HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: THE ABORIGINAL GOVERN
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:58:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Erland sez:
))This person is either grossly misinformed, or a big liar. A good
))place to start is Encyclopedia Italiana from around 1930. Under
))the article of Macedonia you find a map which delineates the modern
))geographical region of Macedonia. You will find that it includes
)

So what? Look at the very same encyclopaedia for the borders of:
 Prussia/Germany
 Poland
 Italy
 Romania

And many, many others. What is the relationship of those borders with
today's reality?
We are no talking about the borders 50,70,80 years ago, or even 4,000
years ago (in spite of what some fellow-greeks may have said). We are
talking about the cultural heritage of the true Macedonian people, their
economic and political interest in not being confused with a sad
semblance of a country still run by rennants of Tito's totalitarian
regime, and for the need that Greece has to remove a historical
fraud whos original purpose was to generate claims against Greece.

  Besides, you have repeatedly misstated that Greece wants a say in what
Skopjians call themselves. We do care, but we recognise that we have no
such right. We do have a right, however, to have a say in what "M"s name
is in their embassy in Greece and in the international organisations
where we participate. Don't forget that the Soviets/East Germans
repeatedly blocked the name "German Republic" and "West Germany"
from international forums in the 1950's-80s.

 Finally we do not have a legal say in what other countries call "M",
but we have every right to discuss the issue with these countries, to
explain our position to them, and to politely request that they heed our
concerns. They can then make any decision they like, with complete
understanding of how this will affect their relations with Greece and
Skopjie. Since Greece is not a country of Military or economic might,
there is not issue of Greece forcing anyone to take their sides. The
countries of the world are free to make any decision they want. We are
please that all except 4 of them have so far accepted our requests.
Besides the 12 EEC countries, where one may argue for some Greek
infulence (however flawed these arguements might be), the list of
countries that have not recognised "M" included countries like Kameroon,
Tongo or Trinidad-Tobago that probably do not even have a Greek embassy
on them. Or India, China and Brazil which are probably not dependent on
Greece for more than 0.0000000000001% of their economic activity.
So how has Greece forced these countries to take their side?


Michael.
                         
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8391 soc.culture.turkish:9641
From: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: soc.CULTURE.greek
Keywords: same as before.
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:12:15 GMT
Reply-To: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Organization: Dept of AI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland


             ...and GREEK ATTITUDES.

  Anyone who read this newsgroup has already an opinion about Greeks.
  But I can't resist to mention some of them.

o Ignorants: They don't even know how their cities in Macedonia
  are called in other languages.
o Terribly nationalists. They think they are the only Macedonians
  in the world. What the hell. Such a big world there must be some
  more Macedonians.
o Use effectively the new technologies. They use computers to print
  nationalistic messages in the bus tickets.
o Very bad at economics. They managed to become the poorest country
  in they E.C. 
o Shameless. They don't stop to ask for new funds from their E.C.
  partners.
o Lucky (or good negotiators?) : They managed to be a member of the E.C
  at the first place.
o Blackmailers: They threaten all the other members of the E.C that 
  they will stop exporting their valuable goods unless the recognition
  of Macedonia will be withheld.
o Ungratefull : 18 years passed and no Greek ever thanked the Turks 
  for the stability they brought in Cyprus. Moreover misreading this
  sample of Turkish good will, they keep army in their islands.
o Full of Phobias. Despite their friendly neighbours and the stability  
  in the balkans ( due to wise foreign policy of the E.C ) they are
  constantly under the fear troubles.

o Finally many Greeks like to write articles to support their views,
  and think that they are especially effective when their articles
  contain phrases like "SHUT UP", "CLOSE YOUR MOUTH" and even more 
  "FUCK YOU".

Vagelis Vassiliadis.

PS : I will keep reading this newsgroup. It teaches me a lot about Greeks
     and not only them.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Greek Gods
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 11:43:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.192221.5413@news.lrz-muenchen.de> dranidis@informatik.uni-muenchen.de (Dimitris Dranidis) writes:
>Hello,
>
>Maybe with the whole discussion for Macedonia I'm far away from thema, but...
>
>We are giving our workstations names from the 12 Greek Gods of mythology. I  
>remember only 11 of them:
>
>Zeus, Hera, Athena, 
>Poseidon, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, 
>Ares, Apollo, Hermes, 
>Demeter, Artemis
>
>Can someone remind me the 12th?
>
>Dimitris
>


	Damn I am blind &&^$%&$^% Their it is. I saw it when I typed s.
	George

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8308 soc.culture.europe:7988 soc.culture.turkish:9577
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS (Makes one wonder who the OLD bully was)
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:43:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

>  Well, everyone,

>  I'll be offline for a couple of days (new motherboard, second HD, tape drive
>  plus installing OS/2 2.0 on my machine).

>  Before I go, a temporary farewell:

>  Hasan: Keep that keyboard going fella. P.S. Call up Sasa and ask her for some
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  help in the international affairs department. In the last 2 years they have

   Oops !!  I thought Sasa was a male name .... 

>  Michael.

>---
> . SLMR 2.1a . <Click>
>                                     


-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Decimating The Armenian Population in Anatolia and 'MUT*/Cosar'
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:02:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


 I find it hard to believe that after the thorough discrediting of Mr
Shaws work of fiction by many on this group, M.U.T.L.U. continues to
quote ahead.

<<Those Jews who survived these assaults in Southeastern Europe fled
particularly to Salonica, whose Jewish population increased
substantially
as a result, from 28,000 in 1876 to 90,000 in 1908, more than half the
total population, though even there increased persecution by local
Greeks
led many Jews to flee elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, particularly to
the great port of Izmir.>>

  Mr Shaw must have learned history while in a time warp: He suggest
that Greeks were 'persecuting' Jews in the 1876-1908 period while
Salonica was not even in Greek hands until 1912.

<< practice their religions without hindrance, a law was issued in 1923
<<  which forbad all inhabitants from working on Sunday, stimulating a

  The law did not forbid working onSunday; the law forbid employers from
forcing their employees to work on Sunday, and ordered certain stores
closed on Sundays so that religious store owners would not have to work
to stay competitive. Even if it did what you suggest (Which it did not)
how would it affect Jews, who were not heavily in the retail business?

<<  for use by the new University in order to derive the Jews out [47].
By killing and driving out large numbers of Jews, the Greeks left a
substantial Greek majority in the city for the first time, and
starting Salonica Jewry on the way to its final decimation by the Nazis
during the occupation of Greece starting in 1941.>>

 More fiction. The Jewish community in Greece was thriving until 1941.
References to that have been repeatedly posted to this groups, but your
eyes are whut. In any case, Greeks cannot be held accountable for the
actions of the German/Bulgarian troops during WWII. One tenth of the
Greek population perished during those years, while Turkey was watching
apathetically across the Aegean. Turkey did not join the Allied effort
until April 1945, about the same time as other "allies" such as
Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay.

Michael.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Macedonia EXISTS!
Date: 23 Aug 92 15:43:03 GMT

Yo folks,

Macedonia EXISTS! 

I just came back from the baby store with an infant carrier seat
(baby's due any minute) and noticed the maker:

Century
9600 Valley View Road
Macedonia, OHIO 44056, USA

The seat comes with a (surprisingly) multi-lingual manual in
English, French, and Spanish (sorry, no Macedonian :-))

On a second thought, the net must have a higher relationship with
me than I thought. My wife's doctor is right next to a Dr. Dro.
(as in "mutlu's "friend""). Baby names for both boys and girls end
up (coincidentally) as names of famous net personalities. Now
a car seat made in Macedonia. 

Have I lost it yet? 

Spiros
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: EDUCATION SPECIAL: MAP OF THE WORLD
Date: 23 Aug 92 17:37:57 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

I said in response to Panos:
>> (ii) Greece  in 1988 renamed its northern part Macedonia and Thrace
>
>Hehe, this was a funny one. Wonder where Sasa Koceni got that
>information from. Then again, it was popular for a while to claim
>that Petrovec, the airport of Skopje had been renamed to Alexander
>the Great...

1) Sasa's last name is Konecni, my sincere apologies.

2) If correctly undestand what I read in an article from Micheal
   Polymenakos, Sasa's statement was not taken out of thin air
   as I originally thought. (My 1976 world atlas clearly says
   Makedhonia and Thraki.) However, since it was a case of re-
   verting from a temporary reorganization, it doesn't look like
   a very useful or relevant argument to me.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8253 eunet.politics:1163
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,eunet.politics
Subject: Re: Check out this Bob. [was Re: Macedonia]
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:17:17 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Aug30.153354.21725@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Serfim Efrastiadis (efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu) writes:
>))This person is either grossly misinformed, or a big liar. A good
>))place to start is Encyclopedia Italiana from around 1930. Under
>))the article of Macedonia you find a map which delineates the modern
>))geographical region of Macedonia. You will find that it includes
>))virtually all of The Republic of Macedonia, and even a slice of
>))present-day Kosovo. Curiously, not all of present-day Greek Macedonia
>))is included. To get a understanding of that is not an occasional
>))misinformation, you can check with the French "Le Grand Encyclopdie"
>))from 1900, which gives no map, but a verbal description which is
>))quite consistent with the Italian map. I also recommed trying
>))The Times Atlas of History for the Roman province of Macedonia.
>>
>>The guy is dreaming. The sacred village of Dion for the Ancient Macedons
>>was located at the foot of mount Olympos.
>
>What the hell has ancient village to do with the 19th century
>notion of Maceodnia? Before you write me off as a dreamer, why
>don't you check the sources I gave you? Or you don't dare to
>see you propaganda be grinded into small pieces?

	Do you actually mean to say that Macedonia was moved to
    the North? Can you give us the name of the moving company?
    And how much did it cost? I only have a sofa and a table...

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva


	This post was by

	Georgios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: dranidis@informatik.uni-muenchen.de (Dimitris Dranidis)
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Greek Gods...Thanks for the answers
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:33:28 GMT

Hello,

I've received a lot of answers. In most of them it appears that
Hestia, the Greek goddess of the hearth and chief goddess of domestic 
activity, is the 12th godess.

Some claim it was Hades, Pluto...I've picked up Hestia.

Thank you all,

Dimitris

P.S. There were so many answers, I've even discovered a schoolmate from 
High school.
From: kanagn@ikaros.cc.uch.gr (Kostas Anagnostakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Kill files: rtin ?
Date: 29 Aug 92 12:51:54 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Crete HELLAS
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3


Yparxei tipota antistoixo twn kill files gia ton newsreader 'rtin' ? 

Eyxaristw,
Kostas
From: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: soc.CULTURE.greek
Keywords: history,politics,culture,Macedonia,Greeks,etc,etc.
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:22:36 GMT
Reply-To: vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis)
Organization: Dept of AI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland


	Few weeks ago there was a posting in this newsgroup 
suggesting (more or less ) that the contents of the articles in it 
doesn't justify its name. More specifically the author of that 
artical, originally interested in Greece its culture,history 
and its islands, eventually got sick from reading articles about 
the right or not of the Macedonians to call themselves Macedonias
etc.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: mdd@tyrolia (Marios D. Dikaiakos)
Subject: Vlachs
Organization: Princeton University CS Dept
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:26:55 GMT

In article <4473.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
>
>Erland sez:
>
>>A reasonable definition that Macedonians and Vlachs are not Greeks
>>is that Greek is not their mother tongue. At least in my universe.
>
> Who said that Vlachs are (genetically) Greeks? No-one. Vlachs are Greek
>Citizens and are being treated equally within Greece as such. Proof to

What do you mean ``genetically Greeks''? Who is genetically Greek and
who is not? How can someone say, for instance, that Vlachs are not
genetically Greeks and Maniots are? This is not the point. Even the
fact that Vlachs have their own distinctive dialects, does not say
anything about their national identity: it is a well known fact that
during the Ottoman yoke and for various reasons (from physical disasters
to unsuccessful national uprisings) populations were moving around,
changing their dialect, borrowing elements from other languages, etc.

So, as you correctly point out, what is really important is what Vlachs
considered themselves to be. Unquestionable proofs of their Hellenic
identity were the immigrant communities established by Macedonians (mostly
Vlachs) in Vienna, Boudapest, Belgrade, Bucharest, long before the
greek independence. They built greek churches, greek schools, they fought
for greek independence, they supported the Greek state, and they excelled
in their new homelands (von Karayans, von Economos, Doumbas, and others).

Also, the participation of Vlachs in the Macedonian Fight against the
Bulgarians and the Turks, in late 19th, early 20th century: most of the
local Greeks that fought in this underground war, were Vlachs and slavophones
(the same slavophones that the imposters of Skopie claim to be "Macedonians";
 I don't say though that all slavophones or even grecophones were Greeks and
 joined the Greek side).

Finally, the huge support that Vlachs of Epirus (many of whom had established
thriving greek communities in Alexandria, Egypt and elsewhere) provided to the
Greek state, to establish the first Technical University in Greece, to build
large public buildings, schools, hospitals, to modernize the greek fleet just
before the Balkan wars, etc.


Marios D. Dikaiakos
Princeton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Macedonia: History and Reality
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:20:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>   The St. Peter's Day worldwide Macedonian rally demonstrated
>to the world that the Macedonians are still alive and want
>TO BE... "Alexander the Great is a Macedonian" was the cry of
>one Sydney Macedonian demonstrater: for Alexander lives not only

 Re paidia, pios to'grace ayto; Giati mh moy pei kaneis oti ayta den
ta'grace Ellhnas gia na mas jeshkwsei.... Telws pantwn, opoios kai
na'tan prepei na paradextw oti gia 20 toylaxiston deyterolepta me eixe
mperdecei. Anakatwqhkan ta antera moy mexris na katalabw oti prokeitai
gia 'ek twn esw' doyleia.

 Moy qymhzei kati poy eixe ginei sthn Nea Yorkh prin apo ena xrono.
Kapoios egrace gramma sthn Prwinh pws "O Tsongas mas dyasyrei, as mhn
toy dwsei kaneis xrhmata, klp, klp." Tonnos ta grammata diamarthrias
sthn Prwinh, metajh twn opoiwn kai ena gramma poy egrace o syzhgos ths
baby-sitter toy gioy moy, to opoio dhmosieythke.

 Thn epomenh ths dhmosieyshs, o apostoleas toy prwtoy grammatos
thlefwnhse ton syzygo ths baby-sitter. "Eime o tade", eipe, "alla den
einai ayto to pragmatiko moy onoma. To gramma to egraca gia na jypnhsoyn
oi Ellhnes, kai ayto to katafera. Eyxaristw gia thn apanthsh sas".

 Telws pantwn. Fobamai monon oti kai oi jenoi qa katalaboyn oti o
apostoleas einai ellhnas, giati einai ta grafwmena ejwfrenhka, kai poly
wma grammena se sygkrysh me to styl ths sasas kai twn allwn bardaridwn
poy einai kapws eklktikoi sto ti lene, opws kai oloi oi swstoi
paraplhroforites.


Mixalhs.
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: soc.CULTURE.greek
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:29:00 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

Suggested solutions. Have a group called soc.culture.hellenic where
politics was not allowed? Set up a group called soc.culture.Macedonia or
how about soc.culture.(not?)Macedonia just to keep everyone happy.

Andy
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:59:48 GMT
	<1992Aug28.223506.261@cs.wisc.edu> <1992Aug30.110135.16578@enea.se>
	<1992Sep2.191432.4412@cs.wisc.edu>
	<MACRAKIS.92Sep3115312@next4.osf.org>
	<1992Sep3.183104.10550@cs.wisc.edu>
Organization: OSF Research Institute

I said that civil servants in Vlachophone villages could make some
effort to learn the local language, Vlach traditions could be taught
in schools, etc.  I also said that Greece is no better or worse than
most other European countries in this respect.

In article <1992Sep3.183104.10550@cs.wisc.edu>
schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas) replied:

   Come on, give me a break! Do civil servants in Crete speak cretan,
   in Ionian islands the local (heavily influenced by italian) dialect,
   etc.

As you know, Yanni, Cretan and Ionian dialects are very close to
standard Greek.  Vlach is not.

   Modern Greek were established out of the need of the newly founded
   state to have a common language.

I have no problem with this.  All I said was that local officials
could make `some effort' to be accomodating.

   In modern states, you cannot have 100 different dialects taught at
   public schools. Local dialects are nowadays more of a matter of
   cultural clubs than public education.

I guess France is no longer a modern state.  After all, until a few
years ago, children were punished for using local languages or
dialects in school.  But now, Corsican (Italian dialect), Occitan
(Provencal), Breton (Celtic language), Lorrain (German dialect), and
Dutch are taught in the public schools in those regions.

We then brought up the issue of the origin of the Vlachs.  Schoinas
says:

   Actually, there was a recent series of articles in Eleytherotypia
   about the origins and culture of the vlachs. This was supposed to be
   the most widely accepted one. 

My reference was works on Romance philology.  Your reference is a
newspaper article.  I tend to believe the former rather than the
latter.

   ...I am not sure how widely accepted is the theory of the romanian
   descent of the vlachs outside the romanian cycles.

By philological evidence, Greek Vlach dialects are closely related to
certain Rumanian dialects.  Thus it seems unlikely that they evolved
independently since Roman times.  You asserted that Greek Vlach and
Rumanian are as distantly related as French and Italian; this
contradicts everything I've read on Romance philology (mostly by
Western European and North American scholars, not Romanians!).

	-s
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: soc.CULTURE.greek
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:05:27 GMT
Keywords: history,politics,culture,Macedonia,Greeks,etc,etc.

vagelis@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Vagelis Vassiliadis) writes:

>	Few weeks ago there was a posting in this newsgroup 
>suggesting (more or less ) that the contents of the articles in it 
>doesn't justify its name. More specifically the author of that 
>artical, originally interested in Greece its culture,history 
>and its islands, eventually got sick from reading articles about 
>the right or not of the Macedonians to call themselves Macedonias
>etc.

 Totally agree.  So, what do we do now?  Any ideas?

-- 
---> Panos Tamamidis
     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu
Subject: To Erland, yours Macedonically, Max. [Re: Check out this Bob.]
Originator: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu
Organization: NU
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 14:03:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.111817.16994@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu - who sign his articles "Max" but whose
>signature and username makes me believe that it is our favourite
>doctor, Serafim Efrastiadis (with reservation for the spelling) -
>writes:

Buzzz! Wrong again, sweetie! It's not the doc but his nurse, thank you
pretty much. I use his account because he is on secret mission in Skopje
spying for the GIA (Greek Intelligence Agency - but you knew that, right?).

Last time I spoke to him, he asked me to say `Hi' to ya personally he also:
Y O U R   D A Y S   A R E   N U M B E R E D   E R L A N D!

What a chap! Incredible!

>-- 
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva

Yours Macedonically,

Max.
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