HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex  or ?
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:40 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

In article <1993Jan2.192534.27149@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
#I made one mistake in buying my Ruger "Old Army" cap & ball revolver:
#I got blue steel rather  than stainless. Now every time I take it out
#it has to be cleaned scrupulously or severe rusting will be my reward.

Sorry, but this is a fact of life when shooting blackpowder (or Pyrodex),
whether the gun is blued or stainless.

#I've been shooting only Pyrodex and RWS caps and, if rust is the price
#of using Pyrodex, I'm about ready to do without. Now the manual that
#came with the gun says "Black powder only" and Ruger amended this by
#letter to include Pyrodex. I'm half-way tempted to use a few grains
#of Unique, warning or not. I'm not sure what to do.

Don't even think of using smokeless powder such as Unique in a blackpowder
gun... it's just plain dangerous.

Both blackpowder and Pyrodex are corrosive, the latter a little bit
moreso.  The RWS caps are non-corrosive and are used because you don't
want ANY corrosion in the tiny flash hole (they're also good for making
sure the breech is dry after cleaning).  I like RWS caps.

Stainless guns will corrode just about as easily as blued when you're
shooting blackpowder or Pyrodex... stainless steel is no substitute
for cleaning and sometimes even cleaning isn't enough. The well-cared for 
Smith and Wesson Model 66's (stainless) used by the Florida Marine Patrol 
I saw were pitted beyond belief after a short time of use.  You've started
a hobby that requires _immediate_ and thorough clean-up after use.  The
upside is that hot soapy water does the job better than anything else.

The primary advantage of Pyrodex (besides being less explosive than BP) is
that barrel fouling is greatly reduced so you don't have to swab so much
between shots.  Within the last couple of years there has been an alternative
that I've adopted... a lube put out by Ox-Yoke and also under the Thompson/
Center label.  It's called WonderLube 1000+ or NaturaLube 1000+ depending
on who you buy it from and is a system of using NO petroleum based lube or
cleaners in the gun.  It also eliminates barrel fouling and somewhat reduces
the need to clean immediately after firing.  You can use it with either
blackpowder or Pyrodex, but if you use the latter, you need to clean a bit
sooner.  You clean the gun _thoroughly_ with hot soapy water once to degrease
it and from then on use only the NaturaLube and hot, soapy water (or T/C's
non-petroleum #13 cleaner).  Works as advertised!  Even available on 
prelubed patches and balls.

Even with this, I still clean immediately after shooting.  But I don't worry
if I'm hunting and can't get to it til the next day.  I did before NaturaLube.

Hope this helps,
-- 
Maurice               INTERNET:  lriggins@afit.af.mil
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:28 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1i9p52INNcbi@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
#
#In a previous article, dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) says:
#
## Well, my MAC-11 is 1400 according to the book, and when loaded hot
##cycles even faster.  It's far too fast to be useful as an SMG.  The Army
##supposedly did a study (it's mentioned in Janes, I think) and determined
##the optimum rate of fire for an SMG as 350 RPM.  The Thompson ran about
##450 depending on the variant, and was a close as anyone ever got.
#
#1)  How does a designer retard the rate of fire in a SMG?

By making the bolt heavier, or int the case of the 1928 Thompson, using
some sort of bronze-wedge bolt retarding system.  I've never seen one of
these stripped, and I'm told the mechanism may not really slow the
firing rate.

#2)  How come nobody can get 350 fps?

Nobody wants to build guns with 2-pound bolts.
-----------------deleted--------------------
#

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Self Protect Handgun vs. Shotgun.
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:38 GMT
Organization: Motorola Computer Group Marketing


Talcum powder, huh?  Try same on limestone block.

Glen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Call                          Technical Marketing Systems Engineer
Motorola Computer Systems, Inc.    gcall@phx.mcd.mot.com or mcdapps!gcall
DISCLAIMER: The above is strictly my opinion.  I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MOTOROLA!
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: FAL sporter
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:21 GMT
Organization: who knows

keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes...
#Does anyone have any experience with, knowledge of, or actually own
#one of those FN FAL sporters from Century Arms (International Firearms
#in Canada).  $299 (Cdn) seems pretty cheap for a FAL.  Any idea 
#where they were built.  More importantly for Canadians, are they
#true semi-auto, or were they converted from full auto?

The FNs were made by Enfield in the UK.  According to International Firearms,
these are parts guns but in great condition.    Don't know if they are converted
semi-auto. BTW, the word "Sporter" does not mean the thumb hole stock; these
rifles have original wood.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gattling principle, Minigun
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:39 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

an4405@anon.penet.fi (Physics Smurf) writes:

	Physics Smurf, eh?  Turn to the section where heat is discussed
and I think you'll find the reason.

#I was just wondering why General Electric decided to revive the Gattling
#principle when it designed the M230 Minigun. Was there any specific
#military reason for its re-introduction or did they just think it a good
#idea at the time?

	If you're going to fire a lot, it makes sense to create some
method of getting rid of the heat.  An M-60 can only fire for what, two
minutes before barrel replacement?  Less?  That's at ~600rpm.  Increase
the rate by a factor of ten and you'll see that heat is a big reason to
go with a multi-barreled weapon.  The Gatling gun originally fired half
of its barrels at the same time in some versions, so for a ten-barrel
gun five fired at once, then the other five fired, etc...  All of the
GE guns and variants fire only one barrel at a time that I am aware of.
Obviously, heat is the main reason. (NOTE: not having an original
gun, and there having been different versions, this is not something
I wish to claim as fact, only what I understand as being true of one
or more models of the gun).  Barrel wear is also a problem, but I'd
have to discount it when compared to heat buildup -- 1200 rounds isn't
that much for a barrel to take if it is of decent steel.

#Also, are there any US
#(ex) military personnel out there who have fired a minigun? How does the
#fire rate of it compare to a Hughes chain gun?

	Never have fired a minigun.  However, the standard rate is at
6000 rounds per minute in most GE miniguns, this being variable by
slowing the motor that powers the thing if you want a lower rate.

	What I'm wondering is why the 6000rpm upper limit?  Are there
any that fire faster?  I remember the Phalanx gun could only fire for a
couple of seconds given its ammunition capacity (sounded like a bull
fiddle tuned two octaves down, too!).  All you really need to avoid
is a red-hot barrel (temper gone then) or normal barrel wear.  What
keeps us from firing 12,000rpm for 2 seconds?  Water-cooling would
be rather bulky, hence I can see why it isn't used, but it would keep
most of this heat problem under wraps wouldn't it?  Why not water-cool
mounted weapons then?  It's not like a Phalanx is a particularly
compact weapon system anyway.

	NOTE: I hope we'll keep the moderator happy and concentrate
on the problems of heat buildup, not the Phalanx.  Sci.military is
most likely the group for latter discussions.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >
From: canders%lacerta.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Cliff Anderson CIRT)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AK-47
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:57 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Jerry, be advised that prior to 1986, AK-47 rifles were coming into this
country with bayonet lugs and pistol grips; These are the more expensive
variants and my preference.  The majority of the rifles being sold today
are "post 86" rifles with thumbhole stocks and no bayonet lugs.

I think the best AK's are made by PolyTech.  Their "Legend Series" are milled
receiver rifles.  They even make a National Match Legend rifle where match
grade parts are used.  PolyTech AK's do cost more, ($700-$950) retail!!!

cea.
From: GWH@UH.EDU (Gregory W Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:54:57 GMT
Organization: University of Houston

In article <1993Jan5.010915.28498@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#fountain@bach.udel.edu (Eric Randolp Benson) writes:
#
###	They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
###of more silly.  
#
##Not totally.  They describe the Mini-uzi pistol as having the best
##qualities of an electric drill and a pistol.  At least with .380, you
##don't have quite the recoil problem.
#
#	The mini uzi is also a 9mm blowback, I wasn't aware of any
#.380s by them.   I guess the .380 Cobray makes some sense, but it
#seems if you are going for a smaller caliber you ought to go all

I don't know how much of the thread I've missed, but the .380 Cobray is
what the old Ingram M11 was (if they built a true copy of the M11).
The .380 M11s were "compact" versions of the M10s and had a cyclic rate
of ~1300 rpm.  I'd love to own a real MAC (Military Armaments Corp) M11,
but they are rare from what I understand. 

In the real world where these weapons had a purpose, being extemely compact 
and able to empty a mag before the first case hit the ground meant that 
someone had a bunch of .380s in the chest before they knew what happened.

The ones we buy have no purpose other than toys for the most part.
Cobray sells the semis because of the "mystique" of their full-auto
bretheren.  How many people actually use theirs for protection?

#	A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would 
#be quite a neat item, imo.   I wonder if there will ever be such a
#thing developed.

A friend and I were thinking about building a .22LR gatling gun...  Just
got to get the TMs for the feed mechanism for a chain gun, dump alot of 
.22LR into the hopper and power up the electric drill... :-)

Greg Hayes
--
Gregory W. Hayes

GWH@UH.EDU	greg@simpsons.cc.uh.edu
DISCLAIMER: I don't get paid enough to have an opinion...
University of Houston
Xref: sparky rec.guns:19310 talk.politics.guns:26362
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:20:17 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <2632.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us>, dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes:
#  Unfortunately, since the NRA sold the full-auto owners down the river
#  in 1986, not all that many of the pistols were made.  They're very
#  nice toys.  Doug paid $550 for his in late '85, plus Uncle's $400.

The NRA did NOT sell full-auto owners down the river.  That amendment
was NOT their idea, but they couldn't stop it.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
From: rutgers!data.rain.com!john@cs.UMD.EDU (John Mantey)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1 Garand help needed...
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:18:49 GMT

smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:

###(3)  Does anyone have any good loads or bullet weights/velocities for
###original .30-06 ammo?  There are no specific recommendations in my
###reloading manuals for the Garand.  I have saved posts over the years of
###what weights to use, but still am clueless as to what velocities I
###should aim for.

#The usual M1 match load for the .30-06 is around 47 gr. of IMR 4895 pushing
#a Sierra 168 gr MK bullet or you can use around 48 gr. to push a 150 gr. bullet.
#To be safe, start 5% low on the loads and work up.

I have been told that most of the Garand high power shooters use
either IMR 4895 or IMR 4064.  As has been discussed before on this
group you don't want to use a powder that produces too much pressure
since it tends to bend your op-rod.  I currently use 48gr IMR 4895
behind a Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullet.  This seems to give me decent
enough performance considering my rifles quality (fair) and my
shooting skill.  If my memory serves me correctly this is one grain
short of a maximum load according to the SPEER #11 manual.

When I first started reloading, I started with the M1 and the 30/06
round.  I was using 180gr bullets and various quantities of IMR 4198.
Needless to say this powder burned too fast.  My M1 effectively became
a bolt action gun.  This powder didn't ever produce enough pressure to
cycle the action.  The best it ever managed was about 2/3 extraction
and then the empty cartridge was forced back into the chamber.
At any rate, IMR 4895 quickly supplanted 4198 as the powder of
choice.  8-)

---
John Mantey    john@data.rain.com                   Microtek International, DSD
               ...uunet!intelhf!percy!data!john     3300 NW 211th Terrace
Those who know what's best for us,                  Hillsboro, Or 97124
Must rise and save us from ourselves. -Rush-        503-645-7333 x321
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:55 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:

#I have seen an explanation for this added weight, which, IMHO, makes a
#lot of sense. .40S&W ammo are extremely fast to burn. This is why the
#slide and the barrel start to recoil even before the firing pin has
#gone back to its original position. This explains the vertical marks
#on the primer of the delayed blowbacks .40. This also explains their

	I've seen these marks frequently on .40 cases that have
been fired through glocks, in these same cases I also see dented
mouths.
Any clues?
JD
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger's sins?
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:31 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <9301040621.aa17826@s.s.ms.uky.edu> sestes@ncc.uky.edu (Scott Estes) writes:
#Folks,
#
#Would someone kindly tell me why I keep seeing things like "I love Rugers
#but I won't buy one for poltical reasons?"  Dispassionately, please...if
#I wanted polemic, I'd read the New York Times or the American Rifleman...
#
#thanks,

Bill Ruger wrote a publicized letter to congress in which he stated that
this country needs a total, unequivocable ban on magazines of more than X
rounds in pistols and X' rounds in rifles, where X and X' were the capacity
of standard magazines in his firms guns at the time.

#[MODERATOR: Off line, please...]

[MODERATOR:  Okay, so this is a nice and precise summary of the situation.
Just so you newbies in the group see what's up.  Followup off line at least...
(Thanks)]
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:29 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <9301071202.aa08061@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#Dave Williams writes:
## The "brass" jacket on bullets is an alloy called gilding metal.  It is
##formulated specifically to prevent leaving smears in the rifling.  I'm
##not sure how it compares to more ordinary brasses, if you can use the
#
#Gilding metal is 90 % copper and 10 % zinc. It still fouls the bore, but
#perhaps less so than more typical brass compositions.

A very good article on fouling of bores with the copper from bullets
may be found in _Hatcher's Notebook_.  In that article Hatcher
outlines the advances in removing fouling at both the point of firing
(adding tin to the powder sounded interesting) to jacket composition
changes.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:35:40 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <2381.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes:
#-> Basically, the "favorite" configuration is a lathe-turned
#-> brass projectile with a pointed conical tip, and a chamfered base
#-> .357 Mag         75g 2100 fps

# The density of the material is a problem, as it's difficult to imagine
#a 75 grain projectile being worth much against Kevlar.
  
It isn't clear to me why density (along) would be a factor: As I understand
it, the important factors are energy/impact area and/or a point small
enough to slip between fibers in the Kevlar. A lathe-turned point would
certainly do the latter, and a 75grain, 2100fps bullet has more energy that
conventional .357 rounds (at the muzzle at least, a 75grain bullet would loose
velocity and energy faster than a 125grain...

#...You'd also have lead or
#jacketed lead against the rifling.

I'm not sure: You certainly need a metal softer than steel, but brass
_might_ be soft enough. If I remember the story correctly, this sort
of machined brass bullet was tested by the Germans during the Second 
World War. It was very effective (penetrating the scrap armored car they
used as a backstop) but far to expensive/difficult to produce for any
realistic use.

# Since I have a lathe and a press, perhaps I should experiment.

I hope you have the appropriate legal paperwork as well as a lathe: Armor
piercing ammunition is very heavily regulated...

                                                   Frank Crary
                                                   CU Boulder
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 5 Jan 93 03:28:34 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

fountain@bach.udel.edu (Eric Randolp Benson) writes:

##	They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
##of more silly.  

#Not totally.  They describe the Mini-uzi pistol as having the best
#qualities of an electric drill and a pistol.  At least with .380, you
#don't have quite the recoil problem.

	The mini uzi is also a 9mm blowback, I wasn't aware of any
.380s by them.   I guess the .380 Cobray makes some sense, but it
seems if you are going for a smaller caliber you ought to go all
the way and make it .22 LR.  The problem with .22 LR double stack
mags seem to be impossible, however, Grendel makes a 30 double stack
.22 Mag pistol, and I don't see why that would be any easier than .22
LR.

	A reliable, high mag capacity, .22 LR submachine gun would 
be quite a neat item, imo.   I wonder if there will ever be such a
thing developed.

#Eric Benson

Jim Del Vecchio
From: weba@robocop.cs.hut.fi (Veijo Paavali L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III Question
Date: 7 Jan 93 13:47:40 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab

In <9301061909.aa00679@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

#That being the case, have any of you seen, or seen advertised, any Finnish
#Suomi M.31 SMGs? Is "Machine Gun News" a good source for less-well-known
#firearms like the Suomi? It seems that SGN is a bit sparse.

They are quite sparse even here in Finland. The main reason for that is
that the Suomi SMG is still used by the Finnish army. Well not actually
used but they still have them for kind of backup guns. The army here is
quite cruel towards collectors and melts almost all the guns they don't
use any more.

#[MODERATOR:  I have never seen one up close, but they are supposedly one
#of the more rugged SMGs ever built.  Perhaps some of our friends and readers
#in Finland could comment?  As for availability here, it doesn't surprize me
#that SGN is sparse.

Yeah, the Suomi SMG is very rugged and reliable, but the drum magazine
is a really painful to fill. Well, when I think of it the magazine is the
most unreliable part of the gun...

---
Veijo Lansikunnas               If you are going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
weba@niksula.cs.hut.fi                                       - Il Brutto
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Information on a German WW II shotgun
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:23 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1ik64lINNp3e@rave.larc.nasa.gov> fox@shab08.larc.nasa.gov (Mike Fox) writes:
# ...
#      (different design)   VERNEY-CARRON
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  According to the Blue Book 13th ed. this company's importing is
handled by Ventura Imports.  No other information is given about
these companies (more info usually is given in this book.)

  Only two models of shotguns are listed - an O/U, and an
unspecified Skeet Gun.  Neither seems to fit your description.
# ...

--henry schaffer