HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rcano@bnr.ca (Bob Cano)
Subject: RE: Rec.Scouting change
Reply-To: rcano@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 00:55:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.060130.4133@wkuvx1.bitnet>, waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
|> While I am new to the Rec. Scouting fold, I find it pretty
|> interesting to see the listing wanting to split.  

|> If you think that this split will result in getting "undesirable"
|> topics off of the activities or policies screens, think again. 
|> 
|> Scouting in the USA is at a crossroads.  In a few short weeks, we will
|> have a new Chief Scout Executive.  Later on, the nation will have a 
|> new President.  Later on still, we will see Scouting again in action
|> at the 1993 National Scout Jamboree.  We are seeing our programs grow
|> in diversity and yet we are trying, some of you say with all of our 
|> might, to hold onto the values that made Scouting what it has been for
|> the past 83 years.  

I support the split of groups. I am a cub leader with Scouts Canada.
While some discussion of BSA policy is interesting, It has little
impact on my work with my cubs. The endless debate which has taken 
over this newsgroup does not interest me, nor should it. And if a
topic concerning Scouts Canada policy came up, I would have the 
courtesy to set my distribution ot 'can', not 'world'. My KILL 
file for this group is the largest of any for the groups I read. 
Scouting has a much wider application than just in the USA. 
and the issues differ from contry to country. What we have in
common (or should have in common) is a desire to impart some of 
the scouting ideals to the boys (and girls) in our care.

I read rec.scouting to share ideas about program and planning.
I have voted for the split, because I hope it gives the various
factions within BSA a place to discuss their views, and the same
time giving myself, and others a relatively noise free environment
to discuss ways of bringing some of the scouting ideals (and lots
of good fun) to the boys I lead. 


Comments on some of your other points:

|>     since you cannot talk program without talking about
|> administration or policy.  You cannot talk policy without it impacting
|> upon the programs of the Scouting program. 

But you can share ideas, and methods. If i have someting that works,
I should share it with fellow scouters. It is up to them to decide,
based on local policy whether it will work.



|> ongoing discussion of lesbigays in Scouting and various court cases
|> defending/against the BSA's stand of religion in the lives of its
|> youth and adult members.  Yet, I did not have to comment or even read 
But if I'm not part of the BSA, I am not very interested. My interest
is in Scouts Canada policy, not BSA.



-- 
Bob Cano           Bell-Northern Research    | When all else fails,   
rcano@bnr.ca       P.O. Box 3511, Stn. C     | read the instructions.
                   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada   | 
(613)763 4086      K1Y 4H7                   |   
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: castaldi@heroes.glassboro.edu
Subject: rec.scouting change
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey, Glassboro, NJ 08028
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:31:41 GMT

I have an idea for all of those who want change ---

 Post all of the homosexual/religous/etc.. in alt.politics.homosexuality and
 keep all of the scouting program stuff here.  There is plenty of policy that
 can be discussed here like advancement, promotion, training, and troop 
 administration that  -is- of interest to all scouters in all nations.

Those who -want- to read the discussion can go to alt.politics and read it 
instead of forcing it on everyone.
From: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Gays you miss the point.
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:52:45 GMT
Reply-To: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Organization: m4

In article <1el5kcINNg14@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> >At what age does the typical gay male know that he is gay?  I would think that
|> >at ages 11-12-13 or so, boys are just beginning to find out who/what they are.
|> >I doubt they can make a lifetime decision at that age.
|> 
|> You are speaking as if boys actually *decide* to become gay or not.  You
|> seem to be saying that homosexuality is some sort of lifestyle choice.
|> This has not been substantiated by research.  Instead, it seems that humans
|> (the population on the whole) caontain a wide spectrum of all sexualtieis.
|> Some people are purely gay wihle others are purely straight.  Most people,
|> though, are somewhere in between.
|> 
|> And, I also don't see how you think of this "decision" as a "lifetime
|> decision."  Are you saying that once a person has sex with someone of
|> the same gender, that they cannot still have a family and a "normal" (by
|> your definition) life?
|> 
|> keith

Obviously I did not say what I meant to say.  I have gotten several replies to
my posting above in the same vein at this one.  I would like to clarify ...

NO, I do not believe that gays *decide* to become gay.  I decidedly believe the
opposite.

My posting was in response to a suggestion made that the controversy over 
gays and scouting be remedied by establishing a gay troop.  I think that is 
a terrible idea because most boys of 11-13 are emotionally/sexually immature 
and are still discovering who/what they are and should not be separated on
sexual orientation lines.

The *decision* I meant was simply the one to join or not join the gay troop.


-- 
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Mike Greenawalt           | emg@metaphor.com                           |
|                           | These opinions are mine, not my employer's |
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: ss@panix.com (Steve Steinberg)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Space Derby Help Wanted
Date: 17 Nov 92 03:57:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: panix.1992Nov17.035751.10507
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Nov16.174045.7481@col.hp.com> scottb@col.hp.com (Scott Brunton) writes:

Just to add my $.02- Be sure that there is one continuous piece of fishing
line for all the tracks-in other words one line strung through eye-hooks
to ensure that the tension is the same on all lines.

Unfortunately the space derby, although a nice change of pace, has
too many opurtunities for problems and is hell for the scouters trying
to run it and be fair.

BTW: Don't tell anyone but: The lighter the ship the better!  Don't
paint it, carve as much off as possible and you'll win!!!!  Umm,
no guarantees, but try it!!
-- 
=====================================================================
=== Steve Steinberg   ==  ss@panix.com  == {cmcl2,apple}!panix!ss ===

              (The space below intentionally left blank)
From: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Gays you miss the point.
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:57:23 GMT
Reply-To: emg@Metaphor.COM (Mike Greenawalt)
Organization: m4

In article <1992Nov3.195530.5506@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, smackinnon@mta.ca writes:
|> In article <1992Nov3.170807.3262@usl.edu>, mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll Matthew) writes:
|> >What about starting a gay boyscout troop?  Would that work?
|> >:
|> >
|> 
|> 	I do not think that  that would work. I have two reason why I think so.
|> 	First by putting people in two groups, you are not helping the 
|> situation. You are shrouding the "other side" and no one learns for the
|> other group about how they behave,  and hence you do not become toleratent of
|> the issuse, but you ignore it, hoping it does not bother you.
|> 	Secondly How do you start a gay Boyscout troop, if you are in an
|> area that does not tolerate homosexuals. It could cause aliot of problems
|> if you ask a younge boys to make a choice, that He(assuming boy scouts,but the
|> same would be true for girls) is gay, and that he wants to join this new troop.
|> Coming out is a big step, and is a step that you can't go back on. You just
|> can't force someone to make that kind of choice just because you don't want
|> that kind of person in your troop. 
|> Qshawn mackinnon
|> Time lord(appentice), Chief scout, 
|> CG
|> Terra, Sol.
|> Ba weep granna weep ninni ba

At what age does the typical gay male know that he is gay?  I would think that
at ages 11-12-13 or so, boys are just beginning to find out who/what they are.
I doubt they can make a lifetime decision at that age.
-- 
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
| Mike Greenawalt           | emg@metaphor.com                           |
| 			    | These opinions are mine, not my employer's |
+---------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: greg@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Greg Kuperberg)
Subject: Are the Girl Scouts Straight and Godly also?
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Univ. of Chicago
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:23:19 GMT

Somehow I can't ask this question without hinting at my opinion, but
here goes anyway:

Apparently, Boy Scouts have to be Straight and Godly these days.  (As
long as they are all Straight and Godly, I wish they would aspire to
truth in advertising and call themselves the SGBSA.)

Do Girl Scouts have to be Straight and Godly also?  If they don't I'll
still buy their cookies.  Please send a copy of your reply by mail.
Thanks in advance.
From: waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: RE: Rec.Scouting change
Date: 21 Nov 92 06:01:30 CST
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

While I am new to the Rec. Scouting fold, I find it pretty
interesting to see the listing wanting to split.  

If you think that this split will result in getting "undesirable"
topics off of the activities or policies screens, think again. 

Scouting in the USA is at a crossroads.  In a few short weeks, we will
have a new Chief Scout Executive.  Later on, the nation will have a 
new President.  Later on still, we will see Scouting again in action
at the 1993 National Scout Jamboree.  We are seeing our programs grow
in diversity and yet we are trying, some of you say with all of our 
might, to hold onto the values that made Scouting what it has been for
the past 83 years.  

I have a sticker that was given out back when we went through our 
"growing pains" in the middle 80s...you may have seen it.  It states
that "America is returning to the values that Scouting never left". 
We may be. On the other hand, we have many issues that face us as a
nation and many more that we have to confront our youth with as the
years go outward. 

For what its worth, each comment is made by a person.  Each person
took the time to think, sometimes with short fuse, other times with
much personal reflection, to type and to send their thoughts to be
shared.  By diffusing the channels in which those thoughts will travel
through the splitting of the list will do several things to those
thoughts.  First, it will make those of us that are interested in ALL
aspects of Scouting, to suscribe to two more lists.  Second, it will 
make cross-postings to all three lists a neccessity rather than a 
luxury, since you cannot talk program without talking about
administration or policy.  You cannot talk policy without it impacting
upon the programs of the Scouting program.  Third, and the most
critical of them all, it places us all into a decision-making mode as
to what is most important: the person or the comment. 

I feel that this list should continue as ONE LISTING, so that everyone
concerned with all aspects of the movement can talk about various
issues, techniques, ideas and gripes in an open forum.  

The first time I read Rec. Scouting, someone was looking for a script
for a Eagle Scout Court of Honor.  This was sandwiched in between the 
ongoing discussion of lesbigays in Scouting and various court cases
defending/against the BSA's stand of religion in the lives of its
youth and adult members.  Yet, I did not have to comment or even read 
each comment....just went to the one that I wanted, extracted it,
replied to the person and left the list and went on my business.  

We do not have to be buried into arguments or discussions we don't
wish to.  While finding questions and answers would be easier on a
list composed of all "actitivies" or all "policies", we would find 
ourselves transposing what is found on the other list onto ours. 

Leave it be. I will vote NO.  

Settummanque!

Mike Walton
Greenwood, Kentucky
From: mgodbout@necis.UUCP (Marc Godbout)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Fund-raising
Keywords: scouts fund raising
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:04:03 GMT
Reply-To: mgodbout@necis.ma.nec.com
Organization: NEC Information Systems, Acton, MA

In our last committee meeting, the subject of fund-raisers came up.  For the
past few years we've been selling candy bars and earning around $1000 profit
for a weekends worth of work.  Other troups in our town do things like Christ-
mas trees and wreaths.  They earn more money, but it takes longer.  It seems
that the $1000 per week figure is fairly constant no matter what is being sold.
Now to the point:  we're getting bored with selling candy bars.  Every Cub 
Scout, athletic, and school organization seems to sell candy bars.  We don't
necessarily need to make more money (although I'm sure we can figure out a way
to spend it :-) but we would like something different, something that our area
may not have seen before.  If your unit has an interesting fund-raiser, could   you please e-mail the idea to me?  If I get enough, I'll compile a list and postto this group.

Thanks.
Marc Godbout
Assistant Scoutmaster
Troup 402
Derry, NH
From: willcox@urbana.mcd.mot.com (David A Willcox)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Cub Scout clip art
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:41:10 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group, Urbana Design Center

Getting back to something more directly related to scouting... :-)

I sent off a couple of files of Cub Scout-related clip art to the
archive at sumex-aim.stanford.edu a few days ago.  They're in
info-mac/art/cub-scout-emblems.hqx and .../cub-scout-clip.art.hqx.
They might show up in comp.binaries.mac one of these eons.

These are in Macintosh PICT format, scanned at 300 dpi from various
stuff I got from the local scout office.

I also have these same images in TIFF format.  If someone would be
willing to take them and convert them into some PC-appropriate format
and submit them to some PC-related archive, let me know.  (I don't
want to become a file server for distributing these, however.)

David A. Willcox		Cubmaster, Pack 114, Urbana, IL
Motorola MCG - Urbana		UUCP: ...!uiucuxc!udc!willcox
1101 E. University Ave.		INET: willcox@urbana.mcd.mot.com
Urbana, IL 61801		FONE: 217-384-8534
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary)
Subject: Re: Violation of Netiqutte (was: Stan - Hatred is unbecoming)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:09:56 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division

mcbeanb@brandonu.ca writes:
> Just accept the fact that the Boy Scouts of America are, by their own
> policy, homophobic Christians.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^

Theists.  Some claim we are actually monotheists.  Calling BSA a
Christian organization is clearly incorrect since there are religious
awards for Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, Islam and other religions.

WWW
Dan Kary
-- 
"And that, my leige, is how we know the earth to be bananna shaped."
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Religion _in_practice_
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:17:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.162459.7647@col.hp.com> kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary) writes:
>Certainly much of religion is ethics.  The distinguishing feature is a
>belief in God (a higher being) and this is a belief common to all religions.

This is a very ethnocentric statement.

There are religions with no such belief in God.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: gays in scouting
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:14:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Nov22.175612.4141@wkuvx1.bitnet>, waltoml@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
> A small history lesson:

An interesting addition to my stock of knowledge; thanks.

> A gay or lesbian Scoutmaster cannot give out that imperiative without
> it becoming a question (from some Scout) that "If God (in my church)
> says that you're sinning, how can then I listen to you??"
> The BSA is NOT denying the presence of lesbigays in our nation; it IS
> denying them PERMISSION to serve as positive role models of behavior
> for its youth members.

The BSA had better figure out a more general answer to this question
than simply banning people from leadership positions.  

A Catholic child might say this today to a married Protestant minister.
A Quaker child might say this today to a veteran.
A Mormon child of a few decades past might have said this to a black 
Scoutmaster.
A Jewish child might say this to anyone eating a ham and egg breakfast.

Certainly the BSA cannot be ready to pull, as role models, every person
who is or does something to which some other religion objects.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: scott@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov (Keith Scott)
Subject: Re: Stan, Stan, Stan and Violation of Netiquette
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 22:09:51 GMT

ENOUGH.  Let's restore a modicum of decency to this group, PLEASE!

I can't believe the Signal-to-Noise ratio has deteriorated, in this, of
all groups.

If you can't demonstrate that "A Scout is ...Friendly, Courteous, Kind,..."
here, then where?

Desist, or take it to email; just leave the rest of us in peace.

-- 

Keith Scott                         
scott@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: castaldi@heroes.glassboro.edu
Subject: HELP WITH SONG...
Organization: Rowan College of New Jersey, Glassboro, NJ 08028
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:19:27 GMT

LAST WEEK AT NATIONAL CAMP SCHOOL, I HEARD A SONG BUT NOONE KNEW ALL THE WORDS.

HERE IS THE PUNCH LINE -

  THERE WAS GRANDMA, SWINGING ON THE OUTHOUSE DOOR : (PAUSE) WITHOUT HER
   NIGHTEY...

IF ANYONE KNOWS THIS, PLEASE POST IT .

BY THE WAY, I'M GONNA BE THE PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR CUB SCOUT DAY CAMP(BSA) AND
THE THEME IS "CIRCUS".  I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE SOME IDEAS ON SONGS, SKITS, 
CRAFTS, GAMES ETC...  ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT - I'M NEW TO THE LITTLE GUYS
PROGRAM.

THANX. JOHN CASTALDI
WOODBADGE NE-IV-58-07


P.S. THIS CRAPPY TERMINAL ONLY DOES CAPITAL LETTERS. SORRY 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: wizzard@wam.umd.edu (The Wizzard)
Subject: Re: COPE
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:30:10 GMT

In article <27720@oasys.dt.navy.mil> talbott@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Walter Talbott) writes:
>This is in response to Bob Haar's comments on the COPE program. It sounds
>like the Lost Lake Scout Reservation program is absolutely super. Does
>anyone out there know of a similar program on the east coast?
>
>Also I'm a new BSA troop leader and would like to attend adult training
>in developing an in-house COPE training program. Does anyone know where
>I can receive this training. I would be willing to travel.
>
>I'm currently planning to take a couple of Tom Browns wilderness courses
>in New Jersey but he is back-logged so I have about a year wait.
>
>My whole plan is basically to get our scouts back in touch with our
>natural surroundings and will be jumping at every opporunity to accomplish
>this.
>
>Thanks for the cooperation.
>
>Walt Talbott

The Lenhoksin (sp?) Trail at Goshen Scout Camps (Virginia) has as one of the
event areas a COPE course (in addition to backpacking, spelunking, rock 
climbing, and more).  I do not know much about it.  You can probably talk
with your local council about "High Adventure Areas" to find out more
about Goshen Scouts Camps' Lenhoksin Trail.

I hope this helps.

Signed,
  Shawn Scoles
  Eagle Class of 1988
  ASM of Troop 299, Hyattsville, MD

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mpg92118@dit.upm.es (ANDRES CANCER ABREU)
Subject: About Scout Law??
Organization: UUES, Asociacion de Usuarios de UNIX, Spain
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:39:06 GMT

This posting may sound strange to you guys in NorthAmerica but....
Im writing from Spain, and reading about the discussions about the 13
point in the Boy Scout law ( lets call it discussions) I discovered
that you use a law with 12 points. The point is that we  use a 10
point Law. 

Could any one mail me a copy of the 12 points Law? Just curiosity.
In the other hand a friend of mine is working with kids from 11-14 and
may like to know it.

Yours in Scouting Andres Akela of the ETAWAH pack.


--
____________________________________________________________________________
\ Andres Cancer Abreu.             $  When I think back in all the crap    / 
\ E.T.S.I. Telecomunicaciones      $  I learn by highschool. It's a wonder /
\ Madrid                           $  how I can think at all.              /
\ e-mail mpg92118@oasis.dit.upm.es $  'Kodachrome' Simon & Garfunkel.      /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mpg92118@dit.upm.es (ANDRES CANCER ABREU)
Subject: Which God Does the Boy Scouts support
Organization: UUES, Asociacion de Usuarios de UNIX, Spain
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:11:58 GMT

I dont know how u guys deal with God but here in Spain A.S.D.E. declares
that every group must have a belief although A.S.D.E. as an organization 
is not attached to any God in particular.

General objetives about Spirit are to be made in such a general form that
may fit in any belief that of course deal with a god.

The only problem in this is to prepare the objetives. But each group has the
freedom to select its own belief ateism is not supported at any rate.

Andres Akela from the ETAWAH Pack.
:ZZ

 


--
____________________________________________________________________________
\ Andres Cancer Abreu.             $  When I think back in all the crap    / 
\ E.T.S.I. Telecomunicaciones      $  I learn by highschool. It's a wonder /
\ Madrid                           $  how I can think at all.              /
\ e-mail mpg92118@oasis.dit.upm.es $  'Kodachrome' Simon & Garfunkel.      /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Subject: Re: Religion _in_practice_
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:23:13 GMT

kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary) writes:
>Getting involved in plannang and conducting Scouting activities is
>certainly a lot more work than just going, but it will take that level of
>involvement to change religious services from basically christian to truely
>non-sectarian.

>I encourage all christian Scouters to make a similar effort and
>I encourage non-christian Scouters to take on an activist role in helping make
>religious services at Scouting events inclusive of their religious beliefs.

What is the point?  Is a religious service really a religious service
if you water it down to those beliefs that are in common to everyone?
Do you honestly think that the intersection of those sets is not null?
If you say it is not null, I venture
to say that what is left is not religion at all, but ethics.
How do you handle the problem of people who don't want to discuss
their religious ideas with you, and, in fact, may not want to discuss
with you the fact that they don't feel comfortable discussing it with you?

Chris Evans
jce@ocean.geol.scarolina.edu