HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: The camps were GERMAN camps, not Polish
Date: 8 Sep 92 23:03:10 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.

In article <1992Sep8.174410.26385@nntp.nta.no> stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.170659.1822@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, 
>azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>|> (...) The rest of Germans (probably 1%) were looking
>|> with the very admiration to what those "German Nazis" (99%) were doing
>|> to your fellow countrymen. They were Nazis, they are Nazis (have a look
>|> at what is going on in GDR) and they will remain Nazis. If you want to
>|> make sure about it, have your vacations there. Sorry.
>|> 
>|> Andrzej Zaleski 
>
>Uwazaj, chlopczyku, Zly Niemiec slyszy.

Gratuluje znajomosci polskiego. Niestety nie moge sie zrewanzowac po
niemiecku. Coz moge powiedziec, bardzo dobrze, ze slyszy. Powinien to
sluchac tak dlugo, az zrozumie. Tak to wyglada z zewnatrz.  

>If you want to get a less biased view,
>have a look at the ongoing discussion in soc.culture.german
>about the riots in Rostock (in German, unfortunately).
>Everybody there feels very much shocked by what's going on.
>Or post your vacation experiences there.
>If you cut out the generalizations,
>nobody will even flame you.

1. Well, why do you expect me to "cut out the generalizations" ? If I am
being called an "anti-semite" for what your predecessors were doing in
Poland, why not you, being called... ? I fully realize this kind of
analogy leads to nowhere, but anyway it is being used all the time
during this discussion.

2. I have some very mixed emotions when listening to a German voice on
this topic. I wonder what others feel ?

Andrzej Zaleski
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:42:09 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Sep11.022404.8053@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:

>Gas chambers, crematoriums and ramps could be bombed without greater loss 
>of life as if it would still function.

UNfortunately allies didn't have smart bombs.
--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania |Due to circumstances beyond
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter |your control, you're master of 
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                |your fate and captain of your soul
From: tony2@prefect.uucp (21131-gozdz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Information regarding Polish firms wanted ?
Date: 6 Sep 92 17:17:07 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ

In article <x9nnw9#.sunil@netcom.com> sunil@netcom.com (SUNIL DHINGRA) writes:
>
>Hi,
>
>I work for a Hong Kong based trading company and was trying to develop
>trade with Polish companies in consumer electronics and computer products.
>In an effort to do this I will be spending a month in Poland in October.
>
>I was wondering if readers of this net could give me general information
>as to where I could obtain a list of companies in Poland involved in this
>business; how I could establish contact with them; are there any government
>or private agencies in Poland which do consulting with foreign firms to help
>them with there business, etc., ?
>
> Any information will be appreciated .
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sunil
>408-971-6388

Sunil,
your area code indicates that you live/work in the Bay
Area. I'd suggest you go to the nearest Polish store/travel
agency (there are a few in SF) and buy a weekly
(Polityka comes to mind, since they run quite a few ads
for businesses like yours) or a newspaper FROM Poland.

You might also contact the Consulate of Poland in SF;
they should have such information. But be forewarned,
you'll find plenty of competition there in your field,
you're 4-5 years too late :-(.

Tony
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Antoni S. Gozdz                tel  (908) 758-2931  |  Bellcore  NVC 3X-261
tony2@prefect.cc.bellcore.com  FAX  (908) 741-2891  |  Red Bank, NJ 07701, USA
                           no .sig, strictly business
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Organization: CSIRO DIT (Melb.)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 02:24:04 GMT


In article <1992Sep10.165003.9799@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep10.060031.19658@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:
|> 
|> Now, as for bombing the camp, this might also have caused great loss of
|> life to the prisoners there at the time.  

Gas chambers, crematoriums and ramps could be bombed without greater loss 
of life as if it would still function.

|> 
|> >The other example was of the Rabbi of Buda or Pest, who was informed by 
|> >Home Army intelligence, via Slovakia, of the largely extended barracks, 
|> >new ramps and crematoriums in Aushwitz, in preparation for Jews of Hungary.
|> 
|> >He did nothing to inform or worn his fellow religious brothers.
|> >If I remember well he was tried later in Israel. 
|> 
|> So what's your question?  (Also, I suspect you could look these things
|> up.)

You could look those things up as well, that was my intention.
|> 
|> 
|> >Apparently there was only *ONE* demonstration (N.Y.C.?) 
|> >against extermination of Jews of Eastern Europe. 
|> 
|> Um, remind me -- whom should the American Jews have demonstrated
|> *against*?  The empty German consulate?  It's not as though there
|> was a German CNN in those days  that would have let anyone 
|> responsible *see* such a demonstration.  

Um, tell me what the peasent had to do. Take a shovel and cut across the 
electrified barbed wire in Aushwitz?

There are all sorts of difficulties.
|> 
|> The first news of the death camps did not reach the US public until 1943.

Now tell me how is this possible. So many exterminated 
Jews had families in the US. And as you say they "The extermination of 
Jews began in mid-1941, around the time of the 
invasion of the SU."
|> 
|> 
|> Nor is a desperate attempt to pin blame for the Holocaust on its victims.
-------------------------------- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Roger

Roger, 

THIS IS UTMOST NONSENS! 

Read what is written and not what you would like it to be.

Marek

--
*  Dr Marek T. Michalewicz                                                    *
*  Supercomputing Support Group, Division of Information Technology, CSIRO    *
*  723 Swanston Street, Carlton, Victoria 3053, Australia                     *
*  *tel: +61 3 282 2621 *Fax: +61 3 282 2600  *e-mail: marek@mel.dit.csiro.au *
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lenivch@maclaurin.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 16:10:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.233347.20184@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>b) What would *you* say about Weiss?  Is he indeed an enemy of Poles
>everywhere?  I'd say his quarrel is with the Polish Catholic Church
>and its policies, and their support from the government.  In general,
>I suspect he doesn't care one way or the other about Poland and Poles 
>in general.  

I don't know about Weiss, but his attorney, Alan Dershowitz went as far
as suggesting that child theft was common in Poland. In his book "Chutzpah"
he claims his grandfather was afraid of his child  being stolen from a 
maternity ward. Dershowitz claims (guesses?) this was because of his 
grandfather's experience in Poland. Now, surely he doesn't suggest it
was Jews who were stealing the children!
If Dershowitz isn't a Poland-hater then he's paranoid at the very least.

Witold Biedrzycki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: (Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity) AND Glemp's tolerance
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:44:34 CDT


In article <1992Sep13.203523.143331@ua1ix.ua.edu> lnieplo3@ua1ix.ua.edu (Jaroslaw Nieplocha) writes:
>
>
>
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Why not ?
>
>It is a topic more suited for another group. But, when principles
>of a religion lack tolerance and understanding
>   ^
>(to which you refer as liberalism) and love (can it exist when the
>other two don't ?) it usually divides and antagonizes people.
>
>
Simply because you can meet people like you in social clubs, liberal
parties and you do not have to deal with religion for that. Every religion
tells you something about requirements imposed on believers and
followers. So you cannot expect that every religion will meet
just your expectations. E.g. you wanted Catholic church to support
abortions and it is just opposite - Catholic church defines
beginning of human life at the conception and therefore abortion
is just the killing. By the way, I would be interested how Jewish
religion defines beginning of human life.

>
>No, I know only fragments of some. My impressions (about tolerance)
>were based upon them. However, it seems that there are others who
>felt this way. Specificaly, these fragments about dealing with people
>infected with AIDS are very controversial.
>
So I would suggest to read entire sermons and then draw any conclusion.
After homily of Cardinal Glemp that I heard in which he described
action taken by Rabbi Weiss I saw people in American mass media taking some
sentences from that homily and calling him Goebels. Believe me,
I felt more compassion for them than for Cardinal, I felt really sorry
for them because of their way of thinking and their hatred they
expressed then.
>
>
>Are you saying that CODE OF ETHICS of a religion does not apply
>when dealing with people, organizations, or religions other than yours?
>It is sad ...
>
>Jarek Nieplocha
>
>
No, what I am saying is that when religion defines requirements
for followers it does not mean that that religion is not tolerant
for them. You should always remember that believing
and following is always voluntary. The same way academic requirements
for students should seldom be considered in terms of liberalism
or tolerance. The problem starts however when inter-religious
issues are considered. That's why I see entire action of Rabbi Weiss
as highly intolerant - Rabbi Weiss wanted to impose requirements
of his own religion (which I do not resent) on Catholic church in 
Poland in harmful way and that I resent. If we agree on thinking
that way, next time Ayatllah will come and entire city will have
to be evacuated to fullfill his religious requirements.

A. Mazur
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2442 soc.culture.jewish:15526
From: re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 8 Sep 92 04:36:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.8ef9spa00WB71183cr
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I was surprised to see that my fellow Jews following this thread,
after being told to go to the history books, did not do so.  The
Polish posters are perfectly right in stating that the Polish
government (up to the Saxon accession to the throne, in 1697),
has practically had *NO ANTISEMITIC RECORD*.  That at a time when
both in Western Europe and in Russia, official antisemitism was
almost constantly the case.
The Sigismunds and Bathori have been Polish Kings who granted
equal rights to the Jews, and who - because of their simpathy to
the Jews, as a result of the benefits they had from Jewish
professionals (especially personal doctors) - have always spoken in
favor of the Jews.  Often they had to intervene to rescue Jews from
the hands of the Church.
It is the Catholic Church of Poland that succesfully transformed
the Polish population into one of the most antisemitic peoples
that Europe has ever known.  The blood liebel was most used by
this Church; this Church has continuously supported the view of
Jews as killers of Christ (despite the Papal Buls and the Polish
Kings' continuously reminding the Church leaders about the falsity
of the accusation).
Their success in practically creating a nation of antisemites is easy
to understand: the uneducated Pole who believed in the Church and its
authority even more than in that of the Polish rulers was the perfect
material.  Over generations, the myths they were told by their Catholic
priest have transformed themselves into "facts".  To this day the
Poles keep with them that legacy.
There is only one way to change this, and that is that the maker be
the breaker.  The Chatolic Church is still the most influential
institution in Poland.  Unfortunately, it is also still contributing
to the perpetuation of antisemitism.
I made friends here with Poles that tell me that in their churches in
Poland, to this day, Jews are continuously presented as the source of
evil, the killers of Christ, and... as the cause of communism.

Rad
Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2654 soc.culture.jewish:16000
From: roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:52:50 GMT
Reply-To: roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman Budzianowski)
Followup-To: soc.culture.polish
Organization: Horizon Research

In article <1992Sep15.195102.24641@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
> In article <18697.2ab46adc@levels.unisa.edu.au>
> etad@levels.unisa.edu.au writes:

> >know nothing). Unfortunately, proper documentation of statements like
yours is
> >essential, because it is the only way to establish some historical (at least
> >factual) truth. Unless (please, think about it carefully for
yourself), it is
> >not the truth that you want, but noise and stench.

> I see.  So until it is documented to your satisfaction, it never happened.
> And at what level will you finally be satisfied?  Apparently far higher
> than is ever possible.  Yours is a classic revisionist's tactic.

> Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
> 	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton

You haven't contributed even one fact to the discussion, even if not
fully substantiated. If you say that Poles helped Germans murder Jews,
please tell us about the scale of this activity, the circumstances, etc.
Is is really too much to ask ?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: przemek@tokamak.viewlogic.com (Przemek Skoskiewicz)
Subject: Re: Feminism & Other Issues
Originator: przemek@tokamak
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:40:06 GMT


I second the motion.  Any news on the Jaroszewicz killing?  The only Polish news
comming my way, Nowy Dziennik and Donosy, have stopped publishing any info after
few days.  I suppose that this is a hot topic of discussions in Poland right now.
Does anybody care to comment?

I can, sort of, understand a murder.  But torture the guy?


By the by, the kill files have turned up to be invaluable when browsing through
this newsgroup.  I would've never guessed that would be necessary two months ago.

-- 
Viewlogic Systems, Inc.                         Przemek Skoskiewicz
293 Boston Post Road West
Marlborough, MA 01752-4615, USA
email: przemek@viewlogic.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lnieplo3@ua1ix.ua.edu (Jaroslaw Nieplocha)
Subject: Re: (Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity) AND Glemp's tolerance
Organization: The University of Alabama
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:35:23 GMT




>
>So you would like him to support abortions ? Maybe he should be even
>more liberal, more liberal than anybody in the world, that would
>be perfect, with one exception - it would not be religion.
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why not ?

It is a topic more suited for another group. But, when principles
of a religion lack tolerance and understanding
   ^
(to which you refer as liberalism) and love (can it exist when the
other two don't ?) it usually divides and antagonizes people.


>By the way, did you read single sentences from Cardinal Glemp's
>sermons or homilies, other opinions about those sermons, or did you
>read entire sermons ? 

No, I know only fragments of some. My impressions (about tolerance)
were based upon them. However, it seems that there are others who
felt this way. Specificaly, these fragments about dealing with people
infected with AIDS are very controversial.


>You does not seem to see any difference
>between religion codes of ethics and tolerance for other religions.
>
>A. Mazur

Are you saying that CODE OF ETHICS of a religion does not apply
when dealing with people, organizations, or religions other than yours?
It is sad ...

Jarek Nieplocha


Xref: sparky soc.culture.polish:2491 soc.culture.jewish:15619
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:56:40 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.polish
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <8ef9spa00WB71183cr@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:

>The Sigismunds and Bathori have been Polish Kings who granted
>equal rights to the Jews, and who - because of their simpathy to
>the Jews, as a result of the benefits they had from Jewish
>professionals (especially personal doctors) - have always spoken in
>favor of the Jews.  Often they had to intervene to rescue Jews from
>the hands of the Church.

 Good point. Political anti-clericalism of the Polish nobility
prevented the excesses of the Inquisition. The Sejm (the parliament
of the First Polish Republic - yes, Poland was a republic 
from 1569 to 1795, when the rest of Europe was fighting their 
religious wars and being busy with burning witches :-) 
- where is that spirit of tolerance ? :-( ) passed laws in 1552,
1562 and 1565 banning it from Poland.

 Lech Borkowski


Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.vietnamese,soc.culture.iranian,misc.education,soc.culture.nepal
From: fculpepp@norfolk.vak12ed.edu (Fred W. Culpepper)
Subject: Re: ONENESS AND UNIQUENESS OF THE CREATOR, AND THE PURPOSE OF CREATION
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Norfolk)
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 15:04:00 GMT

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - In fact it is already stretched beyond the
bounds of common network courtesy.  I personally find the
previous three articles by IRFAN ALAN to be disturbing since
they will likely begin a thread of religious argument which has
no place on the newsgroup "misc. education".  Lets not permit
this newsgroup which has been discussing education matters
including private vs. public education to be dragged down into
the bottomless pit of religious debate.

NOTICE TO MODERATOR:  Would you please inform Mr. Alan which of
the newsgroups is the place for his personal views.  Certainly
it is not this one!

Fred W. Culpepper
OLD DOMINION UNIVERSITY (Retired)
fculpepp@norfolk.vak12ed.edu
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: bart@sieppo.cs.tut.fi (Jaworski Bartlomiej)
Subject: Re: Jack Tuszynski w Polsce
Reply-To: bart@cs.tut.fi
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 11:48:35 GMT

In article <p2nnvc#@lynx.unm.edu>, osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug31.145114.26958@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> jjt@aristotle.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jack Tuszynski) writes:
|> >Spowrotem z wakacji w Polsce.  Pisalem taki list do druga w Krakowie.
|> >Przepraszalem swoich wszystkich kolegow sieciowcow ze nie moglem sie
|> >z nimi spotkac.  Taki dlugi list o Polsce, ze zal mi go zkasowac z rm.
|> >To wysylam go tez do s.c.p.  Swierze informacje z kraju, oczami 
|> >zachodniego turysty:
|> 
|> W Twoich wrazeniach z podrozy do Polski, Jacku, zabraklo mi wyraznie
|> Twojego ulubionego tematu, a mianowicie komuchow. Czyzbys nic nie mial 
|> na ten temat do powiedzenia?
|> 
    TUTAJ:

   Neutralny text o podlaczaniu polskich univ. do sieci komp.
   ^^^^^^^^^
|> 
|> No prosze, a wiec jednak jestes za postepem w podlaczaniu Polski do
|> sieci komputerowych. Po coz wiec byly te nieuzasadnione uwagi, gdy
|> Michal Jankowski poinformowal nas, ze fizyka na UW ma dostep do sieci?
|> 
|> Marek Osinski


   Czy draznienie ludzi to panska specjalnosc, Panie Marku ?

  Bart Jaworski,
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: jjt@aristotle.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jack Tuszynski)
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: DONOSY (English translation) missing
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 07:23:32 GMT

>From donosy@fuw.edu.pl Fri Sep  4 22:23:33 1992
>Subject: English-language Donosy

No English language Donosy translation?

Glad to be of assistance.  Here let me translate this newsbrief: 

>Jaroszewiczowie ofiarami morderstwa

>W nocy z wtorku na srode w willi w podwarszawskim Aninie (gdzie
>mieszkali od lat) znaleziono ciala Piotra Jaroszewicza i jego
>zony Alicji Solskiej. Zbrodni dokonano zapewne poprzedniej nocy.
>Doniesienia prasowe podaja sprzeczne szczegoly, ale wydaje sie,
>ze Jaroszewicz zostal uduszony, jego zona - zastrzelona, a oboje
>byli wczesniej torturowani. Podejrzewa sie motyw rabunkowy
>(znaleziono otwarty i pusty sejf) ale nie wyklucza sie innego
>(sprawcy pozostawili bizuterie i wiele innych cennych
>przedmiotow). Sledztwo prowadzi specjalna ekipa Komendy Glownej
>Policji oraz UOP-u.

Translation: A worthless communist former Prime Minister was tortured,
partially robbed, and then killed by somebody??? who broke into his mansion
in Poland today.  The police will investigate, but for a price.  They
want part of the loot.  The perpetrators will probably get away, but
then again, the communists got away with torture and murder.  It's
only fair to let them go too.  Such is the nature of lawlessness.
From: EM20@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: pytanie o stan liczebny
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:06:11 GMT
Organization: University of Liverpool

Ostatniej niedzieli obily mi sie o uszy nastepujace fakty (TV):
obecna liczba Zydow mieszkajacych w Niemczech siega
14 tys., z czego 7 tys. we Frankfurcie. Populacja ta
ma tendencje znizkowa... Ciekawe jak wygladaja powyzsze
liczby w Polsce, rozrzut spoleczny, terytorialny etc. ?
Jak wiarygodne moga byc te dane....
Pozdrowienia...j.b.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 21:52:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.070604.28339@dxcern.cern.ch> michal@vsnmc2.cern.ch (Michal Szleper) writes:
>It happens that I have seen Shoah.  For what I remember, original
>speeches were in Polish and there was a woman who translated it ...

>1) In front of a church one man says: "There is a theory that Jews
>should be persecuted forever because they have crucified Jesus.
>I don't accept this theory."  He repeated the second sentence twice,
>however, the translator simply refused to translate it at all,

What the man is saying here is that some Poles encourage the persecution
of Jews on the basis of the crucifiction of Jesus. 

This is not unique to Poles. Such theories have been preached by
numerous Christian churchpeople over the millennia, who have
influenced many people to accept them. I was treated to such
accusations as a child here in the United States, for instance.

The fact that the man being interviewed does not subcribe to this
theory is not necessarily relevant to the discussion.

Do you claim that the Church did not promulgate this theory in Poland
or that Poles overwhelmingly rejected it?



>2) Question to an old peasant: "Did your family feel sorry seeing the
>extermination of Jews during WWII?"  Answer: "It is true we didn't
>like them.  Had they some day gone to Israel, we would be happy.
>But just killing them like that - of course we felt sorry."
>The translator exposed only the first two sentences, skipping
>through the last one.

Well, the full quote is certainly a ringing endorsement of good will! :-)

Seriously, the first two sentences do indicate that the speaker did
not condone the killings. And the whole quote shows that the Jews were
not welcome to the speaker, which may have been the whole point.

--Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish