From: bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com (J H Woodyatt)
Subject: Re: Revised consistency check
Reply-To: bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com
Organization: Abiogenesis 4 Less
Distribution: world  
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 02:00:01 GMT

<< Cue up `Ride of the Valkyries' >>

-------- Key -------
# chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney)
# > bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com (J H Woodyatt)

-----

# >How would I react with him sitting across the table with me arguing
# >abortion with me? Oh, I suppose not very different than I do when I'm
# >arguing it with anybody else.
# 
# Which means, for some, that their house would be rocking with massive
# flamewars. That is, unless, their kids don't argue the point and they
# just let their parents talk them down like crap. 

Heh. You should have seen how badly my dad got scorched when he sent
money off to Ronald Reagan in 1980. (I was 15.) I was so abused...

# You don't suppose the Kaufman household would be showering that
# unfortunate kid with 30 or so variations of the word "pro-force"
# daily? I would.

I don't suppose anything about the Kaufman household. *I* don't live
there. Neither do you. I think you should shut the hell up about the
Kaufman household and everything else you can't possibly know about.

Besides, even if he did -- this is abuse? Kee-righst, you *are* naive.
Arguing politics with your teenage offspring is *not* abuse. It might
actually be good for them. Beating them up, starving them, chaining
them to the radiator -- *that's* abuse. (Emotional abuse is harder to
qualify in a five syllable sound bite, but telling your anti-abortion
activist kid that s/he's promoting slavery, is *not* abuse.)

-----

# >Have you asked the `NOW crowd' for their opinions regarding testicular
# >potency? My fiancee is a member of NOW. I know several other members.
# >Believe me. You misunderstand the feminist mindset. Oh, boy, do you
# >have it all wrong.
# 
# I was right in the middle of it, (name-calling deleted). 

Oh, go on Chaney, call me names. I've got a thick skin. I haven't torn
into you about your overuse of the misnomer `pro-abort' because I
don't care to quibble over lexicon, but if you want to try your hand
at calling me some really good names, go right on ahead. Call me
names.

*Maybe* I won't ridicule you if your invective amuses me.

# These are the same folks who cry about women jokes made by sexist men
# about women (AKA "Blonde jokes, etc."), and then who make up buttons
# like "The more I know men, the more I like my cat" and the
# Congressional circulation that's going around to women on the Hill,
# like "Why do they need female astronauts? In case the rest get
# lost..." and other nice stuff. 
# 
# Do we hear the NOW talking about _that_ kind of sexism as much as they
# do about male sexism? The NOW doesn't, never has, and never will. They,
# if not quite as man-hating as I say they are, are grossly hypocritical
# if they try to say they're for "equal rights."  

You just don't get it, do you? Feminism isn't about equal rights to be
the butt of dumb jokes. And no, I'm not going to explain what it *is*
about at the third grade level in talk.abortion, just so you might
have an opportunity to clue in.

-----

# >Is this something that absolutely requires direct action?
# 
# It would if you got a good enough ribbing from your friends.

I am not going to disown my children because my friends rib me about
them.

I am not going to kick my kids out onto the streets because my friends
rib me about them.

I am not going to slap my kids around because my friends rib me about
them.

I am *not*, I repeat NOT, going to abuse my child because my friends
are ribbing me. Is this too tough to get your head around?

-----

# >Am I to understand that if you were to produce offspring and visiting
# >friends observed that your offspring were not an identical
# >reproduction of you, that you would feel the need to take direct
# >action explicitly to remedy such a situation?
# 
# No, you wouldn't come to that understanding if you were smart, and I
# would be disappointed if you proved to be stupid. (It indicates an
# overestimation on my part.) You would come to the understanding that
# to some pro-aborts, being pro-life is to them what being Neo-Nazi is
# to most American families, and if their actions here indicate
# anything, it would indicate that their tolerance for pro-life views
# ranges from negative to nil. 

Okay. Let me reiterate: Rational and sane people do not emotionally or
physically abuse their children over political disagreements. Unless
you disagree with that statement, your saying that *some* pro-choice
people are not rational and sane.

Great. I got disk blocks coming out of my wazoo for storing
enlightening tidbits of priceless information like that.

Here, I'll spare you one so you can save bandwidth:

	------------
	| Chaney's |
	|  Disk    |
	|   Block  |
	------------
[1]

-----

# >Okay. Imagine the worst possible scenario. Say I'm a single father. I
# >bring home a date. My kid is a raving pro-lifer. She finds out my date
# >is a bisexual, mutant feminist biker who actively defends women's
# >health clinics from the likes of her and her friends. My date looks at
# >me like I'm a martian. ``How did you raise such a monster?'' she asks.
# >I say, ``It's sometimes difficult.''
# >
# >What really needs to be done here? I'm at a complete loss to
# >understand how you can actually think I'd abandon/abuse/neglect my
# >child just because her views aren't identical to mine.
# 
# Like I said, it is not a normal disagreement, regarding this issue.
# Now, how's about your date leaves you? 

How in the nine thousand blasphemous names of God am I going to hold
my kid responsible for my date's actions???

-----

# >I would. Send those parents to me. I will chew each of them a wide
# >variety of new excretion orifices, to use a colorful expression. I'd
# >have a bigger beef, if their children were actually children and not
# >just adult dependents.
# 
# No, they average in the teens. Like I said, I didn't say there was
# abuse or face-slapping going on, but these parents like to "HOW IN THE
# HELL CAN YOU STAND SUCH BULLSHIT GET OUTA MY FACE AND DON'T EVER SAY
# THAT AGAIN..."

You get my award for Most Confusing Infinitive Verb Clause. I simply
can't parse that sentence.

As near as I can tell, what's got you all ruffled is that some of your
friends have parents who don't approve of the things you're rightfully
doing, and what's pissing you right the hell off, is that they have
the nerve to express that disapproval to their teenage childrens'
faces by shouting.

Alert the media.

``Next on Geraldo: Teens Whose Parents Shout At Them''

# NOT the kind of thing I'd ever do to my kids, even _if_ they had a
# different opinion than I did.  

Oh, no. You'd *never* shout at your kids. Ever.

Heh. Get me a bucket.

-----

# >If you think anybody is justified in tormenting their children solely
# >because of their political views, you're a sick bastard. Please. Don't
# >have children. If you do, please, try to get someone else to raise
# >them.
# 
# I didn't say that. I said, however, that in Kaufman's, Humphrey's,
# Garvin's or Regard's case, torment ratios could range from common to
# majority and that their kids are better off keeping their mouths shut
# in those households if they happen to develop dissenting opinions. 

So, Herr Chaney, you studied under Jung, did you? Tell me, what did
you think of Freud's ideas about the female annhilation anxiety and
it's relation to penis envy?

STOP PROJECTING. SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, AND YOURSELF ONLY.

-----

# I mean, come on, man, just go to a clinic and LOOK.

I volunteer three hours a week for the Bay Area Coalition for
Reproductive Rights defending a women's health clinic in Redwood City.
You're not going to snow me about what happens at these clinics.

#                                                      See the peaceful
# people just handing out pamphlets and fliers? See the escorts jeering
# at them and throwing stuff and elbowing pro-lifers?

I have never seen elbowing and throwing of `stuff' from the clinic
defense types. I *have* been involved in a few scuffles where pro-life
types have rushed the clinic. I have seen a pro-choice man picked up
and his head banged against a wall by an irate pro-lifer for no
readily discernable reason.

The people who come out to the clinics on the pro-life side are not
run of the mill abortion foes -- they're four-star, grade A, U.S.
Government Certified lunatics. (To be fair, the pro-choice types who
come out to defend them, do not seem to be run of the mill abortion
rights supporters. My fiancee, for instance, won't defend the clinic,
even though she's pro-choice.)

Jeers? Yeah, I've seen it. I've done it. Some of these people are so
wonked that there's absoflippinglutely nothing else to do with them,
but jeer at them in the hopes that they won't notice the clients when
they come to the clinic.

Would I treat my kid like that? Any kid of mine that got as messed up
as these people have to get before I'll start serving up the verbal
abuse will have had a hard time living in my household anyway, what
with all the fornication, pornography, obscene books, discs, Satanic
music, blasphemy and other general sinfulness in my house. Such a kid
will have `disowned' me, long before I warm up the flamethrower.

Again. A real good reason for religious use of contraceptives.

#                                                     See the camcorders
# recording this stuff and not being allowed as evidence in court (such
# as the case here in Sacramento in a court injunction case at the
# Feminist Women's Health Center)?

Heh. Never works for us, either. That's why the police have been
sending around their own videocamera.

#                                 You think these pro-choicers would be
# nice on pro-life kids after lying to judges to get protestors put in
# jail or barred from their first amendment rights to peaceful protest? 
# Do you think those pro-aborts who beat the living crap out of the
# Minnesota pro-life Democrats at the DNC in NY, who were going to cast
# their vote for Governor Casey, would contort themselves into
# "tolerance" at home for dissenting opinions? 

Nice `guilt by association' trick there, but you're still not a
master. Walk on. 

Repeat. Do not associate every pro-choice poster to this group with
the most deranged abortion rights supporters you meet at the clinic.
If I had done that with you, I would not have bothered with writing a
gazillion lines of flamage at you. I would merely have demanded to
know whether you have accepted Satan as your Lord and Savior yet.

Some people are irrational and insane. Some of them are pro-choice.
Some of them are anti-abortion. Rational and sane people do not
physically or emotionally abuse their children over politcal issues.

Get a grip. Please. And soon. Before you turn completely into a Tool
of the Devil.

-----

I'm growing bored with this thread, Mr. Chaney. You've pretty much
backed down from the ferocious, screaming mutant weirdness that
started this, so I don't intend to respond to any followups.

-- 
J H Woodyatt (a.k.a. Dr. Strychnine)
Space Systems/Loral

"I am fully prepared to anoint myself with the rancid fat of a feral
sow and run naked through town while the villagers throw pot-stickers
at me."
                                                     -- Michael Rigler

[1] Copyright 1991, Roger Carasso
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:31826 alt.flame:12084