From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:53:07 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


          -=> Quoting Hillel.e.markowitz to Bill Carlson <=-
 H> From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
 H> Date: 22 Jul 92 18:26:23 GMT
 H> Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
 H> Message-ID: <1992Jul22.182623.16217@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
 H> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 H> 
 H> In article <139283.2A6C6A4B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
 H> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes: >
 >
 >But all these are just side trips.  The point is: either Y'shua is the
 >Messiah; or He isn't.  We believe He is.  So, let me ask you: if He is;
 >what would truly be your response, - that is if you did believe that He
 >was Messiah ben-Yosef?  What would HaShem have to do in your life to
 H> ^^^^^^^^^
 H> 
 H> Was this a typo or do you really believe that y"shu was not in any
 H> way descended from David.  If you are claiming that this person was
 H> mashiach ben-Yosef, then he is a precursor and the legends involved
 H> state that he would fail.  In that case, what is your belief
 H> regarding mashiach ben-Dovid and why make a deity out of a lowly
 H> precursor.  Also wasn't mashiach ben Yosef supposed to come just
 H> before the mashiach?
Did I say that He was in no way descended from David?  No..., adding to
my words?  We believe that Y'shua not only fits [most] of the Rabbinic
concepts of Messiah ben-Yosef, The Suffering Messiah; but of the coming
Messiah Ben-David, -The Reigning Messiah.  And that Both are the Same
One - and you will see Y'shua not riding on a donkey in the Second
Coming, but with the clouds of Heaven.   Sure, the "time element"
of these arrivals are different than most Rabbinic writings; but, let's
look at some passges on Messiah ben-Yosef:
Rabbi Moshe el Sheikh, Chief Rabbi of Safed...
"I will do yet a third thing,  and that is, that  'they shall look unto
Me,'  for they  shall lift up their eyes unto Me in perfect repentance,
when they see Him Whom they pierced, that is Messiah,the Son of Joseph;
for  our  Rabbi's, of  blessed memory, have said that He will take upon
Himself all  the guilt of Israel, and shall then be slain in the war to
make  an  atonement  in  such  manner  that it shall be accounted as if
Israel  had  pierced  Him, for on account of their sin He has died; and
therefore,in order that it may be reckoned to them as perfect atonement
they  will  repent  and  look to the Blessed One, saying, that there is
none beside Him to forgive those that mourn on account of Him who died
for their sin; this is the meaning of 'They shall look upon Me...'"
     And the heathen will look unto Me to see what I will do to
     those who have pierced Messiah, the Son of Joseph.
     -Aben Ezra
     It must be granted him that says,   for  Messiah the Son of
     Joseph that shall be slain as it is written, And they shall
     look upon Me Whom they have pierced.
     -Talmud Bab. (Succah 52, 1)
          Rabbi Dosa, in his comments on Zechariah 12:10 (Sukkah 52a),
     also believes the Messiah b.Joseph will die. In context, Zechariah
     12:10 as well speaks of Messiah as being pierced. - (Mes: A Rab. &
     Script. Viewpoint / Yellin). [Targum Jonathan on Song of Songs 4:5
     and 7:4; Bamidbar Rabba 11:2; Ruth Rabba 2:14, 5:7 -(on Dan.12:11-
     12)].   [Luke 1:26, 2:39; John 1:45-46; Judg.13:5]
Surely you can see that these for the most part are the same as the
Messianic darshim  on the subject.  Let me ask you: why would that
be?

... 012 But, woe unto the house that the turnip enters :-) 210  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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