HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:58:36 GMT
Organization: Emory University, Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

crosmun@crosmun.rtp.dg.com (William Crosmun) writes:
: >
: 
: I detect a double standard here.  You are holding me responsible for the actions of
: my government during the war (a responibility I am willing to accept, BTW), but you
: hold the Iraqi people "innocent" for the actions of their government.  Now, I'll
: admit that Sadam Hussein is a dictator, but the recent examples of Rumania, The
: Soviet Union, East Germany, Poland, etc.  show that even a dictator can not rule
: without the support of the people.  These "innocent" Iraqis supported Hussein when
: he invaded Kuwait and they were willing to accept the fruits of victory. I do not
: consider them to be "innocent" victims of US aggression.
: 
: 
: 
: ===============================================================================
llllll
: William Crosmun            

Yeah, boy- Saddam wouldn't stay in power a minute if it weren't for
the support of those starving babies.
Wasn't the (fictional) story that Iraqi soldiers were slaughtering
babies one of the largest factors in popular support for the war
here in the US?  Doesn't it seem ironic to anybody that the war
and it's aftermath are now resulting in the (real) deaths of Iraqi
babies?
I'm not sure exactly what the solution to this moral dilemma should
have been- something had to be done about Saddam, as the
President's opponents in congress had been saying for several years
prior to the war- but to deny that there's any moral ambiguity here
seems fatuous.

Bill   
: crosmun@dg-rtp.dg.com
: 
: ===============================================================================
: "Above all, as the keynote of all Democratic policy, in passing upon any
:  question, let the controlling aim and ambition be to keep the road open for
:  private enterprise and personal initiative."
: 
:              John W. Davis - Democratic candidate for President - 1924
: 
: ===============================================================================
: "I do not want to live under a philanthropy.  I do not want to be taken care
:  of by the government.... We do not want a benevolent government.  We want a
:  free and a just government."
: 
:              Woodrow Wilson  
: 
: ===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: crosmun@crosmun.rtp.dg.com (William Crosmun)
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 20:48:07 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <1idcggINNav1@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:
>In article 10666, gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes,
>in part:
>
>> Yet how can
>>you look at the conditions in Somalia and just pontificate away
>>about the relative value of human life?  Because we botched the
>>job in Iraq and propped up the Kuwaiti royal family, must we now
>>just leave the people of Somalia to their own fate?
>
>One other thing, Gerry: We didn't just "botch the job" in Iraq. 
>We killed a lot of innocent people there, just as we have done
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We killed about 100,000 of the Iraqi military.  These people were massed on
the Saudi border, armed and prepared to invade, seize property, and maim and
kill innocent Saudis.  They were already doing that in Kuwait.  By what
stretch do you consider these to be "innocent" people?

>all of over the world.  I tend to think that our actively and
>directly causing those deaths puts "the job" in Iraq in a
>different moral class from the inaction I advocate in regard to
>Somalia.
>
>



===============================================================================
William Crosmun
crosmun@dg-rtp.dg.com

===============================================================================
"Above all, as the keynote of all Democratic policy, in passing upon any
 question, let the controlling aim and ambition be to keep the road open for
 private enterprise and personal initiative."

             John W. Davis - Democratic candidate for President - 1924

===============================================================================
"I do not want to live under a philanthropy.  I do not want to be taken care
 of by the government.... We do not want a benevolent government.  We want a
 free and a just government."

             Woodrow Wilson  

===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: eechung@uxmail.ust.hk (CHUNG KAI CHEUNG)
Subject: Civil War in Somalia
Organization: Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:19:32 GMT

Dear all,

	I heard one comment about civil war in Somalia from RTHK radio 1 
yesterday morning and think that it is meaningful. Thus, I would like to 
share this comment with all of you after my own translation :-

"In Chinese, there is one idiom. It says "If one makes trouble first, the one
should take the consequence". If western people don't understand its meaning,
they can look at the situation in Somalia. After 1 to 2-year civil war, more
than 300 thousand people has been killed. If it is continued, no people can be
found in the country within ten to twenty years. I don't understand why the
armed forces doesn't stop their war as they saw that the people in their 
country is at the edge of dead! And it caused that the peace talk was hold 
outside their country. 

Originally, if the salvation action is only for salvation, it is fine. But if
it also involves the showing of political power, it is what a bad situation is!
US expressed that they will withdraw their army by 20th of January. But they 
also said that the army of United Nation has no enough power to keep the 
situation under control. US intended to show that their power is over that of
UN. 

For that, UN is trying to persuade German to continue the work of US army after
they go back to US."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.esperanto
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: [Usono] alta produkto-grado en Usono                                            [United States] high productivity in the U.S.A.
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:39:26 GMT

In article <uos3b30@zola.esd.sgi.com> cigno@sgi.com (Kevin Walsh) writes:
           {linioj fortranc^itaj}
>
>Kien iras la valoro de nia laboro?  al autoj?  al militoj?   Mi vere ne 
>scias.  Sed estas klara ke io estas rompita.  

Kompreneble unu grava kialo estas ke varoj, precipe mang^aj^o kaj vestoj,
estas malpli kostaj en Usono ol en Eu^ropo kaj Japanio. Kaj ankau^ komputiloj
kaj libroj. Ili estas malpli kostaj c^ar la salajroj estas malpli altaj.
(Nu, ne la _salajro_ mem ofte, sed se oni enkalkulas la salajron kaj la
asekurojn, kaj la libertempojn, ktp, la kosto estas malpli.) C^u la publiko
akceptus pagi pli altajn prezojn? C^u iu pretas proponi 5-dolaran galonon 
da benzino? 

Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
From: kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: 7 Jan 1993 00:00:54 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article 10707, crosmun@crosmun.rtp.dg.com (William Crosmun)
writes:

>We killed about 100,000 of the Iraqi military.  These people
>were massed on
>the Saudi border, armed and prepared to invade, seize property,
>and maim and
>kill innocent Saudis.  They were already doing that in Kuwait. 
>By what
>stretch do you consider these to be "innocent" people?

Those aren't the people I'm talking about, William.  Perhaps it
escaped your notice that many more people were killed who were
not wearing uniforms and who had no interest whatsoever in the
U.S. - Iraqi conflict.  The people I'm referring to were by and
large too young to care: there's a virtual demographic hole in
Iraq's population because so many children died through
starvation and the diseases that followed your destruction of the
country's infrastructure.  Many other innocent people of all ages
were killed outright in the bombing and in ground operations. 
These casualties have been well reported in the aftermath of the
war; they are a matter of record, although the final toll is not
yet known because the effects of your actions have not yet ceased
to be felt.





Xref: sparky soc.culture.usa:9568 comp.sys.misc:1041
From: barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,comp.sys.misc
Subject: Re: US export restriction for encryption algorithms?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 18:06:56 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

In article <1ih7v1INNkif@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE> georg@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Georg Schwarz) writes:
>Does anyone know the idea (if there is any?) behind this law?

Encryption devices (both hardware and software) are considered to be
munitions, and are therefore regulated much the same way export of missiles
are.

>What would prevent me from buying a US version of such a program and
>taking it out of the country on my own (e.g. via modem)?

The same thing that prevents you from breaking most laws: fear of being
caught and prosecuted.


-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: s1400070@nickel.laurentian.ca
Subject: Re: Gulf war, Iran/Iraq aircraft
Organization: Laurentian University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:17:35 GMT

In article <C0KquA.G7K@panix.com>, dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
> Way back, during the "gulf war," numerous reports were repeased by teh
> Pentagon (and, as far as I recall, NEVER confirmed by either Iran nor
> Iraq) that Iraqi pilots had taken their planes to Iran for safekeeping.
> 
> Questions: 1) Does anybody else remember this?
>        2) Did anybody hear or see any other (i.e. non-US-DOD) reliable
> sources on this story, and
>      3) Whatever happened to the planes and pilots?
> 
> thanks
> dannyb@panix.com
> 
>


     This is true.  I believe that there was a total of some 20-30 migs that
flew into Iran for safekeeping.  The Iranian government said that the planes
would be given back after the end of hostilities.  A couple of weeks later, 
though, Iran said that it was keeping the planes as partial payment for 
damages that it had incurred during their 8 year war with Iraq.  The planes now
belong to the Iranian air force but I am not sure about the fate of the pilots.
     I seem to remember the Prime Minister of Canada confirming the reports of
these defections.  There was a squadron of Canadian F-18's that was protecting
coalition shipping.  It was expressed that all approaching enemy aircraft would
be shot down regardless of their intentions. (ie. they would be downed even if
it appeared that they were trying to defect to Iran.)  If the Canadian 
government recognized these defections, then, I would have to say that they 
really did occur.  The Pentagon, on the other hand, may not want to stress the 
defections to Iran because Iran is also a traditional enemy of the USA.

                                                    John

Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein)
Subject: Gulf war, Iran/Iraq aircraft
Organization: Panix, NYC
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 06:46:57 GMT

Way back, during the "gulf war," numerous reports were repeased by teh
Pentagon (and, as far as I recall, NEVER confirmed by either Iran nor
Iraq) that Iraqi pilots had taken their planes to Iran for safekeeping.

Questions: 1) Does anybody else remember this?
       2) Did anybody hear or see any other (i.e. non-US-DOD) reliable
sources on this story, and
     3) Whatever happened to the planes and pilots?

thanks
dannyb@panix.com
From: kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: 8 Jan 93 01:21:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1iikufINN5l3
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

From news.u.washington.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!crosmun!crosmun Thu Jan  7 16:58:20 PST 1993
Article: 10755 of soc.culture.usa
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: crosmun@crosmun.rtp.dg.com (William Crosmun)
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 16:24:31 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <1ifrrmINNsqi@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:
>In article 10707, crosmun@crosmun.rtp.dg.com (William Crosmun)
>writes:
>
>>We killed about 100,000 of the Iraqi military.  These people
>>were massed on
>>the Saudi border, armed and prepared to invade, seize property,
>>and maim and
>>kill innocent Saudis.  They were already doing that in Kuwait. 
>>By what
>>stretch do you consider these to be "innocent" people?
>
>Those aren't the people I'm talking about, William.  Perhaps it
>escaped your notice that many more people were killed who were
>not wearing uniforms and who had no interest whatsoever in the
>U.S. - Iraqi conflict.  The people I'm referring to were by and
>large too young to care: there's a virtual demographic hole in
>Iraq's population because so many children died through
>starvation and the diseases that followed your destruction of the
>country's infrastructure.  Many other innocent people of all ages
>were killed outright in the bombing and in ground operations. 
>These casualties have been well reported in the aftermath of the
>war; they are a matter of record, although the final toll is not
>yet known because the effects of your actions have not yet ceased
>to be felt.
>

I detect a double standard here.  You are holding me responsible for the actions of
my government during the war (a responibility I am willing to accept, BTW), but you
hold the Iraqi people "innocent" for the actions of their government.  Now, I'll
admit that Sadam Hussein is a dictator, but the recent examples of Rumania, The
Soviet Union, East Germany, Poland, etc.  show that even a dictator can not rule
without the support of the people.  These "innocent" Iraqis supported Hussein when
he invaded Kuwait and they were willing to accept the fruits of victory. I do not
consider them to be "innocent" victims of US aggression.



===============================================================================
William Crosmun
crosmun@dg-rtp.dg.com

===============================================================================
"Above all, as the keynote of all Democratic policy, in passing upon any
 question, let the controlling aim and ambition be to keep the road open for
 private enterprise and personal initiative."

             John W. Davis - Democratic candidate for President - 1924

===============================================================================
"I do not want to live under a philanthropy.  I do not want to be taken care
 of by the government.... We do not want a benevolent government.  We want a
 free and a just government."

             Woodrow Wilson  

===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,misc.invest
From: vuarien@cullion.incendiary.edu (Jonathan Wild)
Subject: Re: Speeding Ticket: Subtelty in answering the officer?
Organization: hardly
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:07:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.172212.24911@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:

>Today has not been the best of days. I was doing around 35-38 in 
>a 30 mile zone and got trapped by the cop. 


>My question is this: If I choose to appeal the citation, would
>I have been better off if I insisted that I was going within
>the speed limit or I did not admit that I was traveling at
>an illegal speed? 

>What are my chances of a reversal in either case?

Well soc.culture.usa must sure be a can of worms..  xpost
to misc.invest is very annoying and out of line, but maybe you don't have
a group like ca.driving (where cops are the basic topic) so what to do?
Here's my suggestion: 
	-- claim no specific speed, as has been suggested... just say,
		"I was going what seemed the safe, average speed of flow.."

	-- take it to court, ask for reductions, ask for jury trial if it
		applies.  ask for jury for everything, until the cops are
		forced to quit coming down on lame no-threat crimes like 
		this, lest the justice system grind to a halt.

	-- distribute flyers outside the courthouse reminding jurors of 
		their right to decide on the basis of the constitutionality
		of the _law_ that is in question, not just the violator(s)!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: eac@world.std.com (Eric A Cottrell)
Subject: Re: Is New York the only city in the USA to have a subway?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:52:43 GMT

In <jyc.726450739@Leland> jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>thing I noticed when I got on the London Underground was that, unlike
>any U.S. subway, the destitute, the drunk, the dangerous, and the
>clinically insane seemed to form only a very small minority of the
>passengers.    
But you have to remember to "mind the gap". At least in Boston the cars
reach the platform.
73 Eric eac@world.std.com

Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: ARCHER@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:26:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.011826.14743@ncsa.uiuc.edu> jsue@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Jeffrey L. Sue) writes:
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!cs.utk.edu!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!jsue
>In article <1i55slINN8u@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.
edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:>>
>>I also think we have no business being in Somalia, just as we had no
>>business in Viet Nam, Granada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Lebanon, Kuwait,
>>Korea, or any other place where our imagined interests were imaginarily
>>at stake.
>>
>
>Perhaps you believe that we (the US) can exist in isolation?
>Wasn't this disproved before?  

No.

>I'm not saying that we should have been in all
>of those conflicts, however to say that we do not have a vested interest
>in what else is going on in the world is very short-sighted, if not comletely
>lacking in reality.  Our vested interests in many historical conflicts in
>the long-term include economical interests as well as eventual "loss of
>lives" interests.

US miltary involvement in forgien affairs has usually cost more that staying 
home.  We are the only nation in history that I am aware of that pays war-
debts.

>
>I'd always felt that past world wars were started with fairly small,
>regional conflicts, but grew out of control before they ended.  I
>think that "nipping it in the bud" has probably saved lives in the long
>run in conflicts like Granada, Nicaragua & Kuwait.  Somalia is hardly
>comparable to our intervention in those conflicts as it's mainly to
>ensure the delivery of food - ie save lives! 

How long are we going to do this, and who is going to pay for it?

> This is why we act under
>the auspices of the U.N., so the US isn't the only country held 
>accountable for what happens in the world.  

We bear over 80% of the cost and supply over 70% of the manpower.  This is 
not a "united action."

>We just happen to be the
>one country in the position to do anything about it.

Japan has money.  Germany has a military.  Let them deal with it.  They won'
t have to lift their resources over two oceans and around half the planet.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Xref: sparky soc.culture.usa:9499 comp.sys.misc:1037
From: georg@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Georg Schwarz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,comp.sys.misc
Subject: US export restriction for encryption algorithms?
Date: 6 Jan 1993 12:22:18 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
NNTP-Posting-Host: marie.physik.tu-berlin.de

Is it correct that there are restrictions for US software companies
distributing software that contain certain encryption algorithms outside
the US and Canada?
Could anyone please present further details.
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: US interventionism
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:48:47 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1idcggINNav1@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:
>In article 10666, gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes,
>in part:
>
>> Yet how can
>>you look at the conditions in Somalia and just pontificate away
>>about the relative value of human life?  Because we botched the
>>job in Iraq and propped up the Kuwaiti royal family, must we now
>>just leave the people of Somalia to their own fate?
>
>One other thing, Gerry: We didn't just "botch the job" in Iraq. 
>We killed a lot of innocent people there, just as we have done
>all of over the world.  I tend to think that our actively and
>directly causing those deaths puts "the job" in Iraq in a
>different moral class from the inaction I advocate in regard to
>Somalia.

Good point.  But I am not ready to concede absolutely that the
action was entirely wrong.  This whole question of what our interests
really are viz a viz the rest of the world is not an easy one
to answer.  And that includes the opposition to totalitarianism
and terrorism.  

Yet I am also becoming more and more convinced that,
my stated opinions notwithstanding, most forms of action
on a national scale are going to be either fruitless or
counterproductive, or downright destructive.  Somehow there
has got to be a better way to work from individuals outward.

Gerry (73237.2006@compuserve.com)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
From: philip@world.std.com (Philip Borenstein)
Subject: Re: Is New York the only city in the USA to have a subway?
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 04:18:59 GMT

ed@wente.llnl.gov (Ed Suranyi) writes:

>In article <1993Jan5.183145.18587@spider.co.uk> michaelr@spider.co.uk (Michael S. A. Robb) writes:
>>Having watched a couple of films with scenes located in New York's
>>subway, some friends and I wondered whether any other cities in the
>>USA also had subways, and whether they were given such a bad image
>>as New York's. Any information which would bring enlightenment would
>>be welcome.

The Boston subway has a fairly benign reputation, though some lines are
more infamous than others. One reason the subway (called the "T") in
Boston is so tame is that it shuts down by 1:00AM. Another reason is that
it's relatively small: four lines with connections among all four
downtown. It's neither charming nor quaint, but it works. Most of the time.