HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books we're too righteous to censor-- but would like to
Date: 28 Jan 93 05:37:35 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique


S.Courtenage@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Simon) writes:


> I once read an article by someone complaining about this kind of
> literature and saying that in general any book whose opening line gave
> the name of the main character fell into this class, e.g.

> 	"It was a dark and stormy night when Clark d'Evilmaycare
>	arrived at the glassy edifice of Crooks Bank, ..."

> We could adopt this kind of criteria quite easily, along with others
> outlawing books involving fast cars, swiss bank accounts, family
> dynasties owning vast tracks of oil-rich farm land, factories etc.

I know Simon is only passing on these words of wisdom, so I hope that he
doesn't take this as attacking *his* position.

Here are ten counter-examples:

 1. Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE

	Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel
	Aureliano Buendia was to remember that distant afternoon
	when his father took him to discover ice.

 2. Kingsley Amis -- LUCKY JIM

	'They made a silly mistake, though,' the Professor of History
	said, and his smile, as Dixon watched, gradually sank beneath
	the surface of his features at the memory.
 
 3. Robertson Davies -- FIFTH BUSINESS

	My lifelong involvement with Mrs. Dempster began at 5:58
	o'clock p.m. on the 27th of December, 1908, at which time
	I was ten years and seven months old.

 4. Lewis Carroll -- ALICE IN WONDERLAND

	Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister
	on the bank and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had
	peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures
	or conversations in it, "and what is the use of a book," thought
	Alice, "without pictures or conversations?"

 5. Peter DeVries -- SLOUCHING TOWARDS KALAMAZOO

	My old eighth-grade teacher, Miss Maggie Doubloon,
	said she was half-Spanish, half-French, and half-Irish,
	a plethora of halves not entirely unnoticed by some of
	the brighter pupils.

 6. E. M. Forster -- HOWARDS END

	One may as well begin with Helen's letters to her sister.

 7. Vladimir Nabokov -- LOLITA

	Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins.

 8. Dorothy Sayers -- GAUDY NIGHT

	Hariet Vanesat at her writing-table and stared out into
	Mecklenburg Square.

 9. Pat Conroy -- THE GREAT SANTINI

	In the Cordova Hotel, near the docks of Barcelona, fourteen
	Marine Corps fighter pilots from the aircraft carrier
	*Forrestal* were throwing an obstreperously spirited
	going away party for Lieutenant Colonel Bull Meecham, the
	executive officer of the carrier based squadron.

10. Tom Maddox -- HALO

	On a rainy morning in Seattle, Gonzales was ready for the egg.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett)
Subject: Re: Why I signed off this list
Organization: University of Rochester
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:35:57 GMT

In article <C186qo.434@fc.hp.com> daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>If someone says, "You are not doing this very well.  You can do
>better, and it is your duty to try", then you are being criticized,
>and I assert that it is the reare individual who can take the latter
>without thinking the critic has been *somewha*t rude.
>

I don't think the above is rude although I also don't think that the
"and it is your duty to try" is needed (it basically is going beyond telling
someone that they have a problem with their argument and saying that not
only do you have a problem with your argument but they're not trying
hard enough.  Which I submit no one here on the net is competent to judge
about me for example).  But your examples are still quite nice when compared
with what actually goes on in the typical discussion here which is more
like "You're an idiot for thinking this way.  Maybe you should get some
help for yourself or maybe you're just hopeless and I'm wasting my time
bothering with you."  Note that my example doesn't give any more information
than yours but is quite a bit more rude.  Also note that even my example
is mild compared to what typically goes in in RAB.

 -Bill
-- 
Bill Garrett			ARPA: garrett@cs.rochester.edu
University of Rochester		UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!garrett
Rochester  NY  14627		VOX:  (716) 275-5605
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Date: 25 Jan 1993 13:29:33 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan25.122051.25869@VFL.Paramax.COM>  
rafem@gvlf8-k.gvl.unisys.com (Ralph Marrone) writes:
> In article <1993Jan23.163706.18662@zip.eecs.umich.edu>  
stame@emunix.emich.edu (Stewart Tame) writes:
> >In article <93022.170004U19807@uicvm.uic.edu>  
<U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
> >>In article <leo.727693316@draconis>, leo@cp.tn.tudelft.nl (Leo  
Breebaart) says:
> >>
> >>>Anyway, I have a question for the Harlan experts out there: in  
the book,
> >>>Harlan mentions working on a major Hollywood movie screenplay,  
but he is
> >>>so embarrassed about what eventually became of it that he  
doesn't even
> >>>want to tell us the name of that movie. But of course I'm just  
dying
> >>>to know which movie he's talking about. Does anybody know?
> >>
> >
> >Actually the screenplay was probably _I, Robot_ which was  
serialized in
> >Asimov's SF Magazine I believe. 
> 
> I believe Ellison's _I, Robot_ screenplay surfaced as an episode of  
Outer
> Limits, an early 60's TV program.

Nope.  The I, Robot on the Outer Limits had nothing to do with
Harlan (or with the Asimov book by that title, for that matter).
It was based on an old Eando Binder story of that name, I think.

Also, I doubt that I, Robot was the script Harlan was referring to.
He was very proud of that script, and was upset that, after all
the work he did on it, it was NOT made into a movie.  That's why
he published in Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine--he wanted to show it
off.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Ancient History Novels
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 20:13:42 GMT

 mwhatt01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:

	I like reading novels about ancient history but they are
	gettin increasingly harder to find.  Here are the ones I've
	read so far


	<<< short list deleted >>>


_The Egyptian_, _The Etruscian_, and _The Roman_ by Mika Walturi  (sp?)

These were quite good, especially _The Egyptian_.  Also, wasn't it
Mailer who write two or three books about Egypt?  _Ancient Evening_ or
some such.  They were about Anknaten, the mono-theist,  and not to bad.


William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Subject: Re: INDIAN (ENGLISH) LITERATURE
Reply-To: sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad)
Organization: European Computer-Industry Research Centre, Munich
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:24:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.140349.4608@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> mmurali@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Magical_Flute) writes:
[ 	Murali Damodaran posted an exhaustive (exhausting?) list of
	"Indian Literature in English".  Why did this list so depress me?
	Because it lists true masters with the utterly forgettable and other
	such mediocrities, who just happened to have their farts published 
	in English.  Besides there are many inaccuracies, e.g. ages and many
	authors who are not Indian -- not even by birth -- who are included.
]


	>(5.) RAJA RAO, Male, (1937-....) 

This old master,  based at UT Austin, is definitely older than 56!
Probably a good 20-30 years older than that.

	>(12.) V. S. NAIPAUL, Male, (1941-....) 
	>(24.) SHIV NAIPAUL, Male

VS Naipaul is certainly a great writer, but the Naipauls are
not Indian, except by extraction.

	>(17.) NIRAD C. CHAUDHURI (1915-....)

I thought the old fogey was pushing ninety-something now.  I picked up
_Thy Hand, Great Anarch_ and was amazed at the sharpness of style and
wit.  Certainly can claim to being one of the great exponents of the 
English language alive!  

----------------------------------------------------------------

	>(6.)  NAYANTRA SAGHAL, Female (1937-....)
		:
	>(8.) SHASHI THAROOR, Male, (1956-....) 
		:
	>(14.) PICO IYER, Male, (1956-....)
		:
		:
	>(23.) SHOBA DE, Female (1945-

Gimme a break!!!!!

And in
	>III. GENERAL WRITING FROM INDIAN WRITERS
The segue from
	>(1.)  JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, Male, (1889-1964)
	>(2.)  MAHATMA M. K. GANDHI, Male, (1869-1948)
to
	>(3.)  M. J. AKBAR, Male
who writes well, and then to
	>(4.)  KULDEEP NAYAR, Male
who can't write, period, leaves me breathless!

--
Sanjiva Prasad,  Guest Magus				E-mail: sanjiva@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre		Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17					Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
8000 Muenchen 81, Germany				Res: +49 89 16 33 59
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Robert Conquest's _The Great Terror_
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:49:13 GMT

In article <14003@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1jfa2r$iv3@agate.berkeley.edu>, alpet@ocf.berkeley.edu (Alex Petrushko) writes:
>> In article <1993Jan17.205437.19471@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
># #I refer you to the well-known statistical data, that over 300 innocent
># #men and women had been executed in the U.S. over the past century.
># #For a most striking, and most uncontroversial case of a *political*
># #execution of falsely accused American anarchists, I refer you to the
># #Chicago Haymarket affair, and its tragic judicial aftermath, denounced
># #in short order as a travesty of justice by no less a pillar of law and
># #order, than Governor Altgeld and the rest of Illinois administration.

>#  Try Sacco and Vansetti (sp?) case -- it's even worse. They were
>#  executed, if I remember correctly, in a totally fabricated trial -- a
>#  product of Red Hysteria of 1920s, as well as anti-immigrant attitudes
>#  of native New Yorkers. 

>Hmmm.  I've read that recent ballistics tests indicate that at least
>one of their guns was probably the murder weapon.  Like the Rosenbergs,
>the right person may have been convicted for the wrong reasons.

Indeed, there's some evidence that Sacco did it.  Nobody's been able
to pin the slightestbit of evidence on Vanzetti.

However, both were executed without a fair trial, as were the Rosenbergs.
Roy Cohn made that quite clear in later years.  

And that is dangerous enough.

Roger


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Forcing the Spring
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:15:07 GMT

Wayne Hughes writes:

>   This week's New Yorker has a commentary on the sources of
>   some of the phrasing in Clinton's inaugural address.  "Forcing
>   the spring", as were several such turns of phrase, derived
>   from John Kennedy's inaugural address.  Although, as the 
>   New Yorker pointed out, Clinton probably owes more to
>   Chauncey Gardner than to John Kennedy.
>
>   Wayne

	Stephanopoulos says that the source for "forcing the spring"
is Father Tim Healey, who was President of Georgetown U when boy
Clinton was there.

	How about the other quote you rabbleistas? Or, are you
ignoring the Bible? It too has an interesting subtext. It was from
Paul's Letter to the Galatians: " In this season, we shall reap if we
faint not." And all you hopeful Clintonians might be interested in
looking up the rest of the quote. Hint: it's Chapter 6, verse 5.


	Keith
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
From: herb@sybase.com (Herb Lison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: CRITICISM W/ AMERICAN NOVEL FOCUS
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:52:53 GMT
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <1993Jan18.133504.7328@gw.wmich.edu> 92kmotorka@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>Can anyone think of a good AND readable critic who has written specifically
>about the American novel--most motably in the area of the American "story" and
>the development of the novel in the early years of the U.S.  This critic should
>also have something to say about characteristics that are unique to American
>literature.

It's hard to think of anyone who has written more pungently on this
subject than H. L. Mencken.  I can't recall the names of the various
essays, but there are at least a dozen or so in the collection called
"A Mencken Chrestomathy" and a number of note in another collection
of his writings for "The Smart Set" magazine.

Mencken dismisses most U.S. produced literature prior to Mark Twain
and was a champion of realism in fiction.  He was an early champion
of Dreiser.  

Even if you disagree with his opinions, they are tremendous fun to
read and force you to think critically about your own.

Herb Lison
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: garrett@cs.rochester.edu (Bill Garrett)
Subject: Re: Why I signed off this list
Organization: University of Rochester
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:39:52 GMT

In article <C17p9u.J5x@fc.hp.com> daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>I reviewed those posts.  I can see why you were frustrated, but by
>usenet standards, that discussion was downright polite.  It is a fact
>that the argument may have been pointless, but remember that you DO
>have the option of ignoring the posts of given people.

I agree and that it what I do.  I'm just pointing out that because many of the
more vocal people on RAB are the ones involved in the flaming it makes it
difficult to participate in most of the more interesting discussions.
more voacal

>I certainly grant your point that certain types of rudenesss are entirely
>counterproductive to conversation, but I am not conviced that rudeness,
>in general, is always bad, or, more accurately, that it should be the 
>primary measure by which you judge a post or a poster, and it is 
>simply a fact that most usenet groups are somewhat rude in nature.

This may be but I just want to note that this rudeness in nature is
apparently isolating a lot of people (judging from the mail I've
received) and results in a somewhat closed environment, which I do
not think is desirable.

To you and Mr. McCarthy's point that rude attacks often have valid
criticism hidden within them, I totally agree.  I just don't have
the time, the patience, or any great desire to accept valid
criticism from people who are attacking me at the same time.  There
are much better ways of getting your criticism across, and in general
I find criticism better received when given in a polite manner (of course
your mileage may vary).

 -Bill



-- 
Bill Garrett			ARPA: garrett@cs.rochester.edu
University of Rochester		UUCP: {decvax,rutgers}!rochester!garrett
Rochester  NY  14627		VOX:  (716) 275-5605
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken)
Subject: Re: Biggest Disappointments? (was worst novel ever)
Keywords: something new?
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:45:03 GMT

tvorst@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tommy Che Vorst) writes:
>I would also like to propose a (new?) thread, along the same lines:  What
>are some of the most pleasant surprises you've had?

_The Women's Room_ by Marilyn French.  I read this once out of sheer
desperation when there was nothing else to read, fully expecting it to
be empty trash.  Intellectuals don't read bestsellers, right?  To my
surprise, I found this novel to be full of insights about lost
opportunities and wasted talents in American's women's lives.  I
recognized a lot of people I know in it.  I think this book is as
meaningful a social commentary as Lessing or Updike or Cheever, all of
whom have received more critical praise.  [Okay, so the sex scenes are
stupid.  Maybe an editor added them. {-| ]
-- 
Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
Look if you like, but you will have to leap.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: bus2@quads.uchicago.edu (cass roberts buscher)
Subject: Publishing
Reply-To: bus2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:37:30 GMT

I am just wondering if anybody knows about what process is necessary to see about getting a manuscript published.  I would appreciate any infromation
	Thank you
	Cass Buscher
	bus2@midway.uchicago.edu
From: rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ron Hogan on Criticism
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:03:54 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald) writes:

I addressed most of this before, but this is one other point I felt
needed some attention, at least in passing;

>I realize that film studies is plagued by a legion of barbarians at the gate,
>by a crowd comprised of a large proportion of dilettantes and not a few able
>amateurs.  So I have to wonder how much the statement you made was primarily
>prompted by the desire to protect your discipline.

I can't say as I have a vital connection to my discipline, at least in terms
of being desirous of protecting it against criticism.  I mean, I don't 
especially feel that film studies *needs* to be legitimated in order to be
part of the traditional academic canon, nor do I really feel that the
legitimation of my personal choice of study depends upon the legitimation
of film studies as an acceptable discipline.

Granted, the existence of a film studies department provides me with the
opportunity to study film in greater depth, which I'm grateful for.  But
as I mentioned in my other followup, the type of work I do with film is
not in the area of perpetuating the legitimation (is that a word?) of film
as a subject of study because of its great artistic potential and accomplish-
ments.  What I do in my studies is, in my eyes, more of an interdisciplinarian
endeavor.  The fact that I have positioned myself within a film studies
department allows me a greater liberty to pursue those interdisciplinary
interests with more reference to film than might be possible in an English
of History department, but I don't feel that my position has anything to
do with a validation of my study.

It certainly makes it easier, though.

Ron Hogan
"there isn't any film culture...just an awful lot of films"
--Orson Welles

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Maya Angelou inaugural poem
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:51:00 GMT

In article <C178qM.MJF@olsen.ch>, lindy@olsen.ch (Lindy Foster) writes...
>I found Maya Angelou's inaugural poem both moving and beautiful.  Does
>anyone know where I can get a copy of the text?  Thanks,
> 
>			*lindy*
> 
>lindy@olsen.ch


Since it looks like you're in Switzerland, you can get a copy of Thursday's
Herald Trib - it is reproduced on page 3.


Dave
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26427 rec.arts.poems:14042
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.poems
Subject: New prize
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:05:18 GMT
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University

$25 for the best poem celebrating Clinton's inauguration in the style
of McGonagle.  Contest closes Friday Feb 4 at midnight PST.  Entries
should both be posted and emailed to me.  You keep the copyright.
Members of my family are eligible.

Lay it on thick.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: Vanity Fair, or the long sojourn
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:33:56 GMT

I read the book so long ago, I remember little except for a _Gestalt_
impression of the delightful main character (Becky?), but one bit
has always stood out in my mind: the description of a wealthy man's
wife as "The Bosom."  As in: a "Bosom" is something such a man needs
to have at his side in a formal gathering, for the display of jewelry,
and thus the display of his wealth.  Nice satirical bit.

							--Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link)
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:36:42 GMT

Indeed, Ellison is one of my favourite authors.  Having busied myself in
the early 70's with struggling to become an adult (still haven't
succeeded), bearing and raising two daughters and trying to understand
how someone at the age of 24 could be so darn tired... I now rely on
Ellison to remind me of what actually happened.  His books on
television: "The Glass Teat" and "The Other Glass Teat" were revelations
to me when I read them the first time some years ago.  I had not seen
some of the shows he reviews, but some I had seen he recalls with
altogether too much clarity.

I may not always share his views, but I always enjoy reading them.

Susanna

And for a lighter side of Ellison I recommend his "Partners in Wonder" a
collection of collaberations, including some interesting cartoons about
King Kong, scripted by him and drawn by William Rotsler.
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison questions
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:03:00 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: gondolin.pubs.stratus.com

In article <lmbsfpINNpql@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> lsc@chryse.Eng.Sun.COM  
(Lisa S Chabot) writes:
> 
> Yeah, well, Underwood Miller is mildly obscure--the kind of
> publisher you're not likely to find in the chains.  

Depends upon the chain. There are some Underwood Miller books
at the local Borders.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Date: 20 Jan 93 21:15:34 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1993Jan15.050949.16704@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
> In article <13925@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #If free markets are such an effective strategy for promoting racism,
# #why bother to have the government do the liberal thing and FORCE
# #people to discriminate?
# 
# I did not say free markets promote racism. My point was that they don't
# cure it.
# 
# Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution

Neither do government laws, they merely force racists to hide their
racism.

Perhaps instead of the liberal obssession with forcing people to
do things THE ONE TRUE WAY, we would be better off trying to
end racism by education and persuasion?


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"When freedom destroys order, order will destroy freedom." -- Eric Hoffer
Not a goal, just a statement of reality.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary g link)
Subject: Re: "Harlan Ellison's Watching" by Harlan Ellison
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:31:36 GMT


*****Ahem*** Joe, I suppose that now is not the time to mention that my
trip to used-book mecca here in Bloomington netted me a copy of
"Starcrossed" and "Angry Candy".

If you really mean it about the debt...I can be enticed to look for the
'Glass Teat' books for you.

*sinister laugh*

You may not be able to afford my....price.

(swish...crack!)

Susanna of the Mounties
(I have the horse and the black leather boots already)

ObBook: I bought a lot of them today...Wodehouse, Benson, Hervey Allen.