From: west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West)
Subject: Re: Ken/Ryu stuff
Organization: University of North Texas, Denton
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 05:59:49 GMT

In article <BxBFBw.HGo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bodom@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>In <1992Nov6.061835.18495@mercury.unt.edu> west@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Bruce West) writes:
   [my original argument deleted, don't want to be redundent]  
>Sorry, but it's you that are braindead.  Ok, maybe any half decent Ken/Guile
>but who's the etc.??  There are more characters the Ken/Guile/Bison.  Who of
>the other 9 do you think can challenge Bison??  That's where the DESIGNED to
>beat everyone comes from.  Oh, Bison can get out of corners.  There are really

   ALL the characters can toast Bison - and his moves leave him open to 
some form of counter from *all* the characters.  More on this later.

>good Bisons here.  You know the kind that get tricky and scissor kick over 
>sonic booms just for fun.   :)   If Bison's in the corner, there's always
>forward sweep + scissor kick, jump straight up and roundhouse (big leg), hell
>even throw with his throwing range.  Only thing is that vs. Ryu/Ken/Guile,

   If Bison is scissoring your sonic boom I would say you are being too
predictable.  As for when I say "in the corner".  I'm talking about Ryu's
fireball fest and similar trapping mechanisms.  He has a real tough time
countering these.  If he did a jumping roudhouse, and you were on the ground,
he is dead.  Open for the combo of your choice.  It call comes back to being
predictable...if you arn't then Bison has a tough time out of a corner.  He
doesn't have a real "move" just for this purpose (ala dragon punch).  His
head stomp goes up to slow for this purpose. 

>Bison can't cheesepedo over his fallen opponent, cuz we all know what's gonna
>happen.  But, for other characters, you might as well hang up your hat.

   Yea he can, you just have to time it right.  Let your tail hit for half
damage.  As for "hang on to your hat" - I think his torpedo hardly compares
to a Ken combo.  In which if a Ken master hits you with a flying fierce the
round *is* over.  You are stunned, and then dead.  Bison takes you down a
couple ticks in energy and winds up close enough to you for you to attempt
retaliation.  Hardly unfair.

>
>Tell me, what's Bison's weakness???   I don't know of one

  *LACK OF MOVE VARIATION*  His 2 major attacks are both forward body
attacks!  Everyone *knows* where you are going to come from.  And if
you wanna head stomp it is telegraphed by your crouch.  No surprises, if 
he is standing he is gonna come straight at you.  Use long range attacks
or come in with roudhouses to counter torpedo.  If he is crouching try
to fake him into a head stomp - be ready.  He is too simple, that is his
greatest weakness.

>
>let's see, he has:
>1) fast jabs
>2) cheesepedo 

*READ THIS*:  I'm gonna tell you all how simple it is to kill the "cheesepedo"
so you can stop bitching:
 Ryu/Ken:  DP! Very simple.  Or fireball.  Or Hurricane in close as it starts.
 Guile:  Razor kick.  Sonic boom.  "fag skip" in close as it starts.
 Z: Lariat.  Into an SDP as he falls.  Z rocks Bison, btw.
 Chun: Head Stomp on front half on torpedo.  Forward kick into head.         
       Lightning kick (1000 foot kick, whatever).
 Sagat: forgot him.  Same as ken.  Flying knee into Bison as it starts (close).
 Blanka: Flying roundhouse into head. Claw into head. Ball as it starts.
 Honda: Flying roundhouse.  Close 1000 hand slap or jab torpedos make it   
        impossible to start.
 Balrog: Punch his ass.  Flying punch into him as it starts.
 Vega: Roundhouse into him.  Backward somersault will let him pass through you
       and let you throw him when he is done :)  Well timed screaming eagle
       will throw Bison outta his flam.
 Dhalsim:  Fireballs.  Screwdrivers will keep him from starting it.
FOR ALL CHARACTERS:  Hitting him in the head will stop it.  Or, as it seems
 many are incapable of grasping this -- JUMP FOOL!  Ryu can fireball you 10
times and you take damage, but nobody complains cause its spread out.  If you
are dumb enough to let someone hit you with a flam - take your 4 blocked 
FBs worth of damage!  JESUS!
 
>  a) use it to penetrate your opponent for major damage

   If you consider near an inch major damage, I don't know where you play.
For all who don't know here is a simple counter to the TORpedo - BLOCK.
So many people try to counter it, they suck, get hit - so I'm gonna try
that again.  And the same thing happens.  And they bitch.  Take your medicine.
Bison will be near the corner.  Pin him in and kick his ass - simple.

>  b) flatten anyone who dares to jump at you

   Much like a Dragon punch, razor kick, or jumping roundhouse?  Not to
mention the kick to the head will stop the torpedo as it comes out - which
is more than I can say for a dragon punch or razor kick.

>  c) counter ball attacks

   If Blanka and Bison are half a screen away - and both go for a fierce
torpedo attack at each other.. Blanka will get there first and level Bison.
But true, head to head Bison will win - much like Honda does.

>  d) hell, the el-cheapo move.    strong cheese, throw   (real gooey)

   Easy to counter.  Roundhouse throw with Ken/Ryu.  Strong throw well
timed from any other character.  SPD will work.  So will Razor kick.

>3) scissors kick   (block it and you lose energy.  can jump from far away)

    This does a little less damage blocked then a blocked DP.  Quit
winning.  You counter this the same as any standing kick.  Didn't you guys
ever play Bison on SFII Clasic?  I remember how everybody thought the last
guy was "so easy".

>4) head stomp  (Ken's delay time is too much.   a fireball and he gets stomped)

    Takes *perfect* anticipation/timing to do this.  Maybe don't throw fireballs
while Bison is obviously charging for it and waiting?  Just a thought.

>5) good overall speed

    *laugh*.  Now *THIS* is the proof that Bison was designed to be supirior.
He is in the middle of the speed race.  He's about up there with Guile.

>6) good aerial priority

    Does this mean his kick beats whomever you play? aerial priority means
next to nothing - you have to guess if you wanna kick or punch is the
thing.  And his air attacks are very quick (retraction).  If you do it
to early you're coming down naked.

>7) excellent throwing range   (does good damage, too)

    Once again, average - right in the middle.

>8) jumps VERY high   (knocks all those Vegas off the machine   :)  )

   WAY to long hang time.  FB/DP "tick" works extremely well on him.  HE
is almost in capable of being effective FROM the air.  Takes him way to
long to get to ya (if you are on the ground).

>
>
>Granted, I don't play Bison, but I can beat anyone with Bison, but I don't 
>cuz it's no fun. 

    LAUGH.  Now this is real funny.  I've got 10 to 1 I could kill you using 
Bison.  Or Chun Li for that matter (the anti-Bison for those who don't know).
 
>
>Bison, in the hands of master, will beat ANYONE

   A Bison master has a *Real* tough time v. Z, Chun, Ken/Ryu, Guile. 

>-- 
>Brian T Odom