HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 09:05:51 EST(-0500)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

"Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com> writes:
> And as a matter of fact, human observation of human behavior is 
> amazingly acute, considering how poor a *statistical* basis for 
> inference most human experience provides. Read Chomsky on language 
> acquisition, for example. 

I have.  Chomsky is mainly talking about language skills, and indeed human
ability to comprehend human language is an amazing skill ... though in a few
centuries it may be said that we thought the skill amazing only because we
were unable to understand the mechanisms.

This ability does not extend to risk estimation or any other quantitative
observation.  As one example, consider the persistent public belief that many
people are killed when they are trapped by seat belts in crashed motor
vehicles, despite the overwhelming evidence that seat belts improve one's odds
of surviving a crash -- and observe the risky behavior that follows from this
mistaken belief.  Trusting informal observation for risk-related
measurements is not only highly inaccurate but, in many cases, exceedingly
dangerous.

The original posting dealt with the question of whether a particular type of
(partially) educational program is effective.  Any non-statistical approach to
evaluating such a program will inevitably reflect the viewpoint of the observer
rather than the effects of the program.  If you wish to express your opinions
and viewpoints, I will certainly listen.  But please do not hide opinions and
viewpoints under a cloak of non-existent statistics.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
From: michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Michael of Nebadon)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Bikes and the Washington Metrorail
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:53:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <Jym.15Nov1992.0038@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>> You need to get a bicycle permit from the Metro people.
>> It's a bit involved -- you have to take a class, see a video,
>> answer a little test, cough up $18 or something . . .
>
>=\= Good heavens!  Here in the Bay Area we have a heavy rail
>system identical to D.C.'s Metro, and all we have to do is
>cough up $3 every 3 years and abide by some rules.

You have to remember that D.C. is the "seat" of government. In D.C., you're
supposed to get permits to take tripod photos of the monuments, federal
buildings, etc. Holyoke, MA used to be called "Paper City" because they
produced so much of it... I vote for D.C. to take over the title since
they shuffle so much of it! ;-(

michael@afterlife.ncsc.mil
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: jtkrist@ameris.ameritech.com (James T. Krist)
Subject: Re: Swiss Army Bike
Organization: Ameritech, Hoffman Estates, IL
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:11:32 GMT

There was an article in the paper (including a picture) last year.
I had it on the door to my office for a while with the caption,
"Share the road with a Biker."  The picture shows a soldier in full
battle gear.  The bike has a pack on the front handlebars, rear
panniers that look like they carry ammunition, and a machine gun
(like an M-60) along the main tube and on a rear rack.  According
to the article the bike weights 48 pounds and can cary a load of
370 pounds (including rider).

The article was from the AP and appeared in the Chicago Tribune
on 10/10/91.  Can someone find the text?  I don't have time to 
enter it right now.

Jim

-- 
jtkrist@ameris.center.il.ameritech.com 			James T. Krist
1-708-248-5475 (voice) 			 Ameritech Services, Room 3C46
1-708-248-6046 (fax) 	   	      2000 West Ameritech Center Drive
				   Hoffman Estates, IL, USA 60196-1025
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Tuesday, 17 Nov 1992 12:29:34 PST
From: <TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Swiss Army Bike

How does one get one of these Swiss Army Bikes?  This might be the answer to
Rednecks in four wheels...by the way, does it have a handle bar mount for a
357 mag.?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ovr@lk-hp-9.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Subject: Re: Request for statistics concerning bicycle helmet use in Holland
Reply-To: ovr@snakemail.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Organization: L{nsi-Uudenmaan Keisarillinen Polyteknillinen Koulu
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:54:13 GMT

In article <28376@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>In article <69759@cup.portal.com> JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester) writes:
>Factors: water 4; grease 2; rock 1; pack 1; eating and drinking 2; cars 2.

>Solo: 9; other vehicles: 3.

>>   I suggest that it is very likely that the actual accident pattern
>>for many European cyclists, when it is investigated, will show a
>>pattern much more like the known American one than some European
>>activists like to think.

>occasionally some snow and ice. Cyclists in these conditions don't
>make the kind of discoveries via accidents about wet wood, steel, etc.
>that you mention: they have known these things so well for so long
>they can't remember not knowing them.

Yes, I wouldn't consider most of John's solo "accidents" accidents, nor
would any accident stats that I'm aware of. A slippery patch in the
road is quite acceptable and should be crossed with due care. If, say,
there is a pothole covered with a puddle, be careful. The same goes for
all usual obstructions. These mishaps are pretty much a part of normal
cycling, that's all. (I had to patch my tights because of a fall last
month, it took ten minutes to recall why it happened. (Abandoned,
asphalted-over railroad tracks parallel to my path, very wet, below
walking speed. Actually I was waiting to get past the customs returning
by ferry from Sweden.)

Other than numerous mishaps, I've had two real (tm) accidents. One was
solo and because of my own stupidity, the other one with a car, me not
guilty. This is probably more than usually.
--
Ott-Vill R______________________
ovr@snakemail.hut.fi
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: don@island.COM (Don Hermes)
Subject: Re: Swiss Army Bike
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:05:36 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.183059.23089@slustl.slu.edu> guy@slustl.slu.edu (Guy Smith) writes:
>In article <92322.122934TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>How does one get one of these Swiss Army Bikes?  This might be the answer to
>>Rednecks in four wheels...by the way, does it have a handle bar mount for a
>>357 mag.?
>No, just a built-in corkscrew.
And one of those little plastic toothpicks.


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: RONEAL@lexmark.com (Randy O'Neal)
Subject: Re: Swiss Army Bike
X-Disclaimer: These views are the poster's and not necessarily those of Lexmark
Organization: Lexmark International, Lexington, KY
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:03:03 GMT

In article <Bxtv25.3q@u36.kwnet.on.ca>
sp@u36.kwnet.on.ca (Sean P Goggin) writes:
 
>
>
>
>The Swiss Army will retire their old single gear bikes for their
>mountain troops over the coming two years.
>They will replace these aged wheels with a new bike, 10 speed,
>designed to carry 100 lbs.
>What can the net.wisdom contribute to these sketchy pseudo facts ?
>
>I suppose this might be considered the ultimate car deterrent -
>heavily armed cyclists. :-)
 
Not too heavily armed with bikes that are designed to carry 100 lbs...
unless the Swiss army is made up of a bunch of Smurfs... :)
 
 
Randy O'Neal  RONEAL@lexmark.com     Printer Attach Software Development
                                     Lexmark International, Inc.
-- Weinberg's Law --                 Lexington, Ky.
'If builders built buildings like
 programmers wrote programs, then                                     __o
 the first woodpecker that came      "The views above are not those  `\<,
 along would destroy civilization.'   of my employer... just mine."  O/ O
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: boynton@fys.ruu.nl (Chris Boynton)
Subject: Re: Request for statistics concerning bicycle helmet use in Holland.
Keywords: Inujuries, solo crashes
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 12:17:31 GMT

In article <28245@castle.ed.ac.uk>, cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov16.035633.24084@cbnewsm.uucp> madine@cbnewsm.uucp (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.) writes:
|> 
|> >I am not surprised by the lack of bicycle helmets in a different
|> >culture.  And I am not going to criticize it.  What surprised and
|> >disturbed me was the local opinion expressed by some at the meeting when
|> >we discussed it briefly.  It was put forth that the lack of
|> >car/bike accidents in Holland justified the attitude of safety.
|> >When I pointed out that at least 8/10 bicycle crashes are solo in
|> >the U.S., it was argued that the helmet's primary purpose was to
|> >protect in car/bike accidents.

I'm sorry I somehow missed the begining of this thread. I'm living in Holland
now and I am wondering about the local statistics on bike accidents. I have 
been riding a bike to and from work for about 8 months and I wear a helmet.
I am astounded by the nearly weekly ridicule from strangers ( usually a 
teen aged person ) as I pass by. The ridicule varies from mild laughing 
and one liners to outright howling and beeping of horns accompanied by 
pointing and derisive comments. I am amused by this expression of the 
desire for conformity but I have also become curious about the bike 
accident statistics in Holland. In the time that I have been here, I 
personally have seen only three bike accidents, but interestingly, each one 
involved head injuries. One was mild, the other two were apparently severe. 
My personal observations do not make a good statistical sample but they are 
suggestive. 

What are the statistics for Holland on bike accidents, the proportion 
involving head injuries, and the relative severity of these head injuries? 
What are these statistics for children? 

|> 
|> The pattern of bike use in the US is quite different from that in
|> Europe, as evidenced by that extraordinary (for Europe) 8/10 solo crash
|> figure. Most bikes in US are (I suspect) ridden by young people with
|> sporting ambitions who like to ride fast, and take corners and downhills
|> close to the limits. Hence the frequent solo crashes, partly due to
|> overstepping the limits, and partly due to not paying attention because
|> too absorbed in strenuous muscular effort.
|> 

The statistics in the US suggest Chris Malcolm is correct in his analysis 
of the large ratio of solo bike accidents. Apparently (I'm quoting this 
from memory) 3/4 of all bike fatalities involving head injuries in the US 
are to children. 

chris 
--
G. Chris Boynton                        Tel (011) + (031) + 030-535203 
Sterrekundig Instituut RU Utrecht            ^Intr   ^Cntry ^City
Postbus 80000                           Fax (011) + (031) + 030-535201
NL - 3508  TA UTRECHT                   email: boynton@fys.ruu.nl
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: brianh@hp-4.cae.wisc.EDU (Brian Huilman)
Subject: Re: Request for Info on Bike Friendly Cities
Organization: College of Engineering, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison
Distribution: usa
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:46:10 CST
Originator: brianh@hp-4.cae.wisc.edu


pschimek@athena.mit.edu (Paul M Schimek) writes:
> For an urban transportation class I am doing a bike planning proposal for 

  [STUFF DELETED]
  
> I am looking for current information, and especially phone numbers 
> (e-mail addresses?) of bicycle planners or coordinators, or bike advocates, 
> in these various places.
>
> So far, I have considered the following places:
>
> Madison, WI -- I need Arthur Ross's phone number
  ^^^^^^^^^^^

I live and go to school here in Madison.  This is DEFINATELY a biker friendly
community (both within the 'city' and in the 'suburbs'...).  I can get you 
Ross's number (I'd get it now, but I'm not near a phone...).  I'd like to 
look at his plan myself...

Brian Huilman           University of Wisconsin - Madison
                        Department of Electrical/Computer Engineering
"Avoid the Bonk"        brianh@cae.wisc.edu
             _   __o
           ___  `\<,    "Speed is the reward for hard training."
             -  O/ O
From: CMSC28@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Mark Hickey)
Subject: Re: 7 Re: Swiss Army Bike
Organization: Motorola
Date: 20 Nov 1992 09:54:14 CST

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
(Newspaper article on Swiss Army Bike Deleted)
>"It is more rugged than the most rugged mountain bike," he  said.
>Weighing  in at 48 pounds -- almost four times the average weight
 *************************    ************************************
>of a racing bike -- it can carry a load  of  up  to  370  pounds,
 ****************
>including the rider, personal equipment, ammunition and a machine
>gun.

Man, I gotta keep up on all the new technology better!  I guess all
these neat Titanium parts have gotten more into the mainstream than
I thought!  I have to unload my 21-pound "pig"!  If the average
racing bike weighs 12 pounds, what do the exotic ones tip the scales
at?  Or could it be a case of the newspaper in question doing a
typical job of "objective" reporting (i.e. never let the facts stand
in the way of a good story).
Mark (All of the sudden riding a pig) Hickey
From: JForester@cup.portal.com (John - Forester)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: REAL statistics on bicycle accidents (?)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 08:33:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

   Please note that the statistics quoted are for all reported
traffic accidents in California, probably for one year. They are not
statistics of accidents only to cyclists. In fact, they may well be
inaccurate in the sense that most people would think that the
"Collision with Bicycle" heading included only car-bike collisions,
while it probably also includes bike-bike collisions. Such is the
error of simplistic statistical systems that are based on the
predominance of the motor vehicle as the only real form of traffic.

JForester@cup.portal.com               John Forester
                                       726 Madrone Ave
408-734-9426                           Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Subject: Re: Should lights be req. Std. Equipment?
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Summary: Big reflectors beat cheap taillights
Keywords: reflectors taillights lights
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Organization: Adobe Systems, Mountain View, CA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:30:26 GMT

In article <78100002@hpsad.sad.hp.com> frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Frank Ball) writes:

> As for being seen-it is taillights that concern me the most.  
> Generator taillights are pathetic.  Cars have 8 watt taillights for 
> a reason.

You don't need your own 8 watts, just reflect some of the approaching 
car's 100-200 watts back at them.

Although my bike has a taillight (battery powered) I feel that big
reflectors are better than taillights for being seen from the rear, at
least on straight roads (most of my cycling is urban/suburban, and the
roads are mostly straight).  

The small-but-legal red reflectors are pathetic, but you can buy real 
rear visibility cheaply.  REI and others sell a $6 triangle about 10 
inches on a side, with a two-inch outline (retroreflective, I believe) 
on a background of the standard safety-orange mesh.  Clips around your 
waist using a belt with a fanny-pack clasp, and hangs properly, facing
directly "aft".

I also carry one of those safety vests, basically the same reflective 
stripes and mesh construction.  $15 at most bike shops -- get the kind 
with a flap that hangs down across your behind when you're in standard
riding position, not the "jogger's" type that has no such flap.  I only
seem to use it when I'm riding in dark street clothes.

BTW, "retroreflective" material is best -- it's composed of thousands
of tiny reflectors that bounce light back the way it came.  "Reflexite"
is one such brand.

>Frank Ball   1UR-M          frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com


-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
From: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Shoullights be req. Std. Equipment?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 09:14:35 EST(-0500)
Organization: Accuracy, Ltd.
Reply-To: ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid)
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v0

frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Frank Ball) writes:
> The other big problem with generators is that when you stop they go
> out.

Does a generator-recharger system exist?  One with a generator that recharges
on-board batteries when moving fast enough, and uses the batteries when moving
slowly or stopped.  This seems like the ideal system except for the weight, but
I haven't seen such a thing on the market.  Are there technical problems, or
just not enough market?

I know, this belongs on r.b.tech, but I don't get that group, and the discussion
about lights is here.

Edward Reid  (8*}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.resun.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.resun.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Request for statistics concerning bicycle helmet use in Holland.
Keywords: Inujuries, solo crashes
Date: 17 Nov 92 04:46:26 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov16.035633.24084@cbnewsm.uucp> madine@cbnewsm.uucp (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.) writes:

>I am not surprised by the lack of bicycle helmets in a different
>culture.  And I am not going to criticize it.  What surprised and
>disturbed me was the local opinion expressed by some at the meeting when
>we discussed it briefly.  It was put forth that the lack of
>car/bike accidents in Holland justified the attitude of safety.
>When I pointed out that at least 8/10 bicycle crashes are solo in
>the U.S., it was argued that the helmet's primary purpose was to
>protect in car/bike accidents.

The pattern of bike use in the US is quite different from that in
Europe, as evidenced by that extraordinary (for Europe) 8/10 solo crash
figure. Most bikes in US are (I suspect) ridden by young people with
sporting ambitions who like to ride fast, and take corners and downhills
close to the limits. Hence the frequent solo crashes, partly due to
overstepping the limits, and partly due to not paying attention because
too absorbed in strenuous muscular effort.

In Europe most cyclists are ordinary commuters and shoppers of all ages
who are simply using a bike to get around instead of a car. They wear
ordinary street clothes and can't be bothered exerting themselves to the
point of sweating. They take it easy and carefully. They very rarely
have accidents, and when they do, it usually involves another vehicle.
Having an accident all by yourself strikes a European commuting cyclist
as indicative of a very foolhardy riding style. I've been riding
bicycles in cities for about six months a year for 35 years, and have
never fallen off on the road. I once fell off descending a steep muddy
mountain.  The only road accident I've ever was being pushed onto the
sidewalk by a London taxi turning across me, and it was barely an
accident since I didn't fall off but simply stopped astride the bike.

I don't wear a helmet, instead I never ride faster than 20mph. I do wear
strong leather gloves, since I think my hands are the most likely to get
damaged if I ever do have an accident. But since I've already covered
the bulk of my cycling career without serious incident, and am now a far
better cyclist -- in terms of safety in traffic -- than I was when
younger, I think I'm pretty unlikely to have an accident. 

If I went in for sporting cycling, training my muscles on the road, I
would of course wear a helmet. But doing sporting cycling on the same
roads as cars strikes me as horribly dangerous -- I just wouldn't do it,
even with a helmet. I'd go for a nice safe sport like rock climbing or
fell running.









-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
From: jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Request for statistics concerning bicycle helmet use in Holland.
Date: 22 Nov 92 17:07:24 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Nov16.035633.24084@cbnewsm.uucp>, madine@cbnewsm.uucp (G. E. Madine, AT&T-BL/AL, cbnewsm.) writes:
> 
> At a meeting of our local bicycle advocacy group 4 days ago, we
> viewed a slide show about bicycling in Leiden, Holland.  The photographer
> is a U.S. citizen who lived for some time in Leiden.
> 
> I noticed during the slides of hundreds of utility-motivated cyclists
> that not one was wearing a helmet.  Two children per adult driven bicycle
> sitting in crude bicycle seats fore and aft.  None had helmets.  Passengers
> sitting "sidesaddle" on rear racks.  No helmets.  The photographer
> said he wore his own helmet for about 2 days there before unbearable 
> local peer pressure stopped the practice.

> Gary E. Madine, Allentown, PA, USA
> gem@aloft.att.com
> 
> 
Well it just so happens that I have recently been hosting a Dutch student from
the Leiden University who lives in the Hague.  He has just finished touring New
Zealand and we talked a lot about the differences.  

Most Kiwis now wear helmets,  racers and others.  Those who don't tend to be
either the 'pro' racers "who go out to ride, not fall off", and teenagers,
the most vulnerable group to peer pressure.

Herman (the tourist) said that although he wore a helmet all around NZ, and
has done around Canada and France, he never will in the Netherlands.  He says
no-one else does,  and outs it down to the abundance of cycle lanes and 
cyclist-friendly drivers.

Here's your statistic of the day: The Netherlands has 50 million people,
12 million of whom regularly cycle.  It's also about the only place where
bikes are more expensive than NZ.

Jonathan.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:24:26 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   Mon, 16 Nov 92 08:41:26 EST(-0500)
>FROM:   Edward Reid <ed@titipu.resun.com>

>davevh@microsoft.com (Dave Van Horn) writes:
>> Ok:  I saw 5 or 6 such campaigns [....]

>Umm ... what cities, please?  References to 
>surveys supporting the outcome that
>you claim?  Human observation of human behavior is 
>highly unreliable [....]

Oh, for Heaven's sake. If we had to depend on statistics to make 
judgements about the world, we'd never be able to cross the street. 
Statistics are very nice in cases where statistically tractable data 
are available, but for most of the matters on which we have to make 
decisions -- and particularly political ones -- they aren't available, 
and we have to act on whatever fragmentary, anecdotal, incomplete, 
personal experience we have. 

And as a matter of fact, human observation of human behavior is 
amazingly acute, considering how poor a *statistical* basis for 
inference most human experience provides. Read Chomsky on language 
acquisition, for example. 

--Michael Smith