HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:34:18 -0600
From:         dene grigar <ACA102@UTDALLAS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dene's lurking

I do so lurk, way too much.  And I do get intimidated, way too much.  And
I have written on MBU, not enough.  I subscribe to MBU because I do want
to learn.  And I have learned a lot from all of you.
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:08:08 CST
From:         jsmckinn@IASTATE.EDU
Subject:      *lurking* here to stay

Rhoda's right about lurkers unlurking upon being labeled. Why?
Because it is something they/we DO feel confident about talking about
(expertise)? Interestingly enough, I can't recall which *lurkers* didn't
want to be so denominated.

I think *lurker* will abide, no matter what may be euphemistically contrived
to take its place. Nicknames anywhere are established by usage, common
mental assent (recognition!), and no amount of "fixing" is sufficient to
undo them. (Does any of this wash?)

Speaking of nicknames, BTW, why in the Net are we MegaBunnies?


(Wini, incidentally, I'm getting back to you <about SEP> after I get more
historical information. SM)

Smokey McKinney, Iowa State
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:00:54 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Images Redux (Quack! Quack!)

Raul -- I agree with everything you say, so much so that I'm not sure why
I ever disagreed. Thank you for the information on the nature of
Chinese writing, and for the additional references.  By the way, are
you familiar with the novels of Barry Hughart? He writes novels of
7th Century China that are (literally) fantastic. Ron Shook
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Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1992 13:27:08 EST
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Last (?) thoughts on lurking/Reason.Argggh!
              20 Nov 1992 15:51:58 +0000 from <rmcdonell%ucsd.edu@SDSC>

Robert:

                Welcome, dude!

                                   I like your style, not that style
                                   has ever been a prerequisite on
                                   exquisite mbu.


                                                            mer
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:59:48 CST
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Last (?) thoughts on lurking
              18 Nov 1992 09:20:58 -0500 from <WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1>

On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:20:58 -0500 Angela Murphy-Walters said:
>     Margaret referred to the literature in which "to have comments and
>especially questions met with silence is supposedly deadly."  Recently for the
>fourth (fifth?) time since I joined about 2 years ago I posted what I thought
>was a particularly useful message specifically because it came from an
>"outsider," only to have that message completely ignored.  I thought about

This hit home with me, as I felt this way too when I first joined MBU, far
more than on any other list (probably because MBU is just so busy; in the
rush of reading so many postings, we have to be choosy about what we reply to).
I feel much better now, as Sarah Connor says in T2.  But Angela's posting
raises an issue that I wondered about quite a bit back when I was posting
e-notes that no one seemed to be reading--the role of filtering programs
in the constitution  of electronic communities.  Some time ago Irv asked
how people keep up with the huge volume of mail on MBU; one way that people
do it is by using programs to screen which messages they will read. I don't
know exactly how these programs work, but I gather that people who use them
can search for particular keywords or particular writers, save those postings
and dump the rest.  My question is, what role do these programs play in the
dynamics of the electronic community?  Do certain issues and voices become
hegemonic because the least-known writers and the least discussed issues
are selected against?  And how many people actually use such programs
anyway--are there enough of them to have a significant effect on the discursive
practices of the list?  I would be particularly interested in hearing from
those who use such programs (or who routinely delete postings without
reading them).  What criteria do you use to select what to read?  Do you
feel that your selections contribute to the foundation of normative
discourse on the net?
     These are touchy issues, I realize; I wouldn't be asking such questions
if I hadn't long ago been convinced of the tremendous generosity and
friendliness of the MBU community.
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
weschap at uiucvmd
From: CROWLEY@NAUVAX.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: still taking offense
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:22:07 GMT
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Thanks, James Crosswhite for your careful response to my jeremiad about
reason.  I certainly meant no ad hominem attack;  someone else on the net
put my point better.  We are immersed in an ideology--call it liberalism,
modernism--that devalues what it defines as non-rational behavior.  I will
continue to insist that the rhetoric of liberalism, including its reliance on
terms like "justice" "equality" "fairness" and "consensus" is exclusionary.
Consensus often means "agreement worked out among those who were present and
who spoke up".  And to borrow or parody the title of a recent book by a liberal
philosopher, Whose justice?  whose rationality?  Whose equality?  (All men are
created equal, after all, and that meant white men until 1868 and even then
native american men were not included).  Important terms in discourses that
are as powerful as liberalism are deployed as if they applied in equal measure
to all persons;  but it is obvious to me that justice, for example, is not
the same for all persons in America (Anita Hill raised issues that our justic
system is simply not ready to handle--obviously the Senate committee did not
even understand that she viewed the events she testified to as transgressions).

Thanks, John B, for your clarification of the point about reason and violence.
I agree with you.  Discourse holds violence at bay, as KB points out--wars are
an agreement to disagree violently.

One more point for James Crosswhite:  I did your argument no disservice by
reducing reason to "mere" ideology.  Ideologies are anything but mere.
Sharon Crowley
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Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:10:33 -0600
From:         "(Joe Amato)" <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Alright, enough is enough.  You folks are right---lots of these messages
can be avoided with just a little common courtesy.  Subject line attention,
reply's from, lack of re-citation---makes perfect sense.  No need to take
up everybody's time with pointless posts.  No need to reiterate what others
have said.  No need to be vague or obtuse.  No need to go on and on.  Make
your points and make 'em stick.  Inject humor occasionally.  Free yourself
from the constraints of the age.  Let it go.  Hold onto your genitals and
wave goodbye.  The future is now.  I can't recall your name.  See ya
tomorrow.   She gave me a chocolate bar with almonds.  My figs are ready.
It wasn't my fault---they put me up to it.  Say ah, esp. you lurking
wallpapered flowerpowered silent immoral majority.  You.  Is us.  Hang it,
sort of.  Z?

Bye-bye and best regards,

your pal for life,

Joe
From: LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: bibliographic plea
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:16:43 GMT
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Michael Gos--If John Edlund is on-target wit his ref to the Kroll collection
you might look specifically at the work of John Swales and Ann Johns (separately
   , though it could (should?) be together).  He did Genre Analysis with CUO and
    she did a chpater in the Kroll book as well as other good stuff ( a chapter
   in my
collection, Assessing Second Language Writing in Academic Contexts, Ablex)
Liz
From: LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) ERIC (12)
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:24:51 GMT
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Bits of ERIC are here and there: ERIc Clearinghouse on Langauge, which contains
a lot of stuff of interest to us, esp. ESL writing stuff, is at CAL--Center for
   Applied Linguistics, in D.C.  e-mail cal@guvax.  I think the computer search
   is
a charge by time; many good libraries hold the ERIC database on fiche.
Liz H-L
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 11:34:38 -0800
From:         "(Tim McGee)" <tmcgee@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

I'd like to add my two cents worth to Gary Beason's "quibble"
about what text and visuals each allow.  Gary wrote:

text allows (as visuals do, but differently))
division of the whole 'picture' in ways that visuals can't.
Significance is not always easily communicated visually (and although
reading is visual, I'm referring to design, pictures, graphs, etc. as
visual).

	He went on to surmise:

I think this issue of focus may be what my students, at least,
distrust about visuals.  If the cliche is "a picture says a thousand
words" it may be 900 words too many.  The illustration or the graph
may have too much "noise."  But this same danger lies with text.

Clarifying and focusing visuals is a different set of strategies for
students long used to hearing about text.

	Having just helped my Rhetoric 1A students switch from
analyzing such non-fictional texts as MLK's "Letter from
Birmingham Jail" and Descartes'  _Discourse on Method_ to an
analysis of DeLillo's novel _White Noise_, I've heard of lot about
how much harder it is to ascertain the author's position in fictional
texts.
	If authors of nonfiction assert their arguments with fairly
straightforward propositions, authors of fiction paint worlds in which
issues arise and arguments take place, but determining where the
author stands on the issue at question is often a complex
interpretive task.  So, students distrust of visuals may be based
not so much upon the problem of focusing on a signal amidst
so much noise but the suspicion that in the absence of clearly
asserted propositional content, the visual allows the author too
much wiggle room while imposing too great an interpretive
burden upon the reader.

	So, trust of visuals may depend largely upon the proximity
of unambiguous propositional text.  Sinead O'Connor tearing to
pieces a picture of the Pope could have been open to a wider
range of interpretations had it not been preceded immediately by
the oral text, "Fight the real enemy."   Focus may be part of the
problem, but I believe authorial intent is another, and it's easier
for the audience to feel confident that proposition X  means X than
it is to be certain that picture Y means Y.


Tim McGee
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:59:38 CST
From:         Bob Whipple <whippl@PARROT.CREIGHTON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Getting a C

I'm glad to see Wing, who is identified as an undergraduate, on
MegaByte University--don't all universities, real or virtual, need
undergraduates?  Welcome, Wing.

bob whipple
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:05:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Toulmin not modernist

Sharon, while I agree with your feelings about modernism, I feel
that the "latest" Toulmin is not modernist.  I am no Toulmin
scholar, but in the last three or four things I read of his,
especially _Cosmopolis: The Hidden Agenda of Modernity_, he seems
most anti-modernist.  Maybe I'm missing something.  Fred Kemp,
TTU
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From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: getting a "C"
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:07:37 GMT

tim myers writes:
>
>I couldn't agree more.  Having graduated from a SLAC, I was amazed at times my
>peers haggled with professors over adding a "+" to a grade so as to "boost"
>the GPA.  Many of the people I knew used grades as the motivating force to
>study.
>A bit disheartening, but it is understandable.  Many of them, like me, were on
>scholarship and had to maintain that ever important 3.4 (or whatever) to be
>able to afford the priveledge of the credentialing the university had to offer.
	me guilty too, until a certain time when I got fed up of even whole
round grades and didn't even bothered much about A's, B's, or C's...until
something comes up that needs those grades, like grad school.
	The more I think about grades, the more I see grades a being a non-
determining factor in measuring how much I've learned.  I've gotten A's
in courses which I absolutely doo not care for and immediately forgot the
entire contents of what I had learned right at the end of the semester.  I've
also heard about A students who don't know anything and also know of other
A students who are incredibly profound.  I think it's more of an attitude
and learning disposition that any measurable knowledge.
	One prime example of the uselessness of measured ability is the
SAT and the GRE.  Despite reports of individuals who have incresed
by 500 pts their total scores, the testing center still denies that one
can learn for the tests.  I suspec that grading may actually reflect such
a trend of knowing at a particular moment.  How else can one explain an
engineering student with a weak just above 3.0 GPA but does a 3 part
senior thesis work in which one part was praised by a physics prof to
be at the Masters level?  And the prof graduated from Princeton, so 
he should know quality.
	Anybody has stories of undergrads with mediocre or not-so-good
grades but made it big in grad school or showed some kind of promise
that set him/her apart from even the bright?  I've read that quite some
gifed (in IQ range) show rather mediocre grades.  

	By the way, what the charter for mbu?  What's the group for, and
what's mbu?

Wing.
A lowly undegrad with a big mouth.


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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:20:58 -0500
From:         Angela Murphy-Walters <WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Last (?) thoughts on lurking

      Several good questions have been raised about lurkers of late and I would
like to try to briefly address a few.  In the shower this morning (where I
always do my best thinking) I realized a connection between various points I
want to make:  I benefit a great deal from this discussion; I don't feel
qualified to address the meaty issues, but when a topic arises in which I have
knowledge and/or pertinent background, I feel an _obligation_ to contribute as
a bit of a "payment" for your "services" to me on other topics.  That said,
here are my responses to various comments:
     Patty wondered why some of us "unlurked" because of the discussion of
what to call lurkers.  Among the many reasons for me is that you're paying
attention, albeit indirectly, to me and the other wallflowers when you wonder
what to call us.  You have invited us to dance, or at least noticed that we're
in the "room" watching you.
     Dene mentions intimidation.  Right on!  When I first joined I was amazed to
    see how often you cite eachother in your syllabi and responses to questions.
What am I doing even trying to contribute to this discussion?  Does this answer
Leland's question about why some of us always identify ourselves as lurkers
(it's only me; you may want to skip this...)?
     Margaret referred to the literature in which "to have comments and
especially questions met with silence is supposedly deadly."  Recently for the
fourth (fifth?) time since I joined about 2 years ago I posted what I thought
was a particularly useful message specifically because it came from an
"outsider," only to have that message completely ignored.  I thought about
leaving after it happened the second time, but decided to wait. (Regardless of
how hard the wallflower tries, s/he may never be noticed.  But s/he has to stay
until the end of the period or until his/her parents come.)
     Anxiously awaiting your responses,
                                                      Angela Murphy-Walters
                                                      WALTERSAM@WCUVAX1
P.S.1:  I'm not half as insecure, even in this forum, as I seem to be from
        my messages of late.  I am assuming a persona conducive to making
        certain points about lurking, a behavior pattern that conjures up
        images of the stereotypical librarian (!), an image I do  no fit
        and fight rigorously against!!
P.S.2:  Isn't Viditor a comic book villain???
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:37:53 -0600
From:         "(Gail E. Hawisher)" <hawisher@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: C & C Programs

Macey, Bob, and Rob--

Thanks very much for the great details on the Western Illinois, Miami, and
Louisville programs.  What a tremendous help you all are really!
Apparently we all have rich local histories that present a tremendous
challenge to us with this book.

I too was part of NYIT 5th C, Rob.  Sort of interesting that we really lost
some people, when Exxon money ran out, that we never won back on
Megabyte--I'm thinking of Diane Thompson, for example, and even Michael
Spitzer.  And I don't think it was so much the rigors of bitnet as just
being another community with different people having different discussions.
 In any case, we will, of course, remember Composition Digest, and I've
filed your message away to remind me, along with Macey's and Bob's.  Thanks
again!

Gail
________________
Gail E. Hawisher
Department of English
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
hawisher@uiuc.edu and 217-333-2989
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:26:02 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

jeff Galin -- Well said.  I wish I'd read your entry before I replied to Tim's r
   eply to my entry. (That got kind of complicated).  What led me to my
position was my friends in dance and art swearing up and down that
there is a 'language' in their art forms.  Maybe I need to do some heavy-
duty edfining



.  My current research interest is in visual presentation
of information for technical writers. What I'm hearing from y'all is
both an enticement and a caveat. Ron Shook
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Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 14:40:03 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: Limit your messages

Yes, yes, yes!!!  Let's all limit ourselves!!!  I want to add to Joel's urging
that we always may attention to the message header that woudl be used if we post
    a "Reply."
I habitually zap messages on certain threads without reading after I learn that
   the thread doesn't
interest me (enugh, given time constraints).  But often the topic has shifted ut
   terly
and I don't know it.  I could be missing stuff I really DO want to be part of.
I think wer all need a periodic reminder.  Cheese, Bill!! Did one person ree-lly
send 60 messages.  You gotta be kidding.
Liz
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Accrediting Writing Instruction
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:20:53 GMT
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I fully concur with your comments and look forward to the new devpts by the
CCCC exec in this regrard
Liz Hamp-Lyons
From: jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU ((Jim Porter))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Still defending reason
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:40:49 GMT
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              at Nov 18, 92 9:56 am

>(1) we disciple ourselves to the masters of suspicion and expose
>    the false consciousness in the idea of reason--a necessary task, but an
>approach that can also drift odff into enervating cynicism. (2) We try to
>renew some understanding of the affirmation which motivates critique itself,
>and the reasoning in it.

I very much share your aims--the "enervating cynicism" of much (I
would say, most) postmodern critique worries me, too. I'm off
looking for some sources (plural important here) for renewal & affirmation
as well, I'm just nervous, and more than a little suspicious of
reason as providing an answer. I guess it will depend on what
"different angles" you come up with. I'll be interested to see
(so please keep us posted!).

Jim Porter
From: feh@duke.edu (Frank Harrell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: "First draft" composition software
Keywords: software
Date: 21 Nov 92 22:56:53 GMT

I haven't seen a FAQ on MBU, so forgive me if this is too basic.
I'm looking for software, especially on UNIX, that assists in
writing that "first draft". My application is scientific papers.
I've read many accolades on MBU about hypertext and storyspace, and
I would like to know (1) if they are useful in first drafts of
technical papers, (2) what is if they aren't, and (3) what is
available on UNIX.

Thanks. Please reply to feh@biostat.mc.duke.edu

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank E Harrell Jr			feh@biostat.mc.duke.edu
Associate Professor of Biostatistics
Division of Biometry                    Duke University Medical Center
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:42:48 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

>Wing-Keong Loke the consummate chronic prevaricator
>writes:
>
>I make what I learn very important to me.  So what if I get a
>"C?"  What's important is I've got a start, and if I have interested
>myself enoguh, I'll continue to read up on the subject throughout my
>life.
>
What interests me here, Wing-Keong Loke, is your statement:
     "if I have interested myself enough...."

YOU are accepting some responsibility...
and you are also "shopping" --> sounds as if you are quite a motivated
student, one who has made some real choices and has some perspective
on education...

You are NOT the ordinary .


I've had classes I've "taken" a B in (by choice because I wanted to
spend my time on something else) .  And once I got a B in a course
because the professor believed that middle-aged, married women could
AFFORD Bs, whereas the young males had 'more at stake.'  I accepted
my B and didn't protest, because that professor didn't even offer
a Bs worth of information in his course.  At most the prof was
on the low end of mediocre!
>