HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Sweden: End Baltic Occupation
From: verbit@birkhoff.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:24:14 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <1992Jul25.172035.12796@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@brauer.harvard.edu) writes:
>)	Note that I believe that this "translation" being put out
>)	by well known Dambergis (a rabid nationalist and hatred-
>)	breeder) *does* express Balt's views on their future.
>)
>))On the same day 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' published a 21 june
>))dispatch from correspondent Siegfried Thielbeer in Tallinn, entitled
>))'The Baltic Struggle
>)...
>))Baltic radical forces speak only of liberation from these 'occupants'.
>))Russification, they say, threatens to destroy their nations. And, despite all
>))protestations to the contrary, their clear desire is to force the Russians to
>))emigrate. This political conundrum is tied to serious social problems.
>)
>)       Well, Erland, when Balts themselves write about forced deportation,
>)       will you call them liars? I doubt. You should apologize to Viznyuk,
>)       then, he wrote just the same. Response is demanded, since you,
>)       I believe, wronged Seriozha as much as he wronged you (but are
>)       much more responsible :).
>
>Why ask for apologies based on your belief that an article in
>Frankfurter Allgemiene" does express the Baltic view? Does the
>Siegfried Thielbeer sound like a Baltic name to you? Do you
>think Frankfurt sounds like the name of a Baltic city?

[ some other stuff deleted ]

>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Dabras Laiks!

Sorry, Erland, I should make myself clear. Of course, I know
that views expressed in the article should not immediately represent
views of the publisher. Anyway, I feel that this was the case of
the recent poster. Most of the article was pro-Baltic and it was
posted with the same agenda mutlu posts his "sources" -
to present the radical Balts' views as some known facts.
Since the regular posters from the Balt's side (except you) 
did not disclaim my conclusion, I believe it is true. 
I also believe that you will see the same truth soon
(when the war begins :()

Misha.

P. S. I remember some old posts of the publisher of the article
in question which represented similar views, not openly, though.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sasha@ldgo.columbia.edu (Alexander Krupitsky)
Subject: Re: Demokratia za chuzhoi schet
Summary: A pragmatic view
Organization: Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:55:43 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.175908.22259@leland.Stanford.EDU>, arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) writes:
> 		Tak. Rebiata, davayte vse taki razberemsia.
> 
> 	A. Mi ne khotim etoy diskussiyi v nashey gruppe, ni Mutlu ni armian.
> 
> 	B. Mi khotim prodolzheniya etoy diskussiyi, i Mutlu i armian.
> 
> 	C. Mi ne khotim diskussiyi, no Mutlu terpet' mi mozhem, a armian net.
> 
> 	
> 
> 	K kakomu variantu vse taki vi raspolozheni bolshe?
> 
> Esli A. to ya s vami obeyimi rukami, i svoikh poproshu prekratit` eto delo.
> 
> Esli B., to togda ya budu gotov perevesti etu diskussiyu na bolee seriozniy
> uroven`, postavit' vse tochki nad i.
> 
> Esli C., togda vi uzh menia prostite, no esli Mutlu umeet demokraticheskoye
> pravo rugatsa v nash adres, to pochemu vi nam otkazivaete v prave khotia bi
> emu otvechat`? Esli uzh demokratiya, to togda dlia vsekh. I sledovatelno -
> prostchay soc.culture.soviet. talk.politics.soviet. A vi govorite, shto
> ya vas khochu vziat` v zalozhniki ? Da shto s vami, rebiata? Vi, naskolko ya
> ponimayu, v etoy gruppe zalozhniki uzhe ne perviy god. Tak esli bit`
> zalozhnikami Mutlu mozhno, pochemu zhe nelzia bit' zalozhnikami i Mutlu i 
> ego opponentov? 
> 
> 	A slovo eto mne ochen` ponravilos`. Molodets Mutlusha!
> Kak vsetaki odin virodok mozhet godami trepat' nervi tisiacham obrazovannikh
> intellegentov ... Kstati est` zamechatelnaya turetskaya pogovorka:
> nuzhno sobrat' 70 umnikh liudey shtobi reshit' kak sniat' kamen' iz 
> kolodtsa kotoriy brosil odin durak. Zamechatelno, pravda ?
> 
> 						
> 								Arto.



Uvazhaemy Arto,

Pozvolte mne vyskasat' svoe lichnoe mnenie. Iz predlozhennyh Vami 
alternativ mne bolshe vsego nravitsya A. Dumayu, chto ya ne odinok.

Chto kasaetsya "terpet mozhem - terpet ne mozhem", to vopros, k
sozhaleniyu tak ne stoit, i Vy eto ponimaete. Nikto ne ostanovit
mutlu.  Vidimo bolshinstvo nashlo vyhod v kill-failah i na tom
uspokoilos' (i ne zabluzhdaites' - nervy na nego bol'she nikto ne
tratit). Vy zhe znaete: ne trogai govno - ono ne pahnet, po krainei
mere ne tak silno. Ya ponimayu, cto Vy ne hotite ostavlyat' vse eto
bez otveta.  Odnako posmotrite s drugoi storony:
  - Chto by ne govoril Misha Verbitsky, nikto mutlu ne chitaet. Ili 
pochti nikto. Vse chego Vy dob'etes' eto po stopam Davidyana popadete
v mvozheestvo kill-failov i Vas tozhe nikto ne budet chitat. Net smysla
chitat' tolko odnu storonu.
  - Predpolozhim na minutu, chto mutlu vse zhe chitayut. Chtoby emu
vser'ez protivostoyat' Vam pridetsya posylat' stat'i v te zhe 15 grupp
i voobsche practicheski ispolsovat' mutlovskie metody. Tem samym Vy
opustites' v tochnosty do ego urovnya. Vy etogo hotite?

Poimite, edinstvenny resul'tat deyatelnosti mutly - eto vozbuzhdenie
anti-tureztkih nastroenii. Vy uvereny, chto vy hotite etomu aktivno
protivodeistvovat'? 

Sasha
From: cathy@techbook.com (Cathy Gaupo)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Latvia
Date: 26 Jul 92 05:52:09 GMT
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix

Is there a Latvia newsgroup?
If so, could someone tell me         
how to get on it?

Thanks

cathy@techbook.com

Cathy
-- 
cathy@techbook.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400, N81)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:6453 talk.politics.mideast:17399 soc.culture.turkish:8126 soc.culture.greek:6900 soc.history:6799 soc.culture.europe:6693
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.history,soc.culture.europe
Subject: He Would Ignore Mutlu (was UNILATERAL MORATORIUM)
Summary: assigning rational reaction to a fool
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:02:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: urartu.1992Jul30.150225.15566
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies

In article <1992Jul29.013443.23082@leland.Stanford.EDU> arto@leland.Stanford.
EDU (Artavazd Khachikian) wrote:

[AK]	I HEREBY URGE ALL THE ARMENIAN PARTICIPANTS OF THE "DISCUSSION"
[AK]
[AK] WITH MUTLU TO REFRAIN FROM ANY POSTINGS IN THIS NEWSGROUP FOR THE PERIOD
[AK]
[AK] OF ONE WEEK, UNTIL THE 4 OF AUGUST.
[AK]
[AK]
[AK]	THIS MORATORIUM IS SUPPOSED TO DEMONSTRATE HOW EFFECTIVE IS
[AK]
[AK] SILENCE AS A MEANS OF DEALING WITH THE MUTLU PHENOMENON AND LIBERATING
[AK]
[AK] THIS NEWSGROUP, AS IT WAS CLAIMED BY NUMEROUS AUTHORS.
[AK]
[AK]
[AK]	I SPECIFICALLY REFER TO MR. DAVIDIAN AND ASK HIM TO IGNORE
[AK]
[AK] THE POSTINGS FOR THE PERIOD OF ONE WEEK. LET US SEE HOW FAR WE GET.

It will get nowhere! Postings via "mutlu" have been read on this net for almost
4 years, and simply having those of us on the rational side of the thought
process stay silent, will not result in "mutlu" simply "leaving". You assume
"mutlu" reacts as a normal human -- a bad assumption!

Mutlu will return to his point of origin when he is told to by the Turkish
government OR when those having demands of the Turkish Republic dissappear. 

In the most perverted way, "mutlu" clearly demonstrates the old saying (from 
a non-Turkish persective) "who needs friends with enemies like mutlu". Mutlu
has simultaniously made the Turkish name on UseNet be synonimous with a 
fascist re-write of history -- in the face of 4 years of refutating  -- and 
provided a wealth of ASCII material that would normally not be available from
the Turkish side of genocide and its denial.

 
-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains."
From: DMITRIIZ@templevm.bitnet (Dmitrii Zelmanovich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Communications in Russia
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:24:13 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

All fax machine can be used in former Soviet Union with one exeception, the
power must have a switch for 220 volts. If fax machine does't have the
switch, you can use a trasformer that will conver 220 volts to 110 volts.
The telephone is the same as in USA, but fewer lines are available, and some
connections are done manualy(by operator not by a switch board). Celular
telephones are not available in CIS, it must build the network. Computers that
where bought in USA is good in CIS if you have proper electric supplay, that al
lowes you to switch the voltage, from 110 to 220. If you need are computer with
220v power supplies we can make arragment for you, that you can purchase one.
  If yoou have question, please ask me.
                     Thank you, Dmitrii.
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Coup book by Yeltsin?
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:21:22 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA

Some time ago I heard that Yeltsin was writing a book about the
coup.  The book was scheduled for a release last spring and
Newsweek was going to serialize it.  Does anyone know anything
about this?  

Thanks,
Julie

#include "std_disclaimer.h"

(Sorry if this shows up twice.  As the old refrain goes, I posted
but it looks like it didn't make it the first time.)
From: grant%9296.span@SDSC.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: On the deaths of the Romanov family ...
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:57:48 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

From:	SDS::"ORTHODOX@INDYCMS.BITNET" 23-JUL-1992 16:27:58.85
To:	9296$SPAN::GRANT
CC:
Subj:	On the deaths of the Romanov family ...

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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:22:31 EDT
Reply-To: <ORTHODOX@INDYCMS.BITNET>
From:         Mark Markish x2799 <mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM>
Subject:      On the deaths of the Romanov family ...
Comments: To: ORTHODOX%INDYCMS.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU
To:           Multiple recipients of list ORTHODOX <ORTHODOX@INDYCMS.BITNET>

A follow-up to J.McLellan's pieces on the last Emperor of Russia.

A big trouble is the _incredible_ (even by modern standards) amount
of deception and slander, produced over 7 decades on the subject
on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Even well-intended authors and publications
are invariably influenced by all kinds of falshood about pre-revolutionary
Russia, the nature of the revolution, the Emperor and his family. And this
is amazing how some of us, even on this network, would refer to sources
(like Val.Pikul') which make as little sense as supermarket tabloids.

[coincidentally, the same kind of fallacy has been common in the xUSSR:
 not making any difference between, say, National Examiner and Commentary].

From the top of my head (and desk drawer) I would like to list the following
titles, which will be of a help for anyone interested in the subject. Sorry,
I have them only in Russian, but I am sure that together we can find the
translations as well:

1. The Reign of Emperor Nicholas II in Figures and Facts by B.L.Brazol
   (fact sheet and numerical data brochure);

2. Emperor Nicholas as a Man of a Strong Will by E.Alferev
   (an insight into the Emperor's biography, tracing the origins of common
   misconceptions, errors, and downright slander, regarding his personality
   and events of his life);

3. Memorandum by V.Rudnev
   (Vladimir M. Rudnev was a special prosecutor, appointed in March 1917 by
   then Secretary of Justice Alexander F. Kerensky to investigate the alleged
   wrongdoing of the highest officials of the former Imperial Government,
   including the members of the Royal Family. Noteworthy, V.Rudnev had been
   known as a liberal, who had wholeheartedly greeted the revolution of 1917.
   But his personal convictions did not interfere with his honesty and
   professional integrity, as it can be seen from his concluding memo,
   where he dispells all those allegations about the Royal Family, Rasputin,
   Badmaev and others, which have become a commonplace for fiction authors,
   politicians and "historians", who have been shaping our minds all over
   the globe ever since the revolution.)
From: alex@took.enet.dec.com ("Alex Allister Shvartsman, EMF,              LKG2-2/T2 21-Jul-1992 0619")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: RE: Hair and politics in Russia
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:48:28 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

I realize the below is in good humour, but ...

% From: "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU>
% Subj:	A quote I've long wanted to share ...
%
% "In 1989, a Soviet philosopher told me a bit of folk wisdom.
% According to an anecdote then making the rounds in Moscow, he said,
% the Soviet state oscillates between bald leaders and hairy ones -
% between reformers and conservative tyrants. He ticked off the pairs:
% Lenin, the bald revolutionary, was followed by Stalin, the tyrant
% with thick, bristling brush-cut hair and menacing mustache.

OK, but how can one get away with implying that Lenin's politics were benign
(as is implied throughout the quote)? Furthemore, there is a confusion among
the terms "reformer", "revolutionary", "conservative" and "tyrant". Lenin was
a tyrant. Stalin was both a reformer and a revolutionary.

[H. Smith also glosses over the transitional periods.]

% Nikita Khrushchev, the peasant reformer, who was as bald as a potato, gave
% wayto Brezhnev, the conservative, whose bushy eyebrows and headful of hair
% were parodied by cartoonists in the East and West.

OK :-)

% Yuri Andropov, a wispy-haired puritan bent on modernism and efficiency, was
% succeeded by Konstantin Chernenko, a defender of the Old Guard, who even in
% senility had an abundant head of white hair. So it was only natural that
% Gorbachev, whose birthmark gleams from a naked pate, should usher in a new
% era of radical reform. And of course, the philosopher said, smiling, nervous
% liberals were already beginning to speculate about what hairy hard-liner
% would succeed Gorbachev."
%
%                        Hedrick Smith, _The New Russians (1990)
%
% Well, does Boris Yeltsin count as a "hairy hard-liner?" VMS

We shall see. Actually I like this theory :-) But why begin with the Soviet
period? Let's see. Lenin - bold, [Kerensky? Hairy, but who cares. Was L'vov
bold?] Nicholas II - hairy, his father Alexander III - bold, his father
Alexander II - generally hairy (he started losing his hair actually, and
this must've forced him to free the serfs!), etc.

Wow, it makes a lot of sense! Only how do we explain Volodymer Vassily?
He is believed to have been very hairy.

Cheers,
Alex
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: A new abortion law in Poland (from Clarinews)
Date: 26 Jul 92 12:56:52 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Mikhail S. Verbitsky (verbit@birkhoff.harvard.edu) writes:
>What should I add? Religion, being relatively harmless in West
>behaves very ugly in ex-communist countries. I think this is
>because most people there cannot tell religion from totalitarian
>ideology which they worshipped most of their lifes. Now they
>just worship different symbols, but the power these symbols
>represent is the same - the power of total control and omnipresent
>marasm.

Off target. Religion is more important in some countries in
other. The correlation is rather Catholic on the one hand
and Protestant on the other (I can't tell where the Orthodox
come in), than communistic or not. Poland is strongly Catholic,
and the church would have had heavy influence without communists.
Ireland also have very severe abortion laws. In the united Germany,
heavy oppostion of the liberal abortion in the former DDR came from
the west, not the east. And witness how televangelists, "Moral
Majority" is a signficant source of opinion in the US.

Also, I find it completely unfounded to blame the people in Poland,
when the news article clearly indicated that the people disagrees
with its parliament.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Dabras Laiks!
From: drudetb@infonode.ingr.com (Ted B. Drude)
Subject: Re: A new abortion law in Poland (from Clarinews)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:52:10 GMT

>
>I just wanted to remind, that people in America are getting crazy, too, 
>and "pro-choice/pro-life" or whatever they call it is the "most important"
>issue here as well.  Interesting, why it became an issue. Because of
>so many immigrants from Mexico, Poland and other Catholic states
>(Catholicism prohibits abortions and birth-control stuff.)
>Or, maybe, people just have nothing to do?
>-- 
>  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA


Or maybe 1.5 million abortions a year in a country that has more birth
control options available than just about anywhere on earth makes some
people with basic common sense a little sick.
From: MNHEN039@sivm.bitnet (Elaine Hodges)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: On the deaths of the Romanov family ...
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:04:50 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

I hope the Joseph McClellan who sent the message about Nicholas II was not
the Joseph McClellan who is a music critic in Washington, D.C.
  I agree with Vadim.
  Elaine Hodges, Smithsonian
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: UN Reports it finds NO SIGN Armenia used chemical weapons.
Summary: Azeri claims once again prove untrue 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 03:03:15 GMT


		UN Reports It Finds No Sign Armenia Used Poison Arms

-----------------------
   Associated Press
-----------------------	


UNITED NATIONS -- Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali reported yesterday
that UN specialists found no evidence Armenia used chemical weapons against
Azerbijan.

"The fact that chemical weapons do not appear to have been used in the ongoing
conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan is cause for much relief," Boutros-
Ghali wrote in a report to the Security Council. "But the real solution to the
dispute will only be found by the end of the conflict and the reestablishment
of sound relations between the states concerned."

Boutros-Ghali said specialists from Sweden, Switzerland and Belgium visited
Azerbaijan from July 4-8 at the request of the government, which alleged 
Armenia used chemical weapons in the conflict in Nakhichevan. The
investigators also went to Armenia for talks with government officials.

Armenia had deied the allegations and requested a UN investigation.

The report by the team said a number of instances were presented suggesting the
use of chemical weapons.

"However, all these events could also readily be explained by reasons other
than chemical weapons. Furthermore, none of the events as described to the
team agreed with any pattern that would be expected from an attack involving chemical weapons.

"In sum, no evidence of use of chemical weapons was presented to the team," the report said.

Nakhichevan, a mostly Azerbaijani autonomous region, is technically 
administered by Azerbaijan but is cut off from it by Armenia.

Nakhichevan has not seen the same level of violence as Nagorno-Karabakh, where
some 2,000 people have died in four years of Armenian-Azerbaijani fighting.

Nagorno-Karabakh is a predominantly Armenian territory surrounded by mostly
Muslim Azerbaijan.

The Armenian-Azerbaijani fighting has intensified since the collapse of central
Soviet power.

-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains." 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:6418 soc.culture.jewish:13066 soc.culture.african.american:8339
From: tedrick@whistle.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Cold War Nostalgia (myth vs. myth)
Date: 28 Jul 1992 12:07:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: whistle.berkeley.edu

I think that fundamentally the cold war was a competition
between myths. Now the communist mythology seems to have
died in Russia, but it still seems to be alive amongst
leftists scattered throughout the democracies and the
3rd world.

Where this will all lead I don't know. Probably to
endless strife between various racial and class
categories. Since human stupidity is invincible,
what strategy can be used to deal with such a situation?
How can the awake profit from the battles between the
sleepwalkers?

Or it may be that some kind of Nietzschean mythology will
reappear, as the masses begin to yearn for release from
endless racial/class conflict, and seek a dictator (even
an "anti-Christ" like Hitler) to eradicate the "vermin"
irritating the body politic. Currently Saddam Hussein seems 
to approach most closely this ideal of a dictator ruthlessly
using force and terror to ensure internal societal tranquillity.
In the American inner cities the Black Muslim movement seems
closest to this ideal of "social peace through facism".

I would say this is the great weakness of Jewish culture:
lack of awareness of how a slight dissonance within a society
created by a disaffected or non-conformist minority group
can lead to a violent backlash, up to and including such
phenomena as Hitlerism. It's best to be very cautious when
a small minority group in an alien society.

(apologies if this doesn't seem appropriate to soc.culture.jewish.
My concern is in preserving Jewish culture, which I perceive as being
threatened by emerging facism around the world, including in the
USA, and especially in the Arab world.)

-- 
"An army is composed of idle and inactive men. Unless the general has a constant
eye on them this artificial machine will fall to pieces. If my soldiers began to
think, not one would remain. All that can be done is give them 'esprit de corps'
and keep them more afraid of their officers than the enemy" -Frederick the Great