From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexy clothing encourage rape?
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:04:00 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences

In article <cemandq00XsFM6N0YK@andrew.cmu.edu> David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU> writes:
>farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>This whole discussion seems silly to me.  Any clothing can be sexy to
>>someone.  For example, those spandex shorts bikers wear.  Now, I
>>happen to find them incredibly sexy, and tend to ogle bikers at
>>traffic lights.  Should a biker (wearing shorts that are for biking)
>>be required to worry about my libido as s/he is biking?
>
>No, and the "she was dressed provocatively" excuse does not (and
>should not) hold in court.
>
>I would like to add something, however.  While one (mainly women, 
>though by no means should men ignore this) can wear anything they
>wish (within the law, of course :), there should be an awareness of
>the effect of certain types of clothing.
>
>To use your biker wearing spandex example:  No, they shouldn't
>fear wearing such clothing.  On the other hand, they _should_ be 
>aware that such clothing _is_ revealing and therefore they may be
>ogled.
>
>The same goes for a tight mini, fishnet stockings, a halter top, and
>stiletto heeled shoes.  If a woman wants to wear such clothing, then
>by all means do so.  Yet she should be aware that most men (myself
>included) find such apparel very..."stimulating" (ahem :) and that
>they will be looked at.  Just as, when I wear workout clothes which
>include fairly tight shorts, I expect that women _may_ look at me.
>
>I personally don't mind if women look at me (I'm flattered, actually).
>And IMHO women shouldn't mind if men look at them, especially if
>they dress in a manner that they _know_ will attract attention.


I agree with you that people shouldn't mind if people look at them when they
are dressed in a manner that is generally accepted by society as "something to
look at".
However, I have friends that have maintained that in the statement:

>But dress does not mean an invitation for anything, and males and
>females should not interpret it as such...

ANYTHING (my caps) should include ogling and staring.

I know you only meant it as some sort of physical approach, but there are those
who think ogling is offensive; these ARE your words; and this IS a valid
parsing of the statement.  Guess my point is that even a statement like this is
open to interpretation.

In my experience, this complaint was voiced more often when the "guilty" was:

A.  Not found mutually attractive.
B.  Stared "too much" [difficult to evaluate, but I'm sure we've all seen it.]
C.  aware that the one being stared at was "off limits" (eg, married)


There are also the cases where it wasn't the clothing, it was the person.  eg,
a really "pretty" woman dressed in "normal" clothes will still get stared at.
[Goes for men, too, of course;  seen less often by me, but I don't wanna argue]

I know several women who tire of this after the billionth man drools.

Actually, I knew one guy who was kinda shy and got more attention than he
wanted.  Oh well, call me sexist.

On further reflection, the friends who maintain that ogling is out of line are
the ones who get ogled no matter what they wear.  MAYBE that is the source
of the trouble.  Oh well, I'm willing to bet that there is somebody who is
offended by ogling and mostly only gets in when dressed up.
-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:1957 soc.women:17331