From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 4 Oct 1992 11:11:50 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

BT: Bruce Tiffany
RL: Rob Levene

RL>>Well?  Is it intellectually honest to call such a person
[who accepts Roe v. Wade]
>>"pro-life" or not?  Please answer.

> Is it honest to call a Messianic Jew a Rabbinic Jew?

No, and that's what you imply when you try group yourselves
under a Jewish umbrella and adopt Rabbinically-mandated symbols
and rituals.

> Next question:  Who cares?  Nobody's claiming that MJ's adhere to Rabbinism,
> which essentially is the rejection of Yeshua in favor of a sort of
> mystical humanistic system of works righteousness which runs contrary to
> the Spirit of Torah.

You have a problem with works righteousness?  Well, says
Jesus:

[...]
#     and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize
#     them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
#     kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who
#     is in heaven.... -Matthew 7:18-23


[...]

>1) Rejection of Roe v. Wade *does* characterize the pro-life movement.

If Roe v. Wade were overturned on technical grounds and replaced with
another piece of legislation permitting unrestricted abortion, then
there would be no pro-life movement, right?

> 2) Rejection of Yeshua is the effect of Rabbinic principles which were
> designed to produce that effect.

Proof, please, or is this a Faith Tenet of "Messianic Judaism[sic]?"
If the latter, just say so and we'll leave it at that.


> But you are being dishonest when you say it is an effect of *Jewish*
> principles.

If you think I'm incorrect, say so and I'll leave it at that,
but since you accuse me of dishonesty, please provide evidence.


[...]

> Yeshua is alive.  I and many others know Him personally.  And He will
> return, according to the Bible.  Schneerson won't be alive much
> longer.  Pretty soon you guys are going to have to quit hollering
> about how Yeshua isn't the Messiah of Israel and produce your own.

I'm not hollering, I'm stating it calmly, as I've been doing all
along (granted, many people find that more unnerving than hollering).
It's the others like Ms. Manninen  who SHOUT in all-caps text.

Besides, as a Levite, *I* can't produce the Messiah, whose father
must be a man of the tribe of Judah.  

Finally, why "Pretty soon?"  Or else what?


>>Use of the term Judaism to denote what I believe is more accurate,
>>since placing Christianity within "Judaism" makes the
>>term "Judaism" meaningless.
>
>Only if Judaism is characterized by rejection of Yeshua would it take away
>the meaning of Judaism.  This is true for Rabbinic Judaism, not
>Biblical Judaism.

Please step back and clarify your use of "Characterized."  I
understand "Y is characterized by X" to mean "X is the *primary*
characteristic of Y" not "X is *a* characteristic of Y."

It sounds like you're suggesting the latter rather than the former.

[...]
>>I'm beginning to think that "Messianic Judaism[sic]" is characterized
>>by a belief that Judaism is characterized by rejection of Jesus, since
>>you continually assert it without proof.
>
>Others have offered ample proof in this forum.

Then put together a summary post on the topic.  Call it
"Proof that Judaism today is built around rejecting Jesus" and
put the highlights there.


>> How would you react to the following statement: "The only good
>> Jew is a Christian Jew."  That's the impression I get from here.
>
> I'd say you're starting to sound like Tom Albrecht, and I'd disagree.

OK, let's rephrase.  The term "good" is too vague:
    "The only authentic Jew is a Christian Jew."  Well?

[...]
>  ... This is
> not a question of Christianity vs. Judaism and drawing a line of
> distinction, but strictly a Jewish question of whether Yeshua is the
> Messiah.

If the later is a "strictly a Jewish question" then why is it that all
the "ayes" are Christian and all the "nays" are Jewish?  It's only
"strictly Jewish" if you call Christianity a form of Judaism, in which
case we would be discussing the former question of the line of distinction.


>   The temporarily dominant Rabbinic sect denies that He is
> [while claiming to speak for all of Judaism, as the feminists claim
> to nspeak for all women; admittedly feminists are the minority, and RJ's
> are still the majority among Jews], whereas Messianic Jews know
> better.

You're "admittedly" clause is the whole reason why you can't use
the umbrella term "Jews" to describe Christianity.

[...]
>> To prove your assertion, you would have to demonstrate that
>> rejection of Jesus is unique.  The reality is that Judaism
>> rejects all the other religions, too.
>
> Again your falacious assumption that acceptance of Yeshua automatically
> makes one a practitioner of a "different religion" -- the auto-rejection
> Harvey was talking about.  But you are wrong, and no such "proof" is
> required.  We're talking about RJ's rejecting the *Jewish* Messiah,
> Yeshua.  Yeshua is not Southern Baptist.

Does acceptance of Jesus automatically make one a Christian?  If yes,
then the follow-up is "Is Christianity a different religion from
Judaism."  But you said above that this isn't the issue.  Your
logic is puzzling.


RL> I meant "Judaism is *not* *characterized* by rejection of Jesus."
>> 
>>You misread it is "Judaism is not characterized by *rejection* of Jesus."

[Referring to disagreement with the above concepts.]

> Either way is true.


So caucus with your cohorts and put together a compilation 
"Rejection of Jesus - how Rabbinic Judaism derives from this"
and subject it to readers' scrutiny.


Rob


Newsgroups: alt.messianic