HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 16 Aug 1992 23:44:11 CDT
From: David James Alexander Hanley <U55870@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
 <34255@cbmvax.commodore.com> <1992Aug15.025141.12827@cs.mun.ca>
 <34299@cbmvax.commodore.com>

In article <34299@cbmvax.commodore.com>, kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John
Kominetz - CATS) says:
>In article <1992Aug15.025141.12827@cs.mun.ca> brian@odie.cs.mun.ca (Brian
>Paquet) writes:
>>I do Yoshinkan Karate.
>>BTW anyone out there ever hear of Yoshinkan, or do it...
>I have not heard of Yoshinkan karate, but I have heard of a style of Aikido
>called Yoshinkan.  I have also heard it called Yoshinkai, but I am not sure
>if these are the same of different aikidos.  Any Yoshin(kan|kai) aikido
>practitioners out there to set the record straight?

  I study Yoshinkan Aikido.  I have never heard of Yoshinkan karate,
but I suppose it could exist.  "The house for cultivation of the mind"
is roughly what "yoshinkan" means and imagine that might be an
attractive name.  "Yoshinkai" is used sometimes, but I'm not sure
exactly when.  I know it also refers to the main dojo--The Yoshinkai.

  Not having much experience with other forms of aikido, I can't really
explain how different from other forms of aikido it is.  I have been
told it is a slightly less "do" than most aikido, that it is more
"pragmatic" and incorporates some aki-ju-jit-su.  I imagine the
"pragmatism" of an art might depend heavily on the instructor as well,
and sensi does sometimes mention that we may have to use this out on
the street sometimes..  I do know that yoshinkan ius taught to the
elite riot patrol police in tokyo, so there must be something to it.



--DAVE!!!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ddewar@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (derek.a.dewar)
Subject: Re: Shotokan Misconceptions - revisited
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 08:15:19 GMT

In article <memo.574799@cix.compulink.co.uk> bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>
>
>>As for the depth of the stance, well I'm just commenting on what i've
>>seen recently at the Traditional Karate Open Rated Circuit, where most
>>of the Shotokan kata competitors take a much deeper stance than usual,
>>but then at Open tournaments most of the katas unfamiliar to the judges
>>are taken at face value. Sure, the basic principles of movement and
>>technique can be looked for, but the intricate details of the kata will
>>not be seen.
>
>
>I think that the judges really must take the blame here.
>They appear to award higher marks for more athletic
>performances. Therefore the karataka all try to be more
>athletic rather than "doing it right" - terrible shame
>really.

Yup, I know what you mean. I tend to use some of my old Shito-Ryu
katas,as they seem to go down better than some of the Wado-Ryu ones
I could do. The Shotokan contingents tend to use katas 'Unsu', and
'Niju-shiho Dai' (sorry if I got that wrong, but anyway the kata has 
a huge 360 degrees jump in it.) Very impressive katas, and lots of
varying performances, and i'm sure the judges couldn't tell if they
were doing it right or not, as they were from Wado-Kai in Wales...

>On the subject of the Trad Open Circuit, I understand they
>are using some from of "pressure reading makiwara" to
>determine who has the hardest punch. Does anyone know how
>it works and exactly what it measures. I am rather concerned
>that it just measures pressure rather than the focus of
>the blow. This may mean that the person deemed to have the
>hardest punch would not necessarily have the most effective
>punch. Anybody care to enlighten me?

Well, i've been to the 2 Trad events, and at the first one in London,
there were a fair number of people who tried it, and at the second one in 
Afan Lido, there were a hell of a lot more waiting to test their gyaku-zuki.

I saw *really* big guys taking one huge punches, and only registering 
a mediocre score, even when they hit it dead centre. From what I can gather,
it looks to be based on the focus of the punch. Seemingly a short, sharp 
punch will get as good, if not better reading, than an exaggerated, drawn
back ,full bodied, gyaku complete with blood curdling kiai. So, basically
yes, it looks to be based on focus, which means size doesn't matter. :-)

The annoying thing is the two parallel flat beams that come out from the 
base of the stand for the pad, which you have to stand on whilst performing
the punch. Now, if the punch is very forceful, you'll see the competitor
come off the floor as the pad tilts back, and angles the beams he/she is 
standing on. 

Basically, I wouldn't bother too much with it. It just seems to be a gimmick
which will die off eventually.

All the best

Del

---
Derek A. Dewar
AT&T Network Systems UK Ltd
Malmesbury, Wiltshire,
SN16 9NA

ddewar@ihlpb.att.com
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Rope as a weapon ?
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:28:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <BtCM1H.1G4@nntp-sc.Intel.COM> jquarant@mipos3.UUCP (James R. Quaranta Jr.) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.081655.11965@ecst.csuchico.edu> jmeyers@ecst.csuchico.edu (Jeff Meyers) writes:
>In article <64319@cup.portal.com> ami-tox@cup.portal.com (Enrico Ami-tox gilberti) writes:
>Are there any MA out there that utalize ROPE as a weapon ? 
>I remember reading an article about it but have forgoten where. 
>
>I have only heard of hojojitsu - "art of tying" (?) where ropes are
>used to bind the opponent (or, criminal in old Japan).  Got a video
>
>I saw a tape from a Shao-lin demo (I forget where the demo was).  In it,
>one person maneuvered around his opponent so they were back to back.  He
>then pulled a *belt* out from his gi, looped the ends around his
>hands, and flipped it behind his head, snaring his opponents head/throat.  He
>then bent forward, flipping the unfortunate soul over his back by the
>throat! (for the purpose of the demo, the "flippee" guarded his neck
>with his forearms)

This is a pretty typical manrikigusari (weighted chain) technique. Lots of systems
employ "flexible weapons", such as the manrikigusari, surujin (basically an Okinawan
manrikigusari), various Chinese weapons that operate on similar principles, as
well as kusarigama (sickle/chain weapons). Many of these weapons techniques
work almost as well with a rope or belt. 

Steve
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The rat, MA, and others
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:29:53 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
Summary: Joe reveals his unprepossessing start on the road to enlightenment
Keywords: vermin, insert your favorite, only good one is a dead one
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

>   Why is your instinctive reaction to kill one of God's creatures?
                                                    ^^^^^
Don't know about Stephen, but that's not the superhuman being whom _I_
associate with rats.  It's really atavistic -- Plague! Rabies! Rats
eating the baby! Rats in the grain!  Here, kitty kitty!

The kid has a pet rat.  Smart, cute little animal.  Great pet.  Not to
be mistaken for the kind of rat you keep pestering the landlord to get
rid of, any more than you'd mistake a crack dealer or a mercenary for
someone you'd want to invite over for dinner.

Joe "The sewer rat:  Jeopardy answer to "What good are .22 Shorts" Chew
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: mallon@hsi.com (Dan Mallon-Kraft)
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
Organization: 3M Health Information Systems, Wallingford CT
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:19:30 GMT

In article <355mz3j@lynx.unm.edu> swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes:
>
>it has been said that conviction is a greater enemy of truth
>than lies.  i feel this has been exemplified in northcutt's
>post.  however i also am of the camp that this post, as well
>as some of those that are typical of Khan, are wholly 
>inappropriate.

Personally, I thought the whole article was just a parody of something Khan
would right, except from the Christian perspective.  :-)

Not going to wax poetic or lecture on this one.

Dan
-- 
 Dan Mallon-Kraft		     mallon@hsi.com
 3M Health Information Systems	     {uunet,yale}!hsi!mallon
From: pitaro@joker.sanders.lockheed.com (Michael Pitaro)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Any leads on Judo Training
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:42:34 GMT
Reply-To: pitaro@rocket.sanders.com
Organization: Lockheed Sanders, Inc.
In-reply-to: bward@bss2.umd.edu's message of 14 Aug 92 13:35:44 GMT

I lived in the Washington area in the mid 70's.  There were two clubs
which were decent at the time.  One was at Howard University.  I don't
know whether it's still around.  The other was in Alexandria run by
Takemori (sp?). I think I heard they have since moved to Georgetown.
--
Michael Pitaro                              Lockheed Sanders, Inc.
                                            PO Box 868, MER24-1583C
Signal Processing Center of Technology      Nashua, NH 03061-0868
pitaro@rocket.sanders.com                   603/885-9794 (Voice)
(or) ...!uunet!rocket!pitaro                603/885-0631 (FAX)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Altitude adaption
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:12:40 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

At what speed would you have to travel for your body to adapt itself
on-the-go?  If you drove to Denver (from wherever) as opposed to flying,
would that be a slow enough trip?

(Maybe not the correct newsgroup for this question, but this _is_ where
the thread started...)

--
David "Jester" Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: The rat, MA, and others
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:14:02 GMT

In article <16oicjINNk6b@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:
>When do you plan on telling us about your latest exploits pulling
>wings off flies?  What style of grab do you use for such motions?
>How do the flies react?

I give up, Wing Chun maybe?
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:26:16 GMT

lund@ssd.kodak.com (Nate Lund) says:


>[major snip]

>Depends what your defintion of grappling is.  Infighting itself is
>many times considered grappling by definition.  I can definately say
>that the Sticky Hands, which is unique to WC, is considered grappling.
                                 ^^^^^^
>Nope.  (Not unique)

Then what other art has the "sticky" type hands to the extent Wing Chun
does?

The only thing I know of remotely close is Fut Kin, and that art
uses too many circular movements to keep the hands in a true
sticky approach. (From a Wing Chun perspective of course).
Same with Rou Shou in Paqua.

Kali and Penjak Silat are simmilar, but do not express the sticky
hands ideas to the same extent.

>Grappling?  Well, I guess if that's your definition, well, I guess
>you can define the words you use any way you like, but don't be surprised
>if people misunderstand you.  (:-)

As I said before it depends on your definition of grappling.  But the
previous one presented is a fairly common one (traps and such).

>I understand grappling to be, well, to grapple.  As in grappling hooks.
>To grab and hang on.  In the more mature grappling arts, it usually seems
>to involve joint manipulation, pressure points, throwing, and ground work.
>(Or some combination thereof.)

Right.  That's why the Wing Chun handwork (larp sao, and various other
traps and principles, including locks and pressure points) is considered
to fall under grappling.  I will say that takedowns are considered 
unnecessary (flips, throws and such) in Wing Chun.  Foot sweeps
are dedfinately used though.  It has to do with maintaining an
upright body structure, which is one of the important 
principals in Wing Chun.


>Not a flame, just a counterpoint.

Not a prob. :)

>Nate
>nlund@kodak.com



Marty

Do
From: jew@Sunquest.COM (Ward... James Ward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:58:51 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Sunquest Information Systems
In-reply-to: snorthc@nswc.navy.mil's message of 12 Aug 92 11:30:42 GMT

Wow, I never knew Stephen Nortcutt was a Christian.  I thought he was
a normal taekwondo doin' dude.

What is the deal with MA and this middle-eastern religion anyway?  I
visited a new taekwondo school in town last night.  Headed by one 7th
degree Jae Kim.  This man's taekwondo seems to be the best in town.
Better even than 8th degree D.H. Kim's school down the street from
here.  While we were trying to talk after he'd dismissed class, he
picked up and perused one of those Christian pamphlets you always see
everywhere.  He had Korean Baptist church fliers on his desk too.  I
decided not to join his school for various reasons.  I couldn't
communicate with him very well (his english wasn't too good), his
school is too far away, and frankly, I was wierded out by the
religious stuff.

As far as gays being in the dojang goes, what's the diff (I haven't
read that thread)?  I mean, what does sexual orientation have to do
with martial arts?  Do you have to get horny for estrogenous people to
do a kick?  I don't think so.  Maybe I should have read the thread
before commenting, but I didn't, so kick me!  :-)

I guess I should sum it up: I don't feel MA and religion need mixture.
--
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: The Christian MA
Organization: just me
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 13:49:00 GMT
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts

In article <34255@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - CATS) writes:
<other stuff deleted>
>
>Aikido does not have sparring or tournaments, and we actively work at
>getting away from "goal" and "prize" orientation.  What other martial
>arts work from this premise?  I can't imagine eskrima sparring or
>ninjustu tournaments, but my exposure to other arts is limited to 
>watching some TaeKwonDo and working with a Gojo-Ryu blackbelt who is
>also studying aikido. 

Well, for one, Tomiki Aikido has tournaments.  The first test requires
knowledge of all the basic tournament motions.  I doubt however that they
are very prize oriented.  I have rarely known martial artists not to be
goal oriented "Gee, I'd like to learn this technique this month".

The tournaments feature lots of sparring (randori), which often includ
groundfighting using Judo and similar techniques for chokes and holds.

>        John Kominetz, III            \/          Aikido Ki No Kawa

	David Pipes
robear@digex.com
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: re: Shaolin Temple news.
Date: 18 Aug 1992 05:05:10 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <Bt5vI2.4nM@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!) writes:
>Just one question, HOW THE HECK do you lift ANYTHING
>with your testicles? There arent any muscles there?!

Well now, *you* obviously haven't been doing your exercises....

(Just what kind of martial artist are you anyway?  Jeesh.)


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
From: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Fist in Shotokai
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:15:58 GMT
Reply-To: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

Since asking about Shotokai a few months back, I have been sticking at this
style and am gradually coming round to understanding it.

However, one aspect that still puzzles me is the formation of the fist.

In Shotokan, and in many other styles, the top of the surface of the fist
formed a straight line with the top of the forearm.  I guess that this
is to focus the punch in the first knuckles of the index and middle
fingers.

However, in Shotokai the contact point is the second knuckles of those
fingers, and the top of the fist is lifted slightly, at an angle to the 
forearm.


        ********------------
	*	SHOTOKAN
	*      *------------ 
        ********



        **
       *  **
      *     **
     **       **_____________
       **       SHOTOKAI (Angle is exagerrated)
         **  *--------------    
           **


One reason I was given is that the Shotokan seiken is more susceptible to
being bent down (since it is a bit asymmetrical).

Also, I think the Shotokan fist does feel a bit vulnerable for strikes
to the upper half of the body - above the horizontal relative to the puncher.

But the Shotokan fist still feels better to me.  I reckon that I would have
to condition my hands more to strike well with that angles fist.  Also,
the upper finger joints will experience leverage on the strike.  This wouldn't
happen with the Shotokan fist.

Any thoughts on this?

NB - The style is Shotokai - NOT Shukokai.

tommy
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Speed of a Brick Breaking Blow
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:25:48 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, HSS

In article <1992Aug20.075556.160@news.uwyo.edu>, rtravsky@news.uwyo.edu (Rich Travsky) writes:
|> One of our statewide newspapers carries a column called "L. M.
|> Boyd  Odds & Ends". And it's exactly that, little odds and ends
|> (fun facts and all that).
|> 
|> One tidbit this week covers breaking a brick in karate. It states
|> that the fist ( or a foot also, I guess, but a hand is implied)
|> remains in contact with the surface of the brick for as little
|> as five one-thousandths of a second. The recoil is on the order
|> of 200 miles per hour.
|> 
|> The problem with these little gems is he (Boyd) never says where
|> he gets these things from. I'd sure like to see more of whatever
|> he's quoting from on this one.
|> 

That sounds a little high; I recall hand speeds as being around 10-15 m/s
for these strikes, or 25-35 mph.  Maybe he's estimating how fast the middle
of the brick is moving if you take it to maximum flex and let it snap back.

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: glo@dvlseq.us.oracle.com (George Lo)
Subject: Re: re: Shao-lin Temple news
Keywords: ???
Organization: Oracle World HQ, Redwood Shores, California
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 06:56:24 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Aug14.205655.8592@exu.ericsson.se> exudms@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>>Many years ago, there was a Japanese guy who went to visit Shaolin.
>
>How long ago?
>
>>And he saw some pictures on the wall.  Being inspired by the pictures
>>he went back to Japan and founded the Japanese Shaolin school and
>>there are a lot of students.  He re-visited Shaolin after many years
>>and got a lineage tablet established though he didn't learn from any
>>Shaolin master.  This is recorded by the Chinese government inside
>>the Shaolin advisetisement.
>>Guess one day when I become famous I can also get a lineage tablet
>>established. 
>
>Sorry Mr. Lo, 
>But when I read about people visiting the ruines of the north "Shao Lin" temple in Henan to see some of the historical relics,...that's great; that's ok. But if people think that they are going to find any of the "real" Shao Lin Kung Fu there they are dre
>aming.

You don't need to say sorry to me.  I don't think you are doing anything
wrong but seems like you misunderstand what I am saying.  I am talking
about a real story but not about whether there is real martial art remaining
in Shaolin temple nowadays.  Obviously, I myself also doubt that if those 
monks there really knows the real martial art but I don't know the real
situation.  So, let's not talk about that.

>Now this is what bothers me. The Chinese government recognizes "Wu Shu", and not "Kung Fu" and they don't have Sifus, they have "Coaches".
>

Again, I realized that too.  But there is nothing to do with a guy who
claimed to be inspired by the pictures on the wall.
>
>So when I hear of someone going to the SHAO LIN TEMPLE to learn Kung Fu, or the "MONKS FROM SHAO LIN", it kind of bothers me. Is it authentic?

I guess we actually have the same opinions on a lot of the thing about
modern age Shaolin but I think you really misunderstand me.  I just want
to point out that having a tablet established not necessarly quarantee
the real lineage from Shaolin.

I do agree that modern age Shaolin monks are being very commercialized.
And I also doubt that if they are really monks or some people chosen to
perform "Wu Shu" to earn money.
However, this is not the topic I would like to talk about.
From: neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Aikido, (effectiveness)
Keywords: wristlocks
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:15:33 GMT
Reply-To: celia!neil@usc.edu (Neil Richmond)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <3434@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>In article <cthong.713691852@sfu.ca> cthong@fraser.sfu.ca (Christopher Thong) writes:
 
>	In my experience it's the other way around: the judoka doesn't
>follow the aikidoka's subtle leads the way she expects and many techniques
>fail.  A good example is nikkyo:  a judoka will instinctively adjust his
>line in a way that makes this technique difficult to apply.  The aikidoka
>expects to be able to make her opponent extend his grab past his range
>of effectivness but a judoka simply won't do that.

In my experience, it is how effective the aikidoka is that will make the dif-
ference. A good aikidoka should expect anything from the uke, including not
following her lead. A good aikidoka can lead without the uke realizing that 
he is being led. Obviously, if an experienced uke realizes that he is being
led, he would change the attack. It is similar in other martial arts. There
are counters to technqiues that are for just this situation. If one knows 
nikkyo is being applied, there is a window in which the uke can change and
thwart the technique. This has been used on me on many ocassions when I was
not doing the technique quick enough for an advanced student. There are coun-
ters to kotegaeshi where it is the uke who ends up thowing the nage. The key
is perceiving the technique that is being applied.

neil

-- 
Only 2697 shopping days left till the next millenium! 
Neil F. Richmond         INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu
Rhythm & Hues Inc.       UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun style...help!
Date: 17 Aug 1992 19:22:39 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

ninja@ecr.mu.oz.au (Jonathan_Piers HEARN) writes:

  +So what exactly does 'Sticky Hands' techniques consist of ?

Well, jam, peanut butter, old Coca-Cola come to mind...things just haven't
been the same since pine tar was outlawed.


Terry "There are advanced techniques using periodicals, but those 
          are for the highest levels of Greenoch only, so I've been told" Chan
--
Berkeley, California                           Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
"As to the veracity of my source, this is my GRANDMOTHER you're talking about!"
                                         -- Someone on alt.folklore.urban