From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Subject: Re: Fencing
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 08:07:43 GMT

In article <1900@celia.UUCP>, doug@celia.UUCP (Doug Nichols) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep1.145217.9176@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
pmw2c@csissun8.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner) writes:

Before I start talking about specific issues that have been brought up,
I would like to clarify that when I refer to SCA fighting, I am refering
to duello, or light combat, not heavy combat with rattan.  I hope I
didn't confuse anyone earlier.  

|> >CON for fencing -vs- SCA:
|> >-------------------------
|> 	A matter of degrees, really. Certainly you're not fencing in a
|> 	circle, but you are within a two meter wide rectangle. It's up
|> 	to the individual's ability and imagination to use the space
|> 	available to the maximum extent. It is not a strictly linear
|> 	game, however.

I agree that it is a matter of degrees, but I think the difference
is significant.

|> 	I'm curious about two rapiers being historically accurate.
|> 	One of the big problems I have about SCA, is that you can't
|> 	really argue the "historically accurate" question. Two rapiers
|> 	as a weapons choice sounds astonishingly stupid to me, as two
|> 	of these at once would be very unweildy due to their weight and
|> 	length, totally defeating the originally intended advantages of
|> 	mobility and speed in defense. I don't believe you could ever
|> 	convince me that using two would be "historically accurate,"
|> 	but what the hell do I know? I wasn't there. I think there is
|> 	too much room for the overimaginative and underexposed to make
|> 	their own decisions as to what is or is not historically
|> 	accurate in SCA. How defined are the rules? Are there any?
|> 	Can you do whatever you want, as long as nobody bothers to question
|> 	you?

Arguments about historical accuracy are solved the way all historical
questions are solved, by presenting evidance and making arguments based
upon the evidence.  In the case of fighting with two rapiers, it matters
not whether it is effective (it probably isn't), but, can you present
any evidence to show that it was done in period.  It isn't a perfect
system, but nothing is.

|> >Fencing is done in tournaments only, SCA fighting is done in melees
and
|> >tournaments.
|> 
|> 	Well, not really. Most fencing in this country is done in clubs
|> 	and colleges, and most fencers are recreational fencers and
|> 	never go near tournaments.

Ah, I'm afraid I failed to make myself clear.  What I meant to say was
that fencing has one-on-one fights only.  SCA duello fighting is often
done is melees, with 3 on 3, 5 on 5, etc.

|> >Fencing only allows certain target points, in SCA fighting the
entire
|> >body is a legal target.
|> 
|> 	Someone already corrected you on this.

Open mouth, insert foot :)  Seriously, I don't claim to be an expert on
fencing, I'm just a lone scadian trying to present a different
viewpoint.
 
|> >Fencing only allows thrusts, in SCA fighting draw-cuts are also
|> >allowed.
|> 
|> 	Ditto.

Are cuts allowed with rapiers?

|> 
|> 	Here's the thing; I guess I most want to know how training in
|> 	SCA works. How do you find a reputable coach? How do you know
|> 	he/she is reputable? Is there a governing board of any kind (and
|> 	I know that governing boards aren't by any means the best fall
|> 	back position, given that they are most often political
institutions,
|> 	which in my mind seriously dilutes their affectiveness)?

Training is entirely up to the individual, and it can be hard to find a
good coach.  The best way is to contact the local SCA group, talk to the
people who do duello and ask their opinions.  Many SCA groups run fight
practices, which aren't as regimented (or effective) as seeing a coach,
but they are free.  The rules for duello vary from place to place, and
since I'm in Virginia I can't comment much on what goes on in
Hollywood.

|> 
|> 	Ok, so I'm basically a fencing snob, because that's where I'm from,
|> 	and I wonder about whether what SCA folks are doing is really to
|> 	be considered anything more than good clean fun, for the sake of
|> 	dressing up and getting together with friends and having a good
time.
|> 

What's wrong with good clean fun :)  Different people in the SCA do it
for different reasons.  Some just like to socialize, others are
interested in medieval history, but some are serious about developing
martial skills.  

I'm not trying to attack fencing.  I know several people who participate
in fencing and SCA duello and enjoy both.  I do think that it is a shame
that I've seen fencers watch some SCA duello for about 5 minutes and
decide that its not "real" fencing and thus not worth doing.  To really
understand duello's strengths and weaknesses it deserves more attention
than that.  I would suggest you try it for a while before dismissing it,
you may surprise yourself and like it :)

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