From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<1992Sep22.174419.906@hfsi.uucp> <LEET.92Sep23080525@dove.ims.com>
	<739nj7k.sheaffer@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:28:00 GMT

Yow!  Another chance to debate with Scepticus Maximus! ALRIGHT!!

>>>>> On 24 Sep 92 23:02:32 GMT, sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) said:

Robert> In article <LEET.92Sep23080525@dove.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>
>Another possibility which has been proposed is that at least *part* of
>the crowd shouting "Crucify him!" were hired by the Jewish leaders who
>also paid Judas.  It is probable that, as John said, some former
>followers were turned against him, possibly by these hirelings.
>However, I vaguely recall something about this happening in a way that
>would preclude a significant crowd from gathering, unless they had
>been invited (by the Jewish leaders).

Robert> Of course, an angry crowd of Jews would shout "stone him!", not
Robert> "crucify him!". Surely they would not cry out for a Jewish man
Robert> to be executed by the Roman enemy in a manner incompatible with
Robert> Jewish law.

No, they'd just stone him on the spot, like they did with Stephen.
After all, they had him, they were armed, the disciples all fled - why
not just kill him right there?  Note, also, that when he was led
before the Jewish leaders, the charge was blasphemy, but in front of
Roman leaders the charge was sedition.

Robert> This is yet another part of the Gospel account of Jesus' trial
Robert> and execution that makes no sense.

Unless the leaders were *using* the Romans to get the dirty work done,
and thereby preventing a fullscale riot.  Imagine: the Jewish leaders
stone a *very* popular Messiah-figure, in the dead (nyuk, nyuk) of
night - what kind of Passover uproar would that cause?  BUT, if the
*Romans* did it, the crowds might think twice - one could cause a
Masada-like massacre inside the walls of Jerusalem.

>Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "When the chief proiests, therefore, and
>Integrated Measurement Systems |  officers saw him, they cried out, saying
>9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  Crucify him, crucify him! Pilate saith
>Beaverton, Or 97005            |  unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him,
>(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  for I find no fault in him." - John 19:6

Robert>                       So a group of Jewish chief priests and officers,
Robert>                       when asked by a Roman ruler to flagrantly
Robert>                       violate Jewish law, eagerly leap up and
Robert>                       do so? NOT!

(Here's where the debate gets interesting, because Robert knows this
stuff backwards and forwards.)  Is it a violation of Jewish law when
someone *else* does it?  As I recall, it was (and still is?) lawful to
ask a Gentile to perform a non-lawful act on one's behalf.

Robert>        "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
Robert>         Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
Robert>         broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
Robert>         where it will end."
Robert>                                - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"

               "I am the Christian the Devil warned you about"
                                       - T-shirt at the Billy Graham Crusade

Actually, Robert, I'm rather astonished that you'd include a quote with
the letters "G", "o" and "d" in consecutive order in your .signature ...
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment
Integrated Measurement Systems |  and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  head and of my beard, and sat down astonied."
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  - Exra 9:3
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |                                         THUMP!
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic