HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Zodiac Constellations
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:35:57 GMT

In article <13767.2ab15a8a@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>, vancleef@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.072307.28503@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, kappa@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Glenn Capuano) writes:
[..]
>>	As I'm sure you know, many skeptics groups have rewards offered
>>for correct predictions by astrologers. In particular, Australian Skeptics
>>offers $10,000 to any astrologer who can, given someone's date and time of
>>birth, and the dates and times of ten events in their life, state what
>>those events were. Until such time as this challenge is taken up, I remain
>>unconvinced.
>
>First of all, nothing will convince a sceptic. [..]

That's wrong.  A worked out, plausible theory that explains astrology will
convince some skeptics, and statistical evidence could do that too.  If you
could provide both, you'd convince nearly all of them (i.e. the reasonable ones).
Fact is you don't have either, so you should change that sentence to "nothing
astrology can offer at the moment will convince a skeptic."

-- 
thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
Science is like democracy - it's not perfect, but it's the best thing available.
From: "Haydn Huntley" <huntley@garbo.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: daylight savings confusion  part 2
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 10:40:22 -0500

In article <1992Sep5.221257.15112@head-cfa.harvard.edu> dmm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (David Meleedy) writes:
>
>I was told that I had not given complete enough information.. so here it goes...
>
>I am a bit confused about how to figure out whether or not to add an hour
>to my birth time due to daylight savings time.  So my question is two-fold.
>
>1) How in general do you find this out?

The American Atlas is usually considered to be a good source for this
kind of information.

>2) Should I add 1 hour to my birth time?  My birth date is 21 Oct 1966?
>I was born in Boston, MA. at 8:09 pm? So do I enter 20:09 or 21:09?

The American Atlas indicates that in 1966 they changed from EDT to EST
on 10/30/1966 in Massachusetts, so you were born the next day and your
birthtime should have been written down using Eastern Standard Time,
so you should use 20:09 for your birthtime.

--Haydn



-- 
*****************************************************
*  Haydn Huntley    huntley@silver.ucs.indiana.edu  *
*****************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Did Nostradamus predict the end of communism?
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 09:33:19 GMT

>The Berlin Wall was a symbol of communism to the people of the world.
>The tearing down of the Wall then became the symbol for the end of communism.
>
>And, no, it's not testable. But that doesn't make it invalid or untrue.
>
>
>Stacey
>

Nor universal. It's one of many such images that can be used. Some use the
wall as their image; some use Castro. If the image leads the belief, it's
dead for the wall-people and alive for the Castro-people. Some people use
the image of a sliding scale without a specific opinion as to dead/alive,
and some use a grab-bag of all of the above.
A wild, wooly world, that passel of neurons is.
-ecsd
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: acarr@pell3l1.alleg.edu (Amelia Carr)
Subject: Re: Did Nostradamus predict the end of communism?
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:49:26 GMT

Concerning Michael Savastio's post and "translation" on Nostradamus.  For  
the record, I took it as a joke.  And a rather good one.  Since the mail  
seemed to be running so heavily against the original post, I thought I'd  
add a vote for humor.  Come on, folks!
Amelia Carr
From: kap@eng.cam.ac.uk (Kevin A. Price)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: A3 Colour Natal Charts
Date: 7 Sep 92 08:19:53 GMT
Organization: cam.eng

Could anyone who posted a reply over the week-end to the above Subject,
please mail me a copy as our news-disk gets very full over the weekend
so all the Articles are cancelled/expired

Cheers

Kev
e-mail kap@eng.cam.ac.uk
From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Chinese Astrology and I-Ching
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:04:40 GMT
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada
In-reply-to: deb@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu's message of 15 Sep 92 01:57:07 GMT

David Barrett raises an interesting point that should bring some fancy
footwork from the Skeptics.  I have noticed how our
(Babylonian/Chaldean) astrology, the Hindu lunar astrology and the
Tao-ist astrology all use different symbols and different methods, yet
arrive at the same symbol-meanings for the same celestial events!  There
are some differences in interpreting star-occulations, houses and
aspects (touchy subjects even among western astrologers), but the notions
of Lunations, Eclipses, planetary and solar returns remain unchanged ---
each system uses a unique set of symbols and even some uses of the same
symbol in a completely different analogical meaning, but the meaning
remains the same!

Let's suppose astrology first, as the critics charge, developed as an
unfounded scam. If this started in one location and then simply spread
by trade-route osmosis, one would expect the "rumour" effect (were
astrology not testable) and as we moved out from the 'center' we should
find the rules changed in proportion to the distance, such as they do
for card-games and folk-songs.  Instead, we find 4 very rigid and
well-defined systems which have stood for millenia without changing the
basic rules.

--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary.Murphy@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709
 Real generosity toward the future lies in giving all to the present.
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: An astrophysicist (gasp!) responds...
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:10:28 EDT

Hello,

ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes...

> Seriously, it's nice to see that credentialled & other respectable people
> are "coming out", tho Astrology may never have been a big bug-a-boo.
> (Now if we can just liberate the Astrophysicists . . .
> the shame -
> the shame -

Well, I'm an astrophysicist, although I can't really say I have 'come out'
concerning astrology.  It depends on what *kind* of astrology you are
talking about.  I see two kinds being bandied about here:

(1) 'Objective Astrology' - which says that planets, houses, aspects, and
    things DO have a REAL physical connection (whether causal, synchronous,
    or whatever) with the behavior and lives of human beings.  From this
    assumption comes Natal, Horary, Mundane, and a whole host of other
    Astrologies.

(2) 'Subjective Astrology' - which is just the use of astrological symbolism
    to say something about the psyche.  That is, one can use astrological
    symbols just as well as using Tarot cards, the I Ching, or Jungian
    analysis in 'mapping' out the personality.  All these methods contain
    (if you will permit me to use strange mathematical symbolism) a
    relatively complete 'basis set' of qualities that can be 'linearly
    combined' to form a whole person.

Most of the skeptical discussion is in the vein:  'Objective Astrology does
not work!!!'  But many people here, myself included, are only interested
in the Subjective variety.  I personally don't care whether the Jupiter-
conjunct-Sun in my natal chart means a goddamn thing, or in proving that
it does or doesn't mean anything.  But I do think it's neat to play around
with the theory.

So, to the skeptics:  Astrology in general means more than just saying that
there are 'connections' between planets and people (or, more boldly but more
incorrectly, that planets affect people).  Don't take it seriously like this
and you have a very nice esoteric symbol-set.  If the use of such things
does not jive with your worldview, however, that's okay too.
____________________________________________________________________________
   "Hold your fire -- Keep it burning bright,
    Hold the flame 'til the dream ignites --
    A spirit with a vision is a dream with a mission!"   - N. Peart

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu

PS - To Mr. VanCleef at O.S.U. - I'm not in Columbus anymore; I got my
     MS in the Astronomy department a year ago, but I still use the account
     in ongoing research with people still there.  Too bad, I would've liked
     to walk over and meet a Real Live (tm) astrologer.
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: nancy reagan
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:59:40 GMT

<RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>oh, by the way, what's this about "if it's good enough for nancy reagan,
>it's good enough for you" ? ronnie certainly isn't my idea of a dream mate.

You recall, the SF woman astrologer whose name I forget, got splashed in
the press as being a consultant to Nancy, who then determined how Ron's
day should go (indoors, or outdoors, or overseas.)
From: venugopa@constance.rutgers.edu (Sesh Venugopal)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Chart comparison
Keywords: Sun, Moon, Saturn
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:10:56 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I was thinking of identifying a small set of rules to tell whether
a marriage had a good chance of being successful. From a little
reading about synastry, I have a feeling that the following rules
regarding the Sun and the Moon might be more important than any other:

1. A's Sun is oppsite B's Moon and A's Moon is opposite B's Sun.

2. A's Sun and Venus are in B's 7th house, and more powerful if they
are conjunct B's descendant.

3. A's Moon is opposite B's Moon.

4. A's Moon is conjunct B's Moon.

Now about Saturn I'm not so sure. I've gathered that a strong
Saturnian character in the comparison could indicate durability of the
relationship if both partners deal with problems at a spiritual level.
Are Saturn's square interaspect harder to deal with than the
conjunction? Does there have to some balancing spiritual
characteristic to counter the Saturn's learn-thru-knocks influence?

--Sesh
-- 

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------   
  Seshadri Venugopal                     venugopa@paul.rutgers.edu
  Dept. of Computer Science              
  Rutgers University                     
  New Brunswick, NJ 08903
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: guna@keystone.arch.unsw.edu.au (Gunasekaran V N)
Subject: Western and Hindu Astrolody
Keywords: Astrology sun moon
Reply-To: guna@keystone.arch.unsw.edu.au
Organization: Faculty of Architecture, University of New South Wales
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:21:44 GMT

Hi,

	I was told that Western astrology is based on the planet SUN and the 
Hindu  astrology is based on the planet MOON. Is it true?.

	Can some one give more information on this?.
Cheers,
GUNA.


---
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Dave
Originator: usenet@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:04:16 GMT
Organization: AUS

This whole argument with "Dave and the Sceptics" is going nowhere fast,
not that I don't enjoy an intelligent argument. (I liked Eric's very much).
But it seems to me that 1) Dave is talking about one thing, and 2) the
astrologers here are talking something else, and never the twain shall
meet. And, more importantly, I think, is that Dave sees the universe as
either/or. Astrology has never been either/or, and the same goes for
the Universe. It would be terrific if life ran that way, but it doesn't.
And it never will, no matter how hard you try and make it.

I've been sitting here thinking about Dave's remarks on psychology and
astrology, and I think, what the fuck do you do about people like
Liz Greene, who's a Jungian analyst and an astrologer, and uses astrology
to help her patients? And she's not the only psychologist/therapist/analyst
who "believes blindly." Hell, she even has a school in London where she
teaches others to do the same. The most amusing thing of all, is (picture
this) she wouldn't even have to let a patient know how she got a grip
on his problem - how she could see the symbols and myths dominant in
his psyche by looking at a damned circle full of lines and weird squiggles.
This really tickles me. Oh, but I know, I know nothing. Or whatever these
arguments are about.

I guess I'm calling for a truce, so we can talk astrology again. At least
for a day or two. :-)

Mars is in cancer for a LONG time!!Yes!!Watch out world.

Stacey

Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Did Nostradamus predict the end of communism?
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 10:04:02 GMT

>, so if you want to test it, forget the symbolism and instead
>deal with the real objects which are being symbolized

I'll have a quart of Justice and a pound of Truth, please . . .

>for a person to accept it (or reject it) based on its accuracy, or else it
>is totally divorced from reality, and you accept it (or reject it) on faith
>solely because you think it is a cute (ugly) abstract idea.

>From listening to people here, most of them seem to think they believe in
>astrology because it has something to do with reality.

I doubt that anyone who uses astrology does so with it producing no
meaningful results for them. This means at least they believe there
to be significance in it. You can challenge whether their assessment
is 'true', but I'd like to know how you're going to define a method
to (in)validate their perception in reference to intangibles.

>Ergo, one can and should check whether this is indeed the case.

Seems to me the issue here is not whether they believe it but whether
you do. Tell you what, Mr. Skeptic, do you credence psychic phenomena?
Do you understand the mechanism through which you are attracted to or
have affection for other people? What opinion do you have about why so
many people care about whether god exists or what the nature of god or
the universe is?

Would you like to be convinced, or are you playing Devil's Advocate?
Read part two of Barbara Watters' "Horary Astrology and the Judgement
Of Events", Valhalla Press. Look at the analysis she provides to reach
the conclusions that she did. Even if she presents there every single
successful case she ever dealt with, she did some masterful things in
the real world using Astrology and a very keen mind.

Get your chart read by two or three different astrologers, and cooperate
fairly with them. Any professional astrologer should (in my opinion at
least) agree that you can tape-record the reading. Look at what they say
about you and compare it with what you know. Moreover, compare the
differences in the readings you get - not so much in whether they agree
about a specific point, but their focus and their approach.

Unless you believe that Psychology is bunk and that Psychologists do no
useful work in the world, consider that any two therapists will treat you
differently because they are human. Your experience with the astrologers
will be identical because they are doing very nearly the same thing with
you.

If you wanna argue, let's keep arguing. If you wanna learn (true or false),
YOU check it out. Direct experience, right?

cheers -
-ecsd
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Re: Did Nostradamus predict the end of communism?
Originator: usenet@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:43:55 GMT
Organization: AUS

In article <1992Sep8.154033.164472@dstos3.dsto.gov.au>, mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:
> 
> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
> 
> >>And, no, it's not testable. But that doesn't make it invalid or untrue.
> 
> >Or valid or true.
> 
> We have all considered this argument to be on the lines of
> we observe the aspects and divine an interpretation.
> 

> I personally have not found chinese
> astrology at all useful and wonder wether it is because the
> culture I come from places no meaning on their symbols.

YES. At least, that's the understanding I get from Joseph Campbell. But the same
myths (and symbols) occur over and over in all cultures, just disguised differently.

A few years ago a toddler (girl) fell down a hole in Texas. It took them almost a
week to get her out. And while the story was communicated to the rest of the world,
many people who heard it responded with concern and with a sense of participation
in it. My belief (and, yes, I know in my gut) that the reason is because it was
the myth of Demeter and Persephone in glorious, living color. I suspect that not
many people interpreted the news in that sense, but the recognition of all that
the myth symbolizes rang true and deep.

I think I could carry this a step further in comparing this to awareness of astrological
symbolism (or lack of awareness), but I'm not.
 

> I.e what I am proposing is that if most of use culturally
> associated Mars or Aries (in the god sense) with peace,
> would that change the way mars in aspect affected this
> earth?
> 
> Michael
> --
> Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
> Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
> Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
> DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
> 
> 
I think you're viewing this linearally, and I don't think that's how it all works.
Your subconscious sees wholes, not differentiations. Mars is a word for the self-
preservation instinct, for aggression, for testosterone, for assertion of the will.
There are myths that elaborate on it. The myths spring from a desire to explain
nature, to explain the psyche, to explain a vision of the transcendant. I don't
think the interpretation of a Mars aspect is derived from how we view the god, in
the sense that one has to come first.

Stacey
From: vancleef@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Zodiac Constellations
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:16:13 EDT

Glenn Capuano tries to impress us again (yawn :-O )
>	Well why do the characteristics associated with a particular sign
>come from the mythology associated with the constellation of the same
>name? If astrology has nothing to do with arbitrary stellar configurations
>why bother with constellations and signs at all? Why not just say a child
>born in December has such and such a characteristic? Might make it sound
>more credible...

Essentially that is what it does. The symbolism (I am sure you have heard
that word used alot here) adopts the meaning, not the other way around.
Of course, if you knew anything about the subject...

>	Well, I say "Prove it!"

I say, "Post your birthtime and birthplace!" so I can have some (sincere)
fun with it. I don't expect you to follow up (you can't stomach the facts?),
but we'll see...

>: First of all, nothing will convince a sceptic. Secondly an ethereal 'offer'
>: of $10K is meaningless in this (or any) forum.

>	Firstly, this is a common myth. if any astrologer could correctly
>state, even in general terms, what those ten events were, it would go a
>long way to convincing me. If he/she could do it consistently, I would be
>convinced. Unfortunately no astrologer has even taken up the challenge as
>yet!
>	Secondly, it's not an "etheral offer". I can give you people to
>call if you want to take up the offer, and it is in writing.

>Regards,
>	Glenn

Is this similar to the IHR $50,000 reward to PROVE that the holocaust
happened. Don't patronize people here. Post your birth statistics (and
please don't lie about them).

-Garrett

P.S. Here's mine BTW in case your interested:

	June 14, 1961 4:20 AM EDT
	New Brunswick, NJ, USA 74W27 40N29



Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: lips@bernina.ethz.ch (Emil Lips)
Subject: looking for some astrological data
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:54:32 GMT



Hello out there!

Im looking for some astrological data. 
First Im interested in the birthdates of well known
and important persons. (Birthdates includes time, date and place)
Second Im out for longitudes and latitudes of citys from
all over the world. 

Thanks alot for your attention and I would be glad to get some
response.

milo
Date: Friday, 11 Sep 1992 18:44:19 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: *** NEWCOMERS READ THIS: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ***

i didn't see this one in  "frequently asked questions"...

what are you people, idiots?
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Did Nostradamus predict the end of communism?
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:40:32 GMT
 <26055@dog.ee.lbl.gov> <1992Sep4.145725.25287@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> <4SEP199220020806@vxcrna.cern.ch>

casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:

>>And, no, it's not testable. But that doesn't make it invalid or untrue.

>Or valid or true.

We have all considered this argument to be on the lines of
we observe the aspects and divine an interpretation.

I often wonder if we are not more active than that.
By this I do not mean self forfilling prophesy but rather
that the mere act of many westerners believing not only in
astrology itself but much of the symbology behind it CREATES
the connections. I personally have not found chinese
astrology at all useful and wonder wether it is because the
culture I come from places no meaning on their symbols.

I.e what I am proposing is that if most of use culturally
associated Mars or Aries (in the god sense) with peace,
would that change the way mars in aspect affected this
earth?

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Request data for transpluto & etc., and formulas
Organization: 22nd Century Artisans
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:35:52 GMT

I'd like to get orbital coordinates for the nonstandard planets
and formulas for perturbations of the asteroids (all of them,
but certainly the principal 5 + 12).

The 12 are those mentioned in Demetra George's book, Psyche, Eros, etc.
thru Sappho. The 5 are of course Ceres, Pallas, Vesta, Juno; and Chiron.

I have a program which calculates the asteroids somewhat well using
planetary calculations w/o integration, but at least Amor is off a sign
in 30 years, so I need better formulas. I have the nominal orbital data
for all 3500+ of them (not in the computer yet!) from a couple Russian
journals.

I also need to know how to determine retrogradation in the spherical
system (Meeus' book.) The simplistic thing I tried to do based on
derivatives of the formulas does not work. Geometrically I need to find
the formula for the tangent to an ellipse in 3-space in spherical
coordinates - as I recall? and that will work as well.

Any ideas?
thanks -
-ecsd