From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 08 Jan 93 10:46 PST
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Nf-ID: #R:1hs8brEINNfle@uni-erlangen.de:-1634168734:cdp:1678600069:000:4200
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  8 10:46:00 1993


Hi y'all,

I have been trying to figure out the main point that the Libertarians
have been making on this discussion.  It seems the Libertarians are
saying that there are essentially two factors which motivate humans.

The first factor is that humans desire to privately accumulate wealth
and that this desire, if unencumbered by government, will lead to
just and sustainable society because of the forces of a "free market".
They also seem to define wealth as only material wealth.  The
Libertarians, of course, think this is good.

The second factor is that humans also desire to control each other
by forming together in "governments".  They see that this control
is usually manifested through "encumbering" the individual's ability
to privately accumulate wealth.  The Libertarians, of course, think
this is bad.

Therefore, it seems that the primary contribution the Libertarians
are making to this discussion is that it is important to minimize
the second factor in order to increase the first.  Is this correct?

Greens, on the other hand (or at least myself), question that the
"free market" will bring about these good things because there does
not seem to be any historical basis in this assumption.  But, as we
all know, history can be interpreted in many ways.  Greens also define
wealth as significantly more than simple material wealth.  We look at
wealth as community solidarity, biological diversity, and spiritual
wealth, and are painfully aware how an over emphasis on material wealth
tends to destroy these other kinds of wealth.

We are also aware of how illusive material wealth can be.  During the
Depression many only received 20 to 40% of their bank savings when the
Stock Market crashed.  History from the time of the Peloponnesian Wars in
ancient Greece to the current financial crisis in the European Community
and the former Soviet Republics is filled with examples of material wealth
seeming to evaporate into thin air.  Many of us currently worry that the
failure of mainstream politicians to correct the problem of runaway U.S.
Government debt will also tragically devalue all our wealth, as it is
denominated in U.S. dollars.

Greens do, however, share the Libertarian goals of decentralization and
opposition to centralized control.  Our difference on this point is that
the Libertarians only seem to see the threat of centralized control coming
from the government, whereas The Greens recognize that this threat can
come in many forms.  We see centralized control as a problem whether it
occurs in private industry, the government, regulated monopolies, community
and volunteer organizations or the country club.  Our response to these
tendencies is not, however, a defiant anarchy, but rather a commitment to
bring a consensus-based democracy to all these human endeavors.

As with all my comments, my goal is to fairly explain the views that Greens,
in general, hold.  However, I do only speak for myself.

Dale

P.S.  I have written this summary in an attempt to wrap up the discussion.
It seems that we have covered a lot of territory and, in general, been
respectful of diverse opinions.  While we may not have necessarily covered
all the important points in sufficient detail, I think we have covered
enough of the points to get a basic idea as to the different opinions
that we each hold.  If I am wrong and there are still important points
to be discussed, then I am open to continuing.  On the other hand, if we
each feel that we have sufficiently expressed our opinions on these issues,
I would like to suggest that we try to wrap this discussion up.

I encourage as many as feel moved, including The Libertarians, to
provide their own summaries.  Let's, however, be respectful and avoid
the temptation to provoking each other in rehashing the old issues.
You can also take the opportunity in your summary to point us to other
discussions on the net which might relate to some of these topics.  For
example, some of the participants might be interested in more detailed
discussions of Libertarian and Capitalist theories, etc.  Please remember
that the primary purpose of this newsgroup is for Green Party discussion,
organizing and announcements.

Peace.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens