From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: KP: Nope. Not when I believe...
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:25:02 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul28.203838.18809@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
> ... back off can you.  You are the most verbose person I have ever encountered.
> Not only that but your talent for embellishment is unparalleled.  Let me
> calmly address the issues you seem so confused about.  Just in case I have
> misled you in someway:
> 
> 1) Fantasizing about rape is sick.  When I say rape I mean true rape.  That is
>    person A forces person B to engage in one or more sex acts against person
>    B's will.  No consent involved before, during or after.

What makes you an expert on what makes a person sick? You previously said that
only God could make that judgment.

> 
> 2) Watching films with rape scenes (rape being defined above) for the sole
>    purpose of enjoying the rape scene is sick.

Once more, what makes you an expert on "sick", and what is you definition of
"sick".

> 
> 3) Fantasizing about killing people in a war (or any other circumstance) is
>    sick.  This means killing people for the fun of it.  Not killing people
>    in order to prevent them from killing you or others that you care about.
>    War heros are not heros because they kill people.  They are heros because
>    they are willing to sacrifice their own lives for the common good and
>    demonstrate this in some way.  In most instances this does involve ending
>    the lives of other human beings.  Who is to say that those people aren't
>    heros too?  Certainly not me.  Indeed the art of war and military history
>    are topics to which I have devoted no small amount of time.  I revere
>    the sacrifices made by all fighting men (women).  Not just those that become
>    heros or get killed in the process.  I don't however go around fantasizing
>    about becoming a hero at the expense of other peoples lives.  That is
>    sick no doubt.

So if fantasizing about rape is sick, and fantasizing about war is sick, and
watching a movie with a rape scene and getting pleasure out of that scene is
sick, is watching Uncommon Valor for the fighting scenes sick? Is watching
Predator for the drama of how Billy died sick? Is watching Friday the 13th
sick? (No need to say 'for the killing,' as that is all those movies are!) Is
wathcing Easy Rider and enjoying the ending sick? What about Witness--if I
enjoy the scene where the guy suffocates in the grain bin, does that make me
sick? In the movie Gumball Rally, we all watch it for the speeding, which is
against the law and places people, not just the partipants, in danger of death
and mutilation--are we sick for enjoying this?

> 
> 4) Watching war films for the sole purpose of enjoying the death and dest-
>    ruction is sick just like watching rape scenes as above.

What about watching Love Story for the drama and heartbreak he feels when she
dies. Is that sick? If we love the drama of Hamlet, especially the death of
Polonius, or where Hamlet sends the sword through his uncle, now the king, and
then forces him to drink poison, are we also sick?

> 
> 5) Killing people sometimes prevents other people from dying.  It sometimes
>    is needed in order to promote the common good.  In war killing others
>    is normally a dangerous occupation.  When a person puts his (her) own life
>    in danger in such a situation, in order to protect others, it is in my
>    opinion a noble act.  I believe most people would agree.  I could be
>    wrong about that last part but I know how I feel.  RAPE however, NEVER
>    protects anyone, nor does it promote the common good.  It doesn't promote
>    anything good.  All it does is hurt.  That is the difference.

Indeed. But we are talking about real situations here. You have slipped from
films and fantasies into reality. The transition does not work. Stop talking
about the merits of actual rape, as everyone here would agree that there is no
socially redeeming quality to it. Dead issue.

> 
> 6) There is a plethora of socially unacceptable subjects which I don't think
>    are good things to fantazise about.  Many of which in my opinion are 
>    sick big time.  Rape just happens to be at the top of my list.

What if a husband and wife decide they want to act out a rape fantasy? Or, two
lovers? They are both consenting and PRETENDING not to be consenting partners.
Are they sick when they do this?

> 
> 7) I would rather blindly attack the problem of rape in our society than sit
>    around waiting for something to happen while people like yourself go
>    right on compiling lists of flicks with rape scenes and telling people it
>    is a-ok to have fantasies about forcing another person to have sex with
>    them.

And if you kill a few innocent people in the process, c'est la vie!

Well, there is one big problem with what you are advocating. We have been
blindly attacking the problem since time began, using the SAME techniques you
are advocating, and all that has happened is one in four women share the a very
sad common experience with your wife.

The ONLY thing that is guaranteed by your approach is that things will stay the
same. And that means that if you have four daughters, or four grand-daughters,
at least one of them is likely to know rape as intimately as your wife. If you
have eight instead of four, one will know regular rape, and one will know
gang-rape.

I am not advocating sitting around. What I am advocating is LET'S LOOK AT THE
PROBLEM AND USE OUR HEADS WHEN DEALING WITH IT THIS TIME! You want to use the
same methods that have not affected the problem one whit in a thousand
generations? Fine. Go for it. 

Just be aware that you are NOT going to be part of the solution. What you want
doen has already failed!

> 
> 8) I'll only tell you this one time.  Leave my wife out of your post.  I can
>    assure you that I am serious on this point.  I am deadly serious.  You are

Going to kill me now also?

>    welcome to attack me all you want.  But leave her out of it.

You tell me where I attacked her, and I will apologize. I don't believe I ever
attacked her in any way shape or form. I DID ask you to consider how your
actions might affect her. If you consider that an attack, I apologize. If you
are referring to something else, please, let me know what it was. 

								To answer
>    your question, if my wife has such fantasies (I am sure she doesn't) she
>    wouldn't be able to tell me or anyone else about it.  Regardless of how we
>    would react.  You see DC, rape can do that sort of thing to you.  After
>    3 different animals force you to have sex with them every day from age 6
>    to age 13, well it's a little tough to talk about.  Even to yourself.
>    Especially when they tell you what a piece of garbage you are, that you're
>    a whore etc, etc.  It takes professional help to get better.

Yes, I know. Took my mother until she was 48 before she could let it all go.
(Of course, it was only two uncles, and the attacks stopped at about 12.
However, her mother was bent on reinforcing the message up until my mother was
48.)  

								Now I know
>    that I originally mentioned my wife in this group.  I was attempting to
>    make folks understand why I feel like I do.  Maybe it was a mistake.  But
>    regardless let me warn you not to mention her again.  I mean it.  Just
>    don't do it man.

No, I don't think it was a mistake. If nothing else, it lets me know that your
methods, even if they strike me as counter-productive, come from the same
desire I have--cure the problem.

> 
> 9) No I don't know why I would defend a women more readily than a man.  I
>    guess it's because I like women more that men.  I kinda feel like a man
>    should be able to take more punishment than a women too.  Generally speak-
>    ing of course.  PLEASE ladies (if any are reading this) don't get pissed.

Does that taking more punishment apply to yourself as well? Including emotional
trauma?

> 
> A) I don't agree with your cause and effect analysis.  They are obsurd.  How-
>    ever I don't have the energy to counter them right now.  Need an infusion
>    of Lo Mein (chicken I think, need the protein).

Why are they absurd? Where does the logic not fit the verifiable facts?

> 
> KimmyD
> 
> 
> P.S.: I didn't look over this for spelling errors etc.  Please excuse.

This is an open forum, not a Comp paper. Don't sweat it.

DC


Newsgroups: talk.rape