From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: Is it Christian values or chavinism?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 06:11:00 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

<nyikos.717627005@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
><1992Sep25.211600.23804@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) :
>><1992Sep18.233054.14674@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) said:
>>>From article by iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski):
>>>> In article mprc@troi.cc.rochester.edu (M. Price) writes:

[Restorations:]

>>>>>    <...> the fact that Suzanne
>>>>>used the word "crucified" to refer to the justifiable tongue-lashing
>>>>>Christ gave those who debased His temple trivializes the agony and
>>>>>suffering He underwent in His death and spiritual separation from His
>>>>>Father.

>>Suzanne seems to ignore the castigation of other Christians who take her
>>to task for trivializing their god's contributions.  I notice she doesn't
>>apologize for it.

[End of restorations.]

>And is M. Price really a Christian?  Who are the others who have
>"castigated" Suzanne, and is any of them really a Christian?

Oh geez.  Here we go again: "*_THEY_* aren't *REAL* Christians, not like
Billy Joe Bob and me."

>If you insist on perpetuating this charade, go ahead, but tell the "other
>Christians" to be prepared
>to "defend Christianity" against atheists as well as actual Christians
>like Suzanne.  Otherwise everyone will see how hollow their "Christianity"
>really is.

[Restoration of Gordon's words, repeated.]

>>Suzanne seems to ignore the castigation of other Christians who take her
>>to task for trivializing their god's contributions.  I notice she doesn't
>>apologize for it.

[End of restoration.  Note the feigned ignorance ("What cookies?") 
that follows:]

Huh?  Which "other Christians" should I be telling, and why should I tell
them to "defend Christianity" against me?

[Restorations, beginning with the words of alt.atheist Ivan and 
continuing with Suzanne's vigorous rejoinder:]

>>>> I don't think I'm the only one here (I'm posting from alt.atheism) who
>>>> is tired of this talk about the "agony", "suffering", and "death" of
>>>> Jesus from Nazareth.  (Yes, I mean all those quotation marks).
>>>> ...
>>>> Rightly so.  Go ahead, prove that he suffered.  Only be sure to make
>>>> it quite clear that he didn't just fake suffering (for whatever purpose).
>>
>>>Oh, yeah, you mean like the way unborn babies "fake" their suffering when
>>>they are ripped limb from limb via abortion.

[End of restorations.]

>>>Get real.
>
>>Indeed.  I suggest you take that advice.  The suffering of the mythical
>>"unborn baby" is on par with the "suffering" of the mythical Mermaid by the
>>pollution of the oceans, or the "suffering" of mythical Pink Elephants
>>that die in car crashes with drunk drivers.
>
>If Suzanne chooses to regard a fetus as an unborn baby, her choice should
>not be trivialized in this manner.

I have no problem with how Suzanne personally chooses to regard a fetus.
I have a problem with Suzanne's position that everyone should be forced by
law to abide by her views at the loss of personal freedoms.

>I note your failure to address the question of whether Christ faked his
>suffering.  

Don't get your PhD in a twist, Peter.  I wasn't interested in addressing
that portion of the issue.  I've addressed that aspect far more times in
these groups then I care to remember, always with the same stammering
apologetic answers from people perhaps like yourself - you know, pompous
and arrogant.

>            Since you are, by your .sig, a professional atheist,
> I suggest you get the
>"Christians" who "castigated" Suzanne to address it.  Note especially
>how M. Price uses the terms "trivializes the agony and suffering."

Why would I want to get the "Christians" to address it?  I've addressed it
myself before.

[rest of Gordon's post deleted]

Here he may be excused for having forgotten what I wrote earlier and
he himself failed to delete, "Otherwise everyone will see how hollow
their Christianity really is."  Still, I believe even here, he knows
what is being talked about: the mendacity of M. Price, who feigned
indignation over something Suzanne said in order to justify his
demand for an apology.

Finally, I continue to be deeply offended by the cavalier way in which 
Storga dismisses the very possible suffering of very real fetuses by 
comparing it to the "suffering" of mythical creatures, and, in
another post, to the sizzling of bacon in frying pans. 

Peter Nyikos


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