HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: knighton@world.std.com (Gwen Knighton)
Subject: Re: Pat Robertson
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:25:42 GMT

In article <25JAN199312511666@csa2.lbl.gov> tonya@csa2.lbl.gov (TONYA PUONCEY) writes:
>but It is a fact that he was passed over for Republican 
>presidential nomination in 1988 because he married his girlfriend
>out of wedlock (way out of wedlock, like 7 months!)
>
>
er, how does one marry out of wedlock? I'm confused. 

Gwen Knighton            knighton@world.std.com          (bard for hire)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  When you have killed, and your bowl it is spilled, and your shoes are
        clean outworn,
  Back you will speed, for all that you need, to Oak and Ash and Thorn!
                        --Rudyard Kipling
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: "Winds' Four Quarters"
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 00:54:09 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

an5445@anon.penet.fi (Bad Elf) writes:

> 	I have been informed by someone who I believe has good reason to
> know that the song "Winds' Four Quarters" by Mercedes Lackey (found on the
> filk tapes "Magic, Moondust, and Melancholy" and "Oathbound" and frequently
> performed at SF&F conventions and SCA bardic circles) is basically a
> Wiccan invocation of the Goddess.  I would be very interested in comments
> on this; it's one of my best performance numbers, but I would probably either
> drop it or cut down on its use if it turns out that it's a "real" religious
> song and not a "pretend" one.  I have no problems whatsoever with Wiccans

Why not perform it? One finds Xtian hymns in performances outside a
Xtian church context, e.g. Gospel music... as long as you perform
with reverence and respect, I doubt that the Goddess would object,
and who's going to know in the audience that your song is an invocation
if you don't tell them who wouldn't appreciate it?
                                      Blessed Be,
                                      A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
[path]!pacbell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.0 public key available on request.
From: vossdavi@student.msu.edu (Lisa Ann)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: The ABYSS Catalog
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:41:16 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Chaotic Goods
NNTP-Posting-Host: cemmac09.cem.msu.edu

In article <C16y9w.1v4@umassd.edu>, acsrdl@UMASSD.EDU wrote:
> 
> Could someone please post the US-Mail address for the Abyss bookstore?  It's
> been a while since I received one of their catalogs, and embarassingly enough
> a friend of mine asked me about something I was *SURE* was in it... and I
> couldn't find a copy of it.  Thanks!

     I have the address for that catalog, but not with me. I promise to
post it tomorrow. While I'm at it, would anyone be interested in a list of
addresses for catalogs that carry Pagan/Wiccan/occult type things? I made a
huge list a while back to locate those hard to find supplies. I'd be happy
to post it if anyone is interested.

     Blessed be,

     Lisa Ann, or she who has a bizzare addiction to mail order.
From: K.M.Hetherington@bradford.ac.uk (KM HETHERINGTON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Ritual Abuse, Ms & Pagans...
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:37:30 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 92129050@mail

I've noticed a lot of debate in both this newsgroup and in alt.sexual abuse.
recovery about an article which has recently appeared in a magazine called
"Ms".  This magazine has a very limited distribution in the UK, and very
few Pagans will have seen it. I edit a newsletter and intend to do an
article about it, what it alleges and the effect it has had on Pagans in
the States. So...

If you have had any hassle as a result of this or similar articles (the
major problem in the UK is excessive interest from social workers towards
Pagans with children), or if you simply wish to vent your spleen please
get in touch.

The newsletter is written in a fairly lively style and tends to parody
a newspaper called the Sport (the nearest US equivalent is probably the 
Weekly World News!) but don't let that put you off--I tackle serious 
issues and tend to go into a surprising amount of depth given the number of
words used! I concentrate on the activities of religious fundamentalists
and the effects they have on Pagans and any others with "alternative"
lifestyles.

Any background on Fundamentalism would be much appreciated--we have enough
trouble keeping up with our home-grown variety.  Important issues (to me)
are things like censorship, laws (affecting religious freedom, gays,
abortion etc) and any other ways that fundies try and govern the lives of
everyone.

Thank You

Feorag
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Whale Puke [was: Elemental Oils]
Organization: California State University Sacramento
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:03:12 GMT

In article <1jlnb1INNeok@phakt.usc.edu>
   cokin@phakt.usc.edu (Darren Cokin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.014605.14048@csus.edu>
   altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>
[ref. to ambergris...]
>
>>(Does the stuff stick to your foot, or just sort of slide off?)
>
>Neither.  It's a solid.  Kinda like pummice stone, filled with holes.  
>
>I'd like to explain how I know that, since it's kinda strange.  Many years
>ago I saw an ambergris episode of Batman.  ("Holy Ambergris Batman!")  I think
>penguin or someone was stealing it.  It stuck in my mind because just days
>before I saw the episode I read an Encyclopedia Brown book where Encyclopedia
>proved that Bugs Meaney (how the hell did I remeber that name?) stole the
>ambergris from Encyclopedia's client, because Bugs claimed he found it on the
>ocean floor, and rolled it ashore.  Encyclopedia then pointed out that 
>ambergris floats.
>
>I can't remember the name of my best friend in gradeschool, but I remeber this
>from then.  WHY?  Fuck it....
>
>                                                       Darren

All I can say is, if those were my references in a formal logic class, I
sure wouldn't admit it...

'Course, alt.pagan might be a lot closer to Batman and Encyclopedia Brown
than to formal logic. At least it sure seems that way sometimes... :-)

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: kendrick+@CMU.EDU (Kendrick Kerwin Chua)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:11:12 GMT
	<1k2rgcINNm2c@shelley.u.washington.edu>
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

In article <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org> Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (
Richard Willis) writes:
>
>               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you will go
>to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?

I'm just curious. Why is it that anything that is not considered
Christian must come from "the other guy", eg Satan? (Shades of grey,
people).

Besides that, this group is for intelligent discussion of what all the
regular posters recognize as paganism, and so far we've been able to at
least carry on interesting conversations, to say nothing of backing up
our beliefs. You may post all the propoganda you want, but if it's not
backed up then no one will listen.


Kendrick Kerwin Chua

kc3u+@andrew.cmu.edu    or
kendrick+@CMU.EDU

Dark Lord awaken!
From: a_weitz@pavo.concordia.ca (WEITZMAN, ANDREW)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Room for rent
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:06:00 GMT
Distribution: dc
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan13.223119.16245@wam.umd.edu>, lecuyer@wam.umd.edu (Catherine L. LeCuyer) writes...
>Hello
>I know this is rather mundane - but my housemate and I ARE pagan
>and we need a housemate to share a beautiful house in Takoma Park MD.
>The house is 2 blocks from the metro,has lots of storage,a w/d,and 2 full
>baths.The room has AC.The rent is $350/month + 1/3 utilities.Sorry 
>due to alergies - no smokers or furry familars.If you or anyone you
>know(Or anyone THEY know) needs a place to live PLEASE call Ellen
>301-270-5761 or Catherine 301-270-2318. Available imediately.
Free-floating elemental from Earth plane seeks couple for fun, conversation,
fertility worship.  You: pagan, fun-loving, willing to put up with
dirt on the carpets.  Me: Shapeless blob of eldritch energy, glows
in dark, great at parties.  No freaks.
<g>
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: regarding witchburning in computer games
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:20:57 GMT
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

redsonja@olias.linet.org (Red Sonja) writes:
 
> And now, pagans, what do we do about the computer game Darklands which
> is actually extolling this activity, proudly cites the HexenHammer (as
> it was called in Germany) as a reference, and turns seeking out and
> destroying witches and pagan altars into a game?!??? Has anybody seen
> this game yet??? I was stationed in Germany for a while and this is my
> first year back, and my fiancee purchased the game as a gift. 
Supposedly
> it re-creates medieval Germany. This particular aspect of the game is > 
extremely disturbing. It is presented in a very jaundiced and intolerant 
> way in the manual as well. >
> Suggestions very welcome!!

OK, I have NOT seen this game myself, would anyone else who HAS like
to comment? 

The manufacturer of the game is :
MicroProse
180 Lakefront Drive
Hunt Valley, MD 21030

410-771-1151 
The game was:

Designed by Arnold Hendrick

The list price is $69.95, MS-DOS VGA, mouse recommended...

IF the game is as described, it doesn't sound any more offensive than
the games based on playing the role of a Nazi concentration camp
commander killing Jews in a death camp.

                                       Blessed Be,
                                       A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.1 public key available on request.
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:45:27 GMT
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:

> 
>                To Whom It May Concern,
> 
>                There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you will go
> to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
> 
> 
>  * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)
> 

I already complained to the Fido gateway and to his sysop (assuming
I got the Fido addressing right.)
                                         
                              Blessings...
                                 A.Lizard

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.1 public key available on request.
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Why Science Fiction?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 10:24:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <2440@hsdndev.UUCP> traite@dante.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite) writes:
>I was just wondering does anyone have any ideas as to why so many wiccans/
>pagans/neopagans into science fiction??  Sometimes I feel like I'm the
>only one out there who doesn't  read science fiction.  My preferred 
>recreational reading tends towards historical fiction, social/political 
>histories (epecially of the Middle Ages... well I AM in the SCA), mythology,
>anthropology, herbals and  historically inspired fantasy.
>(M. Zimmer-Bradley, Diana Paxton, K. Kurtz etc) 

But MZB *is* science fiction. But I understand your distinction. Personally,
I don't think it's so much a matter of pagans et.al. being into science
fiction, as it is science fiction fans being into paganism. Granted, there
are many fans who claim to be pagans without understanding it fully, like
it was some kind of role playing game or something. But I believe it's
science fiction and fantasy (which is really redundant if you think about it)
that have opened minds up enough to let them accept the idea that paganism
isn't something to be shunned or feared.

Not all who enjoy science fiction are fans. Not all who claim to be pagans
are religious.

><> IT IS A VIRTUE TO HAVE AN OPEN AND INQUISITIVE MIND. <>

Very true.

Bb,
Corun



-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |     What appears to be coming at you,
  Dark Horde by birth  |           is coming from you.
    Moritu by choice   |			J. Flanders
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Catalogs! Lots of Catalogs! (long)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:28:56 GMT

Could someone repost this or email it?  The original article expired before I
could get the list. :(
-- 
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS
Keywords: "Eck" (what a PERFECT name for it, I feel that way about it too)
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:00:28 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1421@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM>, ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:

[ a great deal of silliness, ending with: ]

> 			- Ashley,
> 			Exhaulted High Pooh-bah,
> 			Director of Operations, Kaos Laboratories, 
> 			Soverign Republic of Steve

Great forests, I've lost track!  You mean I've achieved Republichood?
Fear not, brave p-folk, I shall not become a Republican!

(Always encourage silliness, is what I say!)

But, Ashley, there was one thing I didn't understand:

> 	(Kaos Labs VestialVirgins(tm) are now available for your pleasure in 
> 	the sex of your choice! We do frat parties, bachelor parties and 
> 	bar-mitzvahs!! Request your favorite again and again, VIRGINITY is 
> 	SURGICLY RESTORED and GAR-UN-TEEED!)

I think there's a typo in there - aren't those "VestgialVirgins"?

				- - Steve



--
Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!
From: A.j..Drew@f520.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (A.j. Drew)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Magic Shop
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 00:51:00 EST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/520 - Mystic Life, Columbus OH

For the purpose of discussion, nothing in this post is to be considered
slight of hand.  Please feel free to add the j, k, or what ever other
distinction you feel necessary.

I am considering opening a Magic Shop to be called City Witch.  The idea
is to offer a Magic Convienance store for city dwelling Witchs.  I would
like sudjestions of items to carry.  Think of things friends have come
to you for, things you get from friends, ect...  Remember, there are A
LOT of sole practicioners who don't have friends or covens to turn to
for supplies.

Any input is more than welcome.

(c) Blessed be and ride free,

    A.J. Drew
    The Mad Monk of the Midwest


 * SLMR 2.1a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic

 * SLMR 2.1a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic


--  
A.j. Drew via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!uunet.uu.net!towers!bluemoon!cmhgate!520!A.j..Drew
INET: A.j..Drew@f520.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Please use bang path until my mail forwarding gets fixed.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tmd@wixer.cactus.org (Tom Davis)
Subject: Re: Masonic Practices??
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:51:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.215526.11908@fuug.fi> an4484@anon.penet.fi writes:

>My understanding (as much I guess as an outsider could have) of Masonic
>practices would be that they descend from the Knights Templar of around
>the time of the middle ages. Their purpose inbeing was to be the guardians
>of the Holy Grail.
>
>Funny though....I was talking to a Witch whose grandfather was a Mason and
>it seems their beliefs are a little more elaborate than that. It seems that
>the whole idea behind Masonry is that Christ as a man was married or at
>least had sexual relations with Mary Magdelan which produced offspring.
>The Masons  then have one purpose....to defend these descendants of Christ
>down through the ages.
>
>And the reason for the secrecy is that the whole premise of the Christian
>religion is the fact that Jesus was the Son of God....hence the need for
>secrecy....

It sounds like your friend's been reading a book entitled "Holy Blood,
Holy Grail" by Baigent et al., in which this exact premise is expounded.
Or, if she's seen independent verification of the premises of the book,
the authors of it would be _delighted_ to hear of that.

As one who was initiated into (the lowest 3 degrees of) Freemasonry, I
can tell you that (that part of) the "craft" has _nothing_ to do with
the bloodline/grail theory. [For those of you who haven't read the book,
consider this: "Holy Grail" is "San Graal" (misspellings aside), and
"Holy Blood" is "Sang Raal" (again) -- an easy step for a semiliterate
population.]

-- 
   Tom Davis                    Internet address: tmd@wixer.cactus.org
	"Imagine there's no countries; it isn't hard to do;
	 Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too."
   [Disclaimer: I speak for nobody but me - and sometimes not even that.]
From: steward@cup.portal.com (John Joseph Deltuvia)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature reply:  Men are not Witches!
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 15:52:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1993Jan14.180538.22095@csus.edu> <1j98i2INN19j@mirror.digex.com>
  <1993Jan19.174013.21605@csus.edu> <1juqu4INN787@digex.digex.com>

While I don't have an up-to-date editor which lets me easily put in quotes
from the last thirty posts or so, I DO have an up-to-date edition of the
somewhat maligned American Heritage Dictionary:

witch n. 1. A woman popularly believed to have supernatural powers and 
practice sorcery, and often believed to be aided by spirits or a familiar.

2. A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
(also 3 more noun and 2 verb definitions)

The word history the dictionary gives, as well as the Proto-Indo etymology,
make it clear that the word "witch" derives from both male-gender and 
female-gender nouns.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: contradiction?
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<2B672905.13339@news.service.uci.edu> 
	<1993Jan28.175430.27624@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
Date: 28 Jan 1993 20:13:45 UTC

In article <1993Jan28.175430.27624@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> 
boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:
>Try this pair on for size:
>	"You don't love me, therefore you hate me."
>	"You don't hate me, therefore you love me."
>Seems like there oughta be some kind of middle ground for those
>folks who don't know me and those folks who don't give a preacher's
>damn for me!
>Any logicians out there who can explain the difference between any
>of the statement pairs that have been offered?

I'm not a logician but I have played one on TV and besides I have
designed >million transistor asics (on TV that is). Anyway, it's simple.
Assume binary logic for now, in other words no middle ground, none of
that fuzzy logic stuff. Class A are people who don't love you and don't
hate you, they are neutral. Class B are people who don't love you and
hate you, they are enemies. Class C are people who love you and don't
hate you, they are friends. Class D are people who love you and hate
you, they are psychos or schizophrenics and are in demand on talk shows.
So: Rule #1: "You don't love me, therefore you hate me."
Class A: don't love me so they must hate me [false]
Class B: don't love me so they must hate me [true]
Class C: love me so this rule doesn't apply
Class D: love me so this rule doesn't apply
So: Rule #2: "You don't hate me, therefore you love me."
Class A: don't hate me so they must love me [false]
Class B: hate me so this rule doesn't apply
Class C: don't hate me so they must love me [true]
Class D: hate me so this rule doesn't apply

Sabe? Qui-mo (Kimo) Sabe?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Subject: Re: Critical Thought
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:35:23 GMT

In article <stacey-270193115031@scorpio.ucs.uoknor.edu> stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin) writes:
>In article <C1HEJy.3AK@athena.cs.uga.edu>, you wrote:
>> 
>> > (I wrote)
>> >       I also very much liked your statement about Catholicism
>> >	keeping us from God. OH, YES. Campbell says that all Western religious
>> >	traditions, including Judaism, are religions of exile - separating man	
>> >	from God.
>> 
>> Campbell says this because he does not believe in a personal creatore
>>present to the world yet distinct from it.  So, of course Western religions
>>keep people from God.  
>
>       Campbell states
>	that unlike many Eastern religions, where you are invited to step
>	across the Threshold, Western religions emphasize expulsion (as from
>	Paradise), the unaccessability of God, and separateness (you as a 
>	believer are not encouraged to oneness

You are right in the part about explusion from paradise or alienation from
God, but in all of the three major western religions, Jusdaism, Christianity,
and Islam encourage oneness with God, it is just a unity that does not blurr
or extinguish personal identity.  I think somewhere in the gospel of John
there is a rather romantic plead for unity between God, Jesus, and believers.

>       unless, of course, it's by
>	their rules, and the spiritual/mystical NEVER plays by any rules).

Are you saying that reality admists to 'no' rules?  I mean, that there are no
truths that if one followed then one would be better off than if one didn't?
This is the interesting demarcation that divides much of eastern and western
religions and philosphies.  A. N. Whitehead would say that all that is is
conceivable (not imagine) and describable.  A Zenist would simply ask you were
you were before your mother was born and smile while beating you over the head
with a feather.  It's interesting, though, that the contemporary western world
has promulgated the idea that reality is logical and conceivable in the world
of matter and sensation but that when one talks about metaphysical concepts
forget trying to be consistent in seeking truth.
>

>> What he really
>> believes is a type of Hinduism, that all things are really the same
>> manifestation of the one reality which is beyond all logic, personality, and
>> rationality.
>
>	Uh, does this mean that the belief you say JC has is beyond all logic,
>etc.,  

If that was then case, then nothing he said would be meaningful.

>	or that the one reality is beyond all logic, etc.?

Yes.

>	Many great mystics of
>	Judaism and Catholicism have taken a point of view much closer to the
>	Eastern rather than Western tradition.

I suppose that is why they were called heretics.  Mysticism was tolerated as
long as one didn't unite God and humanity completely without distinctions. 
Thomas A Kempis is a good example of medieval mystic who keep a personal
relation with God throughout his experiences.

Ted
Newsgroups: alt.pagan