HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:32:34 GMT


I strongly disagree that discussions of the "civil" war and other
atrocities in what was once Yugoslavia should be posted in
soc.culture.jewish.  However, this article, with its inane attempt to
garner Jewish support and sympathies has a section relevant to Jews that
deserves comment.

In article <1992Aug14.160353.24463@cco.caltech.edu>
simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:

>  	My grandmother and her five kids had to flee Kosovo (southern Serbia)
> when the war started, because the local Albanians who took ower the province
> when Hitler came started killing the local Serbs (men), and my grandfather
> had to flee. She had some gold and house which she sold and they left for
> Kragujevac (average size town in Serbia proper). The family spent rest of
> the war there, accepting in their small house two Jewish families who where
> hiding from Nazies, and were eventually transfered to a safer place by
> the Serbian royalists. The story about these times passed to me by my
> grandmother and my mother is my personal insight into Serbia under Nazi
> occupation, and the predominantly friendly attitude of Serbs toward Jews.
> This is about personal responsibility part of your comment.

The fact that you can name someone who helped Jews in Yugoslavia during
the Holocaust proves absolutely nothing about the overall treatment of
Jews in that country.  After all, in Germany itself there were Germans
who helped Jews.  This does not, in any way, absolve Germany of its
crime.  Talking about specific examples goes only as far as making
those examples praiseworthy.  Those that did nothing are not
particularly better than those in colusion for the Holocaust.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: hlevene@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Howard Levene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Summer Camps
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:15:58 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Since we are on the topic of summer camps...

I attended a Jewish Summer Camp (J.C.C. camps.  Run by the Federation.  I would
catagorize this camp as reform.) for 3 years.  A Jewish travel group for 2
more, and I worked at the camp for another 3.

The camp itself served only Kosher food (Under Tri-County Vaad, I think).  But
there were scantily clad females present, especially at the pool.  No extremely
observant Orthodox would be attending this camp.

Themes at the camp often carried a Jewish flavor.  One station during the day
that campers would visit (i.e. swimming, fishing, arts and crafts), was an
Israeli/Jewish learning point.  Also, all divisions held a Friday afternoon
Oneg, complete with Kiddush and HaMotzie.

However, the camp was not staffed or populated by 100% Jews.  Therefore, the 
counselors sometimes did not appreciate all the events that were sponsored.

In all, I'd call the camp "Jewish Friendly," but not a place to do serious
Jewish learning the way I would expect that someone at Camp Ramas (Ramah?)
would get.

In all, I didn't really care for camp as a child, but I enjoyed having free
Kosher lunches every day as an Employee (Lifeguard!)

Howard Levene



--
 Howard B. Levene              |    "I'll call you the next time I pass
   You'd think I'd use someone |         through your star system."
      else's opinions?         |          -- Commander Wil Riker, ST:TNG
 hlevene@eniac.seas.upenn.edu  |  Data is a Mechanical Engineer, too.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: become jewish ?
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:16:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.153621.3507@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.101010.11514@cicb.fr>, moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB) writes:
> |> 
> |> is it true that nobody can become jewish and it is obligatory to
> |> have a jewish mother ?
> 
> 	ABSULUTELY NOT!!!
> 
> 	I'm not sure where you got this information, but is is completely 
> wrong.  (As far as I know, the only religious groups that do not have a 
> conversion process are the Samaritans and the Druze.)
> 

Karaites are what you mean, not Druze?  The Druze are a sect of Islam,
not Judaism?  I read an interesting article about the Karaites.  They
are fast disappearing because their children inter-marry and they
have no remedy since the non-Karaite (can be a Jew, and it is still
considered inter-marriage by the Karaim) cannot convert the
non-Karaite spouse.  This is also because you really need a certain
amount of critical mass to survive and provide enough potential marriage
partners in the pool (Iraqi Jews still in Iraq have the same problem).
There are two communities (small) in the US, one in
San Francisco and one in Baltimore.  I believe the
article was in Hadassah magazine.

Also, among some Sephardim, although conversion is "recognized"
they consider that it is different to be born a Jew or converted
to a Jew (halachically or not).  I have met a couple (both non-Jews)
who were refused by a Sephardic rabbi and then converted into
a Chasidic group.  I think the rabbi was from Syria.

> 	The conversion process is fairly straight forward, though it is not
> easy (on purpose).
>   
> |> And what do you think of extrem-rights mvts which grows in europe 
> |> ?
> |> (Le Pen in france, neo-nazis in germany)
> |> do you think are they only hooligans or is it more dangerous ?
> 
> 	If they are not opposed, they are _potentially_ as dangerous as Hitler.
> 
> 	Elya


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers's.
From: murray.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Can of Worms
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:50:06 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton

Barry Elin responds to Sheldon Ackerman
 
SA>* In a message originally to All, Soc.Culture.Jewish said:
SA>SS> From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
SA>SS> Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
SA>SS> Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
SA>SS>
SA>SS> "technically" a goy, I ask who are you to "decide" that only
SA>SS> your sect
SA>SS> knows how to define who a Jew is?  Also, who gave you
SA>SS> monopoly control over
SA>SS> our religion (in fact, don't you represent barely 10% of the
SA>SS> worldwide
SA>SS> Jewish population; that's hardly a controlling interest)?
SA>SS> --
SA>SS>        Stan Krieger                     All opinions,
SA>What do percentages have to do with it? If 90% of the Jews intermarry 
or eat
SA>bacon, it makes it OK? If the majority of individuals are on drugs, 
then who
SA>are we to make drugs illegal?
 
And Medical doctors represent only 2% of the population, should we
say the other 98% should determine who is a doctor?
--- 
 * Origin: WORLDS LARGEST strictly JEWISH BBS - (718) 756-7201 
(1:278/610)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Becoming Jewish?
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 10:53:32 +0300

 In: <Bt2Mpn.379.1@cs.cmu.edu>
 clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) discusses Sephardi Conversions:

>In article <1992Aug14.161603.5361@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
>
>   Also, among some Sephardim, although conversion is "recognized"
>   they consider that it is different to be born a Jew or converted to
>   a Jew (halachically or not).  I have met a couple (both non-Jews)
>   who were refused by a Sephardic rabbi and then converted into a
>   Chasidic group.  I think the rabbi was from Syria.
>
>Certainly not "mainstream" Sephardic tradition.  If this were the
>case, the various problems that sprung up between the Sephardic
>Rabbinate in Israel and the Bene Israel (Ethiopian Jews) would have
>been quite different.
>
>On the other hand, I can imagine that the Jews from Arab lands could
>be quite reticient to convert anyone.  Historically, conversion to
>Jewry (from Islam), being contrary to Islamic Law, was probably very
>difficult or downright illegal in Islamic countries.

I  would  think  that  till  not very  long  ago,  in  many  Christian
countries, it would  not have added much to any  Christian's health to
convert to Judaism (nor to the health of the converting Rabbis).

Thus I do not see that Stewart's guess on the reason for less Sephardi
conversions  could have  been  correct.   Anyhow, to  the  best of  my
recollection the  RaMBaM (Maimonides)  who lived in  Muslim countries,
discusses at length the laws of conversion.

>Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: berger@atropa (Mike Berger)
Subject: Re: Jewish summer camps (Was: Hebrew school)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:53:54 GMT

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.203157.29610@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>>I'm now wondering if our synagogues are approaching the education issue
>>correctly; specifically, they're trying to treat it as a "school" instead
>>of as an extra-curricular activity.  After a whole day of public school,
>>more structured "school", especially when motivation is absent or when
>>there are "fun" activities that the children are missing, is not going
>>to be received positively.

>I am one to point out that I don't view Shabbat (and Judaism in
>general) as restrictive, rather, I view them as positive,
>"constructive" opportunities to relax, catch up on sleep, friends,
>learning, food, and other things.  The important part of Stan's idea is
>to remember the balance.  Judaism is not all fun and games.  A Jewish
>school has the responsibility to attract, but also to teach (maybe to
>the extent of 'warning').  For example, I'm not sure how to make
>learning about Jewish history's darker periods into a fun event.

>Given that, I suspect it will be a difficult bit of effort to convince
>kids, especially from homes that, as we've discussed, don't consider
>Jewish education to be the most important thing going, to believe that
>Hebrew school is an extracurricular, fun, activity.
>-- 
It seems to me that you've mixed up two issues.  We learned jewish
history and culture in religious school on sunday.  The point 
behind four years of hebrew school was to get through the Bar Mitzvah.
Period.  It's a lot harder to motivate the hebrew school kids
when the class really doesn't have anything to offer beyond
learning rudimentary hebrew (and in four years of it, that's all
I learned).
--
	Mike Berger
	Department of Statistics, University of Illinois
	AT&TNET     217-244-6067
	Internet    berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Judaism and Vegetarianism (LONG)
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:41:29 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)

In article <1992Aug12.174427.19527@njitgw.njit.edu>, dic5340@hertz (David Charlap) writes:
>I believe there is one minor oversight here.  I always thought that
>Kosher meat was not "factory farmed" as such, and that Kosher
>slaughter techniques do not violate tza'ar ba'alei chaim.  I'd think
>that they couldn't.

A friend of mine out in Berkeley wanted to do shekhita once in his life.
He went with the local shokhet to the all-purpose slaughterhouse.  Out
there, he had to settle for factory farmed animals.  He practiced on
some carcasses, compared blades with a Muslim shokhet, and then got
down to business.  The first cow he slit wrong, so it wasn't kosher.
The next twelve he got right.  When he and the shokhet opened them up,
they were all diseased.  Numerous internal sores and miscellaneous rot.
The USDA inspector came by, looked at them, and stamped the carcasses
grade A.  With one exception.  One cow had a severely bloated liver.
The inspector had the liver cut out, stamped the liver condemned, and
approved the rest, grade A.  Finally, one more cow was shekhted and
opened up, and proved to be relatively OK.  There were many healed sores
in the lungs, so while it was not glatt, it was still kosher.  I don't
know if they sold that one to the goyim also; I find it hard to believe
that the kosher food industry buys from independents, what with all the
questions of supervision.

In short, some factory farming could make it into your kosher kitchen,
but it's not likely.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Breaking a Glass in the Marriage Ceremony - Why?
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:51:04 GMT

Well folks the title says it all... I guess this has been answered
some time on the net, so I apologize for asking it again.

-Danny Keren.
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Radu's Doubts
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:40:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.ceX7mM600WB2Ap0FY3
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

"Anonimus" @nyu writes:
Here. Trudjman is a fascist. During WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet.
Tell me how that explains the shelling of civilians in Croatia and
Bosnia-Herzegovina today.


I say:
First of all, personally I don't have enough information to reach
your conclusion about Trudjman (but there are reasons enough to
suspect it).
I did not claim I have an wxplanation for anyone's attitude in the
conflict and I do believe Bosnian Serbs are guilty (the other sides
in the conflict are, too).  My point was that it is ironical to
see so many Jews siding with the Croatian side, when Croatians
chose to elect someone who might be an antisemite and when Croatians
seem to be starting a revisionist treatment of the Holocaust (the
Croatia chapter).  Maybe other Jews don't care, but personally I am
not willing to side with those that have such attitude about our
history.

Rad
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Judaism - one or many? (was Re: targeting Jews (was Re: more of ...))
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:24:10 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <94159@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
>In article <57357@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>>We know from the writings of many that there was no single Judaism near
>>the end of the time of the Temple.

>This, I believe, is a delicate issue. For example, I do not think it would be
>justified at the time of Shamai and Hillel to say there were two judaisms: one
>according to Beit Shamai and one according to Beit Hillel.

This is not at all what I meant, nor what was written in many places.
Hillel and Shammai were both Pharisees; there were several other sects,
some of which we know, which had considerably different views, and all
were considered Jewish.

It would be very interesting indeed if we could find out the details 
of the Priestly party, the Sadducees.  We have found out a little about
the Essenes.  I believe others were mentioned.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: thanks (Re: Jewish friends - help!)
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:13:20 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: allen@golem.ssc.gov (Michael Allen)

In article <ALLEN.92Aug12112203@golem.ssc.gov>, allen@golem (Michael Allen) writes:
>2)  Since the watermelon and knife are cold, and watermelon is not
>particularly spicy, I don't think this is an issue any way.

Cold kelim in general are not a problem, but knives are an exception.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: is the hebrew language a new language?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:12:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.104433.16654@discus.technion.ac.il> ben@ccvs1.technion.ac.il (Ben Pashkoff) writes:
>
>In article <4115@bimacs.BITNET>, rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:
>
>|>'Hebraicised' his name, eg. David Grynbaum=David ben-Gurion, Golda
>
>Sorry, I believe that Ben-Gurions' original name was Guren, not Green or
>Grynbaum as was thought.

The difference might be in the transliteration.  However, according to
Shabtai Teveth, B-G's biographer, his original surname was Green.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rmt51@cas.org (Rick Turkel)
Subject: RE: Jewish friends - help!
Reply-To: rmt51@cas.org
Organization: S.W.I.G.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:53:23 GMT

In article <PukmPB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de>, tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
(Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
|> Today I invited our Chasan and I spoke with him about the problematic
|> if some-
|> body who doesn't hold a jewish (kosher) home invites an orthodox Jew at
|> his/her
|> place. He told me different ways on how to do it (all of them already
|> mentioned
|> in this board). Then he said also something that astonished me: I don't
|> need to
|> have paper plates if I have glass plates because  glass is always
|> kosher. When
|> I asked him what if the plate was used before with treife food,for
|> example with
|> pork meat, he told me that Ijust need to wash it with soap and water.
|> In case
|> this is true: can somebody explain me this? 
|>                                                  Toda raba
|>                                                                 
|> Manfredo
|> 
|>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
|>   Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL :
|> tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
|>   Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40) 
|> 27.42.27
|>   2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40)
|> 270.53.09
|> 
|>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Glass presents a nonporous surface, so if the vessel is not used for
cooking,
it doesn't absorb any of the the tarfus.  Therefore, soap and water is
adequate for cleaning.  This does not apply if the vessel is used for
cooking,
since some tarfus may get "baked into" the surface.
-- 
Rick Turkel           (___  ____ _  _  _  _  _     _  ___   _  _ _  ___
(rmt51@cas.org)           )    |  |  \  )  |/ \     |    |   |  \_)    |
(rmt51@cas.bitnet)       /     | _| __)/   | __)    | ___|_  | _( \    |
			Ein navi be`iro.            |
From: ai726@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alice Schubach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Advertising on the Net - NOTES FROM A SEALED ROOM
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:25:55 GMT
Reply-To: ai726@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alice Schubach)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, goer@ellis.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) says:

>mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
>
>>Welcome to soc.culture.jewish, where you can flame away at anyone
>>who's handy. Moral superiority comes cheap in these parts.
>
>I guess I'm handy, and you're superior.  Indeed, welcome to soc.
>culture.jewish.  Many thanks for another useful contribution to
>the ongoing debate over commercialism on the net.
>
>-- 
>
>   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
>   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
>
Richard, why don't you just admit you overreacted to Bob's announcement?
His book announcement fits any "common sense" approach to the purpose of
this group, even though we could find a technicality to "nail him" with,
if we tried hard enough.

It wasn't obnoxious commercialism, but an announcement of something that
we would all be interested in!

Lighten up ...

Alice
--
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: become jewish ?
Date: 20 Aug 92 12:35:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <1992Aug19.033219.10377@sarah.albany.edu>, mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
> In article <1992Aug18.212238.12197@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
> >My point was that there may be a tribal element to Judaism
> >(or flavors of Jewish culture) that
> >may have transcended the halachic "rules".
> 
> Ah! I thought you were raising an issue of the acceptance of the halachic
> authenticity of the ancestry of certain groups. That would have
> surprised me. 
> 
> The tribalism you mention is indeed present in more than one group of
> Jews. For instance, I've heard people say that German Jews weren't
> "Jews."
> 

Actually, this is part of the reason I am sure.  My own readings
have convinced me that lots of missionizing did indeed occur
in Europe as well as Spain, so that all European and North African
Jews are of mixed origin, part Judaean part European.  I believe
the Khazar hypothesis is exaggerated, although there is probably
some truth in it.  In each case it was probably halachically ok
since the conversions were done properly but there is
some doubt as to what extent Roman neolytes joined
the northward stream of Jews into Central Europe.
(Neolytes were Judeo sympathizers who emulated Jews but
never converted completely in Roman times roughly through
the 5th century - as opposed to Proselytes)


		Seth Rosenthal