HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MASH@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Equality (again)
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 16:43:43 +0300

In: <10107@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>
isaac@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Isaac Balbin) states in response to one of
my postings:

>MASH@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
>
>>This brings  us back to the  inequality of the Halakha  as shown here.
>>If  the patient  would have  been the  husband, no  Orthodox Rabbinate
>>would have allowed  a second marriage.  Inequality is  inherent in any
>>rigidly frozen religion.
>
>Well, actually, it brings us back to Shimshoni's presumptions.
>He starts with an ``equality before all'' axiom (without a definition
>of equality) and assumes that this axiom is so fundamental that it
>must transcend any G-d given religion. He then attempts to show that
>Orthodox Judaism doesn't conform to his equality system and thereby
>implies that Orthodoxy *can't* be right, or, it *must* be changed.

There is a story about a country where policemen always went in groups
of three.   One could read, the  second could write and  the third one
kept those  two dangerous  members of  the intelligentsia  under close
observation.

When will  Balbin learn to read?  I claim that there  is inequality in
Halakha and give an  example.  I did not state here  a belief (which I
hold!) that  equality is something  positive.  I was not  applying any
axiom to  the state  of of  the Orthodox  Rabbinate.  Balbin  seems to
admit that  Orthodoxy does  not apply  equality in  the example  I had
given,  so what  is  he complaining  about.  The  part  of the  Jewish
religion he adhers to "does'nt conform to" any "equality system", that
is what I said.  It all started with a pretty terrible example which I
had given, and which Balbin conveniently  does not quote.  OK I do not
like  it, Balbin  loves it,  so  he is  against equality.   So we  are
divided.

>Now, from where I come from we don't start from "equality".
>We start from Breishis Boro Elokim, and we work our way through the
>to principles of Halacha. We speak about things conforming to
>Halacha or not. Halacha is the yardstick---not the "isms" of today.
>If Shimshoni wants to speak from within Halacha and argue a particular
>view, then I suggest that he do so formally with a responsa
>which can be held up to the light of scrutiny.

OK you come wherever you come  from and start from wherever you start,
and  I am  trying to  point out  what this  kind of  frozen and  rigid
attitude leads  to.  You do  not "start" from  equality, for me  it is
important.  For  such reasons,  what Balbin and  people like  him call
"Halacha" and which I never claimed to act from within, is something I
feel  a need  to oppose  and  expose.  All  that was  obvious from  my
original posting, one just had to read it.

Michael Shimshoni
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish standards
Date: 15 Apr 1992 02:03:28 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu
Summary: Terrorism is unacceptable....
Keywords: Terrorism

In article <3964@shum.huji.ac.il> aplebaum@shum.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum) writes:

>|> Do you like to know what kind of terrorists activities committed at "DER 
>|> YASSIN"?
>
>We all agree that it was a bad and sad event. 
>The problem is that these things that are rare and against jewish values
>are far more commen and more accepted among our hatefull neighbors.
>-- 

They're not just against Jewish values, but Christian, Muslim,
Buddhist, Humanitarian,...

It's surprising that terrorism is accepted by ANYbody,
considering its almost universal condemnation, but some people
obviously believe that the ends justifies the means....  

Most distasteful....

-Nick

'Now if only we could get people to follow GOOD examples instead of bad...'

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Welcome to a New SCJ Reader
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:38:16 GMT

MAZAL TOV!

Eliot and Sandy Shimoff are pleased to inform scj readers that 
they are grandparents!!!

Dan and Gayle Shimoff (that's shdan@tudorct.com) are the
proud parents of a baby boy, born today at 12:25 pm!



-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On Hiding one's Beliefs
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:38:07 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

sb5i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sandy Bodzin) writes:

> Secondly, and more importantly, the whole point of encoding the message
> is wrong.  Richard Thorne defends the pigeon practice of Tzahevet
> through an anology to acupuncture.  Well, if the practice is defendable,
> then defend it.  If it's not then drop it.  And if the cure works, keep
> doing it - if its detractors won't adopt the cure you can go frolic in
> the sun while they suffer from hepatitis.


   You just don't get it.  I'll agree that posting a reply in transliteration
   doesn't accomplish anything.  And I think that the "cure" is most unusual
   too.  Does this procedure work?  Does acupuncture work?  Does most of
   what passes as "New Age" medicine work? Liver transplantation is already
   a pretty big gamble.  It is hard to criticize someone for trying outlandish
   things. I also understand why some people are not comfortable with making
   this cure and its source too public.  There are people who use information
   like this to defame Jews.  Discretion is not cowardice.  As long as there
   are boorish people, like Mr. Shimshoni, who desire to twist the facts to
   fit their preconceived opinions discretion is proper.


      R. Thorne
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: st891401@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Erica Schultz)
Subject: Re: Interrelationship excerpts
Reply-To: st891401@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:08:33 GMT

Sam Saal writes:

>>Moses and Israel".  I'm a little surprised at the cost of the whole
>>thing.  The total cost will be $800, which starts with a $150 donation
>>to Brandeis Hillel, and also includes $150 for a scribe for the
>>in-lieu-of-a-ketuba.
>
>I'd hope the charge would be prohibitive enough to prevent many more
>intermarriages.

I don't think the idea of the (admittedly high) charge is to reduce
 or discourage interfaith weddings.  If that were so, there would be
 an explicit surcharge: "Both partners Jewish, $300.00.  One partner
 non-Jewish, $800.00."  *Then* you could make that point...

I have heard that Rabbi Al will only perform "interfaith" weddings at
 all if, as in this case, the couple intends to raise Jewish children.

As for the "money-grubbing" aspect -- I can certify that we *often*
 get that feeling in our dealings here at Brandeis.  The plain fact
 is that this institution is under-funded, and we feel it all over.
 Although I was under the impression that our Hillel chapter is among
 the better-funded organizations on campus....

Chag sameach --

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Erica Schultz ** st891401@pip.cc.brandeis.edu ** muffin@world.std.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Even More on the Early Sanhedrin
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:11:42 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In article <44648@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

>But the name "Sanhedrin" indicates that this form of court system cannot
>have been in place before the Greek conquest, and I suggest that it dates
>to the Ptolemaic period.  Remember that the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt made
>no attempt to interfere in the culture of the people they ruled, unlike the
>Seleucids.  As to exactly which powers the Sanhedrin had, unfortunately we
>do not have much non-Talmudic information.
>
>Herman Rubin

No, it only indicates that the Mishna refers to this court both by the Greek
name which was in currency amongst the Tannaim.  It is also refered to as
the Bet Din haGadol in the Mishna.

For more info consult Hugo Mantel, "Studies in the Sanhedrin."  There you
will find a discussion of attempts to mythologize the court by grounding
it in the tradition of 70 elders.  See also R. Arya Kaplan, "Handbook of
Jewish Thought," Chapter 10, "Sanhedrin."  Add Moses and you get 71.  
Add Aaron and you get 72.  Shimon ben Azzai (a student and companion of 
R. Akiba) makes reference to a court of 72 in several places in the Mishna:
"In that day, I heard from the 72 elders..."  'In that day...' is the day
that R. Eleazar was made Ab Bet Din.  Also on the day, all the decisions
in Mesheket Edyoth were written down.  Curiously, these are the decisions 
that define the authority of future courts.  According to Rabbinic tradition, 
whenever we read "elders" in the Torah, the reference is to 70 elders.

-- Chris Metcalfe
From: d89-mor@nada.kth.se (Monika Orski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Question to Miracle Analysts
Keywords: Info
Date: 13 Apr 92 10:44:55 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden


	In article <kudrb9INNaj5@girtab.usc.edu>, jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr11.124710.6449@kth.se> d89-mor@nada.kth.se (Monika Orski) writes:
|> >
|> >	Actually, Arafat wasn't the only to survive.
|> >	Does this change anything?
|> >
|> >	Monika
|> 
|> That's interesting....  According to my information, the other
|> three people in the plane were killed in the crash.  He sustained
|> minor injuries, and was flown to a hospital to confirm his good
|> health.  This is also not the first time, supposedly, that he has
|> had a 'close call'....
|> 
|> If your information is different from mine, please share it with
|> me.  I'd like to hear what you have to say on the matter.
|> 
|> -Nick

	
	According to my Swedish newspaper (Dagens Nyheter), the three persons in 
	cockpit died, while the passengers (several perons, including
	Arafat) survived.

	Monika
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: LA Law episode
Summary: Nothing is gained by ignoring the past
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:41:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44477
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Apr6.225050.1075@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> bjag@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:
>In article <624@kesher.UUCP> root@kesher.UUCP (Aaron_Schmiedel) writes:
>>In article <1992Mar30.214926.27883@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, bjag@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bharathi Jagadeesh) writes:

>>> >There is no Nazi science, there is no Jewish science, there is just
>>> >science.  There is no need to cause future generations unnecessary

			...................

>Destroying the results of these experiments can't undo the pain or bring
>back the dead, but presenting the results publicly, citing them in
>scientific papers, and encorporating them into the body of scientific
>knowledge would inevitably result in some kind of justification for acts
>that are not, and should not, be justified under any circumstances. 


>(As an aside, I just don't know how a scientist could present experiments
>like the ones the Nazis did without being physically repulsed. I feel
>uncomfortable when doctors present brain sections of patients who died in
>spite of their efforts to save them. How, emotionally, could someone listen
>to experiments where doctors purposely tortured people?)

How different is this from ignoring barbarous acts which had historical
consequences?  The quote, "History repeats itself," is not quite true.
It screams, "What do I have to do to convince you to listen?" as you
get clobbered.  

The same argument could be use for excising mention of the gas chambers
and crematoria from the history books, or other barbarous acts, such as
the burning of cities with the inhabitants kept from leaving.  Being
appalled at these acts does not mean forgetting them.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf)
Subject: Re: Jewish Students Assaulted
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 12:59:52 GMT


Rudolph Habesch wrote:

	It is interesting how Muslims/Arabs are considered anti-semetic
	whereas Arabs are definitely semites!!!

He is right, of course, that the Arabs (and Jews) are Semetic
racially speaking, as descendents of Shem.  (at least most are)

HOWEVER, to quote from WEBSTER'S NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY:

	anti-Semitism - n: hostility toward or discrimination
		against Jews as a religious or racial group.

This just proves the inconsistency of the English language.
Although the word implies opposition to all semites, including
both Arabs and Jews, the definition and usage ALWAYS means
opposition to Jews exclusively.

Its no different than adding the prefix "in-", meaning "not",
to the word "flammable", (capable of being easily ignited), and
gettin the word "inflammable", whose primary definition is:
	1. FLAMMABLE

You just have to accept that the definition doesn't always follow 
the meaning of the root words.

Paul Wolf
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Calling levine@symcom.math.edu...
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:42:33 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

I just had a subscription request from you. Unfortunately, I transcribed the
address wrong before confirming it. I've now deleted your message. Could you
please drop me a note again. Thanks.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<9204161835.AA14555@robocop.NYU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:17:01 GMT

On 16 Apr 92 18:35:09 GMT, baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker) said:

> (which allows us to buy REAL Old-Coke on Passover).

What you mean, *us*. Real old-coke is only available in NYC and Baltimore. I
can't get it on the West Coast (sob, that's the one thing I miss being
allergic to corn. Dr. Brown's is good, but isn't the real thing).

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
From: larry@izar.bbn.com (Larry Denenberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Recipe desired for Sephardic or Yemenite charoseth
Date: 9 Apr 1992 18:03:17 GMT
Organization: BBN Systems and Technologies Corporation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

A friend of mine wants to make several unusual types of charoseth for this
year's seder, and in particular wants recipes that are typically Sephardic or
Yemenite.  She's especially interested in charoseth that has dates as a chief
ingredient.  Can anyone help?

I'll summarize posted replies to the net.

/Larry Denenberg
larry@bbn.com
larry@harvard.edu
From: sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Question to Miracle Analysts
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:24:25 GMT
Reply-To: sgutfreund@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA

In article <1992Apr10.155119.5846@tc.cornell.edu>, bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
|> I have a question for competent miracle analysts:
|> 
|> 	Do you consider Arafat's plane crash a miracle ? I mean the
|> fact that only he survived and all the other died. Is it a sign from
|> G-d that Israel should consider negotiating peace with him ?

No, Afterall, Hitler had numerous close escapes with attempts
on his life.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: buglady@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Aliza R. Panitz)
Subject: RECIPE REQUEST:  Matzah Layer Cake
Originator: buglady@silver.lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 14:00:59 GMT

Two years ago, someone posted to SCJ a recipe for a cake made
by stacking matzahs dipped in wine, with frosting between the
layers, and then refrigerated overnight.

My copy of the recipe is unreadable.  I'd appreciate it a 
great deal if someone could post or e-mail me a new one
during Chol HaMoed.

Todah Rabbah...  Moadim L'Simcha

 - Aliza
  (buglady@silver.lcs.mit.edu)
From: ben@ccvs1.technion.ac.il (Ben Pashkoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Address for Kasher publisher
Date: 15 Apr 92 08:41:56 GMT
Reply-To: ben@ccvs1.technion.ac.il (Ben Pashkoff)
Organization: Technion IIT, Haifa Israel


Now I need it...
Can someone re-post or better yet send me the address and name of the institute
that publishes work of R. Menahem Kasher???



--
________________________________________________________________________
|      Ben Pashkoff                 BEN@VMSA.TECHNION.AC.IL            |
|          (details on request)                                        |
|______________________________________________________________________|
From: arh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ava.r.heuer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Lyrics Request: Papirosn
Keywords: Papirosn, Lyrics
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:47:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories


Dave Dubin writes:

>If anyone can point me to a source for the lyrics to a song called
>"Papirosn," (or can post them) I'd thank that person.

>Dave


Well, Dave, start thanking.....


                     "Papirrossen"

     A kalte nacht a nebel dige finster umetum
     Shteit a yingele far troiert un kukt sich arum
     Fun regen shitzt ihm nor a vant
     A koshikkel halt er in hant
     In seine oigen behten yeden shtum
     Ich hob shoin nit kein koich mer arum tzu gein in gaas
     Hungerik un opgerissen fun dem regen naas
     Ich shlep arum sich fun baginnen
     Kainer git nit tzu fardinnen
     Alle lachen machen fun mir shpass
     Kupitye koiftje koift papirrossen
     Trukene fun regen nit far gossen
     Koiftje billig benemones
     Koift un hot oif mir rachmones
     Ratevet fun hunger mich atzind
     Kupitye koiftje shwebalach antikken
     Der mit vet ihr a yosemel der kvikken
     Umsist mein shreien un mein loifen
     Kainer will ba mir mit koifen
     Oisgein vel ich musen vie a hint.


Ava Heuer
AT&T-Bell Labs
Whippany, N.J.
arh@homxc.att.com
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism & Halacha (was Re: Following Sedar tradition)
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:30:29 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway

In <1992Apr8.144530.19258@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:

>I am using the term Avodas Zoro here to mean raising any "ism" to
>the status of worship.  Thus we have people who actually are
>treating animals as on the same level with the same "neshama" as
>human beings.  This is more of a "pantheistic" type of religion
>rather than explicitly saying I worship baal or astarte or "Nature"
>who commanded me to be a vegetarian.  The modern avodas zoro is
>different from that in the past.  Indeed the sophisticated pagans
>may have used their idols as symbols rather than believing that
>this statue is actually a "god" and the modern day pagans are even
>more so.

I use Avodah Zara to mean worshiping false gods.  It doesn't matter if
the worshipper thinks the statue is the god, or if it symbolizes one,
the worshipper is worshipping something.  If there is no object of
worship, it's not AZ.  Worship requires a subject (the worshipper) and
an object (God, or l'havdil, a false god).

If one holds a system of values that contradicts the Torah this is not
AZ.  It is certainly not a good thing - maybe heresy is a better word
for it.

For that matter, we all hold values that contradict the Torah, even if
as simple as that we sometimes value sleeping late over getting up in
the morning to go to minyan.  If we did not, we would all be perfect
tzaddikim.  While we must work to get closer to perfect, any failing
that anyone has is not necessarily Avodah Zara.

The belief that animals have equal rights to humans (which I do not
hold) need not be expressed in terms of souls.  Even if it is, this
does not necessarily attribute divinity to any entity.  One could
believe that animals don't have equal souls but have equal rights
anyway, or that animals do have equal souls, given by the one God.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          The entire kitchen is		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/        still full of strange hamantaschen
 |warren@         And the custodian
/ nysernet.org    is starting to get worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: follick@peabody.eece.unm.edu (Jeremy Follick)
Subject: Re: Partial Passover Product List
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 06:01:57 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Summary: It _could_ happen

In article <gdtR7km00WBK03Ynpe@andrew.cmu.edu> Sandy Bodzin <sb5i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Yechezkal Gutfreund writes:
>>Background: Given the location of milk production (a Barn) where grain
>>products are common there is a distinct worry about mixtures occuring.
>
>This claim is just as absurd.  I've spent many hours supervising milking
>(for Chalav Yisrael)  and milking does not take place in a farm.  It
>takes place in a clean milking room that runs with the efficiency of a
>production line:  Tens of  cows are set in place (never a pig within
>miles), iodine is placed on the nipples, suction cups are attached, and
>the pumping begins.  Cows are then moved out to the barn and the milk
>moves into storage tanks - never touched by human hands or in any way
>exposed to potential impurities.
>
>I can't get over the fact that there is still the impression that
>milking takes place the way it might have in 19th century Europe: 
>Farmer Joe walks out to a hay-strewn barn to hand milk a cow or two into
>a bucket (where countless contaminants fall)  while pigs squeel nearby. 
>And because of this impression people pay a gross premium on dairy
>products and some avoid them altogether during Pesah.  

In all of the dairy farms I've seen, while the cows are being milked
they are also given something to munch on, generally some sort of
grain. Cows are not particularly neat eaters, and farmers are not
always careful about getting the feed in the appropriate bins. I've
seen grain get spread on the floor. I've also seen farmers
negligently drop the suction tubes while changing cows. I don't
think it's very likely that grain could get into the milk, but
it _is_ possible.

Jeremy Follick
follick@chama.eece.unm.edu

Anyone who disagrees with my opinions is obviously wrong. :)