From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:29 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA


In article <1992Aug11.085941.3245@nntp.hut.fi> r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava) writes:
#In article <1992Aug9.104019.25582@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#
##BTW, nothing to do with anything: How does 20 ga recoil compare with
##that of an SKS 7.62x39?   Which would be bettter for self defense?

I have a 20ga that I find 'easy' to shoot.  I don't like recoil (but
I do weigh a smidge under 200 lbs...) and find .45 pistols anoying.
The 20 ga isn't as light as a .22, but it is easy to get used to.

#Shotguns give quite a kick,
#even 20 ga. Of course the recoil of a shotgun depends heavily on the
#shell, 

Which would be a major feature in this case.  Use a readily available
light load if the heavy loads are too much...  This option isn't
readily available in semi-automatic military derived guns.

#but I suppose you want some serious power for defense purposes.

Never underestimate the effect of a 'dove & target' load ...  and
it won't over penetrate ...

IMHO, I'd go for a 12ga with light load shells rather than a 20 ga
with magnums...  I can't tell much difference between the 12 and 20 with
'dove' loads, but can tell a big difference between 20 ga 'dove' loads
and 20 ga 3" Magnums...

Two other comments:  It IS possible to get 9mm 'subsonic' loads to 
cut recoil even more (though it shouldn't be needed and might not
function well in all semi-auto guns...)  A .22, like the Ruger 10/22,
with a couple of 50 rd. magazines can be rather effective against
someone who has no body armour.  I have some vague memory of a story
that claimed the favored assasins weapon for Masad? was the 22LR pistol.
When 10 .22 LR rounds hit the target, they were substantially guaranteed
to bleed to death.

The problem with this is that your attacker may take some time to 
bleed, and do you in while you wait...

Me?  I'd go for the shotgun or a Marlin (either the 9mm auto, or the
Lever action in .357/38 spl) and when the friend CAN get a handgun, 
he would be already set up for 9mm or .357/38spl.

The .357 (I think it is a model 1894c?) with 10 rds in it is easy
to shoot, easy to handle, makes a decent club, has very low recoil,
can handle anything from 38 target rounds weaker than a .22 LR
on up to 'HOT' .357s (which are somewhere near 1000 ft/lbs from 
the rifle, I *think*)  If 10 rds of that (plus what you can feed
in the loading port) don't stop the guy, you need serious help...

You can incrementally feed more rounds into the lever gun in case 
of a sustained fire-fight ... no need to stop to re-fill magazines 
(this is slower for the first magazine worth or two, but once your 
magazines are empty, the lever gun is quicker to reload than the 
magazines of the semi-auto)... 

The key missing piece:  Is the friend 'good' with guns?  A lever gun
is conceptually simpler for a relative novice.  (no 'safety', the 
hammer is an obvious indicator of readyness to fire, the operation
is relatively clear, as is loading, etc.)  If the guy knows 
guns, the semi-auto offers faster rounds/minute and more  rounds/reload
with (initial!) faster reload from a magazine swap;  but it is 
conceptually more complicated and not clear cut to a novice.  (There
IS a safety that has to be delt with, which MAY look like the magazine
release ... and could be a lethal error {I've dumped a magazine on
the floor just last week on a foreign gun, and I've got years of
experience}, it isn't obvious when it is 'cocked and loaded', etc.

I'd suggest that knowing what he is good with is more important
than owning the 'best' gun that he cannot use...
-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.