HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: feg@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (forrest.e.gehrke)
Subject: Re: RG 8 atten @ 20 Mhz?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:27:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.225506.2633@cbfsb.cb.att.com> wa2ise@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.f.casey) writes:
>>Another perspective, however, is to realize that -3dB is equal to
>>a power ratio of 1:2. In other words, 1/2 of the power that you
>>supply to the line is dissipated in the line as heat. So, 100W in,
>>50W heat, and 50W to the antenna.   de N6MZ
>
>But the other ham will only notice that your loss of that power looks
>like a half S unit in his reciever.  Probably not worth worrying
>about that much.  Besides, some loss in your coax will make
>your antenna's SWR look better, making the transmitter happier.
>If you replace the lossy coax with better stuff, expect that the SWR
>will look worse.  If you can load into it, don't worry too much, all
>the power will find its way out (though a bad SWR will multiply
>cable losses.  Suppose your coax system eats half the power.  A bad
>SWR could reflect say half the power delivered to the antenna back.
>you loose half the reflection on the trip back to the transmitter.  


You must be the optimistic type--you see a good side to every
drawback.

However, remember that the slightly higher SWR of a better cable
(as seen at the shack--you haven't changed the SWR of the load
one iota) still won't take the hit that the lossier cable would
due to SWR.

This factor of increased loss due to high SWR is not really 
significant until you get into the 5:1 SWR area.

Forrest Gehrke k2bt
From: thorn@wam.umd.edu (Greg Thornwall)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Installing 2m rig in 92 Toyota truck.
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:08:31 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park



I was thinking about installing a 2m (45w) rig in my 92 Toyota
truck. I know that there was something on the net awhile back about
someone having trouble with a 2m rig in a 92 Camry.  The repair
manual says not to equip the truck with a "powerful mobile radio".
I wonder what they mean by powerful? I hate to experiment with it
and have the computer get fried ($$). The dealer said that if I was
to install anything like a ham radio transceiver in the truck and
it did cause something to fail that it would not be covered by the
warranty.

Is anyone on the net using a 2m rig in a 1992 Toyota truck? 



BTW, here is what the Toyota repair manual says:

IF VEHICLE IS EQUIPPED WITH MOBILE RADIO SYSTEM (HAM, CB, ETC).

The ECU (Electronic Control Unit) has been designed so that it will
not be affected by outside interference. However, if your vehicle
is equipped with a amateur radio transceiver, etc. (even one with
apprx. 10W output), it may, at times, have an effect upon ECU
operation, especially if the antenna and feeder are installed
nearby. Therefore, observe the following precautions:

(a) Install the antenna as far away as possible from the ECU. The
engine (engine and ECT (Electronic Controlled Transmission) ) ECU
is located in the right side kick panel so the antenna should be
installed at the rear, left side of the vehicle.If installing on
the bumper, do so on the right side, if possible.

(b) Keep the antenna feeder as far away as possible from the ECU
wires  at least 20 cm (7.87 in.)  and, especially, do not wind them
together.

(c) Check that the feeder and antenna are properly adjusted. 

(d) Do not equip your vehicle with a powerful mobile radio system.


Thanks & 73's
                    --Greg  KD3SU    thorn@wam.umd.edu
From: tom@xn.ll.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: PL-259s on 9913 Coax
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:26:15 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA

In article <9208311905.AA00995@ucsd.edu> William=E.=Newkirk%Pubs%GenAv.Mlb@ns14.cca.CR.rockwell.COM writes:
>>Why do the antenna/equipment manufacturers continue to insist on putting
>>PL-259/SO-238 connectors on VHF/UHF antennas/equipment??
>> 
>>Why do they make a 10 dB gain UHF antenna then stick a UHF connector on it???
>> 
>>Pete Rossi - WA3NNA                  rossi@gvl.unisys.com
> 
>probably because N connectors are:
>
>	1)	Expensive
>	2)	Hard to find
>	3)	Hard to assemble
>	4)	Instructions missing in Now You're Talking (handbook too?).
>	5)	Not in the Amateur Radio Tradition (tm).
>	6)	?? add your own ??

----- (6)      NOT CALLED UHF CONNECTORS eventhough they are best there!



>8-\
>
>bill wb9ivr


                      bcnu tom-    K1KAY     tom@xn.ll.mit.edu
From: yee@mipgsun.mipg.upenn.edu (Conway Yee)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Need help identifying a manufacturer based on very little info
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:01:24 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


I heard from an acquaintance about some ham radio gear (probably HF)
which supposedly has RF performance which far outshines the big boys
(Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom, etc.)  You do not get all the bells and
whistles (e.g. the ability to automatically make coffee after the rig
senses that you have had a long night's contesting).  The cost of the
rig is about $1800.  Supposedly the manufacturer is based in
Washington (state, I think) and is a military contractor.  Apparently,
they got into financial difficulties and started making ham gear to
save the company.  They took all their experience making military gear
and put it into ham gear.  Does this ring any bells with anybody?



-- 
411 Blockley Hall      |                    Conway Yee, N2JWQ
418 Service Drive      | yee@ming.mipg.upenn.edu    (preferred)
Philadelphia, PA 19104 | cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (forwarded to above)
(215) 662-6780         |
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu
Subject: UHF TV channels
Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Organization: Pomona College
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:04:20 PDT

In article <10978@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu>, bill@prijat.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> How right you are.  Before detent-tuners, UHF tuners where nothing more than 
> a variable capacitor.  You could even tune in audio that didn't fall directly
> on the audio sub-carrier of the various UHF channels.

While we're coming up with trivia, I seem to remember (from reading old tv
repair books) that most UHF tuner were not variable capacitors but rather
permeability tuned units.

______________________________________________________________________________
Javier Henderson, N6VBG         | Beat the 55mph limit (legally):
jhenderson@pomona.claremont.edu | Learn to fly!
From: ehare@arrl.org (Ed Hare - KA1CV)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Installing 2m rig in 92 Toyota truck.
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:45:00 EDT
Organization: American Radio Relay League

In rec.radio.amateur.misc, thorn@wam.umd.edu (Greg Thornwall) writes:

>Is anyone on the net using a 2m rig in a 1992 Toyota truck? 

Oh, no! Here we go again. :-) :-)

All kidding aside, if you send me your postal address and a request
for our auto-rfi package AND the info from the Toyota file, I will
send it all right along to you.

>is equipped with a amateur radio transceiver, etc. (even one with
>apprx. 10W output), it may, at times, have an effect upon ECU

>(d) Do not equip your vehicle with a powerful mobile radio system.

I *guess* that this means >10 watts, but they are quite vague in their
description.

73 from ARRL HQ, Ed

-----
Ed Hare, KA1CV                  ehare@arrl.org
American Radio Relay League
225 Main St.
Newington, CT  06111            There is no limit to what you can 
(203) 666-1541 - voice          accomplish if you don't care who
ARRL Laboratory Supervisor      gets the credit. - Harry S Truman
RFI, xmtr and rcvr testing  
-----
From: bill@prijat.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Speaking Of Q-Codes...
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:47:53 GMT
Reply-To: bill@platypus.uofs.edu
Organization: University of Scranton, Scranton, PA

In article <179cdiINNk1h@stanley.cis.Brown.EDU>, robinson@porter.geo.brown.edu (Darrin Robinson) writes:
|> using Q codes... and I mean ham Q codes...
|> 

Hams have been responsible for a lot of things in common use today, but 
Q-codes isn't one of them.  Q (and Z) Signals were developed for/by the
Military and a complete list of them is contained in a JANAP (JAN = Joint
Army - Navy) publication.  My guess is they went to Q signals because there
actually is a published standard as opposed to 10-codes where there is a
plethora of published "standards".

All the best.

bill    KB3YV

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@platypus.uofs.edu   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     bill@tuatara.uofs.edu    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
From: zlau@arrl.org (Zack Lau)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: PL-259s on 9913 Coax
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:48:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: arrl.496
Organization: American Radio Relay League

In rec.radio.amateur.misc, rossi@gvlf9-q.gvl.unisys.com (Pete Rossi) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.131212.1923@biggus.moron.vware.mn.org> chrisc@biggus.moron.vware.mn.org (Chris Cox  W0/G4JEC) writes:
>>
>>Given that most people are going to be using 9913 at UHF frequencies, why
>>are you even considering using 5dB attenuators?
>>
>>It's like driving a Ferrari, and running it on prune juice...
>
>Why do the antenna/equipment manufacturers continue to insist on putting
>PL-259/SO-238 connectors on VHF/UHF antennas/equipment??

Comparing notes with other UHF+ types, the disadvantage is the mismatch,
which is often handled by the device with the "UHF" connector installed.
While I have melted cheap SO-239s, the loss of good UHF connectors at low 
frequencies (below 500 MHz) is probably under 0.1 dB.  At 432, the mismatch
results in a SWR of 1.5 to 1, if you stick them in a 50 ohm system.  These
comments are based on actual measurements, rather than theoretical analysis,
so your reality may differ.

So, if you are an equipment designer, leave them out.  Otherwise, you might
as well leave them in there unless you want to retune your UHF equipment to
account for the "missing" mismatch.  Four hole flange SO-239s and UG-58s
are physically interchangeable, so I put a UG-58 on my HW-9.  28 MHz isn't
high enough to necessitate retuning the rig.

BTW Pete--Mail to you has always bounced.  How about trying an email
to get path?


>Why do they make a 10 dB gain UHF antenna then stick a UHF connector on it???

Because amateurs who think they know how to install UHF connectors don't
want to learn how to install N connectors.  From our experience in forcing
people to deal with connectors in the ARRL lab.

Zack Lau  KH6CP/1

Internet: zlau@arrl.org           Busy building 10 GHz SSB/CW gear     
			          Operating Interests: 10 GHz CW/SSB/FM
US Mail: c/o ARRL Lab				       80/40/20 CW
	225 Main Street		  Station capability: QRP, 1.8 MHz to 10 GHz
	Newington CT  06111	               modes: CW/SSB/FM/packet
						      amtor/baudot
Phone (if you really have to): 203-666-1541
>
>=================================================================
>Pete Rossi - WA3NNA                  rossi@gvl.unisys.com
>
>Paramax Systems Corporation - a Unisys Company
>Electronic Systems - Valley Forge Labs - Paoli, Pennsylvania
>=================================================================
>
From: carrl@gordon-tsd1.army.mil (Mr Larry Carr)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Cellular Frequencies
Date: 29 Aug 1992 20:13:57 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

I was in K-Mart today and saw an off the wall brand TV, cheap,
has separate VHF and UHF channel dials.  The UHF dial goes up
to channel 83.
AA4DU
From: jerrys@captain.sbi.COM (Jerry Simonowits)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Alinco Phone Number
Date: 3 Sep 1992 05:36:58 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

=======================================================================
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:11:11 GMT
From: swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!devnull!barryc@network.UCSD.EDU
Subject: Alinco Phone #
To: info-hams@ucsd.edu

Hi net folk,

Does anyone have the telephone # for Alinco? I need to get my DJ-580 
repaired (vfo control is intermittent / fell 3 feet onto sidewalk /
happened 2 months ago, just acting up now).

TNX all,
-- 
Barry D. Chalcroft / N5NWI       Let`s start thinking about tomorrow...
EMAIL: barryc@mpd.tandem.com              *****************************  
       76500.2177@compuserve.com         ****   Clinton/Gore `92  ****               barryc@cactus.org	        *****************************
                          	              	


====================================================================

The phone number for Alinco is: (213) 618-8616



Jerry Simonowits
Salomon Inc.
Internet Planning
Systems Engineering
Phone:  201-896-7330
Email:  jerrys@canada.sbi.com		
(KB2GCG,AFA1CM)
From: rflukes@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Richard F. Lukes)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: WANTED: ROM code for Sep/92 QST article
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:17:45 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

September's QST features an excellent article on building a T.I. 32010
digital signal processor board.  The article mentions that 32010 source
code and Intel format hexadecimal file will be made available on CompuServe
and some BBS's.  Would anyone have copies of these files which they could
make available via anonymous FTP, or post them here?

Thanks,
          Rich, VE4AIV

P.S.  If there is a DSP-specific newsgroup I am not aware of it.

-- 
Richard F. Lukes                    rflukes@ccu.UManitoba.CA
Computer Science Department         (or rflukes@ccm.UManitoba.CA)
University of Manitoba
WORK: (204)-474-8696                HOME: (204)-257-6701
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: sdkuo@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Steve Kuo)
Subject: Icom 2410 Mods Please
Reply-To: sdkuo@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:35:08 GMT

Could someone please email me the out-of-band mods for the Icom 2410.
I'm interested in any modification possible including 800 and air receive.
Thanks in advance,

Steve Kuo, N8OPH, sdkuo@oakland.edu
Xref: sparky rec.radio.amateur.misc:14528 rec.radio.amateur.packet:2275
From: mancus@norm.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,rec.radio.amateur.packet
Subject: Rose
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:11:42 GMT
Followup-To: rec.radio.amateur.packet
Distribution: na
Organization: nasa-jsc


  Am I the only person out there who has given up on Rose in
frustration?  Several folks out there suggested using Rose as
part of a link, but I have had maybe one in ten successful connects.
Worse, the connection often dies very quickly after being made.
Am I overlooking some trick, or just using Rose for something for which
it was not intended?
  This applies to the Shreveport, Dallas, and Houston Rose sites.
Note that I cannot hit *any* of these without going thru a node or
digipeater.

-- 
| Keith Mancus    <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>                         |
|                 N5WVR                                                  |
|  "If I owned Texas and I owned Hell, I'd rent out Texas and live       |
|  in Hell." -General Sheridan                                           |
From: WALKER@twu.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: subscribe info-hams
Date: 2 Sep 1992 08:19:19 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

subscribe info-hams
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
From: dearnsha@wizard.worldbank.org
Subject: Re: Kenwood Service SUCKS!!!
Organization: The World Bank
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:37:12 GMT

Another Kenwood story...

When I originally came over from the U.K. I brought with me a Kenwood TW4000
dual-bander. Prior to leaving the U.K., I modified the VHF section to
cover the U.S. allocation, but unfortunately didn't have enough info
to mod the UHF section. On arriving in the U.S. I contacted Kenwood
in California, and was curtly told that they would not modify the
transceiver because it was "FCC Typed equipment", and modification would
illegal - I was actually trying to make the transceiver legal, instead of
it transmitting 10 Mhz out of the 440 allocation!

Finally, I contacted Japan, and they sent me a handwritten modification
sheet. I had a local dealer do the mods, and lo and behold - I now
have a transceiver that tunes the correct 440 band. Unfortunately, I
now get zero watts out on 440 - because the RF section needs re-aligning.
ergo - one (half) useless dual-bander.

Questions:

(1) Was the "FCC Typed equipment" just a smoke screen that Kenwood put
    forward because they caouldn't be bothered working on non-US
    transceiver, or is there some truth in this statement? (I asked
    a friend who works for the FCC - a lawyer no less - who said there
    shouldn't be a problem.)

(2) Should I send the radio to Kenwood for re-alignment? (Fortunately, it's
    a spare, so I can afford to wait a couple of years to get it back.)

-- Darrell NR3Y/G4MZF
From: lairdpg@lub001.lamar.edu
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for PC-morse code program
Date: 27 Aug 1992 20:49:57 GMT
Organization: Lamar University - Beaumont

In article <1992Aug27.195550.13231@exu.ericsson.se>, exubern@exu.ericsson.se (Bernie Meier) writes:
> 
> Does any one know of a good PC morse code program?
> I have a friend who is doing-it-himself and would
> like to get the Morse part over with before taking any
> HAM classes.
> 
> You can post to this group or mail me: exubern@exu.ericsson.se.

I have several programs available for download.  The program Super Morse is
really nice!  It is available in the HAM Files area of my Server.  Login at
2400 Baud/n/8/1 parms and hit "F" at the main Menu command prompt.  Then, hit
n for new scan of files and change directory (area) to HAM Files area.
download SM316.ZIP  There are other morse code programs and you will be able
to list programs and get a description of the contents of each program.

The HAM Connection is for all Amateurs and others interested.  If you don't
have an amateur callsign, just enter your first and last name at logon instead
of callsign and first name.  All new users  get complete download access to all
ham areas first call. 

The HAM Connection (409)833-1795 Sysop: Grady Laird/N5UYH 24 hours operation.
From: n7949188@henson.cc.wwu.edu (John Hatten)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Yaesu FT-470 HT reprogramming
Summary: Query: How is the FT470 programmed?
Keywords: Yaesu, FT-470, programming
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:49:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Aug27.074919.23664
Organization: Western Washington University


  I have had my FT-470 for about a year and a half and discovered early on,
with random playing around that I could get it to receive on freqencies that
it "isn't supposted to".  As a member of several public service agencies
(vounteer fire, EMT, and mountain rescue) I've enjoyed being able to receive
channels that might otherwise be unaccessable to me.
  But I don't know what exactly I did.  It does make me intrigued...  Is it
possible to reprogram the 470 to receive and transmit on other frequencies?
MARS, CAP, etc.?  Do you know how, or know how I could find out?  I'm afraid
to mess with mine now without guideance because I'm so happy with what I've
got, I wouldn't want to mess it up.  Thanks!
				John N7BWX
From: gavron@spades.aces.com (Ehud Gavron 602-570-2000 x. 2546)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for a _really_ feature-packed handheld dual bander
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:40:00 GMT
Reply-To: gavron@ACES.COM
Organization: ACES Consulting Inc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Aug31.215422.29063@engage.pko.dec.com>, 
gettys@regent.enet.dec.com (Bob Gettys) writes...
#
#[quoting me]
#>	- Odd splits on at least 20 memories, with the offset between
#>	  TX and RX varying from a multiple of 5KHz to 10KHz (the W2A
#>	  does not allow a 5KHz offset from RX/TX)
# 
# 
#	Mine does. I've done the expanded freq mods (those tiny diodes) and
#don't know if it is related, but it does work. You need to set the tuning speed
#to the appropriate step first. Then you can change the offset appropriately.

Let me rephrase.  The W2A doesn't give one "odd splits" as much as it
allows variable repeater offset on duplex channels.  The offset, however
is in terms of X.XXMHz, so that it can go from 0.00 - n.90 in steps of .01M
or 10KHz.

In other words, if the input frequency ends with a 5, so will the output
frequency.  One can't set an input frequency of 146.455 and output 147.400
since that would require a units (5Khz) digit on the offset which just isn't
there.

So far the only HT to fit the requirements appears to be the TH78.  Three
people mentioned it to me, with John Steele N5ZKC (JFS4892@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU)
and Bob Kupiec N3MML (kupiec@hp800.lasalle.edu) giving me complete 
information.

I'll know Thursday for sure.  When I get it :)

#	/s/	Bob Gettys  N1BRM

Ehud  n5neq

--
Ehud Gavron        (EG76)     
gavron@aces.com
From: ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Re: CC&R Contingencies, any advice?
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:37:26 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

> I am about to start bidding on a house; though I think the property is
> old enough to have no CC&Rs at all, does anyone have any advice for
> how to phrase a CC&R Contingency Clause to put in the Offer to Purchase? 

The problem is going to be that someone is going to have to actually
verify that there are none (one the sale goes through, unless the
seller knew of one and hid the fact from you, you have no recourse).
You can put anything in the purchase offer, but I'd suggest it's most
likely to be received by the seller if you 1) put a precise timelimit
on the contingency and 2) make it specific.  For example:

This contract is contingent on a investigation to determine that 
there is no Covenent or Deed Restriction that would prohibit the
construction of an XX' amateur radio tower on the premises.  This
investigation shall be concluded within thirty days of the acceptance
of the offer.

As a seller (unless I was really, really, desperate) I would NEVER
accept a contingency (mortgage, inspection, ..) without a firm date
and cause.

-Ron
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc,alt.folklore.urban
From: IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (macphil)
Subject: Re: Cellular Frequencies
Organization: IUPUI
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 00:04:53 GMT

In article <l9qcl7INNkvl@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>
geoffm@purplehaze.Corp.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) writes:
 
>
>
>In article <1992Aug27.013721.22282@engage.pko.dec.com> moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>beyond 60 in the first place.  And I know for a fact that I've never
>heard of a UHF station higher than 54 (the local UHF PBS affiliate).
>
 
and you've never seen a wristwatch that has moving hand either, right?
 
there are three stations i can receive here in Central Indiana
> 54:  WFFT-TV (independent) in Ft. Wayne (ch. 55); WXIN-TV (ch. 59 - Fox)
(Indianapolis); and WIIB (ch. 63) from Bloomington.
From: itsmagic@iinus1.ibm.com (Wayne G. Namerow)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Optoelectronics/Startek
Date: 2 Sep 1992 16:37:50 -0700
Organization: UCSD Usenet Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

retzer@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Joe J Retzer) writes:

>I was considering the purchase of a frequency counter and had
>narrowed it down to 2 models:

>	  (1) Optoelectronics Model 2810, Sale Price $199.00
>	  (2) Startek BG-15, Sale Price $169.95

Piece of useless trivia: The original Opto Freq Counters were designed
by Fred Huft (If I recall his name correctly). The company Optoelectronics
was started with Huft and his wife as partners. Opto was doing really well
when husband and wife decided to divorce... The wife got (and still has)
Opto, The husband went off and started Startek. Thats why you will find the
design of each companies product amazingly similar and competition fierce.
                                                 -Wayne    N2MCM