From: mow@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com (Mark Payne)
Subject: Re: The merits of Power amps!  was: Peavey, etc!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:16:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Response Centre, England
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Let me try this again....

Hello Mur...

>There, I've gotten through the whole post without being rude or obnoxious,
>even though Mark is infering that I am an ignorant prejudiced asshole.
>Prejudiced maybe (who isn't about something), asshole sometimes, but
>not ignorant by a long shot.

Sorry... My blood got boiling and I forgot to put the "Human Filter" on.

I am sure you are not "ignorant" or "obnoxious" .. I never used these words.
I am sure that you are prejudiced... but then we all are. The attack was not
on you personaly but on an attitude that I have seen that your post was in 
the rough direction of... 

Lets put the Peaveyphobia thing aside because that just gets my prejudiced
asshole into a spasm and will confuse the point I want to make. This is 
about technical PA spec requirements from bands and venues...

1. The first problem I have with the rider thing is that when you are working 
   at the "one off", none touring end of the PA market, you build a flexible 
   rig that will do most jobs very well .. Not brilliant.. because there's no 
   point. You never get the time to get the last 10% of sonic brilliance out
   of the band anyway. 
   You Build on a budget.
   You Build with compromises.
   You find the solution Amp/speaker/desk/compressor/processor/graphic etc
   that works for your rig and you trundle the thing out with you engineering 
   skills as a package. We ALWAYS get the bands/Venues comming back for more
   because the FOH and stage sound is very nice.. we work fast and do a good
   job.

   What graphic is in the FOH rack is actually irrelivant. In fact my FOH 
   graphic is a 12 band small "Technics" HIFI unit (horrors ! Where's the 
   Clark Technic ? what about the headroom ??). The fact is that it works
   and I've never needed anything else. 

   The point is that the Rider normally reflects the rig that the Venue/Sound
   Man dreams of. As sound Engineers we should be providing a SOLUTION, the 
   details of this are up to us. Let them judge on the SOUND not the racks.

2. What business are we in ?? Equipment Hire or Engineered PA. I'm not in 
   Equipment Hire. Maybe the Technical Rider is really a hire list. I turn
   up and am reponsible for the production of sound from unloading to loading.
   If a band/venue want me to drop off a load of stuff to their spec and let
   them get on with it... This aint for me.

3. I do most of my work for small bands and Venues (200-700 caps..). The last
   band I had a real hard time with was "The Power Of Dreams" who had done 
   a couple of dates with U2. There FOH technical rider was a list of the 
   gear the was in the U2 touring rig. The Promoter's PA budget was 250 
   and the venue was 300 strong. We did a good solid 3K with 1.5K foldback
   and the bands engineer turned his nose up at the subs because he had been
   using Courts and the desk cause the like to have a gate and compressor 
   on every channel ("like when we were on tour with U2").

   He did the mix and he was very good. We would not have got the vocals up
   in the mix like he did. At the end of the gig he admitted that it was one
   of the best sounds they had had ("we got across").
 
4. I never understand Mic Requirements. I can maybe just see the point on 
   vocals... But who cares what I put on snare ? I'm using Ramsa S2 clip 
   mikes at the moment cause the quality is nice and it saves on stands..
   Geoff (?) from Toto (God Rest Him :-() turned me onto these. When I can
   afford more I'll use them on Toms as well and use the Beyer 201's for 
   something else. The point is that most band engineers have never seen an 
   S2 ("oh haven't you got an SM57 ?")... well actually NO I DON'T WHY DON'T
   YOU TRY THIS FOR GOD'S SAKE YOU SILLY PRAT.. YOU MIGHT LIKE IT !! (I can
   say these things among Friends can't I ?? because I have to smile and 
   say nice persausive things to get them to use this brilliant piece of kit.

5. I always make a point of talking to the band/bands engineer befor the gig.
   I can then find out what the scoop is on the riders.. Often you can clear 
   things up. The problem is when you are quoting against a job to the promotor
   who will NOT understand this stuff. You are quoting against a technical 
   spec I will say.. "look this is crazy.. We don't have this stuff.. this 
   is waht we do and the price is xxx" but I know another firm will say 
   "cool no problems .. the price is xxx" and then the turn up with a rack
   full of Peavey Gear :-).

I hope this post is a little more intellegent than my first Knee Jerk reaction.
Sorry if I offended Mur....

Regards to Chris and Mur


--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mark Payne | Mail: mow@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com | 
___________|________________________________|_________________________________
Hewlett Packard, Amen Corner, Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1HN

I think you will find that HP are not, in any way involved in, influenced by
or responsible for opinions that I express here.... I think....

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