From: agoodrid@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky)
Subject: Re: Liberal males a problem?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:28:00 GMT

In article: <DRW.92Dec12163315@euclid.mit.edu>
drw@euclid.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley) writes:

>In article <11DEC199222363057@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu>
>agoodrid@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky) writes:
>   Empowerment as you define it needs a certain environment to flourish
>   does it not?

>   How does this environment come about, and how does it contribute to
>   empowerment?

>   It seems to me that you can bat your head against the wall all you
>   want but if the powers that be don't give you the power to manage
>   your life as they do theirs you are not empowered.

>Yuck.  If you need someone else's permission to become empowered, you
>aren't.  Empowerment is the flowering of the self *in opposition to*
>others.  There is a constant amount of power in the world; you get
>some only by extracting it from others.  They are not going to give it
>up willingly.

I'll admit the wording suggests that something must 'given'.  However,
I disagree with the notion that it has nothing to do with empowerment.
In a sense, what is 'given' is an environment (respect?).

In any case, I was referring to Wendy's definition and I was willing
to go with it.  But to continue on..

Sure, people with power don't like to give it up - but some do, right?

I'll agree that one aspect of empowerment involves opposition.  However,
its not opposition to everyone (it can also be conceptual and not just
a person).  A child can be furnished an environment in which they can be
become empowered.  If you furnish a lousy abusive environment do you
think the child will be as empowered as the child above?  If someone has
an advocate it is much easier to develop independence.

One of feminism successes (IMO) is to bring together experiences that
might not otherwise be shared.  This act can (but does not
neccessarily) lead to better understanding of oneself and onto
independence.  We don't grow up separate from society.

>As long as individual women keep looking for some outside person or
>group to "empower" them, they will be oppressed.

Again, I'm not talking about permission to be empowered, unless you
see providing an environment to allow the product of independent
thought as permission.  Surely you are not against encouragement?

Oppression will occur with or without empowerment.

>  Once they say to
>those around them "I *will have* more than you schmucks.  Get out of my
>way!" they will have power.

I don't think its that easy.  But I will agree that personal
commitment is *essential*.  How do you get it?  Is that what we are
disagreeing about?

>Yes, a proper and supporting environment helps.  But the esence of the
>acquisition of power is the will to possess it.  Everything else is
>details.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here.  Some of the 'details' are
very important.

I see empowerment not just as a state of mind but a mindful
independence that can be exercised.  Your definition would seem to
exclude the exercise part.  That's fine.  It just means we are talking
about different things.  I hope this clears up what I was getting at
originally.

Well, this is getting too long already so to reiterate one of my
points in the post to Wendy: Men can play (must play?) a role in
the empowerment of women which (IMO) will include contributing to
their identity.

P.S.  Do women think that men develop completely independent of
      women's influence; that women do not empower men every day?
      I would hope not.

Steve     AGOODRID@VAXA.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
To preempt potential flamers -
Substitute 'some women' for 'women' as needed
Substitute 'some men' for 'men' as needed

Newsgroups: alt.politics.sex