HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: The Mega Test
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:52:00 GMT


>From: The Polymath <hollombe@polymath.tti.com>
>Message-ID: <1992Dec16.184042.23307@ttinews.tti.com>
>
>In article <Dec.13.03.42.10.1992.5242@romulus.rutgers.edu>
> clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>}In article <01GS5NNTYXG29VUY4S@ccfvx3.draper.com>, Kjeld Hvatum writes:
>}
>}> You seem to be insisting that an item must have a provably
>}> correct answer.  If so, you have to throw out a lot of IQ test
>}> items, many of ETS's SAT verbal analogies, etc.
>}
>}Unlike the Mega Test, the SAT may be taken as many times as you
>}wish, and no one was ever excluded from anything due to a single
>}missed question on the SAT.  This makes quite a difference, as I'm
>}sure you'll agree.
>
>More to the point, the SAT is not, and does not claim to be, a test or
>measure of intelligence.

The only thing I'll agree with is that the ETS goes to great lengths to
avoid mentioning IQ in any of their publications relating to the SAT,
especially ones generally available to the public.  Now, if you meant to
say that IQ doesn't measure intelligence either, I might actually agree
with your complete statement.

With its heavy emphasis on verbal reasoning, the verbal SAT correlates
quite well with a number of IQ tests, some of which are entirely verbal
tests.  The technical manual on the SAT even discusses how verbal
reasoning ability is closely associated with measures of basic cognitive
ability.

The NMSQT selection index, with its weighting of 2V+M from the PSAT, is
just about what you'd cook up for an IQ estimator from SAT-like verbal
and math scores.  In fact, IQ was originally supposed to predict
academic success, and the NMSQT selection index is supposed to do just
that too, with a single number, just like IQ.  Incidentally, the PSAT is
another example of where a SAT-like test has a straight cutoff for a
fairly widely recognized honor (National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist
status), and a fairly high cutoff at that (exact cutoff depends on the
state).

The Princeton Review book for the ACT says flat out that the SAT
is an IQ test.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: mega society
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:37:00 GMT


>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>Message-Id: <9212312013.AA23617@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>
>>>Does anyone here know what test is used by the Mega Society? Does anyone
>>>have a sample test, or know where I could get one?
>>
>>The Mega Society accepts the Mega Test and the LAIT.  You can
>>obtain the Mega Test from:
>>
>>   Ronald  K. Hoeflin
>>   PO Box 539
>>   New York,  NY 10101
>
>Do you mean that I could take the test there, or that I could obtain
>a sample of the test?

Send him an SASE and ask for the Mega Test (no charge).  You pay $25
only if you choose to send in your answers to have them scored.

>Also is the test verbal or non-verbal? Since I started studying
>English two years ago....

24 verbal questions, 24 non-verbal.  Only 24 correct answers (out of a
possible 48) gives you an IQ of 150, equivalent to the 99.9th
percentile.
From: bhmd1464@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: IQ Test?
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:33:42 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University



  According to my memory, the formula for computing IQ was something
like   mental age * 10 / physical age.  How is IQ really computed
or determined?  Can it be done accurately for someone my age (23)?

Brian Acosta
From: clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Triple Nine Society
Date: 22 Dec 92 12:47:26 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Are they still in business?  I haven't gotten anything from them
in quite a while.  IMHO their journal is the most interesting one
around.
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618

"S.B., with an I.Q. of 161, failed to complete his course of study,
running away instead with his professor's wife."
H. J. Eysenck, _Know Your Own I.Q._
From: quest@iowegia.uucp (Steve J. Quest)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 16:38:24 CST
Distribution: world
Organization: Iowegia Public Access Usenet/UUCP, Clive IA USA.

Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff Mccaughan) writes:

> Steve J. Quest (quest@iowegia.uucp) wrote:
> >radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:
> 
> >        I stand on my own in this world, but do require the 
> >support of other fellow humans- not deities.  I am an atheist, and 
> >I am in a great minority.
> 
> There do exist places in the world where you might not be in such a
> minority. For example the incidence of organised religion is much lower in
> Europe and Australasia than in America, and is very much in retreat in these
> places.

Geoff,

        I have thought about emigrating to Australia, as they are 
in the beginnings of an industrial / technical revolution there.  
Of course, I will be treated just like emigrants are treated here- 
and would not like that.  This is why I stayed, but I will find 
happiness and I will be with people.  I have joined a group called 
the Jaycee's (Junior Chamber of Commerce) which is filled with all 
types of people- the first line of their creed states 
(paraphrased) that Belief in god gives purpose and meaning to 
life.  So far I have been able to live with this............sq

(and I have been accepted- or so it would appear.....)

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:59:15 GMT

In article <01GSYXPOFNKIADDCAK@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>
>>From: "Hanan M. Herzog" <herzog@ux5.lbl.gov>
>>Message-ID: <1hubbnINN632@overload.lbl.gov>
>>
>>In article <01GSXMV9SKC6ADDCVB@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
>> Hvatum) writes:
>>>
>>>There are many IQ tests designed for adults.  However, for most people,
>>>a reasonable estimate can be made from SAT or GRE scores.
>
>>For whom are SAT or GRE an scores unreasonable estimate of IQ?
>
>Because the SAT and GRE are high-end tests, they'd be almost useless
>in those clinical settings in which IQ tests are commonly used -
>helping to diagnose the severity of mental retardation, etc.
>
>Some school dropouts who can't read can score well on some
>IQ tests, but they wouldn't be able to score much above
>200 on an ETS test.
>
>>Is there a minimum GPA which is a reasonable requirement for the use of
>>SAT score estimation of IQ?
>
>I wouldn't go by GPA because there are too many people who've decided to
>punt all schoolwork, even though they could score well on SATs and IQ
>tests.
>
>>For exmaple, would it be fare to judge the SAT score of someone who
>>performed poorly in high school (and learned little) against the SAT
>>score of an 'A' student for the assesment of IQ?
>
>I don't have an easy answer, partly because there are so many
>different IQ tests.  For IQ tests with a heavy verbal component,
>the IQ and the SAT verbal measure pretty much the same thing.
>For someone who's read little and hasn't been exposed to a
>good vocabulary, s/he'll score better on some of the IQ tests
>than the SAT verbal, for example.
>
>>Will the student with the higher IQ always have higher SAT scores?
>
>Usually, but not always.

>Bottom line:  Be careful when interpreting low scores - there are too
>many reasons for them.  High scores, on the other hand, guarantee at
>least some kind of competence, and are a strong indication of potential.
>Unfortunately, motivation doesn't always accompany high scores.

I disagree with you here. I don't believe that high or low SAT scores
indicate much at all. One of the reasons for this is that the only
thing needed to do well on this test, is to have a large vocabulary.
In addition to this, the questions on SAT have often several correct
answers. In my opinion, LSAT is a little better at measuring
reasoning ability (NOT intelligence) at the time the test is taken.

>I've seen on the net recently:  JFK, 119; Richard Feynman, 125.
>I'd like to what Feynam's circumstances were for that score.  Had
>he shopped for the right test at the right time, I've no doubt
>he could have done a lot better.  Not sure about JFK, though :-)

The answer, I think, is much more simple. IQ tests measure just that:
IQ; a number that has little to do with anything but grades in school and
test taking ability.
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 10:16:00 GMT


>From: "Hanan M. Herzog" <herzog@ux5.lbl.gov>
>Message-ID: <1hubbnINN632@overload.lbl.gov>
>
>In article <01GSXMV9SKC6ADDCVB@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
> Hvatum) writes:
>>
>>There are many IQ tests designed for adults.  However, for most people,
>>a reasonable estimate can be made from SAT or GRE scores.

>For whom are SAT or GRE an scores unreasonable estimate of IQ?

Because the SAT and GRE are high-end tests, they'd be almost useless
in those clinical settings in which IQ tests are commonly used -
helping to diagnose the severity of mental retardation, etc.

Some school dropouts who can't read can score well on some
IQ tests, but they wouldn't be able to score much above
200 on an ETS test.

>Is there a minimum GPA which is a reasonable requirement for the use of
>SAT score estimation of IQ?

I wouldn't go by GPA because there are too many people who've decided to
punt all schoolwork, even though they could score well on SATs and IQ
tests.

>For exmaple, would it be fare to judge the SAT score of someone who
>performed poorly in high school (and learned little) against the SAT
>score of an 'A' student for the assesment of IQ?

I don't have an easy answer, partly because there are so many
different IQ tests.  For IQ tests with a heavy verbal component,
the IQ and the SAT verbal measure pretty much the same thing.
For someone who's read little and hasn't been exposed to a
good vocabulary, s/he'll score better on some of the IQ tests
than the SAT verbal, for example.

>Will the student with the higher IQ always have higher SAT scores?

Usually, but not always.

Bottom line:  Be careful when interpreting low scores - there are too
many reasons for them.  High scores, on the other hand, guarantee at
least some kind of competence, and are a strong indication of potential.
Unfortunately, motivation doesn't always accompany high scores.

IQ's I've seen on the net recently:  JFK, 119; Richard Feynman, 125.
I'd like to what Feynam's circumstances were for that score.  Had
he shopped for the right test at the right time, I've no doubt
he could have done a lot better.  Not sure about JFK, though :-)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: Re: Triple Nine Society
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:55:00 GMT


>From: Dan Diaz <bl275@cleveland.freenet.edu>
>Message-ID: <1h8uu7INNdl8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
>
>So they have a nice journal, but is there any other reason to join?  Why
>does anyone have a need for high IQ societies other than Mensa? Is there
>something I am missing?  Is it perhaps that some people need an extra
>ego boost by joining 999 or 9999 or whatever?...

OK, then, try this:

...they have a nice journal, but is there any other reason to join?  Why
does anyone have a need for high IQ societies other than High Five?  Is
there something I am missing?  Is it perhaps that some people need an
extra ego boost by joining 98 or 99 or whatever?...

High Five's cutoff is the 95th percentile.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: Re: Howard Stern
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:14:00 GMT


>From: "Vance R. Haemmerle" <vance@cco.caltech.edu>
>Message-ID: <1hqmfnINNg8s@gap.caltech.edu>
>
>In article <01GSW3HOEK82ADDCB5@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
> Hvatum) writes:
>>
>>In general, the traditional broadcast spectrum is full.  It may be
>>"fuller" in your part of the country than you think.
>>For example, the fact that your TV doesn't pick up a strong station on
>>every channel is not sufficient to say the spectrum in your area isn't
>>full because, by law, you can't have transmitters on adjacent
>>TV frequencies in the same area (practical TV filters don't have
>>sufficiently sharp frequency drop-offs to reject an adjacent channel).
>>In other words, in any city, almost half of the channels will show
>>nothing but snow with a modest antenna.  There are exceptions because
>>some adjacent channels are not frequency-adjacent.
>>
>
>In Los Angeles there is a Channel 4 (NBC) and Channel 5 (Ind.).  The
>break between low VHF and high VHF is between 6 and 7.  So they are
>in adjacent 6MHz bands and I don't remember any interference problems.

Wrong!  Channels 4 and 5 are not adjacent - there is a 4 MHz gap
between the two, placing those two channels almost as far apart
as a two channel difference usually does.  The allocations are
as follows:

Channel  Frequency band (MHz)
-------  --------------------
   2         54 -  60
   3         60 -  66
   4         66 -  72
   5         76 -  82
   6         82 -  88
   7        174 - 180

So, yes, channels 4 and 5 appear together in a number of areas,
just as they do here in Boston too.

>I think this was a problem with earlier.  Television tuners, but is no
>longer true (i.e. look at cable systems).

Not necessarily a valid comparison.  Cable signals all tend to be of the
same strength.  The biggest problem is when the adjacent signal is
stronger.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:20:23 GMT

In article <92357.125328FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> <FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> writes:
>In article <01GSL9H5I9NMADCKNQ@ccfvx3.draper.com>, skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
>Hvatum) says:
>>
>>>From: larry wink <bbs-phaedrus%jwt.uucp@surname.draper.com>
>>>Message-ID: <DVoJuB1w164w@jwt.UUCP>
>>>
>>>Once full maturity is reached, long term study may well improve on the scores
>>>achieved on tests, but will not, IMHO, result in increased intelligence.
>>
>>I can't argue with you - you've made your statement true by
>>definition.
>
>Well, I just glad that you've _finally_ seen the light. Anything is better than
>wasting time talking about Howard Stern.

Gee, Larry, if you had posted a list of subjects you personally found
interesting, I'm sure none of us would have wandered.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 00:00:42 GMT

In article <BzzF4w.G2E@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> bjd@ece.cmu.edu (Bob Davidson) writes:
>Ken B Kirksey (kkirksey@world.std.com) wrote:
>: >I realize now that like the illusion of love, the illusion of
>: >spirituality is a key part of our humanity, and I revel in it,
>: >but continue to keep touch with reality.
>
>
>As Pauli said of Dirac:
>
>"There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet."

Pauli, that nutty guy!

GM("Not Only Deep, But Macho To Boot")S
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: radler@nord.tostit.ca (Robin Adler-Pope)
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Reply-To: radler@nord.tostit.ca (Robin Adler-Pope)
Organization: Tostit Northern Associates, Calgary, AB
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:31:31 GMT


gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
> >If by "reality" you mean the world as revealed by our senses and studied
> >by science you might want to go back and read Plato and Spinoza.

> You might want to post explicitly what you appear to find
> contradictory in his post and how you interpret their writings.

Plato saw the divine primordial principle as absolutely unmoving and
unchanging; he understood the division between the divine world of
ideas and the nondivine world of sense essentially as a separation
between the changeable reality of this world in time and space
and the eternally unchangeable reality above the heavens.  Spinoza 
believed that God does not live apart from the universe:  God is in 
the world and the world is in God.  The individual self and all finite 
things are not autonomous substances but only modifications of the one 
and only divine substance.

-robin
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: The Mega Test
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:11:00 GMT
Organization: Draper Laboratory


>From: Chris Long <clong@romulus.rutgers.edu>
>Message-ID: <Dec.16.17.29.17.1992.3447@romulus.rutgers.edu>
>
>> That is, they could all be solved quickly if you could write fairly
>> simple programs for an infinitely fast computer.
>
>So could #25 and #26, assuming you define the correct answer in a way
                       --------
But that's the problem.^^^^^^^^

>> Without going into a lot of psychometric mumbo-jumbo, the theory is that
>> the two types of questions measure slightly different things.
>
>But if you're only trying to measure the underlying "g", what difference
>would it make?

Why do you think the SAT uses antonyms as well as analogies to
measure vocabulary?  Why does the Wechsler have 11 different
subtests?  Shouldn't just lots of questions of some desirable
type be best.  Well, in fact, vocabulary is one of the best
single measures, and some IQ tests are entirely vocabulary tests.

But, as you might know, when you have a noisy measure, you can
do better by combining two noisy measurements which aren't
as closely correlated as the components of a single measure.
This is, for example, why professional investment
managers add a little gold to a conservative portfolio of
stocks, bonds, etc., in order to make it even more stable,
as contradictory as that may sound.  Regression analysis,
and more advanced forms of it, like Kalman filtering, implement
this observation to the hilt.

>As far as I can see, the only role very ambiguous questions
>serve is to punish those who think differently.

I think the reasons you sent me for picking the other choices
miss a number of observations about each group of choices.
I'll respond to you further on this via e-mail.
Organization: University(?) of Central Florida
Date: Friday, 25 Dec 1992 10:33:34 EST
From: <FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Membership Decision/Howard Stern/IQ Test Question etc
 <1992Dec24.202239.3072@cbnewse.cb.att.com>

>In article <various ones now&then@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,                        m
>(gilbert.m.stewart) says:

[lots of things that makes it interesting to read the newsgroup]

>GMS

Happy Holidays, Gilbert.  Live long and prosper.  See you in the New Year.

 --Larry Wink
 Internet: fdmwink@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu <or> ljw@pro-magic.oau.org
 Bitnet: fdmwink@ucf1vm     Usenet: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP     GEnie: l.wink
      "Beware all enterprises that require new clothes." - Thoreau
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 11:31:00 GMT


>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>Message-ID: <1992Dec31.205915.23494@julian.uwo.ca>
>
>In article <01GSYXPOFNKIADDCAK@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
> Hvatum) writes:
>>Bottom line:  Be careful when interpreting low scores - there are too
>>many reasons for them.  High scores, on the other hand, guarantee at
>>least some kind of competence, and are a strong indication of potential.
>>Unfortunately, motivation doesn't always accompany high scores.
>
>I disagree with you here. I don't believe that high or low SAT scores
>indicate much at all. One of the reasons for this is that the only
>thing needed to do well on this test, is to have a large vocabulary.

And vocabulary is one of the best single indicators of intelligence,
according to a number of studies.  Some IQ tests are 100% vocabulary
tests, including some of the tests Terman used in his famous
longitudinal IQ study.  One frequently cited reason is that a person's
vocabulary is an indirect measure of the ability to learn new meanings
in context.

Antonyms and word analogies make up only 53% of the verbal SAT; the rest
is made up of sentence completions and reading comprehension.  Here are
the 15 stems from the antonym section of an old SAT: FRET, DISHEARTEN,
LUXURIANT, HINDRANCE, INANIMATE, ANONYMOUS, ATYPICAL, CONCEIT, RANT,
WOODEN, ACQUIESCE, ADROIT, MUNIFICENT, UNDERSTATE, VIRULENT.  It's a
common myth, especially among poorly prepared high school students, that
SAT vocabulary words are mostly obscure relics from dusty, unabridged
dictionaries.  That's absolutely not true, as the above list clearly
shows.  A student scoring around 350 on the verbal SAT would probably
have chosen the correct antonyms for only about 4 of the above 15 words
(approximately the national high school average).  Put that person in an
advanced college course with students who had no trouble with 14 out of
the 15 words (about 750 verbal SAT level) and I think it's likely he'd
have a bit of trouble.  I suppose you'd say, Eric, that it wouldn't make
much difference?  And keep in mind that this vast score difference would
also necessarily indicate a huge disparity in ability on the sentence
completion and reading comprehension sections.

If you meant to say that differences between scores like 650 and 580
don't mean much, I'd agree with you.  But no difference between 340 and
710?  Sorry, I disagree.

>In addition to this, the questions on SAT have often several correct
>answers.

Often?  Absolutely not.  I included an example of an ambiguous
item from the verbal SAT a while ago to show that you sometimes
can't get an 800, no matter how "smart" you are.  But such items
are relatively rare.  They certainly aren't common enough to
cause the kind of unreliability you seem to be suggesting.

>In my opinion, LSAT is a little better at measuring
>reasoning ability (NOT intelligence) at the time the test is taken.

You've got me interested - I'll have to take a look at it.
From: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Membership Decision
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:59:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins) says:
>
>To be fair, I must say up front that I've never attended any MENSA
>gatherings, local or otherwise.  My work and travel schedules have made
>
>Finally, my leaving is based more on apathy than anything else.  I just

Enough said.  Garbage in, garbage out.
-- 
Dizzy Dan         ddiaz@cwru.bitnet      bl275@cleveland.freenet.edu
Department of Molecular Genetics - Albert Einstein College of Medicine
"My opinions are my own, and they should be yours as well"
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Membership Decision
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:22:39 GMT

In article <92359.083656FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> <FDMWINK@UCF1VM.BITNET> writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.235909.8439@cbnewse.cb.att.com>, gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com
>(gilbert.m.stewart) says:
>>
>>As for those political cartoons, let's just say that I found them,
>>um, less than side-splitting.
>
>Gee, Gilbert, if you had only submitted a list of subjects you personally found
>side-splitting, I'm sure they would have done a better job.
>
> --Larry Wink
> Internet: fdmwink@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu or ljw@pro-magic.oau.org
> Bitnet: fdmwink@ucf1vm     Usenet: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP     GEnie: l.wink


Damn straight, Larry.  And because of that, I'm hereby taking full
blame for how boring I and the orignal poster found them.

Thanks for you support, buddy!

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa