HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Distribution: ne
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 22:04:52 GMT


borden@cfa.harvard.edu (Dave Borden) writes:

>In article <BswL19.97n@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

>> Why is it that
>>the discrimination in South Africa is so important but not in Japan ....

>Maybe because in South Africa you have a minority population that rules over
>the indigenous majority population, while in Japan you have an homogenous
>population that merely likes itself more than it likes other kinds of people -
>we don't have to like it but it's nothing to scream about.


>   - Dave Borden
>     borden@m5.harvard.edu

Tell it to the Ainu, tell it to the Koreans who were brought over as forced
labor (slaves) and are not citizens 5 generations later, tell it to the
Japanese whose ancestors worked with leather centuries ago and who are
identified by family names and through research in family registers and
treated as untouchables ....   No country is perfect and the organized
discrimination in Japan is very similar to that in S. Africa , the major
difference being that of majority against minority instead of the reverse.

My point was that the "fad" is to blame South Africa but to ignore the
same behavior elsewhere. Another example of the same type of organized
discrimination can be found in the treatment of the "travelers" in
Ireland, where they are identified by their papers, housed in poorer
housing than the "Irish", forced to go to special offices if they are
on the dole.... etc.  The "fad" crowd does not worry about that either.

Charlie


-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: In politics, why as why?
Followup-To: ne.politics
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:13:47 GMT

In article <2366@mitech.com> gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:

   Well, the vast majority of democrats in the senate didn't vote
   against a Gulf War so much as they voted *for* a position
   of indecisiveness, and increasing the military risks once
   a movement had to be made.

They voted for continuing sanctions.  The Bush administration, when it
put the sanctions in place, said that they would be effective; then it
changed its mind.  The CIA was also saying that they'd be effective.
While, in retrospect, it looks now as if they really never would have
been effective, that was not clear at the time.

   the u.s. military didn't want to have to either
    (a) fight the war later in the year, in the hot weather.
    (b) wait around for another year for the next good window of cooler weather.

On the other hand, you may rememeber that ten previous Chairmen of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff were opposed to starting the war.  My point is
that things were not as simple as "Democrats versus Military".

   There wasn't a good supply of actual pictures of what the Iraqi invaders
   were doing to the Kuwait people during the occupation. Especially no
   t.v. pictures.

But Bush used his bully pulpit to talk about it, very strongly.
Remember him talking about how immoral the invasion was, how innocent
people were being killed, how Saddam was like Hitler, and so on?
Doesn't seem to bother him much in Yugoslavia.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
	<BswL19.97n@world.std.com> <1992Aug17.141134.18481@m5.harvard.edu>
	<Bt5Eo4.FIx@world.std.com> <BZS.92Aug17184345@ussr.std.com>
Distribution: ne
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:51:18 GMT

In article <BZS.92Aug17184345@ussr.std.com> bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

   It's hard to name a country which does not have a sizeable portion of
   the population which is not systematically discriminated against

But it's easy to name countries that aren't razing the churches of
that portion and making their lives barely worth living.  What's going
on in ex-Yugoslavia now is a lot worse than what's going on in most
places; it's not all the same.

Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Subject: Democrats as U2 ticket agents/scalpers
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:23:55 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

>>>>Oh, but haven't you heard?  "The recovery is well under way!"

>>>Brought to you by the same people who claim there was nothing to
>>>recover from. ``That economy is not dead, it's just sleeping, resting
>>>its eyes I tell you'' (said in best Monty Python-ese.)

heiser@ferrari.nmc.ed.ray.com (Bill Heiser) writes:
>Well it was worst when Dukakis was running for President.  Did you notice
>how all of the bad news "suddenly" leaked out AFTER the election was over?

Remember the Whitey Bulger story which broke in the form of a four-part
series in the _Globe_ starting on 18 September 1988?  (I note that Billy
Bulger faced a rather tough challenge in the 15 September 1988 election.)

This morning, I was treated to the rather pathetic Steven Grossman,
chairman of the MA Democratic party, as he tried to explain that
his party was not flouting any campaign finance or scalping laws by
reselling U2 concert tickets at a pricey $125 for the purposes of
fundraising.  But, he said, if the party was engaging in any impropriety
observed by the public, he didn't think the measley amount of money
to be raised was worth the hassle, and would cancel the 20-Aug event.

How can political "leaders" get off telling us that political parties
ought to be exempt from the law which prohibits people or organizations
from profiteering by hoarding and scalping concert tickets?  Grossman
was whining (this was a live interview on WBZ-AM about 90 minutes ago
now) that if the police officer who sent him the letter of complaint could
produce any "case precedent" regarding the application of this law to
a political party, he'd withdraw.  Now I ask, why would *any* political
party seek to *create* legal case precedent on an issue for which there
is no moral leg to stand on?

*sigh*  What an embarrassment for us liberals.

-rich
P.S.  To report the story fairly, Grossman pointed out that the tickets
	were part of a package deal which includes a party prior to the
	concert.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: War's a funny thing
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 13:21:08 GMT

In article <m6ooPB1w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:

   > Time for the Democrats to demonstrate how we can set an example for the
   > rest of the world, and perhaps even extend a helping hand.  Sometimes that
   > hand will hold food and supplies, and sometimes it'll have to hold an
   > assault rifle.  That's the price of civilization.

   What's THIS?!?  A "semi-Liberal Democrat" promoting _war?_

Rich's position is completely consistent with Democratic and "liberal"
positions throughout most of the twentieth century.  Typically it was
the Republicans who wanted to turn their backs on the rest of the
world and the Democrats who wanted to engage the rest of the world.
It was not a Republican president who got us into NATO.  It was not a
Republican president who said that we should "bear any burden", etc.

The Vietnam war temporarily changed this, as doubt arose as to whether
what we were doing in Vietnam really constituted "defending American
freedom" etc.  With the end of the Cold War, and with more and more
time between the Vietnam war and now, it's not surprising to see the
underlying principles re-emerging.

   I've been waiting for this opening.  When the war in the Gulf was coming to a
   close with an incomplete conclusion, in my mind and the minds of almost
   everyone, all I could think of is how the Liberals would have screamed if we
   went in and "finished the job" instead of sticking with the stated purpose of
   our involvement - the driving out of Saddam's forces.

   Can you imagine?  Suppose we stayed for another week or three and sent home a
   few hundred body bags for the effort - can you hear the howls?

I guess you can hear them in your imagination, and your imagination is
what you base your reasoning on.

   No.  At the time, we did what was right.  We finished what we started out to
   do which was free Kuwait in concert with the United Nations and our allies.

You really think that what we did was right?  Or do you say that it came
to an "incomplete conclusion", as you said earlier?

   Hindsight is always 20-20

Apparently yours is pretty contradictory.

   BTW:  It makes my skin crawl to think that the United Nations sets the policy
   for our country.  We shouldn't need U.N. permission to do what we think is the
   right thing.  None of our actions need to be sanctioned by any other country
   or world body.  Subordinating our sovereignty to any other entity is
   tantamount to tyranny.

That's pretty funny.  You think that the U.N. is some autonomous
dictator?  The U.N. is a forum in which international cooperation is
possible, if the nations want to cooperate.  If you're such a conservative
you should listen to Jeanne Kirkpatrick on the subject.
From: europa@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (r.j.capik)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:43:41 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: AT&T

Just an observation here. Why is it that the "word of God" seems
to be quoted just about exclusively from the Bible?
Why don't we see more Taoist quotes, or what about the Torah and
the Talmudic texts, or how about the Koran, etc?
Is the only moral code that of the Bible, as presented by them
what thump that there Bible?
Are we all so poorly educated (by our government schools) that
the only "moral literaturature" we know is the Bible?

Where is the balance...


_________________________________________________________________________

                         ..                                  ^        
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                wWWWWWf      ^V`                         /       _\   
             wWWWWWWWf         `                       _/   _/\_/  \  
           wWWWWWWWWV                                 /_-~\/        \
         wWWWWWWWWWV                ~!              _/            /~ \__
       wWWWWWWVWVWWV                /!            /              /      \
     wWVWVWVWVWWWWWWV              / !\          /             _/  
   wWWWWWWWVWVWVWVWVWv            /__!_\        /             /    
wWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWv    ,  ,.,,\___/ ,,,   /             /      
VWVVWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwWWwVWwWmYwwwwwWwmvw_Ron_Capik__cbnewsh!europa_wwww
                                                Bell Labs, Holmdel
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 22:41:18 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>Same with sexual screw-ups.  Catch AIDS?  You die, your family mourns.  

You're a sick and stupid guy.

Who cares what you think, and I use the term loosely.

It's the standard fallacy, why should we give a damn about your
ravings about how much you don't care about others? What makes you
special and excepted from your own philosophy?

So someone rips off all your money in taxes and teaches your kids how
not to die and it pisses you off? So what? Tough world Brian, get used
to it, big fish eat little fish, and you're a guppy.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Distribution: ne
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:43:56 GMT

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>Say what you like about the so-called "liberal-left", but at least
>they are consistent in their concerns about such matters and will run
>out to protest any of these injustices with the same moral fervor.

>--
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Inconsistency is not owned by the right by a long shot......

Else why are so many of the persons who wish to ban cigarette smoke also
ones who believe in legalizing pot.....  why are so many of those who
are pro-abortion also anti-death penalty ..... why are those who are
most down on the Serbs keeping quiet about Croatia's occupation of
much of Bosnia (and their ethnic cleansing) .... why were those who
were most in favor of the Armenians and against the Azeris so quiet when
it turned out that the Azeri 1/3 of the population had ceased to exist
(even after the reports of slaughtered women and children) Why is it that
the discrimination in South Africa is so important but not in Japan ....
why is it that arrest without charge and trial without jury and government
hit teams are such a big deal when any South American government does it
but not when the Sandinistas or the British forces in Ireland does it...
why was it important when seals were being clubbed on the head but not
when cows were. Why is leather "better" than fur... why is organic better
in everything excpt fur......


I am sure that I have hit plenty of hot spots, especially from those who
have the strongest sense of self delusion.


Charlie

-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 23:29:40 GMT

I will not respond , item by item to what I feel is a heartless and selfish
post, that demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of the principles
of society and civilization. I will offer to you:

W. E. Gladstone 1878 - "National injustice is the surest road to national
			downfall"

Spencer - "Society exists for the benefit of its members; not the members
           for the benefit of society"


John Donne - "No man is an island , entire of itself; every man is a piece
             of the continent, a piece of the main; ... any man's death
 	     diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
	     never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.



The greatest resource that we have and the greatest waste that we as a
society have are one and the same, the minds and skills of our children.
How can you possibly speak against "shop" and "music" and "sex education"?
How can you possibly speak against the offering of knowlege to OUR children.

What kind of evil holds in one hand the desire to prevent all abortions and
in the other hand no compassion for these innocent children. What kind of
blindness and illogic would rant against education or would restrict its
scope. Would you have the next Einstein never be exposed to the more 
esoteric sciences? Would you have the next Beethoven not be exposed to music?

The most intelligent man that I ever met was a genius of incredible 
potential. I taught this man for 2 weeks in an engineering course. He
had been wasted by just the kind of blind injustice that you propose. He
should have been one of the great minds of the world, but he had faced a
society that restricted his access to knowlege. Still by the light of candles
he had taught himself to be a competent engineer. What greatness was wasted
by forcing this man to educate himself? A task that he did so well that the
rulers of his country even let him travel, even let him supervise others
of their own. How many young women or young men have been cheated by systems
that only allow the genius to become ordinary and force the ordinary into
a lower class.  What a lesson can be learned from one young man teaching
himself in a house with no running water and no electricity using the
light of precious candles ..... in Soweta.


Charlie

P.S. Read YOUR Bible for insight on justice , injustice , compassion , and
     mercy.
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Abortion- Kill/Save
Summary: Some fetuses must die so that others live.
Keywords: abortion fetus 
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Distribution: ne
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 23:47:32 GMT


	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- An Israeli woman being treated with fertility drugs
was found to be carrying 12 live embryos, the daily Ma'ariv newspaper
reported Monday.
	The woman, a mother of twins, is being treated at Sheba Medical
Center near Tel Aviv. The discovery was made during a routine ultrasound
examination.
	``The world record that we know of is eight or nine live embryos,''
said Dr. Shlomo Mashiach of the center.
	Doctors indicated that there was no chance of the dozen embryos all
surviving, and that most would have to be removed.
-- 



So how does the pro-life crowd respond to this situation????

Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: The World
	<1992Aug18.151810.7235@spdcc.com> <1992Aug21.192740.19388@credence.com>
	<CKD.92Aug22013922@loiosh.eff.org>
Distribution: ne
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 08:34:45 GMT


From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
>I guess that means that married couples won't get special treatment
>anymore?  (i.e. tax breaks if one works and one doesn't, though it's a
>tax penalty if you both make about the same amount, figure that one out)

Tax laws are social engineering, someone doesn't want you both
working.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: insert anything here
Distribution: ne
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:18:25 GMT

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>One hypocrisy that always bugs me is when we find out, for example (a
>real example) that PCB pollution in the Great Lakes is causing all
>sorts of fetal deformities and lowering of average IQ's among those
>exposed in the womb, but where are these Operation Rescue types? Why
>aren't they sitting in at the offices of the FDA (who refuses to even
>test for many of these chemicals, let alone cut into the profits of
>the local fish industry) or the docks? Where's the concern?

	It's scary: these same people will also have no gumption
about saying things like "we should get rid of all AIDS funding
becuase, after all, those people DESERVED IT".  Or, one person
who after going on a tirade about abortion, then started in on 
welfare mothers...  He didn't seem to get the picture when I
mentioned that after non having an abortion, the food/shelter/etc.
had to be paid somehow.

	Sociological insecurity...  "I'm nothing unless I can feel
morally superior to someone."

	In the end it comes down to education.  Education to help
you learn to be responsible.  Education to help you learn to
accept the consequences of your actions.  Education to help you
understand that life is not a simple thing.  Some people still
need to learn that control is not education.  Sigh.

BBC
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Foreign policy musings
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:24:40 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

I wrote:
>Bush is still obsessed with tired old Saddam, and not doing anything about
>these other problems.  So much for his 'expertise' at foreign policy.

More significantly, one of the motivations for going into the Persian
Gulf conflict with such a show of international strength was to demonstrate
a commitment by the U.S. and the international community not to ever
let petty dictators seize control arbitrarily over other countries'
territory.  A secondary goal was to make the same statement regarding
genocide (in that case, the Kurdish subpopulation of Iraq).

In order to make that kind of strong 'never again' statement, though,
the international community simply *could not* consider the Persian Gulf
War a one-shot deal.  It had to be ready and waiting to use this coalition
of military force again, enough times to establish credibility.

Bush has discarded this credibility.  What petty dictator today is going
to worry about the USA's military capability, given the red tape and
bureaucracy, and yes ineffectual leadership, which effectively blocks its
deployment?

The next few months of world history are extremely critical in setting
the tone for the next generation.  Do we want to once again go under
the fear of nuclear annihilation and World War III, or do we want to
establish long-term peace through appropriate deterrence?  (Deterrence
is more a matter of international consensus than a head count of troops
and weaponry.  The Democrats know this, seemingly more so than the
Republicans.)

-rich
Newsgroups: ne.politics