From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Basic Instinct Denied
Date: 31 Aug 1992 15:04:15 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

GF> [ Theory that homophobia and heterosexism derive from
GF> patriarchal values ]

goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves):
| [ doesn't think so....]
| This is one of the many reasons why I have many problems with "theories of
| patriarchy," and the fact that so many problems are being ascribed to it t
| And as to the comment that there is no implication that only men are capab
| of "holding patriarchal values," I think that it is *quite* apparent in th
| terminology that the views are considered to be *male-ORIGINATED*, which i
| why I feel that the very term "patriarchy," when used to ascribe negative
| characteristics to a belief system or to a system of actions, is nothing
| more than a vector for the morally bankrupt philosophy of female supremacy
| and female moral supremacy. ...

gf:
GF> Apparently, Will Steeves does not believe there are such
GF> things as patriarchy, patriarchalism, or patriarchal values,

ws:
| ...
| Also, you have quoted me out of context.  What I have a problem with, is *not*
| the concept that we have a large number of "white males" who rule, but that
| the notion of "patriarchal theory" is being used to explain away all the
| world's ills, as I have seen many a "feminist" do...  And your attribution of
| heterosexism as being a "patriarchal value," ie.,  "being heterosexist means
| that you think that men are better than women," goes *right* to the top of
| the list. ...

Let's see if I can sort this out.  I reported a feminist theory,
that homophobia derives from patriarchalism.  Will Steeves, who
seems to have constituted himself a kind of one-man anti-
defamation society for males, seems -- _seems_, to me, to 
regard any theory mentioning patriarchalism as a sort of rad-fem
version of the _Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion_.  That's how I 
interpret statements like

|                                  ...  What I have a problem with, is *not*
| the concept that we have a large number of "white males" who rule, but that
| the notion of "patriarchal theory" is being used to explain away all the
| world's ills, as I have seen many a "feminist" do...

So attribution of homophobia to patriarchalism is not just
attribution of homophobia to patriarchalism, but part of a
larger ideology whose overall program is so important we need
not consider the original proposition at all.

Now, I think we all agree that a great many bad effects have
been attributed to patriarchalism by feminists; according to
Will, this is illegitimate.  I can only assume that this 
means he thinks patriarchalism does not and did not exist as
a significant force in human affairs, for if it did -- if it
had been significant for, say, the last five thousand years or 
so -- one could hardly deny that it might be responsible for 
many present ills; one could hardly make it out to be merely
the figment of

GF>     ... [a] morally bankrupt philosophy of female supremacy and
GF> female moral supremacy....

because if it _does_ exist, or _did_ exist and has serious
effects in our own time, then we can't say it's inappropriate
for feminists (or anyone else) to attribute evils to it, can 
we?  Will says

|                              ... I think that it is *quite* apparent in th
| terminology that the views are considered to be *male-ORIGINATED*, which i
| why I feel that the very term "patriarchy," when used to ascribe negative
| characteristics to a belief system or to a system of actions, is nothing
| more than a vector for the morally bankrupt [ etc. etc. ]

which implies to me that he doesn't agree that patriarchalism
is important other than as a fiction.  It is "_nothing_more_than_
_a_vector_."

Basically, Will is questioning the legitimacy, rather than the
factuality or reasonability, of an assertion like "homophobia
comes from patriarchalism" because, he says, the second term has 
no real reference.  I think, before we continue to discuss 
homophobia, we ought settle the question of legitimacy.  So 
here's a question for Will or any other members of the Men's 
Anti-Defamation League that may be around: Is patriarchalism
just a fiction?
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )



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