From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: "Mr. Gomes, I've Re-Read My Bible"
Date: 16 Oct 92 19:37:04 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

In article <P8uPsB4w165w@topcat> topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>>The basic right that Americans treasure is their right to be LEFT ALONE by
>>the government.  The government is not supposed to intrude upon our
>>personal lives unless we transgress the rights of others.  That was the
>>basic compact drawn up by the Founders.
>
>Rather simplistic.  I would challenge you to produce original documents
>from the founders to support your theory.

The Federalist Papers and the Dec. of Ind do a pretty good job of laying it
out.  The Founders wanted a limited government that interfered as little as
possible with the lives of the people.

>>The government is NOT there to dictate morals.  It is there to protect the
>>rights of citizens from abuse by other citizens or foreign powers.
>
>You seem to have a very limited view of morals.  Prohibiting murder,
>kidnapping, extortion, polygamy, bestialty, etc. are all examples of
>"dictating morals."  And this is a decidedly Christian view of morality,
>"... and you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Not quite.  Murder deprives someone of their life without their consent.
Extortion deprives someone of goods or services without their consent.
Kidnapping deprives someone of their freedom without their consent.

That's the key.  Polygamy is fine, if all partners consent.  Same for
prostitution, etc.  Victimless crimes, so to speak.

Remember the Constitution : Just governments derive their power from the
CONSENT of the governed.

>It is impossible to generate a just system of human government without
>regard for the written, revealed word of Almighty God.  
Wrong.  That is completely untrue.  While YOU may think this, there is
nothing inherently impossible in developing a just system of government
without God being involved.  Why exactly do you need God?  You have to
prove this assertion.

>Christians throught history, including many of our founding father(tm), 
Jefferson, among others, was a Deist.  NOT a Christian.

>have
>understood this truism.  In 1798, John Adams said, "Our Consititution was
>made only for a moral and religious [i.e., Christian] people. 
So I guess moral and religious Jews or Muslims or Budhists can't develop a
just system?  Give me a break.

>It is wholly
>inadequate for the government of any other."  It's a shame that professing
>Christians in the 20th century have adopted an essentially pagan view of
>human government. While there have always been antinomians in the Church,
>there seem to be a run on them in this day and age.
Pagan my foot.  I will apply the rules God has set down to myself.  That is
for each person to decide.  Not for me.  I am to bring the word, not use the
sword of government to force it one people.

>It is a decidely unchristian position to suggest that God has two sets of
>laws, one for Christians and one for nonchristians.  The Bible does not hold
>out this option.
As Paul said, we are to submit to the authority of government for it has
been appointed by God.
>
>> One important point:
>> 
>>   Sinful != Criminal.
>
>True.  Sinful becomes criminal by legal statute.  Christian should do all
>they can to criminalize significant sinful behavior.  And they should
>resist all efforts to decriminalize what's already on the books.

Wrong.  That deprives non-Christians of their rights.  If someone doesn't
beleive that what they are doing is sin because they reject God, then why
should it be illegal if it doesn't hurt you?

Exactly how are you hurt by homosexuality?  by polygamy?  by atheism?  by
Islam?  etc.

And, remember that the government is constrained from establishing a
religion.  Period.  Jews, Budhists, Muslims, Zorastrians and atheists are
all citizens and have THE RIGHT to be free from you forcing your religious
views down their throats.

>> While it is sinful for me to take the Lord's name in vain, it is not
>> criminal, nor should it be.
>
>I can't seem to find anything in the Bible which suggests God set aside the
>third commandment (or any of the ten commandments, for that matter).
>Perhaps you can point that out for us.

Read my lips, THE BIBLE IS NOT THE LAW OF THE LAND.

I do not take the Lord's name in vain.  I could care less if the local
atheist does.  That's his business, and God will deal with it when the time
comes.

Forcing Christian morals on people *IS* immoral!

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558