HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sheldon@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Roger Sheldon - AISS)
Subject: Re: TV coverage (Was: Cook blows British Open)
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 14:13:56 GMT

In article <92Jul20.195336edt.230@smoke.cs.toronto.edu> enenkel@cs.toronto.edu (Robert Frederick Enenkel) writes:
>nelson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mike Nelson) writes:
>
>>I found another thing disappointing. In previous Opens we've 
>>been treated to the BBC's coverage. This year it was the network
>>coverage and it was quite sad by comparison. You get to see the
>>top 4 or 5 competitors most of the time. A lot of closeups
>>(who cares) of their faces and lengthy delays while we wait for 
>>putts. 
>
>I'm glad to hear someone else thinks so too.  I just started watching golf,
>but I thought the TV coverage was generally crap.  I'm going to watch the
>Canadian Open in person - hope that's better than the TV.  

I agree.  In addition to improving the format of the coverage, the
networks should take polls on what announcers people like.  I personally
thought Jim McKay's comments were pathetic -- he obviously doesn't know
much about the game.  

Roger

From: jasonc@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Jason Chodora)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:44:42 GMT
Subject: Re: average club hitting distances
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf

In rec.sport.golf, ewolfe@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (eric andrew wolfe) writes:

    Just out of curiosity, when people say "I hit my 5 iron about 175
    yards," are they talking about on the fly, or are they including roll
    (i.e., the total distance of the shot)?


I think when people talk about distances on irons, they are referring to
shots hit into a green.  These shots will land with spin and hopefully
stop with very little roll.  If the shots land on a hard fairway, the
bounce and roll will add some distance.

Jason
jasonc@sr.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Re: What's a flyer lie?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:26:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <DRG.92Jul24153447@bubba.ma30.bull.com> drg@bubba.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R Guilderson) writes:

>In article <1992Jul23.173924.15140@infonode.ingr.com> jim@dap.b29.ingr.com (Jim Weeks) writes:

>	[stuff deleted]
>	because of the grass and the water the grooves on the club
>	face do not get a firm grip on the ball thus reducing its
>	backspin resulting in something like a knuckleball

>Didn't someone post a message to this group just a week ago claiming
>that the backspin is the key to distance?  If that be the case, a ball
>with negligible backspin due to grass and water in the grooves would
>travel less distance than a normal shot.  Are you sure the effect
>isn't the exact opposite?  i.e. the grass and water put more spin on?
>Or maybe the other factors overwhelm backspin in a shot out of the
>rough?  I'm confused.

Time to further muddy the waters...

The significance of a flier lie is indeed that it is more difficult
to properly strike the ball with a descending blow that pinches the
ball between clubface and turf.  (It is this pinching actions that
generates backspin.)  The result is the ball's trajectory is greatly
changed, from the desireable out-and-high then almost straight down,
to one more resembling a football pass.

Because a ball hit from a flier lie tends to have more forward momentum
when it hits the ground, it "bites" less and can careen many tens of 
yards further forward.  In some respects, this is desireable for us
hacks, but it's of no value to the pros, who have all the distance they
need and so value control.

And no, backspin is not a key to distance.  Consider that the backspin
*decreases* as you move up the clubs, from wedge to driver.  Backspin
is, rather, a key to control.

-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Rules, Rules and more Rules
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:02:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Jul31.020928.7458@nas.nasa.gov> dking@raul.nas.nasa.gov (Dan King) writes:

>match just a couple dollar nassau.  I was preparing to putt and I
>accidentally got to close to the ball during my practice swing routine.
>I just clipped the ball with my putter and it moved a few feet.  I
>picked up the ball and replaced it.  I then made the putt.  We got to
>[...]
>Rule 18 is Ball Moved, deflected or stopped.
>
>18-2.  By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment.
>
>a. GENERAL
>
>When a player's ball is in play, if:
>
> (i) the player, his partner, or either of their caddies lifts or
> moved it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of
> addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, 
>
>or
>
> (ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
>the player shall incur a penalty stroke.  The ball shall be replaced
>unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun his
>swing and he does not discontinue his swing.
>[...]
>So the question is, was I mistaken that if you hit the ball during a
>practice swing there is no penalty?  Sometimes you hear these sort of
>things from someone and end up accepting them as fact when they are
>not.  Am I missing something?

I added a bit of white space to make the answer stand out...

The answer to your question is covered in ii.  Your equipment caused
the ball to move.  It applies to your situation.  One stroke and
replace the ball.

BTW this is the reason that pros take their practice swings a good 
six inches or more away from their ball while it's in play.  A
pretty good habit to get into...


-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
From: ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Yet Another Rules Question
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:09:25 GMT
Organization: Open Software Foundation

In article <24206@castle.ed.ac.uk>, cs@met.ed.ac.uk (C Smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Jul27.175022.19696@chiton.ucsd.edu>, martin@chiton.ucsd.edu (Martin Olivera) writes:
|> |> Since we're in the subject of whats' fair and what's unfair, here's my
|> |> question. Actually in this situation a rule was broken, although there was
|> |> no intention. So my real question is: up to what point intention becomes part
|> |> of the rule?
|> |> 
|> |> This happened to a player in my foursome in a tournament a few months back:
|> |> 
|> |> We were on the tee of a 200-yds par-3. Player (A) hit a wood off the
|> |> tee to the middle of the green. A second player (B), who had been praising 
|> |> player A's ability with that "fairway" wood, out of curiosity asked A whether
|> |> it was a 4 or a 5 wood. Now, (I knew that) player B's intentions were purely to
|> |> satisfy his curiosity as to the club, and never meant to seek advice as to what
|> |> club to use. The third player in our group (C) demanded that B took a 2-stroke
|> |> penalty for seeking advice. After swearing that he didn't intend to break the
|> |> rule, B reluctantly took the penalty (for a moment I was in the middle and all
|> |> I could say was for B to play 2 balls and ask the "rules committee" for a ruling
|> |> after the round). Things to keep in mind: B had already a club in his hand
|> |> (a 3-iron, which he eventually used). I truly believed him when he said he was 
|> |> not seeking advice. Player C argued that even though it was not B's intention to
|> |> seek advice, by knowing what club A used he "knew" what type of shot was needed
|> |> (either consciously or sub-consciously).
|> |> 
|> |> Was this ruling correct? Since B took the penalty we never went to the comittee.
|> 
|>   No.  The correct procedure is to call player C a big girl's blouse, ram the 3 
|> iron up his arse, ditch his rule book in the nearest lateral water hazard (within
|> two club lenghts if possible and in any case no nearer the hole) and get on with the
|> golf.
|> 
  Hey, Cambell - lighten up!! What's the problem?? I'm on your side if these
  were social players - but it was in a TOURNAMENT!!! You must play golf by
  the rules in tournaments!! If you aren't in a tournament than it doesn't
  matter - you can carry 20 clubs in your bag and you can take back shots and
  use preferred lies and ask for and give advice. But NOT IN TOURNAMENTS!!

-Ron "if you play by the rules you are really playing golf" Birnbaum





|> 
|> -- 
|> ----------------------
|>  Campbell Smith      
|>  remote sensing
|>  edinburgh university
|>  cs@uk.ac.ed.met     
|>                      
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com (Christopher Gattuso)
Subject: Ruling Question -- THANKS!!!!
Organization: Motorola
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:07:51 GMT

Thanks to everyone who responded!!!!  I appreciate it!!!

Real outcome:  I should have lost the hole.  I gave the club back, but it 
was "I-bet-you-can't-do-this" type situations that you don't see on the
tour except in practice rounds. The $12, and eventual $45, is in my pocket
already.  I had a feeling, I was wrong, but if my friends allow they would
be embarassed if I gave it back.....what great friends!!!!

Thanks again, and Martin Olivera, I do own a rule book, it is my third.
In competetion, a fellow golfer tore my first one up, because I quoted a 
rule he broke, and my second was soaked from a rain round.  So, I only carry 
it when I play in league and tourneys.  Otherwise, it is at home. I also
wanted to hear what everyone thought.

==========================================================================  
Christopher Gattuso			

gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com
Motorola, Inc.
Schaumburg, Illinois

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president,
 and that one word is 'to be prepared'."
                -- Vice President Dan Quayle
==========================================================================
From: ethan@earl.scd.ucar.edu (Ethan Alpert)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Hole Rating and Handicap question
Summary: Question
Date: 28 Jul 92 23:11:32 GMT
Followup-To: rec.sport.golf
Distribution: usa
Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO


Given my new found understanding of handicapping, thanks to the net, I have
a question. It would appear that rating the holes on a course from 1 to 18
would have no useful purpose. The don't figure in to the handicap or calculation
of net score.

So my question is why are holes individually ranked?

	-ethan 

--
Ethan Alpert  internet: ethan@ncar.ucar.edu | Standard Disclaimer:
Scientific Visualization Group,             | I represent myself only.
Scientific Computing Division               |-------------------------------
National Center for Atmospheric Research, PO BOX 3000, Boulder Co, 80307-3000
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: john@sequent.com (John Vander Borght)
Subject: Re: Ruling Question -- THANKS!!!!
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Distribution: sqnt
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:15:45 GMT

gattuso@ssd.comm.mot.com (Christopher Gattuso) writes:

>Thanks to everyone who responded!!!!  I appreciate it!!!

>Real outcome:  I should have lost the hole.  I gave the club back, but it 
>was "I-bet-you-can't-do-this" type situations that you don't see on the
>tour except in practice rounds. The $12, and eventual $45, is in my pocket
>already.  I had a feeling, I was wrong, but if my friends allow they would
>be embarassed if I gave it back.....what great friends!!!!

>Thanks again, and Martin Olivera, I do own a rule book, it is my third.
>In competetion, a fellow golfer tore my first one up, because I quoted a 
>rule he broke, and my second was soaked from a rain round.  So, I only carry 
>it when I play in league and tourneys.  Otherwise, it is at home. I also
>wanted to hear what everyone thought.

One thing no one (including myself) mentioned was that if you were playing
in match play (and it sounds like you were) and none of you opponents objected
to the illegal play at the time or when they first found out about it, there is
no penalty.  Match play is based on the premise that the opponent must
object when the violation occurs or they become aware of it.

For example, if I'm in a bunker and I touch the sand with my club before my
shot and my opponent sees it and doesn't say anything, then after I win the
hole, he tries to claim it because of that, it is too late.  But, if I
touch the sand and he doesn't see it.  Then, I hit a great bunker shot and
after winning the hole, he compliments me on my sand shot and I say that is
because I have found a new way to hit shots out of the bunker and it is a lot
easier if you ground your club, he could then claim the hole.

In this case, it sounds like they did object right away (I remember you
saying they complained after you hit the shot well), but they also did lend
you the club so they really probably didn't have good cause to complain.

John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
-- 
"Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!"
John Vander Borght
john@sequent.com
From: ckuznia@phakt.usc.edu ( Ckuznia)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Slow Play Penalty
Date: 21 Jul 1992 08:47:25 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

I caught the ending of Saturday's Senior Tourney and there was a slow
play penalty given to three players.  Did anyone see this?  What
happened?

Charlie Kuznia

Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: sercely@convex.com (Ron Sercely)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Rules Question
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:24:43 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <30JUL199215221796@reg.triumf.ca> brash@reg.triumf.ca (BRASH, ED) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.191034.24753@osf.org>, ron@osf.org (Ron Birnbaum) writes...
>>In article <1992Jul28.163942.27215@convex.com>, sercely@convex.com (Ron Sercely) writes:
>>|> >|> 
>>|> >|> Would it be any different if B asked the question after he (and
>>|> >|> everyone else) had completed their shots?  Would the advice help
>>|> >|> further along in the round?
>>|> >
>>|> >  No - you can't ask for advice from your opponent - anytime during the round!!
>>|> >
>>|> >
>>|> >-Ron Birnbaum
>>|> 
>>|> I think you got this one wrong Ron.  It is true that you can never ask or give
>>|> advice during a round, but this situation is NOT advice.
>> 
>>  Ahhh - I guess I'm glad I called the USGA for a free copy of the rules!!
>>  You have to study the rules to be able to play by the rules - and not
>>  playing by the rules isn't really playing golf!
>> 
>>|> Rule 8 defines advice as follows:
>>|> "Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in
>>|> determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
>>|> 
>>|> After both players have hit, they may discuss club selection to their hearts
>>|> content because it CANNOT influence the shot which just occured.  However, if
>>|> there were a third player who had not hit who could overhear them, I would deem
>>|> that they would both be guilty of giving advice.
>>|> 
>>|> Note that the definition says "could" influence.  Any reasonable possibility of
>>|> influencing is consisdered advice, like:
>>|> Sure is a strong wind in our face.
>>|> Boy that looks like a fast put.
>>|> Etc.
>> 
>>  I sit corrected! Thank you!
>> 
>>-Ron
>> 
>> 
>>|> Ron Sercely
>
>Don't give up so easily, Ron, I am not convinced that you were wrong.
>For example, Player A could have say played a high five wood to the
>green, which Player B knows is about 200 yards away.  Player B, not
>knowing how much his ball will be affected by the wind, decides to 
>play a knockdown 3 iron and keep it out of the wind.  After the hole
>he asks Player A what he played, and thereby can gain some insight on
>how the wind is going to affect a high wood shot, which he may have
>to hit later on in the round.  
>
>What do you think ?
>
>Later,
>Ed.
>
>
>


It really is pretty clear Ed.

Decision 8-1/6
Q. During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he had used for a shot at
the 4th hole.  Was A in breach of rule 8-1.
A. No.

Decision 8-1/7
Q. A plays his second shot which lands on the green.  B does likewise.  A then
asks B what club he used for his second shot.  Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?
A. No.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: gandalf@fnalo.fnal.gov
Subject: Golf Leagues
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:12:31 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

        I have a couple of questions for those who play in "leagues". I
        play in a couple of leagues where I work and I am a scorekeeper for
        one of them. I was wondering what kind of formula do you use to
        calculate handicaps and how do you handle no-shows? We play a 9 hole
        league.

        What we do for handicap is take the current 4 scores drop the high,
        average the 3, and the handicap is 80% of the difference between
        the average and par. For no-shows we give the no-show their average
        and add 1 stroke to his/her opponent's handicap. A tie counts as a
        victory.
					Thanks, Steve Baginski

Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante)
Subject: Re: cook blows the open
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:40:19 GMT

In <1992Jul21.184556.19469@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> scramer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steve K Cramer) writes:

>Why did Cook only play in two British opens in the last 12 years?

Dunno. I just recall reading an article about Cook and the pain he has been
suffering on his wrists. A few years back, he has been bothered by an
inflamed wrist. HE went to doctors who said he couldn't be helped. Then he went
to a certain doctor who diagnosed his problem differently from the other
doctors, prescribed some kind of surgery/therapy and that, according to
Cook himself, really lifted him back into his game. Result was that he won
a couple of tourneys this year as well as a more consistent game.

I guess if your chipping needs some help, don't see a pro - go see a doctor.
From: n4hy@idacrd.UUCP (Bob McGwier)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Survey of Good Golf Instruction Books
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:13:42 GMT
Organization: idacrd, princeton, nj

From article <1992Jul24.191612.23406@cs.brown.edu>, by kmc@cs.brown.edu (Ken Curewitz):
> 
> -- 
> What are your opinions on good books on golf?
>

I am a real fan of Leadbetter's The Golf Swing.  I have saved more strokes
however by looking, listening to, and following the advice in his short
game video.  I started playing golf when I was 36 and in two years have
gotten down to 12 handicap on my course (71.2/123) and the club champion
regularly asks me for sand instruction.  The only reason I am not lower is
I cannot read greens.  I regularly putt, pitch, or chip to six feet and
miss. It is pretty disgusting to watch a nearly perfect game from tee to
green fouled up with the flat blade.  Leadbetter has the book and two video
tapes.  They are all worth having.

Bob
From: ilh@lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: Ruling Question
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:31:49 GMT
Reply-To: ilh@lcs.mit.edu
Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems

Rule 4-4a states:

The addition or replacement of a club or clubs may not be made by
borrowing any club selected for play by any other person playing on the
course.

...still sounds pretty impressive...maybe you should carry one
right-handed club in your bag for occasions like this (up to a maximum
of 14, of course)...
--

--Lee Hetherington
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
From: enenkel@cs.toronto.edu (Robert Frederick Enenkel)
Subject: greenhorn (not) learning to swing
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:32:41 GMT

I am somewhat exasperated.  Think back to when you picked up a golf
club for the first time in your life.  How long did it take you before
you could hit the ball reliably, say half the time.  I don't mean hit
it far, or hit it straight, or (heaven forbid!) with some particular
spin.  Just a solid, clean hit.  If you say it took you five years,
then I'll just pack it in right now and save myself a lot of grief.

I came into possession of a #3 wood about a month ago.  I got myself
Tom Watson's book "Getting Back to Basics".  I followed the nice
pictures of how to hold the club, and started to practice hitting
whiffle balls off a tee.  I tried almost every evening.  I still can't
do it.  About one in twenty swings connect with a satisfying "crack", and 
the ball soars high and far.  What a joyous feeling!  But more often I
skim the top of the ball and send it tearing 6 feet through the grass,
or hit it with the heel of the club or the toe and send it off at 45
degrees, or miss the ball altogether.  Can you imagine how depressing
it is?

I thought what I'd do is learn to hit whiffle balls reliably, and then
find a driving range and get some instruction on real balls.  But how
can I go to a driving range when I can't even get the club on the ball?
How shameful.  I have a friend who golfs, and when I told him my problem
he offered to sell me a "nice persimmon driver" for $200!  I can't imagine
that is my problem though.  I'm sure Arnold Palmer wouldn't have any
trouble hitting whiffle balls with my humble #3 wood, old and disheveled 
as it is.  Any words of wisdom?

Robert Enenkel
From: sheldon@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Roger Sheldon - AISS)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: How to pull out the flagstick....
Date: 25 Jul 92 14:59:24 GMT
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center

In article <1992Jul24.161711.29287@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> scramer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steve K Cramer) writes:
>In article <BrwErJ.H26@acsu.buffalo.edu> v5875bza@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Michae
>l M Gorman Jr) writes:
>>Flagsticks are flexible, so how I pull the stick out of the hole
>>in a case where my ball is resting against it can determine whether
>>the ball falls in or not.
>>
>>OK, all you righteous golfers, is it against the True Spirit of
>>The Game o' Golf to deliberately pull the stick back away from the ball
>>to encourage the ball to fall in?

The rules of golf are sometimes unfair.  I don't know about this
stick-pulling issue, but it seems that a ball resting against
the flag should be good regardless of whether it falls in
when the stick is pulled.

And how about this girl in the US Women's Open who got cheated
out of a stroke by a stupid, unfair rule.  I don't know her
name, but she mistakenly tapped the ball while setting up
her putt -- she, of course, took the one stroke penalty.
But after finishing the round, the officials slapped her
with a second penalty stroke for not replacing the ball
to where it was before she accidentally hit it.

That's totally unfair.  What possible advantage could there
be to leaving the ball where she accidentally hit it?  She
already got penalized one stroke.

Roger
From: elw@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Eddie Williamson)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:27:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Survey of Good Golf Instruction Books
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO