HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peeters@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (bert peeters)
Subject: What did David Pesetsky really say?
Keywords: cognitive linguistics / generative linguistics
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:32:16 GMT

I think it was towards the end of August this year, but I may be wrong. The
BB was discussing (amongst other things) about cognitive and generative
linguistics, and David Pesetsky was one of the most prominent participants.
At one stage, he referred to Chomsky's new minimalist paper and conceded
(at least as far as I recall) it was a move towards the cognitive direction,
with however Langacker (and his content requirement) having clear temporal
precedence. Now, did anyone save this particular bit and if so could that
person repost it or send a copy to me personally? I referred to this post
on another list and got a message from David Pesetsky saying that he surely
didn't say what I make him say or else that if he did he was asleep... I'd
like to find out what he really said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Bert Peeters                         Tel: +61 02 202344
Department of Modern Languages               002 202344
University of Tasmania at Hobart        Fax: 002 207813
GPO Box 252C                            Bert.Peeters@modlang.utas.edu.au
Hobart TAS 7001
Australia
From: psheil@bpecomm.pinetree.org (Pearl Sheil)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: audible movement
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 21:12:18 EST
Organization: BP ECOMM Systems, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

This is to anyone who can enlighten me on what I have run across in
readings.  D. Abercrombie and a couple others assume an understanding of
this a gestural origin of vocalizations. Is this like the 50's(?) theory
of speech evolution from cave men's involuntary grunts or an auditory
miming of a beckoning motion?  Was this theory ever widely accepted?  Is
it still? Thanks in advance.

--
Internet : psheil@bpecomm.pinetree.org (Pearl Sheil)
    UUCP : ...!pinetree!bpecomm!psheil
BP ECOMM Systems, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Newsgroups: sci.lang,sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy,talk.philosophy.misc
From: epstein@cs.uiuc.edu (Milt Epstein)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.philosophy.language (REPOST)
Keywords: philosophy of language, new group, newgroup, POL
Reply-To: epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:53:47 GMT

In <1992Nov14.114224.2532@samba.oit.unc.edu> Rick.Horowitz@launchpad.unc.edu (Rick Horowitz) writes:

>Anyway, I want to respond to some of the discussion coming up about
>my recommendation for a group called sci.philosophy.language.
> 
>1)      Some people have said things like: "I too would be interested
>        such a group.  I'm particularly interested in 'psychological
>        and computational aspects of language'."  What I don't
>        understand is: Why wouldn't these things belong under
>        sci.lang, comp.ai.philosophy, or even sci.philosophy.tech?
>        Certainly there might be ways of talking about these that
>        belong in sci.philosophy.language, but my reading of the
>        comments indicates to me that the way the post was intended,
>        it's something less philosophical that they were interested
>        in.  (But maybe I'm wrong; I often am.)

I've just noticed this thread, and I thought I'd add my $.02 in.  And
I'm going to echo the comments you're responding to here -- I'm one of
those primarily interested in psychological and computational aspects
of language.  While it's arguable that these topics fall under those
covered by the newsgroups you mention, there typically isn't much
discussion of them there (in fact, one of your given reasons for
wanting to have sci.phil.lang is to create a forum to discuss the
types of issues you're interested in -- even though it could be argued
that they also fit into the existing newsgroups).

One possibility is a reorganization (or creation, rather) of a
sci.lang.* hierarchy, something including things like:

     sci.lang.philosophy
     sci.lang.comp
     sci.lang.psychology  (perhaps these latter two should be combined somehow)
     ...

(I'm not really sure what the implications of having
sci.lang.philosophy instead of sci.philosophy.lang are.)

Now I realize that proposals to reorganize sci.lang have come up every
now and then, and never get anywhere, so the same will probably happen
to this one.  Mainly my point is that consideration should be given to
having a separate forum for psychological and computational apects of
language (i.e. separate from what exists now, and separate from the
proposed POL group).

-- 
Milt Epstein
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois
epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: ahalpern@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Aaron L Halpern)
Subject: workshop announcement: second position clitics
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:41:52 GMT

FIRST CALL FOR PAPERS: 
Workshop on Second Position Clitics
July 10, 11 1993.  The Ohio State University

A workshop on second position clitics will be held on Saturday July 10th
(and possibly Sunday the 11th) as a supplementary event to the Linguistic
Institute held in Columbus, Ohio.  The organizers (Arnold Zwicky and Aaron
Halpern) are soliciting papers that combine a theoretical approach to some
aspect of second position with a relatively detailed description of a
language.

The proposed format of the workshop is to have around ten papers, 30
minutes in length, with 10 minutes for discussion.  It is expected that
the papers will be collected into a volume; written responses by workshop
participants will be invited (and published along with the main papers).

If you want to take part in this workshop, send a version of your
proposed paper (suitable for presentation within half an hour), or an
extended abstract, to the organizers at the address below.  Submissions
should reflect a knowledge of previous work on (second position) clitics.

DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS: March 20, 1993

Some topics of interest to theoretical linguistics are given below.  (This
list is not intended to be exhaustive, just indicative.)

  - The nature of the principles or mechanisms for ensuring that
    material is located in second position (syntactic, prosodic,
    morphological)
  - Accounts of the variation from language to language as to what
    counts as second position (e.g., after the first word, after the
    first syntactic constituent) and how the variants are related
  - Why particular constructions don't allow clitics after the first word of
    a clause in a language in which this position is otherwise available
  - Fronted phrases, and whether they count as first or are skipped
  - Comparisons of 2P clitics with different functions (pronominal, 
    (auxiliary) verb, adverbial/particle)
  - Relationships between 2P and V2 (second position clitics and
    verb-second constructions)S
  - Relationships between second position clitics and head-located clitics
    (attached to verbs). 
  - Relationships between scrambling (giving either free constituent order or
    free word order) and second position for clitics.

.............................

Send two copies of proposed papers to:
  Aaron Halpern / Arnold Zwicky
  Linguistics - 222 Oxley Hall
  1712 Neil Ave.
  Columbus OH 43210-1298

Questions or comments about the workshop can be directed to us
by e-mail:  halpern@ling.ohio-state.edu and/or zwicky@ling.ohio-state.edu.
Newsgroups: sci.lang,sci.cognitive
From: peeters@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (bert peeters)
Subject: cognitive linguistics
Keywords: French summary available
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:01:08 GMT

An updated and less biased version of the Cognitive Linguistics summary 
which I sent out to several readers of sci.lang and sci.cognitive is now
available in French and by e-mail only. You should have UUDecode at your
end to make the file readable. If interested, drop me a line.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Bert Peeters                         Tel: +61 02 202344
Department of Modern Languages               002 202344
University of Tasmania at Hobart        Fax: 002 207813
GPO Box 252C                            Bert.Peeters@modlang.utas.edu.au
Hobart TAS 7001
Australia
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: postpositive articles in English
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 23:37:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.130245.4164@memstvx1.memst.edu>, connolly@memstvx1 writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.165547.26076@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov19.215659.4152@memstvx1.memst.edu>, connolly@memstvx1 writes:
>>>There are some fossilized expressions of this sort in English:
>>>
>>>	knight errant
>>>	durance vile
>>>	Chicken Little
>>>
>>>But these examples are true fossils; other nouns and adjectives cannot
>>>be substituted, and the adjective cannot be compared.  In other words,
>>>there is no _*knight peripatetic_ or _*musician errant_, and certainly
>>>no _*durance vilest_.  _Proper_ is unusual, perhaps unique, in that it
>>>is only postpositive in this usage and can be used after many other nouns
>>>than _city_.  But even _proper_ cannot then be compared (_*city most
>>>proper_).
>>>
>>>--Leo Connolly
>> 
>> There is, on the other hand, _durance most vile_.
>
>Gee, I missed that one!  Or did I?  Maybe not.  The darned thing lacks
>a determiner, without which there is no superlative meaning.  Now _most_
>is used for other things than to form suppletive superlatives. Perhaps
>it is.  What do you lurkers think?

How would you characterize "most" in such sentences as

	I am most unhappy with that analysis

then?

I get two readings, by the bye.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: shan@ee.ic.ac.uk (Shan Parfilt)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: new newsgroup?
Date: 16 Nov 92 10:33:39 GMT
Organization: Elec. Eng. Dept., Imperial College London

A few people have expressed an interest in setting up a new newsgroup
or mailing list on the subject of Neural Networks and Natural Language.
Is anybody reading this similarly interested? If so,please make yourself
known! Anybody interested in moderating such a group or mailing list
also required, as I'm not really in a position to do it myself!
S. Parfitt
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler)
Subject: new newsgroups
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:58:05 GMT

Creating new newsgroups is no substitute for a good thread.  Those of
you who want a philosophical, neural network, or psychological version
of sci.lang should say what you want to say here, and if traffic gets
high enough to warrant a new group, then perhaps we could make one.
Unlike sci.anthropology, there is no gaping hole in the sci hierarchy
in this case.

I would like to see more traffic of the sort everyone else has mentioned,
but a new group won't remedy the situation.

Rod Johnson has already said as much, but he appeared to be ignored.
From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Gender terms; was: Re: Historical roots of "womyn" spelling?
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:45:04 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Nov16.232703.18304@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
> In article <1992Nov13.213241.19962@gov.on.ca>, renzland@gov (Peter Renzland) writes:

[stuff omitted]

> Historical accident.  Why did the reflex of the word that appears as Baum in
> German, boom in Dutch, disappear in English in favour of "tree"?  (English
> "boom" was borrowed from Dutch shipbuilding terminology.)

True enough that _boom_ is borrowed from Dutch, but the reflex of Proto-
Germanic *_bauma-_ 'tree' is alive and well in English.  PGmc. _au_
regularly appeared as Old English _e:a_, and the modern reflex is
_beam_.
 
>>not incidental:-)  German has lots of grammatical gender and it has Frau.  

An interesting case, since German once had a masculine counterpart _fro:_
that survives (mainly unrecognized) in _Fronleichnamfest_ 'feast of
Corpus Christi' and _Fronarbeit_ 'socage' (forced service to one's feudal
lord, I think).  The original meaning was 'lord, master'.  I suspect the
masculine was lost because of the unpleasant associations of _Fronarbeit_
and its kin.

>>I suspect that some other words (manual, human, person) are
>>(mis)taken to be gender-dominant by those who don't know their derivation.
> 
> Certainly.  How often have you seen reference to "herstory" = "history of women
> and women's issues," because "history" is thought to be derived from "his
> story"?

At least no one has yet suggested that women in church should sing tunes
from the hernal?

> The perceived connection between female and male is an old one.  Originally,
> the Middle English femel, femelle showed its Middle French origins, derived
> from Middle Latin femella, the Latin diminutive of femina "woman" = "one who
> suckles" (PIE *dhe:- "suck").

True, of course.  Where does that leave the feminist movement?

--Leo Connolly
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: postpositive articles in English
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:48:31 GMT

It is _not_ the case that articles in French (or English for that matter)
can follow their nouns.  Perhaps you are thinking of Rumanian, the only
Romance language where this is the case, I believe.  So far as I know, no
Germanic languages have postposed articles.  You have evidently been
misinformed about French.
From: mrpaolo@wpi.WPI.EDU (Paul M. Szymkiewicz)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Weekdays in Hungarian (was: other languages)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 20:02:08 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <1eabhcINN4dj@huon.itd.adelaide.edu.au> alex@cs.adelaide.edu.au writes:

>
>Pe'ntek : From slavic word meaning five (Fifth day)
>

Polish: Pia,tek 

I was wondering how slavic the etymology of this word really is. 
Any suggestions?
-- 
Paul (electronically known as mrpaolo@wpi.wpi.edu)
 _o          Warning: You may want to consult Surgeon General of your 
O/O          state before reading the text included in this message.
-----        Flammable contents. Do not expose to open fire.
From: janus@staff.tc.umn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Cassette course wanted (DANISH)
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:31:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: staff.janus.722010715
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Minnesota

In <1992Nov16.210350.17087@ultb.isc.rit.edu> cml0464@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung) writes:


>	if anyone has a full-length cassette course on Danish I would be
>interested in hearing from him or her.

--------

I suggest you contact:

Dept of Independent Study
45 Wesbrook Hall
77 Pleasant St SE
The University of Minnesota--Twin Cities
Minneapolis, MN 55455
 
Phone: 612.624-0000

and ask about the Danish Correspondence course.  It may not be available
quite yet, but I'm sure it will be soon.  I believe there are cassettes
available for it, too.

Louis Janus
From: miles@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Problems with GB?
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:59:41 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England


Hello all.

Just a quickie.  Does anyone know of any syntactic constructs
that are beyond GB?  I'm curently writing a paper and a section
deals with inadequacies of syntactic theories that are purely
deductively based.  GB is one such theory in that a GB constructed
parse can be viewed as begin deduced from GB's principles of
grammaticality.  A failure to deduce the syntax of a sentence
will mean wither that the sentence is ungramamtical or that 
GB's principles of grammaticality are incomplete.  So, anyone
know of any incompleteness in GB?


In case you are wondering, my work concerns learning syntax.

Thanks!  (as ever)

Miles
miles@minster.york.ac.uk	"All is vanity".
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley)
Subject: Bilingual announcement
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:46:25 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Just for fun, I relate a story from a friend of mine.  He was in a
train station in Toronto (I think), and heard the public address
system say something like:  "Ladies and gentlemen, the buffet is
now open.  Mesdames et messieurs, le snackbar est maintenant ouvert."
-- 
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: postpositive articles in English
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 16:55:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.215659.4152@memstvx1.memst.edu>, connolly@memstvx1 writes:
>There are some fossilized expressions of this sort in English:
>
>	knight errant
>	durance vile
>	Chicken Little
>
>But these examples are true fossils; other nouns and adjectives cannot
>be substituted, and the adjective cannot be compared.  In other words,
>there is no _*knight peripatetic_ or _*musician errant_, and certainly
>no _*durance vilest_.  _Proper_ is unusual, perhaps unique, in that it
>is only postpositive in this usage and can be used after many other nouns
>than _city_.  But even _proper_ cannot then be compared (_*city most
>proper_).
>
>--Leo Connolly

There is, on the other hand, _durance most vile_.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: vere@netcom.com (Steven Vere)
Subject: Transplanting an American 7 year old into Germany
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:05:27 GMT

   My family and I presently live in California, USA.  I would very
much like to take a research position at the University of Saarland in
Saarbruecken, Germany, beginning in January 1993.  The job may last
anywhere from one to five years or more.  I have a concern about
transplanting my daughter, who is seven years old and in the first
grade, into Saarbruecken where she would probably have to attend
school in German.  I believe the population of Saarbruecken is about
200,000.  I rather doubt there will be a grammar school with
instruction in English.  Right now my daughter doesn't know a word of
German.
   Do any of you sci.lang linguists have an opinion, advice, or
experience to share with me on this problem?  What is the best
way to acclimate my daughter to life in Germany?  My wife knows German
pretty well.  Should we 1) put her in a German school right away, with
only a few weeks introduction to the new language; or 2) keep the
child at home for some months after we arrive in Germany to teach her
more German before sending her to school.  I am inclined to the second
option, but during this time she would be socially isolated from the
other (German-speaking) children.
   The kid is quite intelligent and has a good memory, but is a little
shy and sensitive.  Is this move to another country and language
likely to have any undesirable effects on a young child?  Are school
children this age likely to make fun of a new kid who can't speak
their language very well?
   I think in the long run the child will benefit, and end up
bilingual with no accent in German, unlike her father.  The problem is
how to smooth over the transition in the short term.
-- 
_____________________________________________________________________
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __  
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  | 
                                                                     
  Steven Vere                   Cold War Surplus Computer Scientist
  Boulder Creek, California                         vere@netcom.com  
     * Artificial Intelligence Research and Seasoned Firewood *
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __  
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  | 
_____________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky sci.lang:8079 alt.culture.tuva:189
From: karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.culture.tuva
Subject: Ulaan Bataar (was Re: Uighur & other scripts.)
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:20:11 GMT
Followup-To: alt.culture.tuva
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland

In article <11428@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.143205.22191@prime.mdata.fi> karttu@mits.mdata.fi
>(Antti Karttunen) writes:
>>I have some hazy memory that it [_sc._ Ulaan Baatar] means "Red Hero"
>>or something like that.
>
>Yes, exactly.  (Or almost.  _Baatar_ means `hero, champion, superman'.)
>
>>So I would guess that its name would get changed also,
>>maybe back to an old "Urga"???
>
>In traditional Mongolian symbolism red is the colour associated with
>the east.  (I think the eastern quarters of the Mongolian tents used
>to be painted red.  I've forgotten what colours symbolised the other
>three directions.)  So "Red Hero" means `Eastern Hero'.  Has the
>country (or the capital) changed its location recently?

Well, I guessed that "red" was used because of its communistic
connotations.

What about "Urga" then?
In newsgroup alt.culture.tuva in article <24018@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>
larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com (Larisa Stephan) writes:

>In keeping with recent threads extending the Mongolian connections
>of this newsgroup, I thought I would recommend the Russian film
>"Close to Eden" (original title "Urga," meaning pole-mounted lasso).
>...

>-- Larisa
>larisa@tcville.edsg.hac.com

And then there's also Ulan-Ude, the capital of Burjatia, near Baikal...

Now, because subject matter has not much to do with linguistics anymore,
I have set the follow-ups only to alt.culture.tuva. (At least it's near
Mongolia. What about alt/soc.culture.central-asia ?)

--
Antti Karttunen / karttu@mits.mdata.fi / $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: cml0464@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.M. Leung)
Subject: Cassette course wanted
Originator: cml0464@ultb
Reply-To: cml0464@ultb.rit.edu ()
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:03:50 GMT

Hi there:

	if anyone has a full-length cassette course on Danish I would be
interested in hearing from him or her.

	Thanks

Regards

p.s. preferably over at least six cassette tapes