HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Petar Kozul)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: .GIF file - Map of "Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska"
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:01:03 GMT

Dobar Dan,
	I've managed to get a graphics file (croatia.gif) which is a picture
of Nezavisna Drzavna Hrvatska from W.W.II, so if anyone wants a copy they can
mail me and organise a file transfer.

P.S.	It's in black and white.

Bog i za dom.

Petar.

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        ____  ___    |~~~                      \-------/               | 
   |~~~~    ~~   \--->    /------------------v-------------\           \       
    \     /~~\-_          |          Petar Kozul           |            |   
     \   /      ~>        |--------------------------------|     _       \ 
      ~~~        |        |  Computer Science - R.M.I.T.   |   /~ ~\_    _> 
|\___/\___/|      \       |--------------------------------| /~      ~~~~  
|##  ##  ##|       \      | s924099@yallara.cs.rmit.oz.au  | ~\___ 
|  ##  ##  |        ~\__  \--------------------------------/   ___|    
|##  ##  ##|            ~-_                                    ~\___ 
|  ##  ##  |               ~-----____      KONJIC *                 ~~\______
 \#  ##  #/                          ~~---_             /~--__               \ 
   ~~\/~~                                  ~-_         /      ~---__       _-' 
                                              ~--_     |            ~--_-~
                                                  ~~--_ ~~|_
                                                       ~~--_|

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 19:52:51 GMT

In article <Oct.11.10.50.12.1992.21657@andromeda.rutgers.edu>, pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
> abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:
> 
> Ana Shane writes:
> >>But all of you
> >>)are in fact in the same pot: the only ones who could possibly have any
> >>)profit or gain are these leaders! They are playing with the lives of
> >>)their own peoples just like chess figures: with no regard for the
> >>)humanity and human lives.
> >>
> >>I just want to repeat Ana's lines, as I think there is much truth
> >>in them. There are many participators in these newsgroups, on all
> >>sides, who should take these words to their hearts.
> 
> >Though I mostly agree Ana and Erland, I'd like to add a small remark.
> >Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
> >not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
> >described a bit more.
> 
> Please clarify what you mean with "fulfilling somebody's will".

Ok, but don't be disappointed with my answers though.

> Do you think they are fulfilling the "Will of the People"?

For sure the "will of _some_ people". The whole problem is basiclly
here, namely how many people? When somebody says "democratical will"
is assumed the will of majority of people. Or at least the will of
those who elected the "leaders". But yes, it is yet another problem
here. Namely how does one cast his vote? If certain nation elects
somebody with a majority, is this democratic? Never mind, but my
answer on your question is that they are fulfilling will of some
people at least.

> Do you think they are fulfilling the will of some greater international
> conspiracy?

I don't believe in this too much, yet it is a problem how do you
define "international conspiracy". One can even claim that it helped
to change the ruling systems in Eastern Europe. But is this
conspiracy? Do new leaders fulfill their will? I don't think so in
direct sense.

> Do you think they are fulfilling the will of the ones who trade arms
> (and have enormous profits from this and other wars)?

This is the party whose will I believe is fulfilled the least or not
at all (though I agree that they have enormous profits!).

> This is a most interesting point!

Yes it is. And my point was and still is that the leaders are not born
from ether, but brought from the people and at least supported by them
(up to certain point) as well. Now, if people first believed in
leaders' ideas or did the leaders believe in them first -- this is
very, very much debatable. In any case, as leaders also the ideas
didn't come from nothing.

Best regards,

Andrej
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:304 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9102
From: dmatic@athena.mit.edu (Davor Matic)
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 20:05:10 GMT

In article <Oct.11.10.50.12.1992.21657@andromeda.rutgers.edu>, pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

|> >Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
|> >not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
|> >described a bit more.
|> 
|> Please clarify what you mean with "fulfilling somebody's will".
|> 
|> Do you think they are fulfilling the "Will of the People"?
|> Do you think they are fulfilling the will of some greater international
|> conspiracy?
|> 
|> Do you think they are fulfilling the will of the ones who trade arms
|> (and have enormous profits from this and other wars)?
|> 
|> This is a most interesting point!
|> 

Allow me to pick up on this tangent.  The way I interpret and agree with this
is that these leaders are fulfilling the will of the people, namely Serbian
people.  The political situation in the war zones, such as Serbian Republic
of BiH is so unstable, that no single leader could survive without strong
support form the people.  And there are so many sides to the conflict
that people could pick, that you can hardly say anyone was forced to kill
and slaughter their neighbours.  Most of the people chose to do it on their
own.  Not even the fear of being expelled from their comunities could justify 
many of the crimes commited.

Regards,
--- Davor
Xref: sparky soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:297 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9097
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Date: 11 Oct 92 14:50:13 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:

Ana Shane writes:
>>But all of you
>>)are in fact in the same pot: the only ones who could possibly have any
>>)profit or gain are these leaders! They are playing with the lives of
>>)their own peoples just like chess figures: with no regard for the
>>)humanity and human lives.
>>
>>I just want to repeat Ana's lines, as I think there is much truth
>>in them. There are many participators in these newsgroups, on all
>>sides, who should take these words to their hearts.

>Though I mostly agree Ana and Erland, I'd like to add a small remark.
>Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
>not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
>described a bit more.

Please clarify what you mean with "fulfilling somebody's will".

Do you think they are fulfilling the "Will of the People"?
Do you think they are fulfilling the will of some greater international
conspiracy?

Do you think they are fulfilling the will of the ones who trade arms
(and have enormous profits from this and other wars)?

This is a most interesting point!

>Regards,

>Andrej

Regards

Ana
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: USTASHA GENOCIDE
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:20:39 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Oct13.182948.5797@gw.wmich.edu> condic@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>If you love the truth, Good Morning!

Good morning, Mr. Kondic.

> If you do not, no human communication is possible!
>
>NO MORE LIES--Reposting #28
>

Mr. Kondic, does this mean that you have for 28 times repeated
something that is false? 

>"To claim that ca. 700,000 [Serbs] were killed in the

I agree, number is probably closer to 500.000 victims overall, i.e.
including Jews, Gypsies, some Croats, even some Muslims.

>concentration camp at Jasenovac is pure nonsense. One has
>to ask oneself: How could it have been possible, when
>within the borders of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina
>there were ca. 1,966,000 Serbs in 1941, and 1,610,000
		''''''''''    		     ''''''''''

You see, the first number was number of Orthodox people in, 
what are now, more or less, Croatia and B&H.  The second 
number is number of people that declared themselves as Serbs, 
some of them Muslims, some of them Catholics, most of 
them Orthodox.  You want some examples?   Sure, Alija Izetbegovic
counted himself as Serb in 1948.  Before war he was counted as
Muslim.  You got a picture, I hope?  The second example is, I guess
you have never heard about Mesa Selimovic.  On each census in
the post-WWII Yugoslavia he claimed to be a Serb, unlike on
the pre-war census. 	
Anyway, it is the most unfortunate for me, and for some members
of my family, that you are wrong.  Otherwise Serbs would be still
majority in Bosnia, Vukovar, Ilok, itd.   Actually, now we are
majority, again, thanks to people like pres.Tudjman, who 
provoked all this by denying that something happened, and by 
being caught in attempt to repeat it.  Three times in the same century, 
isn't it too much to expect from Serbs to go through? 

>in 1948--and this in spite of many migrations and many
>killings not attributable to the ustasha?"
>--Dr. Bogoljub Kocovic, World War II Victims in Yugoslavia,
>(in Serbian), Veritas Foundation Press, London, 1985, p. 54.
>
>-- 
>************************************************************
>ANYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON ANYTHING,INSTANTANEOUSLY! BUT,
>OPINIONS, AS SUCH, ARE GENERALLY WORTHLESS, UNLESS THEY ARE
>WELL-GROUNDED ON SOUND EVIDENCE AND VALID ARGUMENTS! J.CONDIC,
>E-MAIL:CONDIC@GW:WMICH.EDU;GEN.STUDIES,WMU,KALAMAZOO,MI 49008
>*************************************************************

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 14:00:03 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.220749.7360@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>)See, I think that you fell and are falling for the same (although differently
>)directed) propaganda as some people in Serbia have: You think that the
>)cause of all bad that was happening and happens is THEM, in this case
>)the Serbs. They think exactly the same only in their eyes it is YOU. You
>)believe YOUR leaders, and they believe their leaders. But all of you
>)are in fact in the same pot: the only ones who could possibly have any
>)profit or gain are these leaders! They are playing with the lives of
>)their own peoples just like chess figures: with no regard for the
>)humanity and human lives.
>
>I just want to repeat Ana's lines, as I think there is much truth
>in them. There are many participators in these newsgroups, on all
>sides, who should take these words to their hearts.

Though I mostly agree Ana and Erland, I'd like to add a small remark.
Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
described a bit more.

Regards,

Andrej
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: A Mystery,RE:Serbian and Croatian Forces Reportedly Strike Secret Deal
Date: 16 Oct 92 06:44:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: andromed.Oct.16.02.44.30.1992.12469
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

<U15231@uicvm.uic.edu> posted a message "Serbian and Croatian
Forces Reportedly Strike Secret Deal" on 15 Oct 92 at 16:38:03 GMT
containig the following:

>        The announcement of the cease-fire came as Bosnia-Hercegovina's
>Muslim Slav president, Alija Izetbegovic, held a second day of talks
>with local Croatian leaders in Western Hercegovina in an apparent bid to
>preserve what had been an alliance against the Serbs and prevent the
>division of the republic.
>        Sarajevo radio said that Izetbegovic, dressed in a military uniform,
>told a news conference Thursday in the main Western Hercegovina town of
>Mostar that he wanted to ``contribute to better cooperation between the
>Muslim and Croatian peoples in the struggle against the common enemy,
>but also to the building of a sovereign state of Bosnia-Hercegovina.''
>        Izetbegovic continued his tour Friday with meetings in the
>predominantly Croat town of Konjic, the radio said.

It is completely unclear to me how is it possible for Sarajevo
radio to say ON THURSDAY OCT 15 AT SOME TIME PRIOR 16:38:03 GMT
that 
>        Izetbegovic continued his tour Friday with meetings in the
>predominantly Croat town of Konjic, the radio said.
????
Let me just remind you that GMT is one hour behind Sarajevo time, and
that means that it was only 17:38:03 (5:38:03 pm) Thursday afternoon 
in Sarajevo at the time of this posting. How in the world did they know
what Izetbegovic DID on Friday???

Just a question?

  With hopes for peace

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Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
From: rcs76179@zach.fit.edu (Adnan Zejnilovic / ADVISOR M. Schneider)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: A call to sanity
Date: 8 Oct 92 05:31:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Florida Institute of Technology, Melbourne USA

In article <718475517@thames.cs.duke.edu> ag@duke.cs.duke.edu (Arman Glodjo) writes:
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
>Subject: A call to sanity
>Summary: 
>Followup-To: 
>Distribution: na
>Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.
>Keywords: 
>
>I have just recently been privy to reading all the sense and nonsense
>on both, the soc.culture.yugoslavia and soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna.
>Well, here are some comments:
>First, I do not know what percentage of you out there are really
>from the fromer Jugoslavija, so I will not assume anything.
>I was born, raised and educated in the heart of Sarajevo.  At age

stuff deleted

>But, now there is no going back.  So BiH will be free ... eventually.
>We will all live apart ... efforts of Dr. Broz Tito will drown ...
>Milosevic must be punished ... all in its own good time.

Excellent article with exception that TITO was not a doctor. He was a simple
locksmith of hillbilly parents. Such hillbillies under the umbrella of the
mighty Party have screwed up our future. Think about your last paragraph where
you talk about the Russian who does not understand our culture,... Well, my
dear friend, damn hillbillies who led our country came from villages to our
beautiful cities and brought their mentality and culture with them. So Tudjman
and Milosevic are both of the same bloodline as Tito was - seljacine and they 
are not going to do much good in creating civilized countries. Remember Tito's
slogans Randici-Seljaci etc., 

Such sloagans made many of us leave our dear country to creat more room for 
more radnici and more seljacine to spit on and ruin our cities, culture etc.
And of course the West does not understand. Do you blame them ? 

Regards,
(Maksuz Selam)

Adnan Zejnilovic


-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Adnan Zejnilovic            *  rcs76179@zach.fit.edu                     *
*  P. O. Box 061185            *  rcs76179@cs.fit.edu                       *
*  Palm Bay, FL 32906-1185     *  adnan@yacht.ee.fit.edu                    *
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Date: 15 Oct 92 04:07:01 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca writes:

>I'm not discussing the very experiment, but its application to the
>real World. Namely in the experiment is also appearing a mysterious
>doctor. Who is taking his role in real life?

The "mysterious" doctor is the experimenter, the researcher. He is
the "authority" in the experiment. In real life, it is the Authority,
any authority, anybody who is superordinated to you: your professor,
your boss, your officer, the president of the country or republic,
the mayor or governer, the clerk in the utilities office where you came
to pay your bill, your parents....

The pressures in real life are much stronger, and often go with either
defined punishment if you do not obey or with some other less defined
form of punishment which may be psychologically as real...

Combine an authoritarian form of government (like all of the former Yu
are now and were before) with the most ruthless and perfidious propaganda
(I have posted a newsclip from Philadelphia Inquirer recently) and you
will get a glimpse of how the "ordinary" people on all the sides came
to believe what they believe (that they HAVE to DEFEND themselves)! And
act accordingly.


>Regards,

>Andrej

  With hopes for peace

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Ana M. Shane                              voice: (215)-843-2909
334 Winona St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144      e-mail: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
From: dani@infopls.chi.il.us (N)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: SOL. IN BOSNA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 21:52:06 CDT
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

I would hope that everyone would want to fight each other with there wits 
and not guns.  The serbians that were perciuted or so they say, we cannot 
do any thig about that now.  We have to help each other.  Our people are 
dying and no one wants to help because it is politicaly incorrect.  I 
aslo do not appreciate being sent degrading letters through infoplus to 
my house.  You know who you are.  I am not going to stoop down to your 
level.  As for my majka i strina I suggest you keep them out because this 
is between peoples not each other.  Hoplefully everthing will be resolved 
very quickly.  If anyone has a rebullte to this letter please post and 
not send vulger messages to my house. 
BOG I HRVATI
UVJEK ZA DOM SPREMNI

--
dani@infopls.chi.il.us (N)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 09:10:46 CDT
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Chicago Cro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Exerpts: NEW YORK TIMES 1931

I would like to show the disbelievers exactly what was going on in
pre-WWII Yugo. The following are exerpts from a NEW YORK TIMES article
that ran May 6, 1931. I DO have the whole article, though I do not
feel like writing it all here. You can look it up on microfilm
in your library.

The article is entitled "Einstein Accuses Yugoslavian Rulers in Savant's Murder

"Berlin, May 5- Accusing the Yugoslav government of the murder of a Croatian,
Professor Milan Sufflay, who was struck down in the streets of Agram(Zagreb)
on Feb 18, Professor Albert Einstein and the novelist Heinrich Mann, brother of
Thomas Mann, have sent a joint letter to the international headquarters of
the League for the Rights of Man in Paris urging a protest against the
"horrible brutality which is being practiced upon the Croatian people."


"The league should muster all possible aid to protect this small, peaceful,
and highly civilized people."--   Albert Einstein


Look it up for the rest of it.

-Chicago Cro
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A rare occassion of sanity
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:33:56 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Andrej Brodnik (abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca) writes:
>Though I mostly agree Ana and Erland, I'd like to add a small remark.
>Namely that these leaders are fulfilling somebody's will. And this is
>not only their personal will. Hence this "leaders" need to be
>described a bit more.

You indeed have a point here. To wit: we can say that we are innocent,
at least not when we elected these leaders and encouraged them.

What I particularly like in what Ana wrote was the following:

>>You think that the cause of all bad that was happening and happens
>>is THEM, in this case the Serbs. They think exactly the same only 
>>in their eyes it is YOU.

What have me so depressed in the discussions with some people in
this forum, Serbs, Croats and Muslims, is that the own side is
never at fault, all bad is because of the other side. And if they
to some extent agree that for instance Tudjman is not the best leader
for Croatia, they blame that on Milosevic!
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Robert LJUBICIC)
Subject: >
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 01:12:37 GMT

.

.
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Monday, 12 Oct 1992 14:05:44 PST
From: H. Galic <GALIC@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Info needed on the Day of Protest against agression on BH

Last week I saw an info on this net on the upcoming day of protest
against the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina. I lost the copy. Can
somebody send me the original note and/or further info to the address
below. Thanks!      H. Galic,  Stanford U.

galic@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Mattel on women
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:40:05 GMT
Keywords: Targetting females once again.

In article <39540@unix.SRI.COM> maslak@unix.SRI.COM (Valerie Maslak) writes:

) I guess that makes me a real wierdo, but I LOVED geometry class.
)The idea that you could start out with a few basic assumptions
)and prove all sorts of amazing things with them was a real blast for
)me. I LOVED it. You know this, and because this is true, then you
)can prove that, and if you can prove that, then you can also prove
)this and this....
)
)Yep, I thought geometry was fun. 

Interesting.  Because of some strange scheduling constraints, I wound up
taking geometry 'independent study'.  Unfortunately, I didn't learn as much
that way (IMO) - I did, however, find out about 'analytic gemoetry' which
seemed to me to be a much easier (or at least more familiar) way of dealing
with the topic.  Rather than trying to find the 'insightful' way to draw the
'right construction line', it was a simple matter of bashing some equations
together that represented the independent variables for the location of
'arbitrary' points and their constraints to prove the desired result.

Some good did come from that class,though  - that's where I was first exposed
to the Mathematical Association of America (maa) tests, which were really
interesting though very tough, even though they only involved high school
level mathematics.