From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Raja i Papci
Date: 30 Sep 92 07:13:10 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Dear Muris (if I may),

thank you for the last posting. I'll try to reply as clear as possible:

===quote from your posting===
I am still confused with your intentions.  You are 
either trying to cover Serbian crimes with general phrases, as majority of
Serbs are doing today, or you know a little about ex-Yugo situation.  My
constatation is based on your usage of a few stupid Serbian lies and myths,
otherwise designed to function as a dogma: you believe and don't ask, if you
ask, you actually don't believe.  Let me try once more, and if you afterwards
feel urge to tell me that criminals are bad, and normal people are good,  it
is senseless for us to discuss further.
======end quote====

No! you didn't understand, and I'll show you exactly where:

====quote from your posting====
Drina wasn't crossed by ordinary criminals, it was regular Serbian Army,
followed by few paramilitary groups, just to confuse the matter.  Sarajevo is
bombed due to decision of the highest and official Serbian authorities.
Theses authorities are elected, and supported by vast majority of Serbs.
You must understand, it is not an accident, it is conscious policy of one 
country.  If people who crossed Drina, bomb Jajce etc. are criminals, in that
case equasion Serbs=criminals holds.  Since, Serbia perpetuates, finances and
exercises all of the events you mentioned as a criminal deeds.  And, all 
Serbs are supportive, even if they are not so keen being personally involved. 
====end quote====

I agree with you that it was a decision of the highest Serbian authorities!
In my previous postings I accused them and I still do accuse them! What
they have done is absolutely atrocious! No question about it! I agree
with you and all of you who condemn this!

But, not all citizens of Serbia are supportive not even all Serbs are
supportive. The thruth may be that even the majority od Serbs are not
supportive. Did they elect these authorities? It seems so. But (and I
am not trying to excuse anybody, but to accuse even more) these elections
were in many ways a farce: all the media were totally controlled by
the Communist party (who later changed the name as you know into
SPS). I was at the time in Belgrade and I voted against them as did
almost all the people I know. The situation was ridiculous and still is:
the opposition parties had two major drawbacks: they didn't have
any way to get their message out (just maybe on the streets of
Belgrade and the local Studio B radio station and TV station.). And
they lacked money, materials, organizational structures, etc...
And also, they were not united, but have fought among themselves!
They didn't have a chance to overthrow SPS even if the MAJORITY
of voters voted for some other party, because their votes didn't
add up. So SPS won! I can't tell you whether THE MAJORITY of
SERBS were actually for it or not, but let's say that the majority
(more than 50%) were for. Still there is an opposition, an opposition
which is appaled by what subsequently happened. This was my point
about "not all Serbs are papci"!

=====quote from your posting=====
>	hatered toward other NATIONS! At this point, most of the
>	PAPCI are Serbs. But are you really ready to say that
>	there are NO PAPCI among "SVI OSTALI"? (Not in order to
>	excuse the Serbs - but in order to fight the EVIL!)

It is not an issue. It doesn't mean anything.  We are all the same, that's for
sure.  Why do you raise that in this moment?  Who pretend to be "heaven's
nation"?  
=====end quote=====

The fact is that the leaders in all of the Republics were playing games
with the lives of our peoples. If they didn't know that what ALL of them
were doing is leading to a civil war: a fact that any ordinary person on
the street could tell you two years ago, then they were and are not only 
stupid and incompetent, but criminal: The fact is that they all provoked
each other, fueled enormous amount of ethnic slandering and haterid, dug
up ghosts from our rich history closets... They all set us up on a barrel
of gunpowder and then gave a mach to the most crazy ones! Oh, no, I am NOT
defending Milosevic/Karadzic/Arkan/Seselj/(long list of criminals)! I am
only also accusing other leaders of at least total blindness (if they
didn't know who they were dealing with) and of endangering their own
people by playing right along the same lines! THis is why I raise this. 
I repeat that I don't want to diminish anybody's guilt, on the contrary! 

====quote form your posting===
Very funny, 'some Serbs', and, yes, Milosevic with Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
You forgot Kucan.  Being humanist dictates you to recognise current evil
and real killers.  The problem is that Karadzic/Milosevic/Arkan IS SERBS,
there is popular support for them, and nobody realy protests.  
=====end of quote====

Let me remind you: the FIRST city occupied by military tanks and the
first casualties of war fell in BELGRADE in March 1991. If you don't remember
let me just refresh you memory - and give some information to the ones
who really didn't know:

There were huge demonstrations in Belgrade in March 1991 - only 4 months
after the "democratic" election of December 1990!!! (SO much for the
support for the governement). These demonstrations were lead by the students, 
who wanted to liberate the TV from the monopoly of SPS in order to create
a medium free of propaganda and lies. (If you are interested and can watch
PAL system, I have a tape where you can clearly see the tanks). These
demonstrations were stoped by TANKS and water, and there was even two dead
(one student and one policeman).

Second, the whole month of June this year, the Univerities in Sebia were
on strike, demanding immediate resignation of Milosevic.

Third, for a whole week staring July 13 (Vidovdan) there were mass
demonstrations in front of Skupstina (National Assembly). The number
of people who showed up every day is estimated in hundreds of thousands, and
by some accounts, at least 1 million demonstrated all together.

Forth, before and after this summer's mass demonstrations, there are ongoing
everyday demnostrations against this war by lighting protest candles in
the park in front of Skupstina.

Fifth, I already mentioned earlier, that there is a huge number of deserters
(I said earlier about 40.000, but some claim about 100.000 - whichever,
I don't know which number is a better estimate), people who don't want
to kill their own people, for dishonorable and false causes...

There are other, minor examples similar to this...

So, you see, it is not "very funny" and not "some Serbs" meaning one or
two... And MILOSEVIC/KARADZIC/ARKAN/SESELJ/etc... unfortunately ARE Serbs
but so ARE others. That is why this war is the worst criminal civil
war based on complete lies about various NATIONS. (Please don't misunderstand
me: I mean lies that the governments gave their own people in order to
make them fight among themselves! - not just lies about Serbs, lies about 
Muslims, about Croats, about Albanians...) Even you say that:

====quote from yourposting===
The misleading explanation you gave is only
one in the row of excuses prepared in Belgrade, with intention to start a
war.  BTW, whatever Croatia did in 1991, haven't mattered anymore.  The war
was prepared long before, Croatian communist leaders were already called
"ustase".  "Certain individuals" came later as very nice support.
====end quote====

That's exactly the point: If this is not true (and at the moment I
don't know, and I am checking it) than it's a lie prepared by Serbian
government. That is exactly waht I just said. And if it is true: than
in the circumstances they were, Croatin goverment was totally irresponsible
to say the least, incompetent, and more: they knew that they were just
putting a flame into an already impossible situation! (But true or not,
it waas allowed to become a "fact" - people believed it and acted out
of these belief, and NO GOVERNMENT disclaimed it, made an effort to
CALM down the situation: on the contrary!)

===quote from your posting===
let me cry and beg:
Dubrovnik, Kertes, Vukovar, Karadzic, United Nations, Sarajevo, Ethnic
Cleansing, Bijeljina, Seselj, Manjaca, Crncevic, Jajce, Kozarac, Jovic,
Raping, Omarska, Property Transfer Certificates, Mazowiecky, Milosevic,
Mladic, Refugees, My Mother and My Father and My Sister and My Yard and
My Childhood and My Job and My First Love and My Children....
====end quote===

And let me join you (no irony, no cynicism, really)! and add to this:

My childhood, My first love, My parents (who are dead), My family who
I don't know anything about in Sarajevo, and my other family who had to 
emigrate, My Children, My country - the most beautiful one...

====quote from your posting===
Again, I have problems understanding Serbian affiliation
for fascism.  Look around, Ana, all those Vidics, Malenovics, Stojanovics,
Pavlovics, Draskovics, they are far from Serbia, they are getting real
information, and they are doing their best to confuse the truth.  Even
deserters, students, remember their behavior with Mr Levy.  The handfull of 
normal and reasonable people on the other side, can't explain why whole nation
started to behave crazy.
====end of quote===

I also have problems understanding affiliation with fascism : Serbian and 
Croatian, and Bosnian, and anybody's. (You have here those who
sign with "Za Dom Spremni!", you have here islamic fanatics). 

=====quote from your posting===
>	All I am defending is sanity: do look around and see who are
>	the ones who brought us in this hell, who profit from our
>	fighting and misery, who HAVE POWER to send troups or to stop
>	them, who decide about destiny of millions of ordinary "raja",
>	who play games with all of us! We can only defend them if we
>	all desert! 

I don't understand you.  The whole world clearly denoted Milosevic and Serbia
as initiator and perpetuators of Balkan's war.  If you have problem with that
simple fact, I can't help. Do you know what is happening?  Are you misinformed,
or you believe that we deserve to vanish?  Do you advise us to surrender?
We, Bosnians, shouldn't and mustn't desert.  We have to defend ourselves,
it is our highest duty and right.  If Serbs desert, the war will stop.  If
Bosnians desert, they all will be killed.
====end of quote===

I hope that you understand now: I do not defend MILOSEVIC/KARADZIC/ARKAN/
SESELJ/(other criminals among Serbs). I couldn't agree more with you...
I called everyone to desert! Everyone! Because, you see, Bosnians are afraid
if they stop they will all be killed, and Serbians (people - not government
and leaders) are afraid that if They stop they will all be killed, and
Croatians are afraid that if THEY stop they will all be killed! And because of
that they ALL go (the ones who do!) and kill and are killed... and then
they go even more, to kill and be killed, and the circle is pulling
them all down, down, down. And all I am trying to tell EVERYONE is that
the war will sooner be over, and far less people will be killed if more
people desert and refuse to fight! And YES - the more you are able to
BELIEVE that the others are just ordinary people like you, and DISBELIEVE
your own government, the more chances there are for the war to stop.
I know, Muris, how hard it is to believe something that at this moment
looks like a total fantasy! I know, all of you others who read this
that I seem quite silly... But I beg you to just for the sake of
the argument try to pretend for 5 minutes that what I said was
true: that all of the ordinary citizens in Yugoslavia are in the
same position: fooled by their leaders to believe that the others
are against them and out to kill them and thrown against each others
like gladiators in a ring, to fight and kill each other while the
UNTOUCHABLE KINGS watch and win amazingly high bets. And STOP
being gladiators... At least on the network! 

I apologize to anyone I personally insulted, that was not my
intention.


  With hopes for peace

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Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu