From: scylax!tiglath@uunet.UU.NET
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:57 GMT
Organization: ScylaxCorp


apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:

## OK,  Someone tell me.  I scream at the perp "ON THE FLOOR" 
## He says "fxxx you" ,  I yell "DO IT NOW!"  ......
## ... he doesn't obey.  Stalemate.  Do I shoot him or not?

#No, you don't shoot him because failure to obey verbal commands is not
#justification for use of deadly force.  

## Lacking a better "technique", I say, if nobody is looking I waste
## him after the second try.  No crippling shot, just my side of the
## story to tell.  In a public place I am not sure what I would do.
## 
## 	[MODERATOR: .........But could we appeal to the officers here
## 	 on the net to comment?  Surely training must address exactly
## 	 this sort of scenario, where a bad guy is clearly covered but
## 	 neither secured nor cooperative.]

#I'm not an officer yet (looks like next year that will change) but I can tell
#you want I have observed and have learned.  If the suspect isn't following your
#verbal commands, you just wait him out until you can get some help.  Think
#about it...what are your other options? Shoot him? He's not a immediate threat.
#Are you going to try and wrestle him to the ground?  Of course not.  You've got
#the gun, you are calling the shots and, generally, time will be on your side.

#If help isn't on the way and you have no way of contacting help.  Then you
#should still wait him out. Essentially, "the ball is in his court".  Keeping
#trying the verbal commands.


Waiting him out is not safe.  He may be waiting for his mate or mates.
Or you may crack up under continuous stress.  And the longer the
perp sees that you are not tough enough.  The more he can think he
can rush you, and succeed!.  Why should I take a chance.  If he is 
alone,  ooops! I was wrong.  If he isn't, ooops! I am dead.  Can I be 
expecte to take additonal risk, imagined or not, for his sake.  More 
scenarios...

A. The perp has hurt someone in my family, I am holding him at gunpoint.
again he doesn't obey but indicates he wants to go, call it quits,
and gently, unmenacingly, he moves to leave.  Do I let him go?

B. Some one is picking the lock. I heard the noise and I see a black 
clad figure slowly entering the now open balcony door.  I am behind the 
door armed,  do I shoot first?   The way I see, if he is a burglar
and I make a noise 99% chance he'll flee,  if he is a deranged sadist
he has found his target, for which he might be well prepared.
Am I expected to take this chance?

C. The good guy is sick, old and weak.  He holds the perp at
gunpoint in his small bedroom, the perp has a knife in his waist. he is
young, muscular, large and ferocious looking.  He laughs at the 
commands, feeling his superiority in spite of the gun trained on him.
The old guy is having a nightmare, shaking, his nerves frying.  He
knows that in spite of the gun in his hand, he is no expert and if
he blinks or makes the slightest mistake he'll be history.  He feels
that if the tension continues he will not be able to control it and
he may even faint.  Does he shoot before his nerve runs out?

I know many of you will say BLAM. BLAM BLAM!.  That is what the instinct
tells us.  I personally feel that shooting is the safe way to go.  But 
in all these cases there is not (yet) lethal force being offered, as 
the rule goes.  Can these be exceptions to the rule?  Is there 
a way not to shoot without takuing additional risk.
I assume the good guy doesn't know how to control an unwilling body
forcibly like police do.  Experts speak.