HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Speeds at Le Mans, Rondeau, Rondel (was: Mazdas @ Bonneville)
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:56:40 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Robert Marti (marti@nugget.inf.ethz.ch) wrote:
: 
: What I find interesting is that there was a Formula-2 team called Rondel
: in the early 1970ies.  They first fielded Brabham BT38s with drivers like
: Bob Wollek and Tim Schenken.  Later, they designed their own F2 chassis.
: I vaguely recall that they were even thinking of entering F1, but I don't
: remember what came out of it.  Also, I keep wondering if there wasn't
: a certain Ron Dennis behind the whole thing?
:   

[See my followup to Dan J.'s article, which also mentions Rondel] 

Rondel were basically Ron Dennis (formerly of Cooper and Brabham, later of
Project 3, Project 4 and McLaren) and Neil Trundle (formerly of Brabham,
can't remember where he ended up, but he became head mechanic in a top F1
team).

They also ran Reutemann (I think) and occasionally Graham Hill
(these were the days when the stars ran F2 to make their beer money :-)
Their own F2 chassis became the Motul. Not sure who drove it. Pescarolo,
Wollek and Migault come to mind, but I may be wrong. 

In the '73 close season Motul/Rondel planned to go into F1, and got as far
as commissioning Ray Jessop to design a simple DFV-powered car to use for
'74. Of course, the Energy Crisis bit in a big way and Motul being an oil
company didn't help. 

The team was wound up (Ron formed Project 3 and ran F2 Marches in '75)
the Jessop-designed F1 car was sold off and ended up as the Token (financed
by Tony Vlassopoulo and Ken Grob, hence the name). The late Tom Pryce
made his F1 debut in the Token at the International Trophy. I think a
couple of GPs were entered with no success.

The car was sold on and I think ended its days called Safir.

Pete
--
*Peter Fenelon -- Research Associate -- Software Safety Assessment Procedures*
Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388
EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built up areas'
From: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: This "reliable cars" thread
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:18:52 GMT
Reply-To: stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil (William Stoffel)
Organization: Annapolis Detachment, CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC

No flame intended. I'm sure no one did anything malicious, but I'd like to
make a polite request if I may. Per its charter, discussions such as
"my slug is more reliable than your snail" are not appropriate in this
group unless they deal with using said slugs and snails in some form
of competition/recreation (target practice springs to mind :-)

Such discussions should take place in rec.autos or, PERHAPS, rec.autos.tech.
PLEASE try to keep them there.

Thank you for your kind attention. - Bill
__________________________________________________________________________
Bill Stoffel              |  CARDEROCKDIV, NSWC  |First things first!     |
stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Code 2759           | (But not necessarily in|
(410) 267-3825            |  Annapolis, MD 21402 |that order) - The Doctor|
_________________________________________________|________________________|
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: ibiggs@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Ian Biggs)
Subject: Re: Mansell and Prost
Organization: Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency (ACOA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:12:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.161700.10600@rdg.dec.com> winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski) writes:

>In article <961@pico.OZ>, conrad@pico.OZ (Conrad Drake) writes:

>|>Schumacher had been in that
>|>battle but his rear wind exitted stage-left halfway down the main
>|>straight after a shunt from Brundle.

>It looked to me as if this occurred because Schumacher moved over on Brundle,
>i.e., it was Schumacher's own fault that Brundle took his rear wing off.

>--PSW
Acording to Schumacher (Jonathan Palmer interviewed him in the pits (CBC 
coverage)) he stated that as he was attacking Berger, Berger "shut the door" 
on him causing him brake and change lines. He then said "Martin already 
braked as much as he could" before they made contact. A sad incident, 
Shumacher may have been able to takr Berger before the race ended.

Rob Chute
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency
Halifax, Nova Scotia
CANADA
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mchivers@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Michael Chivers)
Subject: Re: Proposal: rec.autos.formula1
Keywords: racing autos formula1 newsgroups
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:04:56 GMT

I, for one, count myself as a motor-sport fan.  I like reading
about/watching *all* forms of motor sport (F1, Indycar, WSC, rallying,
IMSA, (a bit of) NASCAR, other formula stuff and touring cars, so I
reckon that r.a.s should *not* be split up.

Is anyone interested in touring cars ?

My A$0.02 worth.

Anthony Doig                  | E-Mail : mchivers@uniwa.oz.au
Corporate Systems Development |
Perth, Western Australia      | - When you read this, laugh -
From: davison@unity.ncsu.edu (John Davison)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Jaguar
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:57:58 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University Project Unity

Don't know why The Guardian didn't write it immediately, but even here in the US
it got reported on National Public Radio.... Very tongue-in-cheek style, and 
they interviewed the tester.... He seemed slightly bemused by all the attention.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 John_Davison@ncsu.edu   |  Spencer's Laws: 1. Anyone can make a decision given
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 Student Computing Lab   |  decision without enough facts.
      DoD # 0476         |  3. A perfect manager can operate in perfect
    (919) 515-6601       |     ignorance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: james@Bridge.COM (James Montebello)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Driver-owned teams; are they the best?
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:45:44 GMT
Organization: Bridge Information Systems

In article <1992Aug18.031527.13944@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
[on driver-owned teams]
>As Bobby Rahal has shown lately, it's definitely a winning combination.
>
>I'm not too up on my F1 history, but has there ever been a mildly
>succesful driver-owned team contesting in F1? Ever?
>Lotus? Nahhhh ...

Several.

Repco-Brabham immediately pops to mind (more than "mildly successful",
as Jack won the Championship in '66). Gurney-Westlake won the GP at Spa 
in '67 with Dan Gurney at the wheel (Gurney even designed the car).

John Surtees drove his own cars for a while in the early Seventies. 

McLaren, of course, was once owned by driver Bruce McLaren. He drove
Can Am McLarens successfully, but memory fails on his F1 career. 

Colin Chapman never raced cars of his own construction; so, no, Lotus
is not on this list. While Enzo Ferrari raced cars in the '20s, he
never drove his own cars, which he didn't start making until after the
war. 

As far as recent history goes (say, after 1980), I don't believe there
have been any driver-owned teams in F1 at all, let alone successful 
ones.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
james montebello (james@bridge.com)         'my employer has no opinions'		
"If we don't succeed, then we run the risk of failure." -Dan Quayle 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: dp54@mc4adm.UWaterloo.ca (Rob Silcher)
Subject: F1 Pick6
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:11:20 GMT

# Due to mailing problems...
# Here are my picks for the Hungarian GP
#

Player: Rob Silcher
ReplyTo: dp54@mc4adm.UWaterloo.ca

1. Mansell
2. Schumacher
3. Senna
4. Brundle
5. Alesi
6. Alboreto
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: bob@ncube.com (Bob Kehoe)
Subject: Economaki on PITSTOP
Organization: nCUBE Computers, Beaverton, Oregon, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 16:45:52 GMT

Chris Economaki was a gracious, informative and interesting
guest on the show last night.  When you are able to dig 
beneath the surface, you gain a lot of respect for what he
has done within motorsports throughout his lifetime.  I wish
you could all hear a tape of the show.

One thing I want to get to right up front, and those of you who
do not care for Chris as a TV commentator might want to consider
this for the future.  Perhaps it's his style in comparison with
today's style of analysts.  As a novice in this field right now,
he taught me a very quick lesson last night.

Chris is a newspaper reporter, first and foremost.  His pet peeve
with others within the (especially TV field) is that the interviewer
is doing more of a personal commentary when in front of the camera
and trying to show off his knowledge of the sport.  By the time the
interviewer is finished with his comments, the driver being interviewed
has nothing more to add, so therefore just goes into the requisite
sponsor mentions.  The interviewer should hit the driver (or whomever)
with a question right up front and the interviewee should take it from
there.

You must also remind yourself that Chris is probably 75 or 76 years old
now, but maintains a very active schedule.  'Course we had to ask him
how he got started, etc.  He told some fascinating stories about being
a kid of 12 or 13 back in 1929, sneaking into the racetracks (this was
the depression), being the waterboy for the likes of Rex Mays, etc., 
selling National Speed Sport News in the grandstands, eventually
starting to write a column for it in the 30's, and finally buying the
publication in 1950.  It's current circulation is around 78,000.

It was also interesting hearing how he went from PA at Daytona to doing
the first coverage for races on Wide World of Sports.  Too long a story
to relate here.

I would like to be his understudy.  I believe if I really paid close
attention, I would learn something most valuable between the lines.

Moving on with the show, during the 2nd hour we had unsolicited calls
from both Parker Johnstone (who provided some really good insight on
IMSA happenings, which I'll post later) and Margie Smith-Haas, of
Team San Diego in ACRL.

-c'ball-
From: jjn@cbjjn.cb.att.com (Jeff Nappi)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: Rahal Rumor
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:05:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs

In article <1992Aug12.170320.2669@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, gbg@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (gerald.b.green) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug12.015751.15184@newsance.att.com> rcpilz@newsance.att.com (Robert C. Pilz;660-4694;TTCOM03) writes:
|> >I don't think Bobby Rahal will be buying Truesport. He already is part
|> >owner of his current racing team Patrick Racing. 
|> >According to a conversation I had with Bobby's mother, the move to buy
|> >into Patrick racing was so that he could get the supply of Chevy engines.
|> >What has hurt Bobby in the past few years has been lack of horsepower.
|> >The Judd engine was a disaster for him.
|> 
|> Huh? Rahal had Chevy engines at Galles/Kraco. He left Truesports for
|> Galles/Kraco to get the Chevy. Reports were that he left Galles/Kraco
|> because he didn't like having a two car team.
|> 
|> >                                        I don't think he'll be racing
|> >with a Honda engine unless they have something that will "blow the
|> >doors off" the most recent Chevy and Ford systems.
|> >	.

Well here in Columbus where Rahal lives a local tv station reported that
reports are that Rahal may be looking at taking over Truesports. I would
not be suprised to see this happen, Bobby Rahal and his wife are building
a new home here and both are active in the community, if he had a desire
to move to a two car team this would be a good move combining his current
team with Truesports. Bobby Rahal is also part owner in Tracktime which
is a driver school for novices, so also owning Mid-Ohio would be convenient
for Tracktime and car testing. Mid-Ohio is about 45 minutes from Columbus.

-- 
Jeff Nappi
Columbus Bell Labs
jjn@cbjjn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: mc2@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Mike Cox 310-524-7792)
Subject: Re: history question -- Ontario Motor Speedway
Organization: NCR (Torrey Pines Development Center)
Disclaimer: This posting does not neccessarily reflect the opinions of NCR.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 16:58:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.181514.15491@cabot.balltown.cma.COM> welty@balltown.cma.com (richard welty) writes:
>i've been wondering about this a little while now; perhaps one
>of our resident motorsport historians can give us an answer.
>
>Ontario Motor Speedway in California was a copy (more or less) of
>Indy; both indy cars and Nascar stockers ran there.  can anyone give
>a brief description of the history of the track?  when was it built,
>how long did major series run there, and ultimately what led to its
>demise (and when was it shut down?)  does it still exist?
>
>thanks,
>  richard

The last NASCAR race at OMS was in '81, they quit holding any races
shortly after that. The land was bought by one of the oil companies
(EXXON???) to build an industrial complex/mall/anything else they
could think of. I think they raced about anything there at one time
or another. They basically tried to focus all of their attention around
the one Indy car race of the year, and just didn't draw a big enough crowd. 

The folks that built the track had some sort of arrangement with the
city of Ontario which made the city part owners of the track. In the
10-15 years the track existed there were three or four different private
groups that co-owned with the city, one of which was a group headed by
Penske. There was never any promotion for the races, and local TV/papers
practically ignored it.

The major events in an average year were an Indy car race, NASCAR, and
drag race(SummerNationals?). They also raced go-carts, motorcycles,
Camel GT, 10 speed bikes, SCCA and club races, and provided a place to
road test production automobiles. The big three were the only events
that drew any crowds at all, and those were not enough to pay the bills
and loans at the end. The only grandstands started at the entrance to
turn four and went down the front straight to the exit of turn one. There
was a road coarse through the infield, and you could see the whole track
from the grandstands unless you were real low.

It took years for them to finally tear the main grandstand down. Apparently,
it was built out of solid concrete and they couldn't get permits to use
dynomite. While everything is now gone, they haven't built anything on the
track site. I don't know how exact OMS was a copy of Indy, but the racing
was good for the times. It seems like the last few Indy car races had real
low car turn out, maybe 15 to 20 cars. I can remember some of the cars that
started the race didn't even put out equipment on pit lane, they just
started the race to get the show up money... NASCAR was the only group that
consistantly had full fields, but even they had west coast cars in the back
of the pack.

--Mike
michael.cox@elsegundoca.ncr.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: jjn@cbjjn.cb.att.com (Jeff Nappi)
Subject: Re: Rahal Rumor
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:29:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.033431.13711@cbnews.cb.att.com>, jrs@cbnews.cb.att.com (jeff.sherota) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug13.130542.13402@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jjn@cbjjn.cb.att.com (Jeff Nappi) writes:
|> >> In article <1992Aug12.015751.15184@newsance.att.com> rcpilz@newsance.att.com (Robert C. Pilz;660-4694;TTCOM03) writes:
|> >>I don't think Bobby Rahal will be buying Truesport. He already is part
|> >>owner of his current racing team Patrick Racing. 
|> >
|> >Well here in Columbus where Rahal lives a local tv station reported that
|> >reports are that Rahal may be looking at taking over Truesports.
|> 
|> More news from Columbus, they just announced on the news that there will
|> be a news conference tomorrow morning (Friday the 14th) at Truesports.
|> No details about what they are going to announce, but Barbara Trueman and 
|> Bobby Rahal will be present ... hmmmmmm.
|> 

Well according to reports this morning Truesports will cease operations
and Rahal/Hogan Racing will move there operations to Truesports old building
and lease it for three years. Red Roof Inns will now become a major sponsor.
Scott Pruett could not be reached for comment and there was no word on
whether or not Mid-Ohio Race track is part of the deal. A news conferance
is scheduled for 10am this morningi at Truespsorts headquarters.



-- 
Jeff Nappi
Columbus Bell Labs
jjn@cbjjn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: NASCAR at INDY??
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:18:50 GMT

In article <16841A148.GR743@uacsc2.albany.edu> GR743@uacsc2.albany.edu (Greg Rickes) writes:
>There are lots of other places ready, willing,
>and able to add a Winston Cup race at a
>moments notice, e.g. NHIS, Heartland Park
>in Topeka, Milwaukee, heck even SANAIR
>up in Quebec would be a possibility.

and barbara trueman is rumored to be bringing mid-ohio up to
nascar safety standards.

winston cup in the madness or the carousel; i'd love to see that.

cheers,
  richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: firebird@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (larry rosen)
Subject: Re: Recommendations for a used sporty car
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:40:27 GMT

In article <CMM.0.90.2.714055177.gmc@helix.nih.gov>, gmc@HELIX.NIH.GOV ("Gordon M. Charrick") writes:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm starting to think about getting a used car to replace my current six
> year old one. I want something sporty but it can't be a sports car per se
> because my insurance company (Erie) won't cover sports cars and I do not
> want to switch companies. Anyway, I've been thinking of getting a Toyota
> Celica GTS maybe up to 3 years old. I was wondering what kind of experience
> anyone out there who has one has had with theirs and would they recommend
> getting a used one. I'd also like ideas for other cars to look at. Oh, by
>
>

I have an '86 Celica GT-S and I love it.  Never hade a problem with it
and it's fun to drive.  It come with all the bells and wistles that make it
a pretty nice car.  But I'm not sure it will meet your "not too sporty"
requirements as it is definately considered a sports car by my and many
other ins. companies (I have checked it out with alot of companies, and
very few these days not considered sports cars.  Even my Datsun 310
was a sports car according to the ins. companies, it's just a little
econo-box that barely makes it to the speed limit.).  Anyway good luck
with your Toy.
From: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: Re: McLaren's newfound speed
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:18 GMT
Reply-To: winalski@adserv.enet.dec.com (Paul S. Winalski)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH


In article <1992Aug18.231751.16694@syacus.acus.oz.au>,
roberts@syacus.acus.oz.au (Robert Salier) writes:
|>
|>It wouldn't surprise me if the jungle-juice regs made a difference too.
|>I think we are close to the end of the Renault dominance - if Honda
|>remain in F1.

How, then, do you explain Patrese walking away with the race, until he blew
it by going off course while passing backmarkers?  Senna couldn't touch
Patrese.  Granted, Williams did lose about 1 second of their customary
2-second advantage over the field, but they still dominate.

--PSW
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
From: marti@inf.ethz.ch (Robert Marti)
Subject: Re: Potted History of Brabham (was Re: driver owned teams in F1)
Keywords: brabham,mclaren
Organization: Dept. Informatik, ETH Zurich, Switzerland
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:43:19 GMT

In article <thos.714261431@suite.sw.oz.au> thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
writes:
[ very nice description of the history of the Brabham team omitted ]
>So, in 1969 Brabham went Cosworth. In 1970, Brabham himself won a couple
>of GPs, and nearly won a few more. Then he retired.

Off the top of my head:  I think "Black Jack" only won the South Africa
GP at Kyalami.  He lead the 1970 Monaco GP in his Brabham-Ford BT33
till the very last corner (then Gasometre) where he went off, slightly
damaging his car.  Jochen Rindt, in a Lotus-Ford 49C went by for his
2nd GP win (and the first in 1970).  Then, in the GP of England at
Brands Hatch, Brabham again led most of the second half of the race,
only to run out of fuel in the last lap.  Jochen Rindt went by to win
in his Lotus-Ford 72.  (Rindt was then temporarily disqualified and
later re-instated because of a dispute about the hight of the rear wing
on his car.)


>On the other hand, McLaren's F1 efforts were not as inspiring, with
>diversions into Alfa and Serenissima which were not successful.
>Bruce won a GP, more by perseverence than anything else, in 1967 (?)
>but not much else.

I agree that Bruce didn't win many GPs in his own car.  However, in the
1968 season, reigning world champion Dennis Hulme, who had changed from
Brabham to McLaren, scored a couple of wins in a McLaren-Ford M7 and
was still in contention for the title one or two races from the end of
the season -- the other contenders being Graham Hill driving a
Lotus-Ford 49 and Jackie Stewart driving a Matra-Ford MS11.

-- 
Robert Marti                    |  Phone:    +41 1 254 72 60
Informationssysteme             |  FAX:      +41 1 262 39 73
ETH-Zentrum                     |  E-Mail:   marti@inf.ethz.ch
CH-8092 Zurich, Switzerland     |
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport