HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leary@bozo.sdsc.edu. (Bob Leary,,45123)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Vegas World info wanted
Date: 1 Oct 1992 17:16:55 GMT
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center @ UCSD
Distribution: world
Reply-To: leary@bozo.sdsc.edu.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bozo.sdsc.edu

In article 26921@unixg.ubc.ca, swood@unixg.ubc.ca (Stephen Wood) writes:
>In article <BvEGxA.MyB@news.dtc.hp.com> wallace@dtc.hp.com (David Wallace) writes:
>>In article <19qc16INNg5t@network.ucsd.edu> leary@bozo.sdsc.edu. writes:
>>(with respect to the Vegas World deal):
>>
>>>$450 of real money.  Interestingly, twice I was allowed to double down
>>>in very favorable situations (11 vs 5 or 6) with a bet increment
>>>of "real" (cashable chips),  or an effective increment of twice the original
>>>bet.  I won both times.  The first time this happened, it was inadvertant -
>
>Frankly I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference whether
>you use real cashable chips or the match play chips, but then I'm not 
>a math.weenie.  BTW you don't lose the match play chips on a push at
>Vegas World do you?
>
>


I checked Humble et al WGBB last night - he claims doubling down
situations for the basic stategy player occur slightly less than 10% of
the time,  with a postive expectation of 0.17 per dollar bet when
averaged over all such hands.  Thus "tripling down" should be
worth about +1.7% to the basic strategy player - a significant cut
out of the -2.4% blackjack payoff rule.  Also, VW  treats pushes
with the match play chips in the conventional way - no chips
change hands.

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: mbuck@fibers (Michael D. Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: AC Info Wanted
Date: 6 Oct 92 21:31:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: fibers.1992Oct6.173123.594
Distribution: usa
Organization: Allied Fibers, Petersburg VA

In article <1992Oct5.200751.3017@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
> 
> I wouldn't give any applause ot TropWorld, or any other A/C casino.
> 
> If they were really customer oriented, they would-
> 
>     1.	Have $2 tables, at least at off-peak times.
>     2.	Have at least 10% nickel slot and video poker machines.
>     3.  Provide reasonably priced meals or meal specials in their
> 	delis and coffee shops.

Well, I suppose I really should have prefaced my article with a
general disclaimer of distaste for Atlantic City's policies, but
what I really meant was that at least TropWorld is doing *something* that
other AC casinos are not doing.  I agree that it is pathetic to see
people lining up for 5 nickel slot machines in an entire casino, and
that the $2 player (this is me, I might add) has no table game action
ever in AC.

I wonder, though, why it is the way it is.  My impression was that
the AC casino managers knew they had a monopoly on casino activity,
and since there are only 12 casinos in AC (as opposed to 50+ in Las Vegas),
they were charging what the market will bear.  I mean, let's face it,
no AC casino is having trouble attracting customers.  But, maybe my
impression is not correct.  Any other ideas?  What would happen to table
minimums in AC if the Casino Control Commission didn't require that a
casino have a minimum 500-room hotel attached, and all of a sudden 20
new casinos popped up?  Hypothetically speaking, of course.
________________________________________________________________________
Michael Buck                          | "Orange Juice...It's not _just_ 
UUCP: decwrl!twwells!fibers!mbuck     |      for heterosexuals anymore!"
Internet:                             |                -- Anita Bryant, 
  twwells!fibers!mbuck@decwrl.dec.com |                 in a future life
Newsgroups: rec.gambling,chi.wanted
From: ege@cbnews.cb.att.com (Ernie Englehart)
Subject: Info wanted on riverboat casinos in Illinois
Organization: AT&T Network Systems
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 22:41:56 GMT
Followup-To: rec.gambling
Keywords: Illinois, riverboat gambling, Joliet

I'm looking for information on the riverboat gambling available in
Illinois.  I know about one in Joliet...has anyone been on this boat?
Are there any others in the Chicago area?

When will the casinos in downtown Chicago be open?  8-)
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|   Ernie Englehart   AT&T Network Systems    Columbus, Ohio   |
|   att!cbnmva!ege    Room 1D-184S            (614) 860-5244   |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: wallace@dtc.hp.com (David Wallace)
Subject: Re: Vegas World info wanted
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:39:09 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Design Technology Center, Santa Clara, CA

In article <19qc16INNg5t@network.ucsd.edu> leary@bozo.sdsc.edu. writes:
(with respect to the Vegas World deal):

>$450 of real money.  Interestingly, twice I was allowed to double down
>in very favorable situations (11 vs 5 or 6) with a bet increment
>of "real" (cashable chips),  or an effective increment of twice the original
>bet.  I won both times.  The first time this happened, it was inadvertant -
>I had run out of 5$ CA chips and ony has 25$ CA chips left, so
>I threw out real 5$ chips to double down rather than change the greens.
>The dealer accepted this, and payed off my $10 CA + $10 real money bet
>with $30.  Unfortunately, this happened late into my CA bankroll,
>and I only got one other opportunity to try this "triple down" play,
>this time of course quite deliberately.  I don't know how long this 
>would be allowed if tried at every opportunity.  Perhaps the more
>mathematically inclined would like to figure out the expectation for
>such a BJ variant where tripling down is alloed, but blackjacks are payed
>at 1:1.

Well, here is a partial analysis of the "triple down" play.  Let p be the
probability of winning the double-down bet, and q=1-p be the probability of
losing, ignoring pushes (you keep the CA chips on a push, so it doesn't
matter what you do in this case).  Then if you use your CA chips to double
down, you lose the CA chip all the time (worth about 48% of face value),
and get paid off full value p of the time.  Net expectation for each $ of
CA chips bet:
	E(Bet CA Chips) = p(+1) - .48 = p - .48

On the other hand, if you double down with real money, you win $1 p of the
time and lose $1 q of the time for each dollar bet, so:
	E(Bet Real Money) = p(+1) + q(-1) = p - q

Hence to maximize your expectation, you should bet real money whenever
q < .48.  I.e., you should double down (or split) using the CA chips
whenever your probability of winning the new bet is close to .5 (or
negative, in the case of splits), but should use real money when you have a
bigger advantage than the casino normally has.  

As far as how long the casino will let you get away with this, I suspect
they will let you do it indefinitely.  After all, they let people betting
real money double down with real money in this situation.  From their point
of view, they get their cut from your initial bet - the fact that you
occasionally get to place a positive expectation bet later in the hand
helps to minimize, but does not overcome, their advantage.  In addition, a
gambler who gets in the habit of pulling out real money for splitting and
doubling down may well continue to play with real money after the CA chips
are gone - and that's where they get their biggest edge.  

Dave W. 	(dwallace@dtc.hp.com)
-- 
Dave W. 	(dwallace@dtc.hp.com)
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Roulette system(s)
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:10:40 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <1992Oct4.220135.29469@RedBrick.COM> jfr@RedBrick.COM writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.145632.14941@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct2.160004.23643@odin.corp.sgi.com> stantz@sgi.com (Mark Stantz) writes:
>>>In article <1992Oct2.125323.27279@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Oct1.200614.6906@odin.corp.sgi.com> stantz@sgi.com (Mark Stantz) writes:
>>	What I mean is this.  Wouldn't it be a wonderfully agressive
>>	strategy to bet on 35 out of 36 numbers? There are certain
>>	specific numers that don't come in for thousands of spins
>>	(in a random cyclical fashion).  You could sit there and win
>>	one unit per spin with great reliablity in a game like craps
>>	if you could parse your bet out like that.  But one zero
>>	every so often kills the whole thing.
>
>  Yeah, come on down to my casino at my house and do this on MY wheel :-)
>
>  This is not an aggresive strategy, it is a STUPID strategy.  You have
>  exactly the same odds per amount of money wagered as if you bet all
>  38 numbers and LOST 2 units every time.  Over any reasonable long
>  playu , you will lose your bankroll and possibly your shirt doing
>  this.  You could bet ONE number and lose it 35 out of 36 times on
>  average (plus the times 0 or 00 come up :-)  
>
>  Jon Rosen

	Another article from the terminally illiterate.

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Xref: sparky rec.gambling:5069 rec.food.restaurants:2116
From: stuart@jahangir.UUCP (Stuart)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling,rec.food.restaurants
Subject: Caeser's Sunday Buffet
Keywords: Hours, Prices
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:36:51 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: MDC, NYC

I need to know when the Caesar's Palace Buffet opens on Sundays and the
price.  I cross-posted for 2 reasons:

1) I do not subscribe to either of these news services (so I only get cross-
posted items back on them)

2) It sort-of fits into the two of them (The place is in Vegas)

Thanks
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No sir I don't like it!" -- Mr. Horse
Stuart Blavatnik			Stuart@Jahangir.uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: marlon@milpa.EBay.Sun.COM (Marlon Pearson)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Elko, Nv
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:48:04 GMT
Reply-To: marlon@milpa.EBay.Sun.COM (Marlon Pearson)
Distribution: ca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: milpa.ebay.sun.com

I have seen adds for inexpensive flights to Elko, Nev.
on Red Lion Casion Airlines or something like that. 
What is Elko like ? How many casinos and what are 
the blackjack and craps conditions in Elko ?
What else can you tell me about it ?

Went on an overnighter to Reno this past Friday.
Won a little at 21, lost a little more at craps,
had fun. Cashed in $16 worth of pennies at the
Nevada Club (took 16 minutes too).
Be ready to do it again in a couple months.

Marlon
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: Marc.Ringuette@DAISY.LEARNING.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: Roulette system(s)
Originator: mnr@DAISY.LEARNING.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 02:46:00 GMT

Mark Stantz points out that looking for "favored numbers" on a wheel is
problematic because random noise will create a lot of false positives even
with a lot of play.  However, if you're looking for "favored quadrants"
rather than single numbers, you can make do with a much smaller sample.
However, there isn't much hope that there will exist, on most wheels,
a favored number or quadrant.  There's a better hope that the wheel is
tilted slightly.

Check out the book "The Eudaemonic Pie" by Thomas Bass - the one where
they build a roulette computer into a shoe.  The book is a lot of fun.
A gang of California hardware hackers form a little commune and try
to take on the casinos.

The group's experiments showed that if the wheel is tilted slightly, the ball
tends to fall off the "top" side of the track significantly more often.  Of
course, the spinning wheel may be in any position at that time.  Their method
is to time the speed of the ball and of the wheel -- with toe clicks as the
zero passes a mark and as the ball passes a mark -- in order to predict the
quadrant of the wheel where the ball will fall.  I believe that a tilted
wheel helps largely because it tends to quantize when the ball will fall.


-- Marc Ringuette (mnr@cs.cmu.edu)
From: roitman@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Richard K. Roitman)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Blackjack Simulators
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:47:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: oasys.25660
Reply-To: roitman@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Richard K. Roitman)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD



I'm a new reader of this news group having only recently found it.
It has renewed my interest in blackjack to the point that I am now looking
for a good simulator to start trying to learn card counting, basic strategy,
etc.

I have read the FAQ but could find nothing on the subject there.  I
did find in the archives, soda.berkeley.edu, both BJT.hqx and bj-221
but I can't find the secret to unlock them and make them useful to me.
I also found at export.lcs.mit.edu something called xblackjack-2.1 which
I also cannot figure out how to work.

I'd appreciate anyone out there who can pass along the secrets to making
these work letting me in on the secret.  Also, any general discussion
of commercially available software would be appreciated.

I'm sure this must be a FAQ but as I said I could not find anything
on the subject there.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Rick Roitman                    Carderock Division
roitman@oasys.dt.navy.mil       Naval Surface Warfare CEnter
From: swood@unixg.ubc.ca (Stephen Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Vegas World info wanted
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:47:13 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

In article <BvEGxA.MyB@news.dtc.hp.com> wallace@dtc.hp.com (David Wallace) writes:
>In article <19qc16INNg5t@network.ucsd.edu> leary@bozo.sdsc.edu. writes:
>(with respect to the Vegas World deal):
>
>>$450 of real money.  Interestingly, twice I was allowed to double down
>>in very favorable situations (11 vs 5 or 6) with a bet increment
>>of "real" (cashable chips),  or an effective increment of twice the original
>>bet.  I won both times.  The first time this happened, it was inadvertant -

Frankly I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference whether
you use real cashable chips or the match play chips, but then I'm not 
a math.weenie.  BTW you don't lose the match play chips on a push at
Vegas World do you?
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Roulette system(s)
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 13:27:18 GMT


	I've heard about a roulette system for sale for $300,
	which essentially trains you to do the same type of
	extrapolation in the Eudaemonic Pie, with no electronics.

	Has anyone heard of this or know anything about the
	system?  I have the name somewhere.


-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall)
Subject: Re: BJ: advantage from high count linear?
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:09:22 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.171824.843@miavx3.mid.muohio.edu> jfeldhouse@miavx3.mid.muohio.edu (Jim Feldhouse) writes:
>I have read that for each + count using a system like HIGH/LOW
>the advantage for the player goes up roughly .5%?
>Assuming this is correct, is this linear?

It is correct.  It is not perfectly linear, of course; it is
*approximately* linear.  As I dimly recall, you can find graphs of this
in Humble and Cooper's "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book" and
Epstein's "Gambling and Statistical Logic" or whatever that book was
named.

>As in, if the count is +10 the advantage that hand is 5%, +20 = 10%?

Plus the base (dis)advantage for neutral counts.

From simulation data, 100 million hands of 7 rounds head-on,
single deck, downtown Vegas rules, Wong Halves:

 True
 Count  Advantage
<=-20     -4.68%
  -15     -4.89%
  -10     -3.37%
   -5     -1.95%
    0     -0.04%
   +5      2.83%
  +10      5.13%
  +15      8.16%
>=+20     10.48%

I've listed two digits past the decimal, but these figures are not
that accurate.  If you want more accurate figures, I could dig out my
billion hand simulation.

>A related question is, is the advantage per + count using
>Wong Halves as opposed to HIGH/LOW the same?

Yes.  From Wong's "Professional Blackjack"...

 "Each additional count per deck gives you an extra 0.56% of
  advantage in the high-low count, with a standard deviation
  of 0.22%... In the halves count, each additional count per
  deck also gives you an extra 0.56% advantage, but with a standard
  deviation of only 0.06%."

>Seems to me that
>at least both systems are trying to estimate the same number,
>it is just that one is more accurate.

Well, I think the fact that the advantage per count is the same is
more or less coincidence.  For example, if you use Wong Halves *doubled*,
this is just as accurate, but it has half the advantage per true count
level (unless you switch to half deck true counts.)

-- 
Michael Hall            \"Your blackjack bankroll behaves much like a portfolio
NASA Ames Research Center\ of stocks.  A mathematician would describe it as
hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov \following a random walk with an upward drift." -Wong

Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jfr@RedBrick.COM ()
Subject: Re: Roulette system(s)
Organization: Red Brick Systems, Los Gatos, CA
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 21:56:59 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.200614.6906@odin.corp.sgi.com> stantz@sgi.com (Mark Stantz) writes:
>[deleted stuff on system to find biased wheels]
>	With a larger number of spins (~3000 spins, or about 30 hours of
>constant play) false positives become much less of a problem.  If you then
>artificially bias a number (and it's impossible to do this in a way resembling
>how a wheel would actually be biased, if in fact it were, so I just tweak
>the random number generator) you have to introduce really strong biases (99%
>of spins truly random, 1% of spins forced to produce a given number) before 
>these biases become detectable.
>
>	All the time you're sitting there trying to find the biased numbers,
>betting on odd/even, red/black, etc..., while writing down the results, the 
>house percentage is eating away at you...it really adds up, too.

  Well, you can generally just watch the wheel and write down your results.
  The house (in Vegas at least) tends to have no problem with this.  The
  bigger problem is that most roulette plays take several minutes.  This 
  is 30 plays an hour or only about 750 plays a day.  Unfortunately, most
  casinos change their wheels regularly, at least every couple of days,
  and often every shift.  Since you have no easy way of knowing which
  wheel is which (unless you tried to mark it or something :-) your chances
  of figuring out whether a wheel is biased over a large enough sample size
  and then actually being able to play your findings at THAT wheel is very
  very slim, probably non-existent.  

  So I agree with you, this is probably not a very lucrative idea.

  Jon Rosen
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: herrj@gtephx.UUCP (Jim Herr)
Subject: Re: LV Trip Report August 92
Summary: Not "Tight-assed"... just the law
Organization: AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 15:54:24 GMT

In article <19ue07INN7po@network.ucsd.edu>, erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin) writes:

> I gotta a story about this.  I was hanging at the $1 SD table here, 7 spots,
> 6 stools.  The table was very rarely less that full; either someone would stand,
> or someone would play 2 spots.  One time I tried to drag another stool over to
> use the empty spot.  But no, they made me take it back to the unused slot
> machine I grabbed it from.  Fine, I can stand for a while....  Later, a man
> using those wrist-crutch things to help him walk hobbles over.  By then, I had
> gotten a seat.  He sees that there are only 6 stools, so he goes to considerable
> lengths to drag over a chair.  He gets the stool over, and the dealer tells him
> he can't do that.  He says he has a spine problem and can't stand for any
> length of time.  The dealer tells him he can't sit.  Pretty tight-assed, eh?

Not really. The reason that they only allow 6 stools at
a table is because of the fire regulations. I suppose they
could replace all their felts with six spot felts, and then
no one would complain, but they still get action on the 
seventh spot from people willing to stand.

Circus Circus is "tight-assed" in other ways though. Remember
the great milkshake discussions of early '92? Well, my wife and
I sat down at a blackjack table and bought in. My wife happened 
to be carrying a rootbeer float that she picked up at a casino
snack bar. The dealer didn't have any problems with this, but 
the pit critter refused to let her play with the rootbeer float 
at the table. Even if she held the thing away from the table 
during play. (And there was only one other person at the table, 
so it wasn't like a miscellaneous elbow was going to knock it 
over.) With this kind of thinking, one will never get a milkshake
at Circus Circus while playing.

                                       - Jim

+--------------------------------------+--------------------+
|Jim Herr                              |                    |
|  At: ncar!noao!enuucp!gtephx!herrj   |    This space      |
|  or: uunet!zardoz!hrc!gtephx!herrj   | intentionally left |
|  or: gtephx!herrj@enuucp.eas.asu.edu |       blank        |
|AGCS, Phoenix                         |                    |
+--------------------------------------+--------------------+
From: pc0837@sarah.albany.edu (COHEN PAUL L)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Predictions
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:58:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: sarah.1992Oct1.145842.4299
Organization: State University of New York at Albany

I would love to see your predictions and comments on pro Football.
If you would like to share, please email to pc0837@sarah.albany.edu
Keep this address for future mailings.
                                           -Paul