From: m1wcc00@fed.frb.gov (Wayne C. Cook)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Debunking the standard myth was Re: Couple of thoughts..
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:29:22 GMT
	<1992Aug23.024829.13983@msc.cornell.edu>
Organization: Federal Reserve Board
In-reply-to: hillyard@lynx.msc.cornell.edu.UUCP's message of 23 Aug 92 02:48:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.153802.6189@random.ccs.northeastern.edu> gary@ccs.northeastern.edu (Gary Duhaney) writes:

 >WC:  Yeah, genius.  Make the correlation.  If his thing was going to the hole
  >     and he has this decent verticle helping him to succeed, then when that 
   >     verticle diminishes, his inside game diminishes.  So he either contin-
  >     ues with a weaker game or starts changing his emphasis in an attempt to
 >     keep up.  Ergo, by his theory, his increased concentration on a relatively
  >     more outside focused game should improve his shooting because according
 >     to his theory, it's a process of development where success is dependent 
   >     upon spending more time doing one thing than another.
   >
   >WC: Did you become a better shooter as your vertical declined?  That's your
   >    theory right?

Gary:
   Here is your "confusing" statement.  The two aren't the same.  The first
   statement says that time & effort = improved skills.

WC: Your doing ok so far, this is Russ' opinion (except that it doesn't
    include that his feeling is that that alone accounts for success).

Gary:
  The second says
   shooting ability is directly proportional to vertical leap; you
   did say/imply (take your pick) that you're either a leaper or a
   shooter in an earlier article.

WC: This is wrong.  I never came close to saying this.  

Gary:
  You've attributed your theory and his
   to him.  Obviously your the one who is confused.

WC: Again, you're incorrect.

Gary:
   Now if that's what you mean to say, then I can't help it if you need
   alot of words to express a simple thought correctly.

WC: More of the same, wrong.

   >   [stuff deleted]
   >
   >   >Russ:
   >   >   Look do me a small favor, spend 2 hours playing 2 on 2 volleyball in
   >   >   the sand. then wake up the next day and feel the burn in your calves
   >   >   and thighs. Now do this 6 months out of the year all through jumior
   >   >   high and highschool. You seriously think it won't increase your leap?
   >   >   Thats why there's a lot of skywalkers in So Cal volleyball, there are
   >   >   at least 3 white guys now on the pro tour with 38" or better jumps,
   >   >   and 38 is flying, there's not that many in the NBA better than that.
   >			   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   >   >
   >   >WC: 3 guys.  Well that supports my statement that their are a few white guys
   >   >    that can jump.
   >
   >Gary:   No it doesn't, read what the guy said.  Major-leapers are few and far
   >   between, and as far as I've seen and anyone has proven, no "race" has
   >   a monopoly.
   >
   >WC: My viewpoint is not based solely upon "major leapors".  I pointed out that
   >    blacks jump better than other races.  But, there are more black major
   >    leapers than others too.
Gary:
   You obviously have a problem with english comprehension and logical
   thought.  He said that there are 3 guys with 38" vertical, then he
   said that there aren't that many in the NBA that have better.  The
   sample that he took was much smaller than the NBA, therefore it is
   obvious that there wouldn't be as many.  So obviously his statement
   did not support your hypothesis.  You seem to have forgotten that
   he only mentioned the ability of the major leapers not that of the
   others.

WC:  None of the above proves that these supposed "volleyball-white-
         guys-who-jump-well" do so because they've been running around in
         the sand and jumping alot.  Why not accept that these guys already
         had spring and therefore went into volleyball because the sport 
         suited their abilities?  Two on two I assume, is a top-flite
         level, so naturally the others get weeded out of competing,
         until all that's left are the better jumpers/athletes/players.

Gary:
   Why don't you prove your point with cold hard unadulterated facts.
   Facts untained by your own racial biases. Prove that blacks jump
   better. Spare me the use of the NBA as your proof.  Sports is not
   representative of society as a whole.  i.e Most people don't make as
   much as the NBA minimum, the ratio of blacks to whites is not the
   same.  Get some reputable sources. Don't bother citing KKK weekly.

WC: I went through this with the X-jammer (or whatever?!?).  I don't
    care to go researching to see who has written up studies on the matter.
    I'm not going to conduct one myself.  I'm simply looking at life 
    and pointing out the obvious.  I did not base my viewpoint on the
    NBA.  I said from the beginning that blacks through all levels
    seem to jump better than non-blacks.  I used sports because that's
    the environment where you can see living, running, breathing proof
    on the matter.  Spare me with the KKK shit, I love how you clowns 
    take a statement that says blacks seem to jump better than non-blacks
    and then create this whole other notion that that means I think 
    blacks are inferior to whites or blacks don't belong on the same
    land as whites or whatever.     

   >   >Just like there are some blacks that can't.  And, as I
   >
   >Gary:   Make that just like there are few blacks that can.
   >
   >WC:    Yeah Gary, you're right.  There are only a few blacks that can
   >       jump well.  Hard to imagine how this whole discussion got
   >       started, huh?

Gary:
   It got started because a few people like you wanted to show your
   ignorance.  You desparately want to excuse your lazyness and lack
   of success in sports by fabricating this nonsense about blacks
   being more athletically gifted.

WC: You can really work yourself into a tizzy, can't you dude? 
    Speaking of fabrication.  Where did you come up with any idea about
    my laziness or success in sports?  Well, you fabricated it.  I'm
    actually not lazy at all.  I'm actually very good in sports.  I 
    have much better than average quickness and verticle, and I'm
    pretty fast.  

Gary:
  There is a lot more that goes
   into sports and black dominance in certain sports than just this
   fantasy about athletic superiority..

   "Boo hoo, I suck because I don't have enough sun protection.
   Boo hoo hoo."  Get real.

WC: Good one, Gary.

Gary:
   As grandpa used to say to this kid I knew "Bwoy get afff yu lazy
   aass an' get some work dun"

WC: More assumption, more stupidity.

Gary:
	   As far as this crap about preordained shooting ability
   is concerned.  It's too bad you can't meet Larry Bird and expound
   your theory of preordained shooting ability.  I'm sure he would
   slap you back a few thousand times.  One for each day he was
   out there practicing his shots and moves.  The guy gets to the
   game 1hr early to get in a groove.

WC:  Ok, guy.  I suppose if you had just put in the same hours as
     Larry you would be as good as him.  Gee, just think, if you put
     in a couple more hours each day, maybe skipping school or 
     something, you would be even better!  Imagine that!  If someone
     could just explain to Chris Dudley that he's a bad shooter because
     he doesn't practice enough, I'm sure he could just turn it around.
     You know, just come out about 6 hours prior to game time to "Get
     in a groove!"

Gary:
   I can see it now, "Larry, you wasted your time practicing.
   The Gods tell me, its preordained that you will be a shooter."
   ...
   "Ow, Ow, Ow somebody call the police.  I'm getting my ass whooped.
   No no call the doctor, no no call my lawyer first.

WC: Don't quit your day job.  If this was The Gong Show, there'd be
    a lot of sore elbows around here. 

Gary:
   I used to play with this guy at Umass-Boston, major bricklayer
   1-10 on wide open shots.  Then one day I said to him that
   everytime you shoot, all I want to here you say is "count it",
   Now he hits almost all of them, has the nerve to talk trash
   to me too.  There was no change in his style.

WC: Wow.  Nevermind that last statement.  Quit your day job immediately.
    Shooting consultant, now that sounds like you.  

    So, I guess it goes like this.  
    
    Russ: shooting is based on developing the skill through practice
          and time devotion.
    Wayne: other than adjustments in technique, and limited improvement
           from repitition, shooting is based on rythm, touch, and other
           abilities that are attained genetically.
    Gary: shooting is based on hours practicing and whether or not you
          say "count it" everytime you shoot.

Gary:
   Stop shovelling this BS.  This preordained stuff is crap.
   Ooops my fault, you meant preordained for blacks, both of
   these guys are white.  I'll have to come up with a better
   example.

WC: Once again, you've conjured up what "I meant" from nowhere.
    Preordained applies to all.  I never said otherwise.
    No, don't get better examples, I may have to actually work to
    discredit them.  The ones you've used so far have been great.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro