From: oueichek@gram (Ibaa Oueichek)
Subject: Re: Religious bickering and nonsense
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 10:11:44 GMT

Hamaza H. Salah (cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: 
: 
: oueichek@gram (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
: 
: 
: >     Dear sir, I've already (along with John, who is an Arab despite what his
: >name may reflect) contributed to a long discussion about Arabic music
: >on this group. 
: 
: All we need to discuss is Arabic rock 'n roll on the net while people 
: are getting killed in Palestine and Iraq.  Way to Arabic Culture.
  Arabis music is NOT "rock 'n roll". It's one of the most noble arts in the
 world. Being interested in our culture and heritage is by no way an appeal
 to forget the suffering of our people in Palestine, Iraq, and all the Arabic
 world. I'm trying to say that Arabs have deep (maybe the deepest) roots in 
 civilization, that we are not inferior to other people. That despite all
 the tough moments we passed through we are still able to think, look around
 us, and analyze before taking a decision. Is it a treason to say that my people
 are much less stupid than propaganda tries to portray them ?.
: 
: >And let me tell you that it was a great deception for
: >me to see the thread dying because NOONE contributed to it. 
: 
: I think you know why now.  No body is in the mood lady.
   No, i still don't understand why, kiddy. 
: 
: >Excuse-me, but i think Arabic music is much more interesting than a 
: >discussion in the style "my G-D is better than yours". 
: 
: I really like the childish phrase of yours "my G-D is better than yours".
  Isn't it true ?. Aren't YOU and several other guys doing your best, spending
  an incredible amount of time on telling us how WE are "Mushriks". Tell me,
  what will you win if you convince everyone that we are unbelievers ?.
  Did G-d promise you a special compensation if you bring him some heads ?.
  You are trying to creat resentment where it doesn't exist, i didn't try to
  provoke you and tell you you were an infidel, YOU DID. Let us accept for the
  sake of the argument that i'm a "mushrik", does that make me inferior ?. Does
  it make me your enemy ?. Why you insist on being hostile to us while even
  your prophet wasn't ?.
: 
: >I'm not more "cultivated" than many other readers of this group and i know 
: >they have a plenty of interesting subjects other than sectarian discussions. 
: 
: Like what? The future of Rock'n Roll in the Arabic world.
  Well, like what will be the future of the Arabic world if we become all 
obcessed with violence and war. Like trying to discover ourselves and who
we are and what we are willing to become. Tell me Hamza, do you really believe
that art is "garbage" ?. Is the only thing which counts in a human for you is
his religion ?. Can't you imagine a relation between you and a non-Muslim based
on mutual respect and equality, not on submission and domination ?. If you can't
then i'm sorry for you, and i hope you open your eyes and look around you a
little bit.
: 
: >But they are always intimidated by some activists here, and time has come
: >to stop this intimidation.
: 
: Like me and Aziz.  Or just me alone.
  You are one of them. Aziz is on my side, so i won't criticize him :-). Isn't
that the kind of answers you wish to have ?, after all Aziz and i are both
Syrian Christians, so we should agree 100%, no ?.
: 
: >     What will someone who wants to learn about Arabs and their culture discover
: >when he reads this group ?. Can't you understand that i dislike (not to
: >say hate) this group because it consacrates the sterotype propagated about
: >Arabs and Muslims everywhere in the world ?. We are playing the idiots and
: >people are watching, then we go and tell them they "don't know us". Isn't
: >it due (at least partially) to our commitement not to respect ourselves ?.
: 
: >:   
: >:    Nevertheless, i ll be gratfull if Carasso and some others (commonly
: >:    called Beni aami !) go to s.c.j or a.t.m and see if i am there.
: 
: >     At least something on which we agree, but if Carasso and the "Beni aami"
: >wish to speak about our culture then they are welcome. If all what they have
: >is insults then "qu'ils aillent se faire foutre", and that concerns everyone.
: >(OOOPs, sorry, i should have exculded Carasso from my "if", he's definitly
: >not welcome).
: 
: Why not he is not welcome?  I think you've been insulting him
: as much as the "O Wise Man."  Is the "O Wise Man" excluded too?
   Hamza, i didn't insult you, i said you were insulting yourself and 
   discrediting your cause, OUR cause. However, i hope you'll understand that i
   by no way consider you to be the same kind of people than carasso (you are 
   new to this group, i know him and i know his trick and how he provokes people
   and put news-bobms in his articles, someone who posts articles to 
   alt.sex.bestiality about Arabs having sex with camels is definitly NOT 
   welcome here).
: 
: >     Hmmm, that thread "Islamic or Arabic" civilization smells powder, but i am
: >     prowd of it, being it Islamic or not. But this wasn't my point. Please
: >     find me ONE interesting religious thread among those which are actively
: >     driven at this group.
: 
: How about Ozir and jews?
  Oh sure, sure. Really insteresting how you are telling people that they ignore
  their belief. I think Shaul needs a special place in the paradise (the only
  jew allowed there, after all WE also consider them to be unbelievers :-)) for
  being that patient with you.
: 
: >     Maybe interesting for me means a way for us to
: >     understand each other, maybe you have another definiton of interesting.
: >     But i think that all the religious nonsens which has circulated on this
: >     group lately can hardly be described as constructive, rather deaf dialog.
: 
: That is your view.  Forget about religion. It is not part of sca, and it
: is not part of the arab world, it is not part of social life, it is not,
: it is not, etc.  All arab muslims must understand if they talk about
: islam, they will insult some few arab christians that will be very 
: offended.  Instead, we all should talk about transfering Rock'n Roll and 
: Boogie Boogie Disco music to the arab world.  
   I didn't say that. If someone wants to tell us about what the Muslims 
   contributed to world civilization the he's the most welcome. There's a
   group wide open to discuss "fiqh" matter, and the articles there are of
   an excellent quality. But holy war and religious slander are not welcome.
   I think you really miss my point, i'm NOT offended when someone speaks about
   Islam. I'm offended when someone consacrates his time to tell me that i'm
   an unbeliever and a potential enemy despite that i've never harmed him and 
   that i'm much more sympathetic towards Muslims than most of those who are
   supposed to share my faith. Got the point ?. I've been
: 
: Two days ago, when Baghdad, the capital of Harwn El-Rashid, was hit
: by 48 Cruise missles and people were shouting "Allaho Akbar" and someone
: shouted "O muslims come come", tell all of us we should focus our attention
: into some more garabage like secularism and music.  What a shame?
   Hamza, the real shame is what you are telling here. I never said we should
forget (not for a single minute) what is happning to our people, not even
that we should try to grasp it. The only reason i'm not shouting "screw the
colonialists" (and i'm much more patriotic than what you think) is i don't 
think it may help anyone.
: 
: >:    at last i just want to observe that Ibaa seems to prefer Aziz to
: >:    Hamza !! mais pourquoi ? 
: 
: >     What's your point ?. Or is it just an(other) ad hominem attack?.
: 
: I would like to quote you some of the "O Christian Man" reply, so you
: can come up to the answer.  The "O Christian Man" writes:
: 
: "Similarly Christians and Non-Muslims will bind 
: together and uphold such a view."
  Hmmm, i wish the "O Christian Man" and the "O Wis Man" stop wasting their
  and our time on bashing each other. What really bugs me is why Aziz, who
  obviously has more interesting things to say than participating in this
  deaf dialog , insists on having the last word.
: 
: 
: ibaa, btw, the "O Wis Man" holiday is over..					
  Good, maybe the "O Wis Man" can concentrate on his studies, maybe once a
  day he will become a real wise man. And i'll be proud of him and shake hands
  of him and consider him to be my brother and my freind, even if he doesn't
  share my faith. And maybe then, and only then, we'll really deserve to win
  our battle and get rid of the humiliation, because we'll be unified.

  May G-d forgive you for your bad thoughts about my intentions.
  Ibaa
: 
--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | IMAG, INPG.
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
					

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic