HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: WANTED TO BUY:  Old Magazines
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:02:04 GMT

Well folks, I've reached an impasse as far as sources for my
dissertation.  I'm now interested in buying up old copies of martial
arts magazines of all kinds, but especially old collections of Black
Belt.  My main criteria is that all the pages (or most of them) be 
there; I'm not worried about pristine condition, etc.  If somebody
has a collection that is really old (1920s-1940s), I'll talk to
the archivist at the Notre Dame Sports Collection, who has expressed
an interest in building a martial arts collection.  Of course,
donations of all kinds are welcome!

Dakin
burdickd@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.X. Saunders )
Subject: Re: Kyle II - William Cheung and scams
Originator: kxs5829@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:28:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.190712.24598@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.X. Saunders ) says:
>
>>Perhaps a course in elementary logic would be in order.  William
>>Cheung claims that he knows "classical" wing chun and nobody else does.  He
>>beats some other wing chun people.  How exactly are the two related?  The
>>existance of the second does not prove the first all by itself.
>
>Perhaps a course in elementary Wing Chun theory is in order.
>Wing Chun, dealing with chi/force of an opponent, relies more
>on the good structure, rather than the individual itself.
>It's not a game of tag.  That's why size/strength/etc
>does not matter much, as proven by Yip Man himself.
>Based on this, Cheungs challenge was based on the weakness
>in the persons structure and his ability to take advantage of
>this thru the stronger structure of classical Wing Chun.
>This is how the two are related.

	I agree that if someone's techniques/skill are better than an
opponents, it can outweight the opponennts advantage in height/weight/strength.
This is why a lot of people take martial arts.

	I happen to think that Wing Chun, as a martial art, is superior to,
for example, Karate.  But, if a Wing Chun stylist beats a Karate stylist, can
I say for sure that his Wing Chun was the reason?  No.  Replace Wing Chun with
"classical Wing Chun" and Karate with "modified Wing Chun", and you ought to
see my point.  Take that class.

>>William Cheung and Leung Ting are a couple of the bigger scams in
>>Wing Chun.
>
>I think your pitiful attitude is one of the reasons for the dissent
>and political problems within the Wing Chun Familly.  Both are good
>men and good fighters as are many of the people in Wing Chun.
>There was no need to turn this into an insult post, regardless of
>whether either one of us believes in what either one of them do.
>Especially when neither one is here to defend themselves.

	Well, since you know them so well, give 'em a call and invite them
to join in.

>And frankly, for someone who uses such weighty words I don't recall ever
>seeing YOUR name mentioned highly in the Wing Chun familly. Let's just
>leave it at that.

	Hey, I've had two, count 'em, two subject lines all to my self. :-)

	- Kyle

-- 
+-"Remember, [MS]DOS is sort of a UNIX deviant already" - dmoscny@piglet.-----+
|    // Only /\          kxs5829@ultb.isc.rit.edu                 cincinatti. |
| \ //      /--\MIGA     kyle@nick.csh.rit.edu                    oh.us       |
| \X/ SQLdb - $40 rdbms  Rochester Institute of Technology                    |
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:51:45 GMT

Great reply David, just a few things I wanted to respond
on:

poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu (David Poore) says:


>WC is very effective (what isn't?) if you train right. I think as a rule
>it develops good infighting skills very quickly, but then there is a
>significant slowdown developing medium and long range skills. (At least
>at the school I studied at)

Actually, Wing Chun deals with all three ranges, but chooses to do most of it's
fighting in the middle and short distances.  Reason being, beacuse
the longer distances are felt to be unnecessary when WC principles
are applied correctly.  So far, I have satisfactorily seen it proven.
Long distance is a time for closing the gap by using the Wing Chun
Entry Technique, medium more of a neutral call/response/awareness
time, and at short distance you should allready be engaging your
opponent or he should be neutralized by that time.


>More subtle aspects like grappling might not
>be developed very fully in this art (at least to my novice eye), and
>those that are in the system are fairly obscure. 

Depends what your defintion of grappling is.  Infighting itself is
many times considered grappling by definition.  I can definately say
that the Sticky Hands, which is unique to WC, is considered grappling.
If your talking about grappling as in "wrestling", then no that
is not in the vocabulary of WC because again it is considered unnecessary.
If your talking about joint locks and such (Chin Na), yes that is most
definately included in WC but at a later stage.  So are pressure points.
The concepts are definately not obscure, but the joint locks and
pressure points are deemed unnecissary for the novice
to learn until he has grasped the major concepts within Wing Chun,
including the "sticking hands" ability.  Wing Chun itself is more
of a "grappling" art.

>>read here in the past few weeks seems to be more of
>>a meditative pursuit ) 

>This is perhaps most commonly the way it is presented in the US (world?)
>today, but certainly not always the case. Taiji can be a very effective
>combat art, many believe among the most effective. Of course, we all
>know that it is really the individual that is more important than the
>art...

Definately true.

Don't forget though that when dealing with Wing Chun, the individual
is not the only important thing.  A big thing in Wing Chun is
to take advantage of another style's weakness in certain areas of
structure, rather than just the individuals weakness.

>Perhaps some of the other WC people will come out of the closet and give
>you their impressions too...

SWISSHHH.....

(ducks under Stephen Northcutt's axe)

Carefull when using those "coming out of the closet" terms!

SWISSHHH.....

THWACK!

>David Poore
>poore@ds9.scri.fsu.edu

Marty

Do

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: pmw2c@csissun8.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: Fencing
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun8.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 23:14:46 GMT

In article <7852@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>, achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert
Chou) writes:
 
|> Never having fenced in even a pseudo-martial-arts setting before, I
felt the
|> bout gave at least a hint of the real thing.  Not the flashy
swordplay you
|> see in the movies, but some realistic techniques that aren't allowed
in the
|> sport version.

If you are interested in a more "realistic" style fencing you might want
to 
contact a local branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism.  They do
duello
combat, which allows you to fight with rapiers, epees, maine-gauche,
florentine,
bucklers, draw-cuts, cloaks, hats, armoured gauntlets, fencing
in-the-round, etc.

				Paul Wayner
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: Re: Diff. betweeREAD/NEWn Eastern and Western thought
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:57:59 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

And I would like to give the proof here if anyone is interested.

'ALL GENERALIZATIONS ARE BAD' in terms of logic, is:
forall x and x = generalization, x is bad.
'All GENERALIZATIONS ARE BAD' is a generation and let it be x.
Using the rule of universial instantiation, 'ALL GENERALIZATIONS
ARE BAD' is bad.
So, what does this tell us???
Surprised that not too many people have learnt logic before.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Rats/MA
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:11:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: sei.1992Aug19.141141.10977
Organization: Software Engineering Institute


19-Aug-92 snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) Re: The rat, MA, and others

>Not to worry Lauren, I'll just turn the other cheek :-)

In the wise words of Archie Bunker: "Aw geez Edith."
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Rat's and stuff....
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:04:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.JON.92Aug19150422
Organization: University of Utah

In article <1992Aug19.173907.27131@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:


   Geeeeezzzee......

   Only on the Usenet (rec.martial-arts) can I sit down and
   expect to see a discussion on applying martial arts to rats.

   What's next?  Non-vertebrate creatures? :)

right on dude!  penicillin = genocide.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:05:59 GMT

a9j@vax5.cit.cornell.edu says:


>Hi. I'm afraid I just started reading this news group a little while ago and
>only started learning Kendo about a year and a half ago. But I believe I read
>somewhere that Bruce Lee first started out learning Wing Chung (forgive my
>spelling). Does that answer your question about its possibilities for
>effective technique?

He definately did study Wing Chun, but please don't use him as an
example for Wing Chun.  His structure was considered weak in Wing Chun.
When he came to the US and formed his personal fighting style (his
personal Jeet Kune Do, not the overall Art itself), he didn't have to fight
other Wing Chun people.  Because of this his structure was more defined
on what he had to deal with.

Many people don't know this but when Bruce returned to the main
Hong Kong Kwoon for a visit (in the early 70's, when Bruce was in
his top prime), he sparred with Yip Man.  Those of Yip Man's students
who were at the Kwoon that day were privledged to witness 80 something year
old Yip Man throw Bruce Lee around the room. 
Even though Bruce was fifty some years younger, had incredible speed,
stamina, and dexterity......by Wing Chun standards Bruce's structure was
weak and Yip Man was able to take advantage of this.  Bruce was a
Wing Chun exponent but definately not totally representative of the
art.


Marty

Do
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: lund@ssd.kodak.com (Nate Lund)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Organization: ...still trying...
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 22:49:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.215145.21512@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:

>[major snip]

>Depends what your defintion of grappling is.  Infighting itself is
>many times considered grappling by definition.  I can definately say
>that the Sticky Hands, which is unique to WC, is considered grappling.
                                 ^^^^^^
Nope.  (Not unique)

Grappling?  Well, I guess if that's your definition, well, I guess
you can define the words you use any way you like, but don't be surprised
if people misunderstand you.  (:-)

I understand grappling to be, well, to grapple.  As in grappling hooks.
To grab and hang on.  In the more mature grappling arts, it usually seems
to involve joint manipulation, pressure points, throwing, and ground work.
(Or some combination thereof.)

>[more major snip]

Not a flame, just a counterpoint.

Nate
nlund@kodak.com
From: achou@plasma.icsl.ucla.edu (Albert Chou)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: An Aikido Question (...what else!)
Date: 22 Aug 92 21:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of California at Los Angeles, EE Dept.

In article <173jduINNlu6@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>Punches are an extensive and integral part of the T'ai Chi curriculum.

Okay, then.  How about arts in which strikes aren't the main emphasis,
like aikido, as I mentioned.

Al
From: neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido, (effectiveness)
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 17 Aug 92 04:51:50 GMT
Reply-To: celia!neil@usc.edu (Neil Richmond)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <3446@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <1793@celia.UUCP> celia!neil@usc.edu (Neil Richmond) writes:
>>Obviously, if an experienced uke realizes that he is being led
>
>	Yup, my point is exactly the it's much harder to "trick" a judoka
>into giving up her balance than Joe Average Aikidoka, because her training
>is "be sensitive to your balance and always adjust to make sure you stay

Excuse me, but this is not true. I have found that it is extremely difficult 
to " trick " an experienced Aikidoka. There is no magic here, you can lead
any mind, if you are experienced enough. It becomes harder to be lead with
the more experience you have. This is true regardless of who is doing the
leading. It is true we give it up a little easier to beginners, but that is
because we are helping each other learn and if you responded to a beginner as
you do to an experienced Aikidoka, the beginner would learn nothing and give
up in frustration. 

I am a little surprised by these posts of yours, wharfie.  I thought you 
studied Aikido. Being sensitive, does not mean you give it up. This can
be very hazardous at the advanced levels. We are trained to give real,
strong and centered attacks at the advanced level. Actually, we are trained
to make centered attacks at any level. It is up to the nage to draw in the
attackers mind and body and take his center.

neil

-- 
Only 2694 shopping days left till the next millenium! 
Neil F. Richmond         INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu
Rhythm & Hues Inc.       UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)
From: exudms@exu.ericsson.se (David M. Stapleton,cs-tw,0364)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Basic Martial Arts
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:11:12 GMT
Reply-To: exudms@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article LJp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca, stbedi@taipan.uwaterloo.ca (Sunjay T. Bedi) writes:
>
>Your long sword and dragging pole method kung-fu is nothing compared to
>my frightening piglet style, as taught to me by Master Su-We, of the
>Wu-Shu pork society.


Char Shu Ding ? Any body out there hungry?
What do ya'll say,..lets Bar-B-Q this one!!!
Hau chr!

/New Dave
From: dccarr@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (david.c.carr)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Chito-ryu
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:15:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T


 From Corcoran and Farkas, p.62:

 Chito-Ryu
 Japanese system of karate founded by Dr. Tsuyoshi Chitose.  Chito-ryu
 emphasizes conditioning of mind and body before the actual practice
 of self-defense.  A combination of goju-ryu and shorin-ryu karate,
 Chito-ryu is structured according to medical principles.  Its moral
 code stresses fairness, tolerance, patience, diligence, courtesy,
 sincerity, and constant striving to better oneself spiritually,
 mentally, and physically.

 On p. 184-185:

 Another minor style is the Chito-ryu of Tsuyoshi Chitose, a disciple of
 four great masters: Choki Motobu, Chotoku Kyan, Chojun Miyagi,
 and [Gichin] Funakoshi.

 from another source (sorry, don't have the reference attached
 to this one):

 Chito-ryu - founded by Tsuyoshi Chitose, grandson of Bushi Matsumura,
 who trained under Arakaki of Naha-te, Kyan and Hanashiro of Shorin-ryu,
 Sanra Chinen of Okinawan kobudo fame, and Choki Motobu.  Uses Chitose's
 unique interpretations of kata from shuri, naha and tomari.


 Sorry I couldn't find any further info.
 Hope this is helpful.


Dave Carr
isshin shorinji ryu okinawa te
ronin, wa bun bushi no michi
"Don't push the river, but don't pull no punches."
david.c.carr@att.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: akif@sequent.com (Aki Fleshler)
Subject: Re: unbendable (was Re: Aikido, (effectiveness))
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 18:36:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.195036.22404@gtephx.UUCP> rakoczynskij@gtephx.UUCP (Jurek Rakoczynski) writes:
> [...] Having studied for a few years by this time, we
>where in class practicing "unbendable arm".  For those that don't know
>what this is, it's a excercise in ki where you have an outstreched
>arm, your hand resting on the person in front if you, and they try to
>bend your arm at the elbow while you concentrate on relaxing your
>muscles, projecting ki out your finger tip, etc., etc., etc.. 
>Anyways, I was working with my sensei, doing a great "unbendable arm"
>when all he did was a slight turn to the right while controlling my
>wrist/arm and sent me flying to the ground in a kote-gaeshi like fall.
>... A little leason in practicing concentration without having
>blinders on!

What I want to know is: what to do in the case of a bar fight in the 
unlikely event that I left my Unbendable Arm in the trunk of my car? :-)

-- 
Aki Fleshler                                  * akif@sequent.com
Sequent Computer Systems Inc.                 * (503) 578-4570
15450 SW Koll Parkway, RHE2-775               * FAX (503) 578-7569
Beaverton OR 97006-6063                       *
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: aikido<->judo
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <4Jc-99@engin.umich.edu> ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) writes:
>Perhaps the outcome of a judoka vs. aikidoka contest is just a question
>of relative skill and not of the arts?

	What I'm trying to say is that a skilled grappler of any kind
presents special problems vis-a-vis aikido techniques.  Another aikidoka
knows what's coming and what to do to stop it.  A judoka will feel you
try to take his balance and either prevent the attempt or go with it and
regain his balance.  A wrestler will feel you take his balance and bring
himself (and you too!) down to the ground as his own choice.

	Skilled practioners of striking arts don't present the same set of 
problems.  A karateka may be very solid and centered but typically has 
weaknesses along certain lines that don't matter when he's delivering a
strike but which are obvious openings to a grappler.  I don't at all mean to
imply TKD (or whatever) guys are easy to throw, just that they present
a very different set of challenges, **and a set of challenges that is known
and trained for in aikido**.  Like, "When uke punches he is strong _here_ 
and _here_ but weak _here_"...
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Capoeira Performance in Boston 8/15
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:42:10 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA


What: Capoeira Camara's 4th annual Capoeira Batizado
When: Saturday, 8/15, 7:00 p.m.
Where: Tsai Performance Center
       Boston University
       685 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston
       (near BU East stop on the "B" Green Line)
Admission: $10 in advance, $13 at the door
	   Call (617) 353-8724

I saw this event when they held it last year.  It included a musical 
performance by Samba Camara, a masters' roda, and a students' roda.  
Mestre Deraldo Ferreira has once again invited a number of capoeira 
masters from the US, Brazil, and Europe, and it should be an impressive
display of a unique and beautiful art.  

Hope to see you there!

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Summary: NOT
Date: 15 Aug 92 08:50:19 GMT
Originator: news@auspex-gw.Auspex.COM

In article <1992Aug15.022616.5889@uwm.edu>, ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
> lund@ssd.kodak.com (Nate Lund) says:
> 
> >Depends what your defintion of grappling is.  Infighting itself is
> >many times considered grappling by definition.  I can definately say
> >that the Sticky Hands, which is unique to WC, is considered grappling.
>                                  ^^^^^^
> >Nope.  (Not unique)
> 
> Then what other art has the "sticky" type hands to the extent Wing Chun
> does?

	You mean in the exaggerated fashion of today?  Not many, perhaps.  But 
I can think of quite a few that teach it as a portion of a well-balanced
strategy:

	Feng Shou
	Chung Ch'uan
	Hao Ch'uan (so-so)
	T'ai-sheng P'i Kua Ch'uan
	Yung-ch'un Ch'uan (a trick answer, perhaps...)
	Various T'ai-chi Ch'uan 
	T'ang-lang Pai Ch'uan
	Shuai Chueh (almost by definition)

	(I apologize for any misspellings, I am trying to remember 
	 the Wade-Giles romanization)


-- 
		Brian A. Ehrmantraut

BELL:   voice:(408) 492-0900  fax: (408) 492-0909  
USnail:	Auspex Systems, 2952 Bunker Hill Lane, Santa Clara, CA 95054  
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Altitude adaption
Organization: University of Utah
	<1992Aug21.175716.7744@col.hp.com>
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:22:34

In article <1992Aug21.175716.7744@col.hp.com> gee@col.hp.com (Ken Gee) writes:

   >Last week I spent five days in Colorado.  Ordinarily I'm a low-life 
   >(Washington, DC *is* at sea level, rougly), and I found the first few days I
   >had a low-grade, constant headache, and when I tried to run the second day
   >there, I got nauseated.  By the fourth day, however, I had very little trouble
   >on a five-mile run.  Was this unusually quick adaptation, or was I psyching
   >myself out that second day?  (This was Denver, incidentally, and the fourth
   >day was Golden.)  How long does it take for these physiological changes to 
   >occur?

   >-- Laura

	   It sound like you experienced altitude sickness.  This is a short term
   problem caused by a sudden change in altitude.  Mountain climbers usually spend
   a day or two just hanging out at higher altitude before attempting a climb to
   adjust to the altitude.  I don't know what the physiology is, but I do know that
   failure to take this adjustment time can result in death through pulmonary
   edema.
	   What I described as a change in blood oxygen capacity is a long term
   effect--several months at the least.

i'm no expert, but i'll tell you what i know: there is a short-term
compensation mechanism modulated through 2-DPG (2-diphosphoglycerate).
2-DPG decreases the affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen, which improves
the offloading of oxygen to the tissues.

as ken mentioned, an actual increase in hemoglobin molecules and/or
an increase in red blood cells takes a while.

altitude sickness is not fully understood, but it comes in two
flavors: pulmonary edema, and cerebral edema.  both can kill you.  i'm
not sure about cerebral edema, but pulmonary edema is more common in
people less than 25 years of age.


--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts