HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: A question on free agency
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:56:54 GMT


Normally with free agents, their old club has to offer them salary
arbitration in order (I think) to retain the right to bargain with
them.

1) If the club fails to offer arbitration, does it still receive the
draft pick compensation?

2) Under the "repeater rights" clause, the club has to offer
arbitration within five days of the end of the season.  If they fail
to do so, the player can become an unrestricted free agent.  Does this
mean that the original club has to either keep the player or receive
no compensation?

Am I simply confused?

Thanks,
-Valentine
-- 
Clemens may not win his 4th CY, but he still rules!	tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: erude@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Erick Rudiak)
Subject: Stats?
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:45:35 GMT


	Is anyone still posting stats to this group?  I found the Elias (USA
Today?) stats that used to come in pretty handy for running my Roto league.
If anyone is getting these stats online and can post, it would be greatly
appreciated.

-- Erick
_____________________________________________________________________
                                                | 
I tell myself, hey, only fools rush in          | Erick Rudiak
Only time will tell if we stand the test of time| erude@nwu.edu
And all I know, you've got to run to win        |____________________
And I'll be damned if I get hung up on the line | "I'm not worthy..."
                                                |      \o/      \o/
    -- Van Halen, "Why Can't This Be Love"      | O__   \\  O__  \\
________________________________________________|_/__|__||__/__|_||__
From: roberto@oliveb.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Roberto Ricca)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Huge Rangers/Athletics trade
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:30:33 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Sep2.233001.26098@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <randall.715358913@moose> randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea) writes:
>>
>>IMHO, this is a great trade for the A's.    They needed another
>>starting pitcher.   You can't win a pennant if you have Kelly Downs in
>>your rotation.  Also, they needed another reliever, and Russell seems
>
>Funny, I thought that Giants did exactly that in '89.

Well, actually Downs was not in Giants rotation when they won the *PENNANT*.
He was in the rotation when they win the *DIVISION* and BTW he pitched less
than half year. He was injured - obviously nothing new with '89 Giants
pitchers.

########################################################################
# Roberto Ricca                 Email:      roberto@oas.olivetti.com   #
# 816 So. Saratoga Ave #M304    Phone: Home (+1408) 983-2293           #
# San Jose, CA  95129  -  USA          Work (+1408) 366-3558           #
#----------------------------------------------------------------------#
#           1992:   GO GIANTS  (tragic number:   14)                   #
#           September 27, 1992:   the end of an era?                   #
########################################################################
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thornley@nano.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Subject: Re: CY, MVP, ROY
Keywords: eat more moose
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 04:39:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.031801.5413@odin.corp.sgi.com> dickh@tribe.esd.sgi.com (Dick Harkness) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.231243.8781@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, mjw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Wolverton) writes:
>|
>|> >AL MVP
>|> >I need suggestions here.  I'm personally gonna stick with Eck.
>|> >McGwire was falling off, then got hurt.
>|> 
>|> As much of a god as he is on the net, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned
>|> Frank Thomas.  Eck is a decent choice too, I think.
>|
>AL MVP
>
>Although he won't get many (any?) votes, Carlos Baerga deserves mentioning as an MVP candidate for being the catalyst of the resurgent Indians...and he is having a helluva year.
>
The best and most valuable second baseman in the league is Roberto Alomar.
If Baerga is not the most valuable player at his position, he sure isn't
the MVP.  My nominations:  Martinez, Alomar, Eckersley, possibly McGwire,
Frank Thomas.  Nothing against Baerga, who is very good, but Alomar is
dominating, and I expect him to be the best 2B in the league for a *long*
time.

David Thornley
From: hambric@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Stephen Hambric)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Regarding the proposed Fielder FAQ
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:03:02 GMT
Reply-To: hambric@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Stephen Hambric)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Why in the world would you guys write a Fielder FAQ summary?
You people *live* for arguments like these.  One mention of Fielder's
alleged RBI prowess, and stathead keyboards start flying from kneejerk
impacts.  We'd take away all your fun if Fielder was banished as a topic
of discussion (along with Ripken being tired in September, Jack Morris
being a 'money' pitcher, sportswriters actually knowing something about
baseball, ...)

We non-statheads are the Yin to your Yang.  Without our (allegedly)
outrageous and statistically incorrect observations, the discussions
in this newsgroup would be a lot less lively.

Steve Hambric (hambric@oasys.dt.navy.mil)

(Fielder and Murray for AL and NL MVP,
 Frank Thomas sucks,  OPS is worthless, make *outs*, not walks, ...)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nolan@tssi.com (Michael Nolan)
Subject: Re: 'Ol George goes for 3000, BUT ...
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
Organization: Tailored Software Services, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 18:12:06 GMT

dae@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.a.elliott) writes:

>Brett has said that he will play until he gets 3000.  If he gets it this
>year, he may consider retirement after this season.  This sort of hanging on
>for personal goals may be hurting the team, because if he is on the roster
>they are pretty much forced to pencil him into the middle of the lineup.
>But no way is he up there hacking away looking for hits at the expense of
>the team.

I wonder what the value of having Brett in the lineup is at the box office?
Personally, I think he has been a lot more productive at the plate than a
few other 'name' players also in the twilight of HOF-caliber careers.  In
fact, it appears as if the quest for 3000 has put some spark back into his
bat in recent weeks.  Go for it, George!!
---
Mike Nolan
nolan@tssi.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: California quiz
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 04:38:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.042450.4205@epas.toronto.edu> binkley@epas.utoronto.ca (P. Binkley) writes:

>Question: which of the players traded by Toronto to California last
>month has a bat in Cooperstown, and why?

Rob Ducey, for breaking the record for the most at-bats to begin the season
without a hit?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu (R. Bharat Rao)
Subject: Cubs: Maddux, REALLY hard loser
Reply-To: bharat@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:55:49 GMT


Poor Greg Maddux -- at 15-10.  I heard an absolutely amazing stat
yesterday; in his 10 losses, the Cubs have scored a  TOTAL OF 3 RUNS.
7 shutouts, and 1 run thrice... I knew had some hard luck, but this is
incredible..

Jeez, give the poor guy some offense, and he would be 20-3..

Do you suppose it could be a plot on the Cubbies part to deflate his
W/L so that they will be able to resign him... Just a thought.
Anyway, since that would be actually smart, it guarantees that the
Cubs didn't do it..........

Add smileys please..

Bharat
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen)
Subject: The Ack-man Lives!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:24:44 GMT


Recently, whilst perusing rec.arts.tv, I came across the following in a post:

>	Any more questions? 
>
>	Jim Acker
>	jgacker@neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov

It looks like our favorite net.whipping.boy does rocket science as well :-)

Be very, very afraid
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
                                           ......Tower Of Power

  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511

    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
                            A SABR member since 1979
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Subject: Re: CY, MVP, ROY
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 04:17:56 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Keywords: eat more moose

In article <8#k-MW_@engin.umich.edu> martyp@engin.umich.edu (Martin Pochmara) writes:
>AMERICAN LEAGUE MVP....
>
>Fielder.....to make up for the last two years!
>still leading in RBI's
>up there in homers
>Not the same year as the last two, but dammit...he should be rewarded!
>
>				JMO,
>					Marty

Somehow, I smell a FAQ addition (right next to the Great USENET Floating 
Homosexual Flamewar)...


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) - kbos@carina.unm.edu - I'm not the AntiChrist
I AM the AntiWoofer. - Junior Stathead{tm} - I'm a shutmouthed, selfless idiot!!
Latest Attempted Compiler of the R.S.BB FAQ - Now Accepting Submissions...(hint)
Have you hugged a Dan Gladden fan today? - Dave Rossing : .531/54/214 at Denver!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: miked@pterodactyl.cis.ohio-state.edu (Michael Davey)
Subject: Re: Baseball and Billions
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:10:22 GMT

In article <BtLwpK.MGH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins) writes:

>   If the commissioner has the power to overrule the owners, then the
>owners do *not* have control.  When you claim that the commissioner
>should have these powers, you are also making a statement on what
>powers the owners shouldn't have.  It's all the same issue, and to
>try to discuss them as if they were separate doesn't make sense.

	Look, all I'm saying is the commissioner needs to have veto power
similar to the presidents, not total dictatorial power. A system of checks
and balances not unlike that of the executive, legislative, and judicial
branches of our government would make sense. By making the owners the sole
depository of power is to deny that there are other interests in the game that
should have equal say in the matters of the game. The game does not
belong solely to the owners or the fans or the players.  It is a complex
dynamic and giving sole power to the owners is to deny this fact. If the 
commissioner makes a decision and some owners don't like it, than a two-thirds
majority from both leagues over-ruling the commissioner's decision is something
I think most of us could accept. But just because a few owners are pissed
does not warrant a special meeting to try and oust the commissioner. In this
weeks BB weekly there are a couple articles on the history of owner-commissiner
conflicts and I would argue that the present system needs to be changed as it
is what allowed the ouster of Happy Chandler for integrating the major-leagues.
You only need to look at the history of baseball to find other examples of 
where the owners made stupid decisions to find evidence to support my position
that the owners should not have total power. That's all I'm saying and it is
not that unreasonable.

--Mike D.--
From: zurawski@cbnewse.cb.att.com (lawrence.w.zurawski)
Subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies, & Statistics (was Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:16:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep03.105123.10657@brtph560.bnr.ca>, psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul Jezioranski) writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.013519.8911@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg
> "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
> > In <1992Sep02.204409.2123@brtph560.bnr.ca> psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul
> Jezioranski) writes: 
> > >Any statistic you can come up with is bound to be affected by
> countless "what
> > >ifs". Keep it simple.
> > 
> > We do.
> > 
> >  Games played, runs scored, hits, walks, RBI, etc. (i.e.
> > >the basics) give a solid idea of hitting performance.
> > 
> > No, they don't.
> > 
> > And we can keep it simple by eliminating a lot of these.
> > 
> > Leave us with PAs, SLG, OBP and I'll let you eliminate all the rest.
> > 
> > Is that simple enough for you?
> > 
> 
> Sure. Simply idiotic. An example:
> 
> 	Rudy Fafoofnik: 680 Plate appearances, 1.000 SLG, 1.000 OBP
> 	
> ......	but he scored zero runs because he hit 680 two out singles and the guy
> 	behind him struck out 680 times.
> 
> Sure you can draw a "likely" conclusion from just those three stats, but
> you can draw a better conclusion from what the player himself did.
> Singles, doubles, triples, homers, runs scored, walks, at bats, and RBI
> give a better than "likely" conclusion of the player's value to the
> team, and you can calculate your three numbers from these stats. My
> contention is that adding external dependencies (such as who and how
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> many were in scoring position, who was pitching, etc) only complicates
							^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> things and leads people to draw errant conclusions like "if Jose was in
  ^^^^^^
No disagreement here.  Statistics like OBP and SLG don't involve any
external dependencies.  The external dependencies come into play when
we use a statistic like RBIs to measure a player's worth; things like
number of outs made, number of runners in scoring position, etc. then
need to be taken into account to put the RBIs in context.

> his place, he'd have 5000 RBI". But I guess that's most of the
> attraction of all these stats. 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Paul Jezioranski			|	What, me worry??
> psycho@bnr.ca				|
> Bell-Northern Research, Inc. RTP, NC	|


Another example: 

	Cecil Fafoofnik:  680 Plate appearances, 120 rbi

  ......but every time he came up, the bases were loaded.  He hit 30
	home runs, accounting for the 120 rbis, and hit into double plays
	the other 650 times.


Larry Zurawski
zurawski@ihlpm.att.com
From: jblixt@neon.cdc.com (jon blixt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Why aren't there more baseball player actors?
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:13:01 GMT
Reply-To: jblixt@mips.COM (jon blixt)
Organization: Your Organization Goes Here

Another movie Lyle Alzado appeared in was a futuristic action called
Neon City currently showing on Cinemax.  His performance was no better
or worse than the movie itself.

Jon
From: jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Home Run Rule: Lind's Hit in Dodger-Pirate Game
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:43:53 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

aardvark@locus.com (Warren Usui) writes:

>In article <BtJxuC.DLu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins) writes:
>>
>>There are rules discussing how many bases to award when a fielder
>>deflects a ball into the stands.
>>
>>6.09 "The batter becomes a runner when---
>>(g) Any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands,
>>or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the
>>batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;
>>(h) Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or
>>over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be
>>entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or
>>over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a
>>home run. ..."
>>

>What would be the ruling if the outfielder intentionally knocked the ball
>out of the park?  For example, let's say I'm playing right field and there
>is a guy on first.  Someone hits a line drive over my head that bounces up
>against the wall.  Can I hold the runner at first to third by throwing
>the ball in the stands?  I'm sure that there has got to be some ruling
>for this or else it would happen more often.

Well, technically, if you "threw" the ball into the stands, as opposed
to having "deflected" it, rule 7.05(g) would come into play:

7.05 "Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to
be put out advance--(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the
playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands... When such wild
throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire in awarding such
bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the
ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by
the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made."

Chances are, by the time you threw the ball into the stands, the runner
from first would have made it to 2nd, so the ruling would be to give
the runner home, and the batter-runner 3rd.

You're right, though.  It appears a fielder may, on rare occasions use
these rules to his advantage by deliberately depositing the ball in the
stands.  I think the umpires would rule rather harshly against this
activity, though.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illinios
         Urbana, IL
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: binkley@epas.utoronto.ca (P. Binkley)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:18:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.154631.9346@osf.org> ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.153430.8990@osf.org>, ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:
>|> ----------------
>|> 
>|> Yes, folks - this is not a hoax! I just heard an interview with Peter
>|> Gammons on a Boston radio station say that the Blue Jays have obtained
>|> David Cone from the Mets. The official announcement should be made this
>|> afternoon.
>
>  It's not official. Mets get Jeff Kent and a player to be named later. 
>  Funny, I thought all their players already had names! ;-)
>
>-Ron
>
>
>
>|> 
>|> -Ron

I assume that should be "It's NOW official", cuz it is.  My guess is
the player to be named is Sprague, and he'll go as soon as the Jays
make arrangements for another backup catcher.  He has started the last
two games (one at first and one catching).

Things look a lot better for the Jays than they did this time
yesterday.

Where is Cone in his contract?  Must be in his last year: that's the
only kind of pitcher the Jays ever trade for ;-)

Peter Binkley
binkley@epas.utoronto.ca
From: blecher@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Icarus P. Anybody)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Drabek & Bonds
Date: 26 Aug 92 01:54:26 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <MeafV0_00Uh7Q7C=1t@andrew.cmu.edu> pr0i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Pravin Devineni Ratnam) writes:

> However, Bonds is very valuable to the club. If ther realignment goes as
> planned, then the PIRATES NEED BONDS.
>
> THe Pirates should make a $33 million offer for 5 years to get Bonds,
> and then hope for the best.  Atlanta won't make Bonds an offer. I don't
> now if ther Mets will after getting burned this season. The Yankees
> might.  The Cubs should. 
>
> The Pirates are very short sighted. They wasted 1.7 million on Gibson
> because they wanted to add depth to the outfield. Can you imagine how
> many changes the Pirates will go through to find a suitable replacement
> for Bonds. They will probably waste so much time and money looking for
> players to replace Bonds' many assets. 

Hmm...  I'm going to have to disagree here.  True Bonds is perhaps the
best outfielder in the league (during the regular season, anyway), but I
just really don't think the Pirates can afford him.  Sure, they set
attendance records the past 2 seasons, but their attendance is back down
this year (largely due to the newspaper strike, supposedly).  Plus their
income from TV, etc., is a lot lower than, say, the Mets. That's the 
reality of playing in a smaller market:  you just can't pay millions of
dollars for the top stars.  That's what makes the Mets collapse all the
sweeter.  They'll just have to count on their farm system and trades for
promising prospects if they want to be competitive on a regular basis.

Gibson was a horrible deal, though. I'm not sure what they were thinking.

As for where Bonds might end up, I understand he's real big on San Diego.
I'm not sure if they have the bucks or not, but a line-up with Gwynn,
Sheffield, McGriff, and Bonds sounds really scary to me.

	- Mitch
Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:25923 rec.sport.baseball.fantasy:620 comp.sys.ibm.pc.games:11306
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Bubble Bubble Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Keeping the Statistics Simple.
Summary: Ok.  How's this for simple?
Keywords: Spira, Indictment, Photos, Co-Ed, Greasy.
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:22:13 GMT
Organization: Disposable Heroes, Inc. (Canseco Division)

>Any statistic you can come up with is bound to be affected by countless "what
>ifs". Keep it simple. 

I try to.  How about this for simple.

Instead of looking at RBI, which take the following into account:

* Number of times the hitter comes to the plate with runners on
  in front of him

* Speed and baserunning prowess of those runners

Let's look instead at On Base Percentage, which takes into account
only:

* How often the hitter hurt his team's chances for winning by making
  an out

And Slugging Percentage, which takes into account only:

* How many total bases the player accumulated while hitting


Relatively straight forward, really.  Now, there are factors which
affect these things, like the park the player plays in, but we can
adjust fairly accurately for that, whereas making an adjustment to
RBIs gets a bit sticky.  Let's have a look, then, at AL First Basemen.

Player		OBP	SLG
Fielder, C.	.318	.465
Hrbek, K.	.357	.416
Joyner, W.	.334	.393
Martinez, T.	.304	.393
Mattingly, D.	.326	.419
McGwire, M.	.390	.594
Milligan, R.	.398	.393
O' Brien, P.	.274	.365
Olerud, J.	.385	.463
Palmeiro, R.	.340	.399
Sorrento, P.	.351	.463
Thomas, F.	.447	.542
AVERAGE*	.335	.358

(Average includes players not listed here, that were deleted for
 Brevity's sake.)

Fielder plays in a park which inflates his home run total.  Fielder's
defense sucks rocks beyond description.  Fielder's baserunning skills
are an oxymoron.

You take Cecil, and his 571 RBI.  I'll take McGwire, Milligan, Olerud,
Sorrento, and Thomas anyday, and most of rest are a wash with Cecil,
only including offense.  Include Cecil's 'defense', and it's not
close.  Include his mouth, and it's not marginally close.  I can't
wait to hear him whine about not being MVP this year, and some yokel
defending him in this arena.

+--------------------+
|   August 31, 1992  |  - This black armband will signify my mourning.
+--------------------+

(33)


-- 
*   Gary Huckabay   * "So what percentage of it is imbeciles, idiots, morons,  *
* "Played 36 games  *  and other wastes of skin?"  "Currently about 25% of the *
*    in 32 days."   *  posters, and 50% of the posts."  "Have you considered   *
* "Shoulder? Me???" *  aerial spraying?" "I think Sherri has.  I'll ask."      *