HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: The Christian Bible(s)
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:37:13 GMT

SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) writes:

>In article <root.726246641@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>>Posted on 5 Jan 1993 at 10:10:41 by Steve Adams
>>
>>>>First, their canons of scripture (= the tables of contents of their Bibles)
>>>>differ from one another, even in the New Testament, and do so in very strik-
>>>>ing ways.
>>>
>>>The Orthodox canon is identical to the Roman and Protestant, I understand.
>>>Is this mistaken?
>>
>>As far as I know, this is true of the NT...the Oxford NRSV Study Bible
>>confirms this.
>>
>>The Eastern (Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian, Armenian) canon contains:
>>
>>3 Macabees
>>4 Macabees(*)
>>Psalm 151(*)
>>
>>* Greek Bible only
>
>It's a bit more complicated that all that, I'm afraid: the traditional
>Slavonic Bibles used by the Slavic Orthodox Churches don't have quite
>the same books as the traditional Koine Greek Bibles used by the Greek
>Orthodox Church, and the Armenians present yet a different picture, with
>a difference even in the New Testament (III Corinthians and another text).
>Your source is badly informed.  I'll give details in my later posts.  --

Hmm.  According to the Geisler book, III Corinthians, or 'The Epistle to
the Corinthians' is an apocryphal book, accepted at one time, but later
rejected.  Is this still in current use?  The paragraph describing this is
somewhat unclear, implying that some local churches might still use it.

What is the other text?

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dstalder@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Darren Stalder)
Subject: Re: being a pagan can be fun...
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:43:47 GMT

Thorfinn Einarsson <thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org> spoke out onto the world:
>>Iluinn Dreamdance #30 @9950 WWIVnet writes:
>>I tried to explain to him that I was a Pagan, not a Satanist...but he'd have
>
>But, I disagree with the statement, that Satanists and Pagans are mutually
>exclusive. Good Luck!

From my interpretation, he wasn't saying that Satanist and Pagan are
exclusive.  Of course, this brings up the question as to whether or not
religions founded in the Christian mythos could be Pagan.  You may define
yourself as you so desire, but I think that many people, myself included,
wouldn't deem Satanism as pagan.  Can you elucidate on how a transcendent
religion such as found in the Christian mythos can be pagan?
--
Security	Torin/Darren Stalder/Wolf
   or	   __   Internet: dstalder@gmuvax2.gmu.edu    PGP2 key available.
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DISCLAIMER: A society where such disclaimers are needed is saddening.
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: 11 Jan 93 12:27:46 GMT
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

pierson@kukri.mps.mlo.dec.com (dan pierson) writes:
> 
> I've been trying to stay out of this but: people HAVE shipped working
> electronics, gyroscopes and other things to a height of over 100 miles
> with accelerations that result in over 1000g's.  I've talked to some
> of these folks.  The cost per pound is comparatively very low and
> startup costs are reasonable; they'd be doing it on a larger
> commercial scale today if not for the continual opposition of the DOD
> and related agencies.
> 
>                                             dan

Could you give us more info on the opposition of DOD, etc.? On what
basis are they opposing it? (what do they claim, and are the people
making the claims hoping for nice jobs at aerospace corporations?)

And while I can imagine mil-space rated packages going at 1000g s
(as in fired from guns, I remember that electronic proximity fuses
have been fired from guns for quite some time) is there any significant
change that COMMERCIAL electronics (factory, consumer) can be packed
to withstand this kind of ride? 

This is the kind of info I've been hoping to see posted with respect
to this thread.

Blessings...
A.Lizard

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From: cn573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ray Henry)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Help with Songs...
Date: 12 Jan 1993 23:52:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Earlier, Brenda asked for info on Pagan songs.

I, too, am _VERY_ interested in any pagan music. Drop me a line.

Blessed be,
Antryg
-- 
"The time has come," the Walrus said,"to talk of many things;
of ships, and shoes, and sealing wax,
of cabbages and kings..."
                              --Lewis Carroll
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: meeting Corun
Date: 4 Jan 1993 16:03:48 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <2B41E035.21649@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>So, I finally have a face to attach to the glowing words that spring up
>at me at a keystroke, and it's Corun Macanndra's face.  What a sweetie.

But why did you make me wear that bag on my head after I arrived? ;-)

>For reasons unknown to me, he drove his poor butt all the way up from
>Washington, DC to Philadelphia (well, close to Philadelphia) just to
>have lunch with me; this impressed me as it indicated either a true
>desire to meet me, or a severe mental imbalance, considering the drive
>and the weather he had to get through to make it.  I think it was the
>former.

Time for a little story. When I first moved to DC in '85, I knew nobody
here except the people I worked with. Through one client of our company,
I met a few other folks, one of whom was involved in the BBS world. She
gave me the numbers to a few local boards, and I eventually got on. I met
people electronicly, and eventually went to a few gatherings. That was
how I made my first friends here, and I'm still close to many of them after
seven years. One couple invited me over for dinner just to announce to me
before anyone else that they were getting married. They selected me because
I was the first friend they had made "together" since becoming a couple.
Needless to say I was honoured. This is why I enjoy meeting people I talk
to on BBS's and the Net. They become fast friends. I drove to Philly to
meet Mark for the same reasons.

>ENNYway, he's quite a sweetie, and meeting him has convinced me that I
>desperately want to meet others on the net!  I only wish I could meet
>someone while I was out here, since I get a little claustrophobic when
>I'm home and can feel myself change to suit it.  Just trust me on this,
>Corun is a doll.
>
>Corun, you're a doll!

<blush> You're pretty dollicious yourself. Thanks for your hospitality,
and especially for not being too freaked out that someone you've never
met wanted to meet you. Next time we'll have to try a Chinese restaurant
down here.

Have a blessed New Year. I know mine will be richer for having met you.

Bb,
Corun




-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |
  Dark Horde by birth  |	Avid readers make novel lovers.
    Moritu by choice   |
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: much more pleasant tarot reading
Date: 4 Jan 1993 21:28:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my last post about
tarot readings.  I got a lot of good out of your thoughts.  

This is a more pleasant tarot story.  My fifteen month old baby got her
hands on my tarot deck the other day.  I figured I was going to be
playing 78 card pickup, but instead, she sat down and looked through
them with a look of great concentration.  The three that she picked up
to stare at were the Lovers, Judgement, and the World.  She picked up
the Devil briefly, but tossed it under a chair after looking at it.
She picked up each of these cards, turned it over and over and stared
at it for minutes at a time.  It looked like she was meditating on 
them.  She likes to sit with her board books for long periods of time, 
but I was amazed that she handled my cards so well.

She played with the deck for twenty minutes and THEN she threw them
across the room and I had to play 78 card pickup.  But it struck me
as an interesting way to do a reading, hand the deck to a baby and see
what happens.  

It's also interesting that she loved the Rider-Waite deck, hated the
Voyager deck, and showed middling interest in the Alice in Wonderland
deck.

Dawn
"What if I had PMS all my life, and told you you looked just like Barney Fife,
What if I twisted it in like a knife, Until it made you cry? Until it made
you lie? Would you still love me?"
"What If..." by Bongwater
From: lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe)
Subject: Beltain
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 00:42:24 GMT

Yes, I know it's very early to be thinking about Beltain, but I was thinking
of having a celebration for myself and my pagan and/or tolerant friends.

Any suggestions on what said celebration should include?

Thanks,

LAR


Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina)
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 08:35:49 GMT

In article <9301032112.AA25501@chaos.intercon.com> amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker) writes:
>In article <C09r8y.IG5.1@cs.cmu.edu>, drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>> I am the way.  Not "I am a way."  I am THE way.  Moreso, "I am the way, 
>> the truth and the life.  No man cometh to the Father but by me."  They 
>> did NOT write: "I am a way, one of many truths and a type of life.  
>> Some men come to the Father by me, but not all." 
>
>But not even traditional, orthodox Christianity interprets this in a narrow, 
>literalistic way, despite the intolerant propaganda of some modern Protestant 
>splinter groups. 
Whether it is an "authentic" quote or not it has been used as a
declamation of "my way or no way." In my mainstream Lutheran
religious training, for instance.

> Take even Roman Catholicism, arguably the most exclusionary 
>of Christian sects.  The crowning pillar of Roman Catholic theology, Saint 
>Augustine, wrote:
>
>"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients and 
>never did not exist, from the beginnings of the human race, until Christ came 
>into the flesh at which time the true religion, which already existed, began 
>to be called Christianity."
>
>You can find similar writings from the second century to the twentieth.  They 
>all point to a symbolic meaning not bound by particular names or structures.  
>Some Christian writers go so far as to say that Christianity is not actually 
>a particular religion at all, but a pattern of love, forgiveness, and 
>perfection of ourselves, each other, and the world around us.
>

Funny, I also read Augstine as saying that the "true religion" is
Christianity and anything good you may find in history before the
man Jesus lived on earth is "really" just Christianity in disguise.
Sorry, I'm not buying.


*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to.     -Bill Clinton
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:14965 talk.religion.misc:25180
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The Christian Bible(s)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 11:41:37 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

In article <root.726246641@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) said:
>Posted on 5 Jan 1993 at 10:10:41 by Steve Adams
>
>Re: The Christian Bible(s)
>
>From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
>Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
>Message-ID: <root.726246641@spssig>
>Date: 5 Jan 93 15:10:41 GMT
>References: <1i8h9lINNokv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <C0BpBv.5EG.1@cs.cmu.edu>
<1i9bj1I
> NN7rh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <C0CzDr.HCs.1@cs.cmu.edu>
>Sender: news@spss.com (Net News Admin)
>Organization: SPSS Inc.
>
>drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>
>>>First, their canons of scripture (= the tables of contents of their Bibles)
>>>differ from one another, even in the New Testament, and do so in very strik-
>>>ing ways.
>>
>>The Orthodox canon is identical to the Roman and Protestant, I understand.
>>Is this mistaken?
>
>As far as I know, this is true of the NT...the Oxford NRSV Study Bible
>confirms this.
>
>
>The Eastern (Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian, Armenian) canon contains:
>
>3 Macabees
>4 Macabees(*)
>Psalm 151(*)
>
>* Greek Bible only

It's a bit more complicated that all that, I'm afraid: the traditional
Slavonic Bibles used by the Slavic Orthodox Churches don't have quite
the same books as the traditional Koine Greek Bibles used by the Greek
Orthodox Church, and the Armenians present yet a different picture, with
a difference even in the New Testament (III Corinthians and another text).
Your source is badly informed.  I'll give details in my later posts.  --
Robert
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: the PENTACLES, people!!!!
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 12:36:47 PST

From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)

I am not up for a discussion about ritual abuse, since it is too hazy
and not my specialty.

What I disliked whas the use on the front cover illustration of six
pentacles in a painting where a little child is menaced by abstract
demons.  The last thing we need is for Ms. Magazine to further convince
people that what I'm wearing about my neck right now is a demon sign and
that I worship the devil and abuse kids and animals.  THIS IS WHAT I WAS
WRITING ABOUT.  A MAGAZINE THAT HAS IN THE PAST PRESENTED ITSELF AS THE
PICTURE OF LIBERAL TOLERANCE HAS DEMEANED A VERY WONDERFUL SYMBOL
THROUGH IGNORANCE OF SOMETHING THAT MEANS A GREAT DEAL TO MANY FEMINIST
WOMEN AND MEN.  THIS was my point in posting, not to start a discussion
on the dubious nature of ritual abuse.

Blessings,
Janis

<end original>

  I share your frustration at the ability of netters to ignore the
importance of a post to pervert a thread into a discussion of
whatever they individually find interesting.  That said...

  People assign meanings to symbols.  The symbols mean what people
want or intend that they should mean.  The meaning may change (indeed,
must change) depending on who is using the symbol.  For many people
here in the US, any non-Christian symbol is, by definition, Satanic.
The pentacle has the advantage for the editors of Ms magazine, or
more likely the artist, as being easily recognized as non-Christian.
That's what they wanted, that's what they got.  Why should we
expect anything else? Especially from mass market media?

Al Moore
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15046 talk.religion.misc:25402
From: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The meaning of "pagan"
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:52:29 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:

>Yes...however, neither you nor he will find justification with the pages of
>Holy Writ to support your contention.  The Christian Bible proclaims Jesus
>of Nazareth to be the one and only path to God, and, by extension,
>Christianity to be the one and only "true" religion.

I think there's a distinction between Jesus as the only path to God
and Christianity as the only path to God.  The Bible clearly teaches
the first.  I'm not so sure that it teaches the second.  There are at
least two ways that Jesus could save a non-Christian:

  - God may act in someone's life, and be present in their heart
	without their realizing that Jesus is involved.

  - one important way in which Jesus is the only path to God is
	because he died for us.  Some Christians see this as 
	having "objective" as well as "subjective" aspects.  That
	is, Jesus' death and resurrection actually had some effect,
	and that effect does not depend upon someone knowing about it.

Almost (?) all Christians believe that Jews living before Jesus could
be saved.  The NT certainly seems to support this.  This does not in
itself prove that others can be -- it could be a special case.  But at
least it's a demonstration that someone need not explicitly know about
Jesus to be saved.
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 11:22:46 PST

Re: Re: Documented Evidence
 
> From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
> Message-ID: <1i8j2bINNde9@shelley.u.washington.edu>
> Date: 4 Jan 1993 05:47:55 GMT
> points to something that perhaps pre-dates Gardner by a decade or so (The
> Rosicrucian Theatre and the New Forest Coven), but it isn't really

Rosicrucian Theater and the New Forest Coven? This is new to me, could you
tell us about this?
Blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
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From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Question/symbol
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:05 GMT

In article <1i9quaINN3c4@mirror.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>In article <1993Jan1.235034.14987@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lrabe@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee A Rabe) writes:
>>
>>A question for the net:
>>
>>Does anyone know the meaning/symbolism of a double-bladed axehead?  I have 
>>seen this sticker on the rear bumpers of several cars lately, and was curious
>>as to it's meaning.  
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>TopCat
>>
>
>This is the labrys (not sure of spelling, labris maybe). It's a symbol
>used (to the best of my knowledge) by many lesbians (or pagan lesbians)
>as an identifying mark. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm
>out of line), it represents not only the Amazonian/Renunciate point of
>view of gay women, but also signifies the Goddess with the opposed curves
>of the axe blade representing the moon in it's phases. This is how I
>understand it, and I got my info from some lesbian friends.

It comes from Minoan Crete (pre-Mycenean Crete), and even nowdays I've
heard from people who were there that they are as common as horse apples
in museums.  They were literally ALL OVER THE PLACE.  They may have come
from two crescent moons back to back, or from a butterfly as a natural
symbol of regeneration and transformation.  Despite looking like what we
would call a masculine weapon, it was wielded by women only in the
frescoes and has never been seen associated with anything but women and
the Cretan goddesses.  The Labyrinth was named after it, meaning "House
of the Double Axe."

As to why it was seized upon by modern lesbians, I don't know.  Perhaps
it functions well as a symbol of strong and self-reliant women, or
perhaps there are historical reasons that I have yet to encounter in my
studies.

Blessings,
Janis
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:44:57 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1iaqneINNgm5@shelley.u.washington.edu>, mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes...
>In article <1348@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>>
>>	I cannot say much more than this but please trust me, it *does* exist, 
>>it *is* a religion and there *are* people passing it down to their children in 
>>modern times. 
> If I had a penny for every time someone said "Trust me. I've seen the
>evidence but I can't show you it" I would be rich. No evidence, no belief.
> 
> People can make up stories all they want but don't expect people to trust
>any one person's word. 20 years ago it was "My grandmother handed it down
>to me, really!" and now it is "Trust me, they exist and but I can't show
>the evidence."
> 
>Wassail,
>Grendel Grettisson



	I know, I hate to mention it becuase of just that, (and I realize 
too late that I should not have said anything [hey, maybe that's one of the 
reasons they don't come out themselves {aside from not wanting to be put under 
a microscope}]) but so many people are willing to write these people off as 
non-existant because they don't see any "evidence" of someones orally 
passed belief system that sometimes it just gets to me. I do understand 
what you mean about "grandmother stories" though. There are plenty of those 
around.

	I do wonder just what evidence people want to see though......because 
there really isn't any *physical* evidence at all to speak of! What do you 
leave behind? A trail in the hills and a collection of herbs? A knife and 
maybe a pouch with some personal talismans in it? No, what one leaves behind 
that is important is one's children or someone who one can pass it down to. 
Religion and magic are kept in the mind, so what do you want to see?




						- Ashely
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: God's math accuracy was The meaning of "pagan"
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<C0LzMu.Ju3@rice.edu>
Date: 10 Jan 1993 06:10:06 UTC

In article <C0LzMu.Ju3@rice.edu> 
swaim@owlnet.rice.edu (Michael Parks Swaim) writes:
>In article <fXKMWZi@quack.sac.ca.us> 
pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan8.192559.29023@radian.uucp> 
>>markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>>>Aw, c'mon. 3 is perfectly good enough for a scientific approximation. The
>>>order of magnitude is even right!
>>Exactly! As they say, one digit accuracy is close enough for God!
>  OK. I'll bite. How many digits of accuracy would make you happy?

I don't have aluminum siding on my residence unit nor do I intend to
acquire such, even if offered at no charge other than acceptance. As such
this issue of the accuracy of JHVH-1 does not concern me though I would
imagine that the IEEE could provide such information particularly in
regards to single chip double precision floating point units. I would
certainly hope that a God could exceed the precision of an Intel 387 for
instance, and I mean that in the kindest way.

>(For that matter, if the dimensions given are so bad given the accuracy
>of the tools they had, how did it get built?)

Free Masons, of course. ::B^}
Newsgroups: alt.pagan