HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Stupidest rule in baseball (perhaps a new one)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:53:51 GMT

In article <BzDFxH.MMF@cs.uiuc.edu> silber@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
>
>>Anyway, this sure seems an odd choice for "dumbest rule in baseball."  At
>>the very least, it seems to me, a candidate for this crown should be
>>something that, if changed, wouldn't fundamentally recast the game.  Maybe
>>the infield fly rule, or fan interference, or running on a dropped third
>>strike.
>
>Maybe fan interference, but the other two examples you named are important.
>Without the infield fly rule, the following scenario exists:
>
>Runner on 1st, ball is popped up. If the runner stays on 1st, the fielder
>lets the ball drop, throws to second for the force out. Since the batter-runner
>can't reach 1st with a man staying on it, he might be doubled off as well.
>If the runner leaves 1st, the fielder catches the ball and throws to first
>for a double play.
>
>The dropped third strike rule just adds excitement.
>
>.
>-- 
>ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
>	silber@cs.uiuc.edu

Sorry, but that answer belongs in that janitor's helper, the dustpan
(thence into the garbage bin and off to the incinerator).

The infield fly rule only applies when there are at least *two*
*forced* runners on base with less than two out. If the bases are
loaded, and all runners hold on a popup, an intentionally dropped ball
could easily force the runners at home and third. It doesn't apply
with one man on because the batter doesn't have to sit still, like
other runners; if he does what he is supposed to do, and run out every
batted ball, you can never get a double play by intentionally dropping
a popup. I have seen it happen, though, when a man wasn't running out
his popup. (If Rickey Henderson is the lone runner on first, it would
probably be worthwhile to intentionally drop a popup to get the easy
force on Rickey at second.)

As for the third strike rule, it has nothing to do with "excitement".
It is a relic of the days when the catchers played 30 feet behind the
batter, because they were playing without gloves. (Ernie Lombardi,
take note). On the third strike, the ball is in play, exactly as if
the batter had hit it, except there is no such thing as going foul. If
the defense catches it on the fly, the batter is out, just like a
regular fly. If it bounces, its a force play at first; just like a
regular ground ball. And if first base is occupied with less than two
outs, you have essentially the same thing as the infield fly rule: the
batter is out on any third strike, so you don't have catchers
intentionally dropping third strikes to get an easy double play.

Clay D.

Note: Ernie Lombardi put a cocky young pitcher in his place by
offering to catch him barehanded.

From: oz@hpkslx.mayfield.HP.COM (Kent Ostby)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:46:23 GMT
Subject: Re: All-Time Padre team
Organization: HP Response Center Lab
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

>/ hpkslx:rec.sport.baseball / lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch) / 10:16 am  Dec 15, 1992 /
>>RP	Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage
>
>Right on.  Give Butch Metzger an honorable mention for his 1 good season :-)
> 

How about an honorable mention to Dick Littlefield for his 1 good week.
He's gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

Sorry Howard.  I couldn't resist.

Oz
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: 1993 Red Sox
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:22:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.162834.23791@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>I don't think the current team can contend without a lot of breaks.
>They need quality (and healthy) years out of the starting OF/DH:
>Greenwell, Burks, Dawson, and Calderon.  IF that happens, the pitching
>may carry them to a title.  The infield of Vaughn, Naehring, Valentin,
>and Cooper is young but solid.  (Okay, so it has a hole at second
>base.)
>
>But how many people expect the outfielders to produce a combined .750
>OPS season?  Because that is what the Sox will need.

Surely the Red Sox need more than 750 OPS from their OF/DH.  They got
740 in 1991, and fat lot of good that did them.  Especially when you 
measure the difference between 1991 Boggs and 1993 Cooper.

But 750 isn't all that implausible.

Greenwell had a miserable 1992, and he will be 30, but he regularly
beat 750, usually by quite a bit, every season he was in the majors
from 1986 to 1991.  It's apparent that the Greenwell of 1987-88 was
a fluke of some sort, but I would think the same is true for the
Greenwell of 1992.  

Burks is 28 and has a career OPS of around 800, though he was only 744
this season.

Dawson is a 38-year-old out sink, but hasn't had a season below 750
since 1984-85.  He could pull a Clark, but 750 is reasonable.

Calderon's also been at 740 or above the last four years, and is
moving from Montreal, where he posted 849 and 746 OPS's, to Fenway.
He is 31, but 750 isn't unreasonable.

Are you sure all the Red Sox need is a 750 OPS in the OF?  I give 'em a 25% 
chance of pulling that off.  I think they need more than that, especially 
when they're going to be playing Pena at catcher.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Adam Levin)
Subject: Re: All-Time Phillies
Reply-To: st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:04:25 GMT

Didn't want to waste space replying the whole article. But regarding the
hole at second base, how about Manny Trillo? Not overwhelming with the 
bat, but did the job. Outstanding defensively. Held on of those 
errorless streaks. (I know, I know, errors are meaningless.) Still
He at least deserves mention with the other three. You could also try
that old Wheeze Kid, Joe Morgan q:-)

Adam Levin     st902415@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
"Yeah. Like what's feminine protection? A chartreuse flamethrower?"
	--Portnoy, Bloom County
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Worrell to the Dodgers!!!!
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:23:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake shippert@cco.caltech.edu (Tim Shippert):

[of the Dodgers...]

>	Well, at least they seem to be locking up that all-important lead
>in players with double letters in their names:
>
>	Offerman
>	Strawberry
>	Karros
>	Piazza
>	Reed
>	Candiotti
>	Gross
>	Gott
>	McDowell
>	Howell
>	Worrell
>	and maybe Boggs.

God, what a perfect lead-in.

As it turns out, I was musing about *precisely* this topic last night (yeah,
I know; it's been a loooooong week.)  Here's my all-time team.  Comments
welcome, but NO FAIR RE-USING A LETTER.

	C	Yogi Berra		SP	Carl Hubbell (under 'b')
	1B	Jimmy Foxx		SP	Mort Cooper
	2B	Tony Lazzeri		SP	Harvey Haddix
	3B	George Brett		SP	Red Ruffing
	SS	Luke Appling 		
	LF	Ted Williams		RP	Goose Gossage
	CF	Joe DiMaggio		
	RF	Henry Aaron
	DH	Al Simmons

Owner: Bill Veeck

Wanted to use, but couldn't:

	Eddie Collins	Roy Campanella	Bob Feller
	Jim Kaat	Bruce Sutter	Firpo Marberry
	Jimmy Wynn	Doc Gooden	Graig Nettles
	Eddie Murray	Ty Cobb		John Boccabella

Most qualified:

	Larry Biittner

Need to learn to spell their own names:

	Eddie Mathews	Christy Mathewson

-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NL East analysis.k
Date: 17 Dec 92 06:09:16 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Dec17.000708.17351@cc.umontreal.ca> iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Iacurto Paul) writes:
>POSITION BY POSITION RATINGS
>(Florida Marlins excluded)

why?


>Is my ratings system accurate?

No.

>Have I over estimated or under estimated certain players?

Yes.


-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dae@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.a.elliott)
Subject: Re: '93 Royals Infield?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:12:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.113307@mccall.com> scott@mccall.com (Scott D. Davis) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec14.132417.22128@cs.tulane.edu>, eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar) writes:
>>also wouldn't be arround to contend).  I'm not convinced that KC could do any
>>better for itself by not spending the money they spent on Lind and Gagne
>>(they can't make realistic player evaluations, I doubt they can make realistic
>>investments).
>>
>Which brings up these questions: Why can't the Royals' farm system
>produce some quality offense like they did w/ George Brett, Willie
>Wilson, Frank White and John Mayberry(?)?   

Well, Mayberry was obtained from the Astros organization.  Really, the
Royals have never been very good at producing position players.  Their
record with pitchers is excellent, but the 3 players you mentioned are the
only position players that they have produced in their entire history who
turned in long, productive careers (we might be able to add Don Slaught in
here, I guess).

Their are others who have had their moments (Bo Jackson, Al Cowens, Kevin
Seitzer), but even that list isn't very long.	

They can't really take credit for Cecil Fielder (who they traded after 1
year of A ball), and most of the other good players they've had (McRae,
Tartabull, Otis, Porter, Patek, Mayberry) were obtained in trades.

As to why they have such a poor record in drafting/developing non-pitchers,
I suspect it has something to do with their obsession with "speedy athlete"
types who never turn out to be hitters.  Also, consider that both John
Schuerholz and Herk Robinson worked in minor league operations for KC.  This
indicates the type of player evaluation that has been typical of the
organization over the years.



Dave Elliott
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens)
Subject: Re: What is $43.75m worth?
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:38:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.103818.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca (The
Econoclast) writes:

> 	As you correctly identify, Eric, at the end of the 1994
> season, the Giants will be faced with paying Bonds an average of more
> than $8m/yr for four years. 
> 
> 	At that point, however, the only reason someone
> might take him in trade would be if they expect him to bring in _more_
> than that amount in revenues. The Giants cannot just use him during
> the cheap years and then unload his salary unless they can find
> someone willing to pay that salary. And "...if the investment hasn't
> helped them much," they may not find any takers [see Gruber, 
> Toronto-California trade, 1992, wherein Toronto gave Calif $1m 
> to help cover Gruber's high salary].
> 


Ah yes, but let us not forget certain intangibles, such as the proven and
continued stupidity of many in baseball ownership and general management. 
If Bonds does even BETTER than last year, his worth shoots through the
roof, but for some reason, if he performs worse, it doesn't necessarily go
down.  

I mean, how many horrible seasons did Danny Jackson have after his
one-time-wonder 23 and 8 season, and yet there was no dearth of idiots
lined up to pick up his multi-million dollar contract.  Even though he was
barely worth leasgue minimum most of those years, he still collected a
couple million a year based on a once-- and not future-- value.


------------------------------

Eric A. W. Behrens
Behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dorian@engin.umich.edu (Young W Kim)
Subject: Re: Brave staff greatest in recent history?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 07:33:48 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1992Dec11.210652.7732@leland.Stanford.EDU> paladin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jason Gische) writes:
>In article <1g7l1dINN9b1@transfer.stratus.com> gene@bogus.sw.stratus.com (Eugene Loparco) writes:
>>In article <cubsfan.723966608@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>>>Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery 20 wins apiece
>>>Pete Smith 15 or so...plus the usual scattering of middle
>>>reliever wins.
>>
>>I'd rather have Gooden, Viola, Cone, Fernandez, Darling from a few years
>>back...
>
>Except that by that time, Darling was already mediocre, Gooden was first
>recovering from surgery and had the worst year of his career, and Viola
>was his usual great-first-half-shitty-second-half self.  That staff
>will forever look better on paper than it really was.  And it hurt to
>see.
>
>Now you might be able to make a case for the 1986 staff:
>Gooden, Ojeda, Darling, Fernandez, Aguilera.
>
>Wait a year and see.
>
>Jason Gische
>

	You know what, I'd much rather take Met's 88 staff over their 90,
and maybe even Brave's next year's staff. If I recall correctly, that
year, Gooden, Cone, Ojeda, Darling and Sid put together some very nice
numbers. Anyone have actual stats? If it wasn't for Orel's Godlike
performance, Mets would have won that years world series IMHO (I know, 
I'm wishing)
	As for Maddux pitching in a batter's park, could anyone check what
the park effect were for Wrigley? I seem to recall, for a strange reason,
that it had a negative effect on offense last year. I mean Cubs practically
lead NL in ERA....

				-dorian-

====================================================================
| I know why the caged birds die | %Goodbye, and as always, Hello% | 
|         Like them,             |     dorian@engin.umich.edu      | 
|  I have also touched the sky...|   dorian_kim@um.cc.umich.edu    | 
|                 -Someone       |     wi.6839@n7kbt.rain.com      | 
====================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: chickenman in New York
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:39:34 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

gotribe@cbnewse.cb.att.com (richard.g.barry) writes:
: In article <1992Dec15.232652.1@hamp.hampshire.edu>, tyeckley@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
: > Wow...Boggs t the Yankees  I'm not sure how i feel about that
: > If it really was an off year, than the yanks may have pulled off the coup of
: > the winter.
: I don't think so.  I don't have Boggs Home/Away stats in front of
: me, but I recall that even when Boggs was a good hitter (.340-.350),
: he hit MUCH higher in Boston than anywhere else.  In fact, his
: road stats were kind of average.  Don't expect Boggs to do much
: hitting in NY; of course he still walks a lot so he'll be a decent
: leadoff hitter OBA-wise...

Last five years:
       AB   H   2B 3B HR  BB  K   AVG  OBP  SLG
Home  1397 492 137 13 19 280 105 .352 .459 .510
Road  1487 428  67 11 10 202 111 .288 .371 .368

Yowza, look at those doubles numbers! That's 64 points of average, 88 points
of OBP, and 142 points of SLG. Boggs isn't a pull hitter, so I don't expect
him to get much of a boost from the short RF fence in Yankee Stadium. He's
34, and has a bad back. I don't think he was a *bad* signing for the Yankees
(unless they do something stupid and leave him at third after Russell Davis
is ready), but I certainly wouldn't consider it a coup. The Boggs stat that
would scare me, were I (shudder) a Yankee fan, is that he's had 144 and 143
games played in the last two years after three straight years of >155 games.
I don't know his career stats for Yankee Stadium, but I do remember hearing
that, of road parks, he hit best in Minnesota (almost as well as Fenway),
and worst in Oakland (a career average <.300!). Time to get used to the
phrase, "American League batting champion Edgar Martinez."

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

I once started reading a book in the middle of an interview. The guy asked me
what I was doing. I asked him: If you were in a vehicle moving at the speed
of light, and you turned on the headlights, would they do anything? He said
he didn't know. I said: well then, I don't want to work for you.
	- Steven Wright
From: riff@coos.dartmouth.edu (Christopher P. Riff)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Chuch McElroy (Was: Re: Cubs and Lefties)
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:24:20 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

guest@sili (Rockin' Robyn) writes:

>riff@coos.dartmouth.edu (Christopher P. Riff) writes:

>>I'd hate to see McElroy go. I still remember the play from 1991 where he
>>basically took out Pedro Guerrero with a tackle on a close play at first.
>>He doesn't look that tough (probably due to his glasses), but he did
>>play high school football.

>        I, too, remember that play, and also recall he is one hell of a 
>        hitter.  I don't have the stats here but am willing to guess his
>        average was well over .400 and slugging was over .800.  He loves
>        the game, has great stuff, and doesn't bitch when the manager 
>        makes a command decision to give another pitcher the save opportunity.

I'm pretty sure that McElroy was 3 for 5 with a double and a triple last
year. He also hit close to .500 the year before.

Chris Riff
riff@dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: molinari@ccs.northeastern.edu (Bert Molinari)
Subject: Re: Atlanta pitching
Organization: CDSP Computing Lab, Northeastern University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:55:15 GMT
From: psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Mets and Yankees sign pitchers
Date: 13 Dec 92 14:11:54 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1992Dec13.014554.121842@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> ism1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (IAN SETH MILLER) writes:
>>of the better left handers in the league, IMHO.  Their pitching staff is
>>pretty much set with Abbott, Perez, Key, Millitello, Wickman.  

I'm curious as to why so many people think Millitello and Wickman are 
shoe-ins for the rotation?  It would seem more likely that Scott Kamienicki
will get first crak at one of those spots and then only if he were to fail
would the other of these two rookies get their chance.

PSG


-- 
America must've gone through quite a change the last month and a half.  Since
Clinton promised a cabinet that "would look more like America," it must be that
we've all become far left academicians or career politicians.  The ivory tower
is rebuilt, communism lives and it's advocates are working for Bill Clinton! 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jlundy@bilbo.encore.com (Joe Lundy)
Subject: Benito Santiago
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:41:14 GMT

Just heard word that according to "family members", Benito
Santiago is close to signing a one year deal with the Marlins.

They expect to announce this after the offices reopen on Tuesday
after the untimely death of president Carl Barger.  At that time,
as well, the Marlins are expected to announce the signing of 
Seibu Lion Orestes Destrade to a three year deal.

GM Dave Dombrowski had said earlier that the Marlins will look to
pursue non-tendered free agents.  We'll know who's who on that list
in a week or so.

So far, this is not too shabby:

C  Benito Santiago
1B Orestes Destrade
2B Bret Barbarie
SS Walt Weiss
3B Dave Magadan
OF Junior Felix
OF Chuck Carr
OF Monty Fariss

...with a rotation of (Armstrong, Carpenter, Chiamparino, Hough) and
Corsi and Harvey in the Pen.

Not too bad.  I have the feeling they'll be plugging up a few more holes in
the weeks to come.  How many years will it take for the Marlins to have a
better record than the Red Sox?  Not too long by the way Dombrowski's working
this team into shape.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Lundy           Encore Computer Corporation, 6901 W. Sunrise Blvd.    |
| jlundy@encore.com   Mail Stop 811, Ft. Lauderdale, FL  33313-4499         |
| Most important stats of all time:  The youngest Marlins fan is here!!!!!  |
| Adrianne Lundy Born 10/19/92  Hght: 1' 7", Wt: 8 Poops: Left Burps: Right |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Braves land Maddox !!
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:45:19 GMT
Organization: Emory University, Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit Likhyani) writes:
: It still has not registered.  The Braves have Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz,
: and Avery with Pete Smith as the #5 starter.  That really is
: unbelievable.  At some point, they are going to be paying $20 million to
: their top 4 guys.  It must be nice to own a superstation.
: 
: You have to give the Braves credit.  This is almost unfair.  I was
: really encouraged by what the Reds have done, but they just cannot keep
: up.
: 
: If they sign McGwire, forget about it.  The 1986 Mets 108 wins may be in
: jeopardy.  
: 
: I can't see more than 3 NL east teams with winning records next year

This may have been mere negotiating strategy, but the inimitable
Stan Kasten was quoted in the Atlanta paper the other day as saying
that the Braves would not sign McGwire because "we already have
Bream and Hunter."  
Stanley's never been averse to saying remarkably stupid things in
public.

Bill   
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz)
Subject: Re: NL East analysis.k
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:09:41 GMT

I agree with just about everything you said except your rating of
Mulholland. When you excluded him from the tie, I thought that it
was to put him ahead of the rest which I agreed with. Of course, you
put him behind evreyone else. Muloholland is viewed as one of the
league's premiere lefthanders. Last year's troubles were due to 
injury and lack of run support. I think he should at least be rated
equally.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: texdude@cs1.bradley.edu (Philip Allen)
Subject: Dean Palmer batting 2nd?
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 12 Dec 92 04:11:29 GMT


Last year, for some completely unknown reason, Bobby Valentine let
Dean Palmer bat second.  And at first, he seemed to actually do a
decent job of it.  Now, he wasn't what you'd call a perfect guy for
that spot (he still struck out a ton, didn't walk much).  But, for
a while, his batting average went up about 40 points.  (ok, it probably
had a lot to do with pitchers actually pitching *to* him instead of
around him - because he had Sierra and Gonzales hitting behind him)

Anyway, I didn't catch many games after Harrah took over as manager,
so I don't know if continued to bat second.  And if so, did he continue
to do well?


Phil Allen
texdude@cs1.bradley.edu


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball