From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:40:56 GMT

In article <92327.16252432BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> TERRY D. BARKLEY <32BSFJC@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes:
>[...]
>     I have to think, however, that if we are having this argument now, and it
>appears to have happened before in the past, then these differences of opinions
>prove the need for a seperate forum.  I know I will never agree that Fantasy
>belongs with sci-fi (I have to believe there are others out there who agree)
>and there must be those out there who believe that Sci-Fi shouldn't be put with
>Fantasy.  There also has to be those that say both are one and the same (or
>varying degrees of importance are given to one side or the other). 

I think you've misunderstood many of the arguments here. Noboby so far has
said that science fiction and fantasy are the same. It is quite clear that
they - in the classic examples - aren't. In the mind of the readers of the
concerned group (I allow myself to express a general opinion) they can be
grouped together under speculative fiction.

We have discussed this very often - too often in many people's eyes - and
we have enventually reached the conclusion that there are too many border-
line cases to make a distinction practical. It is therefore irritating to
us when people come and say, that we need a distinction, that separate
groups are needed.

If you really want to do something useful, give us a hard spefication which
can be used to distinguish between the two genres. Who knows, maybe you
can actually do it? I'll still wager that one of two things will happen:

	1) we will be able to offer counter examples to every
	   classification scheme which you can bring, and not
	   just one or two examples.

	2) your classification will be so narrow that you cut 
	   off a very large part of litterature which is also
	   deserving of the name fantasy.

A news group based on either of the two is not viable. The first will lead
to endless discussions about whether a particular work is appropriate in
the group, and the second will be seen as elitist. The group would also
be swamped by posts - which based on the name are appropriate - which you
probably would find inappropriate.

>                                                                  But, at the
>risk of being flamed and of sounding sophomoric, if there can be groups
>dedicated to Dr. Who, Metallica, Star Trek (The Next Generation as opposed to
>the original, and vice-versa), and other groups with even more limited appeal
>across such a large net, then any arguments that the appeal of Rec.arts.fantasy
>would be too limited become silly, because I know that more than twenty or
>thirty would contribute over a given eight day period.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. The groups dedicated to the above
topics and specific series are there for a very good reason (actual several
good reasons). The foremost reason is that they are *distinct*, and the 
second is that they have a very large following - mostly made up of fans.
They are oriented on very specific, thematic grounds, not genre. They are
of course also part of a genre, but they are in a certain sense orthogonal
to a classification by genre.

The argument is not that the appeal of a fantasy group would be to low.
The argument is it that it is not workable.

I should like to suggest that the proponents of a fantasy group give us
exmaples of *how* they will determine what belongs there and what not.
Some specifics would be appreciated, as opposed to the 'Yes there is' 
followed by 'No there isn't' style of discussion.

>     I will take some pause here to say that I have indeed sounded somewhat
>dry lately.  It comes from having written a large amount of dry dissertations
>over the past few months. Forgive me, please.  I will try to be more brief and
>less academic in the future. (Of course, I never thought I would say that at
>college.)  

Good. I've been in need of refreshments several times while reading your
articles :-)

>            Actually, I shall sit back for a week or so and let the rest of you
>take this argument for a while.  I will say that it's been nice to get this off
>my chest in an open forum like this as opposed to trying to argue with the
>Lit clique here at CMU.

It is always nice to hear differing opinions.

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation
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