HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 23:50:34 GMT


In article <1992Nov13.014039.3107@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>
>Did Israel state its ambitions of not annexing the Golan Heights and West bank
>also?. You lost again.

Fist, Israel didn't annex the West Bank. Second, the Golan and the West Bank were
lost by the Arabs in a war they started in 1967. 


>A.Faris


---
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Celebration in the Streets
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:40:07 GMT

In article 25497@linus.mitre.org, m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>
>After Clinton was elected, there were celebrations in the streets in two
>cities:
>		Little Rock, Arkansas
>		Bagdad, Iraq
>
>Think about it.
>
>
>--
>James W. Meritt:  m23364@mwunix.mitre.org - or - jmeritt@mitre.org
>The opinions above are mine.  If anyone else wants to share them, fine.
>They may say so if they wish. The facts "belong" to noone and simply are.


It just shows one more time the primitiveness of the Baghdad propaganda.
As a matter of fact, after celebration, people in Iraqi capital began to ask question:
" Who is Bill Clinton?" 

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:04:21 GMT

In article <Nov.9.18.41.32.1992.925@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>
>>My God!  Look what the cat dragged in!  MARWAN!  Glad to see you're still
>>alive and posting absurdities. 
>
>Manu ... Long time no read... It is really funny that you even mention
>the word "absurd" when all your postings (including this one) usually
>smell stincky.
>
>>	Where do you go, Rutgers?  I think that says it all.
>>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>
>Just where/what on earth is claremont ??!!!

Not to prolong this argument, because I think it's silly, but Claremont-
McKenna college - which I assume is where Manu's posting from - is in
Claremont, California, a suburb of Los Angeles.  The college is quite
good - if you check USNWR's rankings it's consistently in the top 25 for
small liberal arts colleges nationally.  I should know - I went to
Occidental College, also in the LA area, and one of CMC's main
competitors.  I was recruited by both CMC and Pomona - CMC's sister
school - but decided on Oxy because of the financial situation.

Eric


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Litani River
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:25:01 GMT

In article <1dd618INNf5r@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan
McKay) writes:
> The Litani River and/or its water was on Zionist "wish lists" many
> times this century.  However, I have never heard of real evidence
> that Israel is currently diverting water from it, or ever did so
> this decade.  I know that the UN investigated it but found nothing.
> If anyone knows of more than mere accusations, they ought to say so.
> 
> Brendan.    

Regarding this subject, there is a thread going on in
soc.culture.lebanon. currently. Note this particular article (reposted
without permission):

*****
I have long suspected along many other Lebanese, that the
Litani river's waters were being diverted by the Israelis.
The other day, I was talking to a Professor preparing a
UN report on the Litani river, and he asked me as a Lebanese
professional, to review his report and give him my opinion.
In the past whenever claims of Israeli diversion of the
headwaters of the Litani, in the area controlled by Israel
and its surrogates were raised, the pro-Israeli people
on the net were quick to dismiss these suspicions and
challenge anyone to provide a proof,that any such diversion exists.
Now, after reviewing the report, I can confidently say that
we soon will have proof of the Israeli water diversion.
According to that report and a comprehensive book, which
has extensive data on the Litani river flows, the waters of the Hasbani, 
which is a tributary stream to the Litani in the Israeli controlled
region, are currently being diverted to Israel.
The data were taken by an Israeli commissioned  study done by
Aaron Wolfe, an Israeli researcher, and his data will be available 
in a book soon to be released called _The Litani_ written by
John Collors.  I am not sure when the book will be
released, it is still in draft status.  I am going to
get a copy of the UN report and post excerpts from it to s.c.l.
According to the report satellite imagery has confirmed
the existence of a  water pipeline dug secretly by the
Israelis which currently conveys the waters, to the
Northern Israeli territory.
When the book is released, I am sure we will hear more
about this issue, since it has come-up repeatedly in
the ongoing Lebanese-Israeli Peace negociations.
I suspect Israel will wrestle from Lebanon the legal
rights to the water diversion in place, as a price
for its withdrawal.  Let's face it folks, Israel has vital
interests in Lebanon that go beyond security for its 
northern border, it is up to us to speak up and uphold the 
Lebanese inalienable rights to _OUR_ land and _OUR_ water.
More details to follow,  and I hope then to provide
solid published references.

Basil (bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan))
***************

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:29:49 GMT

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

> 
>Thus if the peace process comes to an end (which it will),...

Do you have some inside information?  Perhaps that the Arabs have
decided that there's just so long they can stall before there's some
pressure to reciprocate with at least a few confidence building
measures, at which time they plan a confidence destroying measure?

>... Israel will annex
>south Lebanon. ...

Considering the fact that Israel has clearly stated it has no
territorial ambitions regarding Lebanon (even the right wing Likud
government said that!), this seems rather imaginative.

>... Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of
>Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the
Jordan >river for future conques

If you really believe this nonsense, perhaps you should try
encouraging the Arab states to start negotiating seriously.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:55:51 GMT
 <1992Oct28.171730.28383@muddcs.claremont.edu> <Nov.9.18.41.32.1992.925@caip.rutgers.edu>
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <Nov.9.18.41.32.1992.925@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>
>>My God!  Look what the cat dragged in!  MARWAN!  Glad to see you're still
>>alive and posting absurdities. 
>
>Manu ... Long time no read... It is really funny that you even mention
>the word "absurd" when all your postings (including this one) usually
>smell stincky.
>
>>	Where do you go, Rutgers?  I think that says it all.
>>Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            
>
>Just where/what on earth is claremont ??!!!

It figures...given your recent post on oil pricing.  Claremont is one of the
premier schools in the country at which to study economics, policy, etc.

If you're an engineer, you should have heard of Harvey Mudd, one of the Claremont
Colleges (along w/ Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Scripps,....feel free to jump
in, Geoff).

>______________________________________________________________________________
>                                                                             _
>Marwan Gharaybeh:                         ||                               _(_ 
>                                          ||               | |               |
>Better Known as ...                       ||    ()         | |               |
>                                          ||           _   | |      .-     | |
>Hadi el-gossah gossat hamdah ...          ||      \___/ \__/ |      (_|____/ |
>Hamdah, el-rimsh elly yitehaddah ...      ||       |  \_/    |        |      |
>galat mareedak ...                        ||  \___/      /   |   \___/    *  |
>mareedak, lo tethbahnee be`eedak mareedak.||            /
>===============================================================================


-- 
Anwar Mohammed <anwar+@cs.cmu.edu> Vox:(412) 268-3043 Fax:(412) 421-8661
ASAP PhD SCS CMU. "You'll note that politicians no longer spend money,
they invest it.  Don't worry about paying more to the [IRS].  You aren't
being taxed; you're taking a plunge on a fly-by-night stock issue." - P.J.
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Question in Arabic (was: Re: EGYPT: LET MY....)
Date: 4 Nov 92 12:02:19 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Ohm Salam (aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu) wrote:
: Danny writes:
: 
: >What does "Om Coltum" mean? There was a very famous Egyptian singer by that
: >name.
: 
: Um Kalthoum, as you said, was the popular singer some years ago.  I am not
: sure of the *exact* meaning of the word Kalthoum, but my brother told me
: once that it meant underwear ... :-)

 The word "Kulthum" means cheeks. Little kids are described as "Mukaltham"
 which means "has beautiful cheeks".
: 
: What do you say Yahia?
 Well, i'm not Yahia, but i hope my answer is OK :-).
: 
: Anisa
:
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to nabeel
Date: 13 Nov 92 22:54:31 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov13.044328.12261@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof) writes:
>
>	Neither does the discussion about the Egyptian singer.  She maybe
>	mideastern but it had nothing to do with politics.  Of course I
>	forgot you're too mature for me oh Ohm Maturity.

So perhaps you should address your concerns to Danny Keren, who originally
asked the question.  It didn't specifically have to do with politics but
with Middle East culture, whereas you are just using this opportunity to
put Marwan down, and debating about what institution is better has no
relevance to this newsgroup and no interest to many people.

And we should expect you to eat your words about maturity because I am
more than one or two years older than you and my writings do not resort
to infantilism.

Anisa
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: READ MY LIPS, NO MORE BUSHIT
Date: 12 Nov 92 12:29:36 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov9.155653.19610@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

~Like 10,000 in Sabra and Shattila...
~
~Keep it coming, John.  The more you offer, the better it sounds.

 I think the relief agencies estimated in excess of 3,000 killed in Sabra and
Shatila, in which case John is out by a factor of ~3. Which is still a lot
better than the TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE by which Amos Yaron's claim of "around 30"
managed to miss the mark 

 By the way, Brendan mentioned the Kahane report. Maybe someone can refresh my
memory by posting the recommendations of that report vis_a_vis Sharon and Yaron,
and contrast that with what actually happened to them.....






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

"I have to scan these posts in case Jeremy includes some line
out of context in his .sig" - FriendOfFernandoKhomeini.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:25:58 GMT

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>In article <1dn0i5INNb29@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>|> 
>|> In article 18155@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>|> >In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>|> 
>|> >|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
>|> [...]
>|> 
>|> >Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.
>|> 
>|> I don't have a clear idea of this.  I think it varied during his life,
>|> but I don't know of any instance where he called for an empire from the
>|> Nile to the Euphrates as a few Zionists did.  Certainly he wanted all
>|> of what was called Palestine in 1937 (now Israel+WB+Gaza) but probably
>|> also Lebanon up to the Litani, the Golan, and parts of Jordan.
>|> 
>|> >A.Faris
>|> 
>|> Brendan.
>|>
> 
>Thus if the peace process comes to an end (which it will), Israel will annex
>south Lebanon. Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of 
>Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the Jordan
>river for future conquest.

That's a good one - I suppose you will also claim that Israel is settling
S. Lebanon.  I think Israel has enough Arabs to deal with - they don't need
all of those in S. Lebanon.

>A.Faris

Ed Shnekendorf

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:34:27 CST

In article <1d9sckINN90o@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
> 
> Mr. Noam there is nothing worse than an ignorant, arrogant Zionist!


	How about an ignorant, arrogant, serial-killer Zionist?

 
> Eyad ---


Noam




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: 1967 war again (was: Re: Rebel attack....)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:05:43 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>I didn't flame Alan for claiming that the 1967 war was Egypt's fault;
>I flamed him for thinking that quoting some unsourced shit out of
>Myths and Facts was a way to prove it.

>Maybe you can establish the same things from genuine sources (real
>histories like Neff, Lacqueur, or memoirs like Sadat). That's not 
>the point.  I don't post things out of Background Briefing (a PLO
>publication that our library gets) as "facts", so I don't see why
>I should have any patience with people who do the equivalent.

There's a significant difference between Myths & Facts and PLO
propaganda.  While both are biased, the factual material in Myths &
Facts is reliable, while anti-Israel propaganda in general pays little
attention to the truth.  (Remember how the anti-Israel propaganda in
1982 had every resident of Beirut killed several times over?)
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 12 Nov 1992 20:50:07 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <Nov.12.13.22.59.1992.8164@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
|> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
|> 
|> >	I would like you to citye an example of when Israel rounded up
|> >	the residents of a village and executed them.  Until then, your
|> >	post is pure BS.
|> 
|> Manu ... Your reply is not consistent with the contents of my post this
|> is why I am not quit sure who is the B.Ser among the two of us ... 
|> Anyway, I did not mean that they are exactly equal but I meant that they
|> very similar. But since you asked for it the Hagana did round up several
|> arabic villages in 1948, killed most of their residents, took a photograph
|> of the massacre and then distribute it throughout palestine with a line
|> on the bottom saying "This is what will happen to you if you do not
|> leave".

If they rounded up several such villages then you should have no problem
naming some of them....please do so.

|> Now to go back to the subject of my post.I meant that when 
|> Israel retaliates for the death of one of its soldiers that is illegally 
|> occupying south lebanon by bombing villages killing mostly innocent
|> civilians is very similar to the nazi ways.

I would like to point out one thing.  If the Hizbollah operates from
within villages, and is supported by the local populace, then how innocent
are these villagers?  If I am giving you food and shelter, doesn't that
violate my non-combatant status?

I would appreciate comments from anyone knowledgeable about int'l law....

|> If we look at the motives behind what the nazis/israelis did we can simply 
|> conclude that it is to scare out the resistance freedom-fighters
|> so that they would know that they would not get away with it even though
|> they might be successful in escaping the israeli/nazi blood-thirsty
|> guns ... They would get it in the life of their beloved wifes sons and
|> daughters.

I think that the motives you assign the Israelis are inappropriate.
Yes, they would like to see the attacks stopped, but I don't think that
the retribution they intend is on the family level.  I think it is
more on a military impersonal level - though this can be frightening
enough in its own right.

	Shai
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Litani River
Date: 6 Nov 1992 07:14:48 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

The Litani River and/or its water was on Zionist "wish lists" many
times this century.  However, I have never heard of real evidence
that Israel is currently diverting water from it, or ever did so
this decade.  I know that the UN investigated it but found nothing.
If anyone knows of more than mere accusations, they ought to say so.

Brendan.    


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:26:46 GMT

In article 1dnnh0INNcie@manuel.anu.edu.au, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>In article 25720@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>>In article <1dn0i5INNb29@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> 
>>|> In article 18155@trl.oz.au, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
>>|> >In article <1dk9h2INNnqm@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>
>>|> >|>       MEQ #17.  Teveth on Ben-Gurion's vision of the future of Israel, 1937.
>>|> [...]
>
>>|> >Did Ben-Gurion have an idea of where the Jewish state's borders should be?.
>
>>|> I don't have a clear idea of this.  I think it varied during his life,
>>|> but I don't know of any instance where he called for an empire from the
>>|> Nile to the Euphrates as a few Zionists did.  Certainly he wanted all
>>|> of what was called Palestine in 1937 (now Israel+WB+Gaza) but probably
>>|> also Lebanon up to the Litani, the Golan, and parts of Jordan. 
>
>>Thus if the peace process comes to an end (which it will), Israel will annex
>>south Lebanon. Then 2/3 of the Israeli expansion goal beyond the borders of 
>>Palestine would have been realised. This leaves the east bank of the Jordan
>>river for future conquest.
>
>I don't think that follows.  Ben-Gurion is not the boss any more, nor is
>Shamir (whose politics was closer to BG's than most people will admit;
>this comment will get me flamed, ho ho :=).  One can speculate that 
>permanent annexation of part of south Lebanon was one of the long-term 
>aims of the 1982 war, but (a) there's no solid direct evidence of that, 
>and (b) Israel now knows that nothing short of the most draconian measures 
>could "pacify" the south to the extent where settlement was possible.
>My bet is that annexation is not currently considered to be a realistic
>option.  I just wish Israel would hurry up and realise that there is
>only one option, and that is withdrawal from Lebanon.
>
>>A.Faris
>
>Brendan.
>


I just want to see You living, let us say.. in Kiriat Shmona or in Rosh-Ha-Nikra with no buffer zone on the norhtern border of Israel...
The safety of your children is at stake, your Real Estate investment is at stake..etc.
It is easy to give advice when you are not an involved party.

Hank.
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:52:22 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>In article <Nov.12.13.22.59.1992.8164@caip.rutgers.edu>, marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

>I would like to point out one thing.  If the Hizbollah operates from
>within villages, and is supported by the local populace, then how innocent
>are these villagers?  If I am giving you food and shelter, doesn't that
>violate my non-combatant status?

Let me go with your logic for a minute and see where this leads to. You
are implying that the civilians are responsible and should be slaughtered.
For example if we have a 6 year old boy living in a village where some of
those resistanse heros live, then the Israeli vampires should thrive on
this young boy's blood. Taking this screwed up logic why do we hear this
loud critisim about terrorism since you say that civilians and militery
are at the same level of responsibility ?!!!

>I would appreciate comments from anyone knowledgeable about int'l law....

My friend you do not need a knowledgeable person to tell you weather
or not it is illegal to kill innocent lives for the sake of revenge.
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ACTION ALERT!! An Arab village is to be wiped out
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:11:53 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1dcck0INNbop@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, eyad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Eyad M. Alnuweiri) writes:
> In article <1992Nov4.171930.11972@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

		[...]

 
>>Can someone supply more information about the case of Ramya (the
>>size of the village - I remember 17 families), their current
>>living conditions (rather poor as I recall) and the options
>>offered to them?
> 
> So, I think you mean as long as these people are few poor paesants, it is
> fine to take over their land. Danny... take a class in the Psychology of
> prejudice, I am sure it will help you.



	Strangely enough...  Danny once told me that he got an F in 
	this very class because the professor didn't understand what 
	he (Danny) wrote in the exam...  Weird, man, weird.

 
> I am eager to hear how other readers are going to respond to this nonsense.



	Well, I think that this nonsense is very regretable, and
	I hope that we won't have to read such nonsense anymore.
 




>>-Danny Keren.                                          

> eyad


Noam