From: kamal@specialix.co.uk (Kamal Mortoza)
Subject: Re: the "oh" experience
Organization: Specialix International, London
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 09:44:43 GMT

elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:

>   BZZZZT.  No matter how hard YOU try to control it.  My wife and I
>have had a successfully open and bisexual relationship for seven years
>now.  Not only do we _not_ insist on being in on each other's sexual
>lives, we've found we cannot function that way.  Yes, Omaha and DeWolf
>are the best of friends and love each other very much; Yes, I find May
>very attractive and, if Omaha's relationship with her starts going
>anywhere I'd love to get to know May better, but I don't insist that I
>be a part of those relationships, and I don't insist that Omaha be a
>sexual component of DeWolf and my sexual lives.

Hang on! I never said I had any problems with it - just that most couples
we've met do. My wife, for instance, gets off watching me enjoying myself
- even if she isn't particularly active in the lovemaking. I was simply
referring to the many, many people who simply can't handle watching their
SOs because of the traditional feelings of insecurity that it generates,
mainly because of the psychological conditioning that many can't shake off.
I really don't react to any relationships my wife has seperate from me, as
long as she's enjoying herself - knowing full well that I'm the main person
in her life. She can usually handle it if I go my seperate way occasionally -
but the one time I did have a long term male lover - she got jealose of the
time I spent with him, mainly because she said she felt left out. Since then
 - if it's more than a casual relationship, we've set the ground rule of
sharing. In your enthusiasm for your way of life, you have fallen into the
same trap that you accuse me of falling into, YOU PERSUME TOO MUCH!

>   This method works, for us.  Not what's happening here... _You_ are
>lecturing to the audience about what, In Your Apparently Not So Humble
>Opinion, works.  Sorry, not only does your method not always work, but
>in the case of _my_ relationship, it would be downright destructive!

takes all sorts to make up the world...

>   But don't presume to lecture to Piglet, or anyone else, about how it
>"should be," because what you think "should" ain't necessarily so.
>Offering examples is wonderful; in your case you have some to offer,
>and I think you should do so.  But presuming to have "the answer" is
>arrogant in the extreme.

I've known enough couples who used you approach - especially when we were
young. All - without exception, apart from us "insecure types" have split
up. Their relationships - I think - just became too ambiguous.
>>Going seperate ways will always raise the suspicion of deception - even
>>if there isn't any.

>   *SNORT*.  In other words, you don't trust your wife to come home,
>eventually.  Those niggling little fears of yours can't be dealt with
>by your love and trust in her.  Omaha and I have no such trouble.  And
>if we did, it would be our _responsibility_, as adults, to understand
>why, and decide whether we should fix it, or forget it.

How can you presume so much about a relationship between people you don't
even know. I know she'll always be back - I'm just not 100% certain about
myself, although she is. Anyone that can say they are completely certain that
they will maintain their main relationship in the face of additional private
relationships are not being honest.

>   You want my rude, crude, and socially unacceptable blanket
>statement?  Your marriage isn't secure; you need to have each other _in
>sight_ when you're "sharing."

Now who's being judgemental ?!

>>Try to relax a little, try threesomes. It can be just as fulfilling as
>>one on one lovemaking.

>   [ Snide mode on ]

>   Nineteen years, huh... let's see... 1973?  Well, that explains a
>lot.  Your entire post reads like a swingers manifesto from 1976.
>Guess what?  The 70's are DEAD!

>   [ Snide mode off ]

Most the baby-boomers, who are fast becoming the establishment, spent
their formative years in the seventies. Guess what - their all around you!
And why sneer at swingers ? It's a life style that works better than
the serial monogamists that seem to dominate our world.

>   In my soft and tender (not to mention tenderized) 26 years, I have
>relaxed a number of times, I have tried a number of things.  Some of
>them have worked, some of them have not.  Threesomes are one of the
>things that have _not_ worked for me.  I find the "third" person in a
>threesome distracting; I find myself feeling responsible for more than
>one other person's pleasure.

Well - that's your problem!

>   _For me_, having someone inflict massive amounts of pain on me is,
>in certain settings, as fulfilling as one-on-one lovemaking.  But I am
>not going to suggest to _you_, or anyone else, that the road to
>pleasure and joy is through being whipped so hard that your lips turn
>blue, your skin goes cold and you pass out.

>   Couples, triples, even working dozensomes, have their own rules made
>up by the people in them, and those rules work for them.  Those rules
>may include complicated charts, diagrams, and LOTUS 1-2-3 spreadsheets
>organizing who will sleep with whom and when... and if they're
>functioning, leave them alone.  Piglet said, quite emphatically, that
>she doesn't feel comfortable with the thought of a threesome.  Telling
>her to relax isn't helpful.  That's like telling a rape victim to relax
>and enjoy it.  (Okay, maybe the analogy's a little strong, but Piglet
>is _not_ having a good day and I don't think any of us want her doing
>something she won't enjoy because it's presented as "the only way.)

>   MY relationship works because I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt,
>that my wife WILL come home.  No questions asked.  And she knows I
>will.  No doubt, no suspicion, no deception.

>   Cite examples, encourage communication.  Laying down the law,
>especially where humans are involved, doesn't help.

Hey - I was relating what worked for us - with the added sugestion that
one should experiment with our approach before dismissing it. I was expecting
a discussion - but certainly did'nt expect this kind of barrage from some-one
with a whole bunch of preconcieved notions about other peoples relationships.
If going you seperate ways work for you good luck to you! We HAVE tried it,
because of other's insistance, usually because of their own hangups. It
depends really on wether or not you have a primary or main relationship with
your SO. If your SO is only one of many - then you are just playing around and
dont possess the anchor of a base relationship that will always be there.


>         Elf !!!
>-- 
>Elf Sternberg    __   |     I have looked into the abyss, and the abyss
>elf@halcyon.com  \/   | has looked into me.  Neither liked what we saw.
>elf@polari.online.com |                              - Brother Theodore
-- 


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