HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: DCHRISTO@vm.cc.purdue.edu (Dorothy J. Christoff)
Subject: Re: language questions
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:49:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.180135.8282@cs.sfu.ca>
jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
 
>What language do the people of the Greek province of Macedonia speak?
>
 
I don't know for sure, but I would assume they speak Greek.
 
>What language do the people of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia speak?
>
 
My father was born there.  My mother's mother and father were born there.
They always told me the language they taught me to speak was Macedonian.
 
>What language do the people of western Bulgaria speak?
>
 
Bulgarian?
 
- Dorothy Christoff               O O O o o o o . . . . .
  Purdue University              O    =======
  DCHRISTO@PURCCVM.BITNET        Y__'_|_|_|_| --++++++--
  DCHRISTO@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU      |__|_|  P  | | PURDUE |
  (317) 494-5485                {|____|_____|:|________|
  (317) 494-0587 FAX             /oo-----OO     oo  oo
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: language questions
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:20:55 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <16B5E8A36.DCHRISTO@vm.cc.purdue.edu>, DCHRISTO@vm.cc.purdue.edu (Dorothy J. Christoff) writes:

|>  
|> My father was born there.  My mother's mother and father were born there.
|> They always told me the language they taught me to speak was Macedonian.

But should you trace the origin of that "macedonian" language, you will discover
no evidences for its existence before the 19th century. What you will also
discover is that what you call "macedonian" language is a mixture of Greek,
Slavic, Bulgarian and Turkish types. No macedonian language, no contemporary
macedonian language that is, exist as far as the linguistic definiton of a
language goes.

It would be similar to your token, to assume that the Cajun spoken in the
Southern States, are French. They are not (although cajun used to be french
way back in 16th, 17th if memory serves --- I don't remember very well).


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: bill@ganesha.cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge)
Subject: Greece willing to compromise?
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Research Program
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:23:23 GMT


I thought I saw an article recently saying that Greece was
willing to compromise on recognizing Macedonia.

It would be a shame to see this one-issue newsgroup die so
quickly.

By the way, is there any e-mail access to Macedonia (you know,
the former Yugoslavian renegade non-EEC one)?
From: aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu (Robert D West)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: DANISH FOREIGN MINISTER
Date: 21 Jan 1993 07:23:46 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu




>|> 
>|> Danish foreign minister Uffe Elleman-Jenson called on the EC
>|> to press Greece into allowing recognition of the Republic of Macedonia,
>|> according to the RFE/RL report.
>Well, Denmark should be more careful when dealing with EC issues. These people
>are not sure it they stay or withdraw from the community. And the statement of
>their foreign minister was far away from the EC's policy. EC's policy about the
>FYRM is the first decission of the Community regarding foreign affairs, that was
>accepted unanimously and reafirmed twice. 

	I'm not sure by what standards the decision about
Macedonia is the EC's "first" decision regarding foreign affairs.
Since ther ecognition of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Slovenia, and Croatia
in January 1991 predates the determination as to what to do with
Macedonia, there is some difficulty with Leo's claim here.

Also, regarding the Danish status in the EC - their fears about potential
harm from the EC are shared widely by the French and the English, and
to some extent even by the Germans. Major worldwide recessions have a
tendency to make difficult the pursuit of combined policies.

	Returning to Macedonia - (This is a prediction. I am not
saying that it is good or bad, just that my interpretation of events
suggests that it *is*:  Macedonia will be recognized by the EC by the end
of April. The danger of the war spreading will push the EC into
action).
--










-- 
"I don't know a soul who's not been battered	|	The American Dream?
I don't have a friend who feels at ease		|	The California Dream?
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered	|  In 1993, dreams these aren't.
Or driven to its knees.				|  Rather, they're nightmares.
But it's all right, it's all right"		|______________________________
	---Paul Simon, "American Tune" (1973)	|	aphrael@cats.ucsc.edu
________________________________________________|  1991-1995; Politics/History
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.europe
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: Kati diaforetiko
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:09:07 GMT



 My apologies for posting this to soc.culture.europe. I intented soc.culture.greek :(
It doesn't let me take the posting down. It says "You can't cancel someone 
else's article"!!! and I can't convince it that this is MY article.



                                                   --  Xapa
From: tsioutsias-dimitris@cs.yale.edu (Dimitris Tsioutsias)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:51:58 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyaya.systemsz.cs.yale.edu

reinitz-john@cs.yale.edu (John Reinitz) writes:
<<<<<<<<<<<
Hmmm.... like Basil I, the Bulgar-slayer? Good business for 
those making computer interfaces for the visually handicapped.

[Basil sent the Bulgarian army back with 9/10 soldiers blinded,
the tenth with one eye. I'm sure you know this, Aleck, but others may not]
<<<<<<<<<<<<


	So for you John, an act by an individual (because if it was
	common practice there would be other examples like the one
	you mention) some 800 years ago (!!!) is enough basis for
	modern Greece having similar ambitions for its neightbors??

	What sort of analysis is that? Is it deductive reasoning? 

	What about Americans that managed to have 10 millions native
	Indians become extinct? Is America a vicious country because
	of that incident? If you draw a similar conclusion, the
	answer is " that Americans cannot talk about New World Order,
	Operation Hope and Human Rights since they did what they did 
	with the Indians in the past", right?

	->dimitris
From: jmg@bigbang.la.asu.edu (Jonathan Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: language questions
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:30:45 GMT
Reply-To: jmg@bigbang.la.asu.edu (Jonathan Gordon)
Organization: Arizona State University


|>> 
|>>|>
|>>|>What language do the people of western Bulgaria speak?
|>>|>
|>>Macedonian at home, in private.  Bulgarian mostly in public.
|>
|>Who told you so ?
|>
|>Plamen
|>
Friends and a teacher of mine.  The one who taught me Macedonian.
JG
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas)
Subject: Re: New Nat'l Geographic Atlas
Organization: VTT
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 08:27:23 GMT

In article <108507@bu.edu> tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) writes:
> Now jugding
>from history, no one has succeeded in winning a war with two fronts, for
>example Hitler and the Nazi Germany. 

Gee, i thought the US won WW II with two fronts (European & Pacific).
Of course it had a lot of allies and two big moats, its mainland was
never attacked.

>Tasos

-- 
doug foxvog     
dfo@tko.vtt.fi   
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Historians speak out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:24:07 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "All countries are burdened by their history, but  the  past
     weights  particularly  heavily  on  Greece.   It  is  still,
     regrettably, a commonplace to talk of `modern Greece' and of
     `modern  Greek'  as  though `Greece' and `Greek' must neces-
     sarily refer to the ancient world."

     Clogg, Richard, "A concise  History  of  Greece",  Cambridge
     University Press, Cambridge, 1992.
     R. Clogg is a Professor at the Universities  of  London  and
     Oxford.
-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: 114 years since Simeon Radev was born
Date: 21 Jan 93 09:51:39 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.


Hello everybody,

I've posted this in s.c.y. but its so nice to have a Macedonian newsgroup
so I'll repeat the posting here:

On January 19th, 1879 in the small Macedonian village - Resna (the same
village where IMRO was found) was born Simeon Radev - one of the
most prominent Macedonians due to whom, many people in Europe were
enlightened about Macedonia and its struggle for freedom. 

Simeon Radev was sworn in IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary
Organization) by Goce Delchev himself and was fighting for the Macedonian
cause on the international arena with the weapon he was best with - the pen
of the journalist.

When/if I have a bit more time, I'll write more on this prominent figure of
the IMRO and the Macedonian movement for freedom.


Best regards

Luben 
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Historians speak out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:23:35 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "That the Macedonians and their kings did in  fact  speak  a
     dialect  of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowa-
     days as certain."

     Errington, Malcolm, "A History of Macedonia", University  of
     California Press, Los Angeles, 1990.
     R. M. Errington is a Professor at the University of Marburg.


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: USA Governemnt SPEAK OUT !
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:31:12 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University



***********-------------
***********-------------          U. S.  STATE  DEPARTMENT
***********-------------
***********-------------
------------------------         Foreign Relations.  Vol  VIII
------------------------           Washington D.C.
------------------------
------------------------

                                   Circular Airgram
                                 (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

  The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers

    The following is for your information and general guidance, but not
for any positive action at this time.

    The Department has noted with considerable apprehension
increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an
autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also
from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek
territory would be included in the projected state. This Government
considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or
Macedonian "national consciousness" to be kunjustified demagoguery
representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival
a possible cloak for agressive intentions against Greece.

    The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of
the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia
is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost
unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of
serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be
false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or
group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive
acts of "Macedonian forces" against Greece.

    The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this
subject which may come to your attention

                                            STETTINIUS
-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: sutin@helios.UCSC.EDU (Brian Sutin)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: 114 years since Simeon Radev was born
Date: 28 Jan 1993 02:31:58 GMT
Organization: Lick Observatory UCSC
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.ucsc.edu

In article <7478@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov) writes:
>In article <Jan22.212536.36368@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@lance.colostate.edu writes:

>>Of course, you fail to mention that this freedom has a Bulgarian flavor,
>>as Radev is of Bulgarian origin.

>One of undisputed facts is that during the last century and the start of
>this one, there were only 6 ethnic groups in Macedonia - Bulgarians,
>Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Serbs and Jews. However, the fight for freedom of
.[...]
>Luben

Don't forget Gypsies.  They didn't just teleport in after WWI.  Mr. Anthc
certainly wouldn't forget if he were reading this group.

Brian Sutin				sutin@lick.ucsc.edu
Lick Observatory, UCSC			Santa Cruz, CA 95064
    Fred:   "May I rescue you?"
    Ginger: "No, thank you.  I prefer being in distress."
From: lublin@husc8.harvard.edu (David Lublin)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: New Nat'l Geographic Atlas
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:07:54 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

National Geographic came out recently with a revised version of its
6th Edition Atlas which shows Macedonia as well as the rest of 
ex-Yugoslavia.  The Greeks have lost out on the map as NG has labelled
the country "Macedonia."  BTW, you can also find the flag in the atlas.

I'm amazed that in the process of claiming Macedonia is ethnically this
or that, that few people have acknowledged that Macedonia has historically
been and continues to be an ethnic polyglot.  Besides Macedonians, Bulgarians,
Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs have all lived in Macedonia.  The ethnic lines
between these groups haven't always been ultra-clear either.

I might as well add my two cents on the naming controversy as well.  It
seems to me that any country has the right to name itself anything it wants.
Macedonia doesn't claim the Greek province by the same name so what's the 
beef?  And the idea that Macedonia itself poses any threat to Greece is absurd.

David
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Macedonia should not be recognized (Re: Macedonia should be recognized)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:24:56 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <JTSILLA.93Jan21103509@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu>, jtsilla@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu (James Tsillas) writes:
|> 
|> I think Skopje should not be recognized because there is still a
|> question of it's treatment of the Serbian minority and the other
|> minority groups living in the region. This is precisely the reason there
|> is war in Bosnia today.

True indeed. In the introduction to their consitution, they refer to all
ethnic minorities living in FYRM but they fail to mention two:Greeks and
Serbs.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,misc.test
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: New Macedonian Group Established Here
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:51:43 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1993Jan21.074327.26443@enea.se>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
|> 
|> And the name of an independent state.

No so fast bud. Not so fast.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.europe,misc.headlines
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject:  Historians speak out!
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:22:09 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

o    "And yet if we take into account the  political  conditions,
     religion  and  morals  of the Macedonians, our conviction is
     strengthened that they were a Greek race  and  akin  to  the
     Dorians."

     Wilcken, U., "Alexander the Great", W. W. Norton &  Company,
     New York, 1967.
     U. Wilcken (1862-1944) was a University Professor at  Berlin
     and member of the German Academy.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Date: 24 Jan 93 01:58:46 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson) writes:
|> You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece never
Is that what Greece is asking for??? 
|> conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we return
|> the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks speak
|> Macedonian.
Thanks for your permission but we already DO speak Macedonian which is of 
course ... Greek!  
|> 
|> By the way, pretty pathetic how afraid Greece is of a powerless little country
Oh, we're "afraid" now are we? 
|> that just wants to be free.  And that claim about Macedonia being part of Greece's
|> glorious history - why isn't Turkey or Rome?
Its not a "claim" my friend, its a FACT. If you ever visit Greece you'll see for 
yourself. 
|> --
|> Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
|> email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 
|> 
Aleck H Alexopoulos
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 12:21:04 CST
From: <U15708@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Distribution: alt
 <1jk74rINNpi@NYAYA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU>
 <1993Jan21.034845.29281@athena.mit.edu>
 <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca>

In article <1993Jan22.130806.23724@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, viking@bnr.ca (Harold
Henrikson) says:
>
>You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece
>never
>conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we
>return
>the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks
>speak
>Macedonian.
>


New proposed name for Skopje!!!   REPUBLIC OF CANADA!!

It's a wonderful name, I hope everyone accepts it.


[:> Marios

                                            ______   ____   ______   ____
Marios  Kefalopoulos  u15708@uicvm.bitnet  |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |
pa vu ga di ke zo ni  u15708@uicvm.uic.edu | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| |
                                           | |____| |______| |____| |______|

Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: viking@bnr.ca (Harold Henrikson)
Subject: Re: Is Macedonia a Greek province?
Reply-To: viking@bmerh66.bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Ottawa, Fibre Systems Development
Distribution: alt
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 13:08:06 GMT

You know, you Greeks are right - we should rectify history.  Since Greece never
conquered Macedonia (never mind Sparta, Athens, Thebes, etc.), why don't we return
the borders to where they were after Phillip's conquest and make all Greeks speak
Macedonian.

By the way, pretty pathetic how afraid Greece is of a powerless little country
that just wants to be free.  And that claim about Macedonia being part of Greece's
glorious history - why isn't Turkey or Rome?
--
Harold Henriksen                    Bell-Northern Research
email: viking@bmerh694.bnr.ca       Ottawa,Ontario,Canada 

Pillaging and plundering were more fun than programming!
(Opinions are not my employer's and sometimes not mine)
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
From: robertk@rkrajewski.lotus.com (Robert Krajewski)
Subject: Re: Macedonia should be recognized
Organization: Lotus Development Corporation
	<C85PERWE.93Jan21124423@kol16.IDA.LiU.SE>
	<1993Jan24.184944.3947@enea.se>
	<Jan25.012847.45509@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:47:33

In article <Jan25.012847.45509@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:

   Unfortunately, the EC has a slight disagreement over this issue. They believe
   that there is a problem with the FYRM's contitution.

Can you give us more details ? According to what I've read in the
_Economist_ and an exchange of letters about this subject in _The
Nation_, this is not so. The Badinter commission has found that the
FYRM has indeed satisfied EC human rights criteria for recogntion.

This is not to say, according to what I have read, that the human
rights situation in Macedonia is perfect. First, there is a legacy of a
anti-Albanian discrimination in the ex-Yugoslav province due to its
pro-Serb leadership in the 80s. (In fact, the Serbian treatment of
Kosovo was a precursor to the kind of "Greater Serbia" tendencies
which broke up Yugoslavia and have lead to civil war and worse.)
Second, there is chauvanistic legislation that makes its harder for
Albanians to become full residents, and that restricts use of the
Albanian language. And, to quote Richard Kaplan (in the _Nation, of
February 1 1993:

	"...And despite formal guarantees for all nationalities,
	the Constitution nonetheless specifies that Macedonia
	exists as `a national state of the Macedonian people'
	-- a formulation that non-Macedonians naturally find
	offensive."