From: refson@castle.ed.ac.uk (Keith Refson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Book Review "The Homosexalities"
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:12:23 GMT
Reply-To: keith@earth.ox.ac.uk
Organization: Oxford University

Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:

>Nope, actually there are lots of books like this, and it looks like the
>consensus of the scientific/medical community

Excuse me, but just what do you imagine that Freudian (or any other for
that matter) psychoanalysis has to do with either science or medicine.
In most scientific circles psychoanalysis is regarded as being based
on the same level of scientific evidence and having similar
credibility to, say, astrology.  To anyone who hasn't read it, I
recommend Eysenck's "Decline and Fall of the Freudian Empire" in which
he convincingly debunks the whole enterprise.  Read with caution of
course, considering some of his other, more dubious, writings.

> unafraid to be non-PC is that
>homosexuality can be changed in some cases, or problems treated, and taht

But psychoanalysis has long since given up any claims to "cure"
*anything at all* (in case some anal-retentive scientist with
unresolved childhood personality conflicts manages to impress
non-psychoanalysts ignorant of his deeply neurotic motivation by
having the presumption to ask for evidence).

And if, instead, you wish to consider *scientific* opinion, the one
thing that can be said for sure is that there is no consensus.  The
recent experiments showing a correlation between certain brain
structures and male homosexuality don't hold out a lot of hope for a
psychiatric "cure".

>There was a guy on Today who said that there
>are no cases of psychological homosexuality. Evidently, he's not aware of
>actual medical or scientific facts.

How can one argue with a citation of such impeccable scientific
respectability as Today? :-)

>It does mean that any talk that gays
>are statistically and psychologically just like anybody else is pure bunk
>for anyone that bothers to dig in the facts (as is drug use and
>promiscuity). Any bunch that simply throws away all relevant facts and then
>stands on no supporting evidence in my mind has some problems.

This is a lesson that you could profitably learn yourself, Arthur.
Cheap bookshops are full of pseudo-scientific drivel written by
somebody claiming an MD or PhD.  That does *not* make it part of the
body of scientific knowledge which has achieved sufficient consensus
to be considered reliable.  Much of such stuff is driven by some
non-scientific agenda, and practises the scant respect for evidence
that you so rightly condemn.  

If you intend to make claims about the scientific consensus, then I
respectfully suggest that you educate yourself a little more about
what is science and what isn't.  You could do worse than starting by
learning the difference between psychiatry ( a medical disipline),
psychology (a scientific disipline) and psychoanalysis (a
psuedo-science). 

Another thing to learn is that all sources are not equally reliable.
Many dubious claims are advanced in the name of science, mostly by
authors who covet the good name and respectability accorded to
scientific knowledge but without employing the methods and scrutiny
which make scientific knowledge reliable and gave it the good name in
the first place.  There is no substitute for critical reading. If you
want to get closer to the truth, that is, rather than simply looking
for confirmation of some pre-conceived belief.  Anybody who cites
"Today" as equivalent to the peer-reviewed scientific literature, in
my mind has some problems.

Keith Refson

> "Everyone in New York has an analyst.  He's just somebody
> you go to to talk about your problems".
> "Don't you have mates?"
> -- Crocodile Dundee  
> (If anyone can get me the correct version of this quote, I'd be
grateful)

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