HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: simon@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Julia Simon)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Languages in LotR
Date: 22 Jan 1993 12:49:20 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft Computerlinguistik, U of Saarland, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de

mayorga@siva.upc.es (Nacho Mayorga) writes:
> Some time ago two persons sent messages involving some kind of studies on
> languages of LotR; Then I could not reply because of technical reasons, but
> I am quite interested in reading any possible information about this
> subject. Can anybody out there help?

There's a book by (I think) Jim Allan, called "Introduction to Elvish". But it
doesn't deal only with Elvish but also with other languages from Tolkien's
books and with things like name-giving and writing systems.

Jim Allan is "only" the editor of the book; it contains lots of papers and
essays about the above mentioned subjects, some of them by J.A., some by
others.

Although I do not intend to learn Elvish I enjoyed reading the book very much
(well, as a linguist... the chapter I enjoyed most was called "Elvish
loanwords in Indo-European").

			Julia 8-)

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
				Julia Simon

 Fachschaftsrat Computerlinguistik	DIaLOGIKa GmbH
 Fachbereich 8.7, Bau 17, Zi. 201
 Universit"at des Saarlandes		Albertstr., Pascalschacht
 D-W-6600 Saarbr"ucken, Germany		D-W-6602 Dudweiler, Germany

			email: simon@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de
			       sileas@coli.uni-sb.de
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen)
Subject: Re: Geography of M.E. Was:(Re: Blue Wizards?)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<17JAN199317275945@juliet.caltech.edu>
	<003166j.20.727376487@axe.acadiau.ca>
	<19JAN199303041410@juliet.caltech.edu>
	<jjonsson.332@alexandria.lib.utah.edu>
	<ROLAND.93Jan20142242@helicon.sics.se>
Date: 23 Jan 93 22:35:54

In article <ROLAND.93Jan20142242@helicon.sics.se> roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Path: nntp.hut.fi!funic!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!roland
   From: roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson)
   Sender: news@sics.se
   Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
   References: <93016.175309JXD132@psuvm.psu.edu> <1993Jan17.024032.23413@netcom.com>
	   <17JAN199317275945@juliet.caltech.edu>
	   <003166j.20.727376487@axe.acadiau.ca>
	   <19JAN199303041410@juliet.caltech.edu>
	   <jjonsson.332@alexandria.lib.utah.edu>
   Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 13:22:42 GMT


   There are some similarities between ME and the real world but the
   differences are huge.  I do not think that it looks like a map of
   earth at all.  Why do you not accept the word from Tolkien that any
   similarities in geography and history is not really intended?  Any
   imaginary world will have cold regions around the poles, hot regions
   at the equator, and consist of pieces of land divided by seas.  There
   would be rivers, mountains, lakes etc.  The people living in the hot
   regions would be darker.  If Tolkien would have known that this issue
   would be so interesting, then I assume that he would have constructed
   a ME that does look as unlike earth as possible.  Just to avoid it.
   Tolkien certainly bases his work on mythology, but not really on facts
   about the real world. Think of hobbits, dwarves, elves, balrogs,
   magicians, etc.  Think of a big mountain range and a big river going
   from the far north to the far south.  No such thing can be found in
   Europe.  Think of Mordor.  Where should that be?  In the middle of the
   Mediterranean?  I know that we humans try to find patterns and
   similarities everywhere.  Even when looking at the stars.  But it is
   mostly artificial patterns.

According to David Day's Illustrated Encyclopaedia Tolkien HAS admitted in some
interview that M-e is undoubtly the real world, its history is our pre-history.
So that's why Day has done the bold thing and asked an artist to make several
maps with extensions to the east and south greatly resembling Asia and Africa.

About Mordor's location in our world; how about I**q? :-)
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:57:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1k7ohgINN6e@gap.caltech.edu> damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
>In article <1k3qagINN7ab@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>>
>>Also, note that this is a truly incredible gift, one not given to any
>>of the heroes of the First Age.  (And I would think that, were it possible,
>	^^ Tuor??

Well, while Tuor probably made it to the Undying Lands, the Silmarillion
left the point unresolved for certain.  However, I see your point.

So why wasn't Beren offered the chance?  By the way all of the Valar
drooled over Luthien when she pleaded for Beren, you'd have thought they
would have done everything possible to keep her in the circles of the
world.  (Of course, maybe Illuvatar didn't allow it for the same reason.)
From: nntas@decwks.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Tim A Sauerwein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien LP
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:19:11 GMT
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md, USA


In article <C19pC0.49E@agora.rain.com> elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Path: nsisrv!ukma!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ssd.intel.com!ichips!hfglobe!agora!elana
   From: elana@agora.rain.com (Elana Beach)
   Organization: Open Communications Forum
   Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:14:22 GMT
   Lines: 10

   I have an LP entitled:  "J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings His 'The Lord Of The
   Rings', 'The Two Towers''Return Of The King'.  The label is Caedmon and the
   catalog number is TC 1478.  Looks like it's copyright 1975.

   Just curious.  Is this thing rare?

   E.

I don't know how rare it is but I have a copy along with Caedmon TC1477
"J.R.R. Tolkien Reads and Sings The Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring".
I guess they could be ordered.  Personaly I think the 1477 release is more
interesting but they're both provide insight into Tolkien's own interpreation
of his works.  There is also another release by Caedmon but can't remember it
right now.  When I find it I'll post it.

Tim S
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:24:08 GMT

rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:


>However, Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to 
>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure >**all that glitters is gold** and she's
buying a stariway to heaven).
>				--Chard 

If Led Zep was indeed quoting Tolkien, then Tolkien was probably
quoting Shakespeare ("All that glisters is not gold" - Merchant of
Venice, 1596) and/or Chaucer ("But al thyng which that shineth as the
gold/ Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told" - Canterbury Tales,
c.1387).  And *they* were simply repeating an old Latin proverb: "Non
teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum", which seems to be a
translation of something Aristotle said.

In other words: it's an ancient and well-known saying in Western
culture, and there's no reason think that JRRT was the specific source
for the line in the LZ song.

--
| Steve Watson a.k.a. watson@sce.carleton.ca === Carleton University, Ontario |
|  this->opinion = My.opinion;  assert (this->opinion != CarletonU.opinion);  |
"Somebody touched me / Making everything new / Burned through my life / Like a
 bolt from the blue / Somebody touched me / I know it was you" - Bruce Cockburn
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 26 Jan 1993 11:53:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan25.224634.25093@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> slogan@mta.ca writes:
>
> I can't back this up at the moment but as far as I was and have been 
>concerned they, being Frodo and Sam were allowed to sail to the Undying 
>lands as they had been bearers of the ring.

Yes, but this raises the question "allowed by whom?"

In the Silmarillion, death is Illuvatar's gift to men.  Even the Valar
cannot take it from them.  

Does this mean that Illuvatar personally intervened to allow Frodo, Sam,
and Bilbo to enter the Undying Lands?  Certainly it is beyond the
authority of the Valar to grant this.

Also, note that this is a truly incredible gift, one not given to any
of the heroes of the First Age.  (And I would think that, were it possible,
Beren at least would have been granted the gift, if only as a gentler
solution to Luthien's dilemna.)

Finally, a question.  If the ringbearer had been a man instead of a
hobbit, would he too have been granted admission to the Undying Lands?
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Saruman and Frodo (was Re: Power of races)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 09:06:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

: In article <1993Jan18.081925.22812@b11.b11.ingr.com>,
craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson) writes:
|> The parts before and after what was quoted are interesting too--
|> "There waqs a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and rspect 
|> and hatred. ' You have grown, Halfling,' he said 'Yes you have grown 
|> very much. You are wise, and cruel..."

I can see a tree that I have never seen before and say, "My how that
tree has grown."  The fact that it is large is proof enough of its growth.

In the same way, Saruman could say the same thing about Frodo.  It was
clear that Frodo had grown from seeing what he had become: it was not
necessary to have seen where he started.  Especially since Saruman was
fairly well acquainted with hobbits in general.  (In addition to his
studies of them, he had just spent a fair amount of time ruling
the Shire.)  The fact that Frodo was "greater" than the average hobbit
indicated that he had grown somewhere.


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tullfan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard Thompson)
Subject: Questions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 06:11:06 GMT

Hey, just found this group, got some questions for y'all.  First is there
an FTP site with tolkien gifs/info?  This would be most excellent.  second,
can anyone give me a listing of which books are tolkien, which are his
sons, and which are a mix?  i've always wondered this.  And the third
is how do simirilian and LOTR relate.  i've only read the hobbit and LOTR and
haven't ever really gotten into sim.  i had always assumed that sim. was
ancient history behind the middle earth of LOTR.  So, fill me in all you
tolkien fans...
oh yeah...how do other books relate to his middle earth also...like unfinished
tales and that farmer of something book?
i know i probably have demonstrated a great ignorance of tolkien works in this
post, but oh well...

thanks,

rich.


-- 
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain,
     and big words Bother me."
	-Winnie-the-Pooh
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: 25 Jan 1993 08:51:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <watson.727458148@capella.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:
>Note that "Earthsea" (with the possible exception of the 4th book)
>was, like the Hobbit, intended as children's literature (at least so I
>believe).

My impression is that "Earthsea" is more for what is called the
"young adult" market then as children's literature.  A fine distinction,
I know.

In any event, whether for children, young adults, or adults, "Earthsea"
is excellent.  And, in fact, there are many other fantasy gems that can
be found in the young adult section of the bookstore.  I'd also 
recommend "The Chronicles of Prydain", five books by Lloyd Alexander
starting with "The book of three" and proceeding through four others.
Highly recommended, and excellent fantasy with the emphasis being the
coming of age of the central character, Taran the assistant pig-keeper.

Also, as long as we're talking about fantasy novels, how about the
spate of books based on the Arthur legends?  My favorites are
"The Once and Future King" and "The Mists of Avalon".  I find that these
have a significant amount of depth, perhaps because they are based on
real legends.  (Although the things TH White does to history in
"The Once and Future King" are a bit of a stretch.  He replaces
William the Conqueror with Uther Pendragon and proceeds to make 
Arthur an early Norman.)


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Questions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 08:16:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.004624@IASTATE.EDU> cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>
>Some (most notably Jim Chokey) would say that they do not relate at
>all, or at least not much.  Tolkien wrote _The Hobbit_ and much of
>what would become _The Silmarillion_ before beginning the Lord of
>the Rings.  It is not clear that _The Hobbit_ was in any way connected
>to _The Silmarillion_ at the time of its (_The Hobbit_'s) writing.
>The Lord of the Rings was begun as a sequel to _The Hobbit_, and as
>such, it may be argued that it had no connection to _The Silmarillion_
>at its onset.

	I agree with everything written in the above paragraph except
the characterization of my position in the first sentence.  I have never
said that Tolkien's various Middle-earth works are not related at all, or
even that the relations between the works are relatively insignificant. What
I have said is very similar to what you said above--  that Tolkien did not
_initially_ conceive of The Hobbit and the first parts of LOTR as being 
connected to the various Silmarillion stories.  The three stories only
really became interconnected during the writing of LOTR.  I have never tried
to _deny_ that the stories are related; rather I have sought to _historicize_
their relationship by pointing out that they were not _initially_ related.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu (Joe Del Collo)
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Reply-To: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:31:51 GMT

yeah, the oath was to recover the silmaril at all cost, and if they didn't try
something like the "eternal darkness" would take them. Feanor and all his sons swore
it, supposed to be a terribel oath.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: aiden@NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski)
Subject: Re: Dorwinion (sp?)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 07:59:30 GMT

In article <27JAN93.16823129.0073@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> S2A0000 <S2A0@UNB.CA> writes:
> I seem to remember in The Hobbit that the wood elves were drinking wine
>from "the gardens of Dorwinion (sp?). I haven't seen any other mention
>of Dorwinion nor can I find it on any of the maps.
>
> Can anybody tell me where Dorwinion is located and what sort of people
>live there? (The name sounds elvish to me.)
>

I don't think much is known.  The Atlas of Middle Earth places Dorwinion
at the Western end of the Sea of Rhun in teh far east of Middle Earth.
One might suppose that wine came upriver from Dorwinion via the
River Running (Celduin) to Esgaroth (Lake Town).
From thense up the river into Mirkwood. (Perhaps in the barrels
the Bilbo and Co. rode downriver.?)

From the location in the East of Middle Earth, I tend to think it 
was a human habitation. It might have an elvish name though.  Many
things did even if they were not the homes of elves.  (ie Esgaroth/Lake Town)

"Dor" is the Quenya for "land" 
"win" appears to relate to Quenya: winya / vinya - evening
      with additional relations to Q: vinde - blue-grey
      according to the etymologies in "The Lost Road"  Lost Tales V

Dorwinion would then be the "land of evening"
This might relate to its position in the East much of which lands
had fallen under the shadow of Mordor.
Or perhaps to blue-grey mists off of the Sea of Rhun.
Who knows.

The Atlas of Middle Earth translates it rather simple-mindedly
and I think incorrectly as the Land of Wines.  :-(
Not a very imaginative appelation. And not supported by extant
elvish vocabulary.

Hope this helps.

Steve Otlowski-
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:57:02 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse):
>
>also, look at the substantially longer poem about the cat and the fiddle in
>the fellowship... i believe he even went so far as to say that this actually
>DID predate what we know today. 

*That's* the example I was trying to think of.  Exactly.

Thank you.  ("'The cow jumped over the moon'...  Really, Frodo!")


-- 
       David Tate        |"Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | That sends the screaming liner over it 
 Prof. of Story Problems | And spills the bleacher-dwellers from their seats."
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR |  	"Fenway Wall", Robert Frost          
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Fandom
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:29:42 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester
Keywords: Eddings, Tolkien, Flamewar, quality of series.

In article <1jm6tgINN4ql@saffron.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, phuag@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr C J Tilbury) writes:
|> 
|> Otherwise, followups to /dev/null. This isn't the place for a discussion of 
|> Eddings works. Try alt.fan.eddings.

On a positive note (since it looks like criticism of non-Tolkien writings
previously positively mentioned isn't allowed here :-) I have found the
following series to have greater depth and better characterization than 
most recent fantasy though most fall far short of Tolkien.

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tas Williams (incomplete)
Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (incomplete)
Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz (complete in parts)
Winter of the World series by Michael Rohan

Of these the closest thing to the work of love that Tolkien's works are
is the Deryni series.  Kurtz has even written a book that goes into
detail on how the "magic" of her stories works and exploring a few of
the ideas further.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Questions AFfter First Silmarillion Reading
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:46:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1993Jan26.190042.8438@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>The Third Age ended when the Ring was destroyed. The Fourth Age didn't
>actually begin until a couple of years later, when the Three Rings
>passed from Middle-Earth.

According to the Tale of Years in the appendices, the Third Age ends
when the Fourth Age begins, with the passing of the ring-bearers.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Stones in Tolkien
From: stoddard@milori.ccit.arizona.edu (MJ STODDARD)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 16:35 MST  
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Gems of many kinds seem to play an important role in Middle Earth:
the arkenstone, the silmarils, the green elfstones that were left at
the ford and that Aragorn wore, the red/blue/white stones in the
Three rings...and the lack of a stone in the One Ring.

These stones appear to be symbols of permanence -- sometimes bad,
sometimes good -- especially the white ones.  Has anyone examined
the place of rocks in JRRT?

MJ Stoddard   
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: d90-two@niger.nada.kth.se (Thomas Wolmer)
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:30:42 GMT

In article <1k0sthINNpj4@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>I have read and been convinced by the postings here that concluded that
>Hobbits are close relations to Men.
>
Ok

>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>Sam took a ship west to join them.
>
Well, Frodo and Bilbo could hardly have taken the last ship as at least two
more ships are known to us (Legolas' and Sam's). But that's off the point...

>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?
>
>My impression is that Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam become immortal in the Undying
>Lands.  Admittedly, this is not directly supported by the text, but it is
>my general impression.  (I don't know if Bilbo would recover from his
>senility, but I imagine it is possible.)  Wouldn't this withhold from them
>the gift of Illuvatar to men?  Or am I wrong, and might the hobbits die
>of old age in the Undying Lands?

I think you are wrong... Nothing says that they became immortal. The Undying
Lands didn't make anyone immortal, the name derives from the fact that only
immortals (Elves, Maiar and Valar) lived there. The messengers to the
Numenoreans tried to explain this, but failed... No-one could take the
Gift of Iluvatar away from men, or at least Valar said so.
The reason that they got the privilige to enter the Undying Lands was that
their souls had been contamined by the power of the Ring, which was an
unnatural experience (Aarrgh my lousy English... I hope you get the point
anyway) for mortals, and needed some "special treatment". 
>
>And what about Gimli?  Does he achieve immortality also when he passes
>west with Legolas (also noted in the appendices)?  (My impression is
>that while dwarves live a long time, they eventually die of old age.
>Kind of like Numenorians in that.)  And is Gimli the only dwarven 
>inhabitant of the west?
>
Yes, the Dwarves are mortals, but some might suffer from reincarnation (Durin).
Gimli's case doesn't support my theory, since he didn't have any special
reason to go west, except that he was the "strongest" dwarven Elf-friend that
had ever existed. Didn't ChT make such a comment somewhere?

-- 
 _.^._  |\_|\_|\ V2.0 /|_/|_/|"There's no tomorrow,           |
[_<X>_] Thomas Wolmer        | just sadness and sorrow        |
  !_!   d90-two@nada.kth.se  | Hold on to the Ancient Dreams" |
  IOI   Angantyr on IRC      |  - Candlemass "Ancient Dreams" |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien