From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:02:32 GMT

In <1993Jan7.000554.5134@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm 
Lee) writes:


>In response to what Simon writes here:

>In article <1993Jan6.190706.20382@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk 
(Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>|> 
>|> Or as others of us see it, you become a Christian following the development
>|> of infection by a parasitic memetic virus which uses your mental and vocal
>|> idea-broadcasting facilities to propagate 
>|> 
>|> Incorporation of a meme which expresses the imperative of evangelism ("you
>|> must spread the Word to your fellow man") is one of the great success 
stories
>|> of memetic viral evolution, because it vastly increases the reproductive
>|> fitness of a religious virus over its non-evangelical counterparts and
>|> enables it to spread like wildfire when the conditions are right, as they
>|> sadly seem to be in particularly the United States and parts of Asia right
>|> now for evangelical Christianity.
>|> 
>Christianity is not a disease.  Only those who willingly accept the Gospel are
>Christians.  No one should be coerced or forced into it.  It is an act of free
>choice.


>|> > It is a gift of God that cannot be taken away.
>|> 
>|> Luckily for the future of our dismal little species, the infection most
>|> certainly *can* be "taken away", as it was from me many years ago. A good
>|> dose of logic and reason often seems to do the trick, provided the 
believing
>|> brain is not already addled and damaged beyond repair and does not reject
>|> the serum as a result. As an example of this latter and tragic condition,
>|> to paraphrase the final impasse reached in any number of e-mail 
conversations
>|> I have had (no points for guessing who is who):
>|> 
>|>         "We must eschew human reason and trust in the Word of God
>|>          as set out in the Holy Bible!"
>|> 
>|>         "But how do you know that this *is* the Word of God other than
>|>          by your own human reasoning? *You* must have made your own 
decision
>|>          that the Bible *is* the Word of God at some point, mustn't you?"
>|> 
>|>         "We must eschew human reason and trust in the Word of God
>|>          as set out in the Holy Bible!"
>|> 
>|> Don't let it get to this stage, or you'll need a major emotional trauma
>|> to snap you out of it.
>|> 
>The gift of salvation cannot be taken away but it can be lost, unfortunately.
>I can't say why you lost your faith in God.  If it was because of what someone
>did to you or didn't do, why are you punishing God for it?  God would do 
nothing
>that wasn't for your own good even if it involves pain.  There are times when 
we
>ask God to hit us with a 2x4 when we do something wrong, and sometimes, He 
does.


>|> Analyse what you are saying and what it actually *means* in gory, intricate
>|> detail when you spout the flowery language of religion. Is it really 
tenable
>|> that, for example, an omnipotent and omniscient being can be in a state of
>|> want or hope for anything? Does omnipotence include the power to make 
oneself
>|> non-omnipotent? Is the very concept in fact utter nonsense? What are the
>|> consequences for want and hope if the supposed being is outside of time
>|> itself? And so on. Reject appeals to mystery and powerful, emotive language
>|> as satisfactory explanations.
>|> 
>I've never been omnipotent.  How would I know what God wants?  IMHO, I think
>God created us because He was lonely and needed loving companions.  He did not
>want robots or pets to provide Him with company.  He wanted loving companions
>who would choose to be with Him.  Think about it.  Would you tolerate someone
>who was an enemy in your house?


>|> Reason isn't very nice, warm or cuddly by comparison, but it doesn't have
>|> the same propensity to collapse on your head when the stress of holding
>|> together a teetering tower of mutually dissonant concepts -- without
>|> letting on to yourself that you're doing so -- finally becomes too much
>|> for our [thankfully less than omnipotent] brains to bear.
>|> 
>|> Cheers
>|> 
>|> Simon
>|> -- 
>|> Out-of-context quotes from s.r.c #3:
>|>     "There has been a good deal of discussion about how original sin is
>|>      passed on.  Is it inherited from the parents or what?  As far as I
>|>      know, no specific theory has ever gained wide acceptance."

>Reason and logic.  We are not Vulcans.  We have emotions and, yes, sometimes
>feelings are not reasonable and not logical.  My faith is not based solely on
>feelings and flowery passages.  Having been a sinner for 25 years and a 
believer
>for 6 years, my faith is based on personnal experience.  I have felt God's
>presence and heard His voice.  He is real!  He is real!  Jesus lives!

>God loves, man kills.

My faith is based on experience and on fact.  I also trust that what God says, 
in His word, to be true, is true.
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