HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: More raspberries for Kolodney
Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:52:26 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Several other things, Kolodney.
.
I made a comment to you as to whether you criticize black leaders,
black culture out of your knowledge and experience of black strength
and not white fear.  You failed to understand why.
.
I can see both the positive and negative of an organization
like "the noxious NOI." I can see what it made of Malcolm and
several other people.  Unfortunately, you prefer to see the
negative, to prove your point about it being entirely evil.
.
I can see the positive aspect of an organization like the Jewish
Defense League and the Ku Klux Klan.  If anything, they give a sense
of self-worth to lower class whites, and Jews concerned about the
defense of their people against anti-Semitism.
.
It does not mean by a long shot that I sympathize with
these racists.  But I can see why these people gravitate to such
organizations out of a sense of fear and disempowerment.
.
Furthermore, it's not racism promulgated by these groups that I am
entirely worried out.  It's the ordinary person, like this cat on
"Nightline" last night who said that Clinton was too much for the
blacks. People like this who try fair means or foul to drive blacks
moving into a community, to deny blacks or other people of color any
kind of rights.  They don't have to join the KKK or the racist
skinheads in order to promote their views.
.
This is not so cut and dried as you think.  I reiterate, you should
begin to examine yourself, dude.
.
Secondly, to recap my ideas about 'progress.'  I may be
left/progressive, but I do not totally worship technology or
so-called progress as conservatives (as opposed to rightists) or
even lefties do.  I question technology.  I question what progress
does and what it does not do.  Lefties can be great worshippers of
Western Civ, too.  Marx thought that Native Americans and blacks
were backward, because they hadn't gotten the word.  Sorry, but I
don't buy that progress line, hook, line and sinker.
.
Thirdly, and this is for Michorowski. You made a rather stupid
remark about my talking about the murder of millions of women who
were healers, midwives and herbalists.  Well, dude, most of those
women were persecuted for being witches.  They were burned at the
stake, for instance.  So much for the enlightened views of Western
Civ.
.
The first "big time" instance of a black woman being persecuted for
being a witch was Tituba, of the Salem Witch Trials.  She was a
mixed black woman, of both Carib Indian and African ancestry.
Several books have been written of Tituba, who disappeared into
obscurity after pleading guilty, most notably "Tituba of Salem
Village," by Ann Petry and a book (I cannot think of at the moment)
by Maryse Conde.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: MALCOLM X: From An African-American
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 26 Jan 93 02:09:50 GMT

In article <stovall.727996779@ficus.cs.ucla.edu> stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall) writes:
>Josefina Velasquez <josefina@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>>Great Leaders do not drop from the sky, nor are they born great.  Leaders
>>are born of the people's struggle, and if the peopple are waging a great
>>struggle this struggle must give rise to great leaders.
>
>>Malcolm X became a great leader at a time when African-Americans were
>>rising up, at a time when Black people were taking our future into our own
>>hands.
>
>This has the ring of truth. I have been wondering why there were so many
>great black men walking the earth during the 60's: Malcolm, MLK, Huey P.,
>Rap Brown, John Coltrane...
>
>There do not seem to be such men today, but maybe its because we as a
>people are not "waging a great struggle" as we were in those days. But
>how are we to become galvanized into a revolutionary wave of historical
>force without the inspired presence of such men? Perhaps we should return
>to the simple grass-roots organizing principles of the early civil rights
>movement, but with a goal not of fundamental rights but rather knowledge
>of self. 

Great men, indeed, but not without great women as well, and not as foils
for their brothers either.  Please look up and read about Sojourner
Truth and my personal heroine -- Ida B. Wells.  These women fought hard
and painfully for the truth as they saw it, despite being of the flavor
of person who "isn't supposed to get involved with such matters." 

Regards,
Janis C.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: A bushel of raspberries for whom it concernes
Date: 28 Jan 93 05:35:02 GMT
Distribution: soc
Organization: The Devil's Advocate

In <1993Jan27.123802.17059@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> q2tj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:


>This is a very different kind of conquest than some other cultures
>that prefer to kill a bunch of people and steal whatever they can.
>Or other cultures that are highly ethnocentric and so contemptuous
>of others that they avoid them.  That's why I think it is ridiculous
>to blandly assert that "Euros, Indians, Africans, Chinese all had empires
>of conquest....and these are part of human nature....we are 
>brothers afterall....and just by circumstance on empire got the
>upper hand....but it's basically the same sort of thing, and the
>same sort of morality applies in these different cases"

You're right, the European concept of universal truth was obviously
morally inferior the the Indian Caste system, and Han Chinese
Chauvinism and Islamic Fundamentalism.

-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Makala P Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Racists oppose Afro-Cuban appointee to State Dept.
Keywords: Mario Baeza, Assistant Secretary of State for Latin-American Affairs
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:26:48 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

(Daniel Rosenblum) writes:

> one member of the C-ANF said that they didn't
>want a Black person representing the interests of Cuban-Americans
>in the U.S. government!
> You might also want to
>say that you are against the undue influence that the Cuban-
>American National Foundation, an organization that represents the
>most right-wing diehard opponents of Castro who won't stop at
>anything to have their way, on U.S. foreign policy.

It might be important to note that the majority of the Cubans in America
who are conspiring against Castro are white and formed the rich-class that
that in tandem with orgainised crime had a strngle hold on and ruled Cuba
before the revolution.

I understand that a significant proportion of Cuba (60%??) is black. These
people believe that life would be worse were it not for Castro (rightly or
wrongly)and would die for him. 

The majority of Cubans blacks fear the return of the old racist and exploit
ative ways. Note also that the majority of Cuban exiles in the USA are white.
No question that they would not be admitted if they were black...



makala

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Subject: Re: MALCOLM X: From An African-American
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:19:39 GMT

Josefina Velasquez <josefina@igc.apc.org> writes:

>Great Leaders do not drop from the sky, nor are they born great.  Leaders
>are born of the people's struggle, and if the peopple are waging a great
>struggle this struggle must give rise to great leaders.

>Malcolm X became a great leader at a time when African-Americans were
>rising up, at a time when Black people were taking our future into our own
>hands.

This has the ring of truth. I have been wondering why there were so many
great black men walking the earth during the 60's: Malcolm, MLK, Huey P.,
Rap Brown, John Coltrane...

There do not seem to be such men today, but maybe its because we as a
people are not "waging a great struggle" as we were in those days. But
how are we to become galvanized into a revolutionary wave of historical
force without the inspired presence of such men? Perhaps we should return
to the simple grass-roots organizing principles of the early civil rights
movement, but with a goal not of fundamental rights but rather knowledge
of self.

_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Burning women
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:37:24 GMT

In article <1jpdk8INNjet@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>To end this lunacy, I have a couple of books for you guys to check
>out.
>.
>Barbara Ehrenreich and Dierdre English, "Witches, midwives and
>nurses: A history of women healers" speaks of the persecution of
>women by the Church, and how these very women became targets of
>witch hunts, burnings and trials.
>.
>Jean Donnison, "Midwives and medical men:  A history of
>inter-professinal rivalries and women's rights" speaks of the
>enmities and differences between doctors and folk medicine
>or 'natural' practitioners like women without licenses from the
>state.

How about the _Malleus Maleficarum_, that top-seller brought to you by
the courtesy of Pope Innocent the III and his flunkies Kramer and
Sprenger that started it all?  Try reading it, if you want to see a
full-blown _Mein Kampf_ with the Lord(tm)'s blessing.

Regards,
Janis C.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: The Answer Comes from Within
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:15:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.183045.183@netnews.noc.drexel.edu> glovercj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu writes:
>White America and even better white supremacists(which includes white and black
>people) can never understand the plight and oppression of African-Americans. No
>one should expect that the answer to our problems will come from them. If White

I think they can do better than they are doing, but they are so locked
up in thinking that their way of thinking is The Canon Way(tm) and
everyone else is Outside.  You know, how white male history is "history"
and the entirely of the black and female experience on this our Earth is
crammed into the Black Studies/Women's Studies courses.  If they would
just find the courage to get out of their own skins, I think
sympathizing and understanding on at least a basic level would not be so
impossible.  They are just scared to death to find out that they can be
a peon, just like the rest of you.  Their inferiority complex about it
comes not from an innate inferiority that they are given as a
birthright, as it is with AfAm people and women, but because they are
panicked at not feeling superior all the time.  

Regards,
Janis C.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Art Johnson)
Subject: Re: Anyone know James Earl Jones' politics?
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:18:26 GMT

In article <1jnj81INN5ur@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu  
(Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
> ..
> ..
   [...some stuff deleted...]

> I complain about Limbaugh at the far right and the guy that does
> "The Rest of the Story" or something.  Those news talk shows on the
> radio are pretty bad as well: KGO here in SF is really drumbeating.
>  Depressing.  OKay with you if you wanna think he's light.  I don't
> and his fans, 99% all white, are with him all the way.
>

     Paul Harvey is the one that does "The Rest of the Story". But he's  
very mild compared to Limbaugh, IMO. Once in a while, I watch his  
late-night TV show (endure is a better word), because I think it's  
important to keep an eye on him and his posse of dittoheads (I believe  
that that's what his fans call themselves). He's abrasive, arrogant, and  
extremely inflammatory. The irony is that he claims that what he says  
isn't dangerous because "nothing I [Limbaugh] say means anything. It's all  
just entertainment", and then in the next breath says that "liberals  
should watch what they say, because words _mean_ things, and people act on  
the basis of what their heroes say."

Arthur Johnson
johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Racists oppose Afro-Cuban appointee to State Dept.
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:38:51 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <1993Jan26.070809.28661@netcom.com> by mdouglas@netcom.com (Hokh'Ton):

> >The only problem is that if I'm not mistaken, a LARGE proportion of the 
> >Marielitos were BLACK.  Obviously they didn't see much of a future for 
> >themselves in Cuba.  I wouldn't call that being willing to die for Castro.
> > . . .
> 
> 
> >Christopher Morton
> --------------------------------------------
> 	Yes, a large portion of the Marielitos was Black. Many of them,
> however, were releases from prisons, given the choice of joining the boat
> brigade or being further imprisoned or executed. I don't think that they
> represent a very good sampling of the Afro-Cuban population.

That may be, but it depends upon your perspective.  Many people criticize
the percentage of Blacks in the US prison population and point to that as a
symptom of serious problems with the way the society treats Black people.
If you're willing to lend credence to that assessment, wouldn't it also apply
to CUBAN society?  Is this indicative of the way in which Blacks are treated
in Cuba?

> 	
> 


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"Read my lips, no new Haitians.  Ack!" - Bill the Prez
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Andrew Hacker in Palo Alto
Date: 27 Jan 1993 18:40:32 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

I forgot to say that Andrew Hacker's talk was videotaped for
"Reading Writers," a show sponsored by Cable Coop's Channel 6, the
public access station for Palo Alto. For all you Peninsulans, it
will appear February 14--check your listings please!
.
Omonike got mad cause I won't be around at that time to record it!
Two more days!  Two more days!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Racists oppose Afro-Cuban appointee to State Dept.
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:39:56 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <Jan.25.14.39.21.1993.263@andromeda.rutgers.edu> by dmr@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Daniel Rosenblum):

> The Clinton administration either has nominated or is about to
> nominate Mario Baeza to the position of Assistant Secretary of
> State for Latin American Affairs.  Baeza is an Afro-Cuban and a
> resident of Englewood, New Jersey.  Although his political views

Is he in favor of maintaining the embargo?


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
"Read my lips, no new Haitians.  Ack!" - Bill the Prez
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Christopher Morton
From: sawyer@utahep.uta.edu (Lee Sawyer)
Subject: Justice Thurgood Marshall
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Texas at Arlington High Energy Physics Group
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:17:00 GMT

  Less than a week after posting a review of "Simple Justice" to s.c.a.a, I
regret to hear today Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice,  
U.S. solicitor general, U.S. 2nd Court of Appeals judge, and perhaps most
importantly, successfull NAACP lawyer who successfully argued the Brown vs the
Topeka, Kansas, Board of Education school desegragation case. He was susccessful
in 29 of the 32 cases he argued before the Supreme Court, and was a champion of
personal liberties as a justice. He was born in Baltimore, MD, and educated at
Lincoln University and the Howard University Law School.

  He was 84 years old, and been in poor health. Reportedly he had intended on
swearing in Albert Gore as vice-president.

  So passes another American hero.

       ================                           
         Lee Sawyer                                  

         Dept of Physics                          
         Univ. of Texas                            
               at Arlington                        

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: shumba@iastate.edu (Valentine Sinemani)
Subject: Racism
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:05:23 GMT

I am trying to come with a program to discuss with residents in my
dorm.(grad students from all over the world) I would like my residents to
have an insight of What is racism in America and how they view racism in
their cultures.

please suggest areas to focus on or how I should Word the Topic
You can e -mail directly to me shumba@iastate.edu 

I will be very grateful

--
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Gabrielle and the heat she's taken
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 28 Jan 93 01:33:05 GMT

I'm not going to point to anything in particular, but I've noticed that
Gabrielle has taken some serious shit in the past week or so, and I
wanted to say that I have NEVER ONCE found anything objectionable in
her postings, and as what many people would term "white," I have never
found her opinions threatening or hateful or racist against me in the
slightest or white people in general.  Yes, she is angry.  Isn't she
allowesd to be pissed-off?  Jesus, just let someone blow off some damned
steam and LISTEN to them for a damned change.  White America has had the
luxury of ignoring what minorities and women have thought and how we
have seen the world for generations.  Would it kill you to just listen?
She is well-reasoned and rational, as are most of the people here.  

I'm familiar with the concept of getting compliments and support in
e-mail and then getting dissed on the net (am I using this word
correctly?) and I didn't want to perpetrate it by e-mailing her
privately and telling her I support her postings and opinions and then
saying nothing on the net.

Regards,
Janis C.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,alt.politics.correct,soc.history
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:52:14 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <1993Jan22.022147.18352@samba.oit.unc.edu> Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:

# >And exactly *how* is this "cooking" the data?
#
# A person with twenty late loan payments is supposedly unfairly
# denied a mortage which is given to a person with only one late
# loan payment.

"Cooking the data" usually means bending the facts to fit one's own
preconceptions.

In this case it seems that *you* are cooking the data.  As I
understand it, the report said that for applicants who had perfect
records, there was no discrimination against blacks, but that for
people whose records were less than perfect, whites were more likely
to get the loan than blacks with the same shortcomings.  You keep
trying to convince us that the comparison was between blacks with
defects and whites with perfect records.  Why are you trying to
distort the facts if not for the intellectually dishonest purpose of
confirming your own prejudices?

# Were people with equivalent credit defects compared? No.

It would be virtually impossible to set up a statistical analysis
which did *not* compare people with equivalent defects.

# The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
#   North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
#      Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.

I should hope not.  If you're in any remotely scientific field, I'm
sure UNC would be embarrassed to death at your ignorance of elementary
research concepts.

David
From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Gabrielle's empty basket (of raspberries!)
Date: 28 Jan 93 05:31:05 GMT
Organization: The Devil's Advocate

In <1k6nelINNaph@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:


>Arthur Johnson said, hold it, Gabrielle.  Most people are
>Westerners.  I submit that this is true.  Some of my cultural and
>intellectual training has been at the reluctant behest of whites.
>So I am a Westerner.  Afro-Americans are, unfortunately, Westernized
>(sounds like a drycleaning process!) as well as Africanized.  But I
>also question Western thought and Western actions and how it does
>and does not pertain to me and my folks.

Face it Gabrielle, you are just as "Western" as I (or any of your
other nemesises on this list) am.  Yeah you can criticize "western"
thinking (and practices) So can (and do) I.  But somehow you seem to
think that because you are black and I am white, I am "of" the West
(and thus have a stake in defending it), while you are really an
outsider who has no stake in the existing order (and thus may
criticize "honestly").

Sorry to have to hold up a mirror to you, but isn't it obvious that
someone like yourself, who spends as much time using (and enjoying) an
international computer network funded largely by the pentagon and
multinational corporations, clearly does have a stake in the existing
order (and is a part of it).  Your whole lifestyle (and your future
hopes to be a widely published author) are entirely dependent on
living in a society such as the U.S. which produces sufficient surplus
to support artists such as yourself.

Of course I'm not saying you shouldn't be critical of *our* society.
But don't pretend that you are somehow a passive victim of it all
while random white people, like myself, who are in no better a
position to change the fundamental relations of power than you are,
are somehow active perpetrators.

-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner
From: HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Dellums now head of Armed Services Committee
Date: 27 Jan 1993 18:11:20 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

Look out, yall. The Honorable Ronald V. Dellums of the People's
Republic of Berkeley is now head of the House Armed Services
Committee.
.
I hope brotherman watches his Ps and Qs, cause I suspect now people
are gonna start gunning for him. Unlike Les Aspin, brotherman never
lost the faith.
.
Otherwise, I say, right on. Stay on the case long enough, and look
what happens...seniority.