From: drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr)
Subject: Falsity of "live MIA/POW evidence" (was Re: FOREVER GONE)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Comp Sci, Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:01:14 GMT


In article <1gr439INNfam@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> Monte Olsen
<olsenm@ucs.orst.edu> writes:
> I've seen photographs of SOS messages spotted from the air but of course
> those are probably all hoaxes perpetrated by someone. But by whom?

In this case, the military teams investigating the fate of the MIA's found
a villager who created this hoax.  A recent newswire story (UPI I think)
discussed this case.

> But of course, you don't believe in live sightings.

I will believe in them when they are found to be GI's held against their
will.  To my knowledge, in every single case which has been seriously
investigated so far, the "live sighting" was determined to be of a
non-American foreigner.

You may recall an episode about a year ago in which a picture of an
alledged group of GI's was splashed lavishly across the front pages of U.S.
newspapers, with the allegations quietly withdrawn a few months later (in
the back pages, naturally) once it was discovered that the group depicted
was some Europeans, and the photo dated from 30-40 years before the Vietnam
war.  This is the typical fate of these "live sightings" cases.

> Not that the most recent report of a person being held in Cambodia only
> months ago couldn't be true.

Even granting that this "live sighting" case is legitimate, Cambodia still
isn't Vietnam (nor is Laos, for that matter).

> time after time you've commented on how honest those people have been.

If you wish to retain even a shred of credibility, you will either retract
this assertion or back it up with quotations from my postings.

> But, of course, your sources are unimpeachable aren't they Dave?

My conclusions are based on the following:

1.  Every one of the hundreds of cases of MIA/POW's alledgedly being held 
against their will in Vietnam which has been investigated thus far by U.S.
military teams has failed to find a single live MIA/POW.  Every one of the
(perhaps dozens (?) of) private and clandestine search operations has
failed also.  Every recent public statement by members of the military
search teams has indicated that they believe there are simply no live
MIA/POW's being held in Vietnam.

2.  A large number of the photographs of alledged MIA/POW's and "SOS
messages" have proven to be outright hoaxes.  There is in fact a cottage
industry in Vietnam of people manufacturing false artifacts, substituting
animal remains for human remains, and telling outright lies about "false
sightings", in the hope of getting money from the Vietnamese government or
U.S. investigation teams.  There is a corresponding cottage industry in the
U.S. which defrauds families of MIA's of their money by organizing "search
expeditions" (which never in fact take place); these people also
manufacture false evidence in order to raise the hopes of family members by
deceiving them.

There is an article in the most recent issue of _The Nation_ which
discusses the U.S. branch of this fabrication industry, and reveals some
highly questionable conduct on the part of certain congressmen and their
staffs during the MIA investigations.

3.  Even in those "live sighting" cases in which there is no deliberate
deception, subsequent investigation has consistently indicated that the
people sighted were decidedly not MIA's or POW's.

4.  The above have occurred over the past 20 years.

5.  The Vietnamese government has been exceedingly cooperative for over 3
years now, letting search teams roam all over the country, permitting
access to archives, museum artifacts, and military facilities.  If they are
serious about convincing the U.S. to normalize relations (which I think is
indisputable by anyone who has been following events over the past year),
then they certainly wouldn't be holding back prisoners now.

> your sources tell you that there is no American in that country alive or
> being held against his will, isn't that correct, Dave?

Once again Monte, you have betrayed an immense disdain for accurate
quotation.  I certainly hope you never work as a reporter or journalist.

What I have said is that, based on all the evidence I have heard (which
appears in extremely condensed form above), I think there are no American
POW's or MIA's being held against their will in Vietnam.  Not just any
"American"; in fact, I would be surprised if there are no civilian
Americans who have been imprisoned for criminal or political offenses. And
"my sources" don't tell me this; I have come to this conclusion on my own,
because I think the evidence is overwhelming.

> And you do believe everything you've read by your 100-percent-reliable
> sources, don't you?

Not without corroboration among sources (of which I think there has been
plenty).  Why are you stuffing words in my mouth?

I'll turn things around a bit: do you prefer to believe the research 
behind a 15-minute segment of 20/20; or a 4-year military investigation
involving many dozens of excavations, a thousand or more interviews with
Vietnamese, on-site inspections of live sightings, and man-years of
scrutiny of physical, archival, and photographic evidence?  (Not to mention
the fact that the private search efforts have also failed to produce a live
MIA/POW.)
-- 
Dave Kohr     CS Graduate Student     Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Work: 3244 DCL, (217)333-6561  Home: (217)359-9350  E-mail: drk@cs.uiuc.edu
                   "One either has none or not enough."
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam