HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis)
Subject: RE: Funeral music
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:04:38 GMT

Why does everyone seem to be picking massive, pompous works as preferred 
funeral music?  Here's my list:

(Pardon the lack of umlauts in the German titles)

Bach: Schafe konnen sicher weiden
Bach: Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme
Brahms: Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen (from Ein Deutsches Requiem -- picked
        by my late wife for her own funeral, as was the first Bach selection)
Elizabeth Poston: Jesus Christ the Apple Tree (an astoundingly beautiful a
        cappella hymn -- this IS written into my will, with music attached, for
        my funeral -- hopefully not for a long time yet! -- It is performed by
        the BBC Chorus on James Galway's Christmas album -- check it out!!)

Having played for many years in two concert bands, I've also fleetingly 
considered adding Sousa's The Stars and Stripes Forever to the list, but even 
though they have come to expect almost anything from me, I don't think my 
family would appreciate this.... it WAS played for my daughter's wedding, 
however.....
-- 
=>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+{*}+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <=
+>=> "Censorship ends in logical completeness when nobody is allowed to  <=<+
=>+>=> read any books except the books nobody can read."  - G. B. Shaw <=<+<=
+>=>+>=>+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<=<+<=<+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: clldomps@cs.ruu.nl (Louis van Dompselaar)
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 08:11:07 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In <7166@charon.cwi.nl> vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:

>Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
>I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
>greatest composer ever.
>
Especially when you know that someone once sorted out that about
xx% of Mozart's work could be directly related back to work of Bach.
(in that he used Bach's structures, parts of melodies, or whatever)
(N.B. as I'm not sure about the exact percentage, I won't make a
claim here. Maybe someone else knows).

This, of course, doesn't exlude Mozart's genius at all. After all,
it's a rather logical thing to do, to use material available in
new ways, in ways which were not seen by the inventor of the 
material. Also rather important is: the amount of material that
is added. This is what describes the composer.

And flames aren't necessary at all, as I will even state clearly
that I think Mozart was a genius. As was Beethoven and  a number
of other composers. All in their own ways, and, also rather
important, in their own times. Someone once noticed that 'Bach
had written far more works than Mozart'. Well, this is, of course,
true, but then again, Bach was a cantor, so he HAD to write a lot
of music. Would anyone say Beethoven's symphonies are worth
nothing because Mozart has written so much more of them? I don;t
think anyone will.
No, I think anyone could have his/her favourites, and claim
THEY THINK their's is the best ever. Of course, they can't claim
that he/she is, as this is rather a matter of personal taste.
To conclude, however, I must add that it's a well known fact that
Bach's been of great influence on the years to come after him.

Louis
-- 

Louis van Dompselaar      |||  Life is short, Life is tiny
clldomps@cs.ruu.nl         |    -- Heart Throbs
From: bobs@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bob Sutton)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music of the Fantastic
Date: 29 Aug 92 11:14:56 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

According to mc7g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Raymond Cote):
>I would like to find more orchestral works which are
>along this line; grounded in the fantastic and/or macabre.

Ok. May I suggest Witold Lutoslawski's "Music Funebre" (I think that's 
right) or the William Schuman "Sixth Symphony".  The former is supposed
to be some kind of mournful piece; I do have an off-the-air live recording
of it).  The Schuman symphony is just about the most sorrowful, mournful,
feeling-of-loss-type piece I have ever heard.  Lugubrious would be the
best one-word description.  It's written in a minor key and it stays
that way all the way through; I don't think there is a major chord anywhere
in.

Oh, I forgot one.  Walter Piston's "Incredible Flutist."  By the title
it sort-of qualifies.  The only fantastic think I can think about it is the 
trumpet part in the concert band arrangement I tried to play.  Not easy
when at proper tempo.

-- 
Bob Sutton                        Love, most bitterly and fiercely oppresses
bobs@gnu.ai.mit.edu		  those who fight it than those who offer
al876@cleveland.freenet.edu       their servitude.    -- Ovid (Amores)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Preparing vs. was-Re: Supertitling
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:59:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.013431.19617@indetech.com> dl@indetech.com (David Lieberman) writes:

>Everybody praises the Andrew Porter translations.  I have never heard
>any of them.  Perhaps they are wonderful.  I read his criticism
>in the New Yorker for 20 years.  He may write wonderful verse but 
>reading his prose was a real chore.  

Sorry you found it so.  He could commit the occasional tortured
sentence, and I certainly don't always agree with his opinions, but most
writers I know (myself included) envy his fluency.

>The rules of English syntax
>seemed to him a mystery to be.  

Example please.  I daresay he knew his syntax at least as well as the
rest of us.  Just because he sometimes liked inverted order (as in your
attempt at parody, which misfires badly in my opinion because he never
used "German" syntactical order like that) doesn't mean that his syntax
didn't hang together.

>The simple declarative sentence makes but rarely an appearance.  

Again, favor us with an example.  He does indeed try for variety in his
sentence structure (as any of us might if we had to turn them out in the
vast numbers he did), but most of them remain declarative.

>Are the translations good 

Yes.

This is to be judged, of course, by hearing them performed, not by
perusing them on the page.  Again, he doesn't mind an occasional
inversion of standard order, but when he does it's because it's the
order that makes the most sense when you *hear* it.

>or are
>they praised because of Porter's influential critical position?

Puh-leez.  Does ANYbody care what a critic says?  Wouldn't a lot of his
fellow critics LOVE the chance to jump all over him if the translations
were no good?  (As some of them do, when his book collections come out
and they grumble because *their* words aren't anthologized.)

Jon Alan Conrad
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Top Five Russian Operas (was: Top Ten Operas)
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:26:12 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <1992Aug28.002837.10204@cs.ucla.edu> pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:

>What are the top five Russian operas?

I don't know if I can keep it to 5, but here are my favorites:

1.  Tchaikovsky, Eugene Onegin
2.  Rimsky-Korsakov, Christmas Eve
3.  Rimsky-Korsakov, The Legend of Tsar Saltan
4.  Mussorgsky, Boris Gudunov
5.  Prokofiev, The Love for Three Oranges

I've seen all of those onstage, and adored them all.  There may well be
others I've never heard that I'd like just as well.  (Though I know that
The Queen of Spades doesn't do as much for me as any of the above.)

Rimsky really needs a re-examination (or maybe a first examination?) as
an opera composer.  His fairy tale works are utter joys; I get a buzz of
fulfillment at the end of Christmas Eve fully comparable to what happens
at the end of Meistersinger.

There was a good 2-part article about recordings of Russian opera in 2
issues of High Fidelity (by Conrad L. Osborne), back in 1977 or
thereabouts.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: simona@panix.com (Simona Nass)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Portuguese Polyphony
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:21:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <1992Aug30.180504.25872@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> tomanix@sintra.xip.dec.com (Antonio Rodrigues) writes:

> The Portuguese school of renaissance composers is beginning to be explored, 
>and Frei Manuel Cardoso is in my opinion one of the great composers although
>not very well known.

I was just ranting to someone about Cardoso's Et Egressus Est and his Aquam
Quam Ego Dabo. -S.
-- 
        Alumni of Stuyvesant HS of New York: e-mail stuy@panix.com
    if you wish to participate in compiling an alumni e-mail directory
---------  simona@panix.com    or    {apple,cmcl2}!panix!simona  ----------
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, though I do have an opinion on everything.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer)
Subject: Re: Joining the dots ...
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 00:19:34 GMT

Just some more ideas on books about music notation:

I saw the book "De Gregoire le Grand a Stockhausen" in the University 
Library. It is in French only, not bilingual as I thought it might be.  

I also saw a book by  A. Beverly Barksdale "The Printed Note. 
500 Years of Music Printing and Engraving".  This book describes pieces
which were exhibited January 14-Feb. 24 1957 (at the Toledo Museum of Art).

Anyway, it has a wide range of examples with descriptions.  And there is a 
long bibliography at the end.

The book by Carl Parrish that I mentioned is called "The Notation of
Medieval Music".  Its a good book.

However, I still think that two of the books that I recommended to you in my 
last post Willi Apel's book and the more recent one by Richard Rastall 
are the best.

Katherine
MEYER@UUISIS.ISIS.ORG
Canada




Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: Scelsi piano music review
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:19:16 GMT

In article <fcsyl2p@rpi.edu>, mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd M. Mccomb) writes:
>
>Giacinto Scelsi (1905-1988) wrote one of this century's largest sets
>of piano music.  This pianistic output was concentrated into two
>relatively brief periods: 1930-1941 and 1952-1956.  At that point,
>Scelsi's compositional development forced him to largely abandon keyboard
>instruments -- until then, the piano had been by far his most-used
>vehicle for self-expression.  Scelsi was a virtuoso pianist, and even
>his most experimental compositions in this genre show a marked pianistic
>conception.  The place which this output will hold in the repertoire
>remains to be seen -- Scelsi was basically 'discovered' in the 80s.
> 

[reviews of some new CDs]

--------------------------

Excellent reviews, Todd! Could I ask somebody a favor and get them to post a
full list of currently-available Scelsi CDs. They often appear (of course) on
small labels and are hard to track down, especially in Houston which has *NO*
decent classical record stores apart from the typical chains offering $3.99
Southwest-Ukranian-Sugar-Processing-Plant-#7-Plays-Best-of-Vivaldi type
offerings.

Thanks,
Bill


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: La Traviata
From: Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Thursday, 27 Aug 1992 17:43:54 EDT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

While I, in general, agree with Jon Conrad's comments on my thoughts about the
trouble Traviata has on recordings, I want to take this opportunity to clarify
a few areas where we may not see eye-to-eye.

1. Milanov and coloratura. I did not write as clearly as I should have. Surely,
 no one would say that having to negotiate Leonora's Act I and  Act IV cabalet-
tas requires casting a coloratura in the part. Yet, we    tend to say that ne-
gotiating Violetta's Act I cabalettas (really just Sempre Libera and the caden-
za in Un di, felice) requires casting a lighter voice in the part than the rest
of Violetta's music demands. Forty years ago, Milanov set the world standard
for Leonora. Today, her recording sounds sloppy. The funny thing is the way we
forgive bad coloratura in Trovatore, but not Traviata. Can anyone recall Eva
Marton's Trovatore? Would anyone let her do Traviata? I want the passagework
to be cleanly and accurately sung in both parts. The same goes for Gilda, Elena
in Vespri, and other Verdi operas of that time period. We accept lighter weight
than we should in Traviata and Gilda and this diminishes the opera.

2. Alfredo is not Manrico, but his music is as heavy as many other Verdi tenor
parts. All of his music in Act II scene 2 requires a level of power and thrust
beyond otherwise wonderfully elegant tenors, such as Valetti (and -- here we
disagree -- Kraus). I had the opportunity to see Valetti sing several Alfredos
at the Met. Everytime, he ended up pushing for volume and singing sharp. I can-
not recall his having pitch problems in any other role -- but my memory may be
going. Add to the Act II scene 2 music "O mio Rimorso", and you cannot get away
 with a voice lighter than -- say -- the Duke in Rigoletto's.

3. Conducting. Traviata demands a conductor who trusts the score, who doesn't
feel the need to turn it into something "better". Toscanini and Monteux show
this trust. Jon is right in saying that Previtali does as well. I do not hear
such respect for the work in Levine, Pretre or Kleiber's accounts of the work.

I have always found it curious that Trovatore attracted conductors such as Von
Karajan, Levine and Mehta and brought out the best in them -- a wonderful sense
of energy, rythmic drive and precision, nuances in orchestration, etc. They
seem to be willing to let Trovatore play itself in a way that they won't for
Traviata. (See if you can find the 1960/61 Salzburg Trovatore with Karajan,
Price and McCracken. Among other things, listen to the dotted sixteenths in Di
quella pira. Wow! "Major" conductors can't resist the urge to desecrate Travia-
ta; house conductors respect the work. The fact that Monteux and Toscanini
did wonderful Traviatas makes me wonder if there is a generational aspect to
this issue.

4. I find you very persuasive on Di Provenza.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 00:13:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.224302.6671@nuscc.nus.sg> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.170343.10602@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
>Apter) writes:
>>
>>Brian Yoder calls Cage evil.  You foam at the mouth.  Cornelius
>>Cardew calls Cage soulless.  You laugh it off.  Something's gone
>>wrong here. 
>>
>The main thing Paul de Man taught at Yale was how to read texts.  I get the
>impression that you are not doing too well with Cardew's texts (including the
>very excerpts you reproduced) or my own.  What seems to be wrong is that you
>are trying to read Cardew the same way you read Yoder.

Cardew wrote loopy polemic.  Yoder writes ploopy emetic.  Am I getting
warmer?


>Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
>National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
>Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
>Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Subject: Re: Cornelius Cardew
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:32:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.072848.7464@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
Apter) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.224742.6520@nuscc.nus.sg> smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen
>smoliar) writes:
>
>>	The Cardew I met was as far as you could imagine from a "foul and
>>ugly human being;"  and his music deserves far more attention than it is
>>currently receiving.
>
>Possibly -- probably -- yes to the latter.  His ideas seem largely
>worthless, owing in large part to the crude Maoism which permeates
>them.  Why not tell what you know about his political activities 
>during the period 1967-1972.
>
This may horrify you, but I was totally ignorant of the man's politics.  I was
too wrapped up in his ideas about music, notation, and performance.  I'm sorry
you found TREATISE such a bore;  but, as we have seen, some people can be bored
by 4'33".  The very idea of the Scratch Orchestra was absolutely liberating at
a time when too many composers will over-indulging in the absolute determinism
of mathematics they did not particularly understand.  I was getting enough
politics on campus during those years.  I could not have cared less what
Cardew's politics were!  (Now that Deryk has observed that he never tried
to impose those politics on members of the Scratch Orchestra, I also see
no reason why I SHOULD have cared.)
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
Date: Sunday, 23 Aug 1992 19:02:22 EST
From: Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: How about some JOHN CAGE suggestions?

Ernest Barreto asked for some Cage recommendations.  I have a couple,
and the recs are limited to things which are available on CD.  After-
wards, I have a few more recommendations for things which I _hope_
will be on CD soon:

Joan LaBarbara Singing Through John Cage (New ALbion) NA 035 CD -- a
nice collection of old and recent vocal works, nice performances.

The Arditti Quartet -- John Cage: The Complete String Quartets
Volume 2 (Mode 27).  This volume contains the _String Quartet
in Four Parts_ (which is generally regarded as an important
transitional work) and _"Four"_ (1989), which was written for
the Arditti.  I listened to _"Four"_ yesterday and I think
it is a lovely piece.

Yuji Takahashi -- _Sonatas and Interludes_ for prepared piano
(Denon CM 7673) -- an oft-performed and popular work.

There's also a 2-CD set (which I don't have) which has all the
"Time" pieces -- 4'33'' (I'm not kidding), 45' for a speaker,
and the pieces for percussion and piano (the timings of which
are too complicated for me to remember).

_Music of Changes,_ a large piano work written using the I Ching,
is also available on the Wergo label performed by Herbert Henck
(he also recorded the Stockhausen Klavierstuecke).

Now, for pieces which I don't think are on CD -- the _Etudes Australes_
for piano are frequently mentioned in Cage literature.  I've heard
some live and liked them.

The _Freeman Etudes_ for violin are fairly recent (1977-78?) and
are supposed to be recorded by Irvine Arditti (of the Arditti Quartet).
Haven't seen this yet.

This isn't an exhaustive list -- I imagine others will have recommendations
to make too.

Bob
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cardew and "people's music"
Date: 30 Aug 92 09:28:40 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Aug28.215156.8782@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.150812.24215@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>Well, the US has got Howard Hanson, Walter Piston, Samuel Barber, William
>>Schuman, Vittorio Giannini, and a whole bunch of similar hacks who sound
>>pretty near indistinguishable from Khrennikov and Schchedrin and who are
>>played by the major orchestras solely because of their similar
>>acceptability to a bureaucratic establishment.  

[...]

>b) Does Barber really belong in there?  "Knoxville" and several other
>works are actually pretty interesting.

I would include "The Lovers"...which, at least the text, has *not*
been generally acceptable to the symphonic establishment.

>c) How much Giannini do we hear around here?

I have only heard Giannini *once* -- in a *song recital*.
Outside of that, this is the only time I've eeven heard Giannini's
name even *mentioned* in a serious discussion!

>Ditto Hanson and Piston?

Um, Hanson one does hear on rare occasions.  Piston is almost
universally ignored.

>>That's what I meant, not
>>that the specific works would be the same.  And I would expect 19th-century
>>warhorses to be similarly over-represented in both cultures.

It's becoming more the case in recessionist attitudes.

>>Are there even empirical studies of *American* concert programming that
>>address this sort of question?
>
>Yes.  For one thing, there are statistical analyses made every year 
>by the Am. Symph. Orch. LEague.

And there are ASCAP awards for adventuresome programming to
encourage the performance of new works.

I would say that it depends on the orchestras.  Once might hazard
a guess that the major orchestras are more conservative these days
than the regional orchestras, as the regionals are more willing to
use new works to achieve visibility.

Some major orchestras pride themselves on championing new music,
usually dependant of the impetus of the music director. (Example:
Leonard Slatkin, St. Louis Symphony)


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical