements I
>>would love to hear them but if you just want to try and explain why it
>>isn't a good stat without improving it or giving suggestions on how to 
>>improve it then just say you don't like it and leave the discussion about
>>it.
>
>You aren't going to love to hear this, but I don't understand how you can
>take two numbers that "depend too much on the players hitting around him"
>and convolve them in any way to produce something that doesn't depend
>on the players around him...

But if the players around him don't give him the opportunities to drive
in more runs and don't knock him in then the total teams runs will not
be as high as well.  Thus a player on a team who is less productive can
be compared to a player on a team which is very productive.  

>...To improve it, I wouldn't use Runs and RBIs,
>but then you wouldn't have anything left.  As it is, the no. 3 and 4 
>hitters in any (rational) batting order will probably rank high in what
>you come up with, followed by 2 and 5, and 1 and 6.  

On most teams isn't the number 3 and 4 guys good RBI men who knock in
the number 1 and 2 guys who get on base a lot.  By this theory the number
1 and 2 guys score a lot due to high on base percentage and thus increasing
his ranking while the 3 and 4 guys knock him increasing his ranking as well.
By giving guys who hit in number 1-5 slots a higher ranking a good idea
because they are better players (Either Sluggers or people who get on base
a lot) as compared to hiters in 6-9 slots.  Do you ever wonder why Pat
Borders and Manny Lee hit 8 and 9.  It is because they are not a good of
hitters as Alomar, Carter and Winfield so it is logical to give them a
lower ranking.  

>
>Harold
>-- 
>Harold Brooks (NSSL, Norman, OK) hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
>Officially self-employed, self-speaking
>Andres Galarraga (Through 21 July)  .194 BA  .286 SLG  .234 OBA
>27 H away from .300  6 HBP  3 BB

--David Johnson
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (Joe Lundy)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:23:36 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.153614.27645@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul25.030944.22822@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard) writes:
|> >Forget about Salazar.  Who would you rather have: Bonds or Puckett?  Playing
|> >for an underdog Kirby has two rings.  Playing for a favourite Bonds has
|> >zip.
|> 
|> Why do you think that number of World Series rings is a useful determiner
|> of value?  It takes a lot of luck to get through two 7-game series
|> successfully.  Ernie Banks never got a World Series ring.  Ted Williams
|> never got a World Series ring.  Does that make Kirby Puckett a better
|> player than Ted Williams?  Is Mickey Hatcher a better player than Ted Williams?

Better yet, is George Zeber a better player than Roger Clemens?  Must be...
How about Fred Stanley?  George Frazier?  Have to be better than Tony Gwynn and
Dave Winfield.  In the case of Mickey Hatcher, doesn't he have *two* rings?
That makes him better than a lot of guys	:-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Lundy           Encore Computer Corporation, 6901 W. Sunrise Blvd.    |
| jlundy@encore.com   Mail Stop 811, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  33313-4499         |
| "Wake up and smell the peanuts" - Hy Oxman, Ft. Lauderdale Yanks vendor   |
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball