From: hiraga@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Yuzuru Hiraga)
Subject: Re: THE QUICK AND DIRTY GUIDE TO JAPANESE GRAMMAR (Posted)
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 14:27:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.001355.16497@u.washington.edu> tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu () writes:
>There was pretty strong interest in my guide, so I decided to post it.

I appreciate your posting the article --
it is well-written, informative, and also interesting (especially the
section on deletion).
I believe it to be a good guide for learning Japanese
(even though I really can't speak for this, as I've never
seen it as a second language :-)

Here are some comments and supplementaries.

>Plus we won't be worrying about those strange noun-like things that
>can act like adjectives.

Though we may have to worry about a class of nouns that take "-suru"
to form a verb (eg. rokuon-suru: to record).

>Now, in compiling this, I noticed that the descriptions are pretty
>comprehensive. So why aren't these things presented this way in class?

Why not? And how is it done?

>Before talking about particles let's get into word order. In general,
>standard word order for Japanese when using an action verb is:
>
>   [SUBJECT]+TIME+PLACE/IMPLEMENT+INDIRECT OBJECT+OBJECT+ACTION VERB
>
>   "Ashita, gakkou de sensei ni purezento wo agemasu."
>   ("[I'm] going to give a present to [my] teacher tomorrow.")

Add that since the particles explicitly determine the case roles
(unlike English, similar to German and of course Latin),
the word order is generally flexible.  One won't get misunderstood
even if it sounds awkward.
Deviation from the standard order is often used as a means of emphasis:
eg. "Gakkou de sensei ni purezento wo ASHITA agemasu" will emphasize
ASHITA (tomorrow, as opposed to today, etc.).

>PLACE/IMPLEMENT is followed by "de". By PLACE, I mean the location
>that a volitional *action* occurred. If you're eating at home, that's
>"ouchi de shokuji suru". If you're eating with chopsticks, that's
>"ohasi de taberu". The place you do something or the thing you use to
>do something takes "de".

It would be easier to add the case category INSTRUMENT here.

>INDIRECT OBJECT is followed by "ni". By INDIRECT OBJECT, I mean a sort
>of secondary object that some verbs take.

DATIVE, in grammatical terms.

>Deleting other Established Info

[SIDE NOTE]:
A related issue is the so called UNAGI sentences, of the form
	"Nani wo taberu?"	(What will you eat?)
	"Boku wa unagi da"	(I'll have UNAGI=eel; but literally,
				 "I'm an eel")
The grammatical basis of the latter sentence is a much debated issue.
This is also said to be the origin of a common error made by Japanese
in speaking English, eg.
	"Who's your favorite poet?"
	"I am Keats"

>Particle Ga

[SIDE NOTE]:
The distinction and meaning of particles "wa" and "ga" is one of the
most controversial (and still unsettled) issues in Japanese grammar.
The debate, as I know, was ignited by Akira Mikami's essay,
"Zou wa hana ga nagai" (which may mean, "An elephant has a long nose",
"The nose of an elephant is long", "It is the elephant that has a long nose",
among others).

>   ... This one sentence also helps dispell
>   the huge MYTH that "wa" is for negative sentences.)

Is there such a myth?	# I've never heard of it.

>VERB CONJUGATIONS
>...
>That's easy enough really because there are only three major verb
>types: -ru verbs, -u verbs, and -aru verbs (a polite type not much
>used except for "gozaru/gozaimasu").

In Japanese, -ru verbs are called either "Kami-ichidan" or "Shimo-ichidan"
(for "-iru" and "-eru" verbs, respectively), and -u verbs are called
"Godan" (recently, "Yodan" is preferred).
The -aru verbs are not particularly distinguished -- eg. "gozaru" ("nasaru"
etc.) are treated as (special cases) of Godan-conjugation.
Kami/shimo-ichidan[katsuyou] roughly means "upper/lower one vowel
[conjugation]"; corresponding to the fact that either the vowels "i" in "-iru"
or "e" in "-eru" are retained in the conjugations.
Godan/yodan[katsuyou] means "five/four vowel conjugation", in which the
postfix "-u" takes any of the five vowels AIUEO (Yodan is preferred in
conjunction with the archaic [scriptual] grammar form).

>-Ru verbs are those that end in -ru like taberu and ireru. "-u" verbs
>end in u, ku, gu, bu, mu, nu, su, tu, or [a,i,u,o]+ru (rarely e+ru
>because those are almost always -ru verbs like taberu.  I only know of
>three like that: keru/kick, heru/decrease and heru/elapse--there are
>probably more, but I have a feeling they would also only be two
>syllables like these).

See below.

>replace with "-te" for gerund:		tabete
> (gerund is for "and"-ing verbs (eat and go, "tabete iku") and simple
> orders (eat that, "are tabete")

"Gerund" seems to be a misnomer.

>replace with "-tara" for meaning "if":  tabetara
> (if I/someone eats)
> ...
>replace with "-reba" for another "if":	tabereba
> (if I/someone eats. A little different from "-tara" but don't worry
> about that now, they're pretty much interchangeable.)

Nevertheless :-)
"-tara" implies a sense of completion [of an expected event],
while "-reba" is more purely conditional.
eg.	"tabetara iku"	(When I finish eating, I'll go.)
	"tabereba iku"  (more like: If I eat, then I'll go.)

>replace with "-rareru" for passive "was X-ed":  taberareru <- now a -ru verb
> (looks exactly like "can" for this type verb. "Raion ni tabesaserareta."
> I was eaten by a lion. Use "ni" for "by" to show the agent.)

The sentence should be "Raion ni taberareta."

>Verbs like "iru" (exist or need
>depending on context) can be either type. In fact, "need" is an -u
>verb (gerund is itte) and and "exist" is a -ru verb (gerund is ite).
>If you hear one of these, (like "hairu") be sure to ask what the
>gerund ("haitte") or past tense ("haitte") is too,

The past tense should be "haitta".

>So far I've only met three verbs that ended "-eru"
>that were -u verbs instead of -ru verbs. These are: keru/kette (kick),
>heru/hette (decrease), and heru/hette (elapse).

One important verb you left out is "kaeru" (to return [home]; as opposed
to the homonym kaeru=to change).
Other examples are (including rare ones):
[those marked with * have -ru verb homonyms]

	takeru		(rage, rave / roar, howl)
	fukeru		(absorb, indulge)*
	kageru		(darken, be shaded)
	shigeru		(flourish, be overgrown)
	seru		(bid)
	aseru		(hasten, be impatient)
	seseru		(sip)
	haberu		(?to stand by, to wait on)
	suberu		(slip)
	teru		(shine)
	hoteru		(blush, glow)
	neru		(knead)*
	shimeru		(moisten)*
	numeru		(be slimy)
	nomeru		(stumble)*

May have dropped a few, but this is about it.

# I've gone through this before in the context of writing conjugate-generation
# programs.  This makes a nice problem for introductory-level programming.

>Replace -u with -ite for do "X and Y" and for simple commands.
>...
>kiku   -> kiite   (walk)    (replace entire -ku)

As the original article notes later, "iku" (go / die) is an exception -> "itte".

>kiku   -> kiita   (walk)    (replace entire -ku)
>kiku   -> kiitara   (walk)    (replace entire -ku)
>kiku   -> kiitari   (walk)    (replace entire -ku)

ibid.

>Replace -u with -oo for "let's do X".
> (works straight across, no phonetic changes in any of the types)
> ...
>harau  -> haraoo  (pay)

The pronunciation often sounds closer to "harawoo",
in conformance with the other cases where "w" is inserted.
[SIDE NOTE]: Etymologically, it seems sound to assume that w (or rather, h/f)
is present for other conjugates as well.

>Replace -u with -anai for negative. (This is now an adjective.)

This by itself can be a completion ("Kare wa nanimo hanasanai").

>Replace -u with -aseru for "make (someone) do X". This is now a -ru verb.
>
>hanasu -> hanasaseru (talk)

Should be hanaseru.

>Replace -u with -areru for "X is done (often to someone)". This is now
>a -ru verb.

-areru is also used for honorific forms.
The two [passive/honorific] are indistinguishable in surface form,
and often is the cause of ambiguity.
>...
>oyogu  -> oyogareru  (swim)

This is incorrect (as a passive) since oyogu is intransitive.
It is OK as an honorific.

>Replace -u with -aserareru for "be made to do X by someone". Same
>result as just doing the two conjunctions separately but is taught
>in most books as a specific conjunction. This is now a -ru verb.

"-aserareru" is truncated as "-asareru", and this is more common.
eg.
>kiku   -> kikaserareru   (walk)
	kikasareru

>[KURU]
>korareru                 ("can come")

Recently, "koreru" is also accepted.

>korareru                 (passive--no example comes to mind)

Again, no passive -- kuru is intransitive.

>[SURU]
>A cool trick to remember suru is that many of the conjugations match
>what you would get if you conjugated a lone "su", so it's kind of like
>"hanasu". Hanasita--sita. Hanaseru--seru. Hanasaseru--saseru.

But watch for the exceptions.

>Adjectives
>
>These inflections follow what a "ka+u" verb would do. If you can
>conjugate "kau" (to buy) you can conjugate every Japanese adjective.

I don't get this.
The analogy doesn't hold.

And why not add the conjugates of other type of adjectives --
KEIYOU-DOUSHI (adjective- verbial?), eg. shizuka[na], kirei[na].


-Yuzuru Hiraga
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan