HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:53:56 GMT

I've hesitated some time to get involved with this discussion, which, as
several people have pointed out, is in most ways a waste of time.  But
let me point out one or two things.

(1) A thing can be studied scientifically without being a "science."
    Thus one can have (at least in the way people speak in Europe)
    "scientific" history.  This does not refer to "cliometrics," but
    to the use of a certain approach to evidence and inference from
    evidence.
(2) A thing can be studied using techniques derived from the natural
    sciences, without being a "science."  Thus one can study the way
    in which (some) writers revise their drafts by using infrared or
    UV photography.  Or one can study acoustical aspects of music,
    or neurological aspects of music.  None of this, of course, is
    the same as studying music in the sense that a musician studies
    music.  But the same person can do both things, and doing both
    may help both -- as when Goethe studied both painting and color
    theory.

Any art or craft can be done "scientifically" or "unscientifically."
But even the people who speak about "the science of boxing" probably
do not mean that boxing is the same sort of activity that physics
or chemistry are.  But saying that someone boxes "scientifically"
or "unscientifically" is neither nonsense nor (necessarily) mere
metaphor.

As an experiment, I will leave the construction of the a fortiori
argument with respect to magic to the ingenuity of the reader.

--LeGrand
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: OES and Pentagrams
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:54:13 GMT
Reply-To: tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney)
Organization: A Secret Crypt in Solomon's Temple

Excerpts from netnews.alt.magick: 5-Apr-92 Re: OES and Pentagrams Peggy
Brown@ubvmsd.cc.bu (1128)
>> Sounds sexist to me.

In article <4dsFT3O00Vo9FVN0kK@andrew.cmu.edu> sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu
(Shawn Clayton Knight) writes:
>It was founded to provide something for women.  Your term should, if
>anything, be "counter-sexist".

That's right.  As proof of the non-sexism of the thing, every Masonic
Lodge has a representative from the Order of the Eastern Star installed
as an officer.  She is known as the "Revered Patroness", and provides
advice and liason services to the poor silly Masons.  Given the
symmetry of the situation, how could there be sexism in the Masonic
patronage of OES?
-- 
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

"Don't talk to me about disclaimers!  I invented disclaimers!"
    - The Censored Hacker
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: kditto@isis.cs.du.edu (Kimborly Ditto)
Subject: Re: The Magic Of David Copperfield
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 21:51:06 GMT

In article <25VuiB3w164w@Bogus.COM> phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phant






























>
>Hmm, I don't know.  But, I will post that krell helmet article if anyone
>is interested.  I don't know how to make one, but if someone does, I do
>want to try it!

please!!  Post it , it sounds interesting.  If there isn't enough interest
about it, e-mail it to me, please!



>* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe

--Athena
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Friday, 10 Apr 1992 08:41:09 EDT
From: John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: masonic morals & dogma
 <1992Apr9.222445.1512@samba.oit.unc.edu>
 <1992Apr9.224801.2178@samba.oit.unc.edu>

It would seem to me that the "naturalistic" explanation for Masons excluding
women can be found in Lionel Tiger's _Men In Groups_.  This anthropologist
points to the universality of men's groups across time and in different
cultures, and sees this as related to the need for male solidarity in
the hunt.

An esoteric explanation of the practice of excluding women was given to
me by a fellow Mason who is also a priest of the Liberal Catholic Church.
His explanation is that the different psychological/spiritual makeup of
men and women would require that women perform some of the rituals in
reverse (left-handed) from the male version.  Thus, it would be difficult
to integrate male and female ritualistic practices together.  This
explanation also applies to ritualistic practices in his church.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: rlewis@csws4.ic.sunysb.edu (Robert Lewis)
Subject: Full Moon
Originator: rlewis@csws4.ic.sunysb.edu
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:55:39 GMT


Lets stop all this bickering over who's right and wrong. We all
started with magick because of a need in our lives and magick
works only with what you believe. So go out tonight, use your spells
and enjoy the full moon. Magic is a very individualistic thing and
who is to say whats right or wrong. If it works for you, USE IT.
enjoy and live. Blessed be


Merry meet, Merry part, and Merry Meet Again

                               Bob (the six of cups) Lewis
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:49:13 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr10.132459.27045@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>There are some researchers currently studying the possibility of
>applying Chaos mathmatics to brain activity patterns.   Interesting idea.
>
>Do Chaos magicians actually study Chaos math, or do they borrow the
>term and general concept primarily ?   

Whoa!  Radical.  You mean that Chaos magick borrows the term from chaos
theory, rather than from the philosophical/religious/phenomenological 
term that chaos theory borrowed it from?  How post modern...;-)


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 14 Apr 92 11:58:37 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England

In article <1992Apr14.020258.13835@ccu.umanitoba.ca> mayor@ic14.umeeng writes:
>In article 10514@gdr.bath.ac.uk, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>>
>
>Bite me.  My results are FOR ME, MYSELF, and I ALONE.  I don't care if
>anyone else accepts my hypotheses, theories, or results from this domain.

Then why not ignore my questions?  Why do you have to blast me for it?


>>Since you refuse to present experiments and results, then I can only conclude
>>that you are deluded and not to be trusted.
> 
>  You do not need to lecture me on the scientific method.  I am a 
>scientist, and an engineer.  The scientific method is my friend.  It
>has helped me understand and quantify the world around me.

My point was directed at Josh and Gerald.  The point I'm trying to 
make is that I don't accept anyone's claims of being an authority
on a subject unless they are willing to present evidence to back it up.

>  
>  Who cares if anyone else should accept my claims?  ...I don't.
>

Fine, then stay in the closet.

>  I WILL actually share my results with others that wish to learn, grow,
>understand, etc., but I will NOT share them with self-righteous-one-method-
>is-good-for-everything-scientists-with-blinders-on. 

Thanks for the complement.
>
>  Take a look at your assumptions about magick.  As a scientist, you should
>know that the way you create the question determines the kind of results
>that you are already expecting to find. (ie. Hey Bob, what is it in the
>Asparagus that enhances your smell-sense so that you can smell the stench of
>your urine better?  Moot point, Doug.  The asparagus just makes my urine
>stink, that's all.)  Even if people can accept and understand your
>scientific tunnel vision, you won't get any useful information until
>you can ask the question correctly.  

I don't agree.  Strong evidence doesn't require carefully worded questions.  
>
>  And, as always, the best way to find something out is...INVESTIGATE it
>YOURSELF!

What do you think my questinaire was about?
>
>  Until that time, go back to your log-periodic paper and your
>oscilliscope trace.  Perhaps they will provide you with the objective
>reality that you need.

I don't use log-periodic paper or an oscilliscope.  
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 12 Apr 92 00:07:52 GMT

Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:

>In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (joshua Gelle
>wrote:

> JG> the OTO, I am told, requires payments for various initiations. quite
> JG> large
> JG> payments, too, once you get into the higher grades.

>0 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $20 a year dues
>1 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $20 a year dues
>2 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $40 a year dues
>3 degree OTO   $20 initiation fee  $60 a year dues

hmmm...I thought the OTO had nine degrees. have they changed it?

> JG> me, I have never joined any groups.

>Why not?

because I don't like politics and I have never seen a group without same
is one reason. because I don't like hierarchies. because I don't like oaths
(you will see in a bit one reason why).

josh
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Please REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:19:17 GMT

Elisheva writes:

>ALso, for personal reasons, AANY protection magick would be appreciated.

the most effective protection magick is not believing  that it is
possible for anything magickal to harm you. your default worldview
should include memes to the effect of 'none of this stuff is real;
it is not possible for anyone to harm me magickally. any worldviews
that you adopt temporarily for the purpose of whatever work you 
happen to be doing are totally beside the point.

let's nip this one in the bud, folks, I am not prepared to wade
through round two (or whatever).

josh
From: windsphire@wizard.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:20:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: wizard.9APR92.16201277
Organization: UMS

>What is reality?  
I like aunt Lily's answers

	It was once a primitive method of crowd control that got
	out of hand.
or
	Its ok now and then, but as I lifestyle I find it too
	restrictive.

>Believing in dichotomies leads to hardening of your logic.

Hey, you either believe in dichotomies or you don't.

	-Windsphire

	'For me the only realist is the visionary because he 
	 bears witness to his own reality' Federico Fellini	 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:31:41 GMT

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

>Tagi was communicating with me, but has stopped since the flamewar began.
>I was also starting to get some useful info from Michael Glosson (sp?).

hee hee hee.

>>I don't owe you any explanations.  Don't have to justify anything to your 
>>satisfaction.  Noone does.  You have to figure things out for yourself.
>>

>Fine, then why didn't the people that didn't want to give me information,
>just leave me alone so I could communicate with the ones that did.  I know
>why, because they want people to think they've got something but are 
>unwilling to share it. 

some time after you started posting I posted explicit and detailed 
instructions for the performance of sex magick. if you are really
interested in proving or disproving things, I suggest you try these
techniques. They are quite simple, the hardest part may be aquiring
the ability to concentrate single-mindedly andit doesn't usually 
take more than a month or two of work to aquire this ability, if 
you really work at it.

josh
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:38:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Please REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

Joshua Geller writes:
>
>Elisheva writes:
>
>>ALso, for personal reasons, AANY protection magick would be appreciated.
>
>the most effective protection magick is not believing  that it is
>possible for anything magickal to harm you. your default worldview
>should include memes to the effect of 'none of this stuff is real;
>it is not possible for anyone to harm me magickally. any worldviews
>that you adopt temporarily for the purpose of whatever work you 
>happen to be doing are totally beside the point.
>

I use a technique essentially similar to Josh's, but I'll add some more 
comments. 

In our day-to-day lives we allow people to have power over us in many 
different ways, most of them subtle. When I say to myself "I respect her
opinion" I have given some power to someone; at some time she may say something
which will only hurt because "I respect her opinion". Most people grant
power to managers, friends, lovers, politicians etc. and by that I mean that
we allow them the opportunity to hurt or influence us because we have
a particular view of our identity, the "kind of person we are". 

One of the things magicians do (certainly this one) is to stocktake how we
give power to people; it is hard to have power if you give it away without
being aware of it. This may sound rather intellectual, but it isn't; once
one becomes aware of it, the trade, the profit and loss in power is 
as tangible and physical as being thirsty.

Suppose you feel threatened and psychically imperilled by a magician. The more
you construct elaborate defenses, the more you are handing power to the
other person. Every defensive ritual you carry out is a declaration
of your own weakness, and worse still, it reinforces the channel you
want to close off. Defensive rituals might work if you have a total
conviction in their efficacy, but as long as you adopt the posture of
a victim you are welcoming the possibility of being shafted. I find this hard
to explain, because I am trying to explain things I have felt directly when
I've been involved in the occasional battle of wills.

I think Josh's way is as good a way as any of declaring, like Alice,
that "you're all just a pack of cards".

Colin

 

 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: fkhan@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Ceremonial Mysticism--Reading List
Organization: Clark University
Date: 7 APR 92 00:14:21 GMT

thank you for posting this list. I generally get lost and confused (though
fascinated!) in occult stores and never know what to look for -- I do have one
request -- can you send this message to me directly so I can print it out -- I'mnot very familiar with this bb and am learning about it slowly -- just like
I'm learning about magick.  If you'd be interested in corresponding about it
I'd be willing ... in hope and in spring time -- fk
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: OES and Pentagrams
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:44:23 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr4.125051.1187@bvc.edu> vanmetergeor@bvc.edu (PSICat) writes:
>> What is the OES?
>	If I am not mistaken, It stands for the Order of the Eastren
>Star.  It is either the daughters or the wives of the Masons.  But
>then again I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

The OES is the Order of the Eastern Star, an adult, mixed sex (albeit
primarily female) auxiliary to the masons.  Young female masonic family
members are welcome in the Rainbow Girls.  Young men join DeMolay.  (Is 
that spelled right?)

Although I have heard tell of wonderful OES groups and RB groups, the ones
in my home town were to wimpy, socially-vain, and generally unmasonic in
character for words...

Shava
/* daughter, wife, and maybe someday mother of masons */
From: rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Enochian Magick (a la John Dee)
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:07:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.1992Apr7.150722.28017
Organization: UB

haynes@apple.com (Charles Haynes) writes:

>In article <1992Mar25.021510.8871@acsu.buffalo.edu>, rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski) writes:
>> 
>> 	Yes, but Geometry is mostly silly Greek hand-waving and bad
>> assumptions, unless you do it non-Euclideanly.  Just Say No to
>> Aristotelian Logic!

>Non-euclidean geometry is based on Aristotelian logic. Classic
>Geometry is included in (a special case of) non-Euclidean geometry.

	*Some* non-Euclidean geometry is based on Aristotelian logic.
However, non-Euclidean geometry includes a very great deal, and quite a
bit of it is also non-Aristotelian.  

	Just Say No To Binary Thought!

>You are a fool.

	YES!  And it's fun!  And it's enlightening!  And one gets a pretty
fair amount of satisfying personal relationships out of it!  I encourage
you to be a fool as well!  It's a lot more fun than being a sourpuss!

Luck
Rick
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Magick & Astral Projection
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 22:21:30 GMT

cs202315@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs202315) writes:


>  Would Astral Projection fall under the field of Magick?

Some will tell you yes, some will tell you no.
IMO: definitely.
However, I don't do it, so I have only theoretical knowledge, if you are 
considering asking questions.  Let Tony do the Travelling--he likes it! :-)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Where to start
Date: 15 Apr 92 09:50:55 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk

r9h@pandanus.cs.ntu.edu.au (Ecto the Green) ...

>I have been living under the impression that to reach a goal, you
>must start somewhere.

Apart from those in sci.philosophy.meta, who would probably spend the
next ten years arguing with you over exactly what you mean by that
sentence... :-) Yes.

>Under this impression, I am imploring to those who know to give me
>some sort of starting point, so that my goal of reaching knowledge of
>Magick, and if Fate has it, use of the aforementioned, may be
>reached.

I think that several points are worth making here.

        (i) What makes you think I know any better than you - I or
        any other contributer to this newsgroup?

        (ii) You obviously have some conception of what *you* mean by
        magick: Be aware that it may not be - and probably is not -
        what others mean by magick.

        (iii) You have your starting point: it is where you are.
        At the risk of introducing Hippy Dippy terminology - Be Here
        Now is my recommended starting point.

>Please reply with whatever you see as fitting to respond to my
>query.

I have. One further point: There are those here who have set out to
seek magick - for whatever reason, and there are those who were
looking for something else, and found in magick a reasonable picture
and explanation of their personal experiences. This is a difference.
The former set out to create certain experiences, and more or less
succeed. Their magick is the magick of achievement.

Others - myself among them - were not looking for magick at all, but
stumbled upon in in our search for explanations and descriptions of
the paranormal or whatever.

To a large extent, what you find depends on what you are looking for:
and there are always many possible explanations for what you do find.

In addition, many, myself included, regard Wicca as a valid and
sometimes more supportive introduction to the magickal arts than
ceremonial magick. Alt.pagan is a good place to start looking for
wiccans.

>Rohan.

>r9h@pandanus.ntu.edu.au


However - surely someone out there is willing to post a description
of a simple visualisation ritual - what is the standard one - the
lesser banishing wotsit?

You know - four compass points and flaming pentagrams?
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 08:48:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Any Ideas on things not understood.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

Athena writes:

>I have a very interesting book in my room right now that you might want to
>read.  It's called:
>
>_Parallel Universes_ by Fred Alan Wolf.  Published by Touchstone Books,
>ltd, at $9.95, softcover.  ISBN: 0-671-69601-7
>
>The book describes the theory of parallel universes using quantum
>mechanics for the lay-person.  I haven't gotten all the way through it,
>but from the sound of your post, you might want to check it out.
>

The problem with an idea such as Everett's `Many Worlds' interpretation of
quantum mechanics is that it is completely speculative, even among
physicists.

Some interesting work which I track is being done by David Deutsche at
Oxford University. He has been looking at the theory of
computing (Turing) machines with quantum mechanical behaviour - instead
of a classical Turing machine with a paper tape and a deterministic
state machine he uses bras and kets and Hamiltonians and S matrices
and observables and all the other goodies of QM. He claims that such a
machine has behaviour which is different from a classical Turing machine,
in that it can sometimes (non-deterministically) provide solutions to
computing problems which are "hard" in a particular sense, and that the
only way of understanding this behaviour is by using Everett's intepretation
of quantum mechanics. He also thinks it many be possible to construct
a quantum computer (using squids or Josephson junctions or other 
non-classical devices) to test these ideas.

I can't wait. 

Colin 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ksarno@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Ken Sarno)
Subject: Looking for people in Eugene, OR
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:19:53 GMT

I am finishing up my term here at the Univ. of Illinois
at the end of this summer, and will be looking for a job
somewhere around August.  Anyway, one of the places I'm interested
in relocating to is Eugene.  I would definately appreciate it
if anyone who is living there now, or who has lived there
recently would get in touch with me.  Some of questions I like
answered include: what the town is like, what organizations
exist ("enlightend" Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, Other) ?
I also  would like to get to know some people there, before I move.

My own background is quite eclectic.  I draw from a number of
traditions (Christian Mystic, Pagan, Native American) in
constructing my understanding of reality.  It's hard to say
much more than that in a few sentences.

Thanks in advance,
Ken Sarno

send e-mail to: ksarno@psych.uiuc.edu