HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: How to manipulate a safe
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:48:36 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.

After working in this field since 1975, I feel I may be a bit qualified to
answer your question without really giving away any trade secrets.  I am
writing on the assumption that you have already opened a combination lock
wheel pack and looked inside.

1.  There are essentially 2 types of mechanical (there's a new electronic one
made by Hamilton that was just released for sale) locks.  There are group 1 and
group 2.  Group 1 is manipulation proof.  This can be evidenced by a safe dial
that has a little turn tab on the center of the safe dial, or a safe dial you
need to push in before you can withdraw the bolt.  A group 2 lock can be manip-
ulated.

2.  The rest of the discussion will be on a Group 2 locks.  When you dial a
safe combination dial, around the numbers between 95 and 05 you feel the dial
loosen up.  This is called the drop in point.  This is the key to manipulation.
There are usually 3 or 4 combination wheels in a wheelpack and a drive cam.
The drop in point that you feel is on the drive cam.  The drive cam is con-
nected to the dial.  Safe manufacturers try to make all the combination wheels
the same size, but there are tolerances when the brass is cut.  No matter how
they try, they can only get accuracy within a few thousands of an inch.  Each
of the wheels has a cut out called a "gate."  There is a bar called a "fence"
that will drop into these gates when they are properly aligned, allowing the
fence to fall into the drive cam and retract the bolt.

3.  In manipulation, since the wheels are not the same size, when a gate aligns
with the fence, if the gate is on the largest wheel, it allows the fence to
drop a bit.  Someone with skill can detect this by feeling and listening to the
lock when they "manipulate" the dial at the drop in point.  If you rotate the
dial at the drop in point, you will feel resistance at say 96 and 05.  When
a gate aligns itself with the fence, the fence drops a bit, and the resistance
will can be felt at say...97 and 04 (number shift greatly exagerated).  Now
you have one found one number.  By dialing certain combinations, you can deter-
mine which wheel the number is on, then leave that gate aligned with the fence.
At this point, you continue to the second number.  All during this time, you
record the resistance points on a graph.  This assists in determining what the
number is.  Once you've found the first 2 numbers of a 3 number combination
the rest is easy.

Manipulation is not like it is in the movies.  If you're interested in seeing
how "locksmithing" really works when applied by burglars, rent the movie "Fun
With Dick and Jane," with George Segal and Jane Fonda.  It is the most accurate
depiction of criminals at work that Hollywood has put out.


Chris
From: keith@kara.ccit.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: interest.. combination locks.
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:59:23 GMT
Reply-To: keith@kara.ccit.arizona.edu ()
Organization: University of Arizona

--

I got some .022 spring steel strips from an industrial tool supplier, and
when I compared them to hacksaw blades they were the same width but a little
stiffer.  Hacksaw blades are cheaper than the spring steel I bought and don't
break or wear out (because of what they are intended to do.)  I've also made
several out of plumbers snake but the width needs to be ground down a bit.

Take Care!
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith DiNicola                 BITNET: DINICOLK@ARIZVM1
Senior VM Systems Programmer INTERNET: DINICOLK@ARIZVM1.CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
University of Arizona                : (602) 621-8210
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin)
Subject: Mushroom pins
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:58:23 GMT

I wondered one time if it was possible to, by applying enough force, just
shear the pins of a pin tumbler lock apart.  The pins, I reasoned, are made
of brass, which is softer than steel.  But when I tried it, it didn't work.
The pins had enough strength to not be sheared.  Though I didn't really do
the test properly which would mean forcing until something broke.  I don't
think it would work, just considering the size of the pins and the size of
the cylinder.

But mushroom pins are a different story.  They are much thinner in a spot.
So maybe a way to force a mushroom pinned lock is to pick all the
non-mushroom pins, pick the mushroom pins either completely or to the thin
spot, then shear the mushroom pins using lots of force.  Has anybody ever
gotten something like this to work?

--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
"You have to work on the tone.  Icy superiority is more effective than anger."
	- Steve Dyer
From: monty@duncan.cs.utk.edu (Stuart Monty)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: master combo locks
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:40:56 GMT
Reply-To: monty@duncan.cs.utk.edu (Stuart Monty)
Organization: Computer Science Dept, University of Tennesee, Knoxville
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu

In article <geb1.702798829@Isis.MsState.Edu>, geb1@ra.msstate.edu (Granville Barker) writes:
|> I am under the impression that the Master Lock Company has a list of all
|> the numbers on the backs of the combo locks, and the combination to the 
|> lock.  


They do.


|> I saw a printout of about 200 combination locks once, but they were the 
|> master locks with the key-hole on the back.  But I would think they have
|> this information for all the locks they ever made.


Seems logical to me also.


|> Does anyone know if this is true, or if it is available for locksmiths??


Yes, it is true.  If you have the serial number of a lock, Master Lock Company
will (for a small fee) send the combination to a locksmith local to you.


|> Also, is there some alogrithm they use to figure out the combo based on the
|> number on the back?


That one, I don't know.  I would hope not, though.  I would seriously undermine
the security of their product.

I'm not an expert.  I've just had a reason in the past to ask Master Lock Company
these same questions.


     Stu <monty@cs.utk.edu>
From: mark@kraken.ucsd.edu (Mark Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: The National Locksmith - Magazine
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:15:25 GMT
Organization: W.A.S.T.E.

In article <ku52n0INNqj5@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> mccaugha@hydra1a.cs.utk.edu (William Douglas ( Doug ) - The Juggler ( me ) McCaughan) writes:
>
>I understand that there are people who would misuse and abuse such information
>as I can guess would be in such a magazine. However, it is sad that it is so
>difficult for a person with a ligitimate curiousity to get access to good
>information.
>

I think you are making it more difficult than it 
really is.  I subscribed to the Locksmith Ledger 
for a couple years claiming only to be a student 
of locksmithing (it was one of the check boxes
on the subscription card).  Alternatively, the 
only thing it takes to become a legitimate 
self-employed security consultant is a designing 
your own letterhead and sending off a letter.

mark
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: POSTING FROM  FBI.GOV
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 05:00:41 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Apr11.031353.3040@u.washington.edu>  birnbaum@frobenius.math.washington.edu (Z.W. Birnbaum) writes:
>
>      Maybe I was not clear but I would say that you are still wrong
>      Mr. Margolis. Let me show you why.

Maybe I was not clear.  I don't *care* about whether I was right or wrong.
Some idiot forged a post, claiming government credentials.  I responded in
a way designed to make them worry a little.  None of this is germane to the
purpose of this news group, which is locksmithing.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: O.K...back to lockpicking.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 18:00:56 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Apr16.103113.11158@husc3.harvard.edu>  toolan@husc10.harvard.edu (Tara Toolan) writes:
>
>    How does one obtain key blanks?  The few times I've simply asked at
> a locksmith's store I've been told that it's illegal to sell blank keys.
> Is this true?

Nowhere that I know of.  If the locksmith won't sell them to you,
try a hardware store that duplicates keys.

> And where does one find a "key blank reference", to tell
> which blanks are close to others?

A locksmith supplier will have them.

>    And while I'm asking novice questions, suppose I can't buy a blank but
> know the dimensions of the key I'd like to make.  Can I ask a locksmith
> to make it for me?   Just say "I'd like cuts .103in, .25in, etc.., spaced
> ..15 in apart?"  Is there an accepted shorthand?  Something like
> "024587" referring to a key with a cut depth "0" near the handle, etc
> out to depth "7" near the tip?

That's it exactly.  Each manufacturer uses their own standard set of depths
and spacings, so you can know you need a Yale 42613 and someone can cut
that key either by using a code machine, or a regular key machine and a
depth key set.  Of course, that means that you could just look at a key
and get a copy made, so most places won't do this for you.

(A depth key set is a set of keys, each one with all the cuts made to the
same depth on that key.  So if a manufacturer had a cylinder that used
9 standard depths, numbered 0 - 8, a depth key set for that cylinder
would have one key with all 0 cuts, one key with all 1 cuts, etc.  To
cut a new key, or to cut a key for a cylinder where you measured the
pins and know what levels you need but don't have an original key to
duplicate, you copy one cut at a time off of the approriate depth keys.
You can buy depth key sets from a locksmith supplier, or someone with a
code machine can make a set up for you.)

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: O.K...back to lockpicking.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:25:28 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <4459@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk>  ian@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Speed Freak) writes:
>
> I found spool pins in the top part of a front door lock that I took apart.
> Do the presence of these make the lock almost unpickable ?

Not at all.  It means that someone raking probably won't have any luck, but
a skilled lock picker will be able to determine that they're there and work
around them.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
From: andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: O.K...back to lockpicking.
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:41:27 GMT
Reply-To: andrew@cubetech.com

In article <1992Apr14.021452.12335@henson.cc.wwu.edu>  
n8441213@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Gary Rutledge) writes:

>  What's a mushroom pin? Bottom mushroom pin?  Are these a shape to limit 
>  the amount of 'UP' you can move the pin?

Basically it's  a pin with a 'notch' cut all the way around.  The idea is when  
the lock is being picked, the pin will jam on the notch preventing the core  
from turning.  Mushroom pins are very effective against pick-guns and blind  
raking, but they can still be picked by hand...


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com
Andrew Loewenstern            |  "listen: there's a hell of a good universe
Cube Technologies, Inc.       |   next door; let's go." --- e.e. cummings
From: haljibur@coos.dartmouth.edu (Halim F. Aljibury)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: O.K...back to lockpicking.
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:25:35 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <1992Apr13.190705.20504@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:
>In  <1992Apr13.140741.10902@cs.yale.edu>  locicero-joe@CS.YALE.EDU (Joe LoCicero) writes:
>>
>> As a student at Yale, I can attest to the fact that room locks are BEST,
>> key master J.
>
>(That's "key blank" or "keyway" J.)
>
>Funny - I would have guessed Best, but his picture of the key didn't show
>the shoulder stop on the bottom (Best keys are measured from the tip back,
>whereas most cylinder keys are measured from the bow forward), the
>"really short flat spots" didn't make sense (the picture showed them
>as being half the width of a normal cut), and I'm not familiar with any

umm...What I was really trying to show in the key I drew were the positioning 
of the flat spots..If what you mean by a shoulder stop is an abrupt vertical
jag from the shank of the key to the part where you hold it:


-----\
      \
       |_________
like that, then yes, there was a shoulder stop.

(p.s. as I'm sure you can all understand, my ASCII art ability sucks)

by the way, the flat spots were about a quarter the width of a normal cut.


>Best cylinders that have concentric rings at the back.
>
>> on a BEST DD key master.  (Which I had never seen before coming here.)
>
>Best does do custom blanks.  I've never seen theirs, but what I've done
>for other restricted blanks is grab a key blank reference, find the blank
>that's closest, and use that with a little hand-filing to make it fit.
>
>Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
From: monty@hydra2f.cs.utk.edu (Stuart Monty)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: Novice questions.
Date: 14 Apr 92 02:31:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, University of Tennesee, Knoxville
Distribution: world
Reply-To: monty@hydra2f.cs.utk.edu (Stuart Monty)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra2f.cs.utk.edu

In article <MCCASLAN.92Apr13220507@duncan.cs.utk.edu>, mccaslan@duncan.cs.utk.edu (a dancing marSUPial) writes:
|> 
|> well, i'm a beginner too, but my experience with WD40 is baaaaad.

Same here (on both counts).

|> WD40, although a lubricant, is liquid and can, due to some physics notion of
|> surface tension and cohesion or some such, gum up a lock something fierce..

I've gotten to where I cringe whenever I hear "WD40" & "lock" in the same
sentence (uuunnnggghhh).  :)

Something that has occured to me (although I've never had a chance to try it) 
is something like "Blue Shower" (A spray cleaner/degreaser, frequently used in 
the electronics trouble shooting world).  This stuff is designed to flush 
dirt, etc. away from an area and then evaporate quickly (in seconds).  

It would seem that an overly lubricated lock could be harder to pick than 
an underly lubricated one.  If this is the case, then the "Blue Shower" 
might work quite well.

Even if the lock require relubricating afterwards, the removal of the old
lubricants, as well as all of the other gunk in there has got to make the 
process easier (shouldn't it?).


Has anyone ever tried this stuff in this application?


    Stu

Newsgroups:   alt.locksmithing
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Novice questions.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 04:19:50 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In    <92104.165057C09615SJ@wuvmd.wustl.edu>          Aack! <C09615SJ@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU> writes:
>
>    Sometimes, after an aborted attempt I will release pressure on the
> wrench and I'll hear some of the pins click.  Were these pins I had picked
> successfully?

Probably, but not necessarily.  If you feel the bottom pin with the pick
and it has no pressure on it, then it was picked.  If a pin drops down, it
could have been picked, or it could have been raised *above* the shear line,
and the pressure applied by the turning wrench was holding it up there.

>    Ah. Forgive me. I'm new to the newsgroup.  Buying a lock is good advice
> that I will follow.  Any particular brand I should look for?

Something cheap - it costs less.  :-)

> there would be a particular order for the pins to be picked (I had always
> assumed that front to back was fine) but after reading up a bit on the
> construction of locks this makes sense.  I guess that the pins with the
> break highest up should be picked first.  No?

No.  Think about how the lock is picked.  If it was machined perfectly,
then all the pin chambers would be in a straight line, and so each pin
stack would have to be aligned at the shear line in order to turn the
cylinder, which would make picking impossible.  Since it's not perfectly
aligned, one pin stack will receive pressure slightly before the others
when you apply torque.  If you raise this pin stack so the space between
the bottom and master or top pin is at the shear line, the cylinder will
turn ever so slightly, and the top (or master) pin will stay at that point
and the pin stack that's the second furthest out will receive pressure.

The order in which the pins have to be picked varies with each cylinder.
It's related to the ways the holes were drilled, not to the pin heights.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Book on Locksmithing
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:01:40 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University
Originator: hes@ccvr1.cc.ncsu.edu


  A lot of beginners have asked for a book which covers the field.
I have the original edition of this paperbound, inexpensive book,
and it provides thorough understandable coverage of the major areas
in locksmithing.  Reading it would bring answer the majority of
questions asked in this group and would bring the reader to a point
of asking much more interesting questions.  I haven't seen the 2nd
ed. yet, but I would hope that it would be even better than the
previous edition.

LOCKSMITHING.
Roper, C. A. (Carl A.)
  The complete book of locks & locksmithing / by C.A. Roper. -- 2nd ed. 
  Tab Books, Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. : c1983.
  viii, 343 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
  Rev. ed. of: The complete handbook of locks & locksmithing. 1st ed. c1976.
  Includes index.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ

P.S.  Don't anyone let the FBI know that there are books like this
available for *anyone* to buy and read.
From: asrs@acad2.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Finding Picks
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:18:04 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska

Hello,

	I would like to learn to lockpick normal doors and deabolts. The main
problem is that I can't figure out where I can pickup some lock picks without
ripping off a local locksmith van. I would like to learn to lockpick but not
break any laws. Could some on please send me information thur mail or thur a
post on how I can create or obtain some lock picks. 

	The main reason I would like to learn how to lockpick is because I'm
studing independly intelligance and anti-intelligance so that I can work for
somewhere in the us intelligance communtiy.
From: ian@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Speed Freak)
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
Subject: Re: O.K...back to lockpicking.
Summary: spool pins
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:15:47 GMT
Organization: large

In article <1992Apr14.044507.25120@watson.ibm.com>, margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:
> A spool pin is shaped like a spool of thread.  A mushroom pin has one end
> shaped like that and the other end normal, and the middle tapered.  A
> "bottom mushroom pin" is a bottom pin that's a mushroom pin.  The idea is
> that if someone tries to pick the lock, the cylinder will turn at the
> narrow part of the pin instead of at the shear line, so the cylinder won't
> be able to turn all the way.
> 
I found spool pins in the top part of a front door lock that I took apart.
Do the presence of these make the lock almost unpickable ?

Ian.

-- 
The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds;
and the pessimist fears this is true.  -- James Branch Cabell.

Ian Crocker 					ian@cyborg.bt.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: codrus@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Ian McCloghrie)
Subject: Re: Sesame Padlocks
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 08:40:31 GMT

In <1992Apr14.233832.43177@yuma.acns.colostate.edu> dd908821@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Douglas Deden) writes:

>In article <1992Apr13.235238.11062@husc3.harvard.edu>,
>the first to admit that it isn't a skillful (or efficient) method of
>opening this type of padlock, but it works (and it's very non-destructive). 

	Well, except to the skin on your fingers from turning those
knobs for hours on end... :)

--
 /~> Ian McCloghrie      | TimeTraveller, betz.biostr.washington.edu 4096
< <  /~\ |~\ |~> |  | <~ | codrus@ucsd.edu  <--->  (128.95.10.119 4096)
 \_> \_/ |_/ |~\ |__| _> | Honourary member - UCSD Secret Islandia Club
Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing
From: conaway@cis.ohio-state.edu (jason william conaway)
Subject: Re: interest.. combination lock.
Originator: conaway@penguin.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:31:42 GMT

Re: interest.. combination locks.

I have personally opened many MasterLock combination locks (they really should
be called "permutation" locks). The two methods I use are simple and quick. The
methods are as follows:

1) Use toenail clippers or some other small clipping tool and make two cuts in
the metal lip on the back side on the lock. The cuts should be about a 1 cm 
apart. Then, bend back the lip between the cuts. Proceed to bend back the 
rest of the lip around the entire back side of the lock. Once this is
accomplished, the back of the lock will litterally fall off. Now you can see
exactly what your doing. Turn the dial until all the slots line up and BINGO!
(BTW, My record is 20 seconds.)

2) This method is less destructive so you can still use the lock afterwards.
Take a small sharp metal punch (a good nail will do), and puch a hole in the
back metal plate of the lock. The hole should be located on the upper left
side (viewed from the back). Make the hole big enough so you can see the disks.
Now, turn the dial, line up the slots and open 'er up.

I once forgot the combination to one of my locks, so I used the second method
to unlock it. Instead of buying a new one, I just put masking tape on the back
to cover the hole (and the entire backside). Then I wrote my name on the tape
so it looks like the only reason for the tape is for labling. No one realizes
that all they have to do to open my lock is to peel back the tape,look inside,
and dial away.

Hammering a lock straight down will do one of several things(depending on the
construction of the lock). In my experience, a hammered locks open because the
permutation disks inside are made of a soft metal and they get dented to the
extent that they now have "new" slots. Sometimes though, they just break the
post that the disks are on or the post that the latch is on.

If I want real security, though, I use a permutation lock encased in solid 
steel with hardened permutation disks. 

Jason W. Conaway
The Artist at Large

Newsgroups: alt.locksmithing,sci.electronics,rec.pyrotechnics