HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abl@cybill.inesc.pt (Antonio Leal)
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Organization: INESC - Inst. Eng. Sistemas e Computadores, LISBOA. PORTUGAL.
	<1993Jan8.151824.2930@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 20:56:10 GMT

ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:

| By "Heinleinesque," I meant "in the style of Heinlein," not "matching
| in content the speeches in Heinlein's novels."  In other words,
| characters spend a lot of time lecturing each other about their beliefs
| on sex and morality (which may or may not be the author's) while the
| story sort of stands around in the corner waiting for its turn to do
| something.

Yeah, Plato used to do that a lot, too.  Terrible stuff - in one of his
more action-filled books, they just eat and get drunk.  Gads.  Heinlein
tried to slip it by in adventure packages, the sly dog, but he's been
found out, eh ?

I usually just skip over to the good bits (you know, sex, violence, car
chases, that kind of thing).  There's more of them in the early books,
so they're better.  Who gives a damn about ideas, anyway ?

[Sorry, Evelyn, couldn't resist.  I guess it's my turn in the trenches
of the semi-permanent floating Heinlein flame war.]

Ob-related-SF: S. M. Stirling's Draka trilogy (Marching Through Georgia/
/Under the Yoke/The Stone Dogs).  Stand on Lycurgus, take Nietzsche to
the limit.  Refute (an exercise left to the reader).

--
Antonio B. Leal		| IST / INESC
+351.1.310 0300		| R. Alves Redol 9, 1000 Lisboa
abl@inesc.pt		| Portugal
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dolson@waterloo.hp.com (Dave Dolson)
Subject: Re: Xenocide (O S Card)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:20:20 GMT
Organization: HP Panacom Div Waterloo ON Canada
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

David Allsopp (daa@SEACHANG.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:
: I've also just thought of something else.  Ender destroyed all the buggers
: by torching their home planet -- implying that all the queens for all the
: bugger colonies were on the same planet.  Were the buggers really stupid
: enough to bring all the colony queens back to one planet during a war?
: They must have lived on the colony planets normally, since the colonies would
: be unable to grow without a queen.  The bugger fleet that Mazer Rackham
: destroyed contained a queen, so they must have sent queens out sometimes.
: Is this a plot hole, or am I missing something?

Here's my understanding:
There is only one bugger queen.  There is some mention of what I will call 
"apprentice-queens", but they do not have any authority while the real
queen lives.  
The queen that Ender has been trying to find a home for is such an apprentice.

David Dolson

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: nanis@ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis)
Subject: Re: Forever War and Starship Troopers (was: Heinlein - Politically correct?)
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 19:44:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.194109.10066@beaver.cs.washington.edu> barring@cs.washington.edu (David Barrington) writes:
>Haldeman's "Forever War" had a coed infantry.  I recall hearing that
>Heinlein liked the book, and a remark to the effect that "if Starship
>Troopers were written today (1970's) the MI would be coed", but I don't 
>recall who made the remark (don't think it was RAH).

	Yes, but even "Forever War" isn't PC. Although it's still one of 
my favorite books, it's never been the same for me since a female friend
who had read it pointed out to me that the "mandatory promiscuity" orgy
scene on Charon was essentially a gang rape. Shades of Tailhook, eh?


-- 
  Jeff Nanis				MIT Lincoln Lab
		An official opinion? Be real. 

  nanis@ll.mit.edu			Radars 'r' us.
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 8 Jan 93 19:39:21 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1993Jan8.190746.1126@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.175614.2368@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>Before embarking too enthusiastically on this topic, please read the FAQ.
>>It may save you the trouble of repeating history.

>	Heck,  I don't  read documentation: why should I read the
>FAQ?

	Besides, why should the fact that OTHER people have already done it
stop us from doing it again? Why, that's the very BASIS of our educational
system... 
	...and it's so much fun to see those familiar, COMFORTABLE flames.

>							James Nicoll
>
>	Garlane:   the preceding was *sarcasm*.

	That's GHARLANE, you fool! Misspelling his name will get you
blasted to incandescent gas by a Brobdingnagian blast of coruscant 
energy!


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: pnh@panix.com (Patrick Nielsen-Hayden)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: KSRobinson _Red Mars_... When?
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:43:51 GMT
Organization: fwa

al@iris.claremont.edu (ere i am, jh) writes:

>Did I get the color right?  I knew it was either red, green, or blue.
>Anyway, if you know when it is due to be released or have seen a copy,
>let me know.  Mr. Tor executive?
>-- 
>Michael L. Medlin  al@iris.claremont.edu

Actually, Bantam outbid us for the Mars trilogy, so it ain't a Tor book. 
However, I don't mind saying that it's out from Bantam this very month, in
simultaneous hardcover & trade pb, and it's one of the best pieces of hard
SF I've read in years.  Extraordinary stuff.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden       :      senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * GEnie: PNH * opinions mine
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17047 rec.arts.sf.science:3949 sci.physics:22176 sci.skeptic:22097
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
Subject: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Date: 5 Jan 93 09:00:49 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Dec30.031602.25533@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>,
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|>But the statement you just made about objects isn't true.  Action and
reaction
|>happen simultaneously; or rather, action and reaction happen at any point
|>simultaneously.

This is one I can't figure out.  Consider a steel bar, in free space, a
long way from anywhere, one light-year long.  place a large rocket
against one end, and turn it on.  Let it run for 364 days.  Turn it off.
What has happened?  Try it again with an incompressible rod - if the rod
moves, the message reached the far end faster than light.  If the rod
doesn't move, where'd the momentum go?

Now shrink the system to one light-second long, and run the engine in
half second bursts.  All the same effects have to be happening.

Now shrink the system to one meter and run the "engine" at 600 MHz -
again, the same 'delay' effects are there.

But Davis didn't really account for the Dean Drive - partly because the
device Dean demo'd wasn't the one in the patent drawings, and he
wouldn't let anyone closely examine his model.  Dean was a classic
crackpot, as Harry Stine admits.  Stine did a followup article on Davis
mechanics and some actual experiments that did have unexpected results. 
Like a simple mechanical system with an unexplained 3 degree phase shift.
                                                                          
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	       Legislated morality is the enemy of true morality
From: user@computer.uio.no (PC Jorgensen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Illuminatus trilogy
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:58:25 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: UiO

IMHO, _The Illuminatus Trilogy_    i s   a more coherent and successfully
written conspiracy story than _Foucault's Pendulum_. I found the "final
showdown" in FP much less exciting than the one in TIT. We had been
promised
so much, and then Eco just gives us a "freak show" as the big circle of 
magicians and occultists [I'm willing to concede a point here: maybe
there's
some underlying meaning here - a "message" from Eco about occultists, 
-ism etc.]

Concerning the conspiracy itself, the one in TIT is also much wider in
scope 
and crazier than the one in FP.

Finally, I'd like to add that I myself liked FP, and found parts of it very
intriguing - I wonder what Eco is like as a university lecturer and
tutor...
And IMHO, these books are really not that similar as to be held up against 
each other for measurement - Eco's set of values etc. is different from the

one RS and RAW profess.

Just before I quit - I found it irritating that the good professor did not
mention in the list of Masonic orders _The Swedish Rite_, which is now the
dominant masonic order in Scandinavia. TSW was instituted on behest of a
king, Charles XIII of Sweden [1814 - 1817 also Charles III of Norway], and
is a
"high rank"-system, with first the three original degrees, and then 8
others.
The 10 and 11th ranks corresponds roughly to 33rd degree.The order is
exclusively Christian in character. 

When Eco mentions smaller orders like "Memphis-Misraim" etc., at least he
could have mentioned this one. And with this order's close ties to the
Swedish
Royal House of Bernadotte, this is also interesting from a
conspriracy-buff's
point of view...:->


PC
From: joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 16:34:02 EST
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>     I would also love to see exactly what RAH contributed to _mote_.
> Any comments?

I certainly would. Larry Niven said that RAH's comments on _mote_ ran
to 70 pages single spaced. It would be an important bit of science
fiction history if nothing else. It would probably take quite a few
footnotes by Niven and Pournelle to make it intelligible, since there
would be references to things in the first draft that didn't end up in
the final copy. If there aren't, then it would be hard to sustain the
claim that RAH had much impact on the final form of the book.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  Niven and Female Aliens
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:49:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <alien.02fl@acheron.amigans.gen.nz> alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith) writes:
>(I heard/read a rumour recently -- wish I could remember where -- that Niven
>is actually planning to write "Down in Flames" for real. Anyone know anything
>about this?)

I think it's unlikely.  One of the Pournelle/Sterling entries in the
Man-Kzin Wars books had a shipfull of thrints, presumably with Niven's
blessing.  Maybe they're part of the insidious Tnuctipun plot, too, but
that's getting farther fetched.  Plus the fact that there really is a
gravity-well singularity in hyperspace, as evidenced by the events in
_Borderland of Sol_.
-- 
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: kasprj@isaac.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: RE: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:25:45 GMT

In article <7JAN93.14430598@wums.wustl.edu>, w95_cook@wums.wustl.edu writes:
|> >My problem with Niven/Pournelle, as evidenced in LUCIFER'S HAMMER and MOTE IN
|> >GOD'S EYE, is that they always manage to torture or torture/murder women in
|> >these books with a little too much loving detail. I believe I will take a miss
|> >on THE GRIPPING HAND.
|> > 
|> Hmm.  Maybe my mind is really disintegrating these days, but I 
|> just read MOTE, and I don't recall any instance of torture or
|> torture/murder of women (or men for that matter).
 
 The only thing I can think of that might remotely qualify is the opening 
chapters where Sally Fowler recalls her days in the concentration camp.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cstringe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chuck Stringer)
Subject: Re: Weird SF
Organization: Indiana University, University Computing Services
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:04:24 GMT

jorngh@dhhalden.no (JORN GUNNAR HALONEN) writes:
| 
| Title says it all, is there any 'weird' science fiction work
| like some of the stuff Philip K. Dick wrote ? I've read many
| of his books lately and now I'm seeking for other authors.
| 
| Authors name + maybe some of his/hers best books would be
| appreciated.

Cordwainer Smith wrote some pretty weird stories. Check out his
collections. The Norstrilia books are decent, but not as striking as
his novellas.

----
Chuck Stringer
E-mail cstringe@ucs.indiana.edu



Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Probably false rumor
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 5 Jan 1993 10:08:08 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Someone I know slightly at work told me that someone had told him
that Chip Delaney had died a while ago.  I doubt it very much.  I
don't read LOCUS, but Delaney is big enough that I would expect to
have seen some mention of it if it were true.  Can someone confirm
from positive knowledge, rather than just the improbability of the
report as I heard it, that he is still alive?
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: feijkhof@cs.ruu.nl (Frank vd Eijkhof)
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Ambe
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:37:28 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

In rec.arts.sf.written you write:

>If you would like to see some real parallels, try comparing LotR to the
>great Norse saga The Niebelungenlied (apologies if it's misspelled).
>Tolkien was clear heaily influenced by the Norse sagas.

True; but that doesn't surprise me, because the british and scandinavian 
histories were part of his profession.

>(As were many
>others.  I did a paper in high school comparing LotR with the libretto
>from Wagner's Ring Cycle.  Got an A+ on it; wish I'd kept a copy.)
>My feeling is that you have to go back a *long* way to find a truly
>original story.

But Tolkien had to go back to half-forgotten stories, and clearly LotR isn't
half-forgotten! IMHO it is not fair to compare more recent stories to LotR
(only exception: when a writer has the intention to copy Tolkien's ideas
instead of using his or her own creativity. Problem: hard to discover),
because few writers can reach the aura LotR has today.
When the cover of an unknown book contains sentences like 'In comparison to
LotR...' I feel disappointed.

>	Kurt

Frank
-- 
Frank van den Eijkhof, student Computer Science | Email:
Utrecht University, The Netherlands             | feijkhof@praxis.cs.ruu.nl
From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A sort-of apology to Mr. Stein
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:22:07 GMT
Distribution: world

In <1993Jan10.225223.5066@math.ucla.edu> David Stein wrote:
>   I will make a mental note not to question your opinions.

Oh, fer cripes' sake!

You're welcome to question my *opinions* all you like --- this is a free
country.  It's when you argue *facts* with me without being willing to do your
own fact-checking that I get annoyed.  I do trust you're capable of grasping
that distinction.
-- 
					Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: THE GRIPPING HAND by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:27:50 GMT
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

Alexandra_Haropulos.ADFMcLean_CSD@XEROX.COM writes:
>My problem with Niven/Pournelle, as evidenced in LUCIFER'S HAMMER and MOTE IN
>GOD'S EYE, is that they always manage to torture or torture/murder women in
>these books with a little too much loving detail. I believe I will take a miss
>on THE GRIPPING HAND.

So far every criticism of it I've seen has been a disagreement with
the ideology of the book.  Which is fine, but not much help when
you don't mind filtering for, say, from LeGuin or Nye to Pournelle or
Drake.  I saw a comment that it doesn't get fully resolved by the end.
Anything in that kind of more substantive criticism?
-- 
Love thy neighbor:  Tune thy piano.
From: pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Dune the movie: 3hr version exists!
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:15:05 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <1ir0e7INN4b@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:

>So, flame if you wish or be more sarcastic, but lets not scream that
>there is the US release version and nothing else.  Anyone who has seen
>the recent releases of Sparticus, Lawrence of Arabia, Close Encounters
>of the Third Kind (like it or not), or numerous other restorations will
>realize that that may prove to be untrue.  While I do not expect to see
>a four video, 9 hour, set of the New Improved Dune movie, I would not be
>surprised to see a three hour recut that is much more faithful to the
>original work.

Well...

When the film was presented at the Moscow International Movie Festival in
1987 (or was it 1988?), it was almost three hours long. When in 1990 I 
purchased a videocassete (1 hr 48 min or smth), it was a great 
disappointment. The absurd editing of the film (especially last 30 minutes)
makes it absolutely clear that a longer version was intended.

I repeat that I HAVE seen the three-hour cut. And there are LOTS of people
who saw it together with me, including five or six members of the Moscow
University sci-fi club, call it mass hypnosis or whatever you like.

-- 
---
Thus spake Kalmoth the Dreaded, Bane of the Forests of Gnoy.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:17551 rec.arts.sf.science:4100 sci.physics:22635 sci.skeptic:22374
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Niven/pournelle
Organization: Yale University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 14:18:01 EST

In article <726713445.AA04749@tdkt.kksys.com>
David.Dyer-bennet@f0.n1047.z0.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet) writes:
 
>
> SC> I remember reading somewhere that
> SC> Heinlein made a major contribution to "the
> SC> Mote in God's Eye," and that this is the
> SC> reason the book stands so far above
> SC> anything else Niven and Pournelle have
> SC> come up with either alone or together.
>
> SC> The story was that an early version was sent to Heinlein who sent back 60
> SC> pages of suggestions.
>
> SC> Does anybody know more about this?
>
>My version says "45 single-spaced pages", but close enough.  I have a minor
>problem now: I can't absolutely remember if some of my information might have
>been given in confidence, so I can't actually cite it.  However, I believe this
>letter exists.  Apologies to all for essentially asking to be taken as an
>authority, and please feel free not to anyway :-)
>
>And I *very* badly want to read it.  Maybe it'll appear in future volumes of
>Grumbles From the Grave, if any.
>
  In one of those promotional interviews Niven and Pournelle did for "The
Gripping Hand", Niven and Pournelle states (out of respect for Heinlein's
contribution to _Mote_) that they want to publish Heinlein's comments
on the first draft of _Mote_.  They feel, however, that Virginia Heinlein
has moral if not legal copyright to those comments, and hope that she will
publish it in the near future.  However, if Virginia Heinlein has no
interest in publishing the comments, Niven and Pournelle want to publish
it themselves.
 
       Junsok Yang
From: as232@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Lerner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Movies
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:02:53 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I thought rec.arts.sf-lovers was split up so sf.movies would have their own
group.  People are discussing Star Wars and Dune the movie here, please 
move the discussion to sf.movies!  Thanks.

Mike
-- 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: gip207@sci.kun.nl (gip2 course)
Subject: Re: Spellfire
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:40:26 GMT

In <1993Jan6.182414.18139@cs.few.eur.nl> bidelen@cs.few.eur.nl (Otto Delen) writes:

>Hi everybody,

>I recently read a book called "spellfire" written by Ed Greenwood. 
>Have you ever heard of it, read it in particular and does anybody else 
>know if and when volume 2 will be released, or other books with the same
>characters.
>Thanx in advance

I've seen ads for the sequal to Spellfire, named `Crown of Fire' (I think).
Unfortunately there's no release date set as yet, so it might take a while
before the book is available.

	-Jos
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
From: gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Reply-To: gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 15:18:07 GMT

Okay, I'll be stupid now!  :-)

We have all (well almost all) agreed that the original question was
silly because there is no such thing as an incompressible substance.
But is that true?  When a star colapses and becomes a black hole, what
is the density of the material?  Isn't this theorectically a mass of
nuclei smushed up against ecah other?  If so, how would one compress
this any further?  Of course, it is probably meaningless to think
about applying a force to such an object...

--
Gerry Roston (gerry@cmu.edu)    | We hold these truths to be self-evident, that
Field Robotics Center,          | all men are created equal, that they are
Carnegie Mellon University      | endowed by their Creator with certain
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | unalienable Rights, that among these are
(412) 268-3856                  | Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
                                | That to secure these rights, Governments are
The opinions expressed are mine | instituted among Men, deriving their just
and do not reflect the official | powers from the consent of the governed.
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  | That whenever any Form of Government becomes
or any other organization.      | destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
                                | the People to alter or to abolish it...
                                | Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written