From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Does Bush hate Xmas or What ?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:36:02 GMT

dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina) writes:

>In article <1992Dec13.062447.26229@netcom.com> harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

[REAGAN-BUSH RETROSPECTIVE]

>>I haven't seen this thread.  Is it hidden under another Subject: line
>>or have I simply missed it.  I'm reading this in
>>alt.current-events.somalia, BTW.  Is the thread in another group
>>(presumably alt.politics.bush, which I see in the Newsgroups: line)?

>It's in alt.politics.clinton.  After you've read it, throw out another
>post and I'll respond to that and several of the related arguments
>further down in your post if, having heard my remarks in the other
>thread, you still hold to them.

Apparently it's expired at Netcom because doing a regexp search for
the string "reagan" (caps insensitive) didn't match any available
subjects in alt.politics.clinton.  Grepping the directory for that
newsgroup didn't turn up the word "retrospective" (again caps
insensitive) in any articles subjects or bodies.

BTW, I take some offense about the fact that you're so sure my
opinions will be swung by this thread of news articles.  I find that
rather hard to believe, since I base my opinions about the Reagan-
Bush era on personal experience and not the media's retrospective.
I'm open-minded, not weak-minded.  Besides, even if there were strong
points made in the thread (which I can't confirm or deny w/o seeing
it) I'd have to find independant confirmation of them before I'd
consider them more than just so much propaganda.

>>Making money isn't.  Making lots of money at the expense of others is.
>>Put aside those who earned money selling drugs and contraband.  You
>>have left the liquidators, the inside traders, the dishonest S&L
>>executives, etc., etc.
>>
>>I have only met four of five millionaires in my life, but never have
>>I met an honest one.  I'm sure there are honest ones out there, but
>>they appear (to me) to be in the minority.  Why has cheating on one's
>>taxes become such an acceptable crime?  

>   How does one make money at the expense of others?  About the only way
>I can think of are through monopolies or cartels, but the U.S. market
>is quite competitive, and there are laws against monopolies.  

Re-read the first of the two paragraphs of mine above, where I list
some of the many ways to cheat others out of their rightful income,
investment returns, or savings.

>   The millionaires I know are honest.  Cheating on income taxes, to a highly
>profitable extent, is difficult and rare, especially among the
>wealthy, who really get reamed when audited.  You hear about it, but
>in the absence of an award for exceptionally scrupulous tax returns,
>there is little counterplay.  

Well, one of the millionaires I know has a rather large house that he
once bragged to me (in private) was appraised at $100,000 for tax
purposes.  On the Dallas market I'd estimate that it should be more
like 10X that.  He acts as if cheating on taxes is normal, accepted
behavior.  He often comments that the tax rates are _set_ at a level
such that, once one cheats a little, they're paying the correct amount
that the government wants them to pay.

I'm not saying that being a millionaire automatically makes one a
criminal or a cheat.  I'm saying that it's acceptable behavior among
an alarmingly large and growing croud.

It's a blessing that so-called "business entertainment expenses"
deductions are headed for the chopping block.  That has to be the
most-abused one of all.

>   You may be referring to loopholes--I've never understood why they
>are named such, as if the government made a mistake writing the tax
>code and they DIDN'T KNOW people were going to take advantage of it.
>Tax laws are tax laws; tax shelters are not some secret bank that the
>rich get to hide their money away in.  They are a form of investment,
>designed to get people to put their money into it, so the investment
>will perform as intended, i.e. a loan of money to the government so
>they can afford to pay for our big budget.

Loopholes are a different case.  No, the legislators aren't so dumb as
to not know they're there.  It's a simple fact that the holes came
into existance and remain open due to lobbyists.  It would be
political suicide to advocate closing many of them.

There certainly are legitimate tax shelters too, such as the case you
mention.  Those are fine.

>>They're entitled.  They're also entitled to pay a fair share of taxes.
>>It's not like they government will be taking everything over a
>>particular cap sum of a person's income.  They'll simply be taking
>>more from the wealthy than they did before.

>How do you determine what a fair share is? In my mind, a fair share is
>the same percentage of income as everyone else pays, perhaps 2-3 %
>more if you must.

I'd like to see a flat-rate income tax myself, but with the current
financial condition of the country I don't think it's possible to do.
Perhaps in the future...

As it is, the wealthy _can_ afford to pay a higher percentage than the
middle and lower classes.  They won't starve.  They won't lose their
homes.  It's unlikely they'll feel it in any other way than
psychologically.

Significant work should be done with the extra money to increase the
tax base by improving the working conditions of the lower class
taxpayers.

[I removed the parts where we agree.  I'm glad we do, though.]

>>Yes, but _some_ programs work.  The point is that we have to figure
>>out what works and apply it to more kids.  It's relatively well known
>>that most gang members are in them because there's nothing else to do.
>>It's also about the only available source of income for them.

>Nothing else to do?  Why don't they go to school? Or get a job? I
>don't claim it's easy, but, without a doubt, it's their only chance.

Getting them to go to school is part of the point of the programs
[what alliteration! ;)].  As for getting a job, there has to be a job
to be gotten first...

>>>Read Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind.
>>
>>I'll at least keep an eye out for it. 

>Find it before you do anything else--it'll cow you.

Again, please don't be so condescending as to think my opinions can be
changed so easily.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
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