From: GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet
Subject: Lets put this one to rest...
Reply-To: GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:56:32 GMT

------------------------------
I will respond to the reactions from my previous article en masse, and
then I will let the matter drop.  The responses ranged from very angry,
to very informative.  I feel that I have come away with a deeper understanding,
and thank those who took the time to reason with me.  I also understand the
anger in some replies, and take no offense, and hope none was given.
I did get some positive replies by email, but the group response was,
well, mixed at best.  The tone on the net has been angry enough of late,
with the emotional roller coaster we have been on with Jerry and all.
In retrospect, this was not a good time to grate on irritated nerves.
Even as Devil's advocate, I will tone things down for a while, till we
are all happy campers again.  PEACE


|From: richter@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Jean Richter)
|Subject: Re: WARNING !   FLAMEBAIT with minimal ODC  Read at your own risk!
|Date: 17 Nov 1992 23:19:12 GMT
Flamebait was not the intent.  Perhaps 'controversial material' would have
better expressed my intentions, which were not to start a stupid net.war.

|So, with a subject line like that, why the hell did you post it here?
Due to the extended coverage of the events in Colorado, and what the
Deadhead reaction should be, I thought it would be appropriate to offer
yet another point of view.

|In article <1992Nov17.214016.8674@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>
| GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet writes:
|
|        [tons of misinformation and homophobic diatribe, which I
|         won't dignify by responding to - followup in
|         alt.politics.homosexuality or somewhere if you feel it
|         necessary to start the inevitable flamewar]
Homophobic implies a phobia.  I assure you I have no fear of the 10% or so.
I have pondered the evolutionary aspects of homosexuality, and have come
to believe they are an important part of the mix.  It is not hard to see
areas in which homosexuals excel.  This may be due to lack of resource
drain in raising children, or just jumping off of our lemming like cultural
bandwagon earlier than most. Still an area of speculation.
|
|>        And please, my fellow Deadheads, don't go off on a holier than though
|>flame rampage.  In hundreds of BAY AREA shows, I have noticed that either
|>1. Gays don't go to shows ( WRONG )   or
|>2. They perceive the Deadhead crowd as being intolerant and unaccepting of
|>   their orientation.  So they go in stealth mode.
|>
|>        If you can't be as wierd as you really are at a SHOW, the paragon
|>of wierdness and acceptance, then where can you go ?
|>
|>Peace ( Someday ? )
|>Gladstone>

|Funny, in the 14 years that I've been going to shows in the Bay Area and
|elsewhere I've never once been hassled for being openly lesbian (and
|that includes some pretty unsubtle public displays of affection).
Physical affection between people of all sexes is not an unusual sight,
and is not percieved by the masses as sexual, rather as a celebration
of life.  Same sex lip kissing is a very rare sight.
|Dead shows are by far the most gay-tolerant mainstream concerts I've been to
|(except maybe for Melissa Etheridge shows :-)
Other responses disagree with the tolerance you describe.  See below.
|
|Gayfolk are there, and they're not all in stealth mode. Maybe you don't
|notice them if they don't fit your ridiculous stereotypes?
Ahh.. this got me thinking.  It seems that I have been immersed in a
particular substrata of the gay ( male ) population. ( The worst, low life
types, from a hetero perspective, and probably from a gay perspective. )
It seems that I have made incorrect extrapolations to the population
as a whole.
|
|One more thing - gay is an adjective, not a noun.
Not to pick nits, but as the Hackers Dictionary points out, we are moving
towards a purely positional grammer, like Chinese.  I feel on safe ground
using this word as a noun or an adjective.
|
|So, who's making up those pink-triangle stealie shirts? :-)
|
Jean, I seem to have angered you the most, so to you I hand the first olive
branch.  I see lesbians, of whom I have known many closely, as qualitativly
different from gay males.  I know of stable relationships going on two
decades, with some of them being our best and oldest of friends.
Given that a lot of males are 'pigs' or unsuited for forming a long term,
faithful, sensitive and tender relationship, I see the choice of many
lesbians as the logical alternative.  I guess my only beef is that you
demand equal access for yourselves, while denying it to others.
I must acknowledge your courage for being out of the closet, especially
on the net.

Fair thee well, let your life proceed by it's own design.
Nothing to tell, let the words be yours, I am done with mine.
Gladstone>
------------------------------

------------------------------

|From: dittrich@carson.u.washington.edu (Dave Dittrich)
|Subject: Re: WARNING ! FLAMEBAIT with minimal ODC Read at your own risk!
|Date: 18 Nov 92 01:08:58 GMT
|
|GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet writes:
|
|>        First, let me say I know how it feels to be discriminated
|>against for not being all of the following; ( you guess which )
|>White, Anglo Saxon, Protestant, Heterosexual.
|> ... [ stuff deleted ]
|>1. Gays don't go to shows ( WRONG )   or
|>2. They perceive the Deadhead crowd as being intolerant and unaccepting of
|>   their orientation.  So they go in stealth mode.
|
|I can't tell a gay by looking at one.  Can you?  Do they wear signs or
|something?  I see alot of men huggin men at Dead shows.
|Are they all gays? (no flames about "touch-heads").
I assume 2 motss hugging, particularly at the same show, are NOT gay.
If so, we would all be!
I have seen guys in flimsy Indian dresses, and made no assumptions, except
that it looked comfortable and colorful.
However, what I don't see, and would assume to be gay, would be 2 guys
lip kissing or walking arm in arm, holding hands, etc.
In these cases, yeah, I think I can tell a gay guy by looking.
Two women holding hands and skipping along the hallway during intermission,
I would not assume to be gay, because in our culture it is the norm for
females to be more physically affectionate.
This is because in our sick society, we put women on the mommey track and
men on the GI Joe track from early childhood.
|
|If your not a bigot, you shouldn't see anything but a human being,
|and there are plenty of those at Dead shows!
One can draw distinctions without being a bigot.  Hate and discrimination
are necessary for this.
|
|I've noticed that there are VERY FEW non-whites of any kind at Dead shows.
|I and my friends have wondered what the reason is for this.  I don't see
|Dead songs as being racially biased in any way, and the scene is extremely
|tolerant and non-racially biased.  Anyone have any opinions on this
|phenomenon?
Very good question.  The increasing number of blacks over the years seem to
know something hip when they see it.  Some blacks realize acid is a lot
more fun than crack, and rap sucks, and rap is usually bigoted and hateful.
Blacks are likely under peer pressure to 'act black' and stay away from
those goddamn white middle class hippie brats.
Young blacks don't as a rule listen to Motown or Miles Davis, etc, or even
Jimi Hendrix.  Very sad indeed.
        However, those blacks who have any exposure to the Rasta culture
are natural deadheads, and when you see a black at a show, he is likely
to be sporting dreadlocks.  Also, skateboarding seems to be a ticket
to a cross cultural ( racial ) experience.  More research needed.
Black females seem to be more scarce.   Alas...
|
|Maybe I'm just color blind, too. :-)
        Fraid not. Your perceptions seem accurate.
|
|"Ain't no time to hate."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|-From: dave5@bivalve.bellcore.com (Dave Ensign)
|Subject: Re: WARNING !   FLAMEBAIT with minimal ODC  Read at your own risk!
|Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:09:06 GMT
|
|ODC:  I'd love a "No Time To Hate" T-shirt.  Entrepreneurs, or non-profit
|orgs, are you listening?
|
|In article <1992Nov17.214016.8674@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>,
| GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet writes:
||>         And please, my fellow Deadheads, don't go off on a holier than thoug
   h
||> flame rampage.
|
|All right, as much as I want to I'll try to restrain myself.  But I have to
|say that I'm really sorry you felt it necessary to introduce this litany of
|stereotypes and misinformation onto r.m.g.
        As I realized above, my stereotypes are accurate perceptions, but
based on a small and very skewed percentage of the population.  This seems
to be the main point of learning for me.
|
|Oh, and you mentioned you work in a hospital.  I suggest you get some good
|information about how AIDS is spread.
I am as well informed as anybody about how you can get AIDS.  I read the
daily summary from the CDC in Atlanta, and the Bitnet AIDS discussion
group.  This is in addition to reading and discussion with other scientific
types.  Seminars are held here on communicable diseases, esp AIDS.
We are talking probabilities here.  The fact that that most people get AIDS
through one of a few common routes does mean it is not POSSIBLE to get it
by a very large number of other routes.  Lab workers have caught it by inhaling
water vapor with the virus in it.  These alternate routes are low
probability, but certainly not impossible.  This topic is being actively
debated, and if you want to get into it in detail, lets go email.
|Walking into a bar will not put you
|at risk no matter how many people inside the bar are infected with HIV.  You
|would need to exchange body fluids (particularly blood/semen) with the
|infected people.
Being attacked and getting into a fight certainly provides ample opportunity
for the exchange of blood.  If you have to punch somebody in the mouth,
they will bleed.  If they bite you,  TAG, you're it!  If you cut your fingers
on their teeth while punching and get blood in the cut, get tested.
BTW, I avoid fights with everyone.  I had my fill of thrills in Karate,
and prefer the way of the gentle warrior.
And in most of the bars in my town, they HATE straights, and will start
a ruckus.  I seldom drink, having acquired more enjoyable vices.  :-))
|?|> In hundreds of BAY AREA shows, I have noticed that either
||> 1. Gays don't go to shows ( WRONG )   or
||> 2. They perceive the Deadhead crowd as being intolerant and unaccepting of
||>    their orientation.  So they go in stealth mode.
?|>
|
|So, how do you think it feels to a gay person to wear his/her sexuality on
|his/her sleeve.  It's not easy.  I, for one, don't feel particularly
| comfortable
|with the idea of being out at a show.  I sure wish I could cuddle up with my SO
|during the mellower moments, but my impression is that it's an invitation
|for harrassment.  The dead community is not the diverse rainbow I would
|like it to be, anyway.  Maybe it depends on the venue.
Exactly the point I was trying to make, Dave.  Deadheads, get your own house
in order, before pointing the finger at me.  If you read one of the other
responses, they disagree with you and claim anything goes at a show.
Perhaps the scene is more tolerant of lesbians than gay males.
I am looking only at Bay shows.  God knows what you would face in the midwest
or in Frat city!
||>
||> Peace ( Someday ? )
||> Gladstone>
|
|Sure hope so,
|
|Dave
Let it all hang out.  Gimmie my space, and I will fight to defend yours.
|
?--
|(got to make myself a more interesting .sig)
|************************************************************************
|* David Ensign      Bell Communications Research  Piscataway, NJ       *
|* (908) 699-8168    dave5@bivalve.bellcore.com    bellcore!navaho!dave5*
|************************************************************************
|
|------------------------------
|From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella)
|Subject: Queer Heads was WARNING
|Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 13:03:11 GMT
|
|In article <1992Nov17.214016.8674@uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU>
| GLADSTONE@csmcmvax.bitnet writes:
|
|>I am some, but not others.  In America, we are unusual in that we are
|>trying to achieve a multi cultural, multi racial, multi ethnic,
|>multiply oriented and multiply valued culture.
|
|Sometimes I think we aren't trying, but since we're stuck with each
|other, it'll work out in time.
|
|>Most discrimination is totally without a rational basis.  There are,
|>however, some emotional, if not totally rational reasons why gays face
|discrimination.
|
|There are also emotional, if not totally rational, reasons dykes don't
|like hetboys in our hangouts.  I don't give in to them, and don't
|spend much time in wimmin-only space, but I understand why you get The
|Look when you barge into the only dyke bar in town or live in the
|queer ghetto.  When my husband and I go cruisin' the Castro, we get
|the look unless we stroll in open formation....  But what you
|experience in Hollywood -- being seen as Other because of your
|sexuality, is the common daily experience of being queer.  YOU can get
|on a bus and go to places where the majority of the folk are
|heterosexual, and get away.  Must be nice....
|
|You're not used to having queer people around who don't pretend to be
|het.  But over the next ten years, you'll get there.  Your kid will
|learn how to turn down a pass without using his fists.  And you'll
|learn how to recognize the gay social life of a dead show.

|I'm deleting most of what you say because I don't have time, and this
|isn't the place, to address it.  It saddens me that you blame for
|promiscuity a group you will not permit to marry, and it frightens me
|that you still think of AIDS as a gay disease.  But this is
|rec.music.gdead, not misc.flamewar.omigod.martha.the.fags.are.taking.over.
|
|<cut to the chase>
|
|>        It's very easy to live in suburbia and preach peace.  It's
|>not so easy on the front lines.
|
|I know that.  My friends get hit with tire-irons and baseball bats for
|loving.  I've stopped a fagbashing outside a dead show.  And the
|deadheads are one of my tribes.  (If you're a fat dyky looking woman,
|shrilling "Ooooh, are we proving our manhood by fagbashing?  Isn't
|that CUTE!" works REAL funny.)  But children being carried into shows
|today will have a better world to grow in.  Even if they ARE queer.
|
|>And gays must try to understand the difficulties that their non gay
|>counterparts have in coming to peaceful terms with them.  If not,
|>Colorado will be the first, not the last.
|
|Colorado is not the first, not in any real sense.  Alan Turing was
|forced to take female hormones to turn off his balls because he was
|queer.  He killed himself, soon after.  Colorado is not the first
|government to institutionalize bashing.  But in a sense, AIDS has
|freed queerfolk to insist on our freedom to marry, to be out, because
|if we're patient, and quiet, and conciliatory, the disease will keep
|on doubling as kids who think "I don't need rubbers 'cause I'm not
|queer" keep on sharing viruses.
|
|I saw a deadhead mom who had run out of money hand her hungry baby to
|a woman she did not know, and not worry for a minute about HIV.  That
|scared me so bad I walked away crying.
You shoulda given her some food or money, rather than your tears.
Caring is good, but sharing is better.  You sound like a woman of
substance.  Nobody goes hungry around me.
|
|I see a lot more needles than I do bleach outside shows.
|
|And by the time most of the queers are dead, your kids will be waking
|up wet and scared, with the taste of thrush in their mouths, afraid to
|tell you they're HIV+.  We must love one another or die.
|
|>        When I look in my heart, I don't see hate. We all need to live
|>in peace, and that is going to take work and understanding on both sides
|>of the sexual fence.
|
|So mote it be!
|
|>        And please, my fellow Deadheads, don't go off on a holier than though
|>flame rampage.  In hundreds of BAY AREA shows, I have noticed that either
|>1. Gays don't go to shows ( WRONG )   or
|>2. They perceive the Deadhead crowd as being intolerant and unaccepting of
|>   their orientation.  So they go in stealth mode.
|
|Um, are we living in the same reality-tunnel?  When I go to bay area
|shows, I see out, proud leatherbykes, femmes of all genders in
|twirler-shirts, clones, magyck-hyppye-dykes....  Stealth mode?  Not
|that I've noticed!  Sure there are 'phobic drunkies in the parking
|lot, but the fools are always with us, but I just don't see the same
|scene you do.
|
|>        If you can't be as wierd as you really are at a SHOW, the paragon
|>of wierdness and acceptance, then where can you go ?
|
|I've never had that problem.  But what the hell, I wear my whip to the
|grocery store now and then....
|
|>Peace ( Someday ? )
|
|Not good enough, I'm afraid.
|
|Peace _NOW_, ok?
|
|Give me what I want, exactly when I want it, forever, now, once upon a
|time!
|
|We must love one another or die.
|
|STella@xanadu.com       1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087
|aka stella@glg.ucs.dec.com -- ping there if you can't find thelema
|Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!
|
|------------------------------
ALWAYS a pleasure to hear from another Libertarian.
STella, your response was far and away the most informative and tolerant.
It showed a Grate sense of humor and understanding.  I enjoyed it, and
thank you for taking the time to reply.  I would find you a very fascinating
person to discuss a number of topics with.

  You make 3 assumptions about my beliefs that are reasonable inferences,
  but incorrect.
1. Any gay people wishing to formalize and sanctify their relationship
   is a wonderful idea, both from a human standpoint and from the
   standpoint of slowing the epidemic.  Especially for males, this would
   decrease the dangerous behaviour of the Maplethorpe era.
2. Not every gay person who has responded has found the gd scene as tolerant
   as you describe.  Posts in years past have described the percieved
   homophobic intolerant athmosphere of the Dead scene.
3. I know only too well that AIDS is not only a gay disease.  My point
   was that it may never have reached critical mass had it not been for
   rampant promiscuity.  This is a topic of debate among epidemiologists.
   I was stating my considered opinion, because nobody has the scientific
   facts on this one.  A more detailed discussion would have to go email,
   and I doubt we could ever muster enough facts to reach an agreement.

I would not tolerate physical gay bashing on my watch, and do not hang out
with those who do such things.  However, in my town, there are plenty of
gay people who are into random retaliation.

Thanx again, and as for me, enuf said.  net.discussion is OVER
Gladstone>  <GLADSTONE@CSMCMVAX.BITNET>

Newsgroups: rec.music.gdead