HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:09:01 GMT

In article <7206@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> roman@sparc17.hri.com (Roman
Budzianowski) writes:

>In article <1992Sep10.155323.29713@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>> But all I did was defend and reiterate what the newpaper article had done.
>> It was the person who complained about the article that claimed the
>> article presumed collective guilt.  I don't/didn't agree and defended the
>> newspaper.  In the reworded letter I hacked I made no statements about
>> _ALL_ Poles, only about those that would revise/hide that part of Polish
>> history.  Find the article and read it again.

>Let me clarify : Because there are Poles who would like to "revise/hide"
>the history of anti-semitism in Poland, and because there were Poles who
>didn't help Jews in WWII, and because there were Poles who collaborated
>with Germans - you believe that the German-Nazi camps on occupied Polish
>teritory should be called "Polish concentration camp", and at the same
>time you believe that Germans were OK because they "followed orders" ?

As I've not mentioned the Germans in my discussion, you could not have
gotten the idea from me.  What you need is not clarification, but
separation.  These are two different issues and are neither comparable nor
relevant.  It is as bad as the jerk that tried to move to the tangent of
the Palestinians during the discussion of Polish historical and
sociological antisemitism.

Second.  I don't think I'd say _should_ be called "Polish concentration
camps." But I do believe they _could_ be called "Polish concentration
camps." The context we were given in the article made it clear under
who's orders the camps were started.  I posted because I felt
complaints about it, especially those as vociferous as we saw, were
unwarranted -- to the point of sounding revisionistic.

If you want to discuss the issue of following orders, be my guest.  I
recommend a separate thread as it is largely irrelevant to the
discussion of the existence and manifestation of Polish antisemitism,
except, of course, when it makes a handy excuse to kill Jews.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: The Rebbe Rings Twice
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:15:10 GMT

I have no objection whatsoever to the weekly appearance of L'Chaim on
scj.  However, do we need two copies?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire auditorium		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish ***.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: defee@tukkasotka.tut.fi (Irek Defee)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 06:50:59 GMT

In article <goldberg.715809502@techunix.technion.ac.il> goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:
>But if you like, as a first rough approximation, I will ask my mother what was
>the proportion of non Jewish poles that were throwing stones at her in the
>Holy City of Kielce, on her way to school, during  WWI and WWII, after her
>father, whose name I carry, had died from typhus in a camp where he had been
>jailed as guarantee for the Jews of that Holy City by the non antisemitic
>rulers of 1920 Kielce / Poland, when she was just 10 years old.

>By the way, when was the last time you were stoned for being, perhaps,
>some non Jewish Pole?

One more enlightening point: the picture of a unified f r o n t  of happy
Poles stoning Jews is FALSE. Before the WWII, ethnic and social conflicts
in Poland were common and very serious. Police was often s h o o t i n g
protesters, during the 30's when the rules of militarized de facto junto
(which sponsored antisemitic campaign), most opposition was in concentration
c a m p s. And it is easy to check that the most serious ethnic conflict
in Poland before WWII was not with Jews, but with Ukrainians: apart of 
ethnic hatress, there was almost a regular war by army and police (the
reason was Ukrainian aspiration to independence). 

>        Yaaqov Yossef grandson of Yaaqov Yossef of Kielce,
>        the place of the 1946 pogrom.

After the WWII, situation was even worse: apart of the communist-sponsored
antisemitism and pogroms and certain times there was a 50 ys long t o t a l 
pogrom of a l l ethnic minorities, oposition, protesting workers. It was not 
uncommon to see real pogroms or, even tanks, in action. 

Thus, the answer to your question is that it was really quite easy to be 
treated in even more serious way than stoning, being ethnic Pole, belonging
to any different ethnic group, just by having a different opinion.


-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:07:59 GMT

In <1992Sep3.125345.23275@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> weiner@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Merril Weiner) writes:

>It might arise from the minhag of not saying Kaddish when both of
>your parents are living (sounds more like superstition than minhag).

I've always wanted to know how to distinguish between Torah and
superstition.  "al tiftach peh lasatan" appears in the Midrash.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Location of Eden (Re: Torah In A Torah Context)
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:12:09 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Sep14.173440.637530@locus.com> hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>In article <BuHr3A.97A@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Rubin Herman) writes:
>>In article <BuDDFA.E8v@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward) writes:
>>>[H Rubin wondering why Eden has not been found]

>>>Perhaps the answer lies in 2 Kings 6:8-23.  (Specifically vs. 15-17).

>>God can keep us from seeing Eden.  But then why tell us so much about it,
>>and why have it guarded by winged creatures instead of just putting up
>>a force field?  Or even just remove it from earth?



>Who says G-d didn't put up a force field? These angels are "spiritual
>beings", not visible to us. So if you were to translate these angels
>as a type of force field, I would certainly not argue with you.

Look at the description again in Genesis.  It indicates that Eden can
be seen, and must be guarded to keep man out.  So why have we not been
able to see it, if in fact it exists?

Also, the beings guarding Eden are described.  It does not say that they
cannot be seen, and essentially states that without these guardians people
will be likely to enter Eden.

These suggestions make sense from our standpoint.  But if the Torah is 
the literal word of God, we should not have to directly contradict anything
written thers.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: lynnef@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Lynne Axel Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rain Relief Fund
Date: 10 Sep 92 23:37:32 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.


Ronald Greenberg writes:

This may be a great cause, but I wouldn't mail any money to an
organization you haven't heard of and don't know to have a good record
of getting money to the right place.  I would even be careful about
where I address a check made out to a reputable organization.  (I once
received a solicitation for a donation to the Heart Association, I
think it was.  But it came from somebody down the block who had
enclosed a stamped, hand-addressed return envelope with her address.
I wasn't sure if this was a scam or just a very stupid logistical
scheme on the part of the organization; the mailing did include what
looked like an official, professionally printed little piece of paper
about the organization.  Any thoughts?)

(me now)
The Heart Association really does this.  They get someone in a neighborhood
and send them a list of addresses and prepared letters.  The poor sucker is
supposed to send them out, and then send the checks back to the Heart
Association.  The Leukemia Society does this too.  (How do I know?  My sucker
husband said he would do it!)
--
Lynne Fitzsimmons		lynnef@tekig1.pen.tek.com

"Second star on the right and straight on till morning" - Barrie, Pan, Kirk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: On the 'natural' order (was Yom Kippur and Tu b'Av)
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 11:37:05 +0200

On: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:16:21 GMT
gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) commented:

>ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>	But, on the other hand, I thought Yom Kippur is one of the days we
>	do not get married, because we would then be mixing happiness with
>	happiness, and the happiness of the holiday would detract from the
>	happiness of the wedding day.  (I'm not talking of the marriages
>	which would or do occur immediately after Yom Kippur.)
>
>Since the wedding day is considered a personal Yom Kippur for the
>chatan and kallah (bride and groom), all Jewish weddings are held
>immediately after YK.

Just a minor point.  The order was changed in translation, "chatan and
kallah"  became   "bride  and  groom".    Just  a  mistake,   or  some
uncomfortable feeling when using a modern western language to stick to
the usual preference given in religious texts to the males?

Just curious.

>-Don Gertler

  Michael Shimshoni
From: rahman@ces.cwru.edu (Rahman A. Soomro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Rain Relief Fund
Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:38:16 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: easy.ces.cwru.edu


Dear friends,

Recent rains in Pakistan have caused devastating effects on the 
daily life of the Pakistani people. Scores of people have lost there
lives and more than a million have been homeless.

	I appeal to you to help our brothers and sisters in need
and donate some money to help them. Please send your contribution
(tax deductible) with your name and also I request you to collect 
donations from any source -- your colleagues at work, friends, business
associates, customers, persons from any nationalities and backgrouds
to help people in trouble. 

	We are tying you help suffering peoples, who are suffering
from disease and malnutrition.

Please mail your contributions to:

Pakistan Rain Relief Fund
4105 Providence drive
St. Charles, MO 63304
USA


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: afrydman@granpa.enet.dec.com (Av Frydman)
Subject: Re: Patrilineal Descent
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:49:50 GMT


In article <1992Sep10.204014.20457@nynexst.com>, schwartz@nynexst.com (S. H. Schwartz) writes...
>In article 18877@cc.gatech.edu, amir@leopard.gatech.edu (amir) writes:
>>I don't understand the argument here. It seems that Orthodoxy also
>>allows patrilineal descent if it comes with public confirmation of
>>faith (before beit din, with tevila and mila as appropriate).
> 
>This is not patrilineal descent.  This is conversion.  The fact that the
>biological father is Jewish does not affect the conversion in any way.
>It -might- affect the acceptability of the candidate for conversion,
>if he (or she) had grown up among Jews.
>---
>Steven H. Schwartz		Expert Systems Laboratory


It was a joke, Shimmon.  Amir, please include :^) for the "humor-challenged".



Av






Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Mac David
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:04:45 GMT

<EXG106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> A good place to get shawarma in Jerusalem, is a place called "king of falafel
> and shawarma" (Unless they've changed their name or moved) by the midrachov, on
> the same street that "migdal ha'ir" and carvel icecream are.

Is this the same place that makes that terrific 'eish tanur?

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: lazer@intacc.uucp (Lazer Danzinger)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 00:12:09 GMT
Organization: Inter/Access' Matrix BBS

Amir writes:
>The Sepharadim have a consistent rule for the mourners' Kadish:
>	After Tehilim the mourners recite "Kadish Yehe Shelama" 
>	After Midrash the mourners recite "Kadish Al Israel"
>
>The first one is called by Asjkenazim "Kadish Yatom" and the second is
>called by Ashkenazim "Kadish deRabanan". This is also why after divrei
>Torah it is customary to say the Midrash of Rabbi Hanania ben Akashia,
>followed by Kadish Al Israel.
>
Interesting. In Nusach Ari, we also say Kaddish Yatom after Aleinu, after
Tehillim, then Kaddish De'Rabbanan after Mishnayot. Mishnayot is concluded
also with the recitation of Rebbi Chanania ben Akashia....

When no mourner (or Baal Yahrzeit) is present during the morning service, 
our custom is to have someone who is missing a parent recite the Kaddish 
De'Rabbanan after Ein Kelokeinu, the Kaddish Yatom after Aleinu and after 
Tehillim -- but Mishnayot is not said. If no mourner (or baal Yahrzeit) is
present, then these Kaddeishim are not recited.
is not said.
>it does not follow those rules.
>
>What the Ashkenazi rules are is a mystery to me...
>
>-- Ami
>
>
>					
>					-Amihood Amir (amir@cc.gatech.edu)


----
Rabbi Lazer Danzinger
Mashiach -- Be a Part of It!
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Hebrew OCR
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:23:49 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <92251.234305CFRQC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, ToraByte <CFRQC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
> Does anybody know of, seen, have become aware of in any shape or form of
> Hebrew OCR (Optical Character Recognition) scanner software for the IBM
> (and Macintosh would be helpful too :-)). Thanx. Kol Tuv. L'hit.
>                                          Zev Itzkowitz
> P.S. Please respond either to me or on the net, tho to me personally would
>     be easier.

An Israeli company, Ligature Ltd., POB 3640 Jerusalem, has LiOCR, an OCR
program that can *read* Hebrew. Their fax number is: +972-2-385706

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL







Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: MOVIE:  School Ties
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:14:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.150126.5395@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
friedenb@ruby.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg) writes:

>Last night I saw a promotional advertisement for a new movie to be released
>soon in the US. It is called 'School Ties.'  

>This is what I learned from the promo:  A University (or High School Prep)
>student is an outstanding athlete, student leader, good student, 
>and good looking.  He is "found out" to be Jewish, and is deluged by
>anti-Semitism.  The commercial shows him being beaten-up, and another
>scene shows graffitti in his dorm room with a swastika and the words 
>'Damn Jew, Go Home' (or something close to that).

>Anyone heard anything of this movie?

As part of a 15 second piece on each of the "important" movies coming out
this fall, NPR (National Public Radio for the non-US readers of the net
:-) mentioned it, broadcast a sound-bite that was an antisemitic
diatribe one of the characters in the film uses, and mentioned that
anttisemitism is the theme of the movie.  I am somewhat concerned that
we'll be hearing a lot of these sound-bites, many without sufficient
context (the NPR report was borderline) which may further increase the
acceptability of antisemitic remarks.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:07:35 GMT
Organization: Courant Institute, New York University

Re Hayim and rejection of 1% of tradition == rejecting all of tradition:

Well, that's very smug.  Regular Orthodox reject Hasidic traditions, Hasidim
reject regular Orthodox traditions, same for Ashkenazim vs Sephardim, etc.
Would you say these groups reject all of tradition?  Variant minhagim abound
in normative Judaism.

     ---+  ||  --+  --+
        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
     ---+-                          baker@robocop.nyu.edu
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur and Tu b'Av
Date: 5 Sep 92 00:12:33 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

Well, I can't say anything about Tu b'Av, because I don't know much
about it, but I have an idea why there would be festivities on Yom
Kippur.

On the 10 days between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, God is judging us,
and placing us in either the book of Life or the book of Death.  At
the end of Yom Kippur, He has decided.  It is a time that we know that
the decision has been made.  Just like when you finish that final
exam, not knowing whether you passed or failed, you feel good just
knowing that the ordeal is over and a decision has been made.

Of course, I can't imagine how anyone can celebrate after a 24 hour
fast!


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "TELEPHONE, n.  An Invention of the devil which
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   abrogates some of the advantages of making a
 ((|,)                          disagreeable person keep his distance."
  ~|~                              --- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On Orthodox Monopoly
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 9 Sep 92 05:54:49 GMT
Keywords: Rambam, sacrifices

In <1992Sep8.170818.23538@cc.gatech.edu> amir@leopard.gatech.edu (amir) writes:

>The much quoted passage of the Rambam in More Nevuchim about the need
>for sacrifices in the past (and future) puzzled me for many years.

While I, too, am confused, and we can speculate all we want in the
meantime, I am quite prepared to wait and see what happens.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       Amar Rav Nachman Bar Yitzchak:
 |__/__/_/     "P'amim sheadam ba b'sharav
 |warren@      v'rochetz afilu b'mai mishrah"
/ nysernet.org 			Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 09:01:53 GMT

mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:

>In article <matthew.715668630@munna> matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>>As far as I know, between the two world wars the Jewish population in
>>Poland markedly increased.

>And what do you conclude from this, other than that the Jews were not
>being starved to death or forcibly inhibited from family life in large
>numbers? 

>--Mark

The jewish population in Poland rose from ~6% to ~10% of the population
(~35 million) between the two world wars, mainly due to immigration
from other countries (e.g., from the Soviet Union alone came at least
~600000). All these people were not forced to come to Poland. They came
on their own. They were given polish citizenships. Why would they
migrate to such an anti-semitic country instead of a tolerant one, and
why would such an anti-semitic country take them in when other tolerant
countries would not? I don't know, it's beyond me. Can you explain?

MB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski)
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 20:27:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.124816.6393@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <matthew.715307895@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek
>Blasikiewicz) writes:
>
>>Also, it is much easier to save 0.2% of the population of a country by
>>hiding them, than it is to save 10%. Don't you think so?
>
>Especially when at all levels there is the desire to do so.
>
>But my point is that ~99% of that .2% was saved.  Attempts to save
>Polish Jewry came nowhere near that (even if I accept your .2 and 10
>percents and even if you cut my 99%).

They do not have ANY sense these numbers above. The truth is:
1. Jews were living in Poland during many centuries.
2. They were also living there during the time between the two
   World Wars.
3. They had their property there and as a nationality were
   generally recognized as richer than Poles. 
4. Poland was very badly prepared to the IIWW, and EACH nationality
   living there was in part RESPONSIBLE for that situation.
5. Although soldiers in our army did their very best in September 1939,
   the whole campaign was lost thoroughly. Main reason: very poor
   preparation.
6. Starting October 1939 Poles had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say in their
   own country (this ended only in 1989). 
7. Starting October 1939 Germans launched their program to get rid
   in the longer term of any nation except themselves from the occupied
   Polish territory.
8. Jews were first in the queue in the GERMAN program, Poles were the
   next.
9. ONLY due to their defeat in 1945, Germans failed in their plans.
10. THE BILL for what happened between Sep. 1939, and May 1945 
    should go to: - Germans
                  - Polish government before 1939
                  - People who owned industry in Poland before 1939
    In NEITHER case, Poles as a nation should be in any part kept responsible 
    for what happened to Jews during IIWW.

    Charging us with things like this is simply funny, especially when
    taking into account, that for us the IIWW ended in 1989.

Andrzej Zaleski

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: More mitzvos?
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:15:38 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <88431@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.201425.16593@njitgw.njit.edu>, dic5340@hertz (David Charlap) writes:
>>And what's wrong with Chassidut?  Don't condemn them because they wear
>>black clothing and observe more Mitzvot than you do (probably).
>
>But it's forbidden to observe more mitzvot than the taryag.

First, I said "probably".

Second, I doubt you do all 613 of them.  As a matter of fact, few
people can, since there is no Temple.

Third, I never said the Chassidim do more than 613.  But they do more
than any other group of people do.  At least as far as I've been able
to see.



-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "LECTURER, n.  One with his hand in your pocket,
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   his tongue in your ear, and his faith in your
 ((|,)                          patience."
  ~|~                              --- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish