HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rbw3q@rayleigh.mech.Virginia.EDU (Brad Whitehurst)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:09:05 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Virginia

In article <JON.93Jan22105248@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.170850.18883@wixer.cactus.org> doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny) writes:
>
>   Which style of roll do you use ? ( C-to-C, screw, sweep ? )
>   How did you learn it ( Class, friend, book, divine inspiration, etc.?) and
>   when, and where ?
>
>About three years ago, I learned to roll in a kayaking class taught
>here at the U of Utah.  We were taught the sweep roll.  A few of us
>who caught on quickly were taught the C-to-C, but I never use it in
>rivers.  I can get up using the C-to-C, but not without extending my
>elbow away from my body to get more leverage.  I have weak shoulders,
>and this position is too dangerous for me in a river.  I don't have
>trouble doing a sweep roll with my elbows close to my side.
>
	I first learned a sweep roll in the pool (taught by a UofU
alumnus no less!) but didn't use it for a year.  I came back to the
pool to practice the next year and just couldn't put it together.
After drinking half the pool, I gave up and had the guy teach me a C
to C.  It seemed to click better...not bombproof yet (I get a little
confused upside down still), but pretty reliable.  My main problem is
that I sometimes toss myself all the way over the other side w/ too
much hipsnap.  Still haven't got the sweep.  Anyway, I don't see any
way of doing the CtoC w/o extending the throat arm, but I don't put a
lot of pressure on it, myself.  The other arm is tucked right against
the boat.

-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:19:42 GMT
Organization: Ditka Policy Institute

In article <JON.93Jan22105248@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
>Does this reflect a weakness in the C-to-C method, or does it just
>reflect my lack of practice?  Can anyone out there do a C-to-C while
>keeping the elbows in?

Hmm, I think it's just a reflection of the roll's strong and weak points.
I can do a C-to-C on the left (my "on" side) without getting my left arm
too far out, but I have problems keeping that end of the paddle from being
swept over and behind my head -- not a good situation!  On the other hand,
having my arm up and out there tends to protect my face a bit...I hope. :-)

I'm spending some time this winter learning the sweep roll as well as
working on my off-side roll.  I'm convinced that The Best Roll is the
one you hit reliably in order to avoid swimming whitewater.  Whether it's
the C-to-C, sweep, screw, or inverse pirouette capistrano backflip, if
it gets the hull down and deck up, it's probably The Best Roll.

---Rsk
From: ark@access.digex.com (Art Kramer)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Kayaking in Mobile
Date: 28 Jan 1993 11:34:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com
Keywords: kayak, kayaking, ocean


I have a friend who lives in Mobile and owns an ocean kayak (surkshi). 
She's looking to find out if there's anybody within striking distance of
Mobile who also has one, who'd be interested in getting together.   

So...

Anybody know of someone who fits the bill?  

Any clubs, etc. in the Mobile area that do ocean kayaking?

If so, pls send me e-mail.  I'll pass the info on.  (She doesn't have
Internet access.)


Thx!

Art
ark@access.digex.com
From: luden@lehigh.edu (Dean E. Nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:01:27 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University Computing Center

In article <1993Jan21.170807.295@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au> 
bartle@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au writes:

>In article <1993Jan18.083957.2461@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>, f_speerjr@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>> I'm an old, experienced boater, and a good swimmer. Have just acquired
>> low-volume sea kayak and want to learn to roll it. (It's clear that's an
>> essential skill to use it safely.)
>> 
>> I have no access to instructors or experienced persons. In shallow water, with
>> helpers standing by, I've learned to get out (and back in) upside-down, and
>> have "almost" managed to get the cotton-picking thing back upright (but not
>> quite).
>> 
>> Any suggestions for self-instruction?? Thanks!

>Well I've never paddled a sea kayak before, but I have paddled lots of
>other kayaks, so this may be of some help -- its how we teach them to
>roll in our club:

>      - keep looking down (whether you've got your eyes open or not)

I kinda learned to roll on my own, and I found that if I watched my blade
during my sweep, then my body would tend to go in the right direction, and
my head would stay down until after my hip snap.

>      - keep leaning back

It also made me lean back.

>      - start sweeping from the front with a feathered blade
>      - keep feathering your blade back and forth ON THE SURFACE of
>                the water, and as far OUT from your boat as 
>                you can manage

>And keep trying!

Its a *lot* easier to keep trying in a pool with a mask for good vision
and to keep water out of your nose.

>There are probably some special styles that may be more effective in sea
>kayaks -- but that is what I would try on my first attempt anyway

>                               - PeterB

Dean Nelson  den0@lehigh.edu
From: billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:15:47 GMT
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle

There was a really funny article a few months back in
one of the paddling magazines by a kayak instructor.

At the end of his anecdotal experiences with beginning
kayakers he says that basically there are only three
faults to not making it up:  paddle dives, head comes
up to soon, no hip snap.  

Having recently worked with some teenage boys at the
pool, I'll have to echo the writers' sentiments about the
feeling of repeating oneself.

Normally a beginner can remember one of these
three things, but has trouble doing them all at once.

So I suggest, you practice each one separately.

1) Hip snap:  Find something you can grab onto
   (preferably the edge of a warm pool) and
   practice your hip snap and keeping your
   chin tucked down on your shoulder as you come up.
   An excellent way to practice this is with
   a partner and to practice eskimo rescues.
   The other partner can monitor your head
   to make sure it's not coming up too soon.

2) Paddle sweeps:  Practice skimming the blade
   on the surface of the water.  As you get
   better, lean into the skimming and use
   the planing force to keep yourself upright.
   With a partner, do a dry run underwater--
   that is, do your sweep and unwind your
   torso but don't try to come up, just 
   work on the proper angle of the sweeping
   blade.  At the end of the dry run have
   your partner roll your kayak back up.

3) Head comes up last: Tuck your cheek down against 
   your shoulder and follow the sweeping paddle blade 
   with your eyes.  To exaggerate leaning back, try
   to end the roll with the back of your head
   on the rear deck and your eyese looking skyward.


Other general tips:  Narrow (22"-) whitewater kayaks with
round bilges (so called 'expert' boats) are much
easier to roll than wide (25"+) kayaks with angular bilges.
(Last night at the pool we taught a very nervous young 
lady to roll in a Dagger CrossFire.)  Goggles, nose plugs,
warm watter, and a spotter make things go faster and
more pleasant.  Excercise designed to improve rotational
and bending strength in the midsection are highly recommended.
Also, a tight fitting kayak with a low rear deck and
thigh braces can make things rolling easier.  Once you
learn the motions of a roll in a small, narrow, whitewater
kayak you can move on to those barges they call sea kayaks.

Be patient.  Even when you don't succeed in coming up 
completely you are still making progress towards your goal.
If you're over 40, like me, it takes a LOT of practice.

-bill
From: bartle@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Rolling sessions
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:13:49 +1000
Organization: BHP Research - Melbourne Laboratories

In article <1993Jan18.184018.3752@brtph560.bnr.ca>, rlarsen@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen P220) writes:
> How many of you have access to rolling sessions in a indoor
> pool during the winter?
> 
> I am a member of the Carolina Canoe Club (CCC). They have rolling
> sessions in a City pool once a week during the winter. This is a great
> way to keep in shape or learn to roll.
> 
> Note: I do not have E-mail.
 
A much better way is to play CANOE POLO -- which we do all over Australia,
New Zealand, Europe,...

But I didn't hear of it anywhere when I was in US last year

So what's your story ???
                               - Peter B
From: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:01:13 GMT
Reply-To: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Something which I found to solve my tendency to raise my head too soon
and roll back down, was to look down, which, when one is already upside
down, means towards the bottom of the river.  Everytime I screw up a
roll, when I regroup and look to the river bottom at the start of my
sweep and hip snap, my head comes out last and the roll is good.

The above, of course, does not preclude the need for a correct sweep
and a good hip snap, but can help stop the "almost made it" rolls where
the head comes out of the water too soon.

P.S.  As for self-instruction, my brother-in-law read a book on kayaking
when he was a teen (years ago), borrowed a boat, and went down to the
Potomac to try it out.  In an afternoon, this intense and persistent
guy figured out the roll and was off to the races.  His second river
was the lower Yough and he was one of the first down the Gauly.
Good Luck!
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz)
Subject: Whitewater Rafting in '96 Olympics?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 22 Jan 93 02:14:38 GMT

	Was it just a wild rumor or is there some possibility that
whitewater rafting would be included in the 1996 summer Olympics.  If so,
I need to start training now.  Where's my beer anyway?
-dennis
From: cliff@geronimo.eece.unm.edu (Cliff Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Idaho boating info
Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:20:38 GMT
Organization: BDM Federal (Boulder, CO)
Distribution: USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: geronimo.eece.unm.edu

I'm considering accepting a position in Boise, Idaho.
If anyone has some info on clubs in the area and location
of slalom gates, I'd appreciate any info via e-mail or tele.

Cliff
cliff@geronimo.eece.unm.edu
(303) 541-3164 wk
(303) 666-8988 hm
From: kristian@cs.uchicago.edu (Kristian Simsarian)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Keywords: kayaks rolling
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:17:32 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Chicago

>>Which style of roll do you use ? ( C-to-C, screw, sweep ? )
>>How did you learn it ( Class, friend, book, divine inspiration, etc.?) and
>>when, and where ?
>


	I do this bursting shoulder-wrenching sweep roll.  I am
currently trying to develop a bullet-proof C-to-C by improving my
hip-snap by a few orders of magnitude.  I think the C-To-C is probably
the better of the 3 main rolls, since you end up come up in a good
position to roll again if you go down again and also in a very stable
low brace if done correctly.

	I am currently practising in the pool with the Chicago Whitewater
Association (no, it is not entirely an Oxymoron - we do have some class
III about 1.5 hours away on the Vermillion).   ;)


	To Todd Leigh: My mailer won't talk to your mailer, i.e. mail
gets sent back.  Thanks for turning me on to the CWA - we even have a
group of 6 people from the UofC Outdoors club taking pool lessons this
Winter.






















-- 
Kristian T. Simsarian			University of Chicago AI Laboratory
email: kristian@cs.uchicago.edu		CS Dept. Chicago, IL 60637
From: agodwin@acorn.co.uk (Adrian Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Events calendar ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:58:51 GMT
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, UK

I'm hoping to visit the U.S. in April (possibly northern California, but 
not sure yet) on holiday : can anyone recommend any 'must see' paddler's
events to spend a day or so at ? Exhibitions, competitions, popular
visiting sites, whatever ...

-adrian
From: hudson@cs.umass.edu (Rick Hudson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:40:24 GMT
Reply-To: hudson@cs.umass.edu
Organization: Dept of Comp and Info Sci, Univ of Mass (Amherst)
NNTP-Posting-Host: yough.ucc.umass.edu
In-reply-to: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu's message of 22 Jan 93 17:52:48 GMT

>>>>> On 22 Jan 93 17:52:48 GMT, jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) said:

Jonathan> In article <1993Jan21.170850.18883@wixer.cactus.org> doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny) writes:

Jonathan> About three years ago, I learned to roll in a kayaking class taught
Jonathan> here at the U of Utah.  We were taught the sweep roll.  A few of us
Jonathan> who caught on quickly were taught the C-to-C, but I never use it in
Jonathan> rivers.  I can get up using the C-to-C, but not without extending my
Jonathan> elbow away from my body to get more leverage.  I have weak shoulders,
Jonathan> and this position is too dangerous for me in a river.  I don't have
Jonathan> trouble doing a sweep roll with my elbows close to my side.

Jonathan> Does this reflect a weakness in the C-to-C method, or does it just
Jonathan> reflect my lack of practice?  Can anyone out there do a C-to-C while
Jonathan> keeping the elbows in?

Actually it reflects a weakness in the teaching of the roll. Like most
strokes in a kayak the motion comes from rotating the torso, not extending
the elbow. Unfortunately, since the motion is done underwater you have no
easy way to mimic better paddlers.

While I am not an instructor (though I have played one on the NET) my personal
roll sets up like everyone elses, I then start my sweep (by rotating my torso)
and at about 45 degrees (or sooner) do my hip snap. This is a much faster
roll, and is more dynamic, and keeps everything in front of me (including my
elbow). 
--

       Richard L. Hudson  -  Hudson@cs.umass.edu; (413) 545-1220; 
       Advanced Languages Project - University Computing Services
       Lederle Graduate Research Center
       University of Massachusetts             Amherst, MA  01003
       "Unix and C are the ultimate computer viruses." - R. Gabriel
From: brianj@bedrock.cs.umd.edu (Brian Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Urban River restrictions
Date: 24 Jan 93 02:20:10 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Univ. of MD, College Park, MD 20742
In-reply-to: M14661@mwvm.mitre.org's message of 22 Jan 93 14:55:11 GMT

I had a police escort over a small dam (6') on Rock Creek in D.C., all
twelve times in a row that we ran it that day:-)  Said he'd kick us
off if he could but he couldn't.  Next time I was going to run the
creek I stopped to sign in a the police station (previous officer had
told us to do this), new cop said I had to register at the main office
(not by river) between 9-3 on weekdays!  Didn't run that day as my
buddies showed up an hour late and I was gone.  Cop gave them same
bullshit, but they had actually tried to register between 9-3 on Friday
and found out there was nobody to register with!  What a crock.

My opinion is that since there is no reason why urban officials should
want you to run a river, they tell you not to if they feel like it.
This particular river (Rock Creek) is under the jurisdiction of the
park police, and since they have nothing to do but police THEIR park,
boaters are a nuisance.  The little dam (from an old grain mill) could
be dangerous, and I probably only complain a bit if they put that few
feet of river out of bounds.  The rest of the river is mild.
--
Brian Johnson                                       Computer Science Department
brianj@cs.umd.edu                                        University of Maryland
(301) 405-2725                                           College Park, Md 20742

  ...there are no strangers in this world, only friends who have never met...
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: donb@crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen)
Subject: Ozarks
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:42:49 GMT

	Does any one have any good suggestions of guide books, rivers,
etc for teh Ozarks of southern Missouri?

	DonB
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: rigg@valeron.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Subject: Rename rec.boats.paddle to rec.outdoors.boats.paddle
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Madison, Chemical Engineering
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:37:41

Recently, an official RFD (Request For Discussion) was posted to
several group suggesting that several groups be moved to the
rec.outdoors. hierarchy which currently contains just
rec.outdoors.fishing.

If you have any comments about renaming this group, please post them
to news.groups.  Followups to this group and email will not be
considered.  The guidelines state that the official discussion must
take place in news.groups.

tim
--
    ...  Then they came for me,
	   and by that time there was no one
	     left to speak up for me. (Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945)

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: michael@vulcan.mcs.anl.gov (Bret Michael)
Subject: kayakers in the Chicago area
Summary: Springtime paddling near Chicago
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory, Chicago, Illinois
Distribution: chi
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:15:58 GMT

I've heard there are some good rivers in Wisconsin for kayaking.
I'm fairly new to the area and would appreciate any information
on kayaking in Illinois and/or Wisconsin.

Bret Michael
michael@mcs.anl.gov
(708)252-9559
From: wjl+@pitt.edu (William J Layton)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Date: 22 Jan 93 11:29:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


C    Hi!
          I'd like to echo one poster's comment regarding canoe polo-
       What a blast!!!!! and if you play outside in winter it sure
            helps in mastering your roll!!
             Does anyone on this group know if it is played in the US at all??

    
          Concerning rolls, if you dont have a teacher-be very careful not
         to try to muscle your boat up,you can possibly injure your shoulder.
           To add one more bit of confusion... I find that its helpful to
        try to START the roll with a hip snap and END it with your brace!
          One way to learn this is to look UP then begin the roll by 
          turning your head to look down-your hips will follow your head.
            Also, renmember to take a breath as you go over!

     Have fun 
       Bill Layton


             Concerning rolly

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Summary: C-to-C Roll
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 18:42:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.153848.304@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au>
   bartle@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au writes:
>BTW -- What does C-to-C stand for?

It's called a "C-to-C" roll because of the motion of the paddler's body
during the roll.  You perform the C-to-C roll in three steps:

  1. Setup.  With your torso tucked tightly forward and slightly to one
     side, raise both knuckles and the paddle out of the water with the
     paddle shaft parallel to the boat.  You must rotate your front wrist
     so that the front blade is flat above the water and the power face
     is down.

  2. Sweep.  Keeping the front blade as high as possible, sweep it out so
     that the paddle shaft is perpendicular to the boat.  Sweeping the
     paddle out to ninety degrees with the front blade close to the surface
     forces you to bend your body sharply to one side.  This is the first
     "C" position.

  3. Hipsnap.  Keeping your head and torso low, rapidly rotate the boat
     upright with your hips.  If the paddle is in the proper position
     ("front" blade high and flat), and if you keep your head low until
     the boat is upright (bring your head up *last*), you will roll upright!
     Note that the hipsnap causes you to rapidly bend your body to the side
     opposite the first "C" position; this is the second "C".

Barry Shelton                                        Question Authority!
barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com                   Resist much, obey little.

Standard disclaimer.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny)
Subject: Urban River restrictions
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:29:26 GMT


The Austin (TX) City Council has just passed an emergency ordinance
restricting access to flooded waters.   Part of the ordinance allows the Fire
Chief to ban access to Barton Creek during flooding.

Barton Creek is a classic class III pool/drop run which ends in downtown
Austin.   It is quite scenic and has several nice play spots and interesting
fairly easy rapids.  Barton is normally a dry creek bed and only runs during
flood, so this ordinance would effectively ban boating from this creek.

I am trying to learn how other cities manage activity on urban whitewater.
Any leads ????

Thanks,
John
From: dc4232@nado.hp.com (Don Couch)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Paddling
Summary: Anyone out there do this?
Keywords: Canoe Paddling Hawaiian Outrigger
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:43:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Santa Clara Site
NNTP-Posting-Host: toulon.nado.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.1]

I had posted a message to this group and it disappeared0. I'll try again:

Since this group deals with boats and paddling, I thought that I'd try to
see if anyone is interested in talking about Hawaiian Outrigger canoe paddling?
There are several clubs in the S.F. bay area and quite a few in the SoCal area 
(as a matter of fact the SoCal teams consistently do well in the big race 
every year - The Molokai Hoe and the Na Wahine O Ke Kai). There are a total of 
16 countries that race in outrigger canoes (a few short of becoming an Olympic 
sport) including Australia, New Zealand, Germany, etc. Several other states 
also have teams that compete internationally: Arkansas, Wisconsin, Illinois 
and Washington (did I leave any out?). 

If anyone wishes to find out more or just chat, let's start a new thread.


Don Couch
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no opinions, ergo, no disclaimer
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
dc4232@paris.nado.hp.com