HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anson@netcom.com (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Re: crash...
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:00:14 GMT

philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens) writes:

>Anson Kennedy writes:

>>The point is that with 5 billion people dreaming every night, 
>>occasionally someone will dream of *something* which seems to
>>correspond to an actual event.  If you had not heard the report
>>of the actual accident, your dream would probably be quickly
>>forgotten.

>  These sort of arguments don't get you anywhere.  You could be having real
>precognitive dreams and still dismiss them because they are "statistically
>bound to happen".

Alternatively, you could have a dream which is "statistically bound
to happen" and falsely attribute it to precognition.

Which possibility satisfies Occam's Razor?

>  Personally, I think the invention of statistics by the scientific community
>was a scam to make it easier for them to ignore the hard questions :-) :-)

If ignoring the issue were the object, no answer would be 
offered at all.  Now would it? :^)
-- 

Anson Kennedy                                                  anson@netcom.com
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

"If you don't watch the violence,   \           "If I had been the Virgin Mary,
you'll never get desensitized to it." \                I would have said 'No.'"
-Bart Simpson                           \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: 002369c@ace.acadiau.ca (WILLIAM FREDERICK CUSTANCE)
Subject: Flying,hands,etc
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:46:34 GMT

Last night I dreampt that I was with a freind in some building.  
I became aware that it was a dream (don't ask me how) so as a result of the 
groups discusion about telling dream characters about the dream itself, I 
told him,"Hey, you know what? We're dreaming. He said, " Oh my God! I don't 
beleive this!",in a surprised but happy tone. I then proceded to fly (the 
building disapeared) and he flew next to my. We flew down to a beach and 
met up with two old friends from **AKK!**CHOKE!**SPUTTER!**WERRRR!**
**high school** (trust me, I really did like it).And time passed on, and I 
remembered something else about the topics on this newsgroup. I looked down 
at my hands, and one was fine, but the other was blurry. I found it no 
problem to look at my hands, but how the hands looked was the only problem.
If I looked out of only my right eye, everything was fine, but if I opened 
the left eye, my left hand was blurred. The opposite happened when I looked 
out of my left eye to start off. But I played around with this for some 
time. And just when I thought I had overcame the problem, I closed both 
eyes, opened my right. Everything was great. Opened my left eye. 
My hands fused into one slightly larger than normal hand. It had lines 
runing from the tipps all the way to the wrist, and I got fed up by this 
point. And left the dream.
I think the only reason why I dreampt this, was because of this group. 
I had never before made a point of looking at my hands in any dream.
But, I probably wanted to see what all of the fuss was all about. You know 
what? You were right about the hands.  But, the power of suggestion worked 
it's spell on me as I slipped into that damn dream. Thanks.
Bill
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 92 20:32:04 CST
From:         C09615DK@wuvmd.wustl.edu
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject:      Re: Theory on dreaming
Newsgroups:   alt.dreams

>
>In article <10NOV199215371351@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu>, 0695cs14@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu
>(Silicon Vulture) says:
>
>In article <1des49INNfbe@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, fusion@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
>(The Rocket Scientist) writes...
>
>>It seems to me that the most bizarre dreams occur during the DEEPEST
>>sleep, i.e. the dreams that seem to have no link to the real world.
>
>Dreams always occur in REM sleep which is not deep at all.  I've heard
>that some nightmares occur in stage four sleep (the deepest), but I've
>never heard of any other kind of sleep occuring below stage one.
>
From what I remember from my Intro. to Psych. class, this is true.  What has
been 'found' to occur is that people usually go through about 4 cycles of sleep
each one 'interrupted' by one dream.  Each successive cycle's dream is shorter
(I don't remember anything about less color, plot, etc.), ie. each REM period
is shorter than the previous one.

In addition, Night Terrors, BedWetting, and SleepWalking have been found to
occur in the Deepest STAGE of sleep, indicating that the person is not actually
'dreaming' during these night-marish activities, rather that something else is
going on in the mind.


>>But in the late morning, when you are not quite as deep into sleep,
>>such as snoozing after turning your alarm off, you seem to have more
>>real life dreams, probably influenced by actual happenings around you,
>>(sounds you hear, and the like).  But in a DEEP sleep, the dreams are
>>ENTIRELY influenced by the subconscious mind alone, rather than a
>>mixture of the two when you're somewhat 'awake'.  Any opinions?
>
>From what I understand, what happens is the exact opposite.  People
>generally have four or more dreams a night.  The first few dreams
>tend to be pretty bland.  Very little color, nothing exciting happens,
>nobody interresting to talk to.  The dreams that happen later are the
>ones that tend to have more plot, more detail, more color, etc.
>
>Unfortunately, I don't recall who did this study.
[.sig deleted]

I don't remember this, sorry (I don't even think it was mentioned).

Just my 2cents--Dan K
From: s_titz@ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: crash...
Date: 10 Nov 1992 16:48:34 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft math/inf, Uni Karlsruhe, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: irau30.ira.uka.de

In article <1992Nov9.105936.20418@yang.earlham.edu> connebr@yang.earlham.edu (Brandon Connerly) writes:

>[precognitive dreams]
>There is an explanation that doesn't require any of this messy statistics
>stuff. The dreamer could have heard about the crash on the radio, from 

I surely can confirm I had NO radio on. (I'm sleeping with the radio
on regularly enough and know the effects of it in detail...)

>someone talking about it nearby, shouts from outside the window,etc. Lord

Maybe, but *unlikely*. And the unlikeliness makes it interesting...
(cf. the statistical arguments...)

>knows I've had this happen while slleping with the radio on enough times.
>Spooked the hell out of me until I dreamt about something that was so
>exhilarating I woke up right away, got depressed because I thought it was
>only a dream, and then heard the rest of the news story on the radio.

*grin* Tell me what it was...
Either the fall of the Berlin Wall or the election of Bill Clinton,
right? ;-)
 
olaf
-- 
| Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student  |   o     | uknf@dkauni2.bitnet | old address |
| univ. of karlsruhe - germany |  _>\ _  | s_titz@ira.uka.de   | is still    |
| +49-721-60439                | (_)<(_) | praetorius@irc      | valid       |
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: Who do these characters get peeved?
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:37:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.034957.22098@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> sdt8s@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Steve Tilson) writes:
>I think the reason characters in a dream get peeved when you
>tell them they're dreams is that we EXPECT them to. Since
>they're just creations of our own minds, and bound by the
>parameters of our minds, they react in the way we expect them
>to.

Well, *I* sure wasn't expecting the responses I got.  I don't what I was
expecting -- maybe amusement or surprise.

But your explanation does make some sense in retrospect.  There is an idea
(I think from Jung) that everyone in your dream is you, in some form.
They are not marionettes, but their reactions will make sense if you
look at it from their point of view.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 92 19:52:50 CST
From:         C09615DK@wuvmd.wustl.edu
To:           NETNEWS@WUVMD
Subject: Dreaming (what else :) )
Newsgroups:   alt.dreams

I'm wondering if anyone else has had the following experience (although I
imaging it is not uncommon), mainly because it happened to me just last night
and has happened many times to me in the past:

I woke up last night after the first cycle of REM sleep and could remember my
dream quite perfectly (the first cycle, although I doubt that I remember
correctly, is about 15 minutes long starting about one hour into sleep).
At each successive cycle I woke up and remembered each dream PLUS the dream I
had had in previous cycles (ie.In cycle four I woke up remembering four dreams)
They were not unpleasant dreams, and I DID remember them for some time after I
awoke to go to classes, but I'm just wondering if there may be something wrong
with my sleep cycle.

Just in case it matters, this doesn't USUALLY happen to me (although once in a
while it does, obviously), and in fact I rarely retain my dreams, although when
I was younger I woke up remembering my dreams much more frequently.

Still dreamily--Dan K
From: marcs@yang.earlham.edu (Marc Seebass(Thunderbolt))
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: RE:flight
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:03:02 GMT
Organization: Earlham College, Richmond, Indiana

In article <4NOV199219484090@rosie.uh.edu>, st1fa@rosie.uh.edu (GREETINGS FROM THE LONE STAR STATE) writes:
> 
> 	I've had many dreams, especially when I was little.  That if I could
> just run and jump up into the air, I would be able to fly.  I loved the 
> sensation too.  I'm envious...I haven't had a flying dream in 7 years.

Same here, I hear they represent freedome and or the ability to escape reality.
I haven't had one in a whle, but they do occur.

---Marc Seebass
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: ...the lack thereof?
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 19:38:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.044223.23744@nmt.edu> dave@cyborg1.nmt.edu (Dave Cuddihy) writes:
>	Any insight on why some people dream a whole lot with plenty of
>	gory details still lingering when they wake, and others(myself
>	included) can't recall anything of note between turning out the
>	light and turning off the alarm?

Individual variation aside, there are some lifestyle factors.  Diet is one.
How much you sleep is another -- the longer the better.

Good dream recall can take practice.  Try not moving when you wake up
(a hard thing to remember in itself) and recalling what you can.  Write
it down soon after.  If things happen to you during the day that remind
you of other dreams or parts of dreams, write those down as well.

It's very hard to have lucid dreams without good recall, and it's hard
for most people to recall dreams unless they practice, at least a little.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: 0695cs14@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Silicon Vulture)
Subject: Re: Precognitve dreams
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41A   
Organization: University of Houston-Downtown
X-Lunar-Date: 1 day, 11 hours, 59 minutes since the first quarter of the moon
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:37:00 GMT

In article <MAD.92Nov4094012@spirit.clearpoint.com>, mad@spirit.clearpoint.com
(Michael Davis) writes...

>On 4 Nov 92 03:10:19 GMT, phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris
>Saltzman) said:

SCS:
I am taught by my Christian friends that E.S.P. dreams are
not good to have.
"Oh no,Another idiot listening to Christians again!"
Not quite,I have theological views that are complex enough
to leave most in the dirt,THAT is NOT my problem.

SV:
Complex theological views?  That could be interresting to discuss,
but this is alt.dreams so I'll keep to the topic.

SCS:
I simply need constructive Scientific,New age,Christian and
other input to make a better decision and you guys seem like
the type to help me.

MD:
A better explanation of your friend's objections might help.  In
general I think information is never a bad thing to have.  At worst
your reaction to the information may get you in trouble.  My personal
philosophy doesn't argue with others on matters of faith, so I don't
want to say anything that could be interpreted as anti-religious.

SV:
Examine the Biblical prophets and you'll find lots of dreams that
were foretold the future (i.e. Daniel).  For new testament scriptures
on the subject read the book of Acts.  Frequently the disciples were
warned by angels in their dreams.  Finally, one of the gifts that
are given to Christians is the gift of prophecy.

SCS:
The precognitive abilities I have experienced are infallable
and ALWAYS negative(not a friendly combo).

MD:
I don't know what you mean by negative.  At any rate, the least that
could happen is that you can apply the notion that `forewarned is
forearmed.'  Certain knowledge of an upcoming bad event allows you to
make preparations that will minimize its negative impact on your life.

SCS:
If you have a philosophy,Viewpoint or comment please post it.
Scriptures welcome but keep them limited and to the point.
Books would help also!
Thankyou,

SV:
I don't think psychic dreams are inherently good or evil.  It's what
you do with them that counts.

  |  Silicon Vulture         |  ---ooo-(0 0)-ooo---                |
  |  0695cs14@dt3.dt.uh.edu  |           U          "Kilroy who?"  |
From: Robert.T.Warfield@dartmouth.edu (Robert T. Warfield)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: Dream Experiment '92...
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:00:53 GMT
 <1992Nov11.172417.7627@wam.umd.edu> <1952@lysator.liu.se>  
 <1992Nov12.142432.1801@wam.umd.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0b1@newshost.dartmouth.edu


  Why not meet in the Ten-Foward lounge of the Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701D. I've always wnated to try out some stuff there.

**********************************************************************
* Arthur, king of the Britons    * King of the who?                  *
* King of the Brittons!          * Who are the Brittons anyway?      *
* I am, you are, we all are the  *                                   *
* Brittons and I am your king!   * Well, I didn't vote for you.      *
**********************************************************************
Robert T. Warfield@dartmouth.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: miket@hermes.tcs.com (Michael Turner nmscore Assoc.)
Subject: Re: Brain Disagreement
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Distribution: national
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:08:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.171518.1@gacvx1.gac.edu> mew@gacvx1.gac.edu writes:
>In article <Bwyt7E.FpM@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, halljw@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Johann Gambleputty) writes:
>> Ok...I think I've got this lucid dream stuff down...but here's what happens
>> every time I KNOW I'm in a dream.  I'll decide that "Ahaa!.  This is a dream.
>> I'll do what I want!"  As soon as I make that decision...all hell breaks
>> loose.  Nothing goes the way I plan and I wind up dying EVERY time.
>
>This is close to the problem I have.  When I am dreaming, I almost never know
>that it is only a dream (even when some obviously strange things are
>happening).  Anyway, if or when I do figure out that I am dreaming I always
>wake up... I can never keep dreaming.  Does anyone know what I can do to keep
>myself dreaming?  Just wondering,
>                                  Matt.

Part of this might be because sleep has its own cycles -- you might have been
close to waking up in any case, lucid or not.  All other things being equal,
the longer a dream goes on, the greater your chance of realizing that you're
dreaming.  The bad news is that your chance of being near the end of the
dream and of being near waking also increases as the dream-length increases.

Another part of this might be that you are simply too excited, either about
what's happening in the dream, or about being lucid.  A certain equanimity
helps.  LaBerge documents this phenomenon.

Practice helps.  Once you get confidence that you can achieve lucidity (and
can contain your frustration about the short duration of it), you will
start becoming lucid sooner in your dreams, and be less excited about it,
both of which will make the lucid state last longer.

My advice: persist gently, taking your seeming "failures" as "moderate
successes".  LaBerge claims some correlation between meditation and
ease of lucidity, so that's something you might try.  Don't PLAN out
what your lucid dream should be -- just let it happen while trying to hold
onto the fundamental premise: that you're dreaming.  If you plan something,
and "all hell breaks loose", you might be waking up in part because of the
intensity of your disappointment, added to all else you would ordinarily
feel.  Just LET all hell break loose, if that's what it's going to do.
Be determined to just ride it as far as it will go, and get your sense of
accomplishment from that.
---
Michael Turner
miket@tcs.com
Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 1992 15:54:26 -0500 
From: "Robert W. Jordan" <rj25+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS, and Dreams

I've never heard so much b.s. in my entire life.  Just what kind of
freakish cult are you in?  You say all that is true as if we should all
just believe it.  Something tells me quite a few demons are whispering
in your ears.
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: preiser@cancer.unm.edu (Doug Preiser)
Subject: Re: crash...
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 23:14:39 GMT
Organization: UNM Cancer Center
Reply-To: preiser@cancer.unm.edu

In article <philip.721012849@labtam>, philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens) writes:
>Anson Kennedy writes:
>
>>The point is that with 5 billion people dreaming every night, 
>>occasionally someone will dream of *something* which seems to
>>correspond to an actual event.  If you had not heard the report
>>of the actual accident, your dream would probably be quickly
>>forgotten.
>
>  These sort of arguments don't get you anywhere.  You could be having real
>precognitive dreams and still dismiss them because they are "statistically
>bound to happen".

The only time an event is "statistically bound to happen" is after that event
has happened. Then we can describe its probability as 100%.

>  Personally, I think the invention of statistics by the scientific community
>was a scam to make it easier for them to ignore the hard questions :-) :-)

From the book The Nature of Statistics by Wallis and Roberts:
"Statistics is a body of methods for making wise decisions in the face of
uncertainty."

When we have a hard question, and not enough evidence to support a definitive
answer, we can use statistics to point us in the right direction.  In fact,
once we have enough evidence on precognative dreams, statistical methods can
indicate to us whether our results are really evidence of precognition or
whether they are due only to random coincidence.
>
>-- 
>| Philip Stephens, Systems Programmer. | %%%%  %     Labtam Australia Pty Ltd |
>| Address:  43 Malcolm Road, Braeside, |   % % % %     "Applied Ingenuity"    |
>|           Victoria, 3195, AUSTRALIA. |  %  % %  %  We make the fastest RISC |
>| Internet: philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au | %%%%% %%%%% X terminals in the world | 
            
Doug.
   Internet: preiser@cancer.unm.edu
   Bitnet:   preiser@unmb                     I do M
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: dave@cyborg1.nmt.edu (Dave Cuddihy)
Subject: ...the lack thereof?
Organization: NMT Math
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:42:23 GMT

As I flip through alt.dreams it's usually with envy! I rarely have dreams that I
remember the next morning, and the last experience even vaguely similar to a lucid
dream was eons ago! (My last  "Geez! This is crazy! I must be dreaming...Oh,
whaddaya know...I am!" occurrence was probably several years ago)
	To add insult to injury I know people who wish they dreamt less! i.e. it
interferes with their sleep(and waking life sometime too!). 

	Any insight on why some people dream a whole lot with plenty of gory
details still lingering when they wake, and others(myself included) can't recall
anything of note between turning out the light and turning off the alarm?

			Have fun,
			 -Dave

Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: daveg@peewee.nwc.navy.mil (David R. Gagnon           Code 3814                               Phone 939-1416)
Subject: shared dream?
Organization: NAVAIRWARCENWPNDIV, China Lake
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:07:18 GMT

Something happened today, or rather last night, that I thought
readers of this group might find interesting.  My young son and
I sure did!  Last night I had my first flying dream in quite a 
long time and to make up for lost flying time I spent a lot of 
dream time aloft.  I was even teaching other people to fly.
Anyway, this was such a neat dream that I mentioned it to my 
wife this morning.  She commented that that was interesting 
because our nine year old son had just mentioned his dream to her;
"something about flying...I couldn't make sense out of what he
told me," she said.  This evening at bedtime, after we had read
together, I asked him about his dream and he excitedly related
to me parts of his dream in which he had flown awkwardly and had
watched me flying "really high."  This was really cool, because
we felt like we had actually dreamed together and we don't 
normally discuss our dreams.  
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: marvil@lysator.liu.se (Martin Vilcans)
Subject: Re: Telepathy in Dreams (The Dreamer)
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:48:48 GMT

angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.) writes:

>In article <92316.021325SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu> Senthil Ramas Kumar <SRK106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>really interesting, can we as a whole group do some more experiments along
>>these lines ?
>>
>>Kumar

>Uh-oh, here we go again, Dreamer!  If we do it again, this will be
>the fourth, I believe, yes?  :)  

>Well, I'm much better at lucid dreaming than I was for the last 3 experiments,
>and I've had several shared dreams with people since then, too...

I think it would be fun and interesting doing the experiment again. I'm new to
this newsgroup, and I'm not a very good dreamer, but I have noticed that
since I started reading this group, I seem to remember my dreams more often,
so I seem to be learning. But who wants to organize the whole thing? I could
do it, but I think an American would do it better (because of language
problems etc.).


Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: csmcm@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Mary C. McDaniel)
Subject: Dying (but it was only a dream. . .)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1992 15:23:53 GMT
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

Last Friday I suddenly remembered a dream I'd had sometime during the
week:  I was dying, could literally feel the life rushing out of me
(a mass of gold light rushing out of my chest (-:), and by God I was
terrified.  "Fortunately," once the life was gone, so was my consciousness
and consequently my fear-- I was simply over, gone, dead, and that was
the end of the dream.

I've had previous dreams of _having_ died, of seeing myself in a casket;
I've even had a prophetic dream of a stranger's death: I heard a name
spoken very loudly as I slept, and learned of this person's death from
a friend who knew him).  But this one's a bit odd, even for me.  On the
other hand, if it accurately described death, I know now that we can
all handle it . . . (-: .  But I'm still curious about the reason or
meaning behind this dream. Any comments/suggestions?

-- Mary