From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: they have eyes yet they do not see, was (I'm God) [200+ LINES]
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:43:46 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <fTRInQP@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
|In article <70931@hydra.gatech.EDU> 
|rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>In article <fTKMHnC@quack.sac.ca.us> 
|pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
|>|In article <10989@gunn.ed.ac.uk> 
|>|iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
|>|>No, it isn't, for two reasons: (1) those books belong first and
|>|>foremost to Judaism, and it denies that they have anything to do with
|>|>Jesus of Nazareth -- and Jews ought to know, it's _their_ scripture;
|>|>and (2) those books are so full of wild claims and odd contradictions
|>|>that they are best dismissed altogether.
|>|That's one of the strangest things about Christianity. The idea that the
|>|Jews are not capable of correctly interpreting their own Hebrew
|>|scriptures and that Christians are able to correctly interpret a Greek
|>|translation (Septuagint) of Hebrew scripture. In Judaism, there is only
|>Oh.  I thought the Jews (specifically, Jesus) opened the eyes of the
|>people to his fulfilment of the Olt Testament.
|
|Yeshua, if he even existed, did not pull the wool over many of the eyes

I thought most people believed he existed - some just don't attribute
the glory to him he deserves.

|of Hellenistic Jews. It remained for Paul to take Christianity and
|market it to the remains of the Roman Empire. Clearly, "convert or die"

How can you say Paul preached what the Romans like in light of:

   Acts 16:19   When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of
      making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into
      the marketplace to face the authorities.
   Acts 16:20   They brought them before the magistrates and said, "These men
         are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar
   Acts 16:21   BY ADVOCATION CUSTOMS UNLAWFUL FOR US ROMANS TO ACCEPT OR
      PRACTICE."
   Acts 16:22   The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the
      magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten.

|was a very effective technique of selling Paulist Christianity to the
|Europeans.

Paul was called to be the Lord's apostle to the Gentiles.  Jesus preached
the same message - if you do not repent, you will perish.

|>|monotheism, one God of Israel, He whose name is not to be pronounced, He
|>Jesus repeated this. The Lord our God is one. The question is who is the Lord.
|
|He provided the answer when He said, "I am that I am".

Correct.

|>|who responded, "I am that I am", no Christian Devil, no Christian Jesus,
|>I suppose the book of Job wasn't in the OT, huh?  Who came to God after
|>roaming to and fro on the earth?  I think it was Satan (i.e., the Devil).
|
|Satan is a Hebrew word meaning adversary, it is not the name of another

Understood.  How does this compare to the book of Revelation's description
of Satan.

   Rev 12:9   The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called
      the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to
      the earth, and his angels with him.

|God or some prince of darkness. You will not find the Christian Devil in
|the books of Judaism, what you find in Christian translations is
|mistakes in translation, lots of them. That's what happens when you

Oh. Which translations - you mean the whole book of Job??????

|forget to ask the Hebrews what their own books mean. Though the claim is
|that 72 Hebrews, six from each of the twelve tribes, translated the
|Hebrew scriptures into Greek and produced the Septuagint in Alexandria,
|Egypt, each one translating separately yet yielding the exact same words,
|it is obvious that the result was a poor translation. As to what
|went wrong, one can only speculate. Christianity was based on this poor
|translation. It remains for modern Christians to seek a better
|translation, that is if they seek the truth.

Where are the errors?  Be specific.

|>The whole OT points to the coming of a Savior, the Messiah, the Annointed
|>One.  In Malachai 3, we see the Lord Almighty telling us that he (the
|>Lord) will come.  Often we see THE angel of the Lord being referred to
|>as God.  (angel means messenger.)  In Zechariah chapter 1, we see this
|>angel of the Lord (who is at times referred to as God) and the Lord
|>Almighty in the same passage - a hint of the trinity.
|>Jesus even said he was the "I AM" - and that he was before Abraham.
|
|All Christian exegesis propaganda and you fell for it! Why don't you consult 
|with a Judaist for the meaning of the Hebrew scriptures? After all, whose
|scriptures are they anyway?

They are God's scriptures - given to both the Jews and the Christians.
The Jews are sadly still looking for what they desire - the Messiah.
Christians recognized the Messiah as having come in the flesh - he is
Jesus of Nazerath - Christ the Lord (Luke 2:10-11.)

|>|no Christian Hell and the day of rest is the seventh day, Saturday. The
|>Saturday is the Sabbath.  It is still observed by the Jews.  However,
|>Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the
|>Sabbath and that IT IS LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath, as it is any
|>day of the week.
|
|Jesus told? Do you have a reference of what Yeshua said in Aramaic? And

Give your reference - why Aramaic - could you please spell out your
concern, for I don't follow you.

|you still haven't explained why most Christians seem to think that
|Sunday is the day the Lord rested. Could that be a mistake? If such

We don't think it is the day the Lord rested.  It is the day we
celebrate as the resurrection of the Lord, Jesus the Christ.

|a simple mistake as a confusion over which day of the week the Lord
|rested exists, what else do you suppose might be mistaken? It's no big
|deal really, provided that if you seek the truth that you search for the
|truth in earnest. Truth is seldom found in propaganda.

Some may dispute it from lack of knowledge, but there is not real dispute.

|>|irony of Christians trying to tell the Jews the meaning of their own
|>|Hebrew scriptures is not lost. Part of the reason for this
|>Again, the Jews are the ones who gave us the NT.
|
|Oh really. Then why is it in Greek and Aramaic? Hebrew wasn't good
|enough anymore? Think Richard, think! Hebrew has been the language of

Oh. Then why did the Roman controlled Jews translate the OT into Greek,
if Hebrew was good enough - the same reason holds - they spoke Greek.

|Judaism from the very begining right up to the present, continuously
|without interruption. Hellenistic Jews did produce the NT, but don't get
|that confused with the Hebrew scriptures with which they have little

It is not confused.

|comparison. The center of Judaism was in Babylon at this time, not
|Hellenistic Judaea nor Alexandria, Egypt. The mistakes in the Septuagint
|make that rather obvious.

Cite your claims specifically.

|>|miss-communication on the part of the Christians is that the center of
|>|Judaism was in Babylon at the time and Babylon was outside of the known
|>|Christian world. Some Christians even try to claim that the Hebrews of
|>I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Why were all of the Jews in 
|>Jerusalem for the feast (Passover and Pentecost, etc.), if what you
|>say is true?
|
|I said that Babylon was outside of the known Christian world, not that
|Jerusalem was outside of the known Babylonian and Hebrew world. Big
|difference.

Oh.  I don't follow you concern.

|>|the OT died out or disappeared and the Jews of Babylon adopted the
|>|ancient scriptures and claimed it as their own. Thus, by this logic,
|>I've never heard this claim - the Jewish high priest was there in Jerusalem.
|
|The center of Judaism was in Babylon at the time, not Jerusalem.

Cites please - wasn't the temple in Jerusalem????????????????

|>|Christians are the rightful heirs of the Hebrew scriptures and Judaism
|>|is a more modern re-interpretation of Hebrew scriptures that are more
|>|modern than the Greek Septuagint. The fact that Judaism has been in practice
|>Jesus the Christ is the fulfillment of the Scriptures.
|
|Why is it that few followers of Judaism believe this? Could it be that
|they know their own Hebrew scriptures better than you do? Why do you

Paul was a high ranking Jew - many Jewish people and priest came to faith
in Jesus the Christ.

|suppose that they find the Christian argument to be unconvincing? Do you
|suppose that the mistakes are just too comical? Judaism is monotheistic,
|that's one of the things that separates it from other religions, why do
|you think they would find the European pagan notion of a Holy Trinity to
|be appealing?

Christianity is monotheistic - we have one God.

|>|continuously from the begining of the oral tradition right up to the
|>|present, against all odds, and in the same Hebrew language is something
|>|that the Christians prefer to ignore. Clearly, from a Christian
|>How is this (Hebrew language) ignored?????
|
|In incorrect translation into other languages and Christian attempts to
|make the errors of the Septuagint correct. In a total failure to consult
|the keepers of the faith of Judaism.

Again, help us out here and give some examples.

|>|perspective, the Jews must be misguided in their interpretation of their
|>|own Hebrew scriptures. It makes no sense to me, but some people buy this
|>|argument, then again, you remember what PT Barnum said about suckers
|>|being born every minute. If they'll go for the free gift grift, they'll
|>|go for anything.
|>And there is someone (Mr. Harvey?) trying to sell something to the
|>sucker, isn't there?  What are you sell?
|
|I sell nothing, but you are correct to be suspect. Seek the truth
|Richard!

I do seek the Truth.

|>|The topic of what Buddha did or didn't do is far to complicated for the
|>|average EVILgelical Christian. Richard Pitts has so far demonstrated
|>I am often amused at these kinds of intellecual superiority statements
|>made they "THESE ENGLIGHTENED" people.  
|
|I'm sure you are. Christianity also suffers from years of persecution of
|Christian scholars. What becomes of a religion that burns all its
|scholars and converts via "convert or die"? Is that the way of truth?
|
|>|that he has read the Bible, (probably KJV), a book of Christian History
|>Oh.  I guess the KJV is not worth reading.  I guess you've never read
|>any of the modern translations, for I generally (90+%) of the time
|>quote from the NIV.
|
|That's good, that's a big first step from KJV to NIV. But NIV suffers some
|from Christian exegesis, if you want just the words perhaps you should
|get a copy of JPS:Tanakh, ISBN:0-8276-0252-9. I'm not saying that
|Christian exegesis is all wrong and useless, but it is one big step removed
|from the actual words of scripture. And a little word of advice on your
|quest for the truth: Encylopedias are fine for fifth grade reports but
|they can only be a very light version of the truth. Discover the world
|of books. If all your local library has is encyclos, take a trip to the
|big city or the closest university library. The Bible stands on its own,
|using propaganda to support it only insults the writers. Propaganda is
|for selling what is false or what can be sold through no legitimate
|means.

I guess Atlanta area libraries are not good enough for you, huh?

|>|propaganda and an encyclopedia. The message of the Buddha is an
|>|intellectual one. Your average Christian is not interested in the truth,
|>|instead they are interested in the easy story, the quick grift,
|>|something simple that doesn't tax the mind. Most Christians aren't
|>I see that intellecutalism is going to save you, correct?  
|
|No, I didn't say that, but one must think if one is to find the truth.

One can think they are thinking, but yet be blind and find only
what they want.  It goes both ways.  I don't appeal to my wisdom,
but to the Lord.

|And next you launch into the classic Christian attack on scholars. Sad
|Richard, truly sad. Why do you resort to common street grifts? Is your

Sad, I don't follow you grand understanding of my attack on scholars.

|understanding of Christianity so poor that you must do this when you are
|confronted with the truth? Why do you fear the truth? Why do you

Be specific in when you levy critizism.

|distrust yourself? No one will lead you, you must find your own way.
|Allow yourself to be led by others and you will most likely be misled.
|Use your mind Richard, it was given to you for a reason. Learn from
|dogma but please don't become dogmatic. Don't insult the Creator.

Understood, but get you head out of your own arrogance and give
some practical response instead of this your vague attacks.

|<Devil may quote scripture deleted.>

Devil quotes sciputre badly.  You didn't like it did you.  Why
delete it.  Does it speak to directly to you????????

|>|interested in the truth, that would be far to complicated, instead they
|>You are right - they are far to complicated.  Wisdom is not required
|>to enter the Kingdom of God.  Faith is required - you can be wise, but
|>that doesn't get you in.  Else, why would an ability one is born with 
|>be the factor of one being able to merit salvation.
|
|One is not born with knowledge of truth, that is why. If you seek truth,
|then seek it honestly. If you seek deception, the strength of ignorance,
|don't mask it by claiming to seek truth. Ignorance is strength, but not
|the way of truth. Are you seeking truth, or ignorance, Richard?

I seek the Truth and it has been revealed to me, but not to me alone
and it is available to all who believe.

|>|prefer the easy assurance of selffulfilling propaganda, the fool's idea
|>|that the only book worth reading is KJV. The main attraction of
|>The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
|
|Don't be so sure of that.

Unless, you know there is no God, how can you cast doubt on this?
How can you know there is no God, unless you are everywhere and know
everything and so be able to pronounce your claim.

I am sure.

|>|Christianity is the marketing concept that all you have to do is believe
|>|in Jesus and ride his coattails into Heaven when you die. If you believe
|>That's right.  Jesus paid the price - you got a pretty good grasp of what
|>is required to follow Jesus and so be saved.
|
|You sound like an authentic person leading an inauthentic life. I
|thought you were seeking the truth. How have you been misled?

I do seek the Truth, how do you know your own personal ability 
and pride has not misled you?

|>Don't let it be said of you that you never understood, but just heard.
|>Open you heart up to Jesus the Christ - humble yourself and he will 
|>exalt you.
|
|If you seek truth, seek truth. Learn from dogma but please do not become
|dogmatic.

If one believes what we Christians believe, would you expect us to be any
less dogmatic?

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc