From: cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith))
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Catholics & Faith and Works
Date: 23 Jul 92 07:05:34 GMT

In article <Jul.20.02.22.23.1992.9268@dumas.rutgers.edu>, mchung@ee.tamu.edu (Maranatha Chung) writes:
> The verses in James talked about the relationship between work and
> faith. But I think the question is the relationship between salvation
> and work/faith in Catholicism. Does faith alone leads to salvation
> or does faith leads to salvation which requires the evidence of work?

          Faith leads to salvation which requires the evidence of work.
          Yes.

 For James, faith which does not declare itself in works cannot save.

My Hermeneia Commentary on James has this to say:

	And just as in the word "faith," so also in the term "save"
	one must forget all theological determinations and leave aside
	all the various answers to the questions "From what?" and
	"By what means?"  That Christian faith saves is the common
	Christian conviction, and since early Christianity is an
	eschatalogical religion this conviction relates chiefly to
	the final judgment.  Hence, this is the obvious meaning here 
	also, since "is able" (dunatai) points to the future rather
	than to the past:  Is faith able to save him, once that time
	comes?  The thought is certainly that faith alone is _not_ able 
	to save him.  Yet this does not say that works alone can save
	him.  The verse speaks only of works which those who have
	faith perform, for "andyet he does not have works" (erga de
	me eke) is said explicitly of the Christian who is reproved
	here.  Therefore, the author considers it to be only natural
	that a man who professes (Christian) faith also "has works."

Later, the commentator notes that if "Christianity is to be nothing more 
than what the demons also have, this faith is in bad shape."  The author 
of James basically wants to show how basically unChristian faith without
works really is.  Only in this way, by showing our works from our faith,
can our faith be manifested at all.

 About the shuddering demons:  If you believe that God is one, then you 
share the faith of demons.  Since it was common knowledge that demons 
would be destroyed at the End, it follows that this faith cannot save.

 In 21-23, Martin Dibelius (the commentator) notes the "juxtaposition of 
ergwn and arge" and calls it "an artistic device" saying "Without 
_works_ faith does not _work_."

 By Abraham, we get into justification.  "The faith of Abraham assisted 
his works and his works perfected his faith."  Only through works does 
faith really become faith.

 The phrase "it was reckoned to him as righteousness" is a reference to 
justification by works (by the offering of Isaac).  This is supported by 
the common Jewish interpretation of Gen 15:6.  Dibelius:  "This agreemtn 
between the synagogue exegesis and the intepretation to which we are 
plainly forced by our text provides the conclusive evidence for the 
dependence of this section in Jas upon Jewish Biblical interpretation.  
This evidence is further corroborated by the title 'friend of God' which 
is used by our author as well as by the Jews.  This interpretation of 
'it was reckoned' seems to have originated from the fact that Jewish 
exegetes quite universaly saw the main evidence of Abraham's faith in 
his offering up of his son, i.e., they were tying together Gen 15 with 
Gen 22 in their interpretation; cf. 1 Macc 2:52.  Jas did not follow the 
exact wording found in the 1 Maccabees passage:  'righteousness was 
reckoned to him.'  Neverhtheless, he still reads a reference to works in 
the wording 'it was reckoned as righteousness' (elogisthe eis 
dikaiosunen).  For in the word 'righteousness' (dikaiosune) he, like the 
Jews, understood an actual righteousness based upon works, and in the 
expression 'it was reckoned' (elogisthe) he, like the Book of Jubilees, 
thought of a kind of heavenly book-keeping.  Thus he was able to 
associate the clauses within the Gen 15:6 passage with the two factors, 
faith and works:  'he believed' (episteusen) -- therefore, _faith_ 
(referring not only to the point of time in Gen 15:6, but to the whole 
of Abraham's life); 'it was reckoned' (elogisthe), i.e., counted or 
entered in the books as 'righteousness' -- therefore, works."

 He then goes on to contrast Paul's thinking on the matter who 
interpreted Gen 15:6 as a reference to a faith accepted by grace in lieu 
of the righteousness which is lacking.  "But Judaism understood faith to 
be a work or a pattern of living which included works."

 I think this last statement clearly shows the classical difference 
between Catholic and Protestant thinking:  We view faith as a pattern of 
living that includes good works whereas Protestants (I think) tend to 
view faith as a matter of saying, "On this day I did not believe in 
Jesus and I was damned, then on the next day I accepted Jesus as my Lord 
and Saviour and on that day I was saved."  I've never really understood 
the concept of "zap salvation" but I recognize that it exists.  
Catholics tend to look at salvation as a continuous lifelong process and 
not as something that just happens to you one day.

 At any rate, the only notion that James attacks outright is the appeal 
to faith alone, excluding works.

> Maranatha
> mchung@ee.tamu.edu

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com

To the outcaste on her knees
You are the God who really sees