From: cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 19 Nov 1992 09:52:26 -0800
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Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

9211.18 e.v.


Jeffrey Chance writes

..Sure, we should not
always have this sense of straining in our life. I agree fully.
But let's be realistic. What does one do when distractions pull a
man away from his usual regular spiritual practice (eg. one's
daily meditation)? Wait, I know your answer. Don't fight it,
just go with the flow, its something you need to let yourself do 
(the thing that is distracting you). Well, what if this leads  
to a gradual falling away from one's spiritual practice? What
if some charming, attractive and charismatic person draws you 
into a relationship and subsequent marriage and then the agitation
of keeping the marriage happy completely pulls away the attention
and energy you could have invested in practicing self-awareness?


Response:

Descriptive systems are not always prescriptive or proscriptive.

[Do we HAVE to be 'realistic'?  AGAIN?? :>]

What is 'spiritual practice' that one might be pulled from it?


I think the answer to YOUR question could be taken from Hindu Bhakti Yoga.
There the 'practice' becomes a focus upon an external person(a).  One
dedicates one's life to Vishnu or Krishna or Kali and then grows in and
through that relationship.  Or one gets a guru/rabbi/master/teacher and
deals with that complexity.  Or one enters into a Tantric relationship and
devotes oneself wholly to another in the pursuit of Truth.  There are really
no limits where practice is concerned.  Imagine it and you can find some
way of turning life into Heaven.  Enjoy.



Jeffrey:

I think things also very much depend on the speed with which
one is trying to approach enlightenment. Average, slow steady
speed, no problem, the hostile forces aren't going to bother
you. At faster speeds (ie. a greater conscious commitment to
one's spiritual life) the hosile forces start to notice you.
They say, "Hey, what are you doing, trying to leave me?! You
need me!" Then they will try and slow you down any way possible.
Some of their tricks: self-doubt, fear, temptation, enhancement 
of ego, entertainment/diversions, complacency, etc. 


Response:

Enlightenment is never approached.  It is either apprehended or lost.
No middle ground, no ifs, no ands, no buts.  Seize or forget it.
As such there is no 'slow' or 'fast' because there is no 'progress'.
One meditates or one does not.  One sits or one does not. One masturbates
or one does not.  With Yoda I say 'There is no try'.


Jeffrey:

Now I am sort of going to contradict myself. All I wanted to
point out here i that if one wants to be completely committed
to making substantial spiritual progress in one's incarnation,
effort is going to be required. Now the question arises, is it
desireable for every person to live their lives like this? My
own feeling is, no. I feel that God wants to experience Himself/
Itself in infinite ways, including experiences such as your life
where spiritual inclinations are present but the attitude is, 
not to exert, not to think of some far-off goal. I would say
each individual life is a unique and important experience of
the Supreme. Maybe in your case, you will progress further
in this incarnation simply because, even though you don't
have an attitude of spiritual effort like Roger and myself,
you may follow your soul's will more consciously and
unconditionly. Maybe not. Just a thought, but I don't
really know! Damn ignorance...


Response:

Do you want to be committed?  Think of all the implications of this term.

What is progress?  How can one assess accurately when such has been made?

When does incarnation begin and end?

Yes, I agree.  Your effort is more important than any argument that I
(or anyone else, perhaps) can offer which states that laziness is
perfection.  Left alone, you shall come to laziness on your own. ;>
Entropy brings these things, I'm told.

Does this sound familiar:  'Damned Satan!  I wish you'd leave us poor souls
in peace!'?. Ignorance is demonized and belittled by many in 
Eastern traditions.

What if it were met, befriended and loved like the perfection it is?  Perhaps
then Buddhism would fall into Taoism and the semi-conductor industry would
collapse.   Ok, so I'm stretching it a bit...


Thyagi