Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:11:12 -0500
From:         Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      East Timor

   Here I am, responding to ANOTHER meandering, pointless Ardi post.  In this
one, he makes a feeble attempt to counter both myself and Charles Scheiner.

>> Message-Id:   <9210050342.AA03540@igc.apc.org>
>> Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:42:33 PDT
>> From: Charles Scheiner <cscheiner@IGC.APC.ORG>
>>
>> ar, Max, and Carl --
>> Thanks for your thoughts and ideas on this.
>
>> It's interesting to me that ar gets resentful about the US government
>> no longer training the Indonesian military on how to kill and oppress
>> people more efficiently.  If he agrees with his own statements (as I,
>> a US citizen, do) that the US has serious problems and is responsible
>> for many problems globally, he should celebrate the removal of that
>> influence on ABRI.
>
>Indeed, there is an agreement and disagreement between us, Charley.
>In this case, I tried not to attack the person but his/her ideas.

    Oh really ?  Our ideas were ATTACKED?!?  I have yet to see a creadible
attack on the part of Mr. Ardi.

>You know exactly from the beginning the very rude behavior as part
>of his celebration was performed. Was it a proper and nice behavior
>that should be performed by a human-right activist?
>
>If in the first place, the way of his 'celebration' was similar to yours,
>probably my response wouldn't be like that. I think, if we declare to
>be a humanist or human-right activits and the like, we need to learn
>how to attack the ideas instead of the people themselves. If we need
>to change something to be better, then we need to behave as best as
>we could based on what you feel good and somebody else's good feeling
>too. I know you guys are more human-right oriented than me. Even if
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
		  Understatement of the year!

>I am, this is not my business anyway. I just better take care my
>people before I spent my time for something that I don't know better.
>About celebration? Wait a minute,.... are you happy for now?
>Do you think it will be no more game? I think you know better than me
>about whats going on in this place. Yes you could celebrate it. Enjoy....

      So, what's your point ?  You said NOTHING to either counter Charles
Scheiner or support your positions.


>
>> Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 18:33:08 -0500
>> From: Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
>>
>> [deleted]
>>>need support and education. My point is, there are a lot of things to
>>>do to make you environment cleaner and more beutiful. Why do you keep
>>>trying to avoid the local problems and go away from your place just for
>>                   ^^^ Irrelevant.  The topic at hand is East Timor, not the
>> United States.  Changing the subject will not change things in East Timor.
>
>Hmmm, I wonder, Charley and Max don't have a similar view here. Charley
>seems to accept it by using his approach as what my statistician friend
>calls this as 'cause-effect factor.' But could you talk much about
>the cause instead? I still don't understand, why some people like to
>talk about ET instead of talking about the causa in the first place?

	You are right, US foreign policy certainly has played a role in
supporting Indonesia's brutal occupation of East Timor.  You, however, were
trying to obscure the issue by bringing up American domestic problems, such
as pollution and homelessness, which have absolutely nothing to do with East
Timor.  Also, by bringing up causes and effects, you have essentially
admitted that the charges against Indonesia's East Timor policy are true.

>and it seems to me that some of us in this net prefer to get involved
>in the business of others.

	Are you saying that human rights are none of my business ?  Would
you say the same thing if Indonesia were still a Portugese colony ?  I think
not!

>
>[deleted]
>>>those running government? Get out!!!
>>                 ^^^ Opressive governments tend to be emancipated in their
>>treatment of the facts.  In other words, they have a nasty tendancy to lie.
>
>To lie? If you could have a time to read Time magazine Oct.5, 1992, you
>will know much what you talking about :-).
>
>>>Be real! Get real! and there are so many real things are going on
>>>just right in your place. I tell you what, why don't you just tell
>>>me, whats the different between anthropology and journalism? Than
>>                 ^^^ What does this smoke screen have to do with East Timor ?
>>>you will know as an outsider why you got the report like that.
>
>Charley could tell you this :-).
    It seems to me that "Charley" and I argee quite well on East Timor.

>
>>>The problem here is not who defends whom. But how you could be a
>>>brilliant helper to solve so many problems in you place, before
>>>you go out to take a shot somewhere else. More than that the more
>>>intellectual discussion is the better, than just mucking around.
>>   ^^^ I repeat, what does THIS smoke screen have to do with East Timor ?
>
>Because, talking about ET doesn't need to or may be cannot be so
>intellectual :-).
      What on EARTH are you trying to say ?  Why do you keep avoiding the
topic ?


>
>>>No flame, please. I just try to follow your sense of humor here.
>>   ^^^ Sorry, you're already crispy.
>
>Can't us be more humorous?
>
>>>       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.
>>>Yes, and even you find evil everywhere :-).
>>                        ^^^ Like in Indonesia, perhaps ?
>
>I repeat EVERYWHERE (w/out mentioning a particular country).
    Yes, everywhere, like Burma, Vietnam, INDONESIA, China, South Africa.....
       Oh, and don't forget Yugoslavia!

>
>>      There was nothing of substance in this response, only smoke screens
>>to avoid addressing Indonesia's brutal treatment of East Timor.  Rarely have
>>I encountered a more pathetic debating opponent.
>>                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu
>
>Hey, relax......
>Lets replace the name in above statement with another name, it might be
>more fun, though. As Charley implisitly said, there is a cause-effect
>factor in this case. And this is my first time to response to such a
      You are implicitly agreeing with the fact that Indonesia is brutalizing
East Timor.

>'elemental celebration.' I think I should join a human-right movement

     YOU in a HUMAN RIGHTS movement ?!?!?!?!?
     <<5 minuits of side-splitting laughter>>
     Wouldn't that be  kinda' like the fox guarding the henhouse ?

>so that I could be a sympathic :-).
>
>Charley said:
>>As an American, I want MY government to stop supplying weapons and
>>training to military and other dictatorships like the Suharto regime.
>>I don't want my taxes and the name of my country to be associated with
>>mass murder and genocide, whether directly done by the Pentagon's forces
>>or by others (Marcos, Deng, Suharto, Pinochet, Somoza, ...) bought and
>>paid for by the Pentagon and the CIA.
>
>There you go. This statment is an original one. Its nicer, isn't it.
>If Carl celebrated using these words in the first place, I think,
>we could have fun :-).
>
>>I would expect that the people living in those countries would be glad
>>to have the burden of American imperialism lifted from their shoulders.
>
>I agree in this case. But just can't read Carl's words. I hope you
>understand why I was irritated with. We are in the arena of human-right
>movement, and should be humane and polite. Am I wrong?
      Yes, you are wrong...about East Timor.
>
>>Why the negative, nationalist reaction of Indonesians like ar when we
>>stop bringing their military officers to the US for brainwashing and
>>cultivation of subservience to the Pentagon?  Do you want Washington
>>to run things in your country -- the essence of George Bush's "New World
>>Order?"
>
>Hmmmm, its pretty democratic nuance :-)
>
>Hey relax.....   I said that the first words of the 'elemental
>celebration' was so rude. And some folks in this net agreed with my
>'evaluation' of such a 'human-right celebration.' Thats all.
>Charley, hope you understand why I responded like that to Carl's
>(not Carl). Probably it was because of my human-right.
>
>>Charlie Scheiner, East Timor Action Network /US
>ardi [no network]
>

     Ardi, it is obvious that you support the Indonesian government in East
Timor, however, you keep avoiding the topic.  Instead of defending your
government's policies whan challenged to do so.  Instead, you post long,
rambling tirades of meaningless drivel punctuated by the occasional Smiley.
     I realize that you have a tough job ahead of you, but it is not
impossible.  The Khmer Rouge and the Hanoi regime, both of which are guilty
of crimes at least as foul as those committed by your government in East
Timor*, have very eloquent spokesmen for their causes.  Perhaps you can take
some tips from them in defending the indefensible ?




* Hanoi and the KR have murdered far more people than Indonesia has in East
Timor, but you must keep in mind the fact that East Timor is a small island
with a small population. Hanoi and the KR had and still have far more people
to "work" with.




Refer comments, suggestions, flames to

                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.
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