From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:29:38 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Aug19.193012.9684@rs.com> horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.143158.13093@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>>>>    o Pressured Israel to make once sided concessions in the
>>>>>      peace process
>>>>
>>>>     * Pressured the Arabs to make concessions too.
>>>
v>>>What pressure? What concessions? Where? But the Arabs were strong and
>>>steadfast, and didn't yield to the pressure.
>>
>>Well, one of the major concessions is the departure from the idea of
>>liberating Palestine and accepting the WB and Gazza. The PLO is not
>>on the negotiating table, although I would not be surprised if this
>>changes in the future. the Arabs demanded Israeli withdrawal first
>>before negotiations,now they don't.
>
>I think we have (not just you and I, but most everyone in t.p.m.) a
>basic difference-of-understanding with regard to the meaning of
>"concession". In fact, it is more of a "double-standard". That is,
>Israeli concessions are/must-be physical/tangible, while Arab
>concessions are/must-be ideological/conceptual.
>
>Israel *returns the Sinai Penninsula* (physical concession), while
>Arabs  *recognize the existance of Israel* (conceptual)
>
>Israel *stops building new settlements* (physical concession), while
>Arabs  *depart from the idea of liberating Palestine...* (`major'
>        ideological concession)
>
>The basis of quid-pro-quo arrangements is that, regardless of whether
>both sides pay with the same `coin', both sides pay the same *value*.
>
>Where is the "parity" between physical and conceptual concessions?
>
>>>>>    o Denied Israel's request for humanitarian assistance in
>>>>>      resettling Russian Jews, and
>>>>>
>>>>     * The United States have always helped Israel to resettle
>>>>       Jews in Israel. Recently the Loan guarantees have been
>>>>       approved.
>>>
>>>Resettle Jews in Israel because of a history of annihilation
>>>in every other country in which we settled (and for the last 44 years
>>>the Arabs have been dedicated to the "final solution" of annihilating
>>>us there, too). And the Loan Guarantees have been approved because
>>>Israel agreed-to and stopped-building new settlements.
>>
>>You make it sound like that building settlements in the territories was
>>a right for Israel to do and they gave up this right for the loan gurantees.
>
>Exactly. When one country is attacked by its neighbor (who, 19 years earlier
>earlier, stole some of that country's land), and defeats that neighbor and
>takes back the stolen land, it regains the right to develop that land. So,
>the FIRST thing it does is relocate part of its population to the newly-
>reclaimed land. It builds roads, sewer and water lines, electrical grids,
>houses and apartments, schools and hospitals, and begins to develop
>industry.
>
>When Jordan declared war on Israel in 1948, and took over the West Bank
>area, it did none of these things. When Israel won it back in 1967, it
>was as if nothing had changed (except for the Jewish cemetaries and places
>of worship and places of historical value that Jordan destroyed).
>
>So, "Yes", Israel gave up this right *not for the loan guarantees*, but
>for peace.
>
>And again I ask, "What are the Arabs giving up? Where are *their*
>concessions?"
>
>>>>Did he really say that? I have never heard it. Why the Palestinians have
>>>>no right and Israel have right?
>>>
>>>Because Jordan=Palestine.
>>>
>>Simply NO! Jordan=Jordan=The Hashemites and Palestine=Palestine=Palestinians.
>>If I go to Jordan with a refugee passport to obtain a visa, they will spit
>>in my face at the airport.
>
>No. The "Hashemites" were just another semi-nomadic tribe, living in the
>Stone Age, when the British (for whatever perverse reason) decided to go
>the Turks one better in screwing the Jews, and took the land on *both* sides
>of the Jordan River and called in Trans-Jordan, and then gave the eastern
>portion to the "Hashemites" and the western portion to Israel, calling it
>"Palestine".
>
>Those "Palestinians" about whom we hear so much are "Jordanians" -- it's the
>Israelis who are the *real* "Palestinians".
>
>As for "refugee passports", well, it's a lot of hooey -- they are Jordanian
>citizens, but that old "Hashemite" won't give them either passports or
>recognize their citizenship, but he'll sure send them dinars... And as for
>spitting in your face, the "Hashemites" are scared silly that if they let
>those "Jordanians" living in Israel back into Jordan, that they would all
>become fundamentalist Moslems and would overthrow their precious "Hashemite"
>kingdom.

And if we want to talk about 'Palestine' passports, it was only the
Jews who would accept them during the period of the mandate.  I
know-my grandmother still has hers.  The Arabs insisted on remaining just
that: Arabs.

-Danny Rothenberg