From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Forced Fatherhood Executive Summary
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:26:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.005955.12382@odin.corp.sgi.com> bglazier@buffalo.asd.sgi.com (Bill Glazier) writes:
>In article <BvE5y6.MHF@cs.psu.edu>, beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>
>|> 
>|> >I just wonder why so many men demand to be protected from their own stupidity.
>|> 
>|> Do you think the same of women?  Would you ban abortion because a woman
>|> was "stupid" enough to trust an untrustable man or unlucky enough to
>|> have her birth control fail?
>|> 
>|> >The facts are that by an overwhelming percentage, men force unwanted sex on
>|> >women more often than women force it on men.
>|> 
>|> Nobody is speaking of forced sex; they are speaking of forced parenthood.
>
>
>Sex is required for parenthood.  Forced sex can well result in parenthood. 

Thank you.  But what does that have to do with the preceding paragraphs?


>|> >  Men can always choose to use birth
>|> >control, and they should, or they deserve the consequences.  
>|> 
>|> "Women can always choose to use birth control, and they should,
>|> or they deserve the consequences."  Your "consequences" for men
>|> are the acceptance of an 18 year duty.  The natural "consequences"
>|> for women would also be an 18 year duty, starting with 9 months of 
>|> pregnancy.
>
>And women are forced to deal with their own stupidity by devoting 18 years of
>their life to caring for the child.  That's much more than 25% of your salary
>is worth, my friend.

Actually, no such thing is true:  women have the option of abortion.
Men do not.

As far as "comparing" burdens -- which won't get us far -- let me say
I would gladly pay 25% of my salary **just** for the right to raise my
children myself -- or to have them nearby.  It would be a greater burden
to miss my kids than to raise them AND to pay.

Even if we were to ban abortion, the woman would have the burden 
of childrearing and the right to choose where the children are.  The man 
would have the burden of paying 25% of his salary (to an unaccountable
and possibly antagonistic recipient) and the burden of missing his children 
for eighteen years, with very few effective rights.

Why should men be held liable even though they have no effective or equal 
say in creating children or raising them?


>|> >Control your hormones, and you control your destiny.  Be smart.  Wash your hands
>|> >before you eat, and you won't get ill.  Don't drink from bottles labeled
>|> >'poison'.  Wear a condom unless you want to make a baby.
>|> 
>|> "Women: control your hormones, and control your destiny."
>|> 
>|> "Women: use a diaphram or the Pill unless you want to make a baby."
>|> 
>|> I could accept your hard-line beliefs if they apply to both women
>|> and men (ie. if you want to ban abortion) -- but even so, to generalize 
>|> that men are incompetent to think about reproductive issues and 
>|> make responsible decisions is an insult.
>
>My comments do apply to both.  Women have the option of adoption or abortion.  They should;  the vastly greater burden lies upon them.  Some men are 
>responsible - some aren't.  I'm not generalizing - only reflecting on the
>comments of the person who issued this idiotic Forced Fatherhood Survey

I guess we have a clash of beliefs, then:  if women have adoption/abortion
options and men do not, then IMO women do not have a greater burden,
let alone "vastly greater."

Secondly, I don't believe that there is any practical way to measure
or come to agreement about "greater burden" -- especially within a
sexist system -- so I wouldn't agree with justifying a legally-enforced
prejudice because one sex has a "greater burden."

>I think that dad's-rights is a legitimate topic.  Please don't turn this
>newsgroup into an ex-wife bashing medium, or an I-want-to-be-irresponsible
>-and-damn-the-consequences-to-the-world newsgroup.

Here, our beliefs intersect.

But I hope at least that you realize that "complaints" about
pervasive discrimination against men (including forced parenthood)
don't have to arise from a desire to avoid responsibility.  Not everyone 
agrees (or disagrees) with you that women carry a "vastly greater burden."

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged