HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: me@vikings.austin.ibm.com (Michael E)
Subject: Re: Schools
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:02:58 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: for Anarchy meets Thursday.

In article <1993Jan25.044738.19699@cactus.org> janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner) writes:
>
>Is anybody else getting the impression that John Haugh is arguing with
>himself, here?
>Jeff Janner           | janner@cactus.org
Well I hate to use the word arguing since the word "argue" means "to debate", "to
persuade by reason" ... and so much of what he says passes for fiction. 

I'll settle for diarrhea of the mouth, tho'.

==============================
Vouchers: just say no.
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Subject: Re: Vouchers; erroneously labeled: State Income Tax
Organization: Dell Computer Co
Distribution: tx
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:43:24 GMT

jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>In article <C1Bq9A.1CFx@austin.ibm.com> mbrown@testsys.austin.ibm.com (Mark Brown) writes:
>>A remark overheard while discussing the "public schools vs. Vouchers"
>>problem in a restaurant:
>>
>>"Yeah, that's the solution to a problem, bail out and run away!"
>>
>>which kinda sums up that argument, to me.

>Yup.  We've been trying for years to get teachers to stop playing
>socialist experiments with America's children, but they've not
>listened.  Now it's time we took our ball and went someplace else.

Hey!  John, guess what?  I found something we can agree on.  Public schools
are going to perdition in a pushcart, and quickly.  This new buzzword, 
"Outcome-Based Education" is one that really scares me.  It sounds good,
doesn't it?  Catchy name.  Funny how the worst programs always have the
snazziest names.  

>-- 
>John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
>Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

>The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, 
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H. L. Mencken
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner)
Subject: Re: private schools, vouchers, etc.
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Distribution: tx
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:41:42 GMT

In article <1842@airgun.wg.waii.com>, miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
> In article <1993Jan23.050143.18558@cactus.org> janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner) writes:
> >BBTW:  Both of my in-laws work for a border-area school district & I can
> >state for a *fact* that the number one problem (NUMERO UNO) is a lack of
> >discipline & a lack of an effective method to enforce discipline.  (It
> >also ight help if more of the teachers/administrator took an active 
> >interest in the *kids* rather than just punching a time-clock and
> >considering themselves as under-paid babysitters!)
> 
> ...and the parents took some responsibility for their kids' discipline and
> education rather than viewing the school system as a big daycare facility.
> 
> THIS is the major problem with schools today. Everything else is merely a 
> sign that something is wrong. Anything the gummit does is simply treatment
> of the symptoms. The cure is to be found at the base level of education,
> the parents.
> --
> Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.
> 

My point exactly Griff.  At least there's someone out there paying attention
who can think for himself (rather than just regurgitating what they have
been told by the almighty pol. pundits of the major parties, etc.)

BTW:  Most kids start doing better in school as soon as they realize that
*somebody* is interested in them, in their welfare, and not just trying
to keep them in a room for 6 hours a day.

Jeff Janner             |  janner@cactus.org
No .sig yet...using the wife's machine and she's been busy lately....

Newsgroups: tx.general
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:52:57 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

In article <VDANHZ6@taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
|> Do you understand the concept of a *supplemental* scholarship? I'm sure you
|> do, so I'll assume you get the point now.

Yes I do, and no I don't.  The private sector is already giving supplemental 
scholarships to bright poor children.  Thousand points of light and all that.
What makes you think the government could do it better?

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"Why should I be tarred with the epithet 'loony', merely because I have a pet
 halibut?"
Newsgroups: tx.general,austin.general,dfw.general
From: aba@hp835.mitek.com (Binion Amerson)
Subject: 40th STC Annual Conference--Session Summary
Summary: Loews Anatole Hotel, Dallas, Texas, June 6-10, 1993
Keywords: STC, technical writing, editing, and illustrating
Organization: OpenConnect Systems, Dallas, TX
Distribution: tx
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:14:54 GMT

   A T T E N T I O N    P R O F E S S I O N A L    C O M M U N I C A T O R S

     40TH STC ANNUAL CONFERENCE, POST-CONFERENCE WORKSHOPS, AND EXPOSITION
                     Loews Anatole Hotel, Dallas, Texas, USA
                                 June 6-10, 1993

                               SUMMARY OF SESSIONS

The Program Committee of the 40th Society for Technical Communication (STC)
Annual Conference, Post-Conference Workshops, and Exposition has scheduled 
193 Technical Sessions, 9 Post-Conference Workshops, 7 Professional Interest 
Committee (PIC) meetings, and numerous other related conference activities.

Technical Sessions (June 6-9):
  Writing and Editing            36 Sessions
  Education and Training         36 Sessions
  Research and Technology        36 Sessions
  Management                     33 Sessions
  Visual Communication           21 Sessions
  STC Chapter Development        16 Sessions

Post-Conference Workshops (June 10):
  Product Usability: Survival Techniques         Jared Spool
  Teaching Technical Communication               Alice Philbin
  Designing and Delivering Effective Training    Celia Clark
  Indexing Technical Documents                   Larry Bonura
  Creating On-Line Documentation                 Dorothy Poole
  Script Design for Information Video            S. M. (Marty) Shelton
  The Real Cost of Technical Publications        Saul Carliner (1/2 day)
  Contextual Inquiry in Information Design       Minette Beabes (1/2 day) 

The 40th STC Annual Conference Advance Program:
  * Details all Conference Activities
  * Details all Hospitality Events
  * Describes all Technical Sessions
  * Describes the Post-Conference Workshops
  * Provides Registration Material
  * Provides Exposition Information
  * Contains much, much more.

For a copy of the Advance Program, contact the Society for Technical 
Communication, 901 North Stuart Street, Suite 904, Arlington, Virginia 
22203-1854; telephone 703/522-4114; fax 703/522-2075.  Or, send E-Mail to 
aba@oc.com and leave your name, address, and telephone number.

NOTE: STC members automatically receive the Advance Program and Registration 
Information about the 40th STC Annual Conference.  The Advance Program will be 
mailed in February 1993.

Binion Amerson, aba@oc.com
General Manager, 40th STC Annual Conference

-- 
 Binion Amerson, Senior Technical Writer, OpenConnect Systems, 2711 LBJ Frwy,  
 Suite 800, Dallas, TX 75234; 214/888-0447; 214/484-6100 (fax); aba@oc.com
 General Manager: 40th STC Annual Conference, June 6-10, 1993, Dallas, TX
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:39:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.144306.4496@rpp386> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>In article <C12B5L.1MAr@austin.ibm.com> mbrown@testsys.austin.ibm.com (Mark Brown) writes:
>>...and here's another problem the "voucher system" doesn't address:
>>Private schools can refuse to accept those they don't want to handle,
>>i.e., those with mental or educational disabilities (not *physical*
>>handicaps, those are covered under law, as is race, etc).
>
>Sorry, this is also wrong.  Private schools accept 98% of their applicants.

Sorry, but I have to question this number.  It may be true for a
certain subgroup of private schools, but if it were true overall,
every child in America would be going to Choate.  I also question the
acceptance (and retention) of those with various learning disabilities
in many of the private schools in the country.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 21 Jan 93 03:16:16 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <1993Jan18.155057.10708@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>                                             There is also still the
> problem of getting those schools to come in and start.

	True...  It's hard enough to get quality educators to go into the
inner city as it is...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
From: mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:39:18 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <C1A4uq.CF6@austin.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.153612.3813@digi.lonestar.org>, mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison) writes:
>|> Sorry if that's what it sounds like.  I want parents to have the choice
>|> to send their kids to a school where the kids will really learn
>|> something instead of just being warehoused until they turn 18.
>
>OK.  Now how will school vouchers accomplish this?  Be specific.

Currently, a child is assigned by the government to a particular
school.  If that school does not meet the educational needs of
the child, there is very little recourse unless the parents can
afford to pay private school tuition in addition to property
taxes (public school tuition, sort of).

Vouchers will give the parents a better choice of existing public and
private schools, and will encourage private schools to open in areas
where it is not currently feasible.

Additionally, if the public schools start losing students to private
schools (because the parents perceive the quality to be higher), they
will start pursuing more realistic paths to reform.

>Or if they have a religion class at all.

Good point.

>John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
-- 
Mark Harrison, mharriso@dsccc.com
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:52:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.150559.27228@digi.lonestar.org> mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison) writes:
>Any agenda I do have has a lot more with being able to give my daughter
>a better education than I received at the hands of the bungling idiots
>running the school I went to than with promoting a church that I have
>never been associated with.

John doesn't understand this because he thinks that one Christian church
is plug-compatible for another.  What he doesn't realize is that they
aren't and the thought of my money going to support the Catholic church
is extremely revolting.  But my son will probably be educated by Catholic
nuns, much to the dismay of his great-grandmother.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
From: mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:53:13 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1993Jan23.051611.18678@cactus.org> janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner) writes:
>Well, that should just about pay the salary for the superintendent or
>principle.  What about the board of directors, capital improvement fund,
>janitors, and last and leastly (at least this is way things are now) the
>teachers?
>

You don't really need to have all that overhead until your company gets
to a certain size.

Actually, the example above was based on a real school, which I
attended for part of 2nd grade (1968).  The school was called
"Mrs. Dickey's School", and was run by, naturally, Mrs. Dickey.
There were three classrooms.  One each for kindergarden and 1st
grade, and a combined classroom for 2nd and 3rd grade (Which Mrs.
Dickey taught).  Another room (in her house, which adjoined the
schoolrooms) was used for Spanish lessons twice a week.  Total
staff: 1 owner, 2 full time teachers, and one part time spanish
teacher.  Spanish was a necessary subject since this was in
Laredo.

As another interesting data point, I lived in Japan for a couple
of years immediately following.  We had exchange days where we
would visit the Japanese schools and vice versa.  I was amazed
that the Japanese kids had such primitive schools and that they
performed most of the custodial duties themselves.  I was also
very impressed that they were studying things several years
more advanced than we were.

>Jeff Janner       janner@cactus.org
-- 
Mark Harrison, mharriso@dsccc.com
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:02:12 GMT

In article <C1A4np.2G0F@austin.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.145244.4688@rpp386>, jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>|> John doesn't understand this because he thinks that one Christian church
>|> is plug-compatible for another.
>
>They basically are.  They fight to the death over minor details, but they 
>basically believe all the same nonsense.  The only reason I mention the 
>Roman Catholics by name in this discussion is because they're the ones who
>have 54% of the private school students.

Minor details?

Sorry, but the differences between the various Christian sects is rather
huge.  Scholars of several of the larger demoninations all sit around
swearing the members of the other groups are destined to hell.  I spent
3 1/2 hours arguing, long distance, with my brother the Independent Baptist
about why Mormons and other "Christian Cult" members aren't going to die
and go to hell just because a bunch of "Independent Baptists" disagree
with Mormon doctrine.  My grandmother, who is Methodist, gave me a dressing
down because she is afraid my son, who will someday (if he'd just make up
his mind to be born ...) be named after the Bishop of Ireland, will fall
into some Catholic girls hands.  These are not "minor" disagreements.

>Do you often do things you find revolting?  Is this one of those "suffering
>is good for the soul" things?

No?  And the answer to the second question is "yes."  Suffering is also
often the best way to obtain ones goal.  As they say in the Marine Corps,
"No pain, no gain."
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: Vouchers; erroneously labeled: State Income Tax
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:54:53 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1993Jan24.192050.17089@rpp386> jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>Proof by repeated assertion doesn't work in this group.

Neither does posting scads of arithmetic on made up numbers and then
when asked for sources stating, "I don't have to give sources."  Well,
maybe you think it works for YOU . . . 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Distribution: tx
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:44:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.104713.17014@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>	Better, but it still allows the rich to move "public" funds to
>private institutions.  And as pointed out in a previous post, the Catholic
>church (who is already tax exempt), would like the windfall dollars.

The church shouldn't be tax exempt.

>	If education for the poor (which seems to be the rhetoric)

Where? The rhetoric I see is better education for *everyone*.
-- 
Peter da Silva, 77272-0711 USA                  `-_-'
Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?               'U`
Serveuse, ce plat bouge encore!
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:49:38 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

In article <1993Jan21.153612.3813@digi.lonestar.org>, mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison) writes:
|> Sorry if that's what it sounds like.  I want parents to have the choice
|> to send their kids to a school where the kids will really learn
|> something instead of just being warehoused until they turn 18.

OK.  Now how will school vouchers accomplish this?  Be specific.

|> You mean the one that starts out "Congress shall make no law respecting
|> an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
|> therof"?  The only problem I see with that some legislator may try to
|> pass a law that differentiates between schools based on the content of
|> their religion class.

Or if they have a religion class at all.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"Why should I be tarred with the epithet 'loony', merely because I have a pet
 halibut?"
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:45:25 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

In article <1993Jan21.145244.4688@rpp386>, jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:
|> John doesn't understand this because he thinks that one Christian church
|> is plug-compatible for another.

They basically are.  They fight to the death over minor details, but they 
basically believe all the same nonsense.  The only reason I mention the 
Roman Catholics by name in this discussion is because they're the ones who
have 54% of the private school students.

|> What he doesn't realize is that they
|> aren't and the thought of my money going to support the Catholic church
|> is extremely revolting.  But my son will probably be educated by Catholic
|> nuns, much to the dismay of his great-grandmother.

Do you often do things you find revolting?  Is this one of those "suffering
is good for the soul" things?

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"Why should I be tarred with the epithet 'loony', merely because I have a pet
 halibut?"
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:43:06 GMT

In article <C12B5L.1MAr@austin.ibm.com> mbrown@testsys.austin.ibm.com (Mark Brown) writes:
>...and here's another problem the "voucher system" doesn't address:
>Private schools can refuse to accept those they don't want to handle,
>i.e., those with mental or educational disabilities (not *physical*
>handicaps, those are covered under law, as is race, etc).

Sorry, this is also wrong.  Private schools accept 98% of their applicants.

Parents who attended some private school or which support some church
and happen to have disabled children probably do a good job of insuring
that this continues to happen.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
Newsgroups: tx.general