HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:40:26 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.224842.24474@corax.udac.uu.se>, pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>I have a xerox of an old book printed in 1611 where they still write a" and
>o" as a/o with very small e's on the top.

Fascinating.

>In Swedish handwriting you often
>see something that looks like a tilde (~) instead of the two dots.

I'd say it's more common to see a "bar", i.e. _ (but higher up), than 
something wavy, like a ~, above a or o to make a" ({) or o" (|). (When 
I've corrected exams and lab reports I've sampled a lot of handwriting.) 
I have a feeling that deviations from " (towards ~ or _) is more common
among females than males.

Tomas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: kozen@cs.cornell.edu (Dexter Kozen)
Subject: Re: Accents/Dialect in Tromsoe
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:58:09 GMT

etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>raustein@athena.mit.edu (Yngve Koehler Raustein) writes:

>>In article <jittlov.716031875@gumby.cs.caltech.edu>, jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov) writes:
>> 
>>|> May I ask a question about the Bergen dialect?
>>|> While in Norway, last August, I visited Edvard Grieg's home in
>>|> Troldhaugen.  The girls managing the museum all spoke with a
>>|> very melodious, soft accent - but whenever they said "Ja", it
>>|> was spoken with a sharply inhaled breath.  I've never heard
>>|> inhaled (social) speech anywhere else.  Is this a local 
>>|> speech pattern?

>>I don't know how local it is -- actually I've never thought about it before...
> 
>    This is a Scandinavian phenomenon - Swedes also do it. Different
>    languages have this speech pattern in varying degrees. English, I
>    think, doesn't have it at all. Scandinavian languages have it in the
>    case described above. Other languages, like Vietnamese, use this
>    kind of speech pattern much more than Swedish or Norwegian.

They do it in Aarhus.  What's worse, they deny
it when you call them on it.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: John@boole.uucp (John Ahlstrom)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Organization: Boole & Babbage, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:48:29 GMT

In <72231@apple.Apple.COM> minow@Apple.COM (Martin Minow) writes:


>Regarding the Nordic a-ring character: in typography, the letter is
>generally called "a-ring" -- See its definition in the Unicode and
>ISO-8859 (Latin-1) alphabets.

>As has been already noted, it (along with the letters called a-dieresis
>and o-dieresis) is a proper vowel in the Scandinavian and Finnish languages.
>I.e., the ring is not something pasted over an A to "change" it. Phonemicly,
>it is pronounced like the "oa" in English "boat" and "coal" which, not
>coincidentally, are written b<a-ring>t and k<a-ring>l in Swedish.

>Historically, it evolved from middle-ages writing conventions, where the
>'o' in the 'oa' pair became written above the 'a'.

>Again, note that while a typographer may call a letter "a with ring" or
>"o dieresis", the typographer is not making a linguistic claim: o-dieresis
>functions as a pure vowel in the Nordic languages, as an "umlauting"
>indicator in German, and as a syllable marker in a very few English words
>such as "co<o-dieresis>perate."

>Pedantically yours,


>Martin Minow
>minow@apple.com

One of many postings from English ans Scandinavian speakers that
make me think the English name for the thing is "ring".
All those in favor say "aye"
			
Not nearly the same consensus for a Norwegian name, or a Swedish one.

John  Ahlstrom
From: valtaoja@sara.cc.utu.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Date: 8 Sep 92 08:41:27 GMT
Organization: University of Turku, Finland

In article <1992Sep7.224842.24474@corax.udac.uu.se>, pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
> A": Long: I give up on this one. Someone suggested something like in
>           French 'chaise'. (I don't speak French so I wouldn't know.)
>     Short: Something like Eng. 'carry' maybe?
> 
> O": Long: Something like in Eng. "bird".
>     Short: Don't know. Try pronouncing "bird" with a very short vowel if
>            you can... ;)
> 
> 
> (PS. My guess is that the Finnish and Estonian A" and O" came from Swedish,
>  but I don't know about the other languages where they are used. Their
>  similar appearances may be coincidental in some cases, even if they are
>  used for similar sounds. DS)

Actually, the Finnish A" and O" are our very own ancient sounds, although the
written Finnish language, including the ways different letters were assigned to
different sounds, was of course invented within a Scandinavian culture and
based on Scandinavian models.

The real question is not why we and some other languages have these A"s and
O"s, but why other languages don't. To a quite good approximation, A" is
nothing more exotic than one of the two main ways of pronouncing A in English,
the poor bastards just don't have a proper letter for that sound...

(As in: "Yes I'm BAD! I'm BAD! You know it! You know it!")

Valtaoja

                                                   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ovr@vipunen.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Keywords: Norwegian Alphabet
Reply-To: ovr@vipunen.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:47:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.195212.2614@boole.uucp> John@boole.uucp (John Ahlstrom) writes:
>P.S.  when we ask Swedish friends about the name in Norwegian (the real
>goal of the hunt) and about the name in Swedish, they get very angry.
>They assert that it has no name in Swedish; that it is not like a 
>tilde in Spanish that is separate and has a name, but is like the 
>the bottom bar you add to an F to make it an E, there is nothing you
>add to an F to make an E; there are just two characters that look quite
>similar, neither was derived from the other....

IMNSHO, BS.
] (Aa, \AA) was originally (in Danish, until 1948)) two a's, which, to show
the changed pronunciation (long oh) was replaced with an a with an o above
it. So, } was indeed derived of a.

Should there be a s.c.n FAQ on these cumbersome characters used in Nordic
languages?

>Does it have a name in Swedish? If so, what?

Don't know. However, in Finnish it (the entire character, not the circular
part of it) is called "ruotsalainen oo" (Swedish oh).
-- 
Ott-Vill R___________________        Nyrxfnagreva_xngh wn Xhavaxnna_xngh
ovr@vipunen.hut.fi                           ba erunovyvgbvgnin!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: raustein@athena.mit.edu (Yngve Koehler Raustein)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:00:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.104645.29276@corax.udac.uu.se>, pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
|> 
|> >Sorry.  Swedes like to take credit for that letter, but I read in an 
|> >encyclopedia that it originated in Germany (yes, really!), and got to Sweden 
|> >via Denmark.  It was discarded in both German and Danish (where it 
|> >eventually reappeared), but the Swedes adopted it into their own language.  
|> >Later on, of course, Norway and Denmark also adopted it.
|> 
|> What encyclopedia and what did it say excactly?
|> 

I think it was ``Aschehougs konservasjonsleksikon'' (my parents have a copy 
from around 1970.)  Since I don't have the encyclopedia handy, I cannot
quote the exact text, but I read it only a couple of months ago, and was 
kind of surprised.

Perhaps some Norwegians with access to this encyclopedia can help you out.

Yngve

-- 
Yngve K. Raustein		| ``We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh 
362 Memorial Drive		| Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, 
Cambridge, MA 02139		| flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a 
617-225-7343 			| fondue and garnished with lark's vomit.''
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman)
Subject: Re: Interest rates
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:13:45 GMT

They said on the news that the actions from the swedish Riksbank made the dollar
rise and the german mark fall. I guess it must have been expensive to make that
happen.
--
Sven Wallman, S:t Larsg. 5, 753 11 Uppsala, Sweden, +46 1812 9237
"I think, therefore I'm right."-Hugo Rune
"who's more important to you?
me or your stupid boyfriend?"-lpm@fert2.fe.psu.edu in an email addressed to my
girlfriend
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Summary: Help with Norwegian Alphabet
Keywords: Norwegian Alphabet
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:22:04 GMT
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota

In article <1992Sep7.195212.2614@boole.uucp> John@boole.uucp (John Ahlstrom) writes:



>For about 15 years there has been a scavenger hunt* in Silicon Valley	
>to find the word in Norwegian that is the name for the little circle
>above the A in the character (some character, I don't know then
>name of the character either) that starts the name of Angstrom.

>The hunt was started when Prof Donald Knuth of Stanford could not 
>find the name to include in a book he was writing about type setting.
>It then became an adventure to find out if we could help him discover 
>the name.  Calling the "Norwegian Academy" if such an analog of the 
>French Academy exists, would be too easy.  We have to ask Norwegian
>(or other Scandinavian) friends, look in Norwegian/English dictionaries,
>...

>The name of this little circle still eludes us and apparently many
>others.  A wonderful Unix doc prep system FrameMaker has names
>for tilde, circumflex, cedilla, dieresis, ... (maybe these are all
>English names and these do not have names in their native languages
>either) but calls the little circle Angstrom from the word most
>familiar to English speakers that contains it.

>At one time we thought we had it.  Someone said the name is "volle"
>(which they also said means "little pancake").  We sought confirmation
>and never found it.  Then we found a Danish woman who had immigrated to
>the US and is a librarian in Sunnyvale CA.  She remembered the Danish
>name for the little circle in Danish because it had just recently been
>adopted in Danish--"balle" meaning "bale" (not ball) and speculated that
>it had something to do with "tying together the two AAs that we used
>to use."  "Balle" sounded close to "volle" but we did not count it as
>confirmation.

>More recently a woman of Norwegian ancestry that works with my wife asked
>two visitors from Norway, a father and his sun.  They got into quite a
>fight, one saying "prikke" the other "ringe".

>After 15 years, can anyone help us?


>P.S.  when we ask Swedish friends about the name in Norwegian (the real
>goal of the hunt) and about the name in Swedish, they get very angry.
>They assert that it has no name in Swedish; that it is not like a 
>tilde in Spanish that is separate and has a name, but is like the 
>the bottom bar you add to an F to make it an E, there is nothing you
>add to an F to make an E; there are just two characters that look quite
>similar, neither was derived from the other....

>Does it have a name in Swedish? If so, what?
>(Please do not get angry.  Ignorance is neither malice nor stupidity.)

In elementary school (in Svenskfinland) we were taught to call it }-prick;
in fact all the diactics were called 'prickar'.  Has that usage really 
fallen out of use by now???
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: mats@pluto.dss.com (Mats Liliedahl)
Subject: RE: Interest rates (ala Eriksson)
Organization: Datability, Carlstadt, NJ
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:39:41 GMT


In article <1992Sep9.211532.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>Tomas Eriksson's very extensive analysis of the Finnish-Swedish Disease was
>very interesting. I shall nominate him for the Swede of the Year Award...

I missed this posting - could some kind soul either re-post it, or mail it
to me. Thanks a lot.

Mats
mats@doc.dss.com
From: abraham@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:27:54 GMT
	<1992Sep7.224708.15259@nntp.hut.fi> <1992Sep10.121807.14201@sai.vtt.fi>
Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, Aalborg University


>>>>> On 10 Sep 92 12:18:07 GMT, kimmel@cortex.sai.vtt.fi (Jyrki Kimmel) said:

Jyrki> A rather amusing anecdote to illustrate how confused you can
Jyrki> get with the aa and ring-a:

Jyrki> When we were scouting for our trip in Denmark we found an old
Jyrki> issue of the American Automobile Association Europe travel guide.
Jyrki> They had a section on Aalborg, which they were smart enough to
Jyrki> write with ring-Alborg. In the architecture part, they told
Jyrki> the prospect traveler that the city had a library designed by
Jyrki> the famous Finnish architect, Alvar ring-Alto...

So they were pretty consistent with their errors.

Jyrki> Jyrki

Per, Aalborg (no ring).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg)
Subject: Re: Accents/Dialect in Tromsoe
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:20:40 GMT

raustein@athena.mit.edu (Yngve Koehler Raustein) writes:

>In article <jittlov.716031875@gumby.cs.caltech.edu>, jittlov@gumby.cs.caltech.edu (Mike Jittlov) writes:
> 
>|> May I ask a question about the Bergen dialect?
>|> While in Norway, last August, I visited Edvard Grieg's home in
>|> Troldhaugen.  The girls managing the museum all spoke with a
>|> very melodious, soft accent - but whenever they said "Ja", it
>|> was spoken with a sharply inhaled breath.  I've never heard
>|> inhaled (social) speech anywhere else.  Is this a local 
>|> speech pattern?

>I don't know how local it is -- actually I've never thought about it before...
 
    This is a Scandinavian phenomenon - Swedes also do it. Different
    languages have this speech pattern in varying degrees. English, I
    think, doesn't have it at all. Scandinavian languages have it in the
    case described above. Other languages, like Vietnamese, use this
    kind of speech pattern much more than Swedish or Norwegian.

    Mats Winberg

>Yngve

>-- 
>Yngve K. Raustein		| ``We use choicest juicy chunks of fresh 
>362 Memorial Drive		| Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, 
>Cambridge, MA 02139		| flavoured with sesame seeds whipped into a 
>617-225-7343 			| fondue and garnished with lark's vomit.''
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tom@bim.itc.univie.ac.at (Tom Kovar)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Organization: Inst.of Theor.Chemistry,Univ.of Vienna,Austria
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:00:57 GMT

andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
: In article <HAAVARDF.92Sep8012952@gluon.uio.no>, haavardf@gluon.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng) writes:
: > Thus, the status of the ring is not like that of an accent, but (more)
: > like that of the dot in such characters as `i' and `j'. 
: 
: I agree that this seems like a very good description of the nature of
: the letter.  Nobody would consider an otherwise unaccented lowercase
: 'i' without the dot a valid letter, except for the Turks.  As for
: uppercase, I have sometimes seen the dot used there too, particularly
: in older headline style (I know of an inscription on a building, made
: before 1907, next to my workplace).
: 
  Yes, it is good to remark, that there are (at least) two sorts of those
things you can write above the letter. Generally, many ppl call all of them
accents, but there is a difference btw. an accent and a diacritical sign -
the latter changes the meaning of the letter below itself

								Tom
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ovr@vipunen.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Reply-To: ovr@vipunen.hut.fi (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:20:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.224842.24474@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>A": Long: I give up on this one. Someone suggested something like in
>          French 'chaise'. (I don't speak French so I wouldn't know.)

The a in the American pronunciation of "can't"? (Sorry, that's the Finnish
long {, maybe the a(i) of "fair" in some perverse dialect?)
-- 
Ott-Vill R___________________        Nyrxfnagreva_xngh wn Xhavaxnna_xngh
ovr@vipunen.hut.fi                           ba erunovyvgbvgnin!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley)
Subject: Re: Norwegian alphabet; boole; inhalation
Organization: Dept of English -- IOWA STATE UNIV
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 06:29:52 GMT

Oh, Roger!
  How can I ever thank you for explaining what on earth those women were
doing? It used to drive me nuts hearing that. At first, I thought they were
having some respiratory problems. 

:-)

Susan Bradley
sooz@iastate.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tt@tarzan.jyu.fi (Tapani Tarvainen)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Originator: tt@tarzan.jyu.fi
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla
	<1992Sep8.160511.1976@corax.udac.uu.se>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 09:44:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.160511.1976@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>The Turkish alphabet is different here (and more consistent, in my
>opinion), as it has two different vowels 'i'; one with dot and the
>other without (both letters of course appear in upper- and lowercase).
>I'm afraid even ISO 10646 fails to support them properly...

I'm fairly sure even some less ambitious ISO character set
(probably 8859-n, where n>1) supports Turkish completely, including
the dotless i (treated as a separate character).
--
Tapani Tarvainen    (tarvaine@jyu.fi, tarvainen@finjyu.bitnet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: John@boole.uucp (John Ahlstrom)
Subject: Re: Norwegian Alphabet
Organization: Boole & Babbage, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:45:04 GMT

In <18l353INNjk6@news.aero.org> dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:

>>
>>   For about 15 years there has been a scavenger hunt* in Silicon Valle
>>   to find the word in Norwegian that is the name for the little circle
>>   above the A in the character (some character, I don't know then
>>   name of the character either) that starts the name of Angstrom.
>>
>>To the best of my knowledge, it has no particular name. "The a with a ring
>>over it" is not regarded as a composite character; it is the 29th letter of
>>the Norwegian alphabet. When referring to that particular *part* of the
>>letter, it is called "ringen i }" --- "the ring in }" ( } represents "the 
>>a with a ring over it" ) 
>>
>>Thus, the status of the ring is not like that of an accent, but (more)
>>like that of the dot in such characters as `i' and `j'. 
>>

>I suggest that when people consider questions like "what is the name of
>the letter that's like an A with a little circle on top?" ... or ANY
>question about other countries and cultures, it is helpful to orient
>yourself by asking a similar question about your own country and culture.

>So: for all you native English speakers: What is the name of the letter "A"?

>Does this answer the question?

>Dave Golber

I dont know A but I think I do some others
   B   be
   C   see
   D   dee
   F   ef
   G   gee
   H   aitch
   I   eye
   J   jay
   W   double you
   I think these are names cause they sure aren't pronunciations or spellings
   if they are not names they are at least what the names are called
   ("...the tune's my own invention")
   
   John Ahlstrom:

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.history
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Christening & colonization of the north-east Europe.
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 01:52:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.163826.28347@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.135516.22665@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>>Of course, calling the Teutonic Order as the Waffen-SS of the Middle Ages, is
>>an insult towards the Waffen-SS: _they_ did not succeed in wiping out a whole
>>people, as the Knights succeeded with the Prussians, Frisians and Livonians :(

>       I didn't think the Frisians were totally wiped out, were they?
>Frisian is still spoken on the North Sea fringe (though admittedly by a
>small population) and I can't think of anyone who would speak it but a
>Frisian.

Nor were the Livonians wiped out.  The Soviet census of 1960(?) still showed 
a couple of hundred of them in northernmost Latvia.  Take a look at Atlas 
Narodov Mira, if you can find a copy.

As for the Prussians, the language may have been wiped out, but the people 
persisted.  All those "German" surnames that end in '-ow' are Prussian aren't
they?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Maastricht once more in Denmark?
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:54:23 GMT

qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:

>This morning on the news I heard that Schlueter thought a new
>vote on the Maastricht treaty might be possible in spring 1993.

This seems like a strange kind of democracy: if the poeple gives
the politicians the wrong answer, then they try and try again until
it gives the right answer. Are we living in the 16th century, with
"princes" and "kings" staking their countries for personal glory?
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: yaz@phoenix.oulu.fi (Tuomas K Kaikkonen)
Subject: Re: Emailing Ice Land
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 10:13:07 GMT

In article <mad-celt.715620015@cwis> mad-celt@cwis.unomaha.edu (Andrew Patrick Booth) writes:

>  I have some relatives that just got stationed in Ice Land and was wondering if 
>  there was a way they could send/receive email from the U.S.  Is there some kind
>  of email or internet service they can get access to?

	Greetings!	I decided to post here, because maybe someone else
is looking for this piece of information.  First, the easiest way to get
pointers to finding out about this subject is the nic.ddn.mil's database.
Just telnet nic.ddn.mil  and  do whois blah blah blah.
	Here is what I found about isgate.is  from the nic.ddn.mil:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Whois: isgate.is
Associtaion of Research Networks in Iceland (ISGATE)

   Hostname: ISGATE.IS
   Address: 130.208.165.63
   System: ? running ?

   Coordinator:
      Olafsson, Marius  (MO33)  marius@RHI.HI.IS
      +354 1 694747

   Domain Server

   Record last updated on 27-Jul-90.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Marius could help you in this problem.

	Second, why is it so flaky link to Iceland from Finland ? 
I have been playing one mud there for quite a time now, and sudden deaths
of the link have been the most irritating about the connection.
The average round-trip ping time about 800 ms.

Yours,

--
Tuomas K.Kaikkonen   yaz@phoenix.oulu.fi  Here ,._/\
Taidonkaari 1 E 36   Tel:+358-81-5546081   I __`.  |
SF-90570 OULU        (_/ _  __            Live  /  |
FINLAND               I I-I /_                 |___/




Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic