HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: th2_oate@csd.uwe-bristol.ac.uk (Tom Oates)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 LR can kill at 1 mile
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:16:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: csd.1992Nov10.160423.18773
Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol

I can't help you regarding the angle of fire. However, I can certify that
when a box of .22LR states that it can kill or injure someone at a range
of over a mile - it's not exaggerating. I have read several newspaper accounts
of people being killed or injured by stray .22LR bullets that were
fired by some yo-yo who thought they wouldn't have any 'whack' left in 
them after travelling so far. I recall one incident that occurred about
5 years ago in the UK: A farmer was out 'varminting' with his bolt-action 
in .22LR. He killed a few and went home. Later, the Police came round and 
questioned him about an incident that had happened earlier that afternoon: 
a little girl aged about 7 years old had been playing in her back garden 
(about a mile from the farm) when someone shot her in the side of the head 
with a .22. They took his rifle away to the forensic lab for testing. You 
can probably figure out the rest of this story for yourself. The Police 
were lenient with him because it was an accident and not intentional. 
However, afterwards that man had to live the painful knowledge that he had 
killed a child.

Admittably the chances of a stray hitting someone at that range and killing
them are very small, but Murphy's law dictates that accidents will happen.
In my experience, bullets can do very peculiar things, often the opposite of
what you expect. 

-- 
****************************************************************************** 
* Tom Oates (Univ. of West of England) * DISCLAIMER:I speak only for myself. * 
* Email to: th2_oate@uk.ac.uwe.csd     * PGP 2.0 Key available upon request. *
******************************************************************************
From: kuryakin@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LASERs - rangefinders?
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:18:03 GMT
Organization: Boeing


Speaking of LASER's, and laser sights for guns, does anyone know
if there is a laser rangefinder produced commercially?

How hard would it be to build one?

Could the laser speed detectors that police are beginning to use be
adapted?

Thanks, Rick
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Selling Home-loaded Ammo?
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:10:36 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


In article <11NOV199210553789@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#...
#Wouldn't the biggest headache be insurance?  What happens when one your reloads
#was a double charge and blew up your customer's gun and hand?  What happens
#when a bullets lodges in the barrel because there was no powder and the next
#round hits the obstruction?  etc.

Yep, but how is it going to be proven that it really was or wasn't your
ammo that caused the problem?
-- 



						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice

e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com
From: rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:16:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: spsgate.9211101836.AA06733

-> What about blocks of ice ? I would think a solid hit would blow it a part.
-> Fun, Safe and Clean what more could you want.

A good idea, but here in the deserts of Arizona, I'd be shooting at a
puddle of water in a VERY short period of time :-).

Dana Rigg
Chandler, AZ.
rig@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com
From: vvdag@alliant1.lerc.nasa.gov (Don Georgevich)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Fair price for a Browning 9mm.
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:47:45 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

Unfortunately, I am forced to part with my 1976 Browning HI-POWER
Belgium made 9mm semi-automatic handgun and was wondering if anyone
out there could recommend a fair asking price.  The gun is in  
excellent condition with adjustable sights, walnut grips and blue steel.

Thanks.

don
From: cs125c51@dcl-nxt31.cso.uiuc.edu (cs125 student)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: distance a .22 lr travels
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:44:05 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

I'm fairly new to shooting .22's, and I have a question about how far they  
really travel. I use CCI mini-mags, hv, and do all of my shooting in the  
country, although there are some houses about a mile or mile and a half in one  
direction, a direction I need to shoot in. Now, (that's my Ross Perot  
imitation), on the box it says, "Dangerous to 1 1/2 miles", and I believe that.  
I'm not totally stupid. 

My question: Is that at a shooting angle of 45 degrees? Most of my shooting  
will be at angles of about 30 degrees and lower. Now how far will the bullet  
travel? After traveling a mile, will the terminal velocity really be enough to  
do some damage to a body, both head and non-head areas?

Can I simply use 1.5 miles as maximum distance traveled at 45 degrees and use  
trig to figure out the rest? How much different is std velocity?

Mucho thanko!

Deer season in Illinois opens in 13 days!

Bryan
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: "do it yerself" blue finish on rusting Lee dies
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:52 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

I blued my dies because they were starting to rust a little.
They turned out mostly black, but got lighter from me touching
them.  I swabbed another coat (perma blue?) and I'll see tomorrow.

Some dies are shiny black now, some rainbow shiny.

The stuff is Cesium dioxide or something.

Is "do it yourself" blue any more resistant to rust than
plain old bare steel?   

How long does this stuff last?   Should it stay blue if I don't 
touch it overnight?   Can gun oil or WD40 applied after the
bluing app strip it?

If the solution is not pure, for example if I put a bit of dish-soap
on the metal surface to make application easier, will it
change anything?

	Lastly:

Is there some finish better than this that's cheap?

Jim Del Vecchio
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .44 Special Ball Ammo
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:52:49 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

I asked/posted this question last week and have seen no
response. Any one know how far down to seat the Round Ball
that can be used for light loads in the .44. The speer
book does not give any loading info other than the tables
for powder.primers.etc and no over all length. If some has
loaded and shot these what were the results like. I have
several hundred of these that I used in various black
powder guns which I no longer shoot and want to use them
as an alternative practice round vs 240gr lead swc. If I 
get no response I'll load a few and try them out myself
and see what happens in my bolt gun first.

-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.belcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Laser Sights - The State of the Art
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:17:17 GMT
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.

In article <1992Nov9.090105.18519@netcom.com> pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
#Actually, it would be nice if they could get the laser into a cylinder narrow
#enough to double as the recoil spring guide rod.

There was an advertisement in "Combat Handguns" for a laser for the Glock
handguns which replaced the recoil spring guide rod.  Unfortunately, it was
sold to law enforcement only ...

-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
From: dstine@cisco.com (David Stine)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: fun things to shoot at
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:56:41 GMT
Organization: Ain't got none o' that

In article <199211061657.AA12225@news.udel.edu> goguenm@bach.udel.edu (Matthew L Goguen) writes:
#In article <RTARAZ.92Nov5125515@bigwpi.WPI.EDU> rtaraz@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Ramin Taraz) writes:
##
##After going to an indoor range for many times, I would like to take my
##Taurus 92 out side for a while.  I like to know what are some fun
##things to shoot at. (i.e.  A television tube should be alot of fun)

#  Be very very careful if you shoot a TV tube.  The glass fragments
#from that could really mess up your day.  As for myself, I am planning
#to take my engineering textbooks to the range after finals and apply
#my remote hole punch to them. :)  You might want to take a dead atari,
#toaster, phone, or the best yet a dead computer.  Have fun, 
#I know I will.

Most modern CRT's have "implosion protection" to prevent the wild, wild
mishaps that used to happen when you set off a TV CRT. However, there are
still are some CRT's which you might commonly find that don't have implosion
protection; a good example of these might be the CRT's used in oscilloscopes
and other test gear.

My only experience with CRT's as targets was when I was 12. I used to roam the
neighborhood looking for old junk TV's for parts for my Other Hobby, ham
radio. Well, the best TV's for salvage were the old, old 50's TVs, because the
used real transformers and other good stuff. This was the era of the
unprotected CRT. 

Well, I had a really old Dumont set in pieces and had to get rid of the CRT.
The garbageman wouldn't take it with the vacuum still in it, and told be to
get rid of the vacuum or he wouldn't take it. "Simple enough", I thought. Take
the whole thing, in a metal 30-gallon garbage can down the road to the swamp,
stand back about 20 paces with my trusty .22LR, a pop a round off.

The resulting "boom" was about what you expect from a hand grenade. The metal
garbage can looked like a futuristic porcupine and was completely thrashed.
The glass, the can and the lid all went into the truck. I got whupped when mom
got home and had to pay for a new garbage can.

dsa
From: ssw@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (steven wallace)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Fix for heavy trigger on PPK/S
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:18:45 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

I just found a fix for my PPK/S's heavy double action trigger pull.
Elmore's Guns & Jewelry ((317) 882-8758 Greenwood IN) sells a "spring
kit" for the PPK/S that significantly improves the trigger.  The  kit is
around $12 and they had some in stock.


-- 
====================================================================
Steven Wallace, N9LKJ         |  wallaces@ucs.indiana.edu (internet)
Acting Associate Director     |  wallaces@iubacs          (bitnet)
Network Systems UCS           |  (812) 855 - 0960         (voice)
From: loia@leland.Stanford.EDU (David Loia)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: CZ-75/85 in 10mm
Date: 7 Nov 92 02:08:46 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <1992Nov6.154236.12541@unislc.uucp> unislc@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Ted Belliston) writes:
#In article <9211042010.AA21465@NMSU.Edu> loki@acca.nmsu.edu writes:
##
##I hear from an unreliable friend of mine (hi, chris) that someone (FIE?)
##has come out with or will be coming out with a CZ copy in 10mm.  Does anyone
##out there in television land know anything about it?
##
##--Dan
##
##"Master... Master...                       (To The Tune of Metallica's)
##	Master of Science is your degree.  ('Master of Puppets')
##	You're too dumb for a PhD.              loki@acca.nmsu.edu
##	Should have studied for the GRE!    taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
##
#
#I have heard rumor too.  I beleive the company is E.A.A. They should be out 
#somtime early next year.
#
#Ted B.

I know that there is a 10mm pistol called "Peregrine Falcon" which is an
improved "Bren Ten" which borrowed features of the TZ/CZ-75 pistols.

If E.A.A is deciding on a 10mm I hope they don't try the Colt Delta Elite
method (i.e. take a 45ACP frame throw in a 10mm barrel/slide and 25lb 
recoil spring).

BTW did the FBI abandon the S&W1076 in favor of Sig226 ?
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fletchette
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:51:55 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Nov10.073319.3735@pro-amber.cts.com>, by rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (Randolph Sopicki):
# I need some help settling a question we have.
# During Vietnam there was a fletchette type of weapon or round.
# I contend it was a paarticular round that was made for the M79 for the
# recoiless and other systems. My running mate says it there was a
# "fletchette weapon."
#

Well, there was the famous (or infamous, depends which side of
the cannon you're on) "beehive round" for the 105mm and I suppose
others as well.  I seem to recall a show & tell tape (Air Force)
that had a depleted uranium fletchette that was fired from a gun.
I'm not sure what they used in the M79 (grenade launcher?), but I
think it was the usual grenade configurations (scored wire
wrapped around explosive, concussion, smoke, etc.). 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: (null)
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:22:12 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

Thanks for the replys on my using .44 round balls in .44
special loads. I havent had time to play with any yet but
will try loading them a minimum of 4 differnt ways.
1. Full  resize, prime, charge, seat ball as close
to center as possible.
2. Full  resize, prime, charge, seat ball further
down
3. Full  resize. expander ball, prime charge, seat 
ball as close to center as possible
4. Full resize, expander ball, prime, charge, seat
ball further down.
I'll see what happens using light loads.
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: INFO WANTED: Automag III cal. 30M1
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:05:20 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <9211070204.AA17356@leland.Stanford.EDU> loia@leland.Stanford.EDU (David Loia) writes:
#I'm interested in buying an Automag III chambered for .30M1 carbine
#cartridge.
#
#I have questions regarding:
#
#3) power of .30M1 cartridge compared to .357mag

I think that .357 is more powerful.  In the latest issue of "Guns & Ammo",
there is a test of carbines versus pistols in several calibers.  .30M1 is
not among them but I know that .30M1 will put a 110 grain bullet out of a
18-20 inch barrel at just under 2000 feet per second (ie 1950-1975).  The
test in "G&A" shows that IMI 125-gr. JHP does 2031 fps out of a 16 inch
barrel, and Remington 140-gr. JHP does 1894 fps out of the same barrel.
While this is not a great deal more pwerful, it is more.  Also, you will
get a much better selection of ammo and bullet weights in .357, and the
.357 makes a larger hole, both in expanding and non-expanding bullets.
One other thing to keep in mind is that most of the .357 rounds were
created with a pistol in mind (ie short barrel) while the .30M1 is made
with a rifle in mind, meaning that you may get MUCH less out of a short
barrel, not to mention a severe muzzle flash.

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: syoung@pecanpi.UUCP (Stan Young)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Psychology in Defense
Date: 5 Nov 92 04:37:25 GMT
Organization: Pecan Pi, Doraville, Georgia


In article <73512@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin) writes:

(stuff deleted)

# I have set of many very loud noise-making devices, inside and out, occasionally
# without the use of hearing protection.  I still have hearing that is at least
# normal, as of the last time I had it tested.  I certainly advocate the use
# of hearing protection; I use 29 DB mickey mouse ears, sometimes with ear
# plugs too.  However, I believe that at least once a year or so you should
# practice one magazine or so without hearing protection.  Are you going to
# be wearing hearing protection if you get into that midnight inside the house
# gunfight that you worry about and hope never happens?  There may not be time
# to put it on, and besides, it will probably be dark and you may be relying
# on hearing more than sight to locate the intruder, so hearing protection may
# not be such a good idea.  Without hearing protection, you might be surprised
# at how loud your own gun is, and suffer a bit of a psychological effect
# yourself.

This came up in the group a year or so ago.  It is NOT a good idea.  Each shot
without ear protection has a cumulative effect.  And while you may not notice
it yet, you will.  (I use to have great hearing.  Now I've got a "notch" in
my audiograph - mostly caused from shooting .22's when I was a kid.)

Your premise is also faulty.  You don't need to practice to handle the noise.
If you are in a serious social situation, you won't really notice the sound
of the gun going off.  Talk to folks who've been in the situation.

# OCCASIONAL use of a firearm without hearing protection, especially a pistol,
# is probably not going to cause any permanent hearing loss.

(Stuff deleted)

# While I certainly suffered some temporary loss of hearing, for that night only,
# when we had a hearing test a couple of months later my hearing was rated as
# very good for a 26 year old.  I certainly have no trouble hearing now, and I
# do not use sign language.

John, when I was in my 20's, I thought my hearing was great - and it tested
out that way.  It wasn't until I was in my 30's that I had a hearing test that
charted the hearing acuity at various frequencies that they picked up the
problem.  And it only gets worse...

These days, I take ear plugs to rock concerts.  (Last time I forgot was a 
Springsteen concert; my ears rang for a week :-(



-- 
 Serendipity is looking in a haystack for a needle
 and discovering the farmer's daughter.                    -- Julias H. Comroe 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Young                                     {emory, slammer}!pecanpi!syoung
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Wanted: concealable self defense gun for men
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:26:22 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9211050812.AA04527@rutgers.edu> wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes:
#
#In addition, the type of gun you carry should dictate the choice
#of clothes not the choice of clothes dictating the type of gun you 
#carry. Carry what it will take to protect your life and design the
#wardrobe around it.

Indeed, a long, old fashioned western "duster" is the best wardrobe.
You can carry an AR or Streetsweeper under that with a suitable 
shoulder strap. :-)

Seriously, loud Hawaiian  shirts worn outside the pants offer the
best concealment option. The loud pattern helps breakup any outline
the weapon may "print" on the fabric. If you don't have the panache
to pull off such a fashion statement, conservative plaids work better
than monochromatic garments.

A final option is the fanny pack/belly pack that has gained acceptance
with men in the last few years. Frankly I can't bring myself to wear
one of these in public, so I opt for a light windbreaker and a shoulder
holster on summer evenings, and a heavy leather jacket in winter.

Gary
From: moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fletchette
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:25:11 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <1992Nov10.073319.3735@pro-amber.cts.com> rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (Randolph Sopicki) writes:
#I need some help settling a question we have.
#During Vietnam there was a fletchette type of weapon or round.
#I contend it was a paarticular round that was made for the M79 for the
#recoiless and other systems. My running mate says it there was a
#"fletchette weapon."

 He is talking about the US Army's "Beehive" program, which developed
flechette projectiles (described by one soldier as "like nails with fins")
that were loaded into ammunition for all sorts of weapons, from 12-ga
shotguns to 155mm howitzers. At short range the effect was said to be
devastating, much better than a buckshot or canister load from the same
weapon.

 Since then several armies have experimented with rifle-class weapons that
fired single flechettes. Some were standard infantry rifles that used a
sabot to make the flechette fit the bore, while others were purpose built
with bore diameters around 2mm. The advantage sought was greater long
range accuracy and energy retention because of an extremely low ballistic
coefficient. Some claimed < .5 MOA accuracy and 50% energy retention at
1000 yds. The general conservatism of military organizations, the almost
total de-emphasis of long-range marksmanship, and budget shrinkage at the
end of the cold war, have prevented any army from actually adopting such a
weapon, so far as I know.

 Any such ammunition would be illegal for American civilians because the
flechettes must be made of some hard material, such as steel or uranium,
which would fall under the materials-oriented definition of "armor
piercing ammunition".

						Matt Moore
						John Fluke Mfg. Co.
						standard disclaimers apply
From: btm@well.sf.ca.us (Brian Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Trajectory - Recoil - etc.
Date: 6 Nov 92 14:24:32 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


The thread about trajectory and the ensuing debate  recoil has been
very amusing. Lots of good info, and thanks from the physics-impaired
to those that did the figgerin' on mass ratios, etc..

Just thought I would point out that some ballistics programs have a
function to calculate recoil in velocity and ft/lb, and then can
split the figure to show the percentage of recoil from the bullet an~
and the percentage from the gas. So both contribute.

Who cares? Those that shoot compensated guns. You can't redirect recoil
from the bullet, but you can redirect the gas or get it to act on a
surface that will help counteract the recoil. AFTER THE BULLET LEAVES
THE GUN, of course.

So that is why light fast bullets are the choice for IPSC. 8 grains of
powder behind a 130 g. bullet in 9x21 gives the compensator more to
work with than a 147 grain bullet with 7 grains of powder.

So there. By the way, nobody mentioned blowback actions like the UZI,
camp carbine or a billion .22's. Good example of mass ratios controlling
the timing of the gun "unlocking", or at least opening.

My $.02

Brian Millin