From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: My Heritage
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:19:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209101317.AA27830@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
          -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene Bill Carlson <=-
 RAL> The mitzvah is "bris-millah." (bris and brit are the same word)
 RAL> I've never heard of a mitzvah of "brit."  Source, please?
     Logic.  He completed the Commandment of the Covenant -(circumcise)
     But he didn't complete the halachah of the Bris -(how to be
     circumcised).  Though it wasn't up to snuff halachicly, it was
     none-the-less - a circumcision (which is all the Mitzvah of the
     Written Torah called for in the first place after-all.)
 RAL> The term 'mohel' means 'one who performs bris milah' (Jewish
 RAL> circumcision) Zipporah certainly qualified.
     The "modern" usage of the term 'mohel', is an Observant Jewish
     male who is trained in the art of the Circumcision.  Zipporah
     was an angry mother with a sharp rock.   -That was my point :-)
 >  not in regard to the Mitzvot, and not
 RAL> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 RAL> This was before Sinai.
     So nu?  You are saying that from Avraham to Moshe, they were in
     violation of the Mitzvah of the Covenant that was given them
     directly by HaShem?!   That is why I asked you for verifiable
     halachah -(if it exists); - as the procedures followed by the
     first one (Avram) who was given the Brit-Millah, up through
     Moshe, would seen to be the most authorative -(when considering
     that both Tanakh and Mishnah is silent on the issue beyond the
     examples in the Torah :-)
 >      in the proper time
 RAL> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 RAL> 
 RAL> A 'bris milah' is still valid after the 8th day, although the
 RAL> 8th day is preferable.  Right now, Rich could get "hatafas
 RAL> dam bris" (there is no such thing as "re-circumcision") and
 RAL> fulfill the Torah commandment.
     Right now, I contend, that although not in the proper way -
     before HaShem he HAS fulfilled the Torah Mitzvah -he's Jewish,
     and he's circumcised!  (And yes, it can be after the 8th day
     due to illness - the example of Zipporah seems to rather be
     delayed though due to neglect).
 > - yet, it was accepted by HaShem and saved the live of Moshe.
 RAL> 
 RAL> Why shouldn't it have been?
     Because if it was non-proper, (being done in anger, etc.), than
     it seem that it wouldn't have been accepted.  But since it WAS
     accepted, then I conclude that it was the act of the circumcision
     itself that was accepted -even though it was done apart from
     procedure - even the procedure out-lined by HaShem as being
     required on the 8th day.
 RAL> (4) _does_ need "hatafas dam bris" (drawing the drop of blood
 RAL> for the sake of the commandment of bris milah)
     No.  Please show me in halachah that this is required on any but
     a proselyte to Judaism.
 RAL> A medical circumcision is not done for the sake of the
 RAL> commandment of 'bris milah' and therefore doesn't fulfill it.
     Zipporah's son's did.  And do we know the heart of his parents,
     as to the reason they circumcised their child?  Even if it was
     a lingering desire to circumcise their children because they
     themselves were Jews, even though by a doctor, and without the
     baruchot, would this not be the intention of the heart - and so
     recognised by HaShem -(perhaps being even a more noble desire
     than Zipporah's?)  If you disagree - halachah please.

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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