From: adri0001@student.tc.umn.edu (Wouldn't you like to know)
Subject: Re: In response
Summary: I don't agree
Keywords: student dicipline teaching method
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:36:58 GMT

In <40644.2B5FABFE@puddle.fidonet.org> Carol.Hooper@f105.n381.z1.fidonet.org
(Carol Hooper) writes:
 
>appreciate the time you took to enter your philosophy.  Everyone
>takes a different approach to life and that's great. However, in
>proclaiming your open-mindedness, it seems, in fact, that you are
>quite closed-minded to the situations and needs of your fellow
>educators.  If what you described works for you, I think that's super.
>And, if Sheila is meeting success with her disciplinary guide, that,
>too, is super.
 
I can't say it's a matter of what works and what doesn't.  I'm not proposing
an opinion on what Sheila is doing.  I'm being critical of the entire 
educational community not just Sheila's educational philosophy.  I don't think
that the rules and regulations and teaching methods being employed in today's
classrooms are working.  They're turning out robots that can follow rules
blindly.  I'm asking, or rather, proposing a fundamental change in teaching
because at this point, I think we really need to take a closer look at what's
going on.  Students are being disheartened by schools and that leads to the
student quitting.  The students are NEVER included in discussions about what
they are going to be taught.  Students don't have any input into the rules,
yet they are expected to abide by them.  I am not talking about what works for
me and what works for Sheila -- I'm talking about what IS NOT working for the
students...we're not the one's that need to be satisfied...the students are
the ones that are LEARNING!
 
> I believe I'm somewhere in the middle.  I have great
>times with my students and develop a meaningful student-teacher
>relationship with them throughout the year.  I am not heartless as I'm
>sure Sheila is not. As for innovation, I believe you'll find that you
>don't own the rights on that one.........by virtue of being on this
>system, I can  say that these people here are innovative.  I am in no
>way attacking your beliefs, only explaining how the tone of the letter
>came off to me.
 
First of all, I'm not claiming the rights to innovation.  I am, however,
claiming that the idea I am proposing here is not taking well with you.  I
don't think you're reading my post right.  I can quote it for you if you'd
like because no where in it do I say you or anyone else on this group is
more or less innovative that I am.  I am simply declaring my innovation, but
it's not exclusive to the rest of the teachers here.  These are not beliefs..
these are facts...are you going to argue that students are in fact NOT 
learning what they need to in lower levels of education?  Why is that college
education is so much different from lower level education?  It should not be
that much different.  Like I said, these are not bowls we are filling...
these are student minds with ideas and their ideas need to be heard and more
than anything, need to be incorporated into the educational philosophy. 
 
>Please also remember that many of us are enforcing school  rules.
>For instance, my school has a policy against tardies.  They  ARE
>disruptive and, though occasional tardies result from legitimate
>happenings, many do not (ie: witness the groups  in the hall between
>classes.)  This is not to say that I will follow blindly the dictates
>of the system....but there is more than how this affects my class.
>What about the tardy student who is disturbing all the other classes
>in the hall on his lazy walk to your class.  Have you thought beyond
>your own doors on your policy?
 
I am proposing that the doors BETWEEN classes be removed...not solidified.
You missed my point entirely.  I'm not saying that we should try to work
within the rules...I'm saying we should try and CHANGE the rules to better
fit the education our students need.  There's a huge difference between
trying to remain within the context of the rules and radically changing them.
 
In regards to tardiness...there are better ways to communicate to students the
idea that they "should" be on time to class.  I don't believe in Skinnerism.
Sure it works, but that's because it's convienent.  These are not un-
intelligible empty bowls...we're dealing with kids, who have creativity, 
probably MORE than the average adult.  They know what they want, and they
know what education is all about.  The only thing is that no one is listening
to THEM.  We continually get stuck in the upper eschelons of the adult world
where laws govern over us...but at least we can influence those laws...the
students can't! 
 
>One last remark, the idea  that only a new teacher could be "fresh"
>and "innovative" is a stereotype of the worst kind.  I would suggest
>refraining from that type of comment.
 
Oh please...this isn't what I was saying.  Please don't take me out of context.
Let me quote what I said:
 
=I also probably don't have the "experience" many of the teachers here have,
=but maybe that fresh mind is what makes it all worth it to me....
 
Now, where exactly do you see that I'm saying I have more innovation and that
only a new teacher can be "fresh"...I'm saying that being young for me is
nice because I feel young and I feel close to the students.  I don't think I
ever mention the word old or any of its associated concepts.  Please
clarify on what you're drawing on here.  There's a huge difference between
the _tone_ of what I'm saying, and what I'm actually saying...the former is
much more subjective.
 
>Finally, one last thought....teachers are role models. No more said.
 
Yeah...and your point?
 
>--
>uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!381!105!Carol.Hooper
>Internet: Carol.Hooper@f105.n381.z1.fidonet.or
 
Amrit

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