From: mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu)
Subject: Re: EVR - Part II (Atheism); also, caste and the Tamils
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:44:21 GMT

In article <MANI.92Aug17115043@subversion.Berkeley.EDU> mani@sprite.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>In article <Bt37rv.6zp@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvishnu@morse.uwaterloo.ca (m vishnu) writes:
>
>   What makes you think that the word "varna" used in tha Bhagavad Gita is
>   based on one's work/gunas/etc and not on one's birth ?  In fact, 
>   the Bhagavad Gita is pretty clear about the fact that it is talking 
>   about a caste system based on one's birth.  For example, 
>	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   look closely at the following verses:
>
>   --------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Chapter I:41,42
    
Let me put the deleted verse back: 

    Because of the ascendancy of lawlessness, Krishna
    the family women are corrupted;
    When the women are corrupted
    the intermixture of caste (varna-samkarah) is born

    intermixture is to hell (samkaro narakaayaiva)
    .... 

    The sanskrit word samkarah means intermixture, pouring together etc.

>
>   To me at least, from these verses, it is clear that BG is talking about
>   a caste system based exclusively on one's birth as that found in the 
>   present day India.
>
>Meenan, I have repeatedly made the point that these verses are
>no proof that the Gita preaches caste in its abhorrent form.
>Why do you constantly ignore the fact that it is Arjuna who
>says these words, and the fact that Krishna *never* endorses
>these views?


Arjuna is here clearly talking about a caste system that can get
mixed up if the family women are corrupted.  This to me atleast
tells  that Arjuna is talking about a caste system based on one's
birth. (FYI women are associated with one's birth!)

If Arjuna is talking about a caste system that is based on birth and
the caste system as practised during the time of Mahabharata was not based
on one's birth, did Arjuna dream up this new concept in this verse ?

So it is pretty clear that the caste system as practised during the
time of Arjuna and Krishna is indeed based on one's birth.
(There are numerous other evidence in the Mahabarata)

Krishna never refutes Arjuna and say that caste system that Arjuna 
is referring to is false.  Instead Krishna completely ignores
Arjuna's concern (that corrupted women-->intermixture of caste-->hell)
and later he says he is indeed the one who created the four varnas.

Therefore in the absence of any redefinition of varna, one is led to
the conclusion that Krishna is advocating the caste system that 
Arjuna was talking about which is no doubt based on one's birth.

I know, a lot of Indian scholars are very much ashamed of their 
caste system and try (always in vain) to give a different interpretation
to the word 'varna'.  (eg Baktivedanda Swami Prabupada, Chinmayananda 
etc).

Now coming to other point.  Let us assume that Arjuna was an idiot and
he was dreaming about this caste system based on one's birth and that
Krishna is talking about a caste system not based on one's birth, shouldn't 
we then be working towards the eradication of the present day caste system
(based on one's birth) since (according to you) no hindu religious texts
are endorsing the present day birth based caste system ?

[the rest of your claim is pre-Bramin Tamils had caste system based on one's
 birth is deleted as there are no textual support for it]
>
>Yours,
>Mani


Meenan Vishnu