HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sachs@tanner.berkeley.edu (Rainer Sachs)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: What to read?
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:33:36 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
NNTP-Posting-Host: tanner.berkeley.edu

In article <weZvc4G00WB7Q2WaAm@andrew.cmu.edu> je10+@andrew.cmu.edu (James Brian Endres) writes:

>I'm interested in going back and reading a pretty comprehensive
>overview of human history. I've got and a library copy of Wells'...

>Can anyone recommend anything of that scope that is more recent ...

The Columbia History of the World
Garraty and somebody editors
is only one (long) volume
Fairly recent -- 1970's; rather bland but it has its moments
more or less coherently arranged.
Does cover India, China, Japan, ..., though not as intensively
as Europe.
I like it for mealtime reading -- a century of endeavor for 500
million people is about all I can take at once anyway.

>Thanks,
>Jimmer.
Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.jewish
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: What makes Croatian culture superior to that of Serbs and Jews?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:22:41 GMT

|> 
|> Just because the Croats have skillfully been planning and executing a PR
|> plan for the past five years, and invested 17 million dollars toward this 
|> effect, does not make their culture any more superior than that of Serbs.
|> The worst characteristic of Croatian culture, though, is their refusal to 
|> admit to the genocide they committed against Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies during
|> WWII. The Germans apologized for their acts. The Russians apologized to the
|> Poles for theirs. Yet the Croats continue to deny any policy of genocide 
|> against Serbs and Jews in WWII? WHY? What makes you so superior that you can
|> attempt to wipe out whole nations and then try to deny it?
|> 
|> Milan 

Corats are not Ustase.  Croats are not Nazi.  Croats fought Nazis and 
Ustashe in WWII as well.  Croatia between WWII was a puppet Nazi state
orchestrated by Germany to divide and rule the nations on the Balkans. 
Some Croats went for it, but many didn't.  As far as Croats are concerned,
Ustase were criminals.  On the elections a couple of weeks ago you had
a chance to see that only about 5% of Croats believe in Nazism and Paraga's 
party today.  So maybe the right question is why do some people like you 
want to paint Croats as the bad guys?  Maybe you are looking for an excuse
for Serbian genocide today...

		Regards,
		--- Davor
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:03:44 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <1992Aug21.172229.8035@acuson.com> miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:
>...
>Might China have become as fragmented by contending groups in the
>2nd century as they were in the early 20th?  Could the Romans
>have found some puppets able to raise armies on their behalf?
>
For possible comparison, consider a great Asiatic empire in the 13th century
which really did penetrate the West, namely the Mongols. When the Great Khan
died (in 1247?) all major offensive operations headed west ground to a halt as
their commanders sped home to vie for power among themselves. Thus ended one of
history's most awesome what-if scenarios.  At the peak of their brief moment
in the sun, the Mongols held a patch of real estate that stretched from
the Adriatic to the Pacific!
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Turkmenistan <==> Turkey relationship?
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:21:50 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

traynor@fnalf.fnal.gov wrote:
> With the breakup of the Soviet empire, a number of new countries have
> arisen, one of which is names Turkmenistan.  Are the people historically/
> ethnically/culturally related to the people in Turkey now (it is said that
> the Turkish origin was in Central Asia), and if so, is there any sort of an
> irredentist movement occurring for a union with Turkey in this area?

This goes back a long way - the Turkish tribe (the Oghuz) that conquered
Anatolia left Central Asia about a thousand years ago.  So there is some
linguistic/cultural relationship between the Oghuz and the Central Asian
Turks (Turkmens, Uzbeks, Kirghiz, Yakuts), but it's at the level of that
between the English and the Saxons or the Norman French.  Central Asia
wasn't part of the Ottoman Empire, though some Turkmens lived in areas that
were under Ottoman control (northern Iraq and western Iran).

Placenames all across the Soviet Union as far as the eastern end of the
Arctic Ocean are intelligible if you know Istanbul Turkish, but Central
Asian dialects have enough syntactic and phonological differences to make
mutual understanding marginal.  Culturally, both Anatolian and Central
Asian Turks are Muslim but that's about it; there's not a lot that
specifically relates them more than each is related to Muslim non-Turkic
groups in the area.

Politically, the pressure has all been from the Turkish side; there have
been "pan-Turkic" or "Turanist" organizations since the racial ideologue
Ziya Gokalp at the turn of the century, and this is the main plank in the
platform of Turkish fascists like Alparslan Turkes.  These people fantasize
about a greater Turkish nation stretching from the Balkans to the Kolyma.
Their interest is not being significantly reciprocated.  It's obviously in
the interests of the Central Asian republics to forge links with other
powers than Russia, but from their viewpoint Iran is just as good a bet as
Turkey and geographically closer.

Azerbaijan is a different story: that was Ottoman, and really could drift
back into being an extra province of Turkey (except that the Turkish
government needs somewhere that poor and war-stricken like a hole in the
head).  But it's much closer and the Azeri language is almost identical to
Turkish.

Incidentally, the Turkish government has been recently making quite
substantial efforts at making cultural links with the wider Turkic sphere;
their Ministry of Culture is publishing literature from these areas (though
more from the nearer parts (Azerbaijan and the Balkans) than Central Asia),
and Turkish TV covers Azerbaijan all the time.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Friday, 28 August, 1942
Date: 29 Aug 92 10:50:38 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <10034@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> anthony@cs.uq.oz.au writes:
>The Kokoda tracks (Owen-Stanley Range) where the Japanese and Australian fought 
>is very very steep in many places.  I doubt it very much that the Japanese
>can bring artillery pieces over it so why did the Australians fought for
>the tracks ?  Wouldn't it make more sense to let Japanese move over the
>range and then engage as they the Southern slope before they reach 
>Port Moresby ?

  We have to go on the success of the defense, IMHO.

  The O-S Range is great for defensive work, one "choke-point" after another.
There was a trade-off of distance from supply for distance from the objective.
By fighting farther from the Japanese target, the troops had more room to 
fall back, and they would be doing so onto their own supply lines, improving
their situation with every "retreat."

  The downside to this type of tactic is that heavy jungle poses the possibility
of undetected flanking movements, requiring more manpower for patrols.
  
>--
>Anthony Lee (Time Lord Doctor) (These are my opinions !)
>email: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au	voice:+(61)-7-3651204 FAX:+(61)-7-3651999
>SNAIL: Department Computer Science, The University of Qld, 
>       St Lucia, Qld 4072, Australia

Larry J

-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:03:37 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

ed_eck@milkwy.enet.dec.com wrote:
> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes...
>> ...It was the same deal: do this magic dance and the whites will
>> disappear and we'll get our land back...Are there other historical
>> examples resembling these two stages?
> Also the Zulus in the southern part of Africa toward the end of the 19th
> century; they danced, slaughtered their cattle, burned their crops, and
> sat back to wait for their gods to rescue them. Thousands of them died.

That was the Xhosa, not the Zulus.  According to Credo Mutwa's "My People",
the whole episode was set off by a prophecy from a teenage girl claiming
divine inspiration; he doesn't mention an anti-colonial motivation, but then
his conceptual framework is such that he probably wouldn't mention it even
if he knew of it.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: randall@informix.com (Randall Rhea)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: divide this newsgroup
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:02:19 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

>In <BtpDED.5tx@well.sf.ca.us> rchao@well.sf.ca.us (Robert Chao) writes:


>+>Do you think this group could be subdivided into smaller ones,
>+>for example, soc.history,usa? That way, some of these smaller
>+>groups would not have all that Turkish stuff on it.

How about:

	soc.history.usa.greatest.president.since.teddy.roosevelt
		(or: soc.history.usa.reagan.flame)
    soc.history.revisionism.armenians.actually.killed.turks
	soc.history.revisionism.holocaust.didn't.happen
	soc.history.revisionism.christians.actually.ate.lions
	soc.history.revisionism.europeans.are.totally.evil     
	alt.lifestyle.I.spend.all.my.time.posting.articles.on.usenet


-- 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea                                        Informix Software, Inc. 
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems    uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Upcoming problems of naming
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:00:43 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <CB.92Aug27133612@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
>Czechoslovakia: I assume the eastern part will be simply Slovakia.  What
>about the western part?  Czechia?  Czechland?
>
Maybe, Bohemia & Moravia?

>Next decade: We've gotten in the habit of focusing on decades in a big
>way.  I never heard any consciousness of "the fifties" as an era until
>1966.

Well, how about "The Roaring Twenties"?  "The Gay Nineties"?
	

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Chinese Meet Romans?
Date: 25 Aug 92 10:26:59 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Aug23.033332.15170@anasaz> briand@anasaz (Brian Douglass) writes:
>Yes, but how would the Chinese have responded to an invading power that was
>not racially asian?  The Chinese fighting amongst themselves for power is
>one thing, but against invading Europeans et al?  The most a Caesar could
>have hoped was a luke warm alliance.  Vassalage would have been out of the
>question.

I suspect that you are trying to fit 20th century ideas on the 2nd and
3rd century.  I don't think that 2nd Century Chinese would have much
cared that the Romans didn't look much like them.  After all, to a 2nd
century Chinese there wouldn't have been too much difference between a
Roman and member of the Toba tribe.  They're all barbarians anyway.
:-) :-) :-) :-)
From: fsars@acad3.alaska.edu (Allen R Sparks)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: A Short History ofDiscrimination in the Military
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:07:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Sep3.220708.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <12128@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <16276@pitt.UUCP>, geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>> In article <11954@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> # #Blacks served in the Confederate Army from 1862, and the Union
> # #Army from 1863.  There were segregated black units from then
> # 
> # That's interesting.  It was my understanding that the Confederate
> # Army didn't have blacks.  What is the story on this?
> 
> They were members of a New Orleans unit known as the "Native Guards"
> and after the city fell, they refused to withdraw with other Confederate
> units.  They were all free blacks of New Orleans.

Why did they fight for the Confederate cause in the first place? 
Their staying when the other Confederates withdrew implies that they
knew that the Confederates would not treat them very well.
                    === Al Sparks
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: traynor@fnalf.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Face lifting process (Goodby MUTLU, hello Argic)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:49:01 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalf.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Btvqyq.1Ep@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
> 
>>This joke will open the skies to mankind.
> 
>  Totally agree. The stupidity of Turks has to continue for ever.
>  First it was MUTLU (Master Untrue Totally Lying Units). (Before MUTLU,
>  it was Mr. Palmer.)  Now, the face is geting old, so here Mr. Argic
>  popes up.  Same texts, same material, same stupidity.
> 
>  And above all, same Turks, same future ...
> 
>  
> 
>>Serdar Argic
> 
>>                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
>>                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
>>                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
>>                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
>>                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
> 
>  What? MUTLU's stuff is obsolete? Kill Kurds etc...
>  
> 
> -- 
> ---> Panos Tamamidis
>      University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

If this netwar continues at this pace, soc.history will be truly overwhelmed.
What about a soc.history.anatolia-armenia?  

					-Mike Traynor

NNN  NN DDDD    Mike Traynor (ND '86)(Rice '93?) |||     Amiga 500 owner   ///
 N N N   D  D   Fermilab PO Box 500 MS 221 E683  |||     Only Amiga makes ///
 N  NN   D  D   Batavia IL, 60510               //|\\    it possible  \\\/// 
NN   NN DDDD    (708) 879-6095 [ans. mach.]    /// \\\                 \XX/
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: 50 Years Ago: Thursday, 27 August, 1942
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:03:13 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <24339@oasys.dt.navy.mil| swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) writes:
|In sci.military, military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes:
| |
| |The battleship USS Iowa, first of a new class, is launched.
| |
| |"[Assistant Secretary of the Navy Ralph A Bard] said he would guarantee
| |that she would prove superior to anything that either the Japanese or the
| |Germans could build, with all their stealth." - The New York Times, on the
| |battleship USS Iowa
|
|Was Bard implying that USS Iowa was superior to Japan's Yamato?  Yamato
|was with Japan's main force in the Battle of Midway, June 1942.  Or was
|Bard unware of the Yamato's existence or strength?

   Here's a clue to this:

   "U.S. intelligence was certainly aware of the Yamato and Musashi, (by name)
as late as 1942.  ONI 222 of December 1942 listed them with approximately
the correct length but with far too little beam (only 110 rather than the
correct 127 feet) and as displacing 40,000 to 57,000 tons (rather than the
correct figure of 64,000).  Armament was given officially as nine 16-inch
guns as late as July 1945 (ONI 22-J)."
   Norman Friedman, "U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History",
   United States Naval Institute Press, 1985, pp 308

   Thus Bard seems to be going on the best intelligence available.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steve Williams                           swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil
|---------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry J


-- 
#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)     WWII-L Listowner    jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # 
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:55:04 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California

geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:

>In article <1992Aug26.123014.13981@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>What he also says is that the prophecy itself was probably a colonial hoax.
>>Nongqawuse's revelation was given her by three "Figures" who he claims were
>>agents sent by the colonial administrator Sir George Grey to impersonate
>>traditional deities.  The reasons he gives for suspecting this:

>A recurring theme in history.  What is the first example of conquerors
>posing as deities?  Cortez?  This became an old saw with the Spaniards
>in many places.

	I think one of the Greek historians (Herodotus?) says that
	Athens was conquered by having a very tall woman painted up
	and driving a chariot with runners claiming she was Athena.

	- Michael Goldman

-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
Newsgroups: soc.history
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Sep3.203732.26026@cbfsb.cb.att.com>
	<STEINLY.92Sep3160613@topaz.ucsc.edu>
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:04:31

From the historical point of view, grand Indian alliances against the
whites seem obviously appropriate for them.  However, from the point
of view of individual tribes, the main problem may have been other
tribes rather than the whites.  Moreover, it may be that most of the
time, most tribes were at peace, both with the whites and with other
tribes.  Many treaties that were broken eventually may have lasted
several human lifetimes before that happened.

Another factor is that almost all of the time, white agriculture and
food processing was so superior to Indian food gathering and storing
technology that the whites were a means of getting through bad
winteres.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: joe@astro.as.utexas.edu (Joe Wang)
Newsgroups: soc.history
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:10:00 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <11890@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>The Boxer Rebellion was based on a rather similar idea, that the
>moral purity of the Boxers would protect them from bullets.

There was a Chinese general who wrote a report to the Imperial Court
on the Boxer's claims.  The man was quite an empiricist.  He lined
some Boxers against a wall, told them to do their exercises, and then
had his troops shoot them.  His finding was that the Boxer's exercises
conferred no special resistance to bullets.

Nevertheless, the Imperial Court did support the Boxer Rebellion.  If
the Court acted against the Boxer's, then it would have been seen as
tool of the Western powers and the Boxer rebellion could have turned
into a rebellion that could easily have toppled the already weak Qing
dynasty.

The Court knew well that it was supporting what was likely to be a
hopeless cause, but it desperately hoped for some miracle in which the
Boxers would defeat the Western armies and firm up popular support for
the Qing.

The miracle never happened.  The Boxers were annihilated by the
Western powers, and the Qing court was forced to pay a heavy idemnity
and submit to occupation by the Western powers.


Newsgroups: soc.history
From: kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson)
Subject: Re: Ghost Dance and precedents
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:37:32 GMT

In article <11979@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <1992Aug27.203424.5305@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, kja@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (krista.j.anderson) writes:
> > There were several reasons for
> > the downfall of the Native Americans:  diseases, smaller numbers,
> > technology always one step behind and the ruthlessness of their
> > enemies.
> 
> Perhaps the biggest problem was an inability to form effective
> alliances against the whites.  At least before 1700, it would have
> been a trivial matter to have driven the whites from North
> America.

This is my third attempt to respond to this.  I think what's
bothering me is that there are alliances and then there are massive
alliances.  I would say that the Indians formed some effective
alliances that were temporary and regional.

It's true that the alliances were not as massive as they could have
been.  For example, the Algonquian tribes and Iroquoian tribes of
the Northeast of the 16-1700s would have been stronger together if
they could have united.  However, the same could be said of France
and England during the same time, and a lack of unity did not cause
the downfall of Europe.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm not so sure that European powers
were much better allied than the Indians, but they had larger
populations to begin with so they could afford to not be completely
united, whereas the Indians could not.

In general I will agree that a centrally united entity is more
easily defended than a small local one.  The variety in languages
and cultures of local entities is a luxery that may not always be
affordable.