HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:54:38 -0600
From:         Dene Grigar <ACA102@UTDALLAS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Last Comments on Lurkers
              9 Nov 1992 15:06:08 -0600 from <HART@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

I am coming out of the woodwork;  I have been a lurker for the past one and
one half years.  It is an illness and it is time to admit it.  This illness
is called intimidation.  I see the names of those who participate on MBU and
these are people whose articles I read.  As a Ph.D. student teaching rhetoric
in an interdisciplinary environment whose own work focuses on literature,
history and philosophy (I also love e-technology),   I am  trying to learn
about the teaching of rhetoric.  So, I listen in on conversations about
rhetoric by those of you who are professors teaching rhetoric.  I didn't mean
to offend, just learn.  I am not yet convinced that I have much to add to the
conversation.  My silence is not mean-spiritedness or voyeurism--just a case
of insecurity.
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:03:25 AST
Comments:     <11NOV92.09800198.0046.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      at risk students

> From: David E. Schwalm
> Universities should not think in terms of "adding remedial courses." They need
> to rethink curriculum altogether--with the student in mind.
     A tall order, given who we're talking about when we talk
about "universities."  We're beginning such a rethinking here,
at a small place supposedly dedicated to undergraduate teaching,
and I'm continually astonished at the proportion of the faculty
who don't believe there IS such a thing as curriculum.  There's
content, and you open their heads and dump it in.
     We're lucky to have some administrators that sound like
David Schwalm, and some faculty members who believe student
matter . . . but it's hard slogging.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:59:34 EST
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      resource for composition teachers

>From: Pseudopodia can only be so long <TABRON@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
>Subject: Re: your friend compiling the resource for composition teachers
>To: rselfe@mtu.edu
>
>I don't know if he knows this already (he probably does,) but has he
>considered using Newsreader as a resource? it has ongoing conferences on
>almost any subject and if nothing else provides students with an endless
>number of examples of badly written prose. :-)
>if possible, I would _really_ like to see what he comes up with when he's
>done. is there a way I could reach him to beg directly?
>
>Judith Tabron
>Dept. of English
>Brandeis University
>tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
>
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dickie Selfe              rselfe@mtu.edu
Humanities Dept.          906-487-3225
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, MI   49931
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:45:15 -0800
From:         "(Tim McGee)" <tmcgee@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject:      No Wallflowers

	I too find the term "wallflowers" undesirable on
gender-political grounds, and rather liked "lurker" and
the kindred "voyeur."  As to the assertion that the
former is somewhat sinister, I agree, but, being a lefty,
don't subscribe to the pejorative connotations of
"sinsister."  What I find so fascinating is the felt need to
distinguish between those members of the audience (or
rather, the vidience) who submit commentary and
those who don't.  It's as if the submitters believed that
the silent viewers were not participating or
contributing--a position which, in my opinion, is based
upon an untenably narrow understanding of what
constitutes participation or contribution.  Just because
we don't give you feedback doesn't mean that part of
what you get when posting didn't come from our
presence, tacit though it may have been.  Nevertheless,
now that I've become submissive, I'll suggest that, on
the model of "auditors," we be called "viditors," with a
connotative range from value-neutral to the utmost
respect.  I realize of course the impossibility of
legislating usage and will retire now to the rock from
'neath which I had only recently crawled.

Tim McGee
(Just) Viditing.
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:15:39 -0700
From:         "(Michael Day)" <mday@SILVER.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dr. Seuss

I don't have a litcrit analysis of _Green Eggs and Ham_, but did
see Jessie Jackson deconstruct it admirably on Saturday Night Live.

BTW, my partner has asked about studies of sexism and racism in
Disney animations, such as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and
Beauty and the Beast.  She wants to write on the subject without
reinventing the wheel.  Anyone know of any good articles?

Michael Day
mday@silver.sdsmt.edu
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:30:00 EST
From:         Pseudopodia can only be so long <TABRON@BRANDEIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Clinton/Gore

at the risk of making some already grouchy people even grouchier, i would
like to say that I have come to adore Bill Clinton, not just because he
is a not-Bush but because he is actually intelligent (a nice change,) and
has an intelligent wife (not that Bush didn't, but somehow I couldn't give
enough credit for the choice of his wife that it erased all of the rest of
his too-considerable faults.) When the crowd outside of the governor's house
in Little Rock went on and on cheering Hillary during the acceptance speech,
Bill Clinton won my support forever for being genuinely pleased and for
the way in which, rather than quieting them, he said, "Sure, you can cheer
for her!" I can't do the moment justice.

Judith
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:26:32 -0500
From:         SULKES@UCBEH.BITNET
Subject:      Storyspace

I've seen several references to Storyspace as
a writing tool and would appreciate learning something
about it.  What kind of program is it?  Whome is it for?
Where can one get it?  In short, anything at all.
I would appreciate any information or help on this.
Thanks, Stan Sulkes, Raymond Walters College.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:26:32 CST
From:         "Patty Ericsson" <PATTY@SDNET.BITNET>
Subject:      politics

If we have to let politics into a list I really enjoy, then I'll have to
express my cynicism.  How can anyone "love" any modern day politician?
Maybe Clinton and wife are wonderful and intelligent, but I can't help
wonder if that perception isn't a product of how they've been marketed.
Positive and negative perceptions of any of the major candidates are
questionable (at least I think they are) simply because the candidates
are packaged and marketed to appeal in certain ways.

I've never been as disillusioned as I now am.  But maybe that's because I
just finished another session of my computer ethics course!  I feel like
all three major campaigns were trying any way possible to sell me a bill
of goods.  All three failed because their goods are tainted.

How come a nice little girl from South Dakota has end up feeling this
way?
Patty
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:32:34 EST
From:         David S Hogsette <dhogsett@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Hypertext in comp and lit
              "SULKES%UCBEH.BITNET@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU" at Nov 11,
              92 6:21 pm

Stan,

I'm glad to hear that you are interested in what we are trying to accomplish
with Storyspace.  As of yet, I do not have any handouts and I don't think I
will have any for the class.  But if I do put a packet together, I'll try to
remember to send you sections of it that may interest you.  We hope to be
running a Storyspace panel at the upcoming Ann Arbor conference.  Our panel
will discuss hypertext theory and our use of Storyspace in our first year
composition classes--collaborative projects, hypertextual personal narratives,
and writing about literature.  If you plan on attending, maybe we can get
together and talk in more detail.

You may also want to write to Eastgate--the publishers of Storyspace--to get
more information on the Storyspace program:

Eastgate Systems, Inc.
CIVILIZED SOFTWARE
134 Main St.
Watertown, MA 02172
(800) 562-1638

I think members of Eastgate post on this system.  Good luck!

Dave Hogsette
CC&L (Ohio State)
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:04:05 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Nancy--Remedial/working

Nancy:
Many of my students are working in the sense that they are non-
traditional students, working and trying to earn a  degree.
I didn't mean that kind of "working" though.  I was thinking
of some of the work Basil Bernstein did, my own experience, Mike
Rose's book, Brice Heath's work--the upshot of which is that working
class students (whose parents are working class, not managerial
or professional class) enter school with quite a few strikes
against them--and the fastballs get faster as the grades advance.
As someone else noted, these students experience failure. They
come into our classes thinking we're the enemy (as perhaps we
are).  Their fear can be interpreted as hostility, laziness,
ineptitude (the general characteristics ruling classes tend to
apply to working classes).  I would argue that perhaps because
we are now members of the professional/managerial classes, we play
out those attitudes in our classes with our students being the
objects of our disaffection.  At times, I have wondered at the
similarity between the anger some professors display toward
the "dumb" students and the contempt/anger privileged classes
display toward those dumb truck drivers and waitresses.  YOu
get my point.  It is worthwhile, I think, to see insruction from
the point of view of students who have always failed, who have
had to see education as a different kind of world, where people
act, talk , and think differently (far differently) than the way
people act, talk, and think at home (and, furthermore, who are
"right" whereas those at home are "wrong").  This is not to
say that one should play nursemaid to these students.  I am
just pleading that looked at from the working class perspecitive,
the picture changes, and perhaps one can be more tolerant of
their low scores.  The problem comes when teachers assume that students
should be at a particular "place" or "score level" if they are
to be in our classes.  The trick, again, is to find out where
they are and bring them along.

With regards to your other comment--I don't think one has to
absorb the responsibility for the students.  What we are engaged
in is a mutual project.  When the project fails, one member
could be all wrong; the other member could be all wrong, or there
might have been mutual failure.
Too long, I know.  Forgive me.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
From: MFOSULLI@MACC.WISC.EDU (Mary OSullivan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Books on Teaching Writing
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:08:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU",MFOSULLI

I am not sure if you would want to use the following book as a textbook, but
certainly anyone studying writing pedagogy would at least want to look at this
as a supplemental text. _Teaching Writing: Pedagogy, Gender, and Equity_ edited
by Cynthia Caywood and Gillian Overing.  The articles in this book raise issues
all writing teachers should consider.
>From:    IN%"MBU-L%TTUVM1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU"   "Megabyte University
 (Computers & Writing)"
>To:      Multiple recipients of list MBU-L <MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET>
>Subject: Books on Teaching Writing
>
>Received: from 129.130.12.1 by vms3.macc.wisc.edu; Thu, 05 Nov 92 11:19 CDT
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>Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:11:00 CST
>From: ROSE NORMAN <UAHRXN01%ASNUAH.ASN.NET@KSUVM.KSU.EDU>
>Reply-To: "Megabyte University (Computers & Writing)"
>          <MBU-L%TTUVM1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU>
>Sender: "Megabyte University (Computers & Writing)"
>        <MBU-L%TTUVM1.bitnet@KSUVM.KSU.EDU>
>Subject: Books on Teaching Writing
>To: Multiple recipients of list MBU-L <MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET>
>
>I'm in the process of picking textbooks for a new graduate course I"ll
>be teaching spring term (starts in March) on Writing Pedagogy.  Most of
>the students will be from our Graduate Certificate in Technical Communication,
>but I expect to draw some of our regular M.A. candidates, so I'm going to
>allow them to choose one of three research tracks: 1) Technical Writing,
>2) Business Writing, 3) Other Specialties (Composition, Remedial, and
>Computers are specialties they can choose from or combine).
>
>Have any mbu-ers taught pedagogy courses of this kind? Would you be willing
>to share textbook and syllabus suggestions?  I'm going to post the booklistt
>I've so far compiled as a separate posting for those interested in the topic.
>
>Rose
>Rose Norman, Associate Professor of English
>University of Alabama in Huntsville
>Huntsville, AL 35899
>205/895-6320
>RNORMAN@UAHVAX1 bitnet or RNORMAN@ASNUAH.ASN.NET
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:29:15 EST
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

>
>      -Our view of writing as empowerment
>      -Rhetorical theory as we know it
>      -The status of liability law in America
>      -(And I'm sure a million other things I haven't thought about yet)
>  This may be irrelevent.  Business may completely overlook the hyper-report
>possibilities.  But if they run with it, our discipline will be doing a lot
>of scrambling I'm afraid.
>
>Michael Gos,

Michael and Dave,
I don't think your concerns are irrelevent.  I was at an ACM Special
Interest Group conference on On-line Documentation in Ottawa in early Oct.
EVERYONE there was at least interested (many actually working on) on-line,
hypertextual documents.  So were we.  It seems like most commercial
operations who deal extensively with computers (which one's don't, these
days?) are concerned about going on line, under control.  We had a
discussion about HT and 'rhetorical theory as we know it' in the near past
on MBU.  Very interesting.

My vague recollection of the 'understanding' that came out of that
discussion was that some sort of totally open hypertext--all is linked to
all and open to everyone--would totally undermine our current understanding
of argument and rhetoric.  BUT that sort of open, or constructive system is
not normally what we are presented with.  Many systems are VERY linear,
allow for the same sort of argument structures we're used to.

Heck we had to argue at the conference for just a little control over the
kind of on-=line help  systems (my equivalent to your 'hyper-report) we
receive with software. All we were asking for, in a nutshell, was on-line
help that allowed us (or any customer) to customize and add a few
site-specific links.

Those of you out there who do order packages of software, wouldn't you look
favorably on software that included some sort of option that would allow yo
to add a node or two, perhaps even a path that takes a group of users (say
novices) through some essential screens and activities?

We also made the case for providing users with some options for registering
problems AS THEY WORK, (what I call a real-time, work-related feedback
loop).  If you ask for permission and give users some incentive, you could
build in tracking systems that would capture work patterns.  Those could
be, in some cases automatically, shipped off to development groups, giving
programmers and document developers some very useful information about how
real users, really use their products and help systems.  A scary and
powerful process for increasing direct contact between developers and
customers.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dickie Selfe              rselfe@mtu.edu
Humanities Dept.          906-487-3225
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, MI   49931
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:06:59 -0400
From:         MIJOYCE@VASSAR.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Techprep

>anyone out there working on
>techprep initiatives?  Wisconsin is far enough down the road to see some real
>conflicts between tech schools and universities, and to have encountered some
>real confusion on the part of teachers.  Not that I am against techprep, I see
>some real possibilities.  But we are getting badly hung up on the day to day
>aspects of this effort.
>
>Any experience out there?
>
>Bill Wresch


Bill,

Allaire George,  Vice President for Instruction at Jackson Community
College, has been deeply involved in techprep initiative in Michigan and
regionally. Perhaps one of my JCC coleagues (nearer to home) can fill you
in on her e-mail address. I know that she's been discussing a collaboration
with the UofMichigan Ed School which would incorporate simulation, gaming,
real-time conferencing and hypertext into techprep situations.

Michael Joyce
From: USERTFSH@UMICHUM.BITNET (Ann Green)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: at risk students
Date: 11 Nov 92 04:02:20 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

JRaymond, thank you for your calm note about Mina S.  Her work reminds us
that success is not always measured by quantities of students who receive
degress.  A person may spend a year using the university's resources, David,
don't you think and become employed in a position which her learning in
that year helped her get.  This is especially apparent in the community
college.  Not all profit from higher ed is immediately visible and
quantifiable.  Ann/JCC
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Organization: Samford University Writing Programs
X-Acknowledge-To: <DHROBERT@SAMFORD>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:33:28 CST
From:         "David H. Roberts" <DHROBERT@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Clinton/Gore
              4 Nov 1992 11:43:23 -0500 from <R_CONNORS@UNHH.UNH.EDU>

Bob Conners:  I agree that caution is advised.  Clinton may not be a
REAL dem.

--

BTW, call Murray and tell him I said he oughta quit revising _The Craft
of Revision_ while he's ahead.

dave roberts
samford university
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:29:50 -0500
From:         SULKES@UCBEH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

It's not enough that I spend hours on this board
but now I am responding to my own messages.  That's
because I left the wrong address.  I am "sulkes@uc.beh.san.uc.edu"
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:45:35 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yankee Trader Needs Info

Okay, Rhoda -- I'm game to tell you what I've just done with
an Am lit survey.  I'n not sure this is what you're wanting
(and what do I want from you in return??  EVERYTHING you have :-))

I've been using email with lit classes the last couple of years
and have encountered, this semester, a class that WON"T TAlk TO
EACH OTHER!! They write ME nice long postings but I haven't been
able to get them to bounce off each other at all.  It's taken
more than half a semester to get them to talk in class!!!
(I don't know whether I feel more like a dentist or a gyn!)

Anyway, to try to encourage them to read each other's writings, I've
turned our last assignment into a
"contest" they will judge.

Here's how I've built to it.  (The numbers are here for sequence,
not parallelism!)

1.  Posting:  If you were a writer, what current social issues would
    you feel should be reflecting?    OR  What themes/issues do
    you think lit students a 100 years from now will be seeing in
    works from our era  (two ways to see same thing)

    Of course, the usual things like abortion, AIDS, homelessness,
    child-abuse, racial tensions showed up as the issues.

2.  Assignment:  We read Masters' _Spoon River Anthology_, moved
    to Hurston's _Eatonville Anthology_, and then read Faulkner's
    _As I Lay Dying_.    All of these have communities of characters.

3.  Posting:  Create a character -- imitate the style of one of the
    three authors and reflect the world you live in, either on
    a very personal experience level or on "political" level.

    Students have posted the assignments to me, rather than to the
    group so I can have them judge "blindly."

4.  I will organize the materials and allow class time for students
    to read about 10 writings and assign them scores of 1-10.  Then
    I will take their score sheets and total the scores to declare
    the "winners" -- the winners get bonus points on the current
    major test.

   Of course we'll take time to respond in class....to see what kind
   of world we see ourselves as living in.


I think this could be used in other ways as well.  Students could
actually take the writings, select and edit/revise, and create their
own anthologies...making this an ongoing project.

Maybe they could expand and "anthologize" characters from the selections
you're studying...

This gives me a chance to see a different side of my students and I've
been surprised at how many of them chose to write poetic character
sketches (have even had a few students apologetically send me some
more of their poems) ... and bonus points always attract students :-)

.......
Though this grows out of my struggle to find ways to make email
more interactive -- and I have wound up taking this away from MAIL
interaction -- I think I'll find ways to build on this in the future.

Humbly submitted:

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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