HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: did vs. done
Reply-To: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 11:31:06 GMT


In a previous article, bcushman@bagpipe.reed.edu (Ben Cushman) says:

>In article <1992Aug22.083524.3482@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>  
>roddi@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Roddi Walker) writes:
>> And ANOTHER thing that bugs me (hell, while I'm here :-) - I was told in
>> primary school not to put "and" after a punctuation mark (especially a
>> comma).
>>...

>
>	The rule for commas and "and" is that when "and" used to connect  
>clauses with the same subject (as in the above sentence) no comma should  
>be used, but if "and" is used to connect clauses that could be independent  
>sentences (have different subjects), then a comma should be used.
>
>She had not heard me and continued washing the dishes.
>I came in very silently, and she continued washing the dishes.


Quite right, but there are times when a comma is needed in a sentence of
the first type above, either for clarity or for rhythm.  Then you just put
it in.  

She had not heard me come up behind her with the pumpkin, and continued
to wash the dishes. 

Bonita Kale

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Puns
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 04:07:35 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes: 
| TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert) writes:
| >In article <pjh.713703937@nessi> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:
| 
| >>BTW I am well known around here for being a punster - I suppose the
| >                                             ^^^^^^^
| >Could anybody help me with the correct female form of "punster" -
| >is it "punstress" (or "pun-stress"), or perhaps "pundette"?
| 
| [Entirely too serious rebuttal to the above question deleted.]
| 
| I apologise if this seems like a personal flame - it is not intended
| as such. It is just my response to the whole thread I have been
| reading over the past week and which I have so far not replied to.
| Your question just pushed the button which motivated me to respond. I
| apologise also for going off into a tirade about it.

Gosh, Phillipa (may I call you Phillipa?), *I* sort of took the question
as a joke that was a reflection of the inanity of the whole discussion that 
*has* been going on for the past week.  I mean, the guy even used the
term "pundette" (which started the whole mess) to show how ludicrous it all 
is.  I just don't see how any question about the proper feminine form of a 
word like "punster" could be serious.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|The meaning of the complement form of a switch    |
|can be determined by complementing the meaning    |
|of the switch.                                    |
|                     --Ada Reference Manual       |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of 'I' and 'me'
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:56:04 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum):
:In article <1992Aug20.135351.7065@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
:>
:>It may be interesting to observe that in Spanish, "entre" (between)
:>is specifically exempted from requiring object-case pronouns, thus
:>rendering "entre tu y yo" (betwen you and I) grammatical by definition.
:
:"By act of this legislature, the preposition 'entre' is hereby
:exempted from the requirement in Section 2.4.a.iv)".  :-)

Yes, actually, that's rather how it went.  When you have a Royal Academy 
you get to do those kinds of things.  I believe "salvo" (except for) may
be similary exempted: "Lo hacen todos, salvo yo."

:My Spanish is rusty. Do other prepositions take objective pronouns in
:conjunction.  "con ti' y mi'" sounds just as bad, but I'm not sure if
:I should say "con tu y yo" or "conmigo y contigo".  How about
:constructions such as "nos buscaba a Juan y yo"? ("a Juan y mi'"?  "a
:Juan y a mi"?)

My ear says "conmigo y contigo" and "nos buscaba a mi' y a Juan".  I'd
have to dig out my textbooks to be sure, but repeating the prepositions
seems the easiest /raut/.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
    "The only reason for being a professional writer is that 
     you can't help it."
	--Wilson Mizner
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,soc.culture.canada
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: GAZETTE: THE WORLD 'REMARKS' OUR FRENCH-INFLUENCED ENGLISH
Originator: tchrist@pixel.convex.com
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:49:16 GMT
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig):
:French is in decline; English spreads more and more.  

Clearly.  You need English to be a global traveler, not French.

:People
:around the world have differing dialects--there are a hundred in the
:British Isles, many more in the US and Canada, more in India and the Far
:East, and so on.  S. African English is yet another version.  

I hope you don't mean that there are more than a hundred in North
America.  I believe that the British Isles still hold the richest
diversity of dialects, despite their comparatively limited geographic
extent.

--tom
-- 
    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

	    Sally with ally, yea, ye,
	    Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Reply-To: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 11:04:17 GMT


In a previous article, epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp) says:

>In article <frank2.21@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>, frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
>> Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
>> pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
>> commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	


>
>I have noticed that Engish sports commentators say "sikth."  I find
>this error (if it is one) to be annoying out of all proportion with
>its seriousness.  It makes them sound as if their tongues are swollen 
>or they have dry mouths or something.


I've never heard that one here in Cleveland.  The "fifth", certainly.  My
mother (New York) says that all the time, followed by a self-correction.  I
think in a hurry I say "six" for "sixth", with a bit more sputtering on the
"x" than I would use if I -meant- "six". 

But a lot of times you'll hear people slow down or stop and carefully -get
it right- before continuing with normal speech.  These are obviously
difficult words. 

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:39:47 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <frank2.21@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>, frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
> Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
> pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
> commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	
> 
> I'd guess this has something to do with them phonotactics thingies.
> 

I have noticed that Engish sports commentators say "sikth."  I find
this error (if it is one) to be annoying out of all proportion with
its seriousness.  It makes them sound as if their tongues are swollen 
or they have dry mouths or something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne Epp                                               epp@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: yholbroo@nyx.cs.du.edu (Yash Holbrook)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 12:49:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.203635.3839@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>Can anyone shed some light on how the dreadful usage of the word "axe" in
>place of "ask" ever got started?  Is there any linguistin explanation as
>to why the s and k sounds get reversed in many inner-city dialects?

In my facsimile _Canterbury Tales_ "axe" is the verb "ask."  I can't recall
the lines I found that in, but I'll look.  

-Yash
From: cen@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Date: 16 Aug 92 11:10:19 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620


 mgfrank@avernus.com (Marc G. Frank) writes:
> I've been thinking of buying a few supermarket chains just so I can
> actually see signs that say "7 items or fewer."

Marks & Sparks have changed two lanes to "Eight Items or Fewer" here. & the
clientele of this particular store is cultured enough not only to demand
grammatical perfection, but also to observe the ruling. Or maybe they are
proficient in both English and Mathematics! wow!!

Tanaqui 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 16:58:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.163433.6659@midway.uchicago.edu> goer@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>
>>> Actually, when I'm feeling lonely and isolated in my brilliance, I enjoy
>>> looking down on the poor fools who aren't privy to the mysteries of the
>>> cultured dialects of English (which are, after all, closer to that Pla-
>>> tonic ideal of language we all know exists somewhere it the higher realms).
>>> I vote that we just let the checkout lines be, and keep it our little secret.
>>          !!!!!!!!!                                         !!!!!
>>
>>Why Richard, who *are* these "we" & "our" you refer to?
>
>This was a mean-spirited piece of sarcasm, and I'm sorry I posted it.  I
>was just getting a bit annoyed at the spurious elitism manifest in a lot of
>recent postings.  All too often people err either in denying the importance
>of a standard communication medium, or in thinking that this expediency
>somehow imparts to them "culture" or intellectual superiority.  Do you think
>I should have added smileys?

No, you should have pointed out that "8 items or less" is flat-out
*correct.*  And idiomatic.  And long-standing usage.  And standard.

Roger
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Writing
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:43:29 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <3812@keele.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>When reading a translated novel yesterday I came across the Americanism
>"x writes y" and sighed as is my wont. On the next page though to my
>surprise I found "x
>writing TO y". Is the translator being inconsistent, or does American
>usage really differ with the form of the verb like this? If so can
>anyone explain why?

Why what?  Why the translator uses both?  

Variety, I expect.  No, there's no semantic difference between the two;
and some people sometimes say one, sometimes the other.  Those who use
both may indeed use one in a particular situation:  "I wrote to him
yesterday"/"I wrote him that I would arrive tommorow."

Most likely the translator was being "inconsistent" in order to mirror
actual usage.

Roger

PS: why were you sighing?
From: segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Guesstimates
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:58:20 GMT
Organization: University Of Manchester (Institute of Technology)

I don't know the origin of the word, but I suppose the origin is the obvious one.

Interesting there's a lecturer here who uses this kind of "dissociation" (from
the "dissociated press" function of gemacs) all the time. I think his favourite
is *platently* as in "that's platently obvious, Simon!".

The questions this begs are:

1. Is there a name for this kind of formation? "Dissociation" isn't really good
   enough is it.

2. What other's are there out there? I'll try and remember some of the gems from
   the guy here, but it's going to be hard.

"Answers on a postcard to ..."

+------------------------------------------------------------+
|                   INTEGRVM NON SARCIENDVM                  |
+------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+
| Simon Read             |  s-mail:        | v-mail:         |
|                        |                 |                 |
| aka edd the duck       |  Room MB/C25    |                 |
| nka Bart Simpson       |  Computation    | +44 61 200 3312 |
+------------------------+  UMIST          |                 |
| e-mail:                |  Manchester     | +44 61 442 3031 |
|                        |  M60 1QD        |                 |
| Simon.Read@umist.ac.uk |  Great Britain  |                 |
+------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca (Chris Camfield)
Subject: Re: The subjunctive
Organization: Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:58:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.145155.26402@athena.mit.edu> dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
>In article <BsvEqn.MrC@wpi.WPI.EDU>,
>padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:
>>Exactly. I assume that in the indicative we would say "God saves the queen",
>>but the form of the verb seems to be a command as in "God clean Your
>>room" or something.
>>
>>Of course, we seem to be missing commas.
>
>As in "Here be dragons"?  [Sorry, Mark.]
>
>
>>And exactly what are we saving the Queen from? ("Oh, no! The Queen's
>>canoe is about to go over the falls! God, please save the Queen!!").
>>What is the construction SUPPOSED to mean?
>
>Oh, the treasonous images!  As for your question, think of the
>phrase as:
>		May God save the Queen.
>	as in:
>		May you live in interesting times.
>	or:
>		May your productivity grow and your carpal tunnels prosper.
>
>Does that help?
>
>
>>[...] for not knowing the proper terminology for "command form"
>
>Lauren will call this tacky (or worse) but the word you want is "imperative."

It seems to me that it's a third-person imperative.  (Ah, thank goodness
for Latin - without it I would know 0 grammar!)  One of the most famous
examples of the construction is "fiat lux" which means, as most people
(I hope!) know, means "let there be light".

So I guess "God saves the queen" would mean, expanded, "Let God save the
queen should she come into any danger".

Who said Latin was a (useless and) dead language?  Fred, I know, but that's
another story...
-- 
"Even as we speak the dirty creature springs a nasty surprise" -- Split Enz
  __  __     __      __
 /   /_/ /  /_/ /\  /_/ /|/  aka Chris Camfield (chrisc@debra.dgbt.doc.ca)
/_/ / / /_ / / /_/ / / / /   Play Akropolis! Telnet to 143.229.1.27 6666
From: epp@mala.bc.ca (Lorne Epp)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer (supermarkets)
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:52:38 -0700
Organization: Malaspina College

In article <2955@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU>, met@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Meteorology General) writes:
> 
> My suggestion :   Up To ? items, where ? is (7,8,12,15) as suits the
> store.  

Does "up to 10" mean "fewer than 10," or "10 or fewer?"  I honestly don't
know.

On a (barely) related note:  With my last paycheck I got a voucher that
was to be redeemed "after August 10th."  I patiently waited until the 11th
before turning it in.  It turned out that I could have redeemed it on the 
10th.

> Mick
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne Epp                                               epp@mala.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert)
Subject: Re: Puns
Organization: Universitaetsrechenzentrum, Heinrich-Heine-Universitaet, Duesseldorf
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:07:43 GMT

In article <pjh.713788281@nessi> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:

>TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert) writes:
>
>>In article <pjh.713703937@nessi> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:
>
>>>BTW I am well known around here for being a punster - I suppose the
>>                                             ^^^^^^^
>>>people I spoke to were "expecting" it to be a pun.
>
>>Could anybody help me with the correct female form of "punster" -
>>is it "punstress" (or "pun-stress"), or perhaps "pundette"?
>
>What is wrong with punster? I am female and used that term to describe
>myself. I find it unnecessary and even somewhat annoying when people
>contrive to invent "feminine" forms for words which don't have them.
>Similarly, I find it a little silly when people try to coin
>"non-gender specific" terms for things for which there are pefrectly
>addequate names already as in the waiter/waitress/waitron discussion.
> [remarks about engineers deleted]
>
>I apologise if this seems like a personal flame - it is not intended
>as such. It is just my response to the whole thread I have been
>reading over the past week and which I have so far not replied to.
>Your question just pushed the button which motivated me to respond. I
>apologise also for going off into a tirade about it.

I'm sorry that I didn't make it clear that my remark was ironical -
in view of the longish threads on male/female forms, which I nevertheless
enjoyed (and which weren't ever all too serious, were they?) I
couldn't resist. I did not mean to criticize.

Smileys and ";-)"'s are not very popular with a.u.e folks (for the
reasons see the special thread on this subject), so I deliberately
didn't include any and saved them instead for the less (or fewer?)
bright days to come.

I'd like to defend, however, the discussions about gender-neutral
and -specific terms; it seems that there is a clash between the
inherited structure of the language and the feelings of (a
considerable part of) its present users, and nobody has come up
with a practical and viable solution yet.

I am curious to see whether and how English (and related languages)
will evolve to resolve this clash; in the meantime I'll lean back,
smile, and enjoy the occasional pun ...
--
[I would dedicate this posting to all gender-specific readers of
this newsgroup - if I only knew how it is done.]
--
Detlef Lannert      DC3EK      E-Mail: tsos@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
"Ab morgen wird gearbeitet."
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6777 sci.lang:6614
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Question about ASCII IPA
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:01:45 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble

tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>:    F) voiceless bilabial fricative
...
>The /V/ is the sound in Spanish "uva" /'u Va/ or cabe /'ka Ve/.  You can
>think of it as a cross between a "b" and "v".  These things aren't too
>hard to decode: use both lips (bilabial), blow air through without
>stopping (fricative), and rattle your vocal cords (voiced).  Remove the
>last trait for the /F/.  I'm sure there are some languages with an /F/ but 
>I can't remember any right now.

This seems to be exactly the way I pronounce `wh' in English words
like `why' and `which'.  I've always been puzzled by renderings of
such words as (h)w, since neither `w' nor `hw' seems right to me.

Writing it as /F/ reminds me of the English schoolteacher in the
classic Irish-language novel "An B\'eal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) by
Flann O'Brien.  He asks each of the Irish-speaking schoolchildren,
"Phwat is yer nam?"  (To which the universal answer is "Jams
O'Donnell, sor.")

,
Eamonn
From: perry@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: questions questions
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:39:13 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club


A few questions for the English gurus:

1) Which is correct:

"To a large degree"
	-or-
"to a great degree"

 Which adjective is correct? Why?

2) Which is correct:

"I went to the store which sold bread."
	-or-
"I went to the store that sold bread."

   I am interested in the rules for when to use which vs. that.

3) Which spelling is correct and from where did the phrase come?

"Speak your piece."
	-or-
"Speak your peace."

Can you back up your answer historically?  I have seen it written both ways
recently.

4) Finally, is it (still?) incorrect to pronounce the 't' in often?


Perry

perry@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Someone kicked my Donkey...
Date: 13 Aug 92 09:18:09 GMT
	<SLAGLE.92Aug11235523@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>
	<86011@netnews.upenn.edu>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu's message of 12 Aug 92 18:28:43 GMT

In article <86011@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:

> In article <SLAGLE.92Aug11235523@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:

>>The horse kicked an ass.
>>The horse kicked one of the asses.
>>The horse behaved like an ass.

> More asininity.

I get no kick from champing, et cetera, and then a bit.
Col', very col'.  But any port in a stern.
Don't be cruel.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: Puns
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 00:19:37 GMT

In article <pjh.714048816@nessi>, pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:
> 
> Oh dear, crawl, crawl. I appear to have put my foot in it somewhat. I
> must confess that I have missed most of the beginning and the middle
> of the thread so I offer a most abject apology if I overreacted. May I
> be allowed back into the "brotherhood" of a.e.u. again.... please?

Actually, it's a siblinghood.  But welcome back anyway.

Peter
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: pundette
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:41:31 GMT
	<SLAGLE.92Aug11234521@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>
	<1992Aug12.124728.21828@athena.mit.edu>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: dks@athena.mit.edu's message of 12 Aug 92 12:47:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.124728.21828@athena.mit.edu>, dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:

> Why not "stander"?

Because waiter has an established meaning that says what I
want it to mean.  It has no necessarily masculine
connotation, except in so far as the derivative distinction
has later been made for females.  Despite the occasional
uses of phrases like "lady lawyer," I think that a lawyer
may be of either gender, as may a doctor, tinker, tailor,
and candlestick maker.  The problem with server is that it
sounds contrived, it describes only a small part of what a
good waiter does, and it is utterly unnecessary.  

So what's wrong with waiter?  Nothing that I can make out.
I can see the problem with masculine pronouns and such,
but I can't see how that problem applies here.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6556 sci.lang:6509