HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Whining about buying American cars
Date: 18 Nov 1992 20:01:51 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.202

v064mcqs@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (NEIL GANDLER) writes:
>                4. Chrysler's Cab forward cars. Which show remarkable 
>engineering. And are the first cars to use non-cfc air conditioning which
>will help save aour environment as far as reducing the ozone layer.

You blew this one.  Cab-forward has been around for awhile, it's not
new to Chrysler (my Geo Storm, which was being designed in the mid to
late 80's, shows many of the design trends used in the Chrysler).

I don't think the new Chryslers were first in non-CFC refrigerants
either, but I can't recall which car really was.

WRT the Japanese vs American argument, I don't consider it relevant
anymore.  I pointedly avoided looking at American-built cars and
kicked myself later for not looking at the Saturns.  It's become
obvious that American cars *can* compete effectively with the
Japanese, it just took the big three a long time to decide to do it.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: wesf@boi.hp.com (Wes Fujii)
Subject: Re: Are new cars typically blemished?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:49:55 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Being more wise in my old age, I will not let this happen again, but:

I once bought a new rig ('83 Pontiac) from the dealer.  I thought that
new meant that it should be perfect when in actuality it only means 
that it had not been licensed previously.  

In my case, I found out from a painter (a second opinion also confirmed
what the 1st person told me) that my vehicle had been in a front end 
accident and the front clip, including hood, had been replaced or repaired
and repainted.  Being the novice that I was, I was devastated and angry
at the dealer and system in general.  Since I discovered this some time
after I had the car, it was mine to keep, plus as far as the laws are
concerned as long as the car was repaired, the dealer can sell it as
new and is not obligated to tell you about it.  To make it worse, the
sales person can lie to you and tell you anything because the paperwork
that you sign when you buy the car releases the dealership from any 
verbal warranties, etc.  This same vehicle had a relatively short life
before developing major mechanical difficulties (I suspect abuse at the
dealer during the break-in period).  My overall experience was heartbreaking.

In your case (Toyota), I have seen very few defects in those.  Minor
paint imperfections can often be buffed out safely.  The laws allow
much more damage so it's up to the buyer to beware.

I guess it gets down to "How reputable is your dealer?"

Wes Fujii

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Wes Fujii               *           JAPANESE BUSINESS MOTTO           *
* Boise, Idaho            *        You can buy anything you want        *
* wesf@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com *             with a lot of money             *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: corsa@shell.portal.com (Eric Richard Elliott)
Subject: Re: James Dean drove one
Organization: Portal Communications Company
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:59:04 GMT

tonyz@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Tony Zugates) writes:

>Restored 1965 Porsche 356 SC for sale

>e-mail for details

ummmm.....   James Dean was dead by 1965. 


                                                                   __
/-----------------------------+---------------+-------------------///-------\  
|    ___  __   ___  __   __   |               | Multitasking __  ///        |
|   |    |  | |    |__   __|  |  Unsafe at    | my life      \\\///  Amiga  |
|   |___ |__| |     __| |__|  |  any speed... | away !!!      \XX/   3000   |
|-----------------------------+---------------+-----------------------------| 
|    Eric Elliott          Corsa@shell.portal.com       GEnie: E.ELLIOTT7   |
\---------------------------------------------------------------------------/

--
 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: cka52397@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Slartibartfast)
Subject: Re: What do you think about Grand AM?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 08:27:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.051516.1982@csi.uottawa.ca> kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist)) writesa Accord

	Piece of Garbage, buy the Grand Am.

-- 
"The Clergy Dazzle us with Heaven or they Damn us into Hell"  Billy Bragg!!!!!
IIIII  L    L    IIIII NNNNN IIIII   Chintan Amin c-amin1@uiuc.edu DEPT of E.E.
  I    L    L      I   N   N   I   RUSH	YES FLOYD METALLICA PEARLJAM REM PG
IIIII  LLLL LLLL IIIII N   N IIIII   GO TARHEELS  GO CAPITALS GO COWBOYS 
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist))
Subject: Re: Fast Japanese Sports Cars
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 22:00:07 GMT

Oh, shut up and get a Honda NSX.  End of discussion.
-- 
Ken Iisaka               \ NEXT RECITAL  |12:00 pm, Thursday, January 7th, 1993
kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca     \ Produced by |National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa
AI Lab, University of Ottawa \ CBC Stereo|Berg        Sonata, b minor, op. 1
H: +1 613 237 6642 W: 564 8155 \ 103.3 FM|Mussorgsky  Pictures at an Exhibition
From: philg@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Philip Greenspun)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Extended Warranty (3rd party recommendations)
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:15:32
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
Reply-To: philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: zug.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: sandyb@world.std.com's message of Fri, 13 Nov 1992 22:25:41 GMT

In article <BxoEAu.4v8@world.std.com> sandyb@world.std.com (Sandy Bendremer) writes:

   I am just about to take delivery on a new Ford (Taurus SHO).  Can anyone
   recommend or provide a list of 3rd party extended warranty providers.

   My goal would be to have as good (or better) coverage than Ford's program,
   at lower cost.  

Don't get a 3rd party warranty.  In most states the implied warranty
of merchantability (i.e. "the car has to go from one place to another,
regardless of what the fine print says"), which is often much stronger
than the manufacturer's explicit warranty, runs for one year or the
length of the explicit warranty, whichever is longer.

Thus, if you get a six year warranty from Ford and something breaks
that shouldn't have, e.g. the transmission, and they don't want to fix
it (we're talking Ford after all), you can sue them under the warranty
of merchantability and forget that the fine print excludes
transmissions or says "unless the owner didn't change the fluid" or
whatever.

By the way, car companies put language in to make you think you don't
have this implied warranty, but in most states, including MA, a
consumer cannot sign away his implied warranty no matter what.

In summary, if you get a 3rd party warranty you are bound by the fine
print, which will likely be very favorable to the insurer.  If you get
a Ford warranty, they (legally, at least) have to treat you fairly.


--

      -- Philip Greenspun

-------------------------------------------------------------
MIT Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
545 Technology Square, Rm 433, Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-8574
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: SHO WAGON -- Again
Date: 21 Nov 1992 06:35:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett) says:

>In article <1eh43uINNlgh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. 
>Spencer) writes:
>> why in the hell are they doing this??..why not do it RIGHT the first
>> time w/ 92 parts or something easier to find..and the plus of a stick
>> and by the time they get all the bugs worked out, they would have a much
>> less hard time finding one of the autos(as i can understand wanting an
>> auto in a wagon loaded w/ screaming brats!..)...but..what the hell!!??!
>> get if off the ground w/ a stick..they should be easier to come by, to
>> begin with..and should be a decent conversion platform to build off of to
>> put in an auto later, when they are less "novel".
>
>Perhaps the Registry is trying to influence Ford with this vehicle,
>and they know Ford would never be able to understand a station
>wagon with a manual transmission.  Although I think in the early
>days of the Taurus there was a manual available with the wagon...
>
>I think the reason for the '93 parts is that the wagon is probably a
>'93 wagon...  
>
>
>Tom Pickett 

ok.i'll buy that..sounds like BS to me, a stalling point, cuz they are 
afraid to go ahead on the project..but ok..i will buy it anyhow...
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Eric Alter)
Subject: Re: Japanese Full Size Trucks
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 02:43:53 GMT
Reply-To: alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester Mn

I just looked at one of these Toyota T100 pickups (the 1/2ton) and must say
that I'm not impressed.  I've been waiting a long time to see if the
Japanese learned from Ford and GM's truck mistakes, but I don't think so.

1.  The 3.0L engine is too small (lower hp and torque).  The Ford ranger
3.0L has more power (can't say too much about GMs stuff as I was that the
local Ford/Toyota dealer leafing through truck literature and ran across
the data).  Hey, the japs may make 'em more reliable, but if your gonna use
the truck for what it's designed for, hauling/towing, I think your wasting
your $20,000 (4WD version I saw).

If you want it for 4WD/looks get a the smaller Toyota pickups (which I happen
to like the looks of).  Still expensive and underpowered/poor mpg, but they
look good.

If you want more power in a small pickup, get a Ford or GM.  Quit your whining
about poor reliability and maitain the thing yourself.  You may not be able
to fix every problem, but you can probably fix many of them.  Of course,
if you don't maintain your car at all (what's a tuneup?  I was supposed to
change the oil?  I didn't know there was a fuel filter.) then buy the Toyota
for reliability.

2.  The cab looks like it was designed as if there have never been any truck
before on the whole planet.  Sorry folks, those seats look worse than my
GMC 1/2ton w/220,000 miles on it.  Comfort?  I don't even want to think
about getting in it.  I know from my truck that you gotta get bucket seats
if you ever want to drive more than 1hour straight.

The ads say you can fit 3 comfortably, from what I saw, no way.  The truck
I saw was a 4WD w/manual tranny.  Sure, the stick is gonna be in the way
even if it was a US vehicle, but the 4wd lever would stick right up into you
crotch.  The seat has been cutout so that it isn't as "full" as the rest of
the bench seat.  So there would actually be less leg support for the middle
person if one was daring enough to sit there.

Looks like the instrument panel gives what you need to see without any clutter.
Thats a plus.

3. On the good side, it gets good gas mileage for a truck (15/20mpg).  It
looks good (ok, need to upgrade those rims, YUK!).

It's probably more reliable than Ford/GMs products.

All in all, I was expecting great things and was quite dissapointed by what
I saw in the sales brochures and on the car lot.  Bummer :-(
Guess I'll buy a Ford/GM for $18000 and spend $2000 in servicing for the
same $20000 Toyota.  Better yet, spend $18000+ for a 4WD extended-cab
Ranger and an additional $2000 in servicing.  Same money right? 

Folks, go see one for yourself.  Guess I'll wait for the net to reply :-)
-- 

Eric Alter		alter@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
IBM Corporation		Rochester, Mn
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: chuck@eos.ncsu.edu (Chuck Kesler)
Subject: Re: Ford Probe - invoice prices wanted
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project EOS
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:10:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.061747.29528@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <2B09CC15.21923@news.service.uci.edu> jroersma@orion.oac.uci.edu
>(John Roersma) writes:
>>My girlfriend is planning to buy a car soon and is looking
>>at the Probe along with a couple of other cars (namely the Saturn
>>SC2, Dodge Shadow convertible, and Chrysler LeBaron convertible--any
>>comments?), but she would like to get a better idea of what to expect
>>to pay.
>
>Forget Dodge or Chrysler.  They are about as reliable as Hyundais.
>Forget the Probe.  It's a repackaged Mazda; the Mazda has a better
>warranty.
>
>Buy the original Mazda, or get a Saturn SC2.

Except the Mazda MX-6 is sticker priced something like $2000-$3000 more than
the Probe.  No joke.  The argument that the Mazda is a better deal because of
the warranty will only hold water if you are expecting to have to do $2000-
$3000 worth of warranty work, and if you think you're going to be spending
that much on repairs, then you probably should buy a different car. :-) 

I think the Probe vs. MX-6 decision must come down to what an individual is
looking for.  If someone wants a luxury-oriented sports coupe, then the MX-6
would be the logical choice, but if you want a sporty sports coupe, I think 
the Probe blows away the MX-6 in that arena, especially when you look at the
top-of-the-line versions (Probe GT and MX-6 LS).

Check the latest issue (December '92?) issue of Car & Driver.  They do a 
comparison test of 5 sports coupes:  Probe GT, MX-6 LS, Volks Corrado, Mitsu
Eclipse AWD, and Honda Prelude.  The test was oriented torward the sporty end
of the spectrum, and the Probe was ranked first among these cars.  The MX-6?
Well, it was in last place.  It looks nice, though.

-chuck-

-- 
   Chuck Kesler                     |  Internet:   chuck@eos.ncsu.edu
   Unix Systems Programmer          |  US Mail:    Box 7901, NCSU Campus 
   Engineering Computer Operations  |              Raleigh, NC 27695 USA
   North Carolina State University  |  Phone:      +1 919 515 2458
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Leather Seats
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:26:36 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <BxwzvG.F7B@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
> Yeah, and the windows are completely screened in. Next year, the company
> will be coming out with the Gazebo Carerra. ;-)


Has a taller greenhouse, right?


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com
SHO  GOZE
Xref: sparky rec.autos:27703 misc.consumers:19425 misc.kids:29029 talk.politics.medicine:104 sci.med:21418
From: paradis@sousa.tay.dec.com (Jim Paradis)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.consumers,misc.kids,talk.politics.medicine,sci.med
Subject: Re: Seat Belts Releasing in Crashes: Institute for Injury Reduction
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:28:13 GMT
Reply-To: paradis@sousa.tay.dec.com (Jim Paradis)
Followup-To: rec.autos
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation



% setenv SARCASM

Ya know, I don't know what all the fuss is about... after all, one
excuse I've heard for not wearing seatbelts is that without them one
will be "thrown clear" of an accident and thus be "safe".  Well, the
door-mounted seat belt design allows these people to wear their
seatbelts and *still* be assured of being thrown clear.....

% unsetenv SARCASM

--
Jim Paradis (paradis@sousa.tay.dec.com) 
I try to take one day at a time, but lately several days have attacked at once!

Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: sandhoff@csus.edu (John F. Sandhoff)
Subject: Re: Waxing New Car? (Saturn SL-1)
Followup-To: <mitchell.721970240@cwis>
Summary: Saturn, waxing a new car
Originator: sandhoff@syscube.ccs.csus.edu
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:35:42 GMT

mitchell@cwis.unomaha.edu (Dennis Mitchell) writes:
> I just got a 1993 Saturn SL-1, so far, so good.  Since the birds have
> already started in on it, it seems that a coat of wax is in order.  
> One friend has suggested that I wait a while for the paint to 'cure'
> before I wax it.  

I don't have an answer, but I *do* have an additional question for you
to ponder: the saturn is a 'plastic' car, with body panels that are
solid color (if someone 'keys' your car, they will gouge the fender but
will not leave an ugly off-color line). Does Saturn actually paint the
car?

Sounds like maybe a good question to ask the retailer (Saturn doesn't
use 'dealers').

I would have bought a Saturn if it was big enough to fit the family. Alas,
it wasn't :-(. Neat Car!!! (the engine even uses an honest timing CHAIN!)

    John F. Sandhoff, University Network Support
      California State University, Sacramento
        sandhoff@csus.edu
From: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: BMW/Servotronic
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:03:59 GMT
Reply-To: aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, qazi8906@ee.uwm.edu (Cindy Crawford) says:

>Thanks, Eliot, for bringing forward the subject of Servotronic
>steering in BMW's.  I had a lengthy test drive in a 735i, and I
>was disappointed in the variable-assist steering it used.  It 
>doesn't become meaty until about 60mph, which is way too late.
>The steering is sloppy and loose, not unlike that of the Lexus
>LS 400.  I always believed that the steering wheel is the most
>important piece of communication between the driver and the road.
>Can you believe they are going to install Servotronic on the M5 
>as well?  Everything else about the car is good, but that horrid
>steering just ruins everything that BMW is supposed to stand for.
>The steering in the Q45 is Infinitely (pun intended) better than
>that of the 7-series.  Now even Audi is using it; it has come
>one step closer to the Acura Legend.           
>
>
>--Aamir Qazi
>  mail to: qazi@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
>
>  p.s. the 325i is a great car; I do like BMW's, except for 
>       the 7-series.

i heard, i think, that Dinan has a chip out to override this...
but am not for sure..i do KNOW that he has a chip out to override
SOME BMW's variable steering, to make it linear rate, and, i think,
stiffer than stock...
DREW
-- 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
From: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Underdrive pullys - Any experiences?
Date: 17 Nov 92 17:55:21 GMT
Reply-To: tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett)
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.  Engineering

In article <1e4rq5INN3lo@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, aas7@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. 
Spencer) writes:
> i believe he was referring to the airplane thing again here?..most 
> airplanes idle at 200, and 7k doesn't hurt them a bit..now..
> a small question..


I'm sorry, airplane engines do not idle at 200 RPM, and if one ever
attained 7000 RPM the propeller would be found in the next state,
and the pistons would achieve orbit. :-)

Airplanes in general do not exceed more than about 2700 RPM at the
most.  A few do -- with geared propellers the engine can turn maybe
3500 to 4500 RPM, but the propeller doesn't.  At 2700 RPM the tips
of a 76-inch prop are at about .8 mach, and when they go 
supersonic, bad things happen.

The idle on a Continental 0-470 (6-cyl, 470 ci, 230 HP), idles at
800 to 1000 RPM (which the pilot sets and the mfg recommends) and
it can idle at about 600 RPM if the throttle is fully retarded.
This is typical of most light plane engines, in fact it is the
second or third most popular plane in the world, and is therefore
representative of most aircraft.  The following stats are from the
pilot's Operating handbook for the 1979 Cessna 182 (O-470-U:

	Maximum engine speed: 2400 RPM
	Propeller diameter:		84 inches
	Normal operating range: 2100 to 2400 RPM not to exceed 75% power.

I hope this clears up any confusion people have about airplane
engines. :-)


Tom Pickett 
tpickett@auspex.com or 74616.2237@compuserve.com
SHO  GOZE
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Fast Japanese Sports Cars
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 08:41:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.210901.2050@ctp.com> bpita@ctp.com (Bob Pitas) writes:
>I second that - you definitely should be checking out an LT1 Vette.  It'll
>accelerate with any of them, and handle better than anything but the RX-7.
>Plus, it has adjustable suspension, and a pretty nice interior...
>Given the choice, I'd actually buy the RX-7.  It *is* the ultimate sports
>car!

the 300ZX turbo is more refined than the vette, and the interior is
better.  the gauges are very legible (none of that stupid digital speedo
like the vette has) and it's easier to see out the front.  it's also
quieter.  but the vette has much better low-end.  stomp the gas at
2500 rpm in second and it leaps.  do the same thing in the 300ZX and
nothing happens.  you have to wait until 4000 rpm and then it takes off.
mind you, i'm not saying the 300ZX has no response - but compared to
the vette, its low-end response is lacking.  if you shift a lot to
keep the engine in the upper rev range, you'll get plenty of power in
the 300ZX turbo.  and out in the hills, when you're busy at the wheel
blasting through tight s-curves, the V-8's broad torque band means you
don't have to shift as often (i get very busy with the shifter in my
integra).

also, the 300ZX has some turbo lag.  it can be lots of fun to be revving
it hard and feeling the turbo kick at 3500 rpm, but it's probably not
what you want if you're trying to steer with the throttle.  i also
found it easier to break traction under hard acceleration in the 300ZX
than in the vette (with the traction control off).

one big selling point is that the vette has traction control.  great
for squidly drivers.  don't worry about applying too much throttle
in a corner and spinning out.  just stomp the gas and let the ASR
(automatic slip regulation) keep the car on course.  in wet weather,
it really helps.  the 300ZX turbo doesn't have it - though i've never
driven it in the wet, other people have said that it can be a handful.

the vette has a slightly harsher ride, probably due to the
40 series tires.  but it pays off in better handling.  i don't
know which car i would rather have.  the 300ZX is more refined,
and more driver-friendly.  the vette is brutish and goes like hell.
if you care, the 350 smallblock has been around for a long time
and there are lots of parts floating around.  hotrodding a vette
is simpler than modifiying a 300ZX turbo.  think about it this way:
drive the vette for 100K miles and beat the hell out of the engine.
when it needs a rebuild, have it bored to 383, change the cam, etc.
the lingenfelter vette is bored to 383 and kicks out 440 bhp.  not too bad.

-teddy
Newsgroups: rec.autos