From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not Christians
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:14:14 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1992Oct1.121630.13063@phillip.edu.au> lbarrass@phillip.edu.au writes:

>1. Before examining LDS theology, I feel that it is important to define 
>orthodox Christian beliefs that would be considered the "Fundamentals" of the
>faith, and not those doctrines unnecesary to salvation. The list that follows
>is terse and is not supposed to be a theological treatise.
>
>        a) There is only one God, who created the heavens and the earth.  
>        b) Jesus is God incarnate, born of the virgin Mary. In saying that Mary
>           was a virgin, I mean that she had never had sexual relations with a 
>           man or (as LDS theology says) with God. Jesus being God incarnate 
>           means that Jesus is God.
>        c) God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Separate but indiv-
>           sible, otherwise known as the Trinity. This is important in recog-
>           nising who Jesus is. To reject Jesus as God is to reject God.

So you are saying that anyone who rejects the virgin birth, for example,
rejects God and therefore, despite any other profession of
faith in Jesus (even as God) and throwing one's self on His mercy,
is invalid, and that person is not a Christian?


>        d) A Christian is somebody who: 
>           - accepts that they are in a sinful state and are separated from
>             God because of sin.
>           - believes that Jesus was crucified, buried and raised from the
>             dead thus breaking the law of sin and death.
>           - believes that the only forgiveness for sin is through the blood
>             shed upon the cross. That forgiveness is complete for those who 
>             have accepted the free gift of grace from God.
>           - believes we are save by grace through faith, and not by works. No 
>             person can do anything in their own right to rid themselves of  
>             the burden of sin. Being baptised, joining a group or following
>             certain laws cannot save a person.
>           - believes that when a person accepts Jesus as Lord, the Holy
>             Spirit (who is God) dwells within them.

I know quite a few Mormons who would agree with this, although they
don't use the protestant rhetoric.  This really isn't objectionable,
although it isn't the emphasis I would use.  I would also remind you of
the moral walk that Jesus emphasized as being critical
to religion.  I recognize Paul downplayed that side of it somewhat.
I think that Jesus would be a bit upset with so many Christians
of today thinking of religion almost totally in terms of their
own personal salvation and forgetting too often their
Christian duties vis-a-vis their neighbor.

>           - has given their life "lock, stock and barrel" to Jesus!


I truly doubt that there are many Christians then.  I don't know
anyone that has really done this, though many may say they have.









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Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
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