From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Who do you kneel to when you pray?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:10:58 GMT

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
: 
: >I still disagree. I do not believe that simple profanity is an invocation 
: >of your deity. I believe it to be a strong expression of displeasure, nothing
: >more. Words have power, when you want them to have power - simply using them
: >does not make them powerful. When you pray, or perform any other ritual, in
: >which you invoke a god - then you are conscientiously doing so. You could 
: >just as easily do so without god/goddess names, just a visualization. If you
: >wished, you could easily have a deity with no name - even few characteristics,
: >if that is what you wished. Such a deity would be just as valid as any other.
: 
: There is alot going on in the average subconscious mind. Can anyone be
: certain that the profanity they use is not really an invocation? Can we not
: therefore imbue these words with power subconsciously?

I don't believe that the subconscious will, if that is what you can call it,
would have the power to have any effect on such a short "ritual". Directing
of conscious intent is bound to be much more effective. After all, if a deity
is capable of answering an invocation, wouldn't that deity also have the 
ability to perceive if the person really wantes/needed their presence? If a
person made a habit of willfully cursing others, then I could see where this
subconscious call could occur. 

You might imbue the words with power. However, most are so often used in a
non-serious or non-religious way that it would seem to be unlikely for most
people.

: >Agreed - assuming that you believe that any such invoking can produce 
: >undesireable consequences. It all comes down to personal belief. If you
: >believe that making a statement of displeasure (which happens to contain
: >the name of a diety) is invoking that deity, then I can understand your
: >feelings.
: 
: And that and my comment above about subconscious direction of power into
: words is really what it's all about. I don't have a deity that I follow,
: so I often say "God Damn it!" or "Christ on a mini bike!", but if I feel
: an inner twinge that I should be careful (and I think alot of the folk here
: can say they've felt and recognized similar twinges of wrongness), I won't
: do it. I only say what I've said to give everyone here something to think
: about. What's right for me isn't necessarily right for anyone else.

Exactly. Some people feel they are able to invoke the aid of their deity or
deities easily. Others feel that they cannot do so at all. Some people would
not dream of cursing another person, at least - not seriously. Others live
a very negative life where they feel they have to get even for any perceived
slight.

If I invoke the name of a deity in a simple "profane" statement, such as 
you give examples of above, I can guarantee that it is not an intended curse.
Any deity should be able to recognize that. At least, I have not had any 
respond yet - nor has any deity been desired. The only time I have felt a
"twinge" is when I was making the statement to a person larger and stronger
than I am. At that point, it was kind of like a little voice in the back of
the mind saying "Your going to get your ass kicked if you keep that up!"
type of twinge.

: >I think it would be better to state that one should not perform any sort
: >of magical ritual without being aware of possible consequences. For that
: >matter, a person should not perform any kind of ritual, without being
: >aware of possible consequences. Magic need not be involved.

: Agreed, but it applies to everything, even profanity.

Not necessarily. Some people may consider everything to be ritual, magic or
otherwise. To me, ritual requires conscious intent. I feel that "rote ritual"
would be totally ineffectual. I do not classifiy momentary profane outbursts
as ritual - rote or otherwise. 

Once again, it is a matter of personal perception. 

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan