From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: SKOPIE "GYPSIES"
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:43:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw6sK8.G8s
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:

Before proceeding to answer to this "article", I would like to protest to
the kind of follow-up that Mr. Buis wants.  Since he posted his article to sce,
I think it is outrageous to require from my to follow-up my answer to scy.
Perhaps, he wants to whisper my answer to his ear, but this isn't going
to hapen.  Therefore, I follow-up to sce, where his original article was posted.


>		GREEK NATIONALISTS AND SKOPIE "GYPSIES"

>	(Reprinted from "Makedonia", issue #24, June 19, 1992)

>	This article by ELEFTHERIA PANAGOPOULOU was published in January, 1989,
>	in issue #72 of the Greek magazine  "SCHOLIASTIS". 

  Although I don't have enough time to reply to the entire article of
  Ms. Panagopoulou, I have to point out some confusion which she causes
  either intensionally, or unintentionally.

Therefore, here we go:

Confusion #1:  What are the "Slavophones" of Greece
----------------------------------------------------
She writes:
>...speak the Macedonian language. There are Slavophones... 
>Slavophones... number between 50,000 and 300,000.

>Supporters of the Greek thesis recognize the exsistence of the Slavophone
>population, but immediately add to this that these people have a "Greek
>consciousness." History has proved that the idea of the consciousness is
>flexible, especially concerning ethnic groups, and depends on their attitude
>towards the authorities and the state. There is no doubt that Slav Macedonians
                                                 ^^^^^^^^
>in Greece consider Greece their homeland and connect their destiny with the
>Greek state. At the same time they feel different, because their language,
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>their traditions, their songs are different. 

 She first implies a number between 50,000 to 300,000, which is totally
 speculative.  Then she says that these people connect their destiny with the
 Greek state, "no doubt" about it.  And then she concludes that they feel
 different.

 And why these people are different? She explains this thing by saying that
 they speak a different language, but she does not explain if this language
 is related to the language that people speak in Skopje. 

 Yet, their dances, songs, traditions e.t.c. are different.  As if one would
 say that all Greeks have exactly the same dances, songs, e.t.c.

Confusion #2:  Macedonian nation
--------------------------------
Enjoy the following:

>... Slav Macedonians ....
>... speak the Macedonian language ...
>speaking Macedonian...
>... Macedonian language is often the "grandmother's language,"...
>... who speak Macedonian ...
>... when the band strikes up a Macedonian tune...
>... Slav Macedonians ...
>Denial of the Macedonian identity ...
>... deprived Slav Macedonians...
>Slavomacedonians have ...
>... speaking or singing in Macedonian. 
>... existence of the Macedonian nation,
>... Macedonian language. 
>What are the reactions of the Slavomacedonians? 

  We now learn the following:
  (i) These Slavophones are Slav Macedonians (or Slavomacedonians); of course,
      they can't have Greek consiousnes.  Since they are Slavophones, they
      cant be Greek...
 (ii) Although they are Slavomacedones, their language is not Slavomacedonian
      but Macedonian.  Notice the confusion: they are Slavomacedonians, but
      their language is referred to as Macedonian.
(iii) Although they are Slavomacedones, their nation is called "Macedonian." 
      Therefore, there are Slavomacedonians, who have "Macedonian" nationallity.

 Here the confusion comes:  Why is she using different names to describe
 the people and their nationality, language, songs e.t.c.?

 In other words, it appears to be a nation (language e.t.c.) which is
 called "Macedonian", but she referes to such people as Slavomacedonians.
 She hasn't characterized these people as "Macedonians" not for a single time.

 Of course, the people have to be confused.  This is what the propaganda
 about Macedonia is doing for 50 years.  For example, the Yugoslavian 
 communist party's offcial newspaper, "The Communist," on December 11th,
 1982, printed that "Macedonian language" and "Macedonian nationals" exist
 not only in Yugoslavia but in Greece and Bulgaria as well.  Notice that
 now we have "Macedonian nationals" instead of "Slavomacedonians."  Any
 guesses about what is going to hapen after 50 or 100 years?

 When in 1982 the then president of the communist party of Macedonia said
 that "we will fight for the national rights of the Macedonian minority in
 Greece," what did he really meant? Notice again, that now there is a
 Macedonian minority; the term Slavomacedonians is thrown to the garbage.

Confusion #3:  Macedonian language
----------------------------------
 Yet, let me proceed and make the following comment.  She refers to the
 Slavophonic language as Macedonian, without providing us with any
 information that their language is even related to the language that people
 speak in Skopje.  Instead, she informs us that:
>... Slav Macedonian students had to exert special efforts to
>learn the Macedonian language...
 I can understand how, for example, a Greek student can exert special effort
 to learn German, but I would be very surprized to learn that Greeks also
 exert special effort to learn Greek.  Perhaps, one could explain to me
 why the Greek Pontians returning from Ukrane, without having for 50 years any
 kind of communication with Greece (the comunists didn't even allow them to
 send letters to Greece), are able to speak very good Greek in two-three
 weeks (which I can confirm, since I've seen it), but the Slav Macedonians
 need to exert special effort to learn Macedonian?  Isn't this because the
 so called Macedonian language is an artificial one, which was created the
 years after WWII?

 Also, notice that these people are "resisting":
>Another form of resistance is speaking the Macedonian language, singing
>Macedonian songs and giving children Macedonian names, despite official
>prohibitions. 
 But, although they speak the Macedonian language, they can't learn it !!!

 Interesting, isn't it?

Confusion #4:  Macedonian history
---------------------------------
 Also, she is not telling us where what kind of Slavs are, how long they have
 existed, e.t.c.  Instead, she informs us that:
>... the struggle of the Slavomacedonians against the Turks.
 which is ridiculous.  There is plenty of historical evidence that the
 people who struggled against Turks were Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs, but
 certainly no Slavomacedonians have been reported fighting the Turks.
  
 Artificial history? Nahhh !!!

Confusion #5: The Colonization of Macedonia 
-------------------------------------------
 She even goes further, suggesting that:
>... and colonization by Greeks from other regions. 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^ (!!!!)
 I guess, people are not free to move inside their own country.  If I
 decide to move to Florina, then I will be a colonist.  What does this
 imply?  When someone says things about "colonization" of a part of Greece
 by Greek (colonists), what the heck does this mean?

However, she admits that:
>Some of the older ones have adopted the Greek point of view, that they are not
>a separate group and that use of the Macedonian language could be dangerous for
>national security.

 Some? How many are "some?" And why the hell have they "adopted" the Greek
 point of view?  And how come they care about the national security?  How
 is it possible a supressed "Macedonian national" be concerned about the
 national security of Greece?

But wait.  Here we have a "but:"
>But there is another group of mainly younger people, which
>is against this viewpoint.

 So the problem is how you view it.  In other words, you have to chose what
 you are.  If you chose you are Greek who speaks a Slavic language, then
 the Greek goverment is 100% right in saying that there is no Macedonian
 minority in Greece.  And the writer informs us that the older people think
 this way.  Of course, they have to be wrong.  The old people dont know well
 what they are.

 So, unfortunatelly, their kids prefer to be Macedonians.  I guess, this
 strange nationality is very confusing to young people.  The older people
 may say that they are Greeks, but the young ones know better.  The young
 ones are even expressing their anger:
>In some villages the targets of reaction have been
>the monuments to Pavlos Melas,  placed provocatively in the central square. In
>one village, the monument was pulled down and thrown into the river. At
>another, it was turned into a urinal. 

 I guess it is very provokative to put in the centers of villages monuments
 of heroes of the Greek revolution in Macedonia.  We should throw in the river
 the statues of people who fought for our freedom.

 And now, she informs us of:
>local authorities led by Lerin's Metropolitan Kantiotis
                          ^^^^^^^
 One thus, should inform rev. Kantiotis that he things wrong that he is the
 Metropolitan in the city of Florina; the name of the city should be Lerin.
 I guess, it is hard for someone who is totally confused, to distingush
 between Greek and Slavic names.  If you provoke the people, they have to
 react positevly ...  Is this the Macedonian logic?

 Panos Tamamidis