HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: leibowitz
Date: 24 Jan 93 17:51:19 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <23273@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <2022@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>>
>>
>> I don't want to appear totally ignorant here but didn't Professor
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Leibowitz die in 1991? Are we talking about the same Leibowitz? The
>> biochemist who talks about 'JudeoNazis' or whatever. A really old
>> guy who fled from Hitler in 193something? Are you sure he is still
>> alive because I am sure I heard he died.

You know about him much more than 15% of the Israeli population
answered to a pole run by Yediot that they don't know who is "peof..
Leibowitz" ( 54% said they object prizing him 31% supported the prize).

>Not only is he not dead, he was just this week nominated for the
> Israel Prize, a high honor to be bestowed upon him by the Israeli
>state...

This information even technically can be considered as correct, is not
so.
As it is known at this moment Shulamit Aloni the leader of the fanatic
leftists and the minister of education , selected the 3 prize commity
members after at least 2 others Professor Anita Shapira and Efrayim
Evron a former israeli Ambassador to the US , refused entering the
commity in order to select the selected-in-advanced-by-Aloni  Prof.
Leobowitz.
( the commity members are 2 Peace-Now leaders and a head of some
unknown very small kipa-wearing- Peace-Now group ).
The government decided today to strongly object the prize, but not to
abort Alonies decision of prizing Leobowitz. Pri minister Rabin
declared he will not participate in the prize ceremony.

Leibowitz ideas about Israel and the Jews are about those of Yigal
Arens.

Shalom    gideon Ehrlich   ERETZ YISRAEL

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26315 talk.politics.soviet:10750 soc.culture.europe:11438 soc.history:10993
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb)" - "news.fascism.policy" strikes again.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 20:24:53 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <kbibb.727819908@maui> kbibb@maui.qualcomm.com (Ken Bibb) writes:

>If you are going to make postings like this, do it once only, and make
>it more informational than sales:  

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Typical "bibbo" drivel. Disgusting, 
you say?


          Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:

"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead 
 and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.  All are the bodies 
 of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31 
 we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing 
 uniform.  All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
 children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children 
 cradled in the women's arms.  Several of them, including one small girl, had 
 terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they 
 saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
 Anatol Lieven
 The Times (London), 3/3/92

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism / Center for Pol
Date: 24 Jan 93 23:27:04 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.  Fremont, California

In article <1jt5t2INNd25@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article <1jkl20INNqks@manuel.anu.edu.au> I wrote:
>>In article 14967@cirrus.com, chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>>>In article <1483500321@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) >writes:
> 
>>>>I thought this forum is concerned with the Middle East, not with
>>>>sterile discussions about Judaism.
> 
>>>>The debate about Judaism/Racism has little to do with finesses.
> 
>>>....
> 
>>>>I urge every person to acquaint itself with these tangible
>>>>and terrible aspects of Jewish/Zionist racism. 
> 
>>>What kind of statement is this?  You and Wayne and MEQ consistantly
>>>label Jews and Zionists as racists, as you have done above. 
> 
>>What kind of vicious lie is this?  No posting in the MEQ series,
>>nor any posting of its editor (me) has ever labelled Jews and
>>Zionists (in general) as racists.  Let's see if you are adult
>>enough to prove your claim or apologise.

MEQ #12.  Chaim Weizmann expresses his admiration of Arabs.

>Brendan.

-- Chris Metcalfe
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: zionism in crisis
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 04:43:42 GMT

L-Bueno@cup.portal.com (Louis Alberto Bueno) writes:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
 
## Depends on your point of view. For instance, two great rebellions of the
## Jews - against the Selukites and the Romans - occured because of the
## attempt of these foreign rulers to eradicate the Jewish religion by
## force (by executing practicing Jews etc). These were, to the best of
## my knowledeg, the last instances of Jews going to war for religious reasons.
 
# 	Then I have a question: Since Israel is founded on Zionism, which
# is indisputably a Jewish political movement, and considering that Judaism
# is a religion, would then this make the state of Israel a theocracy?

No, since Zionism is a political movement, it was not religiously
motivated. Most definitly, Israel is not a theocracy, although many
Israelis feel that state and religion should be further seperated.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politice.soviet
From: geoff@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Seeking pub.date (and refs to any reviews) of "The Fire This Time"
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:41:24 GMT
Reply-To: geoff@East.Sun.COM
Organization: SunSelect
NNTP-Posting-Host: tyger.east.sun.com

Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but I don't normally lurk in this group.

I just picked up a copy of Ramsey Clark's "The Fire This Time", about
US ware crimes in the Gulf War. It was published in 1992, but I don't
know *when* in 1992. Does anyone know the exact date? I'mm interested
in finding out whether and where it was reviewed in any US
papers/journals.

---
Geoff Arnold, PC-NFS architect, Sun Select. (geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26404 soc.culture.turkish:15180
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:05:26 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan20.155119.12175@news.tufts.edu> nraclaw@jade.tufts.edu (Nissan Raclaw) writes:
->
->[...]  deir
->yassin was a village harboring Iraqi irregulars, and Alex Odeh's murder
->might be terrorism, but then again, maybe not, because his death had no
->other purpose but the elimination of Alex Odeh.

I've read some bloody stupid things on this newsgroup, but this is one of
the stupidest. I doubt that even Makowsky would agree with you here. But
then again, perhaps he will.






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

Unauthorised access is a criminal offence under The Computer Misuse Act 1990.
If you are a British Airways employee, disconnect NOW.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26265 soc.culture.turkish:14994
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Methods employed by the Armenians in the genocide of 2.5 million Turks.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:24:47 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan22.195231.13076@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>to you. Your posters seem more and more like the "Argic" posters,

Now let the "uri-ne" of "perlmanian" translate it for you.

Source: Neside Kerem Demir, "Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve 
        Yayin T.A.S., Ankara, 1982.

pp. 116-117.

"Ilica kasabasindan kacamayan Turkler'in hepsinin oldurulmus oldugunu ve
 kor baltalarla enselerinden kesilmis bircok cocuk cenazesi gordugunu
 bizzat Odiselidze soyledi. Ilica kirginindan uc hafta sonra oradan donen
 Yarbay Griyaznof, gorduklerini soyle anlatti:

 'Koylere giden yollarda, uzuvlari tahrip edilmis bircok cenazeye rastladim.
 Her gecen Ermeni, bu cesetlere bir kere soger ve tukururmus. 12 - 15 sajen
 (25.5 - 31.9 metre) karelik cami avlusunda iki arsin (142 santim) 
 yuksekliginde cenaze yigilmisti. Bunlarin arasinda her yasta kadin, erkek,
 cocuk ve yaslilar vardi. Kadin cenazelerinde zorla irza gecme izleri, pek
 belli bir halde idi. Bircok kadin ve kizlarin tenasul yerlerine, tufek
 fisegi sokulmustu...Ermeniler, bir kadini canli oldugu halde, duvara 
 civilemisler; sonra gogsunu oyup, basinin ustune asmislar.'"

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:41:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23048@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>You mentioned a few converts who are prominent in Israeli life.
>
>I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
>the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
>establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
>matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
>concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.

	The number of converts to Judaism is small.  Are you suggesting
that we promote people, iregardless of ability, on the basis that they
are converted?  No can do for two reasons, one, its disgusting
tokenism, and two, Halacha prohibits reminding a convert of their
former status.

	And please tell us, what is an ethnic Jew?



Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 16:42:49 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <schoinas.728037943@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) writes:

>>TURKISH CYPRIOTS ARE OF TURKISH DECENT AND THEY WILL BE THE REPRESENTATIVES
>>OF THE TURKISH RACE IN CYPRUS FOREVER. SWALLOW IT !!!!!

>Turkish race? He,he. Nice joke.

But this year a bargain has been struck in the name of the "Palikiye"
Method. Anatolia under the early Seljuks was a loosely united territory. 
But under Sultan 'Alaeddin Keykubat,' who reigned from 1219 to 1236, most 
of what is now Turkiye was united in a tolerant, pluralistic kingdom 
in which Christians and Muslim served in a common Army. Sorry, but the
Armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background. Armenians have 
never achieved statehood and independence, they have always been subservient, 
and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers. They committed 
genocide against the Muslim populations of Eastern Anatolia and Armenian 
Republic before and during World War I and fully participated in the 
extermination of the European Jewry during World War II. 

Now, how about some good news for a change? The Ottoman Empire expanded 
by acts of war and the Ottoman yoke was often consciously preferred to 
that of an existing tyranny. During the 16th century, for example, the
island of Cyprus was under Venetian rule. The Venetians treated the
Greek-speaking islanders like European serfs. In 1563 a number of
Cypriots, led by their priests, contacted the Ottomans and asked 
them to put the island under their care. Need I go on? Why not?

The first historical mention of Turkish-speakers comes from
Central Asia. They originated in a vast steppe area that even today
is still Turkish in ethnic makeup and includes the x-Soviet Central
Asian Republics, as well as parts of Afghanistan and China. In Central
Asia, the Turks converted to Islam in the late eighth and ninth 
centuries and gained contacts with the Middle East. Turkish rulers
and armies entered Northeastern Iran, Afghanistan, and India in the
ninth and tenth centuries. However, the mass migration of Turks
into the Western Middle East began with the movement of nomad armies
into Iran in 1037, led by the Seljuk family. Turks were by far the
largest ethnic and linguistic group in Anatolia, southwest Transcaucasia 
(today Azerbaijan), northeastern Iran, and the Crimea and its hinterlands.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: jews as a race
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:32:19 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Josh Backon

I'm quickly trying to catch up on a meg of messages, so this will
be brief.

Let's all try to keep our cool, ok? Let's try to treat one
another with mutual respect and friendliness, and I hope you will
try to help me understand what the connections between religion
and ethnicity in Israel are all about.

I don't think I'm a stupid person, but so far I cannot make heads
or tails of the various explanations I have seen so far, and I am
trying my damnedest.

You mentioned a few converts who are prominent in Israeli life.
(I note that two of them are wives are prominent Israelis, but we
will let that pass.)

I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.

Shamir was not a religious man, according to what I have read.
Like Ben-Gurion, he may have even been an atheist. Certainly he
wasn't an observant Jew. Like Jabotinsky, his mentor, he was a
Jewish patriot in the ETHNIC sense, just like an Italian or
German might be an Italian or German patriot.

The Israeli power structure is overwhelmingly controlled by
ethnic Jews, many of whom have no religious beliefs whatever.

Is not Israel an ethnocentric state, despite the policy of
admitting a few converts each year? And don't those converts have
to accept and submit to a system which is controlled by ethnic
Jews, and which is dedicated to their interests and agenda?

If I misunderstand, please explain. Enlighten me.

Thanks,

Wayne
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Knights Templar Supercomputer Network
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26414 talk.politics.soviet:10848 soc.culture.turkish:15184
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The architect of the Turkish genocide in action.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 21:20:23 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan26.234230.103288@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

>My killfile works again. No more mudlu followups from me!

Breaks "arromdian"s heart. Maniacal victory of the genocide apologists.

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                  (Ohanus Appressian - 1919)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian - 1920)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26209 talk.politics.soviet:10694 soc.culture.europe:11383 soc.history:10938 soc.culture.turkish:14895
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice...
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 22:19:54 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1jpap5INNt06@network.ucsd.edu> ajc@papillon.ucsd.edu (The Smoking Gun) writes:

>Don't play with fire, jack, or you're likely to get burned.
>But, go ahead if you want:

Always. During World War I when Ottoman Empire was in a war of 
death or life, the Armenians started a revolt against the Ottoman 
state, collaborated with her enemies and subjected the innocent 
and defenseless Turkish civilians to wide-spread and general massacre, 
and genocide.

However, despite the genocidal policy of the x-Soviet Armenian 
Government, during the 78 years following the genocide, in a small 
portion of Turkish historic lands there exists a Turkish Karabag in 
the diaspora, the dispersed Turkish and Kurdish communities lifting 
themselves from their refugee status, have become strongholds of 
Turkish and Kurdish culture and national aspirations. They have, 
by their existence, transformed the Muslim Question into a political 
demand - the Turkish and Kurdish Case.

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- As taxpayers of the United States, we express our vehement 
protest to the present U.S. Government policy of continued 
coddling, protection and unqualified assistance towards x-Soviet
Armenia.

- We also demand that the United States return to the policies 
advocated by Admiral Bristol and other enlightened statesmen,
who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude
towards the rights of the Turkish and Kurdish people and the
just resolution of their Case.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26281 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10702 soc.culture.europe:11415 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1367 soc.culture.croatia:504
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: islam & ethnicity
Date: 21 Jan 93 23:32:20 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Danny Keren

You accused me of ignorance about Islam thus:

 DK> Yet you know nothing about the Bible or the most basic
 DK> facts about Islam (such as it passing from the side of the
 DK> father).

Waleed Muhanna, who may know more about Islam than you do,
replied:

 WM> This is not true.  You should get your facts straight.  One
 WM> is not considered a Muslim just because his/her father
 WM> happens to be a Muslim. A child of a Muslim is assumed to be
 WM> a Muslim, just like the child of a Christian can be assumed
 WM> to be Christian. But, by definition, you are a Muslim if you
 WM> believe in the Islamic faith and uphold/perform the
 WM> *religious* duties of Islam (e.g., prayers, zakah);
 WM> otherwise you are not.  A non- practicing Muslims can
 WM> *claim* to be a Muslim, but that doesn't make him/her so.
 WM> Anyone can become a Muslim and there are no formal
 WM> procedures for conversion.

So who has a better grasp of the facts about Islam, you or
Waleed?

According to Waleed, a Muslim is defined by his religious beliefs
and performance. Islam would not seem to constitute an ethnicity
in any biological sense.

According to Israel, a Jew is defined by his or her matrilineal
bloodline. Thus a Soviet Jew who is an atheist, and who may have
descended from parents or grandparents who are atheists, is still
a Jew.

So what's the scoop?
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  A dialogue is when two people talk to themselves.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26219 rec.arts.books:26206 soc.culture.turkish:14903