HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: qi and science
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:28:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: sei.1992Dec14.132854.16055
Organization: Software Engineering Institute


14-Dec-92 geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland) Re: science and ki
>Again it seems your love of all things Chinese has led you to badly overstate
>things, Peter.  Western science is a tool for deciding whether or not 
>something is real, and a "whole bunch" of western philosphy and "medicine"
>has gotten thrown into the dumpster when their ideas and claims could not
>be backed up, as well.  Demanding properly defined and verifiable experiments
>and evidence is not "narrow-mindedness"; it's just plain smart. 

I have no quarrel with scientific verification at all (see post by me just
before this one).  I was referring to the narrowmindedness of
scientists--something with which I am intimately familiar.  There is a *lot*
of good anecdotal evidence in support of the qi (prana, for all you yogis out
there), but if you were even so much as to bring up the possibility of
measuring or defining this in most "scientific" circles, you would be laughed
out of the community.  I'm talking about a state of very unscientific
prejudgement typically employed by scientists which simply doesn't permit them
to explore interesting territory.  Anecdotal evidence is apparently too human
for most of them.
From: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Philosophy vs. Technique
Date: 12 Dec 1992 21:08:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa727@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Johnny Wu)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, lieven@cco.caltech.edu (Lieven Pascal Leroy) says:

>
>I just read a short essay by Terry Dobson that got me thinking about
>the philosophy behind martial arts.
>
>The story, 'A Kind Word Turneth Away Wrath', outlines the experience of a
>young, eager aikido student who finds himself in a situation where a drunk
>is bullying a rail car full of people.  'Aha,', he thinks, 'a legitimate
>use for my skill, a chance to do good for these people.'
>
>Just before he kicks into gear, an old man intervenes.  In a quiet, under-
>standing tone he defuses the whole situation in moments.  The drunk ends
>up quietly crying and talking to the old man, instead of laid out on the
>floor.
>
>The moral is that the old man was the one truly in tune with Aikido philosophy,
>to find the non-violent solution.  One that helped all parties, the trouble-
>maker included.  The aikido student realizes his folly.
>
>Woah.  Deep stuff.  It suddenly struck me that I am closer to the philosophy
>of Aikido when I am _away_ from the practice mats.
>
>Rec.m-a talks techinique and this-art-compared-to-that-art, and that's how
>I usually think of the martial arts I practice.
>
>How many of you feel the philosophy too?  Is it something you strive for,
>or a separate ideology you may or may not choose to accept along with the
>physical aspects?
>
>						Reflecting,
>						Lieven
>

I am a practitioner, and many times I do feel that I should use what I
know to 'contrl' the situation, but most f the time, it turns uglier...

My grandfter said once, "The best way to control a movement is no movement'
Perhaps it applies to all life or any encounters....

-- 
Before you judge the action of a person, THINK!
Re-examine yourself first!  
What have I done to deserve this?  Answer it!
Then, let GOD be the judge of all!
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Drugs & Fighting (was Finishing techniques)
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:49:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec16.184911.4676
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <BzCCGw.JzB@eis.calstate.edu> jlockha@eis.calstate.edu (Jame A Lockhart) writes:
>From what I understand, the Samoans used to put some sort of narcotic on
>their armor so that pain would be more difficult to register.  Apparently,
>this is why the .45 was invented.  US troops were VERY disconcerted when
>they kept coming after a few rounds in the chest.

Back up a few steps. What you are thinking of is the fun times the U.S. 
military had during the Filipino-American war. The Moros (Muslims of the
Southern Phillipines) had a limited sense of humor about being colonized
and about having their home turned into a free-fire zone. Oftne a Muslim
warrior would decide it was time to rid the area of a few pale-skinned
bandits. He'd have his  hair shaved off, have his limbs bound up so that 
he wouldn't lose blood pressure too quickly if wounded, pray for a long time,
take his Barong and go into battle. These Juramentados would kill the invaders
until they themselves were dead. They were so hopped up with religious fervor
and bad attitude that they were very hard to stop. There are many documented
reports of Juramentados taking a dozen or more bullets to the head and
torso and not finish dying until they had killed the soldiers who had shot 
them. 

Eventually the ineffectiveness of the standard sidearm became apparent, and
the military issued a weapon which would knock a fellow down and back so
that he would die before killing the guy who had shot him.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re: ki and science
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:55:21 EST


14-Dec-92 14:18	Frank@mindlink.bc.ca (Frank I. Reiter)	Re: science and ki
>tremendously valuable - without science you would likely be far to busy
>trying to maintain a subsistance level existence to study MA, and certainly
>there would be no usenet, or computers, or electricity...

I think we'd be much better martial artists in a "primitive" society without
any notion of science at all.  Indeed, I believe the Chinese have always been
better martial artists without scientific interference.

>This is certainly true of many "educated" westerners, but let's not confuse
>the science with the scientists, nor even judge an entire group by the
>attitudes of a portion thereof.

You're right, I'm expressing a prejudice.  But hell, test my hypothesis that
you will be shunned if you take the notion of chi seriously in 99% if all
American scientific institutions.  If you work in one, try it out.  Propose a
study to verify the existence of chi in your home institute and see what
happens.  My presupposition is that you will be ridiculed.  It is highly
predictable.

>Have I misunderstood your "dubious value" statement?

No you haven't.  Science has its roots in being able to answer meaningful
questions about the universe--meaningful here is defined as that which will
give us useful information in determining our lives in the world.

I see myself as a traveller on a ball of dirt that is flying through the
universe.  I have <=100 years to live--a very very short period of time.
Science will never tell me anything meaningful relative to my life or death.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jmw1@ra.msstate.edu (John Westerburg)
Subject: Re: Please list hapkido belts and stages
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:47:47 GMT

what you have to remember is that saying 'Hapkido' is
like saying
'Karate'.  It's not an all encompassing term.  There are
several styles and  each has it's own way of doing things.

E.G. In Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido the belts go: white, yellow,
orange, green
,
blue, purple, brown, red, black.  No half colors, etc...




-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-   
   "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt
    of in your philosophy."
	Hamlet
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cadesjar@leibniz.uwaterloo.ca (Curtis Desjardins)
Subject: Re: Karatemania 5
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:54:35 GMT

In article <18DEC199209141984@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca> villard@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (Excuse me sir...What does this core meltdown light mean) writes:
>
>I recently seen Karatemania 5 here in Canada, Jean-Yves Theriault 
>regained his title (that he lost because he retired from a fight with 
>a back injury). Rick Roufus knocked out Jersey Long(by the way Rick is 
>a hell of a nice guy and a great partier)

I know Roufus was trying to heat up the match between him and Long, but
his comments at the press conference made him look like an asshole. IMO.
He's one hell of a fighter, though.

>I was appalled by the antics of Leo DeSnoo, Theriaults opponent. Now I 
>am biased because Jean-Yves is a very good friend of mine, and don't 
>get me wrong, out of the ring DeSnoo and his trainer are the nicest 
>people you'd want to meet, but he kept throwing leg kicks.  At one 
>point he even trapped Jean-Yves leg, and swept him.  That might be all 
>fine and well in Thai kickboxing, but if you want to fight in the PKA 
>then learn the rules.  

I can see WHY deSnoo used Thai techniques. Hell, it was only his second
fight where leg kicks were NOT allowed. He's used to the rules he's 
always used, so I can see him resorting to habit. BUT if we can blame
his breaking of the PKA rules because of habit, then why didn't he train
*exclusively* in PKA style to avoid falling back on habits.

>Although Jean-Yves was ahead on points, the 
>fight was stopped due to the leg attacks.  Theriault was called the 
>victor.  

He should be retiring soon. It's nice to see him retire as a champion
like he wanted.


========================= Fluffy the Wonder Bunny ============================
      The other night I was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, and
              I wondered, "Where the FUCK is my ROOF ?!?"
================== cadesjardins@descartes.waterloo.edu =======================
  Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature and join the fun!
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: rtang@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (The One Your Mother Warned You About!)
Subject: Re: Agreed: rec.martial-arts hierarchy
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:03:57 GMT

In article <BzJIMI.JHJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>
>I think we should really break up this group.  martial arts as a term is
>so general.  hapkido, judo, 200 types of karate, gun-fu, PCP-fu.. :)
>This is just a little suggestion, no need to flame. :)
>
>rec.martial-arts.hapkido  -  Hapkido discussions
>                 judo     -  Judo, obviously..
>                 karate   -  all styles of karate..
>                 hype     -  martial-art bullshit like super ninjas and 
>                             catching bullets. :)
>                 western  -  Western martial arts.. knives, guns,
>                             general non-Asian combat
>                 misc     -   Anything else.
>
Just a thought, not flaming.
What about other "major" style of MA.
Aikido, taichi,TKD, various KungFu styles isnt on the list, I would 
think the have as much popularity as those you've suggested.
So it could get hairy as to which MA should warrant its own subgroup.
Maybe divide it along the lines of "hard" styles vs "soft",
"internal" vs "external", "weapons"?? I don't know. Anyone has any
ideas?

Ray
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
From: ttrimble@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:28:40 EST
Organization: Wesleyan University

Mary writes:
 
> As I have said over and over again, the point of a sternum strike is 
> to help propel yourself away from your attacker, NOT to break your
> attacker's sternum or something equally silly.  
> 
> You are all -- Dakin, Steve G., and Lieven -- making the same mistake, and
> that is to assume that the only point of a strike is the damage that
> it will do to your attacker.  Generally speaking, that's the purpose of
> a strike, but it's not always the exclusive purpose, or even the primary
> purpose.  The sternum strike is an example of a case where the "strike" 
> is actually part of an escape.  

i feel that it should be noted that strikes to the sternum of an attacker, 
(middle of the chest) often have the strange effect of making the attacker's 
hands open a little or making his grip weaken a bit.  this seems to be quite
important for a smaller weaker defender who might have trouble working
techniques against a vise-like grip.
					just my $.02 worth
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Re: ki and science
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:11:00 +0000



Mmmn... what would a device that measures ki be called?


A Kiometer,
A Kido,
A Kimeter,
A Kimomitor
A Kimoscope....  ?????


Bill Burgar.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: Drugs & Fighting (was Finishing techniques)
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:46:56 GMT

In article <e3TsVB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com> lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard  
Church) writes:
> ....  This 
> discussion reminds me of "battlemix" as a gentleman I met that was in Viet 
> Nam called it...it was a mixture of narcotics that was often used by US 
> and Vietmanese <sp?> troops before going into a particularly nasty combat 
> situation.  He told me that he personally had seen men that were shot so 
> severely that they could not have been able to react continue to function 
> for up to 5 minutes before finally falling.

This reminds me that there are and have been many cultures that have
mixed drugs and fighting application. My favorite (being Scandahovian)
is the Viking's use of berseka (magic mushrooms) and mead (fermented
honey/wine) prior to battle. One can imagine how terrified the defenders 
would be when arrows and swords did little to stop the oncoming attacks.

Recently we hear of a narcotic being used in Samalian gunmen.
I wonder how common it would be to encounter drugs and fighting
around the globe currently... ?

Kevin

ps. I wouldn't want to suggest that one adopt these techniques to enhance
their fighting art :-)
-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 14:42:55 GMT

Mary mentioned a sternum strike as a good defensive move, and this
suddenly reminded me of a possible topic.  A lot of the USTU people
that I've met prefer to strike the sternum rather than the solar
plexus, claiming that it is a more effective self-defense move.  I
disagree.  The argument goes, as I recall, that striking the sternum
will tear it free of the ribs and crush the heart, possibly driving 
broken bits of rib into that vital organ.  I've also heard this story
from some Japanese stylists.  I just don't see it.

To my mind, the solar plexus is a much better target.  If you
strike straight in, you knock their wind out.  If you strike
downwards, you cause them to vomit (according to George Dillman).
If you strike upwards, you have a very dangerous heart knockout
(check out Ernst Jokl's book on Boxing's medical aspects).  

The WTF people, I think, sometimes have an inflated idea of the
damage their kick will do.  I've had people tell me that they can't
spar me because they will break my arms!  Not likely when I've got 
40 pounds on them!  The sternum strike is over-rated, to my mind,
because of an experience one of my instructors had.  She went
to India on vacation, and while there a fire-eater got irked
at something she had done (she never did figure out what) and came
over and started yelling in her face, waving two flaming sticks
at her.  She instinctively punched the guy (ok, so it wasn't a
de-escalating response) but she hit him on the sternum because
she was striking rather wildly.  He got pushed back a few feet
and became utterly incensed, whereupon she started acting a lot
smarter.  While an angry mob gathered and threw stuff at her and
yelled at her, she walked away without saying another word.  
Ever since then, she has emphasized the solar plexus as a target.

Another reason I'm unconvinced about the usefulness of the sternum
as a target is that when I was taking Tae-kyun, we routinely struck
to the sternum (full power palm heel strikes) because it was 
practice, not real-life.  Our instructor made it a point to tell
us to strike to the solar plexus on the street.

I guess the whole question comes down to efficiency of technique.
A self-defense technique should work on someone twice your size.
A sternum strike does not, so I don't think it is a self-defense
technique.

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Describing techniques in words - Yuk!
Date: 18 Dec 92 04:22:10 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk's message of 15 Dec 92 22:11:00 GMT


In article <memo.811753@cix.compulink.co.uk> bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar) writes:

  >Does anyone have a neat way of describing techniques without a great long
  >description in words. i.e. some form of ascii short hand notation that
  >is clear. If not can we develop one? Something that everyone here can
  >learn to use so that we can discuss more technical concepts without being
  >too badly misunderstood.
  >
  >
  >Any ideas + has it been tried before and given up on - it may be rather
  >difficult!!!

It is.  I posted a couple of things describing various spinning kicks, 
which, I'll grant you, aren't real easy to describe...they're complex, 
and besides my impression is that most readers of rec.martial-arts have
never seen a real spinning kick.  Anyway, the method I used was a 
clockface (e.g., standing in a fighting stance, left foot forward, 
attacker in front of you at 12:00, yak yak yak).  It seemed to work
okay for some people, but I can't call it a resounding success.  It 
could be my poor powers of description, or it could be a generation
who was raised on digital clocks...


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH

From: ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:34:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Judo.  A technique that has worked for me.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts


>>Well apart from the standing on his feet which is illegal if the ref
>>saw it then that's great :-)

I stood on somebody's foot once (accidentally) in a grading and threw them
rather neatly with O-soto-gari (a major outer sweeping sort of throw).  The ref
hadn't noticed and complimented me on the great throw :-}

>>A variation on the theme, is if you happen to have both hands gripping
>>when you do the throw is that the hand which has the lapel grip... flip
>>the opponent's jacket off their shoulder as you pull down.  This traps
>>the arm and makes it difficult for uke to turn out of the throw.

We practiced this a few months ago at my club.  It was a really nice method but
I just realised that I haven't used it since, I must try it out again next
time. 

>>You can practise without a partner by holding your hands in front of
>>you at about chest height, arms bent and then 
>>with your hands move each one of them from in front of you to about 6 inches
>>away in a semi circle movement ending in a downward pull with both...
             __          __
            /   \       /  \
 	    |   x	x  |
	    |              |
	    |              |

I like this, sort of like Polish on......Polish off  :-)))

Cheers

Brenda





Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: esh6h@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Erik Scot Hatcher)
Subject: Attn: Private Acupuncture Discussion Participants
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:49:05 GMT


All of my mail to James Heng bounces.

James, I get mail from you, are you getting my mail?

What is your address at which I can reach you?

Sorry for the interruption.

		Erik

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Subject: Re: Sternum strike vs. Solar plexus
Keywords: Has he got an acute appendix?  No, but he's got a nice set of pecs!
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:21:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.170059.19390@ns.network.com> hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
>In article <Bz94Jz.JC0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:
>>muscles.  Remember that Houdini used to take punches to the stomach
>>to demonstrate how strong he was.  He died after someone hit him
>>in the solar plexus.
>
>I thought the story was that the blow ruptured his acute appendix.  That's
>not particularly near the solar plexus, is it?

Correct.  Houdini died because a punch in the abdomen *for which he was
unprepared* ruptured his appendix.  The solar plexus certainly seems to
be protected by abdominal muscle, contrary to Dakin's posting.  At
least when I flex my abs and poke myself in the SP, I feel resistance.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@tti.com to you!)
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Separate Newsgroup for Judo? (was: Re: Judo Esoterica )
Date: 18 Dec 92 22:19:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24446
Reply-To: garry@alice.UUCP ()
Distribution: rec
Organization: AT&T, Bell Labs

taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken) writes:
>One of the two fundamental principals of judo is "Maximum Efficiency,
>Minimum Effort."  "That sounds exactly like my art!" I hear you exclaim.

Has anyone else noticed there's *way* too much discussion
of Judo in this newsgroup?  Why don't we make a separate
newgroup, like rec.martial-arts.judo, so we can get these
throwey-chokey types the hell out of here?

Any votes?























Hey, it was a joke, ok?

-- 
Garry Hodgson			A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs			A night like forever
garry@alice.att.com		Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry			Float like a feather
From: ber@otter.hpl.hp.com (Brenda Romans)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:39:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: group for judo?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts


I prefer to have one martial arts group BUT....I'd really like to see (and
contribute to) more Judo posts.

Anyone know how many judo people are listening out there? (I'm sort of new to
the group)  

Cheers

Brenda

------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenda Romans @ HP Labs         |  Phone: (0272) 228705
Information Systems Centre      |  ber@hpl.hp.co.uk
Bristol                         |  ber%hplb.uucp@ukc.ac.uk
U.K.                            |  ber@hplb.hpl.hp.com

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,rec.arts.dance,rec.folk-dancing