From: garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:35:49 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

Why are you posting this in rec.humor?

In article <10115@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Bob Beauc writes...
>In article <sbuckley.713175264@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>>
>>  well taking the bible out of the context of even its plot development would
>>lead to contradictions.  but most rational christians can show the context of
>>contradictions that appear to be so.  also, nit-picking here, contradictiosn
>>would have to do more than *appear* to exist for you to deny the consistent
>>nature of god.
>>  
> 
>  Stephen--
>  Have a crack at these.
> 
>=============================================================================
>A good source of _literal_ Biblical self-contradictions is (surprise)
>"Self-Contradictions of the Bible", written by William Henry Burr in
>1859 as a response to fundamentalism.  It is currently published by
>Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St., Buffalo, NY 14215.  P.B. also
>publishes a large number of books on religious inquiry and biblical
>critiques, the majority of which have a humanistic/atheistic slant.
>As far as "Self-Contradictions ..." goes, it contains about 140 textual
>inconsistencies, classified under "Theological Doctrines", "Moral Precepts",
>"Historical Facts", and "Speculative Doctrines."  
>=============================================================================
>"The Bible Handbook" is a compilation of several previous works by several 
>authors, including W P Ball, G W Foote, and John Bowden.  Also, the writing 
>by Mr Foote is dated 1900, so we see that this is not a new endeavor.  
>_The Bible Handbook_ by W.P. Ball, et al., available for nine dollars from the
>the American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 2117, Austin TX 78768-2117.  It's a
>collection of biblical contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities,
>indecencies, obscenities, unfulfilled prophecies and broken promises.  This
>372-page volume will give the atheist tons of scriptural ammunition for
>shooting down the flimsy arguments of the reality impaired.  
>=============================================================================
>Additional contributions were given by:
>markn@mot.com (DX560 Mark Nowak)
>JHAYNES@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
>loren%sunlight.llnl.gov@lll-lcc.llnl.gov
>lmoikkan@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU
>gerry@cs.cmu.edu
>gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu
>smith_w@apollo.hp.com
>icsu7039@caesar.cs.montana.edu
>XWUU@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU
>bjorn%consens.UUCP@nac.no
>EETLO29%TECHNION@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL
>refling@envy.eng.uci.edu
>mgo@inel.gov
>rkp@drutx.att.com
>daveh@sequent.com
>markn%mot.com@tin.berkeley.edu
>aa485@cleveland.freenet.edu (John Strekal)
>=============================================================================
>> Who is the father of Joseph?  
> 
>MAT 1:16  And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was
>born Jesus, who is called Christ.
> 
>LUK 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be  about  thirty  years  of
>age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son
>of Heli,
> 
>=============================================================================
>> Who was at the Empty Tomb?  Is it :
> 
>MAT 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to  dawn  toward
>the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
>to see the sepulchre.
> 
>MAR 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary
>the  mother  of  James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that
>they might come and anoint him.
> 
>JOH 20:1  The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene  early,
>when  it  was  yet  dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone
>taken away from the sepulchre.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>which first--beasts or man?
> 
>GEN 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
>cattle  after  their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the
>earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
>GEN 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image,  after  our
>likeness:  and  let  them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
>and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and  over  all
>the  earth,  and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
>earth.
> 
>GEN 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is  not  good  that  the  man
>should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
>GEN 2:19  And out of the ground the LORD God formed  every  beast
>of  the  field,  and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto
>Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever  Adam  called
>every living creature, that was the name thereof.
>=============================================================================
>>number of beasts in the ark
> 
>GEN 7:2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by  sevens,
>the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two,
>the male and his female.
> 
>GEN 7:8  Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not  clean,  and
>of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
>GEN 7:9  There went in two and two unto Noah into  the  ark,  the
>male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
>=============================================================================
>>how many stalls and horsemen?
> 
>KI1 4:26  And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his
>chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
> 
>CH2 9:25  And Solomon had four thousand  stalls  for  horses  and
>chariots,  and  twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the
>chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
>=============================================================================
>>folly to be wise or not?
> 
>PRO 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and
>with all thy getting get understanding.
> 
>ECC 1:18  For in much wisdom is  much  grief:  and  he  that  in-
>creaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
> 
>1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil
>bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
>=============================================================================
>>sins of the father
> 
>ISA 14:21  Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of
>their  fathers;  that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor
>fill the face of the world with cities.
> 
>DEU 24:16  The fathers shall not be put to death  for  the  chil-
>dren, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers:
>every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
>=============================================================================
>>The bat is not a bird.
> 
>LEV 11:13  And these are they which ye shall have in  abomination
>among  the  fowls;  they shall not be eaten, they are an abomina-
>tion: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
>LEV 11:14  And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
>LEV 11:15  Every raven after his kind;
>LEV 11:16  And the owl, and the night hawk, and the  cuckow,  and
>the hawk after his kind,
>LEV 11:17  And the little owl, and the cormorant, and  the  great
>owl,
>LEV 11:18  And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
>LEV 11:19  And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapw-
>ing, and the bat.
> 
>DEU 14:11  Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
>DEU 14:12  But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the  ea-
>gle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
>DEU 14:13  And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his
>kind,
>DEU 14:14  And every raven after his kind,
>DEU 14:15  And the owl, and the night hawk, and the  cuckow,  and
>the hawk after his kind,
>DEU 14:16  The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
>DEU 14:17  And the pelican, and the  gier  eagle,  and  the  cor-
>morant,
>DEU 14:18  And the stork, and the heron after her kind,  and  the
>lapwing, and the bat.
>=============================================================================
>>Rabbits do not chew their cud.
> 
>LEV 11:6  And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but  divideth
>not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
> 
>'Gerah', the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and
>also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think
>that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean
>dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which 
>could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated 'chew the cud'
>in the KJV is more exactly 'bring up the cud'. Rabbits do not bring
>up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again.
>The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that.
>Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and
>chew on it.
>=============================================================================
>> Insects do NOT have four feet.
> 
>LEV 11:21  Yet these may ye eat of every  flying  creeping  thing
>that  goeth  upon  all four, which have legs above their feet, to
>leap withal upon the earth;
>LEV 11:22  Even these of them ye may eat; the  locust  after  his
>kind,  and  the  bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after
>his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
>LEV 11:23  But all other flying creeping things, which have  four
>feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
>=============================================================================
>>fowl from waters or ground?
> 
>GEN 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
>moving  creature  that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the
>earth in the open firmament of heaven.
>GEN 1:21  And God created great whales, and every living creature
>that  moveth,  which  the  waters brought forth abundantly, after
>their kind, and every winged fowl after his  kind:  and  God  saw
>that it was good.
> 
>GEN 2:19  And out of the ground the LORD God formed  every  beast
>of  the  field,  and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto
>Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever  Adam  called
>every living creature, that was the name thereof.
>=============================================================================
>> odd genetic engineering
> 
>GEN 30:39  And the flocks conceived before the rods, and  brought
>forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
>=============================================================================
>>Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt.
> 
>GEN 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the  serpent,  Because  thou
>hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every
>beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust  shalt
>thou eat all the days of thy life:
>=============================================================================
>} order of creastion
>Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:
> 
>Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
>Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
>Day 3: Plants
>Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
>Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals,
>creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
>Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
>Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)
> 
>	Note that there are "days", "evenings", and "mornings" before
>the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim", which
>is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods". In this tale,
>the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each
>step that "it was good".
> 
>The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:
> 
>Earth and heavens (misty)
>Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
>Plants
>Animals
>Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)
> 
>=============================================================================
>Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of 
>iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his 
>bowels gushed out."
> 
>Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, 
>and departed, and went and hanged himself.  And the chief priests...bought 
>with them the potter's field."
>=============================================================================
>>Jesus' last words 
> 
>Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, 
>saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast
>thou forsaken me?"  ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded u
>the ghost."
> 
>Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto 
>thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
> 
>John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is 
>finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
>!@#
>=============================================================================
>>The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
>In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary (PBUH)
>is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of
>Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus(PBUH). The first
>one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second
>one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two
>lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true?  and also
>How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe
>that Jesus had/has no father.
>=============================================================================
>>God be seen?
> Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen.  26:2; and John 14:9 
> God CAN be seen:
>	"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
>	(Ex. 33:23)
>	"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
>	friend." (Ex. 33:11)
>	"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." 
>	(Gen. 32:30)
>God CANNOT be seen:
>	"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
>	"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man
>	see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
>	"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)
>=============================================================================
>>tempts?
>	"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
>	(Gen 22:1)
> 
>	"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God 
>	cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)
>=============================================================================
>>Judas died how?
>	"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed,
>	and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
> 
>	"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his
>	bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
>=============================================================================
>> ascend to heaven
>	"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)
> 
>	"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven,
>	... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)
>=============================================================================
>What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
> 
>Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34
> 
>Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30
>=============================================================================
> 
>>How many times did the cock crow?
> 
>MAR 14:72  And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to
>mind  the  word  that  Jesus  said unto him, Before the cock crow
>twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he
>wept.
> 
>MAT 26:74  Then began he to curse and to swear,  saying,  I  know
>not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
>MAT 26:75  And Peter remembered the word  of  Jesus,  which  said
>unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he
>went out, and wept bitterly.
> 
>LUK 22:60  And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.  And
>immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
>LUK 22:61  And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And  Peter
>remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before
>the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
> 
>JOH 13:38  Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my
>sake?  Verily,  verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow,
>still thou hast denied me thrice.
> 
>JOH 18:27  Peter then denied  again:  and  immediately  the  cock
>crew.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>who killed Saul
> 
>SA1 31:4  Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw  thy  sword,
>and  thrust  me  through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come
>and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his  armourbearer  would
>not;  for  he  was  sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and
>fell upon it.
>SA1 31:5  And when his armourbearer saw that Saul  was  dead,  he
>fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
>SA1 31:6  So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer,
>and all his men, that same day together.
> 
> 
>SA2 1:15  And David called one of the young  men,  and  said,  Go
>near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>who bought potter's field
> 
>ACT 1:18  Now this man purchased a field with the reward of  ini-
>quity;  and  falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and
>all his bowels gushed out.
>ACT 1:19  And it was known unto all the  dwellers  at  Jerusalem;
>insomuch  as that field is called in their proper tongue, Acelda-
>ma, that is to say, The field of blood.
> 
>MAT 27:6  And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said,
>It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is
>the price of blood.
>MAT 27:7  And  they  took  counsel,  and  bought  with  them  the
>potter's field, to bury strangers in.
>MAT 27:8  Wherefore that field was called, The  field  of  blood,
>unto this day.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>Who prophesied the potter's field
>Matthew 27:9-10  (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah)
>is in Zechariah 11:12-13
>=============================================================================
>>who bears guilt?
> 
>GAL 6:2  Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law  of
>Christ.
> 
>GAL 6:5  For every man shall bear his own burden.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>Do you answer a fool?
> 
>PRO 26:4  Answer not a fool according to  his  folly,  lest  thou
>also be like unto him.
> 
>PRO 26:5  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he  be  wise
>in his own conceit.
> 
>=============================================================================
>> How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
> 
>SA2 6:23  Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto
>the day of her death.
> 
>SA2 21:8  But the king took the two sons of Rizpah  the  daughter
>of  Aiah,  whom  she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and
>the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up
>for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:
> 
>=============================================================================
>>How old whas Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
> 
>KI2 24:8  Jehoiachin was eighteen years  old  when  he  began  to
>reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's
>name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
> 
> 
>CH2 36:9  Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to  reign,
>and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did
>that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
> 
>ACT 9:7  And the men which journeyed with him  stood  speechless,
>hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
> 
>ACT 22:9  And they that were with me saw indeed  the  light,  and
>were  afraid;  but  they heard not the voice of him that spake to
>me.
> 
>>How many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention 
>=============================================================================
>1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
>Matthew 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
>Acts 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)
> 
>MAT 28:16  Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into
>a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
>=============================================================================
>Judging
>1 Cor 3:15 " The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself
>is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)
> 
>1 Cor 4:5 " Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the
>Lord comes.  He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose
>the motives of men's hearts.  At that time each will receive his praise from
>God."
> 
>=============================================================================
>Good deeds
>Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
>your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)
> 
>Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what
>your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert.  Then your
>Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."  (NIV) 
> 
>=============================================================================
>>for or against?
> 
>MAT 12:30  He that is not with me is  against  me;  and  he  that
>gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
>(default is against)
> 
>MAR 9:40  For he that is not against us is on our part.
>(default is for)
> 
>LUK 9:50  And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is
>not against us is for us.
>(default is for)
> 
>=============================================================================
>Whom did they see at the tomb?
> 
> 
>MAT 28:2  And, behold, there was  a  great  earthquake:  for  the
>angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back
>the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
>MAT 28:3  His countenance was like  lightning,  and  his  raiment
>white as snow:
>MAT 28:4  And for fear of him the keepers did shake,  and  became
>as dead men.
>MAT 28:5  And the angel answered and said unto  the  women,  Fear
>not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
> 
>MAR 16:5  And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a  young  man
>sitting  on  the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and
>they were affrighted.
> 
> 
>LUK 24:4  And it came  to  pass,  as  they  were  much  perplexed
>thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
> 
>JOH 20:12  And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at  the
>head,  and  the  other  at  the feet, where the body of Jesus had
>lain.
> 
>=============================================================================
>>destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
> 
>MAT 27:9  Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy  the
>prophet,  saying,  And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the
>price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel
>did value;
> 
> 
>zechariah 11:11-13
>(nothing in Jeremiah remotely like)
>The mother of Abijah:
>=============================================================================
> 
>Maachah the daughter of Absalom  2 Chron 9:20
> 
>Michaiah the daughter of Uriel 2 Chron 13:2
> 
>=============================================================================
>When did Baasha die?
> 
>26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8
> 
>36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chron 16:1
> 
>=============================================================================
>How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
> 
>22 in 2 Kings 8:26
> 
>42 in 2 Chron 22:2
> 
>=============================================================================
>WHo was Josiah's successor?
> 
>Jehoahaz - 2 Chron 36:1
> 
>Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11
> 
>=============================================================================
> 
>The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.
> 
>=============================================================================
>What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
> 
>scarlet - Matthew 27:28
> 
>purple John 19:2
> 
>=============================================================================
>What did they give him to drink?
> 
>vinegar - Matthew 27:34
> 
>wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23
> 
> 
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
> 
>Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
> 
>"If I have to resurrect you, I'll resurrect you, whether you like it
>or not!"
>	 Paul to Jesus, _The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_
> 
>"For dying is not to be feared--it is the final comfort.  As we all
>learn, eventually."
> 
>  --Robert Heinlein