HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank - Swilling)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.audio
Subject: Re: Can't backup Miracle Disks
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 19:47:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

>
>This may be a stupid question but I cannot make backup copies of
>the disks that came with my Miracle Keyboard. They are not copy protected
>according to Software Toolworks. When I try to back them up using Workbench
>I get "error:212". Using the diskcopy command from the CLI
>does not work either. Any suggestions ??
>
>G.L. Weideman

They *aren't* copy-protected, and you shouldn't be having any trouble
making copies.  AmigaDos Error Code 212 is "Object not of required type",
which is usually a sign that you're not using the command correctly.

I have no idea how experienced you are, so let me ask: are you inserting
a freshly-formatted disk into df1:, your original Miracle disk into df0:,
and either dragging your Miracle disk icon over onto the df1: disk icon
(WorkBench) or from the CLI typing "diskcopy df0: to df1:"?

If you *are* doing this and are still having problems, your Miracle disk
must be corrupt.

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.misc:12998 comp.os.ms-windows.misc:2283
From: mwm@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us (Mike Meyer)
Subject: Re: How's this for a solution
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.misc
Distribution: world
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.misc
X-NewsSoftware: Amiga Yarn 3.4, 1992/08/12 15:49:52
Keywords: 
Summary: 
Date: 23 Aug 92 16:45:56 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica

In <1992Aug23.142430.1@vax1.umkc.edu>, edowdy@vax1.umkc.edu wrote:
> 486dx-33, I love them both. But, what makes the Amiga owners "proud, arrogant"
> is the *Machine*.

Speak for yourself.

> software it self. In other words it is not the software itself that makes the
> amiga what it is, it is the machine. 

Horse pucky. The same software on a different machine would still have
all the Amiga attributes I consider important. The same machine
running MS-DOS would be an MS-DOS machine, not an Amiga.

> 	Do not make the mistake of reifying the software, for without the
> machine the software could not operate.

Without the software, the machine is just so much educated sand, and
doesn't even make a good paperweight.

> do on an IBM.  The software does not make the machine, the machine "makes" the
> software.

The machine ties the software down to a specific level of hardware.
To use better hardware, it takes different software. Or hadn't you
noticed people screaming for better graphics than are currently
available? When the software gets freed from the hardware, the Amiga
will be _better_. It will also be easier to make the Amiga system
software run on an Intel box.

> 	Yes, let's face it, AmigaDos could not be ported to an Intel based
> machine, because the machine could not handle code that the chips in the Amiga
> work with.

Considering that AmigaDOS started life on PDP-11s that were much
slower and had nastier limits than the current Intel chips, this
statement is obviously false.

When the software catches up to the rest of the world, and we have RTG
or DIG (which will allow the _hardware_ to catch up to the rest of the
world), then porting the graphics software should be straightforward.

> The hardware is better in the Amiga (though it has many drawbacks),
> and windows is, compared to the Amiga, almost entirely "generated" by software
> code, to allow it to multitask. Where as the inherent "insides" of the Amiga
> naturally allow this and encourage it. It's about time this type of 
> OS came to the IBM.	

This type of OS has been available for the IBM since before there was
an Amiga. They (like the Amiga) could never overcome the inertia of
the big blue approved OS.

	<mike
From: white@disco-sun3.dfki.uni-sb.de (Andrew P. White)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: OLD Amiga help.
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:45:12 GMT
Reply-To: white@dfki.uni-sb.de
Distribution: comp
Organization: DFKI Saarbruecken GmbH, D-W 6600 Saarbruecken


Hi,
   I have just recieved an offer of an Amiga 500 from a friend who was about to
chuck it out. The problem(?) is that it is OLD, it was the first Amiga I ever
saw and I reckon it must be 5/6 years old (For example he got Starglider 1 and
Karate Kid 2 with the package).
        What I want to know is , how compatibile will it be with modern Amigas
i.e Will modern software work on it / How well will they work? I know very
little about hardware but can someone give me a basic outline of what an Amiga
500 of this age has / doesn't have?

        Thanks in advance,
                Andrew.

  ___________________________________________________________________________
 /---------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Andrew White,Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland		              |
|              DFKI Saarbruecken GmbH, D-W 6600 Saarbruecken, Germany         |
| Email : white@dfki.uni-sb.de    OR      apwhite@unix1.tcd.ie                |
|                                                                             |
| ... Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer,       |
|  my dog, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental     |
 \___________________________________________________________________________/
From: grimjack@milton.u.washington.edu (Leslie Basel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Null-modem-cable : help needed
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:52:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In a previous article, rensing@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Stefan Rensing) says:
>>Does anybody know how to make a correct null-modem-cable ?
>>
>>I tried connecting GND-GND, SHIELD-SHIELD and cross-connecting
>>TXD-RXD but it doesn't work.
>>           Stefan.
>Your cable sounds fine to me.  If you want to check, the connections necessary are:
>pin 7 to pin 7
>pin 2 to pin 3
>pin 3 to pin 2
>
>Dave.
>-- 
I always connect pin 20 to pin 20 also (but then I am a VAXman)

Rodger Coghlan
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: dingebre@imp.sim.es.com (David Ingebretsen)
Subject: Re: Sour grapes (was Re: @$#^@$%# 2.04!)
Reply-To: dingebre@imp.sim.es.com (David Ingebretsen)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:12:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.183043.7034@nmsu.edu>, pfeiffer@nmsu.edu (Joe Pfeiffer) writes:
> In article <DGILBERT.92Aug5095638@aeshq.uucp> dgilbert@aeshq.uucp (David Gilbert) writes:
> 
> 
> 	   For one, I don't really believe the availability arguement.  If
>    you want it, order it.  I was the first one to purchace the 2.04
>    upgrade from my dealer, but he had 4 more kits in stock.  There was

stuff deleted ...

>    to be 1/4 the size of the 2.04 AmigaOS manual.
> 
> I've been quoted a 6 wk delivery time by my dealer, at $90.
> 
> -Joe.

I called a mail order house* and purchased a 2.04 upgrade kit for a 2000 and had
it in three days.

-- 
	David

	Disclaimer: The content of this message in no way reflects the
	            opinions of my employer, nor are my actions
		    encouraged, supported, or acknowledged by my
		    employer.

* The mail order house was The Grapevine Group. In light of recent traffic
   about bad experiences with them I neither endorse or recommend them. I
   personally had very good luck with them and would buy from them again,
   however.
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.comm,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Citadel authors
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:27:21 GMT
Organization: University of Washington


THANK YOU!!!
From: barrett@snoopy.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: c.s.a.reviews? (was Re: AWK Found!  ff406.)
Date: 22 Aug 92 01:47:12 GMT
Reply-To: barrett@snoopy.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Organization: BLAZEMONGER INCORPORATED

In article <1992Aug21.145722.58315@cc.usu.edu> slbfn@cc.usu.edu writes:
>If you look really closely, you might just see that there is no longer
>a comp.sys.amiga.review newsgroup.

	Not true.  However, you misspelled it:  it's comp.sys.amiga.REVIEWS,
not "review".

	The newsgroup exists on our machine.  (Although nothing has been
posted for a long time.)

                                                        Dan

 //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Dept of Computer Science, Lederle Graduate Research Center |
| University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA  01003  --  barrett@cs.umass.edu |
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
From: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Unanswered Questions
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:18:33 GMT
Reply-To: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Organization: Flying Cat Software

In article <1992Aug11.165724.15932@sagpd1> monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) writes:
>In article <34105@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
>>
>>
>>Also, there is a tendency (at least for me) to not answer
>>questions I see that I think will either be easily answered
>>by other people or by looking it up in the Amazing Computing Guide to
>>the Amiga.
>>
>
>    Well maybe this is why I never received any help on how to get a 
>    Bernoulli drive working with my A2091. Everyone assumes someone else
>    has the answers.

Could be;  on the other hand, the reason personally I probably didn't respond
to your question is that I've never tried to connect a Bernoulli to anything.

>
>    I still want to know why I can not boot my A2000HD with out a cartridge
>    in the Iomega. 

Some removable drives don't respond to SCSI commands (like INQUIRY) 
unless they have their cart. installed.  scsi.device probably needs
a timeout there;  on the other hand, once scsi.device has scanned past
that device there's no going back without rebooting.

>The quantum is ignored! Also after reading the manual I
>    still want to know the boot order of scsi devices.

scsi.device scans from scsi units 0 to 6.  The system boots from
the highest priority device/partition of those devices than answer
the scan, and that are bootable.

The closest I've come to your setup is a Syquest.  It required a
cart. inserted before the system would boot, but otherwise let me use
the system with no problems.

>    Monty Saine

		andy
-- 
andy finkel		{uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy

"A new release is where old bad assumptions are replaced by new
 bad assumptions."

Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: Frederick.Theilig@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Frederick Theilig)
Subject: Re: LOOK, CBM IS WORKING HARD...
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 03:01:53 GMT

In article <jbickers.0cz3@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>Quoted from <1992Aug5.233823.8250@tronsbox.xei.com> by bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh):
>
>> Matt Dillon has done wonders, and his software can compete easily with
>> the state-of-the-Amiga-art commercial products, but it can't hope to
>> compete with the commercial stuff MS-DOS companies produce.  Borland
>> and MicroSoft's C/C++ products are worlds away from what Matt is able
>
>    How come DICE is equivalent to SAS C, but less than Microsoft C,
>    when SAS C itself is superior to Microsoft C?
>
     I've never used SAS C, but I have Microsoft C 6.0 and DICE. 
 Compiler against compiler, I'll pick DICE against MS-C.  Chip
 differences aside, DICE is faster on a 68010 than MS-C is on a 12 Mhz
 286 and produces smaller, faster code.  On a fairly simple program,
 DICE produced a 8k executable, while MS-C (with all the optimzation
 options) gave me code in the 14 to 16k range.

     The only real advantage that MS-C has that I can see is the
 CodeView source level debugger, which won't work on the 640k machine
 I was using at the time.  It also comes with the Programmer's
 workbench, but I won't hold that against Microsoft.

     Borland's products come with a snazzy environment and packageing,
 I'm silly.  I perfer AutoDocs and dme.

>*** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG.        jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***

     F. Michael Theilig  -  RPG117@URIACC.URI.EDU

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: eeb@pro-freedom.cts.com (Ed Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: CBM layoffs
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:27:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: pro-free.1992Aug17.202741.863
Organization: ProLine [pro-freedom] AppleVan (Apple UG of Vancouver, WA)


 > It seems that every time a project is completed, CBM dumps most of the
 > technical people involved in the project... this is a very
 > short-sighted policy, but it is NOT new.


How very true!  In fact, this was first practiced in earnest in ancient
Egypt.  Soon as the pyramid was finished, all the High Lords wanted to do
was KILL THE SLAVES.  Different millenium, same bulldirt.  :-/


 > He was reported to have said publicly that "planning ahead is stupid.

Planning ahead by an *incompetent* IS stupid.  So is planning and not
planning as well.


 > You are just wasting bandwidth and effort.

Ok, so what are you doing regarding bandwidth, effort, etc?



*======================================================================*
|Edward E. Brown II               | Internet: eeb@pro-freedom.cts.com  |
|Chemist On A Mission From GOD!   | UUCP:     clark.edu!pro-freedom!eeb|
|Vancouver, WA, USA, N.Amer, Earth| FidoNet:  1:105/135                |
|---------------------------------|---//-------------------------------|
|"Back off man, I'm a scientist!" | \X/ A3000 - UNIX/MSDOS/MacDOS/ADOS |
*======================================================================*
From: hemmer@hemmer.adsp.sub.org (Franz Hemmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: CED III
Date: 18 Aug 92 08:40:11 GMT
Reply-To: cbmehq!cbmden!hemmer@cbmvax.commodore.com (Franz Hemmer)
Organization: InterActivsion
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <Bt30wF.74v@gfxbase.in-berlin.de> ebers@gfxbase.in-berlin.de (Thorsten Ebers) writes:

>  will there be in a near future a upgrade to CED III available ?

I'm also very interested in any information about this.

> Thorsten Ebers     email: ebers@gfxbase.in-berlin.de,ebers@aball.in-berlin.de

-- 
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
|         _   UseNet: (uunet|rutgers|pyramid)!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmden!hemmer |
|         \\ _                         CBMNET: hemmer@hemmer.adsp.sub.org |
| InterActi\X/ision - The name of precision                               |
| Best regards                         >> Carpe Diem! - Seize the day! << |
| Franz Hemmer - Software Developer located in Silkeborg, Denmark, Europe |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: eeb@pro-freedom.cts.com (Ed Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: No Figs in the Apple Newton
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:45:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: pro-free.1992Aug22.104555.1078
Organization: ProLine [pro-freedom] AppleVan (Apple UG of Vancouver, WA)


 > This years offender: Newton. Those in the industry may remember it
 > as the moniker of an upcoming handheld personal computer from Apple,
 > but the rest of the world knows it as a fig cookie made by Nabisco Foods
 > Group. Nabisco has held the "Newton" trademark for 101 years... and has
 > been known to be very protective of its rights.


Good on 'em!  What goes around, comes around.  Apple may well receive yet
another serving of just desserts on this one.  :-)



*======================================================================*
|Edward E. Brown II               | Internet: eeb@pro-freedom.cts.com  |
|Chemist On A Mission From GOD!   | UUCP:     clark.edu!pro-freedom!eeb|
|Vancouver, WA, USA, N.Amer, Earth| FidoNet:  1:105/135                |
|---------------------------------|---//-------------------------------|
|"Back off man, I'm a scientist!" | \X/ A3000 - UNIX/MSDOS/MacDOS/ADOS |
*======================================================================*
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Subject: Re: No Figs in the Apple Newton 
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:09:02 GMT

mwm@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us (Mike Meyer) writes:
: Can you at least get your history right? Apple _licensed_ the name
: from the Beatles. The original license stipulated that they not get
: get into the music business under that name. They did. Apple Records
: called them on it. Apple Computer claimed what they were doing was
: covered by original license. AR won, AC lost. 
: 
: Notice that Apple also licensed the name MacIntosh from a manufacturer
: of high-end stereo gear, though I believe they eventually bought that
: name.

: They licensed _that_, as well. Xerox claimed they violated that
: license, and lost.

: Nah - I'm actually surprised that Apple didn't license the name. Maybe
: they didn't think of it. Nabisco probably can't get anything out of
: them if the name changes before it hits the street.

Did I forget a smiley?  That was rather unnecessary, since it was only
100x more obvious that it was simply a joke...

But it was nice of you to set history straight.  :)

Greg

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
(: "...and here's Clinton giving the correct spelling of bong-resin..."  :)
(:	gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu			Gregory R. Block         :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: monty@sagpd1 ()
Subject: Re: Unanswered Questions
Reply-To: monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine)
Organization: Scientific Atlanta, Government Products Div, San Diego, CA
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:17:24 GMT

In article <34238@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
>Some removable drives don't respond to SCSI commands (like INQUIRY) 
>unless they have their cart. installed.  scsi.device probably needs
>a timeout there;  on the other hand, once scsi.device has scanned past
>that device there's no going back without rebooting.
>
>>The quantum is ignored! Also after reading the manual I
>>    still want to know the boot order of scsi devices.
>
>scsi.device scans from scsi units 0 to 6.  The system boots from
>the highest priority device/partition of those devices than answer
>the scan, and that are bootable.
>
>The closest I've come to your setup is a Syquest.  It required a
>cart. inserted before the system would boot, but otherwise let me use
>the system with no problems.
>

    Is it correct to say that C= does not support removable media drives 
then? It would appear that some thought should be put in HDToolBox so that
Bernoulli, Syquest, Floptical, tape drives...etc. will work without knowledge
that is not in the manual. Is there a flag in the ridged disk block that 
can be used to force it to boot from a particular ID/Partition or to ignore
a particular device if it is not ready? I know for a fact that the Bernoulli
has a status of the cartridge presence available and I suspect most of the
other removable media devices do also. The advantage of being able to boot
with out a cartridge is one of the things I like about removable media 
(keeps the kids from trashing the good stuff) :)

    There is another related question about HDToolBox that was never answered:
Why does it take about two miniutes for HDToolBox to recognise a Bernoulli?
What does it do to a hard drive? The quantum takes only a couple of seconds.

Monty Saine

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Subject: csh 5.19 and LS 4.5 ljr
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 06:19:41 GMT


I am having a slight difficulty here.  In shell-startup I have

	;file exe
	set ls_highlight-5.on ""
	set ls_highlight-5.off *
	;dir
	set ls_highlight2.on  ""
	set ls_highlight2.off /

which mostly works.  Unfortunately, if I use Ls, the curser color is lost. (set
to background)  Works fine in the C= shell, but not with CSH.  (I am using %c
in my csh prompt)

Any help appreciated,

Ken
From: jbono@tension.UUCP (John Bono)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: AA Chip set
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:15:24 EST
Organization: High Tension BBS

How did they screw A1000 owners?  By giving them a $1k discount on the A2000
when it was introduced so they wouldn't be out in the cold?  By giving them
another $1k discount on an A3000 just by showing up with the first page from
the manual when the 3000 was introduced?  By testing 2.04 on an A1000 even
though there was no direct facility for it to run on it?  If you think you are
out in the cold regarding your purchase of a system, imagine the poor souls who
bought a PC/AT one or two days before the PS/2 was introduced, and couldn't
trade in to save his life, and took a bath as a result.  Or, for that matter,
the guy who bought a Mac 128 and couldn't add ram, add another disk drive, or
even add color!
 
John
From: Harv@cup.portal.com (Harv R Laser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: World of CBM, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 20:24:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa

I found this on a local BBS or FidoNet or somewhere.. can't remember.
Can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this either. If anyone involved
with WOC sees this and cares to make corrections, please do.
----
Seminars for World of Commodore, Pasadena Ca.
 
Friday, Sept 11, 1992 10 am - 5 pm
 
10:15 AM  *Great Valley Products in Multimedia Featuring the IMPACTVISON 24
11:15 AM  *Great Valley Products Presents Communication on the Amiga
12:30 PM  *Gold Disk Demonstrates Desktop Publishing
 1:00 PM  *Desktop Video
 1:45 PM  *AmigaVision 3.0
 2:30 PM  *Keynote Address by Commodore
 3:30 PM  *AmigaDos 2.1
 3:45 PM  *Commodore New Product Overview
 
 
Saturday, Sept 12, 1992 10 am - 5 pm
 
10:15 AM  *Animation and Compositing Techniques on the Amiga
10:30 AM  *Desktop Video
11:30 AM  *Great Valley Products Presents Communication on the Amiga
12:15 PM  *Centaur Demonstrates OpalVision
12:30 PM  *Sunrize Presents Digital Audio for Video
 1:15 PM  *Keynote Address by Commodore
 2:00 PM  *Gold Disk Demostrates Showmaker and Video Director
 2:30 PM  *Scala-Prepare Powerhouse Multimedia Presentations
 3:00 PM  *Amigavision 3.0
 3:45 PM  *Commodore New Product Overview
 4:00 PM  *AmigaDos 2.1
 
 
Sunday, Sept 13, 1992 Noon - 5 pm
 
12:15 PM  *Animation and Compositing Techniques on the Amiga
12:30 PM  *Desktop Video
 1:15 PM  *Sunrize Presents Digital Audio for Video
 2:00 PM  *Keynote Address by Commodore
 2:45 PM  *Centaur Demonstrates OpalVision
 3:00 PM  *Scala-Prepare Powerhouse Multimedia Presentations
 4:00 PM  *Commodore New Product Overview
 
Current Exhibitors for World of Commodore
=========================================
 
Amazing Computing
Ambitious Technologies
Amiga News
Amiga Video Graphics Guild
ASDG
Avid Publications
Black Belt
Centaur Software
Central Coast Software
Commodore Business Machines
Computer System Associates
Creative Computers
Digital Creations
Digital Micronics
Euphonics
Gold Disk
Great Valley Products
ICD
IDG Communications
INOVAtronics
L.A. Video Toaster Group
Memory World
Merit Software
Micro Pace Inc.
Migraph Inc.
New Horizons Software
Nucleus Electronics
Opal Tech
Oxxi, Inc.
Pacific Digital
Premier Software
Pride Incorporated
SAS Institute
Scala Inc.
Soft Logik
Sunrize Industries
Video Graphics Toast & Coffee
Virtual Reality
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc