HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty)
Organization: IBM PSP Palo Alto, Ca.
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 00:14:46 GMT

In  <1992Oct2.165423.7304@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>  mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com (Mark Sawyer) writes:
> In article <1992Oct1.004511.3545@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
> >My life is based on my Higher Power too.  But if saying the Lord's
> >Prayer keeps even one person away from *A, I feel that it should
> >not be said.
>
> The relevant A.A. Traditions as I see it are:
>
>     2. "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority --
>         a loving God as He may express Himself in our group
>         conscience.  Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do
>         not govern.
>
>     4. "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting
>         other groups or A.A. as a whole."
>
> There is nothing written or implied anywhere regarding what prayers
> may or may not be said at A.A. meetings.  It is left up to each
> groups "group conscience".

Bzzzzzt!   What about:

(preamble) "*A is not allied with any sect, denomination...."

The Lord's Prayer is a *SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN* prayer.
I can assure you that when it is said, the Christian religion is being
observed, whether or not people choose to be in denial about it.

Moreover, when a group of people observes a religion (by saying one of its
prayers), I can assure you that there *is* an implicit negative spin on
*not* joining in / *not* saying it (even if no one intends it that way).
Thus, the religion observed is implicitly endorsed.  So what about:

      6.   "An *A group ought never endorse...or lend the *A name to any
            ...outside enterprise..."

I'm not sure I would go as far as Enigma (quoted above) in banning this
prayer.  There are many specialized groups within *A.  I think it might be
reasonable to have a group conscience decide to specialize a group for
Christians, in which case, I couldn't argue with them saying LP.  The point
is, *this would be advertised up front* (in the group title and preamble --
*because* they are specialized) so that I, and others like me, can more
easily avoid it and don't have to feel like program principles (as well as
personal boundaries) are being violated.

So I would not go as far as Enigma, but, I will add that I do think her
view is reasonable based on traditions 1 and 5.

> Maybe you have already done this but ...
>
> If it bothers you that a group recites the Lord's Prayer as part of
> the meeting format, join the group and make your feelings known at
> the next group business meeting.  If you become an active
> participant in the "group process", maybe you can effect a change.

An excellent suggestion, Mark.  I just disagreed with the earlier part of
your post.

Jeff
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Yipes!
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:19:03 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

My little postings seem to have generated a situation beyond my control.  For
one, I had not thought they would spark any debate or antagonism between
readers of this group.

I also had not expected the huge amount of mail I am receiving from various
thoughtful people.  To these folks - I may not have time to reply to all of
my mail; I hope this is okay.

But I do appreciate the fact that there are so many people out there who care,
and I am suprised that there are so many readers of this group!

Thanks - Mark

Newsgroups: alt.recovery,rec.arts.books
From: bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson)
Subject: Re: Wendy Kaminer's book
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:01:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep19.113751.25674@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sdemitri@nyx.cs.du.edu (Suzanne Lucia Demitrio) writes:
>
>Anyone read Wendy Kaminer's recently-published *I'm Dysfunctional,
>You're Dysfunctional*?  It's a critique of the self-help/recovery/

  I'm Disfunctional/Your Disfunctional? You have got to be kidding!
This is straight out of Saturday Night Live. You know, this is not
a flame, but as I type this I'm thinking that there are people in
this group that will probably be offended by this comment. And I'm
also thinking that alot of recovering people could stand to
lighten up a little.
From: rnt@druwa.ATT.COM (Bob Thomas)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:30:15 GMT

in article <1992Sep28.024535.13602@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com>, carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty) says:
>> Mark,
>>
>> If you find the atmosphere unacceptable by all means go
>> elsewhere.  If there isn't an elsewhere, create one.  That's
> 
> Bob, Mark made the point that people in early sobriety are generally
> hardly in a position to do this.  However, for those in advanced recovery,
> this can be a good suggestion.

It's been said that all that's needed to start a new meeting is a
resentment and a coffee pot.  I am not interested in starting a
new fellowship for people like Mark because:

  a) there are enough people coming to AA who need help, and don't
     mind talking about God, to keep me busy

  b) I am not anxious to abandon a way of life that has
     been so good to me.

This is not to say that such a fellowship isn't needed.
Judging from the number of postings by people dissatisfied
with AA, it might be a good idea for those folks to get
together and come up with an alternative program or to get
an involved with an existing alternative. 

I have compassion for Mark's plight having faced the same
dilemma when I was new.  Unlike Mark, after some
deliberation I decided I had nothing to lose by abandoning
my atheistic outlook and by becoming willing to find God.
For me, that was part of the price of recovering.  It has
yielded dividends beyond anything I could have imagined at
the time I decided to pay.

Bob
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Re: Step Ten
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 18:33:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Oct1.234748.5810@netcom.com> dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins) writes:
>10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
>promptly admitted it.
>
>Gee, whose personal inventory do I get to take?   ;-)

Take mine if you wish.  Make sure you have a few Gigabytes handy... :)

Mark

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: rmy@pyuxf.uucp (Robert Yaeger)
Subject: Re: powerlessness vs rational control (Re: alternative to AA)
Organization: bcr.
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 13:33:26 GMT



you know, I actually know a social smoker,......
and someone else who is a social drinker,......
and well, it is just amazing, to me, that there are those whose bodies
don't go crazy after ingesting these toxins..  I know, for myself, if I take
one drink, or have one cigeratte, that my response will be out
of control.  That is why I take full responsibility
through a regime of personal discipline, for what I
do with my body/mind.  Right now I'm adapting to a regime
of diet and exercise, etc., that will help my body 
purify itself from these toxins, which get stored all over the
body and take months to get rid of; and while in the body have 
lingering effects! One of the key things I've learned from AA
is the need for me to change, and it most certainly hasn't
been easy.


-Bob


Organization: Hardware Maintenance, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Date: Thu,  1 Oct 1992 10:51:54 -0400 
From: Dave McClory <dm0f+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: second step

Step 2 
"Came to belive that a power grater than our self could restore us to sanity"

What it was like:

Life in earley sobrity was spooky. Things would come and go my wife returned,
I lost my job my car and I thought my mind. I just could not belive
anything could get better. No sleep verry littel rest. I went to over
120 meetings in 90 days. Things just seemed to get worse. I did the deal
meetings/sponser/home group. When I would I would ask. The answers from
honest people saved my ass.
They came like this never, who knows, just dont drink ect. Pissed me off
I'll tell ya. this really pissed me off.

What happend:

    3 days with out booz in St. Francis hospitle crying despaired I ask
for help
I was alone when I did this. That night/morning somthing happend that I
do not question or try to explaine away. I met my HP as I under stand
it. The desire to drink/use was gone and has never returned. A mass of
enegery, light  with intelegence at a frequency beond anything my mind
could comprehend or explaine.
I ask the 10,000,000 questions and got all the answers. I forgot all but
1. Can this happen to/for anyone? Yes. How? This is how for one instent
in time I was selfless I was sorry for shit I dident do. I had no
earthly thoughts only that I was ready to die I no longer cared. Every
plan every thing I touched had turend to shit. I told my hp I am sorry
please let me die. No not yet. So I belived and
still do. I at this point was not eavin close to saine. Far from sainthood I
shortly left treatment.


What it is like today:

    I am still nutty-er than a snickers bar. But some what sainer. I
have been given a reprive from drinking a day at a time and I have to
ask for this in the morning say thanks at night. I think my sanity looks
like this I will not take my self so seris as to belive that if I do not
get what I think I want when I want it the world is screwed up. I am
starting to live a happy fast exiciting life. Grate job good frinds GOD
in my life. I know down inside that old-milwakie
will not make it better. I get's better by it self in HP's time not Dave's

Thanks for reading this.
Please let me know how you work this step.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Howard Black)
Subject: Re: Forest for the trees
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 12:26:22 GMT
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

In article <Sep26.071450.60994@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:
>
>Yet now I read this group and it seems that the majority of the postings are
>people arguing over what is the 'correct way' to achieve and maintain 
>sobriety.  I read the postings and gain very little new perspective.  Often
>it seems to me that this folks are just taking advantage of this group to 
>unleash their egos, to demand that their view on life is sacred.  I really 
>don't see the value of this!

    There *is* no value in it.  I have, to this point, stayed out of the
useless arguing about the *right* way to maintain sobriety; I intend to
stay out of it.  Why?  Because I don't care what others' opinions of my
program are and I feel no egotistical urge to defend it.  I am really
amazed at the *A folks in this group who get so defensive when someone
posts rational questions or even challenges to their program.  This is
"live and let live"??!!

>On the other hand, I am drunk now, and I guess that makes my opinions useless.

    Not at all...yours is one of the most poignant and honest postings I've
seen here recently.

>Sorry for the mindless babbling.  I forget now what I was trying to say.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I wouldn't characterize your post as either.  Find some support from
people who feel right (as it appears you have) and ignore the rest.  People
who keep "defending" their *A program against simple questions, especially
when they are from the "my way is the only way" camp, just Don't Get It.
If they only realized how much like bible-thumping religious fanatics they
sound (particularly when they invoke the Big Book in support of their
views).... 

-- 
   ******************************************************************
     Howard Black                             cfthb@ux1.cts.eiu.edu
     Department of Chemistry                  Eastern Illinois Univ. 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:38:12 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <Sep29.060152.61135@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:
|It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?


Someone recently told me "you procrastinate because it's less painful
than doing the task. As soon as completing the task becomes less
painful than facing the consequences, you'll do the task."

So my question to you would be, "What is drinking less painful than?"

bill coderre
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RR vs. AA, or RR + AA?
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:27:38 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

In article <72896@apple.Apple.COM> bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes:

>Anyway, what the hell is the name of the "small book"? I want to buy

The name of the "small book" is _The Small Book_, by Jack Trimpey.
I've seen the 1992 edition recently in a bookstore.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: daalrutz@violet.uwaterloo.ca ( )
Subject: relapse
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:43:06 GMT


hi -- my SO relapsed last week -- while i was out of town.  i KNOW i
didn't cause it, can't control or cure it, but... sometimes my knowledge
& my feelings aren't real in sync.
right now i'm trying to figure out what is best for deb & to look
after myself.  
i'm thankful i have a strong program myself & also that he's back at
meetings again.  
but i'm angry & scared.  and i needed to let it out -- thanks for 
being there --

deb
From: esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:37:15 GMT

In article <Sep29.060152.61135@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>  
maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:
> It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?

Well, why not?

Carl Jung believed that we drank to approximate a spiritual experience.   
He came to believe that because the only people he'd ever seen recover  
from active alcoholism were those who had an equally satisfying spiritual  
experience from a source other than alcohol.  

Most of us drink to avoid pain.  For me, the pain was caused by spiritual,  
mental, and emotional bankruptcy.  I did not believe that not drinking  
would INCREASE my ability to get through the pain of living, but it did.   
My part was to give it time and do the footwork.
From: dm0f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dave McClory)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Lets Have A Mail Meating
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:40:41 GMT
Organization: Hardware Maintenance, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I'm Dave I am an Acholic
I spell badely and I dont care as long as I the point digs in.


Topic: First step

We admitted we were powerless over Alcohol and our lives have become
unmanagable.


What is was Like: I was so sick in mind body and spirit nothing made any sence
                  and I just wanted to die My wife left she did not want
to          
                  watch I guss. This broke my heart so I thought I have learnt
                  that what broke my heart was my best frind booz was
trying to 
                  KILL me. What was the best frind I ever had had turned on me
                  Just like that eavel women I had married.

What Happend:     Well I just could not kill my self. Booz wasent helping so
                  I quit drinking for EVER and EVER. With in thirty days I was
                  Looking in to mirrior woundering how i got drunk I thought I
                  Quit!!!!!!!! Guss what I took the first drink instent
insinaty
                  I was so scaried I could not kill my self the wife said you 
                  Yes the Bi--h was right I could not stop on my own. So 
                  I called a frind that had told me abought AA I aclled him at
                  3 AM he gave me the phone # for AA I called Someone called me
                  Back took me to my first meeting sugested Re-hab I went. I
                  Had an experaince unblivable experaince. The compulshin to d
                  Drink was removed. 5+ years and Im still sober. not bad for 
                  some one that thought it IMPOSSABLE to stop.

What it like today:


Well wife's . Good Job. Good days Bad days. Life stuff. The thing I find most
baffiling abought recovery is that, I with out fail rime or reasion get
every thing I need when I need it. I at time's am so happy I feel 10
years old !!!
From: dm0f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dave McClory)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RR vs. AA, or RR + AA?
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:10:01 GMT
	<1992Sep28.231939.29902@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
Organization: Hardware Maintenance, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Richard,

I like AA I'm sober becouse I dont drink. I am getting better becouse I
am following a path to recovery.

So I think I missed some of this AA RR stuff.

Has anyone said anything abought not using/drinking in RR as being the
main point ? 

Do we have to surender to the fact that we/ are addicts drunks and some
of our best thinking go us in recovery programs?

Can we be restored to somthing ?
 

    Dave
From: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: THIS NEWSGROUP (BICKERIN
Date: 25 Sep 92 23:03:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 

Hello Phil and All,
     I just tuned in on this conference and thaught I would introduce
myself and throw my 2 cents in as well. I have a few 24's under my belt
so to speak Jan=8yrs. Today is all that counts.
    About the bickering:
I do not understand what the problem is. There are no rules and each to
his own method.
    Many people find Jehova's Witneses annoying or Hari Krisna's.
Yet they are following there own path to there own destiny just as you
are. They are following there program & fellowship by carrying THE
MESSAGE. They are adding credits to there spiritual bank. They are the
vessels of there message as you are of yours. They strenthten there
faith by carrying the message just as you do. What program or fellowship
or doctrine or philosophy or way of life or steps or crede or ect, it
is not important. What is important is there quest. There search for
Balance, or sorenity or sobriety or whatever positive goal they are
after. The methed is irrelivent, the message is always the same.
There is a god and you are not it. The tools we use to reinforce
surrender and acceptance are personal prefferences. Carrying the message
has been a common tool for thousands of years. It is not a requirement
that the person who hears a message accept it. Nor is it expected that
you get all upset over it if he or she does not. What is required is
that you continue to carry the message. To be the vessel of that message
and to back up that message with faith.
    Faith in the english language is a noun.
In the original GREEK it is a verb. An action to be carried out not a
thing to have. Carrying the message in whatever form is an act of faith
and not something to bicker about.
                                                   BAB
                                          
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Subject: Untitled
Originator: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com
Reply-To: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com ()
Organization: TRW Space & Defense
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 22:49:22 GMT


=====Begin post for Adria=====
1) As far as I can tell, there is 1 way to be sober:
    a.  Don't drink
    b.  Alter your behaviour so that your life isn't centered around
        being drunk, drinking, or contsantly thinking of such.
But there are as many different METHODS of doing this as there are
individuals in the world.
2)  There are many ways of controlling drinking:
   a.  limit amount
   b.  limit place
   c.  limit people you drink with
   d.  and many more that I am unaware of
3)  My biology book is all about me.  I'm in there.  It is TRUTH!
   a.  but it is NOT my bible and I will not consider it as such.
I feel that anyone who substitutes one compulsion for another has
sort of missed the point.  AA itself talks of moderation.  NA
preaches moderation.  Both talk about us having to learn how to
undo the *black-or-white* way of thinking so that we can accept
all the ranges of gray.  So what's this crap about a textbook
being considered a bible being a healthy thing to do?  GET
WITH THE PROGRAM!!  And this is strictly AA philosophy so for
all those who advocate the AA book as bible--READ IT AGAIN BEFORE
YOU SPEAK....you seem to be missing the point completely!

Flame and cross-talk this all you like.  I'll just delete your
stuff before reading it.  Taking what is essential and ignoring
the trash as it were.
=====End post for Adria=======
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: OFSA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:34:10 GMT

esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) remarks:


>always confused the hell out of me!  I came into both of my *.A programs  
>an athiest.  I may still be, although I no longer believe that I'm in  
>control (or that I need to be).  I have a higher power, and I don't choose  
>to call it anything.  If someone in a meeting wants to go on at great  
>length putting forth Christian doctrine, I just figure that's what he/she  
>needs to do.  I don't think it has anything to do with me.  I don't  

Precisely. Do what you need to do, say what you need to say. Take what
you want and leave the rest, to quote an AAism. I used to be fairly
active in AA and although I didn't agree with everything I didn't feel
offended. For me, AA was a starting place...I don't think I could have
stayed sober initially without it. But that was it, just a starting
place.

>"live and let live" slogan.
>
>elaine  


good slogan.

Steve

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: AA working in peoples lifes
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:31:59 GMT

Hi everyone,

I would like to share with you a great feeling of gratitude that I experienced
on the 26th. Every year in Sept. the Chicago area has one big open meeting
called the 52 ond All Chicago Open. The first year that I went to it was 2
years ago when I was just three days in treatment. They gathered us all up in
a couple of vans and brought us down to the UIC pavilion and let us loose.
I walked into this statium and could not believe that their were so many
recovering alcoholics in the Chicago area (16,000 that year). Well this was
my first ever AA meeting ( been to one closed NA meeting the night before).  one.
I was moved. I truly felt for the first time that maybe there was hope for 
me. The extra added bonus was that I ran into a old friend of mine that I
used to party with and he all ready had two years in the program.

So this year was the third time I have been to the open. The number of 
recovering people that attend this meeting is growing this year they moved
it to the Rosemont Horizion (which is much bigger than UIC pavilion)
and the aprox head count was 20,000. I don't know about anyone else but
but that is more than enough proof for this alcoholic/addict to see that AA
is working.

Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery