From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: God's Lil' Buddy
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:56:13 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Dec16.213221.6015@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
|
||You screwed up again, Pitts.  In chronological order:
||
||1.  sieferman said that the bible contradicts the physical universe.
||2.  You state that the bible _doesn't_get_ specific on the physical 
||    universe, and you ask sieferman for specific instances.
||3.  sieferman provides specific instances.
||4.  You try to start a debate about whether or not miracles occur.
||
||YOU HAVEN'T ADDRESSED HIS POINT.  AGAIN.
|
|/(rpitts)
|/I think you are the one who wants to debate - note your capital letters.
|
|What?
|
|Capital letters don't indicate a desire to debate.  They indicate a desire
|to force you to address the question that sieferman asked.  Which, true
|to your evasive form, you have not done yet.  You ask people to believe
|you, to trust in your god, and you won't answer questions about it. 
|Why should anyone put any confidence in you when you won't answer questions?

What?

I've answered the questions and will do so again - could it be that you
misunderstood or maybe you fail to understand my responses?  Could it
be you don't know the Bible that you try to use against me?  Or is it that
you refuse to come to Jesus to whom the Scriptures point?

|Would you buy a car from a man who wouldn't tell you anything about the
|car?  I don't think so.

If you were a saleman, would you continue to deal with a customer who 
was agressive and verbally harassing you?

|/(rpitts)
|/The question about the way the environment we live is is not
|/said to normally have talking bushes, celestial orbit halts, etc.
|/The Bible doesn't say these are the norm.  I did ask if he 
|/presupposed that these could not happen?
|
|You still haven't addressed his point.  Sieferman said that the bible
|contradicts the physical universe.  Besides examples like halting
|the sun & moon, there are other things related to age of the earth,
|evolution, etc. where the bible contradicts the physical universe.
|
|Again:  explain how the bible can be true when it contradicts the
|physical universe.

Again, do you mean that you completely understand the laws of physics
and you know that things can't happen except the way they 'normally'
happen?

THE POINT IS THAT YOU (and maybe Sieferman) SEEM TO "KNOW" THAT MIRACLES 
CANNOT OCCUR AND SO YOU SAY THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.

I'm saying that the Bible doesn't say that the physcial universe doesn't
generally function with events like the sun stopping, but when it has
happened it is recognized as God intervening into the events of mankind.  

With respect to evolution - the Bible tells us that God created what
we now live among and is not the result of some random process.

On the age of the universe, there is more than one school of thought
on this.  The two I know of and to which I give some credence both fall way 
short of the billions of years required by evolutioary thought.  I tend
toward the young earth, but the big part of this that God did it and
was actively involved in the process.  Do you believe God was involved
in the creation of the earth?

||/(rpitts)
||/Are you a better example than these people?????
||/Why can't I use this example - it fits the situation.  
||
||Sorry.
||
||No it doesn't.  In the first place, according to your own religion,
||it is impossible for any man to "fully know" Christ.  That is supposed to
||be a lifelong journey, a spiritual walk and growing process.  
|
|
|/(rpitts)
|/It is a life long process.  
|
|So you admit that it is impossible to fully know God, since every day
|you are learning something new about God, correct?
|
|If so, then explain your statement that the apostles "fully knew" Christ.

The term fully know God is my own - the intent is that once one comes
to Jesus and persists in living for and with Him and knows that he
alone is eternal life and the only way to the Father, then I don't
see how one could turn away.  The point being that mere association with
the name of Jesus or his church doesn't merit nor win whole hearted 
devotion to Him.  [That is the point of incident I related from the
gospels, when all but the disciples left Jesus - they were convinced
of who he was and is.]

This is also the point, I believe, of the parable of the sower.

|/(rpitts)
|/However, there are examples (the parable
|/of the sower) where the Bible speaks of people with different
|/responses to the Word of God.  
|
|So what?  
|
|We are not talking about different responses.  We are talking
|about your statement that the apostles did not leave because they fully
|knew Christ.  Your statement is *all* we are talking about; nothing else.

Oh.  The Apsotles said to Jesus, after the others left, that they were
not going to leave, for He alone had the words/keys to eternal life
and there was no one else to turn to, because of that.

|TRUE OR FALSE:  You stated that the apostles did not leave Christ because
|they fully knew him.  
|TRUE, you did state that.

Agreed.

|TRUE OR FALSE:  The apostles did in fact leave him.  
|TRUE, they did leave Christ, at the crucifixion.

Did they leave hime or did they just scatter and were wondering what
was to happen next.  They all seem to be in one group, except for
Thomas, the day of Jesus resurrection.  Mary and some others went
to anointed Jesus' body - they didn't seem to have left Him.

|Therefore, your statement that it is impossible to leave Christ once
|you fully know him is an incorrect statement.  The apostles are proof that 
|this can happen.

Again - this depends on whether they LEFT as far as the faith is concerned
or they only physcially left.  They all seemed to be back pretty quickly,
didn't they?  The big group that left Jesus, when only the disciples
remain, were said to no longer walk with Him, I do believe.

|Either that, or your original statement that they "fully knew" him is
|an erroneous statement.  Which is it, Pitts?

Ok, Sarver, which is it? They did fully know him, for they knew he
alone had the words of eternal life, but yet they did scatter at his
death.  Is it impossible to you for both of these to not be contradictory?
Is it said that they no longer walk with Jesus?  No, for they are the
ones through whom the church began at Pentecost.

|/(rpitts)
|/Some it doesn't stick with very
|/well, because the Devil steals it.  Some produce a lot of fruit,
|/because they persist in the Word they heards.  This progression
|/is what I was referring to - once one persists and so holds to
|/the Truth, I don't see how they can turn from it.
|
|Again, you are wrong.  The scriptures state that while Christ was still
|on earth, he gave his disciples power to do miracles in his name, to the
|12 and also to the 70.  They came back and reported to Christ about the
|miracles that they did, and Christ said (words to the effect), "Behold, 
|I saw Satan falling as a lightning bolt from heaven."  Obviously, these
|disciples were "producing fruit", as they were ministering and carrying
|the gospel in Christ's name.  Yet, every last one of them left Christ
|at the crucifixion.  

Again - they were all together in one place, after Jesus' death and burial,
and they seemed to be eager see if he rose from the dead, when Mary told
them about it.

The gospels, which were written after the resurrection, often say
that the disciples did not understand such and such - and this often
had to do with Jesus' death.  They didn't understand everything at the
time.

However, as I believe I've said before, the coming of the Holy Spirit 
marked a new stage in the process.  The Holy Spirit lives in those who
follow Christ - The Holy Spirit fills us and gives us power from on high.  

|SO:  obviously your statement ("I don't see how they can turn from it")
|is nonsense.  Here you have another example of disciples that were fully
|engaged in Christ's ministry, and they also left.

No, it is not nonsense - I know in my own life that the more I've gotten
to know Jesus the less likely I would be to turn away.  The parable of
the sower points to persisting and holding to the word as being part
of the requirements of being a fruitful Christian.

|/(rpitts)
|/Even the example I gave, has the Apostles tellsing Jesus that He
|/alone has the words of life and that there is no one else to turn to.
|
|Then why did they leave him at the crucifixion if they truly believed
|that, Pitts?  You still haven't answered this.

It was prophecied that they would be scattered - does this only mean
to you that they left the faith?  Peter denied he knew Jesus, but
does that mean he didn't know him?  NO.  Could it not mean that Peter
was afraid and so denied know Christ for his own safety?

|(me)
||In the second place, the example is flawed.  Even Peter denied Christ 
||three times (after the incident above which you mention).  But according 
||to *you*, he (and the other apostles) "fully knew Christ", and that's why
||they stayed with him while the other disciples left.  Obviously, they did not
||"fully know" Christ, since they could abandon and deny him at the 
||crucifixion.
|
|
|/(rpitts)
|/Yes, Peter did deny he knew Christ - in fact, Jesus had told Peter
|/that he would be tested by Satan and that AFTER he was restored
|/he would be of great help to the others - and he was.
|
|You missed it again, Pitts.  If Peter "fully knew Christ" as you claim
|he did, then it would have been impossible for him to fall away.  Yet, 
|he did in fact deny Christ.  

Again, the coming of the Holy Spirit marked a new era in boldness for
the church, including Peter and all who believe, for the Holy Spirit
indwells us who do believe.  Also, scattering doesn't equal forsaking.

|So which explanation is it?
|
|a.  Peter did *not* fully know Christ, and thus was susceptible to 
|    falling away, or 
|b.  Even people who fully know Christ and produce fruit can *still*
|    fall away.
|
|It has to be one or the other.

Oh, maybe it is only one of these, but I think not.  Peter was tempted
and failed, but this doesn't equal falling away.  Falling away involves
forsaking Jesus and not just failing during a time of temptation.  Jesus
told Peter that he would be sifted as wheat by Satan, but Jesus knew
too that Peter would be back strong and would so strengthen the rest.

|(me)
||Ergo, your example is a bad one, even by your own bible's standards.
|
|/(rpitts)
|/Ergo, what do you know about the Bible?  
|
|Evidently a hell of a lot more than you do.

Hmm.  Have you come to Jesus of Nazareth, the fullness of God in bodily
form, as the Scriptures so point you?  Jesus said many people study
the Scriptures for in them they think they have eternal life, but they
REFUSE to come to Him and have life, for that is where they point.

|/(rpitts)
|/The disciples all along
|/were have said (even in the midst of miracles occurring) that they
|/were amazed at who this man Jesus was.  They even did it again, after
|/they supposedly realized or thought they knew who he was.  Often,
|/it says that the disciples didn't understand (as written afterwards)
|/what Jesus was referring to.  
|
|
|So what? 
|
|This may be what the scripture said. But this isn't what YOU said.  

I guess this has nothing to do with our conversation then or does it?

|What YOU said was this:
|
||/(Rpitts)
||/|>I have a hard time see how someone could fully-know Christ and
||/|>then turn away from him.  The apostles had this happen in there
||/|>presence - all of the other disciples left Jesus - and Jesus 
||/|>asked them if they wanted to leave, too.  They did not, for they
||/|>fully knew him.
|
|So, is your personal theological explanation contradicted by the bible?
|It would appear so.  
|
|You seem to think that their point of understanding happened after the 
|resurrection.  If that is true, then the above incident happened
|(disciples leaving Christ in front of the apostles) *before* the 
|resurrection.  Therefore, since the resurrection hadn't happened yet,
|it was impossible for the apostles to fully know Christ yet.

Why?

Jesus was with them - if they were following Him, then they fully knew 
Him as they were able.  There eyes were opened after the resurretion
and so are ours, when we come to Him in submission and give our lives
over to the control of the Holy Spirit's leading.

|(me)
||And, according to Hebrews 10, it is quite possible for someone to be a true
||believer and fall away.  You seem to believe that no true believer could
||fall away, becuase if they do, then that obviously proves they weren't a true 
||believer to begin with.  You are categorically wrong.  And this is the
||point that sieferman was desperately trying to get you to address, the
||point that you have been evading.
|
|/(rpitts)
|/I think the Bible points to the fact that people can turn away and this
|/is what the warning in Hebrews 6 and 10 speaks to.
|
|Then how do you explain your statement that people cannot fall away if
|they are true believers?  

There are different soils (or levels of responsitivity) and that is the
point of my using the parable of the sower.

|The bible clearly says that they can; do you know more than the bible does? 
|Are you trying to re-write Hebrews 10?

To which verse in Hebrews 10 are you referring?  The classic text is in
Hebrews 6, but Hebrews 10 has some info, too.  Give the verse and we will
look at it.

|/(rpitts)
|/You seemed to have put me in a predefined box.
|
|Your beliefs have put you in a box.  All I am doing is showing you how
|tight the box is.  That is the fault of the box, not me.

Maybe your view of the box is tight, but it isn't really as small
as you think.  You have read, however, that narrow is the way that
leads to eternal life and few there are that find it, but broad is
the way that lead to destruction and many go down that wide road.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu      |  Love and Worship God, the Creator of the Earth. 
                          --|--   
Pro-Life!              -|-  |  -|-    Come bow down in worship, let us kneel
Pro-Responsibility!     |   |   |     before the Lord Our Maker.  Psalm 95:6