From: lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Voyager(TM) light and sound device
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:50:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.225733.15760@cco.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
>In article <8278.19362@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>, lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>>>|> They have the research
>>>|> available for viewing.  I recommend Megabrain as they are a well
>>>|> established company and have more info at their fingertips.
>>>|> What I viewed was some glossy paperwork that showed an
>>>|> ultrasound(???) image of the brain before, during, and after a
>>>|> session with the Voyager. The image of the brain was color
>>>|> computer-enhanced to show which areas of the brain were active
>>>|> and inactive.....check it out for yourself.
>>>What in the word does ultra-sound have to do with EEG?  You said
>>>these things enhance alpha, delta, and theta production, which,
>>>so far as I know, could not be detected by ultrasound.  And
>>>what is the point of the images of the brain?  (Other than to
>>>pretend to have some scientific backing for their claims.)
>>How would you know if you haven't read it?!?!?!
>
>Perhaps because ultrasound doesn't detect anything that can possibly be used to
>judge brain activity?
 Ok .... I can accept this as I am not a scientist.
>
>>This isn't skepticism....this is more towards the ignorance side of
>>the meter. I am only a technical writer...NOT a scientist.
>>You will have to see the info for yourself....perhaps it was a
>>cat scan....I'm not sure at this point anymore because I dont
>>care anymore. I've owned it for a year and am satisfied wityh
>>its performance.
>
>A cat scan also doesn't tell you anything useful about brain function.  Perhaps
>it was a PET scan?  Perhaps you simply don't have the slightest idea what
>you're talking about and accept the company's PR at face value?	

Perhaps you are correct? But I do keep stating that I am not a
scientist.  I am a technical writer with a degree in Journalism
and only a "smattering" of braod science electives. Never
pretended to be otherwise.
>
>>>|> BUT...regardless what you people think in this group.....this
>>>|> stuff works very well to at least calm and relax you to the
>>>|> point of complete and sound sleep. You want to find out if you
>>>|> win....you have to place the bet...or get off the gambling
>>>|> table. Get the analogy?
>>>LOTS of things help people get calm.  In particular, lots of PLACEBOS
>>>help people get calm.  This is well known and not even exciting
>>>news.  But these companies specifically claim that this thing works by
>>>changing your EEG, and you were endorsing these claims.  I asked 
>>>whether it actually DOES anything to your EEG, and I still don't
>>>know.
>>I never said it changes EEGs. I said or meant to say that it
>>actually synchronizes the output of both brain hemispheres.
>>The only claim that I endorse is that it does help one to
>>relax... If you're on this net then you
>
>The ONLY way to tell whether the machine "synchronizes the output of both brani
>hemispheres" is via EEG.  Other things, like PET scans, give average levels of
>brain activity over MANY cycles of any brain waves.  You really DON'T know
>enough to have the slightest idea of whether the company's PR is pure bullshit
>or not.

Absolutely...I totally agree with you...I ODN'T have the
slightest inkling as to whether the documentation was true or
not.  They showed a computer-enhanced photo of some sort of
output that "showed" the human brain.....the areas that were
enhanced were so to "indicate areas of activity." I bought
it....I dont spend much money so a little waste here and there
is acceptable to me...tried it and liked it. It works ...I can't
say much about claims that the brain is entrained into specific
frequencies....what I can say is that it definitively works to
calm one down...to relax....how it does it....I can only base
that explanation on what I have read from other sources..
>
>>>I NEVER said it didn't "work" for you, but I strongly doubt that
>>>it works for the reasons claimed.  Does it matter?  It depends on how
>>>picky you are about the importance of telling the truth.
>>It WILL work for EVERYONE. How it will work is the question.
>>Studies HAVE shown that it can induce a seizure in
>>epileptics...so now is THIS a placebo effect? You're crazy! Buy
>>it and find out for yourself...this conversation is a bore.
>
>Oh.  Are you now claiming that this device has been shown to be dangerous and
>quite possibly lethal?  Or are you claiming that studies have shown that
>certain visual stimuli (not necessarily those provided by the machine in
>question, though) can trigger seizures?
>
>>>Personally, I try to find out what the game is, what the odds are, 
>>>whether it is honest, and so on.
>>I am EXTREMELY picky on being honest. I have no reason to lie to
>>you or anyone else and further I dont give a rat's ass what
>>anyone thinks of my opinions! I speak the truth as I know it to
>>be.
>
>Frankly, based on a number of ridiculous assertions you made above, you are
>totally incapable of judging whether this machine does what it claims to do.

Look bud....I claim now and for the record:
I AM NOT A SCIENTIST NOR A RESEARCHER. So please take your
hostilities and put them where your sun doesn't shine...ok?

I do claim for the record that it does work to produce a relaxed
state of mind and body....I don't know how it does that...
>
>>This does not preclude the possiblity that I have been lied
>>to effectively or that I am deluding myself....but personally I
>>dont think this is the case.
>
>The evidence you've provided for us suggest otherwise.

I am not providing "evidence"...you should get your terms
straight here. I am providing a "consumer testimony." That's it.
If anyone wants to buy one based on this...I dont care. If you
dont, I dont care. I am not qualified to make a scientific
judgement so I dont. Those words are yours...not mine.
>
>>This is the type of thing where if you want to find out..YOU have
>>to experience it..
>
>Why?  Perhaps it IS simply the placebo effect.  This, like most other
>verifiable claims, is the sort of thing where, if you want to find out, you
>have to look at acual studies, done under controlled conditions.
>
>>Bottom line here is: if you are REALLY curious..THEN YOU have to
>>try it for yourself and see.....don't take anyone's word for
>>something like this neither do not debunk what you dont know
>>for sure to be true or false!
>
>Yeah.  This is EXACTLY the spiel given by people selling perpetual motion
>machines.  "No, I can't give you the specifications, and, no, you can't come in
>and test the machine (it was working yesterday, but it seems to have broken; 
>call back in a few months and you'll get the same story again).  If you want
>one, you've got to pay me up front with absolutely NO evidence other than my
>rather vague claims that it really DOES work."
>
>John McCarthy:  This guy seems to live in the Bay area.  Why don't you sell him 
>a bridge or two?


Why dont you buy a dream or two? You could use it from where I
sit.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
>
>Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
>understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
>unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
>organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
>hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Carl...get a better attitude will ya?!?! I'm not anyone's enemy
nor am I trying to sell anyone anything.....personally, how can
I care that much about anyone I don't know? I neither dislike
nor like you. You simply exists and I assume intelligence until
proven otehrwise. It was YOU who made the ASSUMPTION that I was
providing "<scientific> evidence".  I am not doing that at all.
I am providing a description of what it is, how *I have been
told* it works, and how *I FEEL* when I use it...that's all
bud...no more no less......any risks, financial or otherwise,
that one takes when purchasing a product like this is up to the
purchaser. I am neither advocating nor debunking it.

Len
DISCLAIMER: My opnions not my employer's
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
		-- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92