From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
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Distribution: world,public
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 02:39:52 GMT

Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615 (brian@lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:

[Jeff West quote deleted]

: It grieves me to hear this kind of discussion.  God gets accused of
: things that are really not his to begin with.  Both Christians and
: non-Christians alike attribute the pain and suffering in the world
: to God.   This is not true.

I don't blame pain and suffering in god, because I don't believe in hir.  Pain 
and suffering are the results of disease, stupidity, malice, thoughlessness, 
selfishness, carelessness, and simple bad luck.

:
:    I'll state my point first then back it up.  The point is this.
: Ultimately, we as humans have chosen death over life.

I made no such choice.

[apologetics deleted]


: 1.   Recall Genesis 1:16
:
:      And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from
:      any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree
:      of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it,
:      you will surely die."
:
: Genesis 3:6
:
:      When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for
:      food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining
:      wisdom, she [Eve] took some and ate it.  She also gave some
:      to her husband.
:
: Genesis 5:5
:
:      Adam . . . died.

If you don't have a conscience (i.e. knowledge of good and evil) then how can 
you be held accountable for your actions?

If you don't know what good and evil are, then how can you know that the fruit 
is "desirable for gaining wisdom"?

: You may also note that the "serpent" had a major role in enticing
: Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  You may
: attribute some of the responsibility of man's fall to the serpent,
: but God still held Adam and Eve accountable for the choice they made.
: The consequence of eating that fruit reaped death for humanity thereafter,
: and yet Adam and Eve knew that consequence behorehand.

The consequences were death for themselves and for billions of others.  Sure, 
your god is reported to have admitted to "inflicting punishment for their 
fathers wickedness on the children of those who hate me down to the third and 
fourth generation", but don't you think a minimum of 1500 generations (if the 
creationists can be believed) is a little excessive?

:
: 2.  Another example from Job.  This example shows that Satan
:     can and does instigate and cause suffering and death.  Without
:     God's intervention, there is no cork on Satan's evil.
:

[Job's afflictions deleted]

I'm amazed that Xians point to Job so often.  God and Satan get into a "Job 
loves you cause your good to him", "does not", "does",... argument and God 
(the omnicient, omipotent, omnibenevolent) allows Satan to inflict sufferring 
on Job to prove that he, god, knows what's what.  If the omnicient is omnicient
then the omnicient knows and need prove nothing.

I am also amazed at the audacity of god.  When, Job asks that god give and 
accounting of the reasons for his punishment (Job 31:37) then god, in a very 
long winded way, tells Job that he (Job) has no standing before the court of 
celestial justice.

What a farce!
: 3.  Consider Jesus' death.  Here was the only sinless man ever
:     to exist.  A perfect man.  God incarnate.  Who killed him?
:     Pontious Pilate?  Judas Iscariot?  Sure, they had their hands
:     in the pie.  Do you know of anyone else?  How about the
:     same dastardly being who enticed Eve to eat the fruit
:     and killed off Job's family?  What "possessed" Judas
:     Iscariot to betray Jesus?
:
:     Luke 22:3
:
:     Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
:
:
:
: From the Bible you will see Satan ruining people's lives and
: enjoying it.  On the other hand, from the Bible you will see God
: fortifying people's lives, promoting the good, removing the
: evil,  loving, and encouraging love.  God wills that no one should
: perish but have everlasting life.

Read the thread "Violence in the bible?" for a bunch of examples of god
"promoting the good, ...".

:
: Here is a question you may want to ask yourself.  "Do I have the
: same affinity to the tree of knowledge of good and evil as did Eve?"
: Eve, remember, was a perfect human being before the fall.  And she
: fell into the trap.  We are in a fallen state already.  Are we
: better than Eve?  Can we handle the knowledge of good and evil?
: What does human history say?  What was Eve's option in the first
: place?  She could have eaten from the Tree of Life.
:
: That same stubbornness and self-will that led Eve into
: thinking that she could handle the knowledge of good and evil, is
: the same stubborness and self-will and over the same thing that
: prevents people from eating from the Bread of Life today.
: People are still choosing death over life.
:
: So people, John 3:16:
:
:     "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only
:      Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but
:      have eternal life."
:
: And John 6:35:
:
:     Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life."
:

Let me see if I've got this right.  An omnicient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent
being creates two humans who are destined to ingnor said omnibeing.  Then
omnibeing holds these two and all humanity for the rest of history accountable
for a crime that the original two don't even have the wherewithall to
understand.  As icing on the cake, said omnibeing becomes incarnate as another
human so s/he can be brutally tortured as a way to expiate the sins of the
original two people.

And after all of that, pain and suffering continue.

HEY GOD, GET A CLUE, YOU NEED A PLAN!!!

: With sincerity,
:
:
:
: Brian Ceccarelli
: ----------------
: brian@gamma1.lpl.arizona.edu

I'm also sincere,
-- 
Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
Even if you choose to ignore it. | 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc