From: krulwich@zowie.ils.nwu.edu (Bruce Krulwich)
Subject: Re: Almah (was Re: Supposed Talmud quotes  (was Re: Almah in Isa 7:14)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences, Evanston, IL
	<KRULWICH.92Dec30111428@zowie.ils.nwu.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan5121023@polaris.utu.fi>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:50:07 GMT


Ah, the plot thickens, as more "proofs" come to light about what the Hebrew
word "alma" means.  Let's take a look at Laura's input...


ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:

> The meaning of these words can also be seen based on their usage in Tanach.
...
> in the verses using 'almah' (Gen 24:43, Ex 2:8, Ps 68:26, Prov 30:19, Song
> of Songs 1:3, 6:8 and Is 7:14) the girl(s) can only be a virgin. 

Well, let's take a look.

Gen 24:43 is when Eliezer is looking for a wife for Yitzchok, and is praying
to G-d for assistance in finding her.  He says roughly "please let the alma
who offers to help be the wife for Yitzchok."  Now, if you were Eliezer, would
you pray to Hashem and say "let the woman who offers to help..." or "let the
virgin who offers to help..." ??  The first makes alot more sense, and is the
essence of the prayer.  Hardly a case of "can only mean virgin."

Ex 2:8 is when Pharoh's daughter asks Moses's sister to fetch a Jewish nurse
for Moses.  The Torah says "and the alma ran to get the baby's mother."  What
exactly does Miriam's virginity have to do with anything?  Obviously the verse
is saying that the young woman ran to get Moses's mother.  Again, I don't see
how it makes sense to mean "virgin," let alone that it "can only be a virgin."

Ps 68:26 discusses women playing music.  What does their virginal status have
to do with anything?  Why can it "only mean virgin?"

Prov 30:19 discusses "4 things that I don't know: the way of vultures in the
air, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the sea, and the way
of a man with an alma."  It sure seems that this is referring to sexual
activity, so it's hard to say it means a virgin.  "The way of a man with a
woman" makes perfect sense.

Song of Songs 1:3 says that "the aroma of your ointments is good, for flowing
oil you are known, therefore alma's love you."  Again, what does this have to
do with virginal status?  It makes perfect sense to see this as "and therefore
young women love you."  Where do you see that this must mean a virgin?

Song of Songs 6:8 talks about "60 queens, 80 concubines, and alma's without
number," in relation of sexual practice.  The verse goes on to say "my dove,
my undefiled one, is but one."  That would seem to say that the "alma's
without number" are in fact _not_ undefiled, and hence not virgins.  It's
hardly the case that this "must be a virgin."

Is 7:14 of course talks about an alma giving birth.  Now, x-ians believe what
they do, but non-virgins give birth all the time, so it's hardly the case that
this "can only be a virgin."

** SO HERE WE HAVE IT: All the verses that you cited as "can only be a virgin"
** can in fact be read quite nicely as not-necessarily--virginal young woman.
** In fact, several of them (Prov 30:19, S'o'S 6:8, and Is 7:14) are much
** easier to see meaning a non-virgin.

Thank you Laura, for reinforcing my belief that the word "alma" in the Tanach
means a not-necessarily-virginal young woman.


> As to Prov 30:19, I have an interpretation for it by Bruce Tiffany, if
> anyone is interested...

This is interesting.  You first give a list of citations, and then say "as to
Prov ...."  Did you even notice that Prov 30:19 was in the above list also?
Or did you just copy the list above out of some book without looking at them?


> > BTW, can you tell me how you get the phrase "shall conceive" from the
> > original Hebrew?  The Hebrew actually says "is pregnant" in the present
> > tense.
> 
> The point is that you have to look at the whole verse, not dividing it 
> into tiny pieces (like Rashi) or trying to force it into a larger "context".
> In the beginning of the verse it says: 'Lachen _yiten_ Hashem hu lachem 
> ot...' (Therefore the Lord himself _will give_ you [plural] a sign), and 
> the description of the sign follows.

That's right.  The Hebrew definitively says "Hashem _will_give_ you a sign ...
a woman _is_ pregnant and _will_ bear a son."  Simple grammer tells us that
the woman is already pregnant, and that it's the birth of the son that is
upcomming.


I suggest that any Jews who even partly believe in this stuff give the
citations you're given a good hard look, and see if you _really_ think that
they mean what it's claimed that they mean.  It's clear to me that Laura
didn't even look at the above list of verses, because in no way do they show
that "alma" means a virgin.  In fact, having now seen the list, I'm even more
convinced that it means "young woman."  Thank you Laura.

Any Jews out there who have questions about Judaism, or the Jewish view of the
Torah, the Messiah, or of sin and forgiveness and redemption, please send me
e-mail.


Dov (Bruce) Krulwich
krulwich@ils.nwu.edu