HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
From: geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 21:23:37   M
Organization: The Equinox Network CHCH NZ (Node SATORI)

rmarsh@waikato.ac.nz writes:

> Like Aaron and Philip I despise social discrimination of any kind. Let's
> discriminate on the important factors, like who can best do the job.

This gets my vote!

| Geoff - Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 (4 Lines)
| Email:  geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz
|         "If I post something lucid, is that satorial eloquence?"
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
From: hugh@fivegl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 06:59:48 GMT
Reply-To: hugh@fivegl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson)
 <jbickers.05jz@templar.actrix.gen.nz> <1992Apr8.104247.12375@comp.vuw.ac.nz>
Organization: Task Management Ltd, Auckland, New Zealand

In article <1992Apr8.104247.12375@comp.vuw.ac.nz> jonathan@tahi.isor.vuw.ac.nz (Jonathan Stone) writes:
>In article <jbickers.05jz@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>
>>    Isn't there a normal phrase for prospective employers to use?
>
>Yes "<insert organisation-name> is an equal opportunity employer"
>is a standard phrase.
      ^^^^^^^^
In NZ at least.

>Remember that the advertisement is for a job in the USA.

Exactly.  Commonly accepted standards differ in different cultures
(the USA qualifies as having its own unique culture, as does NZ).
Offence is simply not warranted in these cases.

-- 
-Hugh Grierson--hugh@fivegl.co.nz----------Go fast or go home----------------
-Task Management Ltd-Auckland-New Zealand-Ph:+64.9.5206109-Fax:+64.9.5206101-
Newsgroups: nz.general
From: jonathan@tahi.isor.vuw.ac.nz (Jonathan Stone)
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
Organization: Institute of Statistics and Operations Research, VUW, Wellington, NZ
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:42:47 GMT

In article <jbickers.05jz@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:

>    What cracked me up about the original post was the phrase "people of
>    color". Isn't there a normal phrase for prospective employers to use?
>    Like: "We are an equal opportunity employer".

Yes "<insert organisation-name> is an equal opportunity employer"
is a standard phrase.  Perhaps the advertisement wanted to indicate
that they are an affirmative-action employer.

Remember that the advertisement is for a job in the USA.  You simply
wouldn't believe the controversy that can arise over the choice of
a phrase to refer to other than white-skinned persons. At least, I didn't.
From: banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz (Philip R. Banks)
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:26:25 +1200
Reply-To: banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: My Arc.

geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan) writes:

> jonhunt@olympus.equinox.gen.nz (Jon Hunt) writes:
> 
> > In article <cP6giB2w164w@satori.equinox.gen.nz> geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (
> > >John.Hine@comp.vuw.ac.nz (John Hine) writes:

   Just as an aside people John Hine *didn't* write the statement - he was
forwarding a job notice he had received. We wouldn't want anyone giving John
funny looks now would we? :-)

> > >> Women and people of color are strongly encouraged to apply.
> > >
> > >So they're sexist _and_ racist. What an outfit!
> > 
> > Only if you find such encouragement intimidating.
> 
> On the contrary....
> 
> Try this on for size:
> 
> White males are strongly encouraged to apply.
> 
> Doesn't sound so good when you say it like that does it?

   Exactly right. Discrimination in any form is just as ugly.

    Philip

--
Philip R. Banks                                                         @@@@@/|
Syntax: mail <banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz|banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz> @@@@/#|
                                                                        @@@/##|
What price the crown of a king on his throne,                           @@/---|
When you're chained in the dark all alone?  ---A.P.P.                   @/    |
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
From: geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 19:24:58   M
Organization: The Equinox Network CHCH NZ (Node SATORI)

jonhunt@olympus.equinox.gen.nz (Jon Hunt) writes:

> An employer calls for job applicants.  To all intents and purposes,
> applicant X is able to fulfill the job description as well as applicant Y.
> However, applicant X is (for the sake of the example) a white male, while
> applicant Y is a member of a societal group which is under-represented in
> the profession in which the job opportunity has arisen (again, for the sake
> of the example, substitute a suitable gender, race, age, sexual
> orientation, religious conviction, etc.).
> 
> Who should get the job?
> 
> (a) The first applicant?
> (b) Toss a coin?
> (c) Practise 'positive discrimination' by giving the job to the member of
>     the under-represented group?
> (d) Choose the candidate based on unwritten preferences such as 'old-boy
>     networks' or other biases.
> 
> Over time, one would expect option (c) to generate a workplace that matches
> the society in which the organisation operates.  And it would guard against
> *any* group becoming under-represented in the long term.

*If* you end up with a short list of equally suited people one or more
of whom is a member of your favourite minority. How often does this
happen in the real world?

Plus you are still exerting bias. In effect you're saying "we're
currently biased against group X, so we'll fix that by being biased
against group Y". Wouldn't it be better all round to be completely
unbiased? [gasp! what a concept!]

| Geoff - Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 (4 Lines)
| Email:  geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz
|         "If I post something lucid, is that satorial eloquence?"
From: Pat Cain <patrick@sideways.welly.gen.nz>
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re:  machine phone calls
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 92 20:18:30 +1200
Organization: Sideways Bulletin Board, Lower Hutt, New Zealand

sbiddle@aviate.cavebbs.gen.nz (Steve Biddle) writes:

> >item completely. There should be a way for Telecom to make them take your
> >number off their list or publish a list of numbers that have complained
> >and prohibit them from calling at any time.
> 
> The problem is that as far as I'm aware of, lists don't exist. They are simpl
> randomly selected. It would be illegal for a company to copy numbers out of
> the phone book for their own use.

There was an article in the Evening Post a few nights ago about how
Consumer were investigating More FM etc.  There should be a way to
pass your number to Telecom and all companies that use machines to
dial numbers not be allowed to dial those numbers.  If they can
programme a machine to dial certain numbers then they should also
be able to prevent it from dialling certain numbers.

BTW, More FM have a telephone line for "suggestions", I wonder if
they have had many complaints about their dialler.  I reckon that
telemarketing by machine will become widespread in NZ within a year.
Newsgroups: nz.general
From: paul@actrix.gen.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:38:47 GMT

In article <98PXiB1w164w@satori.equinox.gen.nz> geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan) writes:
> The depth of my reaction simply shows that I very strongly resent some
> politically correct yuppie coming out with a trite attempt to make me
> look like some sort of cowering redneck.

If that was how it appeared, then I'm sorry I conveyed that
impression.  I *was* attacking your position, but have no intention
of attacking you.  I respect the fact that our viewpoints differ.
 
> > I was implying we are both in a similar state, i.e. because we may
> > not necessarily identify ourselves as being part of a recognised
> > minority.  Studies have shown beyond all doubt that such groups are
> > disadvantaged in job terms.
> 
> And you think it's OK to "fix" this by discriminating against someone
> else? You can't discriminate for someone without discriminating against
> someone else. You have to give everyone an equal chance.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  The ``system'' is heavily
weighted in favour of white, middle-class males.  I'm suggesting
that there needs to be POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION to help redress the
imbalance.  Of course ability counts too, and I'm not suggesting
that a person of limited ability be given a job ahead of someone
with skills, training and experience.  What I am suggesting is that
where two candidates present with similar experience, Affirmative
Action Policy should dictate that the minority should get the job.
If that means you or I miss out, then so be it.  Statistically,
we're much more likely to get the job, or another one like it.

> If you think doing something bad is OK because it's for a "politically
> correct" cause you need to have a serious re-think. This is the same
> sort of logic that ends up saying "it's OK to kill people for a good
> cause [they're only commies anyway]", "the end justifies the means" etc etc.
 
I think you're missing the point.  I'm not trying to be P.C.
Personally, I think that can go too far.  I am saying that the
``system'' is weighted heavily against woman and non-whites, and
that my sense of fairness suggests that positive action needs to be
taken to redress the imbalance.

> No employer has *any* right to take account of race or gender in filling
> a vacancy. Remember the ones you discriminate against are people too,
> even if they have had the misfortune to be born into a minority which
> doesn't merit your fawnings.

Oh puh-lease!  Fawnings indeed.  I have never fawned.  I do value
justice however.  And I believe that employers DO have the right to
engage in affirmative action programs, under the terms of the UN
Declaration on Human rights, of which this country is a signatory.

-- 
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.gen.nz
Newsgroups: cs.general,nz.general
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
From: geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 00:10:31   M
Organization: The Equinox Network CHCH NZ (Node SATORI)

paul@actrix.gen.nz (Paul Gillingwater) writes:

> Now I'm convinced it was fear.  The depth of your reaction shows
> deep seated resentment at those who might compete with you in a job
> situation, and who might have an ``unfair advantage''.  :-)

Then get your head out of your rear end and read what I'm saying! How
*dare* you presume to have *any* knowledge of my motivations and "deep
seated resentment" in my psyche.

The depth of my reaction simply shows that I very strongly resent some
politically correct yuppie coming out with a trite attempt to make me
look like some sort of cowering redneck.

My aversion to racism and sexism is no more based on "fear" and "deep
seated resentment" than yours. I just don't buy the "politically
correct" line. If you can't argue the point instead of making personal
attacks then pull your head in!
 
> I was implying we are both in a similar state, i.e. because we may
> not necessarily identify ourselves as being part of a recognised
> minority.  Studies have shown beyond all doubt that such groups are
> disadvantaged in job terms.

And you think it's OK to "fix" this by discriminating against someone
else? You can't discriminate for someone without discriminating against
someone else. You have to give everyone an equal chance.

If you think doing something bad is OK because it's for a "politically
correct" cause you need to have a serious re-think. This is the same
sort of logic that ends up saying "it's OK to kill people for a good
cause [they're only commies anyway]", "the end justifies the means" etc etc.

No employer has *any* right to take account of race or gender in filling
a vacancy. Remember the ones you discriminate against are people too,
even if they have had the misfortune to be born into a minority which
doesn't merit your fawnings.

| Geoff - Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 (4 Lines)
| Email:  geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz
|         "If I post something lucid, is that satorial eloquence?"
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: Fwd'd Re: Job Opportunity
From: hugh@fivegl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 01:03:01 GMT
Reply-To: hugh@fivegl.co.nz (Hugh Grierson)
 <cP6giB2w164w@satori.equinox.gen.nz> <1992Apr2.111119.23330@actrix.gen.nz> 
 <1992Apr3.091526.7228@waikato.ac.nz> <jbickers.05jz@templar.actrix.gen.nz>
Organization: Task Management Ltd, Auckland, New Zealand

In article <jbickers.05jz@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>
>    What cracked me up about the original post was the phrase "people of
>    color". Isn't there a normal phrase for prospective employers to use?
>    Like: "We are an equal opportunity employer".
>

Who was it (a black American) who said "White people are coloured too, if
they weren't then they'd be transparent."

In the right context "people of colour" isn't offensive at all...

-- 
-Hugh Grierson--hugh@fivegl.co.nz----------Go fast or go home----------------
-Task Management Ltd-Auckland-New Zealand-Ph:+64.9.5206109-Fax:+64.9.5206101-
Newsgroups: nz.general,wgtn.chat,nz.comp,vuw.general
From: tfarmer@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Farmer)
Subject: Re: modem and software for an Amiga 500
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1992 02:59:29 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <199204070143.AA27864@kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz> andy@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Andy Bond) writes:
>I am trying to find out about using terminal software on an Amiga 500.
>Is there (free?) software available to provide terminal emulation over
>a serial line to some generic 2400 baud modem?  

Send me an address and I'll send you a disk.

Do you know if this school uses hard disks?

-- 
Thomas Farmer      | tfarmer@cavebbs.gen.nz | I need an apartment!
Datamark Intl Ltd  | tfarmer@datamark.co.nz | +64-4-233-8186 (work)
Technical Writer & Dos M/Wrangler           | Love is a warm beagle.
Newsgroups: fido.nz.all.sysop,demi-monde.all.sysop,nz.general
Subject: Re: NZ BBS List!
From: geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz (Geoff McCaughan)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 19:35:16   M
Organization: The Equinox Network CHCH NZ (Node SATORI)

richard@nacjack.gen.nz (Richard Vowles) writes:

> Nothing from Chch yet. Anyone log into Planet Melmac?

What? You've got someone set up as the local list.collector and the only
way you know how to get in contact is to ask if anyone logs in there? No
wonder the list is so out of date.

| Geoff - Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 (4 Lines)
| Email:  geoff@satori.equinox.gen.nz
|         "If I post something lucid, is that satorial eloquence?"
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: getting off mailing lists
From: mdh@gaya.gp.co.nz (Martin D. Hunt)
Date: 11 Apr 92 10:36:04 +1200
Organization: Wellington, New Zealand

In article <0Bs1iB1w165w@tornado.welly.gen.nz>, turgon@tornado.welly.gen.nz (Paul Thompson) writes:
> mdh@gaya.gp.co.nz (Martin D. Hunt) writes:
> 
>>  
>>  Now, see if you can guess the name of the company which sold my name, and 
>>  win a free daily phone call from a machine operated by a radio station :-)
> 
> 
> At a guess/wide stab in the dark etc etc, The World Record Club. Ever 
> since I got of their mailing list (by not buying enough stuff every six 
> months) the letters from Time have stopped. It's been a quiet peaceful 
> year without a single letter from Time.
> 
> Cheers, Paul.
> P.s Was I right?

Right on! It looks as if other people have had the same experience as I
have. I still buy things from World Record Club, so I don't want to come
off their mailing list. But, when I joined (about 8 years ago), I am
reasonably certain that they had a policy of not selling their mailing 
lists. They also only required members to buy something every 12 months. I 
first became aware of this being reduced to every 6 months when I got a 
letter from them saying that I had better buy something from them soon.

The evidence that World Record Club are the culprits:

They frequently enclose a brochure from Time-Life with their catalogues.
My name and address appears in exactly the same format on the Time-Life 
stuff as with World Record Club.

On the whole, World Record Club offers a good service. Many of the CDs 
can't be easily obtained elsewhere, and they are often a lot cheaper than 
in the shops.

I also notice that World Record Club is setting up another record club 
called Music Express. This is one of these outfits where they send you a CD 
unless you say you don't want it. The postal address and phone number are 
different, but the street address and fax number are the same. The 
brochure, which fell out of the Listener, has the same look as the World 
Record Club advertising. Why set up two CD outfits operating from the same 
place?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin D. Hunt	The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone.
Wellington	Who else would express such opinions?
New Zealand	USEnet at home : martinh@gaya.gp.co.nz
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky nz.general:460 wgtn.chat:22
Newsgroups: nz.general,wgtn.chat
Subject: Teleworking Report
From: rich@tosh.wcc.govt.nz (Richard Naylor )
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 20:17:28 GMT
Organization: City Net -  Wellington City Council's Community Computer Network

20:13:16
 6-Apr-1992
 
I've just finished reading a comprehensive report on Teleworking
developments in NZ. Its very encouraging and offers suggested
ways in which Teleworking can be developed further.

I expect the report is available widely.

Contact DSIR Social Services on 04 384-4919 or 03-351-6019

The report is called,

                      Telework in New Zealand
            The Present Situation and Future Prospects
            
Unfortunately, that part of DSIR isn't on the network :-(


--
rich@tosh.wcc.govt.nz (Richard Naylor )

Xref: sparky nz.general:512 nz.wanted:33 soc.net-people:549
Newsgroups: nz.general,nz.wanted,soc.net-people
Subject: Re: Can Someone Help Get A Message to a NZ'er for Me?
From: jonc@status.gen.nz (Jon Clarke)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 92 10:43:33 GMT
Organization: Z*NET International News Gateway in Auckland New Zealand

shedevil@vix.com (Anne P. Mitchell) writes:

> Jon,
> 
> The name of the book is _Stones for Ibarra_ , why? :-)
> 
> -- 
 Well believe it or not from the name (which I am not familiar with)
 of the book it may have helped me help you find the chap for you
 (now does that sound Irish or what? [grin]).

 But it didn't....

                           _
 Jon Clarke              o( )    The Z*NET Global News Gateway in New Zealand
 Voice:(+64)25-962638   /  /\       jonc@status.gen.nz or FIDO 3/772:105
Newsgroups: nz.general
From: lesley@cavebbs.gen.nz (Lesley Walker)
Subject: Re: getting off mailing lists
Organization: The Cave MegaBBS, Public Access Usenet, Wellington, NZ
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 11:21:00 GMT

colin@cavebbs.gen.nz (Colin Osmond) writes:
>
>You could try marking the envelopes "gone no address" or "return to sender" and
>then drop them in the NZ Post.  They might just get the message after a while.

I gather "deceased" works well, although I haven't tried it personally.

-- 
   -=-The Leather Goddess (aka Lesley Walker) -=- Wellington, New Zealand -=-
leather@phobos.cavebbs.gen.nz -=- lesley@cavebbs.gen.nz -=- lesley@actrix.gen.nz
   DoD#258 -=- Yamaha XV1000 -=- Yamaha XS650 -=- Ford Cortina -=- Altos 586
         -=- My bike may be Japanese, but at least it's a V-twin! -=-
Newsgroups: nz.general
From: clear@cavebbs.gen.nz (Charlie Lear)
Subject: Re: getting off mailing lists
Organization: The Cave MegaBBS, Public Access Usenet, Wellington, NZ
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 92 22:10:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.023037.22123@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Ewan.Tempero@comp.vuw.ac.nz writes:
>|> then drop them in the NZ Post.  They might just get the message after a while.
>As someone has already said, this doesn't seem to work. Actually,
>I suspect NZ Post won't return this kind of mail to the sender
>anyway given that they don't pay much postage.

Eh?  Dunno what planet you're on...

With both Freepost and Business Reply Paid, the fee is the correct postage
for the item concerned plus handling of roughly 10%.

E.g. a single response in a standard envelope costs 50c to the receiver.

Both are invoiced by NZ Post prior to delivery.

Obviously sending bricks etc is a waste of time - but almost any small box
of light weight that won't fit through a 4" x 3/4" slot is going to cost
them $3 or so.

The boxes used for packing PC expansion cards are ideal.  You can enclose
all sorts of bumph, with plenty of room for a "Get me off your mailing
list" letter.  Because its in a box, it will be opened separately from the
pile of other mail, and given extra attention.

There's no point in moving to bigger boxes as we have the new "fair" rate
which covers everything up to a set number of kg.

-- 
Charlie "The Bear" Lear | clear@cavebbs.gen.nz | Kawasaki Z750GT  DoD#0221
Fax +64 4 564-5307 | You're not paranoid.  They really ARE out to get you.
The Cave MegaBBS +64 4 5643429 V22b | PO Box 2009, Wellington, New Zealand
From: banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz (Philip R. Banks)
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: getting off mailing lists
Keywords: privacy,junkmail
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:29:51 +1200
Reply-To: banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: My Arc.

Martin.Ehrenstein@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Martin Ehrenstein) writes:

> Anyway how does one stop those phone marketing surveryors, which are a
> real pain because they make you go to your phone at the most inconvenient
> times.

   If they call at certain times of the day then turning on your answer
phone (if you have one) works wonders. Especially if you turn the volume up
and listen to the caller leaving a message so you can catch any important
calls....

    Philip

--
Philip R. Banks                                                         @@@@@/|
Syntax: mail <banks_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz|banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz> @@@@/#|
                                                                        @@@/##|
What price the crown of a king on his throne,                           @@/---|
When you're chained in the dark all alone?  ---A.P.P.                   @/    |
Newsgroups: nz.general
From: liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz (Liam Greenwood)
Newsgroups: wgtn.chat,soc.culture.new-zealand,nz.general
Subject: Re: Seniornet Launched in Wellington
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:44:24 GMT-12
Distribution: world
Organization: It's Home, really...

    What is SeniorNet? Not the functionality (people of age using computer),
what is it based on ie Usenet, proprietry network system, Cray with teletypes
etc. How does it function???
    (Just curious, from the description I'm too young...)
--
****  Liam Greenwood	    * Don't tell my Mother I'm a programmer...   ****
****  Wanganui, N.Z.	    * she thinks I'm a piano player in a brothel ****
		   **** liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz ****					  *
Newsgroups: nz.general
Subject: Re: NZ BBS Listing! Updates WANTED! (was CDUGD!)
From: richard@nacjack.gen.nz (Richard Vowles)
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:33:12 GMT
Organization: Malleus Maleficarum - Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre


>Richard, as compiler of the list would you like something a bit more
>up-to-date for PN?

I'd like to keep it as up to date as is possible. As I haven't had
any info on PN, i'd LOVE to have some updated info!

If anyone has a copy of the ChCh one, i'd like to get a hold of that
as well!

Invercargill? Waikato? BoP? Anywhere else except Wellington and
Auckland would be a bonus!

Richard

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Today we will do lying on the floor. You will lie on the floor. You will
continue to lie on the floor, and if you move a single muscle, I will kill
you." - Alexi Sayle, Didn't you kill my brother?

USENET  : richard@nacjack.gen.nz       The Demi-Monde : 199:310/1
FIDONET : Richard Vowles 3:772/110.0   Amateur Radio  : ZL1UTF
Newsgroups: nz.general