From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Strike at Saturn?
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 22:14:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.201804.20041@bnr.ca> dclayton@bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
writes:
>In article <1992Aug30.193347.25465@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
>underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>...
>> What I am saying is that it is unfair for the Japanese to
>> jack up the price of an American car by 100% over the price
>> in the USA..
>Why?  Do you know what a BMW sells for in Germany, or an Accord in
>Japan?  I don't think you do.

Think again.  And don't bring Germany into this.  We are debating
the auto complexities between the USA and Japan.

The cost of an Accord, according to my Japanese coworker, is
the same as an Accord in the USA; it's about ~$14,000.  The
Pontiac Grand Am, according to my Japanese coworker (who
happens to have lived in both countries), is ~$14,000 in the USA
but is ~$24,000 in Japan.

Tell me, Mr. Clayton.  Do you think that Accord owners in the USA
would pay ~$24,000 for an Accord?

> I think you'd find that German and
>Japanese cars are much more expensive in the U.S. (mabye not 100%).
>So how is this unfair?

This statement is about as intelligent as the previous statement by you.

>[incredible stupidity that many Japanese already know some Westerners have--
> _deleted_ to save bandwidth]
>Yes, but by how much?  Do you think you'll sell an extra 1000 or 100,000
>cars?  I don't think the volume is there to justify the expense.  Her point
>was why sell an inferior product in a market where it will obviously lose?
>You can't even win at home with import duties.

Who the hell are _you_ to tell someone what to sell?  Who the hell
are _you_ to tell someone what amount will "justify the expense"?

The point is that there should be free markets.  The access to the
Japanese market should be as open as the American one.

We should let the market decide what constitutes an inferior product.
That's all that economists and I want.  Equal access.

I just "love" stupidity like this.  Let's look at the statement made my
Mr. Clayton:

   "Her point was why sell an inferior product in a market where
    it will obviously lose?"

This statement is bullshit.  It is made frequently by pseudo-free traders.

Ms. Leith is free to _not_ sell her own products if she feels that they
are inferior.  But the point is that John Doe should be allowed to have
equal access Japanese market, regardless of what Ms. Leith thinks of John's
products.  Now, access to the Japanese market is restricted.  John
can't freely sell his products.  Ms. Leith just says, "Well.
In my opinion, John's products suck.  So, until John improves his
products, I will not support retaliation by my gov't to open the
Japanese markets.  End of discussion."

Note that Ms. Leith has missed the point all together.  Whether John's products
suck is all together irrelevant.  The system of free trade does _not_
work like this:  (1) Somebody like Ms. Leith _decides_ that John's
products are good enough.  (2) Only after #1 is fulfilled, then
then efforts are made to open the Japanese market.

No ma'am.

Free trade works like this.:  (1) Markets are opened or forced
open if necessary.  (2) Whether a person or company chooses to
make an inferior/desirable product is his/her business.  If the
product won't sell, then he or it will suffer the consequences.

#2 is a completely separate issue from #1.

But a lot of stupid Americans can't seem to distinguish between
#1 and #2.  I agree with many Japanese in that there are some very stupid
Americans.

>...
>Just because an economic system is different from yours you do not have to
>sink to obviously insulting comments.  You sound like if someones society
>is different then yours than it's obvously inferior.  That's an insult.

No one is being forced to be part of the free trade community.
If some country doesn't want to trade with another, _it_ doesn't have to.

If a foreign country, like say France, chooses to continue it's protectionist
measures and, and the same time, its citizens accuse the USA of
"bullying" Japan, then the USA should only spend its time and
energy to establish strictly bilateral free trade between the USA and
Japan.  In other words, we don't give a damn whether Japan closes
it's markets to France.

Why should the USA give a damn?  The hypocrisy inherent in what France
is doing is self-evident.  (This is just a hypothetical situation; I
have no comment on French trade policies.)

The American policy should be "If you expect free access to American
markets, then we expect free access to your markets.  Otherwise,
we'll play tic for tac."

>answer : ask a Canadian, and YES, we are pissed about the U.S. and your 
>         protectionist attitudes.

I favor the USA-Canadian free trade agreement.  I oppose all American
subsidies and other inhibitants, direct or indirect, to free trade with
Canada.

Happy?

Unfortunately, from people like Ms. Leith, you'll not get this sort of
direct statement of opposition to Japanese trade barriers.  Unlike Ms. Leith,
I can tell the difference between the #1 and #2 that I identified previously.

Unlike Ms. Leith, I realize that Japanese trade barriers are bad,
not only for us, but also for the Japanese.

>> But I do agree with some Japanese on one thing.  If Americans thought
>> like you, then they are _really_ stupid.  And there are quite a few
>> Japanese who think that Americans are 3rd world people, at least
>> in intellect.
>
>Oh, and you don't feel the same about them?

Nihon wa Kanada yori ii.  Mae ni Kanadajin ga sonna ni atama ga waruku ja nai
to omoimashita.  Demo Clayton-san ga itta koto o kiita ato de kangaekata o
kaemashita.

Does that explain it?

>...
>You're pretty good at the "evangilistic" preaching about how great you 
>are and how bad they are.  I suggest you take a look at your own country.

I don't preach.  I tell it like it is.

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Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
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