From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: JuJitsu and Karate - Is there a link ?
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:26:50 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <3502@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> robh@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rob Hindman) writes:
>I have been trying to find proof that there is a link between
>Karate and JuJitsu.  At the very least, I want to validate the
>"JuJitsu interpretation" (throwing interpretation) of classical 
>Karate kata. 
>
I have a theory about this...

>I have been told that JuJitsu moves have been "embedded" in some
>of the Karate kata.  As I become a more experienced Karate-ka,
>I am begining to see this with my own eyes.  I am curious to find
>out how and where the throws in these katas came from.

It's probably more correct to say that there are 'ti' or 'tuite' moves 
embedded in the kata. This is more true of Okinawan kata than their heavily
modified Japanese counterparts.

>
>When reading the history of Karate, from various sources, including
>Funokoshi (from a Samurai class family), one gets the impression 
>that Karate was entirely an Ryu-island art form, and had nothing to 

Ryukyu.

>do with JuJitsu, but was really derived from chineese boxing, ch'an-fa, 
>tode, te, and ti.  Further, many schools of Karate teach Karate as 
>purely a sparring art form - kicking, punching, blocking.
>
>JuJitsu, as far as I can tell, included just about everything: kicking, 
>punching, blocking, grapling, pins, strangulation, pressure points, and  
>weapons such as the bo.
>
>(1) First question:   Are the "throws" in "standard" Karate kata
>                      (Pinan II, Pinan III, Pinan IV, Pinan V) of 
>                      Jujitsu origin ?  

See below.
>
>(2) Second question:  Funokoshi formulated the Taikyoko series of kata, 
>                      but who formulated the Pinan (Heidan) forms ??  
>                      Who formulated sanchin and bassai ??

The Pinan/Heian series was formulated by Anko Itosu, Funakoshi's teacher -
the techniques are mainly derived from the Matsumura Kusanku (as are the
various versions of Kanku performed by Japanese styles). Some of the
techniques are apparently derived from a kata known as Channan, which has
since been lost. The Pinan kata were developed early in this century to
provide simplified kata with which to introduce junior high school 
students to karate.

The Japanese Bassai kata are based on the Matsumura (Shuri) Passai, which 
was formalized by Sokon Matsumura in the early 19th Century, although it's
virtually certain he didn't develop it from scratch. Many Okinawan styles
do the Tomari Passai, which can be traced back as an independent kata
at least to Kosaku Matsumora (who was a contemporary of Matsumura's). Some
authors have stated that Passai was probably imported from China, perhaps
several times - with each importer putting a different 'spin' on the original
form. Passai is probably at least 200 years old.

Sanchin is of Chinese origin. There are two major versions of sanchin practiced
on Okinawa, the Goju-ryu version imported by Kanryo Higashionna in the late
19th century (and subsequently modified by Chojun Miyagi) and the Uechi-ryu
version imported by Kanbun Uechi in 1909.  Another version of this kata was
imported by Norisato Nakaima around 1880. Higashionna, Uechi, and Nakaima
all trained in various Chinese boxing systems in Fukien. Higashionna and
Nakaima are known to have studied Pakua in addition to Shaolin-derived
systems.


>
>(3) Third question:   Were any throwing art forms practiced on Okinawa ?
>                      I think there MUST have been.  The books don't 
>                      give a mention to it, however.

Yes. The ti/tuite demonstrations I have seen have consisted almost entirely
of throwing and locking techniques. Most of the striking/blocking techniques
in Karate kata also have throwing or locking applications. Probably the most
obvious of these is interpreting the classic karate lower block (gedan barai
or gedan uke) as a throw very similar to Judo's tai otoshi. Funakoshi
discusses a number of throwing techniques in Karate-Do Kyohan.

>(4) Fourth question:  Do you beleive it?  If someone told you that there
>                      was a link between Karate and JuJitsu, based on 
>                      what you have seen and experieced, would you beleive it ?

I'd believe there's parallel development. I'd also believe that, during the
centuries of occupation by the Satsuma forces, that Okinawans had the 
opportunity to observe the techniques used by their occupiers and incorporate
them into karate. There may, in fact, be a historical link. Many of the
Okinawan nobles are descended (supposedly) from refugees from the Minamoto-
Taira war (the Gempei War) in 12th Century Japan - as well as the minor 
conflicts between the two clans during the period before this war.
For example, the inhabitants of Yaeyama and Yonaguni claim descent from
Taira refugees.

The Okinawan royal (Sho) family is (supposedly) descended from Minamoto-no-
Tametomo, who is said to have landed in Okinawa in 1165 after fleeing
Taira persecution in the wake of an unsuccessful attack on Kyoto led by
Tametomo's father Minamoto-no-Tameyoshi in 1156. Tameyoshi was of course
related to Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu (1056-1127), the founder of what later
became Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, although I don't know how closely (anybody
know where I can find a 12th Century Minamoto genealogy?). One would
assume that Tametomo and his retainers had some familiarity with the
art. Ti/tuite is sometimes referred to as "palace hand" on Okinawa, and
most of the extant tuite systems can trace themselves back to the
Sho family (this is especially true of the Motobu family art). All guesswork,
based solely on circumstantial evidence, with no primary sources, of course.
There aren't any primary sources - they were all stored in the archives at
Shuri Castle, which was levelled by US artillery and then thoroughly
scoured with flamethrowers during the Battle of Okinawa (the Japanese had
barricaded themselves there and refused to surrender).

Steve