From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Revisit the mission of Xcult but first...
Date: 19 Dec 1992 20:17:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: xcult-l@psuvm.psu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, AKARP@GONZAGA.BITNET () says:

>I must respond to Ruth:
>
>when I say SUBVERSIVE Christianity, I mean in very precise terms (i.e., C
>Christians manipulating the Bible through convenient misinterpretation of
>it to dehumanize and divide people, all across the spectrum).  Such
>Christians are really not Christians at all; if absolutism is their game,

Exactly - those are idiots playing power games.  And it's NOT Christianity.
Although, come to think of it, Christians were considered subversives in
the early days....:-)

>There are exemplary Christians out there (others on XCULT have so proven)
>who know the true message of Jesus and have abided byhis words primarily
>(the gospels are inconsistent and contradictory, not to mention inevitably
>biased).  W

Uhmmm- would you mind telling me where you got that?  I don't think it's
true - the bit about the Gospels being inconsistent, I mean.  

>When Christ says to treat your neighbor as you would be, this doesn't
>mean condemning them to the fifth circle; before you JUDGE others, judge
>yourself--she who casts the first stone...

Precisely.  Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.  If I do start
screwing up though, I would hope a friend would tell me if I didn't realize
it myself.  That's a *lot* different from throwing rocks.

>Answer me this, Ruth:  If you were born, unfortunately as a non-Christian,
>and grew up in a part of the world completed divested of Christian influence,
>would you today consider yourself doomed and without salvation?

That's an impossible question to answer.  If I didn't know about Christ, the
rest of the question would be nonsense.  If I had not decided that Christ is
who he said he is very early in life, I would not be who I am now in any 
case.  Like I said, there is no way to answer that question.  And any, it
doesn't matter what I consider myself; it's God's call, and always was.

>Put more pertinently, are little children born in China, africa, and
>South America (or American Indians) who will never have the opportunity
>to find Christ die.  Is anything but Christianity suitable enough to
>avoid the infernal conflagration?

No.  Period.  It's sad, and I don't like it much either, but that's the way 
it goes.  Actually, I don't believe very small children are ever sent to
Hell when they die.  In order to sin, you have to know you're doing something
wrong, and decide to do it anyway.  Babies and very young children can't
do the first part...  

>Preaching hate and intolerance for religious affiliation, as you are, can

Bull - please stop shoveling it; it's not going to get you any reactions.
I've heard it before, and heard it done better.  Get yourself some new
rhetoric; the old stuff's threadbare.

>never be consistent with Christ's message; this is patently obvious.
>As for the religious right, I gave me examples and referred to them by
>name; perhaps I should have included Ruth Hanschka specifically.

Maybe you should have.  If you're that bigoted, go right ahead.  Sauce for the
goose, old chum.

>As for your non-netting Jewish friends, I can't fathom what could possess
>them to befriend a person who is so dogmatic and condescending to their
>faith...

Then you know nothing of me, or my friends, or my beliefs, or theirs.
Go home, really read your Bible, and learn a little something.  Then come
back and we'll talk.  If you think I'm being condescending towards you, you're
right.  I heard better stuff than that in high school.

>I call your statements ignorant because I can see how the Religious Right
>and subgroups have employed diabolical tactics of misinformation, lying,
>scapegoating and stereotyping to the hilt in order to push their intolerant
>agendas.  Colorado is an example.  Oregon is a frightening occurrence and
>I hear Washington state is next. These religious marauders, like many
>televangelists, are playing on the fears of the public for personal gain
>and a warped sense of domination (something to do with the post-millenialistic
>dispensational view of the second coming).

I give up already.  You're sounding like a looney left type who's just as
blind as you accuse the religious right folks of being.  That missive sounds
an awful lot like what the Nazis said about the Jews.  Himmler in liberal
clothing, and yes I'm serious.  Some of the people I grew up with had numbers
tatooed on their arms.  I know what I'm talking about.

>I realize that this discussion has become BEYOND HEATED.  I agree with you
>that another topic should be pursued (I think that the 6 pages of citations
>from Corinthians has distracted us from the message of this board; after all,
>there are good people on here that gain nothing from biblical allusion--
>let's keep this multicultural.)
>
>To think that this all began with someone saying "Happy Holidays," but in
>a way that was offensive to an ABSOLUTIST.  This is ludicrous.

Yes, it is.  I've been listening to both sides of this thing all of my life.
Old bull, new bull, absolutist/atheist/realist/nihlist/conservative/liberal
who-knows-what bull.  I give up already.

>Finally, Ruth:  What happened to your loving, benevolent, charitable
>Absolute God? ... or perhaps I should be addressing this to the 90% of
>Christians to the left...

He got angry - my God is also the one who visited the plagues on Egypt,
and leveled Sodom and Gemorrah.  And kicked the moneychangers out of the
Temple.  My God isn't limited by some humans' idea of goodness and
benevolence.  IMRO, He has *no* limits.  

Unlimited whatever to all, and to all a good night [to misquote "A Visit
Frm St. Nicholas]

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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