Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Reconciling OT with NT
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:53:19 GMT
 <1992Dec18.025920.26701@bnr.ca> <1992Dec18.203513.20450@netcom.com> 
 <adams.724724398@spssig> <nyikos.724980720@milo.math.scarolina.edu>
Organization: SPSS Inc.


In which Dr. Peter Nykios proves that he does not understand me.  He fails
to distinguish between my religious beliefs and my refusal to apply them
to secular society.

Here we go!

nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>In <adams.724724398@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>>>bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash) writes: >
>>>forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes: >>

>>>>|>Sure, if you stop forcing death on unborn children.

>>>No one believes you, Suzanne.  You lied.  Now you're going
>>>straight to H-E-L-L!

>>No, she can conveeeeniently go to confession and say a few Our Father's and
>>Hail Mary's and she's all set.

>>>>Maddi is killing unborn children! Wow! How did you find this out?
>>>>Is this true, Maddi!?! How many have you killed?

>>>Well, I had two eggs in an omelette on Sunday, does that count?
>>>I suppose a Christian would claim I've killed hundreds of
>>>unborn children because I've never been pregnant, and allowed
>>>all those potential lives to waste away every month.

>>Hardly all...I'm a Christian, an Evangelical to boot, anti-abortion, yet
>>pro-choice.  Strange eh?

>Anti-abortion???????????????????????
Yes.  I oppose abortion.  I *personally* believe abortion to be wrong, and
to be killing unborn children.  That view is based PURELY on religious
belief, and my understanding of the process and meaning of conception in 
light of my Christian  belief.  What I *REFUSE* to do is impose that view
on any other person.  Our system of government is NOT meant to be
religious, and is meant to protect the *INDIVIDUAL* rights of each person,
as defined under our Constitution.  Under our laws, a fetus is NOT a
person.

I have said over and over again that I would in each and every case counsel
against abortion, except when the mother's life was in danger, or in cases
of rape and incest.  Even in the last two, I would personally have a
difficult time recomending abortion.

That said, abortion is legal, and is *A* responsible action in response to
an unwanted pregnancy.  As such, since I am commanded by the Bible to
follow the laws passed by the leaders of this country, I follow the laws.
I truly believe that it is improper to enforce my version of morality on
society.  As such, although I have religious beliefs about such issues as
abortion, gay rights, etc, etc, my position is that I will NEVER impose
such rules on society, and that I will treat each and every person as an
equal and with compassion.  The only people who need to be concerned about
my moral beliefs are my family and my church.

Now watch Dr. Nykios lift my statments out of context to 'prove' his point.
Any used of the above, without including ALL 3 paragraphs will constitute
an attempt to mistate my position.  Got that Doctor??

>When will you get your act together, Steve?
I have it together.  You simply fail to understand my position.

>From a post you made recently, with commentary by me in brackets.
>
>***************************  ADAMS POST ****************************
>
>Elizabeth Cornelia Green <eg1o+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>>Boy do you have some messed up ideas!  
>
>Pot.  Kettle.  Black.
>
>[He does not spare an obvious newbie.]

What's your point?  'Obvious' nebie?  So what?  Any one who posts will
receive the same type of treatment from me, irrespective of the length of
time that they have been posting.  I don't play favorites.  Everyone is
fair game.

>>You think abortions should be used as a source of birthcontrol if
>>necessary?!?  And that the practice of abstinence is a ridiculous
>>solution?!?!!  Wow you're confused.  
>
>Hmm...I wonder who is confused...
>
>[Steve Adams is more confused than Elizabeth Green was, IMO.]
Hardly.  I have a clear, well thought out, well defined opinion on the
subject.  Note well that you are confusing my religious beliefs and my
political beliefs.  The two are TOTALLY separate.

>>Abstinence is the only good method of birth control.  It's obviously the
>>only 100% certain method.  
>
>Wrong.  Abstinence does not protect one from rape.
>
>[One of TWO good statements Adams makes in this post.]
Thank you, oh thank you Dr.

>>If a couple considers themselves adult enough to engage in sex, they
>>should face the adult responsibilities that might accompany the action. 
>
>Yep.  And one of those is dealing with pregnancy.  Abortion is a
>						   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>responsible option in the face of that responsibility.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>[This is standard fare by liberal Lutherans.  In Adams' mouth,
>it is regurgitated, undigested pabulum that he swallowed whole from them.]

This position has NOTHING to do with liberal Lutherans.  You know nothing
of what you speak.  I believe that this position is WRONG from a religious
point of view.  And I had this opinion long before I was a Lutheran.  You
really don't know anything about me, and have made a huge assumption that
just isn't correct.

I am not, and never have been, a religious liberal.  My political views, on
the other hand, are libertarian.

>>And making sure that the child that results from your actions is cared
>>for is an obvious responsibility.  I strongly believe that killing that
>>child through an abortion is not facing your responsibilities.
>
>Bringing a child into the world is not always the responsible thing to do.
>
>[More undigested, regurgitated pabulum.]

From where?  I didn't simply pick that up and spit it out.  It is true.  Do
you truly believe that every single child born is born to responsible
parents in a responsible situation?  A family on welfare with 3 kids having
a 4th kid?  That's responsible???

>>Sure, sex may be fun, but be prepared to deal with all that it entails 
>>No Sex is Safe Sex.  
>
>Abortion *is* a way of dealing with it.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>[In case you haven't caught on yet!]
Note well, Dr. the word 'a'.  It is small, I admit.  But 'a' is an indefinate
article, meaning 'one of many.'  I specifically did not use the definate
article 'the', which would mean 'one and only.'  I think you spent too much
time in math class and not enough in english.

>>Everybody knows that there isn't any condom that guarantees no pregnancy
>>will result.  And they don't prevent the horrible diseases that can
>>result from sex, either.
>
>But they do help.  They give a level of protection.  One asseses the risks
>and weighs the options.
>
>>Hope I don't sound too old fashioned.  But I'm only nineteen and I've
>>already been able to figure this out.  What's the matter with the rest
>>of you?
>
>I've figured things out...I personally object to abortion...but I beleive
>it needs to be legal.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>******************************* END OF ADAMS POST *********************
>
>Of course, he has NOT figured it out, otherwise he would not have said
>the last set of highlighted words after regurgitating that pabulum.  He has
>let a bunch of Lutheran heretics--heretics to the traditions of
>Lutheranism, that is--do his figuring for him.  

'Heretic'??  Allright!  Dr. Nykios joins the club of people who have called
me a heretic!  I like it.  Anything that disassociates my Christianity from
that of Nykios and/or Forgach is just fine with me!

'Lutherans' are doing no fighting for me.  I stand on my own.  I disagree
with the Lutheran church on numerous issues.  I worship there at the moment
for a complex set of reasons which has little to do with my current
theology, and more to do with things in my past and compromise with my
wife.

It is almost certain that I will be worshiping at a different church next
year.  A truly evangelical, fundamentalist one.  Then what are you going to
slam me with??

By the way...'guilt by association' is a logical fallacy.  I would have
thought a published, PhD in Math would have known better.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558