From: atovorni@engr.UVic.CA (Andreas  Tovornik)
Subject: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!
Reply-To: atovorni@engr.UVic.CA
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 01:49:56 GMT

In article 1b1lktINN10u@network.ucsd.edu, dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.133158.3166@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> nance@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (nancy.l.colucci) writes:
>>
>[...]
>>I haven't encouraged him to slit throats but I *have* seen to it that
>>he can at least defend himself and be somewhat threatening so they go
>>pick on a stuffed animal or something.  

It's good if he will be able to stand up for himself. That's an essential
life skill. 

>Acting aggressively and acting in self-defense are two different
>things.  Nowhere did I imply that Dylan would not be able to defend
>himself if necessary.  BUT,

Absolutely...This is a bit idealistic, but if all parents were successful
in achieving what you are trying to do, there would be no violence in 
society. This is, of course, impossible.

>[...]
>>I'll promise you one thing, though, and that's that if
>>your kid hits my kid, he's going to get hit back.[...]
 
An Eye for an eye, Now that's what's going on in the Middle East. The kid
gets hit back, the other kid gets hit again ad nauseum until one cries
and runs home. Does the victor really feel good deep down?

>hopefully, Dylan will not be one of those kids who hits your kid
>first.  This is the whole point I'm trying to make:  we're raising
>Dylan to be non-violent and non-aggressive.  We will not tolerate
>unprovoked aggression from him, and I do not see the value in
>parents tolerating or encouraging that sort of behavior from
>children. 
 
Good plan.
Good luck.

>>Self-defense is a must in this world, and I'm not talking about just
>>physical confrontations.  I feel that children should learn from little
>>on that they are their own best friend and they should stick up for
>>their friends.  Later in life, I hope that this philosophy will manifest
>>itself in the theory that the best revenge is your own success.

And the best defense is a good offense...

>Again, I don't know anyone who would argue that being able to defend
>oneself is a bad idea.  But there's a world of difference between
>acting in self-defense and acting aggressively or violently.  Now,
>putting aside instances in which self-defense would be necessary,
>would you (or Mr. Dutton) advocate the use of aggression or
>violence?  If not, then there's no fundamental disagreement here.  
>
>In the playground incident that I related, the bigger boy who
>pushed my son was not provoked *in the least*.  He simply walked up 
>to Dylan and shoved him.  My argument is that such behavior should 
>not be tolerated or encouraged.  Do people really have a problem
>with such a view?  If that older boy was *your* son, would you have
>just brushed off the incident as his father did?  If the answer is
>yes, then you clearly believe that aggression is acceptable, and
>that's where I strongly disagree.

The bully is probably just insecure and he derives a temporary sense
of security by expressing dominance over another child. If I were his
parent, I would try to find the cause of the insecurity and lessen or
eliminate it. There is no call for violence...If parents would spend
more time with the kids(playing games, getting interested in pastimes)
then the kids would be more secure, and have less of a need to try and
find security in other ways. 

Also, the crappy cartoons and kid's shows that children watch on TV
these days don't help...especially prime time sitcoms where the kids
on TV are the biggest smartasses around. Children learn by roll models.
They identify with other children better than with adults. Why do you
think that snarky brat, BART SIMPSON is so popular? I'm no parent, but
if I was one, TV would not be in my house. THe last thing I'd want is
a son who subconsciously uses Bart Simpson as a model. I'd rather not
have a daughter like Rosanne's, or the kids on The Cosby Show. I tune
in to PBS on the rare occasion that I watch the tube.

Andreas.