HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Oct. 1 or Oct. 10, which is the more important day for China?
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:15:50 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Oct14.183607.25072@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, chou@cs.washington.edu (Pai Hsiang Chou) writes:
> 
> Under 50 years of Japanese rule, Taiwanese mothertongues
> survived.  Yet under less than 50 years of Chinese rule,
> Taiwanese mothertongues are dying.  Why?
> 

	** Because Chinese is better than Japanese.

> class, no taste.  People learn at least 6 years of English
> in school, and some people start learning their ABCs in kindergarten;
> yet there is still no official education in the mothertongues.

	** If you examine any public school in China, they all
	   use the official language: mandarine, in classroom.
	   In Taiwan, there is no difference. Anyone may practice
	   "mothertongue" outside the classroom. 

> This is effectively forcing Taiwanese into second or third class
> citizen status by imposing a linguistic and social handicap.
> Taiwanese have been imposed a false identity which denies who
> they really are.  Many grandchildren cannot communicate with
> their grandparents.  The result is a cultural vacuum.

	** In all provinces of China, they don't have this problem.
	   If the grandson can not communicate with grandparents,
	   it is the fault of parents, not the fault of the government.
                          
> Without one's mothertongue, one loses the cultural link to
> one's heritage.  Is Taiwanese heritage any less "proper"
> than Chinese heritage?  Prime Minister Hao says "I love
> Taiwan, yet I love China even more."  This is like saying
> "I love my wife, yet I love another woman even more."
> Is this not the attitude of a colonizer?

	** Your whole problem is trying to separate Taiwan from
	   China. You DON'T WANT Taiwan be a part of China. This
	   is a pure political stand and it has very little to
	   do with language.

	   With that prejudice, then you have all your problems.
	   Without that prejudice, there is simply no problem at all.
From: huang@mwilliams.eche.ualberta.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Bush or Clinton?
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:47:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

ding@eng.auburn.edu (Z. Ding) writes:
: In article <1992Oct15.075453.15857@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> huang@mwilliams.eche.ualberta.ca () writes:
: 
: >"The most idiotic" VP has been proven false before.  Besides, what's wrong
: >when the VP stressed the importance of family values?  And aren't those
: >values consistent with the Chinese traditions?  
: 
: See, there's nothing wrong with "talk about" family values. There is
: everything wrong with just "talk about" it. If B/Q wants strong family
: values, they should not only shoot their spits, but also invest in
: education, in research and development, in creating jobs. What good is the
: family value if there's no income, no education, no future? 

It is almost a chiche that money is not everything.  Just look at the
refuges from SE Asia.  Their kids succeed even though they have little
income.  Asian students have shown that the problem of American education
is social.  I think in the February issue of the Scientific American there
was a article on this very issue.

: If Bush really believes in family value, he should disavow Neil Bush for
: stealing money from banks. If Quayle really believes in family values, he
: should help children who are alive today, in the cities and suburbs, not
: just talking about helping unborn children, who, once born, is no longer
: his concern.
: 
: Z
:
If Neil Bush did steal money from the banks, he would be behind bars.
How much monetary help do you expect from a government in red ink? 
Saving unborn children hardly costs the government a dime.  And there
are long waiting lines for adoption.    
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: jkchan@lynx.cat.syr.edu (J. K. Chan)
Subject: Rent in San Fran
Organization: Syracuse University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 23:56:44 EDT


I am going to move to San Fran., CA in a month or so.  Could someone
tell me which area is comparatively safe and inexpensive to live over there?  
Especially in or near Hercules which is northeast to Richmond.
Any advice or suggestion is appreciated.
  
Please send email to the above address.
Thanks.
-Jim 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: 129.83.161.10 (H. Chao)
Subject: Re: 10. 1 or 10. 10, which is the more important day for China? None!
Organization: MITRE
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:36:57 GMT


Xref: sparky soc.culture.taiwan:14230 soc.culture.china:27469 soc.culture.hongkong:12257
From: gangzhou@koh-sun13.usc.edu (Gang Zhou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.hongkong
Subject: Re: Mainland stealing Benz from HK (was Re: TW News 7/10/92)
Date: 11 Oct 1992 10:17:39 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: koh-sun13.usc.edu

In article <9228516.17454@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> dht@cs.mu.OZ.AU (Joyous Dave baby) writes:
>elelyc@nuscc.nus.sg (Y.C. Liang) writes:
>
>>HONGKONG -- Thefts of luxury cars in Hongkong had risen to the highest
>
>are "helping" organized car stealing from HongKong - the place with
>the highest number of Mercedes Benz per Capital in the world.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Really? Did you ever visit Germany. I lived in Germany for seven years. I can
tell you that about 30% of the taxis in Germany are Mercedes.

The city with the highest number of Mercedes Benz per Capital in the world
may be Stuttgart, Germany, the HQ of Mercedes-Benz AG, where nearly
every worker of the Mercedes-Benz AG drives a Mercedes. They get a 20%
discount and may sell the car for the same prise a year later.

:-)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Oct. 1 or Oct. 10, which is the more important day for China?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 18:49:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.131550.3841@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:

>	** Because Chinese is better than Japanese.

Hmmm.  This is a racist statement if I have ever seen one...
From: jyu@sleepy.mti.sgi.com (James Yu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Oct. 1 or Oct. 10, which is the more important day for China?
Date: 15 Oct 1992 01:37:24 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sleepy.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct14.183607.25072@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
chou@cs.washington.edu (Pai Hsiang Chou) writes:
 
|> Without one's mothertongue, one loses the cultural link to
|> one's heritage.  Is Taiwanese heritage any less "proper"
|> than Chinese heritage?  Prime Minister Hao says "I love
|> Taiwan, yet I love China even more."  This is like saying
|> "I love my wife, yet I love another woman even more."
|> Is this not the attitude of a colonizer?

Well, I don't know the context of Prime Minister Hao's quote
as you've stated.  However, by just analyzing what was said
and the fact that Hao seems to be an advocate that Taiwan is
part of China (any political inferences aside), I would think
a more appropriate analogy is a Californian (or if you prefer,
a Washington state resident) saying that he/she loves the
state and that he/she loves the U.S. even more.

As such, I don't see anything paradoxical about the love for
one's state and one's country.  However, I think you've made
up your mind that somehow the two are mutually exclusive -
that one cannot be Taiwanese and at the same time be Chinese.
Again, this is ignoring anything political.  Otherwise, could
you imagine Hao inferring that he "loves" the CCP?  :-)

The upshot of all of this is not to dissuade you from believing
what you want to believe.  Rather, the point here is that your
rationalization (i.e. wife analogy) only makes sense if you
first start with the tenet that allegiance to Taiwan and
China (culturally speaking) are mutually exclusive - a rather
circular reasoning.

James Yu

DISCLAIMER: My employer has nothing to do with this posting.
From: ykhsu@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (yung-kao.hsu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Thoughts after Minister Wang requested for resignation
Date: 16 Oct 92 21:11:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct16.122653.3853@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>
>	** What Taiwan and US need now is not democracy. They need
>	   authority.

	No. As far as leaders are concerned, both need leaders that take
	responsibilities and provide leadership to change their political
	systems. 

>	   If Wang work for Old Chiang, the 2nd land reform will push
>	   Taiwan to a successful 21th century. Now, under democracy,
>	   Wang can only resign.

	Let's leave alone the question whether Old Chiang had
	created many problems, how are you going to ensure that
	you won't get a Mao instead of Chiang?

>	   I agree with YK Hsu. Bush or Clinton or whoever, will not
>	   make much difference to US. US need a Gorby.

	Unfortunately, I disagree with you. I sure hope your "authority"
	is not going to shoot me for disagreeing with you :-)

	What US needs is not a leader but reform of her political system;
	same with Taiwan.

Yung-Kao Hsu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: Republic of Taiwan Resolution passed
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:21:06 -0600
Distribution: world
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1b1t4jINNb7v@pollux.usc.edu>, cheng@pollux.usc.edu (Chien-Ming Cheng) writes:
> 
> Smart as you are, please list for us some of the newspapers that you
> think are creditable.
> 

	** If you ask me, I read the Central Daily News.

	   "Zoo2 Ren2 In3 Sui3, Len3 Nuan3 Zhe4 Zhe1" (like man
	    drink water, cold warm self know)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: sthuang@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Shen-Tzay Huang)
Subject: Answer to the Pratical Guide and Simple Test Carrying ROC passport.
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 16:47:14 GMT

Dear Netters :
	Hope you do enjoy the simple test. 

	Here is the answer.

	In case you find yourself flunked, don't be frustrated. In the meeting,
only 4 out of ~30 pre-Ph.Ds figured out 3 out of those 7 non-semi-institions, 
which is the highest score. Well, they are rewarded tickets to a dance 
performance. Maybe, you can reward yourself with similar things :-).

Regards
--Shen-Tzay Huang

(*** 	The following question and data was complied by Mr. Chih-Cheng Lo at
	UCLA, and handed out a a simple test in one of our study group 
	meeting.	*********)

Q :	From the following institions, please identify the "semi-official"
	agencies set up abroad by the R.O.C. government ?
	("semi-official" means at least capable of issuing 'legal' passports
	and visa for entering Taiwan.)

	(HINT : 7 out of 40 are NOT).

	Name					Where
	-----------------			--------------------
1.	Association of East Asian Relations	Japan
2.	Taipei Economic and Trade Office	Indonesia
3.	Trade Mission of teh Republic of China	Fiji
4.	Chung Hwa Travel Service		Hong Kong
5.	Taipei Economic and Cultural Center	Malaysia
6.	Oriental Trading Co.			*****
7.	The Far East Trade Office 		Bangkok
8.	Taipei Trade and Tourism Office		Macao
9.	Far East Trade and Cutural Center	Wenlai
10.	Far East Trade Center			New Zealand
11.	East Asia Trading Co. Ltd.		Austrilia
12.	Taiwan Trade Office			Cyprus
13.	Far East Commercial Office		Jordan
14.	Chiang Ching-Kuo Foundation		*****
15.	Far East Trade Service			Amman
16.	The Pacific Foundation for Cultural 
	and Education Exchange			*****
17.	Far East Service			*****
18.	Taipei Economica and Cultural Office	Turkey
19.	Free Chinese Center			England
20.	Taipei Trade and Cultural Office	Finland
21.	Centro Sun Yat-Sen			Spain
22.	Institute fur Chinesessche Kultur	Austria
23.	Taipei Trade Tourism & 
	Information Office			Sweden
24.	Taipe Trade Center			Norway
25.	Centre Dr. Sun Yat-Sen			Swizerland
26.	Coordination Council fr Noram American
	Affair					USA
27.	Oficina Commercial de Taiwan		Argentina
28.	Association pour la Promotion des
	Echanges Commerciaux et Touristiques
	avec Taiwan				France
29.	Center for Chinese Study		*****
30.	Majestic Trading Company Ltd.		England
31.	Asia Trade Center, Tourism Bureau	Germany
32.	Far East Trade Service, Inc.		Canada
33.	The General Chamber of Commerce
	of Chung-Hwa Inc.			Canada
34.	Association for Chinese Culture		*****
35.	Free China Information Service		Denmark
36.	Taipei Information Center		New Zealand
37.	Correspondal del Sinorama		Chile
38.	Free China Review			Hong Kong
39.	Free China News Syndicate		Austria
40.	Chinese Taipei Trade Service		*****	
	

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: ykhsu@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (yung-kao.hsu)
Subject: Re: [song/kanto] "campus folk"/"lerneja civilkanto"
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 12:30:20 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.091607.3811@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>In article <1992Oct9.130737.17820@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, ykhsu@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (yung-kao.hsu) writes:
>> 
>> 	What so "special" about the group of listeners other than they
>> 	like that type of music? Some Japanese like that, and nowaday,
>
>	** Of course all kinds of people listen to country music. But
>	   As the name suggested, it is originated and is firmly supported
>	   by "country" people. 

	Well, you may want to understand the music by listening to it
	rather than drawing conclusion by its name.

>	   Is the "campus music" still supported by students? I think 
>	   it may still be.

	The topic, as I understand, is that "campus folk song" isn't
	able to expand its appeal to general public except breifly
	in the past. Country music, no doubt, is able to.

>	   What do you mean by "no substances"? The style IS the substance. 

	Its substance is simple melody, simple lyrics, and simple
	music instrument. It's not that you can't make good music out
	of them but that you have little chances to continue doing it.
	No wonder, many of those songs are put into as children's songs
	that my kid listening to them when going to bed. So, you are right
	they do have their support :-)

Yung-Kao Hsu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Republic of Taiwan Resolution passed
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 20:26:46 GMT

In article <1b1t4jINNb7v@pollux.usc.edu> cheng@pollux.usc.edu (Chien-Ming Cheng) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.113326.3795@vax.muskingum.edu> ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>>In article <1avf8jINN836@pollux.usc.edu>, mcyang@pollux.usc.edu (Bien-Chao Iunn) writes:
>>> I read a report on last week's Independent Weekly News.  It mentioned
>>> that the city council of Tainan just passed a resolution which
>>> urges the central government to join the United Nations using the 
>>> name "Republic of Taiwan".
>>
>>	** You read the wrong newspaper. Just like what you think
>>	   about KMT's paper is, The IWN reports are SERIOUSLY biased
>>	   and should not be trusted.
>
>
>Dear Mr. Law:
>
>Could you enlighten us what are the "right" newspapers we should read?
>
>Liberty Times also reported the same piece of news several days ago.
>Should we also regard it as a "WRONG" newspaper ?
>If this is the case, then whichever newspaper reports that piece of
>news should be disregarded.
>
>Smart as you are, please list for us some of the newspapers that you
>think are creditable.
>

KMT and CCP will have sustantive discussion soon. They had "ministry" level
contact on the discussion matter.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: sthuang@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Shen-Tzay Huang)
Subject: A Practical Guide and A Simple Test When Travelling by ROC passports.
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 20:47:34 GMT

Dear netters :
	As most of us carrying ROC passport for travelling abroad, it is 
helpful to know where to contact or which entry on telephone books to check, 
if unluckily, our passports were lost or stolen, or by any chance of luck, 
you come accross with some billionairs who like to do business with Taiwan.

	Well, here is a sublist for your convience. For a little bit fun during 
a break of your hard work and a test for your knowledge, let's do it as a 
simple test, where I'll post the answer two days later.  

	It is of extraordinary fun indeed, try it and share with your friends.

Best Regards
--Shen-Tzay Huang

(***	Well, obviously we don't have that for S. Korea yet in our list. ****)
	
(*** 	The following question and data was complied by Mr. Chih-Cheng Lo at
	UCLA (lots thanks to him), and handed out a a simple test in one of 
	our study group meeting.	****)
(***	Typos are all my responsibilty	****)

Q :	From the following institions, please identify the "semi-official"
	agencies set up abroad by the R.O.C. government ?
	("semi-official" means at least capable of issuing 'legal' passports
	and visa for entering Taiwan.)

	(HINT : 7 out of 40 are NOT).

	Name					Where
	-----------------			--------------------
1.	Association of East Asian Relations	
2.	Taipei Economic and Trade Office	
3.	Trade Mission of teh Republic of China
4.	Chung Hwa Travel Service	
5.	Taipeo Economic and Cultural Center	
6.	Oriental Trading Co.		
7.	The Far East Trade Office 
8.	Taipei Trade and Tourism Office		
9.	Far East Trade and Cutural Center
10.	Far East Trade Center		
11.	East Asia Trading Co. Ltd.
12.	Taiwan Trade Office	
13.	Far East Commercial Office		
14.	Chiang Ching-Kuo Foundation	
15.	Far East Trade Service	
16.	The Pacific Foundation for Cultural 
	and Education Exchange
17.	Far East Service
18.	Taipei Economica and Cultural Office	
19.	Free Chinese Center		
20.	Taipei Trade and Cultural Office	
21.	Centro Sun Yat-Sen		
22.	Institute fur Chinesessche Kultur	
23.	Taipei Trade Tourism & 
	Information Office		
24.	Taipe Trade Center		
25.	Centre Dr. Sun Yat-Sen			
26.	Coordination Council fr Noram American
	Affair					
27.	Oficina Commercial de Taiwan	
28.	Association pour la Promotion des
	Echanges Commerciaux et Touristiques
	avec Taiwan				
29.	Center for Chinese Study	
30.	Majestic Trading Company Ltd.		
31.	Asia Trade Center, Tourism Bureau
32.	Far East Trade Service, Inc.	
33.	The General Chamber of Commerce
	of Chung-Hwa Inc.			
34.	Association for Chinese Culture	
35.	Free China Information Service		
36.	Taipei Information Center	
37.	Correspondal del Sinorama
38.	Free China Review			
39.	Free China News Syndicate		
40.	Chinese Taipei Trade Service
From: yu@chang.asd.sgi.com (Yu Chang)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: How to give birth to a son?
Keywords: How to give birth to a son?
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:18:21 GMT
Reply-To: yu@chang.asd.sgi.com (Yu Chang)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA

In article <2329@cix.cict.fr>, wu@uranus.cerfacs.fr (Wangnan Wu) writes:
|> Hi,
|> I'm just thirty-two years old and I had five daughters. I am
|> eager for method to give birth to a son! Do you know any method?

I assume this was not a prank played by someone else on your un-logout system
or a joke played by yourself.

My advide is "do not do anything" and this is from a father of two sons.
Almost all my friends from china and taiwan have sons
instead of daughters. None of them did it by purpose.
Imagine 10-15 years later, the competition among these boys to get
one of your daughters.

Seriously, there are male-female balance problems in all chinese societies
already. Take advantage of it and do not make it worse.

|> I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
|> 
|> Wangnan WU
From: ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: How to give birth to a son?
Date: 12 Oct 92 09:28:55 -0600
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Oct9.172426.7241@oakhill.sps.mot.com>, who@austlcm.sps.mot.com  writes:
>>
>>	   Rate of success: 100% (2/2) 
> 
>    Question: Have you only done it twice? 
> 

	** No, I only did once.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: shl1@crux2.cit.cornell.edu (Steven Lee)
Subject: Re: How to give birth to a son?
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:03:17 GMT

ericlaw@vax.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:

>	** Yes, they SHOULD. Otherwise, you can not tell a man
>	   from a woman. 

>	** I cook (and cook better), I saw, I clean house, I babysit
>	   etc. etc. However, I am doing it like a man not like a 
>	   woman.

Hey!  An old Chinese proverb says:  "Real gentlemen stay away from the     
kitchen."  How COULD you forget that??  I guess you are not a REAL man, either,
huh?  <sarcasm>  :-b

>	** The difference between a man and a woman should be one of
>	   the biggest mystery of the world. They are different, however
>	   the difference are mixed, tangled and are not easy to tell.
>	   Fortunately, we don't have to know the difference to be
>	   different. Like you said (and I said too): man and woman are
>	   born different.

"Fortunately, we don't have to know the difference to be different"????
What kind of logic is that?  To disprove something, at least ONE counter-
example must be given.  If you have taken any elementary course in logic, you
should know this very well.

So now, I state:
"Men and women, despite some physical differences, have the same needs and 
should be treated equally in the society."

Now disprove what I have just said!

                                                          --Steven Lee
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: huang@mwilliams.eche.ualberta.ca ()
Subject: Re: Bush or Clinton?
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:21:59 GMT

ychen@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (Yung-Chin Chen) writes:
: In article <1992Oct13.015325.20291@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> huang@mwilliams.eche.ualberta.ca () writes:
: 
: >   How about Walter Mondale?  Dan Quayle's approval rating has been consistently
: >   higher than Carter's VP.  For more info, read "The Man Who Would be the 
: >   President," by Bob Woodward and David Broder, published this year.  They are
: >   reporters from The Washington Post.  Most idiotic?  Based on what?  Media like
: >   to take his quotes out of context.  Everyone can be made a fool out of that.
: 
: Just take a look how American friends thought think Dan Quayle:
: 
: 1) read rec.humor everyday to see how many jokes for Dan. I believe he
:    has more than Bush and Clinton.
: 2) there is a PC video game, a spelling game, with Dan's name on the title.
: 3) When Bush fainted in Japan, see how media and American people reacted
:    when it was possile that Dan had a chance to take over the White House.
: 4) Dan believed that there are canals in Mar and there must be Mars.
:    (read from Newsweek)
: 5) Numerous spelling errors and fantastic ideas from Dan......
: 
: ps. IMHO, idiot is not the right word to describe him.

1. There is nothing to be ashamed of when a decent family man speaks to an
issue with candor.  
2. Harry Truman was an even worse speller.
3. Their nervousness was caused by their own ignorance about Dan Quayle's 
ability.
4. You cannot trust everything TV or the Newsweek wants you to believe.
5. Refer to 2.) 

Here is a quote taken from The New York Times: "If you're sick and tired 
of the way it's been going, if you want the American people in control again,
if you believe your country is still the greatest country in the world,
if you think we can compete and win again, if you'r tired of being 
heartbroken when you go home at night and you want a spring in your
step and a song in your heart, you give Al Gore and I a chance to
bring America back."  (A1, July 24, 1992) 
 
Grammar should be taken just as seriously as spelling.