HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: c8922369@jupiter.newcastle.edu.au (Leon James Garde)
Subject: Re: 9600 baud ignorance??
Organization: Uni of Newcastle, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 02:46:58 GMT

anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) writes:

>That someone is me.

>>Surely 9600 baud, with such a modem, is the baud rate of the RS-232 link
>>from the modem to the computer.  The baud rate going over phone lines is
>>lower (because there are more than 2 signal states) 
>>but the bps rate is the same.

Well, in a way thats right: My definition of modem baud rates.
: The rs232 baud rate required to match the data flow along the 
modem's channel bit for bit. rs232 requires baud = bps; thus when the modem's
channel handles 9600 bps, it can then be considered a 9600 baud modem.
No matter what channel/source encoding is done, the information is transfered at
9600 bps along the channel . The result of channel encoding/source encoding
may be data arriving at 38400 bps but the information content is
still arriving at 9600 bps and in rs232 thats 9600 baud.

>I've been waiting for someone to use this excuse :-).  The bps rate
>from the computer to the modem (aka DTE speed, Data Terminal
>Equipment), certainly could be 9600bps, except that all the 9600 bps
>modems I know of (Telebit PEP, USR HST, V.32) also have some sort of
>error correction/data compression protocol.  These protocols
>(especially data compression) need a higher DTE speed in order to get
>maximum performance.  People are already saying that 38.4Kbps is too
Sure you can get better performance compressing the data, try using pkzip.
but you can still only transfer information at 9600 bps. IE: The baud
rate for a modem is the worst possible performance, given a clear line.

>compreession with v.42bis.  When people start using SCSI or enhanced
>parallel ports even bps won't be an accurate term.  There probably
Why ? has something changed in Shannon's theory ??? 
If a symbol comes out of a language of p symbols, then each symbol
conveys log(base 2)  p   bits (of information) !!!!! 
SCSI ports carry symbols in its channel don't they ?

>are some 9600 bps modems out there that actually are 9600 baud and/or
>work only at 9600 bps DTE, but they don't seem to be used that much.
There are lots of reasons for supporting higher speed dte's then the 
modem can use ...  what if the IBM ip9 (aka 80986) doesn't
have a serial port that runs at less than 19200 baud ?

><-:(= Anthony Stieber	anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony

Remember the 9600 bps is seen at the modulation/demodulation point
in the modem. Whatever happens before modulation is unimportant, except
for effeciency/effectiveness.
Thanks anthony for being so understanding of people who call 
9600 bps modems 9600 baud modems, Why dont we compromise and call it
a 2400 sps (symbol per second ) quadrature modem !! then all would be clear!!

leon
 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au (Paul Repacholi)
Subject: Re: Pick -- what is it?
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:41:53 GMT

In article <82342.219922706@kcbbs.gen.nz>, Murray_Moffatt@kcbbs.gen.nz (Murray Moffatt) writes:
...
> So, now you all know a bit more about Pick.  Me, I use Prime's Information 
> software, which is an improved (IMHO) version of Pick, and runs under 
> PrimeOS.
> 
Why is there no "R" in Pick?
Because then it would be usefull.
Primos doesn't even have that advantage... :-)
~Paul
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Nonfiction Computer History Book List Wanted
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:23:17 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <16needINNku5@wupost.wustl.edu>, bryan@wupost.wustl.edu (bryan o'connor) writes:
> I'm looking for good NONFICTION books about computer history.
> (ENIAC to present)

My problem with computer history books is that they all seem to be about
the _people_ involved. I want to learn about the _machines_.

"Fire in the Valley" is good (and not on your list), but, again, it's about
the people.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: mtpins@icaen.uiowa.edu (Michael T Pins)
Subject: Re: dinosaur horsepower
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:24:40 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

exuhag@exu.ericsson.se (James Hague) writes:

>Ellyn Sandor writes:
->
->	3) Can we do ring 5 now?

>If the problem is as big as you say, definitely not.  The classic example
>of this sort of thing is usually given in classes on algorithm analysis.
>An O(n!) algorithm with n = 1 million is going to take an astronomical
>amount of time.  A million-fold increase in computer speed isn't going to
>help it any.  Nobody ever believes this of course.  Everyone thinks that
>getting a 50 MHz 486 will solve everything :-)

But why would everyone think that getting a slower processor will solve
everything?!?     1/2 :-)


-- 
*****************************************************************************
* Michael Pins                |   Internet: amigapd@isca.uiowa.edu          *
* ISCA's Amiga Librarian      |         #include <std.disclaimer>           *
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers
From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Subject: Re: Good source code to read?
Organization: University of Oregon Chemistry Stores
	<NEERI.92Aug10011245@iis.ethz.ch> <1992Aug23.010444.29042@uwm.edu>
Date: 22 Aug 92 19:50:49

In article <1992Aug23.010444.29042@uwm.edu>
markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Hunk) writes:

   In article <NEERI.92Aug10011245@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch
   (Matthias Neeracher) writes:

   >- Proving that two programs produce identical output given
   >identical inputs seems to be equivalent to solving the
   >halting problem (even if the programs are written in
   >assembler :-), so I don't really see what advantage assembler
   >provides.

   No it's not.  And in fact, especially if they are written in
   assembler, there is a purely mathematical function that will
   determine the equivalence or inequivalence of any two programs
   written on the machine in question.

Is this equivalence of binary forms or equivalence of function?
Determining equivalence of function between programs is not that
simple.  How does this simple mathematical function determine
that a program that uses quicksort is functionally the same as a
program that uses bubble sort (but much faster in general, of
course)?

   The Halting problem related to Turing Machines, and there is
   no such thing as a Turing Machine.

The only reason there isn't such a thing as an ideal Turing
machine is that an ideal Turing machine has infinite storage.
Any digital computer is functionally equivalent to a Turing
machine with a finite storage tape.  Therefore the halting
problem still applies to digital computers.  If you write a
purported halting problem solver for a digital computer, I can
give you a program that it can't decide the halting status of.
--
Steve VanDevender 	stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
"Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.3d
From: hsu@pix.com (Dagwood Splits the Atom)
Subject: Re: 'Movement' on light and dark screen background.
Organization: Pix -- The company with no adult supervision.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 05:11:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.201730.8489@ccu.umanitoba.ca> grnbrg@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brian Greenberg) writes:
>In <BswnIE.Dpt@world.std.com> bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum) writes:
>>...  The screen display has alternating lines of red and light-blue
>>text on a dark-blue background.  I wear very thick glasses, and as I move my
>>head, the red letters seem to move around while the light blue letters stand
>>still.

>This is probably caused by the fact that the human eye perceives the red
>wavelengths slightly [faster|slower] than the blue.  This may cause apparent
>movement if you shake your head.

>This theory was used in a Pepsi (?) commercial during the superbowl a few 
>years ago to produce a 3d effect;  the glasses you had to wear had one lens
>clear, and the other tinted (Not red and blue style). Objects moving from
>left to right on the screen looked 'closer' than objects moving from right
>to left (Or the other way 'round.  Not sure).

Essentially correct.  At the reduced light level, the corresponding side
of the brain takes longer to process the scene, and this lag acts as a
depth cue when objects are moved across the scene.  I didn't manage to get
hold of a set of the glasses, so I improvised using my camera's depth-of-
field preview lever.

Now, if only they'd do a commercial with SIRDS.  Fat chance.

-dave

-- 
Dave Hsu                           <hsu@pix.com> -or- <hsu@eng.umd.edu>
Caffeine and Salsa Czar	          "Yeah?  Well there are a lot of people out
Pix Technologies Corporation       there who are full of shit and making money.
Have nerds, will telnet.           And *I'm* not going to be the exception."
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12610 comp.edu:1284 comp.human-factors:1794 comp.misc:3248 comp.programming:2344
From: bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.edu,comp.human-factors,comp.misc,comp.programming
Subject: Re: Indentation
Date: 16 Aug 92 14:36:40 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland

>>BTI computer systems had an implementation language called DRAGON, in
>>which the indentation WAS the loop/if scope indicator.  Pat Helland
>>worked on the language there and told me about it after he left.

>An interesting idea.
>Does anyone know how well this worked in practice?

A more modern example is Guido van Rossum's Python language, used
in Amoeba.  It uses indentation as follows:

if (x == y)
	do something

... the scope of the "if" is shown as being intented by one set of
white space characters.  Personally, I don't like the idea at all,
but maybe it simplifies parsing (and writing scripts) some.

	-- Bryan

--
Bryan O'Sullivan                                                 +353-1-767551
Advanced Development Group                               bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie
Department of Computer Science            "No matter how cynical you are, it's
University of Dublin                       hard to keep up." -- Woody Allen
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert)
Subject: Re: Printer viruses (WAS Re: Computers killing...) (WAS Re: 9 track...)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:34:56 GMT
Organization: ISCA

In article <4081@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us> aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us writes:
>
>YES, but it sounds so absurd to put the virus into the PRINTER!  Just
>think about this.  The virus can't get from the printer into the CPU
>_UNLESS_ there is specific software at the CPU end waiting for it,
>reading it,  and finally executing it.  There just ain't _any_ piece
>of code _anywhere_ to do that;  not with a PRINTER attached anyway.
>So the only way for the virus to get from the printer to the CPU is
>to modify system code and add a fairly complicated data transfer
>system into some piece of software that runs on the CPU and reads the
>virus in.   BUT WHY would anyone bother?? If you have your hands on
>any program running in the CPU;  why would you put the virus in the
>printer?? WHY?   Any program has a zillion places where you can hide
>a virus,  cloack it and run when you feel like it.  Nobody needs a
>_printer_ for that!
>

Why shouldn't you?  It doesn't occur to people to look at the printer for the
source of a virus, now does it?  And it a workstation network with a printer
on Ethernet, it shouldn't that hard to have it spoof another Ethernet address
and pretend to be another computer on network and send false data, uploading
nasties into other printers (Postscript is a VERY powerful language...) and
into workstations and things hanging off the net.  While while everyone picked
at all the real computers on the network, the printers would be ignored as a
possible source of the problem.

-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Doug Siebert                             | "I don't have to take this abuse |
| Internet:  dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu      |  from you - I've got hundreds of |
| NeXTMail:  dsiebert@chop.isca.uiowa.edu  |  people waiting in line to abuse |
|     ICBM:  41d 39m 55s N, 91d 30m 43s W  |  me!"  Bill Murray, Ghostbusters |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Hi, I'm a .signature worm.  I've already copied myself into your .signature.
From: sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Top tips
Date: 19 Aug 1992 17:48:54 GMT
Organization: TMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

In article <Bt8q6u.AGD@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, thoth@uiuc.edu (Ben Cox) writes:
|> 
|> I didn't feel like trying to grok everything MJD said, but it seemed
|> to mean that 2000 would NOT be a leap year.  Is this correct?
|> --
|> Ben Cox
|> thoth@uiuc.edu

Sigh. Not only does this question get asked, and answered, on this newsgroup
once a week, but apparently it has to be answered in a manner intelligible to
four-year-olds.

So the answer is,

YES.

(or 42, if you prefer).

Now move over to sci.astronomy, which is a more proper newsgroup, and see if
you can get an even clearer answer.

Daan Sandee                                           sandee@think.com
Thinking Machines Corporation
Cambridge, Mass 02142                                 (617) 234-5044
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:39:20 GMT

In article <jbickers.0de2@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>Quoted from <1992Aug16.074623.2955@news.columbia.edu> by lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner):
>
>> the people whose names you used, then you are proving my point:  There are
>> possibly as few as 5 people who actually have a clue as to what a compiler
>
>    Gee, this is a bald-faced lie. The majority of C compilers I've
>    ever used (and I'm just a beginner) have got object module
>    disassemblers, which I've made use of.

Since you apparently understand what you say, you better get Peter's
"permission" to be added to this ever-growing list of the minority of
people who might know something about the code generated by the compilers
they use.

cjl
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12851 alt.3d:894
From: Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff Mccaughan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.3d
Subject: Re: 'Movement' on light and dark screen background.
Date: 19 Aug 92 07:13:42 GMT
Organization: Equinox Networks
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

charette@cheetah.det.dec.com (Mark Charette) writes:
>
>I also wear somwhat thick glasses. Looking at flowers (especially purple)
>sideways through the thickest part of the lens lets me separate the colors.
>
>This tends to make me think the prism effect is what we're seeing.

Hasn't _anyone_ heard of chromatic aberration?

--
Geoff, Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 [4 Lines]
                               Voice: +64 (3) 3852101
        "Hi. You have just entered the fourth dimension. Small isn't it?"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Subject: Re: What You See Is All You Get
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 15:41:35 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <geoffrey.714553942@bAARNie>,
by geoffrey@tafe.sa.edu.au (Geoffrey D. Bennett):
> Does anybody know what the above phrase means?

"What you see is al you get" is a fair criticism of many WYSIWYG
environments.  I have tis problem all the time with students who
say "but professor, I printed it on a laser printerr," in response
to my complaints about the quality of the work they turned in.

Yes, they used MacWrite and MacDraw and a nifty laser printer, but
their text layout was sloppy and their figures were badly drawn.
Typical faults in text include irregular choice of fonts for
headings, irregular spacing between paragraphs, and non-uniform
indentation.  In figures, arrow heads frequently aren't quite
aligned with the line they are supposed to be on and lines that
are supposed to meet at a point don't.

Had they used something like LaTeX, they'd have had a uniform and
fairly good style imposed on their textual work, and their drawings
would have been far nicer looking, but the difficulty of drawing in
LaTeX would probably make them fewer and far between.

Some tools, such as Interleaf, do a fairly good job of giving the
best of both worlds, but when I look at a paper with figures
prepared using interleaf's WYSIWYG drawing tools, it rarely has the
crisp clarity that I expect from a well drawn technical illustration.

				Doug Jones
				jones@cs.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: ao@elixir.e.kth.se (Anders Ohlsson)
Subject: Re: Calendar program (or Phase of The Moon)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, NADA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 11:25:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.111900.19685@kth.se> ao@elixir.e.kth.se (Anders Ohlsson) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>	     YUBA  = Yet Another Bloody Acronym
	     ^^^^

	Sorry...
	Before anyone else tells me, it should of course be YABA.

					/ Anders /
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jerry@truevision.com (Jerry Thompson)
Subject: Re: 'Movement' on light and dark screen background.
Organization: Truevision Inc., Indianapolis, IN
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:07:02 GMT

In article <6578@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> rick@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Fredrick Wilson) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.201730.8489@ccu.umanitoba.ca> grnbrg@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brian Greenberg) writes:
>>In <BswnIE.Dpt@world.std.com> bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum) writes:
>>
>>>Speaking of screen color, I've noticed somthing interesting on a computer
>>>where I work.  The screen display has alternating lines of red and light-blue
>>>text on a dark-blue background.  I wear very thick glasses, and as I move my
>>>head, the red letters seem to move around while the light blue letters stand
>>>still.
>>
>>This is probably caused by the fact that the human eye perceives the red
>>wavelengths slightly [faster|slower] than the blue.  This may cause apparent
>>movement if you shake your head.
>>
>>This theory was used in a Pepsi (?) commercial during the superbowl a few 
>>years ago to produce a 3d effect;  the glasses you had to wear had one lens
>>clear, and the other tinted (Not red and blue style). Objects moving from
>>left to right on the screen looked 'closer' than objects moving from right
>>to left (Or the other way 'round.  Not sure).
>>
>That superbowl halftime show and commercials used the Pulfrich (sp?)
>effect.  It depends on horizontal motion and one eye's view being darker
>than the other.  Color does not effect it.
>

The brain takes longer to process darker images.  There was an article on
this in Scientific American(?) just before those commercials were shown.

-- 
Jerry Thompson                      |     // checks  _________  |"I'm into S&M,
What I want to know is, have you    | \\ //   and    |   |   |  | Sarcasm and
ever seen Claude Rains?   !CCR      |  \X/ balances /_\  |  /_\ | mass sarcasm."
From: bruno@broue.rot.qc.ca (Bruno Majewski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Non Unix-OS's
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:51:37 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Groupe de Recherche Operationnelle en Telecommunication (ROT)
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

magnus@THEP.LU.SE (Magnus Olsson) writes:
: (stuff deleted)
: Today, the scene is completely different. Apart from VMS VAXen and IBM
: mainframes, every computer bigger than a PC seems to be running Unix
: nowadays. 
: 
: 
: So, I wonder, how many non-Unix OS's are still being used on *new*
: multi-user hardware? Of course, there are a lot of old systems,
: running old OS's. And there are lots of microcomputer OS's, but let's
: exclude most of them by defining "OS", I mean multi-tasking, multi-user
: OS. 
(stuff deleted)

I know of two:

1) Alpha Micro's AMOS (feels like TOPS-10 that shrunk in the washer)

2) DataPoint's RMS/XA (has a TRS-80ish flavor to it, actually...)

I am surprised no one remembered these two (OK, who would remember DataPoint?)


Bruno Majewski
(living in Montreal, but with a girlfried and a HiFi setup in Ottawa)
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12624 comp.arch:8926
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch
Subject: Re: comp.arch.history (was Re: Babbage books)
Date: 16 Aug 92 19:56:17 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <34302@cbmvax.commodore.com>, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes:
>>>But he threw the contents of the chamber pots out the windows, didn't
>>>he?
>>
>>Yes, but presumably they were Open Windows (sorry).
> 
> finally pushed me over the edge.  What I'm proposing is to split comp.arch,
> in an attempt to move the discussions of computer architecture history into
> a separate group.  I'm sure there will be some overlap, and discussions that
> 
> 	There have been recurrent long discussions/reminiscences of ancient
> hardware here for years, and it appears to be getting worse (or maybe the
> general volume level is increasing with the internet population, in any case
> it has become a problem IMHO).

I think the problem is the crossposting between alt.folklore.computers and
comp.arch. It's easy to answer a message without redirecting the newsgroups
to omit comp.arch.

Not that I would do such a thing... :-)

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
From: oliver@cs.uwindsor.ca (Timothy Oliver)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computers killing people?  (WAS Re: 9 track data storage???)
Date: 19 Aug 1992 00:51:10 GMT
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada

In article <1992Aug12.163016.11684@cbnews.cb.att.com> lbd@cbnews.cb.att.com (linda.b.dunlap) writes:
>
>I remember hearing a rumor that printers sent to Iraq were programmed to
>upload (something) into radar installations to give erroneous data.
>
>First, is it possible?  Second, anyone else heard such a thing?


No, it is NOT possible.  There are not data lines that go FROM the
printer TO the computer. The only line that go to the computer 
are status lines (in a PARELLEL port).

With a SERIAL port, maybe. But very unlikely. Few printers have
the transmit data line hooked up. But any signal that comes in though
the serial port MUST be read by a programme and any programme that
writes to a serial printer will reject anything other than the paper out
signal, pinter not ready signal, etc.

Timothy Oliver
oliver@cs.uwindsor.ca
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Lunar Lander
From: stern6@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Stern)
Date: 22 Aug 92 16:28:29 GMT
Distribution: na

Sorry, I know this topic was hashed out a few months ago, but does anybody
have BASIC code for Lunar Lander? I would be greatly in your debt if you
would send me a copy.

******************************************************************************
         Michael Stern        *  "I love children, especially when they cry,
                              *   for then someone takes them away."  
   stern6@husc.harvard.edu    *                         -Nancy Mitford
******************************************************************************

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers