HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:04:58 GMT

In article <1h2t05INNs1p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>John Elghani writes...
>
>
>#If Syria occupied Tel Aviv, and this soldier happned to be a syrian
>#kidnapped by jews asking  for the release of Shamir, then executed,  
>#you woldn't have a problem with that, right?  ADMIT IT.
>#
>#jle
>
>
>    I admit no such thing.  And your suggesting that I might ever
>    tolerate such an act, let alone support it, is the reverse of
>    the truth.
>
>    That would be murder.  Period.  And it was murder in the case
>    of Toledano.  Such deaths cannot be justified.  Take the case

OK thank for your response.  But, how do you suggest Tel Aviv then
should be liberated from the syrians if the syrians are
not interested in peace?

>    of Sheik Obied(please forgive my possible misspelling).   The
>    Israelis are responsible for his total well-being.  If he was
>    killed while in custody, that would be murder.  I am a person
>    of principle.  While I worry about the safety and security of
>    Israel, I do not sanction murder.  And while I think that the
>    Sheik is nothing but a fundamentalist homicidal phony, hiding
>    in cleric's robes, there is no justification for murdering an
>    individual while in custody.  Toledano was murdered.  And the
>    deportees are sworn to commit such acts themselves.   Members
>    of HAMAS have taken an oath to kill Jews.  
>    
>    As stated in HAMAS pamphlet no. 65, distributed in October of 
>    1990, 
>    
>           "Every Jewish settler is an occupier, 
>            and it is our obligation to kill him."
>
>
>
>
>
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:57:09 GMT

In article <1h0oifINNkgu@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>The United Nations condemned Israeli expulsion of Palestinians from
>>the Occupied Territories.
>>My question...why did the UN not condemn the acts of terrorism
>>which *led* to the expulsions?
>>
>>Can anyone (pro or anti -Israel) answer this?
>
>    IMHO, there is no way to answer your question.  There doesn't
>    seem to be any sort of underlying principle to decisions made
>    by the UN.  This is the same organization which asserted that
>    Zionism is racism.  It is also the same organization which is
>    blind to the racism of organizations whose members take oaths
>    to kill all Jews.

Indeed, this is the same organization (UN) that gave the land Palestine
to European thieves, then the Yemenese, Morocon, ..etc. followed in the
theft.  Also it is the same organization that ordered the slaughter
of 1/2 million iraqi innocents and decided to keep Saddam in office,
and continues to kill thousands of iraqi children daily from hunger 
due to the imbargo.  Acts of UN you are happy and flattered about.

jle

>
>    In case you had not noticed, there has been an outcry against
>    the deportations, but the world has remained silent about the
>    murders that led up to it.  
>
>    Furthermore, the reception given to the deportees was not the
>    most cordial.  Their Arab brothers in Lebanon would not admit
>    them to Lebanon.  They chose to leave their Arab brothers out
>    in the cold.  What has the world said about that? 
>
>    Even the Arab delegates to the peace talks said nothing about
>    the murders that have taken place over the last few weeks.  
>
>    I tried to imagine Toledano's murder turned around.  A Jewish
>    terrorist group kidnaps some innocent Arab.  They proclaim it
>    to have been an act protesting the holding of Ron Arad.  They
>    say that they will kill the Arab if Ron Arad is not released.
>    The deadline for Arad's release passes and, within hours, the
>    innocent Arab is found on the side of the road, tossed out of
>    a moving car as if he was a bag of garbage.  His dead body is
>    found bound from head to toe.  He had been tied up and knifed 
>    over and over, until he was dead.  
>
>    Do you think the world would be upset with such a treacherous 
>    and sadistic murder?
>
>
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Jihad
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:56:11 GMT

In article <42724@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
><nabeel.724715036@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo):
>
>Jihad is waged upon them if the Islamic spread was obstructed by them, e.g. if
>Muslims were expanding and wanted that island to surrender to Islamic rule
>(different than embracing Islam) and they refused to embrace Islam, pay tax
>(tribute), then there is only war.

Not true.  The first Jihad ever (battle wise) was when Mohammad PBUH 
was attacked by his enemy because he was spreading Islam among the people
of Mecca and the people in charge didn't like it.

jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:25:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.013422.2042@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:

>Because HAMAS is telling its people that they are justified by Islam
>to do what they are doing.  It is a terrible thing to mislead people 
>religiously, especially when you are asking them to take blood onto 
>their hands.  

  Sure, but Hamas is not misleading people. They _are_ justified to do what
they are doing. This is armed resistance against an oppressor. And a successful
one at that.

>The origin of this thread discussed whether or not Islam had a special
>attitude toward the aggressive destruction of Jews.  Ilyess made a point
>that it does not, that one cannot kill someone who has been disarmed
>for example.  But the HAMAS has just executed a Jew with his hands tied.

  Hamas killed an Israeli soldier. A person whose job it is to further
murder and oppression.

>I am willing to listen to Ilyess' explanation.  In my opinion, HAMAS operates
>outside the Sharia.

  So you want to teach us our religion now?

  Hamas is a very successful resistance movement and Israel is unable to deal
with it, so it is asking Muslims to condemn it. They tried the same method
with the intifadah and they failed.


Mazen Mokhtar
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malcom X
Date: 14 Dec 92 02:26:27 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec13.161648.7275@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>Hindus in India destroyed a mosque, Muslims "retaliated" by destroyng
>11 Hindu temples, and 700 people died.

And almost the same number died when the radical hindus attacked the
Babri Masjid in the first place.

>I'm not sure how relevant this is to the middle East, except to show
>us what happens when religious fanatics start attacking each other.

If you knew how much hatred that Hindus have against Muslims you would
not have made such an ignorant remark.  The destruction of the masjid
sparked the violence - Muslims do not attack anyone unless they are
provoked in THE FIRST PLACE!  But yes, the fanatics are the hindus -
the same ones who vow not to cut their long hair (kept under their
turbans) until the last Muslim on earth is dead.

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Goof)
Subject: Re: Antisemitism
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 07:37:20 GMT


><Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>
>>Nor if Israel increasingly becomes a Jewish theocratic
>>state does it have much ground to stand on in objecting to the
>>U.S. becoming a Christian theocratic state.
>

	1. When did Israel object to the US becoming a Christian
	theocratic state?
	2. If Israel is a Jewish threocratic state, then why are there
	non-Jews in the government.
	3. If the US does become a Christian Theocratic state, doesn't
	that violate the Constitution's separation of church and state?


	geoff
-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

A .sig?  A .sig? We don't need no stinkin' .sigs!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Pollard & Neo-Nazis
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:29:37 GMT

In article <Bz5HIy.8rM@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>If Israel pressures Arabs to leave Israel, it can hardly object
>to France pressuring Arabs to leave France--or Jews for that

Israel has not pressured Arabs to leave, as you mistakenly claim
people like Netanyahu have.  He has called for deportation of
criminals.  Le Pen calls for all arabs tobe kicked out of France.
When Kahane made equivilent statements, he was banned from the
Kenneset, and his party was declared illegal.

>matter. Nor if Israel increasingly becomes a Jewish theocratic
>state does it have much ground to stand on in objecting to the
>U.S. becoming a Christian theocratic state.

Nonsense.  Israel does not have any equivilent of the first Ammendment
(Congress shall make no law respecting an estalishment of religion or
prohibiting the free exsecise thereof)  If Israel's democraticly
elected parliment chooses to make laws restricting religious freedom,
that is legal and fair under Israeli law.  I always thought legality
was a pretty fair ground to stand on when criticising someone.

>Israel and Israeli supporters seem so mixed up these
>days--they've got to try to get their story straight. I can
>understand their Swaggart-like need to seize upon any diversions
>they can find.

You complained about Mark Ira Kaufmans ad hominums.  Shouldn't you try
to live up to the standards you set?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones in this
weather.  You'd freeze to death pretty quick. ;)

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
QUIT
l because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 05:50:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.030013.5891@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>In article <1992Dec19.080927.0106556@locus.com>, jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>|> Below is a description of the HUMANITARIAN and PEACFULL acts of the
>|> HUMANITARIAN and PEACE LOVING state of Israel.
>
>Did you forget to mention that the reason that Israel was forced into
>taking these actions was because these are the very SAME people who
>lead that wonderful group of "freedom fighters" called Hamas, which

No I didn't forget.  The reason being: BRUTAL OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE
BY TERRORISTS led to the people to fight back, and in return
the terrorist acted as usual : torutre, killing, or expulsion.

>has made a recent hobby of killing innocent, bound and gagged Israeli

5 israeli soldiers occupying others land cannot be innocents.

If the Iraqi Army occupied Tel Aviv, and the Tel-Avivians killed
5 Iraqi soldiers, you'd be happy, right?  ADMIT.

>officers. If you would notice, Israel has neither killed nor harmed
>any one (despite the unfortunate shooting incident). Looks to me that
>Israel has acted in an extra-ordinarily humanitarian way, given what
>the circumstances of the situation were, I wonder how reasonable the
>US would be if an American soldier was found executed by Hamas - not
>as understanding as Israel I would imagine.
>
>Israel has a priority to ensure the safety of her citizens. How would

How can you ensure safty by occupation of others land.  If the
army were to leave the territories , then those 5 probably would be
on the beach sun bathing instead of burried.

>you propose Israel deal with the Hamas attrocities?

Leave them lone, don't occupy their land, torture children, and rape 
their dignity, and kill innocents.

>Harry.

jle
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Pollard & Neo-Nazis
Date: 12 Dec 92 11:40:16 GMT

<Bz4JrA.855@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>If Israel applies various devices to drive
>non-Jews out of Israel, how could it possibly complain if other
>nations in the world applied various devices to drive Jews from
>their midst?


	If a person posts thinly-veiled antisemitic innuendo, how
        could that person possibly complain about racism of others?


-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: zionist hypocrisy
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Distribution: talk
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:29:26 GMT

"wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>By Israel's enlightened values does throwing stones merit
>deportation? Death by summary execution in the streets? Israel is
>"a light unto the nations"? Jimmy Swaggart here we come....

By Mcguire's "enlightened values" does stabbing women and children in
the back, murdering policemen, and throwing molotov cocktails at
school busses merit a commendation?

>You profoundly the miss the point. The issue here is the
>hypocrisy of American Zionists on the one hand suppressing with
>all their might any manifestations of Christianity in the
>American government, while at the same time passionately
>demanding American taxpayer support for a nation, Israel,
>suffused with Orthodox Jewish theocratic influence.


 The kicker
>here is that American support is supposedly justified on the
>grounds that Israel shares America's democratic values. A
>keystone of American democratic values is the separation of
>church and state.

>This is Israel's main problem these days: Israel and its
>supporters increasingly look ridiculous. The more they talk to
>try to rationalize themselves, the more ridiculous they look.
>Many bright and thoughtful Jews will know precisely what I am
>talking about.

McGuire completely misses the meaning of both countries.  We are
different from almost all other nations in our diversity, and our
constitutionally mandated equality of all citizens and separation of
church and state.  We claim specifically not to be a sanctuary for any
particular group.  For us to sanction things like religion in the
schools is to make a mockery of our basic laws.  Israel, on the other
hand, while mandating equality of all citizens, was also reestablished
as a sanctuary for a specific people.  (Ironically, the percentage of
non-Jews in Israel keeps rising, both from natural population growth
and immigration, as Arabs seem, despite their rhetoric, to find Israel
a better place for them to live than the surrounding Arab countries.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: deporting "agitators"
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:56:47 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Adam Shostack

Perhaps you could clarify: are we to understand that you agree
with Netanyahu's sentiments on deporting Palestinians, expressed
below?

A few of my questions have gone unanswered: what charges,
precisely, were brought against these many hundreds of
Palestinians? What sort of due process did they enjoy?

Has Netanyahu ever called for deporting Jewish terrorists from
Israel? If not, why not, since he is fond of using deportation as
an instrument of law and order?

Why haven't American television interviewers like Larry King and
Ted Koppel made a significant issue of Netanyahu's views on
deportation? Why are they protecting him? Why in particular
aren't they curious about why he has advocated the deportation of
Arabs but not Jews?

Should the Western world begin deporting Zionist "agitators" from
its midst, or is deportation only a policy suitable for the
chosen nation, Israel?

From the Jewish Advocate (previously cited):

     According to the recording, Netanyahu told the students that
     the government had failed to exploit politically favorable
     situations to carry out "large-scale" expulsions at times
     when "the [political] damage [to Israel] would have been
     relatively small."
 
     He added, "I still believe that there are opportunities to
     expel many people."
 
     Arad said the deputy minister was referring to his
     recommendation that nine Palestinians slated for deportation
     by the Defense Ministry should have been expelled while the
     world's attention was on the troubles in China last spring.
 
     But the tape has him stating, "five, 50 or 500" agitators
     should have been expelled at various times since the
     intifada began two years ago.
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  History is the autobiography of a madman.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo)
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:39:40 GMT

In <1992Dec17.225055.27930@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

" That is precisely what people have been saying all along.  If Muslims
" want to do something their way, they shouldn't push these values on
" non-believers, especially not onto non-Muslims.  But they do, anyways.
" As a matter of religious principle, yet!

   You answered yourself.

" >   If you keep this closed minded bigoted attitude you won't be able to 
" >appreciate what religions are all about, probably Judaism thinks that the ugly
" >and some kinds of people are unclean.  We do not. 

" Judaism does no such thing.  Perhaps you should read the Hadith on

   You may want to read into Leviticus ch:13-15 for the first 
time in your life.

" what Islam says about Jews, though.

   Yeah? What?

" >   Jihad is self defense 

" Yeah, like all of PLO terrorism against athletes and tourists is
" really self-defense.  Self-delusionary is more like it.

   Why do you think it is terrorism while Israel is a very peaceful
cute little state?

             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
   \_\  --/ _/                      
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: zionist hypocrisy
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:08:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.1777.21033@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Adam Shostack

> AS> [Netanyahu] has called for deportation of criminals.  Le Pen
> AS> calls for all arabs tobe kicked out of France. When Kahane
> AS> made equivilent statements, he was banned from the Kenneset,
> AS> and his party was declared illegal.

>Criminals? Netanyahu, the current fair-haired boy of Likud,
>called for the deportation of Palestinians on the West Bank in
>groups of as many as 500, at "various" times. That probably
>amounts to thousands of Palestinians.

Probably?  As many as?  A few days ago, you were claiming that
Netanyahu was as bad, or worse than, Le Pen or Duke.

My reading of Netanyahus proposals was that he wanted to expel a few
hundered violent agitators, not thousands in a mass expultion.

>Kahane was banned from the Knesset because he became a global
>public relations embarrassment, but Raveham Ze'evi, the head of
>Moledet, served as a high official in Yitzhak Shamir's

No, Kahane was barred because he was a racist.

>This is Israel's main problem these days: Israel and its
>supporters increasingly look ridiculous. The more they talk to
>try to rationalize themselves, the more ridiculous they look.
>Many bright and thoughtful Jews will know precisely what I am
>talking about.

And you complain about ad hominum attacks?  



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The Chairman Defines Foreign Policy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:08:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.190329.14069@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:

Previous poster quotes:

>>Today's YEDIOT AHRONOT quotes the Italian newspaper "Il-Jiornale"
>>which published an interview yesterday with Syrian Deputy President
>>Abdel Halim Hadam, the man considered "number two" in Syria. Hadam
>>said in the interview that he is convinced that PLO Chief Yasser
>>Arafat has lost his sanity. "I have the impression, that following
>>the plane accident, Arafat lost his sanity..." Hadam said that
>>Arafat's claim that parts of the Golan Heights belong to the
>>Palestinians constitutes the final proof of his madness.

>So this is the kind of foreign policy exercise that we can
>expect from a Palestinian State?  Terrific.  How long would it
>be before a Palestinian State would be intriguing against the
>Hashemite regime?  Playing off Riyadh against Amman for aid?
>Etc. etc. etc.
>
>This is why U.S. policy, sanctioned by the State Department
>and Congress, opposes the creation of a Palestinian State.

Tiring of the Palestinean Arab violence in Israel, I once suggested to
a friend that we cut them loose into their own state fully in
accordance with their wishes, at which time they would kill themselves
off.  He responded that Syria would probably step in, claiming that it
was "invited" to keep the peace, erasing any new Palestinean state.  

Reasonable observers of recent history will find numerous, violent and
long-standing territorial disputes among Arabs which bode very poorly
for any new "Palestinean" state.  If the "Palestineans" don't manage
to destroy themselves very quickly, some of their Arab brothers will.
Perhaps the Peace Now movement and it's campaign to yield territory to 
the Arabs is really a Mossad plot to get Arabs to kill Arabs...  Yeah,
that's the ticket.  The Jews made us do it...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: News from the Israeli press
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:39:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.172509.14636@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>not to educate them in their people's heritage, just as, say, Mexican-
>Americans do their children a disservice if they don't teach them of
>their history, culture, and the like.

But I never heard a Mexican-American saying that Mexican-Americans should
only marry other Mexican-Americnas.


>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder

AAP
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast