From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Guttmacher - The Preferred Choice
Date: 13 Aug 92 14:38:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

To Linda Birmingham (or 'Ms. Birmingha', AS YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO LEAVE OFF THE 's'
   IN MY NAME, which is Richard Pitts - note the 's')

Pardon me for the rant - I often spell words wrong or even use the wrong 
verb tense, but the point is usually clear - However, I don't think I've
spelled my name wrong and I believe using anothers's correct name is a 
sign of respect.

In article <92224.222434ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca (Linda Birmingham) writes:
|In article <65508@hydra.gatech.EDU> Richard Pitts says:
|>
|>In article <92219.223309ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> Linda Birmingham writes:
|>|In article <65039@hydra.gatech.EDU>  Richard Pitts says:
|>|>In article <92215.220709ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> Linda Birmingham writes:
|>|>>In article <64793@hydra.gatech.EDU> Richard Pitts says:
|>|>>>In article <03qm_qd.ray@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
|>|>
|>|>>>>>Has anyone else heard the statistic that AG informations
|>|>>>>>points to the fact that 90% of those who have had
|>|>>>>>an abortion would have picked another option, if 'a good
|>|>>>>>alternative' was available or something like that?
|>|>
|>|>>>>>Sounds like the great desire for The Choice (The Right) does
|>|>>>>>not mean that the ones who are making the choice think that
|>|>>>>>abortion is the The Preferred Choice.
|>|>
|>|>>>>And what have the Conservative Right and the Piously Religious
|>|>>>>done to provide alternatives?
|>|>
|>|>>>Nice names CR and PR - they may not have done anything, but...
|>|>
|>|>>But what?  These are the groups that are demanding
|>|>>women bear children they can or do not wish to bear.
|>|>>Should they not be doing something?
|>|>
|>|>But you should have read the next paragraph where I tell of what I
|>|>know is being done, without jumping to a premature conclusion.
|>|
|>|I did read your following comments, Mr. Pitts, they
|>|had nothing to do with the statements made above.
|>|You, yourself, stated they "may have done nothing but..."
|>|I asked why "but".
|>|
|>|Do you care to address that now?
|>
|>OK - here is the original - it is the same as it is quoted in this post,
|>but I'm placing them back together in the original adjacent paragraphs.

[original deleted by L.B.]

|Mr. Pitt I stated that I had read it.  It was unnecessary
|to repeat it and it did not address either Mr. Fischer's
|or my comments.

It did not appear that you read it for IT GAVE EXAMPLES OF PRO-LIFE
GROUPS IN ATLANTA WHO ARE PROVIDING ALTERNATIVES.  

|>The point is and I clarify is that Mr. Fisher can give nice names
|>to any group he decides - the name don't mean anything - and
|>the groups he points at 'may not have done anything, but ...' and
|
|Are you trying to say that right wing organizations,
|the organizations Mr. Fischer was referring to, do
|not hold, or have held, considerable political power?

No. 

|That these organizations have not shaped policies
|that affect women, like those polled in the Guttmacher?

We are trying, as we have the right, power, opportunity, and 
responsibility to do and as others do - we push our priorities
and others push their priorities.

|>I follow it with a couple of cases that are doing something (the
|>Pro-life crisis pregnancy clinics in Atlanta and my church's ministry.
|
|That affect a specific group of women and not
|those women affected by right wing organizations
|nor are they obviously helping the 90% of women
|in the Guttmacher poll.

I don't follow this statement.  

Again, we are doing what we can to help those here - NOT ALL 90%, FOR 
ALL 90% ARE NOT IN ATLANTA.  There are about 3,000 Crisis (Pro-Life) 
Pregnacy Clinics in the US - they are working on this, too.  

Since you seem to want me or the local groups I know about to 
do a lot, WHAT ALTERNATIVES ARE YOU PROVIDING?

|>|>>>Many if not most Pro-life clincs in the Altanta area provide
|>|>>>alternatives - home for crisis pregancies, adoption, etc.
|>|>
|>|>>>Our church has a ministry that does this.  My wife and I
|>|>>>are on the list to take these women into our home.
|>|>
|>|>>Are either you or your church capable of caring for all
|>|>>the women who require this service?  What about after
|>|>>the crisis pregnancy?  Do you support day care and
|>|>>job security?
|>|>
|>|>We (me and my individual church) are not responsible for ALL the women
|>|>who require this service,
|>|
|>|Yet you are willing to create legislation that will
|>|affect "ALL" women, including those that do not
|>|want the services.
|>
|>Most want some alternatives.
|
|Perhaps, but you seem unwilling to exert the same political
|pressure to ensure that these women get the alternatives.

We are providing them.  Again, people have to be responsible - 
people need to be educated.

|>|You also failed to address the rest of the question
|>|Mr. Pitt.  Do you support programmes that will
|>|ensure day care, paid maternity, and job security?
|>|Real iniatives that will help all women, not just
|>|those that can be helped by the limited resources
|>|of religious organizations.
|>
|>No, I DID NOT FAIL TO ADDRESS THIS.  I said I wasn't doing much
|>about it and presented the point about people being wise in
|>their decisions and PLANNING BEFORE THEY BEGIN THE ENDEAVOR.
|
|Mr. Pitt what does this answer have to do with job
|security, affordable day care or pay equity.?

Don't play if you can't pay or learn how to pay if you play.
We have in the US the right to pursue happiness, but we don't have
the guarantee of financial resources from everyone else to have
this happiness - ever how one defines happiness.

|>[my original comments were below and are now deleted, but they
|>cover a vast majority of your questions about provisions.]
|
|I'm afraid sir they didn't.  You have yet to say
|whether either you or your church support social
|programmes that will assist all women in alternatives
|to abortion.  Indeed your answers indicate that neither
|you or your church are interested in helping the 90%
|of women in the Guttmacher poll who said they wish
|they had alternatives.

I say and beleive I said that my local church in Atlanta is NOT responsible
for EVERYBODY (ALL WOMEN, as you put it).  As far as SOCIAL PROGRAMMES,
I'd say we would generally be against them - that is not to say we don't
or won't help people, but that we don't think there should be a blanket
pledge to provide alternatives from the government.

What would you say would be an alternative?  I don't consider
alternatives to be different methods of abortion.

|>|>>>What does the Pro-Choice side provide? I believe they provide
|>|>>>abortions much of the time, for those who come into the clinics.
|>|>
|>|>>You have proof of this?
|>|
|>|>Do you disagree that 50+% or maybe even a lot higher percentage of
|>|>the women who go into abortion clinics get an abortion?
|>|
|>|I would not make any such statement Mr. Pitts, for
|>|I have no proof one way or another.  Do you?
|>
|>Check with your local Planned Parenthood or whoever will give you
|>some information and see what percentage get an abortion of those
|>who come to them for counselling.
|
|My local Planned Parenthood does not provide abortion
|services.  They counsel, mostly teenagers, on birth
|control.

As my local PP does also, but they have statistics or at least do in Atlanta.

|Again Mr. Pitt you made the assertion, do you have
|proof of your statements?

Again, I don't have any hard numbers, for the local PP hasn't been very 
responsive to my other request - I haven't requested this - WHY DON'T 
YOU TRY?  Again, I believe the abortion rate is above way above 50%.

|
|>|>I think there are at least 3,000 (pro-life) crisis pregnacy centers
|>|>in the US.
|>|>
|>|>Again I ask what is the Pro-Choice side providing?
|>|
|>|In my country they lobby governments for day care,
|>|adequate housing, education and job retraining.
|>|They provide birth control counselling, teenage
|>|hot lines and educational materials to schools.
|>
|>We are a capitalistic country.  Our churches on the other hand are to
|>help each other in their time of need.
|
|Mr. Pitt what does this have to do with your original
|question?  You asked what prochoice organizations
|were doing to provide alternatives.  I provided them.
|Further, if you think my country is not capitalistic,
|you are mistaken.

Captitalistic implies private companies and desire for profit on
sort of a private basis - sort of a every man for himself thing.
Churches are a community effort and should provide for needs.
Some lobby the federal (top level) government to get them to do
everything for them.  Others tend to want a local orginization
providing the need - Christian Churches can be and still are a
big part of humanitarian efforts, however, we don't run out and
give to people just because they ask (maybe we should), but we
have a set of guidelines - (e.g., if a man doesn't work, then
he doesn't eat, plan or suffer the consequences, etc) - and
so provide need based on these guidelines.

What alternatives are you providing, as you say you so do?

I think we are trying to provide needs different ways.  I
disagree with the methods you want to use - it seems you at
least disagree with my methods and maybe my reasons.

|>|They successfully lobbied for paid maternity leave
|>|(now 21 weeks), job protection, pay equity and
|>|adequate mother's allowances.  Programmes that the
|>|Pro-life organizations are lobbying to have
|>|dismantled.
|>
|>Does anyone have to work?  What motivates people to pursue business
|>endeavors?  How much redistribution of wealth should there be?
|>There seems to be a point that you have to draw the line.
|
|Excuse me?  Mr. Pitt did you not read what I wrote?
|With the exception of mother's allowance all those
|programmes ensure that a woman does continue to
|work and be self sufficient.  She continues to pay
|taxes just like everyone else.  She continues to
|contribute to society.

Your line is obviously different than mine.

|For women on mother's allowance there is a great deal
|of incentive and motivation for women to continue in
|their education and job retraining.
|
|Just what kind of alternatives did you think the women
|in the Guttmacher poll were talking about Mr. Pitt?

NOT ABORTION ALTERNATIVES.  Giving birth, adoption services, 
ACCEPTANCE FROM FAMILY AND FRIENDS regardless of the reason for
being pregnant, etc.  Again, this still does not relieve the
responsibility for planning - we all have to be responsible and
not expect others to provide for us.

|>|>>>>Conservatives oppose laws requiring maternity leave.  Both
|>|>>>>groups oppose sex education.
|>|>
|>|>>>>What's wrong with this picture?
|>|>
|>|>>>Greed - ignorance.
|>|>
|>|>>So what are you doing about it?
|>|>
|>|>Not much, how about yourself?
|>|
|>|If you are not doing much Mr. Pitts, why do you feel
|>|anyone else should, including me or prochoice organizations?
|>
|>Again, I say each person should PLAN - we are not to provide all
|>of life's necessities from birth to the grave.
|
|Again, Mr. Pitt, why condemn prochoice organizations
|for not providing services when you now appear to
|be holding only the individual accountable?

It seems you wanted to know what pro-life groups were doing and
I responded with what I knew and asked for what pro-choice groups
are doing.  

|If you hold the indvididual accountable, then the
|individual should be free to make the choice that
|is best for them, shouldn't they?

If there is no responsibility for you neighbor, then you are right.
I believe we have responsibility for our neighbor.

|>|>Where do you draw the line for the finacial support a person's choice of
|>|>having or not having a family?
|>|
|>|If you are going to force women to have children, I draw
|>|the line at ensuring all women are adequately clothed,
|>|housed, fed, medically cared for and their jobs or
|>|education secure.  Where do you draw the line?
|>
|>They should PLAN - what they cannot do themselves (MEN INCLUDED) can
|>be supplemented.
|
|Are you saying that if a woman took contraceptives
|because she was unable to care for a child, you
|would support her decision to have an abortion Mr. Pitt?

No - however, it seems you want me to or something.

I would support local help (neighbors, family, church) not NATIONAL
help for her, if she could not 'care' for the child.

A life without hardships is not guaranteed - one can and does grow
from trials - the lack of money is not the greatest problem one can
face.

|>|>Should it be mandated by law or
|>|>should it be reasoned out by the person making the decision.
|>|
|>|Which is why I am opposed to your legislating against
|>|abortion, I believe it should be reasoned by the
|>|person who must make the decision, not you or your
|>|legislative representative.
|>
|>I am part of this country and so I have a right to express my opinion
|>and influence my representative (NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION).
|
|Of course you do, but why do you feel the need to
|force women to have children through government
|intervention and then oppose government intervention
|to ensure those women and children are cared for?

I believe I've covered this in my above responses.

|Do you not think those who create legislation should
|be responsbile for its outcome, Mr. Pitt?

Yes, just as much as we are responsible to overturn legislation that
we don't believe is right.  Who went to the Supreme Court in the US
to win the right - who wants to put into law this decision?

Again, we have different priorities and we both have the right to
advance our cause.

|>If I am in the wrong and/or hold a minority position, as many say, what is
|>the big deal?
|
|Too some Mr. Pitt the right to bodily security is a
|very big deal.  I hope that if the government or a
|group of people actively pursue the taking away of your
|rights, that there are people left to protect you.

The point was that 'if we are so small of a group' that we don't have
any influence, then why is there some much opposition to us?  Why is
there so much opposition to providing information on fetal development
to the women who enter a clinic for cousel?  Why is there some much
opposition to parental consent for minor on this topic?

|Linda

Sincerely,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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Newsgroups: talk.abortion