HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jslindst@waltari.helsinki.fi (Jouko Lindstedt)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: post-election thoughts
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:38:34 GMT
Organization: Department of General Linguistics, Univ. of Helsinki. Finland

Dear John, you write:

> If a candidate advocates the wholesale slaughter of innocents, how can
> anyone consider voting for him, even if his other views are
> reasonable? Certain kinds of positions should automatically disqualify
> a candidate from consideration by good people.

Well, I sort of agree. But if there were _no_ serious candidates
opposing abortion (and you may soon be in this situation even in the
U.S.), would you abstain from voting? And, do you think Clinton will
actually _promote_ abortion over and above of what would have happened
at any rate?

> If Charles Manson ran for office, would his views on free trade be
> relevant?  Or Adolf Hitler's views on agricultural policy? Or Josef
> Stalin's opinions about environmentalism? Of course not. These men
> held views about killing people which make them completely
> unacceptable as leaders. Note that some of the worst atrocities of the
> twentieth century occurred because the latter two men did achieve
> public office.

I see your point. (Incidentally, you certainly would not have voted
for Hitler even if he had been anti-abortion...)

> In a democratic society, citizens are responsible for choosing the best
> candidate to govern the country. The first and foremost duty of any
> government is to protect the lives of the people falling under its 
> jurisdiction.

Well, this is a legalistic point that doesn't work. Abortions are possible
precisely because unborn babies are _not_ recognized as persons falling
under the jurisdiction of any state; they don't count as citizens. Only
an ethical point of view will work, higher morality, I mean. It is of course
not enough for a politician to be against abortion if s/he doesn't fulfill
some minimal moral requirements besides that. But no doubt Bush does,
so I think I begin to understand why so many American Catholics voted
for him. But you may soon be in the European situation where you really
cannot influence the abortion question by voting... Let's hope that
won't happen.
--

                                     Jouko Lindstedt
                                     
Institutum Slavicum, Universitas Helsingiensis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Department of Slavonic Languages, University of Helsinki
<jslindst@waltari.Helsinki.Fi> or <Jouko.Lindstedt@Helsinki.Fi>
letters: Hallituskatu 11, 00100 Helsinki, Finland
(From Jan 1, 1993: P.O.Box 4, 00014 University of Helsinki, Finland)
fax: +358-0-1912974
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 98yuwono@cua.edu
Subject: Re:      Re: Bellarmine on Galileo
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:56:04 GMT

>In article <921106110555.28e2bb3a@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM>,         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>> Steve,
>> If the data doesn't fit the theory, then the theory must be modified to
>> account for the new data or the data must be reevaluated to see if the
>> proper controls were in place when the data was collected. In a lot of
>> cases, it is the theory that must be expanded on(Newton to Einstein comes
>> to mind). Be that as it may, in today's society, there is ample evidence
>> that women are fully capable of teaching and leading, I guess I'd have
>> to ask for this data of your's which links the decline of the protestant
>> Churches to their ordination of women, to be reevaluated:-) -J.J.
>> (you mean ther are no evangelical churches with women ministers?)

or we can fudge data like some scientists do :-)
 ==============================================================================
* Leonardus K. Yuwono			   *   	
* Internet: 98yuwono@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu   *  
* Bitnet  : 98yuwono@cua.bitnet            *  
**********************************AMDG**************************************** 
 

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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:31:16 -0700
From:         WERLING <awerling@NMSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

On Mon, 2 Nov 1992, Brent Winiger wrote:

> Many of us on this list would tell you, Andrew, that
> we at one time also doubted the existance of God.  I personally will tell you
> that I could not have returned to Christianity had it not been for an ample
> supply of historical evidence for the Christian premises.

I'd be interested in learning of this evidence.

>     Please tell us who you believe Jesus was.

This is what I do believe: Jesus was a thinker, a critic of the Judeaism
of his contemporaries, and one of many people of his day with followers
(disciples) who thought he was the messiah.

Whether or not he really was more holy than common folk is not for me to say.

> According to Scripture, He
> claimed to be God, and convinced many of his contemporaries that he
> indeed was.

Lots of people did the same thing.

> His claim was obviously either true or false and is important enough that it
> should be given very serious consideration by everyone.

Believe me, I have been giving it serious consideration.  Why do you feel
it is so important?  Is it really that fascinating that someone calls
himself God and convinces people that he is?

Did not Charles Manson do something similar?  How about Pat Robertson,
Orrell Roberts, et cetera?

> I think that question
> is in fact, so important, that if a person is in doubt, it greatly out-weighs
> any other concerns he or she may contemplate.

I don't know if this is true in general or not.  I also don't know if it
"should" be.  Maybe it's a completely irrelevant question.


Andrew Werling on Planet Yip   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"Wyoming?  Are you crazy?  I'm not moving to Wyoming.  What's up there?
Marlboro Men?" -- May, in _Fool_For_Love_ by Sam Shepard
From: bishop4559@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: question
Date: 5 Nov 92 11:49:11 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <00962DC2.1C8CE720.4806@swdev.si.com>, "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
> Daniel (bishop4559@ISCSVAX.UNI.EDU)writes:
> 
>>...so women are invalid matter for the sacrament of holy orders.  It's  just a
>>fact - deal with it.
> 
> And when the church finally approves the ordination of women (not *if* - *when*;
> it will happen), how will _you_ deal with it?
> 
> -----------------------------+--------------------------------
>  Brian Tillman

Well Brian, It is very possible that the Catholic Church in the U.S. might do
so, through the NCCB.  It is nice to know that NO national council of bishops
has any authority whatsoever to make any decisions which are binding on all
Catholics.  The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL NEVER APPROVE THE ORDINATION OF
WOMEN!  The holy father has made it quite clear that there needn't be any
arguing the matter, because it is a mute point.  (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia)
*When* the Catholic bishops of America approve the ordination of women, they
will be in FORMAL SCHISM WITH ROME and I will refuse to follow.  And of course,
I'll also be polishing up on my Etruscan!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:06:55 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: dialectic and orthodoxy

Steve B,
Another interesting post on conflicts in Church history. I'm beginning
to sense that there is no compromise position where Catholics are
concerned:-). I guess I can assume that "man is the head of his wife",
God as Father, and the male priesthood cannot be separated into different
"truths", before deciding whether they are indeed true or not. Maybe a
better question is how does the male priesthood effect my or your
salvation? It's obviously an irritating spot in mine:-) -J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 14:36:33 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Cardinal Ratzinger

On Nov 5,  3:22pm, Eric James Ewanco wrote:
} Subject: Re: Nature of List--Fossil
} Excerpts from catholic: 5-Nov-92 Re: Nature of List--Fossil
} waldbill1981@ISCSVAX.UNI (5372)
}
} > I appreciate the liturgy when it is focused on Christ alone and NOT on
} > the community. (As Josef Cardinal Ratzinger recently said, When people
} celebrate the community, they are celebrating nothing.)
}
} More evidence that His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger is full of it and has
} lost sight of the Gospel.
}-- End of excerpt from Eric James Ewanco

	Eric, calm down.  I think the Cardinal is being quoted out of
context.

	FRom what I have seen and read he is very orthodox.  The traditionalists
love him but he doesn't quite take their point of view.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
If it pours before seven, it has rained by eleven.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Travel tips requested
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:28:08 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92110412392916@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET writes:
>We will be traveling between MO and W VA over the week of Thanksgiving.
>If anyone knows of any wonderful places to visit along the way, ie
>Churches, bookstores, *anything* of interest to traveling (almost)
>Catholics, please let me know.

   If you're taking I-64 between St. Louis and Louisville, Kentucky,
you might consider visiting the St. Meinrad Archabbey and seminary.
It is not too far from the interstate, east of Evansville, Indiana.
They also have a bookstore, the home of Abbey Press.  I believe daily
Mass is at 5:00 PM EST.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:02:01 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

Andrew Werling (awerling@nmsu.edu) writes:

>You have perverted my logic.  I did not say solitude is suicidal.  I
>referred to a suicidal solitude.  A specific kind of solitude: one where I
>would be lonely *because* your god in your bible tells me that it's a sin
>for me to love men, even though it is natural for me to love men.

First, _I_ have never claimed to speak for God, telling you what He says is a
sin and what's not.  Others may have.  Make sure you know who is saying what
here.  Second, God is God.  He's mine, he's yours, he's everyone's whether we
choose to recognize and accept him or not.  God is independent of any of us.
Our acceptence of his existence does not affect that he exists and is God.
Third, my real point in what I said is that *nothing* can _drive_ you to
suicide.  Suicide is not an externally-induced event.  Those who suicide do so
because of internal reasons.  It may be despair, it may be psychosis, it may
even be revenge.  Whatever the reason, I personally think suicide is chosen by
the suicidal person.  They are not _driven_ to it.  Suicide is an statement that
God has no power in the particular situation in which the suicide finds him or
herself.  That's something that Christians cannot believe.  God can *always* be
found in *any* situation and his power and grace are always available to those
who choose to reach out for it.

That said, I also think that God loves the suicide dearly.  I've seen people in
situations where they don't know what they're going to do and I've felt sorrow
over how they feel.  How much more would God feel their pain, who loves them so?

Finally, all the above notwithstanding, I trust that every sincere Christian
will live the life he or she feels is true to the spirit of the Gospels and the
person of Christ.  I don't feel it is up to me to decide that for you.  I think
you must find it for yourself.  What that life will involve and contain is your
choice, not mine.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: 98yuwono@cua.edu
Subject: Re: Bellarmine on Galileo
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:08:36 GMT

Stephen  Barr wrote

>> As a scientist myself, I find this attitude to be extremely
>> reasonable. And it is the attitude of the Church today.
>> If for example "there were a real proof" that, say, 
>> homosexual acts were moral, then the Church would have
>> to be "circumspect" in "explaining passages of scripture
>> that appear to teach the contrary". However, as any 

In science I dont think you try to prove something is correct. 
i.e trying to prove that homesexual acts were moral is not the way to
go since thats not how science is done. The way science is done
is creating and experiment that try not to prove it, but to disprove
it. and you keep on testing until it was  disproved.  If your hypothesis
standsup  to the experiement then the hyptohesys may become law.
(well i hope sb else can articulate this better Than I am). 
During Bellarmine times I dont think the scientific method are the same, 
although I believe that Bellarmine is actually very sympathetic to 
Galileo's view. 

Galileo i believed is not condemned soley because of
heliocentricity( since It wasnt an original idea anyhow and 
Copernicus I dont think was ever condemned by the church.) 

I think the good that comes out of Galileo 's case
is a realization that Scriptures are not  trying to teach 
science. 

On A side note , Cardinal Bellarmine A jesuit, maybe credited
as the fAther of Democracy.  His writing is believed to 
influence Thomas Jefferson  Somewhat.

leo


 ==============================================================================
* Leonardus K. Yuwono			   *   	
* Internet: 98yuwono@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu   *  
* Bitnet  : 98yuwono@cua.bitnet            *  
**********************************AMDG**************************************** 
 

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Question
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:12:19 GMT

In article <Pine.3.03.9211042016.C24412-a100000@dante> WERLING <awerling@NMSU.EDU> writes:
>
>Got a personal letter from someone telling me I seem to be on this list to
>flame Christianity and that my mode of conversation is out of line in this
>forum (my questioning God's existence or the validity of the notion of
>sin).  Only this one person has told me this, but it would be dishonest
>and foolish of me to continue unless I check it out with the rest of you.

If you have a sincere desire to find out what Catholics believe, thought
this forum may not always be an adequate or accurate source, I think your
presence is perfectly appropriate.  I cannot judge whether you have a 
sincere desire to find out what Catholics believe, and so whether you meet
the antecedent of this hypothetical.  Only you in the honest of your own
heart can judge as best you can whether you do.

Peace,
John

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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:08:50 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Nov. 9

    		    Monday, November 9, 1992
		 Dedication of St. John Lateran

II Chronicles 5:6-10, 13-6:2  		           Psalm 122
I Corinthians 3:9-13, 16-17  		           John 2:13-22

	      	      	THE FAMILY OF FAMILIES

"Everyone, however, must be careful how he builds.  No one can lay a
 foundation other than the one that has been laid, namely Jesus Christ."
 --Corinthians 3:10-11

    Today we celebrate the liberation of the Church in the early fourth
century.  After Constantine was converted to Christianity, he changed from
persecuting the Church to providing for the construction of the first
Christian church buildings.  For the first three hundred years of
Christianity, all churches met in homes.  But with the end of persecution
against the Church, it became possible to build a structure large enough to
contain a community of several home communities.  This church was named after
St. John the Baptizer and was situated on the Lateran property.  This was a
big step forward in promoting the unity of the Church.  So today's feast is a
celebration of liberation based on conversion leading to unity among the
Christian communities.

    Today's feast teaches us that:
  1. liberation is based not on independence  and isolation but Christian
	 community.
  2. there is no liberation without conversion.
  3. the basic unit of the Church is the small, home-based community.
  4. these basic communities need to be united with each other.
  5. the Spirit makes us one by calling us to obey authority, especially
         the authority of the Pope.

    What happened in the former Soviet union in the last few years is something
like what happened to the Church in the early 300s.  This liberation continues
to be a cause for joy.  Celebrate the anniversary of the Dedication of St.
John Lateran.


Prayer:  Father, may those who have given their lives to Jesus be "of one
	 mind and one heart."

-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: FAQ for Catholic Mailing list
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 06:07:40 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> On Nov 4, 10:58am, "(Edward J. Branley)" wrote:
> } Subject: FAQ for Catholic Mailing List
> }
> } There are other things we could add, like mail order sources for books, mus
> } etc.  As I said, I'm willing to do the compilation and editing, but I'll ne
> } input from you all to make it work.
> }-- End of excerpt from "(Edward J. Branley)"
>
> Ed,
>       Though I haven't posted it yet, I am working on a 'Catholic
> Resources' FAQ composed of publishers and periodicals.
>

That's fantastic.  I'll be looking for it.  I'm working on a set of basic
questions that I'll post here in a week or so for everyone's review.  No
answers, just the questions.  Then we can decide which belong in a FAQ and
which don't, and answer those that do.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (scharle)
Subject: Re: question
Reply-To: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (scharle)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:14:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.114912.8436@iscsvax.uni.edu>, bishop4559@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
|> In article <00962DC2.1C8CE720.4806@swdev.si.com>, "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
|> > Daniel (bishop4559@ISCSVAX.UNI.EDU)writes:
|> > 
|> >>...so women are invalid matter for the sacrament of holy orders.  It's  just a
|> >>fact - deal with it.
|> > 
|> > And when the church finally approves the ordination of women (not *if* - *when*;
|> > it will happen), how will _you_ deal with it?
|> > 
|> > -----------------------------+--------------------------------
|> >  Brian Tillman
|> 
|> Well Brian, It is very possible that the Catholic Church in the U.S. might do
|> so, through the NCCB.  It is nice to know that NO national council of bishops
|> has any authority whatsoever to make any decisions which are binding on all
|> Catholics.  The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL NEVER APPROVE THE ORDINATION OF
|> WOMEN!  The holy father has made it quite clear that there needn't be any
|> arguing the matter, because it is a mute point.  (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia)
|> *When* the Catholic bishops of America approve the ordination of women, they
|> will be in FORMAL SCHISM WITH ROME and I will refuse to follow.  And of course,
|> I'll also be polishing up on my Etruscan!
   
    You say this quite definitively (pun intended).  Can you cite the
statement, with references, which has the authority of infallibility,
that this is the case?  This is not a rhetorical question.  If you
have it, fine, but if not ...

    Quite recently, we had a little discussion of how the Galileo
verdict was not a matter of infallibility.  And that is quite right.
"Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia" is not always the case.  I will concede
that one should not lightly take issue with the Pope or other 
authority on such things as are not infallible, but one should also 
remember to make the distinction.

-- 
Tom Scharle                |cm65n6@irishmvs(Bitnet)
Room G003 Computing Center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu(Internet)
University of Notre Dame  Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539 USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:44:29 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Bellarmine on Galileo

Why are conservative Catholics such voluminous writers:-)? Oh well,...

John O:
Why do we need a Church law which proscribes the ordination of women if
God will never call them anyway? Are there not steps along the way to
ordination which would weed out a person who wasn't truely called
regardless of sex? My view is that this proscription is simply a way
for some to control what they think is God's intent.

Steve B:
Yes, I agree that most(if not all) of the circumstantial evidence is stacked
against the ordination of women, but I'll still choose what's behind
curtain A :-)

Marty:
Evolution, the evolution of life, the evolution of the Church; God evolves
everything over time. My belief is that the ordination of women is just a
natural step in the evolution of the Church.

Now what was the question:-)? -J.J.