From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Subject: Re: Microevolution and Macroevolution
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:47:22 GMT

>> 
>>>"Microevolution" and "macroevolution" were meaningless expressions before
>>>creationists put the spotlight on them. To an evolutionist micro- and
>>>macroevolution virtually were the same thing because it was generally believed
>>>that they were driven by the same causes. But creationists pointed out that you
>>>could nuke fruitflies forever and get wird fruitflies, fruitflies with three
>>>eyes, or legs instead of eyes etc., but they would still be within the
>>>specie of fruitflies. And today we know why. It is because micro- and
>>>macroevolution are independent drives. Thus, the two expressions HAS become
>>>meaningfull in evolutionary terms. Ironically, perhaps, because of the
>>>creationists.
>> 
>> When I first ran across the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution"
>> in a creationist diatribe, I scuttled over to my nearest evolutionary
>> reference (Invertebrate Paleontology and Evolution, 2ed, can't remember
>> the author/editor) and found the following definitions (paraphrased):
>> 
>> Microevolution:  evolution driven by forces of selection acting on
>> 	individuals of a species.
>> Macroevolution:  evolution driven by forces of selection acting on
>> 	entire species or groups of species (sometimes referred to as
>> 	"species selection", if I remember correctly).
>> 
>> The text suggested that microevolution was the primary cause of
>> speciation and adaptive evolution, and that macroevolution had a much
>> lesser effect on these phenomena.
>> 
>> Armed with these definitions, I went back to my creationist literature
>> to read numerous quotes from "eminent" biologists who claimed that
>> while microevolution was undeniable, macroevolution was questionable
>> as an explanation for the development of life.  Which turns out to be
>> exactly right, except that the creationists had cleverly re-defined the> terms to refer to the scope of the changes in a given species (resulting
>> in a nearly opposite meaning) before supplying the quotations for my
>> consideration.
>> 
>> So what is the current state of affairs?  Are evolutionary scientists
>> now using the creationist definition of the terms, or do the above
>> definitions still hold sway?
>> 
>> -- Morgan Burke (morgan@reg.triumf.ca)
>
>This was EXACTLY my point to Onar's original posting. He is of the opinion that
>EVEN evolutionary scientists  are USING CREATIONIST DEFINITION OF TERMS, a
>position with which I must strongly disagree. The terms were originally coined
>by EVOLUTIONISTS, not by creationists. The expresions have meaning in
>evolutionary terms because of EVOLUTIONISTS, NOT BECAUSE OF CREATIONISTS.  
>Onar's thesis is not justifiable.
>Gary
>
>a position


Hey wait a minute. I thought I had already sorted this thing out. There are TWO
different meanings of micro/macroevolution. The thing we all agree about is that
creationists mix up these terms. But who and what came first is totally
irrelevant since these terms have very little to do with each other.

meaning 1: micro= evolution on individuals
           macro= species selection

meaning 2: micro= changes WITHIN specie, i.e. diversity
           macro= changes that "turns a specie into another specie", normally
           associated with INCREASE in complexity.


These terms are of equal importance in evolution. And what I was trying to utter
earlier was that the second meaning stayed long in the shadows until creationists
put the spotlight on the problem. Originally this was meant as a critisism of
evolution, but some biologists (Eldridge and Gould) took the challenge of giving
an explanation to the problem which has brought our understanding of life even
further. Now, the crucial point: Evolutionists are using the "creationist
defenition" -NOT- because they feel they have to satisfy creationists. They are
using it because they are deeply needed in evolution to explain some rather
serious problems with the original darwinian theory. 


Onar.