From: cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: /REPOST: ***THE DIVINE MASTERS***
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Date: 8 Nov 1992 21:42:30 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

[--Note from the moderator--  The post "The Divine Masters" was let through 
   only because the original, which was totally irrelevant to the newsgroup 
   was modified to the form that was posted. Indeed, perhaps I should have
   been harsher and rejected the article on the basis of prosyletyzing.
   I will be more careful in the future.  As Tagi's post suggests,
   this material is probably better discussed on trna, so followups have
   been directed there.  --Toshi]

9211.07 e.v.

Toshi precurses 'the article':

[The author of the post apparently did not receive this article
 at his site, so I am reposting this article --Toshi]


Response:

I must've flashed past this the first time, but when it appears twice in a
newsgroup and has such blatantly extreme assertions I shall remain
silent no longer.  Also, does this belong in s.r.e.?  Yes, Eckankar is
a graft from Hinduism, but it seems to me that this would be better placed
in some New Age group.


Robert McElwaine writes:

THE DIVINE MASTERS 
            
Many people would agree, and correctly so, that Jesus
Christ was a perfect living Master, and a projection of God
into the physical world, God Incarnate. 


Response:

Many people used to agree that the world was flat and sat atop
a turtle.  This didn't make it 'correct'.  Your writing is an example of 
blatant dogmatism.
          
               
Robert:

But there are some very important related facts that 
followers of most world religions are COMPLETELY IGNORANT of. 


Response:

What follows is hardly factual, nor need the any followers 
of 'most world religions' find it very interesting.  Your approach
toward them seems disrespectful and ignorant to me.
               

Robert:

First, Jesus Christ was NOT unique, John 3:16 NOTWITH-
STANDING.  There is ALWAYS at least one such perfect living 
Master (God Incarnate) PHYSICALLY ALIVE in this world AT ALL 
TIMES, a continuous succession THROUGHOUT HISTORY, both 
before and after the life of Jesus. 


Response:
    
Information regarding any supposed 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'Jesus Christ'
is speculative at best and fallacious at worst.  That you assume his
life is known about, given the overwhelming evidence that supports the
view that the 'Gospels' were composed of mythical fragments drawn from
various mystery traditions (Osiris et al) is bad enough.

That you THEN begin to reference _The Bible_ as if you could persuade 
ANY, beyond the most fundamentalist of Christians, insults the intelligence
of those who post here and would be better sent to soc.christianity,
where it will get the flaming (if it even passes the moderated censorship)
that it truly deserves.


Robert:

The followers of some of these Masters founded the 
world's major religions, usually PERVERTING the teachings of 
their Master in the process. 
       
Secondly, and more importantly, after a particular 
Master physically dies and leaves this world, there is 
NOTHING that He can do for ANYbody except for the relatively 
few people that He INITIATED while He was still physically 
alive. 


Response:

Dividing the world into 'Masters' and 'followers' is a sure sign of
a group's corruption.  'Teacher' is bad enough, but when you begin to
set people (such as 'Jesus' or 'Sri Harold Klemp') upon the dias of
their 'initiation', you do a disservice to everyone.  My complaint to
you here is less regarding Eckankar itself (of which I've met and
enjoyed the company of a few members), but more about YOUR attitude
in 1) telling me what my truth is and 2) doing it in such a way that
it will inevitably come to harm those around you.  Elaboration below.
 

Robert:
               
Emotional "feelings" are a TOTALLY DECEIVING indicator
for religious validity. 


Response:

This is not only ambiguous, it is deceiving in itself.  You sound here
as if you would have us forget our trust in OURSELVES, the source of
all wisdom as I see it, and place our security and freedom in the hands
of others (presumably those whom you think are 'wise').  This is both
dangerous and foolish.  

'Emotional feelings' are a very important element of life.  They are
largely a subconscious expression of our psychic health.  While I would
tend to agree that they make poor sources for intellectual judgement,
the Heart (the Seat of compassion) is the PRIME element in many devotional
religions and cults (such, I would argue, as your own).

Have you so constrained your readings (to Twitchell and others) that you
know nothing of other religious paths?  Christianity (in ALL its many
forms, orthodox and heretical) is BASED on the teachings of the Heart.
God is LOVE.  Do you equate God with Satan here?  Bhakti yoga is a
major element of Hinduism and the source for much of Mr. Twitchell's
vocabulary, if not his entire theoretic.
     

Robert:

Thirdly, the primary function of each Master is to tune 
His Initiates into the "AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM" or "SOUND 
CURRENT", (referred to as "THE WORD" in John 1:1-5, and as 
"The River of Life" in Revelation 22:1), and to personally 
guide each of them thru the upper levels of Heaven while they 
are still connected to their living physical bodies by a 
"silver cord". 


Response:

This I can understand, though it strikes me as anti-worldly, anti-body,
and generally exactly the OPPOSITE of what I think most people will
benefit from.  I understand that asceticism is important.  However,
what you say below is going too far, in my opinion.
    
   
Robert:

True Salvation, which completes a Soul's cycles of 
REincarnation in the physical and psychic planes, is achieved 
only by reaching at least the "SOUL PLANE", which is five 
levels or universes above the physical universe, and this 
canNOT be done without the help of a Perfect LIVING Master. 


Response:

Here is the wind-up.  Note the focus on 'True Salvation' which has
become the hallmark of too many fundamentalist 'Christian' factions.
Note also the duality (physical/psychic).  While this hooks the
rabid materialists who have been drawn or forced into the psychosis
of modern 'civilization', it does nothing to heal them.  Unless it
drives them over the edge and into 'the Dark Night of the Soul', it
only enslaves people to your organization and those like it.


Robert:

One such perfect Master alive today is an American, Sri 
Harold Klemp, the Living "Eck" Master or "Mahanta" for the 
"Eckankar" organization, now headquartered in Minneapolis, 
(P.O. Box 27300;  zip 55427). 
    
Another perfect living Master is Maharaj Gurinder Singh 
Ji, now living in Punjab, India, and is associated with the
"Sant Mat" organization. 


Response:

Here is the follow-through.  Tell the newbies that there's only
ONE way to get the goods, then tell them that there is one (or
two!) source through which this way may be entered.  Typical cult trash.
I'd much rather hear what qualifies one AS a 'Master' and how we can
recognize a 'Master' when we see them.  Must they look like Harold
Klemp or Maharaj Ji?  Or could they appear to us as a cloud, a tree,
our smelly feces, our selves? (or BODIES?)
 

Robert:

One of the classic books on this subject is "THE PATH OF 
THE MASTERS" (Radha Soami Books, Gardena, CA), written in 
1939 by Julian Johnson, a theologian and surgeon who spent 
the last years of his life in India studying under and 
closely observing the Sant Mat Master of that time, Maharaj 
Sawan Singh Ji. 
    
Several of the Eckankar books, including some authored 
by Sri Paul Twitchell, can be found in most public and 
university libraries and some book stores, or obtained thru 
inter-library loan. 


Response:

These books are only 'classic' to you and your tradition, to
my knowledge.  You strike me here as a spokesperson for an
organization which follows in the great tradition of P.T. Barnum.
    

Robert:

Many Christians are likely to confuse the Masters with 
the "Anti-Christ", which is or was to be a temporary world 
dictator during the so-called "last days".  But the Masters 
don't ever rule, even when asked or expected to do so as 
Jesus was. 
    
People who continue following Christianity, Islam, or 
other orthodox religions with a physically DEAD Master, will 
CONTINUE on their cycles of REincarnation between the psychic 
planes and this MISERABLE physical world, until they finally 
WISE UP! 


Response:

Get a life (or another one :>).  Your disrespect for the very Christians
with which you ought be associated (fundamentalist) is horrific.  You 
tell them what is real and true, violating their own dogmatic
assumptions in the process.  You will be dismissed by evangelicals and
Moslems at your first mention of 'REincarnation', and wisely so.

Your one-wayism is at its worst here, and if this does not turn off the
open-minded, at LEAST it portrays the sort of matter(mother) hatred
which they've come to loathe in orthodox ascetic religions.  Again, I
think that asceticism has its place, but to glorify the 'psychic' and
portray the 'physical' as 'MISERABLE' is unbalanced and idiotic.
 

Robert:
    
RE-INCARNATION
          
The book "HERE AND HEREAFTER", by Ruth Montgomery, 
describes several kinds of evidence supporting REincarnation 
as a FACT OF LIFE, including HYPNOTIC REGRESSIONS to past 
lives, SPONTANEOUS RECALL (especially by young children, some 
of whom can identify their most recent previous relatives, 
homes, possessions, etc.), DREAM RECALL of past life experi-
ences, DEJA VU (familiarity with a far off land while travel-
ing there for the first time on vacation), the psychic read-
ings of the late EDGAR CAYCE, and EVEN SUPPORTING STATEMENTS 
FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE including Matthew 17:11-13 (John the 
Baptist was the REINCARNATION of Elias.) and John 9:1-2 (How 
can a person POSSIBLY sin before he is born, unless he LIVED 
BEFORE?!).  [ ALWAYS use the "KING JAMES VERSION".  Later 
versions are PER-VERSIONS! ] 


Response:

Here we are told more 'facts' from the most dubious sources imaginable.
I would agree that Montgomery, Cayce and even King James (smirk)
are valuable sources of information, but to place them as such
central features in your rabid assertions is ludicrous and silly.

[ALWAYS use the "NECRONOMICON".  Other grimoires are GRIM-OIRES!
Please, Toshi, I can read this kind of crap in alt.fundi.  Do we 
have to read it in s.r.e.?  I'd like an explanation as to why this post
was even let through ONCE.]


               
Robert:

The teaching of REincarnation also includes the LAW OF 
KARMA (Galatians 6:7, Revelation 13:10, etc.).  People would 
behave much better toward each other if they knew that their 
actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the 
future, or in a FUTURE INCARNATION!


Response:

If this isn't a clear example of media hype, given substance
by the guilt of a Christian upbringing I don't know what is.
At LEAST you could refer to Theosophy or Spiritualism or SOMETHING
credible.


Robert:

"2nd COMINGS"

If a Perfect Living Master physically dies 
("translates") before a particular Initiate of His does, then 
when that Initiate physically dies ("translates"), the Master 
will meet him on the Astral level and take him directly to 
the Soul Plane.  This is the ONE AND ONLY correct meaning of 
a 2nd Coming.  It is an INDIVIDUAL experience, NOT something 
that happens for everyone all at once. 


Response:

The fear of and denial of death as a necessary and natural process
of human existence is the major disease of modern Christianity
and of groups like Eckankar.  That we are not 'mere flesh' and can
expect a 'continuing life' BEYOND the 'cage of the body' is the
new snake oil being sold to gullible children.  

I agree that such MYTHS are important to our species, yet promoting
them as LITERAL truths short-circuits the nervous-system of those
who believe it and the society in which this ridiculousness continues.
    
          
Robert:
          
PLANES OF EXISTENCE

[Bulk of a tedious and old 'New Age' cosmology omitted.]

The major planes are also SUB-DIVIDED.  For example, a 
sub-plane of the Astral Plane is called "Hades", and the 
Christian Hell occupies a SMALL part of it, created there 
LESS THAN 2000 YEARS AGO by the EARLY CATHOLIC CHURCH by some 
kind of black magic or by simply teaching its existence in a 
THREATENING manner.  The Christian "Heaven" is located 
elsewhere on the Astral Plane.  Good Christians will go there 
for a short while and then REincarnate back to Earth. 


Response:

This is hilarious!  Propaganda to create your own universe!
First off, if you wish to establish historical ties to the terms
and 'planes' you use, please do some more research.  'Hades' was
originally a pagan deity, as was 'Hel', and their demonification
by the Catholic Church was political as much as cultural oppression.

That you can spout the kind of filth you do about the 'MISERABLE plane
of matter' and its poverty, the THREATENING tone of your
entire essay ('wise up or you'll be in pain for endless incarnations')
exemplifies JUST the type of 'black magic' which you remark on here.
          

Robert:

SOUND CURRENT vs. BLIND FAITH 
       
If a person is not HEARING some form of the "SOUND 
CURRENT" ("THE WORD", "THE BANI", "THE AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM"), 
then his cycles of REINCARNATION in this MISERABLE world WILL 
CONTINUE. 


Response:

[HOW MANY WORDS CAN *YOU* CAPITALIZE??!!]

Sounds pretty threatening to me.  Buy our beliefs!  Practice our
Way!  If you don't, you'll endure everlasting torment!  Please
desist from this empty alarmism before you do some real harm.
    

Robert:

The "SOUND CURRENT" manifests differently for different 
Initiates, and can sound like a rushing wind, ocean waves on 
the sea shore, buzzing bees, higher-pitched buzzing sound, 
various heavenly music, or other sounds.  In Eckankar, 
Members start hearing it near the end of their first year as 
a Member.  [I am a 2nd Initiate in Eckankar, and well into my 
5th year of Membership.]  This and other experiences (such as 
"SOUL TRAVEL") REPLACE blind faith. 


Response:

It would be less DECEPTIVE if
you would place 'Teachings of Eckankar' or some such at the header
so that those of us who wish to do so may place the subject in our
'kill files'.

I've spoken with a (drum roll) '5th degree Initiate, well into his
9th year of Membership' (oooooooooo) and he was as ignorant regarding
other religions and his closed-mindedness as you seem to be.  I assert
that Eckankar FOSTERS blind faith and that your article here is a
perfect example of it.

There is no difference between 'Hearing the Sound' and 'Being Born Again'.
Both of these experiences, while subjectively valid, are induced by
filling your mind with the accepted dogma.  One can make oneself experience
quite unbelievable (and stupid) things if one wishes to.  
    
Somebody ought to pair you up with Druta Karma.  I'll bet you two would
either have a blast or tear each other to pieces.  


Robert:
               
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.


Response:

Is critical examination of its contents encouraged?
This is a new low for s.r.e.  Nice going. :>


Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
------------------------------------------------------- 
"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie.
Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives he releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, he hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication,
Master the art of karate.
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water."

Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), Animals: Sheep, 1977.