From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: Sympathy For Evil (Re: Child Molestors - internationally organized?)
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:40:12 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <13270@optilink.COM> cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>From alt.folklore.urban, where a discussion of urban mythology leads
>STella to cry about how poorly our "sick society" treats child molesters:

Wait, now you're quoting from somewhere besides soc.motss.  I think this
proves how sick everyone in alt.folklore.urban is.  After all, I've only
seen a tiny handful of the posters on afu denouncing child molestation.
Most of them support it.

>In <1992Nov18.011441.13871@thelema.uucp>, STella@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>> In article <16NOV199217341298@csa3.lbl.gov> jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:

># ##The FBI, amoung other investigative bodies, has denied finding any evidence
># ##of any such groups [in the US] - Child molesters, pedophiles...

># Of all the sexual minorities I've encountered in a long and
># consensually-perverted life, the childlovers were the most isolated,
># marginalized, and desperate.  Face it, these people can't even go to a
># shrink to figure out how not to hurt kids, because the therapist can't
># promise confidentiality.
 
># Whether you think age-of-consent laws should be changed (I do, for I
># was much in love with an older person when it would have been a
># career-killer for hir had we expressed our love) or not, I hope you'd
># agree that folk whose chief emotional link is with those who cannot
># legally give consent do have a problem living in a culture where their
># psychiatrist must report them if they speak of the most problematic
># portion of their lives.

>You don't suppose protecting the kids from further predation might
>take a little higher precedence than making the child molesters
>feel a little better?

Further predation?

># #There are persistent reports in the popular media of a "North American
># #Man-Boy Love Association" (NAMBLA) whose materials, including some
># #kind of a newsletter, are sometimes found among pedophiles' effects.

># Persistent reports in the popular media?  SHEESH!  I've read some of
># their newsletters (try the most alternative bookstore in town), talked
># to members, and known folk who might have joined had they dared
># believe it wasn't a sting operation.  (I have no knowledge of whether
># or not it is a gummint sting.  But I am not on their list, though I
># too would like the age-of-consent laws to be loosened.)

># Now, your attitude toward child sexuality may influence whether you
># role-play with a friend while sie dreams of the girl next door (been
># there, done that, got off bigtime) or refuse to let hir take your kid
># camping, but these are people, breathing hurting people with just as
># much capacity as you or I for ethical choice.  I'm grateful that I do
># not carry their sexual imprint through life, because being a bisexual
># leatherwoman is plenty enough marginal for me, but the mere fact that
># someone's primary attraction is to children does not itself make a
># monster.  What sie does or does not do with that fact is still hir
># individual human choice.

>So it doesn't make them a monster to molest children?

As usual, Cramer, you give people no reason to take you seriously,
because you prove, time and time again, that you CAN'T READ.

The quote above is: "The mere fact that someone's primary attraction is
to children does not itself make a monster."

Nowhere does it say "Molesting children does not make someone a monster."

But, as usual, you prove that you cannot understand the simple
difference between an ACTION and an OPINION.

># #If I recall correctly, this came up a year or a year and a half ago
># #when a group of such people claimed their right as taxpayers to use 
># #some facility of the San Francisco Public Library to hold meetings. 
># #As they say in chess, "?!?"

># I am not close enough to the local chapter of NAMBLA to know if
># they've found a new meeting site.  I hope so, because it's easier to
># live up to one's ethical code with support from a community, and in
># our sick society, the emotional costs to a child found in love with an
># adult are only equalled by the cost to the adult.

>Ah, those poor child molesters, suffering because our "sick society"
>doesn't approve.

No child molesters.

># #Fact or folklore?  I don't know, and frankly I don't care to associate
># #with the kind of people who *would* know, with the guarded exception of
># #the enforcement officials who catch 'em and put 'em in the slammer.  
 
># I disagree.  I do not, to the best of my knowledge, know any current
># members of NAMBLA.  I am certain that some of their membership are
># scum for the same reason I am sure some lefthanded people are scum,
># and I am certain that some are ethical and loving people with a sexual
># imprint they're forced to carry as a guilty secret, unable even to
># talk to a counsellor without getting put on a watch-list.

>Those poor child molesters!  How unfair our society is!

No child molesters.

># #Sorry, folks.  Consenting adults can do what they please, but children
># #need protection.
 
># Then protect me from battering parents when I'm twelve, not a loving

>How does the failure of our society to stop all physical abuse in
>some cases, justify repealing laws against sexual abuse?  This is
>the excuse that a child molester would give.

># adult who could not even tell me that sie returned my feelings when I
># was fifteen!

>She can return all the feelings she wants; she can tell you all
>she wants; she just can't have sex with you.  Again: this is the
>excuse a child molester would give.

># Me neither, Joe.  I've known a boyfucker I'd kill myself (he didn't
># back off when the boy called safeword (I think he's still in jail, and
># that only hurts my heart once in a while), and I've known folk who
># could move their physical expression, if not their hearts, to adult
># partners, and I've known one celibate dear who would have collapsed in
># dismay if I'd hitched up my crinolines and showed him my frilly
># day-of-week panties, back when the world and I were young, and they're
># all people, and they're all seen as being the same.  And they're all
># as different as any other "group".

># Can we see each other as people, rather than stereotypes?

>Can we see child molesters as doing something evil, instead of as
>poor misunderstood dears?

Of course.  On the other hand, someone attracted to children is not a
child molester.  And if the person is old enough and mature enough to 
give informed consent, then the person isn't a child molester either.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Mike Mussina 1993 AL Cy Young Winner
niepornt@phoenix.    |------------------------------------ 
   princeton.edu     | "I still believe in a place called Hope."
Clinton/Gore '92.  Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
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