HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Verbal Diarrhea
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:21:56 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <a7739126@owlsoft.hacktic.nl> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>I've just subscribed to this list and read two messages up to now.
>Seems that the active people here enjoy calling each other liars,
>twisting each others position and telling each other to shut up.

    On the positive side, even those who form an opinion on the basis 
    of two or fewer articles can now look good in comparison!
>
>There is a list for people with verbal diarrhea. it's called Words-L.
>
>---
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>              Frans Hoffman - fhoffman@owlsoft.hacktic.nl
>                  Y:\DOS Abort? Retry? Fail? Recycle!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the money" Deep Throat
Disclaimer: Other opinions are mine only
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Canadian UUCP Map Coordinator)
Subject: Re: Putsch or coup?
Organization: University of Toronto
Date: 5 Jan 93 04:33:34 GMT

In article <1991Aug21.221546.3250@newshost.anu.edu.au> cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes:
>
>I just LOVE the way the mass media and Western heads of Government
>enthuse over mass movements bringing down "reactionary regimes"
>through action on the streets. They sang a different tune when 
>similar mass action on the streets overthrew de Gaulle's 
>Government in France and helped defeat U.S. aggression against
>Vietnam in the late 1960s and early 1970s. No doubt they
>....

I'm not sure which mass action on the streets you're referring to.
Thanks the so-called peace demonstration in the U.S., the Vietnamese
communists could have a free hand in taking over a country and wrecking
it with their stupid ideology. Wake up, Albert! Do you know that 
the victors in Vietnam are the most hardline communists in the world?
Even now they're still clinging to Communism whereas their former
bosses have to admit that it's corrupt and unworkable.

And they succeeded in taking over Vietnam not by "mass movements" but
by tanks, artillery, etc... Every time they took over city people
tried to flee the other way. And when they took over the whole
country, everyone tries to leave!
From: 055434@uottawa.bitnet (Sean Maguire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Warning for kill files purposes:  Argic Posting
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:06:59 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

To:           "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@INDYCMS>
 <zuma!sera@PRESTO.IG.COM>

In the above noted-message, our favorite multi-poster (Are you still going in
news.admin.policy?) wrote:

"...and I will continue to humiliate and expose you and your criminal handlers
in public via 141MB of publicly available scholarly sources, eyewitness
accounts...   ^^^^^

Is that how much stuff you have?  I've been on this list for some time, and
I think I've read all 141 MB of your "sources".  And I'm still not "convinced".
What would interest me much more would be if you entered into some dialogue
                                                                   ^^^^^^^^
with any one of your many detractors, such as Lance Visser or David Davidian.
If there really is a person behind all of this, I'd really like to hear from
him/her rather than from what is clearly been an AI program since "Mutlu"
"died".  (More) recent proof of this was in a post from "Argic" which looked
like it was relevent to a debate on bilingualism (Bilingualism is a good thing)
where someone had mentioned Armenia in passing (something along the lines of
there being few Russians in Armenia, even at the height of the U.S.S.R.) and
the AI program immediately picked up the line with Armenia in it and began to
toss out some of the 141MB that we've all come to know and despise.

As I said above, if there is a person behind this lame AI program, all I have
to say to you is "Come out, come out, wherever you are!"

Sean Maguire
055434@acadvm1.uottawa.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:46:00 GMT

For a single russian individual living in the Baltic States Your ethnic statistics 
is meaningless .
This person does not care wether karelian culture and language are not up to european
standards,or wether there are over 100mln. russians in Europe and he is majority in Europe..
Big deal ! 
He was born in Latvia, his home & job was always there, but You want to displace him because
he is not of your breed, you feel he does not belong there, he is just statistics for you.
The main purpose of all changes in the Baltic states  is to kick ethnic russians out.

Henry.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:52:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <01GT4O8QSG6Q8Y5OCG@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>All of this talk about creating a 'sanitary cordon' around Russia
>is ridiculous. Russia will not be able to preserve itself in its
>current form. It is going to DISINTEGRATE just like the former USSR
>did. So, in the future there will be many 'cordons' criss-crossing
>Russia in all directions. The transition to the market economy makes
>the disintegration of Russia an inevitability.

    Please explain, for the market economy is bringing down
    'cordons' in both North America and Western Europe as we speak.

>of 'Great Russia". But those people forget that the only price for preser-
>ving the empire is totalitarianism. Dictatorship is THE ONLY way to
>prevent Russia from disintegrating. 

    Perhaps, but the Russians have been willing to pay the price,
    at least until recently.

>                                         Economic separatism of Russian
>regions like Siberia will play a much more important role in this process
>than the struglle of national minorities for self-determination.
>Chechnja is only the beginning of the chain reaction that will turn
>Russia into a conglomerate of small Greece-sized countries. And I
>repeat: this is a POSITIVE process. Rusiisans will only benefit from
>that.

    I doubt it.  First, those who choose to stay in the Lebanon-sized
    remnants of Russia would be severely discriminated against.  The rest 
    would end up living in a small, overpopulated Russia that had considerably
    less natural resources (read: $$$) than it does now.

    While the Russians may be willing to let Chechnya go without a fight
    (why would anyone want to have it?), I bet this will not be the case
    with most of the Turkic/Muslim republics, including Tataria.  The 
    fighting will probably start when Russia's Muslims, encouraged by the 
    outcome of the Afgan war, will attempt to secede anyway.  The upcoming
    Russian-Muslim war will be won by the side that will have demonstrated
    the least regard for the human life.
From: BADERTINOVS%NEWS@adminb.rferl.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:32:55 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

From Yury M.:
>it's a nice feeling to be member of Great Nation.

Tell this to the 4O million Russian victims of Stalin's purges
(the figure given by Argumeti i Facti).

How about millions of people who are scrambling to get out of
their Great Country? Most of them would be happy to live in
Barbados or to belong to any other Less-Than-Great nation.

What is there to be proud of anyway? Any nation of over 1OO
million is automatically considered to be 'great.' This,
of course has something to do with being FECUND, rather than
with being particularly talanted or gifted for biological
reasons. Belonging to a numerous nation is just a stupid chance,
not a merit.

In Russia, the cultural contribution of national minorities is
(an was) so great that it is just mind-boggling. My impresiion
is that Russian Jews have contributed much more to the Russian
culture than the Russians themselves. In the West, people know
almost nothing about this. Just a recent example: A few days ago
the great Rudolf Nureyev passed away. Who is Nureyev? Perhaps
the world's greatest ballet dancer was not Russian, as many people
in the West think. Both his mother and father were Tatars.
Garry Kasparov is half-Armenian, half-Jewish. Current US chess
champion Gata Kamsky is also Tatar. Many other famous 'Russians'
are also not Russian. But Russia always takes credit for the
acievments of national minorities. I bet that if some Chechen
suddenly become a world-famous star in some field or another,
he'd automatically considered 'an honorary Russian.'

I noticed that most people who feel very proud to be Russians
suffer from inferiority complex. (This is particularly true of
those Russians who live in the West or have been to a western
country. Russians emigres living in eastern countries usually
have the superiority complex.)

Only an idiot will disagree that Russians are neither superior
nor inferior to any other nation in the world. My advice to
Yury M.: Don't waste your time feeling 'proud'. Try to contribute
something to the progress of humanity so that other people could
be proud of you.

Sabirjan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring)
Subject: Re: One year of YELTSINOMICS!
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:22:26 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1993Jan2.165813.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>
>I would like to start a discussion on the following topic:
>
>Exactly one year ago, January 2. 1992 the prices in Russia were if
>not set totally free, at least raised three- fivefold.

    Make it twentyfold.
>
>It was the start of Yeltsinomics (or Gairadonomics).
>Why did it not succeed?
>Or did it succeed, anyhow?

    Yeltsinomics has been enormously successfull: the ruling elite 
    (the Party, Army, KGB) has managed to stay in power and "privatize"
    (read: assume "legal" ownership of) a significant portion of the 
    Russia's economy.

    Meanwhile, the Russia's sheep, who takes great pride of being
    the most enduring sheep in the world, has remained calm
    while beeng fed near-worthless mix of rubles and vouchers.

>
>Or did some instances (like the central Bank of Russia) sabotage the
>whole reform program?

    Russia's mafia structures are constantly squabbling over who gets
    to "privatize" what. To a casual observer, that may look like a 
    struggle between the "reformers" and the "hard-liners", but it
    is not.

    Consequently, the Russia's "economic reform" will go on regardless 
    of who is in power in Moscow.

>
>Or are these questions posed in a wrong manner?
>
>
>asks
>the observer
>Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
>                   urbs fennorum


Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: hu$wyj spisok reposted
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:27:18 GMT

Thanks Dimitri for a huge dose of durty Russian slang you cordially shared with worldwide netters !
I understand that You probably came from a troubled family
where using dirty slang was a fact of life, but still it would be nice if you had some respect  and consideration for other people, and women particular...

May be I am old-fasion but I still think that your so called x-rated humor does not belong to talk/politics/soviet.

Henry.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Soviet military training
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Jan 93 00:41:15 EST
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv



>In article <01GT1IM6Y24Y8WWYU0@MUVAXJ.RFERL.ORG> "talk.politics.soviet
via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet> Sabirjanwrites:

>>There were many nice guys among them (Chechens).

sure! 

>>Chechens are a proud
>>nation with a strong intellectual capacity. It might be that there
>>are fewer educated people among them. But the reason for that has
>>nothing to do with their intellectual abilities. As you all probably
>>know, because of the russification policy many representatives of
>>national minorities in the former USSR couldn't get their education
>>in their native tongues (especially on the university level).
>>Imagine a young talanted Chechen teenager coming to Groznyi and not
>>being able to continue his study in an institute or a university,
>>because all teaching is in Russian. Even if he is lucky and is
>>admitted to a university, his Russian will not be good enough for
>>succesfully continuing his studies. 

	This is bullshit, on the most part. Caucasians
	I knew from MSU knew Russian well enough, but
	did not care about study: they were admitted
	almost freely.




In article <1993Jan2.232903.4861@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> 
mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) 
answers:

>Just couple of facts :
>- In many colleges (in Moscow, at least) non-Russian speakers participated
>in separate, much easier competiton than Russians (for example, in the
>admission exams  Russians wrote "composition", non-Russian speakers wrote 
>the the text which was read once in their own words; analog to the
>"affirmative actions"for non- Russian speakers did exist in Moscow universityes )
>- In the universities outside Russia discrimination against Russians was
>very common. How this agree with "rusification policy" stated by you ? 


To add my twopence: I studied at Math. dept. (Mekh-Mat)
of Moscow State U. Each year, there were 500 students,
divided on ~20 groups, 30 students in each. In these groups, 
there were about 15 students not from Moscow.
5-6 non-Soviet types: 2-3 blacks, Vietnamese,
Bulgars, (etc.) or Kubans (from Kuba), ones whom I studied with 
were much more able than average students. 
There were about 4-5 Slavonic non-Russians and Balts: 
usually with the same level of abilities as other
students. People from Caucasus and Asia (3-4/group), on the
other hand, were admitted almost without exams.
They were unbelievable stupid, nasty rich dopes,
often with their own cars etc. They did not care about
studying at all, but passed semi-annual exams as there were
almost no students expelled at all.


Resume:
MSU policy of admitting students was highly
discriminating against non-Moscovite Russians in 
favour of Caucasians and other Asians
and (sometimes) Slavonic non-Russians. Jews were in worse
conditions, but most of others (except, probably,
Balts) were admitted more freely.

Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:27:44 GMT

The baltic nationalism is not different from any other forms of nationalism.
You try to put good face on it but the essence of nationalism remains the same:
to drive the different nation & language out from your country.
The means and methods might vary from country to country but the results are the same.
Therefore, there are different forms of ethnic clensing.
All excuses You offered in your posting about the humanity of baltic nationalism,
do not hold the ground.
You better talk to russians and others living in the baltic states, they will tell You
what they feel.
There is no equal opportunity for them in your society so far...
You want to use language to dislodge them.

It is just my personal opinion and some personal experience.I used to live in Uzbekistan and know first hand what local nationalism means: despite the fact that I knew Uzbek language and was born there, I could not compete for better jobs with the
Uzbeks - they were the masters of their republic and I was always discriminated against. When I was leaving the country, some of uzbek burocrats who stamped my documents were smiling and saying in their language to each other: "Allah !
One infedel less".  
As You can see, I do not live in my dreams, just some flashbacks from many years ago.

Henry.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Stereotypes of Soviet Peoples
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:16:02 EST
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <Sorokin.40.726067397@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at> Sorokin@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at (Sorokin Zhenya) writes:

>Still, I can imagine peaceful coexistence of estonians and russians in 
>_democratic_ Russia as well as in democratic Estonia. 
>
>The problem is, that the difference in the life order in islamic and 
>in christian societies is so high, that the peoples assimilate very poorly. 
>Examples are Lebanon, Turks in Germany, and others. There are no examples 
>of the two cultures living together in some mixed state. One of the cultures 
>have to be dominant and define the life order of the whole state, the 
>second being a cultural/ethnic minority. They are simply incompatible, 
>which doesn't mean that one is by definition superior.

	This is wrong: the situation in Christian Georgia
	is not different at all from Chechen state.
	The problem is not with religion (Dudaev is not
	islam fundamentalist anyway). The problem
	is with x-Percian and x-Osman mentality:
	Georgia is not alltogether different from Azeri state,
	while the difference with, say, Armenia is
	profound. I think tha the key is that Armenians
	lost the x-Osman mentality because many of them
	lived in diaspora, eg in America, while, say,
	Greece and Turkey still stay very close
	in most aspects. Remember how similar
	are Greeks' anti-Macedonian flames with Mutlu
	garbage... :) 

	Misha.
From: fhoffman@owlsoft.hacktic.nl (Frans Hoffman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Verbal Diarrhea
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:14:32 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.bitnet>

I've just subscribed to this list and read two messages up to now.
Seems that the active people here enjoy calling each other liars,
twisting each others position and telling each other to shut up.

There is a list for people with verbal diarrhea. it's called Words-L.

---

------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Frans Hoffman - fhoffman@owlsoft.hacktic.nl
                  Y:\DOS Abort? Retry? Fail? Recycle!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Chechens
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:06:50 EST
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <Jan.2.22.02.49.1993.15836@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:

>I guess I hit the proverbial nail on the head !

	Your own words.

>So,if all the minorities started their own 'mafias' a la
>the Chechens, then you'd agree to erect 100 feet brick walls
>around their republics too.

	Mark, you lack the most simple knowledge
	of Chechen politics, and act as you know everything.
	This is very bad. 

	On the question of minorities starting their own mafias:
	do you know what was the main point of Dudaev's
	election program? That every male Chechen of grown
	age will have his own firearms, subsided by goverment.
	At least a gun. Indeed, now each male Chechen
	(starting from 15-18) has a gun, and about each
	big family - its own grenade- or flame-thrower.
	Since Chechens always shoot when are being married,
	they are shooting  each 15-30 minutes in Groznyi
	main square etc. Many people do not go outside
	without mashine gun. There are no laws at all
	which restrict shooting, owing or carrying a weapon,
	regardless of type.

	I am sure that if some other national respublic
	was distributing weapons among population,
	the best way was to build a wall as Seriozha
	proposed. The bigger, the better.

	And please, your incompetent PC attitude
	is very nauseating. 

>It looks like both the Russians like you and the Chechens
>will be very happy. They'll have a high wall with high-voltage
>lines separating them :-)..

	Russian, yes: a huge majority, at least.
	Chechens, no. Dudaev's rating currently is
	very low - much less than 50% of supporters,
	by all accounts. Chechens currently don't want
	to secede (while Dudaev still does). He will
	lose his power soon, many observers say.

>Come one Serega. I'm sure you understood what I was posting
>about. Why the need to blame the 'asiatics' for purported
>missing ingredient in 'Russian character' ? How many 
>centuries must pass, before Russians stop blaming all of
>their shortcomings on the Tatar invasians of hundreds of
>years ago ? Do the Arabs, Iranians, Turks still blame 
>the Timurids  and Genghis-Khanids for all their problems ?

	I agree there - many historians, including
	the famous Lev Gumiliov, believed that Tatar's	
	influence on Russia was highly beneficial.

	Misha.
From: tammet@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Bilingualism - a good cause!
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:30:29 GMT
Organization: Dept. of CS, Chalmers, Sweden

In article <1993Jan11.144156.19664@synapse.bms.com> henry@bms.com writes:
... Stuff deleted ...
>Can You choose freely to emigrate if all your life was spent in Latvia for instance ?
>But suddenly You are no longer wanted there.
>It is not a free choice - it is ethnic clensing.

It is really surprising - either you do not read information contrasting your
personal ideas how the Baltic politics is supposed to look like or you are
somewhy bound on experimenting with a little war-monging campaign of your own?

Ethnic cleansing - good Lord! Even Viznyuk does not claim anything so 
outrageous.

What kind of signs indicating that ethnic cleansing is carried out have
you observed in Baltics? How is the technology supposed to look like?
Can you imagine driving non-Latvians out if there are almost 50% of
non-Latvians in Latvia, and also a huge number of armed-to-teeth Russian
soldiers with obvious sympathies towards those non-Latvians?
   
>I would not be surprised if russians start armed resistance in the Baltic States.
>They have a lot to loose.

Armed resistance to what?

>But at the same time it is golden opportunity for the balts to get rid of russian population.

How? They all doing suicide during the exercises before massive armed
resistance :-?

>So both sides are on the collision course.

You are living in dreams.

Regards,
	Tanel Tammet