From: I3150101@DBSTU1.RZ.TU-BS.DE (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject:      God Is Unfair  ( was: MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:15:52 MEZ
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Brian Ceccarelli types:

(Deletions)
>It grieves me to hear this kind of discussion.  God gets accused of
>things that are really not his to begin with.  Both Christians and
>non-Christians alike attribute the pain and suffering in the world
>to God.   This is not true.

Assuming that the non-Christians you refer to believe in the same god.
I usually wonder if the Christians I know believe in the same god ...

The only way to establish a safe identity implies its existence and
falsifiable statements about it, and therefor I rather assign identity
by the attributes that are given to the various gods. In other words,
'Christians' believe in different gods. IMO.

>   I'll state my point first then back it up.  The point is this.
>Ultimately, we as humans have chosen death over life.  We had preferred
>cancer and old age a long time ago.   The four year old girl gets what
>she has inherited from the beginnings of humanity.  Death.  Suffering.
>It is sad.  Truly a pity.  But guess what?  God didn't create it that way.
>He originally created us to live forever.  God doesn't dole out cancer
>to 4-year olds.  Such is a sad and major consequence of what we as
>humans chose for ourselves a long long time ago.

Redefinition of words. Choosing implies that the people concerned have
the choice. According to your religion, a single couple had the choice.
These person have not got a mandate. So, why have we 'as humans chosen to
death over life'?
I have not made that choice, nor has anyone I know. In case you try
to communicate, rewrite the part above accordingly.


>   Do you remember that in the Bible, we humans chose to gain access
>to the knowledge of good and evil at the price of our lives.   Despite God's
>ample and clear warning. we chose to eat from that infamous fruit.  It
>reaped death for Adam and Eve then.  It reaps death for us now.  We,
>through some sort of spiritual genetics, inherited death from the
>originators.  Due to Adam and Eve, humanity had changed ever after.
>We now die.  80 year olds die. 4 year olds die.  There are old age, cancer,
>sickness, war, starvation.  All this stuff happens now.  But remember,
>this is not the way God created it to begin with.   God's will then is
>still his will now.  For all to come to Him and have everlasting life.

The knowledge of good and evil does not imply that humans have introduced
good and evil into the world. When it was evil to choose knowledge of
good and evil, it must have been evil created by your god. When not,
your god makes people suffer not even as reaction to an evil act.

It has been pointed out on this list, that Adam and Eve could not know by
definition that eating from the tree is an evil thing. Thus, they were
not responsible for the 'evil' in their deed.
And anyway, your god blames its own creation for being the way it is.
That is silly. Absolutely everything in the story is the work of your
god: the setting, the trap, the snake, the innocence, and the people.
There is nothing in it that is not the work of your god. So, evil is
the work of your god.


And when your god is so offended by the outcome of the Adam and Eve
experiment, why doesn't it quit, rebuilt everything but the tree, and all
live happily ever after?


>  Here are some details from the Bible.   They, I hope show that even
>though God can work good from evil, that God is not the culprit behind
>suffering and death.

>1.   Recall Genesis 1:16

>     And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from
>     any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree
>     of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it,
>     you will surely die."

Interestingly, they do not die instantly, they suffer a lot before. And
so does everybody after them, and that is not included in the warning.
Foul play.

(Deletions)

>     Who would you say caused all this?  God?  NOT!  God merely
>allowed Job to be given "into Satan's hands."  Being in Satan's
>hands is not a great place to be.  Job suffered in them.  Satan
>caused the deaths of the servants, the death of his family, and
>Job's sores.  These were the results of Satan's will, not
>God's will.

Ridiculous. God created Satan as well, and refuses to take responsibility
for its creations. There is no way for it to weasel out, because it
could have done better (being omnipotent) and knew what was going
to happen with its creations (being omniscient).
Anyway, I doubt your personal integrity as well. By your analogy, I can
give my child to Satan and not be blamed for doing it, for whatever happens
to the child is the will of Satan, and not mine. I understand that you
do not include allowing evil things to happen among evil deeds. I am glad
that most people have higher standards than you.

(Preaching deleted)

Anyway, the basic point is not only good and evil. According to your religion,
your god has created a world with the potential of great suffering. Not a sign
of responsibility, and together with its being omniscient it has suffering
take place knowingly.

Tells a lot about you that you believe in such a god lovingly.
   Benedikt