From: tkelly@unix2.tcd.ie (Rincewind)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Re: Srun magicalness
Date: 7 Apr 92 10:58:42 GMT
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin

This article is replied.It was sent  by Nigel someone.I would have
replied direct but our mail system appears to have problems with replies
Hello to Darkwind,if he's reading this.


>[SRUN magic sucks deleted]

>Hmmm...I tend to agree in that mages tend to unbalanced compared to
>mundanes but they do state everywhere in the SR rulebooks that magic
>is where it's at.  Mostly it is the increased attribute spells that
>make things munchkin...so long as the multi-million dollar samauri
>gets to react first he has a chance and a reason to exist.  In stock
>SR there is zero reason to have samuari...mages can be faster and
>tougher and the nonsense of mages being some sort of rarity go out the
>window when you find gangs of the little suckers roving through
>Seattle.

 I don't remember meeting any gangs of mages.
 However,chummer,ya do have a point of sorts.You see,magic is powerful,
and why not,but consider all that a mage has to sacrifice to be able to
become a wizard.His magic is affected by cybers.His priorities don't get
him as much cash,skills or abilities than any half dozen sams you'd
meet.He also has to spend tons of Karma Initiating,learning spells,and
so forth.It's very rarely that a mage has any Karma left over.
 Compare this to a Samurai,who's skills start going up at quicker rates
than our friendly mage.He also gets to spend more money than the
mage,and his tech is a lot less vulnerable than any spell locks.

>So explain why there are samurai when magic does a much better job?
>If you're worried about spell locks evaporating from magical attacks
>you still have to consider the fact that an unsupported mundane team
>is easy meat...so what if they die because someone blew up their locks
>and killed them or simply slammed a deadly spell directly at them?
>Because they got to shoot back?  Not likely...and even if they did
>personal bullet barriers are available to the mage...not to mention
>spirits and elementals.  How do you fight a fire elemental that
>chooses to strafe a team that has no magical cover?  You can't melee
>if you can't reach it and shooting it only wastes bullets. 
 
 Yes,yes but consider this bit of info.The mages that you have described
apparently are immune to the affects of drain,from what I can see.The
barrier spell can put you unconscious becuase of drain,and then your
mage is chicken feed.If I were you,I'd ask your GM to roll Drain
properly next time and watch as your mage first tosses up an increase
Reaction +4, then a Barrier spell,then passes out from exhaustion.
Slamming a deadly spell dircetly at them as you so quaintly put rarely
kills all of a group,and often puts said mage into the land of
Nod,especially if he's trying to hold up a bullet barrier at the same
time (+2 to all target numbers,including Drain rolls).
 Also,most samurai don't have spell locks on them,anyway.So strike that
option.

 It's all a question of focus.If your campaign is the sort where mages
are allowed to run riot,then there's definitely something wrong.Tech and
magic actually do balance each other out,because the samurai's skills
advance quicker with karma,while a mage's skills CRAWL along,owing to
the number of spells he wants to learn,etc.Even corp mages have ahard
time of it.Also it shows that every group needs balance.A party
consisting entirely of starting samurais would have the snot whipped out
of it by the first magical thing that they encountered,but so would a
party consisting entirely of mages.They'd all be shot to swiss cheese in
the first major firefight that they encontered.In fact,if you want to
have a good party structure,where every contributes to the whole good of
the party,then I suggest the following :

     1 mage/shaman but not one of each.
     1 Decker 
     1 Rigger,with a good selection of vehicles.
     1 stealthy type,probably a physical Adept with auto sucesses
     1 Street samurai for excellent firepower and all-round capabilities
    Others of diffrent types,probably 1 merc,and one guy who's a bit of
    mixture of all of the above(a Jack-of-All-Trades)with a copule of
    skills that the party might lack(like Negotitation 6)

 Our group have found that this set-up hardly goes wrong.We all have
diffrent characters who's prime talents are useful to the whole party at
some stage.Each character has his own place in the whole,with no
competition coming from within.And we cover a really wide range of
skills.The Jack-of-all-trades has been so useful,just like everyone else
because his skills are obscure,and his contacts are many.



>If you have a corp with some wage mages (and spare karma) why spend
>400,000 nuyen for wired reflexes when 45,000 (and karma) will do?  The
>increased reactioned trooper is just as deadly to mundanes and just as
>dead to anyone with magic...plus you get all sorts of interesting ways
>to control the little bugger if he or she got out of line.  The only
>downside is that there's all these little locks with some mage's link
>to them running about...the question is whether that extra 400,000
>nuyen might not buy sufficient magical materials to counter any ritual
>nasties that show up.  The trade offs between having locks out there
>and having a REAL nice library and alchemy lab might be worthwhile for
>some mages.

>I guess my main point is that mages can (and often are) faster and
>impervious to the best that samurai can dish out but sammis have no
>defense against magic.  Why have them around?  Expensive magic fodder?
 
 In fact they are not often impervious at all,because they advance MUCH
more slowly than your Street samurai.I'd say you've got the rules wrong
somewhere down the line,or that the GM is putting you up against mages
that are just too good.Remember also that Sam's tend to get rich quicker
and for longer than do mages,enough to have followers and such at his
call,long before the mage has even got his first penthouse.
 That's how it worked out in our group,anyway.We've all gotten pretty
even karma awards,but the samurai and the other non-magics are very well
off at this stage,whilst the mage has spent all of his money on this
library or that item.He'much poorer than the others,but he doesn't
complain.

>Nigel

>--
>Nigel Tzeng
>.sig under construction
-- 
------------****Rincewind the Wizard****-----------------
"Life is like an apple.It can be green,or red,but it's
 always a small white fleshy ball that you can cook with."
----***tkelly@unix2.tcd.ie,at your service***------------

--
------------****Rincewind the Wizard****-----------------
"Life is like an apple.It can be green,or red,but it's
 always a small white fleshy ball that you can cook with."
----***tkelly@unix2.tcd.ie,at your service***------------
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