From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: ABORTION: WHEN Does Human Life BEGIN?
Date: 6 Nov 92 16:20:55 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <Bx9J8z.5F1@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
|In article <72646@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>
|>Jer 1:5   "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you
|>      were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to
|>      the nations."
|>
|>The passage talks about God's foreknowledge - and how he had 
|>selected Jerimiah BEFORE HE WAS BORN and BEFORE HE FORMED HIM.
|>The point is that if God looks upon a person before he was
|>born and before he was born as a person to do great works for
|>Him, then how can one say the unborn person has NO worth.  God
|>had already planned for Jerimiah to do many things.
|
|So Jeremiah was known by God before he was formed, i.e., before 
|conception.  So:

My position is that God knew before hand - not that Jeremiah
existed before hand.  This also has to do with free will.  I
believe God knows what is going to happen, but man has the
will to do what he wants to do - God knows what man chooses.
God doesn't direct our actions, but knows them.

|	**EITHER**
|
|Jeremiah's conception and his birth were pre-ordained 
|and there was no choice for either the sex partners that concieved 
|him and for the mother that gave him birth, 

God's calling was pre-ordained - Jeremiah's parents will and
actions brought him into being.

|	**OR**
|
|all sexual partners do have a choice to have sex or not and all 
|mothers do have a choice whether to give birth or not and the soul 
|of Jeremiah was "installed" in the first appropriate (and wanted) 
|conception to occur.

        **OR**

all sexual partners who chose to have sex (or as some put it
all who have the right and opportunity to have sex) have the
RESPONSIBILITY to give birth.  The forming and giving of
the soul is not within man's intellectual ability/will.
One can hamper the development of the unborn, but the growth
is part of our design and not of our own making.  Don't
be so presumptious that you think man is doing this - it is
part of our God given design.

|Which of these explanations are true?  If the first, this suggests that  
|ALL is pre-determined and therefore the current abortions are part of 
|God's plan.  If the second, then this suggests that abortions will not 
|effect God's plan, for the souls he really wishes to set apart and make 
|sure they walk the Earth will still be born regardless.

God knows what people are going to do, but that doesn't mean
what people do is right nor approved of by God.  God desires
people of a humble heart - not one's who think they are the 
peak of this world's powers and ability.

|Another possiblity is that the passage means God knew the future 
|before it was going to happen, in which case, God is not saying 
|anything about Jeremiah's worth before birth, but merely stating 
|that he knew before conception that Jeremiah would be worthy after 
|birth, when he became a prophet of the nations.

The verse said that God chose him to be a prophet - God gives the
ability.  

A quote from a well-know coach is:

                    Talent is from God
                        be humble,
                    Fame if from man
                        be thankful,
                    Conceit is from self
                        be careful.

|BOTTOMLINE:
|I don't see how the special case of Jeremiah (set apart) advances the 
|cause of either side of the abortion debate anymore than a discussion of 
|Mary's special case of conception would further the cause of either 
|side of the birth-control debate.

God placed significance upon Jeremiah in the womb by pointing out
that that was part of his life, as is the birth as is all if one's
life - God know about all of this before hand, but the part that
is singled out is the forming of Jeremiah in the womb and is
birth - God called him before that, but those are if nothing else
given equal standing in the life of Jeremiah.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.censorship,alt.sex