From: rlc1028@zeus.tamu.edu (Gadson Sandor)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Education Regarding Alternative Family Units
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:01:00 GMT
Followup-To: alt.rush-limbaugh
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.tamu.edu

In article <1439@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes...
|In article <5JAN199319085569@zeus.tamu.edu> rlc1028@zeus.tamu.edu (Gadson Sandor) writes:
|>	And, obviously, you didn't think to much of the possibility
|>that such attitudes could lead to furthering their juvenile bigotry.
|>Had they been saying things which you really had thought to be either
|>wrong or dangerous, would you have interjected?  I mean, what if they 
|>had been going on about how rotten "niggers" are?  Would you have been
|>content to simply observer the conversation for its interesting qualities?
| 
|Why do you think, that I didn't think it was wrong?  What ever my feelings
|are on their attitudes, as I've said, I don't consider it my right to assume
|the job of setting the moral compasses of other peoples children.

	I didn't completely assume that you didn't think it was wrong.
To test the point was why I asked if you would have interjected had
they been saying bad things about Blacks.  (I did assume that you would
consider such statements about Blacks to be wrong).  And, you have
answered my question.


|And as I said, or actually tried to imply, prior to this conversation I
|was unaware any such show existed on MTV, so I very well couldn't tell
|them what they should have or could have noticed.  I got pretty sick and
|tired of the junk MTV spews out many years ago and haven't tuned in at all
|in years. 

	Same here.



|As for what I heard from the kids, their perception, right or wrong I can't
|judge because I haven't seen it, their perception is that this show is about
|homosexuals and they've rejected it.  If it is as you say, and I'll take your
|word on it, that there is only on bisexual man amonst a group; then I would
|think that there reaction is a pretty good indicator as to the type and 
|degree of impact even minimum exposure can have.

	It might also be an indication of one or two kids' embellishment.
Don't know how many of them reaally saw the show.


|>grew up around privately racist people, my schooling told me that Blacks
|>were good people.  And (to please your threorising) I do recall other kids 
|>who ignored the teaching nonetheless, and are bigots today.  But that
|>social engineering worked on me.  
| 
|Now be honest here, I have a question for you.   Since I have never said
|that this type of social engineering will never work and you say it seems 
|to have worked on you; would you also argue that as a whole  the racial
|climate is significantly better in this country?

	For me to judge the impact on the whole, I would have to be exposed
to the whole, which I am not.  I can however speak for the community in 
which I lived as a child and adolescent.  We had no racial problems in 
high school after the first few Blacks started coming in.  Everyone I know
in my church will tell you that they welcome anyone of any race, regardless
of what they feel (because I can't tell what they feel).  They have learned
at least what is considered socially accpetable attitudes to people of 
different cultures.

	If I were to try to judge the national racial climate as an whole,
I could start by looking at the media issues like the Rodney King beating,
or the Mallace Green slaying.  First, I'd have to admit that these are 
individual instances, and do not represent the whole.  Even so, I'd have to 
consider the public reaction -- the condemnations of the actions -- by 
both Blacks and non-Blacks to be a positive sign.  And, I'd see the riots 
as a good and a bad sign.  Good because it brought attention to the issue, 
and bad because I prefer less violent means of protest.  The riots also
were simply used as an excuse to loot, haveing little to do with protest.



  Are the recent experiences
|of New York City and Los Angeles indications of the effectiveness of
|wide spread tolerance programs?  Can you name me one culture or country
|where the teaching of views that were in direct opposition to traditionally
|held cultral views, didn't eventually result in widespread violence?  

	I cannot name any case where the teaching of any non-traditional
value resulted in widespread violence.  I do not consider the LA riots 
to be quite widespread, but more importantly, I do not consider them to
be a result of teaching non-traditional values.


|I think Europe is probably a good place to start looking for evidence.  
|Let's see, Germany tried alot of this "engineering" after WWII, is their
|recent bout with resurgent Nazism and other ultra right wing groups just
|a coincidence?

	I don't know.  If you're going to try to blame the resurgence of
Nazi-ism on social engineering, you'll need to know how much social engi-
neering was going on before Nazi-ism proper got started?  


--------------------
  Bosina maybe?
--------------------

	Seems to me that those people have always disliked each other, and
wanted their neighbour's land.  It was the imposition of common oppression 
that kept them from resuming their wars.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Muslims and Serbs seemed to do just fine
|as long there was an iron fist to enforce the law.  Left to their own
|though it seems that there, and in much of eastern Europe, the hate was 
|suppressed.   
| 
|Can you show me just one example of social engineering at this level has
|ever been successful?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	If you are calling the Yugoslavian totalitarian rule to be "social
engineering", then it would seem that the removal of this engineering
is what allowed for the violence.  I, however, cannot in clear conscience
call it social engineering unless I know the mechanics of the Yugo 
govenmental policies.


|Try foreseeing this.  Sooner or later these kids will graduate, hopefully,
|and when they leave the public school system and find they can not compete in
|college and in the job market with the graduates of schools Bidwell friends
|they'll want to know why.  When they look back to find out why there public
|educations failed them waht will they see?  Will they see a system that devoted
|all its resources to giving them the very best education, the very best 
|skills, the best chance to compete in life?  Or will they look back and see 
|a system rife with lazy union hacks that would rather spend their time and
|money sharing their values on everything from gay rights to animal rights and
|squanders their resources on social engineering rather than education.

	That depends on whether the public schools abandon the teaching
of things other that social studies.  I doubt they will.  I could of course
foresee the graduates of a private school which ignored cultural issues
living in an housing development which discriminates based on both income 
and apearance.  I could see the poor, misinformed Latino gang from the 
projects shooting a hole through the head of the private school yuppie
as he drives home to his exclusive neighbourhood.  See, the kids figured 
that the yuppie and his values were the source of their problems.  They got 
onthe wrong track in the public schools, and were never taught the origins 
of poverty or the tolerance of cultures (yeah, the guy they shot at was 
only a rich Anglo).  And, the white kids in their school were not exposed 
to Latino culture, and they didn't form friendships with them, and never
stopped to think that they lived in families which tried to get by not 
unlike their own.  Sound far fetched?  Well, maybe no more that your
forevision.


|I know which of those two my city wastes my taxes dollars on and I'm
|not the least bit happy about it.  And something tells me that when Chelsa
|Clinton looks back she will see something quite different than the garbage
|my son is getting.  

	Eh, what garbage is your son getting (in school?)?  What's his
curricula like, I'd like to know?

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