HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mabht@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext
Subject: Proceedings of HyperOz '92
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:03:57 GMT
Organization: University of South Australia

Proceedings are available for HyperOz '92 for
 $25.00 (Aust) 
+ $5.00 (Aust) postage.
-------
 $30.00 (Aust) total

or $23.00 (US)

Make checks payable to HyperOz92

Send:

HyperOZ 92
School of Mathematics and Computer Studies
The Level Campus
University of South Australia
5095

Australia

------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents for the Proceedings of HyperOz '92

A Workshop on Hypertext Activities in Australia

University of South Australia

Level Campus

February 21, 1992


1. Anker, M. - Hyper-programming: Programming with Hypertext
in Boxer

2. Botafogo, R. & Mosse', D. -  Analyzing  Hypertext  Struc-
tures

3.  Botham,  A.;  Fuller,  M.;  Mackie,  E.; Wilkinson, R. &
Sacks-Davis, R. - Issues in the Design and Implementation of
a Hyperbase System

4. Chase, G. - A Geographic Hypermedia Information System

5. Dearle, A.; Marlin, C. & Dart, P. - A Hyperlinked Persis-
tent Software Development Environment

6. Leadbeater, M. & Seeley, D  -  Supporting  Teamwork  with
Asynchronous Hypertext

7. Lewis, P.; Jarvis, D. & Thomas, B. - Hypermedia and Fault
Diagnosis

8. Tyerman, S. - Dynamic and Interactive Hypermedia Tutorial
Systems

9.  Wang, B. & Hitchcock, P. - Object Oriented Database Sup-
porting Both Hypertext and  Complex  Documentation  Environ-
ments



Thank you

Bruce Thomas

University of South Australia
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext
From: doom@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner)
Subject: TED NELSON'S WORLD ENOUGH
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: ba
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 11:23:17 GMT

I saw a notice recently in the Bay Area Computer Currents
for 4/7-4/20, 1992:

     Ted Nelson, the outrageous and fast-talking
     hyper-generalist, goes ballistic with a show that has much
     of Silicon Valley holding its breath.  Entitled "Ted
     Nelson's World Enough: A Most Inspiring Autographical
     Lecture Series," the show will run for twelve hours --
     divided into three Saturday [Sunday?] evenings (April 12, 
     19 and 26) at Palo Alto's Spangenberg Theater. [...] The 
     show begins at 7PM each night and runs four hours, plus 
     three intermissions.  Tickets range from $10-$50 per show.  
     For more details, call 415/331-4422."
     
I tried calling the number, but the only additional info on
the message in Ted Nelson's office is that you can get
tickets at BASS.

There's an accompanying photo of Nelson, wild-eyed, leaning
forward and pointing at the audience.  In the background
there's just a curtain and a large step ladder.   Echoes of
Mark Twain and Thorton Wilder?
From: simlau@cc.uow.edu.au (sim kim lau)
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext
Subject: enquiry
Date: 15 Apr 92 03:31:24 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

I am researching into the application of hypertext systems in information
technology, any pointer to reference is much appreciated.
Thanks

simkimlau
s.k.lau@uow.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext,alt.cd-rom
From: doom@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Project Gutenberg info/address
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 10:59:18 GMT

I just heard about this recently myself.  There's quite a
bit of information in the FAQ list for rec.arts.books,
question number 5:

"Project Gutenberg is available by anonymous FTP to
mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu in directory /etext.  ... Another
similar directory is held at info.umd.edu, in directories
under info/ReadingRoom/Fiction."


Xref: sparky alt.hypertext:388 alt.cd-rom:1334
From: ladasky@netcom.com (John J. Ladasky II)
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext,alt.cd-rom
Subject: Wanted: Project Gutenberg info/address
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:26:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.wxqjxdg.ladasky
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Greetings!

	I was just made aware of the effort of the Gutenberg Project a
few weeks ago.  For those who don't know, the Gutenberg Project is trans-
lating public-domain literature to electronic media for (as I understand
it) general use.  For those that do know, would someone kindly supply me
with Michael Hart's email address so that I can find out more about this
project?

						Thanks in advance.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Ladasky II 					(ladasky@netcom.COM)

Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rjain@acsu.buffalo.edu (Rajeev Jain)
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext
Subject: Re: Proceedings of HyperOz '92
Summary: wanted review of available software
Keywords: software hypertext shareware
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:04:56 GMT
Followup-To: rjain@acsu.buffalo.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: UB


Would somebody give an overview of software to use hypertext to:

	help organize ideas and notes.
	develop documentation for programs.

Also, does anyone have any comments for the following packages, all shareware:

	black magic
	iris
	PC-outline
	hyperpad
	lookbook

Thanks for your time.




-- 
---
Rajeev Jain  (rjain@acsu.buffalo.edu) 
Newsgroups: alt.hypertext
From: aby@cs.uow.edu.au (Hossein Sarrafzadeh)
Subject: e-mail address of Halasz and Schwartz?
Summary: looking for e-mail addresses
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Wollongong University, Australia
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 23:45:49 GMT

I need the e-mail address of Halasz and Schwartz.
I also need the full reference of the paper they 
presented at NIST workshop in 1990. I would greatly
appreciate any information.

Hossein S. ZADEH
aby@cs.uow.edu.au
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: deductive "proof" of HIghest Intelligence, defined God.
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:19:32 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <graham.702633285@bizet>, graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
writes:
> Kent:
> >A couple of problems, the most natural physical wavelength to broadcast
> >information is the wavelength of hydrogen. So far we have not found
> >anything intelligent transmitted over this broadcast address.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the natural wave length is. If the universe is
> real big then the messages are going to take a very long long time
> to reach us.

But if let us say 1000 civilizations have been broadcasting constantly
on this wave there should be something we could detect. 

I'm getting more skeptical day by day by the lack of intelligent signals
from space. Either carbon or any other based life is extremely scarce,
or then the odds for a civilization to stay alive for a longer time
are minor.

Cheers,
Kent
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: No-one cares anymore
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 04:06:58 GMT

Jim Perry:
>I am not going to be so bold as Mr. Ho-Stuart and propose any negative
>judgments of any of the participants, but I will emphatically second
>the thrust indicated by the Subject.
>I was actively interested in the prospect of bringing some discussion
>of different religious traditions, in this case Jewish, into the
>eternal Christian-centered debates and nebulous epistemology which are
>the common fare here.  I still feel that way, though I'd rather see it
>as discourse and explanation than simple insult or accusation of
>ignorance.  Feel free to point out erroneous assumptions or
>generalizations, but please explain in just what way they are wrong,
>and try to teach rather than flame.
>Since alt.atheism was created (at least a couple of years ago), I've
>never resorted to creating a KILL file entry for an individual (and
>only occasionally for a specific thread or cross-posts from a specific
>newsgroup), but recently I've been tempted to do so.
>How about we just stop responding to all these "is too/is not/drop
>dead" threads, especially those completely divorced from the topic of
>atheism.  If there is meat in a discussion, fine, continue it; I would
>much rather express this as "end the pointless threads" than as "stop
>threads on <subject X>" or "ignore <person Y>".  

I will buy this Jim as I suspect I may be one for your kill file :-)
In a sincere attempt to tone all this down I will kill all my future
posts on the threads you mention. I also make a sincere plea to Matthew
Wiener to treat a question as nothing more than a question, to stop 
trying to infer the intent of the question from the question, and to
hence to actually answer some of the questions asked of him.

Last post on this thread ..........................

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Jews in the "real world" (was Re: Judaism and the FAQ file))
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:58:46 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <71750@netnews.upenn.edu>, weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
Wiener) writes:
> In article <22098@goofy.Apple.COM>, ksand@apple (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >So why don't we have this separation in our Western culture? Seems
> >to work well with mixed crowds in all other public gatherings...
> 
> I know of some women who disagree with your assessment of it working
> well, with harassment coming in many different forms.  And I know of
> some women who have gone to all-women high schools and/or colleges,
> and so on.

I don't either personally think that all-female or all-male schools
are a good thing, quite the opposite. These were based on the old-fashioned
society of keeping the sexes separated until marriage, and this is 
not exactly a way to make people live peacefully together (remember
Married with Children :-) ).
 
> >And even if you move girls to the left and boys to the right,
> >you could watch the girl crowd during the whole sermon. So what's
> >the deal then?
 
> Uh, the separation in a synagogue involves a physical barrier so that
> the men cannot see the women.

Shouldn't you expand this so they have separate entries to the place,
so there's *no* way to take a quick glance at the other sex, and think
about amorous adventures during the sermon? Even worse, you need to
have two different times for the sermons, so there's no way to see
the other sex *before* it all starts?

As you see, this is not really practical, admit that the separation
of sexes has to do with a social and cultural tradition, and not 
based on any real issues related to human sexuality.

Cheers,
Kent
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA and DABROSKI Angst (Was: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 7 Apr 92 11:29:47 GMT
	<1992Apr03.213905.22514@bmerh2.bnr.ca> <72836@netnews.upenn.edu>
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <72836@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu 
(Matthew P Wiener) writes:

   >I'm trying not to flame so much.  This results in weak flames and weak
   >articles in general.  It is not the natural weemba state of being.

  I was wondering what had happened to Obnoxio.
From: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA and DABROSKI Angst (Was: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:17:51 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Distribution: world,public
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)

In article <graham.702790592@bizet>, graham@maths (Graham Matthews) writes:
>Go read any of the standard texts. eg: you seem to know a lot about
>the Jewish concept of God so start from there. Use that as your model
>and answer John's question with respect to the Jewish model of God.

No, I don't know a lot about the Jewish concept of God.  I've certainly
studied it a lot, but I don't comprehend it very much.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Backward Masking
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:29:10 GMT
Organization: MacDTS Mongols

In article <1992Apr12.205938.23212@athena.mit.edu>, starpath@athena.mit.edu
(David E. Hollingsworth) writes:
> P.S. I almost wanted to write this without a disclaimer, but people have
> a hard time filtering non-serious posts.  What I wrote isn't what I think!
> (I even threw in bangs, caps, and spelling errors for realism.)
> 	Anyway, the scary part is that some people DO think this way.  Much
> of what I wrote came in whole or in part (especially figures) from:
> 	_Satanism in America: What They Do Not Want You To Know_
> 	ISBN 0-927760-00-2
> 	Michael Haynes, Ph.D. and Paul W. Carlin, Sr., Ph.D.
> 	Kerusso Company, Inc., P.O. Box 1168, Crockett, Texas 75835.
> 	(They suggest writing to P.O. Box 151 (Michael Paul & Associates)
> for more information.)
> 	Time to go listen to "Tom Sawyer"...

Apologies, I didn't reflect on the note at the bottom. Yes, I've seen
TV programs (Ankerberg show) where this former rock producer states
similar ideas, that any popular music, including gospel music, is the work
of Satan and the clear indication of the last days.

My grand-father told us about their priest telling about the same ideas
when they attended dances where people danced to tango ...

Cheers,
Kent
From: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Need Input
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:30:17 GMT
Reply-To: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
In-reply-to: smaurer@artin.helios.nd.edu's message of 5 Apr 92 21:58:51 GMT

smaurer@artin.helios.nd.edu (sean maurer) writes:

>Is it irrational to believe in god?

Yes.

>Is it unproductive?

Not necessarily.  It is only unproductive when it interferes with your
ability to behave rationally.

>If it is both unproductive and irrational (as some atheists claim)
>then is it always unproductive to do illogical things?

No.  Most forms of artistic expression are highly illogical, but
productive nonetheless.

>What about the human purpose of god? The idea that if he didn't exist
>we would have invented him?

Different people invent different justifications for their existence.
Some do so by inventing God-beings who create and control them and
give them a purpose in life.  Others, like me, choose not to bother
justifying their own existence and are merely satisfied to exist.

>Compare your beliefs to traditional religion.

No comment.  I doubt I could do this in less than 1,000 words, and,
furthermore, since my religious beliefs are personal and only
applicable to myself, I do not believe you possess the necessary frame
of reference to understand them.

>Do you thing [think?] as intelligence increases belief in god is less
>prevelant?

No.  

>In the face of non evidence is it more logical or productive to
>believe or disbelieve (in reference to anything)

In general, I am likely to assume that a given entity does not exist
unless there is good cause to believe that it does.  However, it is
often productive to make assumptions without justification in order to
simplify one's life.  I don't go around questioning my own existence,
despite the fact that I have no concrete evidence of it, because it
serves no purpose to do so.

>Do you accept the possiblity of 'aliens' that are further developed
>(read: higher) beings than us?

I accept that there is a possibility approaching a certainty of there
being life more intelligent than ourselves out there somewhere.  The
universe is a very large place.

>What evidence is there against God?

The total lack of concrete evidence for God.

>What is the purpose then if there is no God?

Purpose of what?  Human existence?  Aside from increasing entropy?  I
categorically refuse to answer this question when it is posed to me,
aside from asking the rebuttal question of "Why do you need a
purpose?"

----

I do not claim to be a "typical atheist", or even an atheist.  I
haven't the slightest idea what religion(s) are even close to what I
believe, as I have no interest in organized religion.
--
I'm for a different form of government than we have now. One I'm particularly
fond of is detailed in the U.S. Constitution. It'd be great if we had one like
that.
	-- Alan M. Carroll (carroll@cs.uiuc.edu), alt.politics.correct
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: goedel's proof for existence of god
Keywords: god,goedel
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:30:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: jyusenky.1992Apr6.183035.7252
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <atten.702563771@groucho.phil.ruu.nl> atten@phil.ruu.nl (Mark van Atten) writes:
>Axiom 1.
>(dichotomy) A property is positive iff its negation is negative.
>Axiom 2.
>(closure) A property is positive if it necessarily contains a positive property.

I am not terribly sure that "contains" is well-defined here.

>Theorem 1.
>A positive property is logically consistent (i.e., possibly it has some instance).

This does not follow.
--
This is a newer version of the memetic .signature infection.  Now that's an
idea.  Copy it into your .signature today!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: different planet (was paranoid etc)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 01:42:59 GMT

In article <73404@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>>			 I and (I think) many other atheists, for
>>this reason, do not think that instilling an absolute moral
>>code into children from the bible is a good idea, as they will
>>grow up not questioning authority and thus be prone to manipulation
>>and "just following orders" of a potentially nefarious nature.
>
>Jewish tradition encourages the questioning of authority.  Constantly.

Which authority?  All authority?  Even that which is purported to
from God?  Somehow I very much doubt it.  I could refer to lots of
passages in the OT, but yeah, I know, Judaism doesn't use a literal
interpretation of the Bible. (whatever that means)
--
Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: graham@maths.su.oz.au (Graham Matthews)
Subject: Re: Red Sea.
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 01:20:33 GMT

J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
>> >Imagine a
>> >scientist who is collecting data and then God stepping in to make
>> >normally impossible things happen (like parting the Red Sea).

In article <house.702520877@helios>  writes:
>> BTW, I read that recent simulations have shown that freak wind  
>conditions
>> in the Red Sea should be able to part it.

(Prince Lev of the Domovoi) writes:
>Not to mention earthquakes.

Is there some point you want to make Lev?

graham
--
Graham Matthews                 And it's true we are immune
Pure Math, Uni.Sydney, Oz       When fact is fiction and T.V. is reality
graham@maths.su.oz.au
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Bob Beauchaine)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:33:07 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Apr14.165441.4767@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
>I had understood your earlier point to be that
>by age 7 or 8 it was too late to give a moral
>education.
>
>My reply was that at this age we can read things
>like the story of Adam and Eve, the story of
>Abraham, the story of Hanukkah, and learn these
>lessons.  That is, the reading is part of the process
>which will lead to the higher "level of maturity".
>
>This probably boils down to the Jewish belief
>that it's important for your kids to read
>("early and often").
>

  To butt into your argument--

  It's been a while, but I recall from college that it is in fact at
  best unproductive, and at worst damaging to attempt to teach a
  child morality before the age mentioned above.  They have neither
  the sophistication nor the mental constructs to build a model of
  morality at that age.  All "moral" decisions made by young
  children are of a crude cost/benefit nature; lessons that teach
  them that they are in some sense bad do nothing but damage their
  self esteem.  You may teach them what they are allowed to do, and
  even instill some empathy for others, but morality should be left
  alone until they can understand what is is you're teaching them.
  (And yes, I do have a child).  Your "higher level of maturity"
  can't be accomodated until their brains are developed enough for
  the lesson.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobb@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

Well, I vote for us to believe in an honest lawyer. There's a 
better chance that one exists than there is a chance that there is a god. 

No jesus, know peace.  Know jesus, no peace.
From: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Achilles heels for religion?
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:17:17 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)

In article <1992Apr8.154626.24424@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>>No, you said that you had to do so. That's not history, that's
>>>a scientific claim.

>>It's history.  That is what happened.  

>Yes, but your claim that it was necessary to do so is interpretation,
>and requires verification.

But I don't claim there are no other ways.  Perhaps there's a magic
pill that makes the fundamental theorem of calculus comprehensible to
freshman.  I wouldn't know.  I just know that by deliberately deviating
from "mathematical truth", I could got through to students in ways that
I couldn't get through otherwise.

>>>Back it up or retract it.

>>I have backed it up.  You are the one invented preposterosities on
>>the spot.  Just like you do with Judaism.

>No, Matthew. I'm the one who's demanding evidence for a claim that you
>made--one that had a non-historical component to it. You are the
>one who is refusing to provide it.

What non-historical claim am I making?  I'm not saying method A is
superior to method B: I'm saying that I had success with method A at
times but not always with method B.  That is an historical claim.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Matthew P Wiener -- why is he so paranoid?
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:29:23 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)

In article <1992Apr7.191730.12206@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>No, quite often that is the precise unpleasantness.  When people who
>>really don't know Judaism start trying to insist in the face of a short
>>and simple correction that religion has to be defined by an abstraction
>>of Christianity, that is both a misrepresentation and unpleasant to boot.

>No, Matthew, it is simply ill informed.

How would you know?  It wouldn't make a bit of a difference to you.

I managed to annoy some Indians when I stated some falsehoods about
Indians speaking English.  If I kept going with my falsehoods, I'd
say the Indians would have direct grounds for calling me unpleasant.

>					 Merely because ignorance
>and rudeness are correlated in your case doesn't mean it's generally
>true.

What ignorance are you referring to?  You're the one who doesn't know
much of anything about Judaism.

>>To consider an extreme case: do you believe that the holocaust revisionists
>>are merely engaged in an intellectual disagreement?

>I have yet to see one that is, but I don't think it's in principle impossible
>that one could be.

Wrong.  They cannot engage in such massive lying without being unpleasant.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu)