HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!turing!TSATSOUL
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:51:52 GMT

Original-Sender: kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!turing!TSATSOUL

The dualistic thinking apparent from discussions of "choosing sides" and
"war" is itself a very Judeo-Christian, and thus Euro-centric attitude.
Many people seem perfectly capable of combining both research methods which
originated from such a worldview, and still retaining a healthy respect for
other models of interpreting the world and our place in it. While our
cultural socialization may cause us to use one or the other as primary
reference guide for cognition, behavior, and action, our self-selected
education can very well broaden our perception to include the famous "other".

I agree that the political right and Christian, as well as Muslim
fanatics, would gladly do away with any kind of information which makes
their worldview just one among many. But instead of attacking them and
other fanatics as the nearsided bigots they are, we should open up
avenues of communication, specifically avenues which allow an exchange
of opinions which would not be perceived as threatening to anybody
involved.

For those members of this list who are in or near Lawrence, KS, and
maybe involved with the University of Kansas in some way, the KU Coalition
against racism and discrimination is putting on a panel discussion
on Multiculturalism on Sep. 22, from 7 to 8:30pm, in the Big Eight Room
of the Kansas Union. Although we will discuss mainly the problem of
creating and maintaining a multicultural environment at KU, one of the
-hopefully- resulting dialog group could study and discuss the lack
of research/teaching of "alternative" (for lack of better word) worldviews.

Sorry for the long posting

Barbara Tsatsoulis
Dept. of Anthropology
University of Kansas
Lawrence, KS 66045
(913)864-4103
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!tamvm1.tamu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!souther (Art Souther)
Subject: Sleeping Dreams
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:30:03 GMT

Original-Sender: cs.utexas.edu!souther (Art Souther)

The Power Of Two Hands Embraced

Oh! have I opened the door on you?
Sorry, your eyes are weak -
Years in this maze of words
Where thoughts have left the only traces.

You talk at me, though I am defenseless;
You condemn my help, spitting on my offerings;
You disparage me as a pawn of deception, intrigue and control.
How long must this bloodletting go on?

Though you doubt the message I bear,
I ask you to take my words on faith,
To recognize me for what I am:
The power of two hands embraced.

There is no time in this troubled world
To be certain of the True Believers;
To argue about pedigree
As the world spins out of control.

Though you may come from different lands,
Your dreams, I claim, sleep side by side.
If you wish to wake them I will show you how,
With a little giving and a little trust.

souther@cs.utexas.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: babs@jfwhome.FUNHOUSE.COM (Babs Woods)
Subject: Mooney book finally reprinted!
Organization: Our Lady of Perpetual Mirth (Pacifica)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:26:03 GMT


	A few months ago I asked if anyone knew where I could find
"History, myths, and sacred formulas of the Cherokees", by James Mooney. 
At the time it was out of print and I despaired of finding it again.

	Currently, Cherokee Publications is carrying a newly reprinted 
edition that has a biographical section added about Mooney.  They sent 
me a card that has an offer:

	"Order by Oct. 1, 1992 & enclose this card for above price"
[$17.55, which includes shipping]

The book is listed as #7  New edition ($15.95 + 1.60).  

	Cherokee Publications
	P.O. Box 430
	Cherokee, North Carolina, 28719

I'm about to order a copy for myself, but if anyone else is interested,
write to them.  For those who haven't seen their catalogue, it's 
just full of great books on Indian life (and some new-age "Indian"
stuff, too).  

				-babs

-- 

"Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair."
	- hadley@ics.uci.edu (Ted Hadley)
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: The Evolution of Religion
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:59:54 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

My thanks to the NatChat moderators for passing on this
post from alt. native. However it appears that one
paragraph got snipped out somehow in the relay:


*From an evolutionary point of view, it is not hard to see how


Should be:

*From an evolutionary point of view, it is not hard to see how
*adaptations for limitations of birth rate and of intelligent
*utilization of the environment could develop: groups which did
*not develop them had a greater chance of degrading their
*territories and becoming extinct as a result. Moreover, the human
*knack for symbolic culture means that if one group develops such
*successful cultural traits of lower-than-possible reproductive
*rates and lower-than-possible rates of exploiting the
*environment, other groups might pick it up: ideas travel. In time
*the successful ideas -- the ideas that lead to survival -- are
*the ones that remain. The hunter-gatherer groups that liked to
*devour everything in sight and reproduce as fast as possible
*crashed, and their views did not survive.


[This "group selection" idea for the origin of nature-respecting
religion is fairly central to my argument.]

------------
Alan McGowen

[Apologies for missing this.  The paragraph was not in the article
relayed to me.  Note that it begins with the word 'From', which is
a keyword for many mail systems; it seems possible that this caused it
to be truncated.  It's best to avoid starting lines in email messages
with 'From' if possible.--mkk]

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: Truth is Academic?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:43:49 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

I share what appears to be Peshewegunzh's belief in an objective truth,
independent of human will, and his skepticism towards doctrines that tend
to make "Man the Measure" of all things. However, our differences seem to
arise out of different applications of that very belief and skepticism.
He seems to believe that there is a prior standard of spiritual truth,
which is known to him, but which is apparantly not open to investigation,
discovery, or revision of any kind. He also seems to think that cosmology
must bow to this prior spiritual truth.

Now that seems to me to be exactly the view that "Man is the Measure" of
all things. It seems to me that if humans are not the measure of spiritual
truth any more than of cosmological truth, we have to be prepared for the
possibility that we are not the spiritual focus of the universe any more
than we are its geometric center. That may feel very awkward. But it may be
the truth.

> That's one reason
> western science has gotten us into such terrible trouble: there was not
> simply a seeking for and understanding of truth, but the inheritance of the
> mantle of medieval alchemy, which seeks to cheat.

I believe Peshewegunzh is confusing science with engineering here. That is
an extremely common thing to do, especially among engineers. But there is
a major difference between them. Engineering seeks to alter the world --
to replace nature with artifacts. Science seeks to understand the world.
Most of what passes for "science" in the public view is really engineering.
And most of the political and economic support for "science" is really
support for what is primarily engineering.


------------
Alan McGowen

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Forward From Kris Butler (azklb@asuvm.inre.asu.edu) on the Mt. Graham Issue
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:56:37 GMT

     I sent a letter to U of A President Manuel Pacheco yesterday,
showing him the methodiolgical flaws in Polzer's Affidavit of April
6th.
     Also in the paper yesterday was an article about a letter from
the associate curator for ethnohistory at Arizona State Museum, Tom
Sheridan.  Sheridan's letter to Polzer refutted his affidavit point
for point and gently sugggested that he revise his affidavit.  What
really impressed me about the letter (someone sent me a copy of it
which I received yesterday.
     It's at home or I would quote from it) is the calm, clear,
professional tone.
     This is in sharp contrast to Polzer's statements, which are
angry, illogical and unprofessional.  I think it would greatly
benefit the Museum if Polzer stepped down and Sheridan took his
place as curator.
     Thanks for putting the things on the net for me.

     Kris Butler   azklb@sauacad

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 20:52:46 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

> Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
>
> If all that you care about is undermining and weakening the US govt by
> attacking the public sector in all its forms, no matter what might replace
> it, then by all means side with that crowd as Peshe does. But be aware that
> you are doing so, that you are being used for their purposes.
>
> -----------
> Alan McGowen
>
> [I am not at all sure that this is a valid summary of Peshewegunzh's
> views.  In any case, I see battle lines being drawn in these postings,
> and I would really prefer a discussion to a war.  Please--and this is
> directed to posters in general, not just to Alan--try to observe the
> boundary between criticizing views and attacking persons, and if the
> latter seems absolutely necessary, confine it to email.
>
> I have a nasty suspicion that in the polarization of views in recent
> messages both sides are misunderstanding each other, and common ground
> we all share is being overlooked in the desire to draw neat dividing
> lines.
>
> --mkk]

Let me rephrase the last paragraph slightly -- change one sentence to
"side with that crowd as Peshe appears to do." I was not so much
"summarizing Peshewegunzh's views" here as the views of certain
near-anarchist libertarian factions.

Please note that I am *not* saying that Indians should not side with
the right if they genuinely believe it to be in their true best
interests to do so. What I am saying is let's not have any
disingenuousities about how right-wing doctrines really aren't right-wing
doctrines if Indians uphold them. They continue to serve the interests
of a particular European-american faction, commonly identified as the
(rather far) right. I do not myself believe that these doctrines really
do serve the long-term interests of Indians (or of anyone, except possibly
some very wealthy individuals), as I indicated with the question about
"who would be able to afford the most guns". But I don't dispute the right
of Indians to adopt such views.
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: NatChat Discussion List <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!genetics.washington.edu!native>
Subject: Moderators' message
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 04:51:12 GMT

Original-Sender: NatChat Discussion List <genetics.washington.edu!native>

The NatChat mailing list has recently become involved in a discussion of
religious issues.  As moderators, we've been faced with a difficult
decision:  limit this discussion, and lose the chance that it will
provide valuable insight into issues of Native spirituality,
environmental preservation, relationship between Western and Native
cultures, etc--or permit it to continue unchecked, and risk filling
up the mailing list with passionate attacks and defenses of religious
views, many of which are only very tangentially related to Native issues.

After considerable discussion, we've decided it's better to err on the
side of accepting, rather than rejecting, postings of this kind.  We
would like to ask all posters to bear a few things in mind:

a)  Discuss the others posters' views; don't attack them personally.
b)  Remember that NatChat exists for discussion of Native issues, and
try to keep your posts relevant.
c)  Use private email rather than the mailing list for comments addressed
to a single individual and not of general interest.  (It is a good idea
to put your email address on all postings, as the ones generated by mail
software are not always reliable.)

Our apologies to those whose postings were delayed while we were trying
to come to a decision.

Sincerely,

Mary Kuhner and Jon Yamato
NatChat co-moderators
mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: gnosys.svle.ma.us!gst (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: apology for lost article text [was Re: The Evolution of Religion]
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 00:20:24 GMT

Original-Sender: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)

Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm> writes:

> My thanks to the NatChat moderators for passing on this
> post from alt. native. However it appears that one
> paragraph got snipped out somehow in the relay...

Mary Kuhner, one of the list moderators replies:

> [Apologies for missing this.  The paragraph was not in the article
> relayed to me.  Note that it begins with the word 'From', which is
> a keyword for many mail systems; it seems possible that this caused it
> to be truncated.  It's best to avoid starting lines in email messages
> with 'From' if possible.--mkk]

The fault is entirely mine, or should I say that of my relay software, that
is.  I don't believe the problem had anything to do with the line immediately
preceding the first deleted line starting with "From."  Rather it was caused
by a software bug in a program routine that prepares articles received from
one of the mailing list addresses ("nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us" or "NATCHAT@
TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU") or from the alt.native mailing list for automatic relay to
the list moderators.  Under certain as yet unknown conditions, text may be
deleted from messages prior to relay.  I will install a temporary modification
to the module which is performing this function to eliminate the kind of pro-
cessing which I believe to be responsible for the problem until such time as I
determine its cause and can install a fix.

The user's mail or news software is designed to prefix a ">" character
before any left-justified "From " string it finds in message text, just
to avoid confusing it with the start of a new message, so by the time an
article arrives here, the "From " string will already have been transformed
to ">From " as it was in this case.  Therefore, you need not worry about
starting a line with the word "From," which would seem to be an unreasonable
constraint.

Apologies to Alan and to list readers for the confusion and inconvenience.

--Gary

--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Marianne Dugan <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!OREGON.UOREGON.EDU!MDUGAN>
Subject: 2 cents worth
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 04:52:03 GMT

Original-Sender: Marianne Dugan <OREGON.UOREGON.EDU!MDUGAN>

I will try to keep my "2 cents" short.

If I remember correctly, this whole discussion started with
Peshewegunzh postulating that (most?) environmentalism is
inimical to nativism.  (To reduce it to its bare bones and
thereby risk angering someone, somewhere, I realize.)

That is interesting to me, personally, because since I was very
young (that is, as far back as I can remember), I realized the
culture I was living in was really screwed up, and realized also,
more and more, that I wanted to learn how to think and act "like
a native."  Scoff if you must, but it seemed (and still seems)
the only rational and "spiritual" alternative to thinking and
acting "like a visitor."  I am not a visitor to this planet nor
this nation, and I despise the actions of those who came before
me to this land and acted like visitors -- like conquerors and
tourists with no respect for the land nor the people nor the
planet itself.

Thus, I have been drawn naturally into an "environmental" point
of view, because the whole point (to me) of being an "
"environmentalist" is to act like a native on the planet and in
your biosphere.  I realize that "environmentalism" means a
million things to a million people, but I think you know what I'm
saying.  It is really an inevitable course for _me_ to take in
trying _not_ to operate under the same tired old Western status
quo.  I am intrigued and concerned that native voices are saying
that _some_ forms of environmentalism are antithetical to native
culture and belief, and I want to hear more.  But I refuse to let
that scare me away from thinking and acting like "an
environmentalist."

Thanks for listening.  I hope this helps to remedy what the
moderators apparently see as a dangerous polarization of
views.  I must note, finally, that I think that the polarization
is (almost by definition) not the product only of those who dare
to question Peshewegunzh's opinions, but also of the tone of
Peshewegunzh's statements themselves.  I will say no more for
fear of being perceived as making personal attacks.  I don't mean
to do so, and I hope this is taken in the reaching-out (as
opposed to pushing-away) spirit in which it is given.

I also hope Peshewegunzh is ok, if he does live in the hurricane
area.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Marianne Dugan  mdugan@oregon.uoregon.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!tamvm1.tamu.edu!HWS.bitnet!HWS1!MIHALYI
Subject: friends in hurricane areas
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:26:00 GMT

Original-Sender: HWS.bitnet!HWS1!MIHALYI

>From what I can make out of these crazy e-mail headers, it seems as if
Peshe hasn't submitted anything to the list since last Friday...before
the hurricane.  I wonder if he and other friends in the hurricane areas
need help and if we, as a group, can do anything?

Best wishes,

Mary Mihalyi

mihalyi @ hws.bitnet
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: pete s <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:26:20 GMT

Original-Sender: pete s <CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>

Peshewegunzh wrote that the some people are urging the EPA to assert
powers, (perhaps of a sovereign nature) over native american nations
on environmental issues...

That may be true, however the evidence i've seen is quite different.
The Navajo nation has its own EPA, operating for specifically Navajo
concerns-- notably recent proposals for an asbestos dump on clan lands.
>From my conversation w/ Sadie Haskie, the executive of the NEPA, my im-
pression is that the Navajo nation has complete control of its environ-
mental agenda.

Peshe implied that environmental regulations are unresponsive, almost
the basis of a new totalitarianism;  and i find this attitude troubling
wherever it lies.

While there is some basis to his (and others, notably the People for the
West) concerns in our history-- such as the BIA's stock reduction plan
in the 1930s, when the BIA essentially deprived poorer Navajo herders of
their sheep in order to stabilize the regional ecosystems-- i believe
that environmental protections are more protective than proscriptive.

What do you think?

PLEASE THINK OF FUTURE GENERATIONS:  PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT!

PETE SHEMITZ, DEPT. OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS-LAWRENCE
PSHEMITZ@UKANVM.BITNET

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: sbrock@teal.csn.org (Steve Brock)
Subject: Forward from Kris (azklb@asuvm.inre.asu.edu)
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:11:42 GMT

     I just received a packet of information from Robert A.
Witzeman, M.D., one of the leadres of the opposition movement.  In
this packet is an affidavit from Charles Polzer.
     In this affidavit, Fr. Polzer states "Indeed Mount Graham was
so unused by Apaches taht it became an occasional hideout from
Spanish, Mexican, and United States Cavalry Patrols.  Had Mount
Graham been a sacred locale for the Apache Nation, military records
would have clearly mentioned it as the focal point for punitive
raids.  Rarely did the Apaches use these mountain heights and the
sacredness is about as specific as references to the sky."
(Affidavit dated April 6, 1992).
     I don't understand how he is arriving at this conclusion. 
Even in western culture, people make use of sacred sites as
sanctuary from presecution, even from legal authorities.  An
escaped slave in Roman times could run to a temple and take hold of
the altar and claim sanctuary and the Sanctuary Movement continues
this tradition.  
     Why is Apache use of the mountain evidence that the mountain
is not sacred?  If anything, this would indicate that it is sacred! 
Also, why is he assuming that military records would mention
punitive raids against the mountain.  Did the military necessarily
have to know it was sacred?  It also assumes that the military had
exact knowledge of the area, often they did not.  Do military
records mention every skirmish?
Another point he raises is that "The Apaches were very late
immigrants to the Gila Valley."   So?  Were the Spanish any
earlier?

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: jrobie@netmbx.netmbx.de (Jonathan Robie)
Subject: Handsome Lake
Organization: netmbx, Berlin, Germany
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:19:25 GMT

Can anybody summarize the life and teachings of Handsome Lake?

Thanks!


Jonathan

===========================================================================

Jonathan Robie		jrobie@netmbx.UUCP
Arnold-Zweig-Str. 44	jrobie@netmbx.in-berlin.de
O-1100 Berlin		
Deutschland		Phone:  +37 (2) 472 04 19  (Home, East Berlin)
				+49 (30) 342 30 66 (Work, West Berlin)




-- 
Jonathan

===========================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!titan.ucc.umass.edu!derrico (Peter d'Errico)
Subject: Re: NAVAJO OLD GROWTH FOREST TO BE CUT
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 15:10:33 GMT

Original-Sender: titan.ucc.umass.edu!derrico (Peter d'Errico)

>
> Original-Sender: Carlos Rodriguez <cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cr11>
>
> Amung the Navajo, the election process has been a very strong weopon
> against the white government.  From its inception, the people have been
> able to frustrate many of the US projects.  Most of the Chairmen that
> have been elected were not the choice of the US.  In fact the first of
> the Navajo Tribal Chairmen was none other than Manuelito himself.  If

I appreciate your comments. I am somewhat familiar with the Navajo
government, having worked for a couple of years in the Shiprock office
of DNA legal services way back in the late '60's. Pete Zah was one of
the people who hired me, and Peter MacDonald was head of the navajo
OEO at the time. Anyway, I do not mean to say that the "tribal
council" elected form of government cannot be used in the struggle for
independence; it is certainly an important arena of political
struggle. But my point is that it is just that -- an arena of
struggle. It is not a straight-forward "representative" of the
"people." Maybe no government is anything but an arena of struggle
(including the US). I just want to caution against an uncritical
acceptance of whatever a "tribal" government does -- in my experience,
they are more "government" than "tribal." Your comments make that same
point, I think:

> It is important to remember that the Navajo never had a central
> chief, any chief that they did have was "elected by ALL of the
> clans.".  For the most part each area had its own leader.
> Now a days, the chapter house is the main political stronghold,
> it is here where you will find the true government of the Navajo.

> Walk in beauty,

Yes. By your side,

Peter


--
Peter d'Errico                                              phone: 413-545-2003
Legal Studies Department                                    fax:   413-545-1640
University of Massachusetts/Amherst 01003           dErrico@titan.ucc.umass.edu

Newsgroups: alt.internet.services