HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: frazier@maxwell (Greg Frazier)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Young earth creationist logic NOT!
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:21:18 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun) writes:
: In article <zs9msg+.alc@netcom.com> stassen@alc.com writes:
: 
: >[..about dating trees by tree rings...]
: 
: Suppose you had a garden. One day you look out of the window and see
: a tree in the middle of if where previously there had been none. Now
: a friend comes to visit you for the first time and looks at the tree.
: He counts the rings and says its been there for 100 years. You say 
: its been there for 1 day. Which of you is correct?

Suppose he sees more than just tree rings.  How about, as the
original poster suggested, he finds evidence of parasite
damage.  Further, he cuts down some of your other trees and
the two of you see that the tree rings correlate in terms of
good growth/bad growth years.  What are you to conclude about
the prankster that stuck this tree in your garden?
 
: Hint: It depends on your assumptions.

Not really.

: Advice: Don't make too many assumptions about the origin of the
:         universe and of species.

Do you want us to limit our assumptions (good advice), or are
you asking us to turn our brains off?  There is TONS of evidence
that the Earth is old.  Now, either the Earth is old, or it is
young and some yuckster inserted misleading and internally
consistant evidence that it is.  Mind you, depending on your
slant on Job, the latter option becomes a possibility, but it
sounds like a pretty silly working assumption to me.

--


Greg Frazier	frazier@CS.UCLA.EDU	!{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Re: JW discourage education (was Re: dawkins/_the selfish gene_)
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:49:26 GMT

In article <6598@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher) writes:
>
>In reply to a comment by Steve Link, this should clarify Jehovah's
>Witnesses believe about attending college, gleaned from personal
>experience.
>
>JW's believe there is nothing inherently wrong with attending
>college, but feel it is unwise for the following reasons:
>
>1.  Exposure to bad moral influences.
>2.  Exposure to ideas that contradict the Bible.

OOOOH!  Horrid!  Evolution!  Atheism!!  Historicity of Bible!!

>3.  Exposure to ideas that contradict the Watchtower Society.

Even MORE horrid!

>4.  Waste of time, given world will soon end.

Wasn't the world going to end in 1914, 1925, 1975, 1932, 1940?

>5.  Likelihood person will learn to think for self.

How could anyone do that?  After all, the Watchtower should do
all the thinking for you.

>
>The Watchtower Society's experience is that it loses a large portion
>of young people who go to college.
>
>Alan Feuerbacher
>Tektronix, Inc.
>Beaverton, OR

I wonder why that is....is it because they begin to see the evidence
for evolution?  Is it because they begin to study the history of
religion, particularly the JW's, and read a book like _Crisis of
Conscience_, and find out the JW's aren't all they're cracked up
to be?

-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
From: 32WENPW@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: ICR, Scharle, Dobson
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:36:48 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University

About the ICR (Institute for Creation Research), has it retracted its claims on
 the Paluxy footprints?
   An excellent letter to "Creationists" was written by Scharle and posted on t
his BB last Sunday on "Questions to Creationists".  It seemed very fair and
aware of the subtleties in the various oppositions to "Creation Science".  I wo
uld be interested in any responses to that article and I congratulate Tom Schar
le on quietly asking some good questions that deserve answers.
   I also heard the Gish v. Ross debate over the last two days and compliment D
r. James Dobson for his attempts to let both sides speak.  I have asked various
 Christian friends in the sciences their opinions on the age of the Universe, e
tc., over the past 17 years and most of them (astro-physicists, geologists, etc
.) said they believed the universe was created billions of years ago.  In gener
al the reactions to the "science" of the ICR was to allow the ICR to speak its
mind and to "be open to the opinions of other Christians" and to assume that go
od science would win out.  (I certainly believed that.)
   But I don't think that has happened.  I think the ICR has pitched much of it
s message to the common churchfolk who, like most Americans, don't have a deep
knowledge of science and the result has been that the ICR message is unfortunat
ely identified with Christianity.  Dobson, a Christian pediatrician, is somewha
t unique among Christian speakers in that he recognizes there is another side!
     Well, occasionally there is some light (Scharle, Ross, Dobson) in all this
 heat!
                              ken

(ken w. smith, math dept., central michigan univ, mt. pleasant, mi 48859)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: robd@cherry09 (Robert Derrick)
Subject: Re: dawkins/_the selfish
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: talk
Date: 21 Aug 92 11:35:24 CDT

"herb sutter" (herb.sutter@canrem.com) wrote:
: robd@cherry09 (Robert Derrick) writes:
: 
: (BTW, I give up... what's a TAE, besides a TLA?  :-)

First of all, TAE is a term that I coined and now use.  It means
Theistic Anti-Evolutionist.  I avoid the use of the term
Creation Scientist because it is not descriptive of the people
who make the claim to be CS's.  I read the book, "What Is Creation
Science", and when I was done, I still did not know anything
about Creation Science.  I knew that nearly every Evolution
scientist had something negative to say about Evolution, as
the book is a major talking head review.  I knew that WICS
had numerous not to mention sundry reasons why Evolution was
impossible.  I knew that, according to WICS, Evolution not
only included the modification of life, but also abiogenesis,
not to mention the Evolution of stars and galaxies.  I knew
that, according to WICS, that Evolutionary theory is responsible
for every evil on the planet.  And I also learned that Taoism
was an esoteric evolutionary system, and an atheistic system --
something that I, as a Taoist, was most suprised to learn.
I then read the JW "Life..." book and found it to be even
more lacking in scientific content.

But I learned not one thing about Creation Science.  I therefore
came to the conclusion that it does not exist, and that the
term itself was oxymoronic.  However, WICS is clearly Theistic
Anti-Evolution, and I believe that until the ICR, or the CRS,
or the WTBTS, or the beleagured Jim Loucks who had to start
from scratch, or the Lionel Tun (the Fundementalist Fortune
program) produce some Creation Science, it is undue support
of their credentials to label what they are doing as
science.

rob derrick
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolution is false
Date: 15 Aug 92 21:20:00 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <emc.713897842@keiko>, emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes...
>How about:
>Step B> The Bible is the true Word of God
>Step C> Therefore creationism is true.
> 
>Just playing the devil's advocate you understand.
>The point is not that proof is the most important item to the
>creationist world view.  It is an added extra to 
>be benefited from but not absolutely necessary.  First premise
>is that the Bible is true -- all else follows.  You can
>never disprove an axiom.

Sure you can, if your axioms are inconsistent or contradictory.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
From: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Science and God
Keywords: Science, God
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:27:10 GMT
Organization: City University, London

julian@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock) writes:
>So I guess I am saying that if I do not invoke God to move stars
>and bind electrons together in atoms then why should I use Him
>to describe the evolution of the physical universe from the Big Bang
>and to create life? But if I do believe that God is in control
>(somehow) then it is matter of understanding His interaction with
>the world not giving supernatural causes for physical effects
>(Miracles apart, of course...)

There is one way of looking at the physical universe which is
that everything including stars, atoms, electrons and binding
forces is continuously sustained by Jesus in real time.
I can't find the biblical reference so maybe someone can help
out here. Considering that God is a spiritual being, and that
he created the universe just to accomodate us, I don't see
why He should not be responsible for making it all hang
together as it goes along. Just one possible way of looking
at it btw.


--
Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
From: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com (Steven J. Edwards)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: JW discourage education for several good reasons!
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:27:44 GMT
Reply-To: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA

In article <6598@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher) writes:
> In reply to a comment by Steve Link, this should clarify Jehovah's
> Witnesses believe about attending college, gleaned from personal
> experience.
>
> JW's believe there is nothing inherently wrong with attending
> college, but feel it is unwise for the following reasons:
>
> 1.  Exposure to bad moral influences.
> 2.  Exposure to ideas that contradict the Bible.
> 3.  Exposure to ideas that contradict the Watchtower Society.
> 4.  Waste of time, given world will soon end.
> 5.  Likelihood person will learn to think for self.
>
> The Watchtower Society's experience is that it loses a large portion
> of young people who go to college.

I have no doubt that the evils of the Internet will soon be explicitly
mentioned in WTBTS literature as another reason to avoid higher
education.  It is not clear which of the two topics will receive the
greatest condemnation: exposes of scholarly dishonesty in its
creationist publications or exposes of its secret history and
activities.

As most colleges require at least one year of natural science, it is
no surprise that creationist groups have considerable fear of what
enlightenment will do to their members.  The JWs are not alone on this
point, but their demographics must make them anxious.  The greatest
number of new JWs are children of existing JWs, and it is not seen as
being terribly productive to spend eighteen years of indoctrination
effort to have it all disappear in a semester or two.  Furthermore, a
healthy young adult has a potential five decades or so of selling (er,
"distributing") WTBTS literature, not to mention the possibility of
producing even more sales agents (er, "ministers") biologically.

"It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic."

 [The above opinions expressed are my own; not necessarily held by others.]
      == Steven J. Edwards           Bull HN Information Systems Inc. ==
      == (508) 294-3484              300 Concord Road         MS 820A ==
      == sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com     Billerica, MA 01821          USA ==
"That Government which Governs the Least, Governs Best." -- Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: Re: JW discourage education (was Re: dawkins/_the selfish gene_)
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:40:19 GMT

In article <36947@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> slinke@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Steven Linke) writes:
>In article <omv7ocs@fido.asd.sgi.com> cj@sgi.com writes:
>>
>>My degree is also in mathematics.  I found Sutter's posturing
>>to be utterly laughable.  Does he expect to awe his readers with
>>his stunning education?  That might work in his JW congregation,
>>where most people aren't likely to have math degrees, and would
>>be easily cowed.  It probably won't work here, where his audience
>>is likely to be expert.
>
>If I'm not mistaken, the Jehovah's Witnesses discourage their
>members from attending college for some sort of religious reason
>(interpretation of some Bible verse, It think).
>
>
Well, I can add some stuff here....as a former Jehovah's Witness,
YES, college and higher education are GENERALLY looked down upon.

I give these qualifiers because my parents let me go to a community
college to take classes in electronics.  However, the minute my
teacher started talking about evolution, and I told my father,
he freaked out, mad that they were teaching evolution in an 
electronics class, etc, etc, etc.  He even went so far as to
call that teacher "the Devil".

I hate to put down my father...but such is the typical reaction
of JW's to anything having to do with evolution, philosophy,
humanism, etc.  The scriptural support they use has to do with
some obscure scriptures talking about not being fooled by
"the philosophies of men" and other scriptures dealing with
things like "God hid the truth from the intellectuals".  While
never condemning college outright, it is never encouraged.
Instead, the JW youths are encouraged to devote their time
after they graduate from high school in service to Jehovah
(their name for God).  Thoughts of pursuing a career in 
"this old system of things" are strongly discouraged, because
they believe (and have believed) in a coming end of the world.

Another factor that they associate with college is "immorality".
They can't stand the thought of their young Johnny "fornicating"
or being influenced by atheistic, homosexual, intellectual
people.  You see where all of this leads....a kind of      
anti-intellectualism.

I feel so sorry for the JW's.  They must REALLY look stupid now
on the Usenet.  Oh well.

>
>
>
>-- 
>Steve Linke
>Salk Institute (Gene Expression Lab)
>La Jolla, CA


-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: behavior and evolution
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:51:11 GMT

In article <julian.714003960@sfu.ca>, julian@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Shillcock) writes:
>maoh@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu (Maureen O'Halloran) writes:
>>We also can't solve any problem analytically (ie, write down an exact
>>equation that is the solution) for more than two particles!  You may
>>have heard some one say that the "three-body problem" has not been
>>solved.  However given a big enough computer and enough time, we can
>>solve problems numerically to arbitrary accuracy.
>
>Not if it is in a chaotic part of its phase space we can't. Any initial 
>error wil be exponentially magnified until we lose all accuracy. 

That's not the whole reason.  You need QM too.  In Newtonian mechanics, we
*can* solve problems numerically to arbitrary accuracy, that is, if you tell me
"Compute the solution of this three-body problem for t = 1000 years from now
with an accuracy of epsilon", I say "OK, but I need the initial conditions
with an accuracy of delta = epsilon^1.000.000 (or whatever) and a computer that
can handle it."  Of course the computer is a limiting factor.

-- 
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you NEVER flame anybody.
Newsgroups: aus.ai
From: irc@YP.melb.bull.com (Ian Checkley)
Subject: Bull Knowledge Engineering Centre
Keywords: AI, KEC, Charme
Reply-To: irc@melb.bull.oz.au
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Australia.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 05:13:36 GMT

Bull HN Information Systems has recently established a Knowledge
Engineering Centre (KEC) in Australia as part of its Melbourne
Software Development group.

The KEC has been formed with the objective of introducing and
supporting the Groupe Bull (parent company) AI products in order to
implement solutions to clients business problems. Bull has been active
for many years in AI research and has been very successful in
converting research prototypes into industrial strength real world
products. A premier example of a research prototype that has evolved
into a real world tool is the CHARME Constraint Programming Language; -
the original prototype was developed in Munich at the European Computer 
Research Centre and then re-developed by Bull as a tool to solve constraint
based problems in business (e.g. resource scheduling, planning, 
optimization, etc.).


As part of its activities the KEC is publishing a periodic bulletin
-'KEC-news'.  It is available free of charge, either by post or 
email (Postscript format).


To subscribe to 'KEC-news' send email to

               'kec-news-subscribe@melb.bull.oz.au' or

contact me direct either by phone or fax.


BFN ian C.

--
Ian Checkley              --- Internet: irc@melb.bull.oz.au
Bull Information Systems  --- ACSnet:   irc@melb.bull.oz
677 Victoria Street       --- UUCP: ...[!uunet!]melb.bull.oz.au!irc
Abbotsford AUSTRALIA 3067 --- Phone: +61 3 246 4939     FAX: +61 3 246 4445
Newsgroups: aus.ai
From: weberk@marvin.cs.curtin.edu.au (Keven Weber)
Subject: Seeking info on ML in regard to acceleration control
Keywords: control, machine learning, learning
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:49:55 GMT


G'day

Can anyone send me any information (eg. references) on machine learning
in regard to acceleration control for mobile systems (in my case this is
in terms of discrete power levels).

Thanks.

K. Weber

--
Email: weberk@cs.curtin.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.ai
From: sivand@eng.auburn.edu (Sivand Lakmazaheri)
Subject: RESEARCH ASSISTANT NEEDED
Reply-To: sivand@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:50:54 GMT



                 Research Assistantship Available



Research assistantship is available in the area of computer-aided engineering.
The research involves automating 2D and 3D detailed drawings of structural
systems via the knowledge-based approach.  Knowledge of databases, knowledge-
based systems, and computer-aided design & drafting is necessary.  Working
knowledge of C programming is a must. Knowledge of structural engineering is
helpful but is not necessary. The student is expected to pursue graduate studies
in the area of computer-aided engineering leading to MS or PhD in civil
engineering or a related engineering discipline. The assistantship is available beginning January 1993. To apply send your resume and a copy of your transcript
to:


sivand@eng.auburn.edu

Or

Professor Sivand Lakmazaheri
Civil Engineering Department
238 Harbert Engineering Center
Auburn University, Alabama 36849
USA
From: rwatts@dstos3.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.radio
Subject: Radio Microphone Frequencies anyone ?
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:20:45 GMT
Organization: Defence Science and Technology Organisation

Can anyone supply me with ALL the frequency ranges that are allocated in
Australia specifically for use by radio microphone devices.  I know a number of
frequencies at both ends of the VHF portion of the spectrum, but the actual
extremities of the various allocations would be greatly appreciated.

I have of course assumed that they are separately allocated.  If not, are they
"lumped" in some other category of low powered transmitters ?  We are
particularly interested in any UHF frequencies allocated for this purpose. Some
of the equipment - eg broadcast standard - is fairly specialised stuff.

BTW, this information is for a friend.  Really !  I must admit though that my
curiosity has been aroused since being asked if I knew the answer.

Thanks for any help.

Richard.
--
Richard Watts
Systems Management Group                     E-mail: rwatts@dstos3.dsto.gov.au
Corporate Information Systems Unit            Phone: +61 8 259 6394
DSTO Salisbury, SA 5108                         Fax: +61 8 259 5177
Newsgroups: aus.radio,aus.radio.packet
From: dave@ips.oz.au (Dave Horsfall)
Subject: Re: WICEN again
Organization: IPS Radio and Space Services.  Sydney, Australia.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 09:50:20 GMT

And as a followup to my own followup...

We want technical people in WICEN, and we want them NOW.  Aspersions have
been cast on "Sydney WICEN", and I want to show them that not only is there
a "Sydney WICEN" (a term I use with some affection), it consists of a group
of technically-inclined people, providing advice & skills to the rest of
the organisation.

Who'll join me?

Here's a scenario - turn up at your control point, with a lap-top & TNC
(or get issued with one).  Switch on, identify yourself & location etc,
select message template (or request one via UDP broadcast).  Net Control
may also assign a checkpoint ID as well.  Be presented with a standard
WICEN message form on the screen, fill in the blanks, and hit ENTER...

Any fool can use a microphone - let's make it just as easy to use packet!

Who's interested?

-- 
Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU)         VK2KFU @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC
dave@ips.OZ.AU                  ...munnari!ips.OZ.AU!dave
Newsgroups: aus.radio
From: dave@ips.oz.au (Dave Horsfall)
Subject: Re: WICEN again
Organization: IPS Radio and Space Services.  Sydney, Australia.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 01:04:08 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.105142.23163@runx.oz.au>
    ycomputr@runx.oz.au (Mark Cheeseman) writes:

>Now for a general question - what's WICEN like?

Loads of fun, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it - I've been in it for years.

>                                                I'd considered joining for
>some time, but not having much in the way of portable/mobile gear at the 
>moment, I couldn't see much point.

It's not necessary to have any sort of gear, as long as you can pass messages.
Equipment can be loaned to you (I think nothing of lending say a hand-held
to a fellow WICEN op), or you can be plonked down in front of a base station,
or a field telephone, etc etc...

>                                   Probably the only chance most amateurs
>get to put something back into the society which continues to give us valuable
>spectrum space.

You took the words right out of my mouth...

-- 
Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU)         VK2KFU @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC
dave@ips.OZ.AU                  ...munnari!ips.OZ.AU!dave
Newsgroups: aus.radio
From: ycomputr@runx.oz.au (Mark Cheeseman)
Subject: WICEN again
Organization: Your Computer Magazine, Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 10:51:42 GMT

Thanks Dave and Richard for the info re City to Surf SNAFU. (sorry for not
quoting, but your atricles have gone and quietly expired on me!).

Now for a general question - what's WICEN like? I'd considered joining for
some time, but not having much in the way of portable/mobile gear at the 
moment, I couldn't see much point. Probably the only chance most amateurs
get to put something back into the society which continues to give us valuable
spectrum space.

-Mark


-- 
Mark Cheeseman, Your Computer. ycomputr@runx.oz.au  
packet: vk2xgk@vk2op.nsw.aus.oc     [This space intentionally blank] 
Phn: +61 2 693 4143  Fax: +61 2 693 9720  Fido: 3:712/505.15@fidonet.org
Newsgroups: aus.radio