From: moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore)
Newsgroups: houston.general,tx.politics,rice.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-choice vs. Pro-abortion (was Re: Houston Defending Choice Coalition needs you)
Date: 21 Aug 1992 15:31:19 GMT
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Distribution: tx
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Aug21.041311.18486@cactus.org> rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.144033.2939@menudo.uh.edu> moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore) writes:
>>>>I have one more 'I will agree with a prolife sentiment when,'  when
>>>>there isn't one more child on the face of this planet that starves to
>>>>death, or sits in a orphanage wanting with all its heart to have loving
>>>>parents, when there isn't one more unwanted child born into a family.
>>>
>>>Being unhappy or poor isn't punishable by death, the last time I checked.
>>
>>What a great life to commit a child to.  You are really sick.  Do you
>>enjoy watching people suffer in misery?  Do you like hanging around
>>ghettos and the wards watching people beg and debase themselves?  Do you
>>get off to it?
>
>I lived outside this country for a long time, have visited many desperately 
>poor countries, and seen more wretched poverty than you can possibly compre-
>hend.  Whatever problems even the desperately poor have, they are alive, 

seen it... how incredibly upper middle class white of you.  Ever lived
it?

>they adapt, and they even have the ultimate potential to change their state.  

oh... they do?  Have you talked to any of the crack heads down on Main
street recently?  They don't think they can change their state.  The
only choice they see is getting arrested and put into prison and then
they at least know they have a place to sleep and food to eat.  And this
is 'up in the world' to a lot of them.

>Have you considered that your perceptions of "crushing poverty" may be a 
>byproduct of your middle-class *fear* of the same?  I.e., by someone partaking 
>in the top 1% of the world's wealth, deciding whom, in the remaining 99%, 
>meets your criteria of who should or should not live.  
>
>Have YOU lived in poverty?  Do YOU know anyone who lives like that?  Or are 

yes.
yes.

>you basing your arguments on Sally Struthers' commercials, which most 
>certainly *don't* show the children *playing* in the shit-pools, or other-
>wise adapting to their poverty?

no.

>I thought not: just another modern student-activist who shows up the pro-

you thought wrong... so, now what does that make you... other than
stupid.

look in the mirror man.   You have 'seen' this poverty.  You went over
and held their hands.  How special of you.  Ever done it in this state?
Ever gone into the wards at night and 'seen' the way they live?  I think
it is you that hasn't done enough living and has seen alot of what he
wants to see. 

>choice rally, does her "thang," jumps back in her BMW, and goes off to party.

not... try again.

There were times when I didn't have anything.  When we worried where
we were going to sleep the next week and prayed they would give us just
a little more time on the rent. I have lived the very life I don't want to
damn these children too.

So, now go back and sit in your white middle class office and shut up.

>>Have you ever talked to these people?  Have you ever asked them if they
>>are glad that they are alive?  Have you ever sat and talked to someone
>>that is suicidal because all their lives they were abused and unwanted?
>
>Yeah, so what?  The difference is that they eventually decide to blow their
>own brains out.  I don't make the decision for them.

I am glad that you are such a great and gracious person that you give
them a choice after years of misery to 'blow their own brains out'...
how nice of you.

>Nah, you're quite right, Lorra.  The poor are *such* downers.  Gawd, I 
>can hardly bear to meet the eyes of the beggars on street corners, any
>more, don't you know?  Let's round 'em all up, march 'em into concentration
>camps, and put the poor wretches out of their misery, eh?  No way your
>white, middle-class children should grow up seeing such a thing, eh?  Out
>of sight, out of mind, even if it's six feet under.

this is not what I want to do.  I would much rather not subject them to
the poverty in the first place.  I do meet their eyes.  I have been
there with them.  I know what it feels like not to know where my next
meal was coming from and I WASN'T born into it.  I had a small chance of
getting out of that.  Most people don't.  They have no education.  They
have no way of getting one.  You are the one forcing them to live that
way.  You are the one subjecting them to that lifestyle, not me.  I am
doing my damndest to do something about it.

>>Do you really sit in your little glass house and think 'they are really
>>just glad to be alive'.... 
>
>Yes.  When it's a choice of desperate poverty, or being marched into the gas 
>chambers by your kind, definitely yes.

oh... my kind? What kind would that be?

I believe in personal freedom.  You are the ones that advocate
government domination.  Not I.  You are the one that is doing everything
you can to keep the poor poor and not allow them even the slightest
chance to not live that way.  You are the one that has such a limited
view of your own reality as seen through your white middle class glass
house that you have no idea that you are propagating the poverty and
desperation.  You get to sit in your middle class house and say 'they
are glad to be alive'... before you start calling people names, maybe
you should look in the mirror.

>>I think we have gotten into the basic difference.  I am not christian
>>and the constitution of this country gives me that freedom.  
>
>No, you're a college-educated sociopath, a spoiled little brat who's been
>educated beyond her intelligence, who has no capacity for human empathy. 
>A typical specimen of your kind.

oh... you know me?  Have we met? I don't think so.  You have no idea who
or what I am. 

Get a grip man.

>>I don't believe that having an abortion damns a soul to eternal
>>nothingness, I believe that it allows that soul to move onto another
>>vessel that, perhaps, will dwell under better circumstances.
>
>And, typical of children in your age group, you have this compulsion to

and how old am, since you know so much about me and are so self
righteous about it.  Man, you don't know me.  You don't know my back
ground and so far, you have been 100% wrong.  Try again.

>symbol.  Fine, go and rant and rave.  But note that I never introduced 
>"religion" in my argument.  I simply find the concept of killing people, or
>*defending* the practice of killing people, on the basis of economic exped-
>iency, repugnant.  What's next?  How about killing the elderly, for the

people... define 'people' and then we can continue this arguement.  I
don't consider a 'fetus' a person. 

>Grow up.  Join the Army or the Peace Corps, see the world, grow a personality.
>Maybe we'll take you seriously, then.  

oh... does this means you traveled the world surrounded by your little army
geek buds...  I have an idea.  Why don't you go and live as a homeless
person for awhile.  Make the decision to beg for food or starve. Live
with the crack heads.  Maybe you should worry about what is happening in
this country for awhile.  And I have seen the world... I have lived in
Europe on my own... not surrounded by army geeks or peace
corp types guaranteeing my safety.  So, why don't you stop making
assumptions.  

>>So, it really comes down to this, if you believe that you are damning a
>>soul to eternal nothingness, then don't have an abortion.  That is your
>>choice and you can practice your beliefs all you want.  My beliefs,
>>which are supposedly protected in this country
>
>Supposedly?  Is anyone out to get you, Lorra?  Are we feeling a bit 
>*paranoid*, all comfy cozy in front of our CRT?

Well, no, last time I checked I wasn't paranoid at all.  Pro-lifers are
attempting to take away the power to choose based on their religious
upbringing.  I am defending my right to choose based on my religious
beliefs.  If, based on your religious beliefs, you believe that
abortions are wrong, then don't have one.  That is your right to choose.

>Robert Dorsett

Robert... you really should try decaf.

Lorra
Newsgroups: houston.general