HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:29:06 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1ec8ajINNjf2@morrow.stanford.edu> GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan) writes:
>If you call yourself a whitewater kayaker and you
>too are blathering about what assholes rowers are, I would guess
>that you spend much more time talking about your sport than doing it.

Your guesses are just that: guesses.  However, some (but not all)
of the rowers who post to *this* group certainly behave like assholes.
The ravings about mythical "fears of loss of readership" in a previous
article come to mind immediately.  (This group was started by people
from the whitewater mailing list, and there's more than enough folks
around to keep it going, with or without rowers.)

>In both cases you have not yet acquired the patience, tolerance, and
>understanding of other athletic activities that comes with
>expertise in one.

Feh.  It is not for you to say what people may or may not have
acquired, or what sort of attitudes should go with it.  But if you
want to start enforcing attitudes, you can certainly try.  I suggest
you start with the rower who labeled whitewater paddling as "less
serious" than rowing last week...although he's already been
fairly well flamed (and rightly so).

---Rsk
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: rscarlet@world.std.com (Rich Scarlet)
Subject: Re: which canoe to buy?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
  In looking for canoes for lake use, there is one shortcoming of many of
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:40:16 GMT

the Royalex canoes. We have an Oldtown and have been very pleased with it
- rugged and easy to maintain, reasonably light, etc. BUT it has NO KEEL.
It's a pig in a crosswind on open water!


Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: shaw+@CS.CMU.EDU (Mary Shaw)
Subject: Re: Drytop Recommendations
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:45:15 GMT

My husband and I have the Kokatat full drysuit -- the one without
the spray-skirt sleeve, as we mostly paddle OC1.  We like them just
fine.  They have nylon-and-velcro covers for arms and legs but no
cover for the neck.  This our third winter with them coming up. 

We like the protection from abrasion on the arm and leg gaskets.  The
coverings are attached to the sleeves several inches above the wrist and
ankle, so it doesn't look like they'll interfere with gasket replacement.

We don't think we're in the sun enough for the UV to affect the neck
gaskets.  We have friends whose drysuits have the full-neck-with-pile
arrangement, and they think it's more nuisance than it's worth.
Their objection seems to be that there's too much material up around
their necks.

We do rinse them thoroughly after each trip (or weekend, anyhow).
We mostly store them on hangers in a cool, mostly-dark basement, except
that during the cold season after they dry we roll them (with the gaskets
inside the roll) and store them in a box in the van.  We rub one of the
rubber-saver preparations (silicon??  it came with the drysuits, anyhow)
on the gaskets a couple of times a season.



Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: hudson@cs.umass.edu (Rick Hudson)
Subject: Re: INPUT 2 CENTS WORTH!
Reply-To: hudson@cs.umass.edu
Organization: Dept of Comp and Info Sci, Univ of Mass (Amherst)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:16:36 GMT

>>>>> On 17 Nov 92 21:47:45 GMT, bml2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRIAN MICHAEL LUCY) said:
> In article <1992Nov16.054253.44814@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, doty@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> writes:
>Here's your chance!!
>
>I am not a weekend warrior.  I've played sports most of my
>life(soccer, football, racquetball, swimming), but due to a knee
>injury I can't really enjoy those.
>     One thing you may want to consider is how your knee injury may effect your
>     kayaking.  Most nonboaters think you just sit in a boat and use only your
>     upper body.  The truth is that one of the paddler's main contact points in
>     the boat is at the knees.  Personally, I sit in a position where my knees
>     are locked in place against the knee pads which I feel gives me greater
>     control than just the seat and footpedals.  My point, though, is that my
>     knees are under constant pressure and after a long day paddling I often
>     have bruises just to the inside of my kneecaps.  I don't know the nature
>     of your injury, but you may want to keep this in mind in making your
>     decision.

Just a word of encouragement, I blew out a ligament in my knee and wear a
Lenox-Hill brace when I play basketball. It has not prevented me from running
Class V drops or for that matter even worried me when I was on the water. I
tend to be slow and very careful on portages and scouts.  My 2 cents is to get
good instruction (from racers if possible), do gates to improve technique and
in doing so protect yourself from shoulder injuries, the bane of kayakers the
way knees are the bane of soccer players. Most of all don't take what Class V 
boaters say seriously.
- Rick

--

       Richard L. Hudson  -  Hudson@cs.umass.edu; (413) 545-1220; 
       Advanced Languages Project - University Computing Services
       Lederle Graduate Research Center
       University of Massachusetts             Amherst, MA  01003
From: rah@rampart.pa.dec.com (Robert Holt)
Subject: shark attack on kayak
Reply-To: rah@rampart.pa.dec.com (Robert Holt)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 22:28:57 GMT

I read about the attack on the sea kayaker off Ano Nuevo Is.
Fortunately he wasn't hurt, but I understand that the kayak
was holed.

What precautions can be taken short of giving up the sport?
Is there a color or combination of colors which would make a
kayak look less like prey?
/*-------------------------------------------------------+
 | Robert Holt - Digital Equipment Corp - Palo Alto, CA. |
 | Internet: rah@rampart.pa.dec.com                      |
 | UUCP:     ...!decwrl!rah                              |
 | DECnet:   TENAYA::RAH                                 |
 |                                                       |
 | "Conquer Tyrants. Fight Devils."                      |
 |                                                       |
 | Standard Disclaimers Apply...                         |
 +-------------------------------------------------------*/
From: whitaker@verdi.cs.unc.edu (Ross Whitaker)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Drytop Recommendations
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:58:17 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

In article <1ec3g1INNdr8@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.RXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Robin Warfield) writes:
>
>I am in the market for a drytop!  I am looking at the Nude-X but am
>a bit weary of the exposed neck gasket.  I am afraid it will get
>dried out and crack rather quickly after being in the sun.  The
>other drytop made by Stohlquist (the Txartus) looks like the lined
>neck collar would be too bulky when wearing a PFD and helmet.
>
>Any comments or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!!

I own a Stolquist two-piece drysuit with the exposed gaskets.  If 
properly cared for these gaskets will last a couple of seasons.  Caring
for them entails:

Not drying them in the sun
Storing them in a dark cool place (I keep mine in a nylon stuff sac)
Treating them after every 5-10 days of use with a protectant (seal saver,
	Armor-all, etc.)
Cleaning them with water after 'dirty' runs - muddy water, salty water, etc.
Am I missing anything?

I think that the covered gaskets would probably last longer - I can't
argue that one.  But the amount of sun these suits get during a typical
season of paddling doesn't seem to wear them out in a hurry.  This experience
is confirmed by lots of friends who paddle with similar suits.
I guess that it's worth pointing out that here in the southeast the sun
is probably not as intense as it would be in some place like Utah.  In fact,
much of our paddling is done in the rain and drizzle because that's when
the rivers and creeks come up.  

	Ross
From: doty@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: INPUT 2 CENTS WORTH!
Date: 16 Nov 92 05:42:52 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Here's your chance!!

Anybody and everybody with their 2 cents worth burning a whole in
their pockets is welcome to respond.

I got the chance to go on 2 rafting trips this summer and I loved it
and I want to continue.  However I went as a total novice(basically I
know nothing about the sport).  I didn't get to try kayaking then but
I would like to.  For all you kayak people out there, what would it
cost to get in to the sport(i.e. kayak, equipment, etc..)?  What
should I know before looking for equipment? etc...  

I am not a weekend warrior.  I've played sports most of my
life(soccer, football, racquetball, swimming), but due to a knee
injury I can't really enjoy those.  I am interested in kayaking as
something to continue with for some years.

Thanks in advance...  (reply public or private).

          +---------------------------------------------------------+
          |  Chad A. Doty                 Doty@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |
          |  University of Kansas         Doty@ukanvax              |
          |  --Computer Science           op77@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu |
          |  --Philosophy                 op77@ukanvm               |
          +---------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: IJIM@vm1.spcs.umn.edu (Jim Colten)
Subject: BWCAWA management plan
Organization: CIS at U of MN
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:56:29 GMT

 
Does anyone know of an electronic source for the recent Forest Service
management proposals for the BWCA?
 
Some 'hilites' gleened from the newspapers:
 
  1) close a small number of entry points.
 
  2) reduce the maximum number permits for any given day by 30%
 
  3) reduce the maximum size of a party from 10 to 6.
 
There are a number of (legally required) alternative plans also submitted
but the one 'they' are favoring include the above changes.
 
The public has 45 days to comment.  I do not (yet) have an address for that.
From: tkaczuk.apple.com (Rick Donnelly)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Reverse Screw Roll?
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:51:20 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Nov11.142004.26969@dg-rtp.dg.com>,
morgan@nolichucky.rtp.dg.com (Keith Morgan) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Nov8.201502.9392@ncar.ucar.edu>, chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster) writes:
> |> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears) writes:
> |> >billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus) writes:
> |> >>I need some help in doing a reverse screw roll and
> |> >
> |> >	Are you talking about what William Nealy refers to as a back-roll? 
> |> >	Needed when you get flipped while leaning all the way back on your deck
> |> >	(i.e. back of helmet touching stern of boat) in shallow water. Nealy
> |> >	has a pretty good description of this roll in his book (which I don't
> |> >	have with me at the moment).
> |> >
> |> The one time I flipped in very shallow water (80 cfs), I was leaning
> |> all the back.  My reactions went like:
> |> 	- drop paddle
> |> 	- put one hand in front of face
> |> 	- use other hand to push off bottom and roll up
> |> 
> |> The wrist on the hand that I put in front of face received a
> |> couple good cuts.
> |> 
> |> --Chris
> 
> You're lucky that's all that happened.  rest deleted
> -- 
> Keith Morgan

Chris,

I agree with Chris. While practicing in the surf, I once found myself in
the same situation. I too punched up off the bottom using my hand and doing
a peudo-roll (hey, I was new to this and lost the paddle with my left
hand). I was lucky to have performed this correctly, but a 17' kayak with a
180 lb. paddler has a lot of mass. I could easily have dislocated a
shoulder or broken any number of bones if I hadn't made it up before the
next wave. No matter how tempting, this type of thing should be avoided.
Get a grip and either roll or exit (to the ocean side or up-current side,
preferably) as a flooded kayak is a very heavy and dangerous thing in the
surf...

Rick
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: bent kayaks, Thrillseeker address?
Date: 17 Nov 1992 00:17:17 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

I'm amazed at the number of people who've confessed to having
experienced broach situations.  I thought this was less common
than it apparently is.  It is an extremely dangerous situation!
About two years ago an experienced kayaker became broached in
a class II- rapid on the South Fork American.  His friends were
finally able to extricate him and administer CPR, but not before
he had sustained major brain damage.  Wouldn't a keyhole cockpit
help in these situations?

Also, could somebody back east please send me the phone number
for the manufacturer of the Thrillseeker?  They never advertise,
and I seem to have misplaced a copy of their brochure.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: younger@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:06:55 GMT

In article <98141@netnews.upenn.edu>, rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
> In article <1ec8ajINNjf2@morrow.stanford.edu> GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan) writes:
> 
>>In both cases you have not yet acquired the patience, tolerance, and
>>understanding of other athletic activities that comes with
>>expertise in one.
> 
> Feh.  It is not for you to say what people may or may not have
> acquired, or what sort of attitudes should go with it.  But if you
> want to start enforcing attitudes, you can certainly try.  I suggest
> you start with the rower who labeled whitewater paddling as "less
> serious" than rowing last week...although he's already been
> fairly well flamed (and rightly so).
> 
> ---Rsk

   To those in this newsgroup who took my "serious" crack as putting down
 kayaking or conoeing (whitewater or otherwise), I sincerely apologize.
 It was intended to be "tongue in cheek" and was in reference to the name
 of this group.  I certainly did not intend to say that rowing was any better
 or more serious than any other boating activity in this newsgroup.  Again,
 I apologize.

   Now....the so called "flame" that is referred to was more smoke than light
 (and rather toxic smoke at that).  It's a good thing these flame suits have
 their own supply of oxygen.  The comments concerning rowing can be best
 characterized as 
        "most ignorant of what he's most assured."  - Measure for Measure, 
                                                      Act II

                                               jwy

  p.s. to rsk, if you think it's so easy to move a single racing shell
       in a straight line on flat water, then why don't you try it?  By
       the way, be sure to be wearing a pair of swimming trunks when and
       if you do.
From: petolino@joe.Eng.Sun.COM (Joe Petolino)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Chad's questions about kayaks
Date: 16 Nov 1992 19:24:20 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: joe

>A whitewater kayak made of poly will cost about $700 to $800 new. A paddle
>will cost $100 to $150. PFDs for about $50.

You'll also need a helmet ($40), spray skirt ($80), and flotation bags
(??? - maybe $50).  Depending on the temperature of the water you paddle
in, you may also need a wetsuit, drysuit, and/or paddling jacket.

>                                            A kevlar kayak will cost over
>$1000. Sea kayaks are longer and heavier and cost $800 to $1300 depending
>on options selected.

Sea kayak prices are a bit more than this - the popular fiberglass models
are now in the $1600-$1800 range.

These prices are, of course, for brand-new gear.  Many beginners start out
with used equipment, which is considerably cheaper.

One option to consider is to take some lessons with an outfitter, or club, 
who will supply you with gear during the lessons.

-Joe
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:42:39 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

Followups have been directed to news.groups, where the newsgroup
creation guidelines specify that such discussions should be held.

In article <1992Nov17.025309.19809@spock.UUCP> gumby@spock.uucp (Danny Richman) writes:
>They tried flaming rowers, because they were afraid that we would take
>over the newsgroup.  Now they realize that their own newsgroup is losing
>popularity, and a few more subscribers wouldn't hurt.

Actually, I flamed rowers because I didn't like their arrogant attitude...
much like the one you so eloquently expressed above.  Perhaps you should
desist speculating what "they" think and concentrate on expressing
your own point of view, thus leaving others to speak for themselves.

My two cents worth is that I would very much like to see a crew/rowing
group, so that we could focus rec.boats.paddle on the canoeing,
kayaking, and rafting topics for which it was intended.

Anyway, your claim that the newsgroup is losing popularity is dead wrong:
the Usenet arbitron surveys show that it has increased in readership each
of the last three years, at a rate somewhat greater than the growth
of Usenet itself -- in other words, the increase in readership is more
than can be accounted for just by the addition of more sites and users.
As things stand, rec.boats.paddle has plenty of readers, and plenty
of articles, and does not need any participation from rowers to
remain viable.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: ddennis@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dave Dennis)
Subject: Re: INPUT 2 CENTS WORTH!
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 03:39:34 GMT

scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears) writes:

>In article <1992Nov16.054253.44814@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> doty@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

>	My advice would be to try an inflatable kayak first. They are easier
>	pick up quickly, and you can rent them a lot of places. Hardshell 
>	kayaks are harder to find to rent, and take some getting used to 
>	before you can have fun in them. You can have fun in an inflatable
>	after about five minutes of practice. 

Oh oh... here comes the hardshell/ducky war again!

>	If you do decide to buy either of these, the gear isn't cheap, but
>	at least you don't (usually) have to pay anything once you have
>	the gear. Someone already quoted prices for hardshells; I think
>	inflatables run around $800, but I could be off.

If you go this way, I can recommend a few good boats...
You may have to spend up to $1000 on an inflatable (Hyside).  There are
some cheap (Sevylor) ones that you can get for less, but be careful of
vinyl boats, they are flimsy.  You definately want Hypalon or PVC.  
Hyside, Riken, and Aire are good brands among others. 

I have been a rafter for 16 years, and find duckying a *lot* of fun.
They are indeed easier to find as rentals, and are a little easier
to learn.  Kayaks are quicker, more manuverable, and generally
easier to run in nastier stuff ONCE you get a bombproof roll!

Dave

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: lib@cbnews.cb.att.com (Lib)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:02:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.025309.19809@spock.UUCP> gumby@spock.uucp (Danny Richman) writes:
>	Alright!!! I'm sick of everyone whining about how rec.boats.paddle
>doesn't have enough traffic, and how they think that a rowing newsgroup
>could never exist.  The fact is that a rowing newsgroup has much more potential
>as a newsgroup than any other "boats" newsgroup.  Colleges around the country
  
Interesting. I posted two questions recently (about how to set the 
vanes and which gear to use on the Concept II and asking for suggestions
on erg workouts) and got a grand total of one answer. 
   
If indeed there are lots of rowers out there I'd still like to know 
what you think.
    
Also, any suggestions on where to buy rowing clothing? Probably by
mail order?
  
Thanks for any help.
From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullivan)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.boats.crew
Date: 17 Nov 1992 18:04:03 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

I originally opposed the creation of a separate newsgroup for rowers
on the basis that there are a great number of things that human
propelled watercraft sports have in common, as well as what could
be a celebration of sorts in their differences.  I have already
detailed their similarities.

Historically this has been a low volume group anyway, and the true
posts about rowing or flatwater kayaking are few and far between,
except for the last couple weeks.

I certainly think it reasonable to discuss the merits of a separate
newsgroup for rowers, but certainly much of the discussion has been
far from reasonable.  If you call yourself a rower, and feel the
intense urge to rag on kayakers for whatever reason, my sense is
you haven't rowed very hard today, and probably should put in
another workout.  If you call yourself a whitewater kayaker and you
too are blathering about what assholes rowers are, I would guess
that you spend much more time talking about your sport than doing
it.

In both cases you have not yet acquired the patience, tolerance,
and understanding of other athletic activities that comes with
expertise in one.

So I change my mind and enthusiastically support the creation of
a rowing newsgroup.  I hope that the language encourages flatwater
canoeing/kayaking posts as there is a great deal in common as far as
training tips, boat care/repair, transport, safety, etc.

It will be easier to read 2 small groups of paddling and rowing than
to wade through a tide of post-teenage testosterone drivel to get
to the paddling and rowing.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: stamer@fang.att.com (Greg Stamer)
Subject: Re: Reverse Screw Roll?
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:29:20 GMT

If it works for you, you got it right!  To practice a reverse 
screw roll or styr roll, I adopt a normal forward tuck position
(chin toward deck) then *slowly* raise up, lean back and capsize.
As silly as it sounds be careful capsizing in this position as you
can injure your neck or painfully slap your ear on the water.

Ensure that you sweep with your whole torso and not just your arms and
don't rush the sweep, make it fairly slow and deliberate.
If the sweep from the stern to bow does not bring you up, simply
sweep again from bow to stern as you would for a normal screw roll.
You can continue alternating forward and backward sweeps and scull up.
I use an unfeathered paddle and the blade that is out of the water
rides close to the hull to keep the business end from diving during
the sweep.

I agree with your comments regarding hip snap.  If you have an effective
sweep and a hull that is not too fat, you can perform many sweeping rolls
without *ANY* hipsnap (in non-aerated water).

You may find that flat blades make learning new rolls easier.  The
more complicated the blade shape (i.e. spooned and cupped) the more likely
the paddle will dive or do strange things while sweeping and require
more skill to control.

Hope this helps!                                \   O
                                       \__________\/ )__________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg Stamer          Florida Sea Kayaking Association / Coconut Kayakers
stamer@fang.att.com 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~