HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thad@public.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was: 9 track data storage?)
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:57:35 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, Mountain View CA

In article <1992Jul27.192741.16732@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> aduell@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell) writes:
>[...]
>Talking of old storage, how many still use 8" floppies (I have them on my
>PDP11/45 (DEC RX02), CASU super C CP/M machine, FTS-88 CPM/86 machine, and
>[...]

Ah, 8" floppies.  Almost forgot about those; they're still used on DEC's
VAX-11/780 and 785 machines (although, to be fair, DEC doesn't still sell
those machines!  I got mine free from Cisco seeing as they were about to
toss them (the VAXen) in SF Bay (marine habitats? :-) or something).

Talk about frozen-molasses slow: about 10 minutes to read 200+ Kbytes or so.


Thad Floryan [ thad@btr.com (OR) {decwrl, mips, fernwood}!btr!thad ]
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche)
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long...
Organization: MetaPro Systems, Perth, Western Australia
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 07:36:24 GMT

In a previous article, gudjm@uniwa.uwa.edu.au  says:
>
>Just out of curiosity... out of all of you hackers who wear a digital
>watch, how many have it in 24 hour mode?

Well, mine has an analogue face (Quicker to interpret ==
better UI), but the digital display part, when set to time
is in 24 hour mode.
-- 
+-----+ Bernd Felsche                     _--_|\  #include <std/disclaimer.h>
| | | | MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd          /      \ bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au
| | | | 328 Albany Highway,              X_.--._/         Fax: +61 9 472 3337
|m|p|s| Victoria Park, Western Australia 6100  v        Phone: +61 9 362 9355
From: jelson@poincare.cs.jhu.edu (Jeremy Elson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computers on TV
Date: 28 Jul 92 06:56:17 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD

In article <1992Jul27.185950.6352@bwdls61.bnr.ca> osicoop@bwdls138 (Doug Gould) writes:
>dp35@mc1adm.UWaterloo.ca (Greg Moore) writes:
>: The season finalle of last years _Quantum_Leap_ had the person in charge
>: of the computer mention that it had ? gigabytes of storage.
>: 
>: What was funny is that she pronounced it "Jiga-bytes".
>
>I'm pretty sure the proper "metric" pronounciation is "jiga" for 10^9.

Yeah, I think "giga" is supposed to be pronounced "jiga" (I've seen the
prefix in a dictionary with the pronounciation guide indicating "jiga";
also recall _Back_to_the_Future_'s infamous "1.21 gigawatts" ... "What the
hell is a gigawatt!?")  In the context of computers, though, I always
hear it pronounced with a hard G.

Pulling out the dictionary, I find other Easily Confusable Definitions:

A "gig" (pronounced with a hard g) is slang for a musical engagement,
a prolonged spear for fishing, or a light, 2-wheeled horse drawn carriage.

A "jig" is a special kind of fast dance you do to avoid getting hit
by a tape reel flying past your head at high velocity while standing in a
machine room.

:-) :-)

-je
-- 
Jeremy Elson
jelson@server.cs.jhu.edu (Internet) / jelson@jhuvms (Bitnet)
From: chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: dinosaur horsepower
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:56:24 GMT
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853


>There is also METAL papertape for the ultimate in sturdiness.  Probably used
>in NC applications.  Anyone know what kind DEC used for their Gardner-Denver
>wire-wrapping machines that produced the PDP-8, etc. backplanes?

Really? A _machine_ made those backplanes? That is amazing! I'm not
doubting you, just astounded. Then again, if you have ever looked at
one, you must have wondered how people could have possibly made them
-- I know that when I do wire wrapping, I have to test every
connection for continuity, and a fair number have to be redone.  Plus
the wire breaks fairly often, etc. I do have a cheesy hand tool, but
it is truly a tribute to something or other that those backplanes were
made at all. 

This is on my mind, since last night I had to add 2 wires
to the backplane of my pdp-11/20 so that I could use my Toshiba laptop
as the console :-)
From: absurd@applelink.apple.com (Tim Dierks, software saboteur)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: progress? (was Re: Most ridiculous compiler restrictions)
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:41:05 GMT
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Organization: MacDTS Misfits

In article <14dpt9INN347@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu)
wrote:
> 
> 
> In article <1992Jul9.220629.19776@midway.uchicago.edu> jcav@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
> }All I was trying to say in the earlier article was that the Apple engineers
> }did come to their senses by the time of the Apple IIgs; but in spite of
> }that, there's nothing that can be done to allow OS-supported proportional
> }scrollbar thumbs in the Mac OS.  Of course, there's nothing at all stopping a
> 
> 	"Nothing that can be done"?  That sure seems like a very rash 
> decision, especially when it comes to something as insignificant in the big
> picture as scroll bars.
> 
> 	With all of the machinations that have been done to get MultiFinder to
> work, proportional scroll bars seem like a very miniscule job *in relation*
> to the other one.
[...]
> 	Please explain to me what I am missing..  The Mac Toolbox seems 
> close enough in most respects that my main guesses/theories should be close
> to right...  If I'm completely wrong, explain (nicely) why I'm wrong..

The problem is that it's entirely up to the application to decide how
to measure the units the scroll bar tracks.  For example, I could create
a scroll bar for my word processor where its value was the number of lines
into the document, the number of pixels into the document, the number of
characters, or virtually any other measurement I wished to use.  I could
even use an arbitrary scale, such as 1-1000, and translate the value to a
position myself.  Given all this, it is impossible for a scroll bar to
figure out how much of the document is being displayed; thus, it has no
way to determine how large to make the proportional scroll box.  While
it would be possible to define an interface so that applications could
start describing how large the thumb should be, it hasn't been done.
I'm aware that there is a publicly available CDEF which replaces the
scroll bar definition to provide a proportional thumb, but I believe it
works by assuming that its units are in pixels, so it uses its height
to calculate the proportionality, assuming that the document's content
is as tall as the scroll bar that manipulates it.  This probably works
OK in paint programs and in one or two extremely simple text-editing
programs, but fails otherwise.

Tim Dierks
MacDTS, but I speak for the trees
From: Daryn.Belden@f99.n121.z1.FidoNet.Org (Daryn Belden)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: EGA Mono pinout
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:55:43 GMT


   "alt.folklore.computers"... what the hell does THAT mean?

 

   I'm not sure if this is the right board to post on ( ^ ), but here 
goes: I'm looking for a pinout for a monochrome EGA 9-pin monitor cable, 
specifically what each pin is labeled as, and its function.  I'm trying 
to build a cable to use an EGA monitor on my Amiga ( yah, i know, it's 
all I've got ), so if anyone can help me with this little problem, 
puh-lease do so!

 

                                            -DSB


 * Origin: NineJackNine / 608-256-5697 / Madison WI / (1:121/99.0)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dagbrown@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Dave Brown)
Subject: Re: Did the 80186 exist?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:34:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.000006.27461@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
>>In article <1992Jun26.183126.17648@shell.shell.com> pace@fmcrunch
>(Stephen O. Pace) writes:
>>    My question is, was there a 186?  Was this a minor revision of the 8086?
>>    Did it die a quick death when the 286 came out?  How different was the
>>    instruction set?
>
>They were used at University of Waterloo for the Real Time Programming
>course, and the last time I was through the M&C building back in June,
>they seemed to still be ticking away in the Real Time lab.  I don't
>know who made 'em, but they used a C by Computer Innovations...

(peering into the Real Time lab's window and watching trains happily
crash into each other :-) ) Yup, the 186's still are.  I know a 
couple of people who're taking that course.  

From the CS 452 course outline: 
%Students  develop  programs  to run on an Intel iAPX186 microcom-
%puter  system.  A  VAX  computer running UNIX is used for program
%development.   Programs are written and cross-compiled on the VAX
%and  downloaded for execution on the micro-computer system.  

--
Dave Brown
dagbrown@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Phone: (519) 725-6896
"I believe the word you're looking for is, 'AAAARRGH!!!!'" - The Penguin
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Silly Idea (was: re:risosaur noises)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:48:16 GMT

In article <cc2x-290792150945@128.253.63.120> cc2x@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Jeff Luszcz) writes:
>  Okay here's a silly idea. After hearing people talk about the sounds
>that came out of the computers speaker while a program was running,
>ie LINC, LINC-8, and PDP-12 computers, playing a song of some type I got
>an idea that may be a little silly.
>  Why not make an emulator that would emulate the noises made by those
>computers while it ran a program.
>  You could load your orginal program (if it was still in machine readible
>form (for a machine that could still read it)) and hear 'flight of the
>bumblebees again...)
>   What do you think, what would you need to do this? Sample some noises I
>would guess with a little idea of the mechanics of the creation of the
>particular noises.
>    ????
>    -Jeff
>
>---
>   Jeffrey Luszcz                   Internet Address
>   210 Linden Ave Apt#3                cc2x@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
>   Ithaca,NY                        Bitnet Address
>     14850                             cc2x@crnlvax5
>                                    Tel:(607)273-6888

Just come to New York City and listen to it.  If you want to tape it and
sample it or something, I think we can work out a copyright deal :-).

(I can just see the album now: Greatest Computer Hits of All Time)

cjl
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: MS-LOSS Stupidity (Wasn't: Computer Button Sayings)
Date: 21 Jul 92 11:05:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Jul21.110514.22802
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <phillips.711705281@infs4> phillips@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au (Christopher Phillips) writes:
>lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>
>>In article <YKHHPRC@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>>>In article <13438@mindlink.bc.ca> Jeremy_Reimer@mindlink.bc.ca (Jeremy Reimer) writes:
>>>>If you just want a _game_, and cute little effects, the shareware
>>>>market is full of these gems, and for free! (At least the FIRST episode is
>>>>usually free)  Stuff like Commander Keen and Jill of the Jungle...
>>>
>>>Bullshit.
>>>
>>>A good game requires massive attention to *playability*, which comes no
>>>freer than fancy graphics and doesn't look as nice in a screen shot. The
>>>freeware games rarely have it, and the commercial ones seem to confuse it
>>>with sizzle.
>
>>Have you played PC Commander Keen 1 to confirm your statement?
>
>>cjl
>
>Yes.  Unfortunately for Commander Keen, I've played far too may superior
>c64 games.  

I think you misunderstand the post.  The poster was talking about the
freeware versions of games in this category.  Command Keen 1 is free to
entice you to purchase the rest of the lot.  The rest are superior to the
free one.  So, for your benefit, are you comparing C64 games of the same
general type to the best of the Apogee/ID software games for the PC and
claiming that the C64 games are superior?  If so, then in what specific
ways?

The overall family characteristic of the Apogee series is smooth, detailed
flowing graphics using methods apparently quite different from the others.
Remember, the PC is scarred with the problems of supporting CGA.  Apogee
games require EGA or VGA.  Further, they do not use scanned graphics as do
the latest crop of Sierra games, although it's cute to see slimy walls with
MCGA details scanned in and the slime "sweats" as in SQ4.  But in Sierra
games, there is no motion other than your player moving under your control.
The Apogee games often have quite a few things moving at once.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: DECtape (was: Worst tape drives)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:30:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.031236.4580@ecl.psu.edu> bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen) writes:
>
>Our PDP-10 (DEC10.PSU.Edu) has 8 DECtape drives.  They've had no maintenance
>whatsoever since we dropped our contract 10+ years ago.  Three still
>work.  Recently, I read 40+ tapes which were written 20 years ago on
>some other system.  One or two were unreadable.

One of the worst forms of failure of DECtape is attributable to field circus.
Other than cleaning the guides and rear plates, the best DECtape maintenance
is no maintenance at all.

Probably the tapes were abused on a "maintained" system.  If you still have
problems with the tapes, send them to me; I probably can recover the data
for you.

cjl
From: grog@adagio.UUCP (Greg Lehey)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Non Unix-OS's
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:50:34 GMT
Organization: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, W-6324 Feldatal, Germany

In article <9207291418.AA17748@thep.lu.se> magnus@THEP.LU.SE (Magnus Olsson) writes:
>So, I wonder, how many non-Unix OS's are still being used on *new*
>multi-user hardware? Of course, there are a lot of old systems,
>running old OS's. And there are lots of microcomputer OS's, but let's
>exclude most of them by defining "OS", I mean multi-tasking, multi-user
>OS. 

One that I consider very significant is Tandem's Guardian operating
system. This definitely fits your category: it's multi-tasking,
multi-user, multi-processor, multi-system. It was originally designed
in 1974 for the Tandem/16 (posthumously called NonStop 1), and has
``just growed'' since then. It is still in use on the latest Tandem
machines (now MIPS R3000 based), and there is no evidence of it going
away in the near future. Important features are:

- support for multiple processors. The T/16 architecture has between 2
  and 16 processors per system. The processors are loosely coupled via
  a pair of fast interprocessor busses. They do not share memory. The
  background here is, of course, fault tolerance.

- process based architecture - similar to what is nowadays called a
  ``microkernel''. The non-process part of the kernel is limited to
  libraries and first-level interrupt handlers. All I/O is performed
  by processes.

- message passing architecture - all interprocess communication (and
  this includes I/O - see above) is handled by a so-called ``message
  system''. This handles the problems of inter-processor communication
  and allows an almost automatic extension into the LAN and WAN
  worlds: the file system is built on top of the message system,
  giving almost complete topographical independence.

- support for failure recovery. In particular, process pairs: a pair
  of processes can be started in different CPUs. One does the work,
  including checkpoints to the backup process. The backup process
  swallows the checkpoints and waits for the primary to fail. If it
  does, it takes over and continues as if it had been the primary. All
  I/O processes are built this way.

There's lots more, of course - I suspect this will become an
interesting thread anyway. It's interesting to compare Guardian and
UNIX; they're almost contemporary, but Guardian has a much more modern
design. It's a pity that Tandem, which is trying to move towards UNIX,
has not realised that their experience with Guardian could be of
-- 
Greg Lehey                       | Tel: +49-6637-1488              
LEMIS                            | Fax: +49-6637-1489
Schellnhausen 2, W-6324 Feldatal, Germany
*** NOTE ***: Headers are mangled - reply to grog%lemis@Germany.EU.net
From: hashton@twics.co.jp (HUGH ASHTON)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re:Did the 80186 exist?
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:48:48 GMT
Organization: TWICS, Tokyo, Japan

>In article <1992Jul1.021440.6514@access.digex.com> gjw@access.digex.com
(Gregor
y Watson) writes:
>>In article <1992Jun26.183126.17648@shell.shell.com> pace@fmcrunch (Stephen O.

Pace) writes:
>>>    My question is, was there a 186?  Was this a minor revision of the 8086?
>>>    Did it die a quick death when the 286 came out?  How different was the
>>>    instruction set?
>>

The 80186?  Sure did exist - Comart Computers Ltd (who I had the
honour of working for) produced two machines with it - the Comart
Workstation - a PC with built-in networking, and the Comart Quad,
a 4-user box costing 5000 UK pounds (including terminals).  Both ran
DR's Concurrent DOS.  Had the advantage of all kinds of embedded
goodies (DMA controller, etc, if I remember rightly).

We also used the 80186 on intelligent disk controller and
serial-port boards.

Any Comart or ex-Comart users out there?


--

| Hugh Ashton         | Tel:+81-53-435-3553  Fax:+81-53-435-3356        | 
| hashton@twics.co.jp | SnailMail:Crestec Inc., 676 Kasaishinden-cho,   |
| NextMail welcome    | Hamamatsu-shi 431-31, Japan                     |
+---------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
| The opinions expressed here are my own, except where otherwise stated |
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (JohnC)
Subject: Re: Cloned computers
Reply-To: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: The Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:47:32 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.175250.7607@cs.cornell.edu> chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) writes:
>I have read that the Soviet Union supported exactly 3 architectures at
>one point:  Clone of Intel 8080, Clone of DEC pdp-11, Clone of IBM 370. 

There was a BYTE article years ago about a Soviet clone of the Apple ][.  It
was called the Agat, as I recall.  Wierd, wierd machine.

-- 
John Cavallino                  |  EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu
University of Chicago Hospitals |         John_Cavallino@uchfm.bsd.uchicago.edu
Office of Facilities Management | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, MC 0953
B0 f++ c+ g++ k s++ e+ h- pv    |         Chicago, IL  60637
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum)
Subject: Re: 9 track data storage???????????????
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 23:55:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.162351.25568@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> 9125113g@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Mitch Davis) writes:
>
>I use old 1/2" for a number of uses:
>
> o I fitted my kite with new tails
> o I (just today!) roped off an area of our open-plan[tm] garden so the
>   kiddies in the neighborhood wouldn't walk all over my new seedlings
>
>Two uses I'm strongly considering:
>
> o Typing one end to the side of a train...
> o A portable braille printer.
>
>Any other uses?
>
>Mitch.

How about uses for those plastic write-enable rings? B|-) (bifocals)

Bill Marcum  bmarcum@world.std.com
From: marques@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Pascal vs C
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:14:55 GMT
Organization: Oxford University Library Automation Team

In article <BrLu6z.HzM@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>, phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson) writes:
> In article <6RHyNB1w164w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> rob.bbs@cybernet.cse.fau.edu writes:
>>> > 370's are dinosaurs
>>> Yes, but IBM don't sell those any more (apart from small dept. machines).
> 
> The last actual 370 was shipped before 1980: The architecture moved to
> 43xx and 30xx hardware.

What about the 9370 range?

> 
>>By 370 I meant the 370 architecture machines. One could even say 360
>>architecture. Would include 360, 370's 30xx and ES whatever. I may be
>>incorrect (and I'm sure if so you all will let me know :-) but I believe
>>we're looking at the same basic architecture with refinements. 
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
> New instructions that take three pages to describe are not "refinements".
> "Modifications" if a flameproof replacement: "extentions" could cause
> dispute.
> 
> phil
> 
> 
> 
>>
>>Rob Rittenhouse
> 
> 
> -- 
> |play: phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG; {ames|pyramid|vsi1}!zorch!phil                |
> |work: phil@gsi; sgi!gsi!phil            | Phil Gustafson                   |
> | "Don't believe in ads.  Don't believe in government.  Watch yourself --   |
> |  everybody is trying to screw you!"  Bill Gaines, 1922-1992               |
-- 
Jose Marques, Systems Programmer
 %INCLUDE STDDIS; /* Standard Disclaimer */
From: AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: How Come? riddle -- the answer
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:48:04 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University

In article <1992Jul19.091513.9915@msc.cornell.edu>, maynard@ept.msc.cornell.edu
(Maynard J. Handley) says:
>
>But you left out important details! How tall was Dan? Did he like
>albatross? Was he found oneday dead surrounded by water and broken glass?

Okay, maybe the wrong group for this, but is there a name for puzzles like
this (you are given a statement and have to figure out what happened using
yes/no questions) and is there a collection of them anywhere?

David Hungerford AUDMH@ASUACAD.BITNET  Opinions?  MIne, all mine!!!
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: zcookbruc@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Computers killing people? (WAS Re: 9 track data storage???)
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:01:13 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.165150.14686@news.columbia.edu>, lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> In article <1992Jul29.140116.26213@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> comrade@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Peter Cooper) writes:
>>
>>Falling VAX kills 20.
>>
>>I live in hope.
>>
>>Peter
> 
> I would prefer:
> 
> Falling VAX kills 11.
> 
> cjl

Nah:

Falling VAX kills 370

...BRU
From: thad@btr.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: DECtape (was: Worst tape drives)
Date: 30 Jul 92 10:37:55 GMT
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, Mountain View CA

In article <1992Jul28.152904.28638@alliant.com> werme@alliant.com (Ric Werme) writes:
>[...]
>1) I was at CMU from 1968-1974, and was one of the first operators for the
>   first PDP-10 (it had 5 DECtape drives and no disks) when it arrived in 1969.
>[...]

Uh, wouldn't that be the first PDP-10 on the scene at CMU and not the truly
first PDP-10?  :-)

I still have some old PDP-10 listing from early 1970, which means that I
had to be using the machines since (at least) 1969.  And I still have the
original manuals (white covers with blue lettering, which preceeded the
perfect-bound orange manual) either in a box in my garage or at my office,
and my recollection is they were dated circa 1967-68.

BTW, those old PDP-10 systems really LOOKED like computers, what with all
the lights on the memory cabinets and a "Real Console" with nice switches,
DECtape *AND* papertape!

Problem was: they used incandescent lamps for the indicators, and they would
often be burned-out, obviating their intended diagnostic purpose.  Wonder
why they didn't use LEDs?  Expense?

Thad Floryan [ thad@btr.com (OR) {decwrl, mips, fernwood}!btr!thad ]
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers