HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sridhar@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman )
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:30:05 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:

)I've already shot this one down, but Joel keeps coming back to it...the facts
)don't support his case. It's simply not as easy as he makes it out to be;
)either there are expensive or difficult registration requirements, severe
)access limits, or both.

Ok. for your benefit.. login as bbs on bbs.oit.unc.edu. Read-only
access initially but posting privileges on request by paper mail.
Hope you find that alt is not a sewer after all.

)-- 
)Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
)jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
)  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button

Sridhar.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman			sridhar@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.native-america
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:04:20 GMT

jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>>You are a native of this country, but not a "Native American" in the
>>colloquial sense.  I don't know of anyone who refers to themselves as
>>"Native American" who does not have a fair portion of Cherokee or
>>Navajo (or some such) blood in them.

>Bullshit, Tim.  Anyone born in America is a native American.  

However, not just anyone born in North and South America is Native American.

(OK, so the point is moot with regards to newsgroup names, but still...)

[...]

>I never have figured out why some American Indians seem to be so ashamed
>of their breed that they want to try to change their name to somehing
>politically correct but completely meaningless.  

As if "American Indian" has any meaning in and of itself.  The indigenous
peoples of the Americas are not from India.  The only reason that misnomer
was applied was because some Spanish sailor of the 15th century got lost,
and thought he was off the coast of Asia when he landed in the Bahamas.

I'll agree that Native American isn't in and of itself any more descriptive.
At least the term "Native American" doesn't immediately call to mind (IMHO)
as many erroneous stereotypical images to your average U.S. resident as
the term "Indian" does (you know...the noble savage injuns who walked around
wearing big warbonnets, carrying tomohawks, scalping folks, saying "Ugh!" and
"How!", etc.).

"Native Americans," "Aboriginal Americans," "Indigenous Americans," whatever.
The latter two are more correct, and I think the first term is fairly well
understood, at least among educated folks of the North American continent.
"[American] Indian" is (IMO) an unacceptable term.  It's primarily just a
pet peeve of mine, and to me it smells slightly racist.

>What is wrong with soc.culture.american.indian?

Would that be a news group to discuss topics relating to the culture of
people whose ancestors have lived in the Americas for centuries, or
for articles relating to issues faced by people whose ancestors lived
in South Asia a hundred or so years ago?

You weren't around for the soc.culture.indian.american fiasco, were you?

A quick check through the active list here shows the following groups
in existence:

	rec.music.indian.classical 
	rec.music.indian.misc 
	soc.culture.indian 
	soc.culture.indian.telugu 

It seems to me that "Indian" on the net implies South Asian origin, not
of pre-European American origin.  I think that the [South Asian] Indians
and the [South Asian] Indian-Americans might have some comments about
the creation of a soc.culture.american.indian.

--
Michael Adams				| Science without religion is lame;
Actuarial Science Program @ UIUC	| religion without science is blind.
StarOwl@uiuc.edu (NeXTmail OK)		| 		-- Thomas Edison
an692@anon.penet.fi (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv	     
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: Don't mess with the folklore people
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:27:09 GMT

In article <dct.724523759@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu> dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David C. Tuttle) writes:
> But seriously, if comp.society.folklore had any traffic at all, this
> whole vote thing probably wouldn't have happened.

So, run a vote to unmoderate comp.society.folklore without involving
alt.folklore.computers. It will almost certainly pass, and we can *see*
what the difference (if any) is before doing anything irrevocable.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec12155241@mother.intellection.com> <BzBMAn.57y@rice.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:26:30 GMT

In article <BzBMAn.57y@rice.edu> cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:

   I think tying the voting rules themselves to something as nebulous
   and hard to count as "usenet sites" or "traffic on this topic"
   would be asking for group wars that would make all previous group
   wars look like minor skirmishes.

I think the way to avoid this is to agree in advance on some objective
metrics.  I'm unsure what metrics to use, but there are some numbers
floating around which /may/ fit the bill.

For example, the UUNET news statistics include the number of sites
where at least one person posted an article within the last two weeks
(25821 in the December 9 article).  It's not so important that we have
an accurate count of netnews sites as that we have a factor in the
voting rule which reflects the growth of netnews.  The question
remaining is what constant multiplier should be used with 25821 as a
coefficient.  And I would expect that the average over a three or six
month period would be more reliable than just using the most recent
figure.

I agree that "traffic on this topic" is difficult to formalize and may
lead to flame wars.  On the other hand, we don't know in advance until
it is tried.  It is certainly possible to count articles in related
mailing lists and to estimate percent of traffic in existing groups,
and it would be up to the proponents of the new group to come up with
a consensus figure during the CFD period.

Let's think of a way to make this work.  Someone take what I've
written so far, add some new ideas and run a few more yards with it.
This is a brainstorming session.  I'd rather not assume in advance
that there's no point in thinking about it.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: User's Guide to the Changing USENET
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<12814.9212082335@csparc12.scs.leeds.ac.uk>
	<1992Dec9.152151.13295@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
	<1992Dec9.230248.28039@daimi.aau.dk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:54:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.230248.28039@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

   Add to that USENET is growing very fast anyway. In fact many people
   are worried that it might get strangled in it's success.

Imminent death of the net predicted by many.  Details in
alt.conspiracy.  :)
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 16 Dec 92 22:40:23 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Dec10.232147.12398@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> >   The call for votes was posted in the affected newsgroup(s).
> 
> So what? 

I KNOW I'm leaning into the punch with this but go ahead:

> Was it posted often enough? 

As often as the guidelines specify.

> With the proper subject line?

As per the guidelines.

> With clear one-page instructions detailing how to vote and what the
> vote affects?

Not called for in the guidelines Maybe in yours but not in the ones we
use around here for conducting votes. 

> It is that justifier that is so repeatedly used which brings the 
> deserved cry of "elitist". 

Say it a few more times. There are some Eskimos that haven't heard your
tired and plaintive cry yet. 

You don't like it the guidelines? Stop pissing and moaning about it and
PROPOSE MODIFICATIONS! And save your "Why? so you can shoot them down?"
protestations for someone who hasn't heard it.  I've seen no such
formal proposals from you, only bitching, word twisting, nit-picking,
finger pointing and foot stamping from you, ross-c and Gordon with
no substantive input with any basis in the reality of the net. 

You are fast becoming a waste of net-access and this thread has long since
passed any hope of producing useful results. 
 

-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:45:15 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

Point of information only:

In article <1gg5q1INNfn0@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
> Renaming a group, in and of itself, has no effect on the
> contents of that group.

Sure it does. The name is an indicator of the preferred discussion. Change
the name, and different people will start reading the group, moving the
contents towards what you would expect based on the new name. There is more
or less hysteresis (and occasionally a bit of hysteria) but the steady state
will involve a change of content.
-- 
%Peter da Silva/77487-5012 USA/+1 713 274 5180/Have you hugged your wolf today?
/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def/F{0 562 moveto 180 576 324 648 396 736 C 432 736 L
482 670 518 634 612 612 C}def/G{setgray}def .75 G F 612 792 L 0 792 L fill 1 G
324 720 24 0 360 arc fill 0 G 3 setlinewidth F stroke showpage % "Peerless"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:38:56 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>I told you. Figure it out. (I don't think I could explain it to you without
>>you taking it the wrong way...and if you get it yourself you'll GET it)
>I guess I'll have to stay confused, then; most folks don't bother with
>unimportant things.

No, they only bother with important things. (That's a hint)

>...?? You mean you don't object to being labeled irrational??

I can't possibly object to being labeled anything. I can complain
about it, but it's your decision to label me. 

As for being irrational, there's times when that's useful to be. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Learn from the mistakes of others.  You don't have time to make them all yourself.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:48:09 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>What about those groups which need to be renamed for other reasons besides
>traffic flow? Your proposal would swamp those. 

10 total postings over 30 days? Really?

>Yep. It is your action that has divided the synth community, no matter how
>loud and how long you protest otherwise.

*poing*

That's simply your opinion. Besides...the initial action of changing the 
group name is what started the whole mess. 

>OK, so if you don't think it will happen, why keep pressing for it? You're
>weakening your case, not strengthening it. In particular, by pressing for a
>revote instead of proposing a name change back, you're guaranteeing that
>you'll lose any eventual vote.

If I proposed a name change back, the "spite" vote would kill it anyway...
no amount of my posting or amount of absence of my posting would change that.

>>Well then. All this argument about "logic" and "rationality" and 
>>"intellectual honesty" can be thrown right out the window, huh? 
>Just because decisions admins make about each individual site are made
>subjectively in the end doesn't mean that logical, rational, intellectually
>honest argument doesn't help convince them.

I'm not convinced that would be the case. Who's standards is logic applied
to? 

>But it's also been shown that posting more often will also increase the
>flamage and the traffic in general outside the charter of the group. This is
>good?

Flames aren't bad or good. They're just flames. Traffic is not bad or good.
It's just traffic.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

    In a meadow, the King shot an arrow at a deer but missed.  "Bravo!" a
    Fool shouted. The King became angry and snapped "So! You're making fun
         of me, eh? I am going to punish the life out of you!"
     "My word of praise was not for His Excellency, but for the deer."
Xref: sparky news.groups:24122 alt.folklore.urban:30891
From: tjw@vms.cis.pitt.edu (TJ Wood)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: VOTE ACK: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Summary: Serious Business!
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:48:28 GMT
Reply-To: tjw+@pitt.edu
Followup-To: alt.folklore.urban
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <Bz0zwn.8tu@rice.edu>, cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:

> In article <1992Dec10.013112.2932@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> ->Terry Carroll <tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>
> ->Terry Dawson <terryd@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
> ->"Terry J. Wood" <TJW@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> ->"Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr" <TERRY@spcvxa.spc.edu>
> ->"Terry Longrie" <longrie@miller.cs.uwm.edu>
> ->terryk@cc.gatech.edu (Terry Kane)
> ->twcaps@dante.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)

> -Look at all those Terries in one place.

> I think you're kidding, but my hidden smiley detector is on the
> fritz. :-) I hope you are.  amdahl, su, pitt, spc, uwm, gatech, lbl.
> All in one place, oh, yeah, right.

He's right I'm afraid.  "They" have discovered the TERRY CABAL, where all
Terries hang out.  We always vote as a block and dress exactly the same
way even though some of us are male and some are female.  (Also, some
of us are myn and some are womyn).

> Too bad someone followed up who did not sound like they were kidding.

Terries never kid.  Never.

> Please, y'all, if you must flame Mark Brader's handling of the vote,
> wait until he claims to have a clean count

Absolutely!  Let's not have any lame flames!  Flaming in SERIOUS business!

>, and don't let postings
> like this one lead you into early flaming.  

Flame early, flame often!

> Followups to news.groups since I doubt the folklore people need any
> more cross-posted flamewars.

We're collecting them!  If we get enough of them, a poor dying 7 year old
boy in England get's free kidney dialysis!

Terry "ABSOLUTELY TRUE" Wood
-- 
        INTERNET: tjw+@pitt.edu         BITNET: TJW@PITTVMS
"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!"                        - Lord "John" Warfin
"There can be only one!"                                  - The Highlander
"There should have been only one. I want my money back!"  - Terry
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Subject: Re: rec.*.synth trashed
Organization: Flame Wars R Us
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:36:32 GMT

smithj@sr.hp.com (Jim Smith) writes:

|Well, regardless of who was right, the quality of conversation in both 
|rec.music.synth and rec.music.makers.synth has dropped quite a bit from
|what was there before the renaming fiasco.  Quite a few of the most
|interesting, knowledgeable people have stopped participating in it.  Many
|of them have moved to the (now separate) synth.l mailing list.
|The group is now mostly new beginning synthesists asking questions which
|don't get answered as much as they previously did, and people trying to
|sell things.  The group used to include a dynamic, fascinating series of
|conversations on electronic music.  This has faded away.  

	Well, things change. Things can change back. This isn't an
irrererable change. It is however If no one does anything to change
how things currently are. And no, trying to rename the group back will
not fix the problem, it will only exacerbate the problem.

|By the way, there certainly are a lot of self-righteous egotistic poseurs
|who seem to hang out here in news.groups.  They seem to consider ridicule
|and personal attacks as valid (and perhaps fun) tools of discussion.
|There is a certain self-centered attitude that seems more apparent in this
|discussion groups than others I have read.  I wonder why.

	Sounds like you characterized Dave Hayes perfectly. Maybe you
should ask the question directly to him though. He'll probably come up
with some conspiracy theory which falls apart under any scrutiny.

-Cuz
Xref: sparky news.groups:24687 alt.native:1488
From: floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.<whatever>.* [ native/indigenous/aboriginal ]
Date: 19 Dec 92 07:29:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: raven.1992Dec19.072903.27368
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <JAAPJL.92Dec18214009@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov> J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov> writes:
>In article <wsm2a2=@rpi.edu> speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights) writes:
>   soc.culture.<whatever>.d            for miscellaneous discussion
>
>I should have mentioned this in my previous post about .misc.
>".d" is usually used when the parent group is moderated.  General
>discussion goes into the .d group, so that people interested in
>just the moderated info group can get it without wading through
>flamewars, etc.

Basically that is correct, except for the part about moderated
groups.

Here is a list of ".d" groups:

alt.activism.d                    alt.bbs.lists.d
alt.binaries.pictures.d           alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d
alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.d  alt.binaries.sounds.d
alt.prose.d                       alt.sex.pictures.d
alt.sex.stories.d                 alt.sources.d
comp.binaries.ibm.pc.d            comp.sources.d
comp.sys.hp48.d                   misc.forsale.computers.d
rec.humor.d                       rec.humor.oracle.d
vmsnet.sources.d

As can be seen, the reason for ".d" groups is because posts that
would be described as "discussion" are not be appropriate in
the related group.  Moderated or not hasn't much to do with it.

>In this manner, perhaps news.groups should have been
>news.announce.newgroups.d.  ;-)

Thats an idea!

Oh, someone earlier claimed that ".d" groups are out of favor and
a thing of the past...  not true obviously.  What is true is that
there is a difference between a ".d" group and a ".misc" or
".other" group.

Floyd
-- 
floyd@ims.alaska.edu        A guest on the Institute of Marine Science computer
Salcha, Alaska              system at the University of Alaska at Fairbanks.
Xref: sparky news.groups:24676 alt.native:1484
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
Subject: <None>
From: ccdarg@dct.ac.uk (Alan Greig)
Date: 11 Dec 92 14:38:39 GMT
Distribution: news,alt
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology

In article <DAVID.92Dec10095744@ricardina.inesc.pt>, david@ricardina.inesc.pt (David M. M. Matos) writes:
> In article <1992Dec6.220003.24027@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> skwatkin@nyx.cs.du.edu (Steven Watkins) writes:
>  >
>  >  I like this idea also!!  Please start a news group for fantasy writers!!
>  >  Steven
> 
> Yes!!
> 
> Was it just around here, or did alt.fan.tolkien vanish everywhere??
> 
> By the number of messages in that group and others like it I think a
> mainstream hierarchy devoted to writers (and not just fantasy) would
> be welcome...

alt.fan.tolkien seems to running strong here; about 40 messages per
day at the moment.
-- 
Alan Greig                            Janet: Alan@UK.AC.DUNDEE-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology	   Internet: Alan@DCT.AC.UK
Tel: (0382) 308810                 Int: +44 382 308810
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
From: dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David C. Tuttle)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Don't mess with the folklore people
Date: 16 Dec 1992 16:35:59 GMT

starfish@stein.u.washington.edu (Sarah Skovronsky) writes:

>Well folks, it looks as if the proposal to unmoderate c.s.folklore, etc.,
>has been killed, and rather decisively at that.  Hopefully, this major
>anti-hijacking vote tally :) will be the end of the discussion.

Yes, and those of us without access to alt.* will just sheepishly
crawl back to our cold, drafty little corners of the Interent to face
the harsh, cruel winter without the creature comforts so jealously
hoarded by the privileged. *whine* *whimper*

(I'm not really that put out by the vote, I just want to make you feel
guilty :-).

But seriously, if comp.society.folklore had any traffic at all, this
whole vote thing probably wouldn't have happened.  So throw us a bone
once in a while, OK?  (I ask that here since I can't get to the alt
group directly).

--
David C. Tuttle, Biomathematics   ----> dct@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu <----
University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center         (713) 792-2606
Mail Stop 237, 1515 Holcombe Boulevard, Houston, TX  77030-4096
Today's anagram of "David Charles Tuttle" is:  ADULT CHATTEL DRIVES 
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: How about soc.culture.america.tribal?
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 20:44:00 GMT

In article <1gb5l1INNefr@hrd769.brooks.af.mil> news@hrd769.brooks.af.mil
	(InterNet News) writes:

> The term native, to my mind, indicates an individual whose existence is 
> indigenous.  The native North Americans are not the citizens of North America.
> The native Australians are not the citizens of Australia.

Some indigenous people have opted for citizenship in the countries which
have claimed the territory on which they have lived for millenia, others
have not.  I don't see the fact of citizenship being particularly rele-
vant to our concerns.  As I said in an earlier article, the term "native,"
when used to refer to the concept of being indigenous, is talking about
a society with a long habitation in a particular land, not whether invi-
divual persons were born in a certain place.  There is an important dif-
ference.  If it turns out to be necessary, I can dig up definitions being
used by indigenous people themselves for the word indigenous - definitions
which are accepted by the world community in such forums as the U.N.

>   The problem that I see with the term 'tribal' is that many of the concerns
> that many of the posters are interested in discussing are not really 'tribal'
> in general.

Right.  I think we can safely discard the term "tribal," for this among a
number of other reasons, one of which I referred to recently in an article
which described the disdain for that term many indigenous people have,
based on the fact that it is not a term they use to describe themselves.

-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst