From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Believers: What Would Make You Not Believe In GOD?
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 12:35:35 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Keywords: So I fixed it 

In article <9JAN199303004506@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) writes:
>>house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house) writes:
>>>"Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>Also, since a fair number of god believers also read this newsgroup, 
>>>>I am curious what would make them no longer believe that god existed.
>
>Speaking as a believer, it's easy. Just simply chose not to believe.
>GOD won't stop you. GOD will help if you chose to believe though.

 One might perhaps 'choose' to abandon an opinion, but most theists claim
that they are a lot more certain than that about 'God's' existence. Could
you 'choose' not to believe that you yourself exist? Could you 'choose'
not to believe that 2+2=4?

[Atheist say, "show x, y, or z & I'll believe"]

>Such as? I'm not sure there is anything anyone could show me including 
>miracles, irrefutable proof, or heaven that would make me believe. I
>don't think there is anyone but GOD who could make me believe, either.
>And GOD won't if I don't want to.

 Well, if someone walked up to me, put their hand on my forehead, and
cried, "In the name of __________ you now have 20/20 vision without
glasses!" and had it come true, I would be inclined to pay them some
attention, at least about whatever they used to fill in the _________.

>I'd have to trust my mind or my self for some x, y and z to be 
>sufficient. And I don't trust my self or anything but trivial matters.

 Well, I guess some of us have different estimations of our own
abilities. Even then, I don't see where I have any choice but to
make do with whatever abilities I have.

>>Theists say, "It is impossible to conceive that God does not exist.  
>
>It's easy -- get drunk. Go to sleep. Have a stroke. etc.
>Merely a mental thing.

 Ah, but what would make you think that this conception was *true*,
if anything?

[deletions]
>Everything human falls apart, since it's part of nature (*).
>
>(* -- Isn't that the second law of thermodynamics or something?)

 Get a good book on Thermodynamics. The 2nd law of thermo is perhaps
the most misunderstood scientific concept ever.

>The easiest way to be a believer is just do it like a kid.
>Unbelief for a child is harder, but still just a matter of doubting.

 Little kids also believe in Santa Claus if they're told to.

[deletions]
>And even Judas repented (Matthew 27:3). So maybe even Hitler did before
>he blew his brains out. (Or however he commited suicide, if you can
>believe the historical propaganda.) And maybe despite his twisted brain, 
>Jeffrey Dahmer believes as well. Imagine that, Dahmer and Hitler saved, 
>while all the disbelievers damn themselves. 

 I don't see any reasonable option but not to believe. I am quite honest
about this, though many theists insist that I must be mistaken about my
own thoughts. If God chooses to damn me because of that, then so be it.
I wouldn't want to hang out with someone like that, frankly.

>Your choice. Just simply turn away from GOD if you don't want to 
>believe. It's even easier to turn back.

 I don't think there's anything to turn away *from*, don't you see?

Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.