HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: djm@TRENT.ATT.COM (Donald J. Magee)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:31:03 GMT
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              26, 93 9:22 am

> >>Some of what the Vatican teaches is the Truth.  Some of it isn't.  What
> >>they teach about homosexuality isn't.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >And to what do you attribute this startling revelation?  The misinformed
> >judgement of ex-catholics or protestant theologians, or homosexual
> >activists, or the media, or _your_own_opinion_?
> >
>
> Have you ever considered the possibility of the Spirit
> moving in the hearts of the people?
>
> At one time slavery was commonly accepted as a part of the culture
> of the time.
>
> Later people realized that slavery was an evil, and the Spirit prompted
> them to do something about that.
>
> Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the Spirit
> is calling on us to set aside yet another of our prejudices?
>
> Steve Otlowski-
>

The teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the of the Fathers of the
Church are not exactly "predjudices" as we have in common usage.
Unless of course God's condemnation of sin qualifies as His Divine
"Predjudice".

Don Magee
trent!djm@jolt.att.com
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:06:06 CST
From:         Defense Information School <dinfos@AFNEWS.PA.AF.MIL>
Subject:      New Subscriber Bio

As requested in the subscription confirmation message, here's a brief bio on
one of the newer members (me):

Mark Miller is an active duty Air Force member.  He has the enlisted grade of
E-8 (Senior Master Sergeant) and is currently stationed at Fort Benjamin
Harrison in Indianapolis In as an instructor at the Defense Information
School. The school trains journalists and broadcasters for all branches of the
Armed Forces.  He is is also a permanent deacon of the San Antonio, Texas
diocese.  As a deacon, he serves the Catholic community through the post
chapel.  Primary address is dinfos@afnews.pa.af.mil.  Alternate one is
root@dinfos.army.mil.  Alternate two is mcmiller@indyvax.iupui.edu.

Mark C. Miller
dinfos@afnews.pa.af.mil

"The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the eyes of others only
a green thing that stands in the way." -- William Blake
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 10:54:28 CST
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence
              22 Jan 1993 11:31:13 -0500 from <URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM>

On Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:31:13 -0500 <URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> said:
>CCCAMPER%MIZZOU1.BITNET@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU writes:
>>  The most notable was a case where not only did the bread and wine
>>turn to flesh and blood, but it remains incorrupt to this day and has
>>been examined by contemporary scientists. Their conclusion was that
>>the blood type matched with both samples, and the tissue was truly
>>that of a human heart. Add to this the fact that it remains miraculously
>>incorrupt after ? (hundreds of, I think) years and it seems a rather
>>remarkable witness that God can do whatever He chooses, whether our
>>feeble minds can master the concept or not.
>
>Not only that, but with advances in medical science, the actual second
>coming of Christ, may be in that of a clone. - J.J.
>
>(Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has considered requiring prospective priests
>to have the exact blood type of Jesus:-)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the content or purpose of this message.
Please explain it to me, and sorry for being dense.

In Christ,
Elizabeth
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:53:22 CST
From:         Christopher Monsour <monsourc@MATH.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      RE: Why is it?
 <1993Jan21.155037.22000@cs.tulane.edu> <6563@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk>
Distribution: bit.listserv.catholic
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, U. of Chicago

In article <6563@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
 writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.155037.22000@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond
 Lang) writes:
>>I could be wrong, but I thought Epiphany got moved to a Sunday
>>only in the U.S. and Canada.  My understanding was that Epiphany
>>remains a Holy Day of Obligation on Jan. 6 in Central and South
>>American countries.
>
>Here Epiphany was on a Wednesday this year. It gets moved to Sunday if it
>falls on a Monday or a Saturday (likewise Corpus Christi, SS Peter and Paul
>and others, I think.) I am not making this up.
>
>Martin "no relation" Barry.

I really don't think it's likely that the Feast of Corpus Christi would
fall on a Monday or Saturday.  It is celebrated on the Thursday following
Trinity Sunday (i.e., 11 days after Pentecost), at least in the Latin Rite,
unless the local bishop's conference decides otherwise.

                                 Christopher J. Monsour
                                 monsourc@zaphod.uchicago.edu
.
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From: jhalat@csfb1.fir.fbc.com (James Halat)
Subject: Re: Homosexual acts
Reply-To: uunet!csfb1!jhalat
Organization: First Boston Corporation
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:56:52 GMT

In article <C16sqt.Jst@unix.portal.com>, zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha) writes:

|> If you hold that something is OBJECTIVELY wrong, and it is wrong for people
|> to commit the act collectively, and you or I do that same act, under what
|> circumstance (if any) can that same act be OBJECTIVELY right?  You must
|> make decisions each day as to what is right and wrong - how do you do this?
|> 

If what is right and wrong is a decision, then how can it be objective?

-- 
James Halat                    e-mail:  uunet!csfb1!jhalat          
The First Boston Corporation   -- I speak only for myself --
New York City                     














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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:56:06 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Feb 4

                    Thursday, February 4, 1993

Hebrews 12:18-19, 21-24      Psalm 48           Mark 6:7-13

                     THE ECOLOGY OF MISSION

"They expelled many demons, anointed the sick with oil, and worked many
 cures." --Mark 6:13

Today we don't seem to be getting the same results as Jesus' first followers
did.  Demons aren't always expelled, and cures don't seem as numerous as in
Jesus' time.  Maybe our results are different because we're not following
Jesus' instructions.

  1) Are we going out to tell the good news of the kingdom?
  2) Are we going out "two by two?" (Mk 6:7)
  3) Have we taken "nothing on the journey?" (Mk 6:12)  Do we "have neither
        silver nor gold?" (Acts 3:6)
  4) Are we "preaching the need for repentance?" (Mk 6:12)

Signs and wonders accompany the proclamation of God's word when we do it the
way the Lord has commanded (Mk 16:17).  Healings don't exist in a vacuum but
are part of the work of evangelization.  Evangelizing is intimately related
to Christian community, a simple life-style, and repentance.

There's a spiritual ecology to the mission the Lord has given us.  We must
respect all the elements of this ecology to have the spiritual power promised
us in God's word.


Prayer:  Jesus, may I do works greater by far than the ones You did. (Jn 14:12)

Promise: "You have drawn near to Mount Zion and the city of the living God,
          the heavenly Jersalem, to myriads of angels in festal gathering,
          to the assembly of the first-born enrolled in heaven, to God the
          Judge of all."  (Heb 12:22-23)

Praise:  Jesus healed Bill of lung cancer.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
 Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
 Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, October 15, 1992.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:44:19 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Married Roman Catholic...
              21, 93 3:42 am

> I believe it is the case that one who has been excommmunicated must
> seek the approval of the local bishop in order to return.  A priest may
> not do this on his own authority, though it can be delegated to him
> by the bishop, as I understand is often the case in questions of abortion
> and the automatic excommunication that is incurred.

NY Archdiocese priests which have been granted permission to hear
confessions are delegated authority to lift excommunication.
(That I checked with a NY Arch. priest.)
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:36:00 PST
From:         Jim McIntosh <Jim@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      directions

On Mon, 25 Jan 1993 15:29:19 GMT Jerry Renault asked:
>where do you think the church is heading?  with the recent controversy of
>the anglican church's inclusion of woman as bishops and the always topical
>subjects of birth control and abortion, will the church change and adapt to
>the times, or will there ultimately be two catholic churches, the one based
>in rome and a more liberal american-based one?
>
>i think that a big split is coming.

Really? You see the American bishops breaking off to form their own church?
If any group were to break off (or break up) it would be in South America,
but I don't know anyone who seriously thinks that will happen. What *will*
happen is that more and more people will find the Church is irrelevant in
their lives and they will drift away. Some will go to other churches, but
many will join the great number of unchurched in this country. Ultimately,
unless we can find out how to recapture the excitment of the Gospel message
and make it meaningful to the people of today, the Church will get smaller
and smaller until it will simply disappear. We, who are charged by Jesus with
going into the world to live and preach His message, must discover how to
stop what is increasingly becoming a reality.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington, DC USA 20016-8019
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: homilies
Date: 27 Jan 1993 16:20:28 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: redx.cac.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan26.233946.21677@mlb.semi.harris.com>, bath@dw3f.ess.harris.com (Kenneth Bath) writes:
|> 
|> The homily is "an explanation, pertinent to the mystery being celebrated
|> and the special needs of the listeners, of some point in either the readings
|> from sacred Scripture or in another text from the Ordinary or Proper parts
|> of the Mass;  it is a proclamation of the Good News for a response of faith."
|> (_The Catholic Almanac_,"Mass, Eucharistic Sacrifice and Banquet")
|> 
Note that the homily comes from the rabbinic tradition of explication/exegesis
of a passage of scripture in the synagogue - another carry over in mass from
our earliest origins.  If you read the sermons of the early church fathers
this tight tie to the scripture is clear.
|> 
|> BTW,  in researching what a homily should be, I noted that Canon Law reserves
|> the preaching of a homily during Mass to persons who are ordained.  Well,
|> last Sunday's sermon was delivered by a lay person.  You learn something
|> every day....
|> 
No, no, no - what a lay person delivers is "instruction" (American Conference of
Bishops terminology) or "reflection" (our parish common parlance) - but not a
homily.

I will admit, however, to being spoiled.  Both our Dominican priests are
superb homilists - their unprepared daily mass homilies frequently outdoing
their prepared Sunday homilies.  However, I do agree that many Catholics
receive the majority of the religious education and spiritual direction through
the homily - a fact homilists need to keep firmly in mind when choosing
material.  But I think it is a mistake to convert the homily to into a class-
room lecture. 
|> 
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:15:30 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Origins

Thomas Zerucha asks:
> Out of curiosity, do you have an example of this (citation)?
"Instant Evolution", _Science Digest_, July, 1982
"A Breed Apart", _Scientific American_, February, 1989
Enjoy - J.J.
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:41:00 EST
From:         lhh@LCUXLP.ATT.COM
Subject:      Natures of Jesus

Our upcoming topic in RCIA is simply titled: "Jesus".
(actually Jesus I and II  - apparently it used to be covered
in two sessions).

>From Catholic Update "Who is Jesus ?" by Leonard Foley, O.F.M:

" ... It turned out that Jesus' expectations about his mission on earth
were not to be fulfilled in the way he had hoped.
Because of the hardness of heart of his listeners, the Kingdom would
not come in the way he had thought it would. ..."

Could someone explain this ?
I have difficulty with the issue of
what Jesus knew, and when did he know it.
Please, no textbook definitions. I have three catechism
books at home, I think I know the definitions.
I dont have the image.


                Thanks in advance,
                Len Horn
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Return-Path: cms@dragon.com
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:45:43 EST
From:         "Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith)" <cms@DRAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: Celibacy oath

>From: "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
>Subject: Re:  priests switching churches
>>
>> I've read and heard a great deal about Episcopal priests becoming
>> Roman Catholic priests and Roman Catholic priests becoming Episcopal
>> priests.  My own priest was a Roman Catholic priest who became an
>> Anglican priest.  There's a common saying in Anglican circles:
>> "We get the best of the Roman Catholic priests and Rome gets the
>> worst of ours."  By and large, I think that's true.  I've known several
>> Anglican clergy personally who have opted for Rome and they were
>> ill-suited for the priesthood.  Rome can have them.
>>
>> Cindy Smith
>> cms@dragon.com
>>
>
>Cindy,
>
>    The Roman Catholic priests (I assume Latin Rite) who left
>'Rome', did they then get married in the Anglican/Episcopal Church?
>Just wondering, as they did take a vow of celibacy.

 I can't speak for all priests; I imagine some get married, and some
don't.  My own priest became an Episcopalian long before he decided to
marry.  The Pope released him from his vow of celibacy.  Whether the
Pope always does this, I don't know.

>-Don
>trent!djm@jolt.att.com

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com
From: bf248@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jerry Renault)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: directions
Date: 25 Jan 1993 15:29:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bf248@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jerry Renault)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


where do you think the church is heading?  with the recent controversy
of the anglican church's inclusion of woman as bishops and the always topical
subjects of birth control and abortion, will the church change and adapt
to the times, or will there ultimately be two catholic churches, the
one based in rome and a more liberal american-based one?

i think that a big split is coming.

j.

-- 
+----+ +----+ +   + +----+ +----+       Jerry Renault
!    ! !    ! !\  ! !      !    !       bf248@po.cwru.edu
!----+ !    ! ! \ ! ! ---+ !    !       
!      !____! !  \! !____! !____!
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: The Real Presence
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:14:37 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <9301211941.AA24398@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM (Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50 21-Jan-1993 1409) writes:
>    The Council of Trent dogmatically defined, in an infallible statement,
>    that "transubstantiation" is the correct and necessary understanding of
>    the Real Presence.  "... let him be anathema who denies this ..."

No, that is misleading. The Council's primary aim is plainly to affirm the
real presence. If they meant what Greg Wolff is suggesting, they would have
SAID what he is suggesting. What we get instead is a (curiously) offhand
addendum ("... which is appropriately called transubstantiation.") That doesn't
look to me like a cast-iron declaration of the centrality or
indispensibility of transubstantiation; and Greg is forgetting that the
point of the inclusion of the T word was specifically to deny the Lutheran
doctrine of consubstantiation. It follows, I submit, that if the C-word
turns out to be philosophically untenable, then so does the T-word.

Martin Barry.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:03:13 -0700
From:         mlj@EVOLVING.COM
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence

> Could you please tell me what you see are the 'fundemental differences' in
> receiving the Sacrament.  Is it anything besides the validity of ordination -
>
> Joan Rasch   internet Rasch@c-h.bwh.harvard.edu

Joan, That is exactly it 'the validity of ordination'.

Before ascending into heaven, Christ promised to be with His Church always,
until the end of time, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
He would send the Holy Spirt to be a leader and guide for His Church.
     As promised, the Holy Spirt descended upon the Apostles on Pentecost,
fifty days after Easter, establishing the birthday of the Roman Catholic
Church, with St. Peter as its head.
         To this day, the Holy Spirt continues to lead and guide the Roman
Catholic Church, though our Pontiff, Pope John Paul II, who descends directly
from the unbroken line of leadership beginning with St. Peter himself.
     Because of this direct and unbroken line of leadership, Roman Catholics
possess the greatest treasure - the fullness of the Church which Christ
Himself established.
     Part of the hierarchy of the Church is the Bishops, whose leadership
comes under that of the Pope.  Because of their ability to ordain priests,
Roman Catholic Bishops possess the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders and
are our representatives of the Apostles.
     Each priest represents Christ Himself and helps to carry out Christ's
mission on earth, primarily through the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist, in which
Roman Catholics participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the greatest
legacy which Christ left His Church.

     As quoted from the Handbook for Today's Catholic, pg 22:

     As a visible society, the Roman Catholic Church is unique.  Other
Christian churches possess some very basic "elements" in common with it,
such as "one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all"
(Eph 4:5).  But as Vatcan II points out, "these elements, as gifts properly
belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism toward Catholic
unity" (The Church 8).

     Furthermore - and this is a decisive point regarding the uniqueness of
the Roman Catholic Church - Vatcan II states that "This Church, constituted
and organized in the world as as society, subsists in the Roman Catholic
Church..." (The Church 8).  This key statement teaches that the basic fullness
of the Church, the vital source of complete Christian unity in the future,
is found uniquely in the visible Roman Catholic Church.

I hope that I this answers your question.

Michael Johns  mlj@evolving.com
Xref: sparky bit.listserv.catholic:4522 alt.activism:21447
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:51:35 -0500
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Edward Schileebeecx (sp?) writings & Justification by Faith...

jww@EVOLVING.COM writes:
>I always figure if somebody uses an _argumentum_ad_hominem_, you just
>can't trust anything else he says, either.

A rather clever pun, Father, but you must learn to use a smiley or
someone might take you seriously;-) - J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: aiden@NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski)
Subject: Re: The Real Presence
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 06:11:31 GMT

In article <930126083340.2020262c@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>Steven Otlowski <aiden@NCOAST.ORG> writes:
>>God is Really and Actually present everywhere.
>
>Yes, but I believe it is the concencration level were concerned with
>here:-) - J.J.

Smiley noted, but none the less if God is Omnipresent, then God can not 
but be fully, really, and actually present everywhere.

Steve Otlowski-

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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:03:09 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: The Real Presence

"Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM> writes:

>              "URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM" at Jan 26, 93 11:01 am
>> If you only make a spiritual communion at a Roman Catholic Mass (In your
>> mind, not in your Hand:-), I don't really see your problem with receiving
>> a Host consecrated by a woman. The worst it could be would be merely a
>> spiritual communion. (I'd say the odds favor the Real Presence:-)
>>

>   The worst it could be is blasphemy.  Worship of a piece of bread
>instead of the Body of Christ.
>And, I didn't know we based theology in statistics.

(Elizabeth, take note: Splat!:-)

Thanks, Don, I appreciate your kind words. - J.J.
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From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re:      RE: Why is it?
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-21953]: jupiter
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:50:37 GMT


In article <9301210600.AA23021@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>,         "John R. Covert 21-Jan-1993 0018" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:
> 
> Traditionally (and still for Maronite Roman Catholics and Anglicans),
> Christmastide lasts exactly twelve days; Epiphany begins on the feast
> of the Epiphany (6 Jan).  In the new Latin Calendar, the feast of the
> Epiphany eliminates the 2nd Sunday after Christmas (it's traditional
> propers, for the Holy Family, got moved to the 1st Sunday after Christmas),
> and the Christmas season continues until the Baptism of the Lord, so
> Ordinary Time doesn't begin until the Monday.

I could be wrong, but I thought Epiphany got moved to a Sunday
only in the U.S. and Canada.  My understanding was that Epiphany
remains a Holy Day of Obligation on Jan. 6 in Central and South
American countries.  I think the idea was that the North American
bishops wanted to make New Year's Day a Holy Day of Obligation, and
so Epiphany got bumped.  In Latin American countries, Epiphany is
a much bigger deal than it is here.  In many places that's the day
presents are exchanged (or, at least, that's the way it was years
ago, with the spread of North American culture, that practice may
be fading out).

> I thought anyone attending Mass "assisted."  I think only priests and
> bishops wear stoles; what a deacon wears is probably called a sash.

Isn't it called a "dalmatic," or is that something else?

Ray
lang@cs.tulane.edu

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