From: eda673fsys@vx24.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:24:14 GMT

{In article <BxKoJq.Mqp@inews.Intel.COM>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
> 1. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God, born of the virgin Mary, wife
> of Joseph.
> 	The Lord of the Hebrews is remote and brooding. No one ever sees Him
> 	and when Moses asks by what shall we call You, He responds, "I am that
> 	I am." This is one of the things that makes Judaism different from
> 	the other religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt. Paul's claim that the
> 	Lord of the Hebrews somehow plants his seed in Mary and she conceives
> 	of Jesus, the son of God is very reminiscent of the creation of
> 	demi-gods in pagan religions. Presumably, Jesus being of God and Mary
> 	is part human, part God, hence demi-God. The pagan aspect of this
> 	myth is one of the main reasons it is rejected by Judaism and Islam.
> 	The books of Judaism do not predict a son of God, such a myth is
> 	completely out of form. However, this myth of Jesus the son of God
> 	probably made Christianity an easier sell amongst pagans of the Roman
> 	Empire much as the trinity and other pagan concepts did also. One
> 	cannot accuse Paul of not being a clever marketer.
>
I believe that you are on part error here in understanding the doctrines in
the Holy Bible.  First it was not just Paul's claims that Jesus was concieved
as a child through Mary, but disciples of Jesus acknowledge that fact before
Paul did (read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).

Another point that you are wrong is that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
This in fact was not fully understood by the selfish and jealous leaders
at that time.  Reading Isaiah 7:14, the prophet prophecied and foretold the
coming of Jesus the Messiah.  In that scripture, Jesus is called Immanuel,
meaning 'God with us'.  If this does not show the coming of the Son of God,
then I'm afraid you lost me there.

One more point of note on this issue, when you read Matthew 26:57-67.  This
is Matthew's account of Jesus brought before the Sanhedrin (a religious 
council, I think).  The high priest asked Jesus the confess as to whether
He (Jesus) claims to be the Son of God.  Jesus replied that He is.  Reading
in the proper context, you would have understood that the actions of the 
high priest to Jesus and his words indicated that he knew what Son of God
really means.
 
> 2. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time.
> 	Now, in most cultures of the world, it is an insult for a son to
> 	claim he is his father, particularly if the father is still alive.
> 	Nonetheless, this is Paul's claim. Perhaps it is an attempt to hide
> 	the obvious polytheism that God having a son introduces. In any
> 	case, the logic of God having a son by way of the woman Mary and yet
> 	this son is God is not obvious. If Jesus is God in human form, then
> 	Jesus is God in human form, not God directly and not the son of God.
> 

If you had understood about the trinity, then this claim is not so difficult
to grasp.  If you read John 10:27-33, you will see that Jesus Himself claims
to be God and the Son of God.  The trinity doctrine is quite simple if you
are willing to upon up yourself to see and comprehend what our finite mind 
understands.  God is one being or person with three seperate and distinct
personalities, namely God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
This purality is indicated in the Old Testament as well.  In Genesis 1:26, 
God said "let us .....".  To further prove that Jesus is God, look at
John 1:1.  This to me was quite clear on Jesus and His Lordship.  "In the 
beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God."

Thus, christianity does not teach polytheism, but has been clearly
misunderstood by people who read the Bible with a very view of thought.  I
sometimes try to explain the trinity as an analogy of an egg.  The shell is
part of an egg and yet is also referred to as egg, the yo{k is another part
of the egg and also referred to as egg, and lasly the white is part of the 
egg and is referred to as the egg.  Thus indiviually each part of the egg has
its name, but they take on the name egg indiviually and well as collectively.

> 3. Paul claims that Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time and
> that Jesus suffers and dies on the cross and reincarnates or comes back to
> life.
> 	Now we are surrounded by paradoxes. Jesus seems to act like a
> 	demi-god in that he has some qualities of a god and some of a human
> 	which is to be expected if he is the product of God and the woman
> 	Mary. But, this contradicts Paul's claim that Jesus is God. Which
> 	in turn contradicts Paul's claim that Jesus suffers on the cross and
> 	dies. Jesus as God dies? How can God die? God was never born, He
> 	just is. But Jesus was born and is God, according to Paul, and since
> 	Jesus (God) was born then he also must die. But, then the death was
> 	of no meaning since, Jesus being a son of God has the power of
> 	reincarnation, and so Jesus comes back to life and then goes into
> 	hiding somewhere. Again, despite being full of paradox, the tale is
> 	reminscent of pagan religion, but certainly there is absolutely
> 	nothing in the Hebrew scriptures of this nature, it is completely
> 	out of form. The followers of Judaism are expecting a prophet to
> 	restore Israel. Paul's version of the history of Jesus does not
> 	fit Judaism at all.