HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Subject: Remaining in the sewere? WHAT sewer??? (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 14:03:39 GMT

In article <7764@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
(about the resistance to moving alt.folklore.computers out of alt).

>Argh.
>
>All you alt.* diehards are doing is insuring that I won't be able to
>participate.
>
>So be it.
>
>I truly don't understand why you (generic you) are so adamant about wishing to
>remain in the sewer...

Has the thought never occured to you that *we* (generic we) might not
be regarding alt as a sewer? 

Your problem seems to be that your newsadmin regards alt as such a
sewer that he refuses to carry any groups from it. You have my
sympathy, but surely that's *your* problem, not ours? 

>but I'm now convinced that you are not willing to
>rationally consider the situation. I give up.

Oh, *that's* a nice argument! We don't accept your arguments, so we're
not willing to rationally consider the situation. "If you can't beat
'em, flame 'em". 

Grow up.



Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
Dept. of Theoretical Physics    |  \  Z   / q
University of Lund, Sweden      |   >----<           
Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se     |  /      \===== g
Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52          | /e-      \q



Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:29:52 GMT

rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>summary at the top of what items were included in the CFV, then it would
>>be a lot easier to miss.
>Sigh.  Instead of "suspecting it was long" or saying "if there was no
>summary", why not go back and look it up in the archives?

Rich...most terminal lines are 23 lines long. Keeping in mind the headers,
rec.music.synth isn't mentioned until line 21. There are at least two headers
in a news message for an ADVANCED reader, more from a simple one. All you
mention is "alt.*" groups until line 21. It's real easy to miss when you 
consider that. 

>CFV> Introduction: There are several newsgroups in the alt.* hierarchy which
>CFV> are utilized for the discussion of various musical instruments.  The traffic
>CFV> in these groups and the degree of participation from posters to the
>CFV> rec.music.* groups indicate that it might be time to consider shifting
>CFV> these groups to rec.music.makers, creating another group, and renaming
>CFV> an existing group.  Extensive discussion on these topics has resulted
>CFV> in three draft proposals, of which this is the most recent.
>CFV> 
>CFV> Proposal A: Create rec.music.makers.guitar.
>CFV> Charter: "Electric and acoustic guitar techniques and equipment"
>CFV> 
>CFV> Proposal B: Create rec.music.makers.bass.
>CFV> Charter: "Upright bass and bass guitar techniques and equipment"
>CFV> 
>CFV> Proposal C: Create rec.music.makers.guitar.tablature.
>CFV> Charter: "Guitar tablature/chords, associated discussion and requests".
>CFV> 
>CFV> Proposal D: Create rec.music.makers.percussion.
>CFV> Charter: "Percussion (including drums) techniques and equipment"
>CFV> 
>CFV> Proposal E: Rename rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth
>CFV> Charter: "Synthesizers and computer music"  [UNCHANGED FROM CURRENT]
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Bribe (n.) - 1. Substitute for law.
Law   (n.) - 1. Substitute for justice.
From: lerman@seltd.UUCP (Kenneth Lerman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya Moderated
Date: 8 Nov 92 03:06:17 GMT
Reply-To: lerman@seltd.UUCP (Kenneth Lerman)
Organization: Systems Essentials Limited

In article <1992Oct31.205217.5969@samba.oit.unc.edu> Nigel.Allen@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Nigel Allen) writes:
|
|I am afraid that if a vote on soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya were to be
|called tomorrow, the newsgroup would probably lose, since many people who
|do not consider Ahmadiyya to be part of Islam would vote against it.
|
|Now, I think it's wrong for members of the Ahmadiyya movement to be
|punished for calling themselves Moslems. But I think that the proponents
|of the soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya newsgroup should ask themselves how
|much chance the newsgroup would have of passing with the proposed name,
|and whether the chances of it passing would be significantly improved by
|changing the name to soc.religion.ahmadiyya.
| 
|
|Sometimes you have to accept a less-than-ideal newsgroup name because the
|one you want will be objected to by enough people to keep your newsgroup
|from being created.
| 
|Nigel Allen          nigel.allen@bbs.oit.unc.edu

On the other hand, people like me, who would normally not vote on the
matter, will vote in favor of soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya.

Go for it.

Ken


-- 
Kenneth Lerman                  ...!uunet!casey!gaboon!seltd!lerman
Systems Essentials Limited                            (203)426-4430
55 Main Street
Newtown, CT 06470
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Date: 9 Nov 1992 23:32:05 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <BxGL4F.7pq@unix.amherst.edu>, twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> 
> How about sci.logic.fuzzy?

I think this is a good idea since fuzzy logic does go outside the boundaries 
of ai. I also liked the idea of 

	comp.algorithms.fuzzy
	comp.algorithms.genetic
and	comp.algorithms


Either one is fine with me.



-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:58:44 GMT
Organization: negligable

Actually it just seems like the only reason this guy is asking for a
new group is the HE wants to be in charge and rfg.archive already has
a moderator.....			:)

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"186,000 mi/sec.  Not just a good idea, it's the LAW!"

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: More fuel for the music reorg debate
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:30:52 GMT

I quote the Guidelines:

<Any group creation request which follows these guidelines to a
successful result should be honored...except under extraordinary 
circumstances.  The reason these are called guidelines and not absolute 
rules is that it is not possible to predict in advance what "extraordinary 
circumstances" are or how they might arise.>

Any of you people who claim that inflexibility is a must (Mr. Maynard),
please explain this quote.
--------
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

         Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 04:26:17 GMT

killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:

>In <1992Nov9.194855.2802@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>>>>Almost NOBODY reads n.a.n even though I post several places "READ THE
>>>>USENET DOCUMENTATION" which contains copies of all the standard usenet
>>>>docs (including the guidelines). 
>>Admins are people who joyfully grab obscure or unrelated documentation
>>and read it to find relavence. 
>>Users as a general rule abhor such documentation, and avoid it like the
>>plague.
>>While admins develop skills at finding documentation, users develop
>>skills at ignoring documentation and just going for what they need 
>>at the time.
>>SO what we are seeing here is the class struggle of the admin vs the user.

>1) You, as a sysadmin, have posted several messages to the general
>   public in your system stating that there are documentation that
>   every user should know.

Correct.

>2) You then proceed to claim that such documentation is hard to find.

Incorrect. It is not "hard to find", but it is not "easy to find" and it
certainly isn't "easy to read". "Easy to find" for users sometimes means
that they cannot avoid seeing it as they read news. Even then, many just
"bleep" past certain things. 

>3) You even claim that such documentation is obscure and unrelated to
>   readin news.

To the new user...yes. I don't know about your users, but most of the first 
time users I've seen are more interested in how to read a message than
how to create and vote on a newsgroup. 

Emily postnews makes more sense than the guidelines for group creation.
--
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:11:28 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <Bx76wp.C5t@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>First of all, thanks for being civil and constructive.
>
>In article <1992Nov3.235048.12769@snow.geology.wisc.edu> drew@snow.geology.wisc.edu (Drew Novick) writes:
>>In article <Bx5I8x.9M3@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>
>I can also cite from personal experience that others do enjoy reading 
>campaigns that they are not a part of.  It's that simple.  I've seen it

Which appears to be what rec.games.frp.archives is FOR.  Apparently they
even accomodate incomplete campaigns in the form of "chapters" (a term
which I believe you first used to describe the kind of posts you would
expect to put in your group).

>The view on this part of the proposal seems to be, generally, unpopular.
>I would gladly accept any constructive suggestions on how a moderator can
>maintain a level of quality without refusing posting access to those who
>can not compose coherently.

Simple.  He can't.  reiteration: quality has never been a prerequisite
for posting to the usenet :)

>Even if you believe that some of the other proposed elements of .campaign
>can take place in other newsgroups, why not allow them in .campaign? Why

Because the prime tenant of establishing a new group is to show a need.
If these things can be accomplished in existing groups (which it 
appears that they can) then there is no need for a new group!

>propose a newsgroup where part of campaigning can take place, but not
>all parts? There are aspects of .campaign which are not suitable for any
>other newsgroups, 

Yes.  Those aspects which are best taken care of by e-mail, not 
by using newsgroup bandwidth...



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Work away today, think about tomorrow.		|
Never comes the day, for my love and me.	|	-Richard Hartman	
I feel her gently sighing			|	hartman@uLogic.COM
as the evening slips away....			|
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Requiring good subject lines for RFDs (was: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:49:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division

In article <1992Nov10.154153.38644@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

>My position is this:  the vote is over; it seems to have
>been conducted according to present guidelines --- it's
>inappropriate and a dangerous precedent to overturn it.
>
>However, I think the guidelines should be changed.

At the very least, some focused discussion on how the guidelines might
be improved is in order.

>I know that Tim favors the alternative "ignore a
>CFV or RFD for *anything* at your own peril".  But
>I think his approach is burdensome for the casual
>reader of news who would like to ignore *everything*
>except the few threads he/she is following and
>the exception thread whose title immediately catches
>the attention.

As it's been pointed out, there's always news.announce.newgroups for a
low-volume summary of new group proposals in case you skip them in
your own group.  I'm going to add this to the list of newsgroups our
users are automatically subscribed to here, and make it clear what
this group is and why you might not want to unsubscribe from it.

I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea for rn, nn, trn, tin, etc. to
make this the default behavior for new users.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:43:00 GMT

In article <BxACry.BI2@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim  
Pierce) writes:
> The very fact that the CFV was crossposted to rec.music.synth was by
> definition an indication that that group was involved.
> 
Evidence to the contrary has been posted.

> >but expecting that level of knowledge of netnews
> >voting procedures from every interested reader is unrealistic.
> 
> Sure it is.  The result?  Those interested readers who don't bother to
> learn the conventions of netnews will be doomed to fates like this.
> 
What an amazingly condescending attitude. All we're saying is that the  
person that posted the RFD's and CFV's should have taken the time to write  
a subject line that indicated that r.m.s was affected.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 15:16:01 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>In article <2B000760.51BA@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>> >In article <1992Nov9.175405.13641@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
>> >(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>> >> ... it's simply a question of being interested or not.
>> >Interest isn't the only requirement.
>> 
>> Yes, it is.  Or can you show other requirements?

>1. Access to the right people that can answer your questions correctly

They can be found all over the net.

>2. Knowing what questions to ask

How did they make all these groups?
How can I have a say in that process?

>3. A lot of spare time to read a lot of articles that look like they might  
>not interest you (but you never know)

As mentioned elsewhere the amount of CFVs and RFDs that are posted to the
groups you read is very small. So this "A lot of spare time" amounts to
less than 1 minute every forthnight/month/year or so (depending on how
many groups you read).

>3. An eagle eye

Move closer to your terminal or choose a bigger font.

>4. Searching out the meaning of undefined acronyms you may or may not be  
>interested in (remember that RFD and CFV aren't the only two acronyms one  
>runs across - how many are important? How would someone even know what or  
>who to ask?)

As mentioned elsewhere finding out what RFD or CFV means is a matter of 
reading one of each.

>5. Being lucky enough to find out what RFD and CFV mean BEFORE an  
>important issue blows you by

Since you can find out in the very moment the "important issue blows you by"
what RFD and CFV means this is a non-problem.

>6. A desire to read articles about any group that has an interest of yours  
>as a part of its name 

Make that "a desire to read articles posted to your favourite groups".

>7. A desire and ability to pay for the connect time to obtain groups other  
>than your area of interest (not everyone gets a general newsfeed)

Since the CFV is posted to all affected groups that is not a problem.
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 15:21:50 GMT

rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) [that me] writes:

>One of the prominent characteristics of a RFD or a CFV is that their followup
>line points followups at news.groups (*). This means that a group sees very 
>few messages with RFD in the subject line. As an example take my favourite 
>group, rec.sport.soccer, I have seen less than 20 CFVs in that group in the
>past 2 years.

When writing the passage above I intended to append a remark related to the
(*). But I forgot.


(*) In almost every reorganization debate someone complains that the 
discussion is "hidden in news.groups" and that some are trying to
change their group "behind their back". No efficient method has yet
been found to explain the concept of news.groups to these people
(and believe me, I've tried).
 
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   |
From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV: rec.music.reggae
Date: 6 Nov 1992 16:57:29 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu

In article <1992Nov6.152418.858@nosc.mil>, mike@jammin.nosc.mil (mike pawka) writes:
> Call For Votes
> 
> Proposed Newsgroup: rec.music.reggae
> 
Two comments:


1) Was there a RFD for this proposed news group. I honestly do not remember one
in the last few weeks. Please post the dates that the RFD was issued. [If there
was not one, then this CFV is invalid].

2) Was this CFV posted to news.announce.newgroups?. This is also required for
a vote to be valid. If it was, it is not a good idea to post a separate article
prior to the nan version being posted. We have had problems in the past with
temporial distortions in a close vote due to the timing of the various CFV
articles. In any case, until it appears in nan, I do not consider it to be
a valid CFV





-- 
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ijaz@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Tahir Ijaz)
Subject: Re: Re. soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 03:02:19 GMT



It is because of my belief in the Quran and my belief in the Hadith, that I
am an Ahmadi Muslim.`

The narrow-mindedness some people show is unreal.  Who gave you the authority
to declare my faith and beliefs?  Are you God?

Let me note here, that in the past I have been unsuccessful in posting letters
to SRI.  Apparently, my postings do not support the medeival brand of Islam the
moderators of SRI present, and hence are always rejected.

Dr Tahir Ijaz, M.D.
-- 
=============        ======     ============      ==       ========
     ||                ||            ||         //  \\          // 
     ||                ||            //        ========       //
     ||       0      ======     =====        //        \\  ========   M.D.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 06:42:28 GMT

In article <7764@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.021748.19266@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>>The side benefit of this discussion, other than convincing the ravaging
>>hordes of Huns out fot alt.folklore.* blood to leave us alone, is that all
>>this may convince a few syadmins to start picking up alt.folklore.*! 
>>After all, we're demonstrating here that there're at least a few people
>>out there who value those groups enough to either try to swipe them or to
>>defend them to the death! :)
>
>Argh.
>
>All you alt.* diehards are doing is insuring that I won't be able to
>participate.

Stuff and nonsense.  You can read alt.folklore.computers the same way I
do, by telnetting to nyx.cs.du.edu and registering for an account. 
I was reading newsfeeds within fifteen minutes of registering, once I
finally got around to registering.
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:33:18 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>There are users who are complaining and users who stand to lose out over
>this. WHAT ABOUT THEM? 

What about them?  By the fact that they did not participate in the
discussion and vote, they have (in my opinion) waived the right to
overturn the result of that discussion and vote due to the mere fact
of their non-participation.

>Are you also admitting that there is a USENET class system?

There are two classes.  Those who care enough to participate, and those
who wait until things have already happened and then whine.  But there
is no "class system", because these classes are _self_selecting_ and
_open_to_all_.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gdg019@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre)
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: Pig Heaven, Coventry, UK
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:29:13 GMT

In article <BxF788.I7I@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>Trust me, compared to some of the messages I've received, your message was
>about as flamable as a wet asparagus... :)

You obviously haven't used lighter fluid... 8*)

Seriously now... Now that I know what this is all about, what is there to
stop PBEM GM's from typing up their stories on r.g.f.archives the way the
rest of us do? Why do you need a seperate newsgroup?

-- 
                  Ridley McIntyre - Ronin Ironpig
*On a Flowery	     gdg019@cck.coventry.ac.uk          Space Trip!*
		 ---------------------------------
            "I wonder what Freud would make of THAT?" - Perry Hinton
Newsgroups: news.groups