From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:08:27 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Sep9.173202.3975@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <1992Sep5.032105.10942@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>>In <1992Sep4.174435.3715@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>>
>>>>We have reached agreement!  The point of disagreement is that you 
>>>>contend that Fielder is substantially responsible for the runs, and
>>>>thf (with lots of agreement by daves and dave-wanna-bes) says
>>>>that Tettleton, Fryman, Phillips and Whitaker on the whole contributed
>>>		 ^^^^^^
>>>>more.  Fielder just got more of the accounting entries called RBIs.
>>
>>>How did a guy with lower OBP *AND* lower SLG contribute MORE to his team's 
>>>offense? In the BTW category, in 1990, Fielder had the highest SLG and OBP
>>>on the team. In '91, he had the highest SLG. This year, he STILL has the highest
>>>SLG of anyone who hasn't missed more than ~30 games (as of Aug 30).

>>Mike, you're missing an important distinction here:

>>1) Over the past year and 3/4, Cecil Fielder has produced more offense
>>than Travis Fryman.

>>2) Over the past year and 3/4, Travis Fryman has been a more valuable
>>offensive player.  He has contributed more though he has produced less.
> 		    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I'm sure you don't really mean this.

>>The key to the difference in contributions is that the difference between
>>Fryman and a replacement level shortstop/third baseman is larger than the
>>difference between Fielder and a replacement level first baseman.

>No, YOU miss the point. The OFFENSE does NOT care what position those hits
>come from. NOBODY bats as a 2nd baseman, or catcher, or whatever. The hits,

Wrong.  EVERYBODY bats as a 2B, or a DH, or whatever.  

>outs, doubles, runs, stolen bases, etc, are INDEPENDENT of defensive postion.

True.  But...

>Unless, of course, you are aware of some new rule that has eluded the rest of
>us.

It's an old rule.  You may have exactly one player from each position in
your lineup.  

That is, no matter how good your nine best hitters are, your lineup
must contain a shortstop, a catcher, a first baseman, etc.  

Now we move from rules to observations of real baseball: anybody who
can play in the majors can play first base without hurting the team.  
90% of major leaguers can't play catcher, though, and most can't play 
middle infield either.  Although a homer is a homer is a homer, getting
20 homers out of your shortstop improves your offense far more than 
getting 20 homers out of your first baseman, because it's very easy
to replace a first baseman with a better hitting one.  REplaceability
is a component of value in baseball;  shortstops are not as replaceable
as first basemen.  If Fielder went down, the Tigers could trade for any
of about 30 players in the league and not lose much offense or defense;
if Whitaker or Fryman or Tettleton went down, they;d have to sacrifice 
some offense to fill the defense they absolutely need.  As Casey Stengel
said, if you don't have a catcher, you're going to have a lot of passed
balls.

> You MAY choose to say that a shortstop with a certain amount of hitting
>is more valuable than a first baseman with a certain amount more, to his team.
>However, you may not say he is a better offensive player. See Bill James if
>this point needs further clarification.

Further clarification: is Fryman gets hurt, he can become a first baseman.
If Fielder gets hurt, he can become a coach.  Fryman's offensive *potential*
is greater than Fielder's because his defensive utility/disutility will
not force him out of baseball as soon.

>As for the "replacement level" stuff, that's only relevant if you have such a
>player ready to play. This is not always the case. Ask the Red Sox.

No.  Don't ask the Red Sox.  That would be like asking Dan QUayle about
farm parity.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball