Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Father Notification Reconsidered
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com
Date: 9 Sep 92 09:36:10 GMT
 <Bu6tFA.K57@cs.psu.edu> <1992Sep8.102736.27377@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: Electronic Data Systems, Unigraphics Division, Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: rivero

In article <1992Sep8.102736.27377@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <Bu6tFA.K57@cs.psu.edu> beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep6.180116.20083@morrow.stanford.edu> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>>And if the man is notified and the woman wants an abortion but he
>>>doesn't want her to have one, what then?  Can he force her to remain
>>>pregnant because he wants a child?
>>
>>No.
> 
> I agree.
> 
>>>Plead for justice?  How so?  "Please, your honor, force my wife/
>>>girlfriend to carry this fetus to term.  I know she doesn't want to be
>>>pregnant, but I want a child and I have to use her body for that."
>>
>>How about,
>>"Please, your Honor, grant me an immediate divorce from my wife,
>>who I have now discovered is not (was never) interested in having 
>>or enlarging a family with me.  Don't make me wait two years or
>>pay spousal support, since she broke her word."
> 
> How did she break her word?  Are there explicit (or even implicit)
> details in marriage vows that suggest that a woman agrees to bear
> children at any time when she agrees to marry?  (I'm sitting here
> thinking of all the weddings I've been to and I've yet to hear any
> vows about agreeing to have children.)

  There was, in my case, an explicit promise of a child. It was not in the
weding cerimony, but was discussed and witnessed in the pre-marital counseling.
It was even in the pre-nuptual which my ex decided NOT to sign after we were
already in Hawaii for the wedding. Nervous groom that I was, I did not press
the issue (a mistake I will not ever make again).

> 
> If the wife says that she wants children, but not while she's in law
> school (or whatever), is that grounds for a divorce (by your
> criteria)? 

  While I despise lawyers as a class, I respect a woman who has built a career
and would never presume to try to change her life. That's why I would never
marry one, and in fact, chose an relatively uneducated salesclerk to build 
a family with.


> 
>>No, not all marriages have the direct intent of having unbounded
>>families, but reproduction is commonly a central issue, and it 
>>generates rights, duties, and liabilities for husbands and wives.
> 
> Does a husband have the right to force his wife to bear an unwanted
> (by her at least) child or divorce her? 

  If she agrees to a child a priori, in order to get him to marry her, then
YES! If she changes her mind, he should have the right to divorce her
immediatly on the grounds of breach of promise, and be able to walk away with
his finances intact enough to attract another female (hopefully, one with more
honor).


 Is there a limit to this,
> let's say they have 6 children and she has an abortion then, should he
> divorce her for that?

  In our case, the number was explicitly set at 1. That yeilds a population
reduction of 50% within our family, within our generation. Not that I would
have objected to more in the least, but the choice for numbers 2 and up would
have been hers. That struck me as a fair arrangement.


> 
>>Mind you, I think the +best+ solution would be to provide flexible
>>and enforceable marriage contracts, where (eg.) a wife could agree 
>>to notify her husband or lose marital rights X,Y,Z (eg. alimony).
>>If she didn't want to agree, she could find someone else or avoid
>>marriage.  Same for him.
> 
> I agree.  Men who want wives as brood mares and women who want
> husbands as walking wallets should be as upfront about that as
> possible.  
> 
-- 

  I was. She wasn't. The courts said she was right and I was wrong.




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|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|                    When 911 won't work,  .357 will!                    |
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From: mikep@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:32:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Women are inferior
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD)