HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Subject: Re: sleepless weeks
Organization: SCTC
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:36:46 GMT

>|> interests.  For the record, I am a candidate for the degrgee of Master of
>|> Architecture, MIT in the Spring of 1993.  

>Aha! There's your problem! You should be at *Harvard*  :-)

The campus of MIT is graced by a shallow, inverted bowl called the
Kresge Auditorium, which is supposed to be an object lesson in
architecural hubris. The heavy roof was designed to be supported at
exactly three points.  The architect said, "It'll stand." The
contractor said, "No way."

Last I saw, there were numerous internal pillars holding up the roof.

I spent part of my undergraduate career in architecture school (U.Va)
and at the time there weren't =any= classes that would have prepared
me to make decisions about such things. I remember lengthy sessions
where a design professor droned on about vague concepts, and I
remember staying up late, and I remember design critiques, but it was
more of a pompous approach to interior/exterior decoration than it was
about building things.

I've been dealing with architects occasionally in regard to a local
project restoring and rehabilitating an old court house to become a
city hall.  The consulting architects are actually construction
engineers with at best a patina of architectural training.

Questions to readers: does that Bauhaus teaching style still dominate
architectural education? Isn't it overdone? Wouldn't it help if
schools taught a bit more about how to build things, so graduates
would have some useful skill to offer employers?

For the record, I'm a computer scientist and we have similar problems
with college level curriculums, though not quite as extreme. Most
graduates at least know _some_ computer programming. Of course, it's
not the same as the "good old days" when the CS students and the
architecture students both kept campus buildings open all night.

Rick.
smith@sctc.com         arden hills, minnesota
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: jjgwynn@athena.mit.edu (Joel J Gwynn)
Subject: Re: First post!  First Post!
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:10:47 GMT


Gary Lawrence Murphy asks:


|> 
|> Voting for the former, anyone here familiar with the geodesic dome homes
|> by Natural Spaces?  Anyone know of any companies making pre-fab dome
|> home?
|> 
|> Especially in these days of hurricane devestations, I'm also wondering
|> if anyone knows of any dome-manufacturing bent on re-housing Florida
|> with more wind-resistant designs.


Int fact, I don't know much about who's doing domes today, but this kind of
intersects with my preliminary thesis research (what doesn't?).  I found a most
excellent book called Building for Tomorrow, by Martin Pawley (TD794.5.P385 in
your local library of Congress).  It's basically a book about building with waste
material (something they probably have a lot of in Florida), and there are a few
domes in there.  Also, there's a great book called Shelter (sorry, no call
number), which is a survey of self built shelters, with a lot of domes.

Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: jjgwynn@athena.mit.edu (Joel J Gwynn)
Subject: Re: Cognitive Dissonance (was Re: sleepless weeks)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:36:07 GMT

I apologize to Mr. Cohill, and to other users for publicly posting his e-mail.

I am too easily steamed, but I don't apologize for this.  At the risk of being
called cynical, I must say that I think the field is pretty screwed up right now,
and I think the fault lies mainly with the profession.  When I speak of the
"tyranny of taste", I don't mean that architects are imposing their will on a
helpless public.  I refer to their refusal to attempt to define a criteria for
practice.  This allows them to serve the interests of whomever has the
money/power to build a building.  The "anything goes" attitude excludes
discussion of the very real effects of built things on the environment.

The fact that my experience is mainly academic doesn't invalidate my arguments. 
In fact, my main gripes are with design education, and the lack of any signicant
structured body of knowledge.  As Mr. Smith observes:


"
 Wouldn't it help if
schools taught a bit more about how to build things, so graduates
would have some useful skill to offer employers?

For the record, I'm a computer scientist and we have similar problems
with college level curriculums, though not quite as extreme. Most
graduates at least know _some_ computer programming.
"

One may have problems with the specific implementation of the techonology, but
there is a curriculum.  We don't have that.



Joel Gwynn

jjgwynn@mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Subject: Re: Cognitive Dissonance (was Re: sleepless weeks)
Organization: SCTC
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:04:26 GMT

cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) writes:

>I'm in complete agreement with the sentiment, although you have to be
>careful what you wish for.  What employers want is not necessarily what
>you need, unless all you need is a job and don't care what it is.

>To provide a very common example:  most employers *want* AutoCad ...

This is becoming a common problem in many professions. In the 'good
old days' everyone used drafting tables and pens, even in school, so
once you arrived at your employer's doorstep you could go to work.
These days you have to understand how to learn a new tool, since your
employer probably uses a different package (or a completely different
version) than what you had at school. There are countless similar
analogies in the computer business.

>But I think the remark was really about building skills.  I'd like to
>see a more crafts-oriented curriculum, along the the lines of the
>Bauhaus, where students were expected to *master* a craft.  

I hadn't heard that the Bauhaus was actually able to arrange for its
students to *build*buildings* which is, of course, what all this is
about. I assumed that craft skills were seen more as a metaphor,
especially for architecture students. One could argue that the current
curriculum trains one to master the manipulation of cardboard and
paper, and of building scale models. There's an analogy in systems
design called "vugraph engineering."

Few civil engineers actually build bridges during their school education.
They might do some drafting on a new bridge as part of an internship, but
they don't get to build one from scratch. Instead, they study various
models and techniques for determining if a bridge design is practical.

Designing a building consists of two tasks:

1. Organizing, structuring the visual masses and spaces (got the
   jargon right?)
2. Making sure it doesn't fall down.

I guess I'm wondering what, if anything is done with Step 2. Isn't this
an oversight?

Rick.
smith@sctc.com       arden hills, minnesota
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: hnb5164@tamuts.tamu.edu (Heather Noel Bobbie)
Subject: sleepless weeks--why?
Organization: ~/lib/organization
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 02:30:14 GMT

i have a question--why is architecture (or "environmental design,"
as it's called here at a&m) a major in which students lose a lot of
sleep?  i mean, generally when i say that i am an e.d. major, people
say to me "oh, god, i bet you never sleep!"  and i don't,
generally.  (2 days, 3hrs sleep, at this point so excuse me if this
post is disjointed).
okay, what i'm saying is, why shouldn't we be allowed to sleep?:)
it's not as if i am not managing my time well, but i work hard and
am carrying 16 hrs of credit this term.  and i often, like most
arch students stay up very late.  why don't other majors do this as
much?  am i too conscientious about my work?

if this post has made any sense, let me know.:)

anyway, i'm happy this group was created--yay!!!

heather
_________________________________________     __________________________
\          "i need a new brain-         / -> / heathernoel             /
/           this one's shot..."         \ -> \ hnb5164@tamuts.tamu.edu \
\                                       /rip!/ architorture student--  /
/paraphernalia shouldn't intimidate you!\ -> \ kiss my apse!           \
-----------------------------------------     --------------------------    


Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: amunn@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Alan Munn)
Subject: Re: sleepless weeks--why?
Organization: University of North Carolina
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 04:00:53 GMT

If you're in a typical architecture programme you are one of a small
class who all know each other and compete against each other.  Each
incoming year seems to set its own standards and then you all compete
to keep up.  You're also doing all your work in your studio rather
than at home like other students, so you know if someone's working or
not. In most other departments people have much less contact
with each other and thus they aren't constantly pushing each other
like architecture students do.

Although the lack of sleep probably isn't very good for you, you may
be getting a lot more out of your education than others.  Besides, once
you get a job, it doesn't change...

Alan (not an architect, but lived with one through school and work)
-- 
Alan Munn                     <amunn@gibbs.oit.unc.edu>
Dept. of Linguistics, CB# 3155 UNC Chapel Hill NC 27599
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: jjgwynn@athena.mit.edu (Joel J Gwynn)
Subject: Re: sleepless nights.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:48:48 GMT





|> The point of this exercise, although it is rarely made explicitly clear,
|> is for you to develop your own sense of what is appropriate.  Note I did
|> not say "correct", because in design there simply is no correct answer.
|> What you are supposed to be learning are skills that enable you to
|> explore a set of needs, constraints, and connecting relationships that
|> comprise a design problem, and eventually resolve them to pattern that
|> represents a solution. 
|> 
|> A design curriculum is not about making things, it is about learning who
|> you are and how you work best. In every class there are always a few
|> students who avoid the sleeplessness of the group studio entirely,
|> simply because they are more aware of their bodies, their minds, their
|> limits, and under what conditions they work most productively.
|> 
|> Andrew Cohill


So, then, is Design Education a form of therapy?  Are we teaching future
professionals, who will be making decisions about the physical definitions that
the rest of us must inhabit, that the existing body of architecural knowledge
--history, social effects, structures, energy use, etc., is incidental to the
need to "develop your own sense of what is appropriate", and "learning who you 
are and how you work best."

This is a strange way to organize a field of practice.

It's a cop-out to say, "in design there simply is no correct answer."  Certainly
some answers are better than others.  The major failing of the Architectural
Profession has been the refusal to define criteria for evaluation.  Instead,
the design process and its effects are relegated to this mystical/artistic
world where anything goes, and good and bad, right and wrong are no longer things
we can assert, question, and argue.  Instead it is in bad taste to raise
concrete, "objective" questions about the real physical and social effects of
someone else's personal taste.

This would be merely pathetic if the effects weren't so obviously destructive. 
But in the modern US, where the developer, the client, the designer, the
builder, the owner, and the users are rarely the same people, this tyranny of 
taste and lack of accountability on all sides is a major reason that our cities 
are "concrete jungles", and our buildings range from the sterile and the stark 
to the sick and unhealthy.



In answer to why we stay up all night, it's because designing is hard.  It's even
harder when you have to make up your own rules.

By the by, let me say that I'm thrilled to find an architecture net, where I may
flame to my heart's content, and possibly get a response.


Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Subject: Wind resistance revisited
Originator: brad@buck
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 17:49:33 GMT


Someone told me by email that the group I called "Habitat" is actually 
"Habitat for Humanity", and, by saying "Jimmy Carter and his group", I 
implied he was the leader or founder, when he is just one of many 
volunteers.  

Just thought I should post this, lest I mislead anyone.

- BK
From: dbucher@ocf.berkeley.edu (Daniel Bucher)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: A Modest Proposal
Date: 30 Sep 1992 04:57:08 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.berkeley.edu

Hi, I'm not an architect, maybe a wanna-be architect, but I don't even play
one on TV, and I don't even know anyone in the Coll. of Env. Des. here,
so I'm really glad this newsgroup got started because I've been wanting to
turn some people on to this really cool book that only an architect would
truly understand.

It's called "The Return of Mr. X", and it's by Gilbert, Mario, and Jaime
Hernandez (Los Bros Hernandez, who bring you Love & Rockets) along with

Dean Motter. I won't tell you the plot (mainly because I have a midterm 
tomorrow) but if these quotes don't convince you to check it out then I 
don't know what will:

	"Santos is always talking about how it's up to him to repair 
the city--that only _he_ can do it....Then there's that crazy drug he's 
created to keep himself awake all the time. UGH! It's been _months_ since
he's last slept..."

	"...But...But how? It's all perfect. The design of the city should be 
preventing...I saw to it...How? How?    But I left. I left before it was
completed."

	"My God! To be _standing_ here.  I've seen this street a thousand 
times in my mind...but the image has been...warped.  So much was left out. The 
subtleties of my psychetecture...DESTROYED.  They've made my city harsh and
intimidating... Little wonder everyone's going crazy in a place like this.
The fools!  FOOLS!"

"So much to do...So little time."

Well, I hope this grabs your attention. If it does, here's the citation:

1. Hernandez, Gilbert.
     The Return of Mr X / story by Gilbert Hernandez, Mario Hernandez and Dean
Motter ; illustrated by Jaime Hernandez ; coloring by Paul Rivoche and Klaus
Schonefeld.  New York: Warner Books, c1987.
	Series title:  Graphic novel/Science fiction.
	Series title:  Motter, Dean Mister X.
    UCLA  Spec Coll PN 6728 R36 H46 1988
    UCR   Rivera    PN6728.M57 R48 1987 Spec Coll Eaton

(this is from MELVYL, the UC system-wide online catalog, so if you're reading
this from UCLA or UCR, you can go to your library and look at it, although
apparently they're both Special Collections so you probably can't check them
out)

ENJOY!
-Dan
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
s/ Daniel Bucher dbucher@ocf.berkeley.edu  Cognitive Science, Class of '94(ish)
			    G O   B E A R S
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 1 Oct 1992 11:58:22 CDT
From: <U52885@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: Re: Architectural aspirant

1:  Before i can tell you anything about the arch. grad. progams for non-
archs, i must preface with a caveat:  interrogate yourself extremely thor-
oughly about *why* you actually want to enter a feild which is frought with
hacks, difficult to make a living in, can never agree about the most fund-
amental tenants of itself as a discipline, and is impossible to get decent
funding in, as a graduate student.

2:  3-4 year Masters Programs in arch. are *typically* somewhat more theoretic-
ally-based than undergraduate programs, though there are certainly some of
each.  The theroy schools are steeped in an unscholastic, though certainly no
less dense, post-structuralist linguistics influenced approach to design.
It's hard to explain here and I suggest you visit those schools personally and
not in any casual manner.

3:  Since I am currently attending a theory school, that's about the best i
can list for you. There are several books in the reference section of your
library to which you can write for information;  many schools require a port-
folio of *any* work you've done, as long as it's primarily visual you're okay,
and some are even interested in reading stuff you've written.

4.  Architecture schools rise and fall will their directors;  if someone rec-
commends a school to you, find out under whose administration.  It makes a
difference.

5.  I recommend Columbia, Pratt, Sci-ARc, *Princeton*, Clemson, University of
Pennsylvania, all under their current administrations.  If you're interested
in getting another Bachelor's degree you should check out the Cooper-Union in
New York - it's free, if you get in, and John Hedjuk, the director, is a pretty
bad architect but a great teacher.

6.  I attend the Univ. of Illinois at Chicago which currently has an
interesting faculty but the cheesiness of the rest of the school is extremely
discouraging, especially when it comes to financial aid.

7.  I'm extremely curious what other people have to say about this.
From: jwd@sunol.ced.berkeley.edu (Jack Dahlgren )
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: Re: sleepless weeks--why?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 17:30:12 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunol.ced.berkeley.edu

Why not stay up late? It's  part of the culture. Start the project with a
few days left and spend all the rest of the time working on it. I think that
architects in general are "last-minute" types anyway. I think that most
projects have both a design and a production element. Usually the time 
spent on design stretches out and only the midnight hours are left to
draw and build models. I've never spent an all-nighter thinking up a design
concept, but I've spent many working on presentation drawings.

Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: Todd Sandrock <@bnr.ca>
Subject: Re: Why is green so popular?
X-Xxdate: Tue, 6 Oct 92 13:00:35 GMT
Organization: Northern Telecom
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d11
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1992 16:53:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.222423.15583@ccu.umanitoba.ca> Gordon McGonigal,
mcgonig@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca writes:
>So, for the last 10 years I`ve been wondering why many buildings have
>been built with green-tinted glass and faux-tarnished-copper siding?
>It seems shopping malls are particularly prone to this blight.   This
>at least is my observation in Canada.   Is this the same in other
>countries?
>
>Do architects really think this looks good?   Is it derived from
>pressures from developers that feel they want an "old time" theme to
>appeal to a perceived conservative, backward-looking mood in N.
>America?   Does this green glass provide any energy-saving advantage?


1) In Manitoba, one does not technically require an architect's stamp on
buildings, even non-Part-Nine buildings (like houses and commercial space
less than roughly 6500 square feet) as long as you have a structural
stamp. I suspect there are many examples of industrial and
strip-mall-commercial work (especially up and down Portage Avenue, and
Pembina Hwy, two commercial strips) which you can't blame on architects.

2) Portage Place (the mall that ate Winnipeg) and Polo Park were done by
RTKL Baltimore and Cadillac Fairview (I think...they all kind of blur
together) and are developer conceptualised and driven. Architects are
consulted when and where necessary for building and occupancy permits. I
think MMP of Winnipeg had some involvement, but you wanna bet they
weren't cut much freedom to do as they wished.

I know designing retail space is no rocket science but these two malls
could've been done in a manner which was not dated even before they
opened.

3) On the subject about pet peeves, how about those tacky signs with the
plastic lettering and flashy lights or neon arrows. You know, the ones
which have wheels so you can tow them from one strip mall parking lot to
the other. Just for a kick, try counting them on a bus trip from downtown
to the university, or any strip, anywhere suburban. I think I stopped at
80 on Pembina highway.

Todd Sandrock, M.Arch.
Northern Telecom Limited
Ottawa, Ontario
CANADA

The opinions expressed above were just a test. If they were real opinons,
you would have been instructed when and where to tune in you area for
further instructions.
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Subject: Re: job opportunites?
Originator: brad@buck
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:46:55 GMT


In article <90717@netnews.upenn.edu>, jiggles@heart.seas.upenn.edu (Linda J. Streicher) writes:
|> 
[stuff deleted]

|> How should I start my job search? What geographical areas of the
|> US are "booming" in architecture? (I would like to stay in the North East)
|> 

You want to stay in the Northeast? You might wish to reconsider, at least
for the present. My brother had his own design firm that was going great
in Portland, Maine for several years, but when the economy went into hiding,
the business pretty much dried up. Now he's in Austin, Texas, doing something 
with U. of Texas, and he got some sort of consulting job. 

You don't necessarily have to go to Texas, but right now the Northeast is
probably the worst area for architects. 
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
From: dtasman@NMSU.edu (Dan Tasman)
Subject: Re: First post!  First Post!
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:07:45 GMT

murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy) writes:

: Voting for the former, anyone here familiar with the geodesic dome homes
: by Natural Spaces?  Anyone know of any companies making pre-fab dome
: home?
: 
: Especially in these days of hurricane devestations, I'm also wondering
: if anyone knows of any dome-manufacturing bent on re-housing Florida
: with more wind-resistant designs.

There are quite a few alternative style somes in Las Alturas, a subdivision at  
the far south side of Las Cruces.  A few geodesic homes there (the only ones  
I've seen permanently occupied), a few adobe igloos, but the great majority of  
the homes are adobe, rammed earth and Pueblo style.  

If you're into landscape architecture, it's interesting to note that in many  
Las Cruces neighborhoods, yards are lept in their natural state, with no  
improvements ... just the native scrub, brush and cactus.  In the Northeast  
they call that a "nuisance code violation". :)

--
   Dan Tasman                                       dtasman@dante.nmsu.edu
                                                     molson@rever.nmsu.edu
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree
    Indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all."
                                                                Ogden Nash
From: zaidel@muzungu.cis.upenn.edu (Martin J. Zaidel)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture
Subject: Re: sleepless weeks
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:42:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.195132.28060@athena.mit.edu>, jjgwynn@athena.mit.edu (Joel J Gwynn) writes:
|> 
|> In reply to my post of Monday morning, September 28, 1992, Mr. Andrew Cohill, 
|> Architect, sent me this e-mail:

[private correspondence deleted].

|> This gets me steamed for the following reasons.

I get steamed for one reason only: people post private correspondence
on a public bulletin board.  The only other reason is when they then
attempt to defend themselves by saying, "It's now my personal possession:
I can do anything I want with it."

I feel so....so....cognitively dissonant....

P.S.  Too bad, it might have been a nice group.  Bye, y'all...

-- 
Martin J. Zaidel            | "We were once so close to Heaven
==> zaidel@cis.upenn.edu    |  Peter came out and gave us medals
			    |  Declaring us the nicest of the Damned."
Professional meaning junkie |                - They Might Be Giants
Newsgroups: alt.architecture