From: andrean@cs.utexas.edu (Andre A. Nurwono)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: to all Portuguese
Date: 9 Nov 1992 23:47:06 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: ozona.cs.utexas.edu


>East Timor is a colony, therefore in many ways not truly part of
>Indonesia, the country (by definition of colony).  No wonder the East
>Timorese are unhappy about their situation.

Sigh, this is getting nowhere. This information is already false
by default, your premise being incorrect. It is NOT being considered
a colony. Period.

>If the Indonesian were unhappy in the years of the dutch colonisation,
>surely they, of all people, can understand the feelings of the East
>Timorese, which after being colonised by the Portuguese for ~500
>years, now have to face another colonial power for who knows how many
>years.

Irrelevant. ET is NOT being considered a colony. It is being
considered as PART of Indonesia, integral to Indonesia, BEING
Indonesian. A colony would be given its own independent government,
which sole purpose is to exploit the colony for the owner's
needs. Indonesia is not exploiting ET in any way.

>So they now can read and write.  Shouldn't they be given also a chance
>to decide their own future ?

They are. But first, make them ABLE to support themselves first.
Even THIS is if ET was considered a COLONY, WHICH IT IS NOT.
IT IS NOT EVEN CONSIDERED A PART, IT IS BEING CONSIDERED AS
INTEGRAL TO INDONESIA AS YOUR HEAD IS TO YOUR BODY.

-------------------
The following discussions is not even relevant to the ET issues
today, I just wrote it to counter your false reasoning, assuming
that the false premise is true (ET is considered only PART of Ind.)
-------------------

>Yes, now they can read, they have clinics (hospitals), even schools,
>roads, everything.  Who knows, in a few years they will have TV, a
>VCR, etc.  They coudn't be happier! :-(.

What are you saying ???
In my opinion, they'd be happier having their NECESSARY goods to
LIVE than being free without it. Without a home, I'd be homeless.
Without food, I'd be dead. Without clothing, I'd be a wandering weirdo.
Without school, I'd be a society's refuse. Without clinics, I'd probably
be on crutches.
Indonesia is still in its DEVELOPMENT region. Targeting
people to own personal TV sets is not a target for the government.
Targeting people to have their own homes, and able to buy their
own rice IS though.

>What if they would trade their literacy, their schools, their roads,
>and all the progress Indonesia brought for the freedom to choose their
>own way of live ?

Are you kidding ??!??
Whose welfare are we talking about here ?

In my book, freedom has its limits, it is not everything, it is not
the whole world, it is not what ultimately makes a good life.
I seem to see a very different culture here, this 'freedom' stuff
is important, but the way you interpret it, it is just an idealist's dream.

Before you start flaming me as a conservatist, let me point out first
that this has become a cultural friction between the most basic
'Eastern' culture and 'Western' culture.
Indonesians fall under the 'Eastern' type culture.
For instance, a typical Indonesian family has very basic values
where younger people always look up to older people, wether it is
their brother, parents, grandparents, etc. Being a virtuous
human being is being somebody who cares for their family, i.e.
strong family ties.
It is different from the way 'Westerners' see it. A child in a
typical western family is educated from young to be SELF SUPPORTIVE,
unrelying on anybody, not even their parents,
(like a lot of adolescent teenagers shouting idealistic bullshit,
 like I used to do, hey, its OK, but you don't want to go too far
 and wreck the neighborhood like what happened in LA)
while in a typical eastern family, children are always in close
range with their parents, supportive but respectful on one another.
The parent really wants to make sure the children could support themselves
before letting them go.

ET fits here as still one young kid.
You don't let your kid wander around or even banish them from
home to get a job (like what probably often happens in Portugal (sic)).
The father (Ind. gov) wants ET here to graduate first before getting a job.
You're telling ET to get a job while he's still in Junior High.
Now ET thinks he knows how the world works. So he wants to be
'free' of his family, quit school and get a job so he can get rich quick.
ET wouldn't object, because he's got lots of friends, i.e Portugal
to rely upon. But the way Ind. sees, it, ET still needs caring for
and wouldn't just throw ET into the streets to be another social waste,
where in the streets Ind wouln't be able to reach ET anymore.

You're gonna give a bunch of illeterate people to run their own country ???
No doubt they're gonna get 'FOOLED' by other strong nations such that
it becomes a 'TOY DOLL' country, i.e. being controlled by another
country under the mask of having its own government, being independent.
And it wouldn't do shit to the country's welfare.

Look at Latin America, being a 'TOY' country to the US.
Is it near anything like the US ???
What's the percentage of illeterate people in Brunei when it was released ?
And what's the statistics on the Slavic nations ?
It wouln't even compare to ET!

>Can we, in conscience, live without knowing what they really want for
>themselves ?

Would you even know what a 1 year old baby is saying ?
Would you let your 13 year old boy go out with his friends to get a beer ??
And I thought 17 year olds already knew what their parents knew.
They still got a looong way to go...

-- 
Andre Nurwono               | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
andrean@cs.utexas.edu       |  thrust... (BOINNNG!)"  - Daffy Duck
-- 
Andre Nurwono               | "Ho, haha, guard, turn, dodge, parry, spin, ha,
andrean@cs.utexas.edu       |  thrust... (BOINNNG!)"  - Daffy Duck