From: mpolen@suntory.mips.com (Michael Polen)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Why I cannot vote Democratic
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:54:51 GMT
Reply-To: mpolen@suntory.mips.com (Michael Polen)
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: suntory.mips.com

Michael Lee) writes:
|> Kathy Beatty):
|> > nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
|> > :
|> > :   I wasn't trying to leave that part out of the issue; I just took it for
|> > :   granted that this was understood (that nobody wants to pay for these
|> > :   things).
|> > :
|> > You should not take it for granted. Many of us think that our taxes are the
|> > price we should be paying for good government. It's not true that nobody
|> > wants to pay; we just don't want to pay more than our fair share.
|> >
|> >
|> > Kathy
|> 
|> How can you determine what fair is?
|> 
|> Is fair based on:
|> 
|> 1. income, earned or unearned?
|> 2. assets, which kinds - houses, factories, schools, cars?
|> 3. consumption - of food, services, clothing, shelter, TVs?
|> 4. number of children
|> 5. religion
|> 6. race
|> 
|> Taxes are based on combinations of these factors in various governments
|> through the world and NONE of them are "fair".
|> 
|> By "fair", I mean moral/ethical/honest/right thing to do.
|> 
|> Taking something from someone else by force is inherently immoral and
|> cannot be made moral/ethical/honest/right or fair.
|> 
|> Different taxes may be more or less fair/moral/ethical.
|> So, which kind of tax is the "most" fair?
|> That depends entirely on subjective values.
|> 
|> My value is that the most fair tax must be voluntary or 0%.
|> 
This is certainly one of the dumber things I have ever heard.  It is like
saying that it is unfair that the Boy Scouts or the Kiwanis, etc. have 
membership fees and dues.  There are costs for participating in any
organization, and the US is nothing more than that.  If you find a club
you like better fine.  If you want to lobby to change the amount of 
dues or to reduce the benefits of membership, fine.  But if you want
the benefits of membership, but want support of those benefits to be
voluntary, bull shit.

Civilized mankind forms tribes, countries, religions, etc. for the
purpose of sharing the costs ($ or labor) of mutually beneficial
services.  This has been going on for thousands of years, and will
continue.  If you are one of the rare few that needs no support or 
service from others and finds no value in sharing the load with
others, find a place that allows it.

|> Of course, that is a contradiction of the basic nature of taxes.
|> They are always mandatory and greater than 0%.
|> 

|> The original income tax was 1-2% and affected people with income > $50,000.
|> That is certainly more fair than what we have today ... but not completely
|> fair.
|> 
|> 
|> Interesting facts:
|> 
|> The total of all taxes collected by all governments (state, federal, local)
|> in the US is about 44% of total income in the US.
|> 
|> If the personal income tax were completely eliminated, the total taxes
|> would be about 33% of total income.  This is what the serfs paid in the
|> Middle Ages in Europe.
|> 
|> If the personal income tax were completely eliminated, the US federal budget
|> would be reduced to what it was way back in 1987. :-)
|> 
|> That's how fast our govt. is growing.  I wouldn't mind paying for "good"
|> govt. either.  But, only a very small part of our govt. is doing "good".
|> The rest is doing "bad".
|> 
|> A step in the right direction is to reduce what govt. is doing.  One of
|> the "bad" things our govt. does is to cut "good" programs instead of "bad"
|> programs when we reduce its income.
|> 
|> We get tricked into increasing taxes because they won't stop doing the
|> "bad" things and we want them to keep doing the relatively "good" things.
|> 
|> 
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------
|> It is often stated (and certainly true) that the poor have no right
|> to the wealth of the rich.  It is seldom stated (but equally true)
|> that the rich have no right to the wealth of the poor.
|> -------------------------------------------------------------------
|> I prefer a small government which may permit some evil to
|> a large government which promotes evil at my expense.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------
|> 
|> Michael Lee
|> mlee@esd.dl.nec.com
|> 214-518-3807

-- 
_________________________________________
These opinions are usually my own, sometimes my
dog's, never my employer's.
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