From: roberts@CMR.NCSL.NIST.GOV (John Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Whales (SETI)
Date: 22 Jul 92 01:44:55 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
	formerly National Bureau of Standards


-From: phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Hartmut Frommert)
-Subject: Re: Whale killing for "science" -- so for what?
-Date: 21 Jul 92 14:50:39 GMT
-Organization: Dept. of Physics, University of Constance

There was a discussion on sci.space about whale intelligence (wrt SETI) a
few years ago, but any files I saved on the subject are not currently
accessible, so this response is from memory.

-As a response to your statement I mention that I only listed few examples
-for the manifestation of the intelligence of whales. As was stated on 
-sci.misc in the meantime, even the weight ratio brain/body is similar to
-human (!) for dolphins and orcas. 

-FYI: The language of whales is based on sound (I think infra sound) and in 
-     the case of dolphins sufficiently developed so that they can communicate
-     even without sight contact, and over larger distances. Covering the eyes
-     of one dolphin and giving optical signals to a second is communicated to
-     the first so that s/hecan react appropriately. Also think of the
-     "songs of the whales" -- some people compare it to culture/art.

I believe they use mainly the audible frequency range, and perhaps up into
the ultrasonic. Keep in mind that many animals communicate by sound, and
it's no clear indicator of intelligence. It's necessary to analyze the
sounds for modulation characteristics, individuality, and degree of variation.
Many of the baleen whale songs, for instance, appear to be straightforward
repetitive patterns, and may well be no more communicative than bird calls.
I believe one baleen whale (the grey whale?) exhibits slow changes in its
songs over a period of months, which may (or may not) be indicative of
slightly higher intelligence.


-Message-ID: <phfrom.202@nyx.uni-konstanz.de>
-Date: 21 Jul 92 14:57:28 GMT

-I assume that many of the readers here are deeply interested in SETI, 
-extra-terrestrial life (in particular, intelligent), etc.. How can one hope
-that there may be *any* useful (and peaceful) contact with ETI's if we
-are not even able to peaceful co-existence with the other TI's (the whales) ?

The usual argument is that we will be judged by the space aliens on how we
treat our lower species, so for instance if we expect to parasitize the
presumed greater learning and technology of alien species, we should be kind
to our own parasites - allow various blood-sucking creatures to live on our
bodies, let flies and rats eat off our plates before we do, etc. You seem to
be arguing that mistreating our whales makes us callous of the needs of other
species, and thus less likely to get along well with other species - so your
view at least shows some originality.

If we meet up with space aliens, they'll probably judge us on something we
consider really weird - like whether we punish our criminals fiercely enough,
or how piously we honor the memory of Elvis. :-)

-Please, no flames here. The discussion should stay on sci.misc.

So you can post your views here (and incorporate them in your signature),
but we're not allowed to reply here?

- Phone: +49-(0)7531-88-3747   | + Whales R intelligent. Whale killers not.  +

Saying "whales are intelligent" is only slightly less general than saying
"mammals are intelligent". I believe there's considerable variation - most or
all of the baleen whales appear to be fairly stupid. Sperm whales may be 
moderately intelligent, and also dolphins. (I've heard estimates of dolphin
intelligence put at somewhere between that of a very bright dog to "several
times that".) Perhaps the most intelligent non-primate (or even non-human)
animals on Earth are the killer whales (orcas). I'd like to know what the
current body of knowledge is on killer whale communications - some people 
seem to think its complexity is akin to what we might call speech. Dolphins
and killer whales are both fierce predators, and both have shown considerable
promise in interacting with humans (maybe we think alike :-). I object to
the killing of killer whales and dolphins on these grounds.

My main objection to the killing of the less intelligent whales is that they
have traditionally been "over-harvested", thus depleting the population and
threatening a potentially valuable resource. (Tuna are also a very valuable
resource currently being over-harvested - you should feel guilty whenever
you eat tuna, if you're concerned about such things.) I would support a
moratorium or large cutback on whaling until the populations get back to
what they should be (I gather that even the species currently being harvested,
though they may have stable populations, have lower population than they once
had). In the meantime, studies can be conducted to determine whether any
species are particularly intelligent, and thus deserving of special 
consideration.

-+ Whale killing is murder. Eating whales is cannibalism. Eat whale killers. +

Are we to enforce higher standards for our behavior toward whales than we
expect of them? Killer whales hunt and eat other whales. Does that mean 
we should eat the "cannibal" killer whales?

John Roberts
roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov