HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Attending a More Traditional Service
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:41:58 GMT
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County

How refreshing: a religious dispute that  does not involve Orthodoxy!

Laura, I think that the use of the term "treif" was unfortunate.
What the person meant (I presume) was that the service wasn't
as traditional as he/she was used too.  But you shouldn't be
overly angered.  I go to an Orthodox synagogue, but I'm sure that
some traditionalists might find the service (with an English 
sermon, and some piyyitim skipped, and modern tunes for some
parts of the service) treif too.  I would translate "treif" as
"too modern for my liking."

As far as the early German Reform movement adopting some Protestant
practices, I don't have sources at hand, but I suspect that any 
standard history of Judaism would confirm the fact.  What got
borrowed was sometimes outrageous (by contemporary standards),
like Sunday services in place of Saturday, but sometimes seems
quite reasonable (like sermons in the vernacular).  I hope Daniel
Faigin is reading this; he often serves as scj's authority on
the Reform movement, and will certainly correct me if I'm wrong.)


-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Jews on the US Supreme Court
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:36:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.150444.14502@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@emerald.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
>
>I was playing Tradition (basically Jewish-Trivial Pursuit), and got a
>question about the first Jewish US Supreme Court Justice.  I guessed
>Louis Brandeis because I figured that he (Brandeis) was the *only*
>Jewish Supreme Court Justice.  I was wrong.  (Unfortunately I do not
>have the question card with me, and I don't remember the name of the
>correct answer).
>
>How many Jewish Supreme Court Justices have there been in the US?  
>At least two (Brandies, and the man from the Tradition question)?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gedaliah Friedenberg
>-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
>-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
>-=-Michigan State University
>
>                   


I recall Felix Franfurter,Arthur Goldberg, and Abe Fortas.  I think
Frankfurter was the first.  President Johnson talked Arthur
Goldberg into resigning to take the post of UN ambassador in order
to give hive friend Fortas a seat.  I believe that Fortas was
forced to resign because of a scandal and there have been no Jews
on the court since.

_______________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz        |    Im ain ani li mi li             |
| H_Markowitz@att.com     |    Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha      |
|_________________________|____________________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Hebrew Fonts
From: Mike S. <MSTBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Wednesday, 14 Oct 1992 16:09:07 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

   Is there anyone who has access to Hebrew fonts for Banner Mania?
   I need a copy very soon, and would really appreciate it if it
   can be sent to me somehow.

                             Thanks
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: concert
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:43:07 GMT

From umeecs!zip.eecs.umich.edu!fields Fri Oct 16 12:39:57 EDT 1992
Article: 4 of alt.music.jewish
Newsgroups: alt.music.jewish
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Dr. Matt)
Subject: random info
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: Shofar Trombone Khad Gadya Mi Khamokha
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:04:31 GMT

Greetings.  Today my site JUST began to receive this newsgroup,
so its regular readers haven't had a chance to get this news.

Concert, 17 November 1992 (Wednesday Night) 8 pm in Las Cruces, NM, USA
of the Mesilla Valley Community Band will include the premiere of my
composition "Call of the Shofar" for four trombones, which features
transcriptions of the shofar blasts as I learned them by aural tradition
(not per mis.nah Rosh Hashanah), and a double fugue on a high-holiday tune
and (from the calendar antipode) Khad Gadya.  I believe it's a free concert,
although I've never been to New Mexico, so I don't really know, but 
in any case it should be a blast! :-)

Feel free to write to me for more information or to fill my mailbox with
flames.
==============================================================================
                _        || Private Teacher of Music Composition and Theory.
               / \  0    || FINALE (r) Notation User.
               o  | 0    || 1310 Packard St. No. 2, Ann Arbor, MI 48104 USA
Dr. Matthew H.   / ields || Phone 313-936-5605 days, 313-769-4836 eves.
               /         || Internet fields@eecs.umich.edu
==============================================================================





Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: More Questions
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:02:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.164441.28834@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.191604.9683@techbook.com> bferguso@techbook.com (Robert Ferguson) writes:
|>What is considered as inspired by God in all the literature?  Is it the
|>Hebrew bible only or is the Mishna (beyond the Torah) included?  What about
|>the Gemara, this is just commentary is'nt it? and the Midrash, are these
|>just commentary only?  Someone mentioned that liberal Jews do not accept the
|>oral law as inspired; does this, therefore, mean that all other Jews accept
|>the entire Talmud as inspired.

>1) The Torah (five books of Moses only) were not only divinly
>   inspired, but were divinely authored.
>2) The prophets and scriptures were divinely inspired, but they were
>   written by men.
>3) The Oral tradition was given directly to Moses.  It was passed on
>   via word of mouth for many many generations.  The Mishna (and the
>Talmud and all the commentaries) is based on this Oral tradition, but
>is not the literal word of the Oral traditions.  It is a huge
>compilation of discussions designed to clarify and explain the Oral
>traditions, since the original word-of-mouth wording was lost long
>ago.  The decisions of the Rabbis in these works are considered
>binding as if God, himself made them.

>The liberal Jews believe that part 3 is purely a concoction of the
>Rabbis, and has no basis in Jewish Law.  They believe that since a
>bunch of men made it up (a premise the Orthodox deny 100%) it can be
>accepted, altered or discarded at will.  Obviously, some groups are
>more liberal than others.

|>What is the Judaic view of the biblical creation materials?  Is it a
|>creationist type outlook or is it all allegorized away?

>A bit of both.  The words in the Torah are considered fact, but there
>are different ways to read the same words.

There are many liberal Jews who do not even accept much of the Torah as
the literal word of God.  Also, much that is not mentioned above can be
considered as having some measure of Divine inspiration.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Sukkah at work?
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:16:08 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: CPLS13@email.mot.com (Steven_Cohn)

In article <CPLS13-141092092818@145.1.92.160>, CPLS13@email (Steven_Cohn) writes:
>Does anyone know of an employer (outside of Israel) that allows its
>employees to erect a Sukkah on their property?

I've been told that Rothenberg Towers, an office building (across the
street from Bank Leumi), here in Philadelphia, has a sukkah on its
topmost plaza.  I've also been told that Mr Rothenberg is Orthodox.

Out in California, where the living is easy, folks put a palm frond on
top of their car's open sun deck.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:37:35 GMT

In article <22562@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.152611.20469@umbc3.umbc.edu>
shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>I did, of course, direct this question at Mr. Saal, who has not replied
>yet.  But if the best reply that you, Mr. Shimoff, can give is no more
>than a guess concerning a guess made by Mr. Saal about Mr. Pinkas's
>motives I submit that this is a pretty lousy support indeed for what is
>no more than an ad hominem argument.

I saw no reason to comment as I saw your only input was a diatribe
against my use of the word "rationalization" and a comment that I was
doing as much rationalization.

>Let Mr. Saal respond to Mr. Pinkas's point of view directly, instead of
>trying to belittle it.

I was not "belittling" as much as attempting to make sure new readers
understood that Mr. Pinkas' viewpoint.  Now that he's posted more - enough
to make it obvious that he does not care a whit about Jewish law - my
comments are probably superfluous (unless my introduction was what
prompted further comment from Mr Pinkas :-).

>> I can imagine two good reasons for opposition to intermarriage.  First,
>> there are halakhic objections; these, of course, will not be convincing
>> to those who do not accept halakha.

>Fine.  But as you note, this is hardly convincing to the great majority
>of Jews, let alone to a non-Jew.

I don't know that.  After all, it was a non-Jew who posted the question in
the first place.  My assumption was that he sincerely wanted to know the
Jewish perspective and he's received a full spectrum of same.

>> Everything I know about Sam (and about almost all other scj posters)
>> suggests that he (and they) value Judaism, and want to ensure its
>> continuity.

>Except that this brings us, again, to the discussion of what "Judaism"
>really is.  You surely realize by now that the view that it is defined
>by Orthodox religious standards is held by a very small minority.

Except that Orthodox, Conservative, and (even) Reform reject intermarriage
as appropriate for Jews.  What they do after the intermarriage has occured
may differ.  Asking unaffiliated Jews or Jews that reject Judaism whether
Jews should intermarry  and expecting a Jewish answer is hardly to look
for a Jewish-knowledgable opinion.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: murray@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (murray kahl)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: religion
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:46:57 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

I have just been told that the Hebrew word for religion (I assume dat) is 
a relatively new word, as there was no need for it in Hebrew. The word 
being of western origin and a western concept. My melon, unfortunately, 
is certainly not the equivalent of the OED and leaves me at a 
disadvantage in discussing the etymology of Hebrew.
I would appreciate thoughts concerning this statement and some ides as to 
how to search for an etymological root in Hebrew as my Alcalay melon is 
worthless in this respect.
I couldn't help but notice that the word emunah is used for both faith 
and belief and would appreciate some commentary of this.
Thanks in advance
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: * Yeshu ? *
Keywords: pun
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:43:38 GMT

In <1992Oct16.161803.26311@news.columbia.edu> jbaltz@hebrew.cc.columbia.edu (Jerry B Altzman) writes:

>In article <1992Oct16.013640.8221@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>>In article <2682@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>>dg = gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
>>>dg: There is no n+1 "coming" for n not equal to zero.
>>>me: must n be an integer?
>>>dg: No.  But it must be real.
>>>Perhaps imaginary values of n are for occasions that the mashiach
>>>almost came but didn't?
>>You raise a very complex issue, indeed.
>You can't imagine the magnitude of it. 
The limit of your complex analysis seems to tend back towards
a whole field of real values, assuming that the angle of your
approach is not leaning to much towards the imaginary.



--
Eli Chiprout
Dept. of Electronics
Carleton University	
emc@doe.carleton.ca	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: here we go again....
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:43:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.141415.19787@yang.earlham.edu> uril@yang.earlham.edu (Uri J. Lessing) writes:
>In article <1992Oct6.160318.18621@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct6.134149.26842@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>>In article <1992Oct05.135516.4687@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
>>>nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>>
>>>>You had a monopoly on the media for the past 40 years. Is it too much
>>>>if the Arabs side presented their case now?
>>>
>>>Don't forget the banks.  Jews controlled all those, too.  We also
>>>controlled all the bakeries, and swimming pool cleaning franchises.
>> 
>> And when we get to dominate women's professional wrestling, our
>> goals will be complete! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>And then are true world domination will almost be complete when we 
>monopolize all the 7-11s in the world!!! HAHHAAHHHAHAAHHHHA!

Not until we can solidify our control of the Teamsters Union, which
delivers our porn-magazines to the 7-11s!


>
>(hey gang, don't just read this stuff add your own and create the first 
>cascade on this newsgroup!)
>-- 
>
>Uri J. Lessing |  Earlham College |  Richmond, Indiana


-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:17663 soc.culture.african.american:9982
From: sbhimji@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Sam Bhimji)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Farrakhan, Malcom X and Jews
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 11:56:31 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

- an outspoken speaker, had been able to attract the media in this country
- much more than this his counter-part, Imam Warith Deen Muhammad.
- Let me reiterate again, Louis FarraKhan is not a Muslim (in the traditional
- sense) and should not be equated with late Malik Shahbaaz (Malcom X).
- =
- - HS, a Muslim.

What was the purpose of MMI (Muslim Mosque, Incorporated.) that Malcolm 
had started up before his death? I read about it, but nowhere did it tell 
it's significance...

Oh yes, while in London this past summer, I came across a very 
interesting article about the NOI and Farrakhan. It dealt with his ties 
with the KKK and such..very bizarre. If I can find it, I will post it.


Sam Bhimji              sbhimji@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Adopted children
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:30:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.195833.28747@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>Sounds like its time to drag out the tale of Sean Ferguson,
>the Russian Jew.

>I hope there's someone out there that hasn't heard this one.

And that means it's also time for "Sam Ting"; same hope.

Max Cohen had heard that officials at Ellis Island  were somewhat
antisemitic sowhile standing in line he listened to the official approve
and reject those ahead of him.  Sure enough, almost everyone with a Jewish
sounding name ahead of him was being rejected.  Fortunately the person
before him had a good, Western European name and sure enough he got
through.

"What is your name?" intoned the official to a worried Max.

(thinking quickly, Max reasoned that if the previous person got through,
so should he)  "Same thing"

Scribbling on the form, the official said: "very good Mr. Sam Ting.
Take this form to the next line.  And welcome to America!"
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lazer@intacc.uucp (Lazer Danzinger)
Subject: Re: PLEASE!  I need your help!  Help me keep this love alive!
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:51:29 GMT
Organization: Inter/Access' Matrix BBS

Avi Frydman writes:
>
>I went to a special shiur last night given by Rabbi Yisochar Frand here in
>Baltimore.  He spoke of a recent trip he made to South Africa at the behest
>of Ohr Somayach to present shiurim to the hundreds and hundreds of Bale Tshuvah
>who have been returning to traditional Judaism. He stated that there were many
>theories about why so many assimilated SA Jews were becoming religious.  Some
>related to the turmoil in So. Africa, etc.  
>
>He believed, however, that it might also be explained by a visit to SA in
>the 1930s by the Ponivicher (sp) Rov.  
>...  The seeds sown in the 30's are now bearing fruit.
>
	You don't suppose the phenomenon is any way related to the fine
	work and self-sacrifice of scores of Lubavitcher emmissaries, do
	you? And the many Hebrew schools, camps, synogogues and classes
	they have organized? Naw... Too far fetched... 

----
Rabbi Lazer Danzinger
MASHIACH IS ON THE WAY-- Be a Part of It!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Heroes in the Hebrew Bible
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:06:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.212136.5563@leland.Stanford.EDU> miriah@loro-next.Stanford.EDU (Claire Bacher) writes:
>The heroes and heroines of the Hebrew Bible (eg., Abraham, Moses, Samuel,  
>David, Ruth, Deborah) although noble in various ways, are also flawed.   
>What does this suggest about the moral values of the Hebrews and their  
>concept of heroes ?

The moral values are clearly stated.  If humans, Jewish or not,
don't always succeed in meeting these values is it the fault of the
values or of the people themselves?

Perhaps your expectations of the Bible is that of a fairy tale, with
the good kings and queens, princes and princesses being perfect in
every way, and the evil villians lacking any redeeming features
whatsoever.  Perfect heroes?   Perfect villians?   Makes for good
bedtime stories.

To me, the fact that the Hebrew Bible does present its "heroes" with
warts and all, makes it all the more real to me.  The people I know,
starting with me, are not perfect.  If the people in the Bible
were truly perfect in every way, I would find it hard to believe.

But the Bible shows us, right in the beginning of Genesis, that
people are not perfect.  They lie and deceive and kill.  Adam and
Eve and Cain and ...

At best, we can look at the totallity of a person's life and think
overall: that was a good life or  a bad life.  But only G-d knows for
sure.  No one but G-d is really able to balance the good and bad a
person has accomplished, and the effort someone has done to make up
for bad deeds, and  make a final judgment, a final grade of that
person's life.

The Bible is also careful to point out that great people are held to
a much higher standard by G-d than not-so-great people.  Moses, for
all his greatness, does one seemingly minor foul up, and is punished
by not being able to lead the people into the land he has guided
them towards for 40 years!  In the end, only G-d can weigh and judge
how we have lived our lives.

But the Bible is the blueprint, explained by the sages over the
centuries, for the rules we should follow to live our lives.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM (chiba)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Whence the minyan?
Date: 8 Oct 92 21:12:33
Organization: Sun MegaSystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: chiba
In-reply-to: ptyaxel@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu's message of 8 Oct 92 16:04:00 GMT


In article <Bvt8nt.CLq@acsu.buffalo.edu> ptyaxel@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Seymour Axelrod) writes:


   What is the origin of the requirement for 10 men?  I recently told someone
   who asked that it was post-biblical, but I am now not so sure.  In any case, 
   where is it written?  Thanks.


See tractate Megillah; the discussion there is tied up with what is a
"city". It turns out that a "city" is a place where there are 10
"botlanim" (people available to make up a minyan at any time). If
memory serves, the "proof text" comes from the argument between
Abraham and HaShem regarding the (then proposed) destruction of Sodom.



--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Keith H. Bierman    keith.bierman@Sun.COM| khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM
SunPro 2550 Garcia MTV 12-40             | (415 336 2648) fax 964 0946
Mountain View, CA 94043  <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 1992
From: slonim@ilx057 (Slonim Edwin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Handicappers on El Al
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:18:34 GMT
Organization: Intel
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

friedenb@sapphire.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:
: 
: I have a friend who is confined to a wheelchair.
....

El Al carries many many wheelchair passengers, I usually see 5 or 6 on every
flight.  (Their boarding area near gate 1 in Tel Aviv is right next to the
King David Lounge that I use).

They take you in a wheelchair up to the door of the plane (by elevator, then
special vehicle on stilts like a mobile lounge), boarding you early
so that you can be helped to your seat.  

On arrival in NY you go out the jetway, and then by elevator to the customs
area.  In both cases I have always seen wheelchair passengers with El Al
provided assistance, including clearing customs etc.  You may have to wait
until the other passengers have gone through and the passageways are clear.

The reverse direction is similar.

The second issue is the bathrooms, and I don't know what to suggest.  It
would depend on his handicap and degree of mobility if he would need a
special appliance or other solution.  Anyway, I am not aware of any
difference between airlines in this respect.  They all fly the same planes
with the same toilets.

In business class, he could possibly take his own wheelchair on board, and it
would make it easier to reach the bathroom.  Also, there is a curtain there
over the bathroom entrance, and a sort of anteroom, so perhaps he could even
go by himself and not close the door...


: 
: There are two problems (as he explains it):
: 
: Boarding El Al in New York is not Handicapper accessable (you have to go
: down that fight of stairs) and getting off in Israel is by going down a 
: staircase onto the tarmac.
: 
: AND
: 
: Once being helped out of his wheelchair (into his seat on the plane) he
: is unable to get around.  He claims that even with his experienced
: bladder he cannot sit for 11-14 hours without going to the bathroom.
: He is a big guy (around 5'10" 180lbs) and could be carried to the 
: bathroom if necessary, but he would rather find a better solution.
: 


Moadim Lesimcha,


--
Edwin Slonim, Intel Software Products, Haifa, Israel, slonim@iil.intel.com
"God is real unless declared integer"-anon   Disc: my own firmly held opinion
   phone (011)+972-435-5910, fax (011)+972-435-5674 voicemail (916)356-2005
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish