HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bill@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Good source code to read?
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:12:19 GMT

In article <BBD5PB2w164w@lorc.UUCP> lowen@lorc.UUCP (Lamar Owen) writes:
>1.) What, exactly, IS a Turing Machine (Note that I have an idea what one is,
>    I just don't know the *rigoroous* CS definition)?

This is not an answer to what is a Turing machine but a request
for more information.

Several years ago I got to use a Turing machine implementation
that CDC had on their Plato systems.

Are there any Turing machine software implemenations out in the
public domain.    It'd be a good learning tool.  Be fun to
brush up on that again.


-- 
Bill Vermillion - bill@bilver.oau.org  bill.vermillion@oau.org
                - bill@bilver.uucp 
                - ..!{peora|ge-dab|tous|tarpit}!bilver!bill

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 13:15:57 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Keywords: hacking

In article <BtI1s9.M4J@hatch.socal.com> richg@hatch.socal.com (Rich Greenberg) writes:
|. . . instead of phoning someone local (same company, same city) you
|send email even when you know they have voicemail/answering machine.
|-- 
|                
|Rich Greenberg - N6LRT - 310-649-0238 - richg@hatch.socal.com

... or talk(1?)ing to sne sitting at the next termainal.  Yup, it's
happened to me.  As I recall, there was something like this going on
in my mind: "If I tap him on the shoulder and say something, he'll
reboot.  talk(1?)ing will send him an interrupt but leave him up."
I can't wait to get back to school.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  ftit@engin.umich.edu   |   "... a stainless steel rat in the       |
|    (Sergej Roytman)     |  ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet"   |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say no to four-line .sigs.
From: colombo@bronco.fnal.gov (Rick Colombo - Fermilab)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash pix
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:27:23 GMT
Organization: Fermilab Computing Division

In article <1992Aug27.114044.22877@echo.philips.nl>, dolf@echo.philips.nl (Dolf Grunbauer) writes:
> Talking about taking flash photo's. I once heard a story of a demo of some
> sort of new computer (no details given) which has some parts in EPROM (you
> know, the PROMS you can clear by shining light on its top). They had hidden
> this new computer behind a curtain. When the room was filled with all kind
> of news people, including photographers, they removed the curtain. On this
> very moment every photographer in the room started taking his 'exclusive'
> picture. But as the technicians had forgotten to seal the EPROM's erasing
> windows the flash light cleared the EPROMs or at least erased them enough
> to be unable to continue with the demo.
> 

So this EPROM was sitting on top of the computer mugging for the camera?
Sounds like real folklore to me, but at least it's in the appropriate place.
I've seen EPROMs erased, they use UV light and set the timer for 15 minutes.

 ___________________________________________________________________________
 *****  *   *  From the e-net desk of: Rick Colombo CD/DCD/DSG    *    *
 *      **  *  Fermi Nat'l Acc'l Lab   708-840-8225 Fermilab     * *   *
 ***    * * *  P.O. Box 500   MS 369   Feynman Computer Center  *****  *
 *      *  **  Batavia, Ill. USA 60510 Colombo@fnal.fnal.gov    *   *  *****
 *  Sure to get `Flamed' if I didn't cross all my i's and dot all my t's ;-)
From: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 13:53:03 PDT
Reply-To: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us

In article <1992Aug24.114326.58347@cc.usu.edu>, ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!) writes:
> I saw a billboard for a pizza place the other day that proudly proclaimed
> "More than 255 choices!" Let's see, that makes eight things that you can
> either have or not have...


Those advertising types are always the same.  "more than 255 choices"...
read:  _EXACTLY_ 256 choices,  unless you count the fact that you don't
need to buy the pizza as the 257th choice.

Aki.
-- 
/  Phone: 408-662 9664   Fax: 662 9676  |  "Aki" pronounced: Ah-Key. I know  \ 
\  125 Searidge Ct #D, Aptos, CA 95003  |  what I'm doing most of the time.  /
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13319 alt.religion.computers:600
From: lowen@lorc.UUCP (Lamar Owen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers
Subject: Re: Good source code to read?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 11:09:58 EDT
Organization: LORC Enterprises

fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON) writes:
> I think that even Apple II's had disk drives or cassettes as I/O
> devices. This gives them access to an arbitrary amount of storage,
> which in turn means that the halting problem for an Apple II
> with disk drive IS unsolveable.

I'm not a Computer Science student; I'm an engineer who happens to hack a 
little (I used to do lots of hacks, but I no longer can take the time...).  So,
although I've been following this thread, I want to know two things: 

1.) What, exactly, IS a Turing Machine (Note that I have an idea what one is,
    I just don't know the *rigoroous* CS definition)?
    
2.) What is the Halting Problem?  From the articles in this thread thus far, I
    have a pretty good idea.
    
3.) (I lied)  Why is this Halting Problem so important?????


--

Lamar Owen, Systems Consultant, GE Lighting Systems, Hendersonville, NC
***********************************************************************
 Opinions expressed herein are the author's and do not reflect policy
   or opinions of the General Electric Company or its subsidiaries.
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler (was Re: The need for an assembler)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:10:09 GMT

In article <9224507.14397@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus James HENDERSON) writes:

>>>
>>>Suppose you're neck deep in the bowels of a multi-megabyte system and you
>>>come across a label in the source code.  There could be any number of
>>>GOTOs in the code that branch to that label.  Even if the original
>>>programmer was kind enough to provide a comment listing them all (I've
>>>only seen that once and I wrote it), figuring out which particular one
>>>you're concerned about can be a nightmare. (In a language like BASIC the
>>>problem is even worse since _every line_ can be the target of an arbitrary
>>>number of GOTOs).
>>
>>a)	That's ludicrous since no code does a GOTO the middle of a module
>>therefore the largest thing to worry about is the size of the module you
>>are working on where the label exists.
>
>I have seen 2000-line source files with GOTOs that spanned 1000 lines.

OK, 1000 lines, so where is the multi-megabyte implication?  The statement
stands.

>
>>b)	*Real* compilers/assemblers have cross-reference listings so you can
>>check it out if you care.
>
>The point is that it requires quite a bit of extra effort to be sure that 
>you really understand what that goto/label pair really do when compared to
>the difficulty of understanding a simple "while" loop. In the former case,
>you have to scan the entire module, (create and then) look at the
>cross-reference listing, or do a grep. In the latter case, you know
>*immediately* what the "while" does.

I doubt if this extra effort is significent.  The local GOTOs will be
local, and will use names that imply that unless needed elsewhere.  The
kind that want to span long distances are generally necessary, and better
be checked.  Without them, the potential program overhead they replace
could be even more troublesome to check for in accumulation.

>>uses a global GOTO.
>
>You may not, but there are some that do.

A good language should have trouble allowing what you ask some to do that
I say are hardly ever used.  This sounds like we are both saying it's not
for good design.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Keywords: Pascal
Reply-To: peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva)
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:44:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.060758.14707@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> Perhaps with experience, we tend to rule out some choices, but don't twist
> what I said: the point I am making is that assembler is underutilized meaning
> should have been used in some places but wasn't for reasons outside of the
> technical merits.

In my experience assembly is *overutilized*, meaning that it's used in places
where a high level language could have done the job as well. Particularly in
PC (including Mac, Amiga, etc) software where authors and publishers trumpet
that some application is written entirely in assembly as if that's an advantage
in and of itself. I'm sorry, but on an Amiga or Mac or IBM PC there's no reason
whatsoever an entire text editor needs to be in assembly, especially when it's
going to be spending all its time waiting for keystrokes.

Maybe the search algorithm, or the formatting code, but you better have a high
level backup so it'll keep running when you switch processors.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
$ EDIT/TECO LOVE                                              'U` 
%TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war?                        Have you hugged your wolf today?
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.      Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012       +1 713 274 5180
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: quale@saavik.cs.wisc.edu (Douglas E. Quale)
Subject: Re: Good source code to read?
Organization: Undergraduate Projects Lab, UW Madison
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 05:02:47 GMT

In article <17ehonINN75b@rodan.UU.NET> avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
>
>It's interesting is there any practical value in the three-step
>scheme? I used it once to determine the length of a cycle of a
>random-number generator but have no idea of a different usage.
>
>--vadim

It is sometimes used to detect circular lists in lisp, where the trick
is well known (see the discussion of list-length in either edition of
_Common_Lisp_ by Guy L. Steele).  Apparently it is not as well known
among C hacks.
-- 
Doug Quale
quale@saavik.cs.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash illiteracy; was: Re: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers
Date: 1 Sep 92 08:22:05 GMT
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden

In article <1992Sep1.033942.2502@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis) writes:
>In article <1856@adagio.UUCP> grog@adagio.UUCP (Greg Lehey) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug27.040325.14733@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
>>>I have been asked whether one needs flash to photograph a solar eclipse.
>>
>>Of course. You need to fill in the details in the shadow. Of course,
>>you also need to consider a couple of technical problems:
>>
>>1. You will need a very bright flash
>>2. Flash should be set to fire 2.5 seconds before shutter opens.
>
>Oh?  I've got very good results with a flash which fires 16 minutes
>before the shutter opens....  Light is not instantaneous you know..

I also fell into this trap at first: "But surely he must have meant 16
minutes, since it takes 8 minutes for the light to reach the sun".
Then I realized that 2.5 seconds is the correct figure after all - if
you're going to illuminate anything, it's of course the *moon*, not
the sun (which is behind the moon, and, anyway, why would anyone want
to illuminate the sun?).

Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
Dept. of Theoretical Physics    |  \  Z   / q
University of Lund, Sweden      |   >----<           
Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se     |  /      \===== g
Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52          | /e-      \q
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: me@dude.pcs.com (Michael Elbel)
Subject: Re: Flash pix (was: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers))
Organization: PCS Computer Systeme GmbH
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:23:44 GMT

In <BERRY.92Aug24112530@athos.pei.com> berry@athos.pei.com (Berry Kercheval) writes:
>Just to add some information to the discussion, it turns out that on
>many cameras that use flash-cubes (and probably the newer guys that
>have built in flashes) putting the flash-cube on switches to a slower
>shutter speed, allowing you to take pictures in less light.

>Of course, for this purpose, a dead flash-cube works just as well as a
>good one...

And is absolutely necessary if you want to take a picture of a
computer screen :-) (Not that I would use any camera that doesn't
let me decide when to use the flash and when not).

I remember my sister taking shots of the TV with the flash 
and being astonished that they didn't come out well ;-)

Michael
--
Michael Elbel 			|  No, I haven't lost my brain!
PCS GmbH, Muenchen, Germany	|  I just forgot it in the
   me@dude.pcs.com 		|  rush this morning.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: wes@cs.UAlberta.CA (Wes Tutak)
Subject: Re: Computer world champ
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:42:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.113059.22787@cs.hw.ac.uk> sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk writes:
>
>In article <l9t0ulINNjq7@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes:
>
>>Everyone knows about the World Computer Chess Championships,
>>not quite up to world human standard yet, but I recently heard 
>>that a program had become world checkers ("draughts" in UK)
>>champ -- beating the human champ.
>
>Chinook is the computer; Prof. Marion Tinsley is the human.
>Tinsley retained his world title after a marathon match in the UK
>just last weekend.  Chinook won a few games, but not the title.
>I forget the final score.
>
>The funny side to this is that when Tinsley was returning home,
>he found all his flight reservations had been screwed up by the
>British Airways computerised booking system.  "Just when you think
>it's all over, it has only begun."
>
>>linden@eng.sun.com|| P. van der Linden and his uncustomary theories.
>
>STF
>--
>sfleming@cs.hw.ac.uk                        ...uknet!cs.hw.ac.uk!sfleming
>"I got confused about the term 'anaerobic' and tried
>   sprinting whilst holding my breath."  -diary of a wannabe racer

The final score was:

		Chinook : 2
		Tinsley : 4
		with 33 draws


--
==========================================================================
Wes A. Tutak						wes@cs.ualberta.ca
Department of Computer Science  |  University of Alberta | Alberta, Canada
==========================================================================
From: 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Flash illiteracy; was: Re: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:39:42 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

In article <1856@adagio.UUCP> grog@adagio.UUCP (Greg Lehey) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.040325.14733@athena.cs.uga.edu> mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington) writes:
>>I have been asked whether one needs flash to photograph a solar eclipse.
>
>Of course. You need to fill in the details in the shadow. Of course,
>you also need to consider a couple of technical problems:
>
>1. You will need a very bright flash
>2. Flash should be set to fire 2.5 seconds before shutter opens.

Oh?  I've got very good results with a flash which fires 16 minutes
before the shutter opens....  Light is not instantaneous you know..

Mitch.
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Crashing in hacker haven (was: You know when you're hacking too long when...)
Keywords: hacking
Date: 29 Aug 92 10:00:47 GMT
Organization: Danish Trainspotter Society

claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:

>In article <1992Aug25.060803.4021@u.washington.edu> fetrow@biostat.washington.edu (David Fetrow) writes:

>> That includes the office number (I suspect many of us have sleeping materials
>>stashed in the office for the occasional allday+allnight+allday).
>			.
>Some don't?

Some don't have an office.
-- 
I have things to do and News to read
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Hacker sleeping materials  (was Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...)
Keywords: hacking
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:25:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.060803.4021@u.washington.edu> fetrow@biostat.washington.edu (David Fetrow) writes:
>
> That includes the office number (I suspect many of us have sleeping materials
>stashed in the office for the occasional allday+allnight+allday).

My favorite material is extra-large bubble plastic sheets used to ship large 
DEC cabinets in awhile back.  You can really stretch out comfortably on
two layers of this stuff.

Not recommended: attempting to sleep *inside* of H960 cabinets.

cjl
From: gsteckel@vergil.East.Sun.COM (Geoff Steckel - Sun BOS Hardware CONTRACTOR)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Apple /// (and MANY other computers)
Date: 28 Aug 1992 20:12:21 GMT
Organization: Omnivore Technology, Newton, Mass. (617)332-9252
NNTP-Posting-Host: vergil.east.sun.com
Keywords: antique

In article <1992Aug28.170949.1899@news2.cis.umn.edu> lemay@epx.cis.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) writes:
>If anyone is still running a Sun 1 system, i'd sure like to hear from them...
>It would be nice to try and get the Sun 1's to work again.

I'm running a Sun-1 clone (Codata Systems) with ancient V7 unix.  Still
works pretty well, too.

	geoff steckel (gwes@trilobyte.com, gwes@wjh12.harvard.EDU)
Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Sun Microsystems, despite the From: line.
This posting is entirely the author's responsibility.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Renumber BASIC ha - How about Fortran
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:42:40 GMT

Never mind renumbering BASIC - I once wrote a program (in Fortran) to
renumber Fortran programs.  It had to handle arithmatic ifs, format
statements, write(n,nnn), read(n,nnn), computed gotos, all sorts of shit.
The target code was written in either FORTRAN-G, MS-Fortran, or Fortran-77
(IBM VS-FORTRAN) and it handled all the numbered constructs of all those
dialects.

It worked really well.  My boss used to wonder why I had comment lines
in my code starting with 'C$' and some numbers.  That's how I controlled the
range and interval of the renumbering.

I originally wrote it in MicroSoft Fortran 3.3, which was almost, but not
entirely, unlike any other Fortran.  I then ported it to IBM VS-FORTRAN so
that I could run it on all our mainframe stuff.  Some of the code was really
old, and inserting a new format statement or if branch could be a real
bitch just to find an unused number that made any sort of sense in that
location.


-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com (Not an official statement of GVSI)
"All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away/For causes are ashes
were children lie slain/Yet the damed UDL and the cruel IRA/Will tomorrow go
murdering again" - Stan Rogers "The House of Orange"
From: 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Apple /// (and MANY other computers)
Keywords: antique
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:24:28 GMT
Organization: La Trobe University

In article <1992Aug28.174810.16511@bert.eecs.uic.edu> artn@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ellyn Sandor) writes:
>
>	Intel 4/40, circa 1975, serial number 001
>
>	With manuals, a blank board, papertape software (no way to load
>it without an ASR-33 teleltype), built in EPROM burner, key switch. 4 bit
>processor (either a 4004 or a 4040, I am not clear which), led's, rocker

You must be really desperate to consider selling it.

It would have either a 4004 or an 8008, since the order went

4004-->8008-->8080 etc.

Mitch.

..but then again, I could be wrong.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:21:30 GMT

ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig) writes:

>exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague) writes:

>>BTW, there are two fairly complex MS-DOS games being released shortly
>>which were written *entirely* in assembly language in order to get the
>>necessary performance (and I'm sure size was also an issue):  Disney's
>>Stunt Island and a helicopter simulator (something with "overdrive" in
>>the title?).  I have a feeling that the design of something as intricate
>>as a real-time flight simulator is a _lot_ more difficult than its
>>implementation in any language. 

>It will be interesting to see wether these also suffer the "Wing
>Commander" syndrome. This game, apart from being sloooow on slow
>hardware, is really too fast to be played on a fast 486. 

Flight simulators have to be written in assembly language to run on
toy machines like the 80x86 series.  Any time more processor power is
added, it goes towards graphics, so you still need to be able to crank
the last possible amount of speed out of the bloody things.  Writing a
high-speed simulation like that requires exploiting every last quirk
of the architecture.  Trust me on this one.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.edu
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: GOTOs
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:38:30 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis) writes:

>In article <Bu0EJI.EGF@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca> eadengle@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca (Ed "Cynwrig" Dengler) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep03.104918.10823@bnr.uk> agc@bmdhh298.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes:
>>>
>>>Or there is the C version:
>>>
>>>communicate()
>>>{
>>>from_the_top:
>>>   if(!init_rs232()) goto from_the_top;
>>>   if(!init_modem()) goto from_the_top;
>>>   if(!dial_number()) goto from_the_top;
>>>   if(!log_on()) goto from_the_top;
>>>   if(!do_the_business()) goto from_the_top;

>procedure try;

>{Build a finite state machine that repeats all actions in turn until }
>{it gets to the end without failure.  If any step fails, it starts   }
>{afresh with the initial state.                                      }

>var state:integer;
>    leave:boolean;

>begin
>  state := 0;
>  repeat
>    case state of
>      0:leave := init_rs232;
>      1:leave := init_modem;
>      2:leave := dial_modem;
>      3:leave := log_on;
>      4:leave := do_the_business;
>    end;
>    case leave of
>      true :leave := false;
>      false:state := state + 1;
>    end;
>  until (state=5);
>end;

Not very readable. (And does not start over, but that is beside the point).

What I learned of goto in my CS class was

1) Use them only for exceptional cases like errors

2) Always consider carefully if there is a better way

3) NEVER construct loops with goto (or in other words, ALWAYS
   jump forwards)

The way I do things like the above is

    repeat
      do_something;
      if not ok then goto error;
      do_something_else;
      if not ok then goto error;
      do_yet_another_thing;
      if not ok then goto error;
error:
    until ok;

Though if there were only 3 steps, i'd probably do this

    repeat
      do_something;
      if ok then
        do_something_else;
      if ok then
        do_yet_another_thing;
    until ok;

Klaus O K