HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 02:54:56 GMT
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>>darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:
: In the grand tradition of the Pagan Movie thread, I thought I'd ask people
: for their favorite works of fiction with pagan themes.<<


Well, there is the classic "THE GOLDEN ASS" or "The Transformations of
Lucius in a wonderful translation by Robert Graves. It is written by
Apuleius in Latin. Apuleius *was* a priest of Isis (Isiac) and was convicted
on the charges of witchcraft (in the negative) which he exhonirated himself.
The Golden Ass is a wonderful romp through ancient times as seen from the
eyes of an ass. It is the best source for the tale of Cupid and Psyche and
some of its stories were borrowed by Chaucer in his Decameron Nights.

"SATYRICON" written by Petronius  is incomplete but still a facinating tale.
Fellini's film version is still the best filming of the book. However the
hero in the book seems to be Gito the little boy than his lover Encolpius or
his admirer Achyltus whom all three travel together. Note: in ancient rome,
anal intercourse was nicknamed leap frog or horse play and in Fellini's film
version during the scene of Trimalchius' feast where Trimalchius practices
his right as pederast Fellini tastefully introduced a game between him and
some litle boys of horse back playing, leaving most audiences dumbfounded at
the reaction he gets from his wife (one of the guests) who in the meantime
necking with her female lover.

Then there is VIKRAM AND THE VAMPIRE also called a tale of Hindu Devilry.
Adapted by Sir Richard F. Burton edited by his wife Isabel. Recently there
has been a reissue in paperback. Originally printed in 1870 from Indian
originals. It is really a wonderful book and it includes several stories one
of which re-entitled "The transposed heads" was made into an opera by Peggy
Van Glin Hicks? (I don't remember the correct spelling of her name right
now.)

Of course there is the first novel ever written or so it seems by its
antiquity; "THE EPIC OF GILGAMESH" of which there are serveral translations
from existing tablets, bothe from Babylon and Asshurbanipal's library in the
ruins of Nineveh. Unfortunately the homosexual sequences or scenes between
Gilgamesh and Enkidu are watered down quite a lot by modern translators and
in fact one translation reduces the whole affair as simple close
"friendship". In the epic we find one of the oldest tales about the flood
that is suggested by Sumeriologists today as preceeding biblical writing. In
fact it has been suggested that this was the original from which the Hebrews
borrowed the deluge tradition from.

Then again there is Mary Renault's boks on ancient greece: The King must
die, The bull from the sea, The Mask of apollo, and The last of the wine all
of which have "pagan themes.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Hitler as Occultist (was: Re: Numbers)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 21:53:07 GMT

>"Indeed, those who bend over backwards to show that Hitler was
>not a pagan are making exactly the same mistake as those who try
>to bruch aside the Inquisition.
>
>Paul Ciszek"

  Excuse me, but ...

  In what way is discussing Hitler's ties to Christianity an
attempt to show that Hitler was not a pagan ???

  Or is this another one of those "if you're not <<it>> the way I
am, then you aren't <<it>> at all or I'm not <<it>> at all, and
I know that I'm <<it>>, so you have to be what I think you are,
not what you say you are" threads ?

  Just wondering.

  Really.

  No flame-fest intended.

  No smiley faces either, though.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Killing and Burning
Keywords: witches, pagans, violence
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 17:57:40 GMT

People were executing "witches" long before Christianity.  Europeans were
doing a fine job of killing each other back when they were all pagan.
Not that much has changed.  Fair enough?
--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Survey
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:43:55 GMT

In article <36099@zephyr.ens.tek.com> davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes:
>In article <Bt8JGq.76D@news.larc.nasa.gov> kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov ( Scott Dorsey) writes:
>>In article <16tkkmINN9gu@iraul1.ira.uka.de> stoesser@i31s21.ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser) writes:
>>>When you burn your computer, where will the bits go?
>>
>>To the DEC Field Service office, of course!
>
>  I here I always thought that they just went into a big bit bucket. 

Same thing.

--John
-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||            -- My Bloody Valentine
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: something to cheer up those of us in straitened circumstances
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:58:38 GMT

I was paging through Walker's _Encyclopedia_ again -- still on the
lookout for that comment about the flame "foul enough for a witch to
burn in" -- when I ran into something.

Evidently some yahoo radio evangelist a while back was selling pieces of
cloth as "healing cloths," after he had "laid his hands on them" and
"passed on the healing power God gave him four years ago," or some such
nonsense.  I read this, stopped and thought for a bit, and realized that
if I had even a smidgen less conscience than I have now, I could be
living in the lap of luxury by mining the only inexhaustible resource in
the universe -- human gullibility.

Next time you have to sweat to make that rent payment, just think of the
dough you could be swimming in if you had the balls and easily-
reassured conscience that this dude had.

Just a thort,
Janis the Cynic but Not Cynical Enough to Make Money Off It

Janis Cortese           ||  Pienso con sueno parecido no volvera mas,  
U. C. Irvine            ||  Y me pintaba las manos y la cara azul.  
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu ||  Y de promiso el viento rapido me llevo,  
========================||  Y me echa volar en el cielo infinito!
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: MZB & _Witch Hill_ (was Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:14:14 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin


Donal writes:
>I hate to bring this one up, and it is NOT in my list of favorite books...
>Has anyone here read MZB's "Witch Hill" and what did you think of it.
>I still think that it was ghost written and MZB was forced somehow to put
>her name on it... it just isn't her style.

Nope, unfortunately it is all her.  There is an interview with MZB in
the Ostara 1991 issue of Green Egg in which she says that she knows of
people who do the sort of thing that was done in Witch Hill and they
call themselves witches (or Wiccans; that part I don't remember and I
don't want to slander her) and who use the deity name Cernunnos, et
cetera.

To me, it sounds exactly like what I perceived her style to be --
mean, grouchy, vindictive and small-minded.  But that's neither here
nor there, really.

Any road, check out the interview if you can.  There's no ghostwriting
in _Witch Hill_.

(P.S. Donal, I tried to answer your message last month but it bounced.
Hopefully I'll see you at CMA...)

>Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: MZB & _Witch Hill_ (was Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:18:46 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
> Donal writes:
> >I hate to bring this one up, and it is NOT in my list of favorite books...
> >Has anyone here read MZB's "Witch Hill" and what did you think of it.
> >I still think that it was ghost written and MZB was forced somehow to put
> >her name on it... it just isn't her style.
> 
> Nope, unfortunately it is all her.  There is an interview with MZB in
> the Ostara 1991 issue of Green Egg in which she says that she knows of
> people who do the sort of thing that was done in Witch Hill and they
> call themselves witches (or Wiccans; that part I don't remember and I
> don't want to slander her) and who use the deity name Cernunnos, et
> cetera.

She does have sort of a one line disclaimer in the book, where she kinda
offhandedly mentions that what these folk are doing is NOT Wicca (yes,
she uses the name correctly) but that it IS witchcraft. I think it is
rediculous, and slightly obscene. Reading that book made me physically 
ill. I do not think I will ever buy another MZB book, and I have been a
Darkover fan since day one... :(

> To me, it sounds exactly like what I perceived her style to be --
> mean, grouchy, vindictive and small-minded.  But that's neither here
> nor there, really.
> 
> Any road, check out the interview if you can.  There's no ghostwriting
> in _Witch Hill_.
> 
> (P.S. Donal, I tried to answer your message last month but it bounced.
> Hopefully I'll see you at CMA...)

I might not make it to Samhain, as our small one (Matthew) is due on Sept
21, and the first month is gonna be pretty hectic, but we will try to be
there. On the bounce, I have just gotten my real address. If 
donal@brewich.hou.tx.us doesnt work, try 
donal%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us or my work address, 
bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us... try sending me a test message!

Blessed Be!


--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: paganism a religion.. <rant warning>
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:42:04 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <YeV2lLC00UhWM2=8lW@andrew.cmu.edu>, sj1s+@andrew.cmu.edu
(Sherrianne M. Johnson) writes:

>   Hmm.  I was not aware that all pagans, to be pagans, must believe in
>a god/goddess, or deity.  I do not think that this is a fair judgement. 
>I do not fit into any religious system, whether it be Christian, Wiccan,
>or Moslem.  I feel a very spiritual tie with the earth, and nature, and
>am very ready to follow that and try to become rather a healer (both of
>the earth and of humankind).  I enjoy rituals, herbalism, and various
>other activities which are often thought of as "pagan", or so I thought.

I know a few pagans who don't beleive in a deity in my neighborhood... You
aren't alone...
    
>    You say that you feel threatened on this newsgroup of showing your
>faith and discussing your deities.  If the move that you would make
>(making this ONLY a religious newsgroup) is implemented, then I will
>feel the same way.  I may be able to observe, and read posts as I have
>been, but it seems that I would be the one slammed if I dared to post
>from my "atheist" point of view.  This doesn't seem fair to me.
>
>Am I wrong?  Are there other people who identify as pagans out there who
>feel as I do?  Or should I stop posting right now?

There are other "athiest pagans" out there (you're quotes), but I feel that the
person who brought this subject up also has a valid point, in that there is
some sort of shared beleif that we shouldn't always have to defend. 
Personally, I've wanted to discuss the mechanics of magic, but I'm not always
able to quote n+1 sources for info.  But the thought pattern is still there. 
Yet the few times that I've even mentioned working magic on the practical
level, my mailbox tends to flood (admittently, that's an exxageration) with
comments on (to use the last one I received) "Have you considered that people
get over the flu naturally?"  Of cource I have!  But when you make mysic passes
(tm) over said person and there is a direct result in their body temprature you
tend to add 2 and 2 together.

I get tired of defending my practices here when all I loof for is some good
conversation!

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: house consecrations, in a fashion
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 02:15:12 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> Howzabout you wear the inner child on the outside for a little while,
> and consecrate it that way.  How would your inner child consecrate
> something?  What would she say?  What was important to you when you got
> a dollhouse when you were little?  Since you have a miniperson with you,
> ask her opinion.  Better yet, WATCH Katy and see what she does with the
> toys and things she finds most wonderful.  Maybe she can even take part
> in it.

well, i didn't have a dollhouse when i was a kid, so that question doesn't
apply, and katy and i are/were VERY different children.  my mom was letting em
play with her china animal collection whne i was three, and katy breaks even
thinmgs of solid lumber...

but doing the ritual AS the child is a very good idea.  the bedroom has a
hammock instead of a bed, btw...  B)

                                              -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
      No visible means of support          Silence \      / Action
      and you have not seen nothing yet.      =     \    /    =
      Everything's come together.           Death    \  /    Life
                                                      \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: briansp@css.itd.umich.edu (Brian Spolarich)
Subject: Re: Tarot: What's the blank card for?
Organization: University of Michigan ITD Consulting and Support Services
 
    I've been interpreting the blank card in a slightly different way.
    I've found it a useful interpretation, and an elegant meditative tool.
   
    Blessed be!
      -brian
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:30:59 GMT

________________________________________________________________________
Brian W. Spolarich			"I never understand what it is
1029 Vaughn St.				about all of these vegetarians
Ann Arbor, MI 48104			trying to make vegetables taste 
(313) 747-8473				like meat.  I mean, do priests
Internet: brian.spolarich@umich.edu	buy a lot of blow-up dolls?"
Bitnet:  USERW292@UMICHUM			-Kyle Baker
-- 
Brian W. Spolarich		"It is by Will alone that I set		
briansp@umich.edu		 my Mind in motion."
P.O 4296 			
Ann Arbor, MI  48106
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: annak@microsoft.com (Anna Korra'ti)
Subject: Re: this Virgin Mary appearance thang
Date: 21 Aug 92 19:40:43 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1992Aug14.100416.1498@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu (BORCO) writes:
>Seems that some "supernatural" stuff is accepted as long as it DOES look
>like Mary or Jesus or Elvis.

     Heh. My lifemate once observed that were our culture existing in less
modern times, Elvis Presley would be well on his way to getting deified by now.
<grin>

                        Unlurking briefly,
                          - Sh'k'anna.

-- 
annak@microsoft.com ** Angela Sh'k'anna Korra'ti
No opinion expressed above originates from Microsoft Corporation.
From: popec@fennec.sccsi.com (William C. Barwell)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: BVMs
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 16:38:01 CST
Organization: Fennec Information Systems, Houston, Texas USA

Here we have Jesus-in-the-screen-door sightings.  In heavily Catholic
countries we have Blessed Virgin Mary sightings.  In Southeast Asia they 
see Buddha.  You see what your social milieu primes you to see.

The sage points at the moon, and the fool looks at his finger.
           Ancient Chinese Proverb

----------------
William C. Barwell [popec@fennec.sccsi.com]  //  Pope Charles
Pope Of the Church Of The SubGenius for the Golden Triangle Area
Laughing at everything in the Universe...including the concept of 
laughing at everything in the Universe!
-----------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: I waste my time (was: Hitler as Occultist (was: Numbers))
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 15:50:53 GMT

>"Well, this turned out rather less brief than I'd hoped.  I'll
>try not to post again on the subject; I'm sure you all have
>better things to read.
>
>-- John Michael Greer"

  Actually, John, your letter is one of the better things I've
read.

  In the midst of what was starting to look like another holy
war, you wrote eloquently and tactfully, and expressed yourself
very well.

  I'd been trying to figure out how to respond to this thread
without sounding like I was trying to bash someone, but your
post speaks so well that, well, I don't know, it just seems like
adding anything would be like painting victorian wood work brown.

  Please don't appologise for the length, it was far more concise
and direct than I know I've been in some of my ramblings.

  Please tell us more about the platform opposing P/pagans ...
it sounds a little like Helms' admendment to the postal
appropriation act that the senate unanimously passed a few
years ago -- you know, the one where Pagan churches would be
denied any federal status, tax-exemption, and would be legally
defined as "evil" (so, what's the fine for being found "evil"?)

  Are people still trying to legislate us off the face of the
Mother?

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "gangway, folx" was:  Re:  Need help/advice on designing my Taro
Keywords: Tarot, art, design, chocolate
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:49:46 GMT
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6


In article <VLkePB3w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> > But, I hope you crush `em.
>
> my sentiments exactly.  although if janis and shannon will BOTH read soc.men,
> perhaps a foray into it would be fun...  what do you all say?  B)  shall we
> roast them?
>
> > Maybe we can team up for a flame trinity.  The Goddesses Who Do Not
> > Suffer Fools Gladly, a.k.a. the Bitches from Hell.
> 
> and if Amanda gets her newsreader fixed, we can be a tetrality?  but she has to
> say what sort of chocolate she likes (shannon that is) before we induct her.
> milk is about the only sort left...
> 
> whee!  Bitch Goddess from Hel, on our way!!!!!!
> 
>                                               -ailsa
>                                                She Who Must Be Fed Chocolate

Something tells me that there are going to be a lot of men out there buying
chocolate just to appease the Bitch Goddesses from Hell. ;)

Glad I know the mailing address of Roger's Chocolates,

-- Brad
   He Who Is Stocked Up On Chocolate... Mainly For His Own Consumption But Is
   Willing To Share. :)
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: info wanted on runes
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:19:02 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

This may be asking a lot -- I don't know how many runes there are since
I usually stick to Tarot cards for self-examination and meditation.

HOWEVER, I am in the process of working on jewelry that has a Pagan-type
flavor to it (as well as just pretty stuff), and I would like to make
rune jewelry.  The problem?  I only know what about six runes look like,
and that's because I found a picture of them in a catalogue (Pyramid
Books and the New Age Collection; did you ever send for the star,
radzy?)

If there a a zillion runes, don't bother, but if someone can post a list
of the runes (how you can show me what they look like I have no idea)
and a one-word explanation of what they stand for (such as joy,
partnership, warrior, etc.), I'd appreciate it.

T'anks,
Janis

P.S.:  I got that deck of Art Nouveau Tarot cards; they are nice, but I
think I'm going to use them for ritual purposes and not self-
examination.  They are lovely, but a bit cold looking, and the frequency
of Barbie-looking women is a little irritating.  The only women in the
deck who look remotely like me are described as "desperate," "cold," or
"androgynous" (the woman in the suit of swords, the Moon, and Justice).  

Also, about the man on the one card who reminded me of my boyfriend?  
Mikey is tons better-looking.  To borrow an ailsa-ism, *grin*.
From: cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 18 Aug 92 04:55:26 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

n9140397@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Michael J. Hamilton) writes:
>_Mists_of_Avalon_ by Marion Zimmer Bradley was
>by far the best peice of pagan fiction I've ever
>read.  There's a lot of philosphy packed into a
>great stroy.
>
  I have a different opinion.  I enjoyed the work but I was dismayed
at how, 10, 15, and 20 years later, the major characters were still
dwelling on the same incidents.  I thought they failed to develop
 and that they woud have had something new to think about and new
passions raised.  I certainly have had that happen in my life.

I have not let that spoil and enjoyable time for me, I would only
warn the reader of a childishness and pettyness in what is a fascinating
book(s) and could have been even more strong.  

The land of the fairies is not well thought through either.  It seems 
like an add-on to fill a plot need.  Since there are 3 worlds, it
might be well to have a better balance.  I love the image tho
of the boat ride that does not always go to the same place.

I welcome replies.  Flames are for making "Some-Mores".

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us
Citizen of the World.
                            "All is my own Dream."         (TKR)
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Tell me yours. . . . . . . . . . . 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Subject: Re: Pagan music (was Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction)
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 00:34:55 GMT

I would highly recommend Leslie and Amy but a can not remember the name of
the cassette.  They too, are from Cananda.  Must be a hotbed of pagan music
in Canada.
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu