From: inb@creare.creare.com (Ian Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Improvisation!
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:58:18 GMT
Reply-To: inb@creare.UUCP (Ian Brown)
Organization: Creare Inc., Hanover, NH

In article <1992Aug24.132239.58350@cc.usu.edu> sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>In article <1992Aug23.195043.1@wharton.upenn.edu>, 
>  millerl@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>> In article <1992Aug21.134453.58310@cc.usu.edu>, 
>  sl9b4@cc.usu.edu (Deep Six) writes:
>>> If the GM is ``in charge'' of the players reality, should the players 
>>> have a role in determining what reality is? No.

If the GM *is* in charge, then I'd agree with you.  Personally, I think the GM
is there to provide enough background for the players to enjoy themselves.  No
person is capable of truly being God (in the sense of being omnipotent), so we
GMs are bound to miss things, sometimes, that our players will see.  When this
happens, I think that it is better to adapt the 'reality' in the game to
account for what was missed, rather than ignore it.

>> This is where Chadd and I disagree, and I think this is the essence of
>> the disagreement between Chadd and Dennis on one hand and Elizabeth,
>> Larry, and Steven on the other.
>> 
>> IMHO, the players sometimes must affect the GM's decisions in making
>> scenarios. I don't think it is a bad thing, and it is necessary.
>
>Sorry, but I don't think you've captured the essense of the disagreement
>here. Those on the improv side of this have been saying that they DON'T 
>let their players impact the GM's decisions.

I've read several things that say otherwise.

>They have been arguing that 
>improv GMing does not allow an unbalancing degree of player influence to 
>occur.

That is a different statement altogether and is probably closer to what they
have been saying.  I think that question is really *what* degree of influence
is unbalancing, or perhaps, what *kind* of influence.

>On the question of if players should directly influence a GM's 
>decision, I think improv and prep GMs agree: the players interact with 
>their surroundings, but they shouldn't be ``advising'' the GM. The thread
>hasn't asked SHOULD the players influence the GM, the discussion has been 
>on if one style of GMing allows more player influence to occur.

Clearly improv allows more player influence to occur.  If a player feels that
something isn't reasonable in one of my games, I *expect* them to advise of the
fact.  I don't allow them to sidetrack the game into a discussion of whether or
not something is reasonable, however.  If they can present a convincing
argument in a short statement, I'll take their advice, if not, I'll tell them
that I don't agree and why and leave it at that.  If a player disagrees
strongly, the game will probably end there (which may very well be the best
thing.)

I also am happy to take something that a player does or says and use it.  I try
to tie everything together in a logical way, at least in my own mind and have
had plenty of people think that I'd had the idea all along.

>> I also don't think the 3 to 6 hours of prep per game session sounds as
>> fun as Chadd must think it is. When I'm forced into that much prep work
>> it turns me off of gaming; I play to have fun, not to work.
>
>I'm only able to play 3 times a month (if I'm lucky), so the prep time is
>well worth it. Further, I don't see the prep time as work. I love to draw
>maps and think up strategies and stories. It's almost as fun as the actual
>game, sometimes. 

While I've sometimes enjoyed making maps and thinking up background info, I
don't usually have much success with thinking through stories.  To me it tends
to be work and wasted work at that.  However, I'd be glad if someone could
suggest ways of coming up with stories that do work during an actual game
(usually the people I have played with have had such different perspectives on
things that complete story ideas tend to be boring for them.)

>You know what would be work IMO? Trying to dicker and barter with a GM 
>about details of a scenario that hasn't been conceived yet.

Have you played with a good improv GM?  I ask because you seem to think that
there would be a lot of dickering and bartering going on, but don't sound like
you've actually seen it.  I'll admit to not having seen all of this
discussion (although I've read quite a bit of it), so I may have missed
something.

Anyway, if you haven't played with an improv GM, and would be willing to give
it a try by eMail, I'd be happy to run a game for you and anyone else who'd
like to experience it - note; I'm not specifically looking to run another game,
since I'm running two and playing in one, plus several eMail leagues, such as
soccer and hockey, so consider this offer to be open only to a small group
fromthe prep camp.  Maybe once one of my existing games finishes, I'll have
time to handle a larger group.

-- 
Ian Brown
inb@creare.com