HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:23:04 GMT

In article <BzL3MK.JuF@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>Well, how about :
Okay, here are my grammaticality judgements:
>
>      "That person isn't here, is they?"
* (no subject-verb agreement in tag question.)
>  
>      "That person aren't here, are they?"
* (no subject-verb agreement in main clause.)
>
>      "That person isn't here, are they?"
? awkward, use of "that" suggests the person and hence their sex is known
  to the speaker.
>
>      "That person aren't here, is they?"
* (no subject verb agreement in main clause or tag question)
>
>      "Ask your doctor if they are interested."
  perfectly grammatical
>
>      "That employee should sign their form".
? awkward, again because of "that".  If it had "the" it would be okay.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Xref: sparky soc.college:5491 alt.usage.english:9461
From: conor@owlnet.rice.edu (Conor Frederick Prischmann)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 13 Dec 92 18:34:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: rice.Bz7nKp.7LM
Organization: Rice University

In article <1992Dec13.032106.21567@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>Simple?  Whaddaya mean, simple?  "Freshman" has only two syllables, while
>>"First-Year Student" has four.  
>
>But "freshman student at the University of Pennsylvania, class of 1995"
>has a couple of dozen or so syllables.  While "first-year" has two.
>Gee, comparing apples and oranges is fun!

What are you talking about??  "Freshman" and "First-Year Student" are
equivilent terms.  "Freshman student at the university of Penn, class of 95"
is not equivilent to either.  You are the one comparing apples and oranges.

>>from using a normal, widely accepted, only considered offensive by people
>>who have too much time on their hands term to a twice as long one.
>
>So you have no objections to replacing "chairman" with "chair"?

I certainly don't.  They are equivilent terms.  However, one should be able
to use the normal term, "chairman", without being termed sexist.

>>Also, what is so inaccurate about "freshman"?  
>
>It's infinitely less descriptive than "first-year".  And first-year
>rhymes with more words, anyway, so it's better suited for Hallmark cards.

"Infinitely less descriptive"??  I guess "first-year" must have some other
meaning for you.  For me, and the rest of the English speaking world, they
mean exactly the same thing.

>>If words in the english language
>>are which end in "-man" are generally used to describe humans of either
>>gender, what is wrong with using them.  

>But they're not, and only have been in recent years.

I think you must be confused.  I guess I'll have to refer you to a book, by
some guy called Webster.  It explains a lot about these sorts of things.
For example:

freshman - n. pl. - 1.  a first-year student in a high school, college, etc.
2.  any beginner

Sound familiar?



-- 
conor@rice.edu           Kill SDI, fund fusion!         [Will Rice '96]
prischma@nes.nersc.gov   "You are not what you own." - Fugazi 
CPRIS00@RICEVM1 (BitNet) "To defy the laws of tradition... is a crusade
11@7111 (WWIVnet)         only of the brave." - Primus
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:04:20 GMT
 <1992Dec15.160325.825@midway.uchicago.edu> 
 <1992Dec16.190214.26980@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Dec16.231237.25497@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Dec16.231237.25497@midway.uchicago.edu>
thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

> In article <1992Dec16.190214.26980@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
> > [somebody elses quote]
> >> >An exercise in futility. "Woman" encapsulates "man", as does "humankind"
> >> >"mankind". As Tim S. pointed out, if "his" were "its", "this" would be 
> >                 ^^^
> >> >"tits"!  :) 
> >Actually that's Ted S. -- I was the one who originally posted it.
> 
> I wouldn't brag about that.

Well I thought it was rather funny -- but I forgot that the politically
correct disallow any sort of humor that can in any way be perceived as
being directed at an 'oppressed minority'.  In PC-lingo, women count as
an 'oppressed minority'.

Part of the point in my posting was to show that sexism is still
possible even if you get rid of all 'sexist' terms.  Another point was
to show that it wouldn't necessarily even be desirable to get rid of
all 'sexist' terms.

(Smileys for the humor-impaired, which I'd guess includes Ted Frank :-)

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have known it would be bad vodka when all the label said was
'Russian Vodka'."
Xref: sparky soc.college:5489 alt.usage.english:9460
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:37:32 GMT
 <1992Dec12.002855.643@cdf.toronto.edu> <101793@netnews.upenn.edu>  
 <1992Dec13.032106.21567@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Dec13.032106.21567@midway.uchicago.edu>
thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:

> But "freshman student at the University of Pennsylvania, class of 1995"
> has a couple of dozen or so syllables.  While "first-year" has two.
> Gee, comparing apples and oranges is fun!

Of course, just saying 'first-year' doesn't specify which year the
student will graduate.
> 
> >I refuse to waste so much energy to change
> >from using a normal, widely accepted, only considered offensive by people
> >who have too much time on their hands term to a twice as long one.
> 
> So you have no objections to replacing "chairman" with "chair"?

Only if I can sit on the laps of people who replace the word 'chairman'
with 'chair' -- isn't one supposed to sit on a chair?  :-)
> 
> >Also, what is so inaccurate about "freshman"?  
> 
> It's infinitely less descriptive than "first-year".  And first-year
> rhymes with more words, anyway, so it's better suited for Hallmark cards.

You can use 'freshman' for so many things -- such as the new members of
Congress, etc.


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: streater@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: Re: Sexist language 
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 07:26:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.032106.21567@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>So you have no objections to replacing "chairman" with "chair"?
>
>>If words in the english language
>>are which end in "-man" are generally used to describe humans of either
>>gender, what is wrong with using them.  
>
>But they're not, and only have been in recent years.

Well as we know, "chairman" is a non-sexist word, and there is thus no need to
replace it with anything ("chair" being something you sit on). The word
"chairman", by itself, has never given any indication of the gender of the
person. It has always been necessary to qualify it with "Mr" (for a male
chairman), and "Madam" (for a female chairman). Thus:

     Mr. Chairman

and

     Madam Chairman.

Changing words just for the sake of it is merely fiddling while Rome burns.

Tim.
Xref: sparky soc.college:5572 alt.usage.english:9530
From: cholette@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Cholette Martin)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:58:23 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1992Dec15.014205.6507@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>Hundreds of people at Brandeis U voted in a peaceful referendum to change
>the name "freshman" to "first-year."  As far as I could tell, Western
>civilization didn't collapse.  (A later referendum to change "first-year"
>to "freshchunk" failed by a large margin, but got much more national
>publicity....)

Just goes to show you what kind of 'serious' stuff that gets reported on by
the media.  

Michael Bertrand,
 __________    _      _   ________         _      _    _      _
|             |     /    |                |     /      \     /  
    |         |    /     |   _____        |    /        \   /   
    |         |          |                |              >      
    |         |    \     |   _____        |    \        /   \   
    |         |     \    |                |     \      /     \ _ 
  
cholette@jsp.umontreal.ca
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:06:01 GMT

In article <29707@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>Xref: news.cso.uiuc.edu soc.college:11652 alt.usage.english:11994
>Path: news.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!olivea!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!edcastle!cam
>From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
>Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
>Subject: Re: Sexist language
>Message-ID: <29707@castle.ed.ac.uk>
>Date: 17 Dec 92 18:24:33 GMT
>References: <BzBs7x.97G@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> <1992Dec16.151519.3485@bmerh85.bnr.ca> <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu>
>Organization: Edinburgh University
>Lines: 16
>In article <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu> willson@seas.gwu.edu (Stephen R. Willson) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.151519.3485@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal
>>Nadeau) writes:
>
>>>Or, in Humpty Dumpty fashion, does a word mean just what you want it to
>
>>Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)
>
>No, there are rules, such as the fact that H. Dumpty, being a person,
>should be referred to by a personal pronoun, e.g.
>
>"Isn't he a basic tenant of English?" :-)
>-- 
>Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
>Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
>5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205

Don't you mean

should be referred to by a personal pronoun, e.g.g.?

--
Dennsi


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
Xref: sparky soc.college:5792 alt.usage.english:9782
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 11:20:19 EST
From: <HERSCH@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language

In article <BzJq56.B95@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) says:
>
>It will surprise you that *some* feminists *do* wish to replace
>history with herstory.

Published references, please, showing some feminists proposing to
replace the *word* "history" with the *word* "herstory".

H.

Herschel Browne
"The" American University
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Illinois
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:14:45 GMT

 Look up Dennis' article where he mentions that
>>>apart from "saleswoman", and subsequently "salesperson", few of
>>>the -person innovations have been treated seriously. Perhaps Dennis
>>>would be good enough to elucidate once again. 
>>>>I'm sure he would -- but note that "person" doesn't constitute more 
>>than a small portion of the area we're talking about.  Many other
>>efforts have succeeded.  Dennis has written a book about some kinds
>>of language reform; I suggest you read it.
>>
>I would gladly do that. Could you name the book please?
>Anyway, does it show how the elimination of prejudices is linked to
>language reform? Does it conclusively prove that language is an
>indisputable factor in the elimination of prejudices?
>
>>

Um, ok, yes, the book . . .Well, I do hate to mention this (maybe I
don't seem reticent on the net but I am, at times) -- because I do
have a financial stake (now very small) in the matter --

Dennis Baron, *Grammar and Gender* (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1986).
It is available in paper.  It is historical in scope, tracing attempts
to reform grammar, spelling, vocabulary, and usage, showing that the
linguistic treatment of grammatical gender and etymology often reflects
societal views of the biological/social roles of men and women.  Deals
with recent reforms as well, suggests reasons why their success may only
be limited.  Nonetheless affirms the need many people feel to highlight
certain aspects of language for comment, consciousness raising, and
social commentary, and does all of this in unobtrusive sex-neutral
language (my wife checked it very carefully), because sometimes you
want to foreground language, and sometimes you don't.

--
Dennis


debaron@uiuc.edu               (\                   217-333-2392
                               \'\             fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron                    \'\           __________
Department of English           / '|         ()_________)
Univ. of Illinois               \ '/          \ ~~~~~~~~ \
608 S. Wright St.                 \             \ ~~~~~~   \
Urbana IL 61801                   ==).            \__________\
                                 (__)             ()__________)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: They (was Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language))
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:29:42 GMT

In article <BzL4yC.L31@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>Rosemary Waigh writes:
>>Most people my age do not post on the net.  
>
>So their absence indicates their agreement with your statement???
No, I have talked to them in real life, since early childhood!

>Anyway, most people of ANY age don't post to the net. That doesn't
>prove anything.
It proves that you can't use the net as a reliable sample.  There is a
great deal of self-selection.
>
>>The net is hardly representative of the population in general.  
>That is debatable. People from different backgrounds post to the net
>and the variety in opinions you encounter here, is hardly observed
>in real life.
It is hardly representative *because* it is hardly observed in real life.
Everyone I know feels comfortable saying "they" as they always have without 
having to write article on the net about it.
>
>>(And even the people on the net who have
>>opposed the use of "they" in lieu of "he" occasionally slip and use "they"
>>forms!)
>Nobody's perfect! Don't tell me that you ALWAYS write *without* a
>single grammatical/spelling mistake.
Ah, but it's not a mistake, it's the natural (as opposed to hypercorrected)
way of writing!

I take a *descriptive* approach rather than a *prescriptive* approach:  i.e.
the rules of English are those that describe how adult native speakers of
English really speak, not how a few prescriptivists wish they spoke.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Xref: sparky soc.college:5525 alt.usage.english:9487
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:09:05 GMT
 <1992Dec12.002855.643@cdf.toronto.edu> <101793@netnews.upenn.edu>  
 <1992Dec13.194608.22045@cdf.toronto.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu

I propose the following word meaning 'any woman, studying in her first
year at a college or university, who insists on the use of so-called
gender-neutral language':

'freshbitch'

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have known it would be bad vodka when all the label said was
'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: soc.college
From: boudreau@athena.mit.edu (Carol V Boudreau)
Subject: Re: Athletics over Academics at CU, surely not.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:57:13 GMT

In article <EJH.92Dec15172925@khonshu.colorado.edu>, ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:


|> Absurd. This is a University, not the East Boulder Rec. Center or
|> Madison Square Garden, where all comers are treated equally. In those
|> places the basketball team has a right to insist that if their
|> properly scheduled time was being used by someone else, they should
|> have precedance. But in a University athletics should always take a
|> back seat. Though no doubt the French department was at fault, the 500
|> students taking a final should not be interupted in any case. The
|> practice should have been relocated or canceled, then the basketball
|> coach can take whatever steps needed to make sure it doesn't happen
|> again. This should be obvious to every University employee. But it is

What steps would you recommend that the basketball team take to make sure
it doesn't happen again?  How about making sure that they have the
facility booked and no one else does.  What?  You mean they did that?
How can a basketball team be expected to check with every academic
department before every scheduled practice and game to make sure
no one has decided that they wish to use the gymnasium. (Note that
a gymnasium is an athletic facility)  I can see it now;  "Excuse me,
we were planning on having a practice this afternoon, you weren't
planning on putting 500 people in there without letting us know
were you?  ok thanks."  If an athletic team wanted to use a 
classroom, they would make sure it wasn't booked first, just like
an academic department should make sure a gymnasium wasn't booked
before they show up to use it.  The french department is clearly
at fault here, and some people should probably be reprimanded 
for the mishap, but it should not be someone from the athletic 
department.


|> not. On the contrary, it was obvious to the Grad students that, not
|> only is the athletic department as important as acedemics, it's more
|> important.
|> 
|> I hope others will join me in writing to Ms. Albino and expressing our
|> concern, as taxpayers, that CU is failing in it's central mission,
|> education.
|> 
|> --
|> 	Don't blame me, I voted against Amendment 2!
|> 
|> Edward Hartnett				ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu
|> 

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
message from the terminal of:
Carol Boudreau  <boudreau@Athena.mit.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: ens@ccu.umanitoba.ca ()
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:43:35 GMT

In <1992Dec13.194608.22045@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:

>From _The_Handbook_of_Nonsexist_Writing_ by Casey Miller and Kate Swift:
>"Recent studies of college students and school children indicate that the 
>broad
>definitions of *man* and *men* [i.e. to refer to all humans and not just 
>males],
>although still taught, have to a significant degree become inoperative at a
>subliminal level.  Phrases like *economic man* and *political man*, or
>statements like 'Man domesticated animals' and 'Man is a dreamer,' it turns
>out, tend to call up images of male people only, not female people or females
>and males together." (p 10)

This is no doubt true, but it is also necessary to demonstrate that
the same cannot be said of phrases like 'economic person' or
'political person'. It so happens that most of the horse-breakers were
male.  The word 'doctor' still calls up an image of a male figure
for many people. That this is changing has nothing to do with
language. 

I am not arguing against gender-neutral language; only that the 
justification you give is insufficient.

Werner
Xref: sparky soc.college:5676 alt.usage.english:9647 rec.humor:36670
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english,alt.flame.spelling,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Tenants of English
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:16:22 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article <1992Dec17.031720.2246@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.210011.17438@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec16.180019.15692@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu> willson@seas.gwu.edu (Stephen R. Willson) writes:
>>>>Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)
>>
>>>I don't know -- who's the landlord of English?
>>
>>>Ted "pitch your tenets here, boys, we'll ride at dawn" Frank
>>
>>"Tenace, anyone?"  -- Charles Goren

>I'd love to, but I only have genes to wear.

You know what they say about diarrhea, it runs in the jeans!

 ----------------------!!! H A P P Y   H O L I D A Y S !!!-------------------
 ObQuotes:
 "Ignorance and prejudice, confident their ways are best..."
 "Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand..."

  - Patrick Taylor, Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                    "Don't let the .se fool you"
    Visit the SOUNDING BOARD BBS 214-596-2915, a Wildcat! BBS
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: grweiss@ernst.Princeton.EDU (Gregory Robert Weiss)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:40:24 GMT

In article <1ggp8rINNivb@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> garvey@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Heather Garvey) writes:
>roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>>
>>>Of course, just saying 'first-year' doesn't specify which year the
>>>student will graduate.
>>
>>Neither does "freshman"... 8-)
>
>	Yes, it does. Freshman is a much kinder term. :) 

Why be kind? ;->  I think we should call them all freshlings.  It's PC;
neither masculine nor feminine, but it still has that derogatory potential so 
important when labelling freshmen. :-)

  --Greg 
    grweiss@phoenix.princeton.edu
Xref: sparky soc.college:5625 alt.usage.english:9602