HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnson@sleipnir.pb.wes.mot.com (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Reply-To: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Wireless Enterprises, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:29:50 GMT

In article <EIVERSON.93Jan6221336@aiaia.nmsu.edu>, eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) writes:
=)
=)I think a good measure of intelligence would be whether, after joining
=)Mensa, you have the good sense to quit.  I can honestly say that I
=)have never met a bigger bunch of minutiae crazed, self-important
=)blowhards in my life.  My next door neighbor (170 IQ, Ph.D in physics
=)at age 21) who joined with me was even more infuriated.  Sort of like
=)the meeting the bottom 2 percent of the top 2 percent.  As far as I'm
=)concerned, the truly intelligent are those who don't have time to pat
=)themselves on the back for having such a wonderful brain, because
=)they're too busy using it.  But then what do I know?  I'm only working
=)on my second Master's degree.  Maybe I shoulda joined Densa instead.
=)
Speaking of self-important blowhards... :-)
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Johnson"                              |Just because you're paranoid doesn't|
| johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com |   mean they're not out to get you. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Let's face it; if our lawyers knew what went on here, they'd shut us down.  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: drich@sandman.lerc.nasa.gov (Daniel Rich)
Subject: Re: Membership Renewal ??
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:20:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.182845.13884@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper) writes:
>We could always make it a rule that current Mensa members must
>be friendly to new Mensa members.  Would that solve the problem?
><said with a look of wide-eyed innocence>

Hmmmm...make a rule and expect Mensans to follow it.....  What an
interesting concept! :-)

As a side note (since this started out as a discussion about renewals
and dues increases), has anyone seen a copy of the current
budget/spending report?  I have heard that last year had a significant
deficit.

-- 



-- 
Dan Rich                    | drich@lerc.nasa.gov   |  (216) 433-4000
Sr. Systems Engineer        | "Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
RMS Technologies, Inc.      |    "No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
NASA Lewis Research Center  | -- The Firesign Theatre's Nick Danger

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: CADS_COLE@GALLUA.BITNET (Kevin Cole; Washington DC)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Gallaudet Research Institute
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:28:17 GMT


Are there any decent IQ tests for deaf individuals?  The development of spoken 
and hence written language, in a significant number of deaf folks, is somewhat 
slower than that of their hearing peers...  

Just a thought.
-- 

 ========== U.S. Mail =============================== E-Mail =================
 Kevin Cole      <Flatline>           |  Bitnet: CADS_COLE@GALLUA.BITNET
 Gallaudet Research Institute  (GRI)  |  Internet: KJCOLE@GALLUX.GALLAUDET.EDU
 Washington, D.C.  20002-3625         |  UUCP: ...!psuvax!gallua.bitnet!kjcole
 (202) 651-5575  x4592                |  The WELL:   kjcole
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:54:00 GMT


>From: Arnold J Rimmer <ajr%ice.massima.com@surname.draper.com>
>Message-ID: <1993Jan11.103830@massima.com>
>
>People People People...
>
>What is all the fuss about?
>
>IQ tests are not true indicators of intelligence or of mental accuity...
>Outside of academic pursuits, does anyone really care what your IQ, SAT,
>or GPA scores are?  Only to those who use it as a crutch, perhaps to make
>up for something that they lack in other areas.

Ask a pre-med student to stop fussing about his/her grades and MCAT
scores!  Without good ones, he/she can forget about even getting the
chance to try to become a doctor.  Oh, sorry, medicine is just an
academic pursuit...  What about those Wall Street firms that asked for
SAT scores?  Or those companies that tested management with Miller
Analogies?  Or those professions that require standardized tests of
continuing competency?

>One cannot possibly judge the intelligence of an indivudual by a mere
>test on paper.  And what right do they have to grade my intelligence or
>potential by their set standards.

I concur with your sentiment, but harsher judgements are made
in the workaday world.  Say you're interviewing someone for
a high management position involving public relations, and you
discover he/she got confused when you used the words "retain",
"usurp", and "defer" in you sentences.  You might even become
suspicious if the folder indicates he/she should be a verbally
proficient person.  In fact, you'd probably wonder if this
person really has it upstairs, assuming he/she went to school
in the U.S.  In other words, you've just made an IQ judgement,
on the basis of far fewer "vocabulary" words than would appear
on an IQ test.

In fact, if someone didn't know the meaning of just one word,
like "coincidence", many people would probably think he/she's
an "idiot".  Tell me that's fair???  It happens all the time -
a one-word intelligence test.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:21:00 GMT


>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>Message-ID: <1993Jan7.233556.24891@julian.uwo.ca>
>
>Yes, I too have noticed this. The worst thing is that those people
>think that the fact that they got a high score on one of those tests
>proves that they are so smart.... What a joke.

Usually, it does also mean they're smart, as many people would think of
it.  Usually, that is - it doesn't prove it.  Unfortunately, it doesn't
as often indicate they're motivated, or that they're able to concentrate
on anything long enough to accomplish something significant.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: johnson@sleipnir.pb.wes.mot.com (Mark Johnson)
Subject: IQ negatives
Reply-To: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Wireless Enterprises, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 12:34:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.160118.6151@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, mukesh@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mukesh Prasad) writes:
=)In article <1993Jan5.140548.21802@wam.umd.edu> amanda@wam.umd.edu (Me again) writes:
=)> In article <01GSYXPOFNKIADDCAK@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
=)> 
=)...
=)> 
=)> Does anyone else on this forum occasionally get the feeling from society
=)> that a little smart is better, more useful, than a lot?  To clarify, that 
=)
=)It is quite possible that what makes a person have a high IQ
=)may also have negative effects.
=)
=)Even if there isn't something of this nature from a biochemical
=)point of view, it does appear that the person with a lot
=)of "smart"s will soon learn that s/he is usually more often right
=)than not -- negative effect of this being that s/he will not
=)learn to change his or her mind (easily) when wrong.  This will
=)then have a negative effect on the general process
=)of learning.
=)
=)Also, almost everybody (at least on this newsgroup) must have
=)met people who are clearly very bright, but got too bored
=)by the math teacher or by all their friends...
=)
=)In other words, very high IQs may have various self limiting
=)factors involved.
=)
=)  /Mukesh
In addition, an abundance of native learning ability may encourage
some individuals to "coast" through elementary and/or high school
without learning the discipline and habits required to succeed in
higher education or in the workplace.  This has been one of my
failings.

Also, some people fall into the trap of thinking that their IQ
justifies their existence on its own merits, and that useful or
marketable work is beneath them.  I guess most people could name
a name or two here.
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Johnson"                              |Just because you're paranoid doesn't|
| johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com |   mean they're not out to get you. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Let's face it; if our lawyers knew what went on here, they'd shut us down.  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: robin@severian.chi.il.us (Robin Carkhuff)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Just throw everything in the junk drawer
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 02:04:24 GMT

I just joined this thread, but I thought I'd add a special education
teacher's view on IQ scores and their meanings.  I work in a
residential psychiatric facility with patients between the 6th  and 12th
grades.  Before a student starts the school program, I am given a
large packet of information about him/her, including a very recent IQ
score.  I firmly believe that there is no one test that accurately
pinpoints an individual's intellectual ability, yet I find the IQ
score very useful.  

The number tells me * how well that kid will achieve in a regular
American school setting using common teaching methods *. 

If I care to, I can look for explanations for a certain score, such
as the level of depression, length of stay in the US, deprivation at
home, drug use, or sheer uncooperativeness.  These further insights
will help me determine the best way to teach the student, but the
original score gives me a starting point.

Incidentally, I tend not to read the IQ score before meeting the
student; I like to form my own first impression.

Robin
From: zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Favorite Beverages
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:15:46 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

did i already say:

Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout

when not available, pick one:

Guinness, Samuel Smith's Strong Pale Ale, London Pride (Fuller's),
Chimay (red label)

if driving:

Diet Pepsi, preferably slightly flat

  No Trespassing: 4/17ths of a haiku.     D.Budd@mcc.ac.uk   fax 6040
  Dave Budd, MCC, Oxford Rd, Manchester, England    (44|0)61-275-6033
From: phil@miracle.com (Phil Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: questionable cancels?
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:16:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: miracle.12Jan93031604
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>
>FYI, according to this news control message, EDWARD LEE
>BALDWIN canceled one of Mike Steiner's messages.  In fact, three
>other messages of his were canceled in the same manner, and all
>from NCSU.EDU, previously abused by the tedious "Scott Tai".
>Mike, did you agree to this cancelation?
>
>Just thought I'd let people know, since most news systems
>just silently delete messages in response to control messages,
>which only show up in the "control" newsgroup.

I was wondering what happened to mike, I haven't seen a posting from him in
a long time. - -  Mike are you there?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Hill                     | "All you people in TV land,           |
| Miracle Computer Consultants  |   I will wake up your empty shells.   |
|                               |  Peak time viewing blown in a flash,  |
|                               |   as I burn into your memory cells.   |
| Email: phil@miracle.com       |  'cause I'm alive." - Peter Gabriel   |
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:16:00 GMT


>>As far as changes in IQ, I'd be interested to know how controlled the
>>circumstances were when documenting 30 to 40 point changes.  I,
>>personally, have got a fairly inconsistent set of results:
>>
>>Age    IQ
>>---------------------
>>7      179  test unknown
>>13     110  test unknown
>>18     135  estimated through percentile from SAT
>>18     144  estimated through percentile from ACT
>>34     165  Langdon Polymath (self-scored)
>>
>>My own theory is that I think differently enough from most people that I
>>can excel in some areas which are considered difficult, while falling down
>>in others which most people find easier.  Thus, my score is far more
>>dependent on the individual test, or even the individual questions, than
>>people whose mental skills are arranged in a more typical fashion.  In
>>particular, I would score higher on a test which was designed with
>>questions and problems that the writers considered harder.  It
>>could be interpreted, though, that my IQ dropped an amazing 69 points in
>>the second seven years of my life, and rebounded almost completely since
>>then.  I suspect I may be highly abnormal in this inconsistency, but most
>>probably not unique.
>>
>
>You have two well standardised test scores which fall roughly within the
>margin of error for each of the tests.  You have two scores, widely varying,
>both taken at a young age, about which nothing can be said.  And you have
>the last score which I do not believe has any validity or comparability to
>any accepted IQ score.

The typical correlation between almost any pair of IQ tests, including
the LAIT and the Mega with other more "official" IQ tests, is about .6
on the general population.  The kind of spread shown above is not
unusual.   Scores stay only within the margin of error when different
forms of one test are administered within the same year or so - that is
all that is claimed by the "reliability" of a test in the publishers'
specs.

Some of the kiddie tests award a disproportionate number of very high
scores, at least in terms of the normal distribution.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Another thought...(Not even close)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:52:04 GMT

In article <93004.153005FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> <FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> "Larry Wink" writes:
>In article <jgs1.726138144@Isis.MsState.Edu>, jgs1@ra.msstate.edu (jimi
>strickland) says:
>>
>>  Having scored an 'A' on the first four reports, I felt that I had
>>  demonstrated sufficient reading comprehension and ability to report on
>>  what I had read.  Therefore, I stopped reading the books and reporting
>>  on them and devoted my time to more academic pursuits.  Needless to say,
>>  my grade in that class was poor.  The professor let me withdraw from the
>>  class with a passing grade, but I am required to take it again.
>
>An example of what's wrong with the current educational system (and society
>as a whole) - let's not ever hold someone reponsible for their actions.

See, Larry, that's the problem with people like you.  You seem to think
that people have free will or something, and are not complete products of
their environment.  I feel sorry for you that you don't buy into the
philosophy of "from each according to their ability" and so on.

Also, you seem to think that "life experience" is not as important as
some piece of paper on the wall.  

That's why I continue to practice neurosurgery without having wasted
seven to ten years in medical school.  I learned it the old-fashioned
way, but just getting in their and getting my hands dirty.  

Now that I'm ready to open up my third head, I'd like to volunteer to
do an operation of his choice on our friend Strickland, completely
free of charge, satisfaction guaranteed.

GMS
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Evolution?
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:00:31 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <C0Jq0E.F7G@world.std.com>, kkirksey@world.std.com (Ken B
Kirksey) wrote:
> 
> In article <mike_steiner-070193102944@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
> >In article <1993Jan4.204851.17743@julian.uwo.ca>, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca
> >(Eric Roberts) wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, I do not believe in evolution, and I have yet to see any reason
> >> why I should. There is plently of evidence against it.
> >
> >On the contrary; there is plenty of evidence for it.  There is precious
> >little evidence against it.  Although the mechanism of evolution is not
> >fully understood, that does not mean that evolution doesn't exist.
> >
> >Evolution happens.
> >
> Hey, Mike!  Looks like we get to carry this discussion on over two
> nets.
>  
> You might not have gotten my post on the fido MENSA echo yet, so I'll
> repeat it here.  If someone came up and asked you how you know that
> evolution happens, what would you tell them?  What examples would
> you give to PROVE that purely naturalistic evolution is responsible for
> all life on this planet?

Hi, Ken.  I'd save the messages from this forum and show them to the
questioner.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:57:23 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1993Jan8.131706.20033@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>,
johnson@sleipnir.pb.wes.mot.com (Mark Johnson) wrote:

> As far as changes in IQ, I'd be interested to know how controlled the
> circumstances were when documenting 30 to 40 point changes.  I,
> personally, have got a fairly inconsistent set of results:
> 
> Age	IQ
> ---------------------
> 7	179  test unknown
> 13	110  test unknown
> 18	135  estimated through percentile from SAT
> 18	144  estimated through percentile from ACT
> 34	165  Langdon Polymath (self-scored)
> 
> My own theory is that I think differently enough from most people that I
> can excel in some areas which are considered difficult, while falling down
> in others which most people find easier.  Thus, my score is far more
> dependent on the individual test, or even the individual questions, than
> people whose mental skills are arranged in a more typical fashion.  In
> particular, I would score higher on a test which was designed with
> questions and problems that the writers considered harder.  It
> could be interpreted, though, that my IQ dropped an amazing 69 points in
> the second seven years of my life, and rebounded almost completely since
> then.  I suspect I may be highly abnormal in this inconsistency, but most
> probably not unique.
> 
> Another question might be who actually documented these changes.  If it
> was somebody intent on demonstrating a system for increasing IQ, I would
> be more skeptical of the results than if it was more pure research.  Any
> details, Eric, on these 30 to 40 point changes you mentioned?
> 
> Also BTW, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else experiences the
> level of inconsistency that I do, or has any better explanation for it,
> just for my own curiosity.

Comparing IQ scores from different tests is meaningless.  You have to
compare percentiles normed against the general populace.  An IQ of 148 on
the Cattell equates to an IQ of 132 on the WAIS.  A score of 140 on the
Army GT test (before 1978) equated to the 98th percentile of the people
taking it, but a score of 136 equated to the 98th percentile of the general
populace.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:9065 news.answers:4926
From: zwanenbu@nlzcl.decnet.philips.nl (Godwin Zwanenburg)
Subject: Re: Lament
Organization: Centre for Manufacturing Technology
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:42:01 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.094520.5456@cs.utwente.nl>, helpdesk@cs.utwente.nl ([BenO helpdesk dispatcher]) writes:
> At the New Year's Reception here in NL at the weekend I saw pieces on
> the IG at the Flevohof in October in several American Mensa Journals. Glad 
> you folks enjoyed yourselves here!
> The group photo taken on Sunday was in Lament - I would very much like a 
> copy - can anyone tell me whom I should approach?
> 
> 
> Lynn Packwood 
> 
> 
-- 
I made 'the' picture, but with over 10 camera's. Dave Felt has one.
He can be reached on 71555.1510@compuserve.com.

Godwin 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Godwin Zwanenburg                  | Internet: zwanenbu@nlzcl.decnet.philips.nl
Philips Electronics NV             | Phone : 31 40 732991 (b) 31 40 524622 (h)
Centre for Manufacturing Technology| Mail: N-Brabantlaan 42a 
Eindhoven                          |       5651 LZ  Eindhoven
The Netherlands                    |       The Netherlands
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:29:31 GMT

In article 1653@julian.uwo.ca, roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts) writes:
>
>This argument is simply nonsense. The complexity of a water crystal
>does not even come close to the complexity of the human body.
>To claim that it has evolved by mistakes, is extremely impropable.
>Of course there are some favorable mutations, but to claim that errors
>can occur, one after another that do not kill the animal, are favorable
>and lead to the creation of something as complex as, for example, the
>human brain is humorous. I am just as likely to believe that the next
>stone I throw will not return to earth, but fly to Mars.
>Maybe it was not this answer that you were refering to....


I hate to point out that mutations do not all happen to one single 
individual of a species, but are distributed among a population.  A favorable
mutation will be inherited.  If there are subsequent unfavorable mutations 
in the population (as most are) they will not be inherited, but the favorable 
ones will continue to propogate.

Evolution is not applicable to individuals, like statistics, it is appropriate
to populations.  Throwing a stone is not comparable in any fashion.  But then,
you should study quantum physics for a more complete picture of throwing stones.


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141