HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: SOLAR efficiency
Date: 7 Oct 92 09:36:48 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Oct6.030347.6796@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.190509.13588@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
>>High voltage lines are made of aluminum.  It is more conductive,
>>per *pound*, than copper.  Cheaper too.
>
>I think it is usually aluminum wound on a steel core.  The steel 
>carries the weight and allows for longer spans between towers,
>while the aluminum is a very cheap conductor.

It'd take a 2 inch aluminum cable to equal the 1.6 inch copper.
Less the steel core, it's 67.27 million pounds.

>At any rate, what is the typical size of conductors on major 
>transmission lines?  Is a 1.6 inch line 'beyond the pale'?

Not at all. A 1250 amp circuit is well within industry practice
for medium voltage loops. I don't know how large EHV lines are.
The major differences are the improved insulators required, and
the strong EM force between the conductors requiring stronger
supports and wider spacing.

>At a dollar a pound (which seem high to me for aluminum, but who
>knows... I don't have a WSJ commodities section handy...) that is
>a cost of $224 million (even assuming it conducts the same
>per pound as copper).  Given the cost of a 900 MW plant, the
>cost of wire doesn't seem all that much...  (At $2k/kW it would
>be $2m/mW or $1800 million for the plant.  That puts the cost
>of the wire at about 12% of the plant.  I have no idea if 
>finished and installed cable is anywhere near $1/lb, though...

Counting towers, right of way, and labor, I'd guess the installed
cost would run more on the order of $10 a pound. So our line is
in the $0.6 billion dollar range, or about 10% of the cost of 
Plant Hatch, or 33% of the cost of a coal fired 1,000 MW plant.
Of course our cable doesn't generate any electricity, so we have
to add in the cost of the 1,000 MW solar plant. That's where it's
going to hurt.

Gary
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: 891666t@dragon.acadiau.ca (Trish Turliuk)
Subject: Re: solar products
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:14:23 GMT

nin15b63@merrimack.edu (THE WOLF) writes:

>Pardon the newbie questions.  I'm not a scientist.  I'm simply interested in
>learning what solar products are currently available and worth checking out, 
>not just being researched.  

>I know people who know people ... who heat their homes with solar power and say
>it's expensive, but it pays for itself and is just great.  Does anyone know any
>tangible info?  Who sells it?  Where can I find out more?

I subscribe to the WELL (Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link) and found this info re:
above:
Photocomm with offices in Grass Valley, CA and Tuscon, AZ 800-544-6466
and Real Goods Trading in Ukiah, CA (707)468-9214 sell lots of alternative
energy products and alternative lifestyle stuff.
Marine supply shops are also a good place to check andsolar contractors
I see you are in MA, so I'm not sure if the above will be useful or not.

-Trish-

keep the information flowin'

    
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: DC->AC
Reply-To: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 20:35:04 GMT

In article 24115@sol.UVic.CA, aschoorl@engr.UVic.CA (Andre  Schoorl) writes:
>|
>|I live on Vancouver Island, and my neighbour states that the power coming to the 
>|island is DC.  Somehow they convert it back to AC, but no-one I know knows how.
>|Could I get some help on this?
>|
>|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|Andre Schoorl                                    aschoorl@engr.uvic.ca
>|Department of Computer Engineering               e-mail preferred.
>|University of Victoria, Canada

They are probably using a controlled 6 or 12 step inverter to do this.
Depending on the Voltage of the DC link, the inverter is either really 
expensive  or moderately expensive.  If it is really old, they may still be using mercury valves.  I mean really old.

********************************************************************
*Peter Wung			Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory	Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering	    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology			    	   *
*Atlanta, Georgia						   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...					   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy. 	   *
*								   *
********************************************************************

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: DC->AC
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:24:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.080007.29942@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>In article <1910029@hpspkla.spk.hp.com> borowski@hpspkla.spk.hp.com (Don T. Borowski) writes:
>>
>>The conversion from AC to DC and DC to AC has long been done without rotating
>>machinery.  The largest scale example in the U.S. is the Pacific Intertie,
>>which sends power from the Columbia River down to Los Angeles using a DC
>>transmission line. 
>
>MG sets are still in use for certain jobs. At very low power demands,
>solid state rectifiers and inverters have taken over. At the other
>extreme end of the scale, solid state devices have also taken over.
>But in the mid-range, motor-generator sets are still the most economical
>choice in many cases. They also have the benefit of dealing gracefully
>with large transients. Many large computer installations still use MG sets
>for this reason.

And for another ... our MG set (when we had a Cray X-MP, the Y-MP
doesn't need one) converted to 400 Hz, which made the power conditioning
equipment 'down stream' from it much smaller.  (The conversion was
from a 750 kVA utility feed at 60Hz through an MG set to both 208V
three phase and 405 V {for which I've forgotten the phase..} with
one or both of them being at 400 Hz.)  Making the conversions to 
other voltages easier since the inductors would be smaller at that
frequency.  It also made the filtering capacitor smaller after
the rectification to DC in the power supplies.

While the end goal was DC, going through 400 Hz as an 
intermediate had advantages...

DISCLAIMER:  It's been a year or two since we had the X-MP and
I may have muffed some of the voltage, frequency, or phase
numbers.  While I manage the facilities aspect or our shop,
I don't do the work myself and didn't pay that much attention
to the MG sets when they were installed, other than noting
the technology in passing.

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: keelings@wl.aecl.ca
Subject: Re: Another NUKE bites the dust ...
Organization: AECL RESEARCH
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:11:49 GMT

  Date sent:  8-OCT-1992 16:00:15 
  >>>In contrast, the following story was also on the news wires...
  >>>
  >>>   "Three missing, presumed dead in Indiana power plant fire"
  >>>
  >>>This was a fossil fuel plant, and they did not die from
  >>>exposure to ionizing radiation.  I am sure their families are
  >> 
  >>the rooftop; yet saw not a word about the Japanese nuke on the
  >>nightly TV news ... only on the 11th page of the paper...  Could it
  >>be that the news media did, in fact, cover the two accidents in
  >>an appropriate ratio?

	Aha! Obvous evidence of a conspiracy on the part of the military,
industrial, nuclear complex in order to play down, or indeed bury, from
the public the obvious deficiencies inherent in nuclear power generation.

	"Nuke Scientists Bomb Hydrocarbon Plant in Attempt To
	 Smother News Of Yet Another Near Disaster In A
	 Nuclear Plant"!


:-) :-) :-)

  >>E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  keelings@wl.aecl.ca  AECL - Whiteshell Labs, Pinawa, MB., Canada R0E 1L0  |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: whitlock@dcss.mcmaster.ca (Jeremy Whitlock)
Subject: Re: Another NUKE bites the dust ...
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:13:37 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.003041.6298@gallant.apple.com> ems@gallant.apple.com (Mike Smith) writes:

>Interesting...  Perhaps you could describe the CANDU design a bit more?
>
>How is the moderator kept in close proximity to the core, yet 
>kept cool and low pressure?  Or is 'low-temperature' a relative term?

The CANDU core consists of hundreds of separate pressure tubes (about 6"
diameter) holding fuel and pressurized heavy water coolant (essentially,
a subdivided pressure vessel).  These pressure tubes sit it a large 
calandria filled with heavy water moderator, separated from this moderator 
by an annular gas-filled space and a second tube.  The annular space is
what cuts down on heat loss from the coolant to the moderator.  Moderator
design temperature is 93 deg. Celsius, and it is unpressurized.  Coolant
design temp. is about 360 deg. Celsius, and pressurized to 10 MPa. 

>How low is extremely low probability? 

I've seen studies that demonstrate the ability of the moderator to 
adequately remove heat from the fuel under extreme LOCA.  I don't recall
what quantification was placed on the reliabilty of these results.

>If the probability is so low that
>there is no need for an 'emergency' cooling system, then one might
>still be able to solve the PR issues of 'emergency' cooling ...

By the time the moderator becomes effective as a heat sink, the fuel 
must have come in thermal contact with it, meaning the core is deformed.
In other words, this is a last-ditch inherent safety feature that you 
would still try to avoid by using emergency core cooling.

>From what I've heard of the CANDU design, it has some nice features,
>but I don't know what architechture leads to those features ...

Check out the September 1992 issue of Nuclear News!

-- 
Jeremy Whitlock                 "My thoughts are mine, not Mac's"
Dept. Engineering Physics
McMaster University
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
From: L20BC@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: solar panel charging batteries
Date: 16 Oct 92 03:34:01 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Hail,
    I want to buy a solar panel and make a battery charger for standard home
batteries.  However I have no idea on how to do this.  I know that if you
over or under charge a battery it will damage the battery.
    If anyone can send me the exact specifications for making this it would
be extremely appreciated.

p.s. Im pretty new on the net and may not be able to read replies send
by netnews so if the person could send me mail that would be best.

thanks
    jason
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: whitlock@dcss.mcmaster.ca (Jeremy Whitlock)
Subject: Re: DSM for Ontario Hydro (was Re: Radioactivity and Superstition...)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:56:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.173549.9142@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

>The price of $432 million/GW is way below the experience of others.  I
>have heard that the succesful programs in France come in at about a
>dollar a watt.  And Ontario Hydro is less than half of that? 

The discrepancy is probably due to the accounting method in Ontario Hydro's
plan, which multiplies the average cost/year of each option by the number of
years that the option contributes to the planning period (ending in 2014).  In
other words a proportion of each option's cost is allocated to the study  
period for comparisons between different options, and for comparisons between
different plans.  The cost/GW, therefore, is not the total cost of supply or
demand management options, just a levalized and allocated figure for fair
comparison only.

-- 
Jeremy Whitlock                 "My thoughts are mine, not Mac's"
Dept. Engineering Physics
McMaster University
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Economist article on car battery and flywheel technology.
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:28:21 GMT
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Oct14.172152.5806@adobe.com>, pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>>And accidents are not too terrible; though the rim is
>>moving at 8,650kph, if it fails it merely produces hot fluff, which the
>>housing can contain.
>
>And a nuclear bomb is merely 50 pounds of very hot metal.
>
>Why do I get the feeling I am being mislead by the author of this
>article?

Possibly because the question of whether the flywheel disintegrates into "hot
fluff" or solid fragments is largely irrelevent when the disintegration occurs
in a vacuum?  Either could convert the housing into shrapnel if the housing's
not strong enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
From: nin15b63@merrimack.edu (THE WOLF)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: solar products
Date: 8 Oct 92 01:56:58 GMT
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA

Pardon the newbie questions.  I'm not a scientist.  I'm simply interested in
learning what solar products are currently available and worth checking out, 
not just being researched.  

I know people who know people ... who heat their homes with solar power and say
it's expensive, but it pays for itself and is just great.  Does anyone know any
tangible info?  Who sells it?  Where can I find out more?

Are solar batteries still in the good idea stage or are they a practical
product?
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Andy Harrington                      | nin15b63@merrimack.edu
 Computer Geek                        | aharrington@ldbvax.lotus.com
 Merrimack College, North Andover, MA | The basis of life is freedom; the
                                      | purpose is joy; the result is growth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: meier@Software.Mitel.COM (Rolf Meier)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: ANOTHER Form of COLD FUSION
Date: 14 Oct 92 17:44:49 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

ditto

Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.med,sci.med.physics,rec.motorcycles
From: artc@bacchus.epps.kodak.com (Art Campbell)
Subject: Re: Heat loss from the human head
Reply-To: artc@bacchus.atex.kodak.com
Organization: Atex Publishing Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:27:21 GMT

In article <1b7849INNpoi@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, davidt@ecst.csuchico.edu (David Taylor) writes:
|> 
|>  
|> HI,
|> 
|> I am a mechanical engineering student in the process of completing my senior 
|> project.  This project is to design, build and test a thermoelectric
|> cooling system for a motorcycle helmet.
We know -- you said that in your last post.

|> 
|> For sometime, I have been tring to learn the rate of heat dissipated or
|> lost by the human head in a normal room enviroment.  I have been through
|> the journals and cd roms at school looking for this information.  I have
|> been given many suggestions, but none which were documentable.
This should be in most basic medical texts. I believe the U.S. government
did considerable research on this during WW II and subsequently. Literature
relating to survival techniques is probably your best bet for a survey;
I'd check gun stores, hunting stores, L.L. Bean and so forth.

A library that's a Federal Documents Repository may be able to get the
government docs for you.
 
-- 
Art Campbell          artc@atex.kodak.com            72227.1375@compuserve.com
   DoD 358                                  _Real_ BMWs have just two wheels.
    "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent 
     and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
                      All the usual disclaimers apply.
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Another NUKE bites the dust ...
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:06:50 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <nbfp49f@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

>I've typed my last
>multipage treatise to try to counter this ignorance.

Mr. De Armond.

I tried to mail this to you but it bounced.

I am sorry to hear that you want be posting any more of your treatise.
I have saved most of the ones I have seen so far.  I have been able to
use them when arguing with others.

Your analysis have been very concise and readable.  And I for one will
miss them.

-- 
Mark
My opinions are mine, all mine.  Unless someone else claims them first.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson)
Subject: UV coating absorbs more energy than black plastic?
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:29:12 GMT


I noticed something unusual a few weeks ago related to solar energy
conversion efficiency.  I have a small ultraviolet light (the long
wave purplish looking florescent tube type) that is mounted in a black
plastic housing.  It was laying in the sunlight near a picture window
and I happened to touch it and noticed that the UV tube was much
hotter than the black plastic.  This is in October so the sun isn't
really warm here in Massachusetts and the glass of the window was
blocking some energy also I'm sure.  Yet while the black plastic
housing was just warm to the touch, the UV tube was hot.  It occured
to me that this might have application in solar water heaters.
Does anyone know if the solar water heater manufacturers have tried
anything like this?  What is inside a UV florescent tube anyway?
Is the coating a phosphor or a filter?
ron@vicorp.com or uunet!vicorp!ron
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: New Energy Policy?
From: jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 08:26:08 PDT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

Has anyone seen the legislative language in the energy bill just
passed by the Senate?  Does anyone have a bill number for it?

--                    
INTERNET:  jim@netlink.cts.com (Jim Bowery)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jim
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: millerj@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Snide Pucker)
Subject: Re: Nuke Stupidity Rebuttal
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 04:44:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.220710.15082@pmafire.inel.gov> russ@pmafire.inel.gov (Russ Brown) writes:
#>
#>Although it may be so regarded in the social sciences, looking up stuff
#>in the library is a literature search, not research.  Studying,
#>analyzing, calculating, thinking, thinking, thinking . . . is closer to
#>a partial description of research.


   ...and if you give up sleep and the monetary pleasures of life, or, for
   that matter, even having a life at all, you'll have a partial description 
   of grad school.

   Of course, I hear it gets much easier out there in the real world...*choke*
-- 
---
   Jerry W. Miller                   #   "Opinions?  Of course they
   millerj@gn.ecn.purdue.edu         #    are mine, do YOU want them?"
   Purdue Univ. School of Nuclear Engg//Argonne Nat'l Lab--Reactor Engg
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: whitlock@dcss.mcmaster.ca (Jeremy Whitlock)
Subject: Re: DSM for Ontario Hydro (was Re: Radioactivity and Superstition...)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:21:21 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.181515.4465@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:

>although it would be a part of DSM.  Since I don't know the conversion between
>Canadian and US $$, I can't compare the figures you present with those that
>I am familiar with. 

Use 1 Cdn. = 0.8 U.S. dollars.

> Is it possible that new capacity could be cheaper per GW
>while efficiency would be cheaper per kwh? 

I don't see how this could be the case if you compare levalized costs 
allocated to a prescribed planning period.

-- 
Jeremy Whitlock                 "My thoughts are mine, not Mac's"
Dept. Engineering Physics
McMaster University
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada  
Xref: sparky sci.energy:4935 sci.med:19248 sci.med.physics:421 rec.motorcycles:36261
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.med,sci.med.physics,rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Heat loss from the human head
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:38:23 GMT
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Oct14.164047.7176@aoa.aoa.utc.com>, carl@aoa.aoa.utc.com (Carl Witthoft) writes:
=>For sometime, I have been tring to learn the rate of heat dissipated or
=>lost by the human head in a normal room enviroment.  I have been through
=>the journals and cd roms at school looking for this information.  I have
=>been given many suggestions, but none which were documentable.
=x
=You are asking the wrong people.  I am one of the right people, :=),
=i.e. a physicist w/ experience in blackbody physics and thermodynamics.
=The basic answer is found by treating the head as a blackbody source
=at 38 degrees Celsius.  So long as that temp is maintained, the
=amount of power radiated per unit area is known.

That's nice.  How long can *YOU* breathe vacuum?  Radiation is *NOT* the
primary mechanism for dissipation of heat from the head (or any other part of
the body).

=Your problem goes
=farther tho', because what you also need to handle is the heat load
=due to absorption of the helmet, e.g. from sun loading.  Roughly
=speaking, the sun produces 1kW per square meter at the earth's surface.
=Of course, a polished reflective helmet absorbs a small part of this.
=I think you can get a lot more useful info by hitting up some physicist
=at your school.

Or, better still, asking someone who knows what he's talking about in this area.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Another NUKE bites the dust ...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:12:54 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.220420.3629@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca () writes:
>In <BvpI3p.5C3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
>
>>I also heard on the Radio this morn that 34 were injured.  Meanwhile,
>>I have yet to fall off my roof, or get hit by a falling solar panel.
>
>Isn't falling off ladders a major cause of accidental death?

Which illustrates why one should use a proper belay when climbing a
ladder.  Oh, we weren't talking about British caving techniques?
Nevermind. 


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Mayor of Dogspit, IN  #My Opinions! NotIU's! #Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Located somewhere in  # Legalize Explosives! #nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # the Outback of the    #I've got my own fusion#family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over#plant. Just ask me.   #Space For Rent