From: Sorokin@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at (Sorokin Zhenya)
Subject: Re: Russian Speakers in Estonia
Organization: Technical University of Vienna
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 14:19:03 GMT

In article <Jan.1.23.09.57.1993.4358@pilot.njin.net> hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>In article <Sorokin.37.725931368@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at> Sorokin@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at (Sorokin Zhenya) writes:
>
>> the possibility of gaining independance. Due to some purely coincidental 
>> factors some of them got it, some not. So, the rights for independence of,
>> say, Armenia, Croatia, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Latvia... (alphabetical 
>> order) are to my mind equal. Situation for balts is simply easier because 
>> of previous recognition.
>
>Does this apply to Chechens and Tatars too or only to white
>Europeans and not to 'asiatics' ?

In principle, yes. It is already the case with Chechens. However, there is a 
question of borders and previous states. What are the borders of Tataria, 
for example? The same refers to the whole North-Caucasus region. Before 
russian occupation there were Osmans there, with short periods of some 
short-living sultanats, which were also occupants to neighbouring peoples. 
Almost every meter of every border is subject to conflicts. Another example 
is Tajikistan, just an artificially created state.

>> respect to law, etc. (I like it!). Mentality of rusians, urkranians, etc. 
>> are much more asiatic in almost all respects (unfortunately). The only 
>> solution is assimilation. Fortunately, russians normally easily 
>
>I guess 'asiatic' does not include Chinese, Japanese, Koreans
>etc. So far no one I know has ever said anything about their
>attitude of non-obeyance of laws. The Confucian ethic stands
>very clearly on the side of law.
>
>I suppose by 'asiatic' you meant some other people. Please
>elaborate on how it is that you view 'asiatics' as being
>much different than law-abiding Germans and other
>fine European folks. Are Arabs and Israelis also a part
>

I didn't say the Germans are fine or superior. I said that I personally like 
it. That's why I like Baltic states and that's why I *do care* about 
peaceful and wealthy development of these countries.

I haven't been in Israel, and I can't judge (although my mother was 
jewish, I was brought up entirely as russian). 

>
>of the non-law-abiding 'asiatic' hordes ?
>
>Who else is included ?
>-- 

Referring to *asiatic* was NOT insulting. My father is a professor for 
Chinese literature (ancient and modern), hence my respect to asiatic culture 
is very high. However, there are big differences in life order in european, 
islamic and far-eastern societies. 

With respect to law-abiding, there is a big difference in understanding  
of laws in western democracy and what I called "asiatic" way of life.
First, do not mix laws and traditions. In the literature, the societies 
you mentioned above are normally called "traditionalist" rather than 
"democratic". 
Second,
in western sense, law is impersonal and written. 
In "asiatic" sense, law is personified by the boss. 
As a result, corruption is considered both immoral and illegal in modern 
western societies, whereas it is simply a part of the way of life (i.e. 
moral) and to some extent even legal in "asiatic" culture. 
To see it quantitatively, just mention what a big class in western countries 
all sorts of lawers are. The same profession is almost absent in "asiatic" 
societies. 

Sometimes the difference is hard to express in words, but you'll easily feel 
it if you make, e.g. a trip from  Northern Germany through Bavaria to 
Austria (like I did). Not just look at churches, but speaking to people and 
living their life at least a week. Although the language is the same, 
history is to big extent common, the difference is drastic. On such axis, 
I'd place Latvians somewhere in Central Germany (no wonder, Latvia was a 
Teuton state), Estonia somewhere in the North, Ukraina somewhere in 
Yugoslavia and Russia closer to Turkey (maybe Greece?).

Once again: this estimation is purely personal and NOT INSULTING.

>mark	
>
>   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
>   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
Sorokin Zhenya
Vienna, Austria.