From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:37:35 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Jul22.011218.612@csl.sri.com> pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless) writes:
>From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
>Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
>> 	Eh?  Who said that about dragons?  I've heard the line about
>> dragons representing greed, especially in Beowulf, but not this
>> "manipulated mass" ...
>> 	Speaking as a Folklore & Mythology major (Medieval Scandinavian &
>> Celtic) I feel pretty confident in saying that dragons/serpents in
>> Indo-European (and usually Semitic) mythos represent Primal Chaos and that
>> sort of thing which is smitten by a Hero figure (Thor, Indra, Yahweh, etc.)
>> to bring about the ordering of the universe as we know it.  St. George and
>> Sigurd are reflections of this in legend (as opposed to myth).
>
>There are also darker manifestations of the serpent, such as the Nordic
>Midgard Serpent, the Judeo-Christian Serpent/Devil, etc. They are usually
>a darker mirror of the same properties: power, energy and ingenuity (albeit
>chaotic and destructive energy and thought).

	I'd be interested to know if the Genisis serpent is thematically
related to Leviathan (who is smited down by Yahweh or his equivalent in 
Judaic and a few other Canaanite religions).  The Genesis serpent seems
like a very different concept - he's kinda small and wimpy compared to
Leviathin the Cosmic Serpent (now playing at a theatre near you).  No hero
comes and smites him to create order from chaos.  I suppose if you count
knowledge in as a Primal Chaos thing, then there is a relation, but
otherwise the Genesis serpent and Leviathan are just two serpents otherwise
unconnected.
	This is just my conjecture.  I really don't have a very good handle
on ancient Semitic stuff, so if anyone with clue can add to or correct
this, that would be great.  BTW, IHMO Judaism as some really neat things
kicking about in it.  I wish info of the really ancient roots of the
religion was easier to find (any good sources anyone?).

>Usually the serpent has a better time of it in religions/societies that are
>more balanced in their masculine and feminine spheres. For instance, a
>greater balance of the feminine/masculine can be seen in Indian, Chinese,
>pre-Christian Celtic and Minoan cultures. Whereas the Nordic and Judeo-
>Christian cultures are more heavily patriarchal.

	Well, I don't know.  Indra does pound the hell out of the serpent
in Vedic Hindu myth (assuming that's what you mean by "Indian").
	As I see it, the serpent gets a female association because of it's
function as a vessel of creative energy (Primal Chaos).  The Hero figure
slays the dragon, symbolically "polarizing" Primal Chaos into the
functioning universe as we know it.  I personally don't put much stock in
the whole "male vs. female" thing.  If you really wanted to, you could look
at it as the dragon _becoming_ the universe.
	I am not really up on the Dragon-slaying myth in Celtic or Minoan 
myth; what is the deal with this?  I don't profess to know much about the 
Chinese dragons, though I understand their function is rather different
from IE serpents.  I would tend to see very striking similarities between
the Norse, Indian, and Judaic versions of the Myth; I think the Sumerian
myth is essientially the same too.
	I'm not sure that I would want to distinguish Norse culture as
"more heavily patriarchal" than the other IE cultures (I'll give you that
Judeo-Christian culture tends to a more patriarchal bent).

>Sometimes, therefore, the killing of the serpent can be viewed as a defeat
>of earlier beliefs, cultures or ideologies. For example, serpents were
>unknown even before St. Patrick set foot in Ireland, but Druidism was well-
>established. After Patrick's proselytizing, however, the monopoly of the
>Druids was shattered. The serpents, therefore, are not literally snakes,
>but represent the Serpents/Devils in the form of the Druids, who the
>Christian Doctors of the Church saw as tempters of the faithful and keepers
>of forbidden knowledge.

	I would suspect that the serpent killing as a defeat of earlier
beliefs is a specifically Christian interpretation of already established
by pagan myths.

>Any other thoughts?
>
>-Pete.

Regards,
Carl

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Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
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