From: tratclif@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Tracy Ratcliff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The Antiquity of "Christmas"
Date: 27 Dec 92 21:29:18 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

[edited version of this thread -- all inaccuracies in transcription mine]


lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

	There is evidence of great antiquity of such celebrations, in
: >:the form of various European megalithic monuments. Many of them had
: >:entrances aligned to the direction of Winter Solstice sunrise, which
: >:suggests that that time was a very important occasion for the
: >:structures' builders. [One source: Marija Gimbutas's _The Civilization
: >:of the Goddess_]
: >:
: >: 	The age of these monuments -- _at least_ 4000-5000 years (I
: >: don't recall precise figures), typically, which is a lot longer ago
: >: than when Jesus Christ lived.
: >

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

: >If I recall correctly, the structures (such as Stonehenge) were started
: >about 1000 BCE - maybe a bit earlier.

tratcliff@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (tracy Ratcliff (that's me)) writes:

: I _could_ make a quick dash to the bedroom to get the actual references, but, 
: naaah, I'll be like most everyone on the net and just pop off...
: 
: From memory, Stonehenge was a later structure (ca. 1500 BCE?) but many 
: megalithic structures in Western Europe predate the pyramids, 3000 BCE give
: or take a few centuries.

billn again:

: >I believe the comment was in reference to structures with polar alignments.
: >To the best of my recollection - 1000 to 1500 BCE was the earliest for these.
: >
: >Such things as cromlechs preceeded this period - but none of them had any
: >real alignment.

This sent me into the bedroom for references (Aside #1:  New Year's Resolution
BOOKCASES!!  Aside #2:  Murphy's Law:  of course, the book I wanted was at the
bottom of a meter-high stack of books _behind_ three other meter-high stacks..)

Bill, the dates you remember are about right for the 1950's estimate of 
Stonehenge (ca. 1850 BCE) but the current Carbon 14 dates corrected by
tree rings are substantially older (see below).  I_think_ Stonehenge is a
late example of a henge, too.

Other Megalithic/Neolithic sites are astronomically aligned, such as passage
tombs (earth mounds with a stone lined tunnel leading to a chamber) and
barrows.  Winter solstice alignments are common, and the passage tombs 
predate the henges.

From _Earth Magic_, Francis Hitching, 1977 (US edition) p. 105:

  The passage grave at Newgrange, carbon dated to the three centuries before
  3000 b.c., is a good example, with its phenomenal "light box" above the 
  entrance being so precisely aligned that the midwinter sunrise shines
  directly down the twenty-yard-long passage and into the tomb.  The 
  illumination lasts just a few minutes, and to achieve the effect, hundreds
  of stones weighing between two and fourteen tons were meticulously raised
  and balanced.

_In Search of Ancient Astronomies_, Dr. E.C. Krupp (ed.) 1978 [what a title!]
dates the first stage of Stonehenge at ca. 2800 BCE and the last at 2075 BCE.

The first book may interest a lot of people on this newsgroup.  Hitching tries
to combine archeological and "soft" evidence from the spiritual/magickal
viewpoint.
The second, despite the title, is a sober introduction to archeaoastronomy
with papers from such people as Dr. Alexander Thom, the father of the 
science.

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