From: Chuck.Lavazzi@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Chuck Lavazzi)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: ALL ARGUMENTS FOR PRO-CHOICE REFUTED HERE!!!!!
Date: 7 Oct 92 02:17:33 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Oct6.000104.1896@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.201329.11680@wdl.loral.com> bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com writes:
>
>>I require a reference for this statistic.
>>
>># Proponents of abortion, such as Planned Parenthood, misrepresent the number of
>># deaths from "back-alley clinics" prior to legalization by using estimates of
>># 5,000 to 10,000 deaths annually, [...]
>>
>>I require a reference for this, and support for the allegation that
>>this is a misrepresentation.
>
>Coming from another source, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL
>(National Abortion Rights Action League) admits his group lied about the
>number of women who died from illegal abortion when testifying before the
>U.S. Supreme Court in 1972: "We spoke of 5,000 - 10,000 deaths a year ...
>I confess that I knew the figures were totally false ... it was a useful
>figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with 
>honest statistics?
>
	In short, the entire allegation rests completely on claims made by
Nathanson, a witness of dubious veracity at best.  Do you have any evidence,
aside from Nathanson's word, to substantiate this claim?  Nathanson is not
"another source"; he is, so far, the *only* source cited for this claim.
>>
>># 4.  To prevent child abuse.
>># 
>># Abortion is itself the ultimate form of child abuse and dehumanization, and
>># contrary to what many Americans assume, children from unplanned pregnancies
>># represent only 10% or fewer of abuse cases annually in America.  Following
>># Roe vs. Wade in 1973, the cases of child abuse in America rose 500% by 1982.
>>
>>I require a reference for this statistic.
>>
>
>Also, from another view/source:
>Date		Total Number		% Increase
>1973		167,000	
>1979		711,142			325%
>1986		1,000,000		500%
>
>U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, National Center of
>Child Abuse and Neglect
>
	Yes, I've seen these before.  And I have pointed out that in order to
substantiate the claim that the increase is due wholly or largely to the
availability of legal abortion, you must first demonstrate that no other
variables could have affected the increasse.  Other such variables
include (but are not limited to):  changes in the definition of the term
"child abuse" by Federal or State agencies; changes in the ease with which
suspected cases of abuse could be reported (how many 800 numbers were there
in 1973 for abuse reports?  How many were there in 1986?); public awareness
campaigns regarding abuse and neglect; and changes in the aggressiveness with
which law-enforcement agencies pursue charges of abuse and neglect.
	I think you will find that *all* of these factors have changed over
the time period in question.  Ignoring them and claiming that the increase is
due entirely to legalized abortion is more a reflection of your own political
agenda than anything else.  I might just as easily suggest that the increase
from 1979 to 1986 (for example) was caused by the installation of a rightist
administration in Washington that sharply cut funds for pre-natal care,
preschool, and other child-sensitive programs, thereby contributing to a
devaluation of children in our society.
	And I'd be just as correct as you are.
>>
>>
>
>Another possible useful source might come from Dr. Philip Ney, chief of
>psychiatry at a major teaching hospital.  Some quotes
>   "... elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse."
>   "Recent evidence indicates that many women harbor strong guilt feelings
>    long after their abortions.  Guilt is one important cause of child
>    battering an infanticide.  Abortion also lowers women's self-esteem
>    and there are studies reporting a major loss of self-esteem in 
>    battering parents..."
>   "Abortion might also weaken a social taboo against harming those who
>    are defenseless."
>
>P. Ney, "Relationship between Abortion & Child Abuse: Canada Jour.nal
>Psychiatry, vol. 24, 1979, pp. 610-620
>   
	The tactic of backing up one blatant assertion with another,
preferably uttered by someone with the title "Dr.", is an old debater's trick.
As an old debater [>:-)>] I'm familiar with it.  It still proves nothing,
except that Dr. Ney appears to agree with you.  Where's *his* evidence?

Chuck
No .sig, no frills, no foolin'


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