From: mykes@shell.portal.com (mike myke schwartz)
Subject: Re: Chelsea's school ...
Organization: Portal Communications Company
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:06:33 GMT

Nathan Engle (nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu) wrote:
: mike@execu.execu.com (Mike McCants) writes:
: >Nathan Engle writes:
: >>IMHO before we start handing out what are essentially tax refunds for 
: >>disgruntled parents
: 
: >No one ever claimed there should be any relationship between taxes
: >paid and school choice money handed out.
: 
:     Perhaps, but that isn't exactly what I was claiming either. It does 
: (still) seem to me that Bush's school choice plan was intended to give 
: control over the spending of education dollars (some of which come out 
: of my pocket) to people whose stated first intention is to take those 
: dollars out of the public system so that they can redirect them into 
: their own favorite private or parochial school - basically a grown-up 
: equivalent of taking their baseball and going home because not everybody 
: is willing to play by their rules.
: 

Why should religious parents who can't afford private school, be forced
to send their kids to a school that teaches opposite values?  Why should
a school in downtown Quakerland (no offense to quakers intended :) have
a public school that teaches Quaker ideals, or at least pleases its customers?

: >>At that point maybe it will 
: >>become obvious that tax money paid for public education is not tagged for 
: >>the personal use of any individual kids,
: 
: >State aid to schools is based on the number of kids attending.
: >Fewer kids => less state aid.

In California, it is $1200 per student per semester.  The money is absolutely
dispersed on a per student/desk basis.  This is from the state coffers, btw.

: 
: >"Everyone" computes $4000/child ($80,000 per classroom) and says
: >"we need more money".  If they had fewer kids to teach...
: 

Granted, some minority of people would take a $2K voucher and kick in
the difference to send their kids to private school.  That would be
better for the children involved (as Clinoccio if you need proof).

: >If a private school closes down and their students go to public
: >schools, your taxes will go up.  If a $4000 kid was given $2000
: >to go to a private school, why shouldn't your taxes go down?
: 
:     Excuse me for mentioning this, but aren't you now suggesting that 
: there would be some relationship between school choice dollars and 
: taxes? I thought that about 4 paragraphs ago you were saying that 
: nobody was claiming that such a relationship should exist.
: 

The tax relation ship he was talking about 4 paragraphs ago was in refering
to getting a "weighted" voucher depending on your tax contribution.  I.E.
no huge vouchers for the rich and cheap ones for the poor.  As for his
assertion that your taxes would go down, they CAN if the government chooses
to refund the money.  For each student who goes to private school, you are
paying your share of the $2K voucher, not your share of the $4K guestimated
per student cost.

: >>enjoy benefits as a result of living in a 
: >>society which provides its citizens with a basic education.
: 
: >Too bad the US does not qualify as such a society.  The US provides
: >the opportunity, too bad most citizens are not interested in taking
: >advantage of that opportunity.
: 
:     If they're not interested in taking advantage of the opportunity in 
: public schools, why is it going to be any different when they transfer 
: over to private schools? The public schools have their problems, but I 
: don't think that lack of motivation or placing a low value on education 
: is one of them. The values school children carry into the classroom have 
: a definite tendency to reflect the values that the parents display at 
: home, and I'm not convinced that unmotivated kids are going to be any 
: better students in private classrooms than they are now in public ones.
: 

Depends on what the private school teaches.  A private school that charges
$2K vs. public schools that spend $4K would be at a serious disadvantage.
And you can't expect parents to pay extra cost to send unmotivated kids
to a better school (i.e. perform or go to public school).  I would believe
that private schools tend to push students to seek higher education, while
it is clear that public schools will graduate students who can't read or 
write.

: >  A few dollars to allow those who
: >would like to get a good education to separate themselves from
: >those who are not interested might go a long way.
: 
:     I'm sure it would go a long way. I would imagine that the gap between 
: public and private schools would become even more pronounced, and with the 
: departure from public schools of the last students who really care I would 
: imagine that the peer group values in public schools would become even 
: worse than they are now. I certainly can't argue with the fact that it 
: would result in change, but I'm not sure that I would call it progress.
: 

You are correct in a sense.  The last students who really care will likely
choose schools that care - public or private.

: --
: Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
: Psychology Department               Indiana University
: nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
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