HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:23:51 GMT

In article <1gm4ejINNn39@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:
>>
>>Leslie Gelb (or Anthony Lewis, I forget which) seemed to believe that
>>it does.  Governments in industrial states cannot support themselves
>>in the long-term by military force alone.  They need popular support
>>(or at least popular apathy) to maintain power.
>
>It is extremely easy for a totalitarian nation to maintain popular apathy.
>You simply don't tell people anything.  Then they don't know what they are
>supposed to revolt against.  Of course you have to say _something_ to them.
>Tractor production is up by 300%!  The capitalist imperialists are killing
>Somalian freedom fighters!  The Bosnian offensive has been repulsed!
>Serbian soldiers were raped by Bosnian women...the criminal Bosnians have
>been executed!

I'd agree, but Serbia/Yugoslavia is no longer a totalitarian regime.
There is popular dissent in Belgrade, and in fact real opposition to
this war.  The Powers that Be in Yugoslavia, unfortunately, are in a
better position at the moment.  I was hoping to tip the balance
the other way, 'sall.

>
>>It was a Communist insurrection, but was that it's primary
>>characteristic?  I'd argue that it was primarily a war of
>>independence.  Certainly, it was not southward expansion by Communist
>>China, considering the historic animosity between the two nations.
>
>I did not call it a communist insurrection merely because the government at
>the end was communist.  The insurrection itself was communist.  The
>mid-level leadership was trained in communist doctrine and methods, often in
>China or the USSR.  The weapons were imported from communist countries.  The
>political tactics were similar to those used by the revolution in China, by
>partisans in Yugoslavia, by guerrillas in Zimbabwe, and by the communist
>rebellion in Zaire.  In all these places the doctrine that was spread to the
>peasants was communist.  In all these places the method of spreading the
>doctrine was to shoot people who expressed disagreement, or who were likely
>to do so.

Perhaps.  Tactics generally are studied and disseminated.  That's what
military colleges are for, after all.  What you're describing is
perhaps a model for rebellion as much as anything else.  Further, to
kill those who may disagree with you has been true since long before
the Romans.  I've argued that a lot of these insurrections may have
gone over to Communism because they were anti-America primarily, and
Communism was a handy ideology to have when you're anti-American.
(The Iranian Revolution provided perhaps another model of
anti-American ideology.)



--
The insane fear of socialism throws the bourgeois headlong into the
arms of despotism.
			-- Tocqueville, 1852
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C Woods)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:06:19 GMT
Organization: School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, UCLA

In article <1ggi67INNhog@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:
[...]
}almost never going to be the case.  So what is the use of the UN
}peacekeeping missions?  Propaganda of course.  The governments who send them
}like to be seen "keeping the peace" while incurring relatively little risk
}for doing so.  



Except of course to the poor infantryman that they stick out there.
-- 
-----
Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASNET; 2567 BH;LA CA 90024; (310)-825-8614
UUCP: ...{ibmsupt,ncar!cepu}!ollie}!scw  Internet:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: powers@xerox.com (Michael Powers)
Subject: Re: Survival of the fittest...
Reply-To: powers@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Palo Alto, CA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:10:45 GMT

In article @byu.edu, jensen@baloo.ee.byu.edu (Curtis Jensen) writes:
>Are we really HELPING these people, or are we just prolonging their
>suffering and starvation?  Just GIVING these people food will
>cause the somalians to do what they do best ... make MORE starving children.

This is blatant racism Mr. Jensen.

>Lets get the HELL out of there and let the population decrease
>naturally to the point that the land can support them. 

That "population" is made up of human beings who love and think and fear, not
a group of yeast cells. I for one would rather not use Darwinian theory to 
guide my ethics in regard to people of other races, religions, or cultures.
 
>Between the
>meddling of the U.S. government and the Peace Corps, I'm suprized that
>this world hasnt gone completely to hell!  Somalia is not America!  We
>shouldn't try to make it a little America ... and the same goes for
>Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Iraq, Phillipines, Germany, etc....

Yes, the US does seem to like to force its ideology at the drop of a hat. 

Michael


Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Somalia (It's about Germany: someone's ideas)
Date: 11 Dec 1992 13:25:10 -0500
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: cathy.na.cs.yale.edu

ianl@spider.co.uk (Ian Lartey) writes:
>In article <1g5j82INN7v8@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>>Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Onno Meyer) writes:
>>>Well, first they called for our troops (Iraq), then they thougth we'd
>>>all turn nazi, and now they do _both_.
>>
>>Isn't it amazing how after three racial murders, 
>
>What's the loss of a few (insert calculated value of life ans suffering)
>(insert 'ethnic' group). Is this what you mean ?

Not at all.  Those who attacked the foreigners should be (and are being,
from what I hear) tracked down and prosecuted.

>>and several (?) small
>>street demonstrations by fringe groups, the media proclaims that Germany has
>>a problem with neo-Nazis?
>
>I'd say one neo-Nazi (or any ???-Nazi) was a problem, wouldn't you.

We have more than one neo-Nazi in this country.  You probably have a few in
Britain.  Most of the time these people don't even do anything illegal, so
they are not an immediate practical problem.  They are certainly not a
problem for the country as a whole.

From what I hear, in Germany the same element is larger and has started
committing crimes.  If you want to call this a "problem for Germany", fine.
But it is mainly a phenomenon to be dealt with by the police; it is not a
strong political movement.

>>I mean, to hear some of the language, you would think it was 1929 and Hitler
>>had just received the votes of 20% of the entire population.
>
>He had to start somewhere. How far should he have been allowed to go 
>before he was stopped. (World War II by your reckoning)

Hitler did not start by beating up foreigners.  His approach was to win
public opinion first.  Speeches, mass gatherings, and propaganda were his
tools.  The killing of "undesirables" came later, after he already had a
substantial power base.  Indeed, it mostly took place after he had absolute
power.  When he used force in the period before he had absolute power, it
was mainly to destroy political opponents.

>If you worry about the world now you'll never be shocked.

No, you will be shocked by something you did not understand, something real
which appeared while you were off worrying about a phantasm.

--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
 "Education:  That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the 
	foolish their lack of understanding."
		-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:09:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.155253.3292@spectrum.xerox.com>, kirby@xerox (Mike Kirby) writes:
>How about this:
>
>If I were the praying type, I would prefer to pray that anyone who places our
>forces in danger are neutralized as quickly as possible to discourage others from
>taking similar action.
>
>Is that any better?

It's a bit better since it doesn't contain "meatballs".  But in the
actual substance it isn't really any different.

You speak of "our forces".  To use that expression, your forces are
going into a foreign country as intruders, supposedly to restore some
order there.  It is only natural to expect some hostility.  If you
shoot everyone who shows any signs of hostility towards you, the
intruders, you will be the one causing the violence.

It shouldn't be some kind of a "mine is bigger than yours" game, or
game of authority.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:52:13 GMT

In article <Bz9rux.E94@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Brad Green) write
s:
>And on top of that, I've heard and seen plenty of troops families who believe
>this is a great way to really show the reason behind Christmas.  We have been
>asked to send water supply guardsmen to Restore Hope, but only on a vlounteer
>basis.  They only needed 20 people, and they had a stampede to sign up.

This may not be totally due to the "Christmas spirit". The members of the
military are seeing large cutbacks in military personel. Those who do not have
combat experience will not find it easy to stay in. If they did not get to go
to DS, Somalia becomes the next best place to get the experience that they will
need to stay in and advance.
-- 
If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:37:59 GMT

meyer@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Meyer) writes:

>The warning shots were at the airport, not at the beach where the lights were.
>Actually, I think a few warning shots at the beach would have been quite 
>appropriate, given the situation.  (Into the beach, not into the air, though.)

Yeah, but warning shots have to land somewhere.  In that case,
shooting over the heads of the reporters towards the airport and
downtown Mogadishu would be a Bad Thing (TM).  When you fire warning
shots you want them to either end up somewhere where people aren't or
you want them to strike some inanimate barrier.

Firing straight up isn't a good idea, either.  Watch your local news
for reports of injuries and damage on New Years Day because people
indiscriminantly fire into the air at midnight.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
From: walker@superboy.jsc.nasa.gov (Cybernetic Samurai)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Reply-To: walker@superboy.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Johnson Space Center
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:14:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.000626.25331@ida.liu.se>, e91petmo@odalix.ida.liu.se (Peter /\/\odin) writes:
|> dnm9@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (David Neal Messina) writes:
|> 
|> > ...Christmas (that's a God-fearing Christian holiday...
|> 
|> No, Christmas has nothing to do with religion any more. It's about
|> overdecorating, buying a lot of stuff, watching specials on TV,
|> etc etc etc. Am I being cynical? Go figure!
|> 

It is not even a CHRISTIAN holiday.  Christmans was made to coincide
with the pagan holiday of the winter solstice.  The pagan holiday
involved decorating trees with candles and exchanging gifts.  This was
all fabricated as a christian holiday by the Catholic Church to get more
paggans to convert to christianity.

Now I am an agnostic with athiest tendencies, but it seems to me that if
GOD were to make an apperance what he would see  is a lot of christians
celebrating a PAGAN holiday.

oh well, not on the subject but mu .02 worth.


-- 
Doug                   

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can 
do for your country.  - JFK
From: wkmpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (W. Keith McManus)
Subject: Re: CNN / All Reporters
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:52:06 GMT

In article <Bz3nKM.6wo@encore.com>, csmith@wizard.Berkeley.EDU (Cheryl
Smith) wrote:


> How would you look blinded by lights when you expected to be coming
> ashore on a dark beach.  The reporters are lucky they weren't shot
> by some Marine thinking they were being attacked. 

The military  knew the press was on the beach. Their planning should
have considered a night landing would require that the press waiting would
need additional lighting to document it. If the military had used some
public service officers to organize the coverage bothsides would not
have had to go through looking so stupid.   


W. Keith McManus
=================================================
Rochester Institute of Technology
Applied Photography Department - Photojournalism
Rochester, New York

=================================================
InterNet: wkmpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
     AOL: KeithRIT
=================================================
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
From: Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (Onno Meyer)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: University of Oldenburg, Germany
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:06:01 GMT

yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:


>Isn't it amazing how after three racial murders, and several (?) small
>street demonstrations by fringe groups, the media proclaims that Germany has
>a problem with neo-Nazis?

Seventeen murders _this year_, and a lot of injuries. We have a problem,
but we're not in danger of being taken over by this madmen.

>I mean, to hear some of the language, you would think it was 1929 and Hitler
>had just received the votes of 20% of the entire population.

According to the latest public opinion poll, a party that is as close
to the nazis as you can get without risking a ban, got 5%.

>--
>Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
> "American politics is, and has always been, a mere struggle between rival
>  gangs of looters and exploiters." -- H. L. Mencken
-- 
* Onno Meyer - Kastanienallee 40 - 2900 Oldenburg - Deutschland  *
*     e-mail: Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de        *
* Mathe-Student, und auch etwas Informatik...                    *
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.test,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
From: getachew@yosemite.math.ucla.edu (getachew hagos)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Dept.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:47:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec7.201122.14502@seachg.uucp> chrisb@seachg.UUCP (Chris Blask) writes:
>In article <1992Dec4.174207.592@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mbur@nyx.cs.du.edu (MAC) writes:
>>
>>
>>Once again, the entire world turns its collective eyes towards the United
>>States of America to solve the worlds problems.  We are the only nation
>>who is able to do it, and has the balls to do it.  God bless the U.S. and
>>may God bless the men and women of our armed forces.
>>
>>When will the rest of the world ever get off of its collective ass and
>>do something worth while? <sigh>
>>
>>Don't mess with the U.S.
>
>Well, I have to agree and disagree with you.  
>
>-Chris Blask
--------------//---------------

	Again to add more from Chris Blask, I have to agree and disagree 
with you. 
	The most imprtant thing which your eyes missed, but clear to the 
entire world is 'who created the mess in Somalia?'. What an asshole! 
Why are African wild animals does not starve to death? 
	If you want to hear the answers, it's the US that created the whole
mess in Somalia, it's that guilty concessions and possibly seeking advantage
that drives the US to Somalia.  Do you know why animals in Africa 
does not starve to death, too? It's simply stated, they do not buy the evil 
American guns. And more important they dont have those moron leaders that
kill its own people for their egoist interest and power.
	I can talk more than a book if you want, about the US mischief to 
the entire innocent African people who usually trust it, but it's 
worthless to say it here. I, on the other hand agree with the US gov't
on accepting the fact that they were part of the problem out there and 
trying to fix the mess they created, but not with your half-witted idea
that the US being the policeman of the entire world, nor the fact that the 
US is the only nation that can do this. Got it!

G.

Xref: sparky alt.current-events.somalia:426 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:9983 alt.politics.org.un:129 talk.politics.misc:63977 alt.politics.bush:14465 talk.bizarre:41365
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Sonalia
Followup-To: misc.test
Date: 12 Dec 1992 20:18:55 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: stealth.intel.com

In article <gerald.724056122@gerald> gerald@torolab4.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>In MISC.TEST, etc., bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
>>Does he have buck-teeth and the IQ of a clam?
>
>I know I'll get in trouble for this, but I just HAD to point it out before
>he cancels it.

The problem with your accusation is that I *know* how to
use misc.test replies and the mail-maps to analyze network
response.

It's running a hair slow this week.

				--Blair
				  "Take all you want
				   but eat all you take."
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:50:23 GMT

In article <1gabndINNf93@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
}In <1992Dec11.143819.29799@cbnews.cb.att.com> jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com writes:
}
}> Now those checkpoint guards have done it -- they've shot and killed a
}> truckload of Somalis for having bad brakes! The idiots! Don't they know
}> killing people makes them vulnerable to the glare of the media?
}  Ahem.  Those doing the shooting were members of the French Foreign Legion.
}Last I checked, they were from France, whose president is a Socialist (though
}perhaps not for much longer), not a Republican.
}
}  So far, "our boys" (US marines) haven't shot anybody...You may stop foaming
}at the mouth now.

Well, some (suicidal idiots?) decided to shoot at fully-armed cobra fighter chopters
using recoilless rigles mounted on (what use to be) three trucks.

hint: these same weapons were quite useful at removing tanks in iraq.  Want to
guess on the impact on a truck?
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: somalia
Date: 18 Dec 1992 18:46:21 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Dec18.170728.6955@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> awells@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu writes:

> WE MUST CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE US ARMY OCCUPATION
> OF SOMALIA,

  Mostly, its the Marines still.  Army's coming, though.  How about the French,
Canadian, and other (around 13K-22K troops, according to Elizabeth) folks
from other than the US due to arrive.  Are they all possessed of ulterior 
motives?  Given the stated desire of the US to get out ASAP, what will you say
when the Army leaves, leaving the other nations to complete the job?

> and the horrifying hi-tech killing machines they

  Dumb bullets and starvation are no prettier than an Maverick AGM, fella.

> use to impose their control on all parts of the world.

  The Canadians, Aussies, Germans, Vietnamese, and a whole slew of other
nations will be most surprised to hear they are controlled by the US military.
 
>   For those of you that realize this, let's hear from you!!
> Don't let these gratuitous right-wing ideologues dominate
> the net the way they dominate the mass media!!!!!

  Yes, far be it from Mr. Wells to respond to the many and varied arguements
put forth to support the US operations (requested by the UN, let us not forget),
why don't you do it for him?

  Of course, it's easier to make statements like this than actually come up
with a cogent arguement.  I suppose he got tired of thinking.

  I'm sorry for being more than usually snide, but this is the sort of non-
informative flame-bait that gets my goat.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************