HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:09:06 GMT
Distribution: na

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>In article <louis.724011004@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca> louis@aupair.cs.athabascau.ca (Louis Schmittroth) writes:

||Did you know that the Apple PowerMate portable is manufactured entirely
||in Japan?  By Sony.  Apple is becoming a "hollow" company.  Apple
||employees are not profiting by making portable computers.

||A healthy American (and Canadian) economy needs high-tech
||*manufacturing* jobs, not just MacJobs.  

|Then you are saying that you are interested in having the government stop
|raising the cost of labor with things like plant closing laws, health
|insurance laws, minimum wage laws, family leave laws, pro-union laws, etc.

|One thing I find interesting is that when news of changes for the better 
|occur in employment, they are criticized by the left no matter what segment
|they occue in.  If the new jobs are well-paying, they claim that this neglects
|the poor.  If the growth is in low-wage jobs, they complain that it is "McJobs"

It isn't high wages that causes the American companies to be
non-competitive, it is the low productivity.  Lester Throw reports and
documents that Germany is the leading exporter of textiles with wages
running about $4 an hour higher than US textile workers.  They work
smarter with better machines, better management, and a different view of
human resources.  Helmut Kohl and crew cannot be put down as leftists.

In general I find the old tired classification of left and right as
irrelevant in today's world, and certainly do not put myself down as
left, anymore than Ross Perot is either left or right.

By the way I understand that Apple went to Sony for development and
manufacture of the PowerBook 200 because it just didn't have the inhouse
expertise, especially in LCD displays.  It is the kind of engineering,
planning, development, control jobs that I think is a shame for the
country to lose.  

I would also bet, but cannot prove, that the Sony employees in Japan are
earning more assembling PowerBooks than the Apple workers in the US are
assembling desktop machines.  Anybody know the answer?
--
Louis Schmittroth louis@cs.athabascau.ca
NW 1/4 18 67 21 W4 Alberta.
From: s462075d@edinboro.edu
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Date: 11 Dec 92 16:13:55 GMT
Organization: Edinboro University of PA

In article <1992Dec4.093943.4029@news.ysu.edu>, ae547@yfn.ysu.edu (Ronda Hauben) writes:
> 
> The supposed claim that the U.S. govt has humanitarian reasons for
> invading Somalia is false. 
> 
> Last year the Michigan Govt. (with Governor Engler leading the assault)
> cut general assistance welfare relief for people in Michigan who
> had no work. That threw people out on the street with no place to 
> live.
> 
> The same U.S. government which throws U.S. people out on the streets
> to starve clearly has no humanitarian reasons to invade Somalia to
> bring humanitarian aid to people.
 
This point was summed up on the news the other night pretty well.  A
street person was asked his opinion on the war(?) and why the government
wasn't helping him first.  He gave complete support to the war, saying
"I'm hungry, but I'm not starving."  Nuff said.

 
> It's the last thing needed by people in the U.S. The previous
> military invasion of Iraq by the U.S. sent the U.S. economy into
> a nosedive. With the bad economic conditions in the U.S., it 
> seems a new war is being presented to distract attention from
> the bad economic conditions within the U.S. But it will only
> make everything worse.

Remember, too, that the Gulf War was accompanied by high oil prices, not
the case now.

> Ronda Hauben                    email address:ae547@yfn.ysu.edu


_/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\_
|Shawn Duffy    Edinboro University of PA,     United States of America     | 
| s462075d@edinboro.edu/ A student in need of a job/Go Steelers-Cowher Power|
|               "We've upped our standards, so up yours."                   |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: canright@convex.com (Robert Canright)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: "Death of America"
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:12:25 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <BzH7zu.us@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

>In article <canright.724701447@convex.com> canright@convex.com (Robert Canright) writes:
>>Let's face it: Congress is addicted to deficit spending & is practicing
>>denial.  Exponential increases in spending cannot continue forever.

>  Why "Congress"?

>  Did you see the recent poll on health-care?   What did it say 
>  people wanted?  Prcatically everything: high quality, no restrictions,
>  no waiting.   How much were they willing to pay?  No more than $20
>  a week!

>  Ditto on everything else:  Whenever there's a disaster or crisis, domestic
>  or foreign, the voters love it when we send in the Marines or National
>  Guard.  Cure for AIDS, cure for cancer, national parks, explore space,
>  guaranteed college loans, help the pure, fix the environment, and a 
>  zillion other things, they're all for it.  Try closing a military base
>  or canceling a defense contract and they squeal like stuck pigs.
>  Raise taxes?   Get real.  

>  Don't blame Congress -- they're following the dictates of the
>  voters -- just try running for Congress on a platform of CUTTING 
>  local porkbarrel projects and see how far you get!  


>---peter


>  
True words.
During the Bush/Clinton debates, the night of audience participation, a man
with a pony tail asked Bush what he (Bush) was going to do to "meet our
needs".  Typically, Bush missed an opportunity to point to this man and
say, "America, meet the cause of your national debt!"
Is this country suffering from mass delusion?
Is there an answer?
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca (The Econoclast)
Subject: Declining Intro Enrolments
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:04:21 GMT

At our university, the percentage of incoming students who take the
first year course has plummeted in the past five years from over 62%
to about 39%. Are other economics departments facing a similar
phenomenon, or should we be directing our attention exclusively
inward?

Thanks.

-- 
  Regards,

  John Palmer    London, Ontario       Voice: (519) 661-3533     FAX: 661-3666
  reply to jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca       The Economics Institute for Journalists
  ============================================================================
  The New Economics: Overlapping Generalizations & Rationalized Expectorations
Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.amateur-comp,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
From: mkohlhaa@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mike)
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:01:55 GMT

  nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
  
  [stuff about unions deleted]

  >The correct solution to having good working conditions and good
  >worker treatment is to have an economy that's strong enough
  >so it generates so many jobs that workers are always in demand.  
  >
  > ---peter

  Isn't that what causes increased labor prices which leads to run-away
inflation?
-- 

					-- Mike

Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.legal
From: Lyle_Seaman@transarc.com
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:50:50 GMT

KLAFF@lexmark.com writes:
> They don't think the odds are nil, and neither should we.  They are well
> organized and they know that here, losing money over several years is
> not tolerated by owners of companies.  

Bullshit.  How many years did IBM lose money manufacturing printers
before sending Lexmark out into the cold to stand on its own?  They
were certainly willing to tolerate losing money over several years,
even though it didn't do them a damn bit of good.  And that wasn't
because their vision wasn't long-range enough, it was because they
were screwing up.  

I used to work for Wang Labs.  They lost money over many several
years, on the premise that someday people would realize that
minicomputers are really where it's at.  And they have gone into
bankruptcy.  **NOT** because their competitors were dumping, because
management practices were much too wasteful and lacked vision.

Lyle		Transarc		707 Grant Street
412 338 4474	The Gulf Tower		Pittsburgh 15219
"I don't believe it!  I believe it, though..." 	- kazar
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss)
Subject: Re: ***(NEW EDITION) JAPANYES;VERY POPULAR PAPER ON JAPANESE BUSINESS STRATEGY (1of2)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:23:46 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: (speaking only for myself)

In article <1992Dec8.181947.11191@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>Even if you could "buy up and resell" dumped products, it will put
>>your production plant out of business. Then the dumper takes over the
>>jobs and the industry, even though under the theory of comparative
>>advantage which is the basis for free trade policies you should have
>>had the business.
>
>The dumper will go out of business if they are indeed dumping, rather
>than producing at a lower cost (which is what many of the rulings for
>"dumping" have come from).  What, they lose money on every sale, but
>make it up in volume?

NO.  Haven't you READ the Paper by Louis Leclerc?  The point is,
the keiretsus (zaibatsus by any other name) can finance the loss
for a VERY long period of time, driving American industry out
of the business.  THEN, they can come in and take it over.
So, while they lose money on each sale, the loss is financed by
high prices in their own home markets plus transfer financing from
other industries' profits.


>>The flaw in the theory of comparative advantage which dumpers exploit
>>is that it neglects shut down and start up costs. Once you have been
>>temporarily put out of the business, it is often too costly to get
>>back in, and the dumper wins.
>
>Win what?

The market, Ted.  Aren't you paying attention?  Please read the whole
article before posting.


>-- 
>ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
>standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
>the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637

There are MANY reasonable counterarguments to Leclerc's article.
You haven't presented any -- yet.

-- 
   _  Alan R. Weiss   IBM AWS Austin-AIX Kernel   11501 Burnet Rd, Bld 905
 _| ~-. alan%auntbea.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | Austin, TX 78758
 \, *_} auntbea.austin.ibm.com!alan@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com | 512-838-8281
   \(   DISCLAIMER:  Working at, not speaking for, IBM  | alan@auntbea
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: jackson@kaos.stsci.edu (Bob Jackson)
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
	<BzEqMA.D9z@apollo.hp.com> <BzEzv6.HHA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:48:50 GMT

A naive question.

If INFLATION is defined at the overall price level rising
Then how can that occur without an increase in the money supply?

For prices to go up, then incomes must go up in order to pay
for the higher prices.

In these scenarios, how does everyone's income increase in real term?
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.energy
From: treitel@gracie.IntelliCorp.COM (Richard Treitel)
Subject: Re: Our soviet style road system.
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:58:30 GMT
Organization: IntelliCorp Inc.

In article <1992Dec10.202952.758@njitgw.njit.edu>, aaron@funcity.njit.edu (Aaron Watters) writes:

 [stuff deleted]
|> Taxing fuel to pay for highways is like taxing electricity
|> to pay for phone service.  It makes a lot more sense to have
|> a direct payment mechanism

What percentage of electricity gets used by phones?
What percentage of fuel gets used by vehicles on highways?

I agree about the direct payment mechanism, *provided* that we can develop
a collection system whose overhead costs do not exceed the inefficiency
caused by taxing fuel instead of direct usage. (And maybe rebating the tax
to whoever can show they don't use highways -- such as airlines.)  Stopping
at a tollbooth every ten miles would be wasteful of both time and fuel.
With modern electronics we can probably figure something out.

BTW, I have a vague memory that roadway damage increases as the *cube* of
vehicle weight.  Tax those big rigs!
Xref: sparky sci.econ:9347 misc.legal:21296
From: peercy@crhc.uiuc.edu (Mike Peercy)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,misc.legal
Subject: Re: "Dumping"
Date: 12 Dec 1992 18:16:05 -0600
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo.crhc.uiuc.edu

thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

| I never disagreed with this.  I disagreed with the concept of dumping/
| predatory pricing -- that firms engage in below-marginal-cost pricing
| in order to drive all of their competitors out of the market and benefit
| by charging monopoly pricing that more than makes up the discounted 
| difference between the predatory losses.  Other than the questionable
| case of Standard Oil at the turn of the century, I haven't seen evidence
| that this happens at all.

The _very_ questionable case of Standard Oil.

According to McGee ("Predatory Price Cutting:  The Standard Oil (N.J.)
Case" _Journal of Law and Economics_, Oct. 1958), while Rockefeller
threatened predatory pricing, there is no evidence that he did it.

In fact, the evidence shows that, where price wars existed, it was
the smaller producers who undercut Standard in order to gain market
share in their respective regions.  And apparently such strategies
were somewhat successful.

Think about it.  The more market share a company has, the more
difficult it is to maintain it through predatory pricing.  In the
simple example where Standard Oil has 80% while Bob's Oil has 20%,
Standard's undercutting price will cost it four times the marginal
loss of Bob's.  But if Standard has 90% of share while Bob has 10%,
Standard's marginal loss in a price war is _nine_ times Bob's.  And, 
considering the ease with which Bob can slowdown his production
(especially in pumping and refining), he could force Standard to
lose that much more.  (In other words, Bob basically gets to decide
how much Standard loses; he is in the driver's seat.)

Now, for those who would claim that Standard's wealth allows it to
lose money at this rate, and would want to lose money at this rate
(which it didn't), substitute "Vanderbilt" or "Carnegie" for "Bob".

In fact, I would argue that attempting to achieve a monopoly through
dumping is inherently unstable.  That is, the closer one comes to
achieving monopoly, the more resistance to that achievement exists.
Is anyone aware of a system's theory treatment of predatory monopoly
along these lines?

Of course, I still eagerly await an example of predatory pricing
permitting future monopoly profits.

Mike Peercy
peercy@crhc.uiuc.edu

    It is interesting that most of the ex-Standard employees who
    testified about Standard's deadly predatory tactics entered
    the oil business when they left the Standard.  They also
    prospered.
			     John S. McGee
Newsgroups: sci.econ,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:06:38 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <JACKSON.92Dec17154850@kaos.stsci.edu> jackson@stsci.edu writes:
>A naive question.
>
>If INFLATION is defined at the overall price level rising
>Then how can that occur without an increase in the money supply?

With either (1) a decrease in the amount of goods available, or
(2) an increase in the velocity of money (i.e., how fast the money
gets spent -- say I have $100, which I put in the bank; person B
borrows that money, buys goods from person C; person C deposits the
money in the bank, which then loans it to person D, etc.)

Or, it could just be bilateral agreements among everybody -- if
unemployment is low, workers can extract higher wages from their
employers, who then raise prices.  In 1987, New England was in this
sort of situation.  New York City has a sort of inflation about it --
they use the same dollar bills, but they're unquestionably worth less
in value than the same dollar bills in Houston.  But because it's
difficult to move an empty apartment complex from Houston to New York,
shortages remain in NY while surpluses remain in Houston, and the latter
will have lower prices.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Xref: sparky sci.econ:9436 alt.amateur-comp:362 talk.politics.misc:64559 misc.misc:4079
From: gorelik@xsoft.xerox.com (Mike Gorelik)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.amateur-comp,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:35:06 GMT
Organization: XSoft, Palo Alto

In <1992Dec14.185844.6519@oracle.us.oracle.com>, mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
|> In  <1992Dec10.010753.10523@xsoft.xerox.com> gorelik@xsoft.xerox.com (Mike Gorelik) writes:
|> >In <1992Dec9.225007.8348@hal.com>, bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendleton) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >|> But let me decide if I want to work 80 hours a week or not. 
|> 
|> >If you want it, fine. But what if you want to work 40 hours 
|> >and your employer wants you for 80? For 40 hours pay. Than what? 
|> 
|> Same as if he wants me to work for 40 hours but only get 20 hours pay
|> - I say no.  This sanction seems to work quite adequately already.

I'm glad your job is secure, I really do. What about people who are not
so fortunate? Should employer have power to work them any number of hours?

|> 
|> >
|> >How about a law about time and half overtime pay? I bet you would hate 
|> >to take home 2.5 times your regular paycheck for your 80 hours weeks.
|> 
|> Cute idea.  
Thank you, it is not  mine. Some places in this country, many (most, all?) corps
in Japan pay overtime to all non-management employees.

|> Only one problem - if you aren't being seriously
|> underpaid, 
Compare to what?
|> time and a half makes you a bad deal.  

Why we pay $10 for overnight delivery? It is a bad deal compare to a regular 29c
letter, no?  Overtime work is something unusual and sudden, a premium 
over standard wage rate is, usually or should be, justified.
For an employer to get that extra service for free is a steal-deal, as with all
free services it is being overused and misused.

|> At Oracle, hourly
|> employees need to get special permission to work over 40 hours a week.
|> Usually they don't get it because the work they do isn't worth 1.5
|> times their base salary
Or there is a line of people ready to fill additional positions at the company and 
do that work for the base salary.

|> - if it was we would be paying them that much base.
Most businesses are not as  humane and people caring as Oracle apparently is. 
Most businesses set pay based on labor market situation subject to 
business and regulatory constrains. It is likely that some
Oracle employees in the developing countries produce as much
for company as US based employees, yet Oracle pays them 
wages which are set locally.

|> -- 
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.

-- 
mike gorelik			

To save energy light at the end of the tunnel was turned off.
-----
From: edb17@bih.no (Svein Solheim)
Newsgroups: u3b.misc
Subject: test
Date: 14 Dec 92 12:42:31 GMT
Organization: Bergen College of Engineering, Bergen, Norway
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]




dette er en ny test

i
From: edb17@bih.no (Svein Solheim)
Newsgroups: u3b.misc
Subject: test
Date: 14 Dec 92 12:25:06 GMT
Organization: Bergen College of Engineering, Bergen, Norway
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

this is a test.
Newsgroups: u3b.test
From: alex@ifi.uio.no (Celso ALEXander Mezzetti)
Subject: test
Organization: EnigmaSoft, Oslo, Norway
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:02:43 GMT
Originator: alex@solva.ifi.uio.no


///
From: cordier@irisa.fr (cordier marie-odile)
Newsgroups: fnet.general
Subject: Contacts...
Date: 13 Dec 92 11:59:25 GMT
Distribution: fnet
Organization: IRISA, Rennes (Fr)

From surkan@cse.unl.edu Fri Dec 11 17:50:57 1992
Received: from irisa.irisa.fr by turbo.irisa.fr; Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:50:57 +0100 (5.65c8/loc4.11)
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	for @hoss.unl.edu:cordier@irisa.fr id AA02452; Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:54:24 -0600
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:54:24 -0600
From: surkan@cse.unl.edu (Al Surkan)
Message-Id: <9212111654.AA02452@cse.unl.edu>
To: cordier@irisa.fr
Subject: NN Researcher in USA
X-Charset: LATIN1
X-Char-Esc: 29
Status: R


Hello, 

I am a professor and researcher mostly interested in
solving problems addressed by computer science people
who claim to work in the subarea of artificial intelligence.

I have little interest in building or advancing the art 
of symbolic rule based expert systems and traditional 
numerical methods and combinatoric search oriented algorithms.

My interests lie in either the intersection or union of the
following evolutionary and trainable supervised or self-
organizing system:

1) Sparse Distributed and Associative Memories
2) Backpropagation trained and minimized layered neural networks
3) Genetic Algorithms trained neural networks
4) Fuzzy Algoritms and Expert sytems and controllers
5) Non-grammer based low-level natural language understanding
7) Array based and interactive problem solving with APL, APL2 and J
8) Connectionist system for natural language translation
9) Customized Neural Networks for financial applications

If you can put me in email contract with potential collaborators
I will very very happy to explore joint research, mediated with
email communications.    Thank you very much,  Alvin Surkan
From: niquil@aar.alcatel-alsthom.fr (Yves Niquil)
Newsgroups: fnet.general
Subject: Recherche velo.
Date: 10 Dec 92 13:25:14 GMT
Reply-To: niquil@aar.alcatel-alsthom.fr ()
Followup-To: fnet.followup
Distribution: fnet
Organization: Alcatel Alsthom Recherche (Marcoussis)

Je poste cette annonce pour un ami.

Il cherche a acheter, en region parisienne, 

un VELO D'OCCASION
demi-course, grand cadre.
pour 1600 F maximum.

Appelez-le au 42 59 00 06.


Yves Niquil (niquil@aar.alcatel-alsthom.fr).
Xref: sparky fnet.general:159 resif.admin:51 soc.culture.french:9108 frmug.general:48