From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Subject: Re: Is there a difference among insistence, harassment and rape?
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Organization: Prifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:19:03 GMT
	<24JUL199207433737@erich.triumf.ca>
	<1992Jul29.191026.7735@ucc.su.OZ.AU> <2A786B6B.17268@ics.uci.edu>
	<robert.713050512@labyrinth>
	<MUFFY.92Aug15174439@remarque.berkeley.edu> <PCG.92
	<9208271854.AA21148@mica.berkeley.edu>

On 27 Aug 92 19:37:44 GMT, muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) said:

muffy> I was not trying to say that being "pestered" into sex was
muffy> equivalent to rape, I was just trying to say that there *is* a
muffy> feeling of being threatened and a feeling that it might be better
muffy> to do something like choose to have sex than to resist and
			    ^^^^^^
muffy> possibly have some sort of problem.

Ah yes, I understood that, but it is important to draw a line between
situations where one *has* a choice and those where one's choice is
preempted by _criminal_ actions.

The fact that you used what I think is an inappropriate analogy (by
giving the impression that pestering was being assimilated to holding
somebody prisoner in a trap) had made me somewhat wary, as it seemed
that your point did not reduce only to the statement that some/many
women feel threatened by pestering.

It's also sad that some women prefer to concede sex rather than endure
some discomfort, and especially that some men put them in such a
position that they want to make such a choice. But as long as they are
both grown ups, that's their problem, or maybe a problem of good manners
and feeling more secure.

muffy> In the same way, if someone on the street asked you for change
muffy> several times, following you down the street very close to you,
muffy> you might feel sufficiently threatened to give them the money,
muffy> even if you don't *really* think that they're going to attack
muffy> you.

I was thinking about precisely the same sort of example myself. This is
quite a bit more appropriate than the trap analogy. Incidentally some
people would not say they felt 'threatened' in that situation, but
rather 'annoyed', and would not regard giving the money as a way to
escape a threat, but as a way to buy tranquility.

  Incidentally ost people that ask for money, be they University
  Presidents for an endowment or beggars for a dollar, know that women
  yield more easily to insistent requests and this may be either because
  they are more charitable or maternal or religious, or because they
  have less resistance to pestering than men.

These seem subtle distinctions, but making or not not making them can be
both revealing and have important practical consequences.

muffy> Now, you couldn't claim that you were robbed,

OK, it's agreed that there is no (big) crime.

muffy> but you could honestly say that if you had not felt any threat
					  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What I feel is a psychological problem (on the part of both the man that
does the pestering and of the woman that yields to it -- both probably
feel cheap), not a criminal one; or else insistent beggin would be
robbery and insistent salesmanship would be fraud.

muffy> (although they made no *direct* threat) you would not have given
muffy> them the money.

We agree. But the emphasis is on 'you'; some people would feel
threatened or annoyed and some others would not. While being held
prisoner or threatened with violence is something that is not as
subjective.

Unfortunately there are already precedents by way of which the intensity
of the *feelings* of the plaintiff, not the gravity of the *actions* of
the defendant, determine whether a crime has been committed or not
(surely for sexual harassment in the USA, and probably for incitement to
racial hatred in the UK).

Also it seems to be fairly common, and maybe this is a stereotype that
both women and men have about women, that women tend to regard feelings
more important than men do (if this were true, a lot of issues would
look clearer), and I tend to think that criminal policy should be more
driven by cold and rationalistic (more masculine, maybe) criteria than
emotion and feelings (more feminine, maybe) related criteria.

The reason is that emotion and feelings are by necessity a little bit
more subjective, and in our culture so far civil liberties have been
based largely on objective tests (except for aberrant cases like
pornography), and this seems to make them more solid.

  Also there are extremists that would argue that if women feel
  threatened by pestering they are entirely justified because all men
  are true and bred potential rapists, male culture condones and even
  encourages violence and rape as a mode of interacting with women, and
  rape is thus so common and is part of so many women's experience that
  any woman can have a reasonable fear that pestering (or for that
  matter, hugging) by a man can suddendly and almost casually turn into
  abuse. THUS, one could argue that by creating certain feelings
  pestering is tantamount to violence, as it preempts free choice.

This is why I am worried about any blurring of the boundaries between
problems with one's feelings (of pain, of threat, of outrage, whatever)
and criminal policy.


Naturally if what you want to say in the end is that pestering is rude
and makes women feel bad, because they feel threatened, whether this is
entirely reasonable or not, then we all simpathize (I hope).

We can also hope to find ways to make certain insecure men be less
obnoxious when they are insistent (I think that being insistent is
criticizable in itself, it's the manners really).

We also hope that women become a little bit more callous (if not already
- "treat them mean to keep them keen" is a woman's stereotype :->) when
it comes to obnoxiously insistent pressure, be it from men or anybody,
or anything else that makes them insecure and choose to behave in a self
demeaning way.
--
Piercarlo Grandi                   | JNET: pcg@uk.ac.aber
Dept of CS, University of Wales    | UUCP: ...!mcsun!ukc!aber-cs!pcg
Penglais, Aberystwyth SY23 3BZ, UK | INET: pcg@aber.ac.uk

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