HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jhpace1@eos.ncsu.edu (High-Tech Crazie)
Subject: Re: Marines, are they needed?
Organization: Secret_NCSU_group
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:58:47 GMT


From jhpace1@eos.ncsu.edu (High-Tech Crazie)


I'm not in the Armed Forces yet, but I understood that Marines on a Navy ship
were to provide security on board and have ship-to-shore amphibious missions
if necessary to finish an assignment.  Marines establish beachheads, first-
strike missions from Navy ships, and lay foundational work down for the Army
and Air Force to finish.

Hasn't the Marines been taken off Navy ships?  I thought I saw a TV newscast
about that last year.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generic disclaimer:  These thoughts and writings are my own unless otherwise
                     noted - although Jerrold my twin may think them too.

Jeremy H. Pace        |  The Vindicator          Eph. 6:12
jhpace1@eos.ncsu.edu  |  High-Tech Crazie
NC State, Raleigh     |  Electrical Engineering

"Peace, through superior firepower." -  Minos V motto, ST:TNG "The Arsenal
                                        of Freedom"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Infrared adsorbtion by H2O
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:00:00 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul16.195349.734@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> sherwood@fenris.space.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford) writes:

>I think that modern missles use a combination of target tracking methods, no  
>one method is fool proof.  This also explains the rather significant 
>increase in cost.
>


I remember watching a documentary of the Soviets in Afghanistan. The
helicopters kept lauching red flares every 5-6 seconds. My guess is 
that these would be effective against handheld missiles like the Sting-
er but might not fool a Sidewinder.I think these flares were pretty 
tiny.. pistol size perhaps, since a helicopter would have to carry 
hundreds of rounds at the rate they were using them. 
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)
Subject: Re: V-22 Osprey crash ?
Organization: Cornell University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:10:48 GMT


From wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Thomas Schoene)

In article <1992Jul23.184745.20798@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>,
manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan) writes: 
> I caught the tail end of a local newscast about an Osprey crash, 
> killing 6 or 7 servicemen.  Since I haven't seen anything in the
> group about it, I was wondering about the the accuracy of a) the
> news item, and b) my hearing.   
> Anybody out there know anything ?  If true, I wonder what impact
> it'll have on the future of the whole program ...
Unfortunately, both you and the news article were correct.  This was the second
crash involving a prototype of the Osprey.  This one was headed to Quantico for 
some sort of operational testing.  The details of the crash are not yet clear
but the initial reports made a couple of points.

1)The crash occurred as the Osprey was transitioning from horizontal to
vertical flight (or vice versa?)

2)Eyewitnesses reported a flash or puff of smoke from the engines just before
the crash

They have recovered the flight data recorder and are going to raise the a/c in
the near future (it went down in fairly shallow water).
-- 
Tom Schoene
wwo@cornella.cit.cornell.edu  -or- wwo@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever you're holding all the cards why does everyone else turn
out to be playing chess?"

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Officers
Followup-To: sci.military
Summary: Soviet professinals did it
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:29:47 GMT


From jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)


In article <1992Jul17.191321.28318@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> crowl@jade.cs.orst.edu (Lawrence Crowl) writes:
>
>From crowl@jade.cs.orst.edu (Lawrence Crowl)
>
>In article <1992Jul15.131842.26664@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>
>dzimmerman@falcon.navsses.navy.mil writes:
>>do we need this hard division between officers and EM's?  Personally I think

>The People's Republic of China adopted a rank structure no class distinctions,
>for political reasons related to class being counter-revolutionary, or
>something.  Anyway, they abandoned it as unworkable and went back to the class
>distinction.  I don't know what problems they encountered, but perhaps some
>enterprising person...

The Chinese Communists didn't use ranks because they were deemed ideologically
unsound. They fought against the KMT and the Japanese using elected commanders.
All units had commitees which discussed tactics plans etc all 'democractically'
When the PRC was established they brought in a lot of Soviet experts to help
train and organise the PLA. They recomended the establishment of ranks on the
Soviet model. These were retained until the Cultural Revolution (I think) when
Mao abolished them again. Deng XiaoPing has reintroduced them. Although it
may sound stupid to fight without officers and by commitee, it actually worked
rather well for the Communists while fighting a guerilla war. One big problem
in the KMT army was the corruption of the officers who would steal and resell
their mens rations, clothing and even weapons - very hard to do when you're
elected. Also because there was non-regular-type fighting it was very hard to
stop soldiers running away. If they didn't want to fight they could leave and
there was little anyone could do to stop them. By involving the rank and file
they felt it was *their* war and so they stayed around. Also with all the
soldiers dispersed it was impossible to communicate with them so they had to
appoint their own commanders anyway. It also let non-communist forces fighting
with the PLA-to-be keep the officers they were used to and liked. All up not
too bad solution to a difficult problem.
There was a split in the PLA leadership between the pro-Soviet 'regulars' and
the 'liberation war' radicals. The leaders were respectively Chu Teh and Lin
Piao (old spelling for both). The Korean war was fought under the pro-Soviet
commander whose name I forget. During the Cultural Revolution Lin Piao and
his faction came to the front although eventually there was a split with Mao
because they were too radical and the Army moved back to the Party.

>  Lawrence Crowl


Joseph Askew


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: twh18@isuvax.iastate.edu (Phoenix)
Subject: propeller planee's anti-torque problem
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:30:08 GMT


From twh18@isuvax.iastate.edu (Phoenix)

	If chopper needs a TR to counter the torque, how come the
problem driven plane doesn't?
	If anyone could reply in by replying by mail, I would
really appreciated it, thanks in advance!
				Ming

	"Sorry if you guys think my passage is too short, but when
the first time I typed it, I forgot to put a title on, so
the message system couldn't dliver it and I have to retype it
again, BRIEFLY of course, that's why."

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: Marines, are they needed?
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:25:24 GMT


From "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>


Jeremy Frank writes:
#game system supposes
#that the Iranians have a Marine brigade or two, again no backup.  Now

Back before the fall of the Shah, I recall a photograph in National
Geographic of Iranian Marines/Naval Infantry exiting a hovercraft landing
craft onto a beach. It was a good sized hovercraft, about the size of
an LCAC. What's left after 13 years....?

As to what nations field effective Marine forces, IMHO any nation which
takes the trouble to purchase specialist vehicles like the AAV-7A1 (formerly
LVT-7A1) takes amphibious operations seriously:

(other than US) Argentina, Brazil, Italy, South Korea, Spain, Thailand,
and Venezuela.

There was film footage of Argie LVT-7s during their invasion of the
Falklands.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS
From: caina@merrimack.edu
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Brigade of the American Revolution/Continental Line
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:55:34 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA


From caina@merrimack.edu

   Does anyone know how I could get in touch with the Brigade of the 
American Revolution or The Continental Line.  Myself and some of my associates
are trying to start up a recreated Revolutionary War Unit and we need to
get in touch with either of these two groups.

  Thanks in Advance
   Alex 
Newsgroups: sci.military,soc.history
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 29 July, 1942
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 12:57:25 GMT


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Wednesday, 29 July, 1942

German tanks capture Proletarskaya and form a bridgehead over the Manych
River.

Japanese troops recapture Kokoda, New Guinea, and the Australians withdraw
to Deniki.  Allied aircraft prevent two Japanese transports from landing
reinforcements on the island's north coast.

The London Combined Production and Resources Board is formed, headed by
British Minister of Production Lyttleton and US Lend-Lease Representative
Harriman.

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker			            military@att.att.com
Send submissions for "50 Years Ago" to military-request@att.att.com

"... one of the greatest dangers is the submerged mine, which gives no
warning.  More submarines are reported missing from this cause than from
any other." - Admiral William V. Pratt, USN, Retired
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Subject: Re:  M16A1 ammunition vs M16A2 ammunition
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:58:36 GMT


From fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)

If you check out fm 9-13 page 159 appendix note 1 & 2
it says "Heavy ball cartridge is not designed to fire in
the A1" (it is even denoted by a green tip)
"Light ball is authorized only for M16A1"
The orange m856 tracer is even orange tip for A2 and SAW
The Red m196 is specified for the A1 only.
I'll find out more in a couple of weeks once I get back 
from AT and can look into it more. When someone who throws
grenades for a living tells me its got a 3 second fuze I'm
not going to doubt his word and count to 5 before throwing.
When that armourer said "No, dont do it" thats good enough
for me. I even carried my caps and C-4 in the same pack..
not recommended.. but WTH, I still got all 8 fingers :-)

 Hey boss..I need another cabinet in here for my FM's 
 or do you have someplace else I can put all these IBM 
 manuals 
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I DONT CARE IF I SOUND CONFUSED, I KNOW WHAT I MEAN !!!

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Subject: Re: Cadences
Keywords: NOTE: INCLUDES LANGUAGE WHICH MAY OFFEND YOU
Organization: The Puzzle Palace, UKentucky
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:04:17 GMT


From morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)

>From "Craig A. Anderson" <msc9203@geovax.edinburgh.ac.uk>
>
>A couple of paperback books that may be of use to you are "Cadences, The 
>Jody Call Book, Volumes I and II", they are edited by Sandee Shaffer 
>Johnson.  

A friend of mine once collected over 75 cadence calls for an aural history
project.  The area in which I grew up was chock-full of veterans, and he
simply asked around at the local American Legion/VFW/AMVETS chapters.  It
was rather interesting to hear the 80-year-old (at the time) WWI vets sing-
ing cadence calls.  If you find some local veterans, you'll find some ca-
dences that never made it into Johnson's books.  

In addition, some military posts are open to the public, especially when
basic training graduations take place.  If you live near such a post, go
to a few such graduations; you'll pick a few of the newer cadences.

Here's one that you probably won't find in [Johnson]; it's a double-time
(running) cadence we used in D-1-2 (basic training, FT Leonard Wood, MO):

	Momma told Sally not to go downtown
	Too many Engineers hangin' around
	Sally went down there one fine day
	She came back in a family way

	Three months later, she started to swell
	Six months later, she was bigger than hell
	Nine months later and out he came
(gutteral growl on last line)
	It was a little Engineer with a ball and chain


-- 
 morgan@ms.uky.edu    |Wes Morgan, not speaking for|                MORGAN@UKCC 
 morgan@engr.uky.edu  |the University of Kentucky's|     ....!ukma!ukecc!morgan
 morgan@ie.pa.uky.edu |Engineering Computing Center| morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
     Mailing list for AT&T StarServer S/E - starserver-request@engr.uky.edu
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:42:34 GMT
Organization: Indiana University


From creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)

In article <1992Jul22.170635.20599@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
>a whole battalion of Germans? The way the movie had it he and three
>others marched for miles herding the Germans along until someone 
>would take them off their hands.... 
>
>(The movie, as many that were made then appear now, was of full of 
>overacting - the pacifist Kentucky backwoods boy who wanted to be a 
>conscientious objector but was forced by circumstances to make a 
>one man attack on a German machinegun nest and use turkey psychology
>to attack the flank of the German battalion and pick them off one at
>a time...This I don't find far fetched but the part about marching 
>off with several hundred prisoners I do...)

   That was Alvin York.  The movie starred Gary Cooper, but the details of
capturing all those Germans are true.  I think the way so many were captured
was that the Germans, having been picked off as they were, thought they were
outnumbered, so surrendered without a fight.  I believe they may have also
captured an officer who ordered many more of his men to surrender.  I think
part of it had to do with the Germans seeing many of their comrades being
marched captive, so they just assumed they should surrender too.

   I believe Sgt. York was a pacifist because of his religious beliefs
(Quaker?).  I can't remember how he got into a combat role, but it was after
lots of soul-searching.  Also, he wasn't a sergeant at the time of his
heroism; he was promoted because of it.

   Overacting?  Maybe.  That's the way they made movies 50-60 years ago, so
you have to judge it in that context.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Associate (civilian) Member, United States Naval Institute
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: some civil war firsts.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:36:13 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul12.122235.19629@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM| fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

|From fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary)

|In article <1992Jul10.022734.22920@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM| Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott) writes:
||Someone may have already mentioned this but I believe the Civil War was
||the first time the world saw massed infantry attack against fixed
||positions of such lethal firepower with the resulting catastrophic
||casualty rate.

|During the American revolution, the British assault on Breed's Hill (e.g.
|the battle of Bunker Hill) took 1064 casualties out of a force of about 
|2000. I think this was fairly typical for the period, since the big 
|supprise to the British wasn't the high causualties, so much as the fact that
|colonial militias had held up and fought well against a professional army.


This is interesting because back in my Napoleonic Wargaming days it was
made abundantly clear that at the time of Napoleon most units would be-
come disordered, break and run way before casualties became significant. 
It was hard for me to understand this at first, but if you think about 
how important ordered formations were to effective prosecution of warfare 
at the time, it doesn't take too much imagination to see what a little 
disorder, miscommunication or confusion could do to the formations which
were so necessary. A related problem was loss of control - cavalry units 
were prone to this, continuing a charge in pursuit of a fleeing enemy.
Once this happened the unit was rendered ineffective until it could be
rallied and brought under control. Not too easy in the heat of battle,
once NCOs and officers have lost contact with their men and confusion
reigns.

The difference with the Napoleonic Wars and the Civil War was the effec-
tiveness of infantry fire. My guess is at this time most infantry attacks
were carried out in skirmish order and defence was for the most part 
behind cover. Close ordered formations would have been suicide. 
















-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: mpc@biosys.apldbio.com (Morgan Conrad)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: Altered history of warfare
Keywords: cavalry
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:55:29 GMT
Organization: Applied Biosystems Inc, Foster City, CA


From mpc@biosys.apldbio.com (Morgan Conrad)


In the recent discussion on cavalry, 

pshyvers@pyrnova.mis.pyramid.com (Peter Shyvers) writes:


>Bravo. In fact, with the possible exception of the Indian wars of the 1850's
>to 1870's, mounted troops have never operated independently of large bodies
>of infantry.

(sarcasm on - sorry, I can't resist)
Hmm, I seem to remember Genghis Khan's cavalry operating independently.
(sarcasm off)

  Seriously, Peter makes good points, and his comments are right on
concerning most *European* armies.
  However, the Parthians and Central Asiatics, such as the Turks and
Mongols, made special efforts (remounts, arrow reloads) to allow
their mounted fighters great independence from infantry.  Or, they
had the infantry ride camels!


Morgan Conrad         live so that you 
Applied Biosystems    can stick out your tongue
mpc@apldbio.com       at the insurance
415-570-6667          doctor             archy
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Phalanx Ammo
Summary: Materials properties of DU
Keywords: radioactivity toxicity
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:40:27 GMT


From saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs)

Two observations that have come up in this discussion: With a half-life of well
over a billion years, and being primarily an alpha-emitter, depleted uranium
really can be handled with no attention to radioactivity. 

On the other hand, the toxicity of soluble uranium compounds isn't safe to
ignore.  In deep ocean, corrosion of spent rounds will generate soluble 
uranium compounds and something is likely to absorb them.  If it hasn't been
examined to death already, it would make a reasonable research project in
environmental chemistry.

Other than that, the metallurgical properties of tungsten and uranium are both
so unfriendly that I'd be surprised if the free-market delivered cost of 
projectiles made from one was more than a factor of 2 different from the 
other.  The processing should be much more expensive than the material, with
a cost advantage to uranium, if there's a difference.  Some of the processing
cost to enrich uranium may be getting charged against the waste product here,
if the DU is really that expensive.
                                       Steve


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: tiirola@utu.fi (Timo Iirola)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Keywords: bizarreness
Organization: University of Turku
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 13:35:56 GMT


From tiirola@utu.fi (Timo Iirola)

sun330!ur-guh.com!smith@uunet.UU.NET(Russ Smith) writes:


>From sun330!ur-guh.com!smith@uunet.UU.NET(Russ Smith)

>Why is there a "tradition" of executing spies caught during
>wartime? What makes a spy sufficiently different from any other
>soldier that the spy should be killed?

I was told in the Finnish Army that spies aren't soldiers because
they don't wear uniforms. And because they are not soldiers they
don't have the soldiers' rights.

Timo Iirola
tiirola@polaris.utu.fi




Newsgroups: sci.military
From: mmzn@rice.edu (Mark Mazina)
Subject: Re: Mac's return as Vicksburg.
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:00:36 GMT


From mmzn@rice.edu (Mark Mazina)


In article <1992Jul20.132317.24885@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, hcobb%fly2.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Henry J. Cobb) writes:

|> 	MacArthur's reconquest of the Phillipines offered the same result as
|> Grant's capture of Vicksburg.  The enemy was split into two weaker pieces that
|> could not easily recombine.
|> 
|> 	The reestablishment of the oil embargo upon the Japanese doomed their
|> fleet to immobility, ...
|> 

I think more credit goes to the U.S. Navy's submariners for any "reestablishment of the oil embargo" - they were efficiently sinking the tankers.  No
transports, no oil for the home islands.  See van der Vat's The Pacific Campaign
among others...(like Mahan's original works  :-))

Mark
From: mat@uunet.uu.net!mole-end
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: propeller planee's anti-torque problem
Summary: Gyroscopic Precession and Maneuvering
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:02:11 GMT
Organization: :


From mat@uunet.uu.net!mole-end

In article <1992Jul26.180428.27983@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, asp+@pitt.edu (Anandeep Pannu) writes:
> From asp+@pitt.edu (Anandeep Pannu)

> All planes have this torque problem. In fact one of the reasons tail draggers
> are harder to fly is that the torque from big engines and big propellers
> makes them difficult to control on the ground. ...

I have read that this `problem' was used by pilots of WWI aircraft, which
had a Truly Huge rotating mass (the crankshaft was fixed; the `block'
assembly turned) to perform maneuvers that were otherwise impossible, and
these included using gyroscopic effects.

Would anyone care to explain some of these maneuvers?
-- 
 (This man's opinions are his own.)
 From mole-end				Mark Terribile

 uunet!mole-end!mat, Somewhere in Matawan, NJ
Xref: sparky sci.military:8201 soc.history:6736