HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Macedonia
Date: 12 Sep 92 15:14:25 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek

sk@groo.sunbim.be (Sasa Konecni) writes:

>Bibliography:
>THE REAL MACEDONIANS by John Shea
>	Chapter 7:  Macedonia: A Language/Culture Mix
>(The maps on the covers show the Northern and
>Western boundaries of Macedonia at the time of Philip II, as
>shown in "Macedonia"-General Editor M.B. Sakellariou,
>published by Ekdotike Athenon S.A., Athens, 1983, p. 118. The
>boundaries show that modern day Skopje was included in
>Macedonia even at that time.)

Again creating impressions, quoting carefully selected parts and omitting 
the real history...

At the time of Philip II, the Macedonian State was extended both to the 
North and the East occupying non-Macedonian peoples. In particular, the 
populations living around the area which today constitutes the ex-Yugoslavia's 
"People's Socialist Republic of Macedonia", were traditionally enemies of 
the Macedonians (these tribes were known with the name Dardans and the region 
as Paeonia), and Philip II was the first who conducted successful campaigns 
against them, moving the northern boundaries of his kingdom... Philip's son, 
Alexander the Great ["and the Greeks except the Spartans" -- quoted by 
Alexander the Great, you can find it in Arrianos' history of his campaigns] 
moved this border up to India. Does this mean that people living in today's 
Pakistan, were ...Macedonians?
 
Sasa, there is no problem that you don't know the history of Ancient Macedonia.
There is a plethora of books and you can consult them (I'd suggest the books
written by Professor Nickolas Hammond, he is a well-known authority). But, 
knowing this history  and quoting these maps omitting the full history, 
in order to imply a link between ancient Macedonia and the ex-Yugoslavia's 
"People's Socialist Republic of Macedonia", excuse me, but this is called 
propaganda...

However, I'm happy that you quote a book written by M. Sakellariou
(he is the president of the Greek Academy, and well-known in Greece, I
have no family ties with him...); Would you like to send this book to
you?

--r.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: yamen@cae.wisc.edu (Soner Yamen)
Subject: Re: ISO's Greek sister organisation facing treason charges over Macedonia.
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:30:06 CDT

In article <1992Sep15.155158.9627@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>In article <9226000.10878@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>> 
>>Article from "The Socialist" No. 268, September, 1992.
>> 
>> Solidarity work continues for the five comrades in the ISO's Greek sister 
>>organisation facing treason charges.
>
>  What I find absolutely disgusting in the whole matter of the recognition of
>the Skopjans is their apparent willingness to work with ANY group that will 
>help them achieve their goals.
>
>  Just look at some of the organizations whom the Skopjans have been working 
>with toward this end:
>
>1. The Vatican - the Pope was accepted in the spring of 1990 into the 
>   "Macedonian Writer's Association" as honorary member.  
>
>2. The terrorist-fascist VMRO - it was founded by a group of fanatics in Skopje
>   in the summer of 1990, and is led by a Bulgarian who brags that his title is
>   "Duke" Ljupco.
>
>3. The Turks - even on this newsgroup, Goce Naumoski shocked me with his posts
>   of condemning Greeks for their treatment of some muslim minority in Greece,
>   who he claims are Turks.  Goce, if you are reading this, let me make it 
>   clear to you that you should be ashamed *big time* for doing this. The Turks
>   oppressed all our Orthodox people for 500 years, and you are willing to 
>   stoop so low as to cajole them, all for your hate of Greeks...SHAME ON YOU !
>

Okay, what if somebody claims that the Greek minority living in Turkey
are actually Christian Turks?

Let them decide what they are! After all we tried very hard to convince
our Kurds that they are only mountain-Turks for 70+ years and sure
it is not working!

And although I fed up about it, hope the last time I'll respond to
your "500 years of oppression". I wonder how did you ever manage to
live for 500 years under oppression of Ottomans, while there were 
nobody to help you, no UN, no international organizations, no help...
Don't tell me the mountain story again. We have seen what ethnic 
cleansing is and I wonder if you can count up to 500. 500 years of
oppression and you are still Orthodox, you have your churches, you
haven't lost your heritage...

But I know, you read the textbooks at high school and assummed
whatever written there is absolute truth!

>4. Commie bastards - and now at last, we are getting newspaper articles on
>   scy/scg from "The Socialist".
>
>
>Who will be next, I wonder.
>
>Regards,
>Milan
>===============================================================================
>	M A C E D O N I A.....G R E E K   F O R   4 0 0 0   Y E A R S
>===============================================================================

No insult intended but what if we interpret is as 4000 years of Greek
oppression on Macedonians? Just kidding!

Cheers,  

-Soner 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: tsioutsias-dimitris@CS.YALE.EDU (Dimitris Ioannis Tsioutsias)
Subject: Re: check out this bob
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 12:37:39 GMT

	
From: "mike vanier" <mike.vanier@canrem.com>
Date: 5 Sep 92 06:08:16 EST
>>>>>>>>>
Once again.  The only people who claim that the Macedonian identity was
created fifty years ago  are the Greeks and the Bulgarians.  They do
this because they currently occupy large sections of Macedonia.  Neither
the Bulgars nor the Greeks can trust their Macedonian minority and must
therefore "keep it down", to the point of denying its very existence.
How unusual it is that in the region commonly referred to as Macedonia
there should exist no such thing as Macedonians.
<<<<<<<<<

	Why don't you go to a psychiatric "mike.vanier"? 
	Then your mind might clear up and stop producing 
	such stupidities, as the ones above, that exist
	only in your hopeful dreams. Don't sleep so much,
	it makes your simple mind incapable of thinking.
	And keep both hands outside the blanket..


	->dimitris
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8545 soc.culture.europe:8173
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Counting in Greek
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:26:04 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Sep14.204558.29349@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

[deleted]

>No, you may not. Serbia did no such thing nor will it until the Skopjans
>stop calling themselves "Macedonians".

What an irony  - the 'inventors' of the 'Macedonian' nationality will not
call it anymore like this :-(

>As far as I'm concerned, 

What does it matters what are you concerned with? It matters what the
people of Macedonia think and what they are concerned.

>the only relations that Serbia can have with the 
>Skopjans is when they accept the following facts:
>
>		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
>
>	   S K O P L J E  =  S O U T H E R N   S E R B I A

???? Is Macedonia the next on the invasion list?

>Milan

Luben
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS !!!!
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:39:02 GMT


[The number of entertaining articles from Australia is constantly increased]

In <1992Sep10.194915.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> c8638760@cc.newcastle.edu.au 
(THE MACEDONIAN STATE--------> IS INEVITABLE) writes:

>  I AM VERY SORRY BUT YOU CAN NOT BE MACEDONIAN AND GREEK AT THE SAME TIME.
Isn't a Sicilian, Italian at the same time?

>      @    MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEK ,SERBIAN,BULGARIAN,ALBANIAN AS THESE 
This one reminds me communist propaganda...

>           PEOPLE WOULD WANT THEM TO BE, AND MOST OF ALL ARE NOT SLAVS!
Certainly, Greeks are not Slavs!

>      @    LONGLIVE THE MACEDONIAN KINGS
Who are these?

>           LONGLIVE THE MACEDONIAN HISTORY,
Which one? The one written by Gligor Apoleski?

>AND ARE 
>           NOT MOST OF ALL SLAVS!
What are they? The descendants of Alexander the Great?
From: am@sys.uea.ac.uk (A. Machaeridis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: how european do the turks feel
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:04:48 GMT
Organization: UEA School of Information Systems, Norwich, UK.

yamen@cae.wisc.edu (Soner Yamen) writes:

>I am one of them! We ruled Greece with justice for centuries.

>My intention is not to insult Greeks or any other European people.
>I think, there are individual Europeans who do not support the 
>ideas/policies dominant in the Western countries. Similarly, 
>you should not blame me because of the puppet regimes of Middle 
>Eastern countries. 

>-Soner /not European, not even Asian but a human being.

At first, I though to give an appropriate replay to your first
sentence quoted here. But, when I read the rest of it and your
signature, I changed my mind.
However, do you really believe we enjoyed ottoman occupation?

Tassos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Counting in Greek
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:06:23 GMT

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>Indeed, counting in Greek. Sigh, when is this country to grow up?

 Mr. Somar*, please keep your stupidity in other places.
 If you have problems with Greeks, visit a mental therapist.

>Erland Sommarskog 


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish
From: sinan@milton.u.washington.edu (Sinan Karasu)
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS (Makes one wonder who the OLD bully was)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 03:39:11 GMT

In article <4365.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
>
>  Well, everyone,
>
>  I'll be offline for a couple of days (new motherboard, second HD, tape drive
>  plus installing OS/2 2.0 on my machine).
>
>  Before I go, a temporary farewell:
>
>  Michael.
>
>
 An OS/2 2.0 ? Hmmm. Does anybody still use those Intel machines? 
It seems awfully archaic as I sit here in front of my SparcStation at home
(The one connected to the network, not the other one) and ponder.
Oh well. At least you are upgrading to OS/2  .Well don't despair, maybe
someday!!.
Sinan
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:02:04 GMT

lambri@ifi.unizh.ch (Dimitrios Lambrinos) writes:

>macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>> ..., since after all Cretan dialect is a Greek dialect, and
>> the great bulk of the vocabulary and almost all the grammar is
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> strictly Greek, ...
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>inta les more koumparo tha mas e kouzoulanis!!!
> ^^^          ^^^^^^^^         ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>diale tsia apolimanous sou more!! <---- not meant to offend anyone.
>^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Does this sound ***modern*** greek to you? 
>Do you recognise the most of the words in this sentence as ***modern*** greek? 
>Does the grammar seem ***greek*** to you?

I don't think that your examples change the initial argument of 
Mr. Macrakis. When one refers to the Greek language, I don't understand
only what is known as "modern Greek", but a rather general definition 
that includes all the developments of this language since Antiquity
which were not dominated by elements from other languages. According
to that, I cannot understand why the Cretan dialect cannot be considered
as Greek. The same reasoning applies to the Greek-Cypriot dialect; the
syntax of the latter seems sometimes peculiar but definitely the language
is Greek. As you write, the Cretan dialect has a lot of ancient Greek words 
which are not widely used today; despite the influences from the Venecians
don't you think that the language is Greek?

Instead of Stavros' suggestion to promote the local dialects, I'd suggest
teaching the development of the Greek language throughout the centuries.
Those who want to continue speaking local dialects certainly can do it, and
it's up to them; but on the other hand I find better to know the origins
of today's Greek which are almost unknown for us...

PS : From the writings of a Greek pupil:
"... and Leonidas replied, in Persian, `molwn labe'..."
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: lambri@ifi.unizh.ch (Dimitrios Lambrinos)
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11:50:35 GMT


In article <MACRAKIS.92Sep9182145@next4.osf.org>, macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
> I had said:
> 
>    >As you know, Yanni, Cretan and Ionian dialects are very close to
>    >standard Greek.  Vlach is not.
> 
> In article <1992Sep9.190837.24767@cs.wisc.edu> schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) replies:
> 
>    No, I don't buy this. There are probably much more words of vlach
>    origin in modern Greek than words of cretan origin.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here.  If you're saying that there's more
> borrowing from Vlach into standard Modern Greek than from Cretan
> dialect, maybe you're right.  However, I don't know what this
> demonstrates, since after all Cretan dialect is a Greek dialect, and
> the great bulk of the vocabulary and almost all the grammar is
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> strictly Greek, whereas Vlach, despite much common vocabulary with
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Greek, is a Romance language/dialect.

inta les more koumparo tha mas e kouzoulanis!!!
 ^^^          ^^^^^^^^         ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^

diale tsia apolimanous sou more!! <---- not meant to offend anyone.
^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^

Does this sound ***modern*** greek to you? 
Do you recognise the most of the words
	in this sentence as ***modern*** greek? 
Does the grammar seem ***greek*** to you?

I am from Hania, so I speak the Hania dialect. My wife's mother is
from Astrikas (a village 10 min drive from Kasteli, west of Hania).
When she (mother in law) start's talking I can understand the 50-60%
from what she is talking about. 
 The only thing that is to easy to understand is when she
is saying:
	
	manoliooooooo! gire more n'armexis tsie'eges kiai
					       ^^^^^

	gaire onoris'n fraxis ta oza.

In most of the cretan dialects you meet a lot of
ancient greek words that they are not in use anymore:

Aiga
ornitha
.......
sorry I forgot my Cretan, could any Cretan netter give me some more examples?

The accent has been influenced from the venecians:

Kai = Kiai
tous = tsia (ts = ch, english->ch-urch, Italian->ch-iao)


Dimitrios


********************************************************
H MAKEDONIA einai h KARDIA ths ELLADAS
MACEDONIA is the HEART of GREECE
********************************************************

An x-communist and now lefty, but not nationalist at all, 
simply: first Greek and then Cretan.


Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8587 soc.culture.turkish:9768
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Turkish sentiments toward others
Date: 7 Sep 92 22:01:22 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.




[Hakan] Let's come to the point MOST DISLIKED COUNTRIES. Well, Greece must be at the
[Hakan] the top. The second is Southern Cyprus for sure. Percentages of those 
[Hakan] countries may be slightly more. Armenia is of course the third one. :-) 
[Hakan] But I am not sure
                  
[Eduard]      Why, of course, Hakan!!  They weren't supposed to survive
[Edyard]      the Genocide, were they?
        
[Hakan]       Hey Eduard, welcome back. I remember three of your postings
[Hakan]       containing some Turkish curses like "AMC*K", "G*TVERAN", (3 months ago) 
[Hakan]       "S*KiM BASHI". Those Turkish curses were not appropriate
[Hakan]       for using in postings, but you used them, right?


      	 That's right, Hakan.  They were at least as appropriate as
      	 the blatantly racist statements made on this net by Mutlu
      	 and Cosar and tacitly supported by other net.Turks.  So, as they
      	 say in the Russian Army -- "Toughsky shitsky!"


[Hakan]       Let's come to the point. You showed your true face. 
[Hakan]       You don't want to discuss on the subject but instead 
[Hakan]       you want to fight without knowing anything. You have lost
[Hakan]       your credibility by using those nasty Turkish curses in your
[Hakan]       postings. So you cannot find anybody to discuss with you.



      	 The idea of discussing credibility with one of your ilk
      	 is ludicrous at best.


[Hakan]      You made me annoyed. let me increase the percentage 
[Hakan]       of Armenia in MOSTLY DISLIKED COUNTRIES IN TURKEY table from 90% 
[Hakan]       to 99% just as Micheal Polymenakos usually does. :-). See, 
[Hakan]       how I raised the percentage. How about that?  


      	 In the name of Armenia, I thank you.  Armenia should be proud
      	 to take first place on list of "MOSTLY [sic] DISLIKED
      	 COUNTRIES IN TURKEY."


[Hakan]        If you continue to write something silly and curses, I will raise  
[Hakan]       *your* percentage in tables "WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?" and
[Hakan]       "I GUESS SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THAT GUY".
       

      	 Go fuck yourself, effendi.

-- Edward Wiener
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Confusions...
Date: 14 Sep 92 12:11:06 GMT

After the simplifications (and the confusions) that have appeared in this
newsgroup regarding the history of Macedonia, it seems that a new series
of simplifications begin to emerge... 

In <7302@charon.cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:
>rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) writes:
> >                                                  However, comparing 
> > with the inscriptions that have been found in Roman Britain is totally 
> > irrelevant. The inscriptions in Macedonia refer to the tombstones 
> > (and not only) of the kings of an independent city-state, and the 
> > inscriptions in Britain refer to a period when the island was occupied... 
>Eh, do you want to carry all the tombstones from the Netherlands inscribed
>in Latin, dating from way back to about a hundred years ago?  Especially
>the Kings.

Mr. Winter, I think that you get me wrong. My point is exactly what it seems 
that you want to show: that we can *not* make comparisons. Quoting single
sentences from world history ignoring its full perspective, can lead to
wrong conclusions. And before the part of my article that you quote, 
there is a sentence that explains my whole idea:

... there is a lot of work on the history of ancient Macedonia and people 
who are interested in, can consult it...

Instead of "ancient Macedonia" you can place everything: "Incas", 
"Roman Britain", "Japan",  whatever. The initial point of my article 
was that archeologists and historians have written numerous volumes regarding 
world history and/or prehistory and there are some commonly accepted views
among them; this doesn't mean that there is not a variety of views or even
controversial versions of history. But quoting the latter in order
to justify or prove someting and ignoring the former, don't you think that it
is dangerous? And furthermore, this can lead to dangerous conclusions?

--r.

PS: Still confused... Why some Poussin (and not only) paintings present 
tombstones with the inscription motto "Et in Arcadia ego"?
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: INDEPENDENT SLAVO-MAC
Date: 12 Sep 92 10:36:00 GMT
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis


>Stavros Macrakis
>By philological evidence, Greek Vlach dialects are closely related to
>certain Rumanian dialects.  Thus it seems unlikely that they evolved
>independently since Roman times.  You asserted that Greek Vlach and
>Rumanian are as distantly related as French and Italian; this
>contradicts everything I've read on Romance philology (mostly by
>Western European and North American scholars, not Romanians!).

 I'll have to agree with Stavros on this. Actually Greece has recognized
the Romanian-Vlach(Wellachian) relationship in 1913, when Romania
entered the second Balkan war as an Ally to Greece and Serbia against
Bulgaria. The Romanian gvmt at that time figured that ethnic Vlachs
would be better of under Greek rule than under Bulgarian rule, and they
were probably right. During the cold war, I imagine the connections
between Vlachs and Romania became more weak (My experiance generally is
that Vlachs are conservative/anti-communist).

Michael.
                                                        
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: lichtenw@guug.de (Klaus Lichtenwalder)
Subject: HELP: Need ZIP-Code of cretan town
Summary: Need Zipcode of Makris Gialos
Keywords: Crete Zipcode Makris Gialos
Organization: Technical University of Munich, Germany
Distribution: greece
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:32:40 GMT

Hi Everybody,

i need the zipcode of a cretan town called 'Makris Gialos' (I hope i 
remember the transcription right). This town is located in the south-east
of Crete, between Ierapetra and Sitia, near the sea. (There also is a
gigantic building of a scandinavian hotel 'SunWing').

Please reply via e-mail, i don't read this group and the information is
most probably not of general interrest :-)

Klaus
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Klaus Lichtenwalder, Dipl. Inf.                 Tel: +49-89-986929
Datapat GmbH                                    FAX: +49-89-988014
Mauerkircherstr. 31                             email: lichtenw@guug.de
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Taramasalata recipe?
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 20:06:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 


And now for a change from Mutlus and polemics:

The best Taramasalata I ever had was at the White Tower restaurant in
London. It was made from fresh smoked cod's roe, readily available in
London but impossible to find in the U.S. (at least so far--I'm in
Los Angeles).

I've tried to make it here without success. The closest I can come is
the Krinos or other Tarama that comes in jars in Greek food stores,
and following various recipes the result is always horribly salty. The
prepared Taramasalata is just as bad, and I've not yet found a Greek
restaurant that can make it to compare with the White Tower's.

Anybody have any recipes or suggestions?

Thanks;
David
From: hk0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Harry Karatassos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Visiting Greece
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:15:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.ceguy1G00iUy846540
	<jyc.716406110@Leland>
Organization: Freshman, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I intend to visit Greece soon and was wondering as to what sites I
should visit.  I am interested in the 1821 revolution and the years
before that during the Turkish rule.  I would like to see sites that
convey the living conditions of people back then especially church and
monastaries.  Does anyone have any suggestion as to where I should go?

Thanks in advance,

Harry Karatassos