HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Caucasians don't understand
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:39:06 GMT

In article <POPAT.92Aug19121358@image.mit.edu> popat@image.mit.edu (Kris Popat) writes:
>
>In <1162@xlnt.COM> David Johnson writes:
>>fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>>IF you are discriminated against in this country, you have recourse to legal
>>>action to try to correct what you feel to be an injustice. This is NOT true
>>>most other places, as you no doubt know from your travels. Perfect? No. But
>>>it IS better than nothing.
>>
>>I think this is what separates the US from other countries in terms of
>>racial discrimination.  Excellent point Mike.
>
>Yes, "it's better than nothing," but that doesn't make the current
>race-relations situation acceptable for America.  We hold our country
>to a much higher standard.
>
>It is completely reasonable to envision, and ultimately to expect and
>demand, an America free of hate.  Comparing America favorably to other
>countries in terms of race relations only serves to distract us from
>all that we have yet to accomplish.

Does it? Somehow, when I'm in the middle of a task, I don't lose sight of
how much more I have to do. Perhaps you are different.

Mike
-- 
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man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."
From: frank@owlnet.rice.edu (Frank T. Kang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Why do minority groups whine? (or stupid redneck tricks)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:36:30 GMT
Organization: Rice University


Yesterday, as I walked out of the library in rural Dallas, Texas, I was
confronted by a native.  This individual, apparently going for a walk,
was unshirted, beerbellied, sweaty and nicely tanned to a healthy pink.
(add favorite rural accent where appropriate)
   "Boy, dey hayve aney Kareate books in dere?", he demanded.
   "I don't know.  I suppose so", I replied.  At this point, I wasn't
quite sure whether I should be offended or rolling on the ground
laughing.
   "Doncha know?  Ya look like a blayck beylt ta me!" he countered.
   At this point I flicked my nose Bruce Lee style and walked off.  Looking
back several seconds later, he was still standing there blinking in 
confusion.  I considered letting out a Bruce Lee style battle whine 
"eeeeiiiiiiyyyyyyaaaaoooooooowwwwwwwwww!", but decided to not further
confuse the poor fellow.
   Then it hit me like so many kung fu chops to the head.  This was the
origin of our masterful whining - Bruce Lee!  So be not shamed
of our whining - for it is what make us great indeed.  When we
are united in our cause, our collective whine will tear through
our opponents' eardrums and we will emerge...victorious, if not
hoarse.

Frank
From: kemnitz@netcom.com (Greg Kemnitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:20:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

A problem I've always had with the notions of race-based simplification is
that the notion that all, or even most, Whites are somehow members of a ruling
elite is manifestly untrue.  There is certainly a ruling elite, and it is
almost uniformly white, but the majority of Whites don't belong to it.  And
to many poor or struggling "middle class" Whites of today, the idea that
AA's are somehow being harmed doesn't seem to make sense.  A question is asked:
if I am somehow a member of the white ruling elite, and they are being harmed
by racism, how come so many of them are richer than I am?  The question of
glass ceilings sometimes comes off as sounding like people complaining that
racism forces them to buy a 5 series BMW and a house in Cupertino when they
otherwise would have a 7 series B'mer and a house in Saratoga - not a way to
develop interest and concern among people struggling to make ends meet.

Concern over struggling immigrants falls on deaf ears as well - throughout
American history, immigrants have always struggled, and it seems among Asian
immigrants an unusual number of them seem to be quite wealthy: able to buy 
expensive houses and businesses with cold hard cash seemingly as soon as they
arrive from their homeland.  Also, many of those exploiting poor Asian 
immigrants are AA's who own restaurants, small factories, etc.

*I* know that Asian immigrants who pay cash for property are often spending
their family's life savings, and that the glass ceiling exists and is a
serious problem, and that AA issues are quite poorly represented politically
in America.  But overcoming the evidence of one's own eyes is quite difficult,
and addressing the seeming contradiction between what academics say about
the ongoing effects of anti-AA racism and what poor or working class Whites
see around them is a challenge which seems to have been largely ignored by
AA activists, except to denounce such notions as "perpetuations of the model
minority myth".  But however politically inconvenient such observations are,
they do exist and ignoring them weakens the political impact of AA causes
before poorer people, not only poor whites but other generally poorer minority
groups as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Kemnitz                        | "I ran out of the room - I
MultiMedia Information Systems Inc. | didn't want to be killed by a pile
kemnitz@netcom.com                  | of VMS manuals" :-)
                                    |
                                    | --A friend at DEC Palo Alto in the Quake
From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Caucasians don't understand
Date: 15 Aug 92 07:36:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Aug15.073614.22377
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.

In article <1992Aug15.035250.14348@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>[Andy's stuff deleted]
>
>Usually, Mr. Shaw spouts a lot of Chinese-cu cultural sh*t.
>
>But this particular paragraph is not.

Hell, if *Andy and Dwight* can agree on something, you know there's at least
some truth to this.  And I know Andy has first-hand experience on this.  And
I have an inkling Dwight does, too.

>The Japanese view European-Americans and Europeans far better than they
>view non-Japanese Orientals.

My father can vouch for this.

>Mr. Fester (fester@island.com) is lying and manipulating the true 
>picture of Japan to portray himself as the European-American analog
>of an Asian-American.  He wants to show that he has "suffered" in
>Japan.  To that, I say, "Try again, Sam."

Man, Dwight, that's pretty strong language coming from you.  :-)

>Mr. Shaw is quite right to say that the Japanese are "thrilled" to
>see white foreigners.  To the Japanese, a Frenchman can speak
>English far better than any Thai-ge born in the USA.  Why?  The
>Frenchman is white; he "must" English.  Even in the commercials
>on Japanese TV, when there are foreigners used to advertise 
>products, they are usually white.

It's funny.  For some reason, movie stars in the US who have achieved a
high level of fame and artistic acclaim (I'm talking movie stars, not TV
stars) are terrified of "selling out" their "artistic values" by pitching
products for companies in America.  And yet quite a few have no such qualms
about compromising those "artistic values" to make big bucks in Japanese
commericals.  None at all.  Hmm(tm)...  :-)

>What I've said is neither a joke nor an exaggeration.  I really
>do understand how Korean-Japanese feel.  They are Koreans
>_with_ Japanese citizenship.  (But most Koreans in Japan don't
>want Japanese citizenship but bitch anyways.)  In the eyes of the
>Japanese, they can never be as "good" as the "real" Japanese-ge or
>Europeans-ge.

Again, if the experiences of my father are any indicator, this last
sentence hits some truth.

>Mr. Shaw should have seen that buffoon at the Hard Rock Cafe, basically
>octopus-ing this Japanese lady.  It was quite a sight.

I guess you do have first-hand experience in Japan.

Jim
From: jj@alice.att.com (jj, clueless old white boy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Why do minority groups whine?
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:53:48 GMT
Reply-To: jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy)
Distribution: na
Organization: NJ State Home for Bewildered Terminals

In article <1992Aug13.021954.4194@bnr.ca> thao@bnr.ca (Anthony Murtagh) writes:
somebody else, I forgot who
>>>p.p.s. What do you have against Laly anyway?  He always comes off reasonable

Why does what sex Laly is matter?

(As to the name, ok.  Just wondered.)

As to "against Laly", I have nothing. As to the words he
used, well, they looked a bit contemptuous of "whiners".

Now, of course, our usual "opponent", and I don't mean
Laly, has smeared the white race as a bunch of whiners.

I guess I just don't like any generalities, about any race.
-- 
 Bush    *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
   vs       *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
 Clinton  --    *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
 Just Say !NO!       *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.
From: russil@IDACOM.HP.COM (Russil Wvong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Accountability, or rather, JJ's lack of it.
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:22:47 GMT
Reply-To: russil@idacom.hp.com

Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@caen.engin.umich.edu> writes:
>But, IMHO, I think this jj *is* signing his name.  Does anybody remember those
>days of the first home computers (mine was that *powerful* TI 99/4a with a
>whopping 16K of memory).  BBS's (a "lesser" form of Usenet) started to pop up
>everywhere.  Many people using those BBS's went by what were called "handles"
>(not those stupid "pointers to pointers").

Obviously a former Mac programmer. :-)

>They always used them as if they were their name.  In fact, at those user
>group meetings (yes, I _used_ to go to them), many people still went by
>their handles when they were face to face.  It was because they wanted to
>be known by their handles.  In effect, for all pratical purposes, to others,
>their handles WERE their names.

I think you're missing Andy's point, though.  Anybody reading Andy's articles
knows who wrote them.  If they wanted to, they could look up his phone number
and home address.  Or they might remember his USENET articles while reading
one of his papers, or while interviewing him for a job.  The same isn't true
of jj@alice, because jj isn't his *real* name.

(That said, I don't think it's reasonable to associate jj@alice with the KKK.
:-)  If I really wanted to, I could find out who he was, e.g. by looking up
alice in the UUCP maps and calling the system administrator or neighboring
sites.  I don't think jj's done anything worthy of comparison with
cross-burning.  He just doesn't seem to understand where people like Andy
and James Pak are coming from.)

>Michael F. Kamprath

P. S.  I seem to recall a jj, at cup.portal.com, who asked everyone to
send him $1 so he could go to college.  That wasn't you, was it, jj?  :-)

--
Russil Wvong
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Our newsfeed is unreliable -- if you want me to see it, send e-mail
People will always choose the familiar over the comfortable -- Virginia Satir
From: dgama@zooid.guild.org (Kevin Page)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: hello
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:10:44 GMT

This is just a test :-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Asian American speakers at the Repub Convention
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com (I'm a C-SPAN junkie :-) )
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 07:19:03 GMT

On C-SPAN's coverage of the Republican convention last night (Tues), I saw
two Asian American Republicans give short speeches.

The first AA speaker was Matt Fong from the California State Board of
Equalization.  He is also a former Air Force Lieutenant and pilot.

The second AA speaker was Nao Takasugi, the mayor of Oxnard, CA.

Both gave the usual "yay for us, boo for them" kind of speeches.  Neither
was a great speaker IMO, but both were ok.  I guess it's not surprising that
both are from California, given the strong AA presence there.

I believe their presence was at least in part due to the Republican's willing-
ness to show the "colors of the rainbow" at the convention.  There were also
two Hispanic speakers, an African American speaker, and of course some women.
(I didn't watch the whole thing, so there may have been more.)  However, as
has been mentioned here before, Asian Americans are as likely to be Republican
as Democrat.

Regardless of ideology, It was nice to see their faces and voices on the tube.

Jim

p.s. Ob. media bias comment:  According to ABC last night, on the eve of the
     convention, Governor Clinton was leading Pres. Bush 57% to 37%.  If I
     catch the figures after Thursday night, I'll post them.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.asian.american:8094 soc.motss:35387
From: Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.motss
Subject: AM/CM - Gay Colonialism?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 10:51:57 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

As if it weren't bad enough that Asian males are outraged that
their women are defecting to white males, and white females are
outraged that Asian bimbos/airheads are stealing their men, and
Asian men are complaining like a bunch of pathetic wimps that they
aren't studly enough, do we dare extend the AF/CM (Asian female,
Caucasian male) thread to AM/CM (Asian - Caucasian male). 

I was just looking throught the San Jose Metro, and there are now a
bunch of Asian male listings seeking men -- not the 20% that Asians
are of the population, but quite possibly the highest concentration of
gay Asians in the country (think about it - where are all the
Asians who are Americanized enough to be gay? They're not in SF, they
probably went to engineering school like all good Asian-Am boys, and
work in Silicon Valley!) What is surprising is that it looked like
most of them specifically were looking for white males. If that wasn't
bad enough, at least as many white males were looking for Asian males
as partners.

Should this brand of inter-racial partnership be banned because it is
a form of sexual colonialism, or encourged since there should be no
bars on any brand of fetishishism between consenting adults?

Have fun.
From: mday@jukebox.lcs.mit.edu (Mark Day)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: What do E. Hall, M. Kamprath, J. Waldrop, and M. Fester have in common?
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:54:09 GMT
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science


   jlw@gestalt.austin.tx.us (James Waldrop) writes:

   If Usenet was a bboard, then maybe you'd be correct to be cynical.  As
   it is we happen to be 'talking' with a lot of people.  Maybe you are
   missing the point.  These aren't really aliases, they're nicknames.
   Would you be against someone introducing themselves to you by their
   nickname?

I've yet to meet someone who goes by a nickname who's been unwilling
to provide a "real" name if I asked for it, i.e. for addressing
wedding invitations, being able to find them in a phone book, etc.
Maybe if I went to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings I'd know lots of
people by first name only and there'd be an understanding that I
shouldn't want to find out their "real" name, but that's the closest
analogy I can think of to people using a netname and being unwilling
to tell what their "real" name is.

   >I'll leave the rest of you geniuses figure out the other thing those boys
   >have in common.

   Are you seriously implying that we are "banding together" because
   we're white?

This confuses me too.  Andy, what *do* you think these people have in
common, other than disagreeing with you?

--Mark Day

mday@lcs.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: Book News
Reply-To: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:06:37 GMT

In article 2418@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU, ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu) writes:
>Hey Folks,
>	I just heard that Gus Lee's _China Boy_ has just come
>out in paperback.  Previously, I had given this book a big
>thumbs-up for being fun, Hemingwayesqueishly-male, and very
>inclusively multi-cultural.
>	Also, someone on the net (I'm sorry I forgot.) had
>recommended Dave Mura's _Turning Japanese_.  I'll second the
>rec, although this is a pretty high-brow book (lots of literary
>and sociological references) and is also pretty subtle on Asian-American
>issues.  A good read nonetheless.
>	Finally, any comments on Louie's _Pangs of Love_?  Is
>it worth reading?
>					--Alan Hu


I just got Louie's book.  It is a collection of short stories, I believe they 
were written before the novel.  I have only read a couple of stories.  Pretty good
as far as I can tell, he has a nice way of pulling you in and then surprising 
you.

****************************************************************************
*Peter Wung				Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory		Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering		    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology				    	   *        *Atlanta, Georgia							   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...						   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy.  		   *
*									   *
****************************************************************************
From: jj@alice.att.com (jj, clueless old white curmudgeon boy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Accountability, or rather, JJ's lack of it.
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:58:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23467
Reply-To: jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white curmudgeon boy)
Organization: NJ State Home for Bewildered Terminals

In article <1992Aug16.120436.14723@idacom.hp.com> russil@idacom.hp.com (Russil Wvong) writes:
>one of his papers, or while interviewing him for a job.  The same isn't true
>of jj@alice, because jj isn't his *real* name.
Well, it does say jj@alice.att.com on my business card, you kno.

>I don't think jj's done anything worthy of comparison with
>cross-burning.  He just doesn't seem to understand where people like Andy
>and James Pak are coming from.)
And on that I think you are very wrong.   The anger, and the kind of
anger, is pretty much unmistakable, furthermore, it seems I grew up
rather near where Shaw did, and had pretty much the same experience
HE had, for different reasons.  It also seems that he doesn't
want to admit that as a possibility.

What I find so ironic about Shaw is that he seems to have experienced
almost EXACTLY what I did as a kid, and had about the same reaction.
What I find rather infuriating is that he is determined to deny
that it happened to me, and that he also feels like I'm denying
that that it happened to him when I say it also happened to me.

Um, I'd call it confirmation, myself.

>P. S.  I seem to recall a jj, at cup.portal.com, who asked everyone to
>send him $1 so he could go to college.  That wasn't you, was it, jj?  :-)
Well, actually, there are 2 notable jj's on the net, not including
the impostor from Portal. (I say imposter because he was operating
under false pretenses there, or so portal claimed.)  I will say that
I don't like talking to postal inspectors, but I was glad to give them
portal's phone number.  Portal, by the way, was quite respectable in 
behavior about all this, once they found out they had a clinker on board.
-- 
 Bush    *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
   vs       *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
 Clinton  --    *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
 Just Say !NO!       *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.motss
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: AM/CM - Gay Colonialism?
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:14:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.151734.15840@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
lam@popeye.comm.mot.com (Dan Lam) writes:
>In article <64177@cup.portal.com> Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
>>
>>gay Asians in the country (think about it - where are all the
>>Asians who are Americanized enough to be gay? They're not in SF, they
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>probably went to engineering school like all good Asian-Am boys, and
>>work in Silicon Valley!) 
>>
>
>You are what you are.  You dont need to be AMERICANIZED engouh to be
>what you are.  Come on Arthur, you make it sounds like homosexuality is an
>American thing.  I am sure gay asians exist.
>
>How would you feel if I say I am not ASIANIZED enough to go to
>engineering school and work in Silicon Valley? 

I suspect that Mr. Mark Choi (janhsu@hardy.u.washington.edu) would agree
with you.  Here's a clip from a post which he made almost 3 months ago.

   In article <1992May25.092501.19596@u.washington.edu>
   janhsu@hardy.u.washington.edu (Mark Choi) writes:
   >In article <1992May25.070900.4513@leland.Stanford.EDU>
   >underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
   >>This is reprehensible.  This is the kind of discrimination that even
   >>Mr. Pak seems to oppose in the USA.  Is it all right for an engineering
   >>company to hire only Chinese-Americans because they are ethnically
   >>Chinese?
   >Yes, Dwighty, it is.

Of course, the similarity between his comment and "ASIANIZED enough..." 
depends on whether you mean "ASIANIZED" in the cultural sense or the
ethnic (-ge, genetic) sense.

In Mr. Choi's case, he agrees that an appropriate requisite for
employment that one must be CHINESE-IZED-ge "enough to go to
engineering school and work in Silicon Valley".  I, of course,
disagree with his view.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu)
Subject: Re: Caucasians don't understand
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 21:51:17 GMT

In article <4850@dove.nist.gov> hira@cme.nist.gov writes:
>JESUS CHRIST!
>
>How many times do I have to whine about you defining Caucasian as White.
>I'm Indian, which is considered caucasoid, but not White.
>Get it straight people!
>
>Ron
>Television: The Drug Of A Nation

Well, Ron, the equation of "Caucasian" to "White" is firmly established
American English usage.  You can try starting a campaign to change that
now, and in, say, 20 years, people in this group will be arguing about it
the way we currently argue about "Asian-American vs Oriental".  :-) * 0.5
This word usage is the product of some brilliant white minds who decided
that all of humanity fell into exactly three strictly distinct categories:
Caucasoid (==white), Mongoloid (==Oriental in the current American usage),
and Negroid (==black).  The miniscule (ha!) chunk of the world between, say,
the Aegean sea to around Burma or thereabouts didn't count, and those people
got to be classified haphazardly over the years.  For example, a US supreme
court decision in the early 20's (1923? 24?) legally reclassified Armenian
immigrants from Mongoloid to Caucasoid, and thus made them eligible for
naturalization as US citizens (and thus eligible to own land in California
and other states with alien land laws).
						--Alan Hu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american