HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: The point... why turn Gavin African?
Reply-To: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:53:28 GMT

In article <cscoging.58@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za>, cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za (Chris Scogings) writes:
>writes:
>
>>>
>I have enjoyed your story very much.  I hope that it is isn't finished 
>because I am most interested in how the black Gavan gets to a university in 
>the USA. 
Not of any importance to the poit I was making... to know more about
how black survived the years of apartheid.. talk to them...Be honest
and forge an alaince unless of course you think that the story I wrote 
here which is much a bastered version of Down Second Avenue by Skiel
Mphahlele and other liretary writing is nothing else but a good feed 
back of the effect of previous policies. 

Forget the Frudian conception.... Please avoid the psychological reductionism
it does not help the debate only moves us to 'n straat loop dood.
>
>Do you know that it is ANC policy to cut budgets to all universities by 
>about 50% if (or when) they become the new govt of South Africa?
>
and then what are planning to do with the rest of the money...
elaborate..
not clear.. why would they want to do that...

what does the governmt hope to do with the education ..
please explain so that I can majke informed poolicy comparisons.


>And when there is equity and justice for all South Africans, will you come 
>home or will you still be living in the USA?
1.That doesn't sound very nice... cinical in the worse..
2.Getting a little personal Chris... debate policy not person..
  have we met before? try e-mail if you have to me personal genuenly so.
3.If you are interested in the effect of policy changes to the flow
  of skiled labor (see Alan Simons Brain drain study little old though)
  we can begin to work on it... 
4.On the other hand if you were implying that I should'nt say anything
  because I am over here... you really need to e-mail me.
5.If you  think equity and justice are a pies in the sky write your view
  on the net...  

>Chris
Good to meet you, Chrs 
how do you do?
Mokaba
"Ek vir jou Suid Afrika... Ek sal lewe en Ek sal vrek..."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: linda@frcs.Alt.ZA (Linda Jacobson)
Subject: Re: >>Theft of land
Organization: Onderstepoort School of Veterinary Science, University of Pretoria
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 18:56:38 GMT

Thus spake hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za:

> The basis of the extract you quoted from me above is that since whites owned
> the vast majority of the land in South Africa before Apartheid (remember that
> before 1905 blacks weren't allowed to own land outside of their reserves in
> both Natal and the Transvaal, and black landowners were very scarce in the
> Orange Free State) they didn't really derive any benefit from the Land Act.

Since the question I was addressing was whether apartheid benefited
whites (and damaged blacks), the comments that follow don't refer
specifically to the Land Act of 1913, but to later legislation.

First: In a normal society, people who do not own land can buy land when they
have the wherewithal. This was not possible for black people under
apartheid legislation.

Second: you say nothing about removal of people from land which did
belong to them. Remember the "black spots", Hardy? Hardly
insignificant:

The number of people removed from "black spots" alone (and that
excludes people removed from farms, urban areas, informal settlements,
white group areas etc) from 1960-1083 was around 475 000. That's
almost half a million people. Black spots are defined as "freehold land owned
by Africans of missions in areas declared for white ownership and
occupation only".

So as to whether things got worse, regarding land only, under
apartheid, I would say there's little to debate about. 

Linda
 
       
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
X-Comment: Let's see if this cross-post to sanet works ...
Subject: Re: A Joke
Organization: Indexed; Access: Random.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:06:55 +0000

"Hey, Tut, why does this piano have all the white notes at this end and
all the black ones down that end ?"

"Ag man, it's locally made ..."

Nick Leverton
    ______________________________________________________________________
   <nleverton@cix.compulink.co.uk>            <leveret@warren.demon.co.uk>
   X400: I=NJ; S=Leverton; OU=mdn0402; O=ICL; PRMD=ICL; ADMD=Gold 400; C=GB
From: gavan@UCT_elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Black Gavan Tredoux (continued) read my other posting first!
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:54:21 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:

[highly unofficial biography of myself]

Interesting reading. Keep it up. 

PS: I am not a Dr.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: rcmolden@parmesan.cs.wisc.edu (Robertc. Moldenhauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Olympics
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:30:08 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.

In article <Bs3wtJ.4C5@casper.cs.uct.ac.za> gds@cs.uct.ac.za writes:
>hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>
>>I know that initially there was talk of Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban
>>bidding for the next Olympic games.
>
>   not he next... but one after the turn of the century

2004? Has the last one this century (2000) been decided? I thought it was still
undecided.

>
>>Unfortunately, before any city can host the games, it has to meet a large
>>number of preconditions (involving security arrangements, transport
>>infrastructure, etc.). African cities in general are a long way from being in
>>the position to meet these conditions
>
>So how come Jhb, CT and Durban are (thinking of) bidding?  Are they not 
>African cities?
>-- 
>Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
>University of Cape Town                   gds%cs.uct.ac.za@m2xenix.psg.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Vincent A Mazzarella)
Subject: SASOL runs ad on CNN during prime newstime
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:25:33 GMT


On the American news service, CNN, an ad was run by SASOL. The ad touted
the engineering achievements, energy provisions, and utility of this SA
energy firm in a full three minute ad during prime newstime.

It seems to be an attempt to lure investors, perhaps. It certainly serves
to highlight some of the achievements in South Africa. 

More South African business ought to advertise on a world market. It would
serve to show that there is more to South Africa than safaris, township
violence, and ANC inspired stayaways.


-- 
Vincent Mazzarella
University of Illinois College of Medicine, Urbana
e-mail:  mazz@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu  (Internet)
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: Testing an AIDS vaccine in Africa.
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Distribution: soc.culture.african
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:23:32 GMT

In <BryCII.67q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> kautaj@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (john kauta) writes:

>A couple of years ago, some West African governments allowed their countries 
>to be used as dump-sites for western industrial waste!

> <a very deeeep sigh>

Money talks.  There was a news article around about this time of some
guy in West Africa whose backyard was filled with drums of some
dangerous muck that some unscrupulous company was paying him handsomely
to "store" for them.  I don't recall if this was private enterprise on
his part, or whether a government was involved.

-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
From: pmwanik@cadev6.intel.com (Peter Mwaniki)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Conscription of Whites into the SADF
Keywords: Apartheid is over? fools day ?
Date: 25 Jul 92 04:52:14 GMT

>I have just received my n'th call up to the SADF. 
>I was just wondering how the SADF can still conscript
>only white males to their services, even though all
>the racial segregation/discrimination laws have
>theoretically been repealed. Can someone please explain
>to the net how the SADF is getting around this one?
>Cheers,
>        Peter Laing.

most inetresting ! sadf, police, goverment, neighbourhoods, land,
schools, hospitals, industries, public toilets and all ! apatheid is
over ? what a joke ?

------                              
Peter Mwaniki,	       	            e_mail: pmwanik@scdt.intel.com
From: gavan@UCT_elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: The point... why turn Gavin African?
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:59:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucthpx.1992Jul24.135902.15247
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:

[stream of consciousness]

Seems to be saying that we need equality, health wealth and
happiness here. Noble sentiments, but no indication of any
route to this, beyond massive govt. spending on education
and other things. It isn't hard to see that

1. There isn't any money for that. We already spend at least
the world average of GDP on education, and cannot realistically
spend more.

2. Social and political stability is a prerequisite for black
education to get back on track. As recently as 1980 we had a
70% pass rate (or equivalent) at matric level. Political
distrubances have all but destroyed the system. The Institute
of Race Relations has an interesting catalogue of disruptions
at black schools since 1990, boycotts, burnings stonings
and assaults on teachers, and demands like "pass one pass all".
I'll post these sometime. Current matric pass rate is below
40%. Interestingly enough, thr *rural* pass rates are *way*
above the national, and the worst cases are in places like
Soweto. There is no indication that this instability would
vanish under a non racial govt. It may in fact increase.

3. Education doesn't guarantee economic success, nor does it 
necessarily remove poverty and relative deprivation.

4. Extremely high levels of inequality will be a permanent fixture
in this society, regardless of govt. policy. Whites have always
had a head start, since colonial conquest, and have overwhelming
advantages in superior international contacts, generations of
superior education, accumulated wealth locally and internationally,
and incontestable domination of the upper reaches of the economy.
This would have been the case with or without apartheid.

5. South Africa is likely to remain relatively poor, and in the face
of burgeoning population growth, with a shrinking economic base relative
to that population. 
 
Gavan Tredoux
Dept Math / Dept Philosophy
UCT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (john kauta)
Subject: Re: A Joke
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:42:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.151932.29183@ousrvr.oulu.fi> peb@ee.oulu.fi (piotr brudlo) writes:
>
>The Top of Racizm:
>
>To drink
>
>    "Black & White"
>
>from two separate glasses

Years ago, there was this cartoon (I think it was in the Readers Digest):

Scene: A South African Bar. Four dudes at the counter - a white, a black,
       a "coloured" and an Indian.


The whitey orders the drinks: [of course! He has the money!]

"Give me one *white* horse, one *black* label, one *brown* sherry and one
*Indian* tonic"

[IN THAT ORDER]

:-) :-) :-)....Me likes that...me does...

J.K.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: peb@ee.oulu.fi (piotr brudlo)
Subject: A Joke
Originator: peb@tk9
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 15:19:32 GMT


The Top of Racizm:

To drink

    "Black & White"

from two separate glasses
From: gavan@UCT_elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics
Subject: Re: Conscription of Whites into the SADF
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:14:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucthpx.1992Jul26.151449.19302
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

scott@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
: Conscription is authorised by the Defence Act which empowers
: the Minister of Defence to create regulations governing
: conscription (who, for how long etc. etc.). Unlike acts
: of parliament which cannot be reviewed by the courts, the 
: Minister's regulations can. ECC launched a court case
: attacking the regulations on the ground that they are 
: discriminatory.
: 
: The point of the recent changes to the Defence Act was to allow
: the Minsiter to be discriminatory. As parliament is sovereign, 
: courts cannot inquire into the Act. ECC's case is still to
: be heard, but it contests the old not the new regulations.

Thanks to our inheritance of English public law, parliament is in theory
supreme. However, that doesn't mean the courts can't challenge acts.
After all, there is the question of whether the act was, in fact,
constitutionally passed, whether the clauses are contradictory, and
all sorts of other administrative law issues. There are cases where sections
of acts have been nullified by judging that they were so vague and broad that
Parliament could not possibly have intended them to be law. Many liberal
judges built up a whole lot of cases arguing like that. Could they do the
same for the Defence Act? Open question. Can't see the Appeal Court
throwing it out when Parliament has just specifically passed an 
ammended act with the sole purpose of keeping whites in the SADF. Maybe a
lower court could, in which case there might be a protracted delay
before the Appeal court get to it. 

Down with conscription!

Gavan Tredoux
UCT
From: henk@fudd.frcs.alt.za (Henk Coetzee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: A Joke 
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 15:14:18 GMT
Organization: FRCS mail/news uucp point


In article <1992Jul23.021029.27779@hippo.ru.ac.za> ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za writes:

  > 
  > In <1992Jul22.152551.27091@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> laing@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Peter  >  Laing) writes:
  > 
  > >In article <BrsM28.B5u@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, kautaj@copper.ucs.indiana.edu  >  (john kauta) writes:
  > >> 
  > >> Scene: A South African Bar. Four dudes at the counter - a white, a black,
  > >>        a "coloured" and an Indian.
  > >> 
  > >> The whitey orders the drinks: [of course! He has the money!]
  > >> 
  > >> "Give me one *white* horse, one *black* label, one *brown* sherry and one
  > >> *Indian* tonic"
  > >> 
  > >> [IN THAT ORDER]
  > 
  > >  You know, at the time this joke was published, it is very likely that
  > >  it would have been illegal for those four guys to stand at the same 
  > >  bar counter and order/drink a beer (or whatever) together. There were
  > >  even separate bottle store/off-sales where non-whites would have to 
  > >  go to buy alchohol.
  > 
  > Even this detail used to be catered for.  The jokes normally started
  > something like:  "Van der Merwe was standing at this bar in
  > Maseru (or New York)....etc".
  > 
  > -- 
Either that or it was the bar where the guys on the Castle Lager advert
used to drink before Joe or whoever left by train.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Henk Coetzee         |
P.O. Box 26305       |   More arms do not make mankind safer,
Arcadia              |   only poorer
Pretoria             |                    The Brandt report
0007                 |
Pretoria             |
From: philip@ziggy.stanford.edu (Philip Machanick)
Subject: Re: IPS:South Africa, U.N. Security Council
Reply-To: philip@ziggy.stanford.edu (Philip Machanick)
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:28:59 GMT

In article <Brr92o.531@acsu.buffalo.edu> osele@acsu.buffalo.edu (itiakorit j  
osele) writes:
> In article <BrpttE.G2q@news.cso.uiuc.edu> vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Vincent  
A Mazzarella) writes:
>>As if Zimbabwe or other nearby African countries (cf. other articles in
>>this group on Malawi, e.g.) are particularly democratic !!  Ha Ha Ha
> Cheap shot; being cynical eh.
> 
Zimbabwe has its problems but I would not consider it _less_ democratic than  
SA. Same for Zambia. Botswana and Namibia are 2 other countries in the region  
with good records. Malawi - definitely a bad case - and only now receiving the  
criticism it has long deserved. Used to be considered "friend of the west"  
during the Cold War. Mozambique and Angola are still on the way to democracy  
with a long way to go but still the trend is that way. As far as this trend  
goes SA is neither the best nor the worst.
--
Philip Machanick
philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
From: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: The point... why turn Gavin African?
Reply-To: mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:10:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.134634.9257@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>, gavan@UCT_elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
>mokaba@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>: Dear Jacot Guillarmod
>: You are right to question 7000% increased that was hailed by dear old
>: Baas (ag verskoon my) Dr (ag tog ) Mnr Gavan,
>
>Now it becomes 7000% rather than 6000%. Hyperbole? Vivid imagination?
>Oh no, more of this sneering "baas .. Dr" stuff. 
>
>: Plase post some budget numbers if you have any.. I cannot believe we are
>: spending only 5% of oour GDP or was that GNP on education...
>
>Those ARE the budget figures. How much of GDP does the US spend?
>Much less. Look it up.

We cannot compare ourselves with the USA for the simple reason that
they have in the past years invested heavily in the human capital...
remeber the land or agriculutural education grants that gave rise
to todays state colleges .... those were the days... the  US can rest
comfortably benefiting from the investment they made.. then
we ... hm.. .I wonder any way you are right the number you gave is 6000%
and not 7.. what about white statistics .., aboslute rand values in 1981
rand .. inflation and dioscout increases in enrollment... have you 
question the increase on those groungs.

[lot of static contained]

>
>G Tredoux
>UCT  
you have won Gav ... now we do not need to do anything with the aparheid
education.. In summary... all was well in 1979.. the kaffir was insy
plek.. they studied under uncceptably horrible conditions. managed 76
40 % quwstionable pass... that where they belong ... we can't spent more
money on mining because the US spends less.. and we will not improve our
road because the USSR does not.. in the same vein we do not need to above
6% in education ... and need not strive to be better.. lets leave 
UCT with a pool of black aplicants as small as they had in '79 that was
the right number.. Ja baas! We have been okay along untill the 
ANC came right Gavin... black parent we okay they paid their fees
subsidized education ... and things were okay..
lastly who cares sluit die komoniste toe.. hulle is mos parmantig..
should never be allowed to be education.. beside how the hell can I have
a nanny if these people get educated.. black wages was okay until
the mine workers union and alas they cause the mines to pay more money..
and undesirable  factor.. well.. in brief like all other before me
you have more time than I do .. I submit to yee almight Baas Gavan u
is altyt and heltemal korek..
Horray you have won
tata...
From: henk@fudd.frcs.alt.za (Henk Coetzee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Conscription of Whites into the SADF 
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 15:20:36 GMT
Organization: FRCS mail/news uucp point


In article <1992Jul17.160154.7170@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> laing@gn.ecn.purdue.edu writes:

  > 
  > I have just received my n'th call up to the SADF. 
  > I was just wondering how the SADF can still conscript
  > only white males to their services, even though all
  > the racial segregation/discrimination laws have
  > theoretically been repealed. Can someone please explain
  > to the net how the SADF is getting around this one?
  > 
  > Cheers,
  >         Peter Laing.
  > 

I also get them, where n is a large positive integer. 

It's easy to conscript whites. They've trying to ammend the Defence Act
to include a definition of "white male". It's one of the great pieces 
of apartheidspeak, and if I can track it down I'll post it to this group.
Gavan and co. will probably hail it as a fine definition of an ethnie.

What was fun was watching some general or other explaining to the nation 
that the 85% of called up conscripts who didn't pitch this month was a
normal thing, as many of them had got deferment or something. He wasn't
too sure himself, but he assured the nation that very very few people
were dodging the call-up.

Henk

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Henk Coetzee         |
P.O. Box 26305       |   More arms do not make mankind safer,
Arcadia              |   only poorer
Pretoria             |                    The Brandt report
0007                 |
Pretoria             |
From: linda@frcs.Alt.ZA (Linda Jacobson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: >>Theft of land
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:18:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: frcs.1992Jul22.191806.13176
Organization: Onderstepoort School of Veterinary Science, University of Pretoria

Thus spake hllhar01@uctvax.uct.ac.za:

> Again, I have no problem with all this, except that it doesn't
> interest me. [..]  I am not making any attempt at protecting
> Apartheid legislation, I'm merely pointing out that it didn't make
> such a large difference on a grand scale. [..] Apartheid didn't cause
> racial inequality in this country, it just made it visible to the
> rest of the world. 

I know you were talking about land. So you must forgive me on two
scores: for quoting you out of context, and for changing the subject.
If you argue that apartheid did not _create_ discrimination, class
distinction, racism, then I agree with you. If you argue that it did
not dramatically damage a huge number of people in all kinds of ways -
physically, economically, psychologically, then you are sadly
mistaken.

You seem to be using the argument that "because apartheid didn't cause
the bomb to fall on Hiroshima, therefore it isn't as bad as everyone
says it was/is." Not fair, not rational, and (to my jaundiced eye)
unacceptably cynical.

Try "Move Your Shadow" by Joe Lelyveld, if you want to know more about
the human costs of apartheid.

Linda
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: Somalia crisis in perspective
Keywords: Somalia, crisis, starvation, Africa, aid
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:18:19 GMT

In <BryCCo.608@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> kautaj@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (john kauta) writes:

>What happened to those *western* mercenaries who used to run the Comoros??
>Funny how silent the UN was during the whole ordeal (which lasted many years.
>I am not sure if these "soldiers of fortune" left the Islands). Maybe the 
>whole thing wouldn't have happened in the New World Order....

Living comfortably somewhere in Johannesburg, I believe.... or at least
the top dog is, some or other French colonel whose name escapes me.

They all left in quite a rush a few years ago.
-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african