HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martyp@engin.umich.edu (Martin Pochmara)
Subject: Re: All North Carolina team
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 17:40:55 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

>Michael would have been a megastar with or without Bird and Magic.
>the league as a whole would have suffered without them, but Mike
>wouldn't have.
>

Correct that Mike would have been a mega star, but in what league? The
NBA became such a "sport for the fan" because of Magic and Bird....
The NBA is big today because of Magic and Bird....because it is
big today and Jordan is the best player in the NBA today, then
Bird and Magic had a bearing on how big Jordan's name is.....
It has nothing to do with how good he is.

From talking to a friend of mine who grew up in Australia, he noted
that Jordan is so big over there. The kids are all wearing his
shirt, Bulls caps, and his shoes......would the kids be wearing
this stuff if there was no Magic and no Bird? I think not....


				Marty
From: dxj@cci632.cci.com (Dennis Joyce)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Pippen's Renegotiated Contract (from DT vs. Kukoc)
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:18:17 GMT
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY

In article <1992Aug15.191006.29403@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> cs4cb3@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Peter Granic) writes:
>
>In earlier threads called Kukoc vs. DT (or vice versa), I discussed the
>options the Bulls had in renegotiating Pippen's contract during the 
>Toni Kukoc negotiations.
>
>Many people claimed the Bulls were required to negotiate with Pippen
>first.  Here is a small clip from Saturday August 15 Toronto Star about
>Mark McGuire, who will become a total free agent at the end of the 
>current season with the Oakland A's.  
>
>Peter Granic

Pete,

I agree with you that if a player signs a multi year deal. They should have
to honor the contract. It really burns me up when a player turns around after
signing a five year deal worth 2 million+ per season and then wants to 
renegotiate after two years.

I believe that the players deserve to make as much money as they can. Since
the avg. career length is less than 5 years. BUT a deal is a deal. If they 
feel that they deserve to renogotiate after they have a good season THEN
I say do what Stanley Roberts did,  sign a one year deal. Roberts got
payed less than $600,000 last year (I know only $600,000) but knew that he 
would make an impact in the league. He signed a one year deal and became a 
free agent this season. As a resultm he inked a deal worth nearly four times
that and is now he very secure financially.

But then there is Ricky Henderson or Patrick Ewing. Who it seems is forever
renogotating thier contracts. 

But I disagree with the idea that signing a long contract causes a player to 
produce less. Some players perform better when they don't have to worry
about the money side of the game. The haggling over a contract can take a strain
on players then can effect the way they play. 

				
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: rda446x@nella5.cc.monash.edu.au (S.A. Mccoy)
Subject: Re: Debunking the standard myth was Re: Couple of thoughts..
Organization: Monash University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:03:28 GMT

Talking about "brothers" athletic ability I rember reading an article about how
african americans had slightly thinner hips than your average white.  Obviously
there are exceptions to this average, but the thinner hips supposedly enable a
person to run faster.  This supposedly occured due to addaptation to the 
enviroment that the africans were living in.  It enabled them to hunt longer and
be more effective at hunting, etc.
Just an idea.
From: davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Meeks == Lor
Keywords: HACKED!
Date: 23 Aug 92 02:02:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Aug23.020253.41223
Distribution: usa
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.041952.2286@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor) writes:
>Meeks' 23th lie: article #23 post-stop:
>
>In article <1992Aug20.143224.67372@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>>Lets revisit.. A "bad call" which was used as sarcasm 
>Let's revisit. The sarcasm is used only to claim that the 7 vs 3 was 
>non-conclusive. Where is the sarcasm on the 7 bad calls?

Now, since Ed is running out of things to argue about, he is attempting
to tell me what I said, and where the sarcasm was meant for.  Sorry Ed,
the sarcasm was used for the whole comment. 
>
>
>  "So in your context, since over the last few years, you can name as many
>   as 2 3pt incidences, that is proof enough for you that the league is in
>   the Celtics pocket and the refs give the Celtics all the calls". 
>
>You didn't refer the 2 3ptr as good calls, calls George Bush gives, calls 
>Joe Gibbs gives. You referred them as "calls the refs gives the Celtics".

Now, I stated that this is proof enough for you that the league is in the
Celtics pocket and the refs ...  This wasn't a statement of what I believed
but a question of what you believe this was proof for.  I didn't refer to
the incidences as "calls ...", but rather that you believe that this is
proof that "the leagues is in... and the refs give the..."
>
>>Nope.  Defense centers around:
>>1) Didn't say the play was bogus
>That's exactly what I said, which has nothing to do with the characterization.
>
But Ed, how can the call not be bogus, and yet still be a home job, since they
are the same thing to you??
>>2) Only claimed the type of things were nothing more than home jobs ....
>Nope, claimed that "the type of things as just home jobs..."
>which means all instances of the types are also home jobs. That's not
>what you meant? Too bad, then you screwed up in your type statement.

God what an idiot.  I claimed the "types of things are nothing more..." in
about a hundred statements, and "types of things are just ..." in 1 comment.
However, you screwed up in your interpretation by trying to equate the types
with the instances.  
>
-- 
David T. Meeks                    ||" We are jigsaw pieces, aligned on the 
VMark Software, Inc.              ||  perimeter edge, 
uvmark!davem@merk.com             ||  interlocked through a missing piece"
davem%uvmark@merk.com             ||" ...This world is totally Fugazi"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: Perry@mte.ncsu.edu (Bill Perry)
Subject: Re: S. Roberts: Trade Bait??
Organization: Mat. Sci. & Eng., NCSU
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:19:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.094119.6083@iscsvax.uni.edu> baker2668@iscsvax.uni.edu
writes:
>Now that the Magic's Stanley Roberts is officially "trade-bait",  I was
>wondering what offers the Magic have been hearing for him.  Or do the Magic
>plan on playing the twin towers?  Would this work in the NBA?
>
>Well, I think the Magic will trade Roberts is on the block and I love to
>speculate on these things, so here goes.  I believe that the Bulls should make
>a run at Roberts by offering Armstrong, Williams and a future draft choice.  I
>thing it makes sense for the Bulls but I am sure others would think it's too
>much (or too little?)
>
>How about this possibility?:   Armstrong and the rights for Kukoc in exchange
>for Roberts.  Of course this will depend on Kukoc signing a NBA contract but
>this deal might tempt Kukoc.  He would get the starting position he covets and
>he would get the chance to play along side the Shaq.  I only make this
>suggestion because I do not believe that the Bulls will be able to sign Kukoc
>in the near future.
>
>BBB
>
	Roberts to the Bulls?  Not gonna happen.  First of all, are they not in the
same division, or at least conference?  Second of all, Roberts is worth much
more than the Bulls can offer, unless they part with Grant.  I think Williams
is OK, but Armstrong is over-rated and who wants the last pick in the 1st
round?  And although I love Kukoc, I would never trade for a Europeans rights
who may sign next year.  The Magic are in the position to make a run for the
playoffs, and I'm sure they'll want quality for Roberts.

	But how about this one:	Roberts for Hersey Hawkins......  Of course, does Doug
Moe want a big center?

Bill Perry
From: hatch@gandalf.nosc.mil (Mark D. Hatch)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: daydreaming and flamefest welcome
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:28:39 GMT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <1992Aug12.163342.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu> tswilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Sly Fox) writes:
>Do you think Chicago Bulls can beat Crotia and Lithu... at thier homestands?

Without breaking a sweat.  Even though the Dream Team had to be the most 
talented team in the history of basketball, they did not have the time to 
create a good team concept, establish a good half-court offense, play great
team defense, etc.  Chicago, a great team, would blow out any country's
national team.

>Is it crazy to have two big man signed with Orlando Magics? (Oneal and Roberts)

I don't know about being crazy, but I think it would be in the Magic's best
interest to trade Roberts for a need, of which Orlando has many.

>With Gug gone, the Bullets will be the same stinky team.

They would probably be a stinky team with him, anyway (nothing against
Gugliotta, but he's not enough to lift Washington to the conference
elite).

>Do you beleive the Dream Team can post 82-0 record playing NBA this year?

No.  It would take them a couple of months to become really comfortable
playing as a team, and to develop a good team game plan.  During this time
they would definitely be vulnerable to a well coached team.  After they
got everything together, though, they would waltz their way to the 
championship.

>Bird will make a miracle comeback for 1992-1993 year.

I don't know.  I heard on the radio last night that they are considering
playing him in home games only.  Just because he is a great basketball
player doesn't mean he can overcome his physical problems.

>One white man will finally win slamdunk competition this AllStar event.

Who?  Only Rex Chapman would stand a chance.  And anyway, who cares?

>Magic will make his comeback but end breifly after become too exhausted.

He stands at least as good a chance at contributing next year as Bird does.

>Will Magic use same #32 or use different one because #32 is already retired?

As it is his #32 that is retired, it is a safe bet that he will wear the same
jersey.

>NBA will be out of business by the year of 2004 because of salary feud and fans
>giving up cuz we can not afford to spend 75 dollars for zzz99 seat in the top
>corner of staduim.

I highly doubt it.

>If Phoneix did not make to the Finals, Barkely will demand a trade.

I doubt this too.  As long as Phoenix plays well, and Barkley believes he
has a shot at the championship in the next couple of years, he will not
demand a trade.

>Threepeat is on the way!

God, I hope not.


							Mark Hatch
From: wgr@rti.rti.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: The All "Home-State" Team?
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:00:53 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

In article <23580@oasys.dt.navy.mil> swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) writes:
>Phil Ford was a great player, but I don't think he was really a great
>PG.  I remember him doing most of the shooting for the team.  Oh well,
>I guess great PGs are hard to notice unless they're great shooters too.

Phil was an excellent scorer, but he racked up a lot of assists as well.
I guess Kenny Smith broke his UNC career assist record, but I can't recall
for sure.  Phil is still the #1 scorer in UNC history.

>Didn't UCLA have an outstanding player from North Carolina during the
>Alcindor era?  Wasn't it Shackleford or Allen or Warren?

Henry Bibby, from Franklinton or the vicinity, played for UCLA.  He went
on to play in the NBA for the 76'ers and maybe a couple of other teams.
From: peggys@orca.wv.tek.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Shoe teams
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:38:20 GMT
Reply-To: peggys@orca.wv.tek.com
Organization: Network Displays Manufacturing, Tektronix,Inc

In article <Bt8nMr.936@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Jazzy J ) writes:
> From: jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J )
> Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
> Subject: Shoe teams
> Date: 19 Aug 92 16:11:14 GMT
> Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
> 
> 
> 	I was wondering -- just what shoe company could launch their own
> 	version of a "Dream Team" using the players that endorse their
> 	shoes?  We all know about Nike (could have Jordan, Pippen, 
> 	Robinson, Mullin, Stockton, Barkley, etc) -- but what about:
> 
> 	Converse:  Larry Johnson
> 	(alas, Magic ended his contract; Bird & Dr. J are retired)
> 
> 	Reebok:  Dee Brown, Dennis Rodman, Horace Grant, Reggie Lewis,
> 	and many others?
> 
> 	Puma:  Isiah Thomas (at least from what I last heard)
> 
> 	LA Gear:  Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone 
> 	(and of course, good old Kareem)
> 
> 	BK:  Derrick Coleman
> 
> 	Feel free to add to the list.  Any comments?  From 1st glance,
> 	it would appear that LA Gear would have the inside game hands down.
> 
> 	Jazzy J
> -- 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  "I am human and I need to be loved,            | Jazzy J           
       |
> |   just like everybody else does..." - The Smiths|
jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Avia - Clyde Drexler

					Peggy

           ===================================================
          | Peggy Shock  				      |
          | Tektronix, Inc., Network Displays Division	      |
          | PO Box 1000, MS 60-430, Wilsonville, OR 97070     |
          | (503) 685-2030 - email: peggys@orca.WV.TEK.COM    |
           ===================================================
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: acsdtd@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Larry, tell me it's really not true
Reply-To: acsdtd@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:00:41 GMT


It's been four days now since I've heard the news and still
I wander around like I've lost a best friend or close relative.
I haven't experienced this kind of emptiness since we killed 
that keg at the last picnic... ummm  never mind, that's another 
story. 

Anyway, what I'm trying to convey to the group here is the emotional
impact that Larry's retiring does to a diehard Celtic fan.  Everytim
somebody mentions Bird's retiring to me, his whole career flashes 
in front of my eyes.  From the first home game, when he was a rookie
(which I attended) to his last forgettable appearance in the Richfield.

You see, I being only 21, grew up with Larry Bird.  I was with him for 
every game.  So ardent a fan he made me nothing would stop me from
playing.  Practicing my jump shot became a religion, no matter what the
circumstances.  My father thought I was crazy in the winter months,
because I would get the shovel out the clear the basketball court
(and much to his chagrin, not the rest of the driveway).  I would play
on weekends when school was out until game time and then sit in wonder
and awe of the skill that never failed to entertain.  And what do you 
think I did during halftime?   Of course, I was out mimicking his movements
and passes from the first half.  

When the second half started, he never failed to outdo his first half
performance, whether it be something like a great pass or a fade away 
jumper from way out near the statehouse somewhere.  

Larry, I don't think there is a tribute out there thay can pay you
the respect you deserve.  I just hope you realize that I'm not the
only fan that you affected in this manner.  Your role model, the work
ethic, helped me succeed not only with a perfected jumper, but also
in school.  This post may have gotten sappy, but I just don't know 
how to express my feelings, this week has been too long, way to long.

Thanks Larry

Umass guy
From: nhmas@gauss.med.harvard.edu (Mark Shneyder 432-4219)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Bird is retiring
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:35:03 GMT
Organization: HMS

In article <93973@bu.edu> sheyn@csa.bu.edu (Igor Sheyn) writes:
>
>Well, the fanspoll question on Ch. 56 this Saturday showed that 40(!)%
>of callers thought he SHOULD retire and a significant numbers of other callers
>if not thought so, then knew it was destined  to happen. So I think the
>radio callers were representative of a small group who are not only convinced
>the team needs Bird, but sincerely believed he could keep on playing.

Igor,

I actually called up and voted for him to retire beleive or not! 

I thought all the stations(radio & TV) and print media did a tremendous
job covering the retirement day. Ch.4(NBC) even pre-empted some Nazi
Republican's speech and went with the newscast at 11pm. Good move.
Afterall,this was Larry's Day.

Me,my boss, and couple other people at work were thinking about gettting tix to the
Celtics-Suns exhibition game in Hartford on October 30 before Bird's
retirement. We still think we'll be getting tickets after yesterday's 
announcement.

But I still believe that after this season,there will be plenty of good
seats avaialable on the day of the game. This season is another 41-game
sellout since all the season-ticket holders including my boss had to pre-pay
their subscription in June along with a 24% hike in ticket prices.

After this season,you'll be able to get a good deal on season-tickets
and it would be actually a good invsetement when the new Garden open in '95 and a
new superstar will be playing for the Green.

-Mark
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: The All "Home-State" Team?
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:11:15 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900

In article <1992Aug13.121451.599@brtph560.bnr.ca> markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
>Just thought I would 'update' my NC team.
>
>PG: Michael Jordan (Wilmington)
			.
			.
			.
>This is a pretty strong team, though I'd be amazed if one from Illinois 
>(hell, Chicago for that matter) or NY wouldn't beat it...
			.
			.
			.
Rick Mount, Larry Bird, George McGinnis, Billy Keller,
and Kent Benson (was Benson a Hoosier?) would beat 'em
all--'cause John Wooden would coach them.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: sbulmahn@yoyodyne.ncsa.uiuc.edu (scooter)
Subject: Thoughts....Random, yet interesting
Reply-To: sbulmahn@yoyodyne.ncsa.uiuc.edu (scooter)
Organization: National Center for Supercomputing Applications
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:05:26 GMT

1.  Everyone is talking about how the Knicks have all these tough "bangers"
	and I've heard many suggestions that other teams should try to compete
	by "picking up bangers."  Wait...  As it occurs to me, the Knicks didnt 
	even pick up any bangers.  All they did was hire a weightlifting coach
	at the beginning of last year.  I saw stats a while ago that listed the
	% body fat change, and muscle weight gain for Oak, Ewing, X-Man.
	Just incredible stuff -- all gained 20+ pounds, and lost several % body
	fat (naturally).

	So why dont other teams do this??  Instead of people telling the Bulls
	to get some serious bangers, how about convince Scottie Williams, 
	King, and Cliff do what the Knicks did.  Or, for that matter, why dont
	a BUNCH of other teams do this???
	Hmmm.... This all just seems too obvious (must be something wrong...)

2.  Why dont some teams have contract incentives to keep chronic delinquents
	on the court, and out of the slammer?  Some "regulars" like Strickland,
	Peeler, and maybe to some extent Barkley (Milwaukee incident), might 
	decide to spend less time on funny business.  Doubt if many player's
	agent would like such a clause, though

3. 	I wish Utah would mix-it-up a little bit on offense.  Sure, they made
	it quite far in the playoff, but it was UGLY.  In fact, justice would
	really have been served if they lost to the Clippers.
	Every play was:  Stockton give to Malone down low, and have T. Corbin
	on the weak side, ready for the offensive board.  Yes, this IS a good
	play.  But for God's sake, you cant use this for 95% of the offense.

4.  Yes, Shaq is good.  He's a franchise player, will be rookie of the year,
	and might be a very strong force in the NBA.  But listen, he's not 
	worth no  $$$$40 million bucks/6 years or whatever.  Nobody is.  
	NBA salaries are now almost half as disgusting as Major League Baseball
	contracts.  Its just absolutely disgusting how certain teams (wont mention
	who) are just jacking up ticket prices thru the roof, and giving these
	jive-ass salaries.  And Shaq hasnt even done anything yet!!!!
	Jordan doesnt even get $3 million (but does get $10 mill endorsements)....
	And then there are the REAL players like Detlef who arent getting a
	fifth of what Shaq is getting.

	That is disgusting that the NBA is taking after these bullshit baseball
	salaries. 

Scott
From: lor@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (edward.lor)
Subject: Re: Meeks == Lor
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:20:02 GMT
Keywords: HACKED!

In article <1992Aug17.202609.22043@ll.mit.edu> nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith) writes:
>[sample text from both:]
>Ed Lor has been nit-picking on Meeks' inability to explain his position to
>Lor without making a Single Error, trying to catch him in a grammatical
>stumble.  in the process Ed has made and then backed off a few assertions
>while trying to induce Meeks to stumble.  

Let's see, how many assertions are we talking about here? 

    "Meeks considers the 3-ptr bogus". 

Maybe I have made it, maybe not. I am sure Meeks will grep the
quote for me.  But that was more than a month ago. Meeks didn't
admit the call as bogus? No problem.

But I found evidence that he considered the play as "bad call", "call
that the refs gives", and an instance of a type that is home job.

Yet Meeks' only capable defense so far is "he didn't consider the play
bogus".

I am sure you can list the few assertions I backed out.

>as a result, the original supposed
>net.truth ed was trying to make has lost much of its value.
Well, what was the net.truth? 

>so no net.truth.  and now Meeks has to carry around a millstone saying that
>he thinks the 3-ptr was not a homejob, forever onward.  
Yep, by saying that 

1) the 3-ptr was not bogus  -- an irrelevant point
2) the 3-ptr was can't be an instance of a type (calls for the home team that
   we argue for a month) I consider bogus because 

   a) he doesn't think it's bogus  -- try to support the notion that 
      Meeks == Lor.
   b) the 3-ptr doesn't belong to the type (calls for the home team that
      we argue for a month) -- distortion

>yunno...maybe that is the one net.truth out of this,  Meeks == Lor.
Yep, that's it.

>>>>The whole point was only the Celtics getting more 
>>>>home jobs than the other teams.
>  which teams are "the other teams", Ed?
Who cares? 

>  Minnesota?  Miami?  Sacramento?
>  all 26 others?  except LA & Chicago?  Portland & Detroit?  New York?
>  Philadelphia? Cleveland?  which ones?  over what time span?
Over the whole Bird/Magic era, the Celtics have got more favoritism than
all other teams with one possible exception. That's due to an admission
that there exist superstar favoritism. You can't use the Kings' one
Mitch Richmond for one season to match against the Big Three's 12 seasons.

>the poll hasnt shown anything significant.  there are only 4 returned forms,
>including Nate's.  
Oh, pity!

>and the timespan of the poll was never mentioned, so its a
>defectively worded poll so that the 4 results he has are no good anyway.
Fortunately you weren't asked to conduct any poll of significance. So far
you conducted two polls and the total response were 5(?).

-- 
                                          Edward Lor
                                          lor@cbnewsk.att.com