HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: This is *not* soc.culture.american
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:46:23 GMT



Although I am also named Suzanne, and perfectly happy to be an American, quite
frankly, if I had wanted to read soc.culture.usa (or whatever it is) I would
have subscribed to it.

How about those who want to ramble/rant on about this subject either take it
to email, or to whatever newsgroup it belongs in? As you say in England, 
Matthew, Give It A Rest.

Suze

trifid@agora.rain.com
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Keywords: haggis
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:54:17 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Oct5.044335.24818@netcom.com> eamon@netcom.com (Charles E Taggart) writes:
>Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell wrote:
>
>>Where/how can I get hold of some haggis for this year's Burns Night,
>>since the Scottish friend who got his mum to send him some (marked
>>"Confectionary") for the past 2 yrs. is now in Japan--? I doubt VERY
>>much if American butchers would supply the traditional ingredients,
>>which is also why it's so hard to obtain here--I can't ask for it at our
>>local Giant Eagle Supermarket.
>
>I heard a story recently (perhaps apocryphal) that a group of Scots and other
>Burns aficionadoes tried to get some haggis sent over for their Rabbie
>Burns Night celebration, but the U.S. Department of Agriculture and U.S.
>Customs refused to admit the haggis into the country, on grounds that it
>was "unfit for human consumption" by U.S.D.A. standards.

McSweens, Bruntsfield Place, Edinburgh do mail order ( vacuum-packed )
but not to the US, as the US customs regulations don't let it in. I think
most countries have similar rules, you're not supposed to bring
sausages or "cooked meats" into the UK.


They didn't know if the US would let veggie haggises ( YUM!) in.


M









--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: hb0s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Heather L. Broud)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: harness ornaments?
Date: 26 Sep 92 22:06:24 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Can anyone give me more information about ancient celtic ornaments
called harness dics or harness rings?  Unless you think this subject is
of general interest, just send me email.  Thanks.
--- Heather
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: niall@nmsu.edu (Niall Graham)
Subject: Re: But I like Television Evangelists
Organization: Computing Research Lab
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 22:23:09 GMT

In response to the lovely mail I've been receiving recently:

The purpose of my original post was a flippant
non-inflammatory attempt to convince others here to lighten up,
first, by drawing attention to the original subject matter that
prompted the current flame war, which is of course completely absurd.
Then without naming names I indicated that the flaming
was boring to the rest of us.
How ironic that the flames have continued to escalate, while I find 
myself explaining away a light-hearted attempt to end it!

I find the spontaneous polarization that manifests itself here
(with jaded regularity) a curious social phenomenon, especially
since most posters are probably quite moderate. 
It is a form of collective stupidity that deserves serious
study by sociologists.  It may well be that this simple
pattern of escalating hostilities  based on misunderstanding  
and touchiness is the root of all conflict.
--

Niall Graham     "We live in an age that reads too much to be wise,
Los Alamos            and that thinks too much to be beautiful"
                                                        Oscar Wilde
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Date: 28 Sep 92 12:47:32 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Sep25.163221.24445@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>From article <1992Sep25.083405.28900@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
>> From: shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
>> 
>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  We are VERY
>>>proud of America and what the country and we stand for.  There is
>>>NOTHING wrong for standing up for what you believe in.
>> 
>> Well, I think this proves my point about American nationalism.
>> If someone in Britain were to say "We are VERY proud of Britain
>> and what the country and we stand for. There is NOTHING wrong
>> for standing up for what you believe in", we would immediately
>> suspect that person of being a member of an extreme right-wing
>> nationalist political party. In Britain we find that level of
>> nationalism embarassing.
>> 
>
>I also suspect anyone who is willing to pledge allegence to a flag.


I'm just back from Denmark where one sometimes sees houses with flagpoles in 
the gardens flying the Danish flag, ot sometimes a red and white
streamer that I suppose represents the Danish flag.


I remember seeing this in Switzerland, Austria and Turkey when I visited
those countries. Certainly, as mmh syas, if anyone un the UK had the
Union Jack in their garden, you'd suspect them of being some kind of
fascist loony. Only the Queen has a flag in her garden, which proves my
point rather well :-)


Perhaps the people flying these flags are some kind of elected officials
or something. Does anyone know? I've never seen such displays in France
or Ireland.

M









--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: g90c5787@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MS S WILSON-CROSS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: celtic "imp" tree??
Summary: Medieval literature reference
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:44:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: giraffe.g90c5787.7.717612298
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

I'm studying a medieval poem called *Sir Orfeo* which is laden with Celtic 
references and symbolism.  One feature of it puzzles me: a queen 
is taken away by the faeries while she is lying underneath an "imp tree," 
and the poet reiterates this a number of times.  Can anyone perhaps clarify 
the Celtic reference here?  All that I know is that it's Celtic. Is it 
something to do with faerie?  Does it appear anywhere else?  Does it *mean*
anything?!
Thanks!
Sara
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: phys218@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:07:20 GMT

Francois Fischer asked, "Where the scottish highlands's Picts related to
the Pictonii,a gallic tribe who lived in the area aroud Poitiers ???"

Apart from a possible common Celticity, not so far as we know.  The
Picts are so called because they were given a name in Latin which
referred to their pratice of painting their skins.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyndon Watson                              L.Watson@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: worden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (elizabeth worden)
Subject: Re: Kilt availability.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:32:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep16.115343.23722@rdg.dec.com> cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep16.093629.376@st-andrews.ac.uk>, rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes...
>>Well - I am sure Mona will be onto this one too!!
>> 
>>small peat flame on *****
>> 
>>COME ON CRAIG - where do you get that outdated notion that 'only
>>men wear kilts!!!!' - perhaps in some kind of primeavil eden that
>>was scotland a long time ago!!! Girls/women have been wearing kilts
>>since Victorian times - see many bonny pictures of the old Queen and
>>kiddies in Balmoral, and that is about as authentic as the kilts any
>>scotsman wears today!!! And all female dancing competitors have a form
>>of kilt to wear for highland games, and most scottish woolen shops
>>sell female kilts(even in bold heathery shades..) In fact the cheapest
>
>I said that men wear kilts, and women wear kilted skirts. Your description
>of a female kilt, is the kilted skirt.
>
>The OED says under Kilt... "part of Highland man's dress. Similar garment worn
>by children and women". ie. Men wear kilts, women wear something similar,
>this being a kilted skirt
>
>
>Craig
>

Craig, you certainly are not listening very well!  In pipe bands, the
kilts worn by members, male and female members, that is members of
EITHER gender, do not differ at all!  The very same identical kilt
may be passed from a male who has outgrown it to a female piper...
these are NOT kilted skirts that you so desire to see women wear,
but the identical garment worn by males.... namely KILTS.  You really
need to test reality by using your eyes carefully the next time you
see a pipe band.  For information, since you seem to not know about
these things, both genders even tend to wear the same thing under their
kilts... boxer shorts in wild prints!


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: Brit Bashing
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:51:40 GMT

 Being half Irish, half German and all American I think Germany and 
 Ireland should unite.With their combined powers they could bring order
 to Europe and restore their rightful place as rulers of the greatest
 nation known to man.Being the king,chosen by god(of course), I would
 set forth a rule by which every man woman and child would obey or die
 by the sword.    WO--- I think I've been watching too much "Excalibur"
 or was it" Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail", anyway, I regret
 having offended any patriots or nationalists from countries other than
 Ireland or Germany.By the way, did anyone ever say" I regret that I have
 but one life to give for my country" about England?
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Seamus Heaney
Date: 30 Sep 92 10:52:30 GMT
Organization: Not St. Andrews University


Seamus Heany is a professor of English at either Oxford or Cambridge.
Why not send a copy of your letter to both universities??
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Any information on "Black Irish" is needed.
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 12:42:44 GMT



How about "The Black Irish are the remnant of the Picts"?

(And so are the darker Scots...)

Suze
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: European superiority
Date: 4 Oct 92 19:54:56 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Oct4.011002.12125@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
> As to comments about this not being appropriate s.c.c material, I would
> suggest that s.c.c be view as a forum where people from (or have a link
> with) Ireland, Scotland, Walse, Breton, etc. can discuss topics that
> affect their lives, and the role that the US has on the culture of these
> lands is certainly worth discussing.

 I'm not sure what you are trying to say here - if I read this correctly you
seem to be implying that US-bashing is OK, but defending those attacks is
not appropriate - is that right? So, someone from the UK can accuse the US
of being responsible for the state of Celtic culture today but an American
cannot respond to those charges? 

			gln
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:35:10 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Oct4.195647.4319@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

   From article <1992Oct4.082321.3797@rdg.dec.com>, by cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn):
   > 
   > Irn Bru
   >

   This should obviously carry a Government Health Warning, since increased
   levels of iron in the blood has been linked with heart attacks. There we
   now have a discussion going in this group about Irn Bru.

They have to call it "Irn Bru" because it doesn't have iron in it any more.
It used to be called "Iron Brew".

For those that don't know, it's a type of fizzy soft drink, or soda.  Very
sweet and sugary.  Which means that it's still bad for you...
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Americans! *smile*
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:15:51 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (starbuck)
>In article <1992Sep28.101050.11573@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew >Huntbach) writes:
>
>-No it is not. It is rooted in the fact that we have seen how
>-nationalism has contributed to wars, death, imperialistic
>-conquest, suppression of minorities, racism and many other evils.
>-Nationalism of the sort which Americans find natural and
>-unexceptional is in Europe regarded as the height of bad
>-manners, boorish and dangerous.
>-
>-Matthew Huntbach
>
>It might be of benifit to you to read some European history.  I would start
>with the histroy of Britian in India, then perhaps the history of Germany.
>If you want examples of racism, suppression of minorities, mperialistic
>conquest, war, and many other evils you'll find them all in your own history.
>
>starbuck

With due apologies to those who have complained this debate has
gone on for far too long, I really must flag this as a
remarkable posting. I thought that I, and other Europeans, have
made it crystal clear that the reason we are suspicious of
nationalistic effusions, which appears to be more widespread in the USA
than here is precisely because of the evils we've seen
nationalism lead to in our own history.

Yet here comes "starbuck" who *still* supposes that the
suspicion we therefore express at USA nationalism is due to our
being raving patriots, blind to the evils of our own past.
"starbuck" appears to be one of those who is unable even to
consider the possibility that people in other countries may not
be so blindly nationalistic as some Americans are in theirs.

Attempting to bring this back to soc.culture.celtic, this sort
of attitude has often coloured debates on subjects like
Northern Ireland. I have often posted factual comments on these
matters, only to have it thrown back in my face that because I
live in the UK I must be a raving UK-patriot, and therefore my
postings must be full of nationalistic claptrap.

Matthew Huntbach
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:6444 rec.music.folk:6760 rec.folk-dancing:1839
From: mike@biosun.lbl.gov (Mike Collier)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.folk,rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Celtic, esp Irish, activities in Boston next weekend
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic
Date: 3 Oct 1992 06:32:27 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.253.249
Keywords: Celtic, Boston

	I will be in Boston next weekend, from Sat, Oct 10, to Wed, Oct 14.
From Sat evening to Mon night my time is my own. I have a job interview on
Tues and Wed.  (So it's possible I could be moving to Boston.)

	So I would like to find any Celtic, esp Irish activities going on next
weekend.  I am especially interested in Irish dance, either sets or ceili.  
Then is there truly traditional Irish music happening either in good pubs or
concerts?  I would also be interested in any gatherings of Irish gaelic
speakers (although I'm only a learner myself) or lectures on subjects of Celtic
interest.

	Any leads would be appreciated.  Please send e-mail.  Many thanks to
anyone who can help.  Go raibh mi/le maith agaibh.

						Sla/n anois,
						Michael Collier
						jmcollier@lbl.gov
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 2 Oct 92 23:56:30 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <suzanne.86@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com>, suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett) writes:
>   Thanks for your post.  I am an American, and I am *NOT* proud to be 
> associated with posters like gln who epitomize what constitutes true Ugly 
> American behavior.  Surely he will be more at home on another board?

 Surely I could care less. Go to another board? Because you don't like what I
have to say? My my - for such a large group of enlightened souls who have
risen above the physical world of the rest of us, you folks sure don't care 
hearing opposing views do you? Hypocrites...


			gln
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Vincent Hallinan; Jimmy Smyth
Date: 4 Oct 1992 18:23:54 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Excerpts from a local (SF Bay Area) newspaper
1. Vincent Hallinan (1897-1992) dies
"Attorney Vincent Hallinan, whose defense of progressive causes
earned him several jail terms & a long-shot run at the US presidency,
died Fri at his home.  He was 95 [wire service can't do math]....
[his] fabled health had been failing for several months, his son Conn
said....

"Born Dec 16 1897, Hallinan was already a famous trial lawyer when
in 1950 he took on his most notorious case, the defense of Harry
Bridges, an Australian-born labor leader the [US] government wanted
to deport for lying about membership in the Communist Party.

"Bridges was convicted by a federal court, but his case was eventually
reversed by the US Supreme Court.

"The case cost Hallinan much of his busness, exposed him & his wife to
contempt, & landed him in federal prison for contempt.  Bridges, who
died in 1990, never served time.

"'He's always bragged about the fact that he went to jail & Harry
Bridges didn't.  He said that's what lawyers were all about,'
Conn Hallinan said.  'At a time when people ran & at a time when
people shut up , he didn't.'

"Hallinan was still in jail when he ran for president on the Progressive
Party ticket in 1952.  He got 140023 votes...."

[He also served 18 mos in 1954 for tax evasion & was subsequently
disbarred, but sometime in the late '50's was returned to practice.]

The above is all from  an AP story.  Hallinan was the son of an 
Irish immigrant who was reputedly wanted by the British -- I've
heard the story but I'm fuzzy on the details so I won't post it
unless I can find it in print.   Hallinan is also the father of
SF Supervisor [like an alderman or city councilman] Terence Hallinan,
probably the "leftest" of the lot.

2. Bail revoked for Jimmy Smyth
9th US Circuit (SF) Court of Appeals reversed itself Fri in a 2-1
decision & revoked Smyth's $1.5M bail.  "Noting the law allows bail
for extradition cases only in special circumstances" the judges
decided such circumstances didn't pertain to this case.  A federal
judge refused later to jail Smyth immediately, "noting the appeals
court order would not take effect for 21 days under standard court
procedures [which give the losing side the chance to appeal].  Federal
prosecutors have asked the court to amend its order so it could take
effect immediately."  [About which I have no further info at the
moment.]
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Americans! *smile*
From: phys218@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:13:03 GMT
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

Charlie Lear's comments about the idiots who just roll up to the ferries
and expect to get their cars on without a booking are spot on.  Every
year television shows us these pathetic creatures living in their cars
for days on end, and trying to blame the Railways the unions, anyone but
themselves, for their own stupidity.

For the poster who first asked - you can just walk on without a booking
if you have no vehicle; you can probably get a bicycle or motorcycle on
without a booking; but don't count on getting a car or anything larger
on the ferry without booking in advance.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyndon Watson                              L.Watson@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:07:15 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620


dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) rebuts:
> ulick@gershwin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) who slags off Gary spain:
       [ ^^^^^^ very cultured set of host names at your site, Ulick :-)]
>>Really?  Anyone who has read this group for a while would hardly be surprised.
>>Gary attempts to hide his anglophilic side by having a seemingly unnatural
>>hatred for the English International soccer team, which of course, he insists
>>on calling Football with a rather venomous zeal. 
> 
> [Personal invective directed at Gary Spain deleted]
> 
> Given that about the only people on this earth who refer to football as 'soccer'
> are Americans, your creating a straw man Ullick. It's football in just about
> every European country as well as South American countries.

> 
> Dave
> -- 

To be fair to Ulick (why, when he isn't being fair to Gary?), this
isn't quite correct. Off the top of my head, I can think of 5
completely different types of ``football'', and that's without
distinguishing between rugby league and rugby union. It is true
that one of these games is more popular than the others on an
international basis, but there are pockets of the world,
insignificant perhaps from the point of view of the Home Counties
(Glasgow annex ;-) ), where the hegemony of this game is not
completely unquestioned. 

Hard as it may be to believe, there are places where it is
necessary for clarity of expression to call soccer something other
than football. And indeed, in Ireland if one were to say
``football'' outside a clearly soccer-related context, the chances
are that Gaelic football is meant (as in ``football or hurling'').
Gary Spain, on the other hand, lives and breathes soccer, and in
that world there is only one type of ``football'' acknowledged.

For complete unambiguity is has to be ``soccer or Gaa'' (latter
word pronounced as written).

(Mind you, no one I know here in England talks about either
football or soccer. It's always ``footie''.)

Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642
Oxford OX1 1NF
United Kingdom