HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tsait@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Theodore Leonard Tsai)
Subject: Re: The Best First-base Player in !993
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:59:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.191012.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> jlevy@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>In article <C0M6pC.IIp@news.iastate.edu>, vbdiep@iastate.edu (Vinh Diep) writes:
>> 	While many of you are arguing about Will Clark and Frank Thomas, and 
>> one is better than the other, one player that some of you seem to ignore will
>> surprise baseball fans in 1993. That All-Star first-baseman is DON MATTINGLY.
>
>
>okay, I'm a big time Yankee fan and all, and I think they made some really
>great moves this winter (especially the abbott deal), but why would Don
>mattingly all of a sudden turn it all around and come back? he's had three
>straight mediorce (or worse) years, with his advanceing age and bad back, why
>would he be the player that you pick to suddenly remember how to hit the ball.
>maybe if you said wade Boggs (i now you were talking about a first baseman
>here, but you see my point). Which brings up the question: why is Don mattingly
>still treated like a star in the toughest sports town of all?
>why aren't all those callers on the talk shows yelling about how Mattingly's
>bat is killing us (certainly an exaggeration) etc. etc.?
>the only answer I can come up with is ugly but probably true.
>Donny is a white boy.
>kind of a sad story, really.
>

Hmm. Unfortunately, you're probably right.  But, that didn't hold true
for when Righetti was blowing save after save.  People were getting all 
over his case back then.  I always figured that it was because he's the 
only genuine all star (ok, WAS) that was brought up through the
farm system (Mattingly, that is), and it's hard to let that go.  Geez,
when's the last time the Yanks have had really great home grown talent
that they've drafted themselves (and I mean all star caliber)?  Thurman
Munson springs to my mind.  Ron Guidry.  Uh... umm...  That's it.
ANd Don's been hurt so often the past few years that it's easy to
say "Well, once his back gets better, he'll get going again."
I'm a Yankee and Mattingly fan, but I have to say that he's hurt the Yankee
future quite a bit.  Because he was installed at 1st, Hal Morris
was traded away for *gag* Leary.  JT Snow is gone now (for Abott--
well, ok, that's more like it).  


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: fierkelab@bchm.biochem.duke.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Get a Helmet, Khanh!
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:52:52 GMT
Organization: Biochemistry

>In article <9301082157.AA27017@pserv.CFSMO.Honeywell.COM> Khanh Nguyen
<khanh@cfsmo.honeywell.com> writes:
>
>
>>I finally stooped so low as to watch a baseball game the other day.  It was
>>a tape of the "World" Series!  What a joke!  I can't believe you people.  I
>>have seen some half-assed sports in my day, but baseball has got to take
>>the cake.  I mean, really, a bunch of fat, old men running around in kid's
>>outfits, scratching themselves, and spitting on national television.  
>
>>Oh, and God forbid they should have to run across the field and damn near
>>have a heartattack.  Please!
>
>>And what do these slobs get paid?  $50,000,000 per second!  For what?
>
>>Have you seen a modern table tennis tourney lately?  Real action!  Mano a
>>mano battle for supremacy on the board.  Each one grabbing his paddle
>>instead of his crotch.
>
>>Pardon my saying so, but the only thing lamer than baseball is what you
>>call "football."
>
>>No flames necessary-- although I'm not sure you knobheads could scrape up
>>enough intelligence between you to come up with a good one.  Anyway, I'm
>>sure you're all REALLY offended.  Offended-- that's a big person word for
>>when you don't like something that someone said.  
>
>>So, don't bother.
>
>>Khanh
>
OK, here's one for you...

Now, which one would you prefer to do?

First, try hitting a 90 mph ping-pong ball with a baseball bat.
2nd, try hitting a 90 mph baseball with a ping-pong paddle.


No contest.  Especially if you let me blindfold the server/pitcher!  (Or, I
could simply put Bill Bene on the mound.)

I'd say that Khanh could stand to wear a batting helmet when playing ping-pong.

Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley


Eric Roush			Deck us all with Boston Charlie
fierkelab@			Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo!
bchm.biochem.duke.edu	Nora's freezin' on the Trolley,
				Swaller Dollar Cauliflower Alla-ga-Roo!

				Walt Kelley
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jle@world.std.com (Joe M Leonard)
Subject: Re: Statistical analysis vs. wins
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:30:20 GMT

The correlation coefficients were obtained by typing in the 14-team
data and running an analysis against the lot.  The result was a matrix
of numbers of X vs. Y, which is a simple measure of what happens to Y
when X is changed.  1.000 means they're in lockstep, and 0.000 means
there's not even a smidgen of dependence.  The individual numbers cannot
be added in any simple fashion.

As there was no input in the calculations (other than the typing :-)
the results are from the statistics package.  Remember, Bill James
said that sportscasters had an idea, and sought facts to prove it.
He, on the other hand, analysed the data to see what relationships
were there.  This is a REALLY SMALL SAMPLE, but a larger version
(which might be in some of the baseball books from James, Palmer, et al)
would be much more definitive.

I'll follow it up with regression models, but since they are terms
that are chosen by the operator they (a) can reflect by biases and
(b) can also reflect what intuition expects.

Joe Leonard
jle@world.std.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:54:06 GMT

All right, All right, I concede.
Ceceil Fielder is not all that great a player, and whether he is or is not
it was certainly foolish for the Tigers to sign him for so long.
When I made the comment about having him on the Mets, I must have been thinking
about his excitement value and not his actual baseball value (Lord knows the 
Mets could use some excitement this year.  Maybe Ryan Thompson :) ).
I retract.
-Jonathan Katz
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Reply-To: tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:47:50 GMT


> In article <1993Jan7.224639.26163@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu
(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
> > In article <1993Jan7.221131.17994@cs.wayne.edu> dfl@math.wayne.edu (David
Frohardt-Lane) writes:
> > 
> > Bonds...
> > 1) is younger, by about two years and thirty pounds.
> > 2) is a Real Baserunner.
> > 3) plays outstanding defense.
> > 4) has been a better slugger each of the last two years (fewer HR,
> >    but more 1B, 2B, and 3B)
> > 5) Runs a *very* good batting average.
> > 6) Walks 100 times a year.
> > 7) Has played on a winning team.
> > 
> > 
> > -Valentine
> 
> You guys get so bogged down in your stats and comparisons, that you
> forget what the Detroit owner really wants to do - get people to
> the park and make money.  Fielder is as big (no pun intended) in
> Detroit as other superstars are in other towns.  When the town loses
> the superstars, they tend not to support the team until they either
> get a new superstar or start winning.  
> 
> Rich Barry
> barry@ihlpe.att.com

Gee, Rich, ya got any STATS on how many fans Cecil brings to the ballpark?
I'll bet they're mostly big eaters, too, providing a bigger concession take,
unlike those scrawny Barry Bonds fans.  I'd like to see a COMPARISON...;-}

In truth, you're probably right, though.  I can't imagine that Milt Cuyler 
would pack 'em in the park.

-Tom
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Date: 8 Jan 93 13:25:33 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

lbarnes@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Laura L. Barnes) writes:

well, laura, i can't see ANYTHING that garvey did that was better than
 reggie, and i'm not kidding.  garvey wouldn't take a walk if all the
 cars in los angeles broke down, and had substantially less power than reggie.
 his batting average was marginally better (15 points?  i don't know, i 
 don't have stats in front of me, but i know reggie had a higher
 on base percentage.  reggie did it for a longer period of time, 
 played a more demanding position in the field BETTER (garvey's
 fielding percentage obscures the fact that he wouldn't move
 three steps to his right for a ball), stole more bases.  he had
 more strikeouts, too, but that really doesn't matter much...

>MArtin, and hit home runs in the post-season?  (I'm not a big fan of 
>Reggie's!)  Garvey, on the other hand, was a dangerous clutch hitter ALL 
>SEASON and reasonably good first baseman.  I plead ignorance on Reggie's 
i like how you said "dangerous clutch hitter all year long" - it brings home
 the point that it's important to do it all year long..rather than JUST
 september....but reggie, to the best of my knowlege, had more rbi's
 per game than garvey.  

>Anyway, I think Niekro deserved to be elected because he won 318 games AND 
i think winning 318 games for a bad team is sufficient; # of games won
 does NOT even itself out among team-mates, but it has a better chance
 of evening out over  a 20 year career...

- bob gaj
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Darrell Evans
Date: 12 Jan 1993 20:30:32 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
NNTP-Posting-Host: g215a-1.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1993Jan11.213407.16389@midway.uchicago.edu>  
thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

> Evans stopped being a third baseman fairly early -- by 1984, he was
> only there for about 20 games or so.

In 1984 he turned 37 and was playing his 16th season.
I wouldn't call that an early exit.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Go Brewers! Up, please.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Subject: Re: rule-question
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:40:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.203257.43919@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, gaf5@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Gail A. Fullman) writes:
|> In article <1i9719INN6i2@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, frodo@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de
|>  (Frank Wagner) writes:
|> >1) Why no infield-fly is called, if there is a runner on 1st only ?

  Because there is no artificial double-play possibility by the defense 
intentionally letting the ball drop and throwing out the runners who were holding
on at their respective bases expecting the ball to be caught. 

  However, if Rickey Henderson is at first base and Mark McGwire hits an infield
pop fly with less than 2 outs, the infield fly is NOT called! So - it seems 
possible for the infielder to let the ball drop and throw out Henderson at
second base - thereby 'trading' the dangerous runner Henderson for McGwire. How
come you never see this play in baseball? I think the umps would say this ploy
is illegal via other rules - like the 'mockery of the game' clause. 

|> >
|> I think the rule is:  umpire calls infield fly rule in effect, batter is out.
|> This applies if there is less than two out and first or first and second bases
|> are occupied.

  Nope. The infield-fly is not called if there is runner at first and none on
second. There has to be less than 2 outs, and runners on first and second. There
may also be a runner on third.


|> >2) If a fly ball is caught in foul-territory, is it dead or may the
|> >   runners tag up and try to reach the next base ?
|> >
|>    Runners may tag and advance at their own risk.  Ball is not dead.

  You got this one correct!!

-Ron


|> -- 
|> 
|> ------------------------
|> |   Gail A. Fullman    |
|> |   Manager - ADMO     |
|> |   Ext. 83113         |
|> ------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: defensive measures of performance (was -- Re: Lists: The Best Players In Baseeball)
Keywords: RF, DA, ???
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 20:01:43 GMT

In <1993Jan9.045925.1028@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:

>In article <steph.726550888@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
[...]
>>
>>Well, yes.  But my problem with RBI totals aren't that they are *evil* (see
>>definition above), but that there are better tools available.  Why use RBI
>>totals when OBP and SLG are in every McWeekly?

>i can't stand it anymore...
>why exactly does everyone call it "Mc" Weekly?
>does McDonald's own it or something?

Presumably because it's published by McPaper, USA Today.  (Why McPaper?  The
first homogenized, nationwide newspaper -- the McDonalds of the newspaper
business).
-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:44:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.170351.19614@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
)In article <1993Jan5.125130.24556@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
)>aaron:
)>)>Wyche did not try to unilaterally ban women reporters from the locker
)>)>room, but attempted to secure the privacy of his players while they
)>)>were bathing and void of clothing.
)>
)>That looks pretty clear to me.  I can't prove that aaron is *right*, but that
)>was also my impression of the state of affairs.
)
)Pretty clear about what?  This statement doesn't address the issue: did
)Wyche treat women reporters differently than men reporters?  The statement
)by Aaron that was included in my post indicated that he did.  *That's* what
)got Wyche in hot water.

I finally found my files on the topic, such as they are, and it looks like
you were probably right.  (I don't have any direct quotes from the press
such as was posted by Tang, though).

It was apparently an earlier incident where Wyche banned all reporters from
the locker room 'after a loss to Seattle' that I was thinking of.  He was
fined for that too.  (As well as punching a reporter in the face, once).

I would agree that reporters deserve an equal access regardless of sex,
but I don't think that access to the locker rooms should be a mandated
right of reporters as is (was?) apparently the case.
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Get a life baseball fans... Try ping-pong!
Date: 9 Jan 93 06:58:06 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <9301082157.AA27017@pserv.CFSMO.Honeywell.COM> khanh@cfsmo.honeywell.com (Khanh Nguyen) writes:
...

Hmm.  Terminal left unattended?

-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sjw_nc@engin.umich.edu (Scott J Wilderman)
Subject: Re: Can a Good Glove make up for a Dead Bat? (and vice versa)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 13:30:14 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1993Jan7.234914.25166@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker) writes:
>
>About those Brewers. They went from roughly league average (actually
>slightly below average) in 1991, and changed three positions:
>
> [some stuff deleted about changes in the Brewer line-up]
>
>That is 43 runs of improvement in the field. The teams improvement in
>runs allowed was 140. Of that 140, 24 can be attributed to the league
>average going down. 43 is my estimate for fielding (and since I think
>Listach was about +10, a conservative estimate.) The park factor
>changed from 1.043 to .903; thats a difference of 100. I think extreme
>park factors are flukes, so I will cut the difference in half and call
>it 50. So, that is 24+43+50=117, which only leaves 23 runs of
>improvement for the pitchers.
>

I'm somewhat confused by the dramatic influence of the 'park factor' 
effect in this analysis.  Am I to assume that something about County
Stadium was changed from 1991 to 1992 which was responsible for 50 
fewer runs (actually, 100 by your own numerical anaylsis) being scored 
by the Brewers' opponents than in the previous year?  What was it?
I don't believe it was structural (although I could be mistaken), and 
the only other possibilities I can think of are that perhaps unusual 
weather in Milwaukee in 1992 (can any locals please confirm or refute 
this?) was particularly preclusive to high scoring in 1992 vs 1991, or 
that the style of play in the American League changed drastically, 
making Milwaukee a difficult place to score.  Can anyone else suggest
other explanations?

If not, then I would suggest that your 'park factor' model is faulty - 
at least it's inadequate for describing County Stadium in 1991 and 1992.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:10:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.164050.27334@athena.mit.edu> frisch1@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan Katz) writes:
>I don't understand you guys.  Fielder is one of the five best first basemen in
>the league right now. 

If you ignore the ones who are better than him, sure.  (Not to mention
that when there are only 14 teams in the league, this isn't really that
impressive.  It only means he's in the top 1/3rd.)

McGwire and Thomas, Palmeiro and Olerud are better
Sorrento and Hrbek are about equal
Milligan was probably worse, but not by much.

>		       His avergae last year was an aberration. And besides, his
>average wasnt _that bad_ considering how many homeruns he hit.  He's been an

It's not simply his average -- it's his lack of on-base ability, his lack 
of power, and his declining trend.

1990-- 277/377/592
1991-- 261/347/513
1992-- 244/325/458

Gee, if he loses 25 points off his OBP and 60 points off his SLG again,
he'd be Franklin Stubbs.  

His hitting a lot of home runs mostly obscures how few *other*
extra-base hits he gets.

>all-star the past three years, too (a starter a couple of times also, if I am
>correct).  That clearly makes him beter than 'marginally above average'.

No, him being an all-star makes him "popular," and/or "overrated."  It
doesn't make him better or worse or anything else.

>Besides, and this will probably get a lot of flaming, I think that had he not
>missed time in Japan, he would now be on the way to a HOF career.

Remember, the reason he *went* to Japan was because he couldn't get
playing time.  If he had stayed in the US, he wouldn't have had a career
at all, most likely.

Now, he missed a grand total of *1* year (1989) in Japan.  That one year
wasn't going to give him a HOF career, unless he hit 80 HRs in the US or
something.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | "We don't need anymore [sic] wretched refuse.  It's 
niepornt@phoenix.    |  time to send the Statue of Liberty somewhere else"
   princeton.edu     |      -- Jack "Not a bigot" Schmidling, 1/7/93
Baltimore Orioles 93 |
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim)
Subject: Re: Cal Abrams afloat
Keywords: Dodgers
Organization: Fordham University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:38:00 GMT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Distribution: usa
X-Posted-From: mary.fordham.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <C0CK6A.IG3@bunker.shel.isc-br.com>, 
jerry@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com (Gerald Lanza) writes...
>In article <4JAN199311402779@mary.fordham.edu> nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim) writes:
[some deleted]
>|Cal Abrams was on board as part of their "Sports Afloat" program.  (For 
>|younger fans who don't read baseball history, he was an outfielder for the 
>|Brooklyn Dodgers from 1949 to 1952; although never a regular all season, 
>|he was part of some exciting pennant races in those years.  He later played
>|for other teams.) 
>|
>	Did you ask Cal Abrams about his part in the final game of the 1950
>season when he was thrown out at the plate on a base hit in the ninth inning 
>attempting to score the winning run ? The Dodgers lost in extra innings on 
>Dick Sisler's homerun giving the Whiz Kids the pennant by a one game margin.
> 
>	Old Dodger fans whince when his name is brought up. Does anyone have
>further background on this infamous incident in Brooklyn Dodger history and/or
>corrections to my rememberance of this incident ?
> 
> 
>					jerry

I was polite enough not to ask about that 154th game of 1950; when someone else 
asked, he just shrugged and remembered that the third base coach who sent him 
home was fired.  (He didn't name him, but I seem to recall it was Clyde 
Sukeford (sp?).  ) 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leonard Nissim, notorious Dodger fanatic     (nissim@mary.fordham.edu)  
Disclaimer:  "I speak only for myself."   
World Championships:  Brooklyn-----1955   
                      Los Angeles--1959  1963  1965  1981  1988
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men