From: RUBAN@hartford.bitnet ("Timur Y. Ruban")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: RE:RE: Some thoughts on ... culture (Part II) Sorry for Mistake.
Date: 24 Dec 92 17:21:00 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

Sorry for the unfinished post - my modewm and telephone line (together with
my hands) screwed up again!

****************** Beginning of mesage ********

From:         Sergei Borodin <sergei@UPENN5.HEP.UPENN.EDU>

>> BTW, I consider (my personal opinion) usage of
>>'mat' in public places as one of signs that one is moving in that
>>direction (a good 'hot' word sometimes does not hurt, but in certain quantitie
s
>>and not in public discussions).
>
>  Agree. And it was certainly true in xSU, and I still get shocked
>  when I hear something like that in *russian* movies. However, we
>  might have a different phenomena here. In American movies, which
>  actually make a mass culture, swear words are a must, so people
>  get used to it.  I guess, many people from xSU might consider it
>  as a simbol of liberation, especially thinking about xSU as
>  a "prison of nations".

Interesting point - I have never thought about it that way.  More actually,
as the destruction of balance between sub-cultures inside of USSR.
  For instance, swearing (particularly 'mat') was trite commonality in certain
particulr of such subcultures (or some of them).  Each of such sub-cultures was
living in its own political, social and even geographical (did'n you have the
divisions of regions in the city where you lived, in which where living 'vyshki'
'z'loby', )  Kiev, for instance, was divided pretty much.  The first (main one)
between new and old cities (Right and Left banks of Dnipro).  Than we had
borrows with 'priveleged' (Pechersk, 'Krest' - sorry, Kreschatik, partually
areas of Podol, Kurenivka, etc.) who had their own environment, their own lan-
guage, their own fashion in everything.  At the other side, there was Bereznyaki
Rusanivka and Borschagivka (right bank) that were primarily populated with
'migrants' from rural areas and were called (please, no offense to our rural
friends in nets or those who lived in mentioned borows), 'z'loby'.  This
people had their own culture, with own values and fashions.  I've spend enough
time in both of them, and I can testify that each of them was pretty different
from each other, though many of inhabitats had similar roots.  BTW, the division
was not only by borrows but even by blocks and houses - 'Komitetskie doma' in
Solominka, for instance, or "Gosplanovskie doma" all along the blvd. of Druz'by
narodov.
  Essentially, a lot of this bioses and small environments were broken with the
events of past 6 years.  Sub-cultures were mixed even more, and as a result we
can see certain signs of larger sub-cultures everywhere (including swearing).

>  Actually, I had a couple of friends
>  back in Russia, who were involved in movie business and they
>  saw a sort of "bone tone" to swear in public - not that they were
>  "low lifes" but rather the environment they worked in makes the
>  things different (recent soviet movies -"chernuha" - perfectly
>  prove my words - like a shit called "Taxi Blues").

  Actually, 'kinematographiya' in xUSSR, together with Unions of Writers, Com-
posers, and other 'Deyatelej Kultury' (perfectly shown in 'Master..') were
in many ways similar to those of US's Hollywood (I AM NOT A DAN QUAYLE, honestly
, I AM NOT :)).  Of course, together with "TAXI Vlues" we had "Tot samyj Myunh-
gausen" and "Dom kotoryj postroil Swift".  But this industry, indeed, tool
fastest all "the best" from "free-market and free-speech" world.


>  I, myself, cant't resist when I see a trite joke posted by a woman.
>  Zasluzhila, dura.

  :-)

>>  For instance, someone said that Sovoks are always ignorant to how surroundin
g
>>will look at them.  Are too straight forward.  Too impolite.  Too loud.  I
> mean,
>>there are many 'prejudices', but the point is that all these characteristics
>>I can find in myself, and sometimes not!  Even more, I can find completely
>>opposite.
>
>  Actually, I don't like the term "sovok". The instance you wrote,
>  compiled somebodies word, is a bullshit.  People are different and
<  no one can make a generalization like that.

It is a bullshit, I agree. But this is a pretty frequent opinion.  And the
same regarding the term itself (BTW, I was introduced to it in this nets).
  And still, though people are different, the majority of them DO has certain
similarities in their behavior, mentality and thinking.  And those of the
xUSSR are not the exclusion.


> I often see that
>  instance here in the US and I can`t suspect people who demonstrate
>  that of being "sovoks". I, myself, won't participate in the discussion
>  about characteristics of "sovoks" - it doesn't make any sense to me
>  for the reason above - I've seen enough people to make that conclusion.

OK.  Maybe I phrased it wrong - my appologies.  For you probably "sovok" is a
negative term.  For many, negative and they are ashamed.  For many, negative
and they are proud.  But the point is, that however you call him/her there is
a certain 'person' with certain characteristics that belong only to him/her
and unique to the Soviet environment (quite possibly that there are couple of
them, than we can talk about more than one 'person').  Once again, look at
literally works of some Soviet writers.  Strugatskie, for instance.  Almost in
all their works we can see diferent sides of ourselves or our 'so-suschestvova-
telej po obschestvu".
  For many "sovok", is something similar to what was shown in "Gadkie Lebedi"
(negative image), or something like in "Paren' iz preispodnej" or "Trudno byt'
bogom".  I remember reading "Samizdat" version of Efremov's "Chas byka" -
also a very interesting mirror of "realities" in USSR's "worlds".
  I think - there is a lot of to discuss.  Maybe not in the form, as it was
done in Spring (discussion about "Sovoks") and not wth the same themes.  But
definitely there is.  After all - we are discussing ourselves.

 Sorry again for the screw up,
and Have a Merry Christmas everybody,

Timur