HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: misc.rural

/ hpindda:misc.rural / luden@lehigh.edu (Dean E. Nelson) /  6:01 am  Nov 12, 1992 /
>I am interested in building a small greenhouse out of pvc pipe and plastic.  
>I would appreciate any ideas, experiences, pros and cons, etc. 
----------
They are too flimsy if you use plastic.  The wind will destroy them.  PVC 
makes a good deer fence when combined with garden netting over the whole 
thing.  If you want a cheap green house, then make it out of redwood 2x4s.
A simple four-post frame and slanted roof with plastic will do the job. 
Remember to have some holes in the plastic to allow the wind to blow through
in case of storms.
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: grant@clarinet.com (Grant Robinson)
Subject: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:37:01 GMT

In article <25260042@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> ben@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Benjamin Ellsworth) writes:
>
>> ... This is the bear's set of rules.  If you have a problem with that,
>
>What I have a problem with is that the bear gets to live by its rules
>and I can't live by mine.  It's fine with me if the bear wants to try
>to eat me any way that it can.  I just want to defend myself any way
>that I like.  Firearms are illegal within national parks.

Yes, but those are man's rules, not the bear's.  If you disagree with 
them, there are lots of things you can do about it.  Whether or not they're
effective, well that's up to you and your elected representatives.

>I am not arguing for pre-emptive eradication of bears.  It is the
>one-sided application of "the laws of nature" that rankles.

Interesting interpretation of the "laws of nature."  What is natural?

Purists would argue that guns are not "natural," and in the event of an
encounter, they'd let you use any means of duking it out with a bear that
didn't involve machines that spit hot lead at thousands of feet per
second.  How about knives?  Nope.  Pointy rocks and big sticks? Now 
you're talking.

Wackos from the other extreme might argue that human intelligence is a
product of evolution, and everything that springs from it is therefore
natural.  Nukes and nuclear power are "natural."  "Nuke a bear, save a
life!"
-- 
Grant Robinson -- ClariNet Communications Corp, Sunnyvale, CA (408)-296-0366
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Subject: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
	<Mf2aFZk00000IXCUY9@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:01:39 GMT

Phil Andrews writes:

   As a farmer I can testify that most compensation systems of this
   nature have lots of loopholes (e.g., sheep kills by dogs are
   covered at 80% of market value, but there is no coverage for coyote
   kills, can you prove it was a dog, sir ?), never cover the true
   market value, nor the cost of dealing with the carcase, etc.
   Certainly the numbers I heard for the Minnesota farmers ($400 for a
   full-grown cow) didn't sound like fair market value. I'd be
   interested to hear from anyone who has first-hand experience.

Before we got our guard donkey, Rosie, we lost a Cotswold ewe to a
coyote.  The local town compensates livestock owners at the `proved'
market value (you produce the receipts or proof of comparable sales)
for dog kills.  This was so obviously a coyote kill that I didn't
bother to call the town dog warden.*  The state (Connecticut) has a
policy for compensating livestock owners for coyote kills, but they
require proof that coyote-proof fences are in place.  Coyote-proof, by
their definition, is 48-inch high woven wire or multi-strand electric
fencing.  We have stone walls around our pastures, which are most
definitely not coyote proof (I've shot a coyote in a pasture here).

* Dogs maim sheep, ripping and slashing at as many sheep as they can
  catch.  Coyotes, particularly in the late spring when the mother is
  feeding her kit, are quite methodical.  They look for a weak sheep,
  and kill by strangulation, leaving almost no teeth marks on the
  neck.  They then disembowel the sheep, with the precision of a
  surgeon, and carry the soft bowels back to their kit.
-- 

				Ronald Florence
				ron@mlfarm.com
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Inexpensive greenhouse
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:24:34 CST

In article 14280001@hpmwga.sr.hp.com, jefftb@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown) writes:
|  Check out a book called the "60 miniute gardener" ( I don't know the
|  auther or publ.). I t shows plans for raised beds that can be covered w/
|  hoops of pvc pipe and then plastic sheet. 
|  Basicly you just put pieces of 2" (I think) pvc pipe every couple feet
|  on the sides of the raised bed and then slide smaller pvc pipe and flex          it |  to make a curved "rafter".

I bet you could cut the larger pieces of pvc at a sharp angle on one end so
that it is like a stake and can easily be driven into the ground with a 
mallet.

How does one attach the plastic to the bent pvc?  What do you do for
doorways?

I have heard it said that a couple of rabbits in a hutch can generate
most of the heat needed for a small greenhouse.  That seems hard to
believe, but can anyone shed further light on the subject?

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.



From: ben@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Benjamin Ellsworth)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:13:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Newsgroups: misc.rural


> ... This is the bear's set of rules.  If you have a problem with that,

What I have a problem with is that the bear gets to live by its rules
and I can't live by mine.  It's fine with me if the bear wants to try
to eat me any way that it can.  I just want to defend myself any way
that I like.  Firearms are illegal within national parks.

I am not arguing for pre-emptive eradication of bears.  It is the
one-sided application of "the laws of nature" that rankles.

---

Ben

Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yel
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:29:01 CST

In article 123510004@hpindda.cup.hp.com, krause@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Mike Krause) writes:
|...  IMO, too
|much federal land is being used for grazing cattle and sheep.  Much of the
|land is being damaged due to improper pasture rotation.  I think that if 
|the consumption of beef and sheep continues to drop, then the amount of 
|federal land used for such ventures should be reduce accordingly. 
|
|
If cattle were removed entirely from public land it would not affect the
total US beef supply in the least.


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       Old Sourdoughs never die.  They just ferment away.



Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: jdaves@triton.unm.edu (Jonathan Daves-Brody)
Subject: New Alchemy Institute
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 17:07:49 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Hello.  Does anybody know anything about the New Alchemy Institute?  I've
seen a couple of interesting books about low-tech fish farming, windmills
, etc.  The most recent publication dates I've seen have been about 1980.
Does anybody know anything else, or had any experience with this place?

Thanks, yours, Jonathan Daves-Brody
From: dan@eye.com (Dan Loewus)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: old leather
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 20:32:48 GMT
Summary: making leather stiff?
Distribution: world
Keywords: leather
Organization: 3D/EYE, Inc.  Ithaca, NY

Howdy,

I have an old leather hat I am cleaning up.  It was quite dirty and lots
of mold on it.  I have scrubbed it clean with soap and water and as per
usual it became quite wet and floppy.  I dried it out on a form so the
leather has dried in the shape I want it.  I would now ilke to polish up
the leather and make it as stiff as possible.  Is there anything out there
( wax, etc ) that can be used to recondition the surface of the leather to
make it shine and smooth yet help keep the leather stiff ( so the brim
looks like smooth shiny leather but is still stiff )?  Or is it that once 
leather looses that new look it is lost forever?



-- 
"A typical half brick half wood New York house in a typical New York
 suburb with ginkgo trees scattered conservatively about."

 DL
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: fodder for ducks & geese
Distribution: world
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 22:56:09 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents

If you are raising ducks and geese, may I suggest a support enterprise
in aquaculture with a few pigs thrown in for good measure would offer
a highly sustainable nutrition cycle for the birds, especially suited
to a place like Hawaii.

Apart from your alfalfa and buckwheat for range feeding of the flocks,
water hyacynth can be grown on the pond surface (Chinese use floating
bamboo to contain it) which can be chopped up as fodder, and snails as
well as insects will populate the edges of the pond for your birds to
browse.

The flocks of grazing birds would also return nutrients to the ponds
to support a high volume of aquacultural production. A few pigs will
scavenge the area and keep it clean, providing your household with
pork at no extra burden on the nutrition cycle.

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: bailebn@mail.auburn.edu (Bliss Bailey)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Fount heater fire hazard ?
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:33:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Nov18.153333.25611
Reply-To: bailebn@mail.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University

In article 26358@newstand.syr.edu, mcconnel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Terry R. McConnell) writes:
{stuff deleted}
> Last year we purchased
>several Universal Fount heaters from Strombergs. These are basically
>round 3 inch high platforms with a heater inside that the waterers
>sit on top of. There is a thermostat built in which turns the heater
>on whenever the temperature goes below 50F. The units seem reliable
>and well made, but I am rather nervous having an electrical source
>of heat sitting on top of or close to the dry straw we use for litter.
>
>Has anyone had or heard of a fire caused by these or similar devices ?
>
>Are there any additional precautions I can take ? There is a GFI on 
>the circuit. I know that these are very effective in preventing
>dangerous shocks, but do they also help prevent fires? (I'm an 
>electrical moron.)
>
Look for the Underwriters Lab seal of approval on the suckers.  If they
are UL listed, then they will be pretty darn safe, even if they fail for
some reason.
---
_____________________________________________________________________
Bliss Bailey                                          144 Parker Hall
Network Support Specialist                      Auburn University, AL
Auburn University, AL                                           36849
bailebn@mail.auburn.edu                                  205-844-4512
_____________________________________________________________________
From: luden@lehigh.edu (Dean E. Nelson)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: New Alchemy Institute
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:59:17 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University Computing Center

In article <slnq8+h@lynx.unm.edu> jdaves@triton.unm.edu (Jonathan Daves-Brody) writes:
>From: jdaves@triton.unm.edu (Jonathan Daves-Brody)
>Subject: New Alchemy Institute
>Date: 20 Nov 92 17:07:49 GMT

>Hello.  Does anybody know anything about the New Alchemy Institute?  I've
>seen a couple of interesting books about low-tech fish farming, windmills
>, etc.  The most recent publication dates I've seen have been about 1980.
>Does anybody know anything else, or had any experience with this place?

>Thanks, yours, Jonathan Daves-Brody

I have been looking into 'low-tech fish farming' and have just finished 
reading a book by Bill McClarney who gathered a lot of his experience at the 
New Alchemy Institute.  I recently posted to another discussion group on 
aquaculture and a reply mentioned a course using McClarney's book at Ocean 
Arks International in Falmouth, MA.

It struck me that this might be associated with the New Alchemy Institute.

Dean Nelson  den0@lehigh.edu
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:44:09 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <25260042@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> ben@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Benjamin Ellsworth) writes:

>> ... This is the bear's set of rules.  If you have a problem with that,

>What I have a problem with is that the bear gets to live by its rules
>and I can't live by mine.  It's fine with me if the bear wants to try
>to eat me any way that it can.  I just want to defend myself any way
>that I like.  Firearms are illegal within national parks.

You get to live by your own rules in your own home, why can't the
bears live by their rules in *their* home?

>I am not arguing for pre-emptive eradication of bears.  It is the
>one-sided application of "the laws of nature" that rankles.

It would be one-sided if the bear was allowed to carry firearms and
you weren't.  But, no, society discriminates against bears.  Gun
store owners will not only *not* sell guns to bears, the bears
get shot for trying to buy one.

Is that justice?  Nope.
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Subject: Sustainable Agriculture Journals List
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:31:24 GMT

Article 230 (65 more) in alt.sustainable.agriculture:
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Subject: Journals List
Date: 15 Nov 92 13:20:37 GMT

  This is a partial list of journals concerned with
sustainable agriculture.
Any additions or corrections are welcome.

---Sustainable Agriculture
      UC Davis  Sust Agri Research & Ed Program
      Davis, California

---Components: Technical Notes from UC Research
   UC Davis       Davis, California

---Alternative Agriculture News
    Institute for Alternative Agriculture
    9200 Edmonston Road
    Ste 117, Greenbelt, Maryland  20770

---American Journal of Alternative Agriculture
   Institute for Alt. Agri  (see above)

---Journal of Sustainable Agriculture
   Food Products Press
   10 Alice St.  
   Binghamton, New York  13904

---AT Source
   PO Box 41
   6700 AA Wageningen
   The Netherlands

---ILEIA  Newsletter
   Information Ctr for Low External Input and
   Sustainable Agriculture
   PO Box 64
   3830  AB   
   Leusden, The Netherlands

---Sustainable Agriculture Newsletter
   Ohio State U
   Dept of Entomology
   1735 Neil Avenue
   Columbus, OH 43210

---Organic Gardening and Farming
   Rodale Press

---MANNA: Newsletter of the Int. Alliance for
          Sust. Agriculture
   Minneopolis  MN

---Sustainable Development
   Ottawa, Ontario    Canada

---Biodynamic News and Events
   and Biodynamics Journal
   Phoenixville, Pennsylvania

---TRANET and RAIN
   Rangeley, Maine  and  Portland, Oregon

---Journal of Appropriate Technology
   London, England

---ABSTRECO
   Holland

---The Cultivar Newsletter
   UC  Santa Cruz
   Santa Cruz, California

---Permaculture Activist
   Route 1, Box 38, Primm Springs, Tennessee 38476

---INSAN  Newsletter
   Institute for Sustainable Agriculture from Nepal
   GPO Box 3033
   Baneshore 10
   Kathmandu, Nepal

---Permaculture Drylands
   The Permaculture Drylands Institute
   PO Box 27371
   Tucson, AZ  85726

---Agroforestry Today
   ICRAF
   PO Box 30677
   Nairobi, Kenya
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Free Chickens
Date: 21 Nov 92 08:50:34 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 


Anyone who lives in the Ohio, Ky, Indiana area:   I have a small flock
of bantams I will give away FREE.  I am planning to start over again
in the spring with different stock.  I have four roosters and ten hens,
they are all bantams, part are half Cochin.  

Sue
Organization: Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 10:42:29 -0500 
From: Phil Andrews <pa0q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
	<123510004@hpindda.cup.hp.com>


>From: krause@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Mike Krause)

>Why don't they just institute the same policy that they already have in
>Minnesota where the rancher is compensated and wolves that roam too far 
>are tracked and killed?  The rancher has nothing to bitch about since 
>s/he get compensation and the wolf population is kept in check. 

As a farmer I can testify that most compensation systems of this nature
have
lots of loopholes (e.g., sheep kills by dogs are covered at 80% of
market value,
but there is no coverage for coyote kills, can you prove it was a dog,
sir ?),
never cover the true market value, nor the cost of dealing with the
carcase, etc. Certainly the numbers I heard for the Minnesota farmers
($400 for a full-grown cow) didn't sound like fair market value. I'd be
interested to hear from anyone who has
first-hand experience.

-Phil Andrews
Newsgroups: misc.rural,rec.gardens
From: rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Bob McKay)
Subject: Re: Growing fodder..
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:56:26 GMT

claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:

>In article <1992Nov18.090359.5839@news.Hawaii.Edu> yee@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jonathan Yee) writes:
>>	Anybody have any experience growing fodder for farm animals?
>>Lately, for my newly established duck & goose enterprise I have decided to
>>try to grow my own feed -- at least as a supplement.  I've so far sown
>>clover, alfalfa, & buckwheat seeds purchased at a health food store.
>			.
>			.
>			.
>I haven't raised waterfowl, and I've never been to
>Hawaii, but I'd guess you've made some good choices.
Only just noticed this thread, but I can confirm that geese LOVE clover 
(though if you use it as a forage crop, you'll need to keep a close eye on
them, as otherwise they'll eradicate it pretty successfully). Don't know
ducks, can't really comment (I thought ducks were pretty much carnivorous, but
it sounds like I'm wrong),
    Cheers
      Bob McKay
-- 
Bob McKay		   	Phone:	+61 6 268 8169	    fax: +61 6 268 8581
Dept. Computer Science		Internet:	rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au
ADFA, Northcott Dve 		UUCP:...!uunet!munnari!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim
Campbell ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA	ARPA:	rim%csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
From: jefftb@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:22:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Inexpensive greenhouse
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (SRSD MWTD)
Newsgroups: misc.rural

  Check out a book called the "60 miniute gardener" ( I don't know the
  auther or publ.). I t shows plans for raised beds that can be covered w/
  hoops of pvc pipe and then plastic sheet. 
  Basicly you just put pieces of 2" (I think) pvc pipe every couple feet
   on the sides of the raised bed and then slide smaller pvc pipe and flex          it to make a curved "rafter".
From: johns@gold.gvg.tek.com (John C. Schultheiss)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Problems heating with wood
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:34:28 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

Ralph Wirthlin writes:
   Wood tends to split a good deal easier at -30 :) (from one who knows)

Grant Robinson replies:
   So do fingers and toes! :( (from one who knows, but not from personal
   experience)

   One thing I've never received a decent answer for:  if cold's general
   effect is to make things numb, how come it hurts so much more when you bang
   a cold thumb with a hammer? :)

And I contribute:

I DO know from personal experience, and although I can't provide a 
definitive answer to your question, I suppose that the thumb isn't
numb enough.  I broke a carpal bone (in the hand, connecting the
wrist to the fingers -- the little finger, in my case) by *shoveling*.
I was trying to get my truck out of the snow, and I took my gloves off.
my hands got numb, and I just pushed too hard on the end of the shovel
with my right hand.  I didn't feel it (well hardly), but I heard it
break, so I quit shoveling (the first smart thing I did that night),
and drove the car to the hospital.  I suppose that if I'd been able to
feel, I never would have pushed the shovel so hard.  Mother was right:
wear your gloves.

So, I suppose that with my hands in this state, I probably wouldn't have
felt the hammer either, at least not much.  There is a point before they
go numb where your hands will become sensitive, and if you hit the 
thumb then, watch out.  You pass this point as your hands are warming
up, also.  If you've ever done this, you know what I'm talking about.
Not a scientific answer, but one based on experience, anyway.
  -- John Schultheiss
From: markw@chusuk (Mark Worrell)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: proposed increase in inheritance tax
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:40:48 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Larry London (london@calypso.uucp) wrote:
: In article <MS-C.718836170.1103527590.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
: mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) writes:{o1k{xGn>I don't see what you
: are all upset about with the change in inheritance tax.
: >After all, it is the responsibility of those of us who work for a living to
: >support the unproductive.  After all, it's all our fault for living in a rural
: >area, presuming to own land, living in a house, and being self-sufficient.
: >The only politically correct way to live is in a one-room apartment, using
: >public transportation, and living on the government's dole.  It's our national
: >shame that those who refuse to work are living out in the streets.
: >
: >Now that it appears likely that we will have a liberal government again, we
: >can dispense with the foolishness of self-worth, self-sufficiency, and being
: >productive.  Happy days are here again for the self-appointed `intellectual
: >elite'.
: 
: Beautifully put! (Loud round of applause).

I couldn't agree more! (More applause)...

Mark
From: krause@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Mike Krause)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:04:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Possible return of gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A.
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Newsgroups: misc.rural

Why don't they just institute the same policy that they already have in
Minnesota where the rancher is compensated and wolves that roam too far 
are tracked and killed?  The rancher has nothing to bitch about since 
s/he get compensation and the wolf population is kept in check.  BTW,
there is a large Bison and Elk population with many being sick, so a 
sick animal is probably much easier to catch than a healthy animal.
Also, does anyone know how much of the land surrounding Yellowstone is
actually federal land leased to ranchers?  To me, if they are getting
compensation and, in addition, they are utilizing federal land, then they
have no basis for complaint.  If it is private land, then there is a basis
but compensation, assuming swift and fair, nullifies this basis.  IMO, too
much federal land is being used for grazing cattle and sheep.  Much of the
land is being damaged due to improper pasture rotation.  I think that if 
the consumption of beef and sheep continues to drop, then the amount of 
federal land used for such ventures should be reduce accordingly. 


Newsgroups: misc.rural