From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Subject: 25 states ... .sig (Re: Full-Auto 22s manufactured by Drug-Crazed DEATH SQUADS in GLASGOW)
Organization: gte
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:35:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.113141.20478@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
> jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow) writes:
> 
> >>"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street
> >>with no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US
> >>murders are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"  
> >>-  Andrew Ford
> 
> >The ones who don't realize "the other half of the country" has 80% of the
> >population.
> 
> >Not literally true, but close enough to expose the trick.
> 
> >- Jeff Winslow
> 
> Not close enough.
> 
> 1)  There is no set of 25 states with anywhere near 80% of the population.
> 
> 2)  Even if you could assemble a set like this, it could certainly not
> be done without including the open carry states that Andrew refers to.
> 
> 3)  The states with the most restricive firearms laws have the highest
> _per capita_ crime rate and murder rate, so their pops are irrelevent.
> These restrictive laws often predate the high crime rates, showing,
> to many, a causative relationship.
> 
> Followups-To directed to talk.politics.guns only.
> 
Jim, thanks for coming to bat, but I must confess that Jeff is closer
than you are.

It is actually 75% of the population getting 80% of the murders.
Still, if gun control works, you'd expect less crime in areas
of gun control.  The truth of the matter is that gun control 
does not affect crime very much and it probably increases it:
in the history of this country every ban goods in demand has
resulted in a strong black market and an increase in violent 
crime (Witness: alcohol, drugs, prostitution, and gambling)

And before anyone starts to complain about me not telling
the whole truth, HEY, AT LEAST I DIDN'T LIE! (like our
friends at HCI.)

The above quote is entirely accurate: it is also of very
little importance, but I have learned from the tactics
of HCI, et al: significance is irrelevant, emotional 
appeal takes the day --- But I still insist on not 
telling an outright lie

BTW, I won't be able to continue with this thread as it
is in t.p.g only and we still don't get the talk heriarchy 8(.
Please respond with email if you want more info or want to 
flame me.

The data for the above follows:

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Previous response sent by me via personal email.
!"A gun in your home is 47 times more likely to kill someone you
!know" is also meaningless on its own -- and neither statement 
!deserves the credit of being called a statistic -- factoid, maybe.
!
!Those states with the 80% of the murders have 75% of the population.
!If gun control "worked," you'd expect lower crime rates -- if that's
!what gun control is supposed to do.  However, it does not work that
!way in real life.  
!
!The "gun control" states have more murders per capita for a whole host
!of reasons, a small part of which is gun laws, but the biggest part is
!the failure of the common citizen to stand up and help his fellow man
!(with or without a gun).  As cities grow, people begin to accept that
!security and welfare are the gov't's responsibility, so they become less
!likley to act and more likely to wait for the cops to show up.  In the
!largest of cities, people don't even bother to call the cops -- they
!expect that all the other people will call. 
!
!D.C. is the murder capitol of the US (and possibly the world): it is
!also the gun control capitol of the US.  DC has a population of 660,000
!(1990), an almost total ban on guns, and a murder rate of 77.7 (1990).
!
!Phoenix, Arizona is the nation's tenth largest city (pop almost 2
!million) and, for 1990, had a murder rate less than 15.4 (if all the
!murders committed in the state were committed in Phoenix it would be
!15.4 -- it is probably in the range of 10 - 14 murders per 100,000
!people -- anyone can buy a gun, load it, strap it on, and walk down the
!street).  
!
!Both cities are metropolitan, both cities have a large number of poor
!(Phoenix is a "homeless haven" because of its warm winters -- some
!years we don't even get a freeze! 8^)  The chief differences are 
!that Phoenix's minorities are more hispanic than black and Phoenicians
!are still free people with the right to protect themselves.  (Laws
!concerning justification in this state protect the person who truly
!defends himself both from criminal and civil liability -- and most
!justified shootings don't even result in an arrest or confiscation
!of the gun -- even some unjustified shootings result in nothing more
!than an explanation of the law and a stern "Be careful" from the 
!police!)
!
!We even took it a step further a year or two ago: under a recently
!enacted law, if a person is killed during a commission of a felony
!as a result of the felony being committed, all suspects are charged
!with murder.  I recently read where a Tucson teenager was charged 
!with murder when her brother was shot and killed by a gun-shop owner
!whom the suspect, her brother and another teenager were trying to
!rob.  Talk about poetic justice!  
!
!My basic position is this:
!
!    Guns don't affect crime, people affect crime.  When 
!    ordinary citizens stand ready, willing, and able to act
!    against criminals during the commission of a crime, 
!    crime rates decline.  When ordinary citizens hide away 
!    and hope that "Big Brother" will take care of it, crime 
!    increases.
!
!    When government bans or restricts guns, they make it 
!    difficult or impossible for ordinary citizens to get 
!    and/or use guns.  At the same time, criminals - those
!    who, by definition, break the law - will still get guns,
!    much as they still get drugs in spite of a total ban 
!    (and drugs are consumed, whereas one gun and 1,000 rounds
!    of ammunition can last ten years).  An armed citizen    
!    stands a reasonable chance of surviving an encounter
!    with a criminal -- a disarmed citizen stands a good 
!    chance of being maimed or killed: this is where guns
!    come into the scene, in places where citizens can 
!    carry, more of them are willing to take a proactive
!    stance against crime.
!
!    How can one possibly hope to accomplish any good by 
!    lowering the ratio of armed ordinary citizens to armed
!    criminals?
!
!Want to fight crime?  Start with eliminating plea bargaining and
!parole for felons who have committed a violent act against a person
!during the commission of a felony (I'd consider waving a knife in
!someone's face a violent attack).  Given 25 years for a violent
!assault upon a person, the average criminal would only get one
!repeat offense (just doing that would more than half our crime 
!rate!).
!
!Next, make prisons a miserable place to be instead of a place that
!is better than life on the streets!  Eliminate all recreation 
!facilities (having convicts come out of prison looking like Arnold
!Schwarzenegger does us all a lot of good, now doesn't it?);  Reduce
!the quality of food to edible, but bland (ie: grits for brkfst, 
!steamed vegies for lunch, and beans for dinner);  Eliminate TV 
!(Christ, I don't even get cable TV yet! -- there's not enough left
!over after taking care of the bills and the kids); Eliminate
!conjugal visits, cigarettes, "Christmas packages", etc;  Make them
!sweat like pigs all summer and shivver all winter.  In short, make
!prison an absolute *hell*hole*!
!
!Then, legalize drugs.  Junkies who are high are virtually harmless
!(similar to wino laying in the street drunk); but a junkie needing
!a fix will do anything to anybody to get that fix.  Aside from that,
!legalizing drugs will stop the cash flow which has allowed the gangs
!to arm themselves, will de-glorify drugs (they're so cheap that anyone
!can get 'em), and will take away the incentives ($$$) that pushers have
!for getting people started on drugs.
!
!Also, we ought to eliminate all other "victimless" crimes to allow law 
!enforcement to concentrate on real crimes.
!
!Finally, people need to take a long hard look at the LA riots an realize
!that when it gets right down to it, the world is a cold, harsh place and
!either you protect yourself, friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens or
!you submit to the whims of criminals.  (I really don't think that my
!carrying a gun is going to be of much good to me -- it is far more
!likely that my fellow citizen's gun will brought to my defense or
!vice versa ---and *that* is what made America the great country that
!it once was.)


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Sources: _USA_TODAY_, TUESDAY, JANUARY 7, 1992, PAGE 5A
        and the attached CCW survey
                                          
============================================================
                Open       
                Carry         1990          1991
               Status*      murders      murders
                                              
AL Alabama        R           467          410 
AR Arkansas       R           241          240 
CA California     R          3553         3710 
CT Connecticut    R           166          170 
DC D. C.          R           483          489 
FL Florida        R          1379         1300 
HI Hawaii         R            44           44 
IA Iowa           R            54           62 
IL Illinois       R          1182         1270 
MA Massachusetts  R           243          200 
MD Maryland       R           552          540 
MI Michigan       R           971         1020 
MN Minnesota      R           117          100 
MO Missouri       R           449          550 
NC N. Carolina    R           711          730 
ND N. Dakota      R             5           11 
NJ New Jersey     R           432          350 
NY New York       R          2605         2550 
OH Ohio           R           663          760 
PA Pennsylvania   R           801          740 
RI Rhode Island   R            48           38 
SC S. Carolina    R           390          350 
TN Tennessee      R           511          470 
TX Texas          R          2389         2660 
UT Utah           R            52           43 
WA Washington     R           238          220 

AK Alaska         O            41           56 
AZ Arizona        O           284          290 
CO Colorado       O           138          155 
DE Delaware       O            33           32 
GA Georgia        O           767          720 
ID Idaho          O            27           21 
IN Indiana        O           344          380 
KS Kansas         O            98          150 
KY Kentucky       O           264          260 
LA Louisiana      O           724          760 
ME Maine          O            30           23 
MS Mississippi    O           313          370 
MT Montana        O            39           29 
NE Nebraska       O            43           43 
NH New Hampshire  O            21           32 
NM New Mexico     O           139          160 
NV Nevada         O           116          135 
OK Oklahoma       O           253          220 
OR Oregon         O           108          120 
SD S. Dakota      O            14            9 
VA Virginia       O           545          550 
VT Vermont        O            14           24 
WI Wisconsin      O           225          240 
WV W. Virginia    O           102          135 
WY Wyoming        O            22           20 

Total number of Murders in:                      
  25 Restrictive States + DC 18746        19027
  25 Open Carry States        4704         4934
  50 States & DC             23450        23961

"Open Carry States" are those States which permit all citizens 
to both purchase a gun and carry it unconcealed and loaded  
without a license.

"Restricted Carry States" are those states which restrict or 
prohibit either the purchase or unconcealed carry of guns.

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CCW survey from rec.guns:

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>From hrc!mcdphx!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!dtix!mimsy!az.intel.com Wed Jan 29 10:26:07 1992