HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Racial Beating
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:30:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: orion.2A9400C8.18590
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1lf-Fm+@engin.umich.edu> Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.134459.24076@natinst.com> Osbert Tan, fellow@natinst.com writes:
>>My question to the net is, how do you deal with this type of situation
>>(i.e. racial slur), at the same time coming out of it with honor/dinity
>>(you fill in the appropriate word(s)) intact and ALIVE ?
>>
>>-Osbert
>
>Why would one need to defend his honor from those type of guys anyways?  
>

Because if you don't defend yourself, you will lose your self-respect.  
Because if you don't defend yourself, these people will feel free to 
do the same thing again and again to you and to others.
Because if you don't defend yourself, the world believes that you
will lie quietly whenever you're stepped on.

Osbert's post did not have a lot of details on the murder.  But, from
the few he gave I think the real question is:

How could he do anything but defend himself?

>The
>Vietnamese guy's actions were probaly just what the thugs wanted.  Sometimes,
>"restraint is the better part of valore."  I can understand the "heat of the
>moment," I've been in that position plenty of times myself.  But when you
>are 19, in Med-school and surrounded by 10+ losers, defending your honor
>is a senseless and a lost cause because it will do you no good (and it didn't).  
I'm certain you do not intend this, but this paragraph makes it sound
as if you're blaming the victim.  You can't expect everyone to show
"restraint" when attacked.  If this young man had not been lynched,
someone else would have been.


John D.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: kerryg@stat.rice.edu (Kerry Go)
Subject: Re: Surviving in a White Man's world
Organization: Dept. of Statistics, Rice University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:40:10 GMT

In article <6296@ucru2.ucr.edu> lulu@guinan.ucr.edu (david lu) writes:
>In article <l90103INNerg@news.bbn.com> ahsiung@labs-n.bbn.com (Anita Hsiung) writes:
>>
>I supposed that for an American-born Asian, being asked what country
>he/she is from can be offensive.  But one can always reply, "United
>States.  What about you?"  :)  Perhaps a better question to ask is
>"what is your background?" or "what is your ancestry?"  It's a
>reasonable question, since most people in the US are not native
>Americans.

It's not the question "Where are you from?" that offends me.  If asked
that, I'll simply say, "Houston."  *But* that answer often gets the
response, "No, really....where are you from?" as if I don't know where
I'm from.  Granted, I don't remember when I was born, and my parents
may have been lying to me all these years, but I don't see why a random
person asking would know more about my birth than I do.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: friednships....
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:52:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.182938.8896@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes:

> This leads us to the questions: 
>	friendship for what?
>  	what is friendship?
>
> We are convinced, aren't we, that nationality, religion, feeding passions
> etc. etc. are not the stuff friendship is made of.
> Then, what is friendship dear Amirthi? :)

Perhaps a rejoicing in diversity?  Both similarities and differences
between people are part of what makes a good friendship, in my
opinion.  If you have no common point of reference, then it's
difficult to communicate....however, if you are completely identical,
then you have nothing to say to each other.

IDIC - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations - really, not a bad
philosophy of life.

>T.Y.

 - Amirthi

>ps: whats in those two cups on your table? :-?

Hot chocolate at the moment...it's cold and rainy out - want some?

	"At the shrine of friendship, never say die.
	May the wine of friendship never run dry..."

					(Les Miserables)



-- 
The autumn leaves are falling like rain.
Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups at my table.		 - A T'ang Dynasty poem
From: db6j+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas S. Brashear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian-American Guys Superior?
Date: 18 Aug 92 06:59:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.0eYF1Ve00Uh_02GGRr
	<1992Aug18.125920.3562@nynexst.com>
Organization: Sophomore, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I dont like it :-)(the article...didnt want to include the whole copy)...
but then I'm caucasian... :-)
:-)
Doug, just kidding, dont take me seriously
db6j+@andrew.cmu.edu
From: mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Why do minority groups whine?
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:59:55 GMT
	<1992Aug12.002610.16584@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
Distribution: usa
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science


   ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu) writes:

   Small children whine when their parents beat them and there's nothing
   they can do about it.

   Minority groups whine because the system beats them and they feel
   there's nothing they can do about it.

Your analysis of why children whine isn't very good.  I suspect that
you don't have children of your own.

I can assure you that children whine because they are tired, hungry,
just feel like whining, have gotten into the habit of whining, or just
have whiney personalities.  One of the children who goes to day care
with my son is simply fragile emotionally, and tends to whine or cry
about tiny little things that don't bother the other children.
Knowing the parents, though, I doubt that there's any beating
involved.

Similarly, some adults who are confronted with a traumatic past,
difficult present, and uncertain future just buckle down and do the
best they can, while others from much more comfortable circumstances
complain about every little injustice in their life.  This seems
independent of "race".

It's not whining to point out the structural inequities in American
culture based on "race", income, and social class, and to urge the
elimination of those inequities.  What becomes whiney is when people
blame those inequities for everything that's wrong with their life.

--Mark Day

mday@lcs.mit.edu
From: ag3l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: What separates us
Date: 15 Aug 92 00:37:23 GMT
Organization: Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


ABCD = American born confused desi
IBCD = Indian born confused desi and so on.

Desi would roughly translate to `fellow country person' in Hindi.

-arun gupta
From: IYI4DTN@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Gann Matsuda)
Subject: Re: Internment camps
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:58:56 PDT

In article <MDAY.92Aug6012418@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu>, on 6 Aug 1992 06:24:18 GMT,
mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day) writes:

>
>   fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>   Much of what is now developed Orange County was originally owned by
>   Japanese and Japanese-Americans, including much of the land proximal
>   to what is now Disney Land and Anaheim Stadium (in fact, I believe
>   much of the land that those two are on WAS originally owned by those
>   same Japanese/Japanese- Americans.) Giving back the land would most
>   likely break some major corporations and possibly the entire
>   California economy as well. Something to consider.
>
>I thought Japanese-Americans couldn't own property in California
>before some ridiculously late date (the late 1940's?).
>
>--Mark
>

Just to clear everything up (if someone has already clarified this,
forgive me), Japanese immigrants (Issei) could purchase land in
California until the Alien Land Law was passed in 1913.  This was a
state law, however, a few other states passed similar laws.

As previously mentioned, there was a loophole in the law that the
Issei used to get around it.  They simply purchased real property
in the name of their children (Nisei, second generation, native-born
American citizens).  California tried to amend the Alien Land Law
to close this loophole, but the courts ruled that it was
unconstitutional to deny citizens the right to own land.

Of course, the irony here is that the Issei were prevented by
racist laws from naturalizing and becoming citizens.  It wasn't until
1952 (McCarran-Walter Act) when Asian immigrants could become citizens.

And, of course, the fact that the Issei made no moves to become
citizens before the war was used against them as a justification to
lock them up in CONCENTRATION CAMPS, not "Internment Camps."  Because
they weren't citizens and had made no effort to become citizens, they
were thought to be disloyal.  Of course, the government made no effort
to inform the public that it wasn't possible for them to become
citizens, either. :-(

Anyway, I hope that clears up the land ownership questions.

Gann Matsuda
Coordinator
50th Anniversary of Japanese American Internment Project
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: chenh@neptune.ecs.csus.edu (H. Philip Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: I want my KTSF!!  (oops, this is not MTV)
Summary: Lets not do the twist
Date: 13 Aug 92 01:40:57 GMT
Organization: California State University, Sacramento


This is a continuation of the TV/cable station story that I mentioned here
recently.


Please press 'n' to skip this article if you're not interested. (Thanks!)



Summary:  The International Channel basically took over channel 2 which was
previously occupied by KTSF26.  However from 9pm to 12 midnight, KTSF comes
on this channel, as recently negotiated/planned.  (It'll be on from 7 pm
to midnight on weekends.)


Below are some paragraphs taken from the Tuesday's papers.  (Sorry, I'm kinda
lazy to type the whole article in.  It's Wednesday -- Fox night!  (But I'll
gladly type everything in later if netters want me to.))


Title:  S.F. foreign-language shows return to cable
By Kimberly Moy, Sacramento Bee staff writer.
     [...]
     Representatives of local ethnic communities praised the plan at a news 
conference Monday but called it a "partial victory."
     "The best thing is for Sacramento Cable to carry both KTSF and the 
International Channel," said Jim Booty of the Sacramento Rizal Lions Club,
a Filipino-American organization.
     [...]
     Local foreign-language speakers objected to switch on several grounds,
including the loss of a Northern California-produced Cantonese newscast and
a reduction in the number of Japanese- and Italian-language programs.
     [...]
     Anne Eisenberg, interim president of the Sacramento Jewish Federation,
joined Booty and others in voicing support for Sacramento Cable carrying 
both Channels.  She also noted that many members of the Jewish community are
excited about the Hebrew language programs on the International Channel.



{end of selected paragraphs}

=======================================================


No, I don't think that's the end of the story.

Local people (including some in the City Council) are still trying to get
the cable company to change their mind.  One of them suggested the cable
company do another market research, and he basically said that they
"missed a large segment of the population." (paraphrased)  (Methinks they
didn't expect this type of reaction either!)

Oh well, the more people - the merrier!  I'm glad to see people from various
backgrounds pull (make that "pool") together regarding this issue.  (This
kinda thing doesn't happen everyday!)



Cheers,

-phil

ps. draw your own conclusion(s)
pps. typos are mine
ppps. include the usual disclaimer here
pppps. there're a few AA news/sports/etc reporters (men and women) on the 
  mainstream stations here.  (yeah, they've got "TV hair" too.  1/2 :-))
From: edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Surviving in a White Man's world
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:07:15 GMT
Organization: RAND Corporation.

This is just a minor historical nit.

In article <6223@ucru2.ucr.edu> lulu@troi.ucr.edu (david lu) writes:
> . . . .
>Japan-bashing goes way back to WWII.   . . . .

Actually, Japan-bashing goes way, WAY back to before the turn of the
century.  Then it was sort of a follow-on to Chinese-bashing, which was
pretty much an exercise in racism and politics, but after the Japanese
won the Russo-Japanese war the various "yellow peril" theories (that
Asians would attempt to conquer the West coast of the US) started
gaining wide acceptance and focused on the Japanese in particular.  In
those days Japan-bashing was much less subtle in its racism.  But even
though some of the "bashing" of today is based in economic realities
and not just paranoia, there are still echoes back to that era.

		-Ed Hall
		edhall@rand.org
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Economics of Discrimination Re: Why do minority groups whine?
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:18:47 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Distribution: usa
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <44607@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu (John
Kawakami) writes:
|>From: kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami)
|>Subject: Re: Economics of Discrimination Re: Why do minority groups whine?
|>Date: 16 Aug 92 12:03:29 GMT
|>
|>In article <7738@public.BTR.COM> timlee@btr.com (Timothy J. Lee) writes:
|>>hira@cme.nist.gov writes:
|>>|
|>>|Boy that sounds suspiciously like one of those nonsensical conservative 
|>>|economic arguments against affirmative action. "If one company
discriminates,
|>>|its going to cost X amount more to operate. Then they're going to lose to
|>>|the competition. Therefore, in a free market, there cannot be any 
|>>|discrimination. And I have the Econometric model to PROVE it." Yeah right.
|>>
|>>Actually, that's kind of true in many cases (professional sports,
|>>on the player level, is one example).  But if the discriminated
|>>against minority is small, then the cost to the discriminator (i.e. not
|>>employing the best people, etc.) may be small enough that it would not
|>>be noticed.
|>
|>Often though, the best person for the job will be very much like the people
|>already there, because they will be percieved as the "best fit."  Also, most
|>jobs don't demand the best of the worker; most jobs require that you show up
|>for work and perform the required duties.  In these jobs where there are few
|>criteria for employment other than punctuality and obsequiousness, factors
|>like race and gender become relatively important because they allow one to
|>distinguish between individuals.
|>
|>There is no reason to integrate under these conditions.  In fact, there is
|>a good reason to segregate and discriminate: you can pit the different
|>ethnic groups against each other and weaken labor organizing.

I agree. The free market will solve everything approach is appallingly lacking
in modelling the real world. These economists that claim they have econometric
models of this should be viewed extremely skeptically. So much of hiring is 
done subjectively and not objectively. There is real racism in hiring and 
promoting practices out in the "real" world, not in the economagician's
rational
expectation world. BTW, has anyone read the Gary Becker material on the 
subject?

Ron


|>-- 
|>John Kawakami                  kawakami@ocf.berkeley.edu
|>                               ucbvax!ocf.berkeley.edu!kawakami
                                  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: wung@eecom.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Reply-To: wung@eecom.gatech.edu
Organization: School of EE, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:25:19 GMT

In article 23485@alice.att.com, jj@alice.att.com (jj, clueless old white boy) writes:
>|In article <1992Aug18.151419.17348@ee.gatech.edu> wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu writes:
>|>JJ, the real point is this, when I walk into an interview, or a bank loan
>|>interview, I walk in with baggage because of the way I look.  Given that your 
>|>average white Joe Blow has the good sense to dress for the occasion, he can
>|
>|You're missing several points.  Your point is valid, but it is only
>|A point, and is certainly not the ONLY point.  Any loan application
>|has 'parents address', 'address of closest living relative' and that
>|sort of thing, and you may be SURE that the interviewer will
>|read it.  Likewise for a job interview.    In a loan interview,
>|I've yet to NOT be asked "what did your parents do for a living",
>|"did they give you any money", "are you SURE", "you'll have to
>|have a gift letter for your down payment", (me) "It's NOT a
>|bloody Gift, my mother HAS no money", "hmmm, write write write",
>|and then a week later the "where is your gift letter" notice
>|comes,and they we have to go fight with them, and so on.  You get
>|the "you can't have possibly have saved that much, where you come from"
>|and so on.
>|
>|You're right, the prejudice doesnt' come from the face, it comes
>|from the paperwork and from the what you sit, the way
>|you handle situations, etc.
>|
JJ, now you are missing my point.  The thing is, disgarding all this stuff about family, money, connections, etc.  Which is difficult to do, but for the sake of 
arguement we need to isolate the root of the problem.  Somebody other than
a white male, in this case an asian male, going into an interview with another white male will suffer for the previous experiences the interviewer has had with 
other asian males.  

Now, putting all the other stuff into the mix, i.e. the family, the money, the 
connections, you are still one up on me because they look at all that stuff PLUS
my face and family name and all of his perceptions of people who look like me and 
my heritage.  I do not intend for this to be acrimonious, but it frustrates me to 
have to battle this out, day in and day out.

---
****************************************************************************
*Peter Wung				Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory		Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering		    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology				    	   *        *Atlanta, Georgia							   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...						   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy.  		   *
*									   *
****************************************************************************
From: shaw@whopper.lcs.mit.edu (Andy Shaw)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: One does not a people make (was: Re: Keeping in mind ....)
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:48:58 GMT
	<1992Aug11.144513.19635@nynexst.com>
	<HIEBELER.92Aug11140948@custard.think.com>
	<1992Aug12.112544.18198@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
Distribution: na
Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, Mass.

In article <1992Aug12.112544.18198@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> bgt@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue) writes:
   In article <HIEBELER.92Aug11140948@custard.think.com> hiebeler@think.com (Dave Hiebeler) writes:
   ->
   ->In article <1992Aug11.144513.19635@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
   ->
   ->> Could you elaborate on how you were made to feel like a "token"?
   ->> Did they make unkind statements, or make patronizing statements
   ->> like "oh you sing Chinese so well for an American (er I mean
   ->> white girl)".
   ->> ...
   ->> If you're genuinely interested in understanding I'm sure you can
   ->> find people who won't shut you out.  Why concentrate on the
   ->> close-minded people of any particular clique and getting
   ->> frustrated to the point of withholding respect for the whole
   ->> group based on the actions of a few?
   ->
   ->  I am also curious about why Barbara felt that way.  Actually, if

   ah, the things one accepts when one's selfEsteem is nonExistent.

Ummm...

Your self-esteem was non-existent, and you tried to join an Asian
group/clique?  Frankly, if I were a member of that group, I wouldn't feel
too flattered -- people with no self-esteem don't try to shoot for the
dominant group, they tend to try to hang out with the losers, who they
think will accept them easier.  Think about it: you're in an Asian group,
and a white woman with no self-esteem tries to join it, and is frustrated
when she isn't accepted immediately.  What does that say about your social
standing?  It says you're a bunch of losers -- most of the time, you can
ignore this fact while you have fun with your friends, but when someone
with no self-esteem (but from a higher caste) tries to join and expects to
be accepted immediately, it kind of smacks you in the face: you're a loser,
with no social standing, and everyone thinks they can join your group, even
people with zero self-esteem.

Frankly, this social stuff is kind of vicious ... vicious for you because
the group did not want to accept you in order to retain its exclusivity
(and their sense of dignity) and vicious for them, because they were given
notice of their LOW social status when someone with no self-esteem chose to
enter them.

   that feeling was generated because of lack of communication, mainly.
   it was my choice to accept it; now in my vast old age i can see where
   i should have said, hey, goodbye.  but these things happen.

   my current circle of friends is quite wonderful.  i have no problems
   there.  everything is a growing process....

-Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: jj@alice.att.com (jj, clueless old white boy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Call For New FAQ
Date: 16 Aug 92 05:51:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23462
Reply-To: jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy)
Distribution: usa
Organization: NJ State Home for Bewildered Terminals

In article <1992Aug14.143041.28106@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>  That's a good idea.  Often-times I'm not sure if the AsAm guy
>  was not interested, or that the AAF didn't give out enough
>  hints.  Although it seems that it is a lot easier to get a
>  white guy to ask you out just by dropping a little hint.
>  Some of the AAMs you hit over the head and then they act
>  like they're not interested.  
HINTS? HINTS?

Arrrghhhhhh, this isn't an Asian issue, american or otherwise,
THIS IS A Sex role model issue, one of a bunch that's every
bit as bad as the race issues in our society.

WHY HINT?

Why does the guy have to be the predator?  Perhaps some of these
AAM's don't LIKE being a predator?  Maybe that's why they
don't ask?  I dunno, just speculating.


JUST ASK the poor guy.  If it no va, it's not YOUR fault!
-- 
 Bush    *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
   vs       *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
 Clinton  --    *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
 Just Say !NO!       *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.
From: hassan@cup.portal.com (hassan monu alam)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: ORIENTALS???????
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 00:27:41 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

John,

As a serious answer to your question, calling and East-Asian
Oriental is like calling a fat person "Fatty", which while
accurate, is not something one would do to ones friends.

As for the name change, it seems as if a continent has been
identified with a race. West-Asians (Persians and Arabs),
and South-Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, etc) have little in
common in ethos or culture with newly proclaimed "Asians". 

One would surmise physical characteristics with a continent
(I hate using the word race, because there really is no tight

definition for it). So just as the Caucasian group is identified with
Europe (and N. America), and the "Black" group (please no offense
intended) with Africa (though Northern Africa is dominantly Arab),
these people would tie East Asian facial features to Asia.

Imagine my surprise when I first arrived in the US of A and
attended an Asian American function. Ce'st la vie.

Hassan