From: drector@math.uci.edu (David Rector)
Subject: Re: Minimum standards for math "competency"
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.edu
Keywords: math competency education university college standards
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:43:18 GMT

jmount+@CS.CMU.EDU (John Mount) writes:


>In article <drector.722539017@math.uci.edu>, drector@math.uci.edu (David Rector) writes:
>|> jmount+@CS.CMU.EDU (John Mount) writes:
>|> 
>|> >In article <1992Nov23.140653.13522@scott.skidmore.edu>, pvonk@scott.skidmore.edu (Pierre VonKaenel) writes:
>|> >|> Perhaps you haven't visited a technical university lately.  I recall
>|> >|> professors complaining that most of their students are oriental, and
>|> >|> where are the American kids?  I'm not sure about the statement above,
>|> 
>|> >I trying to imply you said the above (I even left a bit of your "I'm not
>|> >sure about that").  But I think this kind of racist crud is intolerable- 
>|> >a good number of the Asian students ARE American kids.

>|> Your somewhat incoherent statement above makes even a staunch liberal
>|> bemoan political correctness.  Mr. VonKaenel's remarks imply no racist
>|> views; they may simply reflect a current defect in American English
>|> terminology: how to refer to the once dominant Euro-American cultural
>|> group.  You might try sticking to the subject.

>Just because you refuse to read carefully- doesn't mean what I said
>was inchorent.  Also, you are putting words in VonKaenel's mouth- he is
>only reporting what he heard.  Read the quote- do the professors seem
>at all pleased that their classes are full of Orientals?

Normally I would consign your posting to /device/null, but you have
read into my previous posting all sorts of racist garbage that I did
not intend and cannot leave unanswered.  Could you perhaps turn down
termperature of your postings and stop deliberately misunderstanding
people?  You have even, in your last line 

    >I have no desire to talk any further with you either...

stooped to being intentionally rude.

Perhaps there was a transmission error but you said:

    >I trying to imply you said the above 

which is incoherent.  Pierre VonKaenel has already denied the intent
you ascribe to him.  His language was perhaps ill chosen, but he
does not rate your worst case assumptions.  I appreciate your
desire--which I share--to combat racism, but you went too far.
(I regret to say I have done the same in other circumstances.)
It is impossible to function if one has to examine every casual
phrase for the worst case someone might read into it.

    "If you have to watch everything you say, you won't get much
     said."  --Lucy Van Pelt-- --(Charlie Schultz)--

>Real harm has been done by the "Asians are smart" myth.  An example:

>At UC Berkeley there are a two really good minority tutoring programs:
> ...

>Now here comes the funny (unless you think all people are individuals
>deserving a chance at success) part.  Around 1986 or 1987 Filipino
>Americans were dropped off some "minority list" by the university
>administration.  This meant they were no longer eligible for tutoring
>from PDP or MEP.  The nasty part is the Filipino Americans even though
>they look like all the other Asians have one of the worst retention
>rates at UCB- so they really needed the help.

You have an excellent point.  The essence of racism is to treat
individual cases according to membership in some group.  All Asians,
and all Asian nations are not alike.  Indeed, since Asia extends from
East Asia--the current common usage in California--to Istanbul, there
is at least as much difference between Asian groups as between those
groups and Europeans.  ALL words are subject to the same problem, and
we simply have to muddle through.  AVERAGES DO MATTER in some
contexts.  For example, in

>|> Here in California the problem of poor math education is particularly
>|> acute since California schools are a year or two behind the more
>|> competent school systems in the nation.  One characteristic of
>|> California's much esteemed Asian American subculture is high respect
>|> for education.  Many parents, therefore, devote great personal effort
>|> to overcoming the appalling defects in the educational system.  In my
>|> experience they succeed no better than the rest of the population in
>|> overcoming the deficiencies in content, and may even exacerbate the
>|> tendency of our schools to teach for the short answer test.

I implied and intended NO universality of behavior.  But enough
people behave as I stated to make a large difference in the
ethnic composition of California's Universities--as a number of
very vocal ethnic lobbying groups will point out.

Cultural differences are real and cannot be ignored, or we cannot
deal with a highly varied world.  Besides, cultural differences
are interesting and often enjoyable.  They add spice to human
interaction.  The cultural diversity of California is one of
its strong points.

>I am of European ancestry and I went to UC Berkeley undergrad, so you
>can consider my experiences as a data point- or you can ignore it so you
>can safely draw any conclusion you want.

One cannot draw general conclusions from individual cases or even
refute statements based on averages.  I used "all" nowhere in my
attempt to indicate current conditions in UC.

>|> Incoming students to the University of California--all cultural groups--
>|> share several characteristics:
>|> 
>|>     1.  They are bone ignorant.

>Not all- I took night classes in 2nd year college DiffEqs while in
> ...

Average conditions strongly influence a classroom.  A few years ago
I decided to stop lecturing to my lower division classes since lecturing
is a poor way to teach a routine course.  I had tried that a few years
before with great success.  To my surprise, the class would have none
of it.  They were not interested in working problems and asking questions
about those the did not understand.  There were several outstanding
students in the room, including an eleven year old boy, but their
presence was not enough to overcome the general tendency of the class
to be spectators.  This tendency has gotten worse since then.

--
David L. Rector				drector@math.uci.edu
Dept. of Math.				U. C. Irvine, Irvine CA 92717