Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk (Bill Burgar)
Subject: Seeking Feedback.
Reply-To: bburgar@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 17:00:01 +0000

sbs@fns-nc1.fns.com (Syd B. Seifert) writes


>to teach efficiency and effectiveness if movement.  The Shotokan thread
>has suggested to me that some (most?) forms of M.A. teach at least
>a few moves that are more for show and that won't necessarily be useful
>(or perhaps can lead to injury) in sparring.  Thus confirming the
>teachings I received in that dojo.


To the best of my knowledge "proper" shotokan (and any other reputable
style) karate has no techniques for show. However, many karateka and
instructors will add extra bits and pieces to make it look (they think)
good. In actual fact the original deceptively simple form is the best.


>form that counts but the sensei....  Well, I tried to go with an empty
>cup, but so much of what we did went against the basic principles that
>I'd learned that my mind and body have quickly become a confused mess.
...
>What were some of the basic principles from my old dojo?
>        1.  Maintain your balance
>        2.  Never stand still or move backwards; move towards the "light"
>        3.  Never expose your blood supply
>        4.  Always respect other humans
>        5.  When a person physically, mentally, or emotionally abuses
>                you or another person, they cease to be human and
>                are an object  (chill)
>        6.  Be able to leave a battle without bruises, scratches,
>                or other injury (this means also not to develop calluses)


My general view of these principles is that they are somewhat
restrictive; they limit your options. So I'm not surprised that many
of the new things you were learning went against them.


2- Why? going forward is good sometimes, but sideways, up, down and
backward movements also have their value.


5- No comment - suffice to say I don't go along with this.


6- It is highly unlikely that you can ever walk away from an encounter
without some form of injury.


>SOOO - my confusion lies here:  I do not understand the point of learning
>inefficient or ineffective moves, katas, forms, blocks, rituals (answer
>"yes sir" loudly and count loudly to show confidence (?!!)).  The
>inconsistencies and non-sense of the moves has made it impossible for me to
>get much out of the instruction.  What am I missing here?
>What do "pure" forms of M.A. have to offer that justify teaching
>"impure" moves (those that may be inconsistent with their own philosophies
>or with those that just plain make sense).  I welcome ideas and feedback!


I think you will find that given sufficent study the movements that
you consider nonsensicle now will become blindingly obvious in a few
years time. I think that what you are missing is that you just haven't
given it enough time to understand it properly. For example in Chess
an advanced player may sacrifice his Queen; the novice would not
understand this and would think that the advanced player's technique
was ineffective. Very shortly the novice would hear the words
"check mate" and would realise that the technique was very effective.


Dakin writes:
>The advantage to using a standard fist is that when you teach
>beginners they don't injure themselves.  I concentrate on simplifying
>fighting styles, trying to make them simple and effective at the
>same time.


Agreed - for beginners. I would never teach the stuff that I am working
on to beginners. It is important for beginners to get a sound basic
training. However, I feel it is most important for more advanced
students to research other areas. You cannot hold your own development
back for the sake of teaching beginners. I urge you to trial the "index
finger over" fist for say 6 months, I did and I like it alot, although
to start with it was really naff. But after much brusing on the makiwara
it is really much better (for me) than the standard fist.


>Striking to the eye is an option with a finger jab, etc., but I
>doubt I'd ever do it.  I just don't want to poke somebody's eye
>out.  As for the eyebrow, just how do you strike that?  In my
>mind's eye, I remember Mike Tyson breaking his hand in that
>bareknuckle fight he had a few years back.  He punched the guy -- who
>had several stitches and a black eye -- just above the eye and
>broke his hand on the guy's forehead (anybody seen "Gladiator"?).


>Dakin


and


Tom Swiss writes:
>     Anyway, why hit someone in the head with a fist, when you can use a
>palm-heel strike? I think that would go well to the brow ridge, if
>you decided to hit there; I'd go for the nose, myself. If you break it,
>it hurts like hell, plus it provides a nice lever to snap the head back.
>Afteone could toho (sword peak hand - inside edge of thumb
>and index finger) to the throat, then maybe a shuto (knife-edge) strike
>to the jaw or temple, then a good old-fashioned hiji mawashi ate (roundhouse
>elbow strike) to remove the burden of conciousness from their weary mind.
>Note - not one fist strike in the whole sequence.


Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough on my original post,
what I was trying to get across was that it is not wise to choose
your technique in advance. Clearly some targets are easier to hit than
others, but it is important in our training that we learn to choose a
small target and to hit it accurately. It is very easy to say "I hit
this target then that" from the comfort of our keyboards, but the
enemy only has to turn his head slightly and the target we thought
we wanted is not longer viable. Having said that I do see what you
are saying and I do agree that we should practice all types of strike
not just closed fist strikes.


On the subject of Tyson breaking his hand, I didn't see the punch
but I suspect it wasn't a straight rising punch. Enpi Kata will show
you this punch. Just try pushing your thumb up under your eye brow
(not too hard!) a punch there rather than on the boney bit above is
*very* painful and in the cases I've seen usually closes the eye very
quickly.




Bill Burgar.


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts