From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Who hates who?
Keywords: Environment, Libertarians
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:19:00 GMT

In article <BzH41v.ME7@world.std.com> rjk@world.std.com (robert j kolker) writes:
>This posting is a response to the "Why they hate us thread" that has been
>going on for some time.  I am a libertarian, and I associate with
>libertarians (among others). I have yet to hear a libertarian attack the
>principle of environmental soundness. There are sound reasons for this:
>
>	1. Libertarians oppose the initiation of force on the irresponsible
>	   imposition of hazard which is a kind of aggression. Clearly the
>	   dumping of hazardous waste with the effect of poisoning a neighbors
>	   water supply, or befouling his air is agression and must be 
>	   sanctioned.

It seems that Libertarians want to prevent this via litigation.  While
not bad in theory, it would be impractical in practice, IMO.
>
>	2. The oppositon to the environmentalist extremists is based on
>	   perception that said extremists are Luddites and oppose technology
>	   as such. Also such extremeist are perceived as putting the inter-
>	   ests of non-human species above those of humans.

I guess the latter part of this paragraph is used to define an
environmental extremist.  I don't know of many environmentalists
who "oppose technology".  They like some and they don't like
others.  Most of them love solar panels.  The issue is the use
of technology.  As to the animals - considering how much of the
surface and productivity of the earth that mankind has usurped,
I fail to see how todays protection puts the interests of non-human
species above humans.  Maybe its just looking for a balance - one
that we are not anywhere near close to.
>
>	3. The environmental extremists are perceived as advocating the inter-
>	   vention of regulatotry burocracies in the minute details of day to
>	   day business operations.

This is a very justified perception as to the attitude of most
environmentalists, though not all.  
>
>	4. Many liberians believe that environmentally unsound practices are
>	   the result of business firms getting access to air and water as
>	   free sewers whose cost is not correctly reflected in the books of
>	   such firms. As a result the goods are priced without regards to the
>	   cost of the side effects of environmentally unsound production 
>	   methods.  

Very true.
>
>	5. Consequently, some libertarians would like to see the social costs
>	   of production appear on the books of said firms, forcing the price
>	   of the goods to the end user to reflect the actually social
>	   costs.  If this were done, environmentally sound production
>	   would have a competitive advantage over pollution and market forces
>	   would enforce environmentally sounds techniques.
>
This sounds good to me.  Doesn't the identical issue pertain to
the atmosphere and many other components of the biosphere?  How
are these social costs to be included in Libertaria?
>
>	This nonsense the libertarians favor the tyranny of the strong
>	over the weak is just that: nonsense.  Libertarians are strongly
>	opposed to the initiating of force and fraud as sociopathic behaviour
>	which must be sanctioned.

I don't believe that Libertarians favor such a tyranny.  I do believe
that their policies may very well lead us there because:

	1) The laissez faire policies they favor lead to the
		concentration of power, so that laissez faire
		is essentially self-limiting.

	2) The "free rider problem", as Libertarians refer to it.
		In other words, I do not believe that voluntary
		funding of collective goods will work under the
		conditions of a Libertarian society.
>
>	Rember libertians live here too.  Earth is our common home.

"Common home" does sound like a very Libertarian concept :).
>
>Conan the Libertarian
>
>
>-- 
>"If you can't love the Constitution, then at least hate the Government"
>


-- 
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	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com