From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:36:48 GMT
Distribution: alt
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr8.085639.15765@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
|> #1867
|> 
|> Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
|> From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
|> Date: 6 Apr 92 21:35:28 GMT

|> >[In] Judaism, the concept of sin is a private one, and does not lend itself (if
|> >you'll pardon the pun) to analogies with bank accounts where Jesus can
|> >transfer others' sins to his account.
|> 
|> Is that why -- after David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her
|> husband Uriah (2 Samuel 11:1-17), he said, "I have sinned against the Lord"
|> (2 Samuel 12:13), and again in Psalm 51:4-5:
|> 
|> 	"Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done what is evil in
|> 	Your sight, so that You are justified when You speak, and blameless
|> 	when You judge.  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in
|> 	sin my mother conceived me."
|> 
|> ?  It also says in Psalm 49:7-9:  "No man can by any means redeem his
|> brother, or give to God a ransom for him -- for the redemption of his soul
|> is costly, and he should cease trying forever -- that he should live on
|> eternally; that he should not see the pit."

None of the above argues that someone else can take your punishment
in your place or "credit it" to his account.  Please try again.

|> 
|> Proverbs 20:9 asks:  "Who can say, 'I have cleansed my heart, I am pure
|> from my sin'?"  And again, Psalm 143:2 says:  "IN YOUR SIGHT NO MAN LIVING
|> IS RIGHTEOUS."  "The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is
|> desperately sick", proclaims Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 17:9), and Yeshayahu says,
|> "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous
|> deeds are like a filthy garment ..." (Isaiah 64:6).  Again, Isaiah 59:2
|> says: "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
|> and your sins have hid His face from you, so that He does not hear."  What
|> is the result?  According to Ezekiel 18:4, THE SOUL WHO SINS WILL DIE.

This contradicts your previous posting where you argue
that the Tanakh says that sinners don't die but
roast in hell forever.

|> 
|> Now, just when did Adonai change His mind, and say sin isn't so bad any more,
|> it's just a private matter betwen men, and doesn't affect one's relationship
|> with God?  He said in Leviticus 17:11 that it is the blood that makes
|> atonement.  When did God change that?  Since when does saying "I'm sorry"
|> satisfy the Lord's justice?

Here we go again.  The *ceremony* of atonement described in
Leviticus requires the blood of a bull.  You now say that
it is fulfilled once for everyone by the blood of a man,
and that it is real atonement and not a ceremony.
Did Adonai change His mind?


|> Thus, the word of the rabbis supersedes the Word of God.  Rightly did Yeshua
|> say to the P'rushim (Mark 7:13), "With your tradition which you had handed
|> down to you, you nullify the Word of God!"  And again, in Matthew 15:6-9
|> He quotes Isaiah 29:13, saying
|> 
|> 	By your tradition you make null and void the word of God!  You
|> 	hyprocrites!  Yesha'yahu was right when he prophesied about you,
|> 	"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
|> 	away from me.  Their worship of me is useless, because they teach
|> 	man-made rules as if they were doctrines."
|> 

You still don't make clear why the same criticisms don't apply
to the words of the "apostles". 

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598