HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie roles
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:31:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec15.172546.22578@mr.med.ge.com>, bartlone@zeke.gemedical writes...
>I think perhaps Jurgen Procknow could play Aragorn (most of you would
>probably recognize him as either Duke Leto Atriedes or "The Angel of Death"
>in The Seventh Sign)..although his accent is vaguely Germanic, there is
>an aristocratic aire to it..without the snobbery...he is definitely weathered
>looking...

	It's a possibility.


>As to the Hobbits, what about some of the 'little people' from 'Willow'..

	ARGGH!  Sorry, I really don't think that would work out well.
It may just be my personal taste.


Mark
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:56:58 GMT

In article <steph.724635365@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>In <1gquasINNne1@gap.caltech.edu> laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence) writes:
>>steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>
>>>I think the ring is an *entity*, trapped in an object.  Not passive, and
>>>possessed of semi-free will.
>
>>It's certainly not an entity of it's own.  Like the Elven rings, it is at
>>least partly a piece of Sauron's own innate power.  The advantage of the
>>rings is that they allow their maker greater use of that power; the
>>disadvantages, of course, are a major part of the plot.  What entity-like
>>attributes it has derive from the fact that it is part of Sauron, given
>>semi-independent existence.
>
>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 

Whoa here.  It tried (at several crucial times) to get back to Sauron.
It slipped from Isildur's finger when he swam in the river.  Obviuosly,
it was sick of him. It also slipped from Gollum's finger in the Misty
Mountains.  Why would it leave Gollum, who it had obviously enslaved, unless
it was trying to return?  And why did it force Frodo to wear it at Weathertop?
Trying to make it easier for the Nazgul (curse them) to get it.

>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the Ring's
>own pride that caused its destruction.
>
>IMHO, of course.
>-- 
>Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic
>
>  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
>   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
From: swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:50:54 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <Bz3LB9.28F@access.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.223512.29285@selway.umt.edu> sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave) writes:
>>Very interesting topic.. have to add my two bits worth..
>>
>>Boromir - The guy who played the leader of the 'eagle men' in
>>          the Flash Gordon movie..
[ i.e. Brian Blessed ]
>He'd deserve a much better role than that.  He's a much better actor than
>he showed in Flash Gordon.  [...]

Better role?  He'd be a -perfect- Boromir (if he lost a little weight,
I mean :-) and who could ask for a meatier dramatic role than that?
He's made a career out of playing princely, and sometimes overbearing
charatcers, he'd absolutely tear into a great role like Boromir.

-- 
Steve Swann                 |    Speak to me in many voices; make
swann@acsu.buffalo.edu      |      them all sound like one...  -BOC
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Dec9.205203.6983@msdhsv.ingr.com>
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:56:15

Sorry, I haven't paid very close attention to this outside-the-scope-discussion
so could everyone tell me if there's been any commentary on Guy Kay's (who
helped Christopher with Silmarillion) Fionavar Tapestry. If not, please do.
I'd like to know whether it is worth reading or just another ripoff.

Esko Heimonen
eheimone@hydroman.hut.fi
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Victoria Uni. of Wellington, NZ.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:33:46 GMT
	<Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz> <carl-141292091322@mac7.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:16:40 GMT, carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter) said:
Carl> Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Carl> Nntp-Posting-Host: mac7.gsfc.nasa.gov

Carl> In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>,
Carl> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) wrote:

> Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
> ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
> heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
> race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
> divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
> unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
> honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence
> of an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview.
> 

Carl> <Insert favorite Anglo-Saxon epithet here>!!! Tolkien's entire
Carl> mythology is based on a dichotomy of light and dark, and the
Carl> gradations in between. Tolkien's races have the same gradation
Carl> because of this fundamental division; the division does not
Carl> exist because of Tolkien's view of the races. 

So does this mean that you think Tolkien deliberately made his evil
races dark-skinned? That's far worse than any fault I was accusing
him of. 

To my mind, Tolkien's faux pas in our eyes is merely the result of an
underlying, rather 'genteel' racism, (a previous poster used this
phrase; thank you) not anything more. You on the other hand, seem to
be saying that Tolkien had to make his races dark if they were also to
be evil. Yuck! I certainly wouldn't want to believe *that* of him.

Michael.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:23:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.144135.16398@uwasa.fi>, a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik
Andila) wrote:
> 
> Thorongil (paul@pj.tmc.edu) wrote:
> : If when elves die they go to the halls of Mandos, and orcs are nothing
> : more than captured elves corrupted by Melkor, then do orcs have souls?
> : If so, then upon death do they go to the halls of Mandos?
> 
> 	I suppose they do, unless Morgoth grabs their souls on death, there
> is no mention of his doing this in any of the books. Thus they can claim
> their birthright as descendants of the free peoples. The evil/semi-evil
> elves of the first and second ages certainly did get to the Halls of Mandos.
> 
> -Patrik

There is no "birthright"; they can turn to the West, as Saruman did,
but they will likely be rejected, as Saruman was.

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bartlone@zeke.gemedical (Mike Bartolone 5-4266)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Reply-To: bartlone@zeke.gemedical
Organization: GE Medical Systems
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 14:54:22 GMT

In article 10988@stiatl.salestech.com, rwt@stiatl.salestech.com (Roger Terrell) writes:
>paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
>
>>>	3) Patricia McKillip's "RiddleMaster" trilogy.
>
>>[...] I like this series better than LotR.
>>I still weep while reading it.  And I first read it after I became jaded
>>with fantasy books.
>
>At last!  I've found someone(s) else who has read this series!  I *loved*
>this trilogy, and the few people I've met who've read it didn't like it. :-(
>
>I'm not sure it's quite the level of Tolkien, but it is very, very good, and
>it has different themes anyway.
>
Rest assured, you are NOT the only other one that liked the RiddleMaster series...

There are a couple that I have not seen mentioned, and before I forget to
mention them again I'd better...

How about the Camber of Culdi books...(The Chronicles of Saint Camber of Culdi?)
there is a second (and possibly a third?) trilogy involved in that, but I can't 
recall the titles right off the top of my head. 

There is also a series that I've read the first book of (The Dragon Prince
by Melanie Rawn)..I like the characterizations...and the idea of the Faradhi..

---
sigs are like sound-bites..they never say enough, but frequently
are interpreted as saying too much.....bartlone@gemed.ge.com

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: TMACLEAN@shark.stmarys.ca (Terry MacLean)
Subject: Moria and Angban: Balrog
Organization: Saint Mary's University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:45:59 GMT

In article <Dec12.042617.58938@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> arsmith@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Alan Smith) writes:
>>|> Possibly this particular balrog chickened out and fled the field
>>|> before the West showed up to do battle?
>> This seems a bit far-fetched
>
>Well, maybe the armies of the west weren't as thorough as they liked to believe.
>If *I* was a Balrog and my liege lord was getting his butt kicked I'd give 
>serious thought to sneaking out the back way and staking a claim at the
>root of a mountain far, far away.
>

I think the answer to the origin to the Balrog of Moria can be found in the 
Silmarilian. I remember reading that when the army of the west finally over 
threw angban that the Balrog in question escaped to Moria and hid in the 
deepest roots of the mountain. This area was near the rich deposits that the 
Dwarfs were (much) later to mine and in doing so awaken the Balrog.

Other posts have speculated that it would have been too conspicuous if it 
left Moria. I believe this is part of the answer. The other part is: Where 
would it go...to Baradur and be a throll to Sauron ? Why not stay where you 
are and be Lord of your own domain. I think that Sauron counted on the 
Balrog to be a lynch pin in his offensive in the North when he finally 
launched his attack.

In the Chronology at the end of the trilogy we see a picture of Sauron's 
attack plan in the North. I'm sure he didn't count on Gandalf doing the 
Balrog in. It was totally unforseeable. (What a master of irony Tolkien was!)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mbess@triton.unm.edu ()
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 02:48:46 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

One reference to Tolkien's works in music is in the smash hit "Ballad of Bilbo
Baggins" by Leonard Nimoy(yes, of Star Trek fame).
.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:58:06 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden):
> 
>I find it portrayed not as inherently evil, but certainly
>carrying with it the temptation of power.  Much of Tolkien's
>writing on the subject is if anything a paean of beauty in
>technology (or Art in the large sense) as well as nature, 
>and of the two in harmony:  [...]

I think we need to be a bit more careful in slinging around words like
"technology" without more precision in what we're talking about.  I would
be *very* surprised if the original poster in this thread envisioned a
usage of "technology" that could be followed by "(or Art in the large sense)".

The distinction between 'techne' in the Greek sense and 'technology' in the
modern English sense is a useful one here.  Clearly, Tolkien had nothing but
respect for the "unimaginable mind of Faenor" (misquoted here by me; sorry),
or for the building skills of the Elvensmiths and Dwarf artisans of the second
age, or even the lesser accomplishments of the Rohirrim at Dunharrow and
Meduseld or the Hobbits in their snug holes.  There's nothing inherently bad
in engineering know-how anywhere in the books.

The point, I think, is purpose.  Technology put to evil purposes is an easy
and obvious target, but more than that I think Tolkien expresses a constant
horror and revulsion at the idea of "technology" for *no* purpose.  Over and
over, we see that the first fruit of evil is *pointless* destruction, even
before purposeful destruction toward some evil but understandable goal.  The
chief characterization of orcs is that they cut down trees FOR NO REASON, and
leave the felled trunks to rot.  Hobbits and dwarves and elves all cut fire-
wood, and burn charcoal in their furnaces, and so forth, but this is a right
and proper use of wood.  Sandyman's new mill was allegedly built "to grind
more and faster", but the real condemnation is in the observation that the
new mill serves no needed function, there being no more grist for the new mill
than there was for the old.  The "improvement" was unnecessary, and therefore
wanton.

Recall Gimli's passionate monologue concerning what the Dwarves would do with
the Glittering Caverns of Aglarond.  When Legolas expresses concern that they
might "mar more than they _____" (improve?  I can't remember the word...), 
Gimli hastens to assure him that the Dwarves would only perform *proper* acts
of workmanship, preserving the beauty even at the expense of lost riches.
"Would you cut down flowering groves in the springtime for firewood?", he
demands.  Again, the key issue is not *method*, but rather the suitability of
the method to the purpose.


-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Elf-human pairings (Re: Tolkien a Racist?)
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:09:04 GMT
 <STUCKI.92Dec10131111@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu> 
 <1992Dec11.031118.16569@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
 <1992Dec11.112223.11562@genie.slhs.udel.edu>  
 <1992Dec11.135151.17936@linus.mitre.org>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Dec11.135151.17936@linus.mitre.org>
jclander@texas.mitre.org (Julian C. Lander) writes:

> 1) Elves are better than Men (the race, both sexes); the objection to
> inter-marriage is from the elves.  They are, especially in the First
> Age, more civilized and refined.  Except for warriors who ally with
> a particular Man (I'm thinking of one particular Elf--is his name Beleg?  
> One of the Hurin/Turin/Tuor group--I confuse them sometimes--is his friend
> by kills him in the dark, mistaking him for an enemy when awakened from
> sleep.  I think it is Beleg Strongbow, if memory serves, but I don't
> remember who killed him.  Could it be Beren?  Because it involves the
> dwarf Mim [Nim?] and I think that the Nauglamir comes into it.)  

Beleg Strongbow was accidently killed by Turin Turambar while Beleg was
attempting to rescue Turin from a band of orcs.


Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:49:35 GMT

In article <lewchuk.724799502@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>My guess would be that the color of a Wizard depended on his/her personality.
>The White was probably the leader of the Council and head of the Order, but no
>other color distinctions were mentioned.  Radagast is "the brown" probably
>due to his affinity with animals.  I have no idea why the Blue Wizards are
>blue.  Perhaps mass depression? :)

The Book of Lost Tales describes their clothes as "sea-blue".
Make of it what you will. Ironically, they vanished in the East,
far from the Sea.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Elf-human pairings (Re: Tolkien a Racist?)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:22:41 GMT

In <1992Dec11.135151.17936@linus.mitre.org> jclander@texas.mitre.org (Julian C. Lander) writes:

>Well, there are only three of them: Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril
>Celebrindal (?), and Aragorn and Arwen.

That's Men marrying High-Elves.  There's also Imrazor and Mithrellas,
a Sylvan Elf, whose son was the first Lord of Dol Amroth.  See UT p248.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire hall		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange ***.
 |warren@      But the hiker
/ nysernet.org is not worried at all.
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 16 Dec 92 04:09:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...
>Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
>structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
>#2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?

	I believe it is Radagast the Brown.  The other two wizards shared
the color blue.

>How is all that determined?

	Hmmm.  I don't know if Tolkien ever went into details.

>I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>Fire"?

	The secret fire of Illuvatar.  The fire of creation itself.

> 
>Jeff

Mark
From: ajj@zycor.lgc.com (Andrew Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elf-human pairings (Re: Tolkien a Racist?)
Summary: Slimy Hobbits
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:40:07 GMT
Organization: Landmark/Zycor   Austin, Texas

In article <1992Dec11.155406.7750@ra.msstate.edu> paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil) writes:
>
>Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
>army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>*male* hobbit though :)
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Thorongil

Yeah, she got help all right. That slimy little worm couldn't face
him like a REAL MAN and had to stab him in the back! Good guys
indeed! ;-)

========================================================================
Andrew J. Jackson                     voice: 512-282-6969
Landmark/Zycor, Inc.                  fax  : 512-280-6731
220 Foremost Dr.                      email: ajackson@zycor.lgc.com
Austin, TX 78745
========================================================================
From: bvickers@valentine.ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers)
Subject: Re: Aragorn: (was Re: Movie roles)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Reply-To: bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 12 Dec 92 03:26:02 GMT

>|> Also don't forget that Aragorn was descibed as having a worn appearance

wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:
>Have you got a reference for this, Mark ?

From p. 168 of the Houghton Mifflin version of _Fellowship_:

	"Frodo noticed a strange-looking weather-beaten man,
	sitting in the shadows near the wall."

And on p. 169:

	"As Frodo drew near he threw back his hood, showing a
	 shaggy head of dark hair flecked with grey, and in a
	 pale stern face a pair of keen grey eyes."

So Aragorn was indeed described as "weather-beaten" with
"dark hair flecked with grey" and a "pale stern face."
I think that pretty much qualifies as "worn."  It's how
I always pictured him in fact.

--
Brett J. Vickers
bvickers@ics.uci.edu
From: leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Musical score
Date: 13 Dec 92 13:15:30 GMT
Reply-To: leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <ULF.LUNDE.92Dec11170128@grim.kvatro.no> Ulf.Lunde@kvatro.no (Ulf Lunde) writes:
>I can't believe nobody mentioned Marillion yet!
>
>"Misplaced Childhood" would be ideal!
>
On the subject of Marillion, is it true that they got their name from
"Silmarillion" ?   Someone once told me that they originally wanted to call
themselves "Silmarillion", but weren't allowed to do so by the Tolkien Estate.

Mig.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: woodam@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew G. Woodard)
Subject: Moria....in later years
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:43:50 GMT

Here's a question I haven't seen raised yet:

What happened to Moria in the fourth age?

Did the dwarves ever return to retake their ancestral home?  It is clear
that they would not return until the Balrog was destroyed, yet once it was
did they try again?

Just wondering....
woodam@rpi.edu (Matt Woodard)
From: dks@acpub.duke.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 15 Dec 92 16:26:53 GMT
Reply-To: dks@acpub.duke.edu


jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
|> Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
|> structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
|> #2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?  How is all that determined?
|> I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
|> when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
|> Fire"?

	I received that the impression that the White is most powerful,
but I read nothing to tell me how the others rank against each other.
By the way, it's Radagast the Brown, and the major three Wizards in
LoTR are the only ones listed by name.  The Silmarillion has a passing
reference to some other Istari who settled in the east, but their names
or colors are not given.  Over the summer, I went to the GenCon gaming
convention, and one of the events in which I participated was an AD&D
event set in Middle-Earth, called 'Legacy of the Blue Wizards' -- in
the total twelve hours (I only played four), the party followed a pro-
phecy to retrieve one of the Silmarils, kept in the east by the two
Blue Wizards...  One of the other players seemed to know that the 'miss-
ing wizards' were two in number, and both Blue; I cannot find any docu-
mentation for this in the books.
	As to the "servant of the Secret Fire", I think that it is either
the Secret Fire of Magic, or even the Secret Fire of Gandalf's Ring,
Narya (or is it Nenya?) the Elvish Ring of Fire.
							-Abdiel
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien