HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish-speaking Finns vs. Finnish-speaking vs. xxx flame wars
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:00:14 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr2.040021.2175@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
writes:
> In article <22261@goofy.Apple.COM>, ksand@apple (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >Sorry, it seems that these silly language wars pop up on s.c.n once
> >every 6 months, and it usually starts with a Finn complaining about
> >the compulsory Swedish courses in school. Maybe we should analyze
> >why this is the big issue.
 
> It's really quite simple.  People feel that they could use their
> school time for much more useful languages or subjects than Swedish.
> Then, after they've complained about it, someone else starts talking
> about the usual "nordic cooperation", "a bilingual country requires
> that the languages are equal", "common Nordic cultural background"
> etc. etc. ad nauseaum and just to be sure often add something about
> intolerance etc. - instant flame bait.

OK, I spent a lot of time in high school learning German, religion,
history of China, nuclear physics, biology, even Finnish (which is
my native language), attended sports. I really should have used
my school time for more useful events which I need in my current
profession as a software engineer.

Unfortunately such arguments don't lead anywhere. And I personally
think that the education system in Finland is better than the
one in US (where people don't know which country borders to US
in the south and north).

> Some of the answers are irrelevant, some just plainly not true, some
> exaggerated, some perhaps relevant - and all except the last category
> cause instant heated discussions (are answered with svenska-talande
> b{ttre folk, the Swedish-government era, the issues of
> Finnish-speaking people in ]land and Sweden, Swedish-speaking quotas,
> etc.).

I also note that one of your objectives is to raise the issue
of 'svenska talande bettre folk' - or translated 'Swedish speaking
higher class people'. My grand-father and his ancestory were 
poor peasants, and we were never considered to be the rulers of Finland
while we digged potatoes. 

In general, I think a lot of the issues of language issues are usually
based on personal opinions and biases which are in many cases related
to prejudices - in many cases from both sides.

One last issue, if Swedish speaking universities would have quotas,
it would be for Swedish-speaking only. As it is today it's quite
easy to attend Abo Academi if you are a Finnish-speaking student. Thus
the quotas also protect Finns to attend Swedish schools. 


Cheers,
Kent
Finnish-Swedish Finn.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2722 soc.culture.europe:3602 eunet.politics:602
From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars Peter Fischer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: EC KILLS CHILDREN! (Was: Increasing amount of people against EU in Denmark)
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:01:43 GMT
	<1992Mar24.114118.5833@nntp.hut.fi>
	<1992Mar26.102841.7717@pcsbst.pcs.com>
	<ABRAHAM.92Mar27214038@loke.iesd.auc.dk>
	<1992Mar30.070157.14544@mentor.dk> <1992Apr1.111401.18664@odin.diku.dk>
	<ABRAHAM.92Apr2063831@loke.
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University

>>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen (abraham@iesd.auc.dk)
>>>>> Hans = Hans Huttel (hans@iesd.auc.dk)

Hans> But the social charter only puts forward a set of minimum
Hans> standards which our country still manages to exceed.

Per> The keyword is "still".

Agreed. I don't think the British will be able to hold back the
Germans (and others) for long in this matter. The British are isolated
(again) and will loose their foothold.

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: fslsh@ocs01.lerc.nasa.gov (Lennart S Hultgren)
Subject: Re: Iranian embassy torched
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 13:31:59 GMT

<1992Apr7.070247.25304@lth.se> dat91uni@ludat.lth.se (Urban Nilsson) writes:
><10823@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>
>> [Stuff deleted]

>
>I just want to say that the Mujahedin & the Iranian goverment should
>keep their fighting in Iran, 

I fully agree!  Except possibly that for *this* *particular* instance
you probably should have said that the *Mujahedin* should carry out
their campaign in Iran (and if they cannot then they probably do not
have enough popular support and should rethink their goals).  It does
not matter how you feel about a particular goverment -- any attack on
diplomats or diplomatic mission *is* a terrorist action and should be
condemned as such.  BTW, where was the excellent (:-)) Swedish police
-- were they doing the Libyan-police thing (helping direct the traffic
so that the demonstrators can get to the targeted embassy) or were
they still out looking for the Palme killer?

>here in Sweden we dont keep up this kind of silly behaivour.

What about the recent violence directed against foreigners on the
streets of Stockholm that I recently read about on the SCN?

>We had our tribe fighting back at the time of the Vikings and have stoped with
>now at don't want to have it back.

Don't forget that at the time of the vikings the Persians had had a
highly developed civilization for at least two thousand years.  
Please get off your
we-in-Sweden-are-the-best-and-everybody-else-do-not-know-anything
 high horse. :-).

--
Lennart S. Hultgren
Email: hultgren@lerc.nasa.gov | SnailMail: Mail Stop 5-9              | Answer:
Voice: (216) 433-6070         |            NASA Lewis Research Center |   41
FAX:   (216) 433-8864         |            Cleveland, OH 44135        | (LU&E)
From: hberg@polisci.pol.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic languages/dialects (was: Does Norden mean anything?)
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:02:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: polisci.hberg.70
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1992Mar26.093244.34804@eds.ericsson.se> lmebgo@eds.ericsson.se (Bengt G{llmo) writes:


>So, the distinction between language and dialect is not easy!

As one wise linguist once put it: A language is a dialect with an army and a 
navy.

CHomsky claims that there is no such thing as A Language - not from the 
point of view of scientific linguistics, at least; and the utter 
impossibility of drawing boundaries such as you are trying to do right now 
seems to bear him out.  The notion of "a language" is simply a belief in 
some sort of community, much as the notion of "a country" (try defining that 
in some way that doesn't appeal to beliefs; what is a boundary, eg?).

But, undoubtedly, we are stuck with notions such as "a language" and "a 
country", so, scientific accuracy aside, let me lay out what I believe is 
the relationship between Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish. (Hoary memories 
from a class in Scand Linguistics)

First, I believe that linguists distinguish between two separate  
Norwegian languages (which may or may not correspond to Bokmaal/
Landsmaal?).  One of them belongs to the West Scandinavian group (together 
with Icelandic and Faroese), the other belongs to the East Scand group (with 
Swedish and Danish).  The Norwegian that Swedes find so easy to understand 
is the eastern variety.  

The affinities between Swedish and Danish are seen in the similarities 
between the written forms - the phonology of Danish has, however, gone off 
the deep end (that's a value judgement, of course), so now any (at least any 
educated) Swede can read Danish, but can't understand the spoken form.

(haven't we been through this before?? Should we set up a FAQ?)
From: eric@sejnet.sunet.se (Eric Thomas, SUNET)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:46:58 GMT
Reply-To: eric@sejnet.sunet.se
Organization: Swedish University Network (SUNET), Stockholm, Sweden
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-5

In article <1992Apr7.204509.12002@kth.se>, matsd@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (matsd@physchem.kth.se (mats dahlgren)) writes...
>2.  Take away the energy tax.  If you don't want ordinary people, 
>    "Medelsvensson", to benefit from this, let the transportation
>    companies (such as taxi co.'s) get a refund of the energy tax, or
>    deduct it from the VAT they pay to the state. 
> 
>As you probaly can see, I don't mind if the total taxation is decreased.  
>I cannot accept the state (i.e. politicians) saying there is a need to 
>increase some taxations to lower others, as long as the state wastes 
>some 37 000 000 000 kronor each year or so on the military.

Fine, I agree, but please... What is so intrinsically bad with paying VAT on
energy tax? Tax by any other name would smell as foul. Bear in mind that the
infrastructure/procedures to collect VAT are in place (in all european
countries for that matter) and that letting the energy tax be VAT'ed does not
require any special effort - it happens by itself. Setting up new procedures to
let the companies recover energy tax and deduct it from their VAT so that we
can happily claim we don't pay VAT on energy tax costs money and kills trees on
the other hand - it would just add to the waste you mentioned, which the state
would have to finance somehow. Bottom line? You would end up paying more taxes
in some other way to finance your right not to pay VAT on energy tax.

  Eric
From: skenny@nano.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Swedens' Televerket
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:59:34 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

Read an interesting article today in the paper concerning the new cover
for the phone book which depicted a nude woman and satyr. There has been
some controversy over the art work and Televerket has opted to supply a
plain white wrapper if so desired. Is there really that much
controversy? Naturally the local papers only give a small portion of the
actual story, so I may be missing some major points.
--
=================================
skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca
St. John's, NF, CANADA
"Have a touton or do without'n !"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen)
Subject: Re: Skolpeng
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 92 23:35:26 GMT

In article <10760@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>
>  The best translation of 'skolpeng' might be 'school cheque'. It is a 
>proposal currently debated both locally in Gothenburg and on a national level. 
>  In essence, it means that the money the state spends on a certain individual
>pupil will follow that pupil to whatever school the pupil goes to, no matter
>if it is a government run school or a privately run school.
>  I belive Denmark has a system similar to this already.
The Province of British Columbia (Canada) has a similar system.
The taxpayer pays a "school-tax", and the private school
receives some of this tax-money.  If this grant was not given, it would be 
deemed to be unfair to those parents who, by sending their child(ren) to 
private school, would not receive any benefit for their taxes. 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2713 soc.culture.europe:3592 eunet.politics:597
From: abraham@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of EU (was Re: Increasing EU opposition in Denmark)
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:24:13 GMT
	<ABRAHAM.92Apr7181827@loke.iesd.auc.dk>
	<1992Apr7.203840.25348@sunic.sunet.se>
Organization: HUGIN Expert A/S


>>>>> On 7 Apr 92 21:28:20 GMT, eric@sejnet.sunet.se (Eric Thomas,
>>>>> SUNET) said:

Eric> Giving retired people a good life does not make a nation more
Eric> competitive, and costs a lot of money. Giving young parents the
Eric> ability to spend 6 months with their kids while continuing to be
Eric> paid does not make a nation more competitive, and costs money.
Eric> There is more to welfare/health care than taking care of the
Eric> diseased.

Those social benefits are often paid in other nations directly by the
employers rather than the tax-payers.  This gives an advantage in the
competition, that (partly) compensates for the higher wages.  (The
high wages are needed to pay the higher tax, thereby closing the
circle).

>- Keeping the work force informed and well educated does not make a
>  nation less competitive.

Eric> Giving kids a good education is a long term investment which
Eric> does not make a nation more competitive for another 10 years,
Eric> and costs a lot of money. It is an attractive thing to attempt
Eric> for a government trying to withstand a crisis based on lack of
Eric> competitiveness.

Short sighted politicians are always a danger.  I was referring to the
public libraries, which help keeping the adult population informed and
educated.

>- Removing arbitrary restrictions on who can do what jobs does not make
>  a nation less competitive.

Eric> [ ... ] That is, if some big company in (say) Italy decides to
Eric> invest a lot in Finland and sends a squad of executives to
Eric> create a new company there, as opposed to hiring Finns to run
Eric> the company, it is unlikely that they will put many women in
Eric> positions of power.

That would, of course, give them a disadvantage compared to competing
Finnish companies.

>Why do everybody in Finland and Sweden suddenly believe that low wages
>and low taxes are the only way to compete?

Eric> This is a good point, but when you have high wages and high
Eric> taxes (making investment from foreign countries rather
Eric> unattractive), you need a strong and high-quality domestic
Eric> industry to compensate. 

A good infrastructure, a highly competent work force, a stable social
and political system, and an efficient administration would also be
important factors.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2680 soc.culture.europe:3568 eunet.politics:592
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.europe,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Pros and Cons of EU (was Re: Increasing EU opposition in Denmark)
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:17:54 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Apr6.185732.19018@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gd8f@kelvin (Gregory  Dandulakis) writes:
>   Can you please explain to us then: 
>
>           How Finland is competitive *today* ?
>
>    By *forcing* the foreign or domestic capitalists to invest there?
>    Against theirown profits maximization?
>    I doubt it a lot.

Hmm - one of the main rhetorics of the pro-EU politicians is that
we'll have to join EU to get foreign capital here, to make it
attractive for them to invest here by creating an "image of European
Finland".  I think at least the image part is bullshit, don't know
about the rest.

>    Instead, contemporary Finland is competitive because uses its
>    natural resources extensively and keeps the infrastructure level 
>    high (including education etc) by *taxating* its people accordingly.
>    Nobody from the federal EU level will have any saying to reduce 
>    or increase the personal income tax platform at the state level.
>    This was always the case in the US too.

Yes, I agree that this is why Finland is competitive.  And no, I don't
suppose anyone from the federal level would have direct say to the
level but indirectly by changing the EU laws they would have a big
influence on the Finnish infrastructure and tax system, and I'm
worried that this influence wouldn't be good for Finland.

//Jyrki
From: sundinKC@dna.lth.se (Anders Sundin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Dagens Nyheter April 6th on Swedish-speaking Finns
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:50:01 GMT
Organization: Organic Chemistry 2, Lund University, Sweden

Juha Iisakka writes:
>I believe most Finns think S|dergran was a Swede.
>You should realize Finnish-Finnish and Finnish-Swedish
>have their own culture.
>
>Edith S|dergran was a good poet who used Swedish language.
>Her influence to SWEDISH litterature is big.
>Should I be proud of her because she happened to be
>a Finnish citizen?

I think this argument really underlines the point that was made
in the article. The Swedish-speaking in Finland are supposed to
"have their own culture" that the rest of Finland does not want
to know about.
-- 
 Anders Sundin           e-mail: sundinKC@dna.lth.se
 Organic Chemistry 2             Anders.Sundin@orgk2.lth.se
 University of Lund              ok2aps@gemini.ldc.lu.se
 P.O. Box 124                    ok2aps@seldc52.bitnet
 S-22100 Lund            phone:  +46 46 108214
 Sweden                  fax:    +46 46 108209
From: eric@sejnet.sunet.se (Eric Thomas, SUNET)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 8 Apr 92 18:00:39 GMT
Reply-To: eric@sejnet.sunet.se
Organization: Swedish University Network (SUNET), Stockholm, Sweden
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-5

In article <1992Apr8.080908.12987@eua.ericsson.se>, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes...
>You can easily get an education that doesn't pay
>off. You can easily get an education that you don't even use. Maybe you
>can't get that special type of education that would pay off greatly, because
>the beaureucrats didn't realise the need for it. It's very difficult for
>you to control the quality of the education -- when the government pays,
>only quantity, measured by statistics, counts.

There is truth in what you say, but please... Make a small survey of usenet.
Count the Swedes who can't spell Swedish, and divide by the amount of Swedes
you saw. Do the same for Americans. Compare. And don't give me any crap about
English being difficult to spell, it's one of the easiest languages I know in
this respect. Try French for a counter-example... I have many French-speaking
friends, and I know no more than a dozen who can spell. But there the
difficulty is real at least, and it is difficult to blame a mechanics for not
knowing all these millions of rules.

  Eric
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber)
Subject: Re: Swedish Dating/Courtship Customs?
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:00:46 GMT

In article <GOBBEL.92Apr3170706@cogsci.ucsd.edu> gobbel@cogsci.ucsd.edu writes:
>Pardon me for asking what may be a silly question, but can anyone
>enlighten me about how people start relationships in Sweden?  Things
>like: what are the (approximate, of course) cultural norms for when and
>how to initiate physical contact, little customs like giving flowers,
>etc., and that sort of thing in general.  

:-)    :-)    :-)    :-)    :-)    :-)    

Well, you're very right to enquire; customs CAN be very different:
Giving of PRESERVED FISH is the Nordic equivalent of flowers,
candy, etc.

As my father quoted:

Around her neck she wore
For everyone to see
A little kippered herring
To kipper true to me

(In the last line "kipper" is a pun on "keep her")

Also, the symbolic significance of stokfisk cannot be denied.

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 

Dave Golber
From: perw@elixir.lne.kth.se (Per Westerlund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Official Language Status
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:56:12 GMT
Reply-To: perw@elixir.lne.kth.se (Per Westerlund)
Organization: School of EE, Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden

How many Finnish-speaking Finns are there in Sweden? I have read that the biggest language among the immigrants in Sweden is the Swedish due to that there are so many Swedish-speaking Finns that have immigrated to Sweden.


Per Westerlund
perw@elixir.lne.kth.se
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic freedom
Date: 6 Apr 92 07:36:34 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

mats dahlgren writes:

>we now pay "moms" (VAT) on just about everything.  Before the
>reform, there was no "moms" on domestic travels, gasoline, telephone calls,
>electricity for households, which there now is (just to mention some of the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not to mention that there is now moms on the *electricity TAX*. Yes that's
right, you have to pay tax for the tax you pay! Welcome to Sweden!

Another thing: If you rent a garage place for your car, you have to pay
moms on the rent if the garage is in another house than you live in.
If you rent a garage and an apartment in the same building, you don't
have to pay moms. This means of course that the landlord takes the 25%
rise into his own pocket. Who said socialism wasn't good for capitalists?
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: baker@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Andrew Baker)
Subject: Re: Swedish Prime minister says Sweden gaining democratic  freedom
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 11:20:36 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.184634.11280@lth.se> sundinKC@dna.lth.se (Anders Sundin) writes:
>Andrew Baker writes:
>> If something is worth $4000 to me, and it costs $10000 to produce, then
>> I won't buy it. [   ] It is called economic inefficiency.
>and
>> Roads are part of the nation's infrastructure, and thus a reasonable
>> function of government.
>
>Where did the economic inefficiency go in this case?

In the case of roads, I probably *would* be willing to pay my share of
the costs on a per-use basis.  Toll boths on every street corner would
not be very sensible, however, so it is better to just collect the money
from general taxes (or better yet, taxes on gasoline, automobiles, etc.).

>Maybe social
>services too can be regarded as part of a nation's infrastructure?

I wasn't arguing against *all* social services.  I was responding to
a post where a person said that subsidy programs *never* cause
money to "vanish into thin air."  If the subsidy serves some social
purpose, then the policy may well be efficient, but to establish
this, you need an argument for the specific case; this is what
economists are worrying about when they talk about externalities,
public goods, and so forth.
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Hard times in Norway?
Date: 11 Apr 92 02:05:31 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr9.094724.1@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi>,
nindola@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi writes:
> 
> These are hard times for the western world I think. It's comforting
> to see that old wisdom still applies - you can't eat more than you 
> earn. In Finland and the other Nordic countries this means that
> you can't create jobs in the public sector when the motor (industry)
> is too small. Now is the time for restructuring. It will be 
> painful and politically almost impossible. That's why I'm in a 
> way very happy that the recession hit Finland with full strength
> at once (=the western recession + the death of the eastern trade).
> Maybe a political decision can now be made. The government came
> up with some measures last Sunday, measures to which they don't
> need the help of the opposition. But, unless they can't create a
> more flexible labour market, it will not be enough.
> 
> I think the finnish economy will be strong after this, other 
> countries are not forced to make as large restructurations.

One problem is that the regression is over here in US (looks like
that), same with Australia and many other western countries. Eventually
Japan will go slightly downhill for a while, but this country will
certainly bounce back again.

So Finland got the whole hit of the recession, however I wonder
if the restructure of the labor and business market is not too
late, because most other countries are already rolling full steam.
Only time will tell. I really hope they finally trashed the 
IMHO silly eastern Europe/Russia dominated export market, and 
move the country into the information age. You can't sell paper 
and paper factories forever.

Cheers,
Kent
..who hears barely nothing from Finland in news over here in USA.
Luckily I could call my mother, who constantly complains about
the *increased* taxes, especially on pension funds. 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:2591 soc.culture.europe:3495 eunet.politics:567