HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Role-playing realism
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 16:01:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Jul21.042303.944@eskimo.celestial.com>
  <1992Jul21.170904.29698@henson.cc.wwu.edu>

In article <1992Jul21.042303.944@eskimo.celestial.com> victim@eskimo.celestial.
com (Tony Garton) writes:
>
>The reference to D&D type magick does bring up an interesting question
>since I am an avid RPG gamer.  Does any RPG exist that uses a magick
>system confined to 
>'real magick'?  My gamemaster allows one of our chars (a gypsy fortune
>teller) to use a quabbles deck for divination in the game.  I think that
>magickal rituals could be handled based on skill, time involved, work
>involved in assembling components, etc.  I think a game of this type
>might go a long way toward educating the gaming populace about real
>magick.


Response:

You know, the closest I've seen is something I was beginning to devise
for _Call of Cthulhu_.  That game is one of the few which do not have
the 'AD&D' style of physical magical phenomena (fireballs and such),
yet which have a definite use for spells and psychic ability, namely
the contact and interaction with Otherworldly Beings.

I even played in a game which invoked Aleister Crowley's name once.
Apparently the GM was slightly familiar with the Master Therion and
mentioned that the Sorceror we'd been invited to see had some of his
books upon his shelf or that he'd studied his works or something.

In any case, I've never seen a magick-system, only a magic-system.
Even Call of Cthulhu magic was geared specifically toward interaction
with the Elder Gods (with Signs and Glyphs and Summonings).  I created
yet have not yet had a chance to use an entire magick-system that
included those yet also accepted the ability to use magick for personal
development.  It even allowed one, if facing the horrible risks, to
INCREASE one's sanity points.  Novel thought, that.  ;>


Invoke me under my stars.  Love is the law, love uder will.


Yours in role-playing,


Fr. Nigris
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Kali-Ma (was: Re: The REAL art of Tarot)
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:15:07 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <8eNBRdy00VIE0RDUZj@andrew.cmu.edu> nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nanci Ann Miller) writes:
>What is Kali-Ma??

Kali-Ma, the dark mother, is *not* (as someone posted a quote from a book)
the Hindu triple goddess of creation/preservation/destruction, in any
interpretation out of the native culture I have ever seen.

She *is* the hungry earth and the other symbols mentioned.  But she is
the destruction required for life to go on.  She is the breakdown of
order necessary for evolution, or revolution.

There are other goddess images for the aspects of creation and preservation.

Geez, where's Tagi, anyway...;)

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: rosicrucians
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:40:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.043329.3636@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> locklin@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Scott Locklin) writes:
>
>A good source for rosicru's and other such groups is Akhron Dahrul's "History
>of Secret Societies"...
>R.A. Wilson uses it in his "Illuminatus" books...
>
>-Scott

A more detailed (and possibly more accurate) source for Rosicrucian
history is Christopher Macintosh's _The Rosicrucians_, which I think
is still in print.  A little out of date, but still worth reading, is
A.E. Waite's _Real History of the Rosicrucians_ (I'm not absolutely
sure of the wording of the title).

Crowley, by the way, recommended the latter as "a good vulgar piece of
journalism on the subject..."

Finally, there's always Frances Yates' _The Rosicrucian Enlightenment_,
a historical piece which gives a good idea of the context behind the
original R.C. manifestoes; both of the manifestoes themselves are given
in an appendix.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Goal of Magick
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:39:40 +0000

(David Tomlinson) writes..

(And what happened to your login ID David: No way we can flood YOUR
mailbox with junk mail :-)


>This is my first post to this group so feel free to flame away.

You listening josh?

>I have been working on (in my head) an idea about the
>goals of metaphysical techniques around the world, and it
>would seem to me that the first goal of all 'Magickal
>Systems' is to stop the internal dialogue ie. your thoughts,

I would pretty much agree with that: but there is a whole slew of
preparation you need to do before you can (unless you launch straight
in with psychedelics that is).

The chief obstacle you have to overcome is your own sense of reality:
That the world is a real solid material place according to the Gospel
of Science.

To do this you either need to affirm - through ritual or whatever -
some other reality (Qaballistic, shamanic etc) and use the impact of
that to offset 'normality' or you need to detach yourself from
normality (i.e. meditational techniques).

You also need in some way to bolster the personality (build a magical
personality) so that (Castaneda: When the warrior comes face to face
with the Devil himself, he doesn't crap in his pants). That is
especially true if you are using the magicakal and shamanic
techniques rather than meditational, because you are deliberately
seeking non-ordinary experience in order to disarrange your normal
view. Meditational techniques are a lot gentler - and slower I think.

>and the second is to obtain control over your dreams.

I don't think so: It depends what you want to do with yourself, your
life, your magick.

Isn't it somestimes nicer to wander through the 100 worlds as a fox
spirit, enjoying the jewelled gardens and the (forgotten the rest:
see book of Golden Flower) than to sit there invoking demons and
thereby increasing your mangement problems? :-)

If you want to make things happen, I suppose that this is a good
discipline. Personally I would rather understand what is going on
than tamper with it.

>Is this making it too simple?

No, I don't think it is. Magickal consciousness is like walking a
tightrope. Conceptually it's a doddle. Doing it safely and for long
periods may take practice for the rest of your life.

Remember its a lot easier to write books, to talk loudly and to
pontificate on Usenet than ever it is to modify ones internal
dialogue :-)




>Cheers

>David Tomlinson



From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:30:52 GMT
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

>
>>On a semi-related note, I have a question about the version of the Middle
>>Pillar ritual B.A. posted.  Does anyone know where the god-name for Daath
>>came from?  It's not supposed to have any correspondences as such, right?
>
>I was wondering about this myself...does anyone know?  Oh, and the color too...
>it is the same as Yesod in this exercise.  That seems strange to me.
>
The name `YHYH Elohim' is often sometimes given as the god(ess) name of Binah,
but more often shortened to `Elohim'.

As for correspondences between Daath & Yesod, you need to examine the
geometrical symmetry of the Tree as it is normally drawn.

One of the most interesting extensions to Kabbalah based on this symmetry
is called `the extended Tree'. The extended Tree is constructed by taking
four complete Trees (on acetate foil if you can manage it) and overlaying
them to create a composite Tree through the four worlds of emanation, creation,
formation, and action. When you do this you will see that each sephira
in the composite Tree takes on different aspects depending on the world 
it is in. Thus a sephira can be Malkuth of Briah, Tiphereth of
Yetzirah, and Kether of Assiah. In the same way, Binah & Hod, Chokmah & 
Netzach, and Yesod & Daath are duals in different worlds.

Is there an experiential basis for using the extended Tree? IMHO, yes, most
definitely. The only place where I have seen this stuff in print is in
several of Halevi's books e.g. `Adam & the Kabbalistic Tree'.

Colin
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 20:46:55 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <-#gmq_j@lynx.unm.edu>

9207.22 e.v.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


A question was posted concerning the meaning of a crow pecking at
a nearby screen on their home.  


Since nobody else is taking this seriously, I'll be happy to oblige.
Some of us see the world around us as a continual communication to
our minds.  The study of symbology (whatever system) is therefore
of benefit for interpretation.  I suggest that if anyone is serious
about this type of thing that you either create a system and use it
or research some of the known systems.  There are even compendium
'encyclopedias' of symbols which are quite handy.  I happen to have
one here in the library and am referencing 'crow' in response.

This is from _An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols_,
by J.C.Cooper, page 47:

"Crow  Alchemic: The nigredo, the first stage of matter in the Great
Work.  Amerindian: In some tribes the crow takes on the functions of
the demiurge.  Chinese: When black it is evil; malice; bad luck and
business; if portrayed as red or gold it is the sun, also filial
piety.  There is, however, some question whether it should be the
cock, rather than the crow, which is connected with the sun since
stylized creatures can be confused.  The three-legged crow, or
cock, lives in the sun.  The black crow paired with the white heron
symbolizes the yin-yang.  Christian: Solitude.  As plucking out
the eyes it is the Devil blinding sinners.  Egyptian: A pair of
crows denote conjugal felicity.  Greek: Sacred to Apollo and
Athene.  Hebrew: Carrion; a corpse.  Hindu: An attribute of
Varuna.  Japanese: Ill-omen; misfortune, but also, in Shintoism,
holy crows, as messengers of deities, are associated with
temples.  The crow is sometimes depicted in front of the sun."


What must be emphasized is that in symbol-interpretation, nothing
is 'wrong'.  Each subjective reading is correct for that person.
If one's symbol-system varies from cultural norms, all this says
is that one is in a different state of consciousness with a different
orientation and language than the culture to which she is comparing
hirself.


My own associations with crows are as follows:

Death, aloneness, change;  The scavenger, resolution after conflict;
Cleverness, swiftness; Crow is trickster and the manifestation of those
aspects of deity which are dark, liberating, and wise.

When I've seen crows it has been a time of remembering death or releasing
some aspect of life.  A few times their calls have been reminders that
all life is a comic tragedy which arises in mortality.

If my memory is not faulty, I think that a celtic goddess is also associated
with crow (Morrigan?  Macha?  I'm not sure).  Usually the battle-goddesses
are linked with the crow in some way.  This displays their scavenger-aspect.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: RE: BLACK CROWS
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:05:00 +0000

blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes...



 >       I could use the help of the internet for this one:

 >       OK, i was on the phone with this female (who has a serious
 >       boyfriend) and this crow flew up to my window and started
 >       pecking on the screen- DOES THIS MEAN I'M GONNA GET LUCKY????

  >      is it a sign or something?

If it is yould better watch out: Crows are associated with death.
They are the outward manifestation of the Morrigan.

Perhaps the serious boyfriend is gunning for you and shes just
setting you up? :-)
From: andra@cs.widener.edu (Robert Andracsek)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: INTERESTED
Date: 29 Jul 1992 16:30:27 -0400
Organization: Widener University CS Department, Chester PA
NNTP-Posting-Host: maggie.cs.widener.edu

Ok, we've got NY and Boston covered, anything in the Philadelphia
area?

Thanx...
-- 
|R. Andracsek  |  andra@cs.widener.edu  |  Voice (215)447-0412  
|    "Bambi's got a condom and
|       Thumper is on drugs!" - The Dome, Widener School Paper
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for Newbie)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:54:50 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Jul26.054144.603@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.164422.14522@burrhus.harvard.edu>, canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>Hello Carl. Seems like they'll let any riff-raff post to this group;-)

	That would explain how you got here ;)

>*If* they were going
>to use a divination system based on an alphabet, then they would have used 
>runes, it's just that there's no evidence that the did. They did have other
>forms of divination however, for which there *is* evidence.

	Would this be the Tacitus passage about the slivers of wood that
you refered to?  Or some kind of seidhr alluded to elsewhere?  Or what?
I'm no real expert on Nordic divination.
 
>> >languages when possible. I can assure you that runic divination is a 
>> >MODERN invention. There is no evidence that it was ever practiced by the 
>> >early germanics. Tacitus mentions several means of divination including
>> >the randomn selection of slivers of wood marked with 'signs', but there 
>> >is no evidence that these were runic and other than this there is NO 
>> >OTHER EVIDENCE FOR RUNIC DIVINATION WHATSOEVER from the middle ages.
>> >It's a con-job.
>> 
>> 	Tacitus is the only early source for divination information and it
>> is true that there is no real evidence for runic divination in the middle
>> ages.  While we'll never be able to prove anything, I don't think it's
>> unreasonable to suspect it might have existed.  After all, there are saga
>> references to other forms of runic magic (I can think of some from Egils
>> saga), and with divinatory magic such a common thing, I'd be mildly
>> surprised if runes weren't used in some ways for divinatory purposes
>> (though I don't claim to know what they were).
>
>Have to disagree with you there Carl, I think it *is* unreasonable to suspect
>it existed in the absence of any evidence for it. It's an attractive idea, but
>that's not really good enough.

	No, I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on it or anything, but
even the Tacitus passage is pretty suggestive.  If contemporary use of
runes isn't a reflection of older practice, then it's a pretty good cop.
	I'm not ready to swear runes were used as such and I'm not going to
base any research on it, but if some kind of evidence did turn up I
wouldn't be that surprised.

	I think it's kind of interesting how much attention runic
divination gets these days, when really there's less info on it than other
kinds of runic (or even non-runic) Nordic magic.
 
Regards,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:01:15 GMT

gryphon@openage.openage.com (The Golden Gryphon) writes:
: 
: I hear a lot of people in the pagan/mystic community bemoaning the fact that
: everyone hates them, and how misunderstood they are.  Well look at the kinds
: of replies you are giving out.  People don't have to accept you for what you
: are!  People can easily reject you and call you murderers and rapists.  If you
: want to be understood you need to educate the mind blind masses.
: 
: I'm expecting lots of FUN (NOT!) messages from people.  I will not get into
: a flame war.  I will discuss this seriously.  I'll even have a heated
: discussion with you if you disagree.  Public or Private.  Email or News.

One of the greatest problems we have in the world, is that people take things
too seriously. The described event, if indeed an omen, is so without context
that it could mean almost anything. Now, if the person had been doing a
scrying (or other divination) and this had occurred, then it MIGHT have some
analyzable significance related to the divination.

Whether messages are fun or not depends on how you look at everything. If
you are willing to consider all postings for what they are - the person
opinions (sometimes not too serious) of the person making the posting, then
there is nothing to get upset about. 

Bill
From: shaman@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (David Melton)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Night Breed
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:09:14 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

You may want to start by looking at Lovecraft.  The feeling I got from Night
Breed was very similar to his works.  I'm not sure there's enough "meat" to
Lovecraft from which to develop an entire cosmology, but it may give you a
starting point.


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: antipsychotic drugs
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:08:20 GMT

In article <joshua.712386228@coombs> joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller) writes:

>you'll be happy to know that modern antipsychotic drugs can relieve these
>symptoms without the harmful side effects that made the phenothiazines so
>uncomfortable to use.

Bullshit. Name two.

I've spent too much time weaning friends off of stuff prescribed by their
psychopharmacologist and into sanity to ever trust one again. None of them
ever seemed to have clue one about the use of psychoactives. Worse, because
mental patients have no rights in this country (especially in the case of
one very good but very fucked friend who was under eighteen), drugs are
given experimentally alone and in combinations, not with any regard to the
patients needs, desires, or will. And despite any 'modern improvments',
every one, without fail, mixed 'em with good ol' lithium or thorazine
('lithium lite').

Since this has nothing to do with magic, and I've started to rant, I'll just
add that I don't mean this as an indictment of psyactive drugs for magical
use; but I'd still recommend sticking with the relatively (physically) gentle
and well-understood one like LSD, psylosibin, or mescaline. (still haven't
tried peyote, can't give you any references)

-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu     AT&T: 508 453 1753  : USnail : Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --          :          85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"            :          Lowell, MA 01854
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: n8743494@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (The Stranger)
Subject: Re: Odd Fellows
Organization: Western Washington University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:37:46 GMT

In article <oeP=DWy00iUx84FWAI@andrew.cmu.edu> Shawn Clayton Knight <sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I've heard of them, there's a chapter near my hometown which is in turn
>near Pittsburgh ...
>
>They seem to be a fraternal group, somewhat along the lines of Masonry,
>though nowhere nearly as elaborate or esoteric.  If they're any more
>esoteric than many fraternal organizations rich with symbolism, they
>hide it well.
>
>-shawn
>"OddFellows Local 151 behind the firehouse ..."
>-"Oddfellows Local 151", from REM's _Document_ album
>

There is a chapter in Bellingham here to (north of Seattle).  Who are these
guys?  The building they are in is old and rundown on the outside and the 
rooms inside (looking through the window) are painted in a swerly pattern
of green and yellow, at least the one I saw.
From: cipher@lacerta.unm.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Summary: Not.
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:58:40 GMT
Organization: Universal Life Church of Secular Humorism

In article <84093@netnews.upenn.edu> blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes:
>
>
>        I could use the help of the internet for this one:
>
>        OK, i was on the phone with this female (who has a serious
>boyfriend) and this crow flew up to my window and started
>pecking on the screen-  DOES THIS MEAN I'M GONNA GET LUCKY????
>
>        is it a sign or something?
>
>blewis@eniac.seas

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but it definitely means that
you are going to have your pecker (you see, the "pecking" of the crow,
traditionally a bad omen) removed with a french-fry maker, probably by
the "female's" boyfriend.

                          With best wishes for your recovery,

                          --Rev. J. B. Bell
-- 
"Before you shoot off your mouth, try placing your foot in it.  At least
that way, you'll know _why_ you shot yourself in the foot."

           --Lefty (lefty@apple.com)
Organization: Senior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:52:58 -0400 
From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Undulation


A Discussion on the Law of Undulation
-------------------------------------

        Humans are amphibians - half spirit and half animal.  As
spirits they belong to the eternal world, but as animals they inhibit
time.  This means that while their spirit can be directed to an
eternal object, their bodies, passions, and imaginations are in
continual change, for to be in time means to change.  Their nearest
approach to constancy, therefore, is undulation - the repeated
return to a level from which they repeatedly fall back, a series
of troughs and peaks.  As long as man lives on earth, periods of
emotional and bodily richness and liveliness will alternate with
periods of numbness and poverty.

- C.S. Lewis, _The Screwtape Letters_


My own thoughts on undulation:
The only constant in the universe is change.  By looking at nature
one can see that this change exists in all things, not just humans.
But the change is like a wave made up of little waves.  And each little
wave is made up of those that are smaller yet, and so on.  In this
change, chaos, there is constancy, law.  C.S. Lewis describes undulation
in humans but the undulation in our lives is only the reflection of
the undulation of the universe around us.

Nanci
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:21:21 -0400 
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Deryni magic (was Re: Ritual weapons)

My belief that the over-structure of ordered magic is chaos, and the
over-structure of chaos magic is order.

It's a scale thing. I've often seen that if one is focused on, the
other is expressed at another level.

Any other observations on this?

-Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]
<B1 c+ f+ w g+ k+ s+ r- e+ p>
Newsgroups: alt.magick