From: dsm@prism.gatech.EDU (Danny McGurl)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: On the alleged cheating in the UB game....
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:01:29 GMT
Organization: Revelstone High Command

In article <1992Apr6.220612.6797@acsu.buffalo.edu> keith@acsu.buffalo.edu (Hawk) writes:

Disclaimer:  I didn't play in this game, and I really don't know who did. And
despite what I say below, I'm not saying that anyone cheated!

>2) After the Crybaby Whine and Snivel Over Victory Conditions, the
>	deity (Rodina) quit. He left the running of the game to me.
>	I suppose that left me with two choices, either stop the game,
>	or run the game by myself. 

Point of order please.  There is at least one other choice which is to 
get someone to play your country so that you can diety without playing...

>Now, it's not like I could really tell the world what I was doing. 


Why not?  Mayhap they would have believed you.  You could at least say that
you were taking over as diety until a replacement diety or player (for you)
was available.

>3) Dreadlands would have been done in the next few days anyway.
>	Yes,  sorry to say, Mr Dread, but there was a co-ordinated effort
>	to smoke you. Ask Mith, Cylamaron, Icehouse, or Commonwealth.

The best layer plans... How exactly do you know 17 countries weren't going
to attack you before this attack came on?  With that many people, they'd
likely succeed, but there are no certainties in empire.

>	The fact that Dread and the Elf were bungling the management and the
>	running of their country to a point where they were out of contention
>	and THEN CHOSE TO BLAME THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS IN THIS GAME ON *ME*

And how do you know they were bungling?  Did you look?  If not, it was
said earlier that they were pretty high on the charts.  With that info
how do you know they were bungling?  They could have (possibly) taken you
out three minutes after the game went down...

>	I find HIGHLY offensive. In the context of the game, I *TOLD* dread 
>	that if he, or anyone else in the game, could prove that *I* had 
>	cheated

Proof of this nature is very hard to come by if you know what you (as a 
potential cheating diety --not that you did) are doing.

>	Then he told me he was going to quit. So what am I supposed to do?
>	Sit and watch Mith demolish everyone else in the game?

Wouldn't be the first time that Mith demolished everyone else :) :) :)

>	If I was cheating how come my tech was not number one? 

	Because someone who cheated wouldn't admit to it later now would he?
 	(Not that I'm saying you did. I'm playing the devil's advocate)

>	I figured that I could trust myself NOT to do anything to alter the 
	outcome of the game,

	You, of course, could trust yourself.  The problem is that the people
	in the game had no way to know to trust you... In general I trust
	everyone at first, but for some things I only trust people I know
	or that people I trust tell me to trust.

>	WHAT is the POINT of cheating? Especially in Empire. Where's the thrill
>	of winning with a super country? 

	You obviously don't know some of the egoes in this game.  I've seen
	cheating in several games, but I have no idea why cheaters cheat...


>	has.) in the 0,0 sector, which was an lcm factory owned by h2s.
>	As it turns out, there were a bunch of non existant ships
>	there..

Ah, so you know what's at the 0,0?  Maybe you looked after the game was
down.  How do the players know?


The point of all this is that unless you know someone, you may not be 
inclined to trust them.  

As a side note, if you every plan to diety, expect the potential for a 
lot of shit from players.  As Tom Bunch (aka Dwip from the Washington '89
game) about it.  You have to be prepared to take it and let it slide...

As a further point, changes (whether in code or victory conditions) after
a games start, are very bad news...


-- 
Danny McGurl                        "No, no Pixel!  Beer is not for baby cats."
Office of Information Technology        --Richard Ames,
dsm@prism.gatech.edu 		        __The Cat Who Walks Through Walls__