From: rwstarke@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Ross W. Starkey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Marwan GET A LIFE
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:32:18 GMT
Reply-To: rwstarke@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Ross W. Starkey)
Distribution: world
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI


Surprise, Surprise, its Ilan, posting w/ permission

Marwan (Epstien, the Puerto Rican Jew) writes:

>Some pro-Israeli people on this net continuously brag about the 
>following Issues:

> 1) Israel is a democracy (sorry about fixing your grammar)

Well, if by the term "democracy", you mean that it tolerates free speech
and free press, even that written against it, and that its parliament is
voted for by all citizens and that all political viewpoints are accepted.
Yes, I think I do think it is a democracy.

 > 2) Israel treats palestinians "nicely" ... In fact some bozo even
 >    suggested that Palestinians are "more happy" under the Israeli
 >    occupation that they have ever been.

Allright, who said that, I want a name Marwan, because I son't believe
that anyone here said that.  It is true that the Palestinians are, for
the most part, better off in Israel than they were under Jordanian rule.
However, only an utter fool would claim that they were less happy in the
past.
 
 > 3) Condemn any form of predgedism against them by using the term
 >    "Anti-semitism" and forget how much there hearts could be filled
 >    with hatred to other people (e.g. Palestinians).

Predgedism???, do you mean prejudice or prejudgment, try using words commonly
found in a dictionary, not from Don King's mouth.  

As to your point, well Yes, we do get upset when certain racists (Marwan
Gharaybeh for one) say things like "The holocaust is a zionist invention"
or zionism is Nazism (I think I quoted you correctly), then yes, I claim
"Anti-Semitism", I'm kind of funny that way.  On your second point, I must
ask if you also believe that no Palestinian could have hate in his heart 
towards Jews, or is hatred merely the property of us "Zionist occupiers".
Hatred is a 2 way street.

>For those people I would like their explanation to the following story ...
>In 1987 when the Intefada exploded in the occupied territories, there
>were still some western reporters in the west bank, that was before
>the Israeli "Democrates" expelled/sensored them so that they would excersise
>their hatred freely (the term "Free is often used by Democracy supporters) ...
>These reporters were able to shoot a true sceen of the intefada and how
>much hatred is overfilled in the Israeli hearts.

The Intifada (sorry, I don't have a Marwan-English translator for his 
attrocious spelling) was a very difficult situation, and the "rocks" (which
Newsweek accurately reported had 2" spikes attached which seriously injured 
some soldiers) being thrown by Palestinians forced Israeli forces to return
fire.  Unlike your assertions to the contrary.  The only time reporters were
banned from the Occupied Territories was when either a battle was expected
or the press interfered with the ability of Security personnel to do their
jobs.  However, the press has never been prevented from filming demonstra-
tions, or you wouldn't be able to have the misinformation that you do.

Plus, note the line "how much hatred is overfilled in the Israeli hearts".
Note the fact that he puts all Israelis into one group, thus saying, de
facto, "All Jews were shooting us", instead of saying "hatred in the 
soldier's hearts".  I will note that you also deny any hatred by Palestinians,
because, of course, its all the Zionists fault.

>The sceen was about two brothers from Nablus (Nablus==Jabal El-Nar==the
>mountainf fire) running with fear from 7-8 Israeli soldiers who finally
>captured them ... The reporter was probably hiding on an adjacent hill, so
>the sceen looked like taken from a distance ... One of the soldiers looked
>all around him to see that there is nobody seeing him (the stupid did not
>see the reporter and the camera) and after that the 5 DEVILS started their
>evil business ... 2 of the Devils held the arab teenager, one pressed him
>firmly to the ground and the other twisted the boy's arm and extended his
>elbow behind his back ... Another Devil looked around him and found a huge
>rock on the ground, he picked it up, and then with all his force, he lifted
>it high up and slamed it to the poor guys hand ... For those pro-Israelis,
>I want to say that the devil hit the boy on his Elbow ... GOD ... THE
>ELBOW ... I sware to god that I felt that stone on my elbow as I was 
>watching the scene ... The scene was so unpleasent to watch that I could
>not bear to continue to see it ... I jumped and went streight to my room.

OK, Marwan, this shit is getting annoying.  I demand one thing.  SHOW
DOCUMENTATION.  Your racist garbage is sufficiently obnoxious that I 
will state right here.

I BELIEVE MARWAN GHARAYBEH MADE THIS UP.

I demand documentation from a credible source.  Not the Saudi Daily
Journal, not the PLO Monthly,  I want a Western daily, weekly, or monthly. 
NYT, Newsweek, the Economist, US News & World report.  When you provide
a source and reference so I may look it up, then I will respond.  NOT
until then.

However, please note that he refers to Jews as Devils, and he wonders why
we call him anti-Semitic.

>But as I got there, I was woundering, what kind of hate do the Israelis have
>and how can a human being be so crewl? ... Pro-Israelis ... Please elaborate.
>I realy want to know how much would an average Israeli hate Arabs.

I can't speak for all, but for the most of us, we don't hate Arabs in general,
only specific ones (YOU for instance), I appreciate the intellect of posters
like manu and Anwar who make intelligent well thought out arguments and seek
to inform, not offend.  Concurrently, I despise schmucks like Mordecai Levi
and the late Meir Kahana.  You are an embarrassment to Islam, Arabic culture,
posters on TPM, and humanity in general.  GROW UP.

By the way, ever hear of a spell-checker.  Or maybe a dictionary.
Racism is wrong, no matter which side commits it.

By the way, on the subject of cruelty, do you defend the Arab terrorists who
shot and killed a man in a wheelchair (Leon Klinghoffer) on the Achille 
Lauro and then threw him overboard.  Do you defend the Arabs who murdered 7
Israeli atheletes at the 1972 Olympics.  Do you feel the Arabs (note: the 
individual Arabs, not the race) who have blown up numerous aircraft over the
past 20 years.  I await your answer, because hatred is a 2 way street, and
Arabs have travelled it many times, as have many Jews.  Peace will never come
until both sides agree to live together in harmony, not hatred.

Ilan U. Woll
Wayne State U.
userzv6z@wayne.edu.bitnet

If ignorance were bliss, Marwan would be on Nirvana

Damn the > signs, full speed ahead



-- 
Ross Starkey                         "Of course you know, this means WAR." 
rwstarke@vela.acs.oakland.edu        "This whole thing is goony, I shou'da
                                      stood in bed!"  "Gruesome, isn't it?"
FIGHT DICTATORSHIP!  VOTE!!!!                                  --Bugs Bunny
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast