From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (exuptr@exu.ericsson.se)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:17:13 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug24.170112.15116@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <exuptr.366.714349985@exu.ericsson.se> exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor) writes:

>>In article <1992Aug20.154805.27655@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>>I'd like to thank Mr. Haugh for this fine example of the typical 'good
>>>Christian'.  

>>I love it when these guys do this.  Like Christians are not allowed to 
>>do something he would do, or that he would not call someone else to the
>>carpet on RE: their personal beliefs.

>What 'these guys' are you talking about?  Anyone can be a hypocrite.
>Militant Christians of Mr Haugh's stripe generally deny it, though,
>even though they ROUTINELY act in ways that conflict with their
>supposed religious beliefs.  Obviously, belief in God doesn't help
>them much, insofar as being the kind of people they would like to
>insist all the REST of us should be.

This doesn't even make sense.  I think the misunderstanding is Mr Haugh does 
not behave in the way you would understand his beliefs to indicate.

His personal beliefs, like so many of us, cannot be found in a book, I would 
guess.  The point is that you are the one supposing what his religious 
beliefs are, don't be surprised if you find inconsistancies.  To really know 
someone's beliefs, watch their actions AND the reasons behind them.

>Because if they're wrong, either we just 'stop' when we die or else I
>won't be in Hell to watch Mr. Haugh burn for acting the way he does
>(since a 'reasonable' God would judge based on who a person was inside
>and not on irrelevencies like 'faith').

I don't think God ever promised to be reasonable :-)

>>>Under his beliefs, of course, I will
>>>undoubtedly land in Hell due to my lack of acceptance on faith alone.

Maybe, maybe not.  God decides, no one else can know for sure, IMHO.  Of 
course reading the Bible could give you some clues...

>>No.  You cannot earn salvation as taught by Jesus.

>So is it your contention that by merely having faith a place in Heaven
>is earned, and that otherwise what a person does doesn't matter?

Of course it matters.  But you cannot "earn" salvation.  It is a gift.  You 
cannot possibly be good enough, by the OT law, to be sinless.

What you can do is repent in good faith, and accept Jesus' covenant.  
Covenant is what it is really about.  Not too many people In Covenant will
go around blatantly sinning...

>While this would certainly explain a lot of things I've seen
>self-proclaimed Christians do (because "God will forgive me") that
>other people would not (without a diety as an excuse, that kind of
>hypocrisy tends to be too much for most people to convince themselves
>to commit), I find it difficult to believe that an ostensibly
>omnipotent, omniscient, kind, compassionate God would want to reward
>people for that.

To sin because you will be forgiven is one of the greatest insults to God.  
This is not a Covenant relationship IMHO.  Doubtless they will have a 
reward, but not in Heaven :-)

>>>Undoubtedly, my punishment will be just
>>>being in Hell; his will be me being the person who gets to stoke his
>>>personal fires.

>>Perhaps.  Again, according to he NT, it is God who decides, and not any of 
>>us (thank God), as we are _all_ fallable.

>Some, like Mr. Haugh, just prove to be a hell of a lot more fallible
>than others.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course.  

>>>Of course, it is also folks like Mr. Haugh who give religion a bad
>>>name.  Try living by your own teachings for a while, John, instead of
>>>going by your own lies and distortions about other people in rendering
>>>judgements about them.  

>>Not bad advice for anybody.  Most sensible thing I've ever seen you post.
>>Careful, though, you're beginning to sound rather judgemental yourself.

>I'm allowed to be judgemental.  Nothing in my religion says I can't
>be.  

Just that it's hypocritical of you to have a double-standard, regardless of
John's beliefs.  Either you measure him by your standards, or you measure 
you by his.  You can't compare meters and milliseconds.

>That isn't the case for all these self-proclaimed 'good
>Christians', though.  I've known some who have tried very hard to live
>up to their ideals.  However, on the other hand, there seem to be all
>too many like Mr. Haugh.

Isn't it true that anyone can be a hypocrite, regardless of religion?  You 
might say the demon of hypocrisy is an equal opportunity employer...

(Note: I'm not endorsing that John is a hypocrite here)

>>>Good luck, John, because barring some change in the way you think
>>>(which I don't think you are capable of), I'll probably see you there
>>>(if your religion is right -- if not, of course, all bets are off).

>>If the NT is right, all bets _are_ off.  

>Depends on your interpretation.

No, only on the author's :-)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                       - D Adams
  - Patrick Taylor
    Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                       "Don't let the .se fool you"
    alternately, exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org
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