From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: Is it Christian values or chavinism?
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:52:41 GMT

In <10880@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:

>In article <nyikos.717627005@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>In <1992Sep25.211600.23804@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>><1992Sep18.233054.14674@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) said:
>>>>From article by iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski):
>>>>> I don't think I'm the only one here (I'm posting from alt.atheism) who
>>>>> is tired of this talk about the "agony", "suffering", and "death" of
>>>>> Jesus from Nazareth.  (Yes, I mean all those quotation marks).
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Rightly so.  Go ahead, prove that he suffered.  Only be sure to make
>>>>> it quite clear that he didn't just fake suffering (for whatever purpose).
>>>>
>>>>Oh, yeah, you mean like the way unborn babies "fake" their suffering when
>>>>they are ripped limb from limb via abortion.

>No, I don't mean like that way.  I don't think unborn babies scream or
>wringle when ripped limb by limb, so they don't show suffering, fake
>or genuine. 

"Wringle"? do you mean "wriggle," by any chance?

"...the hub of the needle in the woman's belly has jerked.  First to
one side. Then to the other side. Once more it wiggles, is *tugged*,
like a fishing line nibbled by a sunfish.  It is the fetus that 
worries thus."  --R. Selzer, "What I saw in Abortion."

A far more graphic account of the struggle of a fetus as a result
of a saline abortion can be found in a recent post of mine:

[From THE SUFFERING OF SOME UNBORN AND THEIR MOTHERS Case 1]

	After the (amniotic) fluid was withdrawn, he injected 200 cc's of the
saline solution--half a pint of concentrated salt solution.  From then
on it was terrible.  My baby began thrashing about--it was like a 
regular boxing match in there.  She was in pain.  The saline was burning
her skin, her eyes, her throat.  It was choking her, making her sick.
She was in agony trying to escape.  She was scared and confused at how her
wonderful little home had suddenly been turned into a death trap.

	For some reason it had never entered my mind that with an abortion
she would have to die.  I had never wanted my baby to die; I only wanted
to get rid of my "problem". But it was too late to turn back now.  There
was no way to save her.  So instead I talked to her.  I tried to comfort
her.  I tried to ease her pain.  I told her I didn't want to do this to
her, but it was too late to stop it.  I didn't want her to die.  I 
begged her not to die.  I told her I was sorry, to forgive me, that I
was wrong, that I didn't want to kill her.

	For two hours I could feel her struggling inside me.  But then,
as suddenly as it began, she stopped.  Even today, I remember her very
last kick on my left side.  She had no strength left.  She gave up and
died. Despite my grief and guilt, I was relieved that her pain was 
finally over.  But I was never the same again.  The abortion killed not
only my daughter; it killed a part of me.

[End of excerpt.]

>On the other hand, we are told that Jesus of Nazareth was conceived in
>a very particular way, in accordance with none other than God's
>ingenious plan, and so on, and just why am I wrong to suppose that God
>didn't decide to make him so that he wouldn't feel pain?  It is just a
>matter of a few nerve fibres leading from the limbs to the brain.

Maybe so, but the bible gives no indication of it.

Here for once we have an *atheist* appearing to act in violation of
Occam's Razor.

Peter Nyikos