Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 21:00:07

    Simon wrote:

 JB> Tadhg:
 > I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part
 > of the western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I
 > suggest that a substantial case could be made. This means
 > Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy, and I even look askance at most
 > of Germany....

 JB> It also included Morocco and Tunisia (or Africa and Numidia, or whatever),
 JB> as well as moorish Spain, none of which had much to do with High Feudal
 JB> culture.

 The African provinces of the Roman Empire produced, among other things,
 Augustine and Pelagius, without whom there would probably not have been
 any scholastic theology and almost certainly wouldn't have been a
 Protestant Reformation -- both rather significant events in our period
 (although I realize that Christianity isn't PC in the SCA, so forgive me
 for mentioning it). The reconquest of Spain from the Moors during the
 eight centuries prior to Columbus was rather significant, and (as someone
 has pointed out) the Arabs contributed in a minor way to the transmission
 into Latin Europe of Greek knowledge.

 Your assertion is comparable to saying that the United States isn't a
 North American country because it includes Hawaii. That's not grasping at
 straws, that's grasping at cobwebs.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

 JB> What was going on it Roman times was *not* the same as
 JB> what was going on in the middle ages.

 Gee, I didn't know that the Board had established an early cutoff date for
 the SCA period ... funny about all those Roman (and Carthaginian) names in
 the Armorial, they must have snuck in from the East Kingdom or something.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

 JB> Tadhg:
 JB> > No, my desires are much narrower. "South of the Trent, north of the
 JB> > Loire, west of the Rhine."

 JB> This is neither what you said above, nor what you propose below....

 So what's your point? I make a distinction, as you apparently do not (and
 seem unwilling or unable to grasp when others do), between what I'd like,
 and what I think ought to happen, and what can be justified formally. Of
 course, you're not the only one in this discussion who can't seem to
 cope with such distinctions. [Try to keep up, guys, please...?]

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

 JB> Tadhg:
 JB> > Marc Bloch, *Feudal Society*", esp. c. XIII "General Survey of Europe".
 JB> > Feudalism developed its highest forms feeding on the fragments of the
 JB> > Carolingian empire; England was dragged in when the Normans imposed
 JB> > French institutions on the Anglo-Saxons.

 JB> I *know* the Caroingian empire went past the Rhine; I think it went
 JB> basically out to the Elbe.

 Sure did; it also included most of what is now Catalonia. So what? The
 core was still the territory of the Franks: north of the Loire, west of
 the Rhine (I'll be happy to drop my northern border to the English
 Channel, if you insist). Aachen was Charlemagne's capital, and it is
 comfortably west of the Rhine, as any map of the area will show you.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------

 JB> Furthermore, the standards you have proposed for "Western Civilization"
 JB> make sense only up to the turn of the millenia or so.

 "Millenium". There's a lot more of "Pre-seventeenth century" prior to the
 year 1000 (which is what I presume you meant) than after it. French
 culture led Europe through the beginnings of the current century, despite
 a strong challenge from the Italians during the Renaissance.

 JB> This may be what *you* want to recreate, but it is *not* what the SCA
 JB> is restricted to.

 I make no claim that this is "what the SCA is restricted to", I merely say
 that this is where the SCA's major focus ought to lie. 

 JB> By the time the Crusades were under way, Feudalism across the Elbe had
 JB> been well established by the Teutonic Knights (not to mention Angevin
 JB> Hungary, etc.), and feudal states were established in the Holy Land
 JB> and for a time at Constantinople. Venetians and Genoans were taking
 JB> colonies in the Balkans and along the Black Sea coast, and carrying on
 JB> a brisk trade with the Levant and Egypt.  I don't know when the feudal
 JB> concept hit Scandinavia, but it did, and it was before 1600 I'm sure.
 JB> (No doubt one of the Nordmarkers will help me on this.)  In 1000 these
 JB> areas may not have been part of "Western culture", but in 1500 the
 JB> Christian areas were, and the Moslem areas were in close contact.

 So what's your point? None of these areas represents the center of gravity
 of what the SCA is trying to do, either in time or in space.

    Tadhg, Obelisk


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet