From: jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:47:59 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1992Sep1.151907.11135@eng.ufl.edu> esj@wasp.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson) writes:

>The newer rigs 
>are jav's, which suit me fine. And the vectors do work just fine. Never 
>bounced anyone. Or maybe its the training and not some minor variations
>in the rigs.

I think training can (and does) solve 99%+ of the problem.

>Id say it is pretty obvious 
>that training a student on a SOS system is easier for the FJ instructor, 
>and is a disservice to the future JM's and future skydiver.
>
See my comment to Dale S.  I simply meant as far as new material goes,
I believe a student further along could master the dual system training 
easier than the beginner.  And be able to use it.


>And minor retrain?? I would say switching from a SOS to a two handle system
>is far from a minor retrain. Suddenly the emergency procedures you have been
>drilling for your entire student status will now most likely kill you. 
>Nothing minor here. 

Ok. Maybe not minor - certainly important to their survival.  But 
correct operation is just as important to the 1st jumper - someone
who has absolutely no experience at any part of the dive.


>My point is that I believe safe skydivers can be trained on both systems.
>Adapt as a instructor.  I know I can produce safe skydivers on both systems.
>Do you belive that YOU can not produce a safe skydiver with a two handle 
>student rig? 

Of course we can.  I didn't mean to imply that this is a critical problem to
the sport.  I currently teach the dual point system, as those are the
rigs we use (and I believe they provide adequate safety).  I have taught 
SOS systems for years as well.  I believe
the SOS has an edge on safety for low time students.  Is the difference
a significant problem?  No.  


>Novices buy used gear. Novices jump demo gear. Novices jump rental
>gear. Novices jump all kindsa gear. Novices rarely jump SOS gear after 
>student status. Novices MIGHT have a RSL. It doesn't matter. The emergency 
>procedures are the same RSL or no. 

I do not recommend signing a student off student status until they
know and can demonstrate proper dual system operation.  I just believe
we could make emergencies simpler for the beginner by shifting dual
training to later in the student progression.


>>Well hell, give `em a Sabre 120 and teach em to front riser!  Why
>>mess around with this student stuff...get `em right into the sport!
>
>I would hope a student knows about front risers and other non-standard 
>ways of controling a canopy before they graduate. 

But you don't teach it to them on their first jump.  Why not?  Because
it over complicates things - it isn't necessary for their survival 
on the next jump.  Nor is it necessary as a foundation for material
on subsequent jumps.  We give `em big docile squares because they are
safer and easier to master than smaller canopies, yet we fully expect
them to go right out and buy a smaller canopy as soon as we sign 'em off.


>But I also think you are a bit single minded about "the one true way".

I think the term is "opinionated" :-).  I ain't always like that!
If you say something emphaticly, people
who know better will inform you of reality.  (:-) 

My DZ often becomes inbred with whatever ideas the DZ powers 
wish to support.  They are sometimes
right.  Sometimes they are wrong, or too close to the trees to see the 
forrest.  I can't always tell which.  Your input (and everyone else's) 
is important and appreciated.  And when I get a lot of heat for some
comment I make, it makes me re-evaluate my position.


>...I always find myself defending
>all the other ideas. Very similer to the AFF/SL/Tandem argument we had 
>a while back. 

'sok.  A debate is fun.  Even more so over a couple pitchers
of beer.

>Ej
>(I hate pullouts too. ;-)

Bite me. ;-)

Jerry
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