From: parker@ehsn21.cen.uiuc.edu (Robert S. Parker)
Subject: Re: New Hypothetical question for pro choice.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:45:44 GMT

lfinkelstein@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>In a previous article, mprc@troi.cc.rochester.edu (M. Price) wrote:
>>In <8DEC92.18124392@vax.clarku.edu> lfinkelstein@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>> 
>>>If they found absolute proof that a fetus was capable of thinking, and feeling 
>>>from the moment of conception, would you still be pro choice?
>> 
>>  Assuming the fetus is inside a woman against her will, then of course.
>> But then, I'm pretty sure that you will define pro-choice as
>>"pro-abortion" anyway, so you're unlikely to understand my point of
>>view.

>You shouldn't be so sure of someone elses views.  I know the difference 
>between pro-choice and pro-abortion.  For a long time I was pro-choice.  Then, 
>one day, while I was marching, in Washington, for choice, I saw someone 
>carrying a sign that said "A fetus isn't human"  Seeing that sign really made 
>me think.  And I realized that it wasn't something I believed.  I never really 
>thought about the fetus when I was pro-choice.  Once I started to think about 
>the fetus I realized that I believe that it is a human from the moment of 
>conception.  If you believe that a fetus is human, then there is no way around 
>the fact that abortion is murder.  

*BZZZZZZZZZZZZT*  Wrong.

Murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent "person".  There are cases
where the deliberate killing of an innocent *human* is not "murder".  For
instance, severely brain-damaged coma patients who will never "wake up".  It
is reasonable to allow them to die (stop life support, thus "killing" them),
even though they are still *human*.

Since we are fairly certain that a fetus can not have sentience until *at least*
the 24th week, it is not a person until *at least* that time.  To kill it
before then is not "murder".  (and most abortions *do* occur before that time)

"alive" is a biological fact which is obviously true even before conception.
"human" is a genetic fact which is obviously true from conception.  (possibly
        before, if you consider sperm/egg to be "human" cells)
"feeling" (physical) is a biological fact that is true of all vertebrates and
          many classes of lower "animals" as well.
"thinking" (working brain) is a medical definition ("myelenation" is what I'm
           refering to as having a medical definition) that is not true until
           24weeks after conception in humans.  It is also true at some point
           in all other higher animals. (mammals, at least)
"intelligence" (sentience) is a somewhat philosophical trait that almost
               certainly requires "thinking" and "feeling", but also requires
               more.  It is not known at what point it becomes true for humans.

All of those are true for "normal" adult humans (children too, past some fairly
early age, *possibly* before birth).  "intelligence" must be true for it to be
considered "murder" since it is not "murder" to kill a simple animal, even
though they have a working brain, and it is not "murder" to "kill" a severely
brain-damaged coma patient, even though they are "human".

>Loren

-Rob