HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:17:53 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bishop Spong
              8 Sep 1992 16:45:00 GMT from
              <Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK>

Carol,

My choice of words was, perhaps, poor.  The use of the word "doubt" implies
that a person can doubt a particular doctrine without disbelieving in it
altogether.  If, however, a person completely disbelieves in one more of
the major points of doctrine, then that is the point at which I think
that they should disqualify themselves from being in a position of authority
within their particular church.  To say (as you seem to have been saying):
"I have personal doubts about the resurrection but I am working through
those doubts toward faith" is quite different from saying "The resurrection
never happened, and I will preach and teach accordingly."

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: christia@asuacad.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"christia@asuacad"
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:04:34 -0500
From:         RG1171@SHIP.BITNET
Subject:      Sorry - bad modem

Hello everyone!  Sorry I haven't written lately, but my modem has been
on the blink for some time now and I'm saving up to get it fixed.
Right now I'm using someone elses modem temporarily.
        Anyone interested in christian music, feel free to write to
me, as I'm always interested in this topic.  I have started a music
ministry called "Route 7", and I am interested in writing to those
who have any "inside leads" on what's happening in the industry.

        One area that I would like help with - does anyone have
access to the discussion list, "rec.arts.christian.music" on the
USENET News network?  I haven't figured out how to access this area,
or even know if I am able to.  If anyone could forward a couple messages
from this system to me, I would greatly appreciate it.

                In Christ,

                        Craig Mason
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Poem
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:19:30 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

Every now and then someone posts a chorus they like. Well, here's a poem.
It's by George Herbert.


Love bade me welcome: yet my soul drew back,
         Guilty of dust and sin.
But quick-ey'd Love, observing me grow slack
         From my first entrance in,
Drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning
         If I lacked any thing.

A guest, I answer'd, worthy to be here.
         Love said, You shall be he.
I, the unkind, ungrateful? Ah, my dear,
         I cannot look on thee.
Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
         Who made the eyes but I?

Truth, Lord, but I have marred them: let my shame
         Go where it doth deserve.
And know you not, said Love, who bore the blame?
         My dear, then I will serve.
You must sit down, says Love, and taste my meat:
         So I did sit and eat.

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: favorite verse
Date: 13 Sep 92 08:35:18 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Right now I guess I've got two, one from the Old, and one from the New:

"The earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord."

"Christ in you the hope of glory."
                                                  irini pasi, zane
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:36:42 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      For Sunday 13 Sept 1992

FOR SUNDAY 13 SEPTEMBER 1992

READING: Exodus 32:1,7-14
 (The people of Israel turn away from God to the worship of an idol;
but God, at the intercession of Moses, forgives them)

PSALM 51:1-18
 (voice of a penitent sinner, seeking pardon and forgiveness)

EPISTLE: 1 Timothy 1:12-17
 (The calling of the Apostle Paul as an example of God's mercy and
love even to His enemies and persecuters.)

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 15:1-10
 (God's concern for lost sinners, shown by the Parables of the Lost
Sheep and the Lost Coin)

PRAYER
   O God, forasmuch as without thee we are not able to please
   thee, mercifully grant that thy Holy Spirit may in all things
   direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who
   liveth and reigneth with thee and the same Spirit, one God,
   for ever and ever.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:30:32 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Confession - helpful or not?

>   But what I indeed believe is that it can indeed be helpful and profit us if
>we confess our sins that we committed against God to someone else. Let me tell
>you exactly what I find profitable here:
>
>* It's easier to rebuke Satan if he accuses me again, because I have a
> human witness.
>
>* It helps me resist the temptation the next time, because I know that
>  I'd have to go to the same brother again to confess the same sin
>  again.
>
>* It weakens my old self that is not willing to humble itself before
>  another man.
>
>Wolfgang <><


	I agree, and would add that it deepens the fellowship of believers when
we confess to each other, and talk in specifics about our trials and
temptations and failings.
	I live in a house with three other christian guys, and we started a
household prayer meeting on thursday nights *, inviting others to come if they
wanted.  One of the developments that really deepened this meeting was that we
became close enough that we could confess to God and ask ask forgiveness in
front of everyone there.

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu

(* It is a great night.  We don't take prayer requests.  We just start praying,
and keep on for an hour or two.  I recommend that others find/start such a
group.)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:18:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      APOLOGY

Dear Netters;

I would like to apologize to the list
as a whole for inadvertently posting remarks
Brad sent to me personally to the list.

Althouth there was nothing in his remarks or
my reply that was overly personal in nature,
it IS bad network etiquette to do so, and for
that I am

Apologetically yours,

Brian
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:04:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Bishops' examples

From:     "William M. Jordan" <IF20159@EARN.LATECH>
Subject:  faithful church leaders


>........  I think we have been presented with a
>false dichotomy: do we want orthodox teaching and bad behavior or
>unorthodox teaching but very good behavior?  I think the correct answer
>is that we should expect both orthodox teaching and good behavior from our
>church leaders.

Bill,

Agreed, mostly.

Who decides what is orthodox ?

Speaking to Orthodox people (via another list) I understand the church
decides by opening up a discussion and contemplating the matter before
deciding.

Is it not permissible that bishops be allowed to enter such a debate or
even start one ?   If a bishop can disagree with the presently accepted
definition of orthodox because of his experience with god's people, should
he not be allowed the integrity to say so and explain why, thus allowing
the church to decide ?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol A Long,  					DISCLAIMER - unless otherwise
IT Service,					stated this message contains
Southampton Institute of Higher Education	my opinion...probably only mine
East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
	UK Fax No : (0703) 222259		acknowlegements to author.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
===============================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Envelope-to: christia@asuacad.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"christia@asuacad"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:49:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Tradition

Dear Mark,

>        For consideration: the example of Holy Scripture.

>        Holy Scripture is that which was compiled by the Church from
>        the extant writings *on the basis of their conformity with*
>        Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition (not simply tradition) is the
>        guarantee of correct doctrine (orthodoxy).

Please cite your source for believing that the canon was compiled using
tradition as the criteria.

>        Doctrine which is contradictory to that of the original apostolic
>        faith should most honestly be given another name (other than
>        Christian) which more closely reflects the nature and source
>        of the belief. With regard to the idea that Christ will come
>        to establish a thousand year reign on earth, a name already
>        exists. The old belief was called "chiliasm", so the new rearing
>        of this heretical belief could be called "neo-chiliasm".

It's a lot easier to assign a label to a belief and call it heresy than
it is to dicuss it, I guess.  The key issue is not the label applied to
the belief but the truth or falsity of the belief, i.e. does it correspond
to reality or not.

>        Honest scholarship must not apply the name of Christian to
>        those things which were rejected by the Church long before
>        the Great Schism and the Reformation led to the legion
>        of denominations which call themselves christian and which
>        once again embrace, in one group or another, every previously
>        condemned false belief about Christ.

Are you saying that all christians who disagree with you are guilty of
intellectual dishonesty?  Are you saying that only your denomination
(I'm assuming Roman Catholicism given you mention of the Church at Rome)
is correct?


Brian
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:22:56 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      dates for New Testament writings

It has been pointed out on the list at least twice recently that
most Bible scholars, even most conservative/evangelical Bible
scholars, do not think that the New Testament was completed before
the 90's. For another point of view, arguing for an earlier date
(before 70), see THE NEW TESTAMENT REDATED. The author,
interestingly, is a Very Liberal Anglican Bishop, John Robinson,
notorious for his earlier work, HONEST TO GOD.

A capsule account of his argument, as nearly as I remember it:

There is a widespread tendency to use "rachet" arguments for late
dates for early Christian writings. A scholar arguing for a change
in the interval supposed to have elapsed between the writing of
Document A and that of Document B will practially always revise the
chronology by putting one Document later it had been put rather than
putting the other one earlier.

It is customary to argue that a reference in any New Testament book
to the destruction of Jerusalem must mean that the book was written
after 70.  But the nationalistic elements in Judea were on a
collision course with Rome well before 70. Given the repeated
uprisings, it did not require omniscience, or inspiration, or
political genius, or even a great deal of luck, to predict that
Jerusalem was going to be levelled within a generation.  There is a
European statesman (I forget his name, but surely someone will
supply it) who, upon reading the Treaty of Versailles, exclaimed,
"This is no peace treaty -- it is a twenty-year armistice!" He was
right, to the exact year. But no historian supposes that any book
that quotes him must have been written after 1938.

The New Testament references to the destruction of Jerusalem are
very general.  Anyone writing after the fact would surely have gone
into more detail.  Our Lord says, "Let those who are in Judea flee
to the mountains." (Matthew 24:16) But the historical evidence is
that the Christians of Judea fled to Pella, which is below sea
level.

For more arguments, and an elaboration on these, see the book. It is
(or was) available in paperback.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:57:00 EDT
From:         "Joseph_I.Scully" <21010JIS@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Praise report/Update on Kyle

Ken:

Before you run off on vacation, I want you to know what a blessing
your postings have been. I've only been on the net a couple of weeks,
but Kyle and the rest of you have been in my prayers. Have a good,
restful vacation.

"You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because
he trusts in You." (Isa 26:3)

In Christ,

Joe Scully
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: No True Church?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:24:22 GMT

nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham) writes:

>As I would use the words, this is not the same as saying that there is no
>"true church" and that God has deserted us.  I believe that God is present
>with all of us who follow Christ, and I see the collection of all Christians,
>Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and others, as together being the "true
>church".

Amen.  I have a post I'm preparing along these lines.  Stay tuned!

-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:36:51 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Tradition, Sola Scriptura and church "fathers."
              11 Sep 1992 11:25:00 EST from
              <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>

Dan,

I think that the term "fathers of the church" is valid in the sense that
Paul and John used it. Regarding all the councils and the decisions that
they made, it is helpful to understand that they were dealing with various
heresies when they met.  In the early centuries of the Christian Era, the
theology of Christianity tended to be formed in a reactive fashion.
Nearly every creed, every decision, was made in response to some threat.
One could ask why they bothered to address such issues -- after all,
isn't God strong enough to defend His own truth?  I think, however,
that God often uses His people to defend the truth of the Gospel.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:06:02 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Second parousia in the past?
              4 Sep 1992 19:48:13 GMT from <anachem@BRONZE.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Dear Fr Mark ;

Just a quick line here.
I plan to start a short thread on the question of "Righteousness."
I am not sure what flavour of priest you are, unless the "Fr" is some other
sort of designation.
Anyway, my thesis on the upcoming thread is : God imputes righteousness to
us, which belongs to another ... Christ Jesus. He, however, does not IMPART
the same, for inherent righteousness is a non-communicable attribute of the
Sovereign God-head which cannot be imparted, else, we would be part of the
Divine God. True Christians are viewed "in Christ" to use Paul's great thesis.



Jesse Carnes
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:59:04 CST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: ????? on the Second Coming
              at Sep 8, 92 2:14 pm

>
>Dear All ;
>
>Just an open question :
>
>"What were the initial RECIPIENTS of Pauline, Petrine, or Johannine letters to
>THINK when their respective Apostolic writers wrote in the following terms?" :
>
>"Beloved, THIS is the LAST HOUR."  |  "and as YOU hasten its COMING."
>"The END of all things is NEAR."   |
>"... in these LAST DAYS."          |
>"as you SEE the Day approaching."  |
>
>Jesse Carnes
>


Excellent question Jesse, and one I have thought of occasionaly..

You included something interesting here "and as YOU hasten its COMING"..
I believe that the church can both hatsen and put off the comming of Jesus
again. Mathew tells us that the end will come after the word is preached
to every nation (read people group). This has not yet been done..

As to if the early church thought that the return of Jesus was imminent, well
perhaps it was. Perhaps the early church was the closest that the christian
church has ever been to the proper Bride of Christ (with all its failings)..
Perhaps this end time revival of this last century, the restoration of
biblical practices/worship etc lend credence to the thought that the time
may not be too far ahead..

Too sum up, maybe they were closer to the return of Jesus as a church than w
we are now? I dont know.. Wild thought, non biblical basis so dont burn for it.


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:03:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Spiritual experience

I am not quite sure how to explain this but it is a bit of research I
am doing which I'd like your insights on.

Periodically, you get to hear of people who experience the "Presence of GOD"
(sorry about the jargon) in a physical way.

There is one Christian writer (I've forgotten who!) who wrote about being
accosted by God and being unable to continue cycling.

I have my own experience of being "held", I know others who talk of "seeing"
Christ, "talking" to Christ.

I am interested to hear how rare it is that Christian experience such things
and what others think, so I'd like to ask all or you to post me your thoughts
(directly or via the list)

To make life easy could you please use the subject line as a summary to state
your opinion and why you hold it e.g.

Spiritual experience - yes - had one
Spiritual experience - no - born sceptic
Spiritual experience - yes - biblical

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Carol A Long,  					DISCLAIMER - unless otherwise
IT Service,					stated this message contains
Southampton Institute of Higher Education	my opinion...probably only mine
East Park Terrace,
Southampton	SO9 4WW,   England		RELEASE - Repost at will, with
	UK Fax No : (0703) 222259		acknowlegements to author.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
===============================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:      UK.AC.SOLENT; 11 SEP 92 14:27:00 BST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:27:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.

Brian seems to be talking about the God given right to choose to be
saved or damned.

Isn't this in line with the scripture passage "I stand at the door and
knock" ?

Sorry, no ref's available - I'm at work.
What do you think ?
Carol L
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 09:56:55 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The unelectable elect.
              13 Sep 1992 01:00:36 GMT from <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>

Gareth:

Quick question: When did I say the Father is "forcing" men into conversion?

Also, please note, in trying to keep with a request from earlier this summer,
I am trying to avoid discussions concerning the "P" word. The request was
made to the entire list that we refrain from discussing the "P" word. So if
my answers are short or none at all, I hope you will understand.

Tom Brewer
From: ohoward@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Todd Howard)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Spiritual Gifts
Date: 8 Sep 1992 08:46:48 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM writes:

>Can anyone define what spiritual gifts are and how to tell which spiritual
>gifts I may have?
>                                JSTAHLEY@ATHENA.QUALCOMM.COM

A good discourse on spiritual gifts is 1 COR 12-14.  Paul here talks
of the different kinds of spiritual gifts.  I would suggest you read
this first to better define "spiritual gifts".

Paul writes "But eagerly desire the greater gifts." (1 COR 12:31 NIV),
and "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, ..."
(1 COR 14:1 NIV).  I know for many Christians the "desire" for gifts
can outweigh their desire for Christ.  Obviously this is not Paul's
intent.  Christ says "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, 
and all these things will be given to you as well." (MT 6:33 NIV)

How do you define spiritual gifts?  Read the word.  How do you tell 
what gifts you have?  Read the word. 

My intent here was a simple warning:  seek God, not his gifts.  Putting
God first will bring the gifts, not the other way around.

In Christ,

Todd
-- 
 "The statistics on death are in, and they're pretty convincing.  One out
  of every one people die."   -Unknown

Todd O. Howard (ohoward@matt.ksu.edu)