From: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,alt.activism,ca.environment
Subject: Gas Tax Debate on NPR
Date: 23 Jul 1992 03:38:10 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bike2work

Here is a debate over the issue of a gas tax that 
occurred on NPR's "all things considered" (7-21-92).

We decided to take a closer look at one of Ross Perot's remedies
for the economy, it's the call for an increase in the gasoline
tax. by 50 cents a gallon over 5 years. Hardly an idea embraced
by many americans. while he was on the campaign trail, former
Senator Paul Tsongas had a similar proposal in his platform. So
we talked to senator Tsongas today, and also with an opponent of
any increased gasonline tax. We begin with Senator Tsongas, and
why he's in favor of the idea:

Well I think there are two separate rationales: one obviously is
that we don't have an energy policy if you look at the cost of
energy in the United States, compared to our European trading
partners who have viable energy policies, it's no accident that
ours is much lower, considerably lower, and that we have, in
fact, no energy policy.

The other rationale simply goes to infrastructure. There's been
a lot of discussion during the campaign about the need for roads
& bridges being repaired, for mass transit, all of those kinds
of things which I think most people would sign onto. But where
the discussion has been, "let's do it and pay for it with more
debt", so, if you have any sense of generational responsibility,
that hopefully would be something that would be uncomfortable.
Therefore, what I had proposed was 3 to 5 cents a year every
year for the next 10 years to pay for the infrastructure,
mass-transit, etc.

Well, let's turn to an opponent of higher gasoline taxes,
William Berman (sic), is the energy director of the Automobile
Assn. of America, triple-A, and he's head of the Washington
coalition of organizations that lobby here against an increased
gas tax among other groups in that coalition, by the way, are
representatives of the trucking, tourism & farm interests, Mr.
Berman, what's the matter here? What's the problem with Senator
Tsongas' logic?

Well, first of all,  if he's going to base an energy policy upon
the gasoline tax, it's going to be a very flimsy policy. We have
a situation in this country where most of the people have
expressed great opposition to the use of gasoline taxes for
anything but transportation and yet these days, we're seeing gas
taxes that would be split among transportation, deficit
reduction, energy security and a number of other reasons.

Senator Tsongas, do you think that if gasoline taxes are
increased it's important that they only go for infrastructure
and transportation, or should this contribute to deficit
reduction as well, or is the distinction meaningful?

Well, I don't think it means a heck of a lot, but let me say as
a preface that there will never be a public outcry for gasoline
taxes so the argument that people don't want it is a given,
that's not the point, the point is, how many persion gulf wars
do you have to fight, how many billions of dollars do you have
to send overseas in trade deficit, before the country recognizes
that it's bleeding.

B: I think what we'd like to do is to move the discussion to a
higher based, energy tax one that would be a broader based
energy tax, and discuss whether or not we can get public support
for that.

T: Why don't you tell us what type of energy tax you would
support

B: Well I think it's one of those things where we'd have to
determine if the public was with us. We would like to continue
to find out if the public is willing to support something other
than an oil import tax, which apparently, according to the
surveys we've seen, the public supports an import tax on oil.
We'd like to move the discussion to something even broader.

T: Well, we can have this discussion twenty years from now, the
fact is that if you wait around until there is broad public
support...I mean at some point there has to be some leadership.

How do you answer that Mr. Berman, that obviously all of us that
are represented in one way or another in Washington by groups we
belong to few of us write in and tell our representatives of the
Auto Club "I'd like you to raise some taxes for us". Everyone is
gonna say "no, we don't want higher taxes."

B: Well, I think the actual response is that we are dealing with
an energy situation in this country where our energy consumption
per vehicle is going down, our energy consumption per person is
going down, whereas in Europe and Japan where they have high
gasoline taxes, they are also having consumption increases that
are twice ours and their reliance on foreign oil is dramatically
higher than ours, so they really have been embarked on a
progression of higher taxes that hasn't provided them with
anything as far as a benefit.

I'd like to ask both of you to resolve one, tell me what you
think about one problem that's often seen in the gasoline tax
which whether it is too regressive; whether it falls unfairly on
people who depend on their car, aren't well-to-do, and pay the
same share of taxes as a very well-to-do person who uses their
car all the time.

B: Well, I think that's one of our main arguments. The typical
AAA member is on a fixed and limited income, and we are finding
most arguments that we hear against it is that the public does
not wish to spend more of their limited income on higher
gasoline taxes.

Senator Tsongas, is it not a progressive enough tax?

T: Well it is not progressive, and I think you have to adjust to
some extent, the income-tax structure in terms of people on
lower incomes to address it, but at some point, this country is
in serious trouble, because there is not the will to do what
other countries are doing, not just, by the way, on gasoline
taxes but entitlements. The range of issues we confront; and
there will be good reasons till the last dawning day why we
don't do anything, but that, in the last analysis, is not good
for this country, and part of what Ross Perot has done for this
country by putting this program out is to say here is my best
judgement; these are things which are not comfortable, but we're
going to have to start talking about it so that the next
generation has something that they can look forward to.

Mr. Berman, the last word:

B: Yes, I think what we need is more efficiency, higher fuel
efficient cars, alternative fuels, and we've got to get a spirit
of cooperation among the public to utilize their highways in a
more efficient manner and to get some conservation ethics
going...

Conservation policy, but not through higher prices at the
pump...

B: it doesn't seem to be working in other countries.

Mr.  Berman of the triple A, and Senator Paul Tsongas, thank you
both very much...
--
Bill Michel			
bm@eng.sun.com		These views are my own, not Sun's.
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