HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin)
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
Organization: Student
	<1992Aug11.165325.20936@burrhus.harvard.edu>
	<1992Aug11.222910.18582@corax.udac.uu.se>
	<1992Aug12.193543.11942@burrhus.harvard.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:57:31 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.193543.11942@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

>In article <1992Aug11.222910.18582@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>>Actually, it's generally believed that the sparse, 16 character futhark
>>was a deliberate writing reform which someone probably put a great deal of
>>careful work into (since it actually worked very well).
>>It didn't "evolve" from the 24 character futhark, but appeared rather
>>suddenly sometime around the year 800.

>	That's interesting - I hadn't heard that, but in hindsight it makes
>sense.

Hmm... maybe I was a bit careless about the dating of the new futhark.
Sometime during the 8th century might be more correct. Anyway, maybe the
best evidence that it wasn't evolved, but rather invented is the famous
stone at the church in R|k's parish, "R|kstenen", in Sweden. It's carved
with both the old and the new futhark, not mixed, but different parts of
the stone are carved with different types of runes. The carver obviously
knew both the old and new futhark well. (It's dated to somewhere around
800 AC.)  He was a bit of a show-off; appart from the two futharks he also
used three different types of (simple) ciphers...
(The stone is interesting in other aspects as well. Although we can read
all of it, the contents is very obscure and have been subject to much
debate through the years.)

>>Later this new futhark did evolve new runes anyway, by using "dotted"
>>runes to distinguish between different sounds, and using different versions
>>of the same rune to mean different sounds. (In the end they even mixed in
>>some Latin characters, in Dalarna, Sweden, where the runes where used
>>longer than anywhere else, up to the 19th century.)

>	Interesting how they first reduced and then reexpanded.

Maybe the futhark just evolved freely without control among the common
people after the introduction of the Christian religion, or maybe they
just thought the more ornate style looked better on monuments; the custom
to raise stones came into fashion in Sweden in the 11th century, and the
number of stones "exploded", sort of. (At the same time a very simplified
type of runes evolved, but it wasn't att all suited for carving in stone,
but probably quite efficient for fast carving in wood with a short knife.)

--
 |\/|\/|\/| Per-Erik Martin,
 |  |  |/\| Department of Computer Systems, Uppsala University,
 |/\|  |  | Email: pem@minsk.DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<hberg.167@polisci.umn.edu> <1992Aug6.033841.1883@mits.mdata.fi>
	<hberg.169@polisci.umn.edu> <1992Aug13.130122.26995@dde.dk>
	<1992Aug13.223221.4798@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 07:36:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.223221.4798@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> johnson@sleipnir.
mnesouth.corp.mot.com (Mark Johnson) writes:

   >(For the humor impaired:  No, I'm not Politically Correct.  At most times
   >I try to be as Politically Erroneous as possible, without offending
   >anyone but the Politically Correct.)

  Humor? Well, if you say so. But isn't it a bit tired? I mean, whatever
the revolting aspects of "political correctness", they are by now, at
least on the net, as nothing compared to the self-satisfied chant of
"down with political correctness" so boringly heard on all sides.
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Date: 13 Aug 92 11:44:16 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <etxmow.713609091@garboc34>, etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:
|> 
|> sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
|> >   identities." These people had all made conscious decisions to move to Sweden
|> >   for primarily economic reasons (Only one person in my class could be 
|> >   honestly described as a "political" refugee. I promise you that.). I see no
|> 
|> 
|> 	Don't say this in Sweden, mind you ! Then you'll be suspected of
|> 	being a Ny Demokrati follower - the most political uncorrect
|> 	thing to be in Sweden. The political correct view is that all
|> 	immigrants that come to Sweden are political refugees, and to
|> 	suggest that some (if not most) have economical reasons to come,
|> 	is considered almost racist. 
|> 
|> 
|> >Just my humble opinions,
|> 
|> >Susan Bradley
|> >sooz@iastate.edu
|> 
|> 
|>        Mats Winberg
|>        etxmow@tore.ericsson.se
--


I can't see anything wrong in people from outside Europe/USA moving to
Scandinavia for economical reasons. After all, nobody react when people
from Europe or USA ("whities") do !

In fact, the by far largest foreign group in Norway is danes and
swedes, and nobody grumble about that.

But their skin is white.....


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etsoosal@lily16.uwaterloo.ca (Erik Soosalu)
Subject: What Gold did Estonia win in the Olympics ??
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 13:23:41 GMT


  This is a little behind the times, but I would like to know.  I saw in the paper
that they won the gold, but it didn't say what event.


Just mail me the response, as I won't have a chance to scan the newgroup over the
next few weeks.

Thanks,
-- 
erik soosalu
etsoosalu@cayley.uwaterloo.ca


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin)
Subject: Re: Codex Runicus
Organization: Student
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:35:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.155235.19457@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

>	Regarding the "Codex Runicus", a vellum manuscript on which runes
>are written in pen and ink, I have gathered the following information.

Ha! I *knew* Codex Runicus had to be refered to in *some* of my books.
I found it in R.W.V. Elliott's "Runes". (It didn't occur to me to look
there first; Elliott is a bit "English-centered", and a bit to quick
to state his opinions and interpretations as facts in some cases, so
I rarely use it except for references to English runes.)
As it turned out, it would have been easier to look it up in a good
general encyclopedia... :-)

>So there we are.  There are some runes written in books in pen and ink,
>though they are clearly something of an anomaly.

Indeed. Not really "lots of" them as someone said... Btw, in my earlier
postings, by "paper" I of course meant anything "paper-like" (as opposed
to wood, stone and metal), in case that wasn't obvious.

Anyway, thanks for the references, and thanks to the people who mailed refs.
Too bad I didn't knew about it before, when I was in Copenhagen just a week
ago. Well, have to see it another time then...

--
 |\/|\/|\/| Per-Erik Martin,
 |  |  |/\| Department of Computer Systems, Uppsala University,
 |/\|  |  | Email: pem@minsk.DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Sami population
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:52:50 GMT

In article <etxmow.713781073@garboc34> etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>>In article <HAAVARDF.92Aug12195806@gluon.uio.no>, haavardf@gluon.uio.no (Haavard Fosseng) writes:
>>> The sami are culturally distinct from Finns, and have been so for all of
>>> recorded history. They originally inhabited more or less all of Scandinavia,
>>> but were pushed aside by people coming in from the south.

>>Hmm, are you sure of this?  Did they inhabit Denmark too?  I had
>>the impression they remained mostly in the northern areas, spreading
>>to Jamtland/Harjedalen/Dalarna (central-western Sweden) only in the
>>16th century, or thereabout.  What time frame are you referring to?


>     I've heard, that recent archeological findings show that
>     the "southerners" (pre-historic Swedes) had settled in Norrland
>     _before_ the Samis arrived from the east. That is, the presence
>     of non-Samis in northern Scandinavia is much older than previously
>     thought. Can't give you any sources though...

I don't know what the latest on this story is, but there are  some fragments 
of evidence for the Saami having been there first:

1. Placenames such as Villmanstrand/Lappeenranta in SE Finland.
2. The story about Malm| pyttar; they may have been Saami.
3. The Komsa culture in N Norway, which actually made some scholars 
(Konrad Nielsen, eg) to speculate that the Saami had survived the last ice 
age on the Atlantic coast.

By the way (and speaking of ethnic designations), the settled Saami 
population referred to their nomadic cousins as Saaman - and made it sound 
slightly derogatory!  That was back in the 60s, when I was heavily into 
things Lappish.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser)
Subject: Re: Pirates & Privateers (was Re: Vikings savages)
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:13:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.225414.7518@mits.mdata.fi>, karttu@mits.mdata.fi 
(Antti Karttunen) explains privateers ad pirates and the similiarity and
differences between both:

|>PS. Does anybody know has there been any real pirates on Baltic Sea?
|>I only know this old Finnish ballad called "Rosvo-Roope", but I doubt
|>its value as evidence. ;-)

Klaus Stoertebecker and the "Vitalienbrueder"

During its heyday ~1350 , the Hanse had a crippling grip on the commerce in 
the Baltic through economic measures such as boycott, tariffs and other 
strongarm tactics. Its political power grew so strong that in the Peace of 
Strahlsund the Hanse managed to get a veto right on the Danish royal 
ascendancy.

During that time, it was very profitable to either smuggle goods into 
boycotted towns and countries, or to hunt down the Hanse cogs, or both.
This is what the Vitalienbrueder (Victuals Brotherhood), also known as 
Likendeeler (equal sharers, also equalisers), were doing with too much 
success, specifically around Rostock, Wismar and Luebeck and Stockholm.

They supplied the beleaguered Stockholm between 1389 and 1395 with victuals,
hence the name, and pillaged Wisby in 1392.

In 1402, the chief of the Vitalienbrueder, Klaus Stoertebecker, was captured
before Helgoland, according to legend due to treason, and was executed
with all of his crew on the Schindanger of Hamburg.

If You believe the folklore, they were a mixture of Robin Hoods and
Real Heavy Baaad Dudes. Take Your pick.

|>Antti Karttunen       --  $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J  (et{ty|t|n)
|>karttu@mits.mdata.fi  --  Apatheist, although not particularly proud of it.

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
-F35- ZEUS DESY/Freiburg  Bitnet:   POSER@DESYVAX
bldg.1b-235, Notkestr.85  Hepnet:   VXDESY::POSER (13313::Poser)
   D-2000 Hamburg 52      Tel.: -49-40-8998-2004
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: linnan@niksula.hut.fi (Matti Linnanvuori)
Subject: Re: Moving to Finland
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:04:31


  Generally speaking, Finland does not have any immigration quotas.
To be able to work in Finland, you have to make an agreement with a
firm that wants to employ you. Then an application of residence and
work permit is sent to the nearest Finnish Embassy. The Ministry of
Labour makes a statement whether there are unemployed residents in
the same field. At the moment, getting a work permit this way is
very hard because of the unemployment rate at 15%.

  Other ways to work in Finland are: a marriage with a Finn, studies
(temporary residence permit only), being an ex-Finnish citizen or
child or grandchild of one, being an ethnic Finn, or applying for 
a political refuge (very hard, you'll have to prove you are being
persecuted by your country's authorities.)
From: ct@dde.dk (Claus Tondering)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Another Finnish Question
Date: 13 Aug 92 13:01:22 GMT
Organization: Dansk Data Elektronik A/S

hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) writes:

>Using the native name is, of course, the politically correct thing to do.  

This reminds me of a fact that has puzzled me for a long time. Why
do some people insist on saying "Roma" instead of "Rome" and "Beijing"
instead of "Peking", but they wouldn't dream of saying "Deutschland"
instead of "Germany" or "Espan~a" instead of "Spain".

Why is it politically correct to use "Myanmar" rather than "Burma",
but OK to refer to "China" instead of "Zhong guo" (spelling?????)?

-- 
Claus Tondering
Dansk Data Elektronik A/S, Herlev, Denmark
E-mail: ct@dde.dk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Childrend`s reading ability / was Re: What is Norden?
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:33:01 GMT
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Distribution: soc
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm

In article <1992Aug16.162333.23409@tdb.uu.se>, t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman) writes:
>leisti@cc.helsinki.fi (Teemu Leisti) writes:
>: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>: 
>: >   (This was mentioned on the radio in connection with an international
>: > investigation of the reading skills of 8 and 9 year old children
>: > from 30 countries, in which the US did best, followed by Finland and
>: > Sweden.)
>: 
>: Here they told us that Finnish kids did best!  Who is being lied to?
>
>According to Dagens Nyheter (morning paper in Sweden) it was Finland who did
>best.

And USA "cheated" - only children having English as their native 
language participated in the survey. Apparently 10% of the Swedish kids 
were "immigrants' children". I guess that means that at least one of 
their parents were born outside Sweden?

Tomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
From: poplan@registry.adelaide.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Trying to find ...
Date: 21 Aug 92 06:44:28 GMT
Organization: Office of the Registry, University of Adelaide

Oonshil,
God Dag. Jeg hayter Mikel Rev. Jeg boor i Sor Australia. Jeg snakker ikke 
Norske. I'm trying to find out if it's possible to find the following 
person on EMail. He may have left his place of employment, as he was there
in January 1990. 

Per Kr Michelsen - Handball player for Stavanger SIF and student loans officer
at the University i Stavanger.

Tusen tak,
Michael Fox
University of Adelaide
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Sami population
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:19:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.160706.1535@corax.udac.uu.se> I wrote:
> The time when the relatives of Conan the Barbarian saw the light of
> day in Jutland, Denmark, perhaps? (1/2 :-)

Please disregard the above paragraph, smiley or no smiley.  It
appears I have mixed up some ancient tribes with similar names,
so my joke was plain misleading.  Sorry for the confusion.
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Date: 17 Aug 92 07:33:52 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <sooz.713839561@vincent1.iastate.edu>, sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
|> 
|>    Your apology is very warmly accepted, and may I offer my own regrets at the
|> misunderstaning? 

:-)

|>    Although I don't mean to make excuses for what may well indeed be racist
|> views and policies, I would like to say that I can completely understand the
|> fears of people hesitant to allow "non-whites" into countries like Norway and 
|> Sweden. It _is_ usually more than just a matter of skin colour. The Nordic 
|> countries have highly homogeneous cultures. For centuries, pretty much everyone
|>
|> (Much deleted)
|> 
|> Susan Bradley
|> sooz@iastate.edu
|> 
--


OK, I know what you mean, and most of it makes sense. My opinion,
however, is that people in Norway (can't speak about Finland,
Sweden...) are (were ?) a kind, but afraid people. Afraid of all that
don't fit into the norwegian "meatball and brown sauce for dinner"
tradition.

The norwegian people was kind to all the non-christians in Africa
("they don't know better, poor people"), but look at how minorities
inside Norway have been treated up through history (the saami people,
jews, ....)

So I think the norwegian people should know more than themselves. Even
if it hurts !-) And now many do, and I think that works OK, mostly.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:14:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.225731.18241@corax.udac.uu.se>, pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin) writes:
> Maybe the futhark just evolved freely without control among the common
> people after the introduction of the Christian religion, or maybe they
> just thought the more ornate style looked better on monuments; the custom
> to raise stones came into fashion in Sweden in the 11th century, and the
> number of stones "exploded", sort of. (At the same time a very simplified
> type of runes evolved, but it wasn't att all suited for carving in stone,
> but probably quite efficient for fast carving in wood with a short knife.)

Were the runes ever used on paper or similar material (perhaps in
Dalarna), i.e. written with something like a pen?  If so, did that
contribute to the development of the glyphs, and how?
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Reply-To: bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE
Organization: Konrad Zuse-Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:07:25 GMT

Reidar Husmo writes in article <3848@keele.keele.ac.uk>
>Kirsti/Kirsten
>Nameday 13 Nov
> [...]
>Exactly what 'nameday' means I don't really know. Probably a remnant from
>a belief that each deity/saint had their own day or some such.

A nameday is the death day of a saint of the Catholic or the Orthodox churches,
in this case probably the death day of a St. Christine
(but I don't know anything about this person.)
It is believed that a saint comes into heaven at this day,
so it's his actual birthday, in a theological sense.
It is also believed that he prays for all the ones named after him.

In some catholic regions, for instance in Poland,
all women named Kristina would celebrate Nov 13 in much the same way, 
with presents and such,
as the usual birthday is celebrated in other regions.
In Germany this custom is rarely practiced any more,
even in catholic areas.
And in Scandinavia, as I see, nobody even heard of it.

Something different:
When I read the translation of what Kirsti/Kristina stands for,
I wondered where this characterization came from:
>Kirsti/Kirsten stands for safety. Quiet, stable and with an infinite
>patience she'll be the cornerstone of any family. But if she ever gets
>angry, the earth itself will start to shake.
Sounds pretty much like a characterization of Kristin Lavransdatter,
the trilogy of Sigrid Undset.

Mechthild Stoer

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Summary: Public ownership does not imply unlimited access
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 20:22:22 GMT

From various participants:
> >>    so next year they will charge an entrance fee to
> >>    the festival area to keep the numbers of people down...
> 
> >What do you think of this? Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
> >pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?
> 
> Well, they *did* this in Kalmar, wasn't it, year before last.

I can't see that there is anything unlawful or even strange about
temporarily (or even permanently) charging a fee for entrance to
an area that is publicly owned.  There are plenty of areas which
you simply can't enter, fee or no fee, even as they are owned by
the state (such as a military base).  I believe there are publicly
owned museums where you have to pay an entrance fee, as well as
publicly owned bus companies that charge you for transport.

The streets of Stockholm (or any other Swedish town) normally
don't charge you fees, because that's considered an impractical
way of going about the business, not because you have stock in
them.  Just as they can close off part of the street to build a
bus terminal or whatever, they can temporarily reallocate it for
some other use (such as a festival area, or even let somebody
rent it for entirely private business).

Now, if they were to enclose your home or your workplace with
this area and charge you a fee for going to work, then I might
agree that you'll have some practical problem to solve...  But
you can't just walk away with any park bench you like simply
because you are one of the 674,418 owners of it. :-)
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: kokeilua
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:30:51 GMT



q
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic