HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu (George C. Harrison, Norfolk State University)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: GunslingersREFRESH
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:30:01 EDT
Distribution: world,local

In article <1992Dec13.143600.4111@arizona.edu>, frank@evax2.engr.arizona.edu (Frank Manning) writes:
> The following is submitted in honor of a certain well-known movie, which is
> being broadcast on TV tonight (13 Dec) in the US:
> 
...[stuff]
> "The general store only stocks Winchester Ada and Colt C," says Joe. "I know
> you've had your heart set on the Colt."
> 
...[great stuff]
> 
> -- Frank Manning                                   -- Std disclaimer
> -- College of Engineering and Mines                --
> -- Civil Engineering 100, University of Arizona    --
> -- Tucson, AZ  85721  frank@evax2.engr.arizona.edu --


As a witness to the bloody C++ vs. Ada wars, this is indeed a quality laugh!!!
 

How about a periodic update?


Thanks Frank

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| George C. Harrison            | PHONE : (804) 683-8654  | "Ada Spoken Here"|
| Professor of Computer Science | FAX   : (804) 683-9229  +------------------+
| Norfolk State University      | g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu |                  |
| 2401 Corprew Avenue           +-------------------------+                  |
| Norfolk VA 23504              | loop exit when RE_TIRED; end loop;         |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: ryer@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Mike Ryer)
Subject: Re: Lets split comp.lang.ada into multiple groups to confine flames
Organization: Intermetrics, Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:14:09 GMT

I would like the political/language-war discussions to be on another group
and have no objection to splitting comp.lang.ada into as many groups
as anyone wants, BUT ..

If the people who want to post about "C is better; No Ada's better; No, ..."
decide to cross-post to all n subgroups, then we're all worse off.  We'll
have to skip over the same submissions "n" times.

So, lets hear from the major contributors to the langage wars -- would
you agree to post only on the comp.lang.relative.merits (or whatever) group?

Mike "doesn't want to become an expert on trn Kill files" Ryer
Intermetrics


Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: srogers@teenwolf.mcc.com (Steve Rogers)
Subject: Re: C++ vs. Ada -- Is Ada loosing?
Organization: MCC, Austin, Texas
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:14:48 GMT

In article <16269@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes:

>Just recentrly, I posted an article to comp.lang.c in which I listed a
>number of errors in a textbook.  The textbook is about data structures
>in C.  The authors understand data structures very well. . . . .

    <deleted>

>I believe that Ada is a bigger language than C.  Both languages have "dark
>corners".  But there seems to be a tradition of Ada compilers being picky
>and C compilers letting it all hang out.  With all due respect to "The
>Emperor's New Clothes", which I loved when it came out, I am now _more_
>frightened about critical software being written in C or C++ than in Ada.
>
>My current impression is that Ada textbooks tend to be more accurate in
>the claims they make about what is or is not valid Ada, and tend to have
>a higher level view of the software process, than C books.  Is this an
>illusion, due to my knowing C relatively better than I know Ada?
>

I'm not sure this is true; the Barnes Ada book has LOTS of examples that
violate the LRM.  I think perhaps it's more of a way of teaching than
a symptom of the particular language.  In my CS education, many instructors
(and books) adopted a method of presenting a narrow version of the language
as though it were the whole truth, then expanding it in steps with each
new lesson; perhaps under the theory that this would make it easier to
grasp the wider concepts.  I found it tiring after a while.  It would
go something like (exaggerated)

1. Variables are letters A-Z.  Use like A = 1.
2. Yesterday we learned variables are letters, today we will see that
   variables can have numbers appended for extra clarity.  Like A1 = 1.
3. Today we see that variables can also have multiple letters and
   underscores for even more clarity: ADD_VALUE = 1
. . . . 

The frustrating thing is that they would never get around to specifying
the fundamental principle behind the concept.  Eventually you find
yourself saying: OK, OK, but what is a variable, *really*?  It
seems more natural, IMHO, to start with the broad statement, then explain
what it means with examples in various contexts; rather than assume an
inital narrow context, then try to expand to more general cases.

I would say that C instruction does this more than Ada instruction, but
by no means is it a C phenomena.  I don't know what the mistakes were
that you found, but the ones I have noticed in the Barnes book are
all due to simplification.  I attribute it to the idea (IMHO mistaken)
that a student can benefit from an example that illustrates an idea
in a very clear and simple way, but which is invalid in the full context
of the language.

-- 
| Steven Rogers  MCC/ESL  3500 West Balcones Drive
| Austin, Texas 78759-6509  (512) 338-3691 srogers@mcc.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: FORTRAN bug(was Re: C++ vs. Ada -- Is Ada loosing?)
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:57:33 GMT

In article <Bz9sHv.3B1@dale.cts.com> jhb@dale.cts.com (John Bollenbacher) writes:
>God, don't you people ever tire of this?
>
I do.

Mike
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Congressional Mandate Renewed in 92 - anyone have a cite?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:29:43 GMT

I believe that Congress renewed the Ada mandate in one of the Defense
bills passed just before they quit for elections. Does anyone happen to 
have a citation to the legislation, or the precise wording?

Thanks!

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans want the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: Why HOL?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:24:36 GMT

In article <5sqwVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> mshapiro@netlink.cts.com (Michael Shapiro) writes:
>Why is Ada called a "High Order Language" (HOL) instead of a
>"High Level Language" (HLL) like nearly every other language
>I've seen described?
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>"Because they thought they were inventing something new with Ada and
>didn't want to use anyone else's jargon."

Computer people are too cynical. This dichotomy of jargon has been around
as far back as I can remember, which is my junior year in college (1964).
I think it's as simple as the fact that government folks and the rest of
us didn't speak to each other all that much, and each community went its
own way. 

The government (not just DoD, if I recall), used to refer to ADP for
Automatic Data Processing, while the rest of the world referred to
EDP for Electronic Data Processing, and HOL where the rest of us
would say HLL. As an example, the original study group (1973, if I recall)
whose work resulted in Ada was called HOLWG for High-Order Language Working
Group. The use of HOL was simply standard terminology for DoD, and
had zero to do with the new language they ended up inventing. Fortran
and JOVIAL were (still are) also HOL's.

As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no reason for the dichotomy;
it's just two different dialects of American techno-speak.

My first trip to Boston was in 1961. We stopped at a diner and I 
ordered a milkshake. I got milk with chocolate syrup. What I wanted
was a nice thick thing with ice cream in it, which we Philadelphians
call a milkshake. In Boston that was called a frappe.

Why do the Brits call a windshield a windscreen? Why is Pepsi an
instance of the class "soda" in the East but "pop" in the West.

It's futile to look, after the fact, for rationales of things that are
just accidents.

After this diatribe, I promise to eat lots of crow if one of my DoD
friends writes back to explain that there really _was_ a reason :-)

Mike Feldman
From: alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Meridian phone number wanted
Date: 19 Dec 92 04:07:07 GMT
Distribution: comp.lang.ada
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

larry@peak.nmsu.edu (Evil Engineer doin' it the Cowboy Way) writes:
> I'm wanting a current phone number for Meridian. Can anyone help me?

(714) 727-0700
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
Alex Blakemore alex@cs.umd.edu   NeXT mail accepted
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: rcd@raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Re: Lets split comp.lang.ada into multiple groups to confine flames
Organization: eklektix - Boulder, Colorado
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 07:17:06 GMT

ryer@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Mike Ryer) writes:
>So, lets hear from the major contributors to the langage wars -- would
>you agree to post only on the comp.lang.relative.merits (or whatever) group?

Such a group would get old quickly (not to say that discussion has died out
in, e.g., talk.politics:-) and probably only a few real flamers would
bother with it.

One thing to consider is that the +/- Ada campaigns in the language wars
have a slightly different color:  We find some shred of reason to doubt
Ada's future, and toss it out.  It's like shouting "THEATER!" at a crowded
fire...everyone assumes his role and begins posturing as the flames rise.
This *does* give some of the "mine's bigger!"-"no way!" disputes that are
at the core of most language wars, but the difference with an Ada language
war is that it often starts with kindling doubt of whether Ada can make it
in the long run...and even the arguments that don't start there almost
always devolve to that.  It's a good way to get Ada folks away from their
work and into insecurely contemplating their collective navel (while the
other language partisans address the survival of their languages by
writing code with them;-).

Stated another way, I see a qualitative difference in that the challenges
to Ada are often not really "x vs y" but simply "not x".  Other languages
enter into the discussion as examples.  It's hard to siphon off discussions
like that in a "relative merits" discussion, because so much of it is
focused only on Ada, therefore arguably pertinent to Ada.  The whole
range--from the responses to Holden's occasional incendiary lob into the
group, to Aharonian's impassioned pleas for people to wake up and look
around--is dealt with introspectively.  What I'm pointing out here--the
self-doubt and extensive rationalizing (whether needed or not) of the Ada
community--has to be considered in how to get unproductive discussions out
of the way.
-- 
Dick Dunn    rcd@eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: jhb@dale.cts.com (John Bollenbacher)
Subject: Re: Language pitfalls (was Re: FORTRAN bug)
Organization: Titan Linkabit Corporation
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:59:01 GMT

Harry Koehnemann (koehnema@enuxha.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
: In article <EACHUS.92Dec15202249@oddjob.mitre.org> eachus@oddjob.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes:
: >In article <1992Dec15.203558.18211@inmet.camb.inmet.com> stt@spock.camb.inmet.com (Tucker Taft) writes:
: >
: >   Oh boy.  That is a nasty one.  This argues for a "friendly" 
: >   Ada compiler giving a warning about any use of "null;" other
: >   than the idiomatic ones like "when others => null;" or "begin null; end;"
: >   (especially in a function that returns an access type ;-).
: >
: >    Actually, there is an Ada rule which normally catches this, and
: >which Robert Dewar and I have argued should be removed in Ada 9X.  (A
: >function must contain a return statement RM 6.5(1).)  If it belongs on
: >the top ten list, then the rule should stay.
: 
: The "null;"/"return null;" was a problem with the base case in a
: recursive function (null is overloaded, and even worse it's an
: expression *and* a statement - isn't that something we hate about
: C :).  This implies there will be additional returns somewhere in
: the routine and it will not be caught by the compiler.  The real
: problem is that there exists an execution path that can lead out
: of the function without encountering a return.  

Seems to me the real problem is that there is a potential path out if the
function which does not raise an exception but has the 'wrong' value, e.g.
    if mumble = null then
      null;
    end if;
    ...
    return new mumble_ptr;
Thanks for pointing out this gotcha. I'd never seen it before.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- John Bollenbacher                                        jhb@dale.cts.com -
- Titan Linkabit Corp.                                       (619) 552-9963 -
- 3033 Science Park Rd.                                                     -
- San Diego, Ca. 92121                                                      -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: IBM & Air Traffic Control
Date: 12 Dec 92 18:40:43 GMT
Organization: The World

They used their STARS technology instead of their AD/CYCLE technology :-)

Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178
From: heard@public.BTR.COM (Charles M. Heard  heard@btr.com)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
Subject: Re: Compiler errors vs. runtime behavior
Date: 16 Dec 92 07:04:45 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. For info contact: info@BTR.COM

In article <1992Dec13.202938.4595@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
> [...] Would you rather debug at compile time or run time?

At compile time.

ANY day.

- heard
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: val@news.ccutah.edu (Val Kartchner)
Subject: Re: What a lame thread.
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 20:21:47 GMT

willson@seas.gwu.edu (Stephen R. Willson) writes:
: In article <1992Dec16.154129.28443@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
: >I AGREE! How about a group called: comp.lang.Ada.Argue or
: >comp.lang.Ada.Waste_of_time or comp.lang.Ada.get_back_to_work.
: >
: >If you are still compelled to post about Ada .vs. whatever, think twice, and
: >dont! 
: 
: How about comp.lang.religion.  Where everyone can preach the blessings if
: [insert favorite language].  

What about comp.lang.advocacy as I have proposed before?

--
|================== #include <disclaimer.h> ==================///=============|
| "AMIGA: The computer for the creative mind" (tm) Commodore /// Weber State  |
| "Macintosh: The computer for the rest of us"(tm) Apple \\\///   University  |
|== "I think, therefore I AMiga" -- val@csulx.weber.edu ==\///= Ogden UT USA =|
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: lam@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com (Josh Lam)
Subject: Novice Question on Record Representation
Organization: Honeywell Air Transport Systems Division
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 22:57:12 GMT

There is a type in another package I need to use in a record in my package.
Unfortunately, that type is private and I need to use record representation
for my record.

package Some_Package is

 type Some_Int is new integer;
 for Some_Int'size use 16;

 type Some_Type is private

 -- etc etc

 private

  type Some_Type is new integer;
  for Some_Type'size use 32;

end Some_Package;


with Some_Package;
package My_Package is

 type My_Rec (Choice: Boolean := True) is record
   case Choice is
     when True =>
       A : Some_Package.Some_Int;
       B : Some_Package.Some_Int;
       C : Some_Package.Some_Type;
     when False =>
       D : Some_Package.Some_Int;
   end case;
 end record;
   
 for My_Rec use record
    A      at 0 range 0..15;
    B      at 0 range 16..31;
    C      at 1 range 0..31;     -- of course there is an error here!
    Choice at 2 range 0..31;
    D      at 0 range 0..15;
 end record;

-- etc etc

end My_Package;


I know that I cannot do the above cos C is of Some_Package.Some_Type which
is a private type.

So, other than yelling at the person and getting him to change his type
to public, what are my alternatives given that I need to use record
representation. Please also let me know some pros and cons (if any) to any
alternative.

Thanks in advance!

-- 
Josh Lam
Honeywell Inc
lam@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: tne@world.std.com (Thomas N Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ada on massively parallel supercomputer
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:14:36 GMT

srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:

>    I remember reading that Alsys was developing an Ada compiler for the
>Transputer processor, and that there are a fair number of multiprocessing
>transputers around (check out the guys at the Naval Postgraduate School
>in Monterey, they seem to have an ongoing Transputer research effort,
>though I think they use Occam.).


From debie@alsys.fr Thu Dec 17 16:06:14 1992
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:52:04
From: Didier De Bie <debie@alsys.fr>
To: srctran@world.std.com
Cc: tne@world.std.com
Subject: comp.lang.ada

Dear Mr Aharonian,

Subject: More on parallel
In-Reply-to: Ada on massively parallel supercomputer

>    I remember reading that Alsys was developing an Ada compiler for the
>Transputer processor.

Yes, Alsys has a product that allows development of Ada applications for a
network of Transputers (T4 or T800). It includes a standard Alsys Ada
Environment (AdaWorld) for the Transputer, AdaProbe - our source level
debugger and source browser, and other host tools such AdaReformat and
AdaXref.

To address the specificities of application developments for parallel
computers, and in particular the Transputer, we have developed the AdaMap
product that allows to map an Ada application on a network of transputers,
assigning one or several tasks to each processor. The system break-down is
described to AdaMap in a simple and well designed language.

If you are interrested to know more, please contact

    Scott Dorman	
    Alsys
    67, South Bedford street
    Burlington, MA 01803-5152
    Tel: (617) 270 0030

Didier De Bie
Alsys
Deputy Vice President - International Marketing

-- 
Tom Erickson
Alsys
tne@world.std.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Collecting waiver stories - who can help?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:34:12 GMT

Anyone know of Ada-mandate waivers granted since the 1990 legislation? 
For what other languages? 

Anyone know specifically of waiver requests that were refused?

E-mail is better than posting. I will not put anything back on the
net unless specifically suthorized by the writer.

Thanks!

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"Americans want the fruits of patience -- and they want them now."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: FORTRAN bug(was Re: C++ vs. Ada -- Is Ada loosing?)
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:00:13 GMT

In <OBRY.92Dec11164203@cheesesteak.flash.bellcore.com> obry@flash.bellcore.com (Pascal Obry) writes:


>Fred,

>> Single character ones?  Probably not, but that just indicates that Ada
>> is incredibly more verbose than C.  One of the things I DISlike about
>> it, by the way.

>Why do you use english ?

Because it's what everyone else speaks?  If this is your defense of
Ada, it is a poor one.  If you want something that 'everybody can
read', you should be using COBOL.  It was designed with the idea in
mind that MANAGERS should be able to look at a program and tell what
it does without knowing the language. 

>( > @ - + / ~ $

>==============================
>Because I'am the only one to know this language I put below the dictionary :

>> this
>( try
>$ word
>+ it
>, -
>/ is
>@ language
>~ without
>==============================


>I like Ada because you can *read* it. And this seem to be one of the most
>important thing about a language. With goods choices for the identifier, you
>can read an Ada progam like a text, you don't have to translate what you read.

Golly gee whiz, you have to actually KNOW THE LANGUAGE to read it.
Horrors!  Oddly enough, I expect anyone reading a program and
expecting to understand it to be able to read the language.  If you
hand somebody a bunch of Ada code, they're going to be able to read
and understand it?  Gee, how is that going to work?  They're going to
know what pragmas do, things like packages and generics, etc.?  I
don't THINK so.

>You write a program one time, but how many time you read it ?

As many times as I need to?  Why is this a problem?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
From: mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman)
Subject: Re: Lets split comp.lang.ada into multiple groups to confine flames
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:27:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.084727.26313@sunbim.be> accs1@bagheera.mumath writes:
>In article 62879@mimsy.umd.edu, alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore) writes:
>>make comp.lang.ada obsolete and create a small set of groups instead.
>>
>>  some suggestions
>>
>>    comp.lang.advocacy   - for the flame wars
>>    comp.lang.programmer - for discussions of design/development Ada language issues
>>                           (or comp.lang.technical or better name?)
>>    comp.lang.announce   - moderated, low volume important announcements
>>                           of meetings, products, standards, new mandates :) etc
>>    comp.lang.misc       - catch all
>>
>>this works well in the NeXT groups which I've been reading lately
>>they have huge flame fests between Objective-C and C++ but confine
>>them to the advocacy group.
>>
>>anyone interested or familiar with how to do this?
Usenet has a balloting procedure, but I haven't the foggiest idea how it
works. No doubt there is a bewsgroup to post this to, but I don't know
that either...
>>
>
>I like the idea and the division as proposed sounds reasonable.
I will also vote yes when the ballot arrives. Long overdue!

Mike Feldman

Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada