From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Eggert vs. Livni
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:47:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.224926.12235@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

|>In article <1992Sep1.183356.1384@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
|>writes:

|>The point still
|>stands.  Jake is correct about whether or not it happens.  The only
|>thing that can be disputed is how often.  Your ad hominem attacks do
|>not change this (but they shed a bad light on you).

Jake is cerainly not correct if he is claiming that "it happens". Get your
tenses right.

Jakes claim arises from a beleif that all Arabs are liars and theives. I was not
seeking to attack the claim through the man but the opposite. I was pointing out
how only someone with racist attitudes would make such a claim.


|># Thats because you are living in a backwards hick country where the rights
|>of
|># property are not respected. What you are describing there is abuse of the
|>law.
|>
|>	I live in the United States, where this is in fact the law.
|>Remember, we revolted against you guys because you abused the law with
|>us.

Well if you want to get personal then I'll point out that you still revolt me.

Before we get into a discussion over the circumstances under which the US got
kicked out of the British Empire for making tea with salt water let me point out
that fine words in the constitution do not guarantee rights. Removal of property
without due process of law is tantamount to a bill of attainder.


|># In the UK we set rather a higher score on democratic rights.
|>
|>	Oh really.  I could show you an article written by David Broder
|>(One of the most respected columnists, by people of all political
|>views) about how the British condemnation of Israeli handling of the
|>intifada in light of British behavior in Northern Ireland.

Since you have seen me post at inordinate length on the British behaviour on
Northern Ireland and are quite aware of my position I can only conclude that it
is you who are stooping to ad-hominem attacks. 

I have on many occasions described how the macho heavy handed tactics of Heath
and the Ulster Unionists created the present problems. The Israeli activities in
the occupied territories are self defeating. No matter how sever the repression
they will not bring any measure of peace.


|># |> In at least one case, an individual convinced a jury he
|># |>was innocent, and then a judge overturned the jury verdict!  And this
|># |>all can take place even if charges are never brought against the
|># |>individual!!!!
|> 
|># This sounds clearly unconstitutional, not that constitutional rights ever
|>meant
|># much.
|> 
|>	The United States Supreme Court has said that this is very
|>constitutional.

A bunch of political appointees. Surely the shenanigains over Roe vs Wade must
make you think that there must be something a bit wrong? Are you suddenly going
to change your mind over the constitutional right to abortion if Bush succeeds
in rigging the court to overturn it?



|># |># What Jake seeks to justify is confiscation of property without
|># |>compensation.
|>
|># |>	Nope.  He seeks a return of property.  The Arabs should feel lucky
|># |>they are not being asked o pay for their illegal occupation of the
|># |>property.
|> 
|># Jake is asking for no such thing. We are discussing the cases where no claim
|>is
|># being made by any individual. 
|>
|>	That is what Jake is asking for, whether or no a claim has been
|>made.  Remember, the rightful Jewish owners may have died with no
|>decendents.

In which case there is no claim. What you are doing is to blow a possibility
that a house may be stolen into a certainty and then justfy it's expropriation
by a third party on those grounds. It's thinking like this that causes misery.


|># Given that the policy we are discussing is that of Ariel
|># Sharon you will look hard to find support for it even in Israel.
|>
|>	Sharon has much support (even if it is not a majority) in Israel.
|>However, what policy are you talking about.

If Sharon has so much support please explain why he has just lost the election.


|>	I agree with your statement, but he his still very popular among
|>some.

So is David DuKKKe.


|># |># |>There is no such hypocritical demand.  The mezuzas on the doorposts
|># |># |>simply indicate that the Arab claim to have been living in the house
|># |># |>for generations is false. 
|> 
|># |># Jews have lived in the holy land for generations too you know.
|>
|># |>	Agreed.
|> 
|># So the presence of Mezuza holes tells us nothing about whether a house was
|># illegaly misappropriated from Jews, merely that Jews once lived there. 
|>
|>	From a definite point of view, yes.  But once the facts of how
|>they came to leave those homes becomes clear, it is obvious that it
|>was misappropriated.  And it does tell us that the Arab claim of a
|>centuries old continuous presence is a lie (at least in those homes).

Not if the house was built by a Jew centuries ago and then sold to an Arab.


|># If you want peace with you neighbours it is best to stop producing
|># rationalisation for stealing his property.
|>
|>	There is no rationalization going on here.  And as I have stated
|>before, peace is impossible without Divine intervention.  Both sides
|>share blame for that, but it is a fact that must be dealt with.

Oh arguing with a religious type eh? You should realise that religious
fundamentalist arguments have least currency on the net.

|># Thankfully with the defeat of Likud
|># it is to be expected that these practices have either been stopped or are
|>being
|># stopped.
|>
|>	The defeat of Likud has no effect.  Eventually, to protect Arabs
|>and Jews from Killing each other, Kach ideas will have to be enacted.
|>A Labor defeat would not have changed that.

Oh yes we forgot, Makowsky is a Khach supporter. The Israeli version of the Klu
Klux Klan and a tenth as popular.

|># I am still waiting for Jake to list the dates of his military service in
|>Israel.
|>
|>	I have seen you make this request before.  Why do you care?
|>
|># Perhaps Makowsky could also oblige.
|>
|>	Why?
|>
|># One of the most disgusting aspects of the
|># whole situation is the fact that those who are most vociferous in their
|>demands
|># to continue the occupation of the territories and confiscation of Arab
|>property
|># are also the very same people who wheedle out of military service on
|>"religious"
|># grounds. 
|>
|>	You have no idea about what your are talking.  I suggest you find
|>out what a Hesder Yeshiva is.  At any rate, I live in the US where
|>there is no draft.

There is no Heseder Yeshiva only a Yeshivat Hahesder, I am instructed by my
sources to tell you that you are an ignorant git. Sitting in a room reading the
Torah does not count as military service, nor is 9 months token service
comensurate with the 3 years that all other Israelis have to do.

|>At any rate, I live in the US where
|>there is no draft.

Thus you live in the wrong continent to be credible as a fanatical Zionist.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:41915 talk.politics.theory:3860 soc.culture.usa:6874 alt.conspiracy:10291