HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:24:38 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <hill.715545655@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>
>I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
>justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 
>

  Fine.  Than I presume you are in favor of homosexual troop
  leaders, same-sex marriages, and gays in the military.  

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"If I have to resurrect you, I'll resurrect you, whether you like it
or not!"
	 Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_

"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
learn, eventually."

  --Robert Heinlein
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: R1SCM@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Dr. Steven C. Myers)
Subject: Re: Definition of "Scouting Spirit"
Organization: The University of Akron
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 04:12:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.132139.15829@phx.mcd.mot.com>
eam@phx.mcd.mot.com (Ed Mohrman) writes:
 
>As Scoutmaster for 5 years, I have been in the position many time of
>signing off for the requirement for "Scouting Spirit".
>I have made various judgements about a boys
>growth, attendance at meetings and campouts, his behavior, etc. If a boy
>deserved praise, I gave it. If he needed "an attitude correction", I tried to
>administer it. But, I have never refused to approve the "Scouting Spirit"
>requirement.
>
>.............................
>During our troop adult leader meeting, we reviewed this issue and
>established some concrete criteria. We set:
>
>1) Attend at least 50% of the regular meetings
>2) Attend at lest 50% of the troop outings
>3) Display a positive attitude toward others
>4) Boys holding leadership positions should be fulfilling their duties
>5) Participate in a t lest one service project per year
>6) Pay their dues
>
>1-3 are expected from all, 2 or more from 4-6 are expected.
>Any input would be welcomed.
>
>Ed Mohrman    Mgr - SW Engineering
>Scoutmaster - Troop 280 Theodore Roosevelt Council
Ed,
I appreciate seeing this posting because as a new SM I am just now
trying to determine just how to guage Scout Spirit.  In a way, I
think I "know" whether a scout is showing sufficient scouting
spirit, but I like your list.  Of course "the" list is the twelve
points of the scout law.
 
still sorting it out
Steve Myers
Scoutmaster Troop 1, Akron OH
 
 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: rcano@bnr.ca (Bob Cano)
Subject: Re: What's the use in having this group???
Reply-To: rcano@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 12:00:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.182030.2959@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au>, 89b0016@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au writes:
|> In article <1992Aug26.173758.11098@tamsun.tamu.edu>, wjh0265@tamsun.tamu.edu (William Hobson) writes:
|> > This week my KILL file has left me with nothing to read - everything posted
|> > was stuff I already put in my KILL file.  A special interest group has ruined
|> > this group for those of us who still feel that homosexuality is immoral.  I
|> 
|> I agree with you partially. I hate all this wasted bandwidth, when I want to
|> see what other people have to say about scouting, not politics. I don't
|> care whether homosexuality is immoral or not - as far as this Newsgroup is
|> concerned, it's irrelevant. Ye gods, nobody's going to achieve anything by
|> discussing the issue here. These people haven't even achieved anything as
|> simple as a letter campaign. Since they're achieving nothing, they could
|> at least do us the courtesy of leaving the newsgroup alone. I'm giving
|> the group one week, then signing off. Not much hope !
|> 
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Robert Czernkowski, Lecturer, School of Accounting, University of NSW
|> PO Box 1, Kensington NSW 2033, Australia
|> VOICE: +61 2 697 2435   FAX +61 2 662 6130   HOME +61 2 663 8150
|> eMail: 89b0016@csdvax.csd.unsw.oz.au
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Robert Czernkowski. The homosexual/athiest in the BSA issues are 
of interest only in the USA. I'm interested in scouting when I read this group,
not american politics. My KILL file for rec scouting is larger than the
one I have for soc.history. If the americans out there were to follow
the line about 'a scout is courteous' they would create a new group
rec.scouting.bsa for their discssions, and in the interim, ensure that
their aritcles have a distribution of usa.

On a scouting note. does anyone have a suggestion for a wide area game
(other than capture the flag) suitable for senior cubs (age 9). Our
fall camp is in a semi wooded area. 

-- 
Bob Cano           Bell-Northern Research    | When all else fails,   
rcano@.bnr.ca      P.O. Box 3511, Stn. C     | read the instructions.
                   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada   | 
(613)763 4086      K1Y 4H7                   |   
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: VENTURE CREW INFORMATION WANTED
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:41:56 GMT
Reply-To: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.scouting, mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne) writes:
>In article <24333@oasys.dt.navy.mil> ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford) writes
>:
>>
>>     Our scout troop is looking into the possibility of creating a Venture
>>Crew. Anybody out there with some experience or words of wisdom about
>>how well this has worked? Thanks for any help
>
>I haven't got a clue. Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but just
>what is a Venture Crew? I realize anyone who could answer your question
>would already know, but perhaps you'll take a moment to enlighten the
>rest of us anyway. I'd be interested in a short explanation.
>
>Bill Mayne

    Now the way that  it was explained to me, very briefly during an
all afternoon planning session, was that it was a "provisional" patrol
within a troop that sought out more challenging (re:High Adventure)
type activities. Now, I probably only caught a glimpse of what it's
about, but the idea of a group within the troop that planned and did
these type of activities without taking older, more experienced scouts
away from the patrol to which they are assigned seemed interesting enough
to pursue a little more. Perhaps my understanding is way off base, but
that's why I'm looking for information!

Harry
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+  Before space was invented........    +                                  +
+                                       +  ...Time had no place to go!     +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: vkochend@nyx.cs.du.edu (vance kochenderfer)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting take two...
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 20:35:09 GMT

     At the risk of adding yet another list of new group suggestions,
I believe the best solution would be to create alt.bsa.policy as a
home for the flame wars.  The charter of rec.scouting would remain
unchanged, since it would then contain 1/10 of the traffic it now has.
If it seems necessary, rec.scouting.bsa could be created, but I think
that won't be warranted, as long as we are frequently gently reminded
that there is a world outside of North America...

I pity those who lack kill files...

Vance Kochenderfer
vkochend@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: nelson@titan.Kodak.COM (Bruce D. Nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Unit Anniversary Dinners
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:50:16 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, NY

Troop 3 of Rochester, New York is about to celebrate its 75th anniverary
with a dinner on February 27, 1993. 

Our Dinner Committee has been very active in trying to locate our former
scouts. We have managed to put together a list of the over 1000 former
scouts, and are working on locating many of them. 

We are looking for suggestions for the evening's program. If you know
of any units which have had similar events, I would be interested in
finding out what they did.

For the dinner program booklet, besides the lists of all current and
former members, lists of Eagles, and lists of Scoutmasters, what other
things should we include?

We are looking for any suggestions which would make this dinner stand
out as a very memorable event.

Bruce Nelson
Troop Committee Chairman


--
Bruce Nelson                            | Phone: (716) 726-7890
Rochester Distributed Computer Services | Internet: nelson@kodak.com
Eastman Kodak Company                   |
Rochester, NY 14653-5221                |
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: TI Semiconductor Process and Design Center
 Keywords: 
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:09:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.165434.177349@zeus.calpoly.edu> jkusters@zeus.calpoly.edu (Chrome Jester) writes:
>achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) divulges:
>->
>->Sexual orientation is important to many people, right or wrong. Parents have 
>->the right/ obligation to control what images/behavior their children are taught
>->to believe is acceptable. If it is not displayed it is not a model for
>->anything. A gay person can be a wonderful influence in many ways, not because
>->or in spite of being gay, but simply because they may be a good person.
>->However, that one "flaw" will be enough to make many folks not want him/her 
>->being a role model for their children. I'm not saying it's right, fair, or 
>->anything else, just reality. I'm defending the right of parents to determine 
>->what is best for their children. I have not, by the way, fathered any, nor do
>->I ever intend to. 
>
>Jeff, the same can be said about any class of people.  Does this give the
>BSA permission now to exclude black people, jewish people, and people who
>wear black on their fingernails?  I mean, if I was a parent, and I didn'
>think it was right for MY child to associate with all of those disgusting
>japanese freaks (wording used for sarcastic emphasis only, and not
>indicative of my actual feelings!), is it my "right" to expect BSA to
>exclude people of Japanese descent, for the "best of my children"?  Do you
>see just how specious and irrelevant this argument is?
>

Yes, they have the right. Parents are responsible, both legally and morally,
for their children until they become legal adults. Unless you are willing to
relieve them of those responsibilities, you have no right to tell them how
to raise their children. There is no universally agreed upon methodology for
childrearing. 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stolz@fnusgd.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: VENTURE CREW INFORMATION WANTEDy
Organization: P.S.C.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:49:54 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnusgd.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <24333@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford) writes:
> 
>      Our scout troop is looking into the possibility of creating a Venture
> Crew. Anybody out there with some experience or words of wisdom about
> how well this has worked? Thanks for any help
> 
> Harry
> -- 

  We've had a Venture crew for about 3 years - it's been surprisingly 
successful at retaining the older boys, not quite as successful at keeping them
busy (esp. during troop meetings).  The 'core' of our program is a guaranteed,
2-week 'Venture only' outing.  They've done Philmont twice, a custom Wyoming
whitewater/backpack outing, and we're looking into Florida Sea-base and the
Minnesota boundary-waters canoe base for next year.  They also do a 3-day X-C
ski outing in Door County WI where they sled all their food and equipment in
(only about a mile).

We have 16 boys in Venture Crew this year.  After much debate, our current 
criteria are that on June 1 he must either 1) be in/entering high school, or
2) already 14.  The premise for this is that the younger boys are (almost) 
never physically prepared for the Venture-only outings.  Experience with the
youngest Venture' scouts has proven this to us on several occasions.  A side 
benefit of all this is that we have 5 Eagles still active, and 5 more have 
their Eagle projects finished.

This year we're going to try something a bit different.  At each troop meeting,
the Venture Crew will spend 30 minutes (1/3 of the meeting) doing their own
planning meeting.  We intend to give each boy an option, they can either pair
up with a partner and plan a complete Venture outing (program, reservations,
menu planning and food buying, etc), or they can be THE troop instructor for
a cluster of Tenderfoot thru First Class requirements (all First Aid, all
Pioneering, all Orienteering, etc).  In both cases they will need to make a
presentation to the Venture Crew, and then actually implement their plan.  I
hope it works :-)  .   

There are also a series of Venture Scout booklets (the size and shape of merit
badge books).  These and the Scout Field Manual are good sources of Venture
ideas.  I'll re-post my list of High Adventure bases as well.  If you get any
good e-mail posts about Venture stuff, I'd be interested, I'm working on a
Scouting archive ...
***********************************************************************
*  BITNET: STOLZ@FNAL           INTERNET: STOLZ@FNBOOT.FNAL.GOV
*  Phone:  708-840-8060         
*  MS:     120                  Wilson Hall 8 East
*  FermiLab,  P.O. Box 500,  Batavia, IL  60510
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 25 Aug 92 00:28:20 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

Correction in my previous article:

In article johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:
| I find the antisocial consequences of wide spread private
racial
^^^^^^
| discrimination sufficient to overcome a near religious belief
| in the Freedom of Association.  I don't find the antisocial
| effects of the latter, 
[discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or theistic preference]

| if any, to be of the same magnitude.


-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2745 alt.atheism:16329
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:59:50 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <hill.715369256@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
>anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo) writes:
>> 3). Again, stop being ethnocentric.  You may consider it immoral for an
>>individual to sleep around, but many cultures around the world encourage it.
>>Just because you do not prescribe to it does not make it immoral.  Just not
>>within your beliefs.  So, gay or straight, doesn't matter in this instance.
>
>So what we have here, is that anything is ok (moral, whatever) as long as
>someone believes it is and prescribes to that kind of behavior or belief?
>
>So that must mean that there are no longer any absolutes. Nothing is absolutely
>right and nothing is absolutely wrong because someone, somewhere believes it
>is ok.
>
  Didn't you see the word "cultures" in the above paragraph?
  Individuals don't (for the most part) define morality.  This is
  the job for the society (culture) as a whole.  If the society at
  large considers an act moral or immoral, it is so defined, and
  people who deviate from that standard are considered immoral for
  that combination of time,place, and acts.  There are no absolutes.

>What would happen to society under this premise?

  Gee, I dunno.  Seems to have worked OK for several thousand years
  now.  

>Ok...say you have a scout troop where X ( where X is a significant portion of
>the troop) number of scouts and their parents do not prescribe to 
>homosexual behavior. Say also that the scout leader is gay. Who should
>leave...all those "homophobe" scouts and their families or the
>gay scout leader? Who chooses who's rights are more important here? If
>either side leaves, discrimination can be claimed.
>
>-Karen Hill

  If the scout troop is up front about it's homosexual policy, then
  the homosexual leader has no business being in the troop.  The BOA
  still has the right to discriminate on this basis, whether I like
  it or not.  

  What gays are attempting to do, and I agree with them, is change
  society's attitude so that homophobes like yourself will cease to
  label them as abnormal, aberrant, and deviant.  The point then of
  gay troop leaders will become moot.  Amazing what just a little
  tolerance will do for you.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

"If I have to resurrect you, I'll resurrect you, whether you like it
or not!"
	 Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_

"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
learn, eventually."

  --Robert Heinlein
From: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: VENTURE CREW INFORMATION WANTED
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:16:59 GMT
Reply-To: ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD


     Our scout troop is looking into the possibility of creating a Venture
Crew. Anybody out there with some experience or words of wisdom about
how well this has worked? Thanks for any help

Harry
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+  Before space was invented........    +                                  +
+                                       +  ...Time had no place to go!     +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2766 alt.discrimination:4089 chi.general:940 alt.atheism:16406 alt.politics.homosexuality:5649
From: dauber@sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:43:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <hill.715462676@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:

>Certainly true. Any behavior can be learned or unlearned. Homosexuality is
>a behavior and can be unlearned as well as learned. 

I am sexually attracted to men.  I am not sexually attracted to women.
I cannot change that, and your idiotic statement that I can is still
bullshit.


>Let us not forget that what the gay/lesbian movement is asking is for
>rights based on their behavior and not their humanity.


Bullshit.  If a scout leader is gay and a virgin (and that is certainly
possible), then he still cannot be a scout leader.  

If a child comes out as a homosexual, before he has sex, he will be kicked
out of the scouts.

Homosexuality is not a behavior.


FWA
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: kutem@turtle1.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Reply-To: kutem@motcid.rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:40:57 GMT

In article <hill.715545655@galena12>, hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
|> kutem@turtle1.Berkeley.EDU (Jon Kutemeier) writes:
|> 
|> On the other side of the coin, I'd like see quantitative analysis that
|> proves that it is not a learned behavior. There are lots of influences in
|> our society.  If anyone with low self-esteem and low self-worth manages to
|> find a person or group that will make him feel important and powerful, that
|> person will gravitate toward the other person or group and tend to follow
|> those practices that raise his ense of worth in the eyes of the others.

From what I've seen and read, many of the studies that are being performed
now are coming up with results that support the theory that homosexuality
is at least influenced by biological factors. I say "influenced" rather than
"caused", since there does not currently exist proof to attribute 
homosexuality *strictly* to biological differences. However, I have yet to
see a convincing article supporting homosexuality as a learned behavior.

|> I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
|> justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 

Then support the equal rights for gays and gay couples. Not special rights
for gays and gay couples but *equal* rights. The right to marry, the right
for joint tax returns, the right not to be descriminated against for a
job, the right to bring a person you love to a social occasion and not get
harrassed, and so on.

If you say that *everyone* should be treated with justice and dignity, 
then you should include everyone, regardless of their beliefs, desires, 
ethnic background or sexual orientation. You should be willing to at least
support them as they try to achieve that justice. 

-- 
Jon Kutemeier_________________________________________________________________
----------------Software Engineer               /XX\/XX\  phone:(708) 632-3033
Motorola Inc.   Radio Telephone Systems Group  ///\XX/\\\ fax:  (708) 632-4430
1501 W. Shure Drive, Arlington Heights, IL 60004    uucp: !uunet!motcid!kutemj
From: elliott@a8.ima.umn.edu (Frank Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Heredity of homosexuality
Date: 31 Aug 92 00:04:59 GMT
Organization: ima

In article <78584@ut-emx.uucp> zeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Mark Gansle) writes:
>klin@husc8.harvard.edu (Karin Lin) writes:
>-->
>In article <1992Aug26.202556.13205@spdc.ti.com>
>achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:
>>
>>I have a little hard time believing this(born gay). If there was a gay gene, 
>>wouldn't it have been lost somewhere along the way? 
>
>"If there were a gene for blue eyes, wouldn't it have been lost somewhere along
>the way?"
>-->
>
>I think what Jeff was saying was that a gene for homosexuality must
>necessarily be evolutionarily disadvantageous.  Women and men who had no
>desire to have sex with members of the opposite sex would be unable to
>bear children and so unable to pass the gene (or genes) for
>homosexuality on to offspring.

Why, then, did evolution produce sterile female worker honey bees?
They don't pass on their genes  However, they do help to ensure that
the queen, their mother, passes on her genes.  This sterility provides an
evolutionary advantage to the extended family rather than the individual.

Perhaps the hypothetical gene(s) for homosexuality is (are) recessive.
Perhaps, in the past, it conferred some survival advantage for an
extended family.

-- Frank
Newsgroups: rec.scouting