From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 1 Jan 93 22:39:19 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:

>   Hans Rancke wrote:

>HR>>I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part
>HR>>of the western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I
>HR>>suggest that a substantial case could be made. This means
>HR>>Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy, and I even look askance at most
>HR>>of Germany....

>HR>I'd very much like to know what culture you define medieval Scandinavia
>HR>to be part of.

>Barbarian fringe, like the Arabs and the Slavs (and quite a few of the
>Germans), with 'western culture' gradually seeping in on the backs of
>Christian missionaries (oops, sorry, used the C-word by mistake...).

It's true that the North got 'westernized' by Christian missionaries and
other influences from the south, but that was centuries before heraldry
became prevalent in Western Culture. By the 12th Century the Nordic
countries was as much part of Western Culture as France, England, and
Scotland.

>Feudalism is a good indicator; its degree of prevalence indicates the
>core of "medieval" culture.

In just what way does the Danish feudal system differ from the French/
English that is so significant?

>HR>Germany and Scandinavia were very much part of western culture.

>Only in the same way that the Mongols were very much a part of Asian
>culture.

This sounds marveloussly witty, but what does it mean? Pleace elucidate.

>HR>The impression I've gotten is that you mostly follow English practices,
>HR>which on the evidence appears to be the exception (As opposed to most
>HR>other Western European countries).

>Actually, I mostly prefer Scottish practices, which were modelled on
>French practices. (Unless the "you" in the above sentence was intended to
>refer to the College of Arms in general? In which case it is probably an
>accurate assessment.)

By 'you' I meant the SCA as a whole (remember, I said it was an impression.)

>HR>>The College of Arms (to a lesser extent than I do) focuses on the
>HR>>practices of the "core" of feudal civilization: south of the Trent,
>HR>>north of the Loire, west of the Rhine. You seem to perceive "western
>HR>>Europe" as some sort of homogenized mass, from which any cupful is
>HR>>identical to any other cupful. Not so.

>HR>I should like some evidence to support the contention that the area you
>HR>describe is somehow the core of feudal civilization.

>Marc Bloch, *Feudal Society*", esp. c. XIII "General Survey of Europe".
>Feudalism developed its highest forms feeding on the fragments of the
>Carolingian empire; England was dragged in when the Normans imposed French
>institutions on the Anglo-Saxons. F.L. Ganshoff spends about 40% of his
>"Feudalism", the other standard work on the subject, discussing
>"Carolingian feudalism" (Part II). A thorough reading of both books would
>well repay the time spent, and adequately substantiate my position.

I'll put them on my reading list. For the moment I'll accept that your
preferred area is the core of feudal civilization. Now please explain
the difference between heraldic practices in the core and on the fringes
and explain why the practices of the core is more valid than the practices
of the fringe. Certainly the heraldic practices of Denmark, Norway, Sweden,
and Germany is no less vigorous than those of France, England, and Scotland.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)
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