HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Re: Organically grown foods (was Re: What's the Best Juicer)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 00:26:39 GMT

Drew Corrigan writes:

>It (organically grown food) sure tastes better in my book!
[...]

Does it ever!  I was frankly surprised how I got used to those tastless
ersatz things from our local supermarket called "oranges".  I didn't 
realize before I tried organic oranges, what a tangy strong "orange" 
flavour oranges can actually have when properly grown in rich soil.

Of course, the more important consideration, as you rightly point
out, is not just flavour or whether or not organic food is more nutritious,
but whether it is less harmful to the environment and biodiversity.
This by itself is reason enough to buy organic produce, if it is
available.  What's a few pennies more to support a good practice.


>This being said, I still think the bulk of people's health problems come
>from a bad diet laden with fats and refined foods and light on fibre
>and complex carbohydrates.

I completely argee.  It is odd how the priorities of health
care get skewed.  The interest, for example, in buying "organic beef"
seems to me to be misplaced, unless one also reduces dietary fat and
increases eating whole grains, vegetables and fruits.  Much simplier
to find good veggy replacements for those meats than worry about
buying meat with less pesticides which does nothing to address the
fat/cholesterol problem.  

I guess one could pay more and buy "lean" meat, but
a well-controlled experimental study by Kestin et al. (see
Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 1989, 50:280-7) concluded that even "lean
meat for plant protein in a fat-modified diet did not negate the 
overall cardiovascular-risk lowering of the lactoovovegetarian diet".
And we are here talking about a very fatty lactoovegetarian diet, one
which had virtually the same amount of saturated fat as those on a lean
meat diet!  So, it is not just reducing overall fat consumption that
is important, but also the kinds of fats, even beyond the general 
distinction of saturated/unsaturated, is important.  Plant produced
fats generally being better.  :-)

					Happy Veggy Holiday Drew,

						ted
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: anand@Cadence.COM (Anand Bemra)
Subject: Re: Touring a slaughterhouse
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: us
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:46:14 GMT

bstrat@server.objy.com (Bill Stratford) writes:

>I'm currently an omnivore and enjoy meat. I think it
>would be useful, however, for me to get in touch with the transition
>from "living creature" to "shrink-wrapped tasty food".  

>It seems important (minimally) to take responsibility for the 
>animal's death before one consumes it, if not killing the animal
>oneself. I'm hoping a slaugterhouse tour will at least make 
>me more sensitive to the "killing the animal" part of the process.

>So,

>    - Will slaughterhouses in the US let non-employees inside?

>    - Has anyone had experience touring slaughterhouses in the US?

>    - Does anyone know of slaughterhouses in the SF Bay area  (or
>	  lower Michigan) that are open to the public?


Bill,
	I found this in my files. Though it does not answer your
	questions, it does shed some light on the slaughter house.


From misc.activism.progressive Fri Aug  9 09:47:49 1991
From: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel) Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive Subject: Revisiting the Jungle Message-ID: <1991Aug8.191013.25203@pencil.cs.missouri.edu>
Date: 7 Aug 91 22:59:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Organization: PACH

Reprinted from Multinational Monitor, Vol. 12, No. 4, April 
1991, p. 4.

Copyright 1991 Essential Information, Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction of all or part of MM for non-commercial use is allowed
with proper credit to the Monitor.
-------------
REVISITING THE JUNGLE
by Jim Sugarman

A new streamlined beef-inspection system at slaughterhouses is
allowing diseased meat onto the market at an alarming pace, according
to whistleblowing meat inspectors. They condemn a United States
Department of Agriculture (USDA) plan to rely on beef-company
employees to perform the majority of inspections and restrict
government inspectors to spot checks at predetermined points on
the processing line. A group of 21 federal meat inspectors who
oversee plants using the system state, "in good conscience we no
longer can say that we know USDA-approved beef is wholesome." In
an open letter sent to Congress in March, the inspectors write,
"based on the filth and disease we see getting through every day
... the program isn't working."

A similar streamlined process was introduced in 1984 for chicken,
leading to greatly increased rates of salmonella contamination,
reports Tom Devine of the Government Accountability Project, a
watchdog group working with the inspectors.

The inspectors believe that USDA management advocates both the
chicken and beef streamlined systems so that slaughterhouses may
increase line speeds. A 1988 USDA news release that the new system
would increase slaughterhouse productivity by 40 percent.

In their letter to Congress, the federal inspectors cite examples
of meat contamination which they previously would have stopped but
now must let pass, including "an eight fold increase in head
contamination, whose meat goes into products like ground beef ... ; 
diseases like measles [and] tapeworms; [and] carcasses which fall
on the floors ... which have blood, cattle feces, urine, ingesta,
hair, pus from abscesses, grease, dirt, spit and tobacco [on them]."
-------------
Multinational Monitor [ISSN 0197-4637] is published monthly by
Essential Information, Inc., P.O. Box 19405, Washington, DC 20036.
Telephone: (202) 387-8030.

--
Screw PBS & NPR news. Tired of news "sanitized for your protection?". Try:
misc.activism.progressive, "Lies Of Our [NY]Times", "Z" magazine (Boston).
KPFA 94.1 FM (Bay Area), 90.7 (L.A.), 90.1 (Houston, TX), 89.3 (Washington, DC)
These are my opinions, not my employer's. 
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Subject: Re: Animal Experiments
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Madison, Chemical Engineering
Date: 16 Dec 92 16:34:23 CST
Followup-To: rec.food.veg
	<mhulsey-021292100759@fatrat.fcs.uga.edu>
	<1992Dec3.040808.8141@informix.com>
	<mhulsey-031292151348@fatrat.fcs.uga.edu>
	<tara.724426611@starburst.umd.edu>
	<mhulsey-161292090030@fatrat.fcs.uga.edu>
	<1992Dec16.160843.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>
In-reply-to: tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com's message of Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:08:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.160843.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:

   I have to remind you that t.p.a was created by *THIS* newsgroup 
   to stop all that nonsense over here and keep more to the food end.
   This was done since the newsgroup was overrun with the kind of
   flame wars that you've started with those kind of posts.  

Since I issued the original call for votes, I'd like to correct you.
t.p.a was created because many groups were being overwhelmed by AR
debates.  For example, many folks stopped reading rec.pets.cats
because of a lingering hunting debate.  Similar flamewars were
emerging in alt.activism and rec.backcountry.

Another reason was rec.hunting.  It was moderated to keep the AR
flamewar someplace else.  However, without t.p.a, there was no
appropriate "someplace else".

I personally have noticed little change in rec.food.veg since t.p.a
was created.

tim
--
    ...  Then they came for me,
	   and by that time there was no one
	     left to speak up for me. (Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945)

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: georgec@eng.umd.edu (George B. Clark)
Subject: Re: Oganic Foods "Non-essential"???
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:25:07 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland

In article <altar.724532842@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:

>I would imagine that a lot of things are non-essential, like be 
>the better taste of organic produce, especially fruits, over that 
>of non-organically grown foods.

This contradicts the reason produce is fertilized and pest treated.
Fertilizers and pesticides enhance the quality and yield of produce,
yet you suggest organic produce has some superior quality. Price is
certainly not one of them. Besides, I like that tart chemical taste.



>Also non-essential would be the possibly greater nutritional
>value of truly organically grown foods which one can always make
>up for by eating a greater quantity of foods with a poorer
>nutritional value.

What? I can't believe you read this somewhere. You must have made
it up. What even makes you think organic produce is more nutritional?



>Now, with respect to the potential health risk of pesticides, I
>agree that pesticides are NOT as big a problem as the public
>imagination would seem to think them to be, but this is not to
>say that there is no problems whatsoever.

You're way out on a limb. There's no data to support your concerns.

The FDA's annual pesticide residue study was just released.
66.8% of more than 18,000 tested fruits and vegetables had no pesticide
residues at all. 31.6% had residues below allowable federal limits. Only
1.5% contained measurable levels.

It concludes dietary intake of pesticides for all population groups
are well below EPA and international standards.



>In sum, organic produce could well be deem "non-essential", but
>personally I enjoy my food and my health far too much to skimp on
>quality in this domain.

Being grown organic in no way implies quality, but it does imply
expensive.

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar)
Subject: Bisque Classic or Bisque New??
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 06:15:32 GMT


As you may know, Mollie Katzen in 1977 authored what was called
the MOOSEWOOD COOKBOOK, which was one of the first cookbooks to
introduce vegetarian natural foods to the mainstream consumers.
Over the past 15 years the book as sold some 1.5 million copies.
That first edition was designed to be "fatty" so as to appeal to
many of the non-vegetarian patrons of the Moosewood Restaurant in
Ithaca, New York, where the recipes were first created.

But times have indeed changed over the past 15 years.  As Mollie
Katzen observes, "You no longer have to win people over with eggs
and cheese" because "vegetarian is mainstream".  That is maybe a
little overoptimistic but the old cookbook was critiqued for
recipes that are too fatty.  .

Now, the NEW EXPANDED EDITION MOOSEWOOD COOKBOOK has revamped the
recipes so that they are not so dependent on high-fat ingredients
such as butter and creme.  The fat has been markedly trimmed,
dependency on dairy products reduced and the seasonings
"intensified".  For example, take at a look at the difference in
recipes (see below) between the old "Mushroom Bisque" and the new
"Mushroom Bisque".

The pop. magazine "EastWest Natural health" asked a group of
longtime natural foods consumers plus some people with a more
mainstream taste preference, were all asked to try out both
Mushroom Bisques.

"Coke or Bisque Classic for me!"
     People with conventional tastes preferred the old Mushroom
     Bisque, reporting that it had "more mushroom flavour" with
     "better color and texture" and that its taste was "what a
     bisque should be like".

"Coke or Bisque New for me!"
     Interestingly, experienced natural foods users like the
     newer version better saying that it "was more flavorful" and
     "lighter" and that they "liked the spicier taste".

Some like it heavy, some like it light,
and some say to preference,
"follow nutrition and take that turn to the light!"

                                             ted


INGREDIENTS FOR:

OLD "MUSHROOM BISQUE"         NEW "MUSHROOM BISQUE

3/2 Lbs fresh mushrooms       SAME
6 TBS butter                  3/2 TBS butter or margarine
1 stalk celery                SAME
3 fist-sized potatoes         2 fist-sized potatoes
3/2 cups chopped onion        2 cups chopped onion
3/2 cups stock or water       SAME
approx. 2 tsp salt            3/2 to 2 tsp salt
1/4 tsp thyme                 SAME
3 cups milk, scalded          1 cup milk (can be low fat)
1/2 pint heavy creme          NONE
1-3 TBS dry sherry            3 TBS dry sherry
1-2 TBS tamari                2 tsp soy sauce
fresh black pepper            SAME
freshly chopped chives        1-2 small cloves garlic
   or scallions               croutons
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Friday, 11 Dec 1992 13:10:39 EST
From: Judy Gerber <SPKBB@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Nature's Burger
 <92345.091229KMICHEL@MIAMIU.BITNET>

I've tried Harvest burger, and I agree. My favorite is still the original
flavor. I've turned so many people on to it, veg and non-veg alike, that
I should buy stock in the company!  I thought the price was pretty
reasonable--each pack costs $1.89 (plus shipping). Has anyone tried the
curry flavor?
From: liana@nexus.yorku.ca (Liana Simons)
Subject: Re: Animal Experiments
Organization: York University, CS Dept. Toronto
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:43:25 GMT

Hi,

	Just a little background info, I've done 3 years biology, 3 years 
comp sci and I'm now doing another degree in psychology.  As such I've done
my share of animal research and I've discussed and looked into ulternative
forms of experimentation.  This includes computer simulation. 
	Many of the things we know about how our mind and body works is
gathered right or wrongly from animal experimentation.  Much of the 
work done on vision and other aspects of the mind can not be performend on
humans, this does not mean that it should be done on animals for any old
reason.  Now adays much of the experimentation that used to be done in the
lab for students is now seen through old films and videos, the thought is
nolonger to learn through doing but to watch old experiments is just as 
good.  If one wants to do this type of work one must have some very very
good reasons.  Nine years ago we did animal experiments, lots of them and
many of the animals would be sacrificed, students learned through doing and
this is no longer the case.
	I do not believe in animal experimentation for the sake of animal
experimentation especially in situations where there are other ways
around it, but I do know that some of the work could not be done on anything
but animals, I wish it where otherwise but it is not.  One recent experiment
that I know of is using modified shoulder muscle (I think :)) to help take down 
sorry to help the heart beat when it nolonger can.  I honestly can't say
that this type of research should stop, it is successful...all you have to
do is look at a small child or any person who may die without this type
of research to lead to new treatment to think twice.  I do believe that
much of the animal research is unnecessary and I do have trouble with it
myself (I especially hate cat research) but I can still see its needs.
	Some things are so contradictory....ugg here I go and keep 
rambling.....

confused, often 

Liana

 


Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: c188-am@po.berkeley.edu (Leor Jacobi)
Subject: Re: Vegetarians or not vegetarians?
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:44:44 GMT

ldh@svl.cdc.com (Lawrence D. Hare) writes:


>am a vegan vegetarian interested in exchanging and learning ideas from
>other vegetarians. 

>I am surprised that very few people here bother to say whether they are
>vegetarian or not when criticizing. I find it puzzling for example, as I
>do not have a great deal of free time, why a couple of recurrent writers
>(Steve Dyer and Rich Young) post so much. They never say it, but they
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and don't forget avi@seal.

>certainly do not sound like dedicated vegetarians. Are they dev
>a life study of vegetarianism without reaping the benefits? Or simply
>have lots of free time while chewing on dead animals? I am using these
>two as an example because they are so often found in here. 

>Many thanks for the courtesy of those who bother to be clear when they
>post controversial material, replies and rebuttals.

>By the way: The inhumane "manufacturing" of factory animals for human
>consumption kills a lot more plants than we would kill if we all became
>vegetarians. So if we care for plants, let's stop eating animals.
>Animal eaters who think that such an attitude is hypocritical can
>restrain from eating both animals and plants to set a good example if
>they wish.

Yes!
This paragraph renders the ENTIRE discussion about plant "intelligence"
and "consciousness" completely IRRELEVANT.
What avi@seal, Rich Young, et.al. are doing is attacking those of us who are
doing the most considerate thing for animals AND plants - maintaining a 
vegetarian diet, on the grounds that WE are hypocritical.  THEY are being
hypocritical in attacking us.  I can only attribute their misguided posts 
as fruitless (pun intended) attempts to RATIONALIZE their meat-consumption
as being "logical".  They have steered argument into areas whose resolution
has absolutely no bearing on the matter of ethical vegetarianism.
Another possibility is that these are a bunch of "thrill-seekers", getting
their jollies off of teasing vegetarians; in which case I would urge them to
go waste the time of someone else, someone negative.

>Donata
>-----------------------------------
>Donata M. Valli c/o ldh@svl.cdc.com
>"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way
>of a whole human being."
>    Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

Thank you for your post.  I couldn't agree with you more.
From: red_trek@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: vegan bacon?
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:58:17 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

I'm an aspiring vegan (my eating profile has been nearly vegetarian
for four months and nearly vegan for one or two months.  Seafood
consumption is down to once or twice a week--none at all for
the past ten days or so.  Egg and dairy products usually sneak
their way into my diet in disguised form --e.g. , candy :-( ).

I recently started a new job.  My boss said she used to be vegetarian
for five years, but started eating meat again when she realized
she really missed the taste of bacon.

Does anyone know of something on the market that resembles the 
taste of bacon, or at least bacon fat?  I'd sure like to 
suggest it to her, whatever it is!

E-mail me please, or just post.

--Andrea Shettle/Red Trek
From: dbader@eng.umd.edu (David Bader)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: vegan bacon?
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:59:12 GMT
Organization: Professional Student, University of Maryland, College Park
Originator: dbader@mountaindew.eng.umd.edu


In article <1992Dec15.185828.2758@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, red_trek@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
>Does anyone know of something on the market that resembles the 
>taste of bacon, or at least bacon fat?  I'd sure like to 

I believe in my local Giant supermarket, there is a brand (I believe) called
"Morning Sunshine" that carries Breakfast items which contain "No Animal Fat" and
I think are vegetarian.  They have bacon, sausage, and hamburger -like products
made from TVP.  

ppppppps,
   david
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: sj@netcom.com (Suzanne Jacobs)
Subject: vitamins and hot flashes
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:57:47 GMT

I've always taken Schiff veg multiple vitamins, but they've
recently begun giving me hot flashes.  You're supposed to take
2 per day, so I've started taking 1 in the morning and 1 at night.
Sure nuff, I get smaller hot flashes.

Any ideas?  I'd hate to go w/o vitamins, but I don't think hot
flashes are healthy either.
From: kra@sdd.hp.com (Katherine Albitz)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: New Orleans Chowder
Date: 16 Dec 1992 17:12:25 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdlq.sdd.hp.com


This chowder is healthy and flavorful. I expect that the cheese
can be left out, but I've never tried that. Prudhomme's seasoning
blends are commonly available in USA grocery stores.

New Orleans Chowder

1 1/2 onions, chopped
1 carrot, chopped
1/2 green pepper, chopped
1/2 red pepper, chopped
1 t oil
1 1/2 T flour
5 cups veg. stock
2 potatoes, peeled, cubed
2 1/2 cups corn
2 oz cheddar cheese, cubed
1-2 T Paul Prudhomme's Blackened
      Redfish Magic Seasoning Blend
1/2 - 1 t tobasco
1/2 salt

Saute onions, carrot, peppers in oil till
onions are soft. Add flour and stir till
mixed well.

Gradually stir in stock, stiring well.
Bring to boil, cook till thick.

Add potatoes, reduce heat, simmer 10 min.
Add corn. Cook till potatoes are tender.

Puree about 1/2 the veggies in a food
processor (or mash by hand), along with
the cheese.

Return puree to pot, add seasonings to
taste, simmer 5 minutes. 

Serves 3-4 hungry people.


Katherine Albitz
kra@sdd.hp.com
From: sritacco@wet.UUCP (Steve Ritacco)
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
Subject: Evolution Cat Food
Date: 21 Dec 92 05:53:06 GMT
Organization: Wetware Diversions, San Francisco

Hi,

Is anyone out there feeding their cats "Evolution" vegetarian cat food?

If so, do you have any comments about it?

I would like to try it out on my pets, but I would have to have some very
positive recomendations from individuals.

I currently feed them "Max Cat" which they both love.  I really don't feel
that I must feed them a vegetarian diet, I just want them to have long healthy
lives.  While I like the ingredients of Max Cat better that most of the other
foods, there are still preservatives and various meat product in it that I am
concerned about.

If there are other products you prefer to "Evolution" I would like to hear about
them too.

Many Thanks,

Steve

Newsgroups: rec.food.veg
From: jon@afs.com
Subject: Re: Let them eat grass!
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:39:35 GMT

 It appears to me that the main problem is that these animals have an instinctive
pattern of eating meat. A lion isn't going to eat some pseudo-meat plant.
Also, there is the issue of checks&balances. Those antelopes are going to breed,
without any restraint. Pretty soon, there will be too many antelopes, and the 
lions won't be able to get _their_ food. Also, the lions tend to kill the weak
slow and sick antelopes. If these aren't killed, it's detrimental to the herd.
(Antelopes with genetic problems continue to reproduce, multiplying the numbers of
weak/sick antelopes). 

As for antelopes with detachable limbs. Would it be better to have your limbs
repeatedly torn off? Also, the lizard's tail serves as a decoy. Considering how 
big cats hunt, I doubt they would be deterred from the kill. Especially since
they go for the throat.

Meat growing on plants: Meat is muscle. If a plant could be made which had real
muscle, the muscle would serve no purpose except to get that plant eaten. That plant
wouldn't be around too long. A predatory animal isn't very delicate about it's eating.

In any case, it seems to me that there is nothing wrong with a predatory animal eating
meat. It uses what it gets, after all. Also, it doesn't "raise" the animals for its own food.
 The prey animal lives a full, free life prior to becoming the lion's meal. And,
the (predator)animal knows no other way of life. We have a choice. A lion doesn't.

Perhaps the real issue is how to stop whales from eating plankton. After all, a 
single blue whale can consume oh, probably billions, if not trillions, of those
tiny, defenseless things in one gulp. ( apply :)'s liberally to this paragraph...)




Newsgroups: rec.food.veg