From: rhb@world.std.com (Robert H Brueckner)
Subject: Re: Is this offensive?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
	<RHB.93Jan25110341@world.std.com>
	<1993Jan25.223616.23228@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:21:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.223616.23228@en.ecn.purdue.edu> oshiro@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Woodrow S Oshiro) writes:

   Geez.  You seem to believe that I have committed a mortal sin by not quoting the
   entire paragraph in which the sentences were located.  So, here's the entire
   paragraph.

	Well, you don't have to be Japanese-American to get thrown up against
	a locker in high school. Actually, all you have to be is smarter,
	shorter, weaker, or not a football player. So you're not being singled
	out, believe me, except that you are different. But let's compare
	treatment here, just for the hell of it, with that of anomalous people
	in Japan. Owada-san, the future empress, herself was victimized in
	this way, probably much more cruelly and relentlessly than any
	football player ever would have done it, merely because she had been
	abroad.

   You see, Robert, the first three sentences deal only with bullying in the 
   context of U.S. schools.  (That's a fair interpretation, isn't it?)

Yes, and one that is critical of US schools, if you can see it for what it is.

   But, THEN, you address the issue of bullying in Japanese schools, vis-a-vis
   bullying in U.S. schools.

True.

    You say that the Japanese bullying is "probably
    much more [cruel and relentless]."  Yet, in your first response to me you s   ay:

	If you examine my post
	which you excerpted you'll see that it's main flavor was that there
	*isn't* much difference, even if the portion you quoted may have
	seemed to be an apology for American dumbshit bellicose jocks who like
	to bully people (which was not the point I was trying to make).

   "*isn't* much difference" == "probably much more cruelly and
   relentlessly" ???
 
   Doesn't look like much of an equation to me.

Pardon me, I'm confused. I didn't realize we were supposed to be
checking our math here. But as long as you brought it up, "probably"
doesn't mean "equals" where I come from. Maybe you should do your math
again. Your metaphor is failing. What I said had a rough symmetry to
it, in giving a backhanded slap to American schools and another to
Japanese. If this wasn't equivalent to six decimal places, then please
excuse me.

   > The fact that you cite
   >my own admission in my article that "Neanderthals are Neanderthals,"
   >ought to have made you think that maybe I wasn't trying to defend the
   >jocks. A bit too subtle for you, perhaps? I'm not surprised. This
   >commonly happens when people react with their emotions and not their
   >brains. They lose all perspective and all appreciation of subtlety.

   Again, when did I ever accuse you of defending "Neanderthals"?  I am accusing
   you of contradicting yourself on this issue.

An accusation that has yet to be proven.

   >BTW, my point in the "ijime" article is not to say that America is
   >better than Japan. It is to show that, in spite of what apologists
   >like you spout, Japan does have a lot of serious problems. I went
   >through a phase where I thought Japan was a miracle country, and could
   >do no wrong, and defended it absolutely to anybody. Then I learned
   >more. I still don't think it's a bad country, and it's one I'm very
   >interested iI still enjoy and appreciate it for many, many different
   >things.. But it does have faults, and I think those should be as
   >legitimate a point of discussion in this newsgroup as sumo or Yaohan
   >or anything else.
   >
   >Some people, like you, Woody, seem to feel that any criticism of Nihon
   >constitutes Japan-bashing. Well, in that case, I'd advise you not to
   >read my posts. Because sometimes they do contain criticisms. And if
   >you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

   Talk about putting up a strawman!  
   Let's see, Robert.  You are accusing me of:
    1.  Being an apologist for the problems of Japan.
 
Yes. Else why make so much out of such a minor thing?

   2.  Believing that the problems of Japan should not be discussed in this forum.

Apparently. I hit some kind of a nerve here that has been worth
thousands of words so far (though this will cease).

    3.  Believing "that any criticism of Nihon constitutes Japan-bashing."

Possibly. If the shoe fits, wear it.

   Robert, I challenge you to find any evidence to back up your accusations. 
   If you are searching for someone who is reacting on his emotions and not his
   brains, I suggest you step into the washroom and take a look in the mirror.

Ah me. As you undoubtedly are aware, to do so I would have to go back
through all your posts, which I do not have. I would also have to get
the original article I responded to, which you also do not reference.
I also don't have any research assistants to help me. But enough of
this. I have already wasted far more time on this issue than I really
care to.  If your contention is that I contradicted myself in that one
paragraph, then suffice it to say I don't agree. English is not
mathematics. And if you want to get into a larger flame war about who
said what to whom and what the inferences are, I simply do not care.

But I do agree that I am reacting too emotionally to this. Maybe it
was your ad hominem attack on my position earlier which accused me of
trying to "slime" out of something. I try to be even-tempered, and not
to be the first to resort to insults. I'm sorry I was baited into
doing it this time. Note that I'm not apologizing to you, Wood, but to
anyone else who may read this. I think this whole argument has
generated more heat than light, and wasted a lot of bandwidth into the
bargain.

RB

-- 
|"The truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who  |
| have loved it." -- George Santayana  // Opinions expressed here, when |
| clear and persuasive, are my own. --Rob Brueckner (rhb@world.std.com) |

Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan