From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Seeking a Catholic Perspective
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 04:45:15 GMT

I'd like to state my goal, which will appear in another post... soon...

My goal is to demonstrate my point that confession is only meaningful to
the person who believes in it.  This same point can then be carried to
other traditions.  We shouldn't be dividing over something that isn't
globally necessary for salvation.  I am *not* trying to minimize the
meaning of the sacrements to the Catholic.  I accept that the Catholic
believes them to be necessary, and I support him wholeheartedly.  But
I reiterate:  I am a full-fledged christian, just like you, serving the
same God, saved by the same grace, and redeemed by the same blood!


Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM> writes:

>Tim, if someone believes that confession is necessary for salvation,
>and still rejects that Sacrament, they *cannot* be saved.
>However, if someone doesn't believe that confession is necessary, they
>are not really capable of rejecting the Sacrament; they literally do
>not know that it exists.

Like I said before:  Then the sacrement is not necessary for salvation.  All
have to do to avoid the sacrement is to not believe that it's necessary.
Once I do this, I've dodged the issue.  I don't have to subject myself to the
sacrement.

But if a Catholic says that it isn't necessary for salvation,
he's called a heretic.  Or does a Catholic not fall into the "someone"
category?  You can say that "he should know better," but that doesn't
necessarily mean that he does "know better."


>God doesn't punish people for things that are not their fault.  If you
>don't know something, or don't believe something, and had no real
>opportunity to do anything about it, what kind of God would deny you
>heaven for that?

>First of all, all we said is that God doesn't
>condemn you for what you do or do not know, but what you do.  (That is
>not salvation by works; it's condemnation by works -- there's a big
>difference.)

1)  Please reconcile the above two paragraphs.  You say if I don't know
His will, God doesn't deny me heaven.  However, what I know is immaterial.
What I do is what's important to save me from condemnation.

2)  What is salvation if it's not the opposite of condemnation?  (Rom 8:1ff)
If I'm not saved, I'm condemned!


>What you seem to be saying is that a religious body cannot require
>anything different from its members than it requires from anybody
>else.

No.  I'm not an exit councellor, and I don't deal daily with members of
mind-control cults.  And I don't want to criticize the Catholic church or
any church if my criticisms are not in line with the facts of the matter.
Sensationalism is the teaching that my organization is the only way to
be fulfilled, and if I leave really bad things are going to happen to me.
This usually has the effect of locking the member in the organization from
fear.  Unfortunately, this teaching is all too present in some churches
that are labelled "Protestant."


To be continued...
-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
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