HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Atheism
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:34:25 GMT

Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

> I don't think that an antimagical skill should exist because magic
> isn't based on belief.  Religion is based on faith, but magic is
> based on knowledge (specifically the arcane knowledges).  In this
> way, magic is more like Science than Religion; it isn't the result
> of belief but observation.  It doesn't disrupt the natural law, it
> is the natural law.

How about the Occult?  That is based on no 'scientific' pronciples?
Or the Research Skill (Watson the Scientist:  "Oh, Bull Holmes.  You
can't possibly just jump to THAT conclusion!" <pause>  "Why, you're
right, Watson.  I can't, can I?")?  Nile Math and Engineering (you
believe in only tech, and yet I should expect you to accept
numerology and horoscopes [Horus-scopes? -- Is that a weird science
gunsight?])?

> I could imagine a religion that denies the reality of magic, or
> one that denies the reality of technology, or maybe even one that
> denies all social interactions.  The effects of this religion
> should be handled by miracles, which require the Focus skill.  This
> religion could only come into being in cosms with a moderately high
> Spiritual axiom and a low opposing axiom.

I believe Dave's system, as per his preview, was set up with miracles
-- but I believe he mentioned that Focus was not required (nor should
it be -- disbelieving supernatural effects may be handled in a matter
akin to miracles, but focusing spiritual energy to do so seems a
little hypocritical).  But, yes, 'miracles': disbelieve spell,
disbelieve miracle, Prove, Disprove, etc...

CJW

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>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
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From: aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew David Weiland)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Atheism
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:49:33 GMT
Organization: Junior, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Colin J. Wynne (WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU) writes:

>Andrew David Weiland <aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>> I don't think that an antimagical skill should exist because magic
>> isn't based on belief.  Religion is based on faith, but magic is
>> based on knowledge (specifically the arcane knowledges).  In this
>> way, magic is more like Science than Religion; it isn't the result
>> of belief but observation.  It doesn't disrupt the natural law, it
>> is the natural law.
>
>How about the Occult?  That is based on no 'scientific' pronciples?
>Or the Research Skill (Watson the Scientist:  "Oh, Bull Holmes.  You
>can't possibly just jump to THAT conclusion!" <pause>  "Why, you're
>right, Watson.  I can't, can I?")?  Nile Math and Engineering (you
>believe in only tech, and yet I should expect you to accept
>numerology and horoscopes [Horus-scopes? -- Is that a weird science
>gunsight?])?

I didn't say that magic was the same as science, just that magic worked
similar to science.  The laws of magic aren't the same as scientific
principles, but they're just as difficult to break.  Magic works
according to formulas that apply to every cosm, while there rules for
creating miracles vary from cosm to cosm and within the cosms by
different faith.  The formulas of magic are more flexible than science
in some areas, less so in others; but they're no more and no less
dependent upon belief.

The statement that "magic works because you believe it works" might
apply many other games.  But TORG makes a point of separating magical
and spiritual effects.
From: albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Listing of books
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:44:43 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b


	Ks Jim puts it in the FAQ, but here it is:

Torg boxed set ($25, I think.)
Infiniverse campaign newsletter (#2-24) ($3/a back issue, or 12 for 25 if
you subscribe)
Sourcebooks- (all $18 except Land Below which is $15)
        Living Land, Nile Empire, Aysle, Cyberpapacy, Nippon Tech,
        Orrorsh, Land Below, Space Gods, Tharkold
Adventures- (all $12)
        The Destiny Map (with GM screen), The Possibility Chalice, The
        Forever City, Cassandra Files, Queenswrath, Full Moon Draw,
        High Lord of Earth, Operation: Hard Sell, Crucible of Pain,
        Cylent Scream, The Temple of Rec Stalek, City of Demons, Central
        Valley Gate
Novels-(all around $4.95, I think)
        Storm Knights, The Dark Realm, The Nightmare Realm, Strange Tales
        From the Nile Empire, Dragons Over England, Mysterious Cairo
Supplements- (all between $13 and $15)
        The GodNet, Kanawa Personal Weapons Catalog, Pixaud's
        Practical Grimoire, Creatures of Aysle, Kanawa Heavy Weapons
        Catalog, The Storm Knights' Guide to the Possibility Wars,
        Infiniverse Update (Volume 1), Creatures of Orrorsh, Kanawa
        Land Vehicles, Los Angeles Citybook
Misc- ($2.50 an ish, I think)
        Torg comic book issue #1-4


-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
"Hmmmm, this sounds like *another* job for Stupendous Man!" - Calvin
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes)
Subject: TORG axiom level?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:28:12 GMT

[i know its a slow mail day - i am actually answering this]

Clint(wolf@cheshire.oxy.edu) asks:
 !      [WIERD AND INANE PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION ALERT!]
 ! 
 !      Torg came out in 1990, right?
 ! 
 !      Does this mean Torg can only be played without contradiction in a cosm
 !      of Tech 23 or higher? :)

well, the books only require printing (Tech 15? 13?),
but the weird die might be a problem (plastics - Tech 21?)
of course, you can always engrave bones or wood instead (Tech<7)

the major problem would be all the mathemataical modeling (Social>10),
and the higher order concepts of reality and such
(concievably post-heisenberg, possibly Social > 20!)

i hope this answers the (non) question
(and i hope no one else bothers to follow up)
(though i know they will...)

dave "what Social axiom is acting/role-playing?" oakes
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: wierd science
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:43:31 GMT

bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow) writes:

> And I want him to create a few weopons that just immobilize the
> target. say, aa bolo gun, a net gun and maybe some sort of stun
> whip. now what skills would be used to use these gadgets?
>
> It would probably be firearms and mellee weopons right? I wanted
> the character not to have anyviolent skills, but I guess I can't do
> that.. oh well...

Yep.  Weird Science is only to design and fix them.  You still need
the regular weapons skills to use them.  Of course, just because you
know how to use a Kyogo doesn't mean you will |-)

CJW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
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Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Atheism as a defense
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:37:05 GMT

rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:

> I like the idea.  Does the atheist have to make a belief check
> when confronted (for the first time, repeats don't count) with
> something of supernatural origin?
>
> The atheists only trouble will be in situations where the party is
> being aided by a friendly priest.  The atheist will have to do
> things the hard way.  I could see this occuring in LL or LB.
>
> (Joe Savage has to climb the gigantic tree while the rest of the
> party gets levitated by the power of the priests' miracle.  The
> priest protects the party from the mind-shattering effects of the
> evil spirits that they are fighting, while Joe Savage has to hack
> at them and block with his belief in Atheism.)

Not quite...  The atheist uses his adds to increase the DN of ALL
miracles he can witness in some way.  I hink the rulebook actually
allows for selective use of this ability, but that's ridiculous.
If he is going to snafu a miracle, he gets all of them.  The reason
I add the '[that] he can witness' part is simple: if he can't
observe it, he doesn't know that something miraculous is going on,
and he can't 'disbelieve' it.  However, beneficial miracles can
still be used on him (the atheist), like it or not, by applying the
normal rules for a contest of faiths.

CJW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
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Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: FJELDLI@oral.unit.no
Subject:  Re: Mission in the Nile Empire
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:36:29 GMT


    Way to go, Colin !

    I've been following this mailing list for some weeks now, and I
have long awaited the coming of some stories. Most of the rule
questions bore me, but if we can get some more stories into this
list, I'll sure be a more eager reader.

    And now you start with an action-packed story that sounds all-
right. Quite a good feel for the action-sequences, although I might
prefer some more character sketching (I'm already fond of your were-
tiger !).

    One goof though, the Italian flag is green, white and RED. (You
have described the Irish flag, not the Italian one). Besides,
Littorio is the name of an Italian destroyer. The name comes from the
battle of Littorio, and has been the exclusive property of the
Italian Navy for at least 70 years. It is unlikely that a cargo ship
would have been given such a name. (Any Italians on this list that
could comment on that ?).

    Go ahead though. And to everybody else, contribute some more
stories !!

    Tim
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Receipt confirmation
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:14:43 GMT

Confirmation: message read at 12:14, 21 Jul 92
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis spell

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
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Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Magic knowlege
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:54:06 GMT
Reply-To: Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., Marlboro, MA

Okay, I decided to split this out of the Cychosis spell thread (yes I do 
like the abbrev!).

Anyone out there know if a mage needs to know all the magic knowleges use 
in the spell he's designing?  Ie: I did a spell that went dark - liv force 
- dark.  I really wanted to go dark - magic - dark, but my mage doesn't 
have the knowlege "magic".  Can I use it for spell design or not?

--------------
Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
From: gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Grant R. Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Approved actions, changed from Idea to be kicked around
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:47:34 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <gatemail1.0b2058171911651@morticia> WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU (Colin J. Wynne) writes:

>The problem is that unskilled is a better result than stymie.  I have
>seen a proposed correction for this (I honestly can't remember if it
>was on this net, or in I-verse, or even somewhere else) that had two
>solutions:  either reverse the two outcomes on the interaction
>charts, or make 'stymie' into 'stymied and unskilled'.

My guess is that Unskilled originally meant that the target loses his roll
again on 20, but keeps his adds. Of course, that's pretty weak, but it was
probably their original intention.

The Grant Man
gdavis@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

"This is good[beer]. Remind me to take this world."-Lost Destiny


Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Deryni <RAGRIMES@VAX1.UMKC.EDU>
Subject: TORG axiom level/GEnie Internet
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 20:51:00 GMT


Of course, you're in REAL trouble when you start talking about Torg over
telecommunications networks like this.  Bumps that Tech axiom way up...
So, shhh!  Pretend you never brought it up.  ;)

And, speaking of telecommunications networks, GEnie will be opening
their Internet Gateway in the next few days.  I don't know what type
of account WEG has there.  Internal accounts (free everywhere) will
NOT be allowed to access the mail system, while regular accounts with
freeflags (i.e. the Games area where they are is free, but everything
else costs like it does with everyone else) will be able to for $9.95
a month.  Provided they have the latter, anyone want to help chip in
and buy WEG the access, so they can monitor our wonderful conversation
here, without Jim, Rick, or myself porting it over?  Of course, that's
assuming that they WANT to read our 30+ messages a day...  ;)

Alavairthae!
  Deryni
    aka Alan Grimes
      Technically telecommunicating...
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: "Colin J. Wynne"  <WYNNE.C@fs.sciences.WLU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Multi-Actions
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:45:55 GMT

jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:

> Andrew writes:
>
> > >you rush up the rocky hillside, narrowly avoiding the loose
> > >rocks.
> > >reaching the top, you whip out your pistol, BUT THE WIZARD HAS
> > >NOTICED YOU!
> > >suprised by this, you step back to aim, and hit the loose rocks
> > >you had
> > >just avoided, tumbling down the hill.
> > >(ouch. maybe you should have stealthed instead)
> >
> > Awfully bad cinema, if you ask me.  And what if he didn't notice
> > me?
>
> If he doesn't notice you then he probably didn't spend a Possibility
> to negate yours.  Unless of course, you ascribe to the theory that
> people can negate Possibilities spent on actions that they are not
> aware of.

I certainly ascribe to that theory.  Especially when my priest almost
got his head blown off by a sniper in a Spartan ambush.  It was
surprise, I as aplayer didn't expect it even, and that p-point (and
the two drama's, I think -- it was a _gooooood_ roll) saved my neck --
and jaw, and ears, and scalp...  you get the idea.

That's one of the things that makes a Knight what he is, KJ.  He
doesn't have to be able to see what's coming to be incredibly lucky.

CJW


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>                                         wynne.c.j@p9955.wlu.edu  >>
==  Colin J. Wynne                                  - or -          ==
<<                                      wynne.c@fs.science.wlu.edu  <<
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From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: A coupole simple questions...
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:33:58 GMT
Reply-To: Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., Marlboro, MA

In article <1992Jul28.061153.9975@eskimo.celestial.com> 
sabre@eskimo.celestial.com (Philip Rogers) writes:
> ... I am wondering how many of you use group powers.

We have three eternity shards in our group.  None of my characters have 
one so I don't know much about them.  The grail's herold we've only used 
once.  We've used shift possibilites from the other eternity shard several 
times, maybe once every other adventure.  The third shard I know nothing 
about (my wife, whose character carries it, won't tell me!!).

> Next I was wondering how do you all pronounce Stelae...

It's in the dictionary.  The singular is stele (pronounce steluh; sort of 
like the name).  Stelae (pronounce stel-lay) is the plural.

> Thirdly in you campaigns do you concentrate at all on the Nile-Empire
> magic of Mathamatics?

We had one character that had nile mathematics.  that character is 
retired.  Spells weren't very useful outside of the nile.

--------------
Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
From: albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Faith(Science)
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:33:35 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b

> due to the lack of focus, Science can deny acts other than miracles,
> such as psionics or witchcraft, if they do not fit into current theories
> (same method as for penalizing miracles)

	I _Really_ that that would make Faith(Science) too unbalancing.
And the converse should work then.  Does an edeinos who belives that
Lanala does everything then get to interfere with an engineer fixing
a flat tire with tools?  Or a doctor when using a scalpel?  If 
Joe Scientist gets to stop magic, then Joe Witch should be able to
crash his computer in return.

	Besides, it's starting to sound more and more like invoking
reality storms on somebody.  IMHO, a Reality Storm is shouting out
to the Everlaws that that guy over there shouldn't exist.  The E-Laws
agree and the two involved try to smash each others reality to conform
to their views.

-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
"Hmmmm, this sounds like *another* job for Stupendous Man!" - Calvin
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Atheism as a defense
Organization: New York University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 11:25:43 GMT

  I like the idea.  Does the atheist have to make a belief check when
confronted (for the first time, repeats don't count) with something of
supernatural origin?

  The atheists only trouble will be in situations where the party is
being aided by a friendly priest.  The atheist will have to do things
the hard way.  I could see this occuring in LL or LB.

  (Joe Savage has to climb the gigantic tree while the rest of the party
gets levitated by the power of the priests' miracle.  The priest protects
the party from the mind-shattering effects of the evil spirits that they
are fighting, while Joe Savage has to hack at them and block with his
belief in Atheism.)

  No bonus defense in Tharkhold, though.  At least Joe Savage will fight
on a level playing field with the Techno-Horrors (regarding faith, that
is).  I wonder if any of the GMs vampyres are atheist?  (Unusual, for
Orrorsh, but they could block Sacellum miracles.)


  
--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bchapman@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Bruce Patrick Chapman)
Subject: Re: Idea to be kicked about. (expanded)
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 11:12:45 GMT

>how do you deal with approved actions if the players do not have cards.

I had thought that approved actions were only there to give the players a
way of getting cards. If the players do not have cards then or use cards
then there is no point in approved actions and you do not need cards for
initative. This idea was ment to replace the need for cards not add to it

Before I get a deluge of posts saying cards add dramatic potential to the
game, let me say this system was designed for running the TORG rules in a
non-Torg setting with a much less dramatic/heroic feel to it so I am specificly
trying to remove the dramatic potential of the game.

I a related topic: If you run ords in a non-heroic game you have to remember
that they will have to fight much less tough opponents. A stock villan for
SK will slaughter a bunch of ords.



Organization: Junior, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA