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From: GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL (DRCV06::GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Calvinist writers and speakers.
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:11:00 GMT
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Jesse, good list, Albert Martin is probably the fnest living preacher of
Grace.  But, my friend, how could you miss Arthur W. Pink?  His books are a
nonesuch in the literature of Calvinism.

Actually, I still dislike the use of the word Calvinism to describe belief
in the Doctrines of Grace, but it is, I guess, a handle that people can get
a handle [huh?] on.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:16:38 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Colorado Re: Civil Rights Why?

>> Now all we have to do is sit all of "those people" down and explain
>> this to them and they'll forget all about this "civil rights
>> business".
> >
> Mike,
> I guess maybe we need special rights for murders, too!

In regards to this reply:

1. My name is Michele, not Mike.  I do not appreciate someone changing
   the form or gender of my name.

2. The subject line was Civil Rights? Why?  I know this seems picking since
   this is a branch off from the Colorado thread, but changing the title
   made it more difficult to find again.

3. Murders have nothing to do with the topic.  I don't think murders should
   be given civil rights because the act takes away the rights of the
   victim.  I don't think the act of two consenting adults that do not
   affect others has anything to do with murder or with what they do on
   the job.   If you believe what their doing is a sin its their personal
   sin that they will have to deal with God, not you.  If you are so much
   for prosecuting homosexuals like murder, will you also be quick to
   prosecute other sexual activities between consenting adults that are
   not appropriate to you?

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:35:23 -0800
From:         John Baskette <jfb@MACSCH.COM>
Subject:      Christianity?

From: jfb@draco.macsch.com (John Baskette)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Christianity?
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 Hello Marissa Ratcliff,
I am writing a freindly note here just to say the Einstein was not a devote
Christian.

The most that could be said about Einstein was that he was a theist of
sorts.  He claimed to believe in the God of Spinoza.  I do not know
much about Spinoza'a philosophy, but I have read that Spinoza was a
pantheist.  If this is the case then Einstein's God is not like the
Judeao-Christian concept.  What follows is a quote where Einstein
describes his belief.

This is taken from "The Road of Science and the Ways to God" by Stanley
Jaki, pp. 192-193.

    "You find it surprising," he wrote to Solovine on March 30, 1952,
    "that I think of the comprehensibility of the world (insofar as we
    are entitled to speak of such world) as a miracle or an eternal
    mystery.  But surely, a priori, one should expect the world to be
    chaotic, not to be grasped by thought in any way.  One might
    (indeed one should) expect that the world evidenced itself as
    lawful only so far as we grasp it in an orderly fashion.  This
    would be a sort of order like the alphabetical order of words.
    On the other hand, the kind of order created, for example, by
    Newton's gravitational theory is of a very different character.
    Even if the axioms of the theory are posited by man, the success
    of such a procedure supposed in the objective world a high degree
    of order, which we are in no way entitled to expect a priori.
    Therein lies the 'miracle' which becomes more and more evident as
    our knowledge develops."  To this Einstein added the even more
    revealing remark: "And here is the weak point of positivists and
    of professional atheists, who feel happy because they think that
    they have preempted not only the world of the divine but also of
    the miraculous.  Curiously, we have to be resigned to recognizing
    the 'miracle" without having any legitimate way of getting any
    further.  I have to add the last point explicitly, lest you think
    that weakened by age I have fallen into the hands of the priests."

It would seem that Einstein's theism is a very limited one, more akin
to deism and closer to agnosticism than Christianity.

John
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:05:55 -0600
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Colorado Vote-2

In <CHRISTIA%92121315174319@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU> "Michael A. Kline"
<MKLINE@VDH.BITNET> writes:

[...]
>    Pat: Well I think most people feel that way. And so the citizens of
>Colorado. I don't understand this business. We're supposed to be in a
>free country where people are able to vote their conscience and yet if
>any state votes its conscience on any particular matter, whether it's a
>budget constraint, or what ever, then people all over the country start
>boycotting them. What kind of freedom is this?
[...]

I believe it would be called freedom of association.  Some do not care
to associate with those who legalize discrimination based on factors
unrelated to job performance or residency or  . . .

Regarding the suitability of THOSE PEOPLE to be teachers, I believe I've
read that majority of those sexually abusing minors are heterosexuals.
Maybe we should start a drive to exclude those filthy hets from teaching!
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:09:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Colorado

<My comment was in reference to sodomy laws.  If something is believed to be
<wrong, and there are laws against it, does that make it a violation of civil
<rights?  I am referring to laws against certain behavior.  Murder is one, and
<homosexuality is another.  Now, if it is an opinion of what is wrong, then we
<talk of basis for right and wrong.  If it is wrong, it is wrong.  Consenting
<or not.

Joe,

Were laws against interracial marriage violations of civil rights?  How about
laws against women voting?  How about slavery?

Dan
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:09:17 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Ans (Dan Harling...RE: Abusive Relationships...)

Dan.  You're right.  What can I say?
I think my friend got out because of what happened before the divorce, but
it was for her well-being, and safety.  God knew her situation, and
He probably made a way...in fact?  I know He did.  My friend is back on
her own two feet, smiling, and will undoubtedly, enjoy Christmas to the
maximum this year.  (I know her brother...if what he got her last year
was any indication, she'll be getting lots of CD's on Christmas morning!)
:0
(What the heck....Ignore that!)
Thanks for the consideration shown to the post I sent.  God Bless you all
...

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:23:02 EST
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Eternal Security: supporting your argument

Scott,

      Don't pound your head on a wall.  Only God knows if your friend is saved
now, or in the past, or in the future.  Instead of debating about her, pray
fervently for her and trust in the wisdom of God.  Jesus has said that if you
are his, nobody can take you away from him.  With God all things are possible.
Remain faithful in your prayers and be at peace.  God will take care of it.
In the meanwhile, set a good example for Christ before your friend and ask
the Holy Spirit to put words in your mouth to express before her.  God will
answer your prayers.

                      Love, Bernice
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:28:57 EST
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Civil rights

Molly,
   Of course you are right. I tend to be laconic to the point that I
fail to make my viewpoints clear. I have great respect for an
individual who seeks God's will in dealing with a sexual orientation
that he did not conciously choose when he knows that the physical
expression of that orientation is contrary to God's plan for humanity
as revealed in the Bible.
   I am convinced that pre-adolescents are sexually ambivalent but have
a tendency toward either homosexual or heterosexual orientation. I
believe that external influences shape that orientation and those with
an inherent tendency toward homosexuality are more easily conditioned
to accept that lifestyle. I do not, based on personal experience, accept
the idea that sexual orientation is "cast in concrete" at birth and
cannot be changed. Twenty-five years ago I made a concious decision
to reject the sexually ambivalent part of my personality. I know that
God honored that decision by giving me a wife whom I dearly love and
two beautiful children. I can never turn back, nor do I have any desire
do so. God has given me the strength and the will to be one-hundred
percent faithful to my wife.
    What I cannot accept is the militant insistence that homo-
sexual lifestyles be given the same respect and legitimacy as normal
heterosexual marriages and familial relationships.
                                              In Christ,
                                              Claude
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:13:00 CST
From:         RussN@SSECMAIL.SSEC.WISC.EDU
Subject:      Re: Christmas Sharing

>I think of two possible areas concerning Christmas where we could share
>in a similar manner.  The first way would be to share some of our family
>Christmas traditions.  Not only could this help us to get to know each other
>better, it could perhaps encourage some of us to adopt meaningful things done
>by other people.
>
>A second area we could share in is not directly related to the spiritual part
>of Christmas, but is related to a common tradition done during this time of
>year.  Many of us send out Christmas cards to a variety of friends and
>relatives.  Many people (myself included) include a short (less than 1 page)
>note of what has happened to us this past year.  It might be useful for those
>of us who do this, to submit copies of them to CHRISTIA.  This would help
>us to get to know each other better, as we see how God is leading each of our
>families.

Both of these sound like a great idea to me...

Russ Neumeier
SSEC, UW-Madison
russn@ssec.wisc.edu
Madison, WI -- sixty-two square miles surrounded by reality
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:17:13 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 12/16

MAN: "... what people think ... they are just a puff of wind" (Psalm 94:11).

GOD: "But the Lord's plans will stand forever.  His ideas will last from now
on" (Psalm 33:11).

"Happy is the nation whose God is the Lord" (Psalm 33:12).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:30:02 CST
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Ken's son/prayer request

I have a daughter 29 years old who has been in a state institution for
developmentally disabled for some years.  When she was living with us
(until she was 11) she tried to get to the playground whenever she could.  Once
she learned to unlock the door lock (without our knowledge) and ran off and
literally disappeared.  It was the neighborhood kids who knew where she was
and helped us find her.

I know kids can be mean and cruel.  But a lot of them are also concerned
and can be a valuable resource for your family.  I hope you will have more
positive experiences in the future.

Please pray for Mary.  The State of Illinois is closing her facility and
transferring her to another place.  Moves are always traumatic for her--she
is self-abusive and can injure herself.

Thanks,

In Christ,

Carol
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:57:34 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      christmas - not christs birth

Lets all remember that December 25 is basically a pagan celebration
and most probably Christ was not born on this date. It is more probable
that it is somewhere between July and October.

The so called Spirit of Christmas is really the Spirit of Christ! The
love and caring that we should all share throughout the WHOLE year...

Basically I do not get overexcited at christmas. Australia, like
most countries has turned the time into such that it is the highest
suicide rate of the year, and a time that highlights the lonliness and
wants of the society we live in...

Christ is King, but throughout the whole year!..

Let us by all means enjoy 'Hark the Herald Angels' but why only sing it
in December???



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |      Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:14:04 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: PRAYER REQUEST-LIZ

Dear Liz,

I have been enjoying your posts with Carol and Theresa.  They have
really been an inspiration to me also, as to alot of us on Christia.
Since we have been praying for your family, I expect a change for the
coming New Year.  We are going to start believing God to make changes
in the situation with your family.  We are suppose to call those things
that be not as though they were; and believe whatever we pray for (accor-
ding to the Word) and shall not doubt, that we shall have it; also if
we delight ourselves in Him, He will give us the desires of our hearts.

Dear Heavenly Father,

You said that we have authority over all sickness and diseases.  We ask
You in Jesus Name to heal Liz's family from all sickness and disease
We receive Your power God to make them sound, whole, and delivered,
and healed.  We resist sickness, disease, and pain in Jesus Name - this
is not the will of God for them.  By Jesus' stripes they are healed in
Jesus name.  Father forgive us for anything that we have said or done
and create in us clean hearts and please renew a right Spirit within us.
Help us to be clean vessels so that Your power in Your Word will perme-
ate those who we minister to.  Jesus said that without Him we can do
nothing.  Father we look to You for Your perfect will to be done in
Jesus mighty Name.  Amen and Amen.

Liz I'm going to believe this prayer and look to hear testimonies from
you in every area.  I'm only going to believe God's reports for your
family.  Keep posting and praying for me and my family also.

Love ya!

Shelby--
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:35:44 -0700
From:         "Glenn Radinsky S05152@doc.flc.colorado.edu"
              <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      setting NOMAIL

Dear Madge:

     Sorry about asking that question a little prematurely.
As it happens, the VAXes that I am speaking about are not
going to be downed until the 27th.  I was jsut asking before
that time so that I could send the appropriate command to
the LISTSERVer on the 26th or something.  Until then, I
definitely would like to be able to "converse" with the
brothers and sisters that are a part of this list.

                           Thanks,



                            Glenn
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:29:12 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Shakespeare and Psalm 46

Forwarded note from bit.listserv.christia.   --Madge
----------------------------------------------------
******   START OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******

>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
>Subject: Re: Shakespeare and Psalm 46
>Sender: news@infodev.cam.ac.uk (USENET news)
>Organization: U of Cambridge, England
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:57:44 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92121623141795@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU> JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
writes:
>Gareth McCaughan writes:
>
   [ stuff about Psalm 46 and Shakespeare]
>
>However!
>
>My 1549 BCP prints Psalm 46 as the Introit for Lent IV. It omits the
>final verse ("The Lord of hostes is with us; the God of Jacob is
>oure refuge"), presumably because it is an exact repetition of the
>earlier verse.  In this translation "shake" is the 46th word from
>the beginning, and "spear" is the 46th word from the end. The
>differences in wording from the AV are minor. In the closing verses,
>for example, the BCP has "be still THEN" and "heavens, AND I will",
>but writes "will be" twice as "wylbe", thus evening out the count.
>
>Since the 46 count is to be found in a translation printed before
>Shakespeare was born, it is either prophecy or coincidence. I
>incline to the latter.

Thank you for this fascinating information -- I hadn't known that.
I agree with your assessment that it is unlikely to be a case of
prophecy!

In view of all this, I hereby retract my claim that the BCP version
of Psalm 46 is evidence that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare, or of
anything else. Ho hum.

--
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]


******   END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE   ******
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 04:26:23 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      reply to Ronald Erickson

Ronald Erickson writes:

     (1) that the Book of Revelation was certainly written by St.
John.

What is your evidence, please? The book claims to be written by
someone named John, but what makes you sure that this is the Apostle
John, the son of Zebedee?

     (2) that when the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible was
being prepared, some translators wanted to write "Creator" instead
of "Father."

Their reason was that "Father" is masculine, while "Creator" is not.
They never claimed that there were ancient manuscripts of the
Scriptures that read "Creator" (in Hebrew of Greek) where
traditional English versions read "Father." In other words, their
recommendation was not based on linguistic scholarship and did not
claim to be.

     (2) that the same persons who now teach the Trinity used to
believe that the world was flat, and used to argue over how many
angels can dance on the head of a needle.

Ronald, do you really mean the same persons? Very few people alive
today were around in the Middle Ages. Most of them were not even
around for the Crimean War. But in any event, the widespread belief
that medieval Christians believed that the earth was flat is simply
and flatly wrong. Thomas Aquinas refers to the sphericity of the
earth at the very beginning of the SUMMA THEOLOGIAE, even before He
discusses the existence of God. Dante in his COMEDY describes a
journey through the earth to the other side, noting that up and down
are reversed as the travelers pass the center. Once on the other
side, he is told, "The time is A here, B at the mouth of the Ganges,
C at Jerusalem, D at Rome, and E at Gibraltar." He notes that the
shadow moves around a sundial counter-clockwise in the Southern
Hemisphere, and in general shows that he has correctly understood
the implications of the fact that the earth is a globe.  As far as I
know, the earliest Christian writer to refer to the roundness of the
earth is Irenaeus the pupil of Polycorp the pupil of the Apostle
John.

As for the number of angels who can dance on the head of a needle
(perhaps you mean the head of a pin, or the point of a needle), I
have a standing offer of $100 for anyone who can show me a
discussion of this question in any Christian writer before 1500.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 11:49:40 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: PREGNANT-BERNICE

Dear Bernice,

I just wanted to take this time to tell you I really enjoyed your post
and to encourage you to keep letting the Lord use you on this network
in such a unique and dynamic way.

Love,

Shelby--

P.S.  It seems that everyone is a lot more caring and loving since I was
      on no mail last week.  It is a welcomed change.  PRAISE THE LORD!!
      (Smile).
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:17:36 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Civil Rights? Why?

> Constant solitications of my childrent by these "gay" people occured.

> Men molesting boys IS homosexual, I believe.

I don't know what you mean by these solicitations.  However unless you
are a little more specific, it seems like you were expecting solicitations,
therefore, gays talking to your children was defined as solicitations.

Men molesting boys IS CHILD ABUSE AND RAPE OF MINORS.

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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