HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Re: Flame on the mets...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 07:35:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.132423.18300@cbnews.cb.att.com>, dae@cbnews.cb.att.com (david.a.elliott)     writes...
> 
>If Miller returns to form and McReynolds bottoms out next year, while Sabes
>comes back to win 22 for the Mets, who will have the best of the trade then?
>We need to wait another year before we judge this deal.
> 

Of course, since next year will be an odd year so Saberhagan should be roughly 
a 20 game winner then. After all, this year has held to his even-odd year form.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:41:23 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

In article <1992Aug27.153430.8990@osf.org> ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:
>----------------
>
>Yes, folks - this is not a hoax! I just heard an interview with Peter
>Gammons on a Boston radio station say that the Blue Jays have obtained
>David Cone from the Mets. The official announcement should be made this
>afternoon.
>
>-Ron

   No way. (please) If that's the case, I'm really bummin'. Just in time
   for the Brewhas, they must be pretty scared....

   --salty
From: Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Fwd: roy NL
Date: 3 Sep 92 12:09:44 GMT
 <4edU0c30BwxdAFpM4B@transarc.com>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


  NL Rookie of the Year?

  How 'bout Tim Wakefield of the Pirates?

  He won last night and is now 5-1, with a
2.03 ERA in, I think, 7 starts.

  He should get 5 or 6 more starts and could
finish the season with 9 or 10 wins. He didn't
come up to the show until August and has been
a lifesaver to the Bucs in light of Zane Smith's
shoulder problems.

  Hey, any rook who has a fan club called "The
Knuckleheads" has to be a candidate.

Ken
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Under The Gun Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Intangibles/Clubhouse Leadership.  Another perspective...
Summary: Think about the implications of 'leadership' existing.
Keywords: I don't buy it.
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:20:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Kevlar Bleacher Concessions, Ltd. (Arlington Branch)

Team Leadership.

Interesting and ephemeral concept.  One of the reasons Canseco was
traded away from the A's was likely because of clubhouse chemistry,
and his perceived contribution to it.

When you think about it, this is an insulting idea.  I recently
returned from playing a series of semi pro tournaments in three
states.  In general, I am not considered a team leader.  I don't
really hang out with the guys when we're not playing or practicing,
and I pretty much keep to myself around the common areas.

Someone made a comment about one of the other guys on the team being
sort of a leader, and a guy who picks up the rest of the team.

As a member of the rest of the team, I was offended by that.  And then
I began to think about the perennial "intangible" arguments that go on
here, and wondered why this has never been mentioned.

If I'm Delino DeShields, and I see the media praising Tim Wallach or
some other popular stiff on the team for being a 'team leader', or
someone who brings out the best in other players, I think I'd be
offended.  This implies that I am not capable of doing my best on my
own, and that I require prodding from my peers to do my job to the best 
of my ability.

How demeaning.

This is just meant to be another perspective regarding an ongoing
discussion on r.s.b., and is not meant to imply that Harold Brooks
crossdresses, albeit tastefully.  Any legal claims to that effect will
be categorically denied.



-- 
*  Gary Huckabay  * "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHH!" *
*  "Stalking the  * - G. Huckabay, E. Gelatt, J. Zuhars, B. Lynn,        *
*     Alderson    *   D. Cleary, S. Tegenfeldt, D. White, J. Chu, D. Lo, *
*    Household."  *   K. Low, A. Rubin, L. Patrick, Aug. 31, 1992.       *
From: mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:27:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Larussa vs ??  was:  Re: Managing in the AL
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

> What I was saying was that there is no difference in the situation
> causing an AL pitcher to be removed:
>   1:  The pitcher is becoming ineffective or
>   2:  the batter coming up will likely HIT against the pitcher, or
>   3:  a combination of 1 and 2.
>   4:  a helluva relief pitcher is ready in the bullpen
> These are the same reasons that NL pitchers are removed.

Except the NL has reason #5: his team is up to bat, it comes to his lineup
spot, and they need someone who can generate some offense.  Even the "good
hitting" pitchers like Gooden, who in a good year might actually break the
Mendoza line, are not excepted, unless they are pitching shutouts.

Again, I don't claim one way is better than the other, but we should neither
disregard the differences nor blow them out of proportion.

BTW, you guys left out the perhaps best modern day example of a good hitting
pitcher - Fernando Valenzuela.  Doesn't he have something like an .800 lifetime
OPS?

And Valentine, what's with this "Clemens may not win his 4th CY, but he still
rules!"  What happened to "best pitcher ever":-?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mmmm - po-ta-to chips!" - John Stuart Mill
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Tom Seaver for President
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:43:10 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation

In article <Aug.13.10.54.46.1992.8497@aramis.rutgers.edu>, rinehart@aramis.rutgers.edu (Mark J. Rinehart) writes:
|> In article <12AUG92.14490558@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
|> 
|> > Tom Seaver is a great speechmaker.  He should run for President.
|> > How about Jerry Koosman as V.P.?  (Where *is* Kooz nowadays?)
|> > Heather
|> 
|> 
|> He may be a great speech maker. I don't know, having never heard him
|> make a speech. But as a Yankees announcer, he sucks big time. He is
|> the single worst broadcaster I've ever heard. 

  You watch Yankee games regularly and think Seaver is the worst you've
  ever heard?? Unbelievable! I think he's much better than Rizutto or
  Murcer - rank amatuer announcers for certain and Seaver's sidekicks on
  the WPIX telecasts. 

  I kind of like Tom's depth of knowledge of the game and don't mind his
  diction at all - he actually sounds good next to the other two.

-Ron

|> Mark
From: lbr@holos0.uucp (Len Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Brave fans
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:51:37 GMT
Organization: Holos Software, Inc.

In article <398@sbmsg1.UUCP> acw@sbmsg1.UUCP (Alvin White) writes:
>In article <66893@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt7469a@prism.gatech.EDU (Brian Landmann) writes:
>>I'm getting really tired of poor Braves's fans.
>>I went to the Braves/Expos game last night and to my disbelief the
>>fans were booing Tom Glavine.  I know every city has some poor
>>fans but how can you boo a guy who has already won 19 games?
>>
>>
>I was a game many years ago and Bob Horner hit four home runs.
>Unfortunately he had five at bats.  On either his third or
>fourth at bat he popped out.  He was actually booed.  Talk
>about disbelief!!!

Well, I didn't see either of these games, but here's my $.02.

How many folks booed?  In a crowd of 40,000 there were always be a few
morons.

The situation this year is surely exacerbated by all the Jonnie-come-lately
Braves fans who never cared for baseball until it became *the* thing
due to the season they had last year.  (For those who think that *this*
is an indictment of Atlanta, note that attendance usually goes
way up in the year following winning an exciting pennant race; the
effect can persist for many years.)

Anyway, I have trouble believing that Atlantans are a tough crowd.
They politely applauded Whatizit.  And they haven't stoned Rally
or Homer the Brave.
From: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Analysis of Canseco Trade
Date: 1 Sep 1992 15:28:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, niguma@ug.cs.dal.ca (Gordon Niguma) says:

>  It's really hard to evaluate the trade from the A's point of view because you
>so many things re: free agents remain unknown. I think after this season the
>A's will let most of their free agents go and only try to retain Sierra and
>McGwire since they are still young and great ball players. Imagine all those
>draft picks the A's will have!! I think that this trade represents the absolute
>final frontier for the A's.
>
>

   I agree that most of Oakland's free agents will  be let go after the season.
However, I think they will also make an effort to sign Steinbach.  A quality
catcher who hits is difficult to find -- he'd also be valuable to a team trying
to raise some young starters.  

SfH

        

-- 
Steven F. Hubbard                 **  That restaurant is so crowded that 
Case Western Reserve University   **    nobody goes there anymore. 
Department of Physics             ** 
Cleveland, OH 44106               **                   Yogi Berra
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies, & Statistics (was Re: The Monthly Cecil Fielder Thread
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:50:51 GMT

In article <37595@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>In article <1992Sep02.204409.2123@brtph560.bnr.ca> psycho@brtpa25.bnr.ca (Paul Jezioranski) writes:
>>
>>Games played, runs scored, hits, walks, RBI, etc. (i.e.
>>the basics) give a solid idea of hitting performance. Sure there may be some
>>misleading info, but many of the other stats you can present can also be
>>equally as misleading.
>
>Well, *why* might looking at RBI opportunities, or simply RBI/out
>be misleading?  Equally misleading?  You are simply giving 
>unreasoned handwaving and gobbledygook.  Why are "the basics"
>magic? 

Because you can *count* them.  We all know how to count.  You use your
fingers and toes.  You can't divide five by nine, and so fractions are
meaningless.

(Honestly, I think this is a big part of why the mediots prefer counting
stats.  They have trouble multiplying and dividing in their heads, and
they don't feel like using calculators.)

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
Clemens four Cy Young!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: paladin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jason Gische)
Subject: Re: Who'll win the NL MVP?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na,local
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 22:23:25 GMT

This is one of those years that I truly wish there were a Ty Cobb award for best hitter, and a separate MVP award.  I don't think many will ague (then again..) that Sheffield is having the best offensive year in the NL.  If he can manage towin the triple crown then he has it sewn up.  However, I think that Barry Bonds must be seriously considered because he is practically the lone offensive threat on that team, yet they are in first place.  Granted, Van Slyke is hitting .330, the Pirates play in the NL Eas


t, and most of the credit should probably go to Leyland, but you can't ignore his major role in their position atop the standings.  While Daulton is having a great year, it isn't as good as Sheffield's year, and he's certainly not as valuable to his team.  The Phillies could have finished in last without him.  As for Pendleton, he plays on a better team than Bonds does, in a smaller park, and the Braves pitching is what has gotten them this far, not Pendleton's bat.  
I'd give the Ty Cobb to Sheffield and the MVP to Bonds.
But, in this world:
Sheffield, Bonds, Pendleton, Daulton.

Jason Gische
(sure aint no Mets up there.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch)
Subject: Re: Cal Ripken Signed
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University - HCF
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:37:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.125512.2369@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes...
>In article <BtL7CM.MB7@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> rstimets@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (robert and stimets) writes:
>>
>>  GOOD GOD!!!
>>deserves money like this.  My only hope is that ridiculous contracts
>>like this don't kill the game of baseball.

No one can deny that this is an ungodly sum of money, but we watch the sport,
we go to the games--the money is there, and the players should get their
share.

In any case, I would FAR prefer to see a system where a Cal Ripken or a 
Ryne Sandberg or a Roger Clemens gets huge sums of money than the system
used in basketball and football, where players who have NEVER played a game
at the professional level get huge sums of money.

> 
>Nothing will kill baseball unless the owners are *really* stupid.  But
>it isn't the $7 million salaries that are inflated.  It is those
>signings like Darwin, Young, Clark, Santiago, Pena, Hatcher...  Why
>are any of these guys getting paid more than $1 million???  Some of
>them actively hurt their teams!

Couldn't agree more.  The players like Ripken, Sandberg, Puckett, Clemens,
and some others actually bring fans to the game.  They are legitimate
superstars, even if they may be having an off-year from a statistical
viewpoint.  The scrubs like Darwin, Young, Clark (Gee, do I see a prejudice
here :-)) don't deserve the salaries they are getting.  

>That being said, I think Cal Ripken will turn out to be a bust.  Last
>year notwithstanding, he is over the hill.  This year is is worst
>ever.  Before that, 1989 and 1990 were career bottoms.  He will be 36
>in the last year of his contract, and while he might earn $6 million
>next year, I doubt he will be worth it after five more years of
>decline.

You may be right, but Cal has been underpaid for many years, and with the
type of smart, positioning-oriented defense he plays, he should at least
be well above-average, even as he gets older.  I do agree that we will never
see a repeat of last year.

>Of course, there is one more factor to consider.  Ripken is worth
>quite a bit to the Orioles for his ability to draw fans.  So perhaps
>he isn't quite so ridiculously overpaid.

Bingo!

>Sorry, O's fans!

We'll forgive you.  I have sympathy on anybody who has had to deal with
The Equalizer, Jeff Reardon, all year.

>Cheers,
>-Valentine
>-- 
>Clemens may not win his 4th CY, but he still rules!	tedward@cs.cornell.edu

We'll buy that.  But Eck blew one last night, you never know...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce 'Less Wealthy than Cal Ripken' Hasch    hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Jose Canseco to Texas...
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:01:22 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Sep1.182029.8335@osf.org> ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes:
>  Who considers Sierra a disruptive influence?? I've heard the guy's a 
>  gentleman! Maybe the fact that he's a free agent is a bit disruptive this
>  year - but the guy sure is no Canseco or Henderson. Rueben is very popular
>  with his teammates, from what I've heard. But in Boston we're pretty far
>  from Texas, so perhaps I haven't heard everything about him - please
>  give some details!

The article I read said Sierra jogged after a ball in right field that 
ended up going for a double costing Kevin Brown a shutout. Apparently
several teammates ripped Sierra for this. When the A's were in Texas
a few weeks ago, my sister made the trip to see the games and she said
that in Texas they were all over Sierra(who missed 3 games because of
an illness of a family member in Puerto Rico). apparently in Texas they're
accusing Ruben of dogging it and inventing injuries(sounds like what
Jose is accused of).

I don't know either player, and I don't believe in disruptive influences
in the clubhouse either, if you play hard I don't care how big of a jerk
a player is.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"A bank is a place where they lend you an umbrella in fair weather, and ask
for it back again when it begins to rain."
                                          Robert Frost
********************************************************************************




Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: enw2049@summa.tamu.edu (WALKE, ERIK N)
Subject: Re: Cubs fans arrogant
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 01:21:00 GMT

In article <farenebt.714780944@craft.camp.clarkson.edu>,
farenebt@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Bri Farenell) writes...

>I'm sorry for the lateness of this posting but I just regained internet
>access...
> 
>I would like to address the behavior of many Cubs' fans during the re-alignment
>controversy.    {editing}
>
>Let's make no pretenses about their motives, it was money, pure and simple. 
>It just doesn't make sense to have 2 eastern time zone teams in the Western
>Division when there is a central time zone team in the East. There is no
>logical reason for the Cubs to oppose realignment (before the Giants moved)
>except to protect their wallets. 
>
       Can't blame the Trib. for wanting to keep that TV money, unless 
       you blame them for signing Sandberg for > $7,000,000 / year.

>There's nothing wrong with protecting yourself monetarily but the fans have
>nothing to lose by moving west; it's only their blind belief in the Cubs 
>management's gospel that bothers me.

       Especially when you look at alot of the other decisions the Trib.
       ownership has made-firing Gordon Goldberry, for example . . . 

       Isn't it funny-people sometimes get so upset about owners 
       treating baseball like a business, and other times they will go
       along with anything the owners say?  Can you say "blind loyalty,"
       boys & girls?  I thought so. 

>All in all, I like the Cubs and Wrigley Field. They certainly do not have
>fair-weather fans like one of the teams mentioned in the above paragraph
>but they can sometimes act as though Major League Baseball revolves around
>the south side of Chicago.

       Yes, they do at times.  Isn't that kind of chauvanism one of the
       whole reasons we root for teams?  We can induldge loyalties, 
       nurture grudges and rivalries, have "enemies" and not have to 
       actually fight wars.  It's fun, but sadly, like any prejudice, 
       it's easily taken too far. 

       BTW, don't mean to be picky, but Wrigley Field is more on the 
       near North side of Chicago.  I know WSox fans who would kill 
       anyone who suggested the Cubs were Southsiders (see prejudices, 
       above ;-) ). 

***************************************************************************
  All opinions expressed by this user are well-reasoned and insightful. 
  Needless to say, they are not those of his advisor or university.
**************************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Cone and Overwork?
Organization: NSSL
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:02:58 GMT

In article <BtvMw9.EwH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> dwarner@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (david j warner) writes:
>If anyone wants to know why Cone has had a tired arm lately, just look to a
>game earlier this summer in which Cone through a 166-pitch game for the Mets.
>One of my writers mentioned this to me and then told me Cone started slipping
>for the year right after that outing.  If you ask me, Jeff Torborg should be
>fired just for that.  NOBODY can go that long (aside from maybe Tim Wakefield
>if the knuckler is on, but that's a different story).

But that's really the question.  If the Mets had decided they weren't going to 
re-sign Cone, then Torborg was just gambling that the effects wouldn't be that
great this year, even though consistently overpitching Cone might be detri-
mental in the long run.  Given all the other problems the Mets have had, it
doesn't look like Cone getting tired cost them very much.  They'd be out of 
the race anyway.  If Torborg knew Cone wasn't going to be a Met in '93, it 
isn't clear to me that he mishandled Cone from a long-term _Mets'_ perspective.
(From Cone's perspective he might have, but not from the Mets.)

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory/CIMMS (Norman, OK)
Andres Galarraga (Through 31 August)  .238 BA  .375 SLG  .276 OBA
28 H from .300  6 H from .250  8 HBP  9 BB
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Braves 15 to protect
Date: 2 Sep 92 23:43:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake mm42@prism.gatech.EDU (Mark Mitchell):

>genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) wrote:

>}The big rap about [Nieves] isn't on his stat sheet, it's on his birth
>}certificate.  24 years old and still in AA, 

>Better check the birth certificate again - Nieves is only 20.  

Oops.  I was blindly quoting the previous posting.  Or perhaps misquoting; I
don't recall.  In either case, this makes all the difference in the world.
Anybody who can post numbers like that in AA at age 20 is a *major* prospect.



-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Tuesday, 25 Aug 1992 23:32:07 EDT
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: HURRICANE ANDREW...

I was thinking earlier today while at work: I wonder if the schedulers
for next year's schedule have made sure that Miami is not at home
during late August and early September...

By the way, hurricanes are no excuse for domes, either. What good
would a baseball game be without anyone around to see it? Not to
mention the havoc it would play on the roof...

+===============================================================+
||   RYAN ROBBINS                    INTERNET:                 ||
||   UNIVERSITY OF MAINE             IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU   ||
+===============================================================+
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: martyp@engin.umich.edu (Martin Pochmara)
Subject: Re: CY, MVP, ROY
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 16:27:35 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Keywords: eat more moose

AMERICAN LEAGUE MVP....

Fielder.....to make up for the last two years!
still leading in RBI's
up there in homers
Not the same year as the last two, but dammit...he should be rewarded!

				JMO,
					Marty

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball