HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: Re: objects and closures
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:16:20 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

mario@cs.man.ac.uk (Mario Wolczko) writes:
>> You could always use a language which has closure(goto) and lets you
>> the _user_ add the syntax necessary to represent object(while) when
>> and if they want it. 
> Sounds nice -- but can it be done efficiently (both in space and speed
> of method dispatch)?  Anyone know of any successful examples?

Paul Philbrow here did that a few years ago in PS-algol, which makes
closures considerably more useful by allowing them to be persistent.  The
syntax was horrifying (PS-algol is not exactly readable at the best of
times, and Paul's extensions were the stuff of nightmare) but the
performance on method dispatch for persistent objects far outclassed any
OODB of the time, and the space overheads were tiny (though PS-algol's
space management for persistent closures could be better).  I am not sure
if this was published - Paul?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: frank5@hertz.njit.edu (Frank D. Greco)
Newsgroups: comp.object
Subject: OOD/A Instructor Suggestions?
Date: 6 Nov 92 05:13:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.
Originator: frank5@hertz.njit.edu

Does anyone have any good recommendations for OOD/A instructor-led
courses?  I am looking for a good instructor and materials for
a short course in the near term (mid Nov).

Thanks all,

Frank G.
(please respond to fgreco@mercury.com)
-- 
Frank D. Greco
Crossroads Technologies, Inc.       ARPA: frank5@mars.njit.edu
P.O. Box 530                        VOICE: (201)-754-7820
Fanwood, New Jersey 07023
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: sakkinen@jyu.fi (Markku Sakkinen)
Subject: Re: OO COBOL
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:32:27 GMT

In article <BxK7Bo.KpC.1@cs.cmu.edu> hopkins@cs.cmu.edu (Don Hopkins) writes:
>It's called "ADD ONE TO COBOL".

Well, we have seen this joke a hundred times by now.
I'm no knowledgeable in Cobol myself, but much more appropriate
would be something like
"Add classes to Cobol" or "Cobol with Object Division".

>Please put some deep thought into why you would want to use such a
>thing, then don't.  

OO additions have been rather successfully made even to lower-level
languages than Cobol (at least C).  If it is important to let all those
C programmers move gradually over to more or less OOP without quitting
their old language abruptly, why should the same convenience be
denied to the much larger number of Cobol programmers?
"Deep thought" indeed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Markku Sakkinen (sakkinen@jytko.jyu.fi)
       SAKKINEN@FINJYU.bitnet (alternative network address)
Department of Computer Science and Information Systems
University of Jyvaskyla (a's with umlauts)
PL 35
SF-40351 Jyvaskyla (umlauts again)
Finland
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.object
From: "Ronald C. Schultz" <p00058@psilink.com>
Subject: Cost Estimating Using Function Points
Organization: Berard Software Engineering, Inc.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:12:40 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

In trying to gather information about the estimating of costs for OO 
development, many vendors have stated that "function points" are their 
most successful cost estimator.  I find this interesting in that 
function points do not, in any way, appear "object-oriented".  Can 
anyone supply me pointers, references, or examples as to how function 
points are useful in cost estimating OO development, and what kinds of 
modifications to function points are necessary in order to get them to 
work in an OO environment?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Schultz 
Berard Software Engineering, Inc.
Columbus, Ohio Office                   Headquarters
5634 Claire Court                       101 Lakeforest Blvd.
Dublin, Ohio 43017-2440                 Gaithersburg, Md.  20877
(614) 798-0295 Phone                    (301) 417-9884 Phone
(614) 798-0296 FAX                      (301) 417-0021 FAX
ron@bse.com                             info@bse.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
From: tcg@mercurio.fct.unl.pt (Teresa Cristina Goncalves)
Subject: Documentation about Eiffel
Organization: Universidade Nova de Lisboa, PORTUGAL
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:43:16 GMT


Hello!
I'm working in an ESPRIT project, and we are going to use the Eiffel Language. Could anyone give me some information about the existing (good) books about Eiffel?

Thanks in advance,
	Teresa Goncalves

--
Teresa Cristina Goncalves	  | BITNET/Internet: tcg@fct.unl.pt
Universidade Nova de Lisboa	  |            UUCP: tcg@unl.uucp
FCT - Dpto. de Informatica        | Fax:   (+351) (1) 295-5641
2825 Monte Caparica, PORTUGAL     | Phone: (+351) (1) 295-4464, Ext:1560
From: wr@polly.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Wilfried Rupflin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
Subject: ISE Eiffel rel. 3  --  alternatives?
Followup-To: comp.object, comp.lang.misc
Date: 12 Nov 1992 13:52:14 GMT
Organization: CS Department, Dortmund University, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: polly


Does anybody know whether in the new release of ISE Eiffel will
be significant improvements with respect to installation in a
typical workstation environment?

The current release (2.3) requires all Eiffel users to have
*write* access to the *installation* directory! This is not
only nonsense because of security aspects but simply
impossible in an environment where software partitions of
file servers are mounted read-only by their clients.

Will it make sense to wait for the new release
(announced for Sept. 30th)?


Wilfried Rupflin



PS for the impatient:

A few weeks ago a got hands on a *pre*release of the Mjolner
environment for the new (and very powerful) BETA language
for SPARC (final versions for Sun-3, HP 9000, Apollo 3000, and MAC
have been available for some time already). I must say that
I am impressed of the high quality of the implementation.
(Further information: mjolner@mjolner.dk.)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
From: keck@castor.trl.OZ.AU (Brian Keck)
Subject: solaris 2
Organization: Telecom Research Labs,Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:43:34 GMT

Does anyone know whether Eiffel will run, or when it will run,
under Solaris 2.x ?  The new desktop sparcs (classic & LX) 
require Solaris 2.1.

Thanks
Brian Keck

b.keck@trl.oz.au, phone +61 3 253 6407, fax +61 3 253 6362 
Network Services & Signalling, Telecom Research Laboratories
770 Blackburn Rd, Clayton Victoria 3168, Australia
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
From: behrenss@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Soenke Behrens)
Subject: FAQ ... Eiffel lang description?
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 07:34:46 GMT

Foo,

apologies for posting a FAQ, but I waited for quite a while and didn't see
"answers to FAQ" coming up, and they were not archived here, either. *shrug*

So, question: Where can one get information about the Eiffel language suitable
to help in writing a compiler? Are there:
- yacc/lex grammars?
- test suites?
- already-built free compilers?

Etc.

Yours

Soenke
From: shunter@ssdc.UUCP (Steve Hunter)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
Subject: Eiffel Programmers Wanted
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:34:48 GMT
Organization: Sterling Software IMD, Vienna, Va.


Interested in hiring Eiffel programmers for Northern Va.
location. Will consider part-time and consultants. If 
interested please e-mail or send fax.


Steve Hunter
Sterling Software
8000 Towers Crescent Drive
Suite 1120
Vienna, Va 22182
Fax 703-821-1485
From: quick@ucsb.edu (Rutland)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
Subject: Eiffel Help
Summary: Need help quick
Keywords: Eiffel FAQ Help Beginner
Date: 12 Nov 92 05:38:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucsbcsl.6650
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara



Hello,

I am looking for the FAQ for this newsgroup.  I have
an assignment due Sunday and I am having trouble 
finding good documentation.  Please send help quickly.

Thank you,

Tim Rutland
quick@cs.ucsb.edu
From: ambuj@ucsb.edu (Singh)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
Subject: repeated inheritance and renaming
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:47:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara


I have the following question regarding repeated 
inheritance and renaming in Eiffel.

Suppose I have the following classes:

			class R
			feature
  			  x:integer;
  			  f is do
    			    x := x+1;
  			  end;
			end


class A			class B			class C
inherit			inherit			inherit 
  R redefine f;		  R rename x as xB	  R
feature			end			end
  f is do
    x := x + 2;
  end;
end

			class S
			inherit 
  			  A rename f as fA;
  			  B rename f as fB;
  			  C;
			feature
  			  Create is
    			    do
      			      fB;
      			      io.putint(xB); io.new_line;
    			    end;
			end

Assume that class S is the ``root'' class of the system.
Upon activation of S.create,
I would have expected procedure fB to update xB and
the subsequent print statement to print 1.
However, it seems that fB updates x instead of xB
and 0 is the value printed.
I also find that if S does not inherit from A then the
expected happens and 1 gets printed.
What am I missing?  Is this a problem with the installation
of Eiffel?

Thanks.

Ambuj Singh
Dept. of Computer Science
University of California
Santa Barbara, CA 93106
ambuj@cs.ucsb.edu
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
From: dgenr8@leland.Stanford.EDU (Tom Harding)
Subject: Re: Eiffel on Mac OS ?
Organization: Stanford University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 08:39:42 GMT


In article <1364@sevax1.cse.canon.co.jp> atinoue@sevax1.cse.canon.co.jp (Atsushi Inoue) writes:

>Does anybody know if Eiffel works on native Mac OS?
>(not on AU/X)

I'll do you one better: could somebody please provide a list of all systems
currently supported by Eiffel?  I haven't been able to locate a licensed copy
here and I'd like to know where to look.  I just read the language manual
and I've got to try this thing out!

   -T
From: nhoar@nyx.cs.du.edu (Nigel Hoar)
Subject: Eiffel archive
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 01:25:55 GMT


I am a final year undergraduate student from England. For my final year
project I am undertaking to write a pc based compiler for Eiffel. I am
posting to enquire if anyone knows of any Eiffel archive situated on the
internet where I might find relevent documents,papers or journals which
might aid my research. I would also be most interested to contact anyone
who has done previous research/work in this field. 

Thankyou very much for your time and I sincerely hope someone can help

Nigel Hoar (Mr.)

n.hoar@shef.ac.uk
ac3nh@sunc.shef.ac.uk
From: atinoue@sevax1.cse.canon.co.jp (Atsushi Inoue)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.eiffel
Subject: Eiffel on Mac OS ?
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:58:17 GMT
Reply-To: atinoue@sevax1.cse.canon.co.jp (Atsushi Inoue)
Organization: System Engineering Center.

Hello!

Does anybody know if Eiffel works on native Mac OS?
(not on AU/X)

Please reply me by e-mail

Thaks in Advance.

Atsushi Inoue 

atinoue@cse.canon.co.jp
From: anderson_r@rutile.enet.dec.com (Rob Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: on-line tutorial
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:30:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: decuk.1992Nov8.153144.7406
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Hi 
	Can anyone tell me where I can find an on-line forth tutorial ? My local 
book shop has NO books on forth - ... C, C++, COBOL, >!!!< , FORTRAN ...

	thanks 
		rob.
From: comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: No CONSTANT in eforth??
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:26:06 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

I have just started to look at eforth and it does not appear to know about
CONSTANT.  Obviously one can use VARIABLE but VARNAME @ appears to me less
efficient than CONNAME when the thing is not going to change.  Can anyone
tell me if I am overlooking something?

jj

John Thayer Jensen                      64 9 373 7599 ext. 7543
Commerce Computer Services              64 9 373 7437 (FAX)
Auckland University                     jt.jensen@aukuni.ac.nz
Private Bag 92019
AUCKLAND
New Zealand
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Subject: OPS5-like, forward-chaining, Rete-type packages in Forth ?
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:51:20 GMT

Well I've been interested in doing something like this. Right now I am
working on a backward chaining system. Odette may have done something like
this in FORTH and I know that Merritt has done it in Prolog. Another source
may be Mitch Bradley.

regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Subject: Re: How to do objects, locals, multitasking in Forth?
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 06:38:50 GMT

Indeed there is. And a fine book too. It is only about 60 pages long @ $25
and although the material is dense, ( lots of ideas ) it is quite readable. I
reccommend it.
regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
From: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu (Dick and Jill Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth books
Date: 10 Nov 1992 09:50:48 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Greg Holdren (gregh@hprnls1c.rose.hp.com) asks:
> Just checked in to check out the world of Forth. Here is a real
> basic question: What's a good entry level book on the language?
 
At MMS, our starter Forth book recommendations, in this order, are:
 
1. The User Manual that came with your Forth, IF it is a well-supported 
one.  MMSFORTH comes with a fine and fitting manual of about 400 large 
pages, with references to many examples on the disk.  Other good versions 
offer similar, superior books for their own systems.
 
2. "FORTH: A TEXT AND REFERENCE", by Kelly and Spies.  Very readable, 
covers beginner level through relatively advanced, including Assembler and 
8087 math coprocessor details, particularly appropriate to IBM PC and 
MMSFORTH, but very strong for general use as well.  The only college-level 
textbook, complete with exercises and answers.
 
3. "STARTING FORTH", by Leo Brodie.  Still the most popular, and a very 
good one as well.
 
4. "THINKING FORTH", by Leo Brodie, is a top-notch book on strategy, and 
always was our top recommendation for the SECOND book, after you bought a 
textbook to learn the Forth words.  This one teaches you which ones to 
select when, how to hone your habits for better Forth (and other) 
programming, etc.  You can't buy it new anymore, but DO ask at your 
library, etc.
 
MMS sells these Forth books (except for the last one) and many others.  
Please phone, write or E-mail for more information.
 
BTW, MMSFORTH and other well-supported Forths also include free phone tips, 
offered at reasonable hours.
 
--Dick Miller
 
A. Richard & Jill A. Miller            | Miller Microcomputer Services |
InterNet: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu       | 61 Lake Shore Road            |
Voice: 508/653-6136, 9am-9pm EasternTZ | Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA    | 
                 MMSFORTH: The cure for the common code.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: jax@well.sf.ca.us (Jack J. Woehr)
Subject: Re: Forth Compiler for 87c198 wanted.
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 05:06:13 GMT

In <int452w.721097153@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> int452w@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Michael R. Geddes) writes:

>Does anyone know if a forth  for the 87c198 (intel I think) exists? 

	Mike, my company sells 80196 boards with Forth in external ROM.

	FORTH, Inc. sells chipFORTH which is probably more what you had
in mind.

	FORTH, Inc. is 1-800-55-FORTH.
	Vesta (my company) is 303-422-8088
	We have a Forth-oriented BBS at (303) 278-0364.
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Files on-line
Date: 10 Nov 92 11:44:26 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 1,  Topic 3
Message 171       Mon Nov 09, 1992
D.RUFFER [Dennis]            at 22:20 EST

[ If you would like a copy of any of these files via email, send email
  to 'fneas@willett.pgh.pa.us'.  Binary files are UUencoded and split
  before mailing.  In the body of your message, include the lines:
		  send Name-of-file-you-want
		  path Your-Internet-relative-email-path
Note:	each file you want must have its own 'send' command.
	you may have more than one send command per message.
	you need only one path command per message.
	the path in the path command _MUST_ be Internet-relative.
	    Despite appearances, user@host.uucp and user@host.bitnet are
	    _not_ Internet relative paths.  See your sysadmin if you need help.
]
 
>>> New Files <<<

  No. File Name      Type Address       YYMMDD    Bytes Accesses Lib
 2678 BBURN-4.ARC     X   RUSSELL.H      921109    9600      1     3
  Desc: polyFORTH 8051 Assembler

Source and documentation screens corresponding to the 8051 assembler
 described in the november/december 1992 issue of FORTH DIMENSIONS,
 in the column ON THE BACK BURNER No. 4 by Russell L. Harris

Keywords: 8051, ASSEMBLER, POLYFORTH, BACK BURNER, SOURCE

 2677 MULTIDEM.ZIP    X   B.RODRIGUEZ2  921107     1408      1     3
  Desc: multitasking demo code from TCJ #58

This is the example code for "Forth Multitasking in a Nutshell",
 from The Computer Journal #58.  This code is written for F83 for the
 IBM PC, and the F83 multitasker, available on GEnie as ???.

Keywords: multitasking, F83, multiprocessing,The Computer Journal, TCJ #58

 2676 IMAGE.ZIP       X   B.RODRIGUEZ2  921105     8576      1     3
  Desc: metacompiler from FD XIV:3

This is the source code for "Principles of Metacompilation", in
 Forth Dimensions XIV:3 (Sep-Oct '92) and succeeding issues.
 IMAGE.SCR contains screens 64-89; IMAGE.DOW has the corresponding
 shadow screens.  To be usable "as is", this file requires Charles
 Curley's real-Forth for the IBM PC, and my Super8 Forth source
 code...neither of which I am at liberty to distribute.
 This file is placed in the public domain for free and unrestricted
 use, commercial or otherwise, as long as my authorship is credited.

Keywords: metacompiler, cross-compiler, target compiler,FD, Forth Dimensions,
image compil



-----
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From: uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: No CONSTANT in eforth??
Date: 10 Nov 1992 10:07:18 +0100
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Kiel, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: minnie.informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de

In <1992Nov8.232606.16423@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> comjohn@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. John T Jensen) writes:

>I have just started to look at eforth and it does not appear to know about
>CONSTANT.  

Yes that's right. Even worse, the kernel does no contain DOES>, so you are
NOT able to define CONSTANT as usual:

: CONSTANT ( x -- )  CREATE , DOES> ( -- x )  @ ;

Also there is no VOCABULARY and its supporting words, although the kernel is
prepared for the ONLY/ALSO vocabulary concept.


[There should been an extension file, which containes these among other
things. Any references?]

How can anyone be productive with eFORTH without these features?!

Just wondering,
                Ulrich

P.S.  I added the above features to eforth a while a go. 
I don't have the file at hand in the moment, so I will post it later.


-- 
Ulrich Hoffmann                  email: uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de  
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Kiel        Tel: +49 431 560426 
Preusserstr 1-9, D-2300 Kiel 1, Germany            Fax: +49 431 566143
From: bs764@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Fred H Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: asterix.inescn.pt FTP site useable?
Date: 5 Nov 1992 13:47:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I had 4 Email responses to my post from people who had used
asterix successfully.  I have since found that I can access it
from a friend's account on another machine so the problem is
indeedon my end.  Now if we just had a guru on this little machine.
Fred  preferred address --> fred%jwh@vx.cis.umn.edu

-- 
Fred Olson    fred%jwh@vx.acs.umn.edu
1221 Russell Av N
Minneapolis, MN 55411
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Feedback to the Forth Interest Group
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:01:36 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 1,  Topic 2
Message 185       Fri Nov 06, 1992
B.DUNN5 [Brian]              at 01:09 EST
 
Nifty plastic cover on the lastest Forth Dimensions...
-----
This message came from GEnie via willett.  You *cannot* reply to the author
using e-mail.  Please post a follow-up article, or use any instructions
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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: PYGMY Forth
Date: 9 Nov 92 11:58:12 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 7,  Topic 22
Message 120       Sun Nov 08, 1992
ELLIOTT.C                    at 08:49 EST
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board - USR 16.8K Dual Standard
 (416) 629-7000
 Date: 11-06-92 (21:21)
   To: FRANK SERGEANT
 From: IAN WATTERS
 Subj: PYGMY FORTH
 FS>>  ** Pygmy Forth version 1.4 has now been released **

 Thanks for the disk, Frank.  I've been working with it <g>


   Screen 175 needs HEX at the start.

   Using headerless constants crashes the metacompiler at the end
 of its work.  Cure: redefine CONSTANT in the metacompiler.

   I bumped into that one when changing .S to :

 CODE PICK  ( +N -- Nth-item )  ( 0-based: 0 PICK = DUP etc )
   BX BX ADD,  SP BX ADD,  SS: 0 [BX] BX MOV,  NXT,  END-CODE

 | 8 CONSTANT SM  ( "Show Me" max number of stack items )

 : .S  ( -) ." << " DEPTH  DUP 0< ABORT"  underflow "
    ?DUP IF  SM OVER U< IF  ." +" SM - U. ." < " SM  THEN
    FOR  I PICK .  NEXT  THEN  ." >>" ;

   The CR in QUIT is then replaced by a DEFER'd word STATUS,
   vectored to .S CR, to show the stack after each line.

   Use DECIMAL not 10 BASE ! in several places.

   Something I've been meaning to ask... why does INTERPRET take
   arguments? Get (LOAD to set up >IN instead and read that?


 A disk will be in the post to you, sooner or later, with
 assorted suggestions and goodies.  Say around Christmas?  <g>

   //\/\/


  * OLX 2.2 * The Devil made me steal that tagline
 ---
  * O.L.E.F. BBS.  London UK. +44-81-882-9808
  * PostLink(tm) v1.01  OLEF (#181) : RelayNet (tm).



-----
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth