From: fbmy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:08:07 EST
Distribution: world,soc
Organization: Cornell University

In article <sN05TB1w163w@peewee>,
peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer) writes: 
> 	 
> You're talking about sex, because that's the only thing important to gay
> people.  
Are you clueless ?  You have heard here from several people all stating to you
the contrary.  You have offered no evidence to support your opinion.  You have
no direct experience to base this opinion on (or do you? and more telling would
you admit it if you had?)  unlike some of the several who have responded to
you.  You continue to ignore my last post on this where I clearly stated that
legalizing sodomy is not enough to ensure the equal rights of gay people but
only the beginning.  You have chastised      many on this newsgroup for not
being able to listen to different opinions and to not be able to change their
minds.  Yet you refuse to question your own opinion on a subject you have done
little to educate yourself about, with which you seem to have no direct
experience, and this in the face of several peoples statements with
considerable education and/or experience on this issue.

The only reason I can think of for your continued ignorance as to the reality
that gay relationships have all the components of straight relationships, is
that if you finally had to come to terms with this fact you would be forced to
acknowledge that gay relationships have just as much worth as straight ones. 
And this would lead to your challenging your homophobia and heterosexism, from
which you would either find another fallacy to hide your fear/hatred behind or
you would have to acknowledge your bigotry.

> It's no coincidence that everyone who gets AIDS is gay.
And it's no fact either. (See below for a refutation of your lie.)

| Magic is bi
Highly speculative and totally irrelevant.

| (same thing as gay)             
NOT!

> prediction right here: Dick Sargent will die soon... and you heard it here
| first.
My, aren't you so eager to sound that death nell!?

[more garbage about gays being killed from AIDS because being gay is wrong, and
if, gays would convert, they wouldn't get AIDS]
Stromer, I'll say it again.  You are the one always on this group harping for
people to educate themselves about their positions before babbling it to net
world.  Obviously you're not only a homophobe but a hypocrite to boot (big
suprise there).  Read just about any AIDS article and you will see that it's
not just the gay men you so fear that are dying from AIDS in record numbers,
but the drug users you so passionately defend here as well.  Using your above
logic, simply, gays get AIDS because being gay is wrong, what have you just
implied about drug use/users?  That drug use is wrong?  Maybe time to rethink
your statement above?  Or are you going to continue to ignore the fact that
drug users are getting AIDS at an alarming rate?  Are you going to try to
"clarify" your drug use position by saying you were only talking about non-iv
drug use? Are you going to go completely off the subject again and start
talking about needle-exchange programs?  Take a HUGE HUGE HINT and get some
real AIDS education, and stop depending on      this net to do all your
educating for you!

One more point about        the "gays get AIDS cause they're gay" garbage
you're espousing.  AIDS has NOT extensively hit the lesbian community.  So by
your above logic, is lesbianism ok? Furthermore, AIDS is spreading faster in
and has claimed more of the straight community than the lesbian community.  So
does that mean that lesbianism is "more correct" than heterosexuality?  Can you
finally see the total lunacy of your above argument?  And what about the
total decimation of many areas of Africa by AIDS?  Do you extend your logic to
Africa?  Do you say that AIDS is decimating African peoples because they are
somehow "wrong"?

>  
> People are BORN black.  People are not BORN gay.  Your parents were normal,
> and so should you be.  It's a false analogy to equate being gay with being
> black.  You're gonna get AIDS if you don't straighten up and fly right.
> Don't blame me when it happens.  But I respect your rights as an individual
> to do as you please.  I don't advocate harm or violence toward your or your
> group.
Actually it is a quite apt analogy as anyone who has read the history of both
gays and blacks in this country could tell you.  See below for more
explanation, but suffice it to say that alot of the shit gays are getting
is eerily reminiscent of what was/is being done to the black community.  Try
finding and viewing a copy of the documentary "Times of Harvey Milk", and just
try not to think of Rodney King and the LA riots.

And I'm sure you'll love this next analogy.  First of all your statement
"people are not born gay" remains unproven, although more and more evidence is
suggesting that it is completely false.  Some think people are born gay, others
think it is purely environmental conditioning, still others (myself amoung
them) say the whole issue is irrelevant (and reminiscent of the eugenic driven
studies of african americans in the early part of this century to try to
determine what made people black (and how this "blackness gene" made them
inferior.  Again if you'd only read some history...)).  Second, contrary to
your statement, not all gay people's parents are straight (I am assuming that
that is what you ignorantly meant by the term "normal".  And yet you deny your
heterosexism time and time again. tsk tsk).

Now the analogy.  I have heard many people (Jewish and other) say that Jews are
a race and still other people (again Jewish and other) say that being a Jew is
just a religious thing.  Yes, most people who are Jewish also had Jewish
parents but that is not universal in the Jewish community (last I heard, one
could still convert to Judaism).  Once again by your own logic above, 
1. if people aren't born "XYZ"
2. and if XYZ people's parents aren't XYZ                                  
3. then it is wrong for people to be XYZ
4. and if they don't stop being XYZ they deserve to die of AIDS.
Try substituting Jew/Jewish for XYZ (or drug users) and see if you still want
to support your above logic/statements.

Finally this BULLSHIT as to you "not advocating harm..." to the gay community: 
in case you had a momentary memory lapse about what you had just written, you
said if gays don't "go straight" they deserve to get AIDS.  Again, last time I
checked AIDS was a very big harm.  Also, in the little substitution exercise
above, if someone had just uttered phrases 1 through 4 with Jew/Jewish in place
of XYZ would you think they meant no harm?

> 	>"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
> 	>-Joseph Beam_
And it cannot be repeated enough!

> Is he the guy that produced that EXTREMELY DISGUSTING PBS show called
> "Tongues Untied"?  He should be shot for that GROSS waste of taxpayers'
> money.
More violence against gay men advocated by Mr. "free speech at all costs"
Stromer because someone's saying something he doesn't like.  And don't pull out
your tired "I don't think gov't should fund any art/pbs/etc." crap again to
change the subject and try to get yourself off the hook you just put yourself
on.  Truth is, in all these arguments, if that was all you were trying to say
there would be no need to (and would make for a stronger argument if you
didn't) include your extranneous, deliberately inflammatory opinions.  Again,
your logic above is, if Phillip Stromer thinks its disgusting, then it is a
waste of money, and violence should be done to those who instigated this
"waste".  So glad not everyone buys into this (although, unfortunately too many
do).

Stromer, the only reason you have given for not outlawing discrimination
against gays (and in your AIDS views it becomes clear that this is just a nice
way of putting your true feelings that not only should discrimination not be
outlawed but it should be used to "convert" them) is that you don't like gays.
This is not reasoning, logically arguing your point, but pure hatemongering.

A. Kowalchuk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american