HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 21:38:08 CDT
From:         Bob Boston <S2.RSB@ISUMVS.IASTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Laptops-- The Dark Side of the Farce

Okay, here's the flip side of the portables.

First, requiring students to buy portable computers implies that they will
actually NEED those computers for most, if not all, of their course work. In
fact, that is not so at Iowa State. Several departments, particularly in the
Humanities, have no courses that require computers, and they seem to have no
desire to use them. Even the Computer Science department uses large-section
lectures as its basic teaching method. Students use VAX terminals outside of
class.

Second, the portable computers may not be able to do the jobs required by the
course. For example, the reaction-modeling software used by Chemistry requires
a minimum of 256 colors and very fast refresh rates.  Our own graduate classes
in layout and design require full-page monitors. Can PowerBooks run color or
portrait monitors? I don't know.

Third, while students should have campus-wide software "suites" on their
portables, they may have to run some course-specific software over the
network. Daedalus runs well when loaded from our file servers, but Canvas 3.0
takes almost 5 minutes to load across the net for one machine, and about 40
minutes when a full class of 24 is trying to load it. In a fifty-minute class,
that leaves little time for instruction.  Does that mean that we'd need a
campus-wide site-license for every program we use? And would even a campus-
wide license allow students to copy software to their own hard disks?

Fourth, cost to students would be very high compared to our current fees. An
English major attending Fall, Spring and Summer sessions now pays $120 per
year. Purchasing a PowerBook over a four-year span would more than quadruple
that cost. An Engineering major pays $300 per year, but the PowerBook purchase
would still increase that fee by a hefty 67%. Given the above points, I don't
think we could justify the additional burden on students.

But another installment will follow . . .

Bob Boston
Iowa State University
From: LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Using a VAX with a Mac front end (20)
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:20:00 GMT
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John B
MacKermit is what I'm currently using.  It lets me get to my Vax but I can only
use Vax Edit: several poeple, notably Natalie, have tried to wak through ways
to get it to do more, but they don't work--not for me, anyway!  Similarly, I've
jsut done what Simon the unspellable without a cue card directed me, which has
worked fine but made absolutely 0 difference to what's happenig when I type--
no wordwrap, no scroll, etc.
sigh
Liz
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 09:47:13 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Community of Teachers?

Re Irvin Peckham's question: "I'm wondering why we need computers to create
that sense of community?"

At one time, some of our ancestors sitting around a campfire exchanging
hunting stories must have been considered weird by the others huddling alone
in the dark, waiting for the sun to rise so they could see each other and
talk.  I'm sure papyrus scribes were considered weird--as weird as people who
talked over telephones.  I guess the point I'm trying to make is that
advances in technology often create new media (e.g., electric lights) that
extends, expands the ways in which we can communicate.  If this is coming
across as a flame, I apologize.  I'm finding it tough going on my campus to
implement CMC.  We have a brand new office/classroom building.  We have one
communication line in the entire building.  It's used by the secretaries, who
resent our using it.  We have offices and classrooms filled with powerful
computer equipment.  I even have a modem in mine.  But we have NO access to
comm lines suitable for e-mail.  Thus, I have to go over to the computing
center or wait until I'm at home to access e-mail.  The problem is that many
(most) of my colleagues see CMC as unnecessary, preferring word-processed
memos, FAXes, and endless rounds of face-to-face meetings.

Jim S.
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 09:00:20 CDT
From:         "(Irv Peckham)" <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Mastering Perfect Writer (16)

To David, Robert, and other KayProers:
I still have one of the II's, too.  My father-in-law uses it.
I was thinking fondly last Friday of the good ol' days--a
memory triggered by a motherboard failure of my 1 yr. old
33mz 386.
  I have often thought that I should spend a little energy
and round up a few dozen kaypro II's that I know are in people's
closets, hook modems up and have a free computer lab.  Most
users could learn wordstar in nothing flat.
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET (Bill Condon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Scheduling computer classroom
Date: 15 Oct 92 18:59:34 GMT
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Michael,
First, welcome to MBU!

During the fall, when demand is high because we offer more sections, we
generally schedule what you have called computer-assisted classes--sections
meet one day a week in the computer classroom and one day in a regular
classroom.  During the winter, when we offer fewer sections, we use
the computer-intensive approach.

For us, the main problem with the computer-assisted format is the students'
temptation to use the computer as only a fancy typewriter.  But that's overcome
by planning and by the students' general access to the machines outside class.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
From: maynor@Ra.MsState.Edu (Natalie Maynor)
Subject: Re: Textra
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 01:48:55 GMT

Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA> writes:

> (I'd prefer coping with both these bugs to
>teaching computer-innocent English majors Word Perfect, by
>the way.)

My remedial freshmen use Wordperfect in our lab with no problems at all.
This semester I had zero questions from them.  I had planned on spending
five or ten minutes the first day telling them how to use the computers
and how to use WP, but it wasn't necessary.  They turned on the computers
and started creating a WP document immediately.  I think people sometimes
underestimate the ability of students to adapt to computers.
--
   Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
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Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 20:00:00 MST
From:         Doyle Burke <BURKE@MC.BITNET>
Subject:      Textra

I'm curious about the difficulty uploading using Textra.  We
have done so successfully onto the VAX by having students save
their files in hard ASCII prior to uploading.  They also download
files successfully and edit them with Textra.

If your students save files in hard ASCII, what sort of problem
occurs?



Doyle Burke
Mesa Community College (AZ)
Burke@MC
From: YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET (Fred Kemp)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: not weird
Date: 11 Oct 92 17:08:00 GMT
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Irv, I don't think it's "weird" that computers engender sharing
and community, especially networked computers.  The typical
operating mode in English studies, nicely described by Karen
Lefevre in *Invention as a Social Act,* fits the "myth of the
individual writer," and a corresponding myth of the individual
researcher and fear of intellectual theft, ideas as property, and
a whole swath of prejudices relating to individual talent, inspiration,
genius, elitism, and so forth.  Literary scholars are powerfully
imbued with individualist values; David, and you too, feel that
teachers should collaborate with or without computers, but the
old model is so ingrained that it takes a real paradigm-buster to
enforce new models.  That's the real value of computers as
communication devices, hypertext, docuverse databases, electronic
libraries, and so forth.  They practically require new ways of
doing things, whether we can certify success or not.  (Now it's
time for somebody to point out the eternal baby heading
downstream with the bathwater.  That bathwater's going no matter
what.  If we're really concerned about the baby, we'd better
figure out ways to save it fast, instead of hesitating,
hesitating, hesitating, and thereby inviting in the exasperated
technologists and politicians who may impose the wisdom of
Solomon.)
Fred Kemp, Texas Tech.
From: EHH909F@SMSVMA.BITNET (Eric Hobson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: now THAT was a debate
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:58:00 GMT
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That was a debate.....well...
     It was a strage feeling, however, to return to the veep testosterone-
emission-match in the pages of the New York Times. Something was missing as the
editors got rid of the long litany of "Did so" "Did Not" that punctuated the
evening. SOmehow it all seems so flat on the page (puns may be intended here).
 Eric Hobson
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:22:00 CST
From:         "brown, lady" <ykflb@TTACS1.TTU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) ATTN: Lady Falls Brown (13)

Lili Velez, do you know if Bill Racicot as able to subscribe to
WCENTER?  Lady Falls Brown  Ykflb@ttacs
From: EHH909F@SMSVMA.BITNET (Eric Hobson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Pat Schroeder and Higher Education
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:48:57 GMT
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              8 Oct 1992 10:22:27 EST from <SSELBER@MTUS5.CTS.MT U.EDU>

As much as I tend to respect Congresswoman Schroeder's career, I see her recent
 comments as indicative of the type of rationalizing that has gripped Washingto
n for decades on the topic of education. When ever there is a perceived "wrong"
in the country the administrative structures in DC have--particularly during th
e Regan/Bush years--blamed either teachers and/or students for the ills. Regan
blatantly, and with much ballyhooing from William Bennett, wanted to put most o
f the nation's problems on the shoulders of students--their lack of academic
"excellence" would result in the US losing its competitive edge in the global
economy.  By waving the wand of "voodoo education" with its calls for a return
to the golden age of "the basics" these men (largely) convinced the populace
that the counrty's children were/are illiterate. Nowhere does this line of atta
ck address or recognize the fact that "literacy" in not a monolithic definition
 nor is it accurate to deliniate one literacy that is appropriate for participa
tion in a global economy.  When I see comments of the sort Rep. Schroeder made
I want to go back and reread large sections of Ira Shor's _Culture Wars_ as a
warm up for going back into Jonathan Kozol's _Savage Inequalities_.
    Given a political culture that does not value education as a broadly cultur
al activity--not just a vocational activity--I am always amazed that my student
s at the university level are doing as well as they are. They haven't (for the
most part) suscumbed to the mind-numbing monotony of American education (or its
politicians with their sound-bit pronouncements of doom about our students and
their teachers).
   Off to read Kozol again and wish Clinton had the sense to make him Sec. of
Education.......Eric Hobson
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 09:36:00 CST
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Community of Teachers?

Irv,
   It's not that we need networks for community, it's that when dealing
with others in real time networks, writing becomes the voice of authority
and speech becomes silent.  That opens up the communication in a more
democratic way.  It also removes the instructor from the position of
dominance, thus empowering the others in the community.  Empowered people
participate.

Michael Gos
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Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 00:38:36 -0400
From:         Margaret.Daisley@ENGLISH.UMASS.EDU
Subject:      Reply to Re: Reply to Re: Community of Teachers?

Irvin:  You do bring up the better question >(paraphrasing) why don't students
feel as free in the non-computer classroom?  Since I've also taught in the
traditional classroom, I've begun to see it in terms of how behaviors (and
pedagogy) become ritualized over time.  Before process writing, writing in-
struction (as the literature describes it) had become rather stagnant,
ritualized.  The combination of process writing techniques and computers have
rather deconstructed that model.  In traditional classrooms, process writing
techniques certainly work the same way -- but I've noticed that trying to get
a decent discussion off the ground constitutes "failure," when compared to what
happens on Interchange (or ENFI, or whatever).
    In a traditional classroom, you can use techniques such as having students
read papers out loud in small groups, and do other peer group work, and
conferences are certainly another way of getting in that ORAL mode, but
large scale discussions, in my opinion almost seem ... ritualized.  Some
always talk; some never talk; and some will talk sometimes.  Students too
easily seem to assume attitudes that they don't want to let go of -- the
"quiet" one, the "argumentative" one, the "clown" ... etc.  I'm not especially
happy with the way this looks -- in fact am doing some reading on it now.
Some questions:  what other pedagogy is there to help break up this non-
productive ritual -- in ways that CMC (Interchange, ENFI) seems to do?  What
will be the after-effects of the experience of having some productive
dialectical work with CMC?  Anything that carries over into the real (not the
virtual) discussion situation?
Margaret Daisley@English.UMass.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 08:11:21 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      ICLAS

Fred, ICLAS is fine as long as all you want to do is run Word Perfect or other
non-interactive software that isn't really designed with the network as its
primary medium; and as long as you don't want to run anything recent, like
versions of NetWare beyond 2.12 (ICLAS doesn't support 3.11, for example, and
I think it doesn't even handle 2.15).  I've seen it running in a high school
computer lab here in Austin, where the netadmin says it's got some limited
value-- but he gets frustrated when he tries anything interesting (i.e.
tricky).

Now, wasn't that diplomatic of me?

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:30:14 CDT
From:         "(McDonald James C)" <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject:      Easing rhet student isolation

Ellen, I'm having trouble remembering what I had to say on Sept. 17, but thank
you for recognizing its wisdom :-)
  Your post sounds like an invitation to begin a thread discussing what can be
done and what people have done in graduate school to give students with an
interest in rhetoric and composition a voice and help them find or build a
community.
  My experience was much different from yours--I was part of a large contingent
of rhetoric students at UT-Austin in the mid-80s, large enough to cause some
trouble in the English Department.  But I can think of a couple of things that
we did that were helpful.  If you can't get on the official Graduate Student
Colloquium, organize something unofficial to give your paper and get some
response.  We often did this under the auspices of AGSE at Texas, the Assoc.
of Graduate Students in English, often so that students could get feedback on
a paper that they were preparing for a conference or to send to a journal.
Even if just a handful of students and/or faculty showed up, it was helpful.
  One year Jim Berlin and Lester Faigley organized a rhetoric reading group,
which met once every three or four weeks to discuss an article or part of a
book.  We do that here.  It's a chance to socialize and discuss issues in
rhetoric and comp.  We put out notices about the group, and from the people who
show up, we find out who among the students and faculty have at least a passing
interest in some issues in rhetoric and teaching composition.
    Jim McDonald
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:25:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jazz Digression and its value

Well said, Karen.  And good to hear your "voice" once again on MBU.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:04:39 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: ReComposing (13)

On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:39:05 CDT Ellen Redding Kaler said:
>But I _am_ only a graduate student.  What can I do to lead my department
>into the 20th century.
>proposed a "Graduate Student Colloquium" presentation to the department:
>"On-line Encounters of the Literate Kind"--who knows if I'll get scheduled
>to present or even seriously considered.

Ellen,
What can you do? First, I'd recommend deleting the "only" from your
self-description. To paraphrase from the season finale of Northern
Exposure last spring: "One graduate student can have a profound
effect on another, but TWO graduate students, well, two graduate
students can change the WORLD!"

There's nothing "only" about graduate students.


Which means, basically, that you are already doing what you can do
by trying to get the word out, collaborating with anyone else who
shares your knowledge and enthusiasm. And if this proposed
presentation doesn't get selected, propose again, ask to present
to other campus groups, win allies where you can and eventually
you'll bring your ideas to the fore in a tidal sort of way.

Only guns can beat tenacity.

--Eric Crump
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 05:55:32 EDT
From:         Jim Fletcher <ENGJTF@NCSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      TO TEACHERS OF COMPUTER-ASSISTED WRITING CLASSES

      If you now teach, or have ever taught, a computer-assisted writing
 class, please help me with my research on the "History of Computer-
 assisted Classrooms in the Service of College Freshman Writing Courses."
 Feel free to expand--at length if you wish--on any of your answers.  I
 will share my findings with anyone who is interested.


 <<* SURVEY QUESTIONS *>>

 1)   Does your school have a dedicated computer-assisted writing
      classroom?

 2)   When was the classroom established?

 3)   Do your computer-assisted writing classes meet exclusively in
      the dedicated computer classroom?  If not, how often DO you meet
      in the computer classroom (1 of 3 periods; 2 of 3; 3 of 5;
      1 of 5; etc.)?

 4)   Do you know what percentage of freshman English students are
      enrolled in your computer sections?  If so, what is that
      percentage?

 5)   Who teaches the courses in your computer classroom: professors,
      lecturers, graduate student teaching assistants, anyone you can
      persuade?  (Or does your department consider this a status
      position, with teachers vying for a computer section?)

 6)   What software do you use?  Do all teachers of computer-assisted
      writing classes at your institution use the same software?  If
      not, what other programs are used?

 7)   Is the classroom networked?

 8)   What percentage of your time do you spend in class teaching
      computer know-how to your students?  Do you feel that this is
      time well invested considering that this is, after all, an
      English course?

 9)   Are students chosen at random for these sections or may they
      enroll specifically for computer-assisted writing sections?

10)   Would you be willing to answer a more in-depth survey or be
      interviewed by phone about your answers?
                                              <<*  END OF SURVEY  *>>

      If you have any questions--or more information--you may contact
 me at: ENGJTF@NCSUVM.CC.NCSU.EDU or ENGJTF@NCSUVM.BITNET.

     Feel free to add statements or explanations regarding any of the
 above questions.  Also please pass this survey along to other
 interested persons or discussion groups (NOTE!  Cross-posted to:
 IPCT-L, Humanist, Megabyte U, Purtopoi).  Thank you for your time
 and energy in completing this questionnaire.

 Jim Fletcher
 Department of English, Box 8105
 North Carolina State University
 Raleigh, NC  27695-8105
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:15:08 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: mandatory portables

 *** Reply to note of 10/08/92 08:33
 ASU has 40,000 students. We would need 4,000 work stations if we were to have
 one for every 10 students (math whiz!). It'll be awhile. We are, in fact,
 counting on students'getting their own machines in large numbers. I suspect
 that long before we can afford enough work stations to serve our students,
 students will have their own. Maybe we should just make them buy modems.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:22:27 EST
From:         Stuart Selber <SSELBER@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Pat Schroeder and Higher Education
              7 Oct 1992 17:48:00 CST from
              <UAHRXN01%UAHVAX1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU>

Schroeder and Higher Education

Rose:  I, too, was upset by the discussion I saw Congresswoman Schroeder
engage in with higher-level administration and students.  Outside of the dollar
figures they were throwing around--wherever did they get them?--I was equally
upset by the general concensus among the participants that professors/teachers
teach a few hours a week, do some research, and basically have a lot of free
time on their hands.  If the concensus among this group is representative of
how our society views those in higher education, what, if anything, do we do
about it?

Stuart Selber
Michigan Tech
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 10:27:46 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Community of Teachers?

Re computers and communication

C'mon, David E. Schwalm.  What're putting in your drinks.

:-)

Jim S.
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