From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Annoying, cloying "wann-be"s (was Pagan Bumper Stickers)
Date: 7 Nov 92 01:50:03 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1992Nov6.002538.6575@athena.mit.edu>, salea@athena.mit.edu (Sherrian Lea) writes...

>I've been thinking about these people for a while and I'm becoming 
>convinced that fantasy role-playing has, in general, been a problem for 
>the Pagan community.  Bright, creative, imaginative people, who have always
>known that they weren't like everyone around them wander into all kinds of 
>places -- like SF fandom, the gaming community, the SCA and Paganism.  
>Unfortunately, it takes a while for them to recognise that just because 
>these activities attract what they perceive to be the same kind of people,
>they aren't the same activities.


	I have dealt with sci-fi/fantasy people in ritual and the casual 
reader/player has never given me a problem, but the obsessed type, well, I 
have never NOT had a problem with them! I don't want to go into details 
about the problems (it would embarass someone to death and it really isn't 
anyone's business but the coven's) but the problems have been severe to say 
the very least and directly related to the role-playing community and their 
expectations of demons around every corner and zap-spells with instant 
results. What happens when they don't get this? Bitterness, frustration, 
anger, and the coven makes an enemy and not a very well ballanced one at 
that. Dangerous.

	And yes, I agree about the problem with wanting instant results! (I 
inadvertently deleted your comment on D&D converts to Craft frustrations over 
the lack of instant results) That and the power over others is usually the 
BIGGEST desire of this sort (and good reasons I won't work with them at all). 

	 The group I am dealing with knows nothing of the Wiccan reede, will 
cast spells against and over people and things without a second thought, and 
are perpetually playing their fantasy of "fighting the forces of evil" out on 
the world. Think on this a moment. They are publicly proclaiming themselves 
witches, warlocks, wizards and sorcerers/esses. They run around bragging 
about how powerful they are and how they could kill somebody with that power. 
They threaten people with it. Beat theur chests. Are challenged by old or 
abandoned houses "full of evil spirits". Utterly useless to the pagan 
community. But what great fodder for xtian fundies they make! Willing to 
manipulate and attack anyone instantly! And think how great they look on TV 
when some reporter in search of sensationalism finds one of these freaks and 
interviews them! Isn't the damage they do to us worse than the damage done by 
fundies? I think it is. This is my point.


>I'm surprised you've encountered so many; as a Witch and a gamer, I think
>I find about two a year -- which is plenty.  I'm surprised there are
>that many of them about, although I shouldn't be, I guess.  Might it be 
>possible that some of the people you encountered were in some kind of "con 
>persona" or otherwise making stuff up on purpose.  I hope so, for your sake; 
>finding one of what you call the SFDWs at every con would really suck.

Note: SFDW = Sci-fi Dweeb Wizard. Self explainitory.

	The people I have met where the same in and out of the cons. Not 
personas, just people who need to be super-man to feel alright about 
themselves, people who will throw hate spells at someone who casually offends 
them in passing. People with low self esteem who use fantasies as a crutch. 
Fantasy attracts a lot of juvenille people into escapism as well as the bright, 
creative ones. And the problem here is what happens when the immature and 
under-developed ones start calling themselves Witches and trying to throw 
spells.


>But I'm not sure I agree with your approach, especially to the ones you 
>call "Show-pagans."  I hate to feel manipulated or interrogated, too, but
>it's been my impression that when people are clueless and looking for 
>information it doesn't hurt to give it to them.  


	As for giving the information to these people so they can learn, I 
used to do just that! I always said that the path improves the seeker, and 
told anyone anything they wanted to know. But then I met someone who proved 
how wrong I was and I am resposible for what that person did with what I 
gave. I have to live with that. It's a hard lesson.
	Since then I have never given training to anyone unless they "felt" 
right, or I felt that they could benefit from it. So I give advice and 
training only if I feel it is right to do so and this means that those I 
won't give knowledge to get VERY offended.


>Is the situation bad 
>enough that setting these people at least partially straight would keep you 
>away from the con?   Is it possible to ask the person who's telling people
>you trained her to stop, and explain to her why?  Is there anyone you
>know with whom she could study who might give her a bit more of a clue?
> 
>Or is it bad enough that you just want out?  Good luck -- I hope they 
>learn something or leave you in peace.  Blessed be.
> 
>Sherrian

	Thank you, Sherrian. 

	On the note of the one claiming training from me, well, we don't 
speak, aren't friends anymore and she has ignored any and every attempt I 
have made to communicate with her. So I have dis-avowed these people and I 
no longer associate with them or their like. And I wouldn't foist them and 
their behaviour on anyone!

				- * - 

	The real concern of this post is how we as responsible pagans 
should deal with the immature jerks who seek power in this religion. I 
avoid them or point them at books like Sibyl Leek's "Complete Book of 
Witchraft". This gives them some philosophy (crams it down their throat, 
actually) before it provides them with any information about how to do things. 
They usually come back, arrogant and claiming mastery of the book, but upon 
questioning, have absorbed *nothing* and *still* want power. 

	I don't believe the primary goal of witchcraft is power and I don't 
teach it. Power and the ability to get spells to help you is a side-effect 
of the craft, and should come slowly, as the initiate is ready for it, not 
all at once. The Sci-Fi Dweeb Wizards and their ilk want to be able to 
*zap* someone *NOW* and often claim to be able to do so. It's their ego 
boost, makes them feel big and tough. How do we deal with that? What do we 
do when someone we meet has had exposure to these types of people and it 
colors their perceprions of us and our religion? In my experience it is much 
harder to change that perception than those who have heard that we eat babies, 
ride broomsticks to the moon and worship the devil.


			- Ashely

		"What happens when the symbols shatter..." - DIJ