From: kathleen.brewer@cutting.hou.tx.us (Kathleen Brewer) 
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Help with Shepherds
Date: 10 Nov 92 09:16:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Cutting Edge - Houston, TX - 713-466-1525
Reply-To: kathleen.brewer@cutting.hou.tx.us (Kathleen Brewer) 

TO: rhh@alice.att.com

RH>Yes, on basic obedience. (Hope that you get a good course!!)

I believe that you should attend the classes before you join. Make sure
that the instructor is knowledgable and someone you can learn from. I
train at a place that uses motivational methods. This is my choice and I
prefer a happy working dog.

RH>If it's a good course, you won't be the pack leader; for example
RH>with an indominable dog, you do not dominate him.  Obedience
RH>nevertheless works - it works on a cooperation drive, not a
RH>dominance/submission drive.

I don't expect my dogs to be submissive, but I do expect them to obey me
and to recognize me as head of house. If I say sit, I expect them to sit
and they are praised for proper behaviour. If they don't sit then I sit
them and they are praised for sitting. They recieve praise either way,
the degree of praise varies.

RH>It is very impoverishing to the idea of relationships between
RH>masters and dogs to think of it as alpha wolf.  It sounds very
RH>expert, as if we were all little Konrad Lorenz's in here, but
RH>it doesn't apply.  It's a way to avoid responsibility, is all.

I have to disagree, training my dogs to obey me is being responsible.
Dogs need limits, they need to know who is in charge. If I allowed my
dogs to behave in anyway they wanted, I could not live with them. They
know not to jump on people when they enter my home. They know if a gate
is accidently left open, not to run out of it etc.....

RH>Look, it's better than the teddy-bear idea of dog training, ok?  A step
RH>up from adolescence into college science.
I don't understand the term Teddy-Bear Dog Training.
RH>But there's no idea at all of a great dog; no dog you can write
RH>a story about.  SO THERE'S NO WAY YOU WILL ACKNOWLEDGE IT WHEN
RH>YOUR DOG SHOWS IT TO YOU.
All my dogs are great dogs, and they show it to me everyday, by the love
they give me and I give to them in return. That is acknowledgement in
itself.

RH>Good obedience courses look to developing the character of the dog,
RH>and it is the character that you see forever after.

I agree the old jerk and pop method does not work. Praise and reward
does. No two of my dogs respond the same to learning. I have to adjust
my thoughts to them. I would not train a Boston, the same way I would
train a Boxer. Nor would I train 2 Bostons the same. Each dog is an
individual and it must be taken into consideration when you are training
them.
I have 2 kids, a daughter who is 18 and a son  who is 10. The same basic
premise is there in raising them. But what works for the daughter does
not work for the son. They are individuals and must be treated as such.
They are requiered to be respectful, go to school and make good grades.
My daughter is an A student, with little or no studing, she is requierd
to keep a A average. My son is one who has to study, and struggles
through school, especially math. He is required to keep a C average.
That C means as much as the A. Different methods and requirements
depending on the situation.
The same is true with training my dogs. Each dog is trained a little
differernt, but they will learn to heel, sit, down and retrieve.

RH>It seems to me, with my Dobie Susie, that she is interested in
RH>what I say, attentive to it; without a trace of dominance and submission.
RH>Why?  Well, maybe because I am interested in what she says.
But she does listen and obey you, that means to me that you are the pack
leader. Being a pack leader does not mean, beating your dog, or
dominating it to the extent that it cowers. It means that the dog know
that you are boss, and that you require it to behave. If you have
trained properly and taken the dog into consideration you will have an
obedienent and happy dog!

Kathleen Brewer@cutting.hou.tx.us
---
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