From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: Molesters vs Molestation (WAS Re: Against Our Will)
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:33:56 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <92240@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> In article <11443@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> >In article <92009@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> >> In article <11400@optilink.UUCP>
> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# 
# ###3. I have discovered, based on gay-positive textbooks and articles, 
# ###that homosexuals are disproportionately involved in child molestation.
# 
# ##What he found was that 80% of child molestation _incidents_ are men
# ##abusing girls.
# 
# #You need to work on your very limited reading skills.
# #Here's what I posted on that subject:
# #@ 1. Janet Shibley Hyde, _Understanding Human Sexuality_, (McGraw-Hill,
# #@ New York, 1990), 422.
# #@ 
# #@     Actually, most child molesting is done by heterosexual men to
# 	                    ^^^^^^^^^
# #@     little girls; 80 percent of child molesting is in that category,
# 	                                 ^^^^^^^^^
# #@     and only 20 percent is homosexual (McCaghy, 1971).  [Hyde, 422]
# #@ 
# #Read it.  Hyde admitted that 20% of child molestation is homosexual.
# #Not 20% of a subgroup.
# 
# So far so good.
# 
# She said 20% of the molestations (note: NOT molesters, but MOLESTATIONS)
# were committed by men on boys. She implied nothing about those men's 
# sexual orientation to adults.
# 
# Comprehend the difference?

Ah, yes, the tired old claim that a child molester, even one who
molests the same sex, isn't a homosexual.  What next?  Are you going
to claim that Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't a homosexual because he ate his
sexual partners after having sex with them?

# #@ Gene G. Abel, M.D., with Nora Harlow, "The Child Abuser: How can 
# #@ you spot him?", _Redbook_, August, 1987 [...] study of child molesters
# #@ for the Antisocial and Violent Behavior Branch of the National Institute
# #@ of Mental Health.  The study covered 403 molesters.  Those 403 molesters
# #@ had molested more than 67,000 children.  
# #@ 
# #@     And not only do molesters assault boys more often than they assault 
# #@     girls, but men who molest boys also have an astonishingly higher 
# #@     number of victims--an average of 282 victims compared to an average 
# #@     of 23 victims among men who assault girls.[Abel and Harlow]
# #@ 
# #@ According to Abel and Harlow, "Only 21 percent of the child molesters
# #@ we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual.
# #@ Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were
# #@ heterosexual or bisexual..."
# #
# #Read it.  The data presented is designed to put homosexuals and
# #bisexuals in the best possible light, and even this admits that
# #homosexuals are grossly overrepresented among the number of molesters,
# #and among the number of incidents.
# 
# You are persistently misunderstanding my point. If men who molest boys
# do so at a rate about ***12*** times that of men who molest girls (which
# by the way I believe), then those men make up a much smaller fraction of
# molesters than the girl-molesters, because they INDIVIDUALLY do a lot
# more damage. If we are to believe Hyde, 20% of the molestations involve boys.
# In the large sample of Abel and Harlow, 67000, this would mean about 13400
# incidents. Now, since boy-molesters apparently have a large average number
# of victims, 282, then the average number of boy-molesters in the sample would
# be 13400 divided by 282, which is 48.
# 
# When you divide comparable numbers by large and small numbers (282 and 23,
# to be precise) you shouldn't be surprised when division by a large number
# gives a small result. 48 is a rather small fraction of the total sample
# size, 403.
# 
# So there were most likely about 48 boy-molesters in this sample, who did
# a hell of a lot of psychological damage, at 282 victims a pop, on average,
# to account for the 13400, or 20% of the sample.
# 
# Think about it. 48 out of 403. This is about 12%. This number represents the
# fraction of MOLESTERS that molest boys exclusively.

That's still about 2x the number of homosexuals in the population -- and
considerably lower than the numbers given by Hyde.  Which do you accept?
If you accept Hyde's numbers, then 12% is quite a bit lower.  But if
you don't accept Hyde's 20% figure, then your computation above is
suspect.

# But then Abel and Harlow present another amazing statistic, that of these 48,
# the men who molested boys, "only 21% were exclusive homosexuals". In light of
# the fact that this subsample deals only with boys, their statement can't
# logically be made to say that men who molest boys are homosexual, since they
# themselves say that only 21% are homosexual.

Wrong.  "Exclusively" implies that they weren't bisexuals or heterosexuals.

# But making that assumption is EXACTLY what you did with Hyde's conclusion.
# You took her statement that 20% of the molestation incidents were homosexual,
# that is, involving men and boys, and then made the leap of faith that all
# of these molesters were homosexual themselves. But by golly, Abel and Harlow
# say you can't do that---only 21% of the guys who molest boys are actually
# homosexual!
# 
# Capiche?

EXCLUSIVELY homosexual.  Are you really this dense?  It means that a
lot of bisexuals and nominal heterosexuals are molesting boys.  Want
to guess why the bisexuals weren't broken out as a percentage?

# #homosexuals molest a lot of boys.
# 
# This is an unwarranted conclusion to make from the two studies you have
# quoted. The proper conclusion to make is that "men who molest boys,
# regardless of their sexual orientation with respect to adults, do so
# at a rate very much higher than their girl molesting counterparts.

I keep forgetting: men having sex with the same sex aren't homosexuals,
are they?

# #You are conveniently leaving out the bisexuals involved in homosexual
# #molestation.
# 
# Convenient isn't the word. Necessary is, since neither study you quoted
# gave statistics. But if you try to break down Abel and Harlow's sample

WHY?  They could have -- but didn't.  Both were gay positive articles.
What does this tell you?

# you come to the conclusion that most molesters must have molested children
# of both sexes. Do you then conclude that bisexuals are the most dangerous
# molesters? I think not.

I consider bisexuals and homosexuals indistinguishable.
 
# #The problem is that teenagers are terribly confused [...] about their
# #sexuality, what with hormones raging, the social skills not fully developed
# #with the opposite sex, and you want some adult to come in and teach them
# #that they can get instant sexual gratification by going into gay bars. Great.
# 
# Sure they're confused. Especially if they've felt homosexual impulses and
# they only have role models who say that they're sick if they feel that way.
# Their social skills with the SAME sex may be deficient for all you know.
# 
# And where in hell did you get the idea that teaching about homosexuality
# automatically involves sexual gratification? You're absolutely ridiculous,
# Cramer.

Reading soc.motss?  Talk about a group that lives for their sexual
organs.  Sex is wonderful, but it's the entire state of human existence.
(Should I post some of the crap that appears over there?)

# ## there is a one in five chance that your friend's nephew's molester was gay.
# 
# #The molester has been arrested.  He is a homosexual
# 
# So he is part of the 21% of boy molesters Abel and Harlow cited. But the
# other 79% of their boy-molester sample were likely married, with children
# of their own, and identify for the large part as heterosexuals.
# 
# kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,

As you get more and more desparate, you get more and more dishonest.
The other 79% were not exclusively homosexual.  What does this
tell you?  Some may be the sort of heterosexuals you describe -- 
except when molesting kids -- but some were obviously bisexuals,
and showing the actual number of biseuxals would doubtless have
made the GLB community look bad, so it was left out of the report.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:35984 ca.politics:6023 ba.politics:3767