HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
	<1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:33:24 GMT

>In article <1992Jul30.204110.17057@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>I can think of several things the Orthodox do that Reform thinks is
>wrong: not holding women to the same ritual obligations and privileges
>as men is the most obvious one. Eating meat from animals that, while
>they may have been slaughtered according to the requirements of kashruth,
>were not treated in a humane fashion when they were alive, is another
>example.
>
  What is this allegation of inhumane treatment of animals?  Are you
  talking about veal?  So why does the butcher have a sign telling
  people not to eat veal because of how it is cared for?   
  



--
/M
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:17:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.151128.27703@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
> 
>    Overall, the gates article was good.  But he wrote about Jesse
> Jackson as if he was nothing more than a force for reconciliation
> and friendship.  This characterization flies in the face of Jesse
> Jackson's divisive statements of the past.  Jesse Jackson refered
> to Jews as "hymies."  This is a racist display that I doubt would
> be disregarded if the slur had been directed at blacks.  It might
> be suggested that the response to Jackson's "hymie" remarks would
> not have been so casual, outside of the Jewish community, if some
> group other than Jews had been the target.  The fact the piece by
> Gates did not say one word about an episode that was offensive to
> every Jew in America is, in and of itself, quite enlightening.
> -- 

I have to disagree.  I see Jesse Jackson's recent statements
as an attempt to wipe out the image that Mark is raising.
It maybe a very pragmatic attempt, in that it would be
tough to push forward the Jackson political agenda
without Jewish support, and the continued progress of
the Civil Rights movement also depends somewhat on continued
Jewish support, so he may have decided that Jewish support
was just not expendable.

Reading the section on Dershowitz's personal contacts with
Jackson in Chutzpah also backs up this view, that he has been mis-informed,
and when confronted with the reality of the situation, he
changes his mind on Jewish issues.

I would like to see him unequivocably condemn Farrakhan's anti-semitic
diatribes.

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:44:38 GMT

In article <dfs.712003525@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <1992Jul24.181710.9844@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu
>(Eliot Shimoff) writes:


>>What are the costs and probabilities
>>of either type of error?
>
>Nobody knows!  You're claiming that a day school education is more
>likely to lead to continued Jewish identity.  Maybe that's true, and
>maybe not.  What we need is hard evidence before we can talk about it
>intelligently.

Yeah, but we (you, me, all of us) have to decide _now_ about
our kids' educations, and we can't wait for the definitive double-
blind controlled experiments to provide definitive answers.  We gotta
decide now, and take our best shot.  

>>Twenty years ago, when relatively few Jewish kids attended day schools,
>>lots of parents figured that public school plus the home atmosphere
>>would be enough to ensure that the kids would maintain the parents'
>>religious commitment.  There is an adjective appropriate to describe
>>many of those people: heart-broken.  They guessed wrong, and they see
>>their grandchildren wandering from the path that they (the grandparents)
>>cherish.  My heart goes out to them, but I cannot help them.
>
>But you're making the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy, at least
>until you have evidence that the lack of day school rather than the
>general change in society has caused this wandering.

Again, controlled experiments are impossible, so post-hockery 
is unavoidable.  Logic and convergent evidence and prudence suggest
that, all else being equal, a day school (or yeshiva) education
is better (in terms of adult Jewish identification) than a Hebrew
school education.




-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: BAtman returns
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:12:49 GMT

In article <DAVIS.92Jul27184836@reaumur.ilog.fr> davis@reaumur.ilog.fr
(Harley Davis) writes:

>In article <1992Jul24.181029.24580@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
>jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:

>   There was a recent item in the NY TImes, Reprinted in the local
>   Jewish weekly, citing Batman Returns as being not very subtly
>   antisemitic.  The Pinguin is the archtype Jewish villlian, seeking to
>   kill the first born children of Gotham city.  Jewish sterotype
>   merchant cheating people with cheap Xmas trinkets....  etc... etc...
>   I have not yet seen the movie and was wondering if anyone on
>   SCJ had.  If so, did you see the allusions?  Are they real, or the
>   figments of demented students at Columbia (authors of article)?

>This is garbage.  The movie had no reference to Jews, subtle or overt.
>But you can have any fun you want to with this sort of thing.  For
>example, Catwoman in her black leather costume was certainly an
>anti-African-American character, going into sporting good stores and
>blowing them up, like in the LA riots.  Good grief.

>-- Harley Davis

Agreed.  To see the extent to which this kind of analysis can be taken,
read the book "The Pooh Perplex" (I don't have any further citation
information here, at work).  It contains a series of essays analysing the
Winnie the Pooh series from a variety of baises and perspectives:
Communist manifesto, sexual perversion, Christian theology, psychological,
etc.  Each, written by different people, is able to find "proof" for
his/her point of view.

It is a fun/funny book, but with a point.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:22:18 GMT

faigin@aerospace.aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
	Further, he notes that the Rabbinical Code by Maimonides (Hil. Melachim 10.7)
	says "Circumcision was commanded to Abraham and his seed only", as Gen. 17
	says "Thou, and thy seed after thee... and they are obligated to
	circumcision." ...

	He also notes that the principle regarding the rite is for the father to
	arrange it (not the mother). If the father fails, it devolves on the child. If
	the child fails, on the Bet Din. However, whoever is not of the seed of
	Abraham, Wise reasons, is not obliged to this duty. The Ger is not of the seed
	of Abraham. 

	After the Convert becomes a Ger, he has also become an Abrahamite; thus he has
	the duty to circumcise his children. 

Does the statement "Thou, and thy seed after thee... and they are obligated to
circumcision" refer to the requirement to circumcise a third party or to be
circumcised oneself.  I think it's the latter.  In the case of a Ger, his father
is obviously under no obligation to circumcise him.  In fact, even if he had, the
Ger would still be considered an `arel.  The obligation now rests upon the Ger
himself.

-Don Gertler
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Some Elementary Genetics
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:15:06 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel


 Message-ID: <4079@bimacs.BITNET>
 From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) asks:

>In article <1992Jul24.165949.5732@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>
>ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.155128.11311@nynexst.com>, schwartz@nynexst.com
>>(Steven Schwartz) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Jul24.131308.6019@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
>>|>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>
>>|> > In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>>|> >
>>|> > >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>>|> > >--
>>|> > >Yigal Arens       USC/ISI
>       ^^^^^^^^^^        ^^^
>
>>|> > Isn't USC in US-occupied Mexican territory?        Sam Saal
>>|>
>>|> No, Sam, it's in the European-occupied Native American territories.
>>|>
>>|> Steven H. Schwartz          Expert Systems Laboratory
>
>>       No, both of you are wrong.  It is Human-occupied Buffalo territories.
>
>Do Sam, Steven and Elya have any proof that
> Yigal is NOT a Mexican, a Native American or a Buffalo ?

Well actually Gideon should know, he has boasted often enough
on how well he knew Yigal's parents Muriel and Moshe Arens!

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:41:52 GMT

In <LERNER.92Jul26171846@division.cs.columbia.edu>
lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

>However the statement "Anochi  Hashem Elokeho" was said by Hashem.
>That is the unarguable truth.  It predates us and will postdate is
>as well..  It is not the product of some formal system.  It is the
>absolute G-d given truth.

That's your axiom, then.

How do we know that 1+1=2 is not an absolute G-d given truth?  After
all, the Torah gives us an approximation for PI... :-)

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Who are the Haredi?
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:57:22 GMT

In article <Brp94F.M9L@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
(A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>In attempting to translate the BaDaTZ hashgacha symbol on a bottle of
>Maccabee beer, I found myself having to translate the term "haredi"
>for my room-mate.  I rather fancy "quaker" as a translation, but that
>is, I believe, taken by another group of sombrely dressed people (who
>do not, I belive, throw rocks).  So, I decided that since there are
>deuced few Shakers left, I would use that term...the Court of Justice
>of the Shaker Community of Jerusalem.  Howzat?

My understanding for the reason that there are so few Shakers left is
that they do not believe in having sex.  At all.  Thus, their numbers
only grow through "conversion" and it takes real dedication to give up
that aspect of life.  While Haredi=tremble sounds close to "shake," I
suspect I'm not too far out of line to say that the Haredim are a
little more realistic about progeny.  Other, less humorous, differences
abound.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: BAtman returns
Reply-To: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:10:29 GMT

There was a recent item in the NY TImes, Reprinted in the local
Jewish weekly, citing Batman Returns as being not very subtly
antisemitic.  The Pinguin is the archtype Jewish villlian, seeking to
kill the first born children of Gotham city.  Jewish sterotype
merchant cheating people with cheap Xmas trinkets....  etc... etc...
I have not yet seen the movie and was wondering if anyone on
SCJ had.  If so, did you see the allusions?  Are they real, or the
figments of demented students at Columbia (authors of article)?

Do contributors of SCJ go to movies like Batman Returns, 49 weeks of 
the year?

Did anyone else see the story?  Any reactions?  

I will be off net for a week, so I would appreciate replys via
Email.  Catching up on a week of SCJ may be moretime consuming than
I can afford.

Juilan Yudelson
jeybbu@ritvax.bitnet   or edunet
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:55:13 GMT

In article <92205.202418CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> RABBI CHARLES ARIAN <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> writes:

>
>I think the opposite is the case; if given a choice between day school
>or no Jewish education at all, most Jewish parents would, to my regret,
>choose no Jewish education at all.

To a great extent, choosing 3-5 hours per week, or just Sunday school,
is equivalent to choosing nothing at all.  At best, it delays full
assimilation by a generation.

The growth of the Solomon Schechter schools, and the gradual development
of Reform day schools is good; even if one doesn't advocate these
movements, graduates of their schools are likely to remain identified
as Jewish.  But the standard Hebrew \ Sunday school curriculum just
doesn;t do the job.

>Nevertheless, I am glad that the Reform movement exists because it serves
>exactly the role that Larry, who started this thread, ascribed to it.
>Through the Reform movement I was made aware of my Jewish identity, given
>an opportunity to learn and experience, until I eventually "outgrew"
>my Reform roots.

But weren't you the exception?  How many third-generation Sunday
school kids can still be identified?  

>I can state as absolute fact that if given a choice between Orthodoxy and
>nothing my parents would have raised me with nothing.


And that would have been a tragic loss indeed.  Still, in the overall
scheme of things, I would guess that Jewish communal identity in
the US would have been stronger had Hebrew schools never gotten
started.

-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ward@sun18.vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward)
Subject: Re: abortion for Noachides
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:48:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.143450.7788@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>In article <2289@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>>Yesterday, I read a news story about how the US Customs confiscated
>>RU486 pills (a French pill that induces abortions).  Anyone care to
>>speculate if use of this pill might be halacially preferable to other
>>methods?  Would its use be subject to any penalty at all?  To tell
>>you the truth, I don't recall if killing a living person by poison is
>>a capital crime for either Jews or Bnei Noach, but in this case (I
>>think), the fetus isn't being poisoned, the mother's body is being
>>made to reject the fetus.  Perhaps this is sufficiently indirect that
>>it would not be subject to any penalty?
>
>There are several implications to this pill
>
>1.  The pill works by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting
>in th womb.

I think you are thinking of the "day after" pill, which can be used for
up to ~72 hours (I believe) and acts as described above.

>2.  This seems to imply that it MUST be used within the 40 day
>limit referred to earlier.

The quote I have read in the Globe and Mail is that it may be used for
up to nine weeks, which is 23 days beyond the limit.  (I believe the woman
in question is seven weeks pregnant)

Paul
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Looking for an apt in J'lem
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:00:33 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel


 In: <1992Jul28.105517.68701@cs.cmu.edu>
 clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) "asks":

>In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>
>   In article <1992Jul22.220540.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> taschr01@ulkyvx.louis
>   >
>   > I'm looking for an apartment in Gilo Bet in Jerusalem for mid sept to mid
>   > october for a couple.  If you know of any possbility, please respond to
>   > taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu or in J'lem call Lenn Schramm at 63 01 38
>   > during the day.
>
>   Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied
>   territories.
>
>What about the Mt. Scopus campus of Hebrew University?

Mt.  Scopus  was an  Israeli enclave  within Jordanian  held territory
during all  the period  of 1948-1967.   Contact to  it was  monthly by
sealed vehicles under UNO supervision.

>Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu

 Michael Shimshoni
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Discovery
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:08:46 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California

In article <2322@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>In <1992Jul24.214306.23065@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg ) writes:
>
>    Codes have been found which refer to the Holocaust, George Bush (no
>    kidding!) the Gulf War, the 39 Scud Missles and many other topics.
>    All of the codes which have been found have referred to actual
>    historical events.
>
>Harumph.  This is because that was all they were looking for.  Feed
>the computer lists of things that never happened, and I'm sure you'll
>find some of that, too.
>
> warren   

This suggestion was in fact proposed by one of the top statisticians
in the world, currently at Harvard University. Unfortunately for him,
(he has been trying unsuccessfully for years to discredit this analysis),
when they tried that, the results agreed exactly with what one
expected thru probability. When they searched for actual events,
the results were extremely significant statistically.

I am in posession of a formal mathematical paper, (I believe it has
been submitted for publication), outlining the details of this
experiment.

Hayim Hendeles
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:25:30 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.155110.4569@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger) writes:
>In article <2349@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>referring to "R":
>
>>I'm not aware of anything we O do (aside from
>>claiming that they are wrong) that they think is wrong).
>
>How about accepting as Jewish someone who has a Jewish mother
>but was raised non-Jewish? R holds that s/he is not Jewish,
>O holds that s/he is. 
   I don't think that Reform puts a maximum time limit on when
   "acts of identification with the Jewish people" can be performed.
   L'ma'aseh, Reform would consider such a person a "tinok shenishba"
   and would require them to be into their judaism before being
   considered Jewish. While according to Orthodoxy such a person would be
   Jewish, they wouldn't get a shidduch without an analogous getting
   into of Judaism. 

   While I'm here, the only reason that non-O conversions are an
   issue to the non-O is because of Israel's Law of Return and
   O control of marriage and divorce. The Law of Return should be
   self-explanatory. As for marriage, in terms of individuals,
   it only matters if the two people want to marry. The O person
   is free to have any criteria they like (there's that hat style
   again) and I doubt any R person would deny them this.

   cf. Ethiopians who consider each other Jewish but who cannot marry
   each other without undergoing conversion. Again, so that they
   will be available to the rest of Medinat/Am Yisrael. (Better, the
   15% who would care if the rabbinate weren't in control.) They
   bitterly resent it, but not because of the lack of warm fuzzies
   but because the state enforces the O view.
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orhodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:45:12 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) said:
>> If the official Reform position is that Halakha (Torah, Talmud, etc.)
>> is not binding on all Jews...

>I don't think Reform says "all Jews". The movement can only address Reform
>Jews.

If they claim there are some Jews on whom Halakha is not binding, then
they are saying it is not binding on all Jews.

Are you saying that Reform claims that Halakha IS binding on some Jews?
I realize you said that Reform can only address Reform Jews, but that
leaves open the possibility that some Jews may, in fact, be obligated.
Rather, IMHO, it seems that what they are saying is that Halakha is not
binding (by anything other than personal choice or membership in another
organization) on ANY Jews.  Again, anyone may choose to deport him/herself
as he/she sees fit, but no need to feel obligated.

-Don Gertler
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:19:23 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

es = shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
ds = dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)

es: What are the costs and probabilities
es: of either type of error?

ds: Nobody knows!  You're claiming that a day school education is more
ds: likely to lead to continued Jewish identity.  Maybe that's true, and
ds: maybe not.  What we need is hard evidence before we can talk about it
ds: intelligently.

es: Yeah, but we (you, me, all of us) have to decide _now_ about
es: our kids' educations, and we can't wait for the definitive double-
es: blind controlled experiments to provide definitive answers.  We gotta
es: decide now, and take our best shot.  

Yes, and each of us *does* get to decide about our *own* kids'
education.  We don't get to decide about other peoples'.  If you want
to encourage them to send them to day school, I'm with you.  If you
want to close a Hebrew School for any reason other than no one goes
there since they're all in day school, expect no quarter.  Not even a
dime.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange theft.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not concerned at all.
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Meat on the first 10 days of Av.
Date: 28 Jul 92 03:22:39 GMT
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

Is sausage prepared in part from cow's udders fleischig, milchig, or
neither?

--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish