HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MOSELECW@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (chris moseley)
Subject: quotes
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:09:28 GMT+1200
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Ok, this is an interesting quote I found the other day in

               Marilyn Frye, `The Politics of Reality'.

      "Womens negative attitudes toward any group of men are not
                   really as consequential as mens"
                               [pg 145]

Note the phrasing carefully, this woman is quite careful to say what
she means. The context was talking about homophobia and racism. I
found it interesting, as one of the two the most powerfully/
effectively biphobic groups are Lesbians (guess which the other is).
As usual for her, she is trying to deny or minimise any real power
women may have, in order to emphasis their `victim' status.

To me, it is an example of fallacy number one: if you are oppressed,
then you cannot oppress others. The weaker form of this is the "I'm
oppressed, so I have no power, so any oppression I do has less effect
than [educated white middle class males]". Interesting that in the
case of feminists this often comes out sounding like "but I'm only a
woman, what I do has no meaning/ value/ effect". It does not, however,
apply to the main oppressing group targetted by <whoever>. Examples
are white women-->racism; gay men-->sexism.

Her chapter on her own racism (as a white woman) was very interesting,
especially if you read it looking for clues as to how she would like
men to behave in feminism. Basically she cannot provide anything
positive, except `do what they tell you, listen' for white women
dealing with coloured women. Think about doing that as a male with
feminists (or women in general), perhaps.

*love* & *hugs*
  ____MOZ___                         (moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz)
 /\  _______\  Feminism is described in a fund-raising letter by U.S.
 \ \ \____  /   evangelist Pat Robertson as "a socialist, anti-family
  \ \ \/ / /  political movement that encourages women to leave their
   \ \/ / /       husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft,
    \  / /                   destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
     \/_/
quoted by Michael Kesterton in "The Globe And Mail", Toronto, 26-8-92
From: stafford@msus1.msus.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: where is the ground
Date: 5 Sep 92 00:45:51 -0600
Organization: Minnesota State University System


When so many conflicts arise concerning the bonding or compatibility of
men and women, I've got to ask: is there not already a bonding among
all humankind which already exists albeit obscured by convention?  And
by contrast, assuming that such a premise is impractical in everyday
contemporary life, then why we should expect compatibility to exist at
all?
 
A popular, perhaps poetic, assumption seems to be that men and women
have some 'natural' affinity and another seems to derive from a
'necessary' affinity.  Two assumptions _typically_ represent the range
of arguments: on the one hand, the naturalists assume that the
differences evince an imperative that bonding that will yield
_congruence_ and the other assumes a difference which has been unfairly
imposed and must be _defeated_.

In our tiny lifetimes we tend to move toward challenges and the two
mentioned above seem worthy.  Where, if anyone dares, would you draw
the line?  Where does the poetry of everyday life separate from the
political?  Where do we come together?


Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: The word "sexist" (WAS: Sexist studies...) 
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 20:37:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <AWERLING.92Sep13122555@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <qnwn!mj.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>-   In article <1992Sep12.030901.9193@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> 
>-   >Jewish studies anti-Gentile?
>
>- Take the anti out. If you have been reading my posts you should know
>- that I do not use sexist in it's the form most here seem to prefer,
>- where it is only sexist if the woman is being discriminated against.
>- This is not, as some have alluded, wrong, or dishonest.
>
>Rich, I never said that sexist was only applicable if the woman was
>being discriminated against.  In fact, if I remember right, I was
>trying to get you to explain how the *men* were being discriminated against!

I'd be curious to know why. I do not recall making any such statement.
You seem to be trying to force me into some sterotype, and I cannot figure
out why. I have recieved some mail in response to some of my posts berating me
for things that I did not say or imply (long since ironed out, BTW). 
This form of response has a chord of familiarity.

Is there anything else that I think or believe that for some reason
I am not aware of?
 
>--
>Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
>Transmitting from Planet Yip--where everyone you meet 
>			      is already dead.


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas)
Subject: Re: Statistical "proofs" (Was Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:31:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.140159.15153@linus.mitre.org> cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.145504.9949@uoft02.utoledo.edu> 
>dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>> .the prof didn't walk in on the first day and say...
>> 
>> "no girls allowed"
>> 
>> he came in and said..."75% of you will flunk this class...now open your
>> books to page...."
>
>Different words, but same message.  Every person in the class should have 

Not entirely.  I majored in Astronomy and Physics as an undergrad.
At the first day of the Intro Astronomy course, the professor said
(to a crowd of about 100) something like 'only 3 of you will 
graduate with a B.S. in Astronomy and Physics'.  He was right.

There were 2 women (myself included) and one man.

Julie
#include "std_disclaimer.h"
#include "witty_sig.h"
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Grading papers
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 06:11:53 GMT


My advice would be to keep all ideaological opinions to yourself while
grading papers.  Even though you explicitly stated that it had no effect
on the grade, do you really expect the student to believe that?  *I* sure
wouldn't.

I am reminded of a map-reading course I took in college; due to the school
being small and the ROTC department eager to promote itself, the course was
taught by an army captain.  One of the questions on a quiz was, "Would you
be interested in earning money while still in school and becoming an
officer upon graduation?"  Like your comment, it supposedly had no effect on
the grade.  Like your comment, it had no business being there.

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Playing Games with Words
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:32:48 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

Francis.Gardner@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Francis Gardner) writes:
|   ...
|   When I write up my masters thesis in about 6mths time I will want to make
|   statements like "he can do this and she can do that", but without using he
|   or she.  I personally don't like "s/he", I find it distracting to read.  I
|   do like using "they" as a singular but it is bad grammar and my supervisor
|   wont let me do it.  I could make a declaration stating that "he" should be
|   read as "he/she", but I think these are silly.

Several years ago, I had to write up a manual of operation
for a computer system -- this was in the commercial world,
if it matters -- and as an experiment I used only female
pronouns.  After all, a majority of the human race are
female.  The results were pretty amusing, but I woulnd't
try it if they can get you for doing it.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Shake Your Body
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 21:14:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.162850.1787@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.230905.7814@cco.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>| [long flame of sexuality on TV]
>| 
>| So if you don't like what yo see, don't watch TV!  
>
>You reject all criticism of TV?

No, she(?) rejects all of TV.  :-)


-- 
"TANSTAAFL"     lynch@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
From: ktitus@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Statistical "proofs" (Was Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Date: 15 Sep 92 10:28:25 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Sep15.032101.25742@cco.caltech.edu>, peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
> dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> 
>>like i said, i would
>>love a bunch of fabulous babes to hang around with at work. then after
>>work we could all go out and get to know one another on a more social
>>level.
> 
> Ah, the real reason women avoid going into engineering!  To avoid
> people like this.
> 
>>most of the engineers i know are geeks with the personality of a moldy
>>mop.
> 

If you were smart, you wouldn't jump to such conclusions based upon one
humorous comment.  Obvioulsy, no one would state such a comment seriously on
alt.feminism. He did it to just irk you guys...and it worked. LIGHTEN UP!!! How
do I know this?? Because I'm his girlfriend, comments like this are made in
jest. Don has been the MOST thoughtful man I've ever gone out with, and I place
my standards high. I deserve the best.  I should have given an engineer a
chance earlier. Better late than never.

p.s. and most important. he gives me a lot of good lovin' (LIGHTEN UP!!)


Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: The word "sexist" (WAS: Sexist studies...) 
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 13:45:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep12.030901.9193@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>In article <nnvn6-=.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <AWERLING.92Sep10230919@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>>>If you wanted to merely say that you find Women's Studies to be
>>>exclusionary, you might have considered using less-loaded words than
>>>"sexist."
>>
>>And you might have chosen other words than "dishonest" and "neglectful".
>>But you did not.
>
>I'm curious, Payne.  Do you consider African-American studies racist?

The lines are drawn along racial lines. Curiously, American history would
not be, as there is no race of Americans. Consider, would WASP American
Histrory be considered racist? I think it would. But to say that 
"African-American studies" is racist is not PC. What I see is a labeling
problem. We differerentially label things sexist or not by considering
the sexes of the people involved. 

>Jewish studies anti-Gentile?

Take the anti out. If you have been reading my posts you should know
that I do not use sexist in it's the form most here seem to prefer,
where it is only sexist if the woman is being discriminated against.
This is not, as some have alluded, wrong, or dishonest.

Why the words used to discribe bias have to be so highly biased 
is beyond me. 

And let me repeat, I am not making any value judgements here, I am
just trying to be consistant in labeling these kind of things. I do
not see that "African-American studies" is right or wrong.


Rich

payner@netcom.com


Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Statistical "proofs" (Was Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:18:31 GMT


>|(Gordon Fitch) writes:
>| >The only way we can get more women in engineering and 
>| >"engineering" is to figure out why they aren't there already.

>sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
>| Why?  I don't see the connection.  Suppose we make some change,
>| without knowing why there aren't more women in engineering.  There is
>| no reason to believe that such a change *couldn't* get more women into
>| engineering (there is likewise no reason to believe that it *would*,
>| but your claim is that a random change *can't* work).

(Gordon Fitch) writes:

>No connection?
>
>I generally think of intentional behavior as being benefited
>by investigation and forethought, but I concede that one might
>bring about a desirable change by accident.  Is that the way
>you do other things you want to get done?

If you go over to soc.singles, you'll find that nobody there knows how
to get a partner, yet many people are trying, and some are succeeding.

You said "the *only* way" (emphasis mine).  I claim that trying
something reasonable without complete understanding may be more
effective (because you can start decades or centuries earlier) than
insisting on complete understanding before choosing an action.

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Sep8.212553.5902@gtephx.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:50:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.212553.5902@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:

- IE: "A man's home is his castle" denotes the male gender, 
- But "A person's home is his castle" does not denote gender 
- (for the intellectually impaired: the term person is non-gender therfore
- the pronoun referring to "person" is also non-gender.)
 
Intellectually-impaired?  Feeling superior today?

- and "A person's home is their castle" is incorrect grammar
      
Yes, but oftentimes grammar is changed with the social tide.

- "A person's home is his/her castle" detracts from the meaning (is verbose)

I agree.  Your example, however, being a common phrase (cliche'),
makes your point a bit loaded, but I do agree. 

- "A person's home is her castle" is sexists as "her" is a *solely* female
- pronoun.

Why is "her" solely female and "his" is not?

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Choice for men
Date: 12 Sep 1992 22:45:05 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zabriskie.berkeley.edu

zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:

>  I don't know what the answer is if there is an "accident", though;
>both parties being reasonably careful, and the woman gets pregnant.  It
>seems somewhat unfair to hit the man up then, if he doesn't want to have
>the kid (perhaps he should be required to pay for 1/2 of typical
>abortion fees, no more)... maybe this is where the government should
>jump in.

It may be somewhat unfair to "hit up the man" in this instance,
but it's even less fair to hit up the taxpayers... as long as
either biological parent has the financial means, regardless
of circumstance, the government shouldn't have to cough up
anything.  Attach their paychecks if necessary...  IMO of course.

Steve
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: kbiesel@unislc.uucp (Karen Biesel)
Subject: One woman in engineering
Summary: Women in engineering
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:07:57 GMT
Keywords: engineering

I went through the Computer Science corriculum 12 years ago.  I got my
BSCS.  At that time there were 3 in my graduating class. Two women and one
man.

I believe I got my first job because I was a woman.  The company (if it
matters, E-mail me), was bidding on a gov't project and wanted to show
women on the team.  Great, I got a job.  But I wasn't permitted to go and
install the software (helicopter simulator), because of some company
policy: It wouldn't "look right" if we had male and female peers working
together for a few weeks out of town.

So I quit; got another job.  Eventually, I had to hire another engineer.
I got to experience men, trying so hard not to be sexist, and flailing all
the way.  I was 7 months pregnant.  You should have seen the looks on their
faces, when I waddled out to the lobby to meet them.  (They adjusted)
There aren't many female eng. to begin with, and a pregnant one, in Utah,
doing the interviewing?
(Of course, most women of child-bearing age in Utah are pregnant.)  8-)

I've yet to be on a project where I'm not the only woman.  There are
quite a few female eng. at Unisys, just not on my project.

I don't know why women don't pursue engineering.  I did my 3 semesters of
calculus.  

Karen Biesel
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sweeping Generalizations About Men By Feminists (Was: Feminism & Women's Studies)
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:23:52 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
| > Is Fitch asserting that Dworkin is of no
| > importance? Is Fitch going to claim that
| > he's the "real feminist" and Dworkin isn't?

zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:
|   Dworkin is important, as I said earlier this morning....

I don't agree.  I think Dworkin is important for two sets
of people (especially the intersection thereof), (1) right-
wing social reactionaries, i.e. fascists, who use her to
confuse people who would normally be in oppostion to 
them, and (2) anti-feminists, for whom she is a useful
boogie-man.  On her own, she would command very little
attention, although she might be permitted to clown on
some late-night television talk show.

I'll bet Dworkin has been mentioned a hundred times by
anti-feminists for every time she's been mentioned by
feminists.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Subject: Re: THE PARABLE OF THE CHILD REARING COLLECTIVE
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:31:33 GMT

gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:

>>So what's your point?

>The point is that most women, feminist or not, will not tolerate a 
>woman like Mary even for one minute *if* they had to pay for her
>irresponsibility.  They support her today just because they can
>shift the cost to someone else.

Wait a minute!  


By "someone else" I presume you mean either:

(1)  A man:
Last I checked most *men* were in households that
include women, so when they pay child support that money is lost
to the women and children of their current household too.

-or-

(2)  The taxpayers:
Last I checked, women (including feminists) paid taxes too.  So
aren't they shifting the cost to themselves??

						--  Michal

Xref: sparky alt.feminism:1149 misc.misc:3304
From: bgarfink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (beth diane garfinkel)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,misc.misc
Subject: Re: Names
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:03:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Indiana University

In <1992Sep11.224501.15970@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:

>In a hypothetical posting, Andy Szczepanaawski muses:

>"Why do people here on the net call me Andy and not Szczepanaawski"?

>I dunno Andy, some things will always be mysterious.............

>NOT!

Has anyone read or seen George Bernard Shaw's play _Misalliance?  It has
a character named Lina Szczepanowska, and one of the more hilarious bits
is all the other characters' attempts to pronounce this name:
sh-ch-pa-nov-ska!!!!  So now we all know how to pronounce
Szczepanaawski!

Actually, I temped this summer for an Andy Rykaczewski, and he
encouraged business contacts to use his first name.
							Beth

-- 
"Hold stick near center of its length.  Moisten pointed end in mouth.
Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion."
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Communism
From: moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley)
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:40:04 +1200
Distribution: world
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

was: Re: forward to the past

gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:
> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

> >gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:

> >| Communism is bankrupt; there is not communist state where most people
> >| support it and want to be there.
what ever happened to Cuba? Ok, it's not economically viable, but then
neither would a capitalist state in a communist world be...

> >Small-c communist.  Large-C Communism is bankrupt because it was
> >actually a distorted form of capitalism.
isn't cummunism also a form of capitalism - they both revolve round money
as a means to measure `worth'.

> Is there any experience, or a serious of experiences, that can 
> convince you the communism can't work?  You see, I'm interested 
> in theory only when it can be checked by experiments.

vis: define `success'. Cuba worked for a number of years. Village
democracy worked for generations in ancient Greece. Both failed
really badly when outside conditions changed. Is village democracy
therefore bad? The same thing could be held of the failure of
Brazil to survive as a democratic capitalist state.


*love* & *hugs*
  ____MOZ___
 /\  _______\   (moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz)
 \ \ \____  /             I've been stripped bare and nobody cares
  \ \ \/ / /     all the people I looked up to are no longer there
   \ \/ / /           I've been filled up with useless information
    \  / /                 spewed out by papers and radio stations
     \/_/            I've been waiting for tomorrow all of my life
  excerpted from the album `soulmining', by Matt Johnson (THE THE)
From: dholtsin@nyx.cs.du.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Pro-LIFE feminists???
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 00:00:05 GMT

In article <715763942@lear.cs.duke.edu> 
gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:

>gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>> The theory itself is vacuous, since the issue is not whether
>> abortion is good or bad but whether the state has, or ought
>> to have, the power to prevent it and force childbearing.

> By quite a few feminists the state should have the power to force
> *moral* behavior.  E.g. the FBI should run after dead-beat dads,
> no matter why they don't pay; porno should be censored; affirmative
> action quotas are a great idea; a forced socialism is a good thing.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the group Feminists for Life
supports "forced socialism".  I know they favor child support laws,
private boycotts of pornography vendors, and passage of an abortion-
neutral ERA, but I wouldn't consider that to be "forced socialism".  

>Hillel                                                gazit@cs.duke.edu


Doug Holtsinger

Xref: sparky alt.feminism:1129 soc.men:16402