Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.amateur-comp,talk.politics.misc,misc.misc
From: mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: GM Plant Closures Again? Won't Solve the Economic Problems
Organization: Oracle Corporation
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:24:20 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Dec16.233506.4160@xsoft.xerox.com> gorelik@xsoft.xerox.com (Mike Gorelik) writes:
>In <1992Dec14.185844.6519@oracle.us.oracle.com>, mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:
>|> In  <1992Dec10.010753.10523@xsoft.xerox.com> gorelik@xsoft.xerox.com (Mike Gorelik) writes:
>|> >In <1992Dec9.225007.8348@hal.com>, bobp@hal.com (Bob Pendleton) writes:
>|> 
>|> 
>|> >|> But let me decide if I want to work 80 hours a week or not. 
>|> 
>|> >If you want it, fine. But what if you want to work 40 hours 
>|> >and your employer wants you for 80? For 40 hours pay. Than what? 
>|> 
>|> Same as if he wants me to work for 40 hours but only get 20 hours pay
>|> - I say no.  This sanction seems to work quite adequately already.

>I'm glad your job is secure, I really do. What about people who are not
>so fortunate? Should employer have power to work them any number of hours?

Mr. Gorelik, perhaps you have reading comprehension problems.  Today,
except for employees who make less then double the minimum wage (a
pretty small minority) employers can demand that they work forty hours
for twenty hours pay.  This does not happen.  Why?  Becasue the
employees will quit.  Can you explain why this sanction will not also
work for your 80 hours for 40 hours pay example?

>|> >How about a law about time and half overtime pay? I bet you would hate 
>|> >to take home 2.5 times your regular paycheck for your 80 hours weeks.

>|> Cute idea.  

>Thank you, it is not  mine. Some places in this country, many (most, all?) corps
>in Japan pay overtime to all non-management employees.

>|> Only one problem - if you aren't being seriously
>|> underpaid, 

>Compare to what?

Compared to the benefit the company receives from your services.

>|> time and a half makes you a bad deal.  

>Why we pay $10 for overnight delivery? It is a bad deal compare to a
>regular 29c letter, no?  Overtime work is something unusual and
>sudden, a premium over standard wage rate is, usually or should be,
>justified.  For an employer to get that extra service for free is a
>steal-deal, as with all free services it is being overused and misused.

Mike, I really wish I had some of what you're smoking.

1.  The $10.000 overnight delivery is a significantly differnet
service from the 29c letter.

2.  Overtime work is often not sudden.  I once worked for a company
where we fudged the books by agreement.  I worked fifty hours.  My
time sheets said forty.  I got a 20% raise.  Great deal for both of
us.  Totally illegal.

3.  You claim that employers are getting overtime for free.  This is
totally untrue - they need to pay for it.  Doing otherwise is illegal.

4.  Talk to some of the hourly people at Xerox.  Most of them will tell
you that they are not allowed to put in more than a 40 hour week.
Some will be happy with that.  Others will tell you that they would
work 45 or 50 if they could - they need the money.  Unfortunately,
their extra service is not worth time and a half to Xerox and good old
Uncle Sam won't let them cut their own deal.

>|> At Oracle, hourly
>|> employees need to get special permission to work over 40 hours a week.
>|> Usually they don't get it because the work they do isn't worth 1.5
>|> times their base salary

>Or there is a line of people ready to fill additional positions at
>the company and  
>do that work for the base salary.

Oh sure, but what's your point?  We would much rather have four people
working 50 than five working 40.  We would be happy to accomodate them
if it wasn't for the labor laws.

>|> - if it was we would be paying them that much base.

>Most businesses are not as  humane and people caring as Oracle apparently is. 
>Most businesses set pay based on labor market situation subject to 
>business and regulatory constrains. 

Of course.  That's the definition of what a job is worth.

>It is likely that some
>Oracle employees in the developing countries produce as much
>for company as US based employees, yet Oracle pays them 
>wages which are set locally.

Of course.  What's your point?  They aren't worth more.  Why?  Because
we can get equivalent services for what we pay.

-- 
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I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.