HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:37:31 GMT

In article <2022@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1993Jan18.144458.195@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>In article <199316.1777.22780@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>
>>Wayne, I have a terrific idea. Spend $10 and phone Leibowitz. His home phone
>>(from the U.S.) is: +972-2-255449. His home address:

>I don't want to appear totally ignorant here but didn't Professor Leibowitz
>die in 1991? Are we talking about the same Leibowitz? The biochemist who
>talks about 'JudeoNazis' or whatever. A really old guy who fled from Hitler
>in 193something? Are you sure he is still alive because I am sure I heard
>he died.

	He's still alive, and there's a bit of a stink in Israel, since
hes just been voted the Israel prize.  Quite a few people who remember
his "judeonazi" comments are outraged.

> Just don't tell me he's on the Net too (I am still getting over
>the shock of Dr Timothy Leary and Noam Chomsky begining around somewhere.

	No, he probably isn't.

>>> Many great American leaders, including Thomas Jefferson, held
>>> repulsively racist views. Pointing out these views does not erase
>>> or degrade their other achievements.

>Personally I think that if Jefferson was 'sleeping' with one of his
>fourteen year old slaves that does, how can I put it, place his 'other
>achievements' in a slightly different context. Would you disagree?

	A fourteen year old is a bit young.  But it only puts a very
slight damper on his greatness.  I feel that he can do whatever the
hell he (and his consenting partner(s)) want in the bedroom and it
doesn't matter one iota.  It does not detract from the his work in
writing the Declaration of Independence, it does not detract from his
architecture, his work on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, his
work in establishing the University of Virginia, etc, etc, etc.


	Does Maplethorpe's sexuality detract from his work as a
photographer? Does it change the context in which you should view
them?

	If your answers are different, what justifies the two
different answers?

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: Islam and apostacy
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:50:02 GMT

In article <43998@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>
>>The moment this child rejects the the Islamic faith 
>>and fails to fulfill his religious obligations, he is no longer considered a
>>Muslim.  
>	
>	A teenaged apostate was recently executed in
>	Saudi Arabia after he became an adult.
>	He indeed is no longer considered a Muslim, nor
>	even a human being.

I don't know the issues surrounding the particular case you're referring to.
But, in general, if someone kills someone and said that it is in the name
of Islam, does that mean that killing the innocent is sanctioned under Islamic
law?  Fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia are no more representative of Islam
today than militant Jewish fundamentalists are representative of Judaism.

>
>>To convert, you simply approach a Muslim (people 
>>typically go to the 'Emam of the nearest Mosque), express your sincere 
>>desire to become a Muslim, and verbally declare your solemn belief that
>>``There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.''
>>That's it.  It's that simple.
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	
>	It may be that simple to get in, but it is not  
>	that simple to get out.  Be forewarned,
>	if you change your mind and abandon Islam later on,
>	you may pay with your life.

I know a couple of Muslims who converted to Christianity, one is living
in the middle east and the other here in the US.  Both are alive and well.
I'm not an expert in Islamic Law, but my understanding is that this is an
extremely gray area.  I believe only a minority among the very hard core 
fundamentalists hold such views, and even then, the case you mentioned in
Saudi Arabia (if true) would be the first enforcement of this view I've 
heard of in my life time.

>Here is the relevant hadith,
>	kindly translated for me by an email correspondent.
>
>"The blood of a Muslim can only be spilt legally on one of three occasions:
>a married adulterer, a soul for a soul, and he who abandons his religion
>and leaves the congregation (of Muslims)."

I doubt the authenticity of this Hadith.  And, since you are such a great
expert on Islam, perhaps you can reconcile the alleged Hadith for me with 
(the authenticated) Hadith that says ``La `Ikrah fi al-Deen,'' which 
translates to ``There is NO Compulsion in Religion.''

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26360 talk.politics.soviet:10791 soc.culture.soviet:12480
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: leibowitz
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:32:19 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

You still haven't produced a shred of evidence to support the
notion that Yeshayahu Leibowitz supports the ideas in Epistle to
Yemen.

I've carefully read Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State:
have you? The tone of that book is completely at odds with that
of Epistle to Yemen. Yehoshafat Harkabi in Israel's Fateful Hour
reveals that religious nationalist extremists in Israel are
relying in part on some aspects of Maimonidian doctrine to
support their program of racism and messianic territorial
expansion. Leibowitz despises those currents in Israeli culture,
and he would have no truck whatever with the Maimonidian ideas
that are being used to fuel it.

Perhaps I'll write to Leibowitz myself to discover his opinions
on this matter directly. He just won a major prize in Israel,
btw, for his intellectual achievements. The Israeli cultural
elite seems to agree with me that he is a great man, although the
award enraged Shamir and Rabin.

As for the rest of your message it consists of wild personal
abuse that gives you the appearance of being an angry fanatic.
The quality of your thought processes can be ascertained by the
fact that you label me a Nietzschean solely on the basis of the
fact that I used Nietzsche and David Ben-Gurion as examples to
compare Christian identity with Jewish identity. In fact, I think
Nietzsche was a horse's ass, but he was the best example I could
think of someone who could hardly be defined as a Christian
despite the religion of his parents. But you are far too filled
up with rage to inquire carefully about what anyone really
thinks.

People like yourself, Mark David Kaufman, and some others here
are making a poor case indeed for Israel in the global
marketplace of ideas. Your rage and propensity for verbal abuse
just reinforce the negative impressions that the world community
has accumulated about Israel over the last decade or two. Keep it
up (you and everyone else like you), and just watch the
disintegration of good relations between Israel and the West
proceed apace.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Rumor is not always wrong.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: an3205@anon.penet.fi (ROI)
Subject: A Few Good Men (And Women :-)
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 06:47:56 GMT

isn't it time
for a new approach
to those same old problems?

subjecting the israeli government
to the magnitude of international criticism
brought down upon the british empire during india's struggle for independence!

maybe palestinians lack the emotional maturity and spiritual resolve
to face injustice without raising a hand in self-defense?

as foolish children doomed to hopeless struggle
they refused to change with the times.

cursed in the sight of their god
they suffer his awful wrath...

yet he loves them

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Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26226 soc.culture.turkish:14907 soc.rights.human:4972 soc.culture.greek:12489 soc.culture.europe:11389
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Marxism
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 21:16:11 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan25.233515.16257@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (michael kagalenko) writes:

>Yet another Argic ;

But to increase our level of intimacy, I will tell you about one
of mine: the Azeri Genocide.


           M A S S A C R E  I N  K H O J A L Y

Hostilities between  Armenia and Azerbaijan boil  over after some
200 civilians are slaughtered in a disputed enclave

While the details are argued, this much is  plain: something grim
and unconscionable  happened in  the Azerbaijani town  of Khojaly
two weeks ago.  So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis,  many of them
mutilated, have  been transported out  of the town  tucked inside
the Armenian-dominated enclave of  Nagorno-Karabakh for burial in
neighboring  Azerbaijan.  The  total   number  of  deaths  -  the
Azerbaijanis claim 1,324 civilians have been slaughtered, most of
them women and children - is unknown. But the explanation offered
by the  attacking Armenians,  who insist  that no  innocents were
deliberately killed, is hardly convincing.

Videotapes  circulated  by  the Azerbaijanis  include  images  of
defaced civilians, some of them scalped, others shot in the head.
Armenians claim the footage is fake. They insist that they left a
corridor open for civilians to flee Khojaly, but that Azerbaijani
soldiers led  a group 200 civilians  into harm's way. The  use of
surface-to-air missiles, artillery rockets  and armor proves that
both sides  are equipped with state-of-the-art  weapons that were
bequeathed  by,  sold by  or  stolen  from disintegrating  Soviet
units.

By Jill SMOLOWE

-Reported by Yuri ZARAKHOVICH/Moscow

SOURCE: TIME March 16, 1992

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: clinton's team
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:23:49 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Adam Shostack

You may recall I mentioned recently that Zionists no longer have
much insight into what power elites in the West and particularly
in the U.S. are really thinking about Israel. How this
unfortunate state of affairs came about is that emotional
pro-Israelists have been so intent on telling Americans what
they're SUPPOSED to think that they stopped listening to what
Americans really think years ago. Most non-Jewish Americans,
particularly in high places, stopped communicating their real
thoughts to the lobby long ago.

So now we have a situation in which the Israeli lobby is shocked
and upset with Clinton's foreign policy appointments (see
especially Fred Barnes' article on the contretemps in The New
Republic). Clinton's team shows every sign of merging the dreaded
traditions of Carter and Bush towards the Mideast in a
Democratic/Republican consensus. The lobby didn't have a clue the
appointments were coming: they fondly and foolishly imagined they
could stack the Clinton administration with ideologues of their
choice, like Steven Solarz.

In sum, I told you so. And you ain't seen nuthin yet. My read is
that AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents, in tandem with
Likud, have fundamentally and irreparably ruined the base of
positive support for Israel among a critical mass of influential
Americans. They're still going through the motions, but their
hearts aren't in it. I think more than anything else, they're
just plain tired of hearing about Israel and its never-ending
problems. It's a big planet out there, with many peoples with
many needs besides the Israelis. We all get our allotted quota of
tender loving care, and then it's adios, amigo. Enough.

Wayne
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Policy wonks do not create wealth.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: edonchin@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Emanuel Donchin)
Subject: SCOLA and Mabat
Summary: About Scola not broadcasting mabat anymore
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 04:50:22 GMT
Keywords: news Israel TV

I posted a detailed discussion of this issue in soc.culture.jewish so I
will not go here into much detail.

Briefly, I am trying to find out if there are other academic
institutions in which access was available, on a daily basis, to a
delayed broadcast of MABAT. 

If you dont know what I am talking about than yo are clearly not among
those I am seeking. If you used to, or knew of people who did, watch the
foreign news broadcasts provided via satellite by Scola you will know
that Israel was dropped from the group of about 40 countries whose news
broadcasts are available.

The problem apparently lies in the Israeli Boradcasting Authority and we
are tryuing to determine if our university was the only one in which
these broadcasts were used. The bigger the constituency the more likely
are we to get some attention from the IBA. 

Please respond my email to edonchin@s.psych.uiuc.edu

Manny Donchin

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: BUSH BOMBS ISLAMIC CONFERENCE TODAY
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:04:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.231229.28215@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam
Shostack) writes:

|>I have seen no motivation for attacking a hotel in downtown Baghdad
|>with a single cruise missile.  While the games Bush is playing may be
|>juvenile, I don't think he would order a hotel attacked.
|>
|>>But these theories, do not fit well with the anti-sceptic war games
|>>that these people would like to believe so they don't even consider them.
|>
|>Would you like to propose a theory for attacking a hotel full of
|>foriegn journalists?

Adam is under an unfortunate delusion, he beleives that George Bush is a
reasonable, honest politician with honourable motives. Unfortunately he is
probably the most evil man to be US president this century.

George Bush supported Saddam and did his damndest to discredit the alegations
that he gassed the Kurds. Before the gulf war Chomsky was just about the only
person oustide the Israel lobby that gave the report any creedence. After
Bashoft was murdered this began to change though.

George Bush was a strong proponent of supporting murderous regimes in
ElSalvador, Chile, Guatelmala (the list is very long) and of supporting a
terrorist campaign to restore one in Nicaragua. He even supported Pol Pot whose
crimes of genocide equal Hitlers, but for the fact that the Cambodian population
is rather less than the number that Hitler murdered Pol Pot would assuredly have
exceeded him.

If George Bush thought that bombing a hotel was to his advantage then he would
have it done. Don't be mislead by the propaganda about how great the
intelligence services are, they managed to bomb a baby food factory and have
always refused toadmit the possibility of a mistake.

Most people will of course accept that when you drop bombs on people a number of
them are likely to hit the wrong targets or targets which should not have been
targets. Bush and co tried to pretend that it is possible to run a sanitized war
in which only the baddies ever get hurt. It just aint so, Geroge knows that you
can't make an omlette withjout breaking eggs which is why he likes them.

Thank God the man is history now.


Side thought, how many T.p.m posters do you think the CIA holds files on?

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26139 talk.politics.soviet:10678
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Recalling in sorrow the silent memory of 2.5 million Muslim people.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:35:03 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <106039@netnews.upenn.edu> sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:

> Well, as you correctly guessed, I was afraid of 
> followups.

And there behind my desk, I seem to be returning to my source,
in a quiet way.

Source: Kazim Karabekir, "Istiklal Harbimiz," Istanbul, 1969.

p. 71.

"1. Those individuals who have escaped in order to save their lives, have
 reported that the Armenians have begun to destroy by massacres the
 Muslim inhabitants of Kagizman and its vicinity.

 2. The Armenians have attacked Kurudere, have killed 5 men and 3 women,
 and taken along 33 men, 1 bride, 1 girl, and 440 head of cattle.

 3. It is known that on July 4th, they attacked four villages under the
 jurisdiction of Akcakale between Kars and Oltu, and have killed all the
 inhabitants of one, and have taken 60 men from each other village, and
 butchered them. The Armenians who attacked these villages made use of
 five cannons, and seven machine guns. The Commander of this force was
 someone named Arshak.

 4. In the village of Yuzkus, the Armenians abducted the sister, wife,
 and daughter of a Muslim.

 5. The Armenians are continuing to massacre Muslims in the vicinity of
 Karakut." 

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


From: seshadri@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:41:57 GMT
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast

-/ hpindda:talk.politics.mideast / "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> / 12:04 pm  Jan 22, 1993 /

-Jews constitute an ethnic group in both the cultural and
-biological sense. Converts play a minuscule role in Jewish life.
-Judaism is a belief system which reinforces the ethnic character
-of Jews, through its biological symbology and restrictions on
-intermarriage.

-Muslims, Christians, and Buddhists do not constitute ethnic
-groups. Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are universalist belief
-systems which direct themselves to the human race at large
-without regard to ethnicity.

	If this is true, then that accounts for the incalculable
	harm the "universalist" religions have perpetrated on
	the rest of the people on this planet, whereas Judaism
	does not have any history of persecuting others. Instead
	of minding their own business, the "universalist" religions
	have harassed others into believing whatever trash they
	want to believe in - this has created unending conflict.

	I wish more religions would copy Judaism in this respect.

						Raghu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26309 soc.culture.greek:12571 alt.news.macedonia:253 soc.culture.turkish:15054 soc.rights.human:5012
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,rec.arts.books,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: hanif
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 18:31:24 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1jrumcINNqrf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

>>Bildigim kadariyla "hanif" cahiliye devrinde Hz. Ibrahim (as)'a
>>tabii olup, putlari reddedenlere deniyor.

>It is EXTREMELY bad form to print a message in Arabic and not translate 
>for the rest of us.

Ouri-ne. Your inability to distinguish between "Turkish" and "Arabic"
is truly amazing. It is not true, by the way, that mermaids do not
exist. One should wonder whether "perlmanian/visserian/wollian/kerenian"
are for real. As for the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim 
people by the Armenian Government between 1914 and 1920;


Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: CHINA EXPLOITING U.S. PATRIOT SECRETS
Summary: Look what I found
Date: 29 Jan 93 04:59:33 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide

I found this in soc.culture.china. Does anyone else remember the futile
debate on whether Israel supplied this technology to China? I would be
grateful if someone would mail me any conclusions (if any) that were reached

In article <1993Jan26.110358.4288@arizona.edu> raymond@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu (Raymond Man) writes:

>CHINA EXPLOITING U.S. PATRIOT SECRETS
>David A. Fulghum/Washington, Aviation week & Space Technology, Jan. 18, 1993
>
>China is using secretly acquired Patriot air defense missile technolgy to
>both upgrade cheaper, less effective Soviet-designed surface-to-air
>defense weapons and to develop ballistic missle reentry vehicle that can
>evade U.S. defensive systems, according to U.S. government analysts.
>[Approximately 30 column-inches article follows, full details in AW&ST, p.20]


Joseph Askew


-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  Barbarian horns draw out the northern wind;
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Paler than water lies the Thistle Pass;
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  Sky swallows up the road to Kokonor;
One China One Korea One Eire32  Moonlight, a thousand miles along the Wall.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast