From: olw7845@zeus.tamu.edu (Zeke E. Pez)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: JON the bigot, Steve Giammarco an enlightened one ,(Re: ,,,)
Date: 23 Dec 1992 00:54 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.tamu.edu
Keywords: elf jon rob Mr. Chemistry
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


>Being a gay man, I've discovered that where my rights end, your rights
>begin. I see tolerance as a negotiated point from which both sides can
>coexist. Asking people to polarize one way or the other leads to margin-
>alization of a society (even moreso than today).
> 
>I feel as frustrated as you do when I am "tolerated". But to demand anything
>else and force people to _choose_ is mind control, too. I'd rather educate,
>one person at a time if need be. 

I think this is the first person on this news group to respect another mans
autonomy.  May you extremists like elf, rob, jon, howard black could
learn something from Steve!! I doubt it.

Now for my two cents worth!!
I some article where JON replies in a very closed-minded way to Charles L.
Larue, Jon States the following:

>No, my problem is pointing out to other people how twisted your logic is,
>so that they don't fall into it themselves.

>In a free society, people are allowed to think anything they like, no
>matter how bigotted it is.   What they should not do is to act out their
>bigotted fantasies in a way that impacts other people.

>I don't have to persuade people who are so narrow-minded and determined
>that they are unpersuadable.   I just have to point out to people that
>persecuting minorities in unacceptable.   It's the *behaviour* of bigots
>I care about, not what they think privately.

>I also have to point out that your argument that a minority has to "prove"
>something to bigots, or else accept discrimination without complaint, is 
>simply twisted logic.     

>Nice to see a Subject line that makes sense, for once.

>jon.

I love this JON guy, a true epitome of a "hyper sensitive crybaby" who thinks
that everyone is out to get him!

     But alas, dear JON, I think you have hit the nail on the head (or at least
real close) and did not know it.  Your argument seems at first to be a very
strong and valid (like that facsade of CONSENTING ADULTS) and at first 
glance, I could not agree with you more!!! But then my convictions of the
validity of your argument seems to get blurred and distorted when I
really start to think about its possible ramifications.  

     Unfortunately, your statement is a bit pointed and I would like to 
make it a more applicable to the analogous (but not equivalent, ROB)
issues concerning other minority factions within this great country of ours!

================================================================================
The HETEROSEXUAL says:

No, my problem is pointing out to other people how twisted your logic is,
so that they don't fall into it themselves.

In a free society, people are allowed to think anything they like, no
matter how *HETEROPHOBIC* it is.   What they should not do is to act out their
*HETEROPHOBIC* fantasies in a way that impacts other people.

I don't have to persuade people who are so narrow-minded and determined
that they are unpersuadable.   I just have to point out to people that
persecuting minorities in unacceptable.   It's the *behaviour* of 
*HETEROPHOBES* I care about, not what they think privately.

I also have to point out that your argument that a minority has to "prove"
something to bigots, or else accept discrimination without complaint, is 
simply twisted logic.     

Nice to see a Subject line that makes sense, for once.

ZEKE.
================================================================================

JON, this argument is still o.k. is it not??

The next example:
================================================================================
The BLACK (or NATIVE AMERICAN or LATINO or even a WHITE) man says:

No, my problem is pointing out to other people how twisted your logic is,
so that they don't fall into it themselves.

In a free society, people are allowed to think anything they like, no
matter how *RACIST* it is.   What they should not do is to act out their
*RACIST* fantasies in a way that impacts other people.

I don't have to persuade people who are so narrow-minded and determined
that they are unpersuadable.   I just have to point out to people that
persecuting minorities in unacceptable.   It's the *behaviour* of *RACISTS*
I care about, not what they think privately.

I also have to point out that your argument that a minority has to "prove"
something to *RACISTS*, or else accept discrimination without complaint, is 
simply twisted logic.     

Nice to see a Subject line that makes sense, for once.

ZEKE.
================================================================================
JON, this sounds o.k. to you , right, I hope so I like it!!!

THE NEXT EXAMPLE
================================================================================
The PEDOPHILIAC says:

No, my problem is pointing out to other people how twisted your logic is,
so that they don't fall into it themselves.

In a free society, people are allowed to think anything they like, no
matter how *PEDOPHOBIC* it is.   What they should not do is to act out their
*PEDOPHOBIC* fantasies in a way that impacts other people.

I don't have to persuade people who are so narrow-minded and determined
that they are unpersuadable.   I just have to point out to people that
persecuting minorities in unacceptable.   It's the *behaviour* of *PEDOPHOBES*
I care about, not what they think privately.

I also have to point out that your argument that a minority has to "prove"
something to *PEDOPHOBES*, or else accept discrimination without complaint, is 
simply twisted logic.     

Nice to see a Subject line that makes sense, for once.

ZEKE.
================================================================================
JON, at this point I am starting to wonder about your original argument.
I might have a problem with this one especially since Children cannot consent.
I decided to use a very specific (sarcasm implied) definition of
what "CONSENTING ADULTS" given (not) to me by the PRO HOMO faction.
This definition greatly enhanced myunderstanding of where to draw the line
when knowing the difference between adults and children and knowing what
constitutes consent (again, sarcasm implied)!

THE NEXT AND LAST EXAMPLE:
================================================================================
The NAZI stormtrooper says:

No, my problem is pointing out to other people how twisted your logic is,
so that they don't fall into it themselves.

In a free society, people are allowed to think anything they like, no
matter how *GAY or JEWISH* it is.   What they should not do is to act out their
*GAY or JEWISH* fantasies in a way that impacts other people.

I don't have to persuade people who are so narrow-minded and determined
that they are unpersuadable.   I just have to point out to people that
persecuting minorities in unacceptable.   It's the *behaviour* of *GAYS or JEWS*
I care about, not what they think privately.

I also have to point out that your argument that a minority has to "prove"
something to *GAYS or JEWS*, or else accept discrimination without complaint,
is simply twisted logic.     

Nice to see a Subject line that makes sense, for once.

ZEKE.
================================================================================
I have a real problem with a Nazi saying an analogous (not equivalent, ROB)
statement like this.  Notice how the NAZI says he is concerned about
GAY and JEWISH behaviour, and not what they think privately!

Sounds like, this guy is intolerant of GAYs and JEWs and their behaviour.
Sounds to me this guy might have some latent GAY and JEWish tendancies creating
an environment of hostility towards the GAY and JEWish communities.

But Hey, many experts have concluded that *Gay behaviour* is inhereted so
why should we try and stifle the GAY community.

But Hey, many experts have concluded that *Anti-Gay behaviour* is inhereted so
why should we try and stifle the Anti-GAy community.

I hope that I have shown that the LOGIC used in many arguments on this news
group is purely circular and really has no conclusions in favor of or against
a pro or anti group.

Th logic is of a simple sort, Thesis/Antithesis, Punch/Counter Punch.
So Rob I HAVE SHOWN in this post and many of my others that MUCH of the
PRO HOMO LOGIC is to simple and inadequate for gaining acceptance in today's
society (albeit that most people consider AMERICANS too simple to rise above
this simple logic).  

I have never stated how I feel about the HOMOsexual lifestyle, I simply took 
the ANTITHESIS to the logic and played the devil's advocate!!

In short dear sirs, I will bash you not because you are PRO HOMO
but because your arguments are ignorant and are a curse to your own cause
(at least on this highly intelligent and open-minded news group).

In short dear sirs, I will bash you not because you are PRO HOMO
but because your arguments violate at least two of three basic
and fundamental philosophical MAXIMS (again, I limit my accusation to this
news group). 

1) the UNIVERSAL APPLICATION of many arguments on this group fail!
2) the PRESERVATION of AUTONOMY of many arguments on the group fail!
3) I have forgotten the third MAXIM but it is out there and this group
   probably fuck it up too.


I will not prove why this is so,but I refer you to any freshman level
PHILOSOPHY text and it will (or at least should) describe these three MAXIMS.


If you do not accept these as truths, then you are ignorant and I will bash
you. If you continually attack and distort what I have tried to say, I will
bash you. If you cannot realize what my arguments convey, then you are not
aware of your AUTONOMY and I will bash you until you recognized it and use it
as a weapon for your cause, not as the IDIOCY that you are now displaying for
many peoples amusement (including mine).

Now, JON, ROB, MR. CHEMISTRY, and ELF, pick me to pieces, use your benign
arguments to show that I am wrong. Show the other readers of this group that
you cannot forward your cause until you realize what I have said is true.
Come on, attack me show everyone how much of a fucking idiot you can make of
your self.

Come on, Come on ...

By the way, I have had only one request for my convictions about HOMOSEXUALITY.
And I will answer him/her with the utmost honesty. I think he/she will be
some what surprised.


|-----------------------------------------------|
|ZEKE                                           |
|olw7845@VENUS.TAMU.EDU                         |
|                                               |
|PRO-NOTHING, ANTI-NOTHING, as far as you know! |
|-----------------------------------------------|


Newsgroups: soc.motss