From: ujmurphy@mcs.Drexel.edu (Jim Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: GEnie A2Pro RTC Transcript: ORCA/C 2.0
Date: 14 Dec 92 07:36:35 GMT
Distribution: comp.sys.apple2
Organization: Drexel University

----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Apple II Programmers RoundTable
                   ===============================

                   Real Time Conference Transcript
                   -------------------------------

Guest    :   Mike Westerfield
Company  :   The Byte Works, Inc.
Topic    :   ORCA/C 2.0
Date     :   December 13, 1992


Copyright (c) 1992 by the Apple II Programmers RoundTable of GEnie.
                        All rights reserved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Thanks for coming to the conference tonight --
we've clearly got critical mass already, so we'll start right away.  Here's how
it works:

     Our guest tonight is Mike Westerfield of The Byte Works, who's here to
talk about ORCA/C 2.0, the big new upgrade coming in mere days.  Mike will tell
us a little bit about ORCA/C 2.0, and then we'll open the floor to your
questions. To ask a question, use the "/RAIse" command to Raise your hand.
I'll see it, and I'll call on you when it's your turn. If you have a comment,
please type "!" on a line by itself.  We won't leave the room in listen-only
mode unless it gets hard to hear what Mike and the questioners have to say. :)

     We'll give away the free ORCA/C 2.0 at some semi-random time in the middle
of the conference.  Any questions about all this hooplah? If you so, you can
"/send" a private message to me or any other staff member at any time.  Thanks
for coming, and without further ado, here's Mike Westerfield!

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Hi folks! I thought I would start off by answering the
obvious questions:  when and how much! First, when I scheduled this conference
last month, I thought we would be shipping by now.  Well, we all know what
software schedules are like.  I'm putting the finishing touches on it now, and
expect the product to actually ship late next week (i.e., right around
Christmas time.) As for how much, well, that depends.  The retail price has not
changed, so if you don't have ORCA/C yet, the price for buying it won't go up.
If you're upgrading, the price depends on when you purchased.  If you bought
before Sep. 1, the price is $50; otherwise it's $25.  After Feb 28th, then the
update offer expires, all updates will be $60.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> What you get is basically a whole new package.  ORCA/C 2.0
comes with all of the old stuff, with all of the pieces at the 2.0 level --
including Prizm.  You also get Rez, DeRez, and a few other utilites. Let me hit
the high points of the new release, then I'll let you ask questions about the
details so we spend time on the stuff that interests you.

     - Code generation is vastly improved.
     - The compiler supports HyperStudio NBAs and HyperCard XCMDs directly.
     - The search path mechanism for #include is improved
     - Precompiled headers
     - vprintf() and it's cousins are present
     - Prototyped tool header files
     - Prizm has been completely revamped for System 6.0
     - The debugger can display structs, unions, pointers, arrays, and
       virtually any combination of these.

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> What about upgrades (say to 1.3) and the $25/$50
deadline? I bought mine before Sep. 1st, but there might be others out there
who upgraded in the last few months. (Sorry if this is a fine point)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No, that's fine.  We've been advising people for quite some
time that C 2.0 was iminent, and our sales folks have told anyone ordering by
phone, too.  As a result, I don't expect that to be a problem.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Any follow-up, Todd?

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> No, I'll ask again later if I think of something.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> Hi Mike, thanks for coming tonight...My question is about the
precompiled headers...(BTW, I am glad to hear that is in there!!!) How much
compile time speed improvement is there from this?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> It depends a lot on what kind of program you are compiling.
The biggest savings are for toolbox programs, which have lots of headers.
Obviously, the more headers there are compared to code, the bigger the savings.
As one example, though, the compile time for the Minicad.cc program from the
ORCA/C samples disk dropped to 45% of the time required by the 1.3 compiler,
and that should be about typical.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> A typical main source file of mine can have 15-20 tool header
files included so I am happy. Thanks.

<[Guy] THE.VAGRANT> Mike, you mentioned improvements to the debugger.  Is that
part of 2.0 or a seperate upgrade?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> The debugger in Prizm is part of C 2.0. ORCA/Debugger hasn't
been upgraded, yet, but will be early next year. That upgrade will not be free.

<[Guy] THE.VAGRANT> Ahh, OK.  Thanks.

<[Brian] B.WELLS5> Right now I use the Merlin assembler. What advantages does
ORCA/C have?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> ORCA/C is a high-level language, with all of the advantages
and disadvantages that entails.

<[Brian] B.WELLS5> Would I still be able to do "low-level" stuff?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> You might be thinking of ORCA/M, our macro assembler.  To
compare ORCA/M and Merlin well would take a lot of time, so it might be better
as a question in Category 36 of the bulletin board, but I'd be happy to answer
specific questions now.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Brian, ORCA/C is a language for the C compiler.
If you don't know how to program in C, you probably would like a tutorial like
Byte Works "Learn to Program in C" and "Learn to Program the Toolbox in C".

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> C is a high-level language.  There is a built-in
miniassembler, but to a large extent you can answer your own question by
thinking about something like AppleSoft BASIC.  C is more powerful than
AppleSoft, but the idea is the same, since both are high-level languages.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Does that answer your main question, Brian?

<[Brian] B.WELLS5> So I could combine C and ORCA/M code?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Absolutely.  You can also combine either language (or both)
with ORCA/Pascal.

<[Brian] B.WELLS5> Cool! Thanks...

<[Bryan Zak] SOFTDISK.INC> Mike, you and I talk a lot, so I'll keep my question
brief:  Any _rough_ idea on when ORCA/Pascal 2.0 will be out?  :)  I'm a Pascal
freak!

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Very roughly, around the end of January to Mid-February.

<[Bryan Zak] SOFTDISK.INC> Yay!  That's all, now back to ORCA/C 2.0... .<grin>

<A2.LUNATIC> Does the new Prizm support file names passed to it on the command
line, or file names passed through Message Center?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No.

<A2.LUNATIC> That's really a pity, that's one of the things I was hoping for.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> I'll interject a comment here -- how come?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I ran out of time.  Message center support was, frankly, at
about the top of what was left of the wish list for Prizm 2.0, and will
probably be added someday... but it won't be in Prizm 2.0.

<A2.LUNATIC> Ok.  Guess I still have a little incentive to make my own simple
TextEdit-based multi-file editor (good project, anyway :).

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Luny:  ask me about that in Category 36. There are ways...:)

<A2.LUNATIC> Ok.  (:

<[Jack] J.BURKE26> Mike, just got the flyer yesterday... looks GREAT...Will the
old ORCA products, like Pascal 1.4 run with the new Prizm?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Yes.

<[Jack] J.BURKE26> Ok, and since Bryan asked about Pascal 2.0, will you
consider upgrades of the compiler only (ie. for those with C 2.0 at a lower
price?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No.  Sorry, but these upgrade prices are pretty darn low
when you consider development time, advertising, and production cost, and I
don't save in any of those areas.  Frankly, if the price is high enough to
keep folks away, I won't be able to do many (any?) more updates.

<[Jack] J.BURKE26> I understand, I was thinking ahead to when Pascal 2.0 comes
out...for C 2.0, the check's in the mail, thanks.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I was thinking of Pascal 2.0, too.  :)

<[Dave] D.MILLER132> OK, I was wondering if I already have a different ORCA
language (in my case ORCA/M 2.0) if there was a way to get only the portions of
C 2.0 necessary to add it to my current shell, or if I still have to purchase
the entire package?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> You have to purchase the entire package.  We don't have high
enough volume to produce two different packages, and the majority of the owners
for each language own only one.

<[Dave] D.MILLER132> OK, that's what I was asking.  Thanks.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Go ahead, Ray, and welcome to A2Pro.  I haven't
seen you here before. (Of course, I forget lots of things.  <grin>)

<[Ray] R.DOSH> Ne''er RTC'd before... Mike, 2.0 sounds great, but no matter how
much you give we always want more ;). Therefore, wither Orca/C++, or better, a
_THINK_-compatible Orca Class Library?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> There absolutely will not be a _THINK_ compatible object
library.  I respect the copyright laws too much for that. As for C++, that is
still possible.  C++ and BASIC, acording to my informal surveys, may still be
popular enough to justify development time.  I'll be deciding about that early
next year, after Pascal 2.0 is out.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Ray, in my opinion a TCL-compatible library for
ORCA would be a mammoth job that wouldn't sell very well, though folks who use
TCL on the Macintosh would find it very nice indeed.  The toolbox translations
and other things to make TCL run on the IIgs instead of the Macintosh entail
_much_ more than the necessary changes to the compiler, which are significant
by themselves.  :)  But it's a great question, and thanks for brining it up!

<[Ray] R.DOSH> I respect Mike too much to intend any harm...I was intending
that there would be cooperation with Symantec.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Before we get to Bill Tudor's next question, I
think Mike has some benchmarks to show new compiler performance.  Mike?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Sure -- here's some comarison times for execution of the
benchmarks that come with ORCA/C 1.3.  You can check the source out to see
what's happening.  All times are on an 8MHz GS:

     Gamm     16.20    14.97
     Fib      11.62    11.55
     Float    39.50    23.01
     IMath    22.38     0.24
     Prime    33.76    26.32
     Quick    16.40    14.72
     Savage   32.76    32.47

And for compile times, here's the raw times for compiling Minicad.cc, again in
seconds, under C 1.3 and C 2.0:

     Minicad.cc Compile    45.07    19.43

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Mike, could you repeat the Integer Math
benchmark? It came out saying the new compiler takes "0.24 seconds" to execute
the code. Is that right?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Yup.  Although, in truth, the compiler ran the code faster
-- I just couldn't stop the stopwatch any quicker.  :)

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Mike, what compiler change accounts for the
Integer Math program going from 22.38 seconds to less than a quarter-second?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Loop invariant removal and common sub-expression
elimination.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Matt -- incidentally, integer math is faster, too, but the
IMath benchmark doesn't get to show that.  :)

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> Mike: is that compile time the first compile or
subsequent?  <sorry to intrude>

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> The compile time is for a second compile -- the first takes
about the same as 1.3, since that's when the symbol file is actualy built.  Let
me explain how that works. The main problem with precompiled headers in C is
that you can change the headers with #defines before the #includes.  There are
a lot of ways to deal with that, but since our main audience is hobiests, I
wanted a way that was 100% transparent.  The compiler builds a .sym file in
the first compile, then reads it on subsequent compiles.  If you change
something that effects the .sym file, the compiler is smart enough to see the
change and rebuild the .sym file automatically.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> After all this talk tonight a question comes to mind...Do
_you_ program all this stuff yourself?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Yes.  Every iota.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> Nice job.

<[Todd] T.MYERS4> Hi, Mike I was having a problem with PRIZM ignoring tool
start-up's that weren't desktop related. I was wondering if PRIZM in C/2.0 was
changed to let these pass to the system? (ie. Note Synthesiser in particular)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Yes.  I did look at you bug report, and the bug is fixed.  I
tried e-mailing back to you to let you know, too, but I goofed on the address.
I guess you never got the re-send, either.  Sorry.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> I was copied on that Todd, so I know Mike tried
to send you a new Prizm. He probably confused the heck out of T.MEYERS4, too.:)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> :)

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Anything else, Todd?

<[Todd] T.MYERS4> Yes, Mike I got the letter (thanks) but no Prizm. Oh well.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Shoot.  I'll make a note to send it to you.

<[Todd] T.MYERS4> Ok, and I'll be waiting for your flier!

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> Okay, mine is fairly simple...   The last times I
used ORCA was a Hayden version (and played with one of the very FIRST Byte
Works one)  the system was kinda hard to use.  I was looking for a basic
description of the setup and operation of the new system... (i.e. how easy it
is to use) I'm getting into C now :) and need to pick my software.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> If you're using floppies, setup is very simple:  make a
working copy of the program disk.  If you're installing ORCA/C on a hard disk,
things are more complicated.  You have to decide which way you want to install
the system, then run Apple's installer, click on the right script, and click on
Install.  :)

     There are two ways to use the system, from the text or desktop mode.  The
manual assumes you will be using the desktop system, which is very straight-
forward.  It's just a standard desktop program.  The text system is harder to
use, but it is smaller and faster.  It also gives you the option of picking
from several different commercial and PD editors, utilities, and even a
compatible shell, now.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Does that answer your question, Max?

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> Hmm, from the desktop mode, can you select files
using windows? I guess that's presumed?  How much memory would I need MINIMUM
to be most effecient? He answered most of it, Matt (esp the part about the
installer script etc)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Yes, the desktop system gives you a window-based editor, as
well as window-based text output.  As for memory, it depends... For short, text
programs, it's still _possible_ to use 1.25M.  I'd recommend more, and more is
required if you're doing desktop programming.  I'd say a minimum of 2M for
effective use of Prizm for desktop programming, and more will make things go
faster.  (Of course, 4M of memory costs about $130, now.)

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> Thanks.

<[Bryan Zak] SOFTDISK.INC> A quick, useless question:  Does C 2.0 support C++
style comments?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No.  And there was a very interesting discussion about that
among the beta testers, one of whom served on the ANSI C committee. The initial
reaction was "we want them" to "well, why not?"  By the end, there were still
two holdouts who wanted // comments, but the rest of the beta group seemed
convinced that // comments would actually be a very bad thing.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> I would have voted for them. Every C compiler I use now
supports that.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> "Every C compiler...supports them."  Begging your pardon,
that's not true.  If a compiler supports them, it's NOT an ANSI C compiler, and
that's the problem.  Try this 100% legal ANSI C program, and tell me what it
gives on your other compilers:

     a = b //* this is legal! */ 4;

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> They have directives to turn the feature on/off.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Understood.  And I considered that.  I just didn't do it.
The feeling was "all of C++ or none of C++," and I agreed with it.

<[Bill] W.TUDOR> Ok. Sounds ok to me.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> (Bryan asked one of my questions).  I was wondering
what I am missing from the 2.0 you sent me.  I assume I still need the upgrade
(it works great).

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Bascally, what you have is a beta release of the compiler
itself.  The final release has more features, less bugs, and a manual.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> Oh a new manual?  I came in late, what is the package
cost again?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> $50 if you purchased ORCA/C before 1 Sep, $25 if after,
plus shipping.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> Thanks.

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Will C 2.0 support setting the optimize pragma from the
command line? Editing the source file to change the optimization level all the
time gets pretty tedious, especially if I have a directory of 1000 files that I
want to blast test the compiler on. Please consider it.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No. (By the way, I _am_ keeping track of the things you ask
for that didn't make it.  :)

<A2.LUNATIC> Not exactly on ORCA/C, but on updates of all of your languages:
Have you given any (more) thought to having a kind of "subscription" service
for your language updates?  A la "Pay X amount of money, and get Y number of
minor updates, (not including major ones like C/Pascal 2.0) whenever it is that
they come out."

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> We've considered it, Luny, but for a variety of reasons it
seems like a bad idea.  It would take a fair amount of time to administer, and
we could use that time for other things.  I don't think it would bring in a
significant amount of additional money.  Last, but most important, we have no
fixed schedule for updates.

<A2.LUNATIC> Ok.

<[Guy] THE.VAGRANT> In regard to a command line switch for optimization... I
would like it expanded to all appropriate pragmas (ie stacksize, memorymodel,
etc)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I doubt I will ever do that, but from a script file you can
do effectively the same thing.  Do a #include for a single "options" file from
each program, and create the options file in your script.  Works great...

<[BILL] POPEYE> I got here late so you may have covered this, but are there any
changes to Prism?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Tons.  :)  The biggies are a complete overhaul for support
of System 6.0, and support for structs, unions, arrays, pointers, and
combinations thereof from the debugger.  I'd be happy to go into details.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Bill:  The list is pretty big, so it might be
better covered in The Byte Works category in the bulletin board, if that's all
right with you?

<[BILL] POPEYE> If you haven't elaborated on it already tonight, then I'd love
to hear about it. Sure the BB is ok with me.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Thanks, Bill.  At this point, before Todd's next
question, I think we should give away a prize.  :)  We do a private "draw your
name out of the hat" and then ask you a very simple question, and if you get it
right, you'll win a year's supply of Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco Treat!

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> No, even better, ORCA/C 2.0!  (Wrong card). So
let's see who we get... And the winner is....

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Heath Wilkinson (Job 3)!  Heath, you have to
answer a question first for legal reasons, so get ready, it's a toughie...

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> I'll do my best... :)

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> What company makes ORCA/C? (Think _really_
hard...)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS>

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Gee...  would that be the BYTEWORKS

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Right!  Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding!

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> (applause)

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Yeah!!  :)

<[BILL] POPEYE> clap.. clap..

<[Guy] THE.VAGRANT> Clap^2

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Thanks!

<[Bryan Zak] SOFTDISK.INC> clap clap!

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> So, what are you going to make us Heath?

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Heh!  I'll have to think about that one Pauley.  Wait
until I finish my finals first. :)

<[Dave] D.MILLER132> Happy Happy, Joy Joy!  :-)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Congrats.  Be sure and send me your mailing addr. by e-mail.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Congratulations!  Send your address and
information (like whether or not you're already a registered ORCA/C owner) to
BYTEWORKS in Email and Mike will take care of the rest.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Todd Whitesel had the next question.

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Could you elaborate on the #include of the "options"
file idea? That should solve my immediate problem, but I'm not sure what you
mean. I already have a script for compiling/linking/running and so on; what do
I add and where? I.e. I thought we could change the #include paths but not
actually sneak in an include file...

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Let's say you just want to handle the optimize pragma.  At
the start of your script, put this:

   #pragme optimize -1 >options.h

Then, in each source file, put:

   #include "options.h"

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Ah. I still have to modify every source file though.
That's what I wanted to avoid.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> You can add as many lines as you want, just use >> instead
of > on all but the first.  You might also want to add: "change options.h cc"
just to make sure the language stamp is correct.

<[Todd] T.MYERS4> Mike, you said that PRIZM would display structures, would
that include Ptr's to structures. (ie. like in linked-lists)

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Absolutely.  Go wild.  Something like foo->bar[6].rec1 is
perfectly legal.  The restrictions:  You must use constant array subscripts,
and you must use ^ for pointers, not *.

<[Todd] T.MYERS4> OK, and it displays _real_ data not hex . :)

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Hex is real data!

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> :)

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> In Prizm, can you create unions?  i.e. look at a char
string as a long int?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No.  You can change the data type in ORCA/Debugger, but in
Prizm, you get the display type you used in the source.  You can look at
individual characters, as in str[4], though.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> Okay, I assume char strings are supported as 'special
cases'?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Sort of.  A string is, after all, an array of characters,
too.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> Okay, thanks.

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Exactly what has changed in the way standard I/O.
channels are handled from shell 2.0 and C 2.0? I.e. in terms of system calls
and patching and so on.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> A lot.  .CONSOLE is used exclusively.  When you run a C
program, it first looks to see if the standard I/O channels are already open
(as they would be for an EXE file), using the existing channels if they are.
Otherwise it opens 10, 11, & 12, uses these for standard and error I/O, and
closes the files when complete.

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Ok, to get a bit deeper, what is the difference between
shell 2.0 & C 1.3 and both 2.0 ?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> For text I/O, the difference is that the output doesn't go
first to the Text Tools, which are patched by the shell, and then have the
shell write the chars to .CONSOLE.  Instead, the characters get sent right to
.CONSOLE to start with.  (Or whatever file is open.)

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> I suppose WriteGS was used in both cases (i.e. not
DWrite) ?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> True.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Todd:  You can't DWrite to a path, like a
reference number.  Only to a device, and then it would have to "know" it was a
device, which won't always be the case.  (Well, that didn't make much sense,
but I hope you can figure out what I meant.)

<[ToddPW] A2PRO.TODDPW> Ok.

<[] Pauley [] P.BENSON1> How long is the upgrade offer in effect? Thanks.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Until Feb 28th, 1993.  After that, you can still upgrade,
but the price is $60.

<[Bill] POPEYE> In the new C, is there any enhanced support/compatibilty with
ANSI C specifically I'm thinking of the "\" continuation character.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> It's in the old C.  If you know of problems, e-mail me quick
-- there's still time to fix bugs.

<[Bill] POPEYE> Nothing with a "\" will compile for me, but after I take them
out, all is well.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I've used it -- send me a specific example, and I'll find
any problems and get them fixed.

<[Bill] POPEYE> Sure.

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> There certainly is a lot of interest in this
upgrade, Mike!

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Good.  I need it.  :)

<[Bill] POPEYE> Since we are off subject now, a how is Modula-2 doing? Is it
out?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> No, it's not out.  I just got a new D release a couple of
weeks ago.  It's getting pretty solid, but I haven't had much time to play with
it while I'm finishing C 2.0.

<[Bill] POPEYE> Great! I think it sounds interesting.

<A2.LUNATIC> Who's writing that one?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Guy in Australia -- Peter Easdown.

<A2.LUNATIC> Isn't there a German GS Modula-2, as well?  Have you ever seen it?

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I've seen some benchmarks, but not the compiler.  They're
supposed to swap me one soon.  (The benchmarks looked pretty good.)

<[Bill] POPEYE> What are the strengths of Modula verses C or Pascal? (novice
question here)

<A2.LUNATIC> It's too bad we can't improve the lines of communications with
those people in Europe and in Austrailia.  Things seem to pop up every once in
a while that no one had heard of, before.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Modula is sort of Pascal with units, done Wirth's way.  It
also has bit manipulation built in.  Sort of Pascal for System's programmers,
and systems programming is what C was designed for.

<[Bill] POPEYE> Sounds like a more powerful Pascal.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> These are both new compilers, derived from Wirth's M2, which
is now licensable.

<A2.LUNATIC> I took a course in Modula-2 over four years ago.  I really liked
it.  It was a pain to run on those mainframes at school, though.  I would have
really enjoyed having a GS Modula-2 at that time.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> More powerful in the low-level areas, and interestingly
enough, less powerful in some high-level areas, like I/O and sets.  (M2 has
sets, but they have specific restrictions.)

<[Bill] POPEYE> Ok, thanks.

<A2.LUNATIC> Well, for I/O we have GS/OS and the toolbox.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Incidentally, Pascal has most of this stuff in most actual
implementations.  The advantage in M2 is that they are a part of the standard.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> I probably should go, too, unless there are any last minute
questions.  Gotta say goodnight to my girls.  :)

<[AFK] M.DEATHERAGE> Thanks for coming, Mike!  We really appreciate it.

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> Heh, good reason, Mike!  Good evening, and good
luck!

<A2.LUNATIC> Yeah, thanks a lot, Mike!

<[Max Pendragn] M.HAMNER1> Thanks for the info!

<[AFK] M.DEATHERAGE> Anyone who has other questions can ask them in the Byte
Works category, #36 in the A2Pro bulletin board.  :)

<[Ray] R.DOSH> Thanks Mike.

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> Thanks for having me tonight, folks.  If anything else comes
up, feel free to ask in Category 36.

<A2.LUNATIC> I noticed that you were already mentioning Cat 36 in the
literature you sent out for ORCA/C 2.0 updates...  (:

<[Mike] BYTEWORKS> :)  We work fast, Luny... Well, so long folks.  Thanks again.

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Well, bye all (I want to catch the rest of the Hockey
Game) :)  Thanks for the C 2.0 upgrade!

<[A2Pro Leader] M.DEATHERAGE> Congratulations again, Heath!

<[Heath] H.WILKINSON2> Thanks Matt!


========================= End of transcript ==========================

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Jim Murphy                             "...you really should know that it's
Internet:  ujmurphy@mcs.drexel.edu     never too late to get up and go." 
GEnie:     A2Pro.Jim                   
AOL:       Jimurphy3                   - The Cure, "Doing the Unstuck" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2