From: loverde@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (AstralWolf)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:52:25 GMT

In <1992Dec13.055406.20154@mercury.unt.edu> jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:

>In article <Bz1JwA.Jrv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>>jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:
>>>   Ryu can hix up the spee of his HK.  Landing right behind you to throw you.
>>>If you are counter-throwing he can dp you.  In essence, if Ryu is good at
>>>this type of thing you CANNOT duck the HK.  You physically can, but it
>>>will get you nailed one way or another by a master.  The only way to not
>>>take any damage from a good Ryu's HK is to stop it.  Same as Bison's
>>>flame.  And Bison's flame doesn't go through fireballs (a well timed HK
>>>will).
>>
>>A couple of points:
>>1) Ryu does not mix up the speed of his HK. The distance it travels varies
>>	but not speed.
>
>   Sorry, that's what I meant.  You don't know where he is going to land
>(no speed change).  With Bison's torpedo you can tell where he is going
>to land (by his speed).
>

     Perhaps you don't look carfully enough, but the HK DOES have different
speeds.  The short HK is NOTICEABLY slower that the roundhouse HK.  
I believe one demonstration of this is at the beginning of a Ken vs Ryu
round with Ryu.  Have Ken toss a FB, and then as Ryu try the short HK,
then the roundhouse the next round.  I think you will see that the
short will not hit (or if it does it will glance and not take as much as a
"full" HK hit with Ryu) and the roundhouse will always hit.
     The other simple way is to simply look at them.  Not only do they travel
at slightly different speeds, but the sounding of TatsuMakiSenPuKyaku
is different.  The easiest way to see this is to play Ryu, and then 
in certain situations in play where you use the HK, you will notice a subtle
difference.  Especially true when you try to HK as Guile tosses a boom.
The short give him time to counter, the roundhouse does not.
>
>  In terms of skill I would say it takes more skill to throw as soon as you
>seem him land, then it is for him to dp as soon as he lands.  And it seems
>like many times I go for the counter throw with Dhalsim I can get shorted out
>of it.  Also, he can go just outside throw range and dp if you make a mistake 
>of going for a throw.  Again, this is your fault, but it makes the set-up
>no less powerful for a very simple move.  [I was discussing power of moves, not
>"oh my god, this HK is WAY to hard man".  I understand everything can be
>countered.]
>
     Actually if you think about the DP should be more difficult.  Think of the
joystick motion and timing.  Ryu has to perform the DP motion so that it
completes just as he lands, whereas his opponent merely presses the button
while holding the stick in a direction when Ryu lands to throw.  However,
if both people mess up, I will admit that Ryu has a larger margin of error since
if his opponent is late, and his DP is late, the DP wins.  But both moves
require timing which is identical, and the throw will win if they are timed
right and performed at the same time.

>>4) The reason you are getting nail must be because you suck.
>
>   I don't get nailed.  I also don't duck the HK - so elliminate all of the
>above anyway.  My point is power of the move, which I think you would agree
>is ATLEAST as cool and devestating as Bison's puny flame.
>
     Most every character can duck the HK when they see it coming then clock
Ryu when he get to the other side.  Examples: Blanka's crouching fierce,
ChunLi crouching roundhouse, Ken Ryu Guile Zangief Balrog(I think one of his
crouching punched anyway) crouching fierce.  These are all relatively simple
counters, and the window upon which they can be performed is EXTREMELY
large when compared to the split second window when Bison perform the
cheesepedo.  My greatest problem with the cheesepedo is that when playing
Bison, I feel I can just cheesepedo and my opponent can't counter.  At
least it will be very difficult for him to counter it so I do it.  No other
character in the game has a move like this.  Personally I believe the Cheesepedo
is a move where it's better if they block.  I can take an inch of life
away if they are in the middle of the screen, all with a simple move.
It's the ancient damage/skill ratio, and is by far the most outrageous
ratio in the game.  No one move in the game can compare to it.  The HK
does not even come close.  When was the last time you saw a guy HK back
and forth and win the match?  If so perhaps you should just tell the
person who lost the counters, and watch them counter it on the first try.
The cheese on the other hand requires a great deal of timing to counter as
the is less of a window to counter from.
-- 
   /|        /              / |      /       /  /-/  Can be reached on the
  / |  /--/ --- |/-/ /-\|  |  |  ^  /  /-\  |  |/    Astral Planes known as:
 /--|  \-\   |  |   |   |  |  | /| /  |  |  |  |      loverde@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
/   | \--/  /  /    \--/| /   |/ |/   \-/  /   /      jvl45017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu