From: fenthe@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.juggling
Subject: Five ball hints; summary (LONGish)
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:02:58 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club


 (these are the responses from mail and news; thus some of this has
already appeared. Sorry for the duplication, but I thought
completeness was more important.)

 Many thanks to all those who responded; I'm trying things and it's
certainly helped. (though now my /left/ hand moves forward.. <sigh>
 <grin> At least, if I can fix the right hand, I can fix the
left..)

I originally wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------

 I'm currently trying to learn 5 balls; I've now got to the point
where I can get runs of ten to fifteen throws regularly, but every
time the same thing happens; my right-hand throws come closer to my
body, and my left-hand further away, so that I wind up turning
towards the left (anticlockwise if seen from above). It gets to the
point that, when I stop, the final right-hand throw will
occasionally land behind me; the left-hand throws seem to be less
of a problem, except in as much as they exaggerate the rotation.

 Barring the obvious, namely keep practising, has anyone got any
specific hints for this particular problem? (I'm left-handed, for
what it's worth; I got to five via the four ball crossing patterns,
which seemed to help a great deal; that, and getting three in the
left hand down properly).

 Thanks.

 -- Fenthe

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From: NAYLORD@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Anyway, the advice that I've often been given is to try
make the pattern turn the other way. This might sound
stupid. But if you can turn the pattern voluntarily both
ways, then you can control it enough to stay put.

This might not work for your 5 ball problem, because you are
probably not getting long enough runs to make this work. But,
it might be worth practising with a 4 ball crossing pattern - to
get the hang of turning a pseudo-5 pattern in the opposite
direction.

It's just a thought. If nothing else, the extra 552 or 5550
practise might help.

5 balls is well worth the effort! You won't regret the time
and frustration.

David Naylor.

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From: celarier@reed.edu (Stuart Celarier)

Nine times out of ten, this is due to one of your wrists getting lazy  
after you start, so that toss is going in front of you, in your case your  
left wrist isn't keeping the tosses going UP rather than OUT.  The right  
hand tosses ending up behind you is an consequence of your right hand  
having to throw with back to the left hand while the left arm more and  
more extended.

Some people end up trying to compensate for this by turning towards the  
toss that goes long in front, in your case rotating to the right.  
Performers have been noted doing this, especially with a five ball  
cascade, making one full revolution and stopping.

I would encourage practicing in front of a wall so you can really keep an  
eye on where your left hand _starts_ to go bad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rmurphy@girtab.usc.edu (rmurphy@girtab.usc.edu)

I had this same problem and originally thought that it surfaced
only in my 5-ball juggling.  Then one day I was juggling 4 in a normal
synchronous fountain(i.e. right hand and left hand throws occur at the
same time) and discovered a problem.  My right and left hand patterns
were NOT mirror images of each other.  My left hand was always held out
a couple of inches further away from my body than was my right hand.
I spent some time making my 4 ball pattern more symmetric and then went
back to attempting 5 balls.  I saw a definite improvement!
Now I practice that 4-ball pattern a little bit every day before I start
on 5 balls.  

I also have found that it is useful to juggle 3 to the height of your
5-ball cascade.  Since I usually have a very low and fast 3-ball 
cascade, I sometimes find this high 3-ball cascade to be somewhat boring.
But it is also very helpful.  It gives you the time to really concentrate
on throwing the balls to the exact same height.  You also can think
about your hand positions and make sure that they are both the same
distance from your body.

---------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lewis AJ <A.J.Lewis@ecs.southampton.ac.uk>

Yeah - the same thing happened to me, and to almost everyone else I
spoke to about it, and I'm afraid that my advice now is what theirs
was, which is just what you didn't want to hear - keep practising.

More specifically, keep doing the four ball crossing stuff, three ball
chases, and all the other exercises, 'cos they'll still help. The other
thing is, between each attempt at five, center yourself - straighten
your posture, relax the shoulders, make sure you're not twisted round at
all, and RELAX.

---------------------------------------------------------------

From: andyv@minster.york.ac.uk

If its any consolation it sounds like we're at the same stage !
I'm on about 10 to 15 runs with 5 too, having got there via 4 ball
crossing patterns. I'm right handed and my problme is that my left 
hand insists on throwing about a foot and a half away from me -- right
handed throws don't seem too bad. Its getting better, but only by _really_
concentrating on those throws (not much help I agree).

I think practising 3 ball showers (both ways) is a good practise;
as is 4 ball half showers. It helps to be able to keep these going 
for long times. I chatted to our local 5 ball ace and he basically
just said to keep practising -- and when you do throw a ball to the
wrong place; make sure you bring it back to the right place before 
throwing it again. It means you'll drop more often, but it means
that you won't be perpetuating the pattern !

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From: cutler@void.rtsg.mot.com (Elliot P. Cutler)

I've been at this for a long time and the barrier is just coming into
focus.  For me 20 catches is the best but it never gets to "Look Ma
no hands!"  I've begun to see affects that occurr only after the first
15 catches or so, yours I think may be one of them.  Mine was that my
first three throws went both high and fast causing the juggle to be
more like a steal, where I had to "catch" the motion in progress.
I started throwing the first three with a LOT more lesiure and found I
saved much energy.  Does this make any sense? You would seem to be 
juggling long enough for your hands to get comfortable(?) and relaxed
 ,good, but then they get too relaxed and get sloppy, bad.  Apart
from Keep alert! I might suggest you count your catches in tens and 
each time you start to count again it will remind you to "ground"
yourself and not get to lazy (always a problem).  I have learned
(suprize) that I have a lot more control of the throws than I think
and that I can steer the left one (my problem) back to me when 
I think about it.  The throws should never really be automatic
I think, but accurate and thought out.  Too much talk

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From: rick@nullset.UUCP    

Accurate throws are much more important for numbers juggling than
for 3 or 4 balls.  In my experience, the best way to develop accuracy
is to do something easier so that you can concentrate on the throws.

Either 3 balls at a 5 ball height (as Bob Murphy already pointed out)
or 5 ball flashes would be good.

When you do these things, you must first demand good throws of                  
yourself, and then remember what those throws felt like so you
can incorporate them into the full 5 ball.

Try going back to your 4 ball crossing, and make sure that the
throws as perfect as humanly possible.  
Since you're left handed, you should be spending more time on the   
right hand.  Try learning a 3 in the right hand and/or do a lot of   
two in the right hand at a 5 ball height with *perfect* throws.
Newsgroups: rec.juggling