HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Date: 23 Dec 1992 23:25 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec23.003925.22601@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes...
>lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>: In article <1992Dec22.211732.7987@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes...
>: >sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock) writes:
>: >: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>: >: > : The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
>: >: > : practices is "Warlock".  The more gender nuetral term would be
>: 
>: Actually this isn't true.  (I know, I know, .... flame away)
> 
>Hey, come on. At least post what I wrote - or leave my name out of
>the attribution.  I did not write any of the garbage written above.
> 
>Bill

Sorry Bill, I didn't even look at who was listed.  I have been off the group
recently and wasn't even following the thread.  It was just that one comment
that jumped out at me.  My apologies.

Tammy the truly sorry for her actions
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Quilts (was: Re: sowing bags)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:38:27 GMT

In article <lk3h76INNr32@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.183630.23309@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>> 
>> In article <lipuccINN9jd@news.bbn.com>, dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>> 
>> > (If someone thinks this doesn't belong in this newsgroup, I'm sure we could
>> > come up with some pagan themes for quilts.)
>> 
>> Who needs an excuse?  What ideas do you have for a quilt?
>
>I was thinking of the different star patterns that can be made with patchwork.
>Eight and six pointed stars are easy to do (well, you have to sew fairly 
>well to make an eight pointed star match up in the center, but the basic
>techniques are easy to do and the patterns are easy to find.)  I still
>haven't found a five pointed star pattern, and haven't figured out how to
>draft one.  I once saw something called a Moore-Penrose (?) tiling in a
>math journal that can make five pointed stars, but they didn't look like
>pentacles at all.

[a bunch of neat ideas deleted]

Before I ran out of money and had to put my quilting ambitions on hold,
I was looking for some thinner brown corduroy for the following: make a
nine panelled quilt with the four corner panels representing the four
seasons.  In each panel, make an applique of the same tree branch (this
is the corduroy), and change it to suit the seasons.  Make the Spring
one with some red buds of the branch, and grey skies.  The summer one
could have a light blue sky (the blue skies would be the background
panels) and some vivid green leaves in place of the buds.  The fall one
would have the same light sky with a few clouds, and red/orange/gold
leaves.  The winter one would have a very deep blue sky with patches of
snow hanging in the crevices of the branch, perhaps done with fake fur
applique, if that is possible.  (I love applique, more than patchwork,
since you can make nice curves and do it fairly quickly.  Patchwork is
constrained, and takes forever.)

Now for the other five panels.  The one in the middle would be an owl
with a full moon over it, similar to the bitmap I posted (I would do it
on this gorgeous blue crushed velvet I have, and make the owl white.)  
The remaining four panels would represent the elements, however you want
it.  You could do just a wans, a sword, a pentacle, and a cup, or if you
were more confident, you could do little scenes for each actual elements
-- air, earth, fire, and water.

I still ahve this quilt in my head, and it's the first thing I'm going
to work on when I'm able to get back into quilting.

Blessings,
Janis
From: lib1p@elroy.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:19:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Lauri:

>>> They are a part of my soul. Like my hazel eye
> 
>        What is this hazel eye?

Hazel eyes....its a type of eye color.  Hazel is actually a mixture of colors.
Most people have one color to their eyes.  People with hazel eyes have a 
mixture.  As a result their eyes often seem to change color depending on what
they are wearing.

> 
>> and burn crosses on our lawns
> 
>        Have they actually done that?

It is a typical tactic of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK).  The KKK is the American
version of the Nazi's born our of the debrise left behind from the War
between the States (Civil War to most).  The only real difference between
the KKK and Nazi's is that the KKK has never risen to political power like
the Nazi's did and the KKK often use religion as an excuse for their
existance and tactics.

Yes there are those who will disagree with some minute point of the above....

<waiting for flames>

....but I know someone who is in the KKK (unfortunate that he is in my
step-family, ugh).....

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:16:06 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <85679@ut-emx.uucp> martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok) writes:
>another view of the pentegram was that point-up, a human shape was easy to
>see, and point down, the star becomes the horned god (easily converted by 
>christians into satan, but..ohwell).. with side points for ears, top points
>for horns, and the bottom point for the chinney-chin-chin.

I confess to not being overly enamored of the pentegon, but that comes
from being a child of the sixties, and the Pentagon. Never did manage to
levitate it, though we tried....

	mark

Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: "Amy Young Leith" <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: (none)
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:43:21 -0500

In article <BzH1xL.GAv@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ivaliote@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Lotus ) writes:
>I'm sorry, but I feel that, just like Christians, you're making things hard on
>yourselves by refusing to identify that people 'out there' have a notion of
>what that word means.  I dunno, I think of pagan and picture hairy men breaking
>open bones and drinking the marrow.  I know that isn't the whole story (or 
>perhaps any of it), but come on...

Obviously you are 'out there' but in the numerous circles that I run,
the word Pagan clearly denotes a non-Christian, probably nature based
religion.  Even my parents, who are not very learned in religions,
even Christianity, had a general grasp of what I meant when I used
that term.  If it didn't work, I wouldn't use it.  But it does.  Until
it becomes a problem, I will continue to use it.  

>No.  But they invented a few.  A fe that sound silly and pompous when they use
>them.  Pagan is such a word.  Almost comical in connotation.  I don't mean to
>insult you....I don't know what I mean to do.  Yeargh.

It may sound that way to you but I'm afraid you aren't in the
majority. 

amy
-- 
alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu for personal mail
			    All business mail to alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Dislcaimer:I only speak for myself.  Anyone who thinks differently is a fool.
			(This means NOT my employer!!)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: SEX? Magic??
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 18:27:35 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-02-93 13:23
Someone suggested I crosspost here an earlier question I raised on Alt.Magick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <1993Jan01.223118.20106@rose.com> mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
writes:
>
>Date Entered: 01-01-93 17:26
> I recently finished reading Parts of Donald Michael Kraig's book
> "Modern Magic - Eleven Lessons in the High Magical Arts". A very
> good book for either novice or expert.
>
> Only one disturbing quote caught my eye, in the cahpter on Sex Magic.
> He spoke of a sect "one organization I am familiar with has the leader
> determine sexual partners. this includes having to be in an adjacent
> room while your mate has intercourse with another person. This allows
> you to hear every sound."
>
> This gentleman is a UCLA graduate with extensive expertise in such
> topics as the Kabalah, Tarot, Magic and Tantra and is the Editor of
> fate Magazine so I assume he knows what he is talking about. Thing
> is, has anyone else heard of a sect like this...doesn't sound like
> more mainstream  CM groups...

 Well, I consider Kraig a bit of an immature putz at times but I agree
that that book is good. The group he is refering to sounds like the
Frosts' School of Wicca (though Wiccans don't usually consider what the
Frosts do to be Wicca) which has included all sorts of things in the past.
ask over on alt.pagan about it.

Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson


... ----->|*  MARK!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
---
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@d0gslb.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: PAGAN & NOMENCLATURE
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:12:02 GMT
X-Posted-From: d0gslb.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <HALEY.92Dec20073448@husc11.harvard.edu>, haley@husc11.harvard.edu 
(Elizabeth Haley) writes:
> Remember, "Hi My name is Jack, and I'm a Witch" is just as bad as
> "Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian..."
> 
> How about "Hi, my name is David, and I'm still breathing..."

What's wrong with any of them, if Jack is a Witch, John is a Christian, and
David is still breathing?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Yule experience
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 18:12:35 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <1992Dec28.171851.1@gumby.mgi.com> lares@gumby.mgi.com writes:
>	I was wondering what kind of Yule experiences some other alt.pagan
>	people had? I would also like to share my experience it was very
>	cool.
>		The group I met with is not "my circle" as I am a 
>	        solitary practitioner. We started the evening very
>		informally talking,eating, drinking tea ect... before
>		we started a woman slipped out back and rattled around
>		the house ( a planned surprise for me) and came to the 
>		door dressed as the winter goddess or crane. She came in 
>		heavely burdened with child. ( the to be born god) We
>		welcomed her(winter) in. She told of the old traditions
>		of preparing for winter and of the new hope of life
>		spring would bring. Then she proceeded to have the 
>		new child (which were gifts we had all brought that
>		were supposed to be symbols of winter to each of us).
>
>		After enjoying this bit of acting and mood setting we
>		drew quarters. The quarters and words that represent 
>		alot of there meanings ie...south,fire....were spoken in 
>		gailec. I had no clue to the words were but somehow it fit.
>		
>
>		During the ritual another interesting twist was added.
>		each "regular" member of this circle brought a different
>		herb. Each spoke of the properties of the herb and why 
>		they had decieded to bring it. Then it was mixed into 
>		hot water which was on the alter to make a group tea.
>		It actually tasted pretty good considering the different
>		types of herbs that could have ended up in it.  
>
>		Upon closing the circle we all talked more and really 
>		felt close and tuned to each other. I was surprised 
>		at this because I do not belong to this circle. Although
>		the members are all friends. This is one the most 
>		casual yet bonding to god/goddess experiences I have 
>		had with a group.
>

This reminds me very much of the kind of open celebrations we used to have,
years ago, in the Pagan Way. The ceremonies were open, and inclusive. 
Everybody joined in, no obscure elements, and followed socializing, and
was followed with a pot-luck feast, and more socializing. I don't think I
ever took anyone to such an event that did not enjoy it, and remember it
with fondness, to say the least. Pity I don't know of any any more.

	mark

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mmelez@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Why the Cross?
Organization: Clark University
Date: 31 DEC 92 06:34:10 GMT

Date sent:  31-DEC-1992 01:28:47 

In a previous article, Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) wrote:
>In article <1992Dec31.015158.7606@serval.net.wsu.edu> 
> bill@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (William E. Johns;S23015) writes:
>>In article <29DEC199212214576@jane.uh.edu> 
>> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>>
>>>The early symbol of Xtianity was the fish, like is becomming popular 
>>>today.
>>
>>Why was the fish a symbol?  Anyone have a good idea?  Even a bad one might
>>be amusing.  :-)
> 
>It comes from a Greek acrostic phrase, which gives the word for "fish":
> 
> Iesous = Jesus
> Christos = Christ
> Theou = of God
> Huios = Son
> Soter = Savior
> 
> Ichthus = fish
> 
>It is one of the symbols found in the catacombs of Rome. It is
>thought to have been used as a covert recognition sign for early
>christians.

It was also under the impression it was connected to the original profession
(fishermen) of Jesus' apostles. This memory is faint in my mind.  Does anyone 
know if there is any validity to this?  Did I even get the apostle part right!?

> 
>-- 
> Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
>                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................


                                       - Myk.
mmelez@vax.clarku.edu
From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Faggots and witches (again)
Date: 24 Dec 92 09:20:57 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

>>... By calling _themselves_ "faggots," they affirm those homosexual
>>males persecuted in the Middle Ages: "When a woman was to be burned
>>as a witch, men accused of homosexuality were bound and mixed
>>with the bundles of kindling (faggots) at the feet of the witch,
>>and set of fire 'to kindle a flame foul enough for a witch to burn
>>in.' So the enemy has always seen that strong women and gentle men
>>are a real threat to masculine domination." This quote is from
>>Double-F, A Magazine of Effeminism...
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>
>>Can any of you confirm or deny this further?
> 
> 	Sure. It's complete and unadulterated bullshit. No surprise,
> coming from Morgan.

This interpretation of the word "faggot" is one I have been familiar
with for a long time.  I do think it predates Morgan, although I am
not sure how accurate it is.  It is true that gay men were often
bundled up and thrown onto the witches fire, if not burned as
witches themselves.  

There are several cases on record of men replying to accusations of
heresy by claiming they had wives they slept with, and children.
Heresy had at several points of the inquisition become synonymous with
homosexuality, and was a burning offense.

Judy Grahn in Another Mother Tongue takes a close look at the meaning
of faggot as a flaming stick, or more accurately a sacred flaming
stick or wand, like the flowering rod of the south.  One origin of the
word faggot is fagus, the latin word for a beech tree, a sacred tree
of the fairies, sorcerors and magical kings.  It was the beech tree
that Joan of Arc visited to hear her voice messages.  During her trial
she was accused of dancing around this tree with the fairy people.

The term faggot may have originated with the association of a sacred
and magical burning stick, or a wand, symbols of male sexual energy
and power.  This interpretation is more empowering than the
association made during the burning times.  But some of us remember
our fallen brothers, and how the boys burned too.  It is hard for me
to use the word faggot without remembering both. 

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  Some sing of their glory
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Few tell the true story
PO Box 1244                  |  Most men they don't need it
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  White man he kills for it.
___________________________________________________________________________
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Space, the final frontier
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:53:27 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1339@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM>, ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:

> 	Over the hollidays I had the oportunity to speak with a person who 
> is working on space station Freedom for LMSC, subcontracted to 
> McDonald-Douglas. I discussed all the various space tech plans here with him 
> (brought a lot of print-outs so I wouldn't mis-quote anyone) and then he 
> refered me to some folks at McDonal-Douglas. After talking with several 
> space engineers and physiscists there, I arranged one last interview with 
> someone at Rockwell International who specializes in railgun tech.
> 
> 	Needless to say, I learned a lot.

I'm jealous - sounds like a wild good time!

> 	The ideas of mining asteroids, industry in space and railguns 
> as a cheap way to get there nearly got me laughed out of every office I 
> visited. I'm not going to waste my time going into deatails here, but the 
> theories espoused here are full of holes and are basic flights of fancy. 

But what kinds of facts did they come up with?  Did they bring up any
cost issues?  Any engineering limitations?  Materials problems?  Why
was this all so funny for them?  What are the technical and practical
issues?

> The one of the engineers from  McD-D said "Tell those fools to go back to 
> reading analog". I don't know what this means but he assured me everyone 
> who espoused these ideas would.

"Analog" is a popular monthly magazine that publishes science fiction
stories and science articles.  They're well-known for being pretty
pro-space-exploration, but they usually back up the wilder ideas with
solid physics.  They DO like to extrapolate the latest scientific 
thought to extremes, though.  Part of providing good intellectual 
entertainment . . . like reading this thread!

I'm a mite disappointed that you didn't run into anyone who was willing
to play long-term visionary.

> 	The real education here is in human nature and who to believe 
> and not believe. I suspected. Now I know.

Don't be too disappointed when people don't live up to your hopes.
They're only human, after all!  :-)

Ashley, I'd like to see any hard facts that these folks might have
shared with you.  I'm really curious!

				- - Steve


--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Subject: Quilts (was: Re: sowing bags)
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 18:36:30 GMT


In article <lipuccINN9jd@news.bbn.com>, dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:

> (If someone thinks this doesn't belong in this newsgroup, I'm sure we could
> come up with some pagan themes for quilts.)

!!

Dawn,

Who needs an excuse?  What ideas do you have for a quilt?

				- - Steve

--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:05:33 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

Thanks, Amanda, for your insightful response; I quite agree with everything
you say in it.  Moreover, I think such families are not too uncommon, at
least in the United States.  My wife's family is another one, though here
on her father's side rather than her mother's.  They saved old papers even
more diligently than we did, so that her family documents begin in the very
early 1800's.  Moreover, they are much richer in esoteric religious elements
than are the ones from my family: there is an entire handwritten book of
some 150 pages, called "The Book of Benjamin," written in the 1840's by her
great great grandfather Benjamin, which begins with a chronicle of his life
(be was born in 1804) and then contains his home-spun essays on religious,
philosophic and scientific questions, all rather unorthodox.  The threads
that her family wove its banner from are different from those mine used:
more Freemasonry and Swedenborgianism, and less magic.  But both banners
are similar, and that may be one of the major common elements in our
lives.  In her case, her father's mother (who was half Irish) was the
one who expressly claimed occult or psychic powers, in particular, the
ability to make anyone come to where she was on demand, whether he
wanted to or not; and all of her three children (two of whom are still
alive) have seen her do it.  But this is another branch; the Book of
Benjamin and the related papers come through her husband (my wife's
father's father), not through her.

I quite agree, by the way, with your high assessment of Gardner and his
achievement.  Although I think I can prove that his Book of Shadows
began to be put together only after Margaret Murray's works appeared,
and thus is not ancient, this does not at all mean to me that his
religion should be scorned, any more than it does to you.  There is real
gold of the highest purity in Wicca; though it is not precisely my
religion, I value it very highly, and see my critical work on its
sources as a respectful outsider's contribution to its efforts to be
taken seriously and valued at its true worth.  (Since you can get
alt.pagan, you can probably get alt.magick; I have two or three long
postings on the sources of Gardner's Book of Shadows there in the last
few weeks, and there are also valuable contributions by others to the
same question.)  One of the challenges for the future will be to save
the power of the myth of the burning times without sacrificing
historical accuracy.  I think it is possible to do this, but it won't be
easy.  -- Robert

(Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM)