From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:11:15 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



(robertl)
/[re: the OCA]
/Now do you really think the fact that you can "pass" is going to cut
/any ice with them?

No.  Some assholes are simply too far gone; they have lost the ability
to see beyond their religion.  

Other people are still sort of rigid, but could probably be convinced if 
the right approach was taken.  


(me)
/   Being gay should be no more of an issue than being left-handed;
/   something that is definitely not average, but not a glaring
/   difference, either.  And a difference which should carry no weight
/   in employment, housing, etc.

/(robertl)
/It's easy to state the goal.  Now how to get there?

Do you think that I really believe what I just wrote, or do you think
I am "setting you up"?

Never mind; I believe it.  But your question remains: how to do it?

I don't believe that scaring people, or shocking them, or deliberately
acting out negative stereotypes wins the gay movement any converts.
That's a pretty good distillation of my belief.

Do you disagree with this idea in principle?


(robertl)
/It is abundantly clear that your strategy for gaining acceptance is to
/sacrifice anyone who might "offend" the straights in order to be
/accepted yourself.

I am not saying that at all.  Care to try again?


(robertl)
/After you have stood by idly while the straights eliminate drag
/queens, leatherfolk, nellies, bulldykes, people who engage in
/outrageous same-sax PDAs, radicals, etc. etc., leaving only yourself
/and others who don't want to "offend" the straights, how will you ever
/avoid being eliminated yourself?

I have had to step in and *prevent* some of these folks from being
gay bashed, asshole.  Three weeks ago, most recently; a couple of rednecks
were going to jump a total stranger outside of a gay bar I was at.
Was I scared?  You betcha.  Was it important to me to do step in?  Yep; 
there was a principle involved, and a feeling of kinship / group 
responsibility that I felt.
I do not believe that anyone has the right to"eliminate" someone else 
like that.  


(robertl)
/And you delude yourself if you think that question is rhetorical,
/since our enemies don't hate us for how we act.  They hate us for what
/we are, and they will never be satisfied until we are ALL gone.

Some people truly do hate gays, all gays, no matter what they look like
or how they act.  But the majority of people don't feel that strongly.
The religious right feels that way; but in my opinion, the religious
right is not a substantial number of people and do not represent
American public thought.
The 



(robertl)
/As for the ethics of your position, there are basically two
/possibilities.  Either you sincerely think the straight mainstream
/values are better, which makes you a homophobe, since straight society
/is homophobic to the core, or you realize that societal homophobia is
/wrong, but you are prepared to sacrifice others to it in order to be
/accepted youself, which makes you a traitor and a hypocrite.

Since every one of your premises are flawed, your conclusions are no
better.  Come back later when you've done a better job.



/(robertl)
/Is it groupthink to sneer at the "appease the straights" strategy?  

Dunno; since that's not my position, you'll have to ask someone who
actually believes that.




(me)
/   No.  And, as I have already said, I do not advocate denying anyone
/   rights because of how they act / dress / whatever.

/(robertl)
/Oh really?  But you'll let the straights do it for you.  Thanks ever
/so much.  Do remove your head from the sand, or your ass, or wherever
/you mislaid it.

You're pathetic, Robert.  If this is the best argument and defense
you can come up with, I have laundry to do . . .


/(robertl)
/Don't you see that we will never be accepted by general society
/without fundamentally changing that society?  You seem to think it's
/so easy --- simply stop the outrageous behavior and everything we want
/will be given to us on a silver platter.  You are wrong.

I never said it would be easy, or handed on a silver platter.  But
why make a hard job even more difficult?

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