HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sstover@sumax.seattleu.edu (   Kate   )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Advice:  A Love Sonnet
Date: 13 Nov 92 23:27:10 GMT
Organization: Seattle University

In article <341@uiunix.ui.org> donz@ui.org (Don Zirilli) writes:
>In article <5741@sumax.seattleu.edu) I had written:
>>Petrarchan or Italian sonnet, iambic pentameter dominating rhythm
>>
>>either		or		or
>>/		/		/
>>c		c		c
>>d		d		d
>>c		e		e
>>d		c		e
>>c		d		d
>>d		e		c
>
>Dearest Kate,
>
>Are you sure about this?  I was under the impression that you could juggle
>those c d e rhymes any which way you wished.  I certainly wouldn't take
>offense if someone did.

The early form actually called for either cdcdcd or cdecde.  Modern
renditions, and some other poets following Petrarch, juggled them; 
Norton (and of course Marek will have large cows about my appeal to
authority, but I am magnanimous and will endure) says that the first two
were the Petrarchan convention and the rest followed afterward.  *I* don't
have a problem with juggling them. :)

>Yours,
>
>Posthumous O'Toole, Defender of the Realm

Likewise,

Kate.
--
       Sheryl Stover  %  If you ask me what I have come to do in the world,
  & Hemingway & Clio  %  I who am an artist, I will reply: "I am here to
sstover@seattleu.edu  %  live aloud."                    -Emile Zola
From: beh@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (various Howellses)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: another spur of the moment thing
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:53:08
Organization: Internet access via the Free Software Foundation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu


He, like Joe, said 
"Write about what you know"
or some such thing, and so

la storia mia e breve...

I don't sew flowers onto 
dresses, stitching my life
tiny lovers' knot by tiny lovers' knot.

I don't cause artists to rise up 
in awe, to beg a sitting,
or a photograph.

I don't cause men to swoon,
neither with my words,
nor with my face, 
nor with my body,
nor with my body's talents.

I don't take men 
to my arms at nights,
unless you count my one
beloved,
and then only he for a 
short time.

la storia mia e breve

and I sing.

sometimes.

well.

and sometimes

not at all.

--Nancy Howells
(beh@gnu.ai.mit.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: dmcheste@quads.uchicago.edu (dennis michael chester)
Subject: 2 poems
Summary: just 2 poems
Keywords: poems,poetry,poet,poesy,posies,posers,post-its,poverty
Reply-To: dmcheste@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:04:38 GMT


This is my first post. Ever. I hope it works out.  C&C is appreciated.         


	"Source"

	Bukowski, Tom Waits, and Keith Richards are in
	a room with
	6 bottles of whiskey
	2 bullets
	and some cheap wine


	Buk calls me up
	when he gets down
	to the wine.




	"Dirty Rich Kids"
	
	Dirty rich kids ride
	in evil smelling
	       convertibles
	their
	angular
	       hair
	           points
	at TILTed
	pin  ball  sky.

	Pavement pulls back
	     ,hisses,
	CRACKS
	 beneath

	Dirty rich kids
	groping the wheel
	bright lights
	     and a full tank






Enjoy,
      D. Chester
	
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: sheilah@wam.umd.edu (Sheila Herndon)
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:02:32 GMT

In article <NIKOLAY.92Nov8132855@husc10.harvard.edu> nikolay@husc10.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev) writes:
>ramakris@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Balaji Ramakrishnan) writes:
>
>Why is all poetry _about_ the uniqueness of anything -
>about every moment being unlike any other; about any new 
>home being something different; about beauties inimitable,
>et cetera - always such unpardonable trash? 



It isn't.
-- 
I am always wrong. Don't believe me ever.
stark raving sane  sheilah@wam.umd.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: wprovinc@zeus.calpoly.edu (William E. Province)
Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED (Is poetry luxury?)
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1992 18:09:07 GMT

conrad@kryton.UUCP (Konstatin Kalikanzaros) writes:
>wprovinc@zeus.calpoly.edu (William E. Province) writes:
>
>> casteley@phil.ruu.nl (Eric Casteleyn) writes:
>> 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >      hello once more,
>> > 
>> > 
>> >   I recently overheard someone say that poetry is a luxury item. In-
>> > tuitively I disagreed, but I've had some trouble putting together a 
>> > definitive article to prove him wrong. Maybe he was right. Maybe I'm
>> > stupid. I sincerely hope the latter.
>> >
>> [bs by wprovinc deleted...]
>> 
>>    I can not speak for every one else, but for me, poetry is
>> a necessity.  I write poetry for the same reason that I learned
>> how to speak, and _only_ if you could consider speaking a 
>> luxury can you consider poetry a luxury.
>> 
>>   -- bill
>
>Perhaps some clarifaction is the writing of poetry considered a luxury
>or the buying of poetry collections or perhaps just the time to read
>poetry?  
>

    Let's see how far I can push this metaphor :
        I write poetry for the same reason that I learned how to speak.
        I listen to/read poetry for the same reason that I learned how
        to understand the spoken words of others.

  -- bill
From: jcg2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JASON GIRARD)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Life at Lehigh
Date: 7 Nov 92 05:41:07 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University


         (the following was not meant to classify all students at Lehigh
         University [just most of 'em])

                            <Life at Lehigh>

         People down here seem strange ot me
         As I'm sure I do to them
         But it doesn't matter to me :)
         They all seem the same
         While I try to be myself

         The other guys try to be the macho jock-type
         That they know the girls will like
         They try to impress the girls
         With stories of cunning and astonishing feats

         The girls, on the other hand, are so giddy
         They like to be wherever the fun is
         They act as though they're expecting something from me
         Like they're above me
         Like I'm a servant

         I can only gaze at these people
         And wonder what makes them so great
         Maybe I should follow in their footsteps...
         Nah, I'll just watch

11/7/92
J.G.
jcg2@lehigh.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED (Is poetry luxury?)
From: conrad@kryton.UUCP (Konstatin Kalikanzaros)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:08:41 PST
Organization: Paradox Alley F&SF BBS 805-492-8789

nikolay@husc10.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev) writes:

> wprovinc@zeus.calpoly.edu (William E. Province) writes:
> >>> 
> >>>    I can not speak for every one else, but for me, poetry is
> >>> a necessity.  I write poetry for the same reason that I learned
> >>> how to speak, and _only_ if you could consider speaking a 
> >>> luxury can you consider poetry a luxury.
> >>> 
> >>>   -- bill
> >>

     contrary to nikolay's quoter i wrote what follows

> >>Perhaps some clarifaction is the writing of poetry considered a luxury
> >>or the buying of poetry collections or perhaps just the time to read
> >>poetry?  
> >>
> 
      But Bill wrote this

> >     Let's see how far I can push this metaphor : I write poetry for
> > the same reason that I learned how to speak.  I listen to/read
> > poetry for the same reason that I learned how to understand the
> > spoken words of others.
> >   -- bill
> 

     Nikolay wrote this drivel 

> Arrrrghhh! Aren't you people thick of meaningless, 
> motheaten metaphors? Universal human functions have 
> no inherent aesthetic value. Bill, you must either 
> be under 18 years of age or a gentle, mellow moron.
> 
> Philip Nikolayev
> nikolay@husc.harvard.edu

   And I wrote the rest

   I still lack the clarification I asked for.  I disagree that
universal human functions have no inherent aesthetic values.  The light
of comprehension appearing on someones face can be truly beautiful. 
That aside, my opinion is that poetry and art are indeed luxuries.  We
no longer have to spend MOST of our time gathering food and searching
for shelter.  Only when THOSE needs are satisfied do we have the
bandwidth left over for poetry and art.  I am talking society here NOT
the individual.  Art evolved as part of the survival drive so I may be
wrong here.  You have to go farther back than the paleolithic to
determine if it is indeed a luxury.  As always your mileage may vary!
conrad



____________________________________________________________________________
Reality is for people that can't handle Science fiction.
From: ralph@wixer.cactus.org (Ralph Cherubini)
Subject: Poem--Everything
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 21:19:27 GMT


                                Everything

                Just a few words with you
                is all I want
                your patience
                as I recite the history of the universe
                it all started you see
                with light
                which clung to darkness to exist
                and the love between them created heat
                which expanded into the cosmos
                like a giant genie stretching awake
                and it will all contract
                eventually
                once it decides to sleep
                some more.




-- 
ralph@wixer.cactus.org
cactus.org!wixer!ralph
From: blosser_cy@lrc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: please ignore--sentimental rambling
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:32:12 EST
Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC

where there were once kind words and a smile
you offer no more than a glance.
silence and stagnant memories of the past is
all that lies between us now.
when i see you i try not to remember and yet
i still think about you and when you're hurt
i feel your pain all the more. 
i was happier when i didn't care.......i was 
happier when i didn't know.
again i put my faith in words knowing that i
will lose and lose again, and how many times
will i feel the dull ache of betrayal before
i realize it's not worth it?

.................life kills.
From: sstover@sumax.seattleu.edu (Maven o'Mirth)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Punctuation?
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:24:51 GMT
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA

In article <1992Nov5.163259.15532@doug.cae.wisc.edu> mccullou@cae.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>I know that many people who I have done C&C for on poetry will jump on
>me for asking, but does anyone have any thoughts as to the value of
>punctuation in poetry?  I got into a mild argument with some people 
>(nothing new for me I know), who seemed to think that punctuation isn't
>really needed at all.  I hold to the belief that it really helps the
>poem to have proper punctuation, but can anyone argue the other side?
>Or some alternate viewpoint?  Lets not hold ourselves to two valued
>logic here.
>:)M^2

For better or for worse, Sheryl takes a deep breath and enters another fray...

What works for me: proper punctuation and grammatical structure.  Not that
it has to be *traditional*; it must be consistent however or I lose my
concentration.  IN MY OPINION (defendants of the opposite viewpoint need
not appear in person at my doorstep) a poem which intentionally misuses
punctuation or grammar does so to draw attention to itself, often when it
would not otherwise warrant attention.  I don't see that as mastery of the
form, but that's because I see the form as mastery of words and their
arrangement which leads to inventive and new ideas, and not the other way
around.

I think I ought to comment that grammatical or punctuational structure may
be shown, in poetry, in more than one way; e e cummings is a master of
perfect grammar and punctuation though he is as likely to use a line break
or form structure as a comma or capital letter in order to imply the
correct form.  I can't think, offhand, of a well-known poet who does
otherwise (even if they leave out caps, punctuation, etc).  

My .02.  Fire away.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.     . *~*}    Sheryl Stover           | "The Republicans were right! We're
   .    *~*}    sstover@seattleu.edu    | all gettin' sucked down a cesspool
 . *  . *~*}    (& Hemingway & Clio)    | of depravity and bad manners! Time
 *    . *~*}    Medici in the studio in | for action!! We'll stop it cold!!!
.  .    *~*}    December                | Get goin! Okay! sit down, shut up,
    *   *~*}                            | and do the family values thing!!"
 .    . *~*}                            |		-Opus

Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: Blistering Flame: Response from the Author
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:40:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.201318.27308@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jjimenez@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joel A Jimenez) writes:

>As far as thought being lost in her eyes, this is where your criticism loses
>it's grasp of the poem.  The emotion behind this poem is a love
>typical of that of the Romantic poets.  You are confusing love with
>lust.  
>Yes, there are still some of us out here who know the difference.  

Hmmm....I'll admit that there may be a difference, but...

>I use eyes not to be socially
>acceptable, but only because the eyes suggest a level of admiration and
>attraction higher than the purely physical.

Higher?  At least you didn't say 'merely physical'....but your
sentiments, though sweet, are not universal.

>Once again, you confuse love with lust.  Yes, I'm sure the speaker would like
>to do those things, but I disagree with your statement.  The speaker, although
>human, would still like to simply hold her within his arms more than anything
>else.  Holding is not hugging.  I think most people know that holding
>implies a bit more.

Huh?  You're assuming a hell of a lot about what other people know.
I'd pretty much equate holding and hugging....now caressing, stroking,
fondling - those are something else entirely.
>
>                          - Joel A. Jimenez
>
>By the Way:  If your thoughts on love are mirrored by what you wrote in your
>             response, maybe you should stick to writing about salads.


btw, yourself - I thought Marek was kind of hard on you to begin with,
and throughout this article you've been fairly polite and objective,
even if I disagree with you, but I'm afraid that postscript kinda blew
it.  You deserve whatever you get......as, no doubt, all of us do.

 - Mary Anne
-- 
More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads.  One
path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.  The other to total
extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
						 - Woody Allen
From: sharon@netlabs.com (Sharon Hopkins)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: the lone dino / Marek
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:18:21 GMT
Organization: NetLabs, Inc.

In article <1dfl21INN3nt@mozz.unh.edu> marek@msel.unh.edu (Marek Lugowski) writes:
>		the lone dino
>		-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>		you used to
>		stalk the high plains
>		of deconstruction
>		in feathers (and tar)
>		leaving huge imprints
>		and mangled readers
>		the rex, poetry tsar.
>		
>		O where have you gone

Yo, they on tv now, not far
from tar,

really.

--Sharon
From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: yeah, so I tell you this, so you know
Keywords: no charge
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:03:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov12.170329.20894
Reply-To: zola@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington




I have got some good tips, various offers
and someplace to go for free stuff
But when my mother told me nothing was for free
she didn't also mention that things can
be had for the free price of credit check
they just look you up, and if you have not
had a felony they give you stuff, almost like
for free, but not really, see because the people
who give you free stuff somehow know about
the other people who give you free stuff
I don't know how they know, but somewhere along
the line if you don't pay the price your
mother comes over and says "hey, didn't I tell you
you don't get nothin' free?"  Yeah well, I tell 
her, I know some places to get free stuff, 
really free stuff.

12.11.92
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Hard Times
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 06:55:25 GMT

Hard Times

His father drank.
His mother never spoke.
His brother used to hit him.
A lot.

He was too smart.
The other kids hated him.
The teachers were afraid to be nice to him.
Ever.

He had one friend.
They were either fighting or hanging out.
His priest thought he was gay.
Really close.

He made it to college.
Lost his friend along the way.
Lost his brother to another guy, and AIDS.
Almost alone.

He met her at a party.
She smiled at him, really smiled.
He raped her in her bedroom.
An excuse?

*****

M.A. Mohanraj
November 7, 1992

(Yes, yet another rape poem.  Comments and critique very welcome)
-- 
More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads.  One
path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.  The other to total
extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
						 - Woody Allen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Should we Hang all the Critics?
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 23:41:27 GMT

In article <BxF7FG.3tp@DMI.USherb.CA> tourf00@DMI.USherb.CA (Francis Tourillon <Tourfman>) writes:
>nikolay@husc10.harvard.edu (Philip Nikolayev) pretend que ==>
>>ramakris@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Balaji Ramakrishnan) writes:

[a poem]

And Philip writes:

[an overly harsh, but fairly accurate, IMO, critique]

And Francis replies:

>I'd suggest Philip to not suggest.  Please let this guy write what he thinks.
>Poetry like every other form of art does not deserve to be suggested by others.

Now, I'm confused.  How is Philip preventing anybody from writing
anything?  He's critiquing - his privilege.  If you publish anything
anywhere you should be prepared for people to comment on it.  If you
honestly don't want to hear suggestions, you can say so, but people
are under no obligation to listen.

Plus, I would claim that unless you listen to the comments of others,
your writing will never improve.

Critics are essential to art.  I myself, am a horrible, horrible
critic.  So I generally don't.  But I do think we need them, and
invite any and all to comment, suggest, butcher my writings....whether
they be poetry, fiction, essays, or prosletyzing. :-)

"No man is an island....."

				 - John Donne (I believe)

 - Mary Anne
-- 
More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads.  One
path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.  The other to total
extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
						 - Woody Allen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: ralph@wixer.cactus.org (Ralph Cherubini)
Subject: Poem--Teacher
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 23:41:05 GMT


                               Teacher

                He stood at the blackboard
                and pontificated entertainingly
                sounded like Mozart
                infinitely at ease
                while he kept moving
                playing with his hands during brief silences
                uncomfortable for us all
                each period ended with a radically new discovery
                uncovered for the first time
                before our very I's
                everything was vidotaped by the university
                which had scores of lesser minds
                mining the latest ore
                his last discovery
                demonstrated before his final class
                on the terminal day of the semester
                was to demonstrate that matter and energy
                energy and matter
                are functionally related
                he went out in an explosion of light.





-- 
ralph@wixer.cactus.org
cactus.org!wixer!ralph
From: wachtel@canon.co.uk (Tom Wachtel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: wachtel@canon.co.uk
Organization: Canon Research Centre Europe Ltd

tourf00@DMI.USherb.CA (Francis Tourillon <Tourfman>) writes:


> Poetry like every other form of art does not deserve to be suggested
> by others.


	art deserves suggestion


-- 

Tom Wachtel (wachtel@canon.co.uk)
From: jessop@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Class Dinosauria)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving dinner...
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:07:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: rdg.1992Nov8.160717.7781
Reply-To: jessop@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Class Dinosauria)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


>>	'Saurian flesh 'tween greasy lips,
>>	Tasty meat both dark and light,
>
>>	...Belly full of turkey sleep...
>
>Saurian flesh???!!!
>You're eating dinosaurs?  Lizards?
>I mean, it's a pretty line, but I'm pretty damn sure that turkeys are
>*not* saurians.

Hi Mary Anne...

	I'm one of those "progressive" dinosauroligist types...  :)

	As far as I am (and many paleontologists) are concerned, Birds
	ARE the direct descendents of DINOSAURS...  hence "'saurian."

	-Mike
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: jchien@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jennifer Crystal Fang-Chien)
Subject: the pebbled rooftop / jchien
Organization: The Land of Flowers (Stanford U.)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 21:14:01 GMT



	the pebbled rooftop


	these sharp outlines of the buildings
	beyond the air-clean glass
	incised so fine as to defy nature 
	are like the precise instrument-drawn covers
	of science fiction novels depicting cities

	architecture comprises of not
	only geometry and structural engineering
	but aspens and poplar
	leaning just so
	over the white rubble rooftops

	in midsummer
	these rooftops are cool to lie upon
	(at least compared to the skin-searing black
	asphalt that smells like processed petroleum)
	basking in glory
	proceeds as the air-conditioned students within
	kick restlessly
	their bodies confined by wooden desks

	jeremy (the kid who used to run to my house
	for protection from childhood gangs)
	fantasized about screwing 
	on a white rooftop
	the small rocks would have abraded his buttocks
	but that wouldn't be a distraction
	since the last time he was seen he was
	exhaling smoke into two model blondes' ears
	between bites
	of nachos in taco bell

	i dream about rooftops
	white pebbled
	covering the horizons
	until
	every step lands on
	a small part of that universal architecture



				--jennifer crystal chien
				c/c email appreciated =)



Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
From: moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne)
Subject: Re: Advice:  A Love Sonnet
Reply-To: moh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:00:18 GMT

Kate, Postie?  Anyone really?

Do us a favor and post the rhyme scheme for Shakespearean and
Petrarchan?
And isn't there one more?

I find that my English major skills are sadly failing...

Mary Anne, who remembers iambic pentameter, the natural rhythm of
English, but no more.
-- 
More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads.  One
path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.  The other to total
extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
						 - Woody Allen
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems