HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:55:59 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              92 8:21 am

Jim Porter writes:
> Irv ... But I'd say the problem is the _move_ that attempts to
> create two different discourse categories, whether you split
> them as persuasion/referential or rhetoric/argumentation.
> (Another comparable ideological split that raises a ruckus and makes
> writing teachers' lives miserable today: rhetoric/poetic.)
> Kinneavy is no less culpable than Aristotle in this regard:
> his discourse theory privileges reference discourse, because
> it is "reality centered."
>
Jim:
The _move_ to create two different discourse categories is
simply the move of classification.  Whatever categories one
creates (and most reasonable genre theorists--with the exception
of Kinneavy--if we think of the 1968 Kinn. as Kinn.-- understand
that when they "create" categories, they are simply doing
so for the sake of conversation, knowing that most (if not all)
conversation is predicated on constructed categories.  Further,
one creates categories not as inclusive entities but as a way
of talking about tendancies.  Certainly some discourses
are more audience than reality centered (excuse the terms,
Jim Crosswhite); editorials verses car manuals. The appearance
of dualities are appearances only--perhaps because when one
brings up terms, we dualize them, as we have been taught to
dualize them.  When I employed K.'s terms, I hardly supposed
they were the only two types of discourses or even that they
were the most useful ways of referring to kinds of texts.  I
think Walter Beale does a better job in this regard.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET (David E. Schwalm)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: getting a "C"
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:54:24 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

From: David E. Schwalm
Androgogy is not my term, but, OK, how about anthrogogy? Anyway, since when do
we let ancient Greeks tell us what modern words mean? How about studentgogy
and teachergogy? Right now, I'm for administratorgogy.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:12:45 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

Tim McGee -- You suggest in your note that "it's easier for the audience
to feel confident that proposision X means X than it is to be certain
that picture Y means Y."  I'm having a little trouble with that, since
it seems to imply that a picture cannot be propositional.  I would
disagree with that implication.  Let's get back to the picture of the
Pope. Suppose the picture had the Pope wearing a swastika armband
and a toothbrush mustache?  Then I could see a neat embedded proposition
somewhat like destroy[bad guy[pope be bad guy]].

  The point I made
with an earlier posting is that visuals are accepted as language by
those who work primarily in visual media.  Same with music.  That
is why my admiration for Suzanne Langer's _Philosophy in a New Key_
has been tempered a bit by caution in accepting all her judgements
about the character of music. Ron Shook
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:34:00 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

From: David E. Schwalm
Cartoons that are purely visual suggest that visuals can be propositional,
depending (as with language) on what the viewer brings to the experience.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:58:08 -0500
From:         SIRAKOV@VASSAR.BITNET
Subject:      RE: at-risk students

>When you go to Vassar, you sacrifice the
>opportunity to do research with key players in the field, you have no
>classes with star personalities, you don't have great lab facilities, you
>get no football team, and you miss a lot of the things that make huge
>universities the places that they are.  On the other hand, you gain small
>classes, with great teachers; a focus on teaching over research; a
>willingness to consider innovative pedagogy, and a sense of community with
>students, faculty and administration.

That was an awfully foolish thing for me to say.  Let me amend that:  you
*sometimes* sacrifice the opportunity to work with key players in a field.
I by no means meant to suggest that the professors at small liberal arts
colleges are not key players in their fields.  It's just that in a small
liberal arts college, you don't get any classes with Carl Sagan; if you
want that, you go to Cornell.  Also, the focus here is not teaching over
research, but teaching on a par with research.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Simon
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:04:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Digest to be down until Saturday 21 November (1)

Entry: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:02:22 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Nov18.070222.v7.023.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: Digest to be down until Saturday 21 November (1)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Because I will be away from the office for three days attending NCTE (hope
to see some of you there), the Computers and Composition Digest will go on
hold until early Saturday morning.  The next mailing will likely be large. I
ask that readers avoid sending mail to the Digest until Friday afternoon (20
November) by which time I should be able to get in to clear my mailbox.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "As long as there is the state there is no freedom."
                                                             - V. I. Lenin

------------------------------
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Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 09:49:00 EST
From:         "JEFFREY R. GALIN" <WPWP@PITTVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: "First draft" composition software

Frank,
        I can't answer your first two questions but have something to
say about the third--what is available on Unix for hypertext.  The
hyperCard stacks I have built for use by my students are all loaded onto
our UNIX machine at Pitt.  We have a "mega-server" dubbed
"Mac-Applications" that gets piped into the 6 or 7 university labs
linked to our UNIX.  MacApps also holds all word processing software and
a host of other applications.  Of course all of these stacks are locked
and are read only.  So any writing students do is saved either on their
own disks or on a userdisk space partitioned on individual harddrives.
Since the userdisk space is available to anyone who uses that machine
nothing saved there remains.  But it's handy to have about 25 megs of
user space for all kinds of reasons.  I give students copies of stacks
they need for writing or designing their stacks.  I can have additions
to the hypercard application updated as necessary.
        Hope this helps.
jeff galin
Univ of Pitts
galin@vms.cis.pitt.edu
From: peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU (Irvin Peckham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: getting a "C"
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:43:14 GMT
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>
> >Note the root of pedagogy.  I suppose it's traced back to foot,
>
> Is this true?  I thought the root was paidos" (child), not podos"
> (foot).  Both roots were reduced to ped" in Latin, but I think the
> Greek originals were quite distinct.  Indo-European roots are
> different too: *pau (boy) becomes paidos in Greek, puer in Latin;
> *ped (foot) becomes podos in Greek, pes in Latin, pedestrian in
> English, etc.
>
> We can't afford to put pedagogy on the wrong footing!
>
Jim:
Okay, I was just guessing.  actually, what I found was most interesting
was that the word can be traced back to the slaves who let the little
monkeys toward truth.  Can't remember where (or if) I dug that up.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 07:05:52 -0700
From:         MACEYTAY@ARIZVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: software & hardware

At Western Illinois, a 10-system (Commodore 64) facility was put in place
in the spring of 1984 for the WESL Institute, the intensive ESL program.
This included writing, of course.  The English Department put in a larger
writing lab for its use soon after that (also C-64), but I'm not sure of
the exact date.

Macey Taylor  maceytay@ccit.arizona.edu
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:34:00 CDT
From:         Mary OSullivan <MFOSULLI@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason

>From:    IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU"   "Megabyte University
 (Computers & Writing)"
>To:      Multiple recipients of list MBU-L <MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET>
>Subject: Re: Taking Offense at Reason
>
I apologize if you received two messages about Minnich's book and reason, along
with a lot of extra stuff and the heading.  I am not sure how I did that, but I
am new on the network.  Luckily, I am also signed up for the _Navigating the
Internet_ course.
Mary O'Sullivan
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:12:47 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              92 11:51 am

>
> Irv -- When you speak about E. Rosch, are you talking about the one
> who used color chips to test the Whorf-Sapir hypothesis and came to
> the conclusion that humans exhibit "discrete perceptual discontinuities"?
> That is, there are perceptual strategies that are "natural," in the
> sense that they are based on human neuroogical processes.  If it's the
> same person, I'm not sure I understand/agree with your statement that
> she laid Aristotle to rest. Ron Shook
>
Ron:
I read this article on classification some time ago:  did _she_ conduct
an experiment with color chips or did she merely cite it?  The point
she/I/Lakoff are trying to make is that that categories are not
"external."  That's pretty much in keeping with the humans (or any
other perceiver) creating the categories according to perceptual
abilities as well as language and cultural limitations.  I was
referring to Aristotle's conceptions of closed categories (something
either is or isn't in the circle).  I doubt whether many (if any)
classification theorists/practitioners would ascribe to a belief
in what Lakoff called classical categories.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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X-Resent-Date:  Mon, 23 Nov 92 16:31:49 MST
X-Resent-From:  Martin Rosenberg <ATMER@ASUACAD>
X-Resent-To:    mer <mrose01@ukcc.uky.edu>
X-Resent-Date:  Fri, 23 Oct 92 07:54:29 MST
X-Resent-From:  Martin Rosenberg <ATMER@ASUACAD>
X-Resent-To:    mrose01@ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:38:40 EST
Comments:     Resent-From: mer <MROSE01@UKCC.uky.edu>
Comments:     Originally-From: Martin Rosenberg <ATMER@ASUACAD>
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Happy Thanksgiving

**********************HAPPY THANKSGIVING******************************

modernist thanksgiving                    postmodernist thanksgiving
----------------------                    --------------------------

                                         )  (
  (~~)                                   (  )
  ( 0 >>>   If Kandinsky did          (~~~~~~~)   If Laurie Anderson
  |  / %    a Turkey.                 (       )   made a statement about
 /   |\                               (       )   the objectivication and
/       \                              (     )    commodification of
|--  |--|                                (  )     turkey as colonized
 |   |                                    ||      trace of the NEW WORLD ORDER
 |--<|--<                                 ||
                                          ||
                                         /  \
                                         ----          get some rest
                                                       folks............mer

Martin E. Rosenberg
Department of English
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-0302
1-602-965-3168.
From: LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Taking Offense at Reason
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:22:10 GMT
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Go, Sharon!!
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:27:31 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: at-risk students
              92 10:34 pm

To the Vassar graduate:
My description of the liberal arts schools (Vassar we haven't visited
yet, only read about, talked to recent graduates, etc.) was in no way
meant as demeaning.  On the contrary, I was promoting the kind of
pedagogy of the small (and quite expensive) liberal arts schools as
the kind ALL schools should consider, if not adopt.  Too bad about not
being with the key players (who may not teach all that much); too bad
about missing the football games).
  Don't interpret my statement as "coddling" students.  I think that
these liberal arts schools (sorry for the generalization) treat students
as they should be treated:  as very valuable individuals--as important
as their teachers.
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU (Irvin Peckham)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: getting a "C"
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:39:24 GMT
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              92 11:07 am

Thanks, Tim.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: JCROSS@OREGON.BITNET (James Crosswhite)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Still defending reason
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:56:20 GMT
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In response to Jim Porter, Yes, "reason" has a history that gets invoked
when the term is used, but the history itself is fractures, fill of
controversy and contradictions. It's not just a matter of what _I_ want
"reason" to mean, The question I'm trying to respond to seems to me to face us a
   ll: given that the old metaphysical interpretations of what happens when
people reason are no longer convincing for most of us, what new, more useful
interpretations can we come up with? The rift in the recent posts lies along
familiar lines: (1) we disciple ourselves to the masters of suspicion and expose
    the false consciousness in the idea of reason--a necessary task, but an
approach that can also drift odff into enervating cynicism. (2) We try to
renew some understanding of the affirmation which motivates critique itself,
and the reasoning in it. For me, the affirmation is connected with the way
the idea of reason tried to promise freedom and non-violence. I'm trying
different angles on reason to see o if I can find what made the promise
believable.    Jim Crosswhite  jcross@oregon.uoregon.edu
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:10:05 CST
From:         "(McDonald James C)" <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Last (?) thoughts on lurking

Angela, please don't assume that everyone is ignoring your messages just because
no one writes a response.  I know that I often have no time to write a response
or I enjoy a message but don't feel I have anything to add.  It is more diffi-
cult to interpret silences in these conversations than in face-to-face.
  But it is nice to know you're not being ignored, so this posts for you.
   Jim McDonald
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:56:20 CST
From:         Bob Whipple <whippl@PARROT.CREIGHTON.EDU>
Subject:      2 requests for help

I'd like to ask my fellow MBUers for the following:

1.  A reference to a published copy of the Wyoming Resolution (or an e-text,
if you have one).

2.  Reference to any resolutions or proposed standards you (y'all) might
know of concerning ideal class size and teacher load for intro. to liter-
ature classes that are part of a university's Writing Across the Curriculum
 schescheme.  (these first two are requested b/c we at Creighton are writing a
new curriculum to go into place next Fall.  {

2.  Any tales or "lore" regarding your (y'all's?) experiences with Dell
workstations, particularly their ability to take the pounding inevitable in a
24 station lab; OR, any thoughts on wear and tear in labs that are used
upwards of 14 hours / day, icluding experiences/advice/funny stories/
whatever.

Thanks very much.  As many requests might load MBU wigh many similar messages,
 pplease feel free to email to me at my own Internet address, or send responses
(that's what I want, not requests as in 2 lines above) via snailmail.

Bob Whipple
Director of Composition
English Department
Creighton University
Omaha, NE 68178			Internet:rhetoric@creighton.edu
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:38:14 EST
From:         Roni Keane <VKEANE@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia
              14 Nov 1992 17:22:09 CST from <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Irvin,

Could you give the cite for Langer? Thanks. --Roni
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:54:00 EST
From:         Pseudopodia can only be so long <TABRON@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

I will NOT lurk, I will NOT lurk...

maybe I'm a little confused about what ideas exactly are on the table re:
the "propositional" or rhetorical value of images (and what sort of images
are we talking about?) i've spent all day reading Leo Steinberg's _The
Sexuality of Christ in Renaissance Art and in Modern Oblivion_ and am
astonished anew at precisely how _much_ "rhetorical" information a picture
can convey. The lexicon is not fixed, or not _as_ fixed, but no one could
doubt the fact that, in medieval and Renaissance art at least, propositions
(in Steinberg's case, concerning the corporality of Christ) are certainly
being discussed. I think it has something to do with an image's willingness
to refer and therefore to comment. In that way, I think that _Tiny Toons_
are much more involved in a "rhetorical" discussion than, say, Mondrian's
work, precisely because they are involved in a manipulation (and possibly
therefore discussion or at least amplification?) of _current_ iconography --
which is not to say that Mondrian is _not_ presenting us with propositions
in his paintings, only perhaps that the lexicon/ language is more difficult
to access.

p.s. has anyone else looked at the Celtic History hypercard stack available
from the server at mac.archive.umich.edu? It's AMAZING. and I am astonished
at how much the author (apparently only one) has gone out of his way to _make_
it a learner-controlled learning experience, _and_ to include competing
points of view. i haven't spent enough time with it (and don't really know
enough) to testify as to its "scholarliness", but from what I've seen, it
looks good.
I'd love to be able to find freeware stacks on literary or compositional
topics somewhere in Cyberspace -- I have all the decoding/decompression
capability, if anyone out there knows where I might be able to find anything.

Judith Tabron
humble grad student, Brandeis University

> I  live for Macs. I could just suck up this stuff all day.
> tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:05:00 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: getting a "C"

Dave:  I'd vote for administratorgy.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:18:58 AST
Comments:     <17NOV92.23900506.0046.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      Re: ERIC

>  many good libraries hold the ERIC database on fiche.
     Most of the good ones I know have access to it on CD-ROM,
too.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 10:24:43 CST
From:         Judy Boss <boss@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia and hypermedia
              92 8:48 am

James:

I'm told by a local biochemist and a local geneticist that they do think
in images for their work, that they believe this to be typical for
chemists and molecular biologists, and they suspect the same is true
at least for theoretical physicists among the sciences.

Judy Boss
boss@cwis.unomaha.edu
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:18:34 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Still defending reason
              at Nov 17, 92 8:30 am

>    And I emphatically deny that reason and emotion are
>opposites (I don't even like the faculty-talk that the
>dichotomy or its denial suggests.) Rather, I think that
>reasoning *depends* on mood and emotion--in fact, that any
>kind of awareness/activity does. I don't see how anything I
>wrote commits me to a reason/emotion split or a claim that
>reasoning is somehow ideology-free.

Jim ... If you invoke "reason" you're invoking the entire
history of the concept, and the entire discourse theory
supporting the concept. The term carries a lot of
baggage with it, whether you want that baggage or not:
reason (vs. emotion), reason (vs. rhetoric), reason (vs.
faith).

But your most recent post clarifies what _you_ want reason
to mean: it includes emotion and is opposed to violence.
You're drawing on sources attempting to reconceive
reason along the lines of what I think
of as "rhetoric."

Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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