HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hruby@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Suggested mod to judge
Date: 11 Jan 93 17:39:34 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <1993Jan11.185737.26585@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, positron@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jonathan Haas) writes:
> How's this for an idea:
> 
> Make the judge strip every line of an input file past a line beginning
> with "--", UNLESS those lines would be part of a press message.
> 
> The reason: I just got a new mailer, which autoappends my .signature
> to any mail I send. The judge chokes on this. Why not strip signatures
> from input files?
> 
> -- 
> __/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
> \    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
> /_  _\  positron@eecs.umich.edu  | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
>   \/    Finger for PGP key       | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.
-- 
Jonathan,

You may have gotten Email replies about this, but I'll post for the 
benfit of others also.

The solution to your problem is to use the "signoff" command at the 
end of your orders. The judge then ignores everything that comes 
after it encounters the 'signoff' command.

Hope this helps.

Tim
__________________________________________________________________
Tim Hruby
Hruby@Guvax.georgetown.edu
Hruby@p841.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org
From: s9000289@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au (Cameron Hooper)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: MNR and EP
Date: 9 Jan 93 18:04:11 +1000
Organization: University of New South Wales

First let me say I am not interested in engaging in a debate about the
relative advantages/disadvantages of MNR vs. NoMNR.  Others can follow
that tread better than I.  All that matters is that MNR games are not 
restricted.

Regardless of the inclusion of MNR games in EP (and I'm not completely 
sure all that entails) I think the games should be bound by the 
EP House (?) Rules.  These seem to gain a lot of sensible rulings. (Or
do these go with using the judge regardless of inclusion in EP?)

I think the only exception taken towards MNR games is the randomless 
introduced by CD.  If this did not occur in any particular MNR game, 
would it be eligible for inclusion in EP?  Would this entail a lot
of work?

I think it's great such games are at least being attempted.  'Though 
I also like one side effect of NoMNR: it provides opportunities to play
in much more advanced games (in terms of time).


Just some thoughts.
 

-- 
Cameron Hooper
s9000289@csdvax.csd.unsw.oz.au
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
What's another way of describing the bottom of a recession?  The start
of the recovery.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Chocolat on the EFF Judge
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 06:54:52 GMT

If you're looking for a game needing a power-takeover, scope out
'chocolat' on the EFF Judge.  France needs to build two units, see?  And
France is about 14 hours from going CD.  If France hasn't woken up and
issued build orders by this afternoon, *poof*.  'chocolat' is a Fleet_Rome
game so if France has a widdle "CD" next to its name when you do a 'list
chocolat', you'll need to 'signon fchocolat <your-pw-here> fleet_rome' to
let the Judge know that you're aware that it's a Fleet_Rome variant. 

Fleet_Rome is pretty similar to standard -- it just means that Italy
starts with a fleet in Rome instead of an army.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Re: Mapping a Chaos game
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:03:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.091041.17535@infodev.cam.ac.uk> Neil.Dodgson@cl.cam.ac.uk writes:
>Is it possible to get a map of a Chaos game?  I tried on game
>`everyone' on the EFF judge, and got a "blank" map (no units on the
>board).  It is tedious in the extreme to map a game with 34 players!

  It is not possible for the mapping software to produce maps of chaos games.
I suspect it would be relatively easy to fix, but I don't have the time to
worry about it at the moment, I'm afraid.

-David



Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: NMR, games with many replacement players, and Hall of Fame
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 07:00:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.053356.11187@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>Joel Furr (jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:
>
>> Speaking as one of the advocates of NMR, I couldn't care less if NMR games
>> don't get EP numbers. [snip]
>
>That's really the issue here, not whether NMR games are worthwhile or not. I
>think that Youngstown is a severely broken variant, but that doesn't mean I
>want to ban it. (I might support making it non-EP, though! Not that I'm
>proposing this now, mind you, but I could see a case for it... :^)

Okay, then, let me clarify.

1) I think NMR is just as valid a form of Diplomacy as Forever-And-A-Day-
With-A-Cast-Of-Dozens games, if not moreso.

2) I don't care if NMR games are not extended EP recognition.

3) I don't care if NMR games are not included in the Hall of Fame.

4) I'm willing to argue long and hard with any snobs who tell me that
Forever-And-A-Day-With-A-Cast-Of-Dozens games are "better" and "truer to
the spirit of the game" than NMR.

5) I support opening NMR games only for people who have no problems
whatsoever with NMR.  If you don't like NMR, don't sign up for an NMR game.

          (__)                                           
          (oo)                                                     Joel Furr
   /-------\/                                     jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu
  / |     ||                                            Blacksburg, Virginia
 *  ||----||                                                             USA
    ^^    ^^

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Game aargh! not eligble for EP (was 24-Hour Warp With NMR)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 21:29:54 GMT

In article <C0CJzt.EMq@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca (Nick Fitzpatrick) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.003108.27938@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>The game "aargh!" is forming on the EFF Judge.  If you've ever been in a
>>24-hour warp game where, because the game was under No NMR (meaning that
>>the game didn't go forward until all seven players submitted orders, even
>>
>For the record, I would like to point out that that game aargh! is
>not eligble for inclusion in EP.  There are three main rules for
>inclusion in EP.
>
>1)	Must be noNMR
>2)	Must be moderated
>3)      Games must be different site
>
>Also, EP does not recognize Machiavelli games . . ..
>
>So far, all games started at the EFF judge, have been part of EP,
>except the games chocolat (GM declined) and genoa (Machiavelli).

I acknowledge that aargh! is not eligble for EP.  This does not sadden me
because, frankly, I'm *very* tired of waiting weeks and weeks for someone
to submit their move.  If someone takes the full three days and the seven
day grace to move, then spends a week debating his retreat order, then
spends a week deciding when to build, you can maybe get in one turn per
month.  I wish more games were NMR.  I know that NMR is not a situation
you'd get sitting around a table with some friends and it DOES mean that
the game is no longer a pure strategy game worthy of analysis and debate,
but it *does* keep the game moving.

As moderator, I will be keeping a detailed log of all press and actions by
the players in order to create an article about the game for posting here
on rec.games.diplomacy.  If EP doesn't want it, that's fine; perhaps it
will still be of use to people who want to know more about how NMR
actually works in the course of a game.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 16:38:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.062752.20379@leland.Stanford.EDU> hufnagel@leland.Stanford.EDU (Todd Hufnagel) writes:
>David C Kovar writes:
>>  I did a bit more thinking about this, too. If you sent out a message to
>>all the players each time a private message was sent, then you'd swamp
>>people with email. But how about if there was a summary sent along with
>>your current move status that showed you how many times each of the other
>>countries had sent email to each of the other countries? The table would
>>be reset after each move.
>
>I think this is a great idea; not knowing who's talking to whom makes the
>e-mail version of Diplomacy quite a bit different than ftf (of course, it's
>different for other reasons, too).

IMHO, there are feeps we need sooner than this one.  Sure, in FTF
Diplomacy you see everyone talking to each other, and can, per the rules,
attempt to eavesdrop, but it adds realism in Judge Diplomacy that you
don't see who's sending mail to whom.  In the real world, you don't know
who's sent a secret dispatch to whom.

As an alternative, I propose an _optional_ feep that you could set as a
flag on your game.  Players would be able to attempt to intercept other
players' mail.  Failure would be reported to the players involved in the
mail.  Success would mean you would get the contents of one message.  Of
course, this would be useful only in gunboat games.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: NMR: truth or heresy?
From: <TMS139@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 17:17:38 EST
Organization: Penn State University

I like these parameters.  Discard them at your leisure.

Don't count a game for the Hall of Fame if

   - It's NMR and powers with more than two supply centers go CD
     more than one turn total in the game; or

   - It's NoNMR and more than 8 replacements occur.

These are pretty much just variations on previously suggested ideas;
the one new thing was the exception of CDs of minor powers from the count.

Tim
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Warp Weekday Game
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 06:02:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.023231.10550@ll.mit.edu> shoham@ll.mit.edu (Daniel Shoham) writes:
>WARP ON WEEKDAYS, ANYONE?
>-------------------------
>I see there are many open slots and forming games of the 24 and 48 hour
>Warp variety. Some of us would love to join Warp games but have no
>computer.net.access on weekends.
>
>Perhaps some weekday Warp games can be started, or games in need of
>replacements be modified to not set deadlines during the weekend.

"aargh!" was specifically made weekends-included to see how that works.  I
am not about to try moderating a second game but DO encourage anyone who
DOES start another 24-hour warp game to use NMR.  If you don't, "warp"
games are _not_ likely to be "warp" but rather "wait three days for the
countries to go CD, advertise for replacements" over and over.  Sigh.

Or if you don't use NMR, at the very least don't do something insane like
setting a 24-hour deadline with 72-hour grace.  IMHO, doing that
guarantees one turn or fewer per week since you've disallowed weekends,
assuming that you do as the poster says and make one like that.  If you
don't use NMR and you want "true" warp, make it 24-hour deadline, 24-hour
grace, and use the days setting to force all deadlines to noon or later
each day by using lower-case letters.  48 hours without NMR is _plenty_ of
time for most of humanity to get orders in.
From: rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: List of new games
Date: 10 Jan 93 12:09:33 GMT
Organization: None

Hi

Is it possible to get a list of new games needing players ? The
'list' command lists all games.
Also I've tried 'signon ? password' and 'signon ? password gunboat'
but that doesn't seem to work, is that because all games on the
eff judge are moderated ?

Rob
-- 
/-----------------------------------------------\       Never              ,==.
| Rob J. Nauta, UNIX computer security expert.  |        Apologize,       /@  |
| rob@wzv.win.tue.nl, Phone: +31-40-837549      |         Never          /_  <
| Feel free to email me for free advice         |          Explain.     =" `g'
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: duizie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Ken Duisenberg)
Subject: Uh, *what* is NMR?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 20:31:59 GMT

My apologies, I should look elsewhere, but I don't even know where to look.
What's NMR stand for?  Thanks.  KD
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: EFF Judge
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: Down?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 18:05:18 GMT

In article <Jan.6.11.50.14.1993.12234@math.rutgers.edu> desper@math.rutgers.edu (Rick Desper) writes:
>The EFF Judge is not bouncing my messages.  Has anybody received mail
>from it today?  
>					Rick

I've had no trouble with it.  I started mailing it around noon EST and had
no problems.
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: cmunn@world.std.com (Chris Munn)
Subject: Game 'light' - which power is abandoned.
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 12:51:14 GMT

Here's the list for 'light'. It is set "quiet" for some reason, but you can
see that it is waiting for Turkey's move, Turkey has a retreat required,
and Turkey is listed as being CD. So I'd guess Turkey needs an owner.


Game 'light' order #014 (F1902R) has a deadline of Fri Jan  1 14:29:50 PST.
Those who haven't gotten their orders in will be abandoned if nothing
is received by Mon Jan  4 14:29:50 PST.

The parameters for 'light' are as follows:
  Move    clock 1410 min 12.00 next  48.00 grace  96.00 delay 0.50 days --TWTF-
  Retreat clock   -1 min  0.00 next  24.00 grace  72.00 delay 0.50 days --TWTF-
  Adjust  clock   -1 min  0.00 next  24.00 grace  72.00 delay 0.50 days --TWTF-
  Access:  Different-site, Level: Any, Moderated.
  Variant: 1898, Gunboat.
  Flags:   NoNMR, Quiet, NoProxy.
  Press:   None, No Partial.

The following players are signed up for game 'light':
  Germany            3/5      someone@somewhere
  Italy              6/6      someone@somewhere
  France             6/6      someone@somewhere
  Russia             1/1      someone@somewhere
  England            4/4      someone@somewhere
  Austria            4/4      someone@somewhere
  Turkey     move    4/5      someone@somewhere
  Observer                    someone@somewhere
  alternate                   cmunn@world.std.com
  Observer                    someone@somewhere

1 power is abandoned.

Status of the Retreat phase for Fall of 1902.  (light.014)

...

Turkey:  Fleet Rumania can retreat to Black Sea.
Turkey:  Army Sevastopol.
Turkey:  Fleet Eastern Mediterranean.
Turkey:  Army Constantinople.

...

Turkey:    5 Supply centers,  4 Units:  Builds   1 unit.   (* CD *)



Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: Game aargh! not eligble for EP (was 24-Hour Warp With NMR)
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:52:20 GMT

Joel Furr (jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:

> As moderator, I will be keeping a detailed log of all press and actions by
> the players in order to create an article about the game for posting here
> on rec.games.diplomacy.  If EP doesn't want it, that's fine; perhaps it
> will still be of use to people who want to know more about how NMR
> actually works in the course of a game.

Actually, EPC2-the-magazine would be quite interested in publishing such an
article. Or at least, speaking as editor of same, I'd be interested in
publishing an article commenting on the effects of NMR on an actual game; I
can't promise anything for future editors, of course. Still, I think it's an
interesting subject, and would be happy to hear comments from both
proponents and opponents of the "EP should include NMR games" issue.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him,
and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said 'I helped skin Bob.'"
From: jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Retreats
Date: 10 Jan 1993 03:44:25 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1993Jan9.022029.29142@samba.oit.unc.edu> Mark.Wilson@launchpad.unc.edu (Mark Wilson) writes:
>
>	Are there any ambitious programmers out there who have access to
>the judges code?  Actually you don't even have to be ambitious to 
>implement this change.  I have noticed that the Judge will initiate a
>retreat phase even if there is only one legal retreat!  Since the
>judge handles everything else so well I was surprised to see this.

This would take away the option of disbanding the unit instead of retreating
it. So I think the Judge must continue as it is.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: positron@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jonathan Haas)
Subject: Suggested mod to judge
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:57:37 GMT

How's this for an idea:

Make the judge strip every line of an input file past a line beginning
with "--", UNLESS those lines would be part of a press message.

The reason: I just got a new mailer, which autoappends my .signature
to any mail I send. The judge chokes on this. Why not strip signatures
from input files?

-- 
__/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
\    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
/_  _\  positron@eecs.umich.edu  | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
  \/    Finger for PGP key       | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.
From: PL436000@brownvm.brown.edu (Jamie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Supporting a Support
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:18:38 GMT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

>jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:
>
>>In my last ftf game, the GM invoked a rule that I didn't necessarily
>>agree with but seemed to be standard.  That was the invalidation of support
>>for units offering support to another attack.  Eg:
>
>>France: Pic -> Bel
>>       Bur S Pic -> Bel
>>       Par S Pic
>
>        ^^^^^^^^^ ! this should read Par S Bur !
>
>>Germany: Mun -> Bur
>>        Ruh S Mun -> Bur
>
>>His ruling was that the support from Par to Bur was invalid, because Bur
>>was not holding.  The exception he allowed was for mutual support.

He was wrong.

The rules are VERY clear about this.

"A unit not ordered to move (i.e., one that is ordered to hold,
ordered to convoy, ordered to support, or not ordered at all)
may receive support in holding."

(That is part of rule IX.6 in the '76 edition.)

>>Now in a judge game, I have been bounced on an attack, playing a position
>>similar to Germany's above.  Therefore, the judge allows the support from
>>Paris.
>
>>I suspect that the Judge is the correct interpretation, but want to be sure,
>>and ask that someone point me at the location in the rules that describes
>>this.

JUDGE had the right interpretation.
There is only one situation I know of in which JUDGE will process
orders in violation of the rules, and that is a VERY rare situation.
(Though according to Ken it did come up once.) It has to do with
the Pandin Paradox of a convoyed unit cutting support of a fleet
moving into a body of water or standing in a body of water. Don't
worry about it. Assume that JUDGE is always right.

>Sorry for the critical mistake and waste of bandwidth.

Don't mention it.

Jamie
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts)
Subject: NMR: truth or heresy?
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, CANADA
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 06:31:50 GMT


I've been watching the discussion regarding NMR, and have to admit that
recent experience pushes me to say that I consider NMR as valid as NoNMR
In three separate current games, I have:
 - watched a carefully prepared plan go completely wrong, because the power
   with which I had a treaty went CD and was taken over by someone who
   submitted contradictory orders almost immediately, without engaging
   in diplomacy
 - sat and waited, and waited, as we have been unable to finish a single
   turn for five weeks
 - got cruelly stabbed (a fine job, I must admit), and then found that the
   players that reduced me to a fingerhold have disappeared, while I loyally
   submit my dying moves [this is monkey on the Washington Judge - the three
   late powers are E/R/A, with 6 or 7 units each; if and when they become
   CD on Tue Jan 12 @ 23:30, someone *please* take over]

I believe that either of the following two events should invalidate a
game for scoring purposes:
 - in a NoNMR game, where an excessive number of replacements are made
   (after all, in a face-to-face game replacements are rare), because
   diplomacy degenerates
 - in an NMR game, where an excessive advantage is gained by some power(s)
   as a result of a CD situation

Of course, the question is: what is *excessive*?
How about:
  NoNMR - if any power is replaced more than twice, or the total number of
  replacements during the game is greater than 10.
  NMR - if any power gains more than 2 supply centres during the course of
  the game as a result of CD.

Okay, flame away, but notice that these guidelines at least do not require
some subjective evaluation by a GM or editor, and could theoretically be
programmed into the Judge.
--
John M. Roberts   jroberts@sanjuan.uvic.ca
voice: (604) 384-4131   fax: (604) 384-1194
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy