From: xeno@iastate.edu (Gary L Snethen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: Sex and the Single Esperantist
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:37:59 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <920816221418_72627.2647_DHJ52-1@CompuServe.COM> 72627.2647@compuserve.com (Don HARLOW) writes:

>I don't think this is actually something to worry about. Children learn 
>words as words, not as combinations. "Fe-MALE" and "wo-MAN" 
>don't seem to have any significant effect on the self-esteem of small 
>English-speaking girls; that comes later, and from other factors, which 
>you mention. The question of men doing better than women in math 
>(which I mention in another posting) is an example; I've also known 
>women (e.g., my three daughters) who have grown up in environments 
>where their parents, consciously or unconsciously, protected them from 
>this sort of female-bashing ("Women just can't do that sort of thing, dear. 
>Go play with your Barbie dolls."), and they do as well as at least the 
>average male at math, "female" and "woman" notwithstanding.

>(Incidentally, in Esperanto the first forms that a child learns are not 
>"patro" and "patrino", but "pacxjo" and "panjo" -- "daddy" and 
>"mommy" -- which _are_ symmetric, in Esperanto as in English. 
>These "endearing" suffixes -- which are, incidentally, the only real 
>case of "inflection" in Esperanto -- are common at this age, much 
>more so than the more formal -IN-.)


Don,

   I am sure that you are a wonderful father (NO SARCASM HERE), and
you have given your daughters wonderful influence...  I have known many very
intelligent women, who have excelled greatly in math, physics, engineering
and other traditionally male-dominated fields.  Each one of them felt that
society viewed her as secondary to men, and each had trouble believing in
herself when put into competition with men.  Those who take 'woman studies'
or similar courses learn that the psychological impact of gender unsymmetric
languages on children is great.  The children do indeed learn the word
'patrino' to mean 'mother' and not 'female father,' but as they pass through
the analytical stages of development, they begin to see the difference and
to question within themselves why it exists...  I, for one, distinctly
remember doing this as a child with the words 'woman' and 'man', 'male' and
'female', etc.  (in the same breath, I might mention that the 'what are
little boys made of?' rhyme caused me great distress)

   If a woman complains that something bothers her (such as unsymmetric
grammar), then it DOES.  Her single exception breaks the rule that it
does no harm...  There are people who are affected, both men and women.
Whether or not the language will change to accomodate those affected is
a battle between the flexibility of the language and of the people.
Esperanto is (in my opinion) a great language, and one designed with
flexibility, so I would choose to use it to its greatest good as I would
see it...  If my methods don't stand the test of time, they aren't meant
to be.

>>La opinio de unu viro.     The opinion of one human being.

>Viro = man (male), homo = human being. The use of "man" 
>for "human being" is a genuinely sexist Anglicism that doesn't 
>carry over into Esperanto.

Don,

   This was intentional.

   Traditionally, viro = man, virino = woman.  In the letter, I supported
the use of the suffix 'icx' for the masculine.  Thus, under this system:
viricxo = man and virino = woman, in order to provide absolute symmetry.
The neutral term, viro, (in a truly symmetric system) must come to mean that
from which men and women are derived... parallel to 'human' yet perhaps
different.  I would take it to mean that part of men and women shared by
both (mathematically: homo = the union of men and women.  viro = the
intersection of men and women, ie. everything men and women share in common.)

Thus:

La opinio de unu viro...  The opinion of one human being...

(I was concerned that this would be too subtle for some to catch... please
 pardon me if I've insulted anyone.)


>=============================================
>Don HARLOW                                Redaktoro Esperanto U.S.A.
>tel. (1 510) 222 0187
>CompuServe [72627,2647]
>Internet 72627.2647@compuserve.com

>"To discipline Esperantists is to eat soup with chopsticks."
>                                                          Confucius
>=============================================


By the way, Don...  I appreciate your measured, intelligent postings...

---Xeno (Gary) Snethen