HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barnett@convex.com (Paul Barnett)
Subject: Re: Some ramblings on ownership
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:22:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Oct7.154422.15060@spdc.ti.com> serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:

>At least I know what maintenance is being done to the plane, what
>needs to be done, when it will get done, and even if it will get done.

>The biggest advantage I have found in ownership is the ability to take a trip
>whenever and whereever I want to and I always get to fly my favorite plane.

This isn't actually a disagreement, but my favorite part about
ownership is the former, rather than the latter.  When flying a single
engine plane under IFR, confidence in the functionality and
reliability of all the important items in front of and behind the
firewall reduces the pucker factor considerably.

Additional comment (about a similar thread): Partnerships will reduce
your individual cost of owning, but there are are inevitably conflicts
about costs of repairs and upgrades.  I would like to fly a faster
plane, but I have settled for a slower one that I can own alone.

One more thing to add: Find one mechanic to do all of the work on your
plane.  Having a single person that is familiar with the mechanical
trivia associated with annuals, emergency AD's, and the condition of
your plane will make your life much easier.  A good relationship with
an avionics tech doesn't hurt either, especially if you have all the
stuff needed to fly IFR safely.
--
Paul Barnett             Internet: barnett@convex.com
Convex Computer Corp.      Office: 214-497-4846
Richardson, TX        Mobile/Home: 214-236-8438
From: ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Date: 13 Oct 1992 12:56:59 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


	I would like to thank you one and all for the replies I
received in regard to bank loans for aircraft-I am now well on my
way in that department.
	An interesting suggestion came my way in regard to air-
craft and ownership.  Being the mechanical type of sorts, it was
suggested to me that I might want to get my A & P so I could work
on my own plane and also make me more attractive as a partner in
an ownership.  On the other hand, an instructor/friend suggested
that if he were looking for a partner he would not necessarily re-
gard an owner/A & P as a benefit due to experience and skill level.
He went on to say that he would feel more comfortable with a
mechanic which did his job everyday for a living.
	Comments from anyone with experience in owner/aircraft main-
tenance would be appreciated.  Assuming that one (namely myself)
would be compentent in this regard I welcome all pro and con com-
ments.(Flame shields on)		Keep the Faith, PJ
-- 
Sealy R & D - A laid back job with its ups & downs, but we always
manage to spring back.  All opinions are regretfully my very own.
17500 Engle Lake Drive			     Phone (216)-891-8200
Middleburg Hts., Ohio 44130-8399               Fax (216)-891-9116
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:08:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: nlm.1992Oct14.120825.14388
Organization: National Library of Medicine

In article <1beh2sINN4kg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:
>
>	Comments from anyone with experience in owner/aircraft main-
>tenance would be appreciated.  Assuming that one (namely myself)
>would be compentent in this regard I welcome all pro and con com-
>ments.(Flame shields on)

The simple fact of the matter is that an owner can do virtually all of
his own maintenance; he needs only to find a licensed A&P who will
advise, inspect, and sign-off his work.  There are lots of independent
A&Ps (and a more than a few FBO shops) which will do this.  It basically
involves working with the mechanic enough that he can trust that you
understand accepted practices.  Tips for building this relationship are:
- Buy both the shop manual and the parts book for your plane.  Use the
  books to study, and use them to illustrate questions you have about
  the procedure to be done, when discussing it with the A&P.  He/she
  will be impressed that you want to do it right and have the tech info
  to do it right.
- Use your own tools
- Ask questions.  Most A&Ps get a little bored with just doing maintenance
  and love to be put in the role of teacher.  (If yours doesn't, find
  another one).
- Find an A&P with an IA (Inspection) rating.  This will enable him/her
  to fill out and sign off Forms 337 for stuff like new avionics and
  other structural mods if needed.

With two different airplanes and two different shops, I have had such
an arrangement, where nearly everything has one flat fee: $25 (=one hour
of labor).  This has included stuff like a new windshield, new magnetos,
muffler replacement.  One larger cost was removing the engine of a 172
and replacing it with a factory reman.  That cost $200 :-).  As an owner
you can do about as much as your time and ability will allow to take
care of your airplane.  Publications like _Light Plane Maintenance_
are specifically written for owner-pilots who work on their own craft.

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: psv2b@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Peter S. Vines)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Cherokee 180 operating costs
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:18:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Virginia

A group of pilots I regularly fly with are considering purchasing
a Cherokee 180 (mid 70's).  I would like information from other 180
pilots concerning the operating costs.  What is the fuel burn, are parts
hard to find, are there particular years or models which should be 
avoided?
Thanks for any assistance,


--
- Peter Vines : vines@virginia.edu : (804) 924-4644 : University of Virginia
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: Insurance Compaines
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:56:27 GMT

I have been very happy with AVEMCO.
They have had to give me money, in addition to collecting it from me,
and it all went very well.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning

George Patterson writes:

> I had Avemco for a while. I've heard that they live up to their ads. You
> may be able to get a better deal, though. I switched to Rollins, Burdick,
> & Hunter because they were cheaper.

Two years ago when I was researching  insurance,  Rollins Burdick, Hunter's
quote  came in almost  $1000  HIGHER  than  Avemco's.  Now maybe we have an
unusual  situation with me at higher time and more ratings and my wife with
a modest  amount of time.  Nonetheless,  Avemco  came thru and we have been
with them since.  As someone else said, your mileage may vary so it pays to
shop around given your specific circumstances.

--
 Mike Myshatyn    Bonanza N4896J           Hewlett-Packard Company
   ASEL/AMEL COMM, INSTR, CFI-IA           User-Interface Technology Division
 ...!hplabs!fc.hp.com!myshatyn             Ft. Collins, CO  80525
 or ... myshatyn@fc.hp.com                 (303) 229-4067
From: bullock@watson.bms.com (JOAN BULLOCK)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Date: 14 Oct 92 15:28:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bristol Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1beh2sINN4kg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu 
(Pj Pisczak) writes...

>An interesting suggestion came my way in regard to air-
>craft and ownership.  Being the mechanical type of sorts, it was
>suggested to me that I might want to get my A & P so I could work
>on my own plane and also make me more attractive as a partner in
>an ownership.  

I can't recall exactly but I believe there was a NPRM recently (within the 
last year?) that would require currency for A & Ps.  There was some 
discussion of this at an EAA chapter meeting with several people decrying
that this would make it difficult to impossible to be a part-time A & P, 
especially one who only worked on his/her own plane.

Dunno what came of it all.  Anybody got the facts?


Joan Bullock
Warrior N2227Z
bullock@bms.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 16:10:58 GMT

In article <1beh2sINN4kg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:

>	An interesting suggestion came my way in regard to air-
>craft and ownership.  Being the mechanical type of sorts, it was
>suggested to me that I might want to get my A & P so I could work
>on my own plane and also make me more attractive as a partner in
>an ownership.  On the other hand, an instructor/friend suggested
>that if he were looking for a partner he would not necessarily re-
>gard an owner/A & P as a benefit due to experience and skill level.
>He went on to say that he would feel more comfortable with a
>mechanic which did his job everyday for a living.

I think your friend is correct. Furthermore, you don't really need the
A&P rating. Most FBOs either do not allow work by "outside mechanics"
or the resident A&P is overworked and willing to inspect and sign off
a lot of owner maintenance. My FBO is one of the latter, and I find that
I don't need an A&P to do those maintenance items I wish to do.

For example, I recently replaced the vacuum pump in my aircraft, and had
Pete Kupper check the installation and sign off the work. I also put in
my own LORAN unit during the annual inspection last year.

Even with an A&P rating, you'll have to pay an inspector to double-check
your work for the annual, since lowly A&Ps can't perform annuals. You'd
have to do a "100 hour" inspection and have an inspector come by and sign
off the work as an annual. There's some argument over the legality of this,
but *my* last two annuals were done this way.

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | You can't find the answers in the bottom of a
George Patterson -  | whiskey glass, but if you look hard enough, you'll
                    | forget the questions.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: acampane@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Angelo Campanella)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:34:04 GMT

It reminds me of the old story of the Cadillac owner that was asked what
miles-per gallon his car achieved.  The answer:  "If you have to ask, then you
can't afford it!".

My first flying was in the late '60's, and I determined then, after much
sould-searching, that I was best off renting, especially in a club arrangement,
until the amount of money I spent each year was profane or insane or both.

That way, I kept my freedom of choice until the 'right' or 'sweet' deal came
along.

And so it did in 1970, when 1/2 of a Debonair became available.  (Previous
half-owner, former Cessna 172 pilot, scared himself by running out of aux tank
fuel on a long cross-country-- common for an aircraft with multiple switchable
tanks if you are not attentive).  No problem, just a lot of ruckus and shaking
as the fuel injection system purges and reprimes on a fresh tank of fuel...
But he had had enough of 'advanced' aircraft.

Anyway, the deal was cash ($6,000 in those days), and I had it already in a
savings account.  Saved a heap of interest that way.....

My partnership was wonderful- it lasted for 20 years! Other fellow liked to 
wash and wax, but did not know much about mechainisms.  I hate to wash, but
I was bug on mechanical maintenance, arranging all inspections and repairs.
(He was able to wash the plane wth only two buckets of water!  Taught me that
the best way to get bug splats off was with baking soda and a damp cloth...)

Does that give you any insight?
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: kkalan@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kenneth Kalan)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:00:35 GMT

In article <14OCT199210281773@watson.bms.com> bullock@watson.bms.com (JOAN BULLOCK) writes:
>In article <1beh2sINN4kg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu 
>(Pj Pisczak) writes...
>
>>An interesting suggestion came my way in regard to air-
>>craft and ownership.  Being the mechanical type of sorts, it was
>>suggested to me that I might want to get my A & P so I could work
>>on my own plane and also make me more attractive as a partner in
>>an ownership.  
>
>I can't recall exactly but I believe there was a NPRM recently (within the 
>last year?) that would require currency for A & Ps.  There was some 
>discussion of this at an EAA chapter meeting with several people decrying
>that this would make it difficult to impossible to be a part-time A & P, 
>especially one who only worked on his/her own plane.
>
>Dunno what came of it all.  Anybody got the facts?
>
>
>Joan Bullock
>Warrior N2227Z
>bullock@bms.com
>
>
Just another opinion, I seem to remember my instructor wanting to do something
similar, but I believe he said that besides going to school for the training
you would also have to do an apprenticeship for x hundreds of hours.

He just did not have that kind of time to commit.

Ken Kalan
PP ASEL
kgk@nwu.edu
From: bunda@cs.utexas.edu (John Bunda)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Date: 15 Oct 1992 20:01:08 -0500
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu


Today I finished a 100hr on 72A.  Did all the plugs,
compression, bled the brakes, changed the oil, and installed an
intercom (PS Engineering PM-2000, it's great), and the usual
inspections.  I did most of the work myself, and my A&P friend
who supervised tried to keep me under control.   I spent two
whole days, though a good part of that was on the intercom.  My A&P 
will probably bill me for a couple of hours.

The bad news?  Oh yeah.  I changed the oil - drained the old, put
in the new.  We were working on two planes simultaneously and 
there were some distractions.  I forgot to put the oil filler cap on,
which I discovered during takeoff as oil started splattering over
the windscreen.  Landed straight ahead, taxied back, uncowled it,
found the cap where I'd left it on top of the crankcase.  No big deal,
but there's oil everwhere again (I had just cleaned it all off).

It was a cheap lesson, nothing really bad happened, but as I was
poking around looking for the cap with oil all over everything,
having spent the last two days in the hot sun slaving over the thing,
well, the money I had saved seemed somehow less than it did before
I got started.  Anyhow, I do enjoy working on my plane (repeat after
me) but I gotta admit, there are times....

-John
-- 
John Bunda * bunda@cs.utexas.edu * {uunet,harvard}!cs.utexas.edu!bunda

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 17:27:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.120825.14388@nlm.nih.gov> masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys) writes:

>- Buy both the shop manual and the parts book for your plane.  Use the
>  books to study, and use them to illustrate questions you have about
>  the procedure to be done, when discussing it with the A&P.  He/she
>  will be impressed that you want to do it right and have the tech info
>  to do it right.

Where do you get the books? Do you have to write the manufacturer for them,
or is there another source?

patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    | There are very few personal problems which
George Patterson -  | cannot be solved by a suitable application
                    | of high explosive.
                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Loans for major overhauls
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:00:09 GMT

The subject line says it all. What have people done?

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
From: lee@bluefuzz.sw.stratus.com (Lee Cooprider)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
Date: 7 Oct 92 14:52:58 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering

In article <1aulenINN8fd@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:
>I will likely attempt to purchase a Cessna 182, possibly with a partner.
>I have heard that the banks will not loan on anything older than 20 years
>even if the airframe and engine have low hours.

I bought a 25-year-old Skylane, and, while I did not finance it directly
(thanks to a home equity loan that could cover it) I heard no such
restrictions from anyone.  I recommend using a bank or other agency with a
significant history in aircraft loans; many banks don't understand them.

>How many partners is ideal (assuming compatible personalities)?  

Three is enough to reduce cost but not overly restrict flying time.  Also,
votes are never ties :-)

-- 
Lee W. Cooprider				PP-ASEL/IA
Lee_Cooprider@vos.stratus.com			Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: dlm@unislc.uucp (Dennis McCurdy)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Loans
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:25:06 GMT

Pj Pisczak (ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: I have heard that
: the banks will not loan on anything older than 20 years, even if the
: airframe and engine have low hours. 

I have read in aviation rags of various kinds some ads which claim to
finance a plane "up to 20 model years" old. Now, my question is, what
is the difference between a 20 year old plane and one that is 20
"model" years old?

-- 
Dennis L. McCurdy          |
  PP-ASEL A&P              |
 dlm@unislc                |
 dlm@unislc.slc.unisys.com |
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Insurance Compaines
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:39:00 GMT
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy

In article <108640001@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> myshatyn@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike Myshatyn) writes:
!George Patterson writes:
!
!! I had Avemco for a while. I've heard that they live up to their ads. You
!! may be able to get a better deal, though. I switched to Rollins, Burdick,
!! & Hunter because they were cheaper.
!
!Two years ago when I was researching  insurance,  Rollins Burdick, Hunter's
!quote  came in almost  $1000  HIGHER  than  Avemco's.  Now maybe we have an
!unusual  situation with me at higher time and more ratings and my wife with
!a modest  amount of time.  Nonetheless,  Avemco  came thru and we have been
!with them since.  As someone else said, your mileage may vary so it pays to
!shop around given your specific circumstances.

Here's an interesting twist on shopping around: I used two different
brokers (RBH is a broker). The new broker came in with a quote about
$115 lower for the same insurance but I hate hopping insurance
companies every year so I called the current broker and basically
said `I hate switching every year but I have another quote for
$115 less and they'll provide slightly better coverage in a couple
of areas. What about it.' Sure 'nuff in about 2 hours the answer
was we'll meet the other quote. As the man said `you can negotiate
anything.'

It's always worth a try.

Dave Rogers
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: petri@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (HOWARD PETRI)
Subject: Re: Some ramblings on ownership
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: petri@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Organization: INDIANA U. CYCLOTRON FACILITY, BLOOMINGTON, IN
Distribution:  world
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:27:13 GMT

In article <barnett.718482157@convex.convex.com>, barnett@convex.com (Paul Barnett) writes...
>In <1992Oct7.154422.15060@spdc.ti.com> serafin@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin) writes:
> 
     Here is another point to consider pertaining to the number of owners.
It was once explained to me that the insurance companies consider a plane
with up to 5 owners a "group owned airplane". A plane with greater than
5 owners is considered a "club" plane. Club planes pay higher insurance
premiums than group owned planes do. 

Howard Petri
Pegasus N599JH
From: scott@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Scott Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
Subject: Re: Insurance Compaines
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:37:23 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO

In rec.aviation.owning, patter@dasher.uucp (24224-guthrie) writes:


>I had Avemco for a while. I've heard that they live up to their ads. You
>may be able to get a better deal, though. I switched to Rollins, Burdick,
>& Hunter because they were cheaper.

Just a bit of clarification here.  Rollins, Burdick, and Hunter are
insurance brokers, while Avemco is a primary insurer.  RB&H will make a
yearly attempt to find you cheaper rates when it comes time to
re-insure.  This may mean you'll change insurers every few years as
rates flucuate if you're looking for the lowest rates.  

Obviously a prudent owner will want to do a bit of research into the
companies offered by the broker.  Me, I've been a satisified RB&H
customer throughout my 2.5 years of ownership, using two different
insurance companies.  OTH, I've never made a claim, so I've no idea how
the companies would have been to deal with, or whether RB&H would go to
bat for me in the case of any disputes.


Scott Turner  scott@hpisla.LVLD.HP.COM
HP VXI Systems Division
Turbo Arrow N2134N  "Baby"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: gaynier@elec.uq.oz.au (Ron Gaynier)
Subject: Re: Aircraft Owner Maintenance
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:22:38 GMT

In <1beh2sINN4kg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ch491@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pj Pisczak) writes:


"|"	An interesting suggestion came my way in regard to air-
"|"craft and ownership.  Being the mechanical type of sorts, it was
"|"suggested to me that I might want to get my A & P so I could work
"|"on my own plane and also make me more attractive as a partner in
"|"an ownership.  On the other hand, an instructor/friend suggested
"|"that if he were looking for a partner he would not necessarily re-
"|"gard an owner/A & P as a benefit due to experience and skill level.
"|"He went on to say that he would feel more comfortable with a
"|"mechanic which did his job everyday for a living.
"|"	Comments from anyone with experience in owner/aircraft main-
"|"tenance would be appreciated.  Assuming that one (namely myself)
"|"would be compentent in this regard I welcome all pro and con com-
"|"ments.(Flame shields on)		Keep the Faith, PJ

I would think it would be a plus since you only have to concern 
yourself with ONE aircraft (if indeed the only reason you became an
A&P was to work on YOUR aircraft) and it would be an aircraft that
you would quickly become initimately familar with.

Here is a related question, let's say I own a sailplane and I only
want the 'A' of an 'A&P', how difficult is it to get? 

Ron Gaynier