HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Two Paths for Environmentalism
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:54:59 GMT

In article <9209091837.AA13849@hpindbu.cup.hp.com> Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm> writes:

>One point of clarification to prevent a possible confusion. When I speak of
>indigenous societies being at ecological equilibrium with their environments,
>I am thinking of self-sufficient cultures which can live in an ecosystem for
>a very long time without degrading it -- e.g. the contemporary Yanomami, the
>traditional Haida. This implies certain constraints on reproduction rates and
>resource utilization which by no means need apply to life on a contempory
>reservation. A modern reservation is not after all a refined result of
>millennia of cultural and social evolution, but a comparatively recent
>imposition. There is no particular reason why reservation life *should* be
>at equilibrium with any natural ecosystem, except to the extent that old
>cultural traditions which once served to preserve such equilibria may continue
>to function.

>Also, I do not claim that *every* indigenous culture that ever existed was
>at ecological equilibrium; there may have been quite a few which were not.
>They just didn't leave many descendent groups, since their environmnents
>became less productive with time.

I think you are ignoring the more important factors here.  "indigenous cultures"
(what other kind is there?) didn't have long-lasting environmental effects
primarily because they could do littler more than try to scratch out enought
food to stay alive.  Their lack of science and technology prevented them
from having a tiny impact on the world.  Without tools to change the world,
there will be little change.

--Brian

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: mad-celt@cwis.unomaha.edu (Andrew Patrick Booth)
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:09:18 GMT


I think this is an intelligent proposal.  Although I think the split will cause
some initial difficulties for some, I think in the end it's worth any trouble,
to increase the exchange of information to both Usenet and NativeNet.  The 
exploitation of indigenous people has to stop.  Education is the most important
tool in stopping the explotation.
--
- Maelstrom the Mad Celt -      * SOUND News and Arts magazine is available via
(mad-celt@cwis.unomaha.edu)     * anon. FTP: quartz.rutgers.edu (/pub/journals)
Andy Booth - SOUND News & Arts  * or email from (ed@cwis.unomaha.edu).  Soon to
"Evolution follows the storm."  * return to GOPHER.  Art and writing welcome.
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 03:45:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.000244.23707@midway.uchicago.edu>
	elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

> I *do* have a technical objection:
> 
> >  3. alt.native.1492
> 
> Anything in a spool directory called "/usr/spool/news/alt/native/1492"
> is going to be interpreted as an article, not a directory.  You'll have
> to come up with a non-numeric subhierarchy name.

Ellen's point is a good one.  I got a note from David Lawrence at UUNET a
couple of days ago to the same effect.  I accept the suggestion, and hereby
amend my proposal to say that I would like to suggest a Usenet newsgroup to
carry the contents of the NAT-1492 mailing list - but I'm not sure yet what
it should be called.  I'll post an article with a suggestion after I've had
a chance toink about the matter some more.

Thanks to both Ellen and David for pointing out this potential problem.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: pattisan@midiline.la.ca.us (Patti Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: N-L: Algonquin Beliefs books
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:23:52 PDT
Organization: MIDILine BBS - Altadena, CA - (818) 797-3285

randy@midiline.la.ca.us (randy cartwright) writes:

> Original-Date:   Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:28:36 GMT
> Original-Sender: randy@midiline.la.ca.us (randy cartwright)
> 
> [ This article is being relayed from the Usenet "alt.native" newsgroup. ]
> 
> I'm looking for books describing the beliefs of Algonquin
> speaking tribes of the Eastern Woodlands. Specifically the
> Powhatans but I know there isn't much accurate information
> about them so information about related tribes would be
> of help.
    Have you tried the Smithsonian in D.C. and the National geographic??
If I think of anyplace else I'll post it...
  Gee we're in the same town...and on the same BBS! If you want we could 
probably speak on the phone!!!! or keep writing this way..I'd like to keep
up with you on this,if I may....
   We have Mohawk and Seminole in our family tree..along with many other
ethnicities...
   HO!
From: brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: NOTICE:"Bigfoot/Sasquatch" Sightings Request
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:39:28 GMT
Organization: Space Systems/Loral

!! "A large creature about 7 1/2 to 8 foot tall. It was greyish black in color,
!! and as it went away from me I seen the backside of it walking as a man would
!! walk on it's hind legs."- Former Sheriff Oliver Potter, Vancouver,
!! Washington
!! The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list?
!! Amiga!

I know this guy... He rides a 72 Harley Hardtail and straightens scrap rebar
with his bare hands for a living. He thinks shaving is a term reserved for
loansharks. He hangs out in the woods because only the trees say nice things
to him... not that trees are rude to anybody, even loggers, the tree people
are far more civil than humans. 
I know the gal who had his baby as seen on the cover of the tabloid everybody
ignores, even if they buy it and read it. No significant comment except she
thinks the world of him.
This is as serious a reply as I can come up with.

-- 
Columbus didn't even `discover' that he got lost by 8,000 miles!
brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: dl1@ukc.ac.uk (Duncan Langford)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Navajo jewelery mailorder?
Date: 6 Sep 92 19:36:37 GMT
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

My apologies if this is the wrong group for this request; if so,
please tell me the right one!

My partner loves Navajo jewelery, but by the time it gets to the UK
it's passed through so many 'middle men' that the price is out of
her reach.

Does anyone know of a mailorder company who would sell to the UK? We'd
prefer to deal as close to the maker as possible - not only for
financial reasons.

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.

- duncan
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!ucs.indiana.edu!PLWAGONE
Subject: Rhodes' Law
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:40:34 GMT

Original-Sender: ucs.indiana.edu!PLWAGONE

Thanks Lyn...

Rhodes Law will be an excellent analytical tool for me this semester
as I weave my way through Indian Law at the law school here at IU.
It pretty much is the rationale for all the cases I've struggled with
so far!

With respect to your comments about the most recent thread...I have
come to appreciate the delete function on my keyboard.  It's not that
I'm not interested in the topic, I just think I get enough of that
in school (using the dictionary, etc.) and life is too short to be
spending it in Wonderland, if you know what I mean.  The purpose
of expanding one's mind, in my humble opinion, is to come down from
abstraction, no matter how intellectually stimulating and pleasant
it may be for us in the academy to compete with our peers through
the use of charming rhetoric, into a reality as it exists for people
who could benefit from a practical application of our lofty musings.

I know Peter d"Errico is laughing himself silly about now because I
have learned something somehow since his last class...he used to get
such a kick out of my abstractness and pointed out to me that sometimes
such abstractions serve to reinforce needless separations between me
and those I wish to communicate with in a productive manner.

Thanks Lyn and Peter and Peshewegunzh and Alan for a needed lesson
in what's important!!!

Adios...

Paula

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: German Physics
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:24:43 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

 Art Souther askes:
> Is it ridiculous to suggest that we try to define those general
> beliefs and principles we share, and then consider what concrete steps
> we can begin to take to realize those beliefs? What steps can we take
> to assure viable ecosystems and viable native cultures, and to what
> degree can these steps be mutually reinforcing?

I'd be delighted if the discussion were to shift in this direction, especially
if more people got involved in it.

I've already hinted at my views -- some sort of global compact is needed for
the mutual security of all ecosystems and sovereign human groups: we can't
say, "OK, Yanomami, you're sovereign now" and leave them to the tender mercies
of the international timber mafia to protect their own ecosystem. We all have
a shared responsibility to see to it that their sovereignty *can* work, and
a shared concern as citizens of the biosphere to see to it that their
ecosystems, which are interlinked with others, can remain healthy. This later
interest is one we share with other species as well as with other humans:
other species of course can't express their interests in the verbal
"codifications" which politicians and ideologues so enjoy, but they express
them, for anyone who cares to look, in the survival requirements of their
evolved niches.

That is an awfully general starting point, I know it well. But I believe that
the overall framework of compact for the planet has to be thought through at
the same time that separate (or to be separate) soveriegn groups think through
their own arrangements. If both are not done jointly, we risk a tilt one way or
another: towards weak and exploitable sovereignties if too little thought goes
into the planetary compact on the one hand or towards a monocultural global
imperialism on the other hand if all attention is on collective security.

I also think that it is absolutely crucial in such deliberation that the
interests of nonhuman species be represented in a fundamental way, though how
that is best accomplished is far from self-evident.


------------
Alan McGowen
From: alanm@igc.apc.org (Alan McGowen)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Two Paths for Environmentalism
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:40:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1685C10469.CCEN077@uslvm.usl.edu:-1665750992:cdp:1308200066:000:1217
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!alanm    Sep 14 08:40:00 1992


Brian asserts that the reason that indegenous people don't destroy
their environments is because they can't, technologically. But they
could, and sometimes did: consider Easter Island, for example. The
point I was making is adressed to the difference between Easter
Island and, say, the Queen Charlotte Islands (Haida Gwai), which
still have an extremely diverse ecosystem after more than 7,000
years of human habitation. Given that humans have an intrinsic
fertility sufficient to at least double their numbers in each
generation, even a little power to fell trees is sufficient to
add up to a devastating impact within a few generations unless
somehow it is restrained. Now the Haida had an even richer
environment than the Easter Islanders, so they were *less*
food-limited. 

What then? The only possibility is culture -- a cultural difference
in resource utilization and reproduction rate. Any difference
in "technology" is a result of this, and not an indpendent
cause of Haida ecological sanity.

It interests me that many people are eager to argue that the
only reason native people didn't trash the landscape was
because they couldn't. Rather absolves us of any responsibility,
no?

-----------
Alan McGowen
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!tamvm1.tamu.edu!UNHH.UNH.EDU!"UNHF: :SA_WBADGLEY" (Bill - Comp. Svcs - x2417)
Subject: Environment and native issues
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:43:27 GMT

Original-Sender: W_BADGLEY@UNHH.UNH.EDU

    Relevant to the discussion of possible connections between environmental
groups and native populations is an article in the September/October issue of
the magazine put out by The Nature Conservancy (TNC).  Apparently, TNC's own
staffperson, Donna House, a botanist and Navaho, is spearheading the effort
to work with the Tohono O'odham (Papago) in Arizona on a project to protect
some endanagered plant species.  That such collaborations are new and
potentially difficult is reflected in TNC's own words and numbers: "These are
cautious explorations on both sides ....  For the Conservancy, its standard
tack for saving land and species sometimes runs aground in the complex currents
of Indian government and culture.  There are more than 500 tribes owning about
100 million acres in the United States.  So far, about a dozen of them have met
with the Conservancy to talk biodiversity."

Bill Badgley
W_BADGLEY@UNHH.UNH.EDU

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Peshewegunzh <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>
Subject: Re:  A Place of Their Own
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 11:18:43 GMT

Original-Sender: Peshewegunzh <mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia!peshe>

Marianne, I do think Indians have a unique cultural history and
viewpoint. To me, the caution in your "universal" is that it
justifies imposing the current culture of the larger American
society, which in itself is hardly universal or timeless, on a
smaller one without its approval necessarily. I believe that this
is a result of sincere idealism and belief that yours are the
authentic human standards, in your case, and that you have given
it more thought than most. Thus, while disagreeing as I have in
the past with you on certain societal goals, I would hardly
characterize you as oafish!

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peshewegunzh

peshe%mamia.UUCP@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
mthvax.cs.miami.edu!mamia.UUCP!peshe
peshe@mamia.UUCP
mthvax!mamia!peshe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: myahgula@questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Michael Yahgulanaas)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: TESTING
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 14:58:03 PDT
Organization: Questor|Free Usenet News|Vancouver, BC: +1 604 681 0670

TEST FROM HAIDA gWAII/s


--
  Michael Yahgulanaas (myahgula@questor.wimsey.bc.ca)
    | QUESTOR:  Free Dial-in Public Access to Usenet Health, Medical News |
    | & AIDS forums, and Info on Global Environment at  +1 604  681 0670. |
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:28:52 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

[wants to split alt.native]

>My initial proposal is as follows...

> list name   Usenet newsgroup  topic

>  NATIVE-L   alt.native.info   general news and information
>  NATCHAT    alt.native.chat   discussion and debate
>  NAT-1492   alt.native.1492   Columbus quincent. / Year for Indigenous People
>  NAT-EDU    alt.native.edu    educational issues (info and discussion)
>  nn.lang    alt.native.lang   languages of indigenous peoples (info & disc)

According to our logs, alt.native was created 22 months ago and
has received 1567 articles since then.  That's a little over two
articles per day.

Given this, there is absolutely no justification for splitting the
group, especially a five-way split.  Even with all of these lists
gatewayed into the same group it would be trivial for an interested
person to follow things.
-- 
Kenneth Herron                                           kherron@ms.uky.edu
University of Kentucky                                      +1 606 257 2975
Department of Mathematics           "Thanks to the magic of the slow-motion 
camera, we can now show you how ugly the inside of someone's mouth can be."
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: jack@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Jack Kobzeff)
Subject: Re: Two Paths for Environmentalism
Followup-To: alt.native
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:28:23 GMT

In article <9209081749.AA08096@hpindbu.cup.hp.com>, Alan McGowen
<beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm> wrote:
> 
> Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
> 
> >
> Peshewegunzh wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sadly, the Sierra Club for this area issued a news release
> > just before the hurricane struck, which was exultant that a
> > hurricane was hitting this area, so that nature would correct (destroy) what
> > man had destroyed (built).
> 
> Perhaps some quotation, providing enough context for the reader to form
> a judgement as to what the news release might have said, would help here.
> Or was the author's opinion formed only from news reports *about* the
> Sierra Club press release? Though one occasionally encounters pieces in
> the journal Earth First! which could be construed in such a way, it is
> unlikely that one of the most politically successful conservation 
> organizations in the country would noise abroad such an unpopular line. By any > chance, were hints of electoral politics involved? Any related mention of 
> "environmental extremists" and certain senators from Tennessee?

I have to agree with the above. There is no way that anyone 'in charge' at
the Sierra Club would issue a stupid statement like that, or if they did,
they would be chastised by the national organization. Some individuals
might say something rash like this statement, but the tone of the statement
(according to the original poster) reads very much like an Earth First
statement.

(I am just a SC member.)

Jack Kobzeff     (jack@jato.jpl.nasa.gov)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.config
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: Call for Discussion on "alt.native" split
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 04:15:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.214332.7868@wdl.loral.com> brunner@lakota.ssd.loral.com
	(Brian Brunner) writes:

> 1: alt.native should be soc.culture
> 	It has a wider distribution among USENET sites than alt.XXX
> 	it is a proper soc.culture interest

I agree, and am willing to support the notion of making alt.native a mainstream
newsgroup if we can get volunteers to handle the formalities (call for discus-
sion, call for votes, vote counting, posting reminders, etc., etc.), since I
don't have the energy.

> 2: to conform (_sometimes_ useful) to the usenet naming norm,
> 	alt.native should become
> 	soc.culture.amerind; replacing alt.native.info

(etc.)

Please take another look at the charter for my proposed alt.native.info:

  1. alt.native.info

     To carry information pertaining to indigenous populations in all
     parts of the world, particularly with regard to issues having to
     do with the well-being of current members of those populations.
     Subjects pertaining to the traditions and cultures (exclusive of
     language, which is dealt with in a separate newsgroup [see below])
     will also be appropriate to this newsgroup.  This newsgroup will
     be linked with the NATIVE-L list at TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU.

We are not talking only about American Indians here (as Brian should know,
since he is on several of the NativeNet mailing lists).

I could accept:

	soc.native
	soc.native.d
	soc.native.edu
	soc.native.lang
	soc.native.<whatever>  (as a replacement for soc.native.1492 -
				see my article elsewhere on that subject)

> 	Further: This idea needs to be propounded in the "proper"
> 	forum, news.groups...

Assuming we decide to attempt to make this a mainstream newsgroup proposal.
Are there any volunteers to help with this project?

> Whether each of these divisions merits a group of its'
> own is subject of the debate that would (in the normal
> scheme of things) occur in news.groups.

This very fact is one reason why it would be easier to leave these groups
under the "alt." hierarchy - since it would be very difficult to get a
series of mainstream newsgroups approved, whereas it would be relatively
easy (I hope) to create them as "alt." groups.

Gary

P.S.  Brian (and others) - please cross-post your responses to alt.config,
      so that those reading our exchanges there will have the benefit of
      our discussion.  Thanks.
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: CCEN077@USLVM.USL.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Two Paths for Environmentalism
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:31:05 GMT
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana

You mentioned in your post the effects of Andrew on the Everglades, and seeing
the devastation it wreaked.  I too live in an area hit, although not quite as
badly, and have been wondering about the effects on the swamps in the
Atchafalaya Basin as well as the Everglades, but have seen absolutely no news
coverage on it.  Although there are few natural areas near my home accessable
except by boat, I have noticed that all birds' nests are gone and there is a
rank smell coming from the bayou by my home.  Do you know if there has been
anything published about the effects of the hurricane on nature, or can you
share anything on what you've observed?
 
                               Thanks!
                                              Ellen
From: tertium@milton.u.washington.edu (l boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Two Paths for Environmentalism
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:49:13 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

CCEN077@USLVM.USL.EDU writes:

>You mentioned in your post the effects of Andrew on the Everglades, and seeing
>the devastation it wreaked.  I too live in an area hit, although not quite as
>badly, and have been wondering about the effects on the swamps in the
>Atchafalaya Basin as well as the Everglades, but have seen absolutely no news
>coverage on it.  Although there are few natural areas near my home accessable
>except by boat, I have noticed that all birds' nests are gone and there is a
>rank smell coming from the bayou by my home.  Do you know if there has been
>anything published about the effects of the hurricane on nature, or can you
>share anything on what you've observed?
> 
>                               Thanks!
>                                              Ellen


There was a small bit on the news last night.  The birds, apparently, are 
coming back, as are many of the other species.

The primary concern is habitat.  The native trees and plants that were 
wiped out are slow-growing, and a non-native and very aggressive variety
of tree might take over.  Such a change in habitat will, no doubt, result
in a major restructuring of the native wildlife populations.

Lauren Boyd 
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re:  Darwinism, social and otherwise
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:09:42 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

 Lyn Dearborn writes:
>
> As a non-Native American, what do you see as your own role in politics?
> Eliminating shameless waste of tax dollars to celebrate the life of this
> murdering explorer would be my wished-for collective role in politics -- that
> and eliminating the entire Republican Party....

As a non-native American, I heartily endorse this good suggestion from Lyn,
especially the last bit... :-)

Don't forget it in November.

------------
Alan McGowen

Xref: sparky alt.native:1038 alt.config:5775