HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israeli racism
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:16:10 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Dan Nabutovsky

> [Reference to interview where Shamir sais that Arabs enjoy murdering etc.]

 DN> I never heard Shamir or any other Likud politician making
 DN> any racist statement. You claim is completely impossible.
 DN> The word "they" should mean terrorists, not Arabs. Either
 DN> you or UPI got some phrases of the Shamir's interview and
 DN> moved them out of the context.

Either you will provide well-documented evidence that UPI
misquoted or twisted Shamir's words, or we can add your messages
on this topic to the long list of examples in which emotional
supporters of Israel have gone to absurd lengths to rationalize
questionable instances of Israeli words and actions.

Perhaps you will also be able to explain how Israelis have had
long experience with "Arab terrorists" over MANY CENTURIES. I'm
really looking forward to what tall tales the more imaginative
Israeli supporters will come up with to explain that phrase away.

I note with interest that the American media continue to downplay
or ignore this incident and many others like it. They are bending
over backwards to protect Israel.

Shamir also once remarked in The Jerusalem Post International
Edition that Poles--ALL Poles--imbibe anti-Semitism with their
mothers' milk. He has a proven history of defining the world in
rather large categories. Us vs. them, where "them" = the goyim
seems to sum it up.

Why do you choose to put my name in the subject headings, btw?
I've noticed that many emotional supporters of Israel adopt this
rhetorical tactic. I've never seen any other other group of
people on any other issue do it.

Any student of rhetoric will wonder precisely what this style of
communication has to say about the people using it. Are you
trying to get in my face? Be intimidating? Be menacing? I can't
imagine a tactic better designed to reflect badly and backfire on
the sender.

<knotes>

<o>#clip

<des>

     Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir says Arabs have
     no respect for human life and enjoy murder. (UPI 12/16/92)

<doctype>newswire article
<newswire>UPI
<date>December 16, 1992

<article>

<title>

FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ACCUSES RABIN GOVERNMENT OF
CODDLING TERRORISTS

<excerpt>

JERUSALEM (DEC. 16) UPI - Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir
accused the new Rabin government Wednesday of coddling
Palestinian terrorists, saying Arabs ''have no respect for human
life....They enjoy each murder.'' ...

''We are familiar with the Arabs for many centuries, from the
closest of contacts. We know that these people have no respect
for human life,'' Shamir said.

''They really like it, they desire it, they enjoy each murder.''

</o>
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Imagine the world as one gigantic computational device.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Allegations of racism
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 00:02:38 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.1777.21345@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>If a recent former President of the U.S., like Ronald Reagan and
>George Bush, had made the following public remark, can you
>imagine the uproar?
>
>     Ronald Reagan said Jews "have no respect for human life....
>     They enjoy each murder. 

There would be an uproar because it would be a statement rooted in
hatred, not in fact.

However, considering the INCREDIBLE numbers of people killed in Arabic
and Islamic societies as a matter of routine, this is not such a
remarkable comment.  

If the Arab states would have expelled hundreds of thousands of
Palestinean men, women and children during the Gulf War (as they did)
from lands where they had lived for generations with no cry of
criticism from their Desert Storm allies in the west, can you explain
the uproar when Israel expels several hundred Islamic Fundamentalists?

Why the double standard?  Is it something against Israel or something
for Oil?

>But Israel is a different case. 

Hmmm....

>Any remarks that can be construed as anti-Semitic, however, like
>Jesse Jackson's private comment about "Hymietown"--these become
>full-fledged media events. Jackson was hounded about his remark
>for years, as has been James Baker for his alleged indiscretion.
>(One has to emphasize ALLEGED in this case, since the source was
>Ed Koch.)

One has to emphasize ALLEGED because Baker has never admitted to his
scurrilous remark.  Jackson, after initially denying it, finally
admitted.  Koch isn't any more of a liar than Baker.  Few of the
people present at the time of Baker's comment would be willing to
confirm it if it was true.  Baker is perfectly capable both of having
said "Fuck the Jews; they don't vote" and of maintaining that he never
said it.  Your bias is really showing, Wayne...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24186 talk.politics.soviet:10010 soc.culture.greek:11898 soc.culture.europe:10828 soc.history:10396 soc.culture.soviet:11595
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "news.admin.policy"s inability to create "soc.culture.x-soviet-armenia"
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 16:54:13 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <BzuL9s.CCy@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:

>Or perhaps someone here can help me.  Assuming I'm in my killfile and know
>how to type, how do I set things up to kill all posts authored by "Serdar
>Argic"?

Thanks so much. By the way, you make me laugh.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 2 Jan 93 22:14:04
Organization: Dept. Of Control, Teknikum, Uppsala
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se
In-reply-to: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk's message of 1 Jan 93 17:08:03 GMT

In article <29866@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:


   And even if they WERE convicted of membership of an illegal organisation,
   even if they were all convicted serial killers who'd chopped off their
   mothers' ears and pissed in the hole, it would STILL be a gross violation
   of the Geneva Convention to deport them, and it would STILL expose the 
   Israeli Supreme Court as a kangaroo puppet for ruling it acceptable to
							    ^^^^^^^^^^
   leave them dumped on the territory of another sovereign country.

I never read news about this. Last I heard was that the ISC demanded an
explanation from the government Rabin as to the deportation. Care
to provide any reference?
--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: stephen@watson.princeton.edu ()
Subject: Re: nazi beer gardens
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: talk
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:33:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.1777.21450@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

> Israel and its supporters are in the process of marginalizing
> themselves in the Western democratic world, with the result that
> they will be treated as a joke, when they are paid attention to
> at all. There is no moral imperative that dictates that Americans
> have to listen respectfully to ranting militant nationalists of
> any stripe. We can always exercise our right to shut them out of
> our lives, much as we might shun the religious fanatics at the
> airports. They can talk, but we won't be listening. Increasingly
> they will be ranting to themselves alone.

I don't support the deportations, Wayne, but the truth is that any other 
Western democratic nation would have acted identically.  Besides, who's 
laughing at Israel now save the Palestinians and the other Arab nations?
The Western world will always pay attention to Israel as a stabilizing 
force in the region especially when Egypt and other neighbors
inevitably setup fundamentalist regimes with jihad-happy campers running
them.

Stephen.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: barrak@tramp.Colorado.EDU (HADI MOHAMMED F)
Subject: Re: Secular state
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:27:44 GMT

In article <42742@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
> ><1992Dec20.100942.7948@netcom.com> zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim):
> >
> >This was the palestenian position for a long time, one secular state including
> >jews, moslems, and christians all with equal rights.
> >
> >	I believe Syria also supported this idea, and even offered
> >	to send in 40,000 troops to help keep the peace.  :)
> >-- 
> >Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

Ron, I am puzzled with your responses to this idea (a secular state). Are
you against it in general or you just believe that it cannot be applied 
to the Arab Israeli conflict? If you meant the latter then I agree with 
you since a lot of people will oppose it in both camps either because it 
contradicts religios beleifs or, in the case of the jews, it might  
be a prelude to revenge/persecution when they become a ruled minority by 
an Arab majority.

But if you meant the former, i.e., you are dead against a secular state 
to accomodate different cultures and/or religions then I can't disagree 
with you more!

---barrak
From: stephen@watson.princeton.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: american opinion
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:49:16 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Dec28.1777.21677@channel1>, wayne.mcguire@channel1.com (wayne mcguire) writes:
>
> I wonder who is better able to take an accurate read of the
> secret life of American public opinion: someone like yourself who
> is emotionally tangled up with a foreign country like Israel, or
> someone who isn't?
> 
> emotional obsessions on people who do not share them and to start
> believing your own propaganda handouts.
> 
> Americans feel generally friendly towards the supposedly Western
> democratic Israel that has traditionally been portrayed in the
> mass media.



First of all, if you really believe that Israel is niether "Western" nor 
"democratic" then you cannot hold it to those standards when judging
it.  You thereby free Israel of complying to Western morality and even
international law, for that matter.

I'm not pro-Israel.  But I have been listening to your painfully 
inaccurate diatribe for weeks now, and I might say that the worst case 
of an "emotional obsession" with a foreign country in this newsgroup 
may be your own.
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:35:55 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <4718@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

[ANISA] There is no justification for oppression, there is no justification
[ANISA] for tyranny, there is no justification for occupation, there is no
[ANISA] justification for murdering little children, there is no justification
[ANISA] for destroying homes, there is no justification for making settlements
[ANISA] on the territories, there is no justification for expelling thousands
[ANISA] of people, there is no justification for human rights violations, there
[ANISA] is no justification for breaking international law, and, there is no
[ANISA] justification for the kind of excuses that you are proposing.

The same applies to any arab country in the middle east. Syria, Iraq, Jordan,
Egypt, the Palestinians in Gaza and Lebanon, etc ... have done the above to 
their own people. No ARAB should tell Israel how to behave. He/She should 
first look into his/her backyard.

[ANISA] Anisa (the lovely and talented)

	Why don't you put a .gif file on the net so that we can really see 
if this is the truth or just another piece of propaganda. :-)

Tsiel
-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24602 talk.politics.soviet:10200 soc.culture.greek:12015 soc.culture.europe:10987 soc.history:10514 soc.culture.soviet:11779 soc.culture.turkish:13759
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "Ken Bibb"s inability to address the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims.
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 18:34:02 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <root.726009550@maui> kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>I don't know about you, but *I'm* not receiving anymore posts from
>the crazed serdar/mutlu at my site...(at least not in this newsgroup).

You apparently think you can post anti-Muslim and fascist remarks
in public and not be called to account. Well, your perceptions
are demonstrably wrong and I still fail to see how you can challenge 
the following sources. 


Source: "U.S. Library of Congress:" 'Bristol Papers' - General Correspondence
Container #34.

 "While the Dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the
  pot boiling by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
  against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying
  their homes;....During the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus
  have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to 
  govern or handle other races under their power."

Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.

  This three-day massacre is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and 
  20,000 Turks, old people, women and children lost their lives.


Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant,"
vol. 1, p. 122.

 "They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
  measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
  retreat from Marash."

Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, 
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.

 "that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred 
  and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at 
  least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:49:53 GMT

jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>No I didn't forget.  The reason being: BRUTAL OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE
>BY TERRORISTS led to the people to fight back, and in return
>the terrorist acted as usual : torutre (sic), killing, or expulsion.

Elghani's spelling is almost as accurate as his recitation of facts.:-)
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 25 Dec 92 01:06:09 GMT

<4743@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>>	One can hardly imagine anything more stripping of
>>	identity and dignity than slavery.  Should blacks
>>	have randomly killed white Americans back in 1850?
 
>Perhaps they felt justified to do so after being so dehumanized.
>And, continuing into 1950 +, they had every reason to strive
>for civil rights and equality despite segregation and police
>brutality (water cannons, arrests, beatings, etc. - sounds familiar,
>doesn't it Ron?) to deny their resistance to racism and white
>oppression, in all of its forms.


	What is the answer to my question?  Yes or no?

-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Palestinians blame Israel for 'killing' peace process / Hostage
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:30:36 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In article <1992Dec24.042707.0157050@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>Found on soc.culture.lebanon:
>
>	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Grim-faced Palestinian leaders warned Wednesday
>that Israel's deportation of 415 Muslim militants to Lebanon was 
>``killing'' the Middle East peace process, but they did not rule out a
>return to negotiations in Washington.
>	Faisal Husseini, the top adviser to the Palestinian delegation at the
>peace talks, said supporters of the Palestine Liberation Organization
>were weighing a renewed emphasis on ``armed struggle.'' He said the
>possible change in tactics would be a response to Prime Minister Yitzhak
>Rabin's unprecedented crackdown on the fundamentalist Hamas and Islamic
>Jihad organizations, which was upheld by Israel's Supreme Court Tuesday.

As HAMAS murdered Israelis one after another in the three weeks leading up 
to the expulsion of the HAMAS terrorist cells, Israel did not once issue an
ultimatum threatening the peace process.

The Palestinian Arabs are attempting to take the peace process hostage.

Does Feisal Husseini's recognition of HAMAS/Jihad as "organizations" mean 
that the PLO is no longer the "sole legitimate representative" of Palestinian 
Arabs?  Perhaps these "organizations" are only out for hire to the PLO,
producing political capital through murder, but not destined for power-sharing?

As for the PLO -- they "renewed" the emphasis on armed struggle when FATAH
sent a squad into Eilat, and when they sent squads against Tel Aviv, causing
the cancellation of the U.S./PLO dialogue.

[Was that substantive enough Wayne?  :-)  ]

-- Chris Metcalfe
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: israeli racism
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Distribution: talk
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:12:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.1777.21633@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
|> Don't be surprised if someday after being on the receiving end of
|> all this verbal abuse that Americans decide to stop sending
|> Israel $4 billion per year in aid. We have no obligation to be
                                     ^^^^
|> involved in your affairs whatever. If the relationship is not
|> based on mutual respect, shared values and interests, and honest
|> friendship, it will cease to exist.

Did I miss something in this year's elections? Was Mr. McGuire
anointed as spokesman for the American people in all matters
concerning Israel? Mr. McGuire is this so? And how is it that you have
so accurately placed your finger on the opinions of the American
people that you are able to make such incredible and self-assured
statements about their intents and purposes?

Please remember, Mr. McGuire, that criticism is directed at you - and
NOT at the American people. Fortunately, most American people do not
think the way you do. And don't you be surprised if what you claim
will happen never will.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24196 talk.politics.soviet:10020 soc.culture.greek:11908 soc.culture.europe:10838 soc.history:10406 soc.culture.soviet:11605 news.admin.policy:920
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The genocide of the truth.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 18:03:49 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <root.725487038@maui> kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>But can it refuse service because a *human* isn't behind the posts?

Yours is closed to the public? I say it's all there. Now, any comment?

 "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
  It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
  create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
  life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
  falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats 
  in this alien land."

            (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") 


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror that
 our cruelty beats theirs."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:05:03 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
> I think it's plain enough that people who will defend the
>  punishment  of a group of people without any trial,
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> on the basis simply of the beliefs they are alleged to hold,
> will support just about anything.

Jeremy is right !
The very basic principle of the PLO , founded by the Arabian league
4 years before the Arabian states tried and failed on 1967 to destroy
Israel is :
 EVERY PERSON IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL BELOMG TO THE JEWISH FAITH SHOULD
 BE MURDERED!

But strangely enough those who hold that principle are supported by
many ( Is Jeremy one of them ?    )

Gideon Ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL       we shell overcome.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24406 talk.politics.soviet:10091 soc.culture.greek:11965 soc.culture.europe:10914 soc.history:10460 soc.culture.soviet:11703 sci.lang:8556