From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: TANGENT: Re: Prayer Request from SFC Latrobe Uni
Date: 15 Oct 92 21:04:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnews.1992Oct15.210403.3860
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Oct15.194636.25860@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Alan S. Mazer) writes:
>In article <1992Oct15.141354.19027@cbnews.cb.att.com> ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
>>But the Bible clearly portrays homosexual behavior as sin.  Now,
>>here's the tricky part.  It's not a sin to be a homosexual; it's
>>a sin to engage in homosexual intercourse.  People don't choose
>>to be homosexuals.  They're born that way.  _Christianity_Today_,
>>that noted bastion of liberal humanism and cultural hedonism, ran 
>>a series of articles several years ago quoting extensive research that, 
>>in fact, confirms that homosexuality is genetic trait, not a moral 
>>choice.
>
>I would _really_ be interested in _any_ research (references please) that
>addresses this issue.  I respect your belief that homosexuals are born that 
>way and maybe they are.  I don't know.  But all I see is people with a vested
>interest one way or the other making claims.  I personally find it _very_
>difficult to believe that the Lord would make someone homosexual and then
>tell them they couldn't fulfill physical desires that he gave them.  This
>seems wildly inconsistent to me.  (I just read something by an evangelical
>who claims exactly the opposite, that studies show no genetic link.  These
>waters are very muddied.)

Okay, I'll try to pull together the sources that I have and post
references.  I agree with you that most research in this area is
driven by vested interest.  That's why I was particularly intrigued
by the series of articles published by _Christianity_Today_ several
years ago.  Here was a well-respected, conservative Christian 
publication supporting a genetic view of homosexuality.  I'll try
to find dates and issue numbers.  Similarly, John Stott, another
well respected conservative theologian, argues for a *likely* genetic
connection.  I'm drawing a blank on the name of the book, but it's  
one of a two-volume series on ethical issues facing Christians in
contemporary society.  I'll post references on Stott's book too.

Why do you find it difficult to believe that God gives people desires
that are best left unfulfilled?  If, as has been increasingly shown,
there's also a genetic link to alcoholism or drug abuse, we have a 
similar type of situation.  That's not meant as a casual dismissal
of the very real desires that homosexuals have (or reformed alcoholics
or drug abusers).  It's tough.  But many people struggle with strong
desires that seem to be inherent to who they are, and yet it's clear
that giving in to those desires would be unhealthy from a spiritual
and physical perspective.  

By the way, there is a world-wide group called Homosexuals Anonymous
(HA), a twelve-step program modeled on Alcoholics Anonymous and
Narcotics Anonymous.  The same principles apply.  The desires are
real, and the people facing them need our support.  But no one
in those programs would argue that just because the desires are
natural they should be indulged.  Quite the opposite, in fact. 

>>And here's where it gets really tough.  Realize that when you ask
>>homosexuals to repent of their sin, you are really asking them to
>>be celibate.  Yes, there apparently *are* some instances where 
>>people have been changed from a homosexual to a heterosexual
>>orientation.  But those instances are few and far between, and 
>>there's increasing evidence from research to indicate that the 
>>"conversions" don't last.
>
>Again, I hear just the opposite from the evangelical community.

Again, I'll try to post references.  On a purely anecdotal level,
a number of people who head up ministries to the homosexual
community have told me that the homosexual --> heterosexual
conversions that are proclaimed in some Christian circles are
largely a myth.  And again, on a purely personal level, I know
a number of homosexual men who have tried to go "straight" and
have ended up in disastrous marriages.  

On the other hand . . . it seems to be true sometimes.  One of my
best friends is a former gay man who has been happily hetero for
over a decade, and has a fine, stable marriage.  He says that
he no longer has desires for men.  

Hey, the Lord sometimes works miracles, and I'm thankful for them.
But they wouldn't be miracles if they happened all the time.  I
really believe that most homosexuals are destined to remain
homosexuals.  

>>That's who they are.  That's
>>the way God made them, and they can't be unmade into someone
>>they're not.  The Bible says that who they are is sinners.
>>That's the harsh truth.  And God cared enough about them to 
>>send his only son to die for their sins.  Just like you and me.
>
>So God made them such that when they do what other people do (act out
>physical desires), God made them to sin while we don't?  Again, this sounds
>funny, and what's more, I don't see any Biblical basis for any of this.

Read Romans 1, or any of Paul's lists of "those who will not inherit
the kingdom of God."  I have to admit, I feel very uncomfortable with
this.  I don't like it.  I wish it wasn't so.  And in the past I've
tried to convince myself that it's all a big first-century 
misunderstanding and that it just doesn't apply any more.  But
if I want to take Scripture seriously (and I do), then I can't
take that approach.  

That doesn't give me an excuse to feel superior, or to harrangue the
dreaded sinners.  When I meet with my group of friends for Bible
study we meet as a bunch of selfish, pig-headed, rebellious jerks
who are sorely in need of forgiveness, and who have miraculously
been forgiven.  Some of the people also happen to be homosexuals.
They're striving to live a life of faith and obedience, and so am
I, but I'm under no delusions that my obedience is somehow easier
than theirs.  They have a *tough* way to go, and they've chosen 
to walk the narrow path.  They've chosen lives of celibacy as a
response to what they perceive as God's revelation in the Bible 
of how they should live.  Sometimes they disobey.  Sometimes I
disobey in other areas of the faith.  

But that's how it's perceived in the group I'm in - as disobedience.
No excuses.  Just an acknowledgement that it's difficult, and that
we still want to support one another in loving and obeying God. 
It's a great group of people, and I'm truly honored to be a part
of it.  

>>I know a lot of gays and lesbians.  I meet with them every week in 
>>a small group Bible Study, and I value their friendship.  The church 
>>I attend was the only evangelical church in my area to reach out to 
>>the gay community and say, "Come on in.  You're welcome here."  That 
>>really saddens me.  These folks know the Lord and want to follow the 
>>Lord.  And for them, that means that they strive to go through life 
>>without sexual intercourse.  I admire them because they've counted the 
>>cost and they understand that the cost is high.  I don't know that I 
>>could do it myself, and a lot of them struggle with the choice that 
>>they've made.  But I count it a privilege to be in there struggling
>>with them, fellow sinners seeking God's grace to overcome who we
>>are and to become who we are meant to be.  My friends are apparently
>>meant to be homosexuals.  But redeemed homosexuals. 
>
>This is incredibly intriguing.  I'm impressed!
>
>Andy, I would love to believe that what you say is true (I normally agree
>with your postings) but you would help all of us out if you could provide 
>some of the Biblical basis (and scholarly basis) you use as a foundation.
>I know this is a lot to ask, but I for one would be interested and I think
>others would be, too.

Okay, it'll probably take me a couple of days to collect references, 
but I'll try to back up what I'm saying.

>-- 
> 
>-- Alan                        # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
>   ..!ames!elroy!alan          # because breakfast is the most important meal
>   alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov     # of the day.

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian