HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Mafdal and the Government
Date: 31 Jul 92 10:06:46 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel


 In: <5175@shum.huji.ac.il>
 ranen@huey.cs.huji.ac.il (Ranen Goren) states:

>In article <l68mi3INN3od@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM>, janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM (Jan
>|> I was just wondering if this the first time the Mafdal has not been
>|> part of the Israeli government ...
>|>
>|> ***************************************************************************
>|> Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075
>|> janiceg@marvin.eng.sun.com   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!)
>|> ***************************************************************************
>
>Well, actually there was: the United government which was formed in
>1988 included only Licud, Labor and Shas.

To the best of my recollection this is wrong.   That government included
Mafdal.

Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rda834x@nella4.cc.monash.edu.au (J. Zufi)
Subject: Looking for a friend - Attention US users
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 06:29:43 GMT

I am looking for a friend who is currently in the US - he might
know someone that hooks up to Internet, so I thought I would try here
his name is David Dzenciol, and he studied at Neveh College in Israel
in 1990/1991. Please reply via e-mail.

Thanks.

J.Z.

-- 
[  Jonathan Zufi                  | rda834x@nellads.cc.monash.edu.au   
[  Robotics & Digital Technology  | zuf@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au          
[  Monash Univeristy, Caulfield	  | "A winner never quits; a quitter never wins"
[  Melbourne, Australia		  |			  traditional.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust
From: COMAZUR1@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:37:36 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science

In article <1992Jul20.181428.2845@unixland.natick.ma.us>
sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

>I am *extremely* disappointed that, except for one private message
>to me expressing support for my views and my friends, no one else here
>has spoken out against the assumption that non-Jewish eastern Europeans
>are probably, at best, "country-club"-type anti-Semites.
>
>I guess negative stereotyping is OK, then, as long as it is practiced *by*
>Jews and not *toward* us? :-(
>
>Sharon
>--
>Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
>Framingham, MA  USA
>email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
>

  I'd say that from the personal experience of life in xSU and of
  travelling a bit in the rest of Eastern Europe, a quoted above
  "assumption" is a very very reasonable basis for everyday life.
  One remembers with somewhat peculiar clarity *every* case this
  assumption didn't work. A rare exception unfortunately always
  reinforced the general rule of the thumb, so to say...

  Not to smear Sharon's friends, oh no. But please be so kind as to
  leave our stereotypes alone. It took some hard learning to form
  them. Throw away your american passport and accent... and i won't
  even take a bet on what would happen.

  Alex.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: Turbo-Orthodox (was Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:03:11 GMT

So we've got Turbo-Jews.

How about virtual (not necessarily virtuous) Jews; we _look_ frum, but ...

Cache-ing Jews (the one's who switch to daf yomi during layning of Shabbos).

Or the "lifnei meshurat ha-din-nikkim," who run a 486,  but with 
 a math coprocessor?

Da'as Torah versus MSDOS (or, in Israel, Emet Da'at)?



-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<FAIGIN.92Jul27075601@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Jul27.200421.19648@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:33:38 GMT

On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:04:21 GMT, hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
(hillel.e.markowitz) said: 

> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes: 
>>No, you're wrong. 1 + 1 = 10. Boy, can't anyone add :-)
> Actually, the reg exp gives 1+1 = 11

> Or maybe since 2+2 = 5 then 1+1 = 2.5 (we could compromise)

Or maybe I was using binary and you didn't realize it. Sheeze.

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
   "You can't be a rationalist in an irrational world. It isn't rational!"
	       Dr. Rance, in Joe Orton's "What the Butler Saw"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix  (508) 655-3848
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 01:16:46 GMT

madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:

>You know, this is the reason I stopped going to synogogue, moved away
>from the NY metro area, and pretty much dropped out of the Jewish
>Community.  David, your attitudes and opinions are, in my opinion,
>offensive.  If you have so little regard for you fellow man, then
>at least consider that it is your selfish and provincial mindset
>that have alienated many Jews of my generation from the community. 

>If I am to commit the time, effort and resources it takes to join a
>group, you can bet it will be one that is a force for good and not
>evil.  David, I believe your attitude toward humanity is EVIL.  Your
>responses to Sharon are disrespectful, and you are disgracing your
>own people.  

Thanks for the support. Actually, in my fairly mainstream, Conservative
synagogue, our rabbi talks about compassion for others and the importance of  
helping those who need help. He talks about people in general, not
only Jewish people. Although most of the projects undertaken by our
synagogue have to do with helping other Jews, there are also things like
serving meals in the town's homeless shelter, where I believe there are
a fair number of non-Jews.

After my discussions here the past couple of weeks, I thought it was
really interesting that one of the readings at services Friday night
had to do with compassion, and with judging your neighbor fairly.

I am no scholar, but I cannot believe the Torah teaches that we should
care only about our own, and it is right and just to assume the worst
of someone because of their ethnic group, and we should not be disturbed
if others are suffering as long as they aren't Jews.

Shalom,

Sharon  

-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:34:47 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)

In article <1992Jul28.155317.29437@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>Isn't this the same nitwit who insisted that I must be lying when I
>explained that I'd been beaten up by the Williamsburg Satmers for
>not dressing according to their standards of modesty?

I don't know whom you are refering to.  I was the one who asked you
to spell out your claim that there are Orthodox neighborhoods that
kill anyone that enters who doesn't believe the same as they do, and
you backed up your claim by stating that a friend of yours got beat
up for immodesty.

With a maliciously exaggerated claim like that, I merely stated the
obvious then and now: you are a bigot, and not worth believing at face
value.

>						       If so, he never
>has any backing for the allegations;

Again, where was the backing for *your* allegation?  The one about
killing grounds.  You never retracted it, nor apologized, so I assume
you still stand by that lie.

>				      it's just his way of hiding his
>head in the sand -- don't bother with him, David.

David Skoll and I have no difficulty carrying out a disagreement--we
stick to points based on the real world--and we may even learn something
from each other.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kotel "kvitlach" by Fax ?
Date: 30 Jul 92 11:38:30 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Jul30.073246.424@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
>Someone at work mentioned that in yesterday's MAARIV newspaper there
> was a short note about Rabbi Getz (RAV HAKOTEL) getting "KVITLACH"
                               ^^^^
>(small pieces of paper with written "requests" to be placed in the
> cracks of the rocks of the Western Wall) by FAX. Did anybody (in
> Israel) see this ?  Josh  backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

GETS (GIMEL TSADEE) is an acrosticon ( speling problem ? if yes then
count me as a nominated for a vice president job) of:  Ger TSedek  ( a
converted Jew). Not of Rav Hakotel -:).
By the way does anyone know about that strangebehavioure of putting
small pieces of paper on the western wall before the six day war?

 there was a custom of ptuting there a nail when leaving Jerusalem.

Shalom   Gideon
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:24:23 GMT

In article <9207231748.AA21139@ptms_dev.sbi.com>, gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:
|> My idea of an Orthodox Jew is one who believes the Torah was given
|> to Moshe by G-d at Sinai, and that it is binding -- with Torah sheb'al
|> Peh -- on all Jews to this day and beyond.  The OJ will continually
|> strive to fulfill the law in all its aspects, and strive to improve
|> in his/her observance always.

I think this is a good definition.  After all, there isn't a Jew anywhere who
never sins.  If deviation from halacha by even one iota would make one not
Orthodox, then there are no Orthodox Jews.

My own personal definition of "Orthodox" includes yours, plus adds the
following: The belief that the "moral" and "ritual" laws are both equally the
word of G-d, and that the Torah does not distinguish between these categories,
as modern society tends to do.

|> Institutionalized rationalizing of departure from the law does not fit
|> in.  If that's what's behind the "left of center" OJs, then perhaps

... deleted

|> carries about as much weight.]  But anyway, any individual or group
|> that says, "Well, I really can't ..." or "This really is too difficult
|> for me to ..." is stretching it.

Well, I agree with the first two lines here but not the last three.  It seems
that a Jew who chooses to violate halacha can say one of three things:

1) I don't really believe this should be forbidden - i.e., I think that this 
   halacha is "wrong" (based on my personal opinion, not the halachic process).
2) I realize it is forbidden, but I actively choose to rebel.
3) I realize it is forbidden, but it is very hard for me to keep this law.  I
   hope to one day find the will power to do tshuvah.

I would equate your first two lines with choice 1, your last three with choice
3.  I would say that the person #3 is doing better than #1 and #2, and that
furthermore, #1 and #2 are anti-Orthodox answers, while #3 is not.

Lots of food for thought in this topic!
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      |  "Ronald Reagan??  The ACTOR??
Bellcore            |   Then who's *Vice* President - Jerry Lewis?!"
Piscataway, N.J.    |  "Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean;
(908) 699-8800      |   he'd rip through us like we were tinfoil!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: pdm@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (peter d. mark)
Subject: michael lerner (was Re:  Why I gave up on my People)
Organization: University of Oregon Computer and Information Sciences Dept.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 02:18:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.174027.17499@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> 
	ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>In article <_-jm_ah.madhaus@netcom.com>, 
	madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>>> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

>>> > 	Well if they do care, at the very least they have a strange way of
>>> > showing it.  At the most, they have their priorities screwed up.  For
>>> > just one example (out of many), plenty of Jews were arrested
>>> > protesting policies in South Africa.  Most of these Jews did not do
>>> > anything for Soviet Jews, in fact many criticized some attempts on
>>> > behalf of Soviet Jews.  I really do not know why I have to remind you
>>> > of this since it is well known and documented.

>>> And I do not have to quote any reference since they are intuitively
>>> obvious to even the most casual observer. <sarcasm> 

>Actually, it is <no sarcasm>.  If you insist on names the New Jewish
>Agenda (headed by Michael Lerner(?)) quickly comes to mind.


details please.  although i am unfamiliar with the "new jewish agenda",
i am familiar with michael lerner from reading tikkun magazine regularly 
over the last several years.  it is abundantly clear to me that lerner 
cares as deeply for israel and world jewry as for nonjewish persecuted 
or endangered groups of people.  

so what are the precise charges against lerner and the new jewish agenda?

peter
pdm@cs.uoregon.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Helping anyone?
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:33:41 GMT

I believe that it is not possible to say: We should help Jews first, if 
we do not consider the context: Why, when, how, where.
Since I came to the USA, I owe a lot more to non-Jews than I do to Jews.
Also, we should look to whom and why.
The statement: We are supposed to help Jews first, is too big and like a 
blank check.
Maybe because I have never asked people who needed my help, and to whom I
had feelings or not, if they were Jews or not.
Also, because a lot of people helped me, and they never asked me if I was
a Jew or not. Some of them were surprised to know it, and they did not even 
care at that time either.

However, I believe that if we want to stop another Holocaust, Israel will not
help us. The only thing that will help us is to fight against the roots of
anti-semitism and segregation. And, to do that, we cannot do it alone.
It is my feeling that we should stop thinking We first. We should think: All
together to end discrimination. All together to make a better world.
After all, if I have to choose between helping Jews like Shamir, Sharon, 
Begin, or those who collaborated with the Nazis in concentration camps, 
and Madre Teresa, or Mandela, or those who were in Sabra and Chatila, for
example, I will choose to help the non-Jews. 

AAp
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:39:31 GMT

In article <dfs.712002859@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

(re tuition breaks at Jewish day schools ...)
>
>There is a definite stigma attached to asking for these allowances,
>and many people will not do it.
>
Yeah, but if that's what you've gotta do to give your kid a 
Jewish education, then you swallow your pride and do it.


I had written ...
>>I won't plead poverty, but in my community (Baltimore), lots of
>>Jews make it, even on relatively low salaries (we're not all
>>MDs, lawyers, Egged bus drivers, or even college professors).
>
>Egged bus drivers live in Israel, where it's much easier.  People who

Sorry -- a little inside joke. Egged bus drivers are RICH by 
Israeli standards.  Egged is a coop, so the drivers are part owners.
(At least this used to be the case.  If things have changed, I
am certain that someone -- maybe even Yigal -- will correct me.)

>live in large Jewish communities also have it easier.  But let's take
>the example of the small Jewish community in St. John's:
>
>Kosher food - had to be flown in from Montreal.
>Mohel - had to be flown in from Ottawa.
>Kosher restaurants - ha!
>Jewish day camps - A 1000 km trip to Nova Scotia.
>
>That's extreme, I will admit.  And I suppose you could argue that
>serious Jews "shouldn't" live in such a place.

Well, it's tough being a serios Jew if you're the only one around. :-(

>But take my 5-year-old niece in San Diego.  Her Jewish day school fees
>(1992) are more expensive than my university fees were in 1990.
>Clearly, that's absurd.  And just as clearly, most people are too
>frightened/ashamed/nervous to ask for the fees to be reduced or
>waived.

Two of my kids attended U. of Maryland after yeshiva HS; the tuition
savings made me feel rich!

>>But I simply don't believe that there are many who truly want to
>>be obervant Jews (O,C, or R) who can't do so because of financial
>>considerations.
>
>I believe there are a substantial number of Jews who do not
>participate in a Jewish community because of the expense.  There are
>many financial dis-incentives.  For example, many synagogues charge
>virtually the same for a couple to be members as for a single person.
>Clearly, this discriminates against singles, and that's why many shuls
>are missing young, single members.

Still, serious Jews will take serious steps -- financial privation
and swallowing one's pride, among other things -- to be serious
about their Judaism.


-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: abortion for Noachides
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:11:29 GMT

Yesterday, I read a news story about how the US Customs confiscated
RU486 pills (a French pill that induces abortions).  Anyone care to
speculate if use of this pill might be halacially preferable to other
methods?  Would its use be subject to any penalty at all?  To tell
you the truth, I don't recall if killing a living person by poison is
a capital crime for either Jews or Bnei Noach, but in this case (I
think), the fetus isn't being poisoned, the mother's body is being
made to reject the fetus.  Perhaps this is sufficiently indirect that
it would not be subject to any penalty?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire hall		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter gauze pad.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is concerned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:10:15 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <FAIGIN.92Jul21103148@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:
>On Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:22:39 GMT, lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) said:

			..................

>>>Consider: Reform Jews do keep kosher, do observe the holidays, do (for the
>>>most part) circumcize their children, do observe Pesach, do eat Matzah and
>>>moror, do follow the ethical teachings, do observe Rosh Hashana and Yom
>>>Kippur, do teach their children in Judaism.

>>  Oh, you forgot Shabbos.  

>Many Reform Jews (of those that are serious) do indeed keep Shabbat.

I have argued myself for a serious observance of Shabbath, but not 
what the Orthodox call the proper observance.  One must reinterpret
and discard.

>>  Are these ccircumcisions by a mohel with the proper brochos, or by a
>>  surgeon?

>Both. Reform does actually have a mohelim program (if memory serves correct --
>I don't know the details), and many Reform Jews use Conservative or Orthodox
>Mohels. 

Where does it state in the Written Torah that circumcision is to be performed
by a mohel?  Where does it state anything about the nature of the ceremony?
From Joshua, it seems that this commandment was not kept in the desert, and
I can see no danger in doing it there.  

>>  Indeed many Reform do keep Yom Kippur,
>>  but the last Reform Rabbi I talked to told me he does NOT keep the fast
>>  days.  What about the 9th of Av?

>Most of the fast days other than YK are not practiced (that I am aware of),
>although nothing prohibits a Reform Jew from fasting.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:01:49 GMT
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet

aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) writes:
>> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:
>> >Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
>> >born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
>> 
>> Perhaps not, but he/she wouldn't be a cannibal then.

>Then, even if my mother is Jewish, if I do not practice Jewish principles,  
>I am not Jewish?

Perhaps you should reread my response.  I said nothing whatsoever
about the criteria for membership in Judaism.  Judaism is a "club"
that requires actions of its members; cannibalism is one that
equates membership with actions.

I resented the original questioner's comparison of Judaism with
cannibalism, but responded civilly nevertheless.  Perhaps he just
finished reading his copy of the Protocols, and he couldn't shake
the image.  I was merely showing that different groups are defined
in different ways.

-Don Gertler
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D. Thorne)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:36:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
    I think that David's statement that the position of

That being said I don't think that it is useful to perpetually 
stress the differences between OCR.  I came from a C home, 
my wife from a R home.  CR Judaism while not "authentic" 
from a Orthodox perspective is not a complete break either.  
Most O don't hate the CR and most CR have had no real 
exposure to O and reflect the attitudes of the general society.  
O Jews are just as rational, open-minded, and able to live in a 
mixed society as are CR Jews.  We do not observe the O 
halacha because we are simple minded or emotionally 
unstable.  We (or at least I) believe in perpetuating 
something of great value intact, of transmitting it to our 
children and G-d willing to our grandchildren.  That's not a 
condemnation of CR (not explicit).  What's so bad about that?  
My life is not ruined by the rejection of O halacha by the CR 
movements and CR Jews should not need O approval.  If a C 
hecsher for swordfish is sufficient then why do C 
converts/divorces/halacha need an O hecsher?  That's not 
being polemical, just practical.

    The point of the above is not to offend.
               Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.latin-america