From: hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: <None>
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:34:56 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Thanks for the repost...hope this is worth the wait!

In article <Bzz496.E9@spss.com>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
 
Re: accepting Jesus
  
>>>:-)  God gives grace to those who will accept it.  Basically, all you can
>>>do is stop saying 'No' to God and he does the rest.
>>
>>Wait, now. In my first remark on this subject I said that I had stopped saying
>>"no" and that nothing had happened, nevertheless I try to be a good boy
>>anyway.  You replied: sorry, you have to confess with your mind (which
>>I did), AND with your heart (which I didn't).  
> 
> Well, I am hardly an expert at explaning soteriology, but as I see it, God
> gives the grace to beleive to those who accept it.  In order to accept it,
> all you need to is stop saying 'no.'  Once you truly do that in your mind,
> your heart will confess Christ as Lord, if you truly accept that.  There's
> the issue with you.  While you 'accept' Christ, you continue to say 'no' in
> your comments about the existence/non-existence of God.

This is the doctrine, yes. I'm trying to point out that the doctrine is
wrong. You see, one _has no control_ over what one believes! Step into
my office here and I'll show you....

step 1. "I believe X" = "X appears true to me." Only a skilled practitioner
of doublethink can believe something that appears false to them. If you
deny this, consider: can you believe in Ahura Mazda? No? You can't make
yourself, can you?

step 2. One has no control over what appears true to one. A thing either
seems true or it doesn't. One can look for more info, but the new info will
either seem true or false and you can't do a thing about it. Sometimes
one might want very much to believe something, but it just seems false.

step 3. Therefore, belief is not an act of will! One cannot accept Jesus
in the way you mean as an act of will.  Your doctrine _precludes_ free will.

Therefore, the doctrine that we must freely choose to accept Jesus
is _false_ unless the kind of despairing acceptance I offered is good 
enough.   

Since that acceptance _wasn't_ good enough (I received no noticeable grace),
the only conclusions are:

1. God chooses whom to save and whom to damn and human actions are 
irrelevant. Predestination.

2. The Xian doctrine of salvation does not accurately reflect God's plan.
 
3. God does not exist. 


Pick one...or show me where I'm in error, if you would be so kind, effendi. 

>>
>>For starters, we agreed that free will was a myth back in September, so what
>>are we arguing about? :)  Second, your remark above is obviously false -
>>because I stopped saying "no" and didn't receive the grace, and I am certainly
>>not alone in this. 
>
> Explained above...you never really stopped saying "no." :-) 

Well, comrade, you either have to call me a liar, or revise your doctrine,
or show me where I'm mistaken.

Re: Bible stories fictional?

>>You think people aren't
>>credulous?  There are people who seriously believe the Holocaust never 
>>happened, despite films of the death camps ("faked"), survivors' testimony
>>("lies") etc. etc.
> Up to and including the testimony at Nurenburg by people who did it,
> admitting more or less what went on...disgusting.  But revisionism isn't
> really new, is it?  Look at what passes for 'biography' and 'history' from
> the Greeks and Romans...they purposefully made up episodes and included
> them as 'truth' in their histories.  It's only recently (in historical
> terms) that biographies and histories are (reasonably) accurate to events.

Hmm...so it seems reasonable to regard the OT as legend, then?


Re: The delusional nature of sincere belief

> This is an interesting mental state...how does one function when one truly
> believes that nothing is certain?  Everything becomes uncertain, every act
> has undefined results, every thought is uncertain...how do you make
> decisions?  (Don't give me that 'process' stuff....give me an answer on how
> you personally evaluate options and make decisions).

I operate "as if."  I live as if I knew what I were doing, mainly to
avoid getting tossed in a loony bin. At times I forget that I know nothing
and start thinking I _do_ know something. Bad move -- I start to take things
seriously and get worked up about this or that bit of craziness, as if
I really knew what was going on. But if you keep your mind on
what you're doing, and avoid the temptation to eat the fruit of the
tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, then you walk through a mysterious
world that you cannot comprehend. Life becomes a weird adventure,
a trip through a wonderland stranger than any fiction could ever be. 
You evaluate options and make decisions like anyone else, but your life has
a weird twist -- you are never _quite_ sure what will happen! 

Because your mind is now on your _life_ instead of your totally
unsupportable ideas about life, you notice a lot more, you live
in a world of surprises and adventure. This whole weird show is just for you!
And you are ignoring it in favour of a rather kooky set of ideas that
don't even make sense. 

Probably you will regard everything I'm saying as just another theory. 
It's hard to snap out of the hypnosis we're all subjected to as children.
You have to want to...you have to feel tied up, boxed in, by the ideology
you call "home."  If you don't, though, you _will_ eventually wake up, when
the Grim Reaper looks you in the eye. By then, it is usually to late --
the show is over, and you have slept through it. 

>>You'll know you're getting a feel for this when you start to get scared.
>>Belief is a pleasant blindfold that keeps us from coming face to face
>>with the Void, which is the world where we have been living 
>>all along, where you stare the unfathomable and indifferent
>>Mystery in the eye every minute. No wonder we want to be blindfolded!
>
> Staring into the abyss, as it were?  Most certainly I wouldn't feel
> comfortable with being face to face with such a void.
 
You're face to face with that void right now. At this moment you can
remove your blindfold and see, if you want to. 

>>We have already established there is ultimately no grounds at all for
>>any belief. Obviously, then, people do not believe for rational reasons.
>>We believe because we are scared little creatures who are afraid to
>>die. And why the hell shouldn't we be?  So, having a belief means: 
>>living in a dream-world (literally),  playing make-believe all life
>>long, in order to hide our eyes from the mystery that seems to threaten
>>our existences.  That's why people get rattled when their beliefs get
>>shaken -- they catch a glimpse of the Void beyond the
>>dream. They feel the "cold hand of Death." Quite naturally, this
>>scares the bejesus out of them. How much nicer it is inside where it's
>>warm...
>
> Again, I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with this.  While is accurately
> reflects some people's actions, does it accurately reflect everyones? 

I think so. Don't you find your beliefs reassuring when the universe seems 
indifferent to you and your life? Don't you find it scary when death or
random disaster touches your life, and everything suddenly doesn't look
so certain anymore?  Isn't it nice to be able to go to the Bible, to
one's projections of God (prayer), to church, and be reassured
that everything you value most will never disappear forever?

Look at your wife, or someone or something you love. If things go as they
have for the last 4.5 billion years, that person or thing will be destroyed
before very long. If you really love them, that should scare you. 
Isn't it nice to then think: Oh, but I'll meet her/him/it again in Heaven?

Whew...saved! Maybe.
  
>>Belief (of any kind) is a folding screen we set up to curtain off death. 
> Well, death doesn't scare me, particuarly...but then again, since I'm
> assured of eternal life, there is no threat!
 
Death _will_ scare you when you're looking at it face to face. No one is
scared of death when they aren't threatened. Everyone gets scared
when the wolf suddenly shows up at the door.

As I sit here, I can say, "I'm not scared of death."  But I remember
hanging on a cliff face with nothing between me and the grave but the
friction of my gloves against the bare rock...waiting for my hands to tire.
I assure you, one is less detached about the matter then. I was a Christian
at that time, BTW. 

Letting go of belief means looking at the situation -- I may be closer
to death now then I was then. I don't know if I'll see the people I love
again tomorrow. This may be my last night of existence. There is no
certainty. Only a person who sees that the darkness is waiting, and the days
thereof will be many, can appreciate the light. 

>>Which of course means that my current efforts to "wake you up" are a
>>rather cruel form of aggression. However, I don't
>>think you're buying any of this, so I don't feel too bad...:) if it looked
>>like you were starting to realize that I'm not joking around, I'd cool it
>>a little.
>
> But are you?  I don't think so.  I think you realized that I wouldn't jump
> off of a building if you challenged me, so you continue to do so.  In other
> words, you didn't see any permanant damage being done, so the discussion
> can continue.

Well, that's good. But we are talking about some pretty serious stuff.
Jesus said, "If you would be perfect, sell all you have and follow me."
Who is he? He is a person who recognizes his unity with God. Who is
God? "God" is the poetic way of referring to the creator of all things.
Who creates all things? That is unknown, but you are it, and "you" are also
its creation. What the hell is going on? 

 This slowly drifting cloud is pitiful.
 What dreamwalkers we all are!
 Awakened, one great truth:
 Dark rain on the temple roof.  (Dogen Kigen)


>  -Steve

Sean Hartigan
hartigan@ac.dal.ca

Eternity is in love with the productions of Time.  (Wm. Blake)