HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ltt75326@acuvax.acu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: rosenfield's education question
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:19:07 -0600
Organization: Abilene Christian University

In article <1471700236@igc.apc.org>, Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org> writes:
...  as more and more people
> learn to read and have access to viewpoints outside their household,
> children will challenge the authority of their parents to
> damage them.
> 
> Is this a good thing or bad? what do you think?
> 
> Jim
>

Jim, the topic here is close to my heart because I witnessed this
happening on the coast of Kenya. I think its a very rare case of
circumstances when education becomes a bad thing, yet if the 
education is so diatructive to a cultural harmony that has been in
existence so long, what shall we say? I believe the problem is that
the West can most assuredly educate people but cannot help at all with
a value system to live by. Much of traditional African education is 
"values" education - teaching a child what it means to be a member
of their society. The things such as farming, animal tending, and
goods making (baskets, uteniels, weapons) cannot even be separated
for the culture's values; their values dictate how, when, and why
those things are done.
When we pit Western education with traditional African education we 
create a situation where the African values are lost. Capitalism says
you make YOUR money to take care of YOURSELF (also the West's value)
where the African is raised to know how to support the family. I 
think what I'm trying to say is that "the baby gets thrown out with 
the bath water." Western education succeeds in not only releasing the 
African from a narrow perspective on agriculture, say, but also from
the family and village values.

Can we give a Western education without instilling the materialism
and destructive individualism we, as a society, are drowning in?

Mulungu anmanya,

L.T.
From: barnhart@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Mr. Aaron Barnhart)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: IPS:SOUTH AFRICA: ANC LOOKS FORWARD TO COOPERATION WITH CLINTON
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:36:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: ddsw1.BxMHDG.2Fv
Organization: Evanston, Illinois, U.S.A.

Copyright Inter Press Service 1992, all rights reserved.  Permission to re-
print within 7 days of original date only with permission from 'newsdesk'.

Area: Africa, southern
Reference: North America
Title: SOUTH AFRICA: ANC LOOKS FORWARD TO COOPERATION WITH CLINTON


johannesburg, nov 4 (ips) -- both the african national congress
and the government of south africa wednesday welcomed the
outcome of tuesday's presidential elections in the united
states.

south african president frederik de klerk said he was
''looking forward to continued good relations with the united
states''.

''i don't expect any deterioration in relations with the
united states'', de klerk told journalists.

meanwhile, anc president nelson mandela has sent a letter of
congratulations to u.s. president-elect bill clinton and another
of sympathy to outgoing president george bush.

in his messages, mandela said he hoped good relations with
the u.s. would continue, particularly with regard to ''the
accomplishment of the common objectives of ending the system of
apartheid and transforming south africa into a non-racial,
non-sexist democracy''.

many analysts here do not predict a radical change in u.s.
policy towards south africa, especially with regard to clinton's
likely focus on domestic issues, but they see an end to the
''common vision'' between the u.s. and south african
governments.

while things would likely stay the same, south african
ambassador to the u.s. harry schwarz said, the u.s. government
was likely to give more of an ear to the anc, and less to the
conservative inkatha freedom party.

inkatha leader chief mangosuthu buthelezi said the president-
elect was ''decidedly the choice of the american people''.

intimating a concern at likely u.s. distancing from the
inkatha movement, buthelezi said he hoped clinton would listen
to representations from the zulu political organisation.

andries beyers, leader of the south african rightwing
''volksunie'' movement said the u.s. electoral outcome would
signal increased ''interference in south africa's negotiations
process'' towards majority rule.

but the south african chamber of business said in a statement
that the u.s. democratic party would take a tougher stance on
the need for political progress in south africa ''by delaying
the further normalisation of u.s.-south africa relations.
(end/ips/pg/ar/92)
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:26 PST
Subject: Re: Genital Mutilation (girls)
Nf-ID: #R:hpcuhe.cup.hp.com:35040002:cdp:1471700248:000:304
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Nov 11 20:26:00 1992


I wonder if you would mind saying a bit about your background,
from whence you speak with such authority, et al?  I ask because
you speak for me, here, and I have been taken to task for not having
any crredentials to speak on this subject in the context of
African culture (like "how would *you* know?).

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: zozo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Fundi Mbangi)
Subject: Re: Zulu word
Keywords: translation
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 08:35:04 GMT

In article <1d5ltbINN2jd@chervil.csv.warwick.ac.uk> phudv@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr R B Birkby) writes:
>
>Can anyone tell me what the Zulu word Thundeka or Thundeha is in English.
 
Are you sure that's not Thandeka? If so, then it means loveable in both Zulu
and Xhosa.
>
>Thanks.
......so who's she???

--
Fundisile


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Euthanesia and the wrongless West.
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:27:58 GMT

In article <9152@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.033432.9040@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas) writes:
>>the Somali government today, like the Ethiopian government a while back, is
>>letting a civil war use up its resources, leading to the death of innocent
>>children and old people. East=West=North=South. Let's hope that the good
>
>
>And as with  most evil in Africa OFCOURSE the West is at the root of the matter.
>In the colonial days, they divided BOTH Ethiopia and Somalia between England an
>d Italy. By the end of this evil rule the country could not exist as one. Civil
>war was a consequence of their noble effort at reunification. It might be appro
>priate to point out their role in execerbating both disasters......
>

      Yep, I totally agree. Many of the current problems of Many African
countries are due to colonization. Certainly the establishment of Western
multinationals creates a lot of pressure on the environment and does not
return much to the population in terms of wages. The new practice of disposing
of Western Toxic Waste by dumping them in 'developing countries' is equal-
ly disgusting. One can also point out many political problems which are
Western-borne such as guerilla groups funded by the U.S. and well, everyone
should be aware that current problems in Algeria are due to it being colonized
by the French a while back.
       Colonial history further poses problems in the West. As Western cultures
colonized others and bragged about their so-called superiority, some of the
colonized people did start thinking that these cultures might be better. At
least they were doing better economically. One of the results of this is
obviously emigration from 'developing countries' into Western ones. This 
may not have been a problem if the West was as prosperous as it once was. The
current economic situation with high unemployment however strains social
relations that explode in fascism: Le Pen, Rostock (Pogrom), KKK... And the
violence is performed on easily targetted people: those with an accent and
those of color. The West should pay for colonization as the Germans pay for
the Holocaust.


   H.
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: male circumcision (was Re: Female Circumcision)
Date: 8 Nov 1992 07:08:46 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland College Park
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: next02wor.wam.umd.edu

In article <1992Nov8.050623.16149@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>  
montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas) writes:
> In article <BxDKs4.B8E@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  
kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov8.013724.14234@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>  
montas@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Hubert J Montas) writes:
> >
> >[stuff deleted]
>      
stuff deleted to save space..........
        It is clear from what I wrote, that I didn't have the choice.
> Furthermore, I never said that It was an enjoyable experience, but only  
that
> I don't remember it well enough to assess the pain it may have caused  
me.
> I nevertheless agree with you to the effect that babies do not have  
rights
> anywhere on this planet. Even minors have only a few rights! With  
respect
> to circumcision by choice, I've never heard of it either. Some cultures  
do
> it to 12 year old boys (Jewish I think), but there is no element of  
choice
> involved. 
It's not us. Jewish babies are circumcised at the age of eight days (the  
ceremony os called a bris, or b'rith milah. The individual performing the  
circumcision is called a mohel.) as a mark of the covenant between God and  
the Jewish people, exceptions being made in cases where it is judged the  
child is not capable of dealing with said circumcision (and, in fact, the  
procedure may be postponed indefintely). The only case in which a twelve  
year old might get circumcized is one in which the child converts to  
Judaism and has not yet been circumcized (though this may not be true of  
Conservative and Reform branches, where a "symbolic" circumcision may be  
all that is required.).
	As far as choice in circumcision is concerned, while the child  
concerned may not have much in the way of choice, the parent s of th  
echild most certainly do have a choice. Parents in th eWest can , as I've  
pointed out, elect NOT to have a child circumcized, without any loss of  
standing in the community or fear of reprisal.



shalom
jeff

"Let no one build walls to divide us
Walls of hatred nor walls of stone
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us
We'll live together or we'll die alone"
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Somalia: newsbrief
Date: 11 Nov 1992 04:23:09 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

UN troops took positions at the airport in Mogadishu today...
The airport is to be "secured" by 500 Pakistani troops
and local personnel will be responsible for safeguarding
distribution(?)...

This development coincides with the arrival of the brand
new UN special rep. Mr Kittani...


-- 
lk(with the man in the yellow hat)              /\   /\
                                               /  \_/  \ 
%(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)                  /         \
%      llk@unh.edu         %                 /           \
%    llk@anchor.unh.edu    %             \__              __/ 
%  FAX : (603) 862 - 4096  %           Hamba  Ine,  Adada   Cha! 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
From: phudv@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr R B Birkby)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Zulu word
Date: 7 Nov 1992 16:43:21 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: thyme.csv.warwick.ac.uk
Keywords: Zulu


In article <1992Nov7.083504.22261@leland.Stanford.EDU>
 news@leland.Stanford.EDU (Mr News) writes:
>
>>Can anyone tell me what the Zulu word Thundeka or Thundeha is in English.
 
>Are you sure that's not Thandeka? If so, then it means loveable in both Zulu
>and Xhosa.
>
>>Thanks.
>......so who's she???

You asked for it... here's the story. A friend (girl) at university got a 
letter from a friend who is working as a site geologist at a mine somewhere 
in South Africa. The letter started

>Dear Kate (thandeka - It is a Zulu word and I challenge you to find what it 
>means) Weir.

After searching through the only Zulu dictionary (only English to Zulu) in the 
library she found nothing. Admitadly she was only searching for degrading 
words (eg bitch,slag!) as she new her friend's sense of humour.

After posting the question to this newsgroup and receiving the replys, she is 
rather pleased with the translation!

Thanks for all the replys

Richard Birkby
From: cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za (Chris Scogings)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Is racism "for whites only"?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:29:17 GMT
Organization: Dept. Computer Science, UNP
NNTP-Posting-Host: pc092.cc.unp.ac.za

In article <9207@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:

>Yes they can throw their weight around with their poorer neighbours in West
>Africa, BUT Nigeria has no power even in Southern Africa where I come from.

If you come from Southern Africa, why are you in America?

Do not try to teach a pig to sing
It wastes your time and annoys the pig
                               - Anon
From: imofoke1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Ivan Mofokeng)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Race and attitude (Was Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:18:36 GMT
Reply-To: imofoke1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Ivan Mofokeng)
Organization: Swarthmore College

linda@frcs.Alt.ZA (Linda Jacobson) writes:

[stuff deleted]
> 
> the very least I try to give people a chance, which you appear to
> consider unnecessary. 

thank you for being this considerate, and generous we need more of you to
give us a chance.  only it would be better if we did not have to fight for
our right to self determination, then we would not have to be eternally
greatful to you for pitying us and giving us a chance.
 
> I will continue to say what I please on this net. I'm in no way
> forcing anyone to read what I write, or to do anything I suggest. You
> aren't sacred territory.
> 
agree with you whole-heartedly.  looks like kauta lacks heavily in the area
of tolerance or maybe he enjoys getting y'awl worked up.

> 
> Just label them, John, and then you can spit them out. Just the way
> the apartheid government has been doing for the last 44 years.
> 
not a bad idea seeing as most of them do not object to enjoying the
privilages that comes with te color of their skin.  i mean why enjoy the
benefits when you cannot and do not want to pay the price?

phoka

internet: imofoke1@cc.swarthmore.edu
From: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Paul Mweene (aka Malaka - grin!) and Kauta Kinte
Date: 12 Nov 92 04:07:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: catpe.2856.2B029F70
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/22.5 - Novell User Group, Pretoria RSA

On <10 Nov 1992 22:23> Nick de Kock said to All :

 NdK>It's been a while since I looked here but I was astounded to 
 NdK>see the 
 NdK>volume of pure nonsense, vitriol, nutty racial theories, weird 
 NdK>pseudo-
 NdK>nationalism, bigotry, homophobia, misogyny (that's woman hatred 
 NdK>- for
 NdK>you Malaka), phoney philosophy and crass, gross ignorance 
 NdK>produced by
 NdK>only two people - Malaka and Kauta. 
 NdK>
 NdK>It's like "Son of Winslow Sargeant" and "Bride of Winslow 
 NdK>Sargeant". BTW
 NdK>what ever happened to W.S.? My first reaction is to grab the 
 NdK>old flame-
 NdK>thrower and light up. But no... on second thought it's just a 
 NdK>waste of
 NdK>napalm. No amount of flaming ever made anyone change for the 
 NdK>better.

If you looked a bit more closely you'd see some postings by Winslow Sargeant.

Makala and kauta seem to derive great amusement by pushing wite [sic] South 
Africans' hot buttons. Obviously a rewarding activity, because the response is 
always so immediate and predictable. 




--  
INTERNET: Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
via:  THE CATALYST BBS in Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
       (catpe.alt.za)   +27-41-34-1122 HST or +27-41-34-2859, V32bis & HST.
From: 0112wilz@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (zane wilson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:37:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: concave.0112wilz.720977820
Organization: Computer Science, University of the Witwatersrand

In <9075@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:

>What defensive? Are you crazy ? i OWE YOU ABSOLUTELY NO EXPLANTION. NONE. I havedecided NEVER to declare my position on this issue to any one excerpt my fellow
>brothers and sisters. You will NEVER know what my view is on this issue. So I
>don't have to defend against anything except your continued intrusion into our 
>affairs.

Mmm, funny how people living in Africa are intruding in soc.culture.african,
and are in fact being accused of interfering by people *not* living in
Africa. It seems to me that this group is for discussing culture in Africa
(correct me if I'm wrong), and as such white people form just as much
a part of the culture in Africa as the black, coloured, asian and all 
others do.

>ought to explain homosexuality to me. I have no interest in other people's culture and neither should you.

Ie: "I am close-minded, refuse to have anything to do with you because you
     are the wrong colour". My, my, what a racist you are.

>As for the so-called men you are talking about, they are all white South Africans who even if they could somehow remove the log in front of their faces would
>neither be allowed to contribute nor be present  when we were discussing our
>buisness.

Again, since when is African culture the issue of African expatriots living
abroad, but not the issue for people actually *living* in Africa?

(BTW: Hi Scott!)
From: barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Is racism "for whites only"? they are after my brother
Date: 5 Nov 92 12:41:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: daisy.1damo3INNdof
Organization: Dept. Elec. Eng., Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: daisy.ee.und.ac.za

In article <9073@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>,
pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:
> Racism is a SYSTEM of predjudice upheld by military and economic power.

That's what I call "institutionalised racism", of which apartheid is a
prime example.  What I call "racism" is prejudice on the basis of race.

--apb
Alan Barrett, Dept. of Electronic Eng., Univ. of Natal, Durban, South Africa
RFC822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za                    Bang: m2xenix!undeed!barrett
From: hsr@eng.cam.ac.uk (Haile Selassie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: ZAMBIA - need info
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:42:37 GMT
Reply-To: hsr@eng.cam.ac.uk
Organization: University of Cambridge

The university of Zambia email address is bennet@f1.n761.z5.fidonet.org
You may ask the director computer centre Mr Mark Bennet for
assistance. He could give you other addresses.  The address for
the engineering dept is postmaster@p3.f1.n761.z5.fidonet.org
They have addresses for all sections and lecturers may be contacted on the
same.
HSR
response to

In article 909@crc.ac.uk, fkhurshi@crc.ac.uk (farha) writes:
>
>Dear netters,
>
>Can anyone give me any info on Scientific  institutions or research 
>companies in Zambia? Or waht fields of research are  popular there.
>If not can you point me in the right direction !
>
>Thanks
>
>..
>
>-- 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 06 Nov 92 18:10 PST
Subject: Re: Female Circumcision
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov2.203329.15042@netnews.lo:1642549663:cdp:1471700227:000:721
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Nov  6 18:10:00 1992


>unkindly punishment....ordeal....

is this generally accepted that the practice is somewhat brutal,
kind of a very harsh slap?  if so, what is the reason for punishing
the young girls?

when i observed my little son's circumcision i had great misgivings,
and as mentoned in earlier material onthis discussion, i went along
with it anyway because....well....they said it was healthier.

i think it is a way for the "grown-ups" to deal with the challenge of
the upstart youth by showing them who's boss, but who the heck knows.

my little boys "procedure" was apparently painless, sterile, done in
hospital, local anesthetic, etc.  so i don't feel i've brutalized him.
i hope he doesn't resent me, later, for this choice.
From: shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Cultural Exclusivity
Date: 6 Nov 1992 19:12:11 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cs.ubc.ca

The last few days we have been having some heated debates
about who is allowed to say what about whose culture. Some
people have been pusing the line that people of one culture
have no right to comment about another culture. To some extent
the argument had been at a fairly abstract level.

However, the issue is one which is one of the key political
issues in South Africa at the moment - "cultural weapons".
The ANC (amongst many many others have been calling for 
the carrying of _all_ weapons in public to be outlawed
(and the laws be enforced). Chief Buthelezi has been arguing
quite strongly that the purpose of this is to destroy
Zulu culture, and that it is the right of every Zulu man
to carry his cultural weapons. King Goodwill has also 
supported this.

So my questions
(1) Is it true that it is an insult to the Zulu nation to
    ban the carrying of weapons in public (like marching
    through the main streets of Johannesburg)
(2) If it is true, does this mean that it is wrong to ban
    the carrying of weapons in public?
(3) Who can take part in this debate? Only Zulu men? Only
    Zulus? Only Zulu-speakers? Only the darkest coloured South
    Africans? All South Africans except the darkest coloured
    ones? All South Africans? Only darkest coloured people
    (including non-South Africans) etc etc.


Scott
Yet another melanin-disadvantaged South African
-- 
---shaze@cs.ubc.ca----------------------------------------------------------
   Scott Hazelhurst    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african