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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:52:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Partial answers to a couple of Kerry's questions.

Hello Kerry, it is good to hear you back, even if we still completely
disagree on the abortion issue.

About the Septuagent, it is a marvelous source and I encourage you to
continue reading and studying it.  There is a lot of debate whether the
Masoretic text is a "better" source than the Septuagent, there is good
evidence on both sides.  I think, though, that the best Old Testament
scholars would never fail to consider both texts.

About the Talmud:  There are some very interesting things there, but
remember it was written strictly from the Jewish perspective with no
thought to anything Christian.  So, it is only valuable in that context and
is not any source of further revelation nor truth, just an interesting
commentary.

About the modern state of Israel:  This is complex, but I firmly believe
that it has no place in any prophecy nor in God's plan.   The
Dispensationalists would teach that it is highly significant, even such
Fundamentalists like Falwel claim to be "zionists."  This is a complete
misunderstanding of everything Paul ever wrote.  Israel existed as a tool
through which the Messiah would be born.  Their probation closed at the end
of the 70 weeks as prophecied in Daniel nine.  As a nation, they ceased to
be of any import in the early decades of the first century.  The modern
state of Israel is a farce in spiritual terms.  God specifically told the
Israelites that they would never be numbered among the nations, yet the
state of Israel tries despairately to be so.

This is, admitedly, a point with which many will disagree.  That's okay,
I'm used to it, but I believe that an honest look at Romans will show that
the Jews have no relevance now, at least, not as a nation.

I hope this either heops, or stimulates thought at least.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:11:49 -0500
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request for our Family

Bill Jordan,

My heart goes out to you.  This happens alot to families.  The children are so
special and sweet and then they hit the teenage years and boom!  Somebody has
stolen their childrens minds and replaced them with aliens!  I hope it will
help you to know that many times the teenager is just as perplexed at the
change as you are.  These changes many times are a physical or chemical change
within the body and it takes a really strong Christian faith to help them
control it.  If you can try to understand that he is not only putting you
through hell but going through hell himself, then maybe it will be easier to
help him.  He might not know why he is flying off at the handle any more than
you do.

I had this similar problem with my son.  I tried to understand his changing by
thinking about our situation personally.  My son was a strong character and
brought up to be strong but I tried to instill in him a strong Christian
influence.  Therefore, he was at conflict all around.  They also have to deal
with peer pressure and the awful guilt feelings that sexual hormones can bring
about.  So they have the natural fighting against teaching fighting against the
outside forces.  It can be a real painful time for teenagers and I personally
feel that the dicipline rules should be changed from those of a child and even
an extra dose of lenience at chosen times can be helpful.  It helps to
identify sometimes. Sometimes, when one parent is at odds with the teenager, it
can be helpful for the other parent to be willing to share with the teenager a
time of quiet talking and reasoning.   You will be amazed at how they can open
up if you let them talk.  And talking to one's parents is not easy for a
teenager.  Fishing or some type of enjoyed hobby is a good release for tension
and bitter feelings.  It is easier to communicate when sharing some fun time.
Tension binds up the brain.

There should not only be a relationship built upon duty and responsibility and
dicipline and parenting but also there should be at least some time for liking
and respecting each other as fellow human beings.


It sounds like your son is in good hands.  Some teenagers refuse to participate
in church activities.  I will pray for him too.  God bless you.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:09:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      HOW LOW HAVE WE GONE.

I was repelled by Marty's report of the anti abortion march in Washington.
The very idea of a Christian carrying a sign with the picture of a part of
a fetus on it is disgusting.  The only blood a Christian should be involved
with is the blood of our Lord.

No, I do not advocate abortion as a birth control measure.  That being
said, I object much more strongly to Christians doing things that drag the
name of Jesus in the gutter and to me, this sort of action does just that.

Where is the Christian wittness in such an activity?  How does it bring
glory to God Almighty?  How does it make disciples for Christ?  I can only
believe that it does none of those things.  It only glorifies a movement
and attitude that should have no Christian attachment whatever.

Note:  I am not impuning the motives or Christianity of the participants, I
believe they have been misled by an organized attack on Christianity, not
something for it.

This is my opinion only, it is not meant to insult nor injure, just to
provoke thought.

Dan Graham
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 05:31:23 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      RE:PRAYER REQUEST-PRAYER GROUP

Dear Carol,

We will be in prayer for your group and also for wisdom, guidance, and
understanding from the Lord on how to proceed in this situation.  When
you need direction and assurance that you are doing the right thing, you
can always get this from God's Word the Bible.  Sometimes people are at
the mercy of others, whether it is the leadership or lay members, as to
what and how they should be pursuing their christian walk.  John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all
truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that
shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."  We have to make sure
that we are pleasing God.  We have to line up with the Bible because ulti-
mately God is the one You are going to face in the end and not man.  We
must not only know the will of God, but do the will of God as we come into
the knowledge.  We must walk in the light as we see the light.  We must be
doers of the Word and not just hearers only.

Dear Heavenly Father,
We ask that You take charge of this situation and that the eyes of their
understanding be enlightened, that they may know what is the hope of Your
calling, and what the riches of the glory of Your inheritance in the saints,
and what is the exceeding greatness of Your power to us-ward who believe
according to the working of Your mighty power.  Let them trust in You Lord
with all their hearts and lean not to their own understanding and in all their
ways acknowledge You and You will direct their paths.

Father these are Your promises and we believe and receive that You will give
them the desires of their hearts.  Grant them this Father in Jesus Mighty Name.
Precious Holy Spirit lead and guide them into all truth so they will not have
to depend on man's opinions but they can know God's perfect will and be able to
to walk therein.  In Jesus Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:28:21 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Last night's Rush Limbaugh Show

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
>Subject: Re: Last night's Rush Limbaugh Show
>Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:34:40 GMT

I seldom disagree with him either.  If there is anything that I do not
particularly like, it's the manner in which he does make his points.  It is
interesting that he does offend people?  Why?  Because he says things bad about
the people and activities that others are so fond of?  Are they so shocked that
there is an intellectual conservative with flair and exuberance, rather than,
forgive me George Will fans, a bow tied, horn rimmed diminutive speaker?  He
stands strongly behind America and personal initiative, and attacks things that
he thinks demean, degrade, and lessen society's value of humans.  Are
disagreements with what he says, or just how he says it?

MAC
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:30:36 -0600
Reply-To:     nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was NATCHAT@TAMVM1
From:         NativeNet@GNOSYS.SVLE.MA.US
Subject:      RE:UNBELIEVABLE!!

Original Sender: duneman7484@iscsvax.uni.edu
Mailing List:    NATCHAT (nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us)

[ This article is being relayed from the Usenet "alt.native" newsgroup. ]

Just happened to peek in on the net today and saw a couple of things that
my attention. Most important point made in the response to "UNBELIEVABLE" by,
ummm... sorry I forgot the name ... but, as was pointed out, conversations
about native "trials and tribulations" are most often PAST TENSE. Far too many
white folk today seem to think that this past is gone and forgiven. It is
neither, I think. I am in New Mexico (the "center" of Indian land ?? Santa Fe
and all;-)  ) and let me assure you it didn't "just end" in 1890. If any of
you know anything about strip mining, Churchrock, nuclear waste dumping,
boarding schools, Peltier and such it is fairly clear to us that there is the
SAME land theft, the SAME culture theft, the SAME lies and deceptions NOW.
I dunno, it seems to me this whole "in the past" thing has done more damage to
the current battles than perhaps anything else. As far as America is concerned
there is no "Indian problem" today. Just wanted to add a little umphhh to that
point and urge everyone (especially white folks who seem to enjoy discussing
Indians often) to make this abundantly clear in any conversation about "what
this country *DID* (past tense) to so many people. A start maybe.
Peace.
Jeff Duneman
Duneman@bootes.unm.edu
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:38:50 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Buddhism

Once a Buddhist told to a Christian Misioner:

WE ARE VERY MUCH ALIKE.

Oh, Yes ?

YES, WE PREACH THE MERCY OF BUDDHA AND YOU PREACH THE CHARITY OF CHRIST.

And ?

NONE OF US REALLY PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH, WE BOTH NEED TO BE FORGIVEN.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:58:50 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request

On Wed, 20 Jan 1993 07:07:22 -0500 Bernice Tennant said:
>Please pray for my mother.  She is in the hospital again. She is getting blood
>yet again.  Please pray for me and my family.  I am again questioning what the
>purpose of anything is?  I love the Lord, but I can't understand the existance
>of living to suffer continually.

Bernice, how's your mother...how are you doing?

Madge McBurney
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:08:31 -0600
From:         Theodore Penn <U59919@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mormon/LDS
              25 Jan 1993 16:49:00 +0000 from <ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU>

On Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:49:00 +0000 <ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU> said:
>Michelle:
>
>Here is a short rundown of the more serious heresies of LDS:
(Everything else deleted)

What is LDS?
--------------------------------+------------+---------------------------------
Theodore Penn                   |  <><   <>< | University of Illinois at
U59919@uicvm.uic.edu  Internet  |    ><>     | Chicago - Computer Science Dept.
U59919@uicvm          Bitnet    | <><  <><   | Go Against the Flow.
(312)237-0096         Phone     |  <><  <><  | I am a Stranger to this World.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:36:58 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Break off ties with the Vatican?

I read this in a UPI news release:

  "Former President Reagan established full diplomatic relations with
the Vatican in 1984. In recent weeks U.S. Evangelical Church leaders
have said they will try to persuade Clinton to break off these relations
on grounds that they violate the principle of church-state separation."

Comments?  Any idea which leaders they are referring to?

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:58:04 CST
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tithing

Jon states..                                  Moral of the story: Every
> believer should give *sacrificially*.

What if the believer spouse does not believe in giving and does not
want him/her to pay tithes? I surpose some would quote the one hand not se."
knowing what the other is doing, but this has not worked so well for me
in the past.

Yvette
"Do something good for someone today, even if it is leaving them alone."
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:18:35 -0500
From:         Braden Glen <d246@UNI05.LARC.NASA.GOV>
Subject:      Grandmother: prayer request update

  I talked to my grandmother for the first time since Christmas. She is doing
well, and was thankfull for your prayers. She is still in bed, but the pain
isn't as bad as it was and she seems to be healing faster than the last time
this happen.
  Also, she was happy to get the notes from the well-wishers on this list. They
really cheered her up. She wanted me to thank you for her.
Glen
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:45:35 -0500
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Movies & Ratings
              25 Jan 1993 16:53:00 +0000 from <ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU>

Greg:

When Al Gore's (as you say) Earth-worshipping book first came out,
Pat Robertson interviewed him on the 700 Club.  Pat questioned him
closely, but was generally respectful.  It was not until the Gores
started talking like the Clintons that religious conservatives
fully abandoned them.  (In fact, when Al was first announced, it
was thought by some observers that he would help shore up
Bill's attempt to appear "moderate.")

It is not impossible for a person to "fall from grace" in the popular
Christian world (see Little Richard, Bob Dylan, Stryper, etc.)

Also, holding advanced degrees (or degrees of any kind) in Biblical
whatnot has little to do with one's state of salvation or suitability
for high office.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:19:53 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Through the eyes of a child

>When God created children, he out-did every other
>part of his beautiful creation.
>
>Brenda
>

Amen!
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:22:48 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mormon/LDS Discussion

Excerpts from christia: 26-Jan-93 Mormon/LDS Discussion
SWILBURN@GONZAGA.EDU (939)

> Maybe I have started some very interesting and possibly disturbing
> discussion regarding the Mormon Church.  All I want to say is that I am
> a Roman Catholic and I do not believe in criticizing other religions.

Don't put those two phrases too close together . . .

> Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you", and so whether you
> are Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Islamic, or Protestant, I don't feel that
> you are more or less of a human being than I am.  I may or may not agree
> with some of the things that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
> Saints believes or practices.  I feel that anyone who is faithful to
> their own beliefs is worthy of respect.  I have friends that are Mormon,
> Hindu, and Agnostic, and they respect me for being a good Catholic. I,
> in turn, respect them for their beliefs even though I may not agree with
> them.  I am thankful to have friends like these.

While certainly all people are worthy of respect as human beings, all
religions are not.  The Catholic teaching is that it _does_ matter what
religion you are and what faith you profess; the idea that "all
religions are equal and all will get you to heaven" is formally
heretical according to Catholicism.

We must be careful to respect the human rights of individuals, but not
recognize all religions as equally valid and equally true.  We must also
realize that a person who ascribes to an erroneous religion is in grave
danger of damnation -- and it is our responsibility to bring those who
do not know the truth, to the truth, so that they may be saved.

Eric
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:40:03 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Geeling old (was Re: Segregated churches)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: cnews@umr.edu (UMR Usenet News Post)
>Subject: Re: Feeling old (was Re: Segregated churches)
>Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 03:55:18 GMT

"jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET> writes:
>I was feeling weird when I realized I was out of college and working
>when Challenger blew up, but my goodess, I was just a pup when JFK
>was shot.

I was in high school when the Challenger blew up.  We were watching the
lauch of a space shuttle as part of a class.  It happened to be
January 28, 1986.

Who's JFK?
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:27:22 -0500
From:         Marissa Ratcliff <MRATCLIF@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Countries Turning to God

Dear Mark and All,

   I know that it sounds incredible!  How do you perform an abortion on a woman
 that is not pregnant.  Well, Carol goes on to explain how they succeeded on du
ping 5% of their clients.

   You give the woman a pregnancy test.  You hold it out to her and let her wat
ch it turn positive or negative.  If it is positive, no problem.  However, if i
t turns negative, you tell the young woman that this test is not strong enough
to detect an early pregnancy.  You ask her if she's ever had a sonogram done.
No?  Great, we'll do a sonogram to determine if she's pregnant.  Go through a b
ig show of setting it up and proceed with the sonogram.  Then point to any shad
ow on the screen, whether it's a baby or not and say, "See, that's the fetus.
You are definitely pregnant.  Honey, do you have your money with you?  If you d
o, we can take care of this right now.  Noone ever needs to know."

   So you get her on the table and the technician scraps off some tissue.  Sinc
e he/she is also the one that checks for body parts and writes the final report
, who's going to challenge them?  The young woman who has just had the abortion
?  The technicians who are making money hand over fist?

    I know it sounds impossible and horrific, but the woman directed an abortio
n clinic for years.  She even had an abortion herself!  I didn't want to believ
e it either, but I believe Carol is telling the truth.

P.S.  I know it sounds rather informal to call her Carol, but I don't know her
      last name, either.  It begins with a "K."  Does that jog your memory, Mar
      k?


Marissa Ratcliff                Document Delivery
University of GA                Science Library
Athens, GA
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:56:56 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Don't mention the Lord

Was it mentioned anywhere how she was discussing religion to her
classmates?  How was it that the bus driver was able to hear what
she was discussing among all of the other conversations occuring
on the bus?  Why was the Vice Principle involved?  Did students
complain, because she was just talking about the Lord and sharing
her faith?  How was she discussing the Lord to her schoolmates?

Just wondering.

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:31:52 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Mormon/LDS

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante)
>Subject: Re: Mormon/LDS
>Organization: The Ohio State University
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:58:56 GMT

One other thing i've thought of in Mormon theology...
I think this is from the Book of Mormon, though it may be from
"The Pearl Of Great Price," which is another mormon book.

American Indians are descendents of the lost tribe of Israel.
That's what they say.
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Organization: Samford University
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:15:18 CST
From:         Renee Autry <JRAUTRY@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject: Re: SPEAKING OF BAPTIST
              27 Jan 1993 14:43:18 -0700 from <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Steve,

You request some information regarding Baptists and free will/predestination.
Baptists run the entire spectrum on this issue.  There are some "free will"
Baptists and they mean just that - they are very Arminian and believe very
strongly in free will as well as the ability to lose one's salvation.  On
the other side are the "primitive" Baptists who are very Calvinistic and thus,
are strong believers in predestination.  Southern Baptists are somewhere in
the middle usually.  There are several books on Baptist History which would
have more information on all of the "subgroups" of the Baptist tradition.
The textbook used in most Baptist History classes in Southern Baptist
universities is Leon McBeth's *History of the Baptists*.  If you are interested
and need more information (publisher, etc., although I am pretty sure the
publisher is Broadman) please contact me and I will be glad to look it up for
you.


Renee Autry
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