HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "colin perkel" <colin.perkel@canrem.com>
Subject: female circumcision
Reply-To: "colin perkel" <colin.perkel@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 10 Nov 92 14:33:24 EST

  JNR asks (possibly rhetorically:

-> if it were possible for a woman to compare having sex in possession
-> of her clitoris with having sex without it, which do you think she
-> would choose?

   That's likely the whole point ... women are not supposed to be able
to make the comparison ...

Col
---
SLMW V4.0 Silly Little Mail Writer (With Windows)

Internet: colin.perkel@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (kauta)
Subject: Re: Separate Development
Organization: Indiana University, Department of Mathematics.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 23:56:26 GMT

In article <BxDBD7.HxJ@ns1.nodak.edu> varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel) writes:

>When I see this formula of who shall talk about what, I see a pattern.
>Separate Development apparently has its adherents on the net, including a
>Pharonic crusader who either hates Nats or is an agent provacateur of the
>Nats (or both!).  
>
>If uitlanders (or outsiders or foreigners) shouldn't talk about Africa 
>(because it is presumably none of their business), then perhaps they 
>shouldn't.  And while we're at it, why should anyone bother interfering with 
>the economy of Africa by putting sanctions on South Africa or interfering in 
>its "internal" affairs?
>
>It seems to be a double standard to stick one's very big nose into South
>Africa's business but to keep one's nose out of the rest of Africa because
>that would be "racist".  I thought one should be opposed to apartheid, but
>were I to believe some of the more prolific posters here, one shouldn't oppose
>it, because that would be interfering in the affairs of Africa.

If the west had not poked its nose into SA affairs, we would have gotten rid 
of the cancer a long time ago! If we did that in Algeria with an even more
formidable foe, then surely the South African case is relatively a push-over.
But then, the entire western world is supporting their own kind in SA 
militarily and economically...even Israeli advisers are down there! The CIA 
tipped off the BOSS as to Madela's whereabouts. Because of this, the man had
to spend almost three decades in a South African prison. So, as usual, your 
ravings here are plain bullshit! Typical of rednecks from that part of the US.

>Just imagine some idiot saying, "There is nothing we can do about Somalia,
>because we would be butting into somebody else's business.  Somalis just 
>like to kill each other.  It's in their culture.  It is also a tradition 
>for Somalis to starve to death."

There would have been no problems in Somalia had the foreigners kept their
asses off her shores! Jesus Christ! What else needs to be explained to ya??!!

>Yikes.
>
>--Andrew Varvel--
>
>North Dakota Institute for the Study of Xenophobia
>


-- 
Internet: kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Bitnet:   kautaj@iubacs.bitnet          "......up to our necks in owls...":
Uucp:     kautaj@iubacs.uucp   worries of an anti-ozone, owl-killing paranoid.
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Rugby
Date: 13 Nov 92 06:18:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: hippo.1992Nov13.061850.21651
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

In <1992Nov11.101740.14083@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> adriaan@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Adriaan Joubert) writes:

>Last nights game at Wembley

>Northern Division vs. Springbokke
>	3          -       19

While it could be argued that culture and rugby mix, it may be more
appropriate to post this in "rec.sport.rugby".
-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
From: blda@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: GAY AFRICANS
Date: 10 Nov 92 12:26:24 -0500

Dear Paul,

I find it interesting that you believe you can
country in Africa.  I find it more absurd that you, as a 
straight person, know whether or not the gay culture exists in 
Africa.  Get a clue, gays make up 10% of the population everywhere.
There are plenty of gay bars in Kinshasa, gays all around you if
you just open your eyes and educate yourself.
act as a spokesperson for all Africans of any
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: re: South African Contacts
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:46:35 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: pmmst8@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu



I have received much email cautioning me to go easy. Some one pointed out that
even though I took precautions to hide the names of my friends at UCT (all at
their instigation) some one has pointed out that boers might persecute any one
who might have the same name. I wish to reiterate that the names given were suggested by my contacts. If they happen to be coincide with those of anyone in
South Africa, this is just an unintended coincindence.


makala
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Cultural Exclusivity
From: pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene)
Date: 9 Nov 92 05:20:26 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <1dhfnlINNdh8@tolmie.cs.ubc.ca> shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
>difficulty in taking seriously anyone who calls Buthelezi a wimp.

Coupled with what you spewed earlier on, you seem to think that I would   
value your judgement of me. I don't know what inspired such ideas in your
head, but I am surprised that you, a white South African, would think that
I consider it one of the things I should in the world to get your approval..
I must have become soft or neglected my duty when the broederbond think that
they are entitled to parade me and judge the color of my teeth...
 >
>>The problem in South Africa is not the ethnic violence but Apartheid and white
>>racism. Your questions have deliberately tried to focus on the symptoms rather 
>>than the cause.
>
>Scott
>(Flamed, but still melanin-disadvantaged)


Obviously you are pining to play the role of victim. Please your self though
you are fooling no one...



Makala
From: gds@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (Riel Smit)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Whatever (actually African culture)
Date: 5 Nov 92 11:42:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: casper.Bx8r6H.5Ko
Reply-To: gds@cs.uct.ac.za
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town

Amos.Omondi@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
>	Keep it up boys and girls.  Who knows ... with some luck we 
>	shall one day squeeze in something about Africa or culture, 
>	maybe even about African clture ... 

I have thought about this whenever I have been reading s.c.a over last 
couple of months.  So, let me try to start a "true" s.c.a thread going.
And Amos, I hope you will join in - I have always enjoyed your postings.

Cultural differences is sometimes the cause of misunderstandings, hurt
feelings, etc., but also amusement, enlightenment, endearment, etc.  Do any
of you have have anecdotes to tell based on differences in culture?  It does
not have to be from personal experience.

Some examples:

.  Consider friends (say two families) visiting each other and the lady of
   the house enters with a tray of things to drink.  In my culture it is 
   considered good manners for a man to stand up immediately, take the tray
   from her and serve the other people (or cary it to where she wanted it).
   (Which man, depends on the occasion, the relationships between those
   present, etc.)  I know of at least one place where, when I did that, 
   the woman looked at me in utter bewilderment and probably thought I was 
   very thirsty.  (In fact, same thing happened to an acquaintance - in 
   his case, the lady said quite bluntly "Sit down, you will get your turn".)

.  It is interesting how different students act when entering my office.
   (I have a notice on the door that says, "knock and attempt to enter; if
   you can't, I'm not here".)  An Afrikaans student would typically knock,
   hesitate a while, peek around the door and say "Um, excuse me, um, can I
   speak with you please?"  An English student would knock, open the door,
   and while walking to my desk start asking what (s)he want to know.  A
   Xhosa student would knock, hesitate a while, open the door, walk in
   without saying word, sit down on the chair and then start speaking,
   often not looking me in the eye.  (Note, these are generalisations, not
   all students from a particular group act that way.)

   Very rude of the Xhose student some Europeans (or Americans) would say.
   Not so.  In most (all?) South(ern?) African black cultures it is
   extremely rude to stand and speak to someone who is your senior while
   that person is seated.  You have to be seated first.  Also it is rude to
   stand at the door and "shout" at your senior inside.  You have to come
   in, sit down, and only then may you speak.  It is also rude to look your
   senior in the eye while speaking.  You have to speak with downcast
   eyes.

I have more, but will keep them (maybe) for later.
-- 
Riel Smit,  Computer Science                              gds@cs.uct.ac.za
University of Cape Town                      gds%cs.uct.ac.za@rain.psg.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod)
Subject: Re: Murder is OK in South Africa
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 12:54:30 GMT

In <2767.2AFAB8E4@catpe.alt.za> Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:

>On <04 Nov 1992 20:40> snggab01@uctvax.uct.ac.za said to All :

> suaz>Power comes from the barrel of a gun.(No prizes for guessing 
> suaz>who said that)

>Eddie Webb?

Chris Hani?  Saddam Hussein?  George Bush?  Eugene Terreblanche?  Maggie
Thatcher?  Die groot krokodil?
-- 
  F.F. Jacot Guillarmod     PO  Box 94     \        |     ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za
  Computing Centre       Grahamstown 6140   \      /     +27 461 22023 xt 284
  Rhodes University        South Africa      ;___*/   33 18 30 S | 26 31 45 E
From: lucio@phyrql.Alt.ZA (Lucio de Re)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Is racism "for whites only"?
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:03:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: phyrql.1992Nov11.140354.17958
Organization: MegaByte Digital Communications

ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes:

>Because he isn't paying any attention to us, we'll have to guess.

>My bet is that he is in America so as to have free and untrammeled
>access to Usenet to give us poor, misguided nohopers a hard time.

Sorry, J no lounge suite:  he's in America lest he be granted access
to NetNews in Africa and then be unable to claim that no African is
allowed to post.

-- 
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA)
The supernatural does not exist, but it gives me the creeps...
From: linda@frcs.Alt.ZA (Linda Jacobson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:03:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: frcs.1992Nov10.190322.17964
Organization: Onderstepoort School of Veterinary Science, University of Pretoria

Thus spake bross@splatter.nas.nasa.gov (Wilson S. Ross):

> After all this contrariness to Mr. Chowning's message, allow me to
> compliment him for stating the issue so clearly.

And allow me to compliment you for a sane, succinct and sensible
reply.

Linda

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linda Jacobson				'That's fine, boy, never mind
Department of Medicine			 the tulips.'
Faculty of Vet Science			     
Onderstepoort, South Africa			(Hunter S. Thompson)
From: ccsmcs@ufhx1.ufh.ac.za (Mr MC Stobbs)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Is this a chip on the shoulder I see before me?
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:12:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: ufhx1.1992Nov5.101254.24255
Organization: University of Fort Hare, Alice, Ciskei

In <9076@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> pmmst8+@pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:

>In article <Chowning.47.720814114@acuvax.acu.edu> Chowning@acuvax.acu.edu (Richard Chowning) writes:
>>Linda's language on this group seems to be really out of bounds.   
>>Chelagoi            alias             Richard Chowning

>Not just is her language out of bounds but even her participation in the discu
>ssion.

>Makala

This guy reminds me so much of a few (as in minority) people around here
who shout RACISM as soon as they don't get their own way or an argument is
going against them.

Is Pittsburg a medical hospital? Maybe they have a few rooi dakke with beds
available.

I'm sure he could fight the cause much better in Africa rather than being
 in capitalistic/racist USA.

Mind you, if we don't hear anything from him then we know there must be
a problem with the overseas link. :-)

-- 
Mark Stobbs 
Computer Centre
University of Fort Hare
ccsmcs@ufhx1.ufh.ac.za
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 06 Nov 92 17:59 PST
Subject: Re: Female Circumcision
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov2.203329.15042@netnews.lo:1642549663:cdp:1471700225:000:149
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Nov  6 17:59:00 1992


if it were possible for a woman to compare having sex in possession
of her clitoris with having sex without it, which do you think she
would choose?
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Zimbabwe: showers come but planting season comes not
Date: 11 Nov 1992 04:22:15 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics
NNTP-Posting-Host: kepler.unh.edu

The BBC reports that more showers fell in Zimbabwe today -
actually the rains have been coming on and off in the last
three weeks...the problem seems to be that these rains
come with winds from the west and the met office thinks
people shouldn't start planting yet until they get rains
from the north-west... they have a name for these rains
in Zimbabwe but I couldn't write it even if I tried...




-- 
lk(with the man in the yellow hat)              /\   /\
                                               /  \_/  \ 
%(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)(%)                  /         \
%      llk@unh.edu         %                 /           \
%    llk@anchor.unh.edu    %             \__              __/ 
%  FAX : (603) 862 - 4096  %           Hamba  Ine,  Adada   Cha! 
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: sunny@al.cs.wm.edu (J. Sunny Egbo)
Subject: Re: Absence of black postgrads
Followup-To:  shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst)
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:15:37 GMT

In Article <1e0mf8INNa7q@pacific.cs.ubc.ca>, shaze@cs.ubc.ca 
(Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
>I think that there is definitely something in this, and I have seen
>black students starting to work rather do Hons for this reason.
>Especially students who come from poor families often feel that
>they have a responsibility to start working so as to help support 
>their families.

Why should a child growing up in a rich country such as South Africa
have to make the choice between being the best he or she can be
or feeding his or her family?  You are begging many questions.  


>One of the ways that many universities are trying to increase the
>number of black students in the sciences and engineering is to have
>intermediate programmes between school and university. Although
>there have been some encouraging results, these programmes are
>expensives, and seem to rely almost entirely on the largesse
>(or otherwise) of the Anglo American & De Beer's Chairman's fund. It
>isn't a mass education system.

How expensive is it to deny 80% of the masses access to full 
participation in the affairs of their country?  I will bite my
tongue.

-Sunny
From: jnr@igc.apc.org (Jim Rosenfield)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Millions of girls brutally mutilat
Date: 4 Nov 92 17:20:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700197:cdp:1471700219:000:2885
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Nov  4 09:20:00 1992


I must say that I am surprised that my original post has gone in
the direction it has, but I should have predicted it.

I do not understand why people do these practices I have read and
heard about.  They sound horrible to me.  When I think about the
possibility of these crude surgeries being done to little girls
like my three year old, I want to cry.  But maybe there is some
useful purpose I don't realize.  It is not my intention to insult
anyone's culture.

I suppose it is natural for parents to feel they have the right to
do what they want to their children.  I believe this has been the
norm for many, many generations.  I can find few examples in
history of societies protecting children from their parents.  Here
in the U.S.  there have been groundbreaking legal precedents made
in just the past few years to protect children.

My grasp of infibulation/clitoridectomy is that young girls are
"altered" to somehow limit their sexuality.  I believe the
practice also is a way of adults showing the "newcomers" who is
boss.  This interpretation is based on my limited grasp of history
and cultures and how I have seen humans operate.  I presume the
"pecking order" to be almost universal.  Reading the United
Nations' "Convention onthe Rights of the Child", and especially
the enormous commitments made to improving the lot of children at
the World Summit for CHildren, I felt that this example (female
circumcision) of adults inflicting their will on helpless children
would resonate for people across cultural boundaries.  Who
believes adults should be able to cut up children's bodies with
impunity?  I think many assume they have this right.

I am equally appalled that adults press children into mortal
combat for their own political ends and that societies imprison,
torture and execute children for political crimes or for no
crimes.

Above all, the greatest killer of children is hunger and the
childhood diseases which become lethal with malnutrition.  But one
of the things that kiils many children who are malnourished is
this practice of ritual circumcision.

I am also opposed to those smothering cultural norms which limit
people's sexuality.  I suppose the female circumcision is one of
these.

As the author of this thread, I request that we keep the
discussion on a more scholarly level.  What are the dimensions of
this practice?  What place does it serve in the societies who
practice it?  Is there a reason, some justification?

Should children be protected from parents, from society?

[obviously there is a great deal of emotion, anger which arises
around this issue.  let's discuss why, as people seeking knowledge
together.  i admit that my first post was provocative, even
inflammatory.  this comes mostly from my own lack of empathy for
other's culture, but it also comes from my compassion for people
and especially children.  please enlighten me.]
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:20 PST
Subject: Re: rosenfield's education question
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov10.131907.49@acuvax.acu.e:1982046548:cdp:1471700247:000:1365
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Nov 11 20:20:00 1992


Cultures are not homogenous.  There are all kinds of lessons about living
found in "western" (northern?) cultures which are not exclusively
related to capitalism.

I think the thing is to promote the availability of wisdom, without
the baggage or imposing wholesale value systems.  i take note of
an earlier remark in the discussion about the effect of wealth and
power on the global conversations (the one with the most modems wins?).
still, i have watched grassroots people from divers cultures sharing
basic agricultural technologies, seeds, health secrets, vaccines,
techniques, and all sorts of wisdom without imposing, without
forcing some sort of wholesale capitulation of cultures.

the global info network facilitiates exactly this phenomenon.
whenever parents learn ways to get their children fed, they automatically
take better care of their children. this idea doesn't take any
force or promotion.  it is obviously what people already want to do
and just need a chance.  do any parents really want their babies
to die from hunger or infection?

would those parents have to capitulate their cultures in order to
have their children fed and vaccinated?  can they learn oral
rehydration therapy (extremely cheap and effective treatment for
common- but sometimes fatal for infants -- dairrhea) without
buying into a US-like health care system?

I think so.
From: blda@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Gay AFRICANS OSELE
Date: 12 Nov 92 07:59:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: gnv.1992Nov12.125934.1863


Dear Sir,

I did live in Zaire in a small village in Bas-Zaire.  In 
a nearby village lived two women whom the villagers considered
to be married.  They lived in the same house, were partners and
were not related.  No one in that village found it odd that
they were married persons (to each other) of the same sex.  That
particular village was far from "Frenchized" Kinshasa and far
from a main road.  There is my three cents.
From: philip@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: male circumcision (was Re: Female C
Date: 12 Nov 92 08:37:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: shannon.1992Nov12.083759.17426
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Wits University
X-Xxdate: Thu, 12 Nov 92 10:22:39 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12

In article <1992Nov10.131907.49@acuvax.acu.edu> , ltt75326@acuvax.acu.edu
writes:
>education is so diatructive to a cultural harmony that has been in
>existence so long, what shall we say? I believe the problem is that
>the West can most assuredly educate people but cannot help at all with
>a value system to live by. Much of traditional African education is 
>"values" education - teaching a child what it means to be a member
>of their society.

Isn't this in essence the problem: seeing a situation where the West
"educates" people? If the West is a resource others can draw on rather
than an imposition it becomes valuable. This is why colonialism was wrong.
If the people of Africa, India, Africa etc. had been exposed to the West
as potential consumers / exchangers of ideas there would have been no
problem. As soon as you impose yourself on someone no matter how valuable
your ideas are you are being destructive.

That said, there are situations like gross violation of human rights
(Nazi Germany for example) where intervention is right. What is missing
is a mechanism to ensure the right balance. As long as some countries are
much weaker and poorer than others, no such balance can exist. The real
problem to be addressed then is redistribution of wealth between north
and south. We cannot expect the rich countries to do this so those of us
in the affected region should get our act together. Some parts
of the far east have managed to achieve very rapid economic growth from
a very poor base so it should be possible.
--
Philip Machanick
Computer Science Dept, Univ of the Witwatersrand, 2050 Wits, South Africa
philip@concave.cs.wits.ac.za  phone: 27 (11) 716-3759  fax: 339-7965
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: nrswart@phonon.uwaterloo.ca (Nicholas R. Swart)
Subject: Re: So Idi Amin *was* a Windsor!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:40:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.063646.26642@psg.com> chris@psg.com (Chris Pinkham) writes:
>> You hit the nail on the head. There was racism in African by the evil British
>> empire and its royal family.
>
>We suspected all along that Idi Amin was closely related to Elizabeth II.
>Makala may have unearthed a vital piece of information strengthening
>Amin's claim to be king of Scotland. If only Shakespeare were alive
>to record this.

Beautiful stuff. Beautiful! Haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.
This is of course way over Makala's head, but no surprise there.

Nicholas