HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.boats

Several people have commented about the recent designs in sailboats
where the emphasis is on the impractical: large beds, limited rigs,
poorly laidout cockpits, etc.  Here, for what it is worth, is my
explanation for why you are seeing these boats.

First, get it out of your heads that these boats are designed with
sailors in mind: they are designed for people who have always thought
it would be neat to sail but never have, or maybe went out on a
friend's boat once.  These people see sailing as sparkling waters,
warm sunshine, pina coladas (sp?), girls in bikinis with large floppy
hats--you get the picture.  That is what they want (come to think of
it, don't we all :-?).  The boat builders give them what they want.
They don't want lots of sails to worry about and all that nonsense.  I
have seen lots of these boats on the lakes in Colorado--if the weather
is OK, they put up the sails, sheet them in as hard as possible and
point the boat wherever they want to go.  If they are overwhelmed by
the wind strength, or otherwise cannot make it where they want to go,
they take the sails down and start the engine.

Now don't get me wrong, I am *not* sneering at these people; that is
what they want to do and the people who sell boats to them know it,
and build accordingly.

I have several friends with boats which they moor on a lake near here.
Knowing of my sailing background, they often invite me up for a day to
go sailing.  I hate those days and turn down as many as I politely
can.  It starts with everyone pottering around the lake under
sail--provided there is not too much wind.  At about midday, someone
is designated to be the moored boat and everyone else rafts up to that
boat.  From then on, its drinks, sardines on toast, barbeque, and
social chitchat.  Usually, during the afternoon, the wind gets up but
everyone ignores it.  About 6 o'clock, boats start to return to their
own moorings and everyone exclaims what a wonderful day it has been
and we must all do it agin soon.

Now, about wheel steering.  Actually, I quite like it--as long as
there is no flop in the connections.  No, its not as sensitive as a
tiller but if you keep at it you might be surprised at the amount of
feel you do get--plenty more than you need for just cruising, in my
opinion.  As to why people are prepared to spend an extra $1K on them,
well, that's obvious--they look "cool".  Of course, I am much too
modest to agree with her, but my wife says I look much more handsome
and dashing with a wheel than with a tiller.  (That's like getting
money, I'm not going to argue with that :-)

B.S!
From: bsmith@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Brian Smith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 00:31:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Scuppers
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: rec.boats

In rec.boats, francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

    The real problem with cockpits is that they are no longer cockpits. 
    The deck used to be the surface that you walked and worked on, and
    the cockpit was a convenience for dangling the feet and affording some 
    protection. As I remember, the Nor' Sea 27 is quite close to the
    original concept. Perhaps cruising designs could return to small cockpits,
    raised sides and scuppers. One of the nice things about my first boat,
    a Stone Horse, was the cabin roof that extended from side to side. I have
    never quite understood what the 4" wide walkway on either side of the cabin 
    was supposed to achieve.

One of the first big boats I crewed on as a keen young lad was a
gaff-rigged cutter with a huge bowsprit and a topsail (I suppose it
was a "jackyarder").  It had flush decks, with those old-fashioned,
roof-shaped hatches and skylights--the ones with brass rods installed
to protect the glass.  It had a flush deck and raised sides that were
about a foot high--we called them "bulwarks" but I am not sure that
they really qualified for that terminology.  There was a channel all
around the deck and large scupper holes in the sides.  If I remember
correctly, the term "scupper" implied the complete drainage system,
including the channel and the scupper holes (any terminolgy buffs care
to comment?).  I can't picture it exactly, but I think it had a very
small cockpit for the helmsman and the tiller.  The rest of us sat on
deck fully exposed to the elements--marvellous stuff!

B.S!
From: jhwelch@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Sail salvage w/power (brainstorm)
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:23:41 GMT
Distribution: usa

> The boat is in 4' to 6.5' of water depending on tides,  the keel is
> toward shore and now pretty much burried into the sand and muck. She's
> on her side (mast toward river, bow upstream) at about 30 degrees.

Sort of being in the right place at the right time (e.g. at my 
club during a storm waiting to see if my boat would cut its mooring)
I've had lots of opportunities to salvage stranded boats over the years.

Being on the mooring committe at my club I have access to our
mooring barge which seems well suited to dropping a handy mushroom
anchor way off the bow to pull against and using the lifting 
mechanism to slowly winch the stranded boat out.

My basic technique is to heel to boat over using a long rope leading
from the top of the mast.  This will raise the keel up to more
of a horizontal position so it's not digging in and at the same time
the fat edge of the boat is pulled over adding extra displacement.

If the boat you're rescuing is in 6' of water all you should need
to do is exert a strong, steady pull from the masthead.  I didn't
catch the boat's normal depth.  If the keel is still badly
stuck I'm at a loss.

I've many attempts to pull a boat off by using a large power boat.
There are several things to watch out for here.  First, you won't
have the same amount of control compared to some kind of winching
method.  Sudden jerks might break something and your boat might
start drifting off course which means you won't be able to pull
for any length of time.

One method I saw the pros use this summer on a boat which had run
on top of some rocks at a super high tide (boy, was that a
sight 6 hours later 1st thing in the morning when I woke up
to some commotion!) was to attach giant air bags for a little
extra lift.  Those plus the 32' salvage boat going full blast
pulling the stuck boat straight ahead (note that I recommend pulling
off from the side if possible so the keel will skid along) was
just enough to raise some hope.  Pulling the mast over with
our mooring barge finally did the trick - I'm not sure what
the outcome would have been if I'd not been on vacation that
week and sleeping in the mooring area!

Good luck!

Jonathan Welch  VAX Systems Manager  Umass/Amherst  JHWELCH@ecs.umass.edu
From: schnee@sail.ncsl.nist.gov (Rick Schneeman)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Full Batten Main - Problem
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:44:22 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]

: bentson@CS.ColoState.EDU (Randolph Bentson) writes:
: 
: >I saw something that may be a good alternate to lazy jacks.  Does
: >anyone know of the operation of the Dutchman Sail Flaking System?
: >It's from Martinus Van Breems, Inc., 571 Riverside Avenue, Westport,
: >CT 06880, (203)454-0222.
: 

I use the Dutchman system on my Island Packet 31'. The system works
very well, much better than the lazy jack system. While at the Annapolis
Boat Show I happened to see a demo and pick up the literature to see if
the system has changed in functionality over the years (my system is
an 87), but it is exactly the same. If you read the brochures it includes 
an excellent description of the whys and hows the Dutchman system outperforms 
the lazy jack system. Even some companies (that I won't name) that swore
by the lazy jack method, have since incorporated the Dutchman as an
alternative to LJ'ing. The only disadvantage to it that I have seen is
because of the integral nature of the Dutchman lines within the mainsail
itself; i.e., the sail must be re-engineered for the lines and a doubled
topping lift is needed where the lines intersect with it. Of course,
this creates more of a pain in the offseason when you want to take off
the mainsail, you must completely de-install the main with the topping
lift, and then use a boom crotch or a spare halyard as a makeshift
topping lift while your storing/lofting the sail. But its worth it....

=======================
Richard Schneeman, NIST
Building 225, MS-B266
Gaithersburg, MD 20899
rschneeman@nist.gov
=======================
From: dre@ember.Eng.Sun.COM (David R. Emberson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Rename rec.boats to rec.outdoors.boats
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:38:03 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: ember


Excuse my typo.  I meant, "Doesn't that seem a tad redundant."
From: bartley@spss.com (Dennis Bartley)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Daggerboard design question
Date: 22 Jan 93 20:18:03 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

bowers@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Al Bowers) writes:

>>I was hoping to tap into the net wisdom for help in designing
>>a daggerboard for my sailing dinghy.
>
>Oh oh...
>
>:-)
>
>>Currently, the daggerboard measures about 10" front to back
>>at hull level (tapering to about 7" at the bottom), extends
>>about 35" below the hull, and sits in a daggerboard well that
>>measures about 16" front to back.  Thus the dinghy could easily
>>accomodate a daggerboard about 60% bigger front to back.
>
>You don't say what kind of dinghy this is.  It turns out, for the
>optimal design, that is does make a difference.  The optimum for a
>Sabot will not be the same as for a Sunfish, say...
>
>Again, hull shape matters quite a bit...
>

Let me try a similar question for a specific boat. A Penguin is a 12
ft. hard chined dingy, minimum boat weight is 140 lbs, minimum crew
weight is 290 lbs. Unfortunately, I don't remember sail area offhand.
It certainly isn't a high-performance boat.

The centerboard is fixed in size (span and depth), but I believe the
shape isn't defined. Is a NACA section appropriate for such a boat?
If so, which one might be good?
From: rock@cse.ucsc.edu (Rock Pfotenhauer)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: charter sailing in greece or turkey
Date: 23 Jan 1993 04:41:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: arapaho.ucsc.edu

We (two adults, two kids) will be in Turkey and Greece this March and
April. We would like to charter a boat for a week of sailing in one of
these countries. I have had a fair amount of experience sailing dingies,
but not much with keel boats. (8 week class on Moore 24's) 

If it's not insane I'd prefer to go bareboat, but if that is either
stupid or not possible because of lack of certifications a crew would be
okay, provided they were willing to teach me. 

We have a minimal budget for this. (That's why we are spending our time
in these countries.) 

I'd be grateful for any recommendations. In particular I am hoping for
advice on whether bareboat is advisable given my experience, places we
might go to or contact to find inexpensive charters, accounts of other
people's experiences doing this.

Thanks,
Rock Pfotenhauer
From: ben@smartstar.com (Benjamin Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: wooden boat construction
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:05:17 GMT
Organization: SmartStar/Signal Technology
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Greg Fox;BV-7980;47-720;LP=A (gregf@tekig1.pen.tek.com) wrote:

> I have thought of constructing it by ripping the planking 1 1/2
> inches wide (the thickness of 2 x X lumber) and about 0.2 inches
> thick and gluing the edges. ...

You might look at a book covering strip plank canoe construction.  For
canoes, there are no ribs.  You might want a beamier form, and
therefore require them--anyway there's a decent book called something
like "The Stripper's Guide to Canoe Building" which covers construction
techniques and some heuristics for design.  I don't know where you'd go
for in depth design coverage.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Benjamin Ellsworth                            E-MAIL  ben@smartstar.com
SmartStar Corp.            
120 Cremona Dr.                                   VOICE  (805) 685-8000
Goleta, CA    93117                               FAX    (805) 562-1111
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                   All possible disclaimers apply.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mike@gilligan.East.Sun.COM (Mike Roncadori)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Jet Skis
Date: 25 Jan 1993 09:16:24 -0500
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc., Vienna, VA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: gilligan.east.sun.com
Keywords: Okay, here goes...

I can't recall who posted it, but someone said "I used to get
annoyed by jet skis, until I rode one."

My wife and I fit into that group... We liked them so much,
we bought 2 last summer. We've also gotten rid or our boat.
After seeing a general attitude of disdain for jet skis (by
boaters in general, not just here), I figured it was best not
to talk about them on this newsgroup.

So anyhow, my wife and I have 2 Sea Doo SP's, which are the dou-
ble seat sit-down type things. Aside from being a lot of fun,
they are a great workout... Kind of like riding a motocross bike
on the water. Most days, we leave the lake thoroughly tired, but
enthusiastically awaiting our next chance to get out there.

One thing you notice is that Jet Skis have a really BAD repu-
tation... It's probably deserved in some ways, because I've seen
some people do really dumb things on them. When we first towed
ours down to the launch ramp, the woman tending the park said
"Those aren't jet skis, are they?". I said "They're the sit-down
type, and my wife and I are pretty careful on them.". She said
"Well, don't go making any trouble, or you won't be welcome here
anymore.". I was kind of taken aback, because I'd never received
a 3rd-degree like that when towing a boat. It kind of drove home
the point that most people don't like jet skis, and we were going
to have to make sure that we didn't get in anyone's way. We fina-
lly won her over, but it took a while.

It's kind of strange, but it seems like the sailboaters are the
nicest to us. As long as you give them plenty of room, and travel
at a reasonable speed, they always smile and wave.

We found that the best thing to do is find a flat-bottom area that
is free of weeds, stumps, and rocks. If it's shallow enough, the
larger boats won't approach, and you can play to your heart's de-
light. That's the safest, because jet skis are really maneuverable,
and they can kind of scare larger boats that can't stop or turn
on a dime. It definitely gives you a different perspective, be-
cause you have to drive much more defensively when in the company
of larger vessels.

Looking forward to another wet summer...

-- Mike

-----------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions - not my employer's
From: O.B.Schou@lut.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: charter sailing in greece or turkey
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:55:13 GMT
Reply-To: O.B.Schou@lut.ac.uk (OBSchou)
Organization: Loughborough University, UK.

In article <1k0uu0INN22s@crcnis1.unl.edu> price@helios.unl.edu (Chad  Price) writes:
>rock@cse.ucsc.edu (Rock Pfotenhauer) writes:
>
>>We (two adults, two kids) will be in Turkey and Greece this March and
>>April. We would like to charter a boat for a week of sailing in one of
>>these countries. I have had a fair amount of experience sailing dingies,
>>but not much with keel boats. (8 week class on Moore 24's) 

...

>
>My brother-in-law used to manage the Falcon sailing centre in Baudrum,on the 
>southern coast of Turkey. It's primarily flotilla sailing forthe less 
>experienced, but is not extra-expensive. Falcon is anEngland-based company 
>with mostly UK passport employees. I would guessthey advertise in British 
>magazines. If you are really interested, Ican get a phone number, but David is 
>in New Zealand now, and has nointernet access, so it means either a letter 
>(min 2 weeks round trip or a phone call.  

Falcon is now under the Sovereign flag - there are lots of photos in
the latters' catalogue with Falcon all over the place...

This seems to be the major player for UK-originated flotilla holidays -
all travel agents gis us the same borchure.  Lots of other charter
organisations operate in the Greek/Turkish waters, though, just look
through the ads in (UK) Yachting Monthly.

We are sortof thinking of a Villa-Flotilla (7 days in a hotel with RYA
based training, then 7 days afloat!)  Cost in July for a 28 footer in
Greece about 700 pounds/person/fortnight, half board.  Price varies
dramatically if you change one or more parameters (people sharing, time
of year, extras...)  Wife is a non-sailor, I am a dinghy and cruising type.

Bertil.
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski)
Subject: Re: Wheel steering on small boats
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 17:51:44 GMT

Francis Muir writes:

                                         ...but are there not boats
>where the wheel turns agianst the direction? Wasn't this the "old-
>fashioned" way? Stefan should know that one.
>

I'm ashamed to admit that I don't actually KNOW. I've simply
assumed that the wheel on a 3000-ton windjammer had the same
"polarity" as the wheel of a Beneteau 42. I'll try to look
it up when I get home. I'm sure someone on the net will have
the answer, though. One possible clue: the helmsman would
always stand on the windward side of the wheel, and would 
put the helm "down" to tack ship. (I always say "Helm's down!"
instead of the prissy "Hard-a-lee!")

Good question.

Stefan

P.S. Is that Fido's paw-print in my Latitude 38?
From: hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Hanners)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Jet Skis
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:17:38 GMT
Reply-To: hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Hanners)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Annapolis, MD

In rec.boats, meyer@dbsun.uucp (Don Meyer) writes:

>"Staying away" from other boats isn't the solution -- assuming that
>a normal boat to boat distance is kept.  Trying to say that there
>is no inherent reason for a PWC to stay further away than a any other
>type of boat.

Nope can't agree.  What you say makes sense *if* PWCs were driven like
*boats*.  But I can assure you that, in my neck of the woods, nothing
could be further from the truth.  Our typical jet skier is back and
forth, stop and spin, suck water, up and off, and back again.  Their
wakes remind me of a plate of spagetti.  No problem if a couple hundred
yards off.  But I've regularly been splashed, once while on the hook
at dinner in the cockpit... can't tell you what that did for my dis-
position!  Most times, it's unintentional and the driver makes a gesture
of apology as he departs.  Sometimes... well, you get the idea.  Now,
*that* is too close.  And so is IMHO 60 feet when the craft is *probably*
going to spin either directly toward me or away, I don't know which, in
the next second or two.  But I'm quite confortable with 60 feet or even
less separation for most boats on constant, predictable courses.

>Can we all just agree that boating requires knowledge and attention, and
>that lacking either of these can lead to tragic results on *any* type
>of watercraft?

Sure... I'm just suggesting that expecting *that* of many of (especially)
the younger members of our society, on jet skis, is like bringing in
the lottery.

-- Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert J. Hanners         "My comments; only mine."          *DIASTOLE* 676673
CD, NSWC, Annapolis, MD                              hanners@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: meyer@dbsun.uucp (Don Meyer)
Subject: Kawasaki PWC (was: Re: Split rec.boats?? and Jet Skis)
Organization: BioMerieux-Vitek, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:30:47 GMT

Hi Steve.  Kawasaki has two "high performance" the 750SS which was released
last year and is essentially the same for this year.  The newest one is
the 750SS Xi which has dual 40mm carbs, new exhaust pipe etc.
Not sure which one you are refering to.

I've ridden the 750SS and was quite impressed (I'm not that experienced, so
take my comments with a grain of salt).
The Xi hasn't been available until this model year so I doubt that anyone
other than industry "insiders" have actually ridden one.

Don

-- 
" 'Cause you see son, it's one of my responsibilities as a parent to wean
you from life's joy and prepare you for the relentless heartache that is
adulthood." -- Earl Sinclair to Robbie
    =========================================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: linda@wendy.net.com (Linda Hill)
Subject: Re: SF Boat Show
Organization: Network Equipment Technologies
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:24:46 GMT

In article <50700072@hpscit.sc.hp.com> davea@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Dave Angelini) writes:
> 
>   I think the Alemeda in the water show in april will be better. If anyone
>is planning to buy any gear this may be the time. I was able to get West 
>Marine to give me the same price as the Defender add in the January Lat-
>itude. The final price was without sales tax and shipping!!!

West Marine has a lowest price guarantee , so they will always match
someone else's price - you don't have to wait for a boat show.  They may not
be happy about it, but they'll honor it.

-- 
Linda V. Hill                           "Nakia", Hans Christian 33
Network Equipment Technologies          Email: linda@net.com
800 Saginaw Drive, 23.2.3               Phone: (415) 780-5785
Redwood City, CA 94063 			Fax:   (415) 780-5001
From: schnee@sail.ncsl.nist.gov (Rick Schneeman)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Binoculars Revisited
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:25:52 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]

I am thinking of purchasing the Steiner Commander 3 (was Admiral, since
discontinued) 7x50's. Does anyone have any input? Also, has anyone used 
the digital fluxgate sensor version with the digital range and bearing
through the lens?

--
=======================
Richard Schneeman, NIST
Building 225, MS-B266
Gaithersburg, MD 20899
rschneeman@nist.gov
=======================
Newsgroups: rec.boats,rec.outdoors.fishing
From: schludermann@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Subject: FOR SALE:ESKA 7.5 outboard 
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:33:45 GMT

I have a 1990 ESKA 7.5 for sale. It has less than 20 hours on the engine.
It pull starts easy, runns, smooth. Price includes two 5 gallon tanks,
& 10 cans of 2 stroke oil. The engine is located in Austin, Tx. I would
like offers over $350.

Kris
Newsgroups: rec.boats