HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Anthony 'the Bard' Hobbs)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Reply-To: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council, Wgtn, NZ
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 05:48:57 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.025816.2729@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, aardvark@dragon (Pam Williams) writes:

>And finally, John Myers Myers' "Silverlock," a book that every person who has
>ever had to take English Lit. courses in school should read. Trying to catch
>ALL the references in this book would be a daunting task indeed! Unfortunately
>I didn't discover it until years after I had graduated from College. 

Yaaarrrggh! I've read that book. It totally destroyed my illusions that I was a
widely read individual... yes, get your hands on this book if you can! Some of
the sexroles are on the verge of being dodgy (this was c. 1949, remember) but
more than made up for by sheer confusion of interesting characters from just
about everything ever written (including Dante!), and a plotline that avoids
the twin traps of abstruseness and corniness while taking the reader on a
guided tour of Literature in general.

    ...I was thinking of mentioning Tolkien here, but I decided against it. :-)

anthony (the Bard)

p.s. HI JANIS!!!!!!! [waves]
--
Anthony Hobbs             the Bard                hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz    
OverPope, First Holy and Unreformed Church of Frozen Yoghurt - romantic poet - 
synth player extraordinaire - kate bush is goddess - hail Eris - praise "Bob"!
DISCLAIMER: I am not Romanian and was not head of the Securitate for 15 years.
From: radzy@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Lynne Radzykewycz)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:34:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: S'mores (was: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

/ hpcc01:alt.pagan / aardvark@dragon (Pam Williams) /  7:58 pm  Aug 14, 1992 /

> "War for the Oaks" and "Bone Dance" by Emma Bull 

I'll second the suggestion for "War for the Oaks".  A friend lent it
to me shortly after finding out that I was a pagan (he saw my postings
here in this group, but rarely posts), and he let me know that he tends 
toward paganism himself (don't know if he calls himself a pagan though).  

Anyway, it's sure neat to find pagans around you.... and you're already 
friends with them!

Lynne

------------
lynne@hpnst.mayfield.hp.com
From: Chris.Olmstead@p777.f76.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Olmstead)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Amber...Jet.
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:36:44 GMT

Hi Amelia,

  AC>   My
  AC> Victorian-jewelry-fanatic friends say that for decorative purposes it
  AC> probably doesn't matter much--it all looks the same.  But for magical
  AC> and meditative purposes it should make a big difference.  I would be
  AC> curious if meditators (my powers here are weak) can sense a
  AC> difference. 

Yes.
I _believe_ I can sense a difference, though I have yet to have encountered
enough jet, placed next to glass or other stones, to run any real 'tests."

However, I have a friend who tells an amusing story about being in a mineral
shop with her spouse--and how she reached out and speculatively touched a
chunk of unfabricated jet.  It riveted her attention to itself and she said
she couldn't put it down, so her spouse had to pay for it before they could
leave.
I'd say that's a good indication that it 'feels' different from glass.

Chris
 * Origin: The Gingerbread House (1:280/76.777@fidonet)
From: system@korova.uucp (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 15:58:48 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

> In article <0aBJPB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.
> > heinlein was a sexist homophobic unimaginitave dickhead.
> 
> I can agree with everything except unimaginative.
> At least his earlier works were occasionally imaginative,
> though he definitely lost his creativity at some point along the way. 
> Have you read "Revolt in 2100"? About a popular uprising against
> a totalitarian right-wing theocracy.
> But Heinlein himself was very right-wing - probably due to his
> involvement with the military. 


heinlein was far from homophobic. ever read "time enough for love" or 
"the unpleasant profession of johnathan hoag"?  i especially disagree 
with the sexist label, "friday" was one of his best books. his females 
were always smarter and stronger than the men and the men loved them that 
way. he never portrayed women as the weaker sex. i actually think he 
idealized women. as for unimaginative...well..i dont think hes called 
"the father of sci-fi" for the HELL of it...:>

or mabye im just a tad prejudiced...

squid

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: system@korova.uucp (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 15:55:11 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:

> In article <bszu8q.m2p@wang.com > smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:
>  >cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>  >It's an odd thing. When evangelical Christians (that's me) push for more
>  >attention to the Bible and so on, it is usually because that is a fairly
>  >good defense against the sort of hated-filled additions people try to make
>  >to the faith. You don't find justifications of pogroms in the Nicene
>  >creed or New Testament. But, of course, if you do push for such attention,
>  >you're dogmatic and rule (or book) bound. (And you can *always* find some k
>  >who can "prove" wild things from the Bible, so it isn't a sure tenchique
>  >anyway.)
> 
> 	It seems to me that for a divine revelation the bible is remarkably
> inconsistent and open to finding whatever you want in it. This would suggest
> to me either
> 	(1) It is not divine revelation
> 	(2) It is, but has been corrupted
> 	(3) It is revelation but by a deity with a sense of humour, or
> desiring to make his followers THINK.

usually people see what they want to see. most divine scripture is a 
literary rorschach blot..

and i REALLY hope if there is one true deity that he/she/it has a sense 
of humor and wants us to think...:>

squid

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: pierson@kukri.mps.mlo.dec.com (dan pierson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:31:47 GMT
	<1992Aug15.013101.15589@u.washington.edu>
	<1992Aug17.162739.8831@burrhus.harvard.edu>
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction; canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) adds:

> captures the spirit of the Scandinavian folk tradition.  Poul Anderson does
> a very good job at reworking saga literature with his version of Hrolfs
> saga kraka and other similar stories.  E.H. Boyer takes a different tack

It may be worth noting, that the professor in my ancient Icelandic
literature course at UC Berkeley used Poul's translations of shorter
pieces in preference to several standard ones...

                                            dan

--
Dan L. Pierson          Digital Equipment Corporation
pierson@crl.dec.com     Massively Parallel Systems Group
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Anthony 'the Bard' Hobbs)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:00:19 GMT
Reply-To: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council, Wgtn, NZ

In article <16074@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
>In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd ask people
>for their favorite works of fiction with pagan themes. I'll start by
>listing several of my favorites:
>
> [...cool books deleted...]
>
>Obviously Arthurian fiction will be prominently featured in any
>such list. It's really become a genre of its own. Personally I've never
>gotten much into it, but it certainly has proliferated lately. I had
>the occasion last year to attend a talk by Persia Wooley, author of
>an Arthurian trilogy told from Guinivere's standpoint. The first of this
>trilogy is "Queen of the Summer Stars". I haven't read it yet, but the
>author's talk on her research into Celtic paganism was inspiring.
>
>I guess Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books would have to qualify as
>pagan fiction, as would Kathryn Kurtz' various Deryni series (in that
>they feature a magic-practicing race, though the author is clearly a
>very devout Catholic).

He mentions Marion Zimmer Bradley, and the Arthurian novels, and yet doesn't
mention "The Mists of Avalon"? For shame! :-)

[At this point, the Bard suddenly realised that many people had a severely bad
opinion of that one of his fave books. He quickly donned his flameproof
underpants and sacrificed 20 bars of dark chocolate, asking the net.goddess to
protect him...]

>Blessings to all,
>Richard
>(Tuneweaver)

My first posting to a.p since I regained net.access. Hi everyone!
anthony
(the Bard)
--
Anthony Hobbs             the Bard                hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz    
OverPope, First Holy and Unreformed Church of Frozen Yoghurt - romantic poet - 
synth player extraordinaire - kate bush is goddess - hail Eris - praise "Bob"!
DISCLAIMER: I am not Romanian and was not head of the Securitate for 15 years.
From: prs@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Phil Stephens)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re:  Need help/advice on designing my Tarot deck.
Date: 18 Aug 92 05:45:38 GMT
Distribution: na

From article <2A830EE0.11708@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, by cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese):
> emotions.  (Of course with your suits, you will have to make different
> assignments!)  Then write down the numbers from 1 to 10 and think to
> your self how a project proceeds from conception to completion; modern
> life is a good example.

Not to disagree, but to point out alternatives: I have learned to treat
the numbered minor arcana *in the Rider-Waite deck* in the opposite
order.  For instance in the Pentacles suite, 9 or 10 shows a young
couple ignoring the wise old man, whereas the lowest numbers *other
than the ace* can be interpreted as getting closer to balance and
wisdom etc.  Similarly, I don't see the 9 and 10 of swords as
culmination of a journey, but as a rather painful awakening to the need
for that journey: the truth cuts like a knife (my teacher's take; feel
free to ignore this particular reality tunnel), and is still painful in
the imagry of 3 swords thru a large heart, but becomes balance in two
of swords.  Aces?  She calls those "freebies", with "grace" represented
by the ghostly/godly hand in each image: they can come anywhere in "the
path".

I wrote some similar stuff on a similar topic in alt.divination
recently; you [the general "you"] might want to check out that
newsgroup also.

I also saw Janis's post that lists her unique variation on the Major
Arcana: beautiful!  And a good example of how when you make your own
deck, you get to choose whether to do a slight variation on some
existing deck, or start essentially from scratch.  I'm not inclined to
do either right now, but I find the concept interesting and
worthwhile.

As I said in the other group, if I were to design such a deck, I would
do collages of photos (from magazines and/or my own photos), then take
pictures of those and use the 3x5 or 4x6 prints directly as cards.

Just some ideas/perspective.  Hope you have fun!

B*B

 Phil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: gift to the sea
Keywords: here, fishy fishy...
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:56:41 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:

>Noone in the Netherlands is starving. The Netherlands is an
>industrialized country in the north-western part of Europe. It shares
>borders with Belgium, Luxemburg and Germany and has a Northsea coast.

>--Ceci, still advocating geography lessons to everyone who posts on
>        the WORLDWIDE net

Um. I know where it is. I've been in Belgium a few times, at least, and
have a rough feel for north europe in general. I've even driven a car
in Belgium, which requires (for an American) an instant facility to guess
at the meaning of Dutch, Flemish, French and German words. (Ingang and
Outgang were easy. Some were not. It is not an experience for the timid.)

(Oh! Was the problem that I said 'ocean' when I should have said 'sea'?
Sorry - they are interchangable terms in American usage. Didn't mean to
be confusing. They are flinging the bread into the sea to rot, then.)

I don't know specifically about the ecomonics of the Netherlands, but I'd
be a bit surprised to learn that no one there is starving. I mean, I know
France makes that claim, but walk the streets of the smaller French cities some
time. If the Netherlands have done better, I salute you. America is an
industrialized country in the Northern part of the Americas, positioned
between Mexico and Canada, has coasts on two oceans, and more starving
folk than you can count. Pathetic but true.
--
"I daren't drink," said Jill.  "Then you will die of thirst," said Aslan.
"I won't," said Jill. "I'll find some other stream."
"There is no other stream," said Aslan.     CSLewis _The Silver Chair_
smayo@wang.com
From: elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: gift to the sea
Keywords: here, fishy fishy...
Date: 16 Aug 92 18:44:44 GMT
Organization: Paratheo-Anametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric, Edwin Meese Cabal

[author's name removed.  look it up yourself.]
>
>Noone in the Netherlands is starving. The Netherlands is an
>industrialized country in the north-western part of Europe.

"I have seen no evidence of poverty in America."
	-- Attorney General Edwin Meese

'Nuff said?
			-- Elton
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: That Virgin Mary really gets around
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 06:37:20 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

<e0LePB7w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) :
>lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>> <11190028@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> reykja@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Reykja Sigurd
>[three tiers (one attribution gone) of making fun of the virgin mary deleted]
>
>i find all this rather odd, myself.  this thread, that is.  i had always
>thought the mary sightings were very nice, rather moving.

I always thought they were fairly silly.  At least as silly as Elvis
sightings.

>                                                           proof that even
>christians need the goddess.  

They don't worship her as a goddess, but as the *human* mother of a god's
son.

>                              if people are seeing the virgin mary, and more
>people WANT to see her, why should we make fun of that?  

See above under "silly".

>                                                         if i thought she
>existed, *I* would try to go someplace where i could see her in person!  why is
>it that pilgrimages are subject to ridicule if people in OUR culture go on
>them?  i think they're beautiful.

I think it's terrible that people have their hopes raised, spend money
they can't afford to spend on travel, only to sit and stare at a knowhole
in a tree.  What a waste of humanity.


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:11:32 GMT

idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser) writes:
> And if you get the chance, check out _Friday_, and see a world (briefly, I'll
> admit) where Wicca is the principal religion.

I did.  I thought Friday was one of those women Janis was talking
about -- someone who'd go down with *anyone*.

Didn't notice any wicca there, but then again, when I read it, I wouldn't
have know what a wicca was if it bit me.

Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: briansp@css.itd.umich.edu (Brian Spolarich)
Subject: Re: Survey
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:39:20 GMT

In article <36099@zephyr.ens.tek.com> davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>In article <Bt8JGq.76D@news.larc.nasa.gov> kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov ( Scott Dorsey) writes:
>>In article <16tkkmINN9gu@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s21.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
>>>In article <920818174711_70253.2621_CHC74-1@CompuServe.COM>, 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes:
>>>|> When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is not a valid answer)
>>>
>>>When you burn your computer, where will the bits go?
>>
>>To the DEC Field Service office, of course!
>
>
>  I here I always thought that they just went into a big bit bucket. 
>
>
>-david

	/dev/null, of course!   :-]
        (or alt.dev.null, or #/dev/null, if you prefer)

         -b.

________________________________________________________________________
Brian W. Spolarich			"I never understand what it is
1029 Vaughn St.				about all of these vegetarians
Ann Arbor, MI 48104			trying to make vegetables taste 
(313) 747-8473				like meat.  I mean, do priests
Internet: brian.spolarich@umich.edu	buy a lot of blow-up dolls?"
Bitnet:  USERW292@UMICHUM			-Kyle Baker
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Tarot: What's the blank card for?
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 19:26:44 GMT

Janis raves;

>"You ignorant, condescending, superior, know-it-all jackass.
>Every time I read a post by some mathphobe who can't balance his
>checkbook blathering about how he knows all about what Science
>[sic] is, and how because he can't add 2 and 2 he is innately
>spiritually superior, I have to hold my sides to keep them from
>bursting in laughter."

  Cool !!!

  This one goes STRAIGHT into my floppy disk o' shadows !!!

  Working in a Quality Assurance group, I could now rave for
PAGES about Heisenbugs and Mandelbugs, but I think I feel
a faint coming on ...

  Janis, that is, without question, the most fantastic
alt.std.flame (TM) I have ever seen in my life.

  I'd go on, but I think I have to sit down now and laugh my
ass completely off.  ;)

  Blessed way the hell be, Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 14:53:20 GMT

>"He was a misogynist, homophobic right-wing asshole with his
>thumb up his ass.
>
>Just one person's correct opinion,
>Janis"

  And that thumb, by his writing at least, was usually up
someone else's ass ...

  I made the mistake of promising myself I would finish
ANY ONE of Heinlein's books written after "Puppet Masters"
(which I thought, at the time, was pretty good -- although
I'm now convinced if I went back and re-read it I'd barf
body parts).

  So anyways, I get a copy of "Time Enough For Love", and,
with the continued encouragement of my Heinlein worshipping
friends of the time, and over the course of a summer, manage
to ram it down my throat.

  I'm still trying to get the taste out of my mouth.

  Heinlein had one good book in him, and he kept writing and
publishing rough draft after rough draft after rough draft without
ever reaching that one good book.

  It was really funny (funny eugh, not funny haha) to watch
the Church of All Worlds appologists side-step the apparently
even more mysogynist and homophobic stuff that was put back
into the re-release of the book.

  Make that three person's correct opinions
  Ciaran.
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:59:21 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

> In article <34FoPB2w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) w
> >canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
> >> 	Jethro Tull - surely everyone knows about "Cup of Wonder",
> >> 		"Beltane" and "Jack-in-the-Green" by now?
> >
> >How about "Ring Out, Solstice Bells"? and "Weathercock"? and many others!
> >I am a die-hard JT fan (have EVERY album) or couldn't you tell!
> 
> 	Oh yeah? :) But do you have the "Rocks On the Road" English 2-CD EP
> set with the original acoustic demo of Jack-a-Lynn?  Or the 2-CD _uncut_
> original version of "Bursting Out"?
> 	Well, OK, I don't have that one myself ... yet :)
> 	I suppose that "Dun Ringill", and "Cold Wind to Valhalla" might as
> well get mentioned.  "Weathercock" is awesome - I love to listen to that
> one early on a crisp fall morning.  Ahhh!

:( No, I do not. I am very bummed out. I shall swing no more... (said in 
a steve martin silly voice)
I had no idea those recordings existed, but I do have Ian's solo 
album, and the Classic Case of JT album, as well as a 24k Gold CD of 
Thick as a Brick (you really can hear the difference, I have the 
regular CD of TaaB too). And yes, "Dun Ringill" defnitely belongs on 
the list! "...Valhalla" too! Although it is not really pagan, I have 
always had a fondness for "Cheerio" on the _Broadsword & the Beast_ 
album. It evokes that feeling of tradition and friendship, comraderie 
even that a really good pub has. And of course, there is Aqualung, 
side two. "Hymn 43", "Slipstream", "Wind Up" and "My God!" had more to 
do with my beliefs regarding organized religion than other influence.


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Bob Marley: Time will Tell
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:05:31 GMT

I just saw this movie, it's good. It's a good introduction to what it
all means, and I bet you thought Marley was just a pop star. Marley said
Heaven is on the Earth, quite a few Christians have also said that, and
some where burned for it. Marley grew up in Trenchtown and never knew
his White father. I've been to Trenchtown. If a person can grow up there
and say that Heaven is on the Earth, then I would take his word. I think
we all have to know this before we can begin to heal the Earth, and
treat it with the respect that it is due. Once we know that Heaven is
right here, right now, on the Earth and we treat the Earth with respect,
maybe then we will treat all the plants and animals with respect also.
One of those animals is Homo sapien sapien. One day we will all know
that we are the angels. Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight. I 
won't Bob. Jah Rastafari.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan