From: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics,soc.motss
Subject: Re: "HIV-infected molest suspect outrages town"
Date: 14 Dec 92 06:27:53 GMT
Reply-To: flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham)
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bendenweyr

In article <13577@optilink.COM>, cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
|> Repressed Memories: Things Are Probably Worse Than This
|> 
|> 	[Molestation victims frequently repress the memories
|>	 of the molestation to protect themselves]
|> 
|> Why is this relevant?  At various times in the last year, I have
|> pointed to the large number of admissions of child sexual abuse
|> received by homosexuals posting in soc.motss, and suggested that
|> there might be some connection between the child sexual abuse and
|> their current sexual orientation -- and the ready response from
|> other homosexuals was, "I wasn't molested, so there can't be
|> a connection."

You need to explain more about the nature of the denial.  For instance,
I have very clear memories of my childhood.  I remember a lot of good,
a lot of bad, but there are no areas in my past that I am afraid to look
into.  I do not remember any instance of molestation.  In fact, I was
quite ignorant of the mechanisms of any sexual function until I was
taught about them in school.  How can you dispute this absence in my
memory as anything other than the fact that I was never molested?

|> The Results of Childhood Sexual Abuse
|> -------------------------------------
|> 
|> Identifying With The Abuser
|> 
|> What are the consequences of childhood sexual abuse?  One sur-
|> prising result is "traumatic bonding," similar to the well-known
|> "Stockholm Syndrome," where hostages over time sometimes develop
|> a sense of identity with the terrorist:
|> 
|>     The final component of victimology we note is that of 
|>     traumatic bonding, described by Don Dutton and Susan Painter
|>     (1982).  This refers to the development of strong emotional
|>     attachment under conditions of intermittent maltreatment.
|>     Experiments with dogs showed that those who were treated
|>     intermittently with indulgence and punishment showed higher
|>     degrees of bonding than dogs who had been consistently 
|>     either indulged, punished, or isolated....
|> 
|>     This explains the strong attachments many abused children
|>     have for their parents (Kempe and Kempe 1978) and the 
|>     tendency of many sexual abuse victims to deny their own
|>     hurt in sympathetic understanding of their abuser.[Bagley &
|>     King, 109-110]

Note that this introductory paragraph indicates that many of the
after-effects of childhood sexual abuse are not exclusive to sexual
abuse, but also result from many other childhood (or even adult)
traumas.  So, even if you prove some statistical parallels between
these results of trauma and the behaviors of homosexuals, and
even if you could prove common causality (specifically that the
behaviors in homosexuals are the result of abuse rather than simply
chosen), you still cannot claim that the underlying cause is *sexual*
abuse rather than some other form of trauma.

|> Eating Disorders
|>
|> Significantly, soc.motss is a group
|> where many members identify themselves as "bears" (overweight
|> and hairy) as distinguished from "twinks" (those with more
|> normal body shapes).

If you want to distill "bears" down to a small set of features, then
"overweight and/*or* hairy" would be much more accurate, and "large"
would be more accurate than "overweight".  There may be some "bear
lovers" who are attracted to "overweight and hairy" men, but that is
their personal preference and they would not deny an average weighted
man to identify as a "bear".  A "thin/small and hairy" man may often
identify as an "otter", but that is usually seen as a "sub-species"
of "bear", and not a mutually exclusive category.

Also, while the bear contingent may be very vocal, this is mostly in
reaction to a feeling that the media is projecting the "bear" image
as undesireable and other images as being "aesthetically pleasing",
not due to their overrepresentation in soc.motss.  Certainly, you
yourself are guilty of this general "anti-bear" perception above
when you judge that the class of non-bears (in my mind, "twink"
is more specific than non-bear, and is certainly much more loosely
defined) have "more normal body shapes".  What is abnormal about
body hair?

Personally, I have not seen any significant difference in proportions
of overweight people in gay contexts than in other contexts...

|> Promiscuity

I could go into my personal theories about the popularity of casual
sex among gay men, but suffice it to say that identifying one driving
force that might compel a person to engage in numerous anonymous sexual
encounters does not necessarily imply that everyone who engages in such
activity is doing so for the same reason or that that reason is equally
self-destructive.

|> Powerlessness
|> 
|> Bagley & King describe one traumatic effect of childhood sexual
|> abuse as a sense of powerlessness[Bagley & King, 115-116] -- 
|> which certainly describes the continual whining in soc.motss
|> about being an oppressed minority in a heterosexist world.

It would seem to me that powerlessness would be characterized by a
sense that you are unable to fight back and therefore a tacit acceptance
of ones situation.  The "whining" that you apparently see in soc.motss
is at least one level above powerlessness and the community activism
that many individuals engage in (organizing boycotts, etc.) is anything
but powerlessness.  Certainly, when I look back to when I was in the
closet, I can identify many attitudes about my self and my sexuality
which you might call "powerlessness".  So far, I have found soc.motss
empowering.  Also, you should realize that many of the people in soc.motss
are closeted to varying degrees and so may still feel powerless, but for
very different reasons than that they were sexually abused as children
(unless you are willing to categorize overwhelming lack of acceptance
of one's sexual identity as a form of sexual abuse).

|> Self-Mutilation & Piercing
|> 
|> Both Bagley/King and Faller mention self-multilation as a response
|> of childhood sexual abuse victims.[Bagley & King, 117, Faller, 152,
|> 306]  The obvious parallel to "piercings," in which homosexuals
|> (though not exclusively homosexuals) have nipples (male and
|> female), scrotums, and the labia pierced, should be obvious.  As
|> a female victim of childhood sexual abuse who had taken to burning
|> herself with cigarettes and pulling out her hair told my wife, 
|> "It's a different kind of pain.  It takes your mind off the other
|> things that hurt."

I hope you won't be too hurt if I don't look to you as an expert on
body piercings or S&M practices.  Again, suffice it to say that since
one set of people engages in a particular activity for reasons of
self destruction does not mean that there aren't non-self-destructive
reasons for engaging in those same, or similar, activities.

You aren't particularly clear above about your personal assessment
of how widespread piercing is among homosexuals nor how that compares
to its frequency among non-homosexuals.  Even if you were trying to
imply that piercing is more common among homosexuals, I don't see what
this proves.  Specifically, one of the main reasons for not being
pierced (or tattooed, etc.) is the belief that society will reject
you if you go through with it.  Given that most non-closeted homosexuals
have already come to the realization that society's taboos relating to
some very fundamental areas (i.e. sexual orientation) are baseless, it
would not surprise me if they are overrepresented in bucking other
taboos.  Note that piercings and tattoos are quite common among motorcycle
riders, another group largely rejected by society.  (Actually, I don't
really know if they are more common, or if they are just less hidden.)

|> Chemical Dependency
|> 
|> I'm reluctant to quote secondary sources (especially postings), 
|> but I have been unable to locate the original documents, and
|> while Arthur Hu received substantial namecalling and insults,
|> I don't recall anyone questioning the validity of the data
|> presented:

As I recall, there were a lot of substantive questions raised about
the validity of the survey techniques including:

	- It was a voluntary survey (I'm not sure what effect
	  this has but the point was raised)
	- It was conducted by polling people entering/leaving
	  certain clubs where you would expect to see more
	  alcohol/substance abuse.  Certainly, the comparison
	  of rates vs. the general population did not compare
	  only to the general (non-homosexual?) population that
	  frequented similar "clubs".

Even still, you've given data that might show a correlation between
homosexuality and chemical use.  This might point out a need for
further study to find causality, but it certainly does not warrant
the conclusions you are quick to draw:

|> As you can see, a lot of homosexuals not only have chemical
|> dependencies, but were sexually abused as kids -- more than
|> you would expect, if there were no connection between their 
|> sexual abuse, and their current behavior.

Where did you show that they were sexually abused as kids?  That
is the hypothesis that you are still trying to prove at this point.

|> Suicide
|> 
|> The high rate of suicide among homosexual teenagers has long 
|> been shown as "evidence" that the heterosexism of our society
|> is destructive.  But a characteristic of childhood sexual abuse
|> victims is abnormally high levels of suicide attempts and 
|> successes.[Bagley & King, 121, 123, 141-142, Faller, 152, 306-307, 
|> Everstine & Everstine, 13, 153]  Perhaps homosexuality isn't
|> the reason for the suicides, but both are symptoms of the same
|> underlying pain?

I don't know.  You would have to investigate these teenagers and
see if there was a correlation with sexual abuse before you could
even suggest such a conclusion.  Having lived through the nightmare
of a closeted adolescence, I am far more inclined to believe that
the closet is the cause than I am to believe your conclusion.

|> Interesting Parallels
|> 
|> As should be obvious from the list of symptoms described
|> above, there is some astonishing parallelism between the char-
|> acteristics of childhood sexual abuse victims, and homosexuals.

Parallels do not indicate anything about causality.  This is
especially true when there are other explanations for each
of the instances of parallelism which do not require causality.
And as you showed above and I pointed out, many of the results of
sexual abuse are shared with other traumatic situations.

Even if the parallelism indicates a causal link, you might find
that the progression is "homosexual orientation implies traumatic
conflict with society over sexual identity which is a form of
sexual abuse which leads to the general after-effects of sexual
abuse indicated above."  In fact, given my extensive experience
with closeted homosexuals, I could almost believe this.  And the
resolution to this causal chain is to ignore society's taboos and
to come out of the closet.

|> How Many Homosexuals Are There?
|> -------------------------------

The more and more I think about it, the less I care what percentage
of the population we comprise.  Do we deserve more or less respect
based on how many of us there are?

|> The Sexual Orientation of a Child Molester
|> ------------------------------------------

In some sense do we really care?  If someone has a sexual identity
that is so screwed up that they need to coerce children into sexual
activity, then why would we suspect that the rest of their sexual
identity is complete?  Why do you insist on making conclusions
about homosexuality based only on studies of mentally unhealthy
individuals?

If you are conducting a study to understand what drives a sexual
molester, then it may be interesting to investigate their view
of their sexual identity, but this has to be considered unreliable
data from which to draw conclusions about non-molester's sexual
identities.

If we were to ask a mass murderer about his interest in gun collecting
and then try to make conclusions and judgements about gun collectors
who had no homicidal history, what would you say to that?

|> Child Molestation As A Cause of Homosexuality
|> ---------------------------------------------

I can easily understand that a child who is sexually molested by
an adult can have their whole sexual identity thrown into turmoil.
I can believe that such a child might pursue an orientation that the
child is neither naturally inclined towards, nor that they would
have originally pursued.  Given the nature of the behavioral
disorders you outlined above, it would seem to make sense that
the child's behavior as concerns his/her sexual identity would
be even more problematic than in other behavioral areas.

Also, given that there is a vicious cycle where many victims of
child sexual abuse grow up to become molesters themselves, this
casts additional doubt that we should make any conclusions from
a molesters claim to his or her sexual identity.  After all, since
they are likely to have been molested as a child themselves, their
sexual identity is already suspect and given that they have responded
with aggressive and inappropriate sexual behavior as an adult, why
do you think that their view of their sexual identity is an
objective view?

				...jim