HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Subject: Re: period heraldric recreation
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:28:16 GMT


In a previous article, Layamon le Vavasour wrote:

>    I do have one reservation. Since the mountain in question [Mt. St.
>Hellandgone] is
>located in southern an tir, the logistics of travelling so far may
>be somewhat daunting. The heralds may also have difficulty seeing
>the battle.
>   Am I right, or should I have my cartographer clapped in irons?

I'm afraid that this is another case of inter-kingdom anthropology.

The mount in question is the small hillock overlooking the field used for
the last few Pennsic field battles.  To most Midrealmers, it's referred
to as "Eislinn's Hill", named after good Queen Eislinn of beloved
memory.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
Barony of Shattered Crystal, Midrealm
From: prosser@elux3.cs.umass.edu (DANIEL PROSSER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:58:16 GMT
Reply-To: prosser@elux3.cs.umass.edu (DANIEL PROSSER)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst


	Conerning the pentacle as a non-Pagan symbol:
		I have seen it in a source I believe to be period, an 
obscure book on Quaballah (sp?) called _The Sacred Book of Abra-Melin the 
Mage_.  (I forget the exact date; if there is enough interest, I'll try
and find it).

	In it, the pentacle is referred to as "the seal of Solomon".  Of 
course, since the study of this subject was only open to Jewish men over 
the age of 40,  does this mean I can address everyone wearing a pentacle as
"Honourable lord"?	{I doubt it <-:}

				Marius, called `dylyn' in cyberspace
__________________________________________________________________

"One -- you lock the target,	   Two -- you bait the line,
   Three-- you slowly spread the net,     and Four -- you catch the man"
			<<Front242, 'Headhunter'>>
_______________dylyn, at:  prosser@elux3.cs.umass.edu_________________
From: jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Non-flash photography at events
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:46:46 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center



A friend at my former shire (Seren Castel) had a solution to the problem
of photographing without flash.  She used a very fast color film, a very
open F-stop, and a very slow shutter.  She also did a lot of well-supported
photography.  Free-handing it becomes tricky when you do all this.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:59:22 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <d8dmgzm@lynx.unm.edu> evilted@vesta.unm.edu (Evilted) writes:

>What I have found is
>that 'of' was not used, but it is often the only way to translate names
>correctly. From the only reference I have handy:(Old Celtic Romances--
>P.W. Joyce, 1962)

Of course "of" was not used in Celtic -- it's an English word.  If 
you mean that it was never used in English, you are wrong.  Consider
John of Gaunt or Robert Earl of Huntingdon, for example.


>Dierdre Duibhshleibhe -- Dierdre of the Black Mountain
>Curnan Onmit -- Curnan the Simpleton

>There are more, but these will do. Are these names 'twinkie' in their
>English translation but not in the original?

Perhaps you meant to type something else, but your second example
does not even use the word "of."  Your first example uses it with
a place name, which is okay by Tadhg's rule.  

-- Nicholas van Leyden




From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: a paper Rialto?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:31:00

Pavel wrote...
>A friend told me there is a paper version of the Rialto out of the
>Outlands. Hve any of you heard about this?

ThinkWell is probably what they were talking about.  It isn't
really a paper version of the rialto, but an irregularly published
newsletter which contains philosophy, etc. similar to that found on
the Rialto.  Highly recommended.

Hmmm.  I'm not a subscriber, but I should have some old copies here
with the address.  However, I looked for them and can't find them
now.  I'll try to find them if I don't see the address posted here
soon.  <hint hint>

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cops and weapons
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:22:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712101755.F00007

Ya>  From: lawbkwn@buacca.BITNET (Yaakov)
Ya>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Ya>
Ya>  The good Moreach Nicmaolin, who
Ya>  knows many friendly constables, posts
Ya>  that we should "show off our toys with
Ya>  pride and explain them 'til their eyes glaze

Indeed milord, I made an error. I did not make it clear enough that I was 
speaking about cops who show up at *demos* and other open, public events.

There is no point in borrowing trouble by letting *anyone* see that you have 
a trunk full of weapons that they might not understand, much less someone 
specifically empowered to trouble you about it!  :-)

But it is not a good idea, when they already see them, to act vaguely 
guilty. This sets off the police alarm response automatically!

(If I had acted worried that the State Trooper accidentally saw the dagger, 
the best I could hope for would be losing a hand-made dagger I had spent 
hours on as a gift, and had borrowed back for the event...)

Moreach
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Music in plays/the name Casilda
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:13:52 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

There is a CD called "Songs from Shakespeare" (probably
also available on cassette) that claims to have the
original music to all of Shakespeare's songs.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
Organization: Comp & Comm - Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:26:40 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Pennsic tip
	<BruLwn.59G@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 23-Jul-92 Re: Another Pennsic tip Ian
"Rhys" Klinck@cayley (275)

> >Teens drinking is *illegal*.

> That depends on your local law, and what end of the 'teens we're talking about.
> In Ontario, drinking age is 19; in some provinces it's 18.

In the state of Pennsylvania, legal drinking age is 21.  In this state,
anyone who sells or supplies alcohol to anyone under 21 can be charged
with a crime in this state, or and anyone who allows it to be consumed
on their property (i.e. has knowledge of the act, but does not prevent
it) can be sued (and possibly charged with a crime).  The under-21
drinker can, of course, get into a load of trouble, too, (though I'm not
sure about criminal charges), including losing their drivers license
until they are 21.

So to be Pennsic specific:  If you're under 21, don't drink.  If you're
over 21, don't sell or give alchohol to anyone under 21.  No matter what
age you are, don't let people under 21 drink in your camp.

toodles, margaret


From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 12:22:54

    Haj Hossein wrote:

    =Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send
    =greetings and prayers for the blessings of Allah, especially unto Tadhg
    =and Godfrey.

    =>> If you bothered
    =>> to look into the subject (heavens, what a thought)
    =>
    => Ah, you're doing MORE than insinuating.  You're being BLATANTLY
    => insulting.

    =Indeed, he is.  It's one of his more charming and engaging attributes
    =-- you know, one of the reasons why debates at Oxford and Cambridge are
    =vastly more fun than the bland sorts of things they call "debates" in
    =the U.S.  I, personally, _love_ a good argument with Tadhg.

 Now, wait a minute ... I was being sarcastic, admittedly - what I *knew*
 about the subject didn't match what he *said* about the subject, so I
 naturally assumed that he hadn't looked into it, in which he matches far
 too many "instant experts", both here and in the SCA generally (either that
 or he was deliberately lying to us) - but "blatantly insulting" I was not.
 (Hey, if it's blatantly insulting you want, I can do that...)

 [FYI, Haj Hossein, I spent four years in the Yale Political Union, which
 is modelled (and has reciprocal membership rights with) the Oxford and
 Cambridge Unions. You're right, the quality difference is astonishing.]

    =>> you would find that
    =>> "hordes" were named after colors, not metals.
    =>
    =>Can you quote some sources for this statement, please?

    =Sorry, gentlemen, you're both wrong on this one.  _Orduha_ were named
    =after the commanders, not after metals or colors (with one exception,
    =but his name was appended to the "golden" descriptor).  "Horde" is the
    =English borrow-form of the Persian word _ordu_, which means "army" or
    ="military encampment."  The word was borrowed from Persian into Uighur
    =(the predominant written language of the Mongols) in the 13th century,
    =and from Persian into English in the 18th century (it's what Moghul
    =emperors called their armies in India, the commanders of which were
    =largely Persian mercenaries).

 I guess I was extrapolating from an insufficiently large sample. *sigh*
 Ah, well, we live and learn....

    Tadhg


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: No Landedness
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:55:37 GMT
Organization: Old grump

In article <711589773.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> "*Medina*-Sidonia". (I know ... I'm a snot....)

	Yah, I know -- no offense taken, though -- it has been a number
of years since I saw that title spelt, and I have never seen the Howards'
titles in print, so what I heard was ...Norfolk...Suffolk...

	I stand corrected.

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: More Murphy's Laws of Combat.
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:23:06 GMT

In article <Brsrrp.H59@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>In article <2108@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt) writes:

>>Having missle fire of any sort in the battles makes a world of difference.
>>I beleive it to be positive.

>>John Theophilous

>       No archery without cavalry!

>       Cpt. James Routledge

>Aryk Nusbacher

If you don't like archers, you'd HATE mounted archers.  Ranged attacks AND 
mobility.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: a paper Rialto?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:35:51 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Pavel wrote:

> A friend told me there is a paper version of the Rialto out of the
> Outlands. Hve any of you heard about this?

You probably heard about Thinkwell, a newsletter for the discussion of the
SCA run by Mistress Aelflaed of Duckford.  It has nothing to do with the
Rialto, though there is some overlap in participation.

> Also the same friend told me that the BOD is getting ready to make
> some annoumcement about Master at Arms. Again anyone heard anything?

This may be the most twisted account of the Board's actions that I've heard
in a long time.  (For which I don't blame you at all; it is normal
by-product of word-of-mouth communication.)  The germ of this rumor may
have been the Board's call for discussion on a proposal to change the
titles used by the peerage orders, which was discussed here at great length
and which was published in TI.  The Board has called for comments by the
end of this year.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 12:43:54 -0400 
From: "Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz" <ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Understanding (was Basic Courtesy)

Greetings to all, but most especially to Stephen.

After reading the varied responses to this subject, I've realised that I
let my anger over a posting get the best of me.

I wish to publicly apologise to Stephen for how harsh I was. I also 
want to say that I was not trying to say he was dishonorable in any 
way. Rereading what I wrote, it certainly sounded that way.

I'd like to do a re-examination of this issue, with your (the Rialto's)
indulgence.

Stephen commented on Christian's self-proclaimed filk as something that
does not belong in the SCA. Personally, I agree with Stephen somewhat.
(I hope that came out in my previous post.) I disagree'd with the way
he did it. And inadvertantly, was less kind to him than he was to Christian.
Also, I beleive that I misunderstood his intent. All I heard was a put
down. From a piece of e-mail I received from him, I now feel that what
he was trying to do was make a general comment about filk in the SCA.

Bertram saw things in a similar light to mine. And he calls out to the
Rialto, asking questions. I saw this as an effort to find answers; to
bring more courtesy to this forum; and definitely not intended to be
discourteous to Stephen.

Definitely part of the problem here is only having words to convey
what we mean. Hossein knows Stephen. Therefore he heard his words as
much gentler and more literally. I know Bertram, and his quest for 
knowledge, and his courtesy.

Hossein responds to Bertram. What I heard, (and please correct me
as to your intent, because at this point, I can only think that I
misinterpreted) is that discourtesy, and hurting others is o.k. if
you are saying the truth. That saying your peace and trying to spare
others feelings a little is not just possible.

It was this that I was railing against so strongly. I beleive it is
possible to state an opinion, or give constructive critisism without
it coming across as attacking the individual.

Many people are argueing that posting filks or singing them at post-revels
are fine, and that the post shouldn't have been admonished. I agree. But
I also now think, that that was not Stephen's intent. He was talking about
filk in the SCA, rather than outside of it.

I agree with Angharad that this was probably poorly stated. 

Graydon says we're arguing axioms. If we are, it's not just about music.
It's also about courtesy. I'm not sure I agree with Angharad's classi-
fication of 'garden-variety' Easterners, and 'shovel' mid-Westerners.
However, there does seem to be a basic misunderstanding of what people 
are trying to say from time to time. And if this analogy, helps any of
us with not trying to read intent, but rather to listen to the words 
more closely, then it matters not whether the analogy is wholly accurate.
It might be useful, and that can be enough.

Su segura servidora,
     Esmeralda la Sabia            
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: MCKAY_MICHAEL@tandem.COM
Subject: Request for Antir Info
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 20:06:00 GMT

I would like event information for southern Antir (Spokane Washington down to
Ashland Oregon) for the middle of August (8/8 - 8/23).  Thanks for your help.

Sean MacKay (aka. MCKAY_MICHAEL@tandem.com)  Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Photos and events
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:01:41 GMT

In article <59148@mimsy.umd.edu> kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) writes:
>I would like to strongly caution people against hasty judgement
>of fights on videotape.  Note the dissension in the NFL about
>instant-replay and referee's calls.  It is true that video may
>capture and immortalize a flagrant miscall of a blow.  It is
>also possible that the limitations of the medium will make a
>blow apparently be a flagrant miscall when in fact nothing of
>the sort occurs.  I have seen many of my fights in Crowns on
>tape, and I have seen cases where my opponent seemed to be
>ignoring a good blow when I know for certain that I had not hit
>him.  

There are still some handy uses.  Some years ago (don't ask how many . . .)
There was a problem of a particular fighter getting hit on the
knee--despite having what was believed to be good armor there.  No one
was able to spot the problem.  I filmed (this is pre-camcorder, folks)
the fighter paying particular attention to his knees.  On the film,
the problem was clear, the armor was 'flapping' and exposing the
knees.  *No*one (including the marshalls) had spotted this.  Granted,
I filmed it at 64 fps and projected it at 16, but a frame-by-frame
examination would have worked as well.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: Moderation (was Pentagrams)
Reply-To: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:08:40 GMT

In article <6BkNoB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
(Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

> two: i am a lesbian pagan everywhere i go.  i do not suddenly become a 
> heterosexual christian at events.  these are attitudes that i have to 
> deal with every day of my life...I am no more going to hide either my 
> religion or my sexual orientation than you are.

  I would like to point out that you have not been asked to hide either
your religion or your sexual orientation from anyone.  Even if using a
pentacle in
heraldry were a way of showing pagan orientation (which it isn't), and
even if the BoD was prejudiced against pagans (which it isn't), you are
still not required to do anything.  The College of Arms has no
enforcement authority whatsoever, and no herald can assume the authority
to regulate armory.  You could make up a banner with a pentacle on it
and fly it, and no herald could legally stop you without the authority
of a higher source.
  All the ruling on pentacles does is say, "The SCA will not give an
official sanction to devices which contain pentacles."  This has no
regulatory effect.

> Blaming pagans for fundamentalist bigotry is about as fair as blaming 
> women for rape.

  Agreed.

> "If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."

  It's ironic that a call for tolerance and end your statement with a
blatantly sexist quote such as this.  it's difficult to sympathize with
you when you're attacking me.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**

	 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:46:37 GMT

In article <712043902.F00015@therose.pdx.com> Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond) writes:
>If you carry real weapons, ANY real weapons, and don't know how to use them 
>to your own best advantage, you are a *fool*.
>
>
>Moreach NicMaolain
>trifid@agora.rain.com
>
>Be safe, my friends... 

And may I add to this what an acquaintance (who used to be the knife
for a Chicago area gang) says--"If you know you don't know how
to use it, you don't know.  If you think you know how to use it, you
probably don't."

My own (too much) experience, both personal and second hand, indicates
that for most women, it's easier and more effective to fight off
an attacker unarmed.  The little "don't hurt anyone" mechanism is less
likely to go off when you are acting defensive, and not using a 
weapon, unless training and experience make using that weapon
automatic.

And one more thing--as great as the temptation is, it's only rarely
advisable to "get the bastard."  Run away to fight another day.

Enid Wrigglesworth/
Ann Feeney
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 30 Jul 1992 16:01:44 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul30.050530.23755@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander) writes:

>P.S.  Let me reiterate that I do not think Corun's post really 
>qualifies as a flame; I am just extremely sensitive to the fire 
>hazard right now, as a recent flamewar may have cost us one of
>our wisest contributors.
> 
>--Alexander

In fact, the hottest flames we get on this group are balmy breezes
compared to what you'll see on many of the other groups.  That simply
means our standards are higher--or should be--and that a mild flame
looks ferocious to us who are actually _trying_ to practice courtesy,
because we are ladies and gentlemen.  Now, if we all just keep trying...



Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jburian@andy.bgsu.edu (John M. Burian)
Subject: Demo videotapes available?
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:20:07 GMT

Our local demo-crat is interested in obtaining good quality videotapes
suitable for showing at demos - either made specifically for the 
purpose, or compilations of various broadcast spots. Are there any
out there, and if so, how do we get our hands on them? Respond by
mail, please, at least in part. Thanks, 

					John M. Burian