HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante)
Subject: Statement Condemning Musical Forms (was: is music amoral)
Summary: Statement of conservative group, condemning some musical styles 
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:58:34 GMT

Since we have recently talked (ad nauseum, to some) about various views on
music that christians have had, I thought I should post this. It comes out
of my filing cabinet, which I'm cleaning out. This is a statement taken
from a national gathering of a nation-wide denomination/group. Since we're
 not into denomination-bashing around here, I'll remove any identifying
information. Just look at the reasoning, instead.

PLEASE NOTE: THESE ARE NOT MY OPINIONS

  ---------------------- Begin National Group Statement ------------- 

  Wheras it is apparent from the study of music history and music theory
  that music is a language that conveys thoughts and emotions without
  words, and  

  Whereas the promoters of the music of this pop rock culture know exactly
  what they are communicating to the youth of our day through the music 
  they write and perform, and
  
  Whereas the trend of thoe day in Christian music is a belief that any kind
  of music is suitable for fusion with words, prose or verse, concerning God
  and Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Bible,

  Be it resolved by the delegates to the XXXXXXXXXX meeting in XXXXX,
  XXXXX 1987, that music is in fact not neutral in that it has the power to 
  communicate thoughts and actions of morality or immorality,

  Be it further resolved that we believe it is wrong to attempt to 
  communicate the things of God and His Word through a style of music that
  in its structure is promoting the very opposite of the truth of God, and

  Be it finally resolved that we strongly advise that careful scrutiny be
  given to the music of our church fellowships and schools to be sure that
  it follows the time-honored formula of great music -- beautiful melody,
  glorious harmony, and flowing rhythm

  ---------------------------- End national group statement ------------

  As i've said before, these are NOT my opinions. 
  One further comment: this particular group is very proud of its defense
  of the the Bible and Biblical innerancy. Yet I've noticed that no where
  in the statement are any scriptural references given.
From: cpl3q@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Charles Philip Lu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Petra Concert in the D.C. Area
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:47:36 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Virginia

Hey all you Petra Fans!

Petra will be performing in Northern Virginia at the end of October.

              *  Petra: Unseen Power World Tour
 
              *  Patriot Center
                 George Mason University
                 Fairfax, Virginia

              *  Sunday, October 25, 1992 @ 5:00pm

              *  Tickets are $16.00/person for reserved seating 
                 (general admission - not available)
 
              *  Tickets are available at LOCAL christian bookstores as
                 well as ANY ticketron location.

Anyone who is not familiar with the area and would like directions 
can E-mail me and I will happily provide directions to the Patriot
Center.

Note: I am in no way affliated with Petra :( or George Mason University
      or Ambassador Christian Ministries (the folks who are sponsoring
      Petra).  I'm just a big Petra fan, who loves the Lord and the 
      musical gifts that the Lord has blessed the members of Petra with.

Have a Wonderful Day in Christ!

In Him,

Charlie Lu
E-mail : cpl3q@Virginia.EDU
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
          "Be joyful always, pray continually, give thanks
           in all circumstances, for this is God's will for
           you in Christ Jesus."  1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: yorrick@leland.Stanford.EDU (Gregory Lincicome)
Subject: re:  The Quiz
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:59:31 GMT

>Question 1: You have a choice of up to 10 albums that you can have
>with you when you get to the island. 

No compiliations here, I assume?  Oh, forget the rules...there weren't any
anyway.

		Artist or Group			Album		
1.  		First Call			Somethin' Takes Over
2.              Steve Taylor			The Best We Could Find        
3.              Kim Hill 			Brave Heart 
4.              Susan Ashton			Wakened by the Wind
5.              Michael W. Smith		The Live Set
6.              U2				War
7.              Jon Gibson			The Hits
8.              Michael Card			Scandalon
9.              Steve Camp			Doing My Best, vol. 2
10.             Charlie Peacock			Love Life

Try to get a little of everything...it's going to be 5 years before the next 
trip to the store.


>Question 2: After about five years...

		Artist

1.  Susan Ashton                        6.  Kim Hill
2.  Michael W. Smith                    7.  Michael Card
3.  Amy Grant                           8.  Billy Crockett
4.  Steven Curtis Chapman               9.  Twila Paris
5.  Out of the Grey                    10.  Petra

>Question 3: A box washes up on shore with 5 albums, each of which has the 
>best music of the career of one artist or group... 

1.  King's X
2.  First Call  
3.  Acapella 
4.  Charlie Peacock
5.  Margaret Becker       


Question 4: After a few more years, you get the chance to hear...

1.  Steve Taylor, dressed in the suit that's on the _On the Fritz_ cover, 
	playing most of his solo stuff
2.  Charlie Peacock, with opening acts of everyone he's ever produced or 
	written for--Margaret Becker, Out of the Grey, Jimmy A, Vince Ebo,
	et al--doing every song  he's ever written.  That should keep me in
	music for a weekend or so.  s'pose you could do this with Wayne 
	Kirkpatrick, too; Susan Ashton, Kim Hill, MWS, etc...

Thanks Scott!

-greg
From: sdeering@athena.mit.edu (Scott E Deering)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: R.M.C. Desert Island Quiz #2
Keywords: deserted island, tapes/cd's, batteries, etc...
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:57:40 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.christian
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Welcome to the second annual rec.music.christian Desert Island Quiz!
O.K., here's the deal. Say that you are stranded alone on a deserted island
somewhere for some undetermined length of time, with nothing much
to do but pray, read, and listen to music on your trusty stereo system
(LP, CD, cassette or 8 track). You have an unlimited supply of
batteries and free issues of CCM magazine float in with the surf
every once in a while. Please answer the following questions;

*************************************************************************

Question 1: You have a choice of up to 10 albums that you can have
with you when you get to the island. What are your choices for music
that you "just gotta have" with you?  This music can be any genre and
any artist in the last, say 100 years. Your choices don't have to be
in order of preference and need to include artist (s) and album title.

		Artist or Group			Album		
1.                           
2.                           
3.                           
4.                           
5.                           
6.                           
7.                           
8.                           
9.                           
10.                          


Question 2: After about five years, you find out (via a letter in a bottle)
that you can get a hold of new albums from 10 artists or groups of your choice;
which artists would you want to catch up on?

		Artist

1.                                      6.
2.                                      7.
3.                                      8.
4.                                      9.
5.                                      10.

Question 3: A box washes up on shore with 5 albums, each of which has the 
best music of the career of one artist or group. If you had a choice, which 
artist or group would you choose?

1.         
2.         
3.         
4.         
5.         


Question 4: After a few more years, you get the chance to hear two
groups in concert as their boat passes close by the island ( yes,
its a really busy island :-) ); who would you want to hear and what songs 
would you want them to play?


1.
2.

Please post all replies to this quiz on the net and have fun
filling it out! :-)

Scott Deering                           
sdeering@athena.mit.edu						<><
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: caw@gtech.com (Christopher A. White)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: GTECH Corporation, West Greenwich, RI
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:07:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.150255.9515@news.cs.brandeis.edu> aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>The key is, as another poster has said, is listening "closely enough."  If
>you listen closely enough, you can hear just about anything you want.  The
>mind loves to form patterns in chaos, like the sound of a song being played 
>backwards.  That's why people see patterns in clouds, inkblots, etc.

That argument was instrumental in aquitting Judas Priest (and rightly so,
IMHO). The judge found that the subliminal messages were nothing but tape
noise which different "experts" formed into different patterns.

Topher
-- 
 Christopher A. White                    | Here's a test to see if you've
 caw@gtech.com                           | completed your mission in life. 
 GTech Corporation, West Greenwich, RI   | Are you alive? You haven't.
 The opinions expressed are mine alone   |        - Bach
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu. (Claude W. Anderson)
Subject: Re: Seventy Seven's
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:58:36 GMT

Distribution: world

Greg Unrau writes
>  Out of complete curiousity, I would like to know if "All Fall Down"
> is off the new album "Pray uh.. Naked". If so has there been wide
> distribution as of yet of the album? 
> 

No, "All Fall Down"  is the name of their 1984 Album, one of 
my all-time favorites.  I am also courious about the words spoken at the end  
of "Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba".  It doesn't sound like back-masking to me, but I can't  
make it out.

 > Greg. 


Claude

--
Claude Anderson
(812)877-8331
anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu    -  NeXT mail welcome
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jeffries@iastate.edu (Anthony G Jeffries)
Subject: Re: Warnke files
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 04:03:33 GMT

In <1992Aug15.225447.8622@auc.trw.com> dmaxwell@auc.trw.com (Doug Maxwell) writes:

>Where are the files containing the Cornerstone artice and Mike Warnke's
>reply located?

The articles are available via FTP from wuarchive.wustl.edu.  They are 
archived as the file "warnke.tar.Z" in the "pub" directory.
-- 
Anthony Glen Jeffries N0NRO               |------------------------|
N0NRO@N0AN.IA.USA.NA  (packet--ham radio) |-Iowa State University--|
jeffries@iastate.edu                      |-------Ames, Iowa-------|
tabl4@isuvax.iastate.edu                  |------------------------| 
From: jburrill@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Jim Burrill)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:33:10 GMT
Subject: Re: List of careers helped by Amy Grant
Organization: Hewlett Packard - Boise, ID
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian

/ hpdmd48:rec.music.christian / Steven Timm <st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu> /  1:16 pm  Aug  8, 1992 /

9)  Pam Mark Hall    (whatever happened to her)

Didn't John Fischer discover Pam Mark Hall, long before Amy was heard of? We
had a concert in Ft. Collins with John and Pam, I think in the late 70's some
time. Anyway, didn't John and Pam do 'Mary and Joseph' sometime in the mid
1970's? I can't remember when Amy's first Album was produced, but I believe
Pam had at least one album several years before that. 

Jim Burrill
jburrill@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (The WILD Samoan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:58:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug20.212521.27978@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook) writes:
>In article <86628@netnews.upenn.edu> alailima@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (The WILD Samoan) writes:
>[A very fine post using I Corinthians deleted}
>
>Very good response.  Only 1 problem, though.  I think it is a huge leap to
>draw a parallel between (mostly an inanimate) object such as food and music.
>Do you think Paul would have had the same attitude toward music that was
>dedicated to an idol (in modern times: sex, money, "freedom", immorality,
>humanism, take your pick)?  Do you think he would have said that that music
>would be edifying, etc?  Let's compare apples to apples.
>
I think it is very easy for one to make music dedicated to one of the above
mentioned idols, without necessarily conveying that in the music itself (e.g.
instrumental). If we are presented with this music that does not in itself
convey it's attachment to an "idol", yet it "tastes" good, why should we not
partake of it? If, however it promotes the idol, or at least seems to do so
to us, then we should stay away from it. While food tends to be mainly "apples",
some music can be "apples" and others pears or oranges. But the qualifications
that I discussed in my post (beneficial, glorifying, etc.) rule out the oranges
and pears from the discussion. There are so many analogies flying around here
even I'm a little confused now. :-)

Grace and Peace,
Titi
The B.I.C.


>
>--
>Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
>noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
>Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
>Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2


--
    /~/         |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
 /~~  ~/ MARANA |Titiimaea "The WILD Samoan" \ President, founder, and sole   |
 ~/ /~~   THA!  |Alailima@Eniac.SEAS.UPenn.Edu\ member of the Penn Samoan Club|
 /_/            |______________________________\______________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: 7777777 Seventy Sevens 77777777
From: steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (jason "Think!" steiner)
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:38:13 EST

trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort) writes:
> I just listened to "All Fall Down" by the 77's again
> today and am wondering if anyone knows what in the world
> is being said at the end of "Ba ba ba ba" as they fade out.
> It sounds something like this:
> 
>    Dish bawkfa, dish bawkfa goot geh.
> 
> And is repeated over and over as the song fades out.
> Is this anything meaningful? Is it gobbledegook? Some
> foreign language? Tongues? Backmasking? WHAT!!!
> 
> thanks to anyone brave enough to interpret....

does the phrase have any ramping on it? if so it's probably
backmasking. if you've got access to a sampler most sampling
tools will let you flip sounds.

jason "While you've been looking for the devil /
	   The Lord's been looking for you!" steiner

--
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
`,` "I'd explain it to you, but your head would blow up." - S. Wright `,`
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Statement Condemning Musical Forms (was: is music amoral)
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:18:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Statement Condemning Musical Forms (was: is music amoral)
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Keywords: 

In article <1992Aug17.135834.10601@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante) writes:
>PLEASE NOTE: THESE ARE NOT MY OPINIONS
>
>  ---------------------- Begin National Group Statement ------------- 

[stuff deleted]


>  Be it further resolved that we believe it is wrong to attempt to 
>  communicate the things of God and His Word through a style of music that
>  in its structure is promoting the very opposite of the truth of God, and
>
>  Be it finally resolved that we strongly advise that careful scrutiny be
>  given to the music of our church fellowships and schools to be sure that
>  it follows the time-honored formula of great music -- beautiful melody,
>  glorious harmony, and flowing rhythm

----End Statement---

Y'know, stuff like this just ticks me off (no big surprise there, huh?).
I just wish someone would explain to me what the 'structure' of music has
to do with the message it communicates, and how that relates to the death
or maiming of plants.

And i love that helpful formula for 'good music'TM.  The [Baptist] church
that i used to attend (before i grew my hair out :-), the one that kinda
ran me off primarily for being a vocal advocate of CCM music, had arguably
the worst choir ever to sing in any church, anywhere.  The melody was heinous,
the harmony was dissonant, and the rhythm, well, these people couldn't clap
on 1 and 3 if their lives depended on it.  Does that mean that the songs 
they were singing were unacceptible for use in church fellowships?

And i know plenty of rock music, Christian or otherwise, that meets these
standards.  'Beautiful,' 'flowing,' and 'glorious.'  Yep, that's really easy
to define.  Helps a whole lot, yep.

Gimme a break.

JRjr



-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Scott Aaron)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:39:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.024631.9307@doe.utoronto.ca>, peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke) writes:
>
>About 2 months ago i went to Bill Gothard's Basic Principles Seminar
>(i forget the actual name). Anyhow i went to see what he had to say
>about music (i had gone about ten years ago and was not too impressed
>by what he had to say then). This time i was even more ticked off by
>what he had to say. During the seminar Bill always backs up what he
>has to say with biblical references BUT for his music bit he doesn't
>have much and his premise that "music is not amoral" is stated right
>at the beginning BUT NEVER substantiated anywhere. He build everything
>on this premise.
>
>So what are the views out there? The way i see it, those that are
>against "christian rock" or any rock for that matter state that music
>is moral but they then run into the problem in defining a Godly style
>(which is something they then have to define)...

I was just reading in Romans 15 that NOTHING is unclean in itself.  It's only
how we take it as individuals.  To say that oscillations of air molecules have
associated moral/ethical concepts has always been amusing to me.  The same
goes for assigning ethical beliefs to instituions.  I have heard many say that
"Stairway to Heaven" is a Satanic song.  I'm always moved by what I perceive
as its Christian message ("there are two roads you can go by and there's still
time to change the road you're on...").  The morality is in how YOU take it.

  -- Scott @Brandeis

                           I asked Jesus,
                     "How much do you love me?"
                     "This much," He answered;
                        and He stretched out
                         His arms and died.
From: rhm@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Bob Miller)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:35:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Paul Clark - Awakening from the Western Dream
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian

In rec.music.christian, anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu. (Claude W. Anderson) writes:
> For 10 years, Paul Clark put out some of the best CCM around... 
> ...But suddenly there were about 8 years of silence.  

Paul Clark went into a jazz-oriented style during that time and his audience
(and record contract?) vanished. He played a concert in my church (almost by 
accident) during that time. Nobody cared much for it. Jazz has never gotten a
very large or supportive Christian audience...

I'm sure that isn't the whole story, but it's the piece I know...

Bob ("then there was James Ward and Elan...")Miller
 
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Subject: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Organization: Dictionary of Old English Project, University of Toronto
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:46:31 GMT


About 2 months ago i went to Bill Gothard's Basic Principles Seminar
(i forget the actual name). Anyhow i went to see what he had to say
about music (i had gone about ten years ago and was not too impressed
by what he had to say then). This time i was even more ticked off by
what he had to say. During the seminar Bill always backs up what he
has to say with biblical references BUT for his music bit he doesn't
have much and his premise that "music is not amoral" is stated right
at the beginning BUT NEVER substantiated anywhere. He build everything
on this premise.

So what are the views out there? The way i see it, those that are
against "christian rock" or any rock for that matter state that music
is moral but they then run into the problem in defining a Godly style
(which is something they then have to define)...
-- 
Peter Mielke                                              peter@doe.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto, Dictionary of Old English Project  utzoo!utdoe!peter
From: gt6223b@prism.gatech.EDU (Jerry B. Ray)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: New Amy Grant song
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:40:10 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

I just read in the paper this morning that Amy Grant does a cover of 
Elvis' 'Love Me Tender' for the soundtrack of 'Honeymoon in Vegas' or
something like that, a new movie.

Bono (from U2) is also on there (on a different song :-)

Just thought (someone) might like to know.

JRjr
-- 
'Hear the tale of a fallen people, destined to wander their broken land.
Their eyes are vacant, full of empty meaning, and what they're missing they
just don't understand.  Beyond the dark horizon, out where the people are
crying, a Morningstar will be rising, rising to show us the way...' Whiteheart
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: peter@doe.utoronto.ca (Peter Mielke)
Organization: Dictionary of Old English Project, University of Toronto
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:16:59 GMT


In <1992Aug13.121650.25066@wybbs.mi.org>, Mike Faber writes:
> Two things about this subject, and I'll hold my tongue:
> 
> 1) God created everything.  If he didn't want music, he would not have
> allowed it.  However, everything that God created can be used for selfish
> or satanic purposes.  Which brings point #2
> 
> 2) 1 Corinthians 12:4?   No one speaking by the Spirit of God can say
> 'Jesus is cursed' and no on speaking without the Spirit of God can
> say 'Jesus is Lord'.  (Don't have exact verse, but this gets to the point.)
> Point being that music that in one way or another promotes Jesus as Lord is
> Godly, and that which on one way or another opposes Jesus is not.  I'm not
> going to comment on Amy here, because I don't know the fruits of her ministry.

But you haven't commented stuff that neither promotes or opposes. What
about this BIG category? The CCM bashers want to trash this category
as well...

> Therefore, you must ask yourself, "Who's getting the glory?" when determining
> whether a piece of music is for you, and let others do the same for
> themselves.

OK but how does one categorize something like a secular cantata (say
written by J. S. Bach no less which has the subject matter of mythical
Gods wanting to destroy the earth if it wasn't for the Name-Day of a
particular person BWV 205)?

> Michael Faber

Peter.
-- 
Peter Mielke                                              peter@doe.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto, Dictionary of Old English Project  utzoo!utdoe!peter